topo guide
DESCRIPTION
A discussion from 8a.nuTRANSCRIPT
-
Forum:GLOBAL /News/Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction Loginintocontribute
Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction
www.8a.nu
2009020600:00:00
"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"
JohanSvensson
2009020603:42:32
Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!
MattHall 2009020604:41:53
It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.
jghedge 2009020608:02:03
"WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."
Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.
Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?
StefanoVarnerin
2009020609:29:36
Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?
AlanJames 2009020609:51:44
OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.
ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.
Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.
Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbysellinglocalguidebooks.InourextensiveexperiencetheneteffectofanEnglishlanguageguidebookofferingbroadcoverageofanareaisthatmoretravellingclimbersvisitanareawhichresultsinaboostinlocaltradeandanincreaseinlocalguidebooksales.
ThereismoreinformationabouttheRockfaxpolicyonAccessandBoltingherehttp://www.rockfax.com/general/access.html
AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com
gianluca
2009020610:01:30
moneyornot,theaccess(andfreecampsite,insomecases)issueisveryimportant.
Ifatopoisneveruptodateonthisstuff,itseemsagoodreasonnottobuyit.
Itisalsotruethata(hopefully)smallpartoftheclimbingcommunitylacksrespectandcommonsensewhencomingtoaccessissues:10minutesmorewalkareoftenportrayedasabiginjustice*.Sotheyarehappierinnotbeinginformed,maybe...
*seecresciano.I'veseenagroupofitalianclimbersobviouslygivingafuckaboutthe"strongsuggestion"topark@thevillage,andsayingalotofbullshittoportraytheirnegligenceasafightforfreedomorsthlikethat...Happytonoticethatvisitingclimbersfromgermanspeakingareaslookedmuchmoresensitiveandawareofthiskindofissues.
AlanJames 2009020610:18:23
InreplytojghedgeandStefano:
Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens.
InthiscasecorrectaccessinformationisthemostimportantissueandthatiswhereMarcohasgotitcompletelywrong.Howcanalocalguidebookhaveaccurateinformationtoacragifitis10yearsoutofdateordoesn'tevenexist?
Publishingthecorrectaccessinformationinbooksthatarewidelyavailableisthebestwaytocommunicatetotravellingclimbers.Iwouldwelcomeanycontributionsfromlocalclimberswhoareconcernedabouttheaccessinformationtotheircragnotbeingaccurate,althoughweareresearchingitverycarefullyourselves.
Alan
DavidAtchisonJones
2009020610:47:01
Hitherefolks,youcanalwaystrustMarcoTtostirthingsupthatisnothingnewofcourse.Hebringsuptheusualcompletebunkum(rubbish)abouttopoguidebooks.Thereare4commonpointsthatcanbedealtwithseparatelyandshouldbe.1.Access:Thisisanimportantissueandcanonlybedealtwithonarealtimebasis,sosimplyallclimbersshouldvisitalocaltouristofficewhenclimbinginanareatoseeanyuptodateaccessinformation.Thiscanbeupdateddailyandpostedinthewindowofthetoursitoffice.Thisisasensiblesystemandcanbeseenbybothlocalresidentsandvisitingclimbers.2.BoltFunding:Inanylocalareatherearetraditionsforclimbingandboltingandthisshouldremainintotallyatthewishesofthelocalclimbingcommunity.Howitisfundedisuptothemofcourse.Ihavealwaysfeltthatifmoneyistobesoughtfromclimbersthenchargetheactualclimberswhilstontheroutes,theyaretheonlypeoplewhoactuallybenefitfromtheequipping.3.Books:Thesearecommercialproductsinacommercialmarket.Itisalwayswisetotreatbooktopicsasseparate.IfIbuyabookontheholocaustitissimplytogaininformationandhasnothingtodowithanythingelseatall.Linkingthebuyingofacommercialproductwithanendactivityisanonstarter.Freedomofthepressisoneofthemostimportantthingsinfreecivilization.Ingeneralthemorebooksyouhaveonanysubjectthebetter.4.Topocopying:Letsfaceit,ifa 'footballer' wenttoCeuse,theycouldsimplycountthenumberoffallsclimberstookontheroutesandmakeaveryaccurateguidebookbysimplededuction.Theconceptofmakingaguidebookisridiculouslyeasywithmoderndigitalcamerasetc.Ihavemadeover10guidebooksthatIthinkareprettyuseful.Ivisitanareaandmakemyownjudgements,andjustaboutallotherguidebookwritersdoalso.
JoakimThommesen
2009020611:03:25
IhavetoagreewithAlanJames.Thelocalguidebooksarewaytodifficulttogetholdof,andtoooftentheyareoflowqualitycomparedtoRockfax(MrTroussiersoldguidebookforChateauvertisanexeption,thoughthat'sabeautifulandinspiringguidebook).Also,agoodandeasilydistributedguidebooklikeRockfaxbringwaymorepeopletothecragsthantheundergroundlocalguidebooks.So,inotherwords,Rockfaxisbetteratgeneratingclimbersatthecrag,and,hence,cashtothelocalbusinesses.
JustlookatFontbeforeRockfaxtheguidebookswereuseless.AndafterRockfaxittooktheinitiativeofanotherforeignertogettothenextlevel:BartvanRajandhis7+8guidebook.ThefrenchguidebooksforFontarestillprettyuseless.So,thelocalsshouldgettheiracttogetherratherthancomplainingaboutgoodforeigninitiative.It'snotacoincidencethatthiscritisismcomesfromFrance...Ifitwasuptothem,allguidebookswouldbewritteninfrenchlanguageexclusively.ThankGodforgoodEnglishguidebooks.
RockonRockfax!
AlanJames 2009020611:32:02
IagreewithyougenerallyhereDavid,butIthinkyouremphasisontheaccesspointiswrong.
AccessisVERYimportant.Itneedstobeaddressedinanumberofwaysandgooduptodateguidebooksarecrucialinthisrespect.SoisuptodatelocalTouristInformationandsoaresignsatthecrag.Climberswillnotbotheralwaysgoingtothetouristofficeitwouldbeacompletepainifyouhadtodothisforeverycrag.Havinggoodinternationalguidebooksthatindicateaccurateinformation,aswellashighlightingcragswheretheremaybeproblemsisessential.
Alan
Jens
2009020611:55:49
IpartlydisagreewithMarcoandIfounditjustnaturalandgoodthatRockfaxandothersproducelocaltopos.SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced.
However,IunderstandtheconcernsTroussierputforward.Iguesstheeasiestwaytogetalocalcooperationandgoodpublisityfortheexternaltopoproducer,wouldbetocreateawebpagewhereTroussiercouldinformaboutthelatestaccessissues.Furthermore,alltopoproducershouldalwayscomittogive"Onebolt"tothelocalcommunityforreplacingbadonesetc.
Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters.
DavidAtchisonJones
2009020612:12:54
IrefermyhonourablefriendtotheanswerIgavepreviously.Tosolveaccessissuesitmustbe'RealTime.'TakeanarealikethePfalzwheretherearehundredsofcliffs,andeveryoneofthemhastheirownbirdrestrictiontosuitthebirdsnestingintheareathatyear.Thethreecommonwaysofdealingwiththisare1touristinfocentres.2Informationsignsattheaccesspointstocliffs.3Infofromthenationalclimbingfederationofthatcountryontheirrealtimewebsites.
InmyJingoWobblyEuropeguidbook,ofcourseIgiveasmuchinfotohelpclimbersbeawareofaccessforbirdsetc,butIwouldnotwantanyonetoeverrelyoninformationthatisolderthanaweekforimportantaccessissues.Guidebooksaresimplynottherightmediumforthisinformation.
AlanJames 2009020612:14:52
"Thenewswaspublishedmainlyinorderincreasetheunderstandingbytheclimbingcommunityonaccessmatters."
Wellcontactmefirstthensothatyoucangiveabalancednewsitem.Itisonlybalancednewsthatwillactuallyincreaseunderstanding,andotherformofreportingwilldistortopinionsandperception.
Alan
Jens
2009020612:51:22
@Alan:MarcoTroussierforwardedthemailcorrespondanceyouhavehadwithhim.
Thisisandebatearticleandnormallywhentheyarepublishedinnewspapers,anybodycanrespond.
ItistheviewofMarcothatiswritten.Youmaydisagree.
Ifyouwanttopublishsomethingonthefirstpage,youaremostwelcometodoso.
AlanJames 2009020613:50:15
Couldyoupublishmyfirstpostabovethenplease?
Alan
MichaelRyan 2009020613:51:24
Jens,youareunprofessionalintheextreme.
Ifyouquotesomeone,putwhattheysaidinquotationmarks.Checkyourfacts.Emailpeoplementionedintheitemfortheirsideofthestory.
Thisishowyoushouldhavedoneit.READANDLEARN.
GivingBackToThoseWhoEquipSportRoutes
Climberswhoestablishnewsportroutesattheirlocalclimbingareasspendagreatdealoftime,effortandmoneycreatingroutesthatwecanallenjoy.Asindividualsweallbenefitfromtheireffortswhenweclimbtheseroutes,especiallysoatpopularclimbingdestinationareaswherethesunshinesandtherockandroutequalityishigh.Withouttheeffortsofnewrouterswewouldhavenothingtoclimb.
Howcanwegiveback?
Firsttreatallclimbingareaswithrespect:don'tlitter,toiletbeforeyougoclimbing,keepthenoisedown,parkappropriately.
Checkifthereareanyaccessissuesatyourcragchoicebyvisitingthelocaltouristinformationofficeandaskinglocalclimbers.
Secondly,searchoutlocalboltfundsandcontribute.Ifthereisalocalguidebook,buyit.
Thirdly,youhelpthelocaleconomybystayingatlocalcampsites,refugios,hotelsandpatronisinglocalsupermarkets,barsandrestaurants.
Makesureyoutellpeoplethatyouareaclimberandwhereyouarefrom.Thiswillspreadthewordthatclimbingisimportanttothelocaleconomy.
Notonlydoindividualsbenefitfromtheeffortsoflocalrouteequippersbutalsomanycommercialclimbingcompaniesandindividuals:climbinggearcompanies,guides,guidebookpublishers,photographers,theclimbingmediaincludingbothmagazinesandwebsites.
Shouldtheseentitiesmakecontributionstolocalboltandaccessorganisations?Somedoalready.Butshoulditbecomemoreformalised?
Oneperennialhottopicisoutofareapublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareasandtheeffecttheyhaveonlocalclimbingareas.
8a.nurecentlyreceivedanemailfromMarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFMEwhoisconcernedaboutoutofareaguidebookpublishersinFrance.
Hesaid,"quoteshere,quotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"
8a.nucontactedAlanJamesofRockfax,aUKbasedclimbingguidebookpublisherwhohaveproducedguidebookstoSpanish,Norwegian,andUSAclimbingareas,andhaveseveralguidebookstoFranceinpreparation.
8a.nuaskedAlanJameshisviewpointonoutofareapublishersproducingguidebooks.
AlanJamessaid,"quotesherequotesherequotesherequoteshere"
Whatisyourpointofview.Pleasecontributethetheforumthreadassociatedwiththisnews/opinionitem.
ENDS
gianluca
2009020614:08:38
OnethingIdon'tunderstand:whypeoplesaythatlocaltoposaredifficulttofind.
InallplacesIvisited,thelocaltopowaseasilyavailableonthespot.ifoutofprinting,there'salwaysacopyattheclimber'sbar/meetingpoint(oftenagoodwaytogetintouchwiththelocalcommunityandtogetinformedonaccessissues).
Then,insomecasesthelocaltoposareawful(bleau,orfontasyoulike,isanexcellentexample.Thedutch7+8isunbeatableforaccuracy,synthesisandstylishlayout...it'sworththemoneyevenforthosewhoclimblowerthan7a,justfortheaccessmaps).Insomecasesthoughthelocaltoposhavesomethingspecialand"mithique"tothem(theswisstoposoncresciano/chironico/gotthardbouldering,theswissticinosportclimbingguide,cusetopoexpeciallytheonewithadrawinginthefirstpage,oldeditionandsoon...)
