vampire-l faq version 5.1

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VAMPIRE-L FAQ Version 5.1

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DISCLAIMERs

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Disclaimer:

Storyteller, World of Darkness, Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the

Apocalypse, Mage: the Ascension, Wraith: the Oblivion, and a multitude of

other terms herein are all trademarks and copyrights of White Wolf. Their

inclusion is not a challenge to the trademarks or copyrights held.

This FAQ answers the more commonly asked questions that occur in the Vampire-

[email protected] list. It is not an introduction to the White Wolf games,

and assumes the reader has played, or owns at least one or two of the gaming

books.

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Preface: the Writer's rant

When I first started this FAQ, I though the hardest part would be defending my

answers. I was wrong. Almost no one had problems with my answers. (I had

problems with my answers, but that is another story).

The real problem was keeping the answers short but useful. It was not an easy

thing to do. I kept wanting to re-write the answers until they grew into full

FAQ V. 5.1 http://web.archive.org/web/20020225170458/http://machno.hbi-s

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essays. Answers ranged from the painfully blunt to the sickingly poetic. (My

desire to be plainly understood, battling with my desire to write

beautifully).

Just as I was finishing version 4 of the FAQ, the "Vampire Storytellers

Handbook" was released. I loved this new book, it had it own FAQ. Many of

the questions for which I had to do "guess work", they gave answers. Where I

had to limit my answers for space considerations, they used whole chapters.

Then came The Erciyes Fragments, which revealed even more.

As a result, Version 4 has been scrapped.

Finally, I writing the FAQ on an Apple Powerbook 190. The FAQ is written using

Corel's Word Perfect 3.5e, and formatted to be printed using the 10 point

Courier font. However, when uploading to the net, it is translated into a

standard ASCII text file. I don't bother with HTML or other formats as I'm

trying to maximize the readability across various computer platforms.

Now, onward with the corruption of today's youth...

Table of contents:

Section 1: General Questions

1.0) Why a FAQ?

1.1) What is the Vampire-L mailing list?

1.2) I found this FAQ on a WEB site. How do I Subscribe to

the Vampire mailing list?

1.3) How do I Un-subscribe from the Vampire mailing list?

1.4) Why don't I see my own messages?


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1.5) Are there any other WOD mailing lists?

1.6) What are the Golden Rules for Vampire-L?

1.7) Why the Shorthand?

1.8) How do I use the archives?

1.9) What is considered inappropriate SPAM on Vampire-L?

---

Section 2: Clans & Bloodlines - Who is what?

2.0) What is the difference between a Bloodline and a Clan?

2.1) What of the "Clan" status of Bloodlines who no longer

have an Antediluvian?

2.2) What is a "sub-clan"?

2.3) What of the Antitribu? Are they separate Bloodlines?

2.4) How small can a Bloodline be, and still be a Bloodline?

2.5) Who are the Dark Ages Clans, where can they be found,

and their Disciplines?

2.6) What of the Dark Age Bloodlines?

2.7) Who are the Modern Clans, where they can be found, and

what are their Disciplines?

2.8) Who are the lesser Bloodlines of the Modern Age, where

they can be found, and what are their Disciplines?

---

Section 3: Bloodlines - The Mutation.

3.0) When did new Bloodlines first start forming?

3.1) What is the origin of the Baali???

3.2) Who are these True Brujah guys?

3.3) What of the Old Clan Tzimisce?

3.4) What happened to the Cappadocians?

3.5) If the Giovanni are 'Childer of Cappadocius' -- why are

their Disciplines & Weakness different?


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3.6) Why do the Toreador Antitribu have a different Clan weakness

from their Clan counterparts?

3.7) Why does the Salubri weakness keep changing?

---

Section 4: Bloodlines - The Created.

4.0) What makes "Created Bloodlines" different from the other

offshoot Bloodlines?

4.1) Can you tell me where to find the Created Bloodlines?

4.2) What happened to the Created Bloodlines?

4.3) Why did Whitewolf design Gargoyles as vampires, and not

make them mystical creatures?

4.4) Can other vampires learn the Gargoyle's Flight Discipline?

---

Section 5: The Clanless - Caitiff, Thin-Bloods and others.

5.0) What are Caitiff?

5.1) How do Caitiff discover what their Disciplines are?

5.2) I thought Caitiff could create Disciplines?

5.3) Aren't all Caitiff supposed to be thin-blooded?

5.4) What about extremely high generation vampires?

5.5) The Thin-blooded can create Disciplines?

5.6) Who are the Clanless?

---

Section 6: Questions about the Ancient Vampires

6.0) Is Caine 1st or 0th generation?


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6.1) What are the Second Generation?

6.2) Who else is "claimed" as Second Generation?

6.3) What happened to the 2nd Generation?

6.4) Why all the confusion about some Clans having a 2nd generation

progenitor, or a progenitor claimed as a 4th by another Clan?

6.5) If TEF is true, why did the generations start

"degrading" in power?

---

Section 7: Origins - Not of Caine

7.0) Don't all vampires have to be descended from Caine?

7.1) Some Clans really claim a different origin than Caine?

7.2) What do the Setites claim as their origins?

7.3) What do the Ravnos & Gangrel say about their origin?

---

Section 8: Antediluvians - Who is Who

8.0) What is an Antediluvian?

8.1) How many Antediluvians are there?

8.2) Which Antediluvians are still alive?

8.3) OK, what were the generations of Osiris and Set?

8.4) Who were some of the other possible Antediluvians?

8.5) What about the Crone?

8.6) How old are the Antediluvians?

8.7) Who are the four Antediluvians hidden in the Shadowlands'

image of Nod?

---

Section 9: Background - Sources & Lore


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9.0) What is the Book of Nod and who wrote it?

9.1) What other books of lore or legend are there?

9.2) Are the Clan Novels (or any WhiteWolf novels) canon?

9.3) What is this "Ars Magica" storyteller game that keeps

popping up when the Tremere are discussed?

9.4) Are there any non-Whitewolf supplements for the WOD?

9.5) Where did White Wolf get the Clan/Bloodline names from?

---

Section 10: Background - Cults & Sects

10.0) Who are the Tal'mahe'Ra? What is their "angle"?

10.1) Isn't the Black Hand another name for the Sabbat?

10.2) What are the "Followers of Osiris"?

10.3) What can you tell me about the Iconnu???

10.4) Are any of these Sects related?

10.5) Are there any other Sects or Cults?

---

Section 11: History & Revisions of the WOD

11.0) Who were the Bushi and Gaki?

11.1) I just read "Chaos Factor", I thought Ennoia was the

Gangrel Antediluvian, and who is Ashur?

11.2) Does a vampire in torpor spend blood or not?

11.3) Is it me, or do some of the Clans of the Dark Ages have

different Disciplines and weaknesses?

11.4) What are some of the changes in the "Revised Edition"?

11.5) Which Clan does Rasputin belong to?

11.6) How many Kindred are there now?


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---

Section 12: Other Supernatural beings

12.0) What of the other supernatural critters of the WOD?

12.1) What about WOD:Gypsies?

12.2) What happens if a vampire embraces another Supernatural?

12.3) What is an Abomination?

12.4) Can the "other" were-critters become Abominations?

12.5) Which Bloodlines have/had some link to the other

supernaturals?

12.6) Why are the Ravnos and Gangrel at odds?

12.7) Vampires verses werewolves, who would win?

---

Section 13: Disciplines - Quirks & Limits

13.0) Which Disciplines can a vampire use while staked?

13.1) Can my Giovanni use Necromancy to summon a wraith

who has no fetters?

13.2) Will a vampire using Obfuscate be seen in a TV screen?

13.3) Does Obfuscate have a range?

13.4) Does the Fairyland power really allow Malkavians go to Arcadia?

13.5) Can you use Animalism to talk to a werewolf in Crinos?

13.6) Does any of Animalism's powers affect werewolves?

13.7) Can a Gangrel pass for a werewolf?

---

Section 14: Disciplines - Alternative Powers and Rules


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14.0) Just how weird does the Discipline of Valeran get?

14.1) Incompatible Disciplines?

14.2) Disciplines can now have multiple Paths & alternate Powers?

14.3) What are some of the alternate versions of Discipline powers?

14.4) Who can learn the these alternate powers?

14.5) "Character driven" alternative powers?

