universal rocket tooling, motor specifications, thread … laduke's hybrid-universal rocket...

Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread Index

ned Posted 4/11/2010 10:12 AM (#105705) Subject: Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread Index

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General introductory discussion: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11625&posts=64... _________________ Black Powder Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11629&posts=24... _____________________ Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11640&posts=8&... ____________________ Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11646&posts=7&... _________________ Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11654&posts=12... _____________________ Colored-Tailed Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11647&posts=10... ________________________ Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11667&posts=1&... ______________________ Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11670&posts=1&... _____________________

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Nozzleless Motors made with Universal Tooling http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11671&posts=2&... _______________________ Increment sizes for use with Universal Tooling http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf ________________________ Loading Forces Table http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20... _________________________ Advantages and unique effects of each type of motor made with the UT http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11672&posts=1&... _______________________ Hybrid #2 fuel used in an endburner configuration made with endburner tooling: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11674&posts=1&... Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:25 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/11/2010 7:28 PM (#105765 - in reply to #105705) Subject: RE: Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread Index

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Charts supporting the above pages, including pressing force and increment sizing:

http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11682

----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts:







http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704




Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/7/2010 8:51 AM (#105191) Subject: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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OK, let's start from scratch for developing some spec's for using Universal Tooling for all cored motors, designed by Steve LaDuke. Steve's instructions list four basic fuels, and I'd imagine this list will be expanded as Colored Tailed Rockets and Nozzleless Rockets and other whistle fuels get included: Black Powder #1 75 KNO3 15 airfloat charcoal 10 80-mesh charcoal 15 36-40-mesh charcoal 10 sulfur 5 dextrin +water/alcohol Whistle Mix #2 76 potassium perchlorate 23 sodium salicylate 1 red iron oxide 2.5 vaseline lacquer thinner Whistle Mix #3 64 potassium perchlorate 32 sodium benzoate 1 red iron oxide 5 vaseline lacquer thinner Strobe Mix #4 60 ammonium perchlorate 25 magnalium 50/50 -200 mesh 15 barium sulfate 5 potassium dichromate NC lacquer and acetone, about 10% mix of the NC lacquer Maybe the first questions would be "what variations on these fuels are in common use?" I personally use mineral oil instead of vaseline in the whistle and strobe fuels, mixed in Coleman Fuel, and eliminating the NC lacquer in the strobe. What mix of alcohol/water is used to wet and rice the BP fuel? What other whistle fuels have been shown to work with the UT (Universal Tooling)? How can colored tailed rockets be made with the UT? How can nozzleless motors be made with the UT? Steve specs nozzles in only the Hybrid Motors, and the BP motors. Are nozzles used in colored tailed rockets? In a personal note, Steve specs pressed-increment heights of 2/3 tube ID. The figures I put in the other thread were based on a height of 2/3 tube ID. I'm working on formatting that info into a chart which can be included in one of these posts, and I'll post it all in this thread once I get that accomplished. How high on the spindle should the hot Whistle (#2 fuel) be pressed in a Strobe or LWS motor, before switching to the other fuel.

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That's probably enough for now. Once we nail down some of these preliminaries, we can move to some other specs. And, yep, Dave, eventually, with Steve's guidance and consent, we'll come up with a comprehensive set of instructions for all the fuels, motor types, motor sizes, and guidance for dialing the motors in..good for newbies and oldies alike.. ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 9:05 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

dapaki Posted 4/7/2010 9:32 AM (#105197 - in reply to #105191) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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WH00T! Dang, now I kind of feel bad for calling you a geezer

ned Posted 4/7/2010 9:33 AM (#105198 - in reply to #105197) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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WH00T! Dang, now I kind of feel bad for calling you a geezer _____________________________ I'm searching for some way to have you 'blocked' from viewing this thread, Sonny....

nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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LOL! I will try to behave... maybe. Can you flesh this out a little more for me? "I personally use mineral oil instead of vaseline in the whistle and strobe fuels, mixed in Coleman Fuel, and eliminating the NC lacquer in the strobe." I believe that your SL instructions were a little different. I have been using just baby oil (I like the smell) and Iron Oxide in my whistle but with a good buy on Barium Sulfate, I will be dabbling in the black arts of strobe rockets and would like your thoughts on the finer details. Dave

Danny Creagan Posted 4/7/2010 9:53 AM (#105206 - in reply to #105191) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles Steve's Universal spindle is a very nice compromise that lends itself to many more configurations than even Steve says.



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One that I was testing at Vinton on the 27th was quite successful. It was a MgAl colored tailed chuffer rocket pressed on a 'universal like' spindle. I was shooting both green and red. Since I shoot these all the time, I never thought about recording any of the launches. However, they were getting very respectable heights. Joel can confirm - we had a short discussion about how high they were going for such simple motors. This was the first time I had used a universal spindle with them so I didn't have any cool headers - just tested six to make sure they would work. A side effect of using the universal spindle is that it has a good taper so the darn MgAl, which grabs more narrow spindles, releases its death grip sooner. Here is the process: 1. Make red, green or yellow MgAl rocket fuel according to the Barr, Stoddard, Steinberg formulas. Here is my web page about them if you don't have your notes handy: http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/strontiumrockets.... 2. Using the universal spindle, make a 1 I.D. clay nozzle - I use oiled kitty litter. 3. Press one I.D. of 76/23/1 salicylate whistle mix (or 1.5 ID of benzoate mix). 4. Fill to the top of the spindle with the MgAl mix. 5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time - the MgAl is slow burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on them. 6. Add a nice clay bulkhead - at least 1 I.D. The whistle is necessary - the modest spindle doesn't have enough burn area to get the MgAl comps up to speed unless you augment the ignition. You could probably add a bit more whistle if you wanted a laser on takeoff (or added a larger header) but the idea behind the MgAl motors is to lift with medium velocity and chuff a bit on the way up. The above formula seemed to be about right - the motors were boosted right at first but they were no where near the red line. The mix chuffed a few times and the motor got its head of steam up and went for the clouds. Edit: Safety warning - MgAl mix is really a modified colored flash so be very careful. If you get a stuck spindle or ram - which is easy to do if you don't keep your tooling clean - cut the motor off before you haul down on the sucker to twist it off. Edited by Danny Creagan 4/7/2010 9:59 AM ----- I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that header. Dan Creagan


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I believe that your SL instructions were a little different. I have been using just baby oil (I like the smell) and Iron Oxide in my whistle but with a good buy on Barium Sulfate, I will be dabbling in the black arts of strobe rockets and would like your thoughts on the finer details. Dave _________________________________ Dave,



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in the SL newsletter articles: #123 Making Whistles #124 Whistle Rockets #125 Strobe Rockets I details my current methods of making whistle and strobe fuels with mineral oil and coleman fuel. (I'd personally beware of "Baby Oil" which probably contains scents and/or other adulterants, similar to rubbing alcohol..) And remember that strobe fuel is HOT,,,,more powerful than whistle fuel,,,be careful when playing with it. And, Danny, a modified colored tailed rocket I won some competitions with in '06 used the Stoddard fuel, and a shorter spindle like the UT one. I did find the typical instructions to use a clay nozzle and the colored fuel, often resulted in a puny motor. So, I eliminated the clay nozzle, pressed about 1.5 ID tall hot whistle fuel, and the rest of the way with the colored fuel..sort of a LWS with colored fuel instead of instead of the slower whistle fuel.. Whistle boosted colored tailed rockets.. worked very nicely for my purposes.. n Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:04 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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So, Steve,,,a few more questions: What kind of charcoal do you use in your BP fuel? Do you use a 9000 psi-on-the-comp loading pressure for all your fuels? Have you made colored tailed rockets on the UT, and if so, how? Wolter lists a "BP-Whistle Assist" motor that can be made with the tooling. Can you provide details on this motor? ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:09 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Douglas Knight Posted 4/7/2010 10:14 AM (#105210 - in reply to #105200) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Ned, I really like where your going with all of this thread and the increment one also. Since getting drawn into the darkside at last years PGI convention this is the journey I've been sperimenting down. Even though the journey in this hobby is as fun as the destination, any additional info is helpful to make even more rewarding. I personally am loading up to take off for the 2F and try my first strobe rockets. I was planning on trying vaseline with laquer thinner plus the standard chems. Do you think I would be better off just going with the mineral oil rather than vaseline? And gee Dave I thought Ned was the elder statesman and Danny Creegan was the geezer

I'm just getting a little too wound up for 2F! WOOHOO!



----- Doug


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Douglas Knight - 4/7/2010 10:14 AM And gee Dave I thought Ned was the elder statesman and Danny Creegan was the geezer I'm just getting a little too wound up for 2F! WOOHOO!

I know, I know, but I gotta work with Danny at PGI, no need getting him all riled up at me and then sitting on a bucket over on the far side of the track all week long...

"Release the Creagan!!"

Dave

Douglas Knight Posted 4/7/2010 10:38 AM (#105215 - in reply to #105206) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 10:53 AM re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles 5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time - the MgAl is slow burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on them.

Dan, For the first time on one of these say cut the delay back to 3/4 I.D. then? Oh, just kidding about that geezer thing, I've never seen you geezing.

----- Doug

ned Posted 4/7/2010 10:49 AM (#105216 - in reply to #105215) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Well,,,unfortunately when posting this table, which is included appropriately down in the body of this post, a lot of other BS is showing up,,,which I can't seem to find a way to get rid of... But the table includes the info from the other thread on "increment size", along with some modified specs for BP increments, since the density of that pressed fuel is different than whistle or strobe fuels. ned xmlns ="urn:schemas-microsoft-com ffice ffice"

xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com ffice:word"

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<body lang=EN-US style='tab-interval:.5in'> style='width:493.8pt;border-collapse:collapse;border:none;mso-border-alt:solid black .5pt; mso-border-themecolor:text1;mso-yfti-tbllook:1184;mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'>



*Approximate starting values

Based on pressed increments =2/3 Tube ID tall

Based on pressed fuel densities:

Whistle/Strobe = 30 grams/cubic inch

BP fuel = 22 grams/cubic inch

Tube Size

Increment Volume, cu.in.

Whistle/Strobe Increment Wt.

Whistle/Strobe Increment Size

BP Increment Weight

BP Increment Size

½”

.07

2g/.05 oz

Heaping ¼ t

1.5g/.05 oz

Flat ½ t

5/8”

.13

4g/.15 oz

Heaping ½ t

3g/.1 oz

Heaping ½ t

¾”

.22

7g/.25 oz

Heaping t

5g/.2 oz

Round t

7/8”

.35

11g/.4 oz

Heaping ½ T

8g/.3 oz

Heaping ½ T

1”

.53

17g/.6 oz

Heaping T

13g/.45 oz

Heaping T

1.25”

1.03

32g/1.1 oz

Heaping 1/8 C

24g/.85 oz

Heaping 1/8 C+

1.5”

1.77

56g/2 oz

Round ¼ C

42g/1.5 oz

Flat 1/3 C



Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:55 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/7/2010 11:05 AM (#105219 - in reply to #105191) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Ned: I can answer all of those questions right here. Water-alcohol mix added to rice BP-- no more that 10% alcohol Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel. Nozzless rocket---- press the entire rocket with the #1 BP mixed with #2 whistle mix. A ratio of 50% whistle and 50% BP--- by weight. Press the entire rocket with one increment above the spindle with this mix, then change to a different fuel. This fuel can be a colored mix, maybe just more straight whistle to give a whistling effect, maybe some willow tailed fuel, anything your imagination can muster. Just be careful of how far you go above the spindle because your rocket will be coasting at this point. Consideration of the heading is important. The heavier the payload, less altitude. Variations in fuel------ making strobe mix, I would now suggest using vasoline and lacquer thinner. Some guys use mineral oil. Whatever works best for you. I find that mixing 2 parts of vasoline to every 100 grams of strobe mix works for me. and it was recently discovered that adding more that 2 parst increases the strobe frenquency. I have not tried that yet. What other whistle fuels work with this tooling? So far, the individual rockets that can be made have to be used exactly the way they were intended that was listed on the sheet. I've covered every type of rocket that can possibly be made with the tooling. Maybe I don't quite understand the question as it was stated. How high should the hot whistle be pressed in strobe and LWS before switching to the other fuel? 4 increments of #2 whistle------ the rest should be strobe to about 3/16 above the spindle, then finish the rocket with 3 smaller increments of whistle. On the LWS rocket, 4 increments of #2 hot whislte, then finish the rocket with the slower #3 benzoate whistle to about 2 inches above the spindle. This rocket is not designed to lift heavy payloads. A salute heading is plenty of payload. A salute heading is made by wrapping at least 5 turns of 90 lb. gummed paper tape, 3 inches wide, around the rocket tube itself to form a tube. An endplug is glued into one end. These 3 inch wide tubes can be cut in half to make 2 tubes is so desired. Then fill this tube with whatever you desire, apply some glue on the inside edge of the tube and slide it ovet the top of the finished rocket If you so insist on pressing in a clay plug over the fuel in the rocket, then you will have to drill a hole through this plug to provide a passfire hole, which should be plugged with some whistle #2 to give a good jet of fire when the rocket burns to this point. If either rocket catos on ignition, there's probably two things that can probably help. #1---- make sure the loading pressure is at least 7500 psi. I use 9000 on all the rockets, and I use nothing but New England, high quality tubes. #2---- reduce the 4 increments of the hot #2 fuel to 3 increments and see what happens. This will most likely prevent the rocket from catoing. I can think of no other possibility that would cause a cato if your increment size is correct. There would be definately something else that you



screwed up in the process. One other rocket that was not mentioned be Ned is the whislte assist-BP rocket. Here, you start out the same way as the other nozzless rockets are made. 4 increments of #2 hot whistle Then finishe the rocket to at least 1 inch above the spindle with your BP fuel. For the BP fuel to be used in these rockets, I would suggest a fuel, such as the #1 on the sheet. Or, probably a slower burning BP with a larger amount of coarse charcoal added into the mix to increase the charcoal tail. It doesn't really matter to much on how fast this BP burns, because the whistle fuel in this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick off the launch pad. Once the whistle fuel is burned up and gone, which takes about 1/2 second, what's left is the unburned core of the BP still burning. So if you can add some extra, coarse and intermediate size charcoal, this would really make a nice tail. This rocket will take a medium size payload. It is possible to add an extra increment of #2 whistle to give it a more powerful jump on takeoff, but 4 increments seems plenty already. Ned, I've been sitting here for an hour writing. Maybe I will write enough that you won't have to write anything, just put it altogether. It's not very often I feel like sitting that long in one spot and writing something. I think you've found out, and I suspect this is the way you will get all this information out of me that you need to put something together on the Hybrid tooling. You're pretty sneaky. One more thing I'd like to add to all of this, 1 increment should take up 1/2 of the diamater of the tube. Yo guys that make rockets will slap your forehead and say, here we go again about increment size. I do know definately that increment size can make or break a good rocket. And with these high energy fuels that are being used to make rockets, I think it would be best to stay on the safe side and keep the increment size to what I find works best for me. If your rockets work for you when using a 15 gram increment where I use a 7 gram increment, all I can say is you will get done faster than I will. I gotten rockets to work using larger increments in the past but have slowly realized that I get fewer rockets that cato when I use smaller increments, and this is what I find that works best for me. I've only been making them for 48 years now, and I have all this accumulated knowdge behind me. It took me 48 years to reveal this to my friends. Do whatever you want with this information. SLD It's now been over an hour and a half, or closer to 2 hours.


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I personally am loading up to take off for the 2F and try my first strobe rockets. I was planning on trying vaseline with laquer thinner plus the standard chems. Do you think I would be better off just going with the mineral oil rather than vaseline? _________________________________ I've used both Vaseline and the oil, Doug,,and I think either one will work fine. I like the oil because it doesn't have to be melted before introducing the Coleman Fuel, but others have developed creative ways to mix these fuels, so there are plenty of options. Have fun at the 2F, and give us a full report when you're back. Are you settled in GA now? nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/7/2010 11:09 AM (#105221 - in reply to #105191) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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After reading over my post, it looks like my grammar is starting to slip a little. SLD



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I think there's a Huge amount of good info in that long post, Steve. Thanks. One major point of clarification, though. In a personal note, you said your increments are 1/2 tube ID tall. Then in the 'increment size' thread you posted: "To make something simple, one increment, when pressed into a rocket, will take up 2/3rd the diamater of the rocket." Then, in that last long post, you're back to pressed increments that are 1/2 tube ID tall. I'm assuming that, depending on whether the increment is around the spindle, where the same weight will press up taller, or above the spindle, where the same weight will press up shorter, and also depending on whether it's BP fuel or Whistle/Strobe fuel, the increments end up being between 1/2 and 2/3 Tube ID tall. Would that be an accurate statement, as a generalization? You probably don't mic the height of your increments, I'm guesssing, so I'd imagine the above info is a 'general, approximate rule of thumb'... The place this becomes important is when 'number of increments' is used to spec how high on the spindle one fuel goes, before switching to a different fuel. Could this height be expressed as a fraction of the spindle height instead...like "press X fuel up for half the spindle, then switch to the other fuel...for example? Also, are you pressing all fuel increments to 9000 psi on the comp loading pressure? Thanks a bunch, this'll all end up very useful. ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 11:37 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/7/2010 11:38 AM (#105223 - in reply to #105191) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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One point that might make sense to people re: increment sizes: If the increment is too large, the lower part of the increment compacts more slowly than the top. The top part of the increment "grabs" the tube, and now you are pressing the tube and the lower part of your increment. This is where the tube starts "shrinking" and wrinkling on the inside. ----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704




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Yeah, Lee,,, and the bottom half of a large increment simply does not get as solidly consolidated as the top half. I like Steve's 1/2 to 2/3 tube ID increment height recommendation. One note on the tooling I order. I like to use clay bulkheads, about 1/2 to 1 tube ID tall. I also like to have an empty space of about 2 tube ID's tall in the tube above that bulkhead. That empty space is great for supporting the rammers as the final increments are being pressed. It can be filled with Vitamin F for a nice lil heading pop. If that empty space is not desired in the final motor, a shorter motor tube can be cut, and a small filler/extender tube inserted above it in the tube support as the motor is being pressed. The filler tube supports the drifts, once again, as the final increments are being pressed. So I order my tooling drifts and supports a bit longer than standard to allow all of that space in a motor. n Edited by ned 4/7/2010 12:03 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

dapaki Posted 4/7/2010 12:25 PM (#105227 - in reply to #105191) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Also, along with this measurement:' "Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel." What pound rocket is this based on? I am working on tooling for my new 1/2" tubes and 1" is a whole lot of delay. Dave

Dan Thames Posted 4/7/2010 12:30 PM (#105228 - in reply to #105191) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Steve, 48 years? I thought it was twenty something years, or is the twenty something just whistles/strobes. It may have been from one of your videos but from the very beginning the importances of small increments was something that I picked up on. This is one place where I do listen A really hot

motor better not have somewhat larger increments or I am sure it will pop. The whistle assist BP is something I have been making on my thinner spindles. Also, with my beginnings in the nozzleless BP rockets, this seems sort of normal to me. The whistle assist BP with some strong BP fuel are my greatest weight lifters. Dan T.

pyropep Posted 4/7/2010 12:41 PM (#105229 - in reply to #105222) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Thanks for the wealth of info here guys, everything one needs all in the same place is great!!! This is perfect for guys new to rockets like myself. Steve you have been making rockets for 48 years? WOW you must of started out when you were 8 or 10 years old? Starting out a 47 there's now way i'll ever get that many years of having fun building rockets.