Iwanttonoticeonethingthough.thebest"outsider"toposareuniqueworksmadebypeoplewhobasicallyhavechosenanareaastheirsecondhome.Iwouldbeverysurprised,forinstance,iftheauthorsof7+8wereabletomakeanequallycomprehensiveandaccuratetopoonTicinobouldering....
Idon'thavedirectexperiencewithjinglowobblyandrockfax,butI'veseenloadsof"awful"commercialtopobooks...accessdescriptionswhere"fewmeters"become"fewminutes",mixedupdrawings,andmanyodditiesofthatkind...
...ifthetopoismadebypeoplewhoreallyknowtheareatheyaredescribinginsteadofputtingtogetherspaperstheygotfromfriendsoffriends,orcopyingsomeoneelse'swork,thoseerrorsaremuchlessfrequent...
AlanJames 2009020614:30:46
HiGianluca
AsanexampleofguidebookavailabilityinFrance:InBuisleBaronnieslastSummer,Iwantedguidebooksforsomeofthelocalcrags.IwenttotheTouristInformationCentreandtheyhad2localtopos,bothquiteold,foraround20EurostotalIboughtthem.Ithendiscoveredthatthesecoveredtwoofthecragsandthereareabout20cragsaroundBuisthevastmajorityofthesecragsarenotinanyguidebook.OtherguidebookswereoutofprintthelocalguidesofficewasnotopenwhenIneededitandtheinformationinthereisnotinaformatthatyoucancarrytothecrag.
Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem.
Youareabsolutelycorrectthatthebestguidebookaretheoneswrittenbyauthorswithgreatlocalknowledge.WetrytodothisatRockfaxexamplehereofabookwrittenbyagreatguidebookwriterandaknowledgeablelocal(byfarthebestcombination)http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=133
Alan
Jens
2009020614:53:30
@Alan:YourfirstposteaboveispostedasIsuggested.
FormeitisinterestingthatonceIapproachedtocommentthearticlewhereyoupublishedmypicturesayingthatIwas"messingwithyourEgrade",IgottheresponsethatIcouldpostitintheopenforum.
When8apostedyourcommentatthefirstpage,youanswermetopostmineinyourforum.
MichaelRyan 2009020615:16:06
Jens,
YouaremorethanwelcometosubmitanarticleatUKClimbing.comandweshallfeatureit.Makesureitiswellwritten,wellresearchedandillustrated.
TOPIC8a.nuwhatisitandwhereisitgoing?byJensLarssen.
Thereyougo,anopeninvite.
YouwereandBjornwerealsoofferedaCommercialProfileatUKClimbing.com(usualcost200each)afterwerananewsitemaboutyourselfandSonnieTrotter'messingwithourEgrade".
YoudearJenscamelatetothedebate.Soceaseyourchildishegogames.
YouhavenotyetsaidanythingnewabouttheEgradediscussionthathasnotbeensaidanddiscussedalready,atgreatlength,intheUKclimbingmedia.
Startbyreadingthis:
TheHeadpointingDebatebyAdamWainright
http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=1&topic=15&item=171
Allthebest,
MickUKClimbing.com
Philipp
2009020615:20:12
IhavetoagreewithAlaninthatpointthatiprefergettingtheinformationaboutthearea/cragsinadvance.Iwouldappreciateitverymuchtogivethelocalstheproperrespectforlettingusvisitorhaveagoodtimeongoodroutesbutthatssometimesquitehard.Whenisearchedtheinternetforguidebooksiwasneverabletofindanythingpublishedbyalocalandonlyavaibleondemandorso.Itsalwaystheshopsandpublisherslikerockfaxthatprovidedecentbooksinadvance.Andidontwanttotaketheriskmakinga2weekvacationandnotgettingaguideforthearea.Ialwayswenttolesspopularplacesbutisitreallythateasytogetalltheinfoyouneedinclimbinghotspots?Butlikeisaidifthelocalsoranyonewhoisobviouslyresponsibleforputtinguproutesormaintainigcragsfindsawaytomaketheirworkmorepubliclikebooksorwebsitesorwhateveriwouldbethefirsttodonate,helporbuythebooks.Maybeididntsearchedthoroughly:)InmyopinionRockfaxisdoingagoodjobandwhatAlanwroteaboveseemsreasonabletome
Jens
2009020615:33:28
@Michael:ThreemonthsagoIaskedwhetheritwaspossibletopublishananswertotheEgradecritiscismIhadreceivedonyourfirstpage.Ialsoaskedyoutoremovethepictureofmetotheheadline,"messingwiththeEgrade".
YourefusedtodeletemypictureandyousaidIshouldanswerintheforum!Thesearetheplainfacts!
8ainvitedAlanJamestohavehisviewonthefirstpage.Thesearetheplainfacts!
Although,younow,threemonthslaterinvitemetopublish8athoughts,itstilllooksreallybadtoUKclimbing,howyouhandledtheissueofJensLarssenin2008.
ThenewandthingIhavesaidregardingtheEgradewaspublishedsomedaysagoonthefirstpage.MysolutionisthatyoushouldkeeptheEgradesforallgradesthatareonsightedandthenonhardergrades,asupplemantoryredpointgradeshouldbegiven,i.e.5.13bR/Xliketherestoftheworldisgradingtradredpoint.
MichaelRyan 2009020615:44:04
IgiveupJens.
Iseenohopeforyou.
Odub
2009020615:50:08
Thisisallsilly.ThereisNOprintguidebookthatcanbeconstantlyuptodate.Mostareoutofdateafewweeksafterthey'republished.Thatdoesn'tmeanI'mgoingtobuyaguidebookeveryfewweeks.
Everyotherindustryisgoingthroughthesamesituationbecausetheinternethasallowedsuchawealthofinformationtobeavailable.Itstimeforclimberstosuckitupanddealwithit.Ifanything,8aisasmuchapartoftheproblemasRockfax.
TheonlysolutionIcanseeisforeveryareatohaveanonlineguidethatisconstantlyupdatedbythedevelopers,similiartotheoneonwww.redriverclimbing.com.
Otherwise,nobodyintheargumenthasasinglevalidpoint.
jghedge 2009020618:35:01
RockFaxwrites:
"Thereisnowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksalestoactuallyfundtheboltingandusuallythispolicyjustresultsinbadguidebooksthatarenotwhattheclimberswant.MarcoTroussierdoesn'trecognisethisasanissueinhispublicemailpostedbyJens."
Ifthere'snomoneyinit,thenwhyisRockFaxdoingit?
Bythislogic,sincethereis"nowherenearenoughmoneyinguidebooksales",itwouldbeOKformetomakeanddistributecopiesoftheRocKFaxguideandsellitformyownprofitafterall,there'snomoneyinit,right?
Thelocalscansimplychargemorefortheirguides,peoplecan(anddo)paymoreforaguidewhentheyknowit'spartoffundingthedevelopmentofthecrag.PublishingguidestoanareawithoutpermissionofthedevelopersisPIRACYplainandsimple.Thereisnomoral/ethicalargumentthattrumpsthehardworkandexpenseputintoboltingacrag.
Davo
2009020618:55:32
TokeepaguidebookupdatedIlikewhattheydidwiththeCUENCAguidebook.Theyhaveawebpageupdatingeverynewroute,updatinggradesandtalkingaboutproblemsorrestrictions.Thatsthewaytogoithink,printabookandpublishupdatesintheweb...
AlanJames 2009020619:07:34
Inreplytojghedge:
Ididn'tsaytherewasnomoneyinguidebooks.
I'llputitanotherway:
...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance.
Thepointisirrelevantanyway,asisprettymuchacknowledgedbythefactthatMarcoignoresit.
Alan
MarcoTroussier
2009020619:10:10
It'seasytofindsometopos:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmProblemaccess.I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess....Thecostofatopowillneverbetehcostofalltheworkthathavebeendonetoboltandpreserveclimbinginsomecliffs.
POD
2009020619:30:47
AlamJameswrote:"Howeverthatdoesn'treallygettotheheartoftheproblem.Eveniftherehadbeengoodlocalguidebooksinthetouristoffice,IwantmybooksbeforeIsetoff,sothatIcanplanmytrip.IwanttobeinspiredbylocalguidesbeforeIchooseadestination.IthinkmanytravellingclimbersmissoutonsomegreatcragsinFrancesimplybecausetheydon'tknowaboutthem."
Iagree,gettingholdofaguidebookbeforethetripisessentialtomakethemostofonesholiday.IfyoucarestronglyenoughaboutthedifficultyofgettingholdofFrenchguidesintheUKthenperhapsyoucouldfollowmyexamplewiththe'SupercrackEditions'guidestovariousareasofCatalunya(Spain).IsimplyputtheauthorsoftheguidesintouchwithaUKbookdistributor(Cordee),andactedas(unpaid)gobetween.Notonlyhavebothpartiesbeenhappywiththeresult,butUKclimberscanperuseorbuybooksaheadofatripfrommanyoftheleadingBritishoutlets.PeteO'Donovan.
StefanoVarnerin
2009020620:15:39
Alan,maybethesectorsthattheguidedon'tcopyaresecretbecouseofaccessproblemoronlybecousethelocalclimbersdon'twontcrowdofclimbersinit.Andidon'tthinkthatthemoneybroughtbytheguideiss#it!ThinkaboutaplacelikeRodellar.......howmanyboltstheyhadputthankstotheguide?Moneyornotwithoutpermissionoftheareadevelopersucan'tdoaguide.Andifudo,4meislikestealingonother'sjob
MarcoTroussier
2009020620:47:43
Stopthinking,"climbing"isjustamerchandise,behonnest,orjustassumeyourposition"makingmoney",makeprofitandgiveas..fortherest....IneverhadtroubletofindatopoinsideandoutsideFrance.(Arapiles,Greece,Austria,Germany,Italy,thalande,Spainetc....since35yearsi'mclimbing)Ithinkhonnestlyihavetobuythetopointhecountryandfromlocaleditor.20isnothingcomparetothecostofatrip,andi'mhappytogivemoneybackforthosewhoboltedtheroutes,because,iboltedmyself,morethan500routesinFrance,italy,Australia,USA,Tawan,Crimea.AndhereisTHEdifferencebetweenus.Doingsomethingforfree.
jghedge 2009020620:48:38
"...thereisnotenoughmoneyinwritingasingleguidebook,toasinglecrag,tofundtheboltingatthatcrag.Thisalsoappliestoasmallgroupofcrags,asisoftenthecaseinFrance."
Please...a$30guidebooktosomeplacelikeStLegercouldeasilysellafewthousandcopies...othersdoalltheworkandyouprofit,justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism...
9b
2009020621:02:58
Paperisgood,butitcostsandYoucanalwaysprintadigitaltopoYoudownloadedafterhavingpayeditwithyourprepaidcard.Inthatcase,Youpaydirectlylocalauthors/equippers,givingthem100insteadofusual10%ofincomesandnotsomanyproblemstoupdateit.Withmobileweb,privateonlinetoposYoucanenter,readandprint,afterpayment,canhavevideosandinteractionstoo.
MichaelRyan 2009020621:35:47
There'sahelluvaalotofslanderandlibelonhere.
Larsseninitiatedthehatewith,"Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproductionand"Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems."onhishomepageblog.
Joeyoushouldknowbetterwithyour"justcallitwhatitis,piracyandplagiarism..."
InmyheartofheartsItoobelievethatthereshouldbe"localguidesforallvisitors"butuntilpeopleliketheFFMEandFrenchguidebookpublishersgettheirshittogetherandproducethebestguidebooksnotjustforlocalsbutforvisitorsyouwillalwaysgetoutoftownerspublishingguidebooks.......
HerethatMarcoTroussier.Quityou'rewhining!
.......theGermanshavebeenprosatitfordecades,andgoodonthem.RememberSunRockbyNicoMailander?.....andPeteLivesey'sFrenchguidebook!
VersanteSudalsodoingasterlingjob,asdoRockfax.EvenFalconintheUSAhaveaguidebooktoEurope.
Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy.
OKanyonewanttoanswertheslanderandactuallygiveanexampleofaccessproblemcausedbyanoutoftownguidebook!
Anyone?JensyoustatedthatRockfaxhavestolenmoneyandcausedaccessproblems.Eitherputuporshutup!Somechanceeh!
