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COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
PROFESSIONAL LICENSURE COMMITTEE PUBLIC HEARING
STATE CAPITOL HARRISBURG, PA
RYAN OFFICE BUILDING ROOM 2 05
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 2 016 9:31 A.M.
PRESENTATION ON HOUSE BILL 1357
STATE LICENSURE OF PLUMBERS
BEFORE:HONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLEHONORABLE
JULIE HARHART, MAJORITY CHAIRROSEMARY BROWNJIM CHRISTIANAGARY DAYKEITH GILLESPIEDAVID MILLARDJAMES SANTORACURTIS SONNEYHARRY READSHAW, DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN TINA DAVIS JARET GIBBONS WILLIAM KORTZ
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Pennsylvania House of Representatives Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
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COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:WAYNE CRAWFORD
MAJORITY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MAUREEN BEREZNAK
MAJORITY RESEARCH ANALYST ANGIE KELLY
MAJORITY LEGISLATIVE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT
KEONTAY HODGEDEMOCRATIC LEGISLATIVE ASSISTANT
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I N D E X
TESTIFIERS
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NAME PAGE
WALTER KRZYZANOWSKI PRESIDENT,PLUMBERS LOCAL #690............................ ..... 8
MICHAEL MCGRAWEXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,PENNSYLVANIA PLUMBING-HEATING-COOLING CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION........................ .... 14
JOHN KANESECRETARY-TREASURER,PLUMBERS LOCAL #690............................ .... 18
JOHN CUMMINSPRESIDENT,J.W. CUMMINS PLUMBING, INC..................... .... 23
MARTIN O'TOOLEBUSINESS MANAGER,PLUMBERS LOCAL #27............................. .... 27
KEVIN GLASSONPRESIDENT,MCINTYRE PLUMBING & HEATING................... .... 29
REPRESENTATIVE JIM CHRISTIANAPRIME SPONSOR OF H.B. 1357 ..................... .... 59
WILL SEILHAMER PRESIDENT,ASSOCIATED BUILDERS AND CONTRACTORS, INC., CUMBERLAND VALLEY CHAPTER...................... .... 63
RICK BLOOMINGDALE PRESIDENT,PENNSYLVANIA ALF-CIO........................... .... 75
KEVIN CLARKEIMMEDIATE PAST PRESIDENT,BUILDING OWNERS AND MANAGERS ASSOCIATION, PITTSBURGH...................................... .... 83
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SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY
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(See submitted written testimony and handouts online.)
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P R O C E E D I N G S
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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning, everybody.
ALL: Good morning.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Glad to see you all here
on this wonderful breezy morning.
We do have a room in the Irvis Building. It’s
Room G-50 that if you would like to sit down and be
comfortable, you may attend there. There will be monitors
that you can watch the hearing if you’d so like. So feel
free to just go on down to G-50. Or if you’re comfortable
and we’re not obstructing the fire codes, you may stay.
That’s okay.
Now, the prime sponsor of the bill is going to be
late, so when he comes, I will introduce him, and I know he
does want to say a few words. He had snow in his area, so
he’s got a little bit of a late start and it was a little
rough coming in. But he will be here hopefully.
And the hour of 9:30 a.m. having arrived, I would
like to call to order this meeting of the House
Professional Licensure Committee to order. I also would
like to address my counterpart, which is Chairman Harry
Readshaw. He is my counterpart on the Democratic side.
And, Mr. Readshaw, if you would like to say a few words to
the group, you may do so.
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DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Thank you, Madam
Chair.
I would just like to take a few minutes to
obviously welcome and thank everybody for their attendance
today. It’s a nice crowd, a good crowd. I’m sure
everybody’s concerned about the topic. And a particular
thanks to those who will be testifying. So once again, our
great thanks for your attendance and for those who are
going to testify. And I’m sure we’ll have a very
informative hearing.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
Okay. And the first order of business, I would
like to ask -- now, we’re going to do it this way, a little
bit different. I’d like to ask each of the Members of the
Professional Licensure Committee to introduce themselves
and state where they’re from. Okay. And we’ll start down
with you, Representative Kortz.
REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good morning, everyone. My name is Representative Bill
Kortz. I’m from Allegheny County, 38th District.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Good morning. Curt
Sonney. I represent the Fourth Legislative District, which
is eastern Erie County.
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Good morning. Rosemary
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Brown. I have Monroe and Pike Counties, which is the 189th
District.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Good morning. Jamie
Santora, Delaware County, the 163rd Legislative District.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Good morning. Tina Davis,
Bucks County. And welcome.
DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Representative
Harry Readshaw, Allegheny County, 36th District.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Julie Harhart, 183rd,
Lehigh, Northampton Counties.
REPRESENTATIVE DAY: Gary Day, the 187th
District, Lehigh and Berks Counties.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: David Millard, 109th
District, Columbia County.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Now, we are
holding this public hearing to take testimony on House Bill
1357 finally after four times that I know I had to cancel
the Committee meeting. And I do apologize for that, but it
couldn’t be helped. And this legislation establishes a
State licensing program for plumbers.
So I welcome and thank all of you for coming.
And, as I said, the prime sponsor is not here yet, but when
he arrives, I will introduce him.
But we will start with the first panel, and if
you would all please, the first panel, come and sit at the
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table there. Take those chairs. And it’s Walter -
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Krzyzanowski.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Krzyzanowski. Okay.
You’re the President of the Plumbers Local 690; John Kane,
Secretary-Treasurer, Plumbers Local 690; Martin O ’Toole,
Business Manager, Plumbers Local #27; Michael McGraw,
Executive Director, PA PHCC, Plumbing-Heating-Cooling
Contractors Association; John Cummins, President, J.W.
Cummins Plumbing, Inc.; and Kevin Glasson, President,
McIntyre Plumbing & Heating. Welcome, gentlemen.
Okay. So I believe each of you are going to give
testimony? Okay. So I don’t care how you start if you
want to start on this end or this end and just go right
through, and then after everybody gives their testimony,
then we’ll open up for questions, okay?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Good morning, Madam
Chairwoman, Chairman Readshaw, and the Members of the
Licensure Committee. Thanks for hearing our testimonies
today.
This is the testimony of Walter Krzyzanowski.
I’m the President and Executive Director of the Plumbing
Contractors and the Union Affiliated Contractors of Local
#690. I’m also a licensed master plumber in the City of
Philadelphia #2749. I’m a member and trustee of Plumbers
Union Local 690 in Philadelphia. I am a member of the
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Executive Committee of the State PA PHCC and I’m a past
two-term President of that organization. I’m a former
President and owner of Krzyzanowski Plumbing, Inc., a
commercial plumbing company in Philadelphia, PA.
My name is Water Krzyzanowski. I am the
President and Executive Director of the Plumbing
Contractors and the Union Affiliated Contractors of
Plumbers Union Local #690 in Philadelphia. Thank you for
hearing my testimony and accepting my written testimony in
support of House Bill #1357, the State licensure for
plumbers.
My involvement in the plumbing industry is very
extensive, dating back almost 50 years. I have been
involved in every and all areas of the plumbing industry
from design, installation, sales, education, and now
leadership. I am now and have always been extremely proud
to hold the title of master plumber and follow in my
father’s footsteps through a proud plumbing business, which
he started in 1956. I am proud to say that my son, a
third-generation master plumber, now runs this company. I
have another son well on his way to becoming a master
plumber as well.
My knowledge of the plumbing industry is not what
we’re here to discuss today. What we are here to discuss
is the benefits of passing the legislation before you
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today.
Plumbing is often taken for granted. People
stand in front of their sinks, turn on the faucet, and
expect to find clean, safe water to drink, bathe in, and
wash their clothes in, and a whole host of many other
things without ever knowing the amount of technology and
work that is involved to make this happen. They also
expect the sink, bathtub, washing machine, and et cetera
will drain, without again ever knowing what it takes to
dispose of waste in a safe, healthy, responsible manner
without contaminating our environment.
Plumbing installations and repairs done
incorrectly could not only sicken people and pets but cause
loss of life. Through dangerous and illegal cross
connections in drinking water systems performed by
untrained, unlicensed, and unskilled people could have a
devastating affect on the health and safety of masses of
men, women, children and pets alike. This is evident in
the unfortunate situation that now exists in Flint,
Michigan, and many other areas of our State and country
that never make it into the media.
If passed, this legislation would add a
significant layer of protection for all consumers and
residents of the Commonwealth. It would enhance the State
Attorney General’s registration of contractors and would go
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a long way to ensure the health, safety, and economic well
being of everyone, especially the elderly portion of our
population, are protected.
This legislation is supported equally by
organized labor and open shop or nonunion portion of the
industry. The people representing these interests are
extremely proud of the relationships developed and mutual
respect shown in coming together for the common goal of
protecting consumers and protecting business interests of
all plumbers and plumbing contractors in the Commonwealth
of Pennsylvania.
This legislation would not disrupt or change any
existing practices of job or work permitting. This
legislation would not disrupt or change any existing
practices regarding jurisdiction or work assignments.
Pennsylvania is one of only six States in the
country that currently does not have a statewide license
for plumbers. It puts Pennsylvania plumbing contractors at
a disadvantage on several levels. Because Pennsylvania has
no uniform or consistent manner of licensing plumbers or
plumbing contractors, it is extremely difficult and in most
cases impossible for Pennsylvania contractors to perform
any work in the States that border Pennsylvania, who all
but one have statewide licensure.
Conversely, plumbing contractors from the
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surrounding States have the ability to enter Pennsylvania
and perform plumbing projects due to the fact that mostly
every township and municipality in the State of
Pennsylvania will recognize the credentials from these
States because of their statewide and state-mandated
plumbing license. These contractors come in from out of
State and often do not pay all of the taxes that
Pennsylvania-based contractors pay on a daily basis, such
as State and local taxes and local sales taxes.
Pennsylvania contractors employ local workers,
your constituents, and support the local and State economy
on a daily basis.
There is also an economic component to this
legislation. If passed, this legislation could be
responsible for millions of dollars on an annual basis in
licensing fees. As proposed, the State Board of Plumbing
Contractors would oversee licensing and be a self-
sustaining board. Under this legislation, only an $85,000
appropriation is being requested, which will be paid back
by the State Board. The additional monies could certainly
be put to good use by the State for programs such as after
school programs, daycare, and assistance to the elderly,
just to name a few.
While most areas of the business sector complain
about too much government in business, the plumbing
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industry is an industry asking for more government
interaction, recognizing it would benefit consumers and
business interest alike. Under this legislation, plumbing
contractors would be required to purchase only one license
to perform work in the State of Pennsylvania, as opposed to
purchasing sometimes thousands of dollars’ worth of
licenses to perform services in each borough, township, and
municipality. This alone would represent a significant
cost savings to consumers.
Under the grandfather clause contained in this
legislation, careful consideration was given not to
adversely affect any person or persons currently providing
plumbing services that do not otherwise have any licensing
rules in the area of the State in which they work in.
Today or in the future, the Licensure Committee
may hear testimonies, views, and opinions from other groups
or organizations that represent little or no plumbers or
plumbing contractors. Although these groups have a right
to be heard and a right to their opinions, the plumbing
industry has met and considered the concerns of all groups
that have expressed concerns and have made many language
changes to the legislation over the last 10-plus years to
accommodate the concerns raised by these groups.
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania requires State
licenses for many things from hairstyling, cosmetology,
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auto sales, interior design, and massage therapist, just to
name a few. Just about every trade or business that
requires a State licensure has a State Board. Recent
legislation was passed to ensure things like styling hair,
selling automobiles, and the training of hunting dogs are
done correctly. The plumbing industry feels that it is
time to regulate and oversee something that can sicken or
even kill you or a member of your family.
