GLOBALFEMINISMS

COMPARATIVECASESTUDIESOFWOMEN’SACTIVISMANDSCHOLARSHIP

SITE:NIGERIA

TranscriptofMairoMandaraInterviewer:ElishaRenne

Location:Maitama,NigeriaDate:January19,2020

UniversityofMichigan

InstituteforResearchonWomenandGender1136LaneHallAnnArbor,MI48109-1290

Tel:(734)764-9537

E-mail:um.gfp@umich.eduWebsite:http://www.umich.edu/~glblfem

©RegentsoftheUniversityofMichigan,2017

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Dr.MairoUsmanMandarawasbornon June5,1965 inBukuru, justoutsideof Jos, thecapitalofPlateauState,Nigeria.ShefirstattendedprimaryschoolinBukuruandcontinuedher post-secondary education at the University of Jos. There she studied medicine,specificallywomen’shealthissues,aninterestthatexpandedtoincludethesocioeconomicissues associated with women’s health such as VVF (vesico-vaginal fistula), e.g., earlymarriageandstuntingduetomalnutrition.Herworkasanobstetric-gynaecologistledtoabroaderfeministconcernwithgirl-childeducation,thefoundingoftheFederationofMuslimWomenofNigeria(FOMWAN),andwiththeNGO,Girl-ChildConcerns.Between2005and2010,Dr.MandarawasaSeniorCountryAdviserinNigeriatotheDavidandLucilePackardFoundation andmore recentlyworkedwith the Bill &Melinda Gates Foundation as theCountryRepresentativetoNigeria.Hercurrentactivistandscholarlyworkreflectherbeliefintheimportanceofworkingwithtraditionalpoliticalandreligiousleadersinencouragingparentsenabletheirdaughterstocompletetheirsecondaryschooleducation.Elisha P. Renne is Professor Emerita in the Departments of Anthropology and ofAfroamerican andAfrican Studies, University ofMichigan-AnnArbor. She has conductedethnographicresearchinNigeria,Ghana,andtheUS.HerinterestsincludeAfricanethnologyandinfectiousdisease;genderandreproductivehealth;andreligionandtheanthropologyoftextiles.SheistheauthorofClothThatDoesNotDie(1995);PopulationandProgressinaYorubaTown(2003);ThePoliticsofPolioinNorthernNigeria(2010);andVeils,Turbans,andIslamic Reform in Northern Nigeria(2018). She has also edited the volume, Veiling inAfrica(2013),has co-edited the volume, TextileAscendancies: Aesthetics, Production, andTrade in Northern Nigeria(2020)and has published in the journals Africa, AmericanAnthropologist,CSSH,IslamicAfrica,JRAI,RES,andTextileHistory.Herrecentstudy,DeathandtheTextileIndustryinNigeria,oftheconsequencesoftextilemillclosuresinKaduna,NorthernNigeria,includedinterviewswith105widowsandwillbepublishedinNovember2020.

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ElishaRenne(ER):ThisinterviewiswithDr.MairoMandaraandweareinMaitama,FederalCapitalTerritoryofNigeria.Andtheyearis2020,dayis19thJanuary.Sopleasestateyournameandtellmehowyouwanttobetitled.MairoMandara(MM):MynameisDr.MairoUsmanMandara.It’sokaytocallmeMairo.ER:Okay,thankyou,Mairo.YoucancallmeElisha.MM:Okay,great.ER:We’djustliketostartwithsomegeneralinformationaboutyourbackground.YouwereborninPlateauState,1howyoucametothinkaboutwhatyouwantedtodowithyourlife,justsomeearlyexperiences.MM:SoIwasborninthesuburbofJos,thecapitalofPlateauStateinNigeria,andattendedapublicschoolinBukuru,2whereIfinishedandthenwenttoagirls’highschoolinGindiri,3Plateau State, where I graduated from secondary school and then proceeded to theUniversity of Jos,4 to studymedicine and then immediately proceeded toAhmaduBelloUniversity5 where I did my fellowship at theWest African College of Surgeons,6 and Ibecameanobstetrician/gynecologist.Andso,thestorystarted.

1 PlateauStateislocatedinthecenterofNigeria.ItismadeuniquebytheelevatedhillsthatsurroundJosPlateau,itscapital,andiscelebratedasthe“TheHomeofPeaceandTourism.”(“PlateauState.Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plateau_State)2BukuruisacitylocatedontheJosPlateauinNigeriaandistheheadquartersofJosSouthLocalGovernmentArea.(“Bukuru.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukuru)3GindiriisalsoasmallcitylocatedinPlateauStatewithatropicalsavanna-likeenvironmentatanelevationof300meters.(“Gindiri,PlateauState,Nigeria.”Mindmat.org.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://www.mindat.org/feature-11075898.html)4TheUniversityofJos,alsoknownasUnijos,isaFederalUniversityinJos,PlateauState.Itsstudentbodyisaround14,000students,andtheuniversitywasestablishedin1975.(“UniversityofJos.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Jos)5AhmaduBelloUniversity(ABU)isaresearchuniversityinZaria,KadunaState,Nigeria.Theuniversitywasestablishedin1962astheUniversityofNorthernNigeriaandwasthennamedafterAhmaduBello,thefirstpremierofNorthernNigeria.("HistoryofAhmaduBelloUniversity."AhmaduBelloUniversity.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://www.abu.edu.ng/history/#:~:text=Ahmadu%20Bello%20University-,Ahmadu%20Bello%20University,of%20Basic%20Studies%20in%20Funtua.) 6 TheWestAfricanCollegeofSurgeonsisaprofessionalassociationthatchampionseducation,training,examinationsandresearchonsurgeryinAfrica.Itwasestablishedin1960andisthefirstschooltointroducesubspecialtytrainingintheregion.(WestAfricanCollegeofSurgeons.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_College_of_Surgeons)

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ButgrowingupasayounggirlinBukuru,aMuslimgirlgrowingupamongothers,I’dalwayswantedtobeapilot.Ihadalotofobsessionwiththesky,withthemoon,butunfortunatelywhenIfinishedsecondaryschool,girlsatthattimewerenottakenintotheNigerianPilots’School,soIendedupgettingadmissiontoeitherengineeringormedicine,soIhadtotakeatoughchoicebetweenengineeringandmedicine,andIthinkbecauseatthattimemymomwassick,soIdecidedtogointomedicine.So,it’spurelybyaccident,butmyfirstchoicewastobeapilot.Otherthanthat,tobeanengineer.ButI’msogladIturnedouttobeadoctorbecausethenI’mabletoworkwithhumansandIthinkthat’swheremystrengthlies.ER:Yes,Iagree;Ithinkso.So,youweren’tthinkingofbeingadoctorwhenyoufirststartedyoureducationalcareer.OnceyoustartedtakingclassesatUniversityofJosin medical school, was there a specialty that interested you in particular?MM:Thefirstthreeyearswereuneventful—thepreclinicalyears.Andquitehonestly,Iwasbusy playing basketball for the school tournament and stuff. Those were the mostinterestingthingsIcanrememberinthefirstthreeyears—playingbasketballacrosstheuniversityandinter-universitysports.Butby the timeIgot to the fourthyear—whenwestartedgoing to theclinic,and Iwasconfrontedwithrealitiesofhealth—Igot interested inhealth issues thathadtodowithsocialinequityanddiseasesthataffecttheverypoor.IthinkthisstemmedfromthefactthatsinceIwasastudent,IhadbeeninstudentunionandintheuniversityIwasinthestudentunionandIspentquitealotofmytimeasaMuslimstudentactivistandsothereforeIhadaverystrong—andIstilldohaveastrong—opinionaboutissuesaboutsocialjusticeandsocialinequity.So, what really struckme, and it wasmy undergraduate project, was on vesicovaginalfistulae.7Iwasshockedtoseeyounggirlsthatsmelledlikeurine.Theyweremadeoutcasts,theywererejectedbytheirparents,bytheirhusbands,eventhehusbandwhogot thempregnant,asaresultofwhich,theygotvesicovaginalfistulae,weredivorced.Inmostcases,itwasonly theirmotherswhostoodby them.Thatreally interestedme,and Iwasveryupset,soIusedit—Istudiedvesicovaginalfistulaformyundergraduateresearch.Sothatsetthestageformeactuallytobeanobstetrician/gynecologist.

