Shmanners 272: Rock ConcertsPublished July 30, 2021

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Travis: [raspy rock singer voice] Are you ready to rock?!

Teresa: [calmly] Yes.

Travis: Okay! It's Shmanners! [imitates rock guitar]

[theme music plays]

Travis: Hello, internet! I'm your husband host, Travis McElroy.

Teresa: And I'm your wife host, Teresa McElroy.

Travis: And you've been listening—you've been listening? You are—

Teresa: You are listening.

Travis: —currently listening to Shmanners.

Teresa: It's extraordinary etiquette.

Travis: For ordinary occasions! Hello, my dove.

Teresa: Hello, dear.

Travis: How are you?

Teresa: Good! There's nothing like a guitar solo to wake a person up in themorning.

Travis: [squeakily imitates rock guitar]

Teresa: [laughs] Hey now, you have to be careful. We're gonna start gettingcopyright notices from Bill and Ted.

Travis: That's true.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Now, here's the thing that most people can't see, is when I airguitar—see, a lot of people when they air guitar, they just play the strings withtheir right hand—

Teresa: Uh-huh.

Travis: —and then they hold the frets with their left. But I tend to strum withboth hands, 'cause I don't know how to play guitar.

Teresa: Play it like a piano.

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like I'm strumming two simultaneousguitars that are stacked end-on-end.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Um, I am not a musician.

Teresa: Indeed.

Travis: That may surprise some people [fake laughter] But I do not play anyinstruments. But I do enjoy going to concerts.

Teresa: I would like to first tell my sad, sad story about concerts.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: And then you can tell some awesome stories about concerts.

Travis: Okay, great.

Teresa: I have asthma. Hello, my name is Teresa, and I have asthma.

Travis: Uh-huh, yeah, no, I know.

Teresa: And up until probably, what? Ten years ago...

Travis: Ohh, you couldn't attend because of smoking!

Teresa: Because of smoking! If there was smoking allowed, if it was an indoorevent, sometimes even if it was an outdoor event, um, I just couldn't handle thecigarette smoke. Um, and so my first memory of concerts is when all of myfriends in high school got tickets to go see the Pilfers?

Travis: I don't know who that is.

Teresa: It's a ska bad.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: Um—

Travis: Are you big into ska?

Teresa: I mean... I like to dance.

Travis: Were you out there—you were skanking?

Teresa: I can skank it.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: And so, uh, they went to go see Pilfers, and I couldn't go, because itwas at an indoor venue, and there were definitely gonna be—definitely gonna becigarette smoke there.

Um, and then the next time I went to a concert it was an outdoor area, which wasbetter. I saw Journey, with the new front guy.

Travis: I was with you!

Teresa: Yes! Yes, you were.

Travis: Yes, I was.

Teresa: And you were also with me when we went to Kentucky. We went to aSouthgate house which no longer exists, I think. Uh, remember? It was, like, kindof a basement-y place.

Travis: Yes. I don't remember what band we saw there.

Teresa: I don't remember what band we saw either, but I do know that we leftearly. Because, again, cigarette smoke.

Travis: There was smoking. We've seen Moody Blues in concert together too.

Teresa: We have. Uh, which was at Riverbend, right? So there was an indoor,outdoor-ish—

Travis: I just wanna say, none of these are making us sound super cool?

Teresa: I'm—I told you, sad story!

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: Sad story with Teresa and concerts.

Travis: I have some cool—I have—I don't know, cool to me. Maybe no one elsewill think they're cool. But, um, I saw in Oklahoma City Junior Senior opened forElectric Six, which if you like either of those bands you love those bands.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Uh, and I did not know hardly anything about them at the time. Um, andfor the Junior Senior section of it, everybody in the crowd just jumpedsimultaneously for the entire show. Like, in unison, just jumping up and down? Itwas awesome! It was one of the best energies ever.

Teresa: That's probably the best—like, the... mosh pit best that there could everbe, is everyone jumping up and down simultaneously.

Travis: Yeah, this was it, is like, I've been in mosh pits before.

Teresa: Yeah, and when people are not jumping together, that's when you gethurt. [laughs]

Travis: This was not a mosh pit. This was like something out of, like, a fullychoreographed dance number, where we were all on the beat. It was that song,"[singing] Go junior, go senior, go junior, junior, senior." And there's such a clearrhythm to it. Everybody was jumping in unison. Uh, I saw Elvis Costello openfor—uh, open for Bob Dylan. Uh, I saw Barenaked Ladies open for BenFolds—well, Better Than Ezra opened for Barenaked Ladies who opened for BenFolds. Uh, I also saw Ben Folds open for Rufus Wainwright. I also so Ben Folds,uh—

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: —at University of Oklahoma.

Teresa: Did you go to a lot of Ben Folds? Were you really into Ben Folds at thetime?

Travis: Griffin was really into Ben Folds, and so I knew a lot about Ben Folds.And Ben Folds is a good concert.

Teresa: Oh, yes.

Travis: It's a fun concert.

Teresa: Yes.

Travis: I've seen Styx in concert, I've seen Journey in concert, I've seen MoodyBlues in concert.

Teresa: Oh, we went to see Styx, didn't we?

Travis: Yes we did.

Teresa: Yeah! That was outside again.

Travis: But my first concert ever... and I'm sure that there were, like, things Iwent to, like, you know—I know I went to a Sharon, Lois, & Bram concert. Don'tget it twisted.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: And it was wild! Um—but, uh, the first concert I remember going to ofme being like, "I would like to go to this concert," is Tom Jones, and I think I was,like, 11, and Justin would've been 14.

