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Transcription  of  the  meeting  between    

• José  Bové  -­‐  MEP  

• Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes  -­‐  MEP  Assistant  

• Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson  :  Swedish  Match  

• Johann  Gabrielsson  :  Swedish  Match  

 

Date  :  20  mars  2013    

Heure  :  16:45  à  18:05  

Place    :  Bureau  de  José  Bové  -­‐  Parlement  européen  à  Bruxelles  

 

 

 

 

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José  Bové:   I've  been  working  since  [unclear  0:02]  years  on  transparency,  with,  against  pesticide  companies,  against  GMOs  and  I  know  how  lobbying  is  going  on.    So  for  me  it's  not  a  problem.    Somebody  can  fight  for  his  company,  try  to  struggle  for  getting  it  better.    So  this  is  not  a  problem,  but  it  has  to  be  clear  how  things  are  going  on,  and  we  don't  need  to  have  a  big  mess.    European  Union  has  so  many  difficulties  in  this  moment,  we  don't  need  to  have  some  more.    So  that's  why  I  think  that  we  have  to  be  clear  on  that.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Absolutely.  

José  Bové:   Okay?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  agree.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It's  just  that  when  we  sit  and  talk  and  have,  it's  just  knowing  that  it's  nothing  that  you  want  to  publish  or,  the  recordings  or  so.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Are  you  putting  the  recordings  on  the  website?  

José  Bové:   No,  just  to  be  have,  to  say  okay.    I  asked  the  members  of  my  committee,  Agriculture  Committee,  who  has  been  receiving  letters  because  the  debate  is  going  to  go  also  in  our  committee  on  the  tobacco  directive,  so  I  wanted  to  know  who  has.    For  the  moment  I  have  no  answer.    And  I  think  it's  better  if  it's  clear  on  the  table,  because  when  we  are  in  this  kind  of  subjects  we  have  to  be  completely  clear.  

  And  for  me,  you  know,  I  am  not  against  smokers,  as  you  can  see.    For  me  it's  clear.    This  is  my  volunteer,  but  I  mean  the  difference  between  the  citizens  that  smoke  and  the  interest  of  the  companies.    For  me,  these  are  two  things  completely  different.    So  I  can  understand  other  positions,  but  we  have  to  be  clear  when  we  talk  from  where  we  are  talking.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  think  it's  a  very  good  point  because  there  is  a  lot  of  things  happening  in  the  [unclear  1:55]  of  the  [unclear  1:56]  and,  of  course,  there  should  be  transparency,  all  over.    I  mean  for  our  industry  and  for  other  industries.    It's  important  because  otherwise  we  would  end  up  in  a  mess  that  we  have  been  in.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  yeah,  yeah.    Yes,  because  it's  a  big  mess.    Yeah.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  so  we  never  expected  that  it  wouldn't  be  transparent.    So  that's  another  matter  we  centre  talk  about.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  yeah,  yeah,  yeah.  

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Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  first,  I  don't  know  if  you  know  what  Swedish  Match.    We're  a  small,  we're  not  producing    cigarettes.    We  make  matches.    We're  a  small  Swedish  company.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Feudor,  the  French  match.    That's  our  brand.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That's  Swedish  Match,  and  we...  

José  Bové:   And  they  work  quite  well.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   That's  our  first  safety  match.  

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  the  lighters.    Maybe  you  have  one  of  our  lighters  in  your  [unclear  2:44].  

José  Bové:   No  way.    [Unclear  2:45].  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Cricket  is  the  [unclear  2:47].  

José  Bové:   ...quite  well.    

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Cricket,  or.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  above  all  we  make  traditional  tobacco  product  called  snus  which  has  been  used  in  Sweden  for  several  hundred  years.    It's  based  on  tradition,  quality  and  we  believe  firmly  in  quality  and  tradition.    I  don't  know  if  you've  ever  seen  snus?  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  I  seen.    There's  a  lot  of  parliamenters  who  use  it.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Smoking  pipe  I  can  see  is  a  pleasure  for  you,  but  if  you  want  I  would  like  to  quit,  I  can  assure  you  this  is  a  very  good  means.    Actually  in  Sweden  nowadays  there  are  more  people  using  this  than  smoking  any  kind  of  tobacco.    So  in  Sweden  we  are  using  tobacco  on  about  the  same  average  as  the  Europeans,  but  with  a  difference  that  we  put  small  bags  under  our  lip  instead  of  inhaling  smoke.    And  that  has  then,  of  course,  been  very  clear  in  the  health  statistics.    We  have  the  lowest  cancer  rates  in  the  developed  world,  lowest  tobacco  related  mortality  in  the  world  where  you  can  measure  it,  and  that  is  clearly  because  people  just  don't  smoke.  

  Nowadays  you  have,  in  Sweden  it's  about  eight  per  cent  of  the  men  that  are  smoking,  but  still  if  you  look  at  men  between  20  and  45  where  you  have  the  highest  prevalence  of  smoking  in  other  European  countries,  I  don't  know,  you  have  40  per  cent  of  the  men  that  is  [unclear  4:27].    So  it's  clearly  not  that  we  are  giving  up  tobacco,  because  that  I  don't  think  will  be  possible.    I  don't  think  we  will  see  a  tobacco  or  nicotine  free  society  in  50  years.  

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  And  we  are  then  in  the  awkward  position,  Swedish  Match,  that  this  product  being  a  traditional  tobacco  product,  as  many  other,  and  it's  also  the  least  harmful  tobacco  product.    You  should  believe  it  because  I  work  with  Swedish  Match.    That's  of  course...  

José  Bové:   But  you're  allowed  to  say  it.    I  understand  the  problem.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Exactly.    I'm  allowed  to  say  it  and  there's  a  lot  of  others  that  is  supporting  it,  amongst  other,  WHO,  and  also  the  European  Commission's  own  scientific  commentary  has  also  stated  this.    So  there  we  are  on  quite  solid  ground.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  what  many  of  the  scientists,  they  measure  risk  with  tobacco  where  the  cigarette  is  on  the  high  end  of  the  risk  continuum  as  they  call  it,  and  on  the  other  side  is  the  nicotine  gums  and  the  patches,  the  nicotine  replacement  therapies,  and  just  beside  you  have  snus  which  is  a  tobacco  product,  addictive,  it's  nicotine.    It  can  give  some  [unclear  5:42]  that  there  is  an  overwhelming  amount  of  science  showing  that  there  is  no  risk  linked  to  a  lot  of  cancers  that  you  get  from...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Not  any  cancer  is  there  a  scientific  link  between.    

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   There  are  a  couple  of  studies  which  are  disputed,  but  the  overwhelming...  

José  Bové:   It's  dangerous  to  say  no.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Exactly.  

José  Bové:   It's  dangerous  to  say  that.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   You  can't  say  absolutely  this  is  a  harm,  this  product,  because  no  products  are  absolutely  harmless.    You  can't  say  that,  but  if  you  look  at  it  from  a  risk  perspective,  the  relative  risk  of  the  product  is  95  to  99  per  cent  less  riskful  than  cigarettes.    That's  where  the  science  put  it  on  this  risk  continuum  scale.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  there  is  something  very  special  with  this  tobacco  product.    It  is  that  it's  the  only  tobacco  product  that  is  not  allowed  in  the  European  Union.  

José  Bové:   Well  just  in  part  of  the  European  Union  because  [unclear  6:42].  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  Sweden  have  an  exemption.    That's  what...  

José  Bové:   That's  when  Sweden  came  inside  of  European  Union.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yes,  otherwise...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yes.  

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José  Bové:   Because  there  is  an  exemption.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  so  Sweden  has  an  exemption.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Otherwise  I  don't  think  Sweden  would  have  voted  in  favour.    I  worked  in  the  referenda  campaign.    I  believed  in  Europe,  believed  in  the  unity  of  Europeans.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Traditions,  different  cultures,  different  tastes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  Berlin  Wall  had  just  fallen  and  you  remember  the  feeling,  the  new  Europe  that  came  about  then  and  this,  if  this  hadn't  been  allowed  Swedes  would  have  said  no.  

José  Bové:   Yes,  but  don't  you  believe  that  Swedish  politicians  which  have  been  fighting  to  go  inside  to  have  a  good  entry  to  the  referendum,  did  they  explain  clearly  that  they  had  an  exception  for  snus?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  What  they  said...  

José  Bové:   But  they  were  not  sure  and  maybe  most  of  them  knew  at  that  moment  that  it  will  not  be  possible  to  extend  the  authorisation  to  the  other  countries?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  What  we  have  heard  from  the  people  negotiating  is  that  they  sort  of  more  or  less  said  that  where  there  is  a  revision  of  the  directive  around  the  corner  we  will  sort  of  sort  it  out  then.    And  what  they  did  in  the  last  directive  was  that  they  changed  the  cancer  warning  to  a  less,  to  this  warning  that  says  that  this  tobacco  product  is  addictive  and  may  harm,  cause  harm  to  your  health.  

  So  what  we,  what  the  people  negotiating,  they  have  told  us,  is  that  we  believe  that  this  would  be  fixed,  this  would  be  rectified.  

José  Bové:   But  I'm  sure  they  knew  concretely  at  that  moment.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Maybe  they  did.  

José  Bové:   That  it  would  not  happen.    And  I  think  a  lot  of  politicians  which  have  been  negotiating  at  that  moment,  and  those  who  said  yes  because  [unclear  8:36],  they  know  that  it  would  never  happen.    So  I  believe  that  Swedish  Match  has  been  took  in  a  [unclear  8:45]  trap,  a  trap  on  that  issue  and  you  have  been  taking  this  trap  and  you  didn't  know  what's  going  to  happen.    So  this  is  not  the  fault  of  your  company,  but  it's  clearly  those  who  told  you  that  this  is  not  going  to  be  a  problem  for  after.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Well,  I  mean...  

José  Bové:   That's  what  I  believe.  

