the actual illusion: an interview with ken jacobs

Dossiê A Música e suas Determinações Materiais – https://revistaecopos.eco.ufrj.br/ ISSN 2175-8689 – v. 23, n. 1, 2020

Theactualillusion:aninterviewwithKenJacobs1

InterviewbyRodrigoSombraProfessorintheAudiovisualDepartmentofFederalUniversityofMatoGrossodoSul (UFMS).Sombraholdsamasters inCinemaStudies fromSanFranciscoStateUniversity (2015) and a Ph.D. in Communication and Culture from FederalUniversityofRiodeJaneiro(2019).

RodrigoSombra©

1ThisinterviewwascarriedoutduringtheperiodIwasavisitingPh.DstudentatNYUDepartmentofSpanishand Portuguese Languages and Literatures with a scholarship sponsored by the Coordenaçao deAperfeiçoamentodePessoaldeNıvelSuperior-Brasil(CAPES).


RodrigoSombra©“Fourthfloor,fourthfloor!”KenJacobsyellsintotheintercom.Akeyfigureinthe

historyofAmericanexperimentalcinema,Jacobshaslivedfordecadesinthesame

buildinginLowerManhattan,thesamewhereheshotNissanArianaWindow(1969)

andwouldwelcomemeonewinterafternoonforaninterview.Oncethestepsare

over,hefindsmeinthedoorwaythenleadsmeinside.Exploringhisapartmentis

liketraversingamazeofshelvescrammedwithboxes,images,books,toys,andall

sorts of gadgets. Merely being there implies an inevitable risk of bumping into

somethingandpossiblyjeopardizingtheexistenceofoneofthemanifolditemsof

thatcabinetofwonders.Infact,verylittletheresuggeststheideaofhome.Itisasif

Jacobs and his wife Flo lived better inside a file cabinet, a chaotic archive with

numerousshelvesanddrawerswhere,onawhim,someonedecidedtostoreabed.

It is December 2018 and nothing occupies the director's mind more than the

impeachment process of Donald Trump: “I am tired, tired of waiting for this

president to go to jail. He's a criminal. He only becamepresident tomakemore

money.Lubitschcouldhavewrittenthatstory.Hehadacertainsenseofhumor.”At

thetime,Jacobswasnotaloneinhopingforthefrustratedimpedimentahead:"A


happyendingwouldbetoseeTrumpwearingasuitthecolorofhishair."Orange,

liketheuniformofprisonersinAmerica.

Threemonthsearlier,JacobshadpresentedattheMuseumoftheMovingImage,in

NewYorkCity,aperformancewitheternalismsandtheNervousMagicLantern,both

3D imaging devices manufactured by the filmmaker. The Magic Lantern, in

particular, inwhich abstraction reigns, is evocativeof his early artistic efforts.A

painter as a young man,Jacobstook root in abstract expressionism before

discoveringcinema.VisitstoMoMAandotherNewYorkvenuesdedicatedtoavant-

garde filmswould leadhim to embracemoving images, and also fosterpersonal

interactionswithdirectorssuchasJonasMekasandStanBrakhage,unitedinwhat

would later become the heroic generation of American avant-garde

cinema.JacobswasalsooneofthemostimportantpartnersofJackSmith,thegay

underground icon with whom he would collaborate in the films Little Stabs at

Happiness(1960)andBlondeCobra(1963).

The junk aesthetic of the films shotwith Smithwouldbe further temperedwith

researchusingproto-cinematographic languages,suchasshadowplay, themagic

lantern,andstereoscopy.Suchexperimentsshowtheradicalillusionismattheheart

ofhisart.Inthem,Jacobstakesasobjecttheoperationsofthehumanvision,making

apparatusescapableofcreatingmonstrous,aberrant images,aptto“entanglethe

mindinapparentimpossibilities.2”

Thefilmmakerwasalsonotableforhisrepeatedvisitstoearlycinema,asinTom

TomthePiper’sSon(1969),hismostcelebratedfilm.Infact,itwouldbeinfound-

footage practices that the political bent of his work would reveal itself with

maximumforce.Hisforaysintothe20th-centuryvisualarchivewouldyieldsomeof

the most disturbing reinterpretations of American history, from an apparently

elementarygesture,suchaspresentingdiscardedtakesfromaTVnewsstoryonthe

2JACOBS,Ken.NervousMagicLantern:SpiralNebula(2005).DVD’sbooklet.


murderofMalcolm-X,foundbychanceinthetrash,inPerfectFilm(1986),tofilms

as consequential as Star Spangled to Death (1956-60/ 2003-2004), where the

personalandthecollectiveamalgamateinatapestryofmorethansixhoursinlength

reworkedbyJacobsoveralmosthalfacentury.