---

Section 15: Disciplines - their Creation and other Unique Powers

15.0) Where can rules be found for creating new Disciplines?

15.1) What are Unique Powers, and Combination Disciplines?

15.2) How do I create new Combination Disciplines?

15.3) What are some of the Combination Disciplines?

---

Section 16: Bonds of Blood

16.0) Can you blood bind someone whom you are blood bound to?

16.1) Can you blood bind your sire, or more remote progenitors?

16.2) Can a vampire be blood bonded to more than one vampire?

16.3) How much blood is required to create a blood bond?

16.4) What about tasting vampire blood?

16.5) While under a full blood bonded, is a vampire safe from

additional blood-bindings?

16.6) How does the Sabbat's vaulderie differ from a mutual blood bond?

16.7) How many ways are there to break a blood-bond?

16.8) How can the Vinculum be broken, or does it just fade?

---


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Section 17: Ghouls - Care and Feeding

17.0) How much vitae can my ghoul hold?

17.1) What about ghouls who drink "concentrated" Elder blood?

17.2) OK, How do I feed my Ghoul?

17.3) What happens if I overfeed my ghoul?

17.4) How many blood points does a ghoul lose per day?

---

Section 18: Ghouls - Problems of being unNatural.

18.0) What about side effects of ghouling?

18.1) What happens to my ghoul, if I forget to feed it my vitae?

18.2) I ghouled and blood bonded the mayor. Can he break the bond?

18.3) Might a powerful Ghoul be able to diablerize a vampire?

18.4) What is the difference mortal becoming a vampire, and a ghoul

trying the same?

18.5) Can a vampire become blood bonded by drinking from another's

ghoul?

---

Section 19: Other vampire Minions of the WOD

19.0) Do Zombies exist in the WOD? What are they like?

19.1) Who creates and uses Zombies?

19.2) What are those Revenant things?

19.3) Who are the "Ghoul Families", and what happened to them?

19.4) What were the Disciplines of the Ghoul Families?

Where can I find them?

19.5) What about Dhampirs?


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---

Section 20: Damage - Supernaturals Soaking & Healing in the WOD

20.0) What *IS* aggravated damage?

20.1) Why do supernatural take aggravated damage?

20.2) What is Soaking Damage?

20.3) If a weapon that causes non-aggravated damage, severs a

limb, would the damage then be considered aggravated?

20.4) Will a missing arm grow back on its own?

20.5) Will the bullets shot into a vampire get expelled from

her body during the day?

20.6) If a vampire's arm was ripped off ... Will the arm grow

back with the tattoo?

20.7) What if the vampire got the tattoo after his embrace,

or a nose ring?

20.8) What if said vampire were to dye or bleach her hair?

---

Section 21: Damage - Mortal & Ghouls

21.0) Can mortals Soak?

21.1) What is the difference between the two types of damage?

21.2) What about aggravated damage? Do mortals take aggravated

damage?

21.3) Can Ghouls regrow Limbs?

---

Section 22: Vicissitude

22.0) What the Hell is Vicissitude?

22.1) But anyone can get Vicissitude, doesn't that make it more


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than a vampire Discipline?

22.2) What are Souleaters?

22.3) What about the disease option?

22.4) Can a vampire heal Vicissitude damage?

---

Section 23: Vampires and Blood Magic

23.0) What is the difference between Blood Magic and Disciplines?

23.1) Did the Tremere really invent Thaumaturgy?

23.2) What is the difference between Dark Thaumaturgy and the

Tremere's Hermetic Thaumaturgy?

23.3) What other vampires have Blood magic?

23.4) What is basic Countermagic? And can vampires use it?

23.5) What about the Tremere's Thaumaturgical Countermagic?

23.6) Is Thaumaturgical Countermagic a Path or Discipline?

---

Section 24: Mortals and Blood Magic

24.0) What are "Mystic Disciplines"?

24.1) Can mortals learn Blood magic?

24.2) What happens to Hedge Magicians when they are embraced?

---

Section 25: Try Explaining This...

25.0) How was Haqim made immortal "by his own hand"?

25.1) How can Haqim be 2nd? What's the real story?

25.2) Are there any other groups who use an alternate lineage?


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25.3) Where did White Wolf get their inspiration for the clans?

---

Section 26: Crossover Rulings

26.0) Why aren't there crossover rules in VTM?!?

26.1) Why not a book of Crossover rules?

26.2) Wait a minute! Doesn't Whitewolf have a folder hidden somewhere

that explains how all the games interlock into one "Whole"???

---

Section 27: Dragging Werewolf Cosmology into Vampire

27.0) Wolf boy says my vampire character smells wormy!

27.1) We are doing a crossover using Garou, what can the

Vampires do about their Wyrm taint?

27.2) Wait! Why can a "Garou" kill humans and be doing good,

while a vampire who acts the exact same way is "Wyrm Tainted"?

27.3) OK, which Paths of Enlightenment cure vampires of the Wyrm?

27.4) Should my vampire know that Silver hurts werewolves?

27.5) Is there a good reason why a vampire shouldn't be loaded

down with silver weapons?

---

Section 28: Game Play - Character Creation

28.0) How many Dots in Disciplines should Elder characters have?

28.1) I'm having trouble playing Malkavians?

28.2) Does Protean 4 have to be bat & wolf forms?


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---

Section 29: game Play - Questioning the 'Rules'

29.0) Why should Infrared cameras notice a Vampire? ...

29.1) If a pregnant woman gets Embraced, what happens to the baby?

29.2) Is it theoretically possible to diablerize one's Sire in the

process of the Embrace?

29.3) Are you sure a vampire can only drop one generation at a time

through Diablerie? No matter how old the victim?

29.4) Can you store vampire blood for later use?

29.5) If it is so easy to store blood for later use, why did ...

29.6) Can a mortal can be 'embraced' by another mortal using just a

scalpel and a vial of Vampire blood?

---

Section 30: Cosmology - Umbra and the Underworld

30.0) What is the Umbra?

30.1) Are there any books on the Umbra?

30.2) Can vampires enter the the Umbra?

30.3) Do vampires have problems with the Umbra?

30.4) Is the Malkavian Madness Network part of the Umbra, Digital Web,

Astral plane, etc.?

---

Section 31: WOD Sources of Information

31.0) What are some WWW Sites with Information for Vampire?

31.1) Books of WOD Fiction

31.2) Non WOD books


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31.3) WOD Gaming and Source books

---

Section 32: Classic Stuff

32.0) Ever heard of Varney the Vampire?

32.1) Have you seen this Nosferatu?

32.2) The other Dracula of 1931.

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Section 1: General Questions

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1.0) Why a FAQ?

Some questions keep re-appearing. The original FAQ attempted to address this

problem by providing a Q&A of the most common (and some uncommon but difficult

to answer) questions. The Revised Editions have answered many of the

questions once listed here. The Current FAQ is closer to being an index

pointing to where the answers can be found.

This FAQ is written and maintained by Ronald Romine who is always on the

lookout for new questions and better answers. His E-mail address changed, but

hopefully will not vanish from under his feet like his old one did. The new

address is:

[email protected]

******************************************************************************

1.1) What is the Vampire-L mailing list?

A mailing list is a way for large numbers of people to exchange messages about

common interests. It uses the power of E-mail, combined with mass mailing.


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By joining, you request that copies of any-and-all messages sent to the

"Vampire-L" address, should also to be sent to your E-mail address. Replies

sent back to the list, are also sent to all other list members.

As you can guess, the Vampire-L mailing list specializes in discussing the

role playing game Vampire: The Masquerade. Through E-mail we exchange ideas,

ask questions, and debate viewpoints about the vampires of the WOD. It is

also used for the exchange of favorite 'house rules', showing off custom

Bloodlines and Disciplines, and *short* stories.

******************************************************************************

1.2) I found this FAQ on a web site. How do I subscribe to the Vampire

mailing list?

Send an E-mail:

To: [email protected]

Subject:

with the message: subscribe vampire-l

******************************************************************************

1.3) How do I Un-subscribe from the Vampire mailing list?

Send another E-mail:


Subject:

with the message: Unsubscribe vampire-l

******************************************************************************


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1.4) Why don't I see my own messages?

After subscribing, the default is to not send you copies of your *own*

messages. To solve this problem, send the command/message:


Subject:

with the message: set vampire-l mail repro

---

However, if you only need to know if your messages are being received by the

others of the list, you can request notes of acknowledgment instead.