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Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  but  on  the  other  hand  it's  politics  and  politics  is  a  moving  animal  and  we  have,  of  course,  all  the  time  hope  that  reason  must  sometime  come  to  victory.    What  is  the  reason  that  you  have  chewed  tobacco,  you  have  nasal  snuff,  you  have  the  other  kind  of  tobacco  that  looks  like  snus  that  is  of  North  African  region,  that  is  all  allowed,  but  this  one  that  is  the  least  harmful  and  has  a  good  effect  on  Swedish  health  is  not  allowed,  and  we  have  an  internal  market  and  we  have  a  European  Union  that  is  supposed  to  respect  tradition,  cultures  and  this  is  going  to  be  allowed  for  all  European  citizens.  

  So  for  us,  it  doesn't  make  sense  and  sooner  or  later  this  political  animal  must  also  understand  that  reason  should  prevail.    So  just  because  it  was  said  in  '92  we  have  to  believe,  we  are  believing  in  what  we  are  doing  and  that's  something  you  have  to  do.  

José  Bové:   Maybe,  so  you  know  I  was  telling  you  that  I  have  been  fighting  since  years  against  big  companies,  so  you're  not  a  big  company.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  we  are  definitely  not.  

José  Bové:   Okay,  so  I  do  know  that  and  I  believe  it  and  for  me  it's  okay.    But  I  was  quite  surprised,  maybe  you  have  the  answer.    Why  did  a  big  company  want  to  make  a  joint  venture  with  you  in  2009  just  before  when  your  parliament  was  going  on  and  the  new  Commission  was  going  to  go  on?    This  happened  in  February  and  in  September  2009  when  Philip  Morris  made  a  joint  venture  with  you.  

  Of  course  I  can  understand  that  they  could  have  an  interest  if  snus  could  be  sold  all  over  the  countries,  but  I  am  not  sure  that  this  was  their  first  interest  on  doing  that.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Do  you  know  what  happened  in  Sweden.    I  think  in  many  of  the  cigarette  companies  looked  at  Sweden  and  figured  why  don't  we  sell  our  products  here  and  then  many  of  the  big  cigarette  companies  has  bought  up  small  factories,  snus  factories.    They  clearly  look  at  snus  as  a  bit  of  an  odd  animal  and  it's  probably  really  an  investment  for  the  big  companies,  but  I  believe  that  the  big  companies  realised  that  cigarettes  are  not  the  future  and  they  need  to  find  new  products  that  they  can  put  on  the  market.  

José  Bové:   I  don't  believe  in  that.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  What  I  heard  yesterday  from  that  hearing  in  the  environment  committee  is  that  Philip  Morris  put  three  new  products,  reduced  risk  products,  on  the  market  in  the  next  year  in  Europe  because  today  there  is  a  legal  framework  to  put  new  products  on  the  market.    As  long  as  you  can  smoke  it  or  chew  it  you  can  put  it  on  the  market,  but  you  can't  place  it  because  the  ban  is  actually  a  ban  on  how  you  use  the  tobacco.  

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  So  they  would  put  these  products  on  the  market  in  the  next  year,  this  man  from  Philip  Morris  said  and  I  think  that  especially  a  company  like  British  American  Tobacco,  they  have  invested  heavily,  they  bought  an  e-­‐cigarette  company,  they  have  invested  in  a  nicotine,  in  a  foreign  company,  with  some  sort  of  smoking  device,  but  it's  nicotine.  

  So  I,  well  we  see  from  the  rest  of  the  industry  is  that  they're  trying  to  get  into  this  harm  reduction  field,  which  is  obviously  difficult  because  they  are  selling  the  most  lethal  of  products  around,  and  I  think  that's  also  why  they  wanted  a  joint  venture  with  us.    We  weren't  a  part  of  that  decision,  of  course,  but  I  think,  I  guess  they  looked  at  our  knowledge,  our  tradition,  our  expertise  and  maybe  saw  this  as  a  test  thing.    But  I  think  a  lot  of  the  companies  are  looking  into  new  products.    That's  what  I  read  at  least.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  maybe,  but  I  know  quite  well  how  the  companies  work  and  you  know  how  Philip  Morris  work  and  well  you  know  their  practices  and  how  they  went  in  front  of  the  court  in  the  United  States  and  so  on  and  how  things  are  still  going  on  all  over  the  world  with  traffics  and  so  on,  and  the  companies  are  completely  linked  with  all  these  things  and  they  are  not  out  of  this  traffics  and  so  on.  

  So  they  make  a  lot  of  money  with  tobacco,  a  lot,  a  lot,  a  lot  of  money.    You  know  the  price  of  a  package,  it's  five  cents.    Five  cents.    So  if  you  make  a  [unclear  14:04]  market,  you  make  a  lot  of  money  and  so  they  organise  also  the  market.    The  companies  do  it  and  this  was  clearly  in  the  reports  at  the  international  level  and  that's  why  they  were  sentenced  very  hard  and  they  had  to  pay  a  billion  dollars.  

  So  we  know  clearly.    So  for  me  it's  not  believable  that  this  kind  of  companies  go  in  saying  okay,  snus  is  nice  and  we're  going  to  benefit  of  this  on  the  European  market.    For  me  it's  clear  that  the  debate  of  snus  for  them  was  a  way,  another  way  to  come  in  the  debate  on  the  new  directive  on  tobacco.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  When  we  speak  to  other  people  I  sense  that  they  have  a  harm  reduction  agenda  but  they  don't  have  a  market  to  put  the  products  on,  but  you  know  what?    It's  big  companies  and  we  don't  know  who  takes  the  decision  and  we  don't  know  for  which  [unclear  15:07]  reasons  they  take  the  decisions  either.    So  maybe  you're  right.    I  wouldn't  know  that.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   We  are  a  very  small  company.  

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  compared  with  them  I  think  we  work  mainly  like  a  normal  consumer  producing  company.    So  it's  very  different  to  how  Swedish  Match  works  because  they're  [unclear  15:25].  

8  /  36  

José  Bové:   That's  why  I  think  that  this  was  a  worse  thing  for  you  to  brung  this  product  in  the  European  Union  to  be  linked  with  a  big  company,  because  that  way  nobody  can  believes  to  you  because  they  say  okay,  Swedish  Match  are  nice,  they're  in  their  country,  a  small  job,  okay,  but  when  the  link  is  done  with  big  company,  we  know  who  is  going  to  try  and  push  on  the  decisions.    And  all  the  debate  which  was  going  on  with  the  commissioners  are  done  by  the  big  companies.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Are  you  just  referring  to  the  Dalli?  

José  Bové:   The  Dalli  stuff,  I  read  the  last,  all  the  information  on  this.    So  I  read  a  lot  so  maybe  you  know  [unclear  16:21]  maybe  newspapers  where  I  was  citing  it.    So  for  me  it's  clear.    I'm  not  saying  that  your  company  is  in  this  stuff  aligned.    Even  if  I  think  that  some  people  didn't  say  what  was  the  truth,  and  when  I  see  on  the  newspaper  the  declaration  yesterday,  or  this  morning,  I  don't  remember,  it  was  on  the  newspaper.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It  was  last  week.  

José  Bové:   Last  week.    The  declaration  of  Mrs  Kimberley.    You  saw  this  maybe  in  the  newspaper.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   From  the  Maltese.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   From  the  Maltese  newspaper.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   You  read  that.  

José  Bové:   When  she  explains  because  she  had  to  go  in  front  of  the  court  to  explain  herself  on  the  discussion  which  happened  with  Mr  Zammit  and  about  the  two  meetings  which  had  been,  she  told  in  the  beginning  in  the  newspaper  and  you  think  this  very  often  and  the  discussion,  the  public  discussion  that  there  was  two  meetings.    In  this  newspaper  she  didn't  talk  about  the  second  meeting.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  17:30]  was  the  one  in  Malta.  

José  Bové:   You  were  there.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah.  

José  Bové:   I  know.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   So  we've...  

José  Bové:   In  the  Hilton  Hotel.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   In  the  Hilton  Hotel  on  the  1st  of  December  I  was.  

José  Bové:   And  you  never  went  to  [Peppi's  17:44].  

9  /  36  

[Overspeaking  17:50]  

José  Bové:   So...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  I  think  it's  worth  just  to  put  on  that,  what  happened  to  us  is  because  of  initiative  that  you  took  when  you  were  quite  new  with  the  company.    You  joined  the  company  only  roughly  a  year  ago.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   A  little  bit  more.    It  was  last  autumn.    In  2011.  

José  Bové:   2011.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  mean  obviously  this  is  your  -­‐  I  was  on  maternity  leave  back  then,  but  I  worked  a  bit  also  and  we  had  a  discussion  about  the  very,  very  difficult  and  hopeless  process  that  we  were  thinking.    We  had  provided  a  lot  of  science,  we  had  provided  a  lot  of  information  to  Commission  and  we  just  felt  that  the  Commission  officials  didn't  care.    They  just  took  our  -­‐  they  treated  us  like  a  normal  stakeholder  but  they  just  [unclear  18:46]  and  we  can  say  that  in  the  proposal  and  the  impact  assessment.    The  impact  assessment  is  horrible.  

  Either  they  are  incapable  of  understanding  science  or  they  made  up  their  mind  before  and  I  don't  think  that  they're  incapable  of  understanding  science.    They're  smart  people.    But  I  think  they  made  up  their  mind  before  that  snus  should  not  be  [unclear  19:04]  and  that's  why...  

José  Bové:   But  I  don't...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  that's  why  the  events  unfolded.    That's  what  happened.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  but  this  story's  quite  amazing.    How  did  Mr  Zammit,  who  phoned  or  send  an  email  to  ESTOC,  is  able  the  day  after  to  be  coming  directly  to  meet  Swedish  Match  and  try  to  have  the  first  contact.    When  you  see  the  emails  and  the  chronology  you  put  out,  because  you  put  out  a  chronology  on  the  story  and  we  see  that  the  beginning  of  the  story  is  quite  incredible,  how  this  man,  okay,  I'm  going  to  see,  I  want  to  have  a  link  with  ESTOC,  I  take  the  plane  directly  and  the  day  after  I  am  directly  to  meet  people  from  Swedish  Match  and  say  okay,  now  we  can  try  to  work  and  we  will  go  back  [unclear  20:01]  discuss.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  we  never,  when  you  contacted  Gayle,  we  never  understood  that  Zammit  was  a  part  of  that.    When  did  you  first  learn,  this  whole  office  here...  