Teresa: Wow.

Travis: And our parents dropped us off [crosstalk]—

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: —and, like, Mom and Dad just didn't want to go. And Justin and I had,like, front row seats in the balcony in Huntington, and we watched it there.

Teresa: Wow! I went to a B. B. King show, I would say, when I was in college. Itwas more like an orchestral concert type deal, where it was at a theater, andthere were—you know, everyone was seated the whole time, and... it wasn'treally a rock concert.

Travis: I've reached an age now where those are—I went to recently a FalloutBoy one, and I got—it was, like, an outdoor thing, and there were, like, twolevels, and I was able to, like, sit at a table and watch it. It was great. [laughs]

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: I loved that.

Teresa: That's what I loved about the Moody Blues concert.

Travis: So chill. So chill.

Teresa: [simultaneously] So chill.

Travis: Okay. I also at one point went to—it’s not rock at all, but I went and sawHarry Connick Jr.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: [crosstalk] It was a Christmas, like, concert, and every set—it wasamazing. Okay, but we're talking about rock concerts today.

Teresa: We are. And we also—

Travis: Starts with Beethoven.

Teresa: —may have regaled you with some of our—our fun times in Cleveland,hint, hint.

Travis: What?

Teresa: Cleveland. I'm gonna talk about... Cleve—

Travis: Oh, because it has the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

Teresa: Yes.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: Cleveland, I'm gonna talk a little bit about Cleveland, and it has theRock and Roll Hall of Fame because... I mean, a lot of reasons. But one of thereasons is because it is widely considered the birthplace of the rock and rollconcert.

Travis: Get out of the town.

Teresa: Totes.

Travis: Tell me about that. I had no idea. I thought it was just arbitrarily there.

Teresa: No.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: Cleveland. March 21st, 1952.

Travis: Do you think if someone else, like, in America, was like, "We're gonnaopen a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame." Is rock and roll gonna stop them? Like, whodecides if you're allowed to do that or not?

Teresa: [laughs] Uh, I—I don't know.

Travis: "As the President of rock and roll, I declare this to be an unofficial Rockand Roll Hall of Fame!" Okay, go on.

Teresa: It's probably trademarked by now. I mean, "The Rock and Roll Hall ofFame" definitely is.

Travis: Sure, sure.

Teresa: Anyway. Uh, there was a legendary DJ named Alan Freed, who went bythe name of Moondog.

Travis: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Teresa: Are you—are you thinking back to Drunk History? There's a DrunkHistory about this.

Travis: Yes, there is. But also, like, Moondog to me is, like, just kind of a thing Iwill foll—like, if I'm looking for a name for, like, a DJ—usually a DJ's more likeVelvet Thunder.

Teresa: Yeah.

Travis: But I'm thinking of a different kind of DJ. But, like—like, surfing, thatkind of thing. Like, Moondog is a very cool, hip... name.

Teresa: Totally. He was the self-styled father of rock and roll, and this wasbecause in the 50's, he was the host of a very popular AM radio show on WJWcalled The Moondog Show.

Travis: Of course.

Teresa: Duh. And, um, when he joined the station in 1951, he was meant tohost a classical music show. But he found himself drawn to early rock and roll atthe suggestion of a record store owner, Leo Mintz. Mintz told Moondog that thisnew, faster, catchier rhythm and blues music by Black musicians was growing inpopularity among all of his young customers, regardless of race. Mintz was soconfident in the popularity of this new sound that he decided to sponsor threehours of late night air time on WJW so the music could be featured. I mean, thismakes complete sense, knowing about the record industry. A lot of the times,people who produced the records also owned the stores, also made jukeboxes,also, like—

Travis: Yeah, there's—if you are a fan of this kind of thing, I highly recommendthis season of Cocaine and Rhinestones, which is a history of country music. But,uh, they talk a lot about how the record industry worked at this time as far as,like, publishing records and getting airplay on the radio, and how that affectedthings. Like, Billboard the magazine began as a, like—a way to chart how recordsplayed on jukeboxes, right? So that people knew which albums to put on theirjukeboxes. Yeah.

Teresa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it was all connected. Um, and Mintz onlywanted Moondog to do it. Uh, and he was great at it. Uh, he started doing thisnew, like, hip persona and vocabulary, and really as kind of like the starting pointof the DJ sound that we think of. You—I mean, you were talking about[crosstalk]—

Travis: [bombastically] Hey everybody, it's me, Moondog, comin' to you live,bringin' you the hits!

Teresa: That's right.

Travis: We're playin' all the records here, all day long. So stick around.[normally] Yeah.

Teresa: Yeah. And that was Clint McElroy as Moondog? Is that what—

Travis: Well, that was, uh, Travis as Clint McElroy—

Teresa: Right.

Travis: —uh, as Moondog.

Teresa: Yes, that's it, that's it.

Travis: [nasally voice] I'm Clint McElroy, bringing you the greatest...

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: [normally] Yeah, Dad was a—a rock and roll DJ for I think as far as I canremember. And then, uh—then oldies, and then country for a long time.

Teresa: Um, and legend has it that he was the one to coin the phrase "rock androll."

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: Um, the new program was amazingly popular. So many people tuned inthat Moondog and Mintz decided to host something that had never been donebefore.

Travis: A rock concert!

Teresa: They would hold a dance.