Bornin1933,Jacobsretainssomeofthevirilecomplexionofyouthandthewadof

thickwhitehaircombedbacklendsanintimidatingsharpnesstohiscountenance.

He's a restless type.While listening to the questions, he shifts around the chair.

Whenever it is his turn to speak, a low voice vibrates the surroundings. In the

following interview, he comments on his roots in abstract expressionism, the

lessonsof painterHansHofmann, towhomhewas a student,without forgetting

thoseofPollockandJoanMitchell,andalsorecallshisinteractionswithJackSmith.

Healsodiscussestheoscillationbetweenmilitancyandescapisminhiswork,finally

revealingdetailsofa little-knownfacetofhiscareer,hismorethan30yearsasa

universityprofessor,whenheentangledstudentsinapermanentengagementwith

Hollywoodfilmmaking.

TheActualIllusion:AninterviewwithKenJacobs

RodrigoSombra1–Throughoutyourlifeyou’vebeenverycriticalofcinemaasa

device of power. You oftenmention howmanipulative, insidious and ultimately

dangerous,cinematicoperationscanbe.Andevenhowtyrannicalthoseoperations

arewhendeployedinaculturalsystemlikeHollywood.Youseemedtoalwayshave

keptacertainsuspiciousattitudetowardscinema.Iwonderifyoucouldcomment

onhowthissuspiciousstancefirstcametobe.Didsomethinginyourearlydaysas

amoviegoersparkedthisattitudeofsuspicion?

Ken Jacobs: When I was 17 I became suspicious of everything. Suspicious of

everything.Allmypoliticalattitudesgobacktotheageof17.

Whathappenedbackthen?I just became alert and understood that people were getting rewards from

deception. That American historywasn'twhat itwas said to be. And also Iwas


talkingtomygrandmotherandshewasgettingoccasionallettersfromEurope,from

thesurvivingmembersofthefamily.JewsintheEastofEurope.Itwasjustshocking.

So,inawaythisdevelopedandIbegantounderstandleftandrightandwhatthis

wasabout.AndI'veonlygottendeeperintothatattitude,nothinghasrelievedit.

2-Youareoneofthepioneersofavant-gardecinemaintheUS.Couldyoudescribe

howweretheaudiencesofthatrisingexperimentalcinemainthelate50s,early60s

(screeningsatCinema16,CharlesTheater)?

Cinema16was awonderful thing that happened andMoMA showed impossible

films.We'dbewatchingLulu…what'shername?LouiseBrooksinthatearlyPabst

film…Andit’samazing.Ibegantoseethesefilmsattheageofwas17.Myhighschool

inWilliamsburg,Brooklyn–averypoorareatthattime–,hadaticketforstudents

thatwantedtogotothemuseum.Theycouldgofreewiththisticket.Andatsome

point,theteachersaid:“Youjustholdontoituntilsomebodyelseaskforit.Youare

theonlyonewhousesit”.So,Iwasgoingtothemuseumeachweek,youknow?IfI

had13centscofferedIcouldgettothemuseumandbackagain.So,itwasamazing.

Itwasawholeotherdimensionofreality.Peoplewereeducated,theysatoutinthe

garden of the museum. Educated people. The films were uncanny. I saw Greed

(1924)there.Stroheim'sGreed.Iwas17yearsold!TherewereafewgoodAmerican

films,butveryveryfew.

Andtherewasalsoa theater,astrangetheater inWilliamsburg, thatshowedold

films,becauseIthinktheywerecheap.Thetheaterhadalmostnoaudience,butit

showedMaxReinhardt'sAmidsummernight’sdream(1935).Isawamazingthings

there.Iwasalwaysinterestedinartandthiswasaturnontocinema.

Andwhenyourfilms,orthefilmsofJonasMekasorJackSmith,membersofthethenemerging avant-garde cinema scene,were shown, howdid the public react?Didviewershaveareverentattitudetowardsyourfilms,asitdoestodaywhentheyarescreened?Jackhadaverynarrowopeningintohissoul.Andhelovedthefilmshesawasakid

intheMid-West.Andthesewerestupidcolorspectacles.Henevergotoverit.Ithink


hecouldseesometimesthemeritsofthegreatfilms,buthisneedforfilm,hislove

forfilm,stayedwiththatstuff[hehadwatchedasakid],andtheninhisownwork

hewouldlampoonitatthesametimehewasreverent.Helovedit.Thisiswhohe

was.

