· published by the office of the clerk of tynwald, legislative buildings, finch road, douglas,...

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings,

Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2013

T Y N W A L D C O U R T

O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L

Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 9th July 2013

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website

www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Please select a year:

Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted

on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office. Supplementary material

subsequently made available following Questions for Oral Answer is published separately on the

Tynwald website, www.tynwald.org.im/Official Papers/Hansards/Hansard Appendix

Volume 130, No. 15

ISSN 1742 –2256

http://www.tynwald.org.im/

http://www.tynwald.org.im/Official

TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 9th JULY 2013

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Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. C M Christian)

In the Council:

The Acting Attorney General (Mr J Quinn);

The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. R M E Paterson),

Mr R P Braidwood, Mr D M W Butt, Mr M Coleman, Mr C G Corkish MBE,

Mr E A Crowe, Mr A F Downie OBE, Mr J R Turner and Mr T P Wild,

with Mr J D C King, Clerk of the Council.

In the Keys:

The Speaker (Hon. S C Rodan) (Garff);

The Chief Minister (Hon. A R Bell) (Ramsey);

Hon. D M Anderson (Glenfaba); Mr L I Singer (Ramsey);

Hon. W E Teare (Ayre); Mr A L Cannan (Michael); Hon. T M Crookall (Peel);

Mr P Karran, Mr Z Hall and Mr D J Quirk (Onchan);

Mr R H Quayle (Middle); Mr J R Houghton and Mr R W Henderson (Douglas North);

Hon. D C Cretney and Mrs K J Beecroft (Douglas South);

Hon. C R Robertshaw (Douglas East);

Hon. J P Shimmin and Mr C C Thomas (Douglas West);

Mr R A Ronan (Castletown); Hon. G D Cregeen (Malew and Santon);

Hon. J P Watterson, Mr L D Skelly and Hon. P A Gawne (Rushen);

with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.


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Business Transacted

Leave of absence granted ............................................................................................................ 1547

Welcome to students of No. 1 High School, Luyang .................................................................. 1547

Tribute to Dr Edgar Mann, former Tynwald Member................................................................. 1547

Procedural – Papers to be laid electronically .............................................................................. 1548

Supplementary Order Paper No. 1 .......................................................................................... 1548

Papers laid before the Court ........................................................................................................ 1548

Bills for signature ........................................................................................................................ 1550

Personal Statement by Mr Anderson ........................................................................................... 1550

Procedural ................................................................................................................................... 1551

Questions for Oral Answer

1. Island’s reputation as finance centre – Promotion of high standards .................................... 1552

2. Civil Service staff – Numbers leaving and reasons ............................................................... 1555

3. Civil Service pay – Freezing of increments .......................................................................... 1557

4. Nunnery Estate – Options for use, sale or lease .................................................................... 1559

5. Freedom of information legislation – Date for introduction ................................................. 1561

6. Income Tax – Reassessment of income and profits .............................................................. 1564

7. Taxation of income and profit – Balance regarded as capital ............................................... 1565

8. Income Tax Act 1970 – Primary legislation re section 2PA ................................................. 1566

9. Public sector pensions – Additional costs ............................................................................. 1568

10. Pink Book – Projected income .............................................................................................. 1570

11. Bus timetables – Passenger survey ........................................................................................ 1571

12. Sulby Bridge car crash – Details re drivers and vehicles involved ....................................... 1574

13. Unemployment – Joint assessment with DSC ....................................................................... 1576

14. Sefton Group – Payment of creditors; Palace Hotel refurbishment costs .............................. 1578

15. Nursery education – Future provision ................................................................................... 1581

16. Bathing Water Directive standards – Island testing .............................................................. 1584

17. Effluent discharge – Peel Bay and Meary Veg...................................................................... 1586

Procedural ................................................................................................................................... 1587

18. Effluent discharge – Peel Bay ............................................................................................... 1587

19. Regulation of health and social care professionals – UK joint consultation paper ............... 1588

20. Health Service review – Terms of reference ......................................................................... 1589

21. Bowel surgery – External review .......................................................................................... 1590

22. Orthopaedics and rheumatology – Waiting lists.................................................................... 1591

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to complete Question Paper – Motion lost ....................... 1594

Questions for Written Answer

23. Noble’s Hospital – Waiting lists ........................................................................................... 1596

24. Surface dressing programme – Quality control checks ......................................................... 1597

25. Building byelaws in Douglas – Enforcement ........................................................................ 1598

26. Retrospective planning applications – Consistency with rule of law .................................... 1598

27. New and refurbished properties – Statutory warranties ........................................................ 1598

28. Independent review of Children’s Services – Preparatory assessment .................................. 1599

29. Glenside building and site – Plans for future use .................................................................. 1600

30. Long-term unemployed – Benefits system ............................................................................ 1600

31. Children and Families social workers – Agency staff ........................................................... 1601

32. Children and Families social workers – Cessation of employment ....................................... 1602

33. Victoria Road – Removal of letter box.................................................................................. 1602

34 Civil servants – Numbers suspended on full pay and cost; numbers employed in OHR ...... 1602


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35. PSPA annual accounts – Value of scheme liabilities; clearing scheme liabilities ................. 1603

36. Immigration – Policy ............................................................................................................. 1604

37. Deemsters – Pay freeze ......................................................................................................... 1604

38. Noble’s Hospital – Visits by Minister for Health .................................................................. 1604

39. Noble’s Hospital – Visits by DoH Chief Executive Officer.................................................. 1605

40. Hip, knee and other joint replacements –

Number of over-65s on waiting list; level of urgency ........................................................... 1605

41. NHS staff – Numbers ............................................................................................................ 1605

42. Nurses – Three-month vacancy rate ...................................................................................... 1606

43. Nurses – Number required in NHS over next three years ..................................................... 1606

44. Nurse to bed ratios – Comparative assessment ..................................................................... 1607

45. Sudden or unexpected deaths – Breakdown of figures .......................................................... 1608

46. International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights –

Extent of DoH conformity ..................................................................................................... 1608

47. NHS dental service – Missed appointments .......................................................................... 1609

48. Nurses – Headcount and full-time equivalent figures ........................................................... 1610

49. HIV treatment – Expenditure incurred .................................................................................. 1611

50. Orthopaedics and rheumatology – Times from referral to treatment .................................... 1611

51. Hip and knee replacements – Figures since 2006 .................................................................. 1616

52. Agency staff and locums – Cost ............................................................................................ 1616

53. Operations – Cancellations .................................................................................................... 1616

54. Air ambulance service – Charitable donations ...................................................................... 1616

55. Breast cancer – Numbers diagnosed ..................................................................................... 1617

56. Breast cancer – Hormone receptor test .................................................................................. 1618

57. Local authorities – Review of role and functions; modernisation agenda ............................. 1618

58. Looked-after children – Numbers of children and homes; age span of children ................... 1619

59. Inspection of Children’s Services – Terms of reference; submissions .................................. 1619

60. Meary Veg – Projected average daily flow from population equivalent of 64,000 ............... 1621

61. Meary Veg – Projected average daily flow ........................................................................... 1622

Procedural ................................................................................................................................... 1622

The Court adjourned at 1.10 p.m.

and resumed its sitting at 2.30 p.m.

Announcement of Royal Assent .................................................................................................. 1623

Matter of Urgent Public Importance

Motion of no confidence in the Minister for Health – Motion failed .......................................... 1623

Orders of the Day

3. Scope of Government – Statement by the Chief Minister ..................................................... 1623

4. External inspection of Health Services – Statement by the Minister for Health ................... 1625

5. Douglas Promenade Improvement Scheme – Phase 1– Expenditure approved .................... 1630

6. Ramsey Swing Bridge Refurbishment – Expenditure approved ........................................... 1648

7. Strategic Highway Refurbishment Programme – Expenditure approved .............................. 1651

8. Replacement Bus Ticketing System – Debate commenced .................................................. 1655



Replacement Bus Ticketing System – Debate concluded – Expenditure approved .............. 1657

9. Ballure Cliff Stabilisation Scheme – Expenditure approved ................................................. 1663

10. Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 – Report received .............................................. 1664

11. Public Accounts Committee – Report on the Commercialisation of the TT:

Contract Negotiations and Contract Management, 2005 to 2012 –

Report received and recommendations approved .................................................................. 1676


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12-14. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 –

European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Arms Embargo, Etc) (Amendment)

Order 2013 approved; European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment)

Order 2013 approved; European Union (Libya Sanctions) (Application)

(Amendment) Order 2013 approved .................................................................................... 1683

15. Merchant Shipping Act 1985 – Merchant Shipping (Maritime Labour Convention)

Regulations 2013 approved .................................................................................................. 1684

16. Town and Country Planning Act 1999 – Town and Country Planning

(Development Procedure) (No 2) Order 2013 approved ....................................................... 1685

Suspension of Standing Order 1.2(2) to complete Order Paper .................................................. 1689

17. Fees and Duties Act 1989 –

Town and Country Planning (Appeal Fees) Order 2013 approved ....................................... 1689

18. Building Control Act 1991 – Building (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 approved ... 1693

19. Income Tax Act 1970 – Income Tax (International Agreements) (Temporary Taxation)

Order 2013 approved ............................................................................................................. 1694

20-23. Civil Registration Act 1984 – Registration of Births and Deaths (Fees)

Regulations 2013 approved;

Marriage Act 1984 – Registration of Marriages (Fees) Regulations 2013 approved;

Civil Partnership Act 2011 – Civil Partnership (Fees) Order 2013 approved;

Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Marriage and Civil Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees)

Order 2013 approved ............................................................................................................. 1695

24. Company and Business Names etc Act 2012 – Company and Business Names

(Restricted Words and Phrases) Regulations 2013 approved ................................................ 1697

25. Payment of Members' Expenses Act 1989 – Payment of Members’ Expenses

(Travelling Allowances) (No. 2) Order 2013 approved ........................................................ 1698

26. Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Tree Felling Licence (Fees) Order 2013 approved ................... 1701

27. Sea Fisheries Act 1971 –

Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) Byelaws 2013 approved ................... 1702

28. Agriculture (Severe Weather Assistance) Loans and Grant Scheme 2013 approved ............ 1702

29. Non-Resident Traders Act 1983 – Non-Resident Traders (Licence Fees)

Regulations 2013 approved ................................................................................................... 1703

30. Fees and Duties Act 1989 – Moneylenders (Registration Fees) Order 2013 approved ......... 1704

31. Public Sector Pensions Act 2011 – Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme

(Amendment) Scheme 2013 approved .................................................................................. 1705

32. Public Sector Pensions Act 2011 – Police Pensions (Amendment)

Regulations 2013 approved ................................................................................................... 1710

The Council withdrew.

House of Keys ............................................................................................................................ 1711

The House adjourned at 9.40 p.m.


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PAGE LEFT DELIBERATELY BLANK


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Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MADAM PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.

The President: Moghrey mie, Hon. Members.

Members: Moghrey mie, Madam President. 5

The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayers.

PRAYERS

The Lord Bishop

The President: Hon. Members, it may well be warm in the Chamber this morning, so please

feel free to remove jackets.

Leave of absence granted

The President: Leave of absence has been given this morning to Mrs Cannell, who has 10

sustained an injury, and to Mr Butt, who is attending a funeral, but will be joining us this

afternoon.

Welcome to students of No. 1 High School, Luyang

The President: Hon. Members, it is a pleasure to welcome the students of No. 1 High School,

Luyang, who have joined us for a part of our sitting this morning. They are on an exchange with

Ballakermeen High School, and you are all very welcome. 15

Members: Hear, hear.

Tribute to Dr Edgar Mann, former Tynwald Member

The President: Hon. Members, since our sitting in June, we have had the sad news of the

death of our former colleague, Dr Edgar Mann.

His valuable and extensive contribution to the life of the Island has been recognised in the 20

sincere tributes paid to him in the House of Keys and the Legislative Council, where Members

recorded their respect for a politician of great ability and stature. He served the Island and his

constituents with dedication for over 23 years. Today, I do not intend to repeat all that has been

said, but wish to add a short footnote to those tributes in the records of Tynwald Court.

Dr Mann served in this Chamber, both as a Member of the House of Keys and the Legislative 25

Council. His well researched and powerful contributions, both as Chairman of Executive Council

and as the founder of the Alternative Policy Group, revealed him to be a leader, whether in


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Government or opposition. He was a man who was true to his convictions. His debating skills and

command of his subjects earned him the respect both of those who supported his views and those

who disagreed with them. His strength of character was displayed by his leadership of the Finance 30

Board and Executive Council in the difficult years of the early 1980s, and his courage and

determination carried him through the trials of ill-health which beset him at around that time.

He was, without doubt, one of the most distinguished politicians in this Court in the last half-

century and I am sure Hon. Members of this Court would wish to extend their condolences to Mrs

Mann and their family. 35

His funeral will take place, Hon. Members, on Thursday at 11.00 a.m. at Lonan Parish Church.

Procedural

Papers to be laid electronically

The President: I have received a request for the papers listed on the paper in front of you to be

laid electronically in October, rather than by hard copy. Are you content to agree this, Hon.

Members?

It was agreed.

Supplementary Order Paper No. 1

The President: Hon. Members, we have a Supplementary Order Paper, which contains the 40

usual report from the Standing Orders Committee on Petitions and a further report from the Social

Affairs Policy Review Committee. Does the Court consent to have these additional papers laid?

It was agreed.

Papers laid before the Court

The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.

The Clerk: Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Claare 45

Obbyr. Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Claare Obbyr

Arbyllagh Earroo.

I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper and Item 1 of the

Supplementary Order Paper:

European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973

European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Arms Embargo, Etc) (Amendment) Order 2013

[SD No 0257/13]

European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013

[SD No 0255/13]

European Union (Libya Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013

[SD No 0253/13]

Merchant Shipping Act 1985

Merchant Shipping (Maritime Labour Convention) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0234/13]

Town and Country Planning Act 1999

Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) (No 2) Order 2013

[SD No 0238/13]


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Fees and Duties Act 1989

Town and Country Planning (Appeal Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0239/13]

Marriage and Civil Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0196/13]

Tree Felling Licence (Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0192/13]

Moneylenders (Registration Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0072/13]

Building Control Act 1991

Building (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0143/13]

Income Tax Act 1970

Income Tax (International Agreements) Temporary Taxation) Order 2013

[SD No 0190/13]

Civil Registration Act 1984

Registration of Births and Deaths (Fees) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0197/13]

Marriage Act 1984

Registration of Marriage (Fees) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0198/13]

Civil Partnership Act 2011

Civil Partnership (Fees) Order 2013 [SD No 0195/13]

Company and Business Names etc Act 2012

Company and Business Names (Restricted Words and Phrases) Regulations 2013

[SD No 0236/13]

Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989

Payment of Members’ Expenses (Travelling Allowances) (No. 2) Order 2013

[SD No 0233/13]

Sea Fisheries Act 1971

Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) (Byelaws) 2013 [SD No 0193/13]

Agriculture (Severe Weather Assistance) Loans and Grant Scheme 2013

Agriculture (Severe Weather Assistance) Loans and Grant Scheme 2013

[GC No 0024/13]

Non-Resident Traders Act 1983

Non-Resident Traders (Licence Fees) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0071/13]

Public Sector Pensions Act 2011

Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2013 [SD No 0178/13]

Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0179/13]

Reports

Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 [GD No 0030/13]

Note: The following items are not the subject of motions on the Order Paper

Documents subject to negative resolution


Somalia Sanctions (Arms Embargo, Etc) (Amendment) Regulations [SD No 0258/13]

Somalia Sanctions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0256/13]

Libya Sanctions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0254/13]

Documents subject to no procedure


Draft European Union (Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies) Order 2013

[SD No xxxx/xx]


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Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1986

Denatured Alcohol (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0251/13]

Customs and Excise Acts 1986

Spirits (Amendment) Regulations 2013 [SD No 0252/13]

Acquisition of Land Act 1984

Panel of Official Arbitrators [GC No 0025/13]

Reports

Response to the Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts Report on the

Commercialisation of the TT: Contract Negotiations and Contract Management 2005 to 2010.

[GD No 0035/13] [This item is relevant to the Public Accounts Committee Report [PP No

0078/13] which is due to be debated at this sitting at Item 11]

Council of Ministers Annual Report of the Isle of Man Government Preservation of War

Memorials Committee July 2013 [GD No 0032/13]

Report of the Police Complaints Commissioner for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No

0020/13]

Policing Plan 2013-14 [GD No 0021/13]

Isle of Man Constabulary Inclusion Report 2011-12 ‘A New Dawn’ [GD No 0029/13]

Isle of Man Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs Annual Report April 2012-March 2013

[GD No 0031/13]

Detailed Government Accounts for the year ended 31st March 2013 [GD No 0019/13]

Isle of Man Film Limited Directors’ Report and consolidated Financial Statements for the year

ended 31st March 2012 [GD No 0033/13]

Marketing Initiatives Fund Annual Report year covering 1st April 2013 to 31st March 2013

[GD No 0036/13]

Isle of Man Film (DOI) Limited Directors’ Report and consolidated Financial Statements for

the year ended 31st March 2012 [GD No 0034/13]

Supplementary Reports

Third Report of the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald for the Session 2012-13: Petitions

for Redress Presented on Tynwald Day 2013 [PP 0114/13]

Second Report of the Social Affairs Policy Review Committee for the Session 2012-13: The

Centralised Pupil Database: Supplementary Report [PP 0116/13]

Bills for signature

The President: We have, this morning, two Bills for signing: the Weeds (Amendment) Bill 50

2013 and the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2013. With the consent of the Court, these will be

circulated for signing while we proceed with our business. Are you in agreement with that, Hon.

Members?

It was agreed.

Personal Statement by Mr Anderson

The President: Before we begin our Order Paper, Hon. Members, the Minister, Mr Anderson,

has indicated that he wishes to make a Personal Statement. 55

I call on the Hon. Member for Glenfaba, Mr Anderson.

Mr Anderson: Thank you, Madam President.

I would like to take this opportunity to inform Hon. Members concerning a matter relating to

the Care Quality Commission (CQC), the UK National Health Service organisation. 60

The Department used a forerunner of the organisation, CQC, namely the Health Care

Commission, to undertake a review of Noble’s Hospital in 2006.


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In 2009, the Healthcare Quality Commission, together with two other inspectorate entities,

merged to create the CQC. It was always understood by me and the Department that the mandate

of the CQC, following its creation, precluded it from assisting the Department further. 65

The CQC’s primary function is the registration and regulation of Health and Social Care

Services in England. To that extent, the CQC does not register or regulate such services in the Isle

of Man. The CQC’s statutory functions are primarily set out in the UK Health and Social Care

Acts of the UK of 2008 and 2012.

Schedule 4 of the 2008 Act sets out the legislative framework about the interaction of the CQC 70

with other authorities. Paragraph 9 of that schedule states the CQC, if it thinks it is appropriate to

do so, may provide advice or assistance to other public authorities in the exercise of the

authorities’ functions. The paragraph goes on to indicate that this includes public authorities in the

Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.

The fact that I and others were therefore not correctly advised of the situation concerning the 75

CQC and the Isle of Man is, to say the least, most unfortunate, and I apologise unreservedly for

that error. To that end, a formal investigation is being carried out by an officer from outside the

Department of Health and is taking place to establish how this could be.

The Hon. Member for South Douglas, Mrs Beecroft, has received a letter from the current

Chief Executive of the CQC, Mr David Behan, in which he suggests that he had a conversation 80

with me last year concerning the potential for CQC to involve itself on the Island. I must report,

Madam President, that Mr Behan’s recollection has let him down, as he is a gentleman who I have

never met and never had a conversation with. The facts are therefore contrary to the letter on the

Liberal Vannin website and I am now sending a further letter to the Standards Committee to

investigate this matter also, so that my name may be cleared in this respect. 85

I would also like to take this opportunity to inform Hon. Members that on 1st July I wrote to

Mr Speaker, in his capacity as Chairman of the Tynwald Members’ Standards Committee, to

investigate the allegations in the letter sent from Mr Divers, a consultant at Noble’s Hospital, that

my personal statement to the House of Keys on 25th June continued to mislead Hon. Members. I

stand by that statement, and in order to establish the facts I have requested the Standards 90

Committee to look into the matter.

I will respect the decision of the Tynwald Members’ Standards Committee in these matters,

and if I am found to have knowingly misled Hon. Members in my various statements, would step

down as Health Minister.

Thank you, Madam President, for the opportunity to make this personal statement. 95

Procedural

The President: Hon. Members, we move on to our Question Paper.

In respect of Written Questions, Hon. Members, I have received a letter from the Minister of

the Department of Health, Mr Anderson, which reads as follows:

‘As you will be aware, the Department of Health has 24 Questions – five Oral and 19 Written – for the July sitting of

Tynwald. Due to the exceptional number of Questions submitted by Hon. Members and their complexity, it is not possible to

answer seven Written Questions without diverting staff from clinical duties, which I am not prepared to do. The

Answers to the following Written Questions will therefore be deferred and provided to Hon. Members when possible: Written Questions 40, 42, 47, 49, 50, 51 and 53. I trust that this is acceptable.’

Hon. Members, the issue of such huge numbers of Questions being submitted and having to

comply with the requirement to be answered by five o’clock on the Monday before our sitting has 100

been referred to the Standing Orders Committee for their consideration.


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Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

Island’s reputation as finance centre

Promotion of high standards

1. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Chief Minister:

How he intends to ensure that the EU, G8, OECD and the United States are fully aware of and

acknowledge both at officer and political level the extraordinary amount of work that has gone

on in the Isle of Man over the years to ensure its status as a well regulated finance centre to

international standard and its full commitment to remain so; why he was summoned to a G8

briefing on tax and financial matters by Downing Street, prior to the G8 summit; what he did

to promote the Island’s high standards at this meeting; and what if any ramifications there are

for the Isle of Man following the recent G8 summit?

The President: We move to Question 1. I call upon the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr

Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 105

Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Question in my name.

The President: The Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, the Isle of Man Government has, for a 110

number of years and on a number of matters, worked tirelessly towards ensuring that relevant

decision-makers in the EU, G8, OECD and the United States are fully aware of the Island’s

commitment towards international standards. I was therefore somewhat surprised that the Hon.

Member asked how I intend to do this, especially as regular briefings are given to Members on

international matters and on how we are responding to international pressures. 115

It would be naive to assume that these countries and organisations have the Isle of Man high in

their considerations, except when our position conflicts with their policies. Neither can we expect

that they are always willing to accept that our position is satisfactory or compatible with their

aims. It is our approach to engage directly on specific issues with relevant officers and politicians,

using persuasive arguments, rather than to rely on untargeted messaging, which has limited impact 120

on decision-makers.

I can advise the Hon. Member that I was not summoned to Downing Street. I accepted an

invitation from the Prime Minister to meet him, together with the leaders of the Crown

dependencies and the overseas territories, and to attend an event on tax, trade and transparency.

During my meeting with the Prime Minister, I explained the Isle of Man’s excellent record on 125

tax transparency and adherence to international standards; our arrangements in respect of

beneficial ownership and how far ahead of other places, including the United Kingdom, we are;

and also the importance of establishing a global level playing field.

Arising from G8, we have agreed to review our beneficial ownership regime, as have the UK,

other Crown dependencies and overseas territories. We will publish our findings by 2014. 130

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

I thank the Ard-shirveishagh for his strong positive message that he has given out this morning. 135

Could he acknowledge that at least this Hon. Member has always acknowledged the efforts

that have gone on into ensuring that other jurisdictions, including the UK, are aware of our hard

work? It is certainly not naive of me, Eaghtyrane.

What does concern me, if the Ard-shirveishagh could come back on, is the fact that we seem to

be continually lumped in with other jurisdictions, and it was a way forward, my question, seeking 140

as to how we can un-lump ourselves and be disentangled from that, so that we are seen as a clear

blue-chip finance centre.


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The President: Chief Minister, can you disentangle?

145

The Chief Minister: If only I could.

Madam President, I appreciate the point that the Hon. Member is making and I am obviously

aware of his concern, and many others in the same vein.

I have been involved now with promoting the Isle of Man’s international agenda for well over

10 years and it is a baby-steps progress, I guess, towards persuading the international community 150

of what the true position of the Isle of Man is. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

In the later years, we have tried very, very hard though to separate the Crown dependencies, in

the first instance, from the overseas territories and other jurisdictions, because unquestionably the

Isle of Man’s progress in transparency and international co-operation on tax information exchange

is well ahead of most other jurisdictions. 155

I am pleased to say – although we will never get a certificate accepting the role – there is

undoubtedly a changing mood in recognising the steps that the Isle of Man has taken and that there

is now beginning to appear clear blue water between the Isle of Man and certain other

jurisdictions. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

We have, for the first time, started to get public praise from the UK. Treasury Minister, David 160

Gauke, has been quite supportive, and I met him, indeed, just a few days before the G8 meeting in

10 Downing Street. We are even starting to get some recognition and praise from some of the

NGOs. Christian Aid, in particular, was another organisation I met the week leading up to my

meeting with Mr Cameron.

So the work goes on. It will continue to go on, Madam President. 165

Unfortunately, one of the biggest enemies that the Isle of Man has is not necessary political: it

is Google. Whenever journalists write a story about the Isle of Man, they simply google a back

story on the Island and all that past history gets regurgitated again. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It is

often lazy journalism which actually leads to the perception that the Hon. Member refers to, as

much as anything else, and it is very difficult to counter that. 170

But I can give the Hon. Member an absolute assurance that the international agenda has to

remain absolutely at the top of our agenda ahead of pretty well everything else, frankly, because

unless we can fend off these attacks… and we have a further one coming up with G20 coming up

in September. We have the Vickers Report, which is coming up in relation to the banking industry.

These all have the potential to damage the Isle of Man, and therefore it is vitally important these 175

days to recognise the pivotal role of the international agenda and to ensure that we have the

resources – and the energy, frankly – to tackle the debate as it ensues.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Cannan.

180

Mr Cannan: Thank you, Madam President.

Can I ask the Chief Minister, has he seen the 85-page report initiated by Jersey Finance and

written by Capital Economics on Jersey’s value to Britain? Has it been brought to his attention,

and does he acknowledge that the report – which rebuts the tax haven argument and details Jersey

as supporting 176,000 jobs in the UK, along with investing billions of pounds’ worth of funds – is 185

highly relevant?

And will he instruct Economic Development to get on and try and catch up in this respect by

commissioning a similar report on the Isle of Man, which will help sell our case to the authorities,

particularly in Britain, and give us a strong document on which to argue our case?

190

The President: The Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: I am very aware of this document, Madam President. I have not read it

all yet – I have not had the chance – but I have seen the key points in it. It actually underpins the

identical report that the Isle of Man Government had done 12-18 months ago by Ernst & Young, 195

which was well ahead of Jersey, and in fact Jersey has followed the Isle of Man in carrying out the

same work. So I can assure the Hon. Member it is the Hon. Member who needs to catch up, not

Government, in terms of this report.

But the content, the basic argument, Madam President, both in the Ernst & Young report that

the Isle of Man has had done and the one by Capital Economics, gels also with the Foot Review, 200

which was carried out by the previous Labour government in the UK, which identifies that the Isle

of Man and the Crown dependencies are collectively a benefit to the United Kingdom economy –

not just through financial services through the City of London, but on a much broader basis. In

fact, if the Crown dependencies were to lose their financial services industry, they would not go


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into the UK. This business would go elsewhere and the likely beneficiaries would be places like 205

Singapore – further afield and well outside the reach of the United Kingdom government.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Skelly.

Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 210

Does the Chief Minister agree the Isle of Man’s commitment to tax regulation, financial

management, and indeed trying to stamp out tax avoidance… many of those nations that

constantly criticise us?

Can the Chief Minister give us an assurance that he will obtain the support and resource

necessary to promote our position internationally? 215

The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: I can give the Hon. Member the absolute assurance that sufficient

resources will be made available to ensure that we continue the strategy that we have developed. 220

It is a point I have made on a number of occasions, Madam President, over the years, and that

is that the whole international agenda of the Island, going back to the Edwards Report in 1997, has

been supported by at most, I think, six officers across the whole of Government, and that is on top

of their day job. They have done an absolutely outstanding job over those years to try and lead the

Isle of Man into safe waters when these international attacks have come, and they deserve our own 225

deep gratitude and thanks for the commitment and effort they have put in to protect the Isle of

Man’s reputation.

So I can give the Hon. Member an absolute assurance that that support will continue. No doubt

in my mind at all that the attacks on the Isle of Man and the Crown dependencies will also

continue. We have to accept that. There will be no quick fix on it. 230

As I have said on many occasions, Madam President, politicians love scapegoats and in the

present economic and fiscal climate that governments are having to work through at the moment,

the Crown dependencies, the offshore world generally, happen to be a convenient scapegoat, and I

am afraid we have to accept that and work with it and do our best to counter that argument.

235

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Crowe.

Mr Crowe: Thank you, Madam President.

Would you agree with me, Chief Minister, that the Island’s credibility was very much

enhanced by the recent award to the Isle of Man of the Best International Finance Centre in the 240

Professional Adviser International Fund and Product Awards, beating last year’s winner, Jersey,

into second place?

Would you also agree that this highlights the close working relationship of the private and

public sector to deliver innovative and excellent services? As you know, businesses based in the

Isle of Man won over half of this year’s awards. 245


The Chief Minister: Yes, I would agree wholeheartedly, Madam President, and I think the

criteria set for this particular award, which the Isle of Man has not won for a number of years, was 250

in fact its adherence to international transparency and tax information exchange. So we have had

an acknowledgment by a highly regarded private sector entity in awarding the Isle of Man the

status of lead offshore jurisdiction.

I do also agree with the Hon. Member that a lot of this is dependent on continuing a close

collaborative relationship between Government and the private sector, and I hope that will 255

continue for many years to come.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that the issue raised by the 260

Hon. Member for Rushen is a very valid one, about getting our PR over – the fact that the Isle of

Man is a far more responsible jurisdiction than many bigger ones, such as the City of London,

New York and particularly Delaware, and that we need to find a way of getting that PR out so that

we do not get blackened unreasonably, allowing for the fact that we are more regulated here than

they are in many of these so-called places that we are supposed to be emulating? 265


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The Chief Minister: I can only repeat again, Madam President, that Government is doing all it

possibly can to promote this position of the Isle of Man. 270

I think over the last few weeks we have begun to see the tide turn. We have had some

extensive publicity on television, radio and through the media, and indeed through the professional

media as well. We should be aware though that it is not just stories which appear in the paper

which add to the Isle of Man’s credibility. The PR exercise that we are often engaged in is actually

killing negative stories in the first place, so they do not actually appear in the media – so that in 275

itself is part of the PR exercise.

Certainly places like Delaware are now starting to appear on the international agenda. It was

certainly raised… I raised it personally with David Cameron in 10 Downing Street, and there was

an interesting article in the FT a few days earlier, which identified a single building in Delaware,

housing 278,000 separate companies, and the Delaware authorities do not know the beneficial 280

ownership of a single one of them.

I think that puts it into context when the Isle of Man has a regime here where by law we have

to know the beneficial owner of every entity, whether it is corporate or trust, before they can

operate on the Isle of Man. That shows the gulf between the reality of the Isle of Man and the

fictitious role, and hypocritical role, that the United States in particular plays on this. 285

Several Members: Hear, hear.

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Skelly.

290

Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

Does the Chief Minister agree the Isle of Man is now, more than ever, gaining international

respect for its clear stance on tax avoidance and such practices?

Does he further agree our work and commitment to the Small Countries Financial Management

Programme promotes the Isle of Man not just as a well regulated and competitive tax regime, but a 295

socially responsible nation?


The President: Chief Minister. 300

The Chief Minister: I think the benefit of the Small Countries Financial Management

Programme is now starting to be recognised on a much broader basis than it was before.

It was set up four or five years ago – I was involved in setting it up – initially to help build

capacity in developing countries. That has been very, very beneficial in itself. But the scheme 305

itself, as it has been operating, had great level of comment, particularly by Christian Aid when I

met them in London and over the Lancaster House conference. That most definitely has been a

major boost to the Isle of Man, and it is something that I am pleased the international development

now have got involved in.

I think it can only go from strength to strength, not only helping those countries in need of 310

help, but also promoting the Isle of Man as a responsible jurisdiction, giving benefit back to those

developing countries, based on our own experience.

Civil Service staff

Numbers leaving and reasons

2. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chief Minister:

How many staff left the Civil Service broken down by reason for leaving (a) of SEO rank and

below and (b) above SEO grade since 2009; how many manual workers have left since 2009;

and how many senior managers from the same Departments or Statutory Boards (i) have

retired, (ii) taken MARS and (iii) taken up other employment opportunities?

The President: Question 2, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran.


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Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name. 315

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, between 1st April 2009 and 31st March

2013 inclusive, in total 820 members of staff left the Civil Service. Of those at Senior Executive 320

Officer level and below, 778 left the Service, and of those above Senior Executive Officer level,

42 left the Service.

With regard to manual workers – which for the purposes of this Question is taken to be manual

and craft workers employed by the Departments and Boards under Whitley Council terms and

conditions – in total, 770 left their employment between 1st April 2009 and 31st March 2013 325

inclusive.

Turning now to the final part of the Question – which, for the purpose of providing a response

to the Hon. Member, is taken to relate to civil servants above SEO level who left the Service

between 1st April 2009 and 31st March 2013 inclusive – in this regard I can confirm that 14

individuals retired; two left under the provisions of the Commission’s Mutually Agreed 330

Resignation Scheme; 21 resigned; and five left for other reasons.

All of these figures exclude seasonal and casual staff.


335

Mr Karran: I thank the Ard-shirveishagh for his reply.

Can the Ard-shirveishagh assure us that we are actually losing the amount of jobs

proportionally throughout… under this Question?

Does the Ard-shirveishagh feel that we need to make sure that, if we are getting rid of the

manual workers, we need to make sure that we are getting rid of the management and 340

administration that is there supposedly to run the people that have left? What is his Government’s

view as far as the issue of making sure this is proportionate as far as this issue is concerned?


345

The Chief Minister: Madam President, the Government’s view is exactly the same view as

the Hon. Member has been told on a number of occasions previously, and that is all roles across

Government are currently under review, whether they are at a senior management or a manual or

craft level, and with the evolution and implementation of the recommendations of the Scope of

Government, we will be seeing further changes down the road. 350

Different Departments will be moving at different speeds and there will be obviously very

much a reliance on negotiating or reviewing the terms and conditions to enable these changes to

take place. So there will not be a single big bang where all of the posts we need to lose will

disappear overnight, but it will be an incremental change which will take probably a number of

years before it is finally worked through. 355


Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh believe that it is proportionate that we

are seeing at the moment, as far as the breakdown, as far as jobs have been going in all sections as 360

far as Government is concerned… and does he feel that maybe there are some cases where

capability would have been the right way forward, instead of using these processes to get rid of

certain people?


The Chief Minister: I do not fully understand what the Hon. Member means by

proportionality. The changes will take place right across the whole employment spectrum in

Government in due course as these various changes are implemented. There will be a range of

reasons why members leave, and capability clearly will be one of those items under consideration. 370

The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk.


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Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President.

Can I ask the Chief Minister if all Government Departments and Statutory Boards are engaging 375

in the exercises – also, if they are engaging in the exercises too, that we do not lose the skills that

we require to run a Government?


380

The Chief Minister: That is always the danger, Madam President, particularly where we rely

on natural wastage to reduce the numbers.

Unfortunately, on occasions, the wastage does not necessarily happen in areas that we want to

waste and we have to be very careful not to lose key members of Departments and Boards in the

drive to downsize the overall structure of Government. That would be counterproductive and may 385

well actually end up costing us more in the end, and so we have to be very conscious of that.

Are all Departments working together? Some are working and are more committed and see the

writing on the wall more clearly than others. I will be quite honest about that. Some Departments

are stepping up to the plate and embracing the concept of change which we are trying to drive

through with some enthusiasm, relish and commitment; others are somewhat more Micawber-like 390

and hoping that one day something will turn up and it will not have to happen.

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree, as he fails to understand, that 395

one of the complaints outside this Hon. Court is the fact that it is not proportionate in the fact that

there seems to be more of an emphasis on the manual side to the management side, and if there is

no manual side to manage, then surely it has to be proportionate as far as the posts that need to be

left leaving out of the Government service?

400


The Chief Minister: I have already answered that question, Madam President.

If the Hon. Member has a specific example that he is concerned about, I would be very happy

to hear it. 405

Civil Service pay

Freezing of increments


What proposals his Government has to follow UK policy and to freeze increments in particular

for those in a senior managerial position?


Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I ask the Question standing in my name.

The President: Chief Minister to reply. 410

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, as Hon. Members may be aware, the

Chancellor of the Exchequer announced, as part of the recent UK spending round for 2013, his

intention to end automatic time-served progression pay in the UK Civil Service by 2015-16. This

announcement is in line with substantial reforms to progression pay which will be taken forward 415

or are already underway in the UK for teachers, the National Health Service, prisons and Police.

His intention in this respect is very clear, and it is to ensure that public sector workers do not

receive pay increases purely as a result of time in post, but that such progression is, quite rightly,

linked directly to performance.

Having said that, in the Isle of Man context, it must be for each individual employing authority 420

across central Government to consider the reforms being given effect in the United Kingdom

public sector, including the ending of automatic pay progression, and to determine the extent to


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which their implementation is appropriate in the Isle of Man. Where such reforms are considered

to be appropriate for implementation locally, then they will need to be progressed through

established collective bargaining mechanisms. 425

The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree – thanking the Minister for his reply – that

the fact is, to start off with, the stopping of automatic increments would help to start addressing the 430

inaccuracies, as far as the public sector employees receive, on average, a more generous total

remuneration package to the private sector, and also it would start addressing the issue as far as the

public sector pension liabilities we have got for the next generation?


The Chief Minister: There are a number of sectors that we have, such the Police, teachers etc,

Madam President, which are already analogous to UK pay awards and pay structures, and they

will apply to the Isle of Man anyway, quite separate from what we do with the rest of the

workforce. But undoubtedly we have to keep a lid on the scale of expenditure that we have on 440

salaries right across Government, and as this progresses I am sure Government will be looking

more closely to see if it is appropriate to introduce here as well.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.

445

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President.

Would the Chief Minister agree that if it was possible to have a pay freeze completely across

the board, it would actually help as far redundancies etc go?

Ministers, I understand, have a freeze on their salary budget, so any increase means that they

are losing members of staff automatically without any other the budgetary cuts, just by having a 450

freeze on that salary budget. If the staff themselves were to be willing to take a pay freeze, it

would stop the redundancies.

Would the Chief Minister agree with that: it would be a sensible way forward?


The Chief Minister: Madam President, that has been the policy of the Isle of Man

Government for some four or five years now. The message has been spelt out very, very clearly on

many occasions, and certainly at every budget time this very message has been pushed out: there is

no increase in departmental budgets for wage increases, and any wage increases which are 460

negotiated have to then be balanced against cuts elsewhere in that Department’s services to pay for

that business. That has been the rule now for a number of years and will continue to be so, Madam

President.

The President: Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan. 465

The Chairman of the Civil Service Commission (Mr Cannan): Thank you.

Will the Chief Minister agree with me that the matter of incremental pay rises was discussed at

the Civil Service Commission board meeting last week, literally days after the announcement from

the Chancellor, and that at the moment it is appropriate that the watching brief is maintained until 470

full details of this proposal are made clear; but it is fair to say that time-served incremental pay

looks increasingly out of place in the modern era of performance related pay?

Also, will he agree with me that the Civil Service Commission and the Whitley Council, over

the last two years in particular, have time and time again emphasised to the unions that any

negotiated pay rises would probably result in job losses, and that indeed this year Whitley Council 475

in particular have recently balloted to consider whether a 0% pay rise or pay award is, in fact,

appropriate?


480

The Chief Minister: Yes, I agree entirely with the Hon. Member, who is the Chairman of the

Civil Service Commission and has been very closely involved in this and will continue to be so.


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These messages which are referred to by various Members have been very, very clearly and

starkly spelt out to both the unions and the workforce now for some time, they will continue to be

spelt out and we will be looking very much at the progress that they make in the UK with the 485

restructuring of the pay scales they have over there.

The only caution I would make is that we do need to sit back for a little while and just see what

is actually going to be delivered in the United Kingdom, as opposed to the political rhetoric which

is being cast around, because it may well be a very different animal by the time they have finished

with their own restructuring. 490

So I think the Hon. Member’s comments about… certainly in the short term, a watching brief

to find out how this evolves is absolutely the right way forward.


495

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree – on about political rhetoric –

to say there have no pay increases in the last couple of years would be wrong, as far as the public

service is concerned?

And would he not agree that the Hon. Member for South Douglas is asking a legitimate

question, that we need to have a pay freeze throughout the public service in order to help protect 500

services that he and I, over the last nearly 30 years, have seen develop in order to provide a caring

and prosperous society?


505

The Chief Minister: I did not say there have not been any pay increases, Madam President.

What I said was that the pay budget allocated to Departments has been frozen – it is a very

different thing.

We know there have been limited pay rises of 1% to 1.5% in various areas and the unions have

negotiated those in the very clear understanding that there will have to be set-off, almost certainly, 510

in jobs to pay for it.

I can only repeat to the Hon. Member that this whole strategy has been in place for a number of

years. The Liberal Vannin Party has not just discovered the wheel. This has been operating now

for a number of years and will continue to do so.

Nunnery Estate

Options for use, sale or lease

4. The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

If he will make a statement on options for use, sale or lease of the buildings and land in the

Government-owned Nunnery Estate?

The President: Question 4, the Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas. 515

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President.

Before begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name, can I, as a point of order, place

on record that my wife and I own the Dolls House, which means that we are neighbours of the

Government-owned Nunnery Estate. 520

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.


The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): At the present time, the Department of Education and Children 525

is reviewing whether or not the Nunnery Estate will continue to be required as part of their

provision for higher education on the Island. Currently, many more courses are located on the site

than had been the case prior to the amalgamation of the International Business School with the Isle

of Man College. These courses will need to be located elsewhere if the Department of Education

and Children ceases using the Nunnery. 530

If the outcome of that review is that the Department moves forward with a plan which sees

them vacating the site, the Government will have to give serious consideration as to its future


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within public ownership. Given the present fiscal constraints that the Island faces, there may be a

need to realise the financial value of the estate, which could see it moved out of public ownership.

Given that the matter is currently under review, it is premature to discuss the nature of any 535

potential disposal, be that sale, lease or other method.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Chief Minister and Madam President. 540

What criteria will be used, Chief Minister, to evaluate any offers from potential purchasers or

leasers if you choose to realise the value, as you said, of the various buildings and parts of the

estate?


The Chief Minister: Madam President, the criteria will be set when a decision is made to sell

it.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk. 550


Can I ask the Chief Minister, regarding the particular Nunnery Estate, that it has been sold

before and repurchased and can we not learn the lessons that we did years ago?

555


The Chief Minister: Which lessons are those, Madam President?

The President: Does the Hon. Member wish to elucidate? Apparently not. 560

The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: And the second question to the Chief Minister – thank you, Madam President –

is will Government extend public access to areas such as the riverbank and water meadows, to

enhance the maintenance and use of one of the few remaining open spaces in Douglas, providing a 565

park and a green lung for Douglas, as Mr Lowey MLC described it back in 2002 when the master

plan for recreational as well as educational use of the Nunnery Estate was agreed in this Hon.

Court?


The Chief Minister: Madam President, no decision at all has been made yet as to the future of

either the house or the land and estates around about it, and so that question is premature at this

stage, depending on what the outcome of these further discussions concern.

I would, though, remind Members once again that we have lost a third of our income through 575

the changes in VAT. We have not got the money that we enjoyed five, six, seven or eight years

ago when we could comfortably have accommodated the ownership and development of both the

Nunnery and the grounds round about it, and therefore there will be a financial imperative to

ensure that whatever the future of the Nunnery might be it is at no further cost to the Manx

taxpayer. 580

A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Quirk.

585


Can I seek an assurance then from the Chief Minister that Members will be informed on the

stages to go forward?


The Chief Minister: Of course.


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595

Mr Karran: Would the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that obviously our priority on any

Government site, as far as the purchasing or the selling on and the future purchasing by the private

sector, is that we need to develop a strategy where we maximise economic activity and create jobs

as far as that site is concerned?

And will he take on board the suggestions that were put forward, as his former Minister, that 600

something on the lines of the petit hotel and this land at the southern end of the site being

developed as small business units in order to create the economic activity to create the jobs and the

income for both Government services and for our children as far as jobs are concerned?


The Chief Minister: Once the Department of Education and Children has finally decided on

the future location of those using the Nunnery at the moment, then we will move on to what the

best use outside of Government control would be appropriate, and clearly growing the economy,

stimulating the economy and protecting the expenditure of the Isle of Man taxpayer has to be at 610

the foremost thoughts of Government at this time.

Freedom of information legislation

Date for introduction

5. The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:

When the Chief Minister intends to introduce freedom of information legislation?

The President: Question 5, the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Madam President, I ask the Question standing in my name.

615

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, Hon. Members already have this

information.

The Council of Ministers agreed a list of 71 objectives which underpin the delivery of the 620

Council of Ministers’ priorities as identified in the Agenda for Change document. My officers sent

this list to all Tynwald Members on Friday, 21st June 2013, which is just over two weeks ago,

with information about the new performance website.

The list of objectives and the website both clearly state that, under the Good Government

policy theme, I intend to introduce a Bill to the branches which provides a legislative framework 625

for suitable freedom of information rights by 31st December this year. That date is largely

dependent, though, on officers being able to devote time to finish preparing the Bill and being able

to finance a project, which will span Government, to train staff and make procedural preparations.

It has not been possible to assign a person full time to this. However, I hope to be in a position

to rectify this very soon. In the meantime, there is a very good Code of Practice on Access to 630

Information, and all areas of Government must follow it. The Code allows a complaint that a

request for information has been refused inappropriately to be referred to the Commissioner for

review. The Council of Ministers has given assurances that it will look to review and enforce any

decision by the Commissioner which suggests that a Department, Board or Office ought to have

released information or has refused to do so. 635

Introducing this legislative framework to replace the Code is still a priority and performance

towards a target date of 31st December will be publicly reported on quarterly, with the first

performance report due before the end of this month.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Speaker. 640

The Speaker: Madam President, in thanking the Chief Minister for stating that commitment,

can I ask, does he acknowledge that the duty of governments generally to provide information to


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the public has been quite forcibly stated, as recently as last month, in the Lough Erne Declaration

of the G8, and I quote paragraph 10: 645

‘Governments should publish information on laws, budgets, spending, national statistics, elections and government

contracts in a way that is easy to read and re-use, so that citizens can hold them to account.’

Would he not agree that, until we actually get this legislation, the ability of Manx citizens to

hold their Government to account currently falls short of international standards?

Mr Thomas: Hear, hear.

650


The Chief Minister: No, I do not.

The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft. 655


Would the Chief Minister consider the tendering process and the contracts with Government

alongside the freedom of information, because a lot of time it seems to be a stumbling block, the

confidentiality clauses that are within those contracts? 660

Possibly a solution to that, if the Chief Minister would consider it, would be to give, say, a

three-year notice period that at the end of those three years every Government contract, once it is

awarded, will not contain that confidentiality clause, because it is taxpayers’ money we are

spending. I think the taxpayers have a right to know.

665

The President: Somewhat peripheral to the original Question.

Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Yes, it moves the whole issue on a bit further, Madam President.

Obviously, though, procurement and Government contracts will be part of freedom of 670

information; but we must not underestimate just how effective the current Code of Practice is. It

has worked very effectively over the last few years. Most of the statistics, the information that

Hon. Mr Speaker has referred to, are already in the public domain and have been for many years,

so there are no shortcomings in those areas.

There are some areas perhaps that we need to improve on, but to my knowledge there have 675

been very, very few instances of information being refused to any applicant for any subject, and

indeed the Commissioner we have appointed has a very limited role to play, in terms of the

number of cases referred to him.

The other issue, though, which we must not lose sight of, is that this whole measure, if brought

in in its full context – especially looking at experience elsewhere – will be a very expensive 680

exercise, and our estimate is anything up to £1 million will be needed to fully implement this piece

of legislation, to train officers, to employ officers and that money, Madam President, will have to

come from departmental expenditure. We will need to decide amongst ourselves at that point

whether in fact we can justify perhaps cutting £1 million off the Health Service, or we bring in the

freedom information in exchange. 685

I have to say, Madam President, I believe that freedom of information is important, it is an

important part of Government, and I am committed to introducing this, but it has to be put clearly

in the context of the priorities that we are working through across Government at the moment.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Quayle. 690

Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President.

Can the Chief Minister give assurances that there will be procedures in place to stop the abuses

of the freedom of information legislation by a very small number of people, who therefore cause

significant costs, as he has alluded to in his previous answer, for the taxpayer, and which has been 695

the experience of other jurisdictions?



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The Chief Minister: The Hon. Member makes a very important point, Madam President. 700

There is no question that there are a small number of people who have abused this system in the

United Kingdom, in the Channel Islands and in other areas where it has operated, and it is

absolutely important that whatever shape the Bill ultimately takes, when it comes to the House of

Keys, these measures are included, that the process, while intending to help inform the public as

widely as possible, is not abused by the obsessive nature of one or two individuals who will pursue 705

certain issues to the death.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk.

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. 710

I thank the Chief Minister for saying it is going to cost £1 million.

Could I ask the Chief Minister, then, have he or his officers considered actually amending the

Code slightly, instead of, say… as an alternative to the access to information? The requests to the

Code are very small. I know I have used it myself a few times, and I am sure the Speaker has used

it more times than me, but my concern would be – would it not be the same as his? – that they 715

would be frivolous requests and they would have to be satisfied at a cost?


The Chief Minister: It is a valid point, Madam President, and I do not think there is a huge 720

jump from the Code of Practice that we have at the moment, which has worked very effectively, to

what is envisaged to be in the actual Freedom of Information Bill. But whichever form it takes and

whatever title it might have at the end of it, it is important that this new process is not open to

abuse, which in the long term will end up costing Government, costing Departments, in both

finance and in time, a disproportionate amount of energy. 725

The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Ard-shirveishagh clarify for the previous questioner that

the Code of Practice does not cost £1 million at the present time, and he is talking about the… 730

getting mixed up –

Mr Quirk: Point of order, Madam President.

I did not say that it cost £1 million – to the Member for Onchan.

735

Mr Karran: You did! So if he could clarify what he is actually on about, as far £1 million is

concerned.

But could the Ard-shirveishagh not agree that a simple request by my hon. colleague and friend

from South Douglas, as far as the tendering procedures, of saying now that they will be open and

transparent as far as who does the tendering, would be a simple step forward and would actually 740

be a cheap way of starting along the road of freedom of information, allowing for the fact there is

something in the region of about 50% of the spending power in the Manx economy comes through

Government spend, either indirectly or directly, through the people employed getting money from

Government?

Would he not agree that it would be a good move forward, particularly allowing for the fact 745

that this Hon. Court expresses concern with the likes of the construction industry is something like

80% dependent on Government spend at the present time, that we could get this simple principle

forward, that tendering for Government contracts should be completely open and transparent and

anyone who applies should be then able to see who got the contract and at what price, particularly

with the spending power of Government? 750

The President: Chief Minister – it sounds like a repeat of an earlier question.

The Chief Minister: It is exactly a repeat of the earlier question, Madam President. The Hon.

Member clearly did not hear my answer the first time round, and that is that the elements of 755

procurement of Government contracts will be included in the freedom of information Bill.

Most of this information is already available and will continue to be available. There is a

difference between the Code of Practice and having the full-blown Freedom of Information Bill in,

in the level of training and appointing dedicated officers specifically to deal with something,

frankly, which may never appear. That is where the cost is going to be built into this. 760


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1564 T130

It has cost certainly Jersey way in advance of what they had anticipated, and Tony Blair, for

example, is on record in stating that one of the biggest mistakes, apart from the obvious glaring

one, (Laughter) that he made during his term of office was introducing the Freedom of

Information Bill and Act into the United Kingdom, which has been abused wholeheartedly from

day one and cost the UK government and the UK taxpayer a huge amount of money as a result of 765

it.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Madam President, particularly following on from the last comment, would the 770

Chief Minister nonetheless, despite clear misgivings about the value of shining lights on areas of

government that governments may prefer to keep hidden… that this legislation will address to

modern standards the question of exclusions and redaction of information that is in fact issued,

which in some jurisdictions makes actually having the legislation pretty well next to useless,

because in fact the exclusion categories are so extensive? 775


The Chief Minister: There will undoubtedly, in any new legislation, Madam President, have

to be areas which are redacted, and there will also need to be recognition of commercial 780

confidentiality, otherwise Government will not get anyone prepared to do business with it future.

We need to go into this with our eyes open. This is not rolling out everything for the public to

scrutinise and pick over, and perhaps abuse for either their own commercial ends or their own

personal vendettas that they are carrying forward.

This has to be sensible, properly thought-through legislation which is pragmatic, which serves 785

the public in providing the information that they need, but not which is going to be at a

considerable burden to the Manx taxpayer or indeed gum up the works of the progress of

Government in the process.

TREASURY

Income Tax

Reassessment of income and profits

6. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Whether it is the policy of the Treasury for income and profits that have been assessed for

Manx Income Tax (albeit calculated at the rate of 0%) for a year of assessment to be assessed

again for Manx Income Tax for a later year of assessment?

The President: Question 6. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.

790


I ask the Question standing in my name.

The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply.

795

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President.

With the exception of those companies subject to Income Tax at a 10% rate of tax in respect of

income received from banking business, land and property in the Isle of Man and, with effect from

6th April 2013, companies that carry on retail business in the Isle of Man, an… [Inaudible]

£500,000 from such business or other income that accompanies these, is liable to Income Tax at a 800

0% rate. Therefore, the income of a company resident in the Isle of Man is subject to Income Tax

at either a 0% or 10% rate. This income will not be taxed again on the company.

Any individual taxpayer resident on the Isle of Man is liable to Income Tax on their total

worldwide income, and therefore, if they hold shares in a company, they will be taxed on the

income they receive from their investment at the normal rates of individual taxation, depending on 805

the taxpayer’s personal circumstances.

Thank you, Madam President.


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1565 T130

The President: A supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.

810


I thank the Minister for his Answer, but could he confirm that even though taxable income and

profits are currently subject to a zero rate of taxation, that they will not be subject to taxation again

at a different rate possibly in future years?

815

The President: Minister.

The Minister: I think what the Hon. Member is trying to draw out is that there could be a

change of taxation policy in future years. I cannot give any guarantee which would bind my

successors in office. 820

What I can say is that the general principle is – and I articulated in the original Answer – that

when the profits are distributed to the shareholders, then that becomes a taxable amount.


825


If the Minister could bear with me, perhaps I could clarify what I am trying to get at. It is

simply that you have a profit before taxation. Then you have taxation. Then you have profit after

taxation. Whether that is 0%, 10% or 20%, it is still a profit after taxation. If it is distributed, it has

already been subject to taxation, and so surely that is classed as capital then because it has been 830

taxed, even though it is at 0% at the moment.

The Minister: This is –

The President: Minister. 835

The Minister: Sorry, Madam President, I was a bit too enthusiastic there. (Laughter)

This is dealt with under section 25A to 25C of the Income Tax Act 1970, which provides that

where a company has paid tax on the profits, the dividend payment, when it is made to the

beneficial shareholder, will carry a tax relief. So then, when the individual who has had the 840

distribution from the company completes their tax return, they put in that tax return the fact that

this payment was what they call a franked income with a 10% tax credit attached to it, and they

can offset that against their own personal income. That applies to non-corporate taxpayers, I

should add.

