UNDISCLOSED,theStatev.AdnanSyedEpisode5Autopts

June8,2015

[0:00]TodaysepisodeofUndisclosedisbroughttoyoubySquarespace.Squarespaceistheeasiestwaytocreateabeautifulwebsite,blog,oronlinestoreforyouandyourideas.Squarespacefeaturesanelegantinterface,beautifultemplates,andincredible24/7customersupport.TrySquarespaceatsquarespace.comandenteroffercodeUNDISCLOSEDatcheckouttoget10%off.SquarespaceBuilditBeautiful.[0:34]RabiaChaudryOnFebruary9th,1999,HaeMinLeesbodyisfoundinLeakinPark.Shesdiscoveredinashallowgrave,herbodyturnedonitsrightside,coveredbydirt,leaves,andlargerocks.ShestakentotheMedicalExaminersOfficethesamedaytoconductanautopsy,andlaterthatmonth,intheearlymorninghoursofFebruary28th,JayleadsthedetectivestoHaescar,whichhasbeenabandonedwithinacoupleofmilesfromtheburialsite.Now,thestorytoldbyJayandthenadoptedbytheStateasthetheoryofthecrimeisthis:thatonJanuary13th,HaeMinLeeleftschoolarounddismissaltimeat2:15p.m.,shewaskilledinhercarbyAdnanby2:36p.m.,herbodywasputinthetrunkofherNissan,andthenshewasburiedaround7p.m.thatsamedaybyAdnanandJay.Now,inanyinvestigation,thecrimescenesandautopsyshouldyieldevidencethatsupportstheStatescase.Inthiscase,thecrimescenesaretheburialsiteandHaescar.Thequestionthenisthis:whethercluesfromthecrimescenesandtheautopsyreportlineupwiththestorythatwasofferedbyJayandtheprosecution.Today,wellfindout.Weregoingtostartwiththecar,whichwastheallegedsceneofHaesmurder.Now,therearethreemajorthingswehavetoexaminewhenitcomestothecar:first,theconditionofthecaritselfanditssurroundinglocationsecond,whetherornotJayhadpersonalknowledgeofthecaranditscontentsandthird,therelationshipofthecartotheStatesnarrativeofhowHaewasactuallykilled.[2:15]SusanSimpsonHaescarwasfoundintheearlymorninghoursofFebruary28th,1999.Afterhisfirstinterview,JaygotintoacarwithdetectivesRitzandMacGillivary,andtheydrovedowntothesouthwesterndistrictofBaltimore,wheretheyfoundHaescarbackbehindsomerowhomesinagrassyarea.AlthoughJayapparentlyledthecopstothecarafterhisinterview,inthetapedportionoftheinterviewitselfhedoesntactuallydescribewherethecarwaslocatedorwhatthecrossstreetswereorhowthecopscouldhavefounditontheirown.Thismeansthatthatpartofthediscussionmusthavehappenedbeforethetaperecorderwasturnedonbecausetheresnowaythecopsfinallygettheirstarwitness,havehimsay,Oh,Iknowwherethecaris,andthendontaskhimfortwohourstodescribewherethecarwaslocated.

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[3:00]RabiaChaudryYeah,Icouldseeitmakessensethat,um,theymusthavegoneoverhisstorybeforeturningonthetape,uh,becausethatsreallywhattheyrelookingforatthispoint.Thebodysalreadybeenfound.ButwhatweactuallymentionedearlierwasthatJayactuallyhadtoldthecopsinhisstatementthathehadgonebythecarbeforeinhisnormalroutine,soitiskindofoddthathewasunablethentoidentifyexactlywherethecarwas.[3:21]SusanSimpsonAnd,infact,theyreferredtothecarasbeingonEdmundson.Inreality,itwasseveralblockssouthofthat.Theproblemis,though,actually,wehavetwodifferentlocationslistedforwherethecarwasfound:mostofthereportssay300Edgewood,whichistheplacethatwasusedattrial,buttheresonereportthatidentifiesthelocationofthecaras600Edgewood,whichwould,infact,beoffofEdmondsonAvenue.AndthatsinterestingbecauseitkindoffitsmorewithotherstatementsthatJayhasmade,likehisstatementthatthefalsetrunkpoplocationonEdmundsonwasfourblocksawayfromwherethecarwasleft.Well,itsonlyfourblocksawayifthecarwasactuallyonEdmundsonitselfandnotsouthofitlikethecopssayattrial.[4:00]ColinMillerThewholethingistroublingtomebecausethemainthingthatmakesalotofpeoplethinkthatJaywasinvolvedishimtellingthecopswherethecaris.Andifthatsrecordedweveplayedtheaudio,andyoucansortofhearwhatsgoingon.Here,apparently,wererelyinguponthefactthatJaytoldthemthelocationinthepreinterview,butwehavenonotesonthat.Theresnorecording.Andso,thesedifferentlocations,600Edgewoodversus300,isthatthecopsmakingthatup?IsthatJay?Youknow,whatsthecontextexactly?Iwishwehadthatinformation.[4:30]SusanSimpsonWell,actually,the600Edgewoodreport,theonethatliststhatasthelocation,isareportofJennsinterview.Idontknowwhattomakeofthatbecauseshesaysshehasnoideawherethecaris,soitsunclearwhyapolicereportofherinterviewwouldlistanylocationforthecar,letalonethewronglocation.[4:46]ColinMillerTheonlymentionof600EdgewoodeverisinJennsinterview?[4:50]SusanSimpsonItsinareportofherinterview.[4:51]ColinMillerOkay.[4:52]SusanSimpsonSowhenthecopsdidthesummaryofwhatshesaid,theyincludeastatementsayingthecarwasfoundat600Edgewood.AtthetimethatJayleadsthecopstothecar,thecarhasbeenthereforsixweeks,sopresumablypeopleintheneighborhoodwhowereparkingnexttothiscaranddrivingpastiteverydaywouldhaveseenitthere.However,thecopsdidnttalktoanyoneintheneighborhood,sowehavenoideaiftheynoticeditornotoriftheydseenthecarbeingmovedinthattimeperiod.Theydidntknockonasingledoororleaveacardonanycarnearbytoaskthosepeopleiftheydwitnessedanything.

[5:26]ColinMIllerYeah,andtheyeasilycouldhavebecausewefoundinthefilesthat,actually,oneofthedetectiveswhowenttothescenedrewadiagramoftheparkingareaandwrotedownthelicenseplatenumbersofallthecarssurroundingHaescar.Inaddition,wehavesomephotographs,includingonethatwehavethatsgoingtobelinkedonourwebsite,andtheresaweirdthingaboutthatphotographbecauseifyoulookatit,underneathHaesSentrathegrassappearstobeprettygreen.Now,ifyourecall,thetheoryhereisthatthecarwasditchedthereonJanuary13th.ItsfoundonFebruary28th,soitsboththewinter,anditssupposedlythereforaboutsixweeks.Anditseemshardtoexplainhow,thecarsittingthereforsixweeks,thegrassunderneaththecarwouldbegreenandnotshowinganysignsofwearandtear.[6:15]SusanSimpsonAnditsnotjustthegrassunderthecarthatbothersmeitsthegrassonthecar,specifically,inthewheelwell.Itsgreen,too.Youcanseeit.So,thatgrassgotkickedupintothecarswheelwellswhenitdroveinthere.Itsbeennotconnectedtothegrounditsbeensittingthereforsixweeksonthesideofthecar,anditsstillgreen.[6:34]ColinMillerYeah,andthedetectivessaytheydidntmovethecaratallbeforetheytookthephotos.Sothephotothatyouseeonourwebsiteifyougothere,thatistheconditionofthecar,theplacementwhentheyfoundthatcar.[6:44]RabiaChaudrySothiscouldmeanthatthecar,infact,wasmovedtothatlocationmuchmorerecentlythansixweeks,right?[6:52]SusanSimpsonYeah,andIwishtheydlookedintoitbyjustaskingsomeonenearby.[6:55]RabiaChaudryButwhatabouttheconditionofthecaritself?Tome,thefactthat,youknow,theresbeenicestorms,therehavebeenotherstormssincethiscarwasapparentlyditched,thecarlooksremarkablycleanontheoutsidetome.[7:04]ColinMillerYeah,Imean,itlookstomelikeacarthatsbeenparkedinsideforawhileandhasonlyrecentlybeenputthere,butImnotanautomotiveexpertsoIcantreallysaythat.Imean,listenerscancertainlylookatthephotothemselvesanddrawtheirownconclusions.[7:17]SusanSimpsonAgain,itssomethingthatcouldhavebeenverifiedbackthen,andtheresnowaytoverifyitnow.Butbysimplyaskinganeighbortothecarhadtheyseenit,thesequestionscouldhavebeenresolved.[7:34]SusanSimpsonTheinsideofthecarwasprocessedlaterthatmorningdownatheadquarters.Infact,thecopsdidntreallydoanythingatthecrimescene.Theytookthefourphotos,andtheyloadeditupandtookitbacktotheheadquarters,buttheywaiteduntiltheygottheretotakesoilsamples,sonosamplesweretakenatthe300EdgewoodDrive[sic]location,

