victoria · cluding new schools) .. 1,241 1,063 1,004 865 925 86 financial guarantees. government...

VICTORIA

PARLUVWENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

FORTY-THIRD PARLIAMENT

THIRD SESSION (1966-67)

1Jj~gi61ntiu~ arunueil nub 1Jj~gi51ntiu~ !\55~mbly

VOL. CCLXXXIV .• tS'

(From October 12, 1966 to November 17, 1966)

MELBOURNE: A. C. BROOKS. GOVERNMENT PRINTER.

Public Account [12 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Bona Vacantia) Bill. 973

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -This is a short Bill,· one of the many that the Government brings forward to occupy the time of the Parliament of Victoria. As honorable members are aware, for many years it has been provided that when a person dies intestate and without heirs, dependants or relatives the property that he or she leaves comes to the Crown. Under the old rule, such property was described as bona vacantia, and in the case of land it restituted to the Crown. Those two concepts existed for many years until we adopted the English legislative provision, which now appears in section 55 of the Administration and Probate Act. This section provides-

With regard to the estate of any person escheat to the Crown for want of heirs shall be abolished and in default of any person taking under the foregoing provisions the residuary estate shall belong to the Crown as bona vacantia and in lieu of any right of escheat which might formerly have existed.

In other words, land devolves upon the Crown as bona vacantia. From time to time, some honorable members complain about the use of Latin words in legislation and those words Which are retained for use by the legal profession. The expression bona vacantia is as much a part of the English language as any other expression. It has not been anglicized and retains its purity. It would not be easy to obtain a simple expression to take its place. As honorable members are aware, it means goods without a title.

Over the years, in cases where a person has died intestate and there have been illegitimate children, when the estate has been escheated to the Crown, and claims have been made that certain persons were morally more entitled to the property than the Crown, the matter has been given due consideration. Irrespective of the Government in office, if the Treasurer for the time being felt that the claim was genuine and deserving, it has been his practice on behalf of the Crown to waive all or any part of its right to the bona

Session 1966.-34

vacantia and to have a deed of assignment executed by the Governor in Council in favour of the person concerned. This is an admirable practice, but some doubt has been cast upon the procedure that has been followed.

The purpose of the Bill is to legalize the practice which has been followed for many years. In the olden days, there were many ways in which lands could be escheated to the Crown. If the fuedal Lords wanted some land, the owners were mysteriously exterminated. The second-reading notes on this measure mentioned treasure trove, waifs and strays and obviously the words were taken from Halsbury. From time immemorial, this practice of bona vacantia has been carried on by the Treasurer of the day, not only by Labor Governments but by all Governments.

The motion was agreed to.

This Bill was read a second time and committed, pro forma.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary) presented a message from His Excellency the Governor recommending that an appropriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

A resolution in accordance with the recommendation was passed in Committee and adopt~d by the House.

The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.

The clauses were agreed to, and the Bill was reported to the House without amendment and passed through its remaining stages.

ADJOURNMENT. Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).

I move-That the House, at its rising, adjourn

until Tuesday next, at half-past Three o'clock.


The House adjourned at 9.37 p.m .. until Tuesday, October, 18.

974: Horne Fina'fla [COUNCIL.] Ac.t.

ilegislatittt C!!uunti!. Tuesday, October 18, 1966.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack) took the chair at 4.55 p.m., and read the prayer.

MOTOR CAR (HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES CONTRIBUTIONS)

BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

PUBLIC ACCOUNT (BONA VACANTIA) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the

(I).

Australia and New Zealand Savings Bank Limited Ballarat Savings and Loan Society .. ..

Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

HOME FINANCE ACT.

GOVERNMENT GUARANTEES.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Housing-

Have any Government guarantees been sought for private home construction pursuant to section 16 of the Home Finance Act 1962; if so-(i) by whom; and (il) what were the respective amounts sought, granted, and ultimately taken up?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing).-The answer is-" Yes."

(ii).

Amount of Guarantees.

Sought. Granted. Taken Up.

S S $ .. 124,180 119,932 114,872 .. 59,424 43,922 43,922

Cheltenham Permanent Building Society .. . . 16,248 14,276 14,276 Mutual Permanent Building Society (Amalgamation of Apex

Permanent Building Society and Mutual Permanent Building Societies at Ballarat, Bendigo, and Geelong) .. 654,192 542,942 541,660

Oikos Co-operative Building Society . . . . University of Melbourne .. United Permanent Building Society .. Wimmera Mutual Permanent Building Society

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS

TEACHERS.

..

..

..

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What were the numbers of students taking science degrees on teaching studentships for 1963, 1964, 1965, and 1966, respectively?

(b) How does the Education Department intend to offset the serious decline and meet demands for science and mathematics teachers over the next decade?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answ'ers are-

(a) Number of studentship holders under-taking courses for B.Sc. Degree.-

1963 340 1964 430 1965 462 1966 442

.. 35,368 28,700 28,700

.. 2,088 2,088 2,088

.. 234,388 214,116 162,950 " 64,983 63,817 63,817

(b) To offset an actual or possible decline in the number of science and mathematics teachers, the Education Department must at present rely on-

(i) The recruitment of secondary school pupils who are studying mathematics and science and of science undergraduates or graduates.

(ii) Assisting teachers to improve their qualifications in mathematics and science.

(iii) The maximum possible use of the resources available at the Melbourne, Monash and La Trobe universities, at the Secondary and Monash Teachers' Colleges and at senior technical colleges.

PRIMARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS: ENROLMENTS: TEACHERS: CLASSROOMS. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH

(Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

During each of the calendar years 1962,

·Education . [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Department. 975

1963, 1964, 1965 and 1966 (to date)-(i) what was the total enrolment of pupils at State primary and secondary schools, respectively; (ii) how many teachers were employed in teaching dutiesi (iii) what were the total numbers of primary and secondary State schools, respectively, in

operation; and' (iv) what was the total number of class-rooms added?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of .Agriculture) .-The answer is-

CALENDAR YEAR.

- 1962. 1963. 1964. 1965. 1966.

(i) Total enrolment of pupils in State schools (as at 1st August)-

Primary .. .. .. 308,194 313,115 319,410 325,820 337,800 Secondary .. .. 109,384 116,887 124,035 131,506 136,500 Technical (Form I.-V.) .. 39,041 39,814 43,747 46,794 49,300

(ii) Teachers employed in teaching duties (excludes teachers employed on special staffs and teachers' colleges), 8.8 at 31st March-

Primary " .. .. 11,040 11,459 12,057 12,498 12,748 Secondary .. .. . . 5,478 6,104 6,504 7,264 7,740 Technical .. .. 2,481 2,866 3,204 3,467 3,991

NOTE.--:Teachers on leave, &c., are not included.

(iii) Total number of sC?hools-Primary .. .. . .. 1,941 1,940 1,936 1,932 1,928 Secondary .. .. . . 229 236 242 247 254 Technical (junior) .. .. 74 77 77 78 81

FINANCIAL YEAR.

- 1961-62. 1962-63. 1963-64. ~964-65. 1965-66. 1966-G7.

(iv) Additional class-rooms (in-cluding new schools) .. 1,241 1,063 1,004 865 925 86

FINANCIAL GUARANTEES. GOVERNMENT COMMITMENTS.

For the Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) , the Han. I. A. Swinburne asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) In respect of each body having loans outstanding which have been guaranteed by the Government of Victoria, what is-(i) the loan description or number; (ii) the interest rate and expiry date of each such loan; and (iii) the amount outstanding?

(b) Has a guarantee been given for the Melbourne Cultural Centre and the Lower Yarra Crossing; if so, what is the amount in each case?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are-

(a) In the light of discussion with the honorable member the following answer is given:-

(i) Loans issued by the following semi. Government bodies are guaranteed by the

Government. In the case of the Mel-

-

bourne and Metropolitan Board of Works and the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Trust, the guarantee applies only to loans issued on or after the 2nd May, 1962, and the 1st January, 1963, respectively.

Authority.

Gas and Fuel Corporation .. Geelong Harbor Trust Geelong Waterworks and

Sewerage Trust .. Grain Elevators Board Home Finance Trust Melbourne and Metropolitan

Board of Works Melbourne and Metropolitan

Loan liability outstanding at

30th June, 1966, subject to

Government guarantee.

$ 73,276,000

7,444,000

9,615,000 20,858,000 17,647,000

165,228,000

Tramways Board 22,396,000 Portland Harbor Trust 13,026,000 State Electricity Commission 560,260,000

(ii) Under the provisions of the Cooperation Act 1958, 209 guarantees for a total amount of $2,112,188 have been' given

976 Housing [COUNCIL.] Oommission.

to the 30th June, 1966, and the liability under such guarantees at that date was $1,053,565.

(iii) Under the provisions of the Cooperative Housing Societies Act 1958, 747 guarantees for a total amount of $179,925,000 have been given to 30th June, 1966, and the liability under such guarantee~ at that date was $108,218,993.

(b) No. If the honorable· member desires any

further information, I will arrange for it to be supplied.

HOUSING COMMISSION. HOMES: SALE UNDER PURCHASE

LEASE AGREEMENTS.


How many Housing Commission homes have been sold under purchase-lease agreements, and at what locations?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing).-The· answer is-

The aspect of the scheme applying specially to people living in the country areas has been further revised to provide simplicity of operation and to obviate the necessity for the purchaser to find a lump sum for the payment of rates, &c., at the end of the eighteen months qualifying period.

This will ensure that people moving into the country towns are given the opportunity of an eighteen months' period in which to make up their minds whether they wish to purchase without suffering any disadvantage.

The purchaser will occupy the home as a tenant during the interim, and at the end of the eighteen months if he desires to purchase, the selling price of the house will remain the same as if he had purchased it upon entering into occupation.

The scheme for the sale of houses on no deposit has resulted in 31 settled cases to date. The respective locations are as follows:-

Ashburton Roslyn Moorabbin South Jordanville East Reservoir Heidelberg .. Maidstone Broadmeadows East Preston Newlands Box Hill Sandringham Olympic Village

4 1 1 4 1 7 1 2 2 1 1 1 1

Corio Forest Port Melbourne Laverton North

1 1 1 1

Total 31

Another 23 applicants have applied for purchase of a house on no deposit. In approximately 43 per cent. of these cases, the Commission considered that the. applicants could find a deposit. In the remaining 57 per cent. of cases, the Commission considered that the applicants could not fund the payments involved from the incomes they were receiving at the time.

RENTAL HOMES: CAPACITY: LOCATION.


Of the 472 homes and 893 flats built by the Housing Commission and made available for rental during the period 1st July, 1965, to 30th June, 1966-(i) how many of these were of two-bedroom and three-bedroom capacity, respectively; (ii) how many were located within 30 miles of the General Post Office; and (iii) how many family units of two and three-bedroom capacity were lJ'ade available for rental in Ballarat, Bendigo, dIld Geelong, respectively?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing).-The answer is-

(i) Houses-' Two-bedroom Nil Three-bedroom 446

Flats-Two-bedroom 317 Three-bedroom 104

(ii) Houses 119 Flats 839

(iii) Three-bedroom-Ballarat Nil Bend~o 4 Geelong 3

Two-bedroom-Nil in each estate.

Practically the whole of the tenancies allocated in these towns were in respect of vacated units.

PUBLIC AUTHORITIES (CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL.

SOLICITOR-GENERAL'S OPINION.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Will he lay on the table of the Library the opinion given by the Solicitor-General to

. the Government in regard to the legality of the Public Authorities (Contributions) Bill; if not, why?

Railway Department. [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Department of A.griculture. 977

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is-

No. It is not the practice to lay before . Parliament the opinions of law officers of the Crown.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. EMPLOYEES: ROLLING-STOCK.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What was the total number of railway employees employed in each of the following grades as at the 30th June, 1952, and 30th June, 1966, respectively:-Engine drivers, firemen and/or observers, guards, shunters, workshop employees and permanent-way employees?

(b) What was the total number of steam locomotives, diesel locomotives, and rail motors, respectively, as at these dates?


As at 30th As at 30th June, 1952. June, 1966.

(a) Grade-Engine driver 776 822 Fireman 639 610 Guard 665 839 Shunter 638 609 Workshops employees 5,895 6,108 Permanent-way employees 3,591 3,220

(b) -Steam locomotives 626 181 Diesel electric locomotives 10 185 Diesel hydraulic locomo-

tives 30 Electric locomotives 12 35 Rail motors 58 49

RAINMAKING. CLOUD-SEEDING: COST.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) How many flights were made by the cloud-seeding aircraft which has been based at Nhill?

(b) Have these cloud-seeding operations been considered a success?

(c) Have the present operations ceased? (d) What is the total cost of these

operations? The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are-

(a) A total of 70 flights were made by the cloud-seeding aircraft based at Nhill from 2nd August, 1966, to 14th October,

1966, both dates inclusive. Actual cloudseeding operations were carried out on 23 of these flights, the remainder of the flights being made for essential reconnaissance of the area for the presence of clouds suitable for seeding.

(b) The operations are considered by my Department to have been a success. Many resolutions to this general effect have been passed by local councils and grower organizations and forwarded to me.

(c) No, the operations have not ceased. The aircraft will remain on standby at Nhill and will continue to seed all suitable clouds in the wheat-growing areas until the probable termination date of 31st October.

(d) It is anticipated that the total cost 'of the operations will amount to $14,000.

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. RESIGNATION OF PROFESSIONAL

OFFICERS.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) a~ked the Minister of Agriculture-

How many professional officers have resigned from the Department of Agriculture during the year 1965-66, what were their respective classifications, and what reasons were offered in each case?

The Hon. (Minister of

G. L. CHANDLER Agriculture) .-The

answer isClassification.

Agricultural Extension Officer, Class .. B ".

Assistant Agricultural Extension Officer, Class .. Cl ".

Assistant Agricultural Research Officer, Class "CI" (2).

Chemist, Class "B I ".

Reason. To join Commonwealth

Scientific and Industrial Research Organization.

To accept a research fellowship at a New South Wales University.

1. To join the Northern Territory Administration.

2. To pursue post-graduate studies at the Waite Agricultural Research Institute University of Adelaide.

To join Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization.

Chemist, Class "C". To travel overseas. Dairy Research Officer To join the Department of

(Bio Chemist), Class Agriculture, South " A ". Australia.

District Agricultural To enter I'rivate employment. Officer, Class" Bl ".

District Agricultural Officer, Class .. B ".

Lecturer in Agronomy, Class" C2".

Senior District Horticultural Officer, Class" AI".

Veterinary Officer, Class .. C2" (2).

To join a firm of agricultural consultants.

To Jom Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization.

To enter private practice as horticultural consultant.

1. To continue Post-iraduate studies.

2. To enter private practice.

Btate -Forests Loan [COUNCIL.] . A.pplication Bill. :--.~

STATE FORESTS LOAN APPLICATION BILL.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON '(Minister of Forests) .-1 move-

_ That this Bill be now read a second time.

Provision is made in this measure for the application of the sum of $2,800,000 from loan funds for the ensuing financial year. The actual amount which it is intended to spend in this period is $2,152,000, but the additional sum is required to cover the hiatus between the end of the fi.na~cial ~ear. and the passing of sImIlar legIslatIon at this time next year. The proposed expenditure is divided into eight sections. The first section relates to fire protection on which the sum of $480,000 wili be spent this financial year, although the allocation in the Bill is $600,000

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-You deal in thousands but other Ministers deal in millions.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.We cannot match the education vote this year, because the Government has given top priority to education. In recent years, the Government has been endeavouring to concentrate on the dsvelopment of new and more modern methods of fire fighting. It has been found that some of the methods used overseas are not applicable to Australia-for example smoke jumping. In the north-west of America, this technique is widely used and, although at one particular fire eleven jumpers lost their lives the au.thorities are -.still persevering' with thIS method. We believe this method of fire fighting would be even more dangerous in the eucalypt forests of Victoria, and therefore would not be justified.

Last year, experiments were conducted with the use of helicopters for fire fighting; their use was concentrated on reaching remote fires caused by lightning strikes late in the day. Those experiments proved so successful that it is intended to continue with them this year. The helicopters ue hired on a charter basis and are

k~pt at .the ready by the company wIth WhICh the Forests Commission has entered into arrangements.-

Again tbis year, the Commission will experiment with the use of water bombing techniques. Water bombing has been widely used overseas and it has been suggested that it should be used o~ the Australian scene; up to date, It has not been so used. I made a particular point of studying this technique in America and Canada. Canada contains some 500,000 lakes so that only a minute or two flying time is required to enable a plane to be refilled. Victoria has nothing like that number of lakes' those that exist would be fairly heavily snagged and this would make the type of refilling practised in Canada dangereus. ' This year in Victoria, therefore instead of using the lake refilling sys~ tern, reserve tanks with a capacity of approximately 1,000 gallons will be provided at two locations-one in the Snowy plains, north of Glenmaggie reservoir, and the other in the Benambra district, which are the two areas most affected by lightning strikes. Arrangements have been made for the hire of charter aircraft in those areas, and again we -will concentrate on attacking small fires that occur late in the day and which are usually caused by lightning strikes.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-How much water would be used on one fire?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The planes available at this stage have a drop of only 120 gallons. A Beaver aircraft, which was offered last week, has a capacity of 200 gallons. An aeroplane has not been designed solely for this purpose. One such plane is being built at Montreal at present and will have a capacity of 1,200 gallons, which will mean a drop of from 5 to 6 tons of water-a reasonable splash in anybody's language.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-How is it intended to drop the water?

State Forests Loan [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Application Bill. . .97~

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The term "water bomb" suggests that the water is dropped in some sort of plastic container. Actually, it is not. It is released in the same manner as a bomb; it. is not in any protective container. In the experiments conducted at Corryong a fortnight ago, it was found that a skilled pilot could be particularly accurate in dropping such water bombs. Admittedly, the experiments were conducted in open country, but the pilot came down to within 20 or 30 feet of the ground and was deadly accurate in the two drops that he demonstrated.

Dropping water bombs in mountainous regions could be far more hazardous and difficult, but it is believed that this type of fire fighting could be used effectively against small fires. It would be difficult to use this method on a large eucalypt fire; not only would the life of the pilot be endangered but a water bomb would be virtually a drop in the ocean.

In order to reduce evaporation, a phosphate chemical is used. This chemical is red in colour and can be seen dropping from the air. It reduces the degree of evaporation from the time the water leaves the plane until it hits the fire. As I said these drops will be in loads of 120 or 200 gallons-relatively small-but it is expected that a plane could be refilled very quickly-in a matter of perhaps ten, fifteen or twenty minutes, depending on how far it has to return to its base.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Does the plane drop the water all at once?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Yes. In Canada some planes carry out up to 70 drops in the one day. A plane is refilled with water in four seconds; it lands on a lake, picks up a load of water and takes off back to the fire.

The Hon. W. R. GARRET~.-Thp.y are all float planes.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.That is so; they are suited to the type of terrain and the type of lakes that exist all over Canada and in the north-west of the United States of America. If the experiments to be conducted this year are successful, this method could be utilized gene rally to combat eucalypt fires of the smaller variety. At this stage, the Commission would prefer to experiment with the smaller planes, as the capital cost of the larger ones would be up to $600,000 or $700,000 and would be beyond the financial resources of the Forests Commission.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The Commission could not purchase one out of this appropriation.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.~ No. However, discussions with the Air Force have taken place with a view to that Service or the Department of Civil Aviation, making use of the plane, and the Forests Commission and the Country Fire Authority having the use of it for a limited period during the summer, which arrangement would make the purchase of an aircraft economically justified.

The Han. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-Has the Commission considered the question of the number. of fires which have occurred and in which this type of bombing operation might have been advantageous?

The Han. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The great majority of the fires are detected and reported at an early stage, but many of them, especially on days of acute fire danger, develop from a small fire into a really dangerous one in a very short space of time.

The Han. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Lightning strikes can number hundreds in a day.

The Han. L. H. S. THOMPSON.At certain periods, some areas seem to be more affected than others by lightning strikes. These particu.ar areas are usually remote and difficult to reach. It is felt that if the COP! mission cQuld get a plane to the area,

980 State 'Forests Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill.

and follow it up with a helicopter team, this method of fire fighting could be worth its weight in gold.

Another novel method is the use of university students as fire fighters. Last year, the Commission had an eighteen-man team of students and the forest officers' appreciation of their work was so high that this year it is hoped to employ three eighteen-man teams. This form of work for students on vacation is proving exceedingly popular, and it has been difficult to sort out the applications. In November last year, the eighteen-man team was trained for a period at the Broadford camp and rendered excellent service during the fire season.

Another method worthy of note is the USie of the V-blade bulldozer. Forest officers have studied this equipment and believe that it could be as useful as 100 men armed with rakes. This has yet to be proved. The dozer is fitted on a trailer which gets close to the scene of the fire, and can quickly create a track wide enough for tankers and land rovers. It is much quicker in operation than the one-blade bulldozer because it is unnecessary to stop to remove material clinging to the blade. The Commission has purchased three tractors fitted with these blades at a cost of approximately $8,000 each.

An advance has been made in the field of wireless techniques. The Forests Commission radio laboratory has developed a new type of radio with a wider range than those previously used. The previous radios, when used in bad conditions, had a range of only 3 miles, whereas under similar conditions the new set has a range of 15 to 20 miles and can reach half-way across the State in good conditions. The new wireless is light and manreuvrable, and under fire-fighting conditions has proved extremely effective. This year the Forests Commission proposes to purchase 200 of these sets from Amalgamated Wireless (Australasia) Limited. It is also proposed to construct 122 miles' of firebreaks and

The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.

540 miles of jeep trails and to construct new dams. I have concentrated on the other, more novel methods of fire fighting which, although they may not entirely replace the old and well-proven methods, fully justify experimentation.

In recent years, increased emphasis has been placed on regenerating the State's hardwood forests. This year, 12,000 acres will be seeded by aircraft, as the Commission feels that this is twice as economical as seeding by hand, or with the use of horses, or by other techniques. However, it is impossible merely to drop hardwood seeds from an aircraft and hope they will grow because some treatment must first be given to the seed bed. The most effective method that has been evolved-one pioneered by Dr. Gross, who has a certain relationship to this House-is to start a fire following the falling of cull trees for the purpose of developing a bed of ashes in which the seeds tend to flourish. The growth is sometimes, fifteen-fold that of areas in which this treatment has not been carried out. At the present time, Dr. Gross is in Canada, where his explanation of this new method has aroused great interest.

The second main method of regenerating hardwood forests is by thinning and liberation treatments, and some 18,000 acres will be treated in this manner. The final method is one of coppice treatment where offshoots are removed, and 3,500 acres will be so treated. As a result of these three methods, 33,500 acres of the State's hardwood regions will be regenerated.

I t is proposed to construct 82 miles of extraction roads this year at a cost of $175,500. The rest of the money under this item will be used for the improvement of existing roads. Extraction roads are required to penetrate outlying areas in hardwood forests, and they are extensively used for fire-fighting purposes. The next item relates to plantations (softwoods and hardwoods). This

State Forests Loan [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] A.pplication B~ll. 981

year, the Government hopes that the planting rate for softwoods will reach 7,100 acres and that 1,000 acres of hardwoods will be planted.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Will the Government receive Commonwealth assistance?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Last year, 6,000 acres of softwoods were planted. This year 7,000 acres are planned, and it may be necessary to utilize some of the Commonwealth money for that increased planting.

Mr. Tripovich has asked an important question, and I should inform the House that negotiations are at present delayed because of the reactions of some States to the scheme proposed by the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth scheme was that $20,000 would be provided over five years; that there would be no repayments of capital or interest for the first ten years and that the loan would be repaid over twenty years. This proposal brought protests from the States that both the period free of capital and interest payments and the time for repayment were too short.

The Commonwealth then extended the period of the loan from 20 years to 35 years, but still left the period free of capital and interest payments at ten years. Until this question is decided, the Government does not know exactly when finance will be available under this scheme, although it does know that Victoria will get sufficient money to increase the plantings by 9,000 acres at the end of the five-year period. In other words, if 6,000 acres are planted in 1966, by the end of the five-year period, the State will be planting 15,000 acres. The aim of this scheme is to increase the over-all plantings throughout Australia from 43,000 acres per annum to 75,000 acres per annum, in order to make the nation relatively self-sufficient in timber requirements by the year 2000.

In this State's earlier planning, the Government estimated that it was necessary to plant 10,000 acres per

annum in Victoria--6,OOO acres by the Forests Commission-for a period of 34 years. The State reached 15,000 acres-5,000 acres in excess of this figure-last year, which was justified because of the estimates made of Australia's over-all needs. The areas most affected by the new planting will be in the Lower Glenelg district in the west of the State, by 1,500 acres, including 1,000 acres at Portland; Tallangatta by 1,250 acres, with which Mr. Swinburne is familiar; and Myrtleford by 700 acres. Other towns to benefi t from generous increases in softwood plantings during this financial year will be Bright, Beechworth, Mansfield, BenalIa, Beaufort-to name a few that come to mind.

Members may be interested to know that the over-all cost of plantings in Victoria is $100 to $120 per acre. Some other States previously claimed lower costs, but when applicationswere made for the Commonwealth grant, it was found that Western Australia submitted a plantation cost figure of $240 per acre. A lot could depend on what was included in this figure, but these apparently inflated costs were then submitted. It appears that Victoria is now planting at a cost which is lower than that of other States.

There are other points of special interest in relation to item 5-Forest officers' quarters, workshops and other buildings. Op.e particular item is the erection of a special lodge at Mount Buller for the warden, who in recent years has been living in the township at the foot of the mountain. There will also be three new officers' quarters erected at Mount Buller. The Government proposes to spend a fair proportion of the money under this item on the erection of shelters, washing facilities, toilets and other facilities at forest parks, to cater for visiting members of the public. Much of the $190,000 provided for the purchase of land will be utilized on acquiring land in the Dandenong Ranges for beautification and for the preservation of, forest

982 V erminand ' Noxious [COUNCIL.] Weeds (Financial) Bill.

parkland. This land is' zoned under a planning scheme developed by the: Town and Country Planning Board. Other portions of this money will be, used for the' purchase of land to consolidate the State's plantations and to extend the State's softwood resources. There is nothing of s'ubstance involved in item 7-Purchase of plant and machinery.

Under item 8, a sum of $50,000 has been set aside for grants under the State's farm forestry scheme, which is proceeding steadily. To date, the Commission has received 81 applications, sixteen of which have been approved, thirteen have been withdrawn or refused, and the remainder are in the process of investigation. These applications are very carefully examined to ensure that the applicants are located in suitable areas-that the soil in which they are planting is suitable and that there will be an eventual market for their products. Every effort is made to ensure that these people are embarking upon a worth-while scheme, and, if the Commission considers that they are not. a grant is not made.

Other details are contained in the notes that have been circulated to honorable members who are particularly interested in the subject. Copies can also be made available to other members who may require them. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the ,motion of the Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, October 25.

VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS (FINANCIAL) BILL.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health).-I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

Although this is a comparatively short Bill, which proposes the substitution in sub-section (1) of section 28 of the principal Act

an amount of $3,600,000 for the amount of $3,000,000, I' believe the House should be acquainted with the work that has been performed with the moneys set aside under the vermin and noxious weeds legislation. For that reason, I shall deal in some detail with that aspect.

Finance authorized under the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Act 1958, No. 6409, is utilized in providing plant, motor vehicles, equipment and stores, together with accommodation for these vital requirements for the destruction of vermin and the suppression of noxious weeds. Sub-section (1) of section 28 of the 1958 Act authorize the Treasurer to issue and apply out of the Loan Fund, amounts not exceeding in all the sum of £900,000, and by an amending Act of 1960, No. 6704, that amount, was increased by £300,000 to £1,200,000. Under a later amending Act of 1963, No. 7034, the amount of £1,200,000 was increased by a further £300,000 to make the total authority £1,500,000, which was converted to $3,000,000 by the Decimal Currency Act of 1965, No. 7315.

Expenditure by the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board under these existing and preceding financial Acts totalled $2,865,398 to the 30th June, 1966, leaving a balance of $134,602 which, it is estimated, will probably be exhausted by the end of April, 1967. This Bill makes provision to extend the financial authority under the principal Act by a further sum of $600,000 to make the total amount of $3,600,000. Annual expenditure from this source is currently of the order of $190,000 which, during the past two years, has averaged approximately as follows:-

Tractors and motor transport$80,000.

Spare parts, repairs, tires, tubes and batteries-$60,000.

Implements, power equipment and research equipment-$40,000.

Vermin and Noxious . [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Weeds (Financial) Bill. 98~

. Provision and maintenance of storage depots-$10,000.

This, of course, does not present the full picture of the amounts spent annually on vermin and noxious weeds administration, for an amount of over $2,750,000 from all sources was expended last year in this activity. The sources of funds are three-fold, being-

(1) From loan moneys from Public Works Loan Application Acts and from funds authorized pursuant to section 28 of the principal Act;

(2) from funds appropriated from revenue; and

(3) from moneys provided from primary industry funds for research into special projects which are nominated by the various primary industry organizations concerned.

Last year, these sources provided the following respective amounts:-

Loan moneys Funds appropriated

from revenue Primary industry

funds

Total

£ 1,718,000

1,076,500

77,000

2,871,500

Over 50 per cent. of this amountthat is, $1,500,000-is absorbed in the payment of wages to some 640 workmen employed throughout the State, and the following are some of the headings under which other expenditure is incurred:-

$680,000 for salaries and travelling allowances to Board members and inspectorial staff.

$124,000 for weedicides. $100,000 for replacement of

vehicles. $77,000 for research activities. $53,000 for running expenses for

tractors, cars and machinery. $50,000 for bonuses on destruction

of vermin.

$44,000 for carrots for· poisonjng campaigns.

$39,000 for subsidies for chemicals.

The Vermin and Noxious 'Weeds Destruction Board, which is in its seventh year of administration, continues to make progress throughout the State, and greater progress can be anticipated no'V that the Keith Turnbull Research Station for vermin and noxious weeds is a going concern. Although it may be a few years before this research station is operating at 100 per cent. capacity, valuable research work, which is of extreme interest to majOl branches of Victorian primary industry such as wheat, wool, grazing and dairying, is currently proceeding.

Good public relations continue through agencies such as the Central Advisory Council, district advisory committees and Board field days, backed by regular visits to rural centres by Board members. The~e links with the rural community have given the farmer a greater insight into the answers to his vermin and noxious weeds problems, but in turn have increased the demand for the wide range of equipment required to meet these various problems.

Being empowered, ~nder section' 27 of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Act, to provide equipment for hire, the Board has, since 1963, expanded its decentralized workshop system, and specially designed items of equipment not available from the trade are now fabricated at Horsham, Ouyen and Stratford workshops. During its short period of operation, the Horsham centre has turned out some 60 additional 200-gallon trailertype spray units, which are available for hire to landholders, and the fact that the demand from farmers for hire of the Board's spray equipment is growing rapidly is considered to be a most satisfactory position.

Another unit produced at Horsham is the 400-gallon tanker fitted with high-pressure pumping plant and, to date, there are eighteen of these

984 Vermin and Noxious [COUNCIL.] Weeds (Financial) Bill.

units in service throughout the State. The use of these 400-gallon tankers has resulted in increased primary production, and the Board anticipates that additional tankers of this capacity will form the core of a fleet of vehicles with which the Board could undertake the control of noxious weeds on roads throughout the State, as it is the view of the Government and the Board that this work, which is at present the responsibility of the adjoining landholder, should be taken over eventually by the State.

It is also well for honorable members to know that appropriate officers of the Forests Commission and the Country Fire Authority are acquainted with the location of these tanker units in case they should be required for fire-fighting purposes. As modern chemicals allow only for a narrow margin for error, it is highly important that the most efficient equipment available should be used in the application of these chemicals for effective vermin and weed control, and, in view of this necessity, during 1963, the Board commenced a programme for further improvement in the standard of equipment in each of its 140 depots throughout the State. This programme is being implemented on a group basis, and, up to the present, approximately half of the State has been covered. Because of the very nature of its statutory duty to control vermin and noxious weeds on Crown land, which to a large extent consists of rough country, it is essential that the most reliable equipment shall be always available for this work, as the Board's fleet of vehicles is subject to above-average wear and tear. These operations on Crown land must be maintained, if adjacent properties in private ownership are to be required to be similarly treated.

The improvement in the efficiency, standard and availability of the Board's equipment is followed by the need for better storage facilities, and this requirement is being met by

The Hon. V. O. Dickie.

the provision of substantial steelframed buildings in various country centres. During the last financial year, such buildings were erected at Ararat, Portland and Tallangatta. Provision was also made for their installation at Mansfield and Warragul, and it is anticipated that buildings of this nature will need to be provided at other centres in the near future.

It is interesting to note that 92 noxious weeds have been proclaimed for the non-metropolitan area of the State, the latest additions, as from September, 1965, being tree of heaven, African feathergrass, hawthorn, St. Peter's wort and soursob. Active steps have been taken and are being pursued by the Board to control these weeds in addition to maintainning work on the other 87 weeds on the list. The sole plant declared to be a noxious weed for the whole State, including the metropolitan area, is water hyacinth, and, no doubt, honorable members will have knowledge of this dangerous noxious weed.

An aerial survey was recently carried out over a large expanse of the Ovens, King and Murray rivers and it is pleasing to be able to report that no infestations of water hyacinth were detected. The Board is well aware of the efficiency of aerial surveys and of aerial spraying and baiting operations and, although considerable difficulty has been experienced recently in obtaining the services of aerial operators, the Board has a decided preference for aerial control work in many areasparticularly in the hill country of South Gippsland and the Otwayswhere ragwort and blackberry infestations are relatively inaccessible by other means.

Mention of these two noxious weeds brings to mind the generous gift of a fund by Mr. John F. Hughes to establish a farmers' competition in ragwort and blackberry control and general farm management. This

Racing (Totalizator [18 OCTOBER. 1966.] Percentages) Bill. 985

competition, which was instituted in 1965, provides prizes of $300, $200 and $100, and will run for two-year periods. The first competition, embracing the South Gippsland area, is to run from August, 1965, to August, 1967, and the second-covering the Otways area-will be for the period from August, 1966, to August, 1968. A third competition will revert to the South Gippsland district, and so on. The competition, which is similar in concept to the Hanslow Cup Competition, is known as the "John F. Hughes Award ".

In reverting to previous references to modern chemicals, it is emphasized that the Board has at all times been very conscious of the hazards associated with the use of pesticides, and every effort has been made to co-operate with the Pesticides Committee in its endeavours to formulate recommendations for reduction of the dangers associated with the misuse of these commodities. Mr. W. T. Parsons, Senior Weeds Research Officer, represented the Board on the Pesticides Committee set up by the Premier in August, 1964.

My description of some of the major undertakings of the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Destruction Board will serve to indicate to honorable members the necessity to continue the work of the Board in protecting the farmlands of this State. The Bill will provide some of the funds required to enable operations in this regard to be continued, and I commend it for the favourable consideration of the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Pro· vince), the debate was adjourned.


RACING (TOTALIZATOR PERCENTAGES) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 12) on the motion of the Hon. V. O. Dickie (Minister of Health) for the s'econd reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hoo.. G. J. O'CONNELL (Mel·' bourne Province).-This Bill could be termed a hardy annual or a consistent sessional measure. It is significant that during the middle of the spring racing carnival in Melbourne, a measure of this type should once again come before Parliament. The Government is proposing to increase the commission deducted from totalizators from 12! per cent. to 13 per cent. It has been said that the whole of the increased commIssIon deducted will auto· matically be devoted to hospitals and charities. The Labor Party has no objection to additional finance being provided for this purpose, particularly having regard to the present unsatisfactory financial situation of our hospitals and charities. However, the Government is again demonstrating its consistency in looking after certain sectional interests of the racing industry. By that, I mean that the racing clubs will still retain 8 per cent. of the money invested on totalizators and only 87 per cent. will remain for distribution to suc· cessful punters. In other words, once again punters will be called upon to pay the piper, so to speak.

It is estimated that the increased commission will yield approximately $f)00,000 in the present financial 'ear. When a similar Bill was before the House last year, the Minister stated that the increased percentage was estimated to yield $500,000 for hospital services. However, an examination of the figures relating to Government revenue received from the Commission-and I quote from the report of the Totalizator Agency Board for 1966-indicates that-

The State Government Commission of 4! per cent. of net turnover amounted to $5,369,071.

The figure for 1965 was $4,465,994. This represents an increase of $903,077. The report continues-

In addition, the Government receiv~d the remaining fractions after the calculation of dividends. This is estimated to be £1,030,000.

986 Rcicing (Totalizator. [COUNCIL.] Percentages) Bill.

Last year, this amount was $900,000, which represented an increase of $130,000. Again, the totalizator patrons are losing because the dividends are payable to the nearest 5 cents. The sum from off-course investments for the year ended 31 st July, 1966, amounted to $129,373,644, an increase of $17,723,694, or 15.87 per cent. This record sum can be attributed to the holding of more meetings and to the introduction of the totalizator at greyhound races. Last year, 622 meetings were held as compared with 544 meetings the previous year. It is anticipated that this year 700 meetings will be held, and, on present calculations, this will result in much more revenue. There are now 326 agencies compared with 283 agencies last year.

The distribution of available funds is significant. This year the racing clubs received $3,124,970; the trotting clubs received $762,472, and the greyhounds racing clubs obtained $85,213. This is a grand total of $3,972,655, and represents an increase of $329,175 over the previous year. That is not a mere bagatelle-in racing parlance it is " dough ".

The approach of the Government to the racing industry is peculiar; it is directed against the individual who supports the racing game, especially the small punter who places his investment on the off-course totalizator. What about the bookmakers or racing clubs? They are now better off than at any time in the history of racing, despite the 2 per cent. turnover tax. Most of the big bettors transact business with the bookmakers. The Government has not mentioned that it intends to obtain additional revenue for hospitals from this source.

During the debate on a similar Bill last year, the Minister stated that the racing clubs could not afford to pay one-half per cent. to hospitals and charities, from their commission for perhaps another five o~ Six years. I contend that all connected with

The Hon. G. J. O'Connell.

racing should be treated in the s'ame way and that the impost should not be placed only on the small investor who bets on the off -course totalizator.

I shall not weary honorable members by reading long extracts from the report of the Totalizator Agency Board, but the figures contained therein indicate that all clubs have' received increased sums, including small country bodies such as Manangatang Racing Club, Manna Turf Club, Bairnsdale Racing Club, Bacchus Marsh, St. Patrick's Racing Club and others. Surely the racing clubs should be asked to contribute more to this worthy cause. This measure is "having a go" only at the small people who keep the racing game going. In my opinion, the percentages should be reversed-8 per cent. should go to the hospitals and charities and 5 per cent. to racing. If that were done, my party would not oppose the Bill.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province).-I shall not cross swords with Mr. O'Connell on his knowledge of racing and its ancillary services. Possibly, members of my party have neglected their education a little in relation to racing. Our upbringing has been such that we have never had enough to inve'st on racing. This Bill proposes to extract a little e~tra money from the punter.

My party is interested in the end use of the money to be obtained by increasing the present 4! per cent. allocation to the hospitals. We do not argue whether it comes from the punter or from the racing clubs. At present, a considerable sum of money from the Totalizator Agency Board funds is being spent by racing clubs, and it could be a question whether some of it is being used in the right or wrong direction. However, these funds are rejuvenating Victorian racing clubs. The stage had been reached where the facilities and amenities of country racing clubs had deteriorated to the point where' rejuvenation was; becoming impossible

Racing (Totalizator [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Percentages) Bill. 987

and they were about to close down. Some of the small clubs mentioned by Mr. O'Connell had almost concluded that racing was no longer attractive. However, the 8 per cent. allocation enabled them to improve their amenities and to carryon.

The racing industry is financed by the punter, and if he is taxed too severely, if too much is taken from the pool, the scheme will break down. I agree with Mr. O'Connell, who is the champion of the small person who really runs the industry, that probably the charges could be reversed so that 8 per cent. could be allocated to hospitals and 5 per cent. to the racing clubs-although I am not authorized by my party to agree with that principle. Those figures were probably arrived at when initial representations were made by the racing clubs to the Government. I am concerned at the small amount made available to the Hospitals and Charities Commission. Over the years, gambling Bills or the conduct of raffles have been advertised under the guise of charity to cloak the sin of gambling; but amounts to the hospitals and charities have not been increased. A question was recently asked in this House how much money obtained from the Totalizator Agency Board was allocated to the Hospitals and Charities Commission, and the answer revealed a considerable allocation. How~ ever, the money originally granted from the Treasury was reduced .. It is of no use putting money on top of the pool and taking it out from underneath.

Surely there is a hospital crisis to~ay. Everyone is struggling to meet Increased costs and charges. There should be some undertaking from the Government that if this extra onehalf per cent. from the offcourse totalizator betting is made available to hospitals and charities, less will not come from the Treasury. These" gambling" measures have been passed for the purpose of increasing the allocations to the Hospitals and Charities Fund.

In the main what has happened is that the hospitals have been given this additional money, and the money they formerly received has been diverted into other fields. In my opinion, that is not being honest. If the public is told that a raffle is being run and the net proceeds will be added to the other funds available to that charity, then the person conducti~g the raffl~ must honour his obligations. In thIS case, the Government is conducting something similar to a raffle, and it is stated that the proceeds will go to charities and hospitals. Whilst that may be so, other money is diverted and used for other purposes.

Let us be honest with ourselves and examine the proportion of money originally allocated to hospitals and ensure that in the future they still receive the same proportion, plus the extra money that comes from the totalizator and Tattersall consultations. All that ·has happened under the present system is that money is added to the top of the pile and then taken from the bottom. Do not let us fool ourselves and the people. The additional one-half per cent. should be allocated to the hospitals and should be over and above the amount they already receive. The extra money should not be diverted to other purposes.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province).-This legislation reminds me of an old-time practice. When a child needed health correction,. he was forced to take a vile concoction known as liquorice powder and was bribed with a sweet. He was given the sweet to destroy the vile taste left by the powder. This is a taxation Bill, and it is a sweet to hospitals and charities. It seems that whenever a Government is faced with the responsibility of raising more money by taxation-that is possibly the major source of Government revenue-it looks first at the sport of kings, as it is termed, and asks how much more can be taken from racing.

988 Racing (Totalizator [COUNCIL.] Percentages) Bill.

In the published report of the annual meeting of the Victoria Racing Club, mention was made of the amount of taxation being paid out of the club's revenue. In my opinion, the club pays no direct taxation; it is paid by the persons who patronize the racecourses and who use the various methods available for betting. This situation applies whether it is horse-racing, trotting, or greyhound racing. Every time an approach is made to these sports for more money, it is at the expense of the person who patronizes the off-course or the on-course totalizator.

In days gone by, the public were told that one of the faults of the starting-price bookmaker was that he evaded taxation, and tremendous numbers of police had to be employed to destroy him. When the Totalizator Agency Board opened agency offices throughout the suburbs and country, the starting-price bookmaker almost went out of existence, and no extra effort was required by members of the Police Force. However, the same old idea is being adopted ; money is being taken from the gambling section of the community, whether it be per medium of Tattersall consultations, greyhound racing, trotting or galloping events. Now it is proposed to take more money from racing patrons, and the amount of money going to the racing clubs is not being reduced.

I agree with Mr. Swinburne that the channelling of money to these clubs has made it possible for considerable improvements to be effected at country racecourses for the benefit of patrons and that the amenities at country courses should be comparable with those provided in the metropolitan area. However, the principal racing clubs in the metropolitan area are interested only in how much money they can get and how they can use it to provide amenities for their members. They are not interested in the general public.

The Hon. Archibald Todd.

I ask the Government-I shall not challenge it as Mr. O'Connell didto tackle the financing of hospitals and charities in an entirely different manner and not rely on the gamblers in the community to keep these important institutions solvent. Hospitals, and the charities associated with them, are the responsibility of every individual in this State, and, irrespective of whether or not the Government approves of ihe principles of socialism, these institutions should be maintained by imposing a levy on the people of the State as a whole, and the money so received should be used in such a manner that any person who requires hospitalization will not be faced with enormous bills. In addition, the Government should ensure that there will be a bed available for such person at a public hospital. In other words, he should not be forced into a position where he is in debt up to his neck.

I also agree with Mr. Swinburne's remarks in regard to the Government putting this additional money on the top of the pile and taking some from the bottom. When Tattersall consultations was established in this State, everybody associated with hospitals and other similar organizations, such as convalescent homes and old people's homes, thought substantially more money would be available for this purpose. However, that was only a myth because, when the hospitals received this money, they lost what they formerly received from another source, and they were no better· off. An entirely different approach to the financing of hospitals is needed.

The Government should ask itself how much longer this extra money can be taken from people who like to risk a few dollars on the result of a contest of speed between animals. This is my challenge to the Government = I ask it to adopt a proper basis for the financing of hospitals in accordance with its responsibilities. If hospitals and associated charities are to be removed from the field of


insolvency, the people of the State have to bear the cost on an equitable basis. It is of no use the Government saying that there are hospital benefits associations and friendly societies through which people can insure against hospital costs. Many people, becallse of the paucity of their incomes, are unable or unwilling to make further sacrifices to insure against such charges. Therefore, it is the Government's responsibility to institute a scheme which will spread the cost evenly throughout the community and will ensure that hospitals and charities will not depend on the largesse of the gamblers of the community. It is high time that the Government looked elsewhere than to the people who participate in the sport of kings and other sporting events with which gambling is associated for money with which to finance hospitals.

I can remember when this Government listened to the wails of certain people, and discontinued entertainments tax, but it had to raise an equivalent sum of money from SOlne other source. Of course, that money came from people who patronize racecourses, and as the majority of the residents of this State are not in that category the burden was not spread equitably. That kind of thinking should be discarded, and the Government should face up to the fact that public hospitals depend on the goodwill of the people in order to remain solvent. It is time that the element of goodwill was removed.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Didn't the Cain Government say that Tattersall consultations would overcome all of these problems?

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.That is the type of remark I do not accept. Just because some other Government did something some years ago does not mean that similar action would be right to-day. Some years ago, a member of the Liberal Party described a certain foodstuff as a luxury for the working class, but we do not drag that up to-day.

I ask the Government not to resort to the idea that because something was done years ago it is right to do it to-day. The Government should face up to the responsibilities of to-day and not be influenced by what the Cain Government, the Argyle Government, or any other Government did. It needs to put hospital financing on a proper basis, so as to ensure that no individual in the community will be denied access to a hospital or saddled with heavy charges.

The sitting was suspended at 6.29 p.m. until 7.52 p.m.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-If ever a confidence trick has been played on the people of this State, it has been the handling of hospital finance over the years. I support Mr. Swinburne's remarks and criticism of this Administration. During the debate on the Tattersall Consultations Bill which resulted in the consultation being established in Victoria, in what was my maiden speech in this House, on the 4th November, 1953, as reported at page 1834 of volume 242 of Hansard, I said- '

I wonder whether, after the introduction of the lottery, the Government will continue to grant to the Hospitals and Charities Commission the equivalent of the allocations now being made from Consolidated Revenue for hospitalization. It is very doubtful.

If the House will forgive me for saying so, they were prophetic words. The same thing has happened in relation to the off-course totalizator. As contributions to the Commission from Tattersall's and the off-course totalizator have increased, so the contribution from Consolidated Revenue has decreased.

It is a very sorry state when the sick and needy have to rely more and more on people buying tickets in Tattersall's and indulging in betting on the racecourse and on the offcourse totalizator. The figures prove that the introduction of Tattersall's and the off-course totalizator has only relieved Consolidated Revenue of its responsibility to support the


Hospitals and Charities Commission. As Mr. Swinburne put it, while the contributions from Tattersall's and the off-course totalizator have been added at the top, the contributions from Consolidated Revenue have been taken from the bottom.

This is· a sad state of affairs, particularly when the cost of hospitalization is .so high that many people cannot afford to pay it. Since the last increase in hospital charges, although advised to enter hospital by doctors, people are refusing to do so because they fear they will not be able to meet the cost. In 1955-56, the Government grant represented 63 per cent. of the total income of our hospitals. According to the latest available figures, in 1964-65 it represented only 48.4 per cent., a drop of 14.8 per cent. In 1959-60 the hospitals received-or should I say the Consolidated Revenue benefited by, because it is only that fund which benefits-from the totalizator, the sum of £884,435. In 1960-61, the amount rose to £956,807. In 1961-62, it was £1,386,911. By 1964-65, the amount had reached £3,338,780. In 1959-60, the amount received by the Hospitals and Charities Fund from Tattersall's was £2,538,860, and in 1960-61, it was £3,134,202. The amount rose a little each year until, by 1964-65, it had reached £3,213,608.

It can be seen that the revenue from those sources has risen during the years Tattersall's and the offcourse totalizator have been operating. On the other hand, the grants from Consolidated Revenue have declined in the same proportion, and now hospital finances are in a poor state. Where they will drift to, nobody knows. What has happened is an indictment of the Government.

In 1953, when the Bill which resulted in the introduction of Tattersall consultations to this State was before the House, those honorable members now on the Government benches sat in opposition with members of the Country Party. The very revered Sir James Kennedy, who then led the Liberal Party in this House,

The Han. A. K. Bradbury.

was one who vigorously opposed the introduction of Tattersall's to Victoria. Members of the Liberal Party said that the Government was pulling the wool over the eyes of the people. But the state of affairs then brought about has been perpetuated. If we are genuinely to assist the sick and needy, the Government must approach the problem more realistically and should not continue what is really a confidence trick.

All that this Bill does, and all that previous measures on this subject have done, is to help Consolidated Revenue and other Government Departments at the expense of hospitals. I do not think that is good enough. Members of the Country Party have no option but to support this Bill. We are bound to support whatever little assistance appears to be given to the sick and needy of Victoria. However, I appeal to the Government to adopt a long-range plan to assist hospitals, similar to that which operated in 1953, and to see that the grant for hospitals from Consolidated Revenue is maintained in proportion to the cost of hospitalization.

If the hospital committees are to overcome their present problems, they must be given every assistance. The men and women who comprise those committees are rendering a magnificent voluntary service, and they should be given every encouragement instead of a confidence trick being put over them. It is said that by taking a further one-half per cent. from totalizator investments the finances granted to hospitals will be considerably increased. However, the hospitals cannot possibly benefit from the passage of this Bill unless the Government continues to match its contribution from Consolidated Revenue.

The House divided on the motion (the Hon. R. W. Mack in the chair)-

Ayes 24 Noes 9

Majority for the motion 15


Mr. Bradbury Mr. Byrne Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Clarke Mr. Dickie Mr. Feltham Mr. Garrett Mr Gawith Mr. Gleeson Mr. Granter Mr. Grigg

Mr. Cathie Mr. Elliot Mr. Galbally Mr. Knight Mr. Merrifield

The Bill was and committed.

AYES.

Mr. Gross Mr. Hamer Mr. Hewson Mr. Hunt Mr. May Mr. Nicol Mr. Snider Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Mansell Mr. Thorn.

NOES.

Mr. O'Connell Mr. Todd.

Tellers: Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

read a second

Clause 1 was agreed to.

time

Clause 2 (Totalizator percentages).

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-A number of matters have been raised in the discussion on this Bill. Some pertained strictly to the measure, but others related to the ambit of hospital finance and the effect that the proposed increase will have on the over-all Treasury vote to the Hospitals and Charities Fund.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-That is very important.

The Hon.· V. O. DICKIE.-That is so. It is proposed that an extra onehalf per cent. shall be taken from the investing public. The increase is from 12-!- per cent. to 13 per cent., .so that instead of 87! per cent. of Investments being paid in dividends, in future only 87 per cent. will be available. I am sure that Mr. O'Connell, who handled this Bill on behalf of the Opposition, will agree that there is a most interesting link between the dividend that the totalizator pays, whether on-course or off-course, as a double compared with the odds that the bookmaker is in fact paying and what he would pay if the odds were multiplied, which is the normal procedure. I believe that since the off-course totalizator has been in operation, the balance has been in favour of the

totalizator. If a punter had made all his investments on the off-course totalizator, or on the on-course totalizator, and if he had been fortunate enough to back winners he would have been a little in front as compared with investments with a bookmaker. Therefore, I believe that a margin can be taken f~om t~e totalizator investments, WhICh wI11 still leave the totalizator investor in a more favourable position than if he placed his bets with a bookmaker.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLy.-Of course, the Minister knows a lot about this subject!

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I do not mind admitting that I do. I think honorable members shOUld know these facts, because these are the reasons that the Treasury considered that an additional one-half per cent could be taken from the punting public. Last Saturday, the off-course double was on the Caulfield Cup and the last race on the programme, and it paid 595 to 1; the dividend for a 50 cent investment was $292.95. If a punter had taken that same investment on-course with a bookmaker as a multiple double--

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-But that cannot be done.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-It could be done for many years. However, if the punter invested with a bookmaker on the first leg and then invested all-up on the second leg-and that can be done-he would have received the equivalent of 300 to 1, because the first winner, Galilee~ started at 14 to 1 and the winner of the last race, Castle Command, started at 20 to 1. The person who invested on Galilee on the totalizator received 18 to 1, and the best price offered by the bookmakers was 14 or 15 to 1. I am pointing out that there is a margin in the totalizator dividends that permits an additional percentage to be taken out of the pool so that the investor is enab.le? to receive a better over-all diVIdend than he would receive from


the bookmaker. I am sure that those who are familiar with racing will appreciate that the 87 per cent. that will be available for distribution in dividends will allow the totalizator to pay, overall, a better return to the punter than he would receive from a bookmaker.

The Hon. D. G. ELUOT.-Do you think bookmakers opera te on a greater percentage of profit than the totalizator?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I contend that overall the punter is far better off by investing on the totalizator; he gets much better odds. The whole crux of the Bill is how it will affect totalizator punters. I believe it will still leave them in front of those who invest with bookmakers.

I turn now to consider the problems associated with the payment of the 5 per cent. into the Hospitals and Charities Fund. Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Bradbury offered the criticism that, while a little more money is paid in at the top, the Treasury takes some more off the bottom. Therefore, they asserted, the public receives less. Mr. Bradbury said that over the years there had been a progressive drop in the Government's contribution to hospital finances. I point out that there has been an increase in the combined Commonwealth-State figures. The Commonwealth has come into the picture to a greater extent over the past five or six years. There has been a progressive drop on the part of the State's contribution, but it has been replaced by an increased contribution from the Commonwealth, and this has covered part of the burden which was previously borne by the State. To-day, the combined State and Commonwealth contribution is almost 70 per cent. of the total amount. This is far in excess of what the State previously contributed, as shown in the figure quoted by Mr. Bradbury, which was about 60 per cent.

The State is continually trying to unload some of its responsibilities in hospital finance on to the Common-

wealth, and rightly so. Only this year, the Commonwealth agreed to increase the daily payment on behalf of pensioners from $3.60 a day to $5 commencing the 1st January next. That additional Commonwealth contribution of $1.40 a day will come off the State's contribution. Of course, the State has to provide finance for all the other aspects of its administration. Honorable members should not pick out the State, so to speak, and say that it is contributing less to the hospital field. The Government contribution to hospital finances is increaSing annually. At present, it is 68.2 per cent., made up of 48.4 per cent. provided by the State, 8.6 per cent. provided by the Commonwealth, and 11.2 per cent. which is the Commonwealth's contribution to the hospital benefits scheme. If the State can induce the Commonwealth to come even further into the picture such as by subsidizing pensioners, the State's contribution may drop to 36 per cent., but if the over-all Government contribution goes up to 70 per cent., a worthy objective will be reached.

Although the payments into the Hospitals and Charities Fund from the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall's are increasing, the Government's contribution is increasing at a much greater rate. I have some figures which may be of interest to the Committee. In 1964, the combined Totalizator Agency BoardTattersall's payment into the fund was $11,957,766; in 1965, it was $13,394,776; but the over-all increased payment into the Hospitals and Charities Fund was in excess of $3,000,000 so far as the Treasury was concerned. In 1964, the Treasury contribution to the fund was $30,257,766; and in 1965, it was $33,024,776. In 1966, the contribution jumped to $38,000,000, while the increase in the Totalizator Agency Board-Tattersall's contribution was less than $500,000. This year, the Treasury vote is $42,400,000 -an increase of $4,400,000. The increase from the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall's will not be


within cooee of that figure. Of course, payments from the Totalizator Agency Board and from Tattersall's comprise part of the $42,400,000.

Many people throughout the State have said to me and have stated in letters to the press that they believed the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall's would be the be all and end all in this field and would provide finance for all our hospital services. The combined contribution trom these sources is between $15,000,000 and $16,000,000. This does not cover the Mental Health Authority, which I include with hospitals as part of the problem of health and hospital administration. To-day, less than 30 per cent. of hospital requirements is being obtained from Tattersall's and the Totalizator Agency Board. The State's hospital services are costing almost $2,000,000 a week, or $100,000,000 a year. The State contributes nearly 50 per cent., and the people pay about $45,000,000 in fees. But this is only part of what is required. The money is put into a !eparate fund in the Treasury and is earmarked for specific purposes within our hospital field. There is no doubt about the money being there. It is not lost in any way.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-We are not questioning that it is taken out, but the State contribution has not continued to be maintained in proportion.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I would possibly agree with that statement, but the contribution that the Treasury is making each year is far in excess of the increased contribution by the Totalizator Agency Board and Tattersall's. There seems to be an idea that, as the Totalizator Agency Board percentage is increased, the Treasury contribution is decreased, but this is not so. There is still an increase in the Government contribution.

This is a Budget Bill, which will assist in solving the problem of balancing the Budget. Honorable

members may query this source of revenue, but it is still worth $16,000,000. Although Mr. Bradbury questions this proposal, only the other night he opposed a 3 per cent. impost on certain public utilities. The Government has to find the money somewhere. I thought I should at least put the Government's view on this matter. The one-half per cent. that this Bill deals with represents another $600,000 towards balancing the State's Budget, and this is a valuable contribution to the over-all problem.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province).-I do not want it to be inferred that my colleagues and I assert that money was not being granted for hospital purposes. As I clearly stated, the State has not continued to contribute in the same proportion as it did in earlier years. I am aware that no one is more interested in our hospitals than the Minister of Health. However the honorable gentleman must admit that over the past couple of years the hospital finances of this State have become a chronic problem both for himself and for the hospital committees of management. These people work in an honorary capacity and endeavour to run our hospitals.

Time and again, the Minister and Dr. Lindell have stated that the hospitals do not belong to the Government, that they belong to the people. This is the system in operation. All of our hospitals have become more financially embarrassed as they have tried to provide the services required by the people. As I have repeatedly said, I do not believe the Government should introduce a Bill such as this, and suggest that the revenue to be derived from its passage is to be an added contribution to hospital finances, if the Treasury contribution is to be reduced.

The Minister mentioned that finance is provided by the Commonwealth. Country Party members agree that the Commonwealth should contribute, but we consider


that the State should maintain its rate of contribution also. If, when Tattersall's was introduced into Victoria in the year 1952-53, the State could afford to pay 64 per cent. of the hospital requirements, surely it can afford to do so now.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-Do you think the Government should still contribute the same percentage to education as it did then?

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.Education should be considered in its proper perspective. I do not agree with Mr. Campbell if he suggests that it is more important to spend money on education than on hospitals. One of our greatest responsibilities is to provide for the sick and needy. Surely we have not lost our charitable outlook. No one is more seised of the importance of education than I am, but our charitable organizations should not be crucified in order that more money may be provided for education.