The universal motto of the plumbing industry
dating back to the 1800s is "The plumber protects the
health of the Nation." We as professional plumbers feel
the same sense of duty as our elected officials to protect
the public. Please help us in our mission in passing House
Bill #1357.
Thank you for allowing me the time to express my
views and opinions and the views and opinions of my members
and the entire plumbing industry. Respectfully submitted,
Walter Krzyzanowski.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,
Mr. Krzyzanowski.
Who will go next? Would you mind stating your
name?
MR. MCGRAW: Michael McGraw.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Michael.
MR. MCGRAW: Madam Chair, Chairman Readshaw, and
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Members of the Professional Licensure Committee, my name is
Michael McGraw, and I am the Executive Director of the
Pennsylvania Association of Plumbing-Heating-Cooling
Contractors, PA PHCC. I am also a master plumber.
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to
provide you my testimony in support of H.B. 1357.
As you will hear today and from other written
testimonies submitted to this Committee, there are many
reasons, and they are all reasons which only make sense,
that this be legislation in the Commonwealth. First and
foremost reason, plumbing contractors should be required to
have a license to provide plumbing services to the
consumers of this Commonwealth is to protect the health,
safety, comfort, and environment of Pennsylvanians and the
millions of visitors each year who come to Pennsylvania
because of its history.
Safe drinking water and proper disposal of
sanitary waste cannot be provided by the average person. I
am sure that in your professions there are many variables
and extended education needed to hold the titles that you
have, and the average person would not know those
variables. Sure, some people decide to represent
themselves in the court of law, do their own taxes, work on
their own vehicles and cut their own hair, but that does
not make them lawyers, accountants, auto mechanics or
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beauticians. Why? Because in Pennsylvania you cannot
provide these services without having received a degree or
license that says you are qualified to provide them.
Plumbing is no different. The average person may
be able to repair certain plumbing problems, but ask that
same person how many fixture units can my house sewer
handle, what is the maximum temperature a water heater can
deliver hot water at my faucet before requiring a mixing
valve, what is the maximum distance for a trap arm before
you need a vent, and what is the difference between a vent
stack and a stack vent? Just as in your professions, they
would not know the answers because these people have not
been properly trained and educated on the safe installation
and operation of an entire plumbing system.
Plumbing installed incorrectly can injure,
sicken, and even kill people. The plumber’s motto, as you
just heard is "The plumber protects the health of the
Nation,” and we are very proud of that as professional
plumbing contractors.
Pennsylvania borders New York, Ohio, West
Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and Delaware. Only one of
these States do not require a plumbing license. Out-of
State plumbing contractors cross the bridges and State
lines into Pennsylvania and are bidding on and doing work
in our State. They are taking jobs away from Pennsylvania
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contractors who do not have the same ability to cross the
same bridges and State lines to bid on and work in those
States because they will not recognize a Pennsylvania
plumbing contractor as a qualified and professional
contractor because they do not possess a State plumbing
license. It doesn’t seem fair, does it?
This is not a level playing field. With a State
plumbing license, we would have the ability to refuse out-
of-State contractors if that State did not reciprocate with
us. Don’t we want our contractors to be given the same
opportunity across State lines that Pennsylvania gives out-
of-State plumbing contractors in Pennsylvania?
This legislation, once enacted, would generate an
estimated $2 million every year in additional revenue to
the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. We are only asking for
an $85,000 appropriation which would pay itself back in the
first year of enforcement.
This legislation may be new to some of you, and
it is not so new to many of you sitting up there. This
legislation has been around the last five legislative
sessions, and that is 10 years. In those 10 years, the
plumbing industry has met with and sent many letters to
Senators and Representatives seeking support of statewide
licensure for plumbing contractors. We have met with many
special interest groups, and over those 10 years we have
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amended language, we went from a "practice act" to a "title
act," extended effective dates, and expanded the
grandfather clause.
I represent all open shop plumbing contractors.
As we do not agree with all labor policies and labor does
not agree with all our policies, but when there is
something that we both agree on which will benefit our
contractors, and more importantly, as I mentioned before,
protect you, your families, and the rest of the
Commonwealth, we come together and lobby together. I ask
that you would support this legislation for all the right
reasons, not because you are a Republican, a Democrat,
labor-friendly, not labor-friendly but based on the facts
presented before you here today.
Thank you for allowing me to present my
testimony.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Mr. McGraw.
Who next?
MR. KANE: I guess I’ll do it.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Would you please
state your name?
MR. KANE: Good morning. My name is John Kane,
Business Manager of Plumbers Local 690, City of
Philadelphia and the surrounding area.
Good morning, Madam Chair --
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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning.
MR. KANE: -- Chairman Readshaw, and the Members
of the Professional Licensure Committee.
I’ll try to be as brief as I possibly can because
I do understand it is petition time and it’s a hectic time
of the year for you.
It gives me great pleasure to be here today to
discuss the importance of the plumbing license bill. And
let me stress the word "our." In all my years, I can’t
think of any industry coming together like our plumbing
industry. You have both union and open shop contractors
joining together and leaving our differences at the door
for two reasons: consumer safety and also our plumbing
industry’s future.
My plumbing career began in 1979. I always
wanted to be a plumber because my grandfather was a plumber
and he was killed in a ditch in 1958 before I was even
born. As a registered apprentice plumber with the City of
Philadelphia, in 1983, after serving four years as an
apprentice, I passed the Philadelphia journeyman’s test. I
was proficient in the trade and graduated to the status of
journeyman plumber. In 1991, I continued my education to
become a master plumber by passing a detailed pipe sizing
diagram and fixture unit value chart. This may sound Latin
to you, but in our industry, when you achieve this title,
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you also earn respect.
I continue to be a registered master plumber in
the City of Philadelphia, #4190. I am also certified in
backflow, brazing, Gastite, process safety management,
foreman training, first aid CPR, and rigging and signaling
just to name a few. I just recently just got my OSHA 10.
Why do I tell you all of this? Because it’s
important for you to understand that I chose to make this
my career and to become the best plumber I can be just like
thousands of others throughout this Commonwealth. When you
look across this table, we represent thousands of plumbers
in this great State. We represent union and open shop
contractors. We came together to put our differences to
the side and realized as plumbers it is our job to protect
the health of the Nation.
Our concerns happen to be for the people you
represent, your constituents, the consumer. It is alarming
what can take place when an unlicensed or unqualified
individual is hired. I am here today warning our elected
officials if we continue to go down this road of allowing
unlicensed plumbers to perform plumbing, we will continue
to have more cases of Legionnaires’ disease over the next
few years. Just this past summer, there was a
Legionnaires’ case at West Chester University where my
daughter attends.
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Erin Brockovich, the legendary consumer advocate,
recently reported Pennsylvania has 16 cities complaining
about its drinking water. And we recently just saw what
took place in Flint, Michigan.
Speaking of Flint, Michigan, I would like to make
you aware of the fact that 18 cities in Pennsylvania
reported higher levels of lead exposure than Flint. And
let me say that again, and I want to be perfectly clear
with this, 18 cities in Pennsylvania reported higher levels
of lead exposure than Flint. Flint, Michigan’s level of
lead was 3.21 milligrams per decaliter. The 18 cities are
Allentown, 23.1; Altoona, 20.4; Scranton, 19.4; Johnstown,
18.3; Reading, 16.1; Easton, 15.8; Bethlehem, 14.3;
Chester, 13.7; Wilkes-Barre, 13.2; Lebanon, 12.9; York,
12.4; Harrisburg, 12.6; Erie, 12.1; Williamsport, 12.0;
Norristown, 11.8; Lancaster, 11; Philadelphia, 10.7; and
Pittsburgh, 8.3. I’d like to remind you Flint, Michigan,
was 3.21 micrograms per decaliter.
I’d also like to let you know that I congratulate
the 400 brothers and sisters of the plumbing industry from
Lansing, Michigan, who donated their time to change our
faucets and water filters to the residents of Flint,
Michigan.
I also want to let you know that over the past
years our colleagues here have worked with other trades and
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the labors in particular in Philadelphia to make sure that
they were comfortable what we have, and they are.
In closing, I congratulate my colleagues for all
their hard work. I would ask our elected officials to
understand and recognize our plumbing industry. Whether
it’s union, whether it’s open shop, the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania is in desperate need of a statewide plumbing
license.
That being said, I thank you for allowing me to
testify today. Respectfully, I request your support for
House Bill 1357. Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you, Mr. Kane.
And, Mr. McGraw, I agree with you. This is not a
partisan issue, not a Democrat, not a Republican. That’s
why we’re having this hearing today and we have a whole
mixture here of Democrats and Republican who are very
concerned about drinking water in their areas. And
listening to what testimony you just gave, I don’t know,
should we be drinking water or -
MR. KANE: Look what I’m drinking.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Bottle of water?
MR. KANE: That’s right.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: But I would like to
announce also the presence of Representative Keith
Gillespie, who just entered; and the prime sponsor, Jim
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Christiana, who made it all the way in from Beaver County
through the snow. Now, Jim, if you like, you can give your
opening remarks, and then we’ll continue.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Well, I think the
best advocates for this bill are those sitting at the
table, so I won’t stand in the way of their testimony for
very long. But I want to thank you, Madam Chair, for
having this hearing and being so accommodating and having
such an extensive list of testifiers.
I’d also like to thank Chairman Readshaw for his
continual work with your office and Members on both sides
for having these hearings and making sure that the
Committee is well versed on the issue. And I do think this
Committee is a great example -- under your leadership,
Madam Chair and Chairman Readshaw’s leadership, this
Committee is a great example of bipartisanship time and
time again because a lot of these issues almost unanimously
get resolved on a bipartisan basis, and that’s a testament
to you and the minority Chairman as well. So thank you,
and I look forward to the testimony. And gentlemen, thank
you for being here.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,
Representative.
Okay. Who’s next?
MR. CUMMINS: Madam Chair, my name is John
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Cummins. I’m a plumber over in Allegheny County. Chairman
Readshaw, Members of the Professional Licensure Committee,
thank you for hearing our testimony today.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And can you speak into
the mike? Is it on?
MR. CUMMINS: Yes.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes. Okay. Don’t be
bashful -
MR. CUMMINS: I won’t be.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — just right there.
MR. CUMMINS: Not my strong suit.
I’m here today as a plumber from Allegheny
County. My name is John Cummins. I own J.W. Cummins
Plumbing. I’m located in Freedom, Pennsylvania, which is
in Beaver County. I have owned and operated my business
for 25 years.
I am also the President of AMPAC, which is the
Associated Master Plumber of Allegheny County. AMPAC
operates a plumbing school, which currently enrolls 230
apprentices in our apprenticeship program. This
apprenticeship is a four-year program, and the students are
required to obtain 576 passing school hours in conjunction
with 8,000 working hours to be eligible for the Allegheny
County Journeyman plumber’s exam. I also hold a chair on
the Allegheny Plumbing Advisory Board as one of two of the
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master plumbers of record. I can sit here and speak for
over 2,000 plumbers in Allegheny County and journeymen.
I have come here today as a concerned business
owner and a resident of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in
seeking support in the passing of House Bill 1357.
In Allegheny County, I possess a master plumber’s
license. I also have certifications in ASSE backflow
prevention, DOT gas line installation, NASSCO sewer line
inspection. All of these certifications are required to
perform work in the community in which I service. However,
there is no State plumbing license or requirements outside
of a handful of communities at this time to protect the
consumers in the State of Pennsylvania.
