File: Mediation.mp3Duration: 0:53:31Date: 04/09/2013Typist: RH6

START AUDIO

George: Viv, Eric, I’d just like to start by thanking both of you for

agreeing to come to the mediation in the first place. We

thought it might be useful if we just ran through a couple of the

things that we’ve already talked about in the pre-mediation

meetings, but just so that everybody is comfortable with it.

Could I just check first of all, I’ve actually used Eric and Viv, is

it all right if we use Christian names, first names?

Eric: Yes, that’s fine with me. Absolutely

Viv: Yes, that’s fine.

George: Excellent. I think the first point we’d like to make is that we are

not here to judge either of you. It is not our role to make

decisions on your part. It is not our role to decide whether

you’re right or wrong.

We are here to help you to arrive at a solution that you both

can agree with and in our experience those are the ones that

tend to work, whereas if we impose from the outside, they tend

not to work. Does that make any degree of…?

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Eric: Yes, that’s okay

Viv: Yes.

George: I think the other point I would make, is that you may see us

taking notes during the day and you are absolutely free to do

the same if you feel you’d like to do that.

Because of the point, which Mildred will pick up on in a

second, of confidentiality, just to say that our notes will be

destroyed at the end of the day and you may feel that that’s an

appropriate thing to do with any notes you make. But we’ll pick

that up at the end.

Viv: Okay.

(Break in audio ___[0:02:22])

Mildred: Just really to stress to both of you the confidentiality of today’s

proceedings. That as you know already, the whole meeting

today is a confidential one, nothing will be repeated, by either

of us or anyone without your permission to do so. Any

individual meetings we may have with you throughout the day

that George and I may have with you will be confidential within

that meeting as well and again, nothing will be repeated

without your permission. Is there any query you have from

that?

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Viv: No, I don’t think so.

Eric: No, not at this point.

Mildred: Okay, thank you. George, do you want to take the mic over?

George: The other thing that we talked about when we met last time

was; mediation is very much about the future. What happened

in the past can become the sole topic of conversation, and our

experience is that that can become destructive.

Where, however, it throws up an example of an issue that’s

important to you, then again, in our experience, it’s worthwhile

looking at that, because it exemplifies something that you want

to correct for the future and ensure never happens again.

You may find that we perhaps curtail some long investigations

and some long discussions about what’s happened in the past.

Purely because we’re conscious of your time and the need to

spend that time looking at how you might want to stop this sort

of thing happening again. Will that be all right, will that be okay

with you if we do that?

Viv: Yes, yes, thanks very much.

Eric: Yes.

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George: Okay, excellent thanks. Any final thoughts you…

Mildred: Yes, just if I talk, possibly on the voluntary nature of mediation,

that you’re here today on a voluntary basis, with the result, of

course, that you can leave if you want. We hope you won’t do

that, that you will stay and, in our experience, parties who do

stay and try throughout the day to work through their

differences and discuss matters, that’s the best chance of

success to resolving any issues. Okay?

Eric: I can leave at any time then if I want to?

Mildred: Yes you can, either of you can. But, as I say, we hope that you

will stay and we hope you will want to stay to talk through your

differences that you can put right today.

Viv: That’s fine.

Mildred: Is that quite clear?

George: Well it might be worth, I think to, if you feel during the day at

any time you just need to take some time out, just take a break

for five minutes, go for a walk. You might not want to talk to us

in a private session. You might just need to think about

something you’ve just heard.

At any time, just say, “Look, I need time out.” That’s fine.

That’s absolutely up to you to decide.

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Viv: That’s good.

Eric: Okay.

George: Okay. Anything else, then, before we might start the

discussions?

Viv: I can’t think of anything.

Eric: Just tell me how long it’s likely to take.

George: I think it’ll take as long as you think it’s worth spending the time

on. Again, we’re not here to tell how long you need to spend

on resolving something that’s very much between the two of

you. If you believe it’s worth spending the time, we’re here;

we’ll spend the time with you.

Mildred: Yes.

Eric: Okay.

George: So we’re not limited to today, as we said before. But it’s very

much up to you two to just tell us whether you think this is

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being useful, positive. If it is and you want to carry on, then

we’ll spend the time.

Viv: Okay.

Eric: Okay.

Viv: We’ll give it a shot.

Eric: I’ll give it a go.

George: Okay, great, thank you.

(Audio break ___[0:06:27])

George: When we met, we talked about the possibility of each of you

taking perhaps five or six or seven minutes, just to give your

view of how you think this whole thing started. What you might

hope to get out of this mediation process, and just to do that

for each other, you may feel that the other person is absolutely

what this is about. But you may actually find that you have

different perspectives and that’s fine.

That, we find, is quite a useful way of just starting the ball

rolling and then you’ll have the opportunity to pick up on what’s

been said and talk backwards and forwards. Wouldn’t that be

an idea?

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Viv: Yes, okay.

Eric: Certainly on my part, because I’m confused about what all this

about anyway and I’ve been told to get involved in this

process.

George: Okay.

