orkut debates: the false fetal science of quran

8/14/2019 Orkut Debates: The False Fetal Science of Quran

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QURANIC SCIENCE OF FOETAL DEVELOPMENTMuslim - Hindu Dialogueyashwant.IITR[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=16320656254942062240]QURANIC SCIENCE OF FOETAL DEVELOPMENT

QURAN [22:5] O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we createdyou from dust, and subsequently from a tiny drop, which turns into a hanging (embryo), then itbecomes a fetus that is given life or deemed lifeless. We thus clarify things for you. We settle inthe wombs whatever we will for a predetermined period. We then bring you out as infants, thenyou reach maturity. While some of you die young, others live to the worst age, only to find outthat no more knowledge can be attained beyond a certain limit. Also, you look at a land that isdead, then as soon as we shower it with water, it vibrates with life and grows all kinds ofbeautiful plants.

Sahih Al Bukhari, 4/3332: Narrated 'Abdullh radhi-yAllhu 'anhu]: Allh's Messenger , the trueand truly inspired, said: "(As regards your creation) every one of you is collected in the womb ofhis mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for another forty days, and then a

piece of flesh for another forty days. Then Allh sends an angel to write four words: He writeshis deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed(in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into his body. So a man may do deeds characteristicof the people of the (Hell) Fire, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between himand it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses; and so he starts doing deedscharacteristic of the people of Paradise and enters Paradise.A FEW QUESTIONS FROM AN ARYA SAMAJIDear alim- e- deen

1. what is the definition of atma / rooh/soul in the quran.2. if it is not defined in quran , then which book do the muslims follow for the knowledge aboutatma. e.g. taurat , zaboor , injeel, vedas , gita....3. allah causes the soul to be breathed into the foetus on the 121st day . how does the foetus growwithout a soul.4. does it grow for 120 days due to its mother's soul?5. does the mother's soul leave its body when the new soul is inserted

further,a. allah causes the deeds of the infant to be written, which implies that everything is'PREDETERMINED'b. who is to be blamed or praised for the deeds of man : allah or man ?????

again

allah has already decided who will go to zahannum . then why all this hullabulla???NamasteKashif [http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=1500646188310345425]first u scientifically proove existance of soul (if u proove it u will definately get a nobel) ....

according to medical science a foetus is said to be alive after 4 months i.e around 120 days...that's why abortion is illegal after 4 months of pregnancy....


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according to quran also foetus is alive after 4 months (allah causes the soul to be breathed intothe foetus on the 121st day )....remember.....do u know why such a precise statement???? bcoz it's a book of god, unadultrated..... while godallowed all his books to be changed, he preserved his last book in the original form so that pplmay read it and accept the truth....Sanaul[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=4028672625952590531]Good explanation kashif..ALI[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=12959227717624277063]HI MR.IITian...how r uu?? howz life...howz it going man??by the way forgot....http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htmRushikeshkashifSo is there concept of soul in islam or not?If yes,explain it please.Saleel[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=17853950941859285780]Brothers Yashwant and Rushikesh,

The word soul can have varied interpretations - 1) the "spirit" which keeps all organisms alive,and 2) the "self/personality" which determines the character of a person - making him/her a goodor bad being.

In Islamic terminology, the former is called "Ruh" and the latter "Nafs". The word "Ruh" is usedin the Qur'an in verses such as :

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And Hegave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do yegive!" [32:9]

Since Ruh is a term generic to all beings and it is the purification of the Nafs which is moreimportant to us humans and which will finally decide our fate in the hereafter, there are morereferences to the Nafs in the Qur'an:

"By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; And its enlightenment as to its wrong andits right. Truly he succeeds that purifies it, And he fails that corrupts it!" [91:7-10]

"But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is nodoubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?"[3:25]

"That Allah may requite each soul according to its deserts; and verily Allah is swift in calling to

account." [14:51]

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. toUs must ye return." [21:35]

Ahadith such as Sahih Muslim : 33:6423-9 state that we are all born in a state of Fitrah or purity,in other words our Nufoos (plural of Nafs) are just like a clean state to begin with. Our beliefsand actions during our lifetime decides what we ultimately become.
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htmhttp://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htm


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True, we are not given much knowledge of the "spirit" - the Ruh, and Allah instructs Muslimsnot to delve too much on it, since its knowledge is not going to benefit us anyway. What mattersmore is how we refine our Nafs and make ourselves worthy of Allah's pleasure.

"And they ask you about the Ruh. Say: The Ruh is one of the commands of my Lord, and you arenot given aught of knowledge but a little." [17:85]

[P.S : The Ruh in the above verse has also been interpreted to refer to the Spirit of Inspiration,but in both cases it refers to something of which we are given little knowledge, and something onwhich are not to waste too much time since it is not a useful information for us].

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Brother Defender,

The verse means that a small portion (we are not told how much) of Allah's spirit has beenbreathed into the soul of human beings, in other words, there is some Godliness in all of us....

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Allah knows best...

Thanks and peace....

Soheb[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=18086808620141889211]saleel brothernice explanation

jazak allah broDefender[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=9499020099096379756]Saleel"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And Hegave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do yegive!" [32:9]

need a little elboration,before I (mis)interpreteSaleelThe following link gives some useful information :http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1169972921136

Brother Yashwant,"Then Allh sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means ofhis livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in the Hereafter)."

This simply means that even before a child is born, Allah has complete information of its actionsduring its lifetime and its fate in the Hereafter, NOT that Allah has decided all these things forhim/her. That would be against the concept of free will. One of the verses quoted earlier is :
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1169972921136http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1169972921136http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1169972921136http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1169972921136


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""But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there is nodoubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?"[3:25]

So each soul earns what it has EARNED, not something which has been thrust upon it. Further,please note that the very purpose of sending revelations and messengers to earth are to instructand guide mankind [e.g. 2:185, 16:64]. If everyone's fate is predetermined, why would Allahbother to send these?

Thanks and peace...DefenderSaleelThe verse means that a small portion (we are not told how much) of Allah's spirit has beenbreathed into the soul of human beings, in other words, there is some Godliness in all of us....

Anything except allah's spirit?Saleel

Brother Defender,As mentioned above, we are not given much details of the "nature of our soul" (since it its naturedoesn't really affect how we obey Allah and perform our duties), rather we are given clearinstructions on how to purify our nafs and make ourselves worthy of Allah's Grace. But Allahdoes tell us that He has created us in the best possible form [95:4] and in a state of Fitrah(purity). Essentially, we all have some good in us, as symbolised by a little of Allah's Spirit beinginfused into us. What we ought to do with ourselves in order to remain good and be grateful toAllah is what Islam teaches us.

Thanks...offline yashwant.IITRkashif,sanaul and aliaccording to medical science & quran a foetus is said to be alive after 4 months i.e around 120days.

Interpretation of medical science: the foetus starts movements like kicking, etc after 120 days.

my Qs are still unanswered------try this one

Q3. how does the foetus grow for 120 days without a soul/rooh ?

Kashifhow does the foetus grow for 120 days without a soul/rooh ?that's why i asked u to scientifically proove existance of soul....soul has nothing to do with science.... show me one accepted scientific paper which says it'snecessary for every lump of flesh to have soul.....

try this one....proove that foetus can't grow without soul....yashwant.IITR


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SALEELcompare

(A) "But how (will they fare) when we gather them together against a day about which there isno doubt, and each soul will be paid out just what it has earned, without (favour or) injustice?"[3:25]

(B) 002.058SHAKIR: And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever youwish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you yourwrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------in ayat A : allah is just .

In ayat B : allah is forgiving wrong , giving MORE to the good .this is without correlation to karma / deeds and therefore injustice !

Could u please enumerate the wrongs , which will be forgiven. and how will the reward beincreased ? e.g. if i give 1 roti to my neighbour ; what will allah give me ?

If allah and p Mohammed did not know about the rooh or soul or atma , then one should notconclude that knowledge about a conscious entity whose power is 2nd to god in this universe isworthless.

this is not expected from men of stature like u .

Namasteyashwant.IITRKashifif there is no soul for 120 days ;then the foetus was dead for 120 days and yet , growing .how will u explain this paradox of dead foetus which grows .does anyone need science to prove that a dead foetus does not grow ?Kashif@yashwantI bet ur IQ must be less than 20.....

proove that foetus is dead without soul...DefenderSaleel

So can we say mankind is nothing but portion of allah's spirit?Defenderkashifaccording to medical science a foetus is said to be alive after 4 months i.e around 120 days...that's why abortion is illegal after 4 months of pregnancy....according to quran also foetus is alive after 4 months (allah causes the soul to be breathed intothe foetus on the 121st day )....


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1.Whats the definition of life,as per medical science?2.Can we say the reason of life is allah's spirit?3.Abortion is illegal after 20 weeks,not 4 months.DefenderKashifproove that foetus is dead without soul...