You collaborated with Jack Smith in films like Blonde Cobra (1963) and Star

Spangled toDeath (1956-60/2003-2004), but it is known that at somepoint the

friendship and the collaboration between you and him fell apart for good.What

wouldbethemostenduringeffectsofJackSmithinyourlifeandinyourwork?

Noneinmylife.BlondeCobra, infact,Ididn’tshoot.IshotStarSpangledtoDeath

andsomeonewhoassistedmeoccasionallywasBobFleischner.Afterwestopped

shootingStarSpangledhesecretlybeganshootingBlondeCobra,butthenneitherof

them[BobFleischnerandJackSmith]knewwhattodowiththefootagetheyshot.

Theycouldn’tfigurehowtoputittogether.AndIlookedatitandIsaid:“there’sa

filmthere”.AndBobgaveittomeandlateronItapedJack’sspeakingandputthem

togethertomakeBlondeCobra.

BlondeCobra(1963)


LittleStabsatHappiness(1960)

Partofhisworkinvolvesdiscardedmaterials:debris,rags,rubbish.Wheredoesthisinterestintrashcomefrom?

Well,thisrubbishyoucallishistory.It’sthedeeperhistory,it’sthediscardedhistoryandthatisattractivetome.

Flaubertusedtosaythatthereisa“moraldensitytobefoundincertainformsofugliness.”

Oh,that’sverygood.

Whatkindofmoralityisinvolvedinyourengagementwithdiscardedmaterials?

Anotherwordforthisdiscardedmaterialisrefuse.Sometimesabasketinvitesyoutodrop your refuses into it. I think it’s aHolocaust reaction. Yes. I think it’s thepredicamentofJews.AndI’mnotreligiousatall.Atall.I’mveryanti-religion,veryantianyfixedCosmology.Thevirginbirthisanembarrassment.It’sstupidestthingintheworld.Buttherearethehistoricalfacts.Peopleexperiencedthesethings.MyGrandmotherwasexperiencinginBrooklynwhatwashappeningtoherrelativesinEurope.


PerfectFilm(1986)

You once said that "My accomplishment is out-of-the-art market Abstract

ExpressionismpickinguponMarey-MuybridgeLessonsofHansHofmann."While

Hofmannwasyourteacher,areMareyandMuybridgesortofimaginarymentorsto

you?

No,theyarerealteachers.Lookattheirwork,it’sawesome.Itbreaksthecontinuity

ofillusion.Theyareintobreakingthingsdowntotheframe.Mareyespecially…My

God,it’sjustarevelation.Allthesedreamsareframes?Wow,whatatruth!Kidscan

learneasilynowfromtheYoutube,butwhenIwasakidyouwenttoamovieand

youenteredintoadream.

Could you further comment how you assimilatedMuybridge andMarey in your

work?

Ithinkinjusttheimportanceofthenucleus,theframe,youknow?Thestoryisvery

very far away from the frame.And, really, another teacherwas theAtomBomb.

Thereissomethingsodeeplyintrinsictocreation,notthemoviesnow,butjustlife

couldbereachedanditcouldbeexplodedandreleaseall thismysteriousenergy

thatwoulddevastatecities.God…So,itturnsoneinward.Ilovethemoviesasmuch

asanybody.Iwatchalotofmovies-ontelevisionnow.Imean,theyarefantastic


movies.Theskillthattheyaremadewithisawesome.Oursonmakesmovies–and

theyaregood,butthat’snotwhatIwannado.


StarSpangledtoDeath(1956-60/2003-2004)

InStanBrachakge’sbookFilmatWit'sEnd:EightAvant-GardeFilmmakers,hesays

that“KenJacobsnevercametotermswiththe‘artcrowd’ofNewYork.Herejected

it totally.”Do you agreewith that?Does your relationshipwith the artworld in

generalisstillthesameupuntilthisday?

No,I’mkinder.

Whathaschanged?

I’mlessofananti-snobsnob.Moreunderstanding.Peoplehavetheirpretensesandtheyneedthem.


Insomeways,yourengagementwithprotocinematicdevices(shadowplays,magic

lanterns,stereoscopicvisuality)haspointedforalongtimetotheideaof“expanded

cinema,”topracticesofthemovingimagethatwouldbecomewidelyembracedin

contemporary art. However, even though your work is presented in screening

roomswithinmuseums, very rarely it was installed in the traditional spaces of

galleriesandmuseums.Whyisitthatway?Doyoubelievethatthereissomesortof

institutionalresistancetowardsyourworkintheartworld?