Eric: Although I’ve entered into it voluntarily, I’m not really… I’m

genuinely confused about what Viv is accusing me of.

George: Okay. All right. So would you be happy just to carry on Viv,

would you happy if Eric used that as a starting point for a

couple of minutes to explain how he thinks and how he feels?

And then you’d have the same opportunity.

Viv: Yes, that’s fine by me.

George: Are you sure?

Viv: Yes, yes.

Mildred: It might be worth adding, George, just at this moment, when

you are speaking, if we could ask the other party just to listen

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and listen without interrupting and then, of course, you get the

opportunity to do the same. I would ask you, Eric, when Viv’s

speaking to do the same. Is that all right with you?

Eric: Well, to be honest, you know, as I said, I’m confused about

what the problem is in terms of where I’ve gone wrong or

whatever in terms of management style and whatever and so I

would rather that Viv told me what she thought the problems

were and then I can try and understand what it’s all about,

basically.

George: Okay.

Viv: So you’re saying you want me to start?

Eric: Yes.

Viv: Okay.

George: Would that be all right with you?

Viv: Yes, that’s fine.

George: All right, thank you.

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Viv: Well. Where to start?

(Break in audio ___[0:08:42])

Viv: I just feel that any suggestions I make, you’re constantly

questioning what I do.

Eric: I don’t think quite fair really, because after all, it’s a new job

and you’re just into what’s a very complex organisational

process that we run here and you can’t expect just to be able

to come in and just start off right away.

If you make a mistake or something, you know what the

position’s like, you have to go back to square one

___[0:09:05].

Mildred: Can I stop you there, Eric? Just as ___[0:09:07], I value your

contribution Eric. This is Viv’s opportunity as we said to give

her perceptions and say what she thinks.

Eric: Okay.

Mildred: And what she hopes to achieve today. If we could just ask you

to listen to Viv and you’ll get the opportunity to do the same.

Eric: Sorry. Okay.

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Viv: I’m sorry, but this typical. I try and get my point over and it’s

not listened to. You jump in and, Eric, I’m sorry, but if I’m to

have my say, these are the things that are problems for me.

These are my real concerns. The idea of being treated as a

newcomer. The sense that there’s a sort of arrogance. Your

attitude is sort of arrogant towards me, that somehow I’m not

your equal, I’m not allowed to do the things that I thought I was

employed to do. That I’m not listened to and meetings are a

disaster; I just feel that I’ve got no respect in the team

meetings because they don’t see me as your equal; they see

me as your lackey. That I took this job in good faith that I

would get the chance to develop my skills, to build up my CV

and really, I’m so frustrated and it’s getting to the point that I’m

at the end of my tether.

I don’t know how to get through to you that this is just not

working for me. I really like the department. I like the idea of

the job, I feel I can do a really good job; I’m not getting a

chance to do it. But the atmosphere that has developed

amongst the teams, between you and I, it’s just poisonous. I

just can’t get anywhere with it. I suppose that’s all I really want

to say at the moment.

Actually, it’s tantamount to bullying. I feel I’m not getting a

chance to do what I’m employed to do, that I’m put down all

the time and it feels like I’m being bullied and I don’t like being

bullied.

Mildred: Okay. Thanks, Viv, for your openness. We acknowledge, I

think, that this can be very difficult to come and meet, so thank

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you for your openness. Is there anything else that you just

want to add at the end there?

Viv: Not really, but I really hope that… I suppose what I do want to

add is that if anything out of this mediation process; I want to

get it sorted. I am keen to get this sorted. My career is staked

on this.

Eric’s been in the job since pussy was a cat, he’s here until he

retires, but, this is a career move for me and I’ll probably end

up moving on in the future because of the nature of jobs and

things, so it’s really important that I get to do the things that I

was employed to do.

Mildred: Okay. Thank you for that. Eric do you want to say a bit about

why you’re here today and what you would want to achieve?

Eric: Well, I think Viv’s being unfair, because, as I said earlier on,

that Viv’s just new into the job, it’s a complex job. If errors are

made early on, then we lose time and that puts everybody

back. I think in the team meetings that we’ve had, Viv is new

and instead of listening, she just tends to just, bull in a china

shop kind of approach, and this kind of destroyed the team

that I built over years.

The whole kind of way the group’s working is just completely

gone haywire since she arrived because she’s just too

aggressive. I think she’s just too forceful and the rest of the

team are just, I think, anyway, are just not reacting well and it’s

making my job more difficult because I’m busy enough. Viv

was supposed to come in and help me and take some of the

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load and as far as I can see at the moment I’m having to

mentor her, while having to do my day job, while I’m having to

solve all the problems that’s she’s creating within the team and

it’s just making my life a misery, actually and that’s the way

things are at the moment.

Viv: I’m sorry.

Eric: I’m sorry if that’s the way it comes over, but you want me to be

honest, so that’s the view and that’s kind of the way it is.

Mildred: What would you like out of today?