7 VVF,orvesicovaginalfistula,isanabnormaltractconnectingthebladderandthevaginathatallowsconstantinvoluntaryentryofurineintothevagina.Itcanoccurasaresultofrape,especiallymoreviolentrape.(“Vesicovaginalfistula.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly15,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesicovaginal_fistula)

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SowhenIfinished,Ithencontinuedtodoresidencyinobstetricsandgynecology,andevenasaresidentIwasteachingsocialobstetricsandgynecologyanditwassomethingthatI’vegrowntoworkinandiswhyI’mmoreevengroundedinglobalhealththanyouwouldinobstetricsandgynecologybecauseIalwayslookatthelinkbetweensocial justice/socialinequity, women’s rights, women’s ability to make decisions for themselves, and theirhealth and how that ultimately impacts not just in their health but sometimes decideswhethertheyliveortheydie,andwhethertheirchildrenliveordie.Sothat’swhatreallysparkedmyinterestinobstetricsandgynecology.AndasIworkedasanobstetrician/gynecologist,training,andsoyouwouldseethatformypostgraduateresidencyintheWestAfricanCollegeofSurgeons,myresearchwasbasedonfemalegenitalmutilation—againsocialgynecology.IlookedatthedemographyofwomenwhohadthevesicovaginalfistulaeinZaria,8lookedatthesocialcontext,thetypes,andsoonandsoforth.Andsoagain,socialgynecology.Aftergraduating,IrealizedthatasadoctorIwastreatingonepatientatatime.AndquitefranklyIwasimpatienttotreatonepersonata time. So, Imoved quite significantly into public health. So that even as Iworked as agynecologist,Ispentalotoftime—mostofmyweekendswereinvillages—tryingtomakesuregirlsdon’tgetvesicovaginal fistulaeandcometome. Womenareeducatedaroundfemalegenitalmutilation,andtheydon’tgetit.Linkedtomyactualundergraduatestudieswheregirlshadvesicovaginalfistulae—Ilookedatthedifferencesbetweengirlsthathadvesicovaginalfistulaeandthosethatdidn’t;andtherewereverysignificantdifferences.Thosethathaditwereusuallyshort-statured,lessthan1.5,verypoorfamilybackground,verydifficulttogettoaclinic,butsignificantlyaschildrentheywereshortfortheirageandgeneticgroup,becausetheyhadstunting,andtheyhadmalnutrition.Thegirlsalsohadcephalo-pelvicdisproportion.So,asIgrewoldertopracticeobstetrics,thesearethekindsofissuesIworkedon.Butitjustdawnedonmethat—youknowwhat—andIkeepreflectingonmyselfandmyotherfriendsthatgrewupwithme,girlsthatIknewthatIgrewupwiththathadmaternalmortalityearlyintheirlives,thathavesomanychildrendying,thathavechildrenwithmalnutrition,andwhydon’tI?Andwegrewuptogether,someoftheparentswerealittlericherthanmydad,ortheywereatthesamelevelwithmydad,andwhyisitthatIhavetheopportunitytobewhoIam,andtheydidn’t?Andformetherewasonlyonesingledenominator—myfathersawthesenseingettingmeeducatedandtheydidn’t.AndsothereforeI’vespentnowasignificantpartofmylife—andIstilldo—that’swhereIputmostofmyenergytodate.AndIthinkthat’sthe

8 ZariaisalargecityinKadunaStateinnorthernNigeriaandisaLocalGovernmentArea,aswell.ItwasoneoftheoriginalsevenHausacity-statesandcurrentlyhousesAhmaduBelloUniversity,thelargestuniversityinNigeria.(“Zaria.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria)

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worthiestinvestment:toensurethateverygirlinAfricaatleastattendssecondaryschooleducation.ER:Sothat’syourtrajectoryofyourcareer,ithassortoffollowedthatunderstandingorexpandedknowledgeabouteducationalexperiencebeingsocriticalforgirls.So,whathaveyoudone,whatorganizationshaveyoubeeninvolvedwithorsponsored,orinitiated,thatrelatetotheimportanceofgirlchildeducation?MM:So,asItoldyou,sinceIwasastudent,Iwaspartofthestudentmovement,soIwaspartoftheMuslimStudentSocietyofNigeria.9AndwhenwegraduatedwecalleditMuslimSistersOrganization,whicharejustlikeuniversitygraduateyoungMuslimwomenwhoareverypassionateandactivistinnature.AndfromthereweformedtheFederationofMuslimWomen Association in Nigeria10 in 1985. And one of the key pillars—and the mostsignificantpillarofwhatFOMWANdoes—isensuringgirlsareeducated.ThereafterIalsostarted an organization called Girl Child Concerns,11 with my very good sister BilkisuYusuf,12mayhersoulrestinpeace.AndwestartedsupportinggirlsfromZaria,wherewelived,togotosecondaryschool.Andwewereparticularlylookingforgirlsthatwerefromvery disadvantaged families who would not go to school without our efforts, and wesupportedthem.And,Alhamdulillah,oneisnowalecturerinCollegeofEducation,theotheris a pharmacist of the first two. And we have supported over 500 girls to completesecondaryschool.Andinthelastcohortwehaveonethatisamedicalstudentwetookfrom

9 TheMuslimStudentsSocietyofNigeriawasfoundedin1954byAbdurrahamanSahid,BabsFafunwa,TajudeenAromashodun,andLateefAdegbiteinLagos.("MuslimStudentSocietyofNigeria.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Students_Society_of_Nigeria) 10 TheFederationofMuslimWomen’sAssociationsinNigeria(FOMWAN)isanNGOinNigerialargelyfundedbyGACanada,DFID,UNICEF,andWHO.Theorganizationfocusesonadvocacy,civilrights,education,gender,health,andyouth.Theirmostpressingconcernsliewiththeeducationofyounggirlsandwomen.(“TheFederationofMuslimWomen’sAssociationsinNigeria(FOMWAN).”DevelopmentAid.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://www.developmentaid.org/#!/organizations/view/62287/the-federation-of-muslim-womens-associations-in-nigeria-fomwan) 11 GirlChildConcerns(GCC)isaregisterednon-profitorganizationwhosefocuscentersonelevatingthelivesofyouth,particularlygirls,throughimprovedaccesstoeducationandopportunities.(“GirlChildConcerns.”GirlChildConcerns.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://www.developmentaid.org/#!/organizations/view/62287/the-federation-of-muslim-womens-associations-in-nigeria-fomwan) 12 BilkisuYusufwasaNigerianjournalist,columnist,andeditorformajornewspapersinAbuja,Kano,andKaduna.Sheisfamousforbeingthefirstwomantodirectanationalnewspaperoperation.ShewasaHausa,Muslim,feminist,andastrongadvocateforaninterfaithsociety.ShealsoadvisedtheNigerianPresidentonInternationalAffairsandwasafounderofseveralNGOs,namelyWomeninNigeria(WIN)andFederationofMuslimWomen’sAssociation(FOMWAN).Shewaskilledin2015duringtheMinaStampedewhileonHajinMecca,SaudiArabia.(“BilkisuYusuf.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilkisu_Yusuf)