IfeelIwaswelcomed,butmanyintheaudiencedidn’tknowwhattheywereseeing

and were impatient and hardly convinced that if you give some time to this,

somethingmighthappen.So,itwasusingmeansthattheywerefamiliarwith–the

movies–butnotmakingmovies.

CanIshowyousomething?

[I accept the invitation, we interrupt the interview and Jacobs takes me to the

monitoronwhichheworkssuchthatImaywatchhislatestexperiment.Entitled

DetailsofPollock’sWhiteLight, it isaneternalismappliedtoaJacksonPollockoil

painting.“Itonlyhaseightminutes,”hewarns,beforepressingPLAY.“Anditworks

bestwithasingleeye,”hesays,handingmeacardboardrectanglethatisjustalittle

biggerthananeyeball.Theimageonthescreenoscillatesbetweenthecolorsand

contrasts between the blacks and the whites, dissolving into multiple spatial

variations, hinting at previously imperceptible volumes and depths, as if the

techniqueofeternalisminventedbyJacobsenhancedthedensityofthepainting's

materiality,ofeachinktrail'sthickness.Attheendoftheprojection,Iturntothe

sideandnoticeKenandFlo,hiswife,bothstanding,stillfixedonthescreen.Eachof

themhastheirrighthandoveroneeyeandletsasmileshowontheirlips.Wefinally

returned to the circular table in the center of the apartment to resume the

conversation,thistimeaccompaniedbyFlo].


RodrigoSombra©

You’vementionedyoumetPollockwhenyouwereyoung.Howwasyouencounterwithhim?

Hewasveryrepulsive…Drunkandvulgar.Violent.Hewasprettynuts.

Wasitabriefmeeting?

No,wedidn’tmeet.Iwasjustseeinghim.Hewasveryrepulsive.Youlearnedtostayawayfromhim.TherewasabarneartheHofmannschoolwhereartistswouldgotooandhewasnotpermittedtocome[laughing].

WhatimpressedmethemostwhenwatchingtheNervousMagicLantern,inyourlast

performance at theMuseumof theMoving Image,was to findmyself during the

screeninginastateofradicalcuriosity.Butthatwasanalwaysfrustratedcuriosity.

You attractedme to see the objects, the abstract objects seen in the images you

projected.AndinthebeginningIhadonlyaglimpseofthoseobjects,butsoonmy

visionwascalledupontoseemore,toseetheirvolume,toobservealltheircorners,


to see them fromall angles.However, thatwas a visionnever entirely available.

Suddenlyeverythingstartedalloveragain, therewasalwaysaninterruption,the

loopingwasalways interrupted, theobjectswerenever fully seen. So, therewas

alwaysthisintenseplaybetweencuriosityandfrustration.

Frustration Machine. I think I will call my next work “Frustration machine”

[laughing].DidIshowyouthese[hehandsmeasetofplateswithabstractimages,

thesortofplateprojectedintheNervousMagidLanternapparatus]atthemuseum?

Yes,Ithinkyouprojectedthemthatday.

Iamtappingthesubconscious.Opticalthingshappen,lightsaregoingonandoff.It

isacertainkindofhypnotism.

It’slikeapossession.Itfelthaunting.

Anddangerous,crazy-making.ButImeanittobebeautiful.Iencouragedsomeone

recentlytobringtheir littlechildrenoverbecauseI learnedfromexperiencethat

kidswhowatch these stuffs talk out loud.They talk aboutwhat they see. It’s so

interesting. Very often, in sophisticated abstract art, they tell you: “Youmustn't

rorschach, you mustn't see things that aren't there, just see the paint”. But I

discovered I really likehaving thesekids, littlekids, talkingaboutwhat they see

[laughing].SoIinvitedsomeoneoverwiththeirlittlekids(andIalsoshowedthem

asIwasworkingwhatIwasdoing,soIdidn'twanttoscarethem)andthenIrealize

thatthislittlekidwassittinginachairanddrawingunderneathme.

Itiscuriousthatyouaresayingthat,becausePollockusedtosaythatalthoughhis

workwasabstract,therewasalwaysadegreeoffigurationinit.

KenJacobs:That'swhyIconsiderJoanMitchellagreaterartist.WhenPollockgave

upthedrips,neartheendofhiscareer,hereallybecameveryfigurative,andbegan

doingfaces,andthatwasterrible.JoanMitchellalwaysspokeaboutbeinginspired

bynature,butshenevercopiednature.Whenyoulookatherworkyouseepaint.