Travis: Oh.

Teresa: But not just any dance. A dance featuring some of the popular artistswhose records were appearing on the show.

Travis: Like the Oneders!

Teresa: [laughs] Yeah. [laughs]

Travis: They got the Oneders!

Teresa: I don't know—is our audience gonna get that?

Travis: One—one person did.

Teresa: One person'll know.

Travis: They're—they're cackling.

Teresa: Paul Williams and the Huckle—uh, Hucklebuckers were quickly set toheadline—

Travis: [gasps] The what? The Hucklebuckers?!

Teresa: Yes?

Travis: Okay. That seems like dirty slang for something.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: And I don't know what.

Teresa: Along with Tiny Grimes and The Rocking Highlanders. I've never heardof any of these bands.

Travis: All of these are great, and they sound like made-up.

Teresa: But they're great.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: Uh, and the dubbed it the Moondog Coronation Ball.

Travis: Okay!

Teresa: Mm-hmm!

Travis: I like that.

Teresa: Alright. To say that this was a hot ticket in town is a completeunderstatement.

Travis: Well, when The Hucklebuckers are gonna be there.

Teresa: They sold out so quickly that people began to counterfeit tickets, and bythe evening of the event, somewhere between 20 to 25,000 fans showed up foran event that only had the capacity for 10,000. [laughs]

Travis: Oh boy!

Teresa: Uh, less than an hour into the show, the massive crowd broke throughthe outside gates, and the hubbub was so enormous that the show had to becanceled for everybody's safety.

Um, I mean, Moondog offered an apology to the listeners the next evening, but itwas clear that rock and roll was here to stay. And this is why, one of the reasonsthat Cleveland is known as the birthplace of rock and roll.

Travis: Okay. Well, let's talk more about this, because I'm on the edge of myseat. But first... how about a thank you note for our sponsors?

Teresa: Let's go!

[theme music plays]

Travis: We wanna say thank you to Curology. Curology is sponsoring us in partthis week, uh, and we want you to know what Curology can do for you. So, I havebeen using Curology for a while now. So, how it works: you get sponsored with adermatology provider, right? And then they're going to make sure that you havethe right formula for you, right? Maybe you're worried about dry skin. Maybeyou're worried about acne. That's part of what I'm worried about, and I'm notembarrassed to say it. Let's normalize it, right?

But they help you figure out what your skin goals are, and then they're gonnacome up with the formula that works for you. They will customize a prescriptionformula with three active ingredients, picked just for you, to tackle your skincareneeds. And I like I said, they will match you with a licensed dermatology providerwho gets to know your skin, and if it's a good fit, you'll get a customizedprescription cream to address your acne, fine lines, dark spots, and more, allshipped right to your door.

I've been using it for a while now, 'cause sometimes I get the dry skin.Sometimes I get the breakouts, right? And I wanna take care of that!

Teresa: You're a classic combo.

Travis: A classic combo!

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: I'm a dancer, and a singer, and an actor.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: And I have acne. A quadruple threat.

Teresa: [laughs]

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Teresa: Shmanners is also sponsored in part this week by Made In. Um, I get alot of things—like a lot of people, we get 'em online. Um, and it's not always easyto tell exactly where things are sourced or where they're made, or even, youknow, the quality of something that you get. But if quality and craftsmanship isimportant to you...

Travis: Which it is. 'Cause, you know, sometimes you're buying stuff that youwanna use for a long, long time. In fact, you know, I miss the days of being ableto say, like, "Oh yeah, this was my mom's, and she got it from her grandmother,"and that kind of that thing.

Teresa: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You should check out Made In. It is a cookwareand kitchenware brand that works with renowned chefs and artisans to producesome of the world's best pots, pans, knives, and wine glasses. Um, I tried thenon-stick pan.

Travis: Mm-hmm. Way better than the stick pan.

Teresa: Way better. [laughs]

Travis: If you ask me.

Teresa: Here it is. We make a lot of grilled cheese.

Travis: We do.

Teresa: We use a lot of butter.

Travis: Lot of grilled cheese.

Teresa: We do, like, fry it up. And the worst thing is when you get that cheesethat sticks to the pan, and it's not in your sandwich, right?

Travis: No, no, no, no.

Teresa: I used this pan. No stick.

Travis: No stick!

Teresa: It didn't even look like I had to wash it? I did wash it.

Travis: We did wash it. But it also feels good to use. That's the other thing I like,is sometimes you get it where it's got, like, a flimsy-feeling handle, or you feellike it's gonna come separate, you know? From—from the pan itself, right? Butthis feels solid, and it feels good. Like, you could really whack a robber over thehead with this thing. You know what I mean?

Teresa: [laughs] You totally could. And it's more affordable than some otherbrands, because they make premium kitchen tools available directly to you,without the middleman markup.

Travis: And they offer a lifetime guarantee.

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Travis: I just remembered two other really great rock concerts that I've been to.

Teresa: Lay 'em on me!

Travis: Uh, I went and saw—so this is one of those where—you know, there is alot of rock concerts that I wish I had gone to, and either the band is broken up or,like, the person has passed and, like, the opportunity is gone. But this is one ofthe rare cases of, uh, like, within the first six months of moving to Cincinnati solong ago, 12 years ago now—

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: —uh, I went with my friend Jeremy to a concert, and it was FoxyShazam.

Teresa: Ah!