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theIDPcamp13—BokoHaramIDPcamp—isamedicalstudent.WehavefourinUniversityofNotreDameintheUS.Andwehaveothersinverymanyuniversitiesstudying.Butthekeytomyunderstanding,inmylaterlife,stemsfromabookIreadasachild.It’scalledMuslimWoman,Ithink,byMaryamJameelah.14MaryamJameelahwasanAmericanwomanwhomarriedaPakistani and shewrote thatbook.And thereafter Iwasheavilyinfluenced by the work of Aisha Lemu,15 the mentorship of Bilkisu Yusuf, and thementorshipofHassanAl-Turabi.16HiswritingshadsignificantimpactonhowIthinkandwhat I do.And so,workinganda lot ofmy sistershere in the feministmovement—theAfricanfeministmovement—inNigeria.So,it’samixoflotsandlotsofinfluencethathasshapedwhatIdo.Butthebottomlineisthebeliefthateducationisthekey.ER:Thisprojectthatwe’retakingpartofrightnowiscalledGlobalFeminisms,soI’mjustwonderinghowyouunderstandthetermfeminism?Howdoyouthinkaboutit?MM:Thereisaquote—Ishouldhavewornthatt-shirtforthisinterview!There’saquotethatreallydefineswhat—Idon’tknowwhomadethatstatement.Butitreallydefinesmyunderstandingoffeminism:formefeminismisjusttheradicalideathatwomenarehuman.So,forme,feminismistherightofawomantoexpressherself,primarilyasahumanbeing,andthenwithsomeadditional,ifyoulike,likesaltandpepper—ofbeingafemale.So,forme,it’stheabilitytodefinewhoIam,tochartmydestiny,andtolivetothefullestpotentialthatGodhasgivenme.So—andinthatIlookatfeminismwithinthemilieuthatIfindmyself

13 IDPisanacronymforInternallyDisplacedPersons(IDP)camps.TheUNHCRdefinesthisgroupasrefugeeswhohavenotcrossedabordertofindsafetyandremainundertheprotectionoftheirgovernment,evenifthatgovernmentisthereasonfortheirdisplacement.(“InternallyDisplacedPeople.”UNHCR.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/internally-displaced-people.html)14KnownforherwritingsabouttheWest,MaryamJameelahwasanAmerican-PakistaniauthorofoverthirtybooksonIslamiccultureandhistoryandwasastrongvoiceforconservativeandfundamentalistIslam.ShewasbornMargretMarcustoanon-observantJewishfamilyandexploredJudaismandotherreligionsbeforeconvertingtoIslamin1961andemigratingtoPakistanwhereshemarriedMuhammadYusufKhan,aleaderintheJamaat-e-Islamipoliticalparty.(“MaryamJameelah.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Jameelah)15AishaLemuwasaBritishauthorandreligiouseducatorwhoconvertedtoIslamin1961andlivedmostofherlifeinNigeria.(“AsihaLemu.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha_Lemu)16HassanAl-TurabiwasaSudaneseIslamistpoliticianwhoplayedacriticalroleinthesuccessofthe1989coupthatbroughtOmarAl-Bashirtopower.HehasbeenregardedasoneofthemostinfluentialfiguresinSudanesepoliticsastheleaderoftheNationalIslamicFront(NIF),apoliticalmovementthatheldvastpoliticalpowerwithoutsignificantpopularityamongSudanesevoters.However,Turabiremainshighlycontroversialandreportedlycommittedseveralhumanrightsabuses,suchassummaryexecutions,arbitrarydetentions,denialsoffreedomsofspeech,assemblyandreligion,andviolationsofwarrules,especiallyinsouthernSudan.(“HassanAl-Turabi.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Al-Turabi)

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isaboutrespectformen,isaboutcomplementaritywithmen,isaboutloveandsharingwithmysisters,isaboutmycoredutyofensuringthatanywomanandgirlIcomeacrossIgiveahelpinghandtotakethenextstep.So,formethisisfeminismandwhatisnotfeminismformeisfightingmen.IbelievethatmenareanintegralpartoffeminismandanybodywhobelievesthatwomenareprimarilyhumanbeingsIthinkisafeministbutwiththeadditionthatthepersonbehavesinthatsense—notjustsayitbutbehavesinthatsense.ER:That’sareallyinterestingobservation,becauseIthinktomefeminismgloballyhas many different interpretations, and I think what you’re talking about is aparticularNigerianinterpretation.MM: I think it’s anAfricanwomen’s feminist interpretation.And I’mpart of theAfricanwomen’s feministmovement, and so this is our interpretation ofwhat feminism is, fullpotentialofwomen,womenhavingwhattheyneedtocharttheirpath,beingsupportedbymen,respectingmenandactuallygivingmentheopportunitytoalsocharttheirlives.ER:Okay.Ithinkthat’sverygood.So,thenyouconsideryourselfafeminist.MM:Absolutely.ER:Okay.So,hasbeingafeministaffectedyourworkintermsofgirlchildeducationorinotherwaysperhapstoo?MM:Yes,ithas.Ithasbecausemybeingafeministopenedupopportunitiesformetomeetmysistersacrosstheworld.IrememberwhenIwenttotheBeijingConference,17 itwasbeautiful.Iwassoyoung,Iwasstillaresidentinobstetricsandgynecology,andImetthisamazingnumberofwomenthatarereallystruggling.Andlisteningtotheirstoriesgivesyouwisdom,listeningtothestoriesgivesyouhope,andlisteningtothestoriesgivesyouwhatyouneedtokeeppushing.But importantly listeningtothestorieshelpsyoushapeyourownstory.Butit’snotalloftheirstorythatistrueforyou.I’vebeenmarried34years.Sothat’sasignificantportionofmystory.

17 TheFourthWorldConferenceonWomeninBeijingin1995wasorganizedbytheUnitedNationswithmorethan17,000participants.Itmarkedaturningpointforglobalgenderequalitymovementsbyputtingforthawidelyaccepted12-platformagenda,theBeijingPlatformforAction,highlightingcriticalareas.Thisconferencewasfollowedbyaseriesoffive-yearreviewstoassessimplementationofthisagenda.(“WorldConferencesonWomen.”UNWomen.AccessedJuly15,2020.https://www.unwomen.org/en/how-we-work/intergovernmental-support/world-conferences-on-women)