Taxation of income and profit

Balance regarded as capital


Whether it is Treasury policy that any balance of income and profit (after the deduction of

relevant annual operating and living expenses and of Manx Income Tax for the relevant year

of assessment) that is retained by an Isle of Man resident person, whether individual or

corporate, is thereafter properly regarded as capital in the hands of that Isle of Man resident

person?

The President: Question 7. The Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft. 845



The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. 850


The short Answer to this Question is no, a person’s gross income after the deduction of any

allowable expenses and tax is simply their net income.


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1566 T130

In general terms, in the Isle of Man any person who receives income is charged with Income 855

Tax on that income. For example, the salary that I receive for my office as Treasury Minister is

clearly income in my hands and is liable to Income Tax.

However, is the Hon. Member suggesting that at some point this income somehow changes

into capital? If I spend my after-tax or net income to pay for a taxi fare or purchase goods in a

shop, the income that I spend becomes gross income in the hands of the recipient and is again 860

chargeable to Income Tax after the deduction of any allowable expenses. The taxi driver or

shopkeeper does not receive a capital payment. In taking this principle forward in respect of a

corporate taxpayer, the income of a company resident in the Isle of Man is subject to Income Tax

at either a 0% or 10% rate.

However, the subsequent payment of moneys, in the form of an income distribution to 865

shareholders, is their income and duly subject to Income Tax in the hands of those recipients.


The President: A further supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.

870


I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply, but where a company has already had its

Income Taxed at 0%, and then it is distributed, and then the individual Manx resident claims the

tax relief on that because it has already been subject to tax, how is the Minister reconciling that to

previous statements where he says that it is only deferring a tax bill, because clearly there is going 875

to be no tax paid on it?


The Minister: I think it is quite clear: either the company pays the tax, or the shareholder 880

does.

Income Tax Act 1970

Primary legislation re section 2PA


Whether the Treasury Minister intends to introduce primary legislation to give effect to

practice note PN 174/12 and guidance note GN 49 which purport to give effect to the

operation of section 2PA of the Income Tax Act 1970?



I ask the Question standing in my name. 885



Practice note PN 174/12 and guidance note GN 49 are not intended to give effect to section 890

2PA of the Income Tax Act 1970. The guidance note states in the opening paragraph:

‘This guide explains the Isle of Man legislation, policy and practice regarding the taxation of distributions made by

resident corporate taxpayers.’

The Assessor has for many years issued guidance and concessions in relation to the complex

subject of distribution from companies. A practice note was issued in order to bring this guidance

up to date. Both the practice and guidance notes actually relax the strict interpretation of section

2PA and ensure that fairness is applied in the taxation of distributions. The detailed guidance note 895

was only issued after extensive discussions which took place within a technical sub-group of the

Tax Liaison Committee.

As for primary legislation, I have said before that if Treasury is obliged to introduce new

legislation or amend current legislation in any way relating to distribution from companies, we


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1567 T130

would be obliged to report it to the European Code of Conduct Group. We could therefore find 900

ourselves, once again, in a period of uncertainty.

I hope that Hon. Members will agree with me that it is imperative that we maintain a

competitive tax position which maintains business confidence and encourages investment in our

economy whilst protecting our tax base.

905



Could the Minister then confirm, if primary legislation is not to be introduced, how Manx

resident companies and individuals can be expected to proceed with any certainty when both 910

practice note 174/12 and guidance note GN 49 state that they do not have any binding force?

Could the Minister confirm whether or not it is now policy of Treasury to dispense with

primary legislation and to implement additions, subtractions and amendments to the Income Tax

Acts by way of practice notes and guidance notes?

915


The Minister: I cannot and do not have the vires to alter the original legislation by the issuing

of a practice note.

Now I will go back to what I said in my original Answer: the practice note was guidance and 920

clarification, purely that. By issuing this practice note, we have done exactly what it says on the

tin. We have confirmed to industry what would happen following the withdrawal of the ARI

system and the distributable profits computation system as well. So it has brought clarity to it and

it helps also to protect the Island’s tax base.

925

The President: A final supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.


Could I just remind the Treasury Minister… I do not believe he answered the first part of my

supplementary question saying how can people have confidence going forward when they do not 930

have any binding force?


The Minister: They can have confidence because these practice notes and guidance notes we 935

issue are crystal clear. We do discuss it with the industry as a whole. We get their input and we

clarify with them that what we are proposing is going to deliver, in their professional opinion,

what we are looking for.

I have to say, Madam President, that the tone of the Question seems to infer that the Hon.

Member and her Party feel that we should be avoiding tax (Mrs Beecroft: No.) and that their 940

Party is not encouraging people… (Interjection by Mr Karran) She is not encouraging people to

pay what is due. The Income Tax Department takes a very proactive stance –

Mrs Beecroft: Madam President, a point of order.

945

The President: A point of order. Yes, your point is?

Mrs Beecroft: My point is that I have never even insinuated that anybody should avoid paying

tax. Just for clarification.

950

The Minister: I did say it was the general tone of the Question, Madam President. I apologise

if it has been taken incorrectly.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you.

955

The Minister: But what I would say is that the Income Tax Department take a very proactive

stance against those who try to avoid their regulations, and last year there was a very significant

sum recovered from people who thought they could get away with it.


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1568 T130

Public sector pensions

Additional costs

9. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Ronan) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Recent figures from the Public Sector Pensions Authority show that in the period from 2007-08

when UK interest rates were 5.5% to 2012-13 when interest rates were 0.5% the average lump

sum payment drawn from an Isle of Man Government public sector pension by a retiree

increased by 72%; what therefore has been the total additional pension cost since 2007-08 to

the Isle of Man taxpayer of UK policy decisions on interest rates and quantitative easing, and

how much additional cost is being borne each year currently because of this policy?

The President: Question 9, the Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan.

960

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my

name.


965


This Answer is a bit longer than my usual answers, so if I could crave the Hon. Court’s

indulgence.

The Hon. Member for Castletown may have used the total lump sum figures presented by the

Vice-Chairman of the PSPA in response to Written Question 4, asked in another place on 25th 970

June. However, the lump sum figures given in that response include death-in-service benefits and

therefore are not representative of the lump sum accounts drawn by retirees during that period.

There is no direct link between levels of interest rates and pensions paid under the Unified

Pension Scheme. The level of pension earned is based on salary in service. Those retiring can

choose to commute some of their pension entitlement for a lump sum, and the terms under which 975

this is done have been approved under the Unified Scheme so that, for example, a public servant

can receive £18 lump sum for each £1 of annual pension sacrificed, compared with £12 to £1 ratio

previously. This largely explains the increase in the average value of lump sum payments being

taken.

The taking of lump sum payments can assist Government in managing the long-term cost of 980

pensions, as a significant portion of the cost is paid at the time of retirement rather than spread

over the remaining life of the pensioner and overall liabilities will not be affected badly if life

expectancy rises further.

Whilst the level of pension and lump sum are not influenced by interest rates, they do have an

impact on our current pension liabilities. This is because, in order to determine what our current 985

liabilities are, we must calculate a balance on which we will earn interest until such time as the

pension is paid out. The lower the rates of interest we assume, the higher the level of our current

liabilities. In pension jargon, this assumed rate of return is known as a discount rate.

The discount rate is based on the return you would get on a low-risk investment such as a UK

government gilt. Quantitative easing has meant that the UK Bank of England had bought gilts, 990

pushing up their price and reducing the income, in yield terms, they produce. This has reduced the

discount rate used in pension schemes and will, as a result, increase levels of current liabilities

being reported.

For the Isle of Man, the UK government’s actuarial department advise us of the discount rate

to use. We do not commission a report every year. Since 2007-08, the closest report to the period 995

requested is the one prepared in 2006, which used the discount rate of 5.4%, compared with the

current rate of 4.4%. A 1% downward movement in the discount rate will add approximately £500

million to current liabilities, which could be reasonably assumed to be the cost of quantitative

easing or reduced interest rates on pension liabilities.

I should add a final note of caution: discount rates will inevitably change and go up and down 1000

with market movements. As such, they are not good indicators for long-term policy decisions.

In designing the Unified Scheme, we examined cashflows, money in and out, and projected

these forward in order to plan a new pension scheme. In fact, we are ahead of those projections

because, for example, salary increases have been lower than expected.

An approach to managing pension costs based on a number of factors seems to me better than 1005

relying only on one factor in which might be a volatile market. That said, we are committed to

regular actuarial reviews of the Unified Scheme and if these show that long-term costs have


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1569 T130

increased we will take the necessary action to manage the situation, sharing the cost between

employer and employee.

Thank you, Madam President. 1010

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. I also thank the Minister for his long and

comprehensive reply, which obviously we will have to go through at a later date. 1015

Will the Minister not agree that substantially increasing Manx taxpayers’ liability of public

sector pensions based on UK policy is unacceptable, and that on this basis alone there needs to be

an urgent review of the relationship between contributions made and money paid out for all Public

Sector Pension Authority pension schemes?

Will he also agree to consider a revised scheme, where total liability for moneys paid out 1020

should be capped as a multiple of either contributions made or final salary?


The Minister: It is a very difficult subject, but we have to acknowledge too that we have to 1025

have an attractive package to get quality staff. It is not only the Civil Service who are covered by

the Unified Pension Scheme; it is also social workers and health workers as well, so it covers a

very wide range of employees. If we do not have an attractive proposition on the whole it is going

to be difficult to get these people to come to the Island.

What I would say is that one of the things that we did say in 2006-07, when we brought in 1030

these proposals, was that there will be an ongoing review after an initial period to ensure that any

increase in cost would be shared between both the employer and the employee.

So to respond to the Hon. Member’s question, yes, we recognise that there are issues but this is

not set in concrete – it will be subject to review.

1035

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh Tashtee not agree that any movement

towards running away from this situation, when he talks about long-termism, it will mean that

action that will have to be taken in the next administration, and the one after that will be a 1040

nightmare scenario?

And would he not agree that the fact is that what will be even a worse scenario is not having

the responsible administration that makes sure that these pension commitments can be honoured

long term? That is why the Hon. Member for Castletown is putting this Question down.

Does he not feel it is important that he gets the support as far as this issue is concerned? 1045

Otherwise, we could see the public service being decimated in order to cover the public sector

pension liability.


1050

The Minister: Actually, there are two different ways of looking at this. This is the headline

figure of the overall pension liabilities, which is £2 billion – a very frightening and substantial

figure. However, when the proposals for the revised pension scheme for public servants was

drawn up and published – back in 2006, I think it was – it was quite clear that to close the existing

scheme and to bring forward a new scheme based on a money purchase scheme would have been 1055

catastrophic, in terms of the impact upon our revenue, because we would have had a liability to

pay out for existing pensions under the terms of the old scheme, whilst also having to put money

aside for our new or current employees. In other words, we would have had to double up on

payments straight away, which quite clearly could not have been afforded.

What has been demonstrated is that the new scheme has been predicated on a cashflow model 1060

i.e. money in and money out. The original projections which were made have been comfortably

exceeded and, in terms cashflow, what we have now is affordable. But I would confirm once again

what I said in my answer to the Hon. Member for Castletown, that this will be subject to review.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Ronan. 1065


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1570 T130

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President.

I also agree with the Treasury Minister, this is a very difficult subject but it is a subject that

needs tackling.

Will the Minister ensure that no further changes are made or enacted to any Isle of Man public 1070

sector pension scheme until the current review by PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Government

Actuary’s Department is completed?


1075

The Minister: The hon. gentleman who has just resumed his seat is quite correct. We would

not make any decisions or we would not make any proposals, because whatever we do has to be

subject to the agreement of this Hon. Court. We will be informed by the next actuarial valuation,

which should be with us shortly, and that will give us a better indication.

But, as I did say in my original Answer, the position is clouded at the moment by the 1080

unprecedented event we have had, and that is quantitative easing, which has driven down interest

rates. What we will see, in terms of this valuation, will be a snapshot in time, but using various

assumptions. One of those assumptions will be the level of long-term interest rates. Once again,

that is predicated by the level of interest rates appertained to UK government gilts.

Pink Book

Projected income

10. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Whether the projected income from 2015 onward currently in the Pink Book will be achieved;

and what evidence he has to show any likely shortfall?

The President: Question 10, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran. 1085



1090


I should say at the outset that projections of income usually become less reliable the further

forward they are projected. This is because it becomes increasingly difficult to factor in all the

potential changes that might occur.

There is only one figure in the Pink Book after 2015, that being the Treasury income included 1095

for 2015-16, which we estimated at £560 million. Since my Budget in February, I have become

more concerned about achieving this figure than I was at that time.

Growth projections for the UK have been lowered by the IMF and OECD for 2013-14 and this,

coupled with the range of international challenges we have been facing recently, means that we

will probably need to be more cautious in producing our next set of financial forecasts. 1100

I cannot give definitive figures at this time, but can reassure Hon. Members that Council are

working actively, primarily in the Department of Economic Development, to grow the economy.

Economic growth leads to revenue income, which will contribute to achieving our financial

targets, despite the worsening growth position outside the Isle of Man.

1105

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Karran…


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COMMUNITY, CULTURE AND LEISURE

Bus timetables

Passenger survey

11. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask Minister for Community, Culture

and Leisure:

If his Department will undertake a passenger survey to assess whether the current new bus

timetables are adequate and meeting customer needs?

The President: We move to Question 11. The Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr

Henderson.



The President: Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to reply.

The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Madam 1115

President.

My Department studies passenger flows in some great detail before making changes.

Whilst I am aware that the Hon. Member was very concerned about the bus network review in

2010, it has been the base for a 4% passenger growth and a considerable reduction in cost, with 20

buses and 18 driving posts being saved. The usage of buses is continually monitored and will be 1120

used as a basis when any necessary further economies are introduced.

A passenger survey undertaken earlier this year through Treasury’s Economic Affairs Division

showed that 97% of passengers were satisfied with the overall service. The Hon. Member will

appreciate that it is important to measure actual patterns of travel by passengers and their views on

the service, rather than asking the public as a whole what bus journeys they might theoretically 1125

wish to make.

I hope that the Hon. Member will support my motion later today so that we can obtain a

ticketing system that will provide us with the full passenger information that we need to better

assess and answer concerns such as this.

1130


The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson.


Could I ask the Shirveishagh just to answer the Question on the Question Paper, please, and

would he confirm that I am asking about passengers and not a general public survey? It is very

clear what I am asking for.

Would he confirm for everybody, Eaghtyrane, that in fact there is not 97% satisfaction;

otherwise, how come I have been delivering him with a continuous stream of complaints over the 1140

last couple of months, and a load more are coming in today with the highlight of this issue?

Would he also consider the removal of his Director of Transport, as the whole thing has turned

into a laughing stock?


The Minister: Thank you, Madam President.

A survey costs a considerable amount of money.

I am very much aware of the Hon. Member for Douglas North saying that he has brought some

complaints to us, but he must consider that the number of complaints is minimal that he has 1150

brought through. It may be from a small number of people repeating their concerns, but as a

percentage it is not very high.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Houghton.

1155


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1572 T130

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President.

Madam President, the Minister brought these new bus routes in just before TT practice week,

at a time when he knew the bus drivers were about to go on strike, and therefore yet another

temporary bus route would have to be brought in. Can he explain why he did that?

Also, in his explanation can he explain why he did it without consultation and left it so long to 1160

bring such a poor route throughout the whole of the Island into being without further consultation

– and the consultation should have been meaningful consultation, as my hon. colleague has

already mentioned, Madam President.

The President: Straying a little from the original. Minister. 1165


I am fully aware that the Hon. Members for North Douglas are really concerned regarding the

Willaston loop route. (Interjection by Mr Henderson)

What we have, Madam President, are severe budgetary cuts on the Department – over 14% 1170

over the last number of years, 10% reaching the next few years. This will have a reduction of

services. It is unavoidable that when your budgets are cut there will be services that will be

withdrawn.

There are many places that are pleased with the service they have been provided. Some of

these services may not be a taxi service, as some people would wish, but this is trying to provide 1175

an economic service to the public.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President. 1180

What passenger survey or other consultation was taken into account before the number 9 bus

service to Ballabrooie and beyond in West Douglas was reduced and diverted? This is not just a

North Douglas issue: my hon. colleague for West Douglas and myself have actually received a

great number of enquiries from our constituents.

If, as the Minister says, the Department is not able to run in the future any bus service in 1185

Ballabrooie, West Douglas, Tromode, what alternative is Government considering so that many

people are not left isolated even in our capital city?

The President: Minister to reply.

1190

The Minister: Madam President, there is a service to Ballabrooie and I cannot understand why

the Member is saying there is not a service. It may not be a direct service.

I wonder when was the last time the Member actually went on the bus and how many of those

passengers were actually paying. That is one of the reasons why we want to bring in a ticketing

system, so that we can actually address the number of people who are avoiding paying. 1195

The President: Supplementary, Mr Cannan.

Mr Cannan: Thank you.

Will the Minister also accept that it is not just the towns that are being affected, but also the 1200

country routes that have been affected by the changes; and that it has caused some disquiet,

particularly for residents in Kirk Michael, who now have to travel quite often via Jurby in order

just to get the very simple route to Ramsey? Indeed, the bus frequency has reduced.

Does he not therefore agree that, first of all, a passenger survey would in fact be of benefit; and

secondly, if we are getting to a stage with the buses where we just cannot simply provide any sort 1205

of reasonable service at all, isn’t it time now to look at alternative means of service delivery?

When is he going to come forward with some proper proposals in that respect?


1210


The Minister: Madam President, like I said earlier, hopefully Members will be supporting the

bus ticketing this afternoon, because hopefully we will have some meaningful information about

what journeys passengers are taking. 1215


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1573 T130

We are fully aware that on some occasions… I can remember a number of years ago that one

bus service was removed – it had never actually been used, and the people who complained

actually said, ‘Well, I would use it if my car broke down.’

We really do have to put services on that people are going to use and, with the reduction in our

budget, that it is there for the people we can actually serve. 1220

The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson.


Will the Minister agree that the best way to achieve the aims and objectives he is talking about 1225

for a national service – because we are not just talking about Governor’s Hill and Willaston here;

my Question is Islandwide and so is my mailbox this morning, Eaghtyrane – is to ask the

passengers? Not through a £½ million ticketing system: ask them through fliers given out on the

bus and he will get the feedback he needs to work out a decent service.

Further, Eaghtyrane, will he agree that it is now time to remove his Director of Transport? 1230



I am sorry, but this seems to come down to the Willaston loop route and North Douglas for the 1235

Hon. Members.

We did undertake, for the Members, a survey of their route, and despite a four-week, 12-hours-

a-day survey… their lobbying, I instructed my officers to come to a compromise, and this is a one-

hour bus service through the estate and one hour back bus, terminating there. This was

implemented in May this year. This is after the lobbying of the Members for this service. 1240

We are having to come to this time where we cannot afford to put services on for when people

want a taxi. We have to be putting it on for the main routes. It may be that the bus will be taking a

longer route, but it will be providing that service to more people, and it is coming to that

position… (Interjection by Mr Henderson)

To get the passenger survey, we have to look at what journeys are actually taken. We need 1245

proper information. It is not just a case of going on a bus, Hon. Member, and saying, ‘Where

would you like to go to?’ We need to find out where people are travelling to, and that is why we

need the further information – and if we are to do a survey, we will need to have proper

information to make that decision on.

1250


The President: Hon. Members, this is turning into a debate, so the final supplementary

question will be from Mr Ronan.

1255


Given the optimistic forecast by the Minister on the bus service, has he considered, in line with

the Scope of Government Report, either privatising or corporatising the bus service?


The Minister: Madam President, I think this is outside the Question, (Mr Corkish: Hear,

hear.) but privatisation – you would probably get one of the large companies from the UK, who

would require a large subsidy, to run that service. (Interjection by Mr Corkish) We would then be

sending all that money to a UK operator – and I thought we were trying to circulate the money 1265

within the Isle of Man. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Surely the best thing that we can do is try and

make the efficiencies on the Isle of Man so that money circulates here.

We may need to have a look at corporatisation, but privatisation I do not think will fit within it,

and as the Member is on the group looking at across transforming government, maybe it is one of

his own personal areas. 1270

May I say the people of the south have been quite pleased with the bus service because it

actually takes them up to the Hospital, where most other places do already.


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ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT

Sulby Bridge car crash

Details re drivers and vehicles involved

12. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Minister for Economic

Development:

In relation to the car crash at Sulby Bridge when the roads were closed for TT motorcycle

racing why a number of motor vehicles were racing along the circuit; whether the vehicles had

rally type roll cages; what high performance car racing experience each driver had; and

whether each driver was insured for racing on the TT circuit?

The President: Question 12, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.

Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President. 1275


The President: Minister for Economic Development to reply.

The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President. 1280

The Hon. Member for North Douglas refers to the incident involving a Subaru demonstration

vehicle at Sulby Bridge on Wednesday, 5th July.

To clarify the position, no cars were racing on the TT course. Cars that are allowed on the

course are official course inspection vehicles and, in this instance, demonstration Subaru vehicles

driven by drivers supplied by Subaru as part of their sponsorship package. I repeat that no cars 1285

were permitted to race on the TT course during TT 2013.

Moving on to the second part of the Question, official course cars and demonstration vehicles

are not equipped as rally cars and do not therefore have roll cages fitted.

The third part of the Question concerns drivers of official course cars. These drivers are

appointed by the Auto-Cycle Union, known as the ACU, on the basis that they have the necessary 1290

experience and driving qualifications to carry out such a function. As a minimum, all drivers must

have an Institute of Advanced Motorists qualification and have a good knowledge of the TT

mountain course. The journalist driving the vehicle involved in the incident at Sulby had United

States equivalent qualifications and car-racing experience, but was not familiar with the TT

course. 1295

The incident has already been reviewed by both the ACU Clerk of the Course and my

Department’s motorsport team. As a result of this review, in future, all drivers will be required to

have knowledge of the TT course before they drive on closed roads. Drivers will continue to be

subject to the approval of the ACU before being allowed on the course.

Turning to the final part of the Question, relating to insurance cover, driving, which is not 1300

racing, takes place on closed roads and is covered by the ACU’s insurance. In addition, as the car

that was involved in the Sulby Bridge incident was a Subaru demonstration vehicle incorporated

into an official VIP course lap, this was separately covered by insurance provided by the sponsor.

No vehicle is allowed on the course without appropriate insurance cover.

Thank you. 1305

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Houghton.


Would the Minister explain, then, why did this American driver take the wheel when the 1310

drivers were changed at Ballaugh, and why he was travelling at 60 mph when he crashed? Can he

explain that?


1315

The Minister: No, Madam President, I cannot. The ACU are very involved in this. My

motorsport team have looked into the incident.

Certainly we have made no secret of the fact that we are attempting to realise revenue from the

TT – the expenditure of the Manx taxpayer… diversity into these sorts of areas, and they have

been very, very successful, both economically and as a spectator issue. 1320


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1575 T130

I regret that the Hon. Member is putting a spotlight on this, because what inevitably starts

happening is we will prevent people going out and doing things, which… unfortunately, in this

case somebody made a mistake. It has been rectified.

In future, there will be a greater knowledge of the course, but we should not throw out the baby

just because of one incident. 1325


The President: A supplementary, Mr Singer.

1330

Mr Singer: Thank you.

If I could ask the Minister just for some information. On these VIP course laps, who are

usually the passengers who are in the cars? Are they personally paying cash to Subaru? Does the

Department, in fact, receive any income from these laps? 1335

The President: You may not have that information, Minister.

The Minister: Madam President, the whole purpose of this is to gain money – revenue for the

Department and therefore for the Island.

The VIP packages, which have now been so successful, are booked out for long periods in 1340

advance, for both the commercial benefits for businesses on the Isle of Man to attract some of their

VIP guests from global areas around the world to come to our Island and potentially have the

opportunity of investing, but also the sponsors, Subaru, contribute a significant amount to the

enhancement and benefit financially and as a package of the TT.

So this is something which was regrettable. We do not make light of any accident or incident 1345

that takes place, but please be reassured that this is under the auspices of covered insurance, ACU

approval, and my Department getting economic benefit.


1350

The President: A supplementary, Mr Houghton.


In relation to this one incident, as the Minister says, will he accept that there were many near

misses by a number of these vehicles racing round the course? A number of complaints have been 1355

fielded about this and the Clerk of the Course was so uneasy that he wished it to be ceased after

the crash on the Wednesday, but was overruled when the same vehicle – or another vehicle of

similar stature – went out on the Friday, overruling the Clerk of the Course, who was concerned. Is

the Minister aware of that?

If he is not aware of it, would he assure this Court he will look into it and find out exactly what 1360

was going on, because those cars were being raced and many people who were being driven, their

observations were that they were being driven by idiots.


1365

The Minister: I am not aware of the allegations being made by the Hon. Member, but I assure

him we will look at Hansard. We will take it up with all of those parties involved.

As I did state before, inevitably a handful of people who complain… quite often will then

make a decision that it is no longer acceptable. So if that is the outcome of this, I hope the Hon.

Member will realise that we put safety first, and even if that is a significant cost to my 1370

Department. Because a handful of people have complained, allegedly, to the Hon. Member, I will

make investigations and my Department will come to him to make sure that we have got some

names of the people who made the complaints, because anonymous complaints on something like

this could cost the Isle of Man ten of thousands of pounds and also the bad publicity that goes with

it. 1375

So, quite often, we have a responsibility to make sure about the accuracy of those people who

chose to complain – that it is valid. I am sure the Hon. Member would not bring anything to this

Court if it was not; therefore, we will question him and pursue to find out exactly how, in his

words, the Clerk of the course was overruled. I think that is a serious allegation that needs to be

investigated. 1380

Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.


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1576 T130

Unemployment

Joint assessment with DSC

13. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Economic

Development:

Whether his Department will conduct a joint assessment with the Department of Social Care in

relation to the long-term unemployed, young unemployed, and those requiring work-based

experience to determine why suitable applicants for work are being continually rejected; what

help could be given to those people; and to better understand what is going wrong within the

employment pool and what it is employers are looking for in employees?

The President: Question 13, the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson.



The President: The Minister for Economic Development to reply.

The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Madam President, I make no 1390

apologies, despite how long we are taking to go through Question Time, to actually have a

reasonably lengthy Answer to this, because I think it is, for the vulnerable people in our

community, one of the most important Questions.

Therefore, in thanking the Hon. Member, it gives me an opportunity to update all Members of

the Court on areas of work which are underway and planned in relation to assisting those who are 1395

currently unemployed.

Firstly, there is already close collaboration between the Departments of Social Care and my

Department, particularly in relation to our aim of reducing long-term unemployment. We have set

a challenging objective to reduce by half the numbers of people who remain unemployed for over

12 months, and the Minister for Social Care will respond further on this in his Answer to Question 1400

30.

In light of the rise in long-term unemployment, my Department has already dedicated specific

staffing resource to the initiative which is enabling individual appointments to be provided and

personalised action plans to be agreed. Where an individual lacks certain skills or experience,

additional training and work placement opportunities are being provided to address these vital 1405

gaps which can often be a significant barrier in re-entering the employment market.

Members will appreciate that this represents a significant investment in time and is being

facilitated in a period when unemployment is markedly higher than it has been for many years, and

the pressure already on services provided by my Department’s Employment and Skills Group,

which includes the Job Centre, are considerable. 1410

We are in the final stages of developing a public-private partnership approach to providing

additional services to those persons who find themselves out of work for an extended period. This

will enable us to increase the range of employment support services and provide the much needed

coaching and mentoring needed to both obtain and sustain paid employment.

I assure the Hon. Court that this same priority continues to be afforded in the area of youth 1415

employment. The issue of young people not in education, employment or training remains of

critical importance, not only to my Department but to Government as a whole.

Members will recall that within the Agenda for Change document, received by this Court in

January, Government committed to helping more young people find employment and to provide

more opportunities for applied and vocational learning. Successful initiatives are already in place 1420

with regard to training and work placement opportunities and my Department is working directly

with private sector organisations to facilitate academy-style training programmes which

potentially lead directly to employment for those young people who embrace the opportunity.

Furthermore, where areas of growth are identified within the economy, we are working with

our partners in Government, such as the Department of Education and Children, to meet the needs 1425

of local business. As an example, I would cite the 50% increase in engineering training places

which will be available from this September and the detailed plans in development at the moment

to increase places by a further 100% from September 2014 – effectively trebling the number of

training opportunities in precision engineering within two years.

It is clearly difficult for me to comment in relation to why certain applicants may be turned 1430

down for some vacancies and I do not think it is possible to suggest there is in some way


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1577 T130

something going wrong within the employment pool. My Department’s view is that we are

currently experiencing a more competitive labour market than has been the case for many years

and demand for jobs is outstripping supply.

My advice for those who find themselves turned down for job opportunities would be to 1435

always seek feedback from the employer as to why they were unsuccessful, to learn from their

experience and, if areas of improvement are apparent, to work in conjunction with my officers

within the Employment and Skills team to address those aspects which needed to be improved.

I do, however, receive occasional feedback from employers who still find it difficult to recruit

workers, even for roles where there is not necessarily a requirement for extensive qualifications or 1440

experience. This includes areas such as retail, hospitality and general service industries.

Madam President, there should be no reason for those currently out of work not to actively

seek employment in these sectors and there is a responsibility on the wider community, be they

parents, teachers or friends, to recognise that there is dignity in work and to provide

encouragement to gain employment, skills and experience which will benefit future careers. 1445

Madam President, there are training opportunities available to fill skills gaps. As a result of

close working with employers, there are work placement options in a variety of economic sectors.

There is still a reasonable level of vacancies at the Job Centre each month and I would encourage

anyone who feels they need further assistance to make contact with my team, via the Job Centre in

the first instance. 1450

After a lengthy Answer, Madam President, I must assure Hon. Members this is a key priority

of my Department and I am confident that those seeking advice, guidance and support will be

afforded every opportunity to receive it.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Henderson. 1455


I thank the Shirveishagh for his strong, positive and detailed reply to this important issue.

I would just like to ask him if he could reconfirm this new initiative that he mentions,

especially with regard to the joint working between himself and the private sector to examine areas 1460

where there may be pockets of unemployed folk who are actively trying, re-trying and re-retrying

with job applications, and for young folk who are trying for job experience who are consistently

and persistently unsuccessful, through no apparent fault of their own, to see if there is anything

further that between his Department and the employers we can do which would help to maximise

the employment opportunities? 1465

Although I acknowledge it is an expensive initiative, would the Shirveishagh agree that to get

somebody out of the unemployment pool obviously then would be cheaper for Government via no

benefits and tax payments via wages?


The Minister: Thank you, I do not want to cut across too much of the toes of the Minister for

Social Care, who will answer some of these if we have time this morning. However, I do take

notice of the Hon. Member’s continuing interest in this and I think it is shared by everybody in the

Court. 1475

I would put on record my appreciation to those companies – some of them deserve recognition

by name – who have really embraced the opportunity to work with my Department, and I can tell

people that currently we have 55 clients out on work placements when the target was 25. We have

had over 200 placements, with approximately 52% of those placements resulting in permanent

employment on or just after completion. A further 8% returned to education and further training, 1480

which takes up the Hon. Member’s point.

So my thanks to Zürich, Friends Provident International, particularly Lloyd’s Bank – who have

offered six young people direct employment from their work that they were doing with us; 10

young people are currently on an academy training programme with Lloyd’s Bank – and indeed

Sleepwell Hotel Academy gave provision for 15 long-term unemployed persons on a four-week 1485

intensive course, and there are further pilot programmes completed and planned for later in this

financial year. So my appreciation to all of those.

We are working and getting the support of local businesses, but the real problem is that a

number of those who are struggling to find work need to get skills improved, and at times it is

difficult to make them come and get that increased skill work. We will do what we can and there is 1490

a responsibility on families, friends and individuals to support them to come and meet us half way.


_________________________________________________________________

1578 T130


Mrs Beecroft: Thank you, Madam President. 1495

I do not know if the Minister is actually already doing that, but maybe he could confirm – or, if

not, if he could consider – that his team in the Job Centre could possibly work alongside schools

and other organisations to assist our young people in actually how to approach potential

employers: what you say when they phone up; what you put in your CV, or obviously, if they are

straight from school, it is what you put in your letter. Because, would he acknowledge, sometimes 1500

they do not have the support of family and friends to help them do this and they are trying on their

own, and they do not always come over as well in that initial first impression as they could do with

a bit more assistance? I think a lot of young people really just need more guidance.

Would the Minister look at developing something like this to help them within the schools or

other youth club organisations, or whatever, so we can reach out to them? 1505



As a former teacher, I am well aware of the issues involved in some young people who do not 1510

have the skills or graces at the time of possibly leaving school, and they do need that added

support. Schools are tremendous at identifying and assisting in that process and indeed by far the

vast majority of our young people are now staying on in education or training beyond the age of

16, which I think is a real benefit.

I was fortunate yesterday to be addressing over 100 members of staff of the Isle of Man 1515

College, where many of these young people go to to get some of the skills, to work with them and

the Department of Education and Children in order to try and do exactly what the Hon. Member is

talking about.

The training – whether it be an apprenticeship, engineering degree, or indeed just social skills

training – is an important part of what goes on in schools and the College. Certainly all the factors 1520

the Hon. Member mentions are ones which I have taken up personally with the head teachers of

secondary schools and the Principal of the College, and we continue to have the three Departments

involved working very closely for the benefits that would be of benefit not just to the people and

the economy of the Isle of Man but very much to the individuals themselves, who quite often can

have unfulfilling and indeed wasted lives if we do not get them into the workplace. 1525

Sefton Group

Payment of creditors; Palace Hotel refurbishment costs

14. The Hon. Member for Michael (Mr Cannan) to ask the Minister for Economic Development:

In respect of the Sefton loans –

(a) whether all creditors have now been paid; and

(b) how much is being spent on the refurbishment at the Palace Hotel?

The President: Question 14, the Hon. Member for Michael, Mr Cannan.



1530

The President: The Minister for Economic Development to reply.

The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Madam President, my

Department has received confirmation from Treasury that the Sefton Group is up to date with its

statutory payments. I have asked the Sefton Group for an update on non-governmental creditors 1535

and the Department has been informed that creditors’ balances have been reducing since the

financial restructure took place.

Hon. Members should be aware that this information has been provided by the Sefton

Group plc and has not been verified by my officers, as it would not have been possible to do so in

the timescale involved. 1540


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1579 T130

The balance on the Government loan provided to the Group in April 2012, due to be paid by

31st July 2013… and I can confirm to Members that the balance has been reducing as agreed and

now stands at £52,000.

Turning to the second part of the Question, I understand from information supplied by the

Sefton Group that they are planning significant investment in upgraded services and facilities. As a 1545

result of reducing the debt by £72 million over the last three years, the Group is now in a position

to invest over £1 million in capital expenditure during 2013-14. The majority of this will be spent

at the Palace Hotel, with the first project being a refit of the former Colours bar and night club.

Work on the new club, which I believe is to be called Mahiko, is already underway with an

opening timeframe of late July or early August. 1550

The President: A supplementary, Mr Cannan.


I have to say that the Minister’s Answer, in terms of the creditors, does not fill me with a lot of 1555

confidence where he says that it simply reduced. I would have thought that it would have been of

primary importance to Government to have made sure that, when lending this money to the Sefton,

those creditors were actually paid immediately and those accounts were brought up to date.

And secondly, just on the –

1560

The President: Could we come to a question, sir?

Mr Cannan: Yes. Just to clarify on his Answer there, my understanding, and I think the

Court’s understanding, was that a certain proportion of the loan money was to be spent on

refurbishment. Is that actually the case? 1565


The Minister: I am aware that the Hon. Member for Michael has no confidence in the issues

and the answers given; therefore, I am not surprised by that. 1570

When I answered the Question, I referred to… they being reduced, and he wants them to be up

to date. Ongoing commercial businesses have ongoing contracts with many suppliers, and that is

what the current situation is. If the Hon. Member has constituents involved who have concerns

about this, then I would ask him to draw that to my attention, but I would certainly consider that

those parties would have had a far greater problem had there not been a restructuring of this 1575

organisation.

With regard to the work and the refurbishment, I did answer that level. I am sure the Hon.

Member is once again alluding to the fact that we would not be investing grants for night club

facilities. We have done a restructuring package with the Sefton Group. They are utilising some of

that money in a variety of ways. 1580

I would draw attention to my comment, which said ‘as a result of reducing the debt by

£72 million over the last three years’, and should give individuals the understanding of just how

serious this business was and the problems it has overcome itself and finally with a support

package by Government, as well as other parties, to try and keep it going. Therefore, this is a

complex area, which I am aware is being investigated, and there will be further discussions with 1585

the Committee investigating that by both the Sefton Group and myself and other political

Members in the near future.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Cannan.

1590


Can I just confirm with the Minister for Economic Development, was it not the case that we

were told specifically that there was, I think, £1.7 million-worth of debt to external creditors, and

that if these creditors were not serviced, then there was a possibility the economy would go into a

tailspin? And therefore, why is it that he cannot confirm today that creditors have not been brought 1595

up to date?


The Minister: There were many things said about this for a number of periods of time in 1600

answer to many questions by certain Hon. Members. I am not sure of the allegation that he is


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1580 T130

making there about what specifically he was told. If he can refer to it, as to whether I said that, or

another politician, or indeed somebody who was interviewed on the radio… Therefore, I am not

familiar with that, and all I can say is that the restructuring package, which was done in good faith,

is clearly on public record – the acquisition of the land and then a loan of £1.3 million, which was 1605

done in order to actually facilitate the ongoing viability of the business – and the Committee will

now investigate whether that was a decision that was taken with the correct powers for myself and

others to be a party to.

The President: A supplementary, Mrs Beecroft. 1610


If I could ask a couple of supplementaries at the same time, I would be grateful.

Firstly, with regard to the creditors, with hindsight, would the Minister not agree that it should

have been part of the loan, rather than it just being unsecured? It should have been a term and 1615

condition of that loan, so that Government could actually verify as to whether the overdue

creditors had been brought up to date. I think we all acknowledge that there are ongoing creditors

that are not due; it is the overdue ones at that point that were the concern.

Could the Minister confirm, when he says that the statutory obligations are fulfilled, does he

mean that it is actually all up to date, or is there still an amount owing and that sort of deal has 1620

been done to allow them more time to pay? That certainly was the situation during the original

debate when they were given until the end of June to rectify their affairs. So have their affairs been

completely rectified in respect of their statutory obligations?

And just a follow-up supplementary to that supplementary (Interjection by the President) – it is

broadening it out slightly – could the Minister explain how now he can say the statutory 1625

obligations are up to date, whereas previously he was not able to get that information because of

data protection?


1630

The Minister: I do enjoy the Hon. Member for South Douglas and her positive attitude

towards all of these issues.

If I can attempt to try and do what she has been after for a long time… is reassure her that the

Committee will look into this to try and find out exactly… because there is so much information

now that is in the public domain, and it is almost a case of if you say something often enough it 1635

becomes true.

The issue for the creditors I have outlined… has responded by the Sefton Group that the non-

governmental creditors have been reducing since the financial restructure has taken place. I have

not had any approach by any business on the Isle of Man that is owed money from the Sefton that

has got an ongoing problem. 1640

In view of the publicity given by the two Members asking Questions again today, I would have

expected that, if they had concerns, that they were worried about getting payments, that would

have come to my Department. It has not. Therefore, it is obviously going to the Hon. Members

who have got a previously stated position of hostility to this arrangement.

With regard to the statutory obligations, the one that affects my Department the most is the 1645

loan of the £450,000, and we have an agreement with them that that will be paid by 31st July

2013, and I can confirm that that has been reducing as per the agreement and now stands at the

figure of £52,000, which is within my gift to give because that is in my Department as a loan made

by my Department.

My beginning of the Answer to the Question… my Department has received confirmation 1650

from Treasury that the Sefton Group is up to date with its statutory payments. That is the only

thing the Treasury is empowered to be able to give to me, and therefore that is the only thing I am

able to communicate. Therefore, neither then nor now was I able to give any further details

regarding it.

Whether there will be due fees later on during the years, I am sure there will be, but that is the 1655

nature of ongoing business, as it is indeed with creditors. Therefore, the Hon. Members are looking

for a problem. I do not see which area they are actually concerned the most about, but we do have

a situation where agreements are often made with businesses, and indeed individuals, to make

settlements for debts that are outstanding. That is what was happening with my Department, and

all of those agreements appear to be working successfully – sometimes you might think that is a 1660

success.


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1581 T130

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Quirk.


I hope the Minister does not think I am the three; but never mind, we will have a go.

Regarding this spend that was made at the Palace Group and your answers to that particular

issue, is he aware of the contractor that actually did the work? Is that contractor up to date with

Government’s obligations? Also, was the spending that was used with taxpayers’ money sourced

from the Island? 1670


The Minister: As ever, Madam President, I have no idea about answering the Hon. Member’s

question. (Laughter and interjections) 1675

He would imply that the Sefton Group, or what he calls the Palace Group, took on a contractor

to do work, as per an explanation I have given in my Answer, and I assume that there was some

issue about whether they had legitimate Work Permits or contracts. If he wants to make it clear, he

can do, but that seldom occurs in my experience.

EDUCATION AND CHILDREN

Nursery education

Future provision

15. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Ronan) to ask the Minister for Education and Children:

If he will make a statement on the proposed future provision for nursery education since the

closure of the state-run nurseries in 2012?

The President: Question 15. The Hon. Member for Castletown, Mr Ronan. 1680



The President: The Minister for Education and Children to reply. 1685

The Minister for Education and Children (Mr Crookall): Thank you, Madam President.

I am grateful to the Hon. Member for his Question, as it allows me to update this Hon. Court

on the changes my Department made to its preschool provision at the start of the current academic

year. 1690

As you will remember, my Department ceased being a direct provider of preschool provision

almost a year ago. This was partly in response to the economic situation, but also because we were

only able to provide a service for about 43% of the children in their preschool year.

Rather than cease to support preschool education entirely, my Department introduced a credit

scheme to provide financial support to all families. The latest data I have indicates that 664 1695

families have access to the £350 credit, and an additional 229 families have qualified for the

£1,150. These current statistics indicate that 88% of next year’s reception children have benefited

from preschool care and education support by the public purse.

We have offered and will continue to offer the old preschool facilities within our schools to the

private and third sectors on flexible leases. In the current year, all but one of those facilities have 1700

been let for this purpose. The one which has not been let is the one at Manor Park School. A

private provider already has a base in the area and there was no demand for this facility.

We made the changes in a bid to encourage private providers to expand their facilities and, in

some cases, open up new ones. That has certainly been the case in the south, where it appears that

the expansion of private provision may remove the need to lease out the facility at Victoria Road 1705

School. A brand new facility has opened this year in the market place and there is a large nursery

close to the Castle Rushen High School.


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1582 T130

The preschool providers based at Victoria Road have indicated they do not wish to continue

beyond this year. In part, this is in response to competition: there are a number of other providers

in Castletown who offer different provision. Also, there has been a rapid increase in pupil numbers 1710

at Victoria Road School in the last couple of years. This is an opportunity to provide additional

space for reception groups within the school. It is expected that, in September, Victoria Road

School will have well over 50 reception children, an almost 100% increase on two years ago. The

Department will therefore not be offering this space for lease for preschool provision.

The movement of provision into the private sector is entirely consistent with the Government’s 1715

aim at reducing, where possible, the direct delivery of services where they can be provided as

effectively through other means.


The President: Supplementary question, Mr Ronan. 1720


I am disappointed with the Minister – I will get to a question in a minute, Madam President –

regarding the provision at Victoria Road School. This was a commitment by the Department of

Education. Would the Minister confirm that… Okay, the reception class at Victoria Road School 1725

has substantially increased – I should know; my own son is in it at the moment – but should he and

his Department not have factored this in beforehand, because surely he would have had the

information of the children who were coming to the school years in advance?



I understand the Hon. Member who has just resumed his seat… his views on this, but the

preschool providers based at Victoria Road have indicated they do not wish to continue beyond

this year. In part, this is in response to competition… Sorry, I am reading out the wrong one there. 1735

When the extension to Victoria Road School was presented to this Court, it was stated at the

time that the plans were to encompass the potential to extend reception provision, albeit the room

was labelled for preschool at the time, Madam President. So it was explained to Hon. Members

that that was going to be preschool for as long as it was needed, and if not, it would come back

into the school’s use, Madam President. 1740

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.


Also, thank you, Minister, for your replies to date. 1745

At the June sitting of this Hon. Court, Minister, you kindly reassured me that you would be

bringing forward a scheme for the new primary school at the old Noble’s site. Is that being

designed to include accommodation in which preschool education could take place if there was a

policy, or even on this flexible basis that you describe in respect of Victoria Road School?

If not, please could you reconsider, and please could you engage the community that needs that 1750

preschool provision in that part of town in the Department’s design and decision process?


The Minister: Thank you, Madam President. 1755

I am more than happy to talk to the Hon. Member with regard to this. It is the first I have

certainly heard of it, and I am led to believe there is provision in the area already, Madam

President, that copes with the need that is there – but if he knows different, I am happy to talk to

the Hon. Member.

1760

The President: Supplementary, the Lord Bishop.

The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Madam President.

Returning to the broader principle of the Question, does the Minister agree that, for many

young people, nursery education is every bit as important as education in the mid-teens? 1765



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1770

The Minister: Madam President, I certainly do.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Ronan.

Mr Ronan: Thank you, Madam President. 1775

Would the Minister not agree with me that removing the fragmented state-run nurseries from

our schools was contentious and very unpopular?

Would he also agree that this Hon. Court accepted that the nursery provision would be looked

into by a Council of Ministers working group?

Would the Minister be able to tell the people of the Isle of Man where this is up to and what 1780

findings to date they have come up with?



As I stated in my original Answer, Madam President, we now have 88% of next year’s intake

accessing preschool, whereas before it was 43%; so it has to go down as a great success.

I know there was a big hoo-ha, as he puts it, over the original decision to take it out of

Government’s hands and put it into the private sector, but I think it has been said this year that it

has worked, albeit the Victoria Road school will not be carrying that out next year. 1790

Regarding the Committee that was set up at the time from the Council of Ministers, it was the

Minister at the time for Education, Mr Karran, Mr Robertshaw and I think it was Mr Gawne was

the other Member. Obviously, Mr Karran is no longer Minister for Education and cannot do that,

but in the meantime my Department continues to work with DSC and will continue to do so into

the future. 1795

Thank you.


Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Shirveishagh son Ynsee, the Minister for Education, just 1800

assure us that we can ring-fence the financial credit scheme that we have as far as any future

expenditure of his Department is concerned?

Would he also agree that I am thankful that he has told of the increase of accessibility, as far as

preschool nursery education is concerned, by the project, but would he not agree that it is

important that we need to keep that credit, which was a good initiative actually from the Chief 1805

Minister at the time, to try and ease the political problems there were as far as bringing in this

policy, allowing for the hard decisions that have to be made in hard economic times?


1810


I thank the Hon. Member for his support. I think there was support there and I thank him for

that.

The Department will continue to support the preschool facilities and work with DSC to make

sure that those regulations and the facilities that are provided are the correct ones, Madam 1815

President.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Thomas.


I think the details of the cost of the actual preschool credit scheme, the payments themselves,

are in the public domain, and you gave more figures today. Can you also undertake to find out the

costs of management and administration, monitoring and quality assurance that the Department of

Social Care… and in the Customer First Centre in the DCCL, so that as we reconsider this policy,

despite all of our… so we have all the facts about the costs as we make a decision about preschool 1825

education going forward?



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As much as I would like to give those, they are not my Department’s figures. I think you ought

to be asking DSC for those, and I do not really want to pass it on to DSC, but I do not have those

figures.

The President: A final supplementary, Mr Speaker. 1835

The Speaker: Madam President, can the Minister indicate whether the figure of access to

preschool nursery provision of over 80% that he referred to, compared with 43%, represents a full

school term week, or could he give a breakdown? Does this represent one morning a week or does

it represent whatever the voucher scheme – 2½ hours per week – will actually provide? Are we 1840

comparing like with like?




I am happy to answer Mr Speaker’s question, and that is across the board, it is people who

have accessed it maybe just once a week, or some have gone for the whole week – say five

sessions a week, Madam President. 1850

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

Bathing Water Directive standards

Island testing

16. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and

Agriculture:

How many Isle of Man locations have been tested to 2006/7/EC Bathing Water Directive

standards; and how many of these locations failed to achieve the minimum standard?



The President: The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to reply. 1855

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu,

Eaghtyrane.

All of the monitored beaches, numbering 19 in total, have been tested to the 2006/07/EC

standards. There is no minimum standard as such. 1860

There are four categories of compliance detailed in the revised Bathing Water Directive

2006/7/EC. Based on 2012 data of the 19 waters sampled, none would rate excellent, two would

rate good, six would rate sufficient, and 11 would rate as poor.

The Directive states that if bathing waters are rated as poor for five consecutive years, a

permanent bathing prohibition or permanent advice against bathing should be introduced. There is 1865

a possibility that if present results continue, such a situation will arise at Douglas Central, Douglas

Broadway, Port Grenaugh, Bay-ny-Carrickey and Port St Mary by 2017.

The President: Supplementary question.

1870

Mr Karran: Would the Shirveishagh circulate to Hon. Members the actual… which beaches

have the capacity as far as the standards are concerned? And allowing for the fact that we have

spent something in the region of about £140 million, and one of the backbone decisions as far as

IRIS was concerned, that we would actually achieve blue flag status on our beaches was part of

the sales pitch, as far as that is concerned, and allowing for the fact that we are more likely to 1875

spend tens of millions on professional fees, does he feel that we should be trying to get to the best


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standards as far as beaches are concerned, and will he actually circulate for public information

what he has got, as far as the different beaches are concerned?


The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

Certainly, I would be more than happy to circulate that if it is not already published, but I am

fairly sure that all this information is published on an annual basis. So in the interests of saving the

planet, I do not want to start publishing documents that are already published and already 1885

available. I am absolutely… well, I am not absolutely sure and I will check, but I am fairly

confident that this information is already in the public domain. If it is not, I will be more than

happy to circulate it, but I would rather not circulate stuff that is already publicly available.

And yes, as far as the standards for beaches, of course our aspiration should always be to reach

the highest possible standards. That said, we must recognise that in terms of the quality of the 1890

beaches, a lot of the concern is in relation to run-off from agricultural land, run-off from streets

and the like, and that is not necessarily a direct result of IRIS; that is a result of other factors.

The President: A supplementary question, Mr Quirk.

1895


I think the Minister has just pipped me to the post to say that the information is freely available

on the net and not all the failures are down to effluent. I am sure the Minister has already agreed

that.

1900

The President: There was no question.

The Hon. Member, Mr Downie.

Mr Downie: If I heard the Minister correctly, he indicated there were failures on Douglas

beach. Could the Minister confirm if there has been some dialogue with the Department of 1905

Infrastructure, so that as and when major works are being carried out on Douglas promenade there

can be investigations carried on to make sure that foul water from the sewerage system is not

getting into the storm water drains and finishing up on the beach?


The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

I would be amazed if such discussions have not taken place, and certainly I will check to make

sure that such discussions are taking place.

Clearly, we are all aware that further on on our agenda we will be looking at the beginnings of 1915

work in relation to Douglas Promenade, and I am absolutely sure that the Department of

Infrastructure, Water and Sewerage Authority, together with my Department, will be working to

ensure that the best possible standards are delivered.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Karran. 1920

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Shirveishagh not agree that, whilst the points of my hon.

colleague for Onchan are right about other issues put purely on sewerage, was it not a factor that

the whole idea of IRIS was that we would actually end up dealing with the amount of waste, and

we would sort out the cross contamination as far as the storm water system is concerned? Is that 1925

not a major factor as far as the fact that we are failing on this point?


The Minister: The Hon. Member for Onchan has the benefit of actually having been here 1930

possibly when IRIS was first discussed. Sadly, it is in the long-distant past, as far as I am

concerned. I was elected several years after the principles were agreed, and so his wisdom on this

topic is far better than mine. But I am quite sure that in relation to IRIS that yes, indeed, we would

be wanting to have a good system which separates storm water from foul water.

1935


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The President: A final supplementary, Mr Quirk.


Would the Minister not agree with me – and I am probably more technically minded than him,

but I am sure he will – that in the east, especially in the Onchan area, the sewer and the storm 1940

water is separated? I am sure he will agree with that – that is a fact. In Douglas, the majority of the

storm and sewer are separated, and there will be occasions when there will be a cross

contamination, but it will be addressed.

Could I ask the Minister, then, if Mr Karran is so interested in this subject matter, maybe he

would want to visit the Water Authority, where we can give him some advice? 1945


Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

In all matters Onchan, I bow to the wisdom (Laughter) of the Hon. Member for Onchan. 1950

Effluent discharge

Peel Bay and Meary Veg

17. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and

Agriculture:

Why the consent levels for discharge of effluent into Peel Bay are the same as the consent

levels for effluent discharge from Meary Veg sewage treatment works, when Peel Bay is a

bathing area and Meary Veg discharges to non-bathing waters?



The President: The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to reply. 1955


Eaghtyrane.

The indicative discharge licence levels for both the existing discharge at Meary Veg and the

previously proposed discharge at the existing discharge location off Peel breakwater are identical 1960

in respect of the sanitary parameters of biochemical oxygen demand and suspended solids being

40 mg per litre and 60 mg per litre respectively.

These levels are industry standards which are not considered to be a significant issue in the

marine environment. However, as regards microbial parameters, the requirements at both of these

locations will be different due to their different proximities to bathing waters. 1965

Meary Veg is distant from bathing waters, therefore there is no requirement to impose a

microbiological standard. Peel breakwater is much closer to the bathing area, therefore a discharge

in that location may require disinfection in order to protect bathers. The Isle of Man Water and

Sewerage Authority are aware of this constraint.

I made it clear in my Answer to the same Hon. Member’s Keys Question on 11 June that the 1970

existing Peel breakwater outflow location would no longer appear to be an option for

consideration.

The President: A supplementary.

1975

Mr Karran: I thank the Shirveishagh for his reply.

Would the Shirveishagh not agree that the concern has to be the issue that we do not want to

end up putting all this great expense into this location and then find out later on that we have got to

change it all?

Would he not agree that there is definitely a difference as far as standards are concerned over 1980

bathing water, as far as the standards of the environment to the standards as far as marine water?


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1587 T130


The Minister: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 1985

Well, on the second point I think that is what I said, so I would agree with that.

In relation to vast sums of expenditure, quite clearly any expenditure that we undertake we

would want to ensure is the right expenditure, providing the right solution for the problem that we

face. So, quite clearly, we would not want to spend money and then find that we had spent it in the

wrong place. 1990

Procedural

The President: Hon. Members, before we move to the next Question, it has been drawn to my

attention that background conversations can be and are being picked up by the radio. If you would

just give the floor to those who are answering questions, that will not happen.

Effluent discharge

Peel Bay

18. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister of Environment, Food and

Agriculture:

Why his departmental officers are considering sewage effluent discharge into Peel Bay in

contravention of blue flag criterion 9 and criterion 10?


1995


The President: The Minister of Environment, Food and Agriculture.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Gawne): Gura mie eu, 2000

Eaghtyrane.

Blue flag is a voluntary eco-designation run by the Foundation for Environmental Education

and is not part of any Manx legislation.

The beach criteria described in blue flag guidance appear to be limited to only four criteria,

which are subdivided into unnumbered headings. So, if the Hon. Member’s criteria 9 and 10 are 2005

considered as the sequential unnumbered headings, these would be: criterion 9, no industrial waste

water or sewage-related discharges should affect the beach area; and criterion 10, the beach must

comply with blue flag requirements for the microbial parameters fecal coliform bacteria, e. coli

and intestinal enterococci streptococci.