Refer ur words regarding foetus and medical science.Almost forgot.Any reference/proof regarding medical science claim?sohebyashwant /defendermedical science have lote of things to discover yet......................

so once cant tell that science have make a complet studies on human n natureKarthik[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=599117510930383844]^^ Agreed..Lets all understand that GOD is bigger than Science.Else, let science achieve the featof immortality, for starters

[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=13191025839643488701] watchAccording to Quran and Sunnah, each of the first three stages of pregnancy, namely the nutfa,the alaqa, and the mudgha. The nutfa is probably a stage of zygote, the alaqa is when the embryoclings to the wall of the womb, and the mudgha, is when the embryo assumes the shape of achewed substance.I want you to go through this website.http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-a.htmThree stages are specified here..Nutfah: Mixed drop of male and female sexual discharge.(sperm and ovum)Alaqah: 3 meaningsa) Leech b) a suspended thing c) blood clot.-To make u better understand, the embryo is nothing but a blood clot there. No BODY ispresent what so ever. You can say that it is just another part of the womb.-You can go through the figures in the website to get a better idea.-It is a blood clot in which there is no blood flow either.watchOnly after the first 120 days of pregnancy does Allah send the angel that breathes the spirit orsoul (ruh) into the human body, and consequently it becomes a true human being.

The presence of human life or personhood is identified with the presence of the soul in humanbeing. The fact that ones heart is beating is not indicative of ones vitality, nor is it proof of theexistence of his soul. This can be better explained in the cases of a body whose life is ended, butthe heart may still be beating but the brain stem is diagnosed as dead.

(I have personal experience regarding this as my fathers partner was declared dead by thedoctors even though his heart was still beating but brain wasnt working. When suggested by therelatives, the doctors kept the body under inspection for 7-10 days I think, but to no avail. Hewas then cremated.).

The embryo does not acquire the effects of being human from its very first creation, this happensonly after 120 days of pregnancy have lapsed. From a medical point of view, the presence of ruhis marked by voluntary movements of fetus in the womb.


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watchFor further informationSource1: http://www.babycentre.co.uk/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment/18weeks/"Week 18: Your baby is approximately 6 inches/ 14.2 centimetres long from crown to rump andshe weighs about 7 ounces/ 190 grams. Her chest moves up and down to mimic breathing butshe's not taking in air, only amniotic fluid".Exactly after 120 days as the hadiths stated.Source2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fetal_development#developmentWeek 18 (i.e 120 days)The lanugo covers the entire body. Eyebrows, eyelashes, fingernails, and toenails appear. Thefetus has increased muscle development. Alveoli (air sacs) are forming in lungs. The nervoussystem develops enough to control some body functions. The cochlea are now developed, thoughthe myelin sheaths in the neural portion of the auditory system will continue to develop until 18months after birth. The respiratory system has developed to the point where gas exchange ispossible.From the above 2 sources it is clear that the chest moves up and down to mimic breathing.Karthik

(I have personal experience regarding this as my fathers partner was declared dead by thedoctors even though his heart was still beating but brain wasnt working. When suggested by therelatives, the doctors kept the body under inspection for 7-10 days I think, but to no avail. Hewas then cremated.).

In which country was this???

This man is not even dead, if his heart is still beating..That is like killing a sleeping manyashwant.IITRKashifI bet u don't have an IQ at allprove that fetus is alive without soul...........................................................................................................................................when we study the expert opinion; we find that the heart - beat of an unborn child starts as earlyas 22 days.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_the_heartbeat_of_a_baby_start_in_the_womb]"The human heart begins to beat and pump blood through the embryo around day 22 ofgestation.(http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:Z2Mz7QaWoOEJ:www.sciforums.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D51013+when+does+the+heart+of+a+foetus+start+beating%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=in&client=firefox-a)and can be seen beating on an ultrasound scan in the 5th week/35th day[http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:DK9A9DktYKcJ:www.askbaby.com/foetal-

development.htm+when+does+the+heart+of+a+foetus+start+beating%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=in&client=firefox-a].furtherDr. Aarti Sahni - Gynaecologist (MBBS, DGO) specialized in Obstetrics & Gynaecology saysthat :One can pick up the fetal heart beat as early as 10 weeks with a doppler soniket and can visualizeit on sonography as early as 7 weeks( 49th day). It can be heard by a stethoscope not before 24weeks.


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[http://www.indiaparenting.com/faqs/pregnancy_baby/foetal_heartbeat.shtml]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q to the alim e deenHow does the heart beat without the presence of soul ( after the 49th day of gestation)?PS= go and ask dr zakir naik. I can wait for the correct answer.namasteyashwantarya samajDefenderSohebmedical science have lote of things to discover yet......................so once cant tell that science have make a complet studies on human n natureWell,just tell me what I am supposed to do?Use logic and science or keep both aside.Just dont change stance with issues.All our logic is wasted with ramayana and mahabharata,whatever left is dedicated to faultfindings in vedic beleifs and questioning rebirth theories.

So when Qu'ran comes,we are left with none.Not even to acknowledge part science hasdiscovered and infer from the info.Either critically evaluate everything or leave everything as faith.No double standards.DefenderAejazThe presence of human life or personhood is identified with the presence of the soul in humanbeing. The fact that ones heart is beating is not indicative of ones vitality, nor is it proof of theexistence of his soul. This can be better explained in the cases of a body whose life is ended, butthe heart may still be beating but the brain stem is diagnosed as dead.

My dear freind,I expect medical science point of view with references.Not islamicwebsite.Viewpoint of qu'ran is given by yashwant here,if you find it wrong,post correct one withreferences.sohebdefenderthere is lot of thing to be confirm in future

u and me doesn,t required sceince to prove our faithDefenderSohebthere is lot of thing to be confirm in future

u and me doesn,t required sceince to prove our faith

foetal development is not part of our faith,neither mine,nor urs.Nor our faith is going to shatterjust because some physical phenomenon is given wrong in scripture.Ur faith is not regarding foetal development,brother.Its about allah's commandments,and I amsure allah is going to ask u about how u behaved,whether u followed his commands.He wont askyou for sure why u dont trust GK sent by him.Faith has nothing to do with this.Prophet was also human.Further it is just possible out ofthousands of hadiths,this one was not from prophet(I mean the account of incidence is faulty)So


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trust the beautiful message called islam which is given to you by prophet,these minor things dontaccount for even secondary in our faith.sohebdefenderagreed man.................................DefenderSohebthnx.I feared I nearly offended you.thnx again for being patient with me.sohebdefenderthis what islam teach us,.................

peoples questioning islam since the time of it birth.......and with time allah replied them in bestwayALI

@yashwanthHave a look at the article and ofcourse the responses tooo...http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~mbernste/ethics.braindeath.htmlIt is now considered by the medical profession and supported by legal and some ethicalconsensus that if a person's entire brain is dead, the person is dead. The reason is that if the entirebrain is destroyed, there is absence of spontaneous breathing and expected cessation of heartbeatsoon. It is on the basis of this concept that all life support treatments which the patient may havehad in place before brain death has been established can be removed because the patient is nowdead. It also provides the opportunity to obtain organs from a brain dead patient, who hadpreviously given consent, while the organs are still in good condition for transplantation.Families of a brain dead patient may have to be educated about the physiology. However, somereligious groups and even some healthcare workers are uncomfortable with a brain deathdefinition of death since the patient may still have a heart beat and wish to wait until there ispersisting absence of heart beat, the classical criterion.ALIlook at the first 3 responses in this like that I gave u....

they clearly states that if a person is brain dead then He is dead.

So I hope now u can understand that there can be heartbeat without life......taskeenjazak allah brother saleel nice explanation...i wud just like 2 expand on it.....

Almighty has ilm-e-ghaib (knowledge of unseen,hidden,unknown) and power over all things.Allah knows perfectly wht happened in past.. whts happening presently and wht will happen infuture.Humans are the best of Allah's ceation coz Allah gave us intelligence and free will!! thus nobdycan blame Allah that Allah made him/her do smthin... its their choice.


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since Allah knws wht future hides.. so evn b4 a child is born Almighty writes down wht certainfacts like wht the baby will live up to be and whn and how it will die....Now from birth until death, we have angels appointed over us who jot down carefully all ourdeeds. These records match with the 1 written b4 birth [showing how supreme is the knowledgeof Allah].....taskeenFinally on the day of judgement every being will be shown their record and none will be able todeny their deeds.righteous will be handed their records in right hand and will enter jannah (mashahallah) whilethose receiving it in left will enter hell fire.

May Allah(swt) mak us 4m amongst the 1 entering jannatul firdaus... amen.....taskeeni hope brother yashwant ur clear on this issue....i mean u cant blame the Almighty for ur acts.........taskeenbrother yashwant i felt like asking u a question..... cud u plz tell me... is a sperm alive? and the

egg within the ovary? ... was just wondering......yashwant.IITRSALEELALIlook at the first 3 responses in this like that I gave u....