Coast Thanks again Pep (Short for Pepper Martin the nickname that I was givin back in School after the wrestler.)

steve laduke Posted 4/7/2010 1:10 PM (#105233 - in reply to #105222) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling


I'm assuming that, depending on whether the increment is around the spindle, where the same weight will press up taller, or above the spindle, where the same weight will press up shorter, and also depending on whether it's BP fuel or Whistle/Strobe fuel, the increments end up being between 1/2 and 2/3 Tube ID tall. Would that be an accurate statement, as a generalization? You probably don't mic the height of your increments, I'm guesssing, so I'd imagine the above info is a 'general, approximate rule of thumb' Ned: The total amount of room the fuel takes up when pressed around the largest part of the spindle is probably closer to around 2/3rd's the diamater. As the fuel goes up the spindle, the increment takes up less space. And of course, if I don't change the force on this first increment, the loading pressure goes up to around 12,000 psi. The second increment drops slightly and the following 2 increments will succedingly drop the loading pressure. So I would say that your assumption is correct. I like to use the full calculated pressure on my guage when pressing rockets right from the start because I know one guy that had problems making his strobe rockets fly until he started doing this also. So you could probably say that the increment may very in height, depending on where it's being pressed, but I never change the amount of the increment. So it would be easy to determine that column of whistle in each rocket that is being pressed by taking 2/3rds or 1/2 the diamater of that particular rocket and multiplying it by 4. That's how much whsitle fuel should be used before changing to the next fuel. And with every guy that makes whistle, this could vary probably 1/2 inch in either direction, depending on his whistle fuel and the power that it developes. So if one guy is using cheap Chinese perc and the other is using Swedish, that can throw the whole thing out of order. And that's where a guy has to learn to "Tweak' his fuel and procedure. SLD

ned Posted 4/7/2010 1:19 PM (#105236 - in reply to #105233) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Cool, Steve, that's pretty much what I was assuming. Anyone who gains some rocketeering experience will admit that it all comes down to some tweaking, dialing-in, etc, depending on the power of the individual fuels, the size of the motors, etc. (smaller ID motors will accept hotter fuels than will larger ID motors) So, with solid fuel increments, you're pressing at a calculated 9000 psi on the comp, and with the increments around the spindle, that actual pressure is more because the surface area is less. So, with your stock UT design, how long is the spindle in: -increments (1/2 tube ID) -Tube ID's ? ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 1:21 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose



one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



dapaki - 4/7/2010 1:25 PM Also, along with this measurement:' "Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel." What pound rocket is this based on? I am working on tooling for my new 1/2" tubes and 1" is a whole lot of delay. Dave

Dap: Cut it down to 3/4" of delay for a 1/2 incher, or even down to 1/2 and see what happens. If it blows through, then you know you need more bulkhead. Then you need some clay pressed in with a passfire hole. SLD


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Steve, I want to focus on one motor at a time, developing the spec's for it. Starting with the BP motors, I have this formula in my handout from you: 75 KNO3 15 airfloat charcoal 10 80-mesh charcoal 15 36-40-mesh charcoal 10 sulfur 5 dextrin Wet with water/alcohol 90/10 The formula below, which is slightly different (containing 5 less parts of 80-mesh charcoal), is in the: Formulae Shared Rocket All section Black Powder Fueled Rocket: Name: Steve Laduke BP #1 Source: Steve LaDuke Convert to Percent Convert to Meal Chemical Name: Parts: Weigh: Potassium Nitrate 75 Charcoal Airfloat 15 Charcoal, 40 mesh 15 Sulfur 10



Charcoal, 80 mesh 5 Dextrin 5 Tare: Total: 125 ( click to left of chemical names for information on that substance ) NOTES: Rice this mixture with Water and Alcohol Steve, do you use either or both of these formulas, and is one of them the one you actually spec? ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 1:32 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



ned - 4/7/2010 2:19 PM Cool, Steve, that's pretty much what I was assuming. Anyone who gains some rocketeering experience will admit that it all comes down to some tweaking, dialing-in, etc, depending on the power of the individual fuels, the size of the motors, etc. (smaller ID motors will accept hotter fuels than will larger ID motors) So, with solid fuel increments, you're pressing at a calculated 9000 psi on the comp, and with the increments around the spindle, that actual pressure is more because the surface area is less. So, with your stock UT design, how long is the spindle in: -increments (1/2 tube ID) -Tube ID's ? ned

For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon. I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please. SLD

steve kursinsky Posted 4/7/2010 1:34 PM (#105241 - in reply to #105210) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

Offline Have fun at 2 F Doug. And remember, just a little more delay. No pyro fun for me this weekend



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some poor bastard is turning 40 and the wife is forcing me to go to the party. ----- Steve Kursinsky Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.



WOW you must of started out when you were 8 or 10 years old? Pep, As far as I can remember, I pounded my first rocket when I was 13. I'm now 61 and counting. SLD


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For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon. I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please. SLD Probably a few questions left, Steve. Do you press increments figured on 9000 psi on the comp on a solid fuel increment. For example, with a 3/4" ID motor, with a cross-section area of .44 square inches, do you press with 4000 pounds of force? (4000 pounds/.44 square inches = 9000 psi, approx.)? And when you are making the tooling in the different motor sizes, how long is a spindle, expressed in motor ID's? I'm imagining you have the proportions of a spindle worked out in proportion to the motor ID. For example, with a 3/4" motor ID, how long is a spindle? From that we can calculate how many tube ID's long that is. That can then be expressed in fuel increments, with one fuel increment being 1/2 tube ID. Then we'd know about how far up on a spindle to press fuel A before switching to fuel B, approximately. n ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Dap" When making whistle fuel using mineral oil, you loose about 12% of the power as when using vasoline. Anyone care to develope a test to say I'm wrong. I got this information from someone else, but he was testing rockets made with the same tooling and chemicals and the only difference was mineral oil verses vasoline. With rockets made with mineral oil, there was a 12% drop in thrust as compared to vasoline. So that's why I say this. I can give you his name if he would allow it. Baby oil is a new one to me. Some guys follow a recepe and change one of the main ingrediance and expect the same results? That's like where it calls for 1 cup of butter in a pastry recepe and you use 1 cup of lard and expect it to work? Just something for thought. SLD




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I wish I would have know about ordering a little extra length as this is a problem on some of my tooling. Man you get to the top and there is just no support or room left. In stead of adding a salute or heading I like to just hand compress loose whistle in the last inch or so of tube as the salute. blows the tube off nicely and opens the tube up to catch more wind drag on the way down. ----- Steve Kursinsky Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.


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Hmmm, I really liked the baby oil too! OK Steve, I will do it your way, I don't like it but I will try it. Dave

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/7/2010 2:26 PM (#105248 - in reply to #105191) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on vaseline? Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we could use that and avoid the heat ... issue solved. ----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704

ned Posted 4/7/2010 2:51 PM (#105249 - in reply to #105248) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Lee, in his original Whistle Fuel making article, Dan McMuray says, " Unlike acetone or toluene, naphtha is an excellent vaseline solvent...." So, I'm wondering what would happen if the weighed dose of Vaseline was left in a jar of naphtha to dissolve, with maybe some shaking now and then. The melting of the vaseline might be avoided then. ned Edited by ned 4/7/2010 2:52 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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"It is soluble in dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, diethyl ether, carbon disulfide and oil of turpentine. -WP- Dave



Location: Up Nort



ned - 4/7/2010 2:40 PM For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon. I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please. SLD Probably a few questions left, Steve. Do you press increments figured on 9000 psi on the comp on a solid fuel increment. For example, with a 3/4" ID motor, with a cross-section area of .44 square inches, do you press with 4000 pounds of force? (4000 pounds/.44 square inches = 9000 psi, approx.)? And when you are making the tooling in the different motor sizes, how long is a spindle, expressed in motor ID's? I'm imagining you have the proportions of a spindle worked out in proportion to the motor ID. For example, with a 3/4" motor ID, how long is a spindle? From that we can calculate how many tube ID's long that is. That can then be expressed in fuel increments, with one fuel increment being 1/2 tube ID. Then we'd know about how far up on a spindle to press fuel A before switching to fuel B, approximately. n

Damn, Ned, you are making this whole thing complicated to me. I take the area of the tube and calculate the loading pressure of 9000 psi. On my hydraulic guage on my press, for a 1/2 inch ID tube that has .196 sq. in., I press every increment to that calculated pressure to 360 PSI on my guage. I round that off to 400 psi on my guage, so the loading pressure is much higher on those first few increments. If you know the dimensions of one spindle, length and diamater at the bottom, you can easily calculate any length and diamater of Hybrid spindle size. I like to use the cross multiplication method of calculating these dimensions. 3/4" diamater is to 4.2 in. long over 1" diamater is to X. When you cross multiply and divide the opposite side of X, you get the length of that spindle which is 5.6 inchs long for the 1" ID rocket spindle. You do the same for the base diamater of the spindle. I really don't understand what could be easier that saying 4 increment of whistle first, then finish the rocket with the B fuel. I will give you the amont of each increment in weight as I have just finished weighing each increment for each different size rocket that I make using whistle fuel. 1/2 inch rocket----3.5 grams----- heaping 1/4 teaspoon-------------2.5 gms. BP 5/8 " " ----4.5 " ----- slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon 3/4 " " ----6.5 " ----- slightly rounded teaspoon ------- 4 gms. 7/8 " " ----8.5 " ----- here I use a special spoon 1 " " ----10.5 " ----- same spoon, only heaping There you have the increment sizes I use for all these different size rockets when measuring whistle fuel in weight. Of course, I don't weigh these increments when I pressing. And as you can see, I weighed out the same increment of BP and you can see the difference in density. BP weighs a lot less that whistle fuel. So for all these rockets that require 4 increments of whistle first, use these weights and you can't go wrong. And since this is the most critical factor whethet or not the rocket might cato when making these rockets, it is the most important step when pressing them. If your increments get to big in this step, catos wil prevail. I might also add that all of these weight increments may be increased to around 2-2.5 grams without any problems because of the brissance of the whistle fuel you are using. I have noticed the difference in performance of these rockets when I used shitty Chinese perc to make the whistle fuel. You could have probably added 3-4 grams of whistle to each increment and not have a cato, according to the performance of those rockets. But for starters, stick to the smaller increments and see how they perform. What I should have is a recorded flight of my most energetic rockets in each catagory to show as an example to anyone how they fly when they are tweaked to perfection. This would give an idea to anyone who is trying to build them, an example of exactly how they should fly. Then one could work towards tweaking his own rockets to compared with mine, or Dan Thames. Dan should get a kick out of that statement. SLD

steve laduke Posted 4/7/2010 3:59 PM (#105254 - in reply to #105209)



Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling


What kind of charcoal do you use in your BP fuel? From Ned In the #1 BP recipe, I use commercialy made 36-40 mesh and the ballmilled is my own charcoal. I like to use willow wood for this but any type of wood charcoal will work. SLD



Steve, 48 years? I thought it was twenty something years, or is the twenty something just whistles/strobes. I started making whistle and strobe rockets back in 1991, the first convention I went to. I know I made more rockets in those 19 years that I made since I started making them back in 1962. I remember well those peened over brass rammers and ballpeen hammer I used. SLD


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That's great info, Steve.. A lot of what I needed. Did you have a chance to look at the two BP #1 formulas I listed in a post above here? Which one is the one you are using nowadays? Thanks, ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

mike swisher Posted 4/7/2010 4:23 PM (#105258 - in reply to #105248) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling


The listed solvents for petrolatum all have drawbacks; dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, ether, carbon disulphide, and turpentine. The chlorinated hydrocarbons, benzene, and carbon disulphide are all toxic, ether is highly volatile and has a low flash point, and turpentine is not going to evaporate completely from the composition. Of the choices, ether is probably the best of a bad lot.

Lee C. Bussy - 4/7/2010 3:26 PM So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on vaseline? Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we could use that and avoid the heat ... issue solved.



ned - 4/7/2010 2:31 PM Steve, I want to focus on one motor at a time, developing the spec's for it. Starting with the BP motors, I have this formula in my handout from you: 75 KNO3 15 airfloat charcoal



10 80-mesh charcoal 15 36-40-mesh charcoal 10 sulfur 5 dextrin Wet with water/alcohol 90/10 The formula below, which is slightly different (containing 5 less parts of 80-mesh charcoal), is in the: Formulae Shared Rocket All section Black Powder Fueled Rocket: Name: Steve Laduke BP #1 Source: Steve LaDuke Convert to Percent Convert to Meal Chemical Name: Parts: Weigh: Potassium Nitrate 75 Charcoal Airfloat 15 Charcoal, 40 mesh 15 Sulfur 10 Charcoal, 80 mesh 5 Dextrin 5 Tare: Total: 125 ( click to left of chemical names for information on that substance ) NOTES: Rice this mixture with Water and Alcohol Steve, do you use either or both of these formulas, and is one of them the one you actually spec? ned Ned: I gave both of those formulas to use for the BP. The one with the extra 80 mesh gave more tail when mixed with the whistle when making the #2 hybrid for endburners, and this one used a little more whistle in the combined mix to give a little more umph to the fuel. So either one can be used. As you can see, when converted to a percentage, it's really not a very hot fuel by itself with only 60% oxidiser and 28 % charcoal. But it does add tail in an endburn rocket, where in the #1 hybrid fuel, where the fuel is 76-23-1-3 whistle with additional 10 parts of ballmilled charcoal, this gives no tail at all, just a little sprig of light behind it. And when used in the actual hybrid rocket itself, you get a tail right from the start. And by the way, when using #2 hybrid fuel in a hybrid rocket, one can add around 30% whistle to this BP recipe and press the rocket all the way up to one increment above the spindle, and then add whatever type of tail you want on the rocket in the rest of the bulkhead. And this will require careful tweaking as to just how much whistle can be added to the BP. This will all depend on the brissince of the whistle fuel that is added. SLD



Did you have a chance to look at the two BP #1 formulas I listed in a post above here? Which one is the one you are using nowadays?



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Thanks, ned The one I use is the one that has only two mesh sizes in the mix; the ballmilled and 36-40 mesh charcoals. I didn't have any 80 mesh for quite awhile but now I have some so I just might use it again. SLD


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Oh, Man,,,a third formula... Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor. Thanks, ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/7/2010 4:54 PM (#105264 - in reply to #105258) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling


mike swisher - 4/7/2010 5:23 PM The listed solvents for petrolatum all have drawbacks; dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, ether, carbon disulphide, and turpentine. The chlorinated hydrocarbons, benzene, and carbon disulphide are all toxic, ether is highly volatile and has a low flash point, and turpentine is not going to evaporate completely from the composition. Of the choices, ether is probably the best of a bad lot.


So I guess Lee, it's either use mineral oil and sacrifice some power in your whistle or learn to live with melting the vasoline and using lacquer thinner. What the heck, it only takes me about an extra 1-1/2 minute to melt the vasoline for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel. I just wouldn't think of any other way to make it. It's just a part of the procedure in my opinion. No big deal. And thanks, Mike. I now have a reason to pick on Lee.

Danny Creagan Posted 4/7/2010 4:56 PM (#105265 - in reply to #105215) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Douglas Knight - 4/7/2010 10:38 AM Dan, For the first time on one of these say cut the delay back to 3/4 I.D. then?

Yes. Be sure to use a clay bulkhead with them. 3/4 I.D. isn't enough to hold back the noise. Geezer? That would be LaDuke. He and Ned took horseback riding lessons together when they were young. Back then, the horses had clove feet. ----- I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can



disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that header. Dan Creagan


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Glad I could give you something to do besides watch the grass grow Steve.

I make it with Vaseline, and will continue to do so, but I have made it with mineral oil when working away from a heat source. Having a bottle of "Vaseline and solvent" would be handy but it's not a game-stopper.

----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704


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Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 4:56 PM Geezer? That would be LaDuke. He and Ned took horseback riding lessons together when they were young. Back then, the horses had clove feet.

I thought those cave etchings were of LaDuke and Moses? Learn something every day.




ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM Oh, Man,,,a third formula... Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor. Thanks, ned

Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and use airfloat charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a good rocket. One guy even told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All the more power to him. Isn't that 70-20-10 formula on that sheet somewhere? SLD


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Dave I might not be correct on this but I bet I will be corrected if I am wrong. One inch in a half inch tube is going to have the same burn rate as one inch in a one inch tube so the timing would be the same I do think a smaller rocket if not made to optimized performance is going to bounce a little faster than a larger rocket but again I can stand to be corrected by much more experienced people than me. Now how the hell did that happen I hit reply to Davids right below this and it showed up on top? This is just exactly how the whole damn week has been going back wards and upside down.



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Edited by steve kursinsky 4/7/2010 5:24 PM ----- Steve Kursinsky Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.

pyropep Posted 4/7/2010 5:30 PM (#105272 - in reply to #105248) Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Lee Thats what microwave ovens are for I use a pyrex pudding cup and heat it in the microwave, then go outside and add your solvent of choice and your done. Pep



Location: Arkansas

I have the base off of one of those little coffee makers. I cut the top part off. I set my food can with wax or Vaseline on the heat and melt it. Then I add my solvent, mix it up, and go to town. If the solvent is cold, the Vaseline will be a little cloudy. Put it back on the heat for 5 minutes if that bothers you. Dan T.