whichisntidealpolicework.Ifyouregoingtotakesoilsamplesforcomparisontotryandprovethecarwasattheburialsiteorlinkedtosomeotherlocation,youwanttotakethesoilsampleswhereyoufindthecar,dontwanttomoveitaround,dontwanttotowitaroundandthentakesoilsamplesandhopethatsomehowtheyhaventbeencontaminated.So,thecopsprocessingofthecarwaslackinginotherways,too.Inthevehicleprocessingreport,thedetectivesfailedtofillinseveralimportantquestionsaboutthecarscondition.Forinstance,inthesectionwhereitaskedwhetherornotthecarsdoorswerelocked,theydontevencheckanything.Theydontsaywhetheritwaslockedornot.Samegoesforwhetherornottheignitionwaslocked.Theysimplydontanswerit.Theyalsodontrecordthingslikehowmuchgaswasinthecar,wheretheseatswerepositioned,oranythingelsethatmighthavehelpedtheminconcludingwholastdrovethecar.[8:42]ColinMillerYeah,andthosethingsareimportantbecauseweknowinthiscaseAdnanwasabout6tall.Jaywas64.Hae,dependingupontheaccounting,between56and58.So,youknow,dependinguponhowfarbackthatseatis,thatcouldtellusalotaboutwhothelastpersonwasorwasnttodrivethatcar.[9:01]SusanSimpsonTheydidtakefingerprintsofboththecontentsofHaescarandtheexternalportionsofthecar,andtheyfoundAdnansprintsonseveralitems,includingonacardinthetrunk,acardintheglovecompartment,andonsomefloralpaperinthebackseat.Theyalsofoundabouttwentysomethingprintsthatwerenevermatchedtoanyone.Wedontknowwhothoseprintswere.Wedontknowiftheywererelatedtothecrime.WedontknowiftheycamefromHaesfamily.Butattrial,prosecutorKevinUrickdecidedtotellthejuryinclosingargumentsthateverysingleprintfoundinthecarcamefromAdnan.Thisisfalse.Itdidnthappen.Thereslotsofprintsintherethatwehavenoideawhotheycamefrom.Idontknowifhesimplyforgottheevidenceorwhat,buthisstatementtothejurythatalltheprintscamefromAdnananditsclearhewastheoneinthecarlastisnttrue.[9:47]ColinMillerYeah,andthiswascoveredabitalsoinSerial,andjusttomakethisclear,thereisthismapthatsfoundinthecar.ThewaythatbothUrickandMurphytrytorelayittothejuryisthatAdnansfingerprintisonthemapthatcontainsLeakinPark.Thatsnottrue,andinfact,whenUrickgaveaninterviewtoTheIntercept,hetriedtomakethesameclaim,andTheInterceptsprintedacorrectionsaying,no,thatsnotright.Hispalmprintwasonthebackcoveroftheentiremapbook,buthisfingerprintabsolutelywasnotonthepagethatcontainedLeakinPark.[10:21]SusanSimpsonAnditsworthnotingthatthemapdoesntevencontaintheportionofLeakinParkwhereHaewasburied.[10:25]RabiaChaudryButitdoescontain,like,somanyofthesurroundingareasthatAdnanandHaewerenormallyin.

[10:30]SusanSimpsonLikeWoodlawnHighSchool.{10:31]RabiaChaudryRight.[10:42]SusanSimpsonBecauseoftheincompleteprocessingreportandbecauseofthelackofdetailsabouttheconditionofthecar,whatweknowaboutthecarraisesmorequestionsthanitdoesanswers,forinstance,theignitioncollar.Weknowfromdescriptionsofthephotographsthatweretakenofthecarthatitsmissing,butthisisnevermentionedinanyoftheprosecutionsreports,nevermentionedattrial,neverbroughtupagain.Butignitioncollarsdontjustfalloff.Ithadtohavegonesomewhere,anditwasmissingforareason,butnooneseemedinterestedinwhy.[11:12]ColinMillerYeah,andletsbreakthatdown.So,anignitioncollarthinkabouttheignitionforacar.Itswhereyouputyourkeyintostartthecar.Aroundtheareayouputthekeyin,thereisacircularringatleasttherewasonaNissanSentraandthereasonwhyyouwouldtakeofftheignitioncollaristogettothewiringtherearoundtheignition,anditseithertofixthecar,aprobleminthesteeringcolumn,ortohotwirethecar.Andsotheresadecentchancebecausetheredidntappeartobeotheritemstakenfromthecaritwasntsortofatheftofthecarthatthiswasherkiller,thatsomeonewhokilledherforwhateverreasondidnthavethekeysandwaspoppingofftheignitioncollartotrytohotwirethecartomoveittoanotherlocation.[11:57]SusanSimpsonSo,thatbringsustothecontentsofthecar.Now,Haescarwaskindofmessy.Ithadlotsofitemsinit,somedatingbackmonths.Sheapparentlyusedhercarasherlockerandhadalotofstuffhangingaroundinthere.Itsclearnotallthestuffinthecarisrelatedtothecrimeorhasanyrelevanceintheinvestigation,buttheresonethingthattheydidntfindthatprobablyshouldhavebeenthereiftheStatesstoryiscorrect,andthatsthebagofHotFriesthatInezButlersaysHaeboughtjustbeforesheleftcampusonJanuary13th,1999.Now,iftheStatestheoryiscorrect,Haeneverlefthercaragain,soanythingshebroughtwithherintothecarshouldvestillbeenthere.Theywerent.Forourpurposes,though,whatsmostinterestingaboutthecarcontentsiswhatJayknewaboutthembecauseifJaywasinvolvedinthemurderanddidhelpAdnancoveritup,heshouldknowdetailsaboutthecrime,right?Likewherethecaris.Okay,apparentlyhetookthemthere.Butheshouldalsoknowthingsaboutthecarandthingsaboutthemurderthatevidenceofcanbefoundatthecaroratthecrimescene.TheresacommonthemerunningthroughallofJaysknowledgeaboutthecar.Toshowthis,letsstartoffwithwhatJaysaysAdnantoldhimaboutthecrimeitself.InJaysfirstinterview,hesaysthatAdnantoldhimexactlytwodetailsaboutthemurderandhowitoccurred:hesays,first,thatAdnantoldhimthatheleftHaesshoesinthecar,andsecond,hesaysthatAdnantoldhimthatduringthemurder,Haehadkickedoffthewindshieldwiperlever.AdnandidnttellJayanything

elseaccordingtoJaynothowhegotintothecar,notwherethemurdertookplace,nothowhegotherintothetrunknothingotherthanthesetwofactsthatJaytellsthecops.Thefunnythingaboutthosetwodetails,though,isthattheyarebaseddirectlyonthevisiblecontentsofHaescar.IfsomeonehadlookedintothewindowsofHaesNissan,theywouldhaveseenhershoessittingintheopeninthebackseatofhercar,andtheywouldhaveseenthebrokenwiperleverdanglingdown.Inthatfirstinterview,theresnothingthatJayknewaboutthecrimethatanyonecouldnthaveknowniftheydsimplylookedintothewindowsofHaescar.Theresnothinginhisknowledgeofthecarorthecrimescene,whichwouldhaverequiredhimtoactuallybethere.[14:21]RabiaChaudryButthatchangesbetweenthefirstandthesecondstatementthathegivestothepolice,right?[14:26]SusanSimpsonItchangesquitemarkedly,andJaysevolutionbetweenthefirstandsecondinterviewsisprobablythemoststrikingwhenitcomestothecontentsofthecarbecause,inthefirstinterview,hisknowledgeofwhatsinthecariseitherverylimitedorverywrong,andinthesecondinterview,suddenlyandmysteriously,hecangiveaveryaccuraterecollectionofwhatwasinthecar.So,weknowwhatJaygotrightaboutthecarscontentswell,sortofright.Imean,hedidgetthefactthatHaesshoeswereonthebackseatright,butwhetherornothegotthebrokenwindshieldwiperlever,wellgettothat,andthatsacomplicatedstoryonitsownright.Still,lookingattherestofthecarscontents,wecanseewhatJaygotwrongfromhisfirstinterviewascomparedtohissecondone.Asabriefaside,alltheremainingdetailsthatJayknewaboutthecrimenotjustaboutthecarbutabouteverythinginvolvingthemurderitselfconsistofthefollowingtwofacts:first,adescriptionoftheburialsite,andsecond,adescriptionoftheclothesthatHaewasfoundwearing.However,Jaysaidhedseenimagesofthecrimesceneonanewsreport,whichmeanshewouldveknownwhatthecrimescenelookedlikewhetherhewasinvolvedwiththemurderornot.ThismeansthattheonlydetailJayknowsaboutthecrimeininterviewoneiswhatclothingHaewaswearingatthetimeofherdeath.Thatsit.Ofcourse,thecopsalsoknewwhatHaewaswearingwhenshewasfound,soitseasilypossiblethatanyinformationthatJayhadaboutthatcouldhavecomefromthecopsdirectly.[15:50]RabiaChaudrySo,wastheresomethingthatparticularlyhappenedbetweenthefirstandsecondinterviewthatwouldcausechangestohisstatement?[15:57]SusanSimpsonYeah,well,theynowknowwhatsinthecar.Theydontprocessthecaruntilabout4a.m.,5a.m.onthe28th,soafterthefirstinterview.Atthetimeofthesecondinterview,however,itsbeentwoweeks,andtheyvehadlotsoftimetolookovertheevidencelistandtotryandfigureoutwhetheritmatcheswhatJaytoldthem,anditdoesntactually.

