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Thu May 29, 2014 12:49 pmCPT19110

Familiar FacePosts: 160Joined: Wed Sep 18, 201310:05 amLocation: Texas

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Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)I haven't seen much discussion of 4-wheel locks in this forum so I thoughtyou might find a 4-wheel post interesting.

S&G 6731 4-Wheel Group 2

Design: The 4-wheelers I have been working with are both S&G 6731's. Thisis simply their 6730 with an additional wheel stuffed in there. I think thatthere is something "cooler" about a 4-wheel lock that goes beyond justbeing "different" from what I am used to. I am not an expert in lock history,but it seems that the 4 and even 5-wheel locks harken back to safes 100+years ago. The difference between the 4-wheel and 3-wheel is immediatelynoticeable by the increased thickness of the lock body. The back issignificantly thicker and adds the volume required to make room for theadditional wheel.

A 3-wheel 6730 (left) vs. 4-wheel 6731 (right)

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Thick stack! (left). The 4-wheel's thicker back makes room for the extrawheel (right)

Security: Because of the increased number of spins (and it can get a littleconfusing!), I initially questioned the value of a 4-wheel Group 2 versus a 3-wheel 2M or Group 1 in today's market. Why sell a 4-wheel Group 2 when a3-wheel 2M or Group 1 is much harder to manipulate open? I assume it isbecause of the threat of the autodialer. While a 3-wheel lock theoreticallyhas 1 million possibilities, a 4-wheel theoretically has 100 MILLIONpossibilities! So besides the cool factor of the 4-wheel, it clearly offerssignificantly greater resistance to the autodialer.

Dialing Sequence: The 6731 dialing sequence is 5R, 4L, 3R, 2L, right todrop in. After the first wheel is set, you can basically think of it like a regular3-wheel lock. The 4-wheel is GREAT for training you to park wheels and keeptrack of things in your head. For me, this is the most enjoyable aspect. Itgets particularly tricky when you start parking multiple wheels in onedirection. Imagine the following sequence: R11- L35 - L22 - L46. Lot's ofextra dialing!

Strategy: I have found that my 4-wheel locks are more consistent aboutgiving up more than one gate on a single AWx spin. Whereas I have very few3-wheel locks that will read two gates on one graph, the 4-wheelsconsistently read two, even after many combo trials. As you will seemomentarily, this one actually read all 4-wheels in two graphs! No bruteforce necessary! That's never happened before, and it made it an evencooler open that I am excited to share! On that point, if ever there was atime when it is better NOT to brute force the first wheel, this is it! Thank yourlucky stars if you can find W1 in your graphing, because brute forcing wheelone = wrist pain. One other point on finding the correct wheel for each gate:Hi/Low testing has worked MUCH more consistently for me on the 4-wheellocks than the 3-wheelers. I have a few theories on why, but they are justtheories. The good news is this seems to be a pretty consistent rule on the4-wheel. This one was opened without any complex wheel isolation work.

Note: Everyone knows I hate graphing, but recently I've run accross locks that Isimply cannot keep track of in my head. That got me looking for a better way tograph. Anyway, I've started using Excel and letting it do the work for me. It also

makes it much easier to make changes, fix things, etc. Hope you guys don't mind thegraph screenshots! I also don't have Oldfast's crazy neat handwriting!

Search 1: AWLPurpose: Find initial gate indication(s)

I chose an AWL approach for this lock. I had just mounted it and this was myfirst attempt at manipulating this particular S&G 6731. I was excited to see ifit behaved like the other S&G 6731 in my collection.

I was very pleased by this first graph. It was very clear that I had a gate atL46 and L22. The other drop-offs seemed like they might indicate a gate,but for now, I was happy to do a Hi/Low for these first two indications andhopefully move forward with two confirmed gates.

4-wheel Hi/Lows are fun. Like I said, you get good at keeping track of thenumber of spins you've completed and where the gates are parked.

Unmistakable, text book indication for W4 at L46. LOVE doing Hi/Lows on the4-wheel! Now for L22...

Again, a clean result for W3 at L22. I converted this to R20.5 as it will bedialed right when testing combos.