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ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM Oh, Man,,,a third formula... Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor. Thanks, ned Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and use airfloat charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a good rocket. One guy even told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All the more power to him. Isn't that 70-20-10 formula on that sheet somewhere? SLD _____________________________________ I think I wish we were in the same room, sittin' around a table,,chatting, Steve. With all these posts, I think we're passing each other at times. I mentioned in a post above that I wanted to focus on the BP motor for now. The only BP fuel formula I have from you is the one that is BP #1, that I listed in my first post in this whole thread. 75 KNO3 15 airfloat 10 80-mesh 15 36-40 mesh



10 sulfur 5 dextrin Your instructions say to use this #1 fuel to one increment above the spindle, and then switch to a slower delay fuel such as willow-star-comp for another 2-3 increments. So, you are saying that, really, for the BP rocket, you'd spec: 70 KNO3 20 airfloat 10 sulfur 5 dextrin Use this in the same way, up one increment above the spindle, then switch to the willow-star comp for 2-3 increments? How do you granulate your fuel? How wet do you get it? What size screen do you granulate it through? If we can get these BP motor specs nailed down, that'd be a great start. Thanks, nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Location: Arkansas

Steve K. I did some precise whistle fuel timings in 1lb size, that I could not dupicate in 6lb size. I think that in the 6lb my tube length was longer. It appeared that in longer tubes, the burn rate was different. I mean the delay flame front in one 6lb motor was 4 inch from the base and in another motor the flame front on the delay was 5.5" from the base. The burn rate of the delay (whistle fuel) was not the same in these two 6lb motor, but did appear to be also the same in 1lb motors. The 1lb motors were different lengths too. So, I am guessing that the heat and pressure caused by the fuel burning in the larger tube MAY have increased the burn rate over the same fuel in the smaller diameter tube. Using a computer firing system I tried to launch 4 rockets (over a period of seconds) and make all rockets salute at the same time. I could do it with 1lb, but not with 6lb. The burn rates just seem to be all over the place. Not bad, but enough to fail the effect I was shooting for. Dan T.


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So I guess Lee, it's either use mineral oil and sacrifice some power in your whistle or learn to live with melting the vasoline and using lacquer thinner. What the heck, it only takes me about an extra 1-1/2 minute to melt the vasoline for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel. I just wouldn't think of any other way to make it. It's just a part of the procedure in my opinion. No big deal. And thanks, Mike. I now have a reason to pick on Lee. _____________________________________ Guys, Mike didn't mention the possible option of dissolving the Vaseline in naphtha, so I went to the Depot and bought some real VM&P Naphtha.. I'll put a glob of Vaseline in a jar, cover it with the naphtha, and shake it a bit, and leave it overnight to see if it dissolves on its own. *didn't have to wait overnight, so far. Put a blob of Vaseline (about 1/4 cup) in about a cup of the naphtha (VM&P) in a Ball jar, and shook it for a minute or two. The blob broke up completely, there's a cloudy solution in the jar,,with a few 1/4" globules which haven't dissolved yet. So, so far, I'd say that a solution of cold Vaseline and VM&P naphtha can be made quite easily. ned



Edited by ned 4/7/2010 6:14 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Danny Creagan Posted 4/7/2010 6:29 PM (#105277 - in reply to #105274) Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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ned - 4/7/2010 5:48 PM Oh, Man,,,a third formula...

Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one solution - he is trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling us these things to drinking from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop. ;-} ----- I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that header. Dan Creagan



ned - 4/7/2010 6:48 PM ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM Oh, Man,,,a third formula... Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor. Thanks, ned Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and use airfloat charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a good rocket. One guy even told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All the more power to him. Isn't that 70-20-10 formula on that sheet somewhere? SLD _____________________________________ I think I wish we were in the same room, sittin' around a table,,chatting, Steve. With all these posts, I think we're passing each other at times. I mentioned in a post above that I wanted to focus on the BP motor for now. The only BP fuel formula I have from you is the one that is BP #1, that I listed in my first post in this whole thread. 75 KNO3 15 airfloat 10 80-mesh 15 36-40 mesh 10 sulfur 5 dextrin



Your instructions say to use this #1 fuel to one increment above the spindle, and then switch to a slower delay fuel such as willow-star-comp for another 2-3 increments. So, you are saying that, really, for the BP rocket, you'd spec: 70 KNO3 20 airfloat 10 sulfur 5 dextrin Use this in the same way, up one increment above the spindle, then switch to the willow-star comp for 2-3 increments? How do you granulate your fuel? How wet do you get it? What size screen do you granulate it through? If we can get these BP motor specs nailed down, that'd be a great start. Thanks, nski

Ned: The very first BP recipe I used for the BP version in the hybrid spindle was 70-20-10-5 BP. The charcoal was commercial airfloat and nothing was ballmilled, just thrown together and screened a few times, riced and dried. It was ready to use. With this fuel, the results were so impressive, I decided to stay with this fuel in the BP version using the H-U version. Along the way with my expermentiong with different fuels and combinations with endburn and hybrid rockets, that formula got on the sheet and was suppose to be used in combination with whistle fuel, and used as a mixture of whistle and BP together. At that point of my work with those rockets, I found that using the 50-50- mixed ratio of whistle and BP combined, you could make a hybrid rocket. You still had to finish rocket with a small amount of 6-30-10-5 BP fuel on the spindle because that 50-50 ratio was still to hot to keep the rocket from catoing. That is where I stopped working with those versions of hybrid rockets. Since then, one of our club members started making those rockets, using this version of Whistle-BP mixe all the way to the top of the spindle without a cato. This was called the # 2 hybrid fuel. He found that he could add between 20-30 parts of whistle fuel to 70 grams of the BP that is listed on the sheet right now-75-15-15-10-5 to get a 100 gram batch of fuel, and when pressed all the way up the spindle and 1 increment over, and then adding a few increments of another fuel for a good bulkhead, the rockets wouldn't cato. So that's how that formula got listed on the sheet. It was meant to be mixed with whistle in a ratio that when mix together and pressed all the way to the top and above the spindle by one increment, the rocket would not cato. The small change of 80 mesh charcoal added came after I pressed up a rocket using the 75-15-15-10-5 pressed alone to make a BP version and the damn thing catoed on ignition. I though, how the hell did that happen? So I assumed that the fuel was to hot to use alone, all the way up the spindle. So I added to that same formula already made with 75-15-15-10-5 an extra 10 parts of 80 mesh charcoal. Then that one got printed of some of the handouts that were distrubuted to some of my customers of my tooling. Along with some of my customers, I added the original formula of the first mix I used for the BP version of 70-20-10-5. I'm not a very good book keeper, and some of the information got kind of screwed up along the way and I didn't care. But now we are getting at the guts of it. Once I realized this formula of 75-15-15-10-5 was only around 60% nitrate based fuel, I knew there was no possibility that using this fuel alone to press up a rocket could cato by itself. So somewhere along the way, I must have screwed up when I made that first rocket using that fuel. I knew I was adding whistle to this fuel in other rockets and it did not cato, but I still didn't know the ratio of whistle to BP to use all the way up the spindle. Someone else figured this out; a 20-30% whistle to BP mix all the way up the spindle and 1 increment above with a good bulkhead above that. So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling. And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that. I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin. And Ned, are you familiar with the #1 version of the hybrid rocket? This version uses booster fuel made with 76-23-1-10-3 whistle fuel. The 10 is additional 10 parts of ballmilled charcoal added



to the mix when making it. This was the formula I was using when the seminar was filmed at the PGI. I can explain this procedure but if you buy the tape, it's all there. It was about 105 degrees that day under the tent. Doc Steinberg filled in with me. SLD


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Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 6:29 PM


Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one solution - he is trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling us these things to drinking from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop. ;-}

That is just so gross!

It is also my favorite joke, its long and drawn out and all the girls are gagging when I get to the punch line.

Dave



didn't have to wait overnight, so far. Put a blob of Vaseline (about 1/4 cup) in about a cup of the naphtha (VM&P) in a Ball jar, and shook it for a minute or two. The blob broke up completely, there's a cloudy solution in the jar,,with a few 1/4" globules which haven't dissolved yet. So, so far, I'd say that a solution of cold Vaseline and VM&P naphtha can be made quite easily. ned Ned: My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor. SLD



Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 7:29 PM


Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one solution - he is trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling us these things to drinking from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop. ;-} That one remindes me of a guy I watched in a bar one night eating popcorn and drinking beer. They were egging him on about something and I didn't quite know what it was about. Finally he agreed and commenced to vomit up and fill his glass right to the brim and it even ran over a bit. It looked like a coke with white blobs mixed in. Then they really started cheering him on. After about a minute, when the cheering got so intense, he raised the glass and drank it down again. I have to admit after watching that show, I really felt queasy. True story. Then his girl friend came up and kissed him and collected a dollar from each of his cheering cohorts. SLD


Online So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial



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charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling. And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that. I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin. _____________________________________________ Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere. That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve. Great! So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT: Fuel .70 KNO3 .20 commercial airfloat charcoal .10 sulfur .05 dextrin (no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?) Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball. Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets. Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky. Allow to dry completely. I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed with a little of the other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little? Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around spindle, and 1/2 tube ID tall above spindle. Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the comp (figured on a solid increment of fuel, no spindle hole). (approximate increment weights and volumes are listed in your other post, and in the table elsewhere in this thread) Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix such as Willow Star Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3 increments of the delay, shooting for a total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the size of the motor. Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead. Add heading to taste. I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in your mouth.) Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've tried. This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling.. nski Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:06 AM



(img034.jpg) Attachments ---------------- img034.jpg (74KB - 0 downloads) ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Posted 4/8/2010 8:47 AM (#105335 - in reply to #105330)



ned Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling

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Ned: My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor. SLD ______________________________________ That's cool, Steve. When we get to spec'ing the whistle and/or strobe fuels, let's get good details on your methods, then we can let others toss in their two cents worth. My first goal is to get the 'inventor of the UTooling' spec's set in stone. ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



ned - 4/8/2010 9:45 AM So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling. And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that. I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin. _____________________________________________ Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere. That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve. Great! So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT: Fuel .70 KNO3 .20 commercial airfloat charcoal .10 sulfur .05 dextrin (no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?) Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball. Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets. Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky. Allow to dry completely. I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed with a little of the other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little? Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around spindle, and 1/2 tube ID tall above spindle. Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the comp (figured on a solid increment of fuel, no spindle hole). Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix such as Willow Star Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3 increments of the delay, shooting for a total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the size of the motor. Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead. Add heading to taste. I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in your mouth.) Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've tried. This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling.. nski



Ned: That fuel, 70-20-10-5 works in ever rocket I made it with up to 1 inch ID. And I assume it will work in the larger versions also. All the chems passed through a 40 mesh screen. The clay increment should be just enough to prevent the spindle from jamming. That's why it's so important to make a line on the rammer to show where this point is on the first rammer. When I make tooling, I always try to make that rammer jam just below a point on the spindle that where a good increment of clay will not allow it to jam. So when you first get a new set of tooling from me, if there isn't already a jam line machined on the rammer, you have to make one yourself. I've made them with and without jam lines machined on them. I am making tooling now with these lines machined on all the rammers. And I/ve thought of machining 2 lines. One to show where the rammer jams, and the lower line to show when it's time to use the next shorter rammer in sequence. Will it help? I don't know. All the other information you quoted is correct. SLD


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Ned: My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor. SLD ______________________________________ Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use? Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example: .76 potassium perchlorate .23 socium salicylate .01 red iron oxide .025 vaseline lacquer thinner Can you elaborate on what quantity of fuel you mix, how fine you get your chems, how you mix them prior to wetting them, how you prepare the solvent mixture, how you add it, and how you dry it, please. (Once again, I know there are plenty of variations on this theme that many of us have personally developed,,and they work. But, for right now, I'm trying to pick Steve's brain on this. Once we get his methods clearly understood, I'll get the Whistle/Long-Winded-Screamer thread going, with his fuel details, and with opportunities for others to note their unique methods.) Thanks, ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use? Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example: Ned: I can tell you never owned a video of any of the rocket seminars that I gave at any of the conventions otherwise you wouldn't have to ask this question. I think I demenstrated my method in everyone of them. For a 1 kilo batch:



Weigh out 760 grms. of p. perc and then in the same container add 10 grms. of either red iron oxide or copper oxichloride for the catalist. Then run this through a gravy strainer 2 times. Then run in through a 40 mesh screen 2 times. Weigh out 230 grms. of sodium salicylate. With the first comp already screened and in a large, plastic bowl, screen the saly through the gravy strainer into the bowl of perc-iron oxide mix. Once all this is in the large mixing bowl, I don my face shield, leather gauntlets, and cover my arms. I then sift all the chems together. What I used to do is place the whole batch in the ballmill and mill it for about 15 minutes. This is an optional step and don't reccomend this to anyone unless you have an area to safely do this without attracting a lot of attention if something goes wrong. The second method is to run everything through the gravy strainer 3 times, as gently as you can. A static spark during this process is the only thing I worry about. Then make a depression in the comp inside the bowl. Weigh out 25 grams of vasoline and place this in a container and melt it with a propane torch. I do this away from the mixed comp of course. Then I take a can of lacquer thinner and carefully pour 1/3 cup full from the can and add this to the container of melted vasoline, carefully, because it will boil up. Once it cools slightly, I'm ready to add more. If you would take a full cup and add it all at once, it probably would not boil up to much because it will cool much faster. I weighed this all out once. I found that a total of 220 grams of vasoline and lacquer thinner was enough for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel, so go figure how much of each is in the container. Pour this into the bowl of whistle fuel and start mixing. I found that using a pastry mixer with the 5 metal knife type teeth to use in this step of mixing up the fuel works the fastest to incorporate the mix. During this time, you may see little granuals of white specks in the mix. This is either perc or most likely sodium salicylate. I use a 1-3/4 inch diamater dowel pin to smear the mix until I don't see any more of these white specks in the mix. It may dry out some while this mixing process is going on so add more lacquer thinner at any time. If you add enough at the start, you shouldn't have to add any during the mixing process. Once all these white specks are gone, then I pound down the mix into a nice firm layer in the bottom of the bowl and get ready to run it through my ricing screen. I have a stainless screen with window sized openings, stretched over a coffee can and held on with a big hose clamp. I proceed to slice out of the bowl some of the comp and push it through the screen. I make 4 piles on 2 sheets of heavy kraft backed by a piece of cardboard, and tape down the edges of the kraft to the cardboard. This kraft is about the size of a piece of news paper. Then I spread out these 4 piles on each as evenly as I can and place the paper in the sun and hold down the corners. And here's a step I never used to do but since I started combining whistle with BP, I like to watch the whistle pretty close at this point so it doesn't dry out to much. On dry days with low humidity, it only takes no more that 10-12 mimutes before the fuel is dry enough but still damp, and I run it through the gravy strainer once more, which has a slightly larges mesh size that the ricing screen. After this, the fuel goes back onto the kraft paper and is fully dried. I like to leave the fuel dry for at least 1 hour in this condition. With this second screening, you eliminate all the bigger chunks that you find in the screened mix if you only screen it once. And it maks for a better homoginous mix when you blend it with the BP. There is a big difference between ricing benzoate and salicylate. Benzoate needs more lacquer thinner than saly when screening if you want it to go through the screen as easy. Only experience will help with this problem, and only experience just making it will give you a better feeling for making it this way. This whole process takes about 1 hour to do. So here you have a scale to go by. I just talked to Steve K. and he told me he was making 15 lb. batches in a 5 gallon pail. He was using a drywall mixer to mix his fuel up. Get the ben. or saly wet first along with the catalist, then slowly dump in the oxidiser and keep mixing. This sounds like a good way to mix large batches, but beware of any sparks from a drill. If you get the stuff pretty wet in the pail, then you will have problems getting it just right before you can rice it. I haven't figured out this yet, but making big batches and doing it only once appeals to me. Of course, this method should appeal to you if one rocket takes 5 lbs. of fuel to make. Enough for 3 rockets. I also would like to say that I only make whistle or any other fuels on sunny days where it can dry with the heat of the sun beating down on it. It really gets crusty dry this way, even if the humidity is fairly high, but have noticed the difference between low and high humidity drying days. After the fuel is completely dry, I hope, then it's stored in a coffee can with a dessicant bag. It probably wouldn't hurt to place it in a zip lock inside the can, along with the dessicant bag. At least your can wouldn't rust out then. 2 more hours of my time, Ned. I'm thinking about charging you for that extra set of tooling. SLD




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That's the info from you that I was hoping to include in the Universal Tooling Motor specs, Steve. Excellent. I'm going to copy it into a dedicated "Making Whistle Fueled Motors with Universal Tooling" thread, then post your specs for actually making the motors. Thanks, n ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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A couple good notes which might prove useful for newcomers who are trying any motors made per all of these spec's: Good tubes, like NEPTubes need to be used with these motors, made with these high pressing pressures. My personal fave nozzle and bulkhead mix techniques are detailed here: http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=107#mi... An interesting discussion about different ways to remove a finished motor from the spindle is included in this thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11605&posts=19... Steve's personal fave method for removing a motor from the spindle involves inserting a solid drift into the top, hollow end of the motor (the motor has to have this hollow end for this technique to work). The solid drift supports the tube as a vice-grip or channel-lock pliers is used to grip that end of the motor securely, avoiding gripping where the fuel grain or clay bulkhead is inside the motor, to avoid damaging it. Then the pliers are used to twist the motor off the spindle, and the tube is only minimally marred by this procedure. Steve also keeps his spindles highly polished, which facilitates the motor removal from them. Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:56 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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And, finally,,, or,,"in the beginning", these are the original instructions that Steve provides with his tooling. Some folks won't get these instructions if they get their tooling elswhere, and maybe having these original instrucitions can prove useful, combined with all of Steve's other specs in these threads: " ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- The hybrid spindle



