Cynulliad Cenedlaethol CymruThe National Assembly for Wales

Cofnod y Trafodion The Record of Proceedings

Dydd Mercher, 10 Chwefror 2010Wednesday, 10 February 2010

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CynnwysContents

3 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig Questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

19 Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai Questions to the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

41 Atal Rheolau Sefydlog Suspension of Standing Orders

41 Ethol Aelodau i Bwyllgorau Election of Members to Committees

42 Enwebu Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru gan y Cynulliad Nomination by the Assembly of an Auditor General for Wales

44 Ethol Aelod i’r Pwyllgor Craffu ar Waith y Prif Weinidog Election of a Member to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister

45 Penodi Archwilwyr ar gyfer Cyfrifon Archwilydd Cenedlaethol Cymru Appointment of Auditors of the Accounts of the Auditor General for Wales

46 Atal Rheolau Sefydlog Suspension of Standing Orders

48 Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ar ei Ymchwiliad i’r Defnydd o Welyau Haul yng Nghymru a’u Rheoleiddio The Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s Report on its Inquiry into the Use and Regulation of Sunbeds in Wales

71 Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig: Fferyllfeydd CymunedolWelsh Conservatives Debate: Community Pharmacies

98 Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru: Anhwylder Straen Wedi TrawmaThe Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate: Post-traumatic Stress Disorder

122 Cyfnod Pleidleisio Voting Time

128 Dadl Fer: Parcffordd Gwent—Atebion Trafnidiaeth ar gyfer y Dyfodol Agos?Short Debate: Gwent Parkway—Transport Solutions for the Near Future?

Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y Siambr. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwyswyd cyfieithiad o’r areithiau hynny.

In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken in the Chamber. In the right-hand column, a translation of those speeches has been

included.

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Cyfarfu’r Cynulliad am 1.30 p.m. gyda’r Llywydd (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) yn y Gadair.The Assembly met at 1.30 p.m. with the Presiding Officer (Dafydd Elis-Thomas) in the Chair.

Y Llywydd: Trefn ar gyfer cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog cefn gwlad.

The Presiding Officer: Order for questions to the Minister for Rural Affairs.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros Faterion GwledigQuestions to the Minister for Rural Affairs

Y Llywydd: Trosglwyddwyd cwestiwn 1, OAQ(3)0941(RAF), i’w ateb yn ysgrifenedig.

The Presiding Officer: Question 1, OAQ(3)0941(RAF), transferred for written answer.

Cockling Industry Diwydiant Hel Cocos

Q2 Sandy Mewies: Will the Minister give an update on what is being done to ensure the cockling industry in north Wales is sustainable? OAQ(3)0966(RAF)

C2 Sandy Mewies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am yr hyn sy’n cael ei wneud i sicrhau bod y diwydiant hel cocos yng ngogledd Cymru yn gynaliadwy? OAQ(3)0966(RAF)

The Minister for Rural Affairs (Elin Jones): The Welsh Assembly Government continues to work with the regulatory bodies responsible for managing cockle fisheries in north Wales and also with key stakeholders to ensure that these fisheries are managed sustainably for the future.

Y Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig (Elin Jones): Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn parhau i weithio gyda’r cyrff rheoleiddio sy’n gyfrifol am reoli pysgodfeydd cocos yn y gogledd, a chyda rhanddeiliaid allweddol hefyd, er mwyn sicrhau bod y pysgodfeydd hynny’n cael eu rheoli’n gynaliadwy ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Sandy Mewies: As you are aware, three apprentice cockling licences have been issued for the 2010 season on the Dee estuary. I welcome that news. However, you will be very aware of the local dissatisfaction with the licence-issuing process last year. Will you ensure that the situation on the estuary is monitored and that, if licences are not in use, or become available, they are reissued quickly, preferably to local cocklers?

Sandy Mewies: Fel y gwyddoch, mae tair trwydded i brentisiaid hel cocos wedi’u cyflwyno ar gyfer tymor 2010 ar aber afon Dyfrdwy. Croesawaf y newydd hwnnw. Fodd bynnag, byddwch yn ymwybodol iawn o’r anfodlonrwydd lleol am y broses cyflwyno trwyddedau y llynedd. A wnewch chi sicrhau y bydd y sefyllfa ar yr aber yn cael ei monitro ac y bydd trwyddedau, os na chânt eu defnyddio neu os byddant ar gael, yn cael eu hailgyflwyno’n gyflym, o ddews i helwyr cocos lleol?

Elin Jones: I am pleased, like you, that three young people are to be issued with apprenticeship licences. That is a positive development for the future of cockling on the Dee. I am very aware of your concerns on behalf of your constituents and Carl Sargeant’s constituents, who were affected by decisions last year to limit the number of licences on the Dee. I will ensure that the Environment Agency, which regulates this fishery on our behalf, monitors closely the

Elin Jones: Yr wyf fi, fel chithau, yn falch y bydd tri unigolyn ifanc yn cael trwyddedau prentisiaeth. Mae hynny’n ddatblygiad cadarnhaol ar gyfer dyfodol hel cocos ar afon Dyfrdwy. Yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn o’ch pryderon ar ran eich etholwyr ac etholwyr Carl Sargeant, yr effeithiwyd arnynt gan benderfyniadau a wnaed y llynedd i gyfyngu nifer y trwyddedau ar afon Dyfrdwy. Gwnaf yn siŵr fod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, sy’n rheoleiddio’r bysgodfa hon ar ein rhan, yn

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use of the 50 licences in operation and ensures that if any licences are not being used they are reallocated, if that is appropriate.

monitro’n agos sut y defnyddir caiff yr 50 o drwyddedau sy’n weithredol ac yn sicrhau bod unrhyw drwyddedau na ddefnyddir yn cael eu hailddyrannu, os yw hynny’n briodol.

Mark Isherwood: I, too, have been approached by constituents affected by this and have had meetings with them and the Environment Agency, as well as discussions in my own office with them and the local county councillor. I understand that the problems related to a failure to submit documentary evidence relating to income from fishing and other occupations for 2005. Subsequently, the Environment Agency advised my constituents, via me, that if they had any new information that might change their applications, it would be happy to review the situation. However, when they were in process of preparing that information, the Environment Agency stated that it had recently received legal advice that if it were to allow further representations at that late stage, it would have to offer the same opportunity to everyone else. What actions, if any, could you take to enable the agency to consider such applications, were such evidence available, so that they could have priority on a waiting list in the circumstances to which Sandy referred?

Mark Isherwood: Mae etholwyr yr effeithiodd hynny arnynt wedi cysylltu â mi hefyd, ac yr wyf wedi cael cyfarfodydd â hwy ac Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, ac wedi cael trafodaethau yn fy swyddfa fy hun â hwy a’r cynghorydd sir lleol. Deallaf fod y problemau’n gysylltiedig â methu cyflwyno tystiolaeth ddogfennol am incwm o bysgota a galwedigaethau eraill ar gyfer 2005. O ganlyniad, hysbysodd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd fy etholwyr, drwof fi, y byddai’n barod i adolygu’r sefyllfa pe bai ganddynt wybodaeth newydd a allai newid eu ceisiadau. Fodd bynnag, wrth iddynt baratoi’r wybodaeth honno, dywedodd Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd ei bod wedi cael cyngor cyfreithiol yn ddiweddar, sef y byddai’n rhaid iddi gynnig yr un cyfle i bawb arall pe bai’n caniatáu sylwadau pellach yn ystod y cam hwyr hwnnw. Pa gamau gweithredu, os o gwbl, y gallech eu cymryd ac a fyddai’n galluogi’r asiantaeth i ystyried ceisiadau o’r fath pe bai tystiolaeth o’r fath ar gael, er mwyn iddynt allu cael blaenoriaeth ar restr aros dan yr amgylchiadau y cyfeiriodd Sandy atynt?

Elin Jones: You are obviously well aware that the issue around cockle licences on the Dee has been one of longstanding contention and has also been subject to a public inquiry. I have had meetings with some of the unsuccessful applicants for licences, and some of the issues that you have raised have been raised with me. I consider that the Environment Agency has undertaken its duties efficiently on this matter, but I understand completely that cockle fishermen who are not successful in obtaining a licence will feel aggrieved at the decision.

Elin Jones: Mae’n amlwg eich bod yn gwybod yn iawn fod trwyddedau hel cocos ar afon Dyfrdwy wedi bod yn destun cynnen ers amser maith, ac yn destun ymchwiliad cyhoeddus hefyd. Yr wyf wedi cael cyfarfodydd â rhai o’r ymgeiswyr aflwyddiannus am drwyddedau, ac mae rhai o’r materion a godwyd gennych wedi’u codi gyda mi hefyd. Credaf fod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd wedi cyflawni ei dyletswyddau’n effeithlon yn y mater hwn, ond gallaf ddeall yn iawn y bydd pysgotwyr cocos nad ydynt yn llwyddo i gael trwydded yn anfodlon am y penderfyniad.

Joyce Watson: With the Environment Agency still investigating the cause of cockle mortality in the Burry inlet and Loughor estuary, what discussions have you had with the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing in relation to the Machynys West housing development in Llanelli?

Joyce Watson: O ystyried bod Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd yn parhau i ymchwilio i achos marwolaeth cocos yng nghilfach Porth Tywyn ac aber afon Llwchwr, pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda'r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai ynglŷn â’r datblygiad tai yng Ngorllewin Machynys yn Llanelli?

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Elin Jones: I have had no discussions with the Minister for environment on the housing development to which you refer.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cael dim trafodaethau gyda’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd am y datblygiad tai y cyfeiriwch ato.

The Presiding Officer: Order. The original question relates to north Wales. I do not think that includes Burry Port, but you never know.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Trefn. Mae’r cwestiwn gwreiddiol yn ymwneud â’r gogledd. Ni chredaf fod hynny’n cynnwys Porth Tywyn, ond pwy a ŵyr.

Janet Ryder: Will you give a commitment that rogue cocklers, who operate without a licence, will be prosecuted, and do you have any information on how that would happen?

Janet Ryder: A wnewch chi addo y bydd helwyr cocos anghyfreithlon sy’n gweithredu heb drwydded yn cael eu herlyn, ac a oes gennych wybodaeth sut y byddai hynny’n digwydd?

Elin Jones: I would expect that anyone taking part in cockle gathering without a licence would be prosecuted. I understand that, since the Order was implemented in 2008, there have been two successful prosecutions to date, and that there are a few other prosecutions in the pipeline.

Elin Jones: Byddwn yn disgwyl i bawb sy’n hel cocos heb drwydded gael eu herlyn. Ers i’r Gorchymyn gael ei weithredu yn 2008, deallaf fod dau erlyniad llwyddiannus wedi digwydd hyd yma, a bod rhai erlyniadau eraill yn mynd rhagddynt ar hyn o bryd.

Farming Ffermio

Q3 Angela Burns: Will the Minister make a statement on her vision for the future of farming in Wales? OAQ(3)0943(RAF)

C3 Angela Burns: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei gweledigaeth ar gyfer dyfodol ffermio yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0943(RAF)

Elin Jones: My strategy, ‘Farming, Food & Countryside: Building a secure future’, sets out a clear vision of Welsh farming being at the heart of a sustainable countryside and a profitable rural economy. That means being able to meet future challenges and take advantage of the opportunities presented in an increasingly volatile and globalised economy.

Elin Jones: Mae fy strategaeth, ‘Ffermio, Bwyd a Chefn Gwlad: Creu dyfodol cadarn’, yn cyflwyno gweledigaeth glir lle byddai ffermio yng Nghymru yn ganolog i gefn gwlad cynaliadwy ac economi wledig broffidiol. Mae hynny’n golygu gallu wynebu heriau yn y dyfodol a manteisio ar y cyfleoedd a gyflwynir mewn economi sy’n fwyfwy cyfnewidiol a byd-eang.

Angela Burns: Farmers’ ability to meet those future challenges will depend, in part, on their having access to the latest technologies and an understanding of the way that farming should progress. Much of that will come from Aberystwyth University’s Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences. I am sure that you aware that 70 jobs are at risk at the institute, because it has a £2.4 million deficit, and it will have a 15 per cent cut in funding from the Government. This news comes just after the university announced investment plans worth

Angela Burns: Bydd gallu ffermwyr i wynebu’r heriau hynny yn y dyfodol yn dibynnu’n rhannol ar sicrhau eu bod yn gallu cael y technolegau diweddaraf a’u bod yn deall y ffordd y dylai ffermio ddatblygu. Daw llawer o hynny o Sefydliad y Gwyddorau Biolegol, Amgylcheddol a Gwledig (IBERS) ym Mhrifysgol Aberystwyth. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn ymwybodol bod 70 o swyddi mewn perygl yn y sefydliad, oherwydd mae ganddo ddiffyg ariannol o £2.4 miliwn, a bydd y Llywodraeth yn torri ei gyllid 15 y cant. Daw’r newydd hwn yn fuan wedi i’r

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£55 million, aimed at making it one of the top three institutions in the world in land-based sciences. Minister, what discussions will you have, or have you had, with your colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government, or in Westminster, on how we can preserve what would be a leading light among universities throughout the world?

brifysgol gyhoeddi cynlluniau buddsoddi gwerth £55 miliwn, gyda’r nod o’i gwneud yn un o’r tri sefydliad amlycaf yn y byd ym maes gwyddorau’r tir. Weinidog, pa drafodaethau y byddwch yn eu cael, neu yr ydych wedi’u cael, gyda’ch cydweithwyr yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, neu yn San Steffan, am y modd y gallwn ddiogelu sefydliad a fyddai’n flaenllaw ymhlith prifysgolion ledled y byd?

Elin Jones: I have had discussions with the authorities in Aberystwyth as an Assembly Member representing that area, and I know that my colleague Leighton Andrews, the Minister for Children, Education and Lifelong Learning, is also in discussions with the university. The Assembly Government has invested significantly in the future development of the institute in Aberystwyth to ensure that it is taking on the challenges that can make it a world-leading institute on grassland and rural research. It is essential that the news to which you referred does not detract in any way from the institute’s ability to meet the aspiration that this Government has set for it.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf wedi cael trafodaethau gyda’r awdurdodau yn Aberystwyth fel Aelod Cynulliad sy’n cynrychioli’r ardal honno, a gwn fod fy nghydweithiwr, Leighton Andrews, y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, hefyd yn cael trafodaethau gyda’r brifysgol. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi buddsoddi’n helaeth yn natblygiad y sefydliad yn Aberystwyth ar gyfer y dyfodol, er mwyn sicrhau ei fod yn mynd i’r afael â’r heriau a all ei wneud yn sefydliad sy’n arwain y byd mewn ymchwil ar laswelltir a materion gwledig. Mae’n hollbwysig na fydd y newydd y cyfeiriech ato yn tynnu dim sylw oddi ar allu’r sefydliad i gyflawni’r uchelgais a bennwyd ar ei gyfer gan y Llywodraeth hon.

Nerys Evans: Weinidog, gwyddoch fod bwrdd yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd wedi penderfynu gofyn am newid i gyfraith Ewrop, sydd ar hyn o bryd yn datgan fod ‘smokies’ yn anghyfreithlon. Yr ydym i gyd yn gwybod am sefyllfa ffermwr yng Nghymru sydd wedi’i garcharu am gynhyrchu cig yn y modd hwn. Hoffwn ofyn am eich barn a’ch ymateb i’r newyddion fod yr Asiantaeth Safonau Bwyd yn gofyn am newid i gyfraith Ewrop ynghylch y mater hwn.

Nerys Evans: Minister, you will know that the Food Standards Agency has decided to ask for a change in European law that currently states that smokies are illegal. We all know about the Welsh farmer who has been imprisoned for producing meat in this way. I should like to ask your opinion and your response to the news that the Food Standards Agency is asking for a change in European law on this matter.

Elin Jones: Yr oedd yn galonogol gweld yr adroddiad a phenderfyniad yr asiantaeth ar gyfreithloni’r fasnach o ‘smokies’. Gallaf gadarnhau bod yr asiantaeth wedi gwneud cais i’r Llywodraeth drwy Gwenda Thomas, y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Wasanaethau Cymdeithasol, am ganiatâd i fynd i’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd er mwyn datblygu’r hawl i gyfreithloni ‘smokies’. Gallaf hefyd gadarnhau fod Gwenda Thomas, yr wythnos diwethaf, wedi cadarnhau i’r asiantaeth bod modd iddi gymryd y camau hynny.

Elin Jones: It was encouraging to see the report and the agency’s decision on the legalisation on marketing smokies. I can confirm that the agency has made an application to the Government through Gwenda Thomas, the Deputy Minister for Social Services, for permission to go to the European Commission to develop the right to legalise smokies. I can also confirm that, last week, Gwenda Thomas confirmed to the agency that it could take those steps.

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Brynle Williams: I will go back to the question posed by my colleague Angela Burns regarding IBERS in Aberystwyth. Among the greatest challenges facing agriculture in the years ahead are the doubling of food demand by 2030 and the global population hitting some 9 billion by 2050. Do you agree that the work carried out at IBERS—to breed crops and develop the practices needed to meet those challenges, especially in developing countries—is that of a world-leading plant research station? Could it not be the most important contribution that Wales will make to the world in the decades ahead? Yesterday, we had a very important vote in this Chamber to take Wales forward; this also takes us forward—in my area of work, anyway. Can you give me an assurance that you will make all efforts in your discussions with your ministerial colleagues here, with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and with the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council, to ensure that the institution receives the funding that it needs? I know you have answered the question in part.

Brynle Williams: Hoffwn ddychwelyd at y cwestiwn a ofynnwyd gan fy nghydweithiwr, Angela Burns, ynglŷn ag IBERS yn Aberystwyth. Un o’r heriau mwyaf a fydd yn wynebu’r byd amaeth yn y blynyddoedd i ddod yw’r ffaith y bydd y galw am fwyd yn dyblu erbyn 2030 ac y bydd poblogaeth y byd tua 9 biliwn erbyn 2050. A ydych yn cytuno bod y gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud yn IBERS—i dyfu cnydau a datblygu’r arferion y mae eu hangen i ateb yr heriau hynny, yn arbennig mewn gwledydd sy’n datblygu—yn waith i leoliad sy’n arwain y byd ym maes ymchwil planhigion? Oni allai fod yn gyfraniad pwysicaf Cymru i’r byd yn ystod y degawdau nesaf? Ddoe, cawsom bleidlais bwysig iawn yma yn y Siambr i symud Cymru ymlaen; mae hyn hefyd yn ein symud ymlaen—yn fy maes gwaith i, o leiaf. A allwch roi sicrwydd imi y byddwch yn gwneud pob ymdrech yn eich trafodaethau gyda’ch cydweithwyr sy’n Weinidogion yma, a chyda’r Adran dros yr Amgylchedd, Bwyd a Materion Gwledig, a chyda’r Cyngor Ymchwil Biotechnoleg a Gwyddorau Biolegol, i sicrhau bod y sefydliad yn cael y cyllid y mae arno ei angen? Gwn eich bod wedi ateb y cwestiwn yn rhannol.

1.40 p.m.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr gyda chi, Brynle, fod gan IBERS rôl allweddol o ran cyflawni amcanion y Llywodraeth hon, yn ogystal â delio â’r sialensiau sy’n wynebu’r byd o ran cynhyrchu bwyd mewn ffordd effeithiol i’r dyfodol. Mae’n holl bwysig, o ran ymrwymiad a buddsoddiad y Llywodraeth yn IBERS a’r buddsoddiad y mae IBERS yn ei dderbyn o du allan i Gymru, bod ei waith yn cael ei gydnabod a’i hyrwyddo’n fyd-eang a’i fod o fudd i gymdeithas ac economi Cymru hefyd.

Elin Jones: I totally agree with you, Brynle, that IBERS has a key role to play in the delivery of the Government’s aims, as well as in dealing with the challenges facing the world in terms of effective food production for the future. It is crucial, in terms of the Government’s commitment and investment in IBERS and the investment that IBERS receives from outside Wales, that its work is recognised and promoted world-wide and that it also benefits Welsh society and our economy.

Brynle Williams: Ensuring a successful future for agriculture in Wales requires that we address the demographic challenges of the industry. I am sure that you appreciate that there are high hopes for your new young entrants support scheme, Minister. Can you provide us with an update on progress in promoting this scheme? In particular, how many applicants have been attracted to the scheme since the eligibility criteria were

Brynle Williams: Mae sicrhau dyfodol llwyddiannus i amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru yn golygu bod angen inni fynd i’r afael â heriau demograffig y diwydiant. Yr wyf yn siŵr eich bod yn sylweddoli bod gan bobl obeithion mawr am eich cynllun cymorth i newydd-ddyfodiaid, Weinidog. A allwch roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf inni am y cynnydd wrth hyrwyddo’r cynllun hwn? Yn benodol, faint o ymgeiswyr sydd wedi

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widened in November? Could you also give an indication as to how many additional new entrants will take over farm businesses as a direct result of the scheme, and will that be used as a measure of its success?

dangos diddordeb yn y cynllun ers ehangu’r meini prawf cymhwysedd ym mis Tachwedd? A allech roi syniad hefyd faint o newydd-ddyfodiaid ychwanegol a fydd yn cymryd busnesau fferm o ganlyniad uniongyrchol i’r cynllun, ac a fydd hynny’n cael ei ddefnyddio fel mesur o’i lwyddiant?

Elin Jones: Mae fy swyddogion wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd ledled Cymru i hyrwyddo’r cynllun cymorth i newydd-ddyfodiaid. Mae’r dyddiad cau ar gyfer ceisiadau’r rownd gyntaf yn ystod mis Mawrth, felly nid oes gennyf ffigurau ar nifer y ceisiadau eto. Yr ydym hefyd wrthi’n recriwtio, ar y cyd gyda clybiau ffermwyr ifanc, hwylusydd i weithio gyda newydd-ddyfodiaid ar ddatblygu cynlluniau busnes. Caiff rhywun ei penodi i’r swydd honno yn y dyfodol agos, gobeithio.

Elin Jones: My officers have held meetings across Wales to promote the young entrants support scheme. The closing date for the first round of applications is in March, so I do not have figures on the number of applications as yet. We are also recruiting a facilitator, with the young farmers’ clubs, to work with young entrants on developing business plans. We are hopeful that someone will be appointed to that post in the near future.

Lorraine Barrett: Minister, will you look carefully at the survey that the Imperial College London and the Zoological Society of London has published on badger culling? Their conclusion is that bovine TB returned to its original level four years after the culling programme ended. I have seen the comments of your chief veterinarian, but I ask you to look carefully at what these eminent scientists are saying, which is that the cull that you propose will not be cost-effective. I am not interested so much in the cost, but the fact is that unless the cull is sustained and more widespread it will not work, and, could, in fact, make the situation worse.

Lorraine Barrett: Weinidog, a wnewch chi edrych yn ofalus ar yr arolwg y mae Coleg Imperial Llundain a Chymdeithas Söolegol Llundain wedi’i gyhoeddi ar ddifa moch daear? Eu casgliad yw bod TB gwartheg wedi dychwelyd i’w lefel wreiddiol bedair blynedd ar ôl i’r rhaglen ddifa ddod i ben. Yr wyf wedi gweld sylwadau eich prif swyddog milfeddygol, ond gofynnaf ichi edrych yn ofalus ar yr hyn y mae’r gwyddonwyr amlwg dan sylw’n ei ddweud, sef na fydd y rhaglen ddifa yr ydych yn ei chynnig yn gost-effeithiol. Nid oes gennyf gymaint o ddiddordeb â hynny yn y gost, ond oni fydd y rhaglen ddifa’n rhaglen barhaus ac ehangach o lawer, ni fydd yn gweithio, ac mewn gwirionedd gallai wneud y sefyllfa’n waeth.

Elin Jones: I am aware of the report. I have not had an opportunity to read it as yet, but I will do so. It is important that we realise that the report refers to an analysis of the trials conducted in England. What we are undertaking in Wales is not a replica of those trials, although we will learn lessons from them. Our approach is unique, because in the area where we will be undertaking a badger cull we are also undertaking strict cattle measures, which were not part of the trials in England. Therefore, I would not be able to directly apply any conclusions of the report to the work that we will be undertaking in Wales.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r adroddiad. Nid wyf wedi cael cyfle i’w ddarllen eto, ond byddaf yn gwneud hynny. Mae’n bwysig inni sylweddoli bod yr adroddiad yn cyfeirio at ddadansoddiad o’r treialon a gynhaliwyd yn Lloegr. Nid yw’r hyn yr ydym yn ei wneud yma yng Nghymru yn union yr un fath â’r treialon hynny, er y byddwn yn dysgu gwersi ohonynt. Mae ein dull gweithredu ni’n unigryw, oherwydd yn yr ardal lle byddwn yn difa moch daear byddwn hefyd yn rhoi mesurau llym ar waith yng nghyswllt gwartheg, nad oeddent yn rhan o’r treialon yn Lloegr. Felly, ni allwn gymhwyso unrhyw gasgliadau sydd yn yr adroddiad yn uniongyrchol i’r gwaith y byddwn ni’n ei wneud yng Nghymru.

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Alun Davies: I would like to take you back to the answers that you gave to Brynle Williams and Angela Burns on IBERS. I know of your long-standing commitment to research in Aberystwyth—that has been noted by the university itself and by many others over the years. I also recognise the commitment that you have made to speak to the Minister of education about the future of the institution in Aberystwyth. One thing that you could do within your own brief is to create a policy environment in which IBERS can flourish in the future. We are both aware that it has said on numerous occasions that the current ban on genetic modification experimentation in Wales is holding back not only IBERS, but other, similar institutions in Wales. Perhaps if you revisited that ban you could create a policy environment in which IBERS and others could flourish.

Alun Davies: Hoffwn fynd â chi’n ôl at yr atebion a roesoch i Brynle Williams ac Angela Burns am IBERS. Gwn am eich ymrwymiad ers amser i ymchwil yn Aberystwyth—mae’r brifysgol ei hun wedi cydnabod hynny ynghyd â nifer o bobl eraill dros y blynyddoedd. Yr wyf hefyd yn cydnabod eich ymrwymiad i siarad â’r Gweinidog dros addysg ynglŷn â dyfodol y sefydliad yn Aberystwyth. Un peth y gallech ei wneud yn eich brîff eich hun yw creu amgylchedd polisi lle gall IBERS ffynnu yn y dyfodol. Gwyddoch chi a minnau iddo ddweud droeon bod y gwaharddiad presennol ar arbrofion addasu genetig yng Nghymru yn llesteirio nid yn unig IBERS ond sefydliadau eraill tebyg yng Nghymru. Pe baech efallai’n ailystyried y gwaharddiad hwnnw, gallech greu amgylchedd polisi lle gallai IBERS ac eraill ffynnu.

Elin Jones: Mae rhaid imi ddweud nad wyf wedi cael unrhyw gais uniongyrchol oddi wrth IBERS i’r Llywodraeth newid y polisi ar GM er mwyn hyrwyddo ei waith. Nid wyf yn meddwl ei fod yn edrych i’r Llywodraeth hon yng Nghymru i wneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Mae gan y Cynulliad a’r Llywodraeth hon bwerau ar rai o’r materion GM hyn, ond ar rai eraill, mae’r pwerau yn gorwedd ar lefel Ewropeaidd.

Elin Jones: I have to say that I have not had any direct requests from IBERS for this Government to change the policy on GM in order to promote its work. I do not believe it is currently looking to the Welsh Government to do so. The Assembly and the Government here hold powers over some of these GM issues, but on others, the powers lie at a European level.

Priorities Blaenoriaethau

Q4 Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on her portfolio priorities for the next six months? OAQ(3)0949(RAF)

C4 Andrew R.T. Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei blaenoriaethau portffolio ar gyfer y chwe mis nesaf? OAQ(3)0949(RAF)

Elin Jones: I remain committed to delivering the objectives set out in ‘One Wales’ and working to deliver sustainable farming, forestry, food and fisheries industries for the benefit of Wales and rural communities.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn dal wedi ymrwymo i gyflawni’r amcanion a nodwyd yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ a gweithio i ddarparu diwydiannau ffermio, coedwigaeth, bwyd a physgodfeydd cynaliadwy er budd Cymru a chymunedau gwledig.

Andrew R.T. Davies: One of the great obstacles for many young people coming into the agricultural industry is the difficulty in accessing education and training in rural enterprise. Not so long ago we had a wealth of land-based further education colleges in Wales, but for understandable reasons, many have now merged with larger organisations.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Un o’r rhwystrau mawr i nifer o bobl ifanc sy’n dod i mewn i’r diwydiant amaeth yw’r anhawster i fanteisio ar addysg a hyfforddiant ym maes mentrau gwledig. Ychydig amser yn ôl, yr oedd gennym lu o golegau addysg bellach yn ymwneud â’r tir yng Nghymru, ond am resymau dealladwy mae nifer ohonynt wedi

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What discussions are you having with your colleague the Minister for Children, Education and Lifelong Learning to establish local education and learning provision so that students do not have to travel great distances to Gelli Aur College, for example, to undertake a course in dairy management?

uno â sefydliadau mwy erbyn hyn. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych yn eu cael gyda’ch cydweithiwr, y Gweinidog dros Blant, Addysg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, i sefydlu darpariaeth addysg a dysgu sy’n lleol fel nad oes raid i fyfyrwyr deithio pellteroedd mawr i Goleg Gelli Aur, er enghraifft, i ddilyn cwrs ar reoli ffermydd godro?

Elin Jones: I have not had direct representations on the need to establish training across a wider geographical base than that available at the current land-based colleges. However, I would like to take this opportunity to stress the excellent work that our current colleges are doing. During my visits to those colleges for their prize-giving awards, I have been highly impressed by the enthusiasm and the numbers of young people interested in agriculture, as well as land-based courses such as forestry and timber courses. The enthusiasm of that cohort of young people is hugely impressive for me as a Minister, as is their interest in working on the land in Wales.

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cael dim sylwadau uniongyrchol fod angen sefydlu hyfforddiant ar draws ardaloedd daearyddol sy’n ehangach na’r ardaloedd a wasanaethir gan y colegau presennol sy’n ymwneud â’r tir. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i dynnu sylw at y gwaith gwych y mae ein colegau presennol yn ei wneud. Yn ystod fy ymweliadau â’r colegau hynny ar gyfer eu digwyddiadau cyflwyno gwobrau, mae brwdfrydedd a niferoedd y bobl ifanc sydd â diddordeb mewn amaethyddiaeth wedi creu argraff fawr arnaf, yn ogystal â chyrsiau ar ddiwydiannau’r tir, megis cyrsiau coedwigaeth a thrin coed. Mae brwdfrydedd y bobl ifanc hyn, yn ogystal â’u diddordeb mewn gweithio ar y tir yng Nghymru, yn wirioneddol wefreiddiol i mi fel Gweinidog.

Chris Franks: What discussions have you had with public bodies regarding biodiversity, and specifically, what discussions have taken place with local councils about consideration of the natural environment and wildlife in their decision making? You will be aware that 40 bird species were found to have declined in number in the year 2000, and unfortunately, we do not appear to have addressed this problem adequately. These are vital matters, and the loss of lapwings, yellow hammers and curlews has been especially marked, with a fall of 81 per cent in the curlew population since 1996. What discussions have you had about this matter? As you know, bird-life can be a great tourist attraction and can inject much needed income into our rural communities.

Chris Franks: Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael ggyda chyrff cyhoeddus ynglŷn â bioamrywiaeth, ac yn benodol, pa drafodaethau sydd wedi bod gyda chynghorau lleol ynglŷn ag ystyried yr amgylchedd naturiol a bywyd gwyllt wrth iddynt wneud penderfyniadau? Gwyddoch fod niferoedd 40 o rywogaethau adar wedi gostwng yn y flwyddyn 2000, ac yn anffodus ymddengys nad ydym wedi mynd i’r afael â’r broblem hon yn ddigonol. Mae’r rhain yn faterion hollbwysig, ac mae colli’r cornicyll, y bras melyn a’r gylfinir wedi bod yn ddatblygiad arbennig o amlwg, gyda gostyngiad o 81 y cant yn nifer y gylfinirod er 1996. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael am y mater hwn? Fel y gwyddoch, gall y byd adar fod yn atyniad gwych i dwristiaid, a gall ychwanegu incwm y mae ei angen yn fawr ar ein cymunedau gwledig.

Elin Jones: I have had no discussions directly with local authorities on these matters. Those discussions are had by my colleague Jane Davidson. However, I do have discussions with a number of organisations and my own officials on our contribution to

Elin Jones: Nid wyf wedi cael trafodaethau uniongyrchol gydag awdurdodau lleol am y materion hyn. Fy nghydweithiwr, Jane Davidson, sy’n cael y trafodaethau hynny. Fodd bynnag, byddaf yn cael trafodaethau gyda nifer o sefydliadau a’m swyddogion fy

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enhancing biodiversity, especially now that we are preparing prescriptions within the Glastir scheme, where a number of the issues that you refer to will be taken up as part of the land-management prescription. Hopefully we will see farmers interested and engaged, and wanting Glastir to make a positive impact on their land in terms of preserving and enhancing biodiversity.

hun am ein cyfraniad i wella bioamrywiaeth, yn enwedig yn awr o gofio’n bod wrthi’n paratoi amodau yn y cynllun Glastir, lle bydd nifer o’r materion y cyfeiriwcho atynt yn cael eu cynnwys fel rhan o’r amod rheoli tir. Y gobaith yw y gwelwn ffermwyr yn ymddiddori ac yn ymwneud â Glastir, ac y byddant am i’r cynllun gael effaith gadarnhaol ar eu tir o ran diogelu a gwella bioamrywiaeth.

The Future of Rural Communities Dyfodol Cymunedau Gwledig

Q5 Andrew R.T. Davies: What discussions has the Minister had with ministerial colleagues on the future of rural communities? OAQ(3)0950(RAF)

C5 Andrew R.T. Davies: Pa drafodaethau y mae’r Gweinidog wedi’u cael gyda’i chyd-Weinidogion ynghylch dyfodol cymunedau gwledig? OAQ(3)0950(RAF)

Elin Jones: I regularly discuss the needs of our rural communities with colleagues and seek opportunities to work with them wherever possible, most recently in responding to the findings of the deep rural localities report.

Elin Jones: Byddaf wyf yn trafod anghenion ein cymunedau gwledig yn rheolaidd gyda chydweithwyr, ac yn ceisio cael cyfleoedd i weithio gyda hwy pryd bynnag y bydd yn bosibl. Daeth y cyfle diweddaraf wrth ymateb i ddarganfyddiadau’r adroddiad ar ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell.

1.50 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: In the last round of environment, planning and sustainability questions, I raised the issue of technical advice note 6 and its importance to rural communities and to people’s ability to make use of the positive approaches that the consultation document outlined. What discussions have you had with your colleague to try to advance TAN 6 so that it comes into planning guidance for planning authorities? Two years or so have passed since the initial announcement, and there are many people who are anxiously awaiting the final conclusions of the process to start to implement that policy on the ground.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yn ystod y cylch diwethaf o gwestiynau am yr amgylchedd, cynllunio a chynaliadwyedd, codais fater nodyn cyngor technegol 6, a’i bwysigrwydd i gymunedau gwledig a gallu pobl i ddefnyddio’r dulliau gweithredu cadarnhaol a amlinellwyd yn y ddogfen ymgynghori. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda’ch cydweithiwr i geisio datblygu TAN 6 er mwyn ei gynnwys mewn canllawiau cynllunio ar gyfer awdurdodau cynllunio? Mae tua dwy flynedd ers y cyhoeddiad gwreiddiol, ac mae nifer o bobl yn aros yn bryderus am gasgliadau terfynol y broses er mwyn dechrau gweithredu’r polisi hwnnw ar lawr gwlad.

Elin Jones: I have had many discussions with Jane Davidson, the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, and her officials on the content of TAN 6. I have had no discussions since you last questioned me on this matter, but I am aware that there is a question to the Minister on housing in rural areas in a few minutes’ time, therefore you may want to take the opportunity to ask her that question yourself.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf wedi cael nifer o drafodaethau gyda Jane Davidson, y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai, a’i swyddogion am gynnwys TAN 6. Nid wyf wedi cael dim trafodaethau ers ichi fy holi ddiwethaf am y mater hwn, ond gwn y bydd y Gweinidog yn cael cwestiwn am dai mewn ardaloedd gwledig ymhen ychydig funudau. Felly, efallai yr hoffech fanteisio ar y cyfle i ofyn y

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cwestiwn hwnnw iddi eich hun.

Eleanor Burnham: Gwyddoch, Weinidog, oherwydd eich bod yn byw yng nghefn gwlad, bod diffyg cyfleusterau a chwtogi ar nifer o wasanaethau ar draws Cymru yn y gorffennol, gan gynnwys cwtogi ar wasanaethau trafnidiaeth, cwtogi a chau swyddfeydd post a siopau a chau ysgolion. Sut ydych yn gwarchod y gwasanaethau sydd ar gael ac yn sicrhau nad oes mwy o gwtogi a sut ydych yn bwriadu integreiddio hyn ar draws y gwahanol bortffolios gyda’ch cyd-Weinidogion?

Eleanor Burnham: You will know, Minister, since you live in the countryside, of the lack of facilities and the cuts in a number of services across Wales in the past, including cuts in transport services, cuts and closures of post offices and shops and school closures. How are you protecting the services that are available and ensuring that there will be no further cuts, and how do you intend to integrate that across the different portfolios with your ministerial colleagues?

Elin Jones: Os gallaf eich cywiro, Eleanor, nid wyf yn byw yng nghefn gwlad, yr wyf yn byw mewn tref, ond yr wyf, wrth gwrs, yn cynrychioli ardal wledig. Dylwn ateb eich cwestiwn drwy gyfeirio at y gwaith yr ydym wedi’i gomisiynu, megis yr adroddiad yr ydym wedi’i gyhoeddi ar fyw ym mherfeddion cefn gwlad, a bydd dadl ar y materion hyn yn y Cynulliad yn yr wythnosau nesaf. Mae’r Llywodraeth yn ymateb i’r adroddiad hwnnw, ac yr wyf wedi trafod gyda’m cyd-Weinidogion y materion a godwyd—megis y rhai a amlinellwyd gennych, a oedd hefyd yn cael eu hamlinellu yn yr adroddiad—ynglŷn â cholli gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd gwledig, yr angen i deithio er mwyn cael mynediad i wasanaethau a’r problemau penodol y mae ardaloedd gwledig dwfn ac anghysbell yn eu cael wrth geisio cael mynediad i’r gwasanaethau hynny. Yr ydym yn ystyried rôl y Llywodraeth i gynorthwyo yn y meysydd hyn.

Elin Jones: If I may correct you, Eleanor, I do not live in the countryside, I live in a town, but I do represent a rural area, of course. I should answer your question by referring to the work that we have commissioned, such as the report we have published on living in deep rural areas, and there will be a debate on these issues in the Assembly during the next few weeks. The Government is responding to that report, and I have discussed with my Ministerial colleagues the matters raised—such as those which you outline, which were also outlined in the report—regarding losing services in rural areas, the need to travel to access services, and the specific problems faced by deep and remote rural areas in trying to access those services. We are considering the role of Government in assisting in those areas.

Hybu Cynnyrch o Gymru The Promotion of Welsh Produce

C6 David Lloyd: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am hybu cynnyrch o Gymru? OAQ(3)0942(RAF)

Q6 David Lloyd: Will the Minister make a statement on the promotion of Welsh produce? OAQ(3)0942(RAF)

Elin Jones: Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru wedi ymrwymo i hybu bwyd a diod o Gymru drwy gefnogi nifer o fentrau, gan gynnwys mynychu digwyddiadau ac arddangosfeydd mawr ym maes bwyd ar draws y Deyrnas Gyfunol, yn ogystal â thrwy wobrau’r Gwir Flas, gwyliau bwyd a marchnadoedd ffermwyr.

Elin Jones: The Welsh Assembly Government is committed to supporting Welsh food and drink produce by supporting a number of initiatives, including attendance at major food events and exhibitions across the UK, the True Taste awards, food festivals and farmers’ markets.

David Lloyd: Diolch am yr ateb, Weinidog. David Lloyd: Thank you for the answer,

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Ymhellach at hynny, a fyddech o blaid, mewn egwyddor, cymunedau’n datblygu cardiau ffyddlondeb lleol i hybu gwerthiant cynnyrch lleol?

Minister. Further to that, would you support, in principle, communities developing local loyalty cards to promote the selling of local produce?

Elin Jones: Mae cardiau ffyddlondeb yn dechneg y mae rhai o’n harchfarchnadoedd mwyaf yn ei defnyddio, a hynny’n llwyddiannus mae’n siŵr. Byddai’n dda o beth gweld a ellid datblygu mentrau lleol, gwirfoddol sy’n rhoi cyfle i fusnesau lleol ddatblygu ac ehangu eu marchnad drwy gardiau ffyddlondeb ar lefel leol, a hynny er mwyn hybu’r economi. Nid rôl benodol i Lywodraeth yw ymyrryd yn hyn o beth, ond byddai’n waith y byddai busnesau lleol yn sicr yn gallu ei ystyried er mwyn cryfhau eu busnesau.

Elin Jones: Loyalty cards are a technique which is used by some of our largest supermarkets, and successfully, I am sure. It would be good to see whether local voluntary initiatives could be developed that provide opportunities to local businesses to develop and expand their market through loyalty cards at a local level, in order to promote the economy. It is not the role of Government specifically to intervene in this matter, but it is work which local businesses would certainly be able to consider to strengthen their businesses.

The Leader of the Opposition (Nick Bourne): I know the Minister’s commitment to the promotion of Welsh and local produce. I previously raised the issue that some restaurants and hotels indicate on their menus that the food has been locally sourced, whether it is meat, vegetables, fruit, cheese, and so on, which is clearly a marketing tool. Has the Minister considered the possibility of some form of promotion whereby you can give that a nudge to encourage it, because it is not only supportive of local producers, but healthy and green?

Arweinydd yr Wrthblaid (Nick Bourne): Gwn am ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i hyrwyddo cynnyrch o Gymru a chynnyrch lleol. Yr wyf wedi sôn o’r blaen fod rhai bwytai a gwestai’n nodi ar eu bwydlenni bod eu bwyd yn fwyd lleol, boed yn gig, yn llysiau, yn ffrwythau neu’n gaws, ac yn y blaen, ac y mae’n amlwg bod hynny’n arf marchnata. A yw’r Gweinidog wedi ystyried y posibilrwydd o gael rhyw fath o ddull hyrwyddo a fydd yn fodd ichi roi hwb i annog pobl i ddefnyddio cynnyrch lleol, oherwydd yn ogystal â chefnogi cynhyrchwyr lleol, mae arfer o’r fath yn iach ac yn wyrdd?

Elin Jones: We are targeting the hospitality sector as part of our food tourism action plan, looking at how we can work with the restaurant and hotel sector to ensure that businesses are aware of where they can source local food and that, when they do so, they tell their customers about it. We are doing work through our food tourism action plan to promote the very thing that you refer to.

Elin Jones: Yr ydym yn targedu’r sector lletygarwch fel rhan o’n cynllun gweithredu ar dwristiaeth bwyd, gan edrych ar y modd y gallwn weithio gyda’r sector bwytai a gwestai er mwyn sicrhau bod busnesau’n ymwybodol ble y gallant gael bwyd lleol, a phan fyddant yn gwneud hynny, eu bod yn dweud hynny wrth eu cwsmeriaid. Yr ydym yn gwneud gwaith drwy ein cynllun gweithredu ar dwristiaeth bwyd er mwyn hyrwyddo’r union beth y cyfeiriwch ato.

Less Favoured Areas Ardaloedd Llai Ffafriol

Q7 Leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats (Kirsty Williams): Will the Minister make a statement on the designation of less favoured areas in Wales? OAQ(3)0974(RAF)

C7 Arweinydd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Kirsty Williams): A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ddynodi ardaloedd llai ffafriol yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)0974(RAF)

Elin Jones: The less favoured area review Elin Jones: Mae’r adolygiad o ardaloedd llai

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currently being undertaken in Europe is looking to achieve a consistent approach to defining areas of natural handicap across all European member states. The negotiation process is ongoing. The expectation is that, once agreed, the revised criteria will apply from 2014.

ffafriol, sydd wrthi’n digwydd yn Ewrop, yn ceisio sicrhau dull cyson o ddiffinio ardaloedd sydd dan anfantais naturiol ledled holl aelod-wladwriaethau Ewrop. Mae’r broses drafod yn dal i fynd rhagddi. Ar ôl cytuno ar y meini prawf diwygiedig, disgwylir iddynt fod ar waith o 2014 ymlaen.

Kirsty Williams: Thank you for that answer, Minister. NFU Cymru has expressed concerns at the lack of substantive evidence offered by the Welsh Assembly Government for how the figure of 20 per cent for the Glastir top-up for farmers in less favoured areas was arrived at. Can the Minister explain how the figure was arrived at?

Kirsty Williams: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Mae NFU Cymru yn pryderu am y diffyg tystiolaeth gadarnhaol a gynigiwyd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i ddangos sut y cyfrifwyd y ffigur o 20 y cant fel swm atodol Glastir i ffermwyr mewn ardaloedd llai ffafriol. A all y Gweinidog esbonio sut y cyfrifwyd y ffigur hwnnw?

Elin Jones: The figure of 20 per cent came about as a result of looking to acknowledge the greater costs of meeting some of the Glastir prescriptions in less favoured areas. We are currently negotiating the acceptance of that 20 per cent top-up with the European Commission, which is challenging us on whether there should be a 20 per cent top-up. However, I am committed to recognising the greater cost of undertaking prescriptions in LFAs; that should be accounted for within Glastir. The exact basis for the figure of 20 per cent has been provided to the NFU.

Elin Jones: Cyfrifwyd y ffigur o 20 y cant yn sgil ceisio cydnabod y costau uwch o fodloni rhai o amodau Glastir mewn ardaloedd llai ffafriol. Yr ydym wrthi’n trafod derbyn y swm atodol hwnnw o 20 y cant gyda’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd ar hyn o bryd, sy’n ein herio ynghylch a ddylid cael swm atodol o 20 y cant. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi ymrwymo i gydnabod y gost uwch o fodloni amodau mewn ardaloedd llai ffafriol; dylid ystyried hynny o fewn Glastir. Mae’r union sail ar gyfer y ffigur o 20 y cant wedi’i rhoi i’r NFU.

Kirsty Williams: Thank you for your explanation, Minister. Perhaps you could share that with Members of the Assembly as well as the NFU by publishing it in the library. I am sure that many Members would be interested in that. There have also been complaints from people who participated in the trials of the new Glastir scheme that they have had difficulties accessing the pilot scheme. Will you consider delaying the scheme if those concerns, which are now being raised by NFU Cymru and the Farmers Union of Wales, cannot be resolved in the near future?

Kirsty Williams: Diolch ichi am eich esboniad, Weinidog. Efallai y gallech ei rannu gydag Aelodau’r Cynulliad yn ogystal â’r NFU drwy ei gyhoeddi yn y llyfrgell. Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddai gan nifer o’r Aelodau ddiddordeb yn hynny. Cafwyd cwynion hefyd gan bobl a gymerodd ran yn nhreialon cynllun newydd Glastir. Dywedent iddynt gael anawsterau wrth geisio mynd i mewn i’r cynllun peilot. A wnewch chi ystyried gohirio’r cynllun os na all y pryderon hynny, sy’n cael eu codi’n awr gan NFU Cymru ac Undeb Amaethwyr Cymru, gael eu datrys yn y dyfodol agos?

Elin Jones: I am confident that the issues can be and, in fact, have been resolved. I accept that the feedback from the work undertaken with the pilot scheme farms was that there were some problems with some of the prescriptions. That is why we did the pilot scheme—to find out whether there were any problems. We have responded to that and changed some of the prescriptions. I intend to

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn hyderus y gellir datrys y problemau a’u bod, mewn gwirionedd, wedi’u datrys. Yr wyf yn derbyn mai’r adborth o’r gwaith a wnaed gyda ffermydd y cynllun peilot oedd bod rhai problemau gyda rhai o’r amodau. Dyna pam y cynhaliwyd y cynllun peilot—er mwyn gweld a oedd unrhyw broblemau. Yr ydym wedi ymateb i hynny ac wedi newid rhai o’r amodau.

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publish the pilot scheme study and the Government’s response to the study in the near future and well in advance of the debate on Glastir that will happen at the beginning of March, I hope, in Plenary. I can provide the library with the detailed breakdown of how we arrived at the figure of 20 per cent for farms in LFAs.

Bwriadaf gyhoeddi astudiaeth y cynllun peilot ac ymateb y Llywodraeth i’r astudiaeth yn y dyfodol agos ac ymhell cyn y ddadl ar Glastir a gynhelir ddechrau mis Mawrth, gobeithio, yn y Cyfarfod Llawn. Gallaf ddarparu dadansoddiad manwl i’r llyfrgell o’r modd y cafodd y ffigur o 20 y cant ei gyfrifo gennym ar gyfer ffermydd mewn ardaloedd llai ffafriol.

Brynle Williams: My question is along the same lines, so you have partly answered it, Minister. How will the transition from Tir Mynydd to Glastir be managed? Given the timescale, there is a great deal of concern about this. On a separate issue, what reassurances can you give that the environmental and habitat improvement works already carried out under Tir Gofal will be secured during the transition from one scheme to the other?

Brynle Williams: Mae fy nghwestiwn innau’n eithaf tebyg, felly, yr ydych wedi’i ateb yn rhannol, Weinidog. Sut y bydd y broses bontio rhwng Tir Mynydd a Glastir yn cael ei rheoli? O ystyried yr amserlen, mae llawer yn pryderu am hynny. I godi mater arall, pa sicrwydd y gallwch ei roi y bydd gwaith i wella’r amgylchedd a chynefinoedd, a wneir eisoes dan y cynllun Tir Gofal, yn cael ei ddiogelu yn ystod y broses bontio rhwng y naill gynllun a’r llall?

Elin Jones: As part of the transition agreement with regard to the move into Glastir, we have provided the opportunity for Tir Gofal and Tir Cynnal members to extend their current contracts until the end of 2013. In terms of transition from Tir Mynydd to Glastir, the final Tir Mynydd payment will be made in March 2011, and Glastir payments will be paid to those who have made applications and signed management agreements. The Glastir payments will be made in 2012.

Elin Jones: Fel rhan o’r cytundeb pontio yng nghyswllt trosglwyddo i Glastir, yr ydym wedi rhoi cyfle i aelodau Tir Gofal a Thir Cynnal ymestyn eu contractau presennol tan ddiwedd 2013. O ran pontio rhwng Tir Mynydd a Glastir, gwneir y taliad Tir Mynydd olaf ym mis Mawrth 2011, a bydd taliadau Glastir yn cael eu talu i’r sawl sydd wedi gwneud ceisiadau ac sydd wedi llofnodi cytundebau rheoli. Caiff taliadau Glastir eu talu yn 2012.

Residing in Rural Areas Byw mewn Ardaloedd Gwledig

Q8 Mark Isherwood: Will the Minister make a statement on policies to help to support those residing in rural areas? OAQ(3)0970(RAF)

C8 Mark Isherwood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei pholisïau i helpu cefnogi pobl sy’n byw mewn ardaloedd gwledig? OAQ(3)0970(RAF)

Elin Jones: My policies are set out in the rural development plan. I issued a statement on my plans for addressing the needs of deep rural localities and wider rural communities on 15 December. Co-operation with my Cabinet colleagues and activities under the rural development plan will be central to my approach.

Elin Jones: Mae fy mholisïau wedi’u hegluro yn y cynllun datblygu gwledig. Cyhoeddais ddatganiad ar 15 Rhagfyr am fy nghynlluniau ar gyfer mynd i’r afael ag anghenion ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell a chymunedau gwledig yn gyffredinol. Bydd cydweithredu â’m cydweithwyr yn y Cabinet ynghyd â gweithgareddau dan y cynllun datblygu gwledig yn elfen ganolog yn fy null gweithredu.

Mark Isherwood: Age Concern Cymru and Help the Aged Wales’s manifesto for lifetime

Mark Isherwood: Yr oedd maniffesto Age Concern Cymru a Help the Aged Cymru ar

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neighbourhoods entitled ‘Towards Common Ground’ ranked 10 key components for sustainable communities with local amenities, including rural post offices at the top, followed closely by public transport in rural areas. How do you respond to their call to see these 10 components mainstreamed in planning policies and strategies at national and local government level?

gyfer cymdogaethau gydol oes, o’r enw ‘Tua’r Tir Cyffredin’, yn cynnwys 10 elfen allweddol ar gyfer cymunedau cynaliadwy sydd â chyfleusterau lleol. Yr oedd hynny’n cynnwys swyddfeydd post gwledig ar y brig, a chludiant cyhoeddus mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn ail agos. Sut yr ydych yn ymateb i’w cais i weld y 10 elfen hyn yn cael eu prif ffrydio mewn strategaethau a pholisïau cynllunio ar lefel llywodraeth leol a chenedlaethol?

Elin Jones: You will have to excuse me, but I am not completely familiar with the 10 components, but you noted two in your question, which are the future of post office services and rural transport. In my statement of 15 December on our response to the study on deep rural areas, I stated that it is clear to me that the Government needs to respond by ensuring access to services, access to public services and the ability to transport people from deep rural areas to service centres. This is key if we are to ensure equality of access for people living in deep rural areas, as compared with others.

Elin Jones: Bydd yn rhaid ichi fy esgusodi, ond nid wyf yn gwbl gyfarwydd â’r 10 elfen, ond yr oeddech yn sôn am ddwy ohonynt yn eich cwestiwn, sef dyfodol gwasanaethau swyddfeydd post a chludiant cyhoeddus. Yn fy natganiad ar 15 Rhagfyr ar ein hymateb i’r astudiaeth ar ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell, dywedais ei bod yn amlwg i mi fod angen i’r Llywodraeth ymateb drwy sicrhau gallu cael gwasanaethau, gallu cael gwasanaethau cyhoeddus, a’r gallu i gludo pobl o ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell i ganolfannau gwasanaethau. Mae hynny’n allweddol os ydym am sicrhau mynediad cyfartal i bobl sy’n byw mewn ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell, o’u cymharu ag eraill.

Rural Communities Cymunedau Gwledig

Q9 Nick Ramsay: Will the Minister make a statement on her objectives for rural communities in 2010? OAQ(3)0973(RAF)

C9 Nick Ramsay: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ei hamcanion ar gyfer cymunedau gwledig yn 2010? OAQ(3)0973(RAF)

Elin Jones: My objectives for rural areas are set out in the ‘Farming, Food and Countryside’ strategy and the rural development plan.

Elin Jones: Mae fy amcanion ar gyfer ardaloedd gwledig wedi’u gosod allan yn y strategaeth ‘Ffermio, Bwyd a Chefn Gwlad’ ac yn y cynllun datblygu gwledig.

Nick Ramsay: Thank you for that answer, Minister. You are on record as supporting a UK-wide supermarket ombudsman, which would clearly have an important effect on the price that farmers in Wales receive for their produce and, therefore, on the amount of money in the rural economy. Given your position on such an ombudsman, how do you intend to make sure that when the office comes into existence, the issues affecting farmers in Wales, and the specific problems that affect upland areas, in parts of my constituency and moving into mid Wales, are adequately understood and represented at a

Nick Ramsay: Diolch ichi am yr ateb hwnnw, Weinidog. Cofnodwyd eich bod yn cefnogi cael ombwdsmon archfarchnadoedd ar gyfer y DU gyfan, a fyddai’n amlwg yn cael effaith bwysig ar y pris a gaiff ffermwyr yng Nghymru am eu cynnyrch, ac ar faint o arian a fyddai, felly, yn yr economi wledig. O gofio’ch safbwynt ar gael ombwdsmon felly, sut y bwriadwch wneud yn siŵr, pan ddaw’r swydd i fod, y bydd y materion sy’n effeithio ar ffermwyr yng Nghymru, a’r problemau penodol sy’n effeithio ar ardaloedd ucheldir mewn rhannau o’m hetholaeth i a’r canolbarth, yn cael eu deall a’u cynrychioli’n

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national level? ddigonol ar lefel genedlaethol?

Evelyn Jones: I am very pleased that the UK Government has accepted the need for a supermarket ombudsman. I do not want to overplay the effect that such an ombudsman might have on the prices paid to suppliers because it may well be that it does not influence the prices to as great a degree as you suggest, but it will ensure fair play in the grocery supply chain. I intend to respond on behalf of the Government to the current UK consultation on the setting up of that position, in order to provide our Government’s view on how it should operate, particularly, as you mentioned, in the interests of Welsh food producers.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf yn falch iawn fod Llywodraeth y DU wedi derbyn bod angen ombwdsmon archfarchnadoedd. Nid wyf am orbwysleisio’r effaith y gallai ombwdsmon o’r fath ei chael ar y prisiau a delir i gyflenwyr, oherwydd mae’n bosibl iawn na fydd yn dylanwadu ar y prisiau i’r graddau a awgrymwyd gennych, ond bydd yn sicrhau chwarae teg yn y gadwyn cyflenwi bwyd. Bwriadaf ymateb ar ran y Llywodraeth i ymgynghoriad presennol y DU ynghylch sefydlu’r swydd honno, er mwyn rhoi safbwynt ein Llywodraeth ni ar y modd y dylai weithredu, er budd cynhyrchwyr bwyd Cymru yn enwedig, fel yr oeddech yn sôn.

Helen Mary Jones: Yn naturiol, mae llwyddiant ein hamaethwyr yn hollol allweddol i ddyfodol cymunedau gwledig. Yr wythnos hon, ymwelais â phobl sy’n magu moch yn fy etholaeth i. Beth ydych wedi ei wneud, fel Gweinidog, i gefnogi’r diwydiant hwn, ac a fyddech yn fodlon dod gyda mi, cyn hir gobeithio, i ymweld â’r moch hapus iawn sy’n byw ar y fferm yn Felin-foel, ac yn dod o frîd arbennig y mochyn unigryw Cymreig? Gwn eich bod wedi cefnogi mwy o ddefnydd o’r moch hynny yn ein diwydiant.

Helen Mary Jones: Naturally, the success of our farmers is crucial to the future of rural communities. This week, I visited pig breeders in my constituency. What are you, as Minister, doing to support this industry, and would you be willing to join me soon on a visit to that farm in Felinfoel to see those happy pigs, which come from the uniquely Welsh breed of pigs? I know that you have been supporting greater use of that breed in the industry.

Elin Jones: Yr wyf wedi cael sawl gwahoddiad wrth ateb cwestiynau yn y Siambr, ond nid wyf erioed wedi cael gwahoddiad i fferm foch. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf yn falch o dderbyn y gwahoddiad, ac mae’n siŵr y gwnawn y trefniadau ar gyfer hynny. Yr wyf yn awyddus i weld y diwydiant moch yn cryfhau yng Nghymru. Mae’r diwydiant wedi edwino’n sylweddol dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Mae’r ffaith bod gan Hybu Cig Cymru gyfrifoldeb bellach am ddiwydiant cig mochyn, yn ogystal â chig eidion a chig oen, yn rhoi cyfle i ni ddatblygu potensial y diwydiant.

Elin Jones: I have received many invitations while answering questions in the Chamber, but I have not, until now, been invited to a pig farm. However, I am pleased to accept the invitation, and I am sure we will make the necessary arrangements. I am eager to see the pig industry being strengthened in Wales. It is an industry that has declined considerably over the past few years. The fact that Hybu Cig Cymru now has responsibility for the pig meat industry, in addition to the beef and lamb industries, gives us an opportunity to develop the industry’s potential.

Yr wyf wedi cymryd diddordeb arbennig ym mharhad a llwyddiant y mochyn Cymreig, a gobeithiaf yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf fod yn rhan o lansiad arbennig ar ddyfodol y mochyn Cymreig, a oedd yn achos rhywfaint o gonsyrn yn ddiweddar. Yr ydym ni, fel Llywodraeth, wedi rhoi rhywfaint o gefnogaeth i’r gymdeithas berthnasol i hyrwyddo’r mochyn prin hwn.

I have taken a particular interest in the survival and success of the Welsh pig, and I hope in the next few weeks to be part of a special launch on the future of the Welsh pig, which was recently the cause of some concern. We, as a Government, have given some support to the relevant society to promote this rare breed.

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Y Llywydd: A chyda’r cig moch cawn gennin.

The Presiding Officer: And, naturally, with pork we have leeks.

Leeks Cennin

Q10 David Melding: Will the Minister make a statement on the production and marketing of leeks? OAQ(3)0937(RAF)

C10 David Melding: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am gynhyrchu a marchnata cennin? OAQ(3)0937(RAF)

Elin Jones: The Welsh Government is committed to supporting the promotion and production of food in Wales, including leeks.

Elin Jones: Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi ymrwymo i gefnogi gwaith hyrwyddo a chynhyrchu bwyd yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys cennin.

David Melding: Cortinas, Goliaths and the King Richard—you will know that these are all varieties of leek. Do you realise that leeks are now being written about in the culinary press as something of a wonder food, and as a better alternative to onions or garlic? It has also been written that even the English are eating more leeks. Therefore, would you be prepared to go to England—perhaps as an act of charity—to encourage them to maintain these good habits, because if they want to eat them, we can produce them? [Laughter.]

David Melding: Cortina, Goliath a King Richard—gwyddoch eu bod i gyd yn fathau o gennin. A ydych yn sylweddoli bod y wasg goginio erbyn hyn yn sôn am gennin fel rhyw fath o fwyd rhyfeddol, ac fel dewis gwell na nionod neu arlleg? Soniwyd hefyd fod hyd yn oed y Saeson yn bwyta mwy o gennin. Felly, a fyddech yn barod i fynd i Loegr—o ran cymwynas, efallai—i’w hannog i gynnal yr arferion da hyn, oherwydd os ydynt am eu bwyta, gallwn ni eu cynhyrchu? [Chwerthin.]

Elin Jones: I do not think that I could match you as an ambassador for leeks. I would be happy for you to join me when I visit England to promote the wonder food of Welsh leeks, because you are most definitely a great advocate.

Elin Jones: Ni chredaf y gallwn i fod cystal llysgennad â chi dros gennin. Byddwn yn hapus ichi ymuno â mi pan fyddaf yn mynd i Loegr i hyrwyddo cennin rhyfeddol Cymru, oherwydd nid oes amheuaeth nad ydych yn hyrwyddwr gwych.

Chris Franks: I know that you have met with the Really Welsh Trading Company Ltd based in Llantwit Major, which is the biggest leek grower in Wales. Wales grows enough leeks to be self-sufficient. However, very few of the large supermarkets in Wales stock Welsh leeks. Before you start promoting leeks in England, what discussions have you had with the supermarket chains to ensure that more locally grown Welsh leeks appear on our shelves?

Chris Franks: Gwn eich bod wedi cyfarfod â Really Welsh Trading Company Ltd yn Llanilltud Fawr, y cwmni sy’n tyfu’r nifer mwyaf o gennin yng Nghymru. Mae Cymru’n tyfu digon o gennin i fod yn hunangynhaliol. Fodd bynnag, ychydig iawn o’r archfarchnadoedd mawr yng Nghymru sy’n gwerthu cennin o Gymru. Cyn ichi ddechrau hyrwyddo cennin yn Lloegr, pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda’r archfarchnadoedd i sicrhau bod mwy o gennin sydd wedi’u tyfu’n lleol yng Nghymru yn ymddangos ar ein silffoedd?

Elin Jones: My officials and I are in continual discussion with major supermarkets on the promotion and stocking of Welsh food. I was very impressed to see great promotion of Really Welsh Trading Company Ltd leeks in a Tesco store not far

Elin Jones: Bydd fy swyddogion a minnau’n cael trafodaethau parhaus gyda’r archfarchnadoedd mawr ar hyrwyddo a gwerthu bwyd o Gymru. Yr oeddwn yn falch iawn gweld cennin Really Welsh Trading Company Ltd yn cael eu hyrwyddo’n wych

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from here. It is important that supermarkets not only look to stock Welsh produce, but that they give that produce prominent promotion. Some supermarkets are taking on that work, but we want to see all supermarkets in Wales promoting local Welsh produce.

mewn siop Tesco nid nepell o’r fan hon. Mae’n bwysig i archfarchnadoedd nid yn unig yn ceisio gwerthu cynnyrch o Gymru, ond eu bod hefyd yn hyrwyddo’r cynnyrch hwnnw’n amlwg. Mae rhai archfarchnadoedd yn gwneud hynny, ond yr ydym am weld pob archfarchnad yng Nghymru yn hyrwyddo cynnyrch lleol o Gymru.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr oeddwn yn meddwl y byddech yn hoffi clywed fy mod i wedi gweld y cennin yn cael eu codi ar dir y Really Welsh Trading Company yn Sealand yn sir y Fflint. A wyddoch chi fod y ffordd o dorri’r cennin ar gyfer y farchnad yng Nghymru yn wahanol i’r ffordd ar gyfer y farchnad yn Lloegr? Caiff rhagor o’r ddeilen werdd ei chadw ar gyfer y farchnad Gymreig—yr wyf yn gweld bod y Llywydd yn gyfarwydd â hyn—tra bod mwy o’r ddeilen yn cael ei thorri i’r farchnad Saesneg. A hoffech chi ddweud rhywbeth diddorol am yr arfer hwnnw, yn ychwanegol at yr hyn a ddywedwyd yn barod?