So I hope now u can understand that there can be heartbeat without life.

first of all , I am not sure if the quran support ur arguments (above). please provide the referencewhere the quran says that brain dead is 'dead' !

secondly , how did u conclude that the fetus is brain dead for 120 days .

please provide quranic and scientific references for ur conclusions.

Namaste.....taskeenoh brother yashwant u not answering me... not gud!!!Karthik^^ Ur site reference was on Ethics..And I see a valid point there, that a Brain Dead person coulddonate organs to improve the quality of life of another person..But the issue is still not settled

SaleelBrother Yashwant,Sorry for the delayed response, I have limited access to Orkut on weekends...

In Islam, faith in Allah and doing righteous deeds go hand in Hand, the ultimate success in theHereafter is for people who follow this. Allah says. There are no shortcuts to Paradise, we haveto EARN it by our Faith as well as our Deeds, (just as a Hindu can attain Moksha only by havingfaith in the Supreme God):


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"By (the Token of) Time (through the ages), Verily Man is in loss, Except such as have Faith, anddo righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience andConstancy."[103:1-3]

"....Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and agreat Reward." [48:29]

You have quoted one Ayat [2:58], part of which says "We will forgive you your wrongs and givemore to those who do good (to others).". Brother, which of these is the "injustice" you are talkingabout? One of the attributes of Allah is "Gafoor" - The Oft Forgiving. To be worthy of Hisforgiveness, we have to believe in Him and repent for our sins. If someone does a wrong andbothers not to do anything about it, would it be fair to forgive him? Not at all. Allah says:

But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah isOft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [49:14]

"But, without doubt, I am (also) He that forgives again and again, to those who repent, believe,and do right, who,- in fine, are ready to receive true guidance." [20:82] .

As regards "giving more" to those who do good, Allah in his infinite Mercy promises to increasethe rewards of all good deeds, but only punish the sins in due measure :

""He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only berecompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them." [6:160]".

Please note that magnanimity does not mean injustice. While people who don't believe wouldalso be rewarded for their good deeds, certainly those who believe in Allah AND do good deedsdeserve a greater reward (it would be unfair if the latter don't get it). Allah would ensure thateven the tiniest of our deeds get their due in the Hereafter.

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done anatom's weight of evil, shall see it."[99:7-8]

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"If allah and p Mohammed did not know about the rooh or soul or atma..."

How can you say that Allah doesn't know about something simply because He has not revealedthe knowledge to us? The holy Qur'an is a guide for mankind [2:185], and contains knowledge

which is useful to us in leading righteous lives and attaining Allah's pleasure. Since knowledgeof various aspects of our soul has no bearing in this mission, Allah has not burdened us with itsknowledge. Allah doesn't need to demonstrate His knowledge to His creation by listing it all in abook, and if He has chosen not to reveal certain matters to us, it doesn't change the fact that Allahis the All-knowing, the Wise [24:18, 49:8 etc.].

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Please let me know if I've missed any point you have written. And do excuse if my response isdelayed, but would try to do justice to your queries to the best of my limited knowledge, inshaAllah...

Thanks and peace....Karthik@ SaleelWhile people who don't believe would also be rewarded for their good deeds, certainly thosewho believe in Allah AND do good deeds deserve a greater reward (it would be unfair if thelatter don't get it).

I have a disconnect on this..I believe that mere faith doe not determine the reward, a good actcontinues to be rewarded in the same measure irrespective of whether a person believes in GODor not, be it GOD in any faith..GOD, I am sure shall be more happy with good deeds rather thanpeople's faith in Him..Of all the people, GOD needs no flattery.SaleelBrother Karthik,

A simple question - If two persons perform the same deed, should they both get the samereward/punishment ?KarthikYes, with an additional rider of the intention..

e.g. , Say giving Rs. 10 expecting a reward and giving Rs. 10 as a genuine help, the latter wouldseem more hospitable..But either ways, we have helped in the same fashion, so the rewardshould be the same for that deedKarthik@ SaleelYou answer this question of mine:

During Eid, alms are given..The poor benefit.

Say a Muslim donates Rs. 10 and so does a Hindu to the same Poor Man, would the Muslim geta greater reward than the Hindu?

I believe that the poor man shall thank both equally, and so shall GOD reward accordingly..SaleelBrother Karthik,I'd like to differ there brother - lets say a millionaire gives Rs. 10 in charity, and a labourer doesthe same, both with good intentions - I'd say the latter's deed is a more noble one and deservesgreater reward. Similarly if a rich kid steals a loaf of bread (just for the heck of it), and a starving

poor guy does the same, the former deserves a punishment, not the latter. Now what is the Justreward, punishment etc. can be decied by Allah alone, who knows the secrets of our hearts[3:154], who knows everything about His creation [6:59].

Similarly, lets try to find out the difference between the good deed done by a believer and anunbeliever. A believer does so primarily for the pleasure of Allah (there are degrees of faith -people who do good to achieve the goodies of Paradise, people who do so out of fear of the


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punishment of Hell, people who do so for the pleasure of Allah etc. A true believer's primary goalshould be the pleasure of Allah [e.g. 30:38] and Allah rewards them greatly.

An unbeliever's motive for a good deed (or for refraining from a bad deed) is never related toAllah, nor does he desire Allah's pleasure. Yet, Allah is merciful enough to acknowledge thegood deeds and reward them. However, if we put ourselves in the shoes of the believer, it wouldbe gross injustice to him if the unbeliever (who doesn't even care about Allah or the Hereafter)gets the same reward as he does for the same deed. Accordingly, Allah who is Just would rewardthem in due measures so as not to be unfair to either of them in the least :

"Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and givethfrom His own presence a great reward." [4:40]

Thanks and peace...SaleelBrother Karthik,Dear brother, nobody know what each would get, but only that Allah wouldn't let the good deeds

of ANYONE go in vain, as He says here. And I have full faith in His Justice to all His creatures :

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done anatom's weight of evil, shall see it."[99:7-8]

Thanks...Saleel"Reward" has many implications apart from the "good things of life" which readily come tomind. The holy Qur'an says that the greatest reward for a true believer is being close to His Lordin Paradise :

"They shall have all that they wish for, in the presence of their Lord: such is the reward of thosewho do good" [39:34]

"For them will be a home of peace in the presence of their Lord: He will be their friend, becausethey practised (righteousness)."[6:127]

Thanks...Karthik@ SaleelFirstly, ALLAH is the way you call the God that you worship, I believe, ALLAH means GOD inArabic.

Hindus worship GOD using different forms and names, and likewise Jews, Christians etc.. havetheir own ways..

If an atheist give alms to a beggar, I find it hard to believe that a Muslim sghall score over himon the same in the eyes of GOD.


14/41

This is my faith, and my personal views.Let us end this here.Your views to yourself and mine tome..

This is what Einstein said and I tend to agree with him on this:

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; noreligious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fearof punishment and hope of reward after death. ~ Albert Einstein.All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. ~ Albert Einstein.If the believers of the present-day religions would earnestly try to think and act in the spirit of thefounders of these religions then no hostility on the basis of religion would exist among thefollowers of the different faiths. Even the conflicts and the realm of religion would be exposed asinsignificant. ~ Albert Einstein.

So to sum it up,I have decided that God is bigger than the box we put Him in labelled "religion"Karthik@ SaleelIt is in our lives and not our words that our religion must be read. ~ Thomas Jefferson

So It really does not matter of the name of religion is used or not for good deeds.I would infactsay that if I do something good out of my own will rather than on the name of GOD, GOD shallsee that as a good deed.

This is because GOD is the maker and he does not care for our endorsements..yashwant.IITRTHESE Q R NOT ADDRESSED !SALEELALIlook at the first 3 responses in this like that I gave u....


So I hope now u can understand that there can be heartbeat without life.

first of all , I am not sure if the quran support ur arguments (above). please provide the referencewhere the quran says that brain dead is 'dead' !

secondly , how did u conclude that the fetus is brain dead for 120 days .

please provide quranic and scientific references for ur conclusions.

namaste----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


15/41

"If allah and p Mohammed did not know about the rooh or soul or atma..."

How can you say that Allah doesn't know about something simply because He has not revealedthe knowledge to us? The holy Qur'an is a guide for mankind [2:185], and contains knowledgewhich is useful to us in leading righteous lives and attaining Allah's pleasure. Since knowledgeof various aspects of our soul has no bearing in this mission, Allah has not burdened us with itsknowledge. Allah doesn't need to demonstrate His knowledge to His creation by listing it all in abook, and if He has chosen not to reveal certain matters to us, it doesn't change the fact that Allahis the All-knowing, the Wise [24:18, 49:8 etc.].