Five different rockets can be made using the hybrid spindle. Black powder motor Strobe rocket long winded screamer hybrid motor colored tail rocket The black powder . and hybrid motor are the only two that use a nozzle. A rule of thumb when making the strobe and the long winded screamer is to use four increments of the whistle mix pressed first. Of course a nozzle in the hybrid motor or black powder motor, then finish the motor with whatever other fuel being used, according to which motor you are making. An increment is 7 grams, plus or minus 1 gram. It's better to be on the minus side. For the black powder . motor, a nozzle and black powder is all that is needed. For a different tail on the rocket, another fuel may be used other than blk. powder. I use no clay choke above the fuel in my motors except in hybrid motors when lifting heavy payloads because a short delay is built into the rocket which needs added strength to withstand blow through. Fuels Black Powder # 1 Whistle mix # 2 75---- potassium nitrate 76------potassium perchlorate 23---- sodium salicylate 15---- charcoal- ballmilled 1---- iron oxide 5----- 80 mesh 2.5 Vaseline 15--- charcoal-- 36-40 mesh lacquer thinner 10 sulfur 5---dextrin-----water& alcohol Whistle mix--- # 3 64----- potassium perchlorate 32------ sodium benzoate 1----- iron oxide 5---- Vaseline lacquer thinner Strobe mix------ # 4 60------- Ammonium Perchlorate 25------ magnalium-----50-50 -200 mesh 15 ------ barium sulfate 5------ potassium dichromate NC lacquer & acetone about 10% mix of NC lacquer Each fuel was given a #. These are referenced when making each motor. In increments: --------> means the rest of the way Strobe rocket 4---- # 2 (four increments of #2 whistle fuel) --------> #4 to 1/8" above the spindle, then finish with 2-3 more increments of # 2 for a bulk head. Long winded screamer



4----#2 ------->---#3 all the way to the top of the rocket tube. Leave enough space to grab the motor with a vice grip to pull it off the spindle after inserting the solid rammer into it. On the increments above the spindle, I always add flake titanium in each scoop before I press it in. Black Powder Motor 1---- clay choke--- about a teaspoon -------> # 1 to one increment above the spindle. 2 to 3 additional increments of a slower burning fuel, like willow mix or chrysanthemum of mystery or a color fuel, as long as it doesn't have potassium chlorate for an oxidizer. You want about a 5 second delay above the rocket for which this fuel above the spindle gives you. Hybrid motor This motor has some latitude in how many increments of whistle mix you can use, but start with four increments first and don't forget your nozzle first. The first increments consist of: 76-----potassium perchlorate 23----- sodium salicylate 1----- iron oxide 10----- ballmilled charcoal------do this to the charcoal I've added as many as 7 increments of the whistle mix with the added charcoal before they would blow. Finish the rocket with a mix of 60---- potassium nitrate 30----- charcoal 10 sulfur and 5 parts dextrin. This fuel has to be riced with water and alcohol before it can be used, the same as the # 1 fuel. You can finish the rocket with this mix or you can press in a slower fuel such as willow mix also or a color fuel about 1" above the last increment of rocket fuel. These rockets go so high it won't hurt to have a long delay built into it. The best ending to have on there rockets it to use willow mix above the rocket fuel and use a pinch of titanium, atomized in each increment as it is pressed in to at least 3/4" above the spindle. This gives you the nice titanium tail that hangs in the air for a while. I know I've dumped a lot of information on you as it took me 35 years to develop these motors themselves. I know you will have questions. Just ask. One thing to mention is that I rice all of my fuels that I use to make motors. This is a must. For all of the whistle mixes I use lacquer thinner and the blk. pwd.fuels I use water and alchol and for the strobe I use acetone For the colored tail rocket, press in three increments of # 2 whistle mix, then press the color of your choice to about 1 inch above the spindle. Most colored fuels burn not too fast so 1 inch above the spindle is a starting point. Vary the amount above the spindle to get the required delay. If the colored fuel burns real slow, just add and extra increment of whistle to the rocket before starting the colored fuel. The hybrid fuel used for this rocket can be changed to what I call my hybrid #2 fuel. This is a blend of whistle mix and black pwd. to a ratio of 65-35 by weight with the 65 being whistle mix. The blk. pwd. ratio itself is the # 1 mix and the whistle mix is the # 2 mix. I'm not sure just how much of the blend can be used in the rocket, but so far, I've used it all the way up to about 1 inch from the top of the spindle and then finished the rocket with 60-30-10-2.5 blk. pwd. without a cato. I'm sure you can change the ratio to be able to use it all the way to the top and 1 increment above the spindle and then use something else for the delay above it. This is a fairly new twist to this fuel for this spindle and I haven't finished expermenting with it yet. This same fuel, # 2 hybrid works excellent in end burn rockets also. All the coarse charcoal gives the rocket a nice charcoal tail. Mike, please send back this email to me so I can copy it and save it. Whenever I hit the save draft button, it just doesn't do it. This way, I can save your email that you send back. Thanks. Steve La Duke " ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl




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Also, for anyone new to fusing motors which start with an increment of whistle fuel, and no nozzle, it can be important to fuse them correctly. With most of these motors, installing a fuse up into the core of the motor is asking for a CATO. The fuse must ignite the whistle fuel right at the bottom, as close to where that fuel grain meets the tube inside wall as possible. In this article, I've detailed my fave method for installing that Visco fuse. It's easy and simple, it ignites the motor whistle fuel in just the right spot, and the fuse never falls out of the end of the motor. The only trick is to drill the fuse hole in the tube-wall prior to pressing the fuel. http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=153#ar... ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

ned Posted 4/8/2010 9:12 AM (#105336) Subject: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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I'd like to have a thread dedicated to each type of motor that can be made with LaDuke-Design's Universal Rocket Tooling. This is the bottom line we're getting to on the BP motor. I'd like to get verification from Steve that all this looks good to him. Then, if others would like to ask questions, or add comments on their personal variations on this type of motor, made on this type of tooling, we can have at it. Please, let's keep comments and questions in this thread pertinent to this motor, on this tooling. It can then become a useful, dedicated resource for others in the future. ned _______________________________________________ Quote from Steve: "So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling. And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that. I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin." _____________________________________________ Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere. That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve. Great! So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT: Fuel .70 KNO3 .20 commercial airfloat charcoal .10 sulfur .05 dextrin (no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?) Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball. Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets. Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky. Allow to dry completely. I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed with a little of the other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little? Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around spindle, and 1/2 tube ID tall above spindle. Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the comp (figured on a solid increment of fuel, no spindle hole).



(approximate increment weights and volumes are listed in your other post, and in the table elsewhere in this thread) Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix such as Willow Star Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3 increments of the delay, shooting for a total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the size of the motor. Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead. Add heading to taste. I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in your mouth.) Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've tried. This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling.. nski Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:06 AM (img034.jpg) Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:16 AM



(img034.jpg) Attachments ---------------- img034.jpg (74KB - 0 downloads) ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to



choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

ned Posted 4/8/2010 9:24 AM (#105340 - in reply to #105336) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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From Steve, "Ned: That fuel, 70-20-10-5 works in ever rocket I made it with up to 1 inch ID. And I assume it will work in the larger versions also. All the chems passed through a 40 mesh screen. The clay increment should be just enough to prevent the spindle from jamming. That's why it's so important to make a line on the rammer to show where this point is on the first rammer. When I make tooling, I always try to make that rammer jam just below a point on the spindle that where a good increment of clay will not allow it to jam. So when you first get a new set of tooling from me, if there isn't already a jam line machined on the rammer, you have to make one yourself. I've made them with and without jam lines machined on them. I am making tooling now with these lines machined on all the rammers. And I/ve thought of machining 2 lines. One to show where the rammer jams, and the lower line to show when it's time to use the next shorter rammer in sequence. Will it help? I don't know. All the other information you quoted is correct. SLD" ___________________________________________________ Steve, others will be getting UTooling from other providers, or making it for themselves, so the jam point between the spindle and the nozzle-rammer will probably vary in height from one tool set to another. Can you specify the "nozzle throat height", excluding the convergent and divergent tapers, for a motor? It would be great if it can be spec'd in terms of the motor tube ID. That way it can be extrapolated to other motor sizes. For example, is the "nozzle throat height" in one of your 3/4" ID motors, say 1/2" tall,,,or 3/4" tall?? (say, 2/3 or 1 tube ID tall?) This would provide a more specific spec on the nozzle height for those whose tooling does not jam at the same place as the tooling you make. And I think the two machined lines on the rammers would be of extreme benefit to users, Steve. And, I guess I'd add a personal note here. If I'm ordering UTooling,,I'm ordering it from Steve, if he has the time and ability to make it. I love the other tool makers, and am grateful for them, but Steve invented this tooling, I consider his tooling to be real works of art,,and I consider it a responsibility to compensate him for his UT efforts.. ned Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:27 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl




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I've added: "Univ Tooling BP Motor Fuel" into the Formulas database: Formulas Shared Rocket BP fuel Univ Tooling BP Motor Fuel n ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Mike B Posted 4/8/2010 10:19 AM (#105352 - in reply to #105346) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's


Finally a thread with some real meat in it. Seems for a while there was nothing but nebulous bs. Good job Steve and Ned. Thank you.


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Here is the cleaned-up version of the Increment Sizes Table, with the latest info from Steve included. http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf The top part of the chart started with some basic info from Steve, and then was expanded based on volume sizes. Then Steve added his expanded info, which is in the table's bottom section. This ought to provide good starting points as folks dial in their fuel-increment sizes. n Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:41 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/8/2010 10:43 AM (#105356 - in reply to #105340) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's


others will be getting UTooling from other providers, or making it for themselves, so the jam point between the spindle and the nozzle-rammer will probably vary in height from one tool set to another. Can you specify the "nozzle throat height", excluding the convergent and divergent tapers, for a motor



Ned: That first increment that is pressed into the rocket, whether it be clay or fuel, should keep the rammer from sticking onto the spindle. That is about all the information I can give you. I don't know what that dimension is because I never measured it. And if it really matters, I don't think it makes much difference how much clay you add to that first increment. I will hardly make a differenc in the performance of the rocket. Like I said, enough clay to prevent the rammer from sticking. SLD

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/8/2010 10:46 AM (#105357 - in reply to #105336) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Okay ... what the hell is the difference between a heaping and a round teaspoon?



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Ned: That first increment that is pressed into the rocket, whether it be clay or fuel, should keep the rammer from sticking onto the spindle. That is about all the information I can give you. I don't know what that dimension is because I never measured it. And if it really matters, I don't think it makes much difference how much clay you add to that first increment. I will hardly make a differenc in the performance of the rocket. Like I said, enough clay to prevent the rammer from sticking. SLD _____________________________________ My thought is that with some tooling (by other makers, perhaps), the rammer Never sticks on the spindle, Steve. It'll slide all the way down until it hits the start of the divergent part of the spindle. But, if we spec an 'increment' of the clay, as determined in the 'increment size chart',,that ought to get folks in the ballpark of a good increment height, I guess. ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl


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Okay ... what the hell is the difference between a heaping and a round teaspoon? ___________________________________ In the terminology in my haid, Lee, a Heaping spoonful is the most one can keep on the spoon after dipping it in the powder, and a Round spoonful has had the excess powder tapped off, so the increment is rounded off..but not Heaping.. then, once again in my haid, there's the Slightly Rounded spoonful, which has had most of the excess fuel tapped off, but is still,,,slightly rounded.. and then there's the flat spoonful, where the powder is flat with the edges of the spoon.



The real goal of course is to dial in a 'personal' measuring scoopful which achieves the right height of a pressed increment,, 1/2 tube ID tall above the spindle, 2/3 tube ID tall around the spindle.. Close enuf, nski Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:55 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/8/2010 11:01 AM (#105360 - in reply to #105336) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Ah, I got ya.

I'm gonna make me up some scoops, now that you've done all the figgerin' for us.


steve laduke Posted 4/8/2010 11:02 AM (#105361 - in reply to #105336) Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's


OK, guys. So with that chart, and when making any rockets that don't use a nozzle. multiply the whistle fuel increment times 4 to get the total amount of whistle fuel that is used for that particular rocket that is pressed in first. On the original sheet that I gave out to my customers where it says and the rest of the fuel with the arrow, this is when you begin to press the other fuel to the top of the spindle and 1 increment above. You can change the fuel at this point to something else, or use the same fuel for the bulkhead. It's up to you what you want in the tail of the rocket. The only rocket where I increment above the spindle would not be correct is in the strobe rocket. 1 full increment would be to much delay, and I always specify no more that around 3/16 or slight more in this part of the rocket. The strobe rocket is always completed with at least 2-1/2 increments of fast whistle with ti added. You can add whatever you want to get a secure bulkhead into this rocket. SLD



My thought is that with some tooling (by other makers, perhaps), the rammer Never sticks on the spindle, Steve. It'll slide all the way down until it hits the start of the divergent part of the spindle. But, if we spec an 'increment' of the clay, as determined in the 'increment size chart',,that ought to get folks in the ballpark of a good increment height, I guess. ned Ned: Your are absolutely right. So the amount of clay isn't critical. Just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle, or with my tooling, just so it doesn't stick to the spindle. And being in the ballpark here is close enough. SLD




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Ned: Your are absolutely right. So the amount of clay isn't critical. Just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle, or with my tooling, just so it doesn't stick to the spindle. And being in the ballpark here is close enough. SLD ___________________________ I know we're pretty much on the same page now, Steve. But if Joe "newbie" Blow hears, "just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle"...he can press a nozzle which only has a 'pointy, wedge-shaped nozzle throat', which comes to a sharp point which will be instantly eroded by high-pressure gasses.. There just simply has to be a minimum nozzle throat height, when using a clay nozzle, which will resist erosion by hot gasses. The sketch below illustrates my point. In my opinion, the nozzle throat height is simply not tall enough to resist erosion, even though there was enough clay used to 'prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle." Your nozzle forming rammer which pinches the spindle at X height above the divergent spindle start, accomplishes the pressing of a good nozzle height. Tools by other makers might not accomplish that. That's why I think it's important to spec at least a measured increment of the clay, to create some good nozzle-throat height which will resist erosion. nski Edited by ned 4/8/2010 11:24 AM

(img035.jpg) Attachments ---------------- img035.jpg (18KB - 0 downloads) ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



dapaki Posted 4/8/2010 11:41 AM (#105368 - in reply to #105360) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Lee C. Bussy - 4/8/2010 11:01 AM

Ah, I got ya.

I'm gonna make me up some scoops, now that you've done all the figgerin' for us.

Lee,

I made scoops from copper caps and coated pipe hangers fro the Home Depot. They are quick to make, you can cut them down to size and are both spark and static proof.

Edited by dapaki 4/8/2010 11:44 AM

(100_0243.JPG)



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Ol Baldy Posted 4/8/2010 12:52 PM (#105373 - in reply to #105336) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Ned I'm going to throw in my $.02 worth here. My prefered straight BP fuel for the 1# H-U tooling is 75-15-15-10+5. The second 15 is coarse charcoal. This is one of SLD's formulas which hasn't been mentioned yet. I use my stock BP mix, which is 75-15-10+5 dex. I make this in the ball mill. Nitrate and fuel milled seperatley for 2 hours and then all together in the pool for 1 additional hour. I use this base BP for just about everything. For rocket fuel I just screen in 15% 30-40 mesh charcoal for a nice tail. This works out to about 69-13-13-9. However I don't believe the coarse coal takes place in the reaction much. I looks like most of it burns outside the motor. I'm going to try some made with aluminum for a tail sometime. I've been using Western Red Cedar to make my charcoal. According to Danny Creagan., it is almost as quick as balsa. This fuel is pressed to 7500#. A month ago I was at SLD's estate and we pressed up a couple rockets on his press, (I gotta get me one of those!) and flew 'em. Steve thought mine was pretty zippy. A later test showed my fuel to be a bit faster than his. The upshot is, Steve's tooling can stand the hottest black powder you can make. I've got a series of 1#'rs made up with my fuel with added hot whistle mix to test at the next club shoot. 10%-35% whistle. I'm guessing up 30% whistle won't CATO. One at 40% blew up last year. Baldy



Ol Baldy Posted 4/8/2010 1:10 PM (#105374 - in reply to #105373) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Baldy babbled...For rocket fuel I just screen in 15% 30-40 mesh charcoal for a nice tail. I forgot to mention I then dampen and screen it through a 16 mesh screen and dry it on newspaper in the sun if available. I then sift it with a 10 mesh screen to take out the lumps. I also want to thank Ned for his efforts on this thread. Tom

DWC Posted 4/8/2010 1:19 PM (#105375 - in reply to #105373) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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FWIW I've only used SLD H-U tooling ( bought from Rich Wolter,... sorry Steve) to make my 3# BP motors. I've settled in at 63-27 -10 fuel, ball milled, made with spruce C, riced. Fuel to the top of the spindle and .600" win 39 delay. No bulkhead. The motor will comfortably lift a 600g 4" headering. I know the motor is capable of hotter fuel, but I like having the motor de-rated for grace and reliability. Four level tsp nozzle mix gives me an aprox. .5" throated nozzle. Never had one fail. ----- Dan "90% ain't good enough in this hobby" TR

ned Posted 4/8/2010 1:25 PM (#105376 - in reply to #105375) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Thanks Tom and Dan.. This is the kind of 'addendum' info I'm going to print out, and refer to for future experimentation. You put a dozen of our great minds together, pointed in the right direction by Steve,,,and we'll end up with...a dozen nice, different rocket models.. nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

ned Posted 4/8/2010 2:03 PM (#105377 - in reply to #105375) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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I've settled in at 63-27 -10 fuel, ball milled, made with spruce C, riced. Fuel to the top of the spindle and .600" win 39 delay. No bulkhead. _________________________________ Dan, are you using any dex in your fuel? It doesn't seem like it was ever 'traditional' to use dex in the BP rocket fuels, but the inclusion of it does seem like it'd produce nice, tough, non-dusty granules, which will press solidly under the kinds of pressure we're talkin' about. Dex will also slow a fuel down a bit, too.. n ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."