GawdIhateblindlocalism.
Thisargumenthasbeengoingonandonfor20/30yearswithnoresolution.Youcan'tlegislate.
There'soneanswer.Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks.
Everythingelseisjustinternethotair.
Mustdash.rantover
Toodles,
Mick
AlanJames 2009020621:54:14
Marcosaid,"I'veneverseenmisterJingloandmisteJamesonameetinginFrancetopreserveaccesswiththeownerofacliff.theywilltaketherecashand"basta"!Heyoucanalsocopy"friends"andstufflikethat.......FFMEdidworkwithlawyertopreserveaccessoncertaincliffs,whataboutBMC,AVetc....Itcostalottomakeprocess"
ButMarco,therearealotofpeoplewhobenefitfromboltsbeingincliffsandnotmanyofthemareattheaccessmeetingslocalbusinessesandoutdoorgearmanufacturersforexample.IattendmeetingsinthePeakDistrictandtrytodomybithere,maybepeoplewhomakeharnessesandropesinsomeotherpartofEuropeattendtheirlocalaccessmeetingsaswell.Weareallverygratefulfortheworkyoudoinyourarea,andmaybeyouaregratefulfortheworkdonebyouraccessteamshereEngland.That'sgoodworkandeveryonewhohasajobintheoutdoorsshoulddotheirbit,Iagree,butyoucan'texpectaropemanufacturertoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirropeisusedat,andyoucan'texpectaguidebookpublishingcompanywith30publicationstoattendaccessmeetingsforeverycragtheirguidebookscover.However,wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach.
Alan
jghedge 2009020622:01:07
"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."
Sayswho?Theguyswhoarepiratingtheguides?
Eitherdosomeoftheworkindevelopingthecrag,orcontributeapercentageofthesalesoftheguidetothepeoplewhodo.Betteryet,onlybuylocalguides,ordowithout.
Montsanthadnoguideforyears,stilldoesn'tasfarasIknow,theroutesdon'tevenhavenames,justnumbers...that'sobviouslyhowthelocalswantitandit'sfinewithme.
Jens
2009020622:06:41
@Michael:Ascanberead,thisisandebatearticleweretheopinionsofMarcoisexpressedandhereadthearticlebeforeitwaspublished.
"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8a..."
Asyoucanseefromthediscussions,itisinterestingforthecommunitytodiscuss.Furthermore,myopinionisinbetweenAlanandMarcoasIhaveexpressedearlier.
MichaelRyan 2009020622:12:00
Idon'tpublishguidessowhenIsay
"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."
Thatismyanswertotheperceivedproblem.
Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat.
UntilthathappensforgetitseeKalymnosasagoodexample.You'dbenutstopublishaguidebooktothatareaastheguideissowelldone.
It'sdeadsimple.Buthardwork.
MichaelRyan 2009020622:15:57
SeemyexamplepostaboveJens.
YouneedsomeonewhocaneditwellandinEnglishbecauseasitstandswhosaidwhatinthat'news'itemisnotclearatall,andmuchofitappearsasstatementoffact.
Firstyouneedanauthorcredit,abyline.Secondyouneedtoclearlymarkquotes.
It'svergingonslanderasitisnow.
jghedge 2009020704:18:12
"Outcompetethecompetition,produceagoodquality,multilingualguidebookandmakesureitisdistributedwell.YouareaYank,youunderstandthat."
Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition.Thelocaldevelopersdecidewhattheguideshouldbe,orifthereshouldevenbeone,notyou.It'stheirwork,notyours.
MichaelRyan 2009020708:39:13
AfraidnotJoetheissueistheavailabilityofgoodareaguidebookstopopulardestinationareasandwhopublishesthem.
jghedge 2009020710:05:28
"Selectguidebookstohotareasarehardtofind,butwhentheyareavailableanddonewell,andtheareasisgood,theclimberstheyattractspend1,000'sthatsupportthelocaleconomy."
Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.Anditistheheightofarrogancetopresumetodecidethatanareayouhadnothingtodowithdevelopingsuddenly"needs"aRockFaxguide.
"...wearekeentosupportyoureffortsinanywaywecanbydoingwhatwecandonamelypublishingthebestandmostaccurateinformationtoasmanyclimbersaswecanreach."
WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!
AlanJames 2009020710:52:38
"WhichislikemesayingtoRockFax,"IamkeentosupportyoureffortsinanywayIcan"bymakingmyowncopiesoftheRockFaxguideandsellingitformyownprofit.AfterallAlanandMick,thinkofthebenefittovisitingclimbersandthelocaleconomy!"
Thatwouldbeillegal.
Youareperfectlyatlibertytomakeyourownguidethough,andsinceyouseemtothinkthatthereisnoeffortrequiredtoproduceaguidefromtheguidebookwriters/publishersthenIwonderwhyyoudon't?
Alan
POD
2009020710:58:47
MickRyanwrote:"Localshavetostepuptotheplateandproducedmultilingualareaguidebooksthataretopquality.Untilthatisdone,andtheyaredistributedwell(PODisdoingsterlingworkthere)outsiderswillcontinuetoproduceguidebooks."
Herewehavethecruxoftheproblem:Rockfaxandtheirilkhavecreatedanenvironmentwheremanyclimbersseeitastheir'right'tohaveuptodateinformationintheirownlanguage.Bythisreckoning,when'local'climbersinFranceandSpaincleanandequipareas,oftenatgreatpersonaleffortandexpense,theymustthensitdownandproduceaprofessionalqualityguidebookin(atleast)fourlanguages.Leavingtopobooksinbarsorprovidinglowtech,lowcostlocalguides,itseems,isnolongersufficient.AndGodhelpthemshouldtheydecidetokeeptheirnewcragsemisecretforawhile.Indeed,suchactionsareoftendeemedasjustificationforthe'professionals'tostepin.
JustasthereareBritslivingonthecontinentwhohavenointentionofeverlearningthelanguageorimmersingthemselvesinlocalculture,sotherearevisitingBritishclimbersforwhomanythinglessthanafullEnglishlanguageguidebooktellingthemexactlywhenandwheretogoandwhichroutestoclimb,simplywon'tdo.Suchclimbersmayhaveonlyoneortwoweeksayeartogoawayandwanttomakethemostofit.FairenoughthisisRockfax'breadandbuttermarket.Inthebesttraditionsofbusiness,theyhaveidentifiedanicheandtakenfulladvantageofit.
Sotheissueisnotwhysuchguidebooksareproducedbuthow.It'samatterofethics,andherethingscanandmustchange.InCatalunya,forinstance,the'SupercrackEditions'guysenterintoagreementswithlocalactivistswhereby,inreturnforinformation,asetpercentage(usuallybetween10and20%)oftheguidebookrunispassedonimmediatelyfollowingpublication,andsoldinlocalshopsandbars.Thiskeepsbothsideshappytheguidebooksbenefitfromintimatelocalknowledgeandtheclimbersgetfundingforfurtherdevelopment.10%onaprintrunof3,000canadduptoalotofbolts!
Rockfaxneedstostronglyconsidersuchmethods.Sure,therewillbelogisticalproblems,butiftheyapplythesameingenuityandprofessionalismtotheseastotheguidesthemselves,thenI'msureitcanbedone.Andifthismeansthatprofitsgodown,eitherchargeyourcustomersmore(explainingwhy)ortakeapaycut!
Whatforeignguidebookwritersandtheircustomersneedtofullyunderstandisthat,toanyoneinvolvedinlocalcliffdevelopmentcleaning,boltingetc.orguideproduction(andit'softenthesamefolks),foran'outside'interesttosimplycomein,andtakeanduseinformationforpersonalprofit,withouttheleastconsultationorrespectforlocalfeelings,isanactionwhichcausestheutmostoffenseandlonglastingbadfeeling.
PeteO'Donovan.
StefanoVarnerin
2009020711:05:07
Okiunderstand,goodhasgiveanimportantmissiontojamesandryan........maketheirownguidofevryplacetheythinkhasn'tagoodoneforthegodofhumanity.Thestupidandevillocaldevelopershasnorighttocomplainifsomeoneelselikerockfaxusetheirhardworkforprofit......ehhmfortherightofthewholeclimbingcommunity.
Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!
MichaelRyan 2009020711:30:21
Joesaid:Uh...no.Thecragsandtheworkdonebythedevelopersattractclimbers,nottheguide.
Stefanosaid:Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff.
Anareaspopularityisduetomanyfactors.
Thelongtermpopularityofanareaisdeterminedbythequalityoftherockandtheroutes.
Itisfurthermarketedbywebsiteslike8a.nuandtheclimbingmediaasawhole,includingtopclimbersblogs,climbingphotographers,climbingcompanies,videosonVimeo
HeyJoetakethatLynnHillvideodownitsanadvertfortheRedRiverGorge.
8a.nuisbasicallyabigticklistofroutesandcragsfromaroundtheworld,abigadvertforclimbingsdestinationareas.
JensIhopeyouchecktheaccesssituationateachcraginyourdatabase,alsocheckthequalityoftheboltprotectionofeachroutethatyouarepromoting.
Alsohowmuchdoes8a.nucontributetolocalaccessfunds.
Pointispopularityofanareaanditsroutesareduetomanyfactors,notjustguidebooks.8a.nu,photographers,videos,blogsquicklypromoteareasandmakethempopular.
IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.
POD
2009020711:54:31
MickRyanwrote:'IagreePete,'consultationandrespectforlocalfeelings'isveryimportantwhenanoutsidepublisherpublishesaguidebooktoanarea.Ihopetheyalldothat.'
Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork.
PeteO'Donovan.
DavidFalt
2009020712:10:46
FirstChapeautoMarcoforallhisworkthatweallbenefitfromwhenvisitingcliffsinFrance.AndifanyofyouwhothinkMarcois"whining"IsuggestyoujoinFFMEandMarcosunselfishworkforthecommunity.AlsoafterhavingseenfirsthandallthehardworkFFMEisdoingIthinktheydeserveallthecredittheycanget.Iwilltrytojointhemthisyearasmyfrenchnowisok.
I'matruelibertarianandacapitalistwhoinanynormalcasewouldarguethatfreeandunrestrictedcompetitionisthebestforthemarketandtheendconsumerbutwhenitcomestotoposIstronglyagreewithMarco.BYlocal.Supportthelocalworkforaccess.
Itsbullshitthatitshardtofindtoposjustputabitofeffortinandyouwillallfindthem.AlsoIhavetosaythatMarcoisprovidingaservicewaybeyondallexpectations.WhenIwasnewtoChateauVertIgotsomeveryhelpfuladvisefromMarcoandIwasbugginghimquiteallotaboutgradesandnamesofnewroutesetcandhewasalwaysfasttorespondandhelp.NowItsmyfavoritespotandIhavejustboughtmysecondtopoasthefirstonefellapartaftersomehardconsuming.
WhenitcomestotheslanderaccusationsagainstJensIthinkwealljusthavetoacceptthathehashiswaywithwordsandsometimesitallgoeshorriblywrong.HavingSUBSTANTIALexperiencefromlitigationandlegalprocessesIhavelearnedonethinganditseitheryousueoryoushutup.AtaninternetforumorinemailsIthinkwehavetoacceptthatthingsslipoutintheheatofthemomentandthatsjustaculturalthingwithemailsandinternet.SopleasestoptheslanderBSandstayontopic.
MichaelRyan 2009020712:12:56
IagreePete.Wholeheartedly.
Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.
Collaborationistheonlyway.
WhatIobjecttooisinflammatoryandslanderoussocallednewsitemsonwebsiteslikethis(whoalsoprofitfromtheworkofnewrouters)whichsetthetoneforadiversivediscussionandpitoneclimberagainstanother.
Amudslingingdiscussionistheresultanddoesnothingtoencouragecollaboration.
ThefellscallhereintheLakes.I'mofftoahighandsnowyridge.
Mick
jghedge 2009020718:54:20
"Theseguidebooksbyforeignpublishersshouldbedonewithconsultationwithlocalclimbersandaccessorganisations.
Collaborationistheonlyway."