THIS BODY IS MADE OF MATERIAL + SOUL.

Aum taught us that Aum is most important, soul is secondary and material is of lesser importance.vedas teach us the guna , karma and swabhava of all three .

Allah taught u that Allah is foremost and material is secondary . further, rooh need not bebothered about. So, allah taught u about 2 things.

Whose teaching is correct ?NamasteSaleelBrother Yashwant,"Aum taught us that Aum is most important, soul is secondary and material is of lesserimportance .vedas teach us the guna , karma and swabhava of all three"

References please...

====

"Allah taught u that Allah is foremost and material is secondary . further, rooh need not bebothered about. So, allah taught u about 2 things."

Allah gave us complete knowledge which is required for us to realise His greatness and given usthe path which leads to Him. Our life is short and we have to make most of it in order to attainthe pleasure of Allah, hence Allah has chosen to reveal to us information which would benefit ushere, rather than burdening us with too much. Allah promises us that when the time is right, Hewould reveal to us the truth of all things people disputed about.

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding

it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vaindesires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribeda law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (Hisplan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of youall is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute" [5:48]

====


16/41

Thanks and peace...yashwant.IITRhmmm........."He who has created this multiform universe, and is the cause of its sustenance as well asdissolution, the Lord of the universe in whom the whole world exists, is sustained and thenresolved into elementary condition, is the Supreme Spirit. Know Him, O man, to be your Godand believe in no other [e.g. ALLAH] as the Creator of the Universe."RIG VEDA 10: 129: 7

"O Men, that All-pervading Being alone is the Lord of the imperishable prakriti - the materialcause of the world - and of the soul and is yet distinct from both. He is the Creator of universe -the past, present and the future." YAJUR VEDA 31: 2 .

Likened to the trunk of a tree whose branches are the multiform universe which is resolved intotis elementary condition at the time of dissolution is also eternal. The natures, attributes andcharacters of these three are also eternal. Of the two - God and the soul - the latter alone reapsthe fruits of this tree of the universe - good or evil - whilst the former does not. He is the All-

glorious Being who shines within, without and all around." RIG VEDA I, 164, 20.

"The Great God - the King - revealed all kinds of knowledge to the human soul - His eternalsubjects - through the Veda [and not the quran]." YAJUR VEDA, 40, 8.

therefore , AUM gave vedas to mankind in the beginning.AUM told men that there are 3 eternals.hence, no other prophet or avtaar or book is required.the aryans shall strive for arya rashtra and fight against the establishment of faulty doctrines likedar-ul-islam , etc.

ANY WAY THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN SOME OTHER TOPIC .

MUSLIMS ARE REQUESTED TO ANSWER MY q ON THE TOPICDefender@all(and yashwant especially)"The Great God - the King - revealed all kinds of knowledge to the human soul - His eternalsubjects - through the Veda [and not the quran]." YAJUR VEDA, 40, 8.

Because vedas say they are from god,they are from god.Because qu'ran says it is from god,it is from god.because muhammad(pbuh) says he is messenger,he is messenger.because Krishna says he is god,he is god.

Look,I have found common grounds for both religions.yashwant.IITRDEAR ALLSINCE NO MUSLIM HAS BEEN ABLE TO EXPLAIN THE GROWTH OF A DEAD FETUSIN THE MOTHER'S WOMB FOR 120 DAYS , I RECKON THAT THE TOPIC HAS DONEITS JOB.


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BY THE GRACE OF MY KNOWLEDGE OF THE VEDAS I HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL INBURNING A HOLE INTO THE OFT-TOUTED TOPIC OF EMBRYOLOGY BY ISLAMISTS.THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN USED BY DR ZAKIR NAIK IN CALLING ALL THE BAATILTOWARDS ISLAM . STRANGELY, THIS QUESTION DID NOT OCCUR TO HIS MEDICALBRAIN.

FURTHER, IF HE KNEW THE ANSWER , SOME MUSLIM WOULD HAVE BROUGHTTHE ANSWER FROM IRF FORUM TO US.

ANYWAY THE Q WILL STAY TILL QAYAMAT. SCRAP ME THE ANSWER WHENEVER UGET IT.

AND NOW WE SHALL ADDRESS THE TOPIC QUOTED BY BR. DEFENDER.

TOPIC CLOSEDSaleelI don't think it is too complicated, dear brother...

The foetus, till 120 days, is attached to the mother's body and hence cannot be called dead in thestrict sense (just like we don't call her eye/hand as dead, even though they don't have a life ofTHEIR OWN). It receives nourishment from the mother and grows, but cannot be called aseparate living entity. It is only that after 120 days it gets a Ruh of its own...

Thanks...yashwant.IITRhmmm....the difference between a live person and a dead person is 'ATMA'.

let us compare the body parts of the mother with the fetus.

1. the body parts are present in the mother at birth . the fetus is a result of an insertion.2. the fetus separates from the mother after 9+ months and leads a separate life. the eye can neverdo so.3. the heart of the fetus beats with its OWN beat/RATE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THEMOTHER .4. if the mother's rooh was in the fetus for 120 days then the fetus should develop just like aCLONE for 120 days , yet we find children who are born [to healthy mothers] deaf and dumband blind and devoid of limbs, holes in heart and so on and so forth. CHILDREN AREDIFFERENT FROM THEIR MOTHER IN MANY WAYS. in ur case the development should be

same as that of the mother.5. if the mother's rooh was in the fetus for 120 days then why did it get substituted by anotherrooh on 120th day? why not at the moment of birth itself? how did this process take place?6 the nails and hair of the mother are deemed dead when they separate from the mother . but thefetus lives on or dies after birth.

idam na mama=this knowledge is not mine . verily , it is a gift from AUM.Namaste


18/41

yashwant.IITRqualities of atmanyaya 1/1/10 ; vaisheshika 3/2/4

Desire for the acquisition of things; repulsion, activity, feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain,sorrow, displeasure; consciousness, inspiration and expiration, nictation - closing and opening ofthe eyes, organic growth, discernment, memoryand individuality, movement, regulation of the senses, internal changes and disorders, such ashunger and thirst, joy or sorrow, etc., are the attributes of the soul which distinguish it from God.Kashifreservation wala matkathe difference between a live person and a dead person is 'ATMA'first proove ur statement scientifically..... I have been asking u this from my very first post but ukeep skipping it..... I think the question is not going in ur little brain.....

@Alistop calling him an IITan.... He is doin M.tech frm IIT and they don't desrve to be called IItan ,

GATE is a backdoor entry to IIT.... if M.techs r called IITan then mess workers of IIt's shud alsobe called IITan, there is not much difference in their brain size..... moreover he has got in throughreservation..... so,he is a reservation wala matka...... belive me that's the worst kind.....DefenderSaleelThe foetus, till 120 days, is attached to the mother's body and hence cannot be called dead in thestrict sense (just like we don't call her eye/hand as dead, even though they don't have a life ofTHEIR OWN). It receives nourishment from the mother and grows, but cannot be called aseparate living entity. It is only that after 120 days it gets a Ruh of its own...

Do u mean foetus separates from mother after 120 days?.....taskeenbrother yashwant didnt answer me... is d sperm n ovum dead or living??yashwant.IITR.....taskeenbrother yashwant didnt answer me... is d sperm n ovum dead or living??

what does the quran say on ur query?DefenderkashifAm afraid u r going too personal which may not be needed.This may get discussion off the track.pray clarification.

saj@kashifThats personal nd i dont consider iitians as something great either,its just a qualification from aninstitute after all.DefenderKashiffirst proove ur statement scientifically..... I have been asking u this from my very first post but ukeep skipping it..... I think the question is not going in ur little brain.....


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this u posted to yashwant.Now let me help you on that.Lets suppose atma does not exist,which is same as soul or nafs described in qu'ran.So this leads to ruining judgement day theory of islam,which forms core concept of islamic faith.Result,if soul/atma is non existant,islam cant claim anymore that its from allah.So,its upto you.either accept existance of atma,or.....be an apostat.

Hope mr. einstein will get it.DefenderSaj... is d sperm n ovum dead or living??

Help out taskin,since u r of medical background.Saj[http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile.aspx?uid=13994646510420298151]@defender

They r ofcourse living,just like the heart is a living .Its when the spem and the ova gets fused thatan offspring is produced.sajInitially the sperm and the ova fuses toghther ,an embryo is produced which later becomes afetus.DefenderSajIs it in the sense of complete entity?I think thats what taskin wants to know.I mean heart is not different entity.Seek ur help on this topic specifically,I dont know what willbe result of this discussion,but it did arouse my interest in this branch of science for sure.saj@defendeIts not considered as a diffrent entity ,thats sperm and ova until it fuses and an embryo isformed.An embryo becomes a diffrent entity.Then agin there is lot of arguments and counterarguments.Defendersajso its alive like body organs?SaleelBrother Kashif,No personal attacks here. Please take care.