Eleanor Burnham: I thought you might like to know that I went to see the Really Welsh Trading Company gathering leeks on its land in Sealand in Flintshire. Did you know that there are different ways of cutting the leeks for the markets in Wales and England? They leave more of the green leaf for the Welsh market—I can see that the Presiding Officer is aware of this—while the leeks are trimmed further for the English market. I thought you might have an interesting comment to make on that practice, in addition to what has already been said.

Elin Jones: Ni allaf ddweud rhywbeth sydd llawer yn fwy diddorol na’r hyn a ddywedodd Eleanor wrth ofyn ei chwestiwn. Yr wyf yn falch iawn o fod wedi dysgu rhywbeth gan Eleanor Burnham y prynhawn yma.

Elin Jones: I do not believe I can say anything that would be much more interesting than what Eleanor raised in her question. I am pleased to have learnt something from Eleanor Burnham this afternoon.

Y Llywydd: Diolch i’r Gweinidog, a diolch i’r Aelodau am holi cwestiynau mor ddiddorol a pherthnasol.

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Minister, and I thank Members for asking such interesting and pertinent questions.

Cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a ThaiQuestions to the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing

Wales’s Main Environmental Challenges Prif Sialensiau Amgylcheddol Cymru

Q1 Andrew R.T. Davies: What measures is the Minister taking to tackle Wales’s main environmental challenges? OAQ(3)1141(ESH)

C1 Andrew R.T. Davies: Pa gamau y mae’r Gweinidog yn eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â phrif sialensiau amgylcheddol Cymru? OAQ(3)1141(ESH)

The Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing (Jane Davidson): Wales’s main environmental challenges range from halting biodiversity loss, tackling flood risk, reducing waste levels and responding to climate change. We recently issued a written statement on biodiversity, a range of measures and funding

Y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai (Jane Davidson): Mae prif heriau amgylcheddol Cymru’n amrywio o roi terfyn ar golli bioamrywiaeth i fynd i’r afael â pherygl llifogydd, lleihau lefelau gwastraff ac ymateb i’r newid yn yr hinsawdd. Yn ddiweddar, cafodd datganiad ysgrifenedig ei gyhoeddi gennym ar

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is planned for flooding, and waste and climate change strategies will be issued later this year.

fioamrywiaeth, cynllunnir ystod o fesurau a chyllid ar gyfer llifogydd, a bydd strategaethau ar gyfer gwastraff a’r newid yn yr hinsawdd yn cael eu cyhoeddi’n ddiweddarach eleni.

2.10 p.m.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Thank you, Minister, for that answer. A big environmental challenge that many of us find in the countryside, for example, is that presented by the twenty-first century lifestyle issue of rubbish from fast-food outlets and convenience-food stalls. Could you outline what measures the Assembly Government is taking, along with local authorities, to try to protect the beauty of the countryside and wildlife from the impact of abandoning litter?

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch, Weinidog, am yr ateb hwnnw. Un her amgylcheddol fawr y bydd nifer ohonom yn dod ar ei thraws yng nghefn gwlad, er enghraifft, yw’r broblem yn gysylltiedig â ffordd o fyw’r unfed ganrif ar hugain, sef sbwriel o fannau gwerthu bwyd cyflym a stondinau prydau parod. A allwch amlinellu pa fesurau y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, ynghyd ag awdurdodau lleol, yn eu cymryd i geisio gwarchod harddwch cefn gwlad a bywyd gwyllt rhag effaith gollwng sbwriel?

Jane Davidson: Recently, I announced that we were focusing on fly-tipping in all parts of Wales, and we rebadged the Pride in our Communities initiative as Fly-Tipping Action Wales. This initiative involves local authorities, environmental organisations such as the Environment Agency, the Welsh Assembly Government, and the police, which is important in this context. There are major fines for fly-tipping, and we are encouraging prosecutions to take place, of which we have seen a substantial number. We also support Keep Wales Tidy, local authorities, and the Tidy Towns initiative, which has discrete extra funding from local authorities and from Keep Wales Tidy, and which is enabling much greater protection of areas by their communities.

Jane Davidson: Yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddais ein bod yn canolbwyntio ar achosion o adael sbwriel yn anghyfreithlon ym mhob rhan o Gymru, a chafodd ein menter Ymfalchïo yn ein Cymunedau ei hailenwi’n Taclo Tipio Cymru. Mae’r fenter hon yn cynnwys awdurdodau lleol, sefydliadau amgylcheddol megis Asiantaeth yr Amgylchedd, Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r heddlu, sy’n bwysig yn y cyd-destun hwn. Mae yna ddirwyon sylweddol am adael sbwriel yn anghyfreithlon, ac yr ydym yn annog erlyniadau, sydd wedi bod yn niferus. Yr ydym hefyd yn cefnogi Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus, awdurdodau lleol, a’r fenter Trefi Taclus sy’n cael arian ychwanegol ar wahân gan awdurdodau lleol a chan ymgyrch Cadwch Gymru’n Daclus, ac sy’n sicrhau bod modd i ardaloedd gael eu gwarchod i raddau mwy o lawer gan eu cymunedau.

Chris Franks: Minister, the Wales Audit Office report ‘Sustainable development and business decision making in the Welsh Assembly Government’ highlighted that sustainable development is not integrated into financial and business-planning processes. As biodiversity is a key indicator of sustainable development, how are you ensuring that biodiversity and consideration of the natural environment is fully integrated across all departments? Iconic birds such as the cuckoo are in decline, as are the golden plover and the corn bunting. Environmental

Chris Franks: Weinidog, yr oedd yr adroddiad ‘Datblygu cynaliadwy a gwneud penderfyniadau busnes yn Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru’ gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn tynnu sylw at y ffaith nad yw datblygu cynaliadwy wedi’i integreiddio mewn prosesau ariannol a chynllunio busnes. Gan fod bioamrywiaeth yn ddangosydd allweddol o ddatblygu cynaliadwy, sut yr ydych yn sicrhau bod bioamrywiaeth a rhoi ystyriaeth i’r amgylchedd naturiol yn cael eu hintegreiddio’n llawn ar draws pob adran? Mae niferoedd yr adar eiconig megis y gwcw

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organisations report that £6 million of gross domestic product depends on the Welsh environment. Wildlife is under huge pressure, so what additional measures do you intend to take to reverse the decline?

yn gostwng, fel y mae niferoedd y cwtiad aur a bras yr ŷd. Mae sefydliadau amgylcheddol yn dweud bod gwerth £6 miliwn o gynnyrch mewnwladol crynswth yn dibynnu ar amgylchedd Cymru. Mae bywyd gwyllt dan bwysau mawr, felly, pa fesurau ychwanegol y bwriadwch eu cymryd i wrthdroi’r gostyngiad?

Jane Davidson: It is important that this year, which is the International Year of Biodiversity, we, as a Government, are clear as to the fact that biodiversity is not only a high-level indicator in the context of our sustainable development scheme, but that it is hugely important in its own right and in its contribution to the climate change debate. I recently published a Government statement on biodiversity that outlined the actions that we are taking as a Government, which will lead to a new natural environment framework report to be issued at the end of the year. I have also asked officials to look carefully at where we are and why we will miss the 2010 biodiversity target. As you know, no country will achieve the 2010 biodiversity target, but the Government is committed. Therefore, we are undertaking a lot of work on the back of the environment strategy action plan, including work with stakeholders, to make sure that we have better knowledge and are much clearer in respect of ambitious and achievable targets that we can set for the future.

Jane Davidson: Mae’n bwysig eleni, ym Mlwyddyn Ryngwladol Bioamrywiaeth, ein bod ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn deall yn glir nad yng nghyd-destun ein cynllun datblygu cynaliadwy’n unig y mae bioamrywiaeth yn ddangosydd lefel uchel, ond ei bod yn eithriadol o bwysig yn ei rhinwedd ei hun ac o ran ei chyfraniad i’r ddadl ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd. Yn ddiweddar, cyhoeddais ddatganiad gan y Llywodraeth ar fioamrywiaeth a oedd yn amlinellu’r camau gweithredu a gymerwn fel Llywodraeth ac a fydd yn arwain at adroddiad fframwaith newydd ar yr amgylchedd naturiol. Caiff hwnnw ei gyhoeddi ddiwedd y flwyddyn. Yr wyf hefyd wedi gofyn i swyddogion ystyried yn ofalus ble’r ydym ar hyn o bryd a pham y byddwn yn methu â chyrraedd targed 2010 ar gyfer bioamrywiaeth. Fel y gwyddoch, ni fydd yr un wlad yn cyrraedd targed 2010 ar gyfer bioamrywiaeth, ond mae’r Llywodraeth wedi ymrwymo. Yr ydym, felly, yn gwneud llawer o waith yn sgil cynllun gweithredu’r strategaeth amgylcheddol, gan gynnwys gwaith gyda rhanddeiliaid, i sicrhau bod gennym wybodaeth well a dealltwriaeth well o lawer o dargedau uchelgeisiol a chyraeddadwy y gallwn eu pennu ar gyfer y dyfodol.

Kirsty Williams: Minister, a cross-party group has been launched today to promote the idea of a Robin Hood tax, which builds on the previous idea of a Tobin tax. This measure would see the creation of a small tax on international banking charges, which could raise billions of pounds that could go towards helping to tackle issues to do with climate change. Will you agree to meet representatives of all the organisations in Wales that support the Robin Hood tax, and see what you can to do persuade the UK Government to adopt this measure?

Kirsty Williams: Weinidog, lansiwyd grŵp trawsbleidiol heddiw i hyrwyddo’r syniad o dreth Robin Hood, sy’n adeiladu ar y syniad blaenorol o dreth Tobin. Byddai’r mesur hwn yn golygu codi treth fach ar daliadau bancio rhyngwladol, a fyddai’n codi biliynau o bunnoedd a allai helpu mynd i’r afael â materion yn ymwneud â’r newid yn yr hinsawdd. A gytunwch i gyfarfod â chynrychiolwyr yr holl sefydliadau yng Nghymru sy’n cefnogi’r dreth Robin Hood, a gweld beth y gallwch ei wneud i ddwyn perswâd ar Lywodraeth y DU i fabwysiadu’r mesur hwn?

Jane Davidson: Clearly, matters of taxation Jane Davidson: Yn amlwg, Llywodraeth y

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are for the UK Government, and matters of finance in respect of the Assembly Government are under the responsibility of Jane Hutt.

DU sy’n gyfrifol am faterion trethu, a Jane Hutt sy’n gyfrifol am faterion ariannol o ran Llywodraeth y Cynulliad.

Fuel Poverty Tlodi Tanwydd

Q2 Eleanor Burnham: Will the Minister give an update on progress towards reaching Welsh Assembly Government targets on fuel poverty? OAQ(3)1162(ESH)

C2 Eleanor Burnham: A wnaiff y Gweinidog roi’r wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am y cynnydd at gyrraedd targedau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru ar dlodi tanwydd? OAQ(3)1162(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Fuel poverty data from the Living in Wales survey 2008 will be published this autumn. It will include an update on the number of households in fuel poverty and progress made against the targets. The data will also provide modelled estimates for the number of households in fuel poverty in 2009-10. As you already know, this morning, I announced the Welsh boiler scrappage scheme to support 5,000 householders aged over 60.

Jane Davidson: Bydd data ar dlodi tanwydd o arolwg Byw yng Nghymru 2008 yn cael eu cyhoeddi yr hydref hwn. Byddant yn cynnwys y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf am nifer yr aelwydydd sy’n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd a’r cynnydd a wnaed yn erbyn y targedau. Bydd y data hefyd yn darparu amcangyfrifon wedi eu modelu o nifer yr aelwydydd sy’n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd yn 2009-10. Fel y gwyddoch eisoes, cyhoeddais gynllun Cymru i sgrapio boeleri y bore yma, i helpu 5,000 o ddeiliaid tai sydd dros 60 oed.

Eleanor Burnham: The Welsh Liberal Democrats welcome that announcement and the fact that the scheme in Wales will be more targeted towards those living in fuel poverty than the English scheme. However, as I know to my cost, a boiler costs on average £2,500 to replace, and so giving £500 towards it will not address the problem or help those who are most in need. Partial grants are of little support to those who are fuel poor as they cannot afford to pay the remainder upfront and so will not benefit from the potential savings. People need to be able to access a combination of schemes a well as a low-interest or interest-free source of cash to help them to pay the upfront cost of replacing a boiler. What other options do you propose to cover the remaining costs that most people cannot truly afford?

Eleanor Burnham: Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn croesawu’r cyhoeddiad hwnnw a’r ffaith y bydd y cynllun yng Nghymru, yn fwy felly na’r cynllun yn Lloegr, yn cael ei dargedu’n fwy penodol at bobl sy’n byw mewn tlodi tanwydd. Fodd bynnag, fel y gwn o brofiad, mae gosod boeler newydd yn lle hen un yn costio £2,500 ar gyfartaledd, ac felly ni fydd rhoi £500 tuag at y gost honno’n mynd i’r afael â’r broblem nac yn helpu’r rheini sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Nid yw grantiau rhannol o gymorth mawr i bobl sy’n dlawd o ran tanwydd, am na allant fforddio talu’r gweddill o flaen llaw. Ni fyddant, felly, yn elwa o’r arbedion posibl. Mae angen i bobl allu cael cyfuniad o gynlluniau yn ogystal â ffynhonnell llog isel neu ddi-log o arian parod i’w helpu i dalu ymlaen llaw am osod boeler newydd yn lle hen un. Pa ddewisiadau eraill yr ydych yn eu cynnig i dalu gweddill y costau na all y rhan fwyaf o bobl eu fforddio mewn gwirionedd?

Jane Davidson: My officials are in discussion with the energy companies, which are looking at their own initiatives. It will be possible for any individual who is eligible for the scheme to put together a package of

Jane Davidson: Mae fy swyddogion wrthi’n cynnal trafodaethau gyda’r cwmnïau ynni, sy’n ystyried eu mentrau eu hunain. Bydd yn bosibl i unrhyw unigolyn sy’n gymwys ar gyfer y cynllun greu pecyn o gyllid gan

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funding from the Assembly Government and the energy companies. Although the full details on how the grant will work will be published next month, I wanted to ensure that people knew now that we were making this commitment. A slightly larger amount is being made available by the Assembly Government: it is £500 and not £400. We are also putting a little more, a further £1.4 million, into the home energy efficiency scheme, which will benefit those who are eligible for that.

Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r cwmnïau ynni. Er y bydd manylion llawn am y ffordd y bydd y grant yn gweithio yn cael eu cyhoeddi y mis nesaf, yr oeddwn am sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod yn awr ein bod yn ymrwymo i hyn. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn sicrhau y bydd swm ychydig yn fwy ar gael: £500 yn hytrach na £400. Yr ydym hefyd yn rhoi ychydig mwy o arian, £1.4 miliwn arall, i’r cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref, a fydd o fantais i bobl sy’n gymwys ar gyfer y cynllun hwnnw.

Bethan Jenkins: Minister, you will know that, last week, Ofgem put forward radical proposals that would, effectively, bring to an end the free-market approach to energy supply by selling through a state-controlled body, which is also to set the minimum supply levels. Has the Welsh Government been invited to respond to those proposals?

Bethan Jenkins: Weinidog, gwyddoch fod Ofgem wedi cyflwyno cynigion radical yr wythnos diwethaf a fyddai, i bob pwrpas, yn rhoi terfyn ar ddull y farchnad rydd o gyflenwi ynni, drwy ei werthu drwy gorff a reolir gan y wladwriaeth. Byddai hwnnw hefyd yn pennu’r lefelau cyflenwi gofynnol. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cael ei gwahodd i ymateb i’r cynigion hynny?

You will also have seen that British Gas has passed on a cut in the price of wholesale gas to its consumers in the shape of an average 7 per cent reduction in household bills. Has the Welsh Government heard whether any other energy providers are planning to do the same?

Byddwch hefyd wedi gweld bod Nwy Prydain wedi trosglwyddo gostyngiad ym mhris nwy cyfanwerthol i’w ddefnyddwyr, ar ffurf gostyngiad o 7 y cant ar gyfartaledd ym miliau cartrefi. A yw Llywodraeth Cymru wedi clywed am ddarparwyr ynni eraill sy’n bwriadu gwneud yr un peth?

Jane Davidson: In October 2009, Ofgem published its view of the risks and challenges facing the gas and electricity industries, looking particularly at whether the current arrangements in the UK were adequate for delivering secure and sustainable electricity and gas supply for the next 10 to 15 years. That was an important report. We have worked not only with the six major energy companies, but with Ofgem, which is looking to increase its representation, presence and engagement in Wales. It is considering having an Assembly Government secondee to support its engagement with us. A critical outcome of the Ofgem research is that, with the pressure to reduce fossil fuel supplies and to tackle the effects of climate change, the investment that we and others, at an individual as well as a corporate and business level, can put into renewable energy makes good business, environmental and social sense.

Jane Davidson: Ym mis Hydref 2009, cyhoeddodd Ofgem ei farn am y risgiau a’r heriau sy’n wynebu’r diwydiannau nwy a thrydan, gan edrych yn benodol ar y cwestiwn a oedd y trefniadau presennol yn y DU yn ddigonol i sicrhau cyflenwad diogel a chynaliadwy o drydan a nwy am y 10 i’r 15 mlynedd nesaf. Yr oedd yr adroddiad hwnnw’n un pwysig. Yr ydym wedi gweithio nid yn unig gyda’r chwe phrif gwmni ynni, ond gydag Ofgem hefyd, sy’n ystyried cynyddu ei gynrychiolaeth, ei bresenoldeb a’i ymwneud yng Nghymru. Mae’n ystyried cael person wedi ei secondio i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i ategu ei ymwneud â ni. Un o ganlyniadau hollbwysig ymchwil Ofgem yw bod y buddsoddiad y gallwn ni ac eraill ei wneud mewn ynni adnewyddadwy, ar lefel unigol ac ar lefel gorfforaethol a busnes, yn gwneud synnwyr o ran busnes, yr amgylchedd a’r gymdeithas, o gofio’r pwysau i leihau cyflenwadau tanwydd ffosil ac i fynd i’r afael ag effeithiau’r newid yn yr hinsawdd.

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Darren Millar: The disabled and chronically ill can be particularly susceptible to fuel poverty, given that their household incomes are generally lower than average and their fuel costs are generally higher than average, as certain conditions mean that they might be housebound or might feel the cold more than others. What discussions have you had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about that, and does the Welsh Assembly Government intend to support the introduction of targeted support for these particularly vulnerable people?

Darren Millar: Gall pobl anabl a phobl sydd â salwch cronig fod yn arbennig o agored i dlodi tanwydd, o ystyried bod incwm eu haelwyd fel rheol yn is na’r cyfartaledd a bod eu costau tanwydd fel rheol yn uwch na’r cyfartaledd, am fod amodau penodol yn golygu y gallent fod yn gaeth i’w cartrefi neu y gallent deimlo’r oerfel yn fwy nag eraill. Pa drafodaethau yr ydych wedi’u cael gyda’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol am hynny, ac a yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn bwriadu cefnogi’r gwaith o ddarparu cymorth wedi’i dargedu i’r bobl hyn sy’n arbennig o agored i niwed?

Jane Davidson: My officials and I met other Ministers and their officials to look at the development of the fuel poverty strategy, and the consultation on that comes from the whole of the Government. We have tried to ensure that the limited amount of money available from the Assembly Government is better targeted at those who are most in need. That is why the proposition is for the fuel poverty strategy to focus on whole-house solutions for the most inefficient properties and for those who are most in need. Given the limited amount of funding available, it is clearly important that we target our investment as best we can. Several other mechanisms can also support this agenda, whether they are other social support mechanisms or mechanisms via the energy companies

Jane Davidson: Cyfarfu fy swyddogion a minnau â Gweinidogion eraill a’u swyddogion hwythau i edrych ar ddatblygu’r strategaeth ar dlodi tanwydd, ac mae’r ymgynghori arnynt yn deillio o’r Llywodraeth gyfan. Yr ydym wedi ceisio sicrhau bod y swm cyfyngedig o arian sydd ar gael gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cael ei dargedu’n well at y sawl sydd fwyaf mewn angen. Dyna pam mai’r cynnig yw y dylai’r strategaeth ar dlodi tanwydd ganolbwyntio ar atebion yn ymwneud â’r cartref cyfan yn achos y cartrefi mwyaf aneffeithlon a’r rheini sydd fwyaf mewn angen. O ystyried y swm cyfyngedig o arian sydd ar gael, mae’n amlwg ei bod yn bwysig inni dargedu ein buddsoddiad gystal ag y gallwn. Gall nifer o systemau eraill hefyd gefnogi’r agenda hon, boed yn systemau cymorth cymdeithasol eraill ynteu’n systemau drwy’r cwmnïau ynni.

2.20 p.m.

Alun Davies: Minister, you will be aware that, over the years, Ofgem has been regulating a market that has consistently forced Welsh consumers to pay more for electricity than consumers elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The purpose of having a UK regulator is to ensure consistency of pricing across the United Kingdom. The current system is grotesquely unfair to very poor people in Wales who have to pay far more for electricity than those in other parts of the United Kingdom. Minister, can you take that up with Ofgem to ensure that it regulates the market for the benefit of

Alun Davies: Weinidog, gwyddoch fod Ofgem, dros y blynyddoedd, wedi bod yn rheoleiddio marchnad sydd wedi gorfodi defnyddwyr yng Nghymru i dalu mwy am drydan na defnyddwyr mewn mannau eraill yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Diben cael corff rheoleiddio yn y DU yw sicrhau prisiau cyson ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae’r system bresennol yn eithriadol o annheg i bobl dlawd iawn yng Nghymru, sy’n gorfod talu llawer mwy am drydan na phobl sy’n byw mewn rhannau eraill o’ryrnas Unedig. Weinidog, a allwch godi’r mater hwnnw gydag Ofgem i sicrhau ei fod yn

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consumers and not businesses? rheoleiddio’r farchnad er lles defnyddwyr, nid busnesau?

Jane Davidson: You raise an interesting point. My first dealings with Ofgem, some two years ago, were on exactly that issue. We are a net exporter of energy in Wales, and we had some differentials that worked in our favour in parts of Wales and against us in other parts of Wales. There were also differences between gas and electricity. That called into question the role of a regulator that is fully accountable to its shareholders rather than to consumers. We work closely with the UK Government, Ofgem and the energy companies on taking a more consumer-led approach. The announcement made by Ofgem last week suggests that there may be other ways of delivering what is currently one of the most liberalised energy systems in Europe, to make it better for consumers in the future.

Jane Davidson: Yr ydych yn codi pwynt diddorol. Yr oedd fy nhrafodaethau cyntaf gydag Ofgem, ryw ddwy flynedd yn ôl, yn ymwneud â’r union fater hwnnw. Yr ydym yn allforio mwy o ynni nag yr ydym yn ei fewnforio yng Nghymru, ac yr oedd gennym ffactorau gwahanredol a oedd yn gweithio o’n plaid mewn rhannau o Gymru ac yn ein herbyn mewn rhannau eraill o’r wlad. Yr oedd gwahaniaethau hefyd rhwng nwy a thrydan. Codai hynny amheuaeth am rôl corff rheoleiddio sy’n gwbl atebol i’w gyfranddalwyr yn hytrach nag i ddefnyddwyr. Yr ydym yn gweithio’n agos gyda Llywodraeth y DU, Ofgem a’r cwmnïau ynni i fabwysiadu dull gweithredu sy’n cael ei arwain i raddau mwy helaeth gan ddefnyddwyr. Mae’r cyhoeddiad a wnaed gan Ofgem yr wythnos diwethaf yn awgrymu y gallai fod ffyrdd eraill i ddarparu system ynni sydd gyda’r mwyaf rhyddfrydol yn Ewrop ar hyn o bryd, i’w gwneud yn well ar gyfer defnyddwyr yn y dyfodol.

Reducing Greenhouse Gases Lleihau Nwyon Tŷ Gwydr

Q3 Leanne Wood: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Assembly Government commitment to reduce greenhouse gases? OAQ(3)1144(ESH)

C3 Leanne Wood: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am ymrwymiad Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i leihau nwyon tŷ gwydr? OAQ(3)1144(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Our climate change strategy, which we will publish later this year, will set out how we will deliver our commitment that greenhouse gas emissions in Wales should reduce by 3 per cent per year in areas of devolved competence.

Jane Davidson: Bydd ein strategaeth ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd, a gaiff ei chyhoeddi yn ddiweddarach eleni, yn gosod allan sut y byddwn yn cyflawni ein hymrwymiad i leihau allyriadau nwyon tŷ gwydr 3 y cant bob blwyddyn mewn meysydd sydd wedi’u datganoli.

Leanne Wood: I know that you accept that climate change is probably the greatest challenge that we face in the world today and that we must reduce our greenhouse gas emissions if we are to avert catastrophe. To do that, we must change the economy’s reliance on fossil fuels and harness the most sustainable forms of energy generation.

Leanne Wood: Gwn eich bod yn derbyn mai’r newid yn yr hinsawdd yw’r her fwyaf sy’n ein hwynebu yn y byd heddiw, mae’n debyg, a’i bod yn rhaid inni leihau ein hallyriadau nwyon tŷ gwydr os ydym am osgoi trychineb. I wneud hynny, rhaid inni newid dibyniaeth yr economi ar danwydd ffosil a defnyddio’r dulliau mwyaf cynaliadwy o gynhyrchu ynni.

People are keen to play their part, but, as I have discovered, getting planning permission for microgeneration projects can be fraught

Mae pobl yn awyddus i wneud eu rhan, ond fel yr wyf wedi ei ddarganfod, gall y broses o gael caniatâd cynllunio ar gyfer prosiectau

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with difficulties. For example, local authority costs for planning permission vary greatly and there is no presumption in favour of granting planning permission, which would significantly improve the situation. Do you agree, Minister, that microgeneration needs to be encouraged as much as possible? What measures can be taken to simplify the planning process?

microgynhyrchu fod yn frith o anawsterau. Er enghraifft, mae costau awdurdodau lleol i gael caniatâd cynllunio yn amrywio’n fawr, ac nid oes yr un rhagdybiaeth o blaid rhoi caniatâd cynllunio, a fyddai’n gwella’r sefyllfa’n sylweddol. A gytunwch, Weinidog, fod angen annog microgynhyrchu gymaint ag sy’n bosibl? Pa gamau y gellir eu cymryd i symleiddio’r broses gynllunio?

Jane Davidson: It is worth emphasising again that we amended permitted development rights last September to allow householders to install certain types of microgeneration equipment without planning permission. In fact, the changes were broadly similar to those made in England, but were more flexible on solar panels, which can be installed in the garden and not just on the building to ensure that they point in the right direction. We are also aiming to consult shortly on changes to the same permitted development rights for non-domestic properties as well as for outstanding domestic systems, such as air source heat pumps and wind turbines.

Jane Davidson: Mae’n werth pwysleisio eto inni ddiwygio hawliau datblygu a ganiateir fis Medi diwethaf er mwyn caniatáu i ddeiliaid tai osod rhai mathau o offer microgynhyrchu heb ganiatâd cynllunio. Mewn gwirionedd, yr oedd y newidiadau’n ddigon tebyg i’r rhai a wnaed yn Lloegr, ond yn fwy hyblyg o ran paneli solar. Gellir gosod y rheini yn yr ardd ac nid ar yr adeilad yn unig er mwyn sicrhau eu bod yn wynebu’r cyfeiriad cywir. Yr ydym hefyd yn bwriadu ymgynghori cyn hir ynghylch newidiadau yn yr un hawliau datblygu a ganiateir ar gyfer eiddo annomestig a’r systemau domestig sy’n weddill, megis pympiau gwres o’r awyr a thyrbinau gwynt.

Substantial extra investment has gone into the community energy generation scheme, which I launched in Cwm Clydach, and the low-carbon community challenge, from which a number of communities in Wales have benefited. We are looking at something that not only focuses on microgeneration, but also changes people’s lifestyles to bring down their carbon use.

Gwnaed buddsoddiad ychwanegol sylweddol yn y cynllun cynhyrchu ynni cymunedol, a lansiwyd gennyf yng Nghwm Clydach, a her y cymunedau carbon isel, ac mae nifer o gymunedau yng Nghymru wedi elwa ohonynt. Yr ydym yn ystyried rhywbeth a fydd nid yn unig yn canolbwyntio ar ficrogynhyrchu, ond a fydd hefyd yn newid ffordd o fyw pobl er mwyn defnyddio llai o garbon.

Brynle Williams: Good afternoon, Minister. The Welsh agriculture sector has shown a great deal of willingness to tackle carbon emissions by increasing the energy efficiency of its operations and generating renewable energy on farms, among many other schemes. Despite producing an essential product, food, which no-one can live without, it has been a frequent target for criticism over emissions, particularly the livestock sector. With the exception of the Government dictating to people what they can and cannot eat, does the Assembly Government recognise that, in the global economy, any loss of production of cattle fed on grassland in Wales will result in a greater demand for meat from areas such as South America

Brynle Williams: Prynhawn da, Weinidog. Mae sector amaethyddol Cymru wedi dangos cryn dipyn o barodrwydd i fynd i’r afael ag allyriadau carbon drwy wella’i effeithlonrwydd ynni wrth weithredu a thrwy gynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy ar ffermydd, ymhlith nifer o gynlluniau eraill. Er ei fod yn cynhyrchu cynnyrch hanfodol, sef bwyd, na all neb fyw hebddo, bu’n destun beirniadaeth yn aml ynghylch allyriadau, yn enwedig yng nghyswllt y sector da byw. Ac eithrio sefyllfa lle byddai’r Llywodraeth yn dweud wrth bobl beth y gallant a beth na allant ei fwyta, a yw Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn cydnabod y bydd peidio â chynhyrchu gwartheg sy’n bwydo ar laswelltir yng Nghymru, yn yr economi fyd-eang, yn arwain at fwy o alw

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where, as we all know, vast tracts of irreplaceable rainforest habitat have been slashed and burned simply to accommodate the expanding livestock ranches there? Therefore, the maintenance of a viable red meat sector in Wales has a net benefit for global carbon emissions.

am gig o ardaloedd megis De America, lle mae rhannau helaeth o gynefin fforestydd glaw anadnewyddadwy, fel y gwyddom i gyd, wedi eu clirio a’u llosgi er mwyn gwneud lle i’r ffermydd da byw sy’n ehangu yno? Felly, gallai cynnal a chadw sector cig coch hyfyw yng Nghymru arwain at fanteision clir o ran allyriadau carbon byd-eang.

Jane Davidson: The Minister for Rural Affairs, who has responsibility for this matter, has commissioned specific work from Professor Gareth Wyn-Jones to look at what reductions can be wrought from agriculture and land use. His report will go to Elin in due course, after which it will come to the Climate Change Commission for Wales. As chair of Elin’s group, Gareth Wyn-Jones is a member of the commission, which, as you know, has all-party, all-sector representation to look at these issues.

Jane Davidson: Mae’r Gweinidog dros Faterion Gwledig, sy’n gyfrifol am y mater hwn, wedi comisiynu gwaith penodol gan yr Athro Gareth Wyn-Jones i edrych ar y modd y gellir lleihau allyriadau carbon ym maes amaethyddiaeth a defnyddio tir. Caiff ei adroddiad ei anfon at Elin maes o law, ac wedyn bydd yn dod at Gomisiwn Cymru ar y Newid yn yr Hinsawdd. Fel cadeirydd grŵp Elin, mae Gareth Wyn-Jones yn aelod o’r comisiwn sydd, fel y gwyddoch, yn cynnwys cynrychiolaeth o bob plaid a phob sector i edrych ar y materion hyn.

Tai Fforddiadwy Affordable Housing

C4 Nerys Evans: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am dai fforddiadwy yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1132(ESH)

Q4 Nerys Evans: Will the Minister make a statement on affordable housing in Wales? OAQ(3)1132(ESH)

The Deputy Minister for Housing and Regeneration (Jocelyn Davies): We continue to work with partners to increase the supply of, and access to, affordable housing across Wales. Affordable housing delivery statements have largely been completed by planning authorities, and these will help to deliver the Welsh Government’s target of providing 6,500 additional affordable homes in Wales by the end of the third Assembly.

Y Dirprwy Weinidog dros Dai ac Adfywio (Jocelyn Davies): Yr ydym yn parhau i weithio gyda phartneriaid i gynyddu’r cyflenwad o dai fforddiadwy a mynediad iddynt ledled Cymru. Mae datganiadau ar ddarparu tai fforddiadwy wedi eu cwblhau i raddau helaeth gan awdurdodau cynllunio, a bydd y rhain yn helpu cyflawni targed Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, sef darparu 6,500 o gartrefi fforddiadwy ychwanegol yng Nghymru erbyn diwedd y trydydd Cynulliad.

Nerys Evans: Nid oes eisiau imi ddweud wrthych fod angen dirfawr am dai fforddiadwy. Mae problemau’r Gymru wledig yn wahanol iawn, gan fod llai o dai a llai o opsiynau ar gyfer prynu, rhentu, a thai cymdeithasol ac ati. O ystyried y pwysau sydd yn y maes hwn, a yw’ch Llywodraeth yn ystyried y potensial i gynghorau adeiladu tai cymdeithasol newydd?

Nerys Evans: I do not need to tell you that that there is dire need of more affordable housing. The problems in rural Wales are very different, because there are fewer houses and fewer options for buying, renting and social housing, and so on. Given the pressure on this area, is your Government considering the potential of allowing councils to build new social housing?

Jocelyn Davies: You are right to say that there is potential in rural areas, but it is worth saying that, between 2007 and 2009, 27 per

Jocelyn Davies: Yr ydych yn gywir wrth ddweud bod potensial mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Ond mae’n werth dweud bod 27 y

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cent of all affordable housing units were delivered through planning obligations, resulting in 1,156 units, 482 of which were in rural authorities and national park areas.

cant o’r holl unedau tai fforddiadwy, rhwng 2007 a 2009, wedi’u darparu drwy rwymedigaethau cynllunio, ac arweiniodd hynny at 1,156 o unedau, 482 ohonynt yn ardaloedd awdurdodau gwledig a pharciau cenedlaethol.

I take your point about local authorities building this type of housing, and they do talk about that from time to time, some more seriously than others. I am in discussions with a particular local authority, and we are proactively assessing the full impact of new build. As soon as I have any news on that, I will write to you to let you know.

Yr wyf yn derbyn eich pwynt ynghylch awdurdodau lleol yn adeiladu tai o’r fath, a byddant yn siarad am hynny o bryd i’w gilydd, rhai’n fwy o ddifrif nag eraill. Yr wyf wrthi’n trafod gydag awdurdod lleol penodol, ac yr ydym yn cymryd camau rhagweithiol i asesu effaith lawn adeiladu tai newydd. Cyn gynted ag y bydd gennyf newydd am hynny, ysgrifennaf atoch i roi gwybod ichi.

Angela Burns: Deputy Minister, I raised the shortage of affordable housing in national parks with you in July 2009, and I know that you are trying to tackle the issue. However, I want to bring to your attention the fact that, although the national parks have signed up to the planning agreements, which usually demand that 30 per cent of all new housing be affordable, great big new housing estates are not going to be built in the parks because of their nature. Any housing developments tend to be conversions of derelict buildings, farm barns and so on. I have been approached by a number of people about the situation that we are now in. A farm barn may be converted into three properties but, because of the build costs, it is impossible to squash an affordable house into the development, too, and despite offering alternative land on which to build affordable housing, developers are being turned down because of the rigidity of the rule. The net result is that no affordable houses have yet been built in the parks. Will you look at that situation for us, which has arisen on a number of occasions?

Angela Burns: Ddirprwy Weinidog, codais y pwynt am brinder tai fforddiadwy mewn parciau cenedlaethol gyda chi ym mis Gorffennaf 2009, a gwn eich bod yn ceisio mynd i’r afael â’r mater. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn dynnu’ch sylw at y ffaith na fydd ystadau mawr o dai newydd yn cael eu hadeiladu yn y parciau cenedlaethol oherwydd eu natur, er bod y parciau wedi ymrwymo i’r cytundebau cynllunio sydd fel rheol yn ei gwneud yn ofynnol i 30 y cant o’r holl dai newydd fod yn fforddiadwy. Mae unrhyw ddatblygiadau tai yn tueddu i fod yn addasiadau o adeiladau gwag, ysguboriau fferm, ac yn y blaen. Mae nifer o bobl wedi fy holi am y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi ar hyn o bryd. Gellir troi ysgubor fferm yn dri eiddo, ond oherwydd costau adeiladu mae’n amhosibl gwasgu tŷ fforddiadwy i mewn i’r datblygiad hefyd, ac er y cynigir tir arall lle gellid adeiladu tai fforddiadwy, mae cynigion datblygwyr yn cael eu gwrthod oherwydd llymder y rheol. Y canlyniad clir yw nad oes yr un tŷ fforddiadwy wedi’i adeiladu hyd yma yn y parciau. A wnewch chi edrych, ar ein rhan, ar y sefyllfa honno sydd wedi codi droeon?

Jocelyn Davies: As I said, over the past few years, in rural authorities and national parks, 482 affordable units have been achieved through the planning obligation. That is very much to be welcomed, and it shows that the system has worked. I suppose that we could all find specific cases in which it has not worked well, but you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that we must allow development without a planning obligation

Jocelyn Davies: Fel y dywedais, yn ystod yr ychydig flynyddoedd diwethaf, mewn awdurdodau gwledig a pharciau cenedlaethol, y mae 482 o unedau fforddiadwy wedi’u hadeiladu drwy’r rhwymedigaeth gynllunio. Croesewir hynny’n fawr, ac y mae’n dangos bod y system wedi gweithio. Tybiaf y gallem i gyd ddod o hyd i achosion penodol lle nad yw wedi gweithio’n dda, ond ni allwch ei chael hi bob ffordd. Ni allwch ddweud ei bod

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and then complain that there are no affordable units. If you have a specific case in mind and if it has been concluded, I suggest that you write to the Minister for planning about it. I would certainly look at how the affordable housing delivery statements are bedding down after a year or two.

yn rhaid inni ganiatáu datblygiad heb rwymedigaeth gynllunio ac yna gwyno nad oes unedau fforddiadwy. Os oes gennych achos penodol mewn golwg, ac os yw wedi’i gwblhau, awgrymaf y dylech ysgrifennu at y Gweinidog dros gynllunio amdano. Byddaf yn sicr yn edrych ar y ffordd y mae’r datganiadau ar ddarparu tai fforddiadwy yn ymsefydlu ar ôl blwyddyn neu ddwy.

Peter Black: Deputy Minister, the Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Housing and Local Government) Order, which is currently going through Parliament and which we hope will come back to the Assembly, contains provisions that would allow a number of measures to help to improve the provision of affordable housing, not least the provisions on the right to buy and on second homes.

Peter Black: Ddirprwy Weinidog, mae Gorchymyn Arfaethedig Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Cymhwysedd Deddfwriaethol) (Tai a Llywodraeth Leol), sy’n mynd drwy Senedd y DU ar hyn o bryd ac y gobeithiwn ei weld yn dychwelyd i’r Cynulliad, yn cynnwys darpariaethau a fyddai’n caniatáu nifer o fesurau i helpu gwella’r broses o ddarparu tai fforddiadwy, yn enwedig y darpariaethau ar yr hawl i brynu ac ar ail gartrefi.

2.30 p.m.

Given that the Assembly yesterday voted with general support to devolve many powers, including all those relating to affordable housing, such as those in the LCO, will you give your assessment as to what impact any further delays in that housing LCO will have on your policies? Do you also believe that it is consistent for the Conservatives to oppose certain aspects of that LCO, when yesterday they voted to give those powers to us?

O gofio bod y Cynulliad wedi pleidleisio ddoe, gyda chefnogaeth gyffredinol, i ddatganoli nifer o bwerau, gan gynnwys yr holl bwerau’n ymwneud â thai fforddiadwy, megis y rheini sydd yn y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol, a wnewch chi roi eich asesiad o’r effaith y bydd unrhyw oedi pellach yn y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol hwnnw ar dai yn ei chael ar eich polisïau? A ydych hefyd yn credu ei bod yn gyson i’r Ceidwadwyr wrthwynebu rhai agweddau ar y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol hwnnw, ond iddynt bleidleisio ddoe i roi’r pwerau hynny inni?

Jocelyn Davies: You mention specific aspects of the legislative competence Order, but we ought to acknowledge that homelessness legislation would be contained in it, as well as the regulatory regime for housing associations. We must ensure that that is as robust as possible, otherwise there is a possibility that lenders will be reluctant to lend in Wales, and that is not a situation that can be tolerated. There has been considerable support for the legislative competence Order, as you quite rightly say, especially from housing professionals in Wales, including local authorities, housing associations, the voluntary sector, Shelter, Cymorth, tenants’ organisations and the

Jocelyn Davies: Yr oeddech yn sôn am agweddau penodol ar y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol, ond dylem gydnabod y byddai deddfwriaeth ar ddigartrefedd yn cael ei chynnwys ynddo, yn ogystal â’r drefn reoleiddio ar gyfer cymdeithasau tai. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod honno mor gadarn ag sy’n bosibl, oherwydd fel arall mae’n bosibil y bydd benthycwyr yn gyndyn o fenthyca yng Nghymru, ac nid yw’r sefyllfa honno’n un y gellir ei goddef. Cafwyd cryn gefnogaeth o blaid y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol, fel y dywedwch yn hollol gywir, yn enwedig gan weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes tai yng Nghymru, gan gynnwys awdurdodau lleol,

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Welsh Local Government Association. Almost three years of work has gone into the production of it. Our Assembly committee gives it full support, and the Welsh Affairs Select Committee report is also very supportive. A great deal of work has gone into the policy development that underpins the LCO and I think that anybody who stands in the way of this would be arrogant. It would be illogical to do so as all that work would be wasted.

cymdeithasau tai, y sector gwirfoddol, Shelter, Cymorth, sefydliadau tenantiaid a Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru. Gweithiwyd am bron i dair blynedd i’w lunio. Mae ein pwyllgor yn y Cynulliad yn ei gefnogi’n llwyr, ac mae adroddiad y Pwyllgor Dethol ar Faterion Cymreig hefyd yn gefnogol iawn. Gwnaed llawer iawn o waith i ddatblygu’r polisi sy’n sail i’r Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol, a chredaf y byddai pwy bynnag sy’n ceisio’i rwystro yn haerllug. Ni fyddai gwneud hynny’n rhesymegol, oherwydd byddai’r holl waith hwnnw’n troi’n wastraff.

Angela Burns: I want to come back to you on the answer that you gave me. While I totally accept that we need to let the affordable housing plans bed in, we are still talking about a complete lack of progress. This is not just one case; it is a number of cases. Pembrokeshire Coast national park has had 21 affordable houses in two years. Some parts of the area have great social deprivation and there is a crying need for affordable housing. That planning department is totally mired down; there is no progress and it needs to be looked at. I would urge you again, Deputy Minister, to direct some of your attention to that matter because we are not moving forward in Pembrokeshire at all.

Angela Burns: Hoffwn ddychwelyd atoch ar yr ateb a roesoch imi. Er fy mod yn derbyn yn llwyr fod angen inni adael i’r cynlluniau tai fforddiadwy ymsefydlu, yr ydym yn dal i sôn am ddiffyg cynnydd llwyr. Nid un achos yn unig yw hwn; mae’n ymwneud â nifer o achosion. Mae parc cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro wedi cael 21 o dai fforddiadwy mewn dwy flynedd. Mae llawer iawn o amddifadedd cymdeithasol mewn rhai rhannau o’r ardal, ac y mae angen dybryd am dai fforddiadwy. Mae’r adran gynllunio dan sylw mewn trafferth enbyd; nid oes cynnydd o gwbl, ac mae angen mynd i’r afael â hynny. Fe’ch anogaf eto, Ddirprwy Weinidog, i gyfeirio rhywfaint o’ch sylw at y mater hwnnw, oherwydd nid ydym yn symud ymlaen o gwbl yn Sir Benfro.

Jocelyn Davies: If you think that there is any way in which we can improve the regime for the affordable housing delivery statements—planning is a matter that is the direct responsibility of the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, although I deal with housing—and if you have specific cases, we are quite happy to look at them. I will repeat what I said earlier in that planning obligation, by our figures, has definitely delivered affordable housing units. It has not worked as well perhaps in every single area, and I am sure that the Minister, who is present in the Chamber, has heard you and will be very happy to look at that.

Jocelyn Davies: Os credwch fod unrhyw ffordd y gallwn wella’r drefn ar gyfer datganiadau ar ddarparu tai fforddiadwy—mae cynllunio’n fater sy’n gyfrifoldeb uniongyrchol i’r Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai, er fy mod i’n ymdrin â thai—ac os oes gennych achosion penodol, byddem yn fodlon iawn eu hystyried. Ailadroddaf yr hyn a ddywedais yn gynharach, sef bod y rhwymedigaeth cynllunio, yn ôl ein ffigurau ni, yn sicr wedi darparu unedau tai fforddiadwy. Mae’n bosibl nad yw wedi bod mor llwyddiannus ym mhob ardal, ac yr wyf yn siŵr fod y Gweinidog, sy’n bresennol yn y Siambr, wedi eich clywed ac y bydd yn fodlon iawn ystyried y mater.

Recycle Ailgylchu

Q5 David Melding: What measures are in C5 David Melding: Pa fesurau sydd ar waith

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place to increase the proportion of waste recycled in Wales? OAQ(3)1158(ESH)

i gynyddu cyfran y gwastraff sy’n cael ei ailgylchu yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1158(ESH)

Jane Davidson: The Assembly Government is ensuring that as much recyclate as possible that is produced in Wales will be used in Wales, where environmentally and economically feasible. This includes support for the use of these recyclates in Welsh manufacturing. Since 2001, just over £250 million has been invested in municipal waste recycling in Wales.

Jane Davidson: Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn sicrhau bod cymaint â phosibl a o ddefnydd ailgylchu a gynhyrchir yng Nghymru yn cael ei ddefnyddio yng Nghymru, lle mae hynny’n ymarferol yn amgylcheddol ac yn economaidd. Mae hynny’n cynnwys cymorth i ddefnyddio’r deunyddiau ailgylchu hyn wrth weithgynhyrchu yng Nghymru. Er 2001, buddsoddwyd ychydig dros £250 miliwn mewn ailgylchu gwastraff trefol yng Nghymru.

David Melding: As you hinted in your answer, an awful lot of what the public thinks of as recycling is actually waste recovery. Although I would not say that it is feasible to recycle within Wales all waste that is recovered in Wales—we are part of the UK market in terms of effectively using resources and recycling them—there is still a high proportion that has to be transported long distances before it finds another use. If we do not tackle this in the medium term, it could undermine the incentive to the public to take recycling seriously.

David Melding: Fel yr awgrymwyd yn eich ateb, adfer gwastraff mewn gwirionedd yw llawer iawn o’r gwaith y mae’r cyhoedd yn ei ystyried yn ailgylchu. Er na fyddwn yn dweud ei bod yn ymarferol i’r holl wastraff sy’n cael ei adfer yng Nghymru gael ei ailgylchu yng Nghymru—yr ydym yn rhan o farchnad y DU o ran defnyddio adnoddau’n effeithiol a’u hailgylchu—mae llawer iawn o wastraff o hyd sy’n gorfod cael ei gludo dros bellteroedd maith nes ceir defnydd arall iddo. Os nad awn i’r afael â’r mater hwn yn y tymor canolig, gallai danseilio’r cymhelliant i’r cyhoedd fod o ddifrif ynghylch ailgylchu.

Jane Davidson: We need to tackle it in all ways. We need to reduce the amount of waste that we produce, reuse whatever we can, and recycle as much as possible, so that what we are left with is a very small amount of residual waste that may be appropriate for use in creating energy. I was at St Julian’s Comprehensive School in Newport this morning, which was acting as a host for the day to point out to the people of Newport that anything with a plug can be recycled. From the beginning of February, there are new requirements on anyone who sells batteries in large quantities to also provide a recycling bin to take back old batteries. So, this is developing quickly, and those types of initiatives that involve young people as well are extremely important in getting the message over to communities.

Jane Davidson: Mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â’r mater ym mhob ffordd. Mae angen inni leihau faint o wastraff a gynhyrchwn, ailddefnyddio beth bynnag y gallwn, ac ailgylchu cymaint ag sy’n bosibl, fel mai’r hyn sy’n weddill yw ychydig bach iawn o wastraff gweddilliol a allai fod yn addas i’w ddefnyddio i greu ynni. Yr oeddwn yn Ysgol Gyfun St Julian’s yng Nghasnewydd y bore yma, a oedd yn cynnal diwrnod i ddangos i bobl Casnewydd bod modd ailgylchu popeth sydd â phlwg. Ers dechrau mis Chwefror, mae’n ofynnol i bawb sy’n gwerthu llawer o fatris ddarparu bin ailgylchu hefyd er mwyn cymryd hen fatris yn ôl. Felly, mae pethau’n datblygu’n gyflym, ac mae’r mathau hynny o fentrau, sydd hefyd yn cynnwys pobl ifanc, yn eithriadol o bwysig wrth gyfleu’r neges i gymunedau.

David Lloyd: Weinidog, mae pobl yn ailgylchu canran uwch o’u gwastraff pan fyddant yn cael mwy o wybodaeth am y broses ailgylchu. Byddwch hefyd yn

David Lloyd: Minister, people recycle a higher percentage of their waste when they receive more information about the recycling process. You will also be aware of the

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ymwybodol o Fesur arfaethedig fy nghyfaill, Nerys Evans, i geisio gwneud y system ailgylchu yn fwy tryloyw. A fyddech yn derbyn y byddai mecanwaith gorfodol fel a gynigir ym Mesur arfaethedig Nerys yn fwy llwyddiannus o ran hyrwyddo ailgylchu na’r mecanwaith gwirfoddol presennol?

proposed Measure by my friend, Nerys Evans, to try to make the recycling system more transparent. Do you accept that an obligatory mechanism, as proposed in Nerys’s proposed Measure, would be more successful in promoting recycling than the current voluntary mechanism?

Jane Davidson: We have had many discussions around Nerys’s Proposed Shipment of Waste for Recovery (Community Involvement Arrangements) (Wales) Measure, and we found in the early stages of the process that every Assembly Member wanted to achieve the outcome that Nerys wants to achieve. However, the legislation committee could not support the proposed Measure because it said that it did not believe that the proposed Measure was necessary to achieve its stated aim, which it suggests could be met without recourse to legislation. That has also been the Government’s view. I have already asked officials to beef-up the current arrangements. They have started work on amending WasteDataFlow, which is the mechanism by which we record these issues, to ensure that the appropriate information can be recorded. I have already given an assurance to Nerys and others that if that approach does not prove satisfactory, I will use the powers set out under section 30 of the Waste and Emissions Trading Act 2003 to require local authorities to collect the data.

Jane Davidson: Yr ydym wedi cael nifer o drafodaethau ar y Mesur Arfaethedig Cludo Gwastraff i’w Adfer (Ymgysylltiad Cymunedau â’r Trefniadau) (Cymru), sydd dan ofal Nerys, a gwelsom yn ystod camau cynnar y broses fod pob Aelod o’r Cynulliad am sicrhau’r canlyniad y mae Nerys am ei sicrhau. Fodd bynnag, ni allai’r pwyllgor deddfwriaeth gefnogi’r Mesur arfaethedig, oherwydd dywedai nad oedd yn credu bod y Mesur arfaethedig yn angenrheidiol i sicrhau’r amcan a nodwyd ynddo, ac awgrymodd y gellid sicrhau’r amcan hwnnw heb gymorth deddfwriaeth. Dyna oedd barn y Llywodraeth hefyd. Yr wyf eisoes wedi gofyn i swyddogion gryfhau’r trefniadau presennol. Maent wedi dechrau gweithio ar ddiwygio WasteDataFlow, sef y system a ddefnyddir gennym i gofnodi’r materion hyn, er mwyn sicrhau y gellir cofnodi’r wybodaeth briodol. Yr wyf eisoes wedi rhoi sicrwydd i Nerys ac eraill y byddaf yn defnyddio’r pwerau a nodir dan adran 30 Deddf Gwastraff a Masnachu Allyriadau 2003, os na fydd y dull gweithredu hwnnw’n foddhaol, i’w gwneud yn ofynnol i awdurdodau lleol gasglu’r data.

Michael German: Minister, I am sure that you will be aware that the average household in Britain throws away about £500 worth of food and drink per annum—most of it because it has passed its use-by date. Your preferred solution for dealing with the organic fraction of municipal waste is anaerobic digestion. Anaerobic digesters will have to be built and encouraged throughout Wales. Therefore, are you disappointed by the recent Government announcement on what it expects to pay for the electricity generated from anaerobic digestion? It said that 9p per kWh is all that will be paid for energy derived from anaerobic digestion, compared with 30p to 40p per kWh for the costs of energy derived from photovoltaics. How do you anticipate that money will be found to build anaerobic digesters when there

Michael German: Weinidog, yr wyf yn siŵr y gwyddoch fod cartref cyffredin ym Mhrydain yn taflu gwerth tua £500 o fwyd a diod y flwyddyn—yn bennaf am fod dyddiad olaf eu defnyddio wedi mynd heibio. Eich hoff ddull o ymdrin â gwastraff trefol organig yw ei dreulio’n anerobig. Bydd yn rhaid adeiladu a hybu treulwyr anerobig ledled Cymru. Felly, a ydych yn siomedig yng nghyhoeddiad y Llywodraeth yn ddiweddar am yr hyn y mae’n disgwyl ei dalu am y trydan a gynhyrchir o waith treulio anerobig? Dywedodd mai 9c y kWh yn unig a delir am ynni o waith treulio anerobig, o’i gymharu â 30c i 40c y kWh am gostau ynni o systemau ffotofoltäig. Sut yr ydych yn rhagweld y bydd modd dod o hyd i arian i adeiladu treulwyr anerobig o gofio mai ychydig iawn a geir yn ôl am gynhyrchu trydan?

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is so little payback for the generation of electricity?

Jane Davidson: Part of the reason for Government to incentivise any technology is that it is not yet commercially viable. Anaerobic digestion attracts a far lower feed-in tariff because it is far more commercially viable than photovoltaics are at the moment, which attract a much higher feed-in tariff. You also made an important point about the amount of food that is thrown away, because as I said in my answer to David Melding, if we want to reduce the amount of waste we produce, we can buy less. One of the critical areas in the food debate has been moving away from the ‘buy one, get one or two free’ offers, and then finding that the second or third items are often thrown away. We want to encourage people to harness their own resources better in that context. The Assembly Government strongly supports AD in terms of the technology, and has put a major investment of £26 million into looking at a network of AD plants across Wales, in partnership with local authorities.

Jane Davidson: Rhan o reswm y Llywodraeth dros gynnig cymhelliant i unrhyw dechnoleg yw’r ffaith nad yw eto’n ymarferol yn fasnachol. Mae treulio anerobig yn denu tariff bwydo i mewn sy’n llawer is am ei fod, ar hyn o bryd, yn llawer mwy ymarferol yn fasnachol na systemau ffotofoltäig, sy’n denu tariff bwydo llawer uwch i mewn. Gwnaethoch bwynt pwysig iawn hefyd am faint o fwyd sy’n cael ei daflu oherwydd, fel y dywedais yn fy ateb i David Melding, os ydym am leihau faint o wastraff a gynhyrchwn, gallwn brynu llai. Un o’r meysydd hollbwysig yn y ddadl am fwyd oedd symud oddi wrth gynigion ‘prynu un a chael un neu ddau arall am ddim’, a gweld wedyn bod yr ail neu’r drydedd eitem yn aml yn cael ei thaflu. Yr ydym am annog pobl i ddefnyddio’u hadnoddau eu hunain yn well yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gryf o blaid treulio anerobig o ran y dechnoleg, ac y mae wedi buddsoddi £26 miliwn i edrych ar rwydwaith o safleoedd treulio anerobig ledled Cymru, mewn partneriaeth ag awdurdodau lleol.

Michael German: With regard to the economics of AD, you have put in some capital support for the building of each plant, but they would seek to be sustainable.

Michael German: O ran economeg treulio anerobig, yr ydych wedi cyfrannu cymorth cyfalaf i adeiladu pob safle, ond byddent yn ceisio bod yn gynaliadwy.

2.40 p.m.

As you rightly say, we could improve sustainability by reducing the amount of organic waste that is thrown away, but that of course would render anaerobic digesters even less economic. Can you tell us how you think that these projects will sustain themselves on a daily basis, when they are up and running, if they do not get a fair whack of monetary return for the electricity that they produce?

Fel y dywedwch yn gywir ddigon, gallem wella cynaliadwyedd drwy leihau faint o wastraff organig a gaiff ei daflu, ond byddai hynny wrth gwrs yn golygu y byddai treulwyr anerobig yn llai economaidd fyth. A allwch ddweud wrthym sut y credwch y bydd y prosiectau hyn yn eu cynnal eu hunain o ddydd i ddydd, pan fyddant ar waith, os na chânt arian teg am y trydan y maent yn ei gynhyrchu?

Jane Davidson: The discussions that we have been having with Welsh local authorities over the last two years have made sure that the package that we have jointly developed is financially stable. Therefore, there has been substantial support for local authorities for the future that has been undertaken by finance officials and the

Jane Davidson: Mae’r trafodaethau yr ydym wedi bod yn eu cael gydag awdurdodau lleol Cymru yn ystod y ddwy flynedd diwethaf wedi sicrhau bod y pecyn yr ydym wedi’i ddatblygu ar y cyd yn gadarn yn ariannol. Felly, mae swyddogion ariannol a Gweinidog Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi addo cymorth sylweddol i awdurdodau lleol ar gyfer y

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Assembly Government’s Minister. That is an integral part of the anaerobic digester network package that is currently out for procurement.

dyfodol. Mae hynny’n rhan annatod o’r pecyn ar y rhwydwaith treulwyr anerobig y gellir ei gaffael ar hyn o bryd.

Renewable Energies Ynni Adnewyddadwy

Q6 Nick Bourne: Will the Minister outline her policies for renewable energies? OAQ(3)1150(ESH)

C6 Nick Bourne: A wnaiff y Gweinidog amlinellu ei pholisïau ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy? OAQ(3)1150(ESH)

Jane Davidson: Our 2008 renewable energy route-map for Wales consultation set out how Wales could produce more electricity than we consume from renewable technologies by 2025. The consultation responses have informed the development of the Assembly Government’s low carbon energy policy statement, which I will publish in March. Announcements of extra funding to support community energy generation have been made in the last month.

Jane Davidson: Yr oedd ymgynghoriad ar drywydd ynni adnewyddadwy Cymru yn 2008 yn trafod sut y gallai Cymru gynhyrchu mwy o drydan nag a ddefnyddiwn drwy dechnolegau adnewyddadwy erbyn 2025. Cafodd yr ymatebion i’r ymgynghoriad hwnnw eu defnyddio i ddatblygu datganiad polisi ar ynni carbon isel Llywodraeth y Cynulliad. Bwriadaf gyhoeddi hwnnw ym mis Mawrth. Gwnaethpwyd cyhoeddiadau am arian ychwanegol i gefnogi prosiectau cymunedol i gynhyrchu ynni yn ystod y mis diwethaf.

Nick Bourne: In support of solar energy, I encourage the Minister to do what she can to promote its use in Britain. At the moment, only 5 per cent of our energy comes from the solar side and the proportion is much greater in many other countries. In Wales, we have Sharp in Wrexham, which contributes massively to the production of solar panels, but only a small proportion of its sales are within the UK and, clearly, only a small part of those are in Wales. I know that the Minister is committed to this new technology, but I encourage her to do whatever possible, not only because it is sensible, but because it will help our home-grown industry in Wales.

Nick Bourne: I hybu ynni’r haul, anogaf y Gweinidog i wneud yr hyn a all i hyrwyddo’i ddefnyddio ym Mhrydain. Ar hyn o bryd, 5 y cant yn unig o’n hynni a ddaw o ynni’r haul, ac mae’r gyfran yn uwch o lawer mewn nifer o wledydd eraill. Yng Nghymru, mae gennym Sharp yn Wrecsam, sy’n cyfrannu’n sylweddol at gynhyrchu paneli solar, ond cyfran fach yn unig o’i werthiant sy’n deillio o’r DU, a chyfran fach yn unig o hwnnw sy’n deillio o Gymru, mae’n amlwg. Gwn fod y Gweinidog wedi ymrwymo i’r dechnoleg newydd hon, ond fe’i hanogaf i wneud popeth posibl, nid yn unig am fod hynny’n ddoeth, ond am y bydd yn helpu ein diwydiant cartref yng Nghymru.

Jane Davidson: I agree that it is important to promote the benefits of renewable energy. It is my intention to produce a written statement before the end of this week on the UK Government’s announcement about feed-in tariffs, so that we have something on the Assembly record that you and other Members will be able to take to your constituents to encourage them to look at the opportunities that are now available to them as a result of the introduction of feed-in tariffs. It is interesting that, in the context of photovoltaics, which have been seen as not

Jane Davidson: Cytunaf ei bod yn bwysig hyrwyddo manteision ynni adnewyddadwy. Fy mwriad yw cyhoeddi datganiad ysgrifenedig cyn diwedd yr wythnos hon ar gyhoeddiad Llywodraeth y DU ar dariffau bwydo i mewn, fel y bydd gennym rywbeth ar gofnod y Cynulliad y gallwch chi ac Aelodau eraill ei ddangos i’ch etholwyr, i’w hannog i ystyried y cyfleoedd sydd ar gael iddynt erbyn hyn yn sgil cyflwyno tariffau bwydo i mewn. Mae’n ddiddorol, yng nghyd-destun systemau ffotofoltäig na chawsant eu hystyried yn systemau cost-effeithiol yn y

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cost-effective in the past, The Guardian’s ‘Money’ section on Saturday ran with the fact that they are probably one of the best investments around at the moment because they give people the opportunity to double their money in 25 years and energy to boot.

gorffennol, fod adran The Guardian ar arian ddydd Sadwrn yn nodi eu bod ar hyn o bryd, mae’n debyg, ymhlith y cyfleoedd buddsoddi gorau sydd ar gael, am eu bod yn gyfle i bobl ddyblu eu harian ymhen 25 mlynedd a chael ynni’n ogystal.

Rosemary Butler: One of the most sustainable ways of producing renewable energy is through tidal or wave power. If the Severn barrage goes ahead, it is expected that it will produce some 5 per cent of the UK’s electricity requirements, as well as helping to prevent flooding. Have you received any indication from Ministers in Westminster as to when the current feasibility study will be published?

Rosemary Butler: Un o’r ffyrdd mwyaf cynaliadwy o gynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy yw drwy ynni’r llanw neu ynni’r tonnau. Os caiff morglawdd Hafren ei adeiladu, disgwylir y bydd yn bodloni tua 5 y cant o ofynion y DU o ran trydan, yn ogystal â helpu atal llifogydd. A ydych wedi cael unrhyw awgrym gan Weinidogion San Steffan pryd y caiff yr astudiaeth ddichonoldeb gyfredol ei chyhoeddi?

Jane Davidson: No, because the Severn tidal power feasibility study is still under way. It is important to say that, although you talked about a feasibility study for the Severn barrage, the existing Severn barrage proposal is only one of five on the main shortlist and then we, as the Welsh Assembly Government, put in some additional funding, with the south-west regional Government, to look at new technologies to ensure that we were not missing a trick with any of the new opportunities, because this is a fast-moving field. So, there are studies of the five main proposals on the shortlist, plus two additional technologies, under way at the moment. All aspects are being looked at: the energy return, the economic and social aspects, the environmental aspects and the environmental obligations. My perspective is primarily that of a Minister for the environment because any of the projects would be so large in energy terms that they would be determined by the UK Government.