Again,arrogance.Ifsomeoneispiratingandplagiarizingyourworkyouareundernoobligationto"collaborate"withthem.Ifthedevelopersdon'twantforeignguidesthenethically(andprobablylegallyaswell)thereshouldn'tbeany.
MichaelRyan 2009020720:00:04
Youweren'tlisteningJoe.
It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.
Nooneisplagiarizingorcopying,althoughroutelistsareused,Justastheyareon8a.nu,ontheMountainProject,UKCandothersites.
TakealookatCoronn.comandDR.Topotoo.....youtooJens.
Thisword'developers'isabitsinister.Arepeoplelikemyselfwhoestablishnewroutesandproblemscalled'developers'.
Arecragsconstructionsitesthesedays?
Iofferasolution,youofferslanderandinsults.
It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet.
BythewayIdon'tbelieveawordthatRussWallingsaidaboutyouo)
Allthebest,
Mick
jghedge 2009020720:19:17
"Youweren'tlisteningJoe.
It'sOK,it'scommonontheinternet."
Indeedparticularlywhenvestedinterestsareinvolved.
AlanJames 2009020809:57:39
"Fantastic!AllweneednowisforRockfaxtofullyembracethatsentiment.TheLofotenguidewasapparentlyproducedinsuchawayandtheresultisabrilliantpublication.WiththeproposedFrenchguidebookstheyhaveanexcellentopportunitytocontinuethegoodwork."
ItisatwowaythingPOD.ThereasonLofotenworkedsowellwasbecauseThorbjornrecognisedthathehasagreatareaandhassomegreatclimbs,andthatwemakegreatguidebooks.WiththeseguidebookstoFrancewearecoveringahugeareaverylightlyratherthanasmallareaindepth.Wehavemadesomegoodcontactsbutalsoencounteredsomestonewallsliketheonesshownonthisthread.Sodon'texpectthatsamelevelofproductionasLofoten,butthenagain,thebookdoesn'tneedit.
Asregardsyourpointsaboutguidebookpublishersenteringintofinancialagreementswithlocalbolters:Doyouthinkthisshouldberestrictedexclusivelytoguidebookproducers,ordootherpeoplewhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltedroutesalsoneedtocontribute?Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?
AlanJames 2009020809:59:46
Stefanosaid,"Thankstorockfax,thegermansandthecrowdofrudeclimbersthatevryhollydaycamelikelocustinourscliff(therockisofevrybody,buttheworkincleaningandboltingnot)takemoreandmorelocaldeveloperstokeepsecretthenewareas.Alsoineverhadtheproblemtofindtheguideofacrag......alsowithoutiticlimbedwellbecouseualwaysfindnicepeopleincragthatexplainuthewholesectorsandgivenicetips!"
That'ssomenastyxenophobiathereStefano.IamgladtheclimbersintheareasIvisitdon'thavethatattitude.
Alan
AlanJames 2009020810:20:41
Joesaid:"Theissueispiracyandplagiarism,notcompetition."
YouareveryfreewiththewordplagiarismJoe.
Thisisplagiarismhttp://www.rockfax.com/images/i.php?id=27
Alan
StefanoVarnerin
2009020811:09:44
Ifxenophobiameanbehangrywhenuseeamazingplacesbeenruinbycrowdofidiot(withbeautifullguide!)thathavenorespect4nature,yesi'mxenofobic!Irememberthewaymisjapeclookslikeafterhollydayperiods........itseemsadump!AndolsoirememberwhathappentothebeautifullcragofPodpec,close4therudnessofsomeidiotsthatparkcarsinprivateproprietateanddon'trespecttheinhabitantsofthesmallvillage.Weallseehowbetterisforthepreservationofthecragifwedon'tdoaguideoftheplace,butonlysaytofriendswhereitis.SpotlikeBaratro,wichishardtocallsecretafter10years,hassurvivedthankstothisstrategy,andalsowithoutaguidehundredspeopleshaveclimbinthiscave.Alotofamazingcliffcan'thaveaguide,becouseofovercrowningproblemthatcancausetheendofit.Peoplefromabroaddon'tnowalltheproblemsofanarea,butthelocaldo!Sotheonlyway4aforeigntomakeaguideistoworkveryveryclosewiththelocaldevelopers.Andiftheyareagainstaguide,uhavenorighttopubblishone.
BruceMarsh
2009020811:21:07
Ihaven'thadtimetoreadalloftheabovesomaybeI'mrepeatingsomethinghere.
DuringmytimelivinginFranceI'veencounteredsomeincrediblybadguidebooksandRockfaxcomingovertoraisethebarabitisgreatnews.
EachtimeIgosportclimbingIamveryawareofandgreatlyappreciatetheexcellentworkthatthelocalactivistsandrouteequippershaveputin.Iwouldhatetothinkthattheywouldloseoutonafinancialcontributiontotheirexpensesifpeoplestartedpurchasingrockfaxguidesratherthantheirown.Havingsaidthat,inmanyareaswheretheguidebooksareunbelievablybadlymade,IwouldmuchratherbuyaguideorRockfaxqualityandpaysomeextramoneydirectlytoaboltfundortothecragdevelopers.
IfRockfaxcouldestablishsuchasystem(maybetheyalreadyhavetosomeextent?)thentheywouldnodoubtgetmuchmorehelpfromthelocalsandremainunquestionablyonthemoralhighgroundsincetheywouldbepayingforaproportionoftheboltsontheroutestheyaredescribing.
Onemechanismforthiscouldbetoadd20%tothepriceoftheguidesandensurethatatleastthisproportionoftheirturnovergoestoacentralboltingexpensesfund(hostedbytheFFME,orrockfaxthemselves?).
Peoplewhohaveboltedroutesinacertainareacouldapplytothisfundforcompensationfortheboltingcostsandeffortiftheirrouteappearsinarockfaxguide.Theamountofcompensationreceivedwoulddependonthenumberofcopiesoftheguidebookthathavebeensold.
Iwouldbealothappierwithmyrockfaxguidebookpurchase(evenifitwas20%moreexpensive)ifIknewthatmymoneywasdirectlycontributingtotheboltingofthecragsthatisdescribes.
Inmanyareas,anaddedbenefitforthecragdeveloperswouldbethattheycanspendmoretimedoingwhattheyaregoodatclimbingandnewrouting,andlesstimeonstrugglingtowriteauseableguidebook.
Bruce
DavidAtchisonJones
2009020811:50:30
HiBruce,nicetoseeyourpostingitbringsupafewpointsthatasapublisherIcanshowhowthingsdon'twork.Whenyoupublishbooks,orevensellanygoodsinashop,itallworksonmarkupcommissionthatislifefullstop.Soifyouadd1eurotoabookatcost,thenyouaddaround6extraeurostoshipping,finance,shopcommission,distributorcommissionandofcoursethatlovelyTVAtax.Henceitisjustaboutthemostludricouswayoftryingtoraiseanysortofrevenuesinceitallgetscreamedoff.Ifyoucansimplyadd1euroatthesalespoint perfectofcourse.ThatisthereforeuptotheretailersIamsuretheFrenchgovernmentwouldstillrequireTVAthough.
DavidFalkmadeanicepointinthankingMarcoTforaccesswork,andIwouldjustliketoaddtothat.
Asapureclimber.MytypicalinstanceisclimbingintheVerdon.IrefusetobuyanotherguidebookIhave3ontheshelfalreadyandcertainlywon'tneedanotheroneinmylifetime.However,IalwayshaveacollectionforeachdaythatIclimbtherewithfriendsandwegenerallygive5euroseachtotheboltfundatthePVert.Itisamazinghowquicklyyougetupto100euros,andithelpsagainstthedecimationoftherainforestetc.IfIamhonesttoo,IsimplybinmosttoposthatIbuy,moneypaidtowhoeveranddone.Iwouldrathermoreplaceshaveaequipmentfundingpoint.Printingprettyawfultoposthatyousendstraightintotherecyclingbinisnotthatagoodideareally.
Ithinkthatalotofclimbersaremorethanhappytogivemoneytoaboltfundsowhybotherlinkingittoanythinganyway?
9b
2009020812:23:20
@David:toletclimbersmakeafreedonationtolocalbolters,publisherscanputasimpleDONATEbutton intheirwebsite.
POD
2009020818:57:39
AlanJameswrote:"Forexample,didyoudonatetoboltfundswhenyouweremakingyourlivingoutofsellinggeartoclimbers?"
IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!
Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!
Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers.
Moneyaside,therealissueisoneofethics.IfagroupoflocalclimbersFrench/Spanish/Italian,whatever,decidetocleanandequipasuperbnewarea,andhandoutinfoinwhichevermannertheychoosethenvisitingclimbersshouldbegratefulforthat,andstopcomplainingthattheguidebookis"hardtofind"or"notuptothestandardoftheRFguides".
Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?
PeteO'Donovan
jghedge 2009020819:17:49
OKMick,nowcondescendinglytellPetehe'snotlistening...betteryetjustignorewhathe'ssayingandpersonallyattackhim
MichaelRyan 2009020819:22:24
Peteisn'tslanderingormakingfalseclaimsaboutplagiarism.Consequentlyheislistenedtowithrespect.
Imaynotagreewithentirelybuthedoeshavesomegoodpoints.
DavidFalt
2009020819:46:35
@RyanandRockfax
Idon'tknowwhatRockfaxisandwouldnotbuyitasIpreferlocaltoposbutI'msurethereisamarketoutthereforyoutodevelopandyoushoulddothat.Butasallbusinessitneedsadaptationtothelocalmarketconditions.ResponsibilityisonekeywordandRespectanother.
YouaresokeenonthisslandertalkIalmostthinkyouareaambulancechasinglawyerbutIknowbettersoIwilldeferfromgoingdownthatroad.ButIgettrulypissedatyoulackofrespectfortheworkofFFME.Ifyoudon'tseethevalueofwhattheyaredoingandwhatotherlocalsaredoingforusTHECOMMUNITYIsuggestyoustayhomeintheUKandorgotoLofoten.
Itisyouasabusinessownerwhohastofigureoutaresponsiblewaytiintegrateyourbusinessintothelocalcommunity.
MichaelRyan 2009020820:29:10
IhavefullrespectfortheFFMEDavid,asIdofortheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.
TogiveyousomebackgroundofmyexperiencesoyoucanseewhereIamcomingfrom.....
IworkandhaveworkedcloselywiththetheBMCandtheUS,AccessFund.I'veworkedcloselyonaccesswiththeBureauofLandManagementandtheUSForestServiceinbothBishop,CaliforniaandLasVegas,Nevada.
I'veestablishedsportroutesintheUK,Spain(Siurana),andtheUSA:andestablished100'sofnewboulderproblems,and'developed'severalnewareasthatarenowverypopular.
IhavepublishedandauthoredguidebooksintheUKandintheUSA(Rumney,CathedralandWhitehorse,Rifle,LasVegasandBishop).
IhavewrittenseveralarticlesonAccess,andproducedpostersandorganisedaccessevents.
Ihavealsohavehadmyworkrippedoff:ToposwhichIworkedonforhundredsofhourshavebeencopiedanddistributed.RouteliststhatIoriginallyresearchedanddocumentedforthefirsttime,havebeenusedbyotherguidebookauthorsandpublishers.
WhatIdoobjecttoistheblunderbussapproachofMarcoTroussier,yetrecognisehishardworkforaccess.Distributingemailsliketheonepublishedby8a.nuthatinitiatedthisdiscussioniscounterproductivetoasatisfactoryresolution.
Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?
Thatiswhatthefocusshouldbeon.
Cheers,
Mick
AlanJames 2009020821:13:29
PODsaid"IfpurchasingmyownHilti(800Euros),bolts,hangersandloweroffsonaregularbasis,andpersonallyequipping(aftercleaning,pathclearing,etc.)newclimbscounts,thentheanswerisYES!Ifprovidingphotographsandtranslationsfreeofchargetolocalguidebooksinmyarea,ofwhichagoodproportionofsalesgoesdirectlytoboltfundingfornewprojectscounts,thenagain,theanswerisYES!"
Ah,butthatisPeteO'Donovandoinggoodwork.I'vedoneallthatboltinginthePeak,Accessmeetings,contributionstoboltfundsandaccessfundsthatishowitshouldbe.Butitiscompletelydifferentfromacompanydonation.Imaginetheconsequencesofa50plevybeingappliedtoeverychalkbagyoumade?