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Ihavechildrenandmychildrenareabsolutelyfeministintheirnature.Myboysarefeminist,my son—I’m so proud of him;my son has a daughter and his daughter’s surname is acombinationofhiswife’ssurnameandhissurname.So,they’resharingtheownershipofthechild,andtheresponsibilityof thechild. This is thecontextofAfricanfeminism—isabout family, is about husband, is about your children, is about your sisters, yourgrandmother—andIthinkwhathasshapedthatisthatit’sabitdifficulttobeindividualisticinAfrica.So,we’reacommunity.Whateveryoudo,ifyoureallywanttosucceedhastobecommunity-based,hastobecontextuallybased,andhasalotofrespectforthevaluesandculture.And I’ll tell you what we did in FOMWAN, for example. FOMWAN, by the way, is theFederationofMuslimWomenAssociationinNigeria. InFOMWAN,webelievethateverywomanisprimarilyahumanbeing.Andintryingtogeteverygirltobeeducated,weworkedontheprincipleofIslamthatsays,“wemustseekforknowledgefromcradletograve.”Sotherefore, everywoman has to keep seeking for knowledge from cradle to grave! Thatmeansyoudon’tfinishatafirstdegree,oraseconddegree,orevenaPh.D.!Foraslongasyou have the ability you just keep pursuing. But in pushing, in asking for that, and inadvocating for that and in demanding for that, we chose asMuslimwomen to actuallybehavelikeMuslimwomen.TodresslikeMuslimwomen,tobehavelikeMuslimwomen,toupholdthevaluesofwhatMuslimshouldbe.BecausewebelievethateveryactionItakeasaperson,asMairo,thewayIdressasMairo,thewayIgoout,thewayIinteractwithpeople, isnotgoing toaffectmealone. It’sgoing todeterminewhether1000girlsgo toschoolordon’t.Sotherefore,IchoosetobehaveandtodressandtobehavelikeaMuslimwomanbecauseIknowforeverybehavior,Idoathousandormoregirlsgettogotoschool.AndforeverymisbehaviorIdo—that’snotconformingtothesocialnorm—itgets1000childrenormoredon’tgotoschool. Isthatarestrictiononmypart? No—it’sachoiceImake,it’sachoiceIdeliberatelymake.ER:Okay.Youknow,alsointheKoranitspeaksaboutmarriage.Ijustwonder—thatmaybesomethingthatwouldbeaboneofcontentionwithsomeWesternfeministsabouttheissueofpolygamy.Ijustwonderifyoucouldjust…MM:So,asIsaid,youknow,onethingthatasIgrewupandworkedgloballyandasImeetdifferent people, there’s something that comes along with being “educated” or being“modern”—wethinkourvaluesaretheultimate.Ithinkthat’sanarrogancethatcomeswitheducation.Thatyouthinkonewaydoesn’tmeaneverybodyshouldthinkthesamewayasyou.WhatiscrucialisthefreedomtochoosewhatIwanttobe.IfWesternfeministshaveaview,theyaremysisters.Iabsolutelyrespectthem.Butthatdoesn’tmeanIshouldholdtheirviews.I’manAfricanwomanandI’mchoosingtobeanAfricanwoman.SothereforeI‘mnotgoingtoforcemyviewsonthem,neithercantheythinktheycanforcetheirviews

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onme.Andthat’sthepowerofbeinghuman—theabilitytochoose,andtheabilitytosay,“No,Idisagree.Thisiswhereweagree,andthisiswherewepartways,butthatdoesn’tmakeusanylesssistersinthestruggletobewomen.”Sothat’sachoice.ER:Verywellstated.MM:That’s theirs, and I respect it, and so therefore I expect everyWestern feminist torespectmyopinion.ER: Iagree.So,youmentionedFOMWANandGCC—theGirlChild Initiative—couldyou say: are thereanyexpectations; theseorganizations, FOMWANhasbeenheresince1985,andGCCstartedwhen?MM:WestartedGirlChildConcernsunofficiallyaround1998,butweregisteredin2003.Since2003we’vebeenworkingasanorganizationbasicallysupportinggirlstohavethehighesteducationalattainment irrespectiveof financialconstraint.Sothat’swhatwedo,andbasicallywelookatthedataforgirls’education,particularlyintheNorthofNigeriawhere the data is worst—the statistics is worst—and we go, based on the data fromgovernment,wegotovillageswheregirlshardlygotoschoolandwefishoutgirlsthataresmartfromprimaryschoolandwesupportthemtofinishsecondaryschool.Anditdoestwothings:1)itgivesthemanopportunitytogotoschoolandfinishsecondaryschool;andthensecondlyitactuallykeepsthemawayfrommarriagetilltheyareabout19.Becauseifthesegirlsarenotinschoolquiteanumberofthemwillbemarriedandwillhavetheirfirstchildbeforetheageof15.So,bykeepingtheminschoolweactuallygetthemeducatedandwealsodelaytheageofmarriageforthesegirls.Byabout6years.ER:Ihaveaquestionaboutgoingtoschool.Isitintheircommunities?Someofthemare fromsmall,ruralcommunities;maybetheydon’thavesecondaryschools,andhowdoyoumanagethat?MM:So,whatwedois...actuallymostofourstudentsweputtheminboardingschool.So,wescoutforboardingschools,andwepayforthetuitionandwetakethemtoboardingschool,buywhattheyneed,andthesameboardingschools,duringholidayswetransportthembacktotheirparents.ER:Okay.AndI’vebeenreadingsomeHausanovels18thatareaboutthisveryissue—aboutgirleducationandpressurefrom,especiallyparents—let’sjustsayparents—

18 HausaisoneofsixmajorethnicgroupsinNigeria.TheyareprimarilylocatedinbothnorthernandsouthernNigeriaandarethelargestethnicgroupinSub-SaharanAfrica.MostHausaspeakHausaand

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thatagirlshouldmarry.Somebodyapproachesthemandsayswewanttomarryyourdaughter.Wecandoeverythingforher;pleasewewanttomarryyourdaughter.So,thentheparentsputpressureonthedaughtertoleaveschool.Idon’tknowifthisisstillanissue,orifsomeofthegirlsyou’vebeenhelpingarefacingthischallenge.MM:Yeah,we’vehad—we’veactuallyhadgirlsunderourcarethathavehadthatchallenge.Theparentswantingtotakethemoutofschool—andwe’vehadonethattheparentsreallyinsistedontakingheroutofschool--bythetimeshefinishedsecondaryschoolwithus,shehadhersecondchild.Becausewealsorefusedtolethergo.So…butnowwearewiser,andwhatwedowithparentsnowis thatwesignacontract.So,wesignacontractwiththeparentsundertheleadershipofthevillagehead.Sohesignsasaguarantorthatonceagirlisunderourscholarship,shemaynotbetaken—shemustnotbetakenoutofschoolformarriageuntilshefinishessecondaryschool,whichtakeshertoage19or18.Andthenifthefatherremovesherthenhepaysuseverydollarwespentonher,whichweknowhecan’t,sothat’sit.We’vehadafewparentswhoattempted,andthevillageheadinsiststhattheypaiduseverydollarwehadeverspentonher,andthefathergaveup,andshefinishedsecondaryschool.Soyes,thisisreal.Andgirlsfaceit.Twoyearsago,wehadagirlrunawayduringholidayfromherparentsandshecameandlivedwithmefortwoweeks.Andtheydidn’tknowwhereshewasuntilwefinishedthenegotiationsbeforeweletthemknowthatshewaswithme,becausetheywantedtomarryher,andshedidnotwanttomarry.So,intheendshewon.Shecontinuedgoingtoschool.Inarespectfulwayandwiththesupportfromtheleaders,theyalsoseeus.Youseethegoodthingaboutbuildingconfidenceistheyarenotworriedwhentheycometomyhouse.Whentheparentsseethatthegirlsarewithme,they’renotworriedbecausetheyknowthatIsharethesameculturalvalues,thesamerespectandsoonandsoforth.AndthatI’mnotgoingtotradetheirdaughters.Soultimatelythe girl won, and she finished secondary school. Coincidentally, that girl was even aChristian girl. [ER: I was just going to ask you]. Yeah, she was a Christian girl fromsouthernKaduna.19ER:BecauseyougrewupintheJosareawithmanyChristians.So,dotheyalsohaveaproblemwithgirlsmarryingearly?MM:Yes,theydo.Infact,insomeofthoseculturestheyevenhavenotjustthegirlsbeingforcedtomarry,thegirlsactuallyabscondwiththeboy.Togoandmarrythemselvesoff.So,

practiceIslam.(“CultureofNigeria.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly15,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Nigeria#Yoruba_Culture)19Kadunaisastateinnorth-westernNigeriaandborderstheKadunaRiver.(“Kaduna.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly15,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaduna)

