B a y l o r Un i v e r s i t y I n s t i t u t e f o r O ra l H i s t o r y

Copyright 2010

Oral Memoir Excerpts

of

Howard Herbert Matthies

and

Olefa Koerth Matthies

A Series of Interviews Conducted by

Thomas Lee Charlton Deborah J. Hoskins

Thad Sitton Dan K. Utley

December 20, 1991 – December 2, 1994

Family Life and Community History Project

Bay lor Univ e rs i t y Ins t i tu t e f o r Oral His to ry

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Table of Contents

Baylor University Institute for Oral History General Policy and Purposes ........................ iv

Memoir Procedure ....................................................................................................................... iv

Legal Status ................................................................................................................................... iv

Interview History .......................................................................................................................... v

Project Detail ................................................................................................................................. v

Interview Number 1 (December 20, 1991) ............................................................................... 1

Interview Number 2 (January 22, 1992) .................................................................................. 70

Interview Number 3 (February 12, 1992).............................................................................. 118

Interview Number 4 (October 29, 1992) .............................................................................. 168

Interview Number 5 (September 9, 1994) ............................................................................. 222

Interview Number 6 (October 13, 1994) .............................................................................. 260

Interview Number 7 (December 2, 1994) ............................................................................. 282

Index ........................................................................................................................................... 316

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General Policies and Procedures A member of the Oral History Association, the Baylor University Institute for Oral History (BUIOH) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and standards of archival quality prescribed by the national professional association to ensure long-term preservation of memoirs. It is the policy of BUIOH to select memoirists whose recollections, as participants or eyewitnesses, are relevant to the institute’s chosen research topics. Their recorded memoirs provide links between the immediate past and the present in a very human way. A scholarly but relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during the interview. To encourage completely candid recollections, the memoirist is asked to regard the oral history memoir as a highly personal journal. The transcribed historical document which the finished memoir becomes is the raw material used by historians and professional scholars.

In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the memoirist and interviewer must sign a deed of gift agreement. Generally this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history archives of The Texas Collection at Baylor University for historical and academic research and public dissemination. The memoirist may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing the memoir until a specified date.

Memoir Procedure 1. Initial contact with the memoirist 2. Arrangements made for interview(s) 3. Recording of interview(s) 4. Transcribing of recording in the BUIOH office 5. Editing of transcript(s) by memoirist 6. Finished memoirs: one transcript for the memoirist, one transcript and recording for the

Texas Collection. The finished typewritten oral memoir follows the interviewee’s stated wishes as reflected in his/her editing of the first transcript(s), with only minor further editorial modifications performed in the BUIOH office in preparing the completed memoir.

Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interviews with Howard Herbert Matthies and Olefa Koerth Matthies is unrestricted. The deed of gift agreement was signed on December 20, 1991.

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Interview History The recordings and transcripts of the interviews were processed in the offices of the Institute for Oral History, Baylor University, Waco, Texas.

Interviewers: Thomas Lee Charlton Deborah J. Hoskins Thad Sitton Dan K. Utley Transcribers: Peggy Kinard Robert LaVohn Kristen Lopez Nancy Swint Editors: Kelly Allen Deborah Chen Deborah J. Hoskins John Jurgensmeyer Kelli Stott Eric Waters Final editor: Deborah Chen

Project Detail The Family Life and Community History Project of the Baylor University Institute for Oral History includes studies in social history, with particular emphasis on rural life.

Thomas Lee Charlton was director of the Baylor University Institute for Oral History and later vice provost for research, Baylor University.

Deborah J. Hoskins was a postdoctoral fellow, Baylor University Institute for Oral History.

Thad Sitton was an independent historian and writer in Austin, Texas.

Dan K. Utley was a visiting oral historian, Baylor University Institute for Oral History.