If these interpretations of the Hon. Member’s questions are correct, the answers would be… In 2010

relation to criterion 9, the crucial phrase is ‘affect the beach area’. If adequate treatment were

provided, there would be no effect on the beach area. This question may be pointless, as the Peel

breakwater discharge location appears to no longer be an option, as described in my Answer

earlier and indeed and in the Keys on 11th June.

In relation to criterion 10, any licence to discharge issued would be required to consider the 2015

previous directive 76/160/EEC, which was set as an objective by Tynwald in 1990. Blue flag

criteria describes the standard in the new directive 2006/7/ EC, which has not been adopted by

Tynwald, as described in my previous Answer to the same Hon. Member in June.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Karran. 2020

Mr Karran: [Inaudible]


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HEALTH

Regulation of health and social care professionals

UK joint consultation paper

19. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health:

Whether his Department made submissions to the 2012 joint consultation paper by the Law

Commission, Scottish Law Commission and Northern Ireland Law Commission on the

Regulation of Health Care Professionals and the Regulation of Social Care Professionals in

England?




The President: The Minister for Health to reply.

The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the Department considered the 2030

consultation undertaken by the Law Commissions and concluded that there was nothing of

substance which we wanted to submit, particularly as we had already embarked on the

introduction of parallel legislation and thus the questions they raised were largely addressed in our

forthcoming National Health Service Bill. We therefore did not feel it necessary to make any

submission. Individuals may have done so, of course, through their representative bodies. 2035

The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.


I actually find that Answer quite astounding, given – 2040

Mr Shimmin: Again.

Mrs Beecroft: Yes, again.

I would like some further comment from the Minister on this. If I could just read a couple of 2045

bits for Members’ interest, it says:

‘The legislative framework for health and social care professional regulation in the Channel Islands and the Isle of

Man is formally outside the remit of our review. However, concerns have been brought to our attention that for example certain health and social care professions are left unregulated in these jurisdictions, and that the fitness to

practise regimes are insufficiently comprehensive and robust in order to protect the public in the islands, who in most

cases will be British citizens.’

It goes on, further down, to say:

‘It would be possible in theory for the Government to decide to extend the UK regulatory frameworks to include the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man by bringing these islands within its jurisdiction of our statute.’ 2050

And it asks:

‘Although making recommendations on this matter is outside the scope of our review, we welcome further views on this political opinion.’

I would have thought the Minister for Health would want to give some sort of political opinion

when statements like these are being made.

The President: That is an opinion, Hon. Member. You have not asked a question. 2055

Mrs Beecroft: I did ask for his opinion and a further statement on it, Madam President.


2060


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The Minister: Madam President, all outstanding matters will be addressed through our new

Bill, which is presently being drafted – the National Health Service Bill – and we will specifically

address the matters the UK registration of professionals are working with here. So we will cover

those in our own regulations. I think only one of the other islands actually made comment, and

most of them have taken the view that we have taken, that we should introduce our own parallel 2065

legislation.

The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Beecroft.


Would the Minister not agree that it would have been appropriate to make that a submission to

this joint body that is looking at this, to make our position clear of what we are actually

considering doing?


The Minister: We are clear, Madam President, about what we are going to do: we are going to

introduce our own legislation, and I think is the most appropriate thing to do.

Health Service review

Terms of reference

20. The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Singer) to ask the Minister for Health:

Who will determine the terms of reference for the independent review body which is to

investigate issues within the Health Service and in particular Noble’s Hospital and the

complaints procedure?

The President: Question 20, the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.

2080

Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President.

I beg to ask to ask the Question standing in my name.

The President: The Minister for Health to reply.

2085

The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, I seem to have jumped one.

As Hon. Member will be aware, I will shortly be making a Statement on this matter to this

Hon. Court and do not wish to prejudice what I might say in that Statement. I can say, however,

that as the contracting body is in the final analysis, it is for the Department to agree the terms of

reference, in consultation with the review team. 2090

The President: A supplementary, Mr Singer.


Could I ask a request of the Minister to confirm that maybe… does he believe that there should 2095

be no tight boundaries to the terms of reference if we want a true and honest picture of the issues,

because any interference or restrictions in the work of a review body negates the whole concept of

finding out if anything is wrong, and if so, what needs to be done?


The Minister: Yes, Madam President, I would concur with the Hon. Member and I think the

boundary should be set as widely as possible.

Just to give a flavour, there are three points to this: first is to provide an assessment to the

Manx public, politicians and staff of the Isle of Man Health Service of the quality of care provided 2105

to Manx patients; secondly, to identify where areas of service are in need of improvement, with

special reference to any areas in which there is an unacceptable risk to patient and/or staff safety;


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and thirdly, to comment upon the sustainability or otherwise of the services currently provided by

the Isle of Man.

2110



Could the Minister confirm that when the terms of reference are finalised they will be made

public? Could he further confirm that the review itself, once completed, will be made public? 2115


The Minister: Madam President, I confirm both of those points.

2120

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Singer.


Could the Minister inform me whether the terms of reference will ensure that the priority

investigation is into the working of Noble’s Hospital and the complaints procedure? It is now 2125

about to cover the whole of the Health Service, and I am sure he understands that many people in

this Hon. Court believe that Noble’s Hospital and the complaints procedure are the priorities. Will

we have to wait for the whole report to be completed before we would see any answers to those

priorities?

2130


The Minister: Madam President, I have already made it clear that Noble’s and the complaints

procedure will be an area of priority, and my understanding is that talks with the potential provider

are still going on. My understanding is that information, as and when one area is completed, will 2135

be submitted to the Department to then publicise.

Bowel surgery

External review


(a) Whether the recent review into colorectal surgery incorporated all surgeons performing

colorectal surgery at Noble’s Hospital;

(b) how many cases were externally reviewed, broken down by each surgeon;

(c) whether all recommendations made by the external reviewers have been acted on before

recommencing elective bowel surgery; and

(d) whether all surgeons have now fully recommenced elective bowel surgery at Noble’s

Hospital?

The President: Question 21, the Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Beecroft.


I ask the Question standing in my name. 2140

The President: Minister for Health to reply.

The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, the Department of Health

temporarily suspended performing elective colorectal surgery at Noble’s Hospital. The decision to 2145

suspend surgery was taken as a consequence of the recognition of a higher than expected

complication rate in patients undergoing colorectal surgery.

The suspension was imposed whilst we investigated practices and procedures. Our

investigations concluded in an external review. It must be recognised that this type of surgery is

often high-risk surgery and that some of the patients are often very sick. Those patients who are 2150


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very ill are more likely to experience complications following this surgery, and this may be

contributory in our case.

It is not uncommon for a healthcare organisation to take steps as part of good patient safety and

governance procedures, and indeed we have a responsibility to do so and ensure that the highest

support and care is provided to our patients at Noble’s Hospital. 2155

The review was of all cases where complications occurred. There were four cases externally

reviewed. All four patients who experienced complications were under the care of one general

surgeon.

The external review made recommendations which were divided into short-term and longer-

term actions. They advised that we could recommence colorectal surgery once the short-term 2160

recommendations were achieved. These were achieved before we recommenced elective colorectal

surgery by the deadline of May 2013. Work is still ongoing to ensure we meet the longer-term

recommendations. Not all surgeons have recommenced elective colorectal surgery at Noble’s

Hospital.

2165

The President: Further supplementary, Mrs Beecroft.


Could the Minister confirm what the short-term and long-term recommendations were?

2170


The Minister: Madam President, they are quite detailed. I will try and get that information to

Hon. Members and circulate it in the next few days.

2175



Could the Minister confirm that, regarding this colorectal surgery review and all its

implications, when you gave evidence with your Chief Executive to the Social Affairs Committee 2180

back in January, can you confirm that all the information that you gave was accurate and correct?


The Minister: To my knowledge, Madam President. 2185

Orthopaedics and rheumatology

Waiting lists

22. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Health:

What recent assessment he has made of the waiting lists and times to treatment for patients in

orthopaedics and rheumatology; and what steps he is taking to reduce them?

The President: Question 22, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall.

Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President.


2190

The President: Minister for Health to reply.

The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, hospital waiting list information

is produced on a monthly basis and so I am aware of the waiting list times for patients.

Much work has been done and continues to be done to keep the lists as short as possible. Such 2195

measures include additional clinics in orthopaedics, as well as physiotherapy-led clinics in

orthopaedics to triage patients. The self-referral system for musculoskeletal conditions for

physiotherapy will undoubtedly have an impact on our orthopaedic waiting list. Whilst this

continues, I am aware that waiting times in orthopaedics do vary between consultants. This is


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because of the variation within the case mix which is referred to them, and the Hospital will be 2200

concentrating on achieving a more balanced waiting time for orthopaedic procedures in the

coming months.

With regard to rheumatology, a full review of the patients waiting has been undertaken to

ensure an accurate understanding is obtained with regard to the demand for the rheumatology

service and the capacity that is available for the service to cope with that demand. This is another 2205

service in which the requirement from patients exceeds the capacity of the service. We do not have

enough resource within the service to cope with the present demand. We are presently working

with clinical staff in order to try and address the deficit.

One of the main challenges that we are faced with is the lack of suitably qualified medical staff

to support the service. This has a significant impact upon the rheumatology team’s ability to 2210

respond to referrals. Our priority has been to ensure the safe monitoring and administration of

disease-modifying treatments to those patients who are already in the service.

Recruitment to the specialist doctor positions to support the consultant, as I say, has been

difficult and is currently in the process of being re-advertised. A locum specialty doctor

replacement has been requested from a locum agency, but to date no suitable candidate can be 2215

found.

Dr Peshin, a consultant rheumatologist, had planned to undertake some additional clinics,

which were intended to reduce waiting lists, but at the moment these clinics are now having to act

as a buffer to see patients who should have been seen by the supporting specialty doctor. 2220

The team is doing all it can at the present time to rectify this situation and every step is being

taken to ensure that patients are being seen as quickly as possible and receive the best care that is

available to them.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Hall. 2225

Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President, and the Minister for his Answer.

I am sure I cannot be alone in finding uncomfortable the situation which is being described.

Does the Hon. Minister not agree that some vulnerable patients are being condemned to months,

and years in some cases, of unnecessary pain, discomfort and disability because of long waits for 2230

orthopaedic and rheumatology care and the failure of the Department to address and to get on top

of the issue? The situation is particularly affecting pensioners and the elderly – the very people

which the administration claims that they are there to protect?

The President: The Minister to reply. 2235

The Minister: Madam President, the Hon. Member will be well aware that the capacity for the

number of patients coming forward… we cannot deal with it in the capacity that we have got.

Therefore, we are looking at various ways, with the clinicians, to find better ways of trying to

come to terms with this. There are no quick fixes here, Madam President. It is a resource issue. 2240

The Hon. Member will have attended our presentation on waiting lists last year where many of

the areas of our problems were highlighted and the initiatives we are putting forward to try and

prove things were outlined. I hope to give Hon. Members, in the autumn, a comparison to see

where we have improved, but there are areas we are struggling, as I said in my original Answer, to

have the required medics to support consultants, and therefore that is giving us a problem as well. 2245

We are looking at locum agencies and trying to get the qualified personnel through those, but

we are struggling to find the personnel as well. So, where we do have the resource, we are still

struggling to get the personnel – because it is a problem throughout the UK not just the Isle of

Man.

I would like to assure the Hon. Member it continues to be a priority for the Department in 2250

trying to resolve the issues of waiting lists, but I have not a magic wand. Predominantly, it is a

resource issue and people are prioritised on their clinical need.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Quayle.

2255


Can the Minister confirm that his Department does benchmarking of costings on the provision

of individual procedures at Noble’s – for example, hip replacements? If this is the case, can he

advise how our costs compare with a UK hospital? If there is a saving, has he looked at sending

people on the waiting lists to the UK to reduce the waiting lists and save the taxpayer money? 2260


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The Minister: I can inform the Hon. Member we do benchmarking. However, the Hon.

Member will be aware that we do several complicated procedures on Island that have never been 2265

done in previous years, and patients have been pleased that they have been able to have those

procedures on Island, where previously they have had to go off Island.

Predominantly speaking, where these operations take place depends on the complication and

the specialty of those operations, so it is very difficult to make a general assessment of whether we

can actually do something cheaper on the Island. 2270

We have to recognise that if an individual patient has an operation off Island, they have several

trips to the UK – a pre-operation trip and then, following their operation, when they come back to

the Island they will have several consultations with that person who carried out the operation in

the UK. Therefore, those costs have to be borne in mind as well and they can add up to a

considerable amount of money. Even if the original operation might be slightly cheaper, the 2275

ongoing costs are quite extensive.



Would the Minister acknowledge that, apart from resource problems, his Department has a

problem with communication and communicating the waiting times and the cancelled

appointments, particularly in rheumatology?

I actually went to a gentleman’s house, because he had a message left on his answerphone to

tell him his appointment the next day had been cancelled. The message said, ‘The staff doctor has 2285

upped and left with no notice, so your appointment has been cancelled.’ Is that the best way of

communicating difficulties to patients who have been waiting a long time for an appointment?

Does he not feel that his staff actually could do with some training in communication of problems?


The Minister: I am more than happy to look into any issue any Hon. Member brings before

me, but unfortunately these things do happen sometimes.

I am aware of one locum who upped and left with a day’s notice. They did not have any

contractual obligations to us because they were a locum. It was something that was outside of our 2295

control and unfortunately there was nobody to step in to take the place of that individual.

If the Hon. Member would like to give me the details about how that patient was contacted and

how she thinks it is inappropriate, I am more than happy to look into that.

The President: A supplementary, Mr Downie. 2300

Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is aware that some appointments are sent out almost a

year in advance and then extended and altered? What effect does this have in giving an accurate

picture of the waiting lists; and what happens to fresh referrals, particularly people who have been 2305

waiting over 12 months with severe pain and all sorts of other mobility problems?

The President: I think we are straying into a lot of detail on this, Hon. Members.

Minister, you may reply, if you wish.

2310

The Minister: Yes, I thank the Hon. Member for his question. It might have been more useful

if he had given me the information so that I could have researched that and come back to him. I am

more than happy to do that if he gives me the detail.

Obviously, sometimes appointments are sent out well in advance. Circumstances do change,

but sometimes people are called back for check-ups as a result of having something and then given 2315

another date to come back, say, in 12 months’ time, and obviously things change in 12 months.

Therefore, sometimes, with the best will in the world, they cannot be seen at that time with that

consultant, or that doctor might have moved on and therefore it goes into someone else’s diary.

I am more than happy to look at that if he gives me the details.

2320

The President: A supplementary, Mr Skelly.


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Does the Minister agree that some of the medical professionals and consultants he employs are

conflicted in managing these waiting lists due to their divided work for the NHS and their private 2325

work?

If he does not agree, can he advise how these same medical professionals are playing or have

played a proactive role in reducing these waiting lists?



I think you have got to understand that consultants have a contract with the National Health

Service to deliver so many hours to us, and over and above that some of them can and do provide

private medicine outside the NHS. That is part of their contract and that relationship between their 2335

obligation to the NHS and their private work is very closely monitored.

Actually, if they do private work outside of their NHS contractual work, it helps the Hospital

because they do that on top of their obligation for NHS work. Unfortunately, because the

individual consultants have to take private insurance out for their private work, some of them have

stopped doing private work because it costs so much. Unfortunately, that has lost us capacity 2340

within the Hospital because the insurance costs for their private work are now so prohibitive. So

that has given us a problem.

But as far as private work is concerned, it is something we encourage, because it actually takes

the pressure off the NHS system and it is done outside the hours of their NHS obligation.

2345

The President: Final supplementary, Mr Hall.


The Minister stated that this was a problem in the UK. But would he not agree that, whilst this

may be an issue in the UK, the problem in the Isle of Man is far greater, far more serious, because 2350

the resources simply have not gone in to try to address it?

I recently received a complaint from one person who has been waiting three years or so for a

routine operation and whose condition has deteriorated in recent months, but is yet still facing an

uncertain wait. In fact, the person was told that it would be not too long, not many weeks. That

was back in March and there is no sign of any surgery. Does he not further agree that for anyone to 2355

be expected and told that they have got to wait for 18 months, two years, three years in some

cases, or more, often in considerable discomfort and pain, for a routine procedure, it can only be

described as scandalous?


The Minister: The Hon. Member, Madam President, gives his opinion there about a routine

procedure. What I encourage Hon. Members to do is, if a routine procedure has actually changed

and the patient thinks it has changed to become something more than routine, they should go back

to their GP, who will refer them back to the consultant to analyse them again to make sure it is still 2365

not routine and it has become something more than routine and needs to be seen to in a more

timely manner.

I think I would give that advice to anybody. If people’s condition deteriorates, then you should

go back and get your GP to refer you back to your consultant or speak to the consultant so that

they can categorise in a different way. 2370

The President: Hon. Members, the remaining Questions will be answered –

Suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to complete Question Paper

Motion lost

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I move the suspension of Standing Order 3.5(2) to enable the

remaining Questions for Oral Answer to be taken at this sitting.

2375


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1595 T130

The President: Is there a seconder?

Mr Hall: I beg to second.

The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? 2380

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 12, Noes 11

FOR Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Cannan Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Skelly The Speaker

AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Teare Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mr Shimmin Mr Watterson Mr Gawne

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys 12 votes for, 11 against. The motion therefore

fails to carry.

In the Council – Ayes 2, Noes 6

FOR Mr Crowe Mr Turner

AGAINST Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

The President: In the Council, 2 for and 6 against. The motion does fail to carry,

Hon. Members.

The remaining Questions will be answered in writing. 2385


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Questions for Written Answer

HEALTH

Noble’s Hospital

Waiting lists

23. The Hon. Member for Middle (Mr Quayle) to ask the Minister for Health:

If he will make a statement on the success of his initiatives to reduce the waiting lists in

Noble’s Hospital; and how long the current waiting lists are for –

(a) orthopaedics;

(b) physiotherapy;

(c) pain clinic;

(d) dermatology; and

(e) ENT?

Answer: At the end of May, our latest figures, for the number of patients currently waiting and

the lengths of time it is anticipated they will wait are:-

Waiting List Activity (including Ramsey) as at 31st May 2013

Inpatients Total Patients Waiting by Month

Division

Total

Waiting 0-2 3-5 6-11 12-17 18-23 24+

ENT 318 78 71 90 68 9 2

Pain Management 43 34 8 1

Orthopaedic Surgery 643 269 125 137 83 28 1

Outpatients Total Patients Waiting by Month

Division

Total

Waiting 0-2 3-5 6-11 12-17 18-23 24+

ENT 332 249 68 6 5 4

Pain Management 303 30 33 66 40 60 74

Orthopaedic Surgery 1,264 419 229 323 236 56 1

Dermatology 1,220 112 92 169 177 171 499

The number of patients waiting broken down by month as at 31st May 2013

I will circulate these figures to Hon. Members for their information.

With regards to the Physiotherapy Service, the initiatives that have been put in place have

virtually eliminated any lists on which patients wait. Our positions in Physiotherapy are: 2390

For Paediatric Physiotherapy – less than one week;

Outpatients Musculo-Skeletal Physiotherapy – less than one week;

Community Physiotherapy – two weeks

Chronic Orthopaedic conditions – less than four weeks 2395

The Hospital has reviewed its services and ensured that they are using its resources as

efficiently as it can – it has provided additional clinics in Orthopaedics as well as Physiotherapy

led clinics in Orthopaedics to triage patients, a nurse-led Clinic in Pain Management, a Minor

Operation session in E.N.T, and Self-Referral for Musculo-Skeletal conditions to Physiotherapy. 2400


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All these initiatives have brought us improvement and success and have been achieved within

existing resources. Much work has gone on into validating waiting lists to ensure that the Patients

on the list do need to be on the waiting list, this is helping us to ensure that the lists are as short as

possible. A strategy to reduce Patients who do not attend (‘DNAs’) was introduced which included

an ‘Opt-in’ scheme, where Patients are telephoned and offered an appointment date and time to 2405

ensure that they can attend. An appointments bureau has been set up to centralise the

appointments. We are seeing signs of improvement with this but we still need time to evaluate its

full impact.

Additional measures have been taken to try to manage the demand for services, such as

education sessions with General Practitioners on Orthopaedic referrals so that Patients are referred 2410

appropriately; Patient pathways have been developed by General Practitioners and Hospital staff.

As Members will be aware, a presentation was made to Tynwald regarding Hospital waiting

lists in November 2012. This identified that additional resources were necessary if we were to

reduce waiting lists in the long term. I think the work that we’ve done proves that the demand for

our services is greater than the resource we have to meet that demand. At that presentation, for 2415

example, we outlined that we need, for instance, five Administration Officers for waiting list

administration / maintenance and 17.71 WTE of staff at a cost of £1.2 million to open the

additional Theatre capacity. Without investing further we are not going to be able to make further

substantial differences to the waiting lists that we have.

INFRASTRUCTURE

Surface dressing programme

Quality control checks

24. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What quality control checks will be in place for the surface dressing programme that is being

advanced this summer?

Answer: Following a quality control problem during the 2011 surface dressing programme in 2420

the Willaston Estate, Colas, the surface dressing Contractor, together with the Department’s

Engineers undertook an investigation.

The problems encountered at Willaston were caused by a failure of the bitumen spray system.

Insufficient bitumen was coated onto the road before chippings were laid. As a result some of the

chippings did not adhere and the surface dressing prematurely failed. This was particularly 2425

prevalent around the junctions.

Since that failure the following additional control measures have been implemented to ensure

quality:

Binder flow rates are measured daily on site and recorded to ensure that the spray system 2430

is working correctly. This will minimise the chance of over or under spraying of bitumen

on to the road surface.

All stone is now double washed before issue by the Department to minimise any dust

within the chippings prior to laying.

The roads are swept using water to minimise dust generated from the sweeping process. 2435

The Department’s engineers carry out increased inspection on the work being carried out

by Colas to ensure compliance with the agreed working practices and to assess both

quality and health and safety.

Stone tests are carried out every morning to check dust levels. If the dust levels are too

high the materials is rewashed. 2440

Tests are carried out daily to ensure that the correct rate of chippings is being applied to

the site.


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Building byelaws in Douglas

Enforcement

25. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

If his Department will take control of enforcement of building byelaws in Douglas?

Answer: The Department is currently undertaking a fundamental review of how it delivers its

services and functions to meet the future needs of the Island. In so doing, this review will assess

all alternative means and options for service delivery. This is to be completed by December 2013 2445

and the Building Control Service is one of such services under review.

In respect of the provision of Building Control services throughout the Island, included in the

review are the options to maintain the status-quo, the option for a single Island-wide Unified

Building Control service and/or the option for a decentralised Building Control Service.

Retrospective planning applications

Consistency with rule of law


Whether the current enforcement policy of the Department of Infrastructure which permits

offending property owners to correct breaches of lawful planning requirements by way of

retrospective planning applications is consistent with the rule of law?

Answer: The enforcement policy of the Planning and Building Control Division, is, in most 2450

instances, to first seek regularisation of a breach of planning by the submission of a retrospective

planning application. This is consistent with the Rule of Law and is also consistent with

enforcement practices undertaken in all UK jurisdictions.

The Rule of Law seeks to preserve, protect and defend the rights and property of individuals

and the wider community. 2455

Allowing a member of the public to apply for a retrospective planning approval and in the

consideration of that application to take into account the effects of that development on other

parties, is consistent with that principle. The policy to normally allow for a retrospective

application to be submitted does not undermine the rights of other parties to make comment on the

application. All retrospective applications are determined on their merits, taking into account the 2460

impact of that development on neighbouring properties. The fact that work may have already been

carried out does not influence the assessment of the application either way. If the development is

considered to be unacceptable, it will be refused and enforcement action considered, and if it is

approved, then no further action will be taken.

Such an approach does not take away the ability for the Planning and Building Control 2465

Division to undertake legal action immediately should it believe it is expedient to do so, or to do

so following the determination of an application.

I am advised that the Planning and Building Control Division considers that the Courts do not

look favourably on Government commencing enforcement proceedings without having given the

person(s) concerned a chance to redress the situation. Moreover, such proceedings are generally 2470

only commenced when there is very little chance of regularising a breach and when it is causing

immediate harm to third parties or the environment. In those instances an enforcement notice (and

stop notice) may be issued.

New and refurbished properties

Statutory warranties 2475


What plans he has to introduce statutory warranties for new and re-furbished properties

Answer: In formulating my answer, I have assumed that the Hon Member is referring to

properties in the private sector alone and not those in the public sector.


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1599 T130

It is not the function of the Department to introduce, or make provision, for any insurance 2480

schemes (or similar) in respect to the workmanship of tradespersons. That is a matter solely for the

tradesperson to ensure compliance with the relevant Codes of Practice which govern that particular

works undertaking. Furthermore, to introduce such a scheme would also potentially bring

Government into civil disputes between property owners and tradespersons which would be

detrimental to the public purse. 2485

It is my understanding that the National House Building Council (NHBC) currently provides

an insurance scheme titled ‘NHBC Buildmark’, which provides insurance based cover in respect

to defects in the way in which a new home is built and/or a property is converted. I am also

informed that this scheme applies to newly built, converted or renovated homes registered with

NHBC from 1st April 2012 and cover is available for a period of 10 years. 2490

Additionally, the Manx Accredited Construction Contractors Scheme was introduced on 1st

April 2010 by the former Department of Trade and Industry and I was involved in the creation of

this scheme during my time as Minister for that Department. Whilst, I accept that this is not an

insurance or warranty scheme, per se, it nonetheless provides consumers with a list of accredited

contractors in respect of various types of building works thus giving them confidence that they 2495

will be afforded a quality standard of workmanship. Acceptance onto the accredited list is

stringently regulated so as to ensure that only those companies/individuals who can meet the

appropriate standards will be accepted therein. Moreover, the NHBC Buildmark scheme can also

be offered by those approved members of the Manx Accredited Construction Contractors Scheme,

if appropriate. 2500

SOCIAL CARE

Independent review of Children’s Services

Preparatory assessment

28. The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

Pursuant to his Answer to Question 28 of 18th June, if he will make a statement on his reasons

for not giving Members of Tynwald copies of the independent reviewer’s preparatory

assessment of children’s services, which was undertaken in November 2012?

Answer: The preliminary assessment carried out by the independent reviewer was carried for

three reasons to enable everybody involved in providing Children’s services:

1. to evaluate the quality and appropriateness of the services they provide

2. to identify what needed to be improved or revised and 2505

3. to give staff the experience of what a full inspection will be like.

Not all areas of children’s services were evaluated in the preparatory assessment so the

assessment would not give a true picture of the whole arena of children’s services. It is also

important to note that a significant element of this preparatory work was on self assessment basis 2510

allowing the inspectors to compare their findings with those assessed to be the case by the teams

being inspected. Therefore the Social Policy and Children’s Committee Ministers decided that it

would be more appropriate to use the document as an education exercise for staff and wait for the

full inspection report on the whole range of children’s services to be produced for members to

debate on the floor of Tynwald. 2515

Considering the interest and importance of this inspection, a copy of the scope of the

Inspection was circulated to all Members prior to this sitting.


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1600 T130

Glenside building and site

Plans for future use

29. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

What plans he has for the future of the empty Glenside building and site at the junction of

Victoria Road and Glencrutchery Road; what assessment he has made of how best to re-use

current building?

Answer: Further to our recent responses to the Hon. Members questions about the future of the

Glenside site, the Department of Social Care remains in discussion with Treasury, the Department

of Infrastructure and other Government Departments reviewing the future options for Glenside, 2520

and other strategically owned Government assets, to make best use of them in delivering

Government’s objectives over the next five years and beyond. Consideration of reuse of parts of

the structures at Glenside do form part of the review being undertaken.

Glenside is a key site in the Douglas Area which could provide my own or other Department’s

with an opportunity to meet their planned development needs. 2525

Long-term unemployed

Benefits system

30. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Henderson) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

Further to his recent media statement indicating a crackdown on the long-term unemployed,

whether this will ensure benefits available to the unemployed who wish to undertake any

training programmes will not leave them less well off by undertaking any training; what advice

he has to offer the long-term unemployed or young unemployed who require work-based

experience, who have been trying unsuccessfully to gain such experience; if his Department

will assess in genuine cases where a person has been continually making an effort to apply for

work the reasons for failure; and if he will work with the Department of Economic

Development to improve employment uptake in such circumstances to ensure that in such cases

persons will not be penalised?

Answer: The Department does not accept the interpretation put on this initiative as a

crackdown on the long term unemployed as the question suggests.

The Department is reacting to the inability hitherto of our benefits systems to respond

constructively and proactively to the plight of the long term unemployed.

As highlighted in the Social Policy debate last year The Minister for Social Care described the 2530

benefits system as one that too often placed people in boxes and in so doing created traps which

are difficult in certain cases to get out of.

If we are going to help those people stuck in long term unemployment we will have to treat

them as individuals – not as government statistics or a category to whom we allocate benefits and

consider our job done – when in reality our work has not even started. 2535

Some of the predicaments that the long term unemployed find themselves in:

There are those who have a strong and genuine desire to get into employment but by the

circumstance of their extended period of unemployment are not taken seriously by

employers. We need to identify what it is they can do and help them to gain experience

and confidence in those areas, provide them with evidence of their performance and 2540

encourage them to approach employers once again – this time with a proven track record.

There are others amongst the long term unemployed who have become too comfortable

and who will continually justify their predicament as being unavoidable and not their

fault. Here the benefits system has not helped by in some circumstances providing more

in benefits than they could earn through employment. DED has raised the minimum rate 2545

of pay this year and are doing what they can to encourage further moves in the next few

years. The Department of Social Care will be reassessing the structure of the benefits

systems with a view to progressively moving away from a situation where someone is

better off on benefits than in work. As a final sanction, where there is considerable

intransigence on the part of someone who we have really tried hard to help with no result 2550

- we will be looking at what financial sanctions can reasonably be imposed to encourage a

change of attitude.


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1601 T130

There are also those who wish to work but for whatever reason are genuinely unable to do

so. As our ability to focus more carefully on individual needs improves we very much

hope that we will also find ways to better help those individuals live more productive and 2555

fulfilling lives.

The Department believes that there really is ‘dignity in work’, we believe that almost everyone

has something to contribute and that paying people to do nothing is unacceptable.

In the next few weeks the Minister will be writing to all ministers, local authorities and third

sector organisations further introducing them to this initiative and asking them if they can begin to 2560

engage in some way. However it is not intended by encouraging such schemes that this will lead to

displacement employment in the private sector, something that has plagued schemes elsewhere.

To further assist the development of employment programmes the Department will be coming

to Tynwald in the Autumn seeking permission, through a piece of secondary legislation, to redirect

jobseekers allowance as payment for employment on these programmes either in part or whole 2565

such that the hourly rate of pay being enjoyed is no less than the minimum rate of pay in operation

at the time.

To specifically ensure that those entering the programme will not be financially worse off than

being on benefits we will, for example, reimburse participants the costs of buying work clothes or

the cost of bus fares getting to and from work etc. 2570

As stated in the press release our focus will increase significantly once someone has been

unemployed for five months for the reality is that most people who claim JSA find their own way

back into employment well before this threshold and for them this benefit works well just as it is.

When considering this initiative, taken with Treasury’s successful employment initiative on

national insurance, the department of Education and Children’s closer working relationship with 2575

the Department of Economic Development on preparing our children for their adult working life in

a fast changing world and, the considerable work already embarked on by the Department of

Economic Development shows that this administration is determined to do all it can to ameliorate

the insidious damage unemployment causes the individual.

Children and Families social workers

Agency staff

31. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

Pursuant to his Answer to Question 27 in the June sitting of Tynwald, why an additional 51

agency Children and Families social workers were employed at a cost of £2,027,538 when the

July 2011 Tynwald approved a supplementary vote of £498,000 to recruit an additional 10

Children and Families social workers?

Answer: The answer to question 27 in the June sitting of Tynwald and the supplementary vote 2580

are both two separate items but also interlinked.

Mr Speakers question asked for the number of locum social workers employed by the

children’s and families division of the Department of Social Care over the past four years,

showing how many completed their contracts and how many left for other reasons and the total

cost of employing these social workers for each of the years. 2585

These social workers were brought in to cover staff vacancies and following the approval of

the supplementary vote the ten additional posts granted to the division. The costs quoted of

£2,027,538 above cover the two years from 1st June 2010 to 31st May 2012 part of which relate to

costs to cover staff vacancies and part for the additional ten staff. Obviously the granting of the

extra social workers by Tynwald means that the permanent staff numbers increased by ten and the 2590

funding of £498,000 is built into the budgets every year thereafter, therefore the budget figure for

the two years would be £996,000.

The contracts for the interims were for three or six month periods as it was hoped that

vacancies would be filled by permanent members of staff, so over a period of a year two /three

social workers could have covered one vacancy. Recruiting experienced permanent social workers 2595

has proved problematic so the Department still needs to employ interim social workers to cover

the caseload. The Department currently still employs seven agency social workers but the salaries

budget for the division for 2012/13 was not overspent.


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1602 T130

Children and Families social workers 2600

Cessation of employment


Pursuant to his Answer to Question 27 in the June sitting of Tynwald why 28 of the 51 2605

additional Children and Families social workers recruited from June 2011 did not continue

their employment?

Answer: Question 27 at the June sitting of Tynwald related to interim social workers and the

reasons for leaving were stated in the written answer. But to recap the 28 that left over the two 2610

year period, left for the following reasons:-

Six left due to unsatisfactory performance, the department ended the contract

Three left due to ill health either personal ill health or that of a family member

Seventeen resigned due to desire to return to work in the UK i.e. to reduce travel time, 2615

prolonged absence from family etc.

Two left for financial reasons, w.e.f 1st April 2013 they were required to pay tax on the

Isle of Man.

ISLE OF MAN POST OFFICE

Victoria Road

Removal of letter box

33. The Hon. Member for Douglas North (Mr Houghton) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:

Why the Post Office removed the letter box on Victoria Road; what surveys were undertaken to

support the removal; and if he will have it reinstated?

Answer: I have already provided this information to the Hon. Member but I am happy to now

share it with this honourable Court. 2620

The letterbox was removed because it was situated in close proximity to a zebra crossing and

the busy junction of Governors Bridge. It was judged to be in a location dangerous for members of

the public to use and postal staff to service.

The Post Office surveyed use of the letterbox over a three week period which showed an

average of two-three letters being posted each day. 2625

No, I will not have the letterbox reinstated as I am advised it to be an unsafe location for one to

be situated in.

CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

Civil servants

Numbers suspended on full pay and cost; numbers employed in OHR

34. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chairman of the Civil Service

Commission:

How many civil servants have been suspended on full pay since 1st April 2013; what the cost

has been of replacing these people in addition to the cost of their pay; why so many personnel

and HR managers are employed at St Andrew’s House and what the cost of employing them is?

Answer: There has been only one suspension implemented since 1st April 2013 in respect of a

member of the Civil Service. No cost in addition to the job holder’s pay has been incurred in

respect of such suspension to date. 2630

The reference in the Question to ‘personnel and HR managers’ is taken to be a reference to the


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HR Business Partners and HR Advisers on the staff of the Office of Human Resources, which is

based, principally, on the 2nd Floor of St. Andrew’s House, Finch Road, Douglas.

The Office of Human Resources was formed as a key part of the Transforming Government

programme, bringing together the specialist human resources services and related functions 2635

previously located within the Departments of Government along with those of a number of Boards

and other bodies, including the Isle of Man Water and Sewerage Authority, Manx National

Heritage and The Personnel Office, into a centralised organisation providing specialist HR related

services across the majority of Government.

In total there are 16.9 Business Partners and HR Adviser roles, in full-time equivalent terms, 2640

on the staff of the Office of Human Resources and for the year ended 31st March 2013 the actual

cost for salaries (including Employers’ National Insurance contributions) in respect of the HR

Business Partners and HR Advisers totalled £759,598.

PUBLIC SECTOR PENSIONS AUTHORITY

PSPA annual accounts

Value of scheme liabilities; clearing scheme liabilities

35. The Hon. Member for Castletown (Mr Ronan) to ask the Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector

Pensions Authority:

What the current figure is for past service liabilities in this year’s Public Sector Pensions

Authority annual accounts; by how much the figure has increased in the last 12 months; and

based upon current UK life expectancy data of 83 for males and 85.5 for females, given the

average age of current public sector employees of 47, how many years it will take to clear the

March 2013 liability if no changes are made to the current scheme?

Answer: With regard to the first part of the question on the value of scheme liabilities, this is

the first year in which the Public Sector Pensions Authority has been required by legislation to 2645

prepare annual audited accounts for each of its schemes. The Authority, its auditors and its

actuaries are working towards having accounts ready to lay before Tynwald towards the end of the

year. These accounts will show, amongst other information, the liability position of the major

schemes managed by the PSPA in the year to 31st March 2013. However, they are unlikely to

show the historic position of the movement in liabilities over the previous year as the Authority 2650

was not required to prepare accounts for previous years.

The liabilities of the schemes managed by the PSPA will be reviewed at regular intervals of

around three years via actuarial reviews. Such reviews will consider how liabilities have moved

and the reasons for those movements. The first actuarial review of the Unified Scheme will take

place over the course of the next year and reviews for other schemes will follow in subsequent 2655

years once anticipated changes have been made to those schemes. I refer in particular to expected

changes to Teachers and Police Pension Schemes over the course of the next two years.

With regard to the second part of the question concerning clearing scheme liabilities, as the

majority of the Isle of Man public sector schemes are unfunded (unlike equivalent private sector

schemes which are funded), it would not be physically possible to clear or remove those liabilities 2660

unless each scheme is closed to the future accrual of benefits for both current and new employees.

Even then, liabilities would remain in respect of both current retired members and members with

preserved benefits who have not yet retired. Therefore, pension liabilities would remain until the

spouse of the youngest current member had died in retirement, which could potentially be in over

80 years’ time. 2665

Because the majority of our public sector schemes are unfunded, there must be a process of

managing both the liabilities and the cash flows, which involves getting pension scheme members

to pay more, providing lower future benefits and encouraging those members to work longer. This

is the accepted method of managing public sector scheme liabilities which is the stance being

taken in both the UK and the Isle of Man. Closing schemes completely to members and 2670

introducing alternative money purchase type schemes would give rise to significant additional

costs which would at present be regarded as unaffordable and would tie money up in pension

schemes which could be better spent encouraging growth in the Island.


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CHIEF MINISTER

Immigration

Policy


If he will make a statement on his policy on immigration, with special reference to

implementation of the Residence Act 2001 and the enforcement of employees’ rights,

protection of wage levels and the discouragement of undesirable employment practices?

Answer: One of the key priorities of the Government is to grow the economy. This has been

clearly set out in ‘Agenda for Change’. 2675

Immigration which supports and enhances this key policy area is clearly both desirable and

necessary in order that the Island’s economy can grow and compete effectively at an international

level. For the same reasons it is in our best interests to ensure that wage levels are both

competitive and rewarding thus ensuring that the whole community benefits from our economic

success. 2680

It is also in our interests to ensure the enforcement of employees’ rights and the

discouragement of undesirable employment practices. Such matters are dealt with by the

Employment Services Inspectorate of the Department of Economic Development which carries out

compliance across a range of areas including work permits and the minimum wage and offers

guidance to both employers and employees. In addition specific enquires can be raised with the 2685

Manx Industrial Relations Service.

I have no intention of taking any action that would jeopardise economic growth for this Island

or introducing new levels of unnecessary bureaucracy at a time when a key aim is to reduce costs

and therefore there are no plans to implement the Residence Act 2001 at this time.

Deemsters

Pay freeze


Whether the Isle of Man Deemsters have been subject to a pay freeze similar to that affecting

judges in England and Wales between 2009 and 2012?

Answer: It is confirmed that the Isle of Man Deemsters have been subject to a pay freeze 2690

similar to that affecting judges in England and Wales between 2009 and 2012.

HEALTH

Noble’s Hospital

Visits by Minister for Health


How many visits he has made to Noble’s Hospital in the last two years; and what the date and

purpose of each visit was?

Answer: I do not keep a record of visits to Noble’s Hospital. I do, however, visit the Hospital

on a regular basis, not only for organised meetings or presentations but to meet staff and patients.

I have, however, visited Noble’s Hospital on seven occasions over the past month (four

organised visits and three other visits). 2695


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Noble’s Hospital

Visits by DoH Chief Executive Officer


How many visits the Chief Executive Officer has made to Noble’s Hospital in the last two

years; and what the date and purpose of each visit was?

Answer: Retrospectively examining the Chief Executive's diary over a two-year period would

be time-consuming. However, based on an analysis of recent dates, coupled with experience, it is

estimated that the Chief Executive visits the Hospital on an average of two occasions per week,

though this can of course vary from time to time. Therefore, over a two-year period, and allowing

for periods of time when the Chief Executive may be on annual leave or attending healthcare 2700

related events in the United Kingdom, this would equate to in the order of 80 visits. It should also

be noted that, additionally, visits were undertaken to other Department services on the Noble’s

campus, such as the Public Health Directorate, Mental Health and the Keyll Darree training and

education centre.

The purpose of visits vary. These include, by way of illustration but not exhaustively, 2705

attendance at general meetings; specific meetings with hospital managerial personnel and/or

healthcare professionals; visits to specific facilities, for example A&E or the laundry; patient

safety walks; the medical and dental joint negotiating committee and informal occasions such as

where the Chief Executive chooses to take lunch in the staff facilities so as to meet and chat with

staff. 2710

Hip, knee and other joint replacements

Number of over-65s on waiting list; level of urgency


How many patients aged (a) 65 and (b) 75 years or over who are in need of (i) a new hip (ii) a

new knee and (iii) other joint replacements are on the waiting list; and how many are (1)

routine referrals and (2) urgent referrals?

Original Answer: Collecting this information to provide a comprehensive response will

involve harnessing resources from many different areas across the Health Service, involving many

different staff and it will therefore take several weeks to prepare the answer to this question. I will

supply the Written Answer as quickly as possible and circulate it to Members as soon as it has

been compiled. 2715

Deferred Answer (August 2013): (a) (i) There are 29 patients aged 65 years and over who are

on the waiting list for a new hip, with an additional 21 patients aged (b) (i) 75 years and over also

waiting for a new hip.

(a) (ii) There are 54 patients aged 65 years and over on the waiting list for a new knee, with an 2720

additional 35 Patients aged (b) (ii) 75 years and over also waiting for a new knee.

(iii) We do no other Joint replacements at Noble’s Hospital.

(1) 137 Patients are classed as routine referrals (3) 2 are classed as urgent by the Orthopaedic

Consultants.

NHS staff

Numbers


How many people were working in (a) patient-facing and (b) non-patient facing positions in

the NHS on the latest date for which figures are available?

Answer: The total headcount of 1983.53 including all classifications of posts such as fixed 2725

term and trainees, can be broken down as follows:


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Pay Terms and Conditions FTE

Manx Pay Terms and Conditions (MPTC) 1233.81

Isle of Man Whitley Council 230.94

Hospital Medical and Dental 177.94

Civil Service 336.76

NJC 0.38

Therapeutic Workers 3.70

All of the staff within MPTC and Hospital Medical are patient-facing. However, many of the

staff within the other groups are also patient-facing.

Staff employed under Civil Service include Medical Secretaries, Reception staff, Ward Clerks,

Clinic Clerks, Medical Records staff, switchboard staff and Managers who all have patient-facing 2730

positions.

Staff employed under Isle of Man Whitley Council include Housekeepers, Porters and catering

staff who are all patient-facing.

Nurses

Three-month vacancy rate


What the three-month vacancy rate was for nurses in each specialist group in each year since

2006?

Original Answer: Collecting this information to provide a comprehensive response will 2735




been compiled.

2740

Deferred Answer (August 2013): The Nurse Vacancy rate in comparison to the Full Time

Equivalent for the past seven years are:

March 2013 7.89%

March 2012 10.16% 2745

March 2011 10.54%

March 2010 10.11%

March 2009 10.71%

March 2008 10.19%

March 2007 5.09% 2750

March 2006 5.08%

We have been unable to find a definition for the term ‘three-month vacancy rate’. However we

calculated these figures using the total FTE of Nursing Posts within the Department less the

employed FTE. This includes if a person is on Maternity leave and the post is being covered by 2755

another person or if a post has some vacant hours rather than just vacant posts.

We are unable to show the vacancies per specialist group as there have been changes to the

structure of the Department since 2006 and it would be impossible to show the same statistics for

the changing groups in a comparable manner.

Nurses

Number required in NHS over next three years

43. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Hall) to ask the Minister for Health :

What assessment he has made of the number of nurses which will be required in the NHS over

the next three years?


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Answer: A comprehensive and detailed Nursing Establishment Review was commissioned by 2760

the Chief Nurse and was undertaken in the Department in 2008. This Establishment Review was

undertaken on our behalf by Dr Keith Hurst, the most eminent national and international expert on

nursing staffing numbers known to the profession.

The tool that Dr Hurst uses has been scientifically validated and allows us to benchmark

ourselves against national best practice. The other NHS Trusts against which we are benchmarked 2765

with are those Trusts which achieve at least 70% within the Quality Indicators and are therefore

considered ‘best practice’ Trusts.

It is recommended that these large scale Establishment Reviews are undertaken every five

years in order to provide indicative good practice nursing staffing levels for the activity

undertaken and planned. The Department has recently recommenced the Establishment Reviews 2770

and these are presently underway.

The Reviews take into account detailed analysis of the following:

Bed occupancy;

Patient dependency and nursing care needs;

Staff activity and time spent in (i) direct care; (ii) indirect care; (iii) non-nursing (hotel type) 2775

work; and (iv) personal activities;

Nursing quality, that being the standard of care provided by that ward and its measure against

the benchmarked Trusts;

Time out, ie sickness, annual leave, maternity etc;

The actual establishment that is in place, including numbers of nurses and skill mix. 2780

From this, an accurate recommendation is made of the nursing establishment required to care

for patients safely and to a high quality on that ward.

Once the 2013 Establishment Review has been completed, I will be in a position to provide

you with the recommended outcomes.

If, in the meantime, you have any questions or would like to discuss this further, the Chief 2785

Nurse would be more than happy to meet with you to explain the work that is being undertaken.

Nurse to bed ratios

Comparative assessment


What comparative assessment he has made of the nurse to bed ratios in (a) the Isle of Man (b)

the UK and (c) the Channel Islands; and if he will make a statement?

Answer: A comprehensive and detailed Nursing Establishment Review was commissioned by

the Chief Nurse and was undertaken in the Department in 2008. This Establishment Review was

undertaken on our behalf by Dr Keith Hurst, the most eminent national and international expert on

nursing staffing numbers known to the profession. 2790

The tool that Dr Hurst uses has been scientifically validated and allows us to benchmark

ourselves against national best practice. The other NHS Trusts against which we are benchmarked

with are those Trusts which achieve at least 70% within the Quality Indicators and are therefore

considered ‘best practice’ Trusts.

It is recommended that these large scale Establishment Reviews are undertaken every 5 years 2795

in order to provide indicative good practice nursing staffing levels for the activity undertaken and

planned. The Department has recently recommenced the Establishment Reviews and these are

presently underway. The Reviews take into account detailed analysis of the following:

Bed occupancy;

Patient dependency and nursing care needs; 2800

Staff activity and time spent in (i) direct care; (ii) indirect care; (iii) non-nursing (hotel type)

work; and (iv) personal activities;

Nursing quality, that being the standard of care provided by that ward and its measure against

the benchmarked Trusts;

Time out, ie sickness, annual leave, maternity etc; 2805

The actual establishment that is in place, including numbers of nurses and skill mix.

From this, an accurate recommendation is made of the nursing establishment required to care

for patients safely and to a high quality on that ward. This includes giving us a recommended

nurse to patient bed ratio. This does benchmark us with the best Trusts in the UK, but will not


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necessarily provide us with the information benchmarked against the Channel Islands. We are not 2810

aware that the Channel Islands have done similar work or have comprehensively assessed their

nursing needs. It is important to note here that the nursing profession and the experts on nursing

establishments do not believe that nurse to bed ratio figures are useful or accurate as far as

matching nursing establishments with patients’ needs. It is a crude and simple measure that does

not give the true picture because the critical measure is how dependent and how much care the 2815

patient in the bed requires. The bed numbers have no relevance in this.

Once the 2013 Establishment Review has been completed, I will be in a position to provide

you with the recommended outcomes.

If, in the meantime, you have any questions or would like to discuss this further, the Chief

Nurse would be more than happy to meet with you to explain the work that is being undertaken. 2820

Sudden or unexpected deaths

Breakdown of figures


Pursuant to his response to Written Question 30 on 11th June 2013, how many sudden or

unexpected deaths occurred, broken down by (a) day of week (b) speciality and (c) length of

stay in hospital? 2825

Answer:

(a) Sudden or unexpected deaths by day of the week:

Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday

14 11 8 8 4 10 12

2830

(b) Sudden or unexpected deaths by speciality/Division:

Surgical Medical Women, Children &

Outpatients

41

*included 13 deaths in

A&E attributable to

Cardiac Arrest or RTA

23 3

(c) It is not possible, within the time allowed, to provide the length of stay for each patient

where sudden or unexpected death was reported within the incident reporting system without 2835

detailed analysis. This would require an in-depth analysis of each patient’s case record. If required,

this information can be provided at a later date, but at this moment it would mean taking an

excessive amount of time from clinical work commitments of individuals.

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

Extent of DoH conformity

46. The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Beecroft) to ask the Minister for Health: 2840

To what extent his Department conforms to the obligations placed on it under the International

Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights 1966 when forming policy and setting

budgets?

Answer: For the information of the Hon. Members, Article 12 of the Convention relates to the

provision of health care and states:

‘1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone to the enjoyment of the highest attainable

standard of physical and mental health. 2845

2. The steps to be taken by the States Parties to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall

include those necessary for:


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(a) The provision for the reduction of the stillbirth-rate and of infant mortality and for the healthy development of the

child;

(b) The improvement of all aspects of environmental and industrial hygiene; 2850

(c) The prevention, treatment and control of epidemic, endemic, occupational and other diseases;

(d) The creation of conditions which would assure to all medical service and medical attention in the event of

sickness.’

We conform with these obligations through the delivery of the objectives of our Strategy For 2855

Health Services. To summarise these objectives, I quote from Page 2 of the Strategy – the

Introduction – which re-states the objectives of the 2003 Strategy as:

‘1. To achieve a reduction in premature mortality.

2. To provide the best life chances for children and young people of the Island. 2860

3. To promote independence and increase disability-free years for adults.

4. To ensure that access to services is based on need and equity.

5. To improve the mental health of the population of the Island.

6. To protect the health of the population and to minimise the impact of adverse factors on health.’

NHS dental service

Missed appointments


How many missed NHS dental appointments there were in each month of the past two years for

which figures are available?





been compiled.

2870

Deferred Answer (August 2013): In answer to the Hon. Member’s Question, I would first like

to point out that NHS Dental Services are provided both within the Department-run Salaried

Dental Service and by way of contractual arrangements with independent General Dental

Practitioners.

With regard to the Salaried Dental Service, which includes the Community Dental Service 2875

which deals with vulnerable patients, the information is recorded manually on a daily or weekly

basis by individuals, but not collated on a regular basis. Individual patient records, however, do

contain a reference to any missed appointments.

An exercise has been undertaken to identify the numbers of missed appointments on a monthly

basis for the period 01/06/11 to 30/06/13. This exercise has produced the following information: 2880

Missed Dental Appointments in Salaried and Community Dental Service in June 2011 to

June 2013

Month Total

Jun-11 125

Jul-11 146

Aug-11 175

Sep-11 140

Oct-11 121

Nov-11 141

Dec-11 95

Jan-12 117

Feb-12 97

Mar-12 132

Apr-12 138

May-12 152

Jun-12 174


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Jul-12 136

Aug-12 128

Sep-12 88

Oct-12 118

Nov-12 140

Dec-12 96

Jan-13 96

Feb-13 108

Mar-13 84

Apr-13 97

May-13 40

Jun-13 25

Following the introduction in May 2013 of a new dental software system, it will in future be

possible to routinely report on activity within the Salaried and Community Dental Services which

will include the number of missed appointments.

With regard to General Dental Providers (GDP’s) providing a NHS Dental Service, I can

advise that they are all independent contractors from whom the Department commissions a

service. They operate as independent businesses and their contractual arrangements do not include

a responsibility to collate or submit any information regarding missed appointments; that is a

matter for them to manage. However, the Department, in response to the Hon. Member’s

Question, sought information from the GDPs in an attempt to establish the level of missed

appointments.

In general terms, practitioners are not in a position to supply the information due to the

workload this would involve for their practice staff and, in addition, it is important to note that

each dental practice may also carry out an element of private dentistry and thus any figures that

they may be able to provide may not distinguish between NHS and private patients.

From the limited information that has been provided to the Department, I regret that it is not

possible to establish with any degree of accuracy what the missed appointment rate is across dental

services undertaken by the GDPs.

Nurses

Headcount and full-time equivalent figures


How many (a) headcount and (b) full time equivalent nurses, excluding midwives and health

visiting staff, there were in the NHS in each year since 2006?

Answer: The information requested is tabulated below: 2885

Date Number of

Posts

FTE

June 2013 813 682.53

June 2012 810 679.18

June 2011 803 678.08

June 2010 813 683.31

June 2009 816 679.48

June 2008 796 673.20

June 2007 339* 661.35

June 2006 344* 667.99

*In 2006 and 2007 the positions were not held on Oracle as one position for one FTE so one position

could have an FTE of 20.7. This was changed in 2008.

These figures do not include Nurses in Mental Health or Social Care as through the period

requested there were various changes to the Departments and this would make the figures 2890

incomparable.


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HIV treatment

Expenditure incurred


What expenditure the NHS incurred on average on the treatment and care of a patient with

HIV in each of the first five years from diagnosis; and what the total NHS expenditure was on

HIV treatment in each of the past five years?




supply the Written Answer as quickly as possible and circulate it to Members as soon as it has 2895

been compiled.

Deferred Answer (August 2013): The Director of Public Health has confirmed that it is

difficult to calculate the actual costs of treating HIV patients which is why we have only provided

the overall costs as listed below. 2900

The on-Island treatment costs per year – the costs of medication supplied for all patients - are

detailed below. The costs of acute care medication are available electronically for only the last

three years.

Financial Year 2008-09 Primary Care £688.61 2905

Acute Care – Costs not available

Financial Year 2009-10 Primary Care £1,865.57

Acute Care – Costs not available


Acute Care £114,010.64 2910

Financial Year 2011-12 Primary Care £936.20

Acute Care £105,791.28


Acute Care £101,506.67

Orthopaedics and rheumatology

Times from referral to treatment


What proportion of (a) admitted and (b) non-admitted patients were treated within (i) six

months (ii) 12 months and (iii) 18 months following GP referral in each month since 2006 in

the (1) orthopaedic and (2) rheumatology speciality; and what the (A) median and (B) mean

length of time from referral to treatment was for a patient in the (I) orthopaedic and (II)

rheumatology speciality in each month since 2006?





been compiled.

2920

Deferred Answer (August 2013): You will notice there is a drop in the mean and median wait

for both Orthopaedic and Rheumatology Outpatients in 2008. Whilst we have checked the figures

for this period and they are accurate, the anomaly may be due to the changeover of our patient

administration system in late 2007 which affected our data quality for some time.

Please note that the In-patient data starts from 2008 not 2006, as our previous patient 2925

administration system did not enable this record to be stored and enable the calculation of the wait

time.

As there are so few Rheumatology inpatients during this period we have aggregated the

number into one total.


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_________________________________________________________________

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Hip and knee replacements

Figures since 2006


How many (a) primary total hip replacements; (b) revision total hip replacements; (c) primary

total knee replacements; and (d) revision total knee replacements there have been in the NHS

in each year since 2006?