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youfinda15-year-oldgirlabscondingwithan18-or20-yearoldboyandthat’sit.Sothat’salsocommon.That’salsofound.ER:It’sinteresting—therewasastoryintheDailyTrust—Ithinkitwaslastweek;itwasa full-pagearticleaboutthestates inNigeriathathave low-levelsofgirl-childeducation,andalotofthemwereintheNorth.Notall,butmost.MM:MostofthemareintheNorthexceptoneortwostatesintheSouth.Andquitefranklyit’svery,very,veryworrying.Andthat’swhyinthisworkthatwe’vejuststartedlastyeararoundadvocacyforkeepinggirlsinschoolwe’restartingamovementinAfricatoensureevery girl finishes secondary school education. And in this movement, we’re workingwith—as the key actors driving this—we’re working to cultivate traditional religiousleadersasdrivers.Andthereasonforthatisthatforyears,foryears,feminists,activists,educators,internationaldevelopmentpartners,actors,governors,governments,donors—we’ve allworked and tried topush girls’ education andwe’ve failed.We’vemade somesuccessbutit’snotcommensuratetotheeffort.Andtheamountofmoneythatisspent.So,myhypothesisisthatIthinkwefailedbecausewefailedtorealizethatwereallyarenotasinfluentialaswethinkweare.Nowlookback,Elisha,andsee:thesegirlsthatdon’tgotoschoolinAfricadonotdecidethattheydonotwanttogotoschoolbythemselves.Thedecisionisbeingmadebytheirparentsorcaregivers.Thecaregiversthinkthegirlsshouldnotgotoschool.Nowthesecaregiversthemselvesdonothaveaneducation,sowhathappens?Wegoanddopolicies,weputlaws,wecreateschools,andwesaygirlsgotoschool,andthegirlshavenosay,andtheparentshaveeverysay.NowthekeyformeinensuringeverygirlinAfricagoestoschoolisactuallyinfluencingthoseparentstobeabletodecidebythemselvesthattheirchildrenareworthgoingtoschool.Andineverycommunity,westillhavethisoddgirl—regardlessofhowbadtheschool—youseethatoneoddgirlthattravels12miles,10miles,togotoschoolandcomesback.Whatisgoingintheheadofthatoneparent?Whoriskseverythingtoputhisorherdaughterthroughschool?So,thisisthemindsetweneedtobringpeopleto.Butthetruthis,inAfricaalotoftheparentsthathavenoeducationthemselvesthatmakethesedecisionsdonottrustgovernment.Politicianshavefailedthem.Evenmilitaryrulershavefailedthem.Theydonothaveanybenefitofgovernment.Theydon’thaveelectricity,theydon’t have water, they don’t have health—they actually have nothing that they arebenefitingfromgovernment,sotheydonottrustgovernment. Andforpoliticians—theyseepoliticianscyclicallyeveryfouryears,sowhyshouldtheytrustpoliticians?Theydon’ttrustdevelopmentactorsbecausewego to thevillageswith4-wheeldrive,withbottledwateratthebackofourcar,andwespeaksomeforeignlanguage,andwesitaroundthem,andwetellthem,“Youdothis,youdothis.Thisiswrong,thisisright.”Wekindoftakeagod-positionandprescribe.Theyclap.Usuallywegowithsomegoodies;theyjoinus,we

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eatthebiscuitsandtaketheCoca-Cola,theytellusexactlywhatwewanttohearandwe’rehappyandwegoaway.Butifyoulook,thesepeoplehavetheirowngovernmentthattheytrust, they have their informal policies that they believe in, their government are theirtraditionalleaders,becausewhentheygivebirth,it’sthetraditionalleaderthatisthere;whentheirchilddies,it’sthetraditionalleaderthatisthere;whentheyhaveamarriage,it’satraditionalleaderthathelpsthembuyrice;ifthere’sacrisisinthefamily,it’satraditionalleaderthatsettlesthecrisis.Everythingtheyneedtheycanruntothetraditionalleader—it’sa5-minutewalk!So,theytrusttheirtraditionalleaders;forthem,theyaregovernment.And they also have their own policy. The policy is their religious leaders. When theirreligiousleaderssaythis,theybelieveinit.So,theirreligiousleaders:lookatthecaseofpolio. You worked a lot on polio. There was progress on polio; one religious leaderquestionedthesideeffectsofpolioandpolioimmunizationwentdown.Andeveryeffortbygovernment toundo that failed.Until the same religious leaders and traditional leaderscametotheSultanofSokoto20andhisteamandeverythingturnedaround.So,thisyoucouldseeheretheexampleofthepowerofthoseER:Okay,soI’mjustwonderinginthesmallvillage—itmaybeChristianandthere’sachurchleaderorit’sMuslimandthere’sanImaminamosque—howwouldtheygoaboutconvincingparentsthatit’simportanttoeducateyourdaughters?MM:So,thefirstthingis:thoseofusthataremessengershavetorethinkhowwedothings.Everything has to be—in my opinion—everything has to be within their prism. For achange,wetakea totalbackstage.For thechurch leader:Whatdoes theBiblesayabouteducation?Andwhatisinthereforhimifthecongregationareeducated?FortheImam,whatdoesIslamsayabouteducation?Andwhatdotheystandtogainbyhavingwomeneducated?Fortheparents,IcantellyouanexampleofwhatIdidinZariainavillageinZaria.Wewentforanadvocacydiscussionaroundgirls’educationandwhatdidIdo?IwentindressedlikeanyoneofthemwithmyhijabandeverythingandIdrovemyowncaranditwasa4-wheeldriveandIparkeditandIspoketothewomenintheir languageandIdiscussed nuances of what they talk about everyday around the last wedding, aroundchildbirth.WediscussedwomentalkandthenItoldthemwhoIwasandthatIwasadoctor,andthatIameducatedandthatbecauseI’meducated,IhavethisbeautifulcarandIcantakemymomforHajjandIcanrefurnishmymom’sroom,Icanredomydad’sroof,andIdohavemyownhouse,andtheyallsatupandyoucouldseetheglowintheireyes.Every

20 TheSultanofSokotoisconsideredaspiritualleaderintheMuslimcommunityofNigeriaandcarriessignificantweightwithFulaniandHausapeoplefromnorthernNigeria.AftertheendofBritishrule,thisposthasbecomelargelyceremonial.(“ListofSultansofSokoto.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly21,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sultans_of_Sokoto)