Jane Davidson: Nac ydwyf, oherwydd mae’r astudiaeth ddichonoldeb o ynni’r tonnau ar afon Hafren ar y gweill o hyd. Mae’n bwysig nodi, er ichi sôn am astudiaeth ddichonoldeb ar gyfer morglawdd Hafren, nad yw’r cynnig ar gyfer morglawdd Hafren ond yn un o bump sydd ar y brif restr fer. Yna byddwn ni, fel Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru, yn cyfrannu cyllid ychwanegol, gyda Llywodraeth ranbarthol de-orllewin Lloegr, er mwyn ystyried technolegau newydd i sicrhau nad ydym yn methu dim o ran y cyfleoedd newydd sy’n ymddangos, oherwydd mae hwn yn faes sy’n datblygu’n gyflym. Felly, mae astudiaethau o’r pum prif gynnig sydd ar y rhestr fer, yn ogystal â thechnolegau ychwanegol, ar y gweill ar hyn o bryd. Ystyrir pob agwedd: yr ynni a grëir, yr agweddau economaidd a chymdeithasol, yr agweddau amgylcheddol a’r rhwymedigaethau amgylcheddol. Safbwynt Gweinidog dros yr amgylchedd yw fy safbwynt i yn bennaf, oherwydd byddai pob un o’r prosiectau mor fawr o ran ynni fel mai Llywodraeth y DU fyddai’n eu penderfynu.

Janet Ryder: Do you share my frustration that, whatever your policies for renewable energy are, they are constrained by the existence of the Infrastructure Planning Commission, which can override any Assembly or local government decision, any Assembly Government policy direction and mitigate any local involvement in planning? Would you join others in campaigning against this body to ensure that the democratic deficit that it has introduced is

Janet Ryder: A ydych yn teimlo mor rhwystredig â minnau, beth bynnag yw eich polisïau ar gyfer ynni adnewyddadwy, eu bod yn cael eu cyfyngu gan fodolaeth y Comisiwn Cynllunio Seilwaith, a all ddiystyru unrhyw benderfyniad gan y Cynulliad neu lywodraeth leol ac unrhyw gyfarwyddyd polisi gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, a lleihau unrhyw ymwneud lleol â chynllunio? A wnewch chi ymuno ag eraill i ymgyrchu yn erbyn y corff hwn, i sicrhau

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overcome? bod y diffyg democrataidd y mae wedi ei greu yn cael ei oresgyn?

Jane Davidson: That is not an accurate rendering of the function of the Infrastructure Planning Commission. As an Assembly, and as an Assembly Government, we have always sought executive powers to grant consents for large power stations under section 36 of the Electricity Act 1989, and we have always believed that that should be a matter for Welsh Ministers. The decisions that will be considered by the IPC will be transferred from UK Government Ministers. Local authorities’ functions are still enshrined fully in the Planning Act 2008. Under the current arrangements, Parliament, along with Ministers, will determine the national policies against which the Infrastructure Planning Commission will take its decisions in the same way as our national policies frame the action of the inspectorate.

Jane Davidson: Nid yw hynny’n adlewyrchiad cywir o swyddogaeth y Comisiwn Cynllunio Seilwaith. Fel Cynulliad, a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, yr ydym bob amser wedi ceisio cael pwerau gweithredol i roi caniatâd ar gyfer gorsafoedd pŵer mawr dan adran 36 Deddf Trydan 1989, ac yr ydym bob amser wedi credu y dylai hynny fod yn fater i Weinidogion Cymru. Bydd y penderfyniadau a ystyrir gan y Comisiwn Cynllunio Seilwaith yn cael eu trosglwyddo o Weinidogion Llywodraeth y DU. Caiff swyddogaethau awdurdodau lleol eu hymgorffori’n llawn o hyd yn Neddf Cynllunio 2008. Dan y trefniadau presennol, bydd Senedd y DU, ynghyd â Gweinidogion, yn pennu’r polisïau cenedlaethol ar gyfer gwneud ei bendefyniadau gan y Comisiwn Cynllunio Seilwaith, fel y mae ein polisïau cenedlaethol ni yn pennu camau gweithredu’r arolygiaeth.

Brian Gibbons: You will be aware, Minister, that conventional wisdom suggests that it can take 15 to 20 years for photovoltaics to pay back the cost of the investment in them. The news on the feed-in tariff is very welcome, because it highlights the economic benefits, as well as the renewable energy benefits, of going down this route. Do you think that there is a marketing job to be done here to reassure people that photovoltaics make sense in Wales, notwithstanding our generally less-than-sunny climes?

Brian Gibbons: Gwyddoch, Weinidog, fod synnwyr cyffredin yn awgrymu y gall gymryd 15 i 20 mlynedd i systemau ffotofoltäig ad-dalu’r arian a fuddsoddir ynddynt. Croesewir y newyddion am y tariff bwydo i mewn, oherwydd mae’n tynnu sylw at y manteision economaidd yn ogystal â’r manteision o ran ynni adnewyddadwy a ddaw o ddilyn y llwybr hwn. A ydych yn credu bod angen gwaith marchnata yn y cyswllt hwn i roi tawelwch meddwl i bobl fod systemau ffotofoltäig yn gwneud synnwyr yng Nghymru, er nad yw ein hinsawdd mor heulog â hynny’n gyffredinol?

Jane Davidson: Yes, I agree. The point that you made at the outset was that if you made a straight economic analysis of the use of solar panels or photovoltaics to produce electricity, as opposed to for hot water, where the return is much quicker, it would probably be the least attractive option financially. That was on top of people’s concerns that our climate would not support it. However, the feed-in tariff now means that the highest level of investment is coming through. That is in recognition of the fact that the technology is commercially available, it is available now, the skills and expertise to install it exist, and we are using it in the context of work being

Jane Davidson: Cytunaf. Y pwynt a wnaethoch ar y dechrau oedd pe baech yn gwneud dadansoddiad economaidd pur o’r modd y caiff paneli solar neu systemau ffotofoltäig eu defnyddio i gynhyrchu trydan, yn hytrach na chynhesu dŵr, lle gwelir manteision ariannol ynghynt o lawer, mae’n debyg mai dyna a fyddai’r dewis lleiaf deniadol yn ariannol. Yr oedd hynny’n ychwanegol at bryderon pobl na fyddai ein hinsawdd yn medru cynnal hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae’r tariff bwydo i mewn yn golygu bellach fod y lefel uchaf o fuddsoddi’n dod yn amlwg. Mae hynny’n cydnabod y ffaith fod y dechnoleg ar gael yn

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done in housing, regeneration and energy efficiency through the home energy efficiency scheme and others. The feed-in tariff means that the technology is now accessible for individual households.

fasnachol, mae ar gael yn awr, mae’r sgiliau a’r arbenigedd yn bodoli i’w gosod, ac yr ydym yn ei defnyddio yng nghyd-destun gwaith ym maes tai, adfywio ac effeithlonrwydd ynni, drwy’r cynllun effeithlonrwydd ynni cartref a chynlluniau eraill. Mae’r tariff bwydo i mewn yn golygu bod y dechnoleg ar gael bellach i gartrefi unigol.

Support the Homeless Cefnogi Pobl Ddigartref

Q7 Paul Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Assembly Government’s priorities to support the homeless? OAQ(3)1145(ESH)

C7 Paul Davies: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am flaenoriaethau Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gefnogi pobl ddigartref? OAQ(3)1145(ESH)

Jocelyn Davies: Our priority, as set out in our 10-year homelessness plan, is for as much as possible to be done to prevent homelessness. Early intervention and co-operation between organisations is essential to achieve this, and to help people who become homeless to find suitable accommodation as quickly as possible. I hope that you would agree that if the proposed legislative competence Order on housing does not go through this time the Welsh Government will not have the powers that it requires to achieve its aims, and the National Assembly will still not have any legislative powers in this area at all.

Jocelyn Davies: Ein blaenoriaeth, fel y mae wedi ei gosod allan yn ein cynllun 10 mlynedd ar ddigartrefedd, yw gwneud cymaint ag sy’n bosibl i atal digartrefedd. Mae ymyrryd yn gynnar a chydweithredu rhwng sefydliadau yn hanfodol i sicrhau hynny, ac i helpu pobl sy’n eu cael eu hunain yn ddigartref i ddod o hyd i lety addas cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl. Gobeithio y cytunwch na fydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru y pwerau gofynnol i gyflawni ei hamcanion os na chaiff y Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol arfaethedig ar dai ei basio y tro hwn, ac na fydd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad eto ddim pwerau deddfwriaethol yn y maes hwn.

Paul Davies: I am grateful for the answer, Deputy Minister. I recently wrote to you regarding representations that I had received from organisations that support homeless people about the provision of funding for their work. Some organisations receive funding under the Supporting People revenue grant scheme directly from the Welsh Assembly Government, while others receive it from local authorities, leading to concerns about parity across the sector. In the letter that I received from you last week, you confirmed that you would review the current system to see whether such organisations could be funded more effectively. Could you tell us, Deputy Minister, when you will be in a position to advise Members of the outcome of this review?

Paul Davies: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am yr ateb hwnnw, Ddirprwy Weinidog. Ysgrifennais atoch yn ddiweddar am sylwadau a gefais gan sefydliadau sy’n cynorthwyo pobl ddigartref, ynghylch darparu cyllid ar gyfer eu gwaith. Mae rhai sefydliadau’n cael cyllid yn uniongyrchol gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, dan gynllun grant refeniw Cefnogi Pobl, tra bydd sefydliadau eraill yn cael cyllid gan awdurdodau lleol, ac mae hynny’n arwain at bryderon ynghylch cydraddoldeb ar draws y sector. Yn y llythyr a gefais gennych yr wythnos diwethaf, yr oeddech yn cadarnhau y byddech yn adolygu’r system bresennol i weld a ellid cyllido sefydliadau o’r fath yn fwy effeithiol. Ddirprwy Weinidog, a allech ddweud wrthym pryd y byddwch mewn sefyllfa i ddweud wrth Aelodau am ganlyniad yr adolygiad hwn?

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Jocelyn Davies: The Supporting People review is being carried out independently by Mansel Aylward. We have brought together commissioners and providers to work on the terms of reference for the review. I am not able to tell you now when the review will be concluded, because it is an independent review and will take some time. I would imagine that I will probably have initial feedback within a month or so, but I do not think that the review will be concluded before the summer. The support providers and commissioners have come together and given their full support to the review and the way that it is being carried out.

Jocelyn Davies: Mae’r adolygiad Cefnogi Pobl yn cael ei wneud yn annibynnol gan Mansel Aylward. Yr ydym wedi dod â chomisiynwyr a darparwyr ynghyd i weithio ar gylch gorchwyl yr adolygiad. Ni allaf ddweud wrthych yn awr pryd y daw’r adolygiad i ben, gan mai adolygiad annibynnol ydyw a bydd yn cymryd cryn amser. Dychmygaf y byddaf yn cael adborth cychwynnol cyn pen tua mis, mae’n debyg, ond ni chredaf y bydd yr adolygiad yn dod i ben cyn yr haf. Mae’r comisiynwyr a’r darparwyr cymorth wedi dod ynghyd ac wedi cefnogi’r adolygiad yn llawn ynghyd â’r modd y mae’n cael ei wneud.

2.50 p.m.

Gareth Jones: Un o’r camau allweddol i rwystro digartrefedd yw sicrhau nad yw prynwyr tro cyntaf yn gorwario. O gofio hynny, a wnewch chi ymuno â mi wrth longyfarch un o’m hetholwyr, Mr Stephen Jones, a’i ymdrechion wrth sefydlu’r First Home Network, sef cyfres o seminarau wedi’u cynllunio’n arbennig sy’n dod â chynrychiolwyr o bob rhan o’r sector tai—cyhoeddus a phreifat—at ei gilydd i gyfarfod darpar brynwyr tro cyntaf er mwyn dangos iddynt pa gefnogaeth sydd ar gael ar eu cyfer, a sut y gallant ddod o hyd i’w cartref fforddiadwy cyntaf gyda help Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un, awdurdodau lleol ac ati? Mae’r diweddaraf yn y gyfres lwyddiannus hon yn digwydd yn Venue Cymru, Llandudno yn ddiweddarach yn y mis. A allwch chi fel Gweinidog, neu un o’ch swyddogion, edrych ar yr hyn sy’n digwydd yn y gogledd er mwyn gweld sut all Llywodraeth Cymru’n Un gefnogi’r esiampl dda hon o weithio mewn partneriaeth yn y dyfodol?

Gareth Jones: One of the key steps in the prevention of homelessness is to ensure that first-time buyers do not spent too much money. Remembering that, will you join me in congratulating one of my constituents, Mr Stephen Jones, on his efforts to establish First Home Network, a series of specially designed seminars that bring together representatives from each part of the housing sector—public and private—to meet prospective first-time buyers in order to demonstrate what support is available, and how they can find their first affordable home with the help of the One Wales Government, local government and so on? The latest in this successful series is to be held at Venue Cymru, Llandudno, later in the month. Would you, Minister, or one of your officials, look at what is happening in north Wales to see how the One Wales Government could support this good example of partnership working in the future?

Jocelyn Davies: I know that you have raised this particular initiative several times in the Chamber and have written to me on several occasions about it. It is always pleasing to see local initiatives, and I wish it every success. You invited me to attend the event later this month. I will not be able to attend on that particular day, but I will certainly speak to my officials about it. It would be appropriate for us, in time for that event, to have a meeting to discuss it, or perhaps Stephen Jones could speak to officials. Although I will not be able to attend, I could perhaps

Jocelyn Davies: Gwn eich bod wedi codi’r fenter benodol hon droeon yn y Siambr ac wedi ysgrifennu ataf amdano droeon. Mae bob amser yn braf gweld mentrau lleol, a dymunaf bob llwyddiant iddi. Cefais fy ngwahodd gennych i ddod i’r digwyddiad yn ddiweddarach y mis hwn. Ni fyddaf yn gallu bod yn bresennol ar y diwrnod penodol hwnnw, ond byddaf yn siŵr o siarad â’m swyddogion amdano. Byddai’n briodol inni gael cyfarfod cyn y digwyddiad hwnnw i drafod y mater, neu efallai y gallai Stephen Jones siarad â’r swyddogion perthnasol. Er

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then write to you in advance of the meeting so that you would have something from me that you could share with the attendees.

na allaf fod yn bresennol, efallai y gallwn ysgrifennu atoch cyn y cyfarfod er mwyn ichi gael rhywbeth gennyf i’w rannu gyda’r rhai a fydd yn bresennol.

Green Initiatives Mentrau Gwyrdd

Q8 Helen Mary Jones: Will the Minister make a statement on the support given to green initiatives in Wales? OAQ(3)1154(ESH)

C8 Helen Mary Jones: A wnaiff y Gweinidog ddatganiad am y gefnogaeth a roddir i fentrau gwyrdd yng Nghymru? OAQ(3)1154(ESH)

Jane Davidson: The Welsh Assembly Government is supporting a range of initiatives to help reduce waste and increase recycling, reduce our carbon and ecological footprints, develop small-scale energy generation, and increase the number of species and habitats in favourable condition. That work aligns with established strategies for sustainable development and the environment as well as forthcoming strategies for climate change and waste.

Jane Davidson: Mae Llywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru yn cefnogi cyfres o fentrau a fydd yn helpu: lleihau gwastraff a chynyddu ein gweithgarwch ailgylchu, lleihau ein hôl-troed carbon a’n hôl-troed ecolegol, cynhyrchu ynni ar raddfa fach, a chynyddu nifer y rhywogaethau a’r cynefinoedd sydd mewn cyflwr da. Mae’r gwaith hwnnw’n cyd-fynd â strategaethau sydd eisoes wedi eu sefydlu ym maes datblygu cynaliadwy a’r amgylchedd, yn ogystal â strategaethau sydd i ddod ar y newid yn yr hinsawdd a gwastraff.

Helen Mary Jones: I am glad to hear you refer to microgeneration in your response, Minister. What support can the Assembly Government give to local businesses that want to invest in microgeneration and develop it?

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn falch eich clywed yn cyfeirio at ficrogynhyrchu yn eich ymateb, Weinidog. Pa gefnogaeth y gall Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei rhoi i fusnesau lleol sydd am fuddsoddi mewn microgynhyrchu a’i ddatblygu?

Jane Davidson: Both the Energy Saving Trust, which works with smaller businesses, and the Carbon Trust, which works with larger businesses, can help businesses to improve energy efficiency, and, where appropriate, support microgeneration schemes. The Carbon Trust offers interest-free loans to businesses, for example, which can be used to install solar thermal systems.

Jane Davidson: Gall yr Ymddiriedolaeth Arbed Ynni, sy’n gweithio gyda busnesau llai, a’r Ymddiriedolaeth Garbon, sy’n gweithio gyda busnesau mwy o faint, helpu busnesau i wella effeithlonrwydd ynni, a chefnogi cynlluniau microgynhyrchu, lle bo hynny’n briodol. Mae’r Ymddiriedolaeth Garbon yn cynnig benthyciadau di-log i fusnesau, er enghraifft, y gellir eu defnyddio i osod systemau solar thermol.

Mohammad Asghar: The Osbaston hydropower and fish pass scheme on the River Monnow combines renewable energy generation with a way to allow salmon and other fish to enter the river and spawn in it for the first time in 300 years. Will the Minister join me in congratulating all those involved in this scheme, which is a perfect example of the sort of green initiative that we should be supporting?

Mohammad Asghar: Mae cynllun ynni dŵr ac ysgol bysgod Tre-osbon ar afon Mynwy yn cyfuno gwaith cynhyrchu ynni adnewyddadwy â ffordd o alluogi eogiaid a physgod eraill i fynd i mewn i’r afon a silio ynddi am y tro cyntaf ers 300 mlynedd. A wnaiff y Gweinidog ymuno â mi i longyfarch pawb sy’n rhan o’r cynllun hwn? Mae’n enghraifft berffaith o’r math o fenter werdd y dylem fod yn ei chefnogi.

Jane Davidson: I am very happy to Jane Davidson: Yr wyf yn falch iawn cael

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congratulate all those who have successfully managed to get hydro-electric schemes off the mark to date. Their persistence has been really impressive. We are hoping that, with the introduction of feed-in tariffs, which will benefit hydro-electric schemes, there will be a rush of new schemes. I mentioned earlier that we have launched a community energy generation scheme in Cwm Clydach, which is looking to install two major turbines. The Government funding will contribute to the installation of the turbines, which will also generate a regular source of income for the community. Our bigger community energy generation schemes, which have come from the bottom up, from the community, are very important and encourage others to take this agenda forward.

llongyfarch pawb sydd wedi llwyddo i roi cynlluniau trydan dŵr ar waith hyd yn hyn. Mae eu dyfalbarhad wedi gwneud argraff fawr arnaf. Yr ydym yn gobeithio y bydd llu o gynlluniau newydd yn dod i’r amlwg yn sgil cyflwyno tariffau bwydo i mewn, a fydd yn fuddiol i gynlluniau trydan dŵr. Soniais yn gynharach ein bod wedi lansio cynllun cynhyrchu ynni cymunedol yng Nghwm Clydach, sy’n bwriadu gosod dau dyrbin mawr. Bydd cyllid gan y Llywodraeth yn cyfrannu at gost gosod y tyrbinau, a fydd hefyd yn cynhyrchu ffynhonnell reolaidd o incwm i’r gymuned. Mae ein cynlluniau cynhyrchu ynni cymunedol mwy o faint, sydd wedi dod o’r gwaelod i fyny, o’r gymuned, yn bwysig iawn ac yn annog eraill i hyrwyddo’r agenda hon.

Alun Davies: Minister, you will be familiar with the Green Valleys community project in the Brecon Beacons—it is a world-class project—which demonstrates how small communities can invest in these technologies and contribute to a reduction in carbon emissions. Would you agree that the real holy grail of this area of policy is bringing together projects that seek to reduce carbon emissions with those that will help to alleviate fuel poverty? The Green Valleys project in the Brecon Beacons is perhaps an example of how a community can become almost carbon negative in energy terms and address issues of rising fuel prices.

Alun Davies: Weinidog, yr ydych yn gyfarwydd â phrosiect cymunedol Cymoedd Gwyrdd ym Mannau Brycheiniog—mae’n brosiect o’r radd flaenaf—sy’n dangos sut y gall cymunedau bach fuddsoddi yn y technolegau hyn a chyfrannu at leihau allyriadau carbon. A fyddech yn cytuno mai nod gwirioneddol y maes polisi hwn yn y pen draw fydd cyfuno prosiectau sy’n ceisio lleihau allyriadau carbon â phrosiectau a fydd yn helpu lliniaru tlodi tanwydd? Efallai fod y prosiect Cymoedd Gwyrdd ym Mannau Brycheiniog yn enghraifft o’r ffordd y gall cymuned ddod yn garbon negyddol bron o ran ynni, a mynd i’r afael â phrisiau cynyddol tanwydd.

Jane Davidson: That is particularly important in rural areas, because many rural areas do not have access to the dual-fuel deals that those of use who live in urban areas can benefit from. People in rural areas therefore often have expensive energy arrangements, using liquefied petroleum gas or oil, and we know that, in comparison, renewable energy can be attractive financially and in terms of energy security. When the new renewable heat incentive comes in next year, its assistance for householders will make biomass and wood-burning boilers and cookers much more attractive, and I hope that many households in rural Wales will move to renewable energy for both electricity and space heating.

Jane Davidson: Mae hynny’n arbennig o bwysig mewn ardaloedd gwledig, oherwydd mae nifer o ardaloedd gwledig yn methu manteisio ar fargeinion tanwydd deuol, y gall y rheini ohonom sy’n byw mewn ardaloedd trefol fanteisio arnynt. Felly, bydd gan bobl mewn ardaloedd gwledig yn aml drefniadau ynni drud, sy’n golygu defnyddio olew neu nwy petrolewm hylifed, a gwyddom, o’u cymharu, y gall ynni adnewyddadwy fod yn ddeniadol yn ariannol ac o safbwynt diogelu ffynonellau ynni. Pan gaiff y cymhelliant gwres adnewyddadwy newydd ei gyflwyno flwyddyn nesaf, bydd y cymorth y bydd yn ei roi i ddeiliaid tai yn golygu y bydd boeleri a phoptai biomas a rhai sy’n llosgi coed yn fwy deniadol o lawer, a gobeithio y bydd nifer o gartrefi yng nghefn gwlad Cymru yn newid i ddefnyddio ynni adnewyddadwy i gynhyrchu

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trydan a gwres.

Atal Rheolau SefydlogSuspension of Standing Orders

The Minister for Business and Budget (Jane Hutt): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Fusnes a’r Gyllideb (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Orders Nos. 35.6 and 35.8:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 35.6 a 35.8:

suspends Standing Order No. 7.18(i) and that part of Standing Order No. 6.10 that requires the weekly announcement under Standing Order No. 6.3 to constitute the timetable for business in Plenary for the following week, to allow the motions under items 3 and 4 to be considered in Plenary on Wednesday 10 February 2010. (NDM4410)

yn atal Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.18(i) a’r rhan honno o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.10 sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol bod y cyhoeddiad wythnosol o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 6.3 yn darparu’r amserlen ar gyfer busnes yn y Cyfarfod Llawn yr wythnos ganlynol, er mwyn caniatáu i’r cynigion o dan eitemau 3 a 4 gael eu hystyried yn y Cyfarfod Llawn ddydd Mercher 10 Chwefror 2010. (NDM4410)

Y Llywydd: A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, datganaf fod y cynnig wedi’i dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: Are there any objections? I see that there are none. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Ethol Aelodau i BwyllgorauElection of Members to Committees

The Minister for Business and Budget (Jane Hutt): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Fusnes a’r Gyllideb (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3, elects Michael German (Liberal Democrats) in place of Mick Bates (Liberal Democrats) as a member of the Sustainability Committee. (NNDM4405)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol Michael German (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Cynaliadwyedd yn lle Mick Bates (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol). (NNDM4405)

I move that Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3 elects Jenny Randerson (Liberal Democrats) as a member of Legislation Committee No. 4 in place of Michael German (Liberal Democrats). (NNDM4406)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3 yn ethol Jenny Randerson (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelod o Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 4 yn lle Michael German (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol). (NNDM4406)

I move that Cynigiaf fod

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the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3 elects Jenny Randerson (Liberal Democrats) as a member of the Public Accounts Committee in place of Michael German (Liberal Democrats). (NNDM4407)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3 yn ethol Jenny Randerson (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus yn lle Michael German (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol). (NNDM4407)

I move that Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3 elects Michael German (Liberal Democrats) as a member of Legislation Committee No. 2 in place of Jenny Randerson (Liberal Democrats). (NNDM4408)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3 yn ethol Michael German (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelod o Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 2 yn lle Jenny Randerson (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol). (NNDM4408)

I move that Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3 elects Eleanor Burnham (Liberal Democrats) as a member of Legislation Committee No. 5 in place of Mick Bates (Liberal Democrats). (NNDM4409)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3 yn ethol Eleanor Burnham (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol) yn aelod o Bwyllgor Deddfwriaeth Rhif 5 yn lle Mick Bates (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol). (NNDM4409)

Y Llywydd: A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiadau? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, datganaf fod y cynigion wedi’u derbyn.

The Presiding Officer: Are there any objections? I see there are none. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motions are therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynigion.Motions agreed.

Enwebu Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru gan y CynulliadNomination by the Assembly of an Auditor General for Wales

Jonathan Morgan: I move that Jonathan Morgan: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

acting under paragraph 1(1) of Schedule 8 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, and having consulted representatives of local government bodies in Wales in accordance with paragraph 1(2), nominates Gillian Ann Body as Auditor General for Wales for a term which expires on 31 December 2010. (NNDM4404)

wrth weithredu o dan baragraff 1(1) o Atodlen 8 i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, ac ar ôl ymgynghori â chynrychiolwyr cyrff llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru yn unol â pharagraff 1(2), yn enwebu Gillian Ann Body i gael ei phenodi i swydd Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru am dymor sy’n dod i ben ar 31 Rhagfyr 2010. (NNDM4404)

Members will be aware that, last week, the Auditor General for Wales tendered his resignation to Her Majesty The Queen. This is not the time to consider the circumstances

Bydd yr Aelodau yn ymwybodol bod Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru wedi cyflwyno’i ymddiswyddiad i’w Mawrhydi Y Frenhines yr wythnos diwethaf. Nid dyma’r

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surrounding that resignation, but, in due course, it may be possible to learn valuable lessons from what has occurred, and these may be applied as part of the strengthening of the governance framework of the Wales Audit Office under the new legislative powers that the Assembly will acquire under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill.

amser i ystyried amgylchiadau’r ymddiswyddiad hwnnw, ond maes o law efallai y bydd modd dysgu gwersi gwerthfawr o’r hyn a ddigwyddodd, ac y bydd modd cymhwyso’r rheini wrth gryfhau fframwaith llywodraethu Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru dan y pwerau deddfwriaethol newydd y bydd y Cynulliad yn eu cael dan y Mesur Llywodraethu a Diwygio Cyfansoddiadol.

In the meantime, however, urgent practical steps need to be taken to deal with the unexpected vacancy. As an Assembly, we nominate candidates to Her Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Wales. Once a vacancy occurs, we have to move quickly, as there are many statutory functions that can only be discharged by the auditor general personally. A permanent appointment needs to be made as soon as possible, and the Public Accounts Committee is already considering arrangements to initiate the process. However, the process of identifying a suitable candidate is bound to take several months. We must also consider the additional time that it may take for a successful candidate to take up the appointment. I therefore propose, with the unanimous agreement of the Public Accounts Committee, that, in the meantime, we nominate an auditor general to hold office on an interim basis. That will enable the statutory functions of the office to be discharged—for example, the signing of accounts of public bodies, which will have to be laid before the Assembly—while the full, rigorous selection process proceeds.

Yn y cyfamser, fodd bynnag, mae angen cymryd camau ymarferol ar frys i ymdrin â’r swydd wag annisgwyl. Fel Cynulliad, byddwn yn enwebu ymgeiswyr i’w Mawrhydi er mwyn penodi Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Pan ddaw’r swydd yn wag, rhaid inni symud yn gyflym, oherwydd mae yna lawer o swyddogaethau statudol na all neb heblaw’r archwilydd cyffredinol eu cyflawni. Mae angen penodi archwilydd parhaol cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl, ac mae’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus wrthi eisoes yn ystyried trefniadau ar gyfer dechrau’r broses. Fodd bynnag, mae’n sicr y bydd y broses o ddod o hyd i ymgeisydd cymwys yn cymryd misoedd lawer. Rhaid inni hefyd ystyried yr amser ychwanegol a allai gymryd i ymgeisydd llwyddiannus ddechrau yn y swydd. Felly, cynigiaf, gyda chytundeb unfryd y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, ein bod yn enwebu archwilydd cyffredinol i lenwi’r swydd dros dro yn y cyfamser. Bydd hynny’n golygu y bydd modd i swyddogaethau statudol y swydd gael eu cyflawni—er enghraifft, llofnodi cyfrifon cyrff cyhoeddus, y bydd yn rhaid eu cyflwyno gerbron y Cynulliad—tra bydd y broses ddewis gyflawn a thrylwyr yn mynd rhagddi.

Given the circumstances and the need to make an early interim appointment, it is not possible to follow the kind of selection procedures that would normally apply. I have, however, taken soundings from a wide variety of sources, including the senior management team at the Wales Audit Office, and the chair of the audit and risk-management committee of the office. I have also consulted members of the Public Accounts Committee and, as required by the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Welsh Local Government Association, through its chief executive. I am pleased to say that there was universal support for inviting the most

O ystyried yr amgylchiadau a’r angen i benodi archwilydd dros dro yn fuan, nid yw’n bosibl dilyn y math o weithdrefnau dewis a fyddai’n berthnasol fel rheol. Fodd bynnag, yr wyf wedi cael cyngor gan amrywiaeth eang o ffynonellau, gan gynnwys yr uwch-dîm rheoli yn Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, a chadeirydd pwyllgor archwilio a rheoli risg y swyddfa. Yr wyf hefyd wedi ymgynghori ag aelodau’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus ac, fel sy’n ofynnol dan Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, Cymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, drwy ei phrif weithredwr. Mae’n bleser gennyf ddweud bod pawb o blaid gwahodd yr aelod uchaf o

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senior member of the current staff of the Wales Audit Office, Gillian Body, to undertake the role. She has agreed to be nominated auditor general on an interim basis. For legal reasons, the appointment has to be for a definite term, and the motion, if agreed, would mean that she would be formally appointed for a term expiring at the end of this calendar year. That should be more than long enough to enable a permanent candidate to be selected, appointed and to take up office. Gillian has therefore agreed that, should a permanent appointee be able to take up the appointment before that date, she will, at that stage, stand down. I express my gratitude to her for her willingness, in the public interest, to take on this role on the basis that I have described.

staff presennol Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, sef Gillian Body, i ymgymryd â’r rôl. Mae wedi cytuno i gael ei henwebu’n archwilydd cyffredinol dros dro. Am resymau cyfreithiol, rhaid ei phenodi am dymor penodol, a phe bai’r cynnig yn cael ei dderbyn, byddai’n golygu y byddai’n cael ei phenodi’n ffurfiol am dymor a ddaw i ben ddiwedd y flwyddyn galendr hon. Dylai hynny roi hen ddigon o amser i ddewis a phenodi ymgeisydd parhaol a’i alluogi i ddechrau yn y swydd. Felly, mae Gillian wedi cytuno y bydd yn gadael y swydd os bydd unigolyn a benodir i’r swydd yn barhaol yn gallu dechrau cyn y dyddiad hwnnw. Hoffwn fynegi fy niolch iddi am ei pharodrwydd, er lles y cyhoedd, i ymgymryd â’r rôl hon ar y sail a ddisgrifiais.

3.00 p.m.

Finally, I would like to take the opportunity to commend the commitment and professionalism of the staff of the Wales Audit Office during this difficult time. Although I will not be visiting the office until later this week, I am all too aware that recent events have had a considerable impact on them. By passing this resolution this afternoon, we can begin to provide them and the work of the Wales Audit Office with a measure of stability. I therefore ask you to support this motion tabled in my name.

Yn olaf, hoffwn achub ar y cyfle i gymeradwyo ymrwymiad a phroffesiynoldeb staff Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yn ystod y cyfnod anodd hwn. Er na fyddaf yn ymweld â’r swyddfa tan yn ddiweddarach yr wythnos hon, gwn yn iawn bod digwyddiadau’n ddiweddar wedi cael cryn effaith arnynt. Drwy basio’r cynnig hwn y prynhawn yma, gallwn ddechrau rhoi rhywfaint o sefydlogrwydd iddynt hwy a gwaith Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru. Felly, gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig hwn a gyflwynwyd yn fy enw.

Y Llywydd: Y cwestiwn yw bod y cynnig yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn. Mae ethol archwiliwr cyffredinol felly wedi’i gyflawni a byddaf yn hysbysu Ei Mawrhydi Y Frenhines ar unwaith yn y ffordd arferol.

The Presiding Officer: The question is that the motion be agreed. Is there any objection? I see there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed. The election of auditor general is completed and I will inform Her Majesty The Queen immediately in the usual manner.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Ethol Aelod i’r Pwyllgor Craffu ar Waith y Prif WeinidogElection of a Member to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister

The Minister for Business and Budget (Jane Hutt): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Fusnes a’r Gyllideb (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order No. 10.3,

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 10.3, yn ethol Sandy

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elects Sandy Mewies (Labour) as a member of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister in place of Janice Gregory (Labour). (NDM4399)

Mewies (Llafur) yn aelod o’r Pwyllgor Craffu ar Waith y Prif Weinidog yn lle Janice Gregory (Llafur). (NDM4399)

Y Llywydd: Y cwestiwn yw bod y cynnig yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: The question is that the motion be agreed. Is there any objection? I see there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Penodi Archwilwyr ar gyfer Cyfrifon Archwilydd Cenedlaethol CymruAppointment of Auditors of the Accounts of the Auditor General for Wales

Jonathan Morgan: I move that Jonathan Morgan: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with section 14(1) of Schedule 8 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, appoints KTS Owens Thomas as the auditors of the accounts of the Auditor General for Wales. (NDM4402)

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol ag adran 14(1) o Atodlen 8 i Ddeddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, yn penodi KTS Owens Thomas yn archwilwyr cyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. (NDM4402)

In moving the motion before you, I wish to recommend, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, that KTS Owens Thomas Ltd be appointed as auditor of the accounts of the Auditor General for Wales for the next six years, following a competitive tendering process. The Assembly is required, under paragraph 14 of Schedule 8 to the Government of Wales Act 2006, to appoint an auditor of the accounts of the Auditor General for Wales. The Standing Orders placed the responsibility of advising the Assembly in the exercise of this function on the Public Accounts Committee.

Wrth gyflwyno’r cynnig ger eich bron, hoffwn argymell, ar ran y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, penodi KTS Owens Thomas Ltd yn archwilydd i gyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru am y chwe blynedd nesaf, yn dilyn proses dendro gystadleuol. Mae’n ofynnol i’r Cynulliad, dan baragraff 14 Atodlen 8 Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru 2006, benodi archwilydd i gyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru. Yr oedd y Rheolau Sefydlog yn gosod y cyfrifoldeb am gynghori’r Cynulliad ar gyflawni’r swyddogaeth hon ar y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus.

KTS Owens Thomas Ltd were our appointed auditors under the previous contract, therefore they have the experience of auditing the accounts. However, importantly, I, in consultation with the Public Accounts Committee, amended the contract to enable the committee to commission a value-for-money study of the Wales Audit Office, in line with the recommendation of the international peer review of the Wales Audit Office. I emphasise that the recommendation for the appointment of an auditor of the accounts of the Auditor General for Wales is

KTS Owens Thomas Ltd oedd ein cyfrifwyr penodedig dan y contract blaenorol, felly, mae ganddynt brofiad o archwilio’r cyfrifon. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig nodi i mi, drwy ymgynghori â’r Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus, ddiwygio’r contract er mwyn galluogi’r pwyllgor i gomisiynu astudiaeth gwerth yr arian o Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru, yn unol ag argymhelliad yr adolygiad o Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru gan gymheiriaid rhyngwladol. Pwysleisiaf nad yw’r argymhelliad i benodi archwilydd i gyfrifon Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru yn

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not connected to recent events. It is a coincidence that I must discharge this responsibility today, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee. I ask you to support the motion tabled in my name.

gysylltiedig â digwyddiadau’n ddiweddar. Cyd-ddigwyddiad yw ei bod yn rhaid imi gyflawni’r cyfrifoldeb hwn heddiw, ar ran y Pwyllgor Cyfrifon Cyhoeddus. Felly, gofynnaf ichi gefnogi’r cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn fy enw.

Y Llywydd: Y cwestiwn yw bod y cynnig yn cael ei dderbyn. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: The question is that the motion be agreed. Is there any objection? I see there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Atal Rheolau SefydlogSuspension of Standing Orders

The Minister for Business and Budget (Jane Hutt): I move that

Y Gweinidog dros Fusnes a’r Gyllideb (Jane Hutt): Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Orders Nos. 35.6 and 35.8:

Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog Rhifau 35.6 a 35.8:

suspends the part of Standing Order No. 22.31 which requires a draft Order to be laid in a sitting week, to allow draft Orders to be introduced on 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 February 2010. (NDM4411)

yn atal y rhan o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.31 sy’n ei gwneud yn ofynnol i Orchymyn drafft gael ei osod yn ystod wythnos eistedd, er mwyn caniatáu i Orchmynion drafft gael eu cyflwyno ar 15 ,16, 17, 18 ac 19 Chwefror 2010. (NDM4411)

I am grateful, Presiding Officer, for allowing me to bring forward this motion, which seeks Assembly agreement to suspend the part of Standing Order No. 22.31 to allow the Welsh Assembly Government to table two legislative competence Orders during next week’s recess. They and the Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Culture and other fields) Order 2009 and the National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Education) Order 2010.

Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar, Lywydd, am gael caniatâd i gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn, sy’n gofyn am gydsyniad y Cynulliad i atal y rhan berthnasol o Reol Sefydlog Rhif 22.31 er mwyn caniatáu i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad gyflwyno dau Orchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn ystod toriad yr wythnos nesaf. Sef, Gorchymyn Arfaethedig Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Cymhwysedd Deddfwriaethol) (Diwylliant a meysydd eraill) 2009 a Gorchymyn Arfaethedig Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru (Cymhwysedd Deddfwriaethol) (Addysg) 2010.

Alun Cairns: The Welsh Conservative Party will be supporting the suspension of Standing Orders on the Minister’s proposed basis. However, I wish to express concern that such late notice was given for the suspension of Standing Orders, without any mention of it at

Alun Cairns: Bydd Plaid Geidwadol Cymru yn cefnogi’r cais i atal y Rheolau Sefydlog ar sail cynnig y Gweinidog. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn fynegi pryder bod cyn lleied o rybudd wedi’i roi ar gyfer y cais i atal Rheolau Sefydlog, heb ddim sôn amdano ynghynt.

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an earlier opportunity. I would like to express further concern that, even without all-party agreement, the motion was laid to suspend Standing Orders, and that, until now, the suspension of Standing Orders has always been achieved by consensus of all parties, rather than by the two-thirds requirement that could also deliver a suspension of Standing Orders. I am grateful for the way in which the Minister has co-operated, at the latter stages, with all parties.

Hoffwn fynegi pryder pellach bod y cynnig i atal Rheolau Sefydlog wedi’i gyflwyno, hyd yn oed heb gytundeb hollbleidiol. Tan yn awr, mae’r broses o atal Rheolau Sefydlog bob amser wedi digwydd trwy gydsyniad pob plaid, yn hytrach na thrwy ofyniad dwy ran o dair a allai hefyd arwain at atal Rheolau Sefydlog. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am y modd y mae’r Gweinidog wedi cydweithio â phob plaid, yn ystod y camau diweddaraf.

The Presiding Officer: I am grateful to the Minister for Business and Budget and to the shadow business minister for the Conservatives and colleague on the Business Committee for the way that he has raised this issue. I will certainly ensure that we will discuss these processes, not next Tuesday—how can I live without a Business Committee next week?—but the following Tuesday, so that we can consider our processes. I believe that the position was that this question arose outside of committee, and we need to ensure that our ways of having a virtual Business Committee function robustly. I give Alun Cairns a guarantee, and I know that the business Minister will know that we need to do that.

Y Llywydd: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog dros Fusnes a’r Gyllideb ac i weinidog busnes yr wrthblaid dros y Ceidwadwyr, sy’n gydweithiwr ar y Pwyllgor Busnes, am y modd y mae wedi codi’r mater hwn. Byddaf yn sicrhau y byddwn yn trafod y prosesau hyn, nid ddydd Mawrth nesaf—sut mae byw heb Bwyllgor Busnes yr wythnos nesaf?—ond y dydd Mawrth canlynol, fel y gallwn ystyried ein prosesau. Credaf mai’r sefyllfa oedd fod y cwestiwn hwn wedi codi y tu allan i’r pwyllgor, ac mae angen inni sicrhau bod ein dulliau o gael Pwyllgor Busnes rhithiol yn gweithio’n gadarn. Rhof sicrwydd i Alun Cairns, a gwn y bydd y Gweinidog dros fusnes yn gwybod bod angen inni wneud hynny.

Jane Hutt: I would just like to say that I feel that the people of Wales, and this Assembly, will want to ensure that this Government progresses its legislation, which means that, in making this decision, I recognised that this is something that we will look at with regard to due process. However, it shows that we mean business and that we are going to get on with making legislation.

Jane Hutt: Hoffwn ddweud fy mod yn teimlo y bydd pobl Cymru, a’r Cynulliad hwn, am sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth hon yn symud ei deddfwriaeth yn ei blaen, sy’n golygu fy mod, wrth wneud y penderfyniad hwn, wedi cydnabod bod hwn yn rhywbeth y byddwn yn ei ystyried o ran prosesau priodol. Fodd bynnag, mae’n dangos ein bod o ddifrif a’n bod yn mynd i fwrw ymlaen i greu deddfwriaeth.

The Presiding Officer: I hear the Minister. This is where Presiding Officers have a difficult duty in getting the balance right. We must ensure that the Government is able to take its business through, but that can happen only through proper scrutiny. These are paradoxes that are not often resolved satisfactorily. However, we keep trying.

Y Llywydd: Clywaf y Gweinidog. Dyma ble mae’n dasg anodd i Lywyddion sicrhau cydbwysedd. Rhaid inni sicrhau bod y Llywodraeth yn gallu cyflawni ei busnes, ond dim ond drwy graffu gofalus y gall hynny ddigwydd. Mae’r rhain yn baradocsau nad ydynt yn cael eu datrys yn foddhaol yn aml. Fodd bynnag, daliwn i ymdrechu.

Y Llywydd: Y cwestiwn yw a ddylid derbyn y cynnig. A oes gwrthwynebiad? Gwelaf nad oes. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, felly, caiff y cynnig ei dderbyn.

The Presiding Officer: The question is should the motion be agreed. Is there any objection? I see there is not. In accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is therefore agreed.

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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol ar ei Ymchwiliad i’r Defnydd o Welyau Haul yng Nghymru a’u Rheoleiddio

The Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s Report on its Inquiry into the Use and Regulation of Sunbeds in Wales

Darren Millar: I move that Darren Millar: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

notes the report of the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee, ‘Inquiry into the Use and Regulation of Sunbeds’, which was laid in the Table Office on 11 November 2009. (NDM4398)

yn nodi adroddiad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol, ‘Ymchwiliad i'r Defnydd o Welyau Haul a’u Rheoleiddio’, a osodwyd yn y Swyddfa Gyflwyno ar 11 Tachwedd 2009. (NDM4398)

I am very pleased to be able to open the debate today on the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s inquiry into the use and regulation of sunbeds. I am sure that Members will be aware of the extensive coverage this issue has had in the media recently. In particular, they will be aware of the high-profile cases where children have been severely burned through the unregulated and unsupervised use of tanning salons. Many will remember the case of Kirsty McRae, a 14-year-old who suffered first degree burns to 70 per cent of her body after spending 19 minutes on a sunbed in an unstaffed salon. You will also be aware of Julie Morgan MP’s private Member’s Bill on this issue, which is progressing through the House of Commons.

Yr wyf yn falch iawn cael agor y ddadl heddiw ar ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol i’r defnydd o welyau haul a’u rheoleiddio. Yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd yr Aelodau’n ymwybodol o’r sylw helaeth y mae’r mater hwn wedi’i gael yn y cyfryngau’n ddiweddar. Byddant yn arbennig o ymwybodol o’r achosion amlwg lle mae plant wedi eu llosgi’n ddifrifol wrth ddefnyddio salonau lliw haul sydd heb eu rheoleiddio na’u goruchwylio. Bydd nifer o’r Aelodau’n cofio achos Kirsty McRae, merch 14 oed a gafodd losgiadau gradd gyntaf ar 70 y cant o’i chorff ar ôl treulio 19 munud ar wely haul mewn salon heb ei staffio. Byddwch hefyd yn ymwybodol o Fesur Aelod Preifat Julie Morgan AS ar y mater hwn, sy’n mynd trwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin.

Although we may enjoy being in the sun, the truth is that too much sun can be bad for us: overexposure damages our skin, ages us prematurely and, in the worst cases, causes serious or fatal skin diseases. Young skin in particular is vulnerable, which is worrying because young people are particularly susceptible to media images that often portray a tan as healthy and desirable. The truth is that thousands of people each year die from skin cancer and that the incidence of these diseases has quadrupled in the past three decades. If the sun can be bad for us, sunbeds can be much worse. They deliver concentrated levels of radiation in potentially lethal bursts. The effects can be severe. Just

Er ein bod efallai’n mwynhau bod yn yr haul, y gwir amdani yw bod gormod o haul yn gallu bod yn ddrwg inni: mae dod i gysylltiad yn ormodol â’i belydriad yn niweidio ein croen, yn ein heneiddio cyn pryd, ac yn yr achosion gwaethaf yn achosi clefydau croen difrifol neu angheuol. Mae croen ifanc yn arbennig o agored i niwed, sy’n peri pryder gan fod pobl ifanc yn arbennig o agored i ddylanwad gan ddelweddau yn y cyfryngau sy’n aml yn portreadu lliw haul fel rhywbeth iach a dymunol. Y gwir yw bod miloedd o bobl bob blwyddyn yn marw o ganser y croen, ac mae nifer yr achosion o’r clefydau hyn wedi cynyddu bedair gwaith yn ystod y tri degawd diwethaf. Os gall yr haul fod yn

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one relatively short exposure can lead to first degree burns and can potentially be fatal. The long-term health risks, particularly for children and young people, are unquantifiable but also often severe. Kirsty McRae’s mother, Jill, gave evidence to the committee and spoke movingly of her daughter’s situation. She said that Kirsty

ddrwg inni, gall gwelyau haul fod yn waeth fyth. Maent yn rhyddhau lefelau dwys o belydriad mewn cyfnodau byr a all fod yn angheuol. Gall yr effeithiau fod yn ddifrifol. Gall eu defnyddio unwaith am gyfnod digon byr achosi llosgiadau gradd gyntaf, a gall fod yn angheuol. Ni ellir mesur y risgiau tymor hir i iechyd, yn enwedig iechyd plant a phobl ifanc, ond maent yn aml yn ddifrifol. Rhoddodd Jill, mam Kirsty McRae, dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor a siaradodd o’r galon am sefyllfa ei merch. Dywedodd bod Kirsty

‘lives with the knowledge that she may have done irreparable damage to her skin that may not become evident for years.’

yn byw gan wybod y gallai fod wedi gwneud niwed i’w croen na ellir ei wella ac na fydd efallai’n dod yn amlwg am flynyddoedd.

We were also concerned to hear of recent evidence indicating a clear link between sunbed use and an increased risk of skin cancers. Given the risks, it is perhaps surprising that the sunbed industry is almost wholly unregulated. At the heart of the committee’s report are three conclusions: first, that there is good evidence to suggest that the use of sunbeds causes skin cancer; secondly, that although there is no wholly safe dosage, children and young people are particularly at risk; and thirdly, that the current regulatory framework provides insufficient safeguards against misuse, particularly by children and younger people. These conclusions convinced us that now is the time for decisive action to protect the public and regulate the sunbed industry.

Yr oeddem hefyd yn pryderu clywed am dystiolaeth yn ddiweddar yn dangos bod cysylltiad clir rhwng defnyddio gwelyau haul a risg gynyddol o ganser y croen. O ystyried y risgiau, mae’n syndod efallai nad yw’r diwydiant gwelyau haul yn cael ei reoleiddio bron o gwbl. Mae tri chasgliad wrth wraidd adroddiad y pwyllgor: yn gyntaf, bod yna dystiolaeth dda i awgrymu bod defnyddio gwelyau haul yn achosi canser y croen; yn ail, er nad oes unrhyw gyfnod ar wely haul yn gyfan gwbl ddiogel, mae mwy o berygl i blant a phobl ifanc yn enwedig; ac yn drydydd, nid yw’r fframwaith rheoleiddio presennol yn rhoi digon o amddiffyniad rhag camddefnyddio gwelyau haul, yn enwedig gan blant a phobl ifanc. Yr oedd y casgliadau hyn wedi’n hargyhoeddi mai dyma’r amser i gymryd camau pendant i amddiffyn y cyhoedd a rheoleiddio’r diwydiant gwelyau haul.

Our central recommendation was that the Welsh Assembly Government should seek, as a matter of priority, the legislative competence to introduce new laws to enable local authorities to license, regulate and, if necessary, impose liabilities and create offences in relation to sunbed facilities and their operators. The committee’s report sets out a range of other recommendations, and I am very pleased that the Minister has accepted them all, either wholly, in part, or in principle.

Ein hargymhelliad canolog oedd y dylai Llywodraeth y Cynulliad roi blaenoriaeth i geisio’r cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol i gyflwyno deddfau newydd er mwyn galluogi awdurdodau lleol i reoleiddio a thrwyddedu cyfleusterau gwelyau haul a’u gweithredwyr, a lle bo angen i orfodi rhwymedigaethau a chreu troseddau mewn cysylltiad â hwy. Mae adroddiad y pwyllgor yn gosod allan ystod o argymhellion eraill, ac yr wyf yn falch iawn fod y Gweinidog wedi derbyn pob un ohonynt, naill ai’n gyfan gwbl ynteu’n neu’n rhannol ynteu mewn egwyddor.

A significant number of people—as many as 3 million in the United Kingdom—use

Mae nifer sylweddol o bobl—cynifer â 3 miliwn yn y Deyrnas Unedig—yn defnyddio

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commercial tanning outlets on a regular basis. Young people under 16, including children as young as eight, are using sunbeds. A study carried out by Cancer Research UK for the Welsh Government found that almost one in 10 children in Wales aged 11 to 17 had used a sunbed at least once. Use is markedly higher among girls; more than one in five girls aged 15 to 17 in Wales reported using tanning salons. A study of 14 to 15-year-old pupils in Neath and Swansea found even higher rates of usage: 32.1 per cent of girls and 9.6 per cent of boys had used sunbeds. We must remember that the majority of these children and young people are using unsupervised or coin-operated salons.

canolfannau lliw haul masnachol yn rheolaidd. Mae pobl ifanc dan 16, gan gynnwys plant mor ifanc ag wyth oed, yn defnyddio gwelyau haul. Dangosodd astudiaeth gan Cancer Research UK ar ran Llywodraeth Cymru fod bron un o bob 10 o blant yng Nghymru rhwng 11 a 17 oed wedi defnyddio gwely haul o leiaf unwaith. Mae’r defnydd lawer yn uwch ymhlith merched; dywedodd dros un o bob pum merch rhwng 15 a 17 oed yng Nghymru eu bod yn defnyddio salonau lliw haul. Mewn astudiaeth o ddisgyblion 14 a 15 oed yng Nghastell-nedd ac Abertawe, yr oedd y cyfraddau’n uwch fyth: yr oedd 32.1 y cant o ferched a 9.6 o fechgyn wedi defnyddio gwelyau haul. Rhaid inni gofio bod mwyafrif y plant a’r bobl ifanc hyn yn defnyddio salonau hunanwasanaeth nad ydynt yn cael eu goruchwylio.

3.10 p.m.

The committee was told that there are 419 tanning outlets in Wales, 46 of which—or 11 per cent—are unstaffed and coin-operated salons. This is much higher, as a percentage, than elsewhere in the United Kingdom where unstaffed tanning salons represent a much lower percentage—just 2 per cent—of the total number of tanning facilities. The committee was therefore concerned to hear of this disparity.

Dywedwyd wrth y pwyllgor bod yna 419 o ganolfannau lliw haul yng Nghymru, a bod 46 ohonynt—neu 11 y cant—yn salonau hunanwasanaeth sydd heb eu staffio. Mae’r ganran hon lawer yn uwch nag yn unman arall yn y Deyrnas Unedig, lle mae salonau lliw haul heb eu staffio yn ganran lawer is—2 y cant yn unig o gyfanswm nifer y cyfleusterau lliw haul. Felly, yr oedd y pwyllgor yn pryderu clywed am y gwahaniaeth hwn.

We also heard claims of health benefits for sunbed use, including the reduction of blood pressure, as a source of vitamin D, to alleviate skin disorders, and to contribute to preventing some medical conditions. However, the overwhelming evidence from medical professionals was that the health benefits of tanning are unproven and marginal at best. We were told that in taking into account the risks, any claims of benefits should be viewed with considerable suspicion and scepticism. The fact is that there is good evidence to suggest that the use of sunbeds can cause skin cancer.

Clywsom hefyd honiadau am fanteision iechyd defnyddio gwelyau haul, gan gynnwys lleihau pwysedd gwaed, bod yn ffynhonnell fitamin D, lleddfu afiechydon y croen, a chyfrannu at atal rhai cyflyrau meddygol. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan y gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd yn dweud yn bendant iawn nad yw’r manteision i iechyd o gael lliw haul wedi’u profi, a’u bod yn ymylol ar y gorau. Dywedwyd wrthym y dylem ystyried, wrth bwyso a mesur y risgiau, unrhyw honiadau am fanteision lliw haul gyda llawer iawn o ddrwgdybiaeth ac amheuaeth. Y ffaith yw fod digon o dystiolaeth i ddangos bod defnyddio gwelyau haul yn gallu achosi canser y croen.

Last year, the International Agency for Research on Cancer raised the classification

Y llynedd, cododd yr Asiantaeth Ryngwladol er Ymchwil Canser ddosbarthiad gwelyau

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of sunbeds from ‘probably carcinogenic to humans’ to ‘carcinogenic to humans’. This is the highest risk category and places sunbeds in the same class of cancer-causing factors as exposure to asbestos, benzene, tobacco and radium. Research by the International Agency for Research on Cancer found that excessive exposure in the first two decades of life increases the risk of melanoma developing in later life. Startlingly, the risk of cutaneous melanoma has increased by 75 per cent when the use of tanning devices starts before 30 years of age.

haul o rywbeth sy’n ‘debygol o fod yn garsinogenig i bobl’ i rywbeth sydd ‘yn garsinogenig i bobl’. Dyma’r categori risg uchaf, ac mae’n gosod gwelyau haul yn yr un dosbarth o ffactorau sy’n achosi canser â dod i gysylltiad ag asbestos, bensen, tybaco a radiwm. Darganfu gwaith ymchwil gan yr Asiantaeth Ryngwladol er Ymchwil Canser bod dod i gysylltiad gormodol â phelydriad haul ormod yn ystod dau ddegawd cyntaf eich bywyd yn cynyddu’r risg y gallai melanoma ddatblygu’n ddiweddarach mewn bywyd. Yr hyn sy’n frawychus yw bod risg melanoma ar y croen yn cynyddu 75 y cant pan fydd pobl yn dechrau defnyddio dyfeisiau lliw haul cyn cyrraedd 30 oed.

The committee was concerned to note that the vast majority of children who use sunbeds are still using them despite being aware of the health risks. It was with this in mind that the committee recommended that the funding provided for the SunSmart campaign, particularly in relation to young people, should be increased significantly. The current regulatory framework provides insufficient safeguards against the misuse of sunbeds, particularly by children and young people. Self-regulation within the industry, while welcome, is not sufficient.

Yr oedd y pwyllgor yn pryderu bod mwyafrif helaeth y plant sy’n defnyddio gwelyau haul yn dal i’w defnyddio er eu bod yn ymwybodol o’r risgiau iechyd. Dyna pam yr argymhellodd y pwyllgor y dylai’r arian a ddarperir ar gyfer yr ymgyrch Herio’r Haul, yn enwedig o safbwynt pobl ifanc, gynyddu’n sylweddol. Nid yw’r fframwaith rheoleiddio presennol yn cynnig digon o amddiffyniad yn erbyn camddefnyddio gwelyau haul, yn enwedig gan blant a phobl ifanc. Er bod gwaith hunanreoleiddio yn y diwydiant i’w groesawu, nid yw’n ddigon.

The Health and Safety Executive and the European Commission issue guidelines on the use of sunbeds. These guidelines make a number of recommendations about the safe use of sunbeds, including advice that children under 18 years old should not use them. However, this guidance is only advisory.

Mae’r Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch a’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd yn cyhoeddi canllawiau ar ddefnyddio gwelyau haul. Mae’r canllawiau hyn yn cynnwys nifer o argymhellion sut i ddefnyddio gwelyau haul yn ddiogel, gan gynnwys cyngor na ddylai plant dan 18 oed eu defnyddio. Fodd bynnag, cynnig cyngor yn unig y mae’r arweiniad hwn.

Legislation exists in Scotland that makes it an offence for a sunbed operator to allow a sunbed to be used on an unsupervised basis or by anyone under the age of 18. In areas of England, local Acts provide for the licensing of special treatments establishments, which include tanning salons. However, no such legislation is currently in place in Wales.

Mae deddfwriaeth yn yr Alban sy’n ei gwneud yn drosedd i weithredwr gwelyau haul adael i rywun ddefnyddio gwely haul heb oruchwyliaeth, neu gan unrhyw un dan 18 oed. Mewn rhai ardaloedd yn Lloegr mae Deddfau lleol yn mynnu ei bod yn rhaid trwyddedu sefydliadau sy’n cynnig triniaethau arbennig, gan gynnwys salonau lliw haul. Fodd bynnag, nid oes deddfwriaeth o’r fath yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd.

What about self-regulation within the industry? The Sunbed Association operates a code of practice for its members, which

Beth am hunanreoleiddio yn y diwydiant? Mae’r Gymdeithas Gwelyau Haul yn gweithredu cod ymarfer ar gyfer ei haelodau,

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includes requirements relating to the supervision of customers, maximum exposure times, screening of customers for age, and a number of other factors. However, the Sunbed Association currently represents only 20 per cent of sunbed facilities, and in the absence of any regulatory framework the sunbed industry is predominately unregulated. This evidence led the committee to ask whether the risk of overexposure to sunbeds such that there is a need for the law to regulate the use that people make of them. The unequivocal answer that the committee reached was ‘yes’.

sy’n cynnwys gofynion yn ymwneud â goruchwylio cwsmeriaid, cyfyngu’r amser y gellir ei dreulio ar wely haul, sgrinio cwsmeriaid o ran eu hoed, a llawer ffactor arall. Fodd bynnag, 20 y cant yn unig o gyfleusterau gwelyau haul sy’n cael eu cynrychioli gan y Gymdeithas Gwelyau Haul ar hyn o bryd, a chan nad oes fframwaith rheoleiddio, mae’r diwydiant gwelyau haul heb ei reoleiddio i raddau helaeth iawn. Parodd y dystiolaeth hon i’r pwyllgor ofyn a yw’r risg o orddefnyddio gwelyau haul gymaint fel bod angen i’r gyfraith reoleiddio’r modd y mae pobl yn eu defnyddio. Yr ateb digamsyniol gan y pwyllgor oedd ‘ydy’.

Given the evidence that the committee received on the use of sunbeds by children under 18, the evidence that suggests that sunbed use causes cancer, and the large proportion of unsupervised or coin-operated salons in Wales, the committee could come to only one conclusion: that it is time for laws to be introduced to regulate this industry. These laws should prevent the use of sunbeds by those under 18; should ban coin-operated or unsupervised salons; and should ensure that all premises providing sunbed use should be subject to full-time supervision on site by trained and qualified staff. In addition, information on potential health risks should be provided to all users and displayed prominently in all salons. In short, we concluded that the only safe way to tan is from a bottle.

O gofio’r dystiolaeth a gafodd y pwyllgor am blant dan 18 yn defnyddio gwelyau haul, y dystiolaeth sy’n awgrymu bod defnyddio gwelyau haul yn achosi canser, a’r gyfran fawr o salonau hunanwasanaeth heb eu goruchwylio sydd yng Nghymru, dyma’r unig gasgliad a oedd yn bosibl i’r pwyllgor: sef ei bod yn bryd cyflwyno deddfau i reoleiddio’r diwydiant hwn. Dylai’r deddfau hyn atal plant dan 18 rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul; dylent wahardd salonau hunanwasanaeth heb eu goruchwylio; a dylent sicrhau bod pob safle lle gellir defnyddio gwely haul wedi’i oruchwylio bob amser gan staff cymwys wedi’u hyfforddi sy’n gweithio ar y safle. Yn ogystal, dylid darparu gwybodaeth am risgiau iechyd posibl i bob defnyddiwr, a dylai’r wybodaeth hon gael ei harddangos mewn man amlwg ym mhob salon. Yn fyr, daethom i’r casgliad mai’r unig ffordd ddiogel o gael lliw haul yw allan o botel.

I am pleased that the Minister shares this view, and that she is exploring all of the options open to her for legislation in this area. I am also pleased that legislation that will give effect to many of the committee’s recommendations is progressing in another place. As I mentioned earlier, the Minister has accepted, either wholly, in principle or in part, all of the committee’s recommendations. I welcome the positive approach taken on this issue by Assembly Members, the Minister and politicians elsewhere, and I welcome the Minister’s response to our report and I look forward to her contribution today. Finally, I would like

Yr wyf yn falch bod y Gweinidog o’r un farn â’r pwyllgor, a’i bod yn archwilio’r holl ddewisiadau posibl sydd ar gael iddi o ran deddfu yn y maes hwn. Yr wyf hefyd yn falch fod deddfwriaeth, a fydd yn gweithredu nifer o argymhellion y pwyllgor, yn mynd rhagddi mewn man arall. Fel y soniais yn gynharach, mae’r Gweinidog wedi derbyn holl argymhellion y pwyllgor naill ai’n gyfan gwbl ynteu mewn egwyddor ynteu’n rhannol. Yr wyf yn croesawu agwedd gadarnhaol Aelodau’r Cynulliad, y Gweinidog a gwleidyddion mewn mannau eraill ar y mater hwn, ac yr wyf yn croesawu ymateb y Gweinidog i’n hadroddiad. Edrychaf ymlaen

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to thank those who gave evidence to the committee, the committee members and the staff who helped to produce our report.

at glywed ei chyfraniad heddiw. Yn olaf, hoffwn ddiolch i’r rhai a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor, aelodau’r pwyllgor a’r staff sydd wedi helpu i gynhyrchu ein hadroddiad.

Val Lloyd: The committee’s inquiry fed into the context of a growing public health issue. Organisations such as Cancer Research UK and the British Medical Association have been running awareness-raising campaigns about the health risks associated with sunbeds. The BMA’s campaign successfully resulted in three local authorities—the Vale of Glamorgan, Wrexham and Flintshire—removing sunbeds from their premises. These local authorities previously drew around £15,000 profit each year from the operations concerned.

Val Lloyd: Cynhaliwyd ymchwiliad y pwyllgor yng nghyd-destun mater iechyd y cyhoedd sy’n dod yn fwyfwy amlwg. Mae sefydliadau megis Cancer Research UK a Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain wedi bod yn cynnal ymgyrchoedd i gynyddu ymwybyddiaeth o’r risgiau iechyd sy’n gysylltiedig â gwelyau haul. O ganlyniad i ymgyrch Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, penderfynodd tri awdurdod lleol—Bro Morgannwg, Wrecsam a Sir y Fflint—gael gwared ar welyau haul o’u safleoedd. Cyn hynny, byddai’r awdurdodau lleol hyn yn gwneud elw o ryw £15,000 y flwyddyn o’r gweithrediadau dan sylw.

The committee’s inquiry has shown that there is an urgent need to educate young people and change attitudes towards sunbeds in Wales. I was astonished by evidence given to the committee by Professor Dafydd Roberts, which showed that using a sunbed was quite often part of a family weekend experience for young people. This shows that education should be targeted not only at young people, but at older generations.