Send the message:


Subject:

with the message: set vampire-l mail ack

******************************************************************************

1.5) Are there any other WOD mailing lists?

Yes, there is one for each of the Storyteller games. To access them, follow

the same instructions used for subscribing to Vampire-l, but substitute the

name of the other list:

[email protected] [Vampire: the Masquerade]

[email protected] [Werewolf: The Apocalypse]

[email protected] [Mage: The Ascension]

[email protected] [Wraith: The Oblivion]

[email protected] [Changeling: the Dreaming]


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---

To subscribe to the "Kindred of the East" list, send the E-mail:


Subject:

with the message: subscribe

After you become a member, E-mail is routed through "[email protected]".

---

Vampire: the Dark Ages can be subscribed by sending E-mail to:


Subject:

with the message: subscribe VDA

******************************************************************************

1.6) What are the Golden Rules for Vampire-L?

1) Do not post "In Character" messages to the Vampire-l mailing list.

The list is NOT for "Characters" to use as a part of their Chronicle.

2) Give SPOILER warnings, when discussing Whitewolf fiction and Chronicles.

Most list members like to be surprised by the books they are reading, or by

the Chronicle the Storyteller just started running.

3) Give warning when posting a custom Path, Bloodline, Discipline, or other

work of fiction. Many of the Whitewolf developers are members of the list.

Due to legalities, they are not allowed to read stuff posted to the net.


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4) Never. Ever. Send a 3-meg file to the list. You ask list members if they

want a copy, of a large file then you E-mail the file to their personal

address. Or you post large files on a WEB site, then post the location to the

list so they can download the files in their own time.

******************************************************************************

1.7) Why the Shorthand?

It is easier to type VTM, than "Vampire: the Masquerade", especially when your

having to do it a few hundred times. A fuller list of shorthand is included

at the end of the FAQ:

Revised editions and the newer books:

VRev - Vampire: The Masquerade

VStH - Vampire Storytellers Handbook

VStC - Vampire Storytellers Companion

GttC - Guide to the Camarilla

GttS - Guide to the Sabbat

ToTB - Time of Thin Blood

CotN - Children of the Night

BMST - Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy

NoP - Nights of Prophecy

Dark Age Books:

VDA - Vampire: The Dark Ages

DAC - Vampire: Dark Ages Companion

LS1 - Libellus Sanguinis 1: Masters of the State


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LS2 - Libellus Sanguinis 2: Keepers of the Word

LS3 - Libellus Sanguinis 3: Wolves at the Door

LS4 - Libellus Sanguinis 4: From the Dust (still due)

Older materials:

VTM - Vampire: The Masquerade

VPG - Vampire Players Guide

CB:xx - Clanbook

PGS - The Players Guide to the Sabbat

SHS - Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat

Chapbooks/Prop Books of Lore:

BON - Book of Nod

RDM - Revelations of the Dark Mother

TEF - The Erciyes fragments

******************************************************************************

1.8) How do I use the archives?

Contributions (messages) sent to the list are automatically archived. You can

get a list of the available archive files by sending the command/message:


Subject:

with the message: INDEX VAMPIRE-L

---


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You can then order these files with a command/message:


Subject:

with the message: GET VAMPIRE-L LOGxxxx

******************************************************************************

1.9) What is considered inappropriate SPAM on Vampire-L?

1) Advertisements not related to VTM or any of the Whitewolf games, are

inappropriate. Notices about needing to buy or sell White Wolf books are

acceptable. Dealers looking for business by posting their entire line of

Whitewolf wares are not.

2) Long thread discussions about Wraith, Mage, Werewolf or Changeling are

inappropriate as they have their own mailing lists. Quick questions about how

creatures from Wraith, Mage, Werewolf, or Changeling interact with vampires is

acceptable until the thread refuses to die.

3) Posting binaries to the list is in bad taste. They require additional

decoding, and expand the size of the weekly LOG files. If you have a graphic,

font, or text file large enough to need compressing, post them to a WEB site

and send a notice to the mailing list telling where the file can be found. Or

send them by private E-mail to those who request them.

4) Everything you post is stored in the archives. This includes off-topic

messages sent to the list, and all replies sent back through the list. There

are no filters nor kill files that prevent off-topic messages from filling the

weekly LOG file. Every Off-topic rant you send to the list, will be preserved

"as posted" for years to come.

5) After posting a mid-sized-to-large text file of a new Bloodline, Sect,


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Discipline, creature, etc., please wait at least a week before you post the

re-write or update. It helps in keeping the weekly LOG files small.

6) Don't post a 3-meg file (or any large files) to the list. A weekly LOG

that should have been only 300K of text, swells to 3-meg in size.

******************************************************************************

Section 2: Clans & Bloodlines - Who is what?

******************************************************************************

2.0) What is the difference between a Bloodline and a Clan?

A Bloodline is a lineage of vampires who have established their own identity.

The Founder normally being between 5th and 9th generation.

A Clan is a bloodline with Status. As a game mechanic, this is the status of

having one of the legendary Antediluvians (or 3rds) as a Founder.

VStH (pg. 49-53) covers this topic, and the creation of Bloodlines.

******************************************************************************

2.1) What of the "Clan" status of Bloodlines who no longer have an

Antediluvian?

The official claim of the Camarilla Elders, is the Antediluvians are extinct

(or so deep in torpor, they can never awaken). The loss of an Antediluvian

doesn't mean much to them.

The Sabbat, which hunts Antediluvians, probably sees loss of an Antediluvian

as improving one's Clan status.

VStH (pg 50-51) talks about this under the topic of "Decimation".


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******************************************************************************

2.2) What is a "sub-clan"?

In VDA, the term refers to a Bloodline which has diverged from the main Clan,

but still functions as a loyal part of the parent Clan. They can exist for

various reasons:

- They may be identical to the main Clan except for their religious

beliefs, or the following of a Path of Enlightenment.

- Some Clans use a caste system, in which new members are embraced

into their caste, creating separate bloodlines.

- a member of the Clan started embracing only from a family or

subgroup of mortals, and his prodigy continue the tradition.

Sub-clan are often marked by having its own signature traits, such as an

alternate weakness, or changes in Disciplines.

******************************************************************************

2.3) What of the Antitribu? Are they separate Bloodlines?

A Bloodline is a lineage of vampires which has established its own identity,

the Antitribu simply did so politically (not through mutation).

VStH (pg 49-50) covers this under "Renunciation".

******************************************************************************

2.4) How small can a Bloodline be, and still be a Bloodline?


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A Bloodline can have as little as one member. This vampire may be:

- a Caitiff with the power to pass his traits (a special Merit

found in WOD:Outcasts), thus could create a new bloodline.

- a vampire who has been mutated by magic or science, but has

not sired yet (i.e. Yaryan from CbN2).

- the soul survivor of a bloodline which has died out. (Sartak,

of the Bahadur bloodline, from the WOD novel "Netherworld").

VStH (pg 49) which covers "Mutation and Self-Alteration", and (pg 52-53) which

covers "Siring a New Line".

******************************************************************************

2.5) Who are the Dark Ages Clans, where can they be found, and their

Disciplines?

Cappadocians [CB:Ca, VDA] Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis

Lasombra [LS1, VDA] Dominate, Potence, Obtenebration

Tzimisce [LS1, VDA] Auspex, Animalism, Vicissitude

Ventrue [LS1, VDA] Dominate, Fortitude, Presence

Toreador [LS2, VDA] Auspex, Celerity, Presence

Tremere [LS2, VDA] Auspex, Dominate, Thaumaturgy

Brujah [LS2, VDA] Celerity, Potence, Presence

Gangrel [LS3, VDA] Animalism, Fortitude, Protean

Malkavian [LS3, VDA] Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate

Nosferatu [LS3, VDA] Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence

Assamites [LS4, VDA] Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus

Ravnos [LS4, VDA] Animalism, Fortitude, Chimerstry


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Setites [LS4, VDA] Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis

******************************************************************************

2.6) What of the Dark Age Bloodlines?