=====

Brother Defender,

"Do u mean foetus separates from mother after 120 days?"

No brother, I didn't say so. What I meant is that during the initial 120 days, the foetus remains apart of the mother's body and doesn't have a Ruh of its own. It gets one after completing 120days and then can be called a separate being (while not physically separate).


20/41

Thanks...DefenderSaleelNo brother, I didn't say so. What I meant is that during the initial 120 days, the foetus remains apart of the mother's body and doesn't have a Ruh of its own. It gets one after completing 120days and then can be called a separate being (while not physically separate).

Thats islamic point of view.Can I have medical point of view saying feutus is dead before 120 days?(ruh is life force,right?)Also,when nafs enters embrayo?Defenderenough questioning,Taskintime to answer

What u say,when embrayo comes to life?Be specific and point to point.What is qu'ranic beleif regarding this matter.No verses required at the stage.And do u support it or not?DefenderSaleelNo brother, I didn't say so. What I meant is that during the initial 120 days, the foetus remains apart of the mother's body and doesn't have a Ruh of its own. It gets one after completing 120days and then can be called a separate being (while not physically separate).

I forgot to ask one more thing.What is ruh responcible for?Bringing the foetus to life is ok,but any symptom which wont be in foetus without ruh.SaleelBrother Defender,"Can I have medical point of view saying feutus is dead before 120 days?"

I never said that the foetus is dead before 120 days, please see my earlier post to brotherYashwant (84th or so).

====

"Also,when nafs enters embrayo?"

Not sure at what stage brother. But it is true that our Nufoos were in existence long before wewere even conceived. Every single yet-to-be-born individual had acknowledged Allah :

"When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, andmade them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes andsustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day ofJudgment: "Of this we were never mindful""[7:173]


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Thanks...DefenderSaleelOk will check that.Can we say ruh is life-force and nafs is conscience?DefenderSaleelI never said that the foetus is dead before 120 days, please see my earlier post to brotherYashwant (84th or so).

Its not there.SaleelBrother Defender,"What is ruh responcible for?"

For keeping the body alive. Just like a battery cell keeps an electronic toy running.DefenderSaleelSymptoms that ruh is in body?SaleelSorry brother, it was the 64th post. I'd written that "The foetus, till 120 days, is attached to themother's body and hence cannot be called dead in the strict sense ".

Ruh is the spirit keeping us alive, life-force describes it well. Conscience is a part of Nafs. Nafsis a person's self/personality - related to the nature of the individual. When we talk to someone, itis actually two Nufoos which are conversing.

Thanks...SaleelBrother Yashwant,"1. the body parts are present in the mother at birth . the fetus is a result of an insertion."

Not every cells in the mother's body is present at birth, even the ones which are formed later onare also part of her body. The foetus develops from the zygote, formed by the fusion of the ovum(a part of the mother's body) and the sperm (from the father). Even after the fusion, it remainswithin her body. Hence, even though an external influence is required, it doesn't become anentirely foreign body. There are other cases like this - the stomach receives food from outside,

yet remains a part of the body. The haemoglobin in the blood receives oxygen from outside,changes to oxyhaemoglogin, but is still a part of us.

====

"2. the fetus separates from the mother after 9+ months and leads a separate life. the eye cannever do so."


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That's because by then the foetus has a separate Ruh, while the eye is not. The foetus has becomea separate living entity when it receives its Ruh, though it still needs the environment of thewomb and nourishment from the mother to develop.

====

"3. the heart of the fetus beats with its OWN beat/RATE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF THEMOTHER ."

The eye of the mother also flutters at a rate different from that of her heart . The heart of themother and that of the baby operate at rates which are ideal for each, that needn't necessarilymean that they are controlled by different agencies.

====

"4. if the mother's rooh was in the fetus for 120 days then the fetus should develop just like aCLONE for 120 days"

Why is that necessary? The development is according to the genetic structure, which is differentin the mother and the foetus.

====

[Contd.]Saleel"5. if the mother's rooh was in the fetus for 120 days then why did it get substituted by anotherrooh on 120th day? why not at the moment of birth itself? how did this process take place?"

I never said the mother's Ruh is INSIDE the foetus - we don't know about the location, just thatits effects are seen on the foetus. Anyway, substitution is inherent to life - cells getting replacedetc. In this case, the life force of the foetus, which was the mother's Ruh to begin with, getssubstituted by its own Ruh at 120 days - just like transitioning from one power source to another.

====

"6 the nails and hair of the mother are deemed dead when they separate from the mother . but thefetus lives on or dies after birth."

Answered above. The difference is that the baby has a Ruh of its own...

====

P.S: I wouldn't be able to access internet on weekends, so please bear with me if I respond late toany further queries from your side...

Thanks for a good discussion, and peace to you....


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DefenderSaleelEven after the fusion, it remains within her body. Hence, even though an external influence isrequired, it doesn't become an entirely foreign body. There are other cases like this - the stomachreceives food from outside, yet remains a part of the body. The haemoglobin in the bloodreceives oxygen from outside, changes to oxyhaemoglogin, but is still a part of us

Thats confusing.Foetus also remains with mother for 9 months,not just 120 days.Also,any symptoms that foetus received ruh?SaleelBrother Defender,"Foetus also remains with mother for 9 months,not just 120 days."

Yes, but after 120 days, it exists not just as a part of the mother, but as an individual in itself - atiny person . This is because of the Ruh.

====

"Also,any symptoms that foetus received ruh?"

My knowledge of the field is very limited brother, but in all likelihood, this is a smooth transitionprocess - no website I referred to mentions any specific signs signalling such an event. Thefoetus is in a state of continuous development, especially during the initial stages of gestation,and which of these could be attributed to the newly obtained Ruh is not clear. It would be aninteresting aspect to study for the experts of this field.

Thanks...sajGuys it basic knowledge that the total time spend by the baby in the mothers womb is ninemonths unless its premature or post term.You guys are embarassing me......taskeenvery bad yashwant bhai.. vry bad!!......

im askin u.. n u askin wht Quran says... ppl here r telling u wht Quran n hadith speak on disissue... but u wont accept!

n whn i ask u.. u rely on d Quran .... u a sly fella?

u wanna knw wht Quran speaks on foetal development... den ive made a thread on this issue....

plz take d trouble of going thru it.. cant write all over again yah pe......taskeenhttp://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=2500808&tid=5306046676798989692&na=4link link........taskeenn nw plz.. answer... is d sperm n ovum alive or dead??.. wht does hinduism n science speak onit??...


24/41

surely hinduism being such a vast relign wid so many bks.. must b speakin smthin on it??DefendertaskinU can help urself on science part.Just refer few posts above urs.About hinduism,I beleive it deals with spirituality,proving of disproving physical phenomenondoesnt affect it nor its followersOffcourse yashwant may give u veda's view if any.DefenderSaleelok.Lets ask others.DefendertaskinDid you see my question?when does ruh enter embrayo and what are symptoms of ruh entering embrayo?.....taskeenbrother defender.... wht ur askin me has already been answered by many... but ur being sostubborn n slimy u wont accept..

DefendertaskinWhere anyone have answered symptoms of ruh in body?ALI@yashwanthhttp://www.orkut.com/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=2500808&tid=5304466803170514505&na=3&nst=41&nid=2500808-5304466803170514505-5305156987208525180first of all , I am not sure if the quran support ur arguments (above). please provide the referencewhere the quran says that brain dead is 'dead' !secondly , how did u conclude that the fetus is brain dead for 120 days .please provide quranic and scientific references for ur conclusions.namasteMr.IITian...LEMME ASK U ONE THING...ARE YOU ACTING DUMB OR ARE YOUDUMB???Quran is not a science book to give each and every fact....remember that...it is a book ofguidance....with absolutely no errors....I referred to brain dead...to make u understand that even if the heart beats when the brain isdead...the person is considered dead...not alive...got my point...same way..there is heartbeat in the fetus before 120 days....but no ruh...i.e is not alive before 120days....to make u better understand this i gave u the example of brain dead....I already gave u the references...that is enough...it was proved by the scientist...he was not amuslim...he testified that everything about embryology is right...u go through it again...ALI

@yashwanthAum taught us that Aum is most important, soul is secondary and material is of lesser importance.vedas teach us the guna , karma and swabhava of all three .

Allah taught u that Allah is foremost and material is secondary . further, rooh need not bebothered about. So, allah taught u about 2 things.

Whose teaching is correct ?


25/41

namaste

I CAN CONCLUDE JUST ONE THING...UR AS DUMB AS ONE CAN EVER GET.....

if one analyzes the way ur thinking...the way ur trying to get to ur "so called" logicalconclusion.....

have a look at it....

aum taught 3 things...IN ALL THE TEACHINGS...IN ALL THE BOOKS U HAVE, THRU ALLTHE GURUS....the vedas, upanishads, bhagwatgeeta etc....just 3 things on the whole... nothingelse.....