Travis: Who I knew nothing about at the time, uh, and we—and went to theconcert, and it was wild. Like, the energy of it was off the charts. It ended withthe lead singer Eric Nally, like, jumping up, grabbing a pipe from the ceiling, andhanging upside down and kicking out ceiling tiles. And then when he finished thesong, dropping to the floor and running out and getting into, like, their van orwhatever.

Teresa: [wheeze-laughs]

Travis: Right? And it wasn't until, like, five years later that I started reallygetting into Foxy Shazam. Uh, and the other one... I went and saw the Protomen,who do the Megaman.

Teresa: Ohh, yeah.

Travis: Along with other stuff. I saw them, uh, with my friends Bob andBradbury in Louisville. It was an amazing concert. Highly recommend, if you everget a chance. Also Megarun. That's another good one. [getting out of breath] I'veseen They Might Be Giants. I've seen—

Teresa: Okay.

Travis: —I've been to a lot of cool—I'm cool—hey! I'm cool, guys, is what I'msaying.

Teresa: [laughs quietly] You're cool of a certain age.

Travis: What?!

Teresa: I mean...

Travis: No, I—listen.

Teresa: Neither of us have ever been to, like, Bonnaroo, or, like—

Travis: No! Ew, gross!

Teresa: I mean, but that's, like, the thing now!

Travis: But where do you shower? You sleep on the ground in a—in a tent?! No!

Teresa: Anyway. Uh, I mean, it really is true, the way that you're talking about,like, these concerts.

Travis: You know who I wanna go see now?

Teresa: Yeah?

Travis: I wanna go see Shawn Mendes. I bet a Shawn Mendes concert is great.I'll be there's a lot of—and we'll talk about this in the questions, but I'll bet a lotof that thing where they hold the microphone out to the audience and people,like, sing along to it, and it's like, "Now your turn! Blehh."

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Right? That kind of thing.

Teresa: The history of rock concerts does really—you know, it's more of ahighlights list, right? Because as soon as people heard rock and roll, they wantedto go see it and dance to it and—and, you know, be part of the experience.

Travis: That, and I think we'll talk more about this in the questions, too. But Ithink that that word is the difference, right? Because I think... there are somebands and music, right? Where I feel that the—listening to the album, or evenlistening to a live album, is a same experience, right? Of being there andthing—and then there are some bands where you're like, the energy of this, theexperience of this, being there, being in the moment, sharing this with people,that's why the concert exists, right? Like, that—that is the difference to me of,like, a concert that I don't need to go to, and a concert I do need to go to.

Teresa: Um, so some highlights. The first ever stadium show occurred when TheBeatles played to a sold-out crowd of 55,600 people in Shea Stadium in New YorkCity. That was August, 1965. And then there was also the Monterey InternationalPop Music Festival in the summer of 1967, featuring breakout performances from,like, The Who, Jimi Hendrix, Janice Joplin, and then of course we know thecultural impact of Woodstock in 1969.

Travis: Absolutely.

Teresa: Um, and—

Travis: I would not have gone to Woodstock. Even knowing what I know now,I'm not—I don't—ugh. I am—I am a, uh, a prissy cat when it comes to that, andI—I have a hard enough time sleeping on a mattress that's not my own, let alone,like, camping. I—ugh! I don't do it! I don't do it, folks. I am a delicate flower.[laughs]

Teresa: [laughs] And then every rock concert seemed to pave the way for thenext one, right? Woodstock, Coachella, Bonnaroo, South by Southwest, um, and,you know, benefit concerts like Concert for Bangladesh and Live Aid and FarmAid—

Travis: [simultaneously] Farm Aid, Live Aid.

Teresa: —and all that kind of stuff, right? It just made it so that... it became theexperience of the music.

Travis: I have another question for you, and this is a question that I would alsopose to our audience, and you can tweet at us @shmannerscast. What is aconcert that is unavailable to you now for whatever reason, but there is no, like,"Oh, they might get back together." Like, it is unavailable. That if you could, like,go back in time to see a band or a performer do a concert, that's the one youwould do? I can answer mine.

Teresa: Okay.

Travis: It's Prince.

Teresa: Ohh.

Travis: If I could see—if I could see Prince perform, like... I—I—I think aboutPrince's Superbowl Halftime show literally all the time, and I get chills every timeI think about it. There is a—if you wanna see something amazing, uh, Rock andRoll Hall of Fame, the—the, like, dedication to George Harrison, they do "While MyGuitar Gently Weeps." And it's, like, Tom Petty and, like, all these amazing, like,musicians. And there's Prince, right? Who's not singing during the entire song,and kind of back in the shadows. And then at the end for, like, the last twominutes, just plays [emphatically] the greatest guitar solo I have ever seen. Like,to the point where it's—it's one of my go-to, like, "Oh, do you wanna see a personat the top of their craft? Watch this."

And if I could go back in time and see Prince perform, I would in a heartbeat.

Teresa: That would be awesome. Um, like all things, these—

Travis: Wait, but what about you?

Teresa: Oh. Michael Jackson. Right?

Travis: Yeah, I bet that's incre—you know, not to speak about morals oranything, but I bet it's an incredible concert.

Teresa: Yeah.

Travis: Bet it's an incredible concert. And, I mean, listen. I think The Beatles areup there, right?

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: I think The Beatles when they were, like, the British Invasion andeveryone screaming and, like, losing their mind and passing out, right?

Teresa: Yeah.

Travis: I think that that's the one I'd be at. Because, like, the energy of that Ibet is like... like, you can't replicate that.