Lamia [DAC] Mortis, Potence, Deimos

Lhiannan [DAC] Ogham, Animalism, Presence

Liabon [DAC] Abombwe, Animalism, Fortitude

Salubri [CB:Sa, DAC] Auspex, Fortitude, Valeran

Baali [CB:Ba, VDA] Obfuscate, Presence, Daimoinon

Giovanni [CB:Ca, ] Auspex, Fortitude, Mortis

Gargoyles [BSS] Fortitude, Potence, Flight

Kiasyd [LS1] Potence, Mytherceria, Obtenebration

Telyavs * [LS2] Auspex, Presence, Sielanic-Thaumaturgy

Greek Gangrel [LS3] Animalism, Obfuscate, Protean

Mariner Gangrel [LS3] Animalism, Fortitude, Aquatic-Protean

Assamite - Vizier [LS3] Quietus, Auspex, Celerity

Assamite - Sorcerer [LS3] Quietus, Auspex, Assamite Sorcery

******************************************************************************

2.7) Who are the Modern Clans, where they can be found, and what are

their Disciplines?

All Clans are listed in VRev:


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Brujah [VTM, GttC, CB:Br] Celerity, Potence, Presence

Gangrel [VTM, GttC, CB:Ga] Animalism, Fortitude, Protean

Malkavian [VTM, GttC, CB:Ma] Auspex, Dementation, Obfuscate

Nosferatu [VTM, GttC, CB:No] Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence

Toreador [VTM, GttC, CB:To] Auspex, Celerity, Presence

Tremere [VTM, GttC, CB:Tr] Auspex, Dominate, Thaumaturgy

Ventrue [VTM, GttC, CB:Ve] Dominate, Fortitude, Presence

Assamite [VPG, , CB:As] Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus

Giovanni [VPG, , CB:Gi] Dominate, Potence, Necromancy

Ravnos [VPG, , CB:Ra] Animalism, Fortitude, Chimerstry

Setites [VPG, , CB:Se] Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis

Lasombra [PGS, GttS, CB:La] Dominate, Potence, Obtenebration

Tzimisce [PGS, GttS, CB:Tz] Animalism, Auspex, Vicissitude

******************************************************************************

2.8) Who are the lesser Bloodlines of the Modern Age, where they can be

found, and what are their Disciplines?

Gargoyles [StH, GttC] Fortitude, Potence, Visceratika

Lasombra Antitribu [GttC] Dominate, Potence, Obtenebration

Blood Brothers [StH, GttS] Celerity, Potence, Sanguinus

City Gangrel [PGS, GttS] Celerity, Obfuscate, Protean

Kiasyd ** [SHS, GttS] Dominate, Mytherceria, Obtenebration

Salubri Antitribu [GttS] Auspex, Fortitude, Valeran

Harbingers of Skulls [GttS] Auspex, Fortitude, Necromancy

Serpents of Light [GttS] Obfuscate, Presence, Serpentis

Daug. Of Cacaphony [VPG, VStC] Fortitude, Melpominee, Presence


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Samedi [VPG, VStC] Obfuscate, Fortitude, Thanatosis

Salubri [VPG, VStC] Auspex, Fortitude, Obeah

Baali [StH, VStH] Obfuscate, Presence, Daimoinon

Nagaraja [DSBH, VStH] Auspex, Necromancy, Dominate

True Brujah [DSBH, VStH] Potence, Presence, Temporis

Tzimisce - Koldunic [VRev] Auspex, Animalism, Koldunic Sorcery

Tzimisce - Bratovitch [VRev] Potence Animalism, Vicissitude

Setites - Warrior [VRev] Potence, Presence, Serpentis

Ravnos - Phuri Dae [VRev] Auspex, Animalism, Chimerstry

** The Kiasyd are also known by the name of "Nocturnae".

******************************************************************************

Section 3: Bloodlines - The Mutation.

******************************************************************************

3.0) When did new Bloodlines first start forming?

The branching of vampirism into 13 bloodlines can be said to have started at

the point Caine cursed the 13 Clan Founders. TEF places the cursing during

the time of Empires (post Flood, but before the start of the Second City).

The first off-shoot bloodline from the 13 appears to be the Baali. Most of

their origin stories link their creation time to after the founding of the

Second City, yet before its fall.

******************************************************************************

3.1) What is the origin of the Baali???

No one is sure, but there are three basic stories telling of their origin:


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- From DAC (pg.170-171), there is the story of Shaitan, whose pride in his own

appearance and singing voice, makes him jealous of his Elders and their

thicker blood. Supposedly, he is the first childe of Ashur. He forms a war

party of 4th generation vampires, one from each Clan. After his defeat, he

became an Infernalist, leading an early version of what could be called

"antitribu". These antitribu being 4th generation childer of various Clans.

They sired broods and infiltrated the Clans to recruit others, or lead them to

destruction. However, this story takes place during the time of the First

City.

- DAC (pg 172-174), links the Baali to the Salubri during the time of the

Second City. The Baali were a mortal cult of Infernalist, who were seeking

the secret of immortality. Saulot sent four warrior Salubri to infiltrate the

Baali and learn how close they were to gaining immortality. Saulot's own

childe betrayed the others, and soon the Baali leaders were embraced. This

lead to several Salubri-Baali wars. (CB:Sa, pg.66)

- From their own Clanbook Baali (pg 13-18) the Baali tell an origin that may

be the most unsettling of all. The "Children of Darkness" were beings of pure

darkness who fell, burning to earth when God created the light. They sleep

beneath the earth. The Baali, then a tribe of mortals, found one. They

learned how to tap its power using the magic of True Names. One night during

a rite, a vampire came to them, calling them "childish" in their evil. He

attacked the tribe, tortured & played with them, then threw them into the pit

where they sacrificed. He spilled his blood into the pit, then left. Three

4th generation vampires emerged from the pit. These became the Progenitors of

the Baali. Each Progenitor believes the mystery vampire to be a different

Antediluvian: Saulot, Ashur (Cappadocius), or Tzimisce. (Cb:Sa, pg.67-68)

******************************************************************************

3.2) Who are these True Brujah guys?


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There are legends of a vampire named Troile (childe of Brujah) who diablerized

the Brujah Clan Founder during the fall of the Second City. Troile then sires

his/her own Clan using the same name "Brujah". (BON pg.54)

The legends also speak of Brujah having childer who survived the fall of the

Second City, who then formed the bloodline now know as the "True Brujah".

While first mentioned in the Brujah Clanbook, the write up for the True Brujah

first appeared in "Dark Secrets of the Black Hand". The revised version of

the Bloodline appeared in VStH. (pg.34-35)

There are two differences between the True Brujah, and the more common "False"

Brujah.

- True Brujah do not seem to have the same weakness. The game mechanic of

their weakness requires them to pay twice as much experience to raise

Humanity, Path ratings, Conscience and Conviction (VStH). This is due to the

atrophy of their emotions as they study and contemplate.

- Instead of having Celerity, the True Brujah have Temporis. Some claim

Celerity devolved from Temporis, while others believed Temporis is an

outgrowth of Celerity.

---

The Erciyes Fragments (pg.109) speak of the diablerie happening three times

among the 13 Clan Founders. Of the first, it speaks of the Ante's silent

death, unheard, and "children who will bear his name, but not his blood."

This appears to refer to Troile's diablerie of Brujah.

******************************************************************************


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3.3) What of the Old Clan Tzimisce?

Information on the "revised" Old Clan can be found scattered throughout the

VStH (pg.191-192).

The current portrayal casts them as a group of "Old World" Tzimisce. Not so

much as an offshoot or bloodline, but Elders from several Tzimisce lineages

which long ago decided to walk a different path from the rest of the Clan.

Old World Tzimisce do not have Vicissitude as a Clan Discipline, instead they

have Auspex, Animalism and Dominate. Powers better suited for ruling small

communities and traveling the wilds, instead of playing with flesh.

Vicissitude is seen as unwholesome, and freakish. Not the type of power the

wise and knowledgeable leader uses.

A small lunatic fringe of "Old World" Tzimisce has its own beliefs concerning

Vicissitude. They wage a Shadow War against beings they see attempting to

subvert the worldly power of vampires. Dark Spirits and evil ghosts who

possess vampires. Shape-shifting is seen as a sign of possession, making

those who possess Vicissitude, Protean, or Serpentis their prime targets. The

lunatics even hunt werewolves and other shape shifters, believing their shape

shifting to be evidence that they are possessed by these spirits and ghosts.

VStH notes that after the destruction of the Black Hand Sect, the Old World

Tzimisce returned to their lands (which many still retained), and many have

turned to practicing Koldunic Sorcery.