Allah taught 2 things...asked not to consider 3rd one....in Quran, in hadiths, thruprophets........just 2 things...nothing else...

as we all know 3 > 2....

whose teaching is correct?namaste....

DUMBBBB........sohebyashwantplz prove that ur faith is right and you all are a noble people from scienceALI@yashwanth"The Great God - the King - revealed all kinds of knowledge to the human soul - His eternalsubjects - through the Veda [and not the quran]." YAJUR VEDA, 40, 8.

therefore , AUM gave vedas to mankind in the beginning.AUM told men that there are 3 eternals.hence, no other prophet or avtaar or book is required.the aryans shall strive for arya rashtra and fight against the establishment of faulty doctrines likedar-ul-islam , etc.

ANY WAY THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED IN SOME OTHER TOPIC .

MUSLIMS ARE REQUESTED TO ANSWER MY q ON THE TOPIC

these are basic eternal laws which every religion speaks of in their holy books....which by NOMEANS makes u any superior even a BIT.....

i can conclude again..that u take a poor logical deduction...ALI@Kashif@Ali


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stop calling him an IITan.... He is doin M.tech frm IIT and they don't desrve to be called IItan ,GATE is a backdoor entry to IIT.... if M.techs r called IITan then mess workers of IIt's shud alsobe called IITan, there is not much difference in their brain size..... moreover he has got in throughreservation..... so,he is a reservation wala matka...... belive me that's the worst kind.....

brother Kashif...it is a rhetoric way....I dont call him in a way u feel that Im callinghim....everytime I remind him that hez an IITian and he comes with dumb analogies...even if hecomes with doubts....he gets to his dumb conclusions....DefenderaliMy question is not specific for taskin or saleel,anyone can answer it.By the way,whats definition of brain death or what u mean by brain dead?What are the symptoms of ruh entering foetus?.....taskeenMy question is not specific for taskin or saleel,anyone can answer it.By the way,whats definition of brain death or what u mean by brain dead?What are the symptoms of ruh entering foetus?

1stly brother defender... next time whn u refer 2 me plz get the spelling of my name correct

2ndly..... ur askin abt the symptoms.brother science hasnt been able to prove the existence of soul as yet!.... do u knw dat??soh hw do i give u d symptoms?.....taskeennw if u want 2 knw wht Quran speaks on d 'symptoms' ...

....den me sorry.. me havent come across any such verses in the Quran speaking on thesymptoms.........wht ever the glorious Quran speaks on embryology ive given details abt it in 1 other thread n uknw it ... guess evn read it!Defender@Taskeenbrother science hasnt been able to prove the existence of soul as yet!.... do u knw dat??soh hw do i give u d symptoms?

Let me simplify.Ruh is a life-force,so once ruh enters body,it should come alive as separate entity.Agree or not?Then the symptoms ruh entered the body will be signs of life.Thats what am asking,what u consider sign of life?brain,heart,what?

or if qu'ran informs u something,its welcome again.yashwant.IITRali/saleelI referred to brain dead...to make u understand that even if the heart beats when the brain isdead...the person is considered dead...not alive...got my point...


27/41

Definitions of brain death on the Web:

Brain death is a legal definition of death that emerged in the 1960s as a response to the ability toresuscitate individuals and mechanically keep the heart and lungs working. ...

death when respiration and other reflexes are absent; consciousness is gone; organs can beremoved for transplantation before the heartbeat stops

A legal condition of death in which a persons brain is no longer functioning. A person may bedeclared brain-dead even though his or her heart is still beating.yashwant.IITRhmmm...Definitions of death on the Web:

* the event of dying or departure from life; "her death came as a terrible shock"; "upon yourdecease the capital will pass to your grandchildren"* the permanent end of all life functions in an organism or part of an organism; "the animal died

a painful death"* the absence of life or state of being dead; "he seemed more content in death than he had everbeen in life"* the time when something ends; "it was the death of all his plans"; "a dying of old hopes"* the time at which life ends; continuing until dead; "she stayed until his death"; "a struggle tothe last"* the personification of death; "Death walked the streets of the plague-bound city"* end: a final state; "he came to a bad end"; "the so-called glorious experiment came to aninglorious end"* the act of killing; "he had two deaths on his conscience"yashwant.IITRhmm...clearly the definitions differ........yashwant.IITRhmmmm......when we study the expert opinion; we find that the heart - beat of an unborn child starts as earlyas 22 days.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_the_heartbeat_of_a_baby_start_in_the_womb]"The human heart begins to beat and pump blood through the embryo around day 22 ofgestation.(http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:Z2Mz7QaWoOEJ:www.sciforums.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D51013+when+does+the+heart+of+a+foetus+start+beating%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=in&client=firefox-a)

and can be seen beating on an ultrasound scan in the 5th week/35th day[http://209.85.175.132/search?q=cache:DK9A9DktYKcJ:www.askbaby.com/foetal-development.htm+when+does+the+heart+of+a+foetus+start+beating%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=in&client=firefox-a].furtherDr. Aarti Sahni - Gynaecologist (MBBS, DGO) specialized in Obstetrics & Gynaecology saysthat :


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One can pick up the fetal heart beat as early as 10 weeks with a doppler soniket and can visualizeit on sonography as early as 7 weeks( 49th day). It can be heard by a stethoscope not before 24weeks.[http://www.indiaparenting.com/faqs/pregnancy_baby/foetal_heartbeat.shtml]yashwant.IITRQUESTION FOR alim e deen

The heart of the fetus pumps blood !Which atma/soul/rooh is responsible for it : mother's rooh or the rooh of the fetus?sohebyashwantcan you prove ur faith with the help of science............

can you prove rebirth by science.........

can science believe in exitence of god.......

plz rply............

arya samajis means nobel people plz prove by the help of ssciencesohebyashwantplz rply.....taskeenahh... thank u brother defender... u got my spelling life!

haan nw wht i think.... heart... brain... etc..etc....never thought on this bro.... ...... n me not a scientist 2 comment on dis!

as regards Quran...... from the Quran v come 2 knw dat death happens whn the soul is taken out4m d body by the angel of death!

nw plz dont ask me 4 proofs!Defendertaskeenas regards Quran...... from the Quran v come 2 knw dat death happens whn the soul is taken out4m d body by the angel of death!

In other words,body comes to life when soul enters it.

Taking it further,when soul enters embryo,it comes to life,becomes a different entity than mother......taskeenAllah knows best...... seems acceptable 2 me!yashwant.IITR2 days have passedstill no answers on my Q regarding the soul behingd the heart beat of a fetus.

one wonders why people have stopped excercising their common sense !


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NamasteSaleelBrother Yashwant,How is that question related to religion? God (Allah/Aum) has created the entire Universe andsustains it in harmony. Is it then too difficult for Him to keep the tiny heart of the foetus ticking?What difference does it make whether it is controlled by the mother's Ruh or some other agency?

Thanks........taskeenbrother Yashwant!so many days have passed since i asked u regarding the sperm and ovum! ive evn lost count ofthe days.why dont u answer me?

r only muslims suposed 2 answer???..... cnt v demand answers???.....taskeen

c u ppl depend so much on us 4 ur queries.... seking answers 4m Quran n sunnah..... n after vpresent it.... u dont even bother 2 accept or acknowledge

pray lemme ask u wht does hinduism speak on foetal development???..... does it speak anythingat all?????????? .............. surely having so many bks it must have smthing 2 say on it!!.....taskeenno ill feelings meant... just queries....yashwant.IITRSaleelHow is that question related to religion?

RELIGION TEACHES US ABOUT CHETAN =AUM AND ATMA

God (Allah/Aum) has created the entire Universe and sustains it in harmony. Is it then toodifficult for Him to keep the tiny heart of the foetus ticking?

AUM HAS PLACED THE RESPONSIBILITY OF CAUSING THE HEART TO TICK ON THEATMA.

What difference does it make whether it is controlled by the mother's Ruh or some other agency?

THE DIFFERENCE IS THE SAME AS THAT BETWEEN VEDAS[TRUTH] AND QURAN[ TRUTH + FALSEHOOD]

Thanks....yashwant.IITR.....taskeen


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prove that heart ticks on atma , scientifically.....

btw there is a question for u.... where is the oldest existing copy of vedas..... I know that vedas rtrillions of yr old.. there must be some 5000 yr old copy ... or did ppl used softcopy at thattime.....yashwant.IITRsaleelAlso, calling any religious scripture false (without proving it citing references) is against ourcommunity rules. Please provide references within one day in support of all the above argumentsby tomorrow (5th March)

what was the name of the qazi who performed the nikaah of P MOHD and zainab ?who were the witnesses/GAWAH?what was the mehr?

if there is no evidence of nikaah ; then how did the prophet bed her without nikaah ?