So Far: Rx - Lx - R20.5 - L46

Search 2: W1 & W2 LA, W3 R20.5, W4 L46Purpose: Find a gate on W1, W2, or both

There is a debate on whether it is better to move one wheel or two wheelswhen starting the second graph. For example, on a 3-wheel lock, if you havea known gate at W3=L50, some folks would go W1 & W2 RA, W3 L50, otherswould park W1 at L50 and search W2 by itself. On the one hand, parking W1removes the additional variable that it adds to your readings, and ensuresthat any gate you find will belong to W2. On the other hand, it is possiblethat W1 should read next, or creates a large shadow at L50 that hides W2anyway. Not sure if one is truly better than the other, but I typically start outmoving two wheels together. If I don't find anything, I park W1 at the lowestpoint I found during that search, and search W2 again. Seems to work forme. In this case, I moved W1 and W2 together and it paid off bigtime!

The only problem with this graph is that it appeared to have four gatesinstead of two! I was pretty puzzled by this and was starting to question mysanity. It was about 1AM at this point so I truly think I was seeing gates thatweren't there. I dunno. The good news is that the real gates were the mostprominent. I started out by testing L11.

Thu May 29, 2014 1:04 pmflywheel

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Thu May 29, 2014 1:14 pmshadowlock0

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Fri May 30, 2014 7:36 amDaggers

This test suggested that L11 was on W1, but the other Hi/Lows were sodramatic that I decided it would be better to focus on the L35 indication. Iwasted some time testing some trial combos using L25 and L62, but wasn'tgetting anywhere. I decided to test L35 next.

BOOM! I didn't even do the Hi test because I knew I had my gate.

Almost there: Rx - L35 - R20.5 - L46

Normally, I would start bruteforcing if I had no other indications, but theghost gates on my second graph were beckoning too me. "Trevor," theysaid in a strange, high-pitched voice that was coming from my cat, "dosome trial combinations...you might not need to brute force us..." I noddedskeptically at that cat and began with L11 (R8) on W1.

OPEN: R8 - L35 - R20.5 - L46Really pleased with this one. I've never had all the gates come out in thegraph. As you've noticed, I've started using a manifying glass with amagnetic base and an LED light. It works wonders and I think it allows me topick up a lot more. Mine has a magnetic base so it can stick to a safe, but itcomes with the little metal clamp base which works perfectly on my lockstands.

Hope you enjoyed this one, because I sure did! Take care, fellas.

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Thank god the first number was 8 and not 98, but then again you're hearingvoices telling you what to try.Good job!

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Awesome post!...I really enjoyed it. Can't wait to be that skilled. Good jobbuddy. Hey! I really like that excel graph. Looks like it makes the grapheasier to read.

Rick

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

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Fri May 30, 2014 9:19 ammercurial0

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Fri May 30, 2014 12:16 pmCPT19110

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Fri May 30, 2014 12:33 pmSquelchtone0

Familiar FacePosts: 176Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:16pmLocation: Springfield MAUSA

Fri May 30, 2014 2:03 pmCPT19110

Familiar FacePosts: 160Joined: Wed Sep 18, 201310:05 amLocation: Texas

Fri May 30, 2014 8:18 pmOldfast

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Wow! Great post! Thank you for this! And great job on manipulating it too

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Great manipulation, well done & thanks for sharing!

My only 4 wheel lock is a big, heavy antique S&G roller bolt style, with agravity driven fence. It is well beyond my abilities at present. It has the mostsubtle & mushy contact points I've ever come across, by a LONG way, and ithas 'corrugated' wheel edges - there are shallow grooves, about as wide asthe fence, all the way around each wheel.

I have recently relocated & it is packed away. I will post gut shots, after I geta chance to unpack & clean the old beast.

On the subject of comparative security against autodiallers, I would agreethat a 4 wheel Group 2 lock would be seen as more secure than a 3 wheelGroup 1 lock - at least in the early days of autodialler technology becomingavailable.

However, the new generation of autodiallers, such as the Softdrill, wouldrender a 4 wheel Group 2 lock little more secure than a 3 wheel version ofthe same lock. Perhaps the fairly recently designed Group 2M locks,specifically the LaGard & the S&G are at least in part a direct response tothis threat? The Group 2M locks would force the Softdrill to resort to a bruteforce search of the wheel pack.