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oneofthemwantedtheirdaughtertobelikeme.AndItoldthemthatit’spossible.Alltheyneed todo isbedetermined that theyaregoing toeducate theirdaughters,whatever ittakes.Itmightmeanthatthemotherhastostartsellingzobo,21itmightbethatthemotherhastostartsellingsalt,butthemotherhastodosomething,andthefatheralsohastodosomething.So,youseeinthatcaseI’mnottellingthemthisisright,orthisiswrong,I’mtelling themthebenefit for them. Andthebenefit for theirchildren.But isalsoexcitingwhenItellthemthatorwhenteachersorothersthatweworkwithtellthemthat“Youknowwhat,andyourdaughterisabletoreadtheBiblebyherselfandknowwhatGodwantshertodo.AndyourdaughterreadtheKoran,notjustinArabic,butinEnglish,sothatsheseesexactlywhatgodistellinghertodoorinHausa.”Soultimatelyyougettheworldandyougetthehereafter.Thatgetsthemsitting! CanyouimaginethecontrastifIcomeandtellthem, “Ohguysareuneducated,you’re ignorant,you’renotrespectingyourgirls.You’reverybackward.”They’llkickmeoutofthevillage.So,Ithinkthiscomesfromtwothingsinmyopinion.First,respectforthepeoplewearetryingtoserve,andtherefore,beingabletoseethingsfromtheirperspectivewithrespect.Andthensecondlysteppingoutandgettingoutofourarroganceofthinkingwewilltellpeoplewhattodo.Wehelpthemunderstandwhatthesituationis,andtheywillfindtheirsolutions.Andquite franklyIgot intothisunderstandingofhowarrogantwesometimescouldbe.When I did research on female genitalmutilation, and I no longer call it female genitalmutilation,bytheway,Icallitfemalegenitalcutting,asascientistmyjobistodescribeit,butnottobejudgmental.Andso,it’sthereforefemalegenitalcutting.IwasworkingasaprincipalresearcherforWHOonfemalegenitalmutilationandalso,I—ataboutthesametimeIwasworkingasaleadresearcheronfemalegenitalmutilationworkthatwasdoneinNigeria.AndIwenttoavillageintheSouthwest;Southwestisaplacewherefemalegenitalcuttingwasveryprevalentand, in thisvillage,weaskedwhat the causewas,whywerepeople doing female genital cutting. And they told us that a long time ago they had aneonatalmortality—alotoftheirbabiesweredyingafterbirth,forwhateverreason.Andtheywent—theydidn’tknowwhatwashappening,butsomanykidsweredyingsotheywent to theoracle.Theoracle told thembecause theheadof thebabyondeliveryweretouchingtheclitorisofthewoman—children-lovingAfricans;whatdotheydo?Chopofftheclitorissothatthebabycansurvive.Thisisanaltruisticthingthatanysensiblehumanbeingwill do. Nowwithwhatwe’ve learnedwith science is that the childrenwere not dyingbecauseoftouchingtheclitoris,soourjobistotellthem,toshowthatthesebabiesdon’tdiebecausetheheadtouchedtheclitoris,andifwedothat,andiftheyseethatthat’snotit,

21 Zobo,alsoknownaszoborado,isalocallysourcednon-alcoholicbeveragefromNigeria.Itismadefromdriedroselleleaves,water,garlic,ginger,andpineapple,andisusedtostabilizebloodpressure,reducecholesterol,andreducestress.(“Zobo.”TasteAtlas.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://www.tasteatlas.com/zobo)

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they’ll leavetheclitorisalone.Andwhatdidwedo;wewentandsaid,“Oh,youguysarebarbaric,youdon’twomentoenjoytheirsexualencounter,you’redemeaningwomen,dada da da,” and they look at us and they think we’re idiots. So, while we think they’reuneducated,theythinkwe’reidiots.We’renotevenhavingaconversation.FromthedayIlearnedthat,Iwashumbled.Iwascomingfromaveryyoung,activistbackground;women’srights,dadada,andthenIwassohumbledbythetimewepublishedthatIwentbacktointerviewNigeriandoctorstoseehowtheythink,whatapriorityfemalegenitalcuttingis,inthemedicalhierarchyofthingsthatarekillingwomen,thatarekillingchildren,thatarekillingbabies.Itwassoinsignificant—waybehind.IthenlookedatmyselfandIsaidokay,I’vedonethiscelebratedwork,publishedinthededicatedjournalandrecognizedbutisthiswhere Iwant to spendmyenergy? I said,no, Iprobablywant to spend itoneducation.BecausewitheducationIthinkyoucansolvequitealot.QuitefranklyIthinkifyougiveawoman education, just leave her alone! Just leave her alone. She’ll sort out maternalmortality,she’llsortoutchildmortality,andyouknowwhat:she’llchartherwayandshe’llfindwhatsheneedswithoutanybodytellingherwhatsheneeds.ER: I’m just wondering: do you remember we did some research in Zaria aboutTBAs22?MM:Yes,Irememberalongtimeago,Elisha!ER:I’mjustwondering:IknowthegovernmentisstillsupportingaprogramforTBAs;haveyoubeeninvolvedinthatinanywayorsupportingitindirectly?MM:Yes!RightnowI’mactuallytrainingvillagehealthworkersinBorno,23sointheBokoHaram,northeastNigeriawherepeopleareresettling into theircommunitiesafterBokoHaramhaddestroyedit,alotofnursesandmidwivesdon’twanttogobackandthereareveryfewdoctors—hardlyanydoctors—andwhereveryouseehealthworkers,thehealthworkersareworkingforinternationalNGOsthathavecomeandthereforetheywillgo.Andalotactuallyalsodonotunderstandtheculture.SowhatIhavedoneinGirlChildConcerns,alongwithothersandwe’resogratefulwe’resupportedbyMerckforMothers,24sowewent

22 Interviewer’sNote:TBAmeansTraditionalBirthAttendant,inZariait'satraditionalmidwifewhohashadsomehealthdepartmenttraining. 23 Borno,alsoknownasBornoState,islocatedinnorth-easternNigeriaanditscapitalisMaiduguri.ItisthehomelandoftheKanuripeopleandseveralotherethnicgroups.Recently,thestatehasbecometheepicenterofBokoHaramactivitywithconflictcontinuouslybrewingbetweenthegroupandgovernmentforces.(“BornoState.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly23,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borno_State) 24 MerckforMothersisMerck’s$500millioninitiativetocombatmaternalmortality.(“WhoWeAre.”MERCKforMothers.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://www.merckformothers.com/who-we-are.html)

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to 3 local governments—Bama,25 Konduga26 and Gwoza27—where communities haveresettled,andwewent to thecommunitiesandweaskedthemtohelpusget theirowndaughtersthathaveatleastprimaryeducationandsomehavesecondaryeducation,andwegatheredthemunderatree—andI’llshowyousomepictures,oryoucanseethepictureson ourwebsite actually, lots of the pictures on ourwebsite [ER: this is theGirl ChildConcerns?]Yes,www.girlchildconcerns.org. So,weinterviewedthem,wegotthosethatwereliterate—literatemeaningbeingabletoreadorwriteinHausaorwhatever.So,wegathered them and brought them toMaiduguri28 andwe trained them as village healthworkers.Andthey’vebeenworkingasvolunteervillagehealthworkersforoverayearnowin their own communities. And at themomentwe have trained over 240 village healthworkers inthesethreelocalgovernmentsandwealsotrainednursesandmidwivesandchoosetosupervisethem.So,wehavesupportivesupervisionthatthesenursesarehelpingsupervise them. But what is important is that wherever we train these village healthworkers,immunizationratewentup.Attendanttoantenatalwentup.Facilitydeliverywentup.Butyouknowtheotherthingthatwentup?Thenutritionofkidswentup.Andhygiene.Andthey’recompetingwithinthemselves:whichcompound,whichsurroundingcatchmentareaofaparticularvillagehealthworkeriscleanerthantherest.ThegovernmentofBornoStatesawwhatwedid,andthey’veaskedustotrainvillagehealthworkersacrossthe27localgovernments,whichwejustconcluded.Yes,soI’mstilltrainingvillagehealthworkers.ER: Is thestategovernmentgivingyousome funding? Is thereanyway that thesewomencangetsomeformofsupport?MM:Atthemomentthegovernmentislookingtosee,forthosethattheytrained,theywanttoincludetheminapackageofsocialsafetynet,sotheygetamonthlystipend.Forthosethatwetrained,wearetryingtogivethematrade,sothattheyearn—theycontinuetodothisjobasvolunteers,butthentheyhaveatrade.Theyhaveworkthey’redoingandthey’reearningmoney.ER:Okay.InZariathewomenwhowereworkingasTBAsortraditionalmidwiveswillbehelpingthepeopletheyhelpdeliver?

