rinoa=ultimecia part 1

of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/16/2003 12:44:32 PM | Message DetailI've been thinking about this for a long while, and it just makes more sense all the time. I need to discuss it with him.

A while ago a poster made a topic about three theories on Ultimecia. 1) She wanted to live forever. 2) She was an angel of sorts. 3) Ultimecia IS Rinoa.

The third is the theory I'm thinking of. I'm hoping to discuss it with the one whoe originally posted it. It's just . . . such a fascinating concept.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 12:48:49 PM | Message DetailSounds unlikely, but I will admit motives aren't well explained in the game.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: UltraMega Weapon | Posted: 6/16/2003 12:53:39 PM | Message DetailI think Baal or another of those evil Bablyonian gods made it up.Because Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia.---Mahalo.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/16/2003 12:59:02 PM | Message DetailThis guy brought up a lot of good points to support it.

1) Rinoa had becomes a Sorceress. Thus, she would have an extended life. She wouldn't grow old with Squall, and would watch him die. This fills her with grief.

2) Griever. The GF has the same name as the ring Squall gave Rinoa. The GF's name implies grief, that Rinoa suffered when Squall died.

3) Ultimecia's castle is built by the field where Squall promised he would be.

They're subtle hints, just the same as Squall being Laguna's son. It's not said right out, but it is implied.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:07:08 PM | Message Detail1) Rinoa had becomes a Sorceress. Thus, she would have an extended life. She wouldn't grow old with Squall, and would watch him die. This fills her with grief.

Nowhere in the game does it say that Sorceress have extended lives.

2) Griever. The GF has the same name as the ring Squall gave Rinoa. The GF's name implies grief, that Rinoa suffered when Squall died.

Griever isn't actually a GF when you fight him. That is a mistranslation. Actually Ultimicia reaches into his mind and pulls out Griever. It is the symbolism of grief for losing "sis".

3) Ultimecia's castle is built by the field where Squall promised he would be.

It is another part of the story showing where they will meet again after time compression. Somehow he knew he would be there afterwords maybe he membered meeting himself in the past and that is how he knew.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:11:08 PM | Message DetailI don't support the -Ultimecia = Rinoa- theory, but I'm getting sick of this rumor that Ulty calling Griever a GF is a translation error. It isn't, she says the same thing in the Japanese version. Trust me, I own it, I've seen it.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: UltraMega Weapon | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:19:46 PM | Message DetailAll GF apparently means is a monster that is your ally anyway, people.Just look at Tonberry. No more special than Ifrit, Quezacotl or Eden. They're all different.So what if Griever is a GF.Anyway, that's right, Sorceresses don't live longer at all.Rinoa cannot be Ultimecia.---Mahalo.From: Vinzer Deling | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:20:39 PM | Message DetailYes, I'm sick and tired of these proposterous, out-of-the-blue theories. For heaven's sake, can't we move on with life? ---Love is blind devotion, unquestioning self-humiliation, trust and belief against yourself and against the whole world- Miss Havisham, Great ExpectationsFrom: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:23:17 PM | Message DetailIf a sorceress can't die until she passes on her powers, then apparently a sorceress can live indefinitely, as long as she does't pass them on.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:23:45 PM | Message DetailGriever being a GF has been confirmed as a translation error. But not all GFs are junctionable (Angelo [yeah he is considered one on cards standards], Phoenix, Odin, Gilgamesh, Minimog, and Friendship)---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:25:48 PM | Message DetailIt hasn't confirmed as a translation error, because it isn't a translation error. She says the same thing in the Japanese version. Someone lied to you pal, sorry to break it to you. ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:27:46 PM | Message Detail

This is not about the translation debate. There are other topics for that.

Where is that guy?---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:36:44 PM | Message DetailIt doesn't matter what topic the false rumor appears in, I'll correct it where ever I see it.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:40:30 PM | Message DetailLast I knew that was the big news and everybody quit debating in a runaround circle of endlessness. Figures...---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:46:48 PM | Message DetailFrom: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:23:17 PM | Message Detail If a sorceress can't die until she passes on her powers, then apparently a sorceress can live indefinitely, as long as she does't pass them on.

That is a bit implied though. Edea was worried on of the children would inherit the sorceress powers. That tells us, that probably the first person she comes in contact with will probably get the sorceress power. Also, a sorceress like Ultimicia may be forced somehow against her will to pass them on. You can't say anything like this as definite with such little info on the passing.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:55:07 PM | Message DetailUltimecia had to pass on her powers because she was "killed" by Squall and co. There's nothing to indicate that she would ever have needed to pass them on if that hadn't happened. To say otherwise is pure speculation. My point stands because it was directly stated in the game. =P ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:57:38 PM | Message DetailFunny, mine stands because it is directly demonstrated in the game.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 1:59:39 PM | Message DetailAnd to top it off, the game never states that she would not have to pass on her power either after reaching a certain age or getting near natural death.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:04:31 PM | Message Detail*Takes the time to quote himself*"Last I knew that was the big news and everybody quit debating in a runaround circle

of endlessness. Figures..."---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Geasha | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:13:15 PM | Message DetailSPOILERS:---------I have made a lot of research about this theory a while ago, and as fascinating as it may be, Rino is not Ulty.HOWEVER, they have a strong connection to eachother, because since Ulty gives her power to Edea, and then Edea will gives Ulty's power to Rinoa(after you defeat her), Rinoa is a kind of "reincarnation" of Ulty in term of sorceress power. But most of all, since Rinoa is the last sorceress of her time(having absorbed Adel's power), she is also a kind of "ancestor" of Ulty, because she will end up giving back Ulty her power through generations of sorceresses, unwillingly helping Ultimecia becoming the greatest sorceress. This is the time paradox of the game. Ulty's powers were never created,they were always there, through a time loop.(Ulty-->Edea-->Rinoa-->back to Ulty).-About the R=U theory:Sorceress don't have an extended life span: Adel is only from 17 years ago, not from the far past as the creator of this theory said, and she didn't age during this time because she was sealed in space.-Ulty places her castle here because it's where the SeeDs originate, it's there that they were created. She does this by defiance.-Griever was created from Squall's imagination, if you scan him it says so. It is the greatest GF,in Squall's mind.-i have other things that disprove this theory, but the point is that although Rino and Ulty have strong connections due to the time loop, they are not the same. ---I tricked you.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page, but not directly to the FAQs.

From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:19:05 PM | Message DetailEdea was worried on of the children would inherit the sorceress powers. That tells us, that probably the first person she comes in contact with will probably get the

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/legal/

sorceress power.

So what? It's a moot point. As I said, the only reason Ultimecia was going to pass on her powers in the first place was because she was killed by force. What does it matter if the first person she comes into contact to receives her powers? That has no bearing on any of this.

Also, a sorceress like Ultimicia may be forced somehow against her will to pass them on.

Clearly, since this is what happened. But if Squall and co. hadn't forced her to, who's to say someone else would have? You can speculate all you want, but in the end, that's all it is: pure speculation. If someone else would have been able to do it, then what's the significance of Squall doing it? It doesn't work from a "hero myth/legend" standpoint. The hero is supposed to be the only one capable of defeating the villain.

Last I knew that was the big news and everybody quit debating in a runaround circle of endlessness. Figures...

Uh... OK. And your point here is...? ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: dogbert | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:19:08 PM | Message Detailalso, i dont think that ultimeca had to pass her powers on before she died

spoilers:

at the end she gives her powers to matron, and matron says that if she didnt give away her powers, ultimeca would die in agony or something like that.From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:29:43 PM | Message DetailYou know, you might be right. Edea says "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." She doesn't just say "in order to die," period. ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:32:04 PM | Message DetailSo what? It's a moot point. As I said, the only reason Ultimecia was going to pass on her powers in the first place was because she was killed by force. What does it matter if the first person she comes into contact to receives her powers? That has no bearing on any of this.

Yeah it does, it shows that if there are actual people in the world then she will live only until she passes on her power. Now if there were no people in the world you could say she would live indefinitely. But to say she will never come in contact with somebody is an insult to anybody's intelligence.

Clearly, since this is what happened. But if Squall and co. hadn't forced her to, who's to say someone else would have? You can speculate all you want, but in the end,

that's all it is: pure speculation. If someone else would have been able to do it, then what's the significance of Squall doing it? It doesn't work from a "hero myth/legend" standpoint. The hero is supposed to be the only one capable of defeating the villain.

It is also speculation to say that Ultimicia lived forever as an immortal until defeated seeing as it is only demonstrated in the game. But obviously you only go for things stated in the game right?

Uh... OK. And your point here is...?

That we are running around in circles endlessly even though we both pretty much are against this theory all together and are unaccepting of each other's views. Pretty humorous if you ask me.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 2:37:54 PM | Message DetailI guess I just don't understand your argument there. Edea came into contact with people. Adel came into contact with people. They didn't just automatically pass on their powers when they did so. Why would Ultimecia? ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:05:36 PM | Message DetailYes, but now we have to ask the inverse, why wouldn't they? If they were about to die, were mortal, and only their power was immortal, then why wouldn't they pass on their powers as Ultimicia did? If death was at their door like with Ultimicia, and they were mortal human beings with immortal power, then why wouldn't they? The game never says the Sorceress, are immortal and live forever. So from that I can say, that they were mortal with a power that is passed on upon death. And that power that makes a sorceress, a sorceress, does last forever, and started with Hyne. But the game never states that the sorceress' power is passed upon death either. But this is demonstrated in the end.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Arcan | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:11:38 PM | Message Detailblah blah blah you dont shut up do you? This conversation is going to go on and on and on.....---It ain't broke, but I can make it better!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:14:40 PM | Message DetailAlright, alright, (laughs) hey the kid has a sense of humor!---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:33:07 PM | Message DetailFor the record, I was done. Speak up a little sooner next time. =P---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:35:30 PM | Message Detail

I did, the only reason this was bumped to the top was because I made revisions. One of my last sentences didn't make sense.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Druff | Posted: 6/16/2003 3:36:34 PM | Message DetailI was talking to Arcan.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/16/2003 6:52:28 PM | Message DetailDamnit, all of you shut up.This topic has gone nowhere other than end up debating a single line uttered by Edea.I still want to discuss it with the guy who came up with it.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: rapap | Posted: 6/16/2003 9:20:27 PM | Message DetailI'm guessing the poster you are looking for hasn't read this topic. The points you have brought up are based on a fanfic so if you want you can do a 'net search on the subject and then contact the author of the fanfic.

This is one reason I am having a hard time believing this theory. The 'subtle hints' that are mentioned are a stretch compared to the hints suggesting that Squall is Lagina's son and have more than adequately been addressed. It much easier to argue that Ultimecia is not Riona than to argue that Squall isn't Laguna's son.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Druff | Posted: 6/17/2003 12:29:33 AM | Message DetailWe were already done debating sideswipe, so YOU shut up. ---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: Silver Eyes | Posted: 6/17/2003 1:07:25 AM | Message DetailBut most of all, since Rinoa is the last sorceress of her time

i'd just like to state for the sake of clearing up the record that this is not necessarily true. looking through the Information section, it says that the current number of Sorceresses is unknown. granted, Odine does say that Rinoa is the only Sorceress, but that doesn't make it true. it's possible that he meant she was the only one Ultimecia could possess (since Rinoa was the only remaining person with Sorceress powers that she knew about), or he could have very well been flat out wrong. those Estharians are bright but far from infallible, mind you.---...and she spoke no more. For her, there was no need for words.~Silver & Soulless~ ]|[Fujin's Eternal Fanboy]|[From: Naughty Monkey | Posted: 6/17/2003 1:28:26 AM | Message DetailNo one HERE made up the Ultimecia = Rinoa theory. The person you're talking about took the theory from one of the many dozens of FF8 sites. No one knows who officially thought up the theory, although the theory has been around since the game's

release in Japan. However, it can be sure that whoever formed the theory did not have a very clear understanding of the storyline at all and most likely dreamed up this folly to try and make connections that did not actually exist. Officials at Square have already admitted: Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia.

If you want to continue believing Rinoa = Ultimecia, that's cool with me, but you might as well keep believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Now the Tooth Fairy, she's real. And hot too.---Don't blame me for the monkeypox.From: Brave Raideen | Posted: 6/17/2003 1:52:16 AM | Message Detail> Officials at Square have already admitted: Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia. <

you were doing so well, and then you had to spoil it by saying something so lame. square has NEVER issued any kind of a statement regarding the plots of any of their games. the whole point of their stories is to get people thinking and talking, like people are here. use your brain

From: Naughty Monkey | Posted: 6/17/2003 2:07:15 AM | Message DetailMy only possible response to your statement, Brave Raiden is:

"Yes, huh!"

Square had indeed released an official statement by the creator itself during an official interview. But it doesn't matter. I'm too tired to debate the matter this early in the morning and it would be a feeble attempt to try and convince you. So: "Yes huh!"---Don't blame me for the monkeypox.From: Brave Raideen | Posted: 6/17/2003 2:17:32 AM | Message Detailyeah, thats greatFrom: rapap | Posted: 6/17/2003 2:29:11 AM | Message DetailNaughty Monkey

Listing a specific reference or providing a link would help validate your argument. I'd like to see this alleged official statment myself (hoping it's not from FF:AB). Otherwise the argument is going to boil down to:

'they did too!'

'they did not!'

Repeat Ad Nauseum---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25



From: Bahamutmon | Posted: 6/17/2003 4:30:43 AM | Message DetailActually,I've figured it all out.

Ultimecia IS Rinoa.

But,Rinoa,in reality,later on dies and her body becomes a mere puppet by the REAL master of the universe.....

Kuroneko-sama from Trigun!

That's right,Kuroneko-sama used advanced suppa-cat magic to take over Rinoa's dead body and make her Ultimecia!That's why Ulty pronounces everything with a hard "K",it's for Kuroneko-sama!

You see,this was all part of Kuroneko-sama's wonderful master plan....to "kompress" time,not into what it was made out to be in the game,but to an endless reality of CHEESE!And Kuroneko-sama would rule over this Cheese-Dimension with Ultimecia as his personal cheese chef!And everyone would be happy because they were ruled by Kuroneko-sama and lived in a CHEESE REALITY!!!

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Yes,I am insane,by the way.---"@)!%*^#$!%#$!^*%($%$#$^)#)^$($^$#*&!!!!"-Cid,Final Fantasy 7 A winnar is j00!-archraven12From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/17/2003 8:54:25 PM | Message DetailSuch dry humor.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 6/17/2003 9:38:48 PM | Message DetailI agree with the theory, and I have never seen any statements from square pertaining to this theory in any way. However naughty monkey, it's people like you who cause me to post in these topics. I know people will never agree so I generally ignore these topics. Don't lie, though, and say that Square has said anything about it. Then when someone calls your bluff, you say you're tired and don't even try to defend what you said. I have e-mailed square(in the past-about a year ago),and they told me that their had never been, and would probably never be, any such announcement.

I would also like to rephrase what I first said. I think that square wants the player to decide for themselves.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: YO456 | Posted: 6/17/2003 10:01:21 PM | Message Detailgriever inst for rinoas grief.why?i have the spanish version, and in this version, the default name for griever (i believe, he is the second form of ulty, isnt he?) is Griphus, which has nothing to do with grief

or feeling sad. there are many changes in the translation, and for example, ultimecia is called Artemisa, Ultima is called Artema and many others.oh,and bahamutmon, your jokes suck.From: Bahamutmon | Posted: 6/18/2003 2:44:17 AM | Message DetailYou DARE mock Kuroneko-sama and the Cheese-Dimension?!You shall BURN for all eternity in the pit of inferno known as 4Kids Animation,the ruiners of brilliance!And my jokes are usually never funny,their not meant to be,their supposed to be generally insane and random.It's my hobby,spreading insanity and stupitidy across the multiverse is quite fun.---"@)!%*^#$!%#$!^*%($%$#$^)#)^$($^$#*&!!!!"-Cid,Final Fantasy 7 A winnar is j00!-archraven12From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 3:39:00 AM | Message DetailNo, Ultimecia calling Greiver a GF IS a mistranslation. There have been countless people proving this, providing scripts etc. etc. etc.....

Also:

*Sorceresses being able to live LONG periods of time is snatched out of thin air, and thus cannot be used as an argument for the Rinoa=Ulty theory.

*Ultimecia Castle is not OVER the Orphanage, but one of the chains reach out to it. The castle could be far away. Besides, the location of the Orphanage is a central World Position, which is reason enough to put it there.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Banya | Posted: 6/18/2003 5:27:42 AM | Message DetailWell I support the theory. You wanna sit there and consistently prove why it isn't true, yet can't prove any theory of your own you believe, then you are insignificant.

I'd rather believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. That way Ultimecia actually has a character, rather than being just some sorceress you gotta defeat.

All I ever hear is "ITS NEVER HINTED IN THE GAME" or "ITS NEVER SAID IN THE GAME". Thats the whole POINT of FF8. They don't make it absolutely clear. You have to use the evidence to come up with your own conclusion. So if people wanna believe this theory then stop bringing up your lack of proof when its up to the person to decide.---"Which do you think is mroe important? Women? Or Daccat's Treasure. Besides, with Daccat's Treasure, we'll be able to get more women." - GilderFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 6:11:24 AM | Message DetailWell I support the theory. You wanna sit there and consistently prove why it isn't true, yet can't prove any theory of your own you believe, then you are insignificant.

Oh God, one would think it's obvious what "theory" I believe in. yes, I belive that Rinoa is NOT Ultimecia, and by disproving the opposite, I am proving mine. Think

before writing next time.

I'd rather believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia. That way Ultimecia actually has a character, rather than being just some sorceress you gotta defeat.

And you were complaining about me not giving any proof.

All I ever hear is "ITS NEVER HINTED IN THE GAME" or "ITS NEVER SAID IN THE GAME". Thats the whole POINT of FF8. They don't make it absolutely clear. You have to use the evidence to come up with your own conclusion. So if people wanna believe this theory then stop bringing up your lack of proof when its up to the person to decide.

Actually, if you had read what I wrote, you would have gotten what I meant.

I didn't say "Ultimecia = Rinoa is not hinted in the game OMG!!!!111etc."

I said that one of the MAIN points that allows the Ultimecia= Rinoa Theory to be believable, is that Sorceresses are able to live for VERY long periods of time. This is an assumption pulled out from nowhere.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 6:19:38 AM | Message DetailAlso:

You have to use the evidence to come up with your own conclusion.

So far, all evidence for Ultimecia being Rinoa has been disproved, or has been pure assumptions.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: mathfreq | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:16:09 AM | Message DetailAll I ever hear is "ITS NEVER HINTED IN THE GAME" or "ITS NEVER SAID IN THE GAME". Thats the whole POINT of FF8. They don't make it absolutely clear. You have to use the evidence to come up with your own conclusion. So if people wanna believe this theory then stop bringing up your lack of proof when its up to the person to decide.

All right, then, I'm going to take your advice.

Omg! Omg! Omg! I just came up with a new theory!!! Seifer and Squall are the same person!!! Look, it's so obvious! They both have scars across their faces, they're both knights to sorceresses, they both use gunblades, their names both start with S, I mean, it's completely clear that the game is hinting at this the entire time, they just didn't come right out and say it because they wanted the player to arrive at this conclusion for themselves. Omg! This brings a whole new twist to the plot! The reason Rinoa falls in love with Squall is because she was already in love with Seifer, and they're REALLY THE

SAME PERSON! And Seifer was Edea's knight, and Squall was Rinoa's knight, but they're both using Ultimecia's powers, so it's the same person being the knight to Ultimecia!!!---mathfreqSelf proclaimed defender of the downtrodden and marker of flamers.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:29:13 AM | Message DetailOMG Mathreq, why didn't I see this before??? it's so obvious!!!!!!!!!111oneoneeleven11!!!!repeatasnecessary.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:31:50 AM | Message Detail^I like it! Why can't you see the resemblance?^---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:35:45 AM | Message DetailI see a slight resemblance, but NO PROOF, or NO HINTING that it might be true.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:41:37 AM | Message DetailBut naturally, if you or anyone else have some "evidence" or bits of "proof" towards the idea, please, try and collect it all and post it here.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:43:59 AM | Message DetailOk I will. =P (bad hint of humor)---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/18/2003 11:00:28 AM | Message DetailEverybody knows how Squall talks to himself all the time. He probably really lives in an insane asylum somewhere and his whole story is a hallucination. Kind of like the sixth sense except it's: I see Galbanian Soldier people. He was a crack head at birth and since then went mad and constantly screams: "I don't want to be talked about in past tense!" He is currently restrained in a medical facility in Esther where he claims the President of the country is his father. Did I do good? iamnumber1one1onethenumberone---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Banya | Posted: 6/18/2003 2:21:58 PM | Message DetailOmg! Omg! Omg! I just came up with a new theory!!! Seifer and Squall are the same person!!! Look, it's so obvious! They both have scars across their faces, they're both knights to sorceresses, they both use gunblades, their names both start with S, I mean, it's completely clear that the game is hinting at this the entire time, they just didn't come right out and say it because they wanted the player to arrive at this conclusion for themselves.

Omg! This brings a whole new twist to the plot! The reason Rinoa falls in love with Squall is because she was already in love with Seifer, and they're REALLY THE SAME PERSON! And Seifer was Edea's knight, and Squall was Rinoa's knight, but they're both using Ultimecia's powers, so it's the same person being the knight to Ultimecia!!!

Go home.

The Rinoa being Ultimecia theory does have its believable points. The castle being behind the orphanage, the ring Squall gave to Rinoa etc. These are all possibilites that support the theory, thats all I'm saying. People like to believe them.

And if you believe that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia, what DO you believe? Other than that. ---"Which do you think is more important? Women? Or Daccat's Treasure. Besides, with Daccat's Treasure, we'll be able to get more women." - GilderFrom: Druff | Posted: 6/18/2003 2:50:34 PM | Message DetailNo, Ultimecia calling Greiver a GF IS a mistranslation. There have been countless people proving this, providing scripts etc. etc. etc.

So I should just ignore the dialog text that pops up in my Japanese version of the game when Ultimecia summons Griever during the final battle and refers to him as a "GF". That makes so much sense. Thank you.

---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 3:40:06 PM | Message DetailThe Rinoa being Ultimecia theory does have its believable points. The castle being behind the orphanage

Yes, the castle is behind the Orphanage where they were supposed to meet etc., and this point is one point that can be used as evidence towards the Theory, although one thing like this is far from enough.

the ring Squall gave to Rinoa

Squall gives Rinoa a ring, as a sign of love, friendship, trust, that they will be together etc. ALl these things are quite obvious in the, and FAR more believable than your point involving GFs etc.

etc.

Please do elaborate.

These are all possibilites that support the theory, thats all I'm saying. People like to believe them.

People may like to belive them yes, but that does not change the fact that there is hardly any valid evidence, and the evidence that does exist is just tiny things.

And if you believe that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia, what DO you believe? Other than that

I belive what the game tells me. That Ultimecia is just some weird sorceress that appears in the future(like in FFIX).

So I should just ignore the dialog text that pops up in my Japanese version of the game when Ultimecia summons Griever during the final battle and refers to him as a "GF". That makes so much sense. Thank you.

Sorry, but I feel it is far more realistic to believe the dousins that say the opposite, than ONE that says this.

That's just me of course.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 3:41:52 PM | Message DetailYet again, I ask if some of the people FOR Rinoa = Ultimecia, would be so kind as if to post ALL hints, lines, bits of evidence, ANYTHING that supports the theory here, in nice, numerical order.

---"Everything I say is a lie"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 4 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Druff | Posted: 6/18/2003 3:54:43 PM | Message DetailSorry, but I feel it is far more realistic to believe the dousins that say the opposite, than ONE that says this.

That's just me of course.

Do you know who those "dousins" of people were? Liars. People who've never played the Japanese version. People who think they can say whatever they want about the Japanese version to make their ridiculous ideas and theories look like they hold water, because they think no one will know any better. Well, I do know better. Believe what you want, but I'm telling you you're believing a lie.

This is one of the rare occasions when I actually wish Olivier Hauge were here.

---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: dogbert | Posted: 6/18/2003 4:27:45 PM | Message Detailwhen i played i never really got the impression that they were the same person. when


people play the game, they can read into things differently than others. its a different experience for everyone. for that reason, i think that its cool that people come up with their own ideas about the game. it makes it more enjoyable for them.

personally, i would rather believe that rinoa is not ultimeca...

*SPOILERS*

in the last fight where she says "i am ultimeca" and shes got that light coming out of her face... that kinda made it hard for me to think anything other than they are different people.

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 4:42:20 PM | Message DetailHmm, Druff, I am starting to feel convinced by you. Is there no way for you to prove it, or must I take your word?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Druff | Posted: 6/18/2003 4:52:26 PM | Message DetailUnforunately I don't have any way to prove it, at least not over the internet. I wish I could take screen shots, because I still have all of my saves, including right before the final battle in the Japanese version. If you're in the Los Angeles area, you can come over and see it for yourself! Also, Square (via their Digicube subsidiary) prints these books called Memorial Albums for most of their games. They contain the entire script and screenshots to go with it. The FFVIII Memoral Album contains the proof. If you have any Japanese bookstores near you, they'd probably carry it and you could check it out there in the store. I know Asahiya Books carries it, that's where I got mine.

Anyway, I don't blame you if you don't believe me. That's the problem with the internet, anyone can say whatever they want and insist it's true.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/18/2003 5:00:17 PM | Message DetailI'm afraid I live in Norway, so getting to Los Angeles, let alone getting japanese FF stuff is pretty much impossible.

Although you do seem like a believable bloke.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 6/18/2003 5:25:59 PM | Message DetailThe Ulty=Rino theory:http://squallsangel83.freeservers.com/about.html-Most of his "facts" can be countered, though...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/18/2003 6:13:08 PM | Message DetailI didn't make this topic to incite flame wars amongst users. You guys seem to take things a little too seriously.

I'll hang around until that user comes in out of curiosity. I want him to repost what he originally stated.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/18/2003 6:27:29 PM | Message DetailHmm . . . just read through that link. I'd ask that when you read this, not focus on the sections where he sounds biased, just his evidence. This is it:

Da Proof1.) Sorceresses may not age. I mean, think about it. Cid could've been Edea's age when Edea recieved her powers. Then he aged and she didn't. That would be why Edea looks so much younger than Cid. Also, it never talks about a sorceress dying, though it does talk of Adel from 'the far past'. If this is true, Rinoa could live on and become Ultimecia.

2.) Why would Rinoa try to kill Squall? Maybe- just maybe- since she wouldn't age, and Squall would, she would be unable to take the pain. Listen to what she says after you beat her: "Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter......how hard you hold onIt escapes you..." This totally supports what I just said earlier!

3.) Remember at the field near the orphanage, when Rinoa said something along the lines of "If I can't control myself...you can kill me , Squall. But only you...I guess it's okay if it's you..." Well, she became Ultimecia and could no longer control her powers. So she goes back into time to let Squall kill her...just like she promised.

4.) Ultimecia has her castle RIGHT next to the field where the promise from the intro was made. Why there? Could be for design purposes. Or, it could be because she is waiting for Squall.

5.) Remember how Rinoa borrows Squall's ring? Well, she never gives back the origional. We know this when she says she put on HIS ring in her dream which she described at the field. Now, if you can get Doomtrain from Soloman's Ring, why couldn't you get Griever from Squall's Ring? Plus...how else would Ultimecia have the Griever GF?

6.) A lot of emphasis is put on Rinoa's angel motif. Like, for example, the wings on her parka and her limit break. Rinoa's wings are white and Ultimecia's are black. White symbolizes good, and black symbolizes evil. It could be a natural progression. There's evidence of this in scenes from the ending. It appears Rinoa's wings are changing during one of the FMVs. It appears her wings are changing colors.

7.) There are only 3 FMV shots of Ultimecia in the game, all very fast at the end. Plus, all of the shots are mixed in so that they all cut into FMVs of Rinoa. One appears right before Rinoa's wings appear to change color. Just after this Squall falls and yells out. Maybe Squall has seen the prophecy of Rinoa turning into Ultimecia? He CAN see the future after all...it is time compression...

8.) If you compare the pictures, Ultimecia and Rinoa have VERY similiar eyes, mouths, noses, face shapes, and hair parting points. Did you notice?

This is pretty much what I remembered. Though, where was it in the game that Rinoa said Squall could kill her if she became out of control? Was it during or after the Space sequence?

The thing about Edea's age is how I felt. She doesn't look a day older since that ending clip where we saw her take on Ultimecia's power. Compare that to the ending movie, she hasn't aged.

I don't remember seeing Ultimecia being interlaced with Rinoa during the ending movie. I'll have to watch it again and pay closer attention.