Having no regulations requiring education and
certified plumbers endangers the Commonwealth and the
residents of Pennsylvania as a whole. Our responsibilities
as certified plumbers are to provide safe drinking water to
all consumers, as well as to protect the environment, to
dispose of waste in a safe and ethical manner. The mantra
of the plumbing trade, as you’ve heard many times here is
"plumbers protecting the health of our Nation."
Under this proposed legislation, the revenue that
would be generated will financially influx into the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the additional income can
supplement other government programs. The neighboring
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States require mandatory State licenses with continuing
education annually to conduct plumbing in their
communities. For example, Ohio plumbers whom have met
their State requirements can come into the majority of the
communities in the Commonwealth and perform work.
However, I am not permitted to go into another
State due to the lack of a nonexistent State licensing in
Pennsylvania unless I have taken that State’s certification
and earned their license. I am unable to reciprocate with
the surrounding States. It is very difficult to compete in
today’s ever-tightening job market with States that already
have this type of legislation as a requirement to perform
plumbing in their State.
It would level the playing field if the State of
Pennsylvania if we implemented a State license. The
protection to the residents of the Commonwealth by having a
State license will ensure that proper trained and education
and educated individuals will be installing and maintaining
the plumbing systems in our State.
I support the grandfather clause being
implemented to ensure that the current plumbers in our
State are able to continue as they have in the past, and
give them the opportunity to acquire the continuing
education that will be needed to meet the requirements of
the State licensing.
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In closing, I’m here today asking for your
support in the passing of House Bill 1357. This bill will
protect the communities in the Commonwealth, as well as
leveling the field for business owners like myself, and
ensure the safety of the environment. Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Next?
MR. O ’TOOLE: Madam Chair Harhart, Chairman
Readshaw, and Members of the Professional Licensure
Committee, I want to thank you for letting me do my
testimony today.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And your name is?
MR. O ’TOOLE: My name is Martin O ’Toole, and I am
the Business Manager of Plumbers Local Union 27 in
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, for the last four years and a
member for over 30 years. Before that I served four years
in the United States Air Force as a plumber. I currently
sit on the Allegheny County Health Department Advisory
Board as Chairman.
I and many of my members hold certifications in
medical gas installation, brazing, ICRA, backflow
prevention installation and testing, DOT gas service
installation, plastic fusion and many more. Plumbers Local
#27 has approximately 1,200 Allegheny County licensed
active and retired plumbers.
Both union and non-union’s interests have been
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working on this bill for 10-plus years so that our industry
stays strong. We are one of six States in the country that
does not have a State licensing for plumbers who protect
the health of the Nation. But on the other hand, we make
sure your barber or hairstylist are licensed. To me that
is ridiculous. When a mistake is made in a plumbing
application, it could lead to sickness and death. When a
barber makes a mistake, you walk around for about a week
with a bad haircut.
This bill would protect the residents of the
Commonwealth and ensure that if they have a problem in
their plumbing systems, they will get a trained, licensed
plumber who has completed an apprenticeship and has moved
onto journeymen status, not some handyman who, last week,
was cutting hair.
Economically, this bill will help the
Commonwealth, contractors, consumers, and end users. It
will also create equality for Pennsylvania plumbers.
Pennsylvania boarders six States, of which five have State
licensing for plumbers. This allows bordering States to
come into Pennsylvania and compete for work but prohibits
Pennsylvania plumbers from working in their State, which
requires a State license. We need to fix this issue so we
can be competitive and keep costs down for the consumer and
the end users in Pennsylvania.
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We have many people that we’ve sat and talked
with, myself and with the Laborers in Pennsylvania and
western Pennsylvania, sat down before we brought this bill
to you to work with the Laborers in that because they had a
little bit of a problem with it. I gave them the bill, my
counterpart in western Pennsylvania, took it to his legal,
went over it, sent it back, and told me they are fine with
this bill and to go ahead and move it for us.
So in closing, I am asking for your support in
passing House Bill 1357. To me this is a no-brainer
because it’s better protection for the residents of the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And like I said before, the
plumbers do protect the health of the Nation. Thank you
very much.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
MR. KANE: That is one lousy haircut you got,
though.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes, you know, being a
barber or a hairdresser, you get a bad haircut, they better
run, you know? They could be in danger.
Next is last but not least, Mr. Glasson.
MR. GLASSON: Good morning, Madam Chair. Thank
you for having us here today. And, Committee Members,
thank you. We know you guys should be home taking care of
some business at home, but you stayed back today for this
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hearing, and we greatly appreciate it.
My name is Kevin Glasson, and I am the owner of
McIntyre Plumbing, Ben Franklin Plumbing, the Punctual
Plumber, and One-Hour Heating and Air-Conditioning. I am
also a licensed master plumber in Bucks County. I passed
my master plumber’s exam in 1985 in Bucks County. I also
hold a master plumber’s license in the City of
Philadelphia, and I am a State of New Jersey-licensed
master plumber.
Also, I hold a State Director position for the
Bucks County area for the Pennsylvania PHCC, and I am a
member of the Associated Building Contractors, the ABC.
Also part of my community service, I have been involved in
the volunteer fire department for over 25 years. It has
been in our family. I’m one of five brothers and sisters
that have been down this road in the fire department. I
sit on the Board of Trustees. I’ve been there for 18
years. I have been the Chairman for the last three years.
Madam Chair, if it’s okay with you, with my
testimony, you know, if I sit here and try to read it, I’m
going to probably bungle it up a little bit. So if I
deviate, is it okay?
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, absolutely.
MR. GLASSON: All right. I’d rather just talk
from my heart. I kind of know what’s here on paper so --
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MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: No, that’s fine.
MR. GLASSON: -- if you’re okay with that.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Absolutely.
MR. GLASSON: I just want to give you a little
bit of a background on myself. I come from 12 brothers and
sisters. We’ve had a tough time. I lost my father when I
was seven years old. My mother came down with multiple
sclerosis when she delivered our last sibling, and so times
were tough for us.
One of the things when I got into high school, my
brothers, they were all tradesmen. They all went to the
tech school in Bucks County. So I would like to follow in
their shoes. So back in the day, some of you guys, maybe
the younger guys may not know this, but back in the day we
used to go to home school for two weeks and then we go to a
trade school for two weeks. I wanted to take up a trade
but I thought I can go to the tech school because I can get
out of home school for two weeks and maybe that’s not as
bad as being in the home school. My home school was Bishop
Egan. Our trade school in Bucks County was the Bucks
County Tech School.
So when you’re a freshman in high school, you can
apply to the trade school and pick two choices in the
school. Back then, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. I
just knew I didn’t want to stay in home school every day,
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so I picked carpentry and small engine repair. So end of
freshman year I applied and, unfortunately, towards the end
of freshman year they send out letters if you have been
accepted or not. I received a denial letter, and I was a
little upset. I really wanted to go to the trade school.
As I said earlier, my brothers all were in the trade,
different trades.
So actually one day I was a little upset. I got
on my bike. I was off from Bishop Egan High School. I was
15 years old and I pedaled my way up to the tech school and
I went in and I asked if I could see an administrator. And
they put me in a room and I waited there. Two gentlemen
came in, Mr. Art James and Mike Schmeg. They were the two
administrators at the time at Bucks County Tech School.
So I told them that I was a little upset that,
you know, I didn’t get into the tech school and I wanted to
know if there was any other availability, other shops. And
they did. They told me that there was a few. The first
couple shops really weren’t my liking. One was baking, one
was horticulture, and one was cosmetology, and I really
didn’t see myself there. One of the last ones they said
was heating and ventilating. I said, you know, I think I
would be interested in that. At that time my brother Joe
actually was in that shop.
So Mr. James and Mr. Schmeg said, hey, you took
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the guts to come up here and question us. Would you like
to sit in the class? I said, you know, if you wouldn’t
mind, I sure would like it. So that day they took me down.
I sat in the class and I actually enjoyed it. I said, you
know, this is something I would like to take up.
I met the instructor that day, Bill Thistle. So
I went back to the office and I was able to go. They gave
me my letter. Sophomore year, instead of just being in
home school, we had two weeks of home school, two weeks of
tech school. I started my journey there in tech school.
And my instructor that day when we started, Mr. Thistle -
you never know what life brings you. You never know what
person is going to touch your life. That gentleman that
day when I started, he took me under his wing for whatever
reason, maybe because my brother Joe -- currently, my
brother Joe is in the room with us today.
We just hit it off and this Mr. Thistle took very
good care of me. He knew that I came from a family that we
lost our father and there was 12 brothers and sisters. So
towards the end of my sophomore year, typically, they try
to place some of our students in co-op programs.
Typically, being a sophomore, you don’t normally get
picked. You have to be a junior or a senior. I
demonstrated a skill that I really liked this trade, and
Mr. Thistle went out of his way to get me a position with a
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company in co-op.
So at that point the gentleman that gave me my
first opportunity as a plumbing apprentice, I seen him, he
walked through the door about an hour ago, John McHale.
Mr. McHale was good friends with Mr. Thistle at the time
and that was my first real experience in plumbing. Since
then, I haven’t looked back. I served my apprenticeship, I
did my three years at tech school.
I also enrolled myself into the night program my
senior year in high school I finagled my way. I think back
then it was illegal if you were still in high school you
couldn’t go to night school but I got my way into night
school. I was a senior in high school. I went to school
at night. After that, I worked and I went to the night
school program. I served my four years of apprenticeship
in the night program. I took my journeyman’s test. I had
my journeyman’s license. When I was in the school in I
believe it was my fourth year, my instructor John McIntyre,
he was a master plumber in Bucks County probably at that
point for about 40 years, he was having some health issues.
It became a joke in the fourth year apprentice, hey, John’s
going to sell his business; is anybody interested in buying
it? I said, yes, I’ll buy it. I live at home. I have a
couple dollars saved up. It was a joke.
Well, as time went on, it became real. I bought
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my first company in 1983, and I had to serve another year
of my journeyman’s until I was able to take my master
plumber’s license. I took that, I was successful, I
passed. I made my last payment to John at that time, and I
owned the company.
From there, we moved on. Since I’ve been in the
trade since then I have purchased seven other plumbing
companies since I’ve got into this industry. As companies
came along, small companies that wanted to get out, we -
myself -- when I say we, our company is a team, so when I
reference "we," it’s everybody in our company. We’ve taken
over seven companies and we’ve put them all together.
We’ve grown from 1983 when I first bought our first company
to today we have over 23 employees and a couple part-time
employees.
You’ve heard some testimony from my colleagues
here on some of the technical aspects, vent stacks, stack
vents, different things. Mr. Kane touched on the water
quality. We’ve talked on the economics of the bills, and I
would like to just dive into a little bit of the meat and
the potatoes. This comes down to the consumer. As I said
earlier, I hold my New Jersey State license. I took my
test in I think it was 1986 so -- I thought I was the young
guy on this board here, but they made me go last for
whatever reason.
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Speaking on the State of New Jersey license,
they’ve had that license since 1968, and basically it
protects the consumer, the constituents for you guys. We
can sit here and talk technical, but at the end of the day
there’s a lot of bad contractors out there. There’s a lot
of bad contractors out there. There’s a lot of people
going around saying that they’re plumbers and they really
are not.
Anybody can get a business card, put whatever
they want in the State of Pennsylvania. Some of my good
friends over in New Jersey, they call this the wild, wild
West. They can come over here, they can do electrical,
they can do plumbing, they can do whatever they want. But
in our bordering State New Jersey, you can’t. You have to
be a State-licensed electrician, you have to be a licensed
plumber, and just recently in the last year, you have to be
HVAC.