Mae ymchwiliad y pwyllgor wedi dangos bod taer angen addysgu pobl ifanc a newid agweddau at welyau haul yng Nghymru. Cefais fy syfrdanu gan y dystiolaeth a roddwyd i’r pwyllgor gan yr Athro Dafydd Roberts, yn dangos bod defnyddio gwely haul, yn aml iawn, yn rhan o’r gweithgareddau teuluol y byddai rhai pobl ifanc yn eu gwneud ar benwythnos. Mae hynny’n dangos y dylid targedu addysg at genedlaethau hŷn, yn ogystal â phobl ifanc.

I was also surprised to find out that young people who use sunbeds are often aware of the risks, although the same may be said of smokers. We need to impress upon young people that skin cancer is a serious disease that can result in death. I recently viewed a DVD provided by the BMA called ‘A Tan to Die For’. Listening to young girls talking about the need to be tanned in order to feel and look better made me realise how little they know about the damage that they are doing to their skin. I wondered if some work could be done with schools, and elsewhere, to try to tackle the peer-pressure problem.

Yr oeddwn hefyd yn synnu darganfod bod pobl ifanc sy’n defnyddio gwelyau haul yn aml yn ymwybodol o’r risgiau, er y gellir dweud yr un peth am ysmygwyr. Mae angen inni bwyso ar bobl ifanc fod canser y croen yn glefyd difrifol sy’n gallu lladd. Gwyliais DVD yn ddiweddar wedi ei ddarparu gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain o’r enw ‘A Tan to Die For’. Sylweddolais, ar ôl gwrando ar ferched ifanc yn sôn am yr angen i gael lliw haul er mwyn teimlo ac edrych yn well, cyn lleied y maent yn ei wybod am y niwed maent yn ei wneud i’w croen. Yr oeddwn yn meddwl tybed a ellid gwneud rhywfaint o waith gydag ysgolion, ac mewn mannau eraill, i geisio mynd i’r afael â phroblem pwysau gan gyfoedion.

I, like the Chair of the committee, I welcome the Minister’s positive response to our report, and I am pleased that she has accepted most recommendations in full. I would, however,

Yr wyf fi, fel Cadeirydd y pwyllgor, yn croesawu ymateb cadarnhaol y Gweinidog i’n hadroddiad, ac yr wyf yn falch ei bod wedi derbyn y rhan fwyaf o’r argymhellion

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like to press the Minister further, if I may, on recommendation 2, which states that the Welsh Government should seek as a matter of priority the legislative competence to introduce new laws to license, regulate and, if necessary, impose liabilities and create offences in relation to sunbed facilities and their operators.

yn llawn. Fodd bynnag, hoffwn bwyso eto ar y Gweinidog, os caf, ynghylch argymhelliad 2 sy’n dweud y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru roi blaenoriaeth i geisio’r cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol i gyflwyno deddfau newydd i reoleiddio a thrwyddedu cyfleusterau gwelyau haul a’u gweithredwyr, a lle bydd angen i orfodi rhwymedigaethau a chreu troseddau mewn cysylltiad â hwy.

I am aware that the Minister is of the view that the restriction on sunbed use might reasonably be achieved through controls other than licensing and registration. However, the current system of regulation is unacceptable given the proven health risks of sunbed use. Registration is vital for the purpose of monitoring because, for example, many local authorities do not know how many salons currently operate in their areas, and many, therefore, fall outside the usual health and safety inspection procedure. Without registration, this loophole would remain. I accept the financial implication of a full licensing system, but, after discussions with the BMA, I believe that it would favour a softer version that would, nevertheless, ensure proper controls.

Gwn fod y Gweinidog o’r farn y gellid llwyddo i gyfyngu defnyddio gwelyau haul yn rhesymol trwy ddulliau rheoleiddio ar wahân i drwyddedu a chofrestru. Fodd bynnag, mae’r system reoleiddio bresennol yn annerbyniol, o gofio’r risgiau iechyd sydd wedi eu profi ac sy’n gysylltiedig â defnyddio gwelyau haul. Mae cofrestru’n hollbwysig er mwyn monitro, oherwydd, er enghraifft, nid yw llawer o awdurdodau lleol yn gwybod faint o salonau sy’n gweithredu yn eu hardal ar hyn o bryd, ac felly mae nifer nad ydynt yn rhan o’r weithdrefn arolygu iechyd a diogelwch arferol. Heb orfod cofrestru, byddai’r sefyllfa hon yn parhau. Yr wyf yn derbyn oblygiadau ariannol system drwyddedu lawn, ond ar ôl trafod gyda Chymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, credaf y byddai’n well gan y gymdeithas drefniant llai llym a fyddai, er hynny, yn sicrhau mesurau rheoli priodol.

This is clearly an area where further work needs to be done, and I hope that today’s report and its recommendations, together with the proposals being taken through Westminster by Julie Morgan MP, can put an end to a dangerous, damaging practice.

Mae’n amlwg bod hwn yn faes lle mae angen gwneud mwy o waith, a gobeithio y bydd yr adroddiad a gyflwynir heddiw a’i argymhellion, ynghyd â’r cynigion y mae Julie Morgan AS yn eu cyflwyno yn San Steffan, yn gallu dod ag arfer peryglus a niweidiol i ben.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I welcome the report produced by the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee. I thank the staff, the committee members and those who came to give evidence to the committee. The evidence given was often compelling and personal, particularly that of the mother of an individual who had suffered horrific burns through overexposure at an unsupervised tanning salon in Barry. It is, therefore, of critical importance that this issue is addressed.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r adroddiad a baratowyd gan y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol. Yr wyf yn diolch i’r staff, aelodau’r pwyllgor a’r rhai a ddaeth i roi tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor. Yr oedd y dystiolaeth a roddwyd yn aml yn rymus ac yn bersonol, yn enwedig y dystiolaeth gan fam unigolyn a oedd wedi cael llosgiadau erchyll trwy dreulio gormod o amser ar wely haul mewn salon heb ei oruchwylio yn y Barri. Felly, mae’n hanfodol bwysig i’r mater hwn gael sylw.

One thing that annoyed me was the length of time that it has taken us to get to this stage,

Un peth a’m cythruddodd oedd ei bod wedi cymryd cyhyd inni gyrraedd y cam hwn,

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because a lot of the evidence that we received has been in the public domain for a considerable time. I welcome the Bill that the Member of Parliament for Cardiff North has introduced in the House of Commons, and the positive approach that the Government here has taken. However, I cannot help but ask why it has taken so long to get to this stage. Val will concur that the Petitions Committee dealt with an issue relating to the regulation of body-piercing and tanning salons, and we found that we have little or no power in Wales to affect the regulatory framework under which these salons operate. When one looks at the volume of individuals who use these premises, it has been a deficiency in public life that we have not been able to create some sort of regulatory control.

oherwydd mae llawer o’r dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd inni yn wybodaeth gyhoeddus ers cryn amser. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r Mesur y mae Aelod Seneddol Gogledd Caerdydd wedi’i gyflwyno yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin, ac agwedd gadarnhaol y Llywodraeth yn y fan hon. Fodd bynnag, ni allaf ond gofyn pam mae wedi cymryd cyhyd i gyrraedd y man hwn. Bydd Val yn cytuno bod y Pwyllgor Deisebau wedi ymdrin â mater yn ymwneud â rheoleiddio salonau celf corff a lliw haul, a gwelsom mai ychydig iawn o rym sydd gennym yng Nghymru, os o gwbl, i ddylanwadu ar y fframwaith rheoleiddio ar gyfer y salonau hyn. O gofio faint o unigolion sy’n defnyddio’r safleoedd hyn, mae wedi bod yn un o ddiffygion bywyd cyhoeddus nad ydym wedi gallu creu rhyw fath o drefn reoleiddio.

3.20 p.m.

The one thing that came across time and again was that, whatever regulations come about, there will always be some in society who wish to use sunbeds, for whatever reason. It is a bit like the smoking argument in that whatever health messages we put out and whatever restrictions we impose, a sizeable minority of individuals will still choose to smoke. Therefore, while thinking of the regulatory aspect, it is incumbent upon us to ensure that enforcement is put in place. One piece of evidence was given on the different standards of sunbeds and tanning salons and the lack of compliance with various EU regulations that would give—I am not sure whether ‘safety’ is the right word in this context—some sort of protection from inferior apparatus. While I and my party fully support the regulatory road that is being pursued, it is important to recognise that there will be individuals, whatever evidence is presented, who will continue to use sunbeds. Therefore, we also need to make sure that regulations that impose the highest standards are implemented here in Wales.

Un peth a ddaeth i’r amlwg dro ar ôl tro oedd, ni waeth pa reoliadau a gaiff eu cyflwyno, bydd rhywrai mewn cymdeithas yn dymuno defnyddio gwelyau haul am ba bynnag reswm. I ryw raddau, mae’n debyg i’r ddadl ar ysmygu, oherwydd ni waeth pa negeseuon iechyd yr ydym yn eu cyfleu, na pha gyfyngiadau yr ydym yn eu cyflwyno, bydd lleiafrif sylweddol o unigolion yn dal i ddewis ysmygu. Felly, wrth edrych ar yr agwedd reoleiddio, mae arnom ddyletswydd i sicrhau ein bod yn cyflwyno gorfodaeth. Rhoddwyd un darn o dystiolaeth am y gwahanol safonau o salonau gwelyau haul a lliw haul, a’r diffyg cydymffurfio â gwahanol reoliadau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a fyddai’n rhoi—nid wyf yn siŵr ai ‘diogelwch’ yw’r gair iawn yn y cyd-destun hwn—rhyw fath o amddiffyniad rhag cyfarpar gwael. Er fy mod i a’m plaid yn cefnogi’r llwybr rheoleiddio a ddilynir yn gyfan gwbl, mae’n bwysig sylweddoli y bydd rhai unigolion, waeth pa dystiolaeth a gyflwynir, yn parhau i ddefnyddio gwelyau haul. Felly, mae angen hefyd inni sicrhau bod rheoliadau sy’n mynnu’r safonau uchaf posibl yn cael eu gweithredu yma yng Nghymru.

You do not need to walk too far from this building to find a tanning salon and an advertising hoarding that promotes the benefits of tanning. I was on Barry high street, on Holton Road, last week and saw a

Nid oes angen ichi gerdded yn rhy bell o’r adeilad hwn i ddod o hyd i salon lliw haul a hysbysfwrdd sy’n hyrwyddo manteision cael lliw haul. Yr oeddwn ar stryd fawr y Barri yn Holton Road yr wythnos diwethaf, a gwelais

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large poster promoting the Australian bronzed look. The salon to which it belonged was supervised, but there is another in the town that is unsupervised. How do you discriminate between the two when you are choosing to use the facilities? Unless we deal with the advertising, literature and information provided in the promotion of that lifestyle, if you like, we are pushing against a brick wall. As the Chair of the committee identified, large sections of the community in some parts of Wales said that they regularly use a sunbed salon of some description—I believe the Chair said that 33 per cent of young girls in Neath Port Talbot said that they did so.

boster mawr yn hysbysebu’r ffasiwn o gael lliw haul tebyg i bobl yn Awstralia. Yr oedd y salon a oedd yn cael ei hysbysebu ar y poster hwn yn un sy’n cael ei oruchwylio, ond mae yna salon arall yn y dref nad yw’n cael ei oruchwylio. Sut mae gwahaniaethu rhwng y ddau pan fyddwch yn dewis defnyddio’r cyfleusterau? Onid awn i’r afael â’r hysbysebu, y llenyddiaeth a’r wybodaeth a ddarperir wrth hyrwyddo’r ffordd honno o fyw, os mynnwch, yr ydym yn gwthio yn erbyn wal gerrig. Fel y mae Cadeirydd y pwyllgor wedi’i nodi, yr oedd rhannau sylweddol o’r gymuned mewn llawer rhan o Gymru yn dweud eu bod yn defnyddio salon lliw haul o ryw fath yn rheolaidd—credaf i’r Cadeirydd ddweud bod 33 y cant o ferched ifanc yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot wedi dweud eu bod wedi gwneud hynny.

Therefore, we have to work on three fronts: making the regulations more robust and more applicable to the situation on the ground; secondly, making sure that we afford people who wish to use sunbeds, having supplied information, the best possible protection in respect of the apparatus used, and ensure that it meets EU standards; and, thirdly, making sure that, if there is to be advertising and information, it is of a high quality so that people can make an informed choice. There is not one, silver-bullet solution to this problem.

Felly, rhaid inni weithredu ar dri pheth: gwneud y rheoliadau’n fwy cadarn ac yn fwy perthnasol i’r sefyllfa fel y mae; yn ail, gwneud yn siŵr bod pobl sy’n dymuno defnyddio gwelyau haul, ar ôl cael gwybodaeth amdanynt, yn cael eu hamddiffyn cystal ag y bo modd o ran y cyfarpar a ddefnyddir, a sicrhau bod y cyfarpar hwnnw’n cyrraedd safonau’r Undeb Ewropeaidd; ac yn drydydd, gwneud yn siŵr, os bydd unrhyw hysbysebu a gwybodaeth, eu bod o safon uchel fel y gall pobl wneud dewis cytbwys. Nid oes un ateb syml i’r broblem hon.

The images of skin cancer are horrendous to say the least. I concur fully with Val’s sentiments about the DVD provided by the BMA. You would have thought that having those images shown to you would have been enough to put anyone off using such a facility. I welcome the report, and I thank the Members, and the witnesses who gave evidence to the committee. This work informed me of the direction of travel that we need to take, and I hope that the Government will respond accordingly.

Mae’r darluniau o ganser y croen yn ddychrynllyd a dweud y lleiaf. Yr wyf yn cytuno’n llwyr â theimladau Val am y DVD a ddarparwyd gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain. Byddech wedi meddwl y byddai dangos y darluniau hynny wedi bod yn ddigon i wneud i unrhyw un beidio â dymuno defnyddio cyfleuster o’r fath. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r adroddiad, ac yn diolch i’r Aelodau, a’r tystion a roddodd dystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor. Mae’r gwaith hwn wedi dangos imi i ba gyfeiriad y mae angen inni fynd, a gobeithio y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ymateb yn unol â hynny.

David Lloyd: I rise to contribute to the debate, hopefully in a constructive manner, as a member of the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee. I commend the Chair on his opening remarks. As a GP, I am

David Lloyd: Codaf i gyfrannu at y ddadl, mewn modd adeiladol gobeithio, fel aelod o’r Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol. Yr wyf yn cymeradwyo’r Cadeirydd ar ei sylwadau agoriadol. Fel meddyg teulu, yr

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strongly in favour of all the evidence in the report and the conclusions contained therein. With my medical hat on, I can think of no justification whatsoever for ever using a sunbed. The evidence is irrefutable, and the conclusion is contained in the report: sunbeds cause skin cancer. You cannot advocate their use in any way through clever advertising. This is a pure medical explanation of the risks and of the fact that sunbeds cause skin cancer.

wyf yn gadarn o blaid yr holl dystiolaeth a’r casgliadau yn yr adroddiad. Gan wisgo fy het feddygol, ni allaf feddwl am ddim cyfiawnhad o gwbl dros ddefnyddio gwely haul. Ni ellir dadlau yn erbyn y dystiolaeth, ac mae’r casgliad wedi’i gynnwys yn yr adroddiad: mae gwelyau haul yn achosi canser y croen. Ni allwch ddadlau o blaid eu defnyddio mewn unrhyw ffordd trwy hysbysebu clyfar. Mae hwn yn esboniad meddygol pur o’r risgiau a’r ffaith fod gwelyau haul yn achosi canser y croen.

I am strongly in support of the central recommendation—and the Minister for health has signalled her agreement—that the Welsh Government should seek legislative competence in this area, and sooner rather than later. Hopefully, if we progress to Part 4 sooner rather than later, we might get the legislative competence in the devolved fields of health and local government sooner than we anticipated. If anyone is looking for yet another argument as to why we should streamline the mechanics of the Assembly, the sunbed debate is one such case in point.

Yr wyf yn cefnogi’n gryf yr argymhelliad canolog—ac mae’r Gweinidog dros iechyd wedi rhoi arwydd ei bod yn cytuno—y dylai Llywodraeth Cymru geisio cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol yn y maes hwn, a hynny cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Gobeithio, os awn ymlaen i Ran 4 cyn gynted ag y bo modd, y gallwn gael y cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol ym meysydd datganoledig iechyd a llywodraeth leol ynghynt nag yr oeddem wedi’i ragweld. Os oes unrhyw un yn chwilio am ddadl arall pam y dylem symleiddio systemau’r Cynulliad, mae’r ddadl am welyau haul yn un achos perthnasol iawn.

Lorraine Barrett: Do you agree that it is irresponsible for some of these websites to imply that you may be less likely to develop other cancers, such as breast and colon cancers, if you spend a short time on a sunbed? Given that you are a GP, I wondered if you could comment on that.

Lorraine Barrett: A ydych yn cytuno bod rhai o’r gwefannau hyn yn anghyfrifol wrth awgrymu y gallech fod yn llai tebygol o ddatblygu mathau eraill o ganser, megis canser y fron a chanser y colon, os treuliwch amser byr ar wely haul? Gan eich fod yn feddyg teulu, tybed a allech roi sylw ynghylch hynny.

David Lloyd: It is completely irresponsible—there are no health benefits to using a sunbed. It is a cultural phenomenon. Back in the eighteenth century, and Dr Gibbons will bear me out, it was considered unclean to be bronzed and tanned because you were then considered to be working class and an outdoor worker. Being white was the ideal. Two centuries later, we have turned things around and it is now cool to be bronzed. We should sometimes get back to an older way of thinking, and Andrew R.T. Davies would no doubt approve of that.

David Lloyd: Mae’n hollol anghyfrifol—nid oes dim manteision iechyd i ddefnyddio gwely haul. Ffenomen ddiwylliannol ydyw. Yn ôl yn y ddeunawfed ganrif, a bydd Dr Gibbons yn cadarnhau hyn, ystyrid bod cael lliw haul yn rhywbeth brwnt, oherwydd byddech wedyn yn cael eich ystyried yn rhan o’r dosbarth gweithiol yn gweithio yn yr awyr agored. Bod yn wyn oedd y ddelfryd. Ddwy ganrif yn ddiweddarach, yr ydym wedi troi pethau ar eu pen, ac erbyn hyn mae’n cŵl cael lliw haul. Weithiau dylem fynd yn ôl at ffordd hŷn o feddwl, ac nid oes amheuaeth na fyddai Andrew R.T. Davies yn cymeradwyo hynny.

To focus on the medical aspects of the report, it is very clear on the incidence of skin

I ganolbwyntio ar agweddau meddygol yr adroddiad, mae gwybodaeth glir ynddo am

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cancer. There were 2,042 deaths from malignant melanoma in the UK in 2007, and 113 of those deaths were in Wales. The report also states that malignant melanoma incidence rates in Britain have more than quadrupled since the 1970s. Those facts are irrefutable.

nifer y bobl sy’n dioddef gan ganser y croen. Bu farw 2,042 o bobl o felanoma canseraidd yn y DU yn 2007, a 113 o’r rheini yng Nghymru. Mae’r adroddiad hefyd yn nodi bod cyfraddau melanoma canseraidd ym Mhrydain wedi cynyddu dros bedair gwaith ers yr 1970au. Ni ellir dadlau yn erbyn y ffeithiau hynny.

The British Medical Association, in its evidence, as outlined by the committee Chair, quoted the World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer as saying that the classification of ultraviolet-emitting tanning devices has now changed from being ‘probably’ carcinogenic to humans to being ‘definitely’ carcinogenic to humans. That puts them in the highest category, alongside asbestos, benzene, tobacco and radium. You cannot challenge or argue against evidence. That is what international research has produced over the years and it obviously tallies with what members of the health service already knew.

Yn ei thystiolaeth, yr oedd Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, fel yr amlinellodd Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor, wedi dyfynnu Asiantaeth Ryngwladol Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd er Ymchwil Canser, a ddywedodd bod dosbarthiad dyfeisiau lliw haul sy’n allyrru pelydrau uwchfioled erbyn hyn wedi’i newid o fod yn rhywbeth sy’n ‘debygol’ o fod yn garsinogenig i bobl i rywbeth sydd ‘yn bendant’ yn garsinogenig i bobl. Mae hynny’n eu rhoi yn y categori uchaf, ochr yn ochr ag asbestos, bensen, tybaco a radiwm. Ni allwch herio’r dystiolaeth hon na dadlau yn ei herbyn. Dyna y mae gwaith ymchwil rhyngwladol wedi’i gynhyrchu dros y blynyddoedd, ac y mae’n amlwg ei fod yn cyd-fynd â’r hyn yr oedd aelodau’r gwasanaeth iechyd yn ei wybod eisoes.

A further piece of evidence, again highlighted by the international agency for research on cancer, and quoted by the BMA, Tenovus and others in their evidence to the committee, was that the risk of melanoma is increased by 75 per cent when use of tanning devices starts before 30 years of age. That is a phenomenal piece of evidence, which makes it absolutely clear that this increase is caused by the increasing use of sunbeds. There is a cumulative risk in sun exposure and sunburn from childhood onwards. That is why we particularly need to protect our younger people and why the main recommendation, as a minimum, is to bring forward legislation to prohibit the use of sunbeds by those who are under 18. As has already been mentioned today, and as we hear in evidence time and again, the only safe tan comes from a bottle.

Un darn arall o dystiolaeth y tynnodd yr Asiantaeth Ryngwladol er Ymchwil Canser sylw ato ac a ddyfynnwyd gan Gymdeithas Feddygol Prydain, Tenovus ac eraill yn eu tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor oedd bod risg melanoma yn cynyddu 75 y cant pan fydd pobl yn dechrau defnyddio dyfeisiau lliw haul cyn cyrraedd 30 oed. Mae hwnnw’n ddarn rhyfeddol o dystiolaeth, sy’n dangos yn hollol glir bod y cynnydd hwn yn cael ei achosi gan y cynnydd yn y defnydd a wneir o welyau haul. Mae’r risgiau sy’n gysylltiedig â dod i gysylltiad â’r haul a chael llosg haul yn cynyddu ar hyd oes dyn. Dyna pam mae’n arbennig o bwysig inni amddiffyn ein pobl ifanc, a dyna pam mae’r prif argymhelliad yw y dylid o leiaf gyflwyno deddfwriaeth i atal pobl dan 18 oed rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul. Fel y clywsom eisoes heddiw, ac fel y clywsom mewn tystiolaeth dro ar ôl tro, yr unig liw haul diogel yw’r un sy’n dod o botel.

Peter Black: As Dai was relating the fashion of the eighteenth century, I was thinking exactly the same, but, if my memory serves me correctly, the powder that they used at

Peter Black: Wrth i Dai sôn am y cysylltiad â ffasiwn y ddeunawfed ganrif, yr oeddwn innau’n meddwl yr un peth yn union, ond os cofiaf yn iawn, yr oedd y powdwr a

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that time to give them a pale complexion was as harmful as the sunbeds that are used today, in the sense that some of the chemicals in those powders were pretty carcinogenic and even deadlier. So, we should note that fashion is sometimes not good for you under any circumstances.

ddefnyddiai pobl bryd hynny er mwyn edrych yn welw mor niweidiol â’r gwelyau haul a ddefnyddir heddiw, o ran bod rhai o’r cemegion yn y powdrau hynny’n ddigon carsinogenig a hyd yn oed yn fwy angheuol. Felly, dylem sylwi nad yw ffasiwn bob amser yn dda ichi mewn unrhyw amgylchiadau.

I support the recommendations in this report and would look to introduce a licensing regime for sunbeds as soon as possible. When considering such issues, the principle that we must start from is that people should be protected from themselves. However, if people are adults and are able to make an informed choice, then they should not be prevented from making that choice. That is why the central recommendation on prohibiting the use of sunbeds by under-18s is the right way forward, because evidence to the committee stressed that sunbeds were particularly harmful to young children. We have seen examples of young teenagers burning themselves badly on sunbeds, sometimes irreparably, so it seems to me that any legislation should be there to enable adults to make their choice and to offer protection to those who are not in a position to make an informed choice or who might be damaged by using sunbeds in that way. We must acknowledge that adults will use sunbeds because that is the fashion—although we will give them lots of lectures, as Dai Lloyd has just done, about the damage that they are doing to themselves using them. At the end of the day, it is their choice, but I am sure that they will now make that choice armed with better information.

Yr wyf yn cefnogi’r argymhellion yn yr adroddiad hwn, a byddwn yn awyddus i gyflwyno cyfundrefn drwyddedu ar gyfer gwelyau haul cyn gynted ag y bo modd. Wrth ystyried materion o’r fath, yr egwyddor lle dylem ddechrau yw y dylai pobl gael eu hamddiffyn rhagddynt eu hunain. Fodd bynnag, os yw pobl yn oedolion ac yn gallu gwneud dewis cytbwys, ni ddylent gael eu hatal rhag gwneud y dewis hwnnw. Dyna pam mai’r argymhelliad canolog ar atal pobl dan 18 oed rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul yw’r ffordd ymlaen, oherwydd yr oedd y dystiolaeth a ddaeth gerbron y pwyllgor yn pwysleisio bod gwelyau haul yn arbennig o niweidiol i blant ifanc. Gwlesom enghreifftiau o bobl ifanc yn eu harddegau’n llosgi eu hunain yn ddrwg ar welyau haul, a hynny weithiau i raddau na ellir eu gwella. Felly, ymddengys i mi y dylai unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth alluogi oedolion i wneud eu dewis, ac amddiffyn y rheini nad ydynt mewn sefyllfa i wneud dewis cytbwys neu a allai gael eu niweidio trwy ddefnyddio gwelyau haul fel hyn. Rhaid inni gydnabod y bydd oedolion yn defnyddio gwelyau haul oherwydd dyna’r ffasiwn—er y byddwn yn rhoi sawl darlith iddynt, fel y mae Dai Lloyd newydd ei wneud, ar y niwed y maent yn ei wneud iddynt eu hunain trwy ddefnyddio gwelyau haul. Yn y pen draw, hwy sydd i ddewis, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant erbyn hyn yn gwneud y dewis hwnnw ar ôl cael gwell gwybodaeth.

3.30 p.m.

Therefore, we need to protect those high-risk groups if we can, and we need to ensure that we have well trained staff; that good advice is given to people when they are using sunbeds, and that information is available to people when they go to a salon to use the sunbeds. A point was well made earlier that the equipment in these salons needs to meet the latest standards for Britain and Europe on sunbed irradiance levels. It seems that

Felly, mae angen inni amddiffyn y grwpiau risg uchel hynny os gallwn, ac y mae angen inni sicrhau bod gennym staff wedi’u hyfforddi’n dda; bod cyngor da’n cael ei roi i bobl wrth ddefnyddio gwelyau haul, a bod gwybodaeth ar gael i bobl pan ânt i salon i ddefnyddio’r gwelyau haul. Gwnaed un pwynt pwysig yn gynharach, sef bod angen i’r cyfarpar yn y salonau hyn fodloni’r safonau diweddaraf a gyhoeddir gan Brydain

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licensing can achieve all that without introducing too great a burden on the owners of the salons, or on those who wish to use them and who are capable of making that decision for themselves.

ac Ewrop ar lefelau disgleirdeb gwelyau haul. Ymddengys y gall trwyddedu gyflawni hynny heb roi gormod o faich ar berchnogion y salonau, neu’r rheini sy’n dymuno’u defnyddio ac sy’n gallu gwneud y penderfyniad hwnnw drostynt eu hunain.

Val Lloyd referred to recommendation 2 earlier, about the need to seek legislative competence and introduce new laws to license, regulate and, if necessary, impose liabilities. I would be grateful if the Minister could give us some assurance that the private Member’s Bill that is currently going through the Houses of Parliament, and on which I understand the Government is offering as much support as possible, will give us the competence to introduce that regulatory regime. I am not fussed about how we get the powers—and I would prefer us to have them outright—but it would be better if we were able to get them through this Bill rather than through an LCO, particularly this close to a general election. In supporting that private Member’s Bill, we need to be assured that it contains the necessary clauses that will enable the Welsh Government, if not the UK Government, to introduce the sort of regulation envisaged in this report. I hope that the Minister can give us that assurance.

Cyfeiriodd Val Lloyd at argymhelliad 2 yn gynharach, ar yr angen i geisio cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol a chyflwyno deddfau newydd i reoleiddio a thrwyddedu, a lle bydd angen i orfodi rhwymedigaethau. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar pe gallai’r Gweinidog roi ychydig sicrwydd inni y bydd y Mesur Aelod Preifat sy’n mynd trwy ddau Dŷ’r Senedd ar hyn o bryd, a’r Llywodraeth, fel y deallaf, yn cynnig cymaint o gefnogaeth ag sy’n bosibl iddo, yn rhoi’r gallu inni gyflwyno’r gyfundrefn reoleiddio honno. Nid oes ots gennyf sut y cawn y pwerau—a byddai’n well gennyf pe baem yn eu cael yn gyfan gwbl—ond byddai’n well pe baem yn eu cael trwy’r Mesur hwn yn hytrach na thrwy Orchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol, yn enwedig a ninnau mor agos at etholiad cyffredinol. Wrth gefnogi’r Mesur Aelod Preifat hwnnw, mae arnom angen sicrwydd ei fod yn cynnwys y cymalau angenrheidiol a fydd yn galluogi Llywodraeth Cymru, os nad Llywodraeth y DU, i gyflwyno’r math o reoleiddio a ragwelir yn yr adroddiad hwn. Gobeithio y gall y Gweinidog roi’r sicrwydd hwnnw inni.

Many of the points raised in the report have already been covered by other Members. I conclude, therefore, by saying that the sooner we can outlaw unstaffed sunbed salons, the better, and the sooner we can ensure proper regulation to stop a teenager from putting coins in a slot and burning themselves to a crisp without any supervision or advice, the better. Therefore, once this private Member’s Bill becomes law—assuming that it does—I hope that we can get the regulation and the licensing in place as soon as possible to protect those who are not able to make informed choices for themselves.

Mae Aelodau eraill eisoes wedi ymdrin â nifer o’r pwyntiau a godwyd yn yr adroddiad. Gorffennaf, felly, trwy ddweud gorau po gyntaf y gallwn wahardd salonau gwelyau haul heb eu staffio, a gorau po gyntaf y gallwn sicrhau dulliau rheoleiddio cywir i atal unigolyn yn ei arddegau rhag rhoi arian mewn peiriant a’i losgi ei hun yn grimp heb ddim goruchwyliaeth neu gyngor. Felly, pan ddaw’r Mesur Aelod Preifat hwn yn ddeddf—a bwrw y bydd hynny’n digwydd—gobeithio y gallwn roi’r rheoleiddio a’r trwyddedu ar waith cyn gynted ag y bo modd er mwyn amddiffyn pobl sy’n methu gwneud dewisiadau cytbwys drostynt eu hunain.

Ann Jones: My colleagues on the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee have mentioned all the points that I was going to raise, so we are clearly all singing from the same hymn sheet on that, which is

Ann Jones: Mae fy nghydweithwyr ar y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol wedi crybwyll yr holl bwyntiau yr oeddwn yn bwriadu eu codi, felly, mae’n amlwg ein bod i gyd o’r un farn am hynny, sy’n dda o beth.

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great. Betsan Powys’s weblog talks about the historic vote that we took yesterday, and she says that

Mae gwe-flog Betsan Powys yn sôn am y bleidlais hanesyddol a gafwyd yma ddoe, ac meddai

‘if you missed yesterday’s debate and vote because you had a job to go to…a hospital or care home or sunbed or art centre or gym to visit…watch the debate—and the vote here’.

os oeddech wedi methu’r ddadl a’r bleidlais ddoe oherwydd bod gennych waith i’w wneud...neu ysbyty neu gartref gofal neu wely haul neu ganolfan gelfyddydau neu gampfa i ymweld â hi...gwyliwch y ddadl—a’r bleidlais yn y fan hon.

Betsan, if you are listening, I suggest that you take the word ‘sunbed’ out of that list, because you should not be encouraging people to go on sunbeds or to tanning salons.

Betsan, os ydych yn gwrando, awgrymaf eich bod yn tynnu’r geiriau ‘gwely haul’ allan o’r rhestr honno, oherwydd ni ddylech fod yn annog pobl i fynd ar welyau haul neu ymweld â salonau lliw haul.

The International Agency for Research on Cancer has been mentioned a great deal, and it was its research that told us that sunbeds are dangerous, causing the major shift in opinion. There is a growing consensus that we cannot allow children and young people to use this form of radiation with little benefit. I am convinced that there is no positive reason for allowing young people to harm themselves in this way. Dai Lloyd talked about the benefits—or lack thereof—of using sunbeds. People say that they want vitamin D from them, but that is a pretty poor defence. You can get vitamin D just from going outside—or, if you want it that badly, take a vitamin supplement. Let us face it, who uses sunbeds to get their vitamin D intake?

Cyfeiriwyd lawer at yr Asiantaeth Ryngwladol er Ymchwil Canser, a gwaith ymchwil gan yr asiantaeth hon a ddangosodd inni fod gwelyau haul yn beryglus, gan achosi newid barn sylweddol. Mae yna gydsyniad cynyddol na allwn ganiatáu i blant a phobl ifanc ddefnyddio’r math hwn o belydriad sy’n cynnig cyn lleied o fudd. Yr wyf wedi fy argyhoeddi nad oes dim rheswm cadarnhaol dros ganiatáu i bobl ifanc eu niweidio’u hunain fel hyn. Mae Dai Lloyd wedi sôn am fanteision—neu ddiffyg manteision—defnyddio gwelyau haul. Mae pobl yn dweud eu bod am gael fitamin D oddi wrth welyau haul, ond mae hwnnw’n rheswm digon tila. Mae modd cael fitamin D yn ddigon hawdd trwy fynd allan i’r awyr iach, neu os ydych mor awyddus â hynny i gael fitamin D, dylech gymryd fitaminau atodol. Gadewch inni wynebu’r gwir, pwy sy’n defnyddio gwelyau haul i gael eu dogn o fitamin D?

It is also dangerous to use a sunbed before going on holidays, because it means that you are less likely to stay out of the sun. You are tanned and therefore you stay in the sun a lot longer, and so they give a false sense of security. It is great that Nicola Roberts from the band Girls Aloud has joined the campaign against tanning. She is a young person who steps onto the stage in front of thousands of people in arenas around the world, and she does not need a tan to look great. Her journey is one with which young people can empathise. It is not extraordinary; it is just simple and right. We should embrace Nicola’s brave willingness to put her head

Mae hefyd yn beryglus defnyddio gwely haul cyn mynd ar wyliau, oherwydd mae’n golygu eich bod yn llai tebygol o aros yn y cysgod. Mae gennych liw haul, felly, byddwch yn aros yn yr haul lawer yn hwy, ac felly mae defnyddio gwelyau haul yn gwneud i bobl deimlo’n ddiogel pan nad ydynt mewn gwirionedd. Mae’n beth da iawn bod Nicola Roberts o’r band Girls Aloud wedi ymuno â’r ymgyrch yn erbyn cael lliw haul. Mae’n berson ifanc sy’n camu i’r llwyfan o flaen miloedd o bobl mewn cyngherddau mawr ar hyd a lled y byd, ac nid oes angen iddi gael lliw haul i edrych yn wych. Gall pobl ifanc uniaethu â’i stori. Nid yw’n anghyffredin;

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above the parapet, because, whether we like it or not, we must face it that teenagers are not listening to our debate, although they may listen to Nicola Roberts from Girls Aloud. Julie Morgan’s private Member’s Bill is gathering momentum in the House of Commons. I am pleased about that, and I am pleased that she is working with officials in the Welsh Assembly Government to bring this work to fruition.

mae’n syml ac yn iawn. Dylem fanteisio ar barodrwydd dewr Nicola i leisio’i barn, oherwydd p’un a ydym yn hoffi hynny ai peidio, rhaid inni wynebu’r ffaith nad yw pobl ifanc yn eu harddegau’n gwrando ar ein dadl ni, ond y mae’n bosibl y byddant yn gwrando ar Nicola Roberts o Girls Aloud. Mae Mesur Aelod Preifat Julie Morgan yn codi momentwm yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin. Yr wyf yn falch o hynny, ac yr wyf yn falch ei bod yn gweithio gyda swyddogion yn Llywodraeth y Cynulliad i gyflawni’r gwaith hwn.

The evidence from sunbed companies left a lot to be desired, in my humble opinion. They misinterpret what we mean when we talk about staffing and staffed salons. To me, a staffed salon means that somebody is present 24 hours a day, seven days a week, or for however long the tanning salon is open, not that they are looking at a group of tanning salons via closed-circuit television cameras from a control room, or just popping in now and again, or changing the view every now and again. That is not what we were talking about when we said that we were looking for supervision. Supervision should be at all times.

Yr oedd y dystiolaeth gan gwmnïau gwelyau haul ymhell o fod yn foddhaol, yn fy marn fach i. Maent yn camddehongli’r hyn a olygwn pan fyddwn yn sôn am staffio a salonau wedi’u staffio. I mi, mae salon wedi’i staffio yn golygu bod rhywun yn bresennol 24 awr y dydd, saith diwrnod yr wythnos, neu am ba bynnag hyd y bydd y salon lliw haul ar agor. Nid yw’n golygu staff sy’n gwylio grŵp o salonau lliw haul trwy gamerâu teledu cylch cyfyng o ystafell reoli, neu staff sy’n ymweld â’r salon bob yn awr ac yn y man, neu’n newid cyfeiriad y camera bob yn awr ac yn y man. Nid dyna’r oeddem yn sôn amdano wrth ddweud ein bod yn awyddus i gael goruchwyliaeth. Dylai salonau gael eu goruchwylio drwy’r amser.

This is not about trying to tell people that they cannot enjoy themselves. It is not about telling people whether they should or should not feel good. If young people feel the need to be constantly tanned to feel good, perhaps they have issues that go more than skin deep. Perhaps we should look at those issues.

Nid ceisio dweud wrth bobl y mae hyn na allant eu mwynhau eu hunain. Nid yw’n golygu dweud wrth bobl a ddylent deimlo’n dda ai peidio. Os yw pobl ifanc yn teimlo bod angen iddynt gael lliw haul drwy’r amser er mwyn teimlo’n dda, efallai bod ganddynt broblemau sy’n mynd yn ddyfnach na’r lliw haul ar eu croen. Efallai y dylem ystyried y problemau hynny.

The report concludes that the health benefits of tanning are unproven and marginal at best. I have always been pale and interesting. I think that pale and interesting is fantastic. I have had a good life being pale and interesting, and I think that many more can, too.

Mae’r adroddiad yn dod i’r casgliad nad yw’r manteision iechyd o gael lliw haul wedi’u profi eto, a’u bod yn ymylol ar y gorau. Yr wyf i erioed yn olau ac yn wahanol. Mae bod yn olau ac yn wahanol yn wych yn fy marn i. Yr wyf wedi cael bywyd da a minnau’n olau ac yn wahanol, a chredaf y gall llawer o bobl eraill hefyd wneud hynny.

The Presiding Officer: Nerys Evans—pale and interesting? [Laughter.]

Y Llywydd: Nerys Evans—a ydych chi’n olau ac yn wahanol? [Chwerthin.]

Nerys Evans: Sut mae dilyn hynny? Nerys Evans: How do you follow that?

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Diolch am y cyfle i gyfrannu. Nid wyf yn aelod o’r pwyllgor, ond bûm yn ymgyrchu ynghylch y mater hwn ers peth amser, ac yr wyf yn falch o weld y pwyllgor yn arwain yn y maes hwn, ac yr wyf hefyd yn falch o weld ymateb y Gweinidog.

Thank you for the opportunity to contribute. I am not a member of the committee, but I have been campaigning on this matter for some time, and I am pleased to see the committee taking the lead in this area, and I am also pleased to see the Minister’s response.

A minnau’n un sydd wedi defnyddio gwelyau haul yn achlysurol dros y blynyddoedd pan oeddwn yn fy arddegau, efallai y dylwn ddatgan buddiant. Fe’u defnyddiwn ar sawl achlysur mewn canolfannau chwaraeon, mewn salonau, ac mewn caffi—ie, caffi. Credwch neu beidio, ond yr oedd gwely haul mewn ystafell gefn mewn caffi yn nhref Caerfyrddin. Dyna un o’r problemau sylfaenol sydd yn ein hwynebu. Mae wedi dod yn amlwg o’r dystiolaeth nad oes modd cael ffigurau cywir am nifer y gwelyau haul masnachol sydd ar gael yng Nghymru. Mae gan yr awdurdodau lleol rôl i fonitro, ond yr wyf yn amau’n fawr a oedd gan Gyngor Sir Caerfyrddin unrhyw wybodaeth am y gwely haul hwnnw yn ystafell gefn y caffi yng nghanol tref Caerfyrddin.

As someone who has used sunbeds occasionally over the years when I was a teenager, perhaps I should declare an interest. I would use them on a number of occasions in sports centres, salons, and a cafe—yes, a café. Believe it or not, there was a sunbed in a back room of a café in Carmarthen. That is one of the fundamental problems facing us. It has become apparent from the evidence that it is not possible to obtain accurate figures of the number of commercial subeds available in Wales. Local authorities have a monitoring role, but I very much doubt that Carmarthen County Council had any knowledge of that sunbed in the backroom of a café in the middle of Carmarthen.

Mae pryder mawr hefyd ynghylch delwedd gwelyau haul gan eu bod ar gael mewn canolfannau chwaraeon. Mae popeth ynghylch canolfannau chwaraeon yn ymwneud â chadw’n heini a chadw’n iach. Mae gweld gwelyau haul yn y sefydliadau hyn yn bychanu difrifoldeb y perygl sydd ynghlwm wrthynt. Clywsom gan sawl un y prynhawn yma mor ddifrifol yw canlyniadau defnyddio gwelyau haul. Anogaf y Gweinidog, felly, os a phan gawn ni rym yn y maes hwn, i edrych ar yr elfen bwysig honno.

There is also great concern about the image of subeds since they are available in sports centres. Everything about sports centres is to do with keeping fit and healthy. Seeing sunbeds in these institutions belittles the seriousness and the danger related to them. We have heard from many people this afternoon of the grave consequences of using sunbeds. I encourage the Minister, therefore, if and when we have powers in this area, to look at that important element.

Mae’r pwyllgor wedi cytuno’n glir bod angen datganoli’r pŵer dros y mater hwn er mwyn i Lywodraeth Cymru benderfynu ar y rheoliadau. Ni chewch eich synnu o glywed fy mod yn cefnogi hwn yn frwd. Mae ymgais Julie Morgan yr Aelod Seneddol i dynhau’r rheoliadau wedi cael ei chrybwyll, ac mae hynny i’w chroesawu. Mae pwynt pwysig o ran egwyddor yn hyn o beth, gan fod gan yr Alban eisoes y pwerau i wneud rheoliadau tebyg. Nid yw ond yn iawn i ni gael y pwerau yng Nghymru hefyd.

The committee has clearly agreed that power needs to be devolved on this issue so that the Welsh Government can decide the regulations. You will not be surprised to hear that I am very supportive of this. The efforts by Julie Morgan, Member of Parliament, to tighten the regulations have been mentioned, and they are to be welcomed. There is an important point of principle here, since Scotland already has the powers to make similar regulations. It is only right that we, in Wales, should have the same powers.

Er ein bod yn croesawu’r datblygiadau yn Although we welcome the developments in

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San Steffan dan law Julie Morgan, mae’r Llywodraeth wedi dangos nad yw hyn yn flaenoriaeth iddi drwy adael i Aelod o’r meinciau cefn gyflwyno’r mesur yn hytrach na gwneud y peth ei hun fel rhan o’i rhaglen llywodraethu. Mae honno’n agwedd tra gwahanol, rhaid dweud, i agwedd y Gweinidog yma yng Nghymru. Annhebygol ydyw hefyd y bydd y mesur yn cyrraedd pen ei daith cyn yr etholiad cyffredinol o ystyried yr amserlen. Byddai’n dda clywed mwy o fanylion, os oes mwy ar gael, gan y Gweinidog.

Westminster, led by Julie Morgan, the Government has shown that this is not a priority by allowing a backbench Member to introduce the bill rather than including it as part of its programme of government. That is a very different attitude, it must be said, from the attitude of the Minister here in Wales. It is also unlikely that the bill will complete its passage through Westminster before the general election given the timescale. It would be good to hear more details, if they are available, from the Minister.

Felly, mae angen yr LCO arfaethedig hwn arnom yn awr, cyn unrhyw bleidlais ‘ie’ mewn refferendwm, er mwyn i reoliadau Cymru adlewyrchu anghenion Cymru a gwarchod ei phobl rhag peryglon gwelyau haul. Yn wir, gobeithiwn y bydd y Gweinidog dros iechyd yn gallu mynd â’r rheoliadau ymhellach nag argymhellion y pwyllgor. Y peth pwysig yw gwneud y penderfyniadau yma yng Nghymru. Yr wyf yn siŵr y cawn drafodaeth rywbryd eto am fanylion unrhyw Fesur.

Therefore, we need this proposed LCO now, before any ‘yes’ vote in the referendum, to ensure that regulations in Wales reflect the needs of Wales and protect our people from the dangers of sunbeds. Indeed, we hope the Minister for health will be able to take the regulations further than the committee’s recommendations. The important thing is to make the decisions here in Wales. I am sure we will have a discussion on the details of any Measure at some later date.

I gloi, hoffwn dynnu sylw at elfen bwysig sydd wedi’i chrybwyll gan rai y prynhawn yma, sef defnyddio pwerau nad ydynt yn dibynnu ar gael LCO i reoleiddio gwelyau haul. Elfen arall bwysig yw’r frwydr yn erbyn y ddelwedd bod defnyddio gwelyau haul yn normal ac yn dderbyniol. Hoffwn weld cymdeithas yn gwrthod y syniad hwnnw.

In conclusion, I should like to draw attention to an important element mentioned by some this afternoon, which is the use of powers that do not depend on having an LCO to regulate the use of sunbeds. Another important element is the need to battle against the perception that the use of sunbeds is a normal and acceptable practice. I should like to see society rejecting this idea.

3.40 p.m.

Gwyddom am y cysylltiad gyda chancr, ac mae sawl un wedi ymhelaethu ar y pwynt hwnnw heddiw. Mewn blynyddoedd i ddod, hoffwn weld cymdeithas yn edrych yn ôl ar yr adeg hon yn yr un modd ag yr ydym yn awr yn edrych yn ôl ar yr adeg pan oedd yfed a gyrru yn gyfreithlon ac yn dderbyniol, a phan oedd defnyddio asbestos, er enghraifft, yn gyffredin. Gobeithiaf hefyd y bydd yr un peth yn wir am ddefnyddio tybaco, ond dadl arall yw honno. Gobeithiaf y byddwn yn edrych yn ôl ac yn cael ein syfrdanu bod agweddau tebyg wedi bod yn dderbyniol, a’i bod hefyd yn iawn i’n plant a’n pobl ifainc ddefnyddio gwelyau haul. Yr wyf yn siarad fel rhywun a oedd yn defnyddio gwelyau

We all know of the link with cancer, and many Members have discussed that point in detail this afternoon. In the years to come, I should like to see society looking back at this period in the same way as it looks back at the time when drinking and driving was legal and acceptable, and when the use of asbestos, for example, was commonplace. I very much hope the same thing will apply to tobacco, but that is another issue for another day. When we look back, I hope we will be surprised that such attitudes were acceptable and that it was considered acceptable to allow our children and young people to use sunbeds. I speak as someone who used sunbeds at the age of 15 or 16. I was totally

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haul pan oeddwn yn 15 neu’n 16 oed. Yr oeddwn yn hollol naïf, yn ifanc ac yn ffôl.

naive, and I was young and foolish.

Mae hwn yn ymwneud ag addysgu, ac mae’n ehangach na dyletswydd y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol yn unig. Mae’n ddyletswydd ar y Llywodraeth gyfan a phawb ohonom fel unigolion. Hoffwn ddiolch i’r pwyllgor am ei waith gwerthfawr yn y maes hwn, ac edrychaf ymlaen at glywed ymateb y Gweinidog ac am ddatblygiadau pellach yn y maes.

This is a matter of education, and it goes beyond the duties of the Minister for Health and Social Services. There is a duty on the whole of Government and on all of us as individuals. I should like to thank the committee for its valuable work in this field, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response and to seeing further developments in this area.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): From the outset, I warmly welcome the Health, Wellbeing and Local Government Committee’s inquiry into the use and regulation of sunbeds in Wales. It has raised the profile of the public health risk of skin cancer associated with sunbed use. It is not just about regulation for the under-18s; it is also a good health message to convey to the general public.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): O’r cychwyn cyntaf, yr wyf yn croesawu ymchwiliad y Pwyllgor Iechyd, Lles a Llywodraeth Leol i’r defnydd o welyau haul yng Nghymru a’u rheoleiddio. Mae wedi codi proffil risg canser y croen yn gysylltiedig â defnyddio gwelyau haul, sy’n broblem iechyd y cyhoedd. Mae’r mater yn fwy na dim ond rheoleiddio’r defnydd y mae pobl ifanc dan 18 oed yn ei wneud o welyau haul; mae hefyd yn neges dda i’w chyfleu i’r cyhoedd yn gyffredinol ynghylch iechyd.

I welcome the inquiry report and agree with its central conclusions. The committee has given thorough consideration to the considerable evidence submitted to its inquiry and has produced a well balanced report on the issues. I have provided a response to that report and its recommendations, which has been published on the Assembly Commission’s website.

Yr wyf yn croesawu adroddiad yr ymchwiliad, ac yn cytuno â’i gasgliadau canolog. Mae’r pwyllgor wedi ystyried yn drylwyr y swmp sylweddol o dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd i’w ymchwiliad, ac mae wedi cynhyrchu adroddiad cytbwys ar y problemau. Yr wyf wedi darparu ymateb i’r adroddiad hwnnw a’i argymhellion, sydd wedi’i gyhoeddi ar wefan Comisiwn y Cynulliad.

There is a good reason to take action on sunbeds, and evidence to that effect can be found from a number of sources, including the conclusions and recommendations of the report by the independent expert advisory Committee on Medical Aspects of Radiation in the Environment on the safety of ultraviolet sunbeds in the UK, published in June 2009. That was an important document for consideration by the committee and others.

Ceir rheswm da dros weithredu ynghylch gwelyau haul, a gellir dod o hyd i dystiolaeth sy’n dangos hynny mewn sawl ffynhonnell, gan gynnwys y casgliadau a’r argymhellion a geir yn yr adroddiad gan y Pwyllgor ymgynghorol arbenigol annibynnol ar yr Agweddau meddygol ar Ymbelydredd yn yr Amgylchedd, ynghylch pa mor ddiogel yw gwelyau haul uwchfioled yn y DU, a gyhoeddwyd ym mis Mehefin 2009. Yr oedd honno’n ddogfen bwysig i’r pwyllgor ac eraill ei hystyried.

The World Health Organization’s International Agency for Research on Cancer announced in July 2009 that the classification of sunbeds and tanning devices should be

Ym mis Gorffennaf 2009, cyhoeddodd Asiantaeth Ryngwladol Sefydliad Iechyd y Byd er Ymchwil Canser y dylid codi dosbarthiad gwelyau haul a dyfeisiau lliw

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raised. That announcement has also been warmly welcomed as it lends scientific weight to the arguments in this report. In May 2009, the Health and Safety Executive revised its health and safety guidance relating to UV tanning equipment and recommended that people aged under 18 should not use sunbeds. It also said that, to follow good practice, salons should be supervised by trained staff. I take on board the comments made by Ann Jones that supervision should mean that there is a person there during the opening hours of the operation, not just cameras looking in from a distance or people popping in occasionally. There has to be proper supervision and proper records should be kept.

haul. Mae’r cyhoeddiad hwnnw wedi cael ei groesawu’n fawr hefyd, gan ei fod yn rhoi sail wyddonol i’r dadleuon yn yr adroddiad hwn. Ym mis Mai 2009, adolygodd yr Awdurdod Gweithredol Iechyd a Diogelwch ei arweiniad iechyd a diogelwch ar offer lliw haul uwchfioled, ac argymhellodd na ddylai pobl ifanc dan 18 oed ddefnyddio gwelyau haul. Dywedodd hefyd y dylai salonau gael eu goruchwylio gan staff wedi’u hyfforddi, er mwyn cydymffurfio ag arfer da. Yr wyf wedi gwrando ar y sylwadau a wnaed gan Ann Jones a ddywedodd y dylai goruchwyliaeth olygu bod unigolyn yno yn ystod yr oriau pan fydd y cyfleuster ar agor, ac na ddylai olygu defnyddio camerâu i edrych i mewn o bell neu drefnu bod rhywun yn ymweld â’r salon yn achlysurol. Rhaid cael trefniadau goruchwylio iawn a chadw cofnodion iawn.

The Cancer Research UK study, which Val referred to, looks at the prevalence of sunbed use among young people in Wales. It found that around 8 per cent of all children aged 11 to 17 have used a sunbed at least once. That is a staggering statistic, given that age range. There are issues here. Sunbed use is not gender specific—just as many young men use sunbeds as young women. They have an idea of what their image should be, they want to look fit and well, and they think that a sunbed will help them to achieve that look. Therefore, Nerys is correct to say that this is a big exercise for us to undertake, given the images that are portrayed of how people should look.

Mae astudiaeth Cancer Research UK, y cyfeiriodd Val ati, yn edrych i weld pa mor aml y bydd pobl ifanc yng Nghymru’n defnyddio gwelyau haul. Gwelwyd o’r astudiaeth bod tuag 8 y cant o blant rhwng 11 a 17 oed wedi defnyddio gwely haul o leiaf unwaith. Mae hwnnw’n ystadegyn syfrdanol, o gofio’r ystod oedran dan sylw. Mae yna broblemau yn y maes hwn. Nid yw defnyddio gwelyau haul yn rhywbeth penodol i un rhyw yn unig—mae llawn cymaint o ddynion ifanc yn defnyddio gwelyau haul ag o fenywod ifanc. Mae ganddynt syniad sut y dylent ymddangos, maent am edrych yn heini ac yn iach, ac maent yn credu y bydd defnyddio gwely haul yn eu helpu i gyflawni hynny. Felly, mae Nerys yn iawn i ddweud bod hwn yn ymarfer mawr inni ymgymryd ag ef, o gofio’r delweddau a bortreadir o’r modd y dylai pobl edrych.

The committee’s conclusions from this inquiry added to the impetus to develop a sunbed policy for Wales. I remain firmly committed to prohibit the use of sunbeds by persons under the age of 18 as well as the unsupervised and self-determined operation of sunbeds in salons. That work is of a high priority. In the event of the private Member’s Bill falling, I will continue to pursue all appropriate legislative options as a means of achieving sunbed regulation for Wales.

Yr oedd casgliadau’r pwyllgor o’r ymchwiliad hwn wedi ychwanegu at yr ysgogiad i ddatblygu polisi i Gymru ar welyau haul. Yr wyf yn dal wedi ymrwymo’n gadarn i atal pobl ifanc dan 18 oed rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul, a gwahardd salonau rhag caniatáu i bobl ddefnyddio gwelyau haul fel y mynnont a heb oruchwyliaeth. Rhoddir blaenoriaeth uchel i’r gwaith hwnnw. Os digwydd i’r Mesur Aelod Preifat fethu, byddaf yn parhau i ddilyn pob dewis deddfwriaethol priodol fel ffordd i sicrhau rheoleiddio gwelyau haul yng Nghymru.

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Peter and Val both referred to point 2 of the committee’s report and the importance of dealing with these issues. I am pleased that Julie Morgan MP was successful in the private Member’s Bill ballot in November 2009 and is taking sunbed regulation for England and Wales forward at Westminster. I have met Julie Morgan to discuss her Bill and have expressed my support for legislative controls in this area. The Sunbeds (Regulation) Bill was successful in its Second Reading in the House of Commons on 29 January and is now at Committee Stage. Therefore, there is a possibility that that Bill will be on the statute book.

Cyfeiriodd Peter a Val at bwynt 2 yn adroddiad y pwyllgor, a phwysigrwydd ymdrin â’r materion hyn. Yr wyf yn falch fod Julie Morgan AS wedi bod yn llwyddiannus yn y balot i gael Mesur Aelod Preifat ym mis Tachwedd 2009, a’i bod yn symud mater rheoleiddio gwelyau haul yng Nghymru a Lloegr yn ei flaen yn San Steffan. Yr wyf wedi cyfarfod â Julie Morgan i drafod ei Mesur ac wedi datgan fy nghefnogaeth i gael mesurau rheoli trwy ddeddfwriaeth yn y maes hwn. Yr oedd y Mesur Gwelyau Haul (Rheoleiddio) yn llwyddiannus yn ei ail ddarlleniad yn Nhŷ’r Cyffredin ar 29 Ionawr, ac mae wedi cyrraedd y cam Pwyllgor erbyn hyn. Felly, mae posibilrwydd y bydd y Mesur hwnnw ar y llyfr statud.

Like you, Nerys, I am well aware that the Westminster parliamentary session is short and that there is a significant risk. Therefore, it is important to consider all legislative options, including that of seeking legislative competence to ensure maximum flexibility in achieving policy objectives, should the private Members’ Bill be unsuccessful. We are waiting in a timeframe at the moment, and there will be action if the legislation does not go through.

Yr wyf fi, fel chithaun Nerys, yn ymwybodol iawn fod y sesiwn seneddol yn San Steffan yn fyr, a bod risg sylweddol. Felly, mae’n bwysig ystyried pob dewis deddfwriaethol, gan gynnwys ceisio cael cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol i sicrhau’r hyblygrwydd mwyaf posibl wrth gyflawni amcanion y polisi, pe bai’r Mesur Aelod Preifat yn methu. Yr ydym yn disgwyl o fewn amserlen ar hyn o bryd, a chaiff camau gweithredu eu cymryd os na fydd y ddeddfwriaeth yn llwyddo.

On Peter’s point, if successful, the Bill will create a prohibition on under-18s using commercial sunbeds and provide sanctions for non-compliance. It will create regulation-making powers for local government in Wales, to be exercisable by Welsh Ministers, and that is the important point. They will prohibit the unsupervised use of sunbeds in commercial premises; ensure the provision of information to adult users of commercial sunbeds about the health risks associated with sunbed use, which is an important element in this; prohibit the sale and hire of sunbeds to persons under 18 years of age; and, prohibit a person from providing or offering to provide a sunbed for the use of people under 18 years of age in a dwelling house for direct or indirect payment, which is intended to capture small businesses. I am not sure that it would capture the cafe that Nerys mentioned, but it might do so. It is also worth bearing in mind the location of these sunbeds—there would be a job of work to

O ran y pwynt a wnaed gan Peter, os bydd y Mesur yn llwyddo, bydd yn atal pobl ifanc dan 18 rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul masnachol ac yn gosod cosbau am fethu cydymffurfio â’r ddeddfwriaeth. Bydd yn creu pwerau gwneud rheoliadau ar gyfer llywodraeth leol yng Nghymru, i’w harfer gan Weinidogion Cymru, a dyna’r pwynt pwysig. Byddant yn gwahardd defnyddio gwelyau haul heb oruchwyliaeth mewn mannau masnachol; byddant yn sicrhau bod oedolion sy’n defnyddio gwelyau haul masnachol yn cael gwybodaeth am y risgiau iechyd sy’n gysylltiedig â defnyddio gwelyau haul, sy’n elfen bwysig o hyn i gyd; byddant yn gwahardd gwerthu a hurio gwelyau haul i unigolion dan 18 oed; a byddant yn gwahardd unigolyn rhag darparu neu gynnig darparu gwely haul i unigolion dan 18 oed ei ddefnyddio mewn cartref am dâl uniongyrchol neu anuniongyrchol, a bwriad hynny yw dal busnesau bach. Nid wyf yn siŵr a fyddai’n dal y caffi y soniodd Nerys

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look at these issues. The powers will also ensure that there is provision to make the wearing of protective eyewear compulsory for those adults choosing to use sunbeds. To be honest, we hope that the legislation will be there for us to undertake this work.

amdano, ond efallai y byddai’n gwneud hynny. Mae hefyd yn werth cofio lleoliad y gwelyau haul hyn—byddai’n dasg edrych ar y materion hyn i gyd. Bydd y pwerau hefyd yn sicrhau darpariaeth i golygu ei bod yn orfodol i’r oedolion hynny sy’n dewis defnyddio gwelyau haul wisgo gogls i ddiogelu eu llygaid. A dweud y gwir, yr ydym yn gobeithio y bydd y ddeddfwriaeth yno inni wneud y gwaith hwn.

So, I very much commend the committee’s report to the Chamber, and I am pleased that we, as a Government, are able to accept its core recommendations. United across the Chamber, we will need to move ahead to ensure that the appropriate legislation is in place.

Felly, yr wyf yn sicr yn cymeradwyo adroddiad y pwyllgor i’r Siambr, ac yr wyf yn falch ein bod ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn gallu derbyn ei argymhellion craidd. Bydd angen inni fod yn unedig ar draws y Siambr a symud yn ein blaen i sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth briodol mewn grym.

Darren Millar: I thank every Member who has taken part in this extremely well-informed debate, and I am delighted that there has been support from every speaker on this particular matter.

Darren Millar: Diolch i bob Aelod sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon. Mae wedi bod yn ddadl ddeallus iawn, ac yr wyf wrth fy modd ein bod wedi cael cefnogaeth gan bob siaradwr ar y mater penodol hwn.

To refer to some of the individual contributions, Val Lloyd made some important points about the support from outside organisations, such as the BMA and Cancer Research UK, and other speakers spoke about Tenovus. We are grateful to them for pursuing this vigorously with their own campaigns, because we need swift action. As Val said, there is a clear need to legislate in terms of the evidence presented to us.

I gyfeirio at rai o’r cyfraniadau unigol, gwnaeth Val Lloyd rai pwyntiau pwysig am y gefnogaeth gan sefydliadau o’r tu allan, megis Cymdeithas Feddygol Prydain a Cancer Research UK, a soniodd siaradwyr eraill am Tenovus. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar iddynt am gynnal eu hymgyrchoedd egnïol eu hunain ar y mater hwn, oherwydd mae angen inni weithredu ar frys. Fel y dywedodd Val, mae angen clir am ddeddfu yng nghyswllt y dystiolaeth a gyflwynwyd inni.

Andrew R.T. Davies made reference to the powerful evidence that we received from Jill McRae, the mother of Kirsty, who was severely burnt. That had a huge impact on members of the committee when we were drawing up our recommendations. He also made reference to the fact that the Petitions Committee received a petition on this particular subject. It is clear that there is also public support for the recommendations that we have put forward. It was interesting that he referred to the Australian bronzed look in the advertisements in Barry. However, I would suggest, Andrew, that if you take up the opportunity to have an Australian bronzed look, you get it from a spray tan rather than a sunbed.

Cyfeiriodd Andrew R.T. Davies at y dystiolaeth rymus gan Jill McRae, mam Kirsty a gafodd ei llosgi’n ddifrifol. Cafodd y dystiolaeth honno effaith enfawr ar aelodau’r pwyllgor wrth inni lunio ein hargymhellion. Cyfeiriodd hefyd at y ffaith fod y Pwyllgor Deisebau wedi cael deiseb ar y mater penodol hwn. Mae’n amlwg bod y cyhoedd yn cefnogi’r argymhellion yr ydym wedi’u cyflwyno. Yr oedd yn ddiddorol bod Andrew wedi cyfeirio at gael lliw haul fel pobl Awstralia ar hysbysebion yn y Barri. Fodd bynnag, byddwn yn awgrymu, Andrew, os byddwch yn cymryd y cyfle i gael lliw haul tebyg i bobl Awstralia, y dylech wneud hynny trwy chwistrellu lliw haul, yn hytrach na thrwy wely haul.

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Dai Lloyd made reference to the irrefutable evidence that we received as a committee about the links between sunbeds and cancer, and the other associated health risks. Lorraine’s intervention was also poignant on the misleading information out there, on the internet, and being made available by some tanning outlets on the so-called health benefits of sunbeds and their use. That was something that the committee was particularly concerned about, and it is why we need a proper education campaign. We have made that recommendation on the SunSmart programme.

Cyfeiriodd Dai Lloyd at y dystiolaeth ddiamheuol a gawsom fel pwyllgor am y cysylltiadau rhwng gwelyau haul a chanser, a’r risgiau cysylltiedig eraill i iechyd. Cafwyd ymyriad teimladwy gan Lorraine hefyd am y wybodaeth gamarweiniol sydd i’w chael ar y rhyngrwyd, ac sydd ar gael mewn rhai canolfannau lliw haul yn nodi manteision iechyd honedig gwelyau haul a manteision eu defnyddio. Yr oedd hynny’n rhywbeth yr oedd y pwyllgor yn pryderu’n arbennig amdano, a dyna pam mae arnom angen ymgyrch addysg briodol. Yr ydym wedi gwneud yr argymhelliad hwnnw yn y rhaglen Herio’r Haul.