One last thing: if anyone remembers, who was Solomon? Was he Adel's lover?---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: Jierdan Firkraag | Posted: 6/18/2003 6:42:15 PM | Message DetailThe part where Rinoa said Squall could kill her, IIRC, was during the promise scene.---Newbie - Hello, I have some questions...n00b - hayo!! wUR ar deh codz for diz gamz!?"From: Geasha | Posted: 6/18/2003 7:02:03 PM | Message DetailThe 3 FMV shots of Ulty last less than 1/10 second each, barely noticeable. It's during the trippy scene where many pictures are messed up and twisted. Since i have a way of looking FMV's picture by picture i could see them, otherwise it goes so fast that you miss them.If you wanna see them go to:www.mangaknights.com/Ultimecia/gallery/fmv01.jpg--------------------------------------/fmv02.jpg--------------------------------------/fmv03.jpg-And if Squall realized that Rinoa will turn to Ulty in the future, and that he just killed her, why would he smiles during the ending, as if nothing's gonna happens?-Also we don't know how old were Cid and Edea when they got married, maybe he was already older than her, it's pretty common that the guy is older than the lady in any couples.Cid looks as he looks because it's like that that we imagine a school director looks

like,and Edea is young(but not very young) and beautiful to add to her charisma,and to surprise us when we learn they are married...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: YO456 | Posted: 6/18/2003 9:58:03 PM | Message Detail"Now, if you can get Doomtrain from Soloman's Ring"hey, thats a SPOILER!!! i have completed the game, but still need doomtrain and tombery kings GFs.how do i have to get doomtrain? also, i dont remember the scene with rinoa´s wings, when is it?, and finally, you have some good points, but many are countered, as for example, that Griever inst a GF (at least for what i understood)From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/18/2003 10:55:48 PM | Message DetailYO456, for a person who beat the game you seem to have missed a bit.

Rinoa takes on angel wings during some of her limit breaks.

Griever IS a GF as it says during the final battle with Ultimecia. As many owners of the japanese version on GameFAQs say, it is the same. Griever is a GF.

And unless you failed to notice, the topic title has SPOILERS in nice big caps. Most of what everyone on here is saying are spoilers.---Dive to the Heart: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1264076From: Zeroblitzer | Posted: 6/19/2003 12:31:43 AM | Message DetailI had a theory about Ultimecia similiar to this. My theory was that Ultimecia was Squall & Rinoa's child.

I presumed what happened is that Ultimecia probably lost her parents at a young age, twisting her to evil.

Or maybe she hated her life as it was, and tried to kill Squall and/or Rinoa to prevent her own birth. However, Ultimecia still lived due to Time Compression.

Then again, it's what you want to believe. Just because someone says something else, you don't necessarily need to agree or disagree.

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 5:16:15 AM | Message DetailDa Proof1.) Sorceresses may not age. I mean, think about it. Cid could've been Edea's age when Edea recieved her powers. Then he aged and she didn't. That would be why Edea looks so much younger than Cid. Also, it never talks about a sorceress dying, though it does talk of Adel from 'the far past'. If this is true, Rinoa could live on and become Ultimecia.

Cid could have been her age, but then again, couldn't he just be older when he married her. It never talks about a Sorceress dying? What happens yo Ultimecia in the

end then? What does Edea say about Sorceresses having to give away their powers to die in peace? Adel does not necessarily have to have lived many years, but the freezing down in the Space Station stopped her from aging. Personally, this makes a lot more sense.

2.) Why would Rinoa try to kill Squall? Maybe- just maybe- since she wouldn't age, and Squall would, she would be unable to take the pain. Listen to what she says after you beat her:"Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter......how hard you hold onIt escapes you..."This totally supports what I just said earlier!

Why would Rinoa try and kill Squall? So that he wouldn't age beyond here? Do you really think she would kill Squall herself to stop him from dying? If she is repeating this through a Time Loop she would need to be defeated by Squall in order to give Edea her powers etc., if she killed Squall, she would most likely never be defeated and she would win the war, leaving Squall dead forever, killed by her own hands.

For the lines, yes, this could be Rinoa talking about her trying to hold on to Squall etc., but it could also be something that happened to her in her childhood(this is in my opinion the strongest point, because there is no way to prove that it means something else).

3.) Remember at the field near the orphanage, when Rinoa said something along the lines of "If I can't control myself...you can kill me , Squall. But only you...I guess it's okay if it's you..." Well, she became Ultimecia and could no longer control her powers. So she goes back into time to let Squall kill her...just like she promised.

Pure guessing. Not valid.

4.) Ultimecia has her castle RIGHT next to the field where the promise from the intro was made. Why there? Could be for design purposes. Or, it could be because she is waiting for Squall.

Another good point made. But then again, it's really only one of the chains that is at the Orphanage, the Castle may be linger back. Note this is just assumptions by me.

5.) Remember how Rinoa borrows Squall's ring? Well, she never gives back the origional. We know this when she says she put on HIS ring in her dream which she described at the field. Now, if you can get Doomtrain from Soloman's Ring, why couldn't you get Griever from Squall's Ring? Plus...how else would Ultimecia have the Griever GF?

This is all about the translation. All the times I've been here it has been said that in the japanese version Ultimecia draws the strongest creature from Squalls mind. But now, Druff here has been pretty convincing.

Say Druff, could you try and type up here exactly what she says about this? That would be great.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 5:16:44 AM | Message Detail6.) A lot of emphasis is put on Rinoa's angel motif. Like, for example, the wings on her parka and her limit break. Rinoa's wings are white and Ultimecia's are black. White symbolizes good, and black symbolizes evil. It could be a natural progression. There's evidence of this in scenes from the ending. It appears Rinoa's wings are changing during one of the FMVs. It appears her wings are changing colors.

It could be a progression, or it could simply show how Ultimecia and Rinoa are quite opposite(Rinoa good, Ulty evil). Seeing as Rinoa worroes about becoming evil, this could show that she is not.

About the wings changing colour, if we could have links showing detialed that would be good. Also, in Squalls dream we see Rinoa dying in Space etc. lots of things that don't happen. Rinoa changing wings could simply be another illusion of Time COmpression.

7.) There are only 3 FMV shots of Ultimecia in the game, all very fast at the end. Plus, all of the shots are mixed in so that they all cut into FMVs of Rinoa. One appears right before Rinoa's wings appear to change color. Just after this Squall falls and yells out. Maybe Squall has seen the prophecy of Rinoa turning into Ultimecia? He CAN see the future after all...it is time compression...

Firstly, when did Squall ever become capable of seeing the future???

Secondly, Squall sees Rinoas Austronaut suit bursting, but this does not happen at any time. Most likely just an illusion.

8.) If you compare the pictures, Ultimecia and Rinoa have VERY similiar eyes, mouths, noses, face shapes, and hair parting points. Did you notice?

Thus we could return to the Squall=Seifer. Just because two people look slightly alike, does not mean that they are the same person!

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/19/2003 8:33:42 AM | Message DetailThere is one major problem with the whole sorceress lives forever idea going around. Adel, when she captured Ellone, it was mentioned that Adel was looking for a successor (even though she never said that herself). Why would Adel look for a successor if she lived forever until she would be defeated? It is obvious that Adel was

at the peak of her power and I doubt that she was afraid of an uprising (which is exactly what happened).---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: mathfreq | Posted: 6/19/2003 10:11:42 AM | Message DetailGo home.Can't make me.

The Rinoa being Ultimecia theory does have its believable points. The castle being behind the orphanage, the ring Squall gave to Rinoa etc. These are all possibilites that support the theory, thats all I'm saying. People like to believe them.I happen to think that there's absolutely no support for the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory, and that all the "evidence" for this is completely baseless. If you believe that there's no support for the Squall = Seifer theory, then that's fine with me - that puts the two of us in the same situation.

And if you believe that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia, what DO you believe? Other than that. Rinoa is an innocent girl fighting for the liberation of her hometown who gets swept up in the struggle to save the entire world. Ultimecia is an evil sorceress from the future whose goal is to destroy said world. Completely unrelated.---mathfreqSelf proclaimed defender of the downtrodden and marker of flamers.From: Some0ne | Posted: 6/19/2003 11:18:33 AM | Message DetailI dont believe that Ulty and Rinoa are the same, but what do you think Ulty would have told your party in the end?Her last sentence was And ---I told you a million times not to exaggerate!!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 11:38:19 AM | Message DetailThe "And" was probably an example of "Time, it will not wait".

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: jume2 | Posted: 6/19/2003 2:56:13 PM | Message Detail"Behind The Mastermind"

http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2003/q2/050503dx.htmlJump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 5 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Geasha | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:20:17 PM | Message DetailGood point, THE INSOMNIA. If Adel was looking for a successor, then she is not immortal...---


"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:35:26 PM | Message DetailJume: We don't need that site. Besides, all it says is assumptions and stuff that has already been negated here.

And excellent work THE INSOMNIA, for giving an ingame fact which goes agains Sorcerers immortality.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Druff | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:47:59 PM | Message DetailThis is all about the translation. All the times I've been here it has been said that in the japanese version Ultimecia draws the strongest creature from Squalls mind.

Say Druff, could you try and type up here exactly what she says about this? That would be great.

I can't type in Japanese, and the English version is already a very accurate translation of the original Japanese. But what I can tell you is this: In the Japanese version of the game, both "SeeD" and "G.F." are always spelled out in English. In the scene when Ultimecia first summons Griever, you will see there amongst all of the hiragana and kanji the letters "G.F." So even if you aren't fluent in Japanese, you can still see that she refers to Griever (or "Guriba") as a G.F. in the Japanese version.

---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: Becko | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:49:05 PM | Message Detailmay this article have some answers:

http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2003/q2/050503dx.htmlFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:52:20 PM | Message DetailNo it may not.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 3:54:36 PM | Message DetailOh, and Druff:

You strike me as a respectable, believable fellow, but I just can't believe you without at least one other person saying the same.I'm sure you understand.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Bizkit047 | Posted: 6/19/2003 4:00:34 PM | Message DetailI've heard from a few people that it was translation error, but since I can't read

Japanese, I have no proof.From: Druff | Posted: 6/19/2003 4:01:04 PM | Message DetailAs I said, I don't blame you. No worries.---CAUTION: I AM BOOZERBanzai! Banzai!From: Anagram | Posted: 6/19/2003 5:34:14 PM | Message DetailPersonally, I don't beleive Ultimecia is Rinoa. She looks closer to Edea than Rinoa, but few people say Ult = Edea. I can't say anything about mis-translations, since I'm taking Spanish instead of Japanese (or French). She's just a random sorceress. And besides, in the ending, Edea says that she's already a sorceress, and take Ult's powers so no unlucky kid has to. Which means:a) Edea got her original powers from yet another nameless sorceressb) France sucksc) Ultimecia gave Edea all her powersd) France suckse) a, b, and d are true

Obviously, the answer is e. Which includes A. Now, perhaps Rinoa gave her powers off to another random sorceress, who, after a while, gave it to Ult, but just as likely Ult got her powers from another line of sorceresses, which COULD happen. Hell, perhaps after the ending, Selphie became a sorceress and started yet another line. And by the way, sorceresses DO die like ordinary people, Adel was looking for a successor, and as for Edea/Cid..... well. You know.---"Cloud's hair is clearly the most dangerous blade in the game, but not once does he think to simply headbutt the enemy"-Shadow666From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 5:50:46 PM | Message DetailA) would be correct there.

Also, please stop being so ignorant and foolish towards the French.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/19/2003 6:07:37 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut, you're getting a little too confrontational about this.

And if everything you say is a lie, then why should we listen to you?---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/19/2003 6:13:58 PM | Message DetailAnd I think believing Ultimecia and Rinoa are the same is easier than Squall and Seifer are the same.

There's a few hundered year time gap between Rinoa and Ultimecia. Squall and Seifer were born in the same generation.

I just know Sir Bahamut is going to argue this with me.

---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/19/2003 6:53:53 PM | Message DetailHehe, no I won't argue there.Sorry for getting worked up, but I like discussing this.

Oh, and my signature is a paradox:

If everything I say is a lie then that must also be a lie, meaning everything I say is the truth, nut I just said the opposite, meaning I lied etc. etc. etc.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Anagram | Posted: 6/19/2003 8:52:27 PM | Message DetailWith the right kind of logic you can prove anything:Cloud is really Quistis:1. Both have blound hair2. Both have wierd hairstyles3. Both have stringy arms4. Both have weapons that couldn't really be used for effectively.5. Both can use blue magicSee? Cloud is really Quistis!---"Cloud's hair is clearly the most dangerous blade in the game, but not once does he think to simply headbutt the enemy"-Shadow666From: Anagram | Posted: 6/19/2003 9:12:57 PM | Message DetailAlso, at one point Cloud dresses up as a woman.---"Cloud's hair is clearly the most dangerous blade in the game, but not once does he think to simply headbutt the enemy"-Shadow666From: Zeroblitzer | Posted: 6/20/2003 1:08:51 AM | Message DetailWhat does everyone think of my theory?From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 6/20/2003 2:29:55 AM | Message DetailWhat does everyone think of my theory?

The only thing I don't like about it is that that would mean Rinoa would have passed her powers on to her daugter, and the powers of a sorceress don't really seem to be something you would wish on a family member.

Also, a lot of people have talked about how Adel wanted a successor, so it meant she was mortal. I don't think sorceress's live forever, but for hundreds of years probably. Unless I'm mistaken they never really say how long sorceress's lives are.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/20/2003 5:09:21 AM | Message DetailNo, that's correct. It is never stated how long a sorceress can live/usually lives.

And yeah, one wouldn't think Rinoa would want to make her children Sorcerers/Sorceresses after what she's been through.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: YO456 | Posted: 6/20/2003 4:51:05 PM | Message Detailoh,there is a point.everybody says she wouldnt attacked Squall, but if she was junctioned to Griever she may have lose her memorybut i still believe griever inst a gfFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/20/2003 5:52:39 PM | Message DetailThat is a VERY good point! If Ultimecia actually WAS Rinoa, one wouldn't need to bring in this nonsense of trying to keepwith Squall etc., one could say that she lost her memory from Griever!

Not that I believe this but anyway.


20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/23/2003 12:06:54 PM | Message DetailI have something to say about this time paradox thing. Now, if we assume that there is only one timeline, it can be debated that the game is a paradox and that Ultimica killing Rinoa in the final battle would create an impossible, infinite time loop. With Rinoa dead Ultimica would never come to be, and therefore would never be able to kill Rinoa, meaning that Rinoa would remain alive, as would Ultimica, etc, etc. That is because this is talked about in terms of a 4th dimension with only 1 timeline. If Rinoa is dead in the past Ultimica doesn't exist in the future. But if it were said that FFVIII’s 4th dimension actually consisted of two timelines, the Ultimica = Rinoa theory would be given an entire new depth and all possibilities of time paradox would be eliminated. Let me try to explain…

There is one timeline to begin with. Everything involving time is perfectly normal until Rinoa is lost in space. This is where the single timeline branches, creating two timelines, like a Y. The two separate branches are caused by two possibilities, one possibility occurring at the start of the left branch and the other occurring at the start of the right. The timeline that we see for the most part in the game is the Y’s stem and then its left branch. The left branch starts when Rinoa is rescued by Squall, one possibility, and continues on normally as seen in the game. The right branch, however, starts when Squall does not rescue Rinoa, the second possibility. Her helmet breaks and she’s left adrift in space as seen in the final FMV. For the most part, the right branch is filled with unknown events, but it will be assumed for the point of this theory that as the right branch progresses Rinoa becomes evil and turns into Ultimica. So we have two timelines, one in which Rinoa exists and one in which Ultimica


exists, but both of which have the same past.

If this were true, we would have in one branch a normal Rinoa, saved by Squall and in love with him. In the other branch Ultimica would exist, abandoned by Squall in her past. That she was abandoned by Squall would create a prime motive for wanting to kill him. Now we get to the paradoxical part.

Ultimica uses time travel to go back in time in an attempt to compress it. Time compression forces the two branches to intersect and become one again, so time now looks like this –o–. She can kill Squall and Rinoa without preventing her own creation because of the existence of the two branches in the past. Because Ultimica would be killing the Rinoa that exists after the split in the timeline, she would not be cutting off the method of her own creation. The Rinoa needed for the timeline’s split would still exist in the past, ensuring the creation of Ultimica and future Rinoa.

Of course, this brings up the point of Rinoa having to be immortal in order to survive in space with a broken spacesuit and hence create Ultimica in one branch of the timeline. Adel’s successor is a point going against the theory of immortal Sorceresses. Unless Adel was searching for a successor so that she could easily pass on her powers and hence die in peace when and if the day came that she was injured to a point of no return in battle. It could be possible for immortals to be wounded, and wounded so greatly that they want themselves to die. That could be said of Ultimica. She might have been able to live on but was so wrecked by Squall and Co. in the final battle that she passed on her powers so that she could die. Adel could have been looking for a successor so that, should she be wounded badly enough, she could pass on her powers and die.

Of course, this is all just assumption and guesswork, that’s why it’s a theory. But anyway, there you are. And I hope that all made sense. =/From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:09:26 PM | Message DetailYes that does make sense, but of course, Rinoa floating around in space with no oksygen, and no means whatsoever of getting back to Earth, I think we can rule that out.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:11:27 PM | Message DetailActually, Rinoa touches a button on the suit that has backup oxygen, it is mentioned somewhere in the space station that there is a backup oxygen reserves in the suit. If you watch her closely in the FMV, she touches a button that activates that backup reserves.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:15:41 PM | Message DetailAlso there is only one Squall in time compression. They are all the same person, just at different points of his life. Now if this were compression of all possible happenings in the universe then there would be multiple Squalls each being different but this is not the case.---

I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:16:19 PM | Message DetailThat still doesn't affect anything. Because she is floating away from earth, and the oksygenlimit is not unlimited, so she would still never survuve, even if she actually was immortal, she would be floating far away from earth.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:18:04 PM | Message DetailWell, of course they are really the same, but if they can exist at the same time then they can be considered different people, or different Squalls.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:18:13 PM | Message DetailNot really, Sir B. Because it is never really stated in the game whether Sorceresses are or are not immortal, either way goes. It's dependant on opinion. They could very well be immortal. Edea's comment at the end and the fact that she looks as if she's never aged a day in 15 or so years are more than enough to convince me that Sorceresses are immortal. In my mind, some random thing about Adel looking for a successor isn't enough to cancel out the other two points.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:18:52 PM | Message DetailShe would survive short-term if she had oxygen and Squall saves her and gets her to the Ragnarok, she wasn't there for days or weeks, probably for only ten or fifteen minutes.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:19:34 PM | Message DetailEven if she is immortal, she is floating away from earth, and will float FAR away from earth, and might end up in a Black Hole or something.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:22:10 PM | Message DetailShe would survive short-term if she had oxygen and Squall saves her and gets her to the Ragnarok, she wasn't there for days or weeks, probably for only ten or fifteen minutes.

We are talking about a timeline where Squall does NOT save her, and Rinoa ends up drifting away in space.

Also, Edea looking the same does not necessarily mean she is immortal. ---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:22:58 PM | Message Detail

But you are forgetting she could be simply caught in an orbit around the Earth, and even if she were going away from the Earth that doesn't mean anything, you should know that if a Black Hole were that close to the sun our sun would cease to exist and would be swallowed by the intense gravity of the Black Hole.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:23:52 PM | Message DetailTriple post, sorry:

We cannot bring Sorceresses being immortal into the Ultimecia=Rinoa argumen,t as there is no real proff on either side.

Also, what sentence does Edea say that convinces you?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:26:21 PM | Message DetailNo such timeline would exist unless there would be a different universe. One theory on the universe states that when a decision is made, the universe splits in two. But there is one problem, it is only a theory. In case you are thinking of when Ellone sends Squall to Rinoa, Ellone actually sends Squall to "the nearest past" not the future.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:26:29 PM | Message DetailBut you are forgetting she could be simply caught in an orbit around the Earth, and even if she were going away from the Earth that doesn't mean anything, you should know that if a Black Hole were that close to the sun our sun would cease to exist and would be swallowed by the intense gravity of the Black Hole.

She could be caught in orbit, but she could also drift far away.

And the Black Hole was just a stupid example, silly, of course I know we would not be her blablabla, I read Hawkings etc. I meant that after drifting along for hundreds of years she might fall into one, meaning she would never be able to return to Earth.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:26:54 PM | Message DetailTrue, they could've just been lazy and used the same character model.

And about her floating away in space, I don't think she'd float into a black hole. There aren't too many of those around, and even if she had millions of years of free time to float to one, she probably wouldn't reach it. If she is immortal, however, that would mean she doesn't die from a lack of oxygen. She might be put through extreme torture until she manages to float and land on some distant planet or something, but that only gives her more of a reason to go after Squall.---

Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:30:03 PM | Message DetailThe Black Hole was just a vague example, gosh. If you want something more probably you can say she came to close to the Sun.

Also, we have all gone oon to stupid assumtions so lets stop discussing wether or not she would land on a planet and then somewhow get back etc.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:31:31 PM | Message DetailYou guys can post really fast! My computer is too slow for this kind of stuff.

What sentence convinced me? The "die in peace" one, said just before Edea accepts Ultimica's powers. Even that could be debated, the point of emphasis being on either "die" or "in peace" at question. But it's enough to convince me personally. ---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:35:40 PM | Message DetailOk, just wondering.

Hmm, do you think I should make anew topic on this, so we could start on a fresh beginning?

Then we'll do it properly, having the people for Ultimecia = Rinoa gather up all points and then we'll debate like mad. It'll be fun.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/23/2003 1:45:32 PM | Message DetailI don't care, but fun isn't exactly the way I would see it. It would probably end up in a swirl of endlessness and repetition.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/23/2003 2:04:06 PM | Message DetailBut anyway:

So far on this topic, there are these points that could possibly support Rinoa = Ultimecia:

*The location of Ultimecias Castle

*The FMV that plays during Time Compression that shows Rinoas wings turning black, and Ultimecias and Rinoas faces flashing over eachother.

Supporting bit:

*The fact that Sorceresses may be immortal. Edea saying :"A sorceress has to give away her powers in order to die in peace" can be read that a Sorceress is immortal,

but can also be read the other way.

Point 1 is an assumption, and point 2 might just as well be Time Compression screwing things up.Point 3 is a matter of opinion.

So, unless anyone has anything else to add, I think we can call the Ultimecia=Rinoa theory to be pretty much dead.


20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 8 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/23/2003 5:39:49 PM | Message DetailHats off to Sir Bahamut for the topic recap.

It seems we are now at an impass. I urge anyone who may have new evidence/opinions/views to support either side to join in.

What's a debate topic without debate?---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: My Mind | Posted: 6/23/2003 7:01:48 PM | Message DetailUmm...Hi!

If you go into the Ragnarok on disk 4 and talk to Rinoa, she says:

"Even if Ultimecia is defeated,it won't change the fact thatshe was born.

My powers will be carried on acrossgenerations and eventually reach Ultimecia.

What does it mean to inherit Ultimecia's power?"

This seems to indicate that Ultimecia and Rinoa are different people because it implies that Rinoa is going to die and her power, along with Ultimecia's, will be carried on till it ultimately reaches Ultimecia. Of course, this is only what Rinoa thinks...From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 6/23/2003 7:11:50 PM | Message DetailOne thing. People have said that if Rinoa dies it would create the paradox. Cant kill self if dead, etc. But think about this. When time is compressed all living things in the past, present, and future died, all except Ultimecia(and the heroes). If the paradox thing is correct, the entire fourth disc of the game would be a (bigger) paradox. If all


past was destroyed(compressed)how could any of the characters ever have been born.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/23/2003 7:17:35 PM | Message DetailMy Mind: At this point, Rinoa wouldn't know if she was Ultimecia. She's just saying what she is thinking, she doesn't know the future.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Koren | Posted: 6/23/2003 7:57:00 PM | Message DetailAnother point i'd like to add and just have clarified:

In Time Compression, there can only be one incarnation of each person, correct? So being that Rinoa is present in the final battle AGAINST Ultimecia, doesn't that mean that she cannot be her?

Because then theoretically if there was more than one, there could be hundreds of Squalls running around, and it would obviously be easier to get these hundreds of Squalls to fight Ulty than the party you fight her with.---If the Flintstones have taught us anything, it's that pelicans can be used to mix cement. From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/24/2003 1:30:38 AM | Message DetailThis seems to indicate that Ultimecia and Rinoa are different people because it implies that Rinoa is going to die and her power, along with Ultimecia's, will be carried on till it ultimately reaches Ultimecia. Of course, this is only what Rinoa thinks...

Yes, but as Sideswipe said, she shouldn't be able to tell the future.

One thing. People have said that if Rinoa dies it would create the paradox. Cant kill self if dead, etc. But think about this. When time is compressed all living things in the past, present, and future died, all except Ultimecia(and the heroes). If the paradox thing is correct, the entire fourth disc of the game would be a (bigger) paradox. If all past was destroyed(compressed)how could any of the characters ever have been born.

Time Compression doesn't make all living things in past present and future dead. It simply mixes past, present and future into one timeline. And seeing that the characters you play with are in the present timeline, nothing really changes to them.

In Time Compression, there can only be one incarnation of each person, correct? So being that Rinoa is present in the final battle AGAINST Ultimecia, doesn't that mean that she cannot be her?

This is debatable, and a very good point. I have one thing to say about this, that can argue against it:

1)Remember that Rinoa travels into the future(which obviously then becomes their

present as I stated above) to kill Ultimecia, and seeing that we see big Squall and little Squall standing together, we can assume that big Ultimecia and little Ultimecia can stand together too.

Besides this, I don't really see any other option than your statement being correct.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: dogbert | Posted: 6/24/2003 5:27:35 PM | Message Detailso, whats the status. has it been disproven yet?From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/24/2003 6:26:14 PM | Message DetailIt has not been disproven yet, nor has it been proven. It's a topic of seemingly endless debate that will never die until Square releases a statement regarding it, which they won't.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/25/2003 6:08:09 AM | Message DetailIt has not been completely disproven, and can never be completely disproven, but so far, there are no good arguments for this that haven't been disproven.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 6/25/2003 3:41:04 PM | Message DetailIt's not that the good arguments have been disproven. You just interpret them differently than others. It may be disproven to you, but to people who believe it, those arguments still make sense.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/25/2003 3:53:46 PM | Message DetailYes, I know, my previous statement was ignorant and foolish, but quite frnakly, what arguments are there really?

I'll list the ones I remember:

*Griever is summoned through Squalls ring which Rinoa has.

-Translation Error

*Since Sorceresses live forever, Squall died and Rinoa lived, driving her to become mad, and wanting to be with Squall forever she creates a loop etc.

-This entire Immortal Sorceress thing is based off one line, which can be intepreted both ways, so this is a valig argument.

*Location of Ultimecias Castle

-Naturally, if you already belive the Theory, this makes sense, but in reality, this is

just a big fat assumption.

*The FMV during Squalls "dream"(or whatever it is).

-If this is correct, than Squall would be able to see the future. Also, you see Rinoas space suit bursting during this very same FMV, but that isn't true, so everything else in here should not be take to be true.

I can't remember any else.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/25/2003 7:16:03 PM | Message DetailAlso, you see Rinoas space suit bursting during this very same FMV, but that isn't true, so everything else in here should not be take to be true.

Unless the theory on a branched timeline is correct. Then her helmet really would have broken, and during that FMV sequence the horrors of the past would truly have been revealed to Squall. Thus he would have forced himself from Rinoa, become lost in a swirl of misery at the thought of how he created Ultimica, and wound up alone in a plane of nothing. That is, until Rinoa came to look for him, and he realized that he did love her, and that being a depressed introvert wasn't helping matters. And then they burst forth from the horrors of their lives in a whirl of flower petals!

If you couldn't tell, I'm still for Rinoa = Ultimica. It's more dramatic that way.---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: MarioKart8 | Posted: 6/26/2003 4:05:57 AM | Message DetailNah, I don't think Rinoa is Ultimecia. She takes control of Rinoa during disc 3, but other than that, I don't think the two are connected in any other way. I view the sorceress thing like this however. Adel is the sorceress of the past, Edea (later Rinoa) is the sorceress of the present, and Ultimecia is the sorceress of the future. Rinoa, unknowingly, accepted Edea's powers at the end of disc 2, which prompted Ultimecia to take control over her. I believe Ultimecia just uses whoever holds the power of the sorceress to accomplish her tasks.

---"You are not good enough to beat me." Helena (DOA3)"It's a present. Take it or leave it." Ayane (DOAXBV)From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/26/2003 5:37:48 AM | Message DetailYes, the branched timeline allows it.

And I haven't really chosen a side, because actually, I think it would be great if Rinoa was Ultimecia, because the plot insatnly becomes more interesting, but then again, there is so little backing it up, and some points that go directly against it.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 9:58:02 PM | Message Detail

First off, it is NOT a DAMNED translation error you ignorant people.

Sorry 'bout that.

Assuming that Ultimecia is protected from the affects of time (as hinted since she can create Time Compression) then taking control of her distant past self wouldn't be any big deal.Her junctioning to Griever may (I repeat, MAY) have erased a good part of her memory which we all learn later on in the game. She wouldn't remember that she was once Rinoa, and would just see her as another vessel to possess.