FloJacobs:Butyoucan'tsayanydifferentaboutPollock.


KenJacobs:Attheend,Pollockwasmakingfaces.

FloJacobs:Butthat'sdifferent,that’sanotherphase.

KenJacobs:Butthetendencywasalwaysthere.Heresistedit,buthealsogavein

toit.TheseguyswereveryimpressedbyPicasso.Picassoneverleftfiguration.Never

foramomenthestoppedpaintingthings,andthat’sfine.ButthebigdiscoveryIfeel

inwhattheyweredoingwasgettingtoseewhatjustpaintwoulddo.Letpaintbe

paint.Letitnotevokeorresemblethingsfromtheworld.Letitdowhatitcando.

Also,Hofmann,especially,madeoneveryverydepth-conscious.Ivaluehispaintings

becauseIseethemintheirstrongsuggestionsofdepth.Iworkinillusion.Actual

illusion,whichstrangelyenoughismoreeffectiveforoneeyethantwoeyes.Two

eyesyounormallyneedtoseedepth,sothis[heshowsaplateusedintheNervous

MagicLantern] is foroneeye.ButIdeviated.Imovedawayfrompaint…Actually,

thisispaint[heholdstheplateagain].I’mstillpainting,tomesurprise.Exceptthat

youdon’tseeitdirectly,youseeitsshadow.

AnotheraspectthatimpressedmealotintheNervousMagicLanternisthatwhile

watchingitoneexperienceslongdurations,butthesearecontinuallyinterrupted.

Thereistheextendedtime,theduration,andalso,throughtheflickeringeffect,the

repeated breaks. It is as if youwere throwing us into a paradox:we experience

durationandinterruptionatthesametime.

Oh,Ilovethat.Youarereallymakingmehappytohearthat!Ilikethatverymuch.

Youaregettingtheatomicstructureoftime,youknow?Yougetthispieceoftime,

thatpieceoftime,andthispieceoftime,andtheyarecombustinginfrontofyou.


NervousMagicLantern

Tom,Tom, thepiper’s son (1969-71) is yourbest-knownwork.The film received

considerablecriticalattention,andmuchofwhatwaspublishedaboutittendsto


emphasizetheanalyticalmovementsdeployedinit,associatingthefilmwithasort

ofarchaeologicalimpulse.I’vere-watcheditrecently,andforthefirsttimeinthe

movietheater,andwhatcaughtmyattentionwaslessthevisualanalysisprocedures

whichareusuallyhighlighted,but, intheabsenceofabetterword,adeeplove,a

deepdevotionforthoseimages.Iwonderifyoucouldtalkaboutwhat,specifically,

in that1905 film shotbyBillyBitzer attractedyou.Whatmadeyouappropriate

Bitzer’sfilmtocreateTom,Tom,thepiper’sson?

Thatwasit.Ilovethewomeninthemovie.Ilovetheirnecks.IloveitandIcouldn’t

let go afterwards.Wekeptworkingwith that inour liveperformances for years

afterwards.Wespent25years travelingwithveryheavyanalyticprojectorsand

lateronIwasableto findsomeotherwaysofshowing ita frameata time.Two

projectorssidebysideandtwoprintsofthesamefilm.Showingaframeortwo–

sometimes more – out of sync with each other. And so the similarities and

differences made for all kind of strange spaces. Aberrations. Uncanny, crazy –

“crazy” is the world, right? Crazy spaces. And they were beautiful to explore,

wonderfultoexplore.

Tom,Tom,thepiper’ssonisoftencreditedforhavinghelpedtotriggerawholenew

appreciationofearlycinema.Infact,withthisfilmyouarenoddingtotheplastic

richnessofthebeginningsofcinema,totheoriginsofcinemaasanartform.Onthe

otherhand,Tom,Tom,thepiper’ssonstrikesmeasanexperienceoffuturity.It’sa

1969 film that, in a sense, foresees our current relations with images, that

anticipatesourcommonshabitsasspectatorsinthedigitalera.Freezing,reframing,

zoominginandout,speedingupandslowingdown,goingbackandforth,messing

upwithanimagetothepointofdisfiguringit,turningitintoamassofgrainand

abstraction:it’sallalreadythereinyourfilm.