LetsstartwiththethingsthatwereinthecarthatJaynevermentioned.First,wehavethemap,theonewithfingerprintsonitthatwetalkedaboutearlier.Itwasfoundinthebackseat,underneathHaesbackpack,so[it]wasntvisibletoanyonewhosimplylookedatthecarfromoutside.AndJaynevermentionsitinthefirstinterview.Second,wehavethebloodstainedTshirtthatwasfoundprobably,accordingtomostreports,anywayinthedriversseatwedgedintoacrevice.Itbecamepartoftheprosecutionsnarrativeattrialbecausetherewerebloodstainsonit,butthebloodstainswouldnothavebeenvisibletosomeonewhosimplyobservedthecarcasuallyordidntactuallyinspecttheTshirtitself.WhatsinterestingtomeisthatwhenthecopsaskedJayaboutthemapandthebloodyTshirtduringthesecondinterview,JaysrespondsforthefirstandonlytimesinhisinterviewswithIdontknowtoboththosequestions.ThosearetheonlytwotimesthecopsbringsomethingupandJaycantgiveananswer.Imean,Ifindthatinteresting.Idontknowifyouguysdo.Maybeitsnot,buttomeitsinterestingthattheonlytimeJaycantgiveananswertoaquestioniswhenitssomethingthatthecopsdidntknowaboutintheirfirstinterviewandonlydiscoverinbetweenbecausethoseitemswereburiedunderneathotherobjects.[17:28]RabiaChaudryRight,butIguess,tomeitslike,okay,ifbythesecondinterviewhesincludingdetailsthatwerefoundaftertheprocessing,whywouldnthejustsay,Oh,yeah,theshirt,Iknow?Imean[17:37]SusanSimpsonWell,hedoesntactuallyaddinnewstuff.Hecorrectsstuffthathegotwrong,buthedoesntjustaddinnewitemsthatwerenevermentionedatallinthefirstinterview.[17:45]RabiaChaudryHmm[17:46]SusanSimpsonInfact,mostthedetailsthatchangearethingsthatJaydidtalkaboutbutgotwrong.Iguesstheproblemishecantsuddenlybelike,Ohyeah,IrememberedAdnantellingme,Igotlost,andIusedthemapbecausewhydidnthementionthatbefore?[18:00]RabiaChaudryOhmyGod,butIthinkJaycansaywhateverthehellhewantsand[18:02]SusanSimpsonButhecant.Hecant,though.Imean,obviously,heliesalot.Hechangeshisstoryalot,soitdoesseemsometimeslikehesjustlyingandsayingwhatever,buthesnot.Thecopsdorealizetheyhaveimpeachmentproblems,andtheyaretryingtokeephisstoryroughlyconsistentwithwhathesaidinthepast,orwhentheychangeit,theywanttoexplainwhyhechangedit,likewithCathyoh,heliedtoprotecther.Buttheyreallyarentjusttotallyrewritingthescenariofromscratch.Wheretheycanavoiddoingthat,theydo.[18:32]RabiaChaudryNow,Illplaydevilsadvocatehere,okay?

[18:34]SusanSimpsonMmhmm.[18:35]RabiaChaudryIfweretoacceptJaysstorythathewasneverinHaescar,accordingtohisstory,right?AdnanwasinthiscarJaydroveAdnanscartheentiretime.Hemightveseenhercarfromtheoutside,butthatwasit.So,inaway,thaIkindofunderstandwhyhewouldonlyknowdetailsofthecarorthecontentsofthecarfrom,like,whatyoucouldkindofseefromtheoutside,likeacursoryview.Um,whatthatmightnotexplainisthenhowthatchangesinthesecondinterview.[19:01]SusanSimpsonAndwhatitdoesntexplainishowheknewthingsinthefirstinterviewthatturnedouttobewrong,likethepurse.Inthefirstinterview,JaysaysthatafterAdnanabandonedthecarattheEdgewoodDrive[sic]location,hegotoutofHaescarandbroughtherpurseandherwalletbackwithhimtohiscar.Ofcourse,theyeventuallyfindthepursesomewhereinHaescarinthebackseat.Itsnotinanobviouslocation.Itsnotinthephotographs,buttheyfindapurseandtheyfinditscontentswithoutawallet.So,whydidJaysaythatAdnanbroughtherpursebackfromthecarwhenitsclearlystillsittingthere?[19:35]RabiaChaudrybecauseyoucouldntseeitfromtheoutside.Like,itwasntapparent,right?Fromthe[inaudible][19:39]SusanSimpsonYeah.Notably,thepurseisnotactuallyitemizedinevidence,sotheonlyrecordofitisfromwhenGutierrezwentintolookattheevidenceherself,andshetookanoteandsaidinthebackseatcarcontentsthepursewasincluded.Andinthesecondinterview,afterthecopswouldvelearnedthat,yes,herpursewasstillinthecar,theresnolongeranymentionofit.JaycompletelyforgetsthathepreviouslylistedthepurseamongthecontentsthatAdnanhadremovedfromHaesvehicle.[20:04]RabiaChaudryWell,Idontknowifheforgetsit,butIthinkheconvenientlyleavesitoutbecausehegotthatdetailwrong.[20:08]SusanSimpsonAndheresprobablythebestexampleofthisphenomenon:theredandbluenylonjacket,thewindbreaker.Inthefirstinterview,hereswhatJaysaysaboutthatjacket.Hesays,Wewerewalkingbacktothegravesite

[20:22]JayWildsIseenherjacketontheground.DetectiveRitzWhatkindofjacketwasthat?

JayWildsItwasblueandred.DetectiveRitzWasitanylonjacketJayWildsYeah.DetectiveRitzclothjacket?JayWildsItwas,itwasnylon.[inaudible]type.DetectiveRitzWhereexactlywasthatontheground?JayWildsUm,inthe,inthewalkway,inthepath[Jaysfirstpoliceinterview,p.15]

[20:36]SusanSimpsonSo,onthewaybackafterburyingHaesbody,theyseethejacketagain.

[20:40]JayWildsfinishedtheholeandputHaeintherefacefirst.DetectiveRitz[]ifwecanjustbackupforasecond,Jay.Thejacketwasontheground,andyousaiditwasredandblueinthewalkway.Didanybodypickupthejacket?JayWildsOh,hepickeditup.Hepickeditup.DetectiveRitzWhatdidhedowiththejacket?JayWildsThrewit,umum,just[inaudible][Jaysfirstpoliceinterview,p.15]

[21:00]SusanSimpsonSo,wehaveJaysayingthatHaesjacketwasthrownintothewoodsorpossiblymaybeburiedwithher,althoughhebacktracksfromthat,andthiswouldexplainwhythecopsneverfoundherjacketpresumably.Problemis,oncetheyprocessthecontentsofHaescar,theyfindajacket,anditsinthetrunkofhercar,butitspresenceinthetrunkcallsallofJaysstoryintoquestion.WhyishedescribinghowAdnanthrewthejacketawayintothewoodsifitsstillsittingthereinthetrunkwhentheyopenitup?[21:28]RabiaChaudryRight,itsaveryspecificpartofthestory.Itsnotlike,uhImean,itsareallyspecificdetail,right?[21:33]SusanSimpsonImean,JayexplainstothecopswhytheyneverfoundherjacketbecauseAdnanthrewitintothewoods,andthisgoesbacktowhatIwassayingearlierabouthowthecopsreallycantjusttotallywholesalerewriteJaysstoryandhowtheytryandadaptitinmoresubtlewaysbecauseinthesecondinterview,thejacketsstillpartofthestory.ThiswholescenestillhappenswithAdnanandJaywalkingbacktotheburialsiteandseeingthejacketontheground,butitsnolongerHaesjacketinthesecondversion.Itsjustarandomjacketthattheyjusthappenedtofindandhappenedtothrowinthewoods,notHaesatall.Nothingtoseehere.

[22:04]JayWildsgetoutofhiscar,uh,bringtheshovels.Heasksmetohelphimburyher.Ah,weargue.Um,hethrowsdirtontopofher,andshewasalreadyI'msorry.Um,we,we,wepullbackintotheparkinglot,andonthewaybackthere,there'sacoatlaying[sic]ontheground.AndIsaid,Whosecoatisthat?Andhepicksitupandhe,like,flingsitwaybackinthewoods.[Jayssecondpoliceinterview,p.32]

[22:28]SusanSimpsonAndonceagainwehaveaclassicJayapologyafterheskipspartofthestorythatthecopswantedhimtotell.Inthiscase,itsthepartaboutthejacket.ThewayJaystartstotellit,heandAdnansimplywalkbacktothegraveandstartthrowingdirtintothegravesite.Hethensays,Oops,sorry!Apparently,hesbeentippedoffthathemissedsomething,andhegoesbacktodescribethejacketandhowtheypassastheyrewalkingin.Onlythistime,unlikeininterviewone,JaydoesntknowwhosejacketitisandneitherdoesAdnan.Infact,itsnobigdealatall.Adnancasuallytossesitintothewoods,andthatsthat.Somuchforthejacket.WhenthecopsgettoHaescarandopenthetrunk,theyfindafieldhockeystick,alacrossestick,anumbrella,somepapers,andthisredwindbreakerjacket,butitsnottakenintoevidence.Itsnotactuallyitemised,anditsneverdescribedanywhereinthefiles.Theytotallywriteitoutoftherecord,anditsnotpartofJaysstorywhentheygototrial.