The reason why the Minister and hospital committees of management throughout the State have such a problem is the number of people who can ill afford to pay for hospitalization. As Mr. Todd said earlier, their income is not sufficient to enable them to contribute for hospital benefits over and above their current commitments. Such people are not in a position to pay large hospital fees if they find themselves in dire straits and in need of medical care. This is what is causing the crisis. If the Commonwealth Government raises its contribution under the system which the Minister has described. the State contribution will be gradually reduced. I do not agree with that psychology. Any increases from the Commonwealth to assist needy people should be added to the State's contribution; the State's contribution should not be decreased because a little more money is received from the Totalizator Agency Board or from Tattersall's. One of the State's greatest responsibilities is to provide some assistance

to the needy. I believe such assist:. ance ,has a higher priority than education.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) .-1 was interested in the Minister's smoke-screen in relation to the Government's justifica~ tion for taking an extra one-half' per cent. from the punters. The honorable gentleman stated that the punters could well afford it. He also mentioned bookmakers. I do not intend to go into the pros and cons of this subject, because the Minister realizes that the bookmakers' turnov'er tax is levied on a percentage basis, and that subject is not within the ambit' of 'this Bill.

The Minister stated also-quite wrongly-that a punter gets a better deal from the totalizator than from the bookmaker. I point out that the person who invests on the off-course totalizator does not know what odds he will receive. Every week one sees examples of off-course doublesespecially in the country-paying $9 or $10 although both horses start. at 3 to 1 or 4 to 1.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I was quoting b09kmakers' starting-priCe odds. '

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL.-The totalizator dividend depends on the pool. The Minister should not attempt to pull the wool over my eyes. Members on this side of the Chamber do not oppose the payment of an extra one-half per cent. to the Hospitals and Charities Fund, but we do oppose the manner in which it is proposed in this Bill. We believe the racing industry generally should be taxed; if that were done members of our party would be satisfied. I informed the Minister earlier that the payments should be reversed-8 per cent. should go to the Hospitals and Charities Fund and 5 per cent. to the racing clubs. Members of our party would support such a proposal.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province).-When the Minister was giving his lengthy


explanation of the relative merits of bookmakers and the totalizator, he reminded me of a small boy wandering in the maze at the Ballarat gardens. The Minister did not seem to know just where he was going. All he did was to quote a mass of figures. It is time that the Government thought of more constructive methods of raising money by taxation than by continually taxing the gamblirig element in the community.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Do you have any form of taxation in mind?

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-It is not my business to tell the Government how to suck eggs; it is the Government's job to devise ways and means, of which there are plenty still unexplored. I pointed out to the Minister earlier that members of our party do not believe the hospitals of this State should depend on the patronage of the gambling community to pay their way. Each of the great metropolitan hospitals has ,a large overdraft. The Geelong and District Hospital was threatened by its bankers that it would not receive any more financial accommodation. Other country hospitals also have large overdrafts.

Hospitals and associated charities should not have to depend on the finances obtained from the people who invest money on the totalizator or who bet with bookmakers. The Government should implement a scheme to cover the hospitalization needs of the people of this State and also to ensure that hospitals will be able to finish the financial year " in the black " instead of "in the red." There are many people in the community who escape their obligations so far as hospital finances are concerned. I should think it would be true to say that the wife of almost every member in this Chamber is interested in a local charitable organization. My wife is interested in auxiliaries in the City of Port Melbourne. For many years, the organization of which I am president

joined in the "Mjss Teenage" competition in order to raise money to build the Henry Pride and other wings of the Royal Women's Hospital. A sum of almost $2,000,000 has been raised through the "Miss Teenage" of Victoria competition. The Government has had to contribute a matching grant. The Minister did not inform us how much of the sum of $42,000,000 was being expended in capital construction.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Every cent is going to maintenance; it has nothing to do with any capital funds.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.The Government should devise a better method to protect the health of the community, by making the financial structure of the hospitals secure for all time instead of depending on a tax levied on the gambling element in the community.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-The Committee is indebted to the Minister for his erudite knowledge and understanding of racing in this State; it is a privilege to have been able to listen to him. Another place is favoured with Ministers who are very much closer to the sport than are some of us in this Chamber. It is a good thing that the Minister of Health-I almost called him the " Minister of Racing ", and if there ever was a Minister of racing in this State Mr. Dickie would be my first choice-is interested in racing. The honorable gentleman sounded like Sir Henry Bolte in 1960 just before the credit squeeze when everything in the community was a "gilt-edged investment". To-night, the Minister has said that the poor punters' money that goes on the totalizator is an "investment ".

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Of course it is.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-Is that the kind of investment we are going to induce our citizens to make in the future?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-They do it voluntarily.

996 Racing (Totalizator . [COUNCIL.] Percentages) Bill.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Of course they do, and God bless them.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Would you wipe out all the racecourses?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Not at all. I am informed that it is an investment if a person puts his money on the totalizator and gets it back. In another context, I have heard Ministers of the Crown describe all gambling as "a tax on fools".

To come to the more serious aspects of this debate, some people enjoy racing, and I understand that they regard it as the sport of kings. Other people enjoy football, golf and so on. Does the Minister suggest that in the future the care of the aged is to be the responsibility of the punters? The person who has never been on a racecourse in his life contributes nothing to the hospitals. Is it right that the State's programme of looking after the sick and the aged should be geared to racing in the community?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Racing contributes one-sixth of the actual expenditure.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-But is it fair? Is the State facing up to its responsibilities to provide the necessary medical services? That is where this Government is all astray. The Minister may care to answer this question: Are the attendances on the courses, whether in the city or in the country, increasing as the population increases, or is the following that actually goes to the course declining?

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Like the Treasury grant, it is going down.

The Hon. J. W. GAL BALL Y.These matters should be given consideration, instead of the Minister informing us what the bookmaker or someone else pays.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-That is an important factor so far as this measure is concerned.

The Hon. J. W. GAL BALL Y.-Of course it is, to the people who go to the races, but in the future we must

do far more for the hospitals than give them another one-half per cent. The hospitals in this State are in a parlous situation. Many old persons are suffering in a way that should not be inflicted on any people. The sign of civilization is said to be the care that it shows for its old people. . In primitive times, when old people could not keep up with the tribe, they simply fell behind and died. That is nearly what is happening in Victoria to-day.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-It is so far as old people are concerned in relation to hospitalization.

The Hon. J.·W. GALBALLY.-That is so. This matter may be regarded by the Minister somewhat flippantly, but there are deeper issues involved.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Have I indicated flippancy in anything that I have said in this debate?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The Minister's whole attitude to racing indicates that.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The whole Bill revolves around racing; it amends the Racing Act. In view of the fact that I have spoken of racing, I am accused of being flippant.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The attitude is that the Minister and some of his colleagues know far more than the general run of punters, and whereas the punters can lose their money the Minister and his colleagues have inside knowledge and are protected. That js the kind of flippancy and privilege to which I referred.

The clause was agreed to.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

STATE ACCIDENT INSURANCE OFFICE LAND BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture), was read a first time.

Lower Yarra Crossing [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] ·A·utltority (Guarantee) Bill. 997

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES (LIABILITY OF PATIENTS) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

LOWER YARRA CROSSING AUTHORITY (GUARANTEE) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 12) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province).-This Bill appears to be a natural follow-up to the original Act under which the Lower Yarra Crossing Authority was established and empowered to proceed with the construction of a bridge over the lower reaches of the Yarra. The Authority endeavoured to raise the finance necessary to pay for the construction of the crossing. When the original Bill was before this House, members of the Labor Party asked how this crossing was to be financed and what approach the Authority would make to raise the large amount of money that would be involved in the building of the bridge.

Honorable members desired to know what rate of interest would be offered by the people who constituted the Lower Yarra Crossing Authority when they tried to raise the necessary funds. An assurance was sought that the Authority would not offer higher rates of interest than those offered by the public utilities, and that it would not operate on the money market to the detriment of public utilities such as the State Electricity Commission, the Gas and Fuel Corporation, the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of

Works, or the Melbourne Harbor Trust. On that occasion, assurances were given by the Government that a careful watch would be kept on this particular aspect, and that no exorbitant rates of interest would be offered by the Authority.

As the Minister said in his secondreading speech, very few investors would be prepared to lend money without some form of guarantee. Investors might feel that the members of the Authority were not professional bridge builders but a band of people who desired, mainly from self-interest, to construct a bridge; that the fate that befell the Kings Bridge, which was built by private enterprise, could befall this crossing, and that investors would be left "holding the bag" so far as their investments were concerned. Consequently, the Government is prepared to guarantee the money that will be raised by the Authority. The Labor Party offers no objection to that principle because, after all, the investor must be protected, and the Authority, which has had the fortitude to enter into the construction field and will require to borrow substantial sums of money, should be assured that, if things do not work out as well as it expects, there will be some guarantee by the Government to meet the original cost. It may be some years before the bridge is completed and is producing sufficient revenue to enable the Authority to meet portion of the capital cost, or to build up a reserve fund to discharge its loan liability, or to create a fund to meet interest payments.

The proposal in the Bill is that the Government shall act as guarantor in the same manner as it has done for many other organizations in the community, some of which have been semi-Government authorities. The Government has guaranteed loans raised by the Portland Harbor Trust, the Geelong Harbor Trust, and many other bodies connected with the Government of this State.

998 , Lower Yarra Crossing [COUNCIL.] Authority (Guarantee) Bill.

The entrusting of the building of this bridge to a non-profit-making company is something new, and it seems fairly reasonable that the Government should be prepared to guarantee this money.

It must be conceded that the Authority has done reasonably well in forward planning for the bridge. True to the promise of the Government, a liaison committee, comprising representatives from the various municipalities adjoining the site of the proposed crossing, was formed. The Authority has had one or two discussions with the liaison committee, and these discussions have brought the committee up to date on the progress being made with the planning. At the moment, I believe that planning is some months ahead of schedule, and it is hoped that the progress will continue in this way until the bridge is opened.

When the Minister was making his second-reading speech, I asked him, by interjection, whether the problem of Salmon-street, Port Melbourne, had been resolved, and he replied that I would probably be able to tell the House something about it when I made my speech on the Bill. The problem of Salmon-street is one that concerns the municipality in which I reside, and one or two very large organizations whose business premises are on the perimeter of Salmon-street. A notable one is the Kraft foods organization, whose plant represents an investment of up to $10,000,000, and whose facilities could be affected by bad transport planning at the intersection of the bridge and highway 9, I think it is, going to Fisherman's Bend. This is one of the problems about which the industries at this location are concerned, and, having in mind the capital investment of those industries, they should be given some early assurance as to what will happen to Salmon-street in this area.

This is a new attempt by the Government to pass on its obligations to a private enterprise organization,

The Hon. Archibald Todd.

and now that the Authority is under way, quite naturally, every member of this House will wish it well and hope that it will carry through its contract successfully, and that the Government at no 'stage will be forced to meet the guarantee. If the Government has to meet the guarantee, it will not be in a position to complain because the bridge will ultimately become the property of the State.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province).-The Country Party offers no objection to this Bill because, to some extent, this House and the Parliament is committed to ensure that the Lower Yarra Crossing is completed to provide a badly-needed facility in that location. As has been stated by the Minister for Local Government and Mr. Todd, the purpose of the Bill is to guarantee the payment of interest and principal to those people who will be taking out debentures to provide the money for the construction of the bridge. It is understandable that it will be many years before this bridge is constructed. I presume the Authority will be required to raise the finance that is necessary to enable it to carryon the constructional work during that time.

In order that the people who invest their money in debentures will have some security and protection, the Government is prepared to guarantee the interest of these debenture holders. There is no real problem to be faced in this regard because, in the initial stages, before the Authority can raise debentures, the conditions for the debentures must be approved by the Treasurer. This provides a safeguard that 'the Authority will not be able to run willy-nilly, as it were, in raising debentures at unreasonable interest rates. In the final analysis, the Treasury will have to approve of the conditions attached to debentures. The Country Party supports the Bill, because the proposed Lower Yarra Crossing will fulfil an urgent need

LO'I.oer Yarra.:Orossing [18 OCTOBER. 1966.] Authority (Guarantee) Bill. 999

in. the city. The sooner the bridge can be completed, the sooner a necessary facility will be provided for the trave~ling public, particularly in the metropolitan area.

The_ motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time and committed.


Clause 2 (Approval of debentures and debenture stock by Treasury of Victoria) .

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-Honorable members again demonstrated their support for this great enterprise, and I feel sure that they will have reason to be proud of its action. The Lower Yarra Crossing is by far the largest public project ever to be attempted in Victoria, and therefore it merits the strongest support that Parliament can give it. It is pleasing to learn that work on the project is ahead of schedule and that it promises to be even further ahead of schedule before it is completed. J hope this will prove to be the case because not only will it fulfil a pressing need, but the sooner it is earning revenue, the easier it will be for the Authority to repay the money which it must borrow to finance the work.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I hope it will stand up better than Kings Bridge.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I hope so, too. Mr. Bradbury rightly stated that the bridge will take years to construct, but there is a real prospect of its being finished by the end of 1970.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURy.-We will be lucky if that is achieved.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It will be gratifying if it is, because it would be one year ahead of schedule. Whether the bridge can be completed by 1970 remains to be seen. Towards the end of the month, we will have the report from the consultants who

are working both in London and here planning the road structure, design and cost of the bridge.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-What type of material will be used on the bridge?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The Lower Yarra Crossing may be like the Hobart bridge; it will have a series of concrete arches leading to a large central span, which will probably be made of steel.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-What sort of steel?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is a matter for the consultants to determine. At all events, it will be a large span of about 1,100 feet in length and roughly 170 feet high. The top of the pylons will be something like 400 feet high.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Do you mean 170 feet at high tide?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-At mean high-water le~l. The initial financial calculations on the bridge were based on a usage of about 30,000 vehicles a day. The estimates of the' Country Roads Board and the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works indicate that the usage right from the beginning is more likely to be 50,000 vehicles a day rising within a short time to 70,000 daily. If those figures are right, it would appear that the financial calculations are conservative. If this is so the toll for the bridge may be slightly lower or the pay-off period slightly shorter.

Honorable members can be assured that, in guaranteeing the debentures, the Government is not really running a considerable risk; there is every prospect-unless something goes wrong, which is not expected-that the loan will be paid off in a comparatively short time and that the bridge will then revert to the State.

I thank honorable members for supporting the Bill. So far as the Salmon-street over-pass is concerned, this question is at present being

1000 Local Government [COUNCIL.] Bill.

closely considered and discussed. It is one of the problems that the liaison committee may have to deal with, but it is hoped that the consultants will be able to produce a design which will satisfy the Kraft food company and the other industries in the area and provide them with access without prejudicing their activities. Such a solution is expected to be produced, and I am sure Mr. Todd, Mr. Knight and other members of the liaison committee will be glad to see it, probably at the end of this month.

The clause was agreed to, as was the remaining clause.


LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. The debate (adjourned from

October 5) on the motion of the Hon. R. J. Hamer (Minister for Local Government) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL (NorthWestern Province).-This is a Bill to amend the Local Government Act 1958, and for other purposes. It was brought in last year but was held over until the current sessional period. In one way or another, the Bill will affect every member of this Parliament. So far, the measure has been considered without heat and devoid of sectional interest; it has been considered in a truly democratic way, as measures of this type should be treated in Parliament. I pay a tribute to the Minister for Local Government for his willingness to work with members and discuss with them their points of view on various pro'visions in the Bill. Members were provided with the opportunity of making inquiries concerning the legislation in various municipalities, and the courtesy was extended to the municipalities of allowing them ample time in which to consider the

matter. This was greatly appreciated, particularly by those municipalities which meet only once a month.

The Minister agreed to certain amendments, which were incorporated in the measure presented to Parliament last year. The honorable gentleman has also intimated that amendments to this measure will be submitted during the Committee stage. The manner in which the Bill has been handled is particularly pleasing because it has enabled the Municipal Association of Victoria to discuss certain matters at its recent conference. It has also enabled honorable members to obtain information concerning the effects of the legislation. Nevertheless, there are still some matters concerning which members require clarification.

Local government is a very important part of our life. There is no need for me to remind the House that, originally, local government was concerned merely with roads. To-day, it embraces a wide sphere of activity and it has a tremendous impact on the community both from the point of view of taxation and from the welfare of the community. As a councillor, I consider that frequently municipal councils do a good deal of the Government's work.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-You would not give up your position as a councillor.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-I would not give up my interest in local government for one moment. In many respects, I believe that Parliament, particularly in the Federal sphere, is getting away from the people. The Federal Parliament is undertaking vast capital works out of revenue, and a great deal of its attention is concentrated upon Canberra. In acting in this manner, the Government is overlooking its responsibilities in regard to the sick, the aged, the maimed, the intellectually handicapped and the education field. Members of the Commonwealth Parliament are too far

Local Government [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1001

away from the people. The sooner that Parliament gets back closer to the people, the better it will be for everybody concerned and for the nation as a whole.

Frequently, the Federal Government hands out money collected by way of taxation as if the money belonged to it, whereas it really belongs to the peopl~. After all, the purpose of taxation is to supply people with the necessities of life. In the State sphere also, Governments are inclined to act as has the Federal Government. Too much emphasis is placed on party politics instead of on work for the improvement of various sections of community life. In local government affairs, a great deal is being done in regard to baby health centres or pre-natal care. Finance should be wholly provided by the Commonwealth, and there should not be any need for State taxation. Admittedly, assistance for the intellectually handicapped and for immunization campaigns are subsidized by the State, but they are paid for mainly by local government bodies.

At times, I feel strongly on the way in which Parliament is getting away from the people. However, we at the local government level are also inclined to drift away from the people. If a person wants to erect a fence, or a shed, or pull out a tree, a charge is made for a permit. I realize that some of these charges are necessary, particularly in relation to scaffolding which it vital for the safety of the community. However, these charges all add to the cost of the building. Not only must a marginal salary be paid to the men engaged on this scaffolding work, but it is also necessary to have the work inspected by the scaffolding inspector, the building surveyor and, right down the list, by five or six highly paid and capable men. All this extra cost must be charged to the building.

At Kaniva recently, I heard a discussion on the subject of travelling expenses paid to councillors while

performing municipal duty. History was being recalled, and it was said that a certain councillor walked 9 miles through muddy paddocks to attend council meetings. On wet and dark nights he had only a fence to guide him, because he could not see where he was going. He did this with a community spirit and without any financial assistance. Now this Bill seeks to provide travelling expenses for councillors. The councillor of today generally has a lovely car and a good metalled road on which to drive. It is considered that he must be paid expenses. It appears that gone are the days when these duties were carried on in a community spirit.

Clauses 3 and 4 relate to voting rights. There are many aspects in relation to this matter with which I am not conversant. The Labor Party has mentioned adult franchise, and perhaps that might be better than the proposals contained in clause 3. One hears many opinions expressed at conferences of the Municipal Association, and apparently municipalities want a provision along these lines. The scale of values provides for one vote upon a property of a value less than $100; upon a value amounting to $100 and less than $200, there shall be two votes; and upon a value amounting to or exceeding $200, there shall be three votes.

Then there is a scale of votes for the owner and the tenant. For instance, if a man has two houses, he is to be entitled to only two votes, but the tenant might get twelve votes. That is not equitable, but it also has a deeper significance. At one stage in the history of Victoria, it was the private investor who either built homes or provided the money to be put into houses for rental. Today, the private investor does not wish to invest his money in houses because, after payment of rates, maintenance and an appreciation of the tenants who may occupy the house, he is not sure that it would be economic for him to do so. Therefore, we reach the socialistic


situation in which the State has to provide homes for the people. During the Committee stage, I should like to hear the comments of honorable members on this aspect of the subjec~.

Sub-section (2) of proposed new section 73, as contained in clause 3, provides that a person shall not be entitled to be enrolled in respect of a property having a net annual value of less than $50 unless there is a house upon the property and the person resides therein. It could be suggested that the provision is fair enough, but I made inquiries to ascertain the effect of that provision, and I received the following opinion:-

A further examination of the proposals to amend the Local Government Act, shows that the provision of $50 net annual valuation will disfranchise 190 ratepayers. As our enrolment is 1,310, council views the measure with alarm.

In the circumstances, it is wrong that so many people should' be disfranchised. This clause should be further examined. I have received intimation from councils that the proposal to increase the nomination fees to $50 will make it impossible for some people to stand for election to shire councils. Very few people lose their deposits to-day, and I do not believe that $50 would stop a person from nominating if he wished to serve the community. He should not submit himself for nomination to 'gain an advantage. This House may come to some agreement on that aspect.

In Victoria in recent years~ there have been some serious accidents concerning scaffolding. When one sees the vast networks of scaffolding erected around buildings in Melbourne to-day, one realizes how necessary it is that experienced men should be employed to carry out this work and that builders should not rely simply on "hammer and spanner" men. This Bill provides control over scaffolding; it proposes to set up regulations so that men will be examined for competency, and for the issue of certificates accordingly~ The emphasis is

The Hon. A. R. Mansell.

on safety, and,; although it will cost money, if one life is saved in a year it will be money well spent. If the workmen know that the scaffolding is erected in a correct and safe manner, they will go about their work with a feeling of safety and with no fear of danger.

It has always been the bug-bear of local government that pressure groups or members of committees of, clubs are elected to council, and under the principal Act at the present time they may be deprived -Of speaking on matters relating to clubs or committees. Clause 10 proposes the insertion in section 181 of the principal Act, which provides that councillors shall not speak or' vote on matters in which they have an interest, of the following paragraph:-

Where the matter relates to or concerns any club or association or body consisting of more than 20 members formed for

'charitable cultural educational sporting or recreational purposes and any councillor is a member of such club association or body but is not a, member of any committee of, and does not hold any other office in, such club association or body that councillor may take part in the discussion and vote upon the matter. "

It has been my experience of local government that there are few folk serving on councils who do not belong to some club or organization. This proposed restriction would debar many folk from taking their rightful place as president of an organization in which they take an interest. I am proud to serve on the Mildura City Council, which is doing so much good work for sporting and charitable bodies, and such organizations as the Intellectually Handicapped Centre, the Senior Citizens' Club, homes for the aged, the local hospital, the bowling clubs and the tennis clubs.

What is to be the position of the council nominee on the committee of these organizations? Is he to be debarred from speaking at council meetings when these organizations are under discussion? The present mayor is a prominent member of the tennis club, and new tennis courts


are to be built. Is he to be debarred from taking his place on the committee of the tennis club because he is a member of the city council which will be providing money for the club?

Sub-clause (1) of clause 11 amends section 187 of the principal Act as it relates to intersections. Mildura has many wide streets and nature strips up to 26 feet in width. The amendment provides that any tree, shrub, bush or fence must be 30 feet back from the intersection or 56 feet back from the kerb channel. To my way of thinking, that means that the house would have to be set back from the corner and shrubs in garden beds would have to be less than 3 ft. 6 in. in height. In a hot climate such as that experienced at Robinvale, Mildura, Ouyen and Swan Hill, there will be no shelter from the hot north winds and the residents will suffer discomfort. I admit that this is only a power to make by-laws, but one never knows what some local councils will do. Frequently, they bring in a by-law to cover everything, and, in my opinion, what is proposed in this clause is too mandatory.

Another contentious clause will allow councils to do certain work within the municipalities. I realize that in areas where there are no private contractors, and the council grader or tractor is working on a road in the vicinity, it is an excellent idea to allow the council to do some work for residents, but in other cases it may not be such a good idea. Some farmers have their homes set back up to half a mile from the roadway, 'and in wet weather the tracks to their houses become impassable. They get the council to grade the tracks for them and I think this is to be encouraged. However, it is getting away from the spirit of what is proposed when councils are competing unfairly with private contractors. Councils have an unfair advantage in this regard because they do not pay many of the taxes which

have to be paid by a private contractor. For example, they do not pay sales tax when they purchase their plant.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-Should not the private individual be entitled to accept the best price?

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-If councils are to do this work, they will be competing with private enterprise.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-They are competing.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Yes, but they pay no taxes, and they do not have to pay rates on the sheds in which they store their plant. In addition, they get special discounts on oil and fuel. In special circumstances, I am in favour of the proposal, but I think it should be watched carefully. If such ·a principle is extended, the stage could be reached where we would have a completely socialistic State, and I think, generally speaking, we would want the individual to have some say in what is happening.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-The individual has the right to patronize the organization from which he gets the' best deal, and if the council offered the best price he would select the council.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-I do not think it would be wise to extend the principle too far. Some difficulties have occurred in the parking of heavy vehicles and equipment in residential areas. I do not think it is fair to persons living in declared residential areas that this should be permitted. I agree that at the moment the nonconforming user is entitled to park his trucks in such an area. However, councillors receive complaints that these heavy trucks are started up early in the morning and create a noise nuisance to the discomfort of other residents. In addition, these heavy vehicles cut across the kerbs and break them down because there is insufficient room for them to turn a corner. The proposal in the Bill

1004 Local Govern'ment [COUNCIL.] Bill ..

will give a council the right to prohibit the parking of such vehicles in certain declared areas. I t also sets out the specifications of the vehicles which will not be permitted to park, and I think that is a good idea.

Another provIsIOn which has caused some concern to members of the Country Party relates to heavy vehicles being debarred from using certain roads or streets at certain times. Wha t is proposed in the Bill will give the municipality the right to bring in a by-law to re-route heavy vehicles and thus prevent them from travelling through residential areas or on roads which are built of light metal.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-Subject to certain approval.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Yes, subject to the approval of the Governor in Council. Councillors are elected by the people, so why should they be forced to go to the Governor in Council to get consent to close a road to heavy traffic?

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-It will be subject to the approval of the Traffic Commission.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.Doubtless, the Traffic Commission will be consulted. In the municipality in which I live, the highway is the main street, and the council has constructed a road to the east of the highway and another to the west, but it cannot prevent heavy vehicles from using the highway. So, these heavy vehicles with long trailers go through the town. There are six churches along the highway, and on Sunday mornings the noise from these vehicles passing along the highway disrupts the services being held in the churches. Yet,· it would be a simple matter to re-route the vehicles, and this Bill will enable the council to do that. For that reason, I think it is a good provision.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-It is not as good as it might be because the Minister and the Governor in Council will have the right of veto.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Local governing bodies have a wonderful record of service to the community, and councillors work in an honorary capacity, so I think they will do the right thing.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.Probably the council will, but will the Minister and the Governor in Council endorse its actions when pressure is brought to bear from outside?

The Hon; A. R. MANSELL.-I have no doubt that the present Minister will supply a sound and reasonable answer. He has proved himself in the past, but I would hate to have some of the other Ministers in his position. Problems can arise temporarily in areas such as Gippsland and the Western District where timber trucks use the roads frequently. At certain times of the year, the roads will not stand the heavy traffic, and I believe the municipalities should have power to act quickly and temporarily close the roads. However, what is proposed in the Bill will help municipalities to some extent in certain cases. Section 54, as proposed to be amended by clause 7, will provide, inter alia-

Notwithstanding anything in any Act where it appears to the council of any municipality that a street or road or any part of a street or road is likely to be seriously injured by traffic the council may with the consent of the Governor in Council-

What would the Governor in Council know about it?-without closing the same stop for the whole of any year or portion or portions of any year as the council thinks fit certain kinds of tFaffiC thereon unless with the written consent of the council or some officer duly authorized by the council in that behalf.

In such circumstances, a council would not stop a timber truck from using the road because it wants the timber. Frequently, the whole economy of the town depends on the sawmills. In addition, there is a general shortage of timber throughout Victoria.


The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.-In many cases, by the time the permission of the Governor in Council has been obtained the damage will be done.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-I am coming to that point.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-There is ample power to do it on a temporary basis.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.Municipal councillors are honest and try to do the best they can, so why not let them have some say? The Government forces councils to spend money on infant welfare centres, kindergartens, and so forth, which are really the responsibility of the Government, and they receive no rates from Government property, so why not give councillors a go and let them say that certain trucks cannot use certain roads? These vehicles cause a great deal of damage after heavy rains. I can remember coming home from a meeting at Nhill and in the vicinity of Dimboola there were three shire roads, two of which were bitumen and the other gravel. It had been raining heavily, and the gravel road was cut to pieces and water was up to the running board of my car. However, the council, in such circumstances, would not be permitted to close the road to heavy traffic without obtaining the prior consent of the Governor in Council.

As honorable members will be given an opportunity to discuss other clauses in Committee, I shall say no more at this stage except that the Country Party supports the Bill.

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT (Southern Province ).-This is another Bill to amend the Local Government Act. Over the years, .several Bills for this purpose have been introduced. Local government is now big business and is increasing year by year. So, obviously, amendments to the Act are needed from time to time. This Bill is probably one of the largest and most ambitious attempts ever made to amend the

Session 1966.-35

Act, and it has occupied the thoughts of the Government and the Minister for Local Government for a long time. I pay a tribute to the Minister for the work he has done in connexion with the Bill. A few members of the Liberal Party sat as a committee for some months considering this Bill, and the members of that committee were given a free hand to consult councils and bring forward suggested amendments, which the Minister considered. Most of them have been incorporated in the Bill. At least an honest endeavour has been made to consider the opinions of local governing bodies and to incorporate their ideas in the Bill.

I shall relate my remarks mainly to clause 30, which deals with a matter on which I have some strong opinions. The provisions of this clause will enable a local council to require a subdivider of land to donate 5 per cent. of the value of the land he is subdividing to council funds. This is a fairly contentious clause, and there has been a great deal of discussion on it by both municipalities and members of the Government. A great deal of thought was given to this matter by the sub-committee which considered the Bill, and members of that committee had a great deal of difficulty in making up their minds on the subject. .

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Was this a Government committee?

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT.-Yes. Members of the Government party always do their best to bring in a complete Bill and try to avoid some of the errors that can so easily occur. Obviously, the subdivider will not be happy about giving the council 5 per cent. of the value of his land. Sub· dividers are a very mixed bunch, and I live in an area which has been subjected to their activities for quite some time. They are good, bad and indifferent. The good ones help the council and provide land for parks and so forth. They do their job in an attractive manner. Others come into the district, buy a piece of land,


subdivide it, get as much as they can for it at the least possible expense, and, after skimming off the cream, they get out as fast as they can. They do not want to give the council 5 per cent. of the value of the land.

Originally, it was thought that this scheme would work by requiring the subdivider to give 5 per cent. of the land to the municipality-that is one block in twenty-but obviously that is not practicable because there are all sorts of subdivisions. Some subdivisions comprise several hundred blocks, and in such cases 5 per cent. of the area can be allocated. If the blocks were together, something like an acre or more of parkland would be provided. But some subdivisions are smaller than 20 blocks and, obviously, part of a block is of no use. The 3 or 4 acres of land around some large homes in the surround of Melbourne may be subdivided, the house being left with a fairly large block and several smaller blocks being sold. Again, 5 per cent. of the area cannot be taken. Obviously, the thing to do is to accept 5 per cent. of the value, but this will also bring problems.

If 5 per cent. of the value is to be subscribed, I believe, with many others, that ·the price of the blocks will rise by 5 per cent. I am certain that most subdividers' will pass on the cost of paying the amount,' and it will be hard on young people who pay such high prices for land. However, if the 5 per cent. of value collected by the municipality is used in the right way, the land will be more valuable and attractive, and people will have some incentive to pay the increased price.

It is important that the money should be used in the right way. My first fears were that a municipality which had failed, or had not been able, to provide large areas for such purposes as football or cricket would tend to take the moneys received as 5 per cent. of value of 'Subdivisions

The Hon. W. R. Garrett.

and apply them in an attempt to produce a large recreation ground, perhaps on one side of a wide municipality. I do not think that is the intention of the Bill, and it is certainly not my concept of what is right. You, Mr. President, and many other honorable members have seen the small, attractive parks distributed throughout London, more particularly in the West End. They are not just the size of building blocks; they consist of an acre or an acre and a half. It is the provision of this sort of small park which should be encouraged.

The areas which we now regard as being on the outskirts of Melbourne, will, in 20, 30, or 50 years' time, be regarded as inner areas. The land for future parks must be bought or otherwise acquired to-day. A large number of green areas of an acre or two, fairly closely spaced throughout our residential areas, are needed, and this Bill should make their provision possible. My fears are somewhat allayed by the provision of the Local Government Act . which enables people to appeal to an arbitrator if they feel' that the 5 per cent. of value which is "donated" to the municipality is not being used in the appropriate local area or in the right way. Local residents will have tE> watch their councils closely to see that the money provided is spent in their immediate area and is not used on the other side of a wide municipality. There are other means of providing large areas 'such as football grounds. The Minister has indicated that the safeguard is provided. Better value will be obtained from the 5 per cent. of the value retained by the municipality if the local progress associations, the subdividers, the agents, and the local residents see that the money is used to provide attractive, small parks in the immediate area, and is not used at distant places in the municipality.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province).-This is not a democratic Bill. The Government


has not heeded its advisers on this measure, and it has ignored the report of the Commission of Inquiry into Local Government in regard to voting rights. At page 23, under the headings, "Division F-Rates and Rating-I. Systems of Rating", the report reads-

There are two systems of rating in Victoria-the net annual value system under which rates are levied on the net annual rental valuation of properties subject to the valuation being not less than five per cent. of the capital value of the property.

This was the only system in operation in Victoria until 1920, when provision was also made for rating on unimproved capital values, that is, on the value of the land without improvements. The Local Government Act provides that a change to this system may be made by the council or by ratepayers following the carrying of a poll on the proposal.

The total amount of rates that may be raised under this system is limited to the total amount which could have been raised if the rating had been on the net annual valuation system.

The unimproved capital value system operates throughout the whole of Queensland, almost entirely throughout New South Wales, to a large extent in Western Australia and to a lesser extent in South Australia. Up to 1961, 47 of Victoria'S 208 municipalities had adopted this form of rating.

A post-war increase in the number of municipalities which have changed to the unimproved capital valuation system might be attributed in a large measure to the active interest of the General Council for Rating Reform.

One of the proposals put to the commission on benalf of that council by its honorary treasurer, Mr. A. R. Hutchinson, was that all municipalities rating on net annual values should levy a rate of 2d. in the £1 on unimproved capital values and that the balance required be raised on net annual values.

The report proceeds at length, and it ultimately recommends the principle of adult franchise, but the Government has not heeded the recommendation nor, I am led to believe, the opinion of the secretary of the Local Government Department.

I do not know what the Government expects from municipalities; at present they have enough trouble about rates, and this is the time of

the year when estimates are considered and the rate is struck. I assure the Minister for Local Government that what is proposed in the Bill is one sure way of increasing municipal rates. This is typical of a Government which is always increasing taxation. As the Bill provides that certain spouses will be entitled to vote, the municipalities will be calling on the Government for assistance on polling days, which are the last Thursday and Saturday of August. All honorable members have seen disgruntled voters in polling booths and have heard people complain of being disfranchised. The provision for some spouses to vote will cause a great deal of trouble and lead to many people being disgruntled. The poll clerks and returning officers, who are usually the town clerks or the shire secretaries, will have their hands full. Mrs. Jones will tell Mrs. Brown that she is entitled to a vote, or Mr. Smith will tell Mrs. Smith that she is not entitled to a vote. It is hard to explain to people why they are not entitled to vote.

One can imagine the turmoil which will arise and the abuse which will be levelled at municipal officers when some spouses are entitled to vote and others are not. The democratic policy is adult franchise, and it should be introduced, not because my party supports it, but because it is right. The system advocated in the Bill is completely wrong. I wish to place it on record that the present proposal is being introduced because the Liberal Party is frightened that the Labor Party is catching up with it in certain areas. Mr. Thorn knows what is happening in some parts of Geelong in this way. My colleague, Mr. Merrifield, has spoken about these things, and I shall not delay the House by speaking at greater length about them, because there are other matters to which I wish to direct my attention.

Clause 10 of the Bill contains provi.sions which I consider to be completely wrong. What will happen


when a councillor is a member of a school advisory council or a school committee and is a member of the committee of the organization? It may be that the organization wants the councillor to be treasurer or president, and quite often he will be the most appropriate man. In my municipality, two councillors were on the committee of the Elderly Citizens' Club, but according to this provision, they will not be able to take part in the discussion or vote on any matters concerning that club.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-This is a liberalizing provision.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-It is certainly liberal when compared with the rest of the Bill, but honorable members have been asked for constructive criticism, and I am offering some. Under clause 10, a councillor who is a member of a school committee or of an elderly citizens' club committee would be debarred from discussing its affairs in the council because the council donates certain moneys to the organization. Councillors may be the best people to assist in the administration of the affairs of an elderly citizens' club. Apparently the Minister agrees, as he nods his head. The same problems would arise if councillors were on the committee of clubs controlling recreational centres, or branches of the Young Men's Christian Association or the Young Women's Christian Association. Mr. Ern Shepherd, a former colleague who has departed to the great land beyond, was very active in the affairs of local organizations, but, if he were alive today, by this provision he, as a councillor, would be debarred from discussing their affairs in the local council.

On many school committees and local organizations such as elderly citizens' clubs, a councillor is elected to the committee and he becomes president or treasurer. Like Mr. Thom, he may be an accountant by profession. Would it not be wiser to have a person who is qualified to do

books, and not debar a suitable person? He is not obtaining a pecuniary interest. The Minister intimated that he intended to refer this matter to the Statute Law Revision Committee. The Williamstown City Council has received advice to that effect. I examined the relevant Acts of Great Britain, Queensland, Western Australia and New South Wales and found it hard to decide which was the best provision, but I think, in all, the West Australian legislation would be the most suitable. I hope the Statute Law Revision Committee will particularly examine section 18I. What is proposed is a slight improvement, but I have faith in the committee's knowledge of the pitfalls because some of its members are experienced municipal councillors. In the future, a councillor who may previously have been considered to infringe the pecuniary interest aspect will be protected. This matter has caused a good deal of trouble in the past.

Clause 11 contains a number of amendinents to section 197 of the Local Government Act relating to by-law making powers, some of which I do not agree with. First, it is provided that paragraph (x) of sub-section (1) of section 197 shall be repealed. This concerns the bylaw dealing with the destruction of rats, vermin and pests. Perhaps at the Committee stage, the Minister will explain the reason for repealing this paragraph. There is still a lot of vermin, particularly rats and mice, around the suburbs. I had some trouble with rat infestation in my ward. The senior health inspector told me that a rat will travel for miles to reach poultry. In this instance, on investigation it was found that there was poultry in nearby backyards. I think municipal councils should retain the power to control pest infestation.

The next amendment deals with the prohibition or regulation of keeping, storing or repairing heavy vehicles in any area defined as a residential area. This matter has caused a good


deal of trouble in the past. As Mr. Mansell mentioned, heavy vehicles starting off early in the morning can be a considerable nuisance. I think the honorable member pointed out that where 3 or 4-ton trucks might have been used in the past, larger vehicles are now being used, and these make a lot of noise. I do not think this is a matter of continuing use, but the Minister may differ with my views. I think the matter needs further clarification, because a man who has a trucking business doing general cartage around the city might acquire a larger vehicle to cart goods between Melbourne and Sydney, thus altering his normal procedure.

The next amendment is the repeal of paragraph (xxix) of sub-section (1) of section 197 of the principal Act. This concerns the depositing of rubbish on highways, and it comes within the purview of the Litter Act, that "toothless tiger" which was to cure the dumping of bottles, cans and litter, and with which the House dealt some time ago. I assure the Minister that this nuisance has not been stopped. In fact, the position has become worse. The local press in various municipalities carries many reports of fines imposed by Courts of Petty Sessions for these offences. In my view, the paragraph to which I referred should be allowed to remain in the Act. There has been a number of court cases in the Sunshine and Altona municipalities recently. Some of the provisions have been strengthened, but the nuisance has not been diminished. When the Litter Act was passed, the people were assured that the dumping of rubbish and so on would be stopped, but this has not eventuated.

The clause next repeals paragraph (xxx) of sub-section (1) of section 197. This relates to the placing of rubbish in laneways and roads, and is similar to the provision I mentioned earlier. From experience, I know that scarcely a council meeting takes place at which complaints are not received about the need to clean up a

roadway where someone has dumped rubbish. I was recently talking to our council engineer about a rightof-way which was cleaned up. The next day one of our colleagues visited the area and found that rubbish had been dumped overnight. Probably the solution is to close such rightof-ways, which were originally provided for the old night-cart system.

The proposed new paragraph (xxxvii) of sub-section (1) of section 197 of the principal Act is a very good one, for which I commend the Minister. The salient word is " vegetation". Travelling around the country, I have noticed that often vegetables, such as potatoes, com and so on, are grown right up to a road comer, and frequently they are as much a hazard on dangerous comers as any other form of growth. Up to now, there has been no power to have such vegetation cut back, because it was primary produce. The amendment will rectify this situation.

Another proposed amendment is to paragraph (xliiia) of sub-section (1) of section 197 of the Local Government Act. This is the provision dealing with prohibiting or regulating bathing, spear-fishing, and the use of surf-boards or surf-skis or water-skis, in certain areas. When a similar Bill was before the House last session, I mentioned skiffleboards by way of interjection, as did Mr. Clarke. The Minister asked what a skiffle-board was. It is a piece of three-ply or thin timber or masonite 2 or 3 feet wide, which is used in shallow water. It is a very dangerous piece of equipment on a beach, because children run along and jump on these boards making them skid. In the Williamstown area, children's legs have been cut by these boards. I urge the Minister to consider the legal position, because skiffle-boards could not be defined as a surf-board and thus would not come within the scope of a council by-law. I have seen new Australians use these boards, which are very


dangerous. I urge the Minister to consider their inclusion in this provision.

The next amendment in the clause provides that after sub-section (2) of section 197 of the principal Act the following sub-section shall be added:-

(3) (a) All by-laws made pursuant to paragraph (xvii) of sub-section (1) prescribing-

(i) the routes along which; or (ii) the times during which-

heavy vehicles may travel in any area specified in such by-laws shall be subject to the approval of the Governor in Council after consultation by the Minister with the Traffic Commission constituted under the Road Traffic Act 1958;

There have been no alterations in this provision since the measure was previously before the House. I have been critical of the Traffic Commission on a number of occasions. The Commission was said to be critical of a municipality, Footscray, one of our older municipalities with which I have had the pleasure to be associated. That city brought a scheme into operation of which I approve, and last night I saw· it in operation. It took me twenty minutes to go along Barkly-street from the corner of Nicholson-street to Victoria-streetless than a quarter of a mile. Imagine what the situation would be like if heavy vehicles had not been prohibited from using this route! I am ama~ed at what the great· proponents of free enterprise propose .. The Footscray City Council took this action on behalf of small shopkeepers, to protect their interests and to bring in business. This prohibition of heavy vehicles travelling along certain streets has brought business into the City of Footscray.

Some of the owner-drivers of interstate transports ar~ arrogant. They do not care where they park their vehicles, and frequently they double park. Consequently, they take up a lot of space, and thus depriv,e local residents of the opportunity of dealing with their own traders. I believe the action of the Footscray

The Hon. A. W. Knight.

City Council was justified. I have had some arguments with the Traffic Commission since I have been a member of this House, and I shall continue to be critical of the Commission when this is justified. I think its members should get out of their ivory tower where they deal only with principles. They need to get out and look at what is going on, instead of merely considering matters from about 9 a.m. until 4.50 p.m. They do not see what happens at 7.30 a.m. or at night; they leave such things to the local councils.

If some person goes to the Commission and states it is costing him a lot of money to run heavy vehicles, there might be a desire to approach the Governor in Council-members of the Cabinet-to stop the Footscray, Melbourne or Williamstown city councils from making such a by-law. One always finds heavy vehicles in the busy thoroughfares through shopping centres. It may be considered strange that I am seeking to protect the little shopkeepers in main streets, as members on the Government side of the House are always critical of the Opposition and assert that its members support socialism. We always support shopkeepers and business proprietors in the municipalities with which we are concerned. I have no faith in the Traffic Commission ; that body is very biased. I hope it will not interfere with the deviation which was originally made by the Footscray council and which brought trade back to the shops in that municipality.

I believe clause 22 contains a good provision. At present, councils are required to invite tenders before entering into contracts for any goods to the amount of $1,000. This figure is being increased to $2,000. At times, a council officer has been caught in a cleft stick and has no~ 'been able to act although an emergency has arisen. He tnay· have to wait a fortnight before the next council meeting, and then certain requirements have to be met, and the


project may be further delayed. As a result of the proposed increase to $2,000, he will be enabled in many cases to obtain quick results when an emergency arises. In view of the fact that the value of money has depreciated in recent years, it may not be long before this limit will have to be increased.

I do not fully agree 'Nith Mr. Garrett's remarks in relation to small parks, such as exist in England. The responsibility rests with municipalities to take care of small parks and gardens, and this work involves them in much expense. The principal expense is not the mowing of the lawns but the cost of transporting lawn mowers and other equipment from place to place. Although I appreciate the sentiments expressed by Mr. Garrett, I do not quite agree with him in this regard.

Sub-section (1) of proposed section 539A provides-

The council of any municipality or any officer of the council authorized in that behalf may temporarily close any street or road or any part of a street or road, where in the opinion of the council or such officer it is expedient that the same should be temporarily closed in whole or in part, by erecting barriers thereon.

Contrary to what Mr. Mansell said, I believe this provision is long overdue. The engineer of the City of Williamstown informed me last night that one road in Williamstown was constructed and dedicated so long ago that he could not certify it. Records containing details of road construction become lost over the years. Under the Local Government Act, a council engineer, before he declares a road as a public highway or a public road, must state that the road will carry a certain weight and that it is built to certain specifications. From his experience or from the council records, he knows whether a road will stand up to certain weights, and it is his responsibility to say whether a particular road should be closed to traffic over a certain tonnage. 1 believe this is a fair provision .. Some of the oil companies in

my municipality had the audacity to say that fire tenders of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board would not be able to use a certain street, although their petrol tankers are much heavier than fire brigade vehicles. Burleigh-street, Newport, deteriorated to such an extent that the council decided that the road should be closed in the interests of the people who use it. This road was built and dedica ted in the days long before Victoria became a separate State. This provision will enable the engineer to close roads to certain types of traffic at all times.

The provisions contained in clause 9 in relation to the qualification of muniCipal scaffolding inspectors meet with my approval. Such provisions are long overdue. 1 recall an accident which occurred at the Totalizator Agency Board headquarters building when an unfortunate apprentice lost his life through faulty scaffolding. The more that can be done to bring safety to industry the better.

Clause 39 deals with the power of a council to order the alteration of a fireplace or chimney which is a fire hazard. This is designed to deal with difficulties encountered with combustion stoves. The Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board has had a lot of trouble so far as combustion stoves are concerned. Some inexperienced people have built stoves close to bearers or to timber framing in houses, with the result that fires have broken out and the attendance of the fire brigade has been necessary. Of course, the brigades do not object to doing their duty, and a proportion of people's rates pay for this service. In future, a council may direct an owner or occupier of a house to make the fireplace or chimney safe to use.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Meibourne North Province) .-1 did not intend to speak on this Bill, but 1 was prompted to do so by Mr. Mansell's opening remarks when he used the word ~'democratic". Of course, be was not referring to this Bill but to the fact that honorable members in

1012 Local Go'vernment [COUNCIL.]

this Chamber have the opportunity of discussing legislation in a democratic way. By the wildest stretch of imagination, this measure could not be termed "democratic"; far from it. At present, a person living in a house in a street where land is rather expensive receives three votes in municipal elections. It is now proposed that his wife will also have three votes, and that an absentee owner, who may be far away, or perhaps joint-owners, will obtain three votes, so that a total of perhaps twelve votes may come from the one property, whereas next door a man, living alone in his own property, is limited to three votes. Under this Bill, such events will be even more prevalent. The Government will automatically include the absentee owner on the roll, and I can understand why. Of course, the wife of the property owner has to make application to get a vote, even though she may have some interest in the municipality in which she resides.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.- Do you want this clause thrown out?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Yes, because it is a most undemocratic one. When this proposal was first discussed, I wondered what cunning mind conceived it, but Mr. Garrett let the cat out of the bag. He told the House that a Liberal Party committee had decided these things. Notwithstanding the fact that his Government paid a large sum of money to hold an inquiry into local government, and that the inquiry presented a recommendation to the effect that there should be one vote-one value adult franchise, the Government has gone ahead with the proposal in the Bill. I challenge the Minister and the members of the Liberal Party committee to deny that at one stage it was the intention of the Government to adopt the recommendation of the inquiry. I understand that a Bill was drawn to include such a provision. Does the Government deny that?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Yes.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-The information available to me is that the Minister was over-ruled by the back-bench committee, which decided to destroy democracy by introducing this three-vote plan.

The Hon. G. W. THOM.-YOU are only guessing.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I am so close to the mark that honorable members would not need to stretch their imaginations very far to believe it. Any fair-minded person knows that it is not fair that of six people living in one house two should get three votes each, and the other four should get none. Yet, all of them are required to abide by the laws of the council, are subjected to the same fines and receive the same privilege. Is it not time we accepted the democratic idea that every person should get one vote? Members of the Labor Party will not be satisfied until that stage is reached

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-And every house is owned by the State.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-During the debate, Mr. Mansell defended private enterprise as against councils which made the mistake of supplying services within the curtilages of the municipalities at prices lower than private enterprise. He said that councils should be stopped from providing these services because they have an unfair advantage. A person has the right to select either the council or a. private contractor to do a job, but in most cases he selects the council because it does the job at a lower price. In addition, it is equipped to do the job, whereas the private contractor probably has to bring his plant from Melbourne or from another city.

The Hon SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.Country people want this service.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-That is so.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-Not too many country people have bitumen roads· right up to their driveways.


The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! Mr. Mansell should not interject when he is not sitting in his rightful place.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Members of the Labor Party support country people as well as residents of the metropolitan area, and we would sympathize with those people who would not get this service from councils if Mr. Mansell had his way. The inquiry into local government also recommended that there should be a pooling of equipment among municipalities. Why has not such a proposal been inserted in the Bill? Members of the Labor Party would certainly support it. At present each council has all sorts of equipment, such as steam rollers and front-end loaders, most of which is idle and rusting in the sheds for 70 per cent. of the time.

The present Act provides that each council must supply these services within its curtilage, and in my opinion councils should be permitted to extend these services to ratepayers and to other municipalities. This was permitted to a small degree a year or so ago, and the Coburg City Council, which has installed a hot-mix plant, has been tendering to other councils for the supply of hot-mix. The prices tendered by the council have been lower than thos·e submitted by private enterprise. However, private enterprise started to apply pressure to have this practice stopped, but fortunately it still pertains and municipalities can trade with one another. What a terrible thing it is for one council to help another! However, I believe in that sort of thing and strongly favour a system somewhat approaching a Greater Melbourne scheme. I believe members of the Country Party were a little sympathetic towards such a proposal some years ago.

Members of the Labor Party support many of the machinery clauses in the Bill which are so necessary for the smooth working of

municipal government, but I state here and now that we strongly oppose the undemocratic clauses that attach to one property anything from three to twelve votes.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) .-Probably no Act in the history of Victoria has created as much legislative surgery as the Local Government Act. From time to time, bundles of amendments to this Act are brought into the House. Many of them have no relation one to the other, but deal with separate parts of this very lengthy Act, which relates to the conduct of muniCipalities. The position is no different on this occasion. This Bill contains 49 clauses, and it might be said to be very much like the curate's egg, good in parts. It is accepted that some of the amend'ments will be welcomed by the municipalities. On the other hand, certain clauses will be strenuously opposed, and it is believed that thiS opposition will be supported by many municipalities which will have to enforce these provisions from time to time. I refer particularly to clauses 3 and 4, which are of a type that the Labor Party finds distinctly unpalatable. In the Committee stage, those clauses will be opposed.

This Bill is, in effect, a Committee Bill, and probably most of our remarks will be devoted to those particular clauses when the Bill reaches the Committee stage. The Labor Party will not oppose the second reading because, as I say, many of the clauses are acceptable to its members. It is regrettable that, instead of many amendments being saved up and dumped into the House, some of the more controversial proposals are not brought forward at a time when the House can concentrate on them. It is also a pity that this Act is subjected to legislative surgery from time to . time, but, of course, certain associations think. they have the right to tell the people of Victoria how they shall be governed municipally. When the Bill

1014 Return of Mr. Spealcer [ASSEMBLY.] from Overseas.

reaches the Committee stage, the Labor Party will indicate its main reasons for opposing certain clauses.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time

and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Repeal of section 63 and

amendment of section 64 of Act 6299).

The Hon. R.' J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-Many contributions have been made to this debate and, as a result of those comments and suggestions which have been received from various sources since the Bill was introduced, I should like to circulate several amendments before the Bill is considered in Committee, especially as several members have indicated that they wish to refer to particular clauses. I therefore ask that progress be reported to enable preparation of the amendments to be undertaken.

Progress was reporte<J.

ADJOURNMENT. The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON

(Minister of Housing) .-1 move-That the House do now adjourn. The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.40 p.m.

ifitgislatiut Asstmbly. Tuesday, October 18, 1966.

The SPEAKER (Sir William McDonald) took the chair at 4.5 p.m., and read the prayer.

RETURN OF MR. SPEAKER FROM OVERSEAS.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) (By leave) .-Briefly, Mr. Speaker, may I say to yqu, "welcome back" after your travels. We look forward to a happy conclusion to this sessional period under your

guidance. May I also comment on the fine job that has been done in your absence by the Deputy Speaker. I am sure you will be pleased to learn that the business of the House has gone smoothly, and it is to be hoped that it will continue along the ,same pattern.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) (By leave) .-Mr. Speaker, I wish to support what the Premier has said. We are delighted to see you looking so fit and well. Doubtless your experience overseas has been enriched by contact with the many parliaments that you had the opportunity of visiting. I, too, endorse what the Premier said regarding the excellent performance of the Deputy Speaker in your absence.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) (By leave) .-Mr. Speaker, I support the remarks of the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition in extending to you a welcome home. You are looking very well, and no doubt you are feeling fit. I am sure the experience you gained overseas will help us immeasurably in this House. Again, Sir, welcome back.

The SPEAKER (Sir William MCDonald).-Mr. Premier, the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Country Party, I thank you for your kind remarks. Perhaps I should say "thank you" to the Leader of the Country Party more than anyone else, because he did not hold out any threats. As has been mentioned, I have had the opportunity to gain considerably from my visit. I have heard from a number of sources that my Deputy has done a very fine job in my absence, and I extend my thanks to him. Again, gentlemen, thank you very much for your welcome; it is pleasing to be back.

NORTHLAND SHOPPING CENTRE. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE: SALE OF LAND.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) asked the Premier-

1. What public moneys, municipal and State, have been spent on providing roads, brid~es, transport, and other seryices .to the Northland shopping centre?

Piangil Irrigation [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Project. 10]5

2. What area of land was sold to the proprietors of this centre by the State authorities and at what average price per foot?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-I will arrange for the information sought by the honorable member to be obtained for him.

STATE SERVICES. SUPPLY OF UNIFORMS: MANUFAC

TURERS: COST : VALUE OF CLOTH : CHARGES TO EMPLOYEES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong West) a~ked the Premier-

1. Who are the suppliers of uniforms for the following State services :-(a) Victorian Railways; (b) Victoria Police Force; (c) Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board; (d) State Electricity Commission; (e) State Government drivers, attendants, &c. ; and (I) prison warders?

2. What is the cost of a uniform in each of the above cases?

3. Who are the manufacturers and/or suppliers of cloth for these uniforms an~ where the cloth is made?

4. What is the value of cloth supplied from each· source?

5. What charges are made against employees for uniforms in each of the above cases?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-I will arrange for the information sought by the honorable member to be obtained for him.

PIANGIL IRRIGATION PROJECT. WATER ALLOCATIONS: EMPLOYEES.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Premier-

1. Whether the Division of State Development has completed inquiries into the question of whether special water allocations from the River Murray should be granted to Cohn Bros. and McCarthy Bros. proposed irrigation project at Piangil; if so, what recommendation has been made; if not, what stage the investigation has reached?

2. Whether investigations included examination of the relative merits of utilizing the same large volume of water in existing areas of production closer to Bendigo, and market surveys for produce from all areas investigated, respectively; if so, with what results?

3. Whether firm assurances were furnished by the sponsors of the project as to the number of employees who would be engaged and under what general conditions,

including accommodation and capital expenditure, respectively; if so, what are the details in respect of each?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-The answers are-

1. The investigation is in its concluding stages, but a few questions remain to be answered by the applicants as well as the hearing of two prominent organizations which have sought an extension of time for the submission of their cases.

In the circumstances, it is difficult to state precisely when the report will be received, but four weeks from now seems likely.

2. The application relates to water available under the 1963 allocations between the Nyah pumps and the South Australian border. The terms of reference do not include the question as to whether the water sought could be more economically used in other places. However, comparisons are being made locally with regard to the respective merits of the land usage indicated by the applicants and any alternatives that may present themselves.

3. I cannot answer this question while the inquiry is in progress, but can promise that due consideration will be given these aspects before any decision is made.

CREDIT -PURCHASE AGREEMENTS. PROPOSED TAX.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Treasurer- .

1. What are the cre~it-purchase agreements referred to by him in his last Budget speech as taking the place of hire-purchase agreements and which are to be taxed at the rate of Ii per cent?

2. Whether the Government intends to apply the proposed I! per cent. tax to persons purchasing houses and/or land on credit-purchase agreements or to persons operating credit accounts with retail firms in Victoria?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer).-The answers are-

1. In general terms, they are methods of instalment credit such as chattel mortgages and personal loans which have been progressively taking the place of hire-purchase agreements.

2. The ambit of the legislation will be disclosed when the Bill is brought to the House.

SOCIAL WELFARE BRANCH. WIDOWS' ALLOWANCES.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Fitzroy) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. Whether widows granted the increase in the Commonwealth pensions will ats(; continue to receive an allowance from th"

1016 Social Welfare [ASSEMBLY.] Branch.

Victorian Social Welfare Department, if not-(a) what reductions in allowances will be made and how many widows' allowances will be reduced by 50 cents or more; (b) how much the State will save by decreasing these payments; and (c) whether the reductions are due to application of an income formula and, in such event-(i) when this formula was last reviewed; (ii) whether the formula takes account of subsequent rises in the basic wage; (iii) how much it would cost the State to raise the allowable income, according to the formula, by $1.00; (iv) whether the Government intends to review the income formula following the Commonwealth increase in widows' pensions; and (v) whether the Government reviewed the income formula following the previous increase in widows' pensions?

2. How many widows were receiving allowances from the Social Welfare Department as at 30th June last on behalf of themselves and their children, respectively, indicating what these allowances were and what was the total cost?

3. As at 30th June, 1962, 1963, 1964, and 1965, respectively, how many widows were receiving allowances from the Social Welfare Department on behalf of themselves and their children, respectively, indicating what these allowances were and what was the total cost?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The answers are very lengthy, and I therefore seek leave for their incorporation in Hansard, without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

1. The Commonwealth Government recently approved an increase of $1 in widows' pensions.

This will involve adjustments to certain paYJIlents by the State with effect from the 20th October, 1966.

(a) (i) Generally, where the State assistance is $1 or less per week, such assistance to widows will cease. Where the State assistance is greater than $1 per week assistance will be reduced by $1.

There will be some exceptions, for example, where the. Department's assessment of the family's needs would enable the maximum of assistance to be continued.

(ii) It is not known at this stage how many will be reduced by 50 cents or more.

(b) In the cases under question approximately $40,000 in a full year, or $28,000 in the remainder of this financial year.

( c) As the income of widows from social service pensions was considered to be inadequate the Government has for many years supplemented such pensions from State funds.

As the Commonwealth progressively assumes more of the financial responsibility in this matter, the State correspondingly reduces its commitment.

Accordingly, the reductions are due to the application of a formula. The formula relates to a family's needs for food and clothing after provision for accommodation and essential hire-purchase commitments. It follows that the greater the income available, the less is the need for supplementary assistance.

(i) In October, 1963. (ii) No.

(iii) Approximately $35,000 per annum. (iv) No. (v) No.

2 and 3. The following table shows the number of widows (including some deserted wives who are classified as widows) being paid supplementary assistance in respect of their children as at the date~ indicated.

The rates of assistance vary in accordance with differing family circumstances up to the maximum of $3.50 per week per child.

The annual total costs in all categories of assisted cases are given in the table. It is not possible to extract as requested the particular costs of payments for widows and their children.

Number of Cost of widows assistance for

(including year for all No. of cases (not As at·- children. deserted including wives

classified as medical and school widows). payments).