The books, From Can See to Can’t: Texas Cotton Farmers on the Southern Prairies, by Thad Sitton and Dan K. Utley (Austin, TX: University of Texas Press, 1997), and Freedom Colonies: Independent Black Texas in the Time of Jim Crow, by Thad Sitton and James H. Conrad (Austin, TX: University of Texas Press, 2005), include material from this oral memoir.

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H. Matthies Yeah, Eve dinner.

Charlton Uh-huh. Did you ever have anything like that over at your house?

O. Matthies Yes. I think we cooked that sometimes, but not very often.

Charlton Then that was a fairly common dish down in this area, for instance.

H. Matthies Yeah. When they butchered hogs, they used to make blood sausage. We, at our house—Papa Matthies never was a favorite of that blood sausage, but Grandpa Krause—he had to have that blood sausage. But we made—everybody made hog head sausage, and then—

Charlton That’s hog’s head sausage?

H. Matthies Yeah, uh-huh. They’d clean the whole hog and grind up the ears, and trim off the meat from the snoot, and then some of the bone, meat, and so forth. And then they’d make that, and put onion and garlic in there, and then cook it in the big intestines. Then you could eat it cold, or if—some smoked it. You sliced it off and made you a sandwich from that. There was nothing wasted, I told you, except the squeal. (all laugh)

Charlton You brought up a subject a few minutes ago that I was going to get to, and I want to raise it now just because so many places in the United States were affected by World War I. In 1917, the United States declared war. The United States was not the first nation to be in the war; the war had been going on since 1914. And I wanted to ask you how the communities where each of you lived was affected by the war, because you lived in German-American communities, and there were very special feelings. A lot of Americans who did not understand German-American people were very upset during that time. What was it like in your community, Mrs. Matthies, when you heard that the United States was at war with Germany?

O. Matthies I don’t remember it. I just can’t remember anything about that.

Charlton It was 1917 and ’18.

O. Matthies Uh-huh. I—that’s too long ago.

H. Matthies Well, your brother-in-law—

O. Matthies Yes.

H. Matthies —he was called to the service.

Charlton I was going to ask, did anybody serve in the war?

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O. Matthies Yeah, brother-in-law.

Charlton Your brother-in-law.

O. Matthies Otto Boehnemann.

Charlton Okay. So he was called into the army or the navy?

O. Matthies Yes, the army. He was in the army.

Charlton What about over in your area?

H. Matthies Well, I can tell you stories that—

Charlton I know you were a young child, but—

H. Matthies I can remember just like today—that—when my uncles were called into service. Two of them, Robert and Albert—they were called into service. And Albert went to Panama. They had to guard down in Panama. And Robert didn’t get any farther than San Antonio.

But the feeling in the community here—it was in the town of Burton—see, Mother never spoke English, but she could read and write English. But she wouldn’t dare speak it. And so she wouldn’t come to town except to go to George Foehner; Foehner and Draeger had a store. They were German. I don’t know whether she slipped in at Watson’s, too. They were German-Americans over here. But you had to watch what you were saying, so they didn’t know that you were German. And then it became a hatred, kind of like. Everybody had to buy Liberty Bonds. You heard that?

Charlton Oh, yes, yes.

H. Matthies Liberty Bonds. And if you didn’t buy your quota, it was bad.

Charlton Your family bought some Liberty Bonds?

H. Matthies Oh, yes. And the Krause family bought bonds. Everybody had a sign in the window if you bought Liberty Bonds.

Now, over here in Burton, they poured paint over an old gentleman. He’s dead a good while already. It was the doctor that probably saved his life. They led him—had a rope around his neck, and led him through town with paint over him. And then Dr. [Oliver] Moore was a doctor. He lived right there where Muehlbrads got that brick house and that big sta—and he got out of his house. He had his office in the house, and he went out there with his revolver, and he says, “You turn that man loose—otherwise, I’m going to kill so-and-so many of you.” Then they turned him loose.

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Dr. [R. H.] Lenert in Brenham—he was a German immigrant here, too. He was an—eye doctor. They tarred and feathered him. And there was a tension of—that they were not doing their part. And that was all unreal, you might say.