Viktor Frankl

DWC Posted 4/8/2010 7:44 PM (#105410 - in reply to #105377) Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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No dextrin. Just wetted with about 25% water. patted into a ball and riced thru a 12 mesh sceen. I know 25% sounds high but that's what it takes with the spruce C. And I press to 6500 psi which is another advantage to a de-tuned motor. I don't have to get nutty about loading pressure. Edited by DWC 4/8/2010 7:53 PM ----- Dan "90% ain't good enough in this hobby" TR



And, I guess I'd add a personal note here. If I'm ordering UTooling,,I'm ordering it from Steve, if he has the time and ability to make it. I love the other tool makers, and am grateful for them, but Steve invented this tooling, I consider his tooling to be real works of art,,and I consider it a responsibility to compensate him for his UT efforts.. ned This whoe thread will difinately help the other tool makers when I decide to retire from making tooling. Only then will my instruction match the tools. Every other tool maker adds his special design to his tools. And if those dimensions don't match mine, that throws off something along the way. For instance, where my first rammer jams onto the spindle. I have a reason for this. The only way around this feature is take a new set of tooling and mark yourself, the jam points of the rammers to be sure you don't jam those rammers. And it's a simple step to a lot of headachs. I know guys want to save money when buying rocket tools sets. That's fine with me. When I make up a tools set, it takes me about 5 hours. I can't stand that long anymore in one spot so it takes me at least 2 days to complete a set. And then consider material I have to buy to make the tooling. Add that in as my cost. I'm proud of a set of tooling I make. There are things I do that I know no other tool maker does to the tooling, and it shows when you make a rocket, whether you know it or not. And you may wait a while before you get your tooling from me. This is not a occupation for me but a hobby or past time that I enjoy doing less and less. And at this point in my life, I can't say I always feel like standing in from of a lathe to make tooling. So that is why the tooling you get from me is more "Expensive" that the other guys. But there are a few that insist they get their tooling from me. I appreciate this, and I think they know something that other rocket guys don't know. So as long as I'm able and feel like doing it, I will continue to make tools. And I do appreciate the little compensation I get from the other tool makers that copy my tooling. That's what gives me the pleasure of inventing some new ideas that we can all use if the future to make rockets. I sure hate to see this hobby die out. SLD SLD

steve kursinsky Posted 4/10/2010 6:31 AM (#105589 - in reply to #105340) Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

Offline Ned I really feel the same way about Steve's tooling. I intend to have a full set of the



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sizes in the UT. Steve signs the bottom of all his tools. I consider it a honor to have and use them. I sincerely doubt that Steve gets much in the way of royalty checks from the guy's that copy his tooling. And that is just what they are copies. ----- Steve Kursinsky Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.

ned Posted 4/10/2010 7:07 AM (#105590 - in reply to #105589) Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's

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Yep, Steve,,and that's saying something coming from you, who has the ability to machine his own tooling.. And, you and I know that Steve L aint gettin' rich from making the tooling himself.. When I look at one of his tooling sets, and ponder what he gets for them, I wonder how he can do it for that.. I have 3 new sets on the way.. ned Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:08 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



I know we're pretty much on the same page now, Steve. But if Joe "newbie" Blow hears, "just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle"...he can press a nozzle which only has a 'pointy, wedge-shaped nozzle throat', which comes to a sharp point which will be instantly eroded by high-pressure gasses.. There just simply has to be a minimum nozzle throat height, when using a clay nozzle, which will resist erosion by hot gasses. Quote from Ned With a little common sense at this stage of making rockets, this is where that jam line is so important. So if a person drops his rammer down onto the spindle with a rocket tube inside the sleeve and marks his rammer at the jam point on the sleeve, and then removes the sleeve and tube from the spindle and then drop the rammer down onto the spindle once again and note where this jam point is, you can clearly see just how much clay it will take to make a good nozzle. Raise the rammer to where the rammer should be after the clay is add, and this should be above the jam line that yo put on the rammer, and when the clay is pressed in, that line should be approximately 3/16-1/4 inch above the sleeve. Very simple observation to make before you even begin to start pressing. I still do this today before I begin pressing a nozzle or a first incremnet in a rocket. So if you are using my tooling or someone else's, this is no big decision of how much clay to use on that nozzle. If you drop in an increment and start pressing and that jam line you put on the rammer gets close to the tip of the sleeve before you put full pressure on the rammer, you know you need more clay or comp to complete that increment from jaming the spindle. It sure ain't rocket science on this one. SLD



Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/9/2010 11:23 AM (#105483) Subject: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is now the thread dedicated to making whistle motors with the Universal Tooling. We'll focus on the fuels first, then the motor specs. The whistle motor that Steve spec's for making with the UT is the Long Winded Screamer. This motor uses two fuels, a fast one, and a slow one. Adjusting the amounts of these fuels is the way the motors are dialed in. (The hot whistle fuel is used as a "Booster Section" in Steve's "Strobe" motors, "Whistle-Boosted BP" motors, "Whistle Boosted Colored Tail" motors, and the fuel is also used as a component of the "Hybrid Motor Fuel"...so this whistle fuel info is pretty important to the construction of all those motors.) Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel) .76 potassium perchlorate .23 sodium salicylate .01 red iron oxide .025 vaseline +lacquer thinner Whistle Mix #3 (slower whistle fuel) .64 potassium perchlorate .32 sodium benzoate .01 red iron oxide .05 vaseline +lacquer thinner Here are the posts which lead to Steve detailing his 'making whistle fuel' method. There are, of course other variations on this theme of mixing whistle fuel, including Dan McMurray's method, and the 'baggie' method detailed by a couple other 'Dans', among others. These can be mentioned after we get Steve's method set in stone. ______________________________________________ Ned: My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor. SLD ______________________________________ From ned: Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use? Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example:



.76 potassium perchlorate .23 socium salicylate .01 red iron oxide .025 vaseline lacquer thinner Can you elaborate on what quantity of fuel you mix, how fine you get your chems, how you mix them prior to wetting them, how you prepare the solvent mixture, how you add it, and how you dry it, please. (Once again, I know there are plenty of variations on this theme that many of us have personally developed,,and they work. But, for right now, I'm trying to pick Steve's brain on this. Once we get his methods clearly understood, I'll get the Whistle/Long-Winded-Screamer thread going, with his fuel details, and with opportunities for others to note their unique methods.) Thanks, ned ----- __________________________________________________ From Steve: Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use? Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example: Ned: I can tell you never owned a video of any of the rocket seminars that I gave at any of the conventions otherwise you wouldn't have to ask this question. I think I demenstrated my method in everyone of them. For a 1 kilo batch: Weigh out 760 grms. of p. perc and then in the same container add 10 grms. of either red iron oxide or copper oxichloride for the catalist. Then run this through a gravy strainer 2 times. Then run in through a 40 mesh screen 2 times. Weigh out 230 grms. of sodium salicylate. With the first comp already screened and in a large, plastic bowl, screen the saly through the gravy strainer into the bowl of perc-iron oxide mix. Once all this is in the large mixing bowl, I don my face shield, leather gauntlets, and cover my arms. I then sift all the chems together. What I used to do is place the whole batch in the ballmill and mill it for about 15 minutes. This is an optional step and don't reccomend this to anyone unless you have an area to safely do this without attracting a lot of attention if something goes wrong. The second method is to run everything through the gravy strainer 3 times, as gently as you can. A static spark during this process is the only thing I worry about. Then make a depression in the comp inside the bowl. Weigh out 25 grams of vasoline and place this in a container and melt it with a propane torch. I do this away from the mixed comp of course. Then I take a can of lacquer thinner and carefully pour 1/3 cup full from the can and add this to the container of melted vasoline, carefully, because it will boil up. Once it cools slightly, I'm ready to add more. If you would take a full cup and add it all at once, it probably would not boil up to much because it will cool much faster. I weighed this all out once. I found that a total of 220 grams of vasoline and lacquer thinner was enough for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel, so



go figure how much of each is in the container. Pour this into the bowl of whistle fuel and start mixing. I found that using a pastry mixer with the 5 metal knife type teeth to use in this step of mixing up the fuel works the fastest to incorporate the mix. During this time, you may see little granuals of white specks in the mix. This is either perc or most likely sodium salicylate. I use a 1-3/4 inch diamater dowel pin to smear the mix until I don't see any more of these white specks in the mix. It may dry out some while this mixing process is going on so add more lacquer thinner at any time. If you add enough at the start, you shouldn't have to add any during the mixing process. Once all these white specks are gone, then I pound down the mix into a nice firm layer in the bottom of the bowl and get ready to run it through my ricing screen. I have a stainless screen with window sized openings, stretched over a coffee can and held on with a big hose clamp. I proceed to slice out of the bowl some of the comp and push it through the screen. I make 4 piles on 2 sheets of heavy kraft backed by a piece of cardboard, and tape down the edges of the kraft to the cardboard. This kraft is about the size of a piece of news paper. Then I spread out these 4 piles on each as evenly as I can and place the paper in the sun and hold down the corners. And here's a step I never used to do but since I started combining whistle with BP, I like to watch the whistle pretty close at this point so it doesn't dry out to much. On dry days with low humidity, it only takes no more that 10-12 mimutes before the fuel is dry enough but still damp, and I run it through the gravy strainer once more, which has a slightly larges mesh size that the ricing screen. After this, the fuel goes back onto the kraft paper and is fully dried. I like to leave the fuel dry for at least 1 hour in this condition. With this second screening, you eliminate all the bigger chunks that you find in the screened mix if you only screen it once. And it maks for a better homoginous mix when you blend it with the BP. There is a big difference between ricing benzoate and salicylate. Benzoate needs more lacquer thinner than saly when screening if you want it to go through the screen as easy. Only experience will help with this problem, and only experience just making it will give you a better feeling for making it this way. This whole process takes about 1 hour to do. So here you have a scale to go by. I just talked to Steve K. and he told me he was making 15 lb. batches in a 5 gallon pail. He was using a drywall mixer to mix his fuel up. Get the ben. or saly wet first along with the catalist, then slowly dump in the oxidiser and keep mixing. This sounds like a good way to mix large batches, but beware of any sparks from a drill. If you get the stuff pretty wet in the pail, then you will have problems getting it just right before you can rice it. I haven't figured out this yet, but making big batches and doing it only once appeals to me. Of course, this method should appeal to you if one rocket takes 5 lbs. of fuel to make. Enough for 3 rockets. I also would like to say that I only make whistle or any other fuels on sunny days where it can dry with the heat of the sun beating down on it. It really gets crusty dry this way, even if the humidity is fairly high, but have noticed the difference between low and high humidity drying days. After the fuel is completely dry, I hope, then it's stored in a coffee can with a dessicant bag. It probably wouldn't hurt to place it in a zip lock inside the can, along with the dessicant bag. At least your can wouldn't rust out then. 2 more hours of my time, Ned. I'm thinking about charging you for that extra set of tooling. SLD



Edited by ned 4/9/2010 11:25 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/9/2010 11:30 AM (#105484 - in reply to #105483) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling


Ned: I spent 2 hours writing that on another thread. SLD

ned Posted 4/9/2010 12:21 PM (#105496 - in reply to #105483) Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Here's a sketch of a Long Winded Screamer Rocket Motor, made with the Universal Tooling. In his handout, Steve spec's: "4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2. Then increments of Whistle Fuel #3 all the way to the top of the rocket tube, but leaving enough empty space to grab the motor with a vice-grip (with a solid drift in the tube-end) to pull it off the spindle. In the increments above the spindle, I always add flake Titanium in each scoop before I press it in." Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and also the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. 4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will bring that fuel up to aproximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting this amount of the hot fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in. Adjusting the total amount of the slow whistle fuel is how the total flight time of the motors is dialed in. http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf Edited by ned 4/9/2010 12:37 PM



(LWS Sketch.jpg) Attachments



---------------- LWS Sketch.jpg (88KB - 0 downloads) ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/9/2010 12:39 PM (#105503 - in reply to #105483) Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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I thought I might add that the first increment of whistle needs a little more ... I think I've either been doing 12 grams or a full double increment (14g) on the first one to avoid binding (1# motor). ----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704

Dan Thames Posted 4/9/2010 12:40 PM (#105504 - in reply to #105483) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling


Location: Arkansas

Ned, the image shows TI could be pressed around the upper part of the spindle. If the drift is very loose on the spindle and the IT is small, this may never cause a problem. But everyone, be careful in doing this. Make sure everything is plenty loose so the TI don't get pinched. Dan T.

ned Posted 4/9/2010 12:53 PM (#105510 - in reply to #105504) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Thanks for noticing that, Dan... I made a note on the sketch of that point, in addition to Steve's note about only adding Ti to the increments above the spindle. (Dan, can you post the link to your vid of mixing whistle fuel using the baggie method, so we can all see that option, too..) And, Lee,,that's a great point, too, if one is using Steve's tooling which gets snug on the spindle about one-increment high. ned Edited by ned 4/9/2010 12:56 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to



choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Dan Thames Posted 4/9/2010 2:19 PM (#105523 - in reply to #105483) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling


Location: Arkansas

Ned, I think Gene is the one that directed me to using a bag. I use Dan McMurray's method, sort of, but in a bag. http://www.pyrobin.com/files/making-na-benz-whistle-fuel.wmv If it not clear in the video, I like minerial oil with NaBenz and vaseline and lacquer thinner with NaSal. Those combinations seem to rice the best and I can't tell any performance difference. Dan T.

ned Posted 4/11/2010 8:44 AM (#105686 - in reply to #105496) Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these rockets. 4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted in the Increment Table. This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the spindle that fuel section comes in his motor. "This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using the Hybrid-Universal tooling. It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is closer to 1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry about this mistake. If you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of whistle, you will see that it only takes up about one third of the spindle. SLD" ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

ned Posted 4/12/2010 8:00 AM (#105786 - in reply to #105686) Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Has anyone dialed down a whistle fuel which will work as the only fuel in a whistle motor made on the Universal Tooling? One of the advantages, of course, of using the two fuels in the Long Winded Screamer, is that the proportions of the two fuel increments can be adjusted to vary the power of the motor, just short of CATOing,,,and then the delay can be changed by varying the total amount of the slow fuel that is used above the spindle.



I'm just wondering if a slowed fuel could be developed which could be the only fuel used with the UT in a whistle motor, more along the lines of a standard, short spindle motor. ned Edited by ned 4/12/2010 8:07 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

dapaki Posted 4/12/2010 9:29 AM (#105796 - in reply to #105483) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Why not do a 50/50 mix of the two fuels? Is that even a possibility? Dave

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/12/2010 10:09 AM (#105804 - in reply to #105796) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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dapaki - 4/12/2010 9:29 AM Why not do a 50/50 mix of the two fuels? Is that even a possibility? Dave

It would be a reasonable place to start ... but that still means you have to make two. Making one is better if all you ever do is U/H motors. If you do make dedicated whistle motors then you'd still want both types around. A single fuel would be easier for new guys, but I think I would still prefer two fuels in a LWS. The Saly/Cu whistle is faster than all get-out but the sound suffers, the Benz/FeO is the real howler and you can enjoy it after the initial jump.

I know! (Steve will think this is sacrilege) Make the "hot" fuel with KBenz and see if that's not perfect for "the one ring" approach.


dapaki Posted 4/12/2010 10:48 AM (#105811 - in reply to #105483)



Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Couple of things: Can I lift a heavy payload to 400' on one of the whistle motors, why or why not. Will the extra resistance to lift from a heavy payload increase the likelihood of CATO? Dave



If it not clear in the video, I like minerial oil with NaBenz and vaseline and lacquer thinner with NaSal. Those combinations seem to rice the best and I can't tell any performance difference. Dan, I simply cannot see how it is possible that your saly whistle performs no different that you beny whistle does. Something is wrong with the saly that you are using. Either it is not true airmilled or it is some awfully shitty salicylate. Have you ever tried a different saly from a different supplier or a different batch? Maybe what you think is saly is actually beny? SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:02 AM

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/12/2010 10:57 AM (#105815 - in reply to #105811) Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling

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dapaki - 4/12/2010 10:48 AM Couple of things: Can I lift a heavy payload to 400' on one of the whistle motors, why or why not. Will the extra resistance to lift from a heavy payload increase the likelihood of CATO? Dave

Depends on what you think is heavy. A typical 3" shell (can or round) will go almost too high on a 1# whistle.

There is some debate over whether (or how) a heavier load causes a CATO. If you have a well tuned motor that's not on the ragged edge anyway, you should be fine. A rocket with a header will actually fly higher (within reason). The impulse is so short, having some inertia helps keep it coasting in the right direction.



Online Guys:




I have taken a dedicated strobe spindle in the 7/8 inch diamater, which is about 3-1/2 inch long and pressed up a motor using saly fuel made with a ratio of 64-32-1-5 and it flew just great. How much longer of a core before those rockets will cato, I don't know. Using the same spindle and benzoate with the same ratio, the rocket hardly flys. That's the difference between benzoate and salicylate. So if you change the ratio with benzoate, and up the ratio of oxidiser to maybe a 70-30-1-4, I think that rocket will fly darn good all the way up the spindle. You would have to tweak the fuel but I know it would work with benzoate. One could only try salicylate at a ratio of 64-32-1-5 and see what would happen. All these fuels were bound with lacquer thinner and vasoline. Using oil and acetone woud further slow down this fuel and I have never tried this approach but it is worth a try. Potassium and sodium benzoate are about the same power, in my opinion, so it would be no sin to try P. ben. in this experiment. The catalist that I used in my experiments was iron oxide. And I found out, and something I didn't mention during my work with LWS motors, the rocket would cato on occasions if I used copper oxichloride in the benzoate, slower fuel. So I think this should be mentioned in the instructions on making them. With a LWS rocket, use only iron oxide in the benzoate mix. Using c oxi chlor. makes the benzoate fuel burn to fast. A very impoortant step in making up the benzoate fuel for these rockets. I have tried blending benzoate and salicylate whistle fuels together and see what would happen to the sound and power. One could do this, but I see no advantage to gaining anything that can't be done by just changing the ratio of a single fuel itself. So I was rather unimpressed with these experiments. Maybe stretching the salicylate would be one advantage to blending the fuels. SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:35 AM



Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/9/2010 5:35 PM (#105540) Subject: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is now the thread dedicated to making strobe motors with the Universal Tooling. Steve LaDuke's methods are detailed first, and individual users' methods can be added as useful notes. The fuels used are: Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel) .76 potassium perchlorate .23 sodium salicylate .01 red iron oxide .025 vaseline + lacquer thinner Strobe Mix #4 .60 ammonium perchlorate .25 magnalium 50/50, -200 mesh .15 barium sulfate .05 potassium dichromate .02 vaseline +lacquer thinner Steve's methods of making these fuels are detailed in the "Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling" thread. Here's a sketch of a Strobe Motor, made with the Universal Tooling. In his handout, Steve spec's: "4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2. Then increments of Strobe Fuel to 1/8" above the tip of the spindle. Then finish with 2-3 more increments of the Whistle Fuel #2 for a bulkhead." It is important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing its do-not-pass line. It is also very important to note that the strobe fuel must not be pinched between a solid rammer and the tip of the spindle. That could set the motor off in the press. Safety shields on presses that are being used to press whistle and/or strobe fuels are a Very Good Idea. Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and also the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. 4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting this amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in. It is important to not press too much strobe fuel above the tip of the spindle. Strobe fuel burns slowly, and too much of it can result in rockets which touch down still burning.