Over here, we need to make a serious change.
There are too many consumers today getting burned by bad
contractors. With this license, this would stop it. This
would give a layer of protection to the consumer, the
homeowner, the one that’s out there not knowing who the
legitimate contractors are.
If and when this bill is passed, you would be
doing a great service for your constituents. We’re not
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looking for this bill for the plumbing industry to be a
protected specialty. You know, this is not about us. This
is about the consumer.
I have a couple real case stories of the
consumers that I would like to touch on.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. But we are on a
schedule.
MR. GLASSON: Madam Chair, no problem. I
apologize. If I could just get through a couple quick -
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.
MR. GLASSON: -- real-life stories -
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I know the panel
wants to ask questions, too, so thank you.
MR. GLASSON: Just recently, we received a call
in our office from a senior. She stated that she had no
hot water. She just had a unit installed, a gas water
heater by a contractor that she has not been able to get a
hold of. We dispatched one of our licensed plumbers to go
out. During his evaluation, he found that someone
installed a gas water heater in the basement of this lady’s
home, never connected the flue. Okay. This is a gas-fired
appliance, no chimney. Okay. Pretty much everybody kind
of knows carbon monoxide is a silent killer. This
contractor told the lady she needed to open her basement
window for the unit to operate properly, okay? She was
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complaining. She complained to our guys that she was
feeling ill. This was a prime example. This could have
been a fatal incident because a contractor put something
like this in and explained to her that she needed to leave
her basement window open. So these are the kind of real-
life stories that are out there.
Another real quick story, Madam Chair, another
homeowner had a broken sewer line under the house, okay?
The insurance company got involved. We have to come in and
jackhammer the area and dig up. They hired another
contractor that they thought was a licensed plumbing
contractor. He was not. The people had to move out of the
house for two days. The people came back, checked why the
job was being done. The next day they came back. The
house was robbed and there was hypodermic needles laying in
the living room, on the ditch, and they were gone. And
these are the kind of contractors that are out there.
With this bill, we will have a list of who the
licensed contractors are. There’s language in there to
protect the consumer and so forth moving along.
So, Madam Chair, with that, I hope you guys
understand this is just not about the plumbing trade. This
is about the consumer. We need to protect it. We’ve put a
lot of time and a lot of effort into training ourselves,
training our employees.
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So with that, I’d like to close. I thank you for
your time. I really ask for your support on this bill
moving it forward.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
The panel would like to ask questions, so we will
start with Representative Kortz.
REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Madam Chair,
and thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony.
Mr. O ’Toole, I have a question for you, sir. In
your testimony I saw that you had mentioned that yourself
and many of your members hold certifications in the medical
gas installation and DOT gas service installation. That
sounds pretty serious. You’re talking about gas. Could
you explain a little bit of that, just what it would take
to get that certification and how serious that is?
MR. O ’TOOLE: Well, especially the medical gas is
very serious because that’s all in hospitals where you’re
working in a hospital. You’re dealing with all different
kind of gases from your oxygen, your medical air, your
nitrous oxide. So you have to know how to install it, and
there are so many steps to it. We teach our apprentices
over a six-month course on just getting medical gas
certifications and installation because you could kill
somebody. If you cross the gases in a hospital, you’ll
definitely kill somebody.
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Now, on the DOT side, that’s a gas coming into
your house, and gas that is coming from the street into the
house to where you need to be certified to be able to work
with the gas companies around the area. They just don’t
let anybody jump on them and put the gas lines in. That’s
what the DOT is.
REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. And if I may follow
up, Madam Chair, if this bill would pass for licensing and
you would be allowed to reciprocate and go into some of the
other States, this sounds like a very specialty field.
This is like the next higher level of plumbing if you will.
You would be able to participate in the hospitals in West
Virginia per se and -
MR. O ’TOOLE: As long as you have medical gas
certifications -
REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Yes.
MR. O ’TOOLE: -- yes. You can go ahead, and they
are doing it. Yes, you do well work in hospitals.
REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. Thank you, sir.
And I appreciate it. And I want to thank the prime sponsor
of the bill. It’s an excellent bill and I will be
supporting this. Madam Chair, thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Since you all
want to ask questions, do you just want to come right
around? Okay.
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REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: That’s Representative
Curt Sonney.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: You know, first of all,
several of the testifiers, you brought up the water
quality, Flint, Michigan, and then you read a pretty
extensive list of Pennsylvania cities. How many of those
Pennsylvania cities do you know that today require you to
have a license with that municipality? Do you know?
He’s mentioned Philadelphia. I know the City of
Erie requires you to be licensed with the City of Erie.
I’m going to assume that most everyone on that list
requires the plumbers to be licensed within those cities or
municipalities, and so I guess it just kind of rubbed me
the wrong way that part of the testimony where you try to
allude that if you are licensed that these kind of things
can’t happen, and I can almost guarantee that plumbers in
Flint, Michigan, have to be licensed, and that didn’t stop
that from happening either. That is way above your control
to be able to prevent those things. And, quite frankly,
most of that is people doing stupid things.
I understand where you’re coming from with some
of this. I still have a little bit of a difficulty
understanding how, if you are licensed, that in any way you
can prevent that person from claiming to be a plumber and
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doing a lousy job and simply going to another neighbor or
another community and doing it again. These kind of things
have always existed because there’s no real way to enforce
that other than some authority tracking them down if they
can find them. And so do you know how many municipalities
that are in this Commonwealth require you to be licensed
today?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: We feel about a third.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: And it’s mostly the
cities, I would assume?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: The larger municipalities,
correct.
MR. MCGRAW: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Yes. Yes. And so the
vast majority of the population has always been covered by
those municipalities, okay, we can say putting in
protections for their citizens, correct, that require
plumbers to be licensed.
And a lot of your testimony, talking about the
technical aspect of plumbing, and I absolutely agree, it
can be very, very technical. On the other side of the coin
in a residential setting, it’s -- quite frankly, on a
single residential home it is not that technical. When you
get into multiple larger homes, depending on where they’re
at, depending on the conditions, but I mean it becomes
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very, very technical. It does. And there’s no doubt that
you want somebody that is experienced and knowledgeable to
be able to perform that work.
Does not the Uniform Construction Code block a
lot of those unqualified people from doing shoddy work?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: So the Uniform
Construction Code today doesn’t account for any kind of
inspections on plumbing, and it doesn’t require that those
plumbing connections in the plumbing work is done in a
proper manner?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: It’s up to the individual
borough or township to adopt that rule for inspections.
And, Representative, if I may, the lead
contamination that Mr. Kane commented on is only one
component of levels of contamination that could be in
drinking water systems, especially in residential homes.
If plumbing systems installations are not done correctly in
the manner of coordinating the lines, when even a single
residential home is built, it could lead to bacterial
contamination within the drinking water system that will
remain there and not go away. That can remain there for
years and years and years unless those lines are properly
chlorinated during the installation process.
And I personally in all my experience doing
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installations over the years, I have never had one
inspector asked to see a report on the quality of the
drinking water in a residential home. That’s where you
have to fall back to the professional plumber that knows to
chlorinate that system. If somebody just wants to take a
step ahead and just solder his last joint, turn the water
on in that house and leave, it exposes the people in that
house to bacterial contamination.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Yes.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: So it’s not only in high-rises
and multifamily dwellings and commercial establishments.
It does become very technical even in single-family homes
to protect the health and safety of everyone.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: But again, you’re talking
about in new construction. If you can -
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I’m talking about anything.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: When you come in and do a
repair, I think that -- and believe me, I understand
exactly what you’re talking about, I do. What happens when
the city water system does a repair? Sometimes, they’ll
notify the people in the area, correct, to -
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Correct.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: — boil your water, don’t
drink the water because the chlorine within the system will
clean it out, but you have to give it time, right?
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MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: And then mains are usually
flushed before it reaches the residents’ homes. The reason
that alert is often put out is just as another layer of
protection.
REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: I don’t want to stop and
I don’t want to take all the time here either discussing
these different aspects. I guess the end result for me,
today, is that I still don’t personally see where the need
is. And I say that because I’ve never heard of in my area
-- I’ve never had people complaining to me about getting
bad work, having bad problems with water, everything that
you’ve described. I’ve never had any of those instances
brought to me.
And quite frankly, I was a general contractor for
10 years so I do understand this quite extensively. And
within those 10 years I didn’t really hear of any of those
problems. Now, granted, I don’t walk in your shoes, okay?
So I can absolutely understand how you would hear of those
problems and I wouldn’t.
So that’s all I have to say at this point in
time, but thank you, Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,
Representative Sonney.
Representative Brown?
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
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And just to tag onto what Representative Sonney
was talking about a little bit, you mentioned -- thank you,
first of all, for all of your testimony. It’s very helpful
-- the mention of the lack of reciprocal agreement between
the States. Obviously, my district is on the border of
both New York and New Jersey in the Pocono region, so we
have a lot of influx in and out, a lot of commuters, a lot
of people doing business among those different States. So
it was mentioned that in even the prior question the
attractiveness to our municipalities of a licensed plumber,
one-third I think you said.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Close to one-third.
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Close to one-third. So do
you find that there is definitely a lean more towards the
licensed plumber? I mean, is it definitely taking away
business? Is it something that our New Jersey licensees
are coming in and taking significant business from us?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Representative —
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: And then New York, too.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: -- significant business on a
daily basis. I mean, if time permitted, we have many, many
people in the plumbing industry here in the audience today.
We’ve had 70-plus pieces of written testimony submitted
today in support of this bill, and I believe if we had the
time to read them, mostly everyone would have the
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reciprocity component and contractors coming in from the
bordering States taking our work. I would think almost
every one of those 70-plus written testimonies would have
that in there.
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Okay. That’s something
that I think that I’ll be looking at very strongly, but
again, I still need some more information on that as well.
So thank you very much.
MR. GLASSON: May I have one second?
When we go over to New Jersey, they set up patrol
and they check trucks going over into New Jersey. So if an
unlicensed contractor from PA is going over to Jersey, he’s
getting caught. Guys from New Jersey coming over to PA,
it’s free game. I think out of this panel I’m the only one
that holds a New Jersey State license. Trust me, they
enforce the rule over there, very, very tight.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I believe Mr. McGraw can
elaborate if time permits that one of his members actually
had their truck confiscated at the bridge by the New Jersey
people.
MR. MCGRAW: And he had to pay a $10,000
privilege tax fee to them in order to get his truck back,
$10,000 he was fined. They were waiting on the other side
of the bridge.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: But again, those contractors
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come into Pennsylvania every day.
REPRESENTATIVE BROWN: Yes. And I’m amazed by
that type of enforcement because that’s difficult to do
just in general everyday life. But if I can get some more
information on that from any of you, I’d appreciate that.
Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Excuse me. I’m also with
the Jersey State police department, Pennsylvania State, and
Philadelphia. I belong to the New Jersey State Master
Plumbers Association, and we are actively prosecuting any
contractors in the plumbing industry that do not have a New
Jersey State plumbers’ license. You don’t have one in
Pennsylvania. I have my RCC, my ICC. Now, I have my New
Jersey State. My Philadelphia is generally to do
[inaudible], but New Jersey is actively prosecuting as we
speak.
George Burrell, who’s the plumbing inspector in
Camden, is the head of that region for our committee.
We’ll be meeting tonight, and actually, they’re going to
hear what I’m going to have to say about our meeting here
today, how it went.