Eric: Well, I would like Viv to become part, a productive member of

the team. Because we are a team and, you know, Viv was

appointed to be my equal. I’ve no problem with that, but the

thing is and my time is coming to a close, so to speak and we

do need continuity in succession and things like that. But the

bottom line is, instead of helping me, it’s hindering me, it’s

making my life more difficult in terms of my workload and that’s

contrary to what the whole business was about.

Today I would like to reach some professional agreement with

Viv that we would work together productively and that she

wouldn’t upset the team so much. I’m certain she has been

doing that, I think, anyway. And that’s all I want to say at this

point.

Mildred: Okay.

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(Break in audio ___[0:14:21]

Mildred: From what was said, it seems as though there are a similarity

of issues. You may not think that, but it’s sitting right here at

the moment. But it would perhaps be a good idea if we could

summarise things at the moment before we moved on to more

detailed discussions. Do you think that would be helpful?

Viv: Well, I think we’d better, because what I’ve heard is just

ridiculous. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be negative, but yes.

Eric: Yes, it will focus the discussion; I think it’s a good idea.

Mildred: We could maybe use the flipboard, just behind us here to jot

some notes on these ideas and piece ___[0:15:06] [words].

Okay, now, what I think we heard there and George, maybe

you could…

George: Okay. I would like to say thank you, too, to both of you. As

much as anything else, for being honest and being open.

Eric: Well there’s no point in being here if we don’t try and get this

resolved.

Viv: True.

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George: Excellent. Well thank you both for that, because we do

understand it’s not the easiest thing for either of you to go

through.

The one main interesting point I noticed, both of you were

concerned about the team. You very much want to be part of

the team; you want to be seen to be adopting a role that’s

valued within the team. The team is something you’ve built up

over the years.

Eric: That’s right.

George: It’s something that you value; it’s what makes ___[0:15:52]

Eric: It’s my team.

George: It’s your team, exactly.

Mildred: Maybe.

George: There are obviously discussions that need to happen around

the team. Would that be a fair statement?

Viv: Yes.

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Eric: Oh, I want Viv to be a productive member, but it’s not for me to

actually ___[0:16:07].

George: The team…

Mildred: Contribution to the team? Would that be a ___[Crosstalk

0:16:12].

Viv: [I would have assumed] they’re my team. I mean, I thought we

were equals.

George: Okay.

Viv: Not our team?

Eric: Well I lead the team at the moment…___[Crosstalk 0:16:22].

Viv: The team is a [feature 0:16:23].

Mildred: Well maybe you could put that with a question mark. That

aspect of equality. Because I think you both mentioned that in

some way and that’s something we could come back to and

see how your contributions and the equality can be resolved

and what needs to happen there.

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George: Yes. The other thought that occurred to me is, it strikes me you

may have slightly different views about the role of, let’s call it,

Team Leader and Number Two.

Viv: Yes.

George: In gaining our experience when job descriptions are written

down, they don’t necessarily translate into what’s written on

the paper. What perhaps you intended and what perhaps, you

believed. The other thought that occurs to me is that it might

be useful at some point just to return to this whole thing of,

either the job description or possibly what Mildred was just

referring to, which is this notion of transition.

You’ve both mentioned the idea that you’re not going to be

here forever, what’s the point of this Number Two, so perhaps

what might help is a look at how that transition might work,

what you would like it to achieve. What Viv would like it to

achieve and see how the two can be married together. Would

that be a fair…

Viv: Yes, I think it’s vital, actually.

Eric: I think it’s all based on the job description, that the idea was

that Viv would come in and learn the job in terms of, it is a

complex job, as I said, the business, fill in these forms, again,

there’s forms you have to fill in and if you don’t do it correctly

then we have to start again.

That is definitely something that Viv has to learn, she can’t just

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come in and lead the team from day one or day two and

expect to get the respect of her colleagues and me, it’s just

not…

Mildred: Is there a question there about how the two of you

communicate that and the aspects of the job?

Eric: I try to speak to Viv and…

Viv: No, no you...

Eric: You’re assertive to me and there’s an example there, you just

don’t want to listen.

Mildred: So perhaps if we put even something as general as

communication and how that is achieved between the two of

you. I agree it’s fundamental.

Viv: I have to agree we have a problem, Eric. ___[Crosstalk

0:18:49].

Eric: For me that’s a starting point. Communication.

(Break in audio [___0:18:54])

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Mildred: Communication. Anyway, you start with the job timing, you

said Viv.

Viv: The timing is tied in with the learning curve.

George: Is that part of planning? I mean, again, what I was hearing

from both of you was this idea of, Viv, you’re looking to be able

to take on parts of the role and say, “I have achieved sufficient

knowledge and understanding to be able to do that part.”

Eric, what I was hearing from you was a slight uncertainty

about whether Viv’s actually trying to take on everything at

once or whether there are particular parts of her role which you

would like her to pick up quickly or that you think it might be

easier for her to pick them up more quickly.

Therefore, if one could look at this, you may actually find that

there are very natural stepping-stones. We have a big issue

here, which is how you take over a role, can we break it down?

