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16th August 2015, 05:45

ComradeAllendeSpartacist

Join Date: May 2015Location: CaliforniaOrganisation: Political Correctness Police (PCP)Posts: 62Rep Power: 1Reputation: 27

Postmodernism?

I've heard the word "postmodernism" tossed about, usually in deep philosophicalconversations, but I never seem to have gotten the basic definition of it. Can someone giveme a dumbed-down explanation of postmodernist principles and basic tenets?

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16th August 2015, 12:27

Cliff Paul

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Kind of hard to sum post-modernism into a short definition. So many different theories - post-

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structuralism, deconstructionism, whatever the fuck Baudrillard does are part of the post-

modernist tendency. Perhaps the best way to describe post-modernism is that it's a way ofthinking, of approaching issues. David Harvey gives a good summary of the differencesbetween modernist thinking and post-modernist thinking here:

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16th August 2015, 20:12

HatshepsutJunior Revolutionary

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Postmodernists basically reject the idea that there's an objective reality. They argue that eachperson creates her or his own reality through personal experience.

That's a blatant oversimplification there's more to it in the posts above mine. Postmodernismemerged as a reaction against logical positivism, the philosophical orientation toward ontologyand epistemology which was dominant in the early 20th century.

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18th August 2015, 15:32

andie hollandBanned

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Post-modernism poses the question as to the possibilities of doing philosophy after the demiseof Modernism, which is loosely defined as the means and ends of reason. Therefore, 'post-mod' assumes that the claims of reason as somewhat of an absolute have already beenproven false.

The key player, of course, is Descartes, with support from Aristotle. 'I think, therefore I am',of course, but also the presupposed ability to claim what we sense and commit to reason isreal in a way which we'd now call 'common sense'.

Most writers see this fall coming with Nietzsche's perspectivism. What we are is a 'will topower'. Yet many, including Negri, see the pushback as early as Spinoza, who wrote thatreason only serves our basic striving (conatus).

In this vein, one can easily imagine Marx's claim that 'the prevalent ideas of a society arethose of its ruling class' is anti-modernist, too: there is no pure reason other than itsapplication.
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In this respect, it's not that post-mods reject the existence of an objective reality , but rather,that we do not possess the means of discovering it. Returning to Kant, as homo sapiens, we'rerigged up with certain capacities that serve our own ends-- that later evolutionists would claimto be 'adaptive'.

OTH, knowing what's 'really' true in a larger sense would presuppose a mind given in theimage of god. This, again, is the Cartesian mind. Without it, ewe have to inquire as to themeans and ends of thought itself--the real challenge to modernism as such.

Postmodernists basically reject the idea that there's an objective reality. They argue that eachperson creates her or his own reality through personal experience.

That's a blatant oversimplification there's more to it in the posts above mine. Postmodernismemerged as a reaction against logical positivism, the philosophical orientation toward ontologyand epistemology which was dominant in the early 20th century.

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19th August 2015, 03:45

RedMaterialistSenior RevolutionaryCommitted User

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ComradeAllendeI've heard the word "postmodernism" tossed about, usually in deep philosophicalconversations, but I never seem to have gotten the basic definition of it. Can someonegive me a dumbed-down explanation of postmodernist principles and basic tenets?

Some random thoughts.

It seems to be pretty much agreed that post-modernism is what came after modernism. So

what was modernism, how long did it last, etc. My view is that modernism began in 1914 withWWI modernism was the cultural, philosophical, historical form of imperialistic capitalism.This is why structure, objectivity, liberal values, were so important to modernism.Imperialism was imposing Western structure, objectivity and values on the rest of the world.

So, when did modernism end? 1945 at Auschwitz and Hiroshima might be a good date. No onecould pretend any more that Western, liberal values were the highest values.

But also, Western, nationalistic imperialism was replaced by international, monopolistic,monolithic corporate capitalism. The modern corporation doesn't pretend to have any valuesat all, except for the single-minded pursuit of profit. The only value of post-modern capitalismis the subjective, de-centered, de-structured value of consumerism.

Post-modernism is what you get with late-stage, monopolistic capitalism. Modernism wasHenry Ford and Picasso post-modernism is Amazon and Quentin Tarantino.

Post-modernism is the empty space between capitalism and socialism.
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19th August 2015, 10:18

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Quote:

Originally Posted by andie holland

Postmodernists basically reject the idea that there's an objective reality. They arguethat each person creates her or his own reality through personal experience.