One more point/observation/thought I would like to bring up.This story takes place in a certain time. Ultimecia chose that time. Why would she do that? What happened then that was of any importance?

Rinoa met Squall.

*sits back to let others think on that*---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:01:21 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:03:18 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:10:22 PM | Message DetailThat post was up for 2 seconds, no way you read it that fast.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:11:25 PM | Message DetailImpressive, no?---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:12:23 PM | Message DetailIf you ask me, you're holding me to something I didn't mean to say.---I don't sleep, I pass out...Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:13:16 PM | Message DetailWhat, you want me to delete the counter post?---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:14:00 PM | Message DetailI would thank you if you did.---


I don't sleep, I pass out...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:15:16 PM | Message DetailHappy?

I felt charitable.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:15:37 PM | Message DetailDamn, I have Cable on this computer and I still can't keep up! Well, Thanks! =)---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:16:25 PM | Message DetailWhat do you mean, can't keep up?---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:23:43 PM | Message Detail??? So we are just going to sit around and talk about how fast computers are, or are we on with the theory. =P---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/26/2003 10:27:59 PM | Message DetailYes, you are RIGHT!

BACK TO THE DEBATE!!!---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: rapap | Posted: 6/27/2003 1:46:20 AM | Message DetailI only have one problem with the branching timeline example. Riona is not rescued by Squall so she becomes Ultimecia? I don't recall anywhere saying that even a sorceress could survive subzero temperatures, extreme decompression and no air in space. If they could, why did Ultimecia (controlling Riona) bother with the space suit in the first place?

As for Ultimecia 'choosing' to intervene during the time when Riona and Squall met, that is explained as the limitation of the Junction Ellone machine. To achieve Time Compression (that is her stated goal mentioned several times- nothing about killing Squall or Riona) she needs to go even further back in the past (to at least when Adel is young). Ellone is the only means of doing that.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/27/2003 2:35:43 AM | Message DetailWhat the hell, read posts before YOU do! That's twice now!

I never said anything about killing Rinoa and Squall, I stated that they had met during the time-frame Ultimecia was screwing with.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231

From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 2:36:49 AM | Message DetailFirst off, it is NOT a DAMNED translation error you ignorant people.

So I am ignorant, because I choose to believe the words of dousins other the word of one? It is simple logic that since only ONE person says Ultimecia says GF, and about a dousin other that says she DOES NOT say GF, the latter is more believable. Please stop and think a few seconds before you call anyone ignorant, or at least get proof.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 2:38:45 AM | Message DetailAnd rapap is correct, she went to that time for ELLONE, nothing else.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: rapap | Posted: 6/27/2003 3:00:43 AM | Message DetailSideswipeZulu:

Take a pill, count to ten, I don't care, but calm down. I was still addressing the branched timeline explanation and it got mixed in with replying to the coincidence you made such a big deal about. I can't directly quote from my device so it makes replying to specific posts dicey.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Geasha | Posted: 6/27/2003 6:57:59 AM | Message DetailAbout the Rinoa died in space thing:-If Squall was not here to rescue her,then she wouldn't even be in space for one. Why does Rinoa comes to the space station?Because Squall wants her to meet Ellone so she can help her.If Squall is not here,then Rinoa has no reason in the 1st place to come here too.So she doesn't die in space.-If you begin to add several more time paradox to the one already existing, the game becomes messy.I think you see too much into this. As i already said, i made some big research on that theory a while ago, and this theory can be proven false.-About the Ulty's pics in the ending:They are not alterned with Rino's pics.They appear when there is no one on screen. Then Rino's face is alterned many times with EDEA's face,and time to time a pic of Seifer appears.-About the wings turning to black: False again. There are black splashes on the screen for something like 1 second,not noticeable if you see the ending on real speed, and have not a the shape of a wing.It's during the trippy scene where many pics and colors are messed up and twisted, so it's just black splashes. There is one frame where Rino seems to have one black wing and one white wing, but again it looks more like splashes than wings. And it last 1/10 seconds. If Square wanted to back up the

Ulti=Rino theory,don't you think they would add more thing than a pic of 1/10 second not noticeable on normal speed?-As i already said (too)many times,there is a reason for Ulti to put her castle here.She defy SeeDs. it's where the SeeDs she hates so much are born, and there that they will die. She wants to end that cycle. Make their grave of their birthplace.-Ulti ad Rino have the same face structure because it was the same person who was taken to play their role in FMV(for Edea too).So it's no big deal.-I think the true theory(unfortunatly) is the most simple. Rino is at the same time a descendant and an ancestor of Ulti,in term of sorceress power,thus creating a time loop,a paradox. It may be the 1st time that RPG fans have found a better story than the creators of the game themselves. The Ulti=Rino theory would have add more depht to this already great game, but unfortunatly, it was not what the creators intended...

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/27/2003 7:07:31 AM | Message DetailSorry everyone, sorry.

Haven't slept in over 24 hours, so I'm a little edgy. On the FRINGE!!!!! Not crazy, but getting there.

Bahamut: You say dozens have said it's an error? Well, dozens have said it isn't, including owners of the Japanese version.

Stalemate in my opinion.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 7:50:35 AM | Message DetailBahamut: You say dozens have said it's an error? Well, dozens have said it isn't, including owners of the Japanese version.

Actually, throughout this entire topic, there has only been ONE person saying Ultimceia says GF, and that is Druff. Since when did 1>Dousins? That's right, it didn't. Hardly a stalemate.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 7:51:54 AM | Message DetailGeasha: Thank you very much for clearing up the remaining arguments for the theory. It is greatly appreciated.

---"Everything I say is a lie"

From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/27/2003 9:54:06 AM | Message DetailIf Squall was not here to rescue her,then she wouldn't even be in space for one. Why does Rinoa comes to the space station?Because Squall wants her to meet Ellone so she can help her.If Squall is not here,then Rinoa has no reason in the 1st place to come here too.So she doesn't die in space.

If this is about the branched timeline theory, which it seems to be, I have one thing to say: Squall does indeed bring Rinoa to the space station to meet Ellone. However, that doesn't mean that he has to save her after she's set loose Adel and is drifting off into space. He had two choices: To stay in the escape pod and let her drift away, saving his own life, or to jump out and get her, risking his own life. So to say that Rinoa can't be rescued by Squall because he brought her there in the first place is incorrect.

And about Sorceresses surviving in space with such extreme elements, we aren't really given any examples as to whether this is true or not. But if they're immortal, they mind as well be able to survive in space. That's a step down from immortality, after all.---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/27/2003 1:17:28 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut: There was another topic about the translation error. Half said it was correct, half said it was an error.

While I may be working against myself here, I don't think a sorceress could survive a vacuum, or the assosiated explosive decompression. They can be killed after all.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 1:39:37 PM | Message DetailTake note that I am remembering the old debates on this, and there there was really no one who said it was not an error, and everybody said it was an error.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/27/2003 5:39:46 PM | Message DetailHey, I just thought up a really absurd new point!

Well, you know how people say that if you scan Ultimecia in her final form and then rotate her, it looks like you can see an astronaut suite underneath all of that other junk? I've never seen it myself, but if it doesn't look too glitchy it might be there on purpose, referencing Rinoa's drift into space that created Ultimecia! Yeah, I have way too much free time. And that probably is the stupidest point ever thought up involving this, but it's worth a shot. While I'm at it, I also thought over the fact that the battle with Ultimecia's final form takes place in space, another possible reference to Rinoa's drifting. ---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page,

First Page | Previous Page | Page 10 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Geasha | Posted: 6/27/2003 5:45:38 PM | Message Detaila link to a good clear picture would be appreciated---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/27/2003 5:50:01 PM | Message DetailI looked on Google, but I couldn't find any pictures of it. I've only heard people talk about it, though, never tried it out for myself. And since I'm a couple of hundred miles from my PS2 and copy of FFVIII, I won't be able to check it myself for around another month. I know people around here have talking about it, though. But hey, it could just be a glitch.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/27/2003 6:43:15 PM | Message DetailBahamut you're really getting on my nerves.

I remember a topic from only a week or so ago, and there were people who said it was not an error, and they said they DID own the Japanese version.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/27/2003 6:55:16 PM | Message DetailI didn't see that topic. If someone else could back you up though, then I will believe you.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/27/2003 10:26:41 PM | Message DetailThat's the problem. I can't find it.

I remember seeing it, but can't find it.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: The Blind One | Posted: 6/28/2003 12:40:40 AM | Message DetailThen I believe you've failed to deliver the burden of proof in this topic...---"The fastest way to succeed is to look as if you're playing by somebody else's rules, while quietly playing by your own." From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/28/2003 12:51:39 AM | Message DetailFor being a Blind One you can see pretty well.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: The Blind One | Posted: 6/28/2003 3:08:58 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]


From: The Blind One | Posted: 6/28/2003 3:12:43 AM | Message DetailNot really, just stating the obvious due to boredom...Doesn't really take a man with a sense of perception to state the obvious eh---"The fastest way to succeed is to look as if you're playing by somebody else's rules, while quietly playing by your own." From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/28/2003 4:22:02 AM | Message DetailI'm still holding that FF8 is a game of interpretation that is scripted very well.

The writer gives you all the evidence you need, but only enough to draw your own conclusions.

God I wish we could get a hold of him for ten minutes worth of chatting.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/29/2003 1:15:10 AM | Message DetailFirst bump.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: Anagram | Posted: 6/29/2003 1:20:02 AM | Message DetailThe sad truth is, Ultimecia is just a random sorceress from the future. Throughout the game, the only sorceresses you see are Adel, Edea (Rinoa), Ultimecia, Sorceress A/B/C (in that screwy battle in Disk 4). Adel dies without giving away her powers, and if you listen to Edea at the end, means she dies in agony and pain (ouch). So her powers have gone bye-bye, and are therefore unimportant save the battle against her. Edea inherited her powers from both Ultimecia and another unnamed Sorceress, when you see her at the end, she says she already is a sorceress and doesn't want a random little girl to be tortured by the powers. Meaning, another random sorceress gave her powers to Edea (argh, so hellishly confusing), who bears no other significance to the storyline. Except, possibly one of those random sorceresses you fight in that battle. And as for the double timeline where Rinoa dies and lives, I have this to say:It can't go both ways. If Rinoa continues through space with the whole broken helmet thing going on, even if she doesn't die (which is the whole argument of this part is based upon), she has no reason if now evil to make it so that both timelines happen, and if she lived, then, well, visa versa.---"Cloud's hair is clearly the most dangerous blade in the game, but not once does he think to simply headbutt the enemy"-Shadow666From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/29/2003 10:35:54 AM | Message DetailWhat do you mean, she has no reason if evil to make it so that both timelines happen? The timelines are out of her control, they're there no matter what she does as separate planes of existence. It's not like if she's evil the branch wouldn't occur, I've already explained that.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/29/2003 3:04:27 PM | Message Detail

Ok, the Griever thing has been explained.

Griever IS a GF, but since Ultimecia also says She will draw the strongest thing from your mind(or something similar), we can safely assume that she CREATES this GF based on Squalls thoughts.

I don't see how that line by Ultimecia can back up Griever coming from the ring, so that point in the Theory is pretty much disproven completely.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/29/2003 10:54:28 PM | Message DetailNothing's disproven.

You still have to explain how the name of the ring is also the name of the GF.---The Matrix Revelations: http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1355231From: rapap | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:07:59 AM | Message DetailThat's easy. Since Ultimecia creates the 'GF' from Squall's thoughts. Griever is not merely the name of the ring, but of the lion that adorns many of Squall's accessories. Squall obviously thought very strongly about lions (it's touched on during the Garden battle) and 'his' lion in particular.

Squall doesn't need to be present in the active battle party for Ultimecia to create Griever. All six members are present before Ultimecia during her 'kurse all SeeDs' speech and that time could have been enough to determine the most powerful being Squall could think of. Why Squall? Because he's the leader. I'm sure if Ultimecia could look into Squall's thoughts and create a GF based on those thoughts, she can read everyone else's thoughts and figure out who is their leader.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:35:06 AM | Message DetailWhat rapap said.

She doesn't pull the name out of her ass or anything, she gets it from Squalls mind, and in Squalls mind, the most powerful thing is a lion called Griever.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:46:02 AM | Message DetailAnd Sideswipe:

If you still don't believe it to be disporven, how do you fit Griever coming from the Ring with Ultimecias line?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 9:34:57 AM | Message Detail

All of this 'proof' against the ring point is also based on an assumption. Nothing in the game states that Sorceresses can create GFs. They may be linked, perhaps, have had the same origins, but it's never said that a Sorceress can, at will, conjure up a new GF, let alone the most powerful GF in existence. Perhaps Ultimecia did know what Squall's greatest fears were, but that doesn't mean that she could act on them and create the greatest magical force ever known in a few seconds of minimal contemplation. If Ultimecia was Rinoa, she would already know first-hand that Squall admires his lion, Griever, as the symbol of ultimate strength. That's without any mind-reading going on, either. If Ultimecia was Rinoa, she would also have Squall's ring, and would be able to draw Griever from it. So, if Ultimecia was Rinoa, it would be quite possible to say that Griever was a GF and the strongest figure in Squall's mind. If Ultimecia wasn't Rinoa, there's nothing to base Griever's creation on, as there's nothing in the game that states Sorceresses can create GFs, or, for that matter, read minds.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:03:09 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 11 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:04:28 AM | Message DetailUltimicia was in control of Rinoa while she had the ring. If Ultimicia knew what Squall's symbol of strength was by being in Rinoa's body, she could do just about anything with her power. Remember how Edea created those monsters from statues to attack Rinoa while she was under control of Ultimicia? So we do know a sorceress can create monsters but GF's are a bit different.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:11:09 AM | Message DetailCreating the world's most powerful GF in the blink of an eye is quite different than animating two statues. So even if she did know about Squall's obsession with Griever from possessing Rinoa, that still doesn't explain how Griever is a GF, which the Ultimecia=Rinoa theory does.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:22:11 AM | Message DetailCorrect me if I'm wrong, but does she not say she will draw the most powerful thing from your mind? If she already had Griever why would she need to draw it from Squall again?

---"Everything I say is a lie"


From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:41:10 AM | Message Detail"The most powerful thing from your mind" could be the sentence's subject. (I will draw the most powerful thing from your mind from this ring.) That may be stretching it a little, but it makes more sense than saying she can randomly spawn the most powerful GF in existence.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: JD IXI | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:52:47 AM | Message DetailSimply put, not true.

---"Odin?!" - Squall, FFVIIII love Ultimecia...the Intellect, the Beauty...oh, God, if you could only be mine!From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 6/30/2003 11:46:50 AM | Message DetailSomething I've noticed is the ongoing debate on whether or not a sorceress has to pass on her powers before she dies. One side says "Yes" while the other side says "You're basing that on one line of text." Well, I'm going to dispel the 'one line of text' idea and show that indeed a sorceress does need to pass on her powers before she dies. (I don't know if anyone has went with this train of thought before, so I'm going to try)

To do this I will use one example that should prove it: Adel. When the party is preparing to attack Adel inside the Lunatic Pandora and go into the time compressed zone, either Laguna or Odine (I forget which one) states "When Adel dies she'll need someone to tranfer her powers to. Rinoa, are you up for it?" Or something to that effect. This shows that Adel needed to transfer her powers before death.

Still not convinced? Fine. Still using Adel as my example lets take a look at Laguna's flashback. He used Ellone as bait and lured Adel into the sealing chamber. Then she was sealed and sent into outer space. But why> Granted sealing her was all they could do at the time, but once she was sealed, couldn't they have destroyed her? I don't think a frozen person can defend themselves too much, nor can they fight back. Instead they sent her into outer space where she's still alive, but could never come back (unless by some freak chance her satelite gets carried to earth by a stream of monsters coming from the moon, but what are the odds of that?).

Some may say, they only sealed her because she never would have went down easily. But then you must bring to mind one other individual: Rinoa. After Squall and Rinoa got back from space Eshtar guards arrive and demand to take Rinoa away to be sealed! This is so citical I cannot believe that it was thus far over looked. Rinoa willingly left, and if they wanted to kill her, she would have let them, since either way she woudn't get to expierence life ever again. So why didn't they kill her, or even Adel, to prevent the idea of a sorceress from returning. I think it is because they couldn't. If they were to have killed Adel, of even Rinoa, their powers would have had to have gone somewhere and that would have made another sorceress to worry about. Instead they found a way to deal with the problem in a more perminent manner. The powers would not need to be passed on, because the sorceress would not be dead, but she also would not be able to wreck havoc with her powers either. This is

the only explanation I can think of for the sealing of Rinoa, rather than her execution.

(Part 2 in a moment...)From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 6/30/2003 11:49:09 AM | Message Detail(Ok, here we go)Another question to ask is, why not wait for Adel to die naturally? The only reason they sealed her was to protect Ellone (side note: why was she after Ellone in the first place? Was Ultimecia controlling her then too? Interesting...) and Adel being significantly older than her Adel would die eventually, or would she? I think you see where I'm going with this. They could not hide Ellone until Adel died, or suffer through Adel's tyranny until she died, because until she willingly passed her powers on, she would not die. So they took action when they got the chance.

This brings me to my idea on Edea, Edea took Ultimecia's powers because Ulty wanted to give them away (to finally die, to be with Squall, you decide, thats not my job, the point is she did) so Edea took them. Now, if sorceresses have to willingly give their powers away how did Edea give them to Rinoa? In the game she says she gave them away without realizing it, and I think thats because she didn't give them away. Ultimecia did. Since they were Ulty's powers from the start and since Ulty was possessing her I think it is perfectly plausible that Ultimecia could give them to Rinoa, especially when you consider that she went to possess Rinoa at that moment as well.

So why did General Caraway want the execution of Edea, rather than her sealing? Probably because he didn't know about the transfer effects. Keep in mind the people in Eshtar have studied these things for a long time being opressed by an evil dictator. General Caraway on the other hand, does not seem to have studied sorceresses.

This is just an idea of mine, so feel free to question it in any way and I'll be happy to supply the answers. I refuse to take part in the Rinoa=Ultimecia debate, but I did want to correct something I saw as glaringly obvious. People are NOT basing the power transfer idea on one line of text, but rather on periodic evidence throughout the game.---Hmm...From: Anagram | Posted: 6/30/2003 1:55:29 PM | Message DetailThat theory is all well and nice, BUT, you forget two important things:1. Ultimecia didn't want to die. She specifically says, (not exact quote) "No... Not yet... blah blah blah..." when Edea absorbs her powers.2. It may be my memory, but I don't remember Adel passing on her powers, when she would have, everyone fell through the Lunatic Pandora, didn't they?---"Cloud's hair is clearly the most dangerous blade in the game, but not once does he think to simply headbutt the enemy"-Shadow666From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 2:02:10 PM | Message DetailHmm, Adel needing someone to transfer her powers too is a good point.

BUT, couldn't Laguna just be meaning that Adel needs someone to pass her powers on to so the plan to kill Ultimecia can commence?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 2:26:02 PM | Message DetailNeo Zekele, marvelous work. The branched timeline theory makes even more sense now. If Zekele's line of thinking proves correct, it would be totally plausible to say that Rinoa was able to survive in space.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 6/30/2003 2:33:41 PM | Message DetailThat theory is all well and nice, BUT, you forget two important things:1. Ultimecia didn't want to die. She specifically says, (not exact quote) "No... Not yet... blah blah blah..." when Edea absorbs her powers.2. It may be my memory, but I don't remember Adel passing on her powers, when she would have, everyone fell through the Lunatic Pandora, didn't they?

1) I don't recall that, however. Despite the fact that she might not have wanted to die she still had to. It still fits with my theory that the people sealed Adel because in order to kill her she would have to pass her powers on. They could not take the risk of having another evil dictator with Adel's strength, whether she gave away her powers, or someone took them.

2) I thought it occurred right as she died, or in the brief moment before Ultimecia compressed time. Or perhaps the untaken power caused the series of fights going through time compression. Huh, I never thought of that. Perhaps that bug ugly thing was the physical manifestation of Adel's power caused by time compression. Maybe its just better to assume Rinoa got them according to their plan...

BUT, couldn't Laguna just be meaning that Adel needs someone to pass her powers on to so the plan to kill Ultimecia can commence?

I'm not sure what you mean, could you please elaborate more?

And also, thank you The Onion Knight. While I don't like to take sides in proving parts this arguement in particular, it's always nice to know someone appreciates my thoughts.---Hmm...From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:24:21 PM | Message DetailI actually believe that Sorceresses cannot die with their powers now, but I'll explain what I meant:

For Lagunas plan to work, Adels powers need to go somewhere so Ultimecia will possess that person, letting Ellone do her thing.

But thank you, the branched timeline just became insanely more plausible and interesting.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:25:12 PM | Message DetailI actually believe that Sorceresses cannot die with their powers now, but I'll explain what I meant:

For Lagunas plan to work, Adels powers need to go somewhere so Ultimecia will possess that person, letting Ellone do her thing.

But thank you, the branched timeline just became insanely more plausible and interesting.

The Onion Knight: Could you post a revised/updated form of the Branched Theory?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 3:51:17 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 4:05:45 PM | Message DetailI can repost it, but it would remain unchanged for the most part, actually. The only thing that would change would be my little statement about the immortality of Sorceresses at the end. I could take that out and replace it with Neo Zekele's theory, but that would just be copying and pasting two things next to each other. If you want me to repost the branched timeline theory here anyway, I will, but it would just be a repost.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 6/30/2003 4:12:03 PM | Message DetailA repost would be nice, so that people(including myself) don't have to look throgh all the pages to find it.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 4:30:32 PM | Message DetailThe Branched Timeline Theory

If we assume that there is only one timeline, it can be debated that the game is a paradox and that Ultimecia killing Rinoa in the final battle would create an impossible, infinite time loop. With Rinoa dead Ultimeca would never come to be, and therefore would never be able to kill Rinoa, meaning that Rinoa would remain alive, as would Ultimeca, etc, etc. That is because this is talked about in terms of a 4th dimension with only 1 timeline. If Rinoa is dead in the past Ultimeca doesn't exist in the future. But if it were said that FFVIII’s 4th dimension actually consisted of two timelines, the Ultimeca = Rinoa theory would be given an entire new depth and all possibilities of time paradox would be eliminated. Let me try to explain…

There is one timeline to begin with. Everything involving time is perfectly normal until Rinoa is lost in space. This is where the single timeline branches, creating two

timelines, like a Y. The two separate branches are caused by two possibilities, one possibility occurring at the start of the left branch and the other occurring at the start of the right. The timeline that we see for the most part in the game is the Y’s stem and then its left branch. The left branch starts when Rinoa is rescued by Squall, one possibility, and continues on normally as seen in the game. The right branch, however, starts when Squall does not rescue Rinoa, the second possibility. Her helmet breaks and she’s left adrift in space as seen in the final FMV. For the most part, the right branch is filled with unknown events, but it will be assumed for the point of this theory that as the right branch progresses Rinoa becomes evil and turns into Ultimeca. So we have two timelines, one in which Rinoa exists and one in which Ultimeca exists, but both of which have the same past.

If this were true, we would have in one branch a normal Rinoa, saved by Squall and in love with him. In the other branch Ultimeca would exist, abandoned by Squall in her past. That she was abandoned by Squall would create a prime motive for wanting to kill him. Now we get to the paradoxical part.

Ultimeca uses time travel to go back in time in an attempt to compress it. Time compression forces the two branches to intersect and become one again, so time now looks like this –o–. She can kill Squall and Rinoa without preventing her own creation because of the existence of the two branches in the past. Because Ultimeca would be killing the Rinoa that exists after the split in the timeline, she would not be cutting off the method of her own creation. The Rinoa needed for the timeline’s split would still exist in the past, ensuring the creation of Ultimeca and future Rinoa.

Of course, this brings up the point of Rinoa having to be immortal in order to survive in space with a broken spacesuit and hence create Ultimeca in one branch of the timeline. For an answer to that, see Neo Zekele's theory on Sorceresses and their powers.

From: Geasha | Posted: 6/30/2003 4:49:50 PM | Message DetailWow, you just discovered the TRUE plot of FF8, only 5 years after its release. And to think that 99,99% of the people who played this game just thought that Rinoa was an "reincarnation/ancestor" of Ultimecia. Wow in fact they are the same person but in different timeline/plane when Rinoa manage to survive a "been lost forever in space", splits her in two and becomes evil for god knows why. Thank you for your great theory backed up with some much evidences that it was not even thinked of for 5 years!<sarcasm>-Seriously, isn't it a little farfetched? BTW i'm not offending you, but be a little more realistic, in every game they make Square is really obvious in their plot, and for this game they decided to make a plot so well hidden that nobody will ever find out the truth beside one person 5 years after its release?---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 5:07:45 PM | Message DetailNo. Perhaps Square didn't intend for Ultimecia to be Rinoa. They provided practically no history for Ultimecia, meaning that any crazed theory thrown out by anyone could

be valid. However, if one theory is created and withstands examination, links into the story well, is supported by elements of the game, why shouldn't it be acceptable? Maybe Square didn't put it in, but they mind as well have, since it fits perfectly. I hope you see what I'm trying to say here.

Oh, and just for the records, this branched timeline theory wasn't thought up totally by me. I read a basis for it some two years ago, then added my own chunks. So I'm not the only one who thinks Rinoa could be Ultimecia due to a different timeline.---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Geasha | Posted: 6/30/2003 5:31:52 PM | Message DetailI see what you mean. And there something called freedom that allows you to believe whatever you think will make the game more entertaining for you.BTW i love the Ulty=Rino theory, i think it would have been awesome if that were true, but since i'm trying to find the truth, what was in the mind of the plot writer, i can't let my own preference take over me.That's why i said earlier that i think it's the 1st time that fans of a game have found a better explanation for the main villain than the creators themselves. Without the Rino=Ulti theory, Ultimecia is just the plain basic villain.-BTW if Rino is Ulti, where did she catch that german accent?^_~---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel

First Page | Previous Page | Page 12 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: THE INSOMNIA | Posted: 6/30/2003 5:45:14 PM | Message DetailFrom: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:11:09 AM | Message DetailCreating the world's most powerful GF in the blink of an eye is quite different than animating two statues. So even if she did know about Squall's obsession with Griever from possessing Rinoa, that still doesn't explain how Griever is a GF, which the Ultimecia=Rinoa theory does.

I think I hear an echo in here... =P

j/k

From: Geasha | Posted: 6/30/2003 5:31:52 PM | Message DetailI see what you mean. And there something called freedom that allows you to believe whatever you think will make the game more entertaining for you.BTW i love the Ulty=Rino theory, i think it would have been awesome if that were true, but since i'm trying to find the truth, what was in the mind of the plot writer, i can't let my own preference take over me.That's why i said earlier that i think it's the 1st time that fans


of a game have found a better explanation for the main villain than the creators themselves. Without the Rino=Ulti theory, Ultimecia is just the plain basic villain.-BTW if Rino is Ulti, where did she catch that german accent?^_~

Japanese writers are well known for leaving games hanging and letting people believe what they want. I wouldn't put it pass them to have done just that. And people who what "facts" always look for them, when really no facts were intended for the end.---I don't sleep, I pass out...From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 6/30/2003 6:20:57 PM | Message DetailAn... echo? Err, I don't really understand, but okay? -_-;;

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: rapap | Posted: 6/30/2003 8:05:03 PM | Message DetailI'm surprised people are using Neo Zekele's theory to accept that sorceresses are immortal until they give up their powers (that is what I'm seeing anyways) and disregarding Edea's line which is very significant: A soceresses must give up her powers before she can die in peace.

Using Adel was a nice touch to support the theory. But another part was left out. Adel was seeking a successor. If Adel were immortal until she gave up her powers, why would Adel even bother to look for a successor? Because she wanted to die? That is never even hinted at in the game. Edea's line above gives a better explanation. Adel, wanting to die in peace when the time came looked for someone to pass her powers onto so she could do so.

I never addressed this regarding the Branched Timeline Theory. Correct me if I'm wrong but according to the theory Ultimecia's reason to Compress Time is to kill Rinoa and Squall? When Edea and Rinoa become possessed by Ultimecia, they become aware of the Time Compression plot, but not the never mentioned (except in theory) 'Kill Rinoa and Squall' Plot? Unlikely in my opinion. Rinoa and Ultimecia give good reasons for wanting to acchieve Time Compression. It is a world where all existance is denied and only Ultimecia can exist there. You may ask who in their right mind would want to rule a world in which they only exist? *points to Kefka* you don't have to be in your right mind.

I'm still not convinced, of either the Branched Timeline theory or Ultimecia=Rinoa Theory.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 6/30/2003 10:41:16 PM | Message DetailThanks to Neo Zekele for his theory. It helps with a lot.

And hats off to Onion for the reposting of the Branched Timeline.

But, as much as I hate to work against myself (Bahamut rubbed off on me), I have to wonder. Certain things like the Castle being near where Squall promised to be no

longer work under that. Those events took place after the space sequence.

Hmm.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/1/2003 5:03:50 AM | Message Detailand disregarding Edea's line which is very significant: A soceresses must give up her powers before she can die in peace.