Eric: My view is that Viv is trying to take on everything at once, and

that as I said is the basis for what I’m thinking.

George: So, a plan, that broke it down to give you some feeling of

timing, some feeling of…

Viv: And trust. Some feeling of trust that I can do the job.

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Eric: But Viv, do you feel you have tried to take on everything at

once, or do you not? I mean, secondly, do you think, you

know, I haven’t given you enough feedback on how you’re

progressing, on how you’re settling in?

Viv: I just… ___[Crosstalk 0:20:16].

George: Could I pause, could we come back to that? It’s important that

you’ve got the opportunity to ask those questions and that

you’ve got the opportunity to respond. At this stage, just before

we on to that, I’d be keen to try and just get reassurance from

both of you that what we’ve got up here is a good starting

point. Because you’ve…

Eric: Yes.

George: You’ve understandably gone straight into asking Viv.

Viv: Yes, that’s fine.

Mildred: Is there anything vital, do you think that we’ve missed there,

that you would like to add to that list? As a starting point. As

George says, it’s…

Viv: My position on the team is one, so we’ve got the team. My role

and taking on activities, but I suppose that’s all about this

learning curve and that’s ok. Trust. Perhaps something will

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come out of this and I’m just trying to think if there is anything

else. Projects, actually, but again, that’s about… Perhaps that

comes out of the learning curve and…

George: Projects in what sense?

Viv: Well, actually, running… I mean, correct me if I’m wrong Eric,

but when I was appointed for this job, I thought the whole

reason that I was going to be a ___[0:21:29] was that we could

be more productive as a department. Because I could run

projects and Eric would be running projects and, I just thought

that by now I’d be running some projects.

Projects is maybe part of something else, but projects are

important to me, because that’s actually about me having

autonomy to move the stuff, having people working under me,

with me and at the moment, all that isn’t happening and

therefore, I feel undermined and, this is where it’s all coming

from, because I feel there’s no trust in my abilities.

I mean, I do have a string of qualifications, you know, I have

done other jobs, and I need to be able to, to be allowed to

prove myself. That’s it I suppose.

Mildred: You need to prove yourself. ___[Crosstalk 0:22:16].

Mildred: A timing, a timing issue.

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Eric: You’re saying that. You’re saying that I’ve never given you any

projects to do then.

Viv: No, I’m not running with anything at the moment. I’m just in

your shadow and the team members avoid me, well not avoid

me, but, you know where I could be doing things with the rest

of the team, they’re going to you and you’re always too busy to

talk to me. But that’s maybe because the team members are

always going to you. I just feel there’s…

How can the organisation be, as a wider team, and between

us, that’s what I’m saying about the whole situation in the

office being poisonous because it’s… It’s not poisonous, it’s

not that, but it certainly isn’t productive, you know, it’s…

Mildred: It’s productive?

George: If we were to look at this idea of planning of there being a

degree of certainty perhaps about stages and steps and

particular roles and responsibilities with identified hand-over

points. One of the things that we try in mediation is to look at

practical steps that will help you to begin to rebuild the trust

that has perhaps gone.

That will enable you to measure when you’ve actually

achieved something. If one looked at this as a sort of a

planned hand-over, one of the questions we might be asking

towards the end of this is, given that you’ve identified a

particular part of your role, your responsibility, that Viv is going

to take over at a particular point in time and we’ve identified

what it is she might need to learn to pick up on to demonstrate

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in order to take that role on.

But that both of you have a clear point, which if it’s reached

and you know what it looks like, both of you know what it looks

like, then that’s ticking the box and there’s a hand-over. The

feeling of uncertainty…

Eric: Well I thought the shadowing approach was the best way of

learning a job. That’s why I maybe haven’t given Viv a

particular project to do, because I thought, as I said, it’s a very

complex organisation and I thought if she just watched the kind

of things that I did and came in to the meetings, then she

would learn, you know, quietly, in terms of how to take things

forward. But, so maybe there is some merit in that, in the

staging.

George: A project approach.

Mildred: Are there any questions there then, going back to this?

Eric: Well I don’t know whether Viv feels that she’s able to take on

any projects at the moment.

Viv: I think… I’ve been left a bit confused, because I thought I was

able to do these things, but I’ve felt a bit undermined. I mean I

don’t quite know why I can’t just run with one of the projects

that we were particularly looking at the other day in the team.

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Eric: Well, the finance one is the key one. Because I told you about,

that if you get it wrong you have to start again. It’s an

incredibly long and complex process and it’s just so time-

consuming taking it that way.

Viv: The problem is Eric, you never have time. A, I’m not stupid, I

can learn and I have done other finance projects in different

institutions, so I’m sure they’re not fundamentally different. But

whenever I come to you, and I say, “Well, let me run with this,”

you just say, “No, no, no, I’ll do this one, I’ll do it.” You won’t let

go and let me learn and maybe it’s something to do with your

time management and not my time management.

George: Given that there are a number of elements that you would both

be looking to have in the plan, finance is obviously one of

them. I’m assuming that out of some of the other projects

you’re referring to would be actual research projects being run

by the department, so not just, as it were, in terms of

administrative type projects.