Peter Black opened his remarks by saying that fashion is not always good for you; I would agree with you, Peter, particularly when I look at your ties sometimes. [Laughter.] However, he made an important point that the fashion industry must take some of the blame for promoting tans as something fashionable that we should all enjoy. That is fair enough, but the industry does not make it clear that sunbeds pose a risk to your health, which is unfortunate. He also went on to talk about young people being particularly at risk, and that is why we recommended that young people under the age of 18 need special protection.

Dechreuodd Peter Black ei sylwadau trwy ddweud nad yw ffasiwn bob amser yn dda ichi; byddwn yn cytuno â chi, Peter, yn enwedig pan welaf y teis y byddwch chi’n eu gwisgo weithiau. [Chwerthin.] Fodd bynnag, gwnaeth bwynt pwysig, sef ei bod yn rhaid i’r diwydiant ffasiwn gymryd rhywfaint o’r bai am hyrwyddo lliw haul fel pe bai’n rhywbeth ffasiynol y dylem i gyd ei gael. Mae hynny’n ddigon teg, ond nid yw’r diwydiant yn egluro’n iawn fod gwelyau haul yn peri risg i’ch iechyd, sy’n anffodus. Aeth yn ei flaen hefyd i ddweud bod y risg yn fwy i bobl ifanc yn benodol, a dyna pam yr ydym wedi argymell bod angen amddiffyn pobl ifanc dan 18 oed yn arbennig.

3.50 p.m.

In fact, there was some discussion in the committee about the appropriate age below which unsupervised sunbed use should be banned. We looked at whether the ages of 16 or 18 were appropriate and the evidence that we took from clinicians seemed to suggest that the skin is much more mature at the age of 18, generally, than at 16 and, therefore, that was the age that we plumped for. Like Peter, most members of the committee felt strongly that we do not care about the route by which the Assembly gets the powers to legislate in respect of tanning salons; we just want legislation to come forward very quickly.

Mewn gwirionedd, cafwyd cryn drafodaeth yn y pwyllgor am yr oed priodol i’w bennu wrth wahardd pobl rhag defnyddio gwelyau haul heb oruchwyliaeth. Buom yn ystyried ai 16 neu 18 oed fyddai’n briodol, ac yr oedd y dystiolaeth a gafwyd gan glinigwyr fel pe bai’n awgrymu bod y croen, at ei gilydd, lawer yn fwy aeddfed pan fydd unigolyn yn 18 oed na phan fydd yn 16 oed, ac felly dyna’r oedran a ddewiswyd. Yr oedd y rhan fwyaf o aelodau’r pwyllgor, fel Peter, yn teimlo’n gryf na ddylem boeni sut y caiff y Cynulliad y pwerau i ddeddfu ynghylch salonau lliw haul; yr hyn sy’n bwysig yw cael deddfwriaeth cyn gynted ag sy’n bosibl.

To refer briefly to Ann Jones’s contribution, she is right that there was unanimous support on a cross-party basis in the committee. The evidence from the Sunbed Association was

I gyfeirio’n fyr at gyfraniad Ann Jones, mae’n iawn dweud bod cefnogaeth unfrydol ar draws y pleidiau yn y pwyllgor. Yr oedd y dystiolaeth gan y Gymdeithas Gwelyau Haul

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pretty flimsy, to be honest, in terms of its corroboration by other sources. We need to ensure that the legislation that comes forward is clear that, when it talks about supervision, it means on-site supervision for the whole time that the salon is open and operating. I did not watch the programme featuring Nicola Roberts from Girls Aloud, although I am a fan of the band.

yn ddigon bregus, a dweud y gwir, o ran faint o ffynonellau eraill a oedd yn ei hategu. Mae angen inni sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth a gyflwynir yn glir, pan fydd yn sôn am oruchwyliaeth, ei bod yn golygu goruchwyliaeth ar y safle drwy gydol yr amser pan fydd y salon ar agor ac yn gweithredu. Ni wyliais y rhaglen gyda Nicola Roberts a Girls Aloud, er fy mod yn hoff o’r band.

Nerys Evans confessed to us that she is a former user of sunbeds. Nerys is very intelligent, yet she was still not able to take on board those messages about the health risks associated with them. It is important that we admit that we have not taken this issue as seriously as we ought to in the past. She was right to say that more work needs to be done on where tanning beds and tanning salons are located, because they are often in other commercial premises, where they are not the main source of income, and the tanning salon or booth is at the back of a shop and so on. The home use of sunbeds also concerned committee members.

Cyfaddefodd Nerys Evans ei bod wedi defnyddio gwelyau haul o’r blaen. Mae Nerys yn ddeallus iawn, ac eto nid oedd hi’n gallu amgyffred y negeseuon hynny am y risgiau iechyd sy’n gysylltiedig â hwy. Mae’n bwysig inni gyfaddef nad ydym wedi cymryd y mater hwn yn ddigon o ddifrif yn y gorffennol. Yr oedd yn iawn dweud bod angen inni wneud rhagor o waith i weld ble mae gwelyau lliw haul a salonau lliw haul wedi eu lleoli, oherwydd maent yn aml mewn mannau masnachol eraill, lle nid y gwelyau haul yw’r brif ffynhonnell incwm, a lle mae’r salon neu’r bwth lliw haul yng nghefn y siop, ac yn y blaen. Yr oedd yr arfer o ddefnyddio gwelyau haul yn y cartref hefyd yn peri pryder i’r aelodau.

Finally, I will refer briefly to the Minister’s comments. We are grateful to her for recognising the importance of bringing legislation forward on this. I listened carefully to her references to Julie Morgan’s private Members’ Bill. As a committee, we would encourage you not simply to sit and wait while that makes progress through the House of Commons, but to begin the process of looking for legislative levers, no matter where they might lie, whether through the LCO process or by issuing guidance or regulations—for example, the special treatments regulations that might be available on the licensing front—in order to get the message out as soon as possible that tanning salons have health risks. We do not want to ban them outright, but we want people to make informed choices when they use them. We cannot afford to delay, and I encourage the Minister to pursue that vigorously.

I orffen, cyfeiriaf yn fyr at sylwadau’r Gweinidog. Yr ydym yn ddiolchgar iddi am gydnabod pwysigrwydd cyflwyno deddfwriaeth ynghylch y mater hwn. Gwrandewais yn astud ar ei chyfeiriadau at Fesur Aelod Preifat Julie Morgan. Byddem ni fel pwyllgor yn eich annog i beidio ag eistedd yn ôl ac aros tra bydd y Mesur hwnnw’n mynd trwy Dŷ’r Cyffredin, ond yn eich annog i ddechrau ar y broses o geisio grymoedd deddfwriaethol, trwy ba bynnag fodd, naill ai trwy’r broses Gorchymyn cymhwysedd deddfwriaethol neu trwy roi arweiniad neu reoliadau—er enghraifft, y rheoliadau triniaethau arbennig a allai fod ar gael o safbwynt trwyddedu—er mwyn cyfleu’r neges cyn gynted ag y bo modd fod risgiau iechyd yn gysylltiedig â salonau lliw haul. Nid ydym am eu gwahardd yn llwyr, ond yr ydym am i bobl wneud dewisiadau cytbwys pan fyddant yn eu defnyddio. Ni allwn fforddio oedi, ac anogaf y Gweinidog i fynd ynglŷn â hynny’n egnïol.

Y Llywydd: Diolch yn fawr i’r Cadeirydd am ymateb i’r ddadl. Y cynnig yw ein bod

The Presiding Officer: I thank the Chair for responding to the debate. The proposal is that

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yn nodi adroddiad y pwyllgor. Nid wyf yn clywed unrhyw gwrthwynebiad, felly yr wyf yn datgan, yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog Rhif 7.35, bod y cynnig wedi ei dderbyn.

we note the committee’s report. I do not hear any objections, therefore, I declare that, in accordance with Standing Order No. 7.35, the motion is agreed.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.Motion agreed.

Daeth y Dirprwy Lywydd (Rosemary Butler) i’r Gadair am 3.53 p.m.The Deputy Presiding Officer (Rosemary Butler) took the Chair at 3.53 p.m.

Dadl y Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Debate

Fferyllfeydd CymunedolCommunity Pharmacies

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Peter Black.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt a gwelliannau 2 a 3 yn enw Peter Black.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I move that Andrew R.T. Davies: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. recognises that community pharmacies assist in wide-scale prevention of health problems and in extensive management of chronic conditions, as well as in tackling ill health;

1. yn cydnabod bod fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn cynorthwyo i atal problemau iechyd ar raddfa eang a rheoli cyflyrau cronig yn sylweddol, yn ogystal â mynd i’r afael ag afiechyd;

2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to engage community pharmacies in Wales in tackling the severe wastage of medicines and to re-invest any resulting savings into a range of community pharmacy preventative care services;

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gynnwys fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghymru wrth fynd i’r afael â’r broblem ddifrifol o wastraffu meddyginiaethau ac i ail-fuddsoddi unrhyw arbedion sy’n deillio o hynny mewn ystod o wasanaethau gofal ataliol mewn fferyllfeydd cymunedol;

3. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to publish the final report of the Minister’s pharmacy task and finish group as soon as possible. (NDM4401)

3. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gyhoeddi adroddiad terfynol grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen y Gweinidog ar fferylliaeth cyn gynted â phosibl. (NDM4401)

It is a bit like Groundhog Day today, with all the health debates that are before us, but it is a real pleasure to move this motion on community pharmacies, particularly because of the timeliness of this debate, reflecting the Minister’s commissioning, last year, of the task and finish group, the scoping exercises and the previous debates on this subject. Our motion today calls on the Welsh Assembly

Mae heddiw’n ddigon tebyg i Groundhog Day, gyda’r holl ddadleuon ynghylch iechyd sydd ger ein bron, ond pleser pur yw cael cynnig y cynnig hwn ynglŷn â fferyllfeydd cymunedol, yn enwedig oherwydd amseroldeb y ddadl hon. Mae’n adlewyrchu’r ffaith fod y Gweinidog wedi comisiynu grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen y llynedd, yr ymarferion cwmpasu a’r dadleuon blaenorol am y pwnc

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Government to recognise the critical role that community pharmacies can play in managing chronic conditions. It also asks the Welsh Assembly Government to work with pharmacies to deal with medicine wastage and to ensure that the money that is saved from reducing medicine wastage is reinvested in preventative measures that the health community can engage with for the good of the general population, so that we have a truly robust preventative agenda in Wales before we face too serious a situation with our twenty-first-century lifestyle issues of obesity, diabetes and all the other ancillary conditions. It also calls on the Minister to make available, at her earliest convenience, the task and finish group’s recommendations, which have been due for some two to three months. They were due in November and I am led to believe that they are still in draft form. The recommendations would be beneficial to all parties when considering our direction of travel, given the experience in England with the White Paper and the Scottish report on the development of community pharmacies.

hwn. Mae ein cynnig heddiw’n galw ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad i gydnabod y rôl hollbwysig a all fod gan fferyllfeydd cymunedol wrth ran rheoli cyflyrau cronig. Mae hefyd yn gofyn i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad weithio gyda fferyllfeydd i ymdrin â’r modd y mae meddyginiaethau’n cael eu gwastraffu, ac i sicrhau bod yr arian a arbedir wrth leihau faint o feddyginiaethau sy’n cael eu gwastraffu yn cael ei ailfuddsoddi mewn mesurau atalaliol y gall pawb ym maes iechyd ymwneud â hwy er budd y boblogaeth gyffredinol. Wedyn bydd gennym agenda ataliol wirioneddol gadarn yng Nghymru cyn inni wynebu sefyllfa rhy ddifrifol gyda’r problemau sy’n deillio o’n ffordd o fyw yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, sef gordewdra, diabetes a’r holl gyflyrau cysylltiedig eraill. Mae hefyd yn galw ar y Gweinidog i ddarparu, cyn gynted â phosibl, argymhellion y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen yr ydym yn eu disgwyl ers rhyw ddau neu dri mis. Yr oeddem yn disgwyl eu cael ym mis Tachwedd, a deallaf eu bod yn parhau’n argymhellion drafft. Byddai’r argymhellion o fudd i bawb wrth ystyried i ba gyfeiriad yr ydym yn mynd, o gofio’r profiad a gafwyd gyda’r Papur Gwyn yn Lloegr a’r adroddiad yn yr Alban ar ddatblygu fferyllfeydd cymunedol.

I will deal with the amendments to the motion that are before the Assembly today. We are unfortunately unable to accept the Government’s amendment 1 because it seeks the ability to delete the ring fence around any savings that might be accrued through the more efficient use of medicines and the work done with pharmacists. That ring fence would ensure that those savings could be used to finance public health messages and initiatives, preventing them from being taken into other budget lines. We believe that this is a critical component of the motion, which was reinforced today in the briefing that community pharmacists afforded Members and their researchers in the Senedd. It was a briefing that many Members and researchers who attended found very useful.

Hoffwn ymdrin â’r gwelliannau yn y cynnig sydd gerbron y Cynulliad heddiw. Yn anffodus, ni allwn dderbyn gwelliant 1 gan y Llywodraeth, oherwydd mae’n ceisio’r gallu i beidio â neilltuo dim arbedion y gellid eu cael o ddefnyddio meddyginiaethau’n fwy effeithlon a thrwy’r gwaith a wneir gyda fferyllwyr. Byddai’r drefn neilltuo’n sicrhau y gellid defnyddio’r arbedion hynny i ariannu negeseuon a mentrau ym maes iechyd y cyhoedd, ac atal yr arbedion rhag cael eu symud i linellau eraill yn y gyllideb. Credwn fod hynny’n elfen hollbwysig yn y cynnig, ac atgyfnerthwyd hynny heddiw yn y sesiwn wybodaeth gan fferyllwyr cymunedol i Aelodau a’u hymchwilwyr yn y Senedd. Yr oedd yn sesiwn ddefnyddiol iawn ym marn nifer o’r Aelodau a’r ymchwilwyr a oedd yno.

We support the Liberal Democrat amendments, amendments 2 and 3, which in essence seem to correlate with our motion. This is particularly so in terms of increasing

Yr ydym yn cefnogi gwelliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol, sef gwelliannau 2 a 3, sydd fel pe baent yn cyd-fynd yn y bôn â’n cynnig ni. Mae hynny’n arbennig o wir o

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the accessibility of medicines and the advice that community pharmacists can provide to support the primary sector to develop community solutions for many of the conditions that can be treated in an environment that many patients or the customers of pharmacists would prefer. In particular, this complements developments in the rural health plan. Therefore, we accept the two amendments tabled in the name of Peter Black.

ran gwneud meddyginiaethau’n fwy cyfleus a’r cyngor y gall fferyllwyr cymunedol ei roi i gynorthwyo’r sector gofal sylfaenol i ddatblygu atebion cymunedol i lawer o’r cyflyrau y gellir eu trin mewn amgylchedd y byddai llawer o gleifion neu gwsmeriaid fferyllwyr yn ei ffafrio. Yn anad dim, mae hynny’n ategu datblygiadau yn y cynllun iechyd gwledig. Felly, yr ydym yn derbyn y ddau welliant a gyflwynwyd yn enw Peter Black.

There are many elements to today’s debate. In researching them, it seemed increasingly obvious that, if adapted within a strategic and corporate approach, they could complement many of the initiatives that the Assembly Government and local health boards have talked about at length, but that have resulted in a patchwork delivery of services that could be provided by using community pharmacies. I will address the issue of the waste of medicines, for example. Very often, people have medicines made available to them on prescription, but they do not finish through the course of treatment that they are due to undertake, possibly because of a lack of understanding or because they have not received sound advice at the point of dispensation. It is critical that, in being able to provide a joined-up approach, we can save £56 million a year through reducing the waste of medicines in the Welsh NHS. This is a figure that has been arrived at by the Wales Audit Office—a snapshot figure representing what it believes is wasted annually in the Welsh NHS. There will always be waste, but we must always try to make sure that we do our best to curtail the propensity of money to seep out from health solutions.

Mae nifer o elfennau yn y ddadl heddiw. Wrth ymchwilio iddynt, ymddangosai’n fwyfwy amlwg y gallent, pe caent eu haddasu mewn dull gweithredu strategol a chorfforaethol, ategu nifer o’r mentrau y mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad a byrddau iechyd lleol wedi bod yn siarad yn hir amdanynt, ond sydd wedi arwain at ddarparu gwasanaethau anghyson a allai gael eu darparu drwy ddefnyddio fferyllfeydd cymunedol. Hoffwn ymdrin â phroblem gwastraffu meddyginiaethau, er enghraifft. Yn aml iawn, bydd pobl yn cael meddyginiaethau ar bresgripsiwn, ond ni fyddant yn gorffen cwrs y driniaeth y maent i’w dilyn, oherwydd diffyg dealltwriaeth efallai, neu oherwydd nad ydynt wedi cael cyngor cadarn lle darparwyd y feddyginiaeth. O allu cynnig dull gweithredu cydgysylltiedig, mae’n hanfodol y gallwn arbed £56 miliwn y flwyddyn drwy leihau gwastraffu meddyginiaethau yn y GIG yng Nghymru. Ffigur gan Swyddfa Archwilio Cymru yw hwn—sy’n rhoi darlun sydyn inni o’r hyn a gred y Swyddfa Archwilio sy’n cael ei wastraffu yn y GIG yng Nghymru bob blwyddyn. Bydd gwastraffu’n digwydd beth bynnag, ond rhaid inni geisio sicrhau bob amser ein bod yn gwneud ein gorau i leihau’r holl arian sy’n diflannu o atebion i broblemau iechyd.

As shown in this morning’s briefing, pharmacists have identified how they can play an important role in assessing and addressing the needs of patients and providing them with information. As was identified during the presentation that community pharmacists gave in the Assembly in November, the whole suite of options available—including diabetes checks, blood pressure checks, body mass index checks and the general advice that can be

Fel y dangoswyd yn y sesiwn wybodaeth y bore yma, mae fferyllwyr wedi nodi sut y gallant gyflawni rôl bwysig wrth asesu anghenion cleifion, mynd i’r afael â’u hanghenion, a rhoi gwybodaeth iddynt. Fel y nodwyd yn ystod y cyflwyniad gan fferyllwyr cymunedol yn y Cynulliad ym mis Tachwedd, gall yr holl amrywiaeth o ddewisiadau sydd ar gael—gan gynnwys archwiliadau diabetes, archwiliadau pwysedd gwaed, archwiliadau mynegai màs y corff, a’r

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given to patients—can help patients and customers use the services that are available to them better. If you are looking at developing a more community-focused model of healthcare, moving patients from GP surgeries to ease the pressure, surely this is the correct way to address it. Ultimately, the GP will be the king or queen in all of this, but they can benefit from the help and support of a community pharmacist. The expertise that they can provide could complement and facilitate the greater availability of GP services to people who need them.

cyngor cyffredinol y gellir ei roi i gleifion—helpu cleifion a chwsmeriaid i ddefnyddio’r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael iddynt yn well. Os ydych yn ystyried datblygu model gofal iechyd sy’n canolbwyntio’n fwy ar y gymuned, gan symud cleifion o feddygfeydd meddygon teulu i leihau’r pwysau, rhaid mai’r dyma’r ffordd gywir i fynd i’r afael â hynny. Yn y pen draw, y meddygon teulu a fydd â’r gair olaf yn hyn i gyd, ond gallant elwa o help a chefnogaeth fferyllydd cymunedol. Gallai’r arbenigedd y gallant ei ddarparu ategu a hwyluso’r broses o sicrhau bod gwasanaethau meddygon teulu ar gael yn fwy helaeth i bobl y mae arnynt eu hangen.

We must also address the ability to make sure that there is consistency in the commissioning of services. We have seen many good examples of the commissioning of services by local health boards. In Swansea, for example, services related to sexual health advice, diabetes checks and other aspects of healthcare are commissioned on a regular basis by the local health board. If you come to Cardiff, sadly, that has not been the case historically. Surely, that shows inconsistency in the delivery of services, and that maybe the aspiration at the centre is not feeding through to the local health boards so that they commission these services. That is why we believe that it is vital that the recommendations of the task and finish group report are made available in final form, so that we have the direction of travel to move forward.

Rhaid inni fynd i’r afael hefyd â’r gallu i sicrhau bod cysondeb mewn gwaith comisiynu gwasanaethau. Gwelsom nifer o enghreifftiau da o waith comisiynu gwasanaethau gan fyrddau iechyd lleol. Yn Abertawe, er enghraifft, caiff gwasanaethau’n ymwneud â chyngor ar iechyd rhyw, archwiliadau diabetes ac agweddau eraill ar ofal iechyd eu comisiynu’n rheolaidd gan y bwrdd iechyd lleol. O edrych ar Gaerdydd, nid yw hynny wedi bod yn wir yn y gorffennol, yn anffodus. Rhaid bod hynny’n dangos anghysondeb yn y modd y caiff gwasanaethau eu darparu, ac efallai nad yw’r dyhead yn y canol yn cyrraedd y byrddau iechyd lleol ac yn peri iddynt gomisiynu’r gwasanaethau hyn. Dyna pam y credwn ei bod yn hanfodol darparu argymhellion adroddiad y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen yn eu ffurf derfynol, er mwyn inni wybod i ba gyfeiriad i symud ymlaen.

There is also the important role that community pharmacies can play in delivering the ‘One Wales’ commitment on drop-in centres and nurse prescribers, and facilitating the role that those types of facilities can play in a community to ensure that people can use a service that they feel at ease with.

Yn ogystal, mae’r rôl bwysig y gall fferyllfeydd cymunedol ei chyflawni wrth sicrhau yr ymrwymiad yn ‘Cymru’n Un’ ar ganolfannau galw heibio a nyrsys-ragnodwyr, a hwyluso rôl bosibl y mathau hynny o gyfleusterau mewn cymuned i sicrhau y gall pobl ddefnyddio gwasanaeth y maent yn teimlo’n gyffyrddus gydag ef.

4.00 p.m.

In the twenty-first century, people have hectic lifestyles and they want a service that they can use while going about their daily lives. We fully support the ability to create drop-in centres and nurse prescribers. I would welcome the Minister’s comments on that

Yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain, mae bywydau pobl yn brysur, ac maent am gael gwasanaeth y gallant ei ddefnyddio wrth fyw eu bywyd o ddydd i ddydd. Yr ydym yn cefnogi’n llwyr y gallu i greu canolfannau galw heibio a nyrsys-ragnodwyr. Byddwn yn croesawu

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when she responds to the debate, because there seems to be a lack of progress on that commitment in the ‘One Wales’ agreement. It was another item identified in the briefing that we received this morning. Hopefully, work on it will now gather pace.

sylwadau’r Gweinidog ar hynny wrth iddi ymateb i’r ddadl, oherwydd ymddengys fod diffyg cynnydd gyda’r ymrwymiad hwnnw yng nghytundeb ‘Cymru’n Un’. Yr oedd yn agwedd arall a nodwyd yn y sesiwn wybodaeth a gawsom y bore yma. Gobeithio y bydd gwaith ar yr ymrwymiad hwnnw’n cyflymu’n awr.

We would also like the Government to ensure that any recommendations from the task and finish group are worked through with the local health boards to ensure that the commissioning process takes place. The patchwork nature of delivery is no longer acceptable, given the developments in Scotland and England. It is wrong that, in Wales, you cannot, sadly, have that almost universal service and joined-up sharing of information. The ability of hospitals, GP surgeries and pharmacies to share information is critical when it comes to understanding a patient’s needs and applying expertise. We should be celebrating that we have this opportunity. This year, 100,000 people will make use of the health checks that community pharmacies offer, and that should be celebrated. However, if it is to be effective, information has to be shared so that the pharmacist has the whole picture and can give the best advice possible. That is, surely, a logical progression when it comes having a joined-up approach in healthcare.

Yn ogystal, byddem yn hoffi pe bai’r Llywodraeth yn sicrhau bod unrhyw argymhellion gan y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen yn cael eu hystyried gyda’r byrddau iechyd lleol er mwyn sicrhau bod y broses gomisiynu’n digwydd. Nid yw’r modd anghyson y caiff gwasanaethau eu darparu yn dderbyniol mwyach, o gofio’r datblygiadau yn yr Alban a Lloegr. Mae’n anghywir na allwch yng Nghymru, yn anffodus, gael gwasanaeth sydd bron yn gyffredinol a dull cydgysylltiedig o rannu gwybodaeth. Mae gallu ysbytai, meddygfeydd meddygon teulu a fferyllfeydd i rannu gwybodaeth yn hollbwysig pan ddaw’n fater o ddeall anghenion claf a defnyddio arbenigedd. Dylem fod yn dathlu’r ffaith fod gennym y cyfle hwn. Eleni bydd 100,000 o bobl yn defnyddio’r archwiliadau iechyd a gynigir gan fferyllfeydd cymunedol, a dylid dathlu hynny. Fodd bynnag, os yw hyn i fod yn effeithiol, rhaid rhannu gwybodaeth fel y gall y fferyllydd gael y darlun cyflawn a rhoi’r cyngor gorau posibl. Rhaid bod hynny’n gam rhesymegol pan ddaw’n fater o gael dull gweithredu cydgysylltiedig mewn gofal iechyd.

With those few thoughts, I welcome Members’ contributions to this debate today, but, above all, I welcome the commitment that the Minister has shown. She has shown her undoubted commitment in establishing the task and finish group, and in other debates, to how this can be taken forward in the next 12 to 18 months to progress the community pharmacy network. It should be remembered that no-one in Wales lives more than 20 minutes from a pharmacy, and, given that network coverage, one can see the important role that pharmacies can play in any future healthcare services that we wish to develop.

Gyda’r ychydig sylwadau hynny, croesawaf gyfraniadau’r Aelodau i’r ddadl hon heddiw, ond yn anad dim, croesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog. Wrth sefydlu’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen, ac mewn dadleuon eraill, mae wedi dangos ei hymrwymiad digamsyniol i’r modd y gellir symud y mater hwn ymlaen yn ystod y 12 i’r 18 mis nesaf er mwyn hybu’r rhwydwaith fferylliaeth gymunedol. Dylid cofio nad oes neb yng Nghymru yn byw dros 20 munud i ffwrdd o fferyllfa, ac o gofio’r ffaith honno am y rhwydwaith, gellir gweld y rôl bwysig a all fod i fferyllfeydd mewn unrhyw wasanaethau gofal iechyd y dymunwn eu datblygu yn y dyfodol.

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The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): I move amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt. In point 2 delete all after ‘medicines’.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Cynigiaf welliant 1 yn enw Jane Hutt. Ym mhwynt 2 dileu popeth ar ôl ‘meddyginiaethau’.

Peter Black: I move the following amendments in my name. Amendment 2: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Peter Black: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn fy enw i. Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to fully implement the pharmacy recommendations of the rural health plan to ensure equitable access to medicines and pharmacy services around Wales.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i weithredu’n llawn yr argymhellion ynghylch fferylliaeth yn y cynllun iechyd gwledig i sicrhau mynediad teg at wasanaethau fferylliaeth a meddyginiaethau ledled Cymru.

Amendment 3: add as a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to work with health boards to make greater use of pharmacist prescribers to reduce unnecessary GP appointments and make the best use of pharmacy training.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i weithio gyda’r byrddau iechyd i wneud mwy o ddefnydd o fferyllwyr-ragnodwyr i leihau apwyntiadau diangen gyda meddygon teulu a gwneud y defnydd gorau o hyfforddiant fferylliaeth.

I thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this motion forward for debate today. The role of community pharmacists in delivering the Assembly’s health agenda is vital. In terms of getting services out into the community, and emphasising the use of primary care, community pharmacies are an important supplement. I visited the community pharmacy that has recently opened at Strawberry Place in Morriston Hospital, which is an integral part of the primary care centre that is being developed there, and it not only sells the medicines and goods that you would expect to find in a chemist, but also offers other services to benefit people’s health and to enable them to access support and help that they would not otherwise be able to access.

Diolch i’r Ceidwadwyr Cymreig am gyflwyno’r cynnig hwn ar gyfer dadl heddiw. Mae rôl fferyllwyr cymunedol wrth wireddu agenda iechyd y Cynulliad yn hanfodol. Mae fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn gyfleusterau ychwanegol pwysig i fynd â gwasanaethau i’r gymuned a phwysleisio’r modd y dylid defnyddio gofal sylfaenol. Ymwelais â’r fferyllfa gymunedol sydd newydd agor yn Strawberry Place yn Ysbyty Treforys, sy’n rhan annatod o’r ganolfan gofal sylfaenol a ddatblygir yno, ac yn ogystal â gwerthu’r meddyginiaethau a’r nwyddau y byddech yn disgwyl eu gweld mewn fferyllfa, mae hefyd yn cynnig gwasanaethau eraill i wella iechyd pobl a’u galluogi i gael cefnogaeth a help na fyddai modd iddynt eu cael fel arall.

Our amendments, amendments 2 and 3, are key to this agenda. I will start with amendment 3, on pharmacist prescribers. I recently visited a pharmacist prescriber in Swansea, who also offers a valuable substance misuse advice and support service. That service is provided in his shop. However, unfortunately, the local health board has not made full use of his training, so he cannot supplement that work by

Mae ein gwelliannau ni, sef gwelliannau 2 a 3, yn allweddol i’r agenda hon. Hoffwn ddechrau gyda gwelliant 3, am fferyllwyr-ragnodwyr. Yn ddiweddar ymwelais â fferyllydd-ragnodwr yn Abertawe, sydd hefyd yn cynnig gwasanaeth cynghori a chefnogi gwerthfawr i bobl sy’n camddefnyddio sylweddau. Caiff y gwasanaeth hwnnw ei ddarparu yn ei siop. Yn anffodus, fodd bynnag, nid yw’r bwrdd

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prescribing the methadone and other supplements necessary to help the addicts who come to him for assistance in getting off drugs and other substances. The use of pharmacists that have been trained in prescribing is massively under-developed in Wales when it comes to substance misuse services. I would hope that the Minister, as a result of this debate, will take up with the local health board the issue of how those skills can be used to deliver improved primary care services. If you have a substance misuse problem you could wait up to 12 months for treatment, unless you commit a crime, in which case you will get treatment the next day. That is not the sort of approach that we would want to take, and community pharmacists, and prescribing pharmacists in particular, could assist with the delivery of these services.

iechyd lleol wedi defnyddio’i hyfforddiant i’r eithaf, ac felly ni all ychwanegu at y gwaith hwnnw drwy ragnodi’r methadon a’r triniaethau ychwanegol eraill sy’n angenrheidiol i helpu pobl sy’n gaeth i gyffuriau a sylweddau eraill, ac sy’n dod ato am gymorth, i roi’r gorau i’w defnyddio. Mae diffyg datblygu enbyd yng Nghymru yn y modd y caiff fferyllwyr sydd wedi’u hyfforddi i ragnodi eu defnyddio mewn gwasanaethau camddefnyddio sylweddau. Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog, o ganlyniad i’r ddadl hon, yn tynnu sylw’r bwrdd iechyd lleol at modd y gellir defnyddio’r sgiliau hynny i ddarparu gwell gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol. Os oes gennych broblem camddefnyddio sylweddau, gallech orfod aros hyd at 12 mis am driniaeth, oni bai eich bod yn cyflawni trosedd, oherwydd wedyn byddech yn cael triniaeth drannoeth. Nid dyna’r math o ddull y byddem am ei ddefnyddio, a gallai fferyllwyr cymunedol, a fferyllwyr-ragnodwyr yn enwedig, helpu darparu’r gwasanaethau hyn.

On consistency of support, Andrew R.T. Davies mentioned sexual health advice, which is important. Look at the availability of the morning after pill around Wales, for example: if you go to Boots in Neath you will pay £26.50 for it, but at a chemist in Swansea or nearby you may find that you do not have to pay for it. That does not send out the right sort of message to young people. We do not want to encourage young people to have unprotected sex, but if they do have it we want to ensure that they do not have unwanted children who would add to their problems, and those of society, in the future. Areas such as Bridgend have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Wales, so we need to ensure that there is consistency in the availability of free contraceptive advice and that the morning-after pill is consistently available, preferably free of charge, to young people.

O ran cysondeb cymorth, soniodd Andrew R.T. Davies am gyngor ar iechyd rhyw, sy’n bwysig. Edrychwch ar y ffordd mae’r bilsen drannoeth ar gael o amgylch Cymru, er enghraifft: o fynd i Boots yng Nghastell-nedd rhaid ichi £26.50 amdani, ond mewn fferyllfa yn Abertawe neu’r cyffiniau gallech weld nad oes yn rhaid ichi dalu amdani. Nid yw hynny’n cyfleu’r neges gywir i bobl ifanc. Nid ydym am annog pobl ifanc i gael rhyw heb ddiogelwch, ond os byddant yn gwneud hynny, yr ydym am sicrhau na fyddant yn cael plant nad ydynt yn eu dymuno ac a fyddai’n ychwanegu at eu problemau, a phroblemau cymdeithas, yn y dyfodol. Mewn ardaloedd megis Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr mae’r cyfraddau uchaf o feichiogrwydd ymysg merched ifanc yn eu harddegau yng Nghymru, felly, mae angen inni sicrhau bod cysondeb yn y modd y gellir cael cyngor yn rhad ac am ddim ar atal cenhedlu, a sicrhau bod y bilsen drannoeth ar gael yn gyson i bobl ifanc, yn rhad ac am ddim, o ddewis.

We refer in amendment 2 to the rural health plan, which is important in its comparison of a pharmacy to a village shop. That is an appropriate comparison, and it would be fantastic to have a pharmacy in every community, although that is unlikely.

Yng ngwelliant 2, cyfeiriwn at y cynllun iechyd gwledig, sy’n bwysig o gymharu fferyllfa â siop bentref. Mae’r gymhariaeth honno’n un briodol, a byddai’n wych cael fferyllfa ym mhob cymuned, er bod hynny’n anhebygol. Fodd bynnag, mewn cymunedau

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However, in communities where there are pharmacies, we should ensure that the staff can provide as wide a range of services as possible to make up for any lack of provision locally. We also need to guard against inappropriate competition with such pharmacies. In remote rural areas, the idea of a general practitioner being able to sell medicine is useful, but in a town such as Welshpool or Machynlleth that would be inappropriate, because the GP would be setting up in competition to pharmacies. Also, when you consider that every prescription by a GP costs the Welsh NHS £2 more than if it were prescribed by a pharmacist, you can see the burden on the health service.

lle mae fferyllfeydd, dylem sicrhau y gall y staff ddarparu ystod mor eang ag sy’n bosibl o wasanaethau i wneud iawn am unrhyw ddiffyg darpariaeth yn lleol. Yn ogystal, mae angen inni ymochel rhag cystadlu’n amhriodol â fferyllfeydd o’r fath. Mewn ardaloedd gwledig anghysbell, mae’r syniad o gael meddyg teulu sy’n gallu gwerthu meddyginiaeth yn ddefnyddiol, ond mewn tref megis y Trallwng neu Fachynlleth, byddai hynny’n amhriodol, oherwydd byddai’r meddyg teulu’n cystadlu â fferyllfeydd. Yn ogystal, o ystyried bod pob presgripsiwn gan feddyg teulu yn costio £2 yn fwy i’r GIG yng Nghymru na phe bai’n cael roi gan fferyllydd, gallwch weld y baich sydd ar y gwasanaeth iechyd.

I hope that the Minister will support amendment 2, because it is important that we get things right in rural areas. It is also important to make full use of the pharmacists’ skills, particularly in prescribing.

Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog yn cefnogi gwelliant 2, oherwydd mae’n bwysig inni gael pethau’n iawn mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae hefyd yn bwysig defnyddio sgiliau fferyllwyr i’r eithaf, yn enwedig wrth rhagnodi.

Nick Ramsay: I agree with many of the sentiments that Peter Black has just expressed. Our motion recognises the important contribution of community pharmacies to tackling ill health, and we call on the Government to tackle the wastage of medicines and to reinvest any savings in preventative care services. I will support the Liberal Democrat’s amendment 2, on the rural health plan.

Nick Ramsay: Cytunaf â llawer o’r teimladau y mae Peter Black newydd eu mynegi. Mae ein cynnig yn cydnabod cyfraniad pwysig fferyllfeydd cymunedol wrth fynd i’r afael ag afiechyd, a galwn ar y Llywodraeth i fynd i’r afael â phroblem gwastraffu meddyginiaethau, ac ailfuddsoddi unrhyw arian a arbedir mewn gwasanaethau gofal ataliol. Byddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant 2 gan y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol ar y cynllun iechyd gwledig.

This debate should be seen in the context of concerns that we have raised in the past about the rural health plan, which proudly proclaims that it is to improve integrated service delivery across Wales—a noble and fair objective. In the first few pages—I think that it is on page 4—there is a reference to the role of the pharmacy, and it is stated, in a section that recognises that pharmacies are a vital element of health service provision in rural areas, that ‘more can be done’. I think that we are all in agreement across the Chamber that more could be done to support community pharmacies, particularly in rural areas.

Dylid ystyried y ddadl hon yng nghyd-destun pryderon yr ydym wedi’u mynegi yn y gorffennol am y cynllun iechyd gwledig. Mae hwnnw’n dweud yn falch mai ei ddiben yw gwella darparu gwasanaethau integredig ar draws Cymru—sy’n amcan ardderchog a theg. Ar yr ychydig dudalennau cyntaf—ar dudalen 4, mi gredaf—cyfeirir at rôl y fferyllfa, a nodir, mewn adran sy’n cydnabod bod fferyllfeydd yn elfen hanfodol wrth ddarparu gwasanaethau iechyd mewn ardaloedd gwledig, y ‘gellir gwneud mwy’. Credaf ein bod i gyd ar draws y Siambr yn cytuno y gellid gwneud mwy i gefnogi fferyllfeydd cymunedol, yn enwedig mewn ardaloedd gwledig.

It is more than two and a half years since the Mae dros ddwy flynedd a hanner wedi mynd

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‘One Wales’ commitment to develop pharmacy-based NHS drop-in centres, and there are concerns that it is not being achieved. There has been no change in the terms of service commissioned from the NHS, and, as we have heard, the final report of the task group, which is already overdue, will mean nothing unless the Assembly Government acts on the recommendations that have been made. We are at a critical point in decisions regarding the procurement of condition management. One of the great merits of community pharmacies is that they are close to the people whom they serve, and are often the most frequently accessed link to a knowledgeable health professional. They are therefore well placed to provide information about medical conditions, lifestyle choices and medicine management. That brings me to the point that community pharmacies have the capacity for a high entrepreneurial orientation, which the NHS can capitalise on to a greater extent. It has done so in some respects, but I think that it can do it to a greater extent in future. We can use pharmacists’ resourcefulness and imagination to invest and reinvest in new ways of service provision.

heibio ers ymrwymiad ‘Cymru’n Un’ i ddatblygu canolfannau galw heibio gan y GIG mewn fferyllfeydd, ac mae pobl yn pryderu nad yw’n cael ei gyflawni. Nid yw telerau’r gwasanaeth a gomisiynir gan y GIG wedi newid o gwbl ac, fel y clywsom, ni fydd adroddiad terfynol y grŵp gorchwyl, sydd eisoes yn hwyr yn ymddangos, yn golygu dim oni bai bod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn gweithredu ar yr argymhellion a wnaed. Yr ydym wedi cyrraedd pwynt hollbwysig o ran penderfyniadau ar gaffael dulliau rheoli cyflyrau. Un o rinweddau mawr fferyllfeydd cymunedol yw eu bod yn agos at y bobl y maent yn eu gwasanaethu, ac mai hwy yw’r cyswllt amlaf pobl â gweithiwr iechyd proffesiynol deallus. Felly, maent mewn sefyllfa dda i ddarparu gwybodaeth am gyflyrau meddygol, dewisiadau ffordd o fyw, a gwaith rheoli meddyginiaethau. Daw hynny â mi at y pwynt bod gan fferyllfeydd cymunedol y gallu i fod yn eithriadol o entrepreneuraidd, sy’n rhywbeth y gall y GIG fanteisio’n fwy helaeth arno. Mae wedi gwneud hynny mewn ambell ffordd, ond credaf y gall wneud hynny i raddau pellach yn y dyfodol. Gallwn ddefnyddio dychymyg a dyfeisgarwch fferyllwyr i fuddsoddi ac ailfuddsoddi mewn ffyrdd newydd o ddarparu gwasanaethau.

4.10 p.m.

We have heard some startling statistics about medicine wastage. Andrew R.T. Davies, in his opening remarks, stated that you will always have a certain amount of waste. We could be pious and say that we must eliminate all waste, but that is clearly impossible. However, when you look at the rates of waste in the NHS, up to £56 million, 10 per cent of the annual medicines budget—a huge amount—is going to waste in patients returning unused medicines. Those medicines cannot be reused and must be incinerated, with clear consequences.

Clywsom rai ystadegau syfrdanol am wastraffu meddyginiaethau. Yn ei sylwadau agoriadol dywedodd Andrew R.T. Davies y bydd rhywfaint o wastraffu beth bynnag. Gallem fod yn hunan-gyfiawn a dweud ei bod yn rhaid inni ddileu pob achos o wastraffu, ond mae’n amlwg y byddai hynny’n amhosibl. Fodd bynnag, o edrych ar y cyfraddau gwastraffu yn y GIG, caiff hyd at £56 miliwn, sef 10 y cant o’r gyllideb flynyddol ar gyfer meddyginiaethau—sy’n swm anferthol—ei wastraffu wrth i gleifion ddod â meddyginiaethau’n ôl sydd heb eu defnyddio. Ni ellir ailddefnyddio’r meddyginiaethau hynny, a rhaid eu llosgi, ac mae canlyniadau hynny’n glir.

I hope that the Minister in her response will detail measures that could be taken to address this wastage of medicine. I am disappointed that, despite repeated calls for it, the final report of the task and finish group is still

Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog, yn ei hymateb, yn manylu ar gamau y gellid eu cymryd i fynd i’r afael â’r gwastraffu meddyginiaethau hyn. Er gwaethaf galwadau mynych amdano, yr wyf yn siomedig mai ar

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published in draft form only. That is why our motion calls, among other things, for that group’s final recommendations to be published in full. It also calls for the priorities of the strategic delivery group to be clarified. To return to Andrew R.T. Davies’s opening remarks, it is important that we not only have the final report of that task and finish group, but that we also have a liaison between you, Minister, and the new, heavily-burdened, local health boards on how those recommendations can best be implemented. We should not just push these recommendations out and expect local health boards to take decisions on them; they need some proper guidance.

ffurf drafft yn unig y mae adroddiad terfynol y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi’i gyhoeddi. Dyna pam mae ein cynnig yn galw, ymhlith pethau eraill, am gyhoeddi argymhellion terfynol y grŵp hwnnw’n llawn. Mae hefyd yn galw ar y Llywodraeth i egluro blaenoriaethau’r grŵp cyflawni strategol. I ddychwelyd at sylwadau agoriadol Andrew R.T. Davies, mae’n bwysig inni nid yn unig gael adroddiad terfynol y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen hwnnw, ond inni hefyd gael trafodaeth rhyngoch chi, Weinidog, a’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd, sydd â llwyth gwaith trwm, am y ffordd orau i weithredu’r argymhellion hynny. Ni ddylem fodloni ar wthio’r argymhellion hyn allan a disgwyl i fyrddau iechyd lleol wneud penderfyniadau yn eu cylch; mae arnynt angen canllawiau priodol.

If we stick to the old-fashioned notion that professionals should work only in predetermined silos, then we will fail in our ambitions. Making better use of pharmacists could save the national health service a significant amount of money and help to relieve the pressure on general practitioners. The average GP surgery consultation lasts 12 minutes and costs about £32, while a 12-minute consultation at a pharmacy would cost £17.

O gadw at y syniad hen ffasiwn y dylai gweithwyr proffesiynol weithio mewn ffordd ynysig benodol yn unig, byddwn yn methu â gwireddu ein huchelgeisiau. Gallai defnyddio fferyllwyr yn well arbed arian sylweddol i’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol, a helpu lleihau’r pwysau ar feddygon teulu. Mae sesiwn ymgynghori mewn meddygfa meddygon teulu yn para 12 munud ar gyfartaledd ac yn costio tua £32, ond byddai sesiwn ymgynghori 12 munud mewn fferyllfa yn costio £17.

To conclude, I welcome this motion and I hope that it is accepted by the Government in the spirit in which it is intended. We did not have a pharmacy in my own village until last year or the year before last, and I know from experience what a valuable asset it is to a community that often sees other services being lost.

I gloi, croesawaf y cynnig hwn, a gobeithio y caiff ei dderbyn gan y Llywodraeth yn yr ysbryd a fwriadwyd. Nid oedd gennym fferyllfa yn fy mhentref i tan y llynedd neu’r flwyddyn flaenorol, a gwn o brofiad ei bod yn adnodd gwerthfawr iawn i gymuned sy’n aml yn gweld colli gwasanaethau eraill.

Brian Gibbons: For almost a generation, the full range of skills and expertise of community pharmacists have been seriously under-utilised, mainly as a consequence of pre-packaged medication and innovations such as patient leaflets. That has been a terrible waste, not least because, in many parts of Wales, as we have already heard, pharmacists are more accessible and easier to use than general practitioners. There are 700 community pharmacies in Wales, compared with 500 general medical practices, and, consequently, they are easier to access. The

Brian Gibbons: Ers bron i genhedlaeth, mae’r modd y defnyddir holl sgiliau ac arbenigedd fferyllwyr cymunedol wedi bod yn ddifrifol o ddiffygiol, yn bennaf o ganlyniad i feddyginiaethau wedi’i phecynnu’n barod a syniadau arloesol megis taflenni i gleifion. Mae hynny wedi bod yn wastraff ofnadwy, yn bennaf oherwydd bod fferyllwyr, mewn llawer rhan o Gymru, fel y clywsom eisoes, yn haws eu cyrraedd a’u defnyddio na meddygon teulu. Mae yna 700 o fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghymru, o’u cymharu â 500 o bractisiau meddygon teulu,

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latest GP patient survey, from last year, shows that more than 80 per cent of patients can see a GP or a primary care worker within 24 hours, and almost 75 per cent can pre-book appointments two days in advance. Nonetheless, there is a need to improve access to primary care services, which community pharmacists can deliver.

ac o ganlyniad mae’n haws eu cyrraedd. Dengys yr arolwg diweddaraf y llynedd o gleifion meddygon teulu y gall dros 80 y cant o gleifion weld meddyg teulu neu weithiwr gofal sylfaenol cyn pen 24 awr, ac y gall bron i 75 y cant drefnu apwyntiadau ddeuddydd ymlaen llaw. Er hynny, mae angen gwella’r gallu i gael gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol, a gall fferyllwyr cymunedol wneud hynny.

Real progress has been made since the new pharmacy contract came into being. There are just over 300 pharmacists now providing medicine review services, 200 providing smoking cessation and needle exchange services, and over 400 pharmacies providing supervised administrative services. These are important developments on the back of the new contract. Therefore, real progress is being made, but, if you look at the areas where further improvement could be made, there is a disappointingly low level of uptake of minor illnesses services and in the undertaking of early disease detection, with regard to blood pressure and diabetes. There is also a great opportunity to more closely integrate the chronic disease management regime with mainstream primary care services. If this is to happen, one of the key developments needed is to further enhance the primary care and community health service IT networks. Good progress has been made in this area over recent years, and one of the big challenges in the near future will be to move to a two-way exchange of information between community pharmacists and other primary healthcare practitioners. In addition, the further development of a common health record is a challenge.

Gwnaed cynnydd gwirioneddol ers cyflwyno’r contract fferylliaeth newydd. Erbyn hyn, mae ychydig dros 300 o fferyllwyr yn darparu gwasanaethau adolygu meddyginiaethau, 200 yn darparu gwasanaethau i roi’r gorau i ysmygu a chyfnewid nodwyddau, a dros 400 o fferyllfeydd yn darparu gwasanaethau cymryd meddyginiaeth dan oruchwyliaeth. Mae’r rhain yn ddatblygiadau pwysig yn sgil y contract newydd. Felly, mae yna gynnydd gwirioneddol, ond o edrych ar y meysydd lle gellid gwella ymhellach, mae nifer y fferyllfeydd sy’n ymdrin â mân afiechydon a darganfod clefydau’n gynnar, o ran pwysedd gwaed a diabetes, yn siomedig o isel. Mae yna gyfle gwych hefyd i integreiddio’n agosach y drefn rheoli clefydau cronig mewn gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol prif ffrwd. Os bwriedir i hynny ddigwydd, un o’r datblygiadau allweddol angenrheidiol yw gwella rhwydweithiau TG gwasanaethau iechyd cymunedol a gofal sylfaenol ymhellach. Mae cynnydd da wedi’i wneud yn y maes hwn dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ac un o’r heriau mawr yn y dyfodol agos fydd symud tuag at gyfnewid gwybodaeth rhwng fferyllwyr cymunedol ac ymarferwyr eraill mewn gofal iechyd sylfaenol. Her arall yw datblygu cofnod iechyd cyffredin ymhellach.

In Wales, the importance of chronic disease management should not be underestimated. We have a significantly high level of chronic disease. It is important to realise that three quarters of those who suffer from chronic diseases, such as high blood pressure, heart disease and respiratory illnesses, are under pensionable age. In many cases, these people would have had to pay for their prescriptions in the past if they wished to manage their conditions. In the past, a great deal of pharmacy time was taken up with people turning up at pharmacies asking which of the various medications regularly used to manage

Yng Nghymru, ni ddylid diystyrru pwysigrwydd rheoli clefydau cronig. Mae gennym lefel uchel iawn o glefydau cronig. Mae’n bwysig sylweddoli nad yw tri chwarter y bobl sydd â chlefydau cronig, megis pwysedd gwaed uchel, clefyd y galon a anhwylderau anadlu, wedi cyrraedd oedran pensiwn. Mewn llawer achos byddai’n rhaid i’r bobl hynny fod wedi talu am eu presgripsiynau yn y gorffennol pe baent yn dymuno rheoli eu cyflyrau. Yn y gorffennol, treuliwyd llawer o amser mewn fferyllfeydd yn ymdrin â phobl yn dod yno i ofyn pa feddyginiaethau oedd y rhai lleiaf pwysig o

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these conditions were the least important—which medication could they most afford not to use. Thanks to the free prescription scheme in Wales, this is no longer the case, and pharmacists can concentrate on dealing with these issues rather than helping patients to rationalise the many medications that chronic diseases often require. So, the introduction of the free prescription scheme obviously enhances the potential role of community pharmacists as well as being a massive investment in promoting public health and preventing disease in Wales.

blith eu hamrywiol feddyginiaethau rheolaidd i reoli’r cyflyrau hyn—pa feddyginiaeth, o roi’r gorau i’w defnyddio, a fyddai’n effeithio leiaf arnynt. Diolch i’r cynllun presgripsiynau am ddim yng Nghymru, nid yw hynny’n digwydd mwyach, a gall fferyllwyr ganolbwyntio ar ymdrin â’r materion hyn yn hytrach na helpu cleifion i wneud synnwyr o’r meddyginiaethau niferus y mae eu hangen yn aml i reoli clefydau cronig. Felly, mae cyflwyno’r cynllun presgripsiynau am ddim yn amlwg yn gwella rôl bosibl fferyllwyr cymunedol yn ogystal â bod yn fuddsoddiad enfawr i iechyd y cyhoedd ac atal afiechyd yng Nghymru.

A further way in which primary care can be more effectively integrated with community pharmacists is through new primary care centres. As the Minister knows, I am disappointed that, in my constituency of Port Talbot, it has not been possible to fully integrate the pharmacy service with the new primary care centre. One of the reasons for that is the bewilderingly complex set of pharmaceutical regulations. I am pleased to see, in the letter that the Minister wrote, and in the emerging findings of the task and finish group, that a fresh view will be taken of these regulations. Indeed, the Minister is keen that the review takes place.

Ffordd arall y gellir integreiddio gofal sylfaenol yn fwy effeithiol â fferyllwyr cymunedol yw drwy ganolfannau gofal sylfaenol newydd. Fel y gŵyr y Gweinidog, yr wyf yn siomedig na fu’n bosibl integreiddio gwasanaeth fferylliaeth yn llawn â’r ganolfan gofal sylfaenol newydd yn fy etholaeth i ym Mhort Talbot. Un o’r rhesymau am hynny yw’r set gymhleth ryfeddol o reoliadau fferyllol. Yr wyf yn falch gweld, yn y llythyr a ysgrifennodd y Gweinidog ac yn narganfyddiadau’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen sy’n dod i’r amlwg, fod y rheoliadau hyn i gael eu hystyried o’r newydd. Yn wir, mae’r Gweinidog yn awyddus i’r adolygiad ddigwydd.

Jonathan Morgan: I am grateful to Brian Gibbons for giving way. When you were the Minister in 2005, you told the pharmacy industry that a new set of consolidated regulations would be introduced as soon as possible because the new contract was a mere amendment to the 1992 regulations. Do you regret the fact that we do not have a consolidated set of regulations encompassing the new pharmacy contract?

Jonathan Morgan: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Brian Gibbons am ildio. Pan oeddech chi’n Weinidog yn 2005, dywedasoch wrth y diwydiant fferylliaeth y byddai set newydd o reoliadau cyfun yn cael ei chyflwyno cyn gynted â phosibl am nad oedd y contract newydd ond diwygiad i reoliadau 1992. A ydych yn gresynu nad oes gennym set gyfun o reoliadau sy’n cwmpasu’r contract fferylliaeth newydd?

Brian Gibbons: I think that there was a clear need to update these complex regulations, and I am pleased that the task and finish group has agreed that this needs to be done. Indeed, from the correspondence that I have received from the Minister, I know that she is committed to doing that. I am pleased that progress is being made, because it is long overdue. Such changes will further allow the integration of pharmacy with primary care services.

Brian Gibbons: Credaf fod angen amlwg am ddiweddaru’r rheoliadau cymhleth hyn, ac yr wyf yn falch fod y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi cytuno bod angen gwneud hyn. Yn wir, o’r ohebiaeth a gefais gan y Gweinidog, gwn ei bod wedi ymrwymo i wneud hynny. Yr wyf yn falch fod cynnydd yn digwydd, oherwydd mae’n hen bryd ei gael. Bydd newidiadau o’r fath yn caniatáu integreiddio fferylliaeth ymhellach mewn gwasanaethau gofal sylfaenol.

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Jonathan Morgan: I am delighted to support the motion and to take part in the debate on where pharmacy in Wales needs to go. When the new contract was introduced five years ago, the Government told us that the contract would lead to more innovation and a much increased involvement of pharmacy services, with pharmacists delivering new, innovative local solutions. They told us that this would mean an improvement in the level of service that people could access in their villages. In fact, I am afraid that the situation is quite far removed from that promise made five years ago. If you look at where those services are being provided and at what aspects of the new contract are being provided by pharmacies, they are not taking a range of opportunities because the local health boards have not been swift enough in implementing those aspects of the contracts that would deliver innovative local services. We strongly believe that, if we are to provide an NHS that is more flexible and driven by clinical excellence, pharmacists have a key role to play. They are capable of providing a whole range of services in their communities.

Jonathan Morgan: Mae’n bleser gennyf gefnogi’r cynnig a chymryd rhan yn y ddadl ar y cyfeiriad y mae angen i fferylliaeth yng Nghymru fynd. Pan gyflwynwyd y contract newydd bum mlynedd yn ôl, dywedodd y Llywodraeth wrthym y byddai’r contract yn arwain at fwy o arloesi ac at gynnwys gwasanaethau fferylliaeth i raddau helaethach o lawer, a fferyllwyr yn darparu atebion lleol newydd ac arloesol i broblemau. Cawsom wybod gan y Llywodraeth y byddai hynny’n golygu gwelliant yn lefel y gwasanaeth y gallai pobl ei gael yn eu pentrefi. Mewn gwirionedd, mae’n flin gennyf ddweud bod y sefyllfa’n wahanol iawn i’r addewid hwnnw a wnaed bum mlynedd yn ôl. O edrych ar ble y caiff y gwasanaethau hynny eu darparu a pha agweddau ar y contract newydd a ddarperir gan fferyllfeydd, nid ydynt yn cymryd amrywiaeth o gyfleoedd am nad yw’r byrddau iechyd lleol wedi symud yn ddigon cyflym i weithredu’r agweddau hynny ar y contractau a fyddai’n darparu gwasanaethau lleol arloesol. Os ydym i ddarparu GIG sy’n fwy hyblyg ac yn cael ei yrru gan ragoriaeth glinigol, credwn yn gryf fod gan fferyllwyr rôl allweddol. Mae ganddynt y gallu i ddarparu ystod gyfan o wasanaethau yn eu cymunedau.

4.20 p.m.

Over a 12-month period, some 90 per cent of the population would end up seeing their pharmacist at one point or another. People trust their pharmacists; they recognise and accept the excellent service that they receive. Therefore, there is a real need for the Assembly Government to ensure that those services that have been delivered through the contract are rolled out and that we start to eliminate the postcode lottery that we have seen in the past five years.

Dros gyfnod o 12 mis, bydd tua 90 y cant o’r boblogaeth yn gweld eu fferyllydd rywbryd neu’i gilydd. Mae pobl yn ymddiried yn eu fferyllwyr; maent yn cydnabod ac yn derbyn y gwasanaeth ardderchog a gânt. Felly, mae angen gwirioneddol i Lywodraeth y Cynulliad sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau hynny sydd wedi’u darparu drwy’r contract yn cael eu darparu, a’n bod yn dechrau dileu’r loteri cod post yr ydym wedi ei gweld yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf.

I make a plea to the Government that if it is going to start tackling one of the local health boards, it should start to tackle Cardiff local health board. Cardiff is the capital city of Wales, but the health board has been absolutely shocking in delivering certain aspects of the new contract. In terms of the national enhanced services, it does not provide a minor ailments service; in terms of the local enhanced services, it does not

Os yw’n bwriadu dechrau mynd i’r afael ag un o’r byrddau iechyd lleol, apeliaf ar y Llywodraeth y dyali ddechrau mynd i’r afael â bwrdd iechyd lleol Caerdydd. Caerdydd yw prifddinas Cymru, ond mae perfformiad y bwrdd iechyd wedi bod yn gwbl warthus wrth ddarparu agweddau penodol ar y contract newydd. O ran y gwasanaethau gwell cenedlaethol, nid yw’n darparu gwasanaeth mân anhwylderau; o ran y

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provide support for asthma, blood pressure testing, cholesterol testing, clinical medication review, or diabetes support. My blood pressure will go up if I continue to read the list. There is a significant list of services that could be provided in the capital city that are not being provided because the local health board simply has not had the time or the inclination to commission these services through our pharmacies here.

gwasanaethau gwell lleol, nid yw’n darparu cymorth gydag asthma, profion pwysedd gwaed, profion colesterol, adolygu meddyginiaeth glinigol, na chymorth gyda diabetes. Bydd fy mhwysedd gwaed i’n codi os y rhaglen ymhellach. Mae yna restr faith o wasanaethau a allai gael eu darparu yn y brifddinas ac nad ydynt yn cael eu darparu am na fu gan y bwrdd iechyd lleol, yn syml iawn, yr amser na’r awydd i gomisiynu’r gwasanaethau hyn drwy ein fferyllfeydd yma.

It is appalling when you consider that you can travel a few miles down the road to Newport and access services, if you were living in Newport, that you cannot have in Cardiff. If you were living in Swansea and, as Peter Black alluded to earlier, you needed the morning-after pill, it is free from chemists in Swansea. In Cardiff, it costs £25. The fact of the matter is that we have people throughout Wales who are not able to access services because of the way in which local health boards have simply not commissioned those services with their pharmacists.

Mae’n warthus o ystyried y gallwch deithio ychydig filltiroedd i lawr y ffordd i Gasnewydd a chael gwasanaethau, pe baech yn byw yng Nghasnewydd, na allwch eu cael yma yng Nghaerdydd. Pe baech yn byw yn Abertawe a bod arnoch angen y bilsen drannoeth, fel y soniodd Peter Black yn gynharach, byddai ar gael yn rhad ac am ddim gan fferyllwyr yn Abertawe. Yng Nghaerdydd, mae’n costio £25. Y gwir amdani yw bod gennym bobl ledled Cymru sy’n methu cael gwasanaethau am nad yw byrddau iechyd lleol, yn syml iawn, wedi comisiynu’r gwasanaethau hynny gyda’u fferyllwyr.

Peter Black: It is only free of charge in some chemists in Swansea; not in every chemist.

Peter Black: Mewn rhai fferyllfeydd yn unig y mae ar gael yn rhad ac am ddim yn Abertawe; nid ym mhob fferyllfa.

Jonathan Morgan: I apologise. The point that I am making is that if you live in Swansea, near the chemists that do provide it, you are able to access that service. You cannot access that service at all in Cardiff. I urge the Assembly Government, as I said to Brian Gibbons earlier, to not just introduce that consolidated set of regulations so that we know exactly where the pharmacy contract sits in law. At the moment, it is a mere amendment to the 1992 regulations which, quite frankly, is bizarre. You promised to introduce consolidated regulations, but you have not done so. By the time you get round to doing it, a new contract will be in place. That is not the best way to treat the pharmacy profession. I do not think that doctors would have tolerated that if we had legislated in that way in relation to them. You have a golden opportunity to ensure consistency of some of those services. Where we have a high rate of diabetes, higher rates of coronary heart disease, and high rates of vascular disease,

Jonathan Morgan: Mae’n flin gennyf. Fy mhwynt yw hyn: os ydych yn byw yn Abertawe, gerllaw’r fferyllfeydd sydd yn ei darparu, gallwch gael y gwasanaeth hwnnw. Ni allwch gael y gwasanaeth hwnnw o gwbl yng Nghaerdydd. Pwysaf ar Lywodraeth y Cynulliad, fel y dywedais wrth Brian Gibbons yn gynharach, i beidio â chyflwyno’r set gyfun o reoliadau am un rheswm yn unig, sef ein galluogi i wybod yn union ble mae’r contract fferylliaeth yn sefyll o ran y gyfraith. Ar hyn o bryd, nid yw’n ddim ond diwygiad o reoliadau 1992, sydd, a siarad yn blaen, yn rhyfedd. Addawsoch gyflwyno rheoliadau cyfun, ond nid ydych wedi gwneud hynny. Erbyn ichi wneud hynny, bydd contract newydd ar waith. Nid dyna’r ffordd orau i drin y proffesiwn fferylliaeth. N chredaf y byddai meddygon wedi goddef hynny pe baem wedi deddfu yn y fath fodd yn eu cyswllt hwy. Mae gennych gyfle euraid i sicrhau cysondeb yn rhai o’r gwasanaethau hynny. Lle mae gennym

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we should be ensuring that our pharmacies can provide these services to tackle some of these big determinants of health. We lag behind the rest of the UK on some of the biggest key indicators that are examined in Europe, and that is appalling. However, by using the contract and the new local health boards and by providing these additional services, pharmacies can help to provide the service to the people of Wales where we need to tackle these big public health challenges. Minister, I think that some of these bodies need a severe kick up the behind, and I suspect that you are the person to do it.

gyfradd uchel o ddiabetes, cyfraddau uwch o glefyd coronaidd y galon, a chyfraddau uchel o glefydau fasgwlaidd, dylem fod yn sicrhau y gall ein fferyllfeydd ddarparu’r gwasanaethau hyn i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r ffactorau pwysig hyn sy’n dylanwadu ar iechyd. Yr ydym ar ôl gweddill y DU o ran rhai o’r dangosyddion allweddol pwysicaf a archwilir yn Ewrop, ac mae hynny’n warthus. Fodd bynnag, drwy ddefnyddio’r contract a’r byrddau iechyd lleol newydd, a thrwy ddarparu’r gwasanaethau ychwanegol hyn, gall fferyllfeydd helpu darparu’r gwasanaeth i bobl Cymru lle mae angen inni fynd i’r afael â’r heriau mawr hyn i iechyd y cyhoedd. Weinidog, credaf fod angen rhoi rhai o’r cyrff hyn yn eu lle, ac yr wyf yn rhyw gredu mai chi yw’r un i wneud hynny.