José  Bové:   So  I  want  to  understand.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Of  course,  we  were  not  a  part  of  that.    That  was  a  thing  that  went  via  ESTOC  and  Swedish  Match  is  a  part  of  ESTOC.  

10  /  36  

José  Bové:   Yeah.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  if  you  read  the  chronology,  and  as  far  as  I  understood  at  the  time,  Zammit  was  selling  snus  in  this  kiosk,  illegally.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   There  are  five...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   There  are  5000  Swedish  expats  living  on  Malta  and  working  in  the  gambling  industry  because  all  Swedish,  gambling  [unclear  20:37],  so  they  are  5000  Swedes  and  they  want  their  snus.    And  he  had  understood  that  so  he  ordered  a  lot  of  snus  on  internet  and  sold  it  in  his  kiosk.  

José  Bové:   Before?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  yeah.  

José  Bové:   Before  this?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yes,  before.  

José  Bové:   This  contact?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  exactly.    So  he  had  a  certain  interest  in  snus,  but  I  more  or  less  had  heard  this  story  as  it  has  been  told  there,  that  he  also,  Swedish  Match  cut  all  its  selling  on  internet  because  we  understood  that  there  were  certain...  

José  Bové:   When  did  you  cut?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  Finnish  Cancer  Society  took  one  of  the  snus  [unclear  21:19]  sailors  to  court  because  of  smuggling.    We  have  four  customers,  we  had  four  customers  that  we  sold  directly  to.    They  were  retailers,  eminent  retailers,  and  we  had  communicated  to  them  that  you  can't  sell  to  the  Union,  there's  a  ban  of  course,  but  maybe  we  didn't  really  follow  up  to  make  sure  that  they  didn't  do  it.    But  then...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   They  had  a  lot  of  other  customers  in  the  world.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  they  had...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   They  had  internet  services  all  selling  to  the  US  and  so.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  US  and  the  rest  of  the  world,  so,  and  then  this  organisation  was  suing  this  company  and  then  we  looked  into  it.    So  at  that  time...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It's  important  that  Swedish  Match  was  not  a  part  of  it.    It  was  an  internet  retailer  that  we  were  delivering  to.    So  it  was  nothing  -­‐  and  they  were  selling.  

11  /  36  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  when  we  were  made  aware  of  that,  we  told  them  that  if  you  want  to  be  customers  with  us  you  have  to  stop,  you  really  have  to  stop  selling  to  Europe  because  it's  illegal.    So  the  three,  the  four  big  ones  stopped  selling  to  Europe,  our  product  at  least.    I  don't  know  what  they  do  with  other  manufacturers,  but  our  product  they  can't  sell.    And  that's  why...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   He  had  already,  and  this  is  far  as  I  understood,  he  had  already  booked  one  of  those  Ryanair  tickets  from  Malta  to  [unclear  22:40],  which  is  one  of  the  Ryanair  airports  south  of  Stockholm,  and  came  with  a  big  bag  in  order  to  just  fill  it  up  with  snus  in  Sweden.    Because  you  are  allowed  to  move  snus  in  European  Union  as  long  as  it  is  for  your  personal  use.    So  it's...  

José  Bové:   That's  why  we  saw  so  many  people  here.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  and  also  you're  allowed  to  have  it  with  you.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   3000  cans,  I  think.    3000  cans.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  he  just  emptied  a  tobacco  shop  in  the  shopping  and  this  is,  I  have  no  idea,  this  is  just  what  I  heard.  

José  Bové:   Okay,  so  that  can  be  the  explanation  to  why  he  came?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  that's  so  he  -­‐  and  then  at  that  time,  he  had  made  a  contact  with  Swedish  Match  or  ESTOC.    Do  you  know,  is  there  like  a  retailer  shop  where  I  can  go  and  buy  a  lot  of  snus?    And  if  it  was  ESTOC  or  Swedish  Match  answering,  no,  we're  not  selling  to  you,  you  have  to  go  to  the  shop.    There  is  no  factory  selling  or  anything.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  desperate  as  we  are  to  talk  about  the  [unclear  23:55]  is  that  if  you  want,  I  wasn't  part  of  that  meeting,  but  if  you  want  to  meet  and  talk  about  the  facts  and  the  science  we  will,  of  course,  meet  you.  

José  Bové:   That's  strange.    He  bought  the  ticket  and  he  had  contact  with  ESTOC,  I  don't  remember  the  exact  date,  but  he  had  already  bought  the  ticket  to  Stockholm.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah.  

José  Bové:   So  he  was  expecting  to  meet  people  from  your  company?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  no,  his  purpose  was  to  go  and  buy  snus.    It  was  to  stock  up  on  snus.    And  then,  as  we  always  say,  we  are  beggars  not  choosers,  we  are  not  famous  MEP  parliament  that  everyone  wants  to  meet.    So  when  someone  wants  to  meet  us  and  are  interested  in  our  product,  we  come  and  we  really  want  to  [unclear  24:45]  and  we  talk  their  ears  off.  

12  /  36  

José  Bové:   I  think  it's  a  little  bit  political  too  that  if  I  remember,  you  have  been  working  for  the  European  institutions.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   For  European  commissions,  yeah.  

José  Bové:   You  have  been  working  there.    Mrs  Kimberley,  too.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  she  was  working  for  the  European  Council.  

José  Bové:   No,  but  for  the  institution  [unclear  25:08]  so  that  mean  that  you  know  quite  well  how  the  institutions  work  and  how  the  Council  has  to  be  transparent  and  so  on  and  how  the  institution,  because  this  is  quite  clear  now,  it's  quite  known  that  we  have  to  be  careful,  everybody,  because  this  is  how  the  companies  work.    How  can  you  believe  that  Mr  Zammit  is  going  to  say  okay,  now  we  are  going  to  make  this  famous  meeting  and  I  can...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  he  wasn't...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   We  never  been  in  contact.    I  never  met,  we'd  never  been  in  touch  with  him.  

José  Bové:   No,  but  he  was  going  on  for  the  contact.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  then  he  disappeared  from  our  radar.  

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Zammit  meets  with  the  ESTOC  lady  who  lived  in  Stockholm  back  then.  

José  Bové:   Yeah.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  a  colleague  who  is  based  in  Stockholm  as  well.  

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   They  had  this  lounge  disco,  bought  snus,  then  he  goes  away  and  disappears  from...  

José  Bové:   That's  it.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  I  didn't  hear  about  that.  

José  Bové:   And  several  months  after?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Several  months  after...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  contacted...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  then  you  contacted.    Out  of  your  own,  you  contacted  your  acquaintance,  Gayle.  

13  /  36  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That's...  

[Overspeaking  26:16]  

José  Bové:   ...heard  from  the  institutions  before.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  but  I'm  also,  I  would  say,  not  a  friend  but  my  wife  and  she  is  very  good  friends.  

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   So  we  have  met  on  certain  private  occasions,  so...  

José  Bové:   And  at  that  moment  you  knew  that  Mrs  Kimberley  had  linked  also  by  her  mother  with  Mr...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  that  I  didn't  know  at  that  time.    I  had  no  idea.    But  what  I  did  know,  and  that  I  have  understood  before,  is  that  Malta  is  a  very  small  island.    

José  Bové:   Yeah.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   If  you  come  from  one  of  the  elite  families,  have  been  working  for  the  council  or  the  European  Union,  if  you  come  from  one  of  the  more  [unclear  26:58]  families,  you  more  or  less  know  each  other.    But  I  had  no  idea  that  she  had  a  contact  with  Dalli.    What  I  knew  was  that  she  had  as  a  reference  on  her  CV,  Tony  Borg.    No...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  former  -­‐  Joe.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Joe  Borg,  the...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  fisheries.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   The  Fishery  Commissioner.    So  it  was  not  at  all  -­‐  it  was  very  innocent  when  I  contacted  her  the  first  time  and  simply,  and  I  think  as  I  was  new  also  in  the  company  it  was  very  clear  to  me  in  what  a  desperate  situation  we  were  in  both  in  Stockholm,  in  Brussels  when  it  came  to  being  completely  ignored.    And  you  should  not  forget  at  this  time  snus  was  not  an  issue.    I'm  sure  you  had  never  heard  of  it  being  a  part  of  the...  

[Overspeaking  27:46]  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It  was  not  a  discussion.    It  didn't  exist.    It  was  completely  forgotten.  

José  Bové:   I  understand  that.    I  believe  that.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  the  spokesperson  of  [unclear  27:59]  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  28:00]  

14  /  36  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  came  out  and  said  things  publicly,  there  are  no  scientific  proof  that  snus  is  less  dangerous  than  cigarettes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Obviously  [unclear  28:11].  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   An  official  statesman  from  [unclear  28:14]  and  Swedish  Match  has  given  a  year  try  and  providing  science,  the  legal  base,  the  situation.    At  least  I  think  the  only  thing  that  we  small  little  naive  Swedes,  was  that  we  were  going  to  get  a  fair  trial.    At  least  they're  going  to  look  at  our  case  and  if  they  don't  like  it,  yeah,  yeah,  that's  one  thing,  but  please  give  us  a  fair  trial  and  judge  us  on  the  science  and  the  legal  [unclear  28:44].  Don't  just  ignore  us.    Just  don't  say  that  we  are  -­‐  and  as  it  was  such  a  small  product  we  had  really  the  feeling  they  are  just  ignoring  us  because  no  one  cares  and  no  one  will  ever  listen  to  them.  

  And  at  this  time  we  were  quite  sure  that  [unclear  29:03]  was  just  running  the  whole  process  themselves  and  Dalli  was  not  even,  maybe  didn't  even  know  that  there  is  a  product  called  snus.    I  mean  very  few  did.    Had  he  got  involved  and...  

José  Bové:   So  why  did  you  try  to,  it  is  Mrs  Kimberley  who  said  I  can  make  the  deal  to  have  a  meeting  with  Mr  Dalli?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  no,  I  called.    I  called  her  and  explained  to  her  because  she's  in  Malta,  she  had  left  the  Council  and  my  wife,  [Christine  29:32]  had  talked  to  her  and  I  just  came  up  with  let's  give  Gayle  a  call,  it  was  completely  innocent,  and  ask  what  she  thinks.    Do  you  have  any  information?    Do  you  know  what  we  could  do?    How  -­‐  and  that's  also  important.    We  had  tried  to  get  meetings  with  Dalli  but  been  ignored.    We  didn't  get.    The  big  companies,  they  met  with,  as  far  as  I  know,  with  Dalli  and  his  cabinet  and...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  met  with  the  [chef  de  camp  30:02]  but  that  was  as  far  as  we  got.  