Edea says: "In order for a Sorcerress to be able to die in peace, she must give up her powers"(or something very similar).

This can be interpreted as "Unless a Sorceress gives up her powers she will spend the afterlife in a restless state".or."Unless a Sorceress gives up her powers, she cannot die".

Adel was seeking a successor. If Adel were immortal until she gave up her powers, why would Adel even bother to look for a successor? Because she wanted to die? That is never even hinted at in the game.

Adel was in a war with the entire rest of the world, and many of her own country was against her. Obviously, the chances of her getting killed, or someone attempting to kill her under these circumstances are rather high, and I don't see why Adel could not also see this.

Correct me if I'm wrong but according to the theory Ultimecia's reason to Compress Time is to kill Rinoa and Squall? When Edea and Rinoa become possessed by Ultimecia, they become aware of the Time Compression plot, but not the never mentioned (except in theory) 'Kill Rinoa and Squall' Plot? Unlikely in my opinion.

No, just to kill Squall really. The fact that she doesn't have to worry about killing her previous self(due to Time Compression) just makes it easier.

Now, Edea not becoming aware of the "Kill Squall" motive in Ultimecia is a good point, and I can't find a good argument at this time.

You however, have still not answered or countered the fact that Adel was sealed as was Rinoa, not killed.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/1/2003 6:08:48 AM | Message DetailRemember that in FF8's world, sorceresses are hated and feared. They want to get rid of all sorceresses, which are considered evil. If they kill Adel, since she has to pass on her power, a new sorceress will exist, it's an endless cycle. So instead of killing her and create a new sorceress, which in turn may become powerful and evil too, and

beginning an endless cycle, they decide to seal her far away from the planet's surface so these powers are lost forever, and no new sorceress are born. The ultimate goal of SeeDs and Esthar is that sorceresses no longer exist, and this is impossible since their powers are always passed onto someone else. So it's the best solution.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/1/2003 6:44:39 AM | Message DetailBut that means that for a Sorceress to die, they have to give away their powers.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/1/2003 6:45:30 AM | Message DetailBut that's of course what you meant....

Sorry.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 7/1/2003 9:59:09 AM | Message DetailIf Adel were immortal until she gave up her powers, why would Adel even bother to look for a successor?

You make an excellent point here, which I would like to address. The thing is, I don't think Adel was seeking a successor. If you wanted a successor, specifically one that you REALLY wanted would you kidnap her and give her to a crazy doctor to study? To me, it doesn't seem like the way to treat someone that you need to look up to you and respect you, and some day take after you. I think that Adel was not looking for a successor, but rather she was just after Ellone's powers. Because, lets be honest, what evil tycoon wasn't seeking Ellone? Ellone had a power that Adel did not, and I think it was that and possible fear that made her seek Ellone. My guess is that Adel's thought process went something like "There's a girl who can send people back in time? What if she sends someone back and stops me before I start my rise to power? I cannot let that happen..." Granted we know that Ellone cannot change the past completely, as she has said that, but do you think Adel would know that? Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the study of Ellone's power in the first place that led Odine to making the machine or whatever it was that Ulty used to go back in time? "Ok, find this girl, treat her poorly, exploit her powers, then keep her locked up, but she's going to be my successor so make sure she gets a cell with a window, and increase her food to two bowls of mush a day." It just doesn't seem likely to me.---Hmm...From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/1/2003 12:59:57 PM | Message Detailin reference to the branching timelines theory, would it not be possible for ultimecia to be the unpeaceful result of rinoa keeling over without passing on her powers. she doesnt really have to be immortal for that to be the case. its doubtful that existing as ultimecia could be considered dying in peace.

ive been reading all of you folks various debate points, but i hadnt thought of it that way (branching timelines), and it certainly seems like that might be what was originally in mind, given the way things go in the time compression fmv. that makes the whole thing makes sense, as opposed to just being all wacky.

its always seemed to me as if the game were pointing to rinoa=ultimecia (mostly from the ring. i cant imaging why it wouldve existed and ever been mentioned in the story if you were not supposed to make some inference from it and the fact that it stayed in rinoas posession).

anyway, just a thought.From: dainbramaged872 | Posted: 7/1/2003 2:46:32 PM | Message Detailhmmmmm interesting debate u guys got here

anywho, i remember in the final battle, ulty says something about sending them somewhere, and they would be her slaves for eternity.

so, i believe this states that sorcerreses (sp?) CAN live forever, unless they're killed

about the rinoa time split theory, i'm still 50-50 on that one. BUT if sorcerreses could live forever, then rinoa COULD survive in space

anywho those are my two cents, and my points suck compared to some of your guys amazingly well thought theories. well, my brain hurts now, so i'm gonna go do somethin stupid.----My daddy shoots people!- Ralph WiggumFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/1/2003 4:15:13 PM | Message DetailRemember that in compressed time she WILL live for eternity, because time doesn't exist anymore. There is no more past, present and future. That brings up my point:If sorceresses are immortal,Ulti is too, so why does she need to compress time to live forever? That means that to be eternal she NEEDS to compress time, so she's not immortal in the first place.It is backed up by her speech during the last battle:Time...it will not wait...no matter how hard you try to hold on...it escapes you...She's desesperate by not being able to stop time, she wants to be eternal.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/1/2003 4:21:39 PM | Message DetailIt's never said that she wants to achieve Time Compression to ensure her immortality. That quote about time not waiting could fit just as well with any of the other theories drifting around about her wanting to kill Squall because he abandoned her or died.

And now that I think about it, the branched timeline theory doesn't fit with Ultimecia's castle's location, as someone else pointed out. Unless somehow it does...---

Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/1/2003 4:25:19 PM | Message DetailAs for the ring/GF thing:If it was ever proven(which i doubt:) that Griever comes from the ring, it will not prove that Rino=Ulti.It is very possible that when Rinoa died she passed on her powers to a lady AND the ring containing the GF, and those were passed through generations of sorceresses until Ulti inherites both of them from the sorceress before her.THE ring/GF thing can back up both the reincarnation/ancestor theory and the Ulti=Rino theory depending on your point of view.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/1/2003 7:44:55 PM | Message DetailI would like to put the Branched Timeline discussion on hold for just a moment.

I asked this a while ago, but I don't think I got an answer.

WHO was Solomon? If you all recall, you can acquire the Solomon Ring, and contained within it is the GF Doom Train. If I remember, Solomon had some relation to Adel, but I can't remember. I've been replaying the game, but I'm only at the second dream state, before Galbadian Garden.

If Solomon was a person, and the ring belonged to him, AND he was a friend/lover of Adels, that could help this along. The game occasionally puts in things that seem random but have relation to events in the game.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/2/2003 5:11:45 AM | Message DetailSolomon had no relation to anyone as far as my memory goes. He was just some random guy.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: jesusfreakj103 | Posted: 7/2/2003 10:13:54 AM | Message Detailhttp://www.raceworx.com/funnypics/arguing.jpg---all your haxxor items are belong to Blizzard.Diablo 2 XPac USeast superpuffFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/2/2003 12:37:19 PM | Message DetailWitty, jesusfreak, very witty. Your argument is flawless, we are all retarded for discussing something on the internet because we want to, and because there is no other way.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/2/2003 4:42:21 PM | Message Detail

Give it to him Bahamut.

On a new note, remember how I've been replaying the game?

I completed the attempt on the Sorceress, and I saw something. It was the FMV just after you fight the possessed Edea. When Ulty-Edea skewered Squall with that piece of ice, she seemed sad.

It was kind of a flicker across her face, but she did seem sad after she had nearly killed him. Wouldn't the sorceress who claims to hate SeeDs above all else be happy that she struck one of them down?

I'm sorry that I went beyond that point in the game (it IS damned addicting), I would have gotten some screens. If any of you have the will to play it again, you will also see what I'm talking about.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/2/2003 4:52:37 PM | Message DetailGood point, but it's ultimately worthless. Remember, it was physically Edea that did that to Squall, and even though she wasn't in control of herself, such an event could trigger sadness even though Ultimecia was in possession of her body. After all, she raised Squall, so nearly killing him would be quite traumatic.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


Geasha (30): Board List | Topic List | Post New Message | Log Out | HelpFirst Page | Previous Page | Page 13 of 25 | Next Page | Last Page

From: Andy123 | Posted: 7/2/2003 6:12:18 PM | Message DetailTo everyone saying there is absolutely nothing pointing to sorceresses living longer, I have to disagree... In the ending did anyone else notice that Cid looks 40-50 while Edea looks about 20?---Peter:"HaHa thats joke gum, now your addicted to heroine!"Some Guy:"HaHaHa.....I'm so cold..."From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/2/2003 6:21:47 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/2/2003 6:22:52 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/2/2003 6:23:07 PM | Message DetailActually, that there has been posted ridiculously many times to back it up.

Listen, Edea aging slower than normal people, and keeping her appearances young is

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/help/hboards.html


all swell, except she does it in the game for about 50 years. Ultimecia lives countless generations into the future.

We need a tad bit more proof that a Sorceress can live that long. Read the entire thing, and read some real arguments.---"Everything I say is a lie"From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/3/2003 2:42:25 AM | Message Detailive been enjoying reading this debate, but i havent seen anybody actually throw down my view of the story, so for what its worth (not much), heres my OPINION:

there are three major points that lead to the r=u conclusion: 1) griever is never returned to squall in the course of the game, yet makes an appearance in the final battle, by way of ultimecia. 2) the location of ultimecias castle. 3) the fact that even the defeated ultimecia returns to edea's house (i havent noticed anyone make note of this, but i think it deserves a mention). while each can be individually argued, it is my OPINION that the existence of all three is supposed to cause the player to make an inference (as in the case of squalls lineage) that the two are one and the same.

the reason we don’t receive a clear definition of ultimecias identity is that ff8 is not her story, or rinoas story for that matter. it is the story of squall and his growth from a clammed up stick in the mud, to a loving, caring, sensitive fellow. and from that standpoint, ff8 is certainly complete. notably in this regard, we find squalls motivations to be quite different from that of the other major (from a plot perspective) characters. unlike them, squall is NOT attempting to change the past in order to manipulate the future. rather, he takes the existential view that the past is gone, and the future is out of reach. his internal dialogue throughout the game indicates that as a mercenary warrior, he is painfully aware that each assignment, and indeed each moment, may be his last. it is also clear from his internal dialogue that, despite the leadership role he is placed in, he is uncomfortable making decisions, especially those which impact others, or betray his personal feelings toward them. Note this speech from the basketball courts of trabia garden:

So like...this is what I wanted to say. Let's see... Oh yeah. I understand what Rinoa's saying. I understand, but still I'm gonna fight. I want to stay true to everything I've stood for. I'm sure it's the same for everyone. That's why I thought it'd be best if everyone knew we would have to face Matron. You've all heard this before. How life has infinite possibilities. I don't believe that one bit. There weren't many paths for me to choose. Sometimes, there would only be one. From the limited possibilities I faced, the choices I made have brought me this far. That's why I value the path I chose... I want to hold true to the path that HAD to be taken. I know our opponent is Matron, whom we all love very much. We might lose something very important on account of the GF. But I don't mind. It's not like I drifted here on the tides of fate. I'm here because I chose to be here. And more importantly... We all grew up together. But due to various circumstances, we were all separated. As a kid, you couldn't really go out on your own... There were no other paths to take... All I did was just cry. But...From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/3/2003 2:43:25 AM | Message Detailalthough it is irvine speaking in reference to their inevitable tussle with edea, he is summing up squalls worldview, and setting up the true climax of ff8s story. when squall chooses to rescue his doomed and drifting girlfriend, he is changing the

negative traits in himself. unbeknownst to him, of course, he is also creating a future in which rinoa will become ultimecia. thats why we are returned to that event (and its other possible outcome) in the ending fmv. it is this choice that is the actual climax of the story. squalls story. its where he changes himself, and coincidentally, creates his ultimate foe. leaving rinoa to die wouldve prevented the change of his personality (which is the point of the story) and the appearance of ultimecia (the requisite supreme villain of the video game).

to put it another way, does the plot advance if you fail to save rinoa? no. you arent given that option. square certainly isnt above killing off a main character. hell, its usually a scripted event. at least here they give you a minigame you can succeed or fail at. but that accomplishes nothing. squall hasnt changed, and he doesnt have an enemy to defeat.

and so the ultimate message of the game ends up being that squall chooses (thanks to his existential worldview) to spend the time available to him with the girl that he loves. The moral of the story is that he achieves an apparently short-lived happiness that is worthwhile to himself and rinoa, even though (as the two of them discuss on the ragnarok), it opens the way for the destruction of mankind. of course what he doesnt know at the time is that although he does open the way, he also closes it by beating ultimecia, and the ensuing time loop ensures that this is as happy as his life will get. were left to presume that thats enough for he and rinoa.

my two cents i know, but that ties the game up nicely to me. it does presume that r/u lives a good long time, but as has been pointed out, the game isnt clear one way or the other. again, my OPINION is that you can infer that from what you do see. edea refers to ultimecia as being "many generations" ahead of our time. generation is pretty non-descript. its been defined as 10 years, the difference between fathers and sons, and even wider. so who knows how many years "many" of them add up to.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/3/2003 3:53:12 AM | Message DetailOk, that is your opinion, and it is obvious you don't want me to argue on the given points.(I will if you let me)

Also, a generation is the difference between a father and a son, but that can't be 10 years, that would mean the father would have to be 10 years old when he gets the baby!

20 or 30 years is more like it.

And seeing how different Ultimecia looks than Rinoa in the game, ity would had to have gone a LONG time for a change like that to happen.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/3/2003 8:15:47 AM | Message Detailoh no, feel free to argue your points. thats the point of these discussions, and why ive been enjoying this topic. its just that i rarely post on any of these boards (in fact i had to reactivate my account to post on this topic cause i had changed addresses and my account had been deactivated) due to my desire to not waste a bunch of time arguing with imbeciles (who often populate these types of topics). i like to make it clear when

i DO post that im not trying to beat anyone else down, just offering another interpretation.

in fact, a couple days ago i put forth a different explanation in regard to the branching timelines theory. thats the idea of dabating. if your good enough at it, you should be able to win an argument, even from a perspective you dont agree with, just by arguing the facts in a different direction. the opinion i just put forth is my actual interpretation of whats presented in the game.

as is said, "generation" is open to discssion. i agree that the game suggests ultimecias time of dominance is distant future. but the most specific quote is edeas about "many generations".

just as a for instance that generation is non-descript, i could say that the pop acts of my generation were NKOTB and paula abdul, whereas the ones of the current generation would be backstreet and britney. im 26, and i have a son who is 9 months old. by the time hes old enough to boogie in the living room, somebody else will be stinking it up.

dictionary.com:The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

A group of individuals born and living about the same time. A group of generally contemporaneous individuals regarded as having common cultural or social characteristics and attitudes: “They're the television generation” (Roger Enrico).

again, its just not a definitive word. we cant know how they meant it. im inclined to believe (as you do), that its a fairly long period.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/3/2003 9:56:34 AM | Message DetailI have to say I like bleedingdigits' perspective on this. Everything comes down to choice . . . I'll have to use that in a story one day.

I'm at the battle with Galbadia Garden, and found yet another something. Rinoa says this when Squall tells her about what the ring stands for (exact quote):

"Maybe I could become a Lion too."

That itself is irrelevent. But, the battle music when Ultimecia junctions herself to Griever is entitled:

"Maybe I'm a Lion"

I own the soundtrack so that is official.This is just another bit I'm providing, and it's probably a coincidence. But you never know . . .---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810

From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/3/2003 10:30:10 AM | Message Detailhow interesting. ill call that a 4th major point in my second paragraph a few messages up. thanks.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/3/2003 2:12:48 PM | Message DetailInteresting. I can confirm this since i own the OST too.BTW this music is excellent.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/3/2003 2:21:24 PM | Message DetailAnd on the soundtrack cover, there is a picture of Rinoa surrounded by black feathers. I haven't played the game in a while, so i don't remember if it's in the game or not.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/3/2003 6:38:25 PM | Message DetailI have some cool informations for you!I made(another) search on the net and i found a Square person stating about the Ulti=Rino theory!Go there:http://www.ffimpulse.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8969Tell me what you think...long post, beware...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/3/2003 6:50:42 PM | Message DetailOh my. If that is really Square officials than we those arguments can be dropped for supporting the Theory.

Also, in reply to the guy who recently wrote his opinion:

1) griever is never returned to squall in the course of the game, yet makes an appearance in the final battle, by way of ultimecia.

Because Ultimecia draws the stronges thing from Squalls mind, and that happened to be Griever.

3) the fact that even the defeated ultimecia returns to edea's house (i havent noticed anyone make note of this, but i think it deserves a mention).

Now, Ultimecia possesses Edea in the past, and sees Edea givew Rinoa her powers. Now Ultimecia knows that she HAS to give Edea her powers, or she will never become a Sorceress.There is simply no other option what so ever!

"Maybe I could become a Lion too."

That itself is irrelevent. But, the battle music when Ultimecia junctions herself to Griever is entitled:

"Maybe I'm a Lion"

And this backs up the Theory how? This is Squall saying "maybe I'm a lion". he lets go of Griever being the strongest and starts accepting himself as stronger than Griever. This means Griever is NOT the strongest thing in Squalls mind, thus allowing Squall to win.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/3/2003 6:55:49 PM | Message DetailBy the way:

EVERYONE READ THAT SITE GEASHA POSTED

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/3/2003 6:57:54 PM | Message DetailTriple post. Oh well:

Geasha: That picture is from the opening FMV. It is actually Squall who cuts through the air creating the feathers. The next picture shows Rinoa, the feathers are still on the screen.---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/3/2003 7:33:50 PM | Message DetailThanks.Actually the most interesting part of the post is this:

I know coming from a bunch of Square staffers,the answer isn't going to mean anything,so we called up the big boys in Japan,and they say this: Rinoa is not Ultimecia.LOL.How much more simplistic it can get.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/3/2003 8:08:16 PM | Message DetailOh well. I still like the Branched Timeline theory. But I suppose I can accept that Ultimecia is just her own force. But that's because I found this website that made Ultimecia being herself sound just as dramatic as her being Rinoa. I don't know why, but I'm going to post what I found here. Maybe you people will find it interesting, too.

""fact 3: now i know what you're thinking, why would ultimecia want to kill squall if she's rinoa? well there are many indications why. i believe what happened to rinoa was, she aged and squall didn't, and eventually he died and she lived on. unable to take the pain she became evil. it might sound a bit wayward but read this quote from ultimecia just before she dies: "reflect on your..." "childhood..." "your sensation..." "your words..." "your emotions..." "time..." "it will not wait..." "no matter..." "...how hard you hold on" "it escapes you..."time will not wait, no matter how hard you hold on it escapes you? this backs up my theory of squall dying. she wanted to hold onto him but he died."

Fact 3 Counterpoint: The self-proclaimed theme of FF8 is love. Obviously the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory provides antithetical interpretation for the story's ultimate "take," if you will, on love. The traditional interpretation of the story's ending-that is, the obvious way to interpret the gist of the story's ending, though there are any number of details that are left open to be pondered by the player-suggests a positive view of love as a thing that gives light in a world where, as Ultimecia suggests, everything comes to an end. This is a classically romantic ideal-the mutability of our world. Everything, no matter how wonderful it might be for a time, eventually comes to an end. Numerous poets from centuries past spent their lives pondering this tragic element of our reality. That Ultimecia as a character would be consumed by the sadness of this element of her reality, that she would, in her insanity, desire to absorb existence into herself, to bring things to an ultimate end as a way to stop the pain of never-ending change, is not a meaningless role for her to fill as an element of the story. Her speech during the final battle scene reflects such ideals and gives the player insight into her motivations, as we have precious little in the way of direct address from Ultimecia in the game.

The R=U theory would present a completely opposite theme, one in which love is an ultimately futile entity in which the already unbearable pain of change is brought to a climax in the degenerative insanity of the Rinoa to Ultimecia transition. While admittedly an intriguing idea, this is not consistent with the way in which the game deals with its theme in other ways. The final CGI especially demonstrates the value being placed on human relationships-it recounts just about every one we encounter, from the Seifer/Raijin/Fujin friendship, to Cid and Edea, to Selphie and Irvine. All of these end on a decidedly positive note. This last bit of story is presented in such a way as to build the player's suspense-yes, yes, we see all of these people happy after the final battle, but what about Squall? Is he alive?-that is finally answered at the end. Love, the game's theme, is vindicated. It brought Squall back to Rinoa through the miasma of chaos in which he found himself after the final battle. "

By the way, this is the site: http://www.rpgamer.com/editor/2003/q2/062303dcb.html---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 7/3/2003 9:41:59 PM | Message DetailWho exactly said this? It said square said it. Who in square? Just some random person?

By the way I think when someone brought up the fact that Ultimecia goes to the orphanage at the end, the point they were trying to make was why? Why, of all the places in the world, did she go there? It seems like a big coincidence that she went to

one of few places in the world with another sorceress(edea). I always thought she went there, because she promised that was where she would be.

Also if someone could tell me who wrote that Squaresoft response, and could somehow confirm that is real, I will give in.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 7/4/2003 12:52:48 AM | Message DetailOne other thing about sorceress' immortality: Many people say that since Adel was looking for a successor it meant she wasn't immortal. Don't you think that was just a ruse so she could hunt for Ellone(and her power).

Also I was just browsing through the information section of the tutorial and I read Time Compression. One line stood out to me:

Sorceress' power from many gererations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength.

Now I know we don't know for sure how many sorceress' may exist, but all the ones who did exist-Who did their powers go to? Rinoa.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this pag

Geasha (30): Board List | Topic List | Post New Message | Log Out | HelpFirst Page | Previous Page | Page 14 of 25 | Next Page | Last Page

From: Nicholi Evans | Posted: 7/4/2003 2:50:40 AM | Message DetailTo support what I said earlier about Adel's successor-In the jail break scene you can hear Odine talking about using abducted little girls for research. I'd bet that claiming to find a successor was all just a ruse.---"Hey look at me. I'm a signature and I'm just a big poopy head."HA. Take that, signature.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/4/2003 4:36:37 AM | Message DetailWho exactly said this? It said square said it. Who in square? Just some random person?

I didn't see a name, but apparanetly first some staffmembers inclduing one of the directors, and eventually a man from the japan-offices. I will look for it soon.

By the way I think when someone brought up the fact that Ultimecia goes to the orphanage at the end, the point they were trying to make was why? Why, of all the places in the world, did she go there? It seems like a big coincidence that she went to one of few places in the world with another sorceress(edea). I always thought she

http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/help/hboards.html


went there, because she promised that was where she would be.

Ultimecia went there because she KNEW that EDEA would give her powers to RINOA later in life in Galbadia Garden(remember she was there possessing Edea!).Since she KNEW this, why on earth would she even CONSIDER going anywhere else? Giving her powers to someone else would change the future and she would never receive her great powers.

Now I know we don't know for sure how many sorceress' may exist, but all the ones who did exist-Who did their powers go to? Rinoa.

Yes, FROM ULTIMECIA, to Rinoa, who eventually gives them on and on til they reach Ultimecia again.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 6:50:28 AM | Message DetailThe answers of the Square staffers are their opinions, so you could argue that it's not the truth but:

1)The fact that they work at Square and had NEVER heard of the Ulti=Rino thing BEFORE that guy asked them to state on this theory. I'm sorry but i'm sure that all Square staffs can tell you the plot of FF7,and for this one they totally missed it, and never heard of it for 4 years until a friend ask them to comment on it.

2)There are many things they said that were exactly what i thought before hearing this theory.The team,in order to pass time compression successfuly, say that they must think about the orphanage so they won't get lost in time. When they arrive there,don't you think it's logical that the castle is here too? Does Square should have make you walk half of the world to reach Ulti's castle. It's a question of gameplay. Beside, as they said, it's a cool location.

3)since they haven't thought about this game and its meaning for hours(like us^_~), they have no clue why Griever is in the last battle. Would it be normal,if you work at Square, to miss one crucial point like Griever is in the last battle because it comes from a ring,etc...They should know that. and they don't.

4)Last but not least, the fact that they asked to other people at Square Japan to confirm,just to show that it's not their statement alone.

I wonder if we could find the guy that wrote this thing and ask him to put a name on these people, so there's no doubt.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/4/2003 6:53:43 AM | Message DetailThey also pretty much disproved sorceress immortality:

Edea, being a Sorceress herself, founded SeeD to KILL Sorceresses. Seeing she was one herself, she would know if Sorceresses were immortal or not.

Edea has NO MOTIVES to create SeeD if she knows they can't die.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 7:55:20 AM | Message DetailYes, but maybe that's just that if they are attacked they can die, but if they are not they can live forever.Not that i believe that but i bet that's what Ulti=Rino supporters were about to tell you^_~

For me the Adel/successor thing is a good proof that sorceresses are not immortal.And i believe that the goal of Ulti was to live forever(see the very first post of this topic). To achieve this she needs to eliminate SeeDs who want to kill her, and then achieve time compression.

by the way again:

READ THE SITE I POSTED A FEW POST AGO-----SQUARE INFO INSIDE--------"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Balrog0 | Posted: 7/4/2003 7:57:42 AM | Message DetailI'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but the whole "Greiver being a GF" thing and Greiver being taken from Squall's memories could both be valid.For example, during the game, you can draw GFs from bosses via the "Draw" command. Never do these bosses have this GF junctioned, nor do they use them. Therefore, we can conclude they were part of the boss (ie their mind). Greiver, is (IMO) therefore, a GF that Ulty "Drew" from Squall during the battle, and used...my 2 cents...---"Ill be back in a *jiffy!"Jiffy=brand of condom in the 60sFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:04:52 AM | Message Detailgood idea! Ulti draws Griever from Squall, as you draw Undine from Sulfura(French version name BTW)---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:10:57 AM | Message Detailas i said, sirbahamut, yes, you can argue all 4 of those statements in a different direction. they are not facts, more appropriately, they are premises, which take in an individuals reasoning connected to the statement. it is on those premises that i make

the argument. the game actually establishes very few facts (hence these debates). in fact, it seems most characters in the story know as little about sorceresses as we do.

couple other points: many of you here seem to be confusing long life expectancy with immortality. the game CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY illustrates that sorceresses ARE NOT immortal. you kill 2 of them. how long someone lives BEFORE theyre killed is quite another issue though, isnt it.

someone mentioned adel being from far in the past. im not saying its not there, but i just read through the script again (granted its the one here, and im not sure how complete it is), and i dont recall seeing that. when is that statement made?

finally geasha, no offense, but sooner or later in these debates, somebody always trots out the "my daddy works at square" line. not that youre really doing that here. you just linked us to someone else that did. if those people really work at square and have NEVER heard this argument, they havent been there long. as was said a few pages back, the r=u theory was in circulation before the game came out in the US. its a rather popular idea which is fairly easy to arrive at from the game, whether anyone believes it or not. ive been coming to this board for a couple years, and a topic like this one pops up every few months. i dont know what the date on that site was though.

and as for the official japanese response, it could just as easily be a case of international corporate headquarters telling their american minimum wage workers to shut up and get back to work.From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:15:46 AM | Message Detailsorry for the double post, but yes, thats certainly another way to look at it balrog0.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:27:51 AM | Message DetailIf the guy wrote this to convince people that Rinoa is not Ultimecia, then why does he keep repeating after Square's answer that Square leaves it open, and that you can believe what suits you the most? This person seems very neutral for me, not the kind of person that wants to convince everybody by making false statement.