[23:24]RabiaChaudryItsalmostliketheyknowthatifGutierrezgoesbacktoJaysfirststatement,shesgoingtofindwhathesaidaboutthatredjacket.Buttheyhavetheredjacket,sotheyneedtomakeitgoaway.Itdidntexist.Imean,mytheoryisthattherewasnojacket,and[23:39]SusanSimpsonbecauseitwassittinginthetrunkthewholetime.[23:42]RabiaChaudryRight,right[23:50]RabiaChaudryWetalkedaboutthebrokenwindshieldwiper.Itseemslikehekindofdidntgetthatrighteither,right,Colin?[23:56]ColinMillerYeah,andthisleadstosomethingIfoundprettyshocking.Certainly,afterlisteningtoSerial,IhadnoideathatthiswastheStatescontentionattrial.Ifyourecall,theStatescontentionisthatHaeisdrivinghercaruptotheconcessionstandInezButlerseeshergetoutthatswhenshegetstheHotFriesandthedrinkandsthatinthisverycompressedtimeframe,sheiskilledby2:36p.m.andisstrangledinherSentra.WhatIdidntrealizefromSerialanddidntrealizeuntilIsawtheclosingargumentis,attrial,theStatebuildsacasewhereAdnanisinthedriversseatandHaeisactuallyinthepassengerseatofhercar,andthatexplainsJaysstorythatHaekicksoffthewindshieldwiperwandinthecarwhileAdnanisstranglingher.Butitsverycomplicated,andletmetrytojustbreakthisdownintheeasiestwaytoexplainthisstoryofwhathappenswiththisbrokenlever.Inhisinitialinterviewwithpolice,JaysaysthatAdnantoldhim,whilehesstranglingHae,Haekicksandbreaksthewindshieldwiperleverinthecar.Now,ifyoulookata1998Sentra,whichwasHaescar,youhadthesteeringcolumn,i.e.thesteeringwheel.Ontheleftistheturnsignalleverthatwouldsignalaturnleftorrightontherightisthewindshieldwiperlever,whichobviouslycontrolsthewindshieldwiper.AndsoJayssayingintheinitialinterviewshekickedthewindshieldwiperlever.Thedetectivesgo,theyfindthecar,theytakephotosofthesteeringcolumn,andtheirclaimisthephotosshowthatthewindshieldwiperleverisbroken.However,latertheyrealizethephotosdontreallyshowthat.Itcouldjustbethewindshieldwiperleverinthedownposition.Problemis,atthispointintime,theyhavereleasedthecartothecustodyofHaesbrother,whohastakenittoabodyshopthatisownedbyHaesuncle,andsothisisreleasedonMarch7th.ThepolicegotothebodyshoponMarch16th,andtheytakeavideoofthebrokenlever.Now,theproblemis,wedonthavecopiesofeitherthephotographsorthevideo,sowerejustsortofrelyinguponthewordofthepolicethat,infact,thisisbroken.Andtheresaproblemwiththatbecauselaterthepolicethink,Well,eventhevideosnotgoodenough.Letstakeoffthewindshieldwiperlever.LetssendittotheTraceAnalysisUnit,andletshaveafractureexamination.Now,afractureexaminationis,whensomethingisbroken,itshouldhavebrokenedges.Soifyoubreakastick,youshouldbeabletocomparetheedgesononesidetotheotherandsay,Thisusedtobeonestick.Well,thesamethingwithalever.Youshouldbeabletosay,Ifthisis

broken,therearebrokenedges.Well,itssenttotheTraceAnalysisUnit,andthedeterminationistherearenobrokenedges.Inotherwords,thewindshieldwiperleverisnotbroken.Letsgototrialnow.So,attrialwehavethedetectivewhotookthevideo.Hetestifiesthewindshieldwiperleverontherightofthesteeringcolumnisbroken.Jay,however,testifiesthatAdnantoldholdhimHaekickedthesignalonthedriversside,i.e.theleftsideofthecar.Letsthengototrialtwo.Attrialtwo,thedetectiveagaintestifiesthewindshieldwiperleverisbroken,butnowhesaystheleversontheleftofthesteeringcolumn.JaytestifiesagainthatHaekickedtheturnsignal,which,again,isontheleftofthesteeringcolumn.Thenfastforwardtoclosingand,again,asIsaid,inclosingargument,KathleenMurphy,theprosecutor,says:WeknowJayhasconsistentlysaidthewindshieldwiperleverisbroken.IthadtobeHaeinthepassengerseatbecausethatstheonlywayshecouldhavekickedthisleverontherightofthecar,andsothatprovesthecase.Youknow,whoelsewouldbedrivingthecarexceptforAdnaninthiscase?Sincethatprovesourcasehere,Haewasinthepassengerseat.Shemusthavekickedthelever.But,again,thatsproblematicbecausethefractureexaminationshowedthewindshieldwiperleverwasntbroken,andsoIdidablogpostaboutthisandgotaresponse,interestinglyenough,fromHaesbrother.AndsoHaesbrotheristheonlyoneinthefamilywhohascommentedonthiscase,andsoletmereadfromthecommentthathepostedinresponsetomyblogpost:Iamalmost100%sure[that]itwasthe[sic]turnsignallever.Iremember[it]prettywellbecauseIwassupposedtodrivehercarbackhome.ButsincetheturnsignalleverwasHANGING/DANGLING,mygrandpadroveithome.Iwasanewdriverandwasuncomfortabledrivingitwithoutaturnsignal./u/brotherofhaeUh,sowheredoesthatleaveus?Ihonestlyhavenoidea.Whatseemscleartomeisthewindshieldwiperontherightofthecar,thatleverwasnotbroken.TheStatestheoryofthecasemakesnosense.Wastheturnsignalleverontheleftbroken?Possibly.Haesbrothersrecollectionseemstobeprettyvivid.Um,butIdontknowwhattomakeofit.Imean,Idontknow.SusanandRabia,whatdoyouthinkaboutthisbrokenleverandwhatitmeansabouttheStatescase?[28:32]SusanSimpsonWell,someonecommented,Ithink,inresponsetoyourpostthatmostcars,yes,havetheturnsignalontheleftandthewindshieldwiperontheright,butsomecarsdohavethewindshieldwiperonthelefthandside.And,infact,thekindofcarsthatthecopsweredrivinginBaltimorearethosetypesofcars.[28:49]ColinMillerYeah,so,Imean,ifyouregoingalongwiththetheorythatthecopstoldhimthisleverwasbrokenandhesrepeatingthat,thatwouldmakesense,butyeah,Imean,otherwiseits,itssotoughtoitssodense,thismaterial.Wasanythingbroken?

http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2xd15t/evidenceprof_blog_was_the_wiper_really_broken/cp0q17g

[29:01]SusanSimpsonWasitdanglingdown?[29:03]ColinMillerRight.[29:03]SusanSimpsonBecauseitbugsthehelloutofmethatwedontknowwhichorifanyoftheleverswerebroken.[29:09]RabiaChaudryTheywouldnthaveshownavideoifnothingwasbrokeninthecar,right?Theywouldnthaveshownavideoattrialofnothingbroken.Somethinghadtohavebeenvisibletothejuryforthemtobeshowingavideotobeginwith.[29:18]SusanSimpsonButthecarhadbeeninabodyshopforaweekatthatpoint,so[29:21]ColinMillerThatsthething,too,itsyeah,whysitinabodyshop?Theonlydamagewereawareofinthecaristhisallegedlybrokenlever.So,yeah,itslikewhathadhappenedintheinterim?Its,itsthereforwhatwasitIguess,March7thtoMarch16th,soaboutninedays.Hasanyonelookedatthelever?Havetheyworkedonit?Isitinthesameconditionthenthatitwaswhenthecarwasfound?So,like,Idontknow.Thatsthereschainofcustodyissues,again,intermsofwhatstheconditionoftheleverthenversusnow.Imean,itstheStatewantsittobethewindshieldwiperleverontheright,butaccordingtoYoungLeesrecollections,thetraceanalysisreportbaseduponthefractureexamination,thatwindshieldwiperleverontherightisnotbroken.Itsnotdamagedinanyway.[29:58]SusanSimpsonJaydoesntsayheeversawthiswindshieldwiperleverorthathepersonallyhadknowledgeitwasbroken.HesaysthisinfocamefromAdnan.ButifJaysstoryistrue,IfeellikeAdnanwouldhaveactuallyknownwhichitwasbecausehesgotabodyinthetrunkandhesdrivingaroundwithoutaturnsignalinthiscar.Imean,thatwouldhavetocausesomestress.Youdontwanttogetpulledoverforfailingtoindicateunderthosekindofcircumstances,andyetAdnantellsJayinsteadthatthewindshieldwipersbrokenandsaidtheturnsignal?Theresotherreasons,too,tothinkthatthewholeideathatHaewaskilledinhercardidnthappen.Inadditiontothebrokenlever,therearetwootherpiecesofevidencethattheStateusedtosupportitsargumentthatHaediedinhercar.Um,theytellthejury,Well,weknowshediedtherebecauseofthesereasons:thefirstisthebloodytshirtfoundinhercar,andthesecondistheDonnote,whichwasfoundinhertrunkandisproofthatshediedbeforeshegotachancetogowherevershewasgoing.Butnoneofthesethingsactuallyshowifshewaskilledinhercar,andtheStatedidnothingtofindevidencethatcouldhaveshownshereallywaseitherkilledinhercarorhadherbodykeptinthecarafterherdeath.Infact,theresneveranyforensictestingdonetoshowthateitherHaewaskilledthereorthatthebodywasinthetrunk.Theydonteventestthebacklinerofthecar.TheydoseizethelinerofthetrunkfromAdnanscar,andinfact,inoneoftheirreports,theyclaimthat