José  Bové:   This  is  quite  now  very  good,  but  you  know,  this  is  a  big  mess  for  you.    I  think  so.    It's  a  real  big  mess  because  you're  in  a  story,  a  bad  story,  and  you  are  the  bad  guys  now.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  which  is  very  strange.  

José  Bové:   Yes,  but  because  that...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  reported  something.  

José  Bové:   That's  why  I  believe  that  you  have  been...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Played.  

José  Bové:   Played  completed  in  this  story.  

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Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No.  

José  Bové:   Because  -­‐  I  finish.    I  try  to  make  [unclear  30:33].    Really  I  feel  bad  for  you  because  I  think  this  is  a  bad  story.    So  Mrs  Kimberley  says  okay,  we  can  discuss.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   She  simply  said  -­‐  the  thing  is  it's  very  important  to  keep  in  mind  she's  a  clever  woman,  she  has  been  working  with  telemarket  issues  so  she's  also  a  trained  lawyer  on  the  particular  issue  because  we  have,  of  course,  focused  on  two  issues  that  we  think  are  remarkably  strange  with  the  [unclear  31:02]  snus.    First,  it's  why  we  are  making  a  traditional  good  quality  product.    We  are  not  allowed  to  sell  it  with  everything  else.    So  that's  the  internal  market  perspective.    Then  we  have,  of  course,  the  health  issue  that  we  have  seen  that  snus  has  had.  

  So  those  are  the  two  lines  that  we  argue  from,  health  and  internal  market.    And,  as  you  know,  the  directive,  with  the  new  tobacco  directive  is  to  improve  health  and  improve  the  movement  of  internal  market.    Snus  actually  fulfils  both  of  those  [unclear  31:36].  

  But  it  was  mainly  for  the  internal  market  issues,  as  I  knew,  and  also  discussing  with  her  do  you  have  any  idea  what  can  we  do,  and  she  said  well  I  will  think  about  it.    Then  she  came  back  with  the  very  clear  contact  me  with  the  consultancy  contract,  which  we  have  registered  everything,  we  have  paid,  they  virtually  said  four  five  thousand  euros.    She  has  eight  points  that  she  can  do.  

  She  would  like  to  have  training  more  on  the  scientific  of  the  snus  issue.    She  studied  herself  the  internal  market  perspectives  of  it,  also  studied  the  2004  case  where  Swedish  Match  challenged  the  ban  in  the  court.    She  was  going  to  see  if  there  was  a  possibility  to  find  out  if  the  Commissioner  knew  anything  about  snus.    Was  he  aware  that  this  product  exist,  that  it's  a  part  of  the  [unclear  32:39]  of  the  new  directive?    Does  he  know  what  he  is  going  to  take  for  us  a  fatal  decision  about  or  does  he  just  doesn't  care?  

  So  this  was  -­‐  and  it's  quite  a  detailed  contract,  four  or  five  thousand,  this  particular  one.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Did  your  company  know  the  framework  of  the  WHO  in  the  article  [unclear  33:06]  that  it's  impossible  to  create  the  condition  to  attract,  for  example,  a  commissioner  in  that  kind  of  meeting  outside  of  the  framework?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  we  didn’t  expect  it  to  be  outside.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  we  had  no...  

16  /  36  

[Overspeaking  33:20]  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   ...commissioner,  wherever  he  is,  and...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  it  was  not  in  the  contract  that  they  were  supposed  to  meet  in  Malta  or  anywhere  else.    It  was  very  clear  what  -­‐  and  it  was  not  even  we  didn't  know  at  the  time  if  he  was  going  to  meet  him.    It  was  rather  to  try  to  find  out  whether  maybe  that  was  not  discussed.  

José  Bové:   But  the  meeting  happened.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  he  should  have  registered  it.    I  wouldn't  have  -­‐  I  mean  of  course  we...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   We  never  said  we  want  any  secret  meetings.    We  don't  want...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Don't  tell  anyone.  

José  Bové:   That  I  believe.    This  I  really  can  believe  you,  but,  so  okay,  for  that  I  think  we  completely  agree  on  this  story.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah.  

José  Bové:   There  is  a  point  I  think  which  is  not  true  and  this  is  what  Mrs  Kimberley  said  last  week.    Mr  Dalli  was  not  in  the  second  meeting.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  can  -­‐  if  you  want  to  I  can  tell  you  the  story.    I  know  that  she  wasn't  in,  I  know  she  wasn't  in  the  second  meeting,  but  that  I  found  out  when  OLAF  told  me.    

José  Bové:   So  you  know  now.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Now  I  know  because...  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   [Unclear  34:33]  in  the  second  meetings.    When  did  you?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   OLAF.    OLAF  told  you.    

José  Bové:   That  she  was  not  in.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That  she  was  not  in,  because  the  story  I  was  told  when  I  came  to  Malta  on  13th  of  February,  when  I  talked  to  Gayle  and  also  when  she  called  me  on  the  10th  of  February,  she  lied  to  me.    She  said  to  me  that  she  had  been  in  the  meeting.    And  also  when  I  met  with  Gayle  in  Peppi's  when  everything  was  explained  to  me,  which  was  of  course  a  complete  shock.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  I  can  believe.    16  people  there.    You  say  that's  a  brave  man.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  but  I  am  very  dedicated  to  what  I'm  doing.    I  believe  in  this.    I  do  think  we  have  a  case,  that  we  are  unfair  treated,  and  sitting  there  and  understanding  this  is  my  money.    This  has  nothing  to  do  with  what  

17  /  36  

people  think  or  believe  in  or  -­‐  it's  actually  just  a  question  of  cashing  up,  and  everything  just  fell  off.    What  am  I  working  for?    What  am  I  really  doing  and  what  is  -­‐  and  it  was  a  terrible  shock.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  I  could  believe.    But  the  problem  is  that...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   So...  

José  Bové:   Well  you  I  can  understand.    You  come  back  to  Stockholm  and  you  say  what  is  this  about,  these  people  are  completely  crazy  and  so  you  go  after  that  and  you  say  to  OLAF...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  what  happened.    I  wanted  to  explain  why  she  was  not  in  the  meeting.    When  I  met  them,  I  first  met  Gayle  alone  in  the  Peppi's  where  she  explained  what  it  was  all  about.    She  said  I  was  at  the  meeting,  you  should  be  surprised  to  hear  that  the  Commissioner  has  studied  the  case  well,  he  understand  that  you  have  the  science  on  your  side,  you  have  the  legal  arguments  on  your  side,  but  this  is  a  political  question  and  this  is  a  question  of  emotions  and  this  is  someone  who  has  to  take  a  fight  for  it,  this  is  someone  who  has  to  stand  up  and  scream  and  make  noise  and  shout  otherwise  no  one  will  give  a  damn  because  it  [unclear  36:55].  

  But  you  do  have,  and  he  said,  he  had  said  also  clearly,  don't  forget  what  I  did  in  the  [unclear  37:04].    I  can  steer  a  process  in  the  right  direction  very  strongly.  

José  Bové:   I  know,  because  I  was  in  front  of  him.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  he  bulldozed  you.  

José  Bové:   We  win  at  the  end  because  we  made  the...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  37:17]  

José  Bové:   And  [Mrs  Benatti]  with  the  [unclear  37:18]  president  which  has  the  conflict  of  interest.    This  was  my  first  fight  and  the  first  time  I  met  Mr  Dalli  on  the  issue  of  GMOs  and  the  conflict  of  interest.    So  that's  why  I  know  when  he  has  an  idea  I  can  accept  even  though  I  don't  agree,  but  we  had  a  fight  and  so  we  knew  that  way.    So  I  know  that  this  kind  of  things  he  can  say.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   So  this  was  brought  up,  both  Gayle  wrote  it  in  her  first  report  after  the  first  meeting.    Already  then  Dalli  had  stated  that  he  can,  if  he  feels  that  he  has  the  right  conditions  or  even  right  environment  and  he  believes  in  it  and  he  has  the  science  on  his  side,  he  can  pick  a  fight.  

  So  this  Gayle  told  me  in  the  restaurant,  that,  but  then  she  had  been  asked  to  leave  the  meeting,  or  if  Dalli  had  gone  out,  I  don't  know,  and  then  Zammit  had  told  her  that  Dalli  wants  to  be  compensated  for  this,  

18  /  36  

his  political  career  might  be  over  if  he  comes  out,  even  he  has  the  science  and  everything  on  his  side,  he  might  come  out  as  a  tobacco  friend  and  his  political  career  is  over  and  he  wants  to  be  compensated.  

  So  then  I  was  alone  with  Gayle  in  the  restaurant  when  she  told  me  this  story.    And  she  never  mentioned  the  figure.    I  could  see  on  her  that  she  knew  how  much  it  was  all  about.    That  was  very  clear,  but  she  didn't  mention  it  and  I  believe  she  was  a  little  bit  embarrassed  about  how  much  money  it  was  actually  about.  

  And  at  this  moment  Mr  Zammit  came  in  to  the  restaurant.    He  told  the  same  story  with  other  words.    He  was  happy  and  smiling.    

José  Bové:   That's  when  he  asked  to  give  you  a  pill?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  or  offering  me  heart  medicine  to  be  prepared  for,  and  then  he  told  me  the  Commissioner  wants  US$60  million.    And  he  confirmed  the  whole  story  that  Gayle  had  told  me,  that  Gayle  had  been  in  the  meeting.    So  I  was  told...  

José  Bové:   By  two.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   By  two  persons  and  also  she  told  me  on  the  phone  on  the  Friday  so  I  had  heard  it  three  times.  

  So  this  was  what  I  reported.    This  was  the  -­‐  because  that  was  the  story  that  I  had  been  told  because  I  never  met.    This  was  the  first  time  I  met  this  Mr  Zammit.    I  had  never  met  Dalli.    It  was  never,  and  it  was  only  in  the,  during  the  long,  long  investigations  with  OLAF  that  I  have  been  sitting  through  that  suddenly  they  told  me  do  you  know  that  Gayle  was  not  in  the  second  meeting.  