$

30.6.62 7,413 1,103 817,274

30.6.63 7,253 1,189 7l9,598

30.6.64 5,626 830 631,172

30.6.65 6,131 847 596,312

30.6.66 6,209 824 572,7l8

METROPOLITAN FIRE BRIGADE. PAYMENTS BY MUNICIPALITIES AND

INSURANCE COMPANIES.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. What amounts of money were paid by each metropolitan municipality towards the cost of operating the Metropolitan Fire Brigade in the years 1964-65 and 1965-66, respectively?

Metropolitan Fire [18 OCTOBER, .1966.] Brigade. 1017

2. What amounts were paid by insurance companies to the Brigade in each of the above years?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The answers consist of a long series of figures, occupying three foolscap pages, and I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


1. The following amounts were paid during 1964-1965:-

Melbourne City Altona Shire .. Box Hill City Brighton City Broadmeadows City Brunswick City Bulla Shire .. Camberwell City Caulfield City Coburg City .. Collingwood City Croydon Shire Doncaster and Temple·

stowe Shire Eltham Shire .. Essendon City Fitzroy City .. Footscray City Hawthorn City Heidelberg City Keilor City .. Kew City .. Lillydale Shire Malvern City Moorabbin City Mordialloc City Northcote City Nunawading City Oakleigh City Port Melbourne City Prahran City Preston City Richmond City Ringwood City Sandringham City South Melbourne City St. Kilda City Sunshine City Waverley City Werribee Shire Whittlesea Shire Williamstown City

$ 225,313.57

32,879.80 28,570.90 33,562.90 38,676.40 26,390.93

985.10 71,471.90 56,978.43 29,231.00 13,287.87 11,308.93

17,388.43 2,841.97

29,105.90 14,293.17 34,582.77 21,759.13 49,706.50 24,217.97 21,676.20

382.70 41,955.40 60,976.93 15,371.03 28,454.53 56,487.23 34,247.17 15,978.10 59,441.83 40,366.70 19,482.20 16,483.17 27,901.27 40,666.80 60,612.00 54,716.28 35,343.43

1,954.90 6,449.73

19,698.83

1,421,200.00

The following amounts were paid during 1965-1966:-

Melbourne City Altona Shire .. Box Hill City Brighton City

$ 179,366.80 24,541.20 36,530.60 44,365.40

Broadmeadows City Brunswick City Bulla Shire Camberwell City Caulfield City Coburg City .. Collingwood City Croydon Shire Diamond Valley Shire .. Doncaster and Temple-

stowe Shire .. Eltham Shire .. Essendon City Fitzroy City Footscray City Hawthorn City Heidelberg City Keilor City Kew City Lillydale Shire Malvern City Moorabbin City Mordialloc City Northcote City Nunawading City Oakleigh City Port Melbourne City Prahran City Preston City Richmond City Ringwood City Sandringham City South Melbourne City St. Kilda City Sunshine City Waverley City Werribee Shire Whittlesea Shire Williamstown City

2. 1964-1965 1965-1966

$ 39,913.60 31,873.80

711.20 94,294.80 67,297.80 46,864.40 15,968.60 9,382.80 8,076.40

21,795.20 2,106.20

45,136.80 21,949.80 46,741.00 36,174.60 42,024.00 25,876.20 31,074.20

884.40 55,228.20 88,503.60 21,541.40 35,832.20 40,490.80 25,326.40 19,171.80 66,325.80 51,223.20 23,310.00 15,575.00 36,141.20 35,677.60 51,187.20 49,116.80 50,355.80 2,620.40 8,485.60

20,237.20

1,569,300.00

$2,842,400 .. $3,138,600

DUCK-SHOOTING LICENCES: FIREARMS CERTIFICATES. NUMBER ISSUED: REVENUE.


1. How many duck-shooting licences were issued by the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch in the years 1965 and 1966 respectively, and what revenue was derived therefrom? .

2. In the years 1965 and 1966, res~ectively-( a) h9w many firearms certificates were issued by the Police Department; (b) what revenue was derived therefrom; and (c) how many applications for firearms certificates were rejected?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The answers consist of some peculiar tables of figures, and I seek leave

1018 Motor [ASSEl\ffiLY. ] Vehicles.

of the House to have them incorpor- 2.

ated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and answers were as follows:-

the

1. 1965 40,923 at full fee ($2)

224 at reduced fee ($1) Total Licences 41,147 Total Revenue $82,070

1966 29,101 at full fee ($2)

188 at reduced fee ($1) Total Licences 29,289 Total Revenue $58,390

2.

$ 81,846

224

$ 58,202

188

1965. 1966 (to 30th Sept., 1966).

(a) Firearms Certificates issued .. 12,180 10,928

(b) Revenue $5;770.50 $5,200.50

(c) Applications for fire-arms certificates rejected 213 196

·f

MOTOR VEHICLES. REGISTRATIONS.

Mr .. 'WILKES' (North cote) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. As at July, 1966, how many private and commercial motor vehicles, respectively, were registered in Victoria?

2. In each of the years 1964 and 1965 and in the current year to July, how many new private and commercial vehicles, respectively, were registered in Victoria?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief, Secretary).The answers are-

1. As at 31st July, 1966-

Private.

936,512

Commercial.

125,800 (including 2,.537

" Hire "vehicles)

I 1966

(to and - 1964. 1965. including

31st July, 1966).

Private .. 92,351 94,073 49,389

Commercial* .. 14,547 14,662 7,351

• Includes" Hire" vehicles for which separate figures are not readily available.

ROADWORTHINESS CERTIFICATES: POLICE INSPECTIONS: REPAIR ORDERS.


1. During 1965 and in the current year to July, respectively-(a) how many roadworthiness certificates were issued; (b) how many commercial and private vehicles, respectively, were inspected by the police; and (c) how many commercial and private vehicles, respectively, were ordered off the road by police to have repairs effected to make them roadworthy?

2. How frequently the police carry out roadworthiness 'checks on vehicles?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The answers are-

. l' (a) The figures are not readily available, as roadworthiness certificates are issued by private persons or firms who are licensed to test' vehicles for roadworthiness.

(b) The figures are not readily available in, the categories requested. However, the total numbers, of vehicl~s inspected by police for roadworthiness were-

1965-92,425. 1966 (to and including 31st July, 1966)-

47,984. (c) The figures are not readily available

as the use of vehicles which are the subject of "Notices Regarding Repairs" is not prohibited except, where a member of the Force is of the .opinion that any vehicle is unroadworthy to such an extent as to be a danger to other road users. However, durin~ the periods in question the following "Notices Regarding Repairs" were served on owners and/or drivers of vehicles which were found to be unroadworthy after inspection by police-

1965-9,039. 1966 (to and including 31st July, 1966)-

4,705.

2. Roadworthiness checks are carried out as part' of normal police duties and par

'ticular attention is given to this matter during traffic enforcement drives.

Melbourne and [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Monash Universities. 1019

MELBOURNE AND MONASH UNIVERSITIES.

FIRST-YEAR SCIENCE STUDENTS.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond) asked the Minister of Education-

1. How many first-year science students were enrolled at Monash and Melbourne universities, respectively, in each of the years from 1963 to 1966 inclusive?

2. Whether these figures show a steady decline in the number of students enrolled; if so-(a) why; and (b) what effect this will have on the number of qualified science teachers available to the Education Department?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of Education) i.-The answers are-

Year. University of Monash Total. Melbourne. University.

1963 .. 630 88 718

1964 .. 685 245 930

1965 .. 550 252 802

1966 .. 534 312 846

SCIENCE AND MATHEMATICS TEACHERS.

TRAINING SCHEME.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond) asked the Minister of Education-

Whether the University of Melbourne recently prepared a detailed and positive scheme for the training of an increased number of science and mathematics teachers; if so-( a) what steps are being taken to implement this scheme; and (b) if he will lay the file dealing with this matter on the table of the Library?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

A scheme designed to increase the number of scien<re and mathematics teachers has been considered and proposed by several heads of faculties at the University of Melbourne.

(a) There have been preliminary discussions with the Director of Education and other departmental officers, but the University of Melbourne has not, as yet, formally submitted the proposal.

(b) . Yes.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. PURCHASE OF LAND.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Minister of Education-

What land has been purchased by the Education Department from land develop· ment companies in each of the years 1960 to 1966, indicating-( a) the land development companies concerned; and (b) the names of the directors of those companies?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of' Education) .-The answer is-

The Department has acquired land from many companies over the period mentioned, but it is not possible to give with any confidence a list of those companies whose main purpose is the acquisition of land for development and sale, which is taken to be the meaning conveyed by the expression II land development companies." The objects of practically all companies are expressed so widely that operations of this sort are included. In addition to this difficulty, company directorates change in membership from time to time .

It is not considered reasonable to undertake the very extensive research which would be required to answer this question. However, lists have been prepared of the Department's land transactions involving larger sites during the financial years 1960-1961 to the present, and these lists will be made available to the honorable member.

MENTAL HOSPITALS. FOOD ALLOWANCE: GRATUITIES TO WORKING PATIENTS: TOBACCO ISSUE.

Mr. RING (Preston) asked the Minister of Immigration, for the Minister of Health-

1. Whether ithe food allowance per patient has been cut from 61 cents per day to 45 cents per day in all mental hospitals; if so, what effect this will have on the health of the patients?

2. What grants are being paid to working patients?

3. How many patients are being deprived of work through the economy measures being introduced?

4. By what percentage the tobacco issue has .b~~n cut, ~d whether there is any pOSSibIlity of thiS cut being removed?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immi· gration) .-The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are-

1. The value of the food in the present full menu for patients in mental hospitals at metropolitan contract rates averages 45

1020 Railway [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.

cents per patient per day, and this figure has been used as a guide for the allocation of money to the various institutions for the purchase of food. The figure of 61 cents quoted by the honorable member has no relationship to any calculation known to the Mental Health Authority.

The menus are designed to provide adequate nourishment to all patients and any reduction below this standard would not be countenanced.

2. Gratuities to patients amounted to $122,562.00 in 1965-66 and are broadly based on 50 cents per patient per week. Dependent upon the type of work performed, the gratuity may amount to much more. It is anticipated that a similar amount will be distributed this financial year.

3. Nil.

4. After consideration of the. requirements for the general welfare of patients the expenditure on tobacco was reduced by one third from October, 1965. The resultant saving was transferred to the payment of additional gratuities to patients. It is not proposed to increase the issue of tobacco to patients.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. GEELONG WEST LOCOMOTIVE DEPOT:

SMOKE: VIBRATION AND NOISE

NUISANCES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong West) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. Whether the smoke nuisance emanating from the Pakington-street locomotive yards at Geelong West has been reduced over the last two years; if so-(a) to what extent; and (b) what future action is proposed to further reduce the nuisance?

2. What action is proposed, out of consideration for nearby residents, to reduce vibration and noise nuisances from diesel locomotives, particularly at night and weekends?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Transport).-The answers are-

1. (a) During the last two years, the number of steam locomotives operating at the depot has been reduced from an average of 24 a day to an average of 2 a day.

(b) Steam locomotives will continue to be withdrawn progressively until services in the area are operated completely by diesel traction.

2. It is proposed to transfer the depot to North Geelong when finance is available.

" OVERLAND" EXPRESS: CLUB CAR.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Minister of Transport-

Whether the Overland train to Adelaide ever included a "club" car; if so-(a) when it was discontinued and for what reasons; and (b) whether the Minister has any plans for again including such a car on the Overland as is provided on the Melbourne-Sydney trains?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Transport).-The answer is-

The Overland has never included a " club" car, nor are there any plans to provide such a car on the train.

NEWPORT WORKSHOPS: NEW TRAINS: EMPLOYEES : WAGES: PLANT AND MACHINERY: OUTSIDE CONTRACTS.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Fitzroy) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. Whether new trains will be built for the Victorian railways; if so-(a) how many; (b) when; and (c) in the event that they are to be built by outside contractors(i) when tenders will be called; and (ii) why the trains cannot be built in the Newport railways workshops?

2. How many tradesmen were employed in the Newport railways wQ.rkshops in 1956, and how many are employed there to-day?

3. How many workers (other than tradesmen) were employed in the Newport railways workshops in 1956, and how many are employed there to-day?

4. Since 1955, what steps have been taken to modernize plant and machinery at the Newport railways workshops?

5. What value of contracts was let to outside industry for rolling-stock (excluding locomotives) for the Victorian railways in the period 1956 to 1966?

6. If he will ascertain and inform the House the average weekly wage (excluding overtime) paid to tradesmen in the railways workshops in New South Wales, South Australia, and Victoria, respectively?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Transport).-The answers are-

1. No firm plans have yet been formulated for the provision of additional trains after the current order for 30 cc Harris" type suburban electric trains has been completed.

During my recent visit overseas, the latest developments in trains of these types were examined, and I anticipate that any further orders for

State Accident Insurance [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Office Land Bill. 1021

trains will incorporate improvements. The answers to the other questions are-

2. 1956 1966

1086 719 3. 1956 1966

1551 1392 4. During the period mentioned, an aver

age of $13,500 was spent each year in modernizing plant and machinery at Newport workshops.

5. $4,451,400. 6. This information in respect of New

South Wales and South Australia is not available. So far as Victoria is concerned, it could only be obtained through considerable research, and I ask the honorable member if he considers this is justified.

MORWELL NATIONAL PARK BILL. Mr. MANSON (Minister of State

Development) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to validate the purchase by the president councillors and ratepayers of the" Shire of Morwell of cer-tain land in the Parish of Yinnar and to provide that upon the surrender thereof to Her Majesty the said land shall be reserved as a site for a national park under the Land Act 1958 and declared to be a national park under the National Parks Act 1958 and for other purposes.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

GEE LONG HARBOR TRUST (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Geelong Harbor Trust Act 1958.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.


The debate (adjourned from October 5) on the motion of Mr. Balfour (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This is a simple Bill but one which, perhaps, requires some explanation of its background. It proposes to permit the sale, if necessary by private treaty, of the buildings at 412 Collins-street, Melbourne, which were until recently occupied by the State Insurance Offices. As the Minister of Lands stated in his secondreading speech, the premises were acquired by the State Accident Insurance Office in 1938 and, although the Minister made no mention of it, the 1965 annual report of the Insurance Commissioner discloses that the property cost £116,514.

Since 1938, the business of the Office has increased very considerably, and for the year ended 30th June, 1965, the premium income of the Office which is limited to workers compensation-amounted to £3,390,144. Separate from that office is the State Motor Car Insurance Office, which deals with third-party and comprehensive motor car insurances. These three classes of insurance are the only ones which the Government offices are entitled to write. Although the Act requires the cwo offices to be separate, and to keep separate accounts, and in no way to overlap or engage in interdepartmental dealings, they are under the one management. However, in 1938 the State Accident Insurance Office was the only one with sufficient funds to purchase these premises.

The growth of that office has been almost phenomenal, especially as it has had to compete in every way with the private insurance companies, and has been a most effective answer to those who say that Government enterprise is usually inefficient. Longterm members will remember that in 1957 the Committee of Public Accounts presented to this Parliament a report on the State Insurance Offices. To indicate the necessity for the erection of the new building last year, I quote from paragraph 40 of that report-

This gratifying extension has been achieved despite in recent years a total inadequacy of accommodation which has

1022 State Accident Insurance LASSEMBLY.] Office Land Bill.

forced the Insurance Commissioner to issue instructions that further expansion of the business was not to be encouraged. Your Committee inspected the office accommodation and was shocked at the conditions under which the staff were forced to work.

So, even at that time, the Office had inadequate accommodation, and the staff had to work under the most deplorable conditions. The progress of the offices was such, however, that the Committee said this-

The expense ratios of both offices are exceptionally low by comparison with those of other insurance companies operating in the same class of business.

The low expenses of management must reflect credit on the administrative staff of the Offices.

One ·could quote more passages to the same effect. In the light of the report in 1957, the Government was eventually compelled to do something and, in 1961, the Parliament passed the State Accident Insurance Office Act which provided for the investment of portion of the reserve fund for the purchase of land or buildings to permit of the continued efficient working of the State Accident Insurance Office. As a consequence, certain property at 480 Collins-street, Melbourne, was acquired. The building there was demolished, and in its place a really magnificent structure has been erected. I understand from the Insurance Commissioner that the total cost of the new structure, including the acquisition of the land, its clearing, and the erection of the new building, was approximately $3,000,000.

Last Friday, it was my privilege to be conducted on an inspection of the new building, and I can say that very great care has been taken in its layout. There is no overcrowding; in fact, there is room for expansion in the building. Further, the foundations have been so laid as to enable another nine stories to be added to the existing structure, if necessary, at any future time.

Mr. Clarey.

As the old premises at 412 Collinsstreet were no longer required, they were, on two occasions, offered for sale by auction. Apparently, the upset price has to be disclosed to the public, and on the first occasion, that price was fixed at $540,000. There was no bidder. On the second occasion, the upset price was $445,000, but again, unfortunately, there was no offer. I must admit that I believe--and I think that many honorable members will agree--that the centre of the City of Melbourne is becoming overcrowded with new office buildings. It has been difficult to obtain tenants for many of those which have been erected. In any case, the old insurance office building has been offered on two occasions without being sold. This Bill will enable the Government to deal by private treaty, if necessary, with a view to selling it.

I cannot offer any information to honorable members at this stage-the Government may know more than I do--but I am of the opinion that the building can be sold by treaty for about $445,000. However, that is immaterial; the point is that, the building having been offered by public auction twice, with the expense that involved, and no bid having been received, surely the logical course is to allow the Commissioner and the Government to make the best deal they can by private treaty. The building is of no further use so far as the insurance offices are concerned. In my opinion and in the opinion of those interested in meeting the situation, the amount which could be obtained from rent, on any long-term rental basis, would not be sufficient to warrant the retention of the building.

The Opposition raises no objection to the proposal embodied in the Bill. However, it again takes the opportunity to repeat its protest that, although a Bill dealing with the State insurance offices is before the House, the Government has up to date still failed to implement some of the

State Accident Insurance [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Office Land Bill. 1023

recommendations made by the allparty Committee of Public Accounts in 1957. For instance, the report indicated that greater efficiency could be achieved if the two State Insurance Offices were amalgamated and treated as one organization instead of being two completely separate organizations with separate staffs except for the Insurance Commissioner himself. The Committee of Public Accounts pointed out that it appreciated the suggestion of the Commissioner that advantages would be derived if the existing legislative restrictions preventing the amalgamation were removed. But, so far, the Government has done nothing about it.

Nor has the Government taken any notice of the representations made to that committee that the State Insurance Offices should not be shackled and compelled to take compulsory third-party insurance which other insurers were declining whilst, at the same time, they were not permitted to compete with the private insurance companies for other, profitable types of business. In this House, on the 27th September, in answer to a series of questions, the Chief Secretary informed me that, . at present, 239 companies were licenced to undertake insurance business-other than life assurance-in Victoria, and 44 of those remained on the list of 'authorized insurers for motor car third-party risks. In other words, 239 companies are registered to undertake ordinary insurance business, but only 44 of them will undertake third-party insurance risks. I was also informed that 40 companies had withdrawn from the list of authorized third-party insurance companies in the last ten years, and that seven had withdrawn within the last year. The underwriting loss of the State Motor Car Insurance Office on third-party insurances last year was $1,341,029

Surely, when bringing forward a Bill dealing with the State Insurance Offices, the Government should have taken steps to remove the restrictions on the operations of those offices so

that they could compete in the general field of insurance. The profits obtained in that wider field would help to offset the accumulated losses on third-party motor car business.

The Opposition raises no objection whatever to the proposal that the old building should be sold. It is perfectly obvious from the figures I have quoted that, even if the price has to be reduced slightly, the building will bring double what it cost in 1938. I am glad to say that the full proceeds of the sale are to be paid into the reserve funds of the State Accident Insurance Office. I would have thought that the Government, which claims that it is hard pressed for money, would have grabbed some portion of these proceeds. If this Bill is passed the Treasurer will not be able to do that now.


The' Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES (LIABILITY OF PATIENTS) BILL. The House went into Committee

for the further consideration of this Bill.

Discussion was resumed of clause 5, providing, inter alia-

(1) At the end of section 70 of the Principal Act,.. there shall be inserted the following section :-

"70A. (1) Notwithstanding anything in this Act or the regulations under this Act or any practice to the contrary a legally qualified medical practitioner to whom this section applies shall be entitled to recover from any patient who is an in-patient in a public bed in a public ward in a public hospital a fee (not being greater than the maximum fee (if any) prescribed in that behalf) for medical care and attention given to any such patient:

(2) This section shall apply to a legally qualified medical practitioner-

(a) who is employed on a part-time basis on the staff of a public hospital; or

(b) who is employed on a full-time basis on the staff of a public hospital as a specialist radiologist or pathologist under an

1024 Hospitals and Oharities [ASSEMBLY.] (Liability of Patients) Bill.

arrangement which provides for the sharing with the hospital of his income from fees received from patients in any private or intermediate ward wing or part of the hospital with the hospital."

and of Dr. Jenkins' amendment-That, in paragraph (b) of sub-section (2)

of proposed new section 70A, as set out in sub-clause (1), after the word II specialist" the words II physician or surgeon or as a ,: be inserted.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-Because of information I have received from the Minister of Immigra tion since this clause was last under consideration, I am prepared to withdraw my amendment.

By leave, the amendment was withdrawn.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immigration) .-1 move-

That, in sub-section (1) of proposed new section 70A, as set out in sub-clause (1) , after the words cc medical practitioner" the words cc or dentist" be inserted.

The amendment was agreed to, as were consequential amendments.


That, sub-section (2) of proposed new section 70A be omitted with the view of inserting the following sub-section :-

"(2) This section shall apply to a legally qualified medical practitioner or dentist-

(a) who holds any honorary office or appointment on the staff of a public hospital;

(b) who is employed on a part time basis on the staff of a public hospital; or

(c) who is employed on a full-time basis on the staff of a public hospital under an arrangement which provides for the sharing with the hospital of his income from fees received from patients in any private or intermediate ward or wing or part of the hospital."

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-When this clause was previously under consideration by the Committee, a number of suggestions were made concerning legally qualified medical practitioners who, under certain circumstances, might charge fees to patients occupying public beds. The

honorable member for Hawthorn suggested that the provisions of this clause should be extended not only to qualified medical practitioners, but also to dentists, as is the case with provisions in earlier amendments. The amendment which is now under consideration clearly provides that an honorary medical officer who receives no payment for his services at a hospital will be able to charge fees to accident victims occupying public beds. I hope this position will not continue for long and that Victoria will progress with the rest of the world to the stage when the practice of using honorary medical officers is almost non-existent because of the deficiencies associated with it.

Unfortunately, under the honorary medical system as we know it, there could be delays in the treatment of injured persons while the honorary is being called to the hospital. The amendment will also clarify the position of salaried specialists at hospitals. The provision, as drafted, refers only to radiologists and pathologists, whereas the amendment envisages legally qualified medical practitioners employed on a full-time basis on the staff of a hospital. The full-time salary which is paid to these specialists enables them to treat patients in public beds but, by arrangement, they also treat patients occupying beds in private or intermediate wards in these hospitals, and the fees received from these patients etre shared on an agreed basis between the hospital and the practitioner.

The amendment will allow a greater variety of medical specialists to take part in this scheme. Possibly, there will be an increase in the employment of specialists other than pathologists, radiologists and anaesthetists at our hospitals. It may be that the share of the fees and the income derived by the hospitals from these fees will develop to such an extent that it will be possible to extend accident services throughout the hospital system which will prove of

Hospitals and Oharities [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Liability of Patients) Bill. 1025

great benefit to the community, assisting both patients and the medical profession.

The amendment was agreed to, as was a consequential amendment, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 6 and 7.

Clause 8-Sub-section (2) of section 60 of the

Motor Car Act 1958 is repealed.


That the expression" Sub-section (2) of" be omitted.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were the remaining clauses.

The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and the amendments were adopted.


That this Bill be now read a third time.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-I propose to take the rather unusual course of speaking on the third reading, primarily' because I feel that some change of attitude has taken place concerning this Bill. All parties agree with the principle that when a person, who has been seriously injured either by another person's negligence or in the course of his employment, has been treated at one of these institutions, a statutory duty rests on the employer whereby the hospital is entitled to receive payment for the full bed costs involved. It has been suggested by various members that whilst the proposal will enable a hospital to receive the full bed costs, the Bill will do nothing to reduce the delays which will occur before the hospital receives these amounts. On mature consideration, it would appear that, if anything, the Bill will increase the delays which occur in this regard. It could cause differences between the hospital committees and the insurers in resolving the amounts which can be charged.

It would even appear that the hospital must give notice of the amount that the person who is entitled to receive compensation is! liable to pay in respect of maintenance or relief provided by the institution, whereas under the Workers Compensation Act, an injured person is not liable to pay-it is the employer who is liable-and possibly the hospitals cannot state an amount which the injured person is liable to pay by way of compensation to the hospital. The hospital which is serving the notice on the person who appears to be liable to pay may find that there is more than one person in this situation. This will lead to further delays, and, while the hospital might be able to claim a "nice" amount, it seems that the delays may well be increased. In the circumstances as envisaged, an insured person could be disadvantaged because of contributary negligence, and he may be placed in an awkward situation. Possibly, the demand by the hospital will also force the insured person to elect to proceed under the workers' compensation legislation, thereby losing his rights under common law.

It would seem that there are grave fears that this Bill may lead to an injured person being disadvantaged and, while all honorable members desire that hospitals shall receive full payment for beds, there is some concern that, although hospitals will eventually receive the relevant amount, there will be increased delays, and pressures will be exerted on the injured person, which will be quite unfair to him. The more one examines this measure, the more the position to which I refer becomes obvious. Even at this late stage, I feel that it is worth while voicing these fears concerning the likely outcome of the legislation.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-1 am inclined to agree with the comments of the honorable member for Reservoir. I do not think the Government's proposal will rectify


the situation which exists. Frequently, in matters of this type-this! all hinges around claims that are not. acceptable-there are two parties in dispute, and one or other of the parties will pay the compensation in the long run. It is reasonable to expect that an account will be issued, and, if there is a dispute concerning it and the matter goes to court, surely there could be an agreement to pay in a certain amount so that the hospital could obtain its fees. I do not know that this measure will rectify the situ~tion; as a matter of fact, it could have the opposite effect.

Pressure could be placed on a patient in hospital with respect to the' payment of his claims, and, under ordinary circumstances, when a person would not be charged the full fees because of his financial position, if it is known that there exists a case for the payment of compensation, the hospital could submit an account for the full amount. In addition, solicitors' fees would be charged. I do not understand how the Government thinks this proposal will assist the situation; I do not think it will.


Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immigration) .-Clause 3 provides, inter alia-

After section 74 of the Principal Act there shall be inserted the following section :-

I 74A. (1) In this section II compensation" means any payment which is by way of compensation or damages and is with respect to or includes compensation or damages for any maintenance or relief provided by a registered institution.

I move-That, in sub-section (1) of proposed new

section 74A, the words II any payment which is by way of compensation or damages and is with respect to or includes compensation or damages for any maintenance or relief provided by a registered institution" be omitted with the view of inserting the words II compensation or damages in or with respect to the death or illness of or bodily harm to a person" ...

The Minister of Health has intimated that this clause introduces a new section 74A to the Hospitals and

Charities Act 1958. This amendment deals with sub-section (1) of that new section. Sub-section (1) defines " compensation" for the purposes of. the remainder of section 7 4A and, as drafted in the Bill now before the House, before a hospital could collect fees for hospital care under the remaining provisions of the section it would be necessary for the terms governing any compensation or damages awarded specifically to contain some reference to a hospital fee con ... tent, or at least not to completely exclude such a content, by allotting the whole of the compensation or damages to something other than hospital fees. For example, cases could occur where the compensation or damages might be awarded specifically for, say, loss of income during incapacity or pain and suffering, with no reference to hospital attention.

The new definition of cc compensation " will enable the committee of a hospital to lodge a claim for fees, taking cognizance of the total sum that an injured person has received by way of compensation or damages, irresp~ctive of· the particular purposes for which the compensation may have been awarded. I make it clear that the present procedures will be retained. The Bill will in no .way allow or tend to allow ~ny patient ~o be victimized.

Dr .. JENKINS (Reservoir).-The proposed amendment was communicated to me by the Minister a week ago. It was examined by myself, my colleagues and persons interested in the legal position, and it was found to be unsatisfactory. Therefore, my party will oppose the amendment. I regret that the honorable gentleman would not allow us further time to consider the matter more fully and to propose effective amendments. It is in the clause to which this· amendment .applies that most of the problems will arise.

Whilst the amendment has some merit in altering the definition of compensation, it largely safeguards the hospitals' position rather

Hospitals and Oharities [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Liability of Patients) Bill. 1027

than that of the injured person. It will reduce the effective damages to the plaintiff by allowing the full claim. It does not solve the problem of the amount that the institution is able to claim from the injured person under workers compensation, which, as I have previously pointed out, may be nil. The arguments in relation to the hospital fees and the contents of the damages will remain, and further delays will be involved.

The question of contributory negligence within the circumstances of this definition will further disadvantage the injured person, whether it be a common law action or an action under workers compensation. The definition of "compensation" may be used by the hospital to force an injured person to elect at an early stage to take action under the Workers Compensation Act and he will thereby lose his right to claim under common law. I regret that the Opposition has not been allowed further time to prepare amendments which would solve some of these problems. We have endeavoured to show the utmost goodwill in dealing with this measure in o'rder to help the hospitals, but we cannot accept the amendment proposed by the Minister.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-This amendment does not solve the problem. To do justice to our deliberations, the three parties in this Committee should get together to give this measure more mature consideration than it has been given up to the present. The amendment will still throw the onus on the defendant and I am concerned about its implications. The debate should be adjourned to enable discussions to be held, and something more acceptable could be presented to the House.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond).-Can the Minister of Immigration, who is in charge of this Bill for the Government, inform the House what will be its effects relating to hospital

administration? The amendment contemplates no action being taken by the hospital until the results of litigation are known. Therefore, it is hard to understand how hospital administration will substantially improve. I do not want to embarrass the Minister of Immigration, but I hope he can give honorable members details of the day-to-day administration of the hospitals under the pro· posed amendment.

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immigration) .-The Government sees no reason why the amendment should not be proceeded with, and if the Country Party and the Opposition wish to discuss the matter with the Minister of Health, they can do so before the Bill is introduced in another place.

The honorable member for Richmond knows that I could not answer his question. However, I shall refer his remarks to the Minister of Health who may be able to discuss the matter with him before the Bill is debated in another place.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond) (By leave) .-1 do not wish to embarass the honorable gentlemen, but it seems to be extraordinary that no explanation can be offered to honorable members as to how this rne~sure is to be administered. He has said that our suggestions could be put to the • Minister of Health before the Bill is debated in another place. I register my protest because it is a substantial diminution of the rights and prerogatives of this House.

The House divided on the question that the words proposed by Mr. Rossiter to be omitted stand part of the clause (Sir William McDonald in the chair)-

Ayes 26 Noes 36

Majority for the amendment" 10

1028 Hospitals and Oharities [ASSEMBLY.] (Liability of Prdients) Bill.

AYES.

Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Floyd Mr. Ginifer Mr. Holland Sir Herbert Hyland Dr. Jenkins Mr. Lovegrove Mr. McDonald

(Rodney) Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss

Mr. Mutton Mr. Ring Mr. Schintler Mr. Stirling Mr. Stoneham Mr. Sutton Mr. Trezise Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. Phelan. Mr. Holding

NOES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Birrell Mr. Bloomfield Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Borthwick Mr. Christie Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mr. Gibbs Mr. Hudson Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Mr. McCabe Mr. MacDonald

(Burwood) Mr. McLaren Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher

Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reid

(Box Hill) Mr. Reid

(Dandenong) Mr. Rossiter Mr. Rylah Mr. Scanlan Mr. Stephen Mr. Suggett Mr. Tanner Mr. Taylor Mr. Trethewey Mr. Wheeler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers: Mr. Holden Mr. Stokes.

PAIR.

Mr. Divers I Mr. Gainey.

The amendment was agreed to. Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immi

gration) .-Sub-section (7) of proposed new section 74A, relating to the rights of institutions to recover fees from third parties, is a follows:-

This section does not apply to the payment of any compensation pursuant to the provisions of the Workers Compensation Act 19'58 except compensation paid pursuant to section 26 of that Act.

I move-That, in proposed new sub-section (7) of

section 74A, the words "This section" be omitted with the view of inserting the following:-

.. (7) The payment of moneys into court pursuant to the rules of the court by or on behalf of the person liable to pay compensation shall be deemed not to be a payment in contravention of this section if notice of the payment into court is given personally or by post within three days of the day on which the payment into court is made to the commit-

tee of the registered institution which served notice upon the person liable to pay compensation and notice of the claim of the registered institution is endorsed upon the notice relating to the payment into court given to the person entitled to receive compensation or to his solicitor.

(8) Where any person who takes money out of court on behalf of the person entitled to receive compensation has notice pursuant to this section of the claim of a registered institution he shall not pay to or on behalf of the person entitled to receive compensation the whole or any part of such money until-

(a) the amount claimed by the committee or such lesser amount as is directed to be paid by the Minister in any particular case has been paid to the committee; or

(b) the Minister or the committee has consented in writing to the payment of such moneys to the person entitled to receive compensation.

(9) This section".

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir).-The Opposition has considered this amendment· and has come to the concl~sion that it provides protection only for the defendants, particularly the insurance companies, because once the payment is made into court they can wipe their hands of the matter. One difficulty which arises is that if a plaintiff is in necessitous circumstances-in these cases he usually is-he accepts the payment as settlement, but receives a hospital bill which may be outrageous in amount. He may well pay this bill in order to receive quickly the amount of damages.

Argument on this account from the hospital could lead to further delay, and the hospital and the plaintiff could wait a long time for their money. A legally qualified friend of mine has made the fine point that the words " any person who takes money out of court on behalf of the person entitled to compensation" could provide a way around the provision, for the plaintiff might take the compensation direct. Another important aspect is that the onus to pay the hospital accounts rests with the plaintiff's solicitor. This means that

Hospitals and Oharities [18 OCTOBER. 1966.] (Liability of Patients) Bill. 1029

any arguments or discussions with the hospital in regard to the amount of the account must be carried out by the solicitor, and this will lead to an increase in the plaintiff's legal costs and a reduction in the amount of compensation which he eventually receives.

Further, it affects cases involving contributory negligence. Under the proposal as contained in the amendment, the plaintiff will be in a difficult position in such a case. If no legal action was involved, the victim of an accident would be treated at the hospital and charged the public rate, but where legal action is involved there is a possibility that the hospital costs will be assessed at the actual bed costs. The result could be that, if it were found that the plaintiff was 85 per cent. responsible, he will, under the contributory negligence provisions of the law, be in a far worse position than he otherwise would have been.

The amendment adds nothing to the Bill; it does not protect the injured person but gives advantages to the defendants. In addition, it will reduce the effective compensation that the injured person may receive, and it does nothing to stem the delays that occur in the payment of hospital accounts. I emphasize that it is not only the absolute amount that the hospitals lose in such cases; they also suffer because of the long delays that occur in effecting payment of accounts which the hospitals carry for years.

The amendment does nothing to correct that aspect despite the fact that suggestions have been put forward by the honorable member for Flemington and the Leader of the Country Party that the Bill should be amended in order to cover such circumstances. So, partly as a protest against the fact that the Oppos~ ition has not been given ample time in which to prepare adequate amendments to correct that position, the Opposition will not support the amendment.

Mr. PHELAN (Kara Kara).-Like the previous amendment, this one has been brought before the House in a somewhat hasty manner, and I lodge my protest against this action. Sufficient time has not been allowed to enable it to be fully considered.

Mr. ROSSITER.-The Leader of the Country Party was given a copy of the amendments last week.

Mr. PHELAN.-I appreciate that, and I had an opportunity to look at them about an hour before our party meeting, but it now appears that further amendments, of which no notice has been given, have been submitted. I can foresee some diffiicult problems arising if this amendment is agreed to. As the honorable member for Reservoir stated, the hospital charges could be much higher than they would be if they had been pre-determined under workers compensation liability. 1 should like to know at what point of time the legal responsibility on the person injured will be exercised when he finds himself faced with these excessive claims. The fact that the plaintiff's solicitor must handle the negotiations is unreasonable and dictatorial. It involves the injured person in legal costs and is an admission by the Government that what is proposed by the amendment is complex. It certainly must be complex if the services of a legally qualified person are required before an account can be paid.

Surely Parliament will not condone such a principle. Instead of attempting to bulldoze this Bill through the House, the Government should agree to the debate being adjourned so that the matter can be fully considered. That would be the least it could do in the interests of the public.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -I support what the honorable member for Kara Kara has said. Two of the most important fields of litigation today involve motor car accident cases, on the one hand, and workers compensation cases on the other hand. This is probably one of the


most important Bills to come before the House for many years, and members of both the Opposition and the Country Party are desirous of ensuring that it is passep in a satisfactory form so that the person who has sustained severe physical and personal injuries and who may be deprived of his living will not be subjected to further disabilities.

Members of the Opposition have been in constant contact with the Government in an endeavour to have the debate adjourned for a further week to enable adequate admendments to be drafted, but the Government has refused all such requests. As I understood him, the Minister of Immigration said that he did not know what the Bill meant. Surely this is not only a great travesty of justice so far as pedestrians and motorists are concerned, but also a denial of democracy. Apparently the Minister of Health, who is in another place, has brought forward a most extreme piece of legislation, and has sen.t it into this House under the care of a Minister of Immigration who does not know what effect it will have. If the Country Party pleads that something should be done about the matter, it is told there is no time to do it. It has been demonstrated that the Opposition does not have the numbers to be effective, but I register my protest against a denial of justice and democracy in this Chamber.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond) .~I support the protests of my colleagues at the way in which this matter has been handled by the Government. I should like to correct something which the Minister of Immigration said by way of an interjection in relation to the statement of the honorable member for. Brunswick West that the Minister said he " did not know." The Minister moved an amendment which concerned the whole question of how the system was to operate. I asked him a very simple question: Whether

he could explain the view of the Government on how the administrative procedures under this Bill would be carried out? His answer to that was perfectly frank; he said he could not. He suggested that, if any honorable member on the Opposition side of the House had any suggestion to make or wished to propose any amendment, he should "tick tack" in the corridors with a Minister who sits in another place, and that it would be given consideration in that place.

As a member of this Assembly, I support members of the Country Party and other members of the Opposition who are endeavouring to preserve the prerogatives and functions of this House. Those prerogatives require that, when a Minister speaks to a Bill or moves an amendment to it, he knows what is in the Bill, is able to answer the questions of all honorable members, and is able to explain the policies and principles of the Bill. In this situation, the Minister is not in that position, and he freely and candidly admits it.

Mr. PHELAN . ...:.....We will not criticize him for being honest.

Mr. HOLDING.-I do not blame the Minister. I blame this Government which continually treats this House and this Parliament with contempt.

Mr. TURNBuLL.-And this State.

Mr. HOLDING.-And, if I may' repeat the phrase of my colleague, this State. As all honorable members of this House represent the' people of this State, if we are treated with contempt, it is the people who are tre~ted with contempt.

The honorable member for Reservoir has expressed many grave objections to and many doubts about this Bill. The honorable member asked the Minister to allow more time for the consideration of the Bill. He might well have asked for more time so that the Minister himself could become acqainted

Hospitals and Oharities [18 OCTOBER} 1966.] (Liability of Patients) Bill. 1031

with details of this Bill and with what the Government was trying to do. But, of course, no time was given. We now have before us a Bill which has become a series of amendments, and the Minister handling the Bill for the Government does not know what is in it. However, the Government will use its numbers to pass this legislation. There is no point in any honorable member on the Opposition side of the House, or any honorable member of the Country Party, or any back-bench member of the Liberal Party, who may have grave reservations about the Bill, joining in the debate on the issues and principles involved, because one cannot join issue with a Minister who says he does not know what is in the Bill.

The very nature of the Parliamentary processes, and particularly that of debates, requires that if an allegation is made or supported on one side, it is met on the other. If any honorable member raises a query or a matter of principle, the Minister should be able to answer him. But this incompetent Government considers that it does not matter that important questions have been raised about this legislation, which can vitally affect hospital administration throughout this State, and which has been the subject of substantial criticism, not only by hospital authorities but also by members of the legal profession, as well as by honorable members of this House. As far as the Government is con~erned, it is good enough for a Minister to come to this House, read some prepared notes, and then stand in this place and say: "I do not know what is in the Bill; do not bother to ask me; if you have any objections, take it up with somebody in the other House."

Parliamentary democracy can work only when Ministers are prepared to accept the view that being a member of Cabinet involves the respon~ibi1ity of defending the Government's legislation .in this

House. That is not a responsibility to be accepted only by the Minister at the table; it is a responsibility of all members of Cabinet. The present Government has evaded its obligations, and it is tearing down the very prerogatives and privileges of this Chamber when it says that, if I h~ve something to say about the Bill, I, as a member of this House, can go into the lobby and "tick tack" with the Minister for Health in another place. I came into this Chamber, elected by the people of Richmond, to voice my criticism of Government legislation, and to do my job on my feet in this Chamber, face to face with the Ministers of the Government. I will not reduce my responsibilities, as Ministers are apparently prepared to reduce theirs, by running around the lobbies-that is not my function.

This is a deplorable day in the history of this House, and I hope that what has happened does not happen again. However, I can have no confidence that it will not, because it is typical of the lackadaisical and incompetent way in which this Government goes about its business.

The House divided on the question that the words proposed by Mr. Rossiter to . be omitted stand part of the clause (Sir William McDonald in the chair)-

Ay.es 27 Noes 36

Majority for the amendment 9

AYES.

Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Floyd Mr. Ginifer Mr. Holding Mr. Holland Sir. Herbert Hyland Dr. Jenkins Mr. Lovegrove Mr. McDonald

(Rodney) Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss

Mr. Mutton Mr. Phelan Mr. Ring Mr. Schintler Mr. Stoneham Mr. Sutton Mr. Trewin Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. Stirling Mr. Trezise.

1032 Water (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY. ] Bill.

NOES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Birrell Mr. Bloomfield Sir. Henry Bolte Mr. Borthwick Mr. Christie Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mr. Holden Mr. Hudson Mr. Jona Mr. Loxton Mr. McCabe Mr. MacDonald

(Burwood) Mr. McLaren Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher

Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reid

(Box Hill) Mr. Reid

(Dandenong) Mr. Rossiter Mr. Rylah Mr. Scanlan Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Mr. Suggett Mr. Tanner Mr. Taylor Mr. Trethewey Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

Tellers: Mr. Gibbs Mr. Wheeler.

PAIR. Mr. Divers I Mr. Gainey.

The amendment was agreed to.

It was ordered that the Bill be transmitted to the Council.

WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL. The debate (adjourned from

October 5) on the motion of M~. Darcy (Minister of Water Supply) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) .-Frequently, Bills amending the Water Act are of extreme importance and have farreaching consequences. This Bill contains 17 clauses, and its provisions affect 25 sections of the principal Act. The general purpose of the amendments is to improve administrative procedures. As the Minister of Water Supply indicated in his second-reading speech, requests for SOme of the amendments were made to the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission by the Waterworks Trusts Association of Victoria. I suggest that if the Minister should introduce similar Bills into the House in future, he should explain them clause by clause. He gave only a general description of this measure; consequently, those who wish to determine whether the amendments are of importance have

to delve into the 25 sections affected. I have undertaken this research, and I am forced to the conclusion that the time of the House should not be occupied to any great extent in my adding to the explanation of the Minister of the proposals contained in the Bill.

Clause 2 proposes amendments to section 12 of the principal Act, which relates to private works on streams. At present, the Commission cannot satisfactorily supervise the operation of private waterworks in respect of the operation of an outlet valve under conditions when there is only a small inflow, which, according to law, should be allowed to pass down stream to other landholders. The purpose of paragraph (c) of clause 2 is to amend sub-section (4) of section 12 of the principal Act, and, when amended, that provision will read, inter alia-

Any person-who fails to operate remove or alter

any such works weir or dam in accordance with a notice given to him pursuant to this section-

shall be guilty of an offence against this Act.

Clause 4 proposes amendments to section 72 of the principal Act, which relates to subdivisions that are carried out in irrigation areas. Subparagraph (ii) of paragraph (a) provides for the insertion, in paragraph (c) of sub-section (1) of section 72, of the words-and for the provision of access to or. with~ in each such allotment by means of a crossing or other suitable structure and, when amended, that provision will read, inter alia-On receipt of such notice and plan the Commission shall notify the applicant of-

(i) any modification required by the Commission to be made in the plan;

(ii) The nature and extent of all works which it will be necessary for the Commission to construct for the supply of water to each such allotment and the measurement of water so supplied for the drainage of water from each such allotment and for the provision of access to or within each such allotment by means of a crossing or other suit· able structure. • • .

Water (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1033

It is remarkable that this provision was not embodied In the principal Act when it was amended previously.

The amendments proposed by clause 9 are of general interest. Sub-clause (2) proposes a new section 135A.-

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in section 134 or section 135 where a matter before a waterworks trust relates to a contract or proposed contract with or work to be done by an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty persons the Governor in Council, upon the request of the waterworks trust, may by Order perinit any commissioner who is a member of the company to take part in the discussion and to vote upon the matter if without him and other members in like case there would not be sufficient commissioners available to form a quorum of the waterworks trust.

I understand that a case arose in the Western District where it was proposed to amend an agreement between a food processing factory and the water trust, and it was found that when the directors of the processing company were debarred from taking part in the discussion no quorum was present. It is proper that in such circumstances provision should be made, subject to the approval of the Governor in Council, for such members to take part in the discussion. As the Minister of Water Supply pointed out in his second-reading speech, the proposed new sub-section is similar to a provision in the Local Government Act. The Opposition offers no objection to this proposal. I repeat that this Bill contains a large number of important procedural matters, and that there is no need to discuss it at length. The Opposition has carefully examined the Bill and offers no objection to it.

Mr. STIRLING (Swan Hill).-This Bill proposes amendments to the Water Act, which is a large enactment that is of considerable importance to Victoria and to its people. It" is important that such legislation should operate successfully. Since the Water Act was first placed on the statute-book, there have been

many changes in the use and application of water, and more efficient methods have been introduced both by the Commission and by the landholder. As changes take plac.e, it becomes necessary to amend the principal Act from time to time. I have studied the Bill, and I agree with the suggested amendments. Some of them are necessary to give greater clarification. Others have been suggested by the Waterworks Trusts Association of Victoria. I am sure that the proposed amendments will improve the Water Act and allow a better use of water in this State.

The legislation provides for the control of dams constructed on streams, and, in this regard, I do not think there has been a great deal of trouble. However, at times selfish people pay no regard to the rights of others, and it is reasonable that the rights of all users should be protected. Each landholder should be assured of his rights under the Act.

Difficulties have been encountered in the past as a result of commissioners being disqualified from taking part in discussions, and the provision to overcome this difficulty is warranted. We should ensure that everything that is necessary to achieve proper control of waterworks, waterworks trusts and irrigation is provided. For those reasons I support the Bill. In discussions on the measure with many people associated with irrigation and waterworks trusts, not one person raised any point of objection or dissented in anyway with the proposed legislation that is before the House.



Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Damage from works). Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West).

-This clause contains an extraordinary proposal. It is most

1034 Water (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

unusual to permit a person to dodge his own liability by getting someone else to do certain work. Sub-section (1) of section 12 of the Water Act provides-

The Commission may grant to the owner or occupier of any land adjacent to any river creek stream or water-course permission to construct at the expense of such owner or occupier-

(a) w0rks for the protection of such land from damage by erosion or flooding; or

(b) a weir or dam in such river creek stream or water-course.

It will be appreciated that if such works are not carried out properly they could result in damage being caused to neighbours of the persons who are permitted to construct them. The following sub-section, (IA), provides-

Any such permission may be granted subject to compliance by the owner or occupier with such conditions as the Commission thinks fit relating to the nature and extent of the works weir or dam, the standards of construction and maintenance of the works weir or dam and the operation of the works weir or dam and of any works associated with the works weir or dam.

Then in the following sub-section, it is provided that-

Neither. the Commission nor the Crown shall be liable for any damage resulting from any works carried out pursuant to any such permission.

Of course, what is in the minds of those who administer the Act is that certain works which are permitted may· cause grave damage to the property of a neighbour. Such works could be harmful in many different ways. The Commission is being given the opportunity to say that this was· not within the nature of· the work that it authorized to be done. The proposed amended version of sub-section (2) of section 12 of the Water Act provides-

Neither the Commission nor the Crown shall be liable for any damage resulting from anything done or purported to be done under this section. From the legal point of view this is an extraordinary position.

Mr. Turnbull.

Mr. Moss.-This is the point I wished to raise.

Mr. TURNBULL.-I shall not trespass on the domain of the Leader of the Country Party. Surely if the Commission grants permission for work to be done, and it has bad effects, the Commission should be liable within the ordinary concept of the law. For example, if a person wanted to construct some work outside his home in the street, is it suggested that by employing an independent contractor, who could be negligent, the householder would not be liable for any damage? The whole concept of the law is that if one cares to do dangerous things from which damage is likely to ensue, one cannot rid oneself of the liability relating thereto by employing an independent contractor. The State Rivers and Water Supply Commission is a statutory body that is well equipped to carry out its duties. If the Commission grants permission of this nature, it ought to be responsible if negligence or damage occurs. What is proposed is completely contrary to the concept of the law, and is a dangerous precedent to incorporate in an Act of Parliament.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-The honorable member for Swan Hill, who is handling the Bill on behalf of the Country Party, made a valuable contribution to the secondreading debate. Pursuing the point raised by the honorable member for Brunswick West, under the existing Act the State Rivers and Wafer Supply Commission has partial liability. Now it is proposed to absolve the Commission from any liability whatsoever under section 12 of the principal Act. As the honorable member for Brunswick West pointed out, if the Commission has power to authorize the execution of certain works and to direct that certain works shall be altered, surely it should accept some responsibility for its· actions in this respect. . Under section 13 of the Water Act, the Commission is entitled to institute

Water (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1035

proceedings against persons who do certain things. I feel that there should be a quid pro quo, and I cannot see anything wrong with the existing provision contained in section 12. I should like the Minister to provide the Committee with some explanation, some specific reasons why it is necessary to absolve the Commission from its responsibility in this way.

Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water Supply) .-The Opposition and the Country Party are concerned that the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission should be fully responsible for anything that might occur following the construction of some works on a stream. I point out that, from a practical point of view, several hundreds of such constructions may be permitted throughout the State. This type of work is requested by landholders, and after the Commission has inspected the site the works are carried out in accordance with conditions that it lays down. More than one thing could happen following the construction. The works may fail because they are badly constructed, in which event there may be some responsibility attributable to the Commission. But in many other instances throughout the State neighbours downstream may consider that the work affects them to an undue degree. For example, some works may be carried out in the middle of the night. One could not expect the Commission to be responsible for things that might happen in that way. The real purpose of the amendment contained in clause 2 is to ensure that people can be. compelled to install properly a weir and a pipe to allow a summer flow downstream, but it was found that the Commission had no power under the Act to make the parties concerned operate the pipe. That is one of the important features of this clause. I do not think the Committee should attempt to amend the clause at this stage. It has been universally approved, and I think it should be left as it is.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-1 admit that the case cited by the Minister is a valid one, but the situation goes a long way further than the Minister stated. In fact, I think the honorable gentleman has missed the point. I regret that I did not make myself clearer. Section 12 of the Water Act provides, inter alia-

(1) The Commission may grant to the owner or occupier of any land adjacent to any river creek stream or water-course permission to construct at the expense of such owner or occupier-

(a) works for the protection of such land from damage by erosion or flooding; or

(b) a weir or dam in such river creek stream or water-course.

(IA) Any such permission may be granted subject to compliance by the owner or occupier with such conditions as the Commission thinks fit relating to the nature and extent of the works weir or dam, the standards of construction and maintenance of the works weir or dam and the operation of the works weir or dam and of any works associated with the works weir or dam.

(2) Neither the Commission nor the Crown shall be liable for any damage resulting from any works carried out pursuant to any such permission.

The latter provision, contained in sub-section (2), is being amended to read-

Neither the Commission nor the Crown shall be liable for any damage resulting from anything done or purported to be done under this section.

The section continues-(3) The Commission may by notice in

writing to the owner or occupier of any such land direct that any such works be removed or altered subject to such conditions as the Commission thinks fit and within such period as is specified in the notice

Then the section proceeds to· cover what is actually required by the Commission, and provision is made for penalties. It is rather one-sided to suggest that the Commission should be able to direct all these things and to refuse permission for the carrying out of certain works, and at the same time to assert that it should have no responsibility in this situation. Of course, the Commission must have a responsibility.

1036 Water (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

In my opinion, the provision would be better left as it is because it provides for a partial responsibility on the part of the COlnmission. What i~ proposed absolves the Commission from any responsibility whatsover, whereas under section 13 the Commission is entitled to take proceedings against certain people. I do not think the proposal is fair. There are other circumstances associated with it. It may be a weir, or a pipe, or something else----some sort of construction to do various things in a watercourse or adjacent to a watercourse-and all sorts of complications could arise. The Committee should have a second look at this provision because, as the honorable member for Benalla points out, it is wide open.

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). -From reading the Minister's explanatory second-reading speech, it appears to me that this is an attempt by the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission to evade its responsibilities under the Act. As members of the Country Party are aware, if any damage results from any works undertaken by the Commission, the onus of proof lies on the Commission. Although this situation has not been particularly satisfactory so far as the Commission is concerned, it has widespread support among irrigators. If the irrigators appreciated that an attempt was being made in this measure to allow the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission to evade its responsibilities and to shift the onus of proof, they would desire further consideration to be given to this clause.

As the Leader of the Country Party pointed out, this provision relates to works undertaken by private individuals. They must obtain the consent of the Commission before they can undertake the particular works mentioned, particularly on a stream. The question arises as to what is a watercourse. I know from experience that there are quite a few differing interpretations of " watercourse".

The Dandenong Valley Authority, as the honorable member for Moorabbin is aware, adopts an interpretation that is different from that of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. The Board of Works has another interpretation, and perhaps other bodies connected with the supply and distribution of water also have other interpretations. I take it that the word "stream" under the Act means a permanent running stream. A watercourse could be dry at various times and for considerable periods, but as I understand the position a stream is one that is flowing continually, finds its way into a main channel or river, and consequently is under the full control of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. Watercourses exist on many farm properties throughout the State. I have no doubt that many farm dams have been built without the permission of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission on watercourses.

I can appreciate that, when a dam is constructed on a stream, it is essential that a valve should be situated at the base of the dam. Under the Act it is provided that, in the summer time, the intake into the dam must be permitted to flow through the valve; in other words, the number of cusecs flowing into the dam must be allowed to flow out of the valve during the dry summer period to make provision for the requirements of neighbors downstream. In his second-reading speech the Minister pointed out that some farmers are greedy and do not allow that water to flow through the valve so 'that their neighbors do not receive the water to which they are entitled. Apparently, under the existing legislation the Commission has not the power to prosecute a farmer who closes the valve and does not allow water to go downstream.

Mr. DARCY.-The Commission is not certain of the legal position.

Water (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1037

Mr. FENNESSY.-A question arose as to the legal situation, and I understand that this Bill will give the Commission the necessary power. The point raised by the honoraqle member for Brunswick West-who was supported by the Leader of the Country Party-related to the question of damage resulting from works for the construction of which permission was given by the Commission.

Mr. TURNBULL.-It relates to any damage resulting from anything done "or purported to be done".

Mr. FENNESSY.-That is so. If the Commission received a written report from a farmer stating that he had carried out certain works, which the Commission did not inspect, and some damage resulted from those works, the Commission could claim that it had no responsibility in the matter because it had been notified in writing that the works were done or were purported to have been done.

As the Leader of the Country Party pointed out, it is generally accepted that the onus of proof rests on the Commission in relation to any works that it constructs. I realize from experience that the Commission is not altogether happy about this sItuation. Some time ago, legislation was introduced which was designed to shift the onus of proof so that if a court case resulted a farmer would have the task of proving that the Commission was responsible. The existing situation is that the Commission has to prove that it. is not responsible for any damage resulting from its works. The Commission undertakes channelling and other works throughout the State. At times, channels overflow and farmers in the irrigation areas suffer consequential damage. In view of the doubts that have been expressed in this debate, the Minister should give further consideration to this clause.

Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water Supply) .-The honorable member for Brunswick West is not concerned

Session 1966.-36

whether a farm'er should be allowed to construct a dam on a creek, but he wishes to ascertain that the legal situation is clear. The Leader of the Country Party has expressed his opposition to this clause. The honorable member for Brunswick East touched on the nub of the whole situation when he pointed out that the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission is responsible and must be held to be responsible for the works that it constructs. I point out that the Commission does not undertake for farmers the construction of weirs or dams on creeks.

Mr. SToNEHAM.-1f it did so, it would be Commission work and not private work.

Mr. DARCY.-That is the pOint I wish to make. Many farmers throughout the State wish to undertake this type of work. If the Commission were forced to accept responsibility for such works, it would ha ve to undertake their construction, which would entail the taking of surveys, and so on, and perhaps som'e red tape, with the result that fewer dams would be built on creeks. The situation is that the Commission does not undertake the construction of such works; it allows the farmers to do the work, although it provides them with plans, supervision and so on. Therefore, the Commission should not be held' liable for any damage that might result from such works.

Mr. CAMPBELL TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-1 am indebted to the Minister for his lucid explanation of the point that I raised.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.



1038 National Gallery of [ASSEMBLY. ] Victoria Bill.

NATIONAL GALLERY OF VICTORIA BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 5) on the motion of Mr. Porter (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-At first sight, the Bill may appear to be complex, but I believe that closer consideration will show it to be comparatively simple. According to the Minister of Public Works, who introduced this measure, the Bill has a threefold purpose and, for reasons of convenience, I shall adopt his words. The honorable gentleman stated-

The purposes of this Bill are, first to create a body corporate under the name of the National Gallery Council of Victoria; secondly, to provide a separate Act relating to the National Gallery of Victoria; and, thirdly, to make appropriate provision for the transfer of the National Gallery of Victoria from the present site in Swanston-street to the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre.

As if reflecting the high intellectual level of the population, the building which will house the Gallery and other units of the centre is in the electorate of Albert Park, and is partly nearing completion on land which was for many years known as " Wirth's Park." By the Melbourne South Land Act 1946, this was excised from the municipality of South Melbourne, whose council readily agreed to the proposal. But that measure was never proclaimed. The next few years were prolific of talk and sterile of accomplishment.

Then came the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre Act 1956, by which was set up a committee that was authorized to erect a suitable building and raise funds in connexion therewith. A sum of one and a quarter million dollars has been raised.

This committee, which takes its name from the Act, will continue to operate after the establishment of the National Gallery Council; that is, it and the council will co-exist, having

clearly defined separate functions. What mayor will happen when the Gallery is moved remains a matter of speculation, and I do not think it need detain us in discussion now.

The building committee consists of nine persons appointed by the Governor in Council. The council will have a similar number of members similarly appointed. As provided by clause 6 of the Bill, it will be constituted as follows:-

(a) one shall be a person holding a senior academic office in a University in Victoria;

(b) one shall be a person representing country art galleries within Victoria;

( c) one shall be a person who in the opinion of the Minister is distinguished in the field of business administration;

(d) one shall be a person who in the opinion of the Minister is distinguished in the field of finance;

(e) five others shall be nominated by the Minister.

Honorable members who compare the Bill with the 1956 Act will observe that, to some extent, representation on the committee will be duplicated on the council. Country art galleries are represented on the committee and a place has been found for them to be represented on the council. On the committee, there is the Professor of Fine Arts in the University of Melbourne; on the council there will be "a person holding a senior academic office in a university in Victoria."