O MUSLIMS , IF U WILL ANSWER MY QUESTION , I WILL BECOME A MUSLIM .

SO, WHAT R U WAITING FOR ?BRING THE ANSWER

if not, then come to vedic dharma

NAMASTEKashif@reservation wala matkaName the pantit who performed wedding of ur father n mother...

if there is no evidence of marriage ; then how did the ur father f*** her without marriage....

SO, WHAT R U WAITING FOR ?BRING THE ANSWER

if not, then vedic dharma is better for u....yashwant.IITRKashif

sorry dear ,if i have hurt your feelings .i am doing my religious duty .trying to help people from darkness to light ......

please find out about my query above .don't u think u ought to know about this issue ' CLEARLY'.


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NAMASTEMatinYashwant

What is this vedic dharma?SaleelBrother YashwantYou have conveniently overlooked all the questions posed to you in my above post and are tryingfor yet another diversion of the topic - your post is being deleted for the same reason. Anyway,I'll wait till the end of the day for answers, since that was the deadline given.

========

Brother Kashif,

I'd warned you previously against making such personal attacks, and this is the final warning.

The last post especially is extremely improper and would be deleted.As Muslims, it is our duty tomaintain decency in conversation, even if we are provoked. If you fear that you wouldn't be ableto be polite, please refrain from posting until you have calmed down. Please refrain fromreferring to brother Yashwant as you have done above. I know you are a good debater, and hopeto see better discussions from you in future.

Thanks and peace....DefenderKashifDescriptions given in vedas abt soul may be written by some human.... such theories can easilybe created by anyone....Mind it mr.U r crossing limits.but the Quran(The truth) talks abt soul and gives such accurate embryological descriptions thateven big scientisrs r compelled to believe in it's devinity...(can u show any scientist who readveda n became hindu)

My question about symptoms of ruh entering body is still awaited.Fritjof Kapra,(tao of physics).But I dont give a damn who converts to my faith or who abuses it.Perhaps thats why it is called faith......taskeenppl r moving away 4m d topic!....

if u all wanna discuss soul.. rooh.. aatma den guess u shud create a new thread ... nto here plz....

brother saleel.. wht u think?DefendertaskeenProof of soul,not sure.But about my question,its perfectly in accordance with topic.


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If its ruh which brings feutus to life,then the symptoms must be there.And then only from thesesymptoms we can say anything about foetus coming to life......taskeenbrother defenderur qstn has been answered earlier 2..... but u dont wanna except its ur choice... i think brothersaleel has done his bit of answering.... but u ppl r rejecting n rejecting... n ul keep on rejecting

this topic says "Quranic science and foetal development" ...... but it hardly speaks on anythin datQuran says on foetal development ...... instead dey have taken up a hadith n r pressing on2 itDefenderur qstn has been answered earlier 2..... but u dont wanna except its ur choice... i think brothersaleel has done his bit of answering.... but u ppl r rejecting n rejecting... n ul keep on rejecting

Dear,u said u dont know on that.Same saleel said.I take it n ask it on medical grounds that whats symptom of life.So,am I asking to othermembers.Ashwin

And yet more circular reasoning, the people at orkut really need to understand the fundamentallaws of logic and rhetoric......taskeenu want d answer on medical grounds... den start a new thread..... n seek 4m both muslims andnon muslims!! ..... that will be more logical and acceptable 2 allDefendertaskeenI would have,but its related to this topic.U see,if I get answer on my question then only I will be able to analyse at what stage foetusshows these symptoms.Since the discussion as about what islam says,its muslims I should ask,if I dont want rifts......taskeenbrother defender..... ... haahaahaaa

carry on!.....taskeennon of us here r in2 medical research n all dat stuff.... wht v knew v provided dem 2 u.....

brother why not do 1 kaam ..... u go n do d research on dis particular issue.. n come back n shareur discovery wid us....

it might just happen dat ul b awarded a Nobel 4 ur contribution 2 d medical science!.. just think

abt it.....taskeenppl... just get smthin straight.... the Glorious Quran is not a book of science... its a book ofsigns!.. aayaahs

does evry1 understand dat??SaleelSister Taskeen,


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We may discuss the concept of Ruh here, so long as it is related to the current topic -development of the foetus.

=====

Brother Defender,

Though we find certain scientific facts mentioned in the holy Qur'an (e.g the stage-wisedevelopment of the foetus), it would be folly to assume that we could find every scientific detailsin a religious scripture. Hence, a question like "what are the symptoms of life" are best discussedin a scientific community, not here. It has been previously explained that the foetus grows anddevelops even before its Ruh is actually invoked into it (on the 120th day). Being a part of itsmother's body, it is treated as a live entity (just as her body organs are), though it becomes anindividual by its own merit when it receives its Ruh. Whether there are any clearly discerniblesymptoms of this phenomenon is something to be answered by a scientific study, religion doesn'tgive us the information, to the best of my limited knowledge.

Thanks and peace....Defendertaskeenbrother why not do 1 kaam ..... u go n do d research on dis particular issue.. n come back n shareur discovery wid us....

I am a thick skull in medical science.Dont ever expect an engg like me to reasearch in medicine.Defendertaskeenbtw, already neoted ur answer last time.The question was for others.Let them answerDefendertaskeenppl... just get smthin straight.... the Glorious Quran is not a book of science... its a book ofsigns!.. aayaahs

does evry1 understand dat??

Except those who keep on finding science in it......taskeenbrother defender

The Quran is not a book of Science but a book of Signs, i.e. Aayaats. There are more than six

thousand Signs in the Quran of which more than a thousand deal with hard core Science.

soh those parts v try n find out if its matchin wid modern science or not!.. n ppl get amazed 2find dey match perfectlyDefendertaskeensoh those parts v try n find out if its matchin wid modern science or not!.. n ppl get amazed 2find dey match perfectly


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Exactly thats what under question.U dont even know symptoms of ruh entering body/symptoms of life,yet u say foetus becomesseparate entity on 121st day.Yes I am amazed.....taskeenpray point out d verse 4m d Quran where it says dat dey bcm separate entities!!!.....taskeenu using ur own wrds!DefenderTaskeenpray point out d verse 4m d Quran where it says dat dey bcm separate entities!!!

Are u saying 2 ruhs can occupy same entity?You used to apply common sense,what happened?Kashif@defender

Descriptions given in vedas abt soul may be written by some human.... such theories can easilybe created by anyone....Mind it mr.U r crossing limits.did u even read yashwant's post...Kashif@saleelwhen he wrote bad thing abt huzoor s.a.w I was so angry that I wanted to abuse their god, but Ididn't bcoz I thought other hindu brother/sisters will be hurt..... that's why I gave him personalabuses..... atlest u shud appreciate me for dat....yashwant.IITRSALEELDesire for the acquisition of things; repulsion, activity, feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain,sorrow, displeasure; consciousness, inspiration and expiration, nictation - closing and opening ofthe eyes, organic growth, discernment, memory and individuality, movement, regulation of thesenses, internal changes and disorders, such as hunger and thirst, joy or sorrow, etc., are theattributes of the soul . The existence of the soul is known only by these attributes. as it is notmaterial nor perceptible by the senses. These attributes manifest themselves only so long as thesoul is present in the body, but cease to do so as soon as the soul leaves it. Those qualities thatmanifest themselves in the presence of a substance and cease to do so in its absence belong tothat substances alone; as for example, light is the property of the sun and of the lamp, because itis absent in their absence and present in their presence. Similarly, soul is known by its attributes.nyaya shastra 1/1/10vaisheshika 3/2/4

hope this answers your queryyashwant.IITRHMMMM....matinread the 1st 10 chapters ofhttp://www.aryasamajjamnagar.org/satyarth_prakash_eng.htmit tells about vedic dharma


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DefenderKashifThere is a thread for complaints maintained by mods.U should be using it.And there are separate gods for us,u call it allah we call it aum or whatever.btw,I also share same opinion about personal attacks,but thats in case mods dont take actionyashwant.IITRhmmm...You are evading from answering the question posed - "What difference does it make whether it iscontrolled by the mother's Ruh or some other agency?". Also, calling any religious scripture false(without proving it citing references) is against our community rules. Please provide referenceswithin one day in support of all the above arguments by tomorrow (5th March)

the mother's and the fetal blood circulatory systems are distinct. there can not be one soul in 2bodies. we don't need to know rocket technology to agree to this simple concept.

the moment u agree to the contrary , u r ready to believe in black magic, etc; the consequences of

which, being evident, need not be discussed.............

the deleted post contained a falsehood supported by the quran .u cannnot ask me to provide falsehood and delete it arbitrarily.

NamasteSaleel@ Brother Kashif,If you find anyone indulging in abuses here, please report it in the COMPLAINTS thread, themods would take the necessary action, but please don't resort to hateful posts yourself. Thatdouble the job of the mods...