Teresa: Absolutely.

Travis: Same with, like, Elvis. But still, Prince, top of the list.

Teresa: Top of the list. Um, and you start to see these parallel lines start tomove further and further apart when you start getting into big concerts, and thensmaller venues, right? Um, and the smaller venue kind of veers into punk rock,right?

Travis: Yeah, I was gonna say. Yep.

Teresa: And grunge, and things like that. And then the bigger venue startsmoving into not just rock and roll—

Travis: But pop and—

Teresa: —but pop, right? And, like—

Travis: There—there were—

Teresa: —Motown dancing and stuff.

Travis: —it's a response to—it's a response to each other, right?

Teresa: Right.

Travis: 'Cause, like, when you see the—those big concerts and everything, itstarts to feel like, you know, the negative way to view that is like selling out,right?

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: And when you're doing the smaller shows, it's intimate. We're theretogether. This is a shared [unintelligible]. [through gritted teeth] We don't answerto anybody! [normally] Yeah, but you're also having to drive yourself everywhereand, like, pay for your own gas, so.

Teresa: Yeah. Um, and let's—let's take a second to talk a little bit about punk.Uh, it was entirely different, because of the energy of the crowd. Um, it waspretty aggressive, we'll say. Um, it could often be angry, but it was just so in—

Travis: Passionate.

Teresa: Passionate, and high energy, uh, that fans and bands of the high speedmusic began to refer to the type of dancing they did as mashing.

Travis: Uh-huh.

Teresa: Mm-hmm. Not, you know, dancing exactly, but kind of just like—it'salmost like human pinball, right?

Travis: Right, right. It's—it's—it's—[laughs quietly] it's—a good way to thinkabout it is the way that, like, uh, atoms when they start getting hot, right? Willbounce off each other, and that's where the heat comes from, right? The frictionof them bouncing. And that is what a mosh pit looks like. It literally looks likeatoms becoming agitated and hotter and hotter as they bounce off of each other.

Teresa: And, uh, legend has it that moshing was coined by Bad Brains' leadsinger, H. R., who invented the term because his fans misunderstood his Jamaicanaccent when he tried to say "mash."

Travis: There you go. Love it.

Teresa: Awesome. Um—

Travis: And my favorite dance? The Monster Mosh.

Teresa: Hmm.

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: Nice. [laughs quietly] Uh, so we're up into the 80's with more, like,hardcore music, with, like, thrash bands, like Megadeath and Slayer and—

Travis: Anthrax?

Teresa: Anthrax, yeah, uh-huh. Which even released a song called "Caught in aMosh." Uh, which really made mosh pits mainstream and international, right? Um,and we can't talk about it—we can't talk about grunge bands—

Travis: Without Nirvana.

Teresa: —without Nirvana. The legendary lead singer, Kurt Cobain, was knownto hurl himself off the stage into a dense crowd of fans as they continued singing,or he was playing guitar.

Travis: Crowdsurfing.

Teresa: Yes, and that was when crowdsurfing was born!

Travis: Once again, it's that intimate, like, connection with the audience, youknow?

Teresa: Right. And you could never—he could never have done that at, like, abig stadium show. It would've have to have been a fairly more intimate venue.

Travis: What you see now to try to replicate that in a lot of, like, stadium shows,those big venues. They will build the stage so that there is, like, a jutting out atthe front, right? Like, that it goes into the audience, so they can, like, walk downand, like, touch people's hands in a very, uhhh... reminiscent of perhaps theChrist figure...

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: ... uh, way. "Touch the hem of my garment" kind of moment. But youhave that where they have to, like, manufacture that kind of intimacy with theaudience. Yeah.

Teresa: Um, so another thing about rock and roll, about the grunge scene,moshing, thrash bands, things like that, is it has this kind of pendulum swing thatwe often talk about in Shmanners where it is a rebellion, right? From the norm.And so people who feel outside of society might gravitate towards that. But thenit becomes so popular that the rest of society follows, right? We saw this with,like, beards, uh, if you remember that one.

Travis: Look at ZZ Top.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: I mean, literally. The—literally—

Teresa: No, yeah.

Travis: —ZZ Top's beards were a, like, symbol of rebellion, right? Of, like, "We'reoutside of the norm, baby!"

Teresa: So there has been a kind of push back now. Being, like, "Well, this isn'treal rock music 'cause it's westernized and it's, like, capitalization, and—andcapitalism," and all that kind of stuff, right? Because so far the genre has movedto be so popular that now, quote, "Is it even a rebellion if we do this? Ifeverybody's doing it?"

Travis: Well, you know, the thing is, is, like—the thing about any kind of artform, which obviously music is—any kind of art form, there is always a bleedingedge, right?

Teresa: Totally.

Travis: You're always moving forward. And the chances are, right? The thingsthat are rebellion, part of it, we don't know. Right? But the other side of it isthat... ugh. Not to—not to wax philosophical for a moment. But radio and thedistribution of art, of music, is so wildly different these days, right? Because whenyou talk about, like, records and radio play, right? And jukeboxes and everything,at that point, the ability, one, to make it, was a lot smaller, right? Because therewas just less avenues to go down. But it also meant that it was a reaction to whatpeople wanted. Right?

Teresa: Right.

Travis: Because it didn't make sense to record a record and publish it and do allthat if no one was buying it.

Teresa: Right.