But it seems impossible that you wouldn't have to
have a State license to engage and everything. Plumbing
isn’t just about water lines and drain lines. To have
somebody come in that’s not licensed is really a serious
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[inaudible]. I’m more [inaudible] about the money
[inaudible]. If you’re honest, you’re [inaudible] for
business. There’s no problem there. Competition is not
going to hurt it. But at least give us a shot, permit us
for the job that everybody else can do that we can’t. A
Jersey plumber can come into Pennsylvania and can do work
under their license, but you can’t take that license of
yours and get into Jersey if you want.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Thank you. Are there
different requirements in different municipalities in order
to get a license?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Different insurances
and -
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Insurances basically stay
consistent. Townships ask for minimum requirements. It’s
usually around $50,000 worth of general liability, which
mimics the State Attorney General’s registration.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: But there is not
necessarily a consistency -
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: — on what it takes to
get a license in those municipalities?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: No, no consistency.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And the companies that
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you represent in a sense -- I know you represent the
members, the men and women that work for these companies.
But how many municipalities could they be working in at one
time?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Well, I can share with you my
former company Krzyzanowski Plumbing that my son and my
wife currently run. Just to work in the Philadelphia and
five-county area, they spend on average of $6,000 a year in
individual licensing, and that is just to work in the
Philadelphia five-county area. If you expand that into the
outer parts of Bucks and Montgomery County, that could be
upwards of $10,000 just to work within a little bubble.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And again, with all
different requirements?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: With all different
requirements.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. So I’m licensed
as a real estate broker in Pennsylvania. I have one
license. It works for all of Pennsylvania. It doesn’t
matter if I’m in Pittsburgh, Delaware County, Philadelphia,
it doesn’t matter. If I do something wrong, I lose my
license to practice anywhere in the State. I can’t just
pick up and go somewhere else in the State.
What it sounds like to me, and just to make sure
I’m clear on this, they mess up here in, take my hometown
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Upper Darby, they could pick up and go to Bucks County and
really have no issue, just get a license in one of the
municipalities there and just go?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: They could go right next door
to Lower Merion, Upper Merion, and secure a license and a
permit and work in that jurisdiction.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. All right.
That’s concerning.
From everything I hear so far, and I’ll listen to
both sides, of course, but I think we've been waiting way
too long for something like this. And I understand people
do not want to do licensure. We keep adding licenses, I
hear. It's not a good thing. But this sounds to me -- and
it is people's lives. It is. Now, you've got me thinking
because I run the sink in my bathroom and it's foggy, I run
the sink in my kitchen and it's clear, and so obviously
today now I'm thinking there's something wrong. And did I
have the wrong plumber doing something?
So from everything I can see, I'm going to
support this bill. I thank the maker of the bill for
getting it back on the table and the Chairwoman for
bringing this hearing up front here, and hopefully, we can
get moving on this right away.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,
Representative Santora.
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I do want to say we do have everybody’s testimony
that they submitted, but we couldn’t get them into the
folders because there were so many of them. But we do have
them. Angie, are they in a box? So if anybody is
interested -- no, there’s more -- anybody interested, they
are there and you may help yourself, okay? Thank you.
Representative Tina Davis.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Thank you for your
testimony.
And Representative Santora asked the question
about the municipalities. I do have a question regarding
that. If I wanted to go to a township, do I have to show
them -- if I’m a handyman, do I get a regular -- what would
I get? Yes, just say it.
MR. MCGRAW: In relation to what you’re asking, a
handyman, as long as he is registered with Pennsylvania
with the Home Consumer Protection Act, he has $50,000 worth
of insurance, and he listed that he does plumbing,
electrical, carpentry, everything even though he never
learned all those trades but that’s what he claims he does,
they will issue him his permit.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. So that’s scary.
MR. MCGRAW: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Especially for seniors.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: It’s a very dangerous practice
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that most of the townships and municipalities are doing.
We as a plumbing industry have a committee that have been
actively visiting as many townships and municipalities as
we possibly can to educate them that the Home Consumer
Protection registration is simply that. It is not a trade-
specific license that proves proficiency.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. I’ll be quick.
Does the Department Of Labor and Industry support
this bill in Pennsylvania?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: Yes.
MR. MCGRAW: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Yes?
MR. MCGRAW: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: You met with them?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: As far as we know, yes. We
met several sessions ago. We haven’t met with the current
Secretary of Labor.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. I’d like to see
their support.
The last thing I wanted to ask was we have a
summary where -- and we all have kids in our neighborhood
that did things in the past, and in the bill it says you
can’t be convicted of a felony unless it lapsed. There’s
three different things: Five years have elapsed from the
date of conviction, he’s demonstrated to the board -- could
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you just go over that? If someone is in rehab and they’ve
seen a year or two of sobriety, they wouldn’t be able to
get a license?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: I believe — see, that was
inserted -
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: In this bill?
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: That was inserted in there at
the recommendation of the State of Pennsylvania and the
Commonwealth Department of Labor and Industry. I believe
that it goes to what level of the crime is. And I’m not an
attorney obviously, but there is felony first, second
class. There’s many degrees of crimes. Now, what we are
concerned with is, as Mr. Glasson said, someone like went
into -- and it was in your area, too, Representative
Davis -
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Of course it was.
MR. KRZYZANOWSKI: -- someone went in and -
someone that could expose the public to dangers. If
someone is convicted of larceny or a crime against a
consumer, I believe the State Board would certainly frown
on licensing that person.
Now, if it was a substance abuse issue, I believe
that that State Board would take that under careful
consideration because they cannot discriminate -- State
Board or no licensing board can discriminate against
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someone that would have a substance addiction as opposed to
a crime against a consumer.
REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS: Okay. Thank you. And I
support the bill.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Chairman Readshaw.
DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN READSHAW: Thank you, Madam
Chair. Just two brief comments.
The first comment directed to -- it’s not a
question; it’s just a comment -- Mr. Kevin Glasson. And I
don’t know whether this is significant or not, but I
believe you made a right decision in being a plumber
because I cannot even picture you as being a cosmetologist.
These hearings are a learning experience not only
for us but for those in attendance, and I just want to
point out one item, and I’m going to refer to Walter’s
testimony even though so many of you emphasized it and used
it in your testimony. On page 3, paragraph 4, when you
would explain Pennsylvania as one of only six States in the
country that currently does not have a statewide license
for plumbers, and you go on from there and then you state
the economic problems with not being able to go into other
States. I just want to point out, to me and I would hope
everyone here, that’s a very significant statement and
probably -- and I’ll speak for myself. I wasn’t aware of
that prior to this hearing. So thank you for stating that
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and restating that, and I thank you all for testifying.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative Millard.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you, Madam Chair.
We call a plumber, sometimes we get the jack of
all trades and the master of none, and I think that you’ve
highlighted that today. And, Kevin, we share very similar
humble beginnings, so I do want to tell you that.
But I think it’s important for you as a
profession to let this Committee know -- and you touched on
it somewhat, but I’d like to see additional testifiers
maybe go a little bit more in detail -- that there’s
different types of pipes out there, there’s different types
of settings. What you’re highlighting is the safety and
health of incoming and outgoing at the same time. And
there’s different standards that have to be met, ANSI
standards, you can’t mix certain types of pipes together,
some are plastic pipes and different -- schedule 80,
schedule 40, schedule 120.
And in your educating your members, your
apprentices, I’m interested in knowing how long a time that
they have to be an apprentice before they become a
journeyman, before they become a master? So that’s my
question to you. Thank you.
MR. CUMMINS: Do you want to answer that?
MR. MCGRAW: You go ahead.
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MR. CUMMINS: In the Allegheny County program,
which I’m the President of, you’re required -- on the open
shop it is 576 school hours and 8,000 working hours before
you’re permitted to or you’re actually qualified to sit for
the journeyman’s exam. In Allegheny County, once you
attain your journeyman’s status, you must work under a
master plumber for two additional years before you’re
permitted to sit for the master’s test to open your own
shop is the standard operating procedure. In our class we
run through cutting pipe, threading pipe, soldering pipe,
sweating joints, pretty much all the fundamentals.
The simplest way I can describe being a plumber
is like you’re a doctor. Everyone has a general license,
but then you specialize. Most of the shops specialize
either commercial, industrial, service, maintenance,
repair, you know, large stuff. After you leave our school,
that’s where you go. You specialize in your trade, but we
make sure that you leave our school with the fundamentals
and a clear understanding of the trade.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you. And I just
wanted to highlight to this Committee that this isn’t a
weekend venture here, that there’s a lot of time involved
here.
MR. MCGRAW: Right. And these programs -- our
program is the same in Delaware County, and they meet the
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Pennsylvania Department of Labor standards of
apprenticeship.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLARD: Thank you. Thank you,
Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
Now, did you want to go last, Jim, because Jaret
had a question.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: [inaudible].
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Representative
Gibbons.
REPRESENTATIVE GIBBONS: All right. The question
real quick is just I know a couple of you mentioned about
-- I believe Mr. Kane and I think one other person
mentioned about with the Laborers having local support, but
I know I’ve seen stuff before coming out from the
International about having concerns. Could you talk about
that local support from the Laborers and kind of explain
that a little bit?
MR. KANE: I have no problem explaining that if
you’d like.
REPRESENTATIVE GIBBONS: And I don’t care who
does. I know it was mentioned by a couple people on the
panel.
MR. KANE: Going back a few years ago, there
seemed to be an issue with the local Laborers with us going
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over the bill. I sat down with Ryan Boyer, showed him the
bill, showed him what we were actually doing, showing him
how all the changes that we had made. He felt comfortable
at that time. Why the International is fighting us on this
is beyond me. So I know locally in the Philadelphia area
we’ve worked well with the Laborers over this bill, and
they felt confident enough that it was able to move forward
and they weren’t going to fight us on it.
MR. O ’TOOLE: I also sat down with Phil Ameris,
who runs the Laborers in Pittsburgh, western Pennsylvania,
and we gave him the bill and everything, and he went
through his legal and everything with it, came back, they
had a few suggestions with us. We brought it back to the
board, went over it, fixed it up a little bit for them,
sent it back to them. They read it. Phil had no problems
with this bill whatsoever. He told me he’s fine with it.
He did not understand either why both the east and west
were good with it and there was still a problem.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
Representative Christiana.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you, Madam
Chair.
Oftentimes, the goal I’ve seen while serving on
this committee, the goal of those that are attempting to
establish licensure is to prevent mistakes and bad actors
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within their professions from tarnishing the industry and
to establish a baseline of expectations for an industry.
And while I think my colleagues did say there's a
reluctance sometimes to establish new licensures for
certain professions, I will say that while there may be a
reluctance, I am adamantly against meaningless licensure.
And in my opinion, while some municipalities may have a
real "license" in their area, what we're attempting here is
a real licensure program that puts real expectations in
place not just for the consumer but for your profession.
That is what attracted me to introduce this bill.
And then on top of that the amount of compromise
that has taken place over the last 10 years is pretty
remarkable and how the industry has taken labor versus non
labor and unions shop versus open shop, taken that debate
and completely thrown it out. I have to give you a
tremendous amount of respect for that.
You look no further than the bill in the makeup
of the board. The makeup of the board will be three
representing union shops and three representing nonunion
shops. And that's not a product of me; that's a product of
all of you working together over a number of years, and I
want to thank you for that.
I think it's extremely important, as you
mentioned from a consumer protection standpoint, that we
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act now for two reasons. One, I think the consumer without
a doubt understands and has a different level of
expectations when they call upon a plumber or they call
upon a licensed plumber. There’s no doubt I think that
changes expectations. And then when someone calls
themselves a licensed professional but it may not be as
meaningful as what we’re attempting to do here, I think
there’s a need to act right away. And somebody operating
in a pseudo-license by name only but not conducting
themselves in such a way I think is why we need to act
quickly.