PODsaid"Asforbusinessesinvolvedinnonguidebookactivitiesbeingequallyresponsibleforboltfundcontributions,Ibegtodiffer.Rockfaxprofitdirectlyfromthisactivity.Notonlythat,butyourcurrentmethodsofinformationgatheringeffectivelyuselocalactivistsandrecordersasunconsulted,unpaidresearchers."
Alloutdoorbusinessesbenefithugelyfromthepresenceofaccessagreementsandbolts.Soyou'dsellasmanychalkbagsthenifallthecragswereclosedandtherewasnobolting?Youmake(made)yourlivingoutofclimberstothesameextentasme.
PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"
Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.
hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!
Alan
StefanoVarnerin
2009020822:18:53
MichaelRyansaid"Sowhatisthesolutiontoforeignguidebookpublishersproducingguidebookstodestinationareas?"RESPECTTHEWILLOFLOCALDEVELOPERS!!!ANDIFTHEYGIVEUTHEPERMISSIONOFPUBBLISHAGUIDEUMUSTGIVETHEMAPARTOFTHEPROFIT!IfindAlanwordsoffensive.Idon'tthinkuevennowwhatmeanrespect,soican'timmaginuaskingtolocalclimbersifucanusetheirwork.........andalsoboltsinthepeak..............bhaineverbeetobutthisisthefirsttimethatihearofboltsinthetradparadise
POD
2009020822:35:35
AlanJamessaid:"PODalsosaid"Itmakesmeutterlysicktoreadcommentslike"thelocalsneedtogettheirshittogetherandproduceproperguidebooks".Whythef...shouldthey?Isn'titenoughthatthey'vedonethePROPERhardworkinthefirstplace?"
Wellifitisn't"PROPERhardwork"thenanyidiotcandoit.
hmmm...talkingofrespect,and'offense"....!
Alan"
Inthis,andearlierposts,wehaveasummaryoftheRockfaxattitude.Whenpresentedwithideasaimedatachievingclosercollaborationwithlocalactivists,theydeflectallrelevantquestionsandinsteadresorttopersonalattacksonindividuals.
TheplainfactisthatRockfaxhasthesamemodusoperandiasanyotherpirateguidei.e.minimalinvolvementoflocals=maximumprofitsforRockfax.
PeteO'Donovan.
AlanJames 2009020822:41:47
RubbishPOD.TheonlyinsultsinherehaveallbeendirectedatRockfax.Iwouldlovetoworkwithlocals alwayshave,andalwayswill.
Youcompletelylostthisargumentwithyour'properwork'comment.Howshitwasthat!!!!
Alan
Jens
2009020823:14:05
@POD:Itotallyagreewithyou.ItmakesmesicktoreadalltheseattacksbytheRockfaxguysandInowcanundderstandhowfrustratedMarcoTroussierwereinthefirstplacewhenhetriedtocommunicateovertheissue.
Ithinkweshoulddrawaveryclearlinebetweenlocaltopoproducerswhopresenttheirworkmainlyinordertoinviteclimbers,
andtheoneswhomainlyareproducingtopos,inordertomakemoney.Clearly,itisthecapitalistswhoarecreatinglocalaccessproblems.
Idothinkweshouldoptforhavingtopoproducerswhoareinthemiddleofthesebothsides!
MichaelRyan 2009020823:42:59
ThetoneofthisdiscussionwassetbyyouJens...andyoucontinue.
Intheinitialreportonyournewspagetherewerethefollowingslanderousandinflammatorycomments.
"Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp"
Thishasbeenfollowedbyinsultsbyindividualposters.
Youinflamepeoplewithyourrhetoric,wildassumptionsandfalsehoods.
Ifyoustatetheissueclearlyandobjectively,apositivedialoguewillresult.
Inthiscaseithasn'tandinfactthisisthewrongplaceforaconstructivedialogue.
Firstoffalloutofcountryguidebookpublishers,whopublishforeigndestinationguidesshouldbecontacted.
ThenperhapstheFFMEandothernationalclimbingbodiescandrawupacodeofpractice,andthatcouldincludedonationstolocalaccessandreequippingorganisations,andconsultationswithindividualsandorganisationsonaccessconcernsandwhichcliffsshouldstayunpublished.
Atthesametime,asIhaverepeatedtimeandtimeagain,thebestwaytomakeitcommerciallyunviableforforeignpublisherstopublishisforlocalsinanareatopublishamultilingualselectareaguidebook.
Notonlythattheywouldbenefitfinanciallyfromthesaleofalocallyproducedareaguidebook.
Howsimpleisthat?
Mick
grigri
2009020905:20:34
Itshardtobelievethatthepeopleinthisthreadrepresentthecognoscentioftheeuropean(UKincluded)climbingpress.Yousoundlikeabunchofsquabblingpreschoolkids!
MonsieurTroussierhasaveryvalidpoint,thanksforpostingupthelinktoaccesstoposonepositivepostatleast.Theideaofhavingareawebsiteswherebirdnesting,parkingandotheraccessissues,aswellasnewrouteinfo,canbeupdatedisalsoaverygoodone.
Rockfaxguys:buckup!Ifyoudontcontributetothelocalfederations/developersyoubloodywelloughtto!!Stoptryingtodiverttheblameontoothertopoproducers(eg:MikaelCorronmakesapointofonlydoingtoposoftouristdestinations).
Workingtogetherinsteadofsquabblinglikeabunchofimmaturebratsistheonlywaytheseproblemscanbeaddressed.Climbinginothercountriesisnotarightitisapriviledge,respectforthelocalsisofparamountimportanceinourevershrinkingworld.
MarcoTroussier
2009020908:36:52
Youlookingatcliffincludingthosewithenveronementalproblemsclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_index.phpButyouwon'tfind"secretspots"whereproblemsarereallytough.Youwanttobuyatopoclickhere:http://www.ffme.fr/boutique/index.htmendofthepage.Youwon'tfind"secretspots",andsomeothertoposinprocesslikeTarn,Dourbieetc...cragsaroundverdon,cragsaroundSisteronarecurrentlyinprocess,don'tpublish,don'tcopy.....CLIMBGLOBAL,BUYLOCALTOPOS!
AlanJames 2009020910:39:26
IwillreiteratethatRockfaxrecognisesthecontributionthatboltingmakestoclimbingareasandthehardworkdonebylocaldevelopers.IntheUKwedonatesignificantamountsofmoney(probablymorethananyothercompany,certainlyrelativetoturnover)towardsboltingandaccess.WearemorethanhappytoconsiderdothisinFranceifsuchacentralfundcanbefound,howeverwewouldlikeittobepartofawiderinitiativethatbringsinallcompanieswhobenefitfromthepresenceofboltsandgoodaccesstocrags.Failingsuchaninitiativewewouldstillbehappytodiscussthepossibilitieswithlocaldevelopers.
WerecognisethevitallyimportantissueofaccessandwilldoourutmosttosupportandcommunicategoodaccessinformationtoclimbersfromalloverEurope.Bypublishingaguidebookthatintroducesmanycragstononlocalclimbersforthefirsttimewehopetohelpspreadtheloadofclimbersawayfromtheoverpopularcrags.Wewouldwelcomeapproachesfromanyclimbersconcernedaboutaccessinformationtotheircrags.
RockfaxisdedicatedtoproducingthebestqualityclimbinginformationtoareaalloverEuropeandwearecontinuallystrivingtoimproveourcoverageandmethodsofcoverage.Allourbooksareresearchedfromamultitudeofsources.Wealsoareverykeentoworkwithlocalactivistswhereappropriateandwillhappilyenterintoarrangementswithlocalclimberswhicharemutuallybeneficialforbothparties.
ThisismylastwordonthesubjectonthisthreadsinceIfeelIcannolongercontributeonaforumrunbysomeonewhohasapersonalvendettaagainstmyselfandmycompany.AnyonewhowishestocontinuethedebateiswelcometomoveitovertoUKClimbing.comwhereIpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC.
Thanksforallthepositivecontributions.
AlanJames,RockfaxandUKClimbing.com
grigri
2009020911:35:37
@AJImgladtohearRockfaxdoesindeedcontributetothecause.IhopethatfurtheriniativescanbeforgedtobridgetheageolddividebetweenFranceandBritain.
Thisisadifficulttopic,I,myselfamaguideauthoranddeveloper,andassuchwouldobviouslypreferpeopletolearnaboutourcragfromus.Butonlineguidescaninformandattractvisitorstoanareatheywouldnothaveheardofbeforewhichisgreatifthelocalsactuallywantvisitors.Distributionthroughthenetisstillfraughtwithissuesaspeoplecaneasilycopyguidesandgetawaywithouteverpayingforit badfortheauthors.Lockedpdfsolutionsareavailablebutonecanstillprintmultiplecopies.Sohowtogettheinfooutthere(ifyouwantitoutthere!)?Printedbooksremainthesafestwaytoprotectcopyright.Itsoundslikethereisagreatmarketfortranslatorstohelplocalauthorsproduceprintedguidesinmorelanguages.@M.Troussier:Perhapsthisisabusinessopportunity?
Jens
2009020911:44:56
Iassume,MarcoTroussierandtherestoftheclimbingcommunityincludingmyselfareveryhappywiththaanswerofhowRockfaxwillworkinthefuture.
Thismeansinfactthatitwasagoodideatopublishthenewsinthefirstplace.
However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad.Thelastsentencespeakforitself,"IpromiseIwillnotremovepostsbasedontheircontentbeingantiRockfaxorUKC".Asyouareevenhavensuchthoughtinyourmindissad!
IhaveverypositivetowardsRockfax,"SomeofmyclimbingtripsisadirectresultasofaRockfaxguideandIhaveneverbeendisappointedofwhattheyhaveproduced."
IhavealsoinvitedAlanandpublishedaresponsedirectelyonthefirstpage.
HaeMeS
2009020911:56:58
Beingabigconsumerofbothlocaland'foreign'guidebooks,letmeshedalightonhowI(asaconsumer)feelaboutguidebooks.I'vegotabout200differentguidebooksathome,soI'mnotentierlycluelessonthesubjectofbuying/usingthem.
Somewordsonusefullness:SayIwanttospendaprolongedholidayin(acertainpartof)France/Spain/Italy.I'mnotsureyetwheretogo,butwouldliketosampleanumberofdifferentarea's.AguidebookliketheonesproducedbyRockfax,JingoWobbly,LoboEdition,[theAndalusiaTopo],orVersanteSudiswhatIneedinordertoorientateandgettotheareainthefirstplace.I'llalwaysbuythelocalguidebookwhenavailableandfindable.Whichisoftenaproblem!Localsmightknowhowtofindthem,butforeignersoftendon't.
Somewordsaboutavailability(inFrance):Localguidebookpublishersoftendonotunderstandhowtodistributetheirguidebooks.TakeforinstancethenewTarnguidebook,publishedbijtheCAFMillau.Tryandgoogle[tarntopocafmillau].Doesitleadyoutotheguidebook?No.TryandGoogle[climbingAvignon].LeadsmestraighttoJingoWobbly.Getthepoint?Anotherexample:whenIGooglefor[escaladeventoux],thefirsthit(GooglesearchininHolland)leadstoaDutchshopsellingtheJingoWobblyguidebook.NomentionofthenewguidebooktoStLegeronthefirstpageoftheGoogle_search.
Inowoftheexistenceofhttp://www.soescalade.com/inAvignon.InowIcanbuylocalFrenchguidebooksfromthemonlineorintheirshop.Butnoteverybodydoes,right?It'snotthatstrangethatsomeonenewtotheareaandwantingtohaveinformationaboutwheretoclimbbeforehe/shegetsthereisgoingtobuyaRockfax/JingoWobblyguidebookwithfarbetteravailability/onlinepresentation.Andtakethetroublemostpeoplehavewithforeignlanguages.Ifpresentedwiththechoicebetween2guidebooks,bettertaketheEnglishone.