Ithinkso.Yes.Butit’sanactualexperienceofinvestigationintofilm.Theimageof

the filmandthe things thatmakeup the image.These littledotsandspaces that

makeuptheimage.Thesubatomicparticlesofavisualimage.Firstofall,Iwatched

itafewtimeswhenIfirstgotit.IthadbeenrescuedfromtheLibraryofCongress.

In order to hold on to a possessionof a film, you'd leave a paperprintwith the


LibraryofCongress.Andthensomeonecamealonginthesixties,fiftiesmaybe,and

he re-photographed the paper back onto film and then these things became

available.AndIhadbegunteachingatSaintJon’sUniversity.Bigcatholicschool,with

Ithink300students.Thewomenwithloweringstockings.Theyweresooppressed…

TheyweresoproperandIbeganshowingthemalltheseimproperthings[laughing].

AndI likedit.SothesefilmsbecameavailableandwiththeschoolbudgetIcould

rentthemandseethem.Mostofthemworthanything,butthatonewasamazing.It

wasjustanexplosion.Icouldn’tfollowthestory!Icouldnottellthemassofpeople.

Icouldnotbreakthemupintoindividuals.Ineversawthepigthatwasstolen!That

wasfascinating.

ThereisalsoapedagogyofvisionatplayinTom,Tom,thepiper’sson.Atfirst,you

showtheentireBitzer’s film,thenyoubreakitdownandanalyze it,youdoyour

experiment with it, and at the end you show us the original film again, from

beginningtoend.

Yes,that’sright.Butyouseeitdifferently.


TomTomthepiper’sson(1969-1971)

Also,intheexperimentwithPollockyou’vejustscreenedtome,youshowthe

“frames”youareusing.Whyisthisdemonstrationofthematerials,ofthe

procedures,importanttoyou?

KenJacobs:I’mtakingPollockforaride.Thepaintingisfantastic.Heisnotmaking

faceshere.Heislayingtubesofpaint.It’sanincrediblepainting.So,I'vegottomock

this point of departure, you know?And then I’mdoing a riff, a cinematic riff on

Pollock.Hewouldnotlikeit.Idon’tbelievehewouldhavelikedit.Idon’tbelieve

that JoanMitchellwould likewhat I dowithherwork.But it’s a very respectful

indignity.I’mlayingonthem.

FloJacobs: I’dliketosayhowmuchofthishascomefromHofmann.Theideaof

showing the source,making a version of yourwork and then having the source

lookedatagain.


KenJacobs:Goodquestion…Ican’tanswerthat…Oneoftheextraordinarythings

about studyingwithHofmannwaspeoplewerepainting very abstractworks, or

drawingveryabstractworks, but therewasalwaysamodel.Therewasamodel

holdingaposeforsometimesaweekortwoweeksatatime.Nonethemodelswere

pickedfortheirbeauty.Notholdinggracefulposessitting.Theywereusuallyheavy

models.Andtherewouldbejustasenseofweight,gravity,andtheworkswouldbe

departuresfromthis.Noonewasdrawingtomakeresemblances.Idon’tthinkyou

couldtell,whentheworkwasdone,thatthiswasfromamodel.Butitwasfroma

model. And Hofmann would be very critical if the model hadn’t been absorbed

enough,if,whateverdeparturesonedidinone’sownwork,theyweren’tbasedon

therealityofthemodelsittinginspace.Itwasveryconfusing.Iwrotesomething

aboutit.3So,ithadtodowiththemodelsittingthere,butyouareaftersomething

else. You were making a drawing, that is going to be the model, this truth you

discoveredaboutthemodelsittingonachair,sittinginspace,andyet,atthesame

time, not a likeness. It was something you were taking off from it, you were

expandingonit.

FloJacobs:Ihaveasuggestion.Maybeit’sevidencewhatHofmannwashavingyou

see. The evidence and then what comes from it and what one makes from the

evidence.

KenJacobs:See,Ithinkwhatwasimportanttohimwasgravity.Wearealwaysina

worldofgravityandneverleaveitforamoment.Itplaysahugepartinourlives,

whichfrominfancyweadaptto.Wedon’trealizethatgravityisatwork[heliftsa

spoonandlets it fallonthetable].Everythingisbeingpulledtothecenterofthe

globe.There’snorealdown,butthere’sthecenteroftheglobe.Thisisthereality.I

think about the image of the crucifix, a man suspended over this thing. The

suspensionisatorturebecausehe’snotbeenallowedtosuccumbtogravity.Hecan’t

gointhewaythatgravityispullinghim.