Charlton Do you remember any of that tension?

O. Matthies Yes, I remember that, you know.

Charlton Tell us, what do you remember, Mrs. Matthies?

O. Matthies My mother would always say—you know, we had—on a Saturday night my sister could play the organ—not the one that helped me; that was another sister. She played the organ, and we would sing. And then my mother would come in. She said, “Don’t sing German songs! Whatever you do, don’t sing—otherwise, they might come and get us.” And I can remember that.

Charlton Who was they?

O. Matthies Well, it was some people that were—I don’t think it was Ku Klux Klan.

Charlton But your mother was worried about this.

O. Matthies Yes. She wouldn’t let us sing no German songs.

Charlton Uh-huh. Now, what about just your everyday conversations in the home? In what language did all of your family members talk all day long?

O. Matthies Well, we talked German—uh-huh—with my mother, especially.

Charlton German was the first language you learned, then?

H. Matthies Yeah.

O. Matthies Yes.

Charlton And you also—

H. Matthies Our daughter, too. (laughs)

Charlton Okay. All right. And anything else, Mrs. Matthies, that you remember about that atmosphere, during the war, here on the home front? (bells chime)

O. Matthies No.

Charlton Did you ever come—do you remember coming into Burton and being aware of the tension in the town?

O. Matthies No, I don’t remember. I believe I didn’t come to Burton then.

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Charlton Mr. Matthies, how did you hear about the tension in Burton?

H. Matthies Well, that was a conversation at home. You see, Daddy would go to town. He’d bring the news back, and then it traveled from neighbor to neighbor, you know. People were neighborly. What one neighbor knew, the next neighbor, too, you know. And they went over to visit the neighbors. And so we knew about the fellow here in Burton was tarred and feathered, and Dr. Lenert over there. So we were very—that’s why I say Mother wouldn’t hardly come to town—maybe once a year or so, and she was very careful what she was—to whom she was speaking.

Charlton Was there much—you said there was conversation in the family about these things. Was there much conversation about the war itself?

H. Matthies Yes. Well, these fellows—there was Kaiser Wilhelm, you know—understand. They weren’t for Kaiser Wilhelm, these people. They knew—Grandpa Matthies left Germany on account of the Franco-Per—Ger—

Charlton —Franco-Prussian War.

H. Matthies —War. You know.

Charlton In the 1870s.

H. Matthies In the early seventies. He skipped the country when he was supposed to—he had military training before. But then he—he was married and he skipped the country. He came to America, and that was the first—

Charlton Did your family still have any relatives in Germany that it kept in touch with?

H. Matthies No, we never had any of Matthies or Krause or Pollei that were—

Charlton Some German-American families still had relatives.

H. Matthies Yeah. They have contact with them.

Charlton What about on your side, Mrs. Matthies?

O. Matthies I don’t have any there.

Charlton So there were no letters going to Europe from your family?

O. Matthies No. Unh-uh.

Charlton That you recall?

O. Matthies No.

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H. Matthies No. Unh-uh.

Charlton Okay. Well, I’m just asking about things that people talked about all over the United States.

H. Matthies Oh, yeah.

Charlton Here in Texas in the German communities there were special tensions, and that’s why—I hope you can help us reconstruct this a little bit.

H. Matthies Yeah, the tension was they were afraid that these German people would sabotage—well, do some of those things to harm the real American families. But there was never none. These Germans here were so glad to be in America—free. And there was nothing like that.

But they were all there—that whole community. A lot of them went into France from here and fought in France in the world war. And I can remember in 19—when the war was over, when we found out about it, they turned school out in Boundary. I didn’t go to school, yet, that day. My youngest uncle—he’s dead already—he got on the fence post—

Charlton —on Armistice Day.

H. Matthies —yeah, Armistice Day, and made a speech that the war was over and now we were free. (all laugh)

Utley Was there a feeling that the leaders in Germany didn’t represent the German people?