If we think about those as being part of the overall plan that we

want to see if we can develop today, is it right that we should

perhaps take something like finance and perhaps one other as

examples of how we might approach everything to do with our

projects.

For example, touching on the communications issues, how

that impacts on the team. How your role within the team would

change as that particular project evolved and developed. How

you would need to allocate time at various stages of that

evolution in order to ensure that not only is Viv getting the

support that she feels she needs from you, but you’re also

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getting the feeling of, “Yes, the progress is being made, the

trust is being built up, that I can hand this over to Viv.”

All those sorts of issues, is that one way of approaching this

that you would find useful, or would you rather do it in a

different way?

Eric: Well, I can see that is a way forward and certainly that, as I

said, that finance project is the one that takes up the most of

my time as it’s the most complex. But I’m just a bit reluctant to

hand over to Viv at this early stage, because of the complexity

and if you make a mistake, you waste such a lot of time. But I

don’t know whether Viv thinks that she’s up to it or whether

you think you could handle that project.

Mildred: What about if we perhaps separate it, had a bit of time and we

spoke with each of you to look at the finance project and just

see our different expectations and what you would see dealing

with that project and then perhaps when we had a picture from

both of you, if both of you came back to discuss your different

pictures. Do you think that would work?

Eric: Well anything to make it simpler. Which I’ve never had time to

look at, actually looking at how we do the fundamental, then

that would obviously save time. But again, I don’t know

whether Viv could handle that she has the ability.

Viv: Well come on, you employed me, surely you thought I had the

ability to, you know. But…

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Eric: Well I did, so there is a way forward then. But I can also check

on how she’s doing the project and if she’s succeeding with it

and that will give me a milestone, an indicator of her.

Viv: I would quite like to just maybe take time out to look at what

my job description was, actually, and from that, given what

we’ve been talking about, it might signal up to me the key

points that I want to clarify with you and see what your opinion

is. Whether I’ve read it, whether it’s been hieroglyphics to me,

or whether I’ve got it right.

George: It’s quite possible and again, it’s our experience in this sort of

situation, it’s all about expectations and where your

expectations and Viv’s expectations match, you have

happiness and a smooth life and everything works well. Where

they don’t, there is conflict, there is uncertainty, there is

confusion and those are the sorts of things that contribute to

having this sort of discussion.

If what we can do today is to help you to get a degree of clarity

about the expectations, then if you feel that would be useful…

Eric: Well, anything that, as I said at the start, anything that will give

me more time back, because I agree this has been an

unfortunate situation to have come about. So anything that can

resolve it... ___[Crosstalk 0:30:01].

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George: It may be a good idea to take a break now and I would just like

to thank both of you for the approach that you’re bringing to

this, because it seems to me wholeheartedly positive and

we’re both very grateful.

Eric: Well, if we’re not honest, we’re not going to get anywhere.

George: Okay.

Mildred: For each of you, giving time to the other, just being listened to

is very useful, I think.

George: Could we say, what fifteen minutes, would that give each of

you enough, or perhaps half an hour?

Eric: Well I’m fine with it, so it’s just for Viv. I’m willing to take a

break.

Viv: Maybe half an hour.

George: How would you feel? Ok, half an hour. Would it be all right if

we just came and knocked on your doors in half an hour just to

see how you’re doing?

Eric: Well I’m fine, it’s okay with me.

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Viv: Yes, that will be fine.

George: Yes, all right.

Mildred: Good.

George: Thanks both very much.

Mildred: Thank you.

George: Jolly good, so see you in half an hour.

(Break in audio ___[0:30:50 – 0:30:59])

Mildred: How are doing Viv?

Viv: Hi.

Mildred: How are you feeling?

Viv: Well I’m quite tired, actually, it’s quite a stressful situation, all

this. But, hopefully it’s going okay. I think.

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Mildred: What are your thoughts about it?

Viv: Well, I’ve been going over my job description and just trying to

clarify what I thought the role was and also I’ve been thinking

about what I would like, given what we talked about this

morning. There have been some positives come out this

morning. I mean, at least Eric is talking to me and listening, but

that might be because you two are here, I don’t know, or me.

But I’m anxious that when we walk out the door all this will

crumble like a pack of cards. But, yes, well, we’ll see, we’ll see

how it goes. But, as I say, I’ve been looking at the job

description and I think that I’ve identified things in the job

description that to me were, “You will be doing this, and that,

and the next thing.” I’m just not getting to do it.

That’s kind of what I want. We’ve all had this preamble this

morning and it has been quite positive and, yes, Eric says he’s

going to listen and he perhaps recognises that maybe, this

may be that. The proof is going to be in the pudding. Unless he

actually lets me do things, then I’m beginning to wonder, why

is he not meeting me half way here.

Mildred: It’s a good place to start with your job description then, just

what you’ve been going over.