This isn’t just we’d like to have this. This, in
my opinion, is we need to have this because of what Jamie
Santora was mentioning that different municipalities can
have different regulations and different expectations and
may not have any, and I think it is time that the State
step in.
And so in my opinion if folks are wanting to make
a better product, I’m more than happy to continue to find
ways to compromise and make this bill better, but inaction
in my opinion only protects the bad actors, it only stops
our folks from going into our surrounding States and
competing for business. Instead of being fined, let’s just
allow you to go in and compete and show the rest of the
States that we’ve got the best talent in the region. And
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like my colleague on the other side of the State, I want
you to be able to go into Ohio and other places, as well as
those that aren’t from Beaver County and want to go into
other States.
So I appreciate all of your testimony, I
appreciate the compromise, and most of all, I appreciate
the passion and dedication to act now and act meaningfully
because that I think is what really should drive this
conversation. This isn’t so much I want but a need because
of the consumer protection. So thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair, for the latitude.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your
presentations. Believe me, I’ve learned a lot. So, I
mean, if we have any questions, we know how to contact you
I hope, and naturally, you definitely know where we’re
located.
But since all the Committee is not here, I would
also recommend that you may talk to some of the Members,
both sides, to see what support you have to move this bill
and whatever needs to be worked on and changed because I am
known not to run bills unless they’re absolutely solid.
Otherwise, I don’t feel it would be right to run it and
have it fail. So any work that needs to be done on that
and you have the numbers to come out of Committee, I’d like
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the feedback on that.
But thank you very much for your -
MR. KANE: Thank you.
MR. O ’TOOLE: Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — for your testimony.
Okay. Our next testifier is William Seilhamer. It’s
President of the ABCs, Cumberland Valley Chapter. That’s
the Association of Builders and Contractors. Bill?
MR. SEILHAMER: Good morning.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Good morning.
MR. SEILHAMER: And thank you for having me here
this morning.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Absolutely.
MR. SEILHAMER: Good morning, Chairman Harhart
and Chairman Readshaw and other Members of the House
Professional Licensure Committee. My name is Will
Seilhamer, and I am the President and Chief Executive
Officer of the Cumberland Valley chapter of the Associated
Builders and Contractors based out of Hagerstown, Maryland.
We have members throughout West Virginia, Maryland, and
Pennsylvania.
In addition to my current role with ABC, I
previously worked as a licensed plumber for more than 44
years, holding a master license in Maryland, West Virginia,
and Virginia. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with
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you today about House Bill 1357.
The Associated Builders and Contractors is a
national construction industry trade association
representing nearly 21,000 chapter members. Founded on the
merit shop philosophy, ABC and its 70 chapters help members
develop people, win work, and deliver that work safely,
ethically, profitably, and for the betterment of the
communities in which ABC and its members work.
ABC’s membership represents all specialties
within the U.S. construction industry and is comprised
primarily of firms that perform work in the industrial and
commercial sectors. Within Pennsylvania, ABC currently
represents roughly 1,500 member companies across five
chapter regions.
The issue of a State plumbing licensure structure
is one that is of particular interest to our members since
a large majority of them are either engaged in the plumbing
industry themselves or are general contractors who
routinely utilize the services of plumbing professionals.
Because of this strong connection to the trade and our
association’s commitment to excellence across the skilled
trades in general, I want to make it very clear that ABC is
open to and supportive of a responsible, equitable,
statewide licensing structure for the plumbing industry.
Not only would statewide licensing improve the protection
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of consumers by establishing a minimum standard for
industry practices, but it would expand the growth
potential for our skilled trades, who could potentially
operate under similar standards throughout the entirety of
northeastern United States.
First, there are a few issues with the bill that
we have some concern with and things that you may have
already talked before I was able to get into the hearing,
so I apologize if I’m repeating some previous concerns.
First, this bill would do nothing to ensure a
minimum standard for the work performed by professionals
who opt not to label themselves as licensed plumbing
contractors. With myriad alternatives to choose from, such
as home improvement contractor or general contractor,
plumbing professionals who specialize or perform solely in
plumbing work could easily skirt the standards set forth
for licensed plumbing contractors.
Additionally, a number of local governments
across Pennsylvania already have licensing structures in
place such as the City of Harrisburg, the City of
Lancaster, Allegheny County, and the City of Philadelphia.
Each licensing structure carries a different set of
requirements for the applicant, ranging from a nominal fee
all the way to a complex competency testing mechanism.
Under H.B. 1357, individual municipal structures
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would be mostly eliminated. However, local governments
would still be permitted to charge businesses and
professionals a fee on top of the fees that would already
be required from the Commonwealth. This, in effect, would
impose increased fees on an aging industry rather than
reducing the economic burden.
While it is systemic of the issues created by the
Pennsylvania Construction Code Act, H.B. 1357 would also
allow additional restrictions within the City of
Philadelphia and Allegheny County where plumbing services
are tied to customized standards for those municipalities.
Not only does this concern erode the nature of a statewide
licensing structure, but it also creates a sharp divide for
industry professionals who practice within those
municipalities. Plumbing professionals within those
municipalities face a far greater burden than professionals
in neighboring areas just a few miles away.
House Bill 1357 creates other economic burdens on
the industry statewide by requiring fees of unspecified
amounts on virtually any individual who performs plumbing
activities. While a licensing fee on established
professionals would be dedicated to enforcement efforts, it
is particularly troubling that the bill assesses a fee on
apprenticeship plumbers.
You have a written copy in front of you. I'm
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going to skip over a few of these paragraphs because I
don’t need to read everything for you that you have in
front of you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: No, that’d be fine
because we are running over so -
MR. SEILHAMER: Yes. One of the major benefits
for ABC members, particularly in border areas and
especially for my area; I cover southern Pennsylvania near
the Maryland border, and our eastern chapter covers down
through Delaware and parts of Maryland -- would like to
work in the State of Maryland, so this reciprocity
agreement would be essential for our members to ensure that
they can bid in other areas such as Maryland, coming up
here to perform work.
Some of the concerns are that Pennsylvania right
now would allow Maryland to come up here. Your standards
are not as strict as they are in Maryland. I know you’re
addressing some of these in the bill, which is fine, but
there are some issues that may require additional training
for you to be able to come into Maryland and work as a
plumber.
For one thing, our journeymen plumbers, when they
go to take the test, have to prequalify as a backflow
prevention specialist before they can sit for the test.
There’s no mention of that in here. So even though you
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have a journeyman card up here or a master’s license, you
would not be able to reciprocate to Maryland until you’ve
met those standards for backflow prevention, and that is an
essential part of the health care for any -- for
residential and commercial buildings today.
Other than that, the reciprocity agreement would
have to be worked out between the two States. I’m sure
your Department of Labor and so forth could do that, and I
think that would be a great benefit to both of us.
With that, we’re in favor of the bill with some
minor changes, and we look forward to working with you or
the Committee to specify any way we can help you,
especially in the bordering States.
So thank you for allowing me today, and if you
have any questions, I’ll try to answer them.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Representative
Santora.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So you are in favor of
the bill overall; you just have some issues with it?
MR. SEILHAMER: Yes, sir. Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: That’s compromise?
MR. SEILHAMER: And I think they could be worked
out.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Because one of the
things I hear up here all the time is if you don’t
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compromise, you get nothing done. And I feel like what
I’ve heard is that this bill has taken a lot of compromise
over 10 years and has gotten to a point where multiple
groups support it, including members of your own
association.
And that’s why I’m just a little confused by it.
If we can improve anything, we can get to that first step,
this has been going on for so many years. We’ve got to get
to that first step, and those compromises -- we’re going to
have to take a look at it, but I’d like to -- I’ll read
your testimony in more depth and I’ll talk to the maker of
the bill and try to understand where you’re coming from.
But when I read the bill I think overall it’s a good
compromise bill.
And the reciprocity piece of it is one of my
biggest concerns. Now, I’m just -- and I know I’m just
going to go off here a little bit, but I am sick of
companies from other States coming in here and taking our
jobs. We need to make sure that our men and women are
working. That’s our number one responsibility. So union,
nonunion, labor-friendly, this is a good bill and we’ve got
to work together to get it done quickly.
So thank you for your testimony. I look forward
to reaching out to you and trying to figure out what it is
that would prevent you from fully considering support of
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this bill.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative
Christiana.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes. Thank you for
your testimony and taking time, just a couple follow-up
questions.
You had mentioned that there are -- you almost
sounded concerned that the bill didn’t go far enough as far
as the regulations, that we may need stricter regulations
in place to compete with Maryland. Is that correct? So
you think the bill should go further?
MR. SEILHAMER: Well, I’m not sure what the -
some of your training programs may cover the backflow
prevention, and I’m sure they do in one way or another. I
know our local chapter teaches it. But it’s actually a
requirement in Maryland before you sit for the test that
you have that certification. So you may already have it in
some form. I know there’s training available for it so it
would just have to be added to the bill to be able to
reciprocate.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Then you sounded like
there was some reluctance to allow the biggest two cities
in the Commonwealth to put stricter regulations in place,
higher expectations because it actually -- in the bill it
says that Philadelphia and Pittsburgh basically, who
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provides or will provide plumbing service in either a
county of the first class or a county of the second class
shall further be subject to any licensure requirement of
the respective county. So if they have additional
expectations, they would have to meet that. And you don’t
feel that that’s reasonable considering the magnitude of
that population and their level of expertise that they do
have?
MR. SEILHAMER: I’ve never worked in the City of
Philadelphia or Pittsburgh so I’m not familiar with all the
specific regulations, but I understand that they are more
strict than they are out in the rest of the State.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Which you would think
is a good thing? I guess my question is you would support
-- it sounded like you supported going even further but
then were opposed to the two biggest municipalities then
from doing it. Go ahead.
MR. SEILHAMER: I’m not opposed. I would like to
learn a little more about it so I understand how the rest
of the State is going to work with those larger
municipalities that have their own regulations now. They
may be stricter than what you have in the bill today. I’m
not sure.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And regardless, I
think even if they are, I think what we’re attempting to do
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here is to set a baseline of expectations, and if we have
to, once we -- which would be taking this issue 1,000 miles
and then we can talk about maybe improving it in the
future, but in the name -- as I mentioned earlier, in the
name of making a better product that we should -- you know,
inaction because we need to make a better product or go
further. I’m very reluctant to do that. So I look forward
to your specific recommendations on how we make the bill
better, but I do want to thank you for you pushing for the
bill and supporting it with some minor changes.
I guess, just could you generally go over the
areas or the specific concerns that you have so that we can
work on resolving them or at least getting you an answer -
MR. SEILHAMER: It’s pretty much in my testimony.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay.
MR. SEILHAMER: One of the biggest things is to
be standardized across the State and you can’t skirt the
issues, that the smaller contractors that would consider
themselves as a home improvement contractor be held to the
same standards as everybody else.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: But I don’t think
we’re regulating those, right? We’re only saying -
MR. SEILHAMER: Like I say, I missed some of the
testimony before I come in, so you may have already talked
about it.
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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, I guess my thing
would be if we're not licensing -- we're licensing
plumbing, plumbers. To deem yourself a licensed plumber in
Pennsylvania, you have to meet these expectations. If you
don't meet those expectations, I don't think we're saying
you can't call yourself a plumber or provide plumbing
service, right?