Attributing this kind of solipsism to postmodernism is, I think, not just over-simplified butactually incorrect. It is more that they reject the idea that reality can be described from acentral, privileged point of view. That one's position and experiences will influence one'sperspective of the world. That one cannot prove an objective truth but only offer variousinterpretations of that truth and that there is, in the end, no objective way of privileging oneinterpretation over the another.

In a way, Marx pre-empts this idea by linking epistemology with the class struggle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMaterialist

So, when did modernism end? 1945 at Auschwitz and Hiroshima might be a good date.No one could pretend any more that Western, liberal values were the highest values.

Could anyone pretend that Western liberal values were superior to any others after thecatastrophe and human carnage of the first world war?

One of the key cultural responses to the 1914/18 war was DADA and its rejection of Westernartistic values. Wasn't this a rejection of modernism and the beginnings of what came later tobe called postmodernism? And what about Surrealism, which quickly followed DADA, with its

rejection of rationalism and realist ontology?__________________

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19th August 2015, 17:08

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GreavyardMarxist wich need moar books.

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Does Postmodernism aid the proletariat class struggle?

Or does it harms it?__________________Sup bro. Reforming my profile to a less left-commie to more a marxist.

19th August 2015, 18:52


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hit The NorthCould anyone pretend that Western liberal values were superior to any others afterthe catastrophe and human carnage of the first world war?

One of the key cultural responses to the 1914/18 war was DADA and its rejection ofWestern artistic values. Wasn't this a rejection of modernism and the beginnings ofwhat came later to be called postmodernism? And what about Surrealism, whichquickly followed DADA, with its rejection of rationalism and realist ontology?

Good point. But all wars are catastrophic and cause human carnage. The Holocaust andHiroshima have become signifiers of an entirely new kind of human destruction.

Dadaism described itself as "anti-art," a reaction against not only the capitalism of WWI butalso modern art in general. It certainly was a rejection of modernism. But it mostly died outin the 20s and 30s, while modernism continued to develop along with international capitalism.Some, in my view, artistic, literary examples of modernism are The Sun Also Rises, Ulysses,Faulkner, D.H. Lawrence, modern film, etc. All of this is essentially different from, say, atypical novel of late Victorianism.

Marx was far ahead of his time in being a modernist. But he is also ahead of his time in beingan anti-post modernist. After pomo comes socialism when the great Marx will return. Not thatMarx would want to be an icon.

Dadaism might have been a reaction against modern capitalism, but it is, as Marx showed, theeconomic system itself which produces a general art form. Dadaism had to remain a reactionuntil capitalism transformed into something else, which I argue, leads to post-modernism.

So, on the one hand we have a reaction against an economic system, and on the other a

development out of the new economic system. Post moderns are usually very comfortablewith late capitalism. And why shouldn't they be? They are its children.

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Hatshepsut

19th August 2015, 20:34


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Originally Posted by RedMaterialistGood point. But all wars are catastrophic and cause human carnage. The Holocaustand Hiroshima have become signifiers of an entirely new kind of human destruction.

Sure, but the point isn't which war was most destructive, but at which point the confidence ofmodernism began to falter and open up spaces for challenge. If modernism was the child ofthe fin de siecle (which I suggest it was), based as it was on a claim to rational control over

the economy and international relations, then the outbreak of war in 1914 was a massivetrauma to the legitimacy of those claims.

Quote:

Dadaism described itself as "anti-art," a reaction against not only the capitalism ofWWI but also modern art in general. It certainly was a rejection of modernism. But itmostly died out in the 20s and 30s, while modernism continued to develop along withinternational capitalism.

In the age of mechanical reproduction, no art form really dies, but continues a zombie

existence within the circulation of cultural commodities (in fact this is one of the conditionswhich produces postmodernism in various artistic fields: Dada depended upon thereproduction of images and text in order to subvert the original, through montage and radical

juxtaposition).

Quote:

Some, in my view, artistic, literary examples of modernism are The Sun Also Rises,Ulysses, Faulkner, D.H. Lawrence, modern film, etc. All of this is essentially differentfrom, say, a typical novel of late Victorianism.

Well, none of those writers are late Victorian writers, but anyway. I've often heard the claimthat Joyce's Ulysses is a work of high modernism, but what do you think makes it an exampleof the modernist novel?

I think this is a problem with all attempts to periodise the emergence of postmodernism. Notonly did it emerge at different times in different disciplines, but also it is difficult to definewhat modernism is, which is certainly a precondition for understanding whatpostmodernismis.

A related problem is that the identification of modernism is actually simultaneous with thediscovery of postmodernism. It is a retrospective category. T.S. Elliot, Joyce, Falkner,Stravinski and Picasso, etc., did not go about their business claiming to represent "the

modernist school". It is a label imposed by critics who have to engage in a good deal ofgeneralising and framing in order to make their categories coherent.