Bearing in mind the separate functions of the two bodies to which I have referred, it is not likely that for the time being, at all events, there will be a clash of interests beween them. On the contrary, their compositions may be of mutual value and this situation may continue until an Act is made which will embrace the whole site and all activities on it.

The functions of the council are set out in clause 13 of the Bill and seem to be appropriate. Clause 14 contains some provisions which Parliament assented to last March at the request of the Gallery trustees and

National Gallery of [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Victoria Bill. '1039

which were embodied in an Act with a marathon title-State Library National Gallery National Museum and Institute of Applied Science (Amendment) Act 1966.

Any trustee of the Gallery will be eligible for appointment as a member of the council if he is not of or over the age of 72 years. The Director of the Gallery is to be also the chief executive officer of the council. That is a wise decision, just as it was a wise decision to make the Chief Librarian of the State Library chief executive officer of the Library Council.

The building occupied by the three governmental institutions in Swanston-street and the land upon which it is erected, are vested in the building trustees, who comprise two representatives of each of two boards of trustees and the Library Council. The building trustees have prescribed rights and responsibilities, and hold certain moneys.

When this Bill is passed and comes into force on a day or days to be proclaimed, the National Gallery trustees will go out of office. The Gallery will cease to be a member of the board of building trustees, and the money standing to the credit of those trustees will be apportioned among the three constituent bodies. The National Gallery Council will get two-fifths of the moneys on hand.

We all know what an art gallery is. Broadly, it is a place where oil paintings, water colours, sketches, etchings, statuary, period furnishings and objects of art generally are displayed for public view. But what is a Cultural Centre? Again, we all know what "culture" means-until we are asked to define the word; we then find, as the Minister of Education pointed out by way of interjection during the debate on the National Art Gallery and Cultural Centre Act 1956, tha t a precise definition is impossible.

" To Hell with Culture": these are not my profane or philistinish words; they make up the title of a small but

vigorously written book by the distinguished art critic, Sir Herbert Read.

"Even the Greeks hadn't a name for it", he says. "It would never have occurred to them that they had a separate commodity, culture, something to be acquired by superior people with sufficient time and money, something to be given a trademark by their academicians. ' It could not even be described as a byproduct of their way of life. It was that way of life itself."

Suppose we leave it at that-" a way of life "-and let superior people inject some other meaning into it. But the title "Cultural Centre" is hideous. Whatever" culture" means or does not mean, it relates to things of the spirit and not to material things; though the "cultural revolution" in China is taking a viciously material shape. I seem to remember that the Premier expressed the opinion that the Centre might be named the Art or Arts Centre, and I have not been able to think of a better name for it. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).The Country Party supports this Bill, because it is quite obvious that with the removal of the present Art Gallery from its old home in the Museum building to the new Cultural Centre across the Yarra river, machinery must be created not only to end one body, as it were, to start another body, but also to assure that this body will function in its new site, and general provision has been made to accomplish that purpose. The only aspect on which the Country Party feels there is need for comment is an apparent discrepancy in the Minister's second-reading speech-the honorable gentleman might explain it in the Committee stage-when he said-

Of the eight persons to be appointed to the council, one will be a person holding a senior academic office in a university ,in Victoria, one will be a person representing art galleries situated and conducted' outside the metropolitan area as defined within ~e meaning of the Town and Country Plannmg

1040 National Gallery of [ASSEMBLY.] Victoria Bill.

Act 1961, and two will be persQlls who, in the opinion of the Minister, are distinguished, respectively, in the fields of finance and business administration. The other four persons will be appointed on the nomination of the Minister.

Paragraph (e) of· sub-clause (1) of clause 6 of the Bill, which relates to the composition of the proposed new council, states-

Five others shall be nominated by the Minister.

I shall be interested to know why four members are specified in the Minister's second-reading speech and five members in the Bill. This is another example of the slovenly work one expects from this Government ..

Provision is also made in clause 6 for one member of the new council to represent country art galleries within Victoria. The present representative of country art galleries is Mr. William Richie of Ballarat. He is an excellent connoisseur of art; and although he also conducts a wine shop, he really pulls his weight. We should be happy to see Mr. Richie continue in this work. At the same time, I believe that there should be an increase in the number of country representatives on the council.

In recent years there has been a tremendous upsurge of interest in art in country areas. The art displays have been diverse. Recently, an art exhibition was held at Corryong, and I was astounded that, apart from the excellent exhibits sent from the National Gallery, there were over 350 country entries. That is an indication of the interest, quality and appreciation of art-as it should be -by people in country areas.

I believe there should be representatives from the central, the western, and the eastern areas of Victoria. At this stage, I do not propose to move any amendment to the Bill, but the Government should meet the wishes of the country people in this regard. Whether there are to be four or five members on this council nominated by the Minister, I believe more than one should represent country

Mr. Mitchell.

people. Apart from those small differences, the Country Party supports the Bill.




Clause 2 (Commencement.)

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The honorable member for Benambra asked whether there are to be four or five persons appointed to the council on the nomination of the Minister. I made it quite clear in my second-reading speech that the council would consist of a president and eight other members. The president is to be nominated by the Chief Secretary. There are in fact, five persons, including the president to be so nominated.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-I thank the Minister and I accept his explanation. I protest strongly at the fact that a list of proposed amendments has just been submitted to me, and there has been no time in which to give them adequate consideration.

Mr. FLOYD.-It is the Government's form.

Mr. MITCHELL.-That is so, and it is an example of the studied contempt with which the Government treats this House. Its attitude is, "Any old thing is good enough for the people of Victoria". The Government simply throws these amendnlents around at the last minute, giving honorable members no opportunity to examine them, to see if they are appropriate and will result in worth-while legislation. Once again this Government stands indicted for its slovenliness and unfitness to occupy the Treasury benches.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 and 4.

Clause 5 (Constitution of Council) ..

Firearms (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1041

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-It was my intention to move that the circulated amendments, which are quite simple, be agreed to. However, if honorable members believe that they have not been properly treated and have not been given an opportunity of making the investigations they require, being generous I shall be happy to agree to progress being reported in order that they can waste their own time and not the time of this Committee to make whatever political capital out of it they may wish.

Progress was reported.

FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL. The debate (adjourned from

September 7) on the motion of Mr. Rylah (Chief Secretary) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-If ever a piece of legislation has battled to get a place on the statute-book of Victoria, it is the amendment of the Firearms Act. It has a history dating back to 1963, in which year, in accordance with the recommendations of the law committee, a Police Offences Bill was introduced. A Bill similar to that now before the House was introduced in May, 1966, and the debate was adjourned during the second-reading stage. The Bill was still on the Notice Paper when the House rose at the end of the autumn sessional period, but because Parliament was then prorogued the Bill lapsed. It was again introduced in September, and it now proposes to incorporate the firearms provisions of the Police Offences Act into the Firearms Act.

The Bill was subjected to careful examination by the Statute Law Revision Committee. To say the least, that committee was somewhat confused with the provisions of the Bill and as to how they would fit into the Firearms Act without exposing the State to undue danger. From time to time, it has been stated that

Victoria is the most crime-ridden State in Australia. I do not say that it is the most trigger-happy State, but it is certainly armed to the teeth. The figures placed before the law committee are interesting. They showed that an estimated 150,000 shot-guns and 180,000 pearifles were in the possession of persons resident in this State. These are not subject to registration. There are another 10,000 or 12,000 of what are known as controlled firearms, such as high-powered pistols. This adds ·up to one firearm to every three males over the age of eighteen years in Victoria; so this is an important measure when it is considered in this light.

Other figures supplied to the committee were that deaths in Victoria from firearms in 1964 totalled 103, consisting of 58 suicides of which 53 were men and five were women, 31 accidePlts and three homicides. The Government Statist compiled these figures from the inquest findings and because of varying considerations they may not coincide exactly with police statistics. Of 35 suspected murders investigated by the Homicide Squad last year, fourteen involved firearms. No accurate records were available of the number of woundings, either accidental or criminal, or of crimes such as robberies committed with firearms. Of the eight main metropolitan hospitals, six of them admitted 31 gunshot patients in the past year, and it was stated that others would nave been treated as outpatients. The other two hospitals had no records.

More fatal shooting accidents occur to youths aged fifteen to nineteen years than to any other five-year age group. The second highest number of deaths occurred in the ten to fourteen age group. Police researchers have blamed carelessness and ignorance as the prime cause of hunting accidents. Among accidental shot-gun casualties, 39 per cent. were fatal, compared

1042 Firearms (A.mendment) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

with 14 per cent. of the rifle casualties. Another police survey of 154 accidental shootings, eighteen of which were fatal, showed that 78.7 per cent. were with pea-rifles, 16.3 per cent. with shot-guns and 5 per cent. with other weapons. Seventyeight of the victims shot themselves and 76 were shot by somebody else.

One of the main criticisms of the Firearms Act is aimed at the requirement that buyers of high-powered sporting rifles must first obtain a firearm certificate from the police, whereas ordinary .22 pearifles and shot-guns are exempt. So it is rather absurd that nine out of ten of the firearms sold are not subject to control at all.

Part III. of the Firearms Act 1958 relating to firearm certificates provides that any person who purchases, carries or has in his possession a weapon deemed to be a firearm for the purposes of the Act, with\Jut first having obtained a firearm certificate, shall be guilty of an offence. Firearm certificates must be obtained before a person can legally obtain a pistol, a rifle over the calibre of .22 or an air-rifle or airgun declared by regulation to be specifically dangerous. That is a very wide term. However, it is not necessary to obtain a firearm certificate for a smooth-bore shot-gun which is not less than 30 inches in over-all length and which has a barrel not less than 16 inches long, or a firearm of calibre not exceeding .229 of an inch that is capable of taking rimfire cartridges commonly known as .22 short, or long-rifle cartridges containing or producing the equivalent muzzle velocity of not more than three grains by weight of smokeless gunpowder and a bullet of not more than 56 grains of shot.

Before a registration certificate can be issued for any of the firearms within the meaning of the Act the police must be satisfied that the applicant has a good reason for purchasing and having in his possession the firearm in respect of which

Mr. Wilkes.

the application is made, that the applicant is not a person who by this Act or any other law is prohibited from purchasing, being in possession of or carrying such a firearm and that the applicant is not a person of intemperate habits or unsound mind or otherwise unfitted to be entrusted with such a firearm or firearms. It is at that stage that the polic.e strike a great deal of trouble. I do not mean trouble in determining who should be issued with a firearm certificate; I refer to the amount of work that has to be done before a certificate can be issued.

In 1965, 12,180 firearm certificates were issued, and this year 10,928 were issued up to 30th September. The revenue from these licences was $5,770. 50 in 1965, and $5,200.50 in 1966. If honorable members compare the revenue that the Government obtains from the issuing of duck shooting or game licences and the amount of work involved with the revenue received from the issue of firearm certificates and the work involved they will understand why members of the Police Force are reluctant to recommend that registration supervision be placed on the use of .22 rifles or shot-guns. The task would be enormous. Whilst it may be desirable to have registration, it would not be practicable under the existing set-up of the Police Force. In fact, it takes anything up to three hours work by a member of the Police Force before a firearm certificate can be issued, whilst a duck-shooter's licence which costs $2 c.an be issued in ten minutes. In addition, the return from a firearm certificate is only 50 cents. So, the position i~ ludicrous. Members of the Force who appeared before the Statute Law Revision Committee, therefore, did no~ advocate the registration of shot-guns or pea-rifles.

Following the presentation of the report by the Statute Law Revision Committee on shot-guns, the Government introduced a Firearms (Amendment) Bill which included a provision

Firearms (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1043

to permit persons under the age of eighteen years to retain the right to use a shot-gun, but specified that they must at all times be accompanied by a person over the age of 21 years. The committee subsequently considered this provision, which had been transposed from the Police Offences Act to the Firearms Act and stated in its report that when it previously considered shot-guns it was not envisaged that any restrictions should be placed on their use by persons under the age of 18 years and, to the contrary, the committee stated in its report that in the absence of evidence indicating that young persons are incapable of the safe handling of a shot-gun it recommended that persons under the age of eighteen years be allowed to retain the right to use one.

The committee had in mind the sons of farmers who were quite experienced and who had been taught how to use shot-guns and perhaps had been taken trap-shooting or to other sporting events where shotguns are used. The committee also recommended that if it was the opinion of Parliament that shot-guns should be registered it would not necessarily mean that they would not fall into the hands of criminals. Because of the low percentage of convictions which have occurred over the past few years for the carrying and discharging of firearms, the committee did not deem it necessary to make that recommendation.

The Chief Secretary supplied me with some figures relating to prosecutions and convictions in regard to firearms. In 1961, 552 persons were charged with carrying a firearm in person or in a motor vehicle; for 1962 the relevant number was 546; for 1963 it was 562; and for 1964 it was 550. The figures for those charged with discharging firearms on Sundays were:-1961, 61; 1962, 64; 1963, 45; and 1964, 51.

There was no great problem in transferring the provisions from the Police Offences Act into the Fire-

arms Act, but I understand that the Chief Secretary has several amendments which he proposes to move to this Bill, which, at this stage, does not reflect the report of the Statute Law Revision Committee. For example, I should imagine it will be necessary to amend proposed new sub-section (3A) of section 4, as contained in clause 4 of the Bill, if the report of the committee is accepted in its entirety, as the Chief Secretary suggested it would be in his secondreading speech. Whilst the Statute Law Revision Committee agreed that air-guns, pea-rifles and shot-guns should be excluded from the provisions of the Firearms Act, it considered that in regard to the trespass to farms provisions which would be included in the Firearms Act it would be necessary to maintain the definitions of air-gun, air-rifle and saloon gun, as the shot-gun is frequently called. As the Bill before the House is drafted, the definition of firearm from the trespass to farms legislation is not included. However, I understand the Chief Secretary has accepted a submission from the Statute Law Revision Committee and he may attempt to implement this recommendation.

The Statute Law Revision Committee submitted this proposal to the Chief Secretary in a letter which states-

Following the introduction of the above Bill-

that is tl1e Firearms (Amendment) Bill-into the Legislative Assembly on 7th September, some members of the Sta.tute Law Revision Committee entertamed doubts as to whether certain recommendations of the former committee had in fact been implement.ed. In ~iew. of the . c«;msiderable confuslOn and dlverslty of opmlon existing among members, Mr. G. O'Brien, Assistant Parliamentary Draftsman, was unofficially asked to give his views.

Honorable members will recall that Mr. O'Brien was responsible for transferring these provisions from the Police Offences Act to the Firearms Act ano was overseas when the first

1044 Firearms (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY.] BiU.

Bill on this subject was introduced into Parliament. Naturally, he had to familiarize himself with what had been done in his absence. As a result of the discussions with Mr. O'Brien, certain proposals for amendmen ts were suggested by the committee which invited the Chief Secretary to consider them. They were that although paragraph (7) of the explanatory paper to the Bill refers to the removal of control over air-guns and air-rifles generally, in accordance with a committee recommendation, from a perusal of the present Bill it would appear that this has not been done and there was general agreement by members of the committee that this could be remedied by certain amendments which the committee suggested. The committee also suggested that consideration be given to the special position of collectors of antique firearms and thought that bona fide collectors would be unduly penalized if they were not permitted to possess fully jacketed rifle ammunition as part of their collections. We thought that the Government might consider adding a further paragraph to the exceptions in clause 13 of the Bill, and suggested that the following might be appropriate:-

(e) a bona fide collector of firearms in respect of his possession of fully jacketed ammunition for firearms in his collection if the collector has given notice of such possession to the Chief Commissioner of Police and the Chief Commissioner of Police has by writing signified that this section should not apply thereto.

A good deal of evidence along those lines was submitted. In fact, a member of the Returned Services League in a letter to the Chief Secretary, dated 9th September 1966, said-

Confirming my telephone call to Mr. Joyce to-day, I wish to draw your attentiop to the Firearms (Amendment) Bill now before Parliament, which contains a prov,ision which could affect many returned servIcemen.

The Bill (Section 13) provides that a person shall not use discharge carry or have in his possession any fully jacketed rifle ammunition. Then follow provisions

Mr. Wilkes.

exempting the armed services, police, gaol warders, rifle club members and licensed gun dealers.

Fully jacketed ammunition is, of course, the type required by International law for use in war. However, it has also been made for many rifles never used for military or police purposes (e.g. various British big-game rifles).

While we probably all agree that the use of this type of ammunition, as far as Australians are concerned, is best restricted to the military target range or the battlefield, I consider that the making of the mere possession of such rifle ammunition a punishable offence under the Firearms Act is likely to result in needless embarrassment and unhappiness for many of the Leagues' members and their dependants.

He said that many returned servicemen had brought home, and still had in their possession, British, German, American, Italian or Japanese service rifle cartridges. Incidentally, the police have invited people to surrender these to the Forensic Science section of the Police Force. An amnesty which expired at the end of last month was declared.

Mr. WHEELER.-It was extended.

Mr. WILKES.-If it has been extended, then the concern of the gentleman who wrote the letter and the others who appeared before the committee is that, perhaps, some restriction on the possession of fully jacketed rifle ammunition could be enforced without seriously affecting those who did not intend to break the law or did not intend to use the ammunition. Steel jacketed ammunition is very important ,to some antique collectors.

I cannot say that I have not seen fully jacketed ammunition displayed in sporting stores in the metropolitan area, but I do not suggest that it has been for sale. I agree that some restriction must be placed on that, but I think it is quite reasonable that antique collectors and servicemen who have this ammunition, for purposes best known to themselvescertainly not for any ulterior motive -could be exempted by permission of the Chief Commissioner of Police.

Firearms (A.mendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1045

Those who did not deem it important enough to apply to him could hand in the ammunition in accordance with the provisions of the Act.

To move the provisions from the Police Offences Act to the Firearms Act is a step towards tidying up the cumbersome Police Offences Act. Many provisions have been taken from that Act and placed into other Acts to which they are more germane, and obviously those concerning firearms are in the category.

There was a great deal of controversy in regard to· shot-guns and rifles, as to what extent they should have been controlled in the past, and to what extent they should be controlled in the future, but I am convinced that it would be impossible for the police to register all shotguns, rifles or air-guns, as it takes an average of three hours to issue a firearm certificate. In reply to an honorable member who asked why it takes that long, I point out that a lengthy investigation must be made. When he gave evidence to the Statute Law Revision Committee, Inspector Collins was asked by Mr. Whiting-

When the rifle is taken in to be licensed, are there any ballistic tests carried out on the rifle?

Inspector Collins answered-. Well, at Russell-street, if they buy it from a gun dealer, we do not see the firearm. First of all, the applicant comes to the police station and lodges an application to purchase a certain type of firearm. A check is made as to whether he is a fit and proper person to be issued with one, whether he has a good reason for having it, and if they are correct, he is then issued with a selection notice. That is a duplicate form and he takes that to the gun dealer and the gun dealer fills in the original of it, to say that this man has selected a certain firearm, type, number, all the rest of it. Then, the applicant brings that back to the Firearms Officer and he is then issued with the certificate. He takes that to the gun dealer, picks up the firearm, and the gun dealer within 48 hours, returns the duplicate of the selection notice to us. He has got it, and it is recorded, that firearm, the number of it and the type is recorded, and the name and address of the person who has got it, so that you can, if you get the firearm, you can check the number of it and you know who should

have it, or if a man is queried as to it, you can check his name and see what firearm he should have.

It is a complex process, as it must be if the police are to be certain about the people to whom firearm certificates are issued. Perhaps the procedure is cumbersome in respect to issuing certificates for a highpowered rifle for sporting purposes or issuing a certificate to a member of a sporting gun-club, but its necessity is more easily realized if one thinks in terms of pistols. If it were necessary to apply the same procedure to shot-guns, pearifles, and air-guns, the job would be impossible.

An air-gun was excluded from the provisions of the Police Offences Act, if it was considered to be not lethal. I assume that the amendment which the Minister will move to this legislation will make it very clear

. that air-guns are to be excluded from its provisions, as are .22 rifles and shot-guns.

By and large, the inquiry into the legislation was very complicated, as is the legislation itself. This is not something which can be dealt with lightly. The Statute Law Revision Committee realized the ramifications of what it suggested in its report and weighed them against the problems associated with carrying firearms. Its report recommended that the trespass to farms provisions of the Firearms Act should give the same protection as before to people on the land, that is, that unauthorized persons would not be permitted to carry firearms of any description on their land. The committee considered that, in that case firearms should include rifles, shot-guns, and air-guns.

Under the circumstances, what began simply as an intention to move sections of the Police Offences Act to the Firearms Act was the subject of more consideration by the Statute Law Revision Committee than most other legislation which it had considered. The provisions 'in this Bill

1046 Firearms (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

will ensure a degree of safety to the pu~lic. The police appear to be 8atlsfied. Gun-clubs and sporting clubs appear to be satisfied, although t~ey did raise some objections to the BIll. Some objections are still raised in respect of steel jacketted ammunition, but I expect that these will be overcome-I hope I am not presumptuous-by amendments to the Bill sponsored by the Government. The Opposition does not oppose the legislation. It trusts it will function as the Statute Law Revision Committee hoped it would.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-!'laturally, the Country Party is very Interested in this type of legislation. However, for the life of me, I cannot understand why it should be so difficult to produce a Bill to do what the Government thinks should be done. Nor can I understand why it was necessary that there should have been a Bill with an explanatory paper printed on the 15th September, 1965, another printed on the 10th May, 1966, and still another-the Bill with which we are now dealing-on the 24th August, 1966. In addition to those Bills, there have been, as the honorable member for Northcote mentioned, three reports on the subject from the Statute Law Revision Committee, one in 1963, the second on the 9th September, 1964, and a third on the 28th September, 1965.

With all that research and the printing and reprinting of Bills, the Bill now before the House still does not do what the explanatory paper says it will. It is amazing that this could have happened. Admittedly, the Parliamentary Draftsman who drew up the original Bill was overseas when the last Bill was presented, so there was room for some error. But, surely, if it was left to one Parliamentary draftsman to put the Government's policy into words which are suitable and workable, then something must be wrong, either with the Government members who are interested in this subject or with the Chief Secretary's

Department which controls this type of legislation relating to the Police Force.

The explanatory paper attached to the Bill says that the seventh object of the Bill is-

To remove control over the use of airguns and air-rifles generally. The Statute Law Revision Committee in paragraph 9 of its 1966 report referred to the limited ~ower and range of air-guns, and questioned the need for their registration.

I have done some homework on this Bill, but I have not been able to discover under what provision this control is actually removed. The Bill mentions smooth-bore shot-guns and fir~arms other than pistols, not exceedIng .229 of an inch. I discussed this matter with the Parliamentary Draftsman, who said that the provision must be included somewhere in the Bill. He stated that he would look into it and communicate with me later. He did so, and he had to admit that he could not find the provision. I have tremendous respect for the work done in this House by the Chief Secretary -it has been said that if it were not for him this Government would fall to the ground, and I believe that to be true-but in this case there has been an omission.

The main purpose of the Bill is to transfer the firearms provisions of the Police Offences Act to a separate enactment. This would appear to be a good move, and one that would simplify the Victorian legislation. However, as I have stated, in one small matter this has not been so. Generally, the legislation is being tidied up, and it is proper that this should be done. A study of this Bill reveals that many of its clauses make small amendments to the existing provisions. These have been commented on by the honorable member for Northcote who, like myself, is a little bewildered in regard to some of the provisions. The honorable member has a very good knowledge of what was rec.ommended by the Statute Law Revision Committee and the

Firearms (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] . Bill. 1047

various provisions that, in effect, are designed to improve conditions regarding the use of firearms of various types throughout Victoria.

In its report of the 27th September, 1965-that was the report on the first Bill which was submitted, and which did not exactly follow the recommendations that the committee made in 1964-it stated, at paragraph 9-The Committee therefore reaffirms its previous findings and recommends that clause 9 of the Bill be amended to allow persons under the age of 18 years to retain their present right to use a shot-gun without the necessity for a person over the age of 21 years to be present.

That is a worth-while recommendation, because it would be ludicrous to require a person aged 20 years who was using a shot-gun to be accompanied by a person of 21 years of age to make sure that he did not do the wrong thing. Members of the Country Party consider that the best way to train people in the use of firearms is to start them off at a very early age, and teach them respect for firearms and the dangers that can result from their careless use. We believe that it is a good thing for young lads to be allowed to use shot-guns virtually from the time they are able to carry them. Many young boys throughout the State own air-guns, which they use to shoot at sparrows and tin cans. We believe this training in the use of firearms stands them in good stead in later life.

It has been rumoured that the Government proposes certain amendments to this Bill. It is unfortunate that a measure of this nature should be subject to amendment when members of the Opposition and of the Country Party have not yet seen the amendments. We can only hope the amendments will be furnished in time to enable honorable members to study them in conjunction with the provisions of the Bill.

It is interesting to. note that the Statute Law Revision Committee twice recommended that provision

should be made for general hunting licenc.es to take the place of the current duck-shooting licences. This would possibly be brought about by an amendment to the Game Act. However, as yet, no intimation has been . given by the Government whether it has considered this recommendation. I consider that the provision of a general hunting licence would be admirable. Possibly if the recommendation were implemented, an identification card would be issued to the holder of each hunting licence. That would enable the police or a landowner on whose property shooters were trespassing to ascertain the offenders' names and addresses.

In its 1964 report, the Statute Law Revision Committee pointed out that many of the witnesses who appeared before the committee to give evidence were experienced in the use of firearms, and, in paragraph 9, stated-

All witnesses agreed that the safe handling of firearms can best be taught when a person is young and is more easily subjected to stricter discipline, and that it it easier to instruct a young person in safe handling of firearms than to train an adult who has had not previous experience.

The provisions of this Bill will allow a free use of air-guns and air-rifles to bring this situation about. One can. imagine the dangers to the community if lads of eighteen years of age, with no previous experience of firearms, are able to use pea-rifles a.nd shot-guns.

The honorable member for Northcote referred to the fact that under the "Trespass to farms" provisions it will be an offence to shoot airrifles, pea-rifles and shot-guns over, on, Or across a property without the consent of the owner. If free use of firearms were permitted, considerable and costly damage could be done to valuable grazing stock by irresponsible people. Persons will have to continue to get the consent o'f the owner of the property and will therefore treat property with the respect that it deserves.

1048 Firearms (Amendment) lASSEMBLY.] BiU.

Clause 7 adds. another ground to the power of the Chief Commissioner to revoke a firearm certificate; it refers to the making of false or misleading statements. This matter required clarification, and Country Party members are pleased that this amendment is included in the Bill. The honorable member for Northcote fully covered the question of firearm certificates. Although the provision is rather cumbersome, the need strictly to police the use of high-powered firearms, particularly rifles and pistols, is very necessary. It could be argued that a criminal who wanted a pistol or any other type of firearm would not seek a firearm certificate; that he would obtain the weapon by underhand methods, and that certificates would be issued only to law-abiding citizens.

The provisions relating to the carrying of firearms on Sundays also needed clarification, and this has been provided for in new section 29c, in clause 8 of the Bill, subsection (3) of which provides-

It shall be a defence to a prosecution under sub-section (1) if a defendant satisfies the court that he has not used and that he did not intend to use the firearm on the Sunday in respect of which he is being prosecuted.

He is enabled to carry the firearm from an authorized rifle club shoot or from some other function, which, because of the distance involved, might necessitate his carrying the firearm to his home on a Sunday. In general, the Country Party agrees with the tidying up of this legislation, and will look forward with interest to the amendments that are to be proposed.

Concerning the question of firearms generally, a letter to the editor of the Australian of the 6th October, 1966, signed by Mr. M. A. Harvey, Gladstone-street, Bexley, New South Wales, and headed "Firearms Controls only Encourage Criminals" is of considerable interest. In my opinion, certain statements in this letter are very relevant to the present

Mr. Whiting.

situation. The writer suggests that the present wave of bank hold-ups in New South Wales is purely the result of the banks in that State following a policy of withdrawing pistols from their branches and letting slide the high standard of marksmanship that once prevailed among bank employees. This is becoming fairly evident in Victoria, too. Country Party members believe that the provisions which will enable persons under the age of eighteen years to use air-guns and air-rifles will be of benefit to the State and to its residents.

Mr. SUGGETT (Moorabbin).-The purpose of this measure is to transfer the provisions of one Act to another Act so it is appropriate that honorable members should discuss the subject of firearms generally. The greatest possible care must be exercised in the control of firearms, and the safety of the public must be assured. At the same time, care must be taken to ensure that a cocoon of regulations and restrictions is not woven around a simple Act that is designed to ensure the protection of the public, as this could cause embarrassment and inconvenience to law-abiding citizens in the course of their normal activities or in the pursuit of a particular sport or hobby. It is clear that if a criminal or potential criminal wishes to obtain a firearm, he will get hold of one, irrespective of how tightly we draw our laws or regulations. If he wants to do so he will get a gun by hook or by crook. Under the Bill, certain alleviations are made to de-restrict air-guns and air-rifles, and certain provisions are made for clubs to conduct shooting on Sundays.

. There is another section of the community interested in firearms, the members of which have not been given consideration in this Bill. I refer to collectors who are interested, for historical or aesthetic reasons, in the collection of firearms. An antique firearm could not by any stretch of the imagination be considered a danger to the public in general. In

Firearms (Amendment) [18 OcTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1049

considering this aspect, let us examine the following provision, which occurs in the Act of 1958:-

Nothing in this Act relating to fireanns shall apply to an antique firearm which is sold bought carried or possessed as a curiosity or ornament if the owner has given notice thereof in the prescribed form to the Chief Commissioner of Police and the said Chief Commissioner has by writing signified that this Act shall not apply thereto.

An antique firearm is defined as follows:-

In the last preceding sub-section it is provided that an II antique fireann" means a firearm which is not only of an obsolete pattern but is also incapable of discharging any kind of ammunition ordinarily obtainable.

If, as the honorable member for Northcote has pointed out, 90 per cent. of our firearms are not restricted in any way, why should a firearm which is clearly not capable of discharging any kind of ammunition normally obtainable be hedged around with restrictions? This causes additional work for the police, and does not serve any useful purpose. In Victoria, there is an organization known as the Antique and Historical Arms Collectors Guild of Victoria. I understand that this organization has about 150 members, and it is estimated that there are more than 500 people in the State who are interested in collecting historical firearms. In the main, they are responsible citizens who in many instances are dealing with firearms which are worth many hundreds of dollars.

VVhat procedure do they have to follow in order to register one of these firearms? They have to take it along to a police station, usually in working hours, causing a good deal of inconvenience, and then rely on the discretion of the superintendent of police, who is not always adequately equipped to decide whether the firearm should be registered or not. I suggest it would be reasonable to issue this type of person with a collector's licence.

An antique firearm could be clearly defined, and a minimum age of at least 21 years should be fixed for a

licence holder. Further, a standard register should be maintained, and collectors should be free to buy or exchange this type of firearm, which is held purely for aesthetic or historical reasons. No danger whatever to the public is involved. I ask the Chief Secretary to give serious consideration to my proposal. In the past considerable inconvenience, and at times embarrassment, has been caused when weapons have been taken along to a police station and in some instances the police did not know what they were dealing with.

Mr. VVILKES.-How would the collector's licence differ from a firearm certificate?

Mr. SUGGETT.-Each collector would be issued with a licence. Of course, if he did anything wrong, the licence would be immediately revoked. Adequate inquiries should be made into the history and the type of person who applies for such a licence. I urge the Government to give consideration to this type of person, who is collecting antique weapons. I do not believe any harm would result as far as the public are concerned. If some person wants to obtain a gun for a nefarious purpose, he will do so no matter how tight our laws are.

Mr. McLAREN (Caulfield).-I should like to comment briefly on this amending Bill. In considering the measure it is necessary to examine the various reports made by the Statute Law Revision Committee over the last three years, which were referred to by earlier speakers. Of course, it is necessary to protect the public against the misuse of firearms in our community. The first of my two main points relates to the section of the Statute Law Revision Committee's report of 1964 which deals with the desirability of restricting the use of shot-guns, and in particular the paragraph which mentions 150,000 shot-guns and 180,000 pea-rifles. As these are lethal weapons, it appears that in due course some consideration must be

1050 Firearms (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

given to their registration in some form or other. I have been wondering whether it would be possible to encourage the persons concerned to join shooting clubs, so that some form of control could be exercised over them. I realize the difficulty· of registering 330,000 weapons, but point out that they are all lethal weapons which could cause injury or death in the community.

The second point to which I should like to refer is that covered by the previous speaker, relating to collectors of antique weapons. I am a collector of "militaria" in the form of books and papers relating to Australia's participation in the various wars on sea, on land and in the air. I realize the part that the collector plays in the community. I support the honorable member for Moorabbin in his suggestion that some fOfm of recognition of collectors could be given under section 4 of the principal Act. If it is not possible to introduce a collector's licence, then perhaps some of these people could be regarded as gun dealers and issued with a gun dealer's licence.

I have here a recent issue of Caps and Flints, the official magazine of the Antique and Historical Arms Collectors Guild of Victoria, which indicates that the president of the Guild is a manufacturer of target revolvers in Australia. Therefore, it is probably necessary for him to hold a gun dealer's licence. In fact, a number of collectors do hold such a licence. I suggest it would be possible for some over-all statement to be made of the types of weapons which antique collectors could hold, covering long arms, pistols and revolvers in various classes, such as the matchlock, pin-fire, percussion and rimfire, with the exception of the modern .22 magnum and the pea-rifle.

In conclusion, I support the honorable member for Moorabbin in suggesting to the Chief Secretary that consideration should be given to the P9sition of the collectors of antiqll:e weapons in the community.

Mr. McLaren.

Mr. SCANLAN (Oakleigh).-The Bill before the House is related to a series of reports made over a number of years by the Statute Law Revision Committee. In the main, this committee has done a fine job in making the recommendations which the Government has brought before the House and seeks to implement by legislation. As a member of this Parliament possessing the freedom of Parliament, and believing that at certain times committees as much as individuals can make observations which are perhaps not wholly valid, I question one observation made by the Statute Law Revision Committee in clause 7 of its 1965-66 report on the Firearms Act 1958 and proposed amendments thereto, which was ordered to be printed on the 27th ApriJ, 1966. I am sure that honorable members who are also members of the Statute Law Revision Committee will be able to refer quickly to thIs report, which states-

The main argument advanced in favour of generally restricting the use of firearms is that it would prevent criminals or other undesirable persons from obtaining weapons for illegal purposes.

It appears to me that the committee has examined only a small section of the reasons which must be advanced concerning the problem of generally restricting the use of firearms. I do not believe the main argument to be advanced is that it would prevent criminals or other undesirable persons from obtaining weapons for illegal purposes. The main reason we attempt to restrict the possession of firearms is to protect the community.

It would be conceded generally by this Parliament as a whole that there are three ways in which the Government can legislate. It can legislate, first, to restrict the availability of weapons by way of registration; secondly, it can by. deregistration increase the availability of weapons -in. other words, give complete freedom on the ~sage of weapons by persons within the community; or, thirdly, it can seek other

Firearms (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1051

forms of registration. This brings up the argument that has been advanced in various quarters for the registration of the shooter. I believe the Statute Law Revision Committee has moved towards the derestriction of firearms, with certain provisos.

From time to time, the area that I represent comes in for a certain amount of criticism from the press for the number of crimes, frequently involving the use of firearms, which come before the court. I am fully conversant with the usage of firearms in the country areas. I believe that for the metropolitan member and the city dweller the problem of the shooter is not wholly compatible with the problem that confronts the farmer in using a firearm to protect his property and livestock. If people in the community can purchase firearms with greater freedom as a result of the derestriction of the licensing system, firearms will become available to juveniles and perhaps criminals in the metropolitan area. This could lead to an increase in the type of crime in which a firearm is used as an accessory to the act.

Mr. WILKEs.-Rifles and shot-guns are excluded now, and it is proposed to exclude air-guns.

Mr. SCANLAN.-That is so. As I understand it, the position in a nutshell is that the restrictions on firearms differ in the various States of Australia. Queensland might be regarded as being most liberal in the way in which it restricts the use of firearms; New South Wales is somewhat more liberal than Victoria. I agree that this matter may be the subject of debate, but the findings of the Statute Law Revision Committee appear to support the contention, that in view of the differences between the States, anomalies can occur so that a person who desires to obtain a weapon for an illegal use can easily do so by moving interstate or by purchasing a weapon across the border. This may be true, but the position that confronts the urban dweller is the fear-it is a dominant

fear in many parts of the world~ that guns could more easily become an accessory to crime. This is a dominant fear in the United States of America, and more and more the Police Departments of the various municipalities and counties of that country-as well as in Britain in recent years-are complaining at the ease with which firearms can be obtained by criminals. As I understand the position, the Constitution of the United States of America guarantees to a certain extent the right and the accessibility of the citizen to firearms for his protection, subject to certain qualifications. I understand that the Congress of the United States of America has set up a committee, which is currently examining this problem. If this is a problem in the United States of America and if the Government of the United Kingdom has indicated its alarm at the growing tendency to use firearms, I believe this situation will confront us in the future.

Mr. WILKEs.-That is largely in respect of pistols-not shot-guns and rifles.

Mr. SCANLAN.-That may be so, but in the future this Parliament will have to examine carefully the idea that is being widely advanced in regard to the registration of the shooter. It is said that such registration will give greater protection to the citizen, in which I am more interested on this occasion. The report of the Statute Law Revision Committee stated that the police were of the opinion that it was administratively a difficult concept to undertake.

Mr. WILKEs.-Almost impossible.

Mr. SCANLAN.-But that is on the basis of a fee of 50 cents to permit a person to use a weapon that can kill or permanently maim an individual. The motor car can kill or maim just as much as a rifle, but the right to use a rifle or a firearm which can cause bodily harm is a privilege. Therefore, there is no reason why such a small licence fee

1052 FiRearms (Amendment) [ASSEMBLY. ] BiU.

should be imposed. If there is any increasing tendency to use firearms in criminal acts, the Government should, in view of the fact that the possession of a firearm is a privilege, impose a tax to caver any administrative costs that may be necessary to provide protection for the community. I believe that in the future there will be a move towards the registration of the shooter so that a greater degree of control over firearms may be exercised than is proposed in this measure.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Scoresby).-It is not often that I disagree with my colleague, the honorable member for Oakleigh, but he referred to the licensing of the shooter. I am sympathetic to his thoughts regarding the safety of the people, but I could never be convinced that the issuing of a shooter's licence would contribute in any degree to that. Fishing and duck-shooting licences are issued as a matter of right; provided that a person pays the prescribed fee, he obtains a licence to fish or shoot. I fail to see how the issue of that type of licence can add to the safety 'of the people from the use of firearms. The honorable member for Oakleigh is confused in relation to firearm certificates. These certificates must be obtained for certain types of weapons, and exhaustive inquiries are made into the character of the a.pplicant and the reason for his application. If a system of issuing firearm certificates were introduced, in view of the fact that the necessary inquiries take a minimum of three hours per application, Victoria would need not an additional 500 policemen but double the present strength of the Force. Anyone who defends the system of issuing shooters' licences is defending a system designed to raise revenue rather than to protect the community. I believe such a system would be better advocated by a Treasury official than by someone interested in the Chief Secretary's activities.

I wish to congratulate the honora ble member for Moorabbin and the honorable member for Caulfield, who supported the Antique and Historical Arms Collectors Guild of Victoria. The honorable member for Caulfield mentioned the president of the guild -a Mr. Henry Scott of Melody Farm, Old Emerald-road, Belgrave. Mr. Scott is a licensed gun dealer, so he is not confronted with many of the problems that concern the other members of this guild. The honorable member for Moorabbin made a good point when he said that there is a difference in administration from police district to police district which causes a great deal of confusion and that, almost at the whims and vagaries of certain police officers, a great deal of frustration has been met by people who are endeavouring to exercise their rights under section 4 of the principal Act. I believe, as cio other honorable members, that it is time some thought was given by the Government to providing a clearcut definition of "antique firearm" and, if necessary, issuing some form of collector's licence which would enable an antique collector to be vetted before proceeding to establish his collection.

I wish to direct attention to some examples of the value of some historical firearms. For instance, a .44 colt Thuer Conversion 1860 Army revolver, cased with accessories, was sold by public auction in London some two years ago for £950 sterling. A.44 Colt Second Model Dragoon revolver, cased, in excellent working order in mint condition, was sold for £840 sterling. Another item of interest was the sale of a .36 Colt Model 1851 Navy Thuer Conversion revolver, with 90 per cent. original finish, and in very good working order, which was sold for £625 sterling.

When collectors make application for a licence, they have to do so for each historical or antique gun that

Firoor'ffUJ (Amendment) [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1053

they wish to collect, and some police officers treat the applications as though in fact no one should have more than two guns in his possession. If the applicant is frustrated at any great length, he has the right under the Act to appeal to the Court of Petty Sessions for a decision. This means that the collector is involved in a considerable amount of legal costs and waste of time in attending the court to obtain what is his right. I suggest that the House could well consider the guild's proposal that an antique firearm should be desc.ribed as follows:-

An antique firearm shall be of a matchlock, flintlock or percussion-type introduced up to 1863, and others of an obsolete pattern in~apable. of disch~rgi~g any kind of metalliC cartridges ordmarlly obtainable.

The guild goes on to say-Any antique firearm on being altered by

the addition, deletion or alteration of any part or parts or boring through of barrel or cylinder to be so adapted to discharge modern fixed ammunition of a centre fire or .22 rimfire type shall be disqualified from the above definition.

Under the Commonwealth Customs General Orders, page 646, the definition of " antique" is as follows:-

The term .. antique" is to be taken to cover goods produced at least 100 years prior to the date of importation which come under the heading of:

ARMS AND ARMOUR.

If honorable members were fully conversant with the difficulties experienced by these collectors, who do not want to act in breach of the law, but who take a great interest in preserving within the State firearms which are of historical value-people who are quite prepared to abide by regulations providing for security and safety conditions under which collections may be and should be stored-greater consideration would be given to this matter. I urge the Chief Secretary to give consideration to this request at an early date. The Guild has for several years requested that such action be taken.




Clause 2 (Amendment of Act No. 6251 s. 1).

The Hon. G. O. REID (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-The Government desires to consider the numerous suggestions that have been made from both sides of the House in regard to this Bill, and accordingly I suggest that progress be reported.


EXTRACTIVE INDUSTRIES BILL. Mr. DARCY (Minister of Mines).

I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

Honorable members will recall that an Extractive Industries Bill was introduced in the closing stages of the last Parliament but was not proceeded with, the intention being that ample time should be given to all interested persons and bodies to examine the Bill. In the past few months, many representations have been received by letter and by deputation from Departments and instrumentalities, trade organizations, associations, and companies, concerning various provisions of the Bill. As a result, some changes have been nlade. The most important of these provides tha t no licence shall be granted of private deasehold land without the consent of the owner and of the Minister of Lands. In the original Bill the owner's consent was not required.

It is considered that the holders of private leasehold land under selection purchase lease, improvement purchase lease, soldier settlement purchase lease or perpetual lease, should enjoy the same protection as freeholders. Accordingly, this type of land will not be licensed without the "owner's" consent. If, however, the

1054 Extractive Industries (ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

" owner" does consent and the land is licensed and used for extractive industry, the licensee will be required to pay a reclamation charge in case the "owner" fails to complete the purchase, and the land reverts to the Crown. Except for this change with respect to private leasehold land and some minor changes in procedure, the Bill now presented is substantially the same as that introduced into Parliament in May this year.

The Bill is very important indeed, and it will be useful to refer again to the events which gave rise to it.

In 1957-1958, and again in 1963-1964, the State Development Committee conducted inquiries into matters associated with extractive industries. At its second inquiry, the committee took sworn evidence from some 1 00 witnesses, examined the legislation of other States and overseas countries, and inspected many extractive industries in metropolitan and country districts. Following the second inquiry, the committee submitted a report embodying a number of recommendations for the control of extractive industries. This Bill provides for the implementation of most of those recommendations.

The principal objectives of the Bill are:-

1. To remove extractive industries from the operation of the Mines Act and to provide that all aspects of extractive industries are dealt with under a separate Act, the Extractive Industries Act.

2. To transfer the ownership of extractive substances to the landowner.

3. To provide for the leasing or licensing of extractive industries throughout Victoria.

4. To give the widest pUblicity to applications for extractive industrial leases and licences,

Mr. Darcy.

and to give interested parties adequate opportunity to object and to be heard.

5. To allow for the continuance of all existing extractive industries.

6. To enable the making of regulations for the control and operation of quarries, and the safety and health of persons employed in quarries, and the safety of the public.

7. To provide for the reclamation of worked-out quarries where practicable.

8. To enable the search for extractive substances on Crown and private land.

9. To establish an Extractive Industries Advisory Committee.

A most important feature of the Bill is the transfer of ownership of extractive substances to the landowners in private land in which, at present, the Crown owns these substances. This. result is produced by excluding these substances from the definition of "mineral" in the Mines Act (which definition established Crown ownership) and including them in the definition of "stone" in the Extractive Industries Bill. " Stone", which by definition in the Bill includes the raw material of extractive industry such as basalt, rock, slate, gravel, clay and sand, will belong to the landowner in all private land regardless of when it was alienated.

In this connexion, however, it is to be noted that where a lease or licence has been granted under the Mines Act in respect of private land in which the extractive substances belonged to the Crown at the date of grant of the lease or licence, that lease or licence will continue in full force and effect as if the extractive industries legislation had not been passed. The ownership of the

Extractive Industries [18 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1055

" stone " in the land held under those leases or licences will remain with the Crown during their currency or any renewal that may be granted.

The explanation for this is that when the Crown granted these mining titles they were accepted in good faith by the lessee or licensee, who can reasonably expect that his rights under the titles granted will be preserved. Thes·e leases and licences will continue to confer the rights already granted under the Mines Act, but the control of the operations carried out under these titles will be subject to the comprehensive regulations to be made under this Bill. I am referring particularly to established industries which have considerable capital invested in this type of extractive industry.

Other extractive industrialists who have been operating on land not subject to the provisions of the Mines Act are entit1ed, likewise, to continue to enjoy their existing rights, and this is provided for in the Bill. Their operations and any new operations commenc-ed on private land will be authorized by licence, and all operations on Crown land will be authorized by lease. When an application for a lease or licence is lodged, it will be advertised in a newspaper circulating in the locality, and a notice of application will be posted on the land so that all interested persons and bodies will be aware of the proposal to establish anextractive industry and be given an opportunity to object if they desire to do so.

If the land applied for is within a planning scheme, it will be necessary for the applicant to obtain a permit from the responsible authority. The application will not be considered until the permit has been granted. If the land is within a catchment area, the application will not be granted if the Soil Conservation Authority objects. As would be expected in any legislation intended to control an industry which, of its nature, is creative of nuisance, the

Bill sets out in some detail the matters on which regulations are to be made to minimize nuisance and the risk of damage to public property, and to ensure the safety and health of persons employed in extractive industries and of persons living in close proximity.

The Bill also provides that municipal councils may require a landowner to reclaim a disused quarry site or, if the landowner fails to carry out the necessary work, the council may apply for a Supreme Court order to vest the land in the council whereupon the work will be carried out by the council. Crown land, too, may be reclaimed by the council, in which case the council may apply for reimbursement of the cost from an Extractive Industries Reclamation Fund to be established.

In an endeavour to facilitate the proper and reasonable exploitation of the "stone" resources of the State, the Bill enables permits to be granted for the search for "stone" on Crown land and on private land. I t provides for the establishment of an Extractive Industries Advisory Committee to conduct surveys and carry out investigations of stone deposits and to report on other matters dealing with extractive industries.

Special provision is made for full compensation to be paid to the owners of land for any damage done to land in the course of searching for " stone ". I shall now refer briefly to the clauses of the Bill. Clause 1 is the usual citation and commencement provision.

Clause . 2 is the interpretations clause. The definitions of "extractive industry", " quarry" and " stone" are particularly important because they specify the substances and the types of operations covered by the Bill. The operations of Government and semi-Government bodies and municipalities, not being o~erations for commercial purposes, WIll not be subject to leaSing or licensing but the excavations made

1056 Ext'factive Industries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

by these bodies are "quarries" and accordingly subject to the regulations.

By clauses 3 to 9, the Governor in Council will be enabled to grant leases for extractive industries on Crown land and the Minister to grant licences for extractive industries on private land. No extractive industries licence may be granted over any p~ivate land without the consent of the landowner. In the case of cc private leasehold land ", as defined in clause 2, the consent of the Minister of Lands is required as well. If the land applied for is within a planning scheme, a permit in terms of the Town and Country Planning Board is required from the responsible authority or, if in a water catchment area, the written consent of the Soil Conservation Authority is required.

Leases and licences may be assigned with the consent of the Minister. Leases and licences may be cancelled by the Minister for a breach of conditions. The procedure to be adopted in making applications for leases and licences is described in clauses 10 to 16. Applications will be made on the prescribed form and lodged with the Secretary for Mines, who will forward a copy of the application to the Town and Country Planning Board and to the Soil Conservation Authority. Following this, the application may proceed if the necessary permit or consent has been granted or if the land is not affected by a planning scheme or catchment area.

The Secretary for Mines will require the applicant to publish notice of the application in a newspaper circulating in the locality and to keep a large copy of the notice posted on the land for 28 days. In addition, where the application is in respect of land for which no permit is required, the Secretary for Mines will forward a copy of the application to the local municipal council, the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission, other interested public authorities or

Mr. Darcy.

bodies, adjoining landowners, and any other person it is considered necessary to notify. In these cases, the Minister will consider the application and objections, if any, as soon as possible after the time for lodging objections has expired, and, after endeavouring to reconcile the different interests of the applicant and the persons or authorities objecting, decide the application. The Secretary for Mines will then notify the applicant and objectors of the decision.

In cases where a permit is required, the Minister will consider and finally deal with the application as soon as possible after the permit is obtained. In dealing with all applications, the Minister will take into consideration the report of the Extractive Industries Advisory Committee. Clause 17 will entitle the holder of an extractive industrial lease or licence to a renewal as of right providing he has complied with the covenants and conditions of his lease or licence. Renewal will be subject to such additional covenants and conditions as the Minister considers necessary.

The appointment of inspectors of quarries is covered by clause 18, and clause 19 provides for the making of regulations by the Governor in Council for the operation of quarries and for ensuring the safety and health of workers in quarries and the safety of the public. These regulatory powers will enable the State Mining Engineer to control blasting, to minimize nuisance and the risk of injury to the public from blasting, to prevent injury to quarry workers and to the public and damage to public property by quarry operations, to minimize the distress caused to the public by dust and noise created by quarrying processes, to provide for supervision of quarrying by qualified persons, to require the proper maintenance of records for statistical purposes, to provide for progressive restoration of operating quarry excavations, and to institute court

Extractive Industries [18 OcTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1057

proceedings with appropriate penalties when a regulation is contravened.

The reclamation of worked-out quarry sites is provided for in clauses 20 to 25. Local municipal councils will be enabled to reclaim, or require owners to reclaim, abandoned excavations on any land other than excavations created by cement producers who have been exempted on the express recommendation of the State Development Committee. A council may request the owner of freehold land to perform the work or to transfer the ownership of the land to the council. If the landowner fails to perform the reclamation work requested or does not transfer the land, the council may have recourse to Supreme Court action for an order vesting the ownership of the land, if freehold land, in the municipal council, or if leasehold land, revoking the lease or licence and revesting ownership in the Crown. Where land has been conveyed to or vested in the council by a Supreme Court order, the council may carry out reclamation.

Clauses 26 to 35 provide for the granting by the Minister of permits to search for "stone". Any person desiring to search for "stone" on Crown land or on private land must obtain a permit from the Minister of Mines. The holder of a permit must fully compensate the landowner for damage including consequential damage and other loss caused by his operations. He is required to keep adequate records and furnish returns to the Secretary of the results of the search. The Mines Department is empowered to search for "stone " on any land. Here again, landowners must be fully compensated. Penalties for carrying on an extractive industry or search for "stone" without the necessary lease, licence or permit are set out in clauses 35 and 36.

Clauses 37 and 38 provide that, when the Extractive Industries Act comes into force, extractive industries which are then operating under a

lease under the Mines Act, or which are operating without a lease on private land not subject to the Mines Act, shall be allowed to continue.. I have already referred to these Important provisions. Clauses 39 and 40 ensure that certain provisions of various Acts will not be affected by the passing of this Bill. Any differences between the Minister of Mines and any other Minister with respect to matters related to extractive industry may be resolved by the Governor in Council. Clause 42 provides for this.

The creation of an Extractive Industries Advisory Committee is provided for in clause 43. The committee is to consist of the Director of Geological Survey and the State Mining Engineer as permanent members, with an additional special member or members to be appointed from time to time. If the land being considered is within a planning scheme, the special member will be a representative of the responsible authority. In the metropolitan area, he will be a representative of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works as the body responsible for the Master Plan and, if a planning scheme has been prepared by the local council, a representative of that council also. If the land is not in a planning scheme, the special member will be a representative of the local council.

The committee will be required to conduct surveys for the purpose of ascertaining if deposits of "stone" of economic value exist on such areas of land as the Minister directs and to report its findings to him. The committee may also be directed by the Minister to undertake other investigations with respect to "stone" deposits and extractive industry. Other functions of the committee will be to give advice on the suitability of land for extractive industry to the responsible authority and to the Minister and to make recommendations to the Minister with regard to regulations under the Act.

1058 Extractive Industries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Clause 44 enables the Governor in Council to make regulations regarding forms, fees, royalties, conditions, returns and other matters necessary for carrying the Act into effect. It was considered that the regulation of quarries was of such importance that it warranted separate detailed treatment and this has been provided for in clause 19. The amendment of other Acts is achieved by clauses 45 to 51. These clauses provide that, where large-scale extractive industries are carried on under authority from the Forests Commission, half the royalty will be paid to the Mines Department.

The Lands Department will no longer issue leases for extractive industries. The power of councils to make by-laws prohibiting, regulating and controlling extractive industries will be revoked. The term " mineral " in the Mines Act will be amended by the removal of extractive substances, and the power to proclaim any type of stone as a "mineral " will be removed. Extractive substances on private land at present held under mineral lease under the Mines Act will remain the property of the Crown so long as the lease continues in force.

No lease or licence for extractive substances will be granted in a national park without the consent of the National Parks Authority. No person shall carry out shallow surface stripping without the consent of the Soil Conservation Authority. Because of the very nature and operations of "extractive industries," which involve many conflicting interests, the preparation of this measure and the shaping of it have posed many problems. However, the Bill represents a well-considered attempt to 'resolve conflicting interests, to remedy existing disabilities, and, having full regard to public interest, to ensure the stability of one of the State's most important industries. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) , the debate was adjourned.

Mr. Darcy.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, November 1.

ADJOURNMENT. MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN

BOARD OF WORKS: CONSTRUCTION OF TULLAMARINE FREEWAy-CORIO BAY: CONTAMINATION OF FISH BY POLLUTION.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works).-I move--

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until to-morrow, at half-past Three o'clock.


Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works).-I move-

That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -I direct the attention of the Minister of Public Works to the construction of the Tullamarine Freeway. This is a matter of extreme urgency to which I have directed the attention of this House on a number of occasions and which has also been given prominence in to-day's Age. It is proposed that the freeway shall be constructed from Flemington in a northerly direction towards Keilor. According to earlier reports,. this freeway was to follow the course of the Moonee Ponds creek. In truth, it is to go through portions of the electorate of Brunswick West, Pascoe Vale and the bordering electorate of Essendon. This course will necessitate the demolition of 154 homes. Many objections have been received to tbis proposal.

An Order in Council is contained in the Government Gazette of the 12th October, 1966, providing for the construction of a new metropolitan main highway through the cities of Melbourne, Essendon, Brunswick and Broadmeadows. His Excellency the Governor has approved of the recommendation of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, as disclosed on the plans of the Board of Works, without modification. This completely ignores section 287 of the Local Government Act which

Adjournment. (19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Adjournment. 1059

enables municipalities to lodge objections within 90 days. In a letter to the Coburg City Council dated 29th August, 1966, the Minister for Local Government said-

I am not aware of any proposal to eliminate the 90-day period for objections to the proposed project under the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Act. Council will be entitled to lodge objections accordingly.

Before the objections were lodged, the approval of the Governor in Council has been given to this project. This is a complete mockery of justice. I direct this matter to the attention of the Minister so that natural justice may be obtained and so that the relevant section may be revoked until such time as the municipalities concerned are enabled to lodge objections, and have them dealt with in accordance with law.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong).-Last week, a fisherman at Geelong had 200 cases of fish from Corio. Bay rejected because of pollution by petrol or kerosene substances. I have been asked by the Professional Fishermen's Association in Geelong to bring to the notice of the Minister concerned a letter from the Commercial Fisheries Council dated 12th May, 1966, whereby it was understood that some improvement would be effected at Corio Bay following the construction of a new out-fall sewerage system or trade-waste main at Geelong. By its connexion to. the Shell refinery, this was expected to cure the pollution of Corio Bay.

I t was directed to my notice yesterday-I have not yet been able to confirm it-that the Shell refinery will not be connected to this new trade-waste main, and that its effect in attempting to solve the pollution problem of Corio Bay will be useless. An officer of the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch should be required to confer with the authorities of the Shell refinery with a view to the pollution being lessened and the main now under construction being connected to the refinery.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The legal and complicated submissions of the honorable member for Brunswick West will be directed to the attention of my colleague, the Minister for Local Government. I assure the honorable member for Geelong that his suggestions will be examined by the appropriate authority.

The House adjourned at 10.21 p.m.

14tgi,a!atiut (!tunnti!.

Wednesday, October 19, 1966.


ABORIGINES WELFARE BOARD. EMPLOYMENT OF ABORIGINES.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Housing-

(a) How many Aboriginal men and women are unemployed in Victoria?

(b) How many Aborigines are employed by the Aborigines Welfare Board, and in what capacities? .

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing).-The answers are--

(a) Current information is not readily available to the Aborigines Welfare Board. However, some indication is provided from a survey of the employment status of Aborigines in rural areas, carried out by the Board's staff in Marchi April, 1966, when 88 men were unemployed out of a total of 598. Because of the seasonal nature of the work followed by Aborigines, this figure fluctuates during the year.

No accurate figures are available relating to the number of women unemployed who are desirous of obtaining employment.

1060 'Railway [COUNCll...J Deparflment.

(b) One Aborigine is employed by the Aborigines Welfare Board as a farm worker at Lake Tyers Aboriginal Station.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. VENEREAL DISEASE: AUSTRALIA-WIDE

SURVEY.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) asked the Minister of Health-

Has the Department of Health been requested by the Australian Medical Association to participate in an Australiawide survey on the incidence of venereal d~ease; if so, to what extent was the Department asked to co-operate, and what was its reply?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health).-The answer is-

Following a request made in July, 1965, by the Federal council of the Australian Medical Association, the Victorian branch of the association formed a committee of Victorian branch council members to consider the question of venereal disease in Victoria.

One of the purposes of the committee was to consider what data was available on the incidence of venereal disease in this State. The committee sought the cooperation of the Department of Health and discussions were held between the members of the committee and the Chief Health Officer. At these discussions, the incidence of venereal disease, as indicated by cases referred to the Government clinic and by notifications from general practitioners, was studied and considered.

After evaluating the information obtained from both these sources, no further action was considered necessary.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. GOODS LOST AND DAMAGED: CLAIMS.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What were the annual claims against the Victorian Railways for each of the past five years for-(i) goods lost in transit; and (ii) goods damaged in transit?

(b) What amounts were paid in each of the past five years for-(i) goods lost; and (ii) goods damaged?


(a) The value of claims lodged is not recorded.

(b) The amounts paid in settlement of claims in the past five years were as folIows:-

Claims Claims for Goods for Goods

Lost. Damaged.

S S

1961-62 59,794 125,358

1962-63 54,360 139,232

1963-64 51,814 138,252

1964-65 75,504 175,182

1965-66 81,865 169,646

PENAL INSTITUTIONS. PIVISIONS AT PENTRIDGE GAOL:

ACCOMMODATION: CLASSIFICATIONS AND AGES OF OFFENDERS: OTHER RECEPTION INSTITUTIONS.