And the people in Japan knows that they were asked that because of this theory spreading around the net. They know that their answer will reach many people, so it is of great importance. Do you think they would make a false statement just for their employees to go back to work? That would be really irresponsible.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:51:38 AM | Message Detailthats kind of my point, bro (or sis, as the case may be). square does seem to leave it open ended. it seems they went to alot of trouble to leave it that way. so i doubt the official corporate response was "it aint true", specifically BECAUSE it was going to the internet. its the open interpretations of the stories (and the resulting debates on the internet)that keep squares games (look at the top 10 ps bessage boards) popular, and keep new people playing them (read BUYING them).

my guess would be that thats why square NEVER officially comments on the plots of their games, or at least, not on the CONCLUSION that was to be drawn from the plot.

again, it was not my intention to cast aspersions on you, or the poster on the site you linked us to. just wanted to point out (as others had while i was taking most of the morning to type something up) that such info is always shaky, at best.

just to clear up one more time, it seems to me square went to alot of trouble to make that a possible outcome of the game, based on the players perspective and how they respond to the story and characters. in younger days, i was quite a fan of sartre, camus, etc. so i tend to see this particular story from that angle (as i detailed at length). i think the game was designed such that there isnt a "right" way to view it, which is why its my favorite ff. anyone who has ever tried to write anything knows its hard enough to bring a story to one moving conclusion, much less several.From: Balrog0 | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:54:26 AM | Message Detail^I agree with you on some points. However, I feel I have to state, whoever made up the storyline, PROBABLY had an idea of what was what. So if we asked him (or her) we would get our anwser.---"Ill be back in a *jiffy!"Jiffy=brand of condom in the 60sFrom: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 9:17:59 AM | Message Detailyes balrog0, that is what i meant as well, though i dont think it came across as clearly as i intended. im sure that the creators had A story they wished to present, and im sure they could walk us through it start to finish. but it certainly seems as though they went to some great pains to reveal that story in such a way as to let the player draw their own conclusions as they react to it. its a goal of many musicians, writers, filmmakers, etc. to achieve that in a work, and its not easy to do. "im gonna paint a picture about X, but im going to do it in such a way that a person who has never seen or experienced X can still relate to it". i think ff8 succeeds in that area on numerous levels. From: Balrog0 | Posted: 7/4/2003 9:23:38 AM | Message DetailThey sure toed the line in ff8 though. There is a line between interpratation and just being unexplained to the point it's confusing. And usually when composers ect want people to interpret something, they don't want anything to be unclear. Maybe I should give examples...Ok, so in LoTR, the way some might interpret it, Tolkien wanted to tell us that in strength lies our greatest weakness. Others say that use of evil even for good never works out. Both are good. But nowhere is it ever argued that Frodo and Sauron are the same person.-.----"Ill be back in a *jiffy!"Jiffy=brand of condom in the 60sFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 9:33:11 AM | Message Detaili just watched the ending again to note this:

Scenario director: KAZUSHIGE NOJIMA

LoL, i'm gonna harass him until he tells what was in his twisted mind when he wrote the scenario! Was it meant for that there are many points leading us to believe that Rino is Ulty? or is it just coincidences?---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 9:55:52 AM | Message Detailpoint well taken, balrog0. not to shift topic, but thats a recurring theme on the FF7 board, and i think the reason is kind of as you say. the story there is just too muddled (my opinion) to support one, much less several, interpretations. my feeling is that thats because the focus is more on the antagonist (whoever you feel it is) than the protagonist. thats endlessly debatable, and thats all im gonna say aboiut it.

back on topic, as is said in my earlier post, ff8 is not rinoa or ultimecias story. the story is about squall, and the self proclaimed theme is love (and sqalls developing an ability to show it). and from his standpoint, he doesnt care what being a sorceress is gonna do to rinoa. hes stickin by his girl, even if it means she becomes ultimecia, or even if it means shes gonna croak and pass her powers on to somebody that becomes ultimecia. either way, the purpose of the story is fulfilled. who ultimecia is becomes a bit of a frivolous sidepoint. so the lotr reference is not quite on from that perspective, although i think you can argue whose story lotr is. if its frodos (as many would feel), having that kind of conundrum would never do at all.

but as geasha points out, there are a heck of alot of coincidences that convenieintly point that way, if in fact it was a mistake. release the hounds on the scenario guy!From: Balrog0 | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:04:30 AM | Message DetailYeah, well it doesn't have to be Frodo. They never argued whether Sam or Aragorn were Sauron either. But when you say it's not Rinoa's story; I disagree. As you said, the theme is love...love between Squall and Rinoa. The story is as much Rinoa's as it is Squall's.I SHOULD stop posting, because I'm _ close to "bashing" (as some ff8 fanboys would call it)FF8. The fact that the last friggin boss was just a "frivilous sideplot" is...*shuts up*---"Ill be back in a *jiffy!"Jiffy=brand of condom in the 60sFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:20:01 AM | Message DetailI found an interesting interview at:http://ffwa.org/interviews/final-fantasy-viii21%602%602000.html

Here's the interesting bit:

Naora: as for the general imagery, FFVII was dark,weird...all sorts of darkness!(laughs).We wanted to leave that because we already did the darkest of darkest with the previous game.Thus for FFVIII,we intentionnaly choose a very bright style.Considering that most of the FFVIII staff were involved in FFVII,it was quite a

conscious group decision to move this to the very bright side.

Doesn't this contradict the whole Rinoa=Ultimecia theory? FFVIII ending is an happy ending, the game itself is on the bright side, and yet the heroine becomes a hateful sorceress and her own love ends up killing her? Doesn't seem bright to me...

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:29:27 AM | Message Detaili hear you loud and clear there balrog0, though for what its worth, i think you (and everybody here) is doing a swell job of avoiding bashing anything.

there are alot of people (myself among them, depending on the game) who feel that square is notorious for making the final boss "frivolous" (a character who pops out of thin air in the 11th hour as the "real" boss of the game after youve been chasing around a developing bad guy for 70 hours) throughout the FF series. as i said before, i like ff8 the best because whichever way you look at the story, ultimecia is a motivated and justified character. thats what i meant by "frivolous sidepoint". whatever her origin, shes still a bad sorceress from the future screwing with everyone who has ever lived. because shes in control of edea and rinoa, we are in fact chasing her the entire game. so i think its a little better handled here than it is in some other titles.

and to save sirbahamut the breath, the reason for the numerous coincidences is of course because whichever way you view the story, rinoa IS responsible for ultimecias creation, either by becoming her, or by passing her powers forward. so again, it becomes a bit of a non-issue (to me anyway). thats not supposed to be rude sirbahamut. you just tend to be the king of the counterpoint. its a complement.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:36:24 AM | Message DetailAs bleedingdigits said, it's very common in the FF serie that the last boss pops out of nowhere. There are few of them when you know the main villain earlier. That's why IMO the FF serie is not the best RPG serie plotwise. But FF8 and the FF serie's greatness is elsewhere...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page, but not directl

First Page | Previous Page | Page 15 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Balrog0 | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:43:19 AM | Message DetailYeah, but Ulty was REALLY out of thin air. Ok, like in FF9, Necron was just pulled outta thin air, but the game had been explaining mist and the crystal Necron


guarded/used for a while. In FF8 it was just like "Oh and by the way, some sorceress from the future's messin stuff up. I'd look into that if i were you."Ahhhh *remembers the FFVII vs FFVIII topics from when FFVIII first came out*THE MADNESS! THE MAAAADNEEESSS!!!

---"Ill be back in a *jiffy!"Jiffy=brand of condom in the 60sFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:57:02 AM | Message Detaili ADMIT *is making a really big effort* that *Oh my God, what am i about to say* FF7 plot and main villain had more depht and sense than FF8 *Ouch,it hurts so bad to say such things,i can't stand it anymore*, but as i said FF8's interest is elsewhere...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/4/2003 11:34:32 AM | Message DetailThanks for the complement, bleedingdigit.

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but it's pretty pointless summing that up.The Square staff may be false, but their points are not(most of them anyway, the "pool" part could of course be false).

Anyway:

I know Sorceresses could still live long, but the fact that they can be killed normally means that Rinoa would not be able to survive in space with no oxygen. This destroys the Branched Timeline.

Balrog: Good point! This fits in with Ultimecia saying she will draw the most powerful thing from Squalls head. She literally draws Griever the GF from his head.

Geasha: The interview with Noara there certainly goes against the R=U theory.

BUT:

Where does this leave the discussion? Should I try and bring together all arguments for again and argument against or do we call this the end?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/4/2003 12:34:05 PM | Message DetailNecron was horrible. Ultimecia was not. She was Edea, meaning that what Edea did in discs 1 and 2 was really what Ultimecia was doing. Same for Rinoa. Ultimecia did have a developed personality and motive, far, far greater ones than Necron could ever dream of.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.

From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 4:00:24 PM | Message Detailwell, im more in line with onion knight on that score (though i wont reference a particular villain from a particular ff). as was said, thats not really the strength of the ff series as a whole. some may like the way its handled here, others may not.

as for damaging the happy vibe of the game, again, its a marginal difference either way:

Rinoa: But Edea's still... I can't guarantee anything, either, if Ultimecia possesses me again... You saw me. She controlled me in outer space and made me break Adel's seal. What might happen next time? What will I end up doing? Will I end up fighting everyone? ...Scary thought, isn't it?

Squall: (Rinoa......) (Even if you end up as the world's enemy.) (I'll...) (I'll be your knight.)

Rinoa: If I fall under Ultimecia's control again... SeeD will come kill me, right? And the leader of SeeD is you, Squall... Squall's sword will pierce my heart...... I guess it's ok if it's you, Squall. Nobody else. Squall, if that ever happens...

Squall: That's enough! I'll never do anything like that. The sorceress I'm after is not you, Rinoa. My enemy is the sorceress from the future... Ultimecia.

Rinoa: Ultimecia lives in the future and possesses me. She uses my body as her extension in this world. How will you save me?

Squall: I'll come up with something... There's gotta be a way.

i promise this is the last time ill say it, but from the perspective of the squall we control, he found another way. he went to the future and beat ultimecia, not knowing it was rinoa (if you believe that). for that squall, ultimecia is dead and wont harass his lady friend again.

this is why the entire video game industry should either put a moratorium on time travel games, or be forced to spend at least two pages of the bleeding manual explaining to you what theory of time travel the developers are going to work from.

as for whether we can call this the end, i dont know. it seems like theres a general consensus that while there may have been one story in mind, you can squeeze a couple out of it without making the game contradict itself. a consensus on a gamefaqs board? dogs and cats, living together. mass hysteria.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 4:28:27 PM | Message DetailSir Bahamut:

Maybe we should make a FFVIII Mysteries FAQ, with all that we(meaning all the ppl in this topic) have gathered so far, and the different theories(The reincarnation/ancestor theory, the branched timeline theory and the Rinoa is

Ultimecia theory), with all evidences listed for all theories(quotes, events,etc in the game, interviews from the FF8 creators,analyse of the ending--i can do that since i can view all FMVs on my comp frame by frame--etc...).What do you,and other concerned people think about it?

On a side note, i found a good FF8 analysis at http://otakucentral.tripod.com/ff8-1.htmIt's worth a look...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 4:47:08 PM | Message Detailand to bleedingdigits:

We know that it is a marginal difference, but we are precisely talking about this marginal difference.The fact that Squall may ends up killing Rinoa is of importance, at least for me.

And the script you just write is another point leaning toward the Ulti=Rino theory.The world's greatest ennemy =Ultimecia?...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/4/2003 5:11:16 PM | Message DetailA FF8 mysteries FAQ would be great! I'm in on it at least.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/4/2003 5:31:32 PM | Message DetailAlright,then!I'm waiting for the others to tell if they are interested(especially the guy that brought up the branched timeline theory, and everyone wanting to add their research,thoughts,etc...on what we have discussed so far)---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/4/2003 8:02:29 PM | Message DetailA Mystery FAQ! What a great idea! I'm definitely in on it!

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: saoh | Posted: 7/4/2003 10:05:28 PM | Message Detaildont you dare to talk about rinoa like that!---MY SITE. Crystal Fantasy. FFCC all the time http://crystalfantasy2003.tk/ MOST WANTED GAME: FF:CC-kupo

From: bleedingdigits | Posted: 7/4/2003 11:40:19 PM | Message Detailyes geasha, thats why i used that quote. yet another example of how the choice of words suggests r=u. for the sake of argument, i chose to apply it in the other direction, but those lines are rather eerie and suggestive, dont you think?

and yes, i understand your concern with this "subtle difference", and didnt mean to belittle that. i was just saying that i dont think the games generally positive attitude, and particularly the "happy" ending are greatly affected by the identity of ultimecia. its a happy ending either way, as they dont know they smacked down rinoa.

and yes thats a good idea for an faq. that way the same topic and ensuing conversation doesnt have to be repeated every 3 or 4 months. someone can just kindly point the next person who brings this up to the faq.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/5/2003 3:47:53 AM | Message DetailGeasha, will you be in charge or what? We need to figure out who writes about what, and how should we write it?

We could first bring up ALL arguments, quotes, gamescript etc., and then underneath each have the counterpoint or something.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 11:35:13 AM | Message DetailHi there!I think we should split the work. I've tried to make a plan of what the FAQ will be, it's just an idea so feel free to correct me,since some of you are more experienced in making FAQs than me.

FFVIII Mysteries FAQ

-SPOILERS WARNING(a little intro to tell ppl not to read if haven't finished the game)

INTRODUCTIONWho is Ultimecia/Her motive/Her origin(just an introduction stating that since the release of FF8 many people have tried to explain who Ulti is, and tried to find a good theory on what was her motive for time compression.This resulted on people starting making theories, thus the goal of this FAQ is to expose the different things people have came up with)

THE 3 MAIN THEORIES

I-THE REINCARNATION/ANCESTOR THEORY by me and anybody wanting to make this part too.(quotes,events will be included)

II-THE BRANCHED TIMELINE THEORY by TheOnionKnight and anyone who wants to participate in it.(same here, the space suits shattering scene for example)

III-THE RINOA=ULTIMECIA THEORY(the big part of the FAQ)

III.a-The original Theory(anonymous, i wasn't able to find who has made the theory)Just the original theory as it is at http://saquallsangel83.freeservers.com/about.html

III.b-Analysis of the theory(each points analysed,backed up or destroyed by facts,quotes,events in the game)

1)Sorceresses life span

2)The origin of Rinoa's powers(sorcereses's powers: how are they transmitted/acquired)

3)Ultimecia's goal by achieving time compression3.a-The "she wants to live forever" theory3.b-The "she wants to be reunited with Squall" theory(all backed up by quotes,events,etc in the game)

4)Griever's origin4.a- Squall's mind4.b- The ring(again everything that can back up the ring or Squall's mind theory will be included here)

5) The wings5.a- Black/white wings symbolism5.b- Ending FMV analysis(the wings turning to black)

6)The ending(analysis of the trippy scene, with all the scenes that leans up toward the R=U theory,and all the ones that contradict the R=U theory)

III.c-Miscellanous/Coincidences(i don't know where to fit in the speech when Rinoa tells Squall that she may ends up as the world's greatest ennemy,and the fact that he may ends up piercing her heart.Any ideas? Also the "Maybe i could become a Lion too", and the mysterious "And..." when Ultimecia dies: what was she about to say?)Also the FF8 team interview...

CONCLUSION(just a little conclusion about this mystery and the fact that Square leaves it open for you to believe what suits you the most...)

Well,it is just a little plan i thought of, if anyone has a better idea,or wants to change or add something--which will be necessary since it's imcomplete and vague--i'm waiting for your comments.I also have to search through the many pages i have saved in my computer about the R=U theory to see if i forgot something.I have ordered an american copy of the game so i can play it again and note all

interesting quotes and events in english.And tell me too what parts you are interested in making.BTW TheOnionKnight, i've put you in the branched timeline theory since you were the one that came up with, but tell me if it's ok with you?Bye...

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/5/2003 1:08:45 PM | Message DetailThat looks good. I can start working on analysing the Rinoa = Ultimceia theory, unless you object. I'll just start anyway.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 1:47:02 PM | Message DetailAlright, i'm gonna start the R/A theory, and then group everything i've gathered for the R=U theory and work on it too. I think i'm gonna start with the extended lifespan thing.Maybe we should exchange our email,so we can send eachother our material,and one of us will reunite the whole thing?We'll have to improve the FAQ plan too...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/5/2003 2:05:11 PM | Message DetailMy mailadress is [email protected].

I suggest we split up the work. Now, if I cover the Analysis of the R=U theory, then you can add anything I may have forgotten.

By the way, the link you gave didn't work for me. Can I use the link that contains the "Official Square reply"?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/5/2003 5:26:05 PM | Message DetailI seem to have been forgotten despite my having created this topic.

Damn all this work I've had to do. I made this topic, but I can hardly contribute before one of you guys brings up a point I would have made.

Crap.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 5:41:02 PM | Message Detail

OK, enough of the nonsense. Here is some definitive proof that Ultimecia is not Rinoa. Though I'm sure several of you will keep arguing.

Disc 3, when you go to Edea's house and she first tells you about Ultimecia she says:"Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time"

Many generations means around the time Squall and Rinoa's great-great-great-great-great grandchildren are old and in their deathbeds. Possibly even hundreds of years after that. There is NO PROOF whatsoever to the theories of anyone in the game living extended lives nonetheless anything specific to Rinoa being practically immortal.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:08:38 PM | Message DetailHey!nobody is forgotten. Since the R=U is the huge part of the FAQ, maybe we should share the work. One work on point 1, one on point 2,etc...Maybe you could work on Griever's origin. Look for all the quotes,facts,etc that suggest it was created by Squall's mind, and all the facts,etc...that may suggest it was from the ring(look in the script at ,in the part where Rinoa is taken by esthar to be sealed in the mausoleum--sorry if it's wrong,haven't played in a while--,she wants to give back his ring to Squall,but he clearly says that she can keep it, which prooves that she has the original)...

Or maybe you can work on the miscellanous/coincidences thing, and note every part in the script that suggest that Rinoa is Ulti,but does not fit in any of the other category.(the conversation that bleedingdigits posted a few post ago, the "Maybe i'm a lion" thing, the "And..." just before Ulti dies...)you should look in the whole topic for any interesting things that was posted posted, the script...

BTW my email is [email protected]

Sir Bahamut, you can use everything that you find interesting for the R=U theory, including Square's statement, the staff interview and the original theory.But i suggest to work on one point at a time,like i said to SideswipeZulu,so nobody is forgotten.

I have another link for the R=U theory,but the text is slightly different: http://www.balamb.com/ultimecia/rinoa.htmlI repost the other link, it works for me,maybe i've made an error when typing: http://squallsangel83.freeservers.com/about.html

Well,if anybody has a question or anything just email me.Bye!---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2

Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 16 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:14:33 PM | Message DetailWill do.

And GreatAnubis: Please, you think that we haven't already gone over that a million times? Honestly!

I could not be bothered to go through it again, so read the damn topic yourself before coming here "I HAVE PROOF" when it's already been discussed A LOT!

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:29:24 PM | Message DetailExactly. Actually, i've not bothered to answer him for the same reason. It's already been discussed a lot, and although there is no proof that sorceresses have an extended lifespan, there are stiil hint that it MAY be possible (Young Edea/old Cid, Adel been sealed and not killed...)---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:49:32 PM | Message DetailI just realized that i forgot to put the whole Ulti's castle is placed next to the orphanage thing in the FAQ's plan.That's why i think it would be better to work on 1 point at a time instead of making the whole theory in one go, so we can totally clear up a point before starting on another.It will be easy then to add up what we may have forgotten after.So, i'm waiting for SideswipeZulu to tell us what point he will work on, and Sir Bahamut too, so nobody does the same at the same time...After,everyone will add what is missing in the work of the others(if something's missing), and the FAQ will be a proud shared work.I'm waiting for TheOnionKnight too, to know if he will work on his theory...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:53:34 PM | Message DetailI'll write up the Griever part, and be completely unbiased about it. Bahamut would chew me out if it was.

I paid a great deal of attention to the Griever subject, since it was the core of the argument for a while (although everything was the core at one point).


Right, I'll get to work on that.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 6:56:08 PM | Message DetailWhere does this young Edea/old Cid stuff come from anyway? She doesn't look any younger than Cid in the sketches or CGI videos. Neither of them have any wrinkles, nor does Laguna. Watch the ending again, everyone looks like they are in their late teens or early twenties.

It just wasn't possible to do them properly with CGI back then. It's still difficult now. The only CGI I've seen that did age right was Cid in the FF:The Spirits Within. That of course was years later, and had a much larger budget and expectation on the visuals. Unlike FFX, FF8's videos still have a animated look to them. Just to a lesser degree than FF7's.

That's pretty shaky ground to stand on for a demonstration that sorceress live extended lives. As far as Adel being imprisoned instead of killed. How about inability do to her power, or just humanity? It's safe to assume an advanced civilization like that in Esthar doesn't go around killing just because they can. They would dominate the entire FF8 world if the did. Their technology far outclasses all other areas of the world.

For the sake of argument, let's say they did want to kill Adel. Maybe it just wasn't possible. As the story in the game goes only this small group of SeeDs (+ Rinoa of course) is capable of saving the world by destroying Ultimecia. It's a standard in RPGs and fantasy stories. Only one person (or small group) is capable of defeating the world-threatening maniacal power.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:05:38 PM | Message DetailThis FAQ is going to be crazy.

We should repost it so there's no need to skip back a page.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:06:15 PM | Message DetailSo,they didn't manage to kill Adel, but yet they managed to capture her ALIVE,although she's very powerful and could use her power to kill them, and managed to take her to the space seal and seal her AGAINST HER WILL. If they were enough powerful to do that, they were enough powerful to kill her. And yet they chose to seal her...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:15:53 PM | Message DetailSorry for the double post.

To the FAQ writers:

I have an excellent FF8 timeline, from Hyne's time to Ultimecia's time, at:

http://www.ffcompendium.com/h/ff8story.shtml

It covers the whole timeline of FF8's world.It prooves,amongs other things, that Adel is not from the far past as the original theory says, but only from 17 years ago. I hope it may helps you.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:16:11 PM | Message DetailOK, that was in my first point on Adel though. Maybe the advanced civilization doesn't like capital punishment. It's a very reasonable assumption. Adel is obviously able to be killed, as we, the players, do in fact kill her. In point of fact I could step outside right now and kill two or three people easily, but that doesn't mean I'm going to. If I feel that they are a danger, I may want them put into a situation where they can cause no harm without stripping away their life.

It's not a difficult concept, every country in the world does it every day. It's called prison.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:20:12 PM | Message DetailOr perhaps it's what the other poster said.

They chose to seal Adel, so that they could prevent Sorceresses from surfacing in Esthar. Better to have them forzen, then kill them and have potentially more powerful and evil ones to deal with.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:26:21 PM | Message DetailAlright, since i'm on a good mood, i'm gonna develop.

First, i do not believe Rinoa is Ultimecia myself.But since there are many hints in the game that suggest that, that's why we're making a FAQ.

Second, an explanation for the sealing of Adel could be that since a sorceresses must pass on her powers to die in peace, Adel would have to pass it onto someone else. Esthar do not want that,because it may start an endless cycle, were a new sorceress is born,and might become enough powerful to become another Adel. Remember, the goal of the SeeDs and Esthar is to get rid of sorceresses. If by killing Adel, another sorceress is born,so it's pointless.So they decide to seal Adel instead of killing her to end the cycle.So no new sorceress

is born.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:28:26 PM | Message DetailYes, that could be as well. Seems much more reasonable then assuming she's immortal. Especially since we kill her in the game, that alone seems to disprove that she is alive because she couldn't be killed.

To think that sorceress life spans are insanely long based on Adel being imprisoned or Edea not having wrinkles (when noone does), seems very much like going out on the proverbial limb. And in this particular case that's a very small limb and you would be carrying a bag of bricks with you.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:33:15 PM | Message DetailWhen it comes down to it, I don't like the Ultimecia = Rinoa thing at all for the simple reason that it completely transforms the plot. The story goes in such a pleasant way at the end, the world is saved, everyone is ok, and our young lovers are together. It would totally destroy the whole message of love that the game is about if one of those lovers becomes evil and attempts to wipe out all of existence. Rather puts a damper on the honeymoon don't you think? I see it as completely ruining the story as well, that's why the whole theory irks me so.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:36:27 PM | Message DetailIn fact,the Rino=Ulti believers think that a sorceress is immortal UNLESS they are harmed or killed. Like if nothing happens to them,they can live a very long time, but they can be killed.

And in CG no one has wrinkles, but in-game Cid LOOKS old, but Edea doesn't. She seems like a 25/30 years old, and Cid more like 50 years old.But you can argue too that Edea was younger than Cid when they got married, it's very common in a couple that the guy is older than the lady.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:40:35 PM | Message DetailAlthough i don't really believe it, i think it would add more depht to the plot, especially for Ultimecia's motive for time compression. It is never explained in the game why the heck does she want time compression so bad...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/5/2003 7:41:03 PM | Message DetailYeah, in-game, Cid does move around a bit rougher. I think it's a safe assumption that

Edea is around 35-40. Meaning she was between 18 and 23 when she was the matron of the orphanage. Cid then could easily be 50. Maybe Edea just took better care of herself that Cid. Women tend to do that.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/5/2003 8:02:50 PM | Message DetailTypo!

I meant 'THAN' rather than 'THEN.' I was saying what you just did after I posted.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/6/2003 8:27:36 AM | Message DetailWith Adel being sealed:

Based off Edeas line that" A Sorceress must give away her powrs if she is to die in peace" we can say that 1)A Sorceress cannot die until her powrs are gone oe 2)A sorceress will have a troubled "sleep"(death).

Do you really think the people of Esthar would care if she "slept" badly?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/6/2003 8:29:24 AM | Message DetailAnd Adel being killed by the party is another point. She is defeated, than she gives away her powers, and dies.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/6/2003 8:30:36 AM | Message DetailAnd I'll start on "Sorceresses Lifespan".


20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this pag

First Page | Previous Page | Page 17 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/6/2003 5:44:07 PM | Message DetailHi...just checking that you're doing fine. I'm almost done with the reincarnation/ancestor theory(it's normal since it's the shortest and the most common theory, so don't worry if you haven't finished,your point must be fully developped,since the R=U theory is the huge part of the faq)

Afterward i'll take the ending FMV analysis,and the wings parts, since i'm the one can


can view FMVs at slow speed on my comp.

Don't forget i put a link to FF8 total timeline a few post ago,if you want to see the order of events since Hyne time to Ulti's time.

I haven't heard TheOnionKnight recently, i hope he'll handle his theory...

So SideswipeZulu handles Griever's part, and Sir Bahamut sorceresses lifespan part. Fine! When you're ok, just choose another point, but take your time so it is as perfect as possible:)

If you want to send me your work,or have any question, just email me: [email protected]

I wanna ask you: Is someone truly english speaking?(from US or UK for example) I'm french, so maybe someone will have to read my part and see if there are any grammar mistakes...

Well, i wish you a good analysis and just take some rest too! we're not in a hurry.After all, the game is out for 5 years now...

I have problem trying to find an US copy of FF8, if anyone has an idea, i'll be glad to hear it.Bye...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/6/2003 6:33:09 PM | Message DetailYeah, there's no rush.

And I am english-speaking, so I can look over it if you want.

And try ebay, or Amazon for FF8.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 7/6/2003 6:46:17 PM | Message DetailAnd once again illness has made me inextrictably forgotten...

Oh well. I couldn't post for a few days due to illness (family vaction actually, but its rather the same thing) and I would like to say I would love to take part in this endevour. I klnow that Sir Bahamut said that he would take one the sorceress life span thing so I just wanted to say you could repost my theory in it (giving me credit where it is due of course) if you wanted. In fact, I'd appreciate it if you would.

Also, is there anything i can do? I have immeasurable amounts of free time so I need something to occupy my time. Just let me know. AIM: Neo Zekele. I'm usually on, but if not just leave a post or two here.---

"You be moving as fast as Stephen Hawkin dragging a dozen dead midgets through tar" -asriel777From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/6/2003 6:54:27 PM | Message DetailDon't worry, Neo, your Theory will be brought up, analysed, and argued against just as everything else.

Only problem is finding it in all these posts! Oh well, I'll find it later today, when it's night in America. Much quicker here then.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/6/2003 7:42:14 PM | Message DetailNeo Zekele:

I don't know, maybe you can update your theory,and post the updated version(try to be as clear as possible, and if it's possible try to back up your theory with quotes of events in the game(there's a script in the FAQ section).For example,about the Adel kidnapping Ellone not for succession but to have her powers(i don't remember quite well),try to find facts in the game that shows that Ellone was not treated like a successor should be, but rather as an experiment.And feel free to add anything you want to your theory.We'll find a way to include it in the FAQ(the FAQ plan is not final anyway)...Of course you'll be credited just like us!So onto work!NOW! ^_~---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/6/2003 7:55:02 PM | Message DetailBTW i hope it's ok with you that Sir Bahamut takes care of it afterwards in the "sorceresses lifespan" section.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/7/2003 6:07:10 AM | Message DetailHmm, can someone aid my memory here?I have covered these points so far:

*Original Theory point

*Adel and Rinoa being Sealed point

*Lagunas line about Adel needing to give her powers point

*Waitng for Adel to die naturally point.

What other points are there that support A Sorceress being immortal while she has her powers?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/7/2003 6:13:49 AM | Message DetailCid/Edea difference point(the fact that Edea didn't seem to have aged since she got Ulti's powers)

Maybe the "you'll be my slaves for eternity" point(is it because of time compression that she could live for eternity, or because she's already immortal?)

I'll think about it and see if anything's missing.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/7/2003 6:17:03 AM | Message DetailCid/Edea thing was covered in the first point of the Original Theory.

That line I'll add though. Still, I have a feeling I'm missing something.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: ragnarok5743 | Posted: 7/7/2003 6:41:27 AM | Message DetailCould you guys tell me roughly when you'll finish the FAQ? And probably send it to me when you're done?---Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies.It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us.From: Geasha | Posted: 7/7/2003 9:58:26 AM | Message DetailSir Bahamut:

In fact,all the points(sorceresses lifespan,Origin of Rinoa's power,etc...) are the points of the original theory. My FAQ plan was to write down the original theory just as it is, to give credits to the guy who wrote it, and THEN examine the points one by one. So we should live the original theory untouched, and then put our analysis on each point.So that means that in "sorceresses lifespan", it is an analysis of the first point of the original theory.Everything that goes under the lifespan category should be there,including the Cid/edea thing.