Answer: Collecting this information to provide a comprehensive response will involve 2930

harnessing resources from many different areas across the Health Service, involving many



been compiled.

Agency staff and locums

Cost


How much was spent on (a) agency nurses (b) locum doctors and consultants and (c) other

agency staff by the NHS in each year from 2006-07; and how much was spent on equivalent

internal staff?

Answer: The information requested is tabulated below:- 2935

Analysis of agency costs against equivalent internal staff

The information requested for 2006-2007 is unavailable due to the Government accounting

system changing in that financial year.

Operations

Cancellations


How many patients have had operations cancelled within (i) one week; and (ii) one month of

the scheduled date in the last 12 months?



different staff and it will therefore take several weeks to prepare the answer to this question. I will 2940


been compiled.

Deferred Answer (August 2013): From 1st July 2012 to 30th June 2013, there have been

1,381 cancelled NHS operations at Noble’s Hospital. 2945

Of these, (i) 562 were cancelled within one week of the scheduled date and (ii) 563 were

Category

Sum of 2007 / 2008

Sum of 2008 / 2009

Sum of 2009 / 2010

Sum of 2010 / 2011

Sum of 2011 / 2012

Sum of 2012 / 2013

Nursing a) Agency Nurses 281,912.08 99,274.75 116,067.28 87,952.02 183,643.87 247,406.14 Equivalent internal staff: 26,199,598.25 34,008,890.20 30,128,224.68 29,535,410.36 35,672,650.87 36,099,996.41

Nursing Total 26,481,510.33 34,108,164.95 30,244,291.96 29,623,362.38 35,856,294.74 36,347,402.55 Medical b) Locum Drs and Consultants 833,111.20 2,338,645.45 2,956,779.40 3,445,653.00 3,575,074.58 3,080,263.41

Equivalent internal staff:

15,200,067.62 14,811,670.28 15,328,197.24 17,088,383.97 16,805,363.56 18,852,334.97 Medical Total 16,033,178.82 17,150,315.73 18,284,976.64 20,534,036.97 20,380,438.14 21,932,598.38 Other c) Other Agency Staff (excl Nurse and Medical) 1,589,940.55 2,304,765.27 2,097,257.09 1,550,346.31 1,155,185.05 1,212,678.00

Equivalent internal staff:

28,820,066.08 31,564,371.32 32,648,489.76 29,685,462.83 25,279,148.21 25,098,185.94 Other Total 30,410,006.63 33,869,136.59 34,745,746.85 31,235,809.14 26,434,333.26 26,310,863.94 Grand Total 72,924,695.78 85,127,617.27 83,275,015.45 81,393,208.49 82,671,066.14 84,590,864.87


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cancelled within one month of the scheduled date.

Of the 1,381 cancelled operations, 729 were cancelled by the Hospital for various reasons.

These reasons include: the patient is not medically fit for the procedure; we are awaiting results;

there is insufficient time in Theatre; or even that there is not a suitable bed available because of 2950

emergency admissions to the Hospital.

622 operations were cancelled by the patient and there were 28 patients who ‘Did not attend’.

Two patients did not want their operation.

Air ambulance service

Charitable donations


How much the air ambulance service has received by way of charitable donations in each of

the last five years; and to what extent this is subject to independent audit?

Answer: The information requested is tabulated below:-

2955

Air Ambulance summary of charitable donations 08/09 to 12/13.

TOTAL 08/09 31,100.06

TOTAL 09/10 0.00

TOTAL 10/11 0.00

TOTAL 11/12 43,885.20

TOTAL 12/13 6,843.56

Grand Total 81,828.82

In relation to the second part of the Question, all financial transactions within the Department

are open to independent audit either by the Internal Audit Section of the Treasury or the

Government external auditors. 2960

Breast cancer

Numbers diagnosed

55. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask the Minister for Health:

How many breast cancers, broken down by type, were diagnosed in (a) 2012-13 and (b) 2011-

12?

Answer: From January to December 2011 there were 58 New Breast Cancers diagnosed.

From January to December 2012 there were 80 New Breast Cancers diagnosed.

From January to June 2013, there have been 42 New Breast Cancers diagnosed.

To break down the types of cancer identified would be extremely time- consuming and would

result in a complicated answer which would also have to consider staging of disease within the 2965

type etc. We would consider this an extremely time-consuming piece of work for the benefit

gained, however, we have listed below the procedures that have been undertaken since

Miss Bello’s commencement in post, in the hope that this might be useful to the Member.

Mastectomy (with or without Axillary clearance) 14 2970

Mastectomy with sentinel lymph node biopsy 33

Wide local excision, with or without sentinel node biopsy 97

Immediate Breast reconstruction with tissue expanders 18

Delayed Breast reconstruction 08

Lipofillings 16 2975

Fibroadenoma, skin lesion & duct excisions 22


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Wire guided biopsies 23

Skin sparing mastectomy 13

Latissimus dorsi breast reconstruction 10

Mammoplasty 38 2980

Liposuction for gynaecomastia 04

Breast cancer

Hormone receptor test

56. The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Cannell) to ask the Minister for Health:

What progress has been made to establish the cause of the failure of the hormone receptor

tests in respect of breast cancer?

Answer: As stated to the House on 29th January 2013, in response to the Hon. Member’s

Question on this topic, the matter is currently the subject of legal advice and I can provide no more

information at this stage.

INFRASTRUCTURE

Local authorities

Review of role and functions; modernisation agenda

57. The Hon. Member for Douglas West (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

When the Department will publish its (a) review of the role and functions of local authorities

and (b) modernisation agenda to ensure that local authorities are well positioned to play a

significant role in future service delivery to local communities?

Answer: The Department of Infrastructure plays a key role as the interface between the 2985

Island’s Local Authorities and Central Government. This role was originally carried out by the

former DoLGE (Department of Local Government and the Environment) prior to the

transformation of Government in April, 2010. During this period a number of reviews of Local

Government were undertaken, the last being the Rimmington Report on the Structure of Local

Government in 2004, which was withdrawn in December 2005, which favoured a four plus 2990

Douglas model. None of the reviews were able to deliver root and branch change to the structure

and functions of Local Authorities and so the number of Local Authorities in the Isle of Man has

remained fairly static for over 100 years.

The recent review of Scope of Government which concluded in 2012 (and which revisited

earlier recommendations from the Scope Review of 2006) has endorsed the need to look at the 2995

structure and functions of Local Authorities once again. The Council of Ministers’ Response to

Scope published in January 2013 made two recommendations:

Working in partnership with Local Authorities, the Department of Infrastructure and the

Department of Social Care will identify services suitable for delivery through a revised Local

Authority structure and review how services can be best funded in the future. 3000

The Council of Ministers will set out proposals for reform of the two biggest areas of

expenditure and commonality in Local Authorities, which are housing and waste collection and

disposal activities and report to Tynwald by Autumn 2013.

It is clear from these recommendations that work to review the role and functions of Local

Authorities with a view to providing a more modern and sustainable approach to future service 3005

delivery cannot be done in isolation. The Department recognised this, following an extensive

round of consultations, workshops and one to one engagements led by the DOI Member for Local

Authorities, Richard Ronan, MHK in 2012. Mr Ronan reported his findings to Council in

December 2012 and with Council’s support has since been actively engaged through his work in

the Department of Social Care, DOI and through the Business Change Steering Group, in bringing 3010

all the strands of work taking place across Government into one reporting structure. There has

been significant engagement with Local Authorities by the Department of Social Care during the


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review of housing need and future provision of this service.

The Department is committed to progressing the Local Authority modernisation agenda in

partnership with other service areas and the Local Authorities themselves. However, the 3015

Department is not intending to provide a separate report into the role and functions of Local

Authorities as it is closely linked to the work being carried out through the housing review and the

review of Waste Services which are expected to report to Tynwald in autumn. Similarly all

Government Departments including Infrastructure are reviewing their service areas against

alternative means of service delivery models. This will potential identify those services currently 3020

carried out by Central Government which may be suitable for devolving to Local Authorities if an

effective and efficient delivery mechanism can be established at community level.

SOCIAL CARE

Looked-after children

Numbers of children and homes; age span of children


How many homes have been operated by the Department of Social Care, or under contract, for

looked-after children over 12 years old; how many looked-after children over 12 years old

were in them; what the age span was of looked-after children in these homes; and how many of

these looked-after children were over 15 years of age, in each year since 2004?

Answer: The Children and Families division of the Department of Social Care (formerly the

DHS) does not have statistics back to 2004, any statistics available would be from the introduction

of the computer system for managing the divisions caseload in 2010. 3025

We do not contract homes specifically for over-12s or over-15s, so we do not keep information

in this format. We contract placements based on need/demand irrespective of age. Also it is not a

static population due to care planning – moving on returning home etc. Since the Court Of Inquiry

there has been a concerted shift to foster care and reduced reliance on residential care.

The providers have changed over that time period and now we only contract from two 3030

providers. We can state the current position which is that:

34% [38 children] of our Looked After Children (LAC) are aged 10-15 years.

54% [51] of all LAC [up to age 18] are in residential – usually the older age group but not

exclusively.

We have reduced the residential provision and are on target to have closed three homes - across 3035

both current providers - by the end of this financial year.

Inspection of Children’s Services

Terms of reference; submissions

59. The Hon. Member for Garff (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Social Care:

If he will publish at the July sitting of Tynwald the full terms of reference of the inspection of

Children’s Services by the Scottish Government’s Care Inspectorate; and whether Tynwald

Committees, public bodies and members of the public will be able to make submissions to the

Scottish Government’s Care Inspectorate?

Answer: The agreed scope of the Inspection of Children’s Services is below for Members’

information.

The Inspectors will determine what information they require to support the inspection process,

people will not be able to put in submission as such, but included in the areas of focus for the 3040

inspection will be political and operational governance and partnerships so it is likely that they

will want to seek the views of politicians whose Departments are involved in providing children’s’

services, partners who are contracted to provide services and the children and families who we

provide services to.

3045


_________________________________________________________________

1620 T130

Isle of Man Children’s Services Inspection 2013

Confirmation of Dates

Week commencing

July 1st Orientation, document reading and scoping

Joan and Trish 2 days on island 3050

September 23rd Reviewing practice through case file reading

Full team on island

October 7th Core and scoped activities

Full team on island

October 14 Feedback – Friday 3055

Joan, Trish and Jacquie Pepper on island one day

Other activities/feedback presentations to be arranged as required.

Team composition 3060

Joan Lafferty Lead

Trish Gillespie Deputy

Emma McWilliam

Hugh Mackintosh

Alasdair Dawson 3065

Jacqui Rennie

Chris Lumb

The focus of the inspection will be to examine practice towards vulnerable children

particularly looked after children, children in need, children either currently or previously subject 3070

to child protection planning and children affected by disability. The inspection will also look at

impact on staff, strategic planning for children, partnership working and leadership.

The inspection will be carried out using the Care Inspectorate draft Quality Indicators (QI)

‘How well are we improving the lives of children and young people?’

The following QIs will be evaluated on a six point scale: 3075

2.1 Impact on children and young people

2.2 Impact on families

3.1 Impact on staff

3080

5.1 Providing help and support at an early stage

5.2 Assessing and responding to risks and needs

5.3 Planning for individual children and young people

5.4 Involving children, young people and families

3085

6.2 Planning and improving services

9.4 Leadership of improvement and change

Evaluative comments will be reported on and feedback back given on QIs 3090

9.1 Vision, values, and aims

9.2 Leadership of strategy and direction including partnership working

9.3 Leadership of people and

any other QI scoped into the inspection following discussion.

3095

A Pre Inspection Return (PIR) of information required should be returned on or around week

beginning 8th July 2013. The list of children section was received while the inspectors visited the

Island.

Week 1 -- Reviewing practice through case file reading 3100

Records for sixty selected children will be reviewed by the Inspection Team.

Selection has been undertaken by the inspection lead.

Records to be made available

3105

Education including pre school


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1621 T130

Educational psychologist

Social Care

Health visitor or school nurse

Police 3110

Foster carer

Care categories and sample size

Children who are the subject of a child protection plan on the due date

Children who have previously been the subject of a child protection plan in the year 3115

preceding the due date but are no longer

Looked After children (S31)

Accommodated children (S25)

Children in need

Children affected by disability (social care identification) less than 75 nights respite 3120

Children affected by disability (social care identification) more than 75 nights respite

Children affected by disability (education identification)

Week 2

Activities will include and confirmation of the detail will be provided first week in August: 3125

A staff survey will be provided by the inspectors which you will arrange to be distributed

and analysed through survey monkey

Team around the child focus groups for ten children

Meetings with parents and children

Staff and manager focus groups 3130

Thematic groups

Week 3

Initial findings will be provided at the end of the week (Friday).

WATER AND SEWERAGE AUTHORITY

Meary Veg

Projected average daily flow from population equivalent of 64,000

60. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chairman of the Water and Sewerage

Authority:

What the projected average daily flow, in cubic metres per day, was of sewage for treatment at

Meary Veg from a population equivalent of 64,000; and what the average daily flow received

at Meary Veg was for each year 2006-12?

Answer: The design average daily flow for Phase 1 of Meary Veg is 20,214 m3 per day. The 3135

design peak flow is 37,910 m3 per day.

The actual average daily flows arriving at Meary Veg from 2006 to 2012 are:

2006 23,493 m3 per day

2007 24,630 m3 per day

2008 31,562 m3 per day

2009 30,521 m3 per day

2010 28,082 m3 per day

2011 28,301 m3 per day

2012 32,904 m3 per day


_________________________________________________________________

1622 T130

Meary Veg

Projected average daily flow

61. The Hon. Member for Onchan (Mr Karran) to ask the Chairman of the Water and Sewerage

Authority:

What the projected average daily flow, in cubic metres per day, was of sewage for treatment at

Meary Veg for each year between 2006 and 2012; and what the average daily flow received at

Meary Veg was for each year of those years?

Answer: The design for Phase 1 of the Meary Veg Sewage Treatment Works did not project

the yearly increase in average daily flow of sewage into the works over the period from 2006 to

2012. 3140

The design average daily flow for Phase 1 of Meary Veg is 20,214 m3 per day. The design

peak flow is 37,910 m3 per day.

The actual average daily flows arriving at Meary Veg from 2006 to 2012 are:

2006 23,493 m3 per day

2007 24,630 m3 per day

2008 31,562 m3 per day

2009 30,521 m3 per day

2010 28,082 m3 per day

2011 28,301 m3 per day

2012 32,904 m3 per day

Procedural

The President: The Court will now adjourn, and the adjournment will be until 2.30 p.m., Hon.

Members. 3145




_________________________________________________________________

1623 T130

Announcement of Royal Assent

The President: Fastyr mie, Hon. Members.

Members: Fastyr mie, Madam President

The President: Please be seated. 3150

I can announce that Royal Assent has been given to the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 2013 and

the Weeds (Amendment) Act 2013.

Matter of Urgent Public Importance

Motion of no confidence in the Minister for Health

Motion failed

The President: Hon. Members, Mrs Beecroft has written to me, under Standing Order 2.8(1),

indicating that she wishes to move a motion on a Matter of Urgent Public Importance, as follows:

That this Court has no confidence in the Minister for Health.

Does she have four supporters who will need to rise in their places to indicate their support, 3155

Hon. Members? Can you stay up, please, so I can get a count properly?

Without the requisite four Members standing, Hon. Members, the motion cannot proceed.

Orders of the Day

Scope of Government

Statement by the Chief Minister

The President: We turn then, Hon. Members, to our Order Paper.

I call on the Chief Minister to make a Statement at Item 3.

3160

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Madam President, when this Hon. Court approved the

recommendations of the Scope of Government Report in January of this year, I promised to

provide regular updates, which is the purpose of this Statement today.

It is important for us all to remember that Tynwald endorsed the recommendations because

Hon. Members had the wisdom to recognise that Government must be smaller, simpler and less 3165

bureaucratic and must deliver value for money for the taxpayer.

The Report requires Government to undertake a robust self-examination and to make

pragmatic and well researched decisions. It is not an easy process and I can report there has been

much considerable action so far, but there is still much more to achieve. I would urge all Hon.

Members to consider how they can help to deliver the efficiencies Government needs. 3170

As Members will be aware, one of the immediate actions from the Report was

recommendation 2, which states:

‘The Council of Ministers will require all Departments, Statutory Boards and Offices to review all service delivery

functions by 31 December 2013, looking at all options for alternative means of service delivery and proposing suitable

options after due consideration of a sound business case and the needs of the people they serve.’

I would like to start by explaining the process, which started following this Court’s decision in

January. The Business Change Steering Group was established under the chairmanship of the

Treasury Minister and includes Mr Richard Ronan MHK and Mr Tony Wild MLC. Their remit 3175


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1624 T130

was to oversee the review process and to provide guidance and feedback on the outcomes of the

process.

The review process comprises three stages. The first stage of the review gathers in-depth

information about the service and considers whether it is possible for the service to be delivered by

alternative means. The preferred option or options are identified and the information provided to 3180

the Business Change Steering Group to review and approve.

If the decision at this stage is that the service should remain in Government, the expectation is

that the information collected will be used to set out a plan for improving the efficiency of that

service. If the report identifies that it is feasible to deliver a service by alternative means, then the

Department must develop this detailed business case to fully support the proposal. 3185

If this is subsequently approved by the Business Change Steering Group, the third stage is for

the Council of Ministers and, if appropriate, Tynwald to approve the recommendation. The

implementation of the agreed changes is, in general, the responsibility of the Departments, but I

expect the Business Change Steering Group to monitor progress and, in particular, ensure that

benefits are realised. 3190

I should add that where we have identified some early opportunities, work is already underway

to pursue those initiatives. Altogether, Departments have identified some 209 services, which will

be reviewed as part of this process.

The Business Change Steering Group requires Departments to confirm their review plans by

the end of March 2013 and to ensure that the first tranche of high-level option reviews would be 3195

completed by 30th April 2013. They were asked to complete a further tranche of reviews by

30th June, with the remaining service reviews completed by the end of December.

These are ambitious deadlines and to date these reviews have been completed or are currently

being finalised for approximately a quarter of services. It is challenging work and it will need to be

given a high priority in order that the December 2013 deadline is achieved. However, it is also 3200

fully accepted that it is important to ensure that the review work being submitted is thorough, will

stand up to scrutiny and result in robust business cases which deliver real benefits.

Already the reviews have identified a number of potential opportunities for Government to

reduce the scope of its work. Specific examples include examining how the Villa Marina and

Gaiety Theatre could work as a trust or foundation outside of Government; increasing the scope of 3205

the customer first model to centralise first-line help and online payment support; examining

possible corporatisation of the Isle of Man Post Office; reviewing alternative structures for the

delivery of the bus services; and reviewing divisions within the Department of Infrastructure.

Some Departments have already made significant changes. These include the Department of

Education and Children’s work with respect to changes to the service delivery model for 3210

preschools, libraries and higher education funding – in addition, they will be looking at the

provision of the school meals service; and Social Care looking at residential care services and

conducting a housing review; and a reduction of staffing within the Department of Infrastructure’s

direct labour force.

In addition, and following my commitment given to this Hon. Court in March of last year, the 3215

Scope team has reviewed options for mitigating the impact of the MEA debt burden and put

forward a proposal for a consultation looking at a potential amalgamation of the MEA and the

Water and Sewerage Authority. This work is now underway and will be completed as quickly as

possible, given the MEA’s ongoing financial difficulties.

From what I see of the efforts of individual Departments currently undertaking their self- 3220

evaluation, I remain optimistic that the Scope programme can deliver real benefits. The people of

the Isle of Man expect and deserve that we put our full efforts into reaching Government’s

objective of balancing the budget within the timescale set out by my colleague, the Treasury

Minister.

To achieve this, I look to all Departments and Government agencies to seek every opportunity 3225

to create efficiencies, especially those that could generate cross-Department saving through the

centralisation of key support services, expanding on the excellent benefits already delivered

through shared services in finance, estates, HR and procurement. We now look at expanding the

shared services model into areas such as catering, telephony services, vehicle management and

cleaning. 3230

I trust all Departments – and importantly, Hon. Members in this Court – will recognise that

change does not happen without compromise. In order to make the necessary savings, some areas

may be required to cede responsibilities to another, and we will need to make difficult decisions in

the best interest of the Isle of Man as a whole.

The need for collaboration by officers and politicians has never been greater if we are to avoid 3235

any significant reductions to the levels of Government services currently provided. We have


_________________________________________________________________

1625 T130

spoken many times in this Hon. Court of the need to be taking risks to protect or enhance our

economic well-being. Some risks will not pay off and we must be prepared for this. With any

programme of this magnitude there will be risks and potential liabilities, and the Business Change

Steering Group must identify these and work with the appropriate programme teams to ensure that 3240

these are mitigated.

In driving forward these various change projects, we must remain mindful of the impact this

uncertainty has on all staff who currently provide the high-quality services that the public have

come to expect and who may, through no fault of their own, be subjected to changes that will be,

for them, as personally unwelcome as they are unexpected. Liaison with trade unions has become 3245

a key factor in ensuring that any changes are dealt with sympathetically and provide effective

consultation and support.

I have previously stated that I believe we can reposition the manner in which we deliver

Government services to ensure we retain the highest possible standards while living within our

reduced financial means. However, this will take more than a tick-box exercise to complete. It will 3250

take bold and creative thinking, and a greater emphasis on collaboration and new skills.

Madam President, Government services touch the lives of every citizen of the Isle of Man and

we have a responsibility to ensure that changes to means of delivery result in the best possible

outcome. There are promising signs in some areas and I am encouraged by the specific initiatives

that are currently being progressed. However, ‘carry on as we are’ is not an option that we will 3255

have the luxury of adopting. Be assured the Business Change Steering Group will be challenging

that approach and driving forward the review process so that we are able to meet our budget

rebalancing targets and still provide our citizens with the services they need.

Madam President, I will ensure that this Hon. Court receives a further update on this vital work

prior to the year end. 3260

Thank you for the opportunity.

The President: Are there any questions for the Chief Minister on the Statement?

External inspection of Health Services

Statement by the Minister for Health

The President: If not, we move on to Item 4. I call the Minister for Health to make a

Statement. 3265

The Minister for Health (Mr Anderson): Madam President, I am making this Statement in

response to the motion passed in this Hon. Court on 18th June this year in relation to arranging an

independent external inspection of the Health Services.

I am able to report that we have identified a suitable organisation to carry out this inspection. It 3270

is the West Midlands Quality Review Service (WMQRS), which was established in 2009, is part

of the English National Health Service and is based at Sandwell Hospital in West Bromwich. It is

a collaborative venture by the NHS organisations in the West Midlands to improve the quality of

health services by undertaking reviews of quality of clinical services.

Madam President, the West Midlands Quality Review Service has a good record of reviews of 3275

a wide range of local services and has links with clinicians and access to a large pool of trained

reviewers. Perhaps of particular note is that in 2006, when the organisation was called the West

Midlands Peer Review Team, the service identified serious problems at the Mid Staffs Hospital

two years in advance of the emergence of the problems there.

In 2012-13, the WMQRS completed 202 reviews; in 2011-12, 236 reviews, including two 3280

specially commissioned reviews. Reviews undertaken in 2010-11 included critical and urgent care,

and vascular services.

The aim of the review is to: (1) provide an assessment to the Manx public, politicians and the

Isle of Man Health Service itself of the quality of care provided to Manx patients; (2) identify

areas where services are in need of improvement, with special reference to any areas in which 3285

there is an unacceptable risk to patient and/or patient safety; and (3) comment on the sustainability

or otherwise of services currently provided on the Isle of Man.

Concerning timescale, the Department will strive to complete the necessary financial and

contractual arrangements this month, July. I anticipate the preparatory work for the first review

will commence with the planning meeting with WMQRS in September of this year and the arrival 3290

of the review team in November. The review team members include senior clinicians working in


_________________________________________________________________

1626 T130

the NHS hospitals, and require notice, usually at least two months, in order to ensure they are

available.

It is my intention that the first area to be reviewed will be the care of critically ill patients at

Noble’s Hospital, which Hon. Members will recall is the subject of concern of the 10 consultants 3295

who wrote to the Medical Director in October of last year.

Members will also recall that five workstreams were set up as a direct response to the 10

consultants’ letter, plus the outcome of a general consultation with all clinical staff on matters

which concern them. As planned, those workstreams which are looking at the emergency

admissions pathway via A&E, seven-day working, communication, patient safety structures and 3300

systems, and the care of compromised patients, are due to report to myself and the Chief Executive

at the Patient Safety Forum on 16th July, although some of the measures they are identifying are

already being put in place.

The overall cost of WMQRS is expected to be £98,000 a year, although this may fall if, as

sometimes is the case, some or all of the peer review clinicians provide their services free of 3305

charge because their parent hospital regards this activity as an investment in quality assuring their

own services.

In a recent meeting with the Treasury, I indicated as highly likely that the Department, which

will have to find the necessary financial resources from within existing budgets, will seek an FD8

waiver arrangement. 3310

I would also like to remind Hon. Members that it is the intention of the Department for such

external independent reviews to be undertaken in respect of the wider Health Service in the Isle of

Man and not just in Noble’s Hospital. Therefore there will be a rolling programme of reviews,

probably extending over more than one financial year.

At this point, Madam President, it may be helpful if I clarify certain matters concerning the 3315

Quality Care Commission (CQC). I apologise if I am repeating a little bit of what was in my

personal statement this morning.

The Department did use the forerunner organisation of CQC – namely, the Healthcare Quality

Commission – to undertake a review at Noble’s Hospital in 2006. In 2009, the Healthcare

Commission, together with two other inspectorate entities, merged to create the CQC. It was 3320

always understood by me and the Department that the mandate of the CQC, following its creation,

precluded it from assisting the Department.

The CQC’s primary function is the registration and regulation of health and social care services

in England. To that extent, the CQC does not register or regulate such services in the Isle of Man.

The CQC’s statutory functions were primarily set out in the UK Health and Social Care Act 2008 3325

and 2012. Schedule 4 of the 2008 Act sets out the legislative framework about the interaction of

CQC with other authorities. Paragraph 9 of that schedule states that the CQC, if it thinks it

appropriate to do so, may provide advice or assistance to other public authorities in the exercise of

the authorities’ functions. The paragraph goes on to indicate that this includes public authorities in

the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. 3330

The fact that I and others were therefore not correctly advised of the situation concerning CQC

and the Isle of Man is, to say the least, most unfortunate, and to that end a formal investigation by

an officer from outside the Department of Health is taking place to establish how that

circumstance came about.

The Hon. Member for South Douglas, Mrs Beecroft, has received a letter from the current 3335

Chief Executive of the CQC, Mr David Behan, in which he suggests that he had a conversation

with me last year concerning the potential to involve the CQC on the Island. I must repeat, Madam

President, that Mr Behan’s recollection has let him down, as he is a gentleman whom I have never

met and have never had a conversation with. I have already informed the Hon. Members what

actions I have taken in relation to this matter. 3340

I am extremely keen to get underway with the review work and believe it is important to

continue our relationship with the West Midlands Quality Review Service. I am also aware that

the CQC is currently in a state of transition and, as the CQC itself says, is ‘making radical changes

to the way we inspect and regulate health and social care services.’ These changes are currently in

the implementation stage. Therefore, let me make it clear, Madam President, I am happy to 3345

consider CQC as a potential reviewer in the forthcoming stages of our programme.

Madam President, I will, of course, keep Members of this Hon. Court aware of the progress of

West Midlands Quality Review Service’s work, including confirmation of the start date and

timescales for the initial review at Noble’s Hospital.

The Department will publish the WMQRS review reports that follow in their entirety. 3350

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Houghton.


_________________________________________________________________

1627 T130


Madam President, may I ask the Minister if he can explain the difference between what he has 3355

just told us in his Statement this afternoon and what the difference was in what he actually stated

in his personal speech? Can he categorise precisely what the difference is between both

Statements?


The Minister: Madam President, I am happy to do that.

I announced in the speech I made this afternoon the agency we are going to use for the

inspection of Noble’s Hospital, but I also made it very clear that CQC could be used in future, now

we know that regulatorily they can be used in future. But the state of play at the moment with the 3365

CQC is that they are in a state of change and they are not in a position, as they are in a state of

change, to be used at this present minute.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft.

3370


Could the Minister confirm that West Midlands, or WMQRS I think you shortened it to…

Could he confirm that the consultants and senior clinicians at the Hospital have faith in this

organisation, that it is a respected one that will be carrying out this review?

Could he confirm that whilst he said he did not have a conversation with the Chief Executive 3375

of CQC… could he confirm whether or not he actually did approach them and ask them to do this

when he made the Statement saying that he had done so?


3380

The Minister: Madam President, I will deal with the first part: have the clinicians faith in this

organisation? This is a UK organisation that is highly reputable and I am sure the clinicians, when

they realise who it is, will be very pleased that we have secured the services of such an

organisation.

I think the Hon. Member’s second question – did I approach the Chief Executive of the CQC… 3385

Mrs Beecroft: The CQC… Sorry, Madam President, would you like me to repeat my second

question?

The President: If it would assist, yes, please. 3390

Mrs Beecroft: Yes, it was just clarification, because you said that you had not had a

conversation with the Chief Executive of the CQC – which may or may not be correct; we do not

know at this point because the Committee is looking into it – but you have not clarified as to

whether or not you actually asked the CQC themselves if they were able to carry out this review, 3395

because you stated that you had done so in May, regardless of whom you spoke to.

The Minister: Madam President, I reiterate I have never met Mr Behan, I have never spoken

to Mr Behan, and that matter will be considered by the Standards Committee.

In relation to CQC and my approaches to them, my understanding is – and it will come out in 3400

the investigation – they were asked… they were supposed to be asked if their services were

available.

Since the information has come to light that they can technically do the job, we have been in

contact with them, and at some stage in the future they would be able to do work for us. But as I

stated in my Statement, they are currently in a state of change in their organisation, and from what 3405

their remarks say on their website, and I quote:

‘We are making changes to what we do and how to do it.’

And further on it says:

‘The changes have come into effect in National Health Service hospitals and mental health trusts first because we recognise there is an urgent need for more effective inspection and regulation of these services. We will extend and

adapt our approach to other sectors in 2014 and 2015.’


_________________________________________________________________

1628 T130

The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Madam President, can the Minister confirm that the West Midlands inspecting 3410

body will be taking and inviting evidence from patients; and will there be an opportunity for

members of the public, Members of Tynwald and other interested parties outside the Health

Service to in fact give evidence to this body?


The Minister: Madam President, Mr Speaker, I will make sure that facility is available.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle.

3420


The Speaker has nailed a few of my questions. Regarding the external inspection of the health

services by West Midland Quality Review Service, can the Minister advise why it is not

unannounced and if it will cover all areas of Noble’s Hospital with free access whenever they

want? 3425


The Minister: Madam President, the approach of most of these organisations now that do

these reviews requires the full co-operation of the hospitals and the clinicians that they are 3430

working with. So they will come in over a long period of time and go into great detail in the

different areas. That is the way in which they work.

They just do not parachute in and then disappear and leave you with a shopping list. They will

come, they will inspect, they will review, and they will revisit to see that what they have

recommended in a period of time is being implemented. So I think that gives us a great deal of 3435

comfort. They are not just coming in, parachuting in and then walking off and leaving us with a

shopping list. They will be coming back to see what has been recommended has been

implemented or we are moving more towards that implementation.

The other issue the Hon. Member for Middle raised was will they be looking at all aspects of

Noble’s Hospital. They will be looking… there is a very long list and I do not intend to read it out 3440

this afternoon. They will be and the priority will be Noble’s Hospital, but they will be looking at

the whole Health Service in a period of time, and this is likely to take some time.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle? No.

The Hon. Member, Mr Singer. 3445


Just to confirm, as the Speaker said there, that there will be evidence from the public taken. I

think this is extremely important.

Can the Minister confirm that they will be looking and taking evidence from people on the 3450

complaints procedure that is taking place here, and whether they might be offered the chance to

recommend in cases that external investigation of complaints should also be taken, not only on the

Isle of Man so-called independent review committee?

The President: Minister 3455

The Minister: Madam President, one area they will be looking at is the complaints service,

and if there are issues that arise out of that I am sure they will drill down into the detail of that and

I am sure Hon. Members will have the opportunity to give their views to them at the time.

3460


Mr Houghton: Thank you, Madam President, and whilst the Minister is holding the reviews

into various areas of the National Health Service, may I also ask if he will hold an inquiry into the

reasons why a dental officer with the salaried dental service has been suspended for almost 19 3465

months? He has been reinstated recently. He was suspended for no good reason.

The President: Hon. Member, this is stretching a little from the Statement.


_________________________________________________________________

1629 T130

Mr Houghton: The chief executive and Mr Butt – yes, Madam President – have full 3470

knowledge of all this. Will he now proceed to holding a full inquiry as to why this has happened,

costing his Department well over £130,000 when you count locum costs and the cost of the

inquiry, when it was held under a vendetta against that officer?

The President: Minister, do you want to comment? 3475

The Minister: Madam President, I am sure you will not be surprised that I am not prepared to

go into the detail of this case. This (Several Members: Hear, hear.) is not concluded and therefore

I cannot make –

3480

Mr Houghton: Will he hold an inquiry?

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Will the Shirveishagh son Slaynt, the Minister for Health, just explain the 3485

procurement… the way we have come up with this particular organisation, as far as doing this

project?


3490

The Minister: Madam President, the Department went and sought expressions of interest, and

there were two organisations that responded positively, which then subsequently visited the Island

on, I understand, two occasions. I met with the senior leadership team of the Department, and the

recommendation was on hold because the make-up of this individual organisation was under… it

possibly could have changed under the changes under the National Health Service. But once that 3495

was clarified, that they were ready for business and they would be continuing in the format that

they were, they were seen by management to be head and shoulders above the other organisation

and I have complete confidence in that organisation.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. 3500

Mr Ronan: Following on from that question from Mr Karran, would you tell us who the other

organisations were?


The Minister: The other shortlisted organisation was Trent, I believe – an organisation called

Trent – and those two were the two who positively looked for the work from the Department.

There was another Scottish organisation that did not respond when we made our expression of

interest, that we expected to. 3510

The President: Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Can the Shirveishagh son Slaynt inform this Court how did they proceed to

actually advertise there was a potential for this job to come up? 3515


The Minister: I am not sure of the exact detail, but approaches were made to the organisations

that do this sort of work and the three organisations that have responded… and it went down to 3520

two, as I understand it, and it was between those two organisations at the end of the day. But the

organisation we have gone with we believe will give us better value for money.

The President: Mr Singer.

3525

Mr Singer: Could the Hon. Minister tell me what commitment there will be to implement any

recommendations?


3530


_________________________________________________________________

1630 T130

The Minister: That is a very difficult question to answer because a lot… some of the things

that might come out of the recommendations might have resource implications and I cannot give a

commitment unless we have the resources to carry through those recommendations.

Douglas Promenade Improvement Scheme – Phase 1

Expenditure approved

5. The Minister for Infrastructure to move:

That Tynwald approves the Department of Infrastructure incurring expenditure not exceeding

the sum of £1,658,000 in respect of Phase 1, Douglas Promenade Improvement Scheme.

[Ref: Scheme Code G18-050 Item 10 under the heading ‘Department of Infrastructure’ on

page 27 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14 and under the Estimates of Capital Payments 2013-

14 to 2017-18 on page 70 of the 2013-14 Budget.]

The President: We move on, Hon. Members, to Item 5. I call upon the Minister for

Infrastructure to move. 3535

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you.

Phase 1 of the Douglas Promenade Improvement Scheme involves the reconstruction of

carriageways, footways and junctions on the landward side of Douglas promenade on the section

from Peveril Square to the RBS building on Loch Promenade. 3540

It is widely accepted that Douglas promenade has reached the end of its useful life, both in

highway terms and from an aesthetic viewpoint. It has served the capital well for over 70 years

without any major maintenance or refurbishment. In recent years, its condition has deteriorated

and the road surface has become uneven, patched and badly cracked, which has resulted in

severely compromised ride quality and the surface drainage systems are no longer fully effective. 3545

The promenade is often a visitor’s first impression of the Island when they disembark from the

ferries or cruise liners, and currently this impression presents a drab, shabby, tired and

downtrodden image. This area is regarded by many as the gateway to the Island and arguably sets

the tone for the capital and the whole Island.

There is also a strong perception among major business on the Island that the neglected state of 3550

some of the infrastructure in Douglas is acting as a brake on investment. I believe that

improvements to Douglas promenade will reinstate an important primary route to a good standard,

but that this work will also make a material contribution towards reversing the impression of

neglect and may help to promote economic activity beyond the immediate construction jobs that it

will also help preserve. 3555

This first phase of the overall Scheme will help to re-establish the status of the promenade as

the gateway to the capital and the Island. It includes the following features: reconstruction of the

carriageway, using flexible construction designed for current traffic flows; improvements at

Walpole Avenue and Victoria Street junctions; installation of new gullies and kerb drains; safer

and more user-friendly pedestrian crossing point at Victoria Street; improvements at Peveril 3560

Square roundabout; improvements to pedestrian areas around Peveril Square, Walpole Avenue and

Victoria Street; the use of high-quality natural stone materials on the footways and pedestrian

areas; and the relocation of the Jubilee Clock to facilitate Victoria Street junction improvements to

make the area around the clock more accessible, useable and less cluttered.

The main contractor will be the Department’s Operations Division; however, approximately 3565

50% of the labour and plant element of the works will be subcontracted to the private sector. The

Department will be responsible for the production and laying of all tarmac, lining works and the

supply of natural stone paving materials and kerbs. The majority, 80%, of the haulage requirement

for the works will be subcontracted through the Department’s hired haulage framework agreement.

It will also provide a valuable contribution to the Island’s economy through the purchase of 3570

materials through various framework and supply agreements.

The total cost of the Scheme is £1,658,000, including design and project management costs, of

which the construction cost submitted by the preferred contractor – the Department of

Infrastructure Operations Division – is £1,560,908.47.

It is proposed that the works will commence in August of this year, with a 37-week 3575

construction period, meaning that the costs will be spread over the 2013-14 financial years with a


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completion date of May 2014. We had originally intended to start the work after the Manx Grand

Prix and Classic TT; however, the work would then have run into TT 2014 and we prefer to

complete the work in advance of that festival.

The horse tram operations will not be affected by this phase of the works, and a traffic 3580

management plan has been produced to keep traffic flowing for the majority of the project.

Furthermore, there will be no clash between this Scheme and the Town Centre Regeneration

Scheme in Douglas and the reconstruction of Peel Road. The Promenade Scheme will proceed

alongside these other projects without any major traffic impact.

It is therefore important, Hon. Members, that your approval is given to this motion to allow the 3585

Department to carry out these necessary and long overdue highway works without further delay,

and to incur the expenditure which I specify.

Can I also say I am grateful for the public comment which has been received in a positive way

in relation to this matter, and in particular the editorial from the newspaper this week – which

makes a nice change, as far as I am concerned. 3590

I beg to move.


Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. 3595

I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.


I have got a few comments to make on this project, the first one being yes, we need to have it

done. But let’s just rewind 25 years, and Douglas promenade was in pretty much the same state

then. What I have to say is not really to this Minister, as such; it is to previous administrations. I

want it to go on record because, as far as I am concerned, the roadway or the highway of the

promenade is a national disgrace, and it has been a disgusting situation for decades, certainly as 3605

long as I can remember and not without myself and others making heavy representations on and

off with regard to what is going to become of Douglas promenade.

I would say it is not just about ride quality, Minister. The fact is the fabric of the carriageway is

disintegrating. We know there are voids under the carriageway in various areas and that if we do

not do something now, while we have got the chance, then we may well never be able to afford the 3610

cost of what will happen in the future. As I say, Eaghtyrane, I cannot understand, for the life of

me, why it has taken until now to do something. I have been, over the past years, deeply upset with

the non-recognition of an impending disaster that this certainly is.

The Minister has made reference to the fact that this is the gateway to the Island – and it is,

especially for our business community, our visitors, returning visitors, tourists such as we have in 3615

the liner business that we have at the minute, and so on. What I would say to the Minister is as we

are so preoccupied with how the gateway to the Island looks, then we have to link the Lord Street

area into that, whether we like it or not, because that is a huge eyesore, in overview terms, and has

been for years. Everyone who comes off the boat and everyone who comes in from the Airport

invariably goes through that particular area – the Sea Terminal area, Loch Promenade – and it is 3620

seen by all.

He is quite right about the businesses thing, and it may well be putting the brakes on business. I

have no doubt about that whatsoever, because if I was looking to make some inward investment

here, as a business organisation or a large conglomerate, I would think twice at the minute because

the impression given is that we are not bothered, we do not care that much, we are used to 3625

mediocrity – we are used to it and we will just get by. I think we can do far better than that,

promote our image far better and give off an impression that yes, we do care about our place, and

yes, we think we are going places and this is how we explain our enthusiasm for our Island and

our capital and our business centre. It is so important.

I would say to the Minister, while you are looking at Peveril Square – and I have made this call 3630

on numerous occasions before and no-one has been bothered to listen, least of all the previous

Director of Highways down there, Mr Hannay; he knows my views implicitly – please get rid of

the prison railings all around Peveril Square. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I had never seen anything

so dull, drab, uninspiring and underwhelming in all my life when they were put up there all those

years ago. It gives a horrible perception. The same as we had to battle to remove the orange plastic 3635

things round the Quarter Bridge – and thank goodness Minister Gawne had the sense to make that

a priority when he was on the DoI at that time. (A Member: Hear, hear.) What an eyesore! Please,


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1632 T130

Minister, tidy up Peveril Square, get rid of the prison railings there that give off such a negative

impression. Thankfully, Douglas Corporation have had some input by putting planters and stuff on

top. 3640

Let’s have the Sea Terminal cleaned up at the same time. I know there are ideas afoot and

moneys available for some refurbishment there, but that in itself has to come under this spotlight.

Passengers disembarking in our harbour meet a drab quayside – no ‘Welcome to the Isle of Man’

anymore, nothing – and I think it is a shame. They have to walk past, or file past, a concrete and

glass shed that is full of chairs and tables all on top of each other inside, and it just gives… If you 3645

are so worried about the impression, do the simple things that will not cost much – that is my

message to you, Minister – and it would raise the whole standard and the image of the area without

having to do very much. A good clean-up, a lick of paint and, while we are at it, let’s have a look

at the loos in the Sea Terminal. Again, a lick of paint, a clean-up, a re-grout does not cost much –

we will not have to go to the Treasury. And the chairs in the Sea Terminal – stained beyond 3650

recognition in some areas, or they wear. I have made representations. Again, we are looking on the

perception and the imagery of the gateway to the Isle of Man. Simple basic things.

We have become so used to using the facilities, we cannot see the wood for the trees, which is

part of the problem, and it would pay great dividends, actually, to get an outsider to come in, and

say, ‘Right, here’s a clipboard: make a few observations.’ You would get it from a different angle, 3655

and those are the things now that we really need to have a look at, Eaghtyrane. It might sound daft

or naïve, but in the scheme of things, if you have a large cruise ship turn up in the bay with

affluent passengers who are looking for a decent day out in a place steeped in history, then the last

thing you want to see is what I have just described – or a business which is proposing to relocate

here. We need to raise the game, and we can do it without spending a lot of money. 3660

Please take those messages on board, Minister.

With regard to the promenade regeneration, it needs to be done as a matter of urgency – and

Central Promenade and then Queen’s Promenade. Queen’s Promenade is probably worse than the

Loch Promenade is, to be quite honest. In fact, Queen’s Promenade does… Well, this Hon.

Member, anyway… I have to drive on the horse tramlines to get some sort of a decent ride out of 3665

my own car; otherwise, you are going to whack the tracking out and do your suspension a

mischief. That applies, no doubt, to everybody using the promenade, which is one of the main

routes into Douglas to and from work every night.

Do we need the granite quality footpath coverings that the Minister has spoken about? I know

we need to improve the image, but have we gone for a gold-plated job here? Is it essential or a 3670

remedial quality option that… [Inaudible] Would that do, or would it…? I would be interested to

hear what the Minister has got to say about that, because I am interested in cost as well. I realise

this is a big-spend job, but let’s spend wisely and carefully with it.

Certainly, I back the carriageway being done, Eaghtyrane; there is no question of that. There is

not an argument. If we have got some money to spare, that needs doing, Peel Road and a couple of 3675

other areas in Douglas that are underway.

Those are my observations, Eaghtyrane. I am tying him closely to the whole Sea Terminal side

for the Minister’s consideration, and indeed for his senior officer, who is listening to this,

Eaghtyrane, because they need addressing. It would not cost much, but by gum, it would raise the

image that we are all worried about. 3680

The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Madam President, just a few remarks.

I will certainly support this on the basis of the case made by the Minister as being phase 1; and 3685

as phase 1, of course, it has been identified that that particular area, being the gateway to the

Island, should be addressed first. It is the part that certainly visitors see.

But I make the point that, while it is indeed unsightly there, the worst road surface is, in fact, at

the other end of the promenade, at the Summerland end. Notwithstanding that a number of the

potholes were filled the week before TT, which was very good to see, it still unquestionably makes 3690

for the most awful driving experience. It is a road I travel every day, as do thousands of other

vehicle drivers, along a road surface that has deteriorated very, very severely.

So my question, really, is – phase 1 is welcome – what about phase 2, because the people

currently benefiting the most, I think, are the garages who fit replacement tyres for vehicles?

In respect of phase 1 itself, the Minister said that there would be no disturbance to the horse 3695

trams and the alignment of the tracks. My question, really, is what happens in later phases when

the tracks are to be realigned? Will this require revisiting the work that is being done now in


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phase 1 at that time, or is there some way that there should be some co-ordination being taken just

now to give allowance for later phases?

One other feature… while it is not clear in the diagram that accompanied the order, certainly in 3700

the presentation there was some tree planting being shown on the new paved area next to the

relocated clock tower, and I wonder whether this represents a welcome change in policy, because I

know previous Departments were very reluctant to see tree-planting along that area for reasons of

disturbance by tree roots to paved surfaces. While that is an understandable concern, how is that

now being addressed? Or is there some technical engineering solution that has been found to bring 3705

about a change in policy?

The President: The Hon. Member for Douglas West, Mr Thomas.


Minister, the promenade needs improving – both the Hon. Members who have resumed their

seats have made that point very clearly – but every pound borrowed from the capital account needs

to be spent ever so wisely, given that both the capital account balance is forecast to fall to

£1 million by 2015 – and we even learned from the Chief Minister this morning that the Nunnery

estate might be sold to raise capital we might need in the immediate future – and secondly, that the 3715

temporary 0% interest charge on internal Government borrowings in recent years will be ended in

coming years. So every pound we spend on capital needs to be considered very wisely.

We are told that the overall Promenade Scheme will cost at least £17 million in the Pink Book.

Do we, or will we, have £17 million; and if we do not, is this £1.7 million being spent in the right

place on the promenade? Has it been given the correct priority; and if so, have we got details of 3720

that? For instance, Minister, can you provide us with a breakdown of the actual budget figures for

the whole Scheme and which elements are prioritised and in which order they will happen and for

what reason?

Perhaps just focusing on the horse trams, because it was raised by the Speaker, how much will

it cost to take up and put down the horse tram? In the consultation in 2010-11, figures of 3725

£3 million to £5 million were mentioned. Is it sensible to use all the money from selling the

Nunnery estate, or nearly all of it, to pay for taking up and putting down the horse trams?

(Interjection).

One reason offered to us for going ahead with this particular Scheme is that it will not be

affected by decisions still to be taken. I beg, Minister, to raise the question, as others have begun 3730

to do, that this might not necessarily be the case. For instance, where is the bus station to be

located? Might this decision not affect how Peveril Street and Peveril Square be paved and laid

out?

The planning application for this phase included redevelopment of the Sea Terminal car park in

a very attractive way, as Mr Henderson wants it, and also the area around it. Is that going to 3735

happen soon? Eventually? Will we have enough money?

Will Parade Street, next door, be used for a multi-storey car park – one of the purposes for

which it was purchased in 2006 for £8 million? If only we had that money now! Might this use as

a car park cause what is proposed to be done to be undone or altered later; and if so, are we acting

rationally? 3740

I will just quote one document from the Department of Infrastructure, which is the October

2012 final version of its ‘Douglas Master Plan – Interim Planning Guidance for Key Town Centre

Sites’, and this says in one place that there is:

‘Opportunity to investigate the changing of the priority of the existing main Port access away from the Peveril Square roundabout (which must be retained as a readily available alternative access particularly for emergency access.’

It then says:

‘A new main access to the marshalling area would be created via Parade Street roundabout.’

So it seems to me that even in October 2012 a possibility was raised that we might have to 3745

revisit traffic management and road layout and that sort of thing. So things could easily change

around the site that we are considering spending £1.7 million on, in my view. We might not need

the dual carriageway that we have at the moment in that particular place if we do not have the

harbour access perhaps – in which case, we might not need the staggered pedestrian crossing that

necessitates the railings mentioned by Mr Henderson that make the place look ugly. 3750

I quote from that same document:


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‘Currently the road layout and traffic flows through and between Middlemarch, Lord Street and Parade Street sites play a key role in the traffic management of Douglas and access to the Port facilities; however they also currently form

barriers to the effective interaction of the sites. Challenge is to provide/improve means of providing pedestrian access

between the various sites whilst supporting the flow of traffic…’

So things could change.

In summary, I beg to move the adjournment of this debate sine die, because perhaps even as

soon as October, or some other time in the autumn, we will have a more complete picture about all

of these issues and do we need to really get it ahead of next year’s TT when there are all these 3755

profound issues about the bus station, about the use of our last millions in the capital account.

Of course I fully support the redevelopment of Douglas promenade, as everybody else who has

spoken here does, but not in a piecemeal way. I would prefer if, in October, November or

December, this Court could have a £17-million three, four or five-year plan for the whole of the

redevelopment of the site – we do not end up with a police station that might be knocked down in 3760

that area, a car park that the council wanted and believed it was going to go ahead but perhaps will

not go ahead now, and so on and so on.

This town needs good planning and it needs integrated joined-up use of every last pound in the

capital account and every amount of money that we can borrow, and for that purpose I think three

or four months of delay, or perhaps longer, is a price worth paying. 3765

Thank you.



I would congratulate the Member who has just resumed his seat for his first speech to the

Court. (Interjections)

I am quite taken aback a little bit by the proposed deferring amendment there, but for the sake

of debate I am quite happy to second it to see how it is tested, because I think you need to test that,

especially if you are a Douglas Member as well and you do have concerns. I have seen the 3775

concerns that you have had when you were a member of the council.

The other issue I have had too is I was a little bit disappointed with the Minister, in a similar

sort of vein to the Member, Mr Thomas, regarding policy. One step starts this journey, and once

we have started this journey, where are we going? Where are we going with the future of the

trams? Where is that going to be in this first section? I know there was an indication some time 3780

ago to put the hub into Regent Street and I think that has gone. Single track is probably an issue

too, regarding will the trams be there: (a) will the trams be owned by us; (b) will the council want

to give them away? These are the sorts of questions, Madam President, I think should have been

asked in the total debate there itself as well.

The other concerns I have, different to what Mr Henderson has, regarding the quality of 3785

material… I do not have much concern about that, because I think sometimes you forget that the

maintenance issues for the future can cost you quite a lot of money, and by not using a quality

material at the beginning of a Scheme… (Interjection)

The President: Would you allow me to take the decisions, please, Hon. Member? 3790

Hon. Member, you have seconded the adjournment debate, I understand; therefore, we are now

concentrating on the question of adjournment.


3795

The President: We are also subject to the Five-Minute Rule.

Mr Quirk: The trouble is when you are on the track and you get going, it is a long way.

The President: Hon. Member, if the adjournment debate does not succeed, you can then come 3800

back and speak to the motion.

Mr Quirk: All I can say then, Madam President, is I think there needs to be a bit more

information, a bit more policy on it. The town is going to be the major area, whether we like it or

not. Where we live on the Island does not make any difference; that is the main focal point for 3805

anyone who comes to the Island. I think we have to have the Strategic Plan there. We have not had

the Strategic Plan reviewed. We have not had the Eastern Plan even started. So there are a lot of

balls in the air which have not been punctured yet.


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1635 T130

I think, even if we have… I cannot remember what the Hon. Member said now with the

deferment. Did he indicate a month, or…? 3810

A Member: No, he said sine die.

The President: Sine die.

3815

Mr Quirk: Sine die on that. Well, I am still happy to second that, Minister, because at the end

of the day, debate happens in the particular Court, and if Members do have concerns – and I have

concerns as well regarding the Scheme… We will wait to see what happens.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Braidwood. 3820

Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President.

I stand to oppose the adjournment. I have listened to what the Hon. Member for West Douglas

has said, and also his seconder, the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. If we adjourn sine die,

we will not be coming back. Three or four months… We are already… April, May, June – three 3825

months.

We have a capital programme. It has been a reduced capital programme, Madam President.

The amount of money has been allowed for, for this capital Scheme. The whole Scheme for the

promenade – which, as has already been mentioned, is already in the Pink Book – is for

£17,625,000 for development of the whole promenade. If this amount of capital is not spent, as far 3830

as Treasury is concerned it will be spent somewhere else in the capital programme to bring on

other schemes. Because we have got that reduced capital we cannot allow any delay in schemes

coming forward to this Hon. Court.

So I hope, Madam President, that the Members of this Court will oppose the adjournment.

3835


Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have to say that it horrifies me that the Treasury Member… that the

worth of the project is not as important as the capital programme is (A Member: Hear, hear.) for

the lucky few who will get the contract as far as this issue is concerned. 3840

I really think we need to look at the value for money. The one issue that we need to start

getting, as taxpayers, is we need to have the spend in the pound in our own pocket as the same as

the pound as far as Government is concerned, and we do it as wisely.

I have to say, whether it is sine die or what it is, the situation is… where is the Strategic Plan?

(A Member: Yes.) Tell me where the Strategic Plan is. I heard from the Member before saying 3845

about one step on the start of a journey, but where is it going? Is this the road to nowhere?

The point is what we need to do… Haven’t we got enough white elephants coming home to

roost with the way… (Laughter) And I meant they come home to roost, because the fact is the next

generation is going to have to pay for it.

The situation is I think the Hon. Member for West Douglas has just come back from the 3850

hoardings, as far as the general public are concerned, (Interjection) and they are actually…

(Interjection) Actually, they are concerned about the issue of value for money.

What I said before… What I put on my thing was… and it is as valid for the adjournment as it

is for the debate, and what is the situation… Haven’t we learned anything, Members? We went

along with the MEA, IRIS, all these other schemes where they never thought out the long-term 3855

plan. It might not be Mr Braidwood who is successful in the executive… [Inaudible] as far as

executive Government is concerned, as far as the capital project. What the people outside want to

know is is it value for money and is it prioritised.

We had Hon. Members in here, just a minute ago, saying that the priority was at the other end

of the promenade, as far as the Queen’s Promenade was concerned. Where is the strategic policy 3860

on this proposal?

That is why I believe that, whilst I will support the amendment, I do not expect it to be sine

die, but what I do expect is… (Interjection) I expect the Hon. Member to come back, firstly, with a

total plan for the whole of the promenade.

We have mentioned in the thing about the 17 years since we last had the vision. (Interjection) 3865

Where is the vision now, Eaghtyrane? Where is the vision? Should we be creating land

reclamation as part of the vision? Should we have implications as far as rising sea levels are

concerned? No, we are bothered about the junction at the bottom of Victoria Street and Walpole

Avenue.