The Hon. J. M. TRlPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture--

(a) How many divisions operate at Pentridge Gaol for the reception of offenders facing charges or sentenced by courts for offences committed?

(b) What classification of offenders is allocated to each division, how many are accommodated in each, and what is the squarage of cell used in each division in which prisoners are secured?

(c) How many offenders in each division are under the age of 21 years, and what are their respective age groupings?

(d) What penal institutions other than Pent ridge are in use for the reception of prisoners, how many are secured in each, and how many are under the age of 21 years and in what age groupings?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-As the answers contain a detailed list of figures, I suggest that, by leave of the House, they be incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


(a) Two divisions hold unconvicted prisoners. These two plus another seven divisions hold convicted prisoners.

Penal [19 OcTOBER, 1966.] I nstitwWns. 1061

(b)

Division. Capacity. ClaBBlftca tlon. Size of Cell.

A 90 First offenders education .. .. . . 63 square feet

B 149 Reoidivists serving over three years .. .. 60 square feet

C 230 Recidivists serving under three years ., .. 36 square feet

D 302 Unconvioted or short sentenCe .. .. 47 square feet

E 136 Recidivists serving under three yea.re .. .. Dormitories

F 150 Short senten('.e or unoonvicted .. .. Dormitories

G 75 Hospital and psychiatrio .. .. .. 67 square feet

B 38 Security or punishment .. .. . . 63 square feet

J 65 Young offenders under 21 years .. .. 63 squa.re feet

(c)

Fourteen Fifteen Sixteen Seventeen Eighteen Nineteen Twenty Total. Yeal8. Years. Years. Years. Years. Years. Years.

A 2 3

B

C 2 2 5

D 21 16 21 10 69

E 7 8

F

G 1 4: 7 10 25

H 2

J 1 31 36 42 20 131

Of the 69 in .. D" Division, 57 are unconvicted. Of the 131 in .. J" Division, 66 slept in II C .. Division cells on the night of the 18th

October, 1966, because .. J" Division was full.

(d)

PrIson. Capacity.

Beeohworth .. 125 Bendigo 120 Castlemaine .. 112 Coriemungle 60 Dhurringile 50 Fairlea 100 Geelong 130 MoLeod 133 Morwell River 80 Sale 75 Won Wron .. 32

Under 21.

9 42

4

13 30 11

1 5

The ages of prisoners under 21 years in country prisons are not immediately available.

LANGI KAL KAL TRAINING CENTRE:

ACCOMMODA nON: STAFF: TRAINEES.


(a) When was the Langi Kal Kal Training Centre constructed?

1062 Penal [COUNCIL.] Institutions.

(b) What types of sleeping and messing accommodation, together with youth training facilities are-(i) now available; and (ii) in use?

(c) How many prisoners were accommodated and what staff was employed in the last year of its operation as a prison centre, and what were the respective age groupings of the prisoners?

(d) How many trainees are at present centred there, what staff is employed, and what are the respective age groupings of the trainees?

(e) What was the classification of the staff employed in each case in parts (c) and (d) of this question?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-As the answers to these questions are rather long, I suggest that they, too, with the leave of the House, be incorporated in Hansard without being read.


(a) Langi Kal Kal was taken over by the Department in May, 1949. The first prisoners were sent there during 1950, and the official opening took place on the 22nd February, 1951.

(b) Two dormitory blocks provide sleeping accommodation for trainees. Both dormitories are in use, but one is housing a small group only while it is being renovated. Messing facilities are provided in a communal dining-room. The cooking is done by the trainees under supervision.

There are trade-training facilities in panel beating, carpentry, motor mechanics and painting and decorating. At present, there is no instruction in motor mechanics as the instructor is on extended sick leave. In addition, trainees are engaged in rural activities on the 2,700-acre property. Trade training facilities are conducted in temporary improvised accommodation pending the buildin~ of an education centre. No school teacher IS on the staff, but it is anticipated that a teacher will take up duty in 1967.

(c) In the last year of its operation as a prison (July, 1964-June, 1965), the average monthly prisoner population of Langi. Kal Kal was as follows:-

July, 1964 116 August, 1964 110 September, 1964 92 October, 1964 77 November, 1964 76 December, 1964 83 January, 1965 85 February, 1965 91 March, 1965 110 April, 1965 116 May, 1965 115 June, 1965 105

Average for year 98

The staff establishment for this period was 33, plus two positions of school teacher. Prisoners were in the age group from seventeen to twenty years, inclusive.

(d) Fifty-five trainees are at present at the centre; ten more are awaiting transfer from the classification centre at Turana. This will bring the total at Langi Kal Kal to 65 by 25th October, 1966.

The staff establishment is 34, plus one position of school teacher. Vacancies exist for a superintendent, a school teacher and a fireman. A trade instructor (motor mechanics) is absent on extended sick leave. Hence the actual strength is at present 31.

(e) Establishment prior to 1st July, 1965 -Prisons Division. Technical and General Division:-

Superintendent 1 Chief prison officer .. 1 Senior prison officer 1 Prison officer 21 Farm manager 1 Trade instructor 5 Fireman 2 Assistant male, grade III. 1

Total 33

Establishment from 1st July, 1961-Youth Welfare Division. Professional Division:-

Superintendent class "A" 1 Assistant superintendent-

class "B-B1" 1 Technical and General Division:-

Chief youth officer .. 1 Senior youth officer 1 Youth officer 21 Farm manager 1 Trade instructor 5 Fireman 2 Assistant male, grade III. 1

Total 34

EDl}CATION DEPARTMENT.. ALTONA PRIMARY SCHOOL: ADDITIONAL CLASS-ROOMS.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has a contract been let for the erection of the two additional class-rooms at the Altona primary school; if so-(i) whe~; and (ii) what is the cause of the delay m building such class-rooms?

The Hon. (Minister of answer is

The Public. advised, "Yes."

(i) May, 1966.

G. L. CHANDLER Agriculture) .-The

Works Department has

Education [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Department. 1063

(ii) Negotiations with the contractor regarding variations to the contract to suit local conditions and the layout of the existing building.

MATRICULATION CLASSES: ALTERNA-TIVE ACCOMMODATION: ENROL-MENTS: STAFFING: TRAVEL ARRANGEMENTS.


(a) Further to question No. 15 asked in the House on 11th October, 1966, how many other secondary schools have been written to regarding the possibility of cutting out matriculation subjects next year?

(b) When were these schools written to, and by what date are they expected to reply?

(c) In each case, what is the name of the school, how many matriculants are involved, what subjects are involved, and what alternative arrangements are being proposed?

(d) If these schools and their advisory councils object to the proposals, what action will the Minister take?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-As the answer to question (a) is "None" , the other questions do not require replies.


(a) Where is alternative accommodation to be supplied in respect of the following three groups of schools-(i) seventeen schools which have been asked to limit the matriculation subjects taught in 1967; (ii) twenty-six schools which have been informed that they will not be providing matriculation classes in any subjects; and (iii) other country schools which will teach only English expression?

(b) In each case of alternative accommodation, what are the expected enrolments for matriculation without the additional pupils, and what are the present numbers of pupils in each school?

(c) Will the Minister comment on-(i) the likely effect of these decisions on the future staffing of these schools; and (ii) in the case· of country schools in each of the three categories in part (a) of this question, the distances pupils will have to travel, the bus arrangements that are being made for them, and the likely effect of this time lost on their examination success?

The Hon. (Minister of answers are-

G. L. CHANDLER Agriculture ).-The

(a) (i) Each of the seventeen schools concerned has been given a list of schools where alternative accommodation is available. This list varies from school to school. Eleven of the seventeen schools have no matriculation classes at present.

(ii) Each of the twenty-six schools has been advised as above. Only one of these schools has matriculation classes at present.

(iii) Each school was advised as above when requested to consider the proposal that certain subjects should be taken at other schools.

(b) As the list of alternative schools contains more than one school in most cases, it is not known at present at which school pupils will be enrolling. The total numbers involved are small and can be accommodated.

(c) (i) It is unlikely that the future staffing of these schools will be affected.

(ii) Of the seventeen schools referred to above, the only country districts involved are Geelong and Bendigo. Distances are small and public transport is available. Of the twenty-six schools, approximate distances are Newborough (2 miles) Trafalgar (5 miles) Queenscliff (19 miles) Ballarat Girls' (2 miles) Eaglehawk (5 miles) Merbein (7 miles) Red Cliffs (8 miles) Shepparton Girls' (1 mile).

School buses or public transport is available in each case. The time lost could be more than compensated for by the availability of direct instruction in all subjects, the advantage of working in bigger groups, and the wider range of subjects offered.

HIGH SCHOOL FOR PORT MELBOURNE -SOUTH MELBOURNE AREA: STUDY OF ENROLMENT TRENDS.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Mel-bourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What preliminary work has been done by the Education Department in respect of the need for a high school in the Port Melbourne-South Melbourne area?

(b) Has the Department determined what priority this area holds in respect of the establishment of a high school; if so, what is the scheduled announcement date?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are- .

(a) (i) Enrolments in secondary schools of pupils ex-grade VI. in primary ~chools have been carefully studied in each year recently to ascertain trends.

1064 Totalizator Agency Board. [COUNCIL.] Psychological Practices Act.

(ii) Grade enrolments at each level of each primary school in the area have been surveyed to determine likely variations in applications for enrolment in secondary schools.

(b) No.

CONSTRUCTION OF NEW WODONGA

TECHNICAL SCHOOL: TENDERS.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) When will tenders be called for the construction of the new Wodonga Technical School?

(b) In view of previous promises that tenders would be called at various times, what is the cause of the delay?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are-

(a) The Public Works Department expects to call tenders next month.

(b) Delay has been caused by the decision to build a complete school instead of a first section as originally proposed, the need to barrel and cover a large drain on the site, and by bad soil conditions about which information was not available until recently.

TOTALIZATOR AGENCY BOARD.

AGENTS' FEES.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Has the Totalizator Agency Board reduced the percentage paid to agents conducting the Board agencies; if so, what is the percentage now paid?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answer is-

In general terms, no.

The fee basis was amended by the Board in August, 1965, to arrive at a more equitable payment between large and small agencies.

Fees paid to agents in the year ended 31st July, 1966, represented 3.18 per cent. of agents' turnover, compared with 3.07 per cent. in the previous year.

PSYCHOLOGICAL PRACTICES ACT.

ADVERTISEMENT RE HYPNOTIC PRACTICES.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) asked the Minister of Health-

(a) Is he aware of an advertisement appearing in Truth newspaper of 15th October, 1966, under the heading "Give me just one evening and I'll teach you to hypnotize anyone"?

(b) When those sections dealing with hypnosis in the Psychological Practices Act 1965 are proclaimed, will he undertake to protect the public from advertisements which in fact invite them to break the law?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health).-The answers are-

(a) Yes.

(b) When the sections of the Act dealing with hypnosis are proclaimed, if any person infringes against these provisions, legal proceedings will be taken against him.

TOWN PLANNING. RUSSELL-STREET, MELBOURNE.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

Does any portion of Russell-street, Melbourne, come within the ambit of any traffic or transport town planning or redevelopment scheme; if so, what portion or portions?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-The answer is-

Russell-street, Melbourne, is within the planning area of two planning schemes, viz. the metropolitan scheme of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works, and the local scheme of the Melbourne City Council. Each of these bodies exercises control over development on both sides of the street by means of an interim development order.

I should add that it is not clear, from the form of the question, whether this is the information sought by Mr. Tripovich; if it is not, he may either ask another question or let me know, and I shall obtain any additional information he requires.

Mot6r OOIT (Hospitals and [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Charitie.(] Oontributions) Bill. 1065

DRAINAGE COMMITTEE. PROGRESS REPORT.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) presented

the second progress report of the D,rainage Committee, together with minutes of evidence.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table, and that the report be printed.

MOTOR CAR (HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES CONTRIBUTIONS)

BILL. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister

of Health) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

This Bill gives effect to the Government's proposal to increase the amount which is at present included in third-party insurance premiums and paid to hospitals towards the cost of providing the facilities and the treatment required in connexion with motor car accident cases. The legislation which first provided for. compulsory third-party insurance in relation to motor cars was introduced in 1939. At that time there was provIsIon for a maximum amount of Is. 9d. or 18 cents, to be included in all third-party insurance premiums to reimburse public hospitals for the expenses incurred in connexion with motor car accident cases. This amount was slightly more than 5 per cent. of the premium ef £1 13s., or $3.30, payable in respect of private cars garaged in the metropolitan area when the legislation came into operation early in 1941, and sInce then it has remained unaltered.

In view of the increase in hospital costs since 1939, the Government considers that the payments to hospitals from this source should be increased, and this Bill provides for the amount to be increased to $1.40. This is approximately 5 per cent. of the present premium for private cars in the metropolitan area. It will involve an increase in all third-party premiums by $1.22. It is estimated

that the additional hospital revenue from this source will amount to $1,400,000 in a full financial year.

Provision has been made in the Bill for the future adjustment of the amount included in all premiums for payment to hospitals in the event of increases in premium rates. The amount will be prescribed by the Governor in Council, but cannot exceed 5 per cent. of the· maximum premium payable in respect of a motor car used for private purposes.

In order to streamline the procedures relating to the distribution of the ~mount included in each premiuIJ;l

. among the relevant public hospitals, provision has been made for the payment of these amounts into the Hospitals and Charities Fund.

A transitory provision has been included in the Bill to deal specifically with the amounts included in the third-party premiums and deducted during the year ended 30th June, 1966, and also the amounts deducted during the current financial year up to the commencement of this amending legislation. In accordance with the existing legislation, these amounts have been paid and will be paid into the Motor Car (Hospital Payments) Fund.

The amount collected from the deductions made from third-party premiums during the financial year 1965-66 amounted to $202,373. This amount stands to the credit of the Motor Car (Hospital Payments) Fund, and in accordance with the existing legislation would be distributed later this year among the relevant public hospitals according to the facilities and treatment provided in respect of motor accident cases during the financial year 1965-66. The transitory provisions of the Bill retain the effect of the provisions of the existing legislation to enable this distribution to be made. In effect, this will provide for payment to the public hospitals of the amount collected from these deductions in

1066 Public Account [COUNCIL.] (Bona Vacantia) Bill.

1965-66 towards the costs incurred in respect of motor car cases during the same period.

The transitory provisions of the Bill also provide for the payment of deductions made as from the commencement of this financial year, and up to the date of the commencement of this amending legislation, to be paid to the Hospitals and Charities FUQd. All deductions made this financial year and in the future will accordingly be paid into the Hospitals and Charities Fund.

I assure honorable members that no hospital will be disadvantaged as a result of these moneys being channelled through the Hospitals and Charities Fund in the future. This procedure is being adopted in the interests of simplicity of administration and the quicker distribution of these funds to hospitals. Rather will the hospitals be advantaged by the increased amount of total funds available, and the elimination of the time lag, which is involved under the present legislation, in the distribution to the hospitals.

Clause 1 provides that the legislation shall come into operation on a date to be proclaimed by the Governor in Council. This is necessary for administrative purposes. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tue~day, October 25.

PUBLIC ACCOUNT (BONA VACANTIA) BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 move~


This Bill has been prepared on advice from the Crown Solicitor, and it constitutes a means of resolving certain legal problems and administrative difficulties which have arisen with the handling of bona vacantia,

which is a term that is applied to things which no one can legally claim to be their own property-for example, the residual estate of people who die intestate and without next of kin. It also takes in such things as wrecks and treasure trove and, according to notes with which I have been supplied, to waifs and strays. I presume those are animals.

The legal position is that these items of bona vacantia become the property of the Crown. I must differ from the notes that have been supplied, which state that they may be paid into Consolidated Revenue. I think the reference means that when the property is converted into money the proceeds must be paid into· the Consolidated Revenue of the State.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-How can a waif be converted into money?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-If the waif were a cat or dog, I suppose it could be sold. In practice, most bona vacantia cases arise as result of a person dying without leaving a will, and without wife, children or next of kin, particularly in cas'es of illegitimacy. Cases have arisen from time to time where representations have been made to the Government by persons requesting that they be paid all or part of an estate which is legally bona vacantia-for. example, a blood relative of a deceased illegitimate person who has died without leaving a will, or the dependants of a person who has died intestate without next of kin and who would, under normal circumstances, perhaps reasonably have expected, if there had been a will, some provision to .be made for them.

In the past, where it was felt that these cases were of a deserving character, it was the practice of th~ Crown to waive all or part of its rights to the bona vacantia, and. to have a' deed of assignment executed by the Governor in Co~ncil and given to t~e person in whose ·favour the Crown's rights were. waived.· This

Public Account [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Bona Vacantia) Bill. 1067

practice had been followed, I understand, for many years by Governments of all parties. However, recent advice from the Crown Solicitorand this is a reason for this measure -raised doubts whether this was a legal practice and whether the Crown could in fact waive its rights to bona vacantia. The Crown Solicitor formed the opinion that, strictly speaking, as the law now stands, a Parliamentary appropriation was necessary in each case.

The position is that either Parliament must approve each individual payment of bona vacantia as a separate item in the Appropriation Act, or it must give the Executive discretionary power to deal with these matters of bona vacantia as they arise. In the light of the advice of the Crown Solicitor, and having regard to the circumstances and the very well-established practice, it is considered that cases involving bona vacantia can best be handled without the necessity of seeking specific Parliamentary appropriation in each case. Therefore, the purpose of this simple Bill is to authorize the Treasurer to decide each case involving bona vacantia on its merits, and to distribute all or part of the bona vacantia to such person or persons as is reasonable in the circumstances.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Was the Crown Solicitor concerned about the statute law or the common law?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I should think it would be the common law. When public funds are dispersed, Parliamentary approval should be obtained. That is the general gist of the advice received from the Crown Solicitor.

Sub-section '( 4) of proposed new section 21A, in clause 2 of the Bill, probably needs a little explanation. Section 19 of the Public Trustee Act already empowers the Treasurer, with the approval of the Governor in Council, to direct how the proceeds -of the estate of an illegitimate per-son who died intestate and whose estate has been administered by the

Public Trustee shall be distributed. For that reason, it is not necessary to apply the new provision to the Public Trustee Act.

This is a technical Bill which will enable what has been the practice of successive Governments over the years to be continued in a convenient way and probably with justice to persons who make application for all or part of bona vacantia. It seems to be a reasonable discretion to give to the Treasurer, and I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.



The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


The purpose of this Bill to enable the property situated at 412 Collinsstreet, Melbourne, and known as the State Accident Insurance Office to be sold by private treaty.

In 1938, the State Accident Insurance Fund Act amended the Workers Compensation Act 1928 to enable such portion of the Reserve Fund established under the Workers Compensation Act to be invested in the purchase by the Board of Land and Works of a building to be used by the State Accident Insurance Office. By virtue of that Act, the premises at 412 Collins-street were acquired late in the year 1938, and, after partial reconstruction, were occupied by the State Accident Insurance Office, the State Motor Car Insurance Office, the Public Trustee and the Workers Compensation Board.

In the years between 1957 and 1960, it became increasingly obvious that, because of the rapidly expanding business of the State Insurance Offices, it would be necessary to

1068 State Accident Insurance [COUNCIL.] Q~ Land Bill.

obtain premises which would more adequately enable the Offices to conduct their business. However, because of lack of legislative power and the fact that a suitable building was not available at a reasonable price, nothing was done.

In 1961, Parliament enacted the State Accident Insurance Office Act to enable the Reserve Fund· of the State Accident Insurance Office to be used for the purchase, by the Minister of Public Works, of land and buildings to be used for the purpose of and for the efficient working of the State Accident Insurance Office. It was envisaged at that time that an appreciable part of the cost of the new property would be obtained from the sale of 412 Collins-street. Accordingly, provision was made in that Act that any land or buildings no longer required for the purposes of or for the efficient working of the State Accident Insurance Office might be sold and the proceeds paid into the Reserve Fund. Those provisions have now been incorporated in sections 68A and 71 of the Workers Compen· sation Act, as reprinted as at 29th March, 1966.

The State Accident Insurance Office and the State Motor Car Insurance Office have now moved into premises, which are highly satisfactory for insurance purposes, at 480 Collinsstreet, Melbourne. Accordingly, the premises at 412 Collins-street are no longer required for the purposes of the State Accident Insurance Office and, pursuant to the power con· tained in section 71 of the Workers Compensation Act, have been offered for sale. This has been done on two separate occasions, but a buyer has not been obtained. The upset price on the first occasion was $540,000, and on the second occasion it was $445,000.

In view of the failure so far to sell the property by auction, the Government considers it desirable to offer the property for sale by private treaty. However, this cannot

The Hon. G. L. Chandler.

be done under the present law. Accordingly, clause 2 of the Bill empowers the Governor in Council to sell the property either by public or private sale. Clause 3 provides that the proceeds from the sale, less costs and charges, shall be paid to the Reserve Fund established pursuant to the Workers Compensation Act 1958. This seems to be a reasonable Bill, and I commen~ it to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. Archibald Todd, for the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.


HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES (LIABILITY OF PATIENTS) BILL

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. The principal purpose of this Bill is to enable hospitals to recover, as far as possible, the full cost of treating those patients in public hospitals who are entitled to recover the cost of such treatment from a third party. These patients would be generally motor car accident and workers compensation cases. As will be seen from the long title of the Bill, the repeal of one Act and amendment of four others is necessary to achieve the desired objective.

Prior to a decision in the Supreme Court in 1957 in the case of Francombe v. Holloway, it had been the practice in all public hospitals in Victoria for motor car accident and workers compensation cases to be charged full bed costs. Such patients were also charged fees for medical services provided by honorary medical officers of the hospi,tal concerned. Both hospital fees and doctors charges in such cases were usually met by some insurance organization acting for the person liable to pay compensation or damages.

The Supreme Court decision referred to stopped these practices. That decision was to the effect that

Hospitals and Charities [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Liability of Patients) Bill. 1069

a plaintiff was entitled to recover only the hospital and medical fees and expenses tha t he was legally obliged to pay. Consequently, where a patient was admitted to and treated in a public ward of a public hospital as a result of a motor car accident, the conditions governing charges and fees for public ward patients were those to be applied. Similarly, workers compensation cases admitted in emergency to public wards also had to be charged for as public ward patients.

At the time of this decision, every public ward patient was liable to be charged an amount of 36s. a day. This was the amount fixed under the Hospital Benefits Act then current. This daily bed charge for public ward patients has been increased several times since that date-it is now $10.00 per day and, even at that rate, is substantially below the average cost per bed in a public hospital. This may be as high as $16 and, when it is realized that accident cases usually require treatment in maximum care wards, even this average cost figure may be lower than the actual cost of treatment.

It has been estimated that the cost of treating' motor car accident and workers compensation cases in public hospitals is at least $1,000,000 in excess of the total sum that may be charged for such cases. There is a further loss of perhaps $375 000 sustained each year by p~blic hospitals in respect of hospital fees for damages and compensation cases which for a variety of reasons cannot be collected. It is expected that this Bill, when it becomes law, will ensure that hospitals are able to collect as far as possible the full costs of hospital treatment of accident victims from insurers, thereby reducing the demands made by hospitals upon State revenue.

Clause 10 of the Bill will repeal the Hospital Benefits Act 1958 and overcome the effect of the 1957 Supreme Court decision by making every patient in a public hospital

Session 1966.-37

liable to pay the full bed cost. However, where a patient in a public ward has no right to recover the costs of his hospital treatment from some third-party, hospital committees will not be allowed to demand more than $10 a day or such other amount as may be fixed by regulation from time to time. These particular provisions are being inserted in section 70 of the Hospitals and Charities Act 1958. In addition to the safeguards already existing in this section, that contained in the proviso to sub-section (3) of section 5 of the Hospital Benefits Act to be repealed by this Bill-

.. Provided that no proceedings for the recovery of any debt due . . . shall be instituted without the consent of the Minister . . ."-

is being re-enacted in a wider form as a proviso to sub-section (2) of section 70. Under the new proviso, the Minister is required to have regard to the extent to which the patient concerned has received, or is likely to receive, damages or compensation before giving any authority to recover fees due by a patient.

In addition to hospital fees, provision is also being made for the recovery by medical practitioners and dentists of fees for medical and dental services provided to patients in public wards of a public hospital where such patients are entitled to receive compensation or damages with respect to their bodily harm. These proviSions are set out in clause 5 of the Bill, and take the form of a new section 70A to be added to the Hospitals and Charities Act. Here again, the consent of the Minister will be necessary before a patient may be sued for the nonpayment of these fees. Power is also being given to make regulations fixing the maximum charges that may be levied by doctors and dentists in such cases.

Clause 3, which inserts a new section 74A in the principal Act, introduces a provision which is new to hospital legislation in this State,

1070 Hospitals and Oharities [COUNCIL.] (Liability of Patients) Bill.

although it is based on Commonwealth social services legislation. One of the difficulties associated with the collection of fees from patients entitled to receive compensation or damages in respect of some injury is that payment can be made either direct to the patient or through a solicitor without the hospital who treated him being aware of the payment. At times, the payment made might include a specific sum for the payment of hospital charges. By the new section 74A, it is proposed to set out a code whereby an institution, as soon as it notifies a person entitled to receive compensation or damages that it intends to recover the full cost of treatment, shall be kept informed of payments to be made to the patient or his representative and shall be able to claim the cost of treatment. Any payment made in contravention of the provisions of the new section will not absolve the person liable to pay compensation from a responsibility to meet the full cost of hospital treatment.

I have explained the principal matters in the Bill. There are also in clauses 8 and 9 consequential modifications to both the Motor Car Act 1958 and the Workers Compensation Act 1958. Consequent upon the repeal of the Hospital Benefits Act 1958, there is also an amendment proposed to section 48 of the Cancer Act 1958, which relates to charges for patients in the Cancer Institute. The amendment as shown in clause 7 does not in any way alter the present arrangements for payment for patients at the Institute but is inserted to continue those arrangements after the repeal.

There is one other matter in the Bill which is not related to the general principle of the measure, although it does amend the Hospitals and Charities Act. This is the simple cc statute law revision" type of amendment contained in clause 6, which will enable the Second, Third and Fourth Schedules of the Hospitals and Charities Act to be brought up


to date whenever that Act is reprinted in accordance with the Amendments Incorporation Act 1958.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF

WORKS (RECONSTITUTION) BILL. The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister

for Local Government) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

As all honorable members know, the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works is a regional authority, consisting of representatives from the councils of various municipalities in the metropolis. It was established, and has continued in operation for the purpose of providing for water supply, sewerage, main drainage and town planning and, since 1956, for metropolitan main highways and bridges, major parks and foreshore works.

The Board comprises a chairman and 51 members, but the Act makes provision for a review every five years so that representation on the Board may be adjusted to keep pace with the growth of the metropolis. The last Act which reconstituted the Board was passed in 1959. It required the Board to convene a conference in the year 1963 of all municipalities represented on the Board to consider and make recommendations to the Minister as to the representation of councils or groups of councils on the Board. That conference was duly held and it submitted its recommendations for a Board of 51 members-that is the present Board membership-with Malvern being reduced from two representatives to one, and Eltham and Whittle sea being given separate representation by one member each, all other representation being unaltered.

Melbourne and Metropolitan Board [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] of Works (Reconstitution) Bill. 1071

The Government decided not to act on these recommendations immediately because, in the year 1964, the whole of the metropolitan area was being revalued and it waS thought proper to await the outcome of that revaluation, with perhaps resultant changes in the net values of the various municipal areas. That has always been quite a factor in determining representation on the Board. The conference met again in April, 1965, and on that occasion it made different recommendations which I shall explain to the House.

The first recommendation was that the Board should comprise 51 members. The second recommendation was that Melbourne should have three representatives-it now has four-that Camberwell and Moorabbin should each have two representatives; that Berwick and Cranbourne should be grouped to elect one representative; and that all other municipalities should have one representative each. The net effect of these recommendations would have been to reduce by one the representation of the Caulfield, Malvern, Melbourne, Prahran, and St. Kilda municipalities, and to give one representative to the following municipalities previously combined in groups: -Bulla, Chelsea, Eltham, Frankston, Keilor, Knox, Melton, Werribee, and Whittlesea.

The Government has given careful consideration to these recommendations and, with the exception of the shires of Berwick and Cranbournewhich the conference proposed should be combined in a group to elect one representative-has accepted them. However, each of these two municipalities has a higher valuation subject to the Board's rating than other municipalities for which separate representation was suggested, and the Government believes than an appropriate course would be to add an additional member to the Board, making a total of 52, and to give both Berwick and Cranbourne one representative each. The Bill has been prepared on that basis.

All of the municipalities within the Board's area have been given separate representation on the Board, although provision has been retained for groups being subsequently included, should it prove desirable, in the event of any new municipality being constituted or any portions of municipalities not now within the metropolis or the Board's planning area being brought in. The term of many of the present members of the Board will expire on the last day of February, 1967 and the Bill will come into operation on the 1st March, 1967.

Sir PERCY BYRNEs.-What is the term of office of the new members?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It is set out in the schedule to the Bill; it varies according to how long they have been members. Clauses 2 to 7 make the necessary amendments to the principal Act increasing the number of members from 51 to 52 and abolishing the groups at present existing. Further, clause 4 provides for the convening of another conference in the year 1971 to reconsider the basis of representation on the Board. Clause 8 provides a new Third Schedule setting out the representation of each council on the Board. A new Fourth Schedule setting out the dates on which the respective members of the Board retire is contained in clause 9, and clause lOis a transitory provision to enable the present representation to be adjusted to the new basis.

Sub-clause (4) of clause 10 provides for all those municipalities previously in groups to elect one representative each within six weeks of the passing of the Act, and within the same period those municipalities whose representation is being reduced will be required to determine which one of their representatives will cease to be a member of the Board. The City of Melbourne will be required to determine the order in which its remaining three representatives will retire.

1072 Melbourne and Metropolitan [COUNCIL.] Board of Worlcs (Reconstitution) Bill.

This Bill is similar to measures which from time to time have been passed by this Parliament for the revision of representation, but I think this will be more satisfactory than previous Bills because, for the first time since 1944, it gives individual representation to all councils within the Board's area. This will be regarded by the councils concerned as a great advance.

It is appropriate that I should tell honorable members of the activities and the scale of operations of the Board. For the five years to the 30th June of this year, it has been responsible for substantial expenditure in the metropolitan area. The Board has spent, on water supply, $41,000,000; on sewerage, $76,000,000 ; on drainage and rivers, $10,500,000; and on plant, equipment, depots and similar matters, $9,500,000. The total expenditure over that five-year period has been $137,000,000. As the result of that expenditure, there are now 612,844 premises connected to water supply in the metropolitan area and only 244 premises, outside the area of the water mains, have not been connected. There have been 467,705 premises connected to the sewerage system. and over the years the new connexions have more than kept pace with the new premises being erected. There has been a reduction in the number of unsewered premises in the metropolitan area.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-There are quite a number of septic tanks in use.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is so, but the number is gradually being reduced. There is a difficulty in relation to sewerage where development is scattered. It is the object of the Board to sewer every property in due course. Those figures are impressive, and they reflect great credit on the Board and its administration. Melbourne is well served with a water supply and, to an everincreasing extent, with C)ewerage.

In addition to those activities, the Board has a metropolitan master plan, which makes provision for 21,000 acres of public open space, which might generically be described as parklands and passive and active recreation areas. When the plan was introduced there were existing 11,000 acres, largely in the central city area, and a further 2,000 acres have since been purchased at a cost of over $6,000,000. I stress the cost of providing these public open spaces which, up to the present time, have cost more than $3,000 per acre.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-That is a charge by the Board to the councils.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It constitutes a revolving fund; the councils pay it back to the Board over a period. For reservations and construction in relation to metropolitan main highways, there has been a further expenditure of over $9,000,000. I mention these facts in order that honorable members will recognize that the Board of Works is a large business enterprise; it operates in a manner similar to county councils in other parts of the world. Sometimes there is a tendency, because of its size, to regard the Board as necessarily inefficient. I refute this suggestion; it is not inefficient. It might be inefficient if it tried to decide everything all the time with its 51 members. But in fact it operates with considerable expertize in committees of eight or nine members. They are staffed with efficient engineers and other officers who are capable of doing the job.

History has shown that this large organization has met the challenge and carried out the task Parliament has given it. It has an excellent staff comprising efficient officers. Over the years it has fulfilled Melbourne's needs in a way in which we would expect a county council to do. I do not regard its size as a handicap. It is comprised of representatives from individual councils and therein lies its greatest strength. This Bill provides an expansion in representation

Waler (Amendment) [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1073

to municipalities interested in Board of Works matters and expenditure. It is a distinct step forward and I commend it to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, November 2.

WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL. The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister

of Health) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Bill proposes a number of simple but important general amendments to the Water Act. Some of these measures will clarify and improve the administrative procedures of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. Others have been requested by the Waterworks Trusts Association of Victoria to facilitate the administration of country town water supplies by local authorities, and to bring their procedures closer to those followed by local sewerage authorities and municipal councils under their respective Acts.

Under section 12 of the Water Act, the Commission may require that any private weir or dam in a stream be removed or altered. One of the essential requirements is that a valve be installed at the base of a dam to allow the natural flow of the stream to pass unimpeded along the watercourse in times of low summer flow. Whilst this has generally been complied with, some selfish diverters do not open the valve when requested to do so and, as well as using the water stored in their dam for irrigation, also use the small inflow which should be allowed to pass downstream to their neighbours. The Bill will make it an offence for an owner to fail to operate his dam as directed by the Commission.

Another provision places beyond doubt the authority of the Commission to require a subdivider in an

irrigation district to meet the cost of access facilities necessitated by his subdivision. In conformity with recent amendments to the Local Government Act, it is also provided that fees prescribed by regulation may be levied by the Commission for the investigation of subdivisions and the sealing of plans.

The Hon. P. V. PELTHAM.-Have you any idea what those changes will be?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I shall obtain that information for Mr. Feltham.

A further amendment makes a small reduction in the general rate in irrigation districts so as to make machine accounting more practicable. Another increases the minimum amount of drainage and flood protection rates sufficiently to cover the cost of collection.

The Bill also provides that by-laws restricting the use of water may be applied only to part of an urban district instead of to the whole of the area within the district boundary as is required at present. Provision is made for an acting member of the Board of Examiners of Engineers of Water Supply to be appointed in circumstances when it is impracticable for a member to carry out his duties for a period. The issue by the Board of Examiners of a certificate of qualification as an engineer of water supply without examination is being made contingent on the candidate having been employed in a responsible professional capacity in charge of water works for a period of at least five years. At present a certificate may be issued on the basis of only one year's experience. To minimize the payment of high legal costs, the Bill includes a provision to increase from $600 to $1,000 the amount of rates and charges which may be recovered by a default summons in a Court of Petty Sessions. The Bill also prescribes a form on which vendors are to notify the Commission of the sale of rateable land under section 373 of the Water Act.

1074 Water (Amendment) [COUNCIL.] Bill.

This will make the Water Act procedure in this matter similar to the requirements of the Land Tax Act and the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Act.

A number of amendments directly affecting local water authorities have been requested by the Waterworks Trusts Association. One such amendment will enable a waterworks trust to overcome a situation in which it could be without a quorum due to the disqualification of commissioners who have an interest in contracts, &c., under consideration. The amendment is similar to the existing provision for such circumstances contained in the Local Government Act and there is also an amendment to cover meetings of the Ballarat Water Commissioners, which are dealt with in a separate section of the Act. The Bill also clarifies the procedure for commISSIoners of waterworks trusts and the Ballarat Water Commissioners to resign, and provides that such resignations must be in writing.

Another amendment eliminates the current requirements that rating bylaws for waterworks and urban districts must be published in full in the Government Gazette and a local newspaper. However, the authority will still be required to publish a notice of making the by-law, and a summary of it, as for all other bylaws made under the Water Act. The amendment will also apply to rating by-laws made by the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission for its urban districts only.

A further amendment authorizes a municipal council, as an applicant for constitution of a new waterworks trust, to make geological investigations of possible sites for works. This authority was provided some time ago for established waterworks trusts in respect of approved works.

Another amendment will enable a waterworks trust or local governing body to remove from its accounts irrecoverable rates and charges. This


action will be initiated on the recommendation of the auditor and will require the approval of the Minister in each case. Another amendment of a machinery nature removes any doubt that all loan moneys received by a waterworks trust or local governing body are to be paid in to only one "Loan Account". I commend this Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.


BEES BILL. The debate (adjourned from

October 4) on the motion of the Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-1 appreciate the action of the Minister in agreeing to the debate on this Bill being adjourned, which enabled me to make inquiries within the industry as to the effect of the Bill. In his second-reading speech, the Minister indicated that numerous discussions had taken place between those engaged in the industry and the departmental offic.ers who administer the present Act. I have been pleased to receive the full co-operation of people connected with the industry. They indicated to me that, although they were pleased with the negotiations which had taken place, they were not fully aware of nor conversant with a number of clauses in the Bill at the time of those discussions, and they were quite concerned about the possible effects of some of the new proposals.

To some people, the industry may appear to be rather small and insignificant, but I believe it to be important because it plays its part in producing a healthy food for home consumption, and it also plays a small part in Australia's export trade.

Bees [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1075

In Victoria, 1,276 beekeepers are registered. In 1964-65, these beekeepers produced 9,181,000 lb. of honey and 105,000 lb. of wax. Those engaged in the industry are pleased that their products are valued in all States of the Commonwealth and are encouraged that, during the past three years, there has been a gradual rise in the consumption of honey right throughout Australia. 1f the per head consumption of honey in Australia rose by only three-quarters of a pound, Australia's total production of honey would be consumed within Australia, and any further increase in consumption would have to be met from imported honey. A rise in consumption of three-quarters of a pound per head is not a great increase. There has been a 20 per cent. increase in honey consumption in Australia in the last twenty years. In Germany the consumption of honey per year is II! lb. per head. It is easy to envisage that, in the not far distant future, Australia will not produce enough honey for home consumption. If that position is reached, the industry will benefit greatly.

Although, in some respects, this is an amending Bill, it re-writes the Bees Act of 1958, and it will have far-reaching effects on the industry. There are many aspects of the Bill which my party and those actively engaged in the industry think should be given further consideration. For the present, I shall mention only those clauses which the industry feels need some clarification or with which it is not in accord. Clause 3 contains this definition of cc appliances ,,_

.. Appliances" means any fittings utensils apparatus or implements other than hives that are or have been used or that in the opinion of an inspector are being or have been used in beekeeping or in handling housing or storing bees honeycomb beeswax honey or other products of a hive.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It is very wide.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The definition is very wide. The industry is concerned about jUF:t how wide it

is, particularly as, to some extent, its interpretation is left to the discretion of the inspector. The industry wants to know specifically what appliances will come under this definition. Will a beekeeper's truck, which is part of his equipment, be construed to be an appliance? Could an extracting plant be considered to be an appliance? These points are very important to beekeepers. I have no criticism of the members of the Department who administer the Act-on the contrary I have only admiration for them-but there will be changes in the personnel. The officers administering the Act will have a great deal of discretion which, if unwisely used, could completely disrupt this very important industry.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-All those items which are likely to come into contact with contaminated or diseased hives could not be enumerated in a Bill.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The Bill already enumerates a very wide range of items under the definition of "appliances". For that reason, the industry would definitely like to know whether, for instance, a truck could be so construed. This is an extremely important question as later clauses provide that an inspector has power to declare an area an isolated area. A beekeeper could be caught with his truck in a proclaimed area and be unable to move it for some time.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Until it was disinfected.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Or until other conditions were met. The Bill does not provide that an item need only be disinfected. The inspector will be able to exercise very wide powers. In clause 3, "disease" is defined as follows-

.. Disease" means any disease parasite or pest declared by the Governor in Council by proclamation to be a disease within the meaning of this Act.

Very broad powers are given to the Governor in Council to proclaim a disease within the meaning of the

1076 Bees [COUNCIL.] Bill,

Act. There is only one serious contagious disease which affects bees in Australia as far as is known, and that is American foul brood. That disease is extremely contagious and could wipe out numerous hives in a very short time. Wax moth could be caught under the definition of U disease", but wax moth is not a disease but a pest. In some instances, it is a blessing in disguise, because it could wipe out a hive infected with American foul brood.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-It is like 'a country plague.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-We would sometimes hope that it had a little success in Parliament.

I realize that it is important to deal with American foul brood and wax moth, but I wish to be informed whether the Government has in mind the proclamation of any other disease or pest under the Act. The industry is not aware of any other serious disease, parasite or pest that could necessitate proclamation of an area. This provision puts a great deal of power into the hands of an inspector who may be unscrupulous and who may victimize a particular man engaged in this industry. I should appreciate it.if the Minister would indicate whether it is the Government's intention to proclaim any other parasite, disease or pest. I believe persons engaged in the industry are entitled to be informed on this point.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-As I understand the position, the answer is "no", but if you informed me that there was no other disease in the industry, other than those you have mentioned, I could not dispute it.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I have not said that.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! Mr. Bradbury is entitled to mention points that he intends to raise in Committee, but

the deails of any proposals should be discussed in Committee rather than at the second-reading stage.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.Thank you, Mr. President. Sub-clause (1) of clause 4 provides, inter alia-

The Governor in Council may by proclamation published in the Government Gazette-

(a) declare any defined portion of Victoria in which any disease exists to be a "proclaimed area" for the purposes of this Act;

This is an extremely vague provision because it mentions U any defined portion of Victoria" . A beekeeper may have a dozen hives in one spot and 500 or 600 hives at another location 15 or 20 miles away. An inspector could recommend that an area within a 20-mile radius should be proclaimed, or that only a small area should be proclaimed. When the discovery of the infected or diseased bees was made the beekeeper could have his extraction plant and his truck within the proclaimed area. This is an important point because the beekeeper's truck may be " grounded ", so to speak, for some time, and he would not be able to take it out of the proclaimed area in order to work his bees in another area some miles away. I think the Minister appreciates that this is an exacting industry. In some years, the flow of honey comes in a very short period of time-sometimes only three weeks, or a month-and, if a beekeeper's truck and extraction 'plant were "grounded" in a particular area which had been proclaimed, he could be extremely embarrassed or even lose his livelihood.

In recent years, it has been the practice of beekeepers to have a central or home extraction plant. Many such plants are operating in Victoria to-day, and I am sure the Department is encouraging their use. In my district, where there is a strong branch of the Apiarists Association, a number of regular field days have been held. Last year the Director of Agriculture officially opened the field day at Glenrowan when between

Bees [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1077

2,000 and 3,000 people attendedpeople even from South Africa and New Zealand. At that field day the persons who attended were shown the new extraction plants which are rapidly becoming part and parcel of the industry and which are now located in cities and towns throughout the State.

In Wangaratta there are a number of apiarists who have home extraction plants. If one or two hives within the town were found to be diseased and if an area was proclaimed, all of those home extraction plants within the City of Wangaratta could be put out of operation. No honey could be brought in to be treated, and no honey could be taken out. If a truck can be regarded as an II appliance", it could not be taken out of the proclaimed area, and, some people could lose their livelihood within a few days.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-They would be really Ie stung ".

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-That is true.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I had better withdraw the Bill.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-No, we appreciate that this measure is a genuine attempt to bring the Act up to date, but I am sure the Minister does not subscribe to the principle that merely because a Bill is introduced it must be accepted holus-bolus without any attempt being made to improve it from the industry's point of view.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-But I should have liked to hear its good points.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-As I said at the outset, I do not desire to prolong this debate, but, if the Minister wishes, I shall discuss all the clauses and mention their good or bad points. I do not want to do that. and I wish to be helpful, because I believe the Minister and the Department are endeavouring to improve the conditions under which persons

engaged in this industry are working. This Act has been on the sta tutebook without amendment since, I think, 1933 or 1935, and it is about time it was brought up to date. I do not think the Minister means that I should go through the Bill and mention the good points as well as the bad points, and I do not intend to do that. I propose to deal with the Bill in a constructive manner and to point out where improvements could be made to benefit the industry and also the persons who will have to administer the Act: '

Sub-clause (3) of clause 4 provides a penalty of $200 for any offence against the Act. The principal Act contained a penalty of $40. The Minister's second-reading notes mention that although $40 may have been a reasonable penalty back in the middle 1930's, it is not in keeping with present-day money values. I accept the statement, but I remind the House that the price of honey has not been increased in the past fifteen years. Therefore, there is no justification for saying that, because the penalty was only $40 in the middle 1930's, it should now be increased to $200, which is a rather steep penalty.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 5 relates to the power to destroy diseased bees and provides-

If within twenty-four hours after the service of such order upon an owner agent or person in charge the bees are not destroyed any inspector or person authorized in writing in that behalf by an inspector (whether generally or in any particular case) may destroy the bees or cause them to be destroyed at the expense of the owner thereof.

Is there to be no elasticity in relation to the 24 hours within which a person must destroy 'diseased bees?

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-Is there not a similar provision in the existing Act?

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I realize that, but we are attempting to bring the Act up to date.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-Has not that provision worked in the past?

1078 Bees [COUNCIL.] Bill.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-It has not, and it could not have worked on certain days because of the declaration of fire danger days. Last year, at one stage, three or four days in succession were declared fire danger days. In that case, how could the owner of diseased bees, having received the necessary notice, destroy his bees within 24 hours?

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-He does not need to light a fire, does he?

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Yes, he has to destroy them by burning. That is provided in the Act. The boxes have to be destroyed, also, but the appliances may be disinfected. I ask that consideration be given to the question of declared fire danger days so that an owner who receives a notice to destroy his bees may be given a reasonable time in which to carry out the instructions of the inspector.

I turn now to clause 12, which provides for the registration of beekeepers and the fees payable for such registration. I admit that this provision is in the principal Act, but I do not know its purpose or how it can be properly implemented. It provides, inter alia-

Where a person keeps or proposes to keep at least one but not more than five hives ...

I refer in particular to the word " proposes" which seems to indicate that before a man actually owns a hive or hives he must register it or them. How could a person comply with this provision when, in many instances, he has not made a firm decision as to how many hives he intends to buy? It would also be impossible strictly to interpret the meaning of the provision, because a beekeeper who wishes to take a nucleus hive off a large hive must register the nucleus hive because he proposes to keep it. However, when he takes the lid off the hive, he may find that it is not wise to break up the hive at that stage. So, he cannot strictly comply with the provision.

Clause .14 provides that notice must be given of the disposal of any hive, and the beekeeper must cancel his registered brand in the prescribed manner at the time of disposal. The current method of branding hives is by burning the brand into the box and if the owner wishes to cancel that brand he can do so only by burning it out, and that will leave an unsightly hole in the front of the box from which bees could escape when a new hive is put into it at a later date. Permission could surely be given for the new brand to be burnt over the top of the old one.

Clause 19 provides-Any beekeeper shall upon receiving notice

from an inspector so to do, attend at his hives at the time specified in the notice, and remove or cause to be removed from any hive such frame or honeycomb as the inspector may require and facilitate the inspection thereof by the inspector.

Surely the Government does not intend to be unreasonable and have notices posted to beekeepers informing them that inspectors will inspect their hives on a particular day with ... out giving reasonable notice. A bee~ keeper could be busy attending to his flow of honey in another part of theState. He may have 100 hives in one area and another 200 many miles away. Surely he is not expected to "down tools" at the whim of an inspector in order to be present at a certain spot so that his hives may be inspected.

The Hon. K. S. GROSS.-It does noi say that he has to do so immediately.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-No time is specified ; the inspector could state whatever time he wished. Members of my party think reasonable notice would be seven to ten days. The actual inspection of the hive is not an arduous job.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE . ....,....1t is a dangerous job.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-It can be dangerous because in a poor season the bees become cantankerous, hungry and vicious. If one opens a hive at such a time, the bees are

Bees [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Bill. 1079

likely to kill bees from other hives and even the queen bee. For that reason, more consideration should be given to the clause. In addition, there is a doubt as to whether or not it is necessary for the owner to be present at the time that the hive is being inspected.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Under the conditions to which you refer it would not be difficult to get rid of the inspector.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The inspectors are capable men and know how to handle a hive. Few of them get stung. If the purpose of the inspection is to determine whether or not the hive is diseased or infected by parasites, is it reasonable to ask that the beekeeper be present?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I think it would be unreasonable if he was not given the opportunity of being present.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I agree, but according to clause 19 he must attend at the time specified by the inspector. If the inspector is searching for wax moth, all he is required to do is to lift the lid and remove the slides which, even when full of honey, weigh only from 3 to 5 lb. It would not be unreasonable to ask the inspector to do that job himself. Members of my party desire that the beekeeper be given at least seven days' notice of the proposed inspection.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 21 provides-

Any hives found on Crown lands in respect of which no bee farm licence bee range area licence or apiary occupation right pursuant to the Forests Act 1958 or the Land Act 1958 is currently in existence shall be deemed to be abandoned.

Anyone can make a mistake, and the Minister of Forests knows that the Forests Commission issues licences to many beekeepers throughout the State and the locations on which the beekeeper may put his bees is not always accurately stated on the licence. In addition, it

is often difficult to determine what is Crown land and what is forest land; and on other occasions there are no dividing fences between Crown land and freehold land. This makes it difficult to determine the exact location.

Frequently, men in the industry receive permission from a private landowner to put their bees on his land, and when they arrive they find that there is no boundary fence between the freehold land and the Crown land. So, it is quite easy for a beekeeper to be 10 or 15 chains out in the location of his hives, with the result that he places them on Crown land instead of on freehold land. Another example could be that a beekeeper would be holding a licence issued by the Forests Commission and not one from the Lands Department and he may inadvertently put his hives on Crown land instead of on land owned by the Commission. However, in such circumstances the inspector could declare these hives to be abandoned and have them destroyed.

In view of the fact that it is mandatory for the beekeeper to have his hives branded, could not the inspector contact the owner of the brand before he took such drastic action as declaring the hives to be abandoned? So, we ask that some sympathy be extended to the bee .. keepers in the administration of this clause, and that at least seven days' notice be given to the owner of the brand which appears on the hive before the hive is declared to be abandoned and is destroyed.

Sub-clause (1) of clause 25 provides-

Where any order in accordance with the provisions of this Act or the regulations is made or given by an inspector, any person authorized in writing in that behalf by an inspector (whether generally or in any particular case) may supervise the carrying out of the order.

Members of the Country Party are not satisfied that the inspector should have power to delegate this authority,

1080 Bees [COUNCIL.] Bill.

which should be under the control of a skilled person, and the inspectors have such skills. The inspector should not have power to delegate this important authority to some unknown person. There is nothing to prevent the inspector from delegating the power to me, and I know very little about bees. It should be the responsibility of the inspector to ensure that the order is carried out.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-What qualifications are required of an inspector?

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The Department of Agriculture has a research establishment at Scoresby,' where a senior inspector of the apiarist branch tutors the inspectors. The Department is doing important work in assisting the industry, and we have confidence in its officers, but we trust that power will not be· delegated to persons who are not fully competent to implement the Act, with consequent injustice to the industry. We welcome the Bill, and appreciate the Department's efforts to bring the provisions of the Bees Act up to date. However, I point out that, until the Bill was sent to the representatives of the industry following the Minister's secondreading speech, full knowledge of its contents was· not available to these people. They have offered suggestions and constructive criticism of the Bill, with the object of improving it from the point of view of both the industry and the Department, so that its implementation will be practicable and not haphazard. In conclusion, my party supports the measure, but urges the Minister to consider the points I have raised.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province).-In the days when my family used to keep a number of bees, the Departmental officers who visited us from time to time were most co-operative and performed their function well. They were experienced apiarists. Whenever our bee population became diminished and we wanted some honey, we used

to go into the forest on a very hot day and throw flour on bees as they took off from water. As bees always fiy in a direct line, we were able to observe the direction of their flight. discover their hive and rob its honey. There are probably more than 200 hives in various trees on my property. I do not own these hives, and I trust the levy of 50 cents a hive will not be imposed on them .. I am concerned that, as land has been cleared, the bees have entered every hollow tree in the area. I do not know what action can be taken,' but I realize that disease is bred among swarms which are at large, to the detriment of apiarists in general. Until recently, we kept about half a dozen hives on our property and kept them closely inspected, but periodically an invasion of bees would occur from hives scattered around the countryside. This problem needs full consideration in the interests of apiarists in general. In my opinion, the inspectors of the Department of Agriculture do a conscientious job.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province).-I do not wish to discuss the principles of the Bill, but I direct the attention of the House to clause 28, which contains the regulationmaking power. Such a provision is becoming familiar in our legislation, and I think this Parliament has become accustomed to seeing such clauses passed; perhaps without a sufficiently close examination being made. Clause 28 provides, inter alia, that the Governor in Council may make regulations for or with respect to-generally any matter or thing by this Act required or permitted to be prescribed or necessary or expedient to be prescribed for carrying out or giving effect to this Act.

This power conferred on the Governor in Council to make regulations is extremely wide. Perhaps he could even make regulations governing the sex life of the queen bee! I have no doubt that we shall see similar provisions in other measures, but I trust the Minister of Agriculture will

Bees [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] BiU. 1081

consider curtailing to some extent the powers which are to be exercised by means of the regulations under this legislation. I emphasize the dangers of passing over wide powers to someone outside this Parliament.



Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Repeal).

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-I wish to make a few comments and to suggest that progress be then reported. The principles of the Bill were discussed with the Apiarists Association on two occasions, but a draft of the final Bill was not forwarded to that body. Of course, it is normal practice not to do so. The comments offered by Mr. Cathie, Mr. Bradbury and Mr. May will be investigated. When legislation of this nature is concerned to some degree with disease and it is necessary for areas to be proclaimed, naturally, wide powers must be provided. As Mr. May knows, action had to be taken quickly in Gippsland in connexion with the outbreak of pleuro-pneumonia and the powers had to be exercised sensibly. I do not think anyone who has had experience of the exercise of such powers in connexion with pleuro-pneumonia and fruit-fly, for example, has found them harshly applied. I have heard nothing but praise for the manner in which the officers concerned have handled these situations.

I do not pretend to be an up-todate expert on beekeeping. I know Mr. Bradbury has closely studied the matter, because in the North-Eastern Province that he and Mr. Swinburne represent there are a large number of forests, and the area is recognized as one of the leading districts in Australia in this regard.

I do not know how we can surmount Mr. May's difficulty concerning wild bees, if I may so term them. 1 shall have the various suggestions

relating to the clauses examined before the measure is dealt with again in Committee. Probably I shall have discussions with the departmental experts, Mr. Bradbury, Mr. Cathie and any other honorable member who is interested. When the Committee again deals with the Bill, I trust that most of the matters raised will have been agreed upon by the parties concerned, so that if there is any difference of opinion remaining it can be dealt with in discussion by this Committee.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province).-I appreciate the Minister's attitude. I reiterate that my remarks on behalf of the industry were not intended to be obstructive. We appreciate that the Minister is agreeable to report progress, so that the subject-matter of the measure c·an be further investigated, in the hope that we can achieve unanimity in our views on them in this Chamber.



CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES (FINANCIAL) BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the' Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing), was read a first time.

SAN REMO LANDS BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing), was read a first time.

APPEAL COSTS FUND (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

1082 Governor's Speech: [COUNCIL.] Address-in-Reply.

GOVERNOR'S SPEECH. ADDRESS-IN -REPLY.

The debate (adjourned from October 12) on the motion of the Hon. S. E. Gleeson (South-Western Provinc.e) for the adoption of an Addressin-Reply to the Governor's Speech was resumed.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province).-The Address-inReply debate provides the opportunity, particularly to this (the Opposition) side of the House, for a wide discussion of all aspects of Government administration. It enables honorable members to point to the inadequacies that they believe exist at present. I direct attention particularly to the continuing financial muddle of the Bolte Government, which admits it is facing a situation approaching bankruptcy under the existing financial arrangements between the State and Commonwealth Governments.

To assist the Government in saving money to make proper provision for the welfare of the people in this community, I offer one' available means of economizing. I can see no reason why in this session the Government should not introduce a Bill to abolish the Legislative Council. This House serves no useful purpose because the work done here is merely a repetition of what is done in another place and, as far as I can see, this House is not even a House of review. Since I have been a member of this Council, important

. legislation has been forced through at a rapid pace, at the timing and the direction of the Government. The whole institution of Parliament needs modernizing in the light of present conditions. This House is a conservative institution, and I believe its members are failing to adjust themselves to the needs and requirements of the modern world. By perpetuating the privileges and so on connected with membership of this place, we are in fact keeping in existence a concern which has no

vital relationship to the every-day activities of a modern economic and democratic community.

If the Government were "fair dinkum" about its financial problems, and the bankruptcy into which it has got itself, at least some small saving could be achieved by abolishing the Legislative Council. Perhaps this action in itself would not save very much because any move towards its abolishment would in turn produce a move to increase the membership of the Legislative Assembly. But at least what I suggest would be a symbolic and meaningful gesture by the Government to indicate to Victorians that the Government is prepared to try to save some money for the community. Hence, I believe it is opportune once again to challenge the Government to abolish this House.

Now I wish to discuss again the crisis in education-a matter which concerns this State-and in particular to talk about the problems confronting school libraries. I was very interested in the researches which were undertaken by the Library Association of Australia into the standards and achievements of libraries for the children of this State. In a world of increasing technological change, technical changes should be introduced in the schools at an early stage. These changes should be apparent now and should not be considered as being in the future. I refer to the provision not only of adequate library facilities for pupils attending primary, secondary and tertiary institutions, but also to such things as closed-circuit television, by which means the best of teaching can be utilized, and team teaching, whereby teachers working together as a team make available their various specialties to provide a programme of planned instruction.

I also refer to such things as the programme teaching machines, which are now widely used in the United States of America and about which the United Nations Educational,

Governor's Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Addr~s-in-Reply. 1083

Scientific, and Cultural Organization, and other bodies connected with the United Nations, have had something to say. These are technical advances which must be made available in our schools to-day, not to-morrow, so that the pupils will receive now the benefits of these important technological changes which are occuring in the community.

It was disturbing to read the account by a visiting American Fulbright scholar, Professor Fenwick, of what is going on in our Government Departments in connexion with the provision of children's libraries. Such a visitor can take an objective view of us, whereas we are, perhaps, less objective because we are too close to the scene. The professor reviewed the standards we had achieved in a booklet issued by the Library Association of Australia, entitled School and Children's Libraries in Australia. In one of the main chapters, she stated of our school libraries that-

Ample evidence of this skimp in school libraries was visible.

There is a skimp in providing even a limited standard to meet the growing demands of an increasingly competitive, modern, scientific, and technological society. Perhaps this expert's researches are summed up in the following sentence:-

To characterize the majority of school libraries is to speak of a poverty of library resources. In the middle of the twentieth century, with all the demands that learning, science and humanities make upon the children who have to grow up in this increasing competitive society, we find that those children are being denied access to books which, above all, have always been the measure of an advanced civilization. Yet, in this State, as throughout the Commonwealth, all that visiting experts can say is that we have a poverty of library resources. The professor also stated-

This poverty is mainly one of lack of sufficient books and teaching resources per child, but it is also one of quality in the book collection.

I am interested to see that the Library Association of Australia has· laid down, as a minimum recommended essential expenditure on sch<:>ol libraries, a figure of $3 per pupIl per year. The actual expenditure in Victoria, so far as I can ascertain from the latest figures available, is 39 cents per pupil per year. No doubt, honorable members on the Government side of the House will continue to be complacent about this position, which indicates the extent of the crisis in education in Victoria.

Following the report of the visiting American expert, the Library Association of Australia produced a second study in which it laid down what it considered to be the standards and objectives for school libraries. In the foreword to that booklet, reference is made to-

The setting up of what should be regarded as an irreducible minimum.