******************************************************************************

3.4) What happened to the Cappadocians?

Augustus Joe and the Raiders of the Lost Tomb, ate them. But seriously, there

were two events that affected their numbers: the Feast of Folly, and the rise


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of the Giovanni.

At one point in early Dark Ages, Cappadocius called *ALL* members of the Clan

for a great meeting, judged each vampire, and sealed the unworthy in the

Clan's catacombs beneath the city of Kaymakli. This appears to of happened

before Vampire: the Dark Ages begins. (CB:Ca pg.17-18)

In 1444 AD, Augustus Giovanni rose up and Diablerized Cappadocius, then had

his own bloodline hunt down all the remaining Cappadocian bloodlines.

******************************************************************************

3.5) If the Giovanni are "Childer of Cappadocius" - why are their

Disciplines & Weakness different?

The Greybox on page 42, of the Giovanni Clanbook states they abandoned Mortis

for Necromancy.

On page 14, the Giovanni claim the modern Clan weakness appeared only after

the Giovanni diablerized the Lamia. (The Deimos Discipline's second level

power has the same affect as the modern Giovanni's bite.)

If diablerizing the Lamia caused this mutating effect, it may of also resulted

in the gaining of the Lamia's Discipline of Potence as well. However, others

think the switch to Potence was the result of embracing ghouls.

As for why the Giovanni switched to Dominate, it may have been a choice to

exchange the last of the old Disciplines for the Discipline of control.

---

There is a story in Clanbook Cappadocian (pg 20-21), of Japheth laying a curse

upon the vessel containing the blood used to embrace Augustus Giovanni.


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The curse would become the Giovanni weakness. However, this does not explain

why the new weakness did not appear for nearly four centuries.

******************************************************************************

3.6) Why do the Toreador Antitribu have a different Clan weakness from

their Clan counterparts?

For years the Toreador weakness has been like the Wizard of Oz, a powerful

looking figure, but all smoke and mirrors.

With Vrev, Whitewolf has given us a glimpse of the man behind the curtain. It

was just an added game mechanic (a Self-Control Roll), but it gives us a

foundation on which we can build some spectacular "expressions" of the

Toreador weakness.

---

So, why is the Antitribu weakness different? Maybe it isn't.

Antitribu share the same (Self-Control) weakness, but the Sabbat "culture" has

opened newer, non-traditional ways to "express" the clan weakness.

Many of the Toreadors of the Sabbat are embracing the skills of Body Crafts

(tattoos, piercing, ritual scarring, etc.) as arts. Other Sabbat Toreador are

viewing the acts of violence, torture and pain as having artistic forms.

******************************************************************************

3.7) Why does the Salubri weakness keep changing?

The "Erciyes Fragments" speaks of the Clan weaknesses as Curses placed

directly on the 3rd generation by Caine, and to be passed down to all prodigy.


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Pg 89, states that Saulot was not Cursed by Caine. Instead, he and his

prodigy were blessed, that all might recognize who they were. (Some suggest

this was the origin of the third eye.)

In theory, the Salubri do not have a weakness, unless it is the inability to

conceal who they are.

However, by following "the Commandments of Saulot" or by adhering to certain

(Warrior/Healer) philosophies, they seem to create weaknesses for themselves.

******************************************************************************

Section 4: Bloodlines - The Created

******************************************************************************

4.0) What makes "Created Bloodlines" different from the other offshoot

Bloodlines?

The normal method of creating a vampire is to drain a person of blood until he

reaches the point where he will die. At this point feeding him fresh vampire

blood causes him to transform into a vampire. The person can also be killed,

then feed fresh vampire blood before his spirit escapes his flesh.

In both cases, the person is already dying when he partakes of blood, and the

blood is fresh, still full of power. This is important as normal vampire

blood starts losing power after leaving the vampire's body. The power to

embrace vanishing within seconds of leaving the vampire's body.

---

Now, what about a person who uses old vampire blood as an ingredient in an

immortality potion. The person doesn't kill himself (or appear to die), but

becomes a vampire anyway?


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Or a person who attempts to become a vampire by using a magic ritual. It

appears to work, but the person has to eat flesh as well as drink blood. And

instead of having a pair of fangs, all the teeth become "shark teeth".

How about a person who is fed the blood of two different kinds of vampires

while undergoing a magic ritual using mystic earth. The person grows wings,

stony appearance, and an innate flight power not possessed by vampires.

A type of vampire that can not embrace? Is created via magic, but only in

groups in which the individuals are somehow linked?

Vampires who get merged with the blood of another race of supernaturals? Not

only do they look abnormal, they have the weakness of the other race.

Finally, the vampire whose experiment with magic caused it to lose the ability

to embrace. However, it gains a new power linking it to animal spirits.

---

These bloodlines lead to the question... In a WOD, there are "half-vampire"

creatures called ghouls, Revenants and dhampirs. So, can you be sure these

"created bloodlines" are 100% vampires?

******************************************************************************

4.1) Can you tell me were to find the Created Bloodlines?

Tremere (VRev pg.78, CB:Tr)

Nagaraja (VStH pg.32, DSBH pg.60)

Kiasyd (GttS pg.62, LS1 pg.28-29, SHS pg.38)

Ahrimanes (SHS pg.37)


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Gargoyles (BMST pg.135-136, GttC pg.56, BSS pg.76)

Blood Brothers (BMST pg.136-137, GttS pg.54)

******************************************************************************

4.2) What happened to the Created Bloodlines?

The Tremere, Gargoyles and Kiasyd are doing well. As for the rest...

- The Black Hand's City of Enoch was destroyed, leaving only

seven Nagaraja left. (VStH pg.32, pg.191)

- The Ahrimanes have vanished from the face of the Earth.

(VStH pg.52)

- Blood Brothers can not embrace, and may be dying out.

(VStH pg.50, under Creation.)

******************************************************************************

4.3) Why did Whitewolf design Gargoyles as vampires, and not make

them mystical creatures?

In the Real World, Gargoyles were never mystical creatures, they were a style

of French architecture.

At one time, gutters would spill the rain waters directly from the heights of

a build's roof or ledge. A way was needed to prevent the water from running

down the side of the building (causing water damage). So the gutters funneled

the water away from their build, forming a system of spouts.

At some point, the spouts were craved into grotesque looking faces


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representing men and animals. The effect was a ring of statuary surrounding

the roof (or standing at the corners); water pouring forth from their mouths.

The channeling of water through their `throats' lead to them being called

gargoyles. The french word for throat was gargouille (as in "to gargle").

******************************************************************************

4.4) Can other vampires learn the Gargoyle's Flight Discipline?

In GttC (pg.115), the Gargoyle's power of Flight has been retconned into a

separate Discipline, it is no longer a side-power of learning Visceratika.

Part of the ritual that creates a Gargoyle, grants it a variant of "Movement

of the Mind" as an innate power.

Being a "by-product" of the alchemical/thaumaturgical process used to create

the Gargoyles, Flight can not be learned by any other vampire. (Even if they

tasted Gargoyle blood or Diablerize a Gargoyle.)

---

Note: Visceratika can be learned by others. It does not affect appearance nor

does it grant wings (or flight) to non-gargoyles.

******************************************************************************

Section 5: The Clanless - Caitiff, Thin-Bloods and others.

******************************************************************************

5.0) What are Caitiff?

Within the game:

Caitiff are considered a social problem involving vampires who were Abandoned,


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Uneducated or Orphaned. Rarely are they presented to the Prince, and most

were not sired with permission. Most don't even know who (or what) sired

them, and in the Modern Nights their blood is often so thin and weak, it lacks

the strength to hold any Clan traits.

---

Outside the game:

There is more to it than "vampire street urchins". An anomaly in the sire's

blood permitted the passing of Caine's Curse, but failed to transmit the

associated "clan traits". Yet, their blood is just as thick and powerful as

any other vampire of the same generation.

Thus, Caitiffs are really throwbacks to the time before the passing of Clan

traits began. It is like discovering your pedigree poodle just gave birth to

a creature from the Ice Age -- a Dire Wolf.

---

Caitiff are strong-blooded vampires which lack the Clan weakness, signature

Disciplines, Clan specific Flaws or Merits. They can not create Disciplines,

but they can learn all Disciplines equality well.

******************************************************************************

5.1) How do Caitiff discover what their Disciplines are?