Adjusting the amount of the whistle fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of the motors is dialed in. Other delay fuels such as colored fuel can be used in that top fuel section, but less of any slower burning delay fuel should be used. http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf Edited by ned 4/9/2010 5:57 PM



(strobe motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- strobe motor sketch.jpg (96KB - 0 downloads)



----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

ned Posted 4/9/2010 5:38 PM (#105542 - in reply to #105540) Subject: RE: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Steve has added the note to the strobe fuel that there is some current conjecture that increasing the amount of vaseline in the mix will increase the strobe rate as the fuel burns. ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

ned Posted 4/9/2010 8:49 PM (#105572 - in reply to #105542) Subject: RE: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This thread; "Any advice on how to handle Dichromate" should be a must-read in this strobe thread: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11648&post... ned Edited by ned 4/9/2010 8:51 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/10/2010 9:41 AM (#105612 - in reply to #105540) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling


Ned: Yer gettin the knack of maken um. I might add here that tweaking the fuel burn rate of the strobe, or strobe rate frequence can be fun in itself. I think Joel on another thread gave some interesting information on how to do that. Most importantly, don't make up a kilo batch and expect it to work perfectly. You may end up with strobe fuel that will only work in a good strobe pot and not a rocket. Start with 50 grm. batches or 100 grm. amounts and press up a rocket and see how it performs. I can pinch a little pyramid of the comp between my thumb and 2 fingers and let it dry for awhile and test burn it to see what I have. It's more difficult to do this with strobe comp that has been made with vasoline and lacquer thinner because it doesn't stick together like the old NC bound stuff did but I still try and gather a tiny blob together and test burn it with a match for ignition. Don't use a torch because that provides too much heat to test something so small. If it's going to burn, and you use a torch to ignight it, of course it will burn, but you will never see how much heat and flame that takes to begin that process, so use a stick match. I can tell right away what it will sound like in a strobe rocket, as far as the strobe frenquency goes. Intensity I cannot determine. But start with the basic fromula and work from there. You may need something finer



that -200 mesh added to the basic mix to get the frequency to increase. All I had at one time was -200 mesh so I ballmilled it to get a finer mesh and then blended this with the -200 mesh until I got what I wanted. But you have to start somewhere first. SLD

ned Posted 4/10/2010 7:02 PM (#105656 - in reply to #105612) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Steve brought up a good point in a different thread, which ought to be repeated in this strobe motor thread, and emphasized for newbies to all of this. We may get tempted to try different delay fuels above the strobe fuel in these motors, and there is indeed some creativity to be experimented with in that area. But, don't ever press a KNO3-containing fuel directly above the strobe fuel, especially if the motor is going to be stored for more than a few hours. KNO3 in contact with ammonium perchlorate for any amount of time will produce very hygroscopic ammonium nitrate, and will create a soggy layer between the two fuels. If you want to put a KNO3-charcoal delay on the top of these rockets, they must either be flown immediately, or better-yet, put a layer of whistle or color comp between those two fuels. Stronium nitrate and barium nitrate do not exhibit the problem with ammonium perchlorate to nearly the degree that potassium nitrate does. Just a heads-up. ned Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:04 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Dan Thames Posted 4/10/2010 7:43 PM (#105660 - in reply to #105540) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling


Location: Arkansas

For the strobe newbie: Some of my first strobes came back down to the ground. Part if it was too slow a strobe rate. Part if it was the lack of lift performance and the strobe column height over the spindle being a little much. Ned mentioned the 1/8 as the place to start and total delay could be governed with the strobe above the spindle (all true) . As I learned more from experience, the strobe height above the spindle was increased to give me more height before the burst. I was a little timid about increasing this height but found that with a really good flying rocket, you can increase this amount more than just a little bit. But you have to be careful or they will return to earth. Dan T.

ned Posted 4/11/2010 8:43 AM (#105685 - in reply to #105660) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these rockets. 4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted in the Increment Table. This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the spindle that fuel section comes in his motor. "This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using the Hybrid-Universal tooling. It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is closer to



1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry about this mistake. If you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of whistle, you will see that it only takes up about one third of the spindle. SLD" ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Joel Harmon Posted 4/12/2010 9:19 AM (#105790 - in reply to #105685) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling


I can second having to get rid of extra strobe mix that doesn't work well in rockets. I made up a kilo batch once that didn't work well and ended up using it in 5" bottom shots instead of using flash. I used a booster of 2 micron Mg and potassium perchlorate in a flash bag tied to the end of the fuse. I poured in the strobe mix so it was full and glued the bottom disk on. I spiked and pasted the bottom shot like normal and then made the shell out of it. The bottom shot definitely detonated, as there is no way that the five or so grams of Mg flash could have been that loud! It was at least as loud as flash, just a little more expensive. Also, as Steve L mentioned, I did notice that increasing the vaseline causes the frequency of the strobe rate to go up. So, slowly adding in very small amounts of vaseline would be a feasible way of increasing the strobe rate frequency of your rockets or pots. Joel

steve laduke Posted 4/12/2010 11:41 AM (#105822 - in reply to #105540) Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling


Joel: I haven't tried this method yet of increasing the strobe frequency, but I am. The best way to use up shitty strobe mix is in a gerb. I used up a whole coffee can full this way. What a waste, Joel. SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:46 AM



Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/10/2010 7:40 AM (#105592) Subject: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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A note from Steve in the main UT thread: "One other rocket that was not mentioned, Ned, is the whistle assisted-BP rocket. Here, you start out the same way as the other nozzless rockets are made. 4 increments of #2 hot whistle. Then finish the rocket to at least 1 inch above the spindle with your BP fuel. For the BP fuel to be used in these rockets, I would suggest a fuel, such as the #1 on the sheet. Or, probably a slower burning BP with a larger amount of coarse charcoal added into the mix to increase the charcoal tail. It doesn't really matter too much on how fast this BP burns, because the whistle fuel in this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick off the launch pad. Once the whistle fuel is burned up and gone, which takes about 1/2 second, what's left is the unburned core of the BP still burning. So if you can add some extra, coarse and intermediate size charcoal, this would really make a nice tail. This rocket will take a medium size payload. It is possible to add an extra increment of #2 whistle to give it a more powerful jump on takeoff, but 4 increments seems plenty already." Black Powder #1 Fuel 75 KNO3 15 airfloat charcoal 10 80-mesh charcoal 15 36-40-mesh charcoal 10 sulfur 5 dextrin +water/alcohol Steve's spec's for preparing this fuel are contained in the "Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's" thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11629&posts=23... "I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin." The Whistle Fuel is: Whistle Mix #2 76 potassium perchlorate 23 sodium salicylate 1 red iron oxide 2.5 vaseline lacquer thinner Steve's spec's for preparing this fuel are included in the "Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling" thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11640&posts=7&... Increment sizes are described here: http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf



It is important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing its do-not-pass line. Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. Here is a sketch of a Whistle-Assisted Black-Powder Motor made with the Universal Tooling. In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and also the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. 4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting this amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in. Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of the motors is dialed in. Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:44 AM



(whistle-assisted BP motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- whistle-assisted BP motor sketch.jpg (83KB - 0 downloads)




steve laduke Posted 4/10/2010 8:16 AM (#105599 - in reply to #105592) Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling


Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of the motors is dialed in From Ned's post Ned--- I don't know how that squeaked in but I never use BP above strobe mix without a tiny barrier of whistle inbetween it. And we are talking about a BP-whistle assist rocket here right now. No Strobe in these fuels. Just a brain fart, I suppose. Otherwise the concept is correct. 4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. From Ned's post Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you pressed one up and did measure it. In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce the whistle fuel, then finish the rocket with BP. SLD

ned Posted 4/10/2010 8:45 AM (#105601 - in reply to #105599) Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of the motors is dialed in From Ned's post Ned--- I don't know how that squeaked in but I never use BP above strobe mix without a tiny barrier of whistle inbetween it. And we are talking about a BP-whistle assist rocket here right now. No Strobe in these fuels. Just a brain fart, I suppose. Otherwise the concept is correct. 4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. From Ned's post Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you pressed one up and did measure it. In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce the whistle fuel, then finish the rocket with BP. SLD ___________________________________ OOps, I messed up on that first line, Steve. It should read "adjusting the amount of fuel above the WHISTLE fuel..." It's too late for me to edit that post, so this note will have to suffice in this thread. Thanks for the note about the height of the total amount of the Whistle fuel. This was something I was trying to nail down in all these motor threads where the whistle is used first. I base that 1/2-spindle-height approximation on an increment around the spindle pressing up to about 2/3 a tube ID tall. 4 of those pressed increments would be 8/3 tube ID tall, then, approximately, which is



2.67 Tube ID's. And you said your 3/4" spindle is 4.2 inches long, which is 5.6 Tube ID's. 2.67 divided by 5.6 is .47, or about 1/2 the spindle height. So that 1/2-spindle-height is based on your increment recommendations, and the notes to dial in the motor power by adjusting those first whistle increments take all that into account. If you could press 'Your' 4 increments in one of your typical motors, and then measure the total height of the increments, and express that as a fraction of the total spindle height, I think that would be really beneficial to rocket-builders using the Universal Tooling. Thanks, ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



If you could press 'Your' 4 increments in one of your typical motors, and then measure the total height of the increments, and express that as a fraction of the total spindle height, I think that would be really beneficial to rocket-builders using the Universal Tooling. Ned,----You really have me confused on trying to figure out how much whistle to use in a rocket comming at it from that angle. The way I say it, "4 increments" cannot be any simpler. And if a guy uses to large of an increment to start with and ends up with a rocket that will cato, I always say, " then use only 3 increments", this should solve his problem. But with the increment size that I posted previously, there should be no one using to large of an increment anymore. Some may find that 4 increments isn't enough. This I blame on the batch of whistle fuel on how it was made and what was used to wet it and also the purity of the perc that was used. I use strictly vasoline and lacquer thinner and anything else can affect the performance. SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/10/2010 9:05 AM

ned Posted 4/10/2010 9:04 AM (#105607 - in reply to #105606) Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Ned,----You really have me confused on trying to figure out how much whistle to use in a rocket comming at it from that angle. The way I say it, "4 increments" cannot be any simpler. SLD _______________________________ Steve,, You're a machinist. If I come to you and say, "Steve, please make a spindle for me. Use your little finger as an increment, and make the spindle that big in diameter, and two increments long" that would be pretty 'simple'. But, you are a machinist. You deal in precision. You'd say, "Hold on, ned.. My 'increment' little finger may be a little bigger or smaller than your 'increment' little



finger.. and how big around is your increment..?" (but I'd bet yours is bigger than mine...

You have frankly admitted that your increment sizes are pretty much measured by eyeball, and you only recently broke down and weighed a few of them. Your 'increments' are not a precise way to spec these amounts for the rest of us. We are 'rocket makers,,,machinists..' trying to follow your lead on using this tooling you've developed. So, all we are asking for is a little precision. The precise way to spec the amount of fuel in that first whistle fuel section, is to spec it by 'height on the spindle'. Then when I press my whistle fuel to that height,,and the motor needs a little more snort after testing it,,I can press the whistle X higher in the next motor. Or if the test motor CATO's, I'll press the next motor with whistle X lower in it.. So, as I TRY to work up these spec's for future users of the UT, I really am trying to nail down some useful, precise specifications which can easily be duplicated,,and adjusted. In my mind, in this case, "simple" and "precise" are not the same thing. We need some precision. ned Edited by ned 4/10/2010 9:09 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/10/2010 9:09 AM (#105608 - in reply to #105592) Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Yeah Steve, I know for a fact I've asked you questions and you've given me similar answers. Some of us just have to take things apart like that in order that they make

sense. It's a curse most times, but I really do think that for some of us it makes a more thorough understanding of what it is we are attempting to accomplish.

When I started I began by pressing even single gram increments to see how they "stacked up". Now, I do use shortcuts but I do so knowing that there are parts of my process where precision matters, and parts where it matters not as much. It's one thing to be told, another to have learned it.

Just my $0.02.


steve laduke Posted 4/10/2010 9:12 AM (#105609 - in reply to #105592) Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling


One other thing, Ned. If everyone doesn't use 9000 psi loading pressure like I do, this will throw off your height measurement. I know some guys won't use 9000 psi loading pressure on these rockets like I do. Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The



height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of the column. SLD

ned Posted 4/10/2010 9:18 AM (#105610 - in reply to #105609) Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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One other thing, Ned. If everyone doesn't use 9000 psi loading pressure like I do, this will throw off your height measurement. I know some guys won't use 9000 psi loading pressure on these rockets like I do. Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of the column. SLD __________________________ That's why I'm trying to 'pick your brain', Steve, and write specific guidelines based on what you've been teaching. You continually say, "Don't change something, and expect the same results." I've spec'd your 9000 psi loading pressure, unadjusted for increments around the spindle, in each motor spec thread. If someone changes something, which we'll all do as expermenting 'scientists' trying to reinvent wheels, then we're on our own as far as the results.. And, you and I know that even if we follow your spec's to a T, other variables can creep in like individual techniques, chemical quality, humidity,,,and the alignment of Mars with Uranus... so each of us has to develop a feel for all of this, and learn how to experiment and adjust accordingly. But, you're giving us a good head start with your groundbreaking R&D, and I'm just trying to clearly state where you think is a good place to start if we want to follow your lead. And, I think your last statement, "Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of the column" brings up a very interesting concept. Is the total weight of the fuel used what is critical to power and potential CATO's, or is it the total pressed height and the resulting exposed surface area inside the core of the motor? I personally lean toward exposed surface area, the total height, being the most critical aspect, followed by the density of the fuel (which is determined by the pressing force). So, in my practice, I focus on height/exposed-area more than I do 'weight' of the fuel. Also, Tube ID, which we know can vary a little, can vary the height a certain weight of fuel will press up to, so focusing on the height rather than the weight seems more precise from that angle, to me, too. ned Edited by ned 4/10/2010 9:31 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/10/2010 10:24 AM (#105619 - in reply to #105610) Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling


Is the total weight of the fuel used what is critical to power and potential CATO's, or is it the total pressed height and the resulting exposed surface area inside the core of the motor?



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Ned---- these two aspects are so closely tied together that one determines the other. If you add more increments, the height will of course be higher. So if you add more height to the column of fuel, that will definately bring you rocket closer to a cato. And I definately know that when a certain whistle fuel is pressed into a rocket using a lower loading pressure, it will cato every time. If that same rocket is pressed to double the amount of loading pressure, it will fly. I proved this during my mini whistle seminar that I did during one of the conventions. I pressed up a whistle rocket with a 1-3/8 in long spindle using 4500 psi loading pressure and it catoed every time. When I went to 8666 psi loading pressure, they flew perfectly every time. So what happened to that column of whistle when I increased the loading pressure to 9000 psi. I know it got shorter, but I didn't change the amount of fuel that was used. So in reality, you could say both of your statements are correct for the reasons of catoing. And for this reason, when someone tells me his strobe rockets are catoing, I ask him what loading pressure are you pressing them to? This has been the most critical cause of strobe rockets catoing as far as I've determined. Not using enough loading pressure on the fuel. So if you are pressing up a 3/4 inch strobe rocket and you measure out 24 grams of fuel for the whistle fuel in that rocket, and press each one of those 6 grams of fuel in each increment seperately, I don't care how much loading pressure you use. But if the rocket catos, I will tell you to increase the loading pressure. And with 24 grams of whistle, I know you have the same amount of whistle in your rocket that I use in mine. So in my mind, there is no easier way to determine the amount of whistle that should be used is by using the increment chart that you showed in an earlier post on increment size. So the height of all the increments pressed in will not equal the same from one persons rocket to the other if the same loading pressure is not kept constant. If we were sitting around a roundtable discussion, you could probably tell my voice getting louder right now. But, you're giving us a good head start with your groundbreaking R&D, and I'm just trying to clearly state where you think is a good place to start if we want to follow your lead. quote from Ned I really don't consider my work "ground breaking". All the rockets I've made so far with this tooling is far from the ground breaking stage at this point. There's nothing left to do to perfect them. They all fly great. SLD

Dan Thames Posted 4/10/2010 10:34 AM (#105622 - in reply to #105592) Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling


Location: Arkansas

When I first started making rockets I was not part of a club, nor did I have any mentor. Something I read or maybe it was on an AFN video, but the stress on using small increments was the one thing that would make or break the success of your rockets. One of my early rockets split open and you could see the increments pressed into the soft tube that I was using. The way the top part of the increment compressed more that the lower part of the increment really explained to me how important small increments are. I err on the side of making them too small. That may be one reason most of my rockets work and don't blow up. What I guess I am trying to say is that the exact amount of an increment is not very critical if it is on the small side anyway. When I make really hot motors, I tend to back off even more, just to be more careful about good fuel grain formation. Just my 2 cents. Dan T.


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Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you pressed one up and did measure it. In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce the whistle This was a big mistake on my part. The whistle fuel column that is pressed into the core of any of these nozzless rockets only takes up about 1/3 of the core, not 2/3rds. I will pos tthis on a seperate post in this thread. SLD

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/11/2010 8:31 AM (#105680 - in reply to #105622) Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Dan Thames - 4/10/2010 10:34 AM When I first started making rockets I was not part of a club, nor did I have any mentor. Something I read or maybe it was on an AFN video, but the stress on using small increments was the one thing that would make or break the success of your rockets. One of my early rockets split open and you could see the increments pressed into the soft tube that I was using. The way the top part of the increment compressed more that the lower part of the increment really explained to me how important small increments are.

Dan. last night I screwed up and taught Dan Bryan a lesson along those lines. The first increment on my first whistle of the season was too high, and my tube squashed down. I showed Dan how the tube was now shorter, and when we took the clamshell off you could feel the roughness on the outside of the tube. I didn't give it another thought till I was examining the video of the one and only failure last night: that rocket. The core part of the grain ruptured and left the delay portion intact and burning. Very clear where the mistake was made (videos being edited now).