In the course of setting out what the Association considered to be the standards, I noticed two things in particular: First, that within our secondary schools, both high and technical schools, we ought to be able to achieve the standard that the sc~ool librarian should be not only a tramed teacher but also a trained librarian; and, secondly, that the average high school or technical school should in the first year be able to achieve an expenditure of $4000 on its library. I have . taken ' the trouble to do what I am sure no member of the Government has done, and that is to ascertain what in fact is happening within my province. I challenge any member of the Government to deny that the information I have gained indicates the position that exists in his province.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-One cannot admit something that may not be correct.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-Honorable members can judge the position from the evidence I shall tender. I sent a circular to some 20 schools

1084 GovernO'f" s Speech: [C0UNCIL.] Address-in-Reply.

within my province requesting information on library facilities. I regret that only eight schools took the trouble to reply. That is an indication that people whom the Government has placed in responsible positions are afraid to admit the desperate position that obtains.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Your argument is completely illogical. You stated that twelve schools did not reply to your circular.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-I wish to quote some of the replies I received. It will be recalled that I referred earlier to two irreducible minimum standards-I could have taken a number of others. However, I took the most important. The first standard was that the person in charge of the library should be a trained librarian and also a trained teacher. The second was the ability to spend approximately $4,000 in the first year of operation of the library. The reply I received from a high school attended by some 900 pupils was that the school librarian has received some teacher training but very little library training. The maximum spent in any year on the library was $2,200. That is nowhere near the amount quoted by the Library Association of Australia as being the irreducible minimum.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Many of the schools to which you sent circulars apparently did not take the trouble to reply.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-That is true, and I have already stated the reason for that. It is because the Government of which Mr. Thom is a member has terrorized many people into accepting what are second-rate institutions.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Are you on any school advisory councils?

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-I have been a formation member and secretary of a school committee for six years, so it cannot be said that I do not know what I am talking about.

Mr. Thorn should move around his electorate and find out a few facts for himself. Another reply that I received indicates that at a technical school in my electorate the librarian had some training as a librarian but his only teacher training was some special training with regard to a health course. He had received no conventional teacher training. I am not sure what standard that was, but I suspect the worst. At that school, an amount of only $1,200 was spent as compared with the irreducible minimum standard of $4,000 a year.

At another high school of 900 pupils, the librarian had some training both as a teacher and as a librarian, but only at a part-time course run by the Education Department for a period of twelve months. Honorable members may be interested to know that the accepted minimum standard for training as a librarian in Victoria is a full-time two-year course at t~e Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology. It is not surprising that at this high school a meagre sum of only $600 annually is expended on the library. Another high school, which is in its first year of operation, has no library, and an expenditure of only $280 has been made on school books for this year.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-Mr. Thorn is not listening.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-No, because he knows that my accusations are based on facts, and he is not prepared to ascertain the facts for himself.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-You run away from the facts when I ask questions.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-On this particular question, the people of Victoria will judge the issue as between Mr. Thorn and myself. I should like to know whether Mr. Thorn is satisfied with the conditions of libraries at the schools within his province.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Yes, I am.

Governor's Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-1:n-Reply. 1085

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-The honorable member must be prepared to accept a second-class standard of education in his area. The librarian of a girls' school took the trouble to write to me about the conditions that exist in one secondary school. She said-

I have some qualifications as a librarian . . . but no university education and no teacher training. Further, I work only four days a week.

At . this particular school, the library is not staffed full-time! She goes on to say-

However the value of our library stock is to some extent nullified by the hopelessly inadequate accommodation both for books and for students.

Another high school with an enrolment of 986 pupils has no trained librarian. The only teacher training of the person who is responsible for the running of the library is in needlework; she has a diploma of needlework. I cannot relate the academic distinction of gaining a diploma of needlework with the very important work of a skilled and trained librarian. I should add that in most of the cases I have cited the librarian has had no assistance in running the library and no clerical assistance, apart from that given by the pupils. In another high school with more than 1,000 pupils, the person in charge of the library has had no library training and no teacher training. Moreover, no assistance is provided to help her in the fulfilment of her important task.

I do not wish to criticize the very important role and the excellent work that some of these people are doing under almost impossible conditions. I am simply explaining to the House how far we fall short of what the Library Association of Australia considers to be the irreducible minimum. Yet honorable members on the Government side of the Chamber, in typically arrogant and complacent fashion, simply say that everything is right in this best of all worlds, and that there is no crisis in education.

We cannot afford to take such a complacent attitude in this modern and scientific world.

I am sure that I have given sufficient evidence to reveal the conditions that obtain within the libraries of our secondary schools. These matters should be of great concern to the community, and I hope that some member of the Government will begin to take an interest in this vital matter. During my two years as a member of this House, I have not noticed any such interest.

I now wish to refer to another matter in relation to the Education Department that has been causing some concern. I accept the fact that honorable members hold differing views on such important and vital questions as Vietnam and foreign affairs, but I think all honorable members will agree that our schools are not suitable places to engage in a discussion on vital issues relating to Vietnam and defence. Yet from answers to questions that have been asked in the Senate by Senator S. H. Cohen, Q.C., I find that five copies of a Government pamphlet under the authority of the Minister for External Affairs have been sent to the head masters of all secondary schools within the Commonwealth. I find, further-and I think this is far worse -that a School Paper sent out for twelve-year-olds contains an article that develops the Liberal Party Government's case so far as Vietnam is concerned. In that article, there is no acknowledgment of the fact that there are other points of view on this particular problem, or that it concerns a serious political discussion within the community. As Mr. Elliot suggests, that is a grave departure from the old standards of liberalism.

Even worse than the two cases to which I have referred is a paper that apparently has the full support of the Education Department because it has been placed in the libraries of schools that come under the control


of the Department. On the front page of that paper appears the following sentence about Vietnam:-

Many lives are being lost every day through this struggle, in which the communist invaders from North Vietnam and China are trying to take over South Vietnam.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-What is wrong with that?

The Han.!. R. CATHIE.-It must be admitted that no one has been able to produce evidence of Chinese soldiers being involved in Vietnam. I challenge Mr. Nicol to refute that statement.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! The honorable member is in order in criticizing a State Department. But it would be quite improper for the merits or demerits of the Vietnam question to be debated in this House. 1 shall allow Mr. Cathie to make the point, but I do not want a discussion along those lines.

The Hon. 1. R. CA THIE.-I fully accept your ruling, Mr. President. This is not an issue that should be debated by twelve-year-old pupils with the official sanction of the Education Department. Furthermore, ~hocking inaccuracies of fact appear in the articles which are being put out for use in schools. I am not concerned to debate the fundamental issues involved in foreign affairs because they are not relevant in this House.

In case Mr. Nichol, who is interjecting, feels I am putting forward the sectional view, I propose to quote from the leading article of a national newspaper which it has never been suggested supports the Australian Labor Party. The heading of the article in question, which appeared on 11 th August last, is, "Brainwashing in the schools". It refers to some of the evidence that I have submitted to the House to-night. Amongst other things, the article states-

There are many aspects of our education system that are alarming; but none is more alarming than this attempt to state as a

fact to children as young as this a proposition that is at the very centre of the debate on Australian foreign policy.

Whether or not this proposition is right or wrong-

I hope even Mr. Nicol agrees with this sentence-is irrelevant; it is still only a proposition and it should neither be dressed up as a dogma nor presented as such to children who are not yet of an age to know any better.

I completely concur in those sentiments. I propose to cite an illustration to emphasize the crisis that has hit our educational system and the inadequacies that exist within the educational field. Within the boundaries of my province, on one side of the South Gippsland Highway, is located the Cranbourne racecourse. Recently, many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent to improve the facilities available to punters and in building a new grandstand at this racecourse. In Australia, we seem to have no difficulty in providing funds for this type of activity.

However, on the other side of the highway, directly opposite to these magnificent amentities which are available to the racing community, is the Cranbourne State School. This school was originally built in 1870. Between 1870 and 1928, various additions were made to the school. In 1928, an attached residence was vacated and, finally, it. was divided into two classrooms. Recently, on inspecting the school, I found that one of the classrooms which was provided in the old attached residence is only 9 ft. 6 in. at its greatest width. It is poorly lit and poorly ventilated, and I could have knocked out any number of bricks. My estimate of the width of this class-room is very generous because, within the room, there are various protruding structures which could not be taken away as they are part of the structure of the whole building.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.-Did you not know that 39 per cent. of the general Budget expenditure and 27!

Governor's Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. 1087

per cent. of the estimated works expenditure from the Loan Fund is being allocated to education?

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-The Minister's interjection is typical of the Government's complacency. Whenever members of my party produce concrete examples of what is wrong with education, Government members quote some hypothetical figure in order to excuse the Government's inefficiency. I do not propose to deal with the financial aspect of the State's economy-Mr. Tripovich will deal fully with this at a later stage of the debate. More than 20 children are being taught in this small classroom that is only 9 ft. 6 in. wide.

The two structures that I referred to, situated on either side of the Gippsland Highway, illustrate the lack of planning and lack of direction which exists in the economy as a result of Liberal Party Governments, in both the State and the Federal spheres. When the Assistant Minister of Edur.ation inspected the Cranbourne State School two years ago, he promised that a new school would be provided. The local people are still waiting for this new school. The latest proposal that the honorable gentleman has made to the school committee is that a couple more portable class-rooms should be provided.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Shortly he will ask them to reduce the number of children at the school, as he has done at Flemington.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-I am grateful for my colleague's interjection concerning the Minister's attitude in other areas of the State; no doubt the honorable gentleman will adopt the same attitude in my province also. It is all very well for the Assistant Minister of Education to say that a new school cannot be provided-it cannot be supplied because his Government has made such a hopeless mess of educationand that portable class-rooms will be made available. The school occupies

a site consisting of only 1 acre of land, hence I do not know where portable class-rooms could be placed.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.-Tell us about the 140 new high schools that have been provided by the Government.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-Where are all these new high schools?

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-What has been done in the western suburbs in this regard?

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! Mr. Cathie is entitled to make his speech in his own way, and I am sure he will do much better without the help of Government members or some of his own colleagues.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-A series of questions asked by me in this Chamber recently have fully highlighted my views concerning the provision of new high schools by the Government. In reply to questions concerning a new high school at Carrum, I was informed that a site has not even been secured, although the school is due to be opened next year. There is no need for me to proceed further concerning the Government's sorry record in the construction of new schools. Can the Minister of Housing give one illustration of a high school that has been built on its own site with adequate buildings which conform to the plans for secondary schools in this State? I am sure the honorable gentleman could not do so.

I shall now deal with the crisis in our' hospitals and the failure of the Liberal party to provide adequately for the important needs of the people in this State, particularly in relation to health. I was interested to check back through files relating to the Dandenong hospital. In the Herald of the 24th June, 1964, there appeared a leading article praising the great contribution and achievements of the Bolte Government.

1088 Governor's Speech: (COUNCIL.] Address-in-Reply.

The article included the following sentence:-

The Dandenong hospital has been extended to full base size.

This hospital, which in 1964 was to become a full base hospital, is receiving £125,000 per annum from the Government, and yet it is costing at least £622,000 to construct part of the new extensions to the hospital, simply to cater for 40 extra beds.

The present rate of expenditure on the hospital enables only a skeleton hospital service to be provided. If the present standards of achievement under this Government are maintained, it will not become a base hospital for at least another fifteen years. At present, the hospital has 97 beds and 30 beds at Springvale for a daily average of 85 patients. There are no public maternity wards, which means that at least 300 women a year must travel to Melbourne-a distance of about 21 miles-for confinements, simply because maternity facilities are not available at the hospital. Last year, there was a record number of births in the area. Of the patients who attend the hospital, 40 oer cent. r.ome from Dandenong, 15 per cent. from Doveton and 22 per cent. from Springvale. The combined population of these three districts is about 70,000 inhabitants.

On the accepted basis of four beds per 1,000 of popUlation, there should be at least 280 beds available at present to meet the needs of the district. In other words, there is a shortage of 153 beds. Yet, during the ] 964 election campaign, pUblicity was given to the great achievements of the Bolte Government in turning this hospital into a full base hospital. There has been rapid expansion in the district, and I empasize to the Minister of Health the urgent need to make available more beds so that hospital facilities in the Dandenong area will be adequate.

Finally, I wish to refer to the question of soil erosion, which is threatening the tip of the Mornington Peninsula. I do not wish to canvass

The Hon. I. R. Cathie.

the details of this erosion during this debate, because the relevant information is set out in the reports of the Soil Conservation Authority. In answer to a question asked by me on 27th September, I was informed that no conferences have been held between the State and Commonwealth relating to this matter, and that the present Government does not intend to seek Commonwealth co-operation in this regard, although the Army controls this strip of land. This is an important question, which should not be brushed aside so lightly. Once again, I urge the Government to reconsider its decision. The financial resources of the Soil Conservation Authority are limited and hardly adequate to deal with such problems as those which have been encountered at the very tip of what has been called the playground for the . whole of Melbourne-this is a reasonable description of the Mornington Peninsula.

I have purported to set out to the best of my ability only a few illustrations of the Government's inadequacies, shortcomings and inc om pentence. What is needed in the Commonwealth to-day is a co-operative Government, which consists of a partnership between the State Government and the Commonwealth Government, which holds the powerful purse-strings and is thereby able to decide what moneys shall be available for various purposes. In the perIod of Liberal Party Governments, all we have received is backbiting, bludgeoning and fighting, and we have witnessed the sorry spectacle of the Liberal Premier of this State challenging the Liberal Prime Minister of the Commonwealth to a public debate on the dreadful mess which is evident so far as the nation's finances are concerned.

In the following weeks, we shall see how far Federal Liberal Party Governments are prepared to go to provide the necessary framework for a strong Government, an expanding economy and proper stability. Having

Governor's Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. 1089

regard to present Liberal Party thinking, the future for both the States and the Commonwealth is not bright. It is no use saying that there will be a continual fight between the States and the Commonwealth when education, health, roads, public transport and national development are being neglected.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Don't you believe in abolishing State Governments?

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-If Mr. Thompson is seeking my opinion concerning the ultimate development and proper functioning of government in the community, I would say my preference is very much for a strong central Government and a strong local Government. At the moment I do not believe we have this or anything like it. I shall always support such a structure of Government, and in the long term I prefer to see the State Governments whittled away and replaced by strong regional Governments. Government members should hope for something better than the matching grants between the Commonwealth and the State Governments for tertiary education. The inadequacies of this Government are all too obvious. I only regret that Government members have not the absolute honesty to rise and say, "This Government has placed Victoria· in a mess and we have to do something to get out of it ". The only solution is a change of Government.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-1 associate myself with the motion before the House expressing our loyalty to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. In presenting his address at the official opening of Parliament the Governor enumerated details of the administrative activities which have been carried out by the Government. He also referred to the Parliament a long list of legislative proposals, some of which have already come before us. In reading through His Excellency's Speech, which covered to some extent the

administration of the State and to some extent the legislative proposals, I ponder upon our function in the past. There is little doubt that certainly in this country and in the United Kingdom, and probably in some other of the Western countries, there is a growing feeling of doubt as to whether our Parliaments are functioning to their fullest efficiency. These doubts are becoming more and more widely expressed. Perhaps this is not an inopportune occasion on which we should briefly examine ourselves to determine whether we· are properly fulfilling the functions of Parliament, and in particular the functions of this House.

One of the undoubted anxieties of many people within this House and putside it is the diminishing authority which is being exercised bY' Parliament. I stress the word " exercised". Many people say that the power and the authority of Parliament is diminishing, but I do not believe that to be so. Parliament has all the authority and the power that it ever had, but there is a lack of will on the part of Parliamentarians to exercise to the full the authority of the Parliament, and this is leading people into this line of thinking.

It is evident- and I have directed attention to this on more than one occasion-that there is not a growing tendency but a growing disinclination on the part of Parliament to resist the passing of the authority of Parliament to organizations and persons outside it. I have had occasion, as have other members, to direct attention to this matter, and I trust we shall continue to do so. This is usually done by the regulation-m~king powers in various Bills presented to Parliament. I understand that, at one stage while he was holding another portfolio, the Minister for Local Government instructed the Parliamentary Draftsman to prepare and establish, for regular usage in legislation, a standardized clause giving regulationmaking powers which would not


throw the door wide open, as so many of these clauses do, but which would restrict the authority of the individuals to making only such regulations as Parliament specifically prescribed. I hope that the proposal of the Minister will again be examined and generally adopted.

Apart from the lack of inclination available to Parliament carefully to scrutinize these processes and, if necessary, to put a stop to them, it is sometimes not unfair to wonder whether our time is devoted in the best possible manner to certain matters and to a closer examination of other matters which should be vital to the conduct of the State. I refer to the control of administration generally and to whether or not it is in the hands of the Government, the Departments, or any individual or organization. Is sufficient time devoted to a full and proper scrutiny of our administration system and the way in which it is functioning?

Is Parliament giving sufficient consideration to the rights and duties of the means of mass communication. The press, radio and television have a tremendous impact on people. I do not suggest that they deliberately misuse their powers, but I sometimes wonder whether the discretion which should be exercised in reports which from time to time appear in the various media is exercised as tightly as it should be, and whether we do not almost deify this principle of freedom of the press and other means of communication. Far be it from me to decry the press.

The Hon. J. M. l'RIPoVlcH.-There is a difference between freedom and licence.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-That may well be so. There should be an examination of this matter from time to time and discussions between the various parties should be held. I also wonder whether we insist on too much unnecessary secrecy in the operations of Government. With few

exceptions, the functioning of government, the Departments and the instrumentalities should be more open to the public gaze. It is part of our duty to discuss these matters and to bring them to public notice. Do we give sufficient attention to the machinery that exists for the redress of grievances and administrative faults? At present the Statute Law Revision Committee is considering the matter of appeals tribunals, and I trust that it will not be long before that committee will produce a report. Do we give adequate consideration to these matters? We should also examine our committee system to ensure that it is used sufficiently. Are there sufficient and adequate committees?

Sir PERCY BYRNEs.-The committees should be larger.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-I am not so sure about that.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-There are committees of the House of Commons consisting of 60, 70 or 100 members.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-There are many committees of the House of Commons that examine legislation and report to the House.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-The transport committee would comprise 60 or 70 members.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-The number of members in the House of Commons is much greater than the number in this Parliament. I am not referring so much to the numbers on those committees, but more to their usage.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-The Transport Bill was thoroughly examined by the transport committee and it did not go to the House of Commons.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-That is so. The committees of this Parliament function well. They have done~ are doing and will continue to do excellent work. There are many wider fields rather than specific matters in which greater use could be

Governor's Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. .1091

made of the committee system. Co"mmittees could cover broad fields with considerable freedom in relation to the particular matter into which they are inquiring.

Sir PERCY BYRNEs.-In the House of Commons, Scottish members form a committee for the Scots. Perhaps members for the Mallee could form a committee for the Mallee people.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-I am sorry that this note of light parochialism has introduced itself into the debate. These suggestions have been exercising my mind for some time, and I put them forward in the hope that honorable members may think there is some value in them. I do not think this can be really be determined until other Parliamentarians, too, have thought of these matters and discussed them. I hope that I may have stirred a spark which will result in some thought in the House and, at some stage, may lead to further action directed to the more efficient and effective functioning of the Parliament.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 associate my constituents in Douta Galla and myself with the message of loyalty to Her Most Gracious Majesty, our Queen. Even in these days of controversy, I believe that the preponderance of the constituents of Doutta Galla would endorse those sentiments. I also express appreciation of the efforts of the Governor, Sir Rohan Delacombe. I would suggest that his humanity and his simplicity-if one may use the word as a term of endearment-have captured the hearts and minds of the people of Victoria. The gesture which he made last week when, without prior announcement of his coming, he visited the State school at Jacana and met the head master, teachers, and pupils was appreciated throughout the whole of my electorate. It is gestures such as that which make people who gather in any place, whether it be a school or a factory,

know that there is always a chance that the Governor may drop in. The Governor has had the same attitude since he first came here, and on behalf of my constitutents I offer him very sincere thanks.

The speech which the Governor read to Parliament was, of course, prepared for him by the Government, that being the Government's prerogative. The Speech made four points which I should like to examine in what is, I hope, a constructive manner. In these cases, I do not believe the picture painted by the Governor's words is in accord with the actual facts as they show up under close examination.

The first controversial point concerned the unsatisfactory state of the financial relationship between the State and the Commonwealth. There were assurances by the Premier, through the Governor's Speech, that further discussion would take place in order to secure a long-term situation. The present Government, which replaced a Labor Government in 1955, commenced a policy of deficit budgeting with a deficit of £13,000,000 in its first year of office. One has since become accustomed to the challenges of the Premier that to do otherwise would be to cut down on this, cut down on that, and cut down on the other. I suggest that if my wife adopted the same philosophy in maintaining my home I would have the strongest objections, because I do not want to see my finances in the condition of those of this State.

Sir PERCY BYRNEs.-Your objections would probably have the same results.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I probably would achieve the same results, but I would not call it good budgeting. The Government adopted a policy of deficit budgeting and great expansion. If I understand the arguments of the Federal Liberal Party, the greatest difference it has with the Victorian Premier and Cabinet is that the State demands the right to

1092 Govern01" s Speech: [COUNCIL.] Addf'e8s-in-Reply.

live beyond its means. In 1957, the Budget displayed the same attitude as the Government takes to-day on Commonwealth-State financial relations. The Government then raised a great smoke-screen about not being properly treated by the Commonwealth and so on, and went so far as to arrange a conference of the Liberal Party at Cowes.

Politics in Australia are conducted on a party basis and I subscribe wholeheartedly to the party system. That system puts honorable members in this place, and it gives them the responsibility of carrying out what the supporters of the respective party demand in relation to their needs and requirements and the society they want. It fixes on us the obligation to support the policies which our parties determine. It also fixes on us certain advantages in relation to the places we go, the positions we hold, perhaps the salaries we receive, and so on. To me, the party system is a co-operative system and a good system. It allows for argument within a party itself and for decisions to be made on what policy the majority want. Then it should-and I use the word "should" advisedly-fix on a party in power the obligation to put its policy into operation.

The Australian system of government has three tiers-those of Federal government, State government, and local government. We of the Labor Party have accepted-and I think the Liberal Party has accepted -that the State and Federal parties argue out and fix a Federal policy which is in agreement with the views of the majority of the members of the party. I have before me a copy of The Official Federal Platform of the Liberal Party of Australia. The platform was approved by the Federal Council of the Liberal Party on 15th November, 1960. As I read it, honorable members on the Government benches can tell me if it is out-dated.

The Hon. B. D. SNIDER.-Your reading has improved.

The Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

.. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Perhaps Mr. Snider may not share my observations, even if he enjoys what I read. On page 5 of this document, under the heading, "Economic and Financial", what I take to be the 28th item of policy reads-

Use of central banking, budge try and fiscal policy to maintain a high level of employment and stability of the currency. to avoid inflationary and deflationary conditions, and to promote rapid development of the nation.

The Labor Party has a very similar policy, although framed in different words. It places emphasis on the Federal Treasury, expecting it more or less to set the pace in relation to what I believe are desirable objectives.

I heard in the opening week of this session a lucid statement by Mr. Hunt on how the Commonwealth robs the State. I agree to a great extent with his argument on the actual implementing of policy, which is not carried out in the terms written into the Liberal Party platform, or into the platform of my own party. I believe there is an obligation on a party to resolve its problems at its own conferences. Mr. McMahon, the Federal Treasurer, advised the Premier that he did not want a public confrontation with him and that he believed that differences could be resolved within conferences. In 1957, the Cowes Liberal Party conference was held. Since then there has been continued argument at allegedly public conferences between the State and Federal sections of the Liberal Party about Commonwealth-State agreements. Why should this House have to go all over this again; this matter should have been resolved within the Liberal Party years ago, or is their some obstacle to its settlement? On the 9th September, 1965, Mr. Herschel Hurst, the Canberra roundsman of the Sun News-Pictorial newspaper, in reporting the rejection of conscription by the Federal Council of the Liberal Party, said-

The council can on1y make recommendations to the Government which can accept or reject them.

Governor's Speech,: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] A.ddress-in-Reply. 1093

Therefore, all this talk of co-called conflict between the State and Federal sections of the Liberal Party amounts to nothing. The Prime Minister and his Cabinet are quite paramount, and so the State Premiers and the ordinary rank and file members of the Liberal Party can be ignored.

The comment which I am about to read is pertinent to the smoke screen put up by the Liberal Premier of this State about demanding greater financial compensation from the Federal Government and what he will do about it. I always find that he goes to Canberra like a roaring bull and departs like a lame lamb. The Age correspondent put the position a little more forthrightly and a little more brutally than Mr. Hurst when, on the 9th August, 1965, he wrote-

The Liberal Party Federal Council is now more vulnerable than the Labor Party Federal Conference to a charge of excessive secrecy. However, the fact that Liberal Party Federal councellors are faceless may not matter much, because in policy making they are virtually powerless. Sir Robert Menzies and a handful of Ministers make the main policy decisions in the secrecy of the Cabinet room. The prolonged, painful and public efforts of the Labor Party to formulate a policy on State aid for church schools contrast starkly with Sir Robert Menzies' snap decision in 1963 to woo Roman Catholic votes with the offer of money for science teaching facilities. Few Liberals knew of this decision until Sir Robert disclosed it in his policy speech.

I place that statement on record in order to say to the Premier, to Mr. Hunt, who spent some time informing us on this problem of Commonwealth-State relationships, and to other honorable members on the Government benches, "Do not try to convince us that you are not getting a fair go; go and convince your own mob and alter your rules to make sure that the rank and file decisions of the Liberal Party count for something with a Liberal Party Government" .

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-They do with this Government; you need not worry about that.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I hope that I do not say this truculently, but I recall stating to this House the date of the resolution carried by the State branch of the Liberal Party-by, I think, 128 votes to ll9-that the decisions of the State Liberal Party conference should not be binding on the political party. The resolution was very similar to that carried by the Liberal Party in the Federal sphere. The Liberal Party State conferences and Federal council meetings are merely safety valves. Their members may get together and grizzle and growl and pass resolutions, but they mean nothing in relation to the administration of the State.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-That shows how little you understand the Liberal Party functions.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I have read the resolution and given the number of votes, and I do not think anybody could place a different interpretation on them than I have just done.

The Governor also mentioned the discovery of natural gas in proximity to the Victorian coastline. This is a marvellous event for Victoria and for Australia. I do not wish to labour this point but merely to express, on my own beh~lf and, I believe, on behalf of the electors whom I represent, the hope that the Government will retain control of natural gas for the benefit of the people and will not allow it to be exploited by private enterprise in a manner that may not help this State in the ultimate.

I now wish to make some comments on what has been claimed to be "the great leap forward" in education. The Premier has said, "If you are not for education, you are not for this Budget." This statement was a smoke-screen to hide the 3 per cent. tax on the turnover of the State Electricity Commission and the Gas and Fuel Corporation and also the $8,000,000 deficit in the last

1094 Governor's'Speech " [COUNCIL.] Address-in-Reply.

Budget. The Minister of Housing corrected me recently when I mentioned the amount expended on education. The Minister said that the Government has allocated for education the sum of $210,000,000 or 39 per cent. of the current Budget. I direct the Minister's attention to the fact that $15,192,030 of that $210,000,000 is being used for debt charges; it will not build one school, pay one teacher or buy one pencil. Therefore, the real amount to be expended on education is shown on page 52 of the Budget Papers in which the expenditure on this item is shown each year from 1936-37 to the estimated total for 1966-67.

I propose to use those figures to examine the Government's claim to the cc great leap forward" in education. Before I do so, I wish to point out that at page 50 of the Budget Papers the estimated population for Victoria as at the 30th June, 1952, is shown as 2,344,491, and for this year the estimated population is shown as 3,282,000. These figures should be borne in mind, plus the fact that the majority of the population, like those of all Western democracies, is under the age of 25 years. I also wish to use the figures which the Minister was kind enough to furnish in reply to a question which I asked in this House last week in relation to the numbers of children attending primary and secondary schools. I shal1 attempt to paint a picture of the Government's efforts in the field of education which it claims as a great leap forward and as the reason for imposing the 3 per cent. tax on the State Electricity Commission and the Gas and Fuel Corporation.

The total number of children attending schools in 1962 was 456,619. I do not wish to go back too far, but in fairness to the Government I think I should make a comparison over four years. In 1963 the total number of children attending State schools wa~ 469,816, an increase of 13,197, or a growth


rate of a little under 3 per cent. The total amount expended on education that· year, as per page 52 of the Budget Papers, was $145,000,000 less $13,000,000 for university grants, leaving a total of $132,000,000. Using that as the base year, I quote now the figures relating to 1964, when the total number of children attending State schools was 487,192, an increase of 17,376, or a growth rate of 3.7 per cent. The total amount made available for education that year, not including debt charges or university grants, was $143,000,000, an increase of $11,000,000 or 8.3 per cent., but of that $11,000,000, the sum of $10,000,000 was for additional salary payments to teachers.

In 1965 the number of children attending State schools was 504,120, an increase of 16,928 or a growth rate of 3.3 per cent.-a little less than the year before. The amount made available, as stated at page 52 of the Budget Papers, was $158,000,000, an increase of $15,000,000 or a growth rate of 10.5 per cent. Of that amount additional salaries for teachers absorbed $7,600,000, which means in effect an additional $7,400,000 for education compared with the previous year.

Now, I come to the cc great leap forward ". There is now an estimated total of 523,600 children attending State schools, an increase of 19,480, or a growth rate of 3.8 per cent.the highest ever, so that a great leap forward is necessary. The net allocation for primary and secondary education is $174,000,000, an increase of $16,000,000 over last year. Of that sum a total of $9,000,000 is absorbed in salary increases, which means that the additional allocation for education is not $7,400,000, as it was last year, but approximately $7,000,000. Where is the great leap forward?

I now wish to make a comparison with 1952. In that year, the number of children attending primary schools

Governor's Speeph: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. 1095

was 210,544. In 1966 the number is 337,800, an increase of 127,256, or 60 per cent. In 1952 there were 1,927 State schools in Victoria, and in 1966 there are 1,928. This position is due to the fact that many small country schools have been closed and others built in developing areas. In addition, schools have been combined and the consolidation scheme was established. In Doutta Galla Province there are 78 schools and another 34 schools on the perimeter take children who live within the province.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.Where is the consolidation of country schools taking place to-day?

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.Since 1952 a consolidated school has been provided at Murrayville.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Not one consolidated school has been provided in the past ten years.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I do not think much has been done in this connexion since this Government assumed office, but some consolidated schools were established prior to 1955.

I turn now to a consideration of secondary schools. Not only has the population grown considerably, but it has grown considerably younger, so to speak. The increase in school populations is due to the better conditions enjoyed by people generally-full employment, and, in many cases, with both· parents working. It is now possible for even working-class people to give their children a good education. I pay tribute to those persons who have been able to keep their children at school. Further, children are now remaining at school for a much longer period than they were previously. In 1952 there were 57,037 secondary school pupils, and in 1966 there are 185,800 pupils attending secondary schools, including technical schools, Forms I. to V. This increase represents a growth of 229 per cent. compared with the base figure of 1952, or a net increase of 128,763 pupils. The number of

teachers employed has grown from 9,758 in 1952 to 24,479 to-day, an increase of approximately 150 per cent.

I now wish to· examine the record of the Government in relation to the number of new schools constructed. In 1952 there were 171 secondary schools in Victoria, and to-day there are 335-not an increase of 200 per cent. Where is this great leap forward which the Government claims it has made in education? I do not wish to deny that the Government has had to make some sacrifices for education, but so did its predecessors and many other governments. So this Government has no monopoly so far as its difficulties in this field are concerned. Its forward planning has been done by its departmental officers most efficiently, honestly and sincerely, with the exception of land purchases, which I must exclude in view of the inquiry that is being conducted at present.

I shall now examine the Government's record in relation to the number of secondary schools constructed. In 1952 there were 171 secondary schools in Victoria. In 1953, nine additional schools were provided; in 1954, eleven; in 1955, seven; in 1956, eleven; in 1957, thirteen; in 1958, eleven; and in 1959 -when a great influx of pupils from primary schools entered secondary schools, and pupils were jammed into school halls and other temporary accommodation-22 additional schools were opened. In 1961, 24 extra schools were opened, and a similar number in 1962. But what has happened since that year? I am not quoting my figures but those of the Minister, so it cannot be claimed that they have been jumbled. In 1962 the total number of secondary schools in Victoria was 303; in 1963 it was 313; in 1964, 319; in 1965, 325; and the 1966 figure is 335, an increase of ten compared with last year. Where is this great leap forward and this sacrifice by the Bolte


Government to improve education facilities? The full cycle has now been completed in regard to enrolments and the figures from 1952 to 1966 show that there has been an increase of 127,256 in primary schools, and 128,763 in secondary schools. It will be noted that the figures are about the same. Has the Government an answer to this argument. The figures I have quoted were obtained from the Budget Papers and from the Minister of Education.

Does the Government give approval for teachers to take part-time jobs outside the Education Department? I ask that question because of an advertisement which appeared in The Sentinel of Wednesday, 31st August, 1966, a paper circulating in the Brunswick area. It reads-

TEACHERS AND EX-TEACHERS.

If you desire to render an important Educational Service in your own neighbourhood, you may qualify for part-time or full-time (during· September holidays) stimulating work with excellent remuneration.

We are a highly reputable internationally known organization offering opportunities for rapid advancement for full-time people.

These positions will be subject to approval by the Educational Authority.

Appointments for a preliminary interview may be made by telephoning your District Manager:

Mr. D. Joyce, Field Enterprises Pty. Ltd. 15 Queens-road, Melbourne.

I do not know who conducts this organization, but if the Government is co-operating with it and giving approval to the type of teachers employed by Field Enterprises, I shall be surprised.

I am more than a little concerned about the housing position. In reply to a question I asked in this House yesterday concerning the sale of houses under purchase-lease agreements the Minister of Housing stated-In the remaining 57 per cent. of the cases

I understand that that figure applies to the number of people who made


applications for houses purchase-lease conditions-

under

the Commission considered that the applicants could not fund the payments involved from the incomes they were receiving at the time.

Of the applicants, apparently 43 per cent. could afford to pay a deposit, but 57 per cent. were rejected because they could not afford to fund the loan.

. Under section 16 of the Home Finance Act it is possible for loans up to 95 per cent. of the capital value of the house to be granted. I was rather interested in that provision and I examined the figures some time ago and showed the Minister that the lending authorities were not interested in this type of borrowing, because they are not interested in this type of people-but we are.

There were only three organizations involved, the Australia & New Zealand Savings Bank Ltd. which made four applications, of which three were approved by the Home Finance Trust and totalled $9,400; the Ballarat Savings and Loan Society, which made four applications, of which three were approved and totalled $5,304; and the biggest user of the guarantee, the Wimmera Permanent Building Society, which made eleven applications, totalling $14,142, all of which were approved. So, in all, a mere nineteen applications involving $26,000 were approved last year.

If a person cannot afford to service his borrowing and cannot get money under section 16 of the Home Finance Act, then the only possibility of his obtaining a home is to rent one through the Housing Commission. However, the number of homes for rental constructed by the Commission has shown a continued decline. On 4th October, I asked the Minister how many previously rented Housing Commission homes of two and three bedrooms were sold during the period 1st July, 1965. to 30th June, 1966, to occupiers· and tenants and I was

Governor's Speech.. [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. 1097

informed that the total was 1,253. I also asked how many of these homes were situated outside a radius of 30 miles from the Melbourne General Post Office, and I was told that the number was 481. That means that there were 772 in the metropolitan area. My definition of country area differs from that adopted by the Minister; I do not regard houses constructed at Doveton and Frankston as being country homes. I also asked how many homes or flats had been completed and made available for rental and the reply indicated that the numbers were 472 homes and 893 flats. After I had obtained these answers I realized that I might have let the Minister" off the hook ", so to speak, and allowed him to include in the figures other buildings such as single-unit dwellings and homes for old people. So, yesterday, I asked how many of these homes were three-bedroom units, and I was informed that the relevant number was 867. So, in fact, the Commission has sold 1,253 homes that were formerly rented, and has replaced them by 867 homes for rental. In my opinion this indicates that the Housing Commission is not fulfilling the purpose for which it was established, namely, to provide homes for people who cannot afford to buy them. The 57 per cent. to which I have previously referred would be included in this group. If this state of affairs continues the stage will eventually be reached when the Commission will have no homes for rental, and it will merely be a home-selling authority.

Despite the growth which has occurred at Ballarat, to which Mr. Murray Byrne has made reference, the development in Bendigo, to which Mr. Granter and Mr. Grigg frequently refer, and the position at Geelong in which Mr. Thorn and Mr. Gleeson are interested, it is a fact that not one house for rental was built by the Housing Commission in Ballarat last year. I presume that Mr. Murray Byrne will not say that there are fewer people in Ballarat and there is no need for houses for rental.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-Many houses were built.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Yes, but not one was available for rental. In Bendigo the number built for rental was four, and in Geelong three.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The new houses are reserved for sale and the vacated ones are re-allocated to tenants.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I have heard that argument before. The Minister is interested in building homes and selling them. He invariably says, "If I can get a deposit of $2 I will sell a house." I do not think the Housing Commission is fulfilling its role in society when it acts in that manner. However, as I have done on previous occasions, I invite the Minister to make a statement concerning housing because the basis of our society depends on the community being reasonably well housed. The Government has a responsibility to the people in that regard, but it is not carrying out its duty. Year after year I have pointed this out to the Government, but nothing happens.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The Commission is selling approximately 50 per cent. of its units. What percentage would you sell?

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-The responsibility of the Commission is to provide subsidized homes for the lower-income group.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON .-If they want to purchase a house, why not let them?

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That is fair enough, and provision is made for that by the co-operative housing societies scheme. There was a stage when previous Governments-the Country Party Administration was one-insisted that the Housing Commission build only houses for rental because of the urgent needs of the community. It is all very well for the Government to talk about slum reclamation and of what it is doing in

1098 GovernO'r's Speech: [COUNCIL.] Address-in-Reply.

that regard, but in my province I could show the Minister houses in which there are families living in one room. When the honorable gentleman says that the names of about only 13,000 people are on the waiting list for Housing Commission homes, I am forced to disagree with him because, if he gave some encouragement to applicants by providing homes, the number on the waiting list would increase by 200 per cent. Many people do not apply to the Commission because they know the position is hopeless.

A constituent of mine raised a matter which I wish to direct to the attention of the Minister in charge of the House. It has caused me great concern, and I am sure it will cause the Minister some concern, but I do not know what can be done about it. In his letter my constituent stated-

Re K. Greene Roofing Contractor of 17 Ranfurlie-grove, Glen Iris re repairs to the roof of my home . . . .

The repairs which Greene has supposed to have completed are no better than when he started on the job and the roof is still leaking.

On taking up with Greene by telephone which is answered by a woman and Greene refuses to speak to anyone and although he had guaranteed the work all efforts to get him to carry out his guarantee have failed.

The amount charged was £47 105. and when payment was made he did not want to give a receipt as he did not want to show the amount in his earnings so that he would not have to pay tax on same.

The only receipt held by me is on an invoice No. 159 which does not show any amount.

If required the invoice can be forwarded for your inspection.

I cannot afford to employ another Roofing Contractor to have Greene's faulty work repaired.

I do not wish to comment on the particular Mr. Greene, but there is a great deal of this type of thing occurring. Previously I referred to similar circumstances in connexion with a plumbing contractor and some improvement resulted. I sincerely hope that the Government will


examine this problem and I am happy to let it have the correspondence and to arrange for the person concerned to be interviewed.

I wish to advert, next, to another matter which my colleague Mr. Elliot has previously raised in the House. Although the Government has not done very much about it, it is causing great concern to school committees, kindergartens and mothers' clubs in my electorate. They believe the Government should ban the manufacture of inflammable children's clothing, particularly dressing-gowns and night-dresses. Mrs. M. Tyler, the secretary of one of these organizations, wrote to me as follows-

As Tasmania has recently taken steps in this regard I think Victoria should follow suit for our children's sake. All untreated inflammable garments should be banned and those treated should have this clearly indicated together with normal labelling.

There was in my electorate a great mystery, which was solved in this House recently, namely, the case of the vanished level crossing. The Government's answer was rather intriguing. Apparently the late Sir Arthur Warner was quite happy to let the Fawkner-Upfield railway line remain closed until the Ford Motor Company showed an interest in buying land in the district. In the meantime, people started to cross the line at a certain point, and when the line was reconstructed because it had become a commercial proposition following the move of the Ford company into the area, the constructing authority thought the crossing was a legal one and built it.

When the council decided that the area concerned would become residential, it wrote to the Railway Department concerning approach roads. The Department argued vehemently that there was no crossing at this particular point, but when a ground inspection was made the departmental officers saw the crossing, which was complete with all the necessary fittings. As the Minister stated, this mistake was

Governor~8· Speech: [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Address-in-Reply. 1099

discovered in November, 1965, and after due notice had been given to the City of Broadmeadows the crossing was removed in April, 1966. Why should this sort of thing be done in a growing community, particularly when the council concerned had written to the Railway Department concerning a road scheme which would make use of the crossing? I assert vigorously that this was a stupid action.

Recently, an article appeared in the Bolte propaganda journal, News from Melbourne, by the Victoria Promotion Committee, headed "Superparks and Satellite Towns Around Melbourne". That must read well for people in England and America. When I asked the Minister what was the position, the honorable gentleman replied that he had merely asked the town planning authorities to do something about it. That headline might indicate the position several years hence. If this sort of announcement is made to impress people overseas, it will only give them a wrong impression. Already there has been too much of this sort of thing in connexion with migrants. If we want to tell people overseas how good this country is, let us be factual and tell them about the country as it is now. If Victoria is not good enough to sell as it is, then the Government should do something about improving it. It is useless to provide this type of material overseas if it induces people to come here only to find that these satellite cities do not exist. I suppose the Government will say that Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong are our satellite cities, and that the great open space between Melbourne and Geelong is a superpark! Of course, even the open space will not obtain for much longer because Geelong is fast becoming an industrial suburb of Melbourne. We should put our feet on the ground, and provide facts rather than fantasy. The Government is giving the Victoria Promotion Committee $140,000 a year to tell the people in England and America what a good guy Henry Bolte appears to be.

Now I come to the sad part of the Governor's Speech where reference is made to those who have passed on. I had not been a member of this House for many years before Sir Dallas Brooks retired from the Governorship, but I pay tribute to his memory on behalf of the people of my province and myself. He was a genial guest when he visited this place, and a very genial host when honorable members went to see him. Like his predecessors and his successor, Sir Rohan Delacombe, Sir Dallas Brooks did a magnificent job for this State, on whose behalf he exercised faithfully his talents and abilities.

I have said on several occasions that I enjoyed the pitch and thrust of battle in debate with Sir Arthur Warner. He was a very knowledgeable and able leader of the Government in this House. I certainly crossed swords with him whenever I could, because a lot of his views were directly opposed to my own. Neverthless, I enjoyed the debates and missed Sir Arthur when he left this House. I very much regret his passing.

Another member whose passing I regret is the Honorable Ray. Tovell, who had ceased to be a member of another place before I became a member of this House, but whom I knew very well. It is with deep regret, too, that I advert to the passing of the Hon. William Galvin, a former Deputy Premier and Acting Premier of this State. During the late Hon. John Cain's absence at the Coronation, our late friend William Galvin acted as Premier, reflecting great credit on himself and the State. I also deeply regret the passing of Roy Crick, the member for Grant in the Legislative Assembly, with whom I was associated in the trade union movement before we became members of this Parliament. He was a sincere and honest battler for the people in whom he believed, and he rendered excellent service to the trade union movement and to this Parliament.

1100 Adiournment. ' [COUNCIL.] " Adioumment.

I conclude by saying that before the Government makes sweeping statements about what it is doing in various fields, it should authenticate its facts. The Opposition will place more value on the Government's utterances if it does this.

On the motion of the Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.

SEWERAGE DISTRICTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of Housing), for the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

LIMITATION OF ACTIONS (NOTICE OF ACTION) BILL.



This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing), was read a first time.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: MATRICULA

TION CLASSES - FISHERIES AND WILDLIFE DEPARTMENT: SALE OF GIPPSLAND PERCH.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing) .-By leave, I, move-

That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next.


The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-


The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province).-I believe a Minister of the Crown has very great responsibilities and important duties to perform in the exercise of his office. I believe that in doing so a Minister must know what is happening in his Department and that he should be fully informed, so as to be in a position to fully inform this House, this Parliament and through it the people of Victoria, of all important decisions that are made in his Department. I regret to announce that apparently the Minister of Education does not know.what is taking place in his Department. To-day I asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) Further to Question No. 15 asked in the House on 11th October, 1966, how many other secondary schools have been written to regarding the possibility of cutting out matriculation subjects next year?



(d) If these schools and their advisory councils object to the proposals, what action will the Minister take?

The reply that I received was completely incorrect. It was as follows:-

As the answer to question (0) is cc none Of, the other questions do not require replies.

I was given two lists of schools, the first of which contained seventeen schools which have what is known as a science-mathematics course, which would be cut out next year. The second group of schools, comprising 26 country and metropolitan schools, were informed that all matriculation subjects would not be taken at their schools next year. I understand that some high officer in the Education Department wrote to a further group of nine schools, all in the country, asking them to comment on the proposal that all subjects except English expression be cut out next year. I discovered these things by telephoning some country high schools and checking the story. I

Adiournment. [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Adiournment. 1l0,1

have in front of me a copy of the Wimmera Mail-Times, dated Monday, 17th October. The newspaper report reads as follows:-

HEAD MASTERS ARE CONCERNED. WIMMERA REFERS MATRICULATION PLAN TO

EXECUTIVE.

The proposed consolidation of matriculation classes in the Wimmera would be a major setback to the development of secondary education in rural areas, head masters of· all Wimmera high schools decided at Horsham on Friday.

A meeting of Wimmera Region Group of the Victorian High School Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Association expressed deep concern at tpe Education Department's proposal to centralize matriculation at selected schools.

-. If the Department proceeds with its plan,

high schools at Dimboola, Kaniva and Murtoa would lose their matriculation classes for three of the five days each week. Dimboola, Kaniva and Murtoa were not listed in the answer to my question on the 11 th October last. My question to-day-

How many other secondary schools have been written to regarding the possibility of cutting out matriculation subjects next year-referred to the three schools mentioned in the newspaper report, . which must have been available to the Minister and to his Department on Monday last, as it was available to members of this House. After checking with teachers and teacher organizations, I ascertained that there were probably eight or nine other secondary schools concerned, but I do not know the exact number. There must be some incompetence on the part of the responsible Minister if he cannot provide this House with accurate information. I urge the Minister in charge of the House to allow my question to be repeated on the next day of meeting to give the Minister of Education, and the representatives of Government in this place, a second chance to answer my question properly.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) .-1 refer to the proposed e~clusion of Gippsland perch, probably better known as Australian bass, from sale, which will have a

Session 1966.-38

serious effect on fishermen operating from Anderson's Inlet. Before any regulation which interferes with the livelihood of a person is made, sufficient notice should be given so that those concerned can make representations either in opposition to or in support of the proposal. 1n this case, I am concerned that these fishermen will be deprived of portion of their income. I do not normally take sides on issues without first delving into the pros and cons, hut on this particular issue I feel compelled to support those peqple who will lose portion of their income. In the Government Gazette of 14th September, this Notice qf Intention appears-

Fisheries Act 1958. NOTICE OF INTENTION TO PROHIBIT THE

SELLING OR ExPOSING FOR SALE OF BASS (GIPPSLAND PERCH).

It is hereby notified for general information, that it is intended after the expiration of one month from the date of the first publication of this notice in the Government Gazette, to move His Excellency the Governor in Council to make a proclamation prohibiting the selling or exposing for sale of Bass (Gippsland Perch) Percalates colonorum during the whole year.

J. W. MANSON, for Chief Secretary.

J. WHARTON, .f,~.

Acting Director Fisheries and Wfidlife.

Although section 10 of the Fisheries Act requires such proclamation or notice of intention to be laid on the tables of both Houses for four weeks, this has not been done. It is nearly five weeks since this notice was gazetted, and I was concerned to learn from the Department that it was anticipated that the Governor in Council would sign this proclamation within the next few days. This could place His Excellency in the position of signing a proclamation in breach of the Act. I ask the Minister in Charge of the House to bring this to the attention of the appropriate authorities before any proclamation is signed.

The exclusion of Gippsland perch from the list of marketable fish is perhaps not a very big item in the

1102 Government , [ASSEMBLY.] Properties.

eyes of most people, and it does perhaps promote some idea 'of saving a sporting fish, but prior notice should be given to people who derive their livelihood from this particular occupation. Statistics prove that the buying and selling of this fish have not diminished its numbers. From one fisherman alone in the Anderson's Inlet area, in 1941 and 1942, 50 perch were marketed; in 1949, 32 lb.; in 1962,668 lb.;· in 1963, 302 lb.; in 1964, 676 lb.; in 1965, 940 lb. and to date this year 1,897 lb. were sold. This constitutes a sizeable portion of a fisherman's income. In bringing this to the notice of the House, I hope that the position will be clarified and that the proclamation will not be signed before due no~ice has been laid on the tables of both Houses.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing) .-1 shall direct to the attention of the Minister of Education and the Chief Secretary, respectively, the matters raised by Mr. Cathie and Mr. Hewson.


The House adjourned at 9.53 p.m. until Tuesday, October 25.

11jtgialatittt A!latwbly.

Wednesday, October 19, 1966.

The . SPEAKER (Sir William McDonald) took the chair at 4.8 p.m., and read the prayer.

. GOVERNMENT PROPERTIES. PURCHASE.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Premier and Treasurer-

1. How many properties have been purchased by the Government and its instrumentalities since 1955? I.

2. What was the total amount paid for these properties and whence the funds were obtained? .

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-To obtain the broad range of information required by the honorable member would involve 'a considerable amount of laborious and costly work on the part of many people. If the honorable member could be more specific as to precisely what he wants and will indicate the purpose for which he 'requires the information, 1 shall endeavour to assist him.

LANDLORD AND TENANT ACT: PRESCRIBED PREMISES: RENTAL

DETERMINATIONS. Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked

the Attorney-General-1. How many properties have been recon

trolled as "prescribed premises" under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1958 in the years 1964, 1965; and to September, 1966?

2. How many rental determinations have been made by the Fair Rents Board in these years and, of these, what proportion was applications by the tenant and what proportion was applications by the owner?

For Mr. RYLAH (Attorney-General), Mr. Wilcox (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers -are-

1. (a) 1964-139. (b) 1965-102. (c) 1966 (to' end of September)-50.

2. Statistics are readily available only in respect of the Metropolitan Fair Rents Board, for which the figures are as follows:-

Number of Applica- Applica-Rental Year. Determina- tions by tions by tions. ·Tenant. Owner.

---

1964 .. .. 608 133 475

1965 .. .. 674 80 594

1966 (to end of September) .. 454 28 426

Statistics in respect of Fair Rents Boards outside the metro~litan area can be obtained only by makmg inquiries of each clerk of petty sessions outside that area, but it is unlikely that any significant number of rental determinations are involved 'or that the· proportions of applications will differ sigI)jficantly from the figures for the metropolitan area.

Police Service [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Board. 1103

However; if the' "honorable member desires the additional information to be obtained, I will make the necessary arrangemerits and furnish him with the information as soon as it is available.

Mr. WILKES.-I shall be grateful if the honorable gentleman will obtain the information in question ..

'POLICE DEPARTMENT. YAR~vILL~ POLICE STATION.

Mr. SCHINTLER (Y arraville) a~ked the Chief Secretary-

Whether the Yarraville police station is to be closed; if so, why?'

For Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. Manson (Minister of·· State Development) .- The answer is "No".

POLICE SERVICE BOARD. HEARI~G OF WAGE CLAIM.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked 'the' Chief "Secretary- '.

Whether the Police Service Board, on the 17th October, commenced a hearing into the wages and conditions of the Victoria. Police Fc;>rce; if so-(a) what type of-hearing; and (b)- whether the AttorneyGeneral authorized counsel for the' Government or the Police Department to object to the leading of evidence by the Police Association that such salaries or wages should be such as to attract recruits to the force, or whether such objection was taken by counseL and, in that event-(i) whether the Government approves the objection; and (ii) on whose instructions the objection was so take~?

. For Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr Manson (Minister of State Development).-The answer is-

The Police Service Board commenced a hearing concerning a claim relative to wages and conditions. of the Victoria Police Force on Monday, the 17th October, and the matter is sub judice.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. New material has been supplied to the House which shows that a Board of the type to which this question refers is not covered by the objection taken by the Minister of S.tateDevelopment on behalf of the Chief Secret"ry. The reply is based on information· which is out· of date.

. The . SPEAKER (Sir William MCDonald).-Does the Minister· .of State D~velopment wish to add to the reply furnished to the honorable member for Brunswick West?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-No, Mr. Speaker.

WORKERS COMPENSATION. INQUIRY BY JUDGE S'l'RETTON.

·Mr. MOSS . (Leader of the Country Party) asked. the Chief Secretary..-

What action the Government has taken to implement the undertaking given for an investigation by His Honour Judge Stretton on certain clauses in the Workers Compensation Act 1958?

F.o·r Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. 'Manson (Minister of State Development).-The answer is-

In accordance with the undertakings given by the Government, the matters referred to at pages 3543 and 4761 of Hansard of the 28th April and 27th May, 1965, respectively, were referred to His Honour Judge Stretton for investigation.

As honorable members are aware, His Honour became seriously ill and was unable to complete his . investigation.

Since then, .at the request of the Government, His Honour Judge Dethridge, the senior judicial member of the Workers Compensation Board, has reported upoli general anomalies in the Act and Mr. Costigan, Q.C., has furnished an opinion with respect. to the provisions of the Act as they affect share farmers and independent contractors. .

ELECTORAL. FAILURE TO VOTE: FINES.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Chief Secretary~

1. How many electors failed to vote at the respective elections for-( a) the Legislative Council and Legislative Assembly: in the years 1955 and 1958; and (b) the conjoint elections of 1961 and 1964?

2. How many of these electors were fined for not voting in the respective years mentioned and what amounts of money were collected in fines for each of those years?

For Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. Manson (Minister of State Development) .-The answers to these questions are somewhat lengthy, and, with the . leave of the House, I should like them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Ed'l:tC(JJ,ion [ASSEMBLY.] Depa'ftment.

Leave was g'ranted, and, the answers were as follows:-

1. (a) The numbers of non-voters at the periodical elections for the Legislative Council and the general eleCtions for the Legislative Assembly held in 1955 and 1958 were as stated hereunder-

1955

1958

Legislative Legislative Council. Assembly.

1.03,059

103,432

83,869

85,252

(b) The numbers of non-voters at the conjoint elections of 1961 and 1964 were as stated hereunder-

1961 1964

2. Action against non-voters-

Non-voting Number Of Year. Notices Non-voters

Despatched. Fined.

1955 .. .. No action taken

1958 .. .. 10,474* 14

1961 .. .. 7,314 49

1964 .. .. 19,783 86

86,994 91,533

--Total Fines

Collected.

$

8.50

25.50

86.00

• These notices were sent to electorS who faUed to vote at both the Legislative A88embly elections (31st May, 1958) and the Legislative CouncU elections (21st June, 1958).

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SCHOOL RESIDENCES.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney) asked the Minister of Education-

1. Who decides where school residences shall be built?

2. What considerations are taken into account when determining which schools should be provided with residences?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of Education) .-The answers are--

1. The Assistant Director of Education on the recommendation of the Residence Selection Committee consisting of representatives of the Primary, Secondary, and Technical Divisions, the Victorian Teachers Union, the Welfare Officer, the Public Works Department, and departmental officers.

2. The main considerations are(i) the availability of funds;

(ii) the availability of private accommodation or Housing Commissiori units within reasonable proximitY to the school; and

(iii) the size of the school and the actual and future requirements of married teachers.

TENDERS FOR CONSTRUCTION WORKS AT LALOR HIGH SCHOOL.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Education-

When it is proposed to call tenders for the building of the third section of the Lalor High School?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister .of Education) .-The answer is-

The Public Works Department hopes to be in a position to call tenders for the work before the end of the current financial year.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. SEYMOUR LEVEL CROSSING.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. Whether his attention has been drawn to reports in recent issues of the Seymour Telegraph, and in the Sun News-Pictorial on 14th October, 1966, regarding stop-watch timings made regularly by Mr. G. Kenihan, editor of the local paper, between the ringing of the first warning bells at the Seymour railway crossing, the locking of the boom gates into position, and the passing of express trains over the crossing, and that such intervals have been recorded as 12 seconds and 8 seconds, respectively?

2. In view of a double fatality at this crossing some months ago, and the expressed desire of local residents that the crossing be made safer, whether, apart from other measures that may be adopted, he will arrange for equipment to be installed which would provide longer periods of warning?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Transport).-The answers are--

1. Yes. 2. The standard minimum warning period

at boom barriers is 25 seconds. The warning times at this crossing, which is not a highway but an approach to the car parking and parcels facilities at the station, have been checked, and contrary to Mr. Kenihan's statements, are operating in accordance with the standard. This timing is considered to be adequate, and therefore no action is proposed to increase the warning period.

Rural Finance and [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] SeUlement Commission. 1105

On the occasion of the fatality to which the honorable member refers, I am advised that the barriers were operating effectively and that the car which was' struck by the train was being backed out from where it had been parked and was on the wrong side of the road. The car by-passed the barriers whilst the bells were ringing and stopped on the line.

It is clear that the fatality was in no way due to any failure of the safety provisions at the crossing.

RURAL FINANCE AND SETTLEMENT COMMISSION.

ALLOCATION OF FARMS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Lands-

How many farms were allocated by the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission in each of the years 1963 to 1965?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Lands).-The answer is-

The numbers of holdings allocated by the Rural Finance and Settlement Commission under the Land Settlement Act during the years in question areas follows :-

1963 Fifty-five 1964 Eighty-seven 1965 Fifty-seven

In addition, dUring the three-year period, ten soldier settlement holdings which became available for re-allocation, were aBotted by the Commission to ex-servicemen under the Soldier Settlement Act.

TOWNSHIP OF CHURCHILL. NAME DISPUTE.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Lands-

Whether he has arrived at a decision in the Hazelwood-Churchill name dispute; if so, what is the decision; if not, when a decision can be expected and what is the reason for the delay?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Lands).-The answer is-

No decision has yet been reached. I am informed that at the last meeting of the Place Names Committee it was agreed to draft a report for confirmation at the next meeting, which will be held towards the end of this month. When I receive the report, it will receive immediate consideration and the decision will be made known to all concerned.

CLEAN AIR COMMITTEE. REGULATIONS ON CHIMNEY STACKS:

POLLUTION TESTS IN WEST BRUNSWICK.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Minister of Immigration, for the Minister of Health-

1. Whether the Clean Air Regulations 1965 (sample openings in chimney) provide for any installations in the chimney of a factory; if so-(a) what is the purpose of the regulation; and (b) what type of installation is required?

2. What existing factories in West Brunswick are provided with sample openings in chimneys or other access facilities?

3. Whether any tests have been made of chimneys in West Brunswick for the purpose of checking harmful emissions therefrom; if so, what tests?

4. Under what circumstances existing or proposed factories are required to provide sample openings in chimneys therein?

5. Whether any over-all plan exists to ensure that factory chimneys in West Brunswick comply with the clean air legislation and regulations, to prevent harmful emissions from these chimneys?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immigration).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are-

1. Regulation 8 of the Clean Air Regulations 1965 provides for the instaBation of an opening in a chimney and means of access thereto.

(a) The purpose is to allow the taking of truly representative samples of the discharge from the chimney.

(b) The type of installation required depends on the purpose of the test, especially whether the sampling is for a particulate or gaseous air pollutant. The sampling openings required for particulate matter are designed to fit the sampling equipment used by the Department's Clean Air Section. This is a Cyclone probe with filter attached as shown in figure 6a of British Standard Specification B.S. 3405: 1961. The Clean Air Section provides a standard drawing of the required opening to suit the type of construction of the chimney or duct.