  And  that  was  another  shock  for  me  because...  

José  Bové:   OLAF  was  aware  of  that  when  they  [unclear  40:19]?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  they  had  clearly  in  their  investigations...  

José  Bové:   This  was  at  what  moment?    Because  the  investigation  begin  in  May.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  don't  know.    I  don't  really  -­‐  I  met  with  OLAF  maybe  three  times  and  it  was  not  the  first  time.    So  it  was  not  when  the  investigations  started.    It  must  have  been  maybe...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  40:39]  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It  was  also  -­‐  I  mean  they  of  course  wanted  to  make  sure  that  I  was  not  lying.    They  were  not...  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   But  in  fact  you  are  saying  the  same  thing  as  Mr  Dalli.  

19  /  36  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  and  Gayle  also,  that  she  was  not  there  in  the  second  meeting,  yeah.  

José  Bové:   But  she  didn't  -­‐  now  she  said  it.    Last  week  we  see  this  now,  clearly,  but  before  she  always  say...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  I  have  no  idea  if  she  has  kept  to  that  story.    I  have  no  idea,  because  I  haven't  been  in  touch  with  her.    I  don't  know.  

José  Bové:   I  think  it's  better.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   The  only  thing  I  know,  I  found  out,  was  told  by  OLAF  that  she  had  [unclear  41:25].  

José  Bové:   Because  you  know  that  this  is  of  course  is  a  real  problem  because  in  the  report  of  OLAF  this  is  clearly  mentioned  that  there  was  only  one  meeting  where  everybody  agrees  that  they  were  together.    This  was  the  first  meeting  they  were  talking  about.    They  made  that  decision  getting  out,  pushing  out  Mr  Dalli  was  only  on  this  one  meeting.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  have  no  idea.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Was  it  a  story  that  she  wasn't  present  at  that  meeting?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  don't  know  either.    I  mean  I  wasn't  there.    I  haven't  -­‐  it  makes  no  sense  to  me.    But  what  I've  heard  is  that  she  came  to  the  meeting  but  she  was  not  allowed  into  the  office.    So  it  was  a  planned  meeting  and  when  she  came  there  she  had  to  wait  outside.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   And  she  did  then  met...  

José  Bové:   Mr  Dalli  at  that  moment.    We're  not  going  to  go  on  further.    I  think  it's  important  you  have  this  discussion  because  of  course  once  Swedish  Match  put  on  all  this  thing  in  front  of  OLAF  and  you  were  right  to  do  it,  I'm  not  saying  that  you  were  not  right  to  put,  to  say  okay,  people  are  asking  me  $60  million  now  to  buy  us  to  make  the,  to  change,  to  try  to...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  think  it's  important  that  [unclear  43:07]  came  back  with  this  story,  we  were  of  course  what  are  we  doing  now,  what  should  we  do?  

José  Bové:   Go  directly  to  the  court.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  should  we  report  it,  should  we  just  believe  it's  a  joke  or  what  do  we  do?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Is  anyone  going  to  believe  us?  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   You  waited  quite  a  long  time  to  alert  the  Swedish  authorities.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No,  we  took  it  to  the  Swedish  authorities.  

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Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Immediately?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  it  was  three...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Three  days  after,  I  think.    I  don't  remember.    I  think  it's  in  the  chronology.    So  we  reported  it  and  the  Swedish  Government's  like  I  don't  want  to  hear  this,  but  it's  good  that  you  tell  us.  

  But  I  think  what  we  did,  first,  I  think  [unclear  43:48]  and  you,  we  sort  of  argued  no  one  is  going  to  believe  us  anyway  so  we  just  pretend  that  this  is  a  joke  and  we  don't  have  any  evidence.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   We  didn't  record  anything  [unclear  43:59]  a  guy  from  Swedish  Match,  I  said  why  should  anyone  believe  me.    It  was  nothing.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  we  believed  it  was  credible.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  was  sitting  there.    For  me  it's  of  course  very  credible.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Because  this  pizzeria,  we  had  so  much  information  about  the  process,  and  if  you  go  down  to  [unclear  44:18],  our  local  pizzeria,  and  you  ask  them  about  the  process  in  Brussels  they  wouldn't  know  anything.  

José  Bové:   Who  gave  him  this  information?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Well  we  think  that...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I'm  not  to  tell  anyone,  we  have  never  accused  anyone  or...  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   This  report  from  Philip  Morris  can  give  him  this  information?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   It  was  commissioned  internal  information,  where  the  process  was,  where  it  was  going  and  meetings  that  are  going  to  take  place,  et  cetera,  et  cetera,  with  stakeholders.    I  don't  know  where  this  information  come  from  but  it  was  enough  information  for  us  to  believe  there  could  be  something  in  it.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It  was  enough  information  to  make  me  convinced  at  the  time  that  Dalli  was  behind  it.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  you  know  what?    We  don't  know.    We  don't  know.  

José  Bové:   That's  why  I  think  there's  a  [unclear  45:10].  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  hope  for  a  fair  trial  for  our  product  and  we  think  Dalli  should  get  the  fair  trial  as  well.    Maybe  it's  just  a  bit  -­‐  this  is  of  course  a  big  mess  but  we  hope  that  everything  will  be  cleared  up  with  the  court  situation  in  Malta  and  I  hope  that  that  OLAF  report  will  be  released.    We  have  no  idea  what's  in  it,  but  it's  apparently  sufficient  information  for  Mr  Dalli  to  resign,  whatever  happen  in  that  meeting.  

21  /  36  

José  Bové:   We  don't  know.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  don't  know.  

José  Bové:   But  for  the  moment  we  have  to  say  that  when  we  don't  know  it's  incredible  that  this  situation  a  few  days  after,  by  October,  how  the  things  went  on  so  quickly.    30  minutes  to  get  out  and  how  [Mr  Barosa  46:01]  take  this  decision.    Because  if  the  only  fact  we  have,  for  the  moment  the  only  one  we  know  is  this  meeting  with  Mrs  Kimberley.    This  is  the  only  fact,  the  clear  fact.    That's  the  only  fact.  

  If  this  is  enough  to  put  out  Mr  Dalli,  Mr  Baroso  and  Mrs  [Day  46:23]  have  much  more  meetings  with  no  [unclear  46:35]  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Transparency.  

José  Bové:   With  no  transparency.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  have  you  in  the  parliament  heard  anything?    We  want  that  OLAF  report  to  get  out  so  we  can...  

José  Bové:   But  that's  why  we're  working  and  we  are  asking  to  make  a  special  committee  of  the  European  Parliament  on  the  transparency  and  to  understand  what  happened,  because  there's  a  problem  with  OLAF,  how  the  works  went  on,  because  this  is  the  first  time  it's  the  case  there.    We  meet  there  regularly,  the  investigations.    So  this  is  one  problem,  how  it  works.    Second  problem  is  how  the  Commission,  Mr  Baroso  went  in  this  stuff.    So  this  is  also  a  big  problem,  we  don't  understand  how  this  went  on,  which  is  the  role  of  Mrs  Day.    This  is  another  problem  and  so  on  and  so  on.  

  So  that's  why  in  this  moment  I  believe  that  you  were  really  used  and  you  didn't  know.    In  French  we  say  it's  [spoken  in  French  47:37].    How  can  translate?    It's  not  possible,  but  you  have  been  the  word  for  [spoken  in  French].  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   [Prove  face  47:49].    

José  Bové:   But  you  were  completely  under  the  real  story  and  when  you  went  to  OLAF  to  say  okay,  this  is  our  story  and  the  investigation  began,  this  was  I  believe  what  wanted  other  people.    But  you  couldn't  do  anything  else.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No,  when  we...  

José  Bové:   You  had  no  capacity  to  do  anything  else.    You  have  this  so  big  story  you  cannot  keep  it  to  you.  

[Overspeaking  48:21]  

José  Bové:   I  can  accept  this  completely.  

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Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   It's  another  important  point  also,  because  we  didn't  know  what  to  do  but  then  the  offer  came  back,  or  this  Mr  Zammit  contacted  [Inga  48:32]  from  ESTOC,  our  trade  association,  and  eventually  he  sort  of  extended  the  offer  and  when  this  happened  we  were  like  -­‐  we  hadn't  told  her  anything  about  this.    She  didn't  know.    But  when  this  happened,  we  realised  that  if  people  find  out  that  we  got  this  offer  and  didn't  do  anything  it  would  be  even  worse.  

José  Bové:   So  he  talked  to  people  from  ESTOC  about  the  offer?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  we  kind  of  turned  it  down.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Kind  of?    I  don't  know  if  it  was  kind  of.    I  was  quite  clear  already  at  the  meeting  in  that  because  I  told  Mr  Zammit  in  the  meeting  that  I  am  a  foot  soldier,  I  don't  take  decisions,  I  don't  negotiate,  I  will  report  to  my  boss  about  this  conversation.  

José  Bové:   That's  good.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  then  I  asked  him  are  you  interested  in  my  personal  point  of  view?    He  said  yeah,  of  course.    You  have  made  a  big  mistake.    This  is  not  going  to  fall  out  well  and  I  have  no  idea  what  actions  will  be  take  because  of  this  conversation  that  I  report,  but  you  have  made  a  big  mistake  and  this  is  never  going  to  be  accepted.  

  Then  he  looked  a  little  bit  I  would  say  puzzled  and  surprised  and  said  what  do  you  mean  by  that.    60  million  is  20  per  cent  of  your  net  profit  last  year  and  do  you  know  how  much  the  share  price  has  gone  up  when  there  has  been  snus  discussions  in  the  European  Union,  because  of  course  this  discussion  had  only  happened  in  Sweden,  but  that  affected  the  share  prices  of  Swedish  Match.    And  he  knew  dates  and  when  the  share  prices  had  gone  up  and  how  much  they  had  gone  up  when  there  had  been  a  statement  from  -­‐  so  he  seemed  puzzled  just  to  that  I  so  category  could  say  that  this  is  going  to  be  no  when  this  is  good,  actually  very,  very  good  business  [unclear  50:47].    Okay,  it's  a  lot  of  money  but  imagine  what  possibilities  you  have.  