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I do think, Eaghtyrane, that the points that the Hon. Member for West Douglas brought up 3870

about the capital scheme and about prioritising are so important. The days of plenty, where you

could come here and we could be like some glee club – where we did not need a business plan,

where we could take it up and we could take the pieces that we liked and forget about the city –

are over. We have heard it, not from just me: we have heard it from the Treasury Minister and the

Chief Minister. When we are spending this money, we need to work out is this strategically the 3875

right place to start; what is the game plan; where are we going, as far as the promenade is

concerned.

My concern is that normally the old saying of beggan ry veggan ny share – little by little,

things get better… the fact of the matter is that doing this piecemeal, you might find that by the

time you get to where the priority is, the Members are just going to nod through… that they say, 3880

‘Oh, no, this is not… It is at the other end of the prom.’

I think there is very good reason to support this proposal. Whether it should have been to

October is another issue, but it should be supported as far as the adjournment is concerned because

you need to know the game plan, and I think it is important we know the game plan. So I think the

Hon. Member is right to want it adjourned because if we do not have – 3885

The President: Half a minute, Hon. Member.

Mr Karran: Pardon?

3890

The President: You have half a minute.

Mr Karran: Alright, half a minute.

The point is, Eaghtyrane, I think the adjournment is so important. You might not like what I

say in here, (A Member: Hear, hear.) but that is what the people outside this Court want – a 3895

reality check in this place.

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. 3900

As someone who was involved on the DoT at an early stage of this particular project, I do not

really see any merit in adjourning this particular Scheme.

I think when you look at the costs of renewing highway infrastructure, they do come at a great

deal of cost, and if we compare this particular Scheme to many other schemes that are happening

in areas across the whole of the United Kingdom, I think you will find the costs are broadly 3905

similar.

We could argue whether it should be £1.6 million, £1.3 million, or £1.2 million, and shave a bit

off here and there, but I think, as was explained at the presentation to Members, this Scheme does

fit as part of an overall strategy for the promenade, and I think some of the concerns rightly raised

by the Member, Mr Thomas, who has moved for this to be adjourned, are actually within this 3910

Scheme.

For example – and I know this is an adjournment debate, but this is one of the reasons why I

am opposing the adjournment – the concern over the horse tramlines is addressed in that the bulk

of this Scheme is on the landward side of the tramlines anyway. The carriageway itself and the

underlying layers underneath will need doing regardless of what the overall strategy is going to be, 3915

and unless you were looking at a wholesale demolition of that whole corner of Douglas and

realigning the carriageways, this work will stand alone as it is.

I take on board the points that have been made about should we be using granite or whatever,

but I thought the case was made that they are using a variety of different materials in different

areas, whereas maybe five years ago we may have done the whole area in granite. 3920

So I think, on balance, looking at the costs, and having lived through many of these schemes

during my time as Member for Works on the Department of Transport, the promenade is long

overdue. I would be delighted to be standing here to support the whole Scheme going through for

the entire amount, because the promenade is a disgrace, it is the gateway, and the obvious place

would be to start where the majority of traffic, heavy vehicles in particular, are damaging the 3925

carriageway, and that is of course at the Sea Terminal.

That said, I think the points are really valid: the whole promenade is a disgrace; it is a priority;

we have got to start somewhere, and I think this is the right time. I think in adjourning it we are in

danger of seeing the cost increase. We do not know what the costs of some of these materials are

going to be. I understand that the likes of the quarry, which of course we are fortunate enough to 3930


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own, is able to provide materials to enable this work to be done. The time fits right with the

workforce.

I think there is a strategy in place and I will oppose the adjournment, because I think we need

to be getting on with this job. I think if we adjourn it, we will never get started.

3935

The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Gawne.

Mr Gawne: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane.

I had not intended to speak on this, but Mr Karran’s comments brought me to my feet.

I just wonder where he has been for the last two or three years, in terms of the strategy and in 3940

terms of what we have developed. Certainly when I was Minister, 18 months, two years ago, we

were working with Members. We had a variety of presentations, in terms of developing the

strategy, and certainly, shortly after I left, I know the current Minister has made clear what that

strategy is and where we are going with the promenade. The shrieks of indignation from the Hon.

Member for Onchan that we did not have a plan and this was… where is the full picture – I think 3945

that has already been made very, very clear to Members.

So, with that clarity and that understanding that this is part of a series of schemes which the

Department has already outlined to Members, I really do not understand why we are delaying

making this decision. Either we want to do this, or we do not. If the Members from Douglas and

the centre of the Island choose to put this one off, that is fine. There are loads of roads in my 3950

constituency which would benefit from improvements (Several Members: Hear, hear.) and we

would be more than happy to accept the capital programme moving south, and you certainly will

not get the criticism.

I do understand that Members will have some concerns. This is a big scheme, but that is why

the Department engaged in such a massive amount of consultation with Members, with 3955

stakeholders and with Douglas Corporation. There was a huge amount of work went into getting

this at the stage that it is at; so please, let’s not run away from making another decision. This is an

important decision to make. It is the start of what will be a really massive improvement for

Douglas, and let’s not go with the adjournment, please.

3960

Two Members: Vote!

The President: The mover to reply.

Mrs Beecroft: Madam President, I did stand. 3965



I would like to congratulate Mr Thomas for moving the adjournment amendment and I will be 3970

supporting him.

I was actually going to ask on a reduced number of areas that had given me concern, actually,

one of which was the materials that are being used. I was not able to go to the presentation,

unfortunately, but I did take the time to go down to the Department, who very kindly made time to

see me separately and went through it all. I know there has been a comment made about using the 3975

correct materials to save on maintenance, but the Department themselves acknowledged that there

were cheaper materials that were being used in other areas of this plan that actually did not fade or

anything else and that they looked a bit different, but as far as quality was concerned there was

nothing there.

We do have to be careful, getting value for money. We should not be spending money if there 3980

is a cheaper alternative that is just as good – possibly not as pretty, but do Members really think

that businessmen coming here are going to go, ‘Oh, we’re not going to locate here because we

don’t like the colour of that’? I do not think so. As long as it looks tidy, as long as it looks

presentable, Madam President, it does not have to be the best in the world. We cannot afford the

best in the world anymore. It is about value for money. 3985

I do think it is right – we need to know more about the whole plan for that area of Douglas. We

do not know what is going on there, we do not know how it is going to affect traffic flows, and

Government has a dreadful reputation for putting down new roads and then digging them up again.

It is a laughing stock, and I would hate to see us going down that route again, I really would.


_________________________________________________________________

1638 T130

I do think we have got a clear picture of the promenade. We do not have a clear picture for the 3990

areas close to the promenade and how that is going to impact on that, and I do not think we have a

clear picture of whether we can afford this.

Again, in the Department it was made clear that this was done this way so it could be a

standalone project if further money was not forthcoming; so they have already acknowledged that

it actually could stop there. So, if it is going to stop there, is this the best value? I really do feel that 3995

we need a much better picture of the whole thing.

I think that is all, really. It is just that we can only spend this money once, and if we have to

wait until October to make a decision, isn’t it better to wait and make the right decision at that

time? I think the mover of the amendment was actually right to not give a time to it. It is up to the

Minister what urgency he puts on this. Whatever date somebody had come up with, they would 4000

have said, ‘Oh, that’s too short a time for him,’ or ‘Oh, that’s far too long to wait.’ It is the

Department’s decision as to how urgent they think this matter is, to get their act together and come

back to us with something that is more acceptable, more long-term planning, something that we

can all buy into.


The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Cretney.

The Minister: Yes, thank you, Madam President.

Can I just remind Hon. Members that – although we have not been circulated with the 4010

amendment – what the amendment I understand to say, whether it is Latin or my speak, is without

day, without assigning a day for a further meeting or hearing. So that is what sine die or however

my colleague and friend may describe it…That is what we are saying here. If this is adjourned, it

is adjourned. (Interjections)

4015

The President: Hon. Members, can I perhaps just give some guidance on that issue: it is that it

is adjourned and not within the current session. So it would not be considered within the current

session.

My understanding is that Mr Thomas wants it to come back in another form, covering the

whole of the roadway, and that he does not want this particular motion to come back. 4020

The Clerk may wish to add to that, (Laughter) as the Clerk has advised me.

The Clerk: Under Standing Order 3.11:

‘Except for a motion for rescission under Standing Order 3.20, no motion may be proposed which is the same in substance as any motion which, during the same session, has been superseded…’

– which means adjourned, of course – 4025

‘or resolved in the affirmative or negative.’

It only limits it to the session.


The Minister: Right, okay. Well, thank you very much for that clarification. I was depending 4030

on, obviously, a dictionary which does not apply in this Hon. Court.

The President: I asked the same question myself, sir.

The Minister: What I would say is since I have been Minister for the Department of 4035

Infrastructure, there were two schemes which have been loudly heard by myself from the public of

the Isle of Man, and they were Peel Road and Douglas promenade. We have got on with Peel; now

I am seeking the support of Hon. Members to start the first phase – which, yes, could stand alone –

in terms of Douglas promenade.

This work is so long overdue, it is unbelievable. There have been two major consultations with 4040

the public on this matter – two major consultations – and the public feedback is what is fuelling

what we are proposing to do here. The public feedback is what we are supporting here.


_________________________________________________________________

1639 T130

There have been questions raised: have we got the money? Well, if it is approved in principle,

in the current Pink Book we do have the money, but future phases are subject to future approvals,

so affordability will be assessed as matters move along. 4045

What I do want to say is I acknowledge the point the Hon. Member, the Speaker, and others

have said in relation to the Queen’s Promenade side of Douglas promenade, and that is why, just

before TT week, after receiving representations from no less than the Chief Minister and others,

we got the work done on a temporary basis there. Mr Butt had raised it in debate, others had

clearly identified that that was an issue; but for me, the logical place to start the first phase is 4050

exactly where we are proposing to start. I cannot see any other… It is absolutely clear that that is

the logical place to start the first phase.

We were asked about car park plans. Well, these are still being considered. There is nothing

aborted in the current plans and we hope to provide more direct pedestrian access.

Access arrangements to port facilities: there are no plans to change. 4055

Full details of the whole Scheme proposed: to delay further is unacceptable. The full Scheme

design work is needed to be completed before the detailed costs can be completely available. Hon.

Members will acknowledge – or I hope they acknowledge – that this first phase is the one in which

the best quality use of materials is so important, because it is the first sign when people come

along the promenade. It is the most important area, I believe. (A Member: Hear hear.) 4060

In terms of sea-level rises… the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran asked this and I can tell

him it has been considered; however, it is uneconomical to raise the whole sea defences at this

time because that would cost £50 million, and we do not have £50 million to do that work, and

whilst desirable, the cost of flooding does not warrant that investment at this time.

Mr Quirk asked about horse trams. They are not impacted by the first phase. Consultation 4065

results were strongly in favour of retaining the horse trams on a single track with passing places,

and that again came out loud and clear with the consultation we have had with the public. So those

Members who have, for whatever reason, missed the consultation, who have missed all the

discussion that has gone on since the time of Mr Gawne, and probably before that… that this

matter has been considered… I regret that they have missed that, but I do hope that Hon. Members 4070

will give us the opportunity to progress the Scheme today.


Mr Corkish: Yes, get on with it! 4075

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Bell.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Madam President.

This is just an exercise in procrastination, frankly. (Mr Corkish: Hear, hear.) 4080

We are elected to this Hon. Chamber to make decisions, not to put them off and put them off

and put them off.

What nonsense! We have got to, first of all, get the Strategic Plan sorted out, the Eastern Plan

sorted out, Lord Street sorted out, car parks sorted out. What have we not got to get sorted out

before you actually get round to making a decision? (A Member: Hear, hear.) 4085

We are trying to improve the environment of the capital of the Isle of Man. What brought me

to my feet, Madam President, was the ridiculous comment from the Member for South Douglas –

sorry, Mrs Beecroft, I mean! (Laughter) – that the state of Douglas, the promenade and surrounds,

will not stop people investing, will not stop people coming to the Isle of Man.

I can tell the hon. lady it has already stopped people investing and has already stopped people 4090

coming to the Isle of Man. I had the privilege of being Treasury Minister for nine years, Economic

Development Minister for 18 months, and now Chief Minister, and I can tell you I have probably

lost count of the number of people over that period who have been interested in the business

proposition that the Isle of Man has to offer, but seeing the physical built environment of Douglas,

have decided to move elsewhere. 4095

Mrs Beecroft: Point of order.

The Chief Minister: It is not just the promenade; it is central –

4100

The President: Hon. Member, please resume your seat.

Hon. Member raising a point of order, what point are you raising. The number?


_________________________________________________________________

1640 T130

Mrs Beecroft: A point of clarification, Madam President.

4105

The President: That is not a point of order, but clarification. Carry on.

Mrs Beecroft: Thank you.

I did not say that it was not putting them off as it was; I said it would not put people off if we

used different slabs. That is what it was. 4110

Thank you.

The Chief Minister: Madam President, I know what the Member was talking about.

Let’s get real, Madam President: central to our strategy is growing the economy. If we are

going to grow the economy, we have got to develop the right business environment and built 4115

environment to attract people here to invest. We are currently competing with 100 other

destinations for that investment.

We have started work at long last on refurbishing Strand Street and Duke Street. That already

is starting to show some improvements. We have got to be realistic. If we want this economy to

grow, which ultimately will generate the revenues we need for the public services and everything 4120

else we want to do, you have got to take these bold decisions to achieve it; otherwise, you are

going to see a continuing deterioration of the promenade and that central Douglas area, and

frankly, you can say goodbye to long-term investment prospects for the Island generally.

Hon. Members, I would urge you to put this game playing, this shadow boxing the Liberal

Vannin associates are trying to impose on you… Let’s get real. 4125

Mr Quirk: Point of order, Madam President.

I am not in the Liberal Vannin Party. (Laughter)

A Member: They wouldn’t have you! 4130

The President: Members, you need not take any notice of that remark.


4135

The Chief Minister: I will qualify that, Madam President: Liberal Vannin associates and

fellow travellers. (Laughter)

Madam President, this is a serious issue. We have got to start improving this infrastructure

now. You cannot continually put it off until you have dotted every i and crossed every t. There are

risks involved. We have got to be bold and take these leads. 4140

One point I will say, Madam President, that we need to look at is how we finance the capital

programme going forward. We have already started talks and we have spoken to the Treasury

Minister about this. We cannot allow the capital fund to run out. We have to find funds to keep

that capital programme going. That is no reason to say no, we cannot do anything until we have

got the whole thing sorted out. 4145

I do not know where the Liberal Vannin Members have been for the last few years. As other

Members have said, there has been extensive consultation, exhaustive consultation on this

programme for the whole of the promenade for quite some time. The results have been made

public. There have been presentations for Members. How much more do you want? You are

elected to make a decision. If the decision is no, fine; but be straight with people. Do not try and 4150

put a smokescreen around it and say, ‘Well, we need all this information before we can actually

make it.’

There is a very simple proposal in front of Members today: do we start the Douglas Promenade

Improvement Scheme, or do we procrastinate and kick it into the long grass?

4155

The President: Half a minute, Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: All I would say, Madam President, is take no notice of these diversions.

We have got to focus on the economy and what will benefit the economy of Douglas and the

Island and the future of our people. This is a first step. 4160


The President: The mover of the adjournment debate to reply, Mr Thomas. 4165


_________________________________________________________________

1641 T130

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Madam President, and to all the speakers who have contributed to

this debate.

My amendment motion was not about procrastination; it was about clarification. Even more

than clarification, it was about raising the issues and giving everybody else the chance to raise the

issues in the context of saying what I have said quite clearly, which is it would be better to have 4170

been coming to this Court with £17 million and everything in this very clear document will be

done. But as it is, the people… I am not sure if they actually know… They clearly want the

promenade developed, as all of us do here – we all certainly do here – but I think they might think

they are going to get everything inside this document, or everything that came up in the

consultation afterwards, or everything that is in the planning proposal that has been approved in 4175

small part; but I do not think that is the case.

I think it has been helpful, even if it has just given the Minister the chance to clarify some of

the priorities. I do not think we got a clear answer to exactly what the priorities are, where along

the promenade things will take place, when things will happen, but at least we have had a debate

on record now about it. So I repeat the statement that I made, which is I think it would have been 4180

better to have come with the whole Scheme and given us a chance to debate the whole Scheme.

As it seems we might not be voting for my amendment, I encourage my hon. colleague for

West Douglas, who has just been appointed as Chair of the Douglas Master Plan Committee, to do

his work in the next couple of months so that can feed into this work.

The Department of Infrastructure, as I understand it – although it is perhaps not in the public 4185

domain yet; I am not sure to what extent it has been presented to Members – has done a pavement,

parking and car-parking strategy. Perhaps you could reveal that to the general public. I understand

that it is quite clear to the public that it costs £3 million to £5 million to put the horse tramlines…

take them up and put them back down. It is quite clear now. All these things are going to be taken

out of the £17 million, and I hope my proposed amendment has been helpful in clarifying some of 4190

those things.

I move my amendment:

That this debate be adjourned sine die.

The President: The motion before the Court is that this Item be adjourned sine die. Those in

favour, please say aye; against, no. The noes have it.

Division called. It requires 13 votes in the Keys and five in the Council to succeed, Hon. 4195

Members.



FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mrs Beecroft Mr Thomas

AGAINST Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 5 votes for, 18 against.


_________________________________________________________________

1642 T130


FOR None

AGAINST Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

The President: In the Council, no votes for and 9 against. The adjournment proposal fails to

carry, Hon. Members.

We continue with the debate on the main motion. 4200

A Member: Vote!


4205

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, it is nice to know now that we are going to have the business

community coming to the Island and feeling our kerbs, as to whether it is cheaper granite or proper

granite! I just wonder, at times, whether the Ard-shirveishagh has lost the plot completely as far as

the whole issue that the Hon. Member for South Douglas has on this issue.

I also find it quite frightening… If we are here in the situation as far as rising sea levels are 4210

concerned, and the fact that we cannot do anything about the prevention of flooding on the

promenade, really speaking we need those sort of fundamental issues sorted out. I think the reason

why I am objecting to this is this money could well be needed somewhere else strategically in the

development as far as the promenade is concerned, and it does concern me that if there is an issue

of concerns about flooding, we really need to get that sorted out as part of any infrastructure 4215

renewal programme as far as this proposal is concerned anyway.

My concern is the piecemeal aspect. I think the Hon. Member for West Douglas summed it up

right: there should be a strategic long-term plan. What happens when we make it up as we go

along… That is the reason why the poor Chief Minister and the Treasury Minister are in the

problems they have got now, as far as the fact that we did not have strategic policies, or thinking 4220

the long plan. It is not about procrastination, it is not about dodging the issue – I am happy to

make unpleasant and unpopular decisions – but what I am concerned about is that, yes, Mr Gawne

says that there is a plan, but there is a detailed plan as far as the promenade is concerned. The

issues that need to be addressed as far as the promenade is concerned, if we are going to have the

vision like we did 70-odd years ago with the extension of the sea wall, is maybe we should be 4225

looking at land reclamation. Maybe we should be looking at land reclamation so that there could

be other issues like a new hotel site, prestige hotel site, being part of that redevelopment of the

promenade.

What I am concerned about is that… and when I say about the white elephants coming home to

roost, (Interjection) the problem will be… They are coming home to roost, and they are creating a 4230

liability that we have seen that we have got now. We have not got the fiscal control that we should

have, because we have just allowed money to be wasted on all sorts of things. You have only got

to look… You have got £400 million-worth of debt with the MEA, which… we are all scratching

our head as far as that is concerned.

So I think it is serious, but the thing that concerns me about this Douglas Promenade 4235

Improvement Scheme… This is not where phase 1 should be. I do not believe it is the right place

for where phase 1 is concerned. When you are going to get people asking the famous point… Are

the bendy buses anything to do with the restructuring as far as…? I believe that even the Chief

Minister and the likes could not be planning on anything like that, but these are issues that have

been raised about this so-called proposal that is in front of us here today. 4240

Hon. Members, no-one wants to shirk their responsibilities. I think it is too easy for us just to

go along because of the classic input from the Member of Council, Mr Braidwood: it is in the

capital programme; it does not matter about the priorities as far as strategic priorities; we have

managed to keep the capital programmes procedure right, instead of making sure that we are

spending the money in the right place. I am afraid… You might not like this, but there are an 4245

awful lot of people outside this Court who look at this Court’s decision-making (Interjections) on

lots of these things with disbelief, the way they get nodded through.


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1643 T130

I understand that people will… almost certainly there will be the block vote, and the situation

will be that this will go through, but my concern is that here we have money that might be eked up

on this project, and when harder fiscal times come up we will regret that we did not put it where 4250

the priority was, like Hon. Members said about the problems at the other end of the promenade,

where there are concerns that there will be gullies appearing one day on the promenade, as far as

the Queen’s Promenade is concerned.

The President: The Lord Bishop. 4255

The Hon. Member, Mr Singer.


The people of Douglas expressed their views quite clearly, more than once, that they wanted to

see the improvement of the promenade, and I do not know what they would be thinking today, or 4260

what they are thinking today, when they hear a Member for Douglas basically saying, ‘Don’t

improve the centre of my town, even though we have wanted this opportunity for several years.’

Just now, we have had Mr Karran talking about the construction of the sea wall 70 years ago. I

think with his attitude, if he had been in this Court 70 years ago, even now we would not have a

sea wall. 4265

Much of this, Madam President, is to do with overall presentation – presentation of the Island,

giving out the quality message for the Island. I do not disagree with Mr Henderson about the long-

term poor condition of the promenade – he is quite right – but this is to be tackled now.

I must stress that this Hon. Court now needs the courage to see the whole promenade project

through and to go through it following logical stages. We have said, ‘Why don’t we do this stage, 4270

why don’t we do the other stage?’ You cannot do that. You cannot do here, there and everywhere.

It has got to be done logically, and that is what the plan is. The following stages are known and

drawn up in draft, so it is not as though this is being produced in isolation. It is known where we

will be going next, subject to approval of this Hon. Court, through the stages until the promenade

is completed. 4275

The later phases do take into account what is an expensive realignment of the horse tram

tracks. One of the questions I have to ask, maybe as a non-Douglas Member, is what is the attitude

of Douglas Corporation going to be. Are they going to guarantee the continuing service of the

horse trams for the next 30 or 40 years? They say they are losing £250,000 a year now. They tried

to get the Government to take over the horse trams. The cost of realigning the tracks – which is a 4280

major engineering job; it is not just a case of lifting them up and putting them down again – is

going to be probably over £2 million. So there is a question there to be asked of Douglas

Corporation. Are we going to realign the tracks, spend all that money, and then Douglas no longer

continue the service? That is a question to consider.

Mr Quirk did raise a point about the terminus of the trams possibly in Regent Street. I 4285

understand that that is not possible because of the angle that the track would have to take off the

promenade.

All I can say to Hon. Members is support this, please. Have the courage. It is going to improve

the capital of the Isle of Man, as has been said, for the people who are coming here, getting off the

boat, just travelling round – the businessmen – and this is important not only to the people of 4290

Douglas and the Members of the House of Keys for Douglas, but it is important for the whole of

the Island, the image of the Island, and I hope that Members will support this as a first stage.


4295

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Braidwood.

Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Madam President.

I have listened to the Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Karran, and once again negativity comes

streaming out of his mouth. 4300

I remember being in this Hon. Court when he was Chairman of the Water Authority. He came

here for £75 million for improvements in the water infrastructure. However, the whole scheme

was not given in front of us; it was done in phases. We could look at the IRIS scheme. We know

the amount of money, as a five-year scheme at the present time – it is all done in phases.

The same principle with the promenade – as said before, £17.625 million – and it will be 4305

introduced in phases. Mr Karran did not want to start it at Peveril Square, the gateway to the

Island; he wanted to go to the exit to start, because that is what the… (Interjection) the promenade.


_________________________________________________________________

1644 T130

Let’s look at the priorities. The Chief Minister said over the last number of years, the last

decade – and I know this myself – people who have come to the Island to invest have been turned

away. They have turned away from the state of Douglas. It might not be some of them – they have 4310

to bring families over, and sometimes it is their spouses who do not want to come.

We looked at materials we want to use on the promenade. I am on the Douglas Regeneration

Committee with the Minister, who is Chairman of it. It took us a long time to see what materials

we wanted to use. Different materials being used in different places. We have used granite. In

Ramsey regeneration they have used granite and different colours. 4315

If we look at the scheme and what has been given to us by the Department, we can see where

granite is going to be used down Victoria Street and where the Jubilee Clock is going to be sited;

then we will go on to other materials, which is the medium-quality stone – that is granite and a

composite – which is running around Peveril Square; then we go on to another footway, which is a

standard-quality finish, which is round the Sea Terminal. 4320

The Minister, when he was moving this, said it is long overdue. Peel Road – how many years

did we hear from people talking about Peel Road and the ride and the bumps? It is now being

renovated – whole construction again. This will happen to the promenade. We have to start

somewhere, and we have to start at the gateway.

Mr Karran seems to be voting against everything, as normal. 4325

Madam President, I hope Hon. Members will support the scheme which is in front of us,

because this is the way work is done on capital. We have a scheme: it will be brought in in phases.

I know that the Department of Infrastructure would love to see this done in one easy go, but we

have to manage the capital programme with different schemes. There are a lot of Departments –

there are nine Departments – who want to come forward with different schemes. There is only so 4330

much capital we can spend.

I hope Hon. Members of this Court will support the motion.


4335

Mr Quirk: Thank you, Madam President. Just a couple of issues I want to take up with the Minister and hope to seek assurance on before

I will be voting for the scheme, and that is regarding the spend which is local. On the back of the

briefing paper:

‘… 45% of the construction cost will go to the locally based civil engineering contractors for materials, labour, haulage

and other plant.’

Well, that is a shame; it should be more than that, and I would think that Treasury and 4340

Procurement itself should be looking at why that spend is not even up any more than that, if it is

going to be… Where is it?

I will give you an example of that: we did the thing at the Airport, the extension of the runway

there. We brought in the material from a foreign jurisdiction, but it came through a local company.

We got the spin-off of it. So why aren’t we doing that, Minister? That is the issue I am bringing up 4345

there for you. It should be more than 45% that comes back to the Isle of Man in our spend.

The other issue I have got is when we are going to use contractors on that too, and I hope – and

I seek an assurance from you, Minister, regarding this – that the contractors use their own PPE,

that is personal protective equipment. (Interjection) I do not want to see contractors – and it is no

joke – using the Department’s equipment or PPE equipment, just because… I am assuming the 4350

Minister knows what I am on about there. (A Member: We don’t.) That is something between me

and the Department. (Interjection)

Can I say too that, regarding the railings, I do disagree, because there are issues that you have

to plan if you need a highway. I have seen the accidents happening at the Sefton and so forth like

that. Can you imagine what happened when the car went over where the Rendezvous was, if those 4355

railings were not there? There were pedestrians who were there: they could have been killed. I do

not want to see that, so I want to see, if the scheme comes in… I do not want to see the railings

being taken away if they are for protection purposes.

The other issue I seek… because I believe, like Mr Karran does, that we need to see the long

projection on this: what is going to happen; where do all these policies fit in (A Member: We 4360

have got it.) for stimulating what I call this end of the promenade? Never mind the Summerland

end of the promenade, which wants stimulating when somebody else wants to look at that site and

develop. I want to seek an assurance too that we are not going to have also what I call the meters –

parking meters – seen on the promenade. I look for a steer from the Minister regarding that.


_________________________________________________________________

1645 T130

My final issue is – and the Member for the Department who is the Member for Highways is 4365

quite right – we should have had a steer from the Corporation regarding the trams. What is the

future of the trams? Are we going to spend a lot of money on something, at the end of the day, we

are going to get back… and my poor friend and colleague from Malew and Santon is going to be

lumbered with another white elephant? (Interjections)

4370

The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly.


I shall be supporting the motion because this is about infrastructure improvement. I think there

is a lot that has been said about the cost, the value for money, and rightly we should debate that. 4375

I, for one, of course, have plenty to say, I think, about Peel Road and what that would or would

not do. However, I did say I will support this because I support the principle of gateway and how

important that is for the Isle of Man – not just for the people of the Isle of Man, but for the people

who come here to invest and the visitors.

There has been a considerable amount of consultation, as we have heard, and it appears quite 4380

clear this is what the people want. They want to see an improvement in the Douglas promenade.

Sure, we ought to be concerned about value for money. Mr Quirk is talking about the spend in

the local economy – very good point: 50% is to be in the private sector. That money spent is vital

for the construction trade and our economy, so we really do need to bear that in mind.

Another point which I do not think has been raised is this area that is going to be improved is 4385

an area of great danger for pedestrians, and that will be a massive improvement. The timing of this

is right, so we get it right for next TT.

It is phase 1. Just to try and give you an idea of how these phases actually work, in

regeneration talk, we talk about that… We have had a small section, DoI investment regeneration,

in the bottom promenade in Port Erin and it has changed the face. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) 4390

It has been a massive boost for the area. The community and the traders very, very much welcome

it. I was half tempted with the motion there to change ‘Douglas’ for ‘Port Erin promenade’. (Two

Members: Hear, hear.)

Getting back to the Douglas master plan, we are absolutely right, we do need to have a master

plan, but this is a phase 1 that can move with a master plan. When you have a master plan there is 4395

delay. We have got a lot of essential components that need to feed into that. The retail strategy: I

know I have been working on it for nearly two years, and this is vitally important to the Douglas

master plan. Parking: another major issue with regard to the promenade. Obviously the trams do

play a role, but this phase 1 can be a standalone, and I think is the gateway of gateways.

There has been talk about the quality finish. I will leave you with this one thing: do we want 4400

Douglas to be a quality destination?

Gura mie eu.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan.

4405


Obviously, as a Member of the Department, I get up to support this as well. Douglas

promenade is… the improvement has been long overdue.

The Member for Highways mentioned that the people of Douglas were consulted. I can tell you

when I was a Commissioner, a long time ago, documentation arrived at Castletown 4410

Commissioners on this. This must have been back in 2007, I think – it was a long time ago. Here

we are now, half a decade on – more – and hopefully going to get it started.

I also agree with the Member for Rushen about gateways: it is the gateway of gateways. Of

course, everyone knows my views on Ronaldsway Airport: I want to see investment in and around

there, in and around my constituency, not just Castletown. (Interjection and laughter) It is very, 4415

very important. (A Member: It is in Santon and Malew) But gateways are key. Any studies will

tell you that gateways are key to any investment.

I think what is also important is that we do invest in infrastructure. Infrastructure is key. With

that we have also got, as the Member for Rushen quite rightly said, our workforce at the minute. It

was mentioned in an area before, and said that Government is 80% of our construction industry 4420

right now. A shameful figure, but it is a fact, and we have got to keep that going; otherwise the

construction industry will probably keep going downhill, which is unfortunate.

I think, again, I will just touch on here what the Chief Minister said, and, if I may, touch on

what Mr Thomas said as well – try to get some synergies here. Vision is vital. Vision is absolutely


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1646 T130

vital if we are going to move forward. Vision does not cost a lot of money, but what vision does 4425

give is it gives hope, and with hope you will get investment.

I know, Mr Thomas, you disapprove of the way it is being done, but at least it is being done,

and I can assure you, as a Member of the Department, I am confident that the long-term vision and

the master plan of the new committee that has been set up… I am sure there will be consultation

with the master plan committee, with the Douglas Corporation, to make sure the vision which you 4430

want will happen. But it is important that we get going with this because; otherwise, there will

probably inevitable delays, which we just cannot have.

I would, though, just like to touch on one area, which is the horse trams. It is an old, historical,

vital part of Douglas which people have been very proud of for years, but I think what we have to

do… and I am not saying I am right or wrong here; what I am saying is it is important a debate, 4435

certainly in Douglas Council, goes on now to see if the horse trams are absolutely necessary

moving forward. They have been lovely for the Isle of Man. Do we really need them now? It is a

big keep, and I would hope that my comments today will not be seen as negative but as a positive

for debate. You have just got to look at other towns and cities around the world, and it is important

that you ferry people from A to B as quickly as possible. I would certainly hope that the 4440

Corporation would speak to the Department about this, to see if there is a better solution to what

we have got now.

Just finally, there was lots of talk about granite today, a very important product. One area

which I have been very keen on, as Chairman of Castletown Regeneration Committee, is about

sourcing materials. The regeneration projects around the Isle of Man, which are a great success… I 4445

have seen the one in Ramsey recently, which is looking lovely, but it is very important where we

source our materials from. If we are sourcing our materials from the other side of the world

because they are a penny or two cheaper, is that the right decision?

I will tell this Hon. Court that, as Chairman of Castletown Regeneration Committee, I am

looking to source materials as close from the geographical area as possible, and I will say, to 4450

people who have been sniping at me doing that, the prices are just the same. They may not be as

pretty colours, but what I will say is that, certainly for my town, it will look lovely. I would hope

that any sort of projects going forward, we look to support ourselves, but very important, we

support our neighbours too.


The President: The Minister to reply.


I would like to thank all Hon. Members who have taken the opportunity to become involved in 4460

this discussion, whether today or in the extended period of time it has taken to get here with the

first phase.

I think one of the previous speakers said that he can recall – I think it was indeed Mr Ronan,

the Hon. Member for Castletown – discussion about this when he was a Commissioner in 2007.

And that is what it was: the consultation was not just a consultation of Douglas residents; it was a 4465

consultation of all Island. It was a wide consultation. It was one of two consultations on where we

were up to thus far. That consultation will continue as we develop – hopefully, with Hon.

Members’ support – into the further phases of this proposal.

I completely take on board the comments that have been made by a number of Members in

relation to the financial imperative to make sure that every pound is a pound well spent. I 4470

completely acknowledge that. It is even more important now perhaps than ever. That is why this

first phase, which we consider, despite what my good friend the Hon. Member for Onchan says –

he does not believe this should be the top priority… I clearly do believe it should be the top

priority and that is why the materials being used in this first phase are of a higher standard than

will necessarily be the case in further phases. It is about first impressions. 4475

I will answer a number of the individual questions, if I can. Mr Karran, when he spoke the

second time, again raised the issue of flooding. It is right that he should raise the issue, but I

understand that he did raise it with the Department and was sent a detailed letter explaining the

risks of flooding and the cost of addressing the risks and mitigating them. So it is disingenuous to

say that they have not been considered: they have been considered. The points he has made were 4480

considered.

The point about granite kerbs – I think that the look of the scheme will be enhanced in this first

phase, and that is why it is so important that we use the granite.

I already indicated that certain works have been undertaken in relation to the Queen’s

Promenade side of the promenade, in terms of temporary works to try and alleviate some of the 4485


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problems that exist up there, and I do hope that Hon. Members will appreciate that, as we go

along, if further work is required out of sync to make sure that the road surface meets a suitable

standard, that is what will happen.

I would like to thank Hon. Members who have been supportive, including the Hon. Member

who I did not refer to earlier, the Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Henderson. The point he 4490

made is why has it taken so long, and I have to say that I agree that it is long overdue. It is better

late than never.

In terms of linking the Lord Street area, the DoI refurbished the road and footways in 2010, so

that work is linking in to this further development.

There was a difference of opinion in here between the Hon. Member for North Douglas and the 4495

Hon. Member for Onchan in relation to railings removal. I have to say I come down on the side of

the Hon. Member for North Douglas, inasmuch as I believe there is far too much clutter, not only

in this location, but Islandwide – not only in terms of railings, but in terms of unnecessary signage.

(Several Members: Hear, hear.) I think it is something which is really… We have got a beautiful

Island, and I think we should be aiming to minimise the clutter and unnecessary signage around. 4500

Mr Henderson: Let’s get rid of the railings, then.

The Minister: That is what is going to happen.

My colleague, the Hon. Member for Onchan, referred to the 45%, and it is actually 50%. I do 4505

not know why the paperwork says… I have read… The paperwork says 45%, but it is 50%, and

we are using Island-based suppliers to source the materials, as I explained earlier.

Are the horse trams really necessary? Well, (Several Members: Ooh.) (A Member: Neigh!)

that is something which every year, more or less, the Corporation, when they are having their

budget discussion, comes up in that forum, and whether the £250,000, or whatever it is, the cost to 4510

subsidise… whether that is money well spent.

All I would say is, in my opinion, they are an iconic feature. Where we are at the moment with

this phase allows us to have further discussion about the horse trams, but it also allows the horse

trams to go on the seaside of the promenade walkway, on the footway, and it will, if that

continues, which we understand that the Douglas Corporation have approved in principal… Well, 4515

they would, because they are not spending the money, but it is something which they are

supportive of.

But I understand also that that is a significant amount of cost here, so the other side to that is

that, whatever happens with the works being undertaken in the road, then the horse tram tracks

would have to be reinstated anyway if they were going to be left in the middle of the road. So we 4520

believe that to have them on the seaside would be a substantial improvement. Some people, I

think, in the past have said they act as a traffic-calming measure. I do not believe we should be

using the horse trams as a traffic-calming measure.

I have heard, the same as the Hon. Member, Mr Karran said, that the reason we are moving the

Jubilee Clock is to facilitate the bendy buses. I heard that on the corner of Peel Road going in to 4525

Pulrose as well. My own constituent said, ‘You’re doing that to allow bendy buses in.’ Well, if

you look at who the Director of Public Transport is and his concerns about bendy buses, I think

you are perhaps barking up the wrong tree, and anybody else who is making comments about that.

It is to make an area around about the Jubilee Clock which will be much more usable and a much

better space and will be more appropriate in terms of the context of a gateway. 4530

I am not going to go on. (Several Members: Hear, hear.) (Laughter) I am very grateful for

Hon. Members’ contributions. I acknowledge the points that other Members have made, but this is

an ongoing process. There will be ongoing consultation. We will obviously have to meet the rigid

requirements of the Treasury in relation to whatever we come up with, in terms of future phases. I

think that is something which is a necessary discipline. I ask Hon. Members if they would please 4535

support this first phase which, if necessary, could stand alone, but I certainly hope it will not.

I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Members, the motion on Douglas Promenade Improvement Scheme –

Phase 1 is set out at Item 5 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The 4540

ayes have it.




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1648 T130

FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

AGAINST Mr Karran Mrs Beecroft

The Speaker: Madam President, the motion carries in the Keys, 21 for, 2 against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 9 votes for and no votes against. The motion therefore carries.

Ramsey Swing Bridge Refurbishment



That Tynwald approves the Department of Infrastructure incurring expenditure not exceeding

the sum of £650,000 in respect of Ramsey Swing Bridge Refurbishment.

[Ref: Scheme Code G18-033 Item 28 under the heading ‘Department of Infrastructure’ on

page 27 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14 and under the Estimates of Capital Payments 2013-

14 to 2017-18 on page 70 of the 2013-14 Budget]

The President: We turn to Item 6, Ramsey Swing Bridge Refurbishment. I call on the

Minister for Infrastructure.

4545

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you very much, and I thank Hon.

Members for their support in their last Item.

Ramsey swing bridge and viaduct was constructed in 1892 and had been the subject of partial

refurbishment and repair throughout the intervening period. For instance, the swing bridge slewing

ring was replaced in the 1970s and extensive blasting and painting were undertaken in the mid-4550

1980s. However, in 2012, damage caused by significant misalignment was noticed.

This misalignment has been caused by wear and tear and, following inspections, it was

concluded that extensive replacement and realignment of the slewing mechanism was required.

Failure to undertake this work and associated work to better protect the slewing mechanism inside


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1649 T130

the centre masonry pier will result in continued deterioration of this important mechanism with 4555

consequent increased costs.

It is foreseeable that, despite increasing maintenance effort and costs, the slewing mechanism

could fail. While such a failure might only have a slight impact on vehicular traffic flows in

Ramsey, there would be a significant adverse impact on pedestrians. Also, given the iconic nature

and location of the bridge, the Department considers that undertaking a refurbishment scheme is 4560

much preferred to taking the bridge permanently out of operation following a major failure.

The Department therefore proposes to undertake a refurbishment, which will, subject to

approval, return the turning mechanism and centre pier to a sound condition in order to secure the

bridge’s long-term safe and cost-effective operation.

The work will include returning the turning mechanism to the original design parameters, using 4565

new parts where necessary, refurbished elements where appropriate, and realignment within

appropriate tolerances; jacking up the bridge in order to replace original centre bearing;

repositioning and refixing the displaced masonry blocks to ensure the structural and watertight

integrity central supporting pier and refurbishing the internal drainage system; installing a large

new hatch to replace the existing small and poorly positioned access hatches – this work will 4570

improve and make safer access to the turning mechanism for future maintenance; minor repairs to

the timber end pieces to enable the bridge to be supported for the duration of the Scheme.

Should Tynwald approve this Scheme, it is intended to commence work in early September

and, subject to there being no unusual weather, complete just before Christmas 2013. The delayed

start enables the Department to order and receive essential new parts that have a 10-week lead-in 4575

time and ensure that the public, businesses and other organisations are well informed of the

closure of the bridge for the length of the proposed works and the need to make alternative

arrangements for the duration of the Scheme.

The total cost of the Scheme will be £750,000, although approval is being sought today for just

under £650,000. It is estimated that around 70% of the total cost will benefit resident companies 4580

and the Department. This is due to the main contractor being the Department’s Operations

Division.

All plant and site accommodation will be sourced on Island. With the exception of the

construction adviser and specialist site management services provided by MPM North West Ltd,

all of the project team are based on the Isle of Man. MPM was the main contractor for the recently 4585

completed scheme to stabilise the Queen’s Pier and has extensive experience in the refurbishment

of Victorian structures and machinery. Most of the remaining 30% of the cost of the Scheme will

be spent on new bearings and other castings that can only be obtained from a specialist supplier in

the United Kingdom.

In developing this Scheme, it is recognised that blasting and repainting the bridge, installing 4590

energy-efficient decorative lighting, repairs to the road, improvements to traffic management,

together with improvements to the operating and controlling system, were desirable. However, this

work could cost up to £750,000, depending on the extent and specification chosen, and as it is not

essential, it has been deferred. The Department will look in more detail at these elements of work

and, if appropriate, develop a business case for a future capital scheme. 4595

To conclude, the proposed Scheme is necessary to ensure the long-term safe and cost-effective

operation of an iconic and important structure.

I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. 4600


I am very happy to second this project. It will bring vitally important mechanical work, all

behind the scenes work on that bridge, to bring it up to standard and maintain its integrity for at

least the next 100 years. 4605

Thank you.



I will not be as critical on this particular Scheme, but there are some questions that need to be

asked. The Minister has touched on one. At least 61% will benefit the Island there, so that is good.

You are improving on that one.


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1650 T130

Could I ask the Minister, with reference to the bridge… and when the Member who is in the

Department has just said for the next 100 years – I do not think that is a statement that the Minister 4615

will actually support. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

If we refurbish this now to a certain standard, what is the shelf life? Or are we going to be

looking to replace it with something in the future? Or will this be the structure that will be there

forever, even when we are gone?

4620


The Minister: I think there is an element of crystal-ball gazing in response to the Hon.

Member for Onchan, in terms of how long this will… It will significantly improve the lifespan. I

am not going to say here 100 years, because sometime in the future it may be less than 100 years, 4625

and whoever follows us in this Hon. Court will say ‘That Cretney was a liar!’ (Several Members:

Hear, hear.) (Laughter)

Madam President, again, we also need to recognise that there will be challenges with this

Scheme in terms of, in particular, the swimming pool, and we will be doing everything we can to

minimise any disruption or concerns for pedestrians who are using that area of the town. It will be 4630

difficult whilst the works are going on and we will work in co-operation with them.

I take, by lack of discussion on the subject, Hon. Members realise the importance of retaining

this iconic structure.

I just want to finally, before moving, place on record my thanks to an excellent officer in the

Department who is retiring shortly, Mike Brew, who is here today (Several Members: Hear, 4635

hear.) and to whom I am very grateful for his support and technical expertise in getting this matter

before Hon. Members.

I beg to move.

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 6 on your Order Papers. Those 4640

in favour, please say aye; against, no.


In the Keys – Ayes 23 , Noes 0

FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

AGAINST None

The Speaker: Madam President, the motion carries with 23 for, none against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Downie The Lord Bishop

AGAINST None


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1651 T130

Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

The President: In the Council, 8 votes for and none against. The motion therefore carries.

Strategic Highway Refurbishment Programme



That Tynwald –

1. approves the Department of Infrastructure incurring further expenditure not exceeding

£1,770,000 in respect of their Strategic Highway Refurbishment Programme;

2. authorises the Treasury to spend out of the Capital Transactions Account during the

financial year ending 31st March 2014, a sum not exceeding £1,770,000;

3. approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding £1,770,000 being made by

Government, such borrowings to be repaid within a period of 20 years.

The President: Item 7, Strategic Highway Refurbishment Programme. I call on the Minister

for Infrastructure to move. 4645


The 2013-14 Budget allocates funding of £1.77 million for rationalisation of the Department’s

Depot Strategy. However, this is considered premature in the context of the Scope of Government

Report, which requires consideration to be given to options for alternative means of service 4650

delivery, and that is work ongoing.

Therefore, the Department wishes to seek Tynwald approval to mitigate slippage in the capital

programme by diverting the funding allocated for these projects to undertake a programme of

highway work to the value of £1.77 million. This will accelerate the current programme of renewal

of the highway asset to provide an improved network. 4655

As I am sure Hon. Members are aware, roads are a vital piece of public infrastructure, and

without them most economic and social activity ceases. Failure to maintain a sufficient level of

investment historically in the highway network has resulted in roads continuing to deteriorate,

which brings about escalating maintenance costs. The proposed funding reallocation will go some

way towards addressing a reduction in carriageway defects, resulting in fewer insurance claims, 4660

accidents and complaints.

In previous years, the Department has received business case approval to proceed with a

programme of highway capital maintenance to the value of £3.5 million. However, in the present

economic climate, under the approved budget for 2013-14, these programmes were allocated

budgets of just £1.7 million. This represents a funding reduction of £1.8 million, compared to the 4665

previous year and the approved business cases. The welcome reallocation of £1.77 million of

funding from Depot Strategy works will ensure that planned levels of investment can continue as

planned.

If approved, the Department would bring forward a programme of more straightforward

maintenance projects in 2013-14, targeting roads linking towns and villages to the strategic and 4670

secondary routes, together with routes around schools, hospitals and regeneration areas.

A schedule of potential schemes has been provided to Hon. Members in the explanatory notes.

These would be prioritised on the basis of their deliverability in the financial year, traffic use and

condition, with the most deliverable heavily trafficked routes in the worst condition being given

priority. The programme is intended to assist in a move from the current reactive patching regime 4675

towards a programme of planned reconstruction and resurfacing.

The public and businesses will be consulted on a scheme-by-scheme basis to ensure that works

are carried out safely with a minimum of disruption. Measures such as off-peak working, extended

working hours and road closures will be considered as appropriate, in order to ensure that the

works are carried out effectively and efficiently. It is proposed that the majority of the works will 4680

be carried out utilising in-house resources through the Department’s own Operations Division

operating as the main contractor, with materials being supplied through the Department’s quarry

and tarmac plant.


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1652 T130

I believe it is important that approval is given to this motion to allow my Department to put

measures in place to ensure delivery of the planned additional works within the current financial 4685

year, with the subsequent benefits that I have explained.

Anybody, Madam President, who has watched what is going on in the United Kingdom at the

moment will have noticed that one of the themes that the present coalition government are coming

up with over there is investment in infrastructure. This is exactly what this scheme provides and I

do hope that we can show some leadership and support this resolution. 4690

I beg to move.


Mr Singer: Thank you, Madam President. 4695




I do rise to support the particular initiative. Looking at the plan though, I just wonder if I can

seek assurances from the Minister regarding the 1 to 58? I presume those priorities will be able to

be changed as deterioration of roads or footpaths, or whatever, come along, so that it is not a finite

thing and you have to wait for number 17.

I just noticed there were only two in Onchan, and I am really disappointed that one – that has 4705

been an issue in Onchan for a long time, the concrete road at Ballachrink, on which the slabs are

sinking, or do sink and go down. I am just wondering… a small comment on that.

Maybe the little bit of criticism I have too, because… Well, not criticism first, but the issue

regarding footways, and it was great to see in Finch Road – and the criticism comes after this…

On Finch Road you did a good job. You were a little bit slow doing the Finch Road job regarding 4710

the footway, but hey ho, just where the barber’s used to be and the sweet shop just after the car

park there, as you come up, the road is in a terrible state. It is rutted there all the time and I defy

any Member to miss the rut when you are coming to work. For the sake of a bit of tar, it was

disappointing.

4715



I have got no problem with extra money being spent on essential work to improve our roads,

but I just wonder if the Minister could clarify a few points for me that I just may not have 4720

understood correctly, if he would.

It says it has got the order of priority: is that a fixed order? Is that definitely the order that they

are going to go with?

£1.775 million seems quite a specific figure, and I am just wondering if that is because he has

got specific items within this, within all these, that that is actually going to be targeted at; or does 4725

it follow on from money that has already been allocated to these? Where, down this list, are we

going to get to with the money that he already has plus this additional money?

I think the one that causes me concern is item 33, which is the Tromode Road, which is

£1,672,125. If that was to suddenly go up in the priority list, it would just gobble up most of this

money. If you could just clarify that a bit for me. 4730

Apart from that, I have really got no problem with our general roads being improved. I think it

is very necessary.


4735


This is really a one-off opportunity to improve our roads. The list is advisory.

On the point that the last speaker makes, there will be the smaller projects that are done

because they have to be done by the end of the financial year. So it is the smaller projects that have

come from that list, and hopefully these projects will be spread around the whole of the Island so 4740

that everybody will get some advantage from what is extra money. So the large projects… whilst I

think the Department would probably do larger projects – it is easier for them – the intention is to

do the smaller projects.


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1653 T130

On that list… I say it is advisory because there are some, when they have been looked into, that

may need design or they may need work with the stats. We will not have time to do that, so it will 4745

be work that is needed, is in that list, is important, but that can be completed by the end of the

financial year.

Also, I think every Member gets complaints about the state of pavements, (A Member: Yes.)

and it is the intention of the Department probably to take maybe £¼ million out of that

£1.7 million to do pavements, but again spread around the worst pavements on the Island – the 4750

ones that lead to shopping centres and to schools and to medical centres – so that everybody on the

Island will get the advantage of this money and it will not be concentrated in small areas. So it will

be a fair deal for everybody, hopefully.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. 4755


I rise to support this proposal. Just a minor concern: I was promised in my constituency, in

Strang Road (A Member: Hear, hear.) from Union Mills up the Strang roundabout, that it would

be repaired, because it is in a dreadful situation – and I do not see it on this list. 4760

Thank you.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.

Mr Cannan: Just a point of observation. I will be supporting the motion, but looking at the 4765

advisory list, I can see very little in the way of rural roads being looked at. Certainly north of

Ramsey the Bride, Ballaugh and Jurby areas are lacking. I am just wondering whether… Is that

because they are all in perfect condition, (A Member: Yes.) or because we are trying to get into

the towns first? Can I just raise that observation with the Minister, that there is a lack of those

areas on this list and that perhaps some of those roads could be reviewed and revisited. 4770



Obviously I rise again to support this. I think this is an excellent use of resources. As was 4775

mentioned there before, the Depot Strategy is under review, money was available.

I just think the way the Department has done this has been excellent. I would also like to thank

the new Member for Highways for the way he has dealt with this as well. He is being open and

honest with everybody, he has tried to give all the Island a little bit of this.

One thing I will slightly criticise is the slight typo in the Castletown area – it does come down 4780

as Rushen, but… (Several Members: Hear, hear.) I am not happy about that!

There is some work getting done at Castletown railway station, and this is part of it. I am very

grateful for this, because this will be the catalyst for something which we are proposing in Poulton

Park, to make it an activity centre for the south, including Members of Rushen. I have had

conversations with the Member for Community, Culture and Leisure about the rear of Castletown 4785

railway station (A Member: Hear, hear.), which is a beautiful railway station. We want, in

Castletown and in the south – to see that area used. We want to see the area used by visitors, by

not just the people in Castletown but people Islandwide. It is a beautiful part of our town and I am

very, very grateful to the Department for kick-starting that project. Thank you very much.

4790


The Minister: Thank you very much, Madam President.

I thought for a moment it might go into all of the constituencies round the Island, really; but I

am very grateful. 4795

The priorities will be assigned on the basis that the roads which require the work most will be

those which are attended to as a first priority.

I thank my colleague, the Member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, who has responsibility now for the

roads, for taking seriously his responsibilities in that regard.

If I speak to one or two, Mr Quirk said there are only two in Onchan on the list. We have just 4800

done a lovely scheme right through the main road of Onchan, with lovely traffic lights. The traffic

lights are actually working now, so what more do you want?


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1654 T130

A Member: Trying to get rid of them.

4805

The Minister: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle is another. He wants Strang Road doing, but we

have already done Glen Darragh Road, which was great for the Parish Walk, but that is about it,

really.

And Mr Cannan – my friend, Mr Cannan – the Hon. Member for Michael: without his

permission, I went to Ballaugh Curraghs recently, and there is a lovely lady who showed me all 4810

around the roads that require to be done in that area.

So it is a thing all round the Island. They will be scientifically prioritised, and we will do

whatever we can within the money that is available. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

Mrs Beecroft asked about the £1.77 million being a very specific figure and why that was the

case. That is because this is money reallocated elsewhere from the specific project where the depot 4815

reduction strategy… So it is just that figure has been transposed to here.

I am advised that, in relation to the northern rural roads, they will have to be kept safe but we

have to be realistic as well, because the big list is something over £11 million. We are talking

about £1.77 million here. We will do our best to assist.

I ask Hon. Members, please, to support investment in the infrastructure here. Let’s show the 4820

other lot on the other side of the water how to do it.

I beg to move.

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 7. Those in favour, please say

aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 4825



FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

AGAINST None

The Speaker: In the Keys, 22 votes for and none against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 9 votes for and none against. The motion therefore carries.


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1655 T130

Replacement Bus Ticketing System

Debate commenced

8. The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to move:

That Tynwald approves the Department of Community, Culture and Leisure incurring

expenditure not exceeding the sum of £400,000, in respect of the replacement of the existing

bus ticketing system, enabling utilisation of smartcard technology and expansion of use to

encompass railway ticketing subject to the Department completing the remaining stages of the

procurement process in accordance with Financial Regulations and to Treasury’s satisfaction.

[Ref: Scheme Code G16-044 Item no. 12 under the heading Department of Community,

Culture and Leisure on page 25 of the Isle of Man Budget 2013-14 and as detailed in the

Capital Estimates 2013-14 to 2017-18 under the heading ‘New Schemes’ on page 66 of the Isle

of Man Budget 2013-14]

The President: Item 8. I call on the Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure to move. 4830

The Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Madam

President.

As many Members will understand, my Department is under significant financial pressures,

and I have made it clear to my officers that I wish to secure every possible financial saving and 4835

make sure we collect every penny of income we are due. We have to increase efficiency before

reducing services or further increasing fares. This request for capital funding satisfies both these

aims.

As Members will know, the Department has engaged on a lengthy process of change in bus

operations. There has been reduction in management staff, changes in terms and conditions, and 4840

alterations to timetables, to name but some of the initiatives.

The current bus ticketing system was supplied by Almex and was subject to a recent Public

Accounts Committee Report, which concluded that the system had not been correctly specified for

the need and had not been delivered and installed in a way that the overall project did not deliver

value for money. 4845

The system has now reached the end of its design life, and in August technical support will no

longer be provided. By that time, the system will be five years old, and although that is at the low

end of what should be expected from a system – normally five to seven years – the risk of not

replacing the system grows daily as breakdowns become more frequent, putting on-board revenue

collection at risk. The system also fails to produce important management information which is 4850

vital to determining future services.

Only Blackpool and Nottingham still use this version of Almex and both are urgently looking

for replacements. This will leave us in the position of being a small sole user of a system with

software that will be no longer supported by its supplier.