Edited by Lee C. Bussy 4/11/2010 8:32 AM ----- Lee C. Bussy How to include pictures in posts: http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704



Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/9/2010 5:56 PM (#105544) Subject: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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A note from Steve in a different thread: "Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel." *Note, the amount of fuel above the spindle will be dependent on the size of the motor that is being made. Steve's notes are based on 3/4" ID motors. The total flight time of the motor is dialed in by adjusting this height of the colored fuel. And from his Universal Tooling handout: "For the colored-tailed rocket, press in three increments of #2 whistle mix, then press the color of your choice to about 1 inch above the spindle. Most colored fuels burn not too fast, so 1-inch above the spindle is a starting point. Vary the amount above the spindle to get the required delay. If the colored fuel burns real slow, just add an extra increment of whistle to the rocket before starting the colored fuel." It's important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line. Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. 4 increments of the Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting the amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in. http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf The whistle fuel formula is: Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel) .76 potassium perchlorate .23 sodium salicylate .01 red iron oxide .025 vaseline + lacquer thinner Steve's method of making this fuel is detailed in the "Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling" thread. This article details Dave Stoddard's methods for making colored rocket fuels: http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=83#roc... The following is a note from Danny Creagan about his method of making colored fuels and using them in motors made with the Universal tooling:



"re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles Steve's Universal spindle is a very nice compromise that lends itself to many more configurations than even Steve says. One that I was testing at Vinton on the 27th was quite successful. It was a MgAl colored tailed chuffer rocket pressed on a 'universal like' spindle. I was shooting both green and red. Since I shoot these all the time, I never thought about recording any of the launches. However, they were getting very respectable heights. Joel can confirm - we had a short discussion about how high they were going for such simple motors. This was the first time I had used a universal spindle with them so I didn't have any cool headers - just tested six to make sure they would work. A side effect of using the universal spindle is that it has a good taper so the darn MgAl, which grabs more narrow spindles, releases its death grip sooner. Here is the process: 1. Make red, green or yellow MgAl rocket fuel according to the Barr, Stoddard, Steinberg formulas. Here is my web page about them if you don't have your notes handy: http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/strontiumrockets.... 2. Using the universal spindle, make a 1 I.D. clay nozzle - I use oiled kitty litter. 3. Press one I.D. of 76/23/1 salicylate whistle mix (or 1.5 ID of benzoate mix). 4. Fill to the top of the spindle with the MgAl mix. 5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time - the MgAl is slow burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on them. 6. Add a nice clay bulkhead - at least 1 I.D. The whistle is necessary - the modest spindle doesn't have enough burn area to get the MgAl comps up to speed unless you augment the ignition. You could probably add a bit more whistle if you wanted a laser on takeoff (or added a larger header) but the idea behind the MgAl motors is to lift with medium velocity and chuff a bit on the way up. The above formula seemed to be about right - the motors were boosted right at first but they were no where near the red line. The mix chuffed a few times and the motor got its head of steam up and went for the clouds. Edit: Safety warning - MgAl mix is really a modified colored flash so be very careful. If you get a stuck spindle or ram - which is easy to do if you don't keep your tooling clean - cut the motor off before you haul down on the sucker to twist it off." Edited by ned 4/9/2010 6:22 PM



(color-tail motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- color-tail motor sketch.jpg (81KB - 0 downloads)




Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/9/2010 6:07 PM (#105545 - in reply to #105544) Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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ned - 4/9/2010 5:56 PM The whistle fuel formula is:

Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel) .76 potassium perchlorate .23 sodium salicylate .01 red gum .025 vaseline + lacquer thinner

Really?


ned Posted 4/9/2010 6:20 PM (#105549 - in reply to #105545) Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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ned - 4/9/2010 5:56 PM The whistle fuel formula is: Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel) .76 potassium perchlorate .23 sodium salicylate .01 red gum .025 vaseline + lacquer thinner Really? _______________________________ Wha??? I don't see that... Did you make that up??

Can you tell I'm typing/thinking fast, Lee..? (thanks for catching that.) nski Edited by ned 4/9/2010 6:21 PM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/9/2010 6:39 PM (#105553 - in reply to #105544) Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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I woulda called you and told you but my phone, she is dead!




Interestingly enough, Andy does use RG and ethanol to rice his fuel.


Dan Thames Posted 4/9/2010 7:51 PM (#105560 - in reply to #105544) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Location: Arkansas

Being left handed, it is normal for me to do things sort of backwards. Here is my version with the color on the bottom and the whistle on the upper part of the spindle....topped off with more red for delay. http://www.pyrobin.com/files/red-whistle1.wmv Dan T.

steve laduke Posted 4/10/2010 10:32 AM (#105621 - in reply to #105560) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling


Dan: that's a good way to see just how long it takes the core to burn up to the whistle fuel. There was an earlier thread where some guys were doing this also arsebackwards with those mixes. I tried it and got those same delayed on takeoff results. SLD

Dan Thames Posted 4/10/2010 10:42 AM (#105625 - in reply to #105544) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Location: Arkansas

Steve, I just did that once, to see what would happen. When I was a kid my dad would say, "What did you to THAT for?". My common response was, "I just wanted to see what would happen". Somehow, my dad just never really understood what that meant. To him it was just me messing up. He is 80 now. He sees my rockets and I think he is proud of me, in a way. I think he finially (with me in my 50s) understands that it was in my blood and too deep to beat out of me with a belt or a tree limb. Dan T.

ned Posted 4/10/2010 11:26 AM (#105628 - in reply to #105625) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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When I was a kid my dad would say, "What did you to THAT for?". My common response was, "I just wanted to see what would happen". Somehow, my dad just never really understood what that meant. To him it was just me messing up. He is 80 now. He sees my rockets and I think he is proud of me, in a way. I think he finially (with me in my 50s) understands that it was in my blood and too deep to beat out of me with a belt or a



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tree limb. ____________________ Gawd, that all sounds so familiar, Dan.. I'd get 'creative' when assembling a plastic model...and my engineer, West-Point-graduate-follow-the-damn-instructions,,,Dad (who I love and get along with very nicely now...) would get so frustrated with my 'sperimenting.. Just my nature,,,,and his... ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/11/2010 7:55 AM (#105676 - in reply to #105544) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling


Guys: If you've ever been to pgi convention at Wisconsin or Fargo and when the star spangled banner gets to the verse, "and the rockets red glare", the streaking upward of red tailed rockets were my version of colored tailed rockets, using my method of colored tailed rockets. Here, I only use a strobe rocket spindle with 3 increments of whistle and finish the rocket with the red mag mix that Dave Stoddard came up with. This mix used all magnesium and not magnalium for the metal content. No nozzle in this rocket. So making the colored tailed rocket, there is no need to use a nozzle. The whistle fuel in this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick on takeoff. And that's where the principal of the strobe rocket comes from also. Actually, the strobe rocket came first. SLD

ned Posted 4/11/2010 8:38 AM (#105683 - in reply to #105676) Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these rockets. 4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted in the Increment Table. This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the spindle that fuel section comes in his motor. "This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using the Hybrid-Universal tooling. It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is closer to 1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry about this mistake. If you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of whistle, you will see that it only takes up about one third of the spindle. SLD" ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/11/2010 8:55 AM (#105688) Subject: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is the thread dedicated to the discussion of Steve LaDuke's specifications for making the "Hybrid #1 Motor" with the Universal Rocket Tooling. Steve's note about making these motors: " Hybrid motor This motor has some latitude in how many increments of whistle mix you can use, but start with four increments first and don't forget your nozzle first. The first increments consist of: 76-----potassium perchlorate 23----- sodium salicylate 1----- iron oxide 10----- ballmilled charcoal------do this to the charcoal I've added as many as 7 increments of the whistle mix with the added charcoal before they would blow. Finish the rocket with a mix of 60---- potassium nitrate 30----- charcoal 10 sulfur and 5 parts dextrin. This fuel has to be riced with water and alcohol before it can be used, the same as the # 1 fuel. You can finish the rocket with this mix or you can press in a slower fuel such as willow mix also or a color fuel about 1" above the last increment of rocket fuel. These rockets go so high it won't hurt to have a long delay built into it. The best ending to have on there rockets it to use willow mix above the rocket fuel and use a pinch of titanium, atomized in each increment as it is pressed in to at least 3/4" above the spindle. This gives you the nice titanium tail that hangs in the air for a while. " ____________________________________ Steve, I'm assuming this Hybrid #1 Fuel has the same 2.5% vaseline added to it, plus lacquer thinner, and is prepared the same way that the Whistle Mix #2 is prepared in this thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11640&posts=8#... If you could verify that, it'd be great. And the BP rocket mix you spec, would be prepared the same way as you spec in the Black Powder Motor spec's: "I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin." It is important to note that the nozzle-clay increment must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line. Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here: http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf



Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. A Loading Force Table is here: http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20... In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor: Edited by ned 4/11/2010 9:24 AM



(A Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- A Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg (80KB - 0 downloads)




steve laduke Posted 4/11/2010 10:55 AM (#105713 - in reply to #105688) Subject: RE: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling


This booster fuel in this rocket uses 3 parts vasoline. It should read 76-23-1-3 with additional 10 parst ballmilled charcaol added altogether before ricing. Here, the increments added before switching to the 60-30-10-5 BP fuel may very, depending on the strength or purity of the perc used to make the whistle. I used the cheap Chinese perc to make all these rockets. If using a stronger perc, one may only be able to add 6 increments before changing over the the weaker BP of 60-30-10-5. Whatever you use for perc to make the up the #1 whistle fuel, and this is what I call this fuel, #1, because it was the first fuel I used to make these rockets with, the nice thing with these rockets, is it's easy to work up to the maximum number of #1 increments before they begin to cato. It's also a nice way to make a rocket that can be made very weak or vary powerfu, depending only on how many increments of #1 mix you use in the rocket before you change over to the BP formula. So it doesn't matter what type of perc you use in this booster. To start out with, Make up both fuels, to begin with. I would like to say at this point, one could use the # 1 formula that is printed on the hand out sheet that comes with the tooling and substitute this BP fromula in place of the 60-30-10-5 BP fuel. Since both fuels are approximately the same % in there makeup, they probably could be used in this part of the rocket anyway. But for this purpose right now, let's just say we will be using 60-30-10-5 BP made with airfloat charcoal. Start out with a nozzle in the rocket. Then press in 4 increments of the #1 whistle-charcoal fuel. Then switch over to the BP and finish the rocket to 1 " above the spindle. Your rocket is complete. I know this rocket will fly without a cato, Now, to tweak this rocket to it extreme power, keep adding 1 increment of whistle on each rocket until they begin to cato. This is the easiest way to find out the exact number of increments of whistle fuel that can be pressed without a cato. I have used 7 increments of the whistle before switchng over to the BP before they began to cato. With other types of perc available, you may be only able to add 6 increments before switching over to the BP. It's as simple as that. With H-U tooling, you can make this rocket to any power you want, up to the most powerful rocket that can be made for it's size. And here's where you can change the fuel that I use to make it. Instead of using the 60-30-10-5 BP that I use to make these, one can change the ratio of BP to anything he wants to use, actually. The faster the BP burns though, that means that you may not get as many increments of #1 booster fuel in also. I used a 65-25-10-5 BP above the booster with only 4 increments of the booster, and this rocket put out 49 lbs. of thrust with a 3/4 inch rocket. So one could probably use only 1 increment of booster, and finish the rocket will a BP made with a ratio of 70-20-10-5 BP. It's possible, but I've never done this. But this is how you can change the burn ratios with the BP that can be used. The most unique aspect of the rocket, you can power it up or down to your needs by just changing the number of increments of the booster fuel. And the tweaked rocket to give maximum thrust will be the total number of increments of booster that can be pressed in before they start to cato. Now, we have a second version of the Hybrid version using this tooling. Here, the BP version on the handout sheet is the BP that is used to make these rockets. 75-15-15-10-5. So far, me and another few guys have found that you can blend this BP with the #2 whistle fuel on the sheet, 76-23-1-2.5 or 3 parts vasoline, to a ratio of right around 25 % whistle and 75 parts of this BP and press this all the way to the top and finish the rockets with 1 increment above the spindle. Then decide what you want for the tail to finish this rocket off with. Here, use your imagination. This ratio of 25-75, whistle-BP will vary with each individuals differences in the way the whistle and BP is made up. So you have to tweak the fuels at this point and find out what works for you. And this is the only rocket where I use a clay plug above the last increment of fuel. On



most of my hybrid rockets that I made, I only use this extra plug when it's required, and can't add enough bulkhead fuel to keep it from blowing through on ignition. This is because that particular rocket needs a very short delay because it will be carrying a pretty hefty payload, and if I make that entire bulkhead out of burning fuel, the rocket will probably hit the ground before the heading even goes off. So to augment the bulkhead for protection of blowthrough, I may only want a 2-3 second delay before the heading is activated. This amount of fuel will only stick up above the last increment of fuel that was pressed in for the thrust portion of the rocket around 1/4-1/2 inch above the last increment. This is where you need more bulkhead in the rocket to keep it from blowing through so I add at least 3/4 inch of clay bulkhead above the last increment of fuel that was pressed in. Now I have to make a passfire through this clay plug, and this hole is pressed with whistle fuel with hand pressure only, using either the same drill that I used to make the hole with or something slightly smaller. Now, when securing the payload, which is usually a round ball shell or canister shell, the fuse in this shell is blackmatch going into the shell. This way there is no extra delay on the heading, once the rocket burns to this point. The whole delay, right down to the bottom of the passfire hole is less than 1/2 second before the heading is activated. I think why some people use a clay plug for the last increment in there rockets is because of the loading pressure that is used to make the rocket in the first place. I do know that in most of Ned's rockets, he uses a clay choke as the last increment. Most of his rocket are not pressed to 9000 psi either, and I can see why he would need one. This is good practice to use a clay choke when hand ramming or using light loading pressures, and where a short delay is required. There is no other way to keep that rocket blowing through and cotoing without that extra strength of the clay holding it back. Now with loading pressures around 9000 psi, a much shorter plug of fuel or clay will give the rocket all the plugging power it needs, so I hardly ever see the need to use one, especially on my high flying rockets. And of course, these rocket need a long plug of fuel to begin with to get all the time that I get before the heading activates. And I am aware on the larger rockets, such as the 4lb. and 6lb. versions, where only a short dealay is required, here you absolutely need a clay plug to hold in the thrust pressure that is exerted on the bulkhead. The only rocket that positively needs no bulkhead is in the Lowg winded screemer. To make a LWS motor, the finished bulkhead is at least 2 inches long to give it the life of the rockets name. Why would you need a clay bulkhead on a rocket that is only endburning anyway. There is hardly any thrust pushing on the foreward end of that rocket and you simply don't need one. That 2 inches of bulkhead is on a 3/4 inch rocket, by the way. And nobody can argue that point with me. If you put a clay bulkhead in a LWS rocket, with an already 1-1/2 to 2" bulkhead of fuel in it already, you are wasting your time. SLD

ned Posted 4/11/2010 11:05 AM (#105714 - in reply to #105713) Subject: RE: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Thanks for all the clarifications, Steve. I'm going to copy and paste your Hybrid #2 info into that thread. I would add that an additional reason I personally like to use a clay bulkhead, besides preventing fuel blowing through the top under pressure, is when a small flash section is used above the motor as a heading, to contain the flash really well when it goes off. If I'm filling the hollow end of a motor with flash, to create a report heading, and all the fuel has just about burned out when the flame hits the flash, and there's no clay bulkhead between those fuel fragments and the flash, the flash is not well contained on that bottom end. But, with a clay bulkhead, that flash is well contained except for the small passfire hole, and I like that containment. But, of course, to each their own. ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to



choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/11/2010 11:13 AM (#105716 - in reply to #105688) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling


Ned: I use the same method when testing rockets, just a 1/2 teaspoon of flash in the top of the rocket tube, without a clay bulkhead and they work good also. I think I said once before, we have to get you up to date on making good flash or better, anyway. You're not doing something right. SLD

ned Posted 4/11/2010 11:16 AM (#105718 - in reply to #105716) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Yeah,,,I'm just a "newbie" at all this, Steve... But maybe there's hope for me someday.. I might just catch on sometime...

nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/11/2010 11:18 AM (#105719 - in reply to #105688) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling


Ned: I would have put that smiley face on the post, but I don't know how. SLD

ned Posted 4/11/2010 11:29 AM (#105721 - in reply to #105719) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Just hit a "colon" or "semi-colon" followed by a "right parenthesis", Steve.

Or you can hit one of the emoticons on the left hand side of this post-commposition page... (but I know it's always good-natured between us... even when it starts to feel a little tense as the two 'bull-heads' square off..

Best, nski



(now that this project is 'done', I gotta go spread some topsoil and grass seed..) ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

VintageRacer Posted 4/12/2010 10:13 AM (#105806 - in reply to #105718) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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ned - 4/11/2010 11:16 AM Yeah,,,I'm just a "newbie" at all this, Steve... But maybe there's hope for me someday.. I might just catch on sometime...

nski

I see I need to put on my boots here.... it's gett'n kind of deep.

dapaki Posted 4/12/2010 10:51 AM (#105812 - in reply to #105688) Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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As they say, its easier to attract flies (SLD) with Strohs then vinegar.



Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/11/2010 9:25 AM (#105697) Subject: Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is the thread dedicated to the discussion of Steve LaDuke's specifications for making the Hybrid #2 Motor with the Universal Rocket Tooling. Steve's note about making these motors: "The hybrid fuel used for this rocket can be changed to what I call my hybrid #2 fuel. This is a blend of whistle mix and black pwd. to a ratio of 65-35 by weight with the 65 being whistle mix. The blk. pwd. ratio itself is the # 1 mix and the whistle mix is the # 2 mix. I'm not sure just how much of the blend can be used in the rocket, but so far, I've used it all the way up to about 1 inch from the top of the spindle and then finished the rocket with 60-30-10-2.5 blk. pwd. without a cato. I'm sure you can change the ratio to be able to use it all the way to the top and 1 increment above the spindle and then use something else for the delay above it. This is a fairly new twist to this fuel for this spindle and I haven't finished expermenting with it yet. This same fuel, # 2 hybrid works excellent in end burn rockets also. All the coarse charcoal gives the rocket a nice charcoal tail." ________________________________________ The Black Powder #1 Fuel mix is detailed in this thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11654&posts=12... The Whistle Mix #2 Fuel mix is also detailed in that thread. It is important to note that the nozzle-clay increment must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line. Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here: http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. A Loading Force Table is here: http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20... In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor:



(B Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- B Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg (76KB - 0 downloads)




ned Posted 4/11/2010 11:08 AM (#105715 - in reply to #105697) Subject: RE: Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is a further note of clarification from Steve about these Hybrid #2 Motors: "Now, we have a second version of the Hybrid version using this tooling. Here, the BP version on the handout sheet is the BP that is used to make these rockets. 75-15-15-10-5. So far, me and another few guys have found that you can blend this BP with the #2 whistle fuel on the sheet, 76-23-1-2.5 or 3 parts vasoline, to a ratio of right around 25 % whistle and 75 parts of this BP and press this all the way to the top and finish the rockets with 1 increment above the spindle. Then decide what you want for the tail to finish this rocket off with. Here, use your imagination. This ratio of 25-75, whistle-BP will vary with each individuals differences in the way the whistle and BP is made up. So you have to tweak the fuels at this point and find out what works for you. And this is the only rocket where I use a clay plug above the last increment of fuel. On most of my hybrid rockets that I made, I only use this extra plug when it's required, and can't add enough bulkhead fuel to keep it from blowing through on ignition. This is because that particular rocket needs a very short delay because it will be carrying a pretty hefty payload, and if I make that entire bulkhead out of burning fuel, the rocket will probably hit the ground before the heading even goes off. So to augment the bulkhead for protection of blowthrough, I may only want a 2-3 second delay before the heading is activated. This amount of fuel will only stick up above the last increment of fuel that was pressed in for the thrust portion of the rocket around 1/4-1/2 inch above the last increment. This is where you need more bulkhead in the rocket to keep it from blowing through so I add at least 3/4 inch of clay bulkhead above the last increment of fuel that was pressed in. Now I have to make a passfire through this clay plug, and this hole is pressed with whistle fuel with hand pressure only, using either the same drill that I used to make the hole with or something slightly smaller. Now, when securing the payload, which is usually a round ball shell or canister shell, the fuse in this shell is blackmatch going into the shell. This way there is no extra delay on the heading, once the rocket burns to this point. The whole delay, right down to the bottom of the passfire hole is less than 1/2 second before the heading is activated. " ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

ned Posted 4/11/2010 9:46 AM (#105699) Subject: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is the thread dedicated to making Nozzleless Motors per Steve LaDuke's specifications, using the Universal Rocket Tooling. This motor differes from the Hybrid #2 motor in that it does not use a clay nozzle, and the fuel mixtures are a bit different. Steve's note about this motor: "Nozzless rocket---- press the entire rocket with the #1 BP mixed with #2 whistle mix. A ratio of 50% whistle and 50% BP--- by weight. Press the entire rocket with one increment above the spindle with this mix, then change to a different fuel. This fuel can be a colored mix, maybe just more straight whistle to give a whistling effect, maybe some willow tailed fuel, anything your imagination can muster. Just be careful of how far you go above the spindle because your rocket will be coasting at this point. Consideration of the heading is important. The heavier the payload, less altitude. " _____________________________________ The #1 BP fuel, and the #2 Whistle Mix are detailed in this thread: http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11654&posts=12... The power of this motor can be dialed in by varying the proportions of the two fuels that are mixed together to create the thrust fuel. It is important to note that the first fuel increment must be large enough to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line. Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here: http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force decreased on the increments around the spindle. A Loading Force Table is here: http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20... In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tube-support, too. Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor: Edited by ned 4/11/2010 9:54 AM



(Nozzleless Motor sketch.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Nozzleless Motor sketch.jpg (75KB - 0 downloads)




ned Posted 4/11/2010 9:58 AM (#105702 - in reply to #105699) Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

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This is a response from Danny Creagan when I asked him if he'd ever tried an "All BP-Fuel Nozzless Motor" using the Universal Tooling: "It works but it is a bit mild. Its main use to me is to have a short impulse motor with almost certain reliability. Darned easy to do. Just get the hottest BP mill dust you can make, add 2% oil to keep down the dust, press to a few thousand pounds on the UT spindle (I usually press to 4K but you can get away with much less). Keep the increments to less than 1 I.D. Add 1.5 I.D. delay using the same fuel as you pressed around the spindle. Dust lightly with Ti sprinkles between increments after you clear the spindle. For a 3/4 motor keep the header light - festival ball shells are good. Heavier loads will need shorter delays and bulkheads. I might add that, given a reliable pressing, I don't think you can CATO the motor with just straight BP. I've augmented the BP with more than 30% hot whistle - mixed in - and it still flew. You can light it at the top of the core for a quicker get away. The motors store well, travel well, and turn into a six pack and a roast beef sandwich at midnight. I made my camera lifter with a UT spindle on a 6 pound motor. Hot BP. It lifted the camera, housing and parachute to about 800-1000 feet. The delay was short on purpose so it would have puffed it up had I added more delay. Dan" __________________________________ This presents another option to try when making nozzleless motors using the Universal Tooling. ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/12/2010 10:05 AM (#105803 - in reply to #105702) Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling


Darned easy to do. Just get the hottest BP mill dust you can make, add 2% oil to keep down the dust, press to a few thousand pounds on the UT spindle From Danny C. Danny, why make up a batch of fast burning BP, then slow it down with adding in oil? It certainly won't be the fastest burning BP with oil in it anymore. To make the fastest BP you can make, just rice it with water with 10% alcohol. And this explains why these rockets work with just 4000 or less psi loading pressure. It's a weaker BP with oil in it. Using the water-alcohol technique will give you faster burning BP in my opinion, and then better performance also. SLD

ned Posted 4/12/2010 10:10 AM (#105805 - in reply to #105803) Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Steve, if I wanted to make the fastest/hottest granulated BP I could, I'd use good/hot charcoal, mill the heck out of the fuel, and then granulate it using only denatured



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alchohol and no binder (ideally it'd be pressed without granulation,,but it'd be mighty messy trying that). IMO, adding any water during granulation starts to recrystalize the KNO3, defeating some of what was accomplished during the milling operation. It would be an interesting exercise to see what's the best nozzleless motor we can each make using the Universal Tooling and BP-only fuel,,no whistle fuel..or other higher-powered fuels. We'd need a fast-response load-cell test-stand and some computer software, similar to the computer-test-stands Lloyd, Tony, and some others are using. ned Edited by ned 4/12/2010 10:11 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/12/2010 10:18 AM (#105807 - in reply to #105699) Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling


Ned: I agree with you on the fastest burning BP. Only, this is the way I make it burn the fastest that I can. It would be a true way to test concisively which of the two binding methods would work best. I elect Gary Sweat to conduct those tests with his setup that he uses. And on a note, water is cheaper that alcohol and red gum. SLD

ned Posted 4/12/2010 11:39 AM (#105820 - in reply to #105807) Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

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I think another important point to the inclusion of the wax that Dan uses,,or the oil that,,,,Dan uses,,,Steve, is the binding power of that phlegmatizer. In these BP-fueled, nozzleless motors, there's probably something to be said for an ingredient like the wax or oil, which will hold the fuel grain together pretty solidly. Standard BP fuel, even pressed under high pressures, does not produce a super-solid grain. It can be crumbled between the fingers, and may not work the best in a nozzleless, without the wax or oil.. I would guess that the vaseline in your whistle fuel, when it's mixed with the BP fuel in your Hybrid fuel, sort of integrates throughout the whole fuel grain under high pressure, and accomplishes what the wax or oil is accomplishing in the Dans' fuels. nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/12/2010 11:58 AM (#105823 - in reply to #105820) Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling


Standard BP fuel, even pressed under high pressures, does not produce a super-solid grain. It can be crumbled between the fingers, and may not work the best in a nozzleless, without the wax or oil.. Ned: I almost spilled my coffee when I read this statement. Just let me say this. Cut open an Estes rocket motor and examine the grain of fuel found inside. You need a hammer to



shatter it. With ourtype of BP that is used for fuel, it may not look the same as the Estes fuel, but I dare say that the grain is quite solid. Did you ever press up a comet using dry fuel in a solid sleeve that can handle 10,000 psi loading pressure? It may suprise you. If I make up a nozzless BP motor, I'm surely going to use 9000 psi loading pressure on it also without any oil in the mix and get a slight edge over one that has oil. But then again, you never use 9000 psi loading pressure on your rockets either. Your grain will be slightly softer than mine. SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 12:01 PM

ned Posted 4/12/2010 12:05 PM (#105824 - in reply to #105823) Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling

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Did you ever press up a comet using dry fuel in a solid sleeve that can handle 10,000 psi loading pressure? It may suprise you. _______________________________ Just the other day, Steve, I pressed up some of the granulated BP-Motor fuel, using your formula and granulated/dried, in a 1" comet pump, under 9000 psi on the composition. I wanted to see how much pressure it took to get it pressed until it was 'dead'... (that occurred at about 7500 psi on the comp.) It did press into a solid-looking comet/grain, but I was surprised at how easily it crumbled between my fingers. I don't doubt that a real, granulated BP like Goex will press into a nice hard grain, as in the Estes motors.. I just have my doubts about being able to duplicate that with our BP fuels, since they've not been pucked and corned. We might get a dry-pressed fuel grain which might hold up under gentle handling, though. I'm just hypothesizing that one of the motivations for the wax/oil usage by the Dans, is the nice, solid fuel grain that is produced using those phlegmatizers. nski ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/11/2010 7:27 PM (#105763) Subject: Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads

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Ned asked me to format these as tables and post them, here they are:


Force Needed to Achieve Loading Pressures on Composition Tube Size / Force

7500 psi 5625 psi 9000 psi 6750 psi

1/2" 1500 1100 1750 1300

5/8" 2300 1700 2750 2050

3/4" 3300 2500 3950 2950

7/8" 4500 3400 5400 4050

1" 5900 4400 7050 5300

1-1/4" 9200 6900 11050 8300

1-1/2" 13250 9950 15900 11950

Column 2 is 7500 psi on the composition Column 3 is 75% of that pressure for reduced psi around spindle Column 4 is 9000 psi on the composition Column 5 is 75% of that pressure for reduced psi around spindle Forces listed in table indicate number of pounds of force required to create specific pressure on

composition. This force is what a PtoF gauge would read. Some numbers have been rounded off for convenience.

Increment Sizing

Tube Size / Increment

Increment Volume in3

Whistle/Strobe Increment Weight

Whistle/Strobe Increment Volume

BP Increment Weight

BP Increment Volume

1/2" .07 2g / .05 oz Heaping 1/4 tsp 1.5g / .05 oz Flat 1/2 tsp

5/8" .13 4g / .15 oz Heaping 1/2 tsp 3g / .1 ozHeaping 1/2 tsp

3/4" .22 7g / .25 oz Heaping tsp 5g / .2 oz Round tsp

7/8" .35 11g / .4 oz Heaping 1/2 Tbsp 8g / .3 ozHeaping 1/2 Tbsp

1" .53 17g / .6 oz Heaping Tbsp 13g / .45 oz Heaping Tbsp

1-1/4" 1.03 32g / 1.1 oz Heaping 1/8 c 24g / .85 oz Heaping 1/8 c

1-1/2" 1.77 56g / 2 oz Round 1/4 c 42g / 1.5 oz Flat 1/3 c

Approximate starting values Based on pressed increments = 2/3 Tube ID tall around spindle, ½ Tube ID tall above spindle Based on pressed fuel densities:

Whistle/Strobe = 30 grams/cubic inch BP fuel = 22 grams/cubic inch

Lee C. Bussy Posted 4/12/2010 9:16 AM (#105789 - in reply to #105763)



Subject: RE: Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads

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Information transcribed by Ned from Steve LaDuke re: Increment Sizes:


Increment Size Info from Steve LaDuke

Tube Size / Increment

Whistle Increment Weight

Whistle Increment Size

BP Increment Weight

1/2" 3.5g / .12 oz Heaping 1/4 tsp 2.5g / .09 oz

5/8" 4.5g / .16 ozSlightly Rounded 1/2 tsp

3/4" 6.5g / .23 oz Slightly Rounded tsp 4g / .14 oz

7/8" 8.5g / .3 oz Special Spoon

1" 10.5g / .37 oz Heaping Special Spoon



Universal Tooling Rocket Motors, advantages and capabilities

ned Posted 4/11/2010 10:11 AM (#105704) Subject: Universal Tooling Rocket Motors, advantages and capabilities

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So, as we peruse the complete list of motors which can be made with the Universal Tooling, what are the unique features of each type of motor? Traditional-type BP motors (not the heaviest lifters, but I love the traditional Whoosh of the motor ascending, along with the nice, graceful spark trail) Whistle Motors, Long-Winded Screamers (nothing quite like a whistle motor taking off, rapid ascent, long-arching whistle, unique effect, good lifting power available.) Strobe Motor (Man, I love strobers. They hop into the air with the whistle boost,,then the loud popping and bright flashing as they fly,,hard to not pay attention to.) Whistle Assisted BP motors (increased lifting capability, but with a traditional BP spark trail) Colored Tailed Motors (After the impressive whistle-boosted ascent, a bright red or green flare arching across the sky is very cool..) Hybrid #1 Motors Hybrid #2 Motors Nozzleless Motors Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:19 AM ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl



Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel

ned Posted 4/11/2010 10:23 AM (#105708) Subject: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel

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Steve mentions in his notes that the Hybrid #2 fuel can be used in his high-powered, long-flight version of the endburner motor. While this is not made with the Universal Tooling, but with endburner tooling instead, it might make sense to get some details on this motor. Then, with the Universal Tooling, and with endburner tooling, just about every type of motor can be made. Steve, this endburner version would seem pretty simple. Are you using the same 65/35 fuel mix ratio that is spec'd in the Hybrid #2 tutorial? What ratio of nozzle aperture to motor ID are you using? Thanks, ned ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/11/2010 11:52 AM (#105725 - in reply to #105708) Subject: RE: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel


Hybrid fuel for endburners: 60-% whistle----76-23-1-2.5 40% BP. 75-15-15-10-5---- 1 of the 15's of charcoal is ballmilled for 12 hours This is by weight. Blend this together and press your rockets. Leave enough space in the tube to add a delay section using a delay formula, which can be anything that doesn't burn very fast. The ratio of nozzle opening is around 1/5th. the diamater of the tube. This is what I use on all the endburners I make. 1-1/2" diamater----.342 1-1/4" " ----.250 1" -----------------.220 7/8"----------------.170 3/4"----------------.160 5/8" ---------------.125 1/2" ---------------.100 SLD



ned Posted 4/11/2010 12:08 PM (#105727 - in reply to #105725) Subject: RE: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel

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That's great, Steve. Are these the motors of yours which just seem to keep flying,,higher and higher,,,forever? How much payload can they carry? n ----- "Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." Viktor Frankl

steve laduke Posted 4/12/2010 9:26 AM (#105794 - in reply to #105708) Subject: Re: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel


Due to restrictions on time yesterday, I will elaborate a little more on endburn rockets. The endburn rocket is probably my favorite to make because you don't need an 8" or a 6" long tube to start with. I've made them using the remains of an end of a tube that normally would be tossed. A 1-1/2 inch long tube is all that is needed to make one of these rockets. Not much fuel either. And it is my favorite to make because I can make one up so quickly, just to satisfy my pyro fix for the moment. At the convention last year, That's all I had. 25 endburners. The motors were 4-1/2 inches long, 3/4" diamater. They were pressed up with #2 hybrid fuel, using 9000 psi loading pressure with at least 1 inch of willow formula pressed above the hybrid fuel. I had some 400 mesh, atomized aluminum added to the fuel that gave a nice, long, and somewhat brighter tail than what you would get with just straight willow fuel. And few motors had Chysantumim of Mystery delay with atomized ti added which really gives a nice bright, long tail. And the endburn rocket is the only rocket that can change it's tail while it's asscending. Here, and what I call a "Stop", you press in a very short increment of a colored tail or a different formulation of BP that actually makes the rocket sound like it stoped burning, because the thrust of this fuel is mimimal during it's burn. And you can add as many a five of these stops, as long as the rocket is made long enough to accomodate them. Arocket that is around 6 inches long can easily accomodate 4 of these "stops", and you could squeeze in one more. This short increment only takes up about 1/16 of an inch in the rocket and slightly more, depending on how fast the fuel that you are using to make it. Once the thrust fuel reaches this "stop", the rocket starts to coast, and before it leans over to far and slows own to much, fire reaches the thrust fuel again, and begins to accelerate once again. In each stop, one could use a different color to achieve an interesting effect as the rocket speeds upward. If one uses to much of this stop in each increment, the rocket will slow down too much and lean over to far, and when the thrust fuel finally begins to burn again, you will have a horizontal flying rocket. It's important to press at least 3 increment of thrust fuel before you



begin to add any stops to the rocket. You want the rocket to get going pretty fast before it hits one of these stops, because thrust stops and the rocket begins to coast. If the rocket isn't going pretty fast already, it will lean over very quickly. So it's important to use a good, very energetic fuel to start out with, using the # 2 hybrid fuel. The 60-40, whistle-BP mix would be the starting point. If the rocket catos, you are not using enough loading pressure, remember, 9000 psi LP on these rockets, or, the fuel is simply to hot. But I have never had this happen, even when the perc I was using was Swedish perc to make the whistle fuel. I have yet not had a rocket burn through the side wall of the tube, even with rockets 8 inches long. This can only be accompolished using New England tubes. An endburn rocket does not need a thick wall tube. A 1/8" thick wall works best, in my opinion. I have 3/4 " and 7/8" thin wall tubes and these work very well for me. Payload on these rockets is rather small as compared to a core burner rocket. I have lifted some medium load sizes, but a heavy payload is not reccomended. For those of you that are so inclined to guess how much a 7/8 ID endburn rocket can lift, the peak thrust that was measured on a test device made be a very competent electrical engineer and now a machinest-tool maker, we tested a 7/8 inch ID rocket that had 1 stop pressed into the rocket, it measured 8.2 lbs. on the first thrust increments for 1.5econds,then the stop, which thrust dropped to 0, and then on the second thrust increments, the thrust went to 12.5 lbs and dropped to 10.4 lbs. after one second, and that finished the burn time on the rocket. I think the reason for the higher thrust on the second increments after the stop, the opening on the nozzle slightly coated shut with the burn from the stop. Once the #2 hybrid fuel started up again, this smaller opening created more pressure inside the chamber, and once it burned for a few 10ths, of a second, that coating eroded off before all the fuel was consumed. In that one second of burn time, the thrust only dropped to 10.4 lbs., which was still higher than the first peak thrust of the first increments of 8.2 lbs. One other note, these motors make very good drivers for gerendolas. But I would suggest using no more that 10% whistle added to the BP if you are going to make them cantaining any whistle at all. At the Gillett convention, I had a Gerry that totaly flew apart where I had very securely mounted 4 of these fully cranked up motors. If you do use a fully cranked up driver, then make sure the frame is doubly strong to prevent this from happening, and once you are finished, brace the frame again. I had one driver come off that frame that flew horizontally from the outfield where it was launced, directly over the crowd, and just before it hit the building behind the grandstands, it activated it's heading. Pretty scairy. SLD Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 9:47 AM



universal rocket tooling, motor specifications, thread … laduke's hybrid-universal rocket...

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