MR. SEILHAMER: I think I heard someone mention
when I first come in the door that if you have a home
improvement license, that that license covers certain parts
of electrical, plumbing, HVAC, that sort of thing. I don't
know how much that actually teaches a plumber under that
home improvement license.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: In the name of time
-- but I will -- I just want to say on the record, though,
that I look forward to working with you on specific
recommendations on the bill and would like to get to a
product that you can be totally in support of, but I
appreciate your efforts thus far.
MR. SEILHAMER: Absolutely. And like I mentioned
in my testimony, I have a master license in three States,
Virginia being one of the most strict. The test I had to
take for that is much harder than any other test I've ever
had to take. But the continuing education requirement is a
good thing, keep up with the changes to the code and that
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sort of thing, so I believe in that.
And I owned my own business for 26 years, and
every employee I hired, I hired either from a trade school,
right out of high school, and when they came to work for
me, they had to go through the apprenticeship program, and
I paid for it. So I believe in education, and I believe in
having a good, well-trained workforce. That’s what built
my company, and that’s what I believe in. So I think
you’re on the right path. It could be tweaked a little
bit, and we’re willing to work with you to do that.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay, Jim. You’re
willing to do that, then?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I’d be more than
happy to. Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Thank you,
Mr. Seilhamer.
MR. SEILHAMER: Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Anybody else have
questions before I -- thank you very much for your
testimony.
Abraham -- is it Amoros -- had to leave, so the
testimony that he has is in the packet, so you can read
that because I guess he had to be somewhere.
We also have Rick Bloomingdale. He’s the
President of the AFL-CIO. And if he’d step forward,
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please.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: Well, I’m sure you’ve heard a
lot of what I’m going to say, so -- our panel of plumbers
behind me, but I’ll go through it quickly. It’s all in
your -- know many of you need to get back to your
districts. You’ve got constituents who, I’m sure, want to
talk to you and you’re here in Harrisburg, and I appreciate
your taking the time to have this hearing. So again, it’s
three or four pages. I’ll read through it and then be
happy to answer any questions.
But good morning, Chairperson Harhart and
Chairman Readshaw, Members of the Committee. My name is
Rick Bloomingdale. I’m the President of the Pennsylvania
AFL-CIO, and here today on behalf of our affiliated labor
organizations representing over 800,000 members.
Thank you very much for this opportunity to
present testimony regarding House Bill 1357, the State
licensure bill for plumbers.
Pennsylvania is one of only six States in the
country that currently does not have a State license for
plumbers. Each of the States bordering Pennsylvania has a
State license, and because our State does not have a State
license or any other consistent method of licensing
plumbers, Pennsylvania contractors cannot cross State lines
into the sister States to bid or secure work on projects in
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these States. It’s very difficult for Pennsylvania
contractors to qualify and test in these States.
Conversely, most municipalities and townships in
Pennsylvania recognize and grant licenses to contractors
from the surrounding States with the knowledge that the
person has to meet all the requirements for their State
licensing structure.
A key component of this legislation is
reciprocity. This legislation would put Pennsylvania
contractors on a more nearly level playing field and give
the Commonwealth a mechanism to deny out-of-State
contractors the access in Pennsylvania if their home State
does not offer the same benefit to Pennsylvania
contractors.
The protection of current jobs and revenue
streams is very important to the Pennsylvania AFL-CIO, and
we trust that this legislation in no way jeopardizes them.
We certainly don’t envision this bill as jeopardizing
current plumbers’ jobs because of a very liberal
grandfather section that’s contained in H.B. 1357. Persons
currently installing plumbing in most cases will receive a
license without testing.
This legislation would not disrupt or change any
existing practices of work, jurisdiction, or job
assignments. We hope it would not disrupt or change any
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existing practices of job or work permitting. If a task
currently does not require a plumbing permit, the
requirements would not change under this legislation. To
be clear, H.B. 1357 deals only with who is legally
permitted to call themselves and advertise themselves as
licensed plumbers, and of course we believe those are the
folks who go through our accredited plumbers apprenticeship
schools, some of the best in the Nation, paid for by our
unions and their workers. This concept is supported by the
Pennsylvania AFL-CIO.
There are some noteworthy economic aspects to
H.B. 1357. Many companies spend thousands upon thousands
of dollars on an annual basis to purchase licenses in each
and every township, borough, and county in which they do
any kind of work. Under this legislation, one would pay
for one license that would be recognized statewide. This
would be a significant cost savings to the contractor,
consumer, and end user. If passed, this would potentially
generate millions of dollars annually for Pennsylvania in
licensing fees. However, we need to ensure that these fees
are shared with local governments that may lose fees as a
result of this act and that these fees are used to hire
inspectors to guarantee the safety of affected worksites.
Now, just to add an addition here, too many times
we’ve seen revenue streams moved around and we lose the
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ability to hire folks, right? They say, well, got this
money now; we’re going to put it somewhere else. We’ve got
to make sure that the money to issue the license, do the
training, that we continue to have the best system in the
State for our plumbers who want to work in this State.
Home Improvement Contract registration within the
State Attorney General’s Office is improved under this
bill. An additional layer of protection for all consumers
would be added. Consumers would have the ability to verify
by way of a State website if a person is licensed and
qualified to provide the services they are offering. It
would stop the dangerous practice by some townships and
boroughs of issuing permits to persons with an HIC number
and not a trade-specific license. This practice exposes
the consumer to great economic, health, and safety risk.
Indeed, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania a
person is required to have a State license to cut, style,
or braid hair, for example, but in the plumbers’ trade,
although piping systems can be done incorrectly and end up
putting the health of many people in jeopardy, in
Pennsylvania, there is no regulation. This legislation
will help to ensure that the rights, health, safety, and
economic well-being of all citizens of the Commonwealth of
Pennsylvania are protected.
The plumbing industry across the State has worked
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for over 10 years to obtain a consistent method for the
licensing of plumbers. The universal motto of the plumbing
industry worldwide is and has always been "the plumber
protects the health of the Nation." Plumbers, as
professionals in their craft, feel the same sense of duty
to protect the public and the environment as do our elected
officials.
And by the way, I would just add that they take
incredible pride in the skill and the work that they do to
provide services for the citizens of Pennsylvania, and as
many of you may have seen, over 300 plumbers went to Flint,
Michigan, for free to help folks install filters and other
safety devices to make sure that their water is as clean as
it could be. And I thank you for this opportunity to
appear before you. Any questions?
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: I told you it’d be quick.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Any questions? Jim?
Representative Christiana, do you have any?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Jim’s fine.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Jim’s fine?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Jim’s fine.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Well, thank you
very much for your -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I just have one quick
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one.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, well, you said you
were fine.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, no, I was saying
-- you said, Jim, Representative Christiana -
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Oh, oh, I’m sorry.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: — Jim is okay.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: So do you have a question?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you. Yes, I
wasn’t going to let you -- that was a good try, though.
You almost got rid of me.
Mr. Bloomingdale, just one follow-up to something
you alluded to. Both parties boast about the tremendous
opportunities in the skilled trades today from an
employment perspective, and whether you’re a plumber, a
steam fitter, across the board there’s a tremendous amount
of opportunity. Both parties are actually bragging about
that.
And when compared to the opportunities facing
students that are coming -- graduates from higher education
that are coming out with hundreds of thousands of student
loans and that degree may not even land them a job right
away, when compared with that and the opportunities in the
trades, it is becoming even more apparent the opportunities
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that are associated with the skilled trades. And
professionalizing this industry, as you had kind of alluded
to, in growing that opportunity in the skilled trades
starts with a statewide licensure, correct? I mean, if we
want to professionalize it and grow and grow the
opportunities, we must have a statewide licensure.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: That's correct, but they're
already professionals. You don't need -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Correct.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: -- to -- I mean, these guys, I
can't say -- I always call the building trades,
apprenticeship schools, it's like college for people who
are good with their hands not just their minds. If you've
ever been to any of their training centers, the amount of
knowledge that you have to have, I mean, these are
incredibly smart men and women who go through these
apprenticeship programs, but they're incredibly skilled
with their hands as well.
So, yes, we have the best-trained members in the
United Association -- well, I guess they're standardized so
I can't say in the country but certainly in Pennsylvania.
And their skills -- if you have a plumbers union card in
Pennsylvania, you can go to any State in the Nation and be
a plumber in that State as well because that card is as
good as that license. But in Pennsylvania we've got some
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quirks that we’ve got to figure, and I agree with you that
that’s a long way to saying yes. We need a statewide
license.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And I agree with you.
They are already professionals doing some of the best work
in the country, but there’s no way in Pennsylvania to
identify them separately than those that -
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: No.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- are not operating
at the talent level that they are. And so this is a way
for them to identify themselves and differentiate
themselves and as well as I think get a bill that should
have been put in place a long time ago but interest groups
weren’t as willing to compromise, and I think that’s a
credit to your members, as well as the previous gentlemen’s
members for getting this bill to this point, and a credit
to the gentlelady for being so tough on both sides to
compromise and get to the table. So thank you for your
testimony.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: And thank you, Representative.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you,
Mr. Bloomingdale.
MR. BLOOMINGDALE: Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: That was easy, huh?
Our next testifier is Mr. Kevin Clarke. He is
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the immediate past President of the BOMA Pittsburgh.
Hello. Welcome.
MR. CLARKE: Thank you. I’ll keep my comments
brief.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I appreciate it.
MR. CLARKE: Sure. And I will acknowledge that
you have my testimony, so a brief background on who I am
and who I represent. And good morning, everybody. Thank
you, Madam Chair, Chairman Readshaw. Glad to be here, rest
of the Committee Members.
As you said my name is Kevin Clarke, and I’m the
immediate past President of the Building Owners and
Managers Association of Pittsburgh, more commonly known as
BOMA. I’m also a past member of the Pennsylvania State
Review and Advisory Council Collaborative.
BOMA Pittsburgh, founded in 1919, is a federation
of BOMA International, which was founded in 1906. We’re a
very old, established organization. We have 17,000 members
who manage more than 10 billion square feet of commercial
properties in the United States that provides space for 44
million jobs. Together with BOMA Philadelphia and BOMA
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania BOMA chapters encompass 500
members and represent more than 100 million square feet of
built environment.
The impact of the commercial building industry to
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Pennsylvania on an annual basis includes contributing over
$7 billion to the economy, over $2 billion in new taxable
earnings, and supports more than 145,000 jobs annually.
And a lot of those jobs are with plumbers. And we are
happy to do that. We rely on the plumbers industry to
provide safe, secure, and code-compliant systems in our
building so we can provide a safe environment for our
owners and tenants and occupiers and services that support
those operations.
BOMA’s a big supporter in the code environment.
We helped develop the International Code Council back in
2000 and helped develop the new I-Codes, and we rely
heavily on the code environment to help us in our
operations and building of new buildings. So we’re very
sensitive to how the codes are adopted. That’s why I was
involved in the IRAC Board.
So not getting into too much, but I wanted to let
you know that today I’m here in opposition of House Bill
1357, and I’m in opposition for the following reasons:
We do agree that there should be government
oversight on the certification of plumbers and plumbing
contractors, and we recommend that the same result could be
easily achieved by following the existing process that’s
already established for the construction industry through
the Office of the Attorney General.
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We have a problem with the establishment of a
Plumbing Board because the authority that is developed, as
stated in Section 302.6 of the bill is ambiguous and will
allow the board to overreach authority beyond the law’s
intent and affect the current code. We’re worried about it
affecting the current code adoption environment, which
would deliver confusion out in the field between architects
and builders on what they should be doing and what we hire
them to do to build a space and put in plumbing systems.