So: --------------the Ulti=Rino theory---------------

I The original theory IN FULL AND UNTOUCHED(the 8 points)

II each point analysed one by one

1) sorceresses lifespan(the 1st point of the guy's theory)-Adel thing

-Cid/edea thing-etc...

I hope you understand,what i mean is that you don't have to analyse the Cid/Edea thing under the Original theory, but under "sorceresses lifespan",with everything else you have mentioned.

And on a side note, for Adel for example, you should put everything that suggest that she may have been sealed because she's immortal,and everything that goes against(like the fact she could have been sealed just to end the cycle of transmission powers,cause if they kill her she will try to pass on her powers to someone,and a new sorceress will exist,who may become as powerful as Adel.)Each points should have pros and cons. Same for Cid/Edea: Maybe she didn't age,but maybe when they married Cid was already older than her. Each point have pros and cons.

I hope you understand why i want the original theory to be in full and untouched. The guy started the whole R=U debate on the net, and i want to credit him for that. Our analysis should be put after...

And don't worry if you think you may have forgotten something, if for now the "sorceresses lifespan" looks complete to you, just choose another point. We'll see later if we have forgotten something. If you have taken everything that was mentionned so far,in the topic or in the script, it should be complete.

Just email me if you have a question,or want to add something. Bye...

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/7/2003 10:03:10 AM | Message DetailAnd ragnarok, we just started so we don't know for sure. This will be a huge FAQ, so it may takes some time...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Neo Zekele | Posted: 7/7/2003 10:10:18 AM | Message DetailOk, I'll start updating my theory, found on page 5 with 50 messages per page btw, and use quotes and use the script FAQ. Sir Bahamut can take it wherever he wants from there.

So wehn I'm done I'd like to take another chunk of this thing and start work on it, if thats alright?---"You be moving as fast as Stephen Hawkin dragging a dozen dead midgets through tar" -asriel777From: Geasha | Posted: 7/7/2003 3:47:08 PM | Message Detail

While looking in the script, i found something interesting that goes against the extended lifespan.

Laguna: Ultimecia lives far in the future,where none of us can technicaly exist.

Rinoa is present when he says that, and she's already a sorceress. If you remember, Laguna agreed on joining the Anti-Adel group,and becoming the leader(it was during the rescue of Ellone at Odine's lab).Then i assume the group won against Adel,Laguna became the President of Esthar and was the one that decided to seal Adel.So he must be pretty aware of sorceresses lifespan. So if he says that NONE of them can TECHNICALY exist in Ulti's time, he includes Rinoa.So Rinoa hasn't an extended lifespan...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/7/2003 8:06:02 PM | Message DetailWhere none of us can technically exist.

I'm sorry, but that can be taken a few ways. Bahamut I think can better explain what I'm getting at, my brain isn't working with the keyboard at the moment.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/8/2003 12:21:34 AM | Message DetailHow could you take that in multiple ways? It's very straightforward and to the point. That's like saying "This object in my hand is a spoon" can be taken in multiple ways. At the least don't ask someone else to back up your statement for you. It was in reference to the belief that no two of a single person can exist in the same instance in time without causing a paradox. That statement goes directly against Ultimecia being Rinoa and sorceress's having extended lifespans.

Gaesha has a very valid point there. If the FAQ is going to include all the possible statements that say a sorceress is immortal it should also include statements to the contrary for fairness.

Also, there was a line on the Lunar Base from a person outside the control room that seems vital toward the imprisonment issue. She said something to the effect destruction is not a way of dealing with a problem, that sealing it up was the Esthar way. I don't remember verbatim what it was, but the gist of it was Esthar's cultural beliefs were to seal sorceresses up instead of kill them.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 4:12:56 AM | Message DetailDon't worry Sideswipe:

Where none of us can technically exist

As I see it, this backs up Sorceress not being immortal/longliving because:

Technically obviously refers to that they could not sit around and wait for the time to come. They would be dead before it came.

BUT, there are two ways to get past this:

*Technically means all the normal people. Not perhaps a Sorceress with great powers?

*Laguna cannot tell the future, som it could be that Adels powers were what made her immortal, or gave her a long lifespan. Seeing that Del came from the "far past" we can assume that she at least lived long, so we can the assume that she transferred this gift to Rinoa.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/8/2003 5:55:58 AM | Message DetailAdel does not come from the far past. The guy who wrote the original theory was mistaken. She's only from 18 years ago.I think he mistook Adel with Hyne.See for yourself:FF8 timeline: http://ffcompendium.com/h/ff8story.shtml---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/8/2003 6:21:17 AM | Message DetailThat's why we must pay attention to what is written in his theory. Many things are biased or false.

Fact1: Adel is from the far past:WRONG,the oldest time she's mentioned is 18 years ago.

Fact2:It is never explained how Rinoa became a sorceress: WRONGZell:Matron is not a sorceress anymore.Matron gave away her powers to someone without realizing it.Squall: (To Rinoa...)Squall: Rinoa is a sorceress now.She received Matron's powers.

That's why it's important to reread the script,cause here we have PROOF that some points of the theory are wrong.

I hope i'm not too hard on you, but our FAQ must really examine things closely, i we want it to be unbiased and accurate.

That's why the original theory will be here as reference, but will be separated from our own analysis.(read my previous post to Sir Bahamut)...

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to

do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 6:53:12 AM | Message DetailAh, I see.

Thank you for the info. I will have to start using the game script everywhere from now on.


20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 18 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: CloudVsSephiroth | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:21:00 AM | Message DetailUltimecia is not Rinoa. That would mean that if Rinoa died, Ultimecia died, and Ultimecia killed Rinoa when i was battling her. Point proved :)---Garrett in Cooltown Catalog:Next line http://www.accentral.net/catalog.php?user=3531 Me fale englesh? unposible! i al-weys spel eckzactly rite!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:29:04 AM | Message DetailTo above poster:

1) That point has already been settled.

2) Next time you want to prove something make sure it is actually proof.

3) Since you're probably too dumb to figure it out yourself I'll explain it quite simply:

If Rinoa is Ultiemcia than Ultimecia can NEVER EVER EVER kill Rinoa ever ever ever!

And she is KO'd in battle, not killed.

BUT, Time Compression MAY let Ultimecia kill Rinoa, but if not, read my first statement.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:32:12 AM | Message DetailBy the way:

QED

And this time it is actually correct, unlike when you said Point Proven.


---"Everything I say is a lie"From: CloudVsSephiroth | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:32:47 AM | Message DetailI was joking, god don't be so critical.I actually believe the theory, and thought you did a good job arguing against it.Lighten up---Garrett in Cooltown Catalog:Next line http://www.accentral.net/catalog.php?user=3531 Me fale englesh? unposible! i al-weys spel eckzactly rite!From: ragnarok5743 | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:34:04 AM | Message DetailThe tone in your post didn't sound like you're joking...---Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies.It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:34:26 AM | Message DetailOh. Sorry.

Teribbly, sorry, I just get so worked up about things like that that I fail to realize that it is a joke.

Yet again, sorry.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: CloudVsSephiroth | Posted: 7/8/2003 7:35:44 AM | Message DetailIts ok.---Garrett in Cooltown Catalog:Next line http://www.accentral.net/catalog.php?user=3531 Me fale englesh? unposible! i al-weys spel eckzactly rite!From: CloudVsSephiroth | Posted: 7/8/2003 8:00:44 AM | Message DetailCan someone tell me a couple of things?(I read about 170 posts, but it got boring because everything was disproved.) so i was wondering if someone who was active the entire time(like bahamut) could tell me what became of a couple points 1. Was it made clear whether or not Griever was a GF?2. What became of the split branch thingy?thanx---Garrett in Cooltown Catalog:Next line http://www.accentral.net/catalog.php?user=3531 Me fale englesh? unposible! i al-weys spel eckzactly rite!From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 8:27:01 AM | Message Detail1: Griver IS a GF, but seeing as Ultimecia says BEFORE calling Griever a Gf, that she will DRAW the most powerful thing from Squalls mind, it is quite clear that she creates him.

2: The Branched Timeline Theory is still pending, but all relies on Rinoa not being able to be killed.

And frankly, seeing Edea, another Sorceress creates SeeD to KILL Sorceresses, and Caraway makes a plan to KILL Edea, it is made rather clear that a Sorceress can be killed just like any other human, thus rendering Rinoa rather dead floating around in Space.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: CloudVsSephiroth | Posted: 7/8/2003 8:30:11 AM | Message DetailThanxI think I am going to beat the game again now(goes into room and locks door for the next 30 hours)---Garrett in Cooltown Catalog:Next line http://www.accentral.net/catalog.php?user=3531 Me fale englesh? unposible! i al-weys spel eckzactly rite!From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/8/2003 10:23:27 AM | Message DetailThanks Bahamut for seeing what I was trying to say. My head still hurts, I'm too damned tired.

And you're scary man, the way you pounce on someone you see as a newcomer. Just damned scary.

Not finished with the Griever section. As above, my head hurts and I'm damned tired. But I promise to have it done BY the end of the week. It requires me to go through that game script and this topic just to get everything, and that will make my head hurt worse.

I'm wondering about Adel. Sealing her was an answer; but when the party kills her, she is still alive, passes on her power, and THEN dies. I'm just a little confused.

I'm still not sure myself on the immortality thing. My view is starting to shift towards: prolonged life, but can be slain. And that would mean Rinoa would not survive in a vacuum, and throw out the Branched Timeline.

I don't understand that though. Why would they show an alternate possibility of Rinoa's helmet shattering?

Why don't we all shift over to that for a while.

What could have happened as a result of that possible event? What might have taken place, as it is almost certain now that Rinoa would have died.

My take is that Squall saw something he didn't want to. When he saw her helmet shatter, his eyes became full of fear. My guess/opinon/non-fact is that after he saw that, he saw another series of memories. He saw that if Rinoa had died, Ultimecia would never have came to be. All the suffering of the people of Squall's time wouldn't have happened if she had died. And I think that he couldn't stand that realization.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeon

http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/8/2003 10:24:29 AM | Message DetailHoly cow, I'm the first of page 8!

I'm going to need to make a new topic soon.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/8/2003 11:08:24 AM | Message DetailBahamut, I think you're stressing too much over the helmet shattering. I took it as being Squall hallucinating and having a nightmare of sorts. Nothing more. Losing her is the scariest thing to him.

By the way, I really don't think it's a good idea to mention the Edea not aging thing. Frankly, I could use the same evidence seen in the game to prove that Galbadians are immortal.

Laguna, Kiros, and Ward appear in flashbacks from 18 years ago (roughly 4 years or so before the most recent Edea flashback) and they look exactly the same when you find them in Esthar. And there is no way to prove that Cid has aged in that time either, as he never appears in the flashbacks. Edea not changing is much more likely to be a matter of convenience to the game developers more than anything else.

Given all of this, it will most likely just make the FAQ less likely to be taken seriously, and do more harm to you proving your point than good.

Also, if she didn't visibly age and everyone else did, it wouldn't mean much. There is only about a 14 year period there. Women tend to take care of themselves pretty well and make themselves appear to stay young. It wouldn't be unusual at all for her to be say 20 in the flashbacks and still be able to pass for her early twenties when she is in fact 34 later.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/8/2003 11:23:31 AM | Message DetailOops, sorry about that. The helmet thing was meant to be addressed to SideswipeZulu, and the rest of it to Sir Bahamut.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 11:43:03 AM | Message DetailYou are right there, Anubis, and I'll bring exactly that up under that point.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/8/2003 12:40:32 PM | Message DetailGreatAnubis:

Our FAQ is not made to prove the R=U theory.It will be unbiased,and we will examine both side.It will also contain other theories as well(see the FAQ plan).For the Cid/Edea thing, we'll write all the pros and cons of that point, not only the

"Edea is young and Cid is old" thing. Maybe Cid was older when they got married,etc...there may be many reasons he looks older than her other than sorceresses having an extended lifespan.

And i don't agree, Laguna is very different at the end of the game than in the flashback. He's fatter and older.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/8/2003 1:26:21 PM | Message DetailBy the way:

To Geasha or GreatAnubis(forgot which one only remember a G in the name):

If you can find the exact quote about Esthars policy not being killing, but sealing, that would be fantastic, as I have no saves from Esthar.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/8/2003 8:29:10 PM | Message DetailAnother thing to answer would be why the possessed Edea didn't grin or smile or laugh when she struck down Squall at the end of the first disc.

Eda was wholly possessed, when she became trapped in the tower she expressed pure anger. If, as that poster who originally responded put, Edea was still somewhat there then she would have been pleased that she was going to be struck down. It would have delayed Ultimecia's plans.

I think that we saw Ultimecia's emotions during that FMV. She was a little sad that Squally had been struck. Why would that be . . . and of course we all know what I think.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/8/2003 10:53:37 PM | Message DetailCrap, my last save is right after Squall and the gang rescue Rinoa from the Sorceress Memorial. The latest one I have before that time was way back at the parade scene.

If you need anything from the Sorceress Memorial scene on that, I can easily get it for you. Just let me know.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/9/2003 12:55:24 AM | Message DetailAh, damnit. I guess I start from the closest save I have and move on up then.

And Sideswipe:

When "Edea" strikes him you see a stone cold, hard emotionless face. Filled with

hate, and wrath. The kind of hate and wrath she shows for SeeD in general.


20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 19 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/9/2003 7:47:51 AM | Message DetailHello everyone!

I hope you're doing fine.

I need someone's help. My only FF8 saves are in Ulti's castle,so i can't look by myself.I need that for my R/A theory: can anyone confirm that we don't see Adel pass on her powers to Rinoa? I remember Laguna asking Rino to take Adel's powers, but i don't remember if that occurs or not. I have the FMVs before and after the fight,i don't see any powers transmission occurs.

My import store is still looking for an US copy,so if you can't confirm i'll have to wait to play the game...

BTW, i've looked in the script FAQ and noted many interesting dialogues for the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory. When you think you have done your point, just tell me what do you want to do next,and send me your point,so i can add the script in each section. Afterward i'll send you my theory so you can give me your opinion on it.

Well, i hope that someone can confirm about Adel's powers...Bye!

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/9/2003 7:58:22 AM | Message DetailBahamut, when was the last time you saw that FMV?

I would know a look of cold hate, and that is not it.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/9/2003 8:14:23 AM | Message DetailWell, it has been quite a while now, so you could be right. I was just going by the only memory I have of that FMV.

I'll try to see what I can do Geasha *pulls out copy of FF8*


---"Everything I say is a lie"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/9/2003 9:17:18 AM | Message DetailI wish I hadn't skipped that part so I could take screens.

And I'm almost to the Esthar portion of the game, so I'll be able to help answer a few.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/9/2003 10:50:17 AM | Message DetailIf I have time to play after work tonight I can check out the Adel thing for you Geasha. I'm only a few minutes away from going to Lunatic Pandora.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/9/2003 11:54:32 PM | Message DetailSorry, Geasha. Didn't get to Adel tonight, too tired after work. Sleep now, sleep good... maybe tomorrow if I don't have to fix any major system issues, I'll have the energy for it.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Neo Zekele | Posted: 7/10/2003 11:13:11 AM | Message DetailFound the script line that clarifies Adel's power transfer:

Laguna: Alright! Everyone! From here, we go straight to our final target, Ultimecia! Let's go over the plan again. First, enter [Lunatic Pandora] and rescue Ellone! Next, you [fight Sorceress Adel]! It'll be a surprise attack. Show no mercy. Now here comes the tricky part! Adel will need to pass on her powers before being defeated. Rinoa, will you be willing to accept them?

Rinoa: Yes!

Just thought I would post it, so whoever is stating the origins of Ultimecia's powers may want to include that she aslo has Adel's powers, assuming she got her powers from Rinoa.---"You be moving as fast as Stephen Hawkin dragging a dozen dead midgets through tar" -asriel777From: Geasha | Posted: 7/10/2003 6:12:05 PM | Message DetailThanks Neo Zekele, i've found the script, but i want to know if we actually see the powers transmission occurs.I hope someone can help...Are you updating your theory?

BTW, i wonder where TheOnionKnight went...He's the one that knows well the Branched Timeline theory...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/10/2003 7:14:34 PM | Message DetailTheOnionKnight seems to have vanished off the face of the Earth.

And the way that line goes, it sounds as though they had to let Adel live to pass her powers on. But Laguna also said "Show no mercy." It is kind of contradicting.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: PikaNerd | Posted: 7/10/2003 7:26:55 PM | Message DetailNo, he means Adel won't die until Rinoa accepts her powers. Remember, sorceresses can't die without passing on their powers.---What's (sp?) I see it alot on this board....Especially after Kimari(How ever you spell it) - LockeeFrom: Neo Zekele | Posted: 7/10/2003 8:44:16 PM | Message DetailI don't know if we see it happen. But then agaon it might not be a visible thing, like the way Edea passed on her powers. I mean, we know she did it, but there was no flash of light or anything to back that up. I guess we'll have to assume she did as Adel did die...---"You be moving as fast as Stephen Hawkin dragging a dozen dead midgets through tar" -asriel777From: Geasha | Posted: 7/10/2003 9:10:11 PM | Message DetailYeah,i wrote that in my theory. I think Rino got Adel's powers but we don't see it happens like Ulti and Edea in the end,when there was big thunder flashes.

What are we gonna do with the branched timeline theory if TheOnionKnight doesn't show up? Maybe we'll put it as it is in the topic and give him credits? I don't know...

I'm gonna try to end the R/A theory tomorrow, and then start on the ending analysis. BTW i found an extremely interesting picture in the ending that could back up the fact that Squall can see the future because he is in time compression,and thus realize that Rino is Ulti. Actually, it backs up more the Branched timeline theory,cause it has to do with Rinoa dying in space...

I hope you are all doing fine and that soon you can send me the point you are working on.

See you later...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Anfini | Posted: 7/10/2003 11:44:01 PM | Message DetailArguing about the space helmet or time compression is actually irrelevant in the "Ultimecia is Rinoa" theory. The entire theory is based on one point and one point only. This point being that sorceresses are either immortal or live a long time. It doesn't matter which, since the important part is the prolonged life.

Edea tells us, and I quote, "Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A sorceress many generations ahead of our time." This tells us that Ultimecia is not from the near future, as some other theories seem to suggest, but from the far future. Therefore, if sorceresses do not have prolonged life, then the ENTIRE theory and all of it's entailing points are completely and utterly irrelevant. Period.

Now, then. I am going to label myself as "against" this theory, just to make things a little easier to explain at the moment. The way evidence works is that it must be proven, in the positive sense. It follows an "innocent until proven guilty" sort of motif. Meaning, everything is status quo until you provide proof otherwise. The onus of proof is not on us, the "against" side, to prove that sorceresses don't have prolonged life. The onus is on the "for" side, to prove that sorceresses DO have prolonged life, you see?

I recently had a revelation, you see. Sorceresses do age, and there is proof that they do. Edea received her powers at age five, no? How old do you think she looks now? Certainly not five. If she aged normally all this time, do you actually think she would just stop aging after reaching a certain age? Does that even make sense?

So, in essence, I hereby proclaim this:

If no evidence (not speculation, but evidence) is put forth that proves that sorceresses have prolonged life, then Ultimecia cannot be Rinoa. END OF STORY.

---AnfiniFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/11/2003 12:04:58 AM | Message DetailGeasha, I finally did it. I went and kicked Adel's butt. She just kinda looks like she's blowing up then dissolves, a la standard boss death. Nothing special. After the battle it just shows Rinoa swaying again, possessed by Ultimecia. No real proof of whether she took Adel's power or not. I would say, if she did, her stats aught to have have increased to show it, but no. Nothing.

Now, as for the Adel imprisonment issue. I feel like an idiot. I forgot entirely about the conversation with Laguna that shows the cutscene of Ragnarok and 2 other dragon ships taking her to space. The reason she was imprisoned was because Laguna tricked her into going into the sorceress memorial with a hologram of Ellone. Kiros then activated the machine and sealed her up. I assume the three of them weren't strong enough to take her in a straight fight. So that's that. All that debate and the game actually shows us what happened.

---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:02:40 AM | Message DetailNo, he means Adel won't die until Rinoa accepts her powers. Remember, sorceresses can't die without passing on their powers.

That last point has not been proven, so domn't use it as evidence.

f no evidence (not speculation, but evidence) is put forth that proves that sorceresses have prolonged life, then Ultimecia cannot be Rinoa. END OF STORY.

Yes, we are fully aware that Sorceress Lifespan is the key part to the theory, but do not be hasty to drawing conclusions!There are firstly more things to consider when it comes to Rinoas lifespan, and when it comes to Edeas, seeing you are given no year of when she was 5, how can you tell that those 5 years were not say, 25 years ago, but something like 50(assuming Edea is 30 human years).

Anyway, Rinoas lifespan has other things to consider. Thanks for the contrivution anyway, but as I said in the beginning. Don't be hasty at drawing conclusions.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Terence | Posted: 7/11/2003 8:18:45 AM | Message DetailI had thought the main plausible reason for sealing rather than killing was brought up earlier in the thread: if you seal a Sorceress, you will not be creating a new Sorceress to replace them.

---

The Branching Timeline theory must also counter the following: the limitations of Ellone's power. Although Ellone tries as hard as she can, she fails to change the past. So from Ellone's point of view, the past is rigid and unchanging, no matter how much time travel backwards is involved. Now, Ultimecia is using what we know to be the Ellone Machine, which is based off Ellone's power. It stands to reason that the *same* limitation is here; she cannot change the past. Any interactions she has with the past are what would've happened anyway.

At first glance, this only prevents the past from being changed, with nothing to say about the future. However, now look at it from the perspective of our theoretical branched timeline Ultimecia:

1) Rinoa was not rescued from Squall in space.2) Ultimecia uses the Ellone Machine.3) Nothing Ultimecia can do can change Rinoa's past fate.

---

Really, I've always believed that FF8 used a single timeline that was always *fated* to happen. This resolves most of the paradoxes and such; anything that happens is *supposed* to happen, and you can't change it. (Of course, how the player fits into that is another story; the difference between a novel and a game, in fact)

So Ultimecia grows up in a future where she knows she is apparently destined to be defeated. And that makes me wonder... wouldn't you want to escape that kind of destiny as well? Knowing that you will eventually be hunted down and killed by

members of an organisation called SeeD... I wonder if Ultimecia was 'evil' before or after learning of that. In any case... time compression was a very good plan. It would've arguably been possible to escape destiny and time had she succeeded. And yet... it still caught up with her.

Returning to paradoxes... I don't believe Rinoa when she says that her powers will eventually continue down to Ultimecia. In a single fated timeline, we *can* allow for certain things having no beginning: ideas, for instance. The idea of SeeD circulating from Squall to Edea and back again is perfectly possible under this theory, if a little difficult to get your head around; it doesn't make sense to ask where the idea *started*. Ultimecia's power, however, is a physical entity, and we are told that all Sorceress power originated from the Great Hyne. It would make sense if Ultimecia got her power from another unnamed Sorceress (A), which then went to Edea then Rinoa then onwards to Ultimecia's time to dump itself into Unnamed Sorceress B. (Actually, the problem is less that it's a physical entity, and more that we already know its origin...)

In any case, that's my take on all this, and probably all I'll say on the subject; I got tired of long debates on this subject long ago. Although really, this has been the most sensible discussion on R=U I've seen in years.From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 8:35:07 AM | Message DetailI had thought the main plausible reason for sealing rather than killing was brought up earlier in the thread: if you seal a Sorceress, you will not be creating a new Sorceress to replace them.

This is only if a Sorceress CANNOT at all die while she has her powers. However, if it is so that a Sorceress only wants to give up her powers so she can die in PEACE, then this does not apply! Seeing as they could simply seal a Sorceress up so she could not move, then kill her. She would die, but not peacefully, and end up, spending any afterlife badly.

Really, I've always believed that FF8 used a single timeline that was always *fated* to happen. This resolves most of the paradoxes and such; anything that happens is *supposed* to happen, and you can't change it.

I totally agree here, but the Branched Timeline follows multiple Dimensions, as in every possible outcome exists in a parallel dimension of time, and when Ultimecia uses Time Compression, all these are melded into one.

So Ultimecia grows up in a future where she knows she is apparently destined to be defeated. And that makes me wonder... wouldn't you want to escape that kind of destiny as well? Knowing that you will eventually be hunted down and killed by members of an organisation called SeeD... I wonder if Ultimecia was 'evil' before or after learning of that. In any case... time compression was a very good plan. It would've arguably been possible to escape destiny and time had she succeeded. And yet... it still caught up with her.

Yes, this is the motive a Ultimecia who wasn't Rinoa could have.

Although really, this has been the most sensible discussion on R=U I've seen in years.

This is the most sensible discussion I've seen ever!

Anyway, thanks for the input, Terence.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/11/2003 9:46:26 AM | Message DetailTerence, i was explaining the exact same thing about Ultimecia's motive in some other threads(here and on the FF7 board where some ppl are bashing FF8 as usual).I'm gonna develop this in the "Ultimecia's motive" part of our FAQ. There will be the "she wants to be reunited with Squall" theory for the R=U supporters, and the "she wants to prevent her own death" by me.

---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Anfini | Posted: 7/11/2003 9:51:12 AM | Message DetailSir Bahamut, there, you are wrong. The game does tell us exactly how long ago it was since Edea was a child. She tells us herself. And I quote.

Edea"Squall! There is something important I must tell you. It is about me... Yes... I believe it was 13 years ago... This is when my story begins. I first became a sorceress when I was a child."

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 10:04:23 AM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 20 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 10:06:18 AM | Message DetailCorrect me if I'm wrong but aren't those 13 years referring to when Ultimecia gives Edea her powers when Squall is there?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Anfini | Posted: 7/11/2003 10:20:52 AM | Message DetailHrmm... You could be right. I guess I was a little anxious to find proof that I didn't read it right. The whole blurb goes like so...

Edea:


Squall! There is something important I must tell you. It is about me... Yes... I believe it was 13 years ago... This is when my story begins. I first became a sorceress when I was a child. And once again... 13 years ago. That day...right here, I encountered a sorceress on the verge of death. I received her powers of my own will. That sorceress was an entity of fear for my children. I could not let her get to them. But... This turned out to be the beginning of my painful story. At this very minute, my bitter story has ended. I now understand there is an end, no matter how painful it may be. Therefore...Squall? You must fight to the end! Even though it may bring tragedy to others!

Anyway, I'll stop bothering to try and find proof. As I've said before, the onus is on the supporters to find proof why they do have prolonged life, not on me.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 11:04:53 AM | Message DetailIt seems I was correct. Good thing to, having proof for Edea aging normally would mean the same should be for Rinoa.

Oh well.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/11/2003 11:24:38 AM | Message DetailThe real mystery is why does Adel look like a nine foot tall man. :) Just kidding.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/11/2003 1:51:02 PM | Message DetailHey guys, I'm still here. My computer was on life-support for the past week or so, and my internet was dead. Sorry about the absence. Now, to read all of this stuff and catch up!

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:32:44 PM | Message DetailHere's a relevation for you all.

WE DO SEE EDEA PASS ON HER POWERS TO RINOA!!!!!

It happens after the second time you fight her. The screen flashes and the entire room is filled with that pinkish smoke. We see Rinoa swaying, and then she helps Seifer. After that Rinoa collapses.

So we DO see Edea pass on her power, but I'm not at the Adel sequence yet so I won't be able to provide my findings.

---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810

From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:34:30 PM | Message DetailI misspelled REVELATION.

I'm so ashamed of myself . . .---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Anfini | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:37:15 PM | Message Detail[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:37:35 PM | Message DetailUm, wasn't that already clear? I for one, clearly remember that.

And what does that change?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 4:40:15 PM | Message DetailEdea passes on her power long after that incident.

Do elaborate. When does Edea give Rinoa her powers then?

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/11/2003 5:15:14 PM | Message DetailShe clearly passed on her powers at that instant, but the thing is she doesn't realize she's not a sorceress anymore until after Rinoa is sealed. Zell then says that Edea gave away her powers to Rinoa without realizing it. I've used that part in my reincarnation/ancestor theory, so you'll see it sooner or later. I personaly think it was to keep suspens on what happened to Rinoa when she collapsed.

BTW i've finished the R/A theory! I have a few things to correct, but it is almost done...

Yay! TheOnionKnight is Back! i was afraid of what would become of the BT theory.I'll share with you what i've found,which could bacck up the branched timeline theory,and the fact that Squall can see that Rinoa is Ultimecia during the trippy scene:

You remember during time compression, you pass by different screens,one is underwater,and one is in the sky with many birds flying. Then the screen transforms in some Vortex,a big tunnel that represents Time compression.In the ending, that Vortex is here in a few pictures. And in the middle of it is an eye looking at you!(at Squall,that is) And what happens after this? we see Rinoa in space and her space suit shatters!Squall then cries and collapses.Like Squall could see Rinoa becoming Ultimecia...