AdnanscarwasusedtotransportHaesbody,whichisweirdbecauseJaysstoriesneverincludethatdetail,sowhoknowswherethatcamefrom.Buttheresneveranytestingofthesoilsamplestaken[sic]hercar.Theresneveranytestingofthehairfoundinthefrontdriversseatandthefrontpassengerseatofhercar.Theresneveranyforensictestingofthetrunk,thefrontseats,theliners[31:43]ColinMillerYeah,andits,itssofrustratingbecausewementionedinthelastepisodethattheyhadcadaverdogsgoingaroundWoodlawnbecausetheywerelookingforthebodyandifyouvefollowedcasesliketheCaseyAnthonycasetheyveryeasilycouldhavehadthesecadaverdogssniffingtheliner,thetrunk,etc.todeterminewhetherthere,infact,wasahumanbodythatwasinthattrunkforanyperiodoftime.[32:06]SusanSimpsonAndthatbringsustowhats,tome,themostblatantlietoldbytheprosecutionattrial,andthatisMurphysclaiminclosingargumentsthatthesportingequipmenthadbeenmovedfromthetrunktothebackseattomakeroomforHaesbody,andthatshowweknowthatherbodywaskeptinthetrunk.Infact,allthesportingequipmentwasstillinthetrunk.Itsstillbacktherewiththeumbrella,withthejacket,withtheletters.Idontevenknowhowshecouldmakethatclaimbecausethitsjustwrong.ShesclaimingthatsomeonemaderoomforthebodyinthetrunkoftheSentra,which,one,isfactuallyincorrectand,two,showstheproblemwiththeideathatHaesbodywasinthetrunkinthefirstplacebecauseallthatstuffwasstillinthetrunk,andaSentrasnotabigcar.Itshardtoseehowshecouldhavefitinthere,assumingsomeonecouldveactuallyindividuallytransportedherbodyfromthefrontorpassengerseattothetrunkinbroaddaylight.Assumingthattheygetitthere,howdtheyfititintherewithallthatstuffstillthere?[32:58]ColinMillerYeah,Imean,therearpassengercompartmentinthe98Sentrawas48inches,soyouwouldimagineaboutfourfeetforthattrunk,Haebetween56and58.Its,itstoughtoseeanyonestranglingherinthecarandthentransportingherandbeingabletofitherintothattrunkofthatSentra.[33:17]RabiaChaudryButtheresanotherreallyimportantreasonthatthatdoesntmakesense.Now,rememberthereareatleasttwocrimescenesaccordingtotheStateatthispoint,right?Wehavetheburialsiteandwehavethecar.BotharereallyimportantsupportingtheStatesnarrative,butifwetakeacloserlookattheautopsyreport,whatweseeis,infact,nothingaboutthesecrimescenesnottheburialsiteandnotHaescarsupportstheStatestheory.Now,anotetoourlisteners:whatwearegoingtodiscussnextmightbealittlebitdifficulttolistentoforsomeofyou.Itcanbedisturbingtosomepeople,butitisimmenselyimportant.ItisimportantnotjusttofiguringoutwhetherornottheStatesnarrativewastrue,butitsimportantintermsoffiguringoutwhatreallyhappenedtoHae.Andthatistheautopsyreport.So,weregoingtogointosomedetailsaboutthebody,abouttheautopsy,aboutwhatthemedicalexamshowed,

andwewouldntbedoingthisandwewouldntbegoingsomuchindepthonthisifitwasntvitaltounderstandingwhathappenedtoHaeonJanuary13th.[34:33]ColinMillerIgotthechancetotalktoDr.LeighHlavatyabouttheevidencewehaveinthiscase.ShestheDeputyChiefMedicalExaminerfortheWayneCountyMedicalExaminersOfficeinDetroit,Michigan.ShesalsoaClinicalAssistantProfessorof[Anatomic]PathologyattheUniversityofMichigan.ShegraciouslyagreedtoreviewtheautopsyreportforHaeMinLee,theautopsyphotos,andthetestimonybytheMedicalExaminerwhoconductedtheautopsy.Beforewestart,afewcaveats:first,theautopsyphotosareblackandwhite,andtheyrefairlylowresolution.Second,unfortunately,theStatesfiledoesntincludeanyphotosofHaesbodyasitwasfoundinLeakinParkandbeforeitwasdisinterred.Onelastnote:soundqualityonDr.Hlavatysendisntgreat.Weresorryaboutthat,butwethoughtthatwhatshehadtosaywassointerestingthatitwasworthhearinghersayitinherownwords.Duringourconversation,wetalkedaboutoneoftheautopsyreportfindings,whichIfoundtobeespeciallyodd,andthathadtodowiththehemorrhagesthatwerefoundonHaeshead.LetslistentomyquestionandDr.Hlavatysresponse.Again,Iapologizeformyrecordingequipmentandthequalityofsoundonherend.

[35:38]ColinMillerTheautopsyreportforHaeMinLeesaysthatshehadafocalrighttemporalismusclehemorrhage,andshealsohadafocalrightoccipitalsubgalealhemorrhage.Andso,whatdothosetwothingsmean?Dr.HlavatyWell,thetemporalismusclehemorrhageisabruiseinthemusclethatislocatedaboveyourrightear,thatisvisibleafteryourscalpisreflected.Soitsthemusclethatslocatedbetweenthescalpandyourskull.Andtherightoccipitalsubgalealhemorrhageisabruisethatisactuallyontheundersurfaceofthescalpitself,ontherightbackofthehead.Astowhatthesemean,wehavetothinkagainaboutthelividitypatternintheheadbecausewhenbloodpoolsinthescalpduetobodyposition,itcansometimesmimicthesesubscalphemorrhages.Uh,inthiscase,becausetheresthisfullfrontalanteriorlividity,thesebruisesontherightsideandtherightbackofherheadmeanthatthesearetwobluntforceimpactstoherheadthatshesustainedwhileshewasalive.ColinMillerObviously,youdonthavethefullevidencetobeabletoseetheextentofthesehemorrhages,butbaseduponthedescriptionintheautopsyreport,doyouthinkthesehemorrhagesareconsistentwithblowsthatcouldhaverenderedLeeeitherstunnedorunconscious?Dr.Hlavaty

Yes,itispossiblethatshecouldhavebeenmomentarilystunnedorrenderedunconsciouswithoneoreitheroftheseblows.

[37:09]ColinMillerIaskedDr.HlavatyaboutwhethertheseheadwoundscouldbeconsistentwithwhattheStatearguedduringitsclosingargument,whichagain,wasthatHaewassittinginthepassengerseatofhercarwhenshewaskilled.Shetoldmeitwaspossible.ItsalsopossiblethatHaewasinthedriversseat.ItsalsopossiblethatHaewasnteveninhercar.AccordingtoDr.Hlavaty,thewoundsareconsistentwithanybroadflatobjectstrikingherheadwithenoughforce.Thatcouldbeafist.Itcouldbeahand.Itcouldbeadashboard.Itcouldbeawindow.Anytypeofbroadflatobjectyoucanimaginewouldbeconsistentwiththoseheadwounds.[37:52]RabiaChaudryIthinkwhenIfirst,uh,understoodtheimportanceofthehemorrhagingandhowitwouldhaveledtoHaebeingincapacitated,Imean,itterrifiedmeinadifferentway,uh,intermsofimaginingwhatactuallyhappenedtoher.Youknow,itsonethingif,letssay,theresanargumentorintheheatofpassion,somebodyendsupgettingkilledbecausetheyrestrangled.Andweseethissometimesinmoviesorfilmwhere,youknow,onepersongrabsanotherpersonaroundtheneck.Itsanentirelydifferentscenarioifsomebodyhasbeenknockedoutandthenstrangled,right?Thatssomuchmoredeliberate.Itsnotheatofpassion,necessarily.Italsomeansthatthepersonislyingproneonthegroundwhentheyrebeingkilled,andtheimaginationjustenvisionsitvery,verydifferentlyatthatpoint,thatthisissomebodywhoisalreadyoutcoldandthepersonwantedtofinishthemoff.[38:42]SusanSimpsonItseemsmoreintentionaltome,too.Atfirst,IwaswonderingwhytheStatewouldntarguethatbecauseitdoessupportthepremeditationcaseasopposedtotheheatofpassion,butitgoesbacktoJaynothavingitpartofhisstory.[38:54]ColinMillerYeah,anditsinterestingtome.Imean,its,its,itssad,butinlookingatresearchandstudiesonstrangulation,whatyoumosttypicallyfindarenailmarksandotherinjuriesnotfromtheactualassailantbutfromthevictimbecausetheyretryingtogetthehandsoffoftheirthroat.AndtherearenosignshereofastruggleonbehalfofHae,andHae,again,fairlyathletic,56to58.Andyouwouldthinkthatshewouldfightbackbutnotifshewasrenderedunconsciousorstunnedbasedupontheblowsleadingtothesehemorrhages,andsoitcertainlyseemslikethiswasntjustastrangulation.Thiswassomethingwherethepersonhitherprettyhardacoupleoftimesatleastbeforewehadtheactofstrangulation.[39:34]SusanSimpsonAndshehadnodefensivewoundsatall.AndIjustdont[39:37]ColinMillerRight.[39:37]SusanSimpsonbuythatshewouldnthavefoughtback,especiallyifshewaskilledinacar.Thatsalreadyaawkwardpositionorahardpositionforthattohappen,andfightingbackcouldhavehelpedher.Idontbelievethatshewouldnthavefoughtback.

[39:47]RabiaChaudryYeah,andacarsaprettyclosespace,soyouknow,werenottalkingaboutanopenspacethatevenifshefoughtbacktherewouldnthavebeendamage,necessarily,tosee.Inacar,ifyouarefightingphysically,therehastobemmoredamagethatsapparent.Ihadaquickquestion,Colin,or,orbothofyou.Um,inyourtalkswithpeople,youknow,whoaremedicalexaminersorpathologistsorwhatever,aretheyjustbasicallytakingtheconclusionthatshewasstrangledfromthereport,orcantheylookatthedescriptionofthebodyitselfandalsocometothesameconclusion?Like,doweknowforsureshewasevenstrangled,Iguess,ismyquestion.[40:19]ColinMillerI,Ivehadatleastafewpeoplesaytheyreviewedthematerials,andwithouthesitationtheirconclusionisthatthiswasastrangulation.[40:28]RabiaChaudryOkay,okay.[40:29]SusanSimpsonItwasinterestingtometotalktomedicalexaminersaboutitbecausetheirapproachwassodifferentfromalegalapproachandhowtheyevaluatedit.Andtheydsay,Well,yeah,itwasstrangulation.Probably.Imean,wecantruleoutanythingelse,butuntilwehaveanotherproposedmechanism,wellgowithstrangulation.So[40:45]RabiaChaudryThatsodd.[40:46]SusanSimpsonMedicyeah.So,medically,theseinjuriesdonotruleoutanothertypeofdeath,buttheyrefullyconsistentwithstrangulation,sotheyregoingwiththat.[41:02]ColinMillerIalsospokewithDr.HlavatyaboutsomethingthatsalwaysbotheredmeabouttheStatestheoryabouttheactofstrangulationandhowitfitintotheirnarrowtimeframeinwhichHaewassupposedlykilled.Heresmyquestion,andheresheranswer:

[41:15]ColinMillerSo,inthiscase,theStatehadaprettytighttimelinebecausetheyweretryingtoclaimtothejuryduringclosingargumentthatintheimmediateaftermathofschool,LeewastakentoaBestBuyandwasstrangledintheparkinglotbeforeherassailantmadeaphonecallfromtheBestBuypayphoneat2:36p.m.Andaspartofthecasemadetothejuryduringclosingargument,theStatesaidthathermurdererstrangledLeeforabout10seconds,producingdeath.Isthatconsistentorinconsistentwithyourunderstandingofthetimethatittakestofatallystranglesomeone?Dr.HlavatyThatisdefinitelyinconsistent.Strangulationisamultistepprocessthattakesseveralminutesofpressureontheneck.Atfirst,therestheperiodofstrugglewherethegripontheneckcannotbeconstantlyortightlymaintained.Now,admittedly,thelengthofthisstruggleisgoingtodifferineachcaseandis,thus,unknown.Andthatsbecauseitwilldependonthesizeandthestrengthofthevictimandtheassailant,uh,whetherornotthe

victimwasrestrainedinanyway,orwhetherthevictimwasincapacitatedeitherbyanytrauma,uh,anydrugsintheirsystem,orbyanyunderlyingmedicalcondition.Now,inthiscase,thetwobluntforceimpactstoherheadcouldhaveincapacitatedherand,thus,shortenedthisstruggleperiod.But,eventually,inallstrangulationcasesthevictimisoverwhelmed.Uh,and,andconsciousnessis,isusuallylostwithinseconds,um,althoughitsusuallyunder30seconds.Uh,10isreallyasortofarbitrarynumber.Afterconsciousnessislost,thepressurethenhastobemaintainedtightlyandconstantlyforanadditionaltwotothreeminutesinorderfordeathtooccurbecausethatshowlongyourbraincellscanlastwithoutoxygenbeforetheydie.Soifpressurewasplacedontheneckandthenreleasedafterthelossofconsciousness,thevictimwillregainconsciousnessontheirown.Therearestudiesoutthereintheliteratureaboutnearstrangulationvictimsthatsupportthis.Now,clearly,thereisapointofnoreturnwherethecentersofyourbrainthatcontrolyourheartrateandyourbreathingareaffectedbythelackofoxygen,andresuscitationisneededinordertopreventdeath.Uh,butthispointofreturnisvariablebecauseitwilldependoneachpersonandis,thus,unknown.Butthesenearstrangulationstudiessupportthatthatpointofnoreturnismuchclosertotheminutesendthan,uh,thesecondsend.

[43:51]ColinMillerIalsoaskedDr.Hlavatyaboutthefindingofrigormortisinthiscasebecauseitseemedinconsistentwithmybasicunderstandingofthetimeframeforrigormortis.First,Iaskedhertoexplainwhatrigormortisisandhowitworks.

[44:04]Dr.HlavatyRigormortisisthestiffeningofthebodysmusclesthatoccursafterdeath.Uh,itsactuallyachemicalprocessthatoccurstothebodyafterdeathbecausethebodyisnolongerabletomaketheATPneededtobreaktheactinmyosincomplexeswithinmusclecells.Iknowthatsalittletootechietherefortheaudiencebut,uh,itbecomesevidentabouttwotofourhoursafterdeath,anditstartsinthesmallermusclegroupslikethejaw,andthenitwillspreadtothearmsandthelegs.Uh,ittakesuptoeighttotwelvehourstobecomefullydeveloped.Fullydevelopedmeansthatthebodyiscompletelystiff.Itwillremainfullydevelopedforabouteighttotwelvehours,andthenitwilltakeanadditionaleighttotwelvehoursto,uh,disappearorforthethebodytobecomeflaccidagain.Anditwilldisappearinthesameorderofmusclesasitappeared.Now,ifyouhappentomanipulatethebodyafterrigormortisisfullydeveloped,meaning,say,youturntheheadoryoubendalimb,youbreaktherigorinthatpartofthebody,andthenthatpartofthebodywillgolimp.And,again,thetimeframeisjustaguide.Itisjustastemperaturedependentaslividity,andifitisreallywarm,theappearanceanddisappearanceoftherigormortiswillbeaccelerated,uh,andifitissignificantlycolder,thenitwillbedelayed.

ColinMillerHaeMinLeesbodywasfoundonFebruary9th,1999.TheStatesclaimthatshewaskilledandburiedonJanuary13th,1999,andaccordingtotheState,whenLeesbodywas

disinterred,herbodystillhadsomerigor.Andthatrigorwaseasilybroken,probablyduetotemperature,accordingtotheMedicalExaminer.Now,ifLeehad,infact,beendeadforalmostamonthbeforeshewasfound,didthesefindingsaboutrigormortismakesense?Dr.HlavatyWell,thecooltemperaturesdocomplicatetheestimateoftimeofdeathbecauseitdelaysallthechangesthatweseeinthebodyandweusetomakethatestimate.Andcoldalsodoesmakethebodystiffallbyitself.Imean,themostextremeexampleofthiswouldbefreezingofthebodyifthetemperaturewascoldenough.So,inordertoassesswhetherthestiffnessisduetorigormortisorthecold,wereallyneedtoconsidertheotherchangesweseeonthebody,namely,thosethataretheevidenceofdecomposition.Decompositioniswherethebodystartsto,uh,breakdownitself,uh,fromtheinsidebythereleaseofintracellularenzymesandthenormalbacteriathatiswithinyourgut,anddecompositionoccursafterrigormortishaspassed.So,weseeskinslippageonthebody,andskinslippageissomethingthathappensindecomposition.So,becauseweseeevidenceofdecomposition,thismeansthattherigormortishadtohavealreadyhavebeenpassed,andtherefore,thestiffeningthatweseeinthebodyhastobeduetothecoldtemperatures.Frankly,nothingelsemakessense.ColinMillerOkay,andthattakesusthenyoumentionedskinslippageabit.Soifwerereturningtoskinslippage,yeah,ifyoucouldgointoalittlebitmoredetailaboutexactlywhatskinslippageisinadeadbody?Dr.HlavatySkinslippageisthesloughingofthesuperficiallayersoftheskinoffofthebody,anditoccursearlyindecomposition.Uh,intemperateconditions,itstartsaroundthetwotothreedaymark.Usually,itstartsastheformationofwhatlookslikeablister,andthenwhentheroofoftheblisterruptures,theskinthensloughsoffthebody,anditcanmakethebodysurfacethatisleftveryslimytothetouch.Skinslippagehappensatanypointwherethereiscontactwiththebody,whetheritbesomeonephysicallymovingthebodyorsomethingintheenvironmentcontactingthebody.So,inacaselikethisyouwouldexpecttheskintosloughorslipoffofthebodysimplybecauseitwasburiedinashallowgrave,soanypartsoftheenvironmentthatthebodywouldhavebeenexposedto,likerocks,wouldhavecausedskinslippage.Alsotheskinwouldslipfrombeingdisinterredordugup,frombeingtransportedtothemorgue,uh,andthenonceatthemorgue,beingundressed,photographed,andexamined.So,allthiswouldbeanytimesomethingcontactedthebody.Itwouldcausetheskintosloughorslipoff.ColinMillerIfwelookedattheautopsyreportinthiscase,itnotesthatLeehad,quoteunquote,generalizedskinslippage.Andsoafteryoulookedatthe,again,theblackandwhite

photos,uh,fromtheautopsy,whatareyourconclusionsabouttheamountofskinslippageinthiscase?Dr.HlavatyIthinkthattheamountandthedistributionoftheskinslippageonthebodyisexactlywhatyouwouldexpect,uh,forabodythatwasburiedinashallowgraveforaboutthreetofourweeksandthendisinterredandexamined.

[48:54]RabiaChaudrySo,thewaytheprosecutionpresentedtheautopsyreportattrialmadeitseemlikeDr.Korellsfindingsprovidedfirmsupportfortheirtheoryofthecaseeventhoughinrealitytheautopsyreportprovided,atbest,onlyambiguoussupportforsomepartsofthetheoryand,atworst,completelycontradictedotherpartsofit.Theresonefinalpointabouttheautopsyresultstheprosecutionneverbroughtupattrial,andthatstheMedicalExaminersfindingsaboutlivormortis.[49:19]ColinMillerDr.HlavatyandItalkedaboutthisotherelementoftheautopsyphotosfromthereport.First,Iaskedhertoexplainexactlywhatlivormortisis.