H. Matthies That was the whole problem. Now, if you cut that thing off, I’ll tell you why in World War II—cut it off there.

pause in recording

Charlton Okay, we’re back on. We’ve taken a phone call and a short break. And we were talking about the end of World War I, Mr. and Mrs. Matthies. And you were talking about how you remembered it ended at your school, Mr. Matthies. Do you remember the end of the war, too, Mrs. Matthies?

O. Matthies World War I?

Charlton Uh-huh.

O. Matthies No, I don’t.

H. Matthies I remember.

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O. Matthies I can’t. He’s got a memory like I don’t know what.

H. Matthies So—

Charlton Well, you have a fine memory. So you’re doing fine, too.

H. Matthies See, Robert Krause was in San Antonio at Kelly Air Base. You know, they had Kelly Field at that time.

Charlton Kelly Field.

H. Matthies Yeah. And so you didn’t hear nothing about being discharged, you know, any time you going to get discharged. So Robert Krause got on the train in San Antonio, came to Burton, and then he walked home with his pack, and he slipped in the house. Grandpa and Grandma Matthies [Krause?] didn’t know that he was home. And he slipped upstairs—he pulled off his shoes and slipped upstairs, and next morning went in to Grandpa and Grandma Matthies and said, “It’s time to get up.” And they liked to fainted.

Charlton Was there a special family celebration when he was home?

H. Matthies Yes. Of course, then all the brothers and sisters went over there and whatnot. And all that was so wonderful. But Albert came back home. He was in Panama; he came home later.

Charlton Something else that happened during World War I that I want to ask you about—was a very tragic situation that occurred in a lot of communities where people became very ill with the flu. To what extent did—the flu epidemic of 1918 is what it was. To what extent did it come into this area?

O. Matthies I don’t remember.

H. Matthies I know—what you call—I lost two cousins that died of the flu in 1918. And everybody dreaded that word, flu. But in our community in which we lived, there was nothing serious about the flu. But it was down in this area towards north, northwest of Burton. There was quite a bit—there were about three or four people died. The Roemers, you know, died. Some—Grandpa—

Charlton What other common—let’s just take Washington County, for example. How hard was Washington County hit by the flu that year?

H. Matthies I—there was—

Charlton What did you hear later about that?

H. Matthies There wasn’t too many—there was—somebody here from Burton died. I know somebody in Burton died. But there were—the flu really didn’t have a

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big influx on this society, in this area, that I know of. But I know in an area over at Round Top—that there—my aunt was living over there. There were quite a few people that got the flu and died.

Charlton Okay. Okay. That brings up the whole subject of health care and how people took care of themselves, and how they got doctors and medicines and things like that. Maybe we ought to make this our last topic for today, but let’s talk a little bit about the way in which people received medical care when they were sick, or the kinds of health care you had. What happened when somebody got sick in your family, Mrs. Matthies?

O. Matthies Well, most of the time, we went, really, before we got real sick. Is that what you—

Charlton You—what do you mean, you went?

O. Matthies Went to the doctor—

Charlton Oh, I see.

O. Matthies —before we—we knew we were sick, but we weren’t real sick.

Charlton Okay, let’s turn our tape over and then we’ll ask about what kind of help you got.

Tape 2, side 2 ends; tape 3, side 1 begins.

Charlton Okay. You said you would probably go to the doctor before you were extremely sick?

O. Matthies That’s right.

Charlton How far was a doctor?

O. Matthies Oh, that was—we had to go here to Dr. Southern, to Burton.

H. Matthies No, Southern wasn’t there in World War II—at that time. No, you have to go back—Dr. Hodde came here.

O. Matthies Hodde was—

H. Matthies But before that, we had Dr. Ziess and Dr. Moore.

O. Matthies Well, I don’t know about those. (H. Matthies laughs)

Charlton Well, what doctors do you remember?

H. Matthies You remember Dr. Hodde.