Travis: And nowadays, right? There are so many different ways to inflate thosenumbers and to, like—"Oh, okay. Well, no one's—"

Teresa: And you can even self-publish on the internet.

Travis: Well, so that's the two different things, right?

Teresa: Right.

Travis: Is because you have self-publishing, and avenues where you can makemusic, right? That people want. Because if people aren't buying it, you don'tmake music. But then you have music over here, right? Where it's just like, "Well,we're gonna play this so many times and play it in commercials, and it's gonna bein this movie that everyone's watching, and so even if people don't like it, it'll bestuck in their heads. And then we can, like, play it on the radio enough it'll bestuck in their heads that they'll buy it, right? And they'll listen to it. And it won'tmatter if they like it or not. They're just so exposed to it it will be popular.

Teresa: Man.

Travis: Yeah, right? And it's—it—that's why I think that when we talk about therebellion part of it, I think it's—the rebellion of rock music right now, or music ingeneral, is those people who are self publishing, is those people who, like, recordtheir thing, not for commercialization and not for that but because, like, this isthe music they wanted to make, and this is the music that people are listening to,right? And I think ...interestingly, I think we see a lot of bands and musicians andstuff getting big breaks on TikTok now?

Teresa: Yeah!

Travis: Right? Because there are songs that get—like, that make some kind ofconnection with people, and it gets used a lot, right? And I'm sure that there's away to over-inflate that and manufacture that if you have enough money. But Ithink that you see a lot of bands getting big on social media platforms now.Anyways.

Teresa: Anyways.

Travis: It's very different.

Teresa: Hey, here's the thing. Rock concerts, concerts in general, music is a bigmoney-making thing.

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: But... if you like it, that's great!

Travis: Put a ring on it.

Teresa: Don't—don't let anyone take away the joy. What is it—cha—you chase—

Travis: Chase your bliss?

Teresa: Chase your bliss, that's it.

Travis: Yeah, I will say right off the bat, just so long as we're talking aboutmusic, uh, don't gatekeep music, right? Don't judge other people's music, right?It's—like, listen. You have probably figured it out from me listing the concerts I'vebeen to. Uh, my music taste varies between, I would say, slightly rock punk,right? Slightly pop rock, and a 70-year-old woman. Right?

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Like, that is... I get it, right? I don't know that the bands I listen to arecool, but gosh darn it they make me happy to listen to. And don't take awaysomeone else's happiness because they listen to a band that you don't think isgood. That's not how that works. And simultaneously, don't take away someone'shappiness if they enjoy a band that you think you enjoy more than them. That'salso not how it works.

Let's answer some questions.

Teresa: I—first—

Travis: What?

Teresa: —I wanna quote Jack Black, in the critically acclaimed film classic,School of Rock.

Travis: Okay.

Teresa: "For those about to rock, we salute you."

Travis: I don't think he coined that. I think that that—okay, it's not important.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Um, okay. This is the big one. Are you ready?

Teresa: Yes.

Travis: Rod asks:

"Singing along. Yea or nay?"

Let me start off by saying a story.

Teresa: Okay.

Travis: So, we went and saw Mike Doughty. Um, Mike Doughty, formerly of SoulCo—

Teresa: Ahh, yeah. I do remember that.

Travis: Yeah. Formerly of Soul Coughing. Uh, now a solo, Mike Doughty. Hisalbum, Haughty Melodic, had a huge impact on me and my brothers. So we wentand saw this concert, and in the middle of it, right? Mike Doughty is, like,between songs, right? Getting ready to start another song. This guy startswalking down the center aisle, like, raising his hand and waving wildly to get MikeDoughty's attention. And finally Mike Doughty looked up and he was like, "Yes?"

And the guy was like, "Uh, hey man, sorry to interrupt, but I have an importantquestion for someone who's here."

And Mike Doughty goes, "No. No! Sit back down!"

And the guy, like, looked at him. And Mike Doughty said, "There's a way to dothis. There's a way that this is done. And this is not it!"Like, and here's the thing. He's absolutely correct, and the thing is, is, like, hispoint that he then went on say is like, "Listen, man. Everybody here is having ashared experience, right? And you are making everyone's experience about you

without asking, without consent, right? You are doing—like, no. Go sit backdown."

And the guy went and sat back down. And listen, on some level I feel bad for theguy, right? But on the other level, what Mike Doughty said is correct, right?

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: Is that when you go to a concert, it is a weird mixture of a personalexperience and a shared experience.

Teresa: Sure.

Travis: Right? Of, like, yeah, you're there, and you should enjoy that concert.You should have your time. But also, everyone else is trying to do the same thing,right? And I think that we will come back to that a lot as we answer some ofthese questions. So, singing.

Teresa: Singing. Uh, the first thing I would say is read the room, right?

Travis: Yes, absolutely.

Teresa: If it is like that Mike Doughty concert where we were all sittingquietly-ish—I mean, there was a little bit of chit-chat. It was more of kind of,like... more of a theatrical experience than it was like a Taylor Swift show, right?Where it's a stadium thing, and, you know, everybody is so far away, and there'sJumbotrons, and all kind of stuff. Right?

Um, and if you find yourself feeling like you might be the only one singing,probably take it down a notch. And I'm not telling you not to enjoy yourself, butthis is just not the time to break out your, you know... break out your pipes andBroadway belt it all, you know?

Travis: There are two different ways to do it.

Teresa: You can kind of, like, whisper it, mouth it—like, you're not in your car.