[49:27]Dr.HlavatyLivormortisreferstotheredtopurplediscolorationoftheskin,uh,thatyouseeonbodiesafterdeath.Itisaphysicalprocessthatoccursafterdeathwhereinthebloodsettleswithinthedependentareasofthebodybasedongravity,meaningifyoudieonyourbackandareleftinthatposition,thebloodwillthensettleintothebackhalfofyourbody.Itsaprocessthatbecomesvisibleorevidentabouttwotofourhoursafterdeath,anditcantakeuptoeighttotwelvehourstobecomemostprominentorvisibleandtofix.Now,fixationhappenswhenthereisbreakdownorhemolysisofthebloodwithinthebloodvesselsthatoccursafterdeath,andsoifabodyismovedafterlividityisfixed,thelividitywillnotshiftandresettleintothenewbodyposition.So,ifthebodythatwasonitsbackwasthenflippedontoitsstomachafterfixation,thelividitywouldremainonthebackhalfofthebody.Now,thiseighttotwelvehoursismerelyjustanestimateoraguidebecause,likeallofthechangesthathappentothebodyafterdeath,itisveryenvironmentalandtemperaturedependent.Andthisguideofeighttotwelvehourswasbasedonwhattheycalltemperateconditions,meaningaboutroomtemperature,60to80degrees.Soifthetimeframe,uh,ifthetemperatureiswarmerthanthat,thethistimeframecouldbeaccelerated,andifthetemperatureswerecolder,thenthetimeframecouldbeevenmoredelayed.ColinMillerOkay,andtheautopsyreportforHaeMinLeesaysthatherbodyhadfixedfrontallividity.Isthatconsistentwithwhatyousawintheautopsyphotos?Dr.HlavatyWell,thefiveblackandwhitephotosthatIviewedofthebodytakenatthemorgue,becausetheywereblackandwhiteandbecauseofthechangesofdecompositionanddirt

that[inaudible]onthebodyinsomeofthosephotographs,honestly,Icannottellthelividitypatternbasedonthosephotosalone.However,[inaudible]thereportandtheMedicalExaminertestimonywereveryclearthatthiswasanterior,orfrontal,lividity.So,knowingthatandlookingatthephotos,theresnovariationintheshadingofgrayfromthelefthalfofthebodytotherighthalf,uh,sothe,thephotographswould,therefore,beconsistentwithfixedfullfrontal,oranterior,lividity.ColinMillerOkay,andifweturnthentotheStatestheoryofthecaseattrial,theirclaimisthatHaeMinLeewaskilledat2:36p.m.andthereafterpretzeledupinthetrunkofherNissanSentraforthenextfourtofivehours.Wouldthatbeconsistentwiththefindingoffixedfrontallividityinthiscase?Dr.HlavatyNo.Uh,absolutelynot.Uh,togetfixedfullfrontallividity,thatwouldmeanthatthebodywouldhavetobefacedownandleftinthatpositioninatemperatelocationforuptoeighttotwelvehoursinorderforthelividitytofix.Uh,ifthebodywasputintothetrunkofavehicleorpretzeledupandthentransportedandthenevenburiedonitsrightsidewithinafourtofivehourwindow,thelividitypatternonthebodyonceitwasdisinterredwouldbeconsistentwiththeburialposition,meaningitwouldbeontherightsideofthebody,andthatisnotthecasehere.ColinMillerAccordingtotheautopsyreport,whenHaeMinLeesbodywasfoundinLeakinPark,shewasfoundburiedonherrightside,andtheStatescontentionattrialwasthatshewasburiedinLeakinParkinthe7oclockhour,baseduponcellphonepings,aboutfourtofivehoursafterdeath.Wouldthatbeconsistentwiththefindingoffixedfrontallividity?

Dr.HlavatyNo,ifshewasindeedburiedwithinfourtofivehoursofdeath,again,consideringatemperatelocation,thenthelividitypatternwouldvefixedafterburial,anditwouldhavebeenontherighthalfofherbodyandnotfullyfrontal.ColinMillerIfwecombinethesethreefindingsaboutlividity,rigormortis,andskinslippage,whatsyourbestguessoverallabouthowmuchtimepassedbetweenthedeathofHaeMinLeeandherburial?Dr.HlavatyWell,Ithinkthattherestwomorethingsthatweneedto,uh,consider,beforeestimatingthetimeofdeath.Uh,onewouldbetheburialofthebodyandtheotherwouldbetheexaminationofthebrain.Burialitselfdelaysallofthechangesthatoccurafterdeaththatwealreadytalkedabout.Thereisapublishedruleofthumbthatsaysthatoneweek

exposedtoairisequaltoabouteightweeksburiedindirt,uh,andcertainlymyexperienceshereinDetroithaveshownthattobe,uh,actuallyprettytrue.Theotheristheexaminationofthebrainitself.Instrangulation,theheadgetscongestedandfilledwithbloodbecausepressureontheneckpreventsthebloodfromdrainingfromthehead.Ordinarily,instrangulationvictimswhoarestartingtodecompose,theheadactuallydecomposesataslightlyfasterratethantherestofthebody.Ifthatwasthecase,thebrainwouldnotappearnormalandhaveagooddemarcationbetweenitsgrayandwhitematterstructuresasthisonedid.So,basedonthefactthatthisisfull,fixedfrontallividity,thattherigormortishadpassed,thatwereseeinggeneralskinslippageinabodythatwasburiedincoldtemperatureandinternallydidnotshowevidenceofdecomposition,Ithinkthatthiswasabodythatwasleftfacedownforuptoeighttotwelvehoursbeforeitwasburiedandthatshewasburiedlikelywithineighttotwentyfourhoursofherdeath.

[55:05]SusanSimpsonThisisnotjustonemedicalexaminerwiththisopinion.BetweenColinandI,wevetalkedtoIdontknowhowmanydoctorsnow,andtheyveallsaidtheexactsamething:thereisnowayshewasburiedat7oclockifshewaskilledat2:30or3.[55:20]ColinMillerTheresalsonowayshewasinthetrunkofherSentraforfourtofivehoursaftershewaskilledbecauseshewouldnothavefixedfrontallividityinthatcase.[55:29]SusanSimpsonSo,thisisntkindofajudgmentcalloraquestionablearea.Thedoctorsareprettymuchunanimousonthispoint.[55:35]RabiaChaudrySo,goingbythemedicalevidence,theearliestHaecouldhavebeenburiediseighthoursafterdeathbecausethetemperatureontheafternoonofthe13thwasinthe50s,whichmeansthis:thatafterHaewaskilled,herbodywaskeptsomewherefacedown,flat,foratleast8hoursbeforebeingmovedtoLeakinPark.Therewasathirdpotentialcrimescene,theplaceshewaskilledandherbodywaskept.Wheredidthathappen?[56:00]SusanSimpsonTheimportanceherecannotbeoverstated.TheStatescasecouldnothavehappened.Itsafantasyitsallmakebelieve.NoneofthatcouldhavehappenedbecauseHaewasnotburiedat7oclock,whichmeanstheirwholecase,thewholeissuewiththecellphonerecordsthatshowthatAdnanwasintheparkat7oclockImean,evenassumingtherecordsdoshowthatalltheyshowwasthathewasnearsomeplacewherecrimewasnothappening.[56:22]ColinMillerItbreaksdowntoafewthings,right?Imean,eitherthisisacompletefabricationandJayhasnoinvolvementwhatsoever,orontheotherhand,Jayistellingthetruthbutforsomereason,despiteAdnancommittingthismurder,thisentirestorythatscreatedandsoldtothejury,bearsnotangiblerelationshiptoreality.Theresnotthetrunkpop.Shesnotinthetrunkforfourtofivehours.Shesnotburiedinthe7oclockhour.TheLeakinParkpingsaremeaningless.Jennstestimonyaboutcallingandgetting

someoneinLeakinParkduringtheburialat7:09and7:16thatswrong.Imean,theres,theresnothingintheStatescasethatmakesanysensegiventheobjectivemedicalevidence.[57:06]SusanSimpsonSo,maybetheStatedidknowaboutthelivormortisissueandthatitwasaproblem.Andtherearesomeindicationsthattheywereawareofit.SowhydidnttheMedicalExaminertalkaboutitduringeitherherdirectorhercrossexaminationattrial?[57:19]ColinMillerYeah,thisissomethingthatsinterestingtome.So,wehavetheMedicalExaminerinthiscase.ShewasinvolvedinapriorcasethecasewasWiggins.Andinthatcasewasalsoamurdercaseandabodywasfound,andthelividitywascompletelyfixedwhenthebodywasfound.Whencontactedbythedefenseteam,thesameMedicalExaminerinAdnanscasesaid,Well,thevictimcouldhavebeenkilledassoonasfourhoursbeforethebodywasfound.Shewasthereaftercorrectedbyhersuperiorwhosaid,no,thatsnotright.Aswevesaidtoday,ittakesatleasteighthoursforlividitytofix.And,infact.thiscasewasappealedallthewayuptotheCourtofAppealsofMaryland,andontheexactsamedaytheMedicalExaminerperformedtheautopsyonHae,theCourtissueditsopinion,andinitsopinionitnotedtheincorrecttestimonybythesameMedicalExaminerandnotedthefindingthatlividitytakesatleasteighthourstofix.So,thisiscertainlysomethingduringtheautopsy,thetestimony,etc.ThisMedicalExaminerknewfullwellthattheresnowayHaewouldhavehadfixedfrontallividityifshewasburiedinLeakinParkfourorfivehoursafterherdeathonherrightside.[58:31]SusanSimpsonAndthisismoreofasubjectivecall,butreadingthetranscripts,itseemslikeshestryingawfullyhardtoavoidgivingthatanswer.Idontknowifyoufeelthesame,butthewaysheanswersGutierrezsquestions,she,shedoessocorrectly,butshenevergivestheinformationthatsheeasilycouldhavethatwouldhaveexplainedwhytheStatescasecantbetrue.[58:50]ColinMillerYes,shesveryequivocal,andabigpartoftheproblemisGutierrezdoesntpinherdown.AndwevetalkedaboutineffectiveassistanceinthecontextofnotcontactingAsiaMcClain.IthinkevenmoreegregioushereisGutierrezsfailuretoproperlycrossexaminetheMedicalExamineror,certainly,getherownmedicalexaminertolookatthisevidencebecauseitsasclearasday.Imean,so,we,wevehadallthesepeoplewevetalkedto.EverysinglepersonconcludestheresnowayHaesbodywasburiedinthe7oclockhour.Itwouldhavebeen10:30orlater.ThelividitydoesntmatchittheStatescaseisbunk.[59:25]SusanSimpsonTome,theonlyquestionleftis,whetherornotUrickandMurphyknewthis.[59:29]ColinMillerWell,Imean,thatspartoftheproblem,right?Imean,asIsaidintheintroductiontotheMedicalExaminer,wedonthavethephotosofHaeinherburialposition,and,infact,theprosecutiondidntturntheseovertothedefense.AlltheydidwastheyallowedGutierreztogoandobservethemforashortperiodoftime,buttheyrefusedtogiveherthosephotostoconsiderandpossiblyhandovertosomeonetolookatmoreclosely.