Helen Mary Jones: I welcome the debate. I will obviously be supporting the Government’s amendment. However, it is important to highlight the importance of community pharmacy. I am thinking particularly of the true community pharmacists who are often one or two-people organisations. I am not saying that the big organisations like Boots and the others do not have an important role to play, but those small pharmacies that are very much part of their communities make a huge contribution, which needs to be recognised and enhanced.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr wyf yn croesawu’r ddadl. Yn amlwg, byddaf yn cefnogi gwelliant y Llywodraeth. Fodd bynnag, mae’n bwysig tynnu sylw at bwysigrwydd fferylliaeth gymunedol. Yr wyf yn meddwl yn benodol am y fferyllfeydd cymunedol go iawn sy’n aml yn sefydliadau yn cael eu rhedeg gan un neu ddau unigolyn. Nid wyf yn dweud nad oes gan y sefydliadau mawr megis Boots ac eraill rôl bwysig, ond mae’r fferyllfeydd bach hynny sy’n rhan bwysig iawn o’u cymunedau yn gwneud cyfraniad enfawr ac y mae angen ei gydnabod a’i wella.

I am somewhat confused—not for the first time—by our colleagues in the Conservative group. On the one hand, some of them have consistently accused our Minister of being a control freak and of making too many decisions centrally and taking all of the power herself, but today we have heard many concerns about the Minister allowing the local health boards to go their own way on pharmacy issues. You know me; I am all for control freakery, and I would be more than happy to have the issues dealt with centrally. I am delighted to give way to Andrew R.T. Davies.

Yr wyf wedi drysu braidd—ac nid am y tro cyntaf—gan ein cydweithwyr yng ngrŵp y Ceidwadwyr. Ar y naill law, mae rhai ohonynt wedi cyhuddo ein Gweinidog yn gyson o ddal yr awenau’n rhy dynn ac o wneud gormod o benderfyniadau’n ganolog a mynnu cadw’r grym iddi ei hun. Ond heddiw fe’u clywsom yn mynegi nifer o bryderon am fod y Gweinidog yn caniatáu i fyrddau iechyd lleol droedio’u llwybr eu hunain mewn materion fferylliaeth. Yr ydych yn fy adnabod i; yr wyf yn frwd o blaid dal yr awenau’n dynn, a byddwn yn fwy na pharod i adael i’r materion gael sylw’n ganolog. Mae’n bleser gennyf ildio i Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies: The concern raised is the lack of direction because the centre is giving direction to a point, but local health boards are then failing to pick up the mantle and address local concerns, such as diabetes,

Andrew R.T. Davies: Y pryder a fynegwyd yw’r diffyg cyfarwyddyd, oherwydd mae’r canol yn cynnig cyfarwyddyd hyd ryw fan, ond mae’r byrddau iechyd lleol wedyn yn methu â chymryd y cyfrifoldeb a mynd i’r

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highlighted by my colleague, Jonathan Morgan. We are also concerned by the inconsistencies that develop as a result of this process; these have clearly been addressed in other parts of the United Kingdom.

afael â phryderon lleol, megis diabetes y tynnwyd sylw ato gan fy nghydweithiwr, Jonathan Morgan. Yr ydym hefyd yn pryderu am yr anghysonderau sy’n datblygu o ganlyniad i’r broses hon; mae’n amlwg bod rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig wedi mynd i’r afael â’r rhain.

Helen Mary Jones: You are making the exact point that I am making. I completely agree that there needs to be a level playing field—we should not have a situation where people are able to access services in some areas of Wales and not in others. In the past, however, your group has been very critical of the Minister for trying to set a national standard in other contexts, instead of letting local bodies do their own thing. Much as I appreciate the Conservatives’ good intentions today, I would suggest that they cannot have it both ways—either they want central control and direction or they want local autonomy. I cannot see a way that one can have both.

Helen Mary Jones: Yr ydych yn gwneud yr union bwynt yr wyf fi’n ei wneud. Cytunaf yn llwyr fod angen i bawb gael chwarae teg—ni ddylem gael sefyllfa lle gall pobl gael gwasanaethau mewn rhai ardaloedd yng Nghymru ond nid mewn ardaloedd eraill. Yn y gorffennol, fodd bynnag, mae eich grŵp wedi beirniadu’r Gweinidog yn hallt iawn am geisio gosod safon genedlaethol mewn cyd-destunau eraill, yn hytrach na gadael i gyrff lleol droedio’u llwybr eu hunain. Er fy mod yn gwerthfawrogi bwriadau da y Ceidwadwyr heddiw, awgrymaf na allant ei chael hi bob ffordd—naill ai maent o blaid rheolaeth a chyfarwyddyd canolog ynteu maent o blaid annibyniaeth leol. Ni allaf weld bod modd cael y ddeubeth.

This debate is important, as are the roles that community pharmacies play. As we have already heard, community pharmacies often have a different relationship with their customers or patients than other health professionals have with theirs. On the whole, we only see other health professionals when we are ill, whereas we will often pop in and out of community pharmacies—as I do in Trimsaran and Burry Port—to buy a bottle of shampoo or have a chat. The latter develop a relationship with their customers.

Mae’r ddadl hon yn bwysig, fel y mae rolau fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn bwysig. Fel y clywsom eisoes, mae’r berthynas rhwng fferyllfeydd cymunedol a’u cwsmeriaid neu eu cleifion yn aml yn wahanol i’r berthynas rhwng gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol eraill a’u cwsmeriaid neu eu cleifion hwy. At ei gilydd, ni fyddwn yn gweld gweithwyr proffesiynol eraill ym maes iechyd oni bai ein bod yn sâl, ond byddwn yn galw heibio byth a hefyd i fferyllfeydd cymunedol—fel y byddaf fi yn Nhrimsaran a Phorth Tywyn—i brynu potel o siampŵ neu i gael sgwrs. Mae fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn datblygu perthynas â’u cwsmeriaid.

Older patients, in particular, may feel happier to raise issues with community pharmacists, especially those patients who do not want to bother the doctor. We often see this among older people who say that they do not want to bother anyone or make a fuss. I know of constituents of mine who have been able to say that ‘I have not been feeling very well’ or ‘I am a bit worried about this’ to a community pharmacist. If there is a big problem, the pharmacist will then be able to refer them. We do not yet make the best use of that expertise. It is important that we value

Gall cleifion hŷn, yn enwedig, fod yn fwy parod i sôn am broblemau wrth fferyllwyr cymunedol, yn enwedig y cleifion hynny nad ydynt am boeni’r meddyg. Gwelwn hynny’n aml ymhlith pobl hŷn sy’n dweud nad ydynt am boeni neb na chreu ffwdan. Gwn am rai o’m hetholwyr i sydd wedi medru dweud wrth fferyllydd cymunedol ‘Rwy’ wedi bod yn teimlo’n anhwylus’ neu ‘Rwy’n gofidio ychydig am hyn’. Os oes problem fawr, gall y fferyllydd eu cyfeirio wedyn at y meddyg. Nid ydym eto’n defnyddio’r arbenigedd hwnnw yn y ffordd orau sy’n bosibl. Mae’n

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pharmacists and it is important that we use their expertise fully. I am well aware that pharmacists continue to have concerns that their expertise is not being fully utilised.

bwysig inni werthfawrogi fferyllwyr, ac y mae’n bwysig inni ddefnyddio’u harbenigedd i’r eithaf. Gwn yn iawn fod fferyllwyr yn dal i bryderu nad yw eu harbenigedd yn cael ei ddefnyddio i’r eithaf.

In that context, I was grateful to the Minister for agreeing to meet two pharmacists from my constituency last year, both of whom were examples of real community-based pharmacists, who were keen to ensure that their voices were heard in the work of the task and finish group, as well as those of the bigger commercial pharmacists—the ones working out of supermarkets, and big chains such as Boots. Those constituents appreciated having the opportunity to talk to the Minister, and they were pleased by her positive response to the concerns that were raised. I know that, partly as a result of that meeting, the Minster strongly supports using community pharmacists’ expertise to help reduce medicine wastage.

Yn y cyd-destun hwnnw yr oeddwn yn ddiolchgar i’r Gweinidog am gytuno i gwrdd â dau fferyllydd o’m hetholaeth i y llynedd, y ddau’n esiamplau o fferyllwyr cymunedol go iawn a oedd yn awyddus i sicrhau bod eu lleisiau hwy’n cael eu clywed yng ngwaith y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen, yn ogystal â lleisiau fferyllwyr masnachol mwy o faint—y rheini sy’n gweithio mewn archfarchnadoedd, a chadwyni mawr megis Boots. Yr oedd yr etholwyr hynny’n gwerthfawrogi cael cyfle i siarad â’r Gweinidog, a chawsant eu plesio gan ei hymateb cadarnhaol i’r pryderon a godwyd. Gwn fod y Gweinidog, yn rhannol o ganlyniad i’r cyfarfod hwnnw, yn gryf o blaid defnyddio arbenigedd fferyllwyr cymunedol i helpu lleihau gwastraffu meddyginiaethau.

The issues raised with her in that meeting included the fact that some of the top-down approaches of former health boards have not always been useful and were too much of a one-size-fits-all approach. I am confident that the Minister will ensure that lessons are learnt from that. As I have said, it is not enough for us to express our appreciation of the expertise of community pharmacists; we need to make much fuller use of it. I am confident that our Minister will ensure that we do.

Yr oedd y materion a godwyd gyda hi yn y cyfarfod hwnnw’n cynnwys y ffaith nad oedd rhai o’r dulliau gweithredu o’r brig i lawr a oedd gan yr hen fyrddau iechyd lleol yn ddefnyddiol bob amser, a bod tuedd i ddisgwyl i’r un dulliau fod yn addas i bawb. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd y Gweinidog yn sicrhau y caiff gwersi eu dysgu o hynny. Fel y dywedais, nid yw’n ddigon inni fynegi ein gwerthfawrogiad o arbenigedd fferyllwyr cymunedol; mae angen inni ei ddefnyddio’n llawnach o lawer. Yr wyf yn hyderus y bydd ein Gweinidog yn sicrhau ein bod yn gwneud hynny.

Mohammad Asghar: Thank you for the opportunity to speak on this important issue. It is crucial that we all respect and recognise the integral role that community pharmacies play in Wales. There are over 700 community pharmacies across Wales, and they can all offer essential medical assistance. Community pharmacies are well placed to provide guidance and assistance on a number of ailments. These are often illnesses and complaints for which many people are instead visiting their GPs to seek advice. By urging more people to attend community pharmacies, it is clear that the precious time

Mohammad Asghar: Diolch am y cyfle i siarad am y mater pwysig hwn. Mae’n hollbwysig inni bob un barchu a chydnabod rôl hanfodol fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghymru. Mae dros 700 o fferyllfeydd cymunedol ar draws Cymru, a gallant i gyd gynnig cymorth meddygol hanfodol. Mae fferyllfeydd cymunedol mewn sefyllfa dda i ddarparu arweiniad a chymorth gyda nifer o anhwylderau. Yn aml maent yn afiechydon ac yn anhwylderau y bydd llawer o bobl yn mynd i weld eu meddyg teulu yn lle’r fferyllydd i ofyn am gyngor. Drwy annog mwy o bobl i fynd i fferyllfeydd cymunedol,

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of Welsh GPs can be saved. This time can instead be invested into seeing members of the public suffering from more serious or chronic conditions. Substantial amounts of time and money can be saved. This is clearly a beneficial situation for all of us in Wales.

mae’n amlwg y bydd modd arbed amser gwerthfawr meddygon teulu Cymru. Gellir buddsoddi’r amser hwnnw wedyn i weld pobl sy’n dioddef o gyflyrau mwy difrifol neu gronig. Gellir arbed llawer iawn o amser ac arian. Mae hon yn amlwg yn sefyllfa fanteisiol inni i gyd yng Nghymru.

Research has shown that the average GP surgery consultation lasts over 11 minutes and, as my colleague mentioned, costs just over £32. A similar consultation in a pharmacy would cost £17.75. These are the financial facts; pharmacies save money and time so that doctors are able to devote their efforts to diagnosing more serious diseases. Community pharmacies must be commissioned to treat minor conditions, such as head lice and diarrhoea, to make sure that time is saved and that pressure on GPs is relieved.

Mae ymchwil wedi dangos bod sesiwn ymgynghori mewn meddygfa meddygon teulu yn para dros 11 munud ar gyfartaledd, ac fel y soniodd fy nghydweithiwr, mae’n costio ychydig dros £32. Byddai sesiwn ymgynghori debyg mewn fferyllfa yn costio £17.75. Dyna’r ffeithiau ariannol; mae fferyllfeydd yn arbed arian ac amser fel y gall meddygon sianelu eu hymdrechion i ddiagnosio clefydau mwy difrifol. Rhaid comisiynu fferyllfeydd cymunedol i drin mân gyflyrau, megis llau pen a dolur rhydd, er mwyn sicrhau arbed amser ac ysgafnhau’r pwysau ar feddygon teulu.

4.30 p.m.

The financial benefit of promoting the use of community pharmacies for the NHS in Wales is clear. The majority of people in Wales already have excellent access to community pharmacies. Most people live within 20 minutes of one and will travel past it every week. By attending community pharmacies, people have access to well-informed health professionals.

Mae’r fantais ariannol i’r GIG yng Nghymru o annog pobl i ddefnyddio fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn amlwg. Mae’r mwyafrif o bobl Cymru eisoes yn gallu defnyddio fferyllfeydd cymunedol. Mae’r mwyafrif yn byw o fewn 20 munud i fferyllfa o’r fath, a byddant yn teithio heibio iddi bob wythnos. Drwy fynd i fferyllfeydd cymunedol, gall pobl gael gwasanaeth gweithwyr iechyd proffesiynol deallus.

David Lloyd: Would you agree that the health promotion aspects of local pharmacists in promoting the use of all preventative tablets required are fatally undermined by the Tories’ policy on prescription charges?

David Lloyd: A fyddech yn cytuno bod y gwaith hybu iechyd a wnaiff fferyllwyr cymunedol, o ran annog pobl i ddefnyddio’r holl dabledi sy’n ofynnol i atal afiechyd, yn cael ei danseilio’n ddifrifol gan bolisi’r Torïaid ar daliadau presgripsiwn?

Mohammad Asghar: No, Dai, I think that you are out of tune on that. Let the Tories come to power and I am sure that they will serve the national health service better than Labour—I can assure you of that.

Mohammad Asghar: Na fyddwn, Dai. Credaf eich bod ymhell ohoni o ran hynny. Gadewch i’r Torïaid ddod i rym, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y byddant yn gofalu am y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn well na’r Blaid Lafur—gallaf eich sicrhau o hynny.

Pharmacists, and the community pharmacy service more generally, should be given the opportunity to do so much more. That is why I think that we should be giving them more power to deal with minor problems, as

Dylai fferyllwyr, a’r gwasanaeth fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn fwy cyffredinol, gael cyfle i wneud cymaint yn fwy. Dyna pam y credaf y dylem roi mwy o rym iddynt ymdrin â mân broblemau, yn hytrach nag ymdrin ag

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opposed to dealing with serious illnesses, where doctors are involved. Extended sexual health provision and diabetes testing are just two examples of areas in which they should be allowed to do more for communities. It is clear that the role of community pharmacies in Wales is essential, and every effort should be made to strengthen their role, which can save not only millions of pounds, but the time of doctors, thereby enabling them to deal with other serious matters, as mentioned by Dr Lloyd and Dr Gibbons.

afiechydon difrifol y bydd meddygon yn ymwneud â hwy. Mae darpariaeth estynedig ym maes iechyd rhyw ynghyd â phrofion diabetes yn ddwy enghraifft yn unig o feysydd lle dylid caniatáu iddynt wneud mwy dros gymunedau. Mae’n amlwg fod rôl fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghymru yn hanfodol, a dylid gwneud pob ymdrech i gryfhau eu rôl. Yn ogystal ag arbed miliynau o bunnoedd, gall hynny arbed amser meddygon, a’u galluogi felly i ymdrin â materion difrifol eraill, fel y soniodd Dr Lloyd a Dr Gibbons.

Jenny Randerson: I want to concentrate on Cardiff, to which Jonathan Morgan and Andrew R.T. Davies have referred. In general terms, Cardiff faces very specific health pressures. We have a structure that has been overly reliant on secondary care and emergency services, and there are very complex health needs, as you would expect in any large city. In respect of primary care in Cardiff, there are about 20 GP surgeries that are full. As a result, there is immense pressure on GP surgeries generally, and only last week someone came to my constituency surgery to complain that they were unable to register with a GP that was located within a reasonable distance. Yet, the community pharmacies in Cardiff offer very few additional or enhanced services. That is not because they do not want to, but because they are unable to under the structure of the former local health board, which is now Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board.

Jenny Randerson: Hoffwn ganolbwyntio ar y sefyllfa yng Nghaerdydd, y cyfeiriodd Jonathan Morgan ac Andrew R.T. Davies ati. Yn gyffredinol, mae Caerdydd yn wynebu pwysau penodol iawn ym maes iechyd. Mae gennym strwythur sydd wedi bod yn dibynnu’n ormodol ar ofal eilaidd a gwasanaethau brys, ac y mae anghenion cymhleth iawn o ran iechyd, fel y byddech yn ei ddisgwyl mewn unrhyw ddinas fawr. O ran gofal sylfaenol yng Nghaerdydd, mae tua 20 o feddygfeydd meddygon teulu sy’n llawn. O ganlyniad, mae pwysau aruthrol ar feddygfeydd meddygon teulu yn gyffredinol, ac mor ddiweddar â’r wythnos diwethaf daeth rhywun i’m cymhorthfa yn fy etholaeth i gwyno am nad oedd modd cofrestru gyda meddyg teulu a oedd o fewn pellter rhesymol. Er hynny, ychydig iawn o wasanaethau ychwanegol neu well a gynigir gan y fferyllfeydd cymunedol sydd yng Nghaerdydd. Nid diffyg awydd i’w cynnig yw’r rheswm am hynny, ond diffyg gallu dan strwythur yr hen fwrdd iechyd lleol, sef Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Caerdydd a’r Fro erbyn hyn.

Another example of a service that is under severe pressure in Cardiff is that of the genito-urinary service at the Cardiff Royal Infirmary. The situation there continues to be dire. I received a complaint at the weekend from someone who said that he had been trying to ring the service for over a week, but no-one there answers the phone. That kind of situation is a result of considerable pressure on services. However, basic sexual health services are not offered across the board through pharmacies in Cardiff. It seems to me that, if everything from health checks to the needle exchange were provided in

Enghraifft arall o wasanaeth sydd dan bwysau difrifol yng Nghaerdydd yw’r gwasanaeth cenhedlol-wrinol yn Ysbyty Brenhinol Caerdydd. Mae’r sefyllfa yno’n dal yn arswydus. Cefais gŵyn yn ystod y penwythnos gan rywun a ddywedodd ei fod wedi bod yn ceisio ffonio’r gwasanaeth ers dros wythnos, ond nid oes neb yno’n ateb y ffôn. Mae’r math hwnnw o sefyllfa’n deillio o bwysau sylweddol ar wasanaethau. Fodd bynnag, ni chaiff gwasanaethau sylfaenol ym maes iechyd rhyw eu cynnig yn gyffredinol drwy fferyllfeydd yng Nghaerdydd. Ymddengys i mi y byddai llawer iawn o

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pharmacies, so much pressure would be taken off those services. The needle exchange is a simple service to provide, and doing so would take pressure off the addiction services in Cardiff, where, once again, if you compare the statistics on waiting times and availability, Cardiff lags well behind the rest of Wales. I see community pharmacies in Cardiff as a key to unlock a much better service.

bwysau’n cael eu tynnu oddi ar y gwasanaethau hynny pe bai popeth o archwiliadau iechyd i wasanaethau cyfnewid nodwyddau yn cael ei ddarparu mewn fferyllfeydd. Mae’r gwasanaeth cyfnewid nodwyddau yn wasanaeth syml i’w ddarparu, a byddai ei ddarparu’n tynnu pwysau oddi ar y gwasanaethau dibyniaeth yng Nghaerdydd, lle mae Caerdydd unwaith eto ymhell ar ôl gweddill Cymru, o gymharu’r ystadegau ar amseroedd aros ac argaeledd. Credaf mai fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghaerdydd yw’r allwedd i agor y drws i wasanaeth gwell o lawer.

I will now turn to a second item, which relates to the issue of the reception that I sponsored for Community Pharmacy Wales last November, at which the Minister, I am pleased to say, spoke in an upbeat and positive manner, and we were delighted to hear what she said. However, at that time, Minister, you stated that your task and finish group of expert pharmacy advisers would present its final report in December. It is now February and I would be interested to hear when that report will be made available. You referred to the vision of four all-Wales enhanced services: smoking cessation, sexual health, substance misuse and needle exchange. I am slightly confused because the task and finish group seems to have become the strategic delivery group, but I am sure that you can put us right on exactly how one turns into the other, or is that just a different name for the same thing? However, I believe—and I said this at that meeting and I will repeat it—that we need a transparent and permanent group to oversee the pharmacy contract. That group should have clear representation from stakeholders because, to be honest, we have had a disappointing lack of progress for so many years in Wales, when we compare our services, as we inevitably do, with services over the border. For us in Cardiff, we do not have to look far within Wales for much better services. So, we would be grateful for a view on when that report will be published.

Hoffwn droi’n awr at ail eitem, yn ymwneud â’r dderbyniad a drefnais ar ran Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru fis Tachwedd diwethaf, lle siaradodd y Gweinidog, mae’n dda gennyf ddweud, yn obeithiol ac yn gadarnhaol. Yr oeddem yn falch iawn clywed yr hyn a ddywedodd. Fodd bynnag, ar y pryd, Weinidog, dywedasoch y byddai eich grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen o gynghorwyr arbenigol ar fferylliaeth yn cyflwyno’i adroddiad terfynol ym mis Rhagfyr. Mae’n fis Chwefror erbyn hyn, a hoffwn glywed pryd y bydd yr adroddiad dan sylw ar gael. Yr oeddech yn cyfeirio at weledigaeth o bedwar gwasanaeth gwell i Gymru gyfan: gwasanaeth rhoi’r gorau i ysmygu, gwasanaeth iechyd rhyw, gwasanaeth camddefnyddio sylweddau a gwasanaeth cyfnewid nodwyddau. Yr wyf wedi drysu braidd, oherwydd ymddengys fod y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi troi’n grŵp cyflawni strategol, ond yr wyf yn siŵr y gallwch egluro wrthym sut yn union y mae’r naill yn troi i’r llall, ynteu a oes dau enw gwahanol ar yr un math o grŵp? Fodd bynnag—dywedais hyn yn y cyfarfod dan sylw ac fe’i dywedaf eto—credaf fod arnom angen grŵp tryloyw a pharhaol i oruchwylio’r contract fferylliaeth. Dylai fod gan y grŵp hwnnw gynrychiolaeth glir o blith rhanddeiliaid, oherwydd, a dweud y gwir, gwelsom diffyg cynnydd siomedig ers cynifer o flynyddoedd yng Nghymru, o gymharu’n gwasanaethau ni, fel y gwnawn yn anochel, â gwasanaethau dros y ffin. I ni yng Nghaerdydd, nid oes rhaid inni edrych ymhell yng Nghymru i weld gwasanaethau sy’n well o lawer. Felly, byddem yn hoffi clywed barn ynghylch pryd y caiff yr adroddiad hwnnw ei gyhoeddi.

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Joyce Watson: Community pharmacies have an important growing role in terms of delivering advice and primary care in our communities. We have heard good examples of that today. The new pharmacy contract introduced by the previous Labour administration has helped to extend the range of services that pharmacies are now able to offer. That has been important because pharmacies are well placed to deal with minor ailments on the NHS and to promote good health, to support people with long-term conditions and to help prevent illness through advice and screening. We have heard good examples of that today.

Joyce Watson: Mae gan fferyllfeydd cymunedol rôl gynyddol a phwysig o ran darparu cyngor a gofal sylfaenol yn ein cymunedau. Clywsom am rai enghreifftiau da o hynny heddiw. Mae’r contract fferylliaeth newydd a gyflwynwyd gan y weinyddiaeth Lafur flaenorol wedi helpu ymestyn yr ystod o wasanaethau y gall fferyllfeydd eu cynnig erbyn hyn. Mae hynny wedi bod yn bwysig, oherwydd mae fferyllfeydd mewn sefyllfa dda i ymdrin â mân anhwylderau yn y GIG a hybu iechyd da, cynorthwyo pobl sydd â chyflyrau hirdymor, a helpu atal salwch drwy gynghori a sgrinio. Clywsom enghreifftiau da o hynny heddiw.

I worked closely with Community Pharmacies Wales over the summer as part of my work to highlight stroke risk. I was impressed with the range and quality of services that pharmacies provide. The pharmacies that I visited in my area provided on-site blood pressure checks and advice on stroke prevention, as one example. Speaking to pharmacies over the summer, one issue that they raised with me was concern that they should be exempted from the ban on single-use carrier bags for obvious reasons of discretion and confidentiality. So, I was pleased to be able to bring those concerns to the Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing, who agreed that the charge for a single-use bag would not apply to them.

Bûm yn cydweithio’n agos â Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru dros yr haf fel rhan o’m gwaith i dynnu sylw at risg strôc. Gwnaed argraff arnaf gan ystod ac ansawdd y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan fferyllfeydd. Yr oedd y fferyllfeydd yr ymwelais â hwy yn fy ardal yn darparu archwiliadau pwysedd gwaed yn y fan a’r lle ynghyd â chyngor ar atal strôc, er enghraifft. Wrth siarad â fferyllfeydd dros yr haf, un mater a godwyd gyda mi oedd pryder y dylid eu heithrio o’r gwaharddiad ar fagiau siopa a ddefnyddir unwaith yn unig, am resymau amlwg yn ymwneud â chyfrinachedd. Felly, yr oeddwn yn falch gallu mynegi’r pryderon hynny wrth y Gweinidog dros yr Amgylchedd, Cynaliadwyedd a Thai, a gytunodd na fyddai’r tâl am fag a ddefnyddir unwaith yn unig yn gymwys iddynt hwy.

On the development of services in the pharmacies that I visited, I welcome the Welsh Assembly Government-funded pharmacy practice development scheme, which is being used to develop pharmaceutical services in rural areas and for medicine-management initiatives to reduce the wastage of medicines, the importance of which has been discussed today.

O ran datblygu gwasanaethau yn y fferyllfeydd yr ymwelais â hwy, croesawaf y cynllun i ddatblygu practisiau fferylliaeth sy’n cael ei ariannu gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a’i ddefnyddio i ddatblygu gwasanaethau fferyllol mewn ardaloedd gwledig. Mae hefyd yn datblygu mentrau rheoli meddyginiaethau er mwyn lleihau gwastraffu meddyginiaethau, sydd mor bwysig, fel trafodwyd heddiw.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): All of us in the Chamber recognise that community pharmacies assist with a wide range of services, for example preventing health problems, providing extensive management of chronic conditions and tackling ill health. I strongly agree that they can be supported to

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Yr ydym i gyd yn y Siambr yn cydnabod bod fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn cynorthwyo gydag ystod eang o wasanaethau, er enghraifft, atal problemau iechyd, rheoli cyflyrau cronig yn helaeth, a mynd i’r afael ag afiechyd. Cytunaf yn gryf y gellid eu

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do more. I take on board the point made by Helen Mary Jones about individuals and their links to particular pharmacies, and Nick Ramsay said the same. Individuals like to have a chat with their pharmacist; they take their advice and consider whether they need to see their GP. I think that elderly citizens in particular enjoy that dialogue. They also go to the pharmacist to understand their medication, as they sometimes do not want to ask GPs questions, but they are more than happy to have the pharmacist explain things to them. Therefore, we are not just talking about a simple commercial arrangement with pharmacists here, but about a dialogue with the citizens of Wales.

cynorthwyo i wneud mwy. Derbyniaf y pwynt gan Helen Mary Jones am unigolion a’u cysylltiadau â fferyllfeydd penodol, a dywedodd Nick Ramsay yr un peth. Bydd unigolion yn hoffi cael sgwrs â’u fferyllydd; byddant yn cymryd cyngor eu fferyllydd ac yn ystyried a oes angen iddynt weld eu meddyg teulu. Credaf fod dinasyddion hŷn yn anad neb yn mwynhau’r sgwrs honno. Byddant yn mynd at y fferyllydd hefyd i ddeall eu meddyginiaeth, oherwydd weithiau ni fyddant am ofyn cwestiynau i feddygon teulu, ond byddant yn fwy na pharod i adael i’r fferyllydd esbonio pethau wrthynt. Felly, yr ydym yn sôn am fwy na threfniant masnachol syml yn unig gyda fferyllwyr: yr ydym yn sôn am ddeialog â dinasyddion Cymru.

4.40 p.m.

As you are aware, I established a task and finish group, under the chairmanship of Chris Martin, specifically to review pharmaceutical services in Wales, to recommend improvements in efficiency, the effectiveness and the value for money of pharmacy services while improving patient outcomes. As a result of discussions at the reception that I think was hosted by Jenny and Jonathan last year, some of the issues that came up in relation to Cardiff coloured its discussions about what we need to do.

Fel y gwyddoch, sefydlais grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen, dan gadeiryddiaeth Chris Martin, yn benodol i adolygu gwasanaethau fferyllol yng Nghymru, er mwyn argymell gwelliannau mewn effeithlonrwydd, effeithiolrwydd gwasanaethau fferylliaeth, a’u gwerth am arian wrth wella canlyniadau i gleifion. O ganlyniad i drafodaethau yn y derbyniad a drefnwyd, mi gredaf, gan Jenny a Jonathan y llynedd, dylanwadodd rhai o’r materion a gododd yng nghyswllt Caerdydd ar drafodaethau’r grŵp am yr hyn y mae angen inni ei wneud.

Chris Martin is the chair of the Hywel Dda Local Health Board, which puts him in a pretty high-profile position in terms of discussions with the chairs of other LHBs. He is also a pharmacist. That can give you confidence that the issues that we are looking at and the work that it is taking forward will give us a consistent approach across Wales. However, we have to have that national direction while looking at local needs.

Chris Martin yw cadeirydd Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda, sy’n golygu ei fod mewn swydd gyda phroffil eithaf uchel wrth drafod gyda chadeiryddion byrddau iechyd lleol eraill. Mae hefyd yn fferyllydd. Dylai hynny beri ichi deimlo’n hyderus y bydd y materion yr ydym ni’n eu hystyried, a’r gwaith y mae’r grŵp yn ei symud yn ei flaen, yn arwain at ddull gweithredu sy’n gyson ar draws Cymru. Fodd bynnag, rhaid inni gael cyfarwyddyd cenedlaethol wrth ystyried anghenion lleol.

This group has evolved into the strategic delivery group. It did its initial work and came up with recommendations that were discussed in public at my national advisory board. All of the information concerning this is available on the board’s web pages. Yesterday, I met Community Pharmacy Wales to discuss the ongoing work, and I met

Mae’r grŵp hwn wedi datblygu’n grŵp cyflawni strategol. Cyflawnodd ei waith cychwynnol, a lluniodd argymhellion a drafodwyd yn gyhoeddus yn fy mwrdd cynghori cenedlaethol. Mae’r holl wybodaeth am hynny ar gael ar dudalennau’r bwrdd ar y we. Ddoe cyfarfûm â Fferylliaeth Gymunedol Cymru i drafod y gwaith sy’n mynd rhagddo,

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with Mel Evans from my strategic delivery board to ensure that progress is being made and that we have all parties involved in the proper discussion.

a chyfarfûm â Mel Evans o’m bwrdd cyflawni strategol i sicrhau bod cynnydd yn digwydd a’n bod yn cynnwys pawb yn y drafodaeth briodol.

I am pleased that the group’s recommendations include improvements to community pharmacy services as well as the provision of pharmaceutical services in their widest form. They show how we can integrate community pharmacy services with secondary care and the wider NHS. I am grateful for Brian Gibbons’s intervention on the pharmacy contract, in which he indicated the improvements that have been made. The contract has extended the range of enhanced services that LHBs can ask community pharmacies to provide. I understand that there are differences across Wales, but there are also fine examples of where these services are being provided.

Yr wyf yn falch fod argymhellion y grŵp yn cynnwys gwelliannau mewn gwasanaethau fferylliaeth gymunedol yn ogystal â darparu gwasanaethau fferyllol yn eu ffurf ehangaf. Maent yn dangos sut y gallwn integreiddio gwasanaethau fferylliaeth gymunedol mewn gofal eilaidd a’r GIG ehangach. Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am ymyriad Brian Gibbons am y contract fferylliaeth, lle cyfeiriodd at y gwelliannau a wnaed. Mae’r contract wedi ymestyn yr ystod o wasanaethau gwell y gall byrddau iechyd lleol ofyn i fferyllfeydd cymunedol eu darparu. Yr wyf yn deall bod gwahaniaethau ar draws Cymru, ond mae yna enghreifftiau gwych hefyd o fannau lle caiff y gwasanaethau hyn eu darparu.

The group is looking at proposals for the further development of enhanced direct services to ensure equitable access to standardised services across Wales. I take Peter’s point about the difference between services in Swansea and the Neath Port Talbot area. These are the services that are currently used throughout Wales, but none has yet been commissioned for the whole of Wales. That point that is coming out of the debate: people want to see commissioned across Wales services such as smoking cessation, which is key to the delivery of our public health agenda; emergency contraception, which is also a key area that Members have mentioned today; and substance misuse services and needle exchanges, which are key areas in the development of policy. I am pleased, following the changes in the Government, that substance misuse services have been returned to my portfolio so that I can ensure that we have the necessary collaboration between the health service and other agencies.

Mae’r grŵp yn ystyried cynigion ar gyfer datblygu gwasanaethau uniongyrchol gwell ymhellach er mwyn sicrhau gallu cael gwasanaethau’n deg a’r rheini wedi’u safoni ar draws Cymru. Derbyniaf bwynt Peter am y gwahaniaeth rhwng gwasanaethau yn Abertawe ac ardal Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Dyma’r gwasanaethau a ddefnyddir ledled Cymru ar hyn o bryd, ond nid oes yr un ohonynt wedi’u comisiynu ar gyfer Cymru gyfan eto. Dyma’r pwynt sy’n codi o’r ddadl: mae pobl am weld gwaith comisiynu gwasanaethau ledled Cymru, megis gwasanaeth i roi’r gorau i ysmygu, sy’n allweddol i wireddu ein hagenda ar iechyd y cyhoedd; dulliau brys i atal cenhedlu, sydd hefyd yn faes allweddol y mae Aelodau wedi sôn amdano heddiw; a gwasanaethau camddefnyddio sylweddau a chyfnewid nodwyddau, sy’n feysydd allweddol mewn datblygu polisi. Yn dilyn y newidiadau yn y Llywodraeth, yr wyf yn falch fod gwasanaethau camddefnyddio sylweddau wedi eu rhoi’n ôl yn fy mhortffolio er mwyn imi allu sicrhau bod y cydweithredu angenrheidiol yn digwydd rhwng y gwasanaeth iechyd ac asiantaethau eraill.

Working more efficiently to reduce waste is a key priority for me. Therefore, I have asked the group to develop specific measures to address this as I believe that community pharmacies have a vital role to play in

Mae gweithio’n fwy effeithlon i leihau gwastraff yn flaenoriaeth allweddol imi. Felly, yr wyf wedi gofyn i’r grŵp ddatblygu mesurau penodol i fynd i’r afael â hynny, oherwydd credaf fod gan fferyllfeydd

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reducing medicine wastage. This has been a key theme in the Assembly. Wasting medicines costs the NHS a massive amount of money each year. Measures to decrease the amount of repeat dispensing, moving to 28-day prescribing and running a co-ordinated national campaign against wasting medication are all recommendations of the strategic delivery group. I have asked officials to identify funding to run the campaign in the new financial year, which I am sure Members will welcome.

cymunedol rôl hanfodol wrth leihau gwastraffu meddyginiaethau. Mae’r thema hon wedi bod yn un allweddol yn y Cynulliad. Mae gwastraffu meddyginiaethau’n costio swm anferthol i’r GIG bob blwyddyn. Mae mesurau i leihau nifer yr achosion o amlgyflenwi meddyginiaethau, symud i ragnodi ar gyfer 28 diwrnod, a chael ymgyrch genedlaethol gydgysylltiedig yn erbyn gwastraffu meddyginiaethau i gyd ymhlith argymhellion y grŵp cyflawni strategol. Yr wyf wedi gofyn i swyddogion ddod o hyd i gyllid i gynnal yr ymgyrch yn y flwyddyn ariannol newydd, ac yr wyf yn siŵr y bydd Aelodau’n croesawu hynny.

In addition, the Welsh Assembly Government has recently agreed to fund a pilot scheme to identify which medicines are wasted and why. This is an important issue. This pilot will engage with a small number of community pharmacies to identify how better use can be made of identifying costs and reducing levels of medicine waste. Supporting this pilot will be a patient survey circulated by community pharmacies to identify the reasons why medicines are wasted or hoarded by people. We have examples of medicines pouring out of a cupboard in individuals’ homes, so this is a key area for us.

Yn ogystal, mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad wedi cytuno’n ddiweddar i gyllido cynllun peilot i nodi pa feddyginiaethau sy’n cael eu gwastraffu a pham. Mae hwn yn fater pwysig. Bydd y cynllun peilot hwn yn ymwneud â nifer bach o fferyllfeydd cymunedol i nodi sut y gellir mynd ati’n well i adnabod costau a lleihau lefelau o wastraffu meddyginiaethau. Caiff y cynllun peilot hwn ei ategu gan arolwg o gleifion, a ddosberthir gan fferyllfeydd cymunedol, i ddarganfod y rhesymau pam mae pobl yn gwastraffu neu’n casglu meddyginiaethau. Mae gennym enghreifftiau o gypyrddau sy’n orlawn o feddyginiaethau yng nghartrefi unigolion, felly, mae’n faes allweddol inni.

As I mentioned earlier, the task and finish group has evolved into my strategic delivery group to ensure that all of the recommendations are implemented. The final report went to the national advisory board on 18 January and the work streams continue to be taken forward in consultation with the key stakeholders. If it would be helpful, I would be more than happy to issue a note to Members on these issues, to save them from having to trawl the internet and so on. I am confident that the significant amount of work being taken forward demonstrates the importance of community pharmacies as an integral part of health provision.

Fel y soniais yn gynharach, mae’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen wedi datblygu’n grŵp cyflawni strategol imi, er mwyn sicrhau gweithredu’r holl argymhellion. Aeth yr adroddiad terfynol at y bwrdd cynghori cenedlaethol ar 18 Ionawr, ac mae’r ffrydiau gwaith yn parhau i gael eu symud ymlaen drwy ymgynghori â’r rhanddeiliaid allweddol. Os byddai hynny’n ddefnyddiol, byddwn yn fwy na pharod i ddosbarthu nodyn i Aelodau ar y materion hyn, i’w harbed rhag gorfod chwilota ar y rhyngrwyd, ac yn y blaen. Yr wyf yn hyderus bod y gwaith sylweddol sy’n mynd rhagddo yn dangos pwysigrwydd fferyllfeydd cymunedol fel rhan annatod o ddarpariaeth iechyd.

Turning to the amendments, amendment 2 on the rural health plan is quite unnecessary, as I have established an implementation group to ensure that the actions in that plan are taken

I droi at y gwelliannau, mae gwelliant 2 am y cynllun iechyd gwledig yn hollol ddiangen, gan fy mod wedi sefydlu grŵp gweithredu i sicrhau bod y camau gweithredu yn y cynllun

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forward, including those pertaining to pharmacy services. Given that a key area for the implementation of the rural health plan involves the Hywel Dda Local Health Board and that Chris Martin, its chair, is also the chair of my pharmacy group, I have no hesitation in assuring you that those matters will be dealt with properly.

hwnnw’n mynd rhagddynt, gan gynnwys y rheini sy’n ymwneud â gwasanaethau fferylliaeth. O gofio bod maes allweddol ar gyfer gweithredu’r cynllun iechyd gwledig yn cynnwys Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Hywel Dda, a bod Chris Martin, ei gadeirydd, hefyd yn gadeirydd fy ngrŵp fferylliaeth, gallaf eich sicrhau’n ddiamheuaeth y bydd y materion hynny’n cael sylw priodol.

Amendment 3 is about pharmacist prescribers. This is also unnecessary, because non-medical prescribing has been supported in the NHS in Wales for at least a decade to my knowledge. We have approximately 100 trained supplementary and independent pharmacist prescribers across Wales, and the local health boards held a conference yesterday to identify ways of making more use of them, and that is important.

Mae gwelliant 3 yn ymwneud â fferyllwyr-ragnodwyr. Mae’r gwelliant hwnnw hefyd yn ddiangen, oherwydd mae’r GIG yng Nghymru yn gefnogol ers dros ddegawd, hyd y gwn i, i waith rhagnodi gan bobl nad ydynt yn feddygon. Mae gennym tua 100 o fferyllwyr-ragnodwyr ychwanegol ac annibynnol cymwys ledled Cymru, a chynhaliodd y byrddau iechyd lleol gynhadledd ddoe i nodi ffyrdd i’w defnyddio’n fwy helaeth, ac mae hynny’n bwysig.

I support the Government’s amendment 1 because, although it would be nice to say that the savings could go to community pharmacies, with the challenging budgetary situation that I have to deal with, I have to look at any savings that I get from anywhere in the context of the overall NHS budget.

Cefnogaf welliant 1 gan y Llywodraeth oherwydd, er y byddai’n braf dweud y gallai’r arbedion fynd i fferyllfeydd cymunedol, o gofio’r sefyllfa heriol y mae’n rhaid imi ymdrin â hi o ran y gyllideb, rhaid imi ystyried unrhyw arbedion a gaf o unrhyw gyfeiriad yng nghyd-destun cyllideb gyffredinol y GIG.

I must say that the debate has been interesting and constructive. We all have excellent relations with community pharmacists, and we want them to do more. It is important that the health service and community pharmacies work well together for the health of the people of Wales.

Rhaid imi ddweud bod y ddadl wedi bod yn ddiddorol ac yn adeiladol. Mae gennym bob un berthynas ardderchog â fferyllwyr cymunedol, ac yr ydym am iddynt wneud mwy. Mae’n bwysig i’r gwasanaeth iechyd a fferyllfeydd cymunedol gydweithio’n dda â’i gilydd er mwyn iechyd pobl Cymru.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I thank all those who have contributed to this debate. Based on a quick tally, I would say that 20 per cent of all Members have contributed, which shows the strength of people’s feeling on this subject. I see the DPO looking at her list, but I can tell her that 10 Members have contributed to this debate, along with the Minister. That is no mean feat, and it shows the strong role that community pharmacies play in the communities that Members represent.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Diolch i bawb sydd wedi cyfrannu at y ddadl hon. Ar sail cyfrif cyflym, byddwn yn dweud bod 20 y cant o’r holl Aelodau wedi cyfrannu, sy’n dangos cryfder teimlad pobl ar y pwnc hwn. Gwelaf fod y Dirprwy Lywydd yn edrych ar ei rhestr, ond gallaf ddweud wrthi bod 10 Aelod wedi cyfrannu i’r ddadl hon, ynghyd â’r Gweinidog. Mae hynny’n dipyn o gamp, ac mae’n dangos rôl gref fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn y cymunedau y mae Aelodau’n eu cynrychioli.

I will just touch on a couple of the points that were raised in the debate. Brian Gibbons

Hoffwn gyffwrdd â rhai o’r pwyntiau a godwyd yn y ddadl. Gwnaeth Brian Gibbons

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made a substantive contribution, thanks to his medical background, highlighting some of the concerns that he faces in his constituency. He has raised these issues with the Minister, as well as issues to do with regulation and the importance that regulation be brought up to scratch. In an intervention from Jonathan Morgan, he was taken to task over the length of time that it can take to bring these regulations forward—some four to five years. That, surely, is not responsive in adapting to the situation as required.

gyfraniad pwysig, diolch i’w gefndir meddygol, a thynnodd sylw at rai o’r pryderon y mae’n eu hwynebu yn ei etholaeth. Mae wedi codi’r materion hyn gyda’r Gweinidog, yn ogystal â materion rheoleiddio, a phwysigrwydd sicrhau bod gwaith rheoleiddio cystal ag y dylai fod. Mewn ymyriad gan Jonathan Morgan, fe’i galwyd i gyfrif am yr amser y gall ei gymryd i gyflwyno’r rheoliadau hyn—rhyw bedair i bum mlynedd. Rhaid nad yw hynny’n ffordd ymatebol i addasu i’r sefyllfa yn ôl yr angen.

In moving the Lib Dem amendments to our motion, which we support, Peter Black highlighted the importance of pharmacists in giving advice on tackling substance misuse and in relaying the anti-drugs message. He also highlighted the discrepancy in the availability of certain services in his region. That led to the point of the debate about understanding the findings of the task and finish group. We were taken to task by Helen Mary Jones, however, over the issue of requesting national guidance and not allowing local input. I suggest to Helen that it was she who got it wrong, because, when the Minister responded, she clearly identified the direction of travel: national direction with local choices. It is a fact that WAG provides the resource and the money. Surely, it is an aspiration to have some sort of corporate vision to drive that need while respecting local choice.

Wrth gynnig gwelliannau’r Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol i’n cynnig, ac yr ydym yn cefnogi’r gwelliannau hynny, tynnodd Peter Black sylw at bwysigrwydd fferyllwyr wrth roi cyngor ar fynd i’r afael â chamddefnyddio sylweddau a chyfleu’r neges yn erbyn cyffuriau. Yn ogystal, tynnodd sylw at yr anghysondeb yn y graddau y mae rhai gwasanaethau ar gael yn ei ranbarth. Arweiniodd hynny at y pwynt yn y ddadl am ddeall darganfyddiadau’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen. Cawsom ein galw i gyfrif gan Helen Mary Jones, fodd bynnag, ar fater gofyn am arweiniad cenedlaethol a pheidio â chaniatáu mewnbwn lleol. Awgrymaf wrth Helen mai hi oedd yn anghywir, oherwydd pan ymatebodd y Gweinidog nododd yn glir i ba gyfeiriad yr ydym yn mynd: cyfarwyddyd cenedlaethol gyda dewisiadau lleol. Mae’n ffaith fod Llywodraeth y Cynulliad yn darparu’r adnodd a’r arian. Rhaid mai’r dyhead yw cael rhyw fath o weledigaeth gorfforaethol i yrru’r angen hwnnw gan barchu dewis lleol.

Helen Mary Jones: With respect, Andrew, it is you who is a bit muddled up here. I was not suggesting that the Minister was getting the approach wrong. I was suggesting that you could not have your cake and eat it by asking her for national direction one day and then criticising her for giving too much of it on another. I am perfectly content with the Minister’s way forward; I was just highlighting what I perceived as an inconsistency in yours.

Helen Mary Jones: Gyda phob parch, Andrew, chi sydd wedi drysu braidd yma. Nid oeddwn yn awgrymu bod dull gweithredu’r Gweinidog yn anghywir. Yr oeddwn yn awgrymu na allech ei chael hi’r ddwy ffordd drwy ofyn un funud iddi am gyfarwyddyd cenedlaethol a’i beirniadu’r funud nesaf am roi gormod o gyfarwyddyd. Yr wyf yn hollol fodlon â’r llwybr a gymer y Gweinidog; y cyfan yr oeddwn yn ei wneud oedd tynnu sylw at yr hyn a ystyriwn yn anghysondeb yn eich llwybr chi.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I am sure that we shall all get muddled on many occasions in many debates to come, Helen Mary. The fact of the matter is this. If you are a provider, and the

Andrew R.T. Davies: Yr wyf yn siŵr y byddwn i gyd yn drysu’n aml eto mewn dadleuon yn y dyfodol, Helen Mary. Y ffaith amdani yw hyn: os ydych yn ddarparwr, ac

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person who is providing you with the resource for that provision is not giving you a feel for what you are doing, that will cause confusion. That highlights how certain services are available to certain sectors of society but not to others, as has been demonstrated by Members across the Chamber. Surely we should be making use of the entrepreneurial spirit that my colleague, Nick Ramsay, touched on, which is to be found in community pharmacies, as well as pharmacists’ ability to develop modern and effective healthcare solutions for people’s lifestyles in the twenty-first century.

os nad yw’r sawl sy’n rhoi’r adnodd ar gyfer y ddarpariaeth honno yn rhoi syniad ichi o’r hyn yr ydych yn ei wneud, bydd dryswch. Mae hynny’n egluro sut mae rhai gwasanaethau ar gael i ambell sector mewn cymdeithas ond nid i eraill, fel y dangosodd Aelodau ar draws y Siambr. Siawns na ddylem fod yn defnyddio’r ysbryd entrepreneuraidd y soniodd fy nghydweithiwr, Nick Ramsay, amdano ac sydd i’w weld mewn fferyllfeydd cymunedol, yn ogystal â gallu fferyllwyr i ddatblygu atebion modern ac effeithiol i broblemau gofal iechyd ar gyfer ffyrdd o fyw pobl yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain.

4.50 p.m.

Jenny Randerson identified the deficit in Cardiff and touched on the problems faced by the advice clinics on the Cardiff Royal Infirmary site. Various people have suggested that the advice provided in the secondary sector could be offered in community pharmacies, in a far friendlier environment. Jenny mentioned that one individual had been trying to get advice but was told that there was a week’s delay. I am sure that the Minister heard that and will be looking into it.

Nododd Jenny Randerson y diffyg yng Nghaerdydd, a soniodd am y problemau sy’n wynebu clinigau cynghori ar safle Ysbyty Brenhinol Caerdydd. Mae amryw wedi awgrymu y gallai’r cyngor a ddarperir yn y sector eilaidd gael ei gynnig mewn fferyllfeydd cymunedol, mewn amgylchedd tipyn mwy cyfeillgar. Soniodd Jenny fod un unigolyn wedi bod yn ceisio cael cyngor ond iddo gael gwybod bod wythnos o oedi. Yr wyf yn siŵr bod y Gweinidog wedi clywed hynny ac y bydd yn ymchwilio i’r mater.

I had a meeting with the chair and chief executive of the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board last week, and I take comfort from the fact that they are addressing the issue as a key priority. I was considerably heartened by that.

Cyfarfûm â chadeirydd a phrif weithredwr Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Prifysgol Caerdydd a’r Fro yr wythnos diwethaf, a chaf fy nghysuro gan y ffaith eu bod yn mynd i’r afael â’r broblem fel blaenoriaeth allweddol. Cefais fy nghalonogi’n fawr gan hynny.

My colleague, Jonathan Morgan, touched on the contracts, on regulation, and on the time that it takes to move these issues forward. The sentiment and the will seem to be there, but, sadly, we seem to be moving at a glacial speed when we could be moving forward far quicker to tackle some of the issues that people face. When we move forward, let us ensure that the points raised today are taken on board and addressed. Members would welcome the opportunity to receive a ministerial note so that they can see what the task and finish group is doing. Above all, community pharmacists and health professionals would appreciate the opportunity to see the finished recommendations of the task and finish

Soniodd fy nghydweithiwr, Jonathan Morgan, am y contractau, am reoleiddio, ac am yr amser a gymer i symud y materion hyn yn eu blaen. Ymddengys fod yr ewyllys a’r teimlad yn bodoli, ond ymddengys, yn anffodus, ein bod yn symud yn boenus o araf pan allem fod yn symud ymlaen ynghynt o lawer i fynd i’r afael â rhai o’r problemau sy’n wynebu pobl. Pan symudwn ymlaen, gadewch inni sicrhau bod y pwyntiau a godwyd heddiw’n cael eu hystyried ac yn cael sylw. Byddai Aelodau’n croesawu’r cyfle i gael nodyn gan y Gweinidog er mwyn gallu gweld beth y mae’r grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen yn ei wneud. Yn anad dim, byddai fferyllwyr cymunedol a gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd yn

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group, because, as various Members have said, the group seems to have moved more into strategic development and is delivering on the points, but we need to understand the stages that we are moving through so that we can see the progress on the ground.

gwerthfawrogi’r cyfle i weld argymhellion terfynol y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen, oherwydd, fel y dywedodd amrywiol Aelodau, ymddengys fod y grŵp wedi symud ymhellach i faes datblygu strategol a’i fod yn gweithredu ar y pwyntiau. Ond mae angen inni ddeall y cyfnodau yr ydym yn symud drwyddynt fel y gallwn weld y cynnydd ar lawr gwlad.

I welcome everyone’s participation in this debate. I hope that Members will feel able to support the motion. I do not think that I heard the Minister say that the Government would reject our motion, although it has tabled an amendment to it. We are unable to accept the Government’s amendment 1, as it seeks to eliminate the point about ring-fencing the savings achieved by better practice to develop a more comprehensive service, which would mean that people could better deal with their lifestyle choices in the twenty-first century. I thank all Members for contributing to what has been a good debate, and I urge support for our motion.

Croesawaf gyfranogiad pawb yn y ddadl hon. Gobeithio y bydd Aelodau’n teimlo y gallant gefnogi’r cynnig. Ni chredaf imi glywed y Gweinidog yn dweud y byddai’r Llywodraeth yn gwrthod ein cynnig, er iddi gyflwyno gwelliant iddo. Ni allwn dderbyn gwelliant 1 gan y Llywodraeth, gan ei fod yn ceisio dileu’r pwynt ar neilltuo’r arbedion a wneir drwy well arferion i ddatblygu gwasanaeth mwy cynhwysfawr. Byddai hynny’n golygu y gallai pobl ymdopi’n well â’u dewis o ffordd o fyw yn yr unfed ganrif ar hugain. Diolch i’r holl Aelodau am gyfrannu at ddadl sydd wedi bod yn un dda, ac anogaf bawb i gefnogi ein cynnig.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there is an objection. Therefore, I defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw ein bod yn cytuno’r cynnig heb ei ddiwygio. A oes unrhyw wrthwynebiad? Gwelaf fod. Caiff y bleidlais ei gohirio tan y cyfnod pleidleisio, felly.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Dadl Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol CymruThe Welsh Liberal Democrats Debate

Anhwylder Straen Wedi TrawmaPost-traumatic Stress Disorder

The Deputy Presiding Officer: I have selected amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Alun Cairns.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Yr wyf wedi dethol gwelliannau 1, 2 a 3 yn enw Alun Cairns.

Peter Black: I move that Peter Black: Cynigiaf fod

the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. notes the limited provision of specialist treatment for sufferers of post-traumatic stress disorder in Wales; and

1. yn nodi’r ddarpariaeth gyfyngedig o driniaeth arbenigol ar gyfer dioddefwyr anhwylder straen wedi trawma yng Nghymru; a

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2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to recognise the prevalence of PTSD in Wales and to identify ways of extending treatment provision to those in need. (NDM4403)

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gydnabod nifer yr achosion o anhwylder straen wedi trawma yng Nghymru a chanfod ffyrdd o ehangu’r driniaeth a ddarperir ar gyfer y rheini sydd mewn angen. (NDM4403)

Many questions have been asked about this topic in the Chamber, and it has also been the subject of a short debate by Mark Isherwood. I welcome the amendments tabled by the Conservatives, which underline our concerns about the patchy provision of care for specialist post-traumatic stress disorder.

Mae llawer o gwestiynau wedi’u gofyn am y mater hwn yn y Siambr, a bu’n destun dadl fer gan Mark Isherwood hefyd. Yr wyf yn croesawu’r gwelliannau a gyflwynwyd gan y Ceidwadwyr, sy’n pwysleisio ein pryderon am natur ddiffygiol y ddarpariaeth gofal arbenigol ar gyfer anhwylder straen wedi trawma.

It is also worth noting that there are no Government amendments, which I hope is indicative of the Minister’s support for the motion and of her acknowledgement of the pressing need to ensure the provision and extension of appropriate support to all who are in need. On 20 January, in response to points raised in the short debate, the Minister said that she recognised the need for appropriate and responsive services for people with PTSD. She also quoted from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines on PTSD, and seems fully aware of what should be provided to anyone presenting themselves to a GP with these symptoms. For example, as is set out in the NICE guidelines, up to 30 per cent of people exposed to a stressful event or situation of an exceptionally threatening or catastrophic nature will go on to develop PTSD symptoms.

Mae’n werth sylwi hefyd nad yw’r Llywodraeth wedi cyflwyno gwelliannau, a gobeithio bod hynny’n arwydd o gefnogaeth y Gweinidog i’r cynnig ac yn arwydd ei bod yn cydnabod bod angen dybryd am sicrhau bod cymorth priodol yn cael ei ddarparu a’i estyn i bawb sydd mewn angen. Ar 20 Ionawr, mewn ymateb i bwyntiau a godwyd yn y ddadl fer, dywedodd y Gweinidog ei bod yn cydnabod bod angen gwasanaethau priodol ac ymatebol i bobl ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Dyfynnodd hefyd o ganllawiau’r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth Glinigol ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma, ac ymddengys ei bod yn gwbl ymwybodol o’r hyn y dylid ei ddarparu i bwy bynnag sy’n mynd at feddyg teulu oherwydd y symptomau hyn. Er enghraifft, fel y mae canllawiau NICE yn ei osod allan, bydd hyd at 30 y cant o bobl sy’n dod i gysylltiad â digwyddiad sy’n peri straen, neu sefyllfa o natur eithriadol o fygythiol neu drychinebus, yn mynd yn eu blaen i ddatblygu symptomau anhwylder straen wedi trawma.

The difficulty and the reason why this motion is being proposed is that, although the Minister knows what should be happening, front-line delivery is inadequate, and individuals and their families are suffering as a result. I know a number of people who have suffered from PTSD, some of whom were former servicemen. One of them, tragically, died as a result of the side-effects of that condition. Those who do suffer from it go through what can only be described as hell. Many experience flashbacks, nightmares and depression associated with an event, although it may have happened 10 or more years ago.

Er bod y Gweinidog yn gwybod beth a ddylai fod yn digwydd, yr anhawster yw nad yw’r hyn a gyflenwir drwy wasanaethau rheng flaen yn ddigonol, a bod unigolion a’u teuluoedd yn dioddef o ganlyniad, a dyna pam yr ydym yn dod â’r cynnig hwn gerbron. Yr wyf yn adnabod nifer o bobl sydd wedi dioddef o anhwylder straen wedi trawma, rai ohonynt yn gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog. Bu farw un ohonynt, yn drasig, o ganlyniad i sgil-effeithiau’r cyflwr. Uffern yw’r unig air i ddisgrifio’r hyn y pobl sy’n dioddef o’r cyflwr yn mynd drwyddo. Bydd llawer ohonynt yn dioddef ôl-fflachiau, hunllefau ac

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They feel that they do not want to go out. They avoid anything that can be associated with the experience, which could be the sound of a police siren or something on the news. They can no longer sleep and cannot explain why, and they do not understand what is happening to them. Relationships break down as they withdraw. They go to the doctor’s and are told that the waiting time to see a counsellor is about 18 months. The GP might give them antidepressants. They cannot see a specialist because there is not one in the area in which they live. They could pay for counselling themselves, but it is a long way away and they are worried about the travelling, and, if they cannot do their job anymore, they would have trouble paying for it. That is the reality that people who have PTSD in Wales face, and we need to change it, if at all possible. The person whom I knew who had PTSD broke down every time you referred to the event that led to it. He degenerated into alcoholism and, tragically, died as a result. I want to avoid that happening to others, as far as is possible.

iselder ysbryd yn gysylltiedig â digwyddiad, er bod 10 mlynedd a mwy efallai ers iddo ddigwydd. Maent yn teimlo nad ydynt am fynd allan. Maent yn osgoi unrhyw beth y gellir ei gysylltu â’r profiad, a allai fod yn sŵn seiren heddlu neu’n rhywbeth ar y newyddion. Ni allant gysgu mwyach, ac ni allant egluro pam, ac nid ydynt yn deall yr hyn sy’n digwydd iddynt. Mae eu perthynas â phobl eraill yn chwalu wrth iddynt fynd i’w cragen. Ânt at y meddyg a chael gwybod ei bod yn rhaid aros tua 18 mis i weld cwnselydd. Efallai y bydd y meddyg teulu’n rhoi tabledi gwrthiselder iddynt. Ni allant weld arbenigwr am nad oes un yn yr ardal lle maent yn byw. Gallent dalu am wasanaeth cwnsela eu hunain, ond mae hwnnw ymhell i ffwrdd a byddant yn poeni am orfod teithio, ac os na allant barhau i weithio, byddent yn cael trafferth talu amdano. Dyna yw realiti’r sefyllfa y mae pobl ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn ei hwynebu yng Nghymru, ac mae angen inni ei newid os yw hynny’n bosibl. Byddai’r dyn yr oeddwn i’n ei adnabod gydag anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn dechrau crio bob tro wrth gyfeirio at y digwyddiad a arweiniodd at yr anhwylder. Aeth yn gaeth i alcohol, ac, yn drasig, bu farw o ganlyniad. Yr wyf am osgoi gweld hynny’n digwydd i bobl eraill, cyn belled ag y bo modd.

What we can say is that there is now scope for funding an efficient and much-needed PTSD service in Wales. A pilot scheme is currently under way in Cardiff. It is due to end very soon, and no doubt a review will be undertaken of its success. It should be pointed out that that pilot scheme cost about £135,000 and is only part-funded by the Welsh Assembly Government. It provided services to areas covered by the Cardiff and Vale NHS Trust and the Cwm Taf NHS Trust. The pilot caters to the needs of veterans, most of whom are living within the Cardiff and Cwm Taf areas. It is also worth noting that a great many Welsh citizens have served and continue to serve in the armed forces, and that Wales is considered to be a major recruiting ground not only for the Welsh Guards but for all the services. As a result of the many wars that Welsh servicemen have been involved in, such as the Falklands, the two wars in Iraq, and Afghanistan, many servicemen and ex-

Yr hyn y gallwn ei ddweud yw bod lle’n awr i gyllido gwasanaeth effeithlon ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma sydd â galw mawr amdano yng Nghymru. Mae cynllun peilot ar waith yng Nghaerdydd ar hyn o bryd. Mae disgwyl iddo ddod i ben yn fuan iawn, ac mae’n siŵr y bydd adolygiad o’i lwyddiant. Dylid nodi bod y cynllun peilot dan sylw wedi costio oddeutu £135,000, ac mai rhan yn unig o’r arian hwnnw a ddarperir gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Yr oedd yn darparu gwasanaethau mewn ardaloedd a gynhwysir gan Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Caerdydd a’r Fro ac Ymddiriedolaeth GIG Cwm Taf. Mae’r cynllun peilot yn darparu ar gyfer anghenion cyn-filwyr, y rhan fwyaf ohonynt yn byw yn ardaloedd Caerdydd a Chwm Taf. Mae’n werth nodi hefyd fod nifer fawr o ddinasyddion Cymru wedi gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog, a’u bod yn dal i wneud hynny, a bod Cymru’n cael ei hystyried yn lle pwysig i recriwtio, nid yn unig ar gyfer y Gwarchodlu Cymreig ond ar gyfer y lluoedd

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servicemen are suffering from this condition. We owe it to them to put in place the services that are needed to try to help them to cope with the stress, anxiety and depression that arises from some of the experiences that they have had.

arfog i gyd. Oherwydd y rhyfeloedd niferus y mae aelodau’r lluoedd arfog o Gymru wedi cymryd rhan ynddynt, megis rhyfel Ynysoedd Falkland, y ddau ryfel yn Irac a’r rhyfel yn Affganistan, mae nifer o aelodau a chyn-aelodau’r lluoedd arfog yn dioddef gan y cyflwr hwn. Mae’n ddyletswydd arnom i ddarparu’r gwasanaethau y mae arnynt eu hangen, er mwyn ceisio’u helpu i ymdopi â’r straen, y pryder a’r iselder ysbryd sy’n deillio o rai o’r profiadau y maent wedi’u cael.

Janet Ryder: I think that everybody would share your concerns over this particular issue, but you are stressing that we should be paying for this. Do you not think that the MOD itself has a duty in this regard? The MOD commissioned these young people into the armed forces. It spends millions of pounds and months and months training them, but it decommissions them in just 30 seconds—the length of time taken to sign a piece of paper. Do you not think that the Ministry of Defence has a duty to those young people to decommission them properly, with thorough counselling?

Janet Ryder: Credaf y byddai pawb, fel chi, yn pryderu am y mater penodol hwn, ond yr ydych yn pwysleisio y dylem ni fod yn talu am hyn. Oni chredwch fod gan y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ei hun ddyletswydd i’r perwyl hwn? Y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn a gomisiynodd y bobl ifanc hyn i ymuno â’r lluoedd arfog. Mae’n gwario miliynau o bunnoedd ac yn treulio misoedd ar fisoedd yn eu hyfforddi, ond mae’n eu datgomisiynu mewn rhyw 30 eiliad—yr amser a gymer i lofnodi darn o bapur. Oni chredwch fod gan y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ddyletswydd tuag at y bobl ifanc dan sylw i’w datgomisiynu’n iawn, gan gynnig gwasanaeth cwnsela trylwyr iddynt?