WhyblaimagoodproductionliketheRockfaxguidebooks,withaveryinformativeinternetsitetobackuptheguidebookforbeingsuccesfull?Asthoseguidebooksareoftenfaraheadoflocalguidebooksintermsofcontent,quality,availabilityandinformationaboutthemontheinternet,Ihavethefeelingthatthosecritizisingaresimplyjealousoftheirsuccess.Thisishowoursocietyworks.Weliketobuythebestproductsandbuythemfromcompaniesthatmaketheprocessofbuingeasyforus.
Ontheotherside,somelocalguidebooksmadeby(forinstancethosemadebythelatePierreRouzo)arelovelyworksofart,withgreatattentiontodetail.Ialwaysbuythemandhopeeverybodyappreciatingtheworkoflocalequiperswilldothesame.ButIalsohopethatinsteadofbeingnarrowmindedandunabletounderstandtheneedsof(northernEuropeans?)visitingclimbers,peoplelike(forinstance)MarcoT(typicalreactionofsomeonefromsouthernEurope?)willacceptthewaythingsworkintherealworldandwelcomeguidebookslikeRockfaxandacknowledgetheirmerits.
HaeMeS
p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant.
abcclimbing.com
2009020912:01:59
wellwellwellThankstoPeteO'Donovanwhohadsomeverygoodpointsinthisdiscussionandbroughtittoawaymoreconstructivelevel.Ifhefeelsseriousaboutit,thanthelastpostofAlanJamesdoespleasemealot.Iwouldlovethatthepersonsinvolvednowcouldworkonaconstructivesolutionoftheproblemsencountred.Namelythefoundraisingtogivebackthedeveloperssomeoftheworktheyareputtingin.Andevenifitwouldbequitesymbolical(youwon'tbeabletogivedevelopersthemoneybackforthetimeandnoteventhemoneyinvestedin100routes).Secondly,delicateand/or"secret"areasshouldstaysecretifthedeveloperswhishso.Butwhotakesthedecision,ifseveralbolted?Bytheway,Iuserockfax and/orother"general"guidebooksalottodecidewheretogoandbeforeIgo.ThelocalguidebooksarenormalymorecompleteandIalwayspurchasethemtoo.
abcclimbing.com
2009020912:15:34
Anideaifwearetalkingaboutaccessproblems...Ireallylike8aforthedatabaseitisandalargeamountofrockclimbers(andthereforeknowledge)itrepresents.Wouldn'titbegreat,ifon8aorONEotherhomepage,therewouldbecentralinformationaboutaccessproblems/restrictions/...AND,therecouldandshouldaswellbealinktoanhomepage,thatprovidesthenewestinformationonthismatter.ASWELL,onecouldextendthisfunctionwithlinkstohomepagesand/orplaceswhereyoucanpurchasethetopos(asitisoftendifficultwithlocalonestoencounterthem).Thiswouldbesomeworkforthewebmaster,butthecommunitycouldfillinthedata.Onthelongrun,everybodywouldwinbyeasilyencounteringtheinformationoralinktoit.
MichaelRyan 2009020914:50:23
JensLarssensaid:>"However,howAlanJamescanfinishhisverypositivewithyetanotherpersonalattackisjustverysad."
Jens,onyournewspageyouaccusedAlanofcausingaccessproblemsandbeingathief.
That'snotjustsad,itsdownrightdisgracefulandslanderous.Yououghtbeashamedofyourself.
TakenoteofwhatHaeMeSsaid:
"p.s.Jens:tryandrunthissiteabitmorelikeaprofessionaleditor/journalist.Audiaturetalterapars.WhenMTinforms8aaboutanissuelikethisone,betheonetogoroundaskingquestionstothoseinvolved.Thenanalyseandwriteathoughtfularticleabouttheissue.Thatswhatdifferentiatesagoodjournalistfromarandominternetbloggerwithanillinformedrant."
AndJens,goodeffortonyourdecisiontoincludeaccessinformationinyourcragdatabase.
Mick
AlbertCortes
2009020915:02:05
Lastyear,theformerownerofMontanejosRefugio,publishedaguide.Almostatthesametimeotherpeopleproducedanotherone.Ernesto,theformerownerclaimedthattopotobebannedanditwenttotrial.Lastnovember,aspanishcourtpassedsentenceagainsttheMontanejostopoproducedbythosepeoplethatsimplymadethetoposhimselvesbutneverboltedorhelpedMontenejosinanywaytodevelopit,asweknowitnowadays.Thecourtorderedthetopotobetakenawayfromallbookshopsanda30000eurofinetotheproducers.
Thesearefacts.
Now,whenIgetholdofthefinalpartofthatsentence,Iwilltranslateandpostithere.
Jens
2009020916:02:14
@Michael:IhavenotaccusedAlanofanything.However,IhavequotedMarcoTroussierwhohadsomenegativethingstosayaboutRockfax.Tosumup,wecaseethatAlanhasanewwiewontheissue,comparedtothemailconversationhehadwithMarco,andthatisgood.
@Albert:Iguess,thismeansthatRockfaxoranyotherexternaltopoproducer,infact,areatriskinaspanishcourt.
DavidAtchisonJones
2009020916:44:25
HiAlbert,IwaswonderinghowlongitwouldtakeonthistopicforourgoodfriendErnestotoenterthearena.Justtokeepeveryoneelseinformed,hesinglehandedlydevelopedanentireareaonhisownandwithoutandassistancefromanyone.Apartfrombeingaverygoodclimberhewasacompleteeccentric.Hepublishedhistoposondarkredpaper"sonobastardcouldcopythem."Honestitstrue!
OnebigconundrumwithFranceisthattheFFMEdoessecurefundingforprofessionalpaidclimberstoequipcliffs andalmostentirelyatthelowerendofthegradessinceschoolsandclubsusethecliffs.Thisisallgovernmentmoneypaidbythetaxpayers.Nowconsider:Mostofthenewcliffsbeingdevelopedonlyreallycontainroutesof7bupwards.Thereforehavingageneralcollectionfundishardlygoingtoappealtothoseclimbinginthegrade5or6'swhyshouldtheysponsorroutesandcliffstheynevergoto.It'sgoingtobeabigquestionfor8aclimberstoanswer.Idoubttherearetoomanygrade5climberssurfingthissitetoletthisfeelingbeknownbutIwouldnotbesurprisedifthefeelingwerequitestrong.
Ifontheotherhandyoumakecollectionsfortheboltsattheactualdevelopmentcliffsthemselveswherethe7a8croutesare,theclimbersgetachancetotalktotheequippersandlettheirfeelingsknownonthestyleofboltingetc,plusyouexactlytargetthepeopleclimbingthoseroutesinthosegrades.Simplicityisusuallyaverygoodanswer.
MichaelRyan 2009020917:26:15
AlanJamesofRockfaxhasnotchangedhispositionatanystageduringthedebatehecameinsayingexactlywhathesaidwhenheleft.
SononewviewfromRockfax.
AasimilarlegalsituationtotheoneAlbertoCortesmentionswasdroppedintheUKin2001becausebothpartiescametotheconclusionthatseekingalegalsolutionwasnotinthebestinterestsofclimbers.
Thishassubsequentlybeenprovenbeyonddoubtwithbothpartiesgoingontoproducebetterpublicationsthaneverinthesamecompetingareas.
Mick
9b
2009020917:34:02
@grigri:itstruethatonecanprintmultiplecopiesoflockedpdf,but,really,printedbooksarenotsafer:YoucanmakephotocopiesandwithascannerdigitalizethemandprintasmanycopiesasYouwant.Andthereisemuletoo...
Internetisgoingtobemoreandmore"allfree"andthereissomething"betterthanfree"too...
AlbertCortes
2009020917:50:21
IntheSpanish"case"therehasbeenNOAGREEMENTbetweenbothparties,sothe"ilegalguide"hasbeenwithdrewfromsellinganddistributing,itseemsabigdifferencetothesituationintheUKthatMickRyanmentions.
BrianRunnells
2009020917:51:48
Themainnewsarticlestillreadsasthough8aistheonesayingthatRockfaxisstealingfromlocaldevelopers. Wouldittakethatlongtoexercisesomepunctuationandeditingtomakethingsmoreclear?
Pillard 2009020918:04:49
Heyall,
Idon'twanttojumpintothedebate,butjustsaythatunlikeseveralofyouguys,IreallyappreciatedthewayJenshandledthiscase.Hesimplyreportedsomeoneelse'sconcerns,which,oncereinterpretedwouldhavecompletelylosttheirsubstance.
Somepeopleherelikethepoliticallycorrect,probablytoprotecttheirbusinesses.I,asaclimber,liketrueopinions.whichincidentallyareoftennotverycompatiblewithbusiness...Pleasedon'tletpersonnalinterestsdestroythespiritofclimbing!
Onanothernote,Idontbelievethatitisveryusefulltomakefalseclaimsandtogivemoralitylessons:everythingdependsonone'sopinion:Regardingthisnews,andtomyopinionJenshasnothingtobeashamedof(unlikeseveralothers...)
GoodjobJens...andgoodclimbingtoeveryone!:)
Jens
2009020918:25:06
@Brian:Idonotunderstandyourproblemofunderstanding.WhenIreadanewspaperandtheyqoutesomebody,youcandoitthesamewayIdidit.
"...,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunity..."InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes.
@Pillard:Thanksalot.Ihaveprobablymade1000postintheforumandIamgladthatyounoticedthatIhaveneversaidanythingnegativeaboutanotherperson.Ialwaystrytodiscussthesubject.Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!
jghedge 2009020918:35:07
FromDesniveltoday:
http://www.desnivel.com/object.php?o=18116
"pirateosinescrpulos","puroplagiodeguaspublicadas"
Notburiedinthearticlemindyou,butinthetitle.
StillunaddressedinthisthreadbyRockFaxiswhetheritwill"ceaseanddesist"guideproductionifthelocaldeveloperstellthemto.I'mstillgettingtheimpressionthatRFthinksithastherighttogoaheadandpublishifitcannotcometoanyagreementwiththelocals,whichsurelyinmanycasesitwillnotget,duetoRF'spastbusinesspractices.Ipersonallydon'tthinkchargingextraforaRFguidetocompensatethedeveloperswillworkastheRFguidesarealreadytooexpensiveasitis,andanyoneconcernedabouttheissuesthatchargingmoresupposedlyaddresseswillsimplydotheethicalthingand"climbgloballybutbuylocaltopos"asMarcosays.
"Hayotroscasosenlosqueelplagiooelpuroparasitismovaaltiempoqueeltrabajodecampo.UnejemploconocidoeseldelasfamosasRockFax."
Ouch.
grigri
2009020918:51:44
@9b,averyinterestingarticlethanks.Istillfeelthatthedifficultyofcopyinghardcopy(iestandingatthescannerallafternoon)atleastactsasadetterenttowouldplagarisers.Writingrecognitionsoftware(fordigitalizing)isnotperfectandstillrequiresalotofediting,thiswillchangesoonbutfornowthereisstillsomesecurityinhardcopy.Thereisalsolotsofsoftwarearoundfor'unlocking'pdf'sandretrievingthedata.Asfaras'generatives'areconcernedwehavetriedtoaddressthisbyofferinganemailupdateservisetothosewhopurchaseourbook.Theupdateswontmakesensewithoutthebook,andthebookwithouttheservicesoongoesoutofdate.Wecandiscussthisfurtheron9bifulike.
Withregardtothisdebate:Inthefutureelectronicguidescouldofferaddedvaluegenerativessuchasrouteupdatesandinformationservices(access,newaccomodationplacesetc),translationintoyourhomelanguage(bigmarket),streamliningoftopotoreflectyourgraderange(nounnecesaryinfo),directpaymenttodeveloperswithaspecificationofwhichgradesyouwouldliketoseemoreof,discountsonguidesfromthesame(oraffiliated)productionhouse,etc,etc.Ifyoustarttothinkaboutthereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperationand,yes,profit.Hopefullyanewperspectiveonwhatweareactuallydoingandsellingwilleventuallymakeargumentssuchasthistotallyredundant,andopenupavastrangeofavenuesforcooperation.IlookforwardtothedaywhenIcantakeportableelectronicnotebooktothecragandallthisinfocanbestoredremotelytobedl'edatwill(thissiteisanindicationofthistrend),thenwecanstopchoppingdowntreestomakebookswith.