25BamaisaLocalGovernmentAreaofBornoState.(“Bama,Borno.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bama,_Borno)26KondugaisalsoaLocalGovernmentAreainBornoStateandislocatedsoutheastofMaiduguri.(“Konduga.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konduga)27GwozaisaLocalGovernmentareainBornoStatewithitsheadquarterssituatedinthetownofGwoza.(“Gwoza.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwoza)28MaiduguriisthecapitalandlargestcityofBornoStateinnorth-easternNigeria.(“Maiduguri.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly15,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiduguri)

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MM:Yes.ER:Youmentionedthatyoupublishedseveralpublichealthjournalarticlesandalsothatyou’reanactivist,socouldyousaysomethingabouttherelationshipbetweenscholarshipandactivism—howyouseeit?MM:Formetherelationshipbetweenscholarshipandactivismstemsfromthefactthattheworld is now so small, it’s such a really global village, that scholarship gives you anopportunitytoshareyourideasinactivism.Italsogroundsyoutoworkwithdata.So,you’renotworkingonhypotheticalevidence;you’reworkingondata.Andsothereforeyou’reabletoprove“thisis—thisisthisstatisticalthing.”Werecently,forexample,havebeenworkingarounddrugabuseinNigeriaandwehadaBBCdocumentarycalledSweetSweetCodeine,whichbecausewehadstrongevidencecapturedoncamerainthedocumentarywithin24hours,wehadcodeine29bannedinNigeria.ER:Irememberthat.Thatwasatremendouscontributionyoumade.MM:Sothat’s…thetwoaresointricatelyrelatedthatwithoutscholarship,activismwillbefull of emotions and we need to grow past emotions. If it’s—anything we do that’ssustainable,has tobegrounded lookingat theroots.Andalso,beinga feministhasalsoopenedupopportunitiesformetoactuallymeetotherscholars—likeElisha!Anditcreatesopportunitytocollaborate,todoresearchtogether,toshareideas.Hasthatbeenexploitedto the maximum? No. Because in my opinion there’s a disconnect between academicfeminists and political feminists. Political feminists are right there, moving, shaking,pushingthings.Academicactivistsarerighttherechecking,researching,documenting.Thetwoneedtosit face-to-facetoeachotherandactuallyfindawayofbecomingone. So,Ithinkthere’salotwecandotobridgethegap—there’salot.ER:Couldyousaysomething…?Youknow,youmentionedyou’vebeenworkingwithGCC and FOMWAN. Could you say something about your NGO work withfoundations—yourfoundationwork?MM:Okay,soalltheworkIdowithFOMWANandGCCarethingsIdoasavolunteer.Andso,theywerelikeonthesideforme.The—Ihavedonepaidjobinthedevelopmentwork,inthedevelopmentworld,Ithinkforthelastprobably20—gettingto20years,Ithink,I’ve

29 Codeineisanopioidpainrelieverthatisusedtotreatmildtomoderatelyseverepain.Itisalsousedtoreducecoughing.(“CodeineInformation.”FDA.AccessedJuly22,2020.https://www.fda.gov/drugs/postmarket-drug-safety-information-patients-and-providers/codeine-information)

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beenworkinginthedevelopmentworld.First,IstartedastheheadofReproductiveHealthandHIVwithUSAID-fundedProjectCompass.Thereafter,IleftandworkedastheheadofPackard Foundation in Nigeria—Hewlett Packard. Following September 11 crash—financialcrashtheymergedtheofficesandhadoneofficeinEthiopia,sowe—theofficeinNigeriawasclosed.AndIthenmovedtoworkwithTheEarthInstitute,Columbia,whereIwasahealthsystemsadvisorreplicatingtheMillenniumVillage30experiencewhichIthinktodateisthebiggestscale-upintheworld,takingtheexperienceoftwovillages—millennialvillages–inNigeriaundertheleadershipofProfessorJeffreySachs31,andreplicatingin130localgovernmentsacrossthecountrywithNigeriangovernment’sownmoney.ThiswasledbyAminaMohammed,DSG [DeputySecretaryGeneralof theUN]. So, Iworked thereashealth system advisor. From there I moved to the Gates Foundation32 as the countryrepresentativefortheGatesFoundation,whereIsetuptheNigeriaofficefrommybedroomandbuiltituptowhatitwasuntilIleft2yearsago,andtogotoworkasaSeniorFellowwith the Children Investment Fund Foundation33 in the UK,whichwas a very fantasticexperienceandit’sgivenmetheopportunitytonowcontinuetoworkonthismovementaroundkeepinggirls’inschoolinAfrica.So,you’llbeseeingmoreofusworkingaround;howdoweensureeverysinglegirlinAfricacompletesatleastsecondaryschool?Which

30 TheMillenniumVillagesProjectwasajointdemonstrationprojectfromtheEarthInstituteatColumbiaUniversity,theUnitedNationsDevelopmentProgram,andMillenniumPromise.ItaimedtoprovethatanintegratedapproachtoruraldevelopmentcouldbeusedtoachievetheeightMillenniumDevelopmentGoals,goalsthataddresstheproblemsrootedandassociatedwithhealth,poverty,gender,equality,anddisease.Byimprovingaccesstocleanwater,primaryeducation,basichealthcare,sanitationthroughevidence-backedinterventions,thisprojectlookedtoensurethatcommunitieslivinginextremepovertyhadarealandsustainableopportunitytoliftthemselvesoutofthepovertytrap.Thefirstvillagewaslaunchedin2005inSauri,Kenya,withtheprojectbeingheavilychampionedbyJeffreySachs.(“MillenniumVillagesProject.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly23,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Villages_Project)31JeffreySachsisanAmericaneconomist,academic,publicpolicyanalyst,andtheformerdirectorofTheEarthInstituteatColumbiaUniversity.Heiswidelyregardedasoneoftheworld’sleadingexpertsoneconomicdevelopmentandthefightagainstpoverty.(“JeffreySachs.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly23,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs)32TheBill&MelindaGatesFoundation(BMGF)isanAmericanprivatefoundationco-foundedbyBillandMelindaGates.Itwaslaunchedin2000anditsheadquartersareinSeattle,Washington.BMGFisreportedlythelargestprivatefoundationintheworldwithanestimated$46.8billioninassets.Thefoundationlookstouniversalizequalityhealthcare,reduceextremepoverty,andtoexpandeducationalopportunitiesandaccesstoinformationtechnologyintheUnitedStates.(“Bill&MelindaGatesFoundation.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly24,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)33TheChildren’sInvestmentFundFoundation(CIFF)isaUK-basedindependentphilanthropicorganizationwithofficesinAddisAbaba,Beijing,London,Nairobi,andNewDelhi.Withanestimated$6.6billioninassets,CIFFisthefifthlargestglobaldevelopmentphilanthropyintheworldandtheworld’slargestphilanthropythatfocusesspecificallyonimprovingthelivesofchildren.(“TheChildren’sInvestmentFundFoundation.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly24,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Children%27s_Investment_Fund_Foundation)