Peter Black: That is a point well made, Janet. I think that you have to note that PTSD goes beyond servicemen, but when I used the word ‘we’ I was referring to the state as opposed to the Welsh Assembly Government. However, you are absolutely right. In my view, the Ministry of Defence often supports soldiers only so far. Soldiers who come back from a conflict and who are incapacitated either physically or mentally do not get the support that they deserve from the Ministry of Defence. It is a problem that we—and I now refer to the National Assembly and the Welsh Government—end up picking up the tab for the support that we have to put in place through the NHS. We have a UK-wide NHS funded from taxpayers’ money, just as the Ministry of Defence is funded from taxpayers’ money. It is down to the taxpayer, I think, to decide that the support should be put in place. The problem seems to be that that support is not available, whether it comes from MOD funds, Welsh Assembly Government funds, or English health service funds. That is the problem that we are encountering.

Peter Black: Mae gennych bwynt da, Janet. Credaf ei bod yn rhaid ichi sylwi nad aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog yn unig sy’n dioddef anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Ond wrth gyfeirio atom ni, cyfeirio’r oeddwn at y wladwriaeth ac nid at Lywodraeth y Cynulliad. Fodd bynnag, yr ydych yn llygad eich lle. Yn fy marn i, dim ond hyn a hyn o gymorth y mae’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn yn aml yn ei roi i filwyr. Nid yw milwyr sy’n dod yn ôl o ryfel, sy’n analluog yn gorfforol neu’n feddyliol, yn cael y cymorth y maent yn ei haeddu gan y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn. Mae’n broblem yr ydym ni—a chyfeiriaf yn awr at y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol a Llywodraeth Cymru—yn gorfod talu amdani trwy’r cymorth y mae’n rhaid inni ei ddarparu trwy’r GIG. Mae gennym GIG sy’n gweithredu ar draws y DU ac a gyllidir gan arian trethdalwyr, fel y caiff y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ei chyllido gan arian trethdalwyr. Credaf mai’r trethdalwyr sydd i benderfynu a ddylid darparu’r cymorth. Y broblem, mae’n debyg, yw nad yw’r cymorth hwnnw ar gael, o goffrau’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn, na choffrau Llywodraeth y Cynulliad na

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choffrau gwasanaeth iechyd Lloegr. Dyna’r broblem yr ydym yn dod ar ei thraws.

There are many people who suffer from PTSD who have not been in the services, but who have carried out other duties on behalf of the public and have had shocking experiences that have led to their getting this particular illness. The Cardiff pilot that I was referring to has commissioned services from Combat Stress, a charitable organisation set up to respond to the needs of returning ex-servicemen and women who have mental health difficulties. In a sense, therefore, the pilot scheme has been targeted at ex-servicemen. The Welsh Government provided Combat Stress with about £8,200 a year, on average, between 2005 and 2008, and £15,200 from 2008 to the present. However, in 2008-09, 272 of Combat Stress’s clients were resident in Wales and cost the taxpayer a total of £617,000.

Mae nifer o bobl sydd ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma nad ydynt wedi bod yn y lluoedd arfog ond sydd wedi cyflawni dyletswyddau eraill ar ran y cyhoedd, ac wedi cael profiadau brawychus sydd wedi arwain at y salwch penodol hwn. Mae’r cynllun peilot yng Nghaerdydd y cyfeiriais ato wedi comisiynu gwasanaethau gan Combat Stress, elusen a sefydlwyd i ymateb i anghenion cyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog sy’n dychwelyd adref ac sydd ag anawsterau iechyd meddwl. Mewn ffordd, felly, mae’r cynllun peilot yn targedu cyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog. Rhwng 2005 a 2008 cafodd Combat Stress oddeutu £8,200 y flwyddyn ar gyfartaledd gan Lywodraeth Cymru, a £15,200 y flwyddyn er 2008. Fodd bynnag, yn 2008-09 yr oedd 272 o gleientiaid Combat Stress yn byw yng Nghymru a chyfanswm y gost i’r trethdalwr yn £617,000.

5.00 p.m.

In contrast, in May 2009, the Scottish Government committed £2.8 million to improve veterans’ access to specialist mental health via Combat Stress. That underlines the stark difference between what is happening elsewhere, or in Scotland anyway, and what is happening in Wales and why we feel that this motion is necessary to highlight the situation of victims of PTSD and the resources that are available to help to treat them. I hope that the discrepancy between what is being done for PTSD sufferers in Wales and what is being done in Scotland can be addressed at some stage. I hope that you and the Government will support the motion, Minister, by voting for it later.

Gellir gwrthgyferbynnu hynny â’r £2.8 miliwn a neilltuwyd gan Lywodraeth yr Alban ym mis Mai 2009 i wella gallu cyn-filwyr i gael gofal iechyd meddwl arbenigol trwy Combat Stress. Mae hynny’n pwysleisio’r gwahaniaeth amlwg rhwng yr hyn sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru a’r hyn sy’n digwydd mewn mannau eraill, neu yn yr Alban p’un bynnag. Mae’n pwysleisio pam y teimlwn fod y cynnig hwn yn angenrheidiol i dynnu sylw at sefyllfa’r rheini sy’n dioddef gan anhwylder straen wedi trawma, ac i dynnu sylw at yr adnoddau sydd ar gael i helpu eu trin. Gobeithio, rywbryd, y bydd modd mynd i’r afael â’r anghysondeb rhwng yr hyn a wneir dros ddioddefwyr anhwylder straen wedi trawma yng Nghymru a’r hyn a wneir yn yr Alban. Gobeithio y byddwch chi a’r Llywodraeth yn cefnogi’r cynnig, Weinidog, trwy bleidleisio o’i blaid yn ddiweddarach.

Andrew R.T. Davies: I move the following amendments in the name of Alun Cairns. Amendment 1: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Andrew R.T. Davies: Cynigiaf y gwelliannau canlynol yn enw Alun Cairns. Gwelliant 1: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

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notes the challenges facing specialist healthcare services, such as PTSD, in the light of recruitment pressures.

yn nodi’r heriau sy’n wynebu gwasanaethau gofal iechyd arbenigol, megis anhwylder straen wedi trawma, yn sgîl y pwysau ar recriwtio.

Amendment 2: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 2: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to identify specific and sustainable funding streams within the health budget to tackle recruitment and training shortfalls in order to improve specialist treatment for sufferers of PTSD in Wales.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i nodi ffrydiau cyllido penodol a chynaliadwy o fewn y gyllideb iechyd i fynd i’r afael â’r diffygion mewn recriwtio a hyfforddiant er mwyn gwella'r driniaeth arbenigol ar gyfer y rheini sy’n dioddef anhwylder straen wedi trawma yng Nghymru.

Amendment 3: add a new point at the end of the motion:

Gwelliant 3: ychwanegu pwynt newydd ar ddiwedd y cynnig:

calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to commission research into the incidence and range of PTSD in Wales and to deliver services in partnership with the independent sector to meet the needs identified.

yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gomisiynu ymchwil i ystod a nifer yr achosion o anhwylder straen wedi trawma yng Nghymru, ac i gyflenwi gwasanaethau mewn partneriaeth â’r sector annibynnol i ddiwallu’r anghenion hynny a nodwyd.

I welcome the motion tabled in the name of Peter Black. My colleague, Mark Isherwood, has campaigned long and vigorously on this issue and he deserves enormous credit for the way that he has highlighted the situation that many ex-servicemen, and also people in the general population face, when they have to deal with this condition. It is a traumatic condition to deal with, by its very nature, and as its title reminds us, you have to have gone through a traumatic event to suffer from the disorder. Given the current situation and the increase in the number of combat situations involving the armed services, it is inevitable that there will be increasing demands on our health and social care services in Wales. The increased demands placed on the health service because of the conflict in Afghanistan, for example, have been highlighted graphically today. It is vital that there are clear funding streams and that there is a clear pattern of recruitment and retention of staff in the NHS in Wales to ensure that we can offer the best possible advice and assistance to the people who find themselves in this difficult and challenging situation.

Yr wyf yn croesawu’r cynnig a gyflwynwyd yn enw Peter Black. Mae fy nghydweithiwr, Mark Isherwood, wedi ymgyrchu’n ddygn ac yn egnïol ar y mater hwn, ac mae’n haeddu clod mawr am y modd y mae wedi tynnu sylw at y sefyllfa y mae nifer o gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, a phobl yn y boblogaeth gyffredinol hefyd, yn ei hwynebu pan fydd yn rhaid iddynt ymdopi â’r cyflwr hwn. Mae natur y cyflwr yn golygu ei fod yn un trawmatig i ymdopi ag ef, ac fel y mae ei enw’n ein hatgoffa, mae’r sawl sy’n dioddef wedi gorfod mynd trwy ddigwyddiad trawmatig. O gofio’r sefyllfa sydd ohoni, a’r cynnydd yn nifer y sefyllfaoedd lle mae’r lluoedd arfog yn rhan o wrthdaro, mae’n anochel y bydd galwadau cynyddol ar ein gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol yng Nghymru. Tynnwyd sylw’n glir iawn heddiw at y galwadau cynyddol y mae’r gwrthdaro yn Affganistan, er enghraifft, yn eu rhoi ar y gwasanaeth iechyd. Mae’n hanfodol cael ffrydiau cyllido clir, a phatrwm clir o recriwtio staff i’r GIG yng Nghymru a’u cadw, er mwyn sicrhau y gallwn gynnig y cyngor a’r cymorth gorau posibl i’r bobl sy’n eu cael eu hunain yn y sefyllfa anodd a heriol hon.

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It is a fact that 30 per cent of people who go through a traumatic event will have post-traumatic stress disorder in some shape or form that will require some form of intervention. The consequences are mainly mental health issues that lead to a downward spiral, as Peter highlighted when he talked about his personal circumstances and how his friend ended up losing their life, because of the situation in which they found themselves. If we could have a more strategic and planned approach to help and assist—because people are often looking for help and assistance rather than a complete takeover of their lives—we could start the rebuilding and reintegration process.

Mae’n ffaith y bydd 30 y cant o bobl sy’n mynd trwy ddigwyddiad trawmatig yn cael rhyw fath o anhwylder straen wedi trawma a fydd yn gofyn am ryw fath o ymyriad. Problemau iechyd meddwl yn bennaf yw’r canlyniadau, sy’n arwain at anawsterau cynyddol, fel y tynnwyd sylw gan Peter wrth sôn am ei amgylchiadau personol a’r modd y collodd ei gyfaill ei fywyd, yn y pen draw, oherwydd y sefyllfa yr oedd ynddi. O gael dull gweithredu mwy strategol a chynlluniedig i helpu a chynorthwyo—oherwydd am help a chymorth y bydd pobl yn aml yn chwilio, yn hytrach na rhywbeth i reoli eu bywyd yn llwyr—gallem ddechrau’r broses ailadeiladu ac ailintegreiddio.

It should be noted that, in Scotland, there has been an increase in the resources made available to tackle the challenges of post-traumatic stress disorder. I do not doubt for a minute that that is because a higher percentage of people join the armed forces from Scotland, which has put pressure on the Scottish Government to put resources into this. Wales has a noble tradition, certainly in the field of armed service recruitment, of providing soldiers for the various services in the British army.

Dylid sylwi bod cynnydd wedi bod yn yr adnoddau a ddarperir i fynd i’r afael â heriau anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn yr Alban. Nid wyf yn amau am eiliad nad yw hynny am fod canran uwch o bobl o’r Alban yn ymuno â’r lluoedd arfog, sydd wedi rhoi pwysau ar Lywodraeth yr Alban i neilltuo adnoddau ar gyfer y mater hwn. Mae gan Gymru draddodiad nodedig, ym maes recriwtio i’r lluoedd arfog yn bendant, o ddarparu milwyr i’r amrywiol wasanaethau sy’n rhan o fyddin Prydain.

I hope that the Minister, in her response, will give detailed consideration to the points that have been raised and to taking action on the ground with regard to making resource available and planning. I hope that she will also have discussions with the military to look at what help can be provided. Janet was right to say in her intervention that there is an obligation not only on health and social services, but also the military. Considerable sums of money are spent on preparing young people for active combat and engagement, but, maybe through some oversight or a lack of training, the same support is not provided post military life. I would endorse any engagement between this devolved Government and Whitehall to ensure that we can do this job better and in a more robust way, because that is part of our obligation to our young people when they sign up for military service. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments, particularly on how she will take this forward, given the demands that the service currently faces and, above all, given that we are coming to the end of the

Gobeithio y bydd y Gweinidog, yn ei hymateb, yn ystyried yn fanwl y pwyntiau a godwyd, ac yn ystyried cymryd camau gweithredu ar lawr gwlad o ran darparu adnoddau a gwneud gwaith cynllunio. Gobeithio y bydd hefyd yn trafod gyda’r lluoedd arfog er mwyn gweld pa gymorth y gellir ei ddarparu. Yr oedd Janet yn iawn i ddweud, yn ei hymyriad, fod dyletswydd nid yn unig ar wasanaethau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, ond ar y lluoedd arfog hefyd. Caiff llawer iawn o arian ei wario ar baratoi pobl ifanc i frwydro ac ymladd, ond trwy ryw amryfusedd neu ddiffyg hyfforddiant, efallai, ni chaiff yr un cymorth ei ddarparu wedi iddynt adael y lluoedd arfog. Byddwn yn cymeradwyo unrhyw ymwneud rhwng y Llywodraeth ddatganoledig hon a Whitehall i sicrhau y gallwn wneud y gwaith hwn yn well ac yn fwy trwyadl, oherwydd mae hynny’n rhan o’n dyletswydd i’n pobl ifanc pan fyddant yn ymuno â’r lluoedd arfog. Edrychaf ymlaen at glywed sylwadau’r Gweinidog, yn enwedig ar y modd y bydd yn symud y mater yn ei

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pilot project in Cardiff in March 2010. We will soon be able to analyse that data and move forward with a more comprehensive suite of support measures, including reintegration for people in this difficult and trying situation. Therefore, I hope that you will support our amendments as well as the motion.

flaen, o gofio’r galwadau ar y gwasanaeth ar hyn o bryd, ac yn anad dim, o gofio ein bod yn dod i ddiwedd y prosiect peilot yng Nghaerdydd ym mis Mawrth 2010. Cyn hir, byddwn yn gallu dadansoddi’r data a symud ymlaen gyda chyfres fwy cynhwysfawr o fesurau cymorth, gan gynnwys ailintegreiddio pobl sydd yn y sefyllfa anodd ac annifyr hon. Gobeithio, felly, y byddwch yn cefnogi ein gwelliannau yn ogystal â’r cynnig.

Eleanor Burnham: I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate this motion, and I welcome the Conservatives’ amendments. It is staggering that we expect people to go to war on our behalf and yet we almost put them on the scrapheap when they return. I am referring primarily to service personnel, or ex-service personnel. It was quite timely that, when I opened today’s edition of The Guardian, a UK newspaper, the main headline on the front page was, ‘War casualties put UK hospitals under strain ahead of fresh Afghan offensive’. The sub-heading ran, ‘New beds to be opened to handle rise in UK troops injured as defence secretary warns of “real risk” of new fatalities’. It is very timely and very sad.

Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn falch cael cyfle i gael dadl ar y cynnig hwn, a chroesawaf welliannau’r Ceidwadwyr. Mae’n syfrdanol ein bod yn disgwyl i bobl fynd i ryfel ar ein rhan ac yna bron iawn yn eu taflu ar y domen pan fyddant yn dychwelyd. Cyfeiriaf yn bennaf at aelodau neu gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog. Yr oedd yn amserol iawn, pan agorais rifyn heddiw o The Guardian, papur newydd i’r DU, fod y prif bennawd ar y tudalen blaen yn cyfeirio at y modd y mae milwyr clwyfedig yn rhoi straen ar ysbytai’r DU, a ninnau ar fin gweld cyrch newydd yn Affganistan. Dywedai’r is-bennawd fod mwy o welyau i gael eu darparu i ddelio â’r cynnydd yn nifer y milwyr o’r DU a gaiff eu hanafu, wrth i’r ysgrifennydd amddiffyn rybuddio am berygl go iawn y bydd mwy o filwyr yn marw. Mae’n amserol iawn ac yn drist iawn.

According to NICE guideline 26, up to 30 per cent of people exposed to a stressful event or situation of an exceptionally threatening or catastrophic nature will go on to develop post-traumatic stress disorder. I would suggest that the likelihood is even higher for people in a war situation. Like others, I have had the opportunity to visit the Pathways centre in Bangor, which I have questioned the Minister for Health and Social Services about previously. Despite her previous assurances, I am staggered that the centre survives in the hands of a single doctor who is very modest and does not want people to know who she is, who has had to invest her personal resources in the centre and re-mortgage her house to keep it going. When we discussed this briefly during questions to the Minister, she said that adequate provision is available on the NHS. The point that this medical doctor has made to me, along with other people, is that NHS provision cannot be that

Yn ôl canllaw 26 gan NICE, bydd hyd at 30 y cant o bobl sy’n dod i gysylltiad â digwyddiad sy’n peri straen, neu sefyllfa o natur eithriadol o fygythiol neu drychinebus, yn mynd yn eu blaen i ddatblygu anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Byddwn i’n awgrymu bod hynny’n fwy tebygol byth i bobl mewn rhyfel. Yr wyf fi, fel eraill, wedi cael cyfle i ymweld â chanolfan Pathways ym Mangor, ac yr wyf wedi holi’r Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol ynghylch y ganolfan cyn hyn. Er gwaethaf ei sicrwydd gynt, yr wyf yn rhyfeddu bod y ganolfan yn gallu parhau dan ofal un meddyg. Mae’n berson diymhongar iawn nad yw am i bobl wybod pwy ydyw. Mae wedi gorfod buddsoddi ei hadnoddau personol yn y ganolfan ac ailforgeisio’i chartref er mwyn cadw’r ganolfan i fynd. Pan fuom yn trafod hyn yn fyr yn ystod y cwestiynau i’r Gweinidog, dywedodd fod darpariaeth ddigonol ar gael trwy’r GIG. Y pwynt y

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effective if so many patients are going to Pathways because their previous treatment was inadequate. I suggest that the Minister revisits this issue because I believe, from what I saw and from what others have said, that Pathways in Bangor is offering a far superior and more comprehensive service, which is surely what our ex-service personnel deserve.

mae’r meddyg dan sylw wedi’i wneud wrthyf fi, ac eraill, yw na all darpariaeth y GIG fod mor effeithiol â hynny os oes cynifer o gleifion yn mynd i Pathways am fod eu triniaeth flaenorol yn annigonol. Awgrymaf y dylai’r Gweinidog ailystyried y mater, oherwydd credaf, o’r hyn a welais a’r hyn y mae eraill wedi’i ddweud, fod Pathways ym Mangor yn cynnig gwasanaeth llawer gwell a mwy cynhwysfawr, a rhaid bod cyn-aelodau ein lluoedd arfog yn haeddu hynny.

As has already been said, many people who are trying to access treatment cannot get it. We know that PTSD can take years to surface and needs specialist treatment, according to NICE guideline 26:

Fel y dywedwyd eisoes, mae llawer o bobl sy’n ceisio cael triniaeth yn methu â’i chael. Gwyddom y gall anhwylder straen wedi trawma gymryd blynyddoedd i ymddangos a bod angen triniaeth arbenigol ar ei gyfer, yn ôl canllaw 26 gan NICE:

‘Drug treatments for PTSD should not be used as a routine first-line treatment for adults…in preference to a trauma-focused psychological treatment.’

Ni ddylid defnyddio cyffuriau fel y ffordd gyntaf arferol i drin anhwylder straen wedi trawma mewn oedolion...yn hytrach na thriniaeth seicolegol sy’n canolbwyntio ar drawma.

Therefore, this is specialist treatment that they need and deserve. There are around 450 north Wales ex-service personnel in the criminal justice system. In the UK, at least 12,000 veterans are on probation, and a further 8,500 are in prison. That is twice the number of troops serving in Afghanistan, according to the National Association of Probation Officers in September last year. The point that was ably made by the doctor at Pathways in Bangor was that so many of the people that she has treated have been in the criminal justice system. We should, therefore, look at this with fresh eyes, Minister. There must be some discussions between you and your Westminster colleagues on this issue. Many of the families involved break up, and if our ex-service personnel find themselves homeless or inappropriately incarcerated, that does not do us proud, and I do not think that it does us any good in the long term either. Therefore, I urge you to review the issue regarding the Pathways centre in Bangor. I hope that this motion will be agreed because I believe that if we expect people to go to war zones, we should at least look after them when they return.

Felly, mae arnynt angen triniaeth arbenigol, ac y maent yn ei haeddu. Mae oddeutu 450 o gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog o’r gogledd yn y system cyfiawnder troseddol. Yn y DU, mae o leiaf 12,000 o gyn-filwyr ar brawf ac 8,500 arall yn y carchar, sef dwywaith nifer y milwyr sy’n gwasanaethu yn Affganistan, yn ôl Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Swyddogion Prawf ym mis Medi y llynedd. Y pwynt a wnaed yn fedrus iawn gan y meddyg yn Pathways ym Mangor oedd bod cynifer o’r bobl y mae wedi’u trin wedi bod yn y system cyfiawnder troseddol. Dylem edrych ar y mater hwn o’r newydd, felly, Weinidog. Rhaid ichi drafod y mater hwn gyda’ch cydweithwyr yn San Steffan. Mae nifer o’r teuluoedd dan sylw yn chwalu, ac ni allwn ymfalchïo os yw cyn-aelodau ein lluoedd arfog yn eu cael eu hunain yn ddigartref neu’n cael eu carcharu’n amhriodol, ac ni chredaf fod hynny o fudd inni yn y tymor hir chwaith. Felly, anogaf chi i adolygu sefyllfa canolfan Pathways ym Mangor. Gobeithio y byddwn yn cytuno’r cynnig hwn, oherwydd os ydym yn disgwyl i bobl fynd i fannau lle mae rhyfel, credaf y dylem o leiaf ofalu amdanynt pan ddychwelant.

5.10 p.m.

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David Lloyd: I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate on post-traumatic stress disorder. As we have heard, around 30 per cent of people exposed to any extremely stressful, harrowing or distressing event or situation, such as a natural disaster, war, torture, rape or sexual abuse, will develop post-dramatic stress disorder.

David Lloyd: Yr wyf yn falch gallu cyfrannu at y ddadl hon ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Fel y clywsom, bydd oddeutu 30 y cant o bobl sy’n dod i gysylltiad â digwyddiad neu sefyllfa sy’n peri straen, trallod neu ofid enbyd, megis trychineb naturiol, rhyfel, artaith, trais neu gamdrin rhywiol, yn datblygu anhwylder straen wedi trawma.

I am now quite an old GP and have managed patients following successive conflicts, ranging not from the second world war, but certainly from the Falklands war and the Gulf war. Distressing symptoms can develop immediately or can be delayed for several years afterwards. Therefore, it is sometimes quite difficult to make the diagnosis. The symptoms are things like nightmares, flashbacks, feelings of isolation, unreality and detachment from life in the present. It is difficult and unpleasant for people to explain exactly how they feel. People get depressed, anxious and are ridden with panic attacks, and there are the inevitable associated drug and alcohol misuse and social issues, such as homelessness and a lack of finance. This is a tremendous issue and challenge in management terms. We are certainly up to the challenge in primary care; however, the challenge is difficult given the immense multifactorial problems.

Yr wyf yn feddyg teulu eithaf hen erbyn hyn, ac wedi trin cleifion yn dilyn y naill wrthdaro ar ôl y llall, nid o’r ail ryfel byd, ond yn sicr o ryfel Ynysoedd Falkland a rhyfel y Gwlff. Gall symptomau sy’n peri gofid ddatblygu ar unwaith, neu gall gymryd blynyddoedd cyn iddynt ymddangos. Felly, gall fod yn anodd iawn gwneud y diagnosis weithiau. Mae’r symptomau’n cynnwys hunllefau ac ôl-fflachiau, teimlo’n unig ac wedi’u datgysylltu oddi wrth fywyd yn y presennol, a theimlo bod pethau’n afreal. Mae’n anodd ac yn annymunol i bobl egluro sut yn union y maent yn teimlo. Bydd pobl yn mynd i deimlo’n isel eu hysbryd ac yn bryderus, yn cael eu llethu gan byliau o banig, a cheir y problemau cysylltiedig anochel o gamddefnyddio cyffuriau ac alcohol, a phroblemau cymdeithasol megis digartrefedd a diffyg arian. Mae hon yn broblem ac yn her enfawr i’w rheoli. Yr ydym yn sicr yn abl i ymateb i’r her mewn gofal sylfaenol, ond mae’r her yn anodd oherwydd y problemau aruthrol a achosir gan nifer o ffactorau.

There is no doubt that the prevalence of post-traumatic stress disorder is higher among war veterans than the ordinary civilian population. With wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, post-traumatic stress disorder is increased by longer spells in these conflict zones and by shorter respite between periods of deployment—both of which are issues that we have seen in recent conflicts. As Eleanor Burnham alluded, today’s The Guardian front page states, ‘War casualties put UK hospitals under strain’, which is undoubtedly true. We have seen the toll of dead and maimed soldiers. However, the toll of those with mental health problems, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, is not always so visible. It is not always easy either to identify the increased numbers of armed forces veterans in prison, homeless or with drug and

Nid oes amheuaeth nad yw anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn fwy amlwg ymhlith cyn-filwyr nag yn y boblogaeth sifil gyffredin. Gyda rhyfeloedd yn Irac ac Affganistan, ceir mwy o achosion o anhwylder straen wedi trawma wrth i filwyr dreulio cyfnodau hwy yn yr ardaloedd hyn lle mae gwrthdaro, a chael llai o seibiant rhwng cyfnodau oddi cartref—a gwelsom y ddwy broblem hyn yn codi yn ystod gwrthdaro’n ddiweddar. Fel y crybwyllodd Eleanor Burnham, mae tudalen blaen The Guardian heddiw yn cyfeirio at y modd y mae milwyr clwyfedig yn rhoi straen ar ysbytai’r DU, ac nid oes amheuaeth nad yw hynny’n wir. Gwelsom y gost yn nifer y milwyr sydd wedi eu lladd a’u hanafu. Fodd bynnag, nid yw’r gost o ran nifer y milwyr sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, megis anhwylder straen wedi trawma, bob amser

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alcohol problems. mor amlwg. At hynny, nid yw bob amser yn hawdd gweld bod mwy o gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog yn y carchar, yn ddigartref, neu’n cael problemau gyda chyffuriau ac alcohol.

Plaid Cymru at Westminster level has highlighted the mental health needs of service personnel for some time, with some success. The general thrust of Elfyn Llwyd MP and his colleagues’ call is that mental health assessments should be mandatory for all service personnel pre discharge. The army culture that treats the abuse of alcohol as an acceptable catalyst to winding down after conflict-zone deployment should be dispelled immediately, and advice packs should be issued to all armed services personnel on discharge, to address social isolation and how systems can be accessed again, and sometimes for the first time, in the civilian world. Mention has been made of the two-year pilot project, the community veterans’ mental health service, which was launched in 2008 and jointly funded by the Welsh Assembly Government and the Ministry of Defence. We naturally look forward to news of its success and its subsequent roll-out, because our armed services personnel deserve the best that their sacrifice, fighting in various conflict zones around the globe, demands of the Westminster Parliament and the Ministry of Defence that sent them to war in the first place.

Yn San Steffan, mae Plaid Cymru wedi bod yn tynnu sylw, ers cryn amser, at anghenion iechyd meddwl aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, a chafwyd rhywfaint o lwyddiant. Prif fyrdwn yr hyn y mae Elfyn Llwyd AS a’i gydweithwyr yn galw amdano yw y dylai asesiadau iechyd meddwl fod yn orfodol i holl aelodau’r lluoedd arfog cyn cael eu rhyddhau. Dylid chwalu ar unwaith y diwylliant yn y fyddin sy’n ystyried bod camddefnyddio alcohol yn ffordd dderbyniol i helpu pobl i ymlacio ar ôl bod yn gweithio mewn ardal lle mae gwrthdaro. Wrth eu rhyddhau, dylai holl aelodau’r lluoedd arfog gael pecynnau cyngor sy’n egluro sut i fynd i’r afael ag unigrwydd cymdeithasol a sut i gael mynediad i systemau unwaith eto ac efallai am y tro cyntaf, ar ôl gadael y lluoedd arfog. Cyfeiriwyd at y prosiect peilot dwy flynedd, sef y gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl cymunedol i gyn-filwyr, a lansiwyd yn 2008 a’i ariannu ar y cyd gan Lywodraeth y Cynulliad a’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn. Yn naturiol, edrychwn ymlaen at glywed am ei lwyddiant ac am ei ehangu wedi hynny, oherwydd mae aelodau ein lluoedd arfog yn haeddu’r gorau y mae eu haberth, wrth ymladd mewn gwahanol ardaloedd lle mae gwrthdaro ar draws y byd, yn ei fynnu gan Senedd San Steffan a’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn a fu’n gyfrifol am eu hanfon i ryfel yn y lle cyntaf.

Jenny Randerson: This debate is long overdue in this Chamber. It is entirely appropriate that the extent of post-traumatic stress disorder is properly recognised and that subsequent treatment is not only available theoretically, but also in practice. The Welsh Liberal Democrats recently debated a motion at our autumn conference on this topic. I expect that you will relate to the fact that debates at party conferences are sometimes lively, but rarely emotionally deeply moving. However, this debate on post traumatic stress disorder was exceptionally moving because one speaker after another spoke of their experiences of dealing with family members who had suffered or were suffering from this

Jenny Randerson: Yr oedd yn hen bryd inni gael y ddadl hon yn y Siambr hon. Mae’n gwbl briodol fod graddau anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn cael eu cydnabod yn iawn, a bod triniaeth ddilynol ar gael mewn gwirionedd, ac nid mewn theori yn unig. Yn ddiweddar, cynhaliodd Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru ddadl ar gynnig ar y mater hwn yn ein cynhadledd yn yr hydref. Mae’n siŵr gennyf y gallwch uniaethu â’r ffaith fod dadleuon yng nghynadleddau’r pleidiau gwleidyddol yn gallu bod yn fywiog weithiau, ond mai anfynych y byddant yn eich cyffwrdd i’r byw yn emosiynol. Fodd bynnag, yr oedd y ddadl hon ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn arbennig o

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problem. We were reminded of the very human cost of PTSD.

deimladwy, oherwydd yr oedd y naill siaradwr ar ôl y llall yn sôn am eu profiadau o ymdrin ag aelodau’r teulu a oedd wedi dioddef o’r broblem hon neu a oedd yn dal i ddioddef ohoni. Cawsom ein hatgoffa o’r dioddefaint enbyd y mae anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn ei achosi i bobl.

I will now turn to the specific issues associated with treatment for the condition, because it is interesting, although very disappointing, to note that no data are collected centrally by the Government on the number of mental health trauma specialists employed by the national health service in Wales. Clinical guidance from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence recommends a trauma-focused psychological treatment before medication wherever possible; in some cases, medication may be offered in addition to therapy. How is the NICE guidance to be met, and the evidence-based therapy made effective, if the Government has no way of knowing how the service is performing? No data are collected centrally to assess the use of private specialists by the national health service. How can the Minister assess how effective and extensive the provision of PTSD treatment is if she does not have any data? Data are not collected centrally by the Government on waiting times or the number of patients requiring specialist trauma counselling. How can interventions take place, and how can there be effective scrutiny of the Government if the Government is not aware of the extent of the problem?

Trof yn awr at y problemau penodol yn ymwneud â thrin y cyflwr, oherwydd mae’n ddiddorol ond yn siomedig iawn sylwi nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn casglu dim data yn ganolog am nifer yr arbenigwyr trawma iechyd meddwl a gaiff eu cyflogi gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yng Nghymru. Mae canllawiau clinigol y Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth Glinigol yn argymell y dylid darparu triniaeth seicolegol sy’n canolbwyntio ar drawma, cyn darparu meddyginiaeth, ble bynnag y bydd yn bosibl; mewn rhai achosion gellir cynnig meddyginiaeth yn ogystal â therapi. Sut mae bodloni canllawiau NICE, a sut mae sicrhau bod therapi sy’n seiliedig ar dystiolaeth yn effeithiol, os nad oes gan y Llywodraeth yr un ffordd i wybod sut mae’r gwasanaeth yn perfformio? Ni chaiff dim data eu casglu’n ganolog i asesu’r modd y mae’r gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol yn defnyddio arbenigwyr preifat. Sut gall y Gweinidog asesu pa mor effeithiol a helaeth yw’r ddarpariaeth o ran triniaeth ar gyfer anhwylder straen wedi trawma os nad oes ganddi ddata? Nid yw’r Llywodraeth yn casglu data yn ganolog ar amseroedd aros na nifer y cleifion sydd ag angen gwasanaeth cwnsela arbenigol ar gyfer trawma. Sut y gellir cyflwyno ymyriadau a sut y gellir craffu’n effeithiol ar y Llywodraeth os nad yw’r Llywodraeth yn gwybod beth yw maint y broblem?

PTSD can affect anyone who has been exposed to an exceptionally catastrophic event or events. We have heard a great deal about our returning troops, and Members have referred time and again to that issue and to the horrors that troops have faced, which led to the horrors of PTSD. Too many people from all walks of life have to deal with this illness alone, because the help that should be provided is not provided. The Welsh Liberal Democrats call for the Minister to acknowledge that the problem is far greater than has previously been acknowledged, that the existence of a guideline—much less a

Gall anhwylder straen wedi trawma effeithio ar unrhyw un sydd wedi dod i gysylltiad â digwyddiad neu ddigwyddiadau eithriadol o drychinebus. Clywsom lawer am ein milwyr sy’n dychwelyd adref, ac mae Aelodau wedi cyfeirio droeon at hynny ac at yr erchyllterau y mae’r milwyr wedi’u hwynebu sydd wedi arwain at erchyllterau anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Mae gormod o bobl o bob cefndir yn gorfod ymdopi â’r salwch hwn ar eu pen eu hunain, am nad yw’r cymorth a ddylai gael ei ddarparu yn cael ei ddarparu. Mae Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru yn galw ar y Gweinidog i gydnabod bod y broblem yn

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target—does not guarantee delivery, and that there is a yawning gap in Wales between the guidance that is issued and the delivery and treatment available.

fwy o lawer nag a gydnabuwyd cyn hyn, ac nad yw’r ffaith bod canllaw ar gael—sy’n llai byth o darged—yn gwarantu darparu gwasanaethau, a bod bwlch anferth yng Nghymru rhwng y canllawiau a gyhoeddir a’r gwasanaethau a ddarperir a’r driniaeth sydd ar gael.

Finally, Minister, we would welcome a commitment from you today that the collection of statistics centrally will improve because, time and again, for one illness after another, we have not recognised the true extent of the illness until we have collected the statistics that reveal the current situation.

Yn olaf, Weinidog, byddem yn croesawu ymrwymiad gennych heddiw y bydd y gwaith o gasglu ystadegau’n ganolog yn gwella, oherwydd dro ar ôl tro, yn achos y naill salwch ar ôl y llall, nid ydym yn sylweddoli gwir faint y salwch nes inni gasglu’r ystadegau sy’n datgelu’r sefyllfa gyfredol.

Mark Isherwood: Just three weeks ago, I devoted my short debate to complex post traumatic stress disorder. In her response to that debate, the Minister stated that she had recently commissioned a veterans’ needs assessment research project, which would lead to recommendations on a veterans’ mental health service model across Wales. Minister, there is an urgent and pressing need now, and it is not being met. The Minister restated her belief that the services provided by the unique Pathways centre in Bangor are provided by the national health service. Regrettably, she was wrong when I first raised this issue in the last Assembly, she was wrong when I raised it in a short debate two years ago, and, three weeks ago, she was wrong again. I hope that, this time, we may hear something different.

Mark Isherwood: Dair wythnos yn unig yn ôl, neilltuais fy nadl fer i ymdrin ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma cymhleth. Yn ei hymateb i’r ddadl honno, dywedodd y Gweinidog ei bod, yn ddiweddar, wedi comisiynu prosiect ymchwil ar asesu anghenion cyn-filwyr, a fyddai’n arwain at argymhellion ar fodel ar gyfer gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl i gyn-filwyr ar draws Cymru. Weinidog, mae angen dybryd a thaer yn awr, ac nid yw’n cael ei ddiwallu. Clywsom y Gweinidog yn dweud unwaith eto ei bod yn credu bod y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan ganolfan unigryw Pathways ym Mangor yn cael eu darparu gan y gwasanaeth iechyd gwladol. Yn anffodus, yr oedd yn anghywir pan godais y broblem hon gyntaf yn y Cynulliad diwethaf, yr oedd yn anghywir pan godais y broblem mewn dadl fer ddwy flynedd yn ôl, ac yr oedd yn anghywir eto dair wythnos yn ôl. Gobeithio, y tro hwn, y cawn glywed rhywbeth gwahanol.

Post traumatic stress disorder is a natural emotional reaction to a deeply shocking and disturbing experience, characterised by upsetting memories or thoughts of the ordeal, blunting of emotions, increased anxiety, and sometimes severe personality changes. Among combat veterans there is a common pattern of attempted symptom suppression by alcohol and/or drug abuse, with a downward spiral of employment difficulties, relationship problems, confrontation with the law, and suicide. Pathways, in north Wales, is a service favoured by ex-elite forces and other ex-service personnel. Its motto is ‘the best deserve the best’. It provides a six-week in-

Mae anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn ymateb emosiynol naturiol i brofiad hynod frawychus a chythryblus, a’i nodweddion yw atgofion neu deimladau annifyr iawn am y profiad, ymgais i bylu emosiynau, mwy o bryder, a newidiadau difrifol mewn personoliaeth weithiau. Ymysg cyn-filwyr mae patrwm cyffredin o geisio atal y symptomau trwy gamddefnyddio alcohol a/neu gyffuriau, a phatrwm o anawsterau cynyddol o ran gwaith, problemau yn eu perthynas ag eraill, gwrthdaro â’r heddlu, a hunanladdiad. Mae Pathways, yn y gogledd, yn wasanaeth a gaiff ei ffafrio gan gyn-aelodau’r lluoedd elît a chyn-aelodau eraill

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house therapy programme using highly trained staff with vast experience in the treatment of PTSD in ex-military personnel exposed to prolonged combat situations. In the week that I visited, it received 11 referrals—including referrals from the NHS and the police—six of which were of residents in north Wales. A major cause of concern is that the NHS in Wales has refused to pay for this treatment. Senior clinicians established Pathways with their personal savings, but are now in financial difficulties because of the severity of the funding situation.

o’r lluoedd arfog. Arwyddair y gwasanaeth yw ‘Mae’r gorau’n haeddu’r gorau’. Mae’n darparu rhaglen therapi yn fewnol sy’n para chwe wythnos, gan ddefnyddio staff cymwys iawn sydd â phrofiad helaeth o drin anhwylder straen wedi trawma ymhlith cyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog sydd wedi bod yn ymladd am amser hir. Yn ystod yr wythnos pan ymwelais i â’r gwasanaeth, yr oedd 11 o bobl wedi’u cyfeirio ato—gan gynnwys rhai a gyfeiriwyd gan y GIG a’r heddlu—chwech ohonynt yn byw yn y gogledd. Yr hyn sy’n peri pryder mawr yw bod y GIG yng Nghymru wedi gwrthod talu am y driniaeth hon. Uwch-glinigwyr a sefydlodd Pathways o’u cynilion personol, ond maent mewn trafferthion ariannol erbyn hyn oherwydd difrifoldeb y sefyllfa ariannu.

5.20 p.m.

When I asked the Minister for health to intervene to safeguard this vital service for our wounded veterans, she replied that consultants for the service were advised at the first point of contact with the appraisal team that the project was not eligible for grant aid because the services that the project provides can be provided by the NHS. In reality, thousands are dependent on the services provided by the clinicians at Pathways. Approximately 10 per cent of the prison population are former service personnel and 2,000 are estimated to have PTSD, while 12 per cent of the homeless population are veterans. Over Christmas, Pathways took in clients who would otherwise have killed themselves. It now has clients from Wales waiting to be admitted that it cannot accept because of a lack of funding.

Pan ofynnais i’r Gweinidog dros iechyd ymyrryd i ddiogelu’r gwasanaeth hanfodol hwn ar gyfer ein cyn-filwyr clwyfedig, ei hymateb oedd bod ymgynghorwyr ar ran y gwasanaeth wedi cael gwybod, pan gysylltwyd â’r tîm arfarnu am y tro cyntaf, nad oedd y prosiect yn gymwys i gael cymorth grant gan fod y gwasanaethau a ginigir gan y prosiect yn rhai y gall y GIG eu darparu. Mewn gwirionedd, mae miloedd yn dibynnu ar y gwasanaethau a ddarperir gan glinigwyr Pathways. Mae tua 10 y cant o’r bobl hynny sydd mewn carchardai yn gyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, ac amcangyfrifir bod 2,000 o’r rheini’n dioddef anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Mae 12 y cant o’r bobl sy’n ddigartref yn gyn-filwyr. Dros y Nadolig, croesawodd Pathways gleientiaid a fyddai wedi cyflawni hunanladdiad pe na baent wedi eu derbyn. Mae gan y gwasanaeth yn awr gleientiaid o Gymru sy’n aros i gael eu derbyn, ond ni all wneud hynny oherwydd diffyg cyllid.

When I want the facts, I listen to experts like Dr Steven Hughes, Regimental Medical Officer 2 Para, veteran of the battles of Goose Green and Wireless Ridge, Falkland Islands, 1982, and director of front-line resuscitation during the Bluff Cove disaster, who set up Pathways with Dr Deborah Power. Dr Hughes states, with no disrespect to NHS mental health professionals, that it is likely that the first time that they encounter

Pan fyddaf am gael y ffeithiau, byddaf yn gwrando ar arbenigwyr fel Dr Steven Hughes, swyddog meddygol catrodol gydag ail fataliwn catrawd y parasiwtwyr, a fu’n ymladd ym mrwydrau Goose Green a Wireless Ridge ar Ynysoedd Falkland yn 1982, ac yn gyfarwyddwr dadebru ar y rheng flaen yn nhrychineb Bluff Cove. Ef a fu’n gyfrifol am sefydlu Pathways gyda Dr Deborah Power. Dywed Dr Hughes, heb

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an ex-serviceman with complex PTSD will be their first appreciation of a complex psychological condition that correlates poorly with the usual spectrum of civilian mental health disorders. He also says that if conventional mental health services were so comprehensive there would not be such a high suicide rate among veterans, such a large number of veterans in the prison population, and such a large number of veterans sleeping rough.

amharchu gweithwyr proffesiynol y GIG ym maes iechyd meddwl, mai’r tro cyntaf y bydd gweithiwr proffesiynol yn y GIG yn debygol o ddod ar draws cyn-aelod o’r lluoedd arfog ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma cymhleth fydd y tro cyntaf i’r gweithiwr hwnnw orfod deall anhwylder seicolegol cymhleth nad oes ganddo fawr o gysylltiad â sbectrwm arferol anhwylderau iechyd meddwl sifiliaid. Pe bai gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl confensiynol mor gynhwysfawr, dywed hefyd na fyddai cynifer o gyn-filwyr yn cyflawni hunanladdiad, na fyddai cynifer o gyn-filwyr mewn carchardai ac na fyddai cynifer o gyn-filwyr yn ddigartref.

Complex military PTSD is, by definition, not within the routine practice of NHS mental health services, other than in a handful of specialist units such as the pilot scheme in Cardiff referred to earlier. The medical director of that scheme told me that it has a catchment area of 1 million people and was inundated with referrals. Another doctor told me last week that a significant practical problem in implementing the NICE guidelines on PTSD is the lack of available NHS resources for individual and non-pharmaceutical treatments. He added that insensitive health and social care services, along with a lack of appropriate expertise and resources in the NHS, are further traumatising those suffering from PTSD. This is a matter of social justice, demanding cost-effective service delivery in partnership with the independent sectors and its specialist clinicians.

Trwy ddiffiniad, nid yw anhwylder straen wedi trawma milwrol cymhleth yn rhan o feddygaeth arferol gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl y GIG, heblaw mewn llond llaw o unedau arbenigol, megis y cynllun peilot yng Nghaerdydd y cyfeiriwyd ato’n gynharach. Dywedodd cyfarwyddwr meddygol y cynllun hwnnw wrthyf fod ganddo ddalgylch sy’n cynnwys 1 filiwn o bobl, a bod llu o bobl wedi’u cyfeirio ato. Dywedodd meddyg arall wrthyf yr wythnos diwethaf mai un broblem ymarferol sylweddol wrth weithredu canllawiau NICE ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma yw’r ffaith nad oes digon o adnoddau ar gael gan y GIG ar gyfer triniaethau unigol nad ydynt yn rhai fferyllol. Ychwanegodd fod gwasanaethau iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol ansensitif, ynghyd â diffyg adnoddau ac arbenigedd priodol yn y GIG, yn achosi mwy o drawma i’r rheini sy’n dioddef o anhwylder traen wedi trawma. Mae hwn yn fater o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol, sy’n mynnu y dylid darparu gwasanaethau’n gost-effeithiol mewn partneriaeth gyda’r sector annibynnol a’i glinigwyr arbenigol.

Last week I met former solider Chris O’Neil of Colwyn Bay, who is working with Plaid Cymru in Westminster, and I commend the work being done there. He has launched a pilot project to raise awareness of the plight of former service personnel left mentally scarred by their tours of duty and to push for vital support for them. As he states, nothing less than a national strategy at UK and devolved level will deal with the situation.

Yr wythnos diwethaf, cyfarfûm â Chris O’Neil, y cyn-filwr o Fae Colwyn sy’n gweithio gyda Phlaid Cymru yn San Steffan, ac yr wyf yn canmol y gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud yno. Mae Chris wedi lansio prosiect peilot i godi ymwybyddiaeth o drafferthion cyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog sydd wedi’u creithio’n feddyliol gan eu tymhorau dyletswydd, ac i bwyso am gymorth hanfodol ar eu cyfer. Yn ôl Chris O’Neil, ni fydd dim byd llai na strategaeth genedlaethol ar lefel y DU ac ar lefel ddatganoledig yn mynd i’r afael â’r sefyllfa.

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Alun Cairns: Andrew Davies highlighted earlier the contribution and effort made by Mark Isherwood on this subject, and I pay tribute to him for that. My comments refer to service personnel in particular, and I underline the interest that the Minister shows in the armed forces, and hope that that interest and enthusiasm will also spread to those suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and the support that can be given to them in the NHS. I have no doubt that the Minister will want to comment on that issue.

Alun Cairns: Yn gynharach, tynnodd Andrew Davies sylw at y cyfraniad a’r ymdrech gan Mark Isherwood ar y pwnc hwn, a rhof deyrnged iddo am hynny. Mae fy sylwadau’n cyfeirio’n benodol at aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, a phwysleisiaf y diddordeb sydd gan y Gweinidog yn y lluoedd arfog. Gobeithi y bydd y diddordeb a’r brwdfrydedd hynny’n ymestyn hefyd i’r rheini sy’n dioddef o anhwylder straen wedi trawma, a’r cymorth y gellir ei roi iddynt yn y GIG. Nid oes gennyf ddim amheuaeth na fydd y Gweinidog am wneud sylw ar y mater hwnnw.

The fact more Falklands veterans have committed suicide since the conflict than died in action is extremely worrying. The Falklands have been in the news again this week, as the loss of life in Afghanistan has now exceeded that in the Falklands. Some 10 per cent of the prison population and 12 per cent of the homeless are war veterans. It is difficult to believe that individuals who have fought for their country, who have, I am sure, the respect of each and every one of us, and who have experienced the first-class discipline, support and routine provided by the armed forces should be in that position of making up 10 per cent of the prison population and 12 per cent of the homeless population.

Mae’r ffaith fod mwy o gyn-filwyr o ryfel Ynysoedd Falkland wedi cyflawni hunanladdiad ers y rhyfel hwnnw nag a fu farw yn y brwydro yn peri gofid mawr. Mae Ynysoedd Falkland wedi bod yn y newyddion eto yr wythnos hon, gan fod nifer y milwyr a laddwyd yn Affganistan bellach yn fwy na’r nifer a laddwyd yn Ynysoedd Falkland. Mae tua 10 y cant o’r bobl hynny sydd mewn carchardai a 12 y cant o’r rheini sy’n ddigartref yn gyn-filwyr. Mae’n anodd credu y dylai unigolion sydd wedi ymladd dros eu gwlad ac yr ydym i gyd, yr wyf yn siŵr, yn eu parchu ac sydd wedi profi disgyblaeth, cymorth a threfn o’r radd flaenaf gan y lluoedd arfog, mewn sefyllfa lle mae 10 y cant ohonynt yn y carchar a 12 y cant yn ddigartref.

It is obvious that post-traumatic stress disorder plays a significant part in contributing to that fact. As Mark Isherwood and others have rightly highlighted, Pathways is the route favoured by many of those veterans for treatment. If they strongly believe that it works for them, and there is a strong recognition among the clinical profession that it works, it is incumbent upon us to support it and to expand on it. It is worrying that the future of the Pathways programme is threatened, and it is important that the Minister addresses that in her response.

Mae’n amlwg bod anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn cyfrannu’n sylweddol at y ffaith honno. Fel mae Mark Isherwood ac eraill wedi tynnu sylw yn hollol gywir, canolfan Pathways yw’r llwybr a gaiff ei ffafrio gan lawer o’r cyn-filwyr hynny o ran triniaeth. Os ydynt yn credu’n gryf fod y driniaeth yn gweithio iddynt hwy a bod cydnabyddiaeth gref ymysg clinigwyr ei bod yn gweithio, mae dyletswydd arnom i’w chefnogi a’i hehangu. Mae’n peri pryder bod dyfodol rhaglen Pathways dan fygythiad, ac y mae’n bwysig i’r Gweinidog roi sylw i hynny yn ei hymateb.

We need to recognise that veterans will suffer from complex military post-traumatic stress disorder and that the routine NHS mental health services in Wales and beyond will not normally be able to address it. The mental

Mae angen inni gydnabod y bydd cyn-filwyr yn dioddef anhwylder straen wedi trawma milwrol cymhleth, ac na fydd gwasanaethau iechyd meddwl arferol y GIG yng Nghymru a thu hwnt yn gallu mynd i’r afael ag ef fel

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health service of the NHS in Wales and beyond has been wanting for some time. Recognition needs to be given to Jonathan Morgan and to the Welsh Assembly Government for the efforts that are being made to correct that deficiency, but we also need to correct the deficiency in mental health provision in relation to veterans and the post-traumatic stress disorder that they suffer from.

rheol. Bu gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl y GIG yng Nghymru a thu hwnt yn ddiffygiol ers cryn amser. Rhaid diolch i Jonathan Morgan a Llywodraeth y Cynulliad am yr ymdrechion a wneir i unioni’r diffyg hwnnw, ond mae angen hefyd inni unioni’r diffyg yn y ddarpariaeth iechyd meddwl ar gyfer cyn-filwyr, a’r anhwylder straen wedi trawma y maent yn dioddef ohono.

I have quoted some facts on the high number of veterans committing suicide, in prison, and sleeping rough, and that is, without question, a result of the lack of support that we are offering. If evidence-based practices are used, as they are in Pathways, for example, complete remission can be achieved in up to 50 per cent of cases, and partial improvement can be expected in most patients. If those people are prepared to put their lives on the line for our future, surely we can prioritise their future in our NHS.

Yr wyf wedi dyfynnu rhai ffeithiau am y nifer mawr o gyn-filwyr sy’n cyflawni hunanladdiad, sydd yn y carchar, ac sy’n ddigartref, ac nid oes amheuaeth nad y diffyg cymorth a gynigiwn sydd i gyfrif am hynny. O ddefnyddio arferion yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth, fel sy’n digwydd yn Pathways, er enghraifft, gellir gwella hyd at 50 y cant o achosion yn llwyr, a gellir disgwyl i’r rhan fwyaf o gleifion wella’n rhannol. Os yw’r bobl hynny’n barod i beryglu eu bywyd er mwyn ein dyfodol ni, siawns na allwn roi blaenoriaeth i’w dyfodol hwy yn ein GIG.

The Minister for Health and Social Services (Edwina Hart): As I stated in the recent short debate on PTSD, I am well aware of the need for appropriate provision for those who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. However, unlike Mark Isherwood, I have confidence in the health professionals and others who deal with those who suffer from this disorder day after day—24 hours a day, 365 days a year. They have shown a dedication to those services to help those victims.

Y Gweinidog dros Iechyd a Gwasanaethau Cymdeithasol (Edwina Hart): Fel y dywedais yn y ddadl fer yn ddiweddar ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma, yr wyf yn ymwybodol iawn fod angen darpariaeth briodol i’r rheini sy’n dioddef gan anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Fodd bynnag, yn wahanol i Mark Isherwood, mae gennyf ffydd yn y gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd a gweithwyr eraill sy’n ymdrin â’r sawl sy’n dioddef gan yr anhwylder hwn ddydd ar ôl dydd—24 awr y dydd, 365 diwrnod y flwyddyn. Maent wedi dangos ymroddiad i’r gwasanaethau hynny er mwyn helpu’r dioddefwyr hynny.

In response to Peter Black’s motion, it should be recognised that PTSD is a diagnosable mental health problem that, in the vast majority of cases, can be assessed, treated and managed within general secondary mental health services. Health boards in Wales are responsible for healthcare provision in their areas, and we would expect PTSD treatment to be in line with NICE guidelines and tailored to the particular needs and preferences of the service user.

Wrth ymateb i gynnig Peter Black, dylid cydnabod bod anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn broblem iechyd meddwl y gellir ei diagnosio, ac yn y mwyafrif helaeth o achosion gellir ei hasesu, ei thrin a’i rheoli gan wasanaethau iechyd meddwl eilaidd cyffredinol. Mae byrddau iechyd yng Nghymru’n gyfrifol am y ddarpariaeth gofal iechyd yn eu hardaloedd, a byddem yn disgwyl i’r driniaeth ar gyfer anhwylder straen wedi trawma gydymffurfio â chanllawiau NICE a chael ei theilwra i gyd-fynd ag anghenion a dewisiadau penodol y defnyddiwr gwasanaeth.

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I listened to the points that Jenny Randerson made on these issues, and I will pick up any comments made in the debate to see whether I require better information and data, and I will discuss this with health professionals.

Gwrandewais ar y pwyntiau a wnaeth Jenny Randerson am y materion hyn, a byddaf yn nodi unrhyw sylwadau a wnaed yn y ddadl i weld a oes arnaf angen gwell gwybodaeth a data, a byddaf yn trafod hynny gyda gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd.

Figures show that PTSD affects around 5 per cent of men and 10 per cent of women at some time in their life. Up to 30 per cent of people who are exposed to a stressful event or situation of an extremely threatening or catastrophic nature go on to develop PTSD. It should be emphasised that people of any age or social group can develop it. Events and situations that lead to PTSD include war, natural disasters, serious accidents, terrorist attacks and assaults, including rape. I always think it would be interesting to look at the suicide rates among women who suffer post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of rape.

Dengys y ffigurau fod anhwylder straen wedi trawma’n effeithio ar oddeutu 5 y cant o ddynion a 10 y cant o fenywod ar ryw adeg yn eu bywyd. Bydd hyd at 30 y cant o bobl sy’n dod i gysylltiad â digwyddiad sy’n peri straen, neu sefyllfa o natur eithriadol o fygythiol neu drychinebus, yn mynd yn eu blaen i ddatblygu anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Dylid pwysleisio y gall yr anhwylder ddatblygu mewn pobl o unrhyw oed neu grŵp cymdeithasol. Mae digwyddiadau a sefyllfaoedd sy’n arwain at anhwylder straen wedi trawma’n cynnwys rhyfel, trychinebau naturiol, damweiniau difrifol, ymosodiadau gan derfysgwyr, ac ymosodiadau eraill gan gynnwys trais rhywiol. Yr wyf bob amser yn meddwl y byddai’n ddiddorol edrych ar y cyfraddau hunanladdiad ymysg menywod sy’n dioddef anhwylder straen wedi trawma ar ôl cael eu treisio.

People particularly at risk of PTSD are victims of violent crime, torture or terrorism. As Dr Dai Lloyd mentioned, it can happen at any time, and it could be the week after the event, six or 12 months after the event, or even years after the event, that people choose to consult a doctor.

Mae pobl sy’n arbennig o agored i anhwylder straen wedi trawma’n cynnwys pobl sydd wedi dioddef troseddau treisgar, artaith neu derfysgaeth. Fel y dywedodd Dr Dai Lloyd, gall yr anhwylder daro unrhyw bryd, a gallai pobl ddewis mynd i weld meddyg wythnos ar ôl y digwyddiad, chwe neu 12 mis ar ôl y digwyddiad, neu hyd yn oed flynyddoedd ar ei ôl.

5.30 p.m.

Bethan Jenkins: I want to speak from personal experience in this regard. I suffered from this, and I still do, as a result of the fact that I have had a few car crashes. I went to the doctor in Neath Port Talbot to seek a referral, and I was told me that there was no point in being referred because I would have to wait a year to receive treatment. The only advice that I was given was to take medication. What do you say to people like me, who seek that advice and treatment, but cannot currently receive it?

Bethan Jenkins: Hoffwn siarad am y mater o brofiad personol. Yr wyf wedi dioddef ac yn dal i ddioddef o’r anhwylder, o ganlyniad i’r ffaith imi gael sawl damwain car. Euthum at y meddyg yng Nghastell-nedd Port Talbot i ofyn am gael fy nghyfeirio, a chefais wybod nad oedd diben gwneud hynny gan y byddai’n rhaid imi aros blwyddyn i gael triniaeth. Yr unig gyngor a gefais oedd y dylwn gymryd meddyginiaeth. Beth a ddywedwch wrth bobl fel fi, sy’n ceisio’r cyngor a’r driniaeth ond sy’n methu â’u cael ar hyn o bryd?

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Edwina Hart: I would say that there are improvements in the service, although there are some patchy elements. The service is driving its way through to ensure that there will be proper coverage across Wales and that it adheres to the guidance of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence.

Edwina Hart: Byddwn yn dweud bod gwelliannau wedi’u gwneud yn y gwasanaeth, er bod rhai elfennau’n ddiffygiol. Mae’r gwasanaeth yn symud yn ei flaen i sicrhau y bydd darpariaeth briodol ar draws Cymru a’i fod yn cadw at ganllawiau’r Sefydliad Cenedlaethol dros Iechyd a Rhagoriaeth Glinigol.

Emergency services such as the police and the fire brigade are also more likely to have traumatic experiences and we all recognise that the military is particularly susceptible. They also have to try to avoid reminders of the trauma so as not to bring the symptoms on. It is important that GPs take responsibility for the initial assessment and the co-ordination of care. Screening assessment is crucial in identifying the condition, but assessment can present challenges because, in the first instance, many people avoid talking about the problems that relate to their traumatic experience. It is also important that we recognise that families and carers can play a central role in supporting people. Health professionals also need to be acutely aware of the impact of PTSD on the whole family and not just on the individual.

Mae’r gweithwyr gwasanaethau brys megis yr heddlu a’r frigâd dân hefyd yn fwy tebygol o gael profiadau trawmatig, ac mae pob un ohonom yn sylweddoli bod aelodau’r lluoedd arfog yn arbennig o agored i’r anhwylder. Rhaid iddynt hefyd geisio osgoi pethau sy’n eu hatgoffa o’r trawma, fel na fydd y symptomau’n ymddangos. Mae’n bwysig i feddygon teulu gymryd cyfrifoldeb am yr asesiad cychwynnol ac am gydlynu gofal. Mae asesiadau sgrinio’n hanfodol i adnabod y cyflwr, ond gall asesu fod yn waith heriol oherwydd, yn y lle cyntaf, bydd pobl yn osgoi sôn am y problemau sy’n gysylltiedig â’u profiad trawmatig. Mae hefyd yn bwysig inni gydnabod y gall teuluoedd a gofalwyr gael rôl ganolog o ran cefnogi pobl. Yn ogystal, mae angen i weithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd fod yn ymwybodol iawn o effaith anhwylder straen wedi trawma ar y teulu cyfan, ac nid ar yr unigolyn yn unig.

We expect local community health teams in the secondary level of care to assess and manage most cases. The evidence is that the majority of cases do not require specialist care and treatment and can be treated by local services in an out-patient setting, which is what most people and their families want. Evidence-based treatment includes counselling or psychotherapy—sometimes with medication in addition to other treatment. In all cases, treatment needs to suit the individual’s needs and preferences. When a patient presents with PTSD and co-morbid conditions such as depression and drug and alcohol dependence, healthcare professionals should consider NICE guidelines on the appropriate treatment. Only a small minority of more complex cases will require specialist services such as cognitive behavioural therapy or referral to the NHS Wales traumatic stress service.

Yr ydym yn disgwyl i dimau iechyd cymunedol lleol ar y lefel eilaidd o ofal asesu a rheoli’r rhan fwyaf o achosion. Dengys y dystiolaeth nad oes angen gofal a thriniaeth arbenigol ar y rhan fwyaf o achosion, a bod modd i wasanaethau lleol eu trin mewn lleoliad i gleifion allanol. Dyna y mae’r mwyafrif o bobl a’u teuluoedd yn dymuno’i gael. Mae triniaeth yn seiliedig ar dystiolaeth yn cynnwys gwasanaeth cwnsela neu seicotherapi—weithiau gyda meddyginiaeth yn ogystal â thriniaeth arall. Ym mhob achos, mae angen i’r driniaeth weddu i anghenion a dewisiadau’r unigolyn. Pan welir bod gan glaf anhwylder straen wedi trawma a chyflyrau cyd-forbid megis iselder ysbryd a dibyniaeth ar gyffuriau ac alcohol, dylai gweithwyr proffesiynol ym maes iechyd ystyried canllawiau NICE ar y driniaeth briodol. Lleiafswm bach yn unig o achosion mwy cymhleth a fydd yn gorfod cael gwasanaethau arbenigol megis therapi gwybyddol ymddygiadol, neu’n gorfod cael eu cyfeirio at wasanaeth straen trawmatig

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GIG Cymru.

I understand that much of this debate has focused on veterans. As I previously mentioned, it is a specific issue for veterans. The treatment of serving personnel with mental health problems is the responsibility of the Ministry of Defence and they should receive care from MoD facilities such as regional rehabilitation centres.

Yr wyf yn deall bod llawer o’r ddadl hon wedi canolbwyntio ar gyn-filwyr. Fel y dywedais yn flaenorol, mae’n broblem benodol i gyn-filwyr. Y Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn sy’n gyfrifol am drin pobl sy’n gwasanaethu yn y lluoedd arfog ac sydd â phroblemau iechyd meddwl, a dylent gael gofal gan gyfleusterau’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn, megis canolfannau adsefydlu rhanbarthol.

I have prioritised improving the health and wellbeing of veterans in Wales and we are working with the MoD to improve links between the military and the NHS in Wales to benefit service personnel once they are discharged. I do not need a lecture, and nor does this Government, on our duties and commitment to the armed forces. I have been using my powers in health to help to improve their lives and to fulfil my commitment by honouring fully the military covenant. Key to that is the new Welsh Assembly Government annual operating framework target for 2010-11 that requires each health board to specifically consider the health needs of veterans when planning services. It reminds NHS organisers of their obligations to ensure that they comply with the arrangements set out in guidance on priority treatment and healthcare for veterans with service-related conditions, including PTSD.

Yr wyf wedi rhoi blaenoriaeth i wella iechyd a lles cyn-filwyr yng Nghymru, ac yr ydym yn gweithio gyda’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn i wella’r cysylltiadau rhwng y lluoedd arfog a’r GIG yng Nghymru er budd aelodau’r lluoedd arfog ar ôl eu rhyddhau. Nid oes angen pregeth arnaf fi, nac ar y Llywodraeth hon, ar ein dyletswyddau a’n hymrwymiad i’r lluoedd arfog. Yr wyf wedi bod yn defnyddio fy mhwerau ym maes iechyd i helpu gwella’u bywydau a chyflawni fy ymrwymiad trwy anrhydeddu’r cyfamod milwrol yn llawn. Mae targed fframwaith gweithredu blynyddol newydd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ar gyfer 2010-11 yn allweddol i hynny. Mae’r targed yn mynnu y dylai pob bwrdd iechyd ystyried yn benodol anghenion iechyd cyn-filwyr wrth gynllunio gwasanaethau. Mae’n atgoffa trefnwyr y GIG o’u rhwymedigaethau i sicrhau eu bod yn cydymffurfio â’r trefniadau yn y canllawiau ar ofal iechyd a thriniaeth fel mater o flaenoriaeth i gyn-filwyr sydd â chyflyrau’n gysylltiedig â gwasanaeth milwrol, gan gynnwys anhwylder straen wedi trawma.