For those who haven't heard of it, the Softdrill is an 'intelligent' autodialler,that manipulates safe locks by using the same principles that people use,only much faster (than *most* people, Oldfast notwithstanding!).

...Mark

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Hi Mercurial,

Great response, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I saw a video of thesoftdrill in operation once, although I don't remember where. You are right--itmostly follows the same principles that we do in manipulation, although Ibelieve it carefully chooses the lowest possible point to park wheels notbeing tested. Very interesting!

Drag that old S&G 4-wheel out and open it for us!

Trevor

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Excellent post as always, very nicely done!

How do you make those very nice graphs on the computer? That can't bedone in Excel can it?!

congrats on the open, Squelchtone

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

Squelchtone wrote:How do you make those very nice graphs on the computer? Thatcan't be done in Excel can it?!

Hi Squelch! Yessir, all done in Excel. PM me if you want the source file. Samegoes for anyone else!

You have to make minor adjustments each time you use it, but the shell isthere for you if you want it.

Trevor

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

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Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:36 pmCPT19110

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OUTSTANDING! Absolutely LOVE the way you laid it out. BEAUTIFUL pics &graphs, really.

I was able to follow along as if I were right beside you. Very exciting. Stellarspinnin' my friend And I gotta say... I'm a bit jealous! I haven't spun a 4-wheel lock yet.Although, I once went 4-wheelin'on a 3-wheeler by mistake, HA! But that's about it. I look forward to it though& it's really nice to gainsome of your insight and experience for whenever I do finally get myself acouple of em'. Thanks!

" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)Well done Trevor! I have carefully read your post and enjoyed it very much.As Oldfast said, it was like seeing you spinning About your technique, I also like to move all wheels together at first, andthen park the first indicating one at its gate and move the other two (orthree) around.If wheel #2 indicates first, then I may check wheel #1 alone and park wheel#2 at his known gate and leave wheel #3 (and #4) there too. The reason isit's a lot faster dialing this way, I'm not afraid of hi-low tests.

Cheers

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)WOW Trevor, Great work! And the write up is excellent...very informative andentertaining to read all at the same time. I've never played with a fourwheeler before, and this is motivating me to try and get my hands on one. Ilove the graphing with excel too. I assume that cuts down on the time ittakes to graph? I'll have to send a PM to get the source file. Thanks formaking it available.

And thanks for posting the opening...very cool and interesting!

-Mike

I have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Beyond that, not so much.

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

image.jpg

Does this 4 wheel lock use indirect drive?

Looking at the picture of the 6730 back to back with the 6731, showing thedifference in thickness, the dials seem to be located in the same positionrelative to the lock casing, so I would assume the cams of both are directlydriven by the dial & spindle assembly. All 6700 series locks I have comeacross have been direct drive.

However, on closer inspection of one of the gut shots, I can see twointermeshing gears, one under the wheel pack & of similar diameter to thewheels, and another linked to it towards the left.

What are these cogs/gears?

...MarkYou do not have the required permiss ions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Let's go 4-wheelin' (S&G 6731)

mercurial wrote:However, on closer inspection of one of the gut shots, I can see twointermeshing gears, one under the wheel pack & of similar diameterto the wheels, and another linked to it towards the left.

What are these cogs/gears?

Hi Mercurial. Current production 6730, 6731, 6630, and 6631 (othersmaybe) use S&G's torque adjuster to maintain wheel pack tension. Whatyou are seeing is the edge of the geared plate that rests beneath the wheelpack. A small gear to the left (not visible) can be turned with an allen wrenchto adjust wheel pack tension. It's kind of an odd device--you sort of have tosee it to visualize how it works. Fundamentally, it replaces the tensionwasher you would find on 6741s and older 6700 series. Locks equipped withthe torque adjuster can be adjusted to run with very minimal dial friction anddialed very quickly. S&G has a spec for this adjustment, however, which Ithink is measured in inch-ounces LOL. Pretty lightly torqued, to say theleast.

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