Viv: The job description reinforces all the things about how I will

taken on as his equal, with a view to…

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(Break in audio ___[0:32:57])

Viv: He implies that I don’t have the capability of running of the

project, but how is he ever going to trust me to run a project

unless I get to run a project? What do I do to get him to trust

me to do it?

George: There’s some degree of certainty over transition steps of a real

hand-over.

Viv: Yes, I mean, the man’s got to let go. I just wonder if this guy

has got an inability to let go of anything. He’s like a complete

control freak.

George: What do you think he might, if you were in his shoes, what do

you think you might need to see to hand over?

Viv: Gosh, I don’t know, that’s trying to get inside Eric’s head.

Which is not easy. I suppose he would need to see that I can

do the job. That it’s not a disaster. That, actually, I can run with

something, get an outcome, a positive outcome and that it

doesn’t all fall apart.

George: Do you think he might want to see that in stages, or you go

away and come back and surprise him six months later with a

perfectly running project?

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Viv: No, I mean, I never expected to come in and just…

(Break in audio ___[0:34:21])

Viv: I mean, I would have thought that what we could have done is

to have some blocked out time together, or… I mean, we have

actually just to sit down and work out how is he going to let go

and how am I going to take a bit. Maybe I don’t need to take it

all it once. Maybe he needs, you know…

Mildred: Would you like something like a plan to take to him, to say,

“Well, this is how I see it working.” Do you think that would

help?

Viv: Well, yes. I mean, we’ve got a number of projects running in

the department. You mentioned the finance one that was

mentioned earlier. Maybe we could start, I mean, I feel a bit

miffed, I have to say, that I have to prove myself in this way.

Because I feel that by being appointed, in a sense, deemed

they trust me, but, given the circumstances and the intolerable

conditions in the office, I am prepared to perhaps concede

that, yes, I can’t do everything all at once.

But maybe he has to give me a project to run with and an

identifiable one and then maybe we can go through all the bits

and get agreement, or something, I don’t know. But whether

he’s going to go for it, because as I say, I’m a bit scared to

___[0:35:43].

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Mildred: Well, it did seem ___[0:35:46] he was willing to listen, so why

don’t we just see and give it a go? Would you like that?

Viv: Yes, yes. I’ve got nothing to lose.

George: I think the other thing from our experience is that when this

sort of lack of trust has developed over a period of time, the

reality is it’s going to take time to rebuild. I think you’ve just

identified, I think very well, a series of stages where you work

together, you communicate together, you achieve something

together. He demonstrates to you that he’s approving what

you’re doing, you feel that you have actually attained the level

that you wanted to and on that basis, trust is gradually going to

be rebuilt.

I think the reality for us is, in this sort of session, how can we

help you to put into place the practical steps that will help you

to communicate, will help you to demonstrate to each other.

That will help to lead to a rebuilding of the trust. Because this

is not about all sitting around the table holding hands and

being jolly nice to each other.

Mildred: When you say things like, I remember you said at the very

outset, of being important to you, maybe you can remember,

___[0:37:02] he said about him seeing your career and the

stepping-stones to a career and would you say that was

appropriate?

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Viv: Yes, absolutely, there were quite a few things that I took this

job for, to enhance my CV and I was under the impression that

by doing this job I would get to do certain…

Mildred: Do you want maybe just to take a few minutes to jot these

down? They’re the important things that are…

Viv: Okay, okay, yes.

Mildred: Vital to you in your career change. ___[Crosstalk 0:37:39].

Viv: I’m just trying to think.

Mildred: What are you wanting a year from now? What would it be?

Viv: What would I like to have on my CV?

Mildred: Yes.

Viv: Well. I’d like to manage my own team.

(Break in audio ___[0:38:01])

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George: What we’re recognising, to me, is that the finance project is

important, with you because it demonstrates some fairly key

skills and authority that you would like within the team. For

Eric, because of its very importance, it may be one that he is

worried about letting go. Worried about how that transition

could take place.

Because, as he said this morning, it is, he is so keen, it is so

central. It’s so easy to make mistakes and therefore to lose

time and potentially to lose budgets and all that sort of stuff. To

me, it would therefore seem to be a good project to look at in

some detail. If one could use it in such a way that you,

between the two of you, could agree the way in which that

whole finance hand-over, from him to you, is going to be run.

Because the other point that I heard you say about teams this

morning, is that it’s not just the team of people within your own

department, but your department interacts with every other

department in the university in some way, shape or form. In

the finance one, presumably, there are going to be people on

the finance who will become part of the team.

Viv: Yes, that’s right.

George: For that particular project. Might it be a good idea to take a

new piece of paper and what we might do is to map out the

stages that you might think of going through, because this is a

project. We could then take that as a picture and pass on to

Eric to do the same thing and then maybe just use those as

the basis of a conversation between the two of you, where it’s

simply saying, “Look, here’s my picture of how this might

happen,” “Here’s my picture of how this might happen.”

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Where they match, where they differ and then it gives you

something on which to negotiate between you with our help if

you feel you need it. How that project could actually be put to

bed and from today and any other time you feel you want to

spend on this, you might then end up with something that’s

very tangible. Very clearly time-scaled and mapped out.