  So  it  was  in  that  position  I  left  him  in.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  When  we  turned  it  down,  when  Swedish  Match  turned  down  the  offer,  he  searched  contact  with  this  lady  from  ESTOC  that  he  had  lunch  with  in  Stockholm  and  he  sent  an  email  to  her,  or  actually  to  the  former  chairman  of  ESTOC,  I  don't  know.    He  sent  it  to  the  chairman  of  ESTOC.    I  have  a  good  business  proposition.    It's  probably  [unclear  51:28].    I  don't  remember  the  exact  wording.    I  have  a  good  deal  for  you.  

  So  Inga  [unclear  51:34]  because  she  didn't  know  anything  about  this  and  she  said  what  is  this  all  about  and  she  asked  for  what  are  you  proposing,  

23  /  36  

what  are  you  offering.    That's  funny  because  the  day  after  he  resigned,  he  sitting  with  this  email  in  TV,  in  the  media,  which  is  an  email  conversation,  an  email  thread  between  Inga  and  Silvio  Zammit.    And  they  say  that  oh  look,  this  newspaper  offered  me  money  but  it  was  a  private  conversation  where  she  tried  to  understand  previously  in  that  conversation  what  he  could  offer,  why  he  had  any  contact.  

  And  then  we  learned,  our  boss  learned  that  he  had  been  offering  this  money  and  he  goes  oh  God  no,  we  need  to  do  something  now  because  we,  first  of  all,  if  this  spreads  and  we  don't  do  anything,  we're  a  Swedish  company,  we  need  to  -­‐  and  that's  where  when  you  and  our  chief  legal  officer  in  the  company  and  you  just  got  all  the  evidence  we  had  and  send  it  to  Catherine  Day.    There  you  go,  we  are  reporting  something,  we  don't  know  what  it  is,  but  this  is  what...  

José  Bové:   So  it  was  Catherine  Day  who  received  all  the?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  sent  it  to  her.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  that  also  took  quite  some  time  because  when  the  legal  counsels  in  Stockholm  say  what  are  we  going  to  with  this  now,  because  somehow  we  just  want  to  get  it  off  our  table,  but  who  are  we  sending  this  too.    Are  we  sending  it  to  the  Swedish  [unclear  53:09],  are  we  sending  it  to  Maltese,  are  we  contacting  the  European  Parliament  was  also  discussed  and  asked  if  should  we  just  give  this,  maybe  to  the  European  Parliament  is  the  right  forum  for  taking  this  forward,  just  inform.    Maybe  the  European  Parliament  could  have  done  a  proper  investigation  on  Mr  Dalli  or  whatever.    Do  we  go  to  OLAF  directly?  

  Then  we  got  the,  well  I  don't  know  from  whom,  but  it  was  in  Stockholm  and  we  were  not  involved.    They  said  no,  inform  the  European  Commission  about  what  had  happened.    So  we  didn't  charge  anyone,  we  didn't  say  listen,  this  has  happened  to  us,  we  don't  know  if  it's  true,  but  we  think  it's  a  good  idea  that  you  are  aware  that  there  is  someone  in  Malta  saying  that  he  is  representing  Dalli,  one  of  your  Commissioner,  that  legislation  is  for  sale.    That  was  it.  

  Then  immediately  Catherine  Day,  more  or  less  within  24  hours,  sent  it  to  OLAF.  

José  Bové:   That  was  in  May?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   That  was  in  May,  yeah.  

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Johann  Gabrielsson:   Then  started  the  investigation  and  OLAF  clearly  took  it  very  seriously  from  the  beginning  and,  as  I  said,  OLAF  staff,  me  and  two  others  were  long  meetings  on  several  occasions.    Then  nothing  happened.  

  I  personally  at  the  time  was  convinced  that  OLAF  was  just  going  to  come  out  with  saying  something  that  no  proof,  nothing,  believe  this,  put  this  in  a  cupboard,  this  is  it.    But  we  were  not  informed.    We  didn't  hear  anything.    Then  two  days  before  the  16th  or  the  15th  of  October  when  the  press...  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Two  days  before,  or  one?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  don't  remember.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  think  it...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It  was  the  day  before  the  press  release.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Someone  from  OLAF  called  our  legal  guy  I  think  on  the  Monday  evening.    This  was  on  the  Wednesday  I  think.    

José  Bové:   Yeah,  the  Wednesday,  the  16th.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  16,  and  he  said  that  you  -­‐  no,  it  was  on  the  Tuesday.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  it  was  two  days  but  he  said  we're  going  to  have  a  press  conference  on  the  16th,  be  prepared  that  you  might...  

José  Bové:   Have  to  answer.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Have  to  have,  but  they  didn't  say  what  the  consequences  or  any...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Be  prepared.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Be  prepared,  I  want  to  say,  so  he  didn't  know  anything  before  the  press  release.    The  only  thing  was  that  we  are  going  to  be  mentioned  and  you...  

José  Bové:   [Unclear  55:47]  know  that  you  exist.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  then  all  hell  broke  loose.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   It  should  have  been  very  difficult  for  you.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Of  course  it  has.    It's  been  terrible.  

José  Bové:   Now  it's  more  difficult  now  to  come  back  in  the  debate.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yes,  yes,  yes,  no  one  cares  about,  everyone  thinks  that  it's  either  that  we  were  behind  it  or  that  we  were  trapped  by  someone.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Or  we  are  idiots  or  we  are  whatever.  

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José  Bové:   But  who  could  have  used  you.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  but  I  would  say  that...  

José  Bové:   I  believe.    I  have  my  idea  about  you.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  personally,  my  personal  point  of  view  is  that  we  have  not  been  used.    There  is  one  explanation  that  takes  away  all  the  conspiracy  theories  and  that  is  that  OLAF  have  found  sufficient  amount  of  evidence  that  Dalli  was  behind  this.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Or  was  aware  and  didn't  react.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That's  my  personal  opinion.    I  don't  know  if  you  read  the  British  version,  the  [unclear  56:53]  version  of  [unclear].    

José  Bové:   Yes.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   There  comes  for  me  information  that  I  had  not  known,  but  when  he  says  that  OLAF  has  email  traffic  between  Zammit  and  Dalli  where  Zammit  is  informing  Dalli  about  the  progress  of  what's  happening.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  think  he  makes  an  interesting  observation  towards  them  with  this.    Mr  Dalli  has  sued  the  Commission,  he  sued  us  for  defamation  even  though  we  haven't  heard  anything  from  the  court  system  here,  but  he  hasn't  sued  Silvio  Zammit  who  extended  the  offer  to  us  in  Mr  Dalli's  name.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   So  why  doesn't  he  sue  Zammit,  the  person  who  clearly  put  him  in  this  shit?  

José  Bové:   The  answer  is  maybe,  I  don't  know,  no  one  knows  so  I  try  to  understand.    You  were  saying,  and  that's  true  that  Malta's  a  very  small  country  and  the  families  know  themself  and  inside  the  families  are  also  the  two  parties  and  there  was  a  big  one,  which  was  the  Nationalist  Party  which  was  all  the  government,  the  president  and  so  on,  and  Mr  Zammit  was  also  in  the  Nationalist  Party  and  he  was  linked  clearly.  

  But  also,  there  is  Mrs  Kimberley,  so  these  were  people  who  know  themself  very  well  since  a  long  time  and  so  it's  not  difficult  to  say  okay,  now  there's  a  meeting  and  so  on  and  it  goes  very  quick  and  it's  not  a  problem  for  them  to  meet.    I'm  not  sure  that  Mr  Dalli  at  that  moment  understood  that  there's  going  to  be  a  problem.  

  So  I  think  that's  a  beginning.    So  exist,  there's  some  mails  exist  between  Zammit  and  Dalli  saying  okay,  I  ask  this  money  and  I  help  you  to  get  this  money  to  get  out  of  politics.    If  this  exist  and  if  Mr  Dalli  did  not  say  anything  about  that...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   He's  finished.  

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José  Bové:   He's  made  a  big  mistake  and  it's  finished  for  him  and  he  is  politically  wrong.    But,  for  the  moment,  the  thing  which  was  put  on  the  table  by  OLAF  as  the  biggest  problem  was  the  meeting  with  Mrs  Kimberley  and  the  fact  that  there  were  two  meetings.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  that's  not  true,  because  Baroso  clearly  said,  or  [unclear  59:22]  said,  we  have  clear  proof  that  Dalli  was  aware  of  what  Zammit  was  doing.    That's  what  they  said.    He's  not  referring  to  the  meetings.    He's  just  saying  simply  we  have  clear  proof  that  Dalli  was  aware  of  Zammit's  actions.    

José  Bové:   So  it  depends,  the  two  things,  because  one  of  the  main,  and  this  was  in  the  debate  in  the  parliament  when  there  was  to  the  [unclear  59:51]  made  questions  to  the  Commissioner.    It's  clearly  saying  the  most  important  thing  is  the  fact  that  Mr  Dalli  went  against  the  rule  of  the  WHO.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   But  that  was  never  said  by  Baroso  and  [Kessler  60:09].    They  have  never  mentioned  it.    

José  Bové:   [Unclear  60:10]  didn't.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  no,  at  the  press  conference  the  only  thing  that  Kessler  and  Baroso  referred  to  was  that  there's  clear  proof  that  Dalli  was  aware  that  Zammit  was  trying  to  sell  legislation.    That  is  clear.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   In  the  name  of...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   In  the  name  of  [unclear  60:25],  and  there  was  never  reference  to  any  inconsistencies  concerning  contacts  with  the  industry.    That  was  not  the...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   They  were  told  the  second  meeting,  that  she  wasn't  part  of  the  second  meeting.    They  told...  

[Overspeaking  60:46]  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   They  never  said  [unclear  60:51]  two  meetings.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   They  never  said  that?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No,  because  they  told  you...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   They  were  aware  of  that  before  the  -­‐  that's  in  the  report.    It's  in  report  that  there  was  only  one  meeting.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   They  asked  you  why  you  said  that  Gayle  met  with  Dalli  when  they  knew...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Exactly.  