2. Only an inspection of every chimney or vent in every factory in West Brunswick would yield this information. It would be fairly certain, however, that in regard to sampling for particulate matter only chimneys on which tests have been carried out would have sample openings and access facilities. A sampling opening is provided on the outlet duct of a Rotoclone dust

1106 ,Hospitals, and [ASSEMBLY . .] Oharities Oommis'siqn.

collector' on, the premi~es, of Gatic (Australia) Proprietary Limited, in Hollowayroad, West Brunswick.

'3. A 'test for particulate matte~ (dust) in the exhaust from a Rotoclone dust collector o~ the p'remises of Gatic (Australia) Proprietary Limited has been carried out.

4. Regulation 8 of the Clean Air Regulations 1965 is interpreted as giving the Commission of Public Health power to require sample openings and the necessary access facilities whenever tests are considered necessary or desirable.

On existing plant, if tests are to be carried out, these openings are asked for together with the necessary access facilities. On new plant, if testing is considered necessary or desirable, sampling openings are sometimes asked for at the stage of examination of plans. Usually this is left, however, until after the plant has been completed, since from the plans supplied it may not be clear whether the proposed location of sampling points as determined from drawings will be satisfactory from the point of view of accessibility, proximity of electrical equipment, head room, &c. , 'The provision of sampling openings in

chimneys and access facilities, especially on existing plant, can involve the owners in considerable expense and in some cases diamond drilling and extensive structural work. In plants with a large number of chimneys or vents, this may amount to thousands of dollars.

To require these openings and access facilities on every vent or chimney in this State WOUld, therefore, represent a huge economic loss, since only a minority of such vents or chimneys would ever have to be tested. Indeed in some cases no useful sampling and testing could be carried out to check on emissions.

5. The Clean Air Act 1958 (No. 6220) and Clean Air Regulations 1965 apply to the whole of Victoria. The administration of the legislation is divided between the Commission of Public Health and municipal councils as follows:--

The administration of section 60f the Act which deals with the emission of dark or dense smoke from industrial' chimneys and Division 2 of Part III of the regulations has been delegated to municipal councils. The administration of all other sections of the Act and other regulations devolves upon the Commission.

Thus, it is the duty of the Brunswick City Council to deal with emissions of dark dense smoke in West Brunswick, whilst the examination of plans prior to construction of new industrial plant likely to emit air impurities, the checking of industrial plants for compliance with the standards of concentration for the emission of air impurities, and all other provisions are carried out by the Commission.

Mr. Rossiter.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES COMMISSION.

GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE FO~,. HOSPITALS •.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong West) asked the Minister of Immigration, for the Minister of Health-

1. What have been the individual financial, allocations granted to each hospital as a result of the special financial, grant of $1,000,000 to assist hospital finances?

2. What basis was used in deciding the individual allocations to each hospital?

Mr. ROSSITER (Mil1ister of. Immigration).--:-The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are in the form of several pages of statistical matter, and I seek the leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them. .

Leave was granted, and ,the answers were as follows:-

SPECIAL

Airlie Austin Dental. Hampton Queen Victoria Royal Children's Royal Talbot Centre Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Royal Women's'

GENERAL .

Alfred Box Hill Dandenong Essendon Fairfield Footscray Mordialloc-Cheltenham Preston and Northcote Prince Henry's Royal Melbourne Sandringham Southern Memorial (Brighton) Sunshine St. Georges St. Vincent's Williamstown

AUXILIARY

After Care Caulfield

COUNTRY BASE

Ballarat Bendigo Geelong Gippsland (Sale) Mildura Mooroopna Warrnambool Wimmera

$ 500

65,000 5,700 3,000

27,500 20,000 2,700

16,500 24,600

122,000 31,300

7,000 16,300 31,000 46,700 3,400

16,200 46,100 89,000

4,200 1,800 1,700

500 78,000 3,500

6,300 18,500

26,700 18,600 40,000 6,400

18,200 7,600

20,000 . 4,500

Hospitals and

COUNTRY

DAILY AVERAGE OVER 25 Ararat Bacchus Marsh Bairnsdale Benalla Castlemaine Daylesford Echuca Frankston Kerang Kyabram Kyneton Latrobe Valley Maryborough Portland Stawell Swan Hill Traralgon West Gippsland William AngJiss Wodonga Wonthaggi

COUNTRY

. DAILY AVERAGE UNDER 25 Alexandra Apollo Bay Beeac Birregurra Boort Casterton Cobram Cohuna Dimboola Donald

. [)unolly Edenhope Heywood Inglewood Jeparit Koroit Korumburra

COUNTRY

DAILY AVERAGE UNDER 25 Lismore Lome Macarthur Maffra Maldon

." Mansfield Mortlake Morwel1 Murtoa Myrtleford Nathalia Numurkah Om eo Orbost Penshurst Port Fairy Red Cliffs Ripon Peace (Beaufort) Robinvale Rochester Rupanyup Rutherglen Seymour

[19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Oharities Oommission. 1107

$

2,300 1,200

600 2,400 1,000 3,200 5,200 4,300

500 2,800 4,100 6,700 2,600 3,400 3,600 1,900

11,000 4,600 3,800 1,700 5,000

1,000 500 100 200 200 400

1,000 600

1,100 1,000

100 " 800 600 400 200 100 700

900 200 300

1,900 1,000

900 600

1,500 100

1,600 400 900 300 900 400

1,500 1,400 1,000 1,200 1,300

300 200

1,600

Skipton South Gippsland (Foster) Southern Peninsula Tallangatta Tawonga Waranga (Rushworth) We"rribee Westenport Winchelsea Woorayl Yarrawonga

HOSPITALS FOR THE AGED

Bendigo Greenvale Village

BENEVOLENT HOMES

$ 200 400

2,100 100

1,100 100

1,100 300 200

3,100 1,400

3,100 6,000

Alexander 10,600 Grace McKellar 1,500

This leaves an amount of $36,400 to assist smal1 institutions whose financial position has not yet been determined.

2. The basis used in deciding the new allocations was the general financial position of each hospital and the proportion that $1,000,000 bears to the total amount of bank maintenance overdrafts and outstanding creditors at the 30th June, 1966. (approximately one-ninth).

FOODSTUFFS. USE OF DYES" AND ARTIFICIAL

COLOURINGS: UNIFORM STANDARDS.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Minister of Immigration, for the Minister of Health-

1. "How many dyes and artificial colourings, giving their technical and common names, are permitted· to be used in the manufacture of foodstuffs?

2. Whether these foodstuffs are in common use?

3. Whether there is any reason to suspect that some of these dyes and artificial colourings are causing cancer?

4. Whether any measures have been taken to have a uniform pure food law enacted by al1 Australian States; if so, what progress" has been made?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Immigration).~The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are lengthy, and I seek the leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


1. The dyes and colourings permitted in foodstuffs are listed in Regulation 10(2) of the Food and Drug Standards Regulations 1958. This reads as follows :-

(2) Subject to the provIsions of section 230 of the" Health Act 1958.

" " \ ::" " . "~"

1108 Foodstuffs. [ASSEMBLY.] Foodstuffs.

and regulation 11 (1) of these regulations, food and drugs may be coloured with any of the colourings prescribed hereund~r:

(a) suitable preparations of-(i) annatto, caramel, saffron,

chlorophyll and other natural vegetable colourings and any synthetic vegetable colouring which is chemically the same as a natural vegetable colouring (except gamboge and other harmful vegetable colourings, the use of which is hereby prohibited) .

(ii) carbon black prepared from vegetable sources and free from any polycyclic hydrocarbons ( carbon black prepared from coal tar or from petroleum products is not permitted);

(iii) fruit juice or colouring substances derived from fruit, but such juice or colouring substances shall be free from pulp;

(iv) cochineal or other harmless colouring substances derived from an animal; and

(b) the following coal tar dyes :-Red Shades.

16185 Amaranth 16255 Brilliant Scarlet 4R 14720 Carmoisine 14780 Chlorozol Pink Y 45430 Erythrosine 16045 Fast Red E 14700 Ponceau SX 45435 Rose Bengale 14815 Scarlet GN

Orange Shades. 15980 Orange GGN

Yellow Shades. 13015 Acid Yellow G

(Kond.) 15985 Sunset Yellow FCF 19140 Tartrazine 13011 Yellow RFS 18965 Yellow 2G 14330 Yellow RY

Green Shades. 44090 Green S Blue Shades. 42090 Brilliant Blue FCF

(disodium salt) 73015 Indigo Carmine

Violet Shades. Violet BNP (sodium salt of

4 : 4' di- (dimethylamino) -4" - di - (p-sulphobenzyl amino ) triphenyJ· methanol anhydride).

Mr. Rossiter.

Brown Shades. Brown FK (a mixture con

sisting essentially of the disodium salt of 1 : 3-diamino-4 : 6-di- (p-sulphophenylazo) benzene and the sodium salt of 2 : 4-diamino-5-(p-sulphophenylazo) toluene).

Chocolate Brown FB (the product of coupling diazotised naphthionic acid (l-naphthylamine- 4- sulphonic acid) with a mixture of morin and maclurin (pentahydroxy benzophenone) .

:!0285 Chocolate Brown HT Black Shades.

28440 Brilliant Black BN

2. The above dyes and colourings are only allowed in certain foodstuffs in accordance with regulation 11 (1), which reads:-

No person shall add any colouring ... to any food or sell any food containing any such substance unless the addition or presence of such substance is specifically permitted by these Regulations.

Where these colourings are permitted in foodstuffs the foodstuffs sold in common use.

3. No.

4. Yes. The National Health and Medical Research Council has established an expert committee known as the Commonwealth Food Standards Committee to advise on uniform standards for foodstuffs. When these standards are approved by the National Health and Medical Research Council they are forwarded to the States for consideration as to whether they should be adopted. In this way considerable progress has been made in obtaining uniformity in regard to standards for foodstuffs in Australia.

LABOUR AND INDUSTRY ACT. EMPLOYMENT OF STUDENTS IN

FACTORIES: WAGES.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Fitzroy) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

1. How many-(a) Melbourne university students; and (b) students at school for technical education, were permitted by the Minister, under section 200 of the Labour and Industry Act 1958, to work in factories?

2. At what times of the year most of the students were so employed and for what periods?

Labour and [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Industry Act. U09

3. What wages (if any) they were paid? 4. What type of factories they worked in,

and how they were instructed in the factories?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers are-

1, 2, 3, and 4. No permit under subsection (3) of section 200 of the Labour and Industry Act has been sought for several years. The present situation is that either the practical work ,being performed is not subject to a Wages Board determination, or, if so, that such students have been able to command not less than the minimum rate of wages for the trade concerned.

OPERATION OF SECTION 51. Mr. LOVEGROVE (Fitzroy) asked

the Minister of Labour and Industry-

1. How many cases of delay by objecting parties in enforcing their own laws under section 51 of the Labour and Industry Act 1958 have occurred in connexion with factories in each of the last three years, as known to the Department of Labour and Industry?

2. What are the cases?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers are-

1 and 2. There are at present 35 known cases of factories in the metropolitan district which are being operated as factories but are not registered under the Labour and Industry Act because a municipal council has lodged an objection on the grounds of the location of the factory.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-Do you propose to answer the second part of the question?

Mr. WILCOX.-I have given the whole of the answer.

EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN FACTORIES.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Fitzroy) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry--:-

1. How the Secretary for Labour ascertains the poverty of the parents and guardians of female children referred to in section 130 of the Labour and Industry Act 1958?

2. How the interests of such children, in terms of factory employment, are ascertained?

3. How many male and female children, respectively, were granted permission to work in factories in each of the past three years, and how many applications were rejected in each year?

4. What were the most common grounds for rejection?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and lndustry).-The answers are-

1, 2, 3, and 4. Permits under section 130 of the Labour and Industry Act ceased on 4th February, 1965, twelve months after the raising of the school leaving age under the Education Act to fifteen years. As the honorable member knows, there is a Bill before the House to amend section 130, and no doubt he will have an opportunity to discuss this matter further if he wishes.

INDUSTRIAL AWARDS. COMMONWEALTH AND STATE

INSPECTORS. Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked

the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Whether the Commonwealth Government, in 1955, made a proposal to .the State Government that the Commonwealth should authorize State inspectors to police Commonwealth industrial awards and that the States should authorize Commonwealth inspectors to police State industrial awards; if so, whether any agreement has been reached with the Commonwealth on this proposal?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry).- The answer is:-

Such proposals have been made from time to time, but no agreement has been reached because the proposals have not held any advantage for Victoria'.

DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND INDUSTRY.

PETROL STANDARDS.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Whether his Department employs inspectors for checking the standards of the various petro Is, particularly those advertised' as high octane; if so, how many inspectors are employed and how many successful prosecutions have been launched in recent years for non-compliance with advertised standards?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is, " No ".

1110 . Lake Tyers. [ASSEMBLY. ] Aboriginal Station.

WAGES BOARDS. COVERAGE OF HOSPITAL EMPLOYEES.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Whether he has given consideration to the establishment of appropriate Wages Board or Wages Boards to cover various groups within the public hospital system of this State; if not, when he anticipates he will be in a position to give this matter the urgent consideration it warrants?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry).-In recent weeks, and for quite. some time before that, I have, with officers of my Department, given much consideration to reviewing the wages board structure in the field of hospital employment. Consultations with interested parties have taken place also in recent weeks, and I expect to be able to make a final announcement within the near future.

HOUSING COMMISSION. LAND FOR HOUSING AT CORRYONG.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Housing.-

Whether the Housing Commi,ssion contemplates purchasing more land for housing in Corryong?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The answer supplied by the Minister of Housing is " No ".

LAKE TYERS ABORIGINAL STATION.

LIVING CONDITIONS: ApPOINTMENT OF NURSE: RESIDENCE AND QUALIFICATIONS OF OFFICER IN CHARGE.

Mr. HOLDING (Richmond) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Housing-

1. What action has been taken to implement each of the Minister's recommendations for the improvement of living conditions at Lake Tyers Aboriginal Station following his recent visit?

2. Whether a nurse has been appointed to take up duty at the station; if not, why?

3. Whether an officer in charge is now resident at the station; if so, who he is and what are his qualifications for welfare work?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The Minister of Housing has supplied the following answers:-

1. A special visit to the reserve was made by the chairman of the Board, Mr. Davey, the Director of Housing, Mr. Gaskin and the property officer last Thursday, the 13th October, 1966, for the purpose of completing initial plans in relation to the construction of four new houses and the provision of modern laundry facilities. A building contractor has been located in the Bairnsdale area who would be prepared to use Aboriginal labour in the construction of these houses. Repairs are being effected to two existing staff cottages before Aboriginal families move into them.

A milk issue to school children has already been instituted and in addition a vitamin and iron supplement is provided in accordance with the recommendations of the Department of Health.

2. Yes. A nursing sister commenced duty at the reserve on the 17th October, 1966.

3. No.

ABORIGINES WELFARE BOARD. MEMBERSHIP OF MR. D. R. HOWE:

REPORT OF THE LAKE TYERS PLANNING AND ACTION COMMITTEE.


1. Whether Mr. D. R. Howe, a member of the Aborigines Welfare Board, tendered his resignation to the Board on the ground tp.at, by establishing a committee to investigate possible new projects at Lake Tyers, the Minister had capitulated to pressures of the Aboriginal Advancement League?

2. Whether Mr. Howe then withdrew his resignation with the proviso that he would remain on the Board until the Lake Tyers Investigation Committee presented its report?

3. Whether this report is now available: if so, whether the Minister will lay it on the table of the Library?

4. Whether Mr. Howe is still a member of the Board?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The Minister of Housing has supplied the following answers:-

1. No resignation was officially tendered to the Board from Mr. Howe.

2. See answer to part 1. 3. The report of the Lake Tyers Planning

and Action Committee is not yet available. 4. Yes.

-Education [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Department. 1111

'ExPENDITURE AT STATION: ,EMPLOYMENT OF ABORIGINES.


1. Whether Mr. D. R. Howe is or was a member of the Lake Tyers sub-committee of the Aborigin,es Welfare Board, which sub-committee, in 1964, recommended to the Government the closing of Lake Tyers Aboriginal reserve?

2. Whether Messrs. A. Charles, E. Rodgers, and H. Atkinson are the three Aborigines who were publicly reported (Age, 13th October, 1966) to have protested at the Government's intention to spend money at the Lake Tyers reserve?

3. Whether these men are employed by Mr. D. R. Howe?

4. Whether these Aborigines have their origins in the Gippsland area; if not, whether they have ever re'sided, at Lake Tyers?

5. Whether any of the afore-mentioned Aborigines have any background in New South Wales; if so, what?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Housing are-

1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Messrs. Cecil Rodgers and Hurtle

Atkinson-yes. Mr. Alan Charles, who convened the meeting referred to in the Age 13th October, 1966-No.

4: :No. 5. Messrs. Rodgers and Atkinson were

born in New South Wales, but have lived in Victoria .from an early age. Mr. Charles was born in Victoria.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. MATRICULATION CLASSES.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) .-By leave, I ask the Minister of Education-

Whether he will clarify a statement attributed to him in to-day's press, relating to abandonment of plans to cut some matriculation subjects at certain secondary schools and, in particular, whether the abandonment is of a general nature?

I have advised the Minister of my intention to ask the question, and he has agreed to answer it. , Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Mi~ister of Education) .-1 am obliged to the Leader of the Opposition for having

notified me of his intention ,to ask this question. . I think the question rests" on some misunderstanding. First, it would be an exaggeration to describe what are proposals as plans. Suggestions have been made' to a number of country high schools that they should consider the advisability and the practicability of having some of their children, who have. reached matricu· lation level, taught at nearby high schools where facilities and staff are available and at which it was thought their instruction would be much better. Those suggestions have apparently been taken, not as proposals for consideration, but as cut and dried plans that what I might describe as the " host schools " should proceed to teach pupils from other schools to matriculation level. After further consideration, the proposal, in relation to some schools, was withdrawn. So far as these small country schools involved are concerned, th~ withdrawal is complete.

I think it would be helpful if I outlined the present situation,' in relation to matriculation, in our secondary schools. This year, 75 metropolitan schools and 99 country schools-that is, 174 of some 228 high schools and girls' secondary schools-have matriculation studies over varying ranges. At some, although very few, possibly only one matriculation subject is taught, but the pupils of quite a number take some subjects by correspondence. At 54 high schools or other secondary schools, including the very new schools which do not as yet have pupils old enough for matriculation classes, no matriculation subjects are taught.

In 1967, there will be no restrictions at all at 149 schools, nor will there be any at another ten schools in respect of which we have withdrawn from consideration the proposals which the Leader of the Opposition has inquired about. So, there is no talk of restriction at 159 schools. Seventeen school~

1112 Education' [ASSEMBLY.] Department.

not forming part of the 159, have been advised that the Department is considering a proposal that matriculation mathematics and science shall not be taught at them in 1967 and that pupils taking those subjects will study them at schools in adjacent areas.

I want to make it quite clear that the headmasters of the schools have been invited to submit their views of the proposal. Some have already submitted their views, and I understand that, in one case at least, the restriction will not be imposed. The schools concerned are mostly metropolitan and provincial city schools.

Mr. HOLDING.-They are mainly in the industrial areas, too.

Mr. BLOOMFIELD.-I think not.

Mr. WILTON.-Will you name the schools?

Mr. HOLDING (to Mr. Wilton).The names are in Hansard, and they are all in the" inner industrial areas.

Mr. BLOOMFIELD.-Mr. Speaker, I am attempting to answer a question and I think it is not the custom to interrupt a member in those circumstances. Twenty-six schools, each of which had Form V. in 1966--

Mr. TURNBULL.-You are speaking by leave.

Mr. BLOOMFIELD.-I was asked to clarify the position. I will do so more quickly if I am not interrupted.

Notifications have been s·ent to 26 schools-of which 25 did not have matriculation classes last year, but each of which had Forms V.that it was not intended that they should have matriculation classes in 1967, but those schools were invited to submit their views on the matter. Their pupils would attend nearby schools. I think the school from which pupils would have the farthest to go is the Queenscliff High School. It is expected that the pupils would go to Geelong, unless the head master submits a case to continue teaching

them at Queenscliff. So, 159 schools will not be affected at all by the proposal. It is proposed that at seventeen schools there shall be a restriction to the teaching of the humanities, with a view to the pupils from those schools having better opportunities to study science and mathematics.

Mr. WILTON.-Would you name the seventeen?

Mr. BLOOMFIELD.-I will not name them at this moment.

It is proposed that, at 26 schools, matriculation subjects shall not be taught at all, and that the pupils from those schools shall attend nearby schools. That sets out the situation as clearly as I can do it. I emphasize that the purpose of the proposal is solely to provide the best possible instruction for students. In many cases it would be the best, and would be considered, by both educators and parents, preferable to correspondence lessons which are being taken at present. This is an effort to make the best use of the available science and mathematics staff.

DRAINAGE COMMITTEE. PROGRESS REPORT.

Mr. SUGGETT (Moorabbin), chairman presented the second progress report of the Drainage Committee, together with minutes of evidence.

It was ordered that they be laid on the table, and that the report be printed.

INFLAMMABLE LIQUIDS BILL. Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water

Supply) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the storage and transportation of inflammable liquids, to make provision for the testing of inflammable liquids and of apparatus used in connexion therewith, and for other purposes.


The Bill was brought in and read a first time.

Go-operative Housing Societies [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Financial) BiU. 1113

CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES (FINANCIAL) BILL. The debate (adjourned from

October 12) on the motion of Mr. Porter (Minister of Public Works) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East). -Bills of this nature are, of necessity, introduced from time to time. The purpose of this measure is to increase the limit of the amount of borrowing by co-operative housing societies which the Government may guarantee. Three years ago, the limit was raised from $160,000,000 to $180,000,000, and this Bill provides for a further increase to $200,000,000. Most honorable members know that, because of the wonderful record of stability of co-operative housing societies in this State, the Treasury guarantee has never been called on. Some money is made available to the co-operative housing societies under the terms of the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement, through the Home Builders' AccounL The Treasury guarantees loans raised by the societies from other sources such as banks and insurance com~ panies, or any other lending institutions.

In his explanatory second-reading speech, the Minister stated that, so far, the sum of $175,415,000 has been raised by co-operative societies from lending institutions. Of that total approximately $116,000,000 has bee~ lent by the Commonwealth Savings Bank and the State Savings Bank, so that approximately $6Q.000,000 has been raised outside those two organizations. The trading banks have lent approximately $43,000,000 and insurance companies have lent approximately $10,000,000. Victoria is a stable State -unfortunately, it has a not so stable Government, although the efforts of the Opposition keep the Government on a more or less even keeland it is surprising that private lending institutions, which this Government is generally reputed to repre-

sent in this House, have not come to the party to any great extent by making money available to co-operatives.

If it were not for the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement, under which finance is transferred into the Home Builders' Account and the people's banks-the Com~onwealth and State Savings banksco-operative housing in this State would get a poor deal. It is to be regretted that the Government cannot influence its supporters-private banks, insurance companies and the like-to make available additional finance for the purposes of co-operative housing. Like other members on this side of the Chamber, I have repeatedly stated over the years that private organizations, such as insurance companies and private banks have. failed to make any worth-whi1~ contribution to co-operative housing. The honorable member for Prahran represents a private bank.

Mr. LOXTON .-What do you mean?

Mr. FENNESSY.-The honorable ~ember always has something to say 10 regard to the English, Scottish and Australian Bank.

Mr. LOXTON.-I was employed by that bank.

Mr. FENNESSY.-The honorable member is still the bank's mouthpiece.

Mr. ROSSITER.-And he will continue to represent the people of Prahran.

Mr. FENNESSY.-I realize that he is a good mouthpiece for the private banks, too, and I do not blame the honorable member; they are ensuring his security in this Chamber, so why should not the honorable member be an advocate for them? The Federation of Co-operative Housing Societies of Victoria is the organization which controls co-operatives in this State. Mr. L. V. Mitchell, secretary of the Federation, in a recent issue of Your Home, which is the official journal of the Federation, was critical of private banks, insurance

1114 Co-operative Housing Societies [ASSEMBLY.] " (Financial) Bill." "!

companies, and other organizations. He stated that the co-operatives" are completely starved of funds because the private banks are not prepared to lend money at 4! per cent. when they can obtain 8 per cent. through the activities of organizations such as Esanda Limited. They are not prepared to make a contribution to the progressive development of home building in this State whilst they can obtain better rates of interest elsewhere. Consequently, I can appreciate Mr. Mitchell's statement that co-opera tive housing societies in this State are being starved for funds. He pointed out that new thinking is needed in regard to co-opera tive housing society finance. Mr. Mitchell went on to say-

The renewal of the CommonwealthStates Housing Agreement for a further five years until 30th June, 1971, will provide a welcome injection of more than $9,000,000 per year for societies at a time when the lending institutions, apart from the Commonwealth Bank, have severely restricted their lending to co-operative housing.

Until this Government decided-in its wisdom or otherwise-to allocate approximately 30 per cent. of the money received under the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement to what is known as the Home Builders' Account to provide finance for cooperative housing societies, all of the money received under the agreement was allocated to the Housing Commission.

Mr. RAFFERTY.- You supported that proposal, did you not?

Mr. FENNESSY.-Our party was critical of the legislation under which the Home Builders' Account was set up. Hansard records show that I have made many statements on this subject, and I am still prepared to stand by them. Members of the Opposition pOinted out that the allocation of funds to the Home Builders' Account would mean that less finance would be made available by private lending institutions, and this has proved to be the case. Immediately the Home Builders' Account was established, the private lending insti-

tutions held back their finance. Therefore, "if it were not for the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement, under which finance is made available to the Home Builders' Account; co-operative housing societies would receive very little financiaJ assistance,.

I notice in the issue of Your Home, from" which I have quoted, a statement by the honorable member for Ballaarat South who", apparently, is interested in cooperative housing societies-as are other members of this Chamber. Members of all parties would agree that co-operative housing societies have done a magnificent job, and I have no doubt that we all support the principle that every person should have the opportunity to own his own home. "

The following statement also appears in Your Home:-

The Colac and District Co-operative Housing Society is holding its final termination meeting on Friday, September 16.

In announcing this, the Secretary, Mr. D. Cowan, said that at the meeting the 13 members remaining in the society will receive clear titles to their homes.

This society has terminated at the end of 239 months compared with the notional term of 272 months.

This "early winding-up of the society will result in the saving of 33 months' subscriptions after loan payments to the society.

The remaining members will benefit from a total surplus of $8,200.

This is a clear demonstration of the value to the community of the banding together of families in a co-operative society administered by themselves as sole shareholders.

This is a good illustration of the savings which may be effected by members of co-operative housing societies, and it is typical of any society that is wound up. A number of the old societies have now been terminated. Many families who participated in the early days when cooperatives were formed now find that they have saved substantial sums of money by being members of cooperatives, which would not have been possible if they had been required to pay under a private agreement with a builder or construction authority. " .

Co-operative Housing Societies [19 OCTOBER, 1966.]- (Financial) Bill. 1115

An article in Your Home further states-

Since societies first began operating in 1946, more than $260,000,000 has been advanced to build more than 58,000 homes and house over a quarter of a million Victorians.

It has been said that approximately 80 per cent. of the Victorian population are home owners, which is an outstanding record anywhere in the world. Members of all parties believe that home ownership is a good thing, and this idea is reflected in the growth of co-operative housing societies in this State and in the keen interest displayed by young people who are intent on purchasing their own homes. Some of them have to pay substantial prices for land, and I think the Minister of Immigration will agree that it is difficult for many young couples to find the necessary finance to purchase blocks of land.

An examination of the classified advertisements which appear in the Age newspaper on Saturdays reveals that a person is doing well, if he can buy a block of land, with services provided, for $4,000. In many of the ~astern suburbs, a block of land costs in the vicinity of $5,000 or $6,000. which is a formidable sum for any young couple to find. It is the object of this Parliament to ensure that 95 per cent.' of the valuation shall, under the Co-operative Housing Societies Act, . be made available to a person who is interested in constructing his own home. In the past few years it has increased from approximately 80 per cent. to 95 per cent. .

Members of the Opposition commend the Bill, because they realize that it is necessary to extend the guarantee of loans made to cooperative housing societies to ensure that lending institutions will know that their funds will be secure. So far, no co-operative housing society has " gone broke ", and therefore the Government has not been called upon to provide funds to support' its guarantee. For many years, I was

actively connected with co-operative societies as a director, and I realize, the value of the work they do. Whilst co-operative housing societies are building homes to the satisfaction and benefit of many young people, this State must progress. '

However, I deplore the fact that lending institutions" apart from the Commonwealth Savings Bank and the State Savings Bank, have not lent the societies the amount of money which they could have made available. I have already referred to a statement by Mr. Mitchell in which he regrets that the lending institutions are not backing co-operative housing societies to the extent to which they should assist. However, in the official journal of the Federation of Co-operative Housing Societies of Victoria for AugustSeptember, 1966, he made a further comment which I think is worth recording. It was-After more than 12 years' service, on the Federation committee, I am appalled by the degree of complacency which exists among many society administrators who rely upon the continued" handouts" under the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement.

Such "handouts" require no efforts on the part of societies to obtain funds.

That is a strong and critical statement of administrators within Mr. Mitchell's own Federation, but when one has regard to the fact that many secretaries and directors of societies who previously endeavoured to raise funds on their own account have become lackadaisical and now rely on handouts from the Home Builders' Account, it is not as strong and critical as it might be.

Commonwealth - State housing agreements cover a span of five years, and at the start of the period of each agreement 120 or 130 societies can be formed immediately, even though they do not get their full allocation of funds in the first year. However, they receive' an ' early allocation and are able to satisfy some members. Of course, many societies obtain temporary

1116 Go-operative Housing Societies [ASSEMBLY.] (Financial) Bill.

finance from lending institutions, knowing full well that these loans are guaranteed by the Government and that they will get the full amount they require within a period of five years. The important point is that these loans from the lending institutions are on a short-term basis only; the lending institutions are not prepared to enter the long-term field.

A further comment made by Mr. Mitchell in the same journal is-There can be no assurance that the Commonwealth-State housing agreement will be renewed in 1971.

I do not know whether Mr. Mitchell has some preconceived ideas of what this Parliament-I do not refer to the Government because it is most likely that it will not be in office at that time-will do when the next Commonwealth-State agreement comes before it for consideration. It may be that Mr. Mitchell has some fore-knowledge of what the Commonwealth Government intends to do. However, it is rather significant that he made such a statement, and I should like him to substantiate and elaborate on what he has already said. I make this comment now, because I know that Mr. Mitchell reads Hansard. It is not the intention of the Opposition to oppose the Bill.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney). -On behalf of the Country Party, I support the Bill, the purpose of which is to increase the Government guarantee of loans made to cooperative housing societies from $180,000,000 to $200,000,000. The honorable member for Brunswick East has covered the ambit of housing societies 'extremely well, so I shall not go over the same ground. One can only be satisfied with the progress that has been made by cooperative housing societies and hope that it continues, because the type of home being built by the societies is better than that built by the Housing Commission. A more selective type of home is available to young couples if they are provided by the societies, and generally the homes are built by

local builders, whiCh is a good thing for the towns in which they are built and for the State generally.

I give full credit to the directors of the societies for the time they put into the task of guiding the societies along the way, thus enabling them to build homes in an efficient manner. In fact, all activities by the societies are to be commended. Co-operative housing societies have been in existence for 21 years, and in that time they have built 11 per cent. of the houses constructed in Victoria. As' at last month, 1,011 co-operative housing societies were in existence, and up to 30th June of this year 56,088 families had obtained homes through them. I am sure that honorable members generally will agree that home ownership is one of the greatest assets this State can have, because people who own their own homes take a greater interest in them and the surrounding area.

I was interested to hear the honorable member for Brunswick East quote some comments made by Mr. L. V. Mitchell, the secretary of the Federation of Co-operative Housing Societies of Victoria. I point out that increased costs, 'over which we have no control, and the fact that less money is available for lending to co-operative housing societies, mean tha t fewer societies will be formed and fewer homes built in the future. A newspaper circulating in the district which I represent contained the·following report on this subject-

JOINT HOUSING .. BADLY NEEDS FUND"

Co-operative housing schemes in Victoria could fold up within a few years if the funds continued to decline, Mr. L. V. Mitchell said yesterday.

Mr. Mitchell, secretary of the Federation of Co-operative Housing Societies of Victoria, was commenting on the warning in the annual report of the State Savings Bank.

The report, tabled in Parliament on Tuesday, said that the bank had increased its investment in housing in 1965-66.

But the maintenance of such a high level of lending for housing meant less money was available for investment in other fields the bank said. '

Co-operative Housing Societies [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Financial) Bill. 1117

Mr. Mitchell said that funds from savings banks (other than the Commonwealth Bank), insurance companies and superannuation funds had cc practically dried up."

Co-operative housing had received only $22 million last financial year, and this could drop as low as $18 million this year.

II If co-operative housing is going to be reduced to depending on money from the Commonwealth-States Housing Agreement and the Commonwealth Bank, it would go out of existence," he said.

In his second-reading speech the MiniSter of Public Works stated-

It will be appreciated that increasing the guarantee limit will not itself provide more finance for the societies.

Tha t is one of the tragedies of the position. The work that co-operative housing societies have done over the years is generally appreciated, and more money should be channelled into this avenue because of the type of houses the societies provide. The Minister also stated-

This scheme has worked so efficiently that no claim has been made on the Government with respect to guarantees and one may predict, with confidence, that a claim will not be made in the future.

That speaks volumes for the success of the co-operative housing society scheme, and members of the Country Party support the Bill and wish it a speedy passage.

Mr. LOXTON (Prahran).-I did not intend to participate in the debate because, so far as the societies in which I am interested are concerned, it is vital that this Bill should be sent to another place and passed as quickly as possible, and then proclaimed in order that the Treasurer can give guarantees to co-operative societies formed under the Home Builders' Account. The honorable member for" Brunswick East should realize that this Bill will in fact make finance available to societies in the near future, notwithstanding that the funds on which the societies really depend are derived from the Home Builders' Account. The figures referred to by the Minis .. ter in his second-reading speech and those quoted by the honorable member for Brunswick East do not

really tell the full story of what happens. They do not indicate the part played by those lending institutions which are providing bridging finance to the societies on a short-term basis.

In my OpInIOn, the honorable member for Brunswick East could have been critical of the Commonwealth Savings Bank, instead of praising it, if he had compared the amount of money made available by the Bank of New South Wales for co-operative housing with that provided in Victoria. Of course, no criticism can be levelled at the State Savings Bank in this regard, and the honorable member for Brunswick East did not criticize it. However, he congratulated the Commonwealth Savings Bank for its efforts, but I am critical of this organization because I do not think it is playing its part in providing sufficient finance for housing in Victoria. I am proud that the co-operative societies with which I am associated had the privilege of establishing the E. T. Ebbels Co-operative Housing Society.

Mr. WILTON.-Who is that?

Mr. LOXTON.-The gentleman whose name is included in the society's title is the former Registrar of Co-operative Housing Societies. Scarcely a member of this House did not loudly praise Mr. Ebbels for his work when he was Registrar, yet the honorable member from Broadmeadows does not know who he is. That shows the ignorance of some Opposition members.

Mr. FENNESSy.-He was appointed by a Labor Government.

Mr. LOXTON.--Now he works under the chairmanship of a Liberal member. This particular society was formed from the Home Builders' Account with an amount of $200,000 made available over a period of four years. The important thing is that the moment this legislation is passed the Eagle Star Insurance Company will provide bridging finance to the tune of $150,000, and from then on

IUS San Remo [ASSEMBLY.] . Lands Bill.

the 'members of this society will be able to build their own homes. That .is the essence of what this Bill will .do. It will provide the opportunity for bridging finance to be obtained from institutions which, of course, are not referred to.

Mr. FENNESSY.-In his secondreading speech, the Minister mentioned short-term loans totalling nearly $3,000,000.

Mr. LOXTON.-The honorable member for Brunswick East asserted that insurance companies, friendly societies, and trading banks and their savings bank departments, have not lent any money. I should like to refute that statement. These particular people have done more than a worth-while job in the field of co-operative housing. Prior to the establishment of the society that I mentioned, bridging finance was obtained- from the particular hank that the honorable member for Brunswick East is so pleased to ridicule at every opportunity. I am grateful for finance for co-operative housing societies, irresp~ctive of its source. I wish the Bill a speedy passage. The sooner we stop talking about it, and send it to another place the better.


The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

SAN REMO LANDS BILL. The debate (adjourned from Octo

ber 11) on the motion of Mr. Balfour (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong· West) .The passage of this short Bill will benefit the Shire of Bass by enabling the development of recreational facilities in the township of San Remo. The purpose of the Bill is to authorize the result of negotiations that have been proceeding over the past nine years between the Shire of Bass and the Department of Crown

Lands and Survey concerning two separate areas of land, which are detailed in the First and Second Schedules to the Bill. .

Opposition members have no objec.tion to the proposals outlined in the measure, and therefore does not oppose it. In fact, we trust that many similar Bills, whose object Will be to develop recreation areas throughout the State, will come before the House in the future. This is particularly important, because it is undeniable that in the future there will be a shortening of working hours of employees both in this State and throughout Australia. Consequently, there will be' more opportunity for recreation. Further, the reduction in the use of physical labour following the modernization and mechanization of industry will cause individuals to have more need to take advantage of whatever recreational facilities can be provided. For these reasons, all honorable members, particularly those belonging to the Opposition, will strongly support any measure similar to the one under conSIderation.

. The area of land set out in the Second Schedule to the Bill, comprising 3 acres 12 perches, was temporarily reserved for public ·recreation by Order of the Governor in Council in 1888. However, to-day, nearly 80 years later, the land is "in almost its original state. Apart from occasional use for the grazing of stock by adjacent landholders, the land has remained idle.'

I understand that in 1932 private interests approached the Shire of Bass with the object of purchasing the land, but the shire council, supported . by a petition of local residents to prevent the sale, took appropriate action because the council still believed that the land would be developed for the purpose for which it has been reserved. Now, the shire has agreed that the land is

. not suited for recreational purposes, because it is too' small and is not

.'Ban Rerrw '[19 OCTOBER, 1966.] , 'Lands Bill.' ' - ':, ,: lil~

situated in a convenient location in relation to the township of San Remo.

,In 1957, the shire indicated that it ~as prepared to buy more suitable freehold land in a central situation to. develop for recreational purposes. The council paid $24,000 for this area of approximately 9! acres, which is detailed in the First Schedule. The value of the present recreation reserve is about $4,000. The council o.f the Shire of Bass has indicated that it is willing to transfer the newly purchased area of land, set out in the First Schedule, to the Crown under the Lands Act, if, in return, it is granted the original area -that referred to in the Second Schedule-by the Crown, so that it can sell it and offset to some extent the cost of the new area. I think this is reasonable, and I am sure the House will support this view.

, The initiative displayed by the Shire of Bass is praiseworthy and worthy of being adopted as a guide by other muniCipalities throughout Victoria. I believe that the activities of many undesirable elements in our community to-day, including those who break the law, can be traced back to the fact that in the past responsible authorities did not provide adequate recreational facilities for the people. I cite the brawls that are occurring in the metropolitan area at the present time between cc mods ", cc sharpies ." and cc rockers", or whatever they call themselves. This is a strong reason why we should support legislation of this type. As the Crown is gaining financially and all of the parties concerned have no objection to the Bill, the Opposition supports it and wishes it a spe,edy passage.

Mr. COCHRANE (Gippsland West). -This relatively small measure has an impressive title-

To provide upon the surrender to' Her Majesty of certain land in the township of San Remo for the reservation thereof as a site for public recreation, and for the revocation of the reservation of certain

other iand in the said 'township temporatily reserved as a site for public recreation, and for: ,the grant thereof to the president, councillors and ratepayers o,f the Shire',of Bass, and for pther purposes. '

In 1888, the area referred to in th~ Second Schedule to the Bill came under the jurisdiction of -the Shire of Phillip Island and Bass. Since then separate shires of Phillip Island and Bass, respectively, have been established. San Remo is now within the Shire of Bass. This land~ which is, the' last remaining Crown land in the San Remo area, was reserved as a site for public recreation. It is situated on top of the hill which dominates San Remo, about three-quarters of a mile or more from the centre of the township overlooking Westernport Bay and the ocean. The land has never been developed, but has been used over the 'years for grazing.

A few years ago the residents of San Remo approached the Bass Shire Council with a view to the council purchasing the last remaining large area of freehold land in the township. This area, which was good subdivisional land, was held by a person who wished to subdivide, but the council was able to come to an arrangement whereby the outer portion of the area was left for subdivision and 9! acres were taken over by the council at a cost of $24,000. The title to that land has been surrendered to the Crown and this proposed exchange means that the 3 acres 12 perches will now be,come the property of the Bass Shire Council and that the council will be free to subdivide or sell it by the best means at its disposal to recoup some of the $24,000 which it expended in the purchase.

The Department of Crown Lands and Survey has estimated the value of the 3 acres 12 perches to be in the vicinity of $4,000, which means that this transaction will be of considerable benefit to the State. The area of 9! acres which is to be transferred to the Crown for recreational purposes is in a very favourable

1120 Appeal Costs Fund [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) ]Jill.

position in the township of San Remo -it is in the heart of the town and adjacent to the State ·school. Therefore it will be an acquisition to the school authorities and the pupils of the school.

The citizens of San Remo are to be commended for their initiative in requesting the council to acquire this area, and the council is to be commended for having taken the necessary action and raising a considerable loan for this purpose. San Remo is a tourist resort as well as a fishing port, and this area will provide a place of recreation for the Victorian and interstate visitors who go to that part of the State. The residents are well known as a selfhelp band of people who have combined in various public activities. It is only through their public enterprise that there is a hall at San Remo. I congratulate the Minister for having introduced this Bill, which has the full support of the Country Party.




The debate (adjourned from October 12) on the motion of Mr. Wilcox (Minister of Labour and Industry) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -This is a very important Bill to those to whom it may apply, and one must, although perhaps reluctantly and niggardly, compliment the Government for introducing it. The Government did not originate this type of legislation, as it operated for many years during the regime of a Labor Administration in New South Wales.

Previously, if there was a successful appeal, the ordinary rule was that the respondent who had been

successful in the court below had the pleasure of paying the legal costs incurred because of a wrong judgment. Lawyers are always careful to ensure that, if mistakes are made in the legal system, in some way they pay for it.

Mr. Moss.-It always goes the right way.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Even where there are deficiencies, lawyers contribute to a fund to cover those deficiencies. I do not know whether the farmers pay for all their deficiencies.

Mr. Moss.-They pay all the time.

Mr. TURNBULL.-To enable these costs to be paid, a fund was set up by imposing an additional $2 stamp duty on Supreme Court writs-I suppose the client pays for it, and I might have gone a little too far when I said the lawyers pay-an extra $1 stamp duty on County Court summonses, and 10 cents stamp duty for summonses out of the Court of Petty Sessions. From the money collected in this way, the fund was set up and is administered by a board consisting mainly of people from the legal profession.

Mr. Moss.-Is that duty deducted from the lawyer's fee, or is it added to the client's bill?

Mr. TURNBULL.-It goes into his account as "out-of-pocket", so in the long -run the addition"al amount is paid by the client. The scheme has been extremely successful, and it does not apply only to appeal proceedings. Many cases of litigation become abortive because of the death of a judge, or a jury disagree· ing, and a second trial has to be held, which causes the costs to increase. Of course, the lawyer has to be paid, and these additional costs are paid out of the fund.

The Minister made an excellent explanatory second-reading speech on the proposals contained in the Bill, and I do not intend to restate his explanation. The honorable

Appeal Costs Fund [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (A.mendment) Bill. 1121

gentleman referred to a number of instances in which applications which were within the spirit of the original legislation had to be refused because of a strict interpretation of the Act. One particularly interesting instance is that of a father or a close relative, for example, who has to pay the legal costs of a trial in which an infant is charged and, under the terms of the Act as it now stands, applications cannot De granted in favour of these persons who, in effect, put up the money. This is a very desirable proposal, which is well within the spirit of the original legislation.

Another interesting case mentioned by the Minister involved an infant plaintiff, suing through his next friend, his father. Where damages are awarded to an infant, the amount has to be approved by the court in which the proceedings are initiated. In the case referred to, the father was quite prepared to accept the amount offered by the defendant, but the Judge thought it was insufficient and ordered that the matter go for trial. The matter went for trial, and the Judge turned out to be wrong-the jury did not award the amount which had in fact been offered and which the Judge felt was insufficient. In those circumstances, it seems unfair that the party who was quite prepared to accept an amount which the Judge felt was inadequate should be liable for the additional costs. This is another case which is well within the metes and bounds of the legislation.

As I said in my opening remarks, these proposals are most desirable for those to whom they will apply. The Labor Party wishes the Bill a speedy passage.


The Bill was read a second time, and committed, pro forma.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry) presented a message from His Excellency the Governor recommending that an appropria-

tion be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

A resolution in accordance with the recommendation was passed in Committee and adopted by the House.

The House went into Committee for the consideration of this Bill.

The clauses were agreed to, and the Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

SEWERAGE DISTRICTS (AMENDMENT) BILL

The debate (adjourned from October 5) on the motion of Mr. Darcy (Minister of Water Supply) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Sewerage Districts Act 1958. Clause 2 amends paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) of section 8 of the principal Act, which enables the officers of sewerage authorities to enter upon land for various purposes. The amendment in clause 2 will enable such officers to enter upon land for the purpose of carrying out geological surveys. These surveys will enable an authority to determine the rock strata of the land and to obtain more accurate information prior to establishing treatment works. Members of the Opposition feel that this is a reasonable proposition, and raise no objection to it.

Clause 3 proposes an amendment to section 28 of the principal Act to permit members of a sewerage authority who are also members of an incorporated company consisting of more than 20 persons to take part, with the approval of the Governor in Council, in discussions affecting the company. I shall cite an example. The situation could arise where the majority of members of the sewerage authority established in a district were shareholders of a co-operative

1122 Se-werage Districts,

company whiCh desired to transact business with the authority. Uhd.er the present legislation, the members of the company could not, take part in the discussions, and it might not be possible for the authority to form a quorum. The amendment in clause 3 will permit the shareholders of the company to take part in the discussions. As this is already an ~stablished practice in the field of local government, the Opposition has .no objection to the proposal.

Clause 4 is similar to a provision recently dealt with by the House concerning the Mildura District Sewerage Authority. It provides that where it becomes apparent that it is not possible to enforce payment of a particular account, to save the necessity of continuing to record this unpaid account, the authority, on the recommendation of its auditor and with the approval of the Minister, may cease to account for this money in the books. However, as 1 understand the position, the debt will not be written off. It will not be necessary to continue to account for the money, but if some unfor~een circumstance arises in the future and it becomes possible to collect the debt, the account will be written back into the books of the authority. Again, members of the Opposition have no objection to the proposal. '

Clause 5 is a rather strange provision. The Minister of Water Supply now indicates, by interjection, tha t he proposes to seek the deletion of this clause. 1 can understand his desire, because 1 cannot make head or tail of the clause; 1 do not think he can, either. A strange situation has arisen. This Bill has been brought into the House; the Minister has made a second-reading explanatory speech on it; and before the second-reading motion has been debated he has indicated that he wants a clause to be deleted. The Government has a distinct advantage over Opposition and other non-Government members. It has had months in which to prepare its legislative programme; it also has the benefit of the

Mr. Wilton.

expert, advice of va,rious· depaii~ mental officers; yet, before the· ink is dry .on the Bill, arid for· reasons best known to itself, it wishes to delet~ a clause." I expect that' the Minister will do the House the honour of explaining why he pr~~ poses to take this step.

Mr. DARcy-I have already told you.

Mr. WILTON.-The Minister of Water Supply met me outside the House and stated that he wanted to make a statement..on the Bill, by leave. Why is it necessary to delete clause 5? Surely honorable members can expect something better from the Government? ,I do not know whether his proposal to delete this clause is tied. up with the ·following statement in his second-reading speech:-Provision is also being made to enable the interest-free advance to be used for the purchase of lands required for proposed works. This will enable a new sewerage authority, immediately after its constitution, and before it has funds of its own available, to complete the purchase of lands required for treatment and disposal works. The landowner concerned will not then be left for twelve months or more, as he sometimes is at· presen~, in a state of uncertainty regarding his future.

I can find nothing. in the measure that relates to that statement.

Mr. ,DARcy.-It "is not in theEill.

Mr. WILTON.-Why did the Minister make this statement when there is no provision in the Bill to cover it? Honorable· members are entitled to some explanation. Such a proposal must have been in the mind of the Minister when he prepared his second-reading speech -I am charitable enough to assume that he did write that speech. 1 concede that the proposal contained in the statement 1 read from the Minister's second-reading speech has much merit and' that it would be to the advantage of the sewerage authority if such a situation were created.

Sewerage· Districts· [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (A.mendment) ]3ill. U23

Under existing legislation; it is possible for the Treasurer to advance, by way of an interest-free loan, an amount equal to, I think, 7! per cent. of the total capital cost of the works of the authority for the purpose of carrying out initial surveys. I do not know whether the Minister was thinking along those lines, but I consider that it would be quite a sound proposition if this practice were extended so that the authority could c.omplete its negotiations with landowners to acquire land for the purpose of establishing treatment works, or any other works relating to its undertaking. I commend the Minister for bringing this proposal forward, but I am at a loss to understand why he should refer to it in his second-reading explanatory speech when there is no reference to the matter in the Bill. Now, the Minister wishes to delete clause 5.

Mr. B. J. EVAN·s.-That provision has probably got mixed up in some other Bill.

Mr. WILTON.-Judging from the performances . of the Government over the past two days, that is possible. Yesterday, the Minister of Immigration had thrust on him a Bill about which he knew nothing; he could not give honorable members even a brief outline of what. the Government was proposing. To-day, there is confusion in regard to this measure. If this House is not to be reduced to the level of its becoming a complete schemozzle, private members will have to scrutinize closely all proposed legislation and bring to the attention of the Government any irregularities they find. This will have to be done in the interests of the citizens of this State.

I realize that this places a real responsibility on honorable members, other than Government members, who do not have the advantage of weeks or even months in which to examine Bills. Frequently, Opposition members "struggle" to secure an adjournment of the debate on a Bill for fourteen days. It has become

the practice of the Government . tQ defer the introduction of important measures until the last two or three weeks of the sessional period, when they must be rushed through Parliament. Under such circumstances, the Government screams when the Opposition seeks the adjournment of the debate on a Bill for one week; it claims that there is no time for such a lengthy adjournment!

Clause 5 of the Bill reads-In sub-section (2) of section 109 of the

principal Act after the word II shall" there shall be inserted the expression, II except as provided in section 120".

Section 120 of the principal Act sets out the various duties of a sewerage authority; it' could be termed the general provisions section of the legislation. Section 109, of course, empowers an. authority to dispose of property, material or buildings which it considers are no longer required and apply the moneys derived therefrom towards the general expenses of carryip.g the Act into effect.

As I· said earlier, I find ·it difficult to understand the statement in the Minister's secondreading speech referring to a provision which would enable' a sewerage authority to deal more expeditiously with the acquisition of private property. However, there is no reference to this in the Bill. The Minister has already indicated that he will say something . on this point at a later stage. I shall be interested to hear the honorable gentleman's comments. I hope the Minister will persist with his proposal which, I believe, would be a step in the right direction. It would be a good, practical action for the Government to extend to sewerage authorities the right to use a portion of an interestfree loan from the Treasury to settle proceedings which are necessary in connexion with the acquisition of private land. I agree with the Minister, who stated-

The landowner concerned will not then be left for twelve months or more, as he sometimes is at present, in a state of uncer

. tainty regarding his· future.

1124 Sewerage Districts [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Perhaps if I cite a hypothetical case, it might enable honorable members to understand more fully what I mean.

A sewerage authority could be established in a small country town and, in entering into negotiations with some landowner on the outskirts of the town, it might be necessary to acquire property for the establishment of treatment works. Land acquisitions of this type can embrace areas extending from a few acres to many acres-in some instances, an acquisition could relate to hundreds of acres of land. It is feasible that, in such circumstances, a landowner's property could be affected to such an extent that it was no longer an economic proposition. The landowner concerned would doubtless desire to re-establish himself as soon as possible but, owing to the delays involved in the payment of compensation for the land acquired by the sewerage authority, he might be unable to compete for the purchase of suitable property that came on the market, perhaps in the near vicinity of his eXisting property. Until compensa-tion is paid, the landowner may not have the financial resources with which to purchase another property.

It is unreasonable to expect a landholder to wait for compensation over a protracted period of time. Consequently, there is a good reason for the Government to reconsider the proposal to which the Minister of Water Supply referred in his second-reading speech. Obviously, the Minister must have been in favour of it, although it appears that he is unable to get his way with the Government. Probably the Treasurer turned off the tap, so to speak, saying, "I am sorry; you cannot have this provision in the Bill-that is the end of it ". I should like to know whether the Minister acted in defiance of the Treasurer in referring to this matter in his second-

Mr. Wilton.

reading speech. It is possible that the honorable gentleman was determined to mention the proposal, irrespective of whether the Treasurer approved of it. Perhaps the Minister will explain the real position during the Committee stage.

There is a strong case for sewerage authorities to be given these powers. I t could mean the difference between a sewerage authority entering into amicable negotiations with a landowner and having to use compulsory acquisition powers to force a landholder off his property. If an authority could approach a landholder at the outset and say to him, " We want your land. If you are a willing seller and agreement can be reached concerning the price, we will be able to pay you straight away." If this could be done, everybody would be happy and the landholder would be able to re-settle himself almost immediately.

Unless the Minister is prepared to move or accept an appropriate amendment to the Bill, landowners will be forced to wait 'some time for compensation for land that is acquired. It is regrettable that the House should witness the spectacle of a Minister, in his second-reading speech, referring to a proposal which is not contained in the Bill. The honorable gentleman referred to the purposes of the legislation, but, upon examination, it is evident that what he said in his speech is not factual. In other words, the Bill omits to implement a proposal which the Minister stated would be put into effect. I do not know whether the relevant provision was in a draft of the Bill which this House has not seen. Possibly, the original Bill was redrafted and the provision was deleted from it.

I hope the Government takes stock of itself and pulls up its socks, so to speak, and runs its affairs in a more business-like manner. Honorable members hear much about the Government being a business-like Administration, but I

Sewerage Districts [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Amendment) Bill. 1125

shudder to think what would happen if private enterprise carried on in the same manner. I t would be a case of God help the people of Victoria! The Opposition believes the proposal, outlined by the Minister of Water Supply in his second-reading speech, is sound and requests the Government to give serious consideration to its insertion in the Bill. It should support its own Minister whom, I believe, in all sincerity, attempted to ensure that justice would be meted out to landholders who, because of a proposal to establish a sewerage service in a particular municipality, lose a portion of their properties. .

Clause 6 is designed to amend section 147 of the principal Act. It appears that there is some legal doubt whether a stipendiary magistrate is authorized to settle disputes in damage claims in excess of $1,000. Clause 6 will put this matter beyond doubt. If the Bill is passed, disputes concerning claims for damages up to $1,000 against an authority by some person or persons will be handled by a stipendiary magistrate; claims in excess of $1,000 will be dealt with by a Judge of the County Court. Decisions of the stipendiary magistrate will be final but, in the case of decisions of a Judge of a County Court, there will be a right of appeal to the Supreme Court. Of course, the decision of the Supreme Court in these cases will be final.

The Opposition believes that no doubt should exist concerning the rights of persons who have suffered as a result of activity by a sewerage authority. We believe, as the Government obviously believes, that it is wrong that a person, having suffered damage, should find that his efforts to obtain justice are frustrated because of the failure of Parliament to enact legislation which will ensure that he receives just treatment at all times. For that reason, the Opposition supports clause 6.

Clause 7 proposes to amend section 186 of the principal Act. The amended section will allow the service of notices by post. It will be the responsibility of the authority to furnish proof that the notice in question was properly addressed to the owner and, in fact, was posted. This method has been introduced in legislation relating to the Country Fire Authority, and a similar principle exists in the Local Government Act. The Opposition believes it is a reasonable method and offers no objection to it.

Finally, I again voice the Opposition's support for the principle outlined by the Minister of Water Supply in his second-reading speech relating to a proposal, which is not contained in. the Bill, whereby sewerage authorities would be enabled to use a portion of the 7! per cent. interest-free loans which can be advanced by the Treasury to enable initial works to be carried out. This is in the life of the authority but at this point of time, it has not rec.eived authority from the Governor in Council to raise loan funds. It is regrettable that the Minister's colleagues were not prepared to support him as the Opposition has done.

Mr. STIRLING (Swan Hill).-The Sewerage Districts Act is most important because it affects many cities and towns, and its operation vitally concerns many people living in those towns. Therefore, the Act should be amended from time to time to bring it up to date and to make it as efficient as possible. The amendments proposed in this Bill are designed to bring the Sewerage Districts Act into line with other Acts. The amendments have been requested by various authorities and organizations, and there is, therefore, no reason why I should offer any criticism. I hope the passing of this amending Bill will assist sewerage authorities and people associated with them.

i126 Sewerage Districts [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendnie·nt) Bill.

Clause 2 amends section "8 of the i?r~ncipal Act to include geological surveys. That is a natural provision to be exercised by any new authority, and my party sees no objection to its inclusion in the Bill. Clause 3 inserts new section 28A providing that the Governor in Council may permit certain disqualified members to' vote in order that a quorum may be formed. ,It is unsatisfactory that the business of an authority cannot be carried on because of the 'lack of a quorum and, therefore, this amendment is necessary. Clause 6 amends section 147 of the principal Act, and in sub-section (2) ,of. that section there is provision for a claim to be made to a stipendiary magistrate or a Judge of the County Court. That has not been clear in the minds of some authorities, and this Bill ensures a complete understanding of the position.

I refer to the matter raised by the honorable member for Broadmeadows concerning the proposed deletion from the Bill' of a matter that was referred to by the Minister of Water S:upply in his second-reading speech. He said-Provision is also being made to enable the interest-free advance to be used for the purchase of lands ,required for proposed works. This will enable a new sewerage authority, immediately after its constitution, and before it has funds of its oWn available, to complete the purchase of lands required for treatment and disposal works. The landowner concerned will not then be left for twelve months or more, as he sometimes is at present, in a state of un~ertain ty regarding his ~u ture.

I hope that, as early as possible, the honorable gentleman will give a complete explanation of the withdrawal of that provision. Many difficulties arise in the constitution of a new authority, and, as hOt:lorable members realize, particularly in the early stages, funds are not available. If th~ ,Minister believes that, tbis pro~ vision is worth while; I hope. he will give it further consideration. and

Mr. Stirling.

that 'at an early date, he will intro:' duc~ a further amending Bill to incorporate this assistance.

Mr. Moss.-Perhaps the Liberal Party sewerage committee got at him.

Mr. STIRLING.-That is not my concern' I am concerned that apparentIy he thought this provision was worth while. My party offers no objection to the Bill. ,

The'motion was agreed to.

The Bill was read a second time and committed. '

Clause 1 'was agreed .to.

Clause 2 (Surveys 'to include geological surveys).

.' Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water Supply) .-It is true· .that! as pr~viously drafted, the, BIll dId con~am the proposal mentioned in my secondreading speech that was referred to by the honorable members for Broad-meadows and Swan Hill. ' '

Mr. WILKES.-I~ 'was' in the Bill.

Mr. DARCY.-It was taken out by the· Treasurer. I am perfectly honest about this; I am responsible for the measure.

Mr. WILToN . ..:.....We appreciate your honesty;. but it confirms our dOlibts about the Treasurer.

Mr. DARCY.-I appreciate ,.th~ praise of the hOI?-orable. member for Broadnleadows, but· I WIsh he would not be' so prolific with it. The Treasurer 'has always been most generous in advances' to enable authorities and commissions to purchase land which is required. The procedure, which makes, ~enerous provision, is that if land IS to be acquired the price is deci~ed, upon and the' deal 'with the landholder concluded as quickly as possible. If he requires to buy a' new property because part or whole of his property is being taken over by the, authority, he can be given a considerable

Sewerage Districts·.; [19 o.CTOBER, 19~6.] (Amend1J1.en~) Bill: 1127

advance, even before the· purchase price' to be paid by the authority is actually fixed, so that he may acquire :another. property.