Caitiffs have no Disciplines, this is what makes them Caitiff.

The character creation rules are for creating Neonate vampires; characters

that have already been vampires for 25 years. These rules are not for

creating characters that were embraced just yesterday.


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Under Whitewolf's rules, it is assumed that most vampires will develop between

3 to 5 Dots in Disciplines during their first 25 years of existence. The 3

Dots granted to Caitiffs, represent the Disciplines they were able to learn

>from others, or teach themselves through trail-and-error over 25 years.

GttC (pg.54) provides a common set of Disciplines a Caitiff might acquire

(Potence, Fortitude and Presence). These three Disciplines are common enough,

traditionally granted to vampires by mortal legends, and do NOT require the

Caitiff to learn how to empower Disciplines with blood.

******************************************************************************

5.2) I thought Caitiff could create Disciplines?

"WOD:Outcasts" (pg.37) provided the 2nd ed., guidelines for playing Caitiffs.

Under its rulings, as a result of not being "bound" by Clan Disciplines, they

had the special ability to create new Disciplines. They were also freed from

having the Clan weakness of their sires, unless it was purchased as a Flaw.

Under the new Vrev rules, (ToTB pg.32), the power to create new Disciplines

now belongs to the Thin-Blooded. Thin-blooded Caitiff can create new

Disciplines, but like all other Thin-blooded, they lose the power if they

lower their generation past 14th.

******************************************************************************

5.3) Aren't all Caitiff supposed to be thin-blooded?

The creation of Caitiffs is often blamed on the thinning of blood. The belief

being that Caitiffs lack Clan traits due to their blood being too thin and

weak to carry the traits.


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This is not necessarily true. Caitiff are simply vampires without Clan

traits. They can be sired by vampires of *any* generation, regardless of how

thin or thick the sire's blood is.

So, unless they have "Thin-Blooded Flaws", Caitiff are just as thick-blooded

and powerful as any Clan vampire of the same generation.

******************************************************************************

5.4) What about extremely high generation vampires?

In recent years a new group of vampires has appeared. Vampires whose blood is

truly thin. Not by flaw, but by generation. These are the 14th and 15th

generation vampires, truly the Thin-Blooded.

While they have 10 point blood pools, they cannot spend their full blood pool

to power Disciplines or boost Attributes. The reserved blood points can only

be used by the daysleep.

A 14th generation vampire has a 50% chance of also being a Caitiff, while all

15th generation vampires are Caitiff (having no clan traits).

Many have special abilities such as the power to create new Disciplines, and

clairvoyant powers.

See "Time of Thin Blood" (pg 15-19).

******************************************************************************

5.5) The Thin-Blooded can create Disciplines?

One of the mutations of the Thin-blooded is the amazing power to create new


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Disciplines. They still have the 14th & 15th generational limits, which

prevent them from developing the new Disciplines above level 3 or 4.

---

As for why? My favorite theory:

The power of an Elder's vitae is like a lead pipe. It is solid, heavy, strong

and can make quite an impact when used as a weapon. But this also makes it

stiff and unbending. Only the most powerful magic or science can re-forge the

"lead pipe" into a new shape.

The Thin-blood's vitae has grown diluted, become thin. Their vitae has become

like a wire coat hanger. So thin, so weak, so easily bent into new shapes.

Their vitae will never make an impact, but it just might open a few car doors.

******************************************************************************

5.6) Who are the Clanless?

The Clanless are the vampires who lack Clan legitimacy.

These are the Orphaned and Abandoned vampires whose lineage is "Unknown".

(This group also includes vampires who have abandoned their Clans.)

Some are true Caitiffs, others are Thin-bloods. However, many are thick-

blooded vampires who are simply ignorant of their Clan lineage.

Many thick-bloods can eventually prove their Clan derivation, gaining

acceptance into their Clans, even though their sires remain Unknown.

******************************************************************************

Section 6: Generations - Who is What?


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******************************************************************************

6.0) Is Caine 1st or 0th generation?

Good question.

In the real world, generation measurement begins with a "Primus". The Primus

generates the "1st Generation", who in turn generate the "2nd Generation".

In the WOD, Caine is considered both the 1st vampire and the 1st Generation of

vampires. His childer are referred to as the Second Generation.

---

However, there are other theories:

While immortal & cursed, Caine didn't gain the powers of the vampire until

after he drank the blood of the Lilith. Thus, in a way the Lilith is the

Primus of vampirism, and Caine is the 1st generation of vampires.

Others place Caine as a Primus, and claim that he did sire a "1st" generation

of vampires. These vampires are a total mystery, but are the true sires of

the 2nd Generation vampires known as Zillah, Irad, and Enoch.

******************************************************************************

6.1) What are the Second Generation?

The traditional view of vampire lineage assumes Caine was the 1st generation

of vampires. Thus, all vampires sired by him (his childer) constitute the

Second Generation of vampires.

Most Clans name only three vampires as being embraced by Caine: Zillah, Irad

and Enoch.


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The Assamites name two more vampires as embraced by Caine: The King and Queen

of En'esh. Supposedly, the King & Queen were killed before the embrace of the

other three. (Assamite Clanbook)

The Erciyes Fragments name five vampires (who survived the Deluge) as being

Caine's Childer: Enoch, Zylla, Jabal, Adah, Tubal and Mehujael. (TEF pg.81)

******************************************************************************

6.2) Who else is "claimed" as Second Generation?

- Enoch the first-born, Zylla [Caine's] most beautiful, Jabal

and Adah and Tubal and Mehujael. (TEF pg.81)

- The Crone who blood bonded Caine through a ritual. She then commanded

Caine to make her immortal. (BON pg.40-43)

- The Ravnos Clan claims Ravnos was embraced by a vampire called Kaen,

who is claimed to be Caine. (CB:Ra pg.13-17)

- The King & Queen of En'esh (City of Enoch?). Embraced by Khayyin,

who is claimed to be Caine. (Assamite Clanbook, pg.13)

- Haqim who embraced himself using blood stolen from the King & Queen

of En'esh (pg.14)

- The Crone commanded the blood bonded Caine to give her some of his

"Childer's childer" which were never seen again. (BON pg.44)

- Dracian, whose wife used a rock stained with his blood and the magic

of her own Blood, to transform Ravnos into a vampire.(WOD:Gypsies 89-91)


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- Some Cainites believe Ashur to be another name for Cappadocius. Others

believe Ashur to be the sire of Cappadocius. (CB:Cappadocian, pg.12)

- Osiris, was embraced by a vampire called Typhon. If Osiris was 3rd,

then Typhon would have been 2nd. (Mummy, Hunters Hunted)

*****************************************************************************

6.3) What happened to the 2nd Generation?

- Enoch the first-born, Zylla, Jabal and Adah and Tubal and Mehujael,

were ALL destroyed during the fall of the Empire (TEF pg.81)

- The Crone was staked by Caine, and left to die in the Sun. (BON pg.44)

- As the King and Queen of En'esh slept during the day, they were killed

by (the mortal) Haqim and his troops. Haqim claims to have drained his

own blood using a knife and was then was fed their blood by his troops,

which turned him into a vampire. (CB:As, pg.13)

- During the fall of the Empire, Nosferatu tried to diablerize his sire,

Zillah, in the process she died. (CB:No, pg.16)

- Dracian was growing a magical fruit. Another vampire called Amriat

sent a group of men to attack at dawn and seize the fruit. During the

attack, Daenna (his wife) fled with fruit. She returned to find only

Dracian's blood stains. (WOD:Gypsies pg.89-91)

- In the alternate origin, Ravnos was embraced directly by Caine. This

version has Ravnos siring Ennoia (Gangrel). Ravnos's mortal sister

"witnessed through a vision", him being nailed to the rooftop of a high

temple and destroyed by the sun. (CB:Ra)


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- As for Ashur, there was no proof that he ever existed. In fact many

believe Ashur to be another name for Cappadocious.

- Except for the embracing of Osiris, Typhon is not mentioned anywhere

else. (Mummy 1st & 2nd, THH)

*****************************************************************************

6.4) Why all the confusion about some Clans having a 2nd generation

progenitor, or a progenitor claimed as a 4th by another Clan?

The Erciyes Fragments reveals the blood of Caine did not weaken in the

beginning. A 99th generation vampire was as potent and powerful as the 1st

generation vampire.