Another problem, I guess, is that no cultural movement exists alone and it is precisely thedominant movement which produces oppositional alternatives. But generally, most artists andthinkers do not operate consciously within these categories. So, for instance, in Marx, we
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have claims toward relativity (knowledge in class society is a class power and shaped by class

struggle and is ideological) and we have claims about universal processes (historicalmaterialism).

Quote:

Dadaism might have been a reaction against modern capitalism, but it is, as Marxshowed, the economic system itself which produces a general art form.

Well, postmodernism itself is a reaction to modernism. But where does Marx show that it is"the economic system itself which produces a general art form"? Perhaps your use of the term"general art form" is mistaken? But I doubt Marx would have subscribed to such a crudeformulation. Obviously, technology and particular relations of production shape culturalproduction, but is there anything within "the economic system" which would determine the riseof, say, Serialism?

Quote:

Dadaism had to remain a reaction until capitalism transformed into something else,which I argue, leads to post-modernism.

Sorry, are you claiming that postmodernism is something which replaces capitalism? Last timeI looked, we still lived in a global capitalist system.

Quote:

So, on the one hand we have a reaction against an economic system, and on the othera development out of the new economic system.

Which new economic system are referring to?

Quote:

Post moderns are usually very comfortable with late capitalism. And why shouldn'tthey be? They are its children.

I'm confused. Is "late capitalism" a different mode of production from capitalism in youropinion?

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Originally Posted by Hit The NorthI'm confused. Is "late capitalism" a different mode of production from capitalism inyour opinion?

Yes, that is essentially what I am saying. Late-stage, monopoly capitalism is different fromearly 20th century imperialist capitalism. Although not an entirely new mode but a laterdeveloped mode. It's that difference which, in my view, determines post-modernism. I can'tsay what all the details are the best analysis I have seen is Jameson's Cultural Logic of Late

Capitalism. I don't think he completes the analysis.

Isn't the capitalism of 1915 different from the capitalism of 2015? Could the old imperialistshave ever dreamed that capital would be as world dominant as it is today? Could they haveimagined that less than 50 people would own more wealth than half of all people on theplanet. It is true that Cecil Rhodes said that if he could he would colonize the planets, buteven he could not get past the old idea of "colonization."

Isn't historical materialism the idea that the means and mode of production determinephilosophy, law, art, etc.? Of course you can't show that a specific novel, film, or painting wasdirectly, specifically determined by a specific economic condition, but nevertheless in generalterms isn't that what Marx meant?

Take two novels, written by the same author, in two different historical/economic eras: TheSun Also Rises and The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway. The first, in my opinion, isclassic modernism, the lost generation, social alienation, modern angst, Western, white, maledominance, homophobia, racism, misogyny, etc. But the latter novel? It's completely anti-social, individualistic, a return to some kind of ideal naturalism. How to explain thedifference? (an exception to this argument would be a world-historical figure likeShakespeare.)

Just some random thoughts. But, nevertheless, I still think post-modernism is real and is areal product of the economic conditions of post war capitalism.

20th August 2015, 07:11

Emancipated SpiritParty like it's 1917

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GreavyardDoes Postmodernism aid the proletariat class struggle?Or does it harms it?

Speaking as a former postmodernist...no, it's really not a useful ideology to use when youwant proletarian liberation. Class consciousness involves consciousness of objective, materialreality, and postmodernism doesn't allow acknowledgement of any material reality. Besides,it's the epitome of "edgy liberal teenager," ideology: it appears revolutionary, with itsapparent encouragement of open-mindedness, but it's really just the same idealist nonsense

people have spouted for centuries.__________________http://thoughtorchardblog.wordpress.com

"You cannot buy the revolution. You cannot make the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in your spirit, or it isnowhere," - The Dispossessed, Ursula Le Guin
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fka PreteenCommunist

20th August 2015, 13:03

HatshepsutJunior Revolutionary

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMaterialistBut all wars are catastrophic and cause human carnage. The Holocaust and Hiroshimahave become signifiers of an entirely new kind of human destruction.

Precisely. Most of the reason I favor communism relates to eliminating this Sword of

Damocles from above the world's head. Nuclear weapons will destroy us more surely thanclimate change will, though since the USSR folded we forgot all about them.

I'm a bit ignorant regarding Dada or Soviet Avant-Garde comments on them on the forumare appreciated. I agree the labels for the movements are retrospective and that's true forhistorical eras like the Renaissance as well.