Mildred: Also, that gives you both what you want.

George: Yes, absolutely.

Viv: Yes, yes. Well.

Mildred: Which might be just the thing.

Viv: Yes. It sounds feasible, if Eric will go with it.

George: Well, would you, would it help if perhaps you spent ten to

fifteen minutes with Mildred, just looking at what the stages of

that might be? Would it give you a bit more comfort if I went

and had a word with Eric to see if he would indeed look at this

in a similar way?

Viv: Yes, I mean there’s no point in me just doing this, because to

Eric, that would just be my wish list. I need to be thinking

about; we need to meet in the middle, somewhere.

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Mildred: You think a joint meeting might be a good idea? Again, once

you’ve got your wish list?

Viv: Yes. After we’ve got my stuff down, if you can get Eric to put

his stuff down and then we’ve got something concrete to look

at and if there’s huge gaps, well, we may have a major

problem, we may not be able to resolve this. But at least, we

know there’s a huge gap potential ___[0:41:33], or, hopefully,

we can bridge gaps.

Mildred: Are there many areas that are common to you both that you’re

wanting?

Viv: Yes. I can’t believe he doesn’t want to work with me. Because

it must be hellish for him too, you know, it’s not productive.

Mildred: Would you maybe like us to share that with him?

Viv: Yes, yes.

Mildred: That you appreciate that it might be hellish for him too, as you

said?

Viv: Yes. If you can get through to him. Actually, I’m not a difficult,

aggressive, pushy female, a horrible person.

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Mildred: Is that important to you?

Viv: Well, it can be. Because it’s hard enough in a man’s world,

especially finance world, to make a mark and I’m not meaning

to make an issue of it. But, I don’t want to be labelled the kind

of, woman, I want to be…

(Break in audio ___[0:42:22])

George: Would you be happy to work through what that project plan

might look like on your own, or would you like Mildred to stay

with you while I go and have a word with Eric?

Viv: I’d appreciate some help with this. That’s handy.

Mildred: Okay, I’d be pleased to do that, of course.

George: Well I’ll go and do that and then, at least, we’ve got some

certainty about what’s going on. Other than the point that

Mildred just raised about your attitude towards Eric, which

you’re happy for us to share with him.

Viv: Yes.

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George: Just to reiterate that everything we’ve talked about in this room

is confidential, so we won’t be repeating it to anybody, unless

you specifically give us permission to do so.

Viv: I mean, I just want you to try and get over to Eric that I want to

work with him and I’m keen that this, that we can resolve this.

(Break in audio ___[0:43:15])

Mildred: Okay, thank you very much Eric and both of your individual

sessions. I think that was very useful, as you can see, we’ve

got your two plans up on the wall here, which I think is a good

starting point for discussion. How would you like to take this

forward? Eric, any ideas?

Eric: Well, I suppose, one thing is to look at the overlaps between

the… There seems to be some similarities between what Viv’s

identified and the things that, how I see things happening, so it

might be an idea to just look at the overlaps and ___[0:43:59].

Mildred: Right.

Viv: Yes, I agree. Actually, maybe we just need to go through this

together and decide whether we’re talking on the same lines or

whether we’ve got it different.

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Mildred: It makes it a bit awkward for you, do you maybe want to…

Would it be easier if the two of you got around here and maybe

had a look at the…

Viv: Perhaps if we…

Eric: Yes.

George: Would it be easier if you move over there and we’ll just move

over here, or how would you like to do it?

Mildred: I wondered if you would like to work up the board and we’d all

just do…

George: I’ll do the board. ___[Crosstalk 0:44:33].

Mildred: So…

George: Viv, you start with…

Viv: Okay, well, my first, if I’m taking this as a project, my first thing

I really would want to do is actually sit down with you.

Eric: Right.

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Viv: Which is kind of what we’re doing here, and work out a

timeline, I suppose is quite important and I think you’ve put

timeline here.

Eric: Well we’d have to meet anyway first of all to sort out this

project description anyway.

Viv: Yes, sorry, I kind of have made an assumption that maybe that

would be done. But yes, that would… Do you mind if I add

some stuff up?

Eric: No, go ahead.

Viv: The meeting with you could be to look at, you’re at point one,

and I’m looking around, sort of shorthand a little bit, the

description and the time.

Eric: The time first of all. What we’re trying to do and what the

outcomes are supposed to be.

Viv: Yes and the timing. I suppose we’ve probably covered quite a

lot there, but if I go through mine, because I can see there is

some crossover. Quite specifically, we’d have that one down

there, and that one down there.

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(Break in audio ___[0:45:52])

George: I think that we’ve agreed that we’ll meet probably next week

some time to have a look at the project description. Get that

defined about what we’re trying to do. Have a look at who’s

going to be involved and the timing of it, kind of get a project

sorted out.

Viv: When do you actually want to meet?

Eric: We’re busy just now, but say next week Tuesday, or

something.

Viv: Tuesday would be fine. I think I’m keen to get on with this.