I'll input this in my ending analysis as a strange fact. That eye is creepy.

Tell me ,how are you doing with you part of work? I hope it's not too difficult.Don't hesitate to ask if you need something... I have some good links about the R=U theory.

See you soon... ---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/11/2003 5:38:14 PM | Message DetailI'm moving along. I should be finished at least within a week.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/11/2003 5:56:34 PM | Message Detailyeah,i know the "sorceress lifespan" is one of the longest point to write, because of all the pros and cons...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Leviathan 23 | Posted: 7/11/2003 6:09:34 PM | Message DetailGuys, what about in the ending scene when Rinoas face keeps getting distorted at the dance scene, it quickly shows Ultemecias face replacing hers for a split second. Any thoughts?---I'd tell you to stop being stupid, but I want to assign you a task you could accomplish.~ Ogordemir99 From: Geasha | Posted: 7/11/2003 6:14:44 PM | Message DetailWell,we already talked about that, but it could be:

1) Rinoa IS Ultimecia

2)Rinoa is kind of a part of Ulti, since she herited her powers,and will pass them on through generations to Ulti.

Rinoa and Ultimecia have a strong connection anyway, but are they the same person?...That's what we're trying to find.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Anfini | Posted: 7/11/2003 6:18:57 PM | Message DetailBut you fail to recognize that there is no proof towards sorceresses having prolonged life. It is just something that somebody seems to have pulled out of their ass to make the theory work.

There being no proof against this is as irrelevant as it is unnecessary. Prolonged life would be quite the side-effect of sorceress powers. Thinking logically , don't you find it strange that nobody mentions this, not ever? As I've said before, things only need mentioning if they break the status quo. There's no need for the game to state that sorceresses don't have prolonged life, because that's just assumed. For something as

farfetched as prolonged life, there must be proof before you can pass it off as evidence. Don't you see?

Under your same merit, you could perpetuate any ridiculous theory, passing it off as fact because there was no mention of it not being possible.

"Well, it's never stated in the game that they breathe. Therefore, that MUST mean that they're all vampires!!"

---AnfiniFrom: PikaNerd | Posted: 7/11/2003 8:34:43 PM | Message DetailGuys, what about in the ending scene when Rinoas face keeps getting distorted at the dance scene, it quickly shows Ultemecias face replacing hers for a split second. Any thoughts?

So Rinoa is actually Ultimecia, Zell, Irvine, Seifer, Edea, and Squall with a hole for a face?---What's (sp?) I see it alot on this board....Especially after Kimari(How ever you spell it) - LockeeFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/11/2003 11:05:12 PM | Message DetailOk, I'm watching the ending frame by frame right now. When it flashes between shots of Rinoa that Squall is seeing. The first flash is Seifer, the second is Balamb Garden, the third is Rinoa possessed by Ultimecia, and the forth is Adel's seal chamber thing in Lunatic Pandora. After that her face dissolves a few times, then it shows her disappearing, then really blurry, followed by a shot of X-ATM and it flashes on shots of everyone else and the Ragnarok.

When it's back to Rinoa (on the second floor outside of Balamb Garden)it flashes again to Seifer holding Rinoa just before he pushed her to Adel. Then is the shot of Squall falling from Edea striking him down at the parade. It has a big zoom in/out of Deling City that ends up back in the dance hall in the Garden showing the blurry Rinoa walking toward Squall again.

After that is Rinoa's face and a spinning room (the room changes at first around the edges, with an oval and Rinoa in the center (the eye you saw I guess, although it isn't actually an eye, just a similar shape). One frame has Edea's face during this sequence. After some more spinning, there is a flash of Edea's face for another frame, then a couple os shots of Ultimecia for a couple of frames each, then another from of Edea, a new frame of Rinoa, a couple frames of Rinoa in space. Then a crazy fast cycle between Rinoa, Squall and Edea's faces. Rinoa dissolves and image of Rinoa with the space helmet busting comes up. Last is of course Squall with a tear down his check falling to his knees in a bright white light. Pretty easy to see at that point.

If you want to use this flash of Ultimecia's face to prove Rinoa is Ultimecia, then I vote for extra parts stating that she is also Seifer, Squall, and Edea. Especially Edea since her face replaces Rinoa's the most times.

---

"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/12/2003 5:04:17 AM | Message DetailThere being no proof against this is as irrelevant as it is unnecessary.

This is not true. As long as there is no proof either side, it is a matter of belief! The arguments I am typing up are arguments to help the player decide on this. Yet again you come on here as hasty as before.

Prolonged life would be quite the side-effect of sorceress powers.

Why? The original Sorcerer had quite clearly eternal life. Rinoa being so powerful as to be called his heir(or something similar) could very well have at least prolonged life.Please do elaborate if you have a good argument on why prolonged life would be quite different than a Sorceresses powers.

Thinking logically, don't you find it strange that nobody mentions this, not ever?

No I don't. Why? Well:

*Odine only studied Adel. Rinoa has the powers of every single sorceress from Hyne to Ultimecia.

*No one has time to examine Rinoa before she is taken out of the memorial, and Edea might not necessarily have been the trigger of prolonged life. And even if she did have, she was never examined, and telling people would probably only result in a crisis between her and Cid.

There's no need for the game to state that sorceresses don't have prolonged life, because that's just assumed.

And there's no need for the game to state that Sorceresses have normal lifepsna, because that also, is just assumed.

For something as farfetched as prolonged life, there must be proof before you can pass it off as evidence. Don't you see?

Why is prolonged life farfetched? Rinoa has the powers of every single Sorceress from Hyne up to Ultimecias reign. Hyne had quite clearly eternal life(or at least ridiculously loing life).

And for the last time, there is NO proof backing up prolonged life, and NO proof backing up normal life, hence we must just provide all the arguments we can to help the player decide on his opinion.

"Well, it's never stated in the game that they breathe. Therefore, that MUST mean that they're all vampires!!"

Don't be stupid. Anyway, this is flawed. They are quite clearly stated as being human beings, and thus must have oxygen.

If you want to use this flash of Ultimecia's face to prove Rinoa is Ultimecia, then I vote for extra parts stating that she is also Seifer, Squall, and Edea. Especially Edea since her face replaces Rinoa's the most times.

I concur.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Rocka08 | Posted: 7/12/2003 6:54:09 AM | Message Detail2)Rinoa is kind of a part of Ulti, since she herited her powers,and will pass them on through generations to Ulti.

ok so...if shes a part of ulti and ulti gave her powers to riona...and riona gave her power by generation to ulti...makes no sense...first she could never killed rinoa cuz shes riona killing her would kill herself...and she cant give powers so she can have them generations later she already have the power if she can pass it to riona how can u say "oh i need powers so im gonna give my powers to my past and it will come back to me" if u already have the power why send it back for generations...and besides riona got her powers from edea that got it from adel how could ulti tries to come back to have adel powers if shes riona...she already has adel's power since adel gave it to edea who gaved it to riona and riona is ulti... think here... ---Give me mail.........KUPO! Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFe

First Page | Previous Page | Page 21 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/12/2003 7:11:08 AM | Message DetailLearn to write, then repost.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/12/2003 8:08:17 AM | Message DetailI already stated that Rinoa's face is mostly alterned with Edea's. But the pictures of Ulti's face are different. We see rinoa's face spinning with the room, THEN she disappears for a frame,and Ultimecia's face replace her and flashes 3 times. THEN pictures are all mixed up very quickly.Mostly Rino and Edea's face, and sometimes a pic of Seifer or anyone appears. Frames of Ulti are separated from the others, and appears in a moment when Rinoa's face is disappearing. THAT is strange.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/12/2003 9:15:04 AM | Message DetailI still say it's just a nightmarish vision triggered by Squall's sadness over what he


believes to be his permanent lose of Rinoa, the woman he loves. The breaking of her space helmet in the vision was also just the final snap in his head that she was gone, and he'd never be able to be with her again.

I'm a scientist by nature, and dreams are generally a way for our minds to help us process and deal with the events in our lives. That is all this vision seems to be as well. I don't see it as any reason to believe that Squall can suddenly see into the future and witness his love turn into his enemy.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: TheOnionKnight | Posted: 7/12/2003 10:06:30 AM | Message DetailSorry about this guys, but I won't be done with a complete Branched Timeline theory until at least a week. I've got a lot of other things to do, so it'll be hard for me to get to a computer and sort through all of the pros and cons, especially since I don't even have a game. But I will get it done sometime soon, just maybe not as soon as everyone else. My e-mail is [email protected], and my AIM is CowofYes, and I also have MSN Messenger.

---Sooner or later, you'll see it my way. If you don't, you'll still see it my way.From: Anfini | Posted: 7/12/2003 11:32:15 AM | Message DetailHyne was a god, not a person. And all sorceresses are called his heirs, not just Rinoa. You can't equate immortality with prolonged life. They are completely different. Look at it this way. Would you have ever bothered to try to prove that sorceresses have prolonged life if it wasn't the only thing holding up this theory? No.

And I guess you didn't understand what I was getting at. The vampire thing was just a metaphor relating what I was trying to say. Just because there is no proof against something, doesn't make it true. There are infinite possibilities for this game just going on what wasn't said. I don't believe Squall ever referred to himself as a male, therefore, I believe he is a female. You never see anyone swimming or drinking water, therefore, I believe water is poisonous to all Final Fantasy VIII world inhabitants. Prolonged life is just as silly as those examples, in my opinion, and, as I've said before, was only created to make the theory work.

The majority of proof for this was taken out of a fanfic, where the author could create and say anything she wanted, because it was fiction, but based on the Final Fantasy VIII world. Then somebody looked at it, decided to ignore the obvious flaw of sorceresses not having prolonged life, and make it into a "theory". And here we are now.

---AnfiniFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/12/2003 12:02:37 PM | Message DetailGeasha, the FMV you spoke of (where Squall collapses from seeing Rinoa's helmet shatter and her becoming Ultimecia) I had alreaedy posted earlier.

No one seems to read my contributions anymore.

And I'm still not finished with Griever, I'm just not getting along with it. Maybe someone else should take over, since I might not be done for a while.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Geasha | Posted: 7/12/2003 12:23:59 PM | Message DetailSideSwipeZulu:

I don't know what you're referring to. If you talk about the eye in the Vortex, i though no one had mentioned that.If you talk about the Ulti's FMVs, i was answering to the guy that said that Rinoa could be as well Seifer,zell,etc...I read every single post from the last message i posted everytime. So i do read your contributions.

BTW don't worry about the Griever thing, i'll take care of the things that miss in all of your points. I've already searched the whole script for all the points of the theory.It's just fine if you did already a little.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/12/2003 2:13:53 PM | Message DetailHyne was a god, not a person.

No, Hyne was quite clearly labeled the first Sorcerer.

And all sorceresses are called his heirs, not just Rinoa

More hasty guesses, this is wrong. Only very powerful Sorceresses were referred to as Hynes heir.

You can't equate immortality with prolonged life. They are completely different

I never equated the two, I simply said, that seeing Hyne had immortal/very prolonged life, a Sorceress that was so powerful that she was referred to as his heir, can quite easily be assumed to be a Sorceress that has a weaker version of his power.

And I guess you didn't understand what I was getting at. The vampire thing was just a metaphor relating what I was trying to say. Just because there is no proof against something, doesn't make it true. There are infinite possibilities for this game just going on what wasn't said. I don't believe Squall ever referred to himself as a male, therefore, I believe he is a female. You never see anyone swimming or drinking water, therefore, I believe water is poisonous to all Final Fantasy VIII world inhabitants. Prolonged life is just as silly as those examples, in my opinion, and, as I've said before, was only created to make the theory work.

More hastiness. Using YOUR logic(which I'm sure you still hold to) I can say:

It is never stated that a Sorceress has a normal lifespan, thus I believe they are

immortal/prolonged life.

Using YOUR logic, none of these are decided in the game, and thus can BOTH be the truth. It is simply my job now to argument as best as I can for both sides, to let the player take his/her choice.

---"Everything I say is a lie"From: Anfini | Posted: 7/12/2003 3:35:14 PM | Message DetailWhat? Hyne was the creator of mankind, not just a normal person with powers. That most clearly makes him a god. Sorceresses are those who are said to have inherited his powers, making them all descendants of Hyne.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but using my logic, everything is status quo unless proved otherwise. Shall I say it once more? Everything is status quo unless proved otherwise. Therefore, sorceresses do have a normal lifespan.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/12/2003 4:36:53 PM | Message DetailWhat? Hyne was the creator of mankind, not just a normal person with powers. That most clearly makes him a god.

No, it does not make him a God. if he was a God, they would have called him a God. But they don't, they call him the first Sorcerer. Hence he is a extremely powerful Sorcerer.

Sorceresses are those who are said to have inherited his powers, making them all descendants of Hyne.

Clearly, it's about time you played the game again. Yes, all Sorceresses are descendants of Hyne, but only very powerful Sorceresses were actually refrred to as "Hynes Heir". Rinoa is called this for instance when the Rangarok lands from space and the Esthar people come to take her to the sorceress memorial.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but using my logic, everything is status quo unless proved otherwise. Shall I say it once more? Everything is status quo unless proved otherwise. Therefore, sorceresses do have a normal lifespan.

Firstly, I don't think it is right to use the status quo on something like a Sorceress. Secondly, if you wish to believe this, and that the game is limited to the borders of reality, than that is fine. You have stated your opinion, but your opinion does not count as proof either way, so seeing you have made your point and put forth your opinion, I will not argue with you anymore.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/12/2003 10:54:56 PM | Message DetailSideswipeZulu

If you're having problems addressing Griever, here's the scan message you get (from the PC US version) during his battle:

'In Squall's mind, the most powerful GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues to fight without vanishing.'

I'll address this in another post, been having problems posting long messages ever since Gamefaqs updated their security....---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/13/2003 12:28:34 AM | Message DetailRinoa = Ulty, period. Games like FF8 are not supposed to throw every bit of evidence at you like a friggin machine gun. It seems the only way you people would be convinced is if the screen made the words: "ULTY IS RINOA." If you want a game with a shallow story then go play FF9 or something. If you can't accept the fact that there is substantial evidence that proves Rinoa is Ulty then your just being stubborn. Do you 'really' think that Square would leave in all this evidence for --nothing-- ???? "Ohhh lets just make Rinoa and Ulty look exactly the same! Why? Ohh no reason. Hey lets give Rinoa the Griever ring too! Why? Ah just for the hell of it." Face it, Rinoa is Ulty. ---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/13/2003 12:46:31 AM | Message DetailActually, just the fact alone that Rinoa and Ulty look EXACTLY (yes EXACTLY, go compare the pictures) the same is enough to believe they are the same person. Do you know why many shallow-minded people hate FF8's story? Because they thought Ultemecia was a pointless character. Well, if you non-believers are right, and Rinoa is not Ulty, then I'll go ahead and say FF8's story blows. Because frankly, no one would be dumb enough to slap in some pointless character named Ultemecia for no apparent reason other then to add a final boss and some time-compression twist. ---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: rapap | Posted: 7/13/2003 1:44:23 AM | Message DetailI love it when people say the equivilent to 'My opinion is right because I say so'...

Anyways, back to the scan quote.

The first sentence of the scan message tells us a couple of things.

1) Griever is indeed a GF, in fact the most powerful GF... In Squall's mind.

2) Notice how the message is exactly like Ultimecia's quote '...the most powerful GF...' this is the only time Griever is definitively called a GF outside of Ultimecia's quotes. Squall never calls his lion a GF during Griever's introduction during the Garden battles.

Staying within the context of the game's script, this implies that Griever was drawn

from Squall's mind, rather than summoned from Squall's ring. (It is even debateable that Ultimecia even possesses Squall's ring)

The second sentence tells us some things about Griever outside the Rinoa=Ultimecia debate. All the other GFs encountered in the game get one move/attack, but then they have to be summoned again. Griever is able to attack multiple times without disappearing or needing to be summoned again.

Feel free to use this in the FAQ and if SideswipeZulu wants to incorporate this in his/her work, they are more than welcome. I don't know how my quote above differs from any of the other versions.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: TeeROY007 | Posted: 7/13/2003 1:52:06 AM | Message Detail................wow........................................my head hurts.................................................................---Eat a Beaver, Save a Tree.From: razorbladecutter | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:51:15 AM | Message Detailits amazing people still talk about ff8 even though it was a great game. best game everFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 3:31:23 AM | Message Detailrapap: You're kind of late, sorry to say it, as that right there has already been discovered and posted somehwere else in here. Thanks anyway.

And whoever it was before that said: Face it, Ultimecia = Rinoa:

Do not flaunt your ignorance, and leave now, lest you come to your wits(that is, if you have any).

---"Don't be hasty"From: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:12:04 AM | Message DetailYou guys are disecting the game too much. Your doing exactly what the FF7 people are doing: taking every tiny piece of info they can find from the game that supposedly supports their opinion. The evidence is clearly there that Rinoa is Ulty. You non-believers are digging way too deep, questioning things that are either not relevant to the game or that were just not looked upon by Square. In other words, your pushing too far. Look at the facts, accept it, and get over it. Am I saying that I am right? Of course, because this is a situation where the answer is CLEARLY there, and a select few (you guys) are digging into messy territory trying to disprove us. The word stubborn comes to mind.

I'm willing to debate this, but considering it's been going on for years, it has gotten quite ridiculous. It's just like the "Jenova is the real enemy in FF7" theory. Plain ridiculous. It basically boils down to this: If Rinoa is not Ulty, as some of you claim, then why do they look IDENTICAL. I would like to read one respone that is worth reading, rather than "Oh it could be a coincidence!." Same goes for every other piece

of evidence, including the Griever Ring, the white and black wings, the location of the castle, etc. The fact is, if Rinoa is not Ulty, then Square must have put all this stuff in the game for no reason at all, and Ulty is just some pointless character thrown in to the game for a quick plot twist. Obviously, that's not the truth.--"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:16:15 AM | Message DetailBtw, what I just said is toward the people who deny the Rinoa=Ulty theory without providing any reasonable evidence. So, sorry if you took that the wrong way. ---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:20:55 AM | Message DetailThe evidence is clearly there that Rinoa is Ulty.

Would you then be so kind as to post up all the "evidence"? Seeing you believe this so strongly I'm sure you have plenty of evidence ready to be posted.

If Rinoa is not Ulty, as some of you claim, then why do they look IDENTICAL. I

They do not look identical. Ultimecua has a pointed chin, Rinoa has a round one. Ultimecia has a pointed face, Rinoa has a round face. And to make things even clearer:

Ultiemcias eyes have a different colour than Rinoas.

Of course, seeing you are so insistant upon this, then I am sure you can provide two pictures that show Rinoa and Ultimecia.

---"Don't be hasty"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


First Page | Previous Page | Page 22 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:36:35 AM | Message DetailRinoa > http://www.wingedangels.net/rinoa/rinoa.jpg

Ulty > http://www.wingedangels.net/rinoa/rinimecia.gif

You can't look more alike then that.---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:43:18 AM | Message DetailFirstly, comparing Ultimecia to the one frame where Rinoa is in the right angle to have a pointy face, is not what I call looking a lot a like! You just try and compare them with ANY other Rinoa picture, and you will see the similarities do not fall so close there.


Secondly, the fact remains, that they have different eye color!Explain that.

Thirdly, are those pictures the only "evidence" you have? I hope not, or you will have made a mighty fool of yourself.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:45:28 AM | Message DetailOh, and also:

Would you please give your "evidence" on how Rinoa could live so long?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/13/2003 8:33:43 AM | Message DetailtriKY

The biggest evidence that Rinoa is Ulti would be that SORCERESS HAVE A PROLONGED LIFESPAN,maybe even IMMORTAL UNLESS HURT OR KILLED.There is NO EVIDENCE of that. All the rest doesn't matter if THIS POINT is not proved.

THE SAME ACTRESS WAS USED FOR THE FMVs(Rioa, Ulti and Edea)No proof at all...

Ulti 's castle s on a mountain top by the BEACH side of the orphanage. Have you bothered to read the whole topic?There could be many reason for her castle to be here:

1) It's the place where SeeDs originate.She does this by defiance against SeeDs. It's a way to say "I won,You lose".

2)Would it make sense to put the castle 1000 miles away from the place the party land at,and you'd have to walk 10 min to reach it? It's a pure question of gameplay...

And if Rinoa is not Ultimecia, Ulti is not flat at all. She has indeed a good reason for wanting time compression...which you missed. Actually Ulti is one of the most desesperate and tragic villain of the FF serie.

rapap

Thanks to your contribution. The part where it says that because of Ulti's power,Griever can't vanish is highly interesting...Can i ask you if it is the exact sentence? Because in the PSX version it just says "the strongest GF,in Squall's mind"...if it was possible,if you have a save nearby,to note the exact sentence...i want to be sure not to put false informations in the FAQ.

Your contribution will be added in the Griever part.Thanks.

Wow, so much things to do for this FAQ...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: rapap | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:03:22 AM | Message DetailGeasha

It is indeed the exact quote. Happened to write it down one day. I've actually been trying to post that the past few weeks, but having problems posting long messages like I mentioned in a previous post.

I'd like to note that the quote I used was from the PC US version, I don't know if there are any later english versions of the game that use that scan description, but I know that PC versions of FF7 have add ons and translation corrections compared to their PSX counterparts. Perhaps the same thing goes for FF8.

Anyway, is there any disagreement that Griever was most likey drawn froom Squall's mind, rather than summoned from his ring?---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:10:17 AM | Message DetailNo, I'm rpetty sure everyone can agree Girever came from Squalls mind.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:22:32 AM | Message DetailSo much for Triky AzNNN's 'evidence' regarding the ring.

I'm surprised no one pointed out the basic flaw in reasoning regarding his 'proof' of similarities in appearance. Just because two people look similar (even alike) it does NOT make them the same person.

Using Triky AzNNN's reasoning, Squall is also Raine and Laguna, and Rinoa is not only Ultimecia, but Julia as well.

If someone DID mention this already, I apologize. ---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: Anfini | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:31:17 AM | Message DetailHyne was the creator of mankind. How does that not make him a god? The story of Hyne is their belief of creation. What's more, if you want to get that specific, Rinoa was never called Hyne's heir. I just thought you were using that word synonymous with descendant, when you weren't. Rinoa was not called Hyne's heir at the landing of the Ragnarok, she was called his descendant.

Of course they're trying to play off reality. The belief that we could live in a world like that is what makes stories so intriguing. Fantasy and science fiction are constantly trying to explain things as they apply to our world. So, of course, we must look at the story as if it was our world, unless proven otherwise. Just taking off on some tangent because of a fanfic is what doesn't make sense.

And now, to triKy AzNNN, is it alright if I call you ignorant and egotistical? Because you are. Busting into a conversation just exclaiming that one side is true and insulting the other side without any proof at all is what I call being an ass. Either contribute, or get the hell out.

And by the way, if you superimpose just about ANY two people who's face is looking the same way, they will look alike. That's the point of superimposing.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:39:22 AM | Message DetailHyne was the creator of mankind. How does that not make him a god?

Listen, if he was a God, and they considered him a God, why do they then call him a Sorcerer?

Rinoa was never called Hyne's heir. I just thought you were using that word synonymous with descendant, when you weren't. Rinoa was not called Hyne's heir at the landing of the Ragnarok, she was called his descendant.

Yes, if you had read all I said, you would of known I wrote '

"Hynes Heir(or something similar)".

And I restate, that in the game, it is said that only VERY POWERFUL SORCERESSES are referred to as Hynes descendant.

As for the rest, it is still only your choice to look on everything as Status Quo unless proved otherwise. And besides, why should it be Status Quo that a Sorceress so powerful that she is called the descendant of an immortal being, has nomral lifespan?

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:43:23 AM | Message DetailAnd the theory came not from a fanfic. The fanfic was based on the theory.

---"Don't be hasty"From: dogbert | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:47:38 AM | Message Detailok, assuming that rinoa IS ultimeca (im not saying she is), then what happens at the end? the team defeats ultimeca.... and the world goes back to normal... but then wont rinoa turn into ultimeca later on... when the team is dead? but the team from the past comes and defeats her, thus ultimecas time period is saved.

if rinoa ISNT ultimeca, then the team beats ultimeca, and then, ultimeca goes into the past and gives her powers to matron. but then, does that mean that ultimeca wont exist in the future because she was already killed? if she never exists in the future, then, the events at the end cant take place can they?

im confused. From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:52:59 AM | Message DetailIf Rinoa is Ultimecia:

Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, who later give them to Rinoa. Rinoa then because of Squalls death or something similar, decides to compress time, but is stopped by her past self and friends.She then travels back and gives edea her powers etc.

If Rinoa is not Ultimecia:

Ultimecia gives Edea her powers, whio later gives them to Rinoa, who latewr gives them to someone else etc. until they reach Ultimecia, who decides to compress time but is defeated by SeeDs from the past. She goes back in time and gives Edea her powers etc.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Anfini | Posted: 7/13/2003 12:00:57 PM | Message DetailWhy is he a god? Jeez, only because he's the creator of mankind. You're right, how does something as simple as that infer godhood?

And who's being hasty now? Calling a sorceress Hyne's descendant shows respect , not power. The theory was based on the fanfic, duh. The author of the theory even acknowledges the fanfic writer and links to it.

And what logical reason is there for power prolonging someone's life? Looking at our own theories of creationism and the power of god, Jesus was the son of god and had great power, but still aged normally and was mortal.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 1:21:37 PM | Message DetailWhy is he a god? Jeez, only because he's the creator of mankind. You're right, how does something as simple as that infer godhood?

I see you carefully decided to ignore what I asked.

And who's being hasty now? Calling a sorceress Hyne's descendant shows respect, not power.

I was not being hasty. Yes, it shows respect for a Sorceress with great power.

And what logical reason is there for power prolonging someone's life? Looking at our own theories of creationism and the power of god, Jesus was the son of god and had great power, but still aged normally and was mortal.

Please don't tell me you are using this as an argument. Honestly. Basically, it boils down to the fact that a Sorceress may or may not have prolonged life! Status Quo is insignificant. Either they do or they don't!

I am simply trying to help players decide which.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Anfini | Posted: 7/13/2003 1:37:17 PM | Message Detail*sigh*

And I quote, "Creator of mankind, and believed to be the first sorceress." And I don't know where you're getting all of this "great power" business. I'm using what the game states. You seem to be guessing.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:03:37 PM | Message DetailAnd I quote, "Creator of mankind, and believed to be the first sorceress.

Exactly, He is a Sorcerer, not a God, I don't know what you were arguing on, if you had this line to begin with.

And I don't know where you're getting all of this "great power" business. I'm using what the game states. You seem to be guessing.

*sigh*

Fine, if you do not find my word to be trustworthy, or my memory to be good, I will have to search for the exact line/s and instance this is mentioned.

And you say you are using what the game states. Well, the game states that Hyne was a Sorcerer, while you are arguing that he was(or is) a God. You call me hasty, yet you are the one contradicting yourself.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:14:45 PM | Message DetailAnd for the last time:

The theory started in Japan, only weeks after the game came out! All other theories and fanfics come from the theories made in Japan!!!

---

"Don't be hasty"From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:16:32 PM | Message DetailAfini, look up Hyne and Sorceresses and Sorceress Powers in the information section of the tutorial please. It clearly says that Hyne was a Sorcerer and the powers that the current Sorceresses have are a small portion of his that have been passed down.

BTW if anybody wants a real picture of Ultimecia and a real one of Rinoa from the ending FMV just toss out your email address on here, I can send it to you.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:25:18 PM | Message DetailOops, actually cancel that thing about Ultimecia and Rinoa's pictures. The software that can extract out those frames for me is on my other machine, which doesn't want to recognize it's hard drive at the moment. So you can see where that is a problem.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:26:01 PM | Message DetailI think that Rinoa is kind of Asian looking, especially her eyes,which Ulti is not at all.

And for the eyes changing colors, it could be possible as Edea in her sorceress form has yellow/golden eyes too. Maybe when you are corrupted by your powers, your eyes take an evil look. After all, Ulti has two horns, Edea has a kind of shell and purple veins on a side of her face.Maybe Rioa, now as the most powerful sorceress on earth, will change her appearance too...and may end up looking like Ulti. That is if she becomes evil, since Edea in the past orphanage was already a sorceress,but wasn't strange looking at all...

And NO, the theory didn't come from the fanfic.But the theory is biased too, that's why i'm making a FAQ,to have an non-biased research on this theory.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page,

First Page | Previous Page | Page 23 of 25 | Next Page | Last PageFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:27:35 PM | Message Detailnow as the most powerful sorceress on earth, will change her appearance too...and may end up looking like Ulti.

Yes, I knew this, but I wanted to see if Tricky here had an explanation.