At the simplest level, the bus ticketing system functions as a cash register, albeit one that 4855

collects £2½ million a year. We need to ensure that we collect a fare from everyone who should

pay to travel and that we can account for the money collected at the end of the working day. The

unreliability of the current system means that there are days when tickets cannot be issued and

when the money is not collected.

The bus ticketing system also provides us with important information on journeys being 4860

undertaken by our passengers and the movement of buses. The current system provides very

limited information in respect of these matters, and a new system will provide us with the means

to have accurate information about passenger and bus movements, which will mean that we are

better able to match our services to travel patterns.

Technology has now moved quickly, with smartcards becoming the standard practice 4865

throughout the bus industry. In particular, the Department is keen to follow the UK standard

practice of introducing ITSO, which is a common technical standard that means that no matter

what bus, train or route they are using, the same card can be developed for multiple uses, which is

something that may be of benefit in the future to this Department or others – a uniformity of back-

office operations, which helps reducing cost. 4870

The Department has concluded that there is little option but to replace the Almex system,

which it is regrettable that better value was not obtained from the purchase. Lessons have been

learned, and in particular the Department has engaged two bus ticketing experts who have worked


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on major ticketing developments in the UK, so that we can have confidence that the new system

will not only be fit for purpose but capable of upgrades to extend its useful life. 4875

The Department’s requirements for a new ticketing system include the use of smartcards

utilising the UK ITSO standard for transport ticketing systems. Versatile ticketing options include

immediate deployment of new ticketing options and fare structures; minimisation of potential of

fraud; a reduction in depot infrastructure and associated costs through a web-based system; ease of

use and ease of upgrade to embrace new technologies; handheld units for use on the railway; 4880

improved real-time operational information and vehicle location; reduced back-office management

costs; remote management and upgrades, minimising downtime; real-time uploads of information

to machines; and easy development of mobile phone apps and passenger displays.

Hon. Members were, last year, shown a system by the then Minister Crookall of the sort of

machine that we are considering, and I can confirm that this technology has been trialled by our 4885

drivers and found acceptable. We are looking for a system that operates outside the Government

IT network and have had support from ISD in doing so. This not only saves costs to us, but

addresses one of the major criticisms of the Public Accounts Committee’s Report into the previous

system.

Hon. Members, I think, at this point, that it might be helpful if I gave a brief summary of the 4890

concerns of the PAC and told you what my Department has done to address them.

The PAC expressed concern that a generalist civil servant had been put in charge of the

procurement project and pointed out that it was a mistake not to engage specialist assistance. I can

assure Members that not only has the Director of Public Transport almost 40 years of industry

experience, but that even though he has implemented several changes in ticketing systems he 4895

regards the work as being so specialist that, on his advice, the Department has engaged two

separate bus ticketing system experts.

The PAC was concerned that the supplier chosen for the last system was a poor choice in that it

was a minor player in the market and soon left the market altogether. The Department has made

sure that its specification requires this new system to be operating successfully across a number of 4900

UK bus operations.

The PAC noted that the Almex system did not deliver the specification originally required and

that it was never designed to be operated on a complex IT network such as that operated by the

Isle of Man Government. Inadequacies in internal communications and technical problems meant

that the supplier was never properly held to account for these difficulties, because their system 4905

could not integrate properly into the Government IT network, with the result that there had been

many years of modifications and upgrades to a system that has fundamentally been expected to

operate in a way that it was never designed to do. The replacement system that my Department has

specified will operate entirely outside the Government IT network. It will be hosted externally and

will be available on a web-based system, with each bus communicating on a real-time basis via the 4910

GPRS mobile data network.

Whereas the PAC Report refers to ISD’s inflexibility and insistence on integrating ticketing

systems into the Government network, I can confirm that ISD has not only been supportive of the

idea of an externally hosted system, but has provided much valued support from its own

management resource. 4915

The Public Accounts Committee concluded that the previous purchase did not offer value for

money. As Members have just heard, I have no intention of brushing this under the carpet and am

insistent that we learn from our mistakes, made by the previous Department and a previous

management team.

There will, of course, be many similarities in the specification of the new system and the old 4920

system, as they were both there to collect money and issue tickets. Members will recall that when I

began to speak on this issue, I referred not only to the need to collect the money due to us, but also

to make savings. One of the important features of the new ticketing system is that all the market

leaders offer an integrated smartcard ticketing option. The most familiar of these to Members is

likely to be the Oyster system used on London Transport. 4925

The functionality for this system is included in our proposal and is the key to unlocking

significant savings. These take many forms. At the simplest level, we will no longer need to print

and issue multi-journey tickets or pay commission to retailers who stock them. This alone will

save us £50,000 a year.

More importantly, we have a significant problem with incorrect payment of fares. This takes 4930

many forms, from individuals who misrepresent their final destination to those who abuse

concessionary passes. We would also be able to remotely turn off concessionary entitlements. For

example, if an unemployed person were to find employment, we could immediately remove their

entitlement to free travel. There are an unknown number of passes issued at the request of other


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Departments still in circulation, some of which are quite probably no longer valid. We believe that 4935

eliminating this abuse will allow us to grow revenue by an estimated £175,000 through reducing

fraudulent travel. The figure is based on research undertaken in the UK, which suggests that 4% to

10% of all travel undertaken is fraudulent. We have applied a low-point calculation in our business

case, but the figure is supported by many individual cases of known abuse of the system, including

unacceptable use of free passes. We will be introducing legislation to impose penalty fares for 4940

those travelling without a ticket in the near future.

The smartcard system could allow a wide range of more sophisticated ticketing types that

could mean, in the future, the Department could, for example, decide to issue a tourist ticket that,

rather than being valid for three days from the first use, was valid for three days of seven, so

allowing greater value in use, hence increasing sales. 4945

The combined value of these improvements to the Department is estimated as an annual saving

of £200,000 per year, meaning a ticketing system costing no more than £400,000 should pay for

itself in two years. Hon. Members, I regard this as an excellent repayment period.

I would also add that a smartcard system will allow us not only to collect the money that we

are due, but to increase custom. The type of ticketing system that we are considering will allow the 4950

Department to know the precise location of all its buses at any time, which means that, in future,

we could easily provide much-improved information to passengers, either in the form of displays

at bus stops or in the form of online or mobile phone real-time information. Better information will

mean increased fare income.

Hon. Members, before concluding, I would like to confirm that, whilst I have referred 4955

consistently to a bus ticketing system, the sums requested allow for provision of sufficient mobile

ticketing machines for the Island’s railways, as currently the electric railway uses a 1950s

mechanical machine crudely converted into decimalisation. With the Island’s railways being a

premium price offering, any failure in collecting and accounting for revenue is quite literally twice

as significant as failure on the bus service. 4960

Members will know that the Department has had much success recently with increasing the

numbers of passengers using the railways, and particularly attracting increased numbers of

specialist tour operators to the Island. It is, of course, imperative that we collect every penny of the

money these visitors bring us.

Finally, Hon. Members will note that the wording of this motion includes a reference to the 4965

need to complete the remaining stages of the procurement process. The Department is working

with the Treasury procurement services team and is in the final stages of resolving the

procurement process, but cannot rush this to a conclusion simply to meet the Tynwald deadline.

Similarly, I have made it clear to my officers that I want the work concluded as a priority and do

not wish to delay our savings by putting this much-needed work on hold until the October sitting. 4970

I can confirm that Treasury is content with this process and I have given the undertaking to the

Treasury that no money will be committed until they give the final sign-off.

Madam President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Corkish. 4975

Mr Corkish: Madam President, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: I think at this point, Hon. Members, we will take a break. The adjournment

will be until 5.35 p.m. 4980



Replacement bus ticketing system

Debate concluded


The President: Please be seated, Hon. Members.

We will proceed with our debate on the replacement bus ticketing system. Does any Hon.

Member wish to speak?

The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle.

4985


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1658 T130

Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President, and I shall be brief.

The DCCL’s track record on buying a fit-for-purpose ticketing system is, to say the least,

pretty disastrous, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) and I was just wondering what procedures the

Minister can advise us of, or project plans are in place, to measure the success of the savings that

are being projected as £200,000 a year, and therefore the costs will be written off over a two-year 4990

period?

Will the Minister publish this information to Members; and will he further commit, should this

be approved, to providing an update in July 2014 and July 2015, advising Tynwald Members as to

whether his £200,000 per annum target has been met in savings?

4995



The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.

5000


I have to say that the Minister, in his remarks, has painted a picture of a bus service riddled

with fraud and incompetency, in terms of fare dodging and failure to pay. What intrigues me

slightly is that, notwithstanding what the Chief Minister said earlier on the Scope of Government,

my understanding was that the bus service was one of the areas mentioned in the Scope of 5005

Government Report in January 2013 for potential alternative means of service delivery, and that in

order to do that, Departments were required to produce high-level business cases, cost benefit

analysis, assessment of risk and reward factors, assessment of political factors, external scrutiny

and support, where required. In other words, areas such as the bus service are required to fully

assess their needs and requirements going forward and whether the service could be delivered by 5010

alternative means.

Indeed, later on in that Report, it does go on to say that possible privatisation or corporatisation

is on the cards for that particular division. It strikes me that what we are asking to do here is to

slightly put the cart before the horse, in terms that we have not really yet decided, or at least it

would not appear to be, in the timescales, that we have decided how the bus service should be 5015

delivered going forward, and to spend another £400,000 at this early stage to put in yet another bus

ticketing system seems to me to be premature. I would ask what is the point of a modern ticketing

system if we do not have a modern bus service?

We have already heard this morning, from Mr Henderson’s Question, that there are a lot of

questions, I think, from users of the bus service as to how it is being delivered and the routes that 5020

are being used. As far as I can see, the assessment and appraisal has not been undertaken properly,

with regard to alternative means of service delivery, and therefore I think we are going to run the

risk of bringing in a ticketing system that will not be appropriate to the future services being

delivered.

I also have to question how this modern ticketing system will look when boarding the tram or 5025

the steam railway. Again, the Minister has painted a picture of a highly efficient system with

flashing lights, up-to-date technology and computer-led information that will inform passengers

exactly where a bus or a service is. But I have to ask, are we now trying to bring in a Rolls-Royce

scheme, when in fact what we should be concentrating on is the core issue of service delivery?

I have also got to ask: he mentions the electric trams, Snaefell and Steam Railway services and 5030

the 1950s technology that is in place, but surely the ethos behind these services are effectively that

they are a step back in time and they are a tourist attraction? I am not quite sure at this precise

moment – and perhaps the Minister will explain in his reply – how he envisages a modern

ticketing system working on these particular services. Are we going to have some sort of sliding

door technology where the smartcard is swiped before you get on this tram; and are we therefore 5035

going to have to spend tens of thousands of pounds updating and modernising our tram and

railway services?

So, as it stands at present, I will not be supporting this measure until we have heard and seen

how the bus service has undertaken its full scope and review, and that a full and proper vision has

been delivered for the future, because as it stands at the moment, it would appear that an 5040

appropriate service to the community is not being necessarily provided for. I think it is important

that we are actually clear on the core service and how that is going to be delivered before we go

and start spending further money on a ticketing system that may eventually prove to be

inappropriate, given that an alternative means of service delivery is brought in.

I think also the questions around the all-singing, all-dancing card, as per the Oyster card in 5045

London… I expect will cost quite substantial sums to maintain. Again, I think if compared to what


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1659 T130

is being delivered on the Isle of Man with what is being delivered in a major city, again I feel that

we are trying to bring in here another Rolls-Royce scheme, when in fact we have not really done

the ground work in terms of our preparation and our vision for the future.

So as it stands, I will not be supporting this measure. 5050



Yes, there are obviously concerns about how this is all going to work and the ongoing cost and 5055

everything else; but I would just like to lift it up a level if I may and ask the Minister has it

actually been discussed in Council of Ministers, because I realise that he could not do this on his

own, a cost benefit analysis of actually making the buses free because…and my memory could be

wrong, but I believe he said 80% of all passengers do not pay anyway, and I think the revenue was

£2½ million? (Interjections) 5060

So if you look at the big-picture things, which would mean inter-departmental co-operation,

because I realise that the Minister could not achieve this on his own… but if you look at carbon

emissions that we are supposed to be reducing, if you look at the capital cost of car parks and all

the administration that goes with those, and if you look at all the wear and tear on our roads of all

the cars that are going about – and we have just seen the Minister this afternoon asking permission 5065

to spend more money on our roads – I am sure that the benefit of actually having free buses in the

bigger picture, not just for one Department, would actually outweigh all the costs and I would be

grateful if the Minister could give us some information on that in his summing up at the end.

Thank you.

5070

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you, Madam President.

Those of us who have used smartcard technology for travel, like the Oyster card, I think accept

how convenient it is and to be able to top up the card periodically, and I would be grateful if the 5075

Minister would just say a bit about how this smartcard technology will actually work. Of course,

one of the things that it does is ticket your journey, but also I guess potentially it keeps a data trail

of your travel.

I think the question I would therefore ask is for the Minister just to advise the Court whether,

in terms of data protection policy, this technology of the Department has been cleared with the 5080

Data Protection Supervisor, because clearly he will know there was a problem, was there not, with

CCTV in respect of a bus shelter, I think it was, where it fell foul of the data protection

requirements and the law? Because the two things together when you think about it, if there is a

record of a passenger’s journey quite specifically and there is a CCTV record as well…We know

that there is regulation of surveillance legislation in place, but potentially under that legislation the 5085

two technologies could be combined and an individual could be tracked. These fears could be

absolutely groundless if the Minister can confirm that the Data Protection Supervisor has cleared

the use of this technology.

Mr Henderson: 1984. 5090

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President.

I think it is important that we note that the current system needs replacing anyway, and I think 5095

that is one of the reasons why – certainly as a former Member of the Department – there were

extensive discussions into the systems that were available. We did have a very interesting

presentation – I cannot actually remember when it was now, but it was certainly over 12 months

ago – of the system which was preferred for this.

The benefit of this particular system is, as the Minister said, it is Cloud based, which means 5100

that the Department does not have to constantly invest in new servers when they become time

expired. Also, the hardware that was going to be used – for example, the machines that would

print off the various tickets and things – were standard items that were available. They were not

manufactured to order for a specific system, and so as those pieces of hardware become time

expired they can be replaced by newer versions, rather than having completely bespoke systems, 5105

which once they are out of date you are stuck having to buy a whole new system, and this was one


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1660 T130

of the things that attracted certainly us when we were in the Department to the particular system

that is before us now.

The expansion was also something that was very much on the minds of the Members of the

Department then, which I understand is similar to the motion, with regard that you could, at a later 5110

stage, at key bus stops, incorporate visual aids to passengers so that they know when the next bus

is coming. Yes, that would be the Rolls-Royce add-ons; but the fact is that this system will enable

that to happen as and when and also means that you could put them in just the key areas.

One of the biggest problems with using the bus service at the moment is if you are not a

regular bus user. I got the bus into Douglas a couple of months ago. When you go to the cash 5115

machine, it gives out £10 notes. The bus driver refused to take it and so I had to scratch around in

my pocket trying to find enough change to get the bus fare. I can see a lot of people, if we

introduce a smartcard – like they do in London – just buying a smartcard, having it loaded up with

a few quid and having it in their wallet and you can just hop on a bus whenever you want. We

would probably see people… I would use it more, but at the moment the faff and inconvenience – 5120

it is just easier to get in the car.

So I think these new systems undoubtedly will be a selling point therefore for the bus company

to advertise that really every resident should get one of these cards because it is going to be easy.

People can then just go out for a drink in an evening and get the bus home. It makes it easier for

people and we could then see increased use. 5125

But behind this system, of course, is the management of information that the operators of the

bus service will be able to gauge. We heard this morning in the debate about use of services. When

I was in the Department we were not really sure exactly how many people were using certain

routes, and I think this is really important when you are planning your future routes.

So again, the back office technology is going to give a lot of management information in real 5130

time; whereas I understand that with the current system you have to download the data –

somebody has to physically go and do that – import it into another system, interrogate that data,

and put it together with everything. It is a very time-consuming process and I just think that is not

the way we need to be going.

I understand the concerns of Mr Cannan, saying about we might be looking at a different 5135

model, but I think no matter who runs the bus service going forward, whether it be in its current

form, a corporatised model or, if for some reason somebody does take on elements of it on a

privatised basis, should that happen, they are still going to need this system to operate the service.

So I would urge Members, having gone over this in quite some detail in the Department –

assuming we are talking about the same system we had the presentation on, which was an 5140

excellent system – to support this so they can get on with the information. I quite agree. Make the

bus company then say, ‘Well, we will report on whether we are meeting these targets.’ I think that

is a fair compromise, but I would also ask the Minister would he maybe bring forward a further

presentation on the system following this debate so that Members can have more information on it,

if that is possible? 5145

I will be supporting this motion today.

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Corkish.

Mr Corkish: Thank you, Madam President. 5150

As a Department Member of Community, Culture and Leisure, I will, of course, be supporting

the motion.

The current bus ticketing system was supplied by a company called Almex, which I think the

Minister referred to in his speech. (Interjection) – I am talking, thank you very much, Member –

and was the subject of a recent report of the Public Accounts Committee (Interjection by Mr 5155

Houghton) – thank you too, Mr Houghton; awake! – of which I am a Member, and concluded that

the system had been incorrectly introduced into the system. The system is not fit for purpose and it

needs replacement. End of story. The Department needs to ensure that they collect a fare from

everyone who should pay to travel and we can account for the money collected at the end of the

working day. 5160

The Minister, more than once this morning, answering Questions during Question Time,

illustrated that this system, as proposed, would provide both answers to information needed and

assist better usage of transport and revenue for the public, the Department and the Isle of Man’s

benefit. Surely such a move as promised here is to be welcomed by this Hon. Court, which would,

we believe in the Department, provide many benefits and savings itemised. I will not go through 5165

the items that the Minister offered this morning – much to the delight, I am sure, of the Members

for Douglas North.


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1661 T130

With £200,000 savings per year and the system costing £400,000 – a quick payback I would

suggest – this must remain an important goal, savings like this to the Department and the Island in

all things that we do. 5170

Just referring to the Hon. Member for Michael, I would suggest it is not a Rolls-Royce scheme,

but a workable, modern and cost-saving system, badly needed and providing funding for further

investment in the Island’s transport system.

So, as a Member of the Department, I am satisfied that, if this system is implemented, many

savings and benefits from the introduction of the system outlined by the Minister will come to the 5175

fore, and of course I support this system, which I believe is much needed. It will be of benefit to

everyone concerned.


The President: Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 5180

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think it is good if the lessons have been learned, as far as this issue

is concerned, from the crazy purchase of the previous system. I am glad to see that obviously there

have been lessons learned and hopefully this is something that maybe this experience can be

extended to others. 5185

It was described to me that the previous ticketing system was like sending a 12-year-old out to

do the weekly shop at Tesco or Shoprite or wherever, and I think the point is that with that

assurance those lessons have been learned, I think we should be accepting the fact that whilst I,

and many, hold the belief that we should have free buses and believe on the same lines as my

colleague for South Douglas said, the equation as far as economically and on the issue of 5190

environmental issues, that is something that we would like to see and still want to see if it was at

all possible.

We are in difficult times. We are in difficult times as far as maximising the efficiencies and

effectiveness as far as a Government service is concerned. So I feel that we really have no choice

but to have the confidence to allow the Department to actually support this proposal in front of us. 5195

I am a bit concerned about the issue that I am lead to believe is something like £2,500…

£2,400 per machine for each bus. It does seem very expensive; but the point is allowing for the

fact that we are not going to have a repeat of the fiasco we had previously and maybe they need to

be taking on board this with other aspects as far as computer services and other Departments of

Government. 5200

I think we need to realise that we have to make fundamental decisions and if we are not going

to be able to afford free transport costs, which I would prefer to see… but when I see the biggest

danger that we are seeing for the next generation is social mobility… mind the physical mobility

of being able to get around the Island cheaply or not, the social mobility, we have to make the

decision where we spend the public purse. If they say that within two years the savings will be 5205

there, I think occasionally we can hope that Government will get it right. I think we need to

support them on this proposal.

One thing I am a bit concerned about is the fact that we had a select committee and once again

they came up with recommendations, but no one is ever held to account. As I say, it disappoints

me when it was an ordinary working man that would be hung out to dry and sacked, but when it is 5210

different ones, it has the same effectiveness as being ‘savaged by a dead sheep’, as the famous

quote from the adjacent Parliament is concerned.

So, Hon. Members, the only thing I would like to ask the Shirveishagh is will there be any sort

of discounts to encourage people to actually have these cards? Will there be a way of them getting

a discount for prebooking, as far as these cards are concerned, in order to help with the dire 5215

problems that he does have as far as cashflow is concerned in his Department?

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Coleman.

Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President. 5220

I stand to support the new system for the benefits perceived, and obviously we need to replace

the system; but I do have three slight problems with it and they are basically technical.

The benefits of the Cloud are as stated, but one of the disadvantages of the Cloud is you do not

know where your data is. It can be on any computer anywhere in the world, which means that you

also might have a data protection issue because you do not know where your data is being 5225

transmitted to. If that is not true in this case, I would be very pleased to hear that.


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1662 T130

The second thing I have is that you actually said that the smartcard was like an Oyster card. An

Oyster card has an RFID chip in it, and in London shops were picking up the personal data when

you went in from the RFID chip in an Oyster card. That is the second point.

The third point I have got is I totally agree with Mr Quayle. I think, bearing in mind the history 5230

of ticketing systems, a post-implementation audit, possibly done by Internal Audit, would be a

very wise move.

Thank you.



If I can firstly deal with the question from the Hon. Member, Mr Quayle: an update of savings.

We hope that we will get the system given full approval and final sign-off from Treasury later on

this summer. The implementation will be all the way possibly from September through. We would 5240

hope to get the majority of these machines in early on. So to get that year on year – following on

from Mr Turner’s point, I think – when we start the installation of these machines, we will give a

presentation to Members and give a date from year to year from there.

Mr Cannan: premature. I can just imagine Marks and Spencer’s when the tills go down, saying,

‘I tell you what, let’s do without, because we don’t know what we’re going to do – we’ll give 5245

everything away for free until we’ve decided what we are going to do.’ We need this system. The

machines that we have got are not collecting money. I do not think any company would think it

acceptable to close their cash registers down and not collect money. And that is what this does: it

collects money.

As for the MER and the Steam Railway, these are hand-held units that you can just either 5250

swipe your card over or you can still pay money and it will print you off a ticket. So it stills prints

you off a ticket to say what your journey was. So that is what it is: a ticketing machine. It is not a

Rolls-Royce system. If you want a Rolls-Royce system, there are other ones out there that give

you the whole package. This is being done as the most economic one that we can find because that

is what we are trying to do. We have listened to what the Public Accounts Committee has said and 5255

we have tried to address all the issues.

If I go on to the Member for South Douglas, Mrs Beecroft: free bus fares. As we said, we are

collecting £2½ million in fares already. So not only would we lose that £2½ million, but if we

made travel free, we would have to procure more buses. A new double-decker bus is over

£200,000, plus the running costs, and so as much as people would like to have free travel – 5260

A Member: We need bendy buses.

The Minister: – it is not really a feasible thing for us to do.

Mr Speaker was talking about CCTV in the bus shelter, but that was actually DoI that put that 5265

up – it was not ours. As a data protection issue, Mr Speaker said about we had an issue, I recently

went across to have a look at a bus service. They have the exact same buses as us with the exact

same CCTV as us and they do not have an issue with data protection. The Data Protection

Registrar in the UK has no issue with it. The problem that we had was the interpretation of Data

Protection Registrar. 5270

Top-up: we can actually have a top-up via the web. So you can top your card up via the web –

go on the internet and top it up – or you can hand your money over and they can top the card up

that way via the bus driver or the railway station. So the machines can actually put your credit on

there to deal with the smartcards.

I think I covered Mr Turner’s. I thank you for your support, and as soon as we have got final 5275

sign-off on the type of system that we are going with, we will do another presentation to Members

to make them aware of exactly what will be happening.

Mr Karran: I would like to thank him for his support. We did try to listen to what the PAC said,

and hopefully we have learned the lessons from the mistakes in the past. We have had different

people look at it who are in the industry and have dealt with these machines. I think one of them is 5280

dealing with the introduction of these in Manchester now. So we are dealing with people who are

doing this throughout the UK.

Mr Coleman: the chip. I do not know whether the Oyster card that they were having difficulties

with was the old one or the new one, because I understand they have put a new system in for the

Oyster card. So I do not know whether he is talking about the old system or the new one. One of 5285

the companies I have spoken to about this, and there does not seem to be an issue regarding any

corruption of data or interception of it. So we do not foresee a data protection issue.


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So with that, Madam President, I would like to thank all Members for their support, and I beg

to move.

5290

The President: The motion relating to the replacement bus ticketing system is set out at Item 8

on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.



FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

AGAINST Mr Cannan

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 22 votes for, 1 against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Braidwood Mr Coleman

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 9 votes for, no votes against. The motion therefore carries.

Ballure Cliff Stabilisation Scheme


9. The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

That Tynwald –

1. approves the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture incurring additional

expenditure not exceeding £407,000 in order to address further land slippage at Ballure Cliffs;

2. authorises the Treasury to spend out of the Capital Transactions Account during the

financial year ending 31st March 2014, a sum not exceeding £407,000 in respect of the

additional expenditure;


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3. approves of and sanctions borrowings not exceeding £407,000 being made by Government,

such borrowings to be repaid within a period of 30 years.

The President: Item 9, Ballure Cliff Stabilisation Scheme. I call on the Minister for 5295

Environment, Food and Agriculture to move.


Eaghtyrane.

Members will recall the Statement I made on this issue at the June sitting, which advised of the 5300

significant problems and slippages being encountered with the Ballure Cliff Stabilisation Scheme

due to extreme weather events. At that time, I advised that I would be bringing this financial

motion seeking additional funding to the Court for approval.

The required work has been the subject of rigorous investigation and lengthy discussion, where

the design team has provided a robust and cost-effective solution to extend the Scheme in order to 5305

remedy the additional slippages.

I wish to reiterate that the work is necessary in order to protect the MER line, the MEA power

lines and ultimately properties and the main coast road in the area.

I would, therefore, Eaghtyrane, like to move the resolution in my name.

5310




5315

The President: The motion is set out at Item 9, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say

aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

No Hon. Members stood – I presume no-one wished to speak.

Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13

Report received

10. The Minister for Home Affairs to move:

That the Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 be received. [GD No 0030/13]

The President: Item 10, Chief Constable’s Annual Report. The Minister for Home Affairs to

move. 5320

The Minister for Home Affairs (Mr Watterson): Madam President, under section 4A of the

Police Act 1993, I am required to move that the Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 be

received by Tynwald.

The Report is being laid before this sitting along with the Department’s Policing Plan 2013-14, 5325

the Police Complaints Commissioner’s Report for the year ended 31st March 2013, and the Isle of

Man Constabulary Inclusion Report ‘A New Dawn’.

I have the pleasure of informing you that the Constabulary has continued to build on the

successes of previous years, with the Island’s crime rate falling for the sixth consecutive year. In

total, 2,203 crimes were recorded during 2012-13, as opposed to 2,657 in the previous year – a 5330

reduction of 17.1% year on year and a fall of 21.1% in comparison with the three-year average.

In comparison with the UK, Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man continues to have a lower

crime rate per 1,000 people and its detection rate remains the highest out of all the jurisdictions.

The detection rate for 2012-13 was, at 47.4%, lower than last year’s rate of 51.9%.

Nevertheless, this is significantly higher than the 28.4% detection rate for England and Wales 5335

from the latest statistics for 2011-12.

Furthermore, in comparison with the UK, the Island remains fortunate that crimes relating to

burglaries, vehicle offences and robberies account for just under 10% of all recorded crime, as

opposed to 25% in the UK. This comparator serves to be an indicator of the potential emergence

of serious and organised crime. Therefore, by the decline in this measure, the Island continues to 5340

be in a healthy position.


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The reduction in the level of recorded crime does not mean that we should grow complacent,

and I would urge members of the public to remain observant. All too often, the Police have found

that offenders have been able to burgle premises that have been left insecure or where basic

security measures have not been taken. 5345

Burglary in people’s homes continues to be considered by the public as a serious category of

crime. While the number of such offences in dwellings has increased slightly, from 54 to 59, the

number of burglary offences committed other than in dwellings has dropped significantly, from 67

to 42. Overall, the level of burglary offences in general has dropped to the lowest levels since the

late 1980s. 5350

Particularly noteworthy is that, despite the unfortunate series of offences in the south of the

Island, criminal damage offences have fallen from 777 offences last year to 698 this year, a fall of

10.2% year on year and 17.9% lower than the three-year average.

In addition, public order offences have fallen from 276 last year to 221 this year, a fall of

almost 20% year on year and almost a quarter compared to the average over the last three years. 5355

In relation to drugs, the number of crimes has decreased from 187 last year to 162 this year, a

decrease of 13.4% , with the number of drugs offences recorded being 14% lower than the three-

year average. However, evidence from seizures of drugs and intelligence indicate a decrease in the

trafficking in class A drugs, such as heroin and cocaine, and in increase in the trafficking of class

B drugs, such as cannabis and ecstasy. This has been attributed, in part, to higher profit margins 5360

and lower sentencing options for class B drugs.

I am particularly pleased to be able to highlight a further reduction in domestic assault

offences, from 82 to 77, continuing the trend of the last two years. Anecdotal evidence from

victims indicates that the intensive work being done by the Multi-Agency Public Protection Unit

and by officers on the beat is making a real difference to the lives of vulnerable people, but further 5365

work remains to be done in this area.

The Constabulary recognises that its performance in pure statistics terms detailed with the

Report does not necessarily encapsulate quality of service. A survey of victims of crime over this

period shows 92% of victims of crime surveyed were either satisfied or completely satisfied by the

service provided by the Constabulary. Further surveys will focus on other categories of people, 5370

such as witnesses, as well as victims of crime.

Aside from the statistics, the Chief Constable’s Report also highlights acts of excellence and

remarkable bravery by police officers, support officers and members of the public. The Report

highlights the Chief Constable’s Certificate of Merit being awarded to 20 police officers, two

members of police support staff and two members of the public, along with the Chief Constable’s 5375

Commendation being awarded to a further 18 police officers.

The Constabulary will strive towards achieving its goals by balancing a rigorous approach to

combating serious and organised crime against the other duties the Constabulary undertakes in

meeting local concerns. The approach of the Constabulary will continue to concentrate on the

people who pose a significant risk to the public and ensure that they are arrested and convicted. 5380

Conversely, the Constabulary will also focus on protecting those who are the most vulnerable,

as well as ensuring a visible presence in prioritised locations. This includes regular visits to

schools, nursing homes and other individuals to ensure the continual building of trust between the

community and our officers and a determination to prevent crime as well as detect it.

Madam President, page 64 also refers to the Inclusion Report and I commend the Constabulary 5385

for reaching into parts of our community that may, in the past, have not had good relations with

the Police. They have sought out the challenge and are using this input to constantly improve what

they do and how they do it.

Madam President, this model of policing has been shown to be successful and responsive to the

needs of the Island. These low levels of crime contribute to the Island’s high quality of life, a key 5390

driver of the continuing economic success we enjoy.

I join the Chief Constable in being impressed by the Constabulary’s attitude and commitment

to their diverse and demanding roles. These successes are achieved by the hard work and

dedicated efforts of 236 police officers and a further 142 special constables, support staff and

community volunteers. At a cost of 45 pence per day for each resident of this Island, I suggest that 5395

they represent excellent value for money.

Madam President, I beg to move that the Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 be

received.

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. 5400



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The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Houghton. 5405

Mr Houghton: I thank you, Madam President, and I thank the Hon. Minister for moving the

Report this evening, the Chief Constable’s Annual Report.

It is Chief Constable Roberts’ first Annual Report. I would like to congratulate the Chief

Constable for bringing a factual Report, easy to read, with figures in the Report which I think are 5410

auditable and believable. So I commend the Chief Constable for that. That was not the case in

previous years.

Madam President, if I may just go through the Report, there are just one or two points of

interest that I think affect the public and also affect the Police.

Turning first to the Chief Constable’s letter to the Minister on page 2, he mentions a very stark 5415

and worrying situation, of course, that two thirds of the Isle of Man Constabulary will now have to

work for as long as 40 years before they receive a pension. That is very serious, Hon. Members. It

is a situation that we are all in because of these sad times, but there are two elements of our public

sector – servants to our public sector – that really cannot work until they are 60 and beyond 60

years of age. 5420

Previously, a constable would retire at the age of 50 and receive a pension – a pension that he

actually paid in contributions of almost 12% out of his earnings all the way along so that they

could retire earlier. The purpose of a police officer retiring earlier is obvious: because he cannot

fight out on the street when he is over age, unless he is very fortunate with his heath, and even

then it is not on to see police officers on the front line working until they are 60. It just is not on, 5425

yet they are going to have to do that for an extra 10 years in order to get their pension after 40

years of service.

It is very serious. I would ask the Minister and the Council of Ministers to take this away. I

know they are saying this happens in the United Kingdom – I am not concerned with the United

Kingdom; I am concerned here. A police officer with that amount of devotion to duty needs to be 5430

protected.

Just moving off the Annual Report for a moment, the other sector, of course is our prison

officers. They need to be protected too. You cannot have an older sector of prison officers who are

fighting, or facing violence at any point in time in the Isle of Man Prison. It is unacceptable, so

what can be done when we have not got the money? The answer is we have got to work on 5435

something and find a way forward. It is vitally important.

At the moment, the effect is not there, because those who signed up before the late 1980s-

1990s have got a short number of years’ service where they will retire after 30 years of service.

This only affects the short-to-medium service individuals in the Force.

It is a vitally important point and I would just like the Minister to take it away, because you 5440

just cannot… you are not in a position, generally speaking, to be fighting with individuals on the

front line at such a late age. That will lead to injuries and all sorts of other problems, affecting

Health, Social Services and so on, for those officers who are injured, so it is only fool’s gold that it

is a saving on one side in order to be faced with ongoing budgetary problems later. I cannot stress

enough on this. 5445

Talking about budgets, just touching on that, the Chief Constable does say that if the Police

budget continues to diminish in the way that it has over the life of the last three-year budget, then

to continue the current model of neighbourhood policing will become unsustainable. I think, Hon.

Members, that is the pinnacle of whether we provide, in the Isle of Man, a safe and secure

environment for our people, or otherwise. (A Member: Hear, hear.) 5450

I do not know if all Hon. Members had been to the talk by the previous Chief Constable, when

he explained the Police retracting their services, first with the smaller police stations, which has

already happened, then it would be on divisions. If we take divisions – relating to Ramsey, the

south, Peel and so on – the next fallback you will see is the withdrawal of police officers working

from those three satellite stations, those divisions, as we say – that is the next step – and just 5455

having police officers working from Douglas, which is totally unacceptable.

Currently – just dealing with that – there are a number of areas where the Chief Constable has

had to contain expenses currently, one of which is mileage for police patrol vehicles. They are

now consigned to 30 miles per duty.

That is nothing new. The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt, will remember in the mid-1980s 5460

mileage was curtailed by all. In fact, I always recall – I was a special constable at that time –

working with two very prominent PCs, who both became sergeants shortly afterwards – when they

arrested a burglar they had chased all around the place… [Inaudible] there were an awful lot of


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burglaries in the mid-1980s – less now; I hope that remains so. They brought this burglar in, and

the boss said to them – he was not interested in the burglar and the fact that they had managed to 5465

achieve their task – ‘How many miles did you take?’ ‘Oh, we went about five miles over duty.’

Well, they were almost disciplined for going five miles over their given allocation of mileage

driving vehicles.

So this has happened… This is the whole issue coming round again, as I see it, in the Isle of

Man Constabulary, whereby the cuts that are happening, which hopefully will be temporary, 5470

actually affect real policing, and it is very tightly monitored and I am sure it will be this particular

time.

The worries I have, of course, because the Police budget really – I think it is 80% or 90% of

the Police budget – is wages. The rest is running vehicles and the operation of police IT,

networking and police stations, which as we know are beginning to close stage by stage. 5475

The issue I have on policing is – I hope we do not; I hope it never happens, but it could happen

and, sod’s law, it is likely to happen – if you get a difficult-to-solve murder, that could run you…

and I do not know, but I could give you a starter for 10. That could cost you anything up to

£100,000 per week. Certainly look at it in that particular area. That has to be spent on a difficult-

to-solve murder, one where you may require additional police forces from the United Kingdom to 5480

come over here to assist. Hopefully not, but certainly in the case of EJ’s nightclub, when that

whole issue was a major crime scene, loads of search teams, and of course you had firearms teams

working pro tem, 24/7. If you had an issue like that, you could be looking at £100,000 additional

pay for the additional work that needs doing by the Force.

Where is that money going to come from? The Minister would have to come back to here for 5485

it, but first he has to visit the Treasury Minister, and I hope the Treasury Minister is in a position

to hear what I am saying now. There is one area that the Treasury Minister needs to support at all

times, and that is law and order on the Isle of Man, or we will have anarchy, and I will be looking

to the Treasury Minister to say to his colleague, the Minister for Home Affairs, that should that

happen the support will be there. It is vitally important that that is in place. It is vitally important, 5490

whether you like or loathe the Police, that law and order is supported at all times, and that is where

I feel that we must not allow things to go awry whilst we have got budget cuts. I do hope these

serious offences do not come about, but they could, and the support has to be there at all times.

Madam President, I would just like to skip through one or two other items in the Report and

just make some comment, not necessarily anything of particular criticism in the Report, but where 5495

other agencies in Government need to assist the Isle of Man Constabulary in helping them running

their costs down, and I will touch on a few of them.

First, I note that drugs seizures went up from 2010-11 at £153,000, to 2012-13 at £508,000. It

has gone up almost by four times this number: £500,000, and that is drugs that were actually

seized. Commendable by the drugs squad officers for doing that – or the different name they have, 5500

but they do the same thing, those officers. Of course, that money eventually ends up in the Seized

Assets Fund, hopefully to be used and to be given to the likes of the DASH charity, to help do

their work in sustaining… the drug use in the first place. But that is worrying, because how much

were the drugs coming through the Island that have not been seized and brought to book? So we

certainly have a serious problem there – the knock-on effects along Social Services, before you 5505

look anywhere else.

Moving slightly down, when you look at the use of mobile phones whilst driving, they are

sustained from 2010-11 to 132 offences disclosed, 138 the following year, and slightly up – to 156

– the following year. That is dangerous, driving when you are using a mobile phone, but it has got

one stage worse, and I would invite the Minister to state whether he is going to bring forward any 5510

sort of legislation now to deal with not just answering the mobile phone – which is there now; that

is already in legislation – but texting, driving along and texting on your mobile phone. That is

what is happening now and I am sure all Hon. Members of this Court will see it happening

themselves. That is much more dangerous than actually using a mobile phone to just communicate

orally. Texting on a mobile phone is highly dangerous and that needs to be stopped. 5515

Moving down: vehicle tyre offences. Here is another hint on the situation where people

obviously cannot afford to renew their tyres. Vehicle tyre offences disclosed in 2010-11, 50; the

following year, 58; and the year after that, which is this last year, reportable at 115. So it has

doubled. If you walk around and look at people’s cars, you see worn tyres, another extremely

dangerous situation where people are trying to get every last bit out of their cars, and that is going 5520

to cause more accidents. So, whilst we have austere times we are going to have more accidents,

more injuries, and therefore more cost on those associated Government Departments that have all

of that.


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Madam President, I am just moving on a bit further into this, and I would like now to turn to

the work of the Coroner of Inquests, and in fact, on the Police side of things, his Coroner’s officer. 5525

The Coroner’s officer, for those who do not know who he or she is, is an officer who works and

supports the Coroner will all the paperwork as regards police work, dealing with a sudden death.

So, when a sudden death occurs, the uniformed police arrive, they do their work as well as

investigating the situation and deciding, in the case of a sudden death, whether it is suspicious or

otherwise, and then of course deciding… [Inaudible] 5530

The person who supports the Coroner is the Coroner’s officer, and at the bottom of page 40 the

Chief Constable makes quite interesting comment in a couple of paragraphs, where he states:

‘… he investigates sudden or unexpected deaths to a greater degree than has previously been the case’

– because of changes in procedures and practices.

He goes on to say:

‘In the year there was a 31% increase in the number of deaths that resulted in post mortem examination and a near

doubling in the number of Inquests. One officer is allocated to this work on a full-time basis and his workload is fast becoming unmanageable.’

I would fully support the Chief Constable’s concerns on this particular issue, because this 5535

issue… Post-Shipman – or pre-Shipman, I would say, in the old days, when someone was found

dead at home – and I am talking about natural-cause death at home – the local doctor would come

out and say, ‘Yes,’ examine the person… obviously, he would sign the certificate that a death had

occurred and, because he had treated them almost certainly during his or her life, the doctor would

be quite happy to provide a signature for the body to be released to the undertaker. 5540

Post-Shipman, of course, that was changed and of course since then, since those days, we now

have a situation whereby you have GP practices and so on, and police surgeons are usually sent for

now to see where a body is found and usually that police surgeon, that medical professional, has

no idea of who the particular deceased is. Because of that, the body then is sent to the mortuary for

a post mortem. 5545

This is where the problems begin. If I just examine the area of cases of post mortems for those

who are natural causes, because most are, a growing number of post mortems are done on natural-

cause patients to find – and there is no way you can get round this –

The President: Hon. Member, could you just perhaps come to how this either supports or not 5550

the Chief Constable’s Report?

Mr Houghton: Yes, it is, and I will elaborate on that in a minute, Madam President.

This is an area where there is a wider approach to the Police – and I will make this clear shortly

– where the Police require extra – 5555

The President: Shortly would be good.


5560

The Minister: I am aware of it.

Mr Houghton: Madam President, so what happens to this? We have a post mortem. The

pathologist then reports to the Coroner or his officer. The Coroner then releases the body and

issues a certificate of that, but the certificate is then taken to the General Registry by the next of 5565

kin through the Coroner’s officer. The General Registry have to… Before you go to the General

Registry these days, you have to book an appointment. That could be two or three days, or more.

Those officers are still supporting the next of kin in this particular area. Then, the General Registry

of course will issue a death certificate and also will issue a body release document to take to the

undertaker for the undertaker to take to the mortuary. 5570

Look at all of this nonsense that is going on here. The undertaker then cannot go to the

mortuary to get the body outside business hours. That is an absolute nonsense, because the

mortuary accepts bodies at any time. Why can’t it release one to the undertaker outside business

hours – this all adds delay and all adds pressure on the Coroner’s officer, who is doing his or her

job as well as possible – in order to free up that time? 5575

I say this and I ask those who have responsibilities in other areas to look at this in this way in

order to free up the frustration of the release of bodies who have died of natural causes. Why


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should the Coroner be involved in a natural-cause death? The body can go to a post mortem and

the pathologist should simply release the body and the document himself – he is an independent

person – so those go straight to the undertaker, just like happens in Noble’s Hospital when you 5580

have a natural-cause death there. That would cut out an enormous amount of work for the

Coroner’s officer, and other people too, in order to make things much more streamlined.

For those Hon. Members who have responsibility for these areas… and I am looking at the

Department of Health and I am looking at the Treasury in respect of the issues of the registration

of deaths and to make things easier, because at that time people do want a little bit of sympathy 5585

and support. They do not have it, and they come out highly frustrated. Something must be done

about it, but that whole issue there, a change in procedure would take an awful lot away from the

Coroner’s officer, and rather than the Chief Constable having, as he is reporting in his Report here,

two officers doing the work, one would do it. The saving of time of one officer is an awful lot of

time, and it is big money. 5590

Madam President, I would like to almost conclude on the Report side of it by turning to page

56 and dealing with those missing persons who are missing from home, and in particular – and this

is for the Minister for Social Care now to look at this – those missing from care homes. Even in

my time in the Special Constabulary, there was an enormous amount of time taken dealing with

missing-from-homes from care homes – that is people missing from care homes who the 5595

Department, or the taxpayer, is paying for their care 24/7.

So how is it that there are so many people going missing from home and care homes? In 2010-

11 there were 176 missing-from-homes in that particular year; the following year, it went down to

116; but in this last year it has risen to an incredible 361 occurrences of missing from home.

Madam President, as you know, there was a Commission of Inquiry into young people that was 5600

undertaken. Social Services were severely criticised for what they… not did do, but what they did

not do.

I see here so many people being on the run from the local care home, going up from 116 last

year to 361 this year. (A Member: Cases.) Separate occurrences. It is probably only half a dozen

or more of the same ones running off all the time, but if we do not watch out, Madam President, 5605

what we are going to have is another issue of what I call ‘fool’s gold’ – areas where they think

they are… [Inaudible] if the Department of Social Care have relaxed in the way that they monitor

the care homes that they pay for through our taxpayers’ money to be run, there are going to be

more fatalities in there, like the double murder that happened 10 years or so ago. What will happen

about that? It will be a tragedy and it will cause a Commission of Inquiry again to be run – on 5610

lessons that were meant to have been learned 10 to 12 years ago.

What I say here is the amount of Police time searching for these 361 separate cases of… I do

not know, six, 10, 12 of the same individuals… The amount of Police time spent there could be

saved – that is the issue to do with the Isle of Man Constabulary – if your care homes, Mr

Robertshaw, were looking after their clients properly. It is quite obvious that they are not, and I 5615

would ask you to look at that, because you are paying for it through our money and I do not think

you would be pleased to hear that, and I would ask you to take that on. That will save wasted

police time, which would allow the Police to have more time then, doing their job properly, rather

than chasing these young monkeys about.

Finally, Madam President, I would like to thank our local constables, Mike Taylor and 5620

Andrew Lloyd, at Willaston Police Station. I hope the Minister keeps the police station open,

because it is very close to Police Headquarters and a very useful adjunct to Police Headquarters.

A final note to all Hon. Members: you really do need to see… Those of you who have not been

out with the Police really should make an effort and go out with your local constable at least once

a year. You would learn an enormous amount; and also, where the Police operate on morale, it 5625

builds their morale up no end when they see an interest by Members of this Court going out with

them and learning and finding out just what is happening. But whilst you are out on that duty for

that particular evening, it is amazing what else you pick up about what is going on and typical

goings-on out on the street and so on. So it is well worth it. I thank the Police for looking after me

when I go out with them. I go once a year. Once a year is enough, but do it once a year. 5630

I thank you, Madam President.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Quayle.

Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 5635

Just a couple of queries, really, but first of all may I say to the Minister, to take back to his

colleagues in the Police Force, a big ‘well done’ from this Court. We have a Police Force to be

proud of. Our crime is down, the sickness for the time off in the Police Force is down, and to top it


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1670 T130

all we have our first Manx-born Chief Constable. So a really good-news story for our Police

Force. Well done, everyone there. 5640

I have two comments that I just wanted to clarify. First of all, the cost per day of the Police

Force, Minister, and you said in your opening speech that it was 45 pence per day; yet in your

Report to us in June 2013, in the foreword by the Minister for Home Affairs, you say it is 50 pence

per day. That is only £1.4 million difference, but maybe that is where you can save your budget.

5645

The Minister: We have made savings.

Mr Quayle: I work it out at about 46 pence on £85,000. But anyway, just for clarification on

that.

The second point, and just a little bit of concern, again in your forward: 5650

‘With potentially fewer officers going forward, we will need to be realistic of our expectations of the Police and the service they deliver.’

And obviously that is a cause of concern for all members of the public on the Isle of Man, who 5655

want to see as many police out on the beat as possible – a high presence.

I have to admit that I am a lay person. I do not understand the exact workings of the Police

Force, but I do have quite a few retired senior police officers in my constituency and I was just

wondering – again, I am a lay member – but are we top heavy on our chiefs-to-indians ratio? We

have 178 constables and 38 sergeants, which is about 4.6% constables to every sergeant, and on 5660

top of that we have 14 inspectors, three chief inspectors and two superintendents.

I do not know how that compares with a small island force elsewhere in a population – if we

are able to compare that. I know in the UK it might be unfair to compare it, but I was just

wondering whether or not any work has been done to see whether our ratio is correct on the Island,

because obviously it costs an awful lot more to employ a superintendent than a bobby on the beat. 5665

So that is all. Other than that, fantastic news. A really good Report and long may it continue

like that. Thank you.

The President: The Lord Bishop.

5670

The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Madam President.

I share, along with everybody else in this Court, congratulations to the Chief Constable, his

predecessor and the whole Force.

I am interested in the statistics for stop searches, which have gone up from 358 to 563 – gone

up every month except September and February. I do not have a problem with that; I am just 5675

interested to know and wonder whether the Minister might ask the Chief Constable whether he

knows if there is some trend in society that has caused the increase in stop searches.

The President: The Hon. Member for Rushen, Mr Skelly.

5680


I think, like the previous three speakers, I would like to congratulate the Manx Police chief as

well. Certainly a job well done. Reducing crime with a reducing budget is very impressive indeed.

I would also like to applaud the Report. I think it is well laid out, as Mr Houghton stated, and I

would like to single out and applaud the Youth Justice Team. A very short life they have had. I 5685

think they were created in 2011, but they are gaining very real and positive results. Their positive

work is about engaging young people and helping them reduce reoffending, and here you have

true joined-up Government. It is led by the Police, but you have got Social Care involved, you

have also got, I believe, DED involved, and it is a multi-agency force that is being very, very

effective. I want to call upon the Minister to ensure that they continue to be resourced. Quite 5690

frankly, I do think we need to think about a lesson learned about joined-up Government and how

to work here – so food for thought.

As identified, I think, by again Mr Houghton, drugs crime is still a real major problem for this

Island. You have only got to look at the Prison records, really; it is literally full of people

convicted on drugs or related crimes. Are the Police doing a good job? The seizures would say so, 5695

but look at the growth in seizures. It is over £½ million seized there. This is big money, big

business and even bigger profits for these criminals, and these criminals are destroying people’s

lives.


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1671 T130

I fully agree with the seized assets principle. I want to ensure that we maintain zero tolerance

and capitalise on capturing those proceeds of crime, and that money should continue to do good in 5700

terms of crime prevention, education and rehabilitation. Or why not compensate the victims of

crime? I think it is a good deterrent and a benefit to society.

Financial and high-tech crime: I think it is an area we need to be very conscious of here on the

Isle of Man because of our finance industry. White-collar crime is very often not regarded as the

same as other crimes, but it is equally as important as drugs, in my book. We have had some high-5705

profile convictions and that is fantastic news quite frankly, and I think it is a great message to send

across the world that the Isle of Man does not welcome these people and we will put them away.

We had some mention with regard to the Prison Service. Now, there is a very difficult budget

to meet here. Reducing the number of prisoners will reduce your bottom line. I believe at last

count it was £72,000 per year per prisoner. I would like to see an increase of community service 5710

orders – constructive sentences. There is certainly plenty to be done. It would improve self-worth

and create a community payback, not to mention saving money.

We have heard a lot about neighbourhood policing. What a potential great loss that would be. I

have to say that I have my concerns too, but of course my hon. friend, colleague and Minister in

Rushen will understand that we have very good neighbourhood policing in Rushen. We have 5715

already got one surplus redundant police station. Are we going to have a second one? An element

of our society is very vulnerable and their biggest concern is the response time.

Mr Houghton talks about Willaston being close to the main headquarters. My concern is what

will it be like in Rushen? What will it be like in Bride or elsewhere on the Island?

5720

Mr Quirk: Or Onchan, where we have not got them.

Mr Skelly: Even Onchan.

I am concerned with regard to the response time and I have to say that neighbourhood policing

is working very well. It is part of the community, part of the fabric of the communities. 5725

I know that we are working on a number of initiatives, one of which is we are trying to create a

youth café, where we are not just working with the Police – we are working with the Youth

Services, we are working with the traders, we are working with the commissioners and us, MHKs,

and that was actually driven by neighbourhood policing. So they are working on initiatives that I

think are going to be productive in keeping crime reduced. 5730

So the question I have for the Minister would be with regard to budget cuts, and I understand

you are under pressure, but where else have they reviewed? Is the Police budget proportionally cut

across his Department, and why does he identify… or rather the Chief Constable mentioned

neighbourhood policing… What other areas were considered? Crime may be reducing, but I do

believe it could easily increase if response times are increased. 5735

Lastly, I would just like to comment on some of the key objectives that it says in the back here.

It says:

‘helping modernise the criminal justice system;’

– or per se Legal Aid savings –

‘improving our use of technology;’

There are savings to be achieved there without a shadow of a doubt. And the last one:

‘seeking and embracing greater scrutiny;’

I am delighted to hear that from the Police and I think all of Government should welcome that. 5740

Gura mie eu.

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Hall.

Mr Hall: Thank you, Madam President. 5745

Just to add some comments of mine to the debate, first of all I have looked at this Report and

analysed it. I would like to commend the Chief Constable for his frankness in the Annual Report

and reflecting the true position. I think he has expressed some concerns at the direction that he

may well have to take the Force due to the budgetary pressures that are on him, and I think that

should cause us all to look a little bit more closely. 5750


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1672 T130

Just turning to what Mr Houghton said about retiring police officers being expected to go up to

the age of 60. What I would be interested to know from the Minister when he does sum up is how

that is going to translate in reality? Are they going to be taken into or moved into some sort of a

support role at a certain age, because I think having police officers out on the street at the age of

60 is just ridiculous. I do not think… that just surely cannot be what is actually going to be 5755

planned. So I would be interested to know what precisely the plan is as far as this new measure

which is on the horizon.

One of the concerns, as far as the Constabulary, is obviously they have had to accommodate

cuts, which the Chief Constable said are equal to or larger than those seen in policing in other

jurisdictions. I think it does open the debate about funding for law and order and how it is just 5760

being perceived as a column on the Treasury Minister’s books, because my view is… as we look

at neighbourhood policing, for example, which is a concern of mine, as with other Hon. Members,

and the Chief Constable obviously points directly to it in saying:

‘Neighbourhood policing will be unsustainable if projected budgets become reality. There are a number of ways in

which the Isle of Man could be policed. However, the current model, which balances neighbourhood policing with the

need to address serious and organised crime and the Isle of Man’s international obligations on financial crime, seems to me to be the right one.’

It is quite clear that if the cuts become reality, then it is going to go. It is not sour grapes; it is

the truth. I would challenge anybody or any Minister to put up a fact that would contradict that. 5765

But I think we are moving where we may be expecting the Constabulary to somewhat police the

Island with inadequate meaningful resources in the future, which in turn could lead to ineffective

policing. Policing is not just about bobbies on the street.

As the Minister knows only too well, one of my concerns is cybercrime – high-tech crime.

That is going to be a huge drain and a huge priority for the Police in the years to come, and yet 5770

they are just way behind the curve. They do not have the resources to do the training. The high

tech unit that is in the Constabulary has got two officers only. They are doing a lot with the skills

and their training, but there is a lot more training that they can do and probably should be doing.

They are in a room which is just a box room. In my own personal opinion, it is not fit for purpose.

It is does not have workshops. I think that should be looked at for the future, given that this area is 5775

only going to increase.

So when we are talking about funding and the resources going to the Police, it is well proven in

many parts of the world that more resources and using them effectively does lead to effective

policing, the reverse being true. So I think we are somewhat in danger of going backwards if we

are not very careful. So I do have concerns about the neighbourhood issue. I would be interested if 5780

the Minister could expand on that somewhat in his summing up.

Then I would like to move on to the other Report to do with mental health. Mental health is

another big issue for the Constabulary. The Chief Constable, on page 39 and page 40, and with the

statistics on page 58… what he is saying here is effectively that reductions in service provision

amongst partner agencies have had an impact on the demands of this kind. So we have had… and 5785

of course, the Police being the front line, it just automatically then goes and falls to the Police to

pick everything up.