Travis: Yeah. There's—I think there's two different ways to do it, where there'sthe people who... are so moved by the emotion that they start, like, singingalong. And then there are people who are singing along like they want the leadsinger to go, "You know what? Why don't you get up here!"

Teresa: [laughs] Yeah.

Travis: Um, and, you know, a counterpoint to that story, we also when we wereat that Moody Blues concert, in the middle of "Nights in White Satin," a guy in thefront row got down on one knee and proposed. And she said yes, right? And itwasn't like, "Look at us, everybody. Look at us." He just did it. And the band sawthat and they, like, gestured to them as they sang. They put a spotlight on it. Thedrummer, like, gave him his drumsticks afterwards. Some other guy tried to grabthe drumsticks like it was a giveaway.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: The drummer pulled them back and went, "No!" And gave 'em to theguy, right? But, like—

Teresa: But he didn't hijack the show, is really what it is.

Travis: Correct. If you—and nobody asked about this, but if this is somethingyou would like to do, propose and have it be, like, a shared group experience,first thing to do is, like, ask the venue. I mean, if you have a way, like, tweet atthe, you know, band or singer or, like, if they have an email address orsomething. But the best way is probably to ask the venue to ask the performer ifthat is okay, and if they say no, do not do it. Right? Because, like, don't hijack theexperience, as you said.

This is from Jenner.

"If you have a great spot in the pit and have to go to the bathroom, is your friendallowed to save your spot?" So this probably means, like, standing room in thepit, yeah.

Teresa: Um... I don't—I don't know exactly how if you're standing someonewould... like, just spread—

Travis: Elbows out, yeah.

Teresa: [laughs] Elbows out, just kind of, like, spread themself a little bit? But,like, if you attained that spot because you came in early, or you had that, like,standing room ticket, or whatever it is, if you... leave to go to the bathroom, Ithink that it is okay for your friend to then make room for you to return.

Travis: Yeah. I mean, uh—so Becky and Adam also asked about, like, movingthrough the crowd. And the thing is is, like, there will be people who side-eyeyou, right? But that is about them—right? Manners and Shmanners isn't about,like, making it so no one's ever off-put by your actions ever.

Teresa: Right.

Travis: 'Cause you can't manage someone else's experience. There will bepeople who are like, "Ugh." Right? Is it okay to get back to your spot? Yeah,[laughs] absolutely. Right? Like, you were there. You had to go to the bathroom,a basic human function, and you wanted to come back. Absolutely. It make takeyou some time.

Teresa: Yeah.

Travis: I mean, you go to the bar and to the bathroom and to the merch standor whatever at your own peril.

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: Right? Because where there are not saved seats, right? There's noguarantee that you'll be able to get back to that place. I—I would recommend inthis case, especially if it was, like, you and one friend, to see if they would just gowith you, right? And then the two of you find a place again later, right?

Teresa: Right. And I think that there's—there's a kind of, like—there's thementality of, "I can push my way to the front!" Right?

Travis: Right.

Teresa: And nobody—that's not cool. Don't do that.

Travis: No, you wanna flow like water.

Teresa: [laughs] So if you want to be in the front, and there is, like, standingroom, non-ticketed space, unassigned seats in the front, you gotta do the work.You gotta show up early enough to get there, right?

Travis: Get there early, right.

Teresa: You got to—if you—

Travis: Bring a stadium pal that you could pee in while you're just standingthere. No, don't do that. Don't do that.

Teresa: [laughs] Uh, you have to be prepared to stand your ground if you don'twant people to get in front of you, but you have to be there to do it. If you showup five minutes before the show starts and it's—you're now in standing room onlyin the back, don't push your way to the front. Those people got there, and theyprepared for that. You came here late, so this is where you are now.

Travis: Um, I—I will give you a life lesson learned from one Mr. Daniel Tiger, oneof Bebe's favorites. "Enjoy the 'wow' that's happening now." And by that I meandon't be so focused on trying to get the quote, unquote, "best spot" or whatever,that you are not enjoying the concert you are at. Um, because, you know... Iwent and saw Harvey Danger in concert with my brothers, and it wasn't aboutwhere we were standing, and it wasn't about, like, were we comfortable or did weget nudged from time to time. Like, was it hot and sweaty?

Yes, of course it was. Right? But it was one of the greatest concerts I've everbeen to, because the experience of it was so, like, magical, of being there withmy brothers. This was, like, their farewell tour, and they played for, like, fourhours, and it was amazing, right? And if I had spent that time being hung up on,like, "Do I have the best view possible? Am I as close as I could be? Oh, thatperson gave me the stink eye." Right? Like, that's just gonna take away from allof that.

Teresa: Mm-hmm.

Travis: Um, one more question here. This is from Matthew.

"What is appropriate in the post-show meet and greet? How do I be me and notscare the artist?"

Teresa: I think it has to do with setup, right? If this is, like, VIP into the greenroom type thing, you just gotta be cool. Be chill.

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: Um, and, you know, remember that these artists and performers arepeople.

Travis: Correct.

Teresa: So talk to them as you would talk to a person. I think that it's great tolet people know how much their music means to you, right? Like, if you got tomeet Mike Doughty—

Travis: Which I did, yes.

Teresa: Which you did. I think it's wonderful for an artist to hear that their arthas touched you.

Travis: Right.

Teresa: That is one part of a conversation. That is not the dominantconversation, right?

Travis: Correct.