__________________Hr zj jSst r xAst Tn xmt n rmt "Why are you going to this land which is not known to the people?" (Urk. IV 324, 8-9)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMaterialistYes, that is essentially what I am saying. Late-stage, monopoly capitalism is differentfrom early 20th century imperialist capitalism. Although not an entirely new modebut a later developed mode. It's that difference which, in my view, determines post-modernism. I can't say what all the details are the best analysis I have seen isJameson's Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism. I don't think he completes the analysis.

Fine, but we need to be precise in our categorisation and the conceptual level we areoperating on. Both capitalism and socialism are modes of production, but postmodernism isnot. It is fine to see postmodernism as determined by the mode of production but not assomething different which capitalism is turning into, as you indicate in an earlier post. But ihave no problem with an analysis which seeks the roots of cultural changes within thematerial relations of the day.

Quote:

Isn't historical materialism the idea that the means and mode of production determinephilosophy, law, art, etc.? Of course you can't show that a specific novel, film, or
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10/12


painting was directly, specifically determined by a specific economic condition, but

nevertheless in general terms isn't that what Marx meant?

Yes, but...

Quote:

Take two novels, written by the same author, in two different historical/economiceras: The Sun Also Rises and The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway. The first, inmy opinion, is classic modernism, the lost generation, social alienation, modern angst,Western, white, male dominance, homophobia, racism, misogyny, etc. But the latternovel? It's completely anti-social, individualistic, a return to some kind of idealnaturalism. How to explain the difference? (an exception to this argument would be aworld-historical figure like Shakespeare.)

The difference can be explained with references to personal changes and the experiences ofthe author, ranging from a series of failed marriages, the failure of the revolution in Spain,the descent into global war or any other things that could lead to disenchantment or whatever.I'd suggest that a significant shift in the mode of production is unlikely to be a compelling

factor in the differences between The Sun Also Rises (1926) and The Old Man and the Sea(1952). For a start, the period of Hemingway's literary career coincides quite nicely with theperiod of Fordist production and the shift toward post-Fordism was yet to get underway(Modernism being the cultural form of the former and postmodernism the form of the latter).It's important that we are not too deterministic and abstract in the relations we make betweenbase and superstructure.

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Just some random thoughts. But, nevertheless, I still think post-modernism is real andis a real product of the economic conditions of post war capitalism.

What do you mean by "real" though? Obviously it exists as an approach, a style of analysis, ora philosophy. But do you mean it exists as an actual condition of existence? That the variousclaims it makes about social transformations and contemporary social life are accurate?

__________________"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg


Last edited by Hit The North Yesterday at 20:46.

Yesterday, 23:00



Quote:

Originally Posted by Hit The NorthIt is fine to see postmodernism as determined by the mode of production but not assomething different which capitalism is turning into, as you indicate in an earlier post.

It's not an economic system that capitalism is turning into. My point was that it is a reflection,
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11/12

a philosophical development out of whatever is "late stage capitalism."

Quote:

The difference can be explained with references to personal changes and theexperiences of the author, ranging from a series of failed marriages, the failure of therevolution in Spain, the descent into global war or any other things that could lead todisenchantment or whatever. I'd suggest that a significant shift in the mode of

production is unlikely to be a compelling factor in the differences between The SunAlso Rises (1926) and The Old Man and the Sea (1952). For a start, the period ofHemingway's literary career coincides quite nicely with the period of Fordistproduction and the shift toward post-Fordism was yet to get underway (Modernismbeing the cultural form of the former and postmodernism the form of the latter). It'simportant that we are not too deterministic and abstract in the relations we makebetween base and superstructure.

Well, I agree. But I think that Fordist industrial capitalism began to diminish, between 1945-1955 or so (by 1980 most mass production had been shifted to the East.) Then financecapitalism emerged as the dominant mode of production, at least in the United States.

Everyone talks about "determinism" in Marxist analysis. Yet, historical materialism isessentially about society being determined by a mode of production. Slave society beingdetermined by slavery, feudal society by feudalism, etc.

Quote:

What do you mean by "real" though? Obviously it exists as an approach, a style ofanalysis, or a philosophy. But do you mean it exists as an actual condition ofexistence? That the various claims it makes about social transformations andcontemporary social life are accurate?

Yes, as a philosophy, but not as a condition of existence, any more than religion is. It is, asMarx said, a mental reflection of the conditions of economic and social existence.

I suspect that some of its claims are accurate. What other consistent philosophy hasdeveloped out of the current (1945-2015, especially beginning about 1980), economic system?

If the current economic system can be described as "neo-liberal" then what is the neo-liberalphilosophical system?

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