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Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   ...that  she  didn't.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  because  they  started  to,  because  how  do  you  know  that  Gayle  was  present  and  then  I  told  them  exactly  what  I  told  you,  because  she  told  me  on  the  phone  and  she  told  me...  

José  Bové:   In  January  you  were  in  here  in  the  parliament  on  the  10th  of  January.    There  was  a  meeting,  no?  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   It  was  the  meeting  organised  by  [unclear  61:41].  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yes,  yes.  

José  Bové:   You  were  in  this  meeting,  Jean-­‐Marc...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That's  when  we  met.  

José  Bové:   That's  where  you  met  first  time  and  during  the  meeting  Jean-­‐Marc  told  me  that  you  said  that  there  was  two  times.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yes,  I  told  them,  I  told  the  story  from  my  perspective.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   So  in  January  you  still  didn't  know.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  in  January  I  knew.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  we...  

José  Bové:   So  why  did  you  say  it?    Why  did  you  say...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   At  that  time  we  had  been  told  to  keep,  by  OLAF,  that  there  is  an  investigation  going  on  in  Malta,  the  rest  of  it,  so  certain...  

José  Bové:   So  keep  your  version.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  tell  what  you  have  said  to  us  and  what  is  your  version  because  there  is  a  Maltese  criminal  investigation  and  that  should  not  be  disturbed.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   So  OLAF  say  to  you  to  keep  saying...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   They  said  like  this,  we  can't  give  you  any  orders  how  you,  because  you  have  done  nothing  wrong  in  this,  but  we  have  done  an  investigation,  there  is  Maltese  investigations,  it  would  be  preferably  that  this  is  not  disturbed  and  this  will  definitely  not  help  certain  things  that  come  out.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  this  is  what  the  Maltese  police  told  you  as  well.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  the  Maltese  police  also  told  me  that.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Maltese  police.  

José  Bové:   But  secretly.  

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Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Three  bad  cops  apparently.  

José  Bové:   This  is  quite  incredible.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  it's  not  incredible.    I  mean  it  was  my  choice  to  tell...  

José  Bové:   Because  why  I  say  that,  because  I  was  quite  often  in  front  of  police  [unclear  63:13]  for  justice  and  so  on,  so  when  things  are  changing  the  first  thing  you  have  to  say  is  clearly  I  have  been  put  in  a  mistake  and  I  thought  that  was  true,  but  now  I  can  clearly  say  it's  not  because  the  investigators  know  that  clearly  in  Malta.    So  they  knew  it,  OLAF  knew  it  also,  so  what  was  the  problem  for  you...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   To  be  frank  with  you,  I  don't  remember  that  they  pointed  out  this  situation  clearly.    They  just  said  that  please  be  careful  with  how  you  actually  deal  with  the  information,  please  try  to  not  disturb.    I  knew  the  story  that  I  had  believed  and  thought  was  true  had  already  been  out  more  or  less  official.    So  that  was  the  reason  why  I  took  the  decision  that  I  tell  what.    I'm  quite  sure  they  never  told  me  exactly  don't  ever  mention  that  [unclear  64:14]  second  meeting.    That  was  not  the  case.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  it's  also  we  can  only  tell  the  story  how  we...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   How  I  lived  it.  

José  Bové:   That's  very  true.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  we  reported,  what  Swedish  Match  reported  was  a  story  where  we  actually  thought  that  there  were  two  meetings.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That  was  in  the  report  to  Catherine  Day  because  it  was...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   This  is  what  Gayle  has  told  you.    

José  Bové:   Yeah,  and  you  believed  in  her.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Of  course  I  did.    I  had  no...  

José  Bové:   At  first.    She  was  the  one  who  lied,  her  story.    So  that  took  a  lot  of  importance  for  Mr  Dalli  in  his  defence.    So  maybe  he  is  trying  to  put  this  on  the  top  because  the  other  part  of  the  story  is  not  very  good  for  him.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yes,  of  course.    Of  course.  

José  Bové:   This  can  be  an  answer,  or  the  second  thing  is  that  there  is  nothing  else  and  this  is  for  him  the  best  way  to  get  out  of  this  problem,  but  the  problem  is  that  he  may  be  [unclear  65:15]  that's  what  I  read  in  the  newspaper  in  Mariana.    He  wants  to  put  you  in  front  of  the  court  for  saying  that  you  lie  saying  there  was  two  meetings.  

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Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  never  lied.    I  just  said  what  I  had  been  told.    That's  not  a  lie.  

José  Bové:   No,  that's  right.    That's  why  I  read  in  the  newspaper,  so  I  believe  that  this  is  what  he  wants  to  do  now.    But  you  have  now,  you  answer  very  clearly  so  I  understand  the  story.  

  But,  in  fact,  now  Swedish  Match,  I  don't  know  how  it,  it's  going  to  be  more  and  more  difficult  to  bring  the  debate  because  now  the  directive  is  on  the  table  of  the  parliament.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  it's  awful.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   It's  awful.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   It's  tabled  to  make  [unclear  66:06]  for  snuff  now.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  got  any  advice?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  if  you  have  any  advice.  

José  Bové:   Because  when  you  come  to  meet  somebody  and  say  okay,  we  are  Swedish  Match,  people  are  going  to  be  afraid,  saying  this  is  the  beginning  of  the  mess.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   It's  been  problematic.    We  took  the  initiative  to  meet  with  [unclear  66:28]  control  committee  and  we  went  there,  which  was  a  very  scary  experience  I  have  to  say.    We  came  there  and  thought...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Don't  forget  that  it  was  we  contacting  them.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  66:39]  our  side  of  the  story  and  it  was  the  [unclear  66:41]  meeting  and  it  was  50  people  around  and  we...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Very  hostile  atmosphere  even  though  we  were  the  one  -­‐  we  just  wanted  to  tell  you  what  we  are  being  telling,  that  we  are  maybe  naive  Swedes,  we  are  transparent,  we  have  been  doing  our  things,  we  ended  up  in  this  shit.    We  had  thought  maybe  the  focus  would  be  a  little  bit  more  on  corruption  issues  than  on  how  [unclear  67:08]  all  communication  is,  but  no.    Corruption  has  not  been,  are  there  high  politicians  out  there  selling  legislation?    This  has  not  been  discussed.  

  It  has  been  discussed  that  we  as  a  small  company  trying  to  act  transparent  has  messed  up.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  then,  because  there  are  some  members  in  the  [unclear  67:27]  control  committee  that  is  pursuing  us,  I  get  the  feeling,  and  we  have  tried  to  be  transparent  but  they  -­‐  at  one  point  we  just  felt  that  everything  we  tell  them  is  being  washed  in  one  way  or  another  and  put  

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in  the  media.    We  think  that  this  discussion  merits  a  serious  discussion  between  us,  between  the  Commission  and  OLAF  and  the  legislators  of  the  parliament,  merits  a  good  discussion.  

  If  this  is  going  to  be  turned  into  a  media  circus  we  don't  want  any  part  of  that  and  we  have  tried  a  number  of  times  to  have  a  constructive  dialogue  with  Mr  [unclear  68:05]  to  talk  about  we  have  complied  with  everything  you  asked  for,  but  can  you  please  allow  us  to  understand  what  your  process  is,  what's  our  obligations  are.    Because  everything  we  said  and  did  ended  up  in  the  media.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Everything  we  say,  when  I  had  personal  meeting  with  Kessler,  we  sent  letters,  the  day  after  it  was  in  the  media.    Is  that  a  serious  way  of  trying  to  find  out  what's  -­‐  and  I  even  was  very...  

José  Bové:   Well  you  know,  the  parliament  they  don't  care  about  Swedish  Match.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  exactly.  

José  Bové:   The  problem,  some  people  want  to  fight  OLAF,  other  want  to  know  how  the  Commission  is  working  and  how  the  links  are  with  the  big  companies.    In  this  moment  it's  tobacco  but  could  be  other  ones,  pesticides  or  other  ones.    So  there's  a  real  problem  of  conflict  of  interest  and  transparency  in  all  the  European  institutions.    So  this  is  really  a  big  mess.  

  The  same  time  you  saw  this  problem,  this  new  problem,  so  that's  why  it's  getting  bigger  and  bigger  every  day.    The  problem  we  have  with  another  old  member  of  the  European  institution,  with  Mr  [Petite],  you  heard  about  it?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  yeah,  yeah.  

José  Bové:   Which  is  now  working  on  further  commissioners  to  find  the  good  way  to  work  and  blah-­‐blah.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Ethic  committee.    

José  Bové:   Ethic  committees,  but  he  went  out  of  the  institution,  cabinet  lawyer  and  working  for  Philip  Morris.    So  each  time  a  new  step  is  going  up,  up  and  up  and  people,  of  course,  in  this  parliament  want  to  understand.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  know  and  I  appreciate  that  and  we...  

José  Bové:   Sell  their  souls.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  also  want  to  understand.  

José  Bové:   But  you  are  in  the  bad  place  because,  of  course,  it  will  not  be  possible  for,  because  it's  clear  for  me  that  I  think  most  of  the  parliamenters,  the  

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Swedish  parliamenters,  are  going  to  try  to  help  you  because  this  is  cultural.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Not  only  cultural,  I  think  they  also...  

José  Bové:   I  can  understand.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   It's  fair.    

José  Bové:   It's  fair  for  them  because  they  believe  in  it  and  they  understand  and  they  knew  that  this  is  a  part  of  their  story  also.    So  I  think,  but  it's  not  going  to  be  because  now  if  snus  is  put  in  the  directives  saying  okay  snus  can  be  sold  everywhere,  that  means  that  the  end  of  the  story  you're  saying  well  Swedish  Match  made  this  job  only  to  be  sure  that  they  could  be  put  on  the  market.    It's  terrible.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That's  terrible.    It's  a  catch  22  situation.  

José  Bové:   For  you  it's  terrible  because  on  one  side  or  the  other  you  will  still  be  in  the  bad  situation.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Can  I  ask  you    question?    Do  you  think,  I  mean  you  know  problems  and  we  recognise  them,  maybe  we  shouldn't  have  reported  it.    Maybe  we  should  just  have  forgotten  about  it  and  just  said  we  don't  know  what  you're  talking  about.  