During the Flood, the vampires hunted and fed off each other. As all were of

equal power, diablerie did not grant any benefits of increased power or blood

pool. It was simply the only way to fed during this time, after the Flood

water subsided, the surviving vampires were still of equal power.

After the Flood, the rest of the survivors could not find Caine, although they

had an awareness that Caine survived and watched them. Left alone, the

survivors (some of which were Caine's own childer) took over the Cities of the

Children of Noah. They sired more childer, who in turn sired their own

childer.

All were of equal power & abilities.

---

A second possibility is all "vampires" are not related.

The vampires of the East are acknowledged as being a different supernatural


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creature from the "Kindred" of the West.

Some Western Bloodlines/Clans could have a different origin than Caine, but

share enough traits to be confused for Cainites.

*****************************************************************************

6.5) If TEF is true, why did the generations start "degrading" in power?

Between the time of the Flood and the founding of the "Second City", there was

a "Time of Empires". When the vampires more or less scattered, taking over

mortal Empires founded by the children of Noah. They waged war against each

other in secret, and openly.

Then came the fall of the post-Flood Empires, when childer turned on sire.

During this time, the Childer of Caine were destroyed. Caine who vanished

during the Flood, now re-appeared after his last Childe was destroyed.

Caine individual cursed 12 of 13 surviving vampires, then cursed all surviving

vampires. The blood of all surviving vampires would now weaken with every

generation until it became as water.

After this cursing, the 13 Clan Founders built a new city from the ashes of

the old Empires, the Second City. They then sired a new batch of childer, who

for the first time had weaker blood. The new childer were called the Fourth

Generation. ((previous generations were referred to as Childer of Childer)

---

These events allow for the 13 "surviving" vampires to be a mix of generations

>from 2nd to 99th. Some even being the childer (or grandchilder) of other

survivors.


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However, all of them now sire "4th generation" childer regardless of the

Survivor's actual generation or relationship to each other.

The Erciyes Fragments (pg.91), BON (pg.52-53)

******************************************************************************

Section 7: Origins - Not of Caine

******************************************************************************

7.0) Don't all vampires have to be descended from Caine?

Not necessarily. The business about all vampires being related, thus

"kindred" appears to be a Camarilla story used to unite the Clans. The Dark

Age books reveal at least three Clans use to have non-Caine origin stories.

The Eastern Kindred are not of Caine.

Also consider this, the Lilith was not of Caine. She was already suffering a

similar curse, but she had powers. Caine gained his Disciplines from drinking

her blood. What if Caine (or Lilith) feed his/her blood to others who were

already cursed with undeath? Not turning them into vampires, but transferring

the power of Disciplines?

******************************************************************************

7.1) Some Clans really claim a different origin than Caine?

Yep.

In LS3, and "Wolves of the Sea" it reveals the Setites, Gangrel and Ravnos,

have origin stories which do not speak of Caine.

******************************************************************************


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7.2) What do the Setites claim as their origins?

The Setites tell an origin were Set & Osiris were brothers. Ra, their father

desired the wealth held by the dead of the Underworld. Ra created laws which

unbalanced "Maat" and weakened the dead, allowing him to defeat them when he

crossed over into the Underworld.

Osiris, was granted the Upper kingdom of Egypt. Set requested the lower

kingdom, the desert wastes, desiring a place were the people could still live

under the ways of Maat. Ra refused him, and exiled Set to the deepestdesert.

While Set was in this desert, he dug for water and uncovered the dark river

which bridged life and death. Still he drank of the dark water. His Ka & Ba

remained in his body, but his akh fled to the Underworld. His akh revealed to

him what Ra had done to the afterlife.

Drinking the water made him a creature of both worlds, one of the unliving.

By giving his blood (which still contains traces of the dark water) Set is

able to show others the truth about the corruption of the Underworld. This

process sends the akh to the Underworld, while the Ba & Ka remain.

As both Setites and Cainites are beings of both worlds, they share similar

restrictions and needs. Sleeping by day, drinking of blood, etc.

As for the "Cainites" origins, Setites believe the upsetting of Maat released

evil spirits into the world. The Cainites being the descendants (or servants)

of these evil spirits.

*****************************************************************************

7.3) What do the Ravnos & Gangrel say about their origin?


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The Gangrel have two origin stories.

The one held by the Gangrel of the North, those of Viking descent, tell a

story of Odin One-Eye, lord of the slain and necromancer.

While traveling the battle fields of earth looking for slain warriors worthy

to fill the halls of Valhal, Odin came across the wounded Canarl. Odin

learned that Canarl had a rune-mark upon his forehead, and that Canarl

believed he could not die.

Odin gave Canarl of his blood, making him strong and untouched by age, and

pronounced that by the art of war Canarl would rule. But the Fates demanded

satiation. Canarl would have to hide, avoiding sunlight and fire. Drink only

blood and no meat.

(Wolves of the Sea, page 41-42)

---

The other is told by Gangrel originally from the East.

Ennoia and Churka (Ravnos) were the children of gods. They leave their

father's house, as all their siblings are arguing/battling over who gets to be

god of what.

Traveling to their mother's house they start arguing over who will be the

first to address her. Being their father's children they begin to argue. A

war begins, and they recruit others.

They fought only by night, so their mother would not see them. Ennoia was

winning, but lose the war due to betrayal. The Gangrel are force to abandon

the Eastern hunting grounds.


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Meanwhile, The Ravnos awaken the Giants (Cathayans) and war with them.

(LS3, pg 12)

******************************************************************************

Section 8: Antediluvians - Who is Who?

******************************************************************************

8.0) What is an Antediluvian?

Antediluvian means `before the Deluge', referring to the ancient Flood of the

Bible. It is also used to describe anything from pre-history; the time before

civilizations (or groups of people) left historical records.

After the Deluge destroyed the First City, (TEF pg.69-72) vampires survived by

hunting and feeding from their fellow vampires beneath the waters. Many

vampires were killed in this way (diablerie).

Caine and the vampires who survived the Flood, are collectively known as the

Antediluvians.

---

However, Antediluvian has also become a title for vampires who are considered

to have blood of Antediluvian strength.

As such, both vampires sired before the Curse of Weakening Blood, and vampires

who diablerized one of these Ancients are referred to as beingAntediluvians.

The most notable Antediluvians being the "Clan Founders", who are rated as

being 3rd generation in blood strength.

******************************************************************************


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8.1) How many Antediluvians are there?

If Antediluvian is used to mean vampires sired before the Flood, or even

vampires who survived the Flood, no one knows. Tradition allows for only 13

vampires of (3rd generation strength) surviving the fall of the Second City.

- in his letter to Mina Harker at the beginning of the book, Vlad states that,

in his research, he has come across various writings which state that the

Third Generation numbered at 9, 27, 100, and 0. (VTM, pg.13)

- in VRev, there is a mention of a BON fragment which claims "three by 10"

instead of "three and 10" as the number of Antediluvians. Meaning there were

30 instead of 13 Antediluvians.

Many Storytellers use a "standardized canon" in which regardless of how many

Antediluvians there once were:

- all the Second generation vampires as destroyed.

- only 13 Vampires survived the Fall of the Empire,

- each of the vampires suffered a different curse from Caine.

- each of the 13 then Founded a Clan, siring 4th generation vampires.

- some of the 13 are now dead or have been replaced via diablerie.

******************************************************************************

8.2) Which Antediluvians are still alive?

If you mean the 13 Clan Founders, all are believed to be alive except:

* BC, Brujah, was diablerized by Troile, (CB:Br pg.14)

1133 AD, Saulot, was diablerized by Tremere, (CB:Tr pg.17)

1405 AD, Lasombra, dies at the hand of his childe, (CotI pg. 41,49)


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1413 AD, Tzimisce, is attacked by Lugoj, (CotI pg. 43-45)

1444 AD, Cappadocius, was diablerized by Giovanni, (GC1 pg. 80-81)

1999 AD, Ravnos, dies in a massive conflict, (ToTB pg.115-127)

* It is believed that Troile diablerized Brujah

during the Fall of the Second City.

---

Note:

The Erciyes Fragment contain prophecies describing the diablerie of three

Antediluvians (pg.109-111), and the total destruction of another (pg.126).

******************************************************************************

8.3) OK, what were the generations of Osiris and Set?