We have extended the support for veterans through the community veterans mental health service. That is a two-year pilot jointly funded with the MoD. The pilot project provides expert clinical treatment and support for veterans who can access the service directly online or by e-mail. As you know, it is led by Professor Bisson in Cardiff University and we have had 150 referrals during the period of that pilot project. Veterans from Wales can also be referred for care treatment and support to Combat Stress and the veterans mental health service pilot project is currently identifying the levels of mental health needs in Wales for veterans. It is subject to evaluation and at that stage I will

Yr ydym wedi ymestyn y cymorth ar gyfer cyn-filwyr trwy’r gwasanaeth iechyd meddwl cymunedol i gyn-filwyr. Prosiect peilot dwy flynedd yw hwn sy’n cael ei ariannu ar y cyd â’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn. Mae’r prosiect peilot yn darparu triniaeth a chymorth clinigol arbenigol i gyn-filwyr, sy’n gallu cael mynd at y gwasanaeth yn uniongyrchol ar-lein neu drwy e-bost. Fel y gwyddoch, caiff ei arwain gan yr Athro Bisson ym Mhrifysgol Caerdydd, a chafodd 150 o bobl eu cyfeirio at y gwasanaeth yn ystod cyfnod y prosiect peilot hwnnw. Yn ogystal, gall cyn-filwyr o Gymru gael eu cyfeirio i gael gofal, triniaeth a chymorth gan Combat Stress, ac mae prosiect peilot y gwasanaeth iechyd

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consider its roll-out. meddwl i gyn-filwyr wrthi’n nodi lefelau anghenion iechyd meddwl cyn-filwyr yng Nghymru. Caiff y prosiect ei werthuso, a’r pryd hwnnw byddaf yn ystyried a ddylid ei ehangu.

On amendment 1, there are few complex cases for which we need more specialist services when they are judged clinically. We are aware—and I accept Bethan’s point—of demands on the mental health workforce and we have been increasing training opportunities and workforce levels. On workforce planning, Members will recognise that I have put more resources into mental health nursing in terms of training. So, I urge you to oppose that amendment.

O ran gwelliant 1, prin yw’r achosion cymhleth y mae arnom angen gwasanaethau mwy arbenigol ar eu cyfer o’u hystyried o safbwynt clinigol. Yr ydym yn ymwybodol—a derbyniaf bwynt Bethan—o’r galwadau ar y gweithlu iechyd meddwl, ac yr ydym wedi bod yn cynyddu cyfleoedd hyfforddiant a lefelau’r gweithlu. O ran cynllunio’r gweithlu, bydd Aelodau’n cydnabod fy mod wedi rhoi mwy o adnoddau i faes nyrsio iechyd meddwl o safbwynt hyfforddiant. Felly, anogaf chi i wrthwynebu’r gwelliant hwnnw.

Amendment 2 is on the budget. As I said to Alun Cairns, the majority of patients are treatable within the service, but I am aware of the current demands of warfare and what is being said about operations in Afghanistan and the impact that that war will have on military personnel. I constantly keep that under review in terms of services. I wish to say to Members that we take these duties seriously. When our war veterans return home, I want them to be able to have treatment close to home and to do what we can for them. That is a priority for the Government.

Mae gwelliant 2 yn ymwneud â’r gyllideb. Fel y dywedais wrth Alun Cairns, mae modd trin y rhan fwyaf o gleifion yn y gwasanaeth, ond yr wyf yn ymwybodol o’r galwadau presennol o ran rhyfela a’r hyn a ddywedir am ymgyrchoedd yn Affganistan a’r effaith a gaiff y rhyfel hwnnw ar aelodau’r lluoedd arfog. Yr wyf yn cadw golwg ar hynny’n barhaus yng nghyswllt gwasanaethau. Yr wyf am ddweud wrth Aelodau ein bod yn cymryd y dyletswyddau hyn o ddifrif. Pan fydd ein cyn-filwyr yn dychwelyd adref, yr wyf am iddynt allu cael eu trin yn agos i’w cartref ac am wneud yr hyn a allwn drostynt. Mae hynny’n flaenoriaeth i’r Llywodraeth.

Alun’s third amendment relates to working in partnership with the independent sector. The ‘One Wales’ agreement makes it quite clear that we expect the NHS, rather than the private sector, to provide comprehensive services. I stick to that and oppose this amendment.

Mae trydydd gwelliant Alun yn ymwneud â gweithio mewn partneriaeth â’r sector annibynnol. Mae cytundeb ‘Cymru’n Un’ yn dweud yn gwbl glir ein bod yn disgwyl i’r GIG, yn hytrach na’r sector preifat, ddarparu gwasanaethau cynhwysfawr. Yr wyf yn cadw at hynny ac yn gwrthwynebu’r gwelliant hwn.

The Assembly Government also funds the mental health research network. Part of the network’s research includes research on the health of war veterans. We have also commissioned the veterans’ needs assessment research project. Therefore, a lot of work is going on in all of the areas in which we need to be delivering.

Mae Llywodraeth y Cynulliad hefyd yn ariannu’r rhwydwaith ymchwil iechyd meddwl. Mae rhan o waith ymchwil y rhwydwaith yn cynnwys ymchwilio i iechyd cyn-filwyr. Yr ydym hefyd wedi comisiynu’r prosiect ymchwil ar asesu anghenion cyn-filwyr. Felly, mae llawer o waith yn digwydd ym mhob un o’r meysydd lle mae angen inni fod yn darparu.

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I do not accept the motion in the way that it has been worded and discussed. The Welsh NHS is definitely looking at PTSD. We are definitely delivering in terms of service provision. We know what the future holds and we will be preparing for that. Therefore, I urge Members to oppose the motion.

Nid wyf yn derbyn y cynnig fel y mae wedi’i eirio a’i drafod. Mae’r GIG yng Nghymru yn bendant yn edrych ar anhwylder straen wedi trawma. Yr ydym yn bendant yn cyflenwi o ran darparu gwasanaethau. Gwyddom beth sydd o’n blaenau, a byddwn yn paratoi ar gyfer hynny. Felly, anogaf Aelodau i wrthwynebu’r cynnig.

Kirsty Williams: One particular serviceman, following multiple tours of duty during the Northern Ireland troubles, thought that he had got away with it. He had come home with all of his limbs intact. It was not until some 10 years later, while standing at the butcher’s counter in Tesco, that he finally lost it. His particular role in Northern Ireland was to retrieve the dead bodies of colleagues who had been blown up by terrorist activity or shot. On that fateful afternoon in the Tesco superstore, the smell of raw meat at the butcher’s counter brought it all back, years after his tour of duty had finished.

Kirsty Williams: Yr oedd un milwr, yn dilyn nifer o dymhorau ar ddyletswydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon yn ystod yr helyntion yno, yn meddwl ei fod wedi dod allan ohoni’n dda. Daeth adref yn ddianaf. Ryw 10 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach, pan oedd yn aros wrth y cownter cig yn Tesco, y collodd arno’i hun. Ei waith penodol ef yng Ngogledd Iwerddon oedd casglu cyrff meirw ei gydweithwyr a oedd wedi’u saethu neu’u lladd mewn ffrwydradau a achoswyd gan derfysgwyr. Ar y diwrnod tyngedfennol hwnnw yn archfarchnad Tesco, daeth arogl y cig amrwd wrth y cownter cig â’r cyfan yn ôl iddo, flynyddoedd wedi iddo orffen ei dymor dyletswydd.

He was reduced to being unable to work and unable to go out with his family and children. He was reduced to staying in his home, petrified of feeling that loss of control all over again. Quite understandably, this afternoon, many of our colleagues have focused solely on the experiences of servicemen and ex-service personnel, and the prevalence of post traumatic stress disorder within that aspect of our population—quite rightly so, as there is ongoing action in Afghanistan and British troops are stationed in trouble spots across the world. It is right and it is our duty as a society to look after those who have served our country in this particular way.

Fe’i gyrrwyd i sefyllfa lle na allai weithio na mynd allan gyda’i deulu a’i blant. Fe’i gyrrwyd i sefyllfa lle nad oedd yn gadael y tŷ, am fod arno ofn colli rheolaeth arno’i hun eto yn yr un modd. Yn naturiol ddigon, y prynhawn yma mae llawer o’n cydweithwyr wedi canolbwyntio’n llwyr ar brofiadau aelodau a chyn-aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog, a pha mor gyffredin yw anhwylder straen wedi trawma yn y rhan honno o’r boblogaeth—ac mae hynny’n ddigon teg, gan fod brwydro’n dal i ddigwydd yn Affganistan a milwyr Prydain mewn mannau cythryblus ar draws y byd. Mae’n iawn inni ofalu am y rheini sydd wedi gwasanaethu ein gwlad fel hyn, ac mae arnom ddyletswydd fel cymdeithas i wneud hynny.

However, we would also do well to remember that it is not an illness that affects service personnel alone. As was pointed out by Dai Lloyd and the Minister, workers in other front-line services can also be affected by what they see in their daily working lives. The police, the fire brigade and paramedics can be affected, as can the general population; people can suffer from this disorder as a result of road accidents—as alluded to by Bethan Jenkins—by rape, or

Fodd bynnag, byddai’n dda inni gofio hefyd nad ar aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog yn unig y mae’r anhwylder hwn yn effeithio. Fel y nododd Dai Lloyd a’r Gweinidog, gall yr hyn y maent yn ei weld yn eu gwaith bob dydd effeithio hefyd weithwyr mewn gwasanaethau rheng flaen eraill. Gall yr anhwylder effeithio ar swyddogion yr heddlu a’r frigâd dân a pharafeddygon, yn ogystal â’r boblogaeth gyffredinol. Gall pobl ddioddef o’r anhwylder hwn o ganlyniad i

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robbery, by severe neglect or abuse, whether as adults or children. This disorder does not have an age profile; it can affect anyone at any age from any background. It is only bad luck to find oneself in a situation where you witness something out of your control that is so terrifying and overwhelming that its effects can stay with you for the rest of your life.

ddamweiniau ffordd—fel y crybwyllodd Bethan Jenkins—neu drais rhywiol, lladrad, esgeulustod neu gam-drin difrifol, yn oedolion neu’n blant. Nid yw’r anhwylder yn effeithio ar bobl o oed penodol; gall effeithio ar unrhyw un o unrhyw oed ac o unrhyw gefndir. Anlwc yw eich cael eich hun mewn sefyllfa lle byddwch yn gweld rhywbeth y tu hwnt i’ch rheolaeth sydd mor ddychrynllyd ac ysgytwol nes gall ei effeithiau aros gyda chi weddill eich oes.

As we have also heard this afternoon, PTSD can be successfully treated, even if the symptoms occur many years after the traumatic event itself. Something can be done. There is hope for these particular patients. However, to realise that hope, services need to be available. The NICE guidelines clearly state what a complete care pathway should look like, what exemplary treatment should look like: what patients could and should expect from the NHS in Wales should they suffer from this particular disorder. However, a lack of data makes it difficult to know exactly what is going on and the true patient experience in Wales.

Clywsom hefyd y prynhawn yma y gall anhwylder straen wedi trawma gael ei drin yn llwyddiannus, hyd yn oed os yw’r symptomau’n digwydd flynyddoedd lawer ar ôl y digwyddiad trawmatig ei hun. Mae modd gwneud rhywbeth. Mae gobaith i’r cleifion penodol hyn. Fodd bynnag, i wireddu’r gobaith hwnnw mae angen i wasanaethau fod ar gael. Mae canllawiau NICE yn disgrifio nodweddion llwybr gofal cyflawn yn glir, ac yn disgrifio nodweddion triniaeth ragorol: yr hyn y gallai ac y dylai cleifion ddisgwyl ei gael gan y GIG yng Nghymru os ydynt yn dioddef o’r anhwylder penodol hwn. Fodd bynnag, mae diffyg data yn ei gwneud yn anodd gwybod beth yn union sy’n digwydd a beth yw profiad gwirioneddol cleifion yng Nghymru.

The Minister made great play of the fact that generic services can often cope with the majority of patients who need treatment for post traumatic stress disorder, and I would not disagree.

Gwnaeth y Gweinidog yn fawr o’r ffaith y gall gwasanaethau cyffredinol yn aml ymdopi â’r rhan fwyaf o gleifion sydd ag arnynt angen triniaeth ar gyfer anhwylder straen wedi trawma, ac ni fyddwn yn anghytuno â hynny.

5.40 p.m.

Not even figures relating to the generic services are collected centrally or published centrally, and that makes it difficult to know exactly what is going on. There are even fewer data available for the specialist services that may be needed to treat service personnel who have gone through particular experiences or children who may be suffering in this way. I welcome the Minister’s commitment to look again at the completeness of the dataset to see whether there are gaps in it and issues to be addressed.

Nid yw hyd yn oed y ffigurau ar gyfer gwasanaethau cyffredinol yn cael eu casglu’n ganolog na’u cyhoeddi’n ganolog, ac mae hynny’n ei gwneud yn anodd gwybod beth yn union sy’n digwydd. Mae llai fyth o ddata ar gael ar gyfer y gwasanaethau arbenigol y gallai fod eu hangen i drin aelodau o’r lluoedd arfog sydd wedi cael profiadau penodol, neu blant a allai fod yn dioddef fel hyn. Croesawaf ymrwymiad y Gweinidog i edrych eto ar gyflawnder y set ddata i weld a oes bylchau ynddi a phroblemau sy’n gofyn am sylw.

As Bethan highlighted from her own Fel y tynnwyd sylw gan Bethan o’i phrofiad

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experience, access to counselling and other talking therapies can be extremely difficult, and often, the only answer that GPs can give patients—and GPs are desperately looking to alleviate this form of suffering—is to resort to a prescription for medication. Undoubtedly, medication is right for some patients to support them in making progress back to wellbeing, but it is often not patients’ or the GPs’ first choice. They want access to counselling and talking therapies, but it is simply not as prevalent as the Minister seemed to suggest in her defence of her Government.

ei hun, gall fod yn anodd iawn cael gwasanaethau cwnsela a therapïau trafod eraill, ac yn aml yr unig ateb y gall meddygon teulu ei roi i gleifion—ac mae meddygon teulu’n awyddus tu hwnt i geisio lleihau’r math hwn o ddioddefaint—yw presgripsiwn ar gyfer meddyginiaeth. Heb os, mae meddyginiaeth yn iawn i rai cleifion i’w cynorthwyo i ddal i wella, ond yn aml nid dyna fydd dewis cyntaf y cleifion na’r meddyg teulu. Maent am allu cael gwasanaethau cwnsela a therapïau trafod. Ond yn syml iawn, nid ydynt ar gael i’r graddau yr oedd y Gweinidog fel pe bai’n ei awgrymu wrth amddiffyn ei Llywodraeth.

The Pathway project in north Wales is a perfect example of an independent body trying to step in to plug the gap in current NHS provision. If the NHS were performing as well as the Minister says it is, and if the services were as complete as the Minister suggests, that begs the question of why people are turning to this service in north Wales if they could get everything they need from the NHS. Patients are turning to this independent service because they cannot get what they need in a timely fashion from the NHS. That is not because the NHS does not care, or because the NHS does not want to treat these patients. It simply does not currently have the capacity to do so.

Mae prosiect Pathways yn y gogledd yn enghraifft berffaith o gorff annibynnol yn ceisio ymyrryd i lenwi’r bwlch yn narpariaeth bresennol y GIG. Pe bai’r GIG yn perfformio cystal ag yr oedd y Gweinidog yn ei ddweud, a phe bai’r gwasanaethau mor gyflawn ag y mae’r Gweinidog yn ei awgrymu, rhaid gofyn pam mae pobl yn troi at y gwasanaeth hwn yn y gogledd os gallent gael popeth y mae arnynt ei angen gan y GIG. Mae cleifion yn troi at y gwasanaeth annibynnol hwn am na allant gael yr hyn y mae arnynt ei angen, mewn da bryd, gan y GIG. Nid am nad yw’r GIG yn poeni neu am nad yw’r GIG yn awyddus i drin y cleifion hyn y mae hyn yn digwydd. Yn syml iawn, nid oes gan y GIG y capasiti i wneud hynny ar hyn o bryd.

I regret the Minister’s attack on amendment 3. I know that it is a matter of high principle to her that there should be no source of treatment other than the NHS, but patients who are suffering from this problem do not care whether it is the NHS, the third sector or, in the eyes of the Minister, the ‘dreaded’ private sector who treats them. They just want a service, and they want it immediately so that they can begin their journey back to wellness to lead a normal life.

Yr wyf yn gresynu at ymosodiad y Gweinidog ar welliant 3. Gwn ei fod yn fater o egwyddor iddi mai’r GIG a ddylai fod yn ffynhonnell pob triniaeth, ond nid yw cleifion sy’n dioddef o’r broblem hon yn poeni ai’r GIG, y trydydd sector, ynteu’r sector preifat ‘dychrynllyd’, ym marn y Gweinidog, sy’n eu trin. Maent am gael gwasanaeth, ac maent am ei gael yn syth fel y gallant ddechrau ar eu siwrnai yn ôl i fywyd iach i fyw bywyd normal.

The Liberal Democrat motion just asks the Government to note the fact that, currently, there is limited provision, and it calls on the Government to begin to address that process. I regret that the Government has decided to ignore this motion, and it will against it. In doing so, it does not serve those patients who need this service well.

Y cyfan a wna cynnig y Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol yw gofyn i’r Llywodraeth nodi’r ffaith mai darpariaeth gyfyngedig sydd ar gael ar hyn o bryd, ac mae’n galw ar y Llywodraeth i ddechrau mynd i’r afael â’r broses honno. Yr wyf yn gresynu bod y Llywodraeth wedi penderfynu anwybyddu’r cynnig hwn ac y bydd yn pleidleisio yn ei

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erbyn. Wrth wneud hynny, nid yw’n darparu’n dda ar gyfer y cleifion hynny y mae arnynt angen y gwasanaeth hwn.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? I see that there is an objection, and so I defer all voting on this item until voting time.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Y cynnig yw ein bod yn cytuno’r cynnig heb welliant. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn gwrthwynebu? Gwelaf fod rhai’n gwrthwynebu. Felly, gohiriaf yr holl bleidleisio ar yr eitem hon tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: It is now past 5 p.m., so let us move straight to the votes. Does any Member wish to have the bell rung? I see that you do not.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Mae hi wedi troi 5 p.m. erbyn hyn, felly, gadewch inni symud yn syth i’r pleidleisiau. A oes unrhyw Aelod yn dymuno bod y gloch yn cael ei chanu? Gwelaf nad oes.

Gohiriwyd y pleidleisiau tan y cyfnod pleidleisio.Votes deferred until voting time.

Cyfnod PleidleisioVoting Time

Cynnig NDM4401: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Motion NDM4401: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

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Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4401: O blaid 31, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 19.Amendment 1 to NDM4401: For 31, Abstain 0, Against 19.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Derbyniwyd y gwelliant.Amendment agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4401: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 2 to NDM4401: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, Darren

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, Jane

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Morgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Jenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4401: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 3 to NDM4401: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Motion NDM4401 as amended: that Cynnig NDM4401 fel y’i diwygiwyd: bod

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the National Assembly for Wales: Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru:

1. recognises that community pharmacies assist in wide-scale prevention of health problems and in extensive management of chronic conditions, as well as in tackling ill health;

1. yn cydnabod bod fferyllfeydd cymunedol yn cynorthwyo i atal problemau iechyd ar raddfa eang a rheoli cyflyrau cronig yn sylweddol, yn ogystal â mynd i’r afael ag afiechyd;

2. calls on the Welsh Assembly Government to engage community pharmacies in Wales in tackling the severe wastage of medicines.

2. yn galw ar Lywodraeth Cynulliad Cymru i gynnwys fferyllfeydd cymunedol yng Nghymru wrth fynd i’r afael â’r broblem ddifrifol o wastraffu meddyginiaethau.

Cynnig NDM4401 fel y’i diwygiwyd: O blaid 35, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 15.Motion NDM4401 as amended: For 35, Abstain 0, Against 15.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineBlack, PeterBurnham, EleanorChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGerman, MichaelGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRanderson, JennyRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWilliams, KirstyWood, Leanne

Asghar, MohammadBourne, NickBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkJones, ElinLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickWilliams, Brynle

Derbyniwyd cynnig NDM4401 fel y’i diwygiwyd.Motion NDM4401 as amended agreed.

Cynnig NDM4403: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Motion NDM4403: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid: Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:

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The following Members voted for: The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y cynnig.Motion not agreed.

Gwelliant 1 i NDM4403: O blaid 18, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 1 to NDM4403: For 18, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan Wyn

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Lewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 2 i NDM4403: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 2 to NDM4403: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, EleanorBurns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, JaneDavies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Gwelliant 3 i NDM4403: O blaid 19, Ymatal 0, Yn erbyn 31.Amendment 3 to NDM4403: For 19, Abstain 0, Against 31.

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol o blaid:The following Members voted for:

Pleidleisiodd yr Aelodau canlynol yn erbyn:The following Members voted against:

Asghar, MohammadBlack, PeterBourne, NickBurnham, Eleanor

Andrews, LeightonBarrett, LorraineChapman, ChristineDavidson, Jane

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Burns, AngelaCairns, AlunDavies, Andrew R.T.Davies, PaulGerman, MichaelGraham, WilliamIsherwood, MarkLaw, TrishMelding, DavidMillar, DarrenMorgan, JonathanRamsay, NickRanderson, JennyWilliams, BrynleWilliams, Kirsty

Davies, AlunDavies, JocelynEvans, NerysFranks, ChrisGibbons, BrianGregory, JaniceGriffiths, JohnGriffiths, LesleyHart, EdwinaHutt, JaneJenkins, BethanJones, Alun FfredJones, AnnJones, CarwynJones, ElinJones, GarethJones, Helen MaryJones, Ieuan WynLewis, HuwLloyd, DavidLloyd, ValMewies, SandyMorgan, RhodriRyder, JanetThomas, GwendaWatson, JoyceWood, Leanne

Gwrthodwyd y gwelliant.Amendment not agreed.

Dadl FerShort Debate

Parcffordd Gwent—Atebion Trafnidiaeth ar gyfer y Dyfodol Agos?Gwent Parkway—Transport Solutions for the Near Future?

Michael German: I have given William Graham a minute in which to speak in this debate. My intention in introducing this topic is to emphasise the current and future difficulties with transport links in south-east Wales, and to support the case for a major solution to them. I am sure that everyone will be aware that the M4 is south Wales’s major economic artery. The Welsh Assembly Government says that it is the principal economic lifeline of south Wales, and I agree with that. It is our major link with England, and it is part of the international transport corridor from Ireland to the rest of Europe. However, transport and traffic along it have grown substantially over the past 15 years or so. According to the Government, sections of the existing M4 around Newport are operating at or approaching capacity during weekday peak periods of travel. Any breakdown or accident causes major tailbacks, frustrated drivers, on-time

Michael German: Yr wyf wedi rhoi munud i William Graham gael siarad yn y ddadl hon. Fy mwriad wrth gyflwyno’r pwnc hwn yw pwysleisio’r anawsterau ar hyn o bryd a’r anawsterau a gwyd yn y dyfodol gyda chysylltiadau trafnidiaeth yn y de-ddwyrain, a chefnogi’r achos o blaid cael ateb o bwys i’r anawsterau hynny. Mae’n siŵr y bydd pawb yn gwybod mai’r M4 yw prif briffordd economaidd y de. Dywed Llywodraeth y Cynulliad mai’r M4 yw’r prif beth sy’n cynnal bywyd economaidd y de, a chytunaf â hynny. Yr M4 yw ein prif gyswllt â Lloegr, ac mae’n rhan o’r coridor cludiant rhyngwladol o Iwerddon i weddill Ewrop. Fodd bynnag, mae cludiant a thraffig ar ei hyd wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol dros y 15 neu fwy o flynyddoedd a aeth heibio. Yn ôl y Llywodraeth, mae rhannau o’r M4 presennol o amgylch Casnewydd yn gweithio hyd eithaf eu gallu neu’n agos at hynny yn ystod oriau brig ar ddiwrnodau gwaith. Mae cerbyd

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deliveries not being achieved and alternative routes saturated.

sy’n methu neu ddamwain yn achosi tagfeydd mawr, gyrwyr rhwystredig ac oedi wrth ddosbarthu nwyddau, ac yn golygu bod ffyrdd gwahanol yn orlawn.

The M4 relief road has now been cancelled, and there is a question as to whether it should have ever been seriously considered. As always, the main issue is cash. In 2004, the Welsh Assembly Government announced that it was considering a tolled relief motorway. Building a non-tolled relief motorway was ruled out at the outset. That is why we should not have continued to discuss the issue at all. The Government at the time said that the new motorway would be tolled, and that the existing motorway would not. There were the seeds of the scheme’s failure. When the scheme was eventually scrapped late last year, this aspect of Government policy was the key to the scheme’s failure.

Erbyn hyn, mae’r syniad o greu ffordd liniaru’r M4 wedi’i anghofio, ac mae amheuon a ddylid bod wedi’i ystyried o ddifrif erioed. Fel sydd bob amser yn wir, diwedd y gân yw’r geiniog. Yn 2004, cyhoeddodd Llywodraeth y Cynulliad ei bod yn ystyried traffordd liniaru gyda thollau. Diystyriwyd adeiladu traffordd liniaru heb doll ar y dechrau’n deg. Dyna pam na ddylem fod wedi parhau i drafod y mater o gwbl. Dywedodd y Llywodraeth ar y pryd y byddai tollau ar y draffordd newydd, ac na fyddai tollau ar y draffordd bresennol. Dyna oedd hadau methiant y cynllun. Pan daflwyd y cynllun ar y domen o’r diwedd yn hwyr y llynedd, yr agwedd hon ar bolisi’r Llywodraeth oedd yr allwedd i fethiant y cynllun.

The Government now claims, rightly in my view, that the only scheme that would work would be one where the existing and new motorway were treated the same, tolled or non-tolled. It does not take a genius to work out that the new tolled motorway would be an option only during peak times for those relatively few drivers who would be prepared to pay. The option of tolling the existing and new motorways would have caused uproar. Given the current arguments over Severn bridge tolls, which we have had in this Chamber, it would not have made any economic sense, having paid a toll to come into Wales, to have another toll on the existing M4. Therefore, the genius Minister who came up with the idea in the first place—who is not the current Deputy First Minister and is not here—has succeeded in frustrating the development of alternatives to what is now Wales’s worst traffic situation. We have had six years of wasted time and energy, when we could have been looking at realistic alternatives. Meanwhile, the stranglehold on our economic lifeline has got stronger.

Mae’r Llywodraeth yn honni’n awr, ac yn hollol iawn yn fy marn i, mai’r unig gynllun a fyddai’n gweithio fyddai un lle byddai’r draffordd bresennol a’r draffordd newydd yn cael eu trin yn yr un modd, boed gyda thollau neu heb dollau. Nid oes angen athrylith i weld na fyddai’r draffordd newydd gyda thollau’n cael ei defnyddio heblaw yn ystod oriau brig gan y nifer cymharol fach hynny o yrwyr a fyddai’n barod i dalu. Byddai’r dewis o gael tollau ar y draffordd bresennol a’r draffordd newydd wedi achosi bonllefau o brotest. O ystyried y dadleuon presennol, ac yr ydym wedi’u cael yn y Siambr hon, am dollau ar bont Hafren, ni fyddai wedi bod yn ddoeth yn economaidd i godi toll arall ar yr M4 bresennol, ar ôl i fodurwyr dalu i ddod i mewn i Gymru. Felly, mae’r athrylith o Weinidog a feddyliodd am y syniad yn y lle cyntaf—nid y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog presennol ydyw ac nid yw yma—wedi llwyddo i lethu ymdrechion i ddatblygu atebion eraill posibl i’r hyn sydd bellach yn sefyllfa draffig waethaf Cymru. Cawsom chwe mlynedd o wastraffu amser ac egni, pan allasem fod yn ystyried dewisiadau eraill realistig. Yn y cyfamser, mae’r gafael haearnaidd ar yr hyn sy’n cynnal ein bywyd economaidd wedi cryfhau.

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5.50 p.m.

The need to reduce motorway flows around Newport on the current M4 persists. You only have to look at the existing situation at junctions to get onto the M4 and on the M4 itself to see that. The highest number of vehicle movements on Welsh motorways is now concentrated in a relatively short length of motorway, one part of which is now called the famed Malpas strait; it is now a household name across Wales. There cannot be many stretches of road with the infamy of hitting the headlines every day. However, the racecourse analogy of a strait is absolutely false—that is the last thing that it is. Even without the current 50 mph speed restriction, at peak times on the Malpas strait of the M4, most motorists would be really pleased if they could travel at such a high speed along that section of motorway. Achieving 50 mph would be a great benefit.

Mae’r angen am leihau llif y traffig ar yr M4 bresennol o amgylch Casnewydd yn parhau. Nid oes angen ichi ond edrych ar y sefyllfa bresennol ar gyffyrdd sy’n arwain at yr M4 ac ar yr M4 ei hun i weld hynny. Mae’r nifer mwyaf o symudiadau gan gerbydau ar draffyrdd Cymru bellach wedi’i grynhoi mewn rhan gymharol fach o draffordd, ac erbyn hyn mae un rhan ohoni, sef y ‘Malpas straight’ wedi dod yn enwog; mae bellach yn enw cyfarwydd ledled Cymru. Ni all fod llawer o ddarnau o ffordd sydd â’r cywilydd o gyrraedd y penawdau bob dydd. Fodd bynnag, camarweiniol llwyr yw cyffelybu’r ffordd lle mae’r darn syth i gae rasio—dyna’r peth olaf ydyw. Hyd yn oed heb y cyfyngiad cyflymder presennol o 50 milltir yr awr, yn ystod oriau brig yn ardal Malpas ar yr M4 yddai’r rhan fwyaf o fodurwyr yn falch iawn pe gallent deithio mor gyflym â hynny ar hyd y rhan honno o’r draffordd. Byddai cyrraedd 50 milltir yr awr yn fanteisiol iawn.

I wish to pursue what I believe could be part of a suite of measures to reduce traffic flows on this stretch of the M4, particularly at peak times, which is the encouragement of people to move from road to rail—from private to public transport. ‘Encouragement’ is the key word here. It is about making it easier, more convenient and no more costly; those are the watchwords. Otherwise, carrots turn into sticks and, goodness knows, motorists on the M4 around Newport have had enough of those.

Dymunaf drafod yr hyn a gredaf a allai fod yn rhan o gyfres o fesurau i leihau llif y traffig ar y rhan hon o’r M4, yn enwedig yn ystod oriau brig, sef annog pobl i newid o ddefnyddio’r ffyrdd i ddefnyddio’r rheilffyrdd—o gludiant prifat i gludian cyhoeddus. ‘Annog’ yw’r gair allweddol yma. Mae’n golygu ei gwneud yn haws ac yn fwy cyfleus, ond heb fod yn fwy costus; dyna’r arwyddeiriau. Fel arall, mae’r abwyd yn troi’n ffyn, a dyn a ŵyr mae modurwyr ar yr M4 o amgylch Casnewydd wedi cael digon o’r rheini.

I want to look at the potential for developing a rail hub in Gwent for both long-distance and commuter travellers. Severn Tunnel Junction already has four platforms in use, each of which is long enough for the high-speed London-to-Swansea trains. The station was originally designed to be used for that line, and, as a boy, I can remember the train stopping regularly at Severn Tunnel Junction. The current services that stop at that station are to Bristol, Cardiff, the west country, Gloucester, Southampton and beyond. They all stop there on a regular basis. The number of passengers using services from the station has grown enormously in recent years, but there is limited access to the station through

Yr wyf am edrych ar y potensial ar gyfer datblygu canolbwynt rheilffyrdd yng Ngwent ar gyfer teithwyr pellter mawr a chymudwyr. Mae pedwar platfform eisoes yn cael eu defnyddio yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren, bob un yn ddigon hir i’r trenau cyflym o Lundain i Abertawe. Cynlluniwyd yr orsaf yn wreiddiol i’w defnyddio ar gyfer y llinell honno, a gallaf gofio’r trên yn aros yn rheolaidd yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren pan oeddwn yn fachgen ifanc. Y gwasanaethau sy’n aros yn yr orsaf ar hyn o bryd yw’r rheini i Fryste, Caerdydd, de-orllewin Lloegr, Caerloyw, Southampton a thu hwnt. Maent i gyd yn aros yno’n rheolaidd. Mae nifer y teithwyr sy’n

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Rogiet, down a small road, and has only a small paying car park. It has limited ticket sales capacity, although it provides the most friendly station service that I have ever witnessed.

defnyddio gwasanaethau o’r orsaf wedi cynyddu’n aruthrol yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ond mynediad cyfyngedig sydd i’r orsaf drwy Rogiet, ar hyd ffordd fach, lle mae man parcio bach am dâl. Ychydig le sydd yno i werthu tocynnau, er ei fod yn rhoi’r gwasanaeth mwyaf cyfeillgar imi erioed ei gael.

There cannot be many stations that have a motorway so close. The much underused M48 is located less than a kilometre from the station. The Welsh Government owns substantial areas of land alongside the station, which would be suitable for expansion of the passenger services and for car parking. Therefore, there is good motorway access, good parking potential, good train services and a wide catchment area. That catchment area probably includes a third to two thirds of a million people. It seems to me that two actions are needed to take traffic off the M4. The first is to build a direct spur off the M48 to the vacant Government-owned land at Severn Tunnel Junction, with direct access from it onto the B road that currently connects Caldicot with Magor, and which provides many people with the only road connection to the M4. That spur does not have to be of motorway standard. This M48 link would also bring relief to residents of Caldicot, Rogiet, Undy and Magor, who currently have to travel along this B road either to Chepstow for the M48 and the first Severn crossing, or to the M4 Magor interchange to access the motorway network. The evidence in the Government’s own business plan is that this proposal would have a significant impact on journeys in the area. We already have some evidence from the business plan for the M4 relief road that says that this would have a significant impact.

Go brin bod llawer o orsafoedd sydd â thraffordd mor agos. Llai na chilomedr o’r orsaf mae’r M48, nad yw’n cael ei defnyddio’n ddigonol o bell ffordd. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru’n berchen ar ddarnau sylweddol o dir wrth ymyl yr orsaf, a fyddai’n addas ar gyfer ehangu gwasanaethau i deithwyr ac ar gyfer parcio ceir. Felly, mae yna fynediad da i’r draffordd, potensial da ar gyfer parcio, gwasanaethau trenau da, a dalgylch eang. Mae’n debyg bod y dalgylch hwnnw’n cynnwys un neu ddwy ran o dair o filiwn o bobl. Ymddengys imi fod angen dau gam gweithredu i dynnu traffig oddi ar yr M4. Y cyntaf yw adeiladu cangen uniongyrchol oddi ar yr M48 i’r tir gwag sy’n eiddo i’r Llywodraeth yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren, gyda mynediad uniongyrchol oddi arni i’r ffordd dosbarth B sy’n cysylltu Cil-y-coed â Magwyr ar hyn o bryd, ac sy’n darparu’r unig gysylltiad i’r M4 i nifer o bobl. Nid oes yn rhaid i’r gangen honno fod o safon traffordd. Byddai’r cyswllt hwn â’r M48 hefyd yn gymorth i breswylwyr Cil-y-coed, Rogiet, Gwndy, a Magwyr, sy’n gorfod teithio ar hyd y ffordd dosbarth B hon naill ai i Gas-gwent ar gyfer yr M48 a chroesfan gyntaf afon Hafren, neu i gyfnewidfa Magwyr ar yr M4 i gael mynediad i’r rhwydwaith traffyrdd. Y dystiolaeth yng nghynllun busnes y Llywodraeth ei hun yw y byddai’r cynnig hwn yn cael effaith sylweddol ar siwrneiau yn yr ardal. Mae gennym ychydig dystiolaeth eisoes o’r cynllun busnes ar gyfer ffordd liniaru’r M4, sy’n dweud y byddai hyn yn cael effaith sylweddol.

The second action that the Government needs to take is to increase the number of services stopping at Severn Tunnel Junction. Both high-speed inter-city services and extra commuting services are needed. That does not mean that we need more trains; it is just that more of the trains that pass through

Yr ail gam gweithredu y mae angen i’r Llywodraeth ei gymryd yw cynyddu nifer y gwasanaethau sy’n aros yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren. Mae angen gwasanaethau cyflym rhwng dinasoedd a gwasanaethau cymudo ychwanegol hefyd. Nid yw hynny’n golygu bod arnom angen mwy o drenau;

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would stop there. That is all that is required. Present passenger usage, even with limited parking facilities, already exceeds the typical percentage growth in much of Britain’s rail network, so it seems to me that the case for more services stopping at the station has already been made.

mae’n golygu y byddai mwy o’r trenau sy’n mynd drwy’r orsaf yn aros yno. Dyna’r cyfan y mae ei angen. Mae nifer y teithwyr sy’n defnyddio’r orsaf ar hyn o bryd, hyd yn oed gyda chyfleusterau parcio cyfyngedig, eisoes yn fwy na’r twf canrannol nodweddiadol a welir ar draws llawer o rwydwaith rheilffyrdd Prydain, felly, ymddengys imi fod yr achos o blaid cael mwy o wasanaethau i aros yn yr orsaf eisoes yn bod.

This will need Welsh Government negotiation, to provide some stopping trains on the Swansea-Paddington route. The Cardiff-Paddington journey now takes two hours and five minutes; 20 years ago, it took one hour and 45 minutes. It is now 20 minutes longer than it was 20 years ago. I understand the argument of Network Rail and First Great Western that if you stop at an additional station, the journey will be five to eight minutes longer. However, one of the counter-arguments could be that alternate trains on the Swansea-Paddington line could stop at Didcot Parkway or Severn Tunnel Junction, but not both. Didcot Parkway is in a similar position, providing a hub for people to access the Oxford area. It does not provide a huge number of passengers changing trains. We could replace every other Didcot Parkway stop with a Severn Tunnel Junction stop without affecting the overall journey time.

Bydd hyn yn golygu bod angen i Lywodraeth Cymru drafod, i ddarparu rhai trenau sy’n aros ar lwybr Abertawe i orsaf Paddington. Bellach, mae’r daith o Gaerdydd i orsaf Paddington yn cymryd dwy awr a phum munud; 20 mlynedd yn ôl, yr oedd yn cymryd awr a 45 munud. Mae’n cymryd 20 munud yn fwy yn awr nag ydoedd 20 mlynedd yn ôl. Deallaf ddadl Network Rail a First Great Western y bydd y daith ryw bum i wyth munud yn hwy os bydd trenau’n aros mewn gorsaf ychwanegol. Fodd bynnag, un o’r gwrthddadleuon posibl i hynny fyddai dweud y gallai bob yn ail drên ar linell Abertawe i orsaf Paddington aros ym Mharcffordd Didcot neu yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren, ond nid yn y ddau. Mae Parcffordd Didcot mewn sefyllfa debyg, gan ei fod yn ganolbwynt i bobl fynd i ardal Rhydychen. Nid oes nifer enfawr o deithwyr yn newid trenau yno. Gallai bob yn ail drên aros yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren yn hytrach nag ym Mharcffordd Didcot heb wneud y daith gyfan yn hwy.

I believe that the proposed electrification of this main line is an excellent opportunity for negotiation. However, even after electrification, we are told that the journey will only be as fast as it was 20 years ago, so we are not talking about magic. These two actions that I am proposing require no new station, nor any new trains; it is just about the trains that pass through Severn Tunnel Junction stopping there. Crucially, most of the levers for improvement are in the hands of the Welsh Government, and I understand that cash is available from the pot for the development of an M4 relief road. The consequences of a strong Government lead and a successful implementation of these actions would be to revitalise the economy of south-east Wales by providing high-speed

Credaf fod y cynnig i drydaneiddo’r brif linell hon yn gyfle gwych ar gyfer trafod. Fodd bynnag, dywedir wrthym na fydd y daith yn ddim cynt nag ydoedd 20 mlynedd yn ôl, hyd yn oed ar ôl trydaneiddio. Felly, nid ydym yn sôn am hud a lledrith. Nid yw’r ddau gam gweithredu hyn yr wyf yn eu cynnig yn gofyn am orsaf newydd, na threnau newydd; mae’n golygu cael y trenau sy’n mynd drwy Gyffordd Twnnel Hafren i aros yno. Yr hyn sy’n hanfodol yw bod y rhan fwyaf o’r dulliau o wella’r sefyllfa yn nwylo Llywodraeth Cymru, a deallaf fod arian ar gael o’r gronfa ar gyfer datblygu ffordd liniaru i’r M4. Canlyniadau cael arweiniad cadarn gan y Llywodraeth a chymryd y camau gweithredu hyn yn llwyddiannus fyddai adfywio economi’r de-ddwyrain drwy

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rail and motorway access to existing industrial development land while opening up the potential for extended leisure use.

ddarparu mynediad cyflym ar y rheilffordd a’r draffordd i dir datblygu diwydiannol sydd yno, gan agor y potensial ar gyfer mwy o ddefnydd hamdden.

Rail passenger traffic projections are needed for the future. Now is the time for the planning groundwork to be put in place. Government needs to undertake traffic flow predictions, with estimates of the increased use of services if such a system were in place. We can base those projections on work that has already been done. A substantial portion of south-east Wales would have access to this commuting route on the south Wales main line from Newport to Cardiff and beyond. I know that there is discussion about further, intermediate stations between Cardiff and Newport and elsewhere. There are already stations on the line. It means that this line could become a real economic driver and ease commuter transport in south Wales.

Mae angen amcanestyniadau o draffig teithwyr ar y rheilffordd ar gyfer y dyfodol. Dyma’r amser i wneud y gwaith cynllunio cychwynnol. Mae angen i’r Llywodraeth fynd ati i ragfynegi llif traffig, gydag amcangyfrif o faint yn fwy byddai’n defnyddio’r gwasanaethau pe bai system o’r fath ar waith. Gallwn seilio’r amcanestyniadau hynny ar waith sydd eisoes wedi’i wneud. Byddai cyfran sylweddol o’r de-ddwyrain yn gallu defnyddio’r llwybr cymudo hwn ar brif linell y de o Gasnewydd i Gaerdydd a thu hwnt. Gwn fod trafodaethau’n digwydd ynghylch gorsafoedd eraill hanner y ordd rhwng Caerdydd a Chasnewydd ac mewn mannau eraill. Mae yna orsafoedd ar y llinell eisoes. Golyga hyn y gallai’r llinell hon ddod yn yrrwr economaidd go iawn gan esmwytho cludiant cymudwyr yn y de.

In conclusion, a Gwent rail hub is a transport solution for the near future, and not the distant future.

I gloi, mae canolbwynt rheilffyrdd yng Ngwent yn ateb i broblemau cludiant ar gyfer y dyfodol agos, nid y dyfodol pell.

William Graham: I am grateful to Mike for bringing this to the Assembly today, and I offer my broad support for what he has in mind. That does not mean to say that I do not retain my subjective interest in the possibility of an M4 relief road in the future. The prospect of a Gwent parkway is worth while and well argued, and I trust that the business case can be made. The difficulty probably is that, for many people in the Wye Valley and the eastern part of Gwent, they can easily travel to Kemble or Bristol Parkway, and take London trains from there. A stronger case, therefore, needs to be made, particularly on the commercial side. Many of us remember the large junction at Severn tunnel, and I am sure that there are ways of increasing the usage made by freight trains.

William Graham: Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar i Mike am ddod â hyn i’r Cynulliad heddiw, a chynigiaf fy nghefnogaeth gyffredinol i’r hyn sydd ganddo mewn golwg. Nid yw hynny’n golygu nad wyf yn cadw fy niddordeb goddrychol ym mhosibilrwydd cael ffordd liniaru ar gyfer yr M4 yn y dyfodol. Mae’r syniad o gael parcffordd yng Ngwent yn werth chweil, ac mae yna ddadleuon da o’i blaid, a hyderaf y bydd modd cyflwyno’r achos busnes. Mae’n debyg mai’r anhawster i lawer o bobl yn Nyffryn Gwy a rhan ddwyreiniol Gwent yw y gallant deithio’n rhwydd i Kemble neu Barcffordd Bryste, a dal trenau Llundain oddi yno. Felly, mae angen cyflwyno achos cryfach, yn enwedig ar yr ochr fasnachol. Gall nifer ohonom gofio’r gyffordd fawr yn nhwnnel Hafren, ac yr wyf yn siŵr fod ffyrdd i gael trenau nwyddau i’w defnyddio’n fwy helaeth.

6.00 p.m.

The other nostalgic aspect of the Severn Yr agwedd arall ar Gyffordd Twnnel Hafren

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Tunnel Junction was that, before the Severn bridge was built, we used to rely on the pretty terrifying ferry. You could put your car on the ferry at Severn Tunnel Junction and go across to Bristol, which, for us, was a great trip.

sy’n codi hiraeth oedd ein bod yn arfer dibynnu ar y fferi, a oedd yn ddigon brawychus, cyn adeiladu pont Hafren. Gallech roi eich car ar y fferi yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren a theithio draw i Fryste, a oedd, i ni, yn daith wych.

As a party, we are committed to extending the use of rail as much as is possible and to taking as much freight as possible from road to rail. If this proposal is intended to bring that forward, I wish you luck, Mike.

Fel plaid, yr ydym wedi ymrwymo i ymestyn defnyddio’r rheilffordd gymaint â phosibl a throsglwyddo cludo nwyddau o’r ffyrdd i’r rheilffyrdd. Os bwriad y cynnig hwn yw cyflwyno hynny, dymunaf bob hwyl ichi, Mike.

The Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport (Ieuan Wyn Jones): I congratulate Mike German on securing the short debate and for using it to pursue a matter in which he has long had a great deal of interest and for which he has campaigned for some time. This is precisely the kind of debate that we should be having on Wednesday afternoons in the Chamber.

Y Dirprwy Brif Weinidog a’r Gweinidog dros yr Economi a Thrafnidiaeth (Ieuan Wyn Jones): Yr wyf yn llongyfarch Mike German ar gael y ddadl fer ac am ei defnyddio i drafod mater y bu ganddo lawer iawn o ddiddordeb ynddo ers amser ac y bu’n ymgyrchu drosto ers tro. Dyma’r union fath o ddadl y dylem fod yn ei chael ar brynhawniau Mercher yn y Siambr.

Examining some of the transport solutions for Gwent has exercised Governments for a long time. Mike acknowledged that many of the discussions on the improvements for the M4 have been happening for many years, even before 2004. He mentioned the plan in 2004 of having a tolled relief motorway, and, even before that, there were proposals to improve the M4 around Newport. He is quite right to say that the M4 is an important economic artery, and he put it in the context of not just the local and regional economy, but also the international economy, given that it is the route between south Wales and England and beyond. It was once described to me as the route from Cork to Moscow.

Mae archwilio rhai o’r atebion i broblemau cludiant yng Ngwent wedi peri pryder i Lywodraethau ers amser. Cydnabu Mike fod nifer o’r trafodaethau ar y gwelliannau ar gyfer yr M4 yn mynd rhagddynt ers llawer blwyddyn, hyd yn oed cyn 2004. Soniodd am y cynllun yn 2004 o gael traffordd liniaru gyda thollau, a hyd yn oed cyn hynny yr oedd cynigion i wella’r M4 o amgylch Casnewydd. Mae’n hollol iawn i ddweud bod yr M4 yn briffordd economaidd bwysig, ac fe’i rhoddodd yng nghyd-destun yr economi leol a rhanbarthol, yn ogystal â’r economi ryngwladol, o gofio mai dyma’r llwybr rhwng de Cymru a Lloegr a thu hwnt. Fe’i disgrifiwyd wrthyf unwaith fel y llwybr o Gorc i Foscow.

The proposal that was considered for the M4 relief road was for a tolled motorway, as Mike rightly pointed out. The original intention to toll only the new road and not the existing road was made on the basis of the M6 relief road, which tolls only the new road. However, the experience there has shown that people tend to use the non-tolled motorway rather than the tolled one, and so the amount of traffic taken away onto the new tolled road is significantly reduced, thus reducing the economic benefit. When it

Y cynnig a ystyriwyd ar gyfer ffordd liniaru’r M4 oedd traffordd gyda thollau, ac yr oedd Mike yn hollol iawn wrth dynnu sylw at hyn. Yr oedd y bwriad gwreiddiol i godi toll ar y ffordd newydd yn unig ac nid ar y ffordd bresennol yn seiliedig ar ffordd liniaru’r M6, sy’n codi toll ar y ffordd newydd yn unig. Fodd bynnag, mae’r profiadau yno wedi dangos bod pobl yn tueddu i ddefnyddio’r draffordd heb doll yn hytrach na’r un gyda tholl, ac felly mae tipyn llai o draffig yn teithio ar hyd y ffordd newydd gyda tholl,

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became absolutely clear that both sections of the M4 would have to be tolled, serious issues arose surrounding its financing. Mike will be aware that other issues, such as the environmental considerations, were also pursued in addition to the financial ones. The truth is that, when we looked at the financing, we saw that the M4 relief road was unaffordable. I think that Mike acknowledged that, and he did not criticise the decision that we took.

gan leihau’r budd economaidd. Pan ddaeth yn gwbl glir y byddai’n rhaid codi toll ar ddwy ran yr M4, cododd problemau difrifol ynghylch ei hariannu. Bydd Mike yn gwybod bod materion eraill, megis yr ystyriaethau amgylcheddol, hefyd wedi eu trafod yn ogystal â’r rhai ariannol. Y gwir amdani, o edrych ar yr arian, yw inni weld nad oedd modd fforddio ffordd liniaru’r M4. Credaf fod Mike wedi cydnabod hynny, ac ni feirniadodd ein penderfyniad.

Mike mentioned the alternatives that could be pursued and, indeed, offered one such alternative. The alternatives to the current problems with the M4 cannot be limited, in my judgment, to public transport options; we must look at the alternatives to the M4 itself. That is why we made it clear in the announcement that it was not that we were simply not proceeding with the relief road but that we wanted to proceed with relief measures around the M4, particularly the area around Newport. The proposal that we have in mind is to purchase the private road that currently goes through Llanwern steelworks and to link it up to the southern Newport distributor road, as that would provide alternative access around Newport. We are carrying out some work on that proposal, and my officials are in discussions with Corus about the purchase of that road, looking at how it links in to the southern distributor road. I believe that that will be an excellent opportunity for an alternative. Therefore, we have to look at it in the context of the availability of a road solution as well as a public transport solution.

Soniodd Mike am y dewisiadau eraill y gellid eu hystyried, ac yn wir, cynigiodd un dewis o’r fath. Yn fy marn i, ni ellir cyfyngu’r dewisiadau eraill i ateb y problemau presennol ar yr M4 i ddewisiadau’n ymwneud â chludiant cyhoeddus; rhaid inni edrych ar y dewisiadau eraill yn lle’r M4 ei hun. Dyna pam y gwnaethom yn glir yn y cyhoeddiad nad peidio â bwrw ymlaen â’r ffordd liniaru yn unig yr oeddem, ond ein bod am fwrw ymlaen â mesurau lliniaru o amgylch yr M4, yn enwedig yr ardal o amgylch Casnewydd. Y cynnig sydd gennym mewn golwg yw prynu’r ffordd breifat sy’n mynd drwy waith dur Llan-wern a’i chysylltu â ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol Casnewydd, gan y byddai hynny’n rhoi mynediad amgen o amgylch Casnewydd. Yr ydym yn gwneud rhywfaint o waith ar y cynnig hwnnw, ac mae fy swyddogion yn trafod gyda Corus ynghylch prynu’r ffordd honno, gan edrych ar y modd y mae’n cysylltu â’r ffordd ddosbarthu ddeheuol. Credaf y bydd hynny’n gyfle gwych i gael ateb arall i’r broblem. Felly, rhaid inni edrych ar hyn yng nghyd-destun ateb yn ymwneud â ffyrdd yn ogystal ag ateb yn ymwneud â chludiant cyhoeddus.

The other matter to consider, which I found quite surprising, is that much of the traffic flows along that section of the M4 are made up of local traffic. Therefore, we are looking at changing the junction system along the M4 to take some of the local traffic away, thereby reducing the volume of traffic. As Mike quite rightly points out, it is that section that is causing the major problems. If we can find an alternative route and can divert some of the local traffic away from that section of motorway, we can make some real improvements.

Y mater arall i’w ystyried, ac fe’m synnodd braidd, yw mai traffig lleol yw llawer o’r llif traffig ar hyd y rhan honno o’r M4. Felly, yr ydym yn edrych ar newid y system gyffyrdd ar hyd yr M4 i fynd â rhywfaint o’r traffig lleol i ffwrdd, gan leihau’r llif traffig felly. Mae Mike yn hollol iawn i dynnu sylw mai’r rhan honno sy’n achosi’r problemau mawr. Os gallwn ddod o hyd i lwybr gwahanol a dargyfeirio rhywfaint o’r traffig lleol oddi ar y rhan honno o’r draffordd, gallwn wneud rhai gwelliannau go iawn.

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Mike also mentioned park-and-ride facilities. We are looking at a range of solutions, including the alternative relief road, the alignment of some of the junctions to take local traffic away, and a range of park-and-ride schemes. They will be of help not just to Newport but also in reducing the traffic flows into Cardiff. We are looking at a number of those solutions. We understand that one possible solution concerns the Severn Tunnel Junction station. We have not made any final decisions on that because we need to look at precise locations, but we are considering a number of solutions. Mike also mentioned that we may well be looking at opening new stations along the route for regional train journeys, which will enable us to give people realistic alternatives to the use of their cars.

Soniodd Mike hefyd am gyfleusterau parcio a theithio. Yr ydym yn edrych ar ystod o atebion i’r broblem, gan gynnwys y ffordd liniaru amgen, newid aliniad rhai o’r cyffyrdd i fynd â thraffig lleol i ffwrdd, ac ystod o gynlluniau parcio a theithio. Byddant yn helpu Casnewydd ac yn lleihau’r llif traffig i mewn i Gaerdydd. Yr ydym yn edrych ar nifer o’r atebion hynny. Deallwn fod un ateb posibl yn ymwneud â gorsaf Cyffordd Twnnel Hafren. Nid ydym wedi gwneud penderfyniadau terfynol am hynny oherwydd bod angen inni edrych ar union leoliadau, ond yr ydym yn ystyried nifer o atebion. Soniodd Mike hefyd y gallem fod yn ystyried agor gorsafoedd newydd ar hyd y llwybr ar gyfer teithiau trên rhanbarthol, a fydd yn ein galluogi i roi dewisiadau realistig eraill i bobl yn lle defnyddio’u ceir.

There is nothing in our current transport plan, the forward rail programme, or the forward road programme that would allow us to do some of the things that he has mentioned today. In other words, they are not included within that particular plan. For example, Mike talked about the possibility of having a spur off the M48 leading to a station. If such a proposal were to come forward to us, we would be prepared to consider it in light of the funding available, to see whether we could make a contribution. However, the Government itself has no plans to undertake that work.

Nid oes dim yn ein cynllun trafnidiaeth presennol, yn y flaenraglen rheilffyrdd nac yn y flaenraglen ffyrdd a fyddai’n caniatáu inni wneud rhai o’r pethau y mae wedi sôn amdanynt heddiw. Mewn geiriau eraill, nid ydynt wedi’u cynnwys yn y cynllun penodol hwnnw. Er enghraifft, soniodd Mike am bosibilrwydd cael cangen oddi ar yr M48 yn arwain at orsaf. Pe bai cynnig o’r fath yn cael ei gyflwyno inni, byddem yn barod i’w ystyried yng ngoleuni’r arian sydd ar gael, i weld a allem wneud cyfraniad. Fodd bynnag, nid oes gan y Llywodraeth ei hun gynlluniau i wneud y gwaith hwnnw.

Increasing the number of stops is a difficult issue, because people travelling from south Wales to London tell us that they want to reduce the journey time. That is why we have come to an arrangement with First Great Western that it will take out some of the stops on the journey between Swansea and London to give people travelling to London, particularly in the morning, a swifter journey. The problem with an extra stop on the line, therefore, is that it would extend the journey time, as Mike acknowledged. Mike suggested substituting the Severn Tunnel Junction stop for another on the line as an alternative, and that could be discussed with First Great Western. We, as a Government, are not responsible for the First Great Western franchise. I am not sure whether Mike has discussed the matter with First Great

Mae cynyddu nifer y gorsafoedd lle bydd trenau’n aros yn fater anodd, oherwydd mae pobl sy’n teithio i Lundain o’r de yn dweud wrthym eu bod am leihau’r amser a gymer y daith. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi dod i drefniant â First Great Western, sef y bydd yn aros mewn llai o orsafoedd rhwng Abertawe a Llundain er mwyn i’r daith fod yn gyflymach i bobl sy’n teithio i Lundain, yn enwedig yn y bore. Y broblem gydag aros mewn gorsaf ychwanegol ar y llinell, felly, yw y byddai’n gwneud y daith yn hwy, fel y cydnabu Mike. Awgrymodd Mike mai dewis arall fyddai aros yng Nghyffordd Twnnel Hafren yn lle gorsaf arall ar y llinell, a gellid trafod hynny gyda First Great Western. Nid ydym ni, fel Llywodraeth, yn gyfrifol am fasnachfraint First Great Western. Nid wyf yn siŵr a yw Mike wedi trafod y mater gyda

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Western, but if he wants me to discuss it with the company, perhaps in one of our regular meetings, I will do so. However, others are constantly telling us that they want fewer stops on the route, rather than more.

First Great Western, ond os yw am imi ei drafod gyda’r cwmni, efallai yn un o’n cyfarfodydd rheolaidd, gwnaf hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae pobl eraill yn dweud wrthym yn gyson eu bod am weld trenau’n aros mewn llai o orsafoedd ar hyd y llwybr, yn hytrach na mwy.

6.10 p.m.

The electrification issue is also a part of the solution. If we can decrease journey times through electrification, it would be of immense benefit—although additional stops might mean bringing journey times back down to what they were all those years ago. The development of the Severn Tunnel Junction could be looked at in that context. The problem with that is that it will not happen tomorrow, but maybe some years down the line—if you will pardon the pun. It would be useful to take that on board, and this is probably the time for us to do so.

Mae trydaneiddio hefyd yn rhan o’r ateb. Os gallwn leihau’r amser a gymer teithiau drwy drydaneiddio, byddai o fudd anferthol—er y gallai aros mewn gorsaf ychwanegol olygu dod â hyd siwrneiau yn ôl i’r hyn ydoedd flynyddoedd yn ôl. Gellid edrych ar ddatblygu Cyffordd Twnnel Hafren yn y cyd-destun hwnnw. Y broblem gyda hynny yw na fydd yn digwydd yfory, ond efallai ymhen rhai blynyddoedd. Byddai’n ddefnyddiol ystyried hynny, ac mae’n debyg mai’n awr yw’r amser inni wneud hynny.

Another factor that we have to remember is that funding the electrification will be a matter for the next Westminster Government, and we can expect an announcement on that if and when a new Government is elected. However, the electrification of the line is an important part of the overall transport solution for this area, because electrification and speeding up journey times between south Wales and London are crucial for economic reasons, as well as for passengers. Economic opportunities in an area can be offered up if there are fast rail links.

Ffactor arall y mae’n rhaid inni ei gofio yw mai mater i Lywodraeth nesaf San Steffan fydd ariannu’r gwaith trydaneiddio, a gallwn ddisgwyl cyhoeddiad am hynny pan gaiff Llywodraeth newydd ei hethol, os digwydd hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae trydaneiddio’r llinell yn rhan bwysig o’r ateb cyffredinol i broblemau cludiant yr ardal hon, oherwydd bod trydaneiddio a chyflymu siwrneiau rhwng y de a Llundain yn hanfodol am resymau economaidd, yn ogystal ag i deithwyr. Gellir cynnig cyfleoedd economaidd mewn ardal os oes cysylltiadau rheilffyrdd cyflym ar gael.

It is also important for us as a Government to improve the opportunities for high-speed links. Electrification is a medium-term issue but, in the longer term, the high-speed rail link will be important for Wales. As I understand it, the current high-speed proposals do not include Wales. There are plans to go the midlands and to the north of England, but we are prepared to work with others to fund a feasibility study on extending that service to Wales, and I have spoken to the company involved about that. If the high-speed link goes ahead and does not include Wales, we believe that there will be economic problems for us. We have to make sure that Wales benefits from that, and I

Mae hefyd yn bwysig i ni fel Llywodraeth wella’r cyfleoedd ar gyfer cysylltiadau cyflym. Mae trydaneiddio’n fater ar gyfer y tymor canolig, ond yn y tymor hwy bydd y cyswllt rheilffyrdd cyflym yn bwysig i Gymru. Fel y deallaf, nid yw’r cynigion presennol ar gyfer trenau cyflym yn cynnwys Cymru. Mae cynlluniau i fynd i ganolbarth Lloegr ac i ogledd Lloegr, ond yr ydym yn barod i weithio gydag eraill i ariannu astudiaeth ddichonoldeb ar ymestyn y gwasanaeth hwnnw i Gymru, ac yr wyf wedi siarad â’r cwmni perthnasol am hynny. Os aiff y cyswllt cyflym yn ei flaen ac os na fydd yn cynnwys Cymru, credwn y bydd yn achosi problemau economaidd inni. Rhaid

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would welcome support from all parties in the Chamber on that.

inni wneud yn siŵr fod Cymru’n elwa o hynny, a byddwn yn croesawu cefnogaeth gan bob plaid yn y Siambr ar hynny.

Mike has put forward an interesting proposal, and I know that he has been campaigning on it for some time. Although I have not been able to give him an assurance today that the Government will adopt it, there are a number of areas in which we could work together, and I would be very happy to do that, even after today’s debate.

Mae Mike wedi cyflwyno cynnig diddorol, a gwn ei fod wedi ymgyrchu drosto ers tro. Er nad wyf wedi gallu rhoi sicrwydd iddo heddiw y bydd y Llywodraeth yn ei fabwysiadu, mae yna nifer o feysydd y gallem gydweithio arnynt, a byddwn yn hapus iawn gwneud hynny, hyd yn oed ar ôl y ddadl heddiw.

The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings today’s business to a close.

Y Dirprwy Lywydd: Daw hynny â busnes heddiw i ben.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 6.12 p.m.The meeting ended at 6.12 p.m.

Aelodau a’u PleidiauMembers and their Parties

Andrews, Leighton (Llafur – Labour)Asghar, Mohammad (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Barrett, Lorraine (Llafur – Labour)Bates, Mick (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Black, Peter (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Bourne, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Burnham, Eleanor (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Burns, Angela (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Butler, Rosemary (Llafur – Labour)Cairns, Alun (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Chapman, Christine (Llafur – Labour)Cuthbert, Jeff (Llafur – Labour)Davidson, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Alun (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew (Llafur – Labour)Davies, Andrew R.T. (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Davies, Jocelyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Davies, Paul (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives) Elis-Thomas, Dafydd (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Evans, Nerys (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Franks, Chris (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)German, Michael (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Graham, William (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Gregory, Janice (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, John (Llafur – Labour)Griffiths, Lesley (Llafur – Labour)Gibbons, Brian (Llafur – Labour)Hart, Edwina (Llafur – Labour)Hutt, Jane (Llafur – Labour)Isherwood, Mark (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)James, Irene (Llafur – Labour)Jenkins, Bethan (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Alun Ffred (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ann (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Carwyn (Llafur – Labour)Jones, Elin (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Gareth (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Helen Mary (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Jones, Ieuan Wyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Law, Trish (Annibynnol – Independent)

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Lewis, Huw (Llafur – Labour)Lloyd, David (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Lloyd, Val (Llafur – Labour)Melding, David (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Mewies, Sandy (Llafur – Labour)Millar, Darren (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Jonathan (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Morgan, Rhodri (Llafur – Labour)Neagle, Lynne (Llafur – Labour)Ramsay, Nick (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Randerson, Jenny (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Ryder, Janet (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Sargeant, Carl (Llafur – Labour)Sinclair, Karen (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Gwenda (Llafur – Labour)Thomas, Rhodri Glyn (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)Watson, Joyce (Llafur – Labour)Williams, Brynle (Ceidwadwyr Cymreig – Welsh Conservatives)Williams, Kirsty (Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru – Welsh Liberal Democrats)Wood, Leanne (Plaid Cymru – The Party of Wales)

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