José  Bové:   No,  I  believe  you  had  to  do  it.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We  had  to  do  it.  

José  Bové:   I  think  it's  very  important  what  you  did.    Maybe  this  story  was  used  by  other  people,  for  the  moment  I'm  not  able  to  say  clearly  who  wanted  to  do  it,  but  the  fact  is  that  this  was  useful  for  some  people.    Why?    For  the  moment  it's  not  possible.    Clear  the  parliament  is  not  able  to  investigate  on  our  situation.    We  don't  have  the  OLAF  report.    This  is  completely  incredible.    So  this  is...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Mr  [unclear  71:49]  has  a  copy  already.  

José  Bové:   But  for  the  moment  is  has  not  been  put  in,  all  the  presidents  want  to  have  the  investigation,  to  be  able  to  read  it  and  to  be  able  to  take  out  the  story.    It's  not  going  to  be  published,  of  course,  but...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   To  understand.  

José  Bové:   We  have  to  understand.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I've  heard  that  he  has  a  copy  in  his  safe.    I  don't  know  if  it's  true.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Nobody  wants  to  read  it,  it  seems,  also.  

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Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  he  has  read  it,  or  I  read  that  the  legal  service  [unclear  72:22]  have  read  it,  but  I  don't  know.    I  read  so  much.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  I'm  just  a  little  tobacco  lobbyist.    How  could  I  know?  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  think,  for  us,  we  believe  in  what  we're  doing.    We  have  to  work  and  try  to,  we  hope  that  we  will  make  a  difference  with  our  events  because  we  have  a  really,  really  good  case.    If  it  doesn't  work  this  time,  we'll  come  back  in  10  years  and  we  can  sit  there  and  I  can  tell  you  about  snus  statistics.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   And  you  will  see  in  10  years  that  in  Sweden  no  one  is  smoking  and  everyone  in  Europe  is  smoking  all  the  same.  

José  Bové:   So  the  Finland  are  very  angry  also.    Maybe  you  can  have  some  help  from  people  from  Finland.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Yeah,  they  use  it.    The  Finland  [unclear  73:09]  they  closed  three  traditional  old,  really  old  companies  producing  snus.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   That  were  200  years  old  and  been  producing  snus  for  the  Finns.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Closed.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   This  is  traditional  product.    Just  because  you're  going  to  be  part  of  the  European  Union  where,  no.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   And  the  poor  Danish,  they  believed  that  they  could  sell  this  in  loose  form.    Those  poor  Danes  are  getting  it  now  so  the  Commission's  starting  an  infringement  procedure  against  the  Danish  loose  snus  manufacturers  and  they're  going  to  shut  down.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   They're  all  small,  very  small  companies,  family  owned  and  traditional.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   50,000  Danish  people  use  it.    Mostly  old  people.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   When  you  make  invention,  Swedish  Match,  the  same  as  Philip  Morris  International,  I  think  the  [unclear  74:03],  how  you  say  that  in  English,  the  projection  concerning  the  market,  the  European  market  for  business.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   If  I  understand  the  JV  correctly...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It's  a  very  separate  part  from  Swedish  Match.    We  are  not  involved  at  all  in  really  what  they  are  doing,  at  least  not  -­‐  we  are  so  closed  off,  and  it  has  nothing  to  do  with  Europe.    There  are  no  market  plans  or  anything.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   I  thought  it  was  a  50:50  share  on  the  European  market.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No,  no,  no.  

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Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Between  Philip  Morris  and  the  Swedish  Match.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   No,  what  I  understand  from  the  JV,  and  we  should  probably  check  this,  but...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   If  you're  interested,  I  can  get  more  information.  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  yeah,  yeah,  the  more  information  we  have,  the  better.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   The  JV's  not  engaged  in  Europe,  EU,  because  it's  illegal  to  sell  here.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yes,  and  there's  no  business  plans  that  I  know.    There's  no  calculations  on  the  market.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   So  what  they're  doing  is,  we  provide  a  product  and  you,  Philip  Morris,  put  it  on  the  market  in,  but...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  think  it's  very  important  to  say  that  Swedish  Match  has  tried.    As  we  are  excluded  from  our  home  market,  our  home  market  is  the  European  Union  but  we  are  not  to  be  there,  so  as  any  company  we  would  like  to  expand,  of  course.    But  that  has  been,  of  course,  I  think  we  have  tried  in  some  countries  but  it  doesn't  take  off  really.    We  tried  in  South  Africa.  

  So  this  is  my  take  on  it,  I  will  study  more,  I  will  send  you  more  information,  is  that...  

José  Bové:   Maybe  Australia.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   No,  Australia  is  banned  also.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   In  South  Africa,  Philip  Morris  bought  a  Swedish  Match  company  in  South  Africa  in  2009.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Did  they?  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Yeah,  in  September.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   You  know  more  than  I.    We  used  to  have  snus,  matches  and  all  of  that  and  cigars.    Cigars.    We  had  cigars  and  pipe  tobacco  [unclear  76:09]  and  we  sold  most  of  the  cigars,  pipe  tobacco,  cigarette  [unclear  76:14]  to  another  company  in  2009  or  '10  and  maybe  one  deal  where  we  sold  the  smoking  was  in  South  Africa  to  Philip  Morris,  but  most  of  the  asset  in  the  cigar,  pipe  tobacco,  cigarillo  field  we  sold  to  Scandinavian  Tobacco  in  Denmark.    We  still  own  a  part  of  that  company  but  they  do  mostly  it's  premium  cigars  and  this  cigarillos.    We  had  a  large  manufacturing  in  The  Netherlands  actually.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  think  we  shouldn't  talk  too  much  about  that,  but  there  is  information  about  it  there.    We  would  like  to  provide  you  with  what's  going  on,  but  

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clearly  the  JV  was  a  strategy  to,  I  think  created  for  Swedish  Match  said  they  need  help  to  find  other  markets.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Other  legal  markets.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Other  legal  markets  outside  and  what  they  are  having,  they  have  a  project  in  Russia  with  a  JV  but  it  doesn't  go  well.    

José  Bové:   China.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Taiwan.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   [Unclear  77:29]  get  into  China  [unclear  77:31]  Chinese  tobacco  market  just  swallows  you.  

José  Bové:   Taiwan  okay?  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  but  Taiwan,  it  didn't  work  out...  

José  Bové:   Another  bad  experience  then.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Everything  we  touch  goes  to  ashes,  but  we  can  find  out  more  about  the  JV.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Absolutely.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   But  I  think  it's  mostly  to  get  some  muscles  behind  the  products  so  that  the  deal  is  we  provide  a  product  and  they  are  supposed,  with  their  marketing  people,  to  put  it  on  the  market.    Maybe  it's  difficult  to  communicate  this  product  in  Taiwan,  to  tell...  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Especially  if  it's  done  by  cigarette  people.    What  I  think  is  wrong  with  the  JV,  I  want  this  to  become  a  huge  global  success  but  the  JV  people  do  not  understand  this.    They  are  cigarette  people.    They  don't  understand  and  we  are  not  cigarette  people.    We  are  so  far,  we  are  actually,  can't  say  this  officially  but  we  are  anti  cigarettes.    We  do  believe  that  this  is  a  very,  very  good  means  to...  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   For  a  concept  at  least  it's  better  than  cigarettes.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Absolutely.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Much  dangerous.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   95  to  99  per  cent.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   It's  clear  you  find  scientific  proof.  

José  Bové:   But  the  best  is  pipe  for  that.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  When  you  get  tired,  we  have  the  product  for  you.    When  you  can't  smoke.  

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Johann  Gabrielsson:   Yeah,  in  plane  for  example,  allow  you  to...  

José  Bové:   When  I  am  not  allowed,  I  don't  smoke.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   You  have  a  strong  character.  

José  Bové:   I  know  it  so  it's  not  a  problem.    Many  years  from  now  we  could  smoke  in  planes.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   I  remember.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I  used  to  work  for  the  United  Nations  before  I  joined  the  Commission  and  that  time  I  had  a  Greek  colleague  who  smoked  heavily  and  this  was  in  the  beginning  of  2000.    That  was  at  the  time  when  you  stopped  smoking  in  planes.    When  he  had  to  fly  anywhere  in  the  world,  he  had  to  fly  Turkish  Airlines  because  they  were  the  only  ones  allowed.    So  it  didn't  matter.    It  could  be  36  hours  flight  that  normally  could  go  in  12,  just  so  he  could  sit  there.  

José  Bové:   Maybe  he  was  afraid  in  planes.    Okay.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  Okay,  thank  you  very  much  for  your  time.  

José  Bové:   Thank  you.    No,  no,  I  think  it  was  a  pleasure.    It  was  good  to  discuss  like  this.    We  are  clear.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   If  there  is  any  more  follow  up...  

José  Bové:   Yeah,  yeah,  okay.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   Answer  them  as  to  the  best  of  our  ability.  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Just  if  we  could  somehow  -­‐  it  would  have  been  very  nice  to  meet  you  if  this  Dalli  thing  would  not  have  happened  where  we  actually  could  have  an  interesting  discussion.    I  know  you're  a  great  friend  of  good  traditional  products  and  actually  this...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:  We're  quite  proud  of  our  product.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   It's  actually  like  a  national  dilemma  or  sadness  for  the  Swedes.    It's  something  that  they're  proud  of,  they  think  that  there  is...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   People  say  it's  like  banning  French  wine  but  only  allow  Finnish  vodka.    People  don't  get  it  through  their  heads.    They  don't  get  it.    

José  Bové:   If  European  Union  says  in  some  years  that  it  could  happen,  they  are  going  to  ban  foie  gras...  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   You  know  what?    I  would  fight  with  you.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   I'm  there.  

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José  Bové:   Problem  is,  foie  gras  is  so  good  for  health.  

[Overspeaking  81:04]  

Jean-­‐Marc  Desfilhes:   Everything  is  recorded.  

José  Bové:   That's  why  I  say  it.    I  can  understand  this  clearly.  

Johann  Gabrielsson:   Maybe  in  10  years  then,  we'll...  

José  Bové:   I  hope  I'm  not  going  to  be  here  in  10  years.  

Cecilia  Kindstrand-­‐Isaksson:   If  you're  here  we'll  hunt  you  down.