3Jacobsreferstotheessay“Hugechurningvistas,”availablehere:https://www.kenjacobsgallery.com/talks-interviews


That’saveryinterestingformalprincipleforartmaking:gravity

Ohmygod, it’stheprinciple.Soyouhadtothinkofthosethings.Evenwhenyou

didn’tsaythemyouputtheminaplaceinyourmindwhereyouhadtoconfront

thoserealities.

Youoftenrefertocinemaasawayofthinking.Inwhatsensedoescinema“think”?

Well,languageallowsustoformulateideasthatwecanpassfromonetotheother.

Butthemindiscapableofallkindsofthinking.Musiciansthinkwithsound,it’sfar

moreabstractwheretheygo.Theyarethinkinginsound.IheardsomeBeethoven

the other, I was just knocked out. The thinking that was taking place a couple

centuriesago.Whocouldoperatebetterinthisrealm?Yes,it’saformofthinking.

Inan interview in theearly1990s,yousaidwhencommentingonNissanAriana

Window(1969):“Oneofthethingsthatwasimportanttomeinmakingthisfilm,

andotherfilmsatthattime,wastomakepocketsofsanity,nottomakeanti-war

filmsthatweregoingtobeasfeverishaswaritself,buttomakepocketsofcalm,

serenity, and, tome, sanity.” Do you hold a similar feeling today?What kind of

responsedoesthecurrentmomentprovokeinyouasanartist?

Well,weareinacrazymoment.Republicanshavelosttheirsenses.Theyworkfor

theveryrich.Manydemocratsworkfortheveryrich.Weliveinaplutocracy.You

[Brazilians]liveinafasciststatenow.So,theyarenolongerfollowingtherules.The

ruleshavebeendiscarded.Thisisaboutwar,power,possession.

America,whichhasalwaysbeengrotesquelybrutal,nowisindangeroflosingeven

the congeniality that made life pleasant over here for many people. People in

exceptional circumstances, peoplewho are not brutally poor, not sick. Youwalk

throughthestreetsnowandyouseesomanybeggars,they’rebeggingformoney.

Thatwasn’ttrueIthinkeven10,15yearsago.AndthenAmericaisatwar,America

isalwaysatwar…


WhatwasIsaying?Oh,theislandsofsanity!Theislandsofsanityareverynecessary.

IthinkMatissehadthisideatoo,thatyoucouldseehispaintingandforgettheworld

around.Picassodidn’tletyouforgettheworldaround.AndIthinkitwastohismerit

thathecouldn’tforget.PicassocouldattendtothebrutalityoftheworldandMatisse

escapedit.ButIthinkthatI’mescapingtoo.InmostofmyworksIalsoescaped.But

Idoalotofworks,sosomethingslikeCapitalismChildLabor(2006)domakean

acknowledgmentofwhat’sgoingon.DidyouseeSeekingtheMonkeyKing(2011)?

That’sonmywebsite,it’sfree.ThoseworksallowmetodomyMatisseworks.But,

see,theseislesofsanity,theyarecriminal.Whoshouldreallyneglectwhatisgoing?

It’shorrendous.

NissanArianaWindow(1969)


SeekingtheMonkeyKing(2011)

CapitalismChildLabor(2006)

InyourlastperformanceattheMuseumoftheMovingImage,youpresentedanew

eternalism inspired by the activist Patricia Okoumou, who a month earlier had

climbed the feet of the Statue of Liberty to protest against the Trump

administration'sdetentionofimmigrantchildren.WhatinOkoumou’sgesturedrove

youtomakethishomageinyourwork?

Icanonlytellyou:absoluteneed.WhileIwasmakingthefilm,shedidtheclimbing.

So,ithappenedhere,atthismoment.Ishowyouthestatueofliberty,thesymbol

standingoutthere,andsomeoneputthatsymbolbacktolife.Shewentforwhatit

wassupposedtomean.Irespectedthat.

Yes, because the Statue of Liberty is a symbol that supposedly welcomes the

immigrants.

That’snotsupposedtobeatouristspot.It’stragic.Thisisthelight

Doyouappreciatethemonument?

KenJacobs:Ilikeitbecausealittlegirlweknowlikesit.

FloJacobs:It’swonderful.


KenJacobs:Ilikeit.Notthesculpture.

FloJacobs:Theinside.

KenJacobs:Theinsideiswonderfulengineering,buttheoutsideis…there’saword…There’saGermanword…

FloJacobs:Kitsch.

KenJacobs:Kitsch!

Iwouldliketohearalittlebitaboutyourexperienceasauniversityprofessor.Youtaughtformanyyears.