Teresa: So if you have just one thing to say, say it, and then hang. But if youhave a lot of things to say, I would say, plan out kind of, like, a little—a little thingthat is more like a paragraph and less like a dissertation.

Travis: So, my advice is, it's three steps.

Teresa: Okay.

Travis: The greet, the ask, and the exit.

Teresa: Yes, and this is set up wonderfully by you MBMBaM boys when you dothis, in kind of like receiving line style.

Travis: Right. So, if you are in a receiving line style especially, right? The greetis, "Hi, my name is Travis." Or whatever you wanna say, right? "Hi." The greeting.

The ask: "I was just wondering if you would sign this. I was just wondering if wecould get a picture. I just wanted to tell you." What is it that you want out of thisexperience, right? That's the ask.

And then the exit is when that ask part is done, you say, "Thank you so much. Ireally appreciate it. Have a great day." Or whatever.

Teresa: Or "Great show, I loved it."

Travis: Yeah.

Teresa: Any of that stuff.

Travis: And then you get out. Because the thing is is as much as it is about theintimacy and the connection, that is not your moment, right? There is not—youare not going to impress them so much that they become your best friend,especially in a meet and greet line. Right? Especially if it's, like, after a show.They're probably tired, um, and, you know, they're doing this—they want toconnect with people or they wouldn't be there. Um, but much as it is an individualexperience and a shared experience, there's probably other people in line behindyou. There's other people in front. Right? So it is about what you want out of thisexperience, and not what you can give them?

Um, that said, if you have fun things to give people, I love getting stuff frompeople.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Um, and if it is more of like—

Teresa: We love—you particularly love local treats.

Travis: I do.

Teresa: Uh, love handmade art [crosstalk] things.

Travis: I also like magnets.

Teresa: And magnets.

Travis: Just as a rule, I like magnets. Um, but also, like, if it's more of a, like,"We're hanging out in a room all together," wait for your opportunity. Right? Totalk to the person. Um, because, like, what you don't want to do is be, like, thehovering over someone else's shoulder while they're talking to, and you're kindof, like, goalkeeping to jump in as soon as its done. Like, play it a little bit coolerthan that. And then go over and say, like, "Hey!" Uh, once again, the greet, theask, the exit.

"Hey, my name is Travis. I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed the show. CanI grab an autograph real quick? Thank you so much. Pleasure," or whatever. Ifthey ask you questions, that's great. You know what I mean? Like, "Oh—" and ifyou wanna say, like, "I drove 14 hours to be here and it was totally worth it,thank you so much." Right? Like, that kind of thing.

But... the, like, "I am about to start a conversation with this person that's goingto lead to a lifelong friendship." That is a level of pressure on the situation that isgoing to make it rough. So just play it cool, hotshot! I believe in you.

And I also wanna say thank you to everybody for coming and listening to thisepisode and joining us. We sure hope you enjoyed it. If you did, go tell somefriends!

Teresa: Yeah!

Travis: Go on the Twitters, the TikToks, the Instas Gram, and tell them, like,"Hey. Go check out this episode on rock concerts. It was wonderful. Listen to allthese cool bands that Travis has gotten to see. He's totally a cool dude, and wecan all agree on it!"

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: Uh, we also wanna say thank you to Maximumfun.org, our podcasthome. Uh, go check out all the other amazing shows there. We wanna say thankyou to the other McElroys, I guess? I don't know why I phrased it like that, butthank you, other McElroys.

Teresa: [laughs]

Travis: You can go to mcelroy.family to check out all the other McElroy showsthere. Uh, go check out our new merch! Well, it's not new merch.

Teresa: The last week to get the pin of the month.

Travis: That is true! Uh, that is the Gooshie Wolves pin, which benefits theInnocence Project, which exonerates the wrongfully convicted through DNAtesting, and reforms the criminal justice system to prevent future injustice. Um,and the "It's Trash" sticker, a green stoneware with a TAZ logo, and a Bestiesshirt. Uh, go check all those out. And if you're listening to this once August has

started, there's probably gonna be some new stuff there, including a new pin ofthe month that I think is really great.

Teresa: Ooh!

Travis: Uh, Teresa and I are gonna be at Dragon Con this year, so if you'replanning on going to Dragon Con, maybe we'll see you there!

Teresa: Yeah!

Travis: And you can practice your greeting, your ask, and your exit. What else,Teresa?

Teresa: We always thank Brent "brentalfloss" Black for writing our theme music,which is available as a ringtone where those are found. Thank you to Kayla M.Wasil for our Twitter thumbnail art, which is where we got all of the listenerquestions for this topic, @shmannerscast. Um, also thank you to Bruja BettyPinup Photography for the cover picture of our fan-run Facebook group,Shmanners Fanners. Go ahead and join that group if you love to get or giveexcellent advice from other fans!

Um, I also wanna say, keep sending in those topics. Keep sending in your idioms,it's comin' up soon! Another idiom ep.

Travis: Oooh!

Teresa: And you can send those suggestions to shmanners... cast@gmail.com.

Travis: There it is.

Teresa: I blanked for a second.

Travis: Uh, did we thank Alex?

Teresa: No we didn't, but we are now.

Travis: Yeah. Thank you, Alex. We couldn't do it without you, and thank you toeverybody who supports us through Max Fun so that we can pay Alex what she'sworth! And that's gonna do it for us. Join us again next week!

Teresa: No RSVP required!

Travis: You've been listening to Shmanners...

Teresa: Manners, Shmanners. [pause] Get it.

[theme music plays]

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