We also have an issue with the establishment of
the Plumbing Board and the fees associated, as described in
the bill because obviously, as owners and operators of
buildings, those fees come down to us, so we are cognizant
of those costs and how it may or may not competitively give
us a disadvantage to other regions, other States, and help
maintain commerce and economic development in the area. We
need to be competitive. So any time there are fees that
are passed on to the building environment, it affects that
and we’re charged with making sure that we do the right
thing at the right time.
So for those reasons we have a problem with H.B.
1357 and would hope that you would reconsider your position
on passing the bill. And maybe -- well, not maybe, but we
would also like to be a supporter of any improvements to
the RAC process. We know that the Review and Advisory
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Council and the code adoption process needs some work here
in Pennsylvania. We feel that’s the proper way to control
everything downstream from the building construction and
development industry.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay. Thank you.
MR. CLARKE: Those are my brief comments. I’ll
be glad to answer anybody’s questions?
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Yes, absolutely. But
one thing, this is a public hearing, and we want to take
all the testimony, you know, everybody’s testimony. It
doesn’t mean it’s a sure thing for the bill to pass.
MR. CLARKE: Okay.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: There’s still work that
needs to be done, so let’s just make that clear, okay?
Anybody? Jim? Keith? Representative Gillespie?
REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: My mike is not
working, Madam Chairman.
And I don’t have a question for Mr. Clarke. I
was going through the packet here and I found quite an
array of pictures, and I’m wondering if anybody here was
responsible for those that I could maybe just have a one-
on-one with them because I have some questions regarding
whoever -- sir, if you could maybe touch base at the end of
the hearing, I’d like to go over some of these with you if
that’s possible.
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UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, sir.
REPRESENTATIVE GILLESPIE: Thank you, Madam
Chairman.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Representative
Christiana?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Thank you, Madam
Chair. And thank you for your testimony.
I just have a couple follow-ups to your three
objections. You disagree with the establishment of the
Plumbing Board because of the costs will be passed along,
but you’re supportive of the code environment. I mean,
code changes have a significant financial implication,
right, so you’re okay with -- maybe even more substantial
depending on the changes than establishing a statewide
board -
MR. CLARKE: The -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- could you further
explain how that cost gets passed on and how that’s going
to be meaningful.
MR. CLARKE: Well, certainly. Our support of the
code process, especially with the International Code
Council, is derived from the way that the ICC codes are
passed. They’re a large public hearing process, there’s -
now it’s an electronic voting process that gives everybody
opportunity to put their ideas and their needs and their
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suggestions to develop model codes, it’s controlled by the
International Code Council, and BOMA’s involved in that
process, so we make sure that there aren’t onerous codes
that get passed down to the States, to the local
municipalities. So we feel that that encompassing
oversight of the codes, we’re comfortable with that.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. But what does
that have to do with regulating the profession -- or, I’m
sorry -
MR. CLARKE: It doesn’t have anything to do with
regulating the profession.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. So my point is
then why bring that up as almost it’s an alternative than
to what we’re trying to accomplish here and why your
objections are somehow intertwined with the code
establishment process?
MR. CLARKE: Well, it’s they’re separate but
they’re related. Our problem is with the establishment of
a board and, yes, the main focus of the board is to have
oversight on how plumbers become journeymen -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Sure.
MR. CLARKE: -- masters. We don’t have a problem
with that, but the establishment of a board, it’s another
opportunity for that board -- and we’ve seen it in other
States -- to grow into a code establishment function.
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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. So then we're
into my second question, which is the authority of the
board -
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- the authority of
the board, which it seems to be your paramount objection,
right, because you said you support the idea of the
oversight on a certification of plumbers, just not through
the board process, and then you have concerns with the
authority of the board. So I want to talk about that.
Because the authority of the board, your objection to that
is based on the board somehow being involved in the code
enforcement -
MR. CLARKE: Eventually, it would, not in the
bill, but by fact of establishment of that, there would
have to be other legislations coming afterwards to make
sure that that board doesn't grow into something other than
what H.B. 1357 -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, I -- this
slippery slope argument, though, we just talked about how
the code in the -- what we're attempting here, like two
totally separate issues, and now this is like a pathway to
the board -
MR. CLARKE: To something bigger, right.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Right, which --
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MR. CLARKE: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Listen, there’s a lot
of people with a lot of agendas in this town, but the
legislative intent I think would be very clearly defined as
that is nowhere near the intent, and the intent is what we
just spent a couple hours talking about. But I understand
your concern, and if there’s a specific way that you can
recommend that we don’t overstep or we put protections in
place that this isn’t a board enforcement authority as
well, I’ll be more than happy to take your specific
recommendations on putting the protections in place so this
doesn’t happen.
Do you do work with plumbers that are from
Maryland and New Jersey? Do they come in for your members
and do work in Pennsylvania?
MR. CLARKE: Well, I can’t speak for my
counterparts in Philadelphia and in Harrisburg, but in
Pittsburgh -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay, Ohio. I forgot
that you’re from the western part of the State. Do you
have plumbers -
MR. CLARKE: Yes, that’s -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- that come in from
Ohio and do work in the city?
MR. CLARKE: From a plumber’s perspective?
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REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes.
MR. CLARKE: We stick specifically to BOMA
members, which are in the Pittsburgh area.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay. I guess —
MR. CLARKE: We do that because -- excuse me. We
do that because we want to make sure that the work that’s
being done is being done professionally, being done
correctly, so we use vetted providers.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: BOMA has a Pittsburgh
chapter but is a national organization, correct?
MR. CLARKE: It’s an international organization.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: International
organization.
MR. CLARKE: Made up of 94 associations out of
cities.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And then Pittsburgh,
you’re saying, the plumbing work that’s done for you in
Pittsburgh is only Pittsburgh BOMA members or could it be
an Ohio BOMA member?
MR. CLARKE: I’m not sure I understand the
question.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I said the work being
done in Pittsburgh -
MR. CLARKE: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- you said was being
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done by -- your plumbing work -
MR. CLARKE: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: — in your facilities
is done by a BOMA member.
MR. CLARKE: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: A Pittsburgh BOMA
member. Do you have a BOMA member that is from Ohio that
would come into Pittsburgh and do work?
MR. CLARKE: Well, that could be possible, but it
wouldn’t be practical out in the field because their costs
would be higher.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Because they have a
State license.
MR. CLARKE: Or the proximity.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Okay.
MR. CLARKE: Why would someone from Cleveland
drive to -- if our local plumbers here in Pittsburgh
couldn’t beat the price of someone coming out of State,
then that’s that particular vendor’s -- something we have
to talk about. It’s not about any law -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Yes, I guess —
MR. CLARKE: -- or any legislation that would
require that.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I guess I’m just
confused that if folks are coming in from Ohio and doing
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work in Pennsylvania for a reason, they would have -- and
your idea that a statewide license increases costs that
gets passed on, they would incur those costs. And so I’m
really skeptical of how much of a financial impact this
bill will have on your members. I guess I’m trying to
understand how to quantify that.
MR. CLARKE: Well, I don’t know the
quantification either, Representative. All I know is when
there’s government regulation that increases costs to a
certain industry, that cost gets passed down to the
consumer, and I represent a large consumer base. So
whether -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I can understand
that.
MR. CLARKE: -- it’s -- and I don’t know how to
quantify it if it’s -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: No, no —
MR. CLARKE: -- coming my way.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: Hey, listen, I’m a
fiscal conservative. I completely understand. I guess my
follow-up question to you then would be what are the costs
of having an unregulated industry essentially from a
statewide perspective, an unregulated industry when we
can’t differentiate those that perform at a high level and
have years and years of expertise and have gone through
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training versus those who just hang out a shingle and do
shoddy work and then it ultimately increases costs because
somebody has to come back and fix it and redo it. I mean,
you would see those examples, right, where you have to
spend more because somebody did a poor job. And maybe not
with your members or your consumers, but you could see how
other consumers regularly have those consequences from
doing less-than-adequate work.
MR. CLARKE: Correct. I’m in the big environment
so we take a lot of effort in vetting who we use because we
don’t want to end up with having to do something twice or
more expensive.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I think this bill —
MR. CLARKE: So when we go out in the field -
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: -- actually ensures,
I guess, that those like you have a better grasp on who
you’re hiring. And every consumer deserves the level of
protection that you deserve. The little old lady who’s a
widow and she calls a plumber, she should have an
expectation of what that means, and there’s no way for her
to do that. The same level -- you have a tremendous amount
of assets to you to really nail down what it is that your
expectations of a service. I think Mrs. Jones and little
Beaver deserve the same level of expectations when she
calls on a plumber, too.
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Thank you, Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you. One more
question. And Representative Santora.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: And I apologize. I just
got back. I had another commitment that I had made.
BOMA Pittsburgh, do you represent the surrounding
areas of Pittsburgh as well or just Pittsburgh proper?
MR. CLARKE: Our reach goes in the 10-county
western Pennsylvania region.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So —
MR. CLARKE: We don't go to Erie -
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: I got it. But there's
licenses that would be required in individual
municipalities?
MR. CLARKE: Correct.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: So the cost to obtain
all of those licenses would be less than one statewide
license?
MR. CLARKE: It's unknown. It's up to the
individual municipality, governmental organization, and the
businesses that are in that area.
REPRESENTATIVE SANTORA: Okay. And I come from
the real estate development world, 16 years, and one of my
concerns is the amount of companies coming in from out of
the Commonwealth. And I'm not talking Ohio, New Jersey.
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I’m talking South Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky, you name it.
And plumbers included in that. And it’s one area that,
again, it’s a major concern. It should be -- I don’t like
to use the word regulated but there should be a statewide
license required in order to perform in Pennsylvania. So,
again, I will support this bill. Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Thank you. Thank you
all for your testimony.
And I’ve been listening to this argument and why
you’re concerned about this board being -- I’m assuming
you’re talking about the licensing board that would be in
place?
MR. CLARKE: Yes.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I do know, though,
being Chair and if it’s dealing with Professional Licensure
or any Committee, most of any increases or regulations, it
goes through a long lengthy process, it doesn’t always
happen, and I know any fees that go through any of the
boards, any board, does have to be approved and deemed by
let’s say Professional Licensure Committee. And I think
most the members who sit on this board are very
conservative and really look at that before giving the
approval of an increase. I mean, you have to really
justify why you need that increase before it’s approved.
Is that mainly what you’re concerned about?
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MR. CLARKE: Well, that’s only part of it. The
main concern is what other things this board will do
besides licensing and regulating the plumbers.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I think that would be
controlled by the Legislature as well. I would think
that -
MR. CLARKE: Right.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: — we would have to do
that. So that would be for other legislation and other
Committee meetings.
MR. CLARKE: Right.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: So —
MR. CLARKE: Okay.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Understood.
MR. CLARKE: Understood.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: I understand where
you’re coming from.
MR. CLARKE: Understood.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: But I do thank everybody
for attending this, and it was a very good meeting, I feel.
I thought everybody gave good testimony.
Representative Christiana, I think if you get all
the bugs worked out, well, you know the drill. You know
what you need to do.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: I’ll get to work,
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Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: Okay.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRISTIANA: And I’ll report back.
Thank you. I know what the expectations are, and I intend
to meet them. Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIR HARHART: And I know you will. I
know you will.
But anyway, I thank you, everybody, for coming.
And you have a good day.
(The hearing concluded at 11:36 a.m.)
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1 I hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings
are a true and accurate transcription produced from audio
on the said proceedings and that this is a correct
transcript of the same.
Christy Snyder
Transcriptionist
Diaz Transcription Services