.' SinceI have been a Minister~ 1 hav~ had experience of cases where landowners have said that they have been left with houses but. without sufficient areas to provide a living. If that is genuinely .so, the whole of a property will be bought at an arranged price and then, because something has. been done which has reduced the value. of the property, it will he .leased back "to him at a r'educed ·rental. He is also told that if, in a couple of years, he wants to repurchase the land, it will be sold to him at the reduced valuation. 1 do not think anyone can say that what is done is unfair. It is because of this that the Treasury think~ that at this' particular time the provisions are as generous as possible.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 to. 5.

Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water Supply) .-Mr. Chairman, 1 wished to ask honorable members to negative clause 5, and 1 notified you that 1 wanted to speak on that clause.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Christie).-1 will recommit clause 5.

Mr. MOSS (Leader of the Country Party) .-On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, you have already declared the clause carried and you have no right to recommit the clause.

Mr .. DARCY.-On the point of order, Mr. Chairman, 1 point out that I notified the Clerk, and 1 thought 1 had notified you, Sir. 1 also indi<;ated, during the discussion on the Bill, that 1 wished clause 5 to be deleted. 1 think I am entitled to be heard.

The CHAIRMAN.-On the point of order, 1 am bound to say that I put the motion that clause 5 be agreed to and declared . it carried. There was no dissent on the clause until I had said, "The Ayes have it."

I must uphold the point of order. The· Minister will have to find· other means of doing what he wants. The point of order was well taken. ·1 put the motion and without hearing any. dissent, I declared it carried.

Mr.. DARCY.-I was under the impression that I was rising at the time, Sir.'

Mr. WILTSHIRE (Mulgrave).On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, it is probable that you did'nof notice the Minister was ralready on his feet. .

The CHAIRMAN.-I have given my ruling, and there can be no further point of order.

. The remaining clauses were agreed to.

-' The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, the report was adopted, and the Bill was read a third time.

Mr. DARCY (Minister of Water Supply) .-1 move-

That clause 5 be omitted.

The sitting was suspended at 6.38 p.m., until 8.5 p.m.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).Prior to the suspension of the sitting for dinner, the Minister of Water Supply invited honorable members to vote for the deletion of clause 5. In his explanatory second-reading speech, the honorable gentleman mentioned that provision was being made to enable the interest-free advance to be used for the purchase of lands required for proposed works. This would be. an extension of the provision contained in the principal Act in relation to the use of the interest-free advance for the purpose of carrying out initial surveys.

It would appear that the Minister had in mind that sewerage authorities should be permitted to use some of these funds for the acquisition of land. Clause 5, as it appears in the Bill, 'proposes -an . amendment to

1128 Sewerage Districts [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) BiU.

section 109 of the principal Act so that a sewerage authority will be enabled to use funds, which it obtains from the disposal of property, equipment or buildings that it no longer requires, to implement the general provisions contained in section 120. After studying the Act, I am of the opinion that to bring about the amendment which the Minister desires, section 120 would require amendment. Paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of section 120 provides inter alia-

After proposals for new works or improvements to existing works to be constructed by a Sewerage Authority have been approved by the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission, temporary advances may be made by the Treasurer of Victoria to such Sewerage Authority to recoup the expense incurred in making preliminary investigations in respect of and to meet the cost of surveys and preparation of plans and specifications for the proposed works .... This would have been the appropriate place in which to insert an amendment to extend the scope of the use of this fund. Perhaps an appropriate amendment would be the insertion of the words "and for the purchase of any lands required for treatment works and disposal works." The amendment contained in clause 5 would then make the appropriate change in section 1 09 in accordance with the amended section 120.

Members of the Opposition believe that this is a situation which the Government has created, although the Minister of Water Supply, in a sincere desire to improve the legislation, went ahead and prepared the amendment which he mentioned in his second-reading speech. At this stage, the Government, in an attempt to extricate itself from the schemozzle that has been created over this legislation, wants to remove clause 5 before the Bill has passed through this House. This is a classic example of the Government's incompetence.

Mr. WHEELER.-You have said that half a dozen times.

Mr. WILTON.-I intend to repeat it. No better example than this Bill could be found of the Government's

lazy, incompetent attitude towards administering the" affair:s of this State. Members of the Opposition are justified in challenging the Government's sincerity. Incompetence is bad enough, but when it is accompanied by insincerity it is even worse, and that is the existing situation in regard to this Bill. The dilemma from which the Minister is now trying to extricate himself was created not by the Minister but by the Treasurer. It is evident that the Minister desired to improve the legislation but that the Treasurer said, "You are not going to do that." The Treasurer is ruling the Cabinet.

Mr. DARCY.-How do you get on with your banker?

Mr. WILl'ON .-Does the Minister expect members of the Opposition to accept this situation? A person with any business ability would have had the measure thought out and thoroughly discussed before the drafting stage was reached. The future of this State is in jeopardy whilst it remains under the control of this Government. One may' well ask what will be the future of some poor individual who finds that he is going to lose his property. Such situations are inevitable because as the State progresses-despite the Government and through the ingenuity of the people-new sewerage authorities will come into existence and will have to purchase land. The individuals whose land will be required are going to be subjected to delays while the Treasurer makes up his mind what he is going to do.

When the Bill was in Committee, the Minister made an attempt to get himself out of this difficult situation by saying that, if a case were presented, the Treasurer might give it favourable consideration. What about the work involved? The individual would have to go through the rigmarole of approaching the Minister and of perhaps " getting the runaround" before the Treasurer

Sewerage Districts [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Amendment) BiU. 1129

finally made up his mind. No responsibility is placed on the Treasurer, but the land owner is entirely dependent on the honorable gentleman's generosity. If this State is as bankrupt as the Deputy Premier claimed, one can imagine that in future transactions involving the acquisition of land the landowner will find it difficu1t to convince the Treasurer that he should receive compensation immediately.

The Government should show its sincerity by continuing to implement the principles embodied in the remarks of the Minister of Water Supply when he said that provision was to be made for an interest-free loan to be granted for and the money to be used to complete acquisition proceedings which the sewerage authority is engaged in. If the Government is genuine in its' desire to do this, it should be prepared to permit the necessary amendments to be inserted in the Bill. If that were done, it would not be necessary to subject this House to the spectacle of the Minister moving for the omission of a clause from the Bill. This is just another example of the Government's inefficiency, incompetence and complete disregard for the rights of individuals who may be involved in future acquisitions.

Mr. STIRLING (Swan Hill).-I think honorable members generally realize that great difficulties are associated, with the establishment of a new sewerage authority, and if there is the possibility of the Government assisting such an authority every possible step should be taken towards that end. Doubtless, the Minister was at one stage of that opinion, and it was proposed to create a procedure that would make it easier for a new authority to establish itself. 1 should like to know whether the Minister will assure members that he will give fUrther consideration to what is proposed in the Bill and undertake to bring in amending legislation if there is a need for it.

Mr. STONEHAM (Leader of the Opposition) .-1 should have thought this was the appropriate time for the Minister to make an explanation of the most extraordinary situation which has developed. 1 t is obvious that the Minister is unable to convince the House why clause 5 should be deleted from the Bill. If he had some logical reason for its deletion he would have made an explanation. The Minister's second-reading speech contains a deliberately false statement, and anyone who makes a false statement in a prospectus, is guilty of an offence. The Minister's secondreading speech was a prospectus for a Bill, and it contained a false statement.

How much is really involved in the proposal that was rejected by the Treasurer? Apparently what the Deputy Premier said a few months ago about the State being bankrupt is quite correct, as the Government cannot afford to give a newly-formed sewerage authority a temporary advance to enable it to acquire land. The authority is entitled to a temporary advance to carry out surveys and prepare plans and specifications. The State Rivers and Water Supply Commission, which has had long experience in setting up sewerage authorities, made a recommendation to the Minister of Water Supply, who agreed to it and recommended it to Cabinet. Cabinet then approved that such a step should be taken. If Cabinet approval had not been obtained, the proposal would not have been contained in the Bill. Will any Minister deny that that is what has happened?

Mr. DARCy.-A mistake was made in a Bill when a Labor Party formed a Government.

Mr. STONEHAM.-I am talking about this Bill.

Mr. DARCY.-This is not the first time an error has occurred; mistakes happened when the Labor Government was in office.

1130 Sewerag~ Dlstrict.~, : [ASSEMBLY. ]

.. Mr.· STONEHAM.-That has nothing to do with the Bill before the House. If this were an isolated instance, it could be passed ·off as .·a joke or a comic incident, but last 'night the M.inister of Immigration did not .know the first thing about the Bill he was . handling. Similar events occur every week in this Parli~ment. In his second-reading speech, the -Minister said- . ';' Provision is also being made to enable the interest-free advance to be used for the purchase of lands required for the proposed works. This will enable a new sewerage authority, immediately after its constitution, and before it has funds of its own available, to complete the purchase of lands required for treatment and disposal works. The landowner concerned will not be left for twelve months or more, as he sometimes is at present-

as he always is at present-in a state of uncertainty regarding his future.

Apparently the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission convinced the Minister that this step should be taken and the Minister convinced Cabinet of its merits. However, the Treasurer drew a red line through it, and the Government is so incompetently administering this State that the necessary adjustments cannot be ·made. Then the Minister of Water Supply made a false statement to the House, whether wittingly or unwittingly. Perhaps the Treasurer told the honorable gentleman that the Government could not afford to do what was proposed, but I point out that only a few hundred dollars a year in interest would be involved. That is the amount that the Government would lose if an interest-free loan were made available.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-Why is the Leader of the Opposition covering up for the honorable member for Broadmeadows?

Mr. STONEHAM.-It is obvious that no member on the Government side of' the Chamber is prepared to cover up for the Minister of Water Supply. He has been left like a shag

on a rock. I support the predict~.on of the honorable member for. Broadmeadows that the time is not far distant when there will be a .'cQmpetent Govern,nent in. this State. ,. I give an assurance that when tpat happens the . first water amen4ing Bill introduced will contain the provision referred to by the Ministe~ ~

Mr. MOSS (Leader ot the Country Party) .-1 should have thought the Minister of Water Supply would make an explanation of the position that. ha~ developed, and I am disappointed that he has not done so ... :I am . also disappointerl: that· the Minister of Labour and Industry. who has been studying the situation .. ·t~ determine what· it means has; not made a 'statement to. the Hous~. Honorable members have been informe'd that there is :nothing' in clause 5 and the Minister proposes to take nothing ·away. So, he will be taking nothing from . nothing .. and that leaves nothing. .

The honorable member for Swan Hill made the valuable suggestion that-what was proposed in the sec.ond~ reading speech should be followed up. He explained that the purpose of what was proposed was to facilitate the establishment of new sewerage authorities by granting them interest-free loans with which to purchase land. It is obvious that all that is required to give effect to that important principle is for the Treasury to pay the interest for an interim period until it is abso~bed in the general finances of the authority.

If the Minister of Water Supply is interested' in this principle, he should indiCate to the House whether or not he believes the position should be reviewed. Perhaps he could also indica te whether or not it is the in .. tention of the Government to r.eview it. I am at. loss to understand what has happened, in view of the fact that. there has been a recommenda:tion by the State Rivers. and W~ter

Limitation of Actions [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Notice of Action) Bill. 1131

Supply Commission and a Cabinet decision on it. The Minister has stated that the clause had to be taken out on the recommendation of the Treasurer. My understanding of the way in which Cabinet works-it ~s ,a long time since I have been t~ere--

Mr. HOLDEN .-It will be a long time before you get there again.

. Mr. MOSS.---The screamers have never been there and are never likely to be there. 'At least I did have the experience of serving a term as a member of a 'Cabinet. At that time, a Minister would receive a recommendation from his Department or, if the matter. were one of Government policy, it would be initiated ,in Cabinet and be referred to 'the relevant Department for a recommendation on which the G<;>vernment could "hang its hat". After the implementing Bill had been prepared, it would be examined by Cabinet before being submitted to Parliament.

, This is an extraordinary, way in which to manage the "affairs of government in Victoria. ' The Minister received a good deal of praise for the Bill-inadvertently as it turns out~because the principle he enunciated contained a good deal of merit. I hope that before the debate is concluded the honorable gentleman will explain what he proposes to do about the matter. If I were in his position, I ,would not accept dictation from the Treasurer in this respect. If a principle had been adopted by Cabine,t, and I were' in charge of a Bill to implement it, I would regard it as a lame excuse that I could not give effect to it because someone else had, decided that it should be deleted f~om my Bill. I do, not think the position is satisfactory or fair.

:the motion was 'agreed to.

"It was ordered that the Bill be transmitted to the Council.

LIMITATION OF ACTIONS (NOTICE OF· ACTION) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from October 11) on the motion of Mr. Wilcox (Minister of Labour and Industry) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -This is an important piece of legislation for those who are interested in its ,subject-matter. The heart of the Bill is clause 2, which provides that section 34 of the Limitation of Actions Act 1958 shall be repealed. This matter has a long history with which perhaps no one is more familiar than the AttorneyGeneral. The section which it is proposed to repeal provides', inter alia.~

Notwithstanding anything in this A<;t no action shall be brought against any person for any act done in pursuance or execution or intended execution of any Act of Parliament or any public duty or authority or in respect of any alleged neglect or default in the execution of any such Act duty or authority unless the prospective plaintiff gives to the prospective defendant, not more'than six months after the cause of action accrues, notice in writing giving reasonable information of the circumstances upon which the proposed action will be based and his name and address and that of his solicitor or agent (if any).

The section goes on to make a number of other provisions, but the substantive one is the sub-section that I read. The side note to the section reads,' "Notice before action against public authority." This gives one the impression that the section relates only to a public ~uthority, but I point out that the following passage appears in section-

No action shall be brought against any person for any act done in 'pursuance or execution or, intended execution of any Act of Parliament or of any public duty or authority ....

When the Bill first became before the House, I notified a prominent firm of solicitors, Messrs., Slater, and Gordon, of the proposed repeal of section 34 of the Limitations of Actions Act, and forwarded them a copy of the Minister's ,second-reading

1132 Limitation of Actions [ASSEMBLY.] (Notice of Action) Bill.

speech. I think their views would be of interest to the House; they are as follows:-

What is said about the attitude of the statutory authorities towards applications made to waive the time limit in section 34 is generally. true and in my opinion the amendment is a just one.

It is also within my knowledge that this section created difficulties because although the sidenote in the Act speaks of public authorities and it is said that English legal authorities support the proposition that the section applies only to public authorities, the words of the section speak of statutory duties, and it has always been in my mind that an individual who has failed to comply with a statutory duty such as an obligation placed on him under the Labour and Industry Act could plead that he was entitled to the benefit of the section, that is, to have six months' notice of action. In fact in a case in which we sued some railways detectives for false arrest an obiter opinion was expressed by the present Chief Justice in interlocutory proceedings that the railways detectives were entitled to the protection of the section.

That indicates that the section had a more drastic effect than most of us thought at the time it was passed by this Parliament. For the benefit and information of the Attorney-General, I should like to cite the following extract from the platform of the Australian Labor Party, which I helped to prepare--

Inequality between Crown and Subject before Courts. Conference recommends that:

(i) Section 34 of the Limitation of Actions Act 1958, be repealed and the distinction between public authorities and the private citizen in litigation be thereby ended;

I do not for a moment suggest that the Attorney-General got his ideas from that source!

This type of provIsion has always been a nightmare to the legal profession. Before section 34 of the principal Act was enacted, every Act creating a public authority contained some provision about notice of action. For example, under the Railway Act it was necessary to give six months' notice of action of intended proceedings and to set out fully all the acts of negligence on which one proposed to rely.

Mr. Turnbull.

When the action was brought, one was confined to the various allegations made in the notice. I thmk both the Local Government Act and the Country Roads Act provided that notice of action must be given within one month. Of course, there was a real reason for this. Using the Railway Department as an example, a passenger might injure his finger by having it caught in a lock of a door. The Department has many doors and many locks. If the matter was not brought to the attention of the Department until three years after the occurrence, it might have some diffiGulty in tracing the history of the lock concerned to see whether it had been repaired' or its condition had in fact been brought under notice.

To-day, there are a number of l~rge corporations which support the Government. Their organizations are comparable in size with the Railway Department. The idea behind the proposal in the Bill is to put public authorities on the same footing as trading corporations, thus providing that there will be no inequality between the Crown and subject before the courts.

From time to time, this matter has been considered by the Statute Law Revision Committee, and the secondreading speech made by the Minister of Labour and Industry on behalf of the Attorney-General contained the substance of a report which was drawn up by the late Trevor Oldham, a leading member of this institution. I shall not trace the history of the matter before the Statute Law Revision Committee, but point out that, whereas in its last three or four reports a minority of the committee was in favour of the repeal of section 34, eventually unanimity in favour of its repeal arose amongst the members of the committee. For example, section 34 of the Limitation of Actions Act was considered by the Statute Law Revision Committee in 1959 at the request of the Attorney-General and' on behalf of a number of public authorities.

National Gallery of [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Victoria Bill. 1133

The opinion expressed by the committee was that the arguments advanced from time to time in favour of the provision requiring prior notice of claim to be served on public authorities were not sufficiently strong to justify this exception to the general principle enunciated in sub-section (1) of section 32 of the Act. Eventually, the view of the committee recommended itself to the AttorneyGeneral and, to the delight and pleasure of members ·of the legal profession, section 34 of the Limitation of Actions Act 1958 will now disappear; the Crown will be in precisely the same position as an ordinary member of the community.

The Labor Party commends this Bill. The proposals contained therein are part of its policy. I shall not go so far as to accuse the AttorneyGeneral of taking it from this policy, but on this occasion we both agree.




The House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill.

Discussion was resumed of clause 5, providing, inter alia-

(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall be a Council to be called the II National Gallery Council of Victoria."

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I understand that the Government was criticized last week because the proposed amendments which had been circulated had not been explained to members of the Opposition and of the Country Party. I regret this occurrence. However, I assure members of the Committee that the first two amendments were suggested to the Government by the trustees. The other amendments were corrections of some minor problems which arose over the Bill.

Session 1966.-39

I move-That, in sub-clause ( 1) , the words

II National Gallery Council" be omitted with the view of inserting the words II Council of Trustees of the National Gallery ".

As they had been regarded as trustees for many years, the trustees thought there might be misunderstanding in the community if they were no longer called by that name. In accordance with the policy' adopted for the Library Council, the Government felt that it should raise the status of the trustees to a council, and it has accepted the view that both titles should be combined.

Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-I appreciate the Chief Secretary's affability, and I readily accept his assurance that no offence was meant towards the Opposition. When I made my second-reading speech, I was not aware that any amendments were proposed, and, after I had expressed the Opposition's approval of the Bill, the bland intimation by the Minister of Public Works was surprIsmg and somewhat embarrassing, and even now it still mystifies me.

Anxious as I am to facilitate the passage of the Bill, the amendment submitted by the Chief Secretary seems to run counter to paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 20 which pro-vide that-

(a) The trustees of the National Gallery of Victoria shall go out of office;

(b) the Council shall become and be the successor in law of the said trustees.

I suggest that clause 5 makes adequate provision for the aim of the trustees. I notice that it is proposed to omit the word "trustees" in other clauses, which I think is very proper and I hope these umendments will benefit the council. The Chief Secretary has referred to the Library Council but this body has not been known as the Library Trustees. However, I can only suppose that the trustees have an interest

1134 National Gallery of [ASSEMBL Y.] Victoria Bill.

in the amendment, and in those circumstances I have no desire to delay .the passage of the Bill.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-Like the honorable member for Albert ,Park, I appreciate the gesture of the Chief Secretary, but, like him, I fail to see how this proposed amendment to clause 5 ties in with clause 20. The National Gallery Council of Victoria is referred to in the concluding line of paragraph (1) of clause 20. How does that tie up with the "Council of the Trustees of the National Gallery"? It is a matter of clarification, as was the point raised by the honorable member for Albert Park.

The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted.

Clause 6 (Composition of the Council) .

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-As I said in my second-reading speech, the Country Party feels that one representative, even though it may be the extremely able Mr. Richie, is not enough representation of country interests. There is a rising tide of interest in art in our country areas and, without delaying the Bill, I ask the Chief Secretary to consider, before the Bill is dealt with in another place, increasing the country representation to at least two-the Country Party would prefer three. Perhaps the additional member could be one of the five mentioned in subparagraph (e) of sub-clause (1) of clause 6.

I should like to know why the age of 72 was selected in sub-clause (3). What are the ages of the present trustees? Can the Chief Secretary explain the significance of that provision? I do not suggest that it is a bad one-there are probably good reasons for it-but why has the age of 72 years been chosen?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The age of 72 was chosen because that is the retiring age of a Supreme Court Judge. That provision was introduced, I think, by the honorable

member for Benambra when he was Attorney-General, and I must say that it has worked very satisfactorily.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Also company directors.

Mr. RYLAH.-I think the retiring age for company directors is 70. The Government tried to introduce a retiring age of 72 years, but the opposition of the honorable member for Brunswick West resulted in providing for retirement at the age of 70. This age is accepted for people in academic and high positions in this State. I hope it will never be applied to members of Parliament, but this is always possible.

Mr. WHITING.-The retiring age for honorary justices is also 72 years.

Mr. RYLAH.-I am not sure, but I think the retiring age there is 70. I could not give accurate information to the Committee concerning the ages of the present trustees, but I know that two are near the age of 72 years-Sir Arthur Smithers and Dr. Cox, who are very valuable members of the trustees-and the Government felt that when the new council is constituted their services should be retained at least during the changeover period. That is why the Government has decided that this provision shall not apply to the existing trustees.

Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).Acceptance of the clause presents no difficulties to the Opposition. I flatter myself that I had seen the position referred to and felt that it would prove of value. The honorable member for Benambra made reference last night to Mr. Richie being the holder of a wine licence at Ballarat. That being so, he ought to remember the words of Helaire Belloc-

But Catholic men that live upon wiDe Are deep in the water, and frank, and fine.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-I do not think the Chief Secretary explained the question relating to the reconciliation of the tenn of


office of the council of the trustees of the National Galley. I also wish to refer to the age of appointment to the council. Both Sir Arthur Smithers and Dr. Cox have made valuable contributions to the Trust, particularly Dr. Cox who has unique knowledge of Chinese· ceramics. Could the Chief Secretary indicate whether there is any possibility of an extension of perhaps one or two years being granted to men of outstanding ability, such as Dr. Cox and Sir Arthur Smithers both of whom would be very difficult to replace? I do not know anyone in Victoria, or in Australia, with anything like the knowledge of Chinese ceramics possessed by Dr. Cox.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I agree with the view expressed by the honorable member for Benambra. The Government has in mind what he has suggested, but, of course, that depends on the wishes of Dr. Cox and Sir Arthur Smithers. As to the other point raised by the honorable member for Benambra, I think he is " right on the ball," and I propose to move an amendment to clause 20 to cover the position.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).I appreciate the co-operation of the Chief Secretary, but I should like to ask a further question. It it possible for the Government, on a member of the Trust attaining the age 72 years, to extend his term for a year, two years or three years? I do not think this State can afford to lose Dr. Cox.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I should think that point is abundantly clear. That is the purpose of subclause (4) of clause 6.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 7 and 8.

Clause 9 (Quorum).

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).When I was a trustee of the National Gallery, at times considerable difficulty was experienced in obtaining a quorum. Many of the trustees held

high positions and went overseas on Government or private business. I ask the Chief Secretary to give this matter some thought and perhaps confer with Dr. Cox to ascertain whether he feels that, in view of the widespread activities of the trustees, the provision relating to the quorum of the council is adequate.


Clause 10 (Travelling expenses).

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-Could the Chief Secretary inform me what constitutes legitimate travelling expenses by the trustees? Would a trip to England or to the Art Gallery in Sydney, or to Adelaide be permissible?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).The regulations relating to travelling expenses are fairly well established. Honorable members know generally the rate of expenses and, of course, any regulations prescribed are probably subject to the approval of the Subordinate Legislation Committee. If they are not subject to the approval of that committee, they come under very close scrutiny by it. Anyone who prescribed travelling expenses for trustees to go to England would certainly deserve the fate that would befall them.


Clause 11 (Council first constituted) .

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).Sub-clause (2) provides-

The Council shall be deemed to have been duly constituted on the day on which it holds its first meeting.

I am not clear whether that meeting has taken place, or when it will take place.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).A meeting cannot take place until the Act is proclaimed and the proper steps taken to appoint the initial members.


1136 National Gallery of [ASSEMBLY.] Victoria Bill.

Clause 12 (Director secretary and staff.)

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-Is it intended to appoint Mr. Eric Westbrook as Director of the National Gallery, or will the opportunity be taken to appoint a new Director?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I could not answer that question because the appointment will be subject to the Public Service Act. However, I should have thought it certain that Mr. Westbrook would be appointed as Director.


Clause 13 (Functions of the Council.)

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-This clause provides, inter alia-

The functions of the Council shall be

(c) To make material within the State collection available to persons, Departments and institutions in such manner and subject to such conditions as the Council determines with a view to the most advantageous use of the State collection.

What exactly is meant by " material "? Furthermore, how does that provision fit in with the condition in the amendment to be proposed to clause 14 that the Governor in Council shall not approve the sale exchange or disposal of any works of art in the State collection unless he is satisfied as to certain conditions. Does " material" mean pictures, or objects d'art, or statuary or picture frames? What exactly is meant by that term?

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).There is a simple answer to this question. The honorable member for Benambra has been a trustee of the National Gallery, and the material under his care was the whole of the collection. The provision to which he referred is contained in the existing legislation. I believe there is no inconstistency in the provisions, because sub-clause (1) of clause 14 contains the words "exchange sell lease or dispose" whereas paragraph (c) of clause 13 deals with

the question of material being made available. Of course, if it is made available, it is not sold, exchanged or disposed of.

Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-I find no trouble in regard to the question raised by the honorable member for Benambra. In March last, the House agreed to certain provisions being inserted in the legislation.


Clause 14, providing, inter alia(1) Subject to sub-section (2) and

with the approval of the Governor in Council the Council may exchange sell lease or dispose of any property vested in it by or under this Act.

(3) In addition to dny other method of donation or gift which the Council is entitled to accept, the Council may accept a donation or gift of, or of cash for the purchase of, ,any picture work of art or exhibit conditional on such picture work of art or exhibit-

(a) remaining in the custody of the donor during his lifetime or for any other period agreed upon between the donor and the trustee; and

(b) being handed over by the donor to the Council for the purposes of exhibition or study whenever and for such period as the trustees may in writing so request.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I move-

That the following sub-section be inserted to follow sub-section (1):-

"( ) The Governor in Council shall not approve the sale exchange or disposal of any works of art in the State collection unless he is satisfied that a resolution of the Council in favour thereof has stood unrevoked for a period of not less than ten years and been confirmed by resolution of the Council after the expiration of that period."

This amendment is being submitted at the request of the trustees, and I think there are good reasons for it. Probably if I said that art is like women's fashions--popular to-day and unpopular to-morrow-some people would say that I was stretching the long bow. However, I think it is fair to say that there are periods when certain art is popular and is regarded as being valuable when other art is regarded as being not so valuable or,


in fact, can be disposed of. The trustees have requested this amendment, which I suppose in a way is a safeguard on their own decisions.

Mr. STONEHAM.-I take it that no works of art have been disposed of in the past when no such provision existed.

Mr. RYLAH.-I do not think the trustees had any power to dispose of them in the past. As the honorable member for Albert Park mentioned, the power to dispose of such works was introduc-ed only within the past twelve months. The trustees feel, after giving the matter full consideration, that there should be some protecting period, that even if they decided to-day to dispose of some work of art which they did not regard as valuable or as having historical value a protecting period should exist before the Governor in Council should be asked to approve of that disposal.

Various views have been advanced as to what that period should be. Some trustees have suggested 25 years and others five years. Having regard to observations that have been made and what has taken place in the field of art, the Government considered that ten years would be a reasonable period. It is probably fair to say that however the Governor in Council was constituted it would not be in a position to assess the decision of the trustees, which could be made having regard to the prevailing climate. The Government has submitted this amendment believing that the collective wisdo.m of the trustees should be accepted, and I commend it to the House.

Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-For the most part, the explanation given by the Chief Secretary is satisfactory. It occurred to me that the line of Longfellow-

Art is long and time is fleeting

has been reversed by the Minister, because art is to be fleeting and the time is to be long. I presume the

Government would not have brought this amendment forward unless it· had some excellent reason for doing so. Further, the trustees will probably act on the advice of the Director, who is the Chief Executive Officer. I think that perhaps the Gallery has been cluttered up with worthless things, but I very much doubt whether because of a change in values they should be disposed of. That is probably something that would concern a dealer rather than an art critic because art reflects the history and mental climate of the time. However, I have confidence that the professional officers will look after the issue. I have never had a wish to interfere with the activities of the professional or technical officers.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-I think the amendment, which refers specifically to a period of ten years, is wise. However, I am not quite clear on the meaning of the word " disposal " in this amendment, particularly having regard to subclause (4) of this clause, which provides that the council may lend works of art vested in or under the management or control of the council to such persons or for such purposes as it thinks fit. I find it difficult to "tie in" the word "disposal" with this sub-clause. I should like to know whether the ten-year cooling-off period to which the amendment refers applies to this sub-clause. If it does not apply, the council could easily get around the amendment. I should like the Chief Secretary to explain the position.

Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).I have already made it abundantly clear that if sub-clause (4) were deleted from this clause, it would not be possible for the National Gallery to lend works of art to the Corryong art. show, the Corryong art school. or to some other similar body. If the honorable member for Benambra is opposed to works of art being lent to such organizations, I shall be prepared to move for the omission of

1138 Land Tax [ASSEMBLY.] (Rates) Bill.

the sub-clause in question. However, , in the interests of Victoria, I believe the request of the trustees, that. they should have power to lend works of art, should be adopted.

Mr. SUTToN.-We agreed to that last night.

Mr. RYLAH.-That is so, but apparently the honorable member for Benambra is not happy with it. I shall be prepared to support the deletion of the sub-clause if it is the wish of the honorable member for Benambra.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-The Chief Secretary has spoken somewhat hastily, because at no time did I express opposition to this subclause. I was simply seeking information. I do not wish to make representations to the National Gallery for a loan of paintings, as was done some months ago, and then be told that such action is blocked by this

provision. If the Chief Secretary would clarify the point, I should ·be grateful. At no time, however, did I express opposition to this clause.

The amendment was agreed to, as were verbal amendments, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 15 to 19.

Clause 20 was verbally amended and, as amended, adopted.

The schedule was verbally amended and, as amended, adopted.

The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages.

LAND TAX (RATES) BILL. The House went into Committee

of Ways and Means.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 move-

That subject to the Land Tax Act 1958 and legislation proposed to be enacted and to come into operation on the 1st day of January, 1967, there shall in the case of each owner of land be charged evied collected and paid for the use of Her Majesty in aid of the Consolidated Revenue for the year oommencing on the 1st day of January, 1967, and ending on the 31st day of December, 1967, a duty of land tax upon land as provided in the Tables appended hereto:

Provided that the minimum amount of tax payable for the said year by any taxpayer assessed under the Principal Act shall be 31.00.

TABLE A.

Where the Amount of the Taxable Value of Land or Lands Used for Primary Production as Assessed The Duty of Land Tax Shall Be-

under the I..and Tax Act 1958-

Does not exceed $30,000 ·4167 cents for each $1 of the taxable value

Exceeds $30,000 but does not exceed $40,000 .. $125 plus . 625 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $30,000

Exceeds 340,000 but does not exceed $50,000 .. $187.50 plus . 8333 cents for each 31 of the taxable value in excess of $40,000

Exceeds $50,000 but does not exceed $60,000 .. $270.83 plus ·9375 cents for each 81 of the taxable value in excess of $50,000

Exceeds $60,000 but does not exceed $70,000 .. $364.58 plus 1· 0417 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $60,000

Exceeds $70,000 but does not exceed $80,000 ., $468.75 plus 1·1458 cents for each 31 of the taxable value in excess of $70,000

Exceeds $80,000 but does not exceed $90,000 .. $583.33 plus 1· 25 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $80,000

Exceeds $90,000 but does not exceed $100,000 .. $708.33 plus 1.4583 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $90,000

Exceeds $100,000 but does not exceed $140,000.. $854.17 plus 1·6667 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $100,000

Exceeds $1.40,000 $1,520.83 plus 1·875 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $140,000

Tax on the taxable value of land or lands used for primary production shall be calculated at the average rate that would have been applicable had the combined taxable value been the taxable value of the land or land used for primary production.

Land Tax [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Rates) Bill. 1139

TABLE B.

Where ~he Amount of the Taxable Value of Land or Lands Used for other Purposes as Assessed

under the J..and Tax Act 1958-

Does not exceed $17,500

Exceeds $17,500 but does not exceed $20,000








Exceeds $90,000 but does not exceed $100,000 ..






Exceeds $150,000 but does'not exceed $160,000


Exceeds $170,000

The Duty of Land Tax Shall Be-

·4167 cents for each $1 of the taxable value

$72.92 plus ·625 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $17,500

$88.54 plus . 8333 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $20,000

$171. 88 plus ·9375 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $30,000

$265.62 plus 1 . 0417 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $40,000

$369.79 plus 1· 25 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $50,000

$494.79 plus 1· 4583 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $60,000

$640.62 plus 1· 5625 cents for each $1. of the taxable value in excess of $70,000

$796.88 plus 1 . 6667 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $80,000

$963.54 plus 1·875 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in ~xcess of $90,000

$1,151.04 plus 1·9792 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $100,000




$2,036.46 plus 2· 6042 cents for each $1 of the taxable value in excess of $140,000




Tax on the taxable value of land or lands used for other purposes shall be calculated at the average rate that would have been applicable had the combined taxable value been the taxable value of the land or mnds used for other purposes:

Provided that where the owner of land not being land used for industrial purposes is an absentee the duty of land tax provided in the foregoing provisions of Table B shall be increased by twenty per centum and for purposes of this proviso-

(a) "Absentee" means a person who does not reside in Australia and includes a person who has been absent from Australia for at least twelve months immediately prior to the time when the ownership of his land for the purposes of the Principal Act is determined unless he satisfies the Commissioner that he resides in Australia, but does not include a public officer of the Commonwealth or the State who is absent in the performance of his duties;

(b) If at least three-fifths of the entire beneficial interest in any land is owned by absentees or if (where the land is owned by a body corporate) at least three-fifths of the issued share capital of that body corporate is held by absentees, that land shall be deemed to be wholly owned by absentees.

The motion was agreed to, and the resolution was reported to the House and adopted.

Leave was given to Sir Henry Bolte (Premier and Treasurer) and Mr. Rylah (Chief Secretary) to bring in a Bill to carry out the resolution.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) brought in a Bill relating to the assessment of land tax, to declare the rates of land tax for the year ending 31st December, 1967, and for other purposes, and moved that it be read a first time.

The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read a first time.

1140 Evidence (Foreign [ASSEMBLY.] Tribunals) Bill.

EVIDENCE (FOREIGN TRIBUNALS) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 28) on the motion of Mr. Wilcox (Minister of Labour and Industry) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -This short Bill was adequately explained by the Minister of Labour and Industry in his second-reading speech, as reported at page 418 of Hansard of 28th September of this year. The purpose of the Bill is to enable officers of a foreign embassy to administer the oath for evidence given in this State in relation to a foreign matter. Very often litigation or legal problems arise in a foreign country which may require the evidence of some resident here. The Bill authorizes a member of the embassy staff to receive that evidence, to witness it in the usual. way and to return it to the country concerned to be used as evidence. For once, in granting this power, this Government is making international progress.

Like all legislation here and elsewhere, a precedent is usually created in some country, and the provisions of new section lIlA, as c.ontained in clause 2, are similar to those contained in the English Act. As Great Britain is much closer to ~urope than is Australia, it is obvious that evidentiary provisions of this nature should be incorporated in the laws of Great Britain. Clause 4 amends section 120 of the principal Act and adds any professional officer or classified teacher in the Teaching Service to the list of persons capable of taking declarations. An inspector in the Teaching Service is required to move about the State in the conduct of his duties, and he may be of service to the community in taking statutory declarations. Perhaps this matter has been directed to the attention. of the Attorney-General by the Minister of Education.

Clause 3 proposes the repeal of section 116 of the Evidence Act. As the Minister of Labour and Industry

stated, affidavits, which are evidence, are required to be taken before a particular person. These officers are specially selected and are appointed by the Chief Justice or any Justice of the Supreme Court to become a Commissioner of the Supreme Court for taking affidavits. The persons so selected are usually senior officers of the Public Service, the Registrar of the Supreme Court, the Prothonotary of the Supreme Court and officers of the Probate Office. A fee of Is. 6d. was formerly charged for witnessing an affidavit, but I do not know whether that has risen with the cost of living.

Mr. WILCOX.-It has.

Mr. TURNBULL.-A fee of 6d. or 1 s. was also charged for marking an exhibit. Associates of Supreme Court Judges are also commissioners.

Mr. JONA.-It was big business in Queen -street.

Mr. TURNBULL.-The motivating force behind the recommendation of the Law Institute was the inconvenience to solicitors of having to take clients to some other office. As the honorable member for Hawthorn interjected, it was big business in Queen-street. It became an established practice for a retired public servant, a man of some standing in the community, to become known in legal circles as being easily available to go to the office of a solicitor to swear an affidavit or to mark an exhibit. He was then paid his fee. It was a service to the legal community, and no one objected to it.

It may be asked why the affidavit was not sworn before the solicitor himself or before some member of the firm who was a commissioner. The Evidence Act provides that the affidavit shall not be taken before the solicitor who drew it or any member of his staff. The purpose of this provision is to maintain some judicial position. It might not be the best of affidavits, but the client could say, "It has been

Eviden~ (Foreign [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Tribunals) Bill. 1141

drawn by my solicitor and I will sign it". An independent solicitor might readily detect some defects. I believe the principle is good. Perhaps I am a little old fashioned and the people who make these recommendations to the Law Institute are more up to date. I still believe there is much merit in section 116. The signature is witnessed only in the same manner as honorable members may witness other documents.

Mr. WILCox.-That is all a commissioner does.

Mr. TURNBULL.-The commissioner puts the person on oath.

Mr. WILcox.-He does not inquire into what is stated.

Mr. TURNBULL.-If a commissioner saw something irregular on the face of the document, he would not administer the oath. There is justification for the existing rule. It is a question of expediency. The Law Institute has recommended this matter, and the Attorney-General has agreed with it. I hope the fears I have expressed will be quite wrong, and that the proposed amendment will facilitate the business of solicitors. I agree that it may save a tremendous amount of time, and time costs money in a solicitor's office as in any other office. My party does not oppose the Bill, and I hope it will be as effective as the Attorney-General wishes.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).There is some good stuff in this small Bill, but the fact that it is so small and that three small matters have been dragged into it is indicative of the way in which this tired, weary and discredited Government has to go to every corner and scrape the bottom of the barrel to justify its remaining on the Ministerial bench. The days of the Bolte Government are numbered. This Bill, like Caesar's Gaul, contains three parts. First, there is a question of our desire to help foreign diplomatic and consular services which

Session 1966.-40

wish to administer oaths in Australia for use in proceedings in their own countries. The Minister informed honorable members that this matter had been discussed for some time and that, as a result of a recent meeting of the Standing Committee of Attorneys-General, endeavours were being made to have legislation along the lines of a 1963 English enactment introduced in each State. However, as the honorable member for Brunswick West pointed out, the circumstances operating in Australia are different from those in England where foreign countries are practically only minutes away. Whether this measure is really necessary or is just dragged in to try to bolster up this collapsing Government, I do not know. I cannot see that we are faced with anything like the dynamic needs that exist in England where, although it has been close to foreign countries throughout its history, action of this type was taken only in 1963.

During the Committee stage, I should like the Minister to inform honorable members whether Victoria is the only State to introduce this provision, and whether diplomatic and consular services will have to bring people to their Victorian offices in order to administer oaths to them.

My second point concerns section 116 of the Evidence Act 1958. I share the doubts of the honorable member for Brunswick West on what this Bill proposes. To date, there has always been the feeling that a witness should be independent. As the honorable member said, there is also the feeling that the person who draws up a document perhaps cannot see some flaw in it. He should not witness something in which he might have made a mistake which a fresh brain, a fresh eye, or a fresh mind might detect. I can see the point of view of the Law Institute that to date, barristers and solicitors and their clerks who are also commissioners of the Supreme Court are precluded from taking affidavits, but I suggest

1142 Evidence (Foreign [ASSEMBLY.] Tribunals) Bill.

that in numerous cases they can act in what is tantamount to the same way.

There is almost a precedent for this. I appreciate that in country areas, where the distances are long, this may save a long weary hike on a hot day and, for that reason, perhaps this House should let this provision pass, but I am uneasy about it. With all due respects to the Law Institute, I consider that section 116 goes far enough, and the proposal in this Bill may be taking things a little too far.

J think the concept of teachers being authorized to witness signatures is good, but I ask the Minister to clarify the matter during the Committee stage. I should like him to state whether the provision is confined to teachers in State schools or whether it applies to teachers in all schools.

Mr. TURNBULL.-It says, "classified teachers in the Teaching Service ".

Mr. MITCHELL.- Later, there is a reference to teachers in any State school. I am not sure of the meaning, and I ask for the Minister's clarification. Once again, I think this will be the means of avoiding long hikes around country areas to find someone to witness a document. The Country Party supports the Bill.




Clause 2 (Person appointed by Foreign authority may take evidence and administer oaths).

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-1 should like to reply to the comments of the two honorable members who spoke in the second-reading debate. Each said that he was worried about the repeal of section 116 of the Evidence Act because legal practitioners may be

doing something wrong in taking affidavits of their own clients. This does not seem to be a very great cause for worry. Section 116 refers to affidavits which are sworn by Commissioners of the Supreme Court. An affidavit is only a deposition in writing and, sworn on oath, it becomes evidence wherever it is used, and has only the same value as evidence given in court. What is said in such an affidavit can be the subject of crossexamination.

When a person comes before a commissioner to swear an affidavit, all the commissioner asks him is whether the name and handwriting are his and if the contents of his affidavit are true and correct. It is no part of the commissioner's function to inquire into the material in the affidavit. In my view, this is not a very serious matter. I was sur .. prised when the honorable member for Benambra first said that he was worried about the provision and then, having realized that it might provide some benefit in country areas, squared himself by saying that he did not really oppose the provision. In my second-reading speech, I mentioned that the provision would be of benefit to people in country areas, not only to lawyers, but also to their clients.

Mr. TURNBULL.-The clerk of courts is always a commissioner.

Mr. WILCOX.-In some country areas, the court does not sit every day, and the clerk is not always present. The honorable member for Benambra said that the Government was worrying about small matters and then went to town as if they were really vital matters.

Mr. Moss.-You must admit that he made a valuable contribution to the debate.

Mr. WILCOX.-The honorable member for Benambra always does that. The honorable member was a little astray when he spoke about England, where the provisions of the Bill have been in operation for some

Evidence (Foreign [19 OCTOBER, 1966.] Tribunals) Bill. 1143

time, being so close to its neighbours but said that does not apply in Australia. If the honorable member for Benambra, or any other honorable member, thinks Australia is living in a vacuum to-day, is not close to its neighbours, and is not part of a world that is becoming very small, he is very much behind the times.

One of the reasons for the introduction of this measure is that the world is getting smaller, so to speak, and, as I mentioned in my secondreading speech, there are now many embassies in Australia representing countries throughout the world. Many people have come to Australia from overseas countries, so the need for this type of legislation is greater than ever before. Coming as he does from the fastnesses of the back country, I do not expect the honor'able member for Benambra to understand the importance of the geographical position of Australia to-day. I am grateful for the contributions made by honorable members to this debate.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra).-In his endeavour to make cheap jibes at country people, the Minister, purposely or otherwise, avoided answering two of my questions. This is typical of the evasive tactics adopted by the Government when it is faced with any worth-while responsibility; it is true to form on every occasion, and will dodge out from under at every opportunity. If the Minister had been paying attention, which he was not, he would have heard me ask him quite distinctly whether Victoria was the only State taking this action. I did not receive an answer to that question. Again, I was given the sort of cavalier treatment that is characteristic of this tired and decrepit apology for a Government.

The Minister referred to the proximity of Australia to overseas countries. His geography, like his law, is not his strong point. It took me an hour to fly from Frankfurton-Maine to London, but one cannot,

in a normal aeroplane, reach any foreign country from Victoria in that time. Therefore, we are still a long way from other countries. With his usual evasive tactics, the Minister dodged the point that I made that it is only in the past three years that the United Kingdom has seen fit to implement similar legislation. If it was found necessary only three years ago in the United Kingdom, why has this Government a sudden desire to introduce this measure? It has been done simply to grab every bit of kudos that it possibly can.

Another question that the Minister failed to answer was whether clause 4 refers to teachers in any schools. Would it apply, for example, to a nun of a convent school? The Minister dodged that question. Members of the Country Party feel that the Minister has not only treated us in a cavalier fashion but has not provided sufficient answers to our highly pertinent questions.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-For the benefit of the honorable member for Benambra who, apparently, did not hear my explanatory second-reading speech, I did say that it had been agreed that a similar measure would be introduced in all States of Australia.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses.


ADJOURNMENT. Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Labour

and Industry) .-1 move-That the House, at its rising, adjourn

until Tuesday next, at half-past Three o'clock.


The House adjourned at 10.1 p.m., until Tuesday, October 25.

1144 Education [COUNCIL.] Department.

14rgis!atiur (!tuunti!. Tuesday, October 25, 1966.


EVIDENCE (FOREIGN TRIBUNALS) BILL.


EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SEAHOLME PRIMARY SCHOOL.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Is it proposed to build further class-rooms at the Seaholme primary school; if not, will provision be made for temporary classrooms to be placed at this school?


It is not proposed to build further classrooms or to make provision for temporary class-rooms at the Seaholme school at present.

It is proposed to review the situation early in 1967 when more accurate information regarding 1967 enrolments will be known.

MATRICULATION CLASSES: CONSULTATIONS.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the MinIster of Agriculture-

(a) In regard to the Education Department's proposals to cut matriculation subjects and classes next year, was any offer made to any teacher organization that no proposal would be put forward without proper consultation; if so-(i) who made the offer; (ii) when was it made; (iii) what terms for consultation were suggested; and (iv) what consultations (if any) were held, and what was their outcome?

(b) If no final decisions have yet been made-(i) when will these matters be finalized; (ii) will the opinions of headmasters, teachers and their organizations,

advisory councils and parents be taken into account; and (iii) will all organizations and individuals concerned be properly consulted?


Proposals and decisions relating to teaching at matriculation level fall into two groups:

(1) Administrative, such as are made annually, and

(2) Those involving major organizational changes.

With regard to (1) no offer of consultation was intended. With regard to (2) the Chief Inspector of Secondary Schools on 14th July, 1966, undertook to provide the opportunity for discussion before any final decision is made. The opportunity is to be given to the Consultative Committee, which consists of representatives of the Victorian Teachers Union, the Victorian Secondary Teachers' Association, the Head Masters, Association and Victorian Council of School Organizations. This will be done when the matter is sufficiently advanced, which will probably be before the end of this year.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. METHODS AND MECHANIZATION.


In order that the improvement in methods and mechanization introduced into the railways during the years from 1952 to date might be studied, will the Minister advise either through the provision of comparative figures for 1952 and 1965, respectively, and/or comment in relation to the following-(i) the maximum permissible weight and length of goods trains; (ii) the number of locomotives and other depots operative in provincial towns; (iii) the number of signal boxes or cabins in use; (iv) the number of railway stations open for business; (v) the number of branch lines that have been closed and the mileage thereof; (vi) the number of workshops that have been closed, and the number of employees engaged in each instance prior to closure; (vii) the mechanical equipment in use in the maintenance and permanent way sections; (viii) the extent to which the permanent way gangs have been amalgamated following the introduction of mechanical equipment; (ix) to what extent mechanical equipment has reduced employment in the permanent way section; and (x) the number of computers or similar equipment in use for the preparation of returns, pay-rolls, &c.?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is long and detailed, and I

Railway Department. [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] Municipalities. 1145

therefore seek leave for its incorporation in Hansard, without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-

(i) 1952-2,233 tons-75 vehicles. 1965-2,906 tons-75 vehicles.

(ii) 1952-27. 1965-27.

(iii) 1952-298. 1965-249.

(iv) 1952-1,142 stations. 1965- 928 stations.

(v) From 1st January, 1952, to date 25 branch lines, with a total route mileage of 446, have been closed to traffic. (This excludes the Avoca-Ararat line, 39 miles in length, which is to re-open to traffic on 31st October, 1966.)

(vi) Nil.

(vii) Gradall multi-purpose excavator

Oliver tractor Ransome calf dozer .. Track wrench Mechanical spike

hammer .. Rail drill Rail saw .. Track jack .. Petrol flex woodborer Portable grinder Electric tie tamper Spike puller Adzing machine Spot air compressor Meco rail layer Sleeper loading

machine Sleepering machine .. Ballast cleaner Cribex machine Ballast router Matisa tamping

machine .. Weed spray unit Motor scythe Rotary hoe

1952 1965

1 2

1

2 1 1

16

9 10 8

43

10 32 34

4 72

5 7

23 2

107 10

1 5 5 7 3

13 35 13 39

(viii) On the Balranald and Deniliquin lines the track maintenance section gangs have been reduced from 45 men: in 9 gangs to 31 men in 6 gangs.

(ix) Other than on the Balranald and Deniliquin lines mechanical equipment has not reduced the number of men employed in permanent way section.

(x) 1952-nil. 1965-three. The machines are not used in pay-roll preparation.

MUNICIPALITIES. GARBAGE COLLECTION CHARGES.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) Do all municipalities make a garbage collection charge; if so-(i) what is the basis of the charge; and (ii) is it in the form of a rate?

(b) Are any municipalities providing this service without charge; if so, which municipalities?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-As this matter falls within the ambit of the Department of Health, I furnish the following answer on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Local Government:-

Under the provisions of section 60 of the Health Act 1958, councils may make and levy a sanitary rate to provide for the proper collection, removal and disposal of refuse and rubbish. Instead of making such a rate a council may, under the provisions of section 61 of that Act, make an annual charge for the proper collection and disposal of refuse and rubbish.

It is known that some councils include the sanitary rate as part of the general rate.

However, details of such rates and charges are not known to either the Department of Health or the Department of Local Government. The information, therefore, cannot be made available, as it would be necessary to seek details from all municipalities.

STATE SUPERANNUATION FUND. SUPPLEMENTARY PAYMENTS.


(a) Can the Minister advise as to the approximate date when superannuation payments will be adjusted as provided for in the Pensions Supplementation Act 1966; if so, what will be the dates applicable to superannuated members of the Victorian Railways, Education Department and Public Service, respectively?

(b) Will the full amount of back payment be made with the normal super-. annuation payment following such dates; if not, what will be the approximate delay for each of these categories?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-The answers are-

(a) It is not possible to name a specific date when the adjustment to superannuation pensions provided for in the Pensions

1146 Personal [COUNCIL.] Explanation.

Supplementation Act 1966 will be made. A substantial part of the information required by the Superannuation Board in connexion with pension supplementation has been furnished, and is being collated with information from the Superannuation Board's records for computer processing about the middle of November. The processing will continue as the balance of the information is received from the respective employing authorities.

As payment of pension supplementation is subject to an application by the pensioner, application forms will be forwarded to eligible pensioners as the amount payable is determined by the computer. The Board will authorize payment of the increases progressively as the applications are returned.

(b) The full amount of back payment will be made at the same time as the normal fortnightly pension is adjusted.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: MATRICULATION CLASSES.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) (By leave) .-1 wish to make a personal explanation to the House. On the last day of sitting, I asked the following question of the Minister Of Agriculture:-

(a) Further to question No: 15 asked in the House on 11th October, 1966, how many other secondary schools have been written to regarding the possibility of cutting out matriculation subjects next year?



(d) If these schools and their advisory councils object to the proposals, what action will the Minister take? I received the following reply from the Minister of Education through the Leader of the House:-

As the answer to questipn (a) is "None "., the other questions do not require replies. As I believed I had evidence that the reply was incorrect, I spoke on this matter on the adjournment of the House on the same day. Since then, the Minister of Education has forwarded to me the correct answer to my question, which is as follows:-

(a) Ten secondary schools have been written to regarding the possibility of cutting out matriculation subjects at such schools next year.

(b) The schools were written to on the 28th September, and no date was fixed for reply.

(c) Head masters at the following schools were asked to give careful thought to the suggestion that matriculation pupils should travel to neighbouring high schools for subjects other than English expression:-

Mortlake High School, Derinallum High School, Kaniva High School, Dimboola High School, Heywood High School, Tallangatta High School, Beechworth High School, Myrtleford High School, Nathalia High School, and Murtoa High School.

As the proposal is not now to proceed, it does not appear to be necessary to supply the remaining information requested in this section.

(d) The proposal has already been dropped.

WILSON'S PROMONTORY NATIONAL PARK.

TIDAL RIVER CAFE: OCCUPANCY OF PROPOSED HOTEL-MOTEL.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) (By leave).-I desire to make the following personal explanation to the House. On the 12th October last, Mr. Knight asked a series of questions concerning the cafe at Tidal River, and an incorrect answer was given, in as much as the name of Mr. Unger was mentioned instead of Mrs. Amalia Unger. The correct answers to the questions are as follows:-

(a) Mrs. Amalia Unger, the wife of Mr. R. Unger, is the present holder of permissive occupancy and business rights granted in 1958 to F. & H. Hobson of Foster, by the committee of management of the Wilson's Promontory National Park.

(b) There is no formal lease document. (c) The occupancy rights were for the

period ending the 31st December, 1978. (d) Negotiations are taking place with a

view to extinguishing Mrs. Unger's interest in the cafe business along with any occupancy rights.

(e) A submission has been made to the Treasurer by the Minister, but a decision has not yet been reached.

(f) Yes.

Natural [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] Gas. 1147

NATURAL GAS. The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland

Province).-I wish to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing the problems associated with the use of natural gas, the construction and maintenance of pipe-lines to deliver the gas, and the distribution of gas to' consumers.

Approval of the proposed discussion was indicated by the required number of members rising in their places, as specified in Standing Order No. 53.

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland Province).-Members of the Country Party are very concerned about the following report, which appeared in the Age newspaper to-day:-

NEW DELAY FOR GAS PLANS

Legislation to regulate off-shore oil and gas drilling and royalties in Victoria has been postponed until next year.

This follows failure yesterday of a conference of Mines Ministers and AttorneysGeneral from all States and the Commonwealth to agree on a draft of the uniform legislation.

The bill is separate from the Victorian legislation-to be introduced this week or next-to establish a Victorian Pipelines Commission to handle the East Gippsland off-shore natural gas.

But failure of yesterday's meeting ends Victoria's hopes of completing all its oil and gas legislation before Christmas.

This is very disconcerting news to honorable members and people throughout the State. I propose to discuss the procrastination and delay which has occurred in relation to this matter.

In the Age, as far back as the 9th September last, under the heading "Oil-Gas Planning Again Delayed", the following report appeared in a feature article:-

Hopes for early introduction of uniform legislation on oil and gas exploitation have received another setback.

This article referred to a conference of Attorneys-General from all States and the Commonwealth which was

to have been held in Melbourne. The article went on to say-

The Victorian Government planned to introduce the Bill in the present session of Parliament, which ends in December.

Now it is uncertain whether the final draft will be approved in time by all concerned.

This was a forecast of what appeared in the Age to-day. Of course, it was also foreshadowed by Mr. Snedden, the Federal Attorney-General, in Adelaide, as reported in the Adelaide press on the 9th September. Mr. Snedden earlier expressed the hope that the necessary legislation would be brought before Parliament, but he is recorded as having said-

It was hoped Government legislation on off-shore oil drilling would have been drafted in time for consideration as a complete document by the standing co~mittee of Australian Attorneys-General In October.

There have been grave doubts and delay all along the line in the consideration of this matter, and the people of Victoria are now very perturbed about it. I shall not at this stage say any more about the delay, as I wish to deal spec.ific3:11y with the question of the dIstrIbution and marketing of natural gas. Of course, various proposals have be~n made concerning who should dIStribute and market natural gas in Victoria, and there have been many conflicting reports on the matter.

It is interesting to follow the order of events in Victoria. The first bore for off-shore gas in Victoria was started on the 27th December, 1964. Gas was discovered in February, 1965 It is now nearly 1967, and still there is inde"cision, delay and considerable apprehension as to who will distribute the natural gas to the public and who will market it. It has been suggested that the marketing authority is to be the Gas and Fuel Corporation.

Soon after his return from overseas, the Premier stated that he would call an immediate conference with the discoverers of the natural gas and the Gas and Fuel Corporation

1148 Natural [COUNCIL.] Gas.

so that a satisfactory basis of negotiation could be determined. Time has gone on. At that time, everyone thought the Premier was a strong man who would get results, but this has not proved to be so. Despite the many questions asked in Parliament, there has been no clarification as to what the future holds in relation to the ultimate distribution and marketing of natural gas. There is grave public disquiet, and the greater the delay, the longer it will take for the final benefits to flow to the consuming public.

In his report to the Premier on the orderly development of petroleum in Victoria, dated March, 1966, at page 1, Dr. Hetherington stated-

The proved recoverable pipe-line gas reserve of the First Gippsland Shelf Field is 1 tril1ion cubic feet, and the proved and probable reserve is 1.4 trillion cubic feet ... The First Gippsland Shelf Field is adequate to support an average day delivery of 150 million cubic feet per day at a maximum delivery rate of 200 million cubic feet per day for in excess of seventeen years and probably in excess of twenty years.

That is an early recognition of considerable supplies of natural gas in the Gippsland off-shore area. In dealing with the Gas and Fuel Corporation, at page 2-3, Dr. Hetherington said-

The Corporation may by agreement or compulsorily acquire other gas undertakings in the State . . . The Corporation also has the right to take possession of or expropriate lands necessary for the construction of facilities of the undertaking.

At page 2-5 he further stated-The Gas and Fuel Corporation has

proposed that it should purchase gas from the producer at an onshore processing location, construct and own or participate in the ownership of a large diameter gas pipe-line to Morwell and thence to Dandenong following the existing pipe-line right of way ... Natural gas service to outlying country towns will depend upon economics, having regard for volumes required and pipelines distances involved and undoubtedly some communities will be better served with some other form of gas.

There appears to be a chain of circumstances governing the failure of the Government to solve the problem of the distribution and marketing

The Hon. R. W. May.

of natural gas, and to arrive at a satisfactory agreement. In country areas, it is being freely stated that this delay is not purely coincidental, that there is some underlying motive. It is not good that these thoughts should be exercising the minds of the public. Early in September, before a further meeting of the AttorneysGeneral of the States and the Commonwealth was held, it was stated in the press that it was problematical that agreement would be reached and that a further session of Parliament would pass without any finality in the matter and without an appropriate Bill being introduced. That fear is confirmed in a press statement of to-day. It would appear that the press reports of September last were accurate as to the outcome of yesterday's conference of State and Commonwealth AttorneysGeneral.

It has been the experience of other countries, where natural gas has been discovered and reticulated by pipeline, that industries will surely follow. Apparently, Dr. Hetherington made a recommendation that the Gas and Fuel Corporation should be abolished. Is it pure chance that a gross revenue tax has been imposed on the Gas and Fuel Corporation? One could assume that this would weaken the structure of the Corporation, and thereby affect its capacity to undertake the piping of this gas. The following article appeared in the Age of 17th September of this year: -

The chairman of BHP Pty. Co. Ltd. (Sir Colin Syme