Of course, the Police have got large budgetary cuts and they are seeing a significant increase in

these issues and are being expected to deal with them, being the front line. It is, as the Chief

Constable has said in the Report here, which is of concern… it is a daily occurrence for officers. 5790

The data is only telling part of the story because, as the Chief Constable again says, it fails to show

the drain on police resources that mental health issues bring. I know, from going out with the

Police, that this is a significant issue for them, yet there just does not seem to be… I have not yet

seen any sort of a direction to be able to deal with this, because again it is all about resources.

So I do not feel that really we are putting enough resources into this, into law and order, and in 5795

the Inclusion Report that was given, it says there very clearly that one in four people will

experience a mental health problem during their lifetime – a quarter – and so we are talking about

potentially significant numbers of people that this is going to be an issue for. And so, if the

Minister can also just touch on that I would be very grateful, regarding mental health and how he

is proposing to tackle that issue. 5800

As far as the statistics themselves, and I have said this in the past – that, really, I think we

should… Yes, they are important. I would support the Chief Constable, who has been on record as

saying stop chasing statistics, because one of the problems that we have in the Isle of Man, as far

as statistics, is that we have got, in each of these areas… when we start breaking things down with

law and order, we end up with such a small sample that we cannot really, in many cases, start 5805

drawing meaningful conclusions because the sample size is simply too small in some cases. In


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1673 T130

many cases we are just down to single figures. So yes, they are important, but I do feel we need to

treat it with a lot of caution because of the very small sample size. I hope that the Minister,

certainly as an accountant, would agree with me on that, and I am confident that the Chief

Constable would also support me in saying that, as far as the statistics. 5810

So, looking at the statistics, one of the ones that does have… it is in terms of the detection rate,

which is quite low, is rape – a very serious offence – and I would be interested with what the

Police… That is on page 34, with the detection rate obviously being 21% in one year, 11.1% and

then we are down to 10%. So that is just something that really popped out, and I would like the

Minister to explain what measures are actively being taken with regard to that and why those 5815

detection rates are low.

I think that is about everything that… I do not think I have got anything else that I want to say

and so I am going to leave my comments at that. I will just look forward to the Minister’s

response, and if there is anything else I will take it up with him in due course.

I do commend the Chief Constable in the Report as a whole, and as I said before, his frankness 5820

in just laying the picture as it is has, I think, been very good.

Thank you very much, Madam President.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey.

5825


I will be brief. There is just one point that I want to pick up. I think one of the most potential

serious causes of road traffic incidents is use of mobile phones when driving. I am sure everyone

every day sees people in cars and lorries using their mobile phones when they are driving.

The Hon. Member for North Douglas mentioned the numbers of prosecutions which are shown 5830

in the Chief Constable’s Report for the last few years, and I think there were well over 100 each

year. I have asked why there are now no police prosecutions for this offence and I was told that

there was a fault in the legislation. If that is right, the first question is what is the error and why did

it take several years to realise this?

If this is correct, is the Minister going to bring forward an urgent amendment to legislation to 5835

regularise the law? Is this problem also present in the law in nearby jurisdictions? I certainly think,

if there is a problem, this does need to be sorted out because the Police are being seriously

hampered in their duties.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Ronan. 5840


I do not want to go into detail, as other Members have well covered that this evening. I would,

though, like to compliment the Chief Constable on the continuing success across his organisation,

detailed in this comprehensive and very digestible document, as Mr Houghton quite rightly said. 5845

I am very supportive of our Police Force. I think we all are. I believe that one of the greatest

contributions that they make to the Island is in the area of quality of life. I know that so many

people, in particular families and older people who live here do so largely because of the safety

and security of our communities. We must therefore be careful not to limit the capabilities of the

Police. We have an excellent Force. We have a great foundation left by the previous Chief 5850

Constable Mike Langdon, and this is being built further on by our current Chief Constable,

Gary Roberts.

I will be honest, though: I am concerned about the recent publicity suggesting that we may

make cuts to our policing, particularly the neighbourhood policing, which is contributing a

disproportionately high amount to the safety and security of our communities and something that 5855

is important in my constituency, as it is across the Island.

So I would like to compliment and congratulate the Chief Constable and the whole of the Isle

of Man Constabulary on their recent work and hope that they will continue to go from strength to

strength, even though there will be some inevitable challenges ahead. They will need our support.



The Minister: Thank you very much, Madam President.

It was a myriad of points there, and I will try and go through them as efficiently as I possibly 5865

can. (A Member: Hear, hear.)


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1674 T130

Both Mr Houghton and Mr Hall raised the issue of police pension changes. These, of course,

are as a result of the Windsor Report, and many in this Chamber will know that the Police have

had full reciprocity with the UK on pay and conditions for many decades – a choice made by the

Police themselves. 5870

We do recognise the challenges raised and continue to work with the Police Federation and the

Chief Constable to work this through on whether that model is sustainable into the future for the

Manx Force.

In terms of neighbourhood policing, this has been a flagship policy for the Island and I look

forward to discussing its relative merits with my Council of Ministers colleagues in the current 5875

budget round.

Mr Houghton has identified the impact quite correctly about what the impact will be to

neighbourhoods on the Island and the potential for no night cover outside of Douglas, and 90% of

our budget is staff. But one thing I will take exception to, or disagree with Mr Houghton on, is that

cuts are not temporary. This is the new world that we are living in. The challenge is to design 5880

services that are sustainable and will last into the long term and not to just treat our present

financial difficulties as a minor aberration that will go away given a little bit of time – and that is a

fundamental mindset that we all have to adopt in this Chamber. The tough decisions that will face

all of us down the line is balancing up those priorities. Is it neighbourhood policing? It is waiting

lists? Is it care beds? These are not easy choices that we face going forward. 5885

In terms of the response times, it was quite telling that the awards given to officers who have

provided life-saving CPR whilst an ambulance has been able to come from wherever it is

stationed, and that alludes to the quality of life I think Mr Ronan was referring to. There is no

doubt that neighbourhood policing does add a value and a quality of service beyond simply crime

reduction. 5890

Mr Singer and Mr Houghton also raised the issue of driving whilst using a mobile phone,

including the issue of texting. We are working with the Department of Infrastructure to update the

legislation in this area. This is an absolute bugbear of mine as well. As I walk up the road to

Homefield in the morning and see people in the queue of traffic snaking down to Douglas, sitting

there either texting or on the phone, it really does annoy me. So we will continue to work with our 5895

colleagues at the Department of Infrastructure on this issue.

Mr Houghton raises further the issue of the Coroner’s officer, and he went into the process at

great length. I am aware of these concerns, and I will take that issue away and include it in the list

of business processes to be part of the Criminal Justice Strategy, because I too have had

constituents becoming aware of delays in this process but not really knowing why. I am aware that 5900

the Coroner has changed his requirement for more post mortems on unexpected deaths, even

though they might be natural causes. So that is a judicial matter, but what we can do certainly is to

look at the processes to see if they as efficient as they possibly can be, and that is something I will

give Hon. Members an undertaking to review.

Also, the issue of chasing missing children does not add value, and I will pick that up with the 5905

Police, as well as with officers in Social Care to see if there is more that both of us can be doing to

try and minimise this problem in the first place.

Finally, on Mr Houghton’s remarks, I would concur that neighbourhood policing is well worth

seeing at first hand, for those of you who have not yet had the opportunity. I know I certainly

learned a lot going out with the Force of a nighttime, both in my local area and in Douglas, and not 5910

just learning about the community that we live in but also about the people that we recruit and

train to become police officers, and I have been, at every single instance, impressed with their

performance.

I thank Mr Quayle for his positive comments. Is the structure top heavy? We have reviewed

this and it continues to be under review. There are statutory duties that are placed on certain 5915

officers up through the rank structure and certain things that have to… certain Chinese walls that

have to be created within the Force as well. That makes slimming the structure complicated, but it

is something that is continually monitored and that is why, at the moment, we have two

superintendents rather than a Deputy Chief Constable, because we felt that we could sustain that

model. 5920

In terms of the Lord Bishop’s queries about stop searches, I am afraid I do not know the

answer to that one, but I will pick that up with the Police and ensure he gets an answer to that.

Turning to the comments of my friend and colleague from Rushen, Mr Skelly, the Youth

Justice Team especially is absolutely a success and I would commend their annual report to Hon.

Members’ reading. It is inspirational, the work that they do between the work that is put in by 5925

Health, Social Care and Economic Development in giving young people the opportunity to turn

around their lives, and our support from the Department and the Police is unstinting.


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1675 T130

The drugs issue, again, is a big one. It is an ongoing one and one that we do take seriously. In

terms of the points about compensating victims, there is already the Criminal Injuries

Compensation Scheme for those who are victims of violent crime. As I say, the role of the Seized 5930

Assets Fund is to provide funding for initiatives that will further reduce crime in that area.

Mr Skelly raised the issue of the Financial Crime Unit and it is safe to say that never before has

the role of the Financial Crime Unit been more in the international spotlight and combined with

the efforts across, and again DED, Treasury, Chief Secretary’s Office and the Department of

Home Affairs are continuing to stay on top of the ever-changing world that is countering financial 5935

terrorism. The Financial Crime Unit do a great job in keeping up with the enforcement of that and,

as the Hon. Member has identified, we have had some pretty high-profile cases here on that, which

quite underlines the fact that the Isle of Man takes white-collar crime extremely seriously and it

will not be tolerated for the sake of our international reputation.

With regard to community service, the Hon. Member here is pushing on an open door. Reading 5940

our Criminal Justice Strategy, you will see how restorative justice is one of the key elements of

that. Community service, we are already doing. We need to be doing more to give that sentencing

option and do more to encourage that as an option. It is something that we will be continuing to

work at as the strategy develops and is put into practice.

Starting to address the issues raised by Mr Hall, who is also, of course, the Chairman of the 5945

Police Advisory Group, along with Mr Singer and Mr Ronan, who on a regular basis take the

Police to task in holding them to account as part of that body, along with non-Tynwald members. I

would just like to pause and thank them for that work that they do for the Department over the

course of the year.

The issue raised by cybercrime again is a big issue. It is an expensive and intensive one, and it 5950

does demand a response that sits beyond just simply an operational one within the Constabulary.

So we pick that up with the National Strategy Group and consider an approach that joins up with

the UK, because this really is an international issue and it is something that is not going to be

tackled by the Isle of Man Constabulary on its own.

I would also concur with the comments about mental health being a very difficult theme and a 5955

very difficult issue. The Police is often the service of last resort when people are in difficulty out

of hours, early in the morning and at weekends. I am not using this as a plea for more resources in

this area. You do need to make quite important decisions about the impact of the services and the

reconfiguring of services and, in the same way as I addressed the earlier issue, there are elements

of mutual assistance there between Departments and we need to make sure that that is working as 5960

effectively as possible for the good of all of our people.

In terms of the detection rate for sexual offences, I am afraid again I do not have an answer.

Perhaps that is something that the Hon. Member can pick up with his role within the Police

Advisory Group with the Chief Constable during their regular meetings.

I pick up the point made by Mr Ronan, and just perhaps to start summing up, echo my 5965

congratulations for Mike Langdon OBE, for his work that he did with the Manx Force and for the

Manx community. That is a baton that has voluntarily handed on to his successor, Gary Roberts,

who I know all in this Court are delighted with being the first Manx Chief Constable on this

Island. The Chief Constable is fitting into the job extremely well. There is a very positive working

relationship within the Department and I commend him for the work that he is doing. (Two 5970

Members: Hear, hear.)

To sum up, neighbourhood policing has been something we have got used to in the time that it

has been around. It has been a mainstay of Manx policing and it does add, as Mr Ronan said, to the

quality of life here on the Isle of Man.

Reduced budgets, however, are here to stay. We need to make sure, as the Council of 5975

Ministers, that we are careful about the policy decisions we make and we design services that are

holistic in nature, and in the cutbacks, that we know are going to have to happen, make sure that

we balance these out to ensure that we do not leave the most vulnerable without the support that

they need. That is a common goal across all of Government and that is something that we will

continue to talk about as the Council of Ministers. 5980

So with that I would like to thank Hon. Members for their contributions and beg to move,

Madam President.

The President: The motion is that the Chief Constable’s Annual Report 2012-13 be received.

Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. 5985



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1676 T130


FOR Mr Quirk Mr Hall Mr Karran Mr Ronan Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Singer Mr Quayle Mr Teare Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mr Henderson Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

AGAINST None

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys, 22 votes for, none against.


FOR Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Coleman

AGAINST None

The President: In the Council, 8 votes for, none against. The motion therefore carries.

Public Accounts Committee

Report on the Commercialisation of the TT:

Contract Negotiations and Contract Management, 2005 to 2012

Report received and recommendations approved

11. The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Cannan) to move:

That the Report on the Commercialisation of the TT: Contract Negotiations and Contract

Management, 2005 to 2012 [PP No 0078/13] [as laid before Tynwald on 21st May 2013] be

received and that the following recommendations be approved -

Recommendation 1

That Treasury should continue to monitor and assess the use of FD8 waivers on a regular

basis particularly in light of this case.

Recommendation 2

That the Council of Ministers and the Treasury should consider what additional enforcement

mechanisms could be put in place to ensure that Departments and Boards comply with any

terms and conditions associated with FD8 waivers, and report to Tynwald by October 2013.

Recommendation 3

That the Treasury should review what more can be done to ensure best practice in

procurement undertaken by all Departments, Boards and Offices (whether or not such

procurement is undertaken through Procurement Shared Services) and report to Tynwald by

October 2013.


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1677 T130

Recommendation 4

That Ministers and senior civil servants should be made aware of the risks presented by such

fundamental relationship breakdowns in the working environment and that procedures should

be put in place to ensure that such matters should be reported to the Chief Secretary for

immediate investigation.

Recommendation 5

That the Council of Ministers should consider what arrangements could be put in place to

improve performance management in relation to the posts of Chief Secretary and Chief

Executives of Departments, Offices and Boards.

[This Report was laid in May and circulated with the papers for the May sitting of Tynwald.

The Council of Ministers Response to the Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts

Report on the Commercialisation of the TT: Contract Negotiations and Contract Management

2005 to 2010 [GD No 0035/13], which is to be laid at this sitting, is relevant to this item.]

The President: Item 11, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, Mr Cannan.

The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Madam 5990

President.

In accordance with the wishes of the Public Accounts Committee to allow their reports to be

debated, I am moving the motion that the Report on the Commercialisation of the TT, as set out in

the Order Paper, be received.

I do not intend to cover in detail the Report, except to say that there were a number of lessons 5995

to be learnt, and I am pleased to note a positive response in that respect from the Council of

Ministers.

The matter has been well aired in public, following extensive press coverage on both radio and

in the newspapers, and the criticism is well founded. There was, it has to be said, a serious

breakdown in controls and management brought on by either fear or unwillingness to confront 6000

internal relationship issues.

In summary, whilst there have been some positives for the TT generally, which is becoming a

slicker and more professional event, financially there were failings and the taxpayers’ funds were

put at risk due to a breakdown of control.

Madam President, I have to bring to the Court’s attention two small corrections: firstly, part 6, 6005

paragraph 48 states that Mr Le Page left the Department in 2008 – this is incorrect and Mr Le Page

in fact retired in October 2009; and on page 30, it was Mr Quayle who was the Minister in May

2009, and not Mr Earnshaw. I apologise to the Court for these time-related errors, but I would ask

Members to recognise that the secretarial facilities available to the PAC have been much reduced

in the last two years and there were a significant number of dates and times required to collate in 6010

this Report.

Finally, I would like to thank the Members of the Committee – Mr Butt, Mrs Cannell and

Mr Singer – for their contribution and efforts in compiling this Report.

I leave it open now to the Court for any comments and debate.

6015


Mr Singer: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Madam President.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Teare. 6020


I will be brief. I just want to put on record that, following the review of this contract by the

Internal Audit Division of Treasury in 2010, Treasury has already introduced improvements to the

FD8 waiver process. Specifically, measures have already been put in place to help ensure 6025

compliance with the terms under which such waivers are approved. This stringent policy has been

endorsed through the Council of Ministers, which has affirmed that competitive tendering for

goods and services must be the considered norm in gaining best value for money for the taxpayer.

Furthermore, the decision by the Council of Ministers in 2010 to create a specialist central

procurement team has already led to the development of a far more professional approach to 6030

procurement across all of Government. This said, we should not be complacent and there is always

a benefit in reviewing working practices.


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1678 T130

Therefore, subject to the approval of the recommendations of the Report by this Hon. Court,

Treasury will undertake to report back to the October sitting of Tynwald, as required.



Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, the only issue that concerns me is do you think we will ever break

this circle until we actually start holding both the civil servants and those who are politically 6040

responsible to account?

My concern is that once again we see another calamity, as far as the taxpayer is concerned, and

once again we see that we are getting better – there is no doubt about that and we are starting to

name people, but we should be starting to hold people to account on these issues.

I am the first one to say that if a person has never done something wrong, then they have not 6045

done anything; but the point is that we have in the past turned it almost into an art form. My

concern is that I feel that here we are, we get the recommendations, but yet we do not see anybody

held to account. Everybody just go off on full-whack pension and into the sunset.

We are in different times now. Most of my political career that I have been in this Hon. Court

we have been on an up and we have had more and more money, and so it did not matter about 6050

waste; but we are not on an up any more. I do not want to talk down confidence, but I do think in

this Hon. Chamber we cannot afford the luxury of the matey-matey, clubby-clubby way we have

done things in the past. So I just think that and I do hope that they will reflect on the point whether

the Public Accounts need more money or more power in order to actually come back and say,

‘This person should be held to account on the political basis of that mistake or on the basis of bad 6055

administration.’

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Skelly.

Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 6060

I would like to thank the Chairman and his Committee for producing this Report – the Report

on the Commercialisation of the TT. I have to say though, it reads more like a school report, and

‘could do better’ comes to mind; but this is not a school report though, is it? This is about a five-

year commercial contract… senior executives, Government Department and taxpayers’ money – a

very serious business. 6065

However, I think we do need to think why we entered into this and we need to go back to the

beginning and understand where the TT was back in 2005, and probably at its lowest ever in the

entire history of the TT. The Centenary was coming and many were predicting the end of the TT,

but that did not happen. Why? Actually, probably quite likely because of the people in here. (A

Member: Hear, hear.) 6070

So why did they recognise the TT had a future? Well, the TT is a global brand and I really

think it is just waking up to that. And why is that? We have got to look at the TV. We have got to

look at the film and look at the growth that we are in at the moment, and this is continuing to

grow. I think, quite frankly, it does have a strong and positive future. Have a look at what is

happening with regard to the enhancement to the Grand Prix, the Festival of Motorsport and the 6075

Classic TT: bookings are up 24%.

So the real issue – I think we heard it earlier today – is Government’s lack of commercial

experience. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think the Minister for Community, Culture and Leisure

pointed it out: errors were made in the past with regard to a not-fit-for-purpose system. It was a

waste of taxpayers’ money. Sure, we should not go on about that. We have got to learn from this 6080

and we have got to make sure we do not make those mistakes going forward. I think you have just

got to look all around Government and you can see examples of that. That is today. In the wider

context you can think of transportation links, communications and energy – all come to mind

where we have fallen foul of Government not having the appropriate commercial experience.

There are standard issues with regard to a contract. Those are: return on investment – a set rate; 6085

standard sell-on clauses; fundamental conditions. But, putting that aside, I think we now need to

look forward.

My greatest fear with this Report and the result of this Report is that Government will

entrench. (A Member: Hear, hear.) We will stiffen the process, and that is wrong. We do need to

improve the process and we need to still maintain empowerment with our executive to have the 6090

ability to make decisions, and in particular let’s think about the risk element.

I am in DED. I now have TT. I have Tourism and there have been many risks taken over the

years with regard to events, and the TT is the biggest of them all without a doubt; but we must be


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1679 T130

careful that we do not retrench to, ‘No, we can’t.’ We must ensure that we have ‘Yes, we can.’ (A

Member: Hear, hear.) We must be able to deliver that. 6095

So without going overly critical to this, think about the principle and think about the future,

and think about the opportunities.

Gura mie eu.

The President: The Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Quirk. 6100


I do thank the Public Accounts Committee for the Report.

I just want to comment to you about the procurement procedures there are with Treasury and

maybe it is not to the Public Accounts Committee, it is to Treasury as well, that maybe the 6105

Treasury or the Treasury Minister or his team should be giving that presentation out to several

Government Departments or Boards to remind them of the obligations.

I heard from the Hon. Member, Mr Skelly, who is responsible for the TT in Tourism now, but I

would not say that we do take those leaps of faith or risks too quickly. There are procedures there

to protect the public purse. 6110

Just to round up, if I could, and back to the Chairman really, the concern I have is not with the

Report as such, but the comment he made that maybe Government is not resourcing the service

that is provided to look after us – that is the Public Accounts Committee. If there is concern, I do

hope that the Chairman will seek that assurance and the Chairman would let Members know.

6115


Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Madam President.

Madam President, firstly I congratulate the Public Accounts Committee. They have done their

job… hands tied. Nobody is around now to take the blame for this gross incompetence that 6120

happened in the Department of Tourism and Leisure all those years ago, but they have done their

job.

Then, of course, there is this Response Report from the Council of Ministers, which is

nebulous. It is nebulous. It tells us nothing. ‘Oh well, we have responded this way and we have

done that. Aren’t we good?’ and so on. So that is just a waste of time, that document, a complete 6125

waste of time.

The Hon. Member, Mr Teare, says he is going to come back to this Court with some

tightening-up exercises in a response, in due course, to the FD8 waiver arrangements. I am sure he

will, because that was part of the incompetence involved at the time with Signature Sponsorship,

of course, who are the company under scrutiny. 6130

But when Signature was hired in to do this work and they said that the TT needed a brightening

up, Signature did not do that. They brightened absolutely nothing up, only their back pockets.

Mr Quirk: They got the money.

6135

Mr Houghton: They dishonestly appropriated money, and I pointed that out in Question Time

at that particular time when they were doing it and they had to pay the money back to the

Treasury. That was a disgrace. That was told to the then Minister in charge of the Department,

who said, ‘Oh, well, I cannot do it. I do not know anything.’ He only was a bank manager in his

time. I am not going to say who it was – we all know who it is – but he did not do anything and it 6140

has all led to this, and it looks bad. The whole thing looks most unprofessional, and of course, as I

say, when we move forward we are going to have a whole different line in things like this.

Turning back to the performance of this organisation, it was not them that brightened it up.

They had some wonderful trips across and around the United Kingdom, trying to show us off and

show that they were doing their best and everything else; but what really, I feel, put the Isle of 6145

Man on the map as far as the Isle of Man TT – how it got going – was the then wonderful and

professional work done by Greenlight TV. They are the ones who were going to all sorts of

countries, off to millions and millions of people all over the world. They are the ones that put it on,

and now that has been taken over by North One, as you know, that continues that work that was

initiated by Greenlight TV at the time. Greenlight TV is still here on the Isle of Man, and they 6150

have been kicked sideways because they were not wanted any more.

Mr Quirk: And they are Manx.


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1680 T130

Mr Houghton: They are Manx people, Manx employees who did an excellent job and just as 6155

good, if not better, than North One, and not being used. ‘We have tendered out to a better

organisation’, said the then Department, which is wrong and poor because we should investing in

the Isle of Man. It was that organisation that put us our feet, and not the company under scrutiny.

Madam President, I think that is all I have got to say on this.

There is one final point that really agitates me, time and time again. ‘Oh, but we have learned 6160

lessons.’ Then tomorrow, ‘Oh, we have learned our lesson.’ Everybody here is on the… I hear it

on the meeting in the United Kingdom, ‘Oh, we have learned lessons. Wonderful, isn’t it? We

have all learned lessons.’ When are we going learn a lesson or two and really have it learned so

that we are not making mistakes again; especially when, in this case here, in the case of this

company under scrutiny, it was pointed out to them loud and clear what was being done wrong 6165

and nothing was done? So there were no lessons learned. It was just sheer ignorance by those in

those Departments at the time who could not care less.

Thank you.

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Corkish. 6170

Mr Corkish: Thank you, Madam President.

Just a matter of clarification for the Court after hearing the Hon. Member for Douglas North’s

disparaging remarks, really, upon the relationship between the Department, Greenlight Television

and North One. Greenlight Television was not thrown to one side. They tendered, as did North 6175

One, and North One won the tender.



When we read through the recommendations under Item 11, it brought to the front of my mind

an article I read recently by Robert Peston, the Business Editor of the BBC News called ‘How bust

is Whitehall?’ The article described how the UK government has appointed a series of senior

private sector business people to sit as non-executives on the boards of Whitehall departments.

The most senior of these is Lord Browne, the former Chief Executive of BP, and the article went 6185

on to describe his experiences in his fairly short time so far as being exposed the machinations…

behaviour of political life and the Civil Service.

One of Lord Browne’s key quotes was:

‘We now expect the civil service to deliver more from a declining resource base, and with a staff which is being asked

to do things they were not trained to do,’

– and of course I think all of us would support that view today about our own Government.

However, the most important point he makes is when he argues that Whitehall needs to 6190

become better and more confident about things… Sorry, better and more confident about talking

out loud about its failures. He suggests that the Civil Service is hopeless at learning from past

mistakes because:

‘Failure is frowned upon, rather than seen as an inevitable and desirable consequence of informed risk-taking.’

He does not just stop with civil servants. What he says is that it is his belief that policy making

is based on trawling through all the evidence, and has gone too far. I think that this Report, that we 6195

are being asked today to accept, is a very good example of this. Our governanced Government is

an even bigger risk than no governance. It maintains the status quo and interior.

Lord Browne further suggests, of course, harvesting all the relevant facts and data, but the best

decisions require an intuitive or irrational leap of faith, and it is that leap of faith that leaves many

people in the public sector currently very uncomfortable. 6200

I would say that this is very true of so much behind this Item today, and it is about time we all

faced up to the fact that if we keep seeking certainty before we act and ticking boxes to achieve it,

then how will we ever innovate and take measure and proportionate risks?

Lord Browne concludes that good government requires less timidity and more leadership and

what I would say, from my limited knowledge of the background to this Report behind this Item 6205

today, is that is exactly what was shown by the Minister and his officers a decade ago in the way

we transformed a failing and declining event, as Mr Skelly has quite rightly just said, with very


_________________________________________________________________

1681 T130

negative PR, organisational risk and declining revenue, into a fabulous Centenary TT. And then

back, and more importantly, into one of the world’s greatest, if not… sporting events, with top-

quality TV coverage this year in over 80 countries worldwide, 30% more viewers, 14 hours of ITV 6210

programmes alone, same-day coverage on Discovery across the USA and also Brazil, one of the

world’s fastest-growing economies. Surely this TV coverage alone would cost us millions per

annum to buy.

I read an article in a bike magazine recently – I know it will surprise a lot of people, but I do

pick up the odd bike magazine – that said that, at current levels of commercial revenue from the 6215

TT, the event could be self-supporting very soon. Is that not a triumph? Pardon the pun.

So what are we doing here today in this Hon. Court? Picking over the bones and trying to find

fault with something that has over-delivered for our Island. It is astonishing, when you think about

it.

Thinking back to Lord Browne’s comments, isn’t one of the things wrong with our current 6220

model of government illustrated by the fact that someone, somewhere, decided to investigate to

death the gap in this decision, described by Lord Browne as an intuitive and leap-of-faith aspect of

creative and proactive visionaries?

At taxpayers’ expense, over four years, he has actually discovered that the decision has

ultimately proved to be very successful in that a failing and declining event a decade ago has been 6225

transformed into a world-class jewel that contributes massively and positively to the image and

awareness of our Island worldwide. There are, of course, improvements that could have been made

in the management and administration of some aspects of this work; but no-one is ever perfect –

may I say, not even Members of this Hon. Court.

We hear a lot in this Hon. Court about the need to grow our economy, but to do that we need to 6230

take more risks. Of course we should not be careless with taxpayers’ money, but we should not be

careless with the sustainability of the Isle of Man either. We must learn to become more confident

at taking calculated risks. As with all risks, the higher the certainty, the lower the risk. Our Island

needs to be better at taking more risk. As well as recommending all of the administrating aspects

of this Report, I would like to ask the Public Accounts Committee what were the positive aspects 6235

of this commercial relationship, because it seems to me that we just want to criticise.

I was not here a decade ago, but it seems to me that one of the Isle of Man’s greatest successes

that we have had in the last 10 years has been the way we have transformed the TT on the world

stage, and there must be plenty of lessons we can learn from how we did that to enable so much

more of an economic development for the future. 6240

In a similar vein, I would also like to talk about the subject of proportionality of risk. We have

heard motions in this month’s Order Paper on spending £650,000 on the Ramsey swing bridge and

£400,000 on the Ballure Cliff Stabilisation Scheme. What is troubling me is we all seem very

comfortable at spending figures like £400,000, and the figures we can envisage in our own heads

and not feel too guilty about sanctioning them today because it is not a lot in the grand scheme of 6245

things.

What we are not very good at, though, is dealing with huge figures, and by that I mean things

like we have a Public Sector Pension Scheme that has liabilities of over £2 billion; we have a

Manx Electricity Authority with debts of over £300 million; we have, in recent years, lost over

£100 million per annum on our revenue. These figures are so big that it troubles me that Members 6250

in this Hon. Court are unable to comprehend them and therefore would rather spend our time

laboring through an Item where £1.6 million was spent over six years than actually achieving

some of the greatest awareness and marketing the Isle of Man has even known. We seem content

to pick through things like this, and yet we are not tackling those really, really big issues.

I do not want to see, as a result of the recommendations today, that there are another 57 hoops 6255

to jump through being added to our already increasingly bureaucratic Isle of Man Government.

We have got to get back to a situation where we are agile, there is less bureaucracy, we are able to

adapt to the changing world around us, and we are not obsessed with looking over our shoulder at

past mistakes.

Much of our recent economic success has come from a world of technology, and we need to 6260

leave behind the outdated overly administrative risk-averse practices of the 20th-century public

sector. The time is right for a comprehensive and independent review of the way we process

information, the lines of accountability and the way we make the decisions that are going to

impact on our futures and the sustainability of our Island.

I want to remind you again of the conclusions of Lord Browne: 6265

‘…the best decisions require an intuitive or irrational leap of faith.’


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1682 T130

Good government requires less timidity and more leadership, and as I see it, it is our job to

deliver that for the good our Island and our people.


The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cretney. 6270

Mr Cretney: Yes, thank you, Madam President.

It would be wrong if I did not rise today, because it has been suggested that there is nobody

still about who had anything to do with this situation and I just want to… I accept fully my

responsibility as part of this situation. 6275

The point I want to make briefly is that we not must forget the circumstances, and in 2003, in a

tragic high-profile accident, we lost perhaps the greatest TT rider of the day, David Jefferies, at

Crosby, and the event was about to implode. Everybody was blaming everybody else for what was

going on.

In 2005, there was another tragic accident in Ballaugh, where Gus Scott, a high-profile 6280

journalist with many connections had a tragic accident at Kirk Michael involving the marshal,

April Bolster, where they both, sadly, lost their lives, and from there it was quite clear to me that

we definitely needed not only to up our game in terms of the safety, wherever possible, around

motorcycle road racing – acknowledging that it is a risk sport and part of the attraction is that it is

a risk sport – but also the commerciality, with the Government of the Isle of Man, as it has since 6285

1907, recognising the opportunity and then investing a substantial amount of taxpayers’ money…

that that just could not go on in that manner. There needed to be a more commercial approach.

I, as I said at the start, accept that I was involved significantly, in terms of trying to turn around

things and trying to not only improve the safety, which I believe has come on in leaps and bounds

from what it was, but also in terms of the commercial aspect, recognising the importance there and 6290

the difficult challenges that were all around us, and to see 2007, to see 2011, and to see, as the

Hon. Member for Castletown just mentioned, and others, about how the event is now in a new era.

I am really pleased that we are in that place. I apologise for what happened along the way, in

terms of my responsibilities, but I do believe that we, at the end of the day, have a better event fit

for the future. 6295

Two Members: Hear, hear.

A Member: Well done.

6300

The President: The Chairman to reply.

The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President.

I will try and deal with some of these comments as concisely as possible.

First of all, I thank the Treasury Minister for his response and we look forward to his report 6305

back in due course.

Mr Karran obviously is back on the theme of holding people accountable, and for me, really,

the Public Accounts Committee… it is not for us to state whether or not people should go, but the

recommendations are there and it is up to the Council of Ministers and Departments to assess that.

What we have made an art form, I think, is investigating reporting on these matters often years 6310

after the actual event itself, which does make it difficult sometimes to pursue that particular line.

I just want to pick up on the points made by, I think, Mr Skelly and Mr Ronan, both of whom

have shared a strong view that risks should be taken and in some ways are acceptable. Mr Ronan

in particular, I think, said, ‘Well, were there any positive aspects?’ I should draw him to the

Report, which I will do in a moment, but obviously the nature of the work of the Public Accounts 6315

Committee is to investigate failures, and therefore it is unlikely that we are going to be full of

glorified happy families here. We are really here to dig down into the detail of what went wrong,

and sometimes things do go wrong.

A conclusion at paragraph 55 states:

‘We conclude that the contract between the Department of Tourism and Leisure and Signature Sponsorship has made a

significant contribution to the increasing commercialisation of the TT since 2005. Despite this success, however, the

contract has failed to generate any increase in net revenue to the Department or its successor, the Department of Economic Development.’

6320


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1683 T130

So the Public Accounts Committee has acknowledged that and we take on board… I think the

Public Accounts Committee did take on board the point that this was a very difficult time for the

Department. There were a number of pressures, as Minister Cretney has highlighted, and the

Public Accounts Committee did accept that.

Nevertheless, the handling of the Signature contract by itself in isolation did produce some 6325

serious shortcomings and did, in the view of the Public Accounts Committee, pose an

unacceptable risk to public finances, and that there were a number of issues, which I do not intend

to go into in much depth here, but there were basic errors and breakdowns in communication and

breakdowns in management, which despite all the risk-taking, were just not acceptable.

Really, I think the view from the Public Accounts Committee – and I cannot necessarily speak 6330

for all Members – is that we do understand that risks have to be taken, but we have to balance

those risks out with what we would regard as basic good practice from a commercial and business

sense.

So just moving on to some of the other comments, I acknowledge the comments from

Mr Quirk. 6335

Mr Houghton’s comments… Obviously again, I acknowledge that he has got a strong view on

this, and indeed he was in fact the Member who initially raised this, I think, back in 2007, where

he highlighted the fact that Signature owed the Treasury some quite significant sums and indeed

had been significantly overspending on agreed expenses.

Just to acknowledge the contribution also from Mr Corkish. 6340

But I think overall, the points have been made. Again, just to highlight, we do believe there

were significant failings. We believe there are lessons to be learned, particularly the relationship

issues between senior officers and the fact that actually the relationship particularly between the

chief executive and her deputies really should have been addressed at the time.

Madam President, I beg to move. 6345

The President: Hon. Members, there has been little comment on the individual

recommendations, so I intend to move this item in its entirety.

The motion before the Court is set out at Item 11 on your Orders Papers. Those in favour,

please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 6350


European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Arms Embargo, Etc)

(Amendment) Order 2013 approved

European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013 approved

European Union (Libya Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013 approved

12.-14. The Chief Minister to move:

12. That the European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Arms Embargo, Etc) (Amendment) Order

2013 be approved. [SD No 0257/13]

13. That the European Union (Somalia Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013 be

approved. [SD No 0255/13]

14. That the European Union (Libya Sanctions) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2013 be


The President: I have had a request that Items 12, 13 and 14 be moved together. Is that

agreed, Hon. Members? (It was agreed.) They will be voted on separately, of course.

The Chief Minister to move.

The Chief Minister (Mr Bell): Thank you, Madam President. 6355

Each of the three Orders before the Court today concerns updates to European Union sanctions

that have previously applied to the Island.

Two of the Orders relate to Somalia and one to Libya. There are two separate Somalia

Sanctions Orders simply because they implement two separate sets of EU sanctions against that

country. All three of the Orders apply changes that have been made by the EU in response to 6360

updates to the relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions.


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1684 T130

The first Order, at Item 12, updates measures relating to the arms embargo that is in place

against Somalia in respect of items for United Nations, African Union and Federal Government

personnel.

The second Somalia Order updates measures concerning the freezing of funds of certain 6365

persons who are contributing to the violence and instability in that country.

The Libya Order at Item 14 is to implement changes to the arms embargo against that country

in respect of non-lethal military items intended solely for security or disarmament assistance to the

Libyan government.

Madam President, I beg to move that Items 12, 13 and 14 be approved. 6370

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Teare.

Mr Teare: Madam President, I beg to second and to reserve my remarks.

6375

The President: We take Item 12 first, Hon. Members. Those in favour, please say aye; against,

no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Item 13: those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.


Merchant Shipping Act 1985

Merchant Shipping (Maritime Labour Convention) Regulations 2013 approved

15. The Minister for Economic Development to move:

That the Merchant Shipping (Maritime Labour Convention) Regulations 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0234/13]

The President: Item 15, the Minister for Economic Development to move. 6380

The Minister for Economic Development (Mr Shimmin): Thank you, Madam President.

I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quayle. 6385


I beg to second this motion.

I would like to emphasise how important it is, for the continued success of the Ship Registry,

to approve these Regulations. The Maritime Labour Convention is one of the current hot topics in 6390

shipping. Being at the forefront of implementing the latest international standards is crucial to the

reputation of the Island and to the ability of the Ship Registry to remain competitive. An estimated

90% of the world’s freight is carried on ships with some 1.2 million seafarers worldwide. As the

15th largest ship register in the world, honouring our international obligations to ensure decent

working conditions for seafarers and promoting fair competition for quality ship owners is 6395

essential.

A fundamental part of implementing any new shipping convention involves ensuring Manx

ship owners are prepared to implement the new requirements. To this end, the Ship Registry has

worked very closely with its customers around the world, leading the way by speaking at

numerous events and hosting a Maritime Labour Convention seminar on the Island. 6400

Working towards the implementation of the Convention in this way has also enhanced the

reputation of the Island as a go-to place for ship registration. It is part of the reason the Registry

continues to grow year after year. Even during this time of global economic downturn, the Island’s

Ship Register continues to expand and is currently the sixth fastest-growing register in the world.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie, 6405

who has been responsible for shipping whilst the majority of the work prepared for this important

Convention has been going on.

I hope this Hon. Court will support this motion, and through it the continued success of the

Island’s Ship Register.

Madam President, I therefore beg to second. 6410


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1685 T130

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 15 on your Order Papers. Those

in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Town and Country Planning Act 1999

Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) (No 2) Order 2013 approved


That the Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) (No 2) Order 2013 be


The President: Item 16, the Minister for Infrastructure.

6415


This Order is made under the Town and Country Planning Act 1999. It prescribes the

procedures for planning approval and related approvals under part 2 of the Town and Country

Planning Act 1999 and replaces the Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) Order

2005. 6420

It is envisaged that the new provisions will have an immediate and positive impact upon the

daily procedural operation of the Planning function and, importantly, will help deliver on the

Agenda for Change objective to make sure town and country planning supports economic

development.

Furthermore, the provisions of the Order will assist to formalise the roles of the Department 6425

and the Chief Secretary’s Office in respect of planning appeals, so as to provide transparency to

that process beyond Government.

This has been a root-and-branch assessment of an important piece of secondary legislation for

planning and, coupled with the ongoing review of the primary legislation, will place the Planning

Division in a strong position to meet the expectations and challenges posed by the customer and 6430

the marketplace in the foreseeable future.

I am aware that a number of Members have raised concerns about the Planning Committee not

being referred to within the Order. I would like to assure all Hon. Members that there will continue

to be a Planning Committee, appointed by the Council of Ministers, which will continue to

determine planning applications. However, based on advice, the vires of the Planning Committee 6435

to determine planning applications under the Town and Country Planning Act 1999 is now made

via appropriate delegation in accordance with the provisions of section 3(2) of the Government

Departments Act 1987.

If approved by Tynwald, this Order comes into operation on 1st August this year.

Presently, there exist a number of fundamental and significant problems in respect of the 6440

provisions, wording and interpretation of the current Town and Country Planning (Development

Procedure) Order 2005. This has the potential to seriously undermine any immediate future

reliance upon the existing legislation to support the operation of the planning function in the Isle

of Man. Moreover, this has frequently led to receipt of complex correspondence from individuals

on vires and procedure. To continue with the current Procedure Order will inevitably increase the 6445

potential for legal challenge, not just in respect of the procedural propriety of planning decisions,

but also in regard to the vires of who makes such decisions.

Consultation: in 2011, the Council of Ministers considered a paper on limited changes to the

operations of planning procedures, and the Planning Committee is set out in the proposed

consultation under the Town and Country Planning (Development Procedure) (Amendment) Order 6450

2011, which had previously been consulted upon in April and May 2011. Council subsequently

agreed that the matter be deferred until after the General Election in September 2011. As a result,

and until such time as any new procedure order was approved by Tynwald, the provisions of the

2005 Order remained in place.

Following the General Election, the original proposals put to Council have been reconsidered 6455

by officers of the Department of Infrastructure, the Chief Secretary’s Office and Attorney

General’s Chambers, particularly in light of further advice received from the Attorney General’s

Chambers, independent legal advice from a special planning barrister and issues raised by an

individual in lengthy, complex and ongoing correspondence with the Department of Infrastructure

and Chief Secretary’s Office over the last 12 months with respect to procedural matters associated 6460

with the existing secondary legislation, standing orders and delegations.


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1686 T130

The Department now invites Tynwald to approve the Order under section 44(1) of the Town

and Country Planning Act 1999, and I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

The President: Hon. Mr Houghton. 6465

Mr Houghton: I beg to second.

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at –

Mr Speaker. 6470


Can I ask the Minister to clarify – and he did, in large part, on the face of it – the alarming

statement that appeared to be the disappearance of the Planning Committee, which of course, as he

has explained – and it is important, publicly, that he did so – is a method of appointment. 6475

Just to clarify, is the provision for the new method of appointment by the Council of Ministers

under the Government Departments Act… In practice, does that mean it is the Appointments

Commission that will be making the appointment of the Planning Committee, in the same way as

it makes appointments to other committees within Government, rather than being a function of the

Minister within the Department solely? 6480

The President: Hon. Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, after talking to the Planning and the Minister, I just want it on record

that it seems to us that this Order seems to be wanting to abolish the Planning Committee, which 6485

even at the moment only deals with about 10% of the planning applications – primarily the ones

that are the most complex, controversial, and those that have lots of objections. So this does not

mean that all planning applications will therefore, from 1st August 2001 be dealt with by planning

officers under delegated powers, as currently about 90% of the applications primarily are

straightforward ones, and I believe do operate from that basis at the present time. 6490

I have been asked about the issue of the Order. Can the Shirveishagh tell us what consultations

have been carried out with regard to this legislation and with whom; and what were the responses,

as far as this Order is concerned? What consultation was carried out by community groups,

residents’ associations… and if not, why not?

How will it work as far as openness and transparency, if the process achieved is… if all the 6495

decisions are made behind closed doors, instead of in public, in the case of applications going to

the Planning Committee?

Could the planning applications be determined by a person who has prepared the planning

officer’s report and/or discussed the application with the applicant or his or her agent?

Will the planning officer’s report be published on the internet some time before the planning 6500

application is determined, as presently applications go into the Planning Committee so that

interested parties can check them for accuracy and misrepresentation?

One of the concerns that has been pointed out to me is that none of these safeguards are

incorporated into this legislation, so I do want the Hon. Minister to make it quite clear that it is not

what it seems to be, as far as reading this piece of legislation – not just by me, but by others. 6505

There were two other flaws in the proposed legislation, which actually exist in the current

legislation, which should be addressed when the legislation is being revised.

Under clause 5(3)(a)(ii), it specifies a requirement to:

‘display a copy of the notice by fixing it firmly to a building or other structure or object on or near the land that is the

subject of the application so that it is easily visible by members of the public from a public highway…’

But this wording is flawed if the notice is not easily visible and you cannot read it, if it is 20

yards down a private driveway or over a wall on private land. The Department is currently quite 6510

happy that the legislation is being complied with in these circumstances, but the legislation needs

to specify that it should be in the notice, in easy… readable and legible from the public highway.

I am very pleased with this. When we proposed this amendment to the legislation many years

ago, where we wanted like a ‘for sale’ sign, a lot bigger, the earth was going to fall into itself and

it was going to destroy the whole planning system, so I see that we have got a compromise here, 6515

which I do appreciate. It may not go far enough, but I am concerned that… it is no use having

these signs if people cannot read the details because they are not anywhere a curtilage where

people have the public access to be able to read them.


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1687 T130

I believe the other thing that… It is under clause 6(3), it is at the discretion of the Department

which persons are given interested-party status, and on past form they can exclude an awful lot of 6520

people who are affected if planning consent is granted. Therefore, interested-party status should be

given to any person who can be significantly adversely affected if the planning application is

granted.

What we have got at the present time is not perfect, but it has improved out of all recognition,

and I am just a little bit worried about supporting this proposal because many of the things that 6525

have come about as far as planning is concerned… There was the planning peer report of 2008

carried out by the Improvement and Development Agency and the Department’s review of the

planning system report of January 2010. My concern is are we going to go backwards as far as this

proposal in front of us today? My concern is the fact that it was a long, hard battle achieved as far

as how it was as open as possible as far as the transparency of the planning procedure. In fact, one 6530

of the things that came out of the Mount Murray inquiry was the idea that we should have open

planning procedures.

Allowing for the fact that we have only 10% going to the Planning Committee, which there

might be good reasons for – I have never been on the Planning Committee, so I am not arguing

that I have the knowledge as far as this is concerned, but when I have people who I have a lot of 6535

respect for telling me that there are concerns with this Order, I am very concerned about whether I

should support this Order, because I think it is important that we must not go back to the old days

of everything clouded in secrecy.

I understand that we want to diversify and we want to get the 80% commitment or dependency

of the construction industry away from the public purse, and I am all for that. I put proposals 6540

before the last General Election on that, that were not popular – just before the General Election –

because I am so concerned about that. But I am concerned that if I support this proposal, will I see

the fact of the demise of the Planning Committee and see it doing even less work as far as

supporting this Item in front of us today, Eaghtyrane?

6545

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Butt.

Mr Butt: Thank you, Madam President.

First, I would like to congratulate the Minister on bringing these measures forward.

He refers to lengthy correspondence with an individual. I think that individual may have 6550

pointed out that there were flaws, anomalies and maybe even illegalities in the system as it

currently stands. The Minister will be pleased to hear that after speaking to perhaps that person

who has made that correspondence, very recently, he seems quite happy with the fact that these

measures have been taken. So I am pleased to say to the Minister he may have less correspondence

in the future, but don’t hold your breath! (Laughter) 6555

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.


One thing to say is that if the Speaker was a bit concerned after receiving the explanatory 6560

memorandum about whether the Planning Committee was still there or not, I think we should

perhaps learn lessons – the favourite topic today – about the content of explanatory memoranda,

because I have the same concern, and if that was not clear, perhaps we should at least have got a

fuller briefing about that point.

I just wanted to add something to what the Hon. Member for Onchan who has just resumed his 6565

seat said. I think public speaking at committees is a valuable contribution to openness and that is

something that has come up in the reviews of the planning development procedure, and perhaps

the Minister, in his reply, could just comment – on whether we are actually going backwards –

very specifically about that point.

Also, I think in the old Development Order – although the explanatory memorandum was not 6570

very full – I believe neighbours have the automatic right to be interested parties, generally

speaking. I think only on occasion do they not have that, and I believe that in this current

Development Procedure Order that is different. I just wanted clarification about that.

Finally, obviously the Scope of Government review and the scope of local government review

is coming towards its end game, we learned earlier today from the Chief Minister, and I just 6575

wondered whether this Development Procedure Order will have to be changed in the next six

months if local government gets the first-stage planning that is envisaged perhaps in the Scope of

Government process. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.


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1688 T130

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 6580


I was not going to rise for this particular one, but I have some concerns if some Hon. Members

are drawing to attention something that may not be there, and I am hoping the Minister will tell us

that. 6585

Just regarding public speaking at the Committee, that was a policy that was to be marched out,

if that is helpful to the Minister.

I wonder, because I am on my feet now, whether to… Once and for all, in the future, can we

dispel the particular rumour that local authorities will get first-stage planning? I would see that as

an absolute nightmare (Two Members: Hear, hear.) and maybe we could kill it at an early stage if 6590

the Minister said something about it.


The Minister: In relation to the last point, I am not sure it is exclusively my decision as to 6595

whether, if there is going to be a revision of local authorities in future and allocation of powers to

a new arrangement in terms of local authorities, it would be strictly within my remit to decide

whether or not they should have first-stage planning. However, my own position would be such

that I believe that that would be a retrograde step and it would be, in terms of a number of local

authorities having to employ additional staff to carry out their function… I do not think that that 6600

would be the right thing to happen.

I also think, having looked at appeals – which I do from time to time – that sometimes… We

have a great system here in terms of accessibility to elected members, whether they are local

authority members or at the national level, and I sometimes think that accessibility to local

authority members in particular, when you are talking about planning matters, may be just too 6605

close. (A Member: Hear, hear.)

In relation to Mr Speaker’s point about the arrangements and whether it would be via the

Appointments Commission, it would not be via the Appointments Commission. It would continue

the current arrangements in relation to the establishment of the Planning Committee, rather than

anything else. 6610

In relation Mr Karran – current arrangements for delegated powers remain in place – the same

criteria apply for referring matters to the Planning Committee.

He asked about consultation: details of consultation were published on the website in 2011.

Delegated decisions made by officers who have not been involved in the discussions with

applicants or handling actual applications: that continues the current practice with regard to that 6615

matter.

Planning reports are not currently uploaded onto the website for delegated decisions and there

are no plans to change this current practice. To do so would significantly delay the decision-

making process and add additional time, given the volume of work involved in uploading onto the

website. 6620

There are improved arrangements to ensure visibility of A4 site notices, which are very visible

around the Island, through the use of… We have all seen them about, this bright yellow paper

which is used. I do take on board the point the Hon. Member makes about sometimes they may be

down a laneway or whatever, they may be some distance off the main highway; however, there is

the additional protection that all such notices have to be – as they always used to be – published in 6625

the newspapers, so the introduction of the signage is on top of that and an improvement in terms of

people’s awareness. I do think it has generally worked very well, and people are… You see people

going up and having a look at the yellow signs – perhaps for a skeet or whatever, but they go and

have a look and see what is proposed – and I think that is quite a healthy thing, myself.

The process to determine interested-party status remains unchanged. The same criteria will 6630

apply.

The Planning Committee is currently an open meeting for the public and press, so it is not a

closed meeting, and there are some members of the public who regularly attend.

I meet on a quarterly basis with the Planning Committee, and officers more regularly perhaps,

but the discussions around the opportunity for public speaking is one which my friend, the Hon. 6635

Member for Middle, Mr Quayle, alongside a number of other issues, was progressing whilst he

was Chairman, and I know that Mr Skelly, who has now taken over, is keen that that should

become the practice as soon as possible, and a trial is about to commence shortly in a controlled

way.


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1689 T130

I do think, as somebody who was involved in planning a long time ago… I have said this and 6640

they get fed up of me saying this, but I always felt that the review process was a useful mechanism

inasmuch as persons who were concerned had the opportunity to come in, make their point, and

both sides felt they were being listened to. So I am a big supporter of the opportunity for people to

come in and have the opportunity to make their points in a structured manner at planning

meetings, and that will happen, hopefully sooner rather than later. 6645

As I say, the Planning Committee will continue. I apologise if Hon. Members got the wrong

impression in that regard. I hope I have clarified that for Hon. Members.

I thank, in particular, Mr Butt, for his message in relation to persons who have been in contact

with him, who may not be quite so much in contact with me – which I will obviously welcome.

I beg to move. 6650

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 16 on your Order Paper. Those


Suspension of Standing Order 1.2(2) to complete Order Paper

Motion carried

The President: Hon. Members, it is now after eight o’clock. I need your guidance as to how

you want to proceed. 6655

The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson. (Interjections) The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson, has the

floor.

Mr Watterson: I would like to think we are all coming from the same place, Madam

President, but I would like to think that the pace will pick up now and we should be able to dispose 6660

of the… [Inaudible] so that the Order Paper can be completed.


The President: Is that agreed, Hon. Members? 6665

It was agreed.


Town and Country Planning (Appeal Fees) Order 2013 approved


That the Town and Country Planning (Appeal Fees) Order 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0239/13]

The President: Item 17, the Minister for Infrastructure.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): I will try and pick up the pace! (Laughter)

This Order is made under the Fees and Duties Act 1989 and it introduces a simple and easy-to-

understand system based on the payment of a single one-off fee of £150 in relation to submission 6670

of a planning appeal, as submitted under town and country planning legislation.

The fee will provide a level of cost recovery contribution towards the provision of the planning

appeals service to all interested persons whilst still ensuring that the appeal fee is competitive to

that applied in other jurisdictions. By way of comparison, the planning fee of £150 is broadly

comparable to the planning fee of £126 currently levied in Northern Ireland, but is substantially 6675

lower than the planning appeal fee levied in the Republic of Ireland – which ranges between £175

and £3,500, depending on the nature of the proposed development to be appealed – and that of

Jersey, where the appeal fee is fixed at £200 in respect of a first-party appeal by the developer and

£300 for a third-party appeal.


_________________________________________________________________

1690 T130

Notwithstanding the lower appeal fee, the big difference between the Isle of Man system and 6680

that applied in the other jurisdictions is that this Order provides that, in the event of a successful

planning, the appeal fee of £150 will be completely refunded.

I could go on a lot longer; I think those are the relevant points.

I beg to move.

6685

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Skelly.

Mr Skelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. (Interjection and laughter)

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Quirk. 6690

Mr Quirk: Okay, Madam President?

The President: Pardon?

6695

Mr Quirk: Okay?

The President: I have just invited you to speak, sir.

Mr Quirk: I will do that. 6700

This is one of the ones I will be voting against, Minister, as previous Planning Chairman.

The major issue here – and I will be brief as well – is you have not provided any

documentation or any evidence for vexatious appeals. I would have supported the particular issue

if the Department had done that.

In my short time… but my interest in planning has been vast and I would hate to see… 6705

although there is… I give you credit for that, to say the appeal is successful, but what I do not

agree on is:

‘The proposed appeal fee will – ‘Discourage persons from using the appeals process as a delaying tactic’

– no evidence –

‘or as a means of making vexatious appeals…’

– no evidence; there is nothing there at all to say that on it –

‘… reduce the work load of the Department and Chief Secretary’s Office.’

I think the mechanisms you have already brought in, Minister, over the couple of years since I 6710

was there, by making planning applications more streamlined, using the officers to come to the

smaller applications, have done that. But on this particular one, I will not be convinced on this,

that by just putting a figure on it to make a person pay £150, no matter what jurisdiction there is…

I still think we have a right in the Isle of Man for the person who feels that he is aggrieved by a

particular issue to make that appeal and make his or her case. By not providing the information 6715

here, I think you are doing a disservice because you have not proved the case.


Mr Quayle: Thank you, Madam President. 6720

I feel I have to rise, as the previous Chairman of Planning, to comment that I think Mr Quirk’s

time as Chairman of Planning must have been totally different (A Member: Hear, hear.) to my

time in Planning, and I have to say this was one of my pet projects because I was so annoyed with

appeals which cost, on average, £1,000 to the taxpayer, and we would have people who would be

having a neighbourly dispute over something petty, like a wooden fence at the back or the front. It 6725

would be refused and crystal clear that there was no case, but because the neighbour had a

vendetta, he or she would then appeal the decision because it was no cost to them whatsoever (A

Member: Hear, hear.) to appeal the decision. They had nothing to lose. That then would go to

appeal. We had instances in my time where the people would not even turn up to the appeal. They

had purely used it as an excuse to get at the neighbour. 6730


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1691 T130

So, I thought, how can we get around this and save the taxpayer money; and I thought if we

introduce a fee, so that you will only go for it if you feel that you have a chance, or a least a fair

chance of winning it, then that would put off those people who are out there to waste our time and

the taxpayer’s money.

