therationalizer_vs_hamzaandreastzortzis

8/4/2019 TheRationalizer_Vs_HamzaAndreasTzortzis

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*Note: Explicit mention of Skype in the accompanying email



*Note: Steve is mistaken in the next post, my post was not removed, it was in another thread.

*Note: In the next post Steve explicitly mentions it is a Skype debate, and Hamza accepts.



*Note: In the next comment I mention Skype again to ensure that Hamza has seen it is a Skype

debate.

June 26th

2011, Hamza appears on The Magic Sandwich Show for a number of hours, here is the

point where I call in and give him a difficult question regarding his love for an entity that is going to

burn his parents in hell for eternity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWYFhmaJxt4

I’d have loved to have finished my point but DPRJones cut me off, oh well. I still had mid-July to look

forward to, as planned; I’ve saved all the good stuff until then!






*Note: I explicitly mention Skype again, twice.

*Note: I did not receive a reply either on facebook or via email, so I sent this – in which I explicitly

mention Skype again.



*Note: Hamza shows that he was well aware that he had agreed to a Skype discussion in his next

email, which is a response to the above email in which I do NOT mention Skype.



*Note: Hamza deleted all comments on his facebook page regarding this conversation so the

beginning is missing. Essentially I asked him if he was going to debate me on Skype as agreed, even

though I had already told him that face to face was not possible for me he replied that skype is not

conducive for conversations and that he would ONLY have the debate face to face. I felt he was

setting a debating condition that he already knew I could not meet, rather than honouring the

conditions he had clearly already agreed to.



Seeing as Hamza was now saying he would ONLY meet in person I sent him this email:

Note that I clearly told him that travelling is not an option for me, and meeting him within travelling

distance of our house is not possible either. Therefore having a face-to-face debate was impossible

under any circumstances.



I did not want to go into the personal details as to why this was impossible for me, suffice to say it

was simply not an option – although I was forced to reveal more than I wished to during the ensuing

conversation as Hamza kept implying I was merely making things up as I went along, even though I

had already told him this was impossible BEFORE the following conversation.

This is the conversation that followed where Hamza essentially refused to honour his original

agreement to debate with me on Skype. It occurred on June 21st

(one day after my email) and is not

all in English because it was supplied by Steve Mang who does not live in an English speaking

country. The snapshots were taken on the 21st

of June.

*Note how Hamza claims that Skype was never part of the agreement, when from previous emails

and messages it was clear from the start that this was always going to be a Skype debate.



*Note: Again I try to avoid explaining WHY I cannot meet in person



*Note: In the next post I clearly meant face-to-face is the only NON-option



This is a screenshot of the link I pasted



*Note: In the next comment Hamza says this is the first time I mentioned a promise to my wife, but I

had in fact mentioned it 23 hours before. He accuses me of “twists and turns” as if I am trying to

avoid the debate *I* requested, and also the debate *I* am arguing that we have as agreed.



*Note: The following post was a response to Hamza accusing me of making things up. I decided to

explain part of the circumstances which led to my promise that I would not mix my online life with

my private life. I apologise for blotting out where I was demonstrating, but I should not have

mentioned it in public. Previously someone has been able to identify my personal blog from

information I have accidentally revealed and from that discovered my full name and could

potentially have discovered my home address also.



*Note: This is the end of the page that was managed to be saved, all I can do now is to quote from

email notifications.



*Note: I stated that a strong argument stands on its own merits, and doesn’t require good

showmanship.



*Note: I said that I had explained why I am *unable* to have a face to face discussion, and asked

Hamza to explain what is wrong with Skype that makes him unable to use it as agreed, but he

refused to give an explanation.

*Note: An ironic statement from a man that went to the Atheist convention to spread Dawah, and

then when someone tried to debate with him replied “You’re not Richard Dawkins, no offence,

sorry” and walked away

I noticed that the older posts had now disappeared and assumed Hamza was deleting them because

of my post which revealed some personal information about myself, so I thanked him for deleting

my post.



*Note: Can’t remember what I said here, but was probably along the lines of “I suppose that isconcluded then.”

*Note: I replied something like “And I hope there is a high chaos probability that your life will be

enjoyable too”

*Note: Hamza then confirms that he has been to my youtube channel, but says he has only watched

one video.



*Note: This is what the topic looks like now...

My confusion regarding Hamza’s refusal to debate me is as follows

1. He cites The Magic Sandwich Show as the bad experience that put him off Skype, but it was

the format of the show that was not conducive to Dawah and not the method of

communication (Skype) – nothing would have been different if he had been sitting in the

same room as those guys.

2. He clearly uses Skype in his personal life and so would already have been familiar with the

quality of the audio/video, presumably before he agreed to debate with me over Skype.

3. It was not until two weeks after The Magic Sandwich Show that Hamza mentioned his

aversion to using Skype .4. Now Skype is simply out of the question for him, and yet he refuses to state exactly why.



He clearly admits that he has been to my youtube channel, there it is clear that I have actually

bothered to spend time investigating Islam AND the bogus miracle claims that go with it.

Presumably he visited my channel some time after being on The Magic Sandwich Show and probably

just before trying to move the goalposts so that I could not debate with him.

If ever you read this Hamza, my original offer still stands. I am familiar with your arguments and

they are very weak. I would thoroughly enjoy sitting face-to-face with you over Skype, both of us in

the comfort of our own homes, and chatting with you about why your beliefs are based entirely on

erroneous information and poor logic.

I would also like to say that there are 2 reasons why I think you won’t accept my offer

1. I know too much for you to pull the wool over my eyes with fake claims.

2. You seem to favour formal debates in which you can ignore awkward questions from your

opponent and instead make a speech rather than an argument. The format I suggested

would not permit you to get away with that either.

A deep critical analysis of your claims would reveal them to be empty, and that is I think the real

reason you decided not to debate me. Your ridiculous offers to travel anywhere in the world to

meet me in person and pay babysitters was just your way of trying to look like you weren’t backing

out, but the reality was that you only made these offers *after* I had already told you in private that

a real-life meeting was not possible.

I’ll now see if Adam Deen will have the balls to debate with me on Skype instead. I am working my

way up. First you, then the person you copy your arguments from (Adam Deen), and in an ideal

world I’d next go to the person Adam copies from – but I don’t think William Lane Craig would be

interested

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