9b
2009020922:05:06
Grigri,therearenotjustpdforpaperguidebooks.Thereareebookstogetherwithvideos andonlineinteractive"topogroups" ,asI'mdescribinghereon9b,whereforsureYouasothersarewelcometodiscuss.Yes,thereareendlessopportunitiesforcooperation,freeinternetistheworldforit.Thepointisthatifyouwanttogainsomethinginafreeinternetworld,thebestbusinessmodelis...tocooperate,begenerous.Whystandingatthescannerifnottosavemoney?
WhynotstartgivingYourhelptosavemoneyinsteadof"deterrents"?Theclimberwhoprefersspendinganafternoonatthescanner,insteadofpaying25eurosfortheprintedtopo,maybewouldpay5eurosforabasicpdf,savinganafternoon.Otherdifferentclimberswouldnotbesatisfiedfromabasicpdf,sotheyprefertospend25eurosforanalreadyprintedversion,happytopayadditionalpricecoveringcostsforpaper,stock,distribution,shipping.So,2/3versionsofthesameproduct:differentprice/qualitylevels,betterpersonalization.Sometimescooperationisjustgivingthemtheversiontheyprefer.
Jens
2009020922:06:24
ThearticleatDesnivelareindeedverynegativetoRockfaxandothers.
Inthecaseof8a,weonlypublishedthepersonalopinionsofMarcoTroussier,andneverthelessweinvitedRockfaxtopublishanansweronthefirstpage.
InthecaseofDesnivel,itisDesnivelthatforwardstheaccusationsbutthereisnowaytoanswerwithacomment.Itwillbeinterestingtoseewhathappends.MaybeRockfaxwanttopublishthesameopenletterastheydidon8a,andwillDesnivelagreeonthat.
AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!
HaeMeS
2009020922:30:47
DearJens,
Doeyouunderstandwhatlanguageyouwrotethe'artikel'(...)in?Letmehelpyou:itwasEnglish.Yousay:"InSwedentheisalwaysusedforqoutes."Ididnotlooklikeaquotetome.Besides,howcanyouhonestlywritesomethinglikethis(asaformofdefence?)thisfardownadiscussion?LookattheanswersfromMichaelandAlan,orPeteandDavid.Theyarefarbetteratreasoningthanyou.You'rejustnotuptothisjob.Forgodssake,hireaneditor.Bemoreprofessionaltheconceptof8a.nuisgood,youarenot.
Quote:"Thesadthingisthatprobably,40%ofthepostsintheforumhavesomekindofpersonalinsultsormoralitylessons.Ihopethatasyoubroughtitup,thispercentagewouldbereducedinthefuture!"
Justbecauseonepersonsayssomethinginyourfavor,youdon'tneedtoemphasiseit.Orisitthatrareforyoutogetacomplement?Doyouthinkwebsiteslikeplanetmountain,UKclimbing,Desnivel,Supertopo,Kairntonameafewgetthislevelofcritisismthrownbackatthem?No,Idon'tthinkso.Growup,getalife.Hireaneditor.Stoppostingyourself,inthisfunnyEngishofyoursandsticktothebackofficeapsof8a.nu.Plentyofworktodoforonthatfront.Sorrytohaveinsultedyou,butIthinkthere'snootherwaytosaythis.It'sallreadybeensaidoftentoyoubutyoushownosignofimprovement.
MichaelRyan 2009021000:06:09
ItmustbethelanguagebarrierorgodforbidJensiscompletelynuts!
Icanbelieveanyonewouldsoslanderousandprovocative.Mustbethelanguagedifficulties!
"AsweallcouldseethattheRockfaxguyswerereallyupsetwiththestoryon8a,wecanexpectmuchworsecollissionbetweenRockfaxandDesnivel!"saysJens.
NoJens,asHaeMeSandothershavesaid,itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks.
Upset?Notatall.Pissedoffwithyourunprofessionalism?
Yes,ofcourse.
RegardsMr40%,
Mick
jghedge 2009021001:19:49
"...itisthewayyouhavecutandpastetheNewsreportfromanemailwithnoeditorialfilter,objectivenessorfairness.....nottomentionbadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarks."
ThatwasasnonsensicalasanythingyouaccuseJensofsaying...editorialobjectivityisafunctionofnothavinganeditorialfilter.UnlessyouworkforRupertMurdochIsuppose...
AndofcoursetherealissuehereisnottheissuesraisedbyTroussierandDesnivel,butratherpunctuationandquotationmarks...yeahright.
Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts.
EllisWhitson
2009021001:38:37
ManyoftheuserswhohavepostedinthisthreadwoulddowelltotakeacourseinEnglishreadingcomprehensioniftheywishtocoherentlydebatesomeoftheseissues.Jensontheotherhandisessentiallyalostcauseatthispoint.Ithasactuallybecomequitehilarioustoseehimcategoricallyignoreanddenyanycriticismtowardshimself/8aandrevelinthefarceofhisownwhimsicalreality.ItisnicetoseethatJensnowacknowledgesatleast40%oftheforumhascaughtontohisinsanity,asopposedtothe1%hesuggestedafewmonthsback.
BonarMcCallum 2009021002:00:36
Perhapswhatisneededisforamemberofthe8acommunitytointerprettotheirbestabilitywhatissaidinthearticle.Thiscouldbedoneonarotatingbasisaspeopleseefit.Perhapsagoodwaytoapproachitistosay"whatIthinkJensissayingis...""andthenputitinthebestlightpossible.Ifthiswasdoneatthetopofeachpostitmaybeaneffectivewaytokeepthetopicslessnastyandmorepleasantandproductive.
Oritmightjustbereallyentertaining.
Hereismythoughtonhowthewordingintheinitialarticlecouldhavebeenwrittentotakethefocusoffof8aasaculpritandtogettotheissues.Notethatthisisallfictional,asIdon'thaveanyfacts.WhatIthinkJenswassayingwas:
"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchFederationFFME,contacted8awithregardstoguidebooksbeingproducedbyexternalorforeignsources.AccordingtoM.Troussier,publisherssuchasRockfaxarecreatingproblemsonacoupleoffronts:
First,thereareproblemstolocalaccessduetothefactthatoftentheexternallyproducedtoposdonotincludeaccessissues.Thelocalequippers,alongwithlocalguidebookproducersworkhardtomakeandupdateaccessagreementswithlandownersandlocalauthorities,andcommunicateanyspecificdetailsinthelocallyproducedguidebooks.Asmuchofthisinformationnotintheexternallyproducedguides,thereisagravepotentialforconflictstoarisethatcausemajoraccessproblems.
Second,M.Troussierallegesthatforeignguidebookproducersarecopyinglocalproductions,andaretakingadvantageofthehardworkthatlocalequippersandtopoproducersputintodevelopingnewcrags.Proceedsfromlocalguidebooksalesareusedtorecoupexpensesandtimeputintocragdevelopment.Thosedoingthisworkareoftenupsetwhentheyseecommercialtoposproducedabroadintheirareas.Tothemitmeansthattheprofitisgoingtosomeonewhohasputinnoefforttodevelopthearea,takingawaythisopportunityfromlocalproducers.
Says,MTrousseau:Theyarestealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems!
AsRockfaxseemedtobethefocusforMarco,8acontactedAlanJamesfromRockfax.Hisresponsewas.
Perhapstherecouldbean8aeditorialatthispoint.
grigri
2009021007:59:02
IagreeBonar,Ioncedidexactlythatinadiscussionanditdefinitelydampenedthingsdownandkeptthediscussionreal.JenspleasereadBonarpostcarefullyitisagoodexampleofhowtostructureareportcontainingquotations.IreallythinkitwouldhelpyoutohaveanEnglishspeaking(firstlanguage)editoronyourteamtoavoidthesemisunderstandings.Ifinditextremelyupsettingtoreadanendlessslandermatchinsteadofhealthyandconstructivedebate.Thiscouldsoeasilybeavoidedwiththeuseofproperenglish.
Qoutationscanbewrittenlike:
JoeBlogs:"Blablabla".
or:
"Blablabla"JoeBlogs.
Adashonitsownmeans'asfollows'or'leadsto',itdoesnotindicateaquotationever.Quotationmarksarecalledthatforareason.8ahaslongsincepastthestagewhereitcanberunaspetwebsiteoperatedfromyourloungeorthelocalwirelesscafe.Thereneedstobealevelofprofessionalismwhichatpresentissadlylacking.Ireallythinkyourtimewouldbebetterspentimprovingonthefunctionalityofthewebsite(likeadecentforumforexamplepostinghereispainfullyslow)ratherthanendlesslydefendingyourselfforsimpleeditorialmistakesthatcouldeasilyhavebeenavoidedbyemployingacompetentenglishspeakingwriter.
Thatsaid8aisstillagreatsourceofinformation,Ithinkyouhitthenailontheheadwiththisarticle.ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!Ihopetoseemorerealinnovations(websitefunctions)fromyouguysinfuture,butpleasegetsomehelpwiththeenglishlanguageinyourreports.
respectfullyGregHart.
MichaelRyan 2009021008:36:02
Grigrisaid
"ThesheervolumeofresponsefromtheRFcrowdindicatestomethatyouhitasorespot!!Welldone!"
Wronganddon'tencouragehim.
Theresponsesareduetothefactthatthisdiscussion,ashasbeenpointedoutisfullofmisinformationandpropaganda.
It'sasmearcampaign,againstoneguidebookpublisher.
Nothingconstructivehascomeoutofit.
Infactnothingbutnegativityascanbeseenbycommentslikethis,
"Itisgratifyingtoseethesepirates(yes,piratesandplagiaristsMick,sorryyoucan'thandlethetruth)finallygettingtheirjustdesserts."
AninternetslangingmatchcausedbyJensLarssen.
Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce.
Iverymuchdoubtit.
MarcoTroussier
2009021009:01:42
Firstofall,thankyoufor8aandJensforhostingthoseexchangeandpointofvue.Wearenottalkingabout"+"or""aboutanewroutessomewhereinanobscurcliff.Thereareseriousproblemseverywhereintheworld.Itcoulbeaninternationalmeetingeveryyeartotalkaboutthat.Thequestion"economics"and"climbing"couldalsobeaninterestingtopic.
Thosearesriousproblems,interdictioninFrance,waytosolvethemandwhoisdoingthejobforwho'sbenefitisagoodquestion.Thinkinglikethiscanelevatethedebate.MrJingoiswrongformanythings.Let'stalkaboutSaintlegerexample(http://www.ffme.fr/site/FALAISE_fiche.php?id=2069).TherewasstrongproblemofaccessinSaintlger.Bycycling,walkingandclimbing.ThenationalforestofficewasupsetwewereveryclosetoatotalinterdictioninSaintLgerduetoenvironnementaleuropeanpolicyofpreservation.Wedecidetonotpublishatopo beforetheproblemswouldbesolveand......MrjingodidatopocoveringthatpartofLuberon....LetsimaginetheproblemswiththeNationalofficeofforest,andyoucanimaginewhoisdoingthejobalso...notMrJingo.ThelocalrousetterwiththehelpoflocalFFME(weareworkinglikethatinFFMEnationalisnotinvolveexceptmyadviceswiththelocalcragsproblems)didthejobforthebenefitofallclimbers.....Thisisconcretecaseandthosearethefact!ThentheyfundasolutionafterseveralmeetingwithONFandclimbingisOkinSaintlgerandGrozeauand.....therisnowaFrenchtopo,theonlyonewhoisvalidtoexistTheonlyoneyouhavetobuy.Thanksforthediscussion,infrancewewillcontinuetoworkforthefreedomofclimbing(morethan200personsinvolvelocally)andwewillcontinuetosolveproblemsandwehopeyouwillbuyourtoposbecausenowtuouwouldnotsay"idon'tgivea....ofthatproblems,andidon'tcareaboutthoseclimbers".Ihopetoparticipatetoothergreatdebateavboutimportantthingsfortheclimbingcommunity.
jghedge 2009021009:55:01
"Youthinkanyonewillstoppublishingguidebooksinprintorontheinternetbecauseofthisfarce."