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givesherthefirstleaptoensurethatweaddresstheissueofmaternalmortalityandchildmortality.So,youcouldseethepowerofeducation.ER:So,thesefoundationandNGOpositionsthatyou’veheld;howdoyouseethemintersecting—you’ve just told us one—howdo they intersectwith your feminism,withafeministperspective,orwiththewomen’smovementinNigeria?MM:IhadtocreatewiththeEarthInstituteColumbiatherewasnotmuchissuebecauseitwas an academic environment. So, the university has not much restrictions. And thePackardFoundationwasalsofluidforaslongaswedidnotsayPackardFoundationdoingwhat I was doing. And they also had an approach where you were encouraged to usewhateveropportunityyouhavetoensurethatyouhaveimprovedreproductivehealthofwomenandchildren.WorkingwiththeGatesFoundation—theGatesFoundationwasveryclear–as Iworked in theGatesFoundation Ihad tohave twodistinct lives:asacountryrepresentativeoftheGatesFoundation,becausetheGatesFoundationhassomethingthatIbelievein,thatallliveshaveequalvalue,whichformeisafundamentalprincipleofsocialjustice. So, for that, Iwould do anything. Butwhen I come tomy social activism, socialfeminism,Icouldworkonwomen’sreproductivehealthallright,women’s,children’srightstolive,children’srightstonutrition,theneedtoincludewomeninagriculture,butworkinginNigeriathere’snowayyoucouldbeanactivistandnotbepoliticallyactive.Nowthatwaswherethestrainwas.IcouldnotbepoliticallyactiveovertlywithoutdeclaringthatIam—thisisMairoMandara,thisisnotGatesFoundation.So,mypoliticalactivismactuallysloweddownwhenIwasthecountryrepforGatesFoundation.Iliterallywasnotpoliticallyactive,butofcourseIusedmypoliticalnetworktogetwhattheGatesFoundationwantedustodowhichisensuringthatallliveshaveequalvalue,andallpoorpeople,andeverybodyhasanopportunitytolivetheirbest.ER:Yes.So,let’ssee.Ihaveaquestionaboutactivismandscholarshipglobally.So,the…istheFOMWAN,youmentionedthatFOMWANhasinternationalnetworks.Canyousaysomethingaboutthat?MM:Yes,Irememberin19-25yearsago,1990,no—25yearsago—whenwejuststarted,whenwehadourfirstFOMWANNationalConference,wedecidedthatinawordweneededto create network with other Muslim women across West Africa. I was seven monthspregnant,andwestartedonajourneyfromNigeria—itwasinthemiddleoftheLiberianWar—andthenwetookflightstoGhana,toestablishFOMWANGhana,andthenwenttoLiberiainthemiddleofthewar.ThepresidentofLiberiaactuallycametoreceiveus.Hesaid,“whoarethesetwostrangewomenandonewasapregnantwoman?AndAishaLemuwasawhiteBritisholdwoman[ER:IsthatAishaLemu?}Yes,itwasAishaLemuandI,andIwaspregnant; Iwas20-something and Iwasheavilypregnant. Thepresident actually

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cametotheairporttoreceiveus;hesaid,“WhatonEarthareyoudoinginthemiddleoftheWar?”Wesaid,“No,wecametoseeourMuslimsistersthatareinthewar.”Hesaid,“Sowhatisthemission?”Isaid,“No,wecametotellthemthatwecareaboutthemandwewantthemtoformFOMWANFederationofMuslimWomenAssociationinLiberia.”Andtherewewere.Wewent—itwasmemorable.IjustsawthepicturesyesterdayinMinna34duringhercommemoration. And we stayed in this hotel that was all full of bullets. And we weresupposedtostaythreedaysinLiberia,andwecouldn’tleavetillafteraweek,becausenoplanecouldland.Itwasfantastic.So,weformedafederationofwomenassociationinGhana,Liberia,SierraLeone…[ER:WhereinGhanawasthat?WasthatinthenorthernpartofthecountrynearTamale?Orwasit…?]InGhana?[ER:yes,I’mjustcurious.]No,inAccrainGhana.SowewenttoGhana,Liberia,SierraLeone,theGambia,andDakar[inSenegal],inonego.AndwehadFOMWANsisterorganizationsformedthereandthefollowingyeartheyallcameforourinternationalconferencehere.AndnowwehaveFOMWANintheUK,wehaveFOMWANintheUS,soit’srolling.Andforalongtime,weweretheonlyNGOthathad—inNigeria—thathadaUNobserverstatus.ER: That’s great. That’s a great organization, you should be very proud. I’m veryimpressed.MM:Thankyou.ER: So, I’m just wondering: Are there any, can youmake sense of differences orsimilaritiesoftheissues.Ithinkyoumentionedthiswhenwefirstbeganabouthowtherearedifferent feminists fromdifferentpartsof theworldwhohavedifferentissuessodoyou...MM:Yes,andevenwithinthesameissue;weworkverycloselywiththeCANWomen—theChristian Association of NigeriaWomen35—and also the women that have no religiousaffiliation.SoeveninNigeriayoufindthatwomenfacedifferentthings.While,forexample,inpartof—southernpartsofNigeria,there’sstillinheritanceofwomen.Whenahusbanddies, the husband has a right, primary right to inherit thewife of his brother,with thepropertyandeverything.Wedon’thavethatintheNorth.Butthatdoesn’tmeanweignorethat. We still take it as a collective responsibility. In the North there’s a lot of child

34 MinnaisacityinNigeriaandisthecapitalofNigerState,oneofNigeria’s36federalstates.Thecityishometotwomajorethnicgroups:theNupeandtheGwari.(“Minna.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly23,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minna)35TheChristianAssociationofNigeria(CAN)isanumbrellaorganizationwithbothWomenandYouthWings.ThegroupfocusesonissuesthatdisproportionatelyaffectChristiansinNigeriaandtheywieldsignificantpoliticalpower.(“ChristianAssociationofNigeria.”Wikipedia.AccessedJuly23,2020.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Association_of_Nigeria)

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marriage—theymaynothavethat.Theyhaveadifferentkindof thing—theyhaveearlysexualdebut.Theyactuallyhavechildsextrading.So,wetalktoeachother.Andsimilarlyindifferentpartsoftheworlddifferentwomenhavedifferentissuesthatareaffectingthem,sothebottomlineis:whereverawomanhasanissue,itisourcollectiveissue,becauseifyoudon’tdealwithit,theworldisaglobalvillage—itwillgravitatetoyou.Andinanycaseeverywomanhastherighttoliveasahumanbeing,soit’sourcollectiveresponsibilitytoseehowwecansupporteachother.ER:That’sverygood.So,IthinkI’veaskedeverythingthatIwasgoingtoaskyou,soI’mjustwonderingifyouhaveanyquestionsformeorcomments?MM:TheonlycommentIhaveisjustacallforusaswomenactiviststhathonestlywhileIagree thatweneed to share,weneed tohave information,weneed tohelp eachother,luckily there’s not much money these days for conferences. We need to de-emphasizeconferencesandfocusonthework.Attendingoneconferencecouldsponsormaybe3girlstogotosecondaryschool.SoquitefranklyIfeelweneedtofromtimetotimereflect,sitbackandreflect,andrecalibrateourprioritiesandseewhatwedorightandwhatwe’renotdoingright.Secondly,asweworkwithdifferentcultures,differentnorms,Ithinkwealsoneedtorespectotherpeople’snormsandcultures,andnotassumethatoursisthebestorthatweknow.Weactuallydon’tknow,andthemorearrogantweare,thelessweknow.Andthemorewewanttopushourownopinionthelesseffectivewewillbe.So,that’sit.ER:Thankyouverymuch. I reallyappreciateyourwork,andyou tellingusaboutthesethings—manythingsIdidn’tknow!MM: Yes, I knew as I was looking at your face, I was surprised—I thought you kneweverythingaboutme,Elisha.ER:It’sbeenarealpleasuretointerviewyou.Wethankyou.MM:Ithankyouverymuch.Thisisgreatworkyou’redoing.Keepitup.