George: An hour, maybe to start with, anyway.

Viv: Yes, whatever you think.

Eric: If we look at our diaries and just see if we can a mutual…

Viv: Okay, I’ll do that.

Eric: The project itself, or are we to cover the project description or

the outcomes to get an idea of what we hope to achieve. What

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happens if it goes wrong? Well, we can look at it more closely,

to meet more regularly on this specific topic, so we can follow

there.

Viv: Actually, we can maybe discuss that at the meeting…

Eric: Like a Plan B sort of thing ___[0:46:52], just take it a stage at a

time, I suppose, really.

Viv: What do you want to do with this one? Do you think it will be

useful if I type this up?

Eric: Yes, I think so. ___[Crosstalk 0:47:04].

Viv: A huge piece of paper.

Eric: No, no, no, it will make it more formal as well.

Viv: Okay then, I’ll…

Eric: If we were to get to.

Viv: Thank you.

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George: Is it a useful process, a way of looking at the issue that you

originally raised, which was project planning a particular

project? Do you find that way of each of you looking at how

you would want to handle it and then comparing the two, a

useful process?

Eric: Yes. As I said, it’s a starting point, so we’ll see how it runs and

at least it’s more focussed this time, we’re on one project and

not looking and trying to do everything and everything, it’s sort

of allowed me to see how Viv’s getting along in terms of her

managing a big project, which is a complex one.

I think that would be useful. It would also help her with getting

in touch with the finance office staff, which is an area she’s not

really had any contact with, because I’ve been trying to deal

with them. Yes, I think that’s okay with me.

Mildred: How does that sound to you?

Viv: It’s been really useful, actually. It’s just been good to have

something tangible to work on and also, timelines, so it’s none

of this, “You will do, you will do,” it’s like it’s moving forward

and hopefully it will be positive.

George: The reason I asked the question is just that communication is

one of the early issues that you were both talking about and it

strikes me that as a process, perhaps that will, pictorially

mapping out anything that you need to communicate with each

other, may just be a way of giving you a common

understanding of what it is you are starting the conversation

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about.

The map will change, the picture may change as you have that

conversation. There’s just a thought there, of that process of

using flipcharts and mapping things out might be helpful to you

in the future. Don’t just think about it being something that’s

used within a mediation, it’s a communications tool.

Mildred: I wonder George, if it might be helpful to go back to the first

thoughts here and just ___[0:49:17], and just look at the initial

things they came up with. This kind of process, do you think it

might be helpful in other areas that you perhaps haven’t

touched upon?

Viv: ___[0:49:31] processes, running through them.

Eric: No, I think it will be difficult to deal with the equality one,

because I don’t think that exists, but, I don’t think that’s an

issue as far as I’m concerned, but certainly communications,

that should help us to get clearer about…

(Break in audio ___[0:49:47])

Viv: Well, we’ve obviously done project plan. I’m hoping that, and I

wouldn’t say equality hasn’t been an issue because, obviously,

it felt an issue for me at the beginning. But the trust equality, it

was kind of a slightly difficult concept I suppose.

I’m hoping they’re going to disappear, given what we’ve just

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done with the project plan because I think if the project plan is

successful, then, whether or not you trust or me or not,

hopefully it’ll be proof that you can trust me and it’ll also give

me proof that I am seen as an equal. I’m hoping they will sort

of disappear of their own accord. I think the team, if we follow

through the reporting to the departmental team about the

projects, then maybe that’s going to disappear.

Some of them will be the proof’s in the pudding, you know, but

the only thing that might be useful to do a similar exercise on is

a general communication one in that, I don’t know quite how

we’d do that, but we’ve built in communications with the project

plan. But there’s more generic things, like understanding how

we both communicate, we obviously have different styles,

maybe we can kind of…

He can learn about when I come barging into his room,

desperate to speak to him, it’s not that I’m being pushy, it’s

actually that I’m desperate to speak to him and I’ve got

something. Likewise maybe I can learn his style, maybe we

just need to learn a wee bit about how we communicate and

___[0:51:28]. The exercise would be quite useful.

Eric: As I said a bit earlier here, I stated at the time that I just want

to go one step at a time, I think.

George: Would you find it useful spending a bit of time now just looking

at that general communications issue?

Eric: Yes, I think as we’re here and now, we might as well, we’ve

started.

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Viv: I’m hoping it’s not going to be major, I think we’ve cracked a lot

this morning. ___[Crosstalk 0:51:51].

George: How would you like to do that? The same sort of project

approach or pick a particular example, or…

Eric: I think it’s probably easier to pick up a particular example,

another one other than a project, say, maybe the team

meetings. That’s obviously all about communications.

George: How do team meetings work at the moment?

Eric: I convene the meetings; I chair them and then the agenda’s

set by me. But in consultation with other people in the team.

That’s the way it runs at the moment.

George: Who else in the team might you be consulting with? I missed

that.

Eric: I do the initial agenda, then I let other people see it before the

meeting and then it’s…

END AUDIO

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