I'mtoldthatIcouldn'tteachtoday.Iwouldbeoffendingtoomanypeople.

Why?Whatwouldhappeninyourclassesthatwouldnotbeacceptabletoday?

Ken Jacobs: I’d discuss everything.Nothingwas forbidden. Therewas nothing Icouldnotdealwith.

FloJacobs:Youshouldsayyourstatementaboutbeingtouchy.

KenJacobs:Oh,yes:“Ifit’stouchywetouchit!”[laughing]

Didthestudentsfeelintimidatedinyourpresence?

Somewere,butothersadaptedandIthinkenjoyedthedialogue.

Yourworkcontinuouslychallengesourusualperceptualexperience.Wasthisdrivetochallengethespectator’shabitsinyourfilmstranslatedtoyourpedagogyintheclassroom?

In the classroom we were considering everything and I really wanted them

considered.Whatarewedoing?Whatarewelookingat?Whatisthisdealingwith?

Thingsaredeepifyouallowthem.Ifyougowiththem,theytakeyouintoallkinds

offorbiddenterritories,andwewent.


I’vebeenreadingaboutyourclassesinBinghamtonUniversity.Iloveyourcourse’s

titles: “Movies are notmade in heaven,” “RonaldReagan,” “Beginning Stupidity,”

“IntermediateStupidity,”“TerminalStupidity.”I’dlovetoseetheirsyllabuses.

We are immersed in stupidity, right? A big soup of stupidity! [laughing] These

courseswoulddealwith,youmightsay,theextravaganceofthemadnessofmany

movies.

Accordingtoyourformerstudents,inyourclassesyouwoulddiscussexperimental

anddocumentaryfilms,butalsoHollywoodblockbusterssuchasIndependenceDay

(1996)andGremlins2(1990).Academiatendstoignorethissortoffilm.Theyare

rarelytakeninconsiderationintheuniversityspace.Howdidyouapproachthese

filmsinyourclasses?Whatdiscussionsweresparkedbythosefilms?

Theymakeuppeople’sminds.Ifyouaretalkingtosomebody,youaretalkingtothat

fuckingmovie.Youshouldreallyseethemovieandanalyze it tounderstandthis

person. That is theirmind. Themovies aremakingupminds. People absorb the

movies,theydon’tthinkaboutthem,theyjustrepresentthemovies.

Soyourclassesalwayshadthiscommitmenttodiscussmainstreamcinema.

KenJacobs:Absolutely,yes.

FloJacobs:Hefeltobligatedtoseethesemoviesupuntilthetimethatheretired,

thenhesaidhecouldbefreeofthem.

Ken Jacobs: I haven'twatched a single “muscle film” in awhile. I'm retired. I'm

through.

FloJacobs:Butwe'veseensome3Dmovies.

KenJacobs:Yes,wewatchedsomethingveryimpressivethelasttime.Afuturistic

film,ofcourse.Idon'trememberthename…

FloJacobs:Insideout(2015)?


KenJacobs:Wow!Insideout(2015)wasverybrilliant.Itwasveryimpressive.But

nowwhatcouldbebetterthanlyinginbedandwatchingamovie?Imean,alarge

enoughTVscreen.It’swonderfullyclearandsharpandthereitis!Ifoneofushasto

gotothebathroom,westopthemovie,go,comeback,pickupthemovieagain.It’s

superconvenient.Whocannowgotothetheaters?Imean,it’swonderfultoseethe

bigscreen,butIneversharedthefeelingoftheherd.Ineverwaspartofthetheater

communitywatchingamovie.Whatevertheresponsewas,itwasnotcontagiousto

me. Iwasapart.So, this isnice, I’mwithmybest friendandwewatch incredible

things.

Whatareyourviewinghabitstoday?

Flosaystomeeachnight:‘WhatdoyouhaveinBlackandWhite?”

Whatdidyouwatchyesterday?

Pabst’sPandora'sBox(1929).Amazing.Imean,whataskill,whatexpressiveskill.

One lastquestion:what is yourmost remotememory?Theearliestmemoryyou

retainfromyourchildhood?

Irememberlyingnexttomymother–thisbig,warm,solidarea:mymother–and

listeningtothestreetbelowinBrooklyn.Cobblestones,horses,woodenwheels,and

theymadewonderfulsounds.Clop,clop,clop.Thatwasbeautiful.AndnowI'min

theageofthecomputer!Howdidthishappen?

the actual illusion: an interview with ken jacobs

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