Thanks and peace...DefendercorrectionAnd there are no separate gods for us,u call it allah we call it aum or whatever.SaleelBrother Yashwant,Thanks for the post and the link, please point out where exactly one can find the verse quoted byyou (since there are multiple links there). Also are "nyaya shastra" and "vaisheshika" part of thevedas? You had previously mentioned that "we do not believe on any other book except thevedas." (12th post in the following thread:)

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=2500808&tid=5303247101177927241&na=3&nst=11&nid=2500808-5303247101177927241-5304032500372510281

Hence, are references other than the Vedas credible? We would continue the discussion once thisis resolved.

====="the mother's and the fetal blood circulatory systems are distinct."


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I'm not an expert, but the information I got from the web says otherwise - "Throughout the fetalstage of development, the maternal blood supplies the fetus with O2 and nutrients and carriesaway its wastes". Please refer :

http://www.cayuga-cc.edu/people/facultypages/greer/biol204/heart4/heart4.html

====="there can not be one soul in 2 bodies"

That's why I said that the foetus forms a part of its mother's body until it receives its own Ruh,just as here eye or her hand is a part of her body, and the same soul keeps all these organs alive.=====

Thanks and peace...SaleelBrother Yashwant,

"the deleted post contained a falsehood supported by the quran ."

Agreed to the first part of the sentence , but the holy Qur'an contains no falsehood, and you havefailed to prove your claim within the stipulated time.

You are hereby strongly warned not to post such baseless claims in future.

Thanks....MatinYashwant

I am sure the vedic Dharma is good, request you to stop making amazingly hating posts about theQuran,Islam and the prophet, you know brother you will loose the goodness of the The Ruh thatyou are so fond of.

Or have you already lost it?.....taskeenbrother defender and yashwant have made me do sm research wrk...i found on net.....Weeks 17 to 19* Baby can hear* Baby makes more movements* Mother may feel a fluttering in the lower abdomen

Week 20* Lanugo hair covers entire body* Eyebrows and lashes appear* Nails appear on fingers and toes* The baby is more active with increased muscle development* Mother can feel the baby moving* Fetal heartbeat can be heard with a stethoscope


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reference.....http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htmi can see symtopms of life! ... sense of hearing.. movements.. fetal heartbeat... indicates life inbaby. (and i dont find science against it... maybe bro will refute... but who cares... my faith isfirm in Allah subhana wa ta'ala)soh when d hadith mentions dat rooh enters d fetal on 120th day .... i dont find anythingcontradicting it! coz 'symptoms' taking place after d rooh enters.....taskeend baby is a part of both mom n dad.... d sperm 4m d male amd ovum of female fertilize 2gther 2form a new individual.v must understand dat its a gradual process.... it takes a whole lot of months.the embryo is developing inside d mother's womb... certainly at some point d rooh will enter dfetal making it an individual.

science has not been able 2 define strictly whn a fetal can be called alive! ... soh when Allah saysdat rooh enters on 120th day! .... and there is no contradiction 2 it 4m the side of embryonicresearchers and scientists ..... all i can say now is "SADAQ ALLAHUL AZEEM" (verily Allah

has spoken the truth)Defendertaskeeni can see symtopms of life! ... sense of hearing.. movements.. fetal heartbeat... indicates life inbaby. (and i dont find science against it... maybe bro will refute... but who cares... my faith isfirm in Allah subhana wa ta'ala)soh when d hadith mentions dat rooh enters d fetal on 120th day .... i dont find anythingcontradicting it! coz 'symptoms' taking place after d rooh enters

In that case,plz refer week 9 to 12 from ur link,baby can make fist with its fingers.movements....symptoms of life,and its certainly before 120th day

maybe bro will refute... but who cares... my faith is firm in Allah subhana wa ta'ala)

Thats the spirit.If the result of this discussion is positive,then it should affirm ur faith,if it comesnegative,still u shouldnt be shaken because after all,these are not part of deenDefendertaskeenscience has not been able 2 define strictly whn a fetal can be called alive! ... soh when Allah saysdat rooh enters on 120th day! .... and there is no contradiction 2 it 4m the side of embryonicresearchers and scientists .....

Then its the fact not yet proved,we should refrain from claiming it right or wrong.

.....taskeenIn that case,plz refer week 9 to 12 from ur link,baby can make fist with its fingers

u knw brother... a feather can float n display movements ....wonder if its alive.....taskeenhere v talkin of real movements.... like kicking dat d baby does....


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go search d net.. woman who have experienced pregnancy all say dat movements of d baby vrnoticed only after 4th month.. non say b4 dat .............taskeenThen its the fact not yet proved,we should refrain from claiming it right or wrong

brother.. v didnt bring up dis issue.... u all r pressing on 2 it

.... .... .....

'one 4 gud luck....'Defendertaskeenu knw brother... a feather can float n display movements ....wonder if its alive

but never knew anybody clenching fists after death.

Defendertaskeenhere v talkin of real movements.... like kicking dat d baby does....go search d net.. woman who have experienced pregnancy all say dat movements of d baby vrnoticed only after 4th month.. non say b4 dat ........

Everyone also see sun going from east to west,now dont say sun revolve around earthIf someone lay still,does it mean he isnt alive?Show me how dead clench fists.DefenderTaskeenbrother.. v didnt bring up dis issue.... u all r pressing on 2 it

Then u should be saying its yet to be confirmed,not back the claim.But u sure?I mean its certainly not us who posted topic on embryology in quran ... ... ..... ..this one for good memory.....taskeenbrother defender

dont think dat u can get away sayin anythin!

brother.. it was yashwant who came up pointing dis hadith dat mentns abt d rooh.... ul knw it ifuve been following dis thread

n i knw ur indications were 2wrds my thread...... 'Quran speaks on Embryology'out there all dat ive mention is backed by science....ive only mentioned those facts dat have been proved and recognized and established! ... n as perur request i even provided u wid links 'not 4m d muslim world'.....taskeenand 4 ur good memory.... brother Saleel... myself... and few mr have been continuously telling udat science hasnt advanced 2 its utmost!


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4 ur gooooooooooooooodddd.... or maybe not so gud memoryDefendertaskeenand 4 ur good memory.... brother Saleel... myself... and few mr have been continuously telling udat science hasnt advanced 2 its utmost!

I do remember that...Do u remember my reply to it?Defendertaskeenn i knw ur indications were 2wrds my thread...... 'Quran speaks on Embryology'out there all dat ive mention is backed by science....ive only mentioned those facts dat have been proved and recognized and established! ... n as perur request i even provided u wid links 'not 4m d muslim world'

Then u must have remembered I said I was not interested in disproving anything as long as its

harmless...Now if u want me to go there as well,I will do that.Dont be too sure,sis.I jumped here well after 60+ posts,to reduce unpleasentness created here.........taskeenn brother regarding movements...... u must have seen those ruthless ppl choping off the heads ofchickens on one blow! .... according 2 my common sense headless is considered lifeless .... but umst have seen movements in dem 2.. rigourous movements.n bro.. dead ppl do show movements... strangely 1 finds dat in most of the cases after death.. fistgets clenched. ... d grip bcomes 2 strong!! ....( me belong 2 a family of medical line )

u shud understand dat in d embryo developments r taking place... changes will happen

anywy...... vl close dis 'symptom' wala discussion right here .... dont wanna hear 4m u againsayin.... u tryin 2 back it

brother u remember... i had decided and sealed smthin abt u! .... i stand by it!DefenderTaskeenn bro.. dead ppl do show movements... strangely 1 finds dat in most of the cases after death.. fistgets clenched. ... d grip bcomes 2 strong!! ...

They do it while dying,not after dying.It should be easy to confirm since ur family background

DefenderTaskeenu shud understand dat in d embryo developments r taking place... changes will happen

beating of heart,clenching of fists as a response to brain,all this are symptoms of life.Defendertaskeen


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anywy...... vl close dis 'symptom' wala discussion right here .... dont wanna hear 4m u againsayin.... u tryin 2 back it

brother u remember... i had decided and sealed smthin abt u! .... i stand by it!

As I promised,am not going to oppose my sister's judgement about it.Now for topic,what should be conclusion?Is the concept given is wrong or yet to be provedmeans cant say about the claim?.....taskeenhttp://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/scientists_on_the_quran1.htmDefenderTaskeenI thought we were about to conclude....but u seem to have changed ur mind.Ok,but before I start analysing thread,I want ur stand on the issue.Is the funda yet to be proved by science or is it acknowledged/rejected by science?

We could not conclude thediscussion due to variousreasons. But this material willhelp non-muslims in de-bunking the false claim ofmuslims on embryology.vedasr supreme.
http://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/scientists_on_the_quran1.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/islamicmiracles/scientists_on_the_quran1.htm

orkut debates: the false fetal science of quran

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