According to Bill Bridges. When "Hunter's Hunted" was originally written, the

Children of Osiris were conceived as one of the 13 original Clans, and Set was

a 4th Gen Diablerist. (However, he also said several of the details had

"changed" since he left.)

However, Frank Frey (the Setite creator) claims Set was supposed to be a

normal Antediluvian. So it appears Set was embraced as a 3rd.

The Nosferatu claim Set is a Nictuku. The Nictuku being the 4th generation

Nosferatu, who are blood-bonded to their Ante and hunt the non-bonded

Nosferatu.

---

If Set and Osiris were embraced before the Cursing of Weakening Blood, their


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generations do not matter. They both had blood of Antediluvian strength, and

would be siring "4th generation" childer after the fall of the Empires.

******************************************************************************

8.4) Who were some of the other possible Antediluvians?

There are many ancient vampires whose generations are unknown or at least

unconfirmed. They are believed to be of very low Generation. Some are

rumored to be 2nds, others anywhere from 2nd to 5th.

Namrael: (WOD:Midnight Circus, pg.26-27)

Namrael the Enochite, she broke from "the undead city of her sires" and joined

the Circus. Being of Enoch implies she is a produce of the First City, which

would give her blood Antediluvian strength.

However, she is supposedly dead. Her story has her sacrificing herself in a

rite to strengthen the Midnight Circus so it could continue. In the story she

bleeds to death to feed her power to the Incarna "Cara" an ancient spirit of

the "Midnight Circus".

---

Ashur: (Cappadocian Clanbook, pg.12)

While many believe Ashur was another name for Cappadocius, some Cappadocians

believed Ashur to be Cappadocius's sire. They cite the claims of the

Assamites as possible evidence that there were more than three 2nds.

Since Ashur is Egyptian for Osiris, it is possible he was Cappadocius's sire.

Ashur having been destroyed by Set, before the Curse of Weakening Blood.


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---

Laodice: (CotN, pg 98-100)

Mahatma of the 4th generation, names Laodice as his sire. It has been

revealed that Laodice is another name for Cappadocius.

---

Elimelech: (CotN, pg.14-15)

Elimelech The Twice Damned, of the Sabbat, is rumored to be anywhere from 2nd

to 5th Generation. His stats in CotN reveals he has a Humanity of 1, and

several Disciplines at 9. This would make him at least 4th generation.

As for his age, he claims to be the Elimelech of the Book of Ruth, buried by

his wife after she mistook his recent embrace for death.

*****************************************************************************

8.5) What about the Crone?

There are three references to the Crone:

Book of Nod:

This Crone was mortal to Caine's senses, and their meeting appears to predate

the Flood, as Caine's post-flood appearance supposedly happens after Zillah is

killed.

Caine sought the Crone's help with winning Zillah's love, and learned the

secret of the Blood bond.


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Both this Crone and Zillah "lived" at the same time. Making this Crone a

childe of Caine and an Antediluvian. However, Caine supposedly killed her.

---

Clanbook Baali:

Some Baali believe the Crone to be the "third" Baali Progenitor.

This 4th generation, post Deluge vampire would be a different Crone from the

one Caine knew.

---

Dark Ages Companion:

The Lhiannan Bloodline of the Dark Ages claims descendence from the Crone.

It is possible Caine's Crone sired a bloodline before her death. The Lhiannan

special Discipline is quite mystic in nature, and might be a remnant of the

Crone's magic. The Baali's Crone would be a more likely choice. Both their

weakness and the Lhiannan's weakness are similar in nature.

But in LS3, the Gangrel claim the Lhiannan as an offshoot. The Lhiannan

founder being a chieftain of Ennoia, who betrayed her in her war against the

Ravnos. The Dark Age Gangrel hunt them.

*****************************************************************************

8.6) How old are the Antediluvians?

This is an *IFFY* answer (if this, then that):

- If the origin of vampires really was the Cain of the Bible...


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- If you place the casting out of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden

at the traditional 4000 BC...

- If there was a Biblical Deluge.

Cain killed Abel before Seth was born. Seth was born when Adam was 130 years

old. How much earlier Cain & Abel were born before this 130 year time frame,

is not recorded. This places the birth of Caine between 4000-3870 BC. This

makes Caine between 5869 and 6000 years old, counting from his mortal birth

date.

The Antediluvians were embraced before the Flood. One source places the Flood

in the 1656th year (about 2344 BC). This date is derived by using Genesis to

cross reference the ages of the men listed. When they were born, and number

of years lived before their death. This places Methuselah of the Bible, as

dying in the 1656th year. Methuselah is said to of died in the same year of

the Flood. Making the vampires of the First City *at least* 4341 years old,

if embraced in the same year of the Flood. But counting their mortal life

spans, and the possibility they were embrace within a year of Caine's Curse,

they could be an additional 1655 years older.

Vampires sired after the Flood (postdiluvian 3rds and 4ths) would be no more

than 4340 years old. Most likely the Antediluvians had remained in torpor

long enough for the mortal population to grow in numbers to support their

thirst for blood.

---

That was the IFFY answer, if you treat the Biblical Cain origin as myth, or as

an archetype story, and base the ages on other comments.....

The stats for some Methuselahs have them several thousand years older than the

traditional Biblical origin of Cain.


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In GC1:TLS, Japheth is listed as being embraced in 7225 BC. He would be over

9200 year old, as of the year 1999.

ToTB speaks of the Ravnos Antediluvian, and all true Antediluvians as being

over 10,000 years old.

---

However, the ages of two Modern "3rds" can be guessed.....

Tremere (and the Council of Seven) were transformed into vampires in 1022 AD.

He Diablerized Saulot in 1133 AD. As of the year 2000, he has been a vampire

for 978 years, and an Antediluvian for 867 of those years.

However, as a mage, Tremere may of lived an additional 300 years as a mortal,

before becoming a vampire. This is based on him being a character imported

>from the "Ars Magica" storyteller game.

Giovanni was about 55 years old when embraced in 1005 AD. He Diablerized

Cappadocius in 1444 AD. As of 2000, this makes him 1050 years old, 995 spent

as a vampire, and 556 of those vampire year as an Antediluvian.

*****************************************************************************

8.7) Who are the four Antediluvians hidden in the Shadowlands'

image of Nod?

If they are truly Antediluvians and not "something else".....

Their chambers, which reside within a labyrinth, are said to have many names

inscribed on the walls and seals. Three of the names used are Nergal, Ninmug,

and Loz. Some members of the True Black Hand (Tal'mahe'Ra) believe them to be


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the Toreador, Venture, and Nosferatu Antediluvians. The fourth is unknown,

but is rumored to be Malkav, others have made the assumption that it is Caine

himself.

Other members of the True Black Hand claim they appear in dreams:

- Loz, coming in nightmares as a fierce warrior, the dreamer

fearing his presence.

- Ninmug, causing prophesies to appear written in blood in the

books of the Library of Brujah.

- Nergal, said to be a beautiful woman, tells how to save the

world from destruction.

Some players have speculated that these beings may be dead Antediluvians, or

even the members of the 2nd generation. The Black Hand does call these beings

the 'Aralu', a Babylonian word for the dead. And the descriptions of them as

they appear in the dreams, do seem to match those of Enoch the Wise, Irad the

Strong, and Zillah the Beautiful.

*****************************************************************************

Section 9: Background - Sources & Lore

*****************************************************************************

9.0) What is the Book of Nod and who wrote it?

It is more or less the compiled history of vampire lore and prophecies. Some

of the stories going back to the First City. It was supposedly compiled by

Saulot from various sources and more ancient documents.

Now with that in mind..... there is no "official" Book of Nod nor any known

"complete" version. There are various versions floating around with different


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translations, stories, chronicles, recordings, prophecies and advice. Any

real Book of Nod, dated back to the First City or just the Second City, would

most likely take the form of tablets, scrolls, petroglyphs or may have been

known as the "Cave Paintings of Nod".

---

Whitewolf has published a "Book of Nod" for use as a prop for LARP, but it

also acts as a source of information for tabletop games. This version was

"compiled and translated by Aristotle deLaurent, Beckett, et al."

*****************************************************************************

9.1) What other books of lore or legend are there?

There are at least two more "prop" books of Lore written for VTM:

- The Revelations of the Dark Mother

- The Erciyes Fragments

---

The Revelations of the Dark Mother:

A "modern" wr

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