[59:55]SusanSimpsonEventually,theydid.Shehadtowritethemseveraltimes.Shewrotethemandsaid,Wewantcopiesofthephotos.Andeachtimetheydsay,Nope,wedonthavetogivethemtoyou.And,shefinallywrotebackandsaid,Look,ineverycaseIveeverhandledorseenhandled,theprosecutiongivescopiesofphotostothedefense.IdontknowwhyyouwontrespondtomyquestionsaboutseeingthemIdontknowwhyyouwonttellmewhenIcanseethem.Andatthatpoint,eventually,Urickdoessay,Okay,look,herearetwohours.Youcancometomyofficeandlookatthemthen.So,shedidgettoseethephotos,butshegottoseethemfortwohours.ShedidnotknowatthattimewhattheStatestheorywasfortheburialtime,andshedidnthavecopiesgobackandchecklater.AndwhatIalsofindinterestingisthattwoweeksafterthat,UrickwritestoGutierrezagain,andhesays,Oh,bytheway,Ijustfoundthataboutaquarterofthephotosofthecrimescenewerentactuallyavailableforyouwhenyoucamethatday.Ifyouwanttocomeseethemagain,letmeknow.AndIhavenoideaifGutierrezeveractuallydidthat.Sowhoknowswhatphotoswereleftoutduringtheinitialexamination?[1:00:54]ColinMillerWhatwedoknowistheautopsysaidshewasburiedonherrightside.ThatshouldhavebeenenoughforGutierreztobeabletoeitheroncrossexaminationpointoutthisclearinconsistencyorhaveherownexpertgiventheamountofmoneyshewaspaidtocomeintocourtandclearlysay,TheStatescasemakesnosense.Thisisnotatallhowthemurderorburialtookplace.[1:01:16]SusanSimpsonYouknow,anditspossibletheStaterealizedthisandrealizedsomeonesgoingtofigureitoutbecauseJayschangedhisstoryagain,andhenowsaystheburialwasclosertomidnight,whichisactuallyclosertotheevidence.[1:01:28]RabiaChaudryHeonlysaidthatthispastDecemberinTheInterceptinterview.AndIthoughtaboutthatalot.Ithought,wow,itsreally,reallyoddtomethathewouldgoandpubliclytalkaboutthefactthatheliedinhisstatementsandintwotrialsthatAdnanburiedHaearound7:00p.m.Itmakesnosenseitalsocompletelydestroystheutilityofthecellphonestuff,whichiswhattheStateusedtocorroboratehisstory.Sowhywouldhedothat?Ihaveatheoryaboutthisandthatisthis:thatJaysinterviewforTheInterceptwassetupbythesameattorneythat,uh,Urickretainedforhim16yearsago,AnneBenaroya.AnneBenaroyaistheonewhocontactedthereporterforTheInterceptandarrangedtheinterview.So,ifImalawyerandIhaveaclientandImarranginganinterview,youbetterbedamnsurethatIknowexactlywhatmyclientsgoingtobesaying.Now,thissamereporteralsogota[sic]interviewwithUrick,soImassumingsomelevelofcontact,communication,corroborationbetweenthesepeople.So,thenifImJayslawyer,whyamItellinghimthatitsokaytototallychangeyourtimeline?AndIthinkwhatmighthavehappenedthereisthatsomebodyrealizedthis,thatthecelltowerevidenceisuselessanywaysatthispointandwellexplaininafutureepisodewhybutwhattheyhavetodealwithismedicalevidence,whichisirrefutable.Andbasedonthemedical

evidence,thatburialcouldnthavehappenedat7.Itsgottobemovedtomidnight.SomebodytoldJaytosaythat,andhesaidit.[1:02:55]ColinMillerRabia,thatsafairpointandImightagreewithyou,butandthisis,perhaps,theproblemwithanythingwhenyourehavingastatementbyJayisthateventhisnewstorydoesntmatchbecauseinthenewstorythetrunkpopisthisclosertomidnight,whichmeansthebodyspresumablybeeninthetrunkforseveralhours.Thatdoesntmatchlividity.AndJayalsosaysthatwhenAdnanarrivesathisgrandmothershouseclosertomidnight,hecallshimonhiscellphoneandtheres,theresnocallthats,thatsmadetoJayatanypointinthattimeframe,andso,yeah,Imean,itcouldbetheyretryingtomatchthelividityevidence,buttheressortofadditionalproblemscreatedbyTheInterceptinterview.[1:03:33]SusanSimpsonWell,theycouldnthavematchitbetter.Giventhestateofthecaseatthispoint,theresnowayJaycouldhavetoldastorythatactuallymatchedtheevidence.[1:03:39]RabiaChaudryYouknow,aluh,somebodyfromlawenforcementreachedouttomeawhileagotosaythat,youknow,generallyspeaking,whenabodyismovedfromonelocationtoanother,whichiswhatitseemslikehappenedhere,um,itsdonebecause,youknow,thekillerwantstomakesuretheresnoassociationbetweentheplacethatthepersonwaskilledandwherethebodysfoundbecause,obviously,theplacewherethepersonwaskilledisgoingtothentiethemurdertothekillerthemselves.So,youknow,IwouldassumethatthatmeansthatwhereverHaewasactuallykilledandthenkeptforeighttotenhoursbeforeshewasburiedhadtohavebeensomehowtiedtothekiller,youknow,theirhome,theirplaceofbusiness,somethingthatwouldimplicatethem.[1:04:16]ColinMillerObviously,theStatestheoryiswrong,andJaystestimonyandstatementsarewrong.Letsjusttrytobreakitdownandsay,okay,evenifwereignoringallofthat,isthereanywayAdnandoesthis?Well,weknowhewenttotrack.HesaysitJaysaysit.Thecoachgivestestimonyandstatementsthatareconsistentwithseeinghimonthe13th.IsthereanywaythatAdnancouldhavedonethisinawaythatdoesntmatchupwiththetrialstory?[1:04:40]SusanSimpsonIdontseeit.Ivetriedtoputittogether,andIcant.Thepieceswillnotfit.[1:04:44]ColinMillerHowdoeshegettotrack,right?Imean,hewouldhaveto,basically,getaride,killher,depositherbodysomewhere,andthenwhat?[1:04:52]SusanSimpsonAndwhywouldJaylieaboutitall?IfheactuallyknewhowHaehadbeenkilled,whynottellthecops,No,yougotitwrong.Hereshowitactuallyhappened?[1:05:07]RabiaChaudrySomeonecommentedonlinethattheclosestwecancometoHaetellinguswhathappenedtoherisherautopsyreport,andwhatherautopsyreporttellsusisnothinglikewhattheStateortheirstarwitnesstoldHaesfamilyandallegedattrial.Onething

thatIcannotstopwonderingishowitspossibleforseasoneddetectiveslikeRitzandMacGillivaryandaseasonedprosecutorlikeUricktonotnoticesomeofthemostobviousdiscrepancieshere.ThepolicesawthepositionofHaesbody.Theysawthelividityinherbodyfirsthand,notthroughpictures.Now,giventhehundredsofhomicidestheydinvestigated,didtheynotseethedifferenceinherpositionandthelividity?Didtheynotrealizethatshehadtohavebeenmovedthereafterbeingfacedownsomewhereelseforatleasteighthours?Didneitherthepoliceorprosecutioneverquestionwhythecarwasexternallyclean,despitehavingbeenthroughiceandsnowstorms,andwhytherewasgreengrassunderneathitandinthewheelwell?Weretheysofocusedontheirprimesuspect,Adnan,thattheyignoredtheseobviousconflictsbetweenthestorytheyofferedandtheevidenceofthecrimescenesandautopsy?Itmayhavebeenthattheyhadastarwitnessandtheyneededtofindawaytomakehisstorywork.Sothesediscrepancieshadtobeignored,andtheyhadtohaveawaytocorroboratehisstory.Afterall,theyhadnothinglinkingAdnantothecrimebutJay,right?Well,Jayandonemorething,thecellphoneevidence.NexttimeonUndisclosed.[1:06:31]ManythankstoRamiroMarquezforourthememusicandphotography,toChristieWilliamsforcreatingourwebsite,andtoBallookey,whodesignedourlogo.OurproductionconsultantisRebeccaLavoie,atruecrimeauthorandhostofthepodcastCrimeWritersonSerial.DennisRobinsonisourproducer.YoucanfollowusonsocialmediaonFacebookandTwitter.OurTwitterhandleis@Undisclosedpod.Pleasetweetusyourquestionsandcommentsusingthehashtag#Undisclosed.[1:06:58]Youknowthatwehavegreatadvertisersthatsupporttheshowandkeepitfreeforyou.Now,oneofthereasonswhyadvertisersloveUndisclosedisthattheyknowtheshowhasamazinglisteners.Rightnow,wehaveasurveythatIdlikeyoutotaketohelpuslearnmoreaboutouraudience.Justgotopodsurvey.com/undisclosed.Thesurveysonlygoingtotakefiveminutes,andweregoingtoasksomequestionsaboutyourselfandwhatyouliketobuy,butitscompletelyanonymous.Youranswerswillhelpusfindadvertisersthatarewellmatchedtoyou,yourinterests,andtheshow.Andwhenyourefinished,youcanenteramonthlydrawingtowina$100AmazonGiftCard.Evenifyouvetakenapodcastlistenersurveybefore,Idliketoaskyoutotakeoursandhelpsupporttheshow.Dontforgetyouhaveachancetowinthat$100giftcard.Onceagain,thatspodsurvey.com/undisclosed.Thanksforhelpingusfindthebestadvertiserssowecankeeptheshowfree.

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