I also came up with the idea that, to be fair to people and to show that we were not out to stop 6735

appeals, we would give you your money back if you won. No-one else does that. This was

designed to make sure that the genuine member of the public who wanted to appeal, who had a

chance, was able to appeal without too much expense, and if they won their appeal then they

would get their £150.

At the end of the day, planning has to be cost neutral and we cannot have a service where we 6740

are heavily subsidising the public, and especially members of the public who abuse the planning

system.

I am disappointed that there are objections, but I hope the majority of the Court will see its

merits.

Thank you. 6745

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Madam President, I do not wish to set a trend for every former Chairman of the

Planning Committee to rise to his feet, because there are, believe it or not, 10 Members of this 6750

Hon. Court who at one time were chairmen of the Planning Committee, and my time was quite a

few years ago.

But I do agree with the last speaker, the Hon. Member for Middle, that in my experience… and

accepting that the evidence has not been spelled out perhaps in the way that Mr Quirk feels it

should have, but his experience should tell, as it certainly has told me, that vexatious planning 6755

appeals in the Isle of Man are facilitated by the fact that there is, almost uniquely, a right of third-

party appeal. In other jurisdictions it is the applicant and an interested party, somebody with a

direct interest, who has the right of appeal.

I agree with the Minister that there was much to be said for the review stage to allow parties to

let off steam without necessarily having to go to appeal, but that has been since, I think, addressed 6760

by giving the right to speak at the initial stage.

Another aspect that would deter frivolous and vexatious appeals, of course, would be the

possibility of award of costs in the event of a failed appeal, which would surely act as a deterrent.

There is a balance to be struck by giving fairness to members of the public and parties in the

appeal process, but I think for too long the Isle of Man system has been overly generous in the 6765

way it facilitated appeal, and particularly vexatious appeals. The introduction of a fee, therefore,

will go a long way to stopping that, and I think the level of the fee, judging from the evidence of

how it stacks up against other places, is probably about right.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Karran. 6770

Mr Karran: I think the point… I would not argue over the issues of the vexatious problems

that you have with certain people, but the only thing is that what we successfully will do is the fact

that if someone is vexatious they will not be able to appeal, but if they are rich and they can afford

to lose £150, they will still be able to do a vexatious appeal. 6775

My concern is – and it is a concern, and we had a row the other week with the Ard-

shirveishagh about the access to justice… My concern with this is that we need to be making very

sure that the depth of people’s pockets does not affect their democratic right to hold the planning

system to account.

I say that there is the truth that, if they win their appeal, they will get their £150 back, but we 6780

need to remember in this Hon. Court that there are people who have not got £150 spare to be able

to put out on the basis that they can lose an appeal, and they are not always… It is not always the

situation that they can afford to lose £150. I would have liked to have seen some mechanism

where, if there was some genuine reason where they had low income, or whatever, they could have

had the service. 6785

I congratulate the Minister on the fact that they will get it back if they are proven to be right,

and I think that is the right way and the fair way to do it, but I do feel the problem is that we are

shutting the doors again, where we are going to end up with situations where people who are not

well off will be saying, ‘They should not get this planning, but I cannot afford to lose £150 or take

the risk of £150,’ which could be their next week’s shopping. 6790


_________________________________________________________________

1692 T130

I am concerned, and that is why I feel that, whilst I am shoulder to shoulder with the Council

of Ministers that hard fiscal decisions need to be made, my concern is all I see is the lack of

proportionality on these things and I would have liked to have seen some mechanism where, if

they are on a low income, they have not got the situation where they are debarred, because of

fiscal concerns, from being able to take their full inclusion as far as this is concerned. 6795

I can remember many years ago when we first stood, in 1981, where we used to have a £100

deposit for standing for the House of Keys. The point is that one of the arguments we must be

careful of, when we talk about hard decisions, is that we do not restrict ordinary people being able

to take their democratic rights as far as planning, standing for election, or anything else. I

understand that there will be very few – or at least I hope there are very few – where £150 would 6800

make the difference between them taking up this opportunity as far as going to appeal on a

planning procedure, but unfortunately, Eaghtyrane, in too many things you have to allow for

certain things for a minority who abuse it, so that innocent people can actually be able to get it.

I am very tempted to vote against this proposal in front of us today, because I think that… No-

one is arguing that we have got to make money, we have got… [Inaudible] but again it always 6805

seems to be aimed at one angle. If Hon. Members believe that by bringing £150… I have seen so

many cases over the years where sanity has just gone out of the window between neighbours – and

particularly a hedge can bring out the worst in people… I have to say that I just cannot see £150

stopping a vexatious planning appeal. I just cannot see it. If all rhyme and reason has gone out of

the window, they will go to hell and back before they… I know about that from personal 6810

experience with certain parties.

The fact is I do feel that there needs to be something about the ordinary person who cannot

afford it, and I am very tempted to vote against this proposal.



I started off trying to be succinct and get on with the business as quickly as I could. (A

Member: Hear, hear.) I will try and conclude on the same basis.

Currently, the Isle of Man deals with approximately 300 planning appeals per year, which 6820

when taken on a per head of population basis is significantly more than submitted in other

jurisdictions.

I would say that is not the only reason that I have got this here – to discourage vexatious

appeals. It is aimed at providing some element of cost recovery. The level of the fee is not felt to

discourage the number of appeals, it is not stopping the right of appeal, and I think the important 6825

part – the refund element – will support those who have a genuine appeal which succeeds..

It is a very difficult one. In terms of awarding costs, powers already exist in the legislation – in

response to Mr Speaker – although in practice they have rarely been used. Indeed it is a two-way

process, as costs could be awarded against the Department as well as applicants.

In response to Mr Karran, he makes the case on behalf of those whose income is an issue and 6830

he says that it will be a problem for people on low income, but for wealthy people £150 will not be

a problem. Well, at least then, if they are doing it on a vexatious basis, there will be some income

into the Department for such vexatious behaviour.

It would be quite difficult and bureaucratic, I think, to introduce a sliding scale to take account

of his concerns, so that is why we have looked at other jurisdictions and come out with a fee which 6835

we consider to be fair when you compare it with others.

At the moment, about 75% of appeals are not successful, and the level of appeals is

approximately 10% of planning applications, so it is, as I say, significantly higher than other

countries, and that is why again I thank the Hon. Member for Middle for coming up with this

proposal. 6840

After much consideration, I do believe it is the right thing to do and I do hope Hon. Members

will agree.




_________________________________________________________________

1693 T130

Building Control Act 1991

Building (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 approved


That the Building (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0143/13]

The President: Item 18, Minister for Infrastructure to move.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Cretney): Thank you. 6850

These Regulations, which are made under section 37 of the Building Control Act 1991,

increase the fees charged for checking plans and inspecting building work by building control

officers under building control legislation.

The revised fees will help achieve a greater level of cost recovery contribution towards the

provision of the building control service to customers while still ensuring that the level of fees is 6855

competitive and in many cases lower than other jurisdictions.

The intention of this fee increase is to provide for a three-year period of fees based on an

annual increase of 3½%, as opposed to the current arrangement of bringing building fee increases

to Tynwald on an annual basis. This new arrangement will match that similarly applied in the

other jurisdictions in the British Isles. 6860

The Building (Fees) Regulations 2013 are subject to a unique and rather protracted Tynwald

procedure. This meant that the Department had, in the first instance, to arrange the regulations to

be laid before the May Tynwald and then, at the second sitting after that, arrange for the

Regulations to be the subject of a motion seeking their approval.

The Department arranged for explanatory information to be issued to Hon. Members at the 6865

May sitting, and since then it has not received any comments from Hon. Members.

In accordance with the new statutory procedures, the Department is now moving a motion

seeking formal approval of the Regulations, and I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Skelly. 6870

Mr Skelly: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.


6875


It is just a simple matter, and the Minister may not have the information: there are only now…

I think it is Onchan that still does building control and Douglas Corporation, and I just wonder if

the Minister can, at a later date maybe, supply me with some information regarding what the likely

fees… well, they will be the same fees, but what the likely issue would be for the future of 6880

amalgamating it all together into one particular unit, so we get the one policy from the Isle of Man

plc.


6885

The Minister: If I can just, from a… I have got a personal little thing there: the Isle of Man is

not a plc. This is a government, and we have got private sector business out there. We work

together, but we are not a plc. (Interjection) I would like to think we are a bit of a nation, really.

That is just a personal thing.

If the Hon. Member looks, he will see that his colleague, the Hon. Member for Onchan, 6890

Mr Karran, this morning raised a number of questions around this issue and I hope that the

responses which I have circulated, in terms of building control and building byelaws and things,

will assist him. If there are any points that he still has following on from such consideration, I will

be happy to address those. I hope that assists him.

Perhaps if I could… Earlier this afternoon, Madam President, Hon. Members may have noticed 6895

that my Chief Executive, Ian Thompson, was in here for proceedings for quite some time. Ian is

about to retire, and I am sure other Hon. Members would wish to join with me in wishing him a

long and happy retirement together with his wife, and I make that point whilst I move this

resolution.

6900

Members: Hear, hear.


_________________________________________________________________

1694 T130



Income Tax Act 1970

Income Tax (International Agreements) (Temporary Taxation) Order 2013 approved

19. The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Income Tax (International Agreements) (Temporary Taxation) Order 2013 be


The President: Item 19, Minister for the Treasury to move. 6905


I announced in my Budget speech this year that the Isle of Man will be signing an

intergovernmental FATCA agreement with the United States of America and a similar agreement

with the United Kingdom. 6910

These agreements are aimed at clamping down on tax evasion through the introduction of

automatic exchange of information, which is becoming the global standard.

The Temporary Taxation Order (TTO) under consideration today extends the Council of

Ministers’ powers in order to enable these new-style agreements to be ratified and given effect,

and for regulations to be introduced in respect of the agreements. 6915

International tax co-operation and transparency has been in the news a lot recently, and

entering into these two agreements will demonstrate the Isle of Man’s continuing commitment to

internationally agreed standards and to being a well regulated jurisdiction.

The TTO also introduces an obligation for financial intermediaries to comply with the

requirement of the disclosure facility that was agreed between the Isle of Man Government and 6920

HM Revenue and Customs in February of this year, and which came into operation in April.

Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding signed by both parties, the Government

will require financial intermediaries to make relevant clients aware of the facility on two separate

occasions, the first being before 31st December 2013, and the second being in the final six months

of operation in 2016. 6925

A final change to be introduced by the TTO is an amendment to the Island’s legislation

concerning the European Union Savings Directive (EUSD). In 2011, the Isle of Man moved fully

to automatic exchange of information in its operation of the EUSD. This removed the withholding

tax option previously available to customers having accounts with the Isle of Man banks. As a

result of this change, EUSD agreements with new members of the European Union will not 6930

include the retention tax articles and the amendment introduced by the TTO will provide for this

change.


The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie. 6935

Mr Downie: I beg to second, Madam President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: The motion before the Court is that Item 19 be approved. Those in favour,

please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 6940


_________________________________________________________________

1695 T130

Civil Registration Act 1984

Registration of Births and Deaths (Fees) Regulations 2013 approved

Marriage Act 1984

Registration of Marriages (Fees) Regulations 2013 approved

Civil Partnership Act 2011

Civil Partnership (Fees) Order 2013 approved


Marriage and Civil Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013 approved

20.-23. The Minister for the Treasury to move:

20. That the Registration of Births and Deaths (Fees) Regulations 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0197/13]

21. That the Registration of Marriages (Fees) Regulations 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0198/13]

22. That the Civil Partnership (Fees) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0195/13]

23. That the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0196/13]

The President: The Treasury Minister would like to move Items 20 to 23 together, given that

they are quite closely linked. Is that agreed, Hon. Members? (It was agreed.)

Minister for the Treasury. 6945

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Teare): Thank you, Madam President; and also thank

you, Hon. Members, for allowing me to take these motions together.

I am moving the Regulations and Orders set out in the motion at the same time. Although Hon.

Members will be required to vote separately on each set of Regulations and each Order, I believe 6950

that this approach will help Hon. Members, bearing in mind the commonality and the relationship

between all of the prescribed fees.

The Regulations and Orders are all made by the Treasury after consultation with the General

Registry. The majority of the fees currently in force were last reviewed in 2008, although some of

the fees were introduced in July 2011 following the introduction of the Civil Partnership Act 2011. 6955

The increase in inflation, as measured by the Retail Price Index, since the fees were last

reviewed in 2008 has been 18.2%. The increase in inflation since the 2011 fees were introduced

has been 4.58%. However, in reviewing the fees, it is has been necessary to increase a number of

fees above the rate of inflation to better reflect the costs associated in providing the actual services.

To assist customers and staff alike, fees in respect of the most commonly used have also been set 6960

at a round figure.

That being said, I would hope that Hon. Members would agree that the fees in their own right

remain modest. I would also ask Hon. Members to bear in mind that the fees do not cover services

for everyday events, but rather, in most cases, what could be deemed as one-off events.

In providing more specific information for each set of Regulations and each Order, I will 6965

address each in the same sequence in the Order Paper.

Starting with the Regulation of Births and Deaths (Fees) Regulations 2013, an amendment

made to the Marriage Act 1984 in 2011 has provided the opportunity to remove the fees for

marriages and related matters from these Regulations. The Regulations now simply focus on the

fees in relation to births and deaths, therefore simplifying them and making it easier for customers 6970

to understand the fees that are relevant.

A new fees structure for undertaking searches in relation to births and deaths has also been

prescribed by these Regulations, again to better reflect the costs involved as a result of the staff

time taken up dealing with such requests. Genealogy is a growing area of business, the research

quite often being undertaken on a paid basis by professional people, and it is important that the 6975

onus of actually doing what can be very time-consuming searches is not simply passed on to the

administration in return for a small fee. In setting out the new fees structure, Hon. Members will

note that an applicant will, however, still be entitled to do their own searches in the Registry free

of charge.


_________________________________________________________________

1696 T130

Following on from the Regulations concerning births and deaths, the Registration of Marriages 6980

(Fees) Regulations 2013 now focus solely on civil marriage fees. The Regulations also provide for

instances where the Registrar may be required to attend at different venues.

When considering the fees, the total cost of a civil marriage in a registrar’s office, including the

booking fee for the registrar’s office – that I will refer to later, under the Marriage and Civil

Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013 – will be £190 if the marriage is solemnised between 6985

the hours of 9.30 a.m. and 4.30 p.m. Monday through to Friday of a normal working week. If a

couple wish to have their civil marriage on a Saturday, there will be an additional £40 fee,

meaning the total fee is £230.

The cost for this service is extremely competitive when viewed against other jurisdictions.

Indeed, by way of example, the cost for simply hiring the registrar’s office in Swansea is £190, 6990

and in Westminster this rises to £380, providing the booking is between a Monday and a

Thursday. If the booking is on a Friday or Saturday, the cost rises to £410. On top of this, the

couple would have to pay the additional fees associated with the service. To give a further

comparison, a search on the internet reveals that the basic ceremony fee charged by some local

churches amounts to £484 alone. 6995

When considering the fees charged by other jurisdictions, and comparing with alternative

services, I would hope that Hon. Members would agree that the fees prescribed by these

Regulations are still very reasonable.

The Marriages (Fees) Regulations 2011, which are in force at present, also prescribe fees in

relation to matters concerning approved places, although these fees have been removed from the 7000

proposed Regulations and are now included under the proposed Marriage and Civil Partnership

(Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013, which I will come to shortly.

In similar fashion to the previous Regulations, a new fees structure for undertaking searches

has been prescribed by these Regulations. Again, an important point for Hon. Members to note is

that an applicant will still be entitled to undertake their own searches in the Registry free of 7005

charge.

Moving on to the Civil Partnership (Fees) Order 2013, this Order has been drafted so that the

fees are consistent with those prescribed by the Registration of Marriages (Fees) Regulations 2013

that I have just mentioned.

Hon. Members will, no doubt, be concerned that an anomaly in the existing fees means that the 7010

current fee for a civil partnership exceeds that for a marriage. Furthermore, I am sure Hon.

Members will understand how important it is that this is addressed as soon as possible, as the

current situation not only gives rise to potential claims of discrimination but also runs the risk of

damaging the Island’s reputation as a result of failing to treat same-sex couples entering into a

civil partnership the same as it would opposite-sex couples entering into a civil marriage. 7015

Finally, I come to the Marriage and Civil Partnership (Venues, Etc.) (Fees) Order 2013. To

assist customers, fees in relation to matters concerning approved places have all been prescribed in

the proposed Order. Currently, the fees are prescribed in both the Marriages (Fees) Regulations

2013 and the Civil Partnership (Fees) (No 2) Order 2011, which can be confusing for customers,

and indeed staff. 7020

The fee in respect of an application for approval of a place, aircraft, vehicle or vessel for a

three-year period, which is currently £1,500, has not been increased. This is in line with the

intention of encouraging more businesses to apply for the three-year approval.

The Order also sets three new fees in parts 5, 6 and 7 of the schedule. Section 5 prescribes the

fee to book and subsequently use a registrar’s office for a civil marriage and civil partnership 7025

ceremony. It should be noted that certain commissioners already charge couples for using their

facilities when a ceremony is conducted in a registrar’s office within their accommodation, and the

fee proposed within this Order is similar to that charged by the commissioners. From the examples

provided earlier, Hon. Members will now be aware that other jurisdictions also charge a fee to use

a registrar’s office for a ceremony. 7030

Section 6 provides for couples to have a rehearsal at an approved place prior to the day that the

civil marriage or civil partnership is entered into. This service has been offered as a result of

numerous requests from customers, and whether or not to use the service will obviously be

something the customer can decide.

Section 7 prescribes a new fee should a couple wish to change the time and/or date of a 7035

marriage or civil partnership ceremony. This reflects the cost involved in the administration as a

result of the couple wanting to change their arrangements.

In reviewing the fees, introducing new ones and also putting in place new fee charging

structures for certain services, it is obviously very difficult to estimate what additional revenue

will be collected should the proposed Regulations and Orders be approved. Based on current levels 7040


_________________________________________________________________

1697 T130

of activity, the best estimate is that an additional £3,200 will be collected in total in revenue during

the remainder of the financial year 2013-14. Based on a complete financial year, it is estimated

that an additional income of £4,800 per annum would be collected in revenue.

If approved by this Hon. Court tonight, the Regulations and Orders will come into operation on

5th August 2013. 7045

Hon. Members, before making your vote, I would remind you that, aside from registering a

birth or a death – the fees for which fall under the Registration of Births and Deaths (Fees)

Regulations 2013 – the choice of whether or not to use any of the services offered by the other set

of Regulations in both Orders rests entirely with the customer. As I said earlier, we are considering

any of the fees prescribed in the context of the overall event it relates to. I trust Hon. Members will 7050

agree that the fees remain very modest.

On that final note, I beg to move motions 20 to 23 standing in my name.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Downie.

7055



The President: We will take the Items separately, Hon. Members.

First of all, we will vote on Item 20. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes 7060

have it. The ayes have it.




Company and Business Names etc Act 2012

Company and Business Names (Restricted Words and Phrases) Regulations 2013 approved


That the Company and Business Names (Restricted Words and Phrases) Regulations 2013 be


The President: Item 24, the Minister for the Treasury to move. 7065


The Company and Business Names (Restricted Words and Phrases) Regulations 2013 (‘the

Regulations’) are made under the Company and Business Names etc Act 2012 (‘the Act’).

This legislation has been made to address the recommendations of the International Monetary 7070

Fund (IMF) in the 2008-09 assessment of the Isle of Man. The IMF recommended that the existing

guidance notes on choosing a company or business name should be replaced with legislation.

There was no suggestion that the existing system did not serve its purpose; it was, as I said before,

simply a recommendation that guidance should be replaced by legislation. As the effect of

implementing this recommendation would be inevitable, the decision was made to comply with 7075

the recommendation.

The Act itself requires the appropriate name-approval authority to consult with certain named

consultees prior to approving the use of a word or phrase that would otherwise be restricted for use

in relation to particular activities. The Regulations provide a list of the words and phrases that

would normally apply if a particular activity is being undertaken. This includes words such as 7080

‘bank’, ‘insurance’, ‘estate agent’ and ‘college’. The consultees in respect of these words are the

Financial Supervision Commission, Insurance and Pensions Authority, Office of Fair Trading and

Department of Education and Children respectively.

Four additions have been made to the list of words and phrases that are covered by the existing

guidance. Two words have been removed from the list. 7085

Hon. Members will remember that the new Act also gave the appropriate named approval

authority a power to override objections by consultees. This is to ensure that a commonsense

approach is applied and that business does not get driven away because of overzealous

bureaucracy and red tape.


_________________________________________________________________

1698 T130

I would respectfully remind Hon. Members that the quid pro quo for this override power was 7090

the creation of a new register. This register will set out company and business names that contain

words and phrases that would otherwise be restricted in application to the undertaking of specific

activities. The existing guidance notes will be revised and sit alongside the Regulations.

Hon. Members, every effort has been made to ensure this new legislation does not impact

negatively on either the business conducted through the financial services sector or on the Island 7095

residents itself.


The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie.

7100



The President: The motion before the court is set out at Item 24. Those in favour, please say


Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989

Payment of Members’ Expenses (Travelling Allowances) (No. 2) Order 2013 approved


That the Payment of Members’ Expenses (Travelling Allowances) (No. 2) Order 2013 be


The President: Item 25, Minister for the Treasury to move.


Before I give details of the proposed Order, I thought that it might be helpful to explain that the

title is somewhat of a misnomer in that it deals with the expenses of all public service employees, 7110

and not just Hon. Members; however, I am constrained by primary legislation and have no option

but to move the Order under the current title, even though it is misleading to the casual observer.

It is Treasury policy to undertake an annual review of travelling allowances. As a result of this

year’s review, it is proposed to make the following changes to the Order: introduction of a new

rate for Members of the House Keys undertaking constituency business; the removal of 7115

entitlement for Members of Tynwald to claim mileage for home-to-work journeys and also return

– for the purposes of the Order, home to work is defined as home to Legislative Buildings; the

removal of the mileage rate for vehicles of 1300cc and over.

The Order now provides for one single rate for vehicles regardless of engine size and is set at

the previous rate for vehicles up to 1299cc. The previous rate for motorcycles is unchanged. 7120

The impact of the changes: these are that Members of the House of Keys will no longer be

entitled to claim mileage whilst undertaking constituency business; Members of Tynwald will no

longer be entitled to claim mileage in respect of home-to-work journeys; non-Tynwald members

of Statutory Boards, officers and committees will be entitled to claim mileage in respect of home-

to-work journeys. 7125

Since the mileage rates included in the Order are also applied to journeys undertaken by

Government officers, the total savings as a result of these measures is estimated to be in the region

of £80,000 per annum.

Madam President, I trust that all Members will appreciate the potential savings these minor

revisions to the Travelling Allowances Order will provide and the positive impact that 7130

surrendering these entitlements will demonstrate to both Government officers and the general

public in the current economic climate.


The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie. 7135




_________________________________________________________________

1699 T130

The President: The Hon. Mr Speaker. 7140


I am very pleased indeed that the Treasury Minister acknowledged at the start of his moving of

this Item that the primary legislation under which this Order is being moved, the Payment of

Members’ Expenses Act 1989, is in fact a misnomer because this is not about us. 7145

Mileage rate changes, which is the main purpose of this Order, when you read the Order and

explanatory memorandum, affects not us, but other members of Tynwald Boards and thousands of

public servants and civil servants. The trouble is whenever subsistence allowances are changed for

the Civil Service, or as in this case mileage rates, mileage allowances are consolidated at a single

rate, which is being done here, and it is done by reference to something called the Payment of 7150

Members’ Expenses Act. Of course, the frame of reference is ourselves and it should not be. It

should be us as Members of Tynwald, who by analogy are following the standards for the public

service and not civil servants following rates enshrined in law applicable to Members of Tynwald

because we are a tiny component of this reimbursement situation.

So I am very pleased indeed that the Minister clarified that because, as Chairman of the 7155

Emoluments Committee, it is certainly an issue that the Emoluments Committee has discussed,

and whenever the issue of expenses surfaces publicly, reference is made to the payment of

Members’ expenses, when in fact the bigger issue is the public service in the round. So I hope that

is something that the Council of Ministers will in fact look at and consider amending the primary

legislation, at least to get the terminology corrected, and that in future the main legislation is to 7160

govern the allowances and pay and conditions of the public sector, which Members of Tynwald

follow by analogy in the main.

When you look at the explanatory memorandum, I would say that there is something… I just

want to say a little bit about the effects of the changes.

First of all, in part 2, the changes in policy are set out: the nil mileage rate for Members of the 7165

House of Keys engaged in constituency business; the removal of entitlement for Members of

Tynwald to claim mileage from home to Legislative Buildings; and the removal of the mileage

rate for vehicle engine sizes of 1300cc and over – in other words, consolidating at one mileage

rate.

But when you look under the effects of changes, the first two of those bullet points are 7170

reflected: Members of the House of Keys will no longer be entitled to claim mileage whilst

undertaking constituency business. Well, I do not believe it is the case that anyone does anyway.

(Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) Members do not claim. I think the majority of Members do not claim

on the basis that they recognise that they get, as part of their salary, a tax-free expenses allowance

and they treat constituency expenses and constituency travel out of that allowance. So it gives me 7175

no difficulty and, I suspect, the Members of the Court as a whole no difficulty.

Then the second bullet point to the effects of changes: Members of Tynwald will no longer be

entitled to claim mileage in respect of home-to-work journeys. That is certainly what this Order

does, but the change is absolutely minimal here because that system has in effect withered on the

vine. It is quite some years since a majority of Members were claiming mileage in respect of 7180

home-to-work journeys and I believe there have been no claims at all from mileage made over the

last year or so.

But the third bullet point is not mentioned at all. The principal effect of the change, which was

the consolidation of the mileage rate at the single 1300cc rate, is the real change, and the effect of

that change is that people with big car engine sizes will get paid less for their mileage claims. That 7185

is the real change and that is borne out by the resource implication here: total savings estimated in

the region of £80,000 per annum. Well, any misinformed member of the media who got this and

any member of the public reading this would conclude that £80,000 is being saved by the changes

to Members of Tynwald (Laughter and Interjections) arrangements, and as I have just said, the

cost to the public purse is practically nil anyway – the mileage and the constituency business 7190

claims. The real change is for civil servants and members of Statutory Boards and members of

committees who claim mileage, that is where the £80,000 saving is going to take place.

So I felt it important to emphasise that and to the public listening, and not all members of the

media are with us at this stage in the evening, which is unfortunate because it is certainly the

written media in this Island from which the public derive their perceptions about what it is we pay 7195

ourselves and the expenses arrangements. So I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying and I am

hoping that my additional remarks, perhaps on behalf of the Emoluments Committee, have further

clarified the situation.

A Member: Well done. 7200


_________________________________________________________________

1700 T130



7205

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I just wonder whether the Minister can actually clarify the point that

Mr Speaker actually has alluded to that he actually tells what there is at the present time, as far as

Members’ mileage allowance is. I think, like he said, it is farcical to what it was many years ago. I

think this has been an issue that has been coming along for a long time, as far as Members’

expenses are concerned. It is 15 or 20 years ago that we started on this road. 7210

The only thing I would be interested in, apart from I think he needs to clarify what percentage

of this £80,000 actually affects Members of this Hon. Court, which will be very, very, very little…

what I am concerned about as far as this change of policy is concerned, and I have got no problem

of being in the vanguard of getting rid of – once we got a decent wage – the mileage allowance;

but one of the things that I am concerned about, I have never, as far as I am aware, ever claimed 7215

for constituency meetings in my own constituency anyway, to be perfectly honest with you, being

28 years in this Hon. Court. But I am just concerned about the fact that this deals with our

parliamentary role, but does not deal with those in executive Government, as far as that is

concerned, and maybe the mover can clarify what is the position. If you go to a departmental

meeting, are you now still entitled to claim travelling allowance, but you are not if you do 7220

parliamentary issues? I think it needs to be consistent on both sides.

One of the arguments I have had in this place for decades is the fact that we do not value the

parliamentary side of our job. The first job of an MHK, and all the Chiare as Feed, is the job of

being a legislator, and I am a little bit concerned that we are not having that consistency by the

looks of this. But I think it is important that he clarifies that is… whatever it is… £2,000 last year 7225

that was claimed out of that £80,000.

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: Thank you, Madam President. 7230

As Members have pointed out, and certainly Mr Speaker has mentioned, the bulk of this will

certainly affect the wide number of staff across Government who may use their own vehicle, and

really I stand by the principle that if we are expecting staff to use their own vehicle for work use,

they should at least be reimbursed for the use of their vehicle.

We can say we are going to encourage the use of smaller vehicles, but if those staff members 7235

have not got vehicles with a smaller engine size, then is that going to leave them out of pocket? In

which case, has there been any consultation done with staff members, who may just turn round

and say, ‘Well, it is not worth me using my own vehicle’? Therefore, the Department will have to

provide a pool car or a car for the use of whatever the duties those staff members are carrying out.

I think the principle is that if staff members are incurring expenses, they should be rightly 7240

provided and reimbursed for the expenses that they incur.

I can see a stage… I know from the private sector that staff members have said, ‘Well, it is not

worth me using my own car, so provide one.’ I think we could be running into problems, and so I

would like to know whether there has been a full impact assessed and what that could be if that

situation should arise. 7245



I will be brief. It is just a very small point that I would like the Minister to clarify. 7250

Under changes of policy, the first bullet says it is the introduction of a nil mileage rate for

Members – that is about constituency business. But the second point says ‘the removal of the

entitlement for Members to claim mileage for work to home journeys’. I am wondering why the

first one is an introduction of a nil mileage rate, rather than the removal of the entitlement. Why is

there that differential? 7255

Thank you.



Could I just, first of all, thank my seconder, who also seconded the previous motions as well. I

am very grateful to him for doing that.


_________________________________________________________________

1701 T130

I would also like to thank Mr Speaker for the co-operation of him and his colleagues on the

Emoluments Committee. We have had a series of discussions with him since May and so we really

do appreciate that and I have taken a note that it might well be better to amend the legislation 7265

going forward. So I have kept a copy of the Order and have put it to one side. So I undertake to

review that.

I do acknowledge that Members are not in the habit now of claiming for their home to

Legislative Buildings or indeed, for constituency business; but this really is putting the matter

beyond any shadow of doubt, and I would say that that is a better way of doing it, rather than 7270

leaving it to personal discretion. Let us just deal with it by way of secondary legislation.

He raised the point that owners of large-capacity cars are paid less. I would respectfully

suggest that it is their personal decision what type of vehicles they run and it is not a decision

which rests with the taxpayer. That is also a comment I would make to the Hon. Member of

Council, Mr Turner, although I do acknowledge that there will be pressure on some staff, who feel 7275

now that they are not prepared to use their own vehicle. We did discuss it with Departments, but

we do not think that that will be a major issue. We think it is the right thing to do in the

circumstances. It does reduce the impact of the vehicles and it encourages people to trade down

into smaller-capacity cars as well.

Mr Speaker did raise the issue too about clarifying matters with the media. I personally did 7280

explain to a member of the written media. I made it abundantly clear that the saving of £80,000

was not in respect of foregone claims by Members of this Hon. Court.

Mr Karran asked: what do Members claim? I have to say there are no individual details held by

Treasury and my recollection is that that information is held by the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office and

there have been questions put in this place or another place which have been answered about that 7285

in the past.

Mr Karran asked what percentage of the £80,000 is going to affect Tynwald Members: very

little, if any.

The definition of official business, which was raised by Mr Karran, and at the risk of boring

everybody, the advice I have got from the Learned Attorney General’s Chambers is as follows, 7290

and I quote:

‘Official business means parliamentary business other than constituency business and business undertaken on behalf of any office mentioned in section 1(2) of the Act or as a Member of a Board, Committee, Commission or body specified

in section 5(1)(b) to (d) of the Act.’

So I hope that that clarifies it for the Hon. Member.

Mrs Beecroft raised the issue, as I understand it, of the changes in policy – bullet points 2 and

3. This really had to do… Sorry, bullet points 1 and 2, I should say. I beg your pardon, Hon.

Member for South Douglas. This really had to tie in with the original legislation, as opposed to 7295

standing alone. It had to be drafted so it slots in with the original legislation. It is as

straightforward as that.

So with that, Madam President, I hope that has clarified issues which have been of concern to

Hon. Members. I beg to move.

7300




Tree Felling Licence (Fees) Order 2013 approved


That the Tree Felling Licence (Fees) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0192/13]

The President: Item 26, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move.


Eaghtyrane.

This Order continues the theme of the ‘user pays’ principle adopted by Government. It

introduces a charge for the issue of a tree felling licence in respect of a tree which is to be cut


_________________________________________________________________

1702 T130

down, uprooted or destroyed. The Department will continue to issue licences free of charge in

respect of pruning of registered trees. 7310

Provision is also made in the Order for emergency measures where a tree is considered to be in

an unstable or dangerous condition and poses a threat to persons or property.

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mrs Beecroft. 7315



The President: The motion before the Court is that the Tree Felling Licence (Fees) Order 7320

2013 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Sea Fisheries Act 1971

Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) Byelaws 2013 approved


That the Sea-Fisheries (Queen Scallop Fishing) (Amendment) Byelaws 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0193/13]

The President: Item 27, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture.


Eaghtyrane. 7325

These Byelaws introduce an additional change to the provisions brought to this Court last

month to assist the queen scallop fishing industry. This further change has been requested by both

the catching and processing sectors of the industry that see it as a further step in attempting to

achieve sustainability for their fishery moving forward.

As Members are aware, the Byelaws approved at the June sitting of Tynwald were the result of 7330

extensive consultation with stakeholders. This minor amendment to the new Byelaws effectively

means that virtually all of the territorial sea will be a net fishery for queenies, and this can only be

beneficial.

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name.

7335




7340



Agriculture (Severe Weather Assistance) Loans and Grant Scheme 2013 approved


That the Agriculture (Severe Weather Assistance) Loans and Grant Scheme 2013 be approved.

[GC No 0024/13]

The President: Item 28, the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture.


Eaghtyrane.

Members will recall a debate in this Chamber in May regarding agricultural policy. During that

debate I indicated that the Department was in the throes of developing a package to partly


_________________________________________________________________

1703 T130

compensate the agricultural industry for losses incurred during the devastating snow event in

March of this year. 7350

I am seeking approval today to the Scheme referred to in May, which will provide up to

£600,000-worth of compensation to farming businesses which were adversely affected at that

time. Extensive details on the calculation of payments made under the Scheme are contained in a

memorandum circulated to Members.

I would therefore, Eaghtyrane, move the resolution in my name. 7355



I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 7360


If no Hon. Member wishes to speak, the motion before the Court is set out at Item 28. Those in

favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Non-Resident Traders Act 1983

Non-Resident Traders (Licence Fees) Regulations 2013 approved

29. The Chairman of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading to move:

That the Non-Resident Traders (Licence Fees) Regulations 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0071/13]

The President: Item 29, the Chairman of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading to move. 7365

The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Quirk): Thank you, Madam President.

The Regulations prescribe the fee to be charged for licences issued by the Isle of Man Office of

Fair Trading to non-resident traders. Traders who reside off the Island, but choose to do occasional

business in the Isle of Man are considered to be non-traders under the purpose of the Non-Resident 7370

Traders Act 1983.

Subject to specified exemptions, the Act requires any trader who is not resident in the Isle of

Man, who attends or sells or exposes or offers for sale, or seeks orders for the sale of goods to

members of the public in the Island, to obtain a licence from the Office of Fair Trading.

No advertisement is permitted until a licence has been granted. Non-resident traders have to 7375

pay a licence fee to do business here. The fee for the licence depends on how long they are

planning to do business on the Island.

The OFT carries out fit and proper checks on those traders to provide protection for consumers.

The purpose of the standard fee should increase from £2,120 to £2,220 for the first three days of

the fee, and for additional fees and days increases from £320 to £335. 7380

If a trader is attending an event certified by the Department of Economic Development as

being of importance to the tourist industry and their goods are directly related to the event, then

the fee is reduced, but the licence is effective for the duration of the event only. It is the proposal

that the reduced fee should be increased from £370 to £450 for the whole event. The licence fee

was last revised in August 2011. 7385

Madam President, I beg to move.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Coleman.

Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President. 7390


The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Downie.

Mr Downie: Thank you, Madam President. 7395


_________________________________________________________________

1704 T130

Having looked at the explanatory memorandum which covers this Order that is before us this

evening, it does not really give us much background. So I am asking the Hon. Member here, we

are increasing the amount by £100, and so it is £2,220 for the first three days, then £335 each day

thereafter, and there is the special rate for tourist-related events. I wonder if the Hon. Member

could tell us: are the number of licences dropping or is it more cost effective now for these people 7400

to become a registered company in the Isle of Man and have a company set up here, which would

allow them to trade, or are you finding that they are teaming up with companies in the Isle of

Man? It would be interesting to know the statistics and how things actually work; and, if possible,

would the Hon. Member have the number of licences that were issued perhaps, say, for last year so

that we can get an understanding? 7405

Thank you.

The President: The Chairman to reply.

The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President. 7410

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane –

The President: Oh, Hon. Member… the Hon. Member for Onchan has just realised he wishes

to speak. 7415

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I just wanted to ask, with the issue of non-resident traders’ licences,

whether with the fact that we are in hard, difficult times, that maybe there should be some way

with a non-resident trader licence that we could try and get it on some sort of Manx VAT

registration as part of the non-residents trader licence. 7420

There are two reasons for this, and one is obviously it would mean that the VAT would be

coming back to the Isle of Man; and the second reason would be that it might actually be a much

more effective way of dealing with it by its turnover as far as its licence fee is concerned.

I just would like to… Obviously, it has not been done this time, but I would hope that the

Office of Fair Trading might consider doing this maybe at a future date and consider looking at the 7425

issue of that registration as part of being non-resident traders on the Island and then we can maybe

look at a more efficient way of making sure that (a) we get the VAT collected based on the Island;

and (b) it could be more on a turnover basis.

The President: The Chairman to reply. 7430

The Chairman: Thank you, Madam President.

On the last point from the Hon. Member for Onchan, there are other mechanisms that non-

traders can actually do by formulating a company on the Island, but obviously that will incur

charges and quite rightly, as the Member says there, they would be paying fees, VAT and stuff 7435

like that.

As far as the Office of Fair Trading is concerned, for those who just want the occasional

licence, those are the fees that are prescribed here today. I have indicated, too, that we have not

increased them since 2011.

Just for the Hon. Member of Council, Mr Downie, last year, roughly, there were 41 non-7440

resident traders and they were for events like the TT, the Manx Grand Prix and so forth. As I have

said to the previous question, there are other mechanisms, but I would say it is up to those

individuals to make that particular choice and discuss those individual avenues with their advisers.

The President: The motion before the Court is set out at Item 29 on your Order Paper. Those 7445



Moneylenders (Registration Fees) Order 2013 approved

30. The Chairman of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading to move:

That the Moneylenders (Registration Fees) Order 2013 be approved. [SD No 0072/13]


_________________________________________________________________

1705 T130

The President: Item 30, Chairman of the Office of Isle of Man Fair… Isle of Office…

Chairman of the Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading. (Laughter)

7450

Mr Watterson: We know who you mean! (Laughter)

The Chairman of the Office of Fair Trading (Mr Quirk): Thank you, Madam President.

The Order prescribed is the fee to be charged for the registration of the moneylenders by the

Isle of Man Office of Fair Trading. It seeks to increase the fee from £410 to £500. These fees are 7455

payable at registration to each registration for the last three years. The new fees equate to £166 per

year.

The Moneylenders Act 1991 provides that only persons who are fit and proper persons to carry

out be registered as moneylenders and in order to proceed an application, the OFT needs to

undertake checks to establish a fit and proper test. The OFT believe that the fee of £166 per annum 7460

is reasonable to register to act as a moneylender. The registration fee was last revised in

August 2011.

Madam President, I beg to move.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Coleman. 7465

Mr Coleman: Thank you, Madam President.


The President: The motion before the Court is that the Moneylenders (Registration Fees) 7470

Order 2013 be approved. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes

have it.


Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2013 approved

31. The Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority to move:

That the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2013 be approved.

[SD No 0178/13]

The President: Item 31, the Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority to move.

The Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority (Mr Cannan): Madam 7475

President, today I am asking this Hon. Court to approve the Isle of Man Government Unified

Scheme (Amendment) Scheme 2013.

Hon. Members will recall that the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme 2011 was

approved in the June 2011 sitting. The purpose of this Amendment Scheme is to update the

Unified Scheme in two main areas: firstly, with changes which are broadly clarifying in nature, 7480

based on the PSPA’s experience of administering the Scheme for a year and the type of queries

about Scheme provisions which have been raised by stakeholders and which are unclear in the

current Scheme rules; secondly, changes which provide technical updates and guidance in respect

of current provisions.

A summary of the changes are as follows. Firstly, clarification changes to current definitions 7485

and the inserting of new definitions to cover aspects of the Scheme, such as a 40-year member, a

child, a civil servant, a clinical officer of Hospice Care, final pensionable pay, and so on. None of

these changes fundamentally change the provisions of or benefits under the Scheme.

Secondly, the removal of remaining references to the former Superannuation Act 1984 and

updating the rules with appropriate references to the Public Sector Pensions Act 2011, where 7490

required.

Thirdly, clarification of the rules for certain aspects of the Scheme, such as the definition of

pensionable pay; final pensionable pay for hospital doctors close to retirement, which replicate

previous provisions; the treatment of some periods of absence, which also replicates previous

provisions; the treatment of additional pension brought by members who subsequently retire on 7495

the grounds of ill health; clarification of the age from which divorced members can take their

benefits; benefits on incapacity and death in service, and so on.


_________________________________________________________________

1706 T130

Fourthly, updating the rules in respect of the circumstances under which a pension can be

forfeited. The rules previously made reference to UK legislation which has now been revoked. The

amendment now incorporates into the Scheme the actual circumstances which can lead to 7500

forfeiture of a pension, which was the case within schemes prior to the introduction of the Unified

Scheme.

Madam President, as I have outlined, the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme

(Amendment) Scheme 2013 seeks to clarify certain areas of the Scheme and to provide technical

updates and guidance in respect of Scheme provisions to members and other stakeholders. 7505

I wish to assure this Hon. Court that it does not seek to fundamentally affect or change the

design of the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme 2011 and I therefore request that this Hon.

Court give favourable consideration to this Scheme.

Madam President, I beg to move that the Isle of Man Government Unified Scheme

(Amendment) Scheme 2013 be approved. 7510

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Turner.

Mr Turner: I beg to second, Madam President.

7515

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.


Just very quickly, I just notice that the Scheme comes into operation on 15th May 2013, and

perhaps it would be helpful subsequently just to explain that very briefly. 7520

Also I notice that there is mention of consultation in the Scheme itself and I did notice that in

your introduction you talked about stakeholders requiring these. Perhaps you could just say briefly

something more about the consultation, in case there are any questions later.

And finally, in case there are any errors on this technical thing, perhaps you could just put on

record whether it was drawn up internally or whether you have got specialist advisers who help 7525

you draw this up and that sort of thing, because I am aware of some issues that have arisen with a

parallel set of regulations and scheme.


7530


You will know the subject of public sector pensions is something that I have spoken about on a

number of occasions in sittings this year. The reason I do this is because one of the most important

items in my manifesto is about the future sustainability of our Island. I consider that the lack of

financial viability and increasing future liability linked to public sector pensions currently is the 7535

biggest single threat to our future financial security and prosperity, and therefore I make no

apology for the fact that I often raise this matter in this Hon. Court.

I am therefore seeking to delay the enactment of both Items 31 and 32 on the Order Paper

today because I think what we are doing at the moment is tinkering at the edges of Schemes that

are fundamentally flawed – moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. 7540

It has been nearly two years since we were elected and we have got to face the fact that

ensuring the future viability of public sector pensions is the mountain that we all have to climb

together if we are to guarantee the future sustainability of our Island.

So many external and demographic threats are ahead of us. We have a rapidly increasing

ageing population. There are very low UK interest rates. UK policy on quantitative easing shows 7545

no sign of abating, and as a result we are paying out far more money in pensions than ever

predicted when any of the schemes were put in place, and I would equally say that includes the

Unified Pension Scheme.

What I am quite sure about is that public sector pensions are out of control and it is about time

we took the reins back off them. I noted only last week that the BBC has introduced caps to lump 7550

sums their retiring executives are drawing from their final salary scheme.

We have appointed independent experts in PricewaterhouseCoopers and I would like to see

what recommendations they have to make before we are asked to consider any more changes for a

Scheme that, as I have said, I believe to be fundamentally flawed.

I therefore urge Hon. Members not to vote for these amendments, Items 31 and 32, and wait 7555

until we receive the PricewaterhouseCoopers and the Government Actuary Department’s reports

in the autumn before any amendments are made.



_________________________________________________________________

1707 T130

The President: Can I just seek some clarity? 7560

You are not proposing an adjournment debate. You are just encouraging people to vote

against. Is that the case?

Mr Ronan: I cannot have an adjournment, I have been told. (Interjections)

7565

A Member: Vote against.

The President: Could you clarify this issue with the Clerk?

Mr Ronan: No. I am happy just to encourage people to vote against it. 7570

The President: Very well, Hon. Members, the Hon. Member is counselling you to vote

against.

Does any other Member wish to speak?

7575

Mr Ronan: Madam President, sorry, just for clarification –

Two Members: Stand up.

Mr Ronan: Sorry. Just for clarification: I can ask for an adjournment, did you say? 7580

A Member: No.

A Member: Yes.

7585

The President: You cannot have an amendment, but you could seek an adjournment.

Mr Karran: Hear, hear.

Mr Ronan: Yes, I am sorry, I misheard that. That is what I would like to propose. 7590

The President: Then you must define when you want it to be adjourned until, Hon. Member.

Mr Ronan: It will be until the Actuary’s Department and PricewaterhouseCoopers’ Report is

made available, so I would imagine probably… 7595

The President: It would be helpful if it was not an imaginary… Can we have a date,

Hon. Member?

Two Members: October. (Interjections) 7600

Mr Ronan: Yes, October. I beg to move:

That this debate be adjourned to the sitting of the Court in October 2013.

The President: Right. 7605

Does any other Member wish to speak?

The Hon. Member –

Mr Crowe: It has not been seconded.

7610

The President: Do you want to speak to the proposal, sir? It has not been seconded.

Mr Quayle: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

A Member: You cannot reserve your remarks. 7615

The President: You cannot reserve your remarks, sir, but we will take it you are seconding.

Speak now, if you wish to speak to the adjournment.


_________________________________________________________________

1708 T130

Now, Hon. Members, we have moved into an adjournment debate and the Five-Minute Rule

will apply. 7620

Does anyone wish to speak to the adjournment?

The Hon. Member, Mr Karran.

Mr Karran: I think the point is that the Hon. Member for Castletown has got some very valid

points about the whole issue as far as the public sector pension situation is concerned and its 7625

sustainability. I have to totally agree that it is one of the issues that we have been very concerned

about for about six or seven years. In fact, it was good how, when we had a windfall from the

VAT, we actually put money in from that into reserves to create that principle because of it.

So I am minded to support the Hon. Member for Castletown on the basis that it is serious. I

believe, Eaghtyrane, promises made have to be kept, and my concern is that, as some of us who 7630

have said – what… six years ago – I would have seen the increases in contributions, the issue as

far as freezing the final salary pension scheme several years ago, because what has been promised

has to be honoured and I believe that we need to be actually looking at the issue of affordability.

So I am very sympathetic towards the Member for Castletown as far as the proposal that we

need to have clear facts in order to make sure that we make the decisions. 7635

One of the biggest concerns I have, Eaghtyrane, is when we were in the Council of Ministers I

wanted to see all the hard decisions (Interjection) made on the unpopular things at the beginning

of the administration; and if, by adjourning this Item, that will mean that in October we can make

those decisions, then I am happy to support that. But I would like to know the Chairman of the

Civil Service Commission’s viewpoint as far as the Pensions Authority is concerned. 7640

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Hall.


Just on a point of order, I declare an interest at this time as my wife is a serving police officer. I 7645

have sought the advice of the Clerk of Tynwald, who has advised me that I am entitled to be in the

Court and to vote as well at this time.

Moving on, having declared my interest in that, in respect of –

The President: Hon. Member, are you talking about the Police Pensions (Amendment) 7650

Regulations?

Mr Hall: Police Pensions… on Item number –

The President: We are not yet on that Item, sir. 7655

Mr Hall: The adjournment is to move Items 31 and 32, so it includes Item 32, if my

understanding is correct.

The President: He cannot move an adjournment of Item 32 until it has actually formally been 7660

moved. We have to deal with them one at a time, Hon. Members.

The Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.

The Vice-Chairman: Thank you, Madam President.

Whilst I appreciate the Hon. Member for Castletown’s concerns, which he has raised now a 7665

number of times in the last couple of sittings, I have to say this is effectively purely administrative

(Several Members: Hear, hear.) changes regarding… [Inaudible] scheme.

Delaying this or adjourning this actually only makes life more difficult (Several Members:

Hear, hear.) for the officers and for the Members of the Scheme. I would urge the Court to reject

that adjournment and proceed with the debate. 7670



7675


I think the Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority has clarified what I was

going to ask: that it is purely making clarity for some of the items, rather than altering anything in

there, and it does not preclude any discussion once we have the actuarial report.


_________________________________________________________________

1709 T130

I totally sympathise with Mr Ronan’s sentiments in this and I certainly look forward to that 7680

broader debate, but I just think at this time that, as all it is doing is clarifying some of the

terminology within the existing Scheme that we have, I do not see how we can actually object to

that if it gives Members clarity until we can have that proper debate, which I do look forward to.

Thank you.

7685


The President: The mover of the adjournment may reply.


I would just like to thank everybody who got to their feet and obviously showed a lot of

sympathy to what my concerns are.

I do appreciate also that these changes are mainly administrative, but to me it is what should

come first. I think this happens a lot in this Court. I think we are dealing with issues where there

are smaller issues initially, as you say, or shall we go for the big issue first. I believe we should go 7695

for the big issue.

I stand by what I said and I ask Members to support.

The President: The motion before the Court then, Hon. Members, is an adjournment proposal,

and that is that this Item – Item 31 – be adjourned until October. Those in favour, please say aye; 7700

against, no. The noes have it.

A division was called for.

The President: This requires 13 votes in the Keys and five in the Council, Hon. Members.

Electronic voting resulted as follow:


FOR Mr Hall Mr Ronan Mr Quayle

AGAINST Mr Quirk Mr Karran Mr Crookall Mr Anderson Mr Bell Mr Singer Mr Cannan Mr Cregeen Mr Houghton Mrs Beecroft Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmin Mr Thomas Mr Cretney Mr Watterson Mr Skelly Mr Gawne The Speaker

The Speaker: Madam President, in the Keys 3 votes for, 18 against.


FOR None

AGAINST Mr Corkish Mr Wild Mr Crowe Mr Downie The Lord Bishop Mr Butt Mr Turner Mr Coleman

The President: In the Council, no votes for and 8 against. The adjournment proposal fails to

carry, Hon. Members.


_________________________________________________________________

1710 T130

We continue with the debate on the motion on the Order Paper. 7705

Several Members: Vote!

The President: Vice-Chairman to reply.

7710

The Vice-Chairman: Thank you, Madam President.

I just need to go back to Mr Thomas, who has raised a couple of points there. Firstly, in respect

of the date, it would appear to me that that date… because this action is effectively just amending,

I think the date has been incorporated. I will double-check to make sure that everything is

watertight as far as that goes, but because it is administrative I do not think it will impact, but I 7715

will check on that for you and come back to you, and if there is an issue I will obviously come

straight back to the Court on that.

As far as the stakeholders go, there was a consultation. Members, stakeholders, unions, chief

officers and Treasury have been consulted on these changes. There was no adverse feedback on

the proposed changes to the Scheme and limited responses. Of those who did respond, most of the 7720

responses were requesting clarifications rather than expressing concern at any of these changes.

I would just reassure the Member that the PSPA does use specialist advisers, both legal and

financial, to make sure that all its work is accurate in terms of legal amendments to these Schemes.

I beg to move.

7725




Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 approved

32. The Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority to move:

That the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 be approved. [SD No 0179/13]

The President: Item 32, the Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority to move.

The Vice-Chairman of the Public Sector Pensions Authority (Mr Cannan): Madam 7730

President, today I am asking this Hon. Court to approve the Police Pensions (Amendment)

Regulations 2013.

The Police Pensions Regulations in the Isle of Man follow the provisions, benefits and

contributions of the equivalent UK regulations. However, changes that are made to the equivalent

UK regulations are not made automatically in the Island, but have to be introduced via amending 7735

legislation.

The amending Regulations apply the UK Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2006 to

the Island such that the schedules to the Police (Injury Benefit) Regulations 2010 and the Police

Pensions Regulations 2010 are amended so that references to a civil partner or civil partnerships

are treated as never having being omitted. 7740

The application of this statutory instrument also inserts such references to the Police Pensions

Regulations 1987, which were applied to the Island in 1991.

These Regulations also apply to the Island, with suitable modifications, the Police Pensions

(Amendment) Regulations 2010, which seek to do the following: firstly, to provide clarification of

the calculation of the lump sum for which police officers with less than 30 years’ service can 7745

commute their pension in the limited circumstances where an officer retires one day before

reaching 30 years’ service and below the age of 50; secondly, to enable a party to a medical appeal

to recover from the other party any expenses incurred as a result of the cancellation or

postponement of an appeal hearing, where the cancellation or postponement occurs less than 22

days before the hearing date and is the fault of the other party; thirdly, to enable officers on 7750

maternity leave to continue to pay pension contributions whilst they are in receipt of Maternity

Allowance; and finally, omitting paragraph 14(1) of the schedule to the Police Pensions

Regulations 2010, correcting an error in those Regulations which allows for police officers of any

rank to voluntarily retire after the date they achieve 55 years of age.


_________________________________________________________________

1711 T130

Hon. Members, these changes are supported by the Police Federation and by the Department of 7755

Home Affairs and full consultation has occurred with affected members via the Police Federation.

The changes seek to update the Police Pensions Scheme in the Island with relevant changes in

respect of civil partnerships and to introduce similar modifications and clarifications as applied to

the UK Police Pensions Scheme.

I therefore request that the Hon. Court gives favourable consideration to these Regulations. 7760

Madam President, I beg to move that the Police Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2013 be

approved.

The President: The Hon. Member, Mr Watterson.

7765

Mr Watterson: I beg to second.

The President: If no Hon. Member wishes to speak, the motion before the Court is set out at

Item 32 on your Order Paper. Those in favour, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The

ayes have it. 7770

Hon. Members, that concludes the business on our Order Paper and Tynwald Court will now

move into recess.

I know that the business of Departments, Boards and Committees will continue, but I hope that

during the summer recess you will all have an opportunity to take some holiday – well deserved it

is, too. 7775

The Council will now withdraw and leave the House of Keys to transact such business as

Mr Speaker may place before it.

The Council withdrew.

House of Keys

The Speaker: Hon. Members, I reiterate the sentiments of Madam President.

The House will now stand adjourned until Tuesday, 15th October, in our own Chamber.

Thank you, Hon. Members. 7780

The House adjourned at 9.40 p.m.