No,butIcan'timagineRFgoingonasbefore.WhentheeditorofDesnivelcallsRFpirates,plagiaristsandparasitesintheleadeditorialoftheprinteditionofthemag...I'vebeenreadingclimbingmagsfor35yearsandIdon'tremembereverreadingeditorializinglikethat,KenWilsonoffhismedscouldn'thavetoppedit...
Mindyou,mySpanishisn'tPh.Dlevel...maybethere'ssomebadpunctuationandshoddyquotationmarksinit,soRFmightcomeoutsmellinglikearoseafterall...
HaeMeS
2009021010:59:04
InreplytoMarco:LetsuseStLegerasanexample.Youaresurelyawarethattopo'sofStLegerexistedlongbeforetheoneproducedbyJingoWobbly.Takeforinstancethistopo,madebyalocal(PauldeWilde):http://5sup.com/st_leger/topo_st_leger.pdf.Thistopodoesinfactmentiontheaccessissue:"IlnexistepasdeconventionentrelaFdration(ComitDpartementalduVaucluse)etlepropritaireduterrain."Nevertheless,thetopowasmadeanddistributed.Apartfromtheinternettopo's,StLegerwasalsoheavilypublicizedintheclimbingmedia(inprint)sinceit'searlydevelopment.
Whatwentwronginthisinstance?Werethosewhowantedtoclimbtherewronginactualllygoing,afterhavingseenpicturesandheardstoriesaboutthisbeautifullarea?Andweretheywrongintheirneedforatopo?OrwerethosewhoequippedtheroutesWITHOUTfirstsolvingtheaccessissuewrong?I'llleaveittoyoutodecide.
Asforthelinkyou'veprovidedtotheFFMEsite:theFFMEdoesagoodjobofprovidinginformation,regulatingtheaccesstoclimbingsitesand(supportingthe)equiping(of)thesite(s).IthinkoneshouldconsulttheFFMEbeforepublishingaboutanarea.Betterstill,oneshouldcontacttheFFMEbeforeboltinginthefirstplace.Butthereisnoneedtomonopolisetherighttopublishaguidebooktoanarea.Aslocalsareoftennotabletounderstandtheneedsofvisitingclimbers,itshardlysurprisingtheystartmakingguidebooksthatsuittheirownneeds.Thoseguidebooksareawelcomeadditiontothelocalguidebooks.WhynotusetheopportunityandstartaninitiativetoproduceFFMEareaguidebooks?It'snotjustNorthernEuropeanpublishers(Rockfax,Rotpunkt,Cicerone,Loboedition),butalsoSpanishandItalianpublisherswhoknowwhatpeoplewant(seeforinstanceAndaluciabyDavidMunillaortheVersanteSudareaguidebooks).
Dontwhine,butact!
DavidAtchisonJones
2009021011:08:18
HiMarco,Ihavereadyourcomments.IunderstandandappreciateyourworkandthatoftheFFME,ONFetc.IfirstdiscoveredSt.Legerinthemid1980s,andhavebeenwellinformedastoeverythingthathasgoneon.Tosaythewholedevelopmentwasadisasterwasanunderstatement,IcouldgoonabouttheimpactofMagazinearticles,climbersclimbinginthebioareawhentheywerenotmeantto,notusingpropercampsitesetc,etc.Noitwasadisasterandthatisthat.NoneofthesewereanythingtodowiththeJingoAvignonBook.
Ihavetwogoodpointstoaddtothisdisussion.IboughtmyfirstMonanejostopoyearsagoinpesetas!IboughtisdirectfromErnestotheauthor.Hetookallthemoney.Theshopwashisrucksac,andthedeliverycompanywashislegstothecliff.Soafterreasonableproductioncostsofsay50%,50%ofthemoneypaidwenttotheAuthorErnesto,whowasalsotheequipper.IthoughtthiswasgreatandcameupwiththeideaofaclimbingguidebooktoEurope.ItwouldhaveallthecliffsinEuropebutnotopos.Insteadyouhadfreeadvertsforanyonethatmadeandsoldatopoatthecliff.TheneveryonecouldtravelallaroundEuropeandusethisbook.Thisideawastosupportlocalauthors/equippers.Thisbookisnowcominguptoits20 thyearandisinits5 theditionandiscalledJingoWobblyEuropeSportVertical.Soafewthanksforthepast20yearswouldbegrateful.Itisalsoworthsayingthatthisworkhastakenmeover25years,andIhavetakenovermillionphotos.Thecostinproducingthishasbeenimmense,andmoneyfrombeingtheauthoractuallyonlycoversabout10%oftheexpenditure.Ihavenotbeensupportedbyanynationalclimbingfederationitisallmoneyfrommyownpocket.
Sohowdiditallgowrong?Itwasagreatidea.BacktoErnestoagain,hekepthisheadandrefusedtosellanyofhistopostoasecondagent,andyoucouldonlybuythemfromhim.Thiswayhegotallthe50%andmadesenseofequipping&sellingtopos.Othershoweverlosttheplot!Theysoldtheirtopostoshops,whothennaturallytooktheirpercentage,leavingtheauthorwithonly10%.Thatwaswhereitallstartedtogowrongsincetheshoptook30%,andtheshippingtookanother10%,sothewholeconceptofactuallyraisingmoneywasnotworking.EvenashoplikeSoescaladeneedstoemploystaffandusedeliveryservices.IveevenseenFrenchguidebooksforsaleinCaliforniaatacost!Inthoseinstancesonly4%ofmoneyactuallypaidwouldhavegonetotheauthor!Ifyouaregoingtousetheargumentoftopomoneygoingtoauthorswhothengiveittoequippers,thentheymustselldirecttoclimbersatthecliffsthemselvesonly.
MichaelRyan 2009021014:47:36
Ifanylocaltopomakers/publishersinFranceorSpainwantthereguidesdistributedintheUKcontactRichardatCordee.
http://www.cordee.co.uk/
Asyoucanseethereareseveralguidesalreadythere:
France:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesfrance.php
SpainandPortugal:http://www.cordee.co.uk/rockclimbguidesspainportugal.php
YoucanevenbuyaguidetoBenNevis,ScotlandbyaFrenchauthor!!!!!!ThelateandgreatGodefroyPerroux.
http://www.cordee.co.uk/CCN027.php
AlsowerunDestinationarticlesatUKClimbing.com,ifanylocalauthorswouldliketopreviewtherelocalcragsandguidebooks,getintouchwithourdestinationseditor
Onlyareasthatdon'thaveaccessconcerns,andofcourseno'secret'areas.
Example,andpleaseupdateifyouseeanythingamiss
GorgesDuTarn,France
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1556
Cheers,
MickUKClimbing.com
MichaelRyan 2009021014:49:43
YoumaynotethatwehaveincludeddetailsofthelocalGorgeduTarnguidebookinthatparticulararticleatUKClimbing.com
WheredoIgettheguidebook?
'LeTarn'bytheClubAlpinFrancais,isavailablefromthe"tabac"inLeRozierandLesVignesandalsofromanumberofthebookshopsinMillau.Itisnowalittleoutofdate(firstpublishedin2000)butnewrouteinformationisavailablefromtheclimbingwallinMillau.
Mick
JoakimThommesen
2009021016:27:54
AmItheonlyonetoseethatasignificantpartofthis"gettingpaidproblem"iscompletelyfictional?
Developersofnewroutesdoesnotneedtobefinanciallyrewarded.Everybodyknowsthis.GoodcragsandgoodlineswillbeboltedbyenthusiasticclimbersbecausetheyLOVEDOINGIT.Notbecausetheygetpaid.Anyoneclaimingsomethingelseiseitherlyingorafool.
Whatyouneedmoneyforisthereboltingofcrags.Period.
-
Forum:GLOBAL /News/Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction Loginintocontribute
Accessproblemsdueexternaltopoproduction
www.8a.nu
2009020600:00:00
"MarcoTroussier,fromtheFrenchfederationFFME,hasinformed8athat externalguideproductionlikeRockfaxcopyinglocalproductionisathreattolocalaccesswork.FFMEisworkinghardwithaccessissuesbutoftentheexternalproducedtoposdonotincludethelastlocalagreementsandcouldcreateaccessproblemsetc.Theequippersandthelocaltopoproducermakeandupdateaccessagreementswiththelandownerandthelocalcouncilinmanycliffs.Theseguysareoftenupsetwhentheymeetforeignerswithacommercialtopoproducedabroad.InsomecasestoposlikeRockfaxcouldcreatedbiglocalaccessroblems,accordingTroussier.Theclimbingcommunityshouldsupportlocallyproducedtoposandlocalaccessagreementseverywhereintheclimbingworld.Rockfaxisstealinglocalmoneyandcreatingaccessproblems.Moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp!"
JohanSvensson
2009020603:42:32
Thisissoonesided,"moralityagainstprofit,chooseyourcamp",whatisthat...Theremustbeawaytoworktogether.LocalguidesareoftenhardtogetbyandperhapsRockFaxcouldhaveawebadresswheretheypresentupdatesonlocalinfo.Ithinkthatisaresposibilitythatcomeswithproducingguides!
MattHall 2009020604:41:53
It'sridiculoustomakethisissuesoblackandwhite.Peopleneedtoeducatethemselvesastolocallanduseagreementsandcustoms.WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors.Theyshouldconscienceenoughtoincludeinformationonaccessissuesetc.butasclimbersitisalsoourdutytoinformourselvesandberespectful.
jghedge 2009020608:02:03
"WithconcerntoRockfax"stealinglocalmoney"Ithinktheyhaveeveryrighttocompetefairlywithlocalguidebookauthors."
Thethingyou'renotgettingisthatthey'renotjust"localguidebookauthors". Thepeoplewhospentthetimeandmoneytodevelop(bolt)thecragsarelookingtorecouptheircostsbysellingguidestotheareatheydeveloped.IfRockfaxwantstoprintguidestocrags,thentheycangooutandbolttheirowncrags,andprintguidesforthem.Therearecertainlyplentyofnewareastodevelop.
Ifafriendofyoursspentthousandsofdollarsandhundredsofhoursdevelopinganewcrag,wouldyoutellhimyouhave"everyrighttocompete"ifyoupublishedaguidetoitagainsthiswishes?Orwouldyoulethimputouttheguidesohecouldgetbacksomeofthemoneyhespentdevelopingit?
StefanoVarnerin
2009020609:29:36
Itotallyagreewithjghedge,we'renottalkingabout2bookauthorsincompetition,butaboutthelocalareadeveloperthatspendtime,energyandalotofMONEYtoboltcliffsthatwecanallclimbeduehishardworkandaboutsomeonewhoonedaycametothecliff,buythelocalguideandsay"nicespot,icancopytheguideandsellitabroad"..........sowhohastheright?
AlanJames 2009020609:51:44
OneoftheproblemsmanytravellingclimbershavewhenvisitingcragsinFranceisgettingholdofthelocalinformation.Theguidebookscoververysmallareasandareusuallyonlyavailableinselectedlocations.Theresultofthisisthatclimberseitherjustvisitthemainpopularcrags,ortheyvisitthenewcragswithoutproperinformation,whichcancauseproblemsiftheyparkinthewrongplace,orclimbthereatthewrongtimeofyearwhenthecragisclosedforsomereason.
ThenewRockfaxguidestoFranceaimtohelptravellingclimbersbybringingtogetherlotsofsmallcrags,togetherwiththemorepopularones,intoafewbooks.Thebooksarebeingcarefullyresearchedsothatwehavegoodaccessinformationtoavoidproblemswithlocallandowners.Formostofthecragswewillnotbeincludingallthesectors,justafew,wewillthenbepointingatlocalguidebookswherepeoplecangetextrainformation.
Theinformationinthesebooksisnotcopiedfromotherbooksinmanycasesthatisimpossiblebecauseitdoesn'tevenexistinotherguidebooks.Allthephotosandmapsandinformationisbeingresearchedbytheauthor.Ofcoursewedouselocalguidebookfortheroutenames,andwealsousethelocalgrades,althoughwedoassessthoseourselvesaswell.
Therehasalwaysbeenaquestionaboutlocalclimbersfundingboltingbyse