---"Don't be hasty"From: rapap | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:45:54 PM | Message Detail


Does anyone know if Ultimecia's first form is given some kind of accent in her speech similar to the American version (eg "kurse all SeeDs) in other laguage versions? I found it odd that the accent is lost when you fight her final form.---"...There is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men" -Mon Singor, Opening Scene, The Boondock SaintsFrom: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/13/2003 2:47:27 PM | Message DetailSorry about the problem with the software, I found what I was looking for after all. I have some good shots of Rinoa and Ulti from the ending now if anyone wants them.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/13/2003 3:04:59 PM | Message Detailrapap

Actually,i learned that Ultimecia had a german/russian accent by reading the english script. In the french version,she talks absolutly normally,with no accent at all. But there is no word with "c" that you can convert in "k".Like "Kurse all SeeDs!" translate in "SeeDs,soyez maudit!"("SeeDs,be cursed" literally),so maybe they couldn't incorporate any accent...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Anfini | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:44:14 PM | Message DetailI never said that Hyne wasn't a sorceress. I only said that he is a god. Is it that impossible for him to be both? If it is, then he would be a god and not a sorceress, due to the quote that I offered above. And whoever told me to check the Information section clearly isn't understanding my posts, or just isn't reading them.

Anyway, I never said that I didn't trust your word, I just believe you to be filling in some things in your head. This descendant business, to my knowledge, is only mentioned twice. Once at the Ragnarok, and the other where it says that calling a sorceress a descendant shows respect, not power.

And finally, despite what Disney movies tell us, becoming evil doesn't warp and change your appearance.

---AnfiniFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/13/2003 6:53:16 PM | Message DetailI never said that Hyne wasn't a sorceress. I only said that he is a god. Is it that impossible for him to be both?

No, it is not. But seeing that the game specifically calls him a Sorcerer, one cannot then come with assumptions like this and present them as an argument. Of course, you, and anyone, are free to believe that Hyne is a God, but it cannot be used in this argument.

Anyway, I never said that I didn't trust your word, I just believe you to be filling in

some things in your head.

You might of course be correct here, I do not deny the fact that I may have filled in blanks in my head, then after time, come to think of them as 100% ingame proof. IF it turns out that this is indeed the truth, then I am dreadfully sorry, and I can only hope you have the understanding and mercy to forgive me.

Anyway, I have forgotten really what this argumnet was all about. Why does it really matter if Hyne is God or Sorcerer? Please forgive my memory, but my mind is loaded with other things, as well as trying to argue on here.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Anfini | Posted: 7/13/2003 10:06:36 PM | Message DetailThe best part about arguing is forgetting why you started. =]

Hyne being a god, sorceress, or both has no bearing on what we were arguing about before. It just came up, I guess. Anyway, Hyne was immortal. Sorceresses are not. Hyne created mankind. It doesn't really matter if it's actually stated in the game, but as far as I'm concerned, an immortal that creates man is a god.

---AnfiniFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/13/2003 11:36:48 PM | Message DetailI seemed to miss the whole section of the game that mentions Hyne, where is that?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: GreatAnubis | Posted: 7/14/2003 12:11:31 AM | Message DetailThere are bits and pieces scattered about. The old man living next to Zell's mom talks about Hyne the first time you go to Balamb, that's the biggest piece of info.

Also there is a section on Hyne in the information part of the tutorial.---"Soy el rey de esponga." - Earthworm JimFrom: lmrawlins | Posted: 7/14/2003 12:55:14 AM | Message DetailThe biggest part about the Hyne story is found on the White SeeD Ship on Disc 3, when you talk to the female officer at the entrance. I believe there is a website that has screenshots of this, which I am sure all of you are aware and can post for anyone.

By the way, this is a most interesting thread! Can't say I've been disappointed by your joint efforts yet!---umi.z || freelance writer/proofreader extraordinaireFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/14/2003 9:37:32 AM | Message DetailHyne was immortal. Sorceresses are not.

I'm sorry, but saying something like this is just as bad as what TrickyAZNN did.But anyway, enough of this discussion.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/15/2003 12:39:27 PM | Message DetailJust a bump so the topic don't get eat by the purge monster...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/16/2003 6:38:25 AM | Message DetailAny contribution?---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: ragnarok5743 | Posted: 7/16/2003 6:41:19 AM | Message DetailContribution to what?---Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies.It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us.From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/16/2003 7:28:09 AM | Message DetailI think its hit a dead spell for the moment.

Hey! I'm in my classroom at BROWN COLLEGE right now!---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/16/2003 8:43:38 AM | Message DetailI've been fairly busy lately but I'll have my bit finished as soon as possible.

---"Don't be hasty"From: dogbert | Posted: 7/16/2003 6:29:44 PM | Message Detailwhat i dont understand, is, IF rinoa was ultimecia, and she was sad that squall died and she didnt... wouldnt she be more likely to kill herself to be with squall? why would she want to live forever without squall?From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/16/2003 8:56:27 PM | Message DetailAlright, I'm here to say my two cents, and I'm quite frugal, so grab a soda or two.

(SPOILERS OF FF8 AND FF7 IN THIS POST!!!)********

**

First off, on this last bit about Hyne. If he was at all important to the game, he would have been mentioned a little more explicitly. As is, he's a speculatory case at best in the involvement of the game. I don't care what who said about anything, because first off, the guy next to Zell's house is just that, the guy next to Zell's house. I never saw his prophetic credentials. Realistically, this is probably just something the writers/developers wrote in and didn't have time to finish tying in all the way, much like Aeris's (or Aerith, if you prefer) story arc (whatever it was supposed to be, it's another topic and not to be argued here. Just agree that there were holes in that plot and move on with me). So we'll just leave Hyne to the birds, shall we?

Now, with the meat of this, there's WAY too many holes. First off, any ideas that Rinoa could survive to be Ultimecia are just ideas, as it's neither confirmed nor denied. Heck, if Ultimecia can compress time itself, why not just assume Rinoa just jumped into the future someday when she just went crazy? I'll tell you why. There's NO JUSTIFICATION! You're sharing your little wet dream with the world and it's not pretty, so just keep it to yourself unless you have some sort of proof beyond an old man mentioning it in passing.

Moving right along, Assuming she was (which is quite an assumption) there's a lot of psychological missives. There's be more of a connection with Squall, probably some mention in the castle scene, and DEFINITELY some sort of foreshadowing, either earlier in the game, or mention in the ending (like the "500 years later" scene in FF7 left a lot open for speculation. FF8 had nothing of the sort. It tied loose ends, it didn't create them).

So where's all the evidence? I'm not saying it's not true, as with a hop, skip and a flight to the moon, you've got yourself a crackpot storyline. I'm just saying that it's WAY too far fetched to be screaming about on a popular internet forum. Wait until you have a warrant to make the arrest, ok kiddies?

-TodPunkElitist bastard.From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/16/2003 9:01:30 PM | Message DetailAlright, I'm here to say my two cents, and I'm quite frugal, so grab a soda or two.

(SPOILERS OF FF8 AND FF7 IN THIS POST!!!)**********

First off, on this last bit about Hyne. If he was at all important to the game, he would have been mentioned a little more explicitly. As is, he's a speculatory case at best in the involvement of the game. I don't care what who said about anything, because first off, the guy next to Zell's house is just that, the guy next to Zell's house. I never saw his prophetic credentials. Realistically, this is probably just something the writers/developers wrote in and didn't have time to finish tying in all the way, much like Aeris's (or Aerith, if you prefer) story arc (whatever it was supposed to be, it's another topic and not to be argued here. Just agree that there were holes in that plot and move on with me). So we'll just leave Hyne to the birds, shall we?

Now, with the meat of this, there's WAY too many holes. First off, any ideas that Rinoa could survive to be Ultimecia are just ideas, as it's neither confirmed nor denied. Heck, if Ultimecia can compress time itself, why not just assume Rinoa just jumped into the future someday when she just went crazy? I'll tell you why. There's NO JUSTIFICATION! You're sharing your little wet dream with the world and it's not pretty, so just keep it to yourself unless you have some sort of proof beyond an old man mentioning it in passing.

Moving right along, Assuming she was (which is quite an assumption) there's a lot of psychological missives. There's be more of a connection with Squall, probably some mention in the castle scene, and DEFINITELY some sort of foreshadowing, either earlier in the game, or mention in the ending (like the "500 years later" scene in FF7 left a lot open for speculation. FF8 had nothing of the sort. It tied loose ends, it didn't create them).

So where's all the evidence? I'm not saying it's not true, as with a hop, skip and a flight to the moon, you've got yourself a crackpot storyline. I'm just saying that it's WAY too far fetched to be screaming about on a popular internet forum. Wait until you have a warrant to make the arrest, ok kiddies?

-TodPunkElitist bastard.From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/16/2003 9:05:52 PM | Message DetailGAH!!! Darn you dual ISDN LINE!!! You are my BANE!!!!Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page, but

First Page | Previous Page | Page 24 of 25 | Last PageFrom: Geasha | Posted: 7/16/2003 10:35:21 PM | Message Detaileeeeeeeerrrrrrr........we're not screaming "Rinoa IS Ultimecia! Come on people believe us!We're just here to study this theory. I'm on this topic and i don't think she is Ulti...

And the fact that there are many hints in the game that it could be possible:

Rinoa: WILL I END UP FIGHTING EVERYONE? Scary though,isn't it?Squall: even if you end up as THE WORLD'S ENNEMY,i'll...i'll be your knight...


-----Rinoa: Maybe i could become a lion too?

Who becomes a lion when junctioning Griever? Ultimecia. The song that plays during this fight is called "Maybe i'm a lion"....

If you have bothered reading the whole topic, you noicd all those little bits of dialogue...coincidences?---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 3:49:09 AM | Message Detailbut like i stated before. it just doesnt make sense at all. for the theory to even work, rinoa would need two things, motive, and means.

she probably doesnt have the means. she probably cant live forever. it wasnt stated that she could. immortality was just something that was created out of thin air. sure edea looks rather young in the ending sequence. being a goth chick can do that for you. since it cant be proven either way, i will just say she PROBABLY doesnt have the means.

she doesnt have the motive. there is NO REASON why rinoa would want to compress time. if she was so heart broken over the fact that squall died, why would she wait a few generations and then go crazy and decide she wants to live forever without him? it doesnt make any sense at all. since ultimecia was called "a sorceress many generations in the future" that means that squall would have died... and she would just sit around for a few hundred years and then said.. why dont i go and compress time.

why would a wookie live on endor? it just DOESNT MAKE SENSE!! if the griever ring dont fit, you must acquit.From: Hyne | Posted: 7/17/2003 4:51:45 AM | Message DetailThe evidence is just too shaky to be true, but if someone can come up with 1 more piece of evidence i'd probably believeFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 6:00:56 AM | Message DetailListen people:

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE BACKING UP RINOA = ULTIMECIA, BUT SEEING IT IS NEVER DISPROVED, IT CAN BE EITHER CASE!

FOR YOU SAYING SORCERESS IMMORTALITY IS A WET DREAM AND SUCH, I CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT NORMAL LIFESPAN FOR A SORCERESS.

FOR THE ONE THAT SAID RINOA WOULD HAVE NO PROOF, PLEASE STOP AND THINK, OR PERHAPS READ THE TOPIC.

Basically, seeing as "Rinoa = Ultimecia" and "Rinoa =/= Ultimecia" are not PROVEN all one can do is try and bring up as good an argument as possible.

And last time I checked, "omg it's just a wet dream" wasn't much of an argument.

QED

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/17/2003 10:09:55 AM | Message DetailFeeling a little bitter today Bahamut?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 10:30:07 AM | Message DetailA tad bit.

---"Don't be hasty"From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 11:56:30 AM | Message Detaili thought i just proved that rinoa couldnt be ultimecia because there is no reason for her to do so. there is probably a better chance that, down the road when rinoas powers reached ultimecia, that ulti took with those powers her memories. i think that would make more sense.

see, now, one might argue that rinoa became ultimecia because she knew that squall would come and fight her... however, if she really sad that squall died she would have done so right after the death. or maybe a few years. not many generations.

in my mind, the only thing that doesnt add up is the griever. a sorceress cant read minds right? then how would she know what is in squalls mind? hmmmmm like i said before, maybe when rinoas powers were passed on ultimecia got her memories of squall saying how powerful a lion is.

*shrug*From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/17/2003 12:31:36 PM | Message DetailI suppose that some of us here need an explanation of what a wet dream is. No, no, I'm not talking about anything sexual here. Metaphorically, I'm only saying:

Rinoa being Ultimecia, while possibly hinted at (if you look at the hints in that drunken stupor of yours), still is just a little boy getting all excited over something that doesn't have any bearing, proof, or necessity. Like Dogbert has said (three times, now, I believe) it just doesn't make sense. Like I'm saying, it doesn't need to. There's just no reason to have it one way or the other. If she is, or isn't, it doesn't change the story at all.

And no, I don't care how old you are. Keep it to yourself. You're still just a whiny little boy to me, at least in the maturity category.

Typing in all caps is as bad as whining "Zelda: more like Cel-da". You probably

laughed at that... again.

-TodPunkFrom: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/17/2003 1:11:50 PM | Message DetailHave you two actually followed this topic at all?---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 1:53:01 PM | Message Detailactually i have been following the thread. sure a missed a few pages. but when i left it was an arguement over if a sorceress could have immortality (i even posted on the subject in one of the earlier pages), and when i got back its the same thing.

even if i didnt read a single page, i am just stating that i think it is impossible for rinoa to be ultimecia. if you want to give me proof that counters my "no motive theory" thats one thing. so say "did you even READ any pages", that borderlines stupid. From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/17/2003 2:22:56 PM | Message DetailThis topic is getting anal again.

Everyone calm down and back off.

Dogbert, in the opening it was theorized that Rinoa would have outlived Squall, watched him die, and becom horridly depressed. That drove her to darkness, at least that's the theory.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 2:30:17 PM | Message Detailyou arent getting it. i READ that part. it doesnt make sense. people who are depressed dont want to live forever. they want to kill themselves.

thats why the whole theory doesnt make sense because it is based on a motive that goes against all logicFrom: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 3:34:22 PM | Message DetailI suppose that some of us here need an explanation of what a wet dream is. No, no, I'm not talking about anything sexual here.

What? You have to be joking! <sarcasm/>.

still is just a little boy getting all excited over something that doesn't have any bearing, proof, or necessity.

Firstly, if you had followed this topic you would know I am 100% neutral in this.

Now, proof. There is no proof on the other side. No necessity? One of the main characters also being the main evil is irrelevant in the game?

Like Dogbert has said (three times, now, I believe) it just doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense once as long as you start thinking hard enough. However, which way your mind will tilt in the end is something that eahc individual player will have to decide on.

If she is, or isn't, it doesn't change the story at all.

Oh gee, you're right. Going through the game knowing that that Rinoa will become Ultimecia and strive to kill you all doesn't change the way you think of the game at all.

And no, I don't care how old you are.

Who on earth are you talking to here? I never asked you if you wanted to know my age, if you were talking to me.

Typing in all caps is as bad as whining "Zelda: more like Cel-da". You probably laughed at that... again.

Oh, so you WERE talking to me. Then , I must ask you for a quote on where I asked you if you wanted to know my age.

Then I must apologize for the writing in caps, I have been overloaded with work lately, and you and Dogbert coming in here this late in the topic spouting nonsense that "it doesn't make sense, it doesn't change anything..repeat Ad Naseum". I guess it was the final drop.

Now, for Dogbert:

You say she has no motive, well how about this:

Rinao and Squall live together, love eachother etc., but thenSquall dies. This causes Rinoa to go mad after a long time,and in the end, she feels that if she can't have love, no onecan.

And that is just one of the motives.

---"Don't be hasty"From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 4:39:35 PM | Message Detailhmmm perhaps. it IS possible that rinoa could go mad and want to compress time so that nobody else could be happy. sure.

however, still isnt ultimecia a sorceress from many generations in the future? this would mean that she would be normal for hundreds of years and then just finally snap.

i dont think that they are the same person just because of human nature. perhaps they

are the same person, but if they are... it just wouldnt make sense to me.From: Rinoa Leonheart | Posted: 7/17/2003 4:42:46 PM | Message DetailI dunno if this comment has been made yet. I don't feel like looking at each message but anyway, why the heck would Rinoa go back in the past on kill herself??? We see that she just leaves Rinoa to die in space. What would that accomplish if she had killed herself in the past because that would mean she would be dead in the future.---"Damn! You ugly!"---Zidane to a monster "Final Fantasy IX"From: Rinoa Leonheart | Posted: 7/17/2003 4:46:42 PM | Message DetailI do believe Ultimecia could be a descendent of Rinoa.---"Damn! You ugly!"---Zidane to a monster "Final Fantasy IX"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 4:59:48 PM | Message Detailthis would mean that she would be normal for hundreds of years and then just finally snap.

No, it would buil gradually, like Cancer. Slowly spread thorugh her body until she finally "dies".

What would that accomplish if she had killed herself in the past because that would mean she would be dead in the future.

Ok, firstly, know that if they are the same person, Rinoa could never be killed during the game.

Knowing this, we are presented with two choices:

1) Ultimecia/Rinoa knows this, and thus lets her drift off.This however is rather improbable.

2) Ultimecia can remember Squall catching her, and thus can safely let herself drift off. Note, that this paradox is possible, but very difficult to grasp, but try and think about it hard enough and you'll get it.

3) The GF's she gets from SeeD(not Griever) cause her to lose memory, and together with her lost sanity she does not realize her actions.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SeraphicRadiance007 | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:19:07 PM | Message DetailI've a question, if she is Ultimecia is Rinoa, how did she pick up that accent?

If this has already been asked/answered, my apologies. I don't feel like going through 450+ posts you know? -.----_____________ _ _ /_\\/_\\/_____//Seraphic Radiance\_//\_//_//From: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:21:15 PM | Message Detailso, you think that she was depressed for hundreds of years before she decided to

snap?

the GF thing is interesting. if she DID lose her memory of squall though, that would make many of the other points invalid. the griever connection, the orphanage, the stuff she says at the end of the battle. it would lose its connection. and if you believe that she lost her memory, wouldnt that make it easy to believe that they are different people?

so either1) rinoa + lost memory = ultimecia2) rinoa =\=ultimecia

im betting on #2From: Rinoa Leonheart | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:28:50 PM | Message DetailHe's my theory: Someone was ultra bored and decided to make up the Rinoa being Ultimecia thing. I mean we may as well say Adel is Rinoa's grandmother!

SeeD is trained to defeat sorceresses so Ultimecia was probably ultra ticked off at that idea and want the get rid of as many as she could.

And would about the thing with Ultimecia being able to send her consciousness to the past? Maybe she's a descendent of Ellone? I never really paid too much attention to that detail.---"Damn! You ugly!"---Zidane to a monster "Final Fantasy IX"Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25


This Topic has been marked closed. No additional messages may be posted.First Page | Previous Page | Page 25 of 25

From: Rinoa Leonheart | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:31:50 PM | Message DetailExcuse my typos.---"Damn! You ugly!"---Zidane to a monster "Final Fantasy IX"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:33:57 PM | Message DetailI've a question, if she is Ultimecia is Rinoa, how did she pick up that accent?

Yesh, the difference in appearance is a good point against it. Only explanation one can offer is that as her soul twists, so does her appearance.

so, you think that she was depressed for hundreds of years before she decided to snap?

Do not confuse generations with centuries. A generation is only about 25-30 years(the difference in age between a father and his son).


the griever connection, the orphanage, the stuff she says at the end of the battle. it would lose its connection

Sadly, yes.

and if you believe that she lost her memory, wouldnt that make it easy to believe that they are different people?

IF you mean that this would make it just as probable that she is just another person, then yes.

so either1) rinoa + lost memory = ultimecia2) rinoa =\=ultimecia

No, there are the other options to think of. That she could have remembered her past etc.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/17/2003 5:42:17 PM | Message DetailSomeone was ultra bored and decided to make up the Rinoa being Ultimecia thing.

Change ultra bored with "got a sudden flash of isnpiration" and you've probably nailed it.

I mean we may as well say Adel is Rinoa's grandmother!

Don't be ridiculous. This topic has lasted so long with only intelligent discussions, and I don't want some idiot coming in here wrecking it.

SeeD is trained to defeat sorceresses so Ultimecia was probably ultra ticked off at that idea and want the get rid of as many as she could.

Yes, if you belive Rinoa=/=Ultimecia, than this would be the motive.

And would about the thing with Ultimecia being able to send her consciousness to the past?

Ultimecia uses Dr. Odines mahcine to get back to the past, not her own Sorceress powers.

---"Don't be hasty"From: MightyCat | Posted: 7/17/2003 7:39:11 PM | Message DetailHmm.....those of you who know Japanese will probably find this interesting.

http://white.moon.ne.jp/egg/heart/chara/ultimecia.html---

http://bun-bun.blogspot.comFrom: dogbert | Posted: 7/17/2003 8:03:15 PM | Message Detailwell the reason why i said hundreds of years was because it said many generations. so i figured if its "many" then what if its 10 generations. thats 300 years that she just sits there. From: Geasha | Posted: 7/17/2003 8:20:01 PM | Message DetailUlti could have lost her memory while junctionning Griever,as it would be the only thing she had to remember Squall.The ring she gave her.But she's still UNCONSCIOUSLY Rinoa,and thus build her castle where they promised.She just doesn't know why she chose that place.---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Geasha | Posted: 7/17/2003 8:27:57 PM | Message DetailAnd the accent is only in the US version,and it's not even in her last speech.So she talks with an accent before the fight,and in her last form she suddenly lost it!---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/18/2003 4:31:26 AM | Message DetailDamn I wish I read Japanese know. Can anyone translate? It would be greatly appreciated.

---"Don't be hasty"From: Geasha | Posted: 7/18/2003 4:51:11 AM | Message DetailMightyCat,please translation! I'm learning japanese but i'm not good enough to read this...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: TodPunk | Posted: 7/18/2003 3:22:43 PM | Message Detailher last speech loses the accent, probably because she had no mouth or vocal chords, for that matter. I mean, her head was an energy ball.

As for not having the accent in japanese, how are you going to have an accent in japanese? In english, you can mess up the characters in a word, in Japanese, the hiragana or katakana pretty much stays the same, no matter how you actually say it.

And no, Sir Bahamut, you didn't ask for my age, so you can rest assured I pulled that out of the air, much like the originator of this pathetic theory. I'll agree with you that you would look at the game differently if you knew she was going to become Ulty, but even then, Ulty is a different person (for whatever reason you want to come up with). The point is mute. Different people, same soul? Doesn't really matter. Rinoa wouldn't really ever want time to compress.

and yes, I did read the entire thread. Oh how I wish I had those precious minutes of my life back. IF this were true, like I said, it wouldn't change the story at all. The light hints can still be taken either way, the path Rinoa takes is still with the same motive, and the feelings between her and Squall are still with the same validity and fervor. Don't tell me you're neutral when you argue for the theory. I'm perfectly willing to give it it's due, but that's not much. So technically, I'm more of a devil's advocate than you.

-TodPunkFrom: Opassa | Posted: 7/18/2003 3:39:53 PM | Message DetailIm not sure if anyone said this before in this topic, cuz I only read page 1 and this page, but when was the orphanage occupied by Squall, Zell, Seifer, etc? I dont remember, but Im guessing about 14 years beforehand. In the end, it showed Edea in her normal clothes/not the sorcerress clothes at balamb garden. To me, she looks like she hasnt aged a bit since the orphanage years. Im not sure if she did or not, but maybe thats proof that sorcerresses dont age as fast. I dont support the Ultimecia = Rinoa theory either, but there ARE some good points.

Then again, I have absolutely NO clue. Im still confused about the ending.

PS-I thought about Laguna being Squall's father, but I couldnt think of any good points. Anyone else have any?From: Geasha | Posted: 7/18/2003 3:46:42 PM | Message DetailI was not talking about accent in the jap version, but in the french and italian version. I don't know about other languages but i assume that the accent is only in the US version, and for the 1st half of the speech.

I must save this topic before it reaches 500...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: Sir Bahamut | Posted: 7/18/2003 4:21:45 PM | Message DetailUlty is a different person (for whatever reason you want to come up with).

Yes, this is true. As you said, same soul different mind...

Rinoa wouldn't really ever want time to compress.

Not as you see her during the game no(unless you count Ultiemcia as seeing Rinoa), but in the aftermath, something might have happened, like the theory I scribbled up just now.

IF this were true, like I said, it wouldn't change the story at all. T

No of course not. It's not like there will come extra dialogue when you start believing they are the same person. It's simply your view that changes.

The light hints can still be taken either way, the path Rinoa takes is still with the same

motive, and the feelings between her and Squall are still with the same validity and fervor.

I concur.

Don't tell me you're neutral when you argue for the theory.

Well, if you had actually read the topic(as you claim) then you would have seen that I argue against every point given. Pro Theory and Anti Theory, I have always argued.

So technically, I'm more of a devil's advocate than you.

No, because i argue against both sides, while your view is that Rinoa would never compress time, and never do this etc., meaning you have already made your opinion. I have not.

To me, she looks like she hasnt aged a bit since the orphanage years. Im not sure if she did or not, but maybe thats proof that sorcerresses dont age as fast.

Yes, it is possible. But then again, she could just have a natural young look, or be very good at taking care of herslef etc.

PS-I thought about Laguna being Squall's father, but I couldnt think of any good points. Anyone else have any?

This is correct. Laguna IS Squalls father. There's a bunch of evidence, and if you really want to know them, just make a topic.

---"Don't be hasty"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/18/2003 6:51:06 PM | Message DetailGonna have to make a new topic soon.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Rinoa Leonheart | Posted: 7/20/2003 10:48:08 AM | Message DetailDon't be ridiculous. This topic has lasted so long with only intelligent discussions, and I don't want some idiot coming in here wrecking it.

Excuse me?! I have a right to my opinion you know. If you all can go on and on saying "Rinoa is Ultimecia" then I can give my reasons is to why she's not.

For one thing. how the heck can a human live for hundreds of years huh?

"She may have been a sorceress, but she's still human." Human not immortal.

And another thing, Rinoa said "My powers will pass down from generation to generation." which means Rinoa died some time later and she gave her powers to someone who gave her powers to someone else which eventually reached Ultimecia.

Those are my opinions and my theories and I have a right to say them if no one likes it that's too dang bad!

---"Damn! You ugly!"---Zidane to a monster "Final Fantasy IX"From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/20/2003 7:57:54 PM | Message DetailRinoa said "My powers will pass down from generation to generation."

Don't you be ridiculous. Rinoa said this during the game. She doesn't know the future, only stating something by what she believes will happen.

And i think you're getting a little personal. Don't let Bahamut's posts get to you. Sure he's an ass at points, but he's been one of the best contributers thus far, which you would know if you read through all of this.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: SideswipeZulu | Posted: 7/20/2003 8:05:25 PM | Message DetailOne other thing.

If Rinoa was Ultimecia then she could never die during the game. And she doesn't. If your party is wiped out then it displays game over, which isn't supposed to happen in the story. Rinoa never dies during the story, so she can live on and become Ultimecia.

And I did not just get bored and decide to start this. That's just rude.---Char's Counterattack: The Last Stand of Neo Zeonhttp://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1401810From: Geasha | Posted: 7/20/2003 8:34:05 PM | Message DetailI saved the whole topic,since i assume some random dude will make the last posts just to bring it to 500.

i've been busy lately and wasn't able to goes further in the faq.Sure that in summer you wouldn't stay home writing!

Well,till then...---"People tell me I'm the goddess of revenge...But I don't know what I'm supposed to do.Can you help me out?" Persona 2From: triKy AzNNN | Posted: 7/20/2003 9:02:43 PM | Message DetailIf Ulty is not Rinoa, and she is from hundreds of years in the future, why would she want to compress time? What is the point? There isn't any, except causing mass confusion, and why would she even want to waste her time doing that? Do you think Square would just throw in Ulty as the final boss who just wanted to compress time because... she wanted to compress time? Ulty is Rinoa. Is it not enough that at the end fmv it shows her face flashing like a hundred times, and then Ulty's face in a blink of an eye? Or what about the white wing/black wing, griever, etc? Or how about them looking practically the same? It goes on and on.

You think Square just threw all this in for no reason, but to just play with our minds? And I agree with the other person who said that Ulty (Rinoa) could have also lost her memory because of junctioning Griever, which is the only memory she had of Squall. It's a combination of that and the fact that she had to live alone for generations. She compressed time to see Squall again. Why do they fight? Obviously because 1: She has gone a little.. crazy over the long years, 2: Her memory of Squall and the other guys by then would be pretty thin, and 3: Griever would screw up her memory even more, practically forgetting what Squall looks like, how he talks, etc. ---"Ze..no..ga..i..s" - Cloud From: mathfreq | Posted: 7/20/2003 9:15:50 PM | Message DetailI can't believe this topic is still open. Ultimecia is not Rinoa.---mathfreqSelf proclaimed defender of the downtrodden and marker of flamers.Jump to Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 |

20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25

Copyright 1995-2003 GameFAQsFeel free to link to this page, but not directly to the

END OF TOPIC NUMBER 1.


rinoa=ultimecia part 1

Documents

pm message

rinoa theory

ring squall

griever isnt

symbolism of grief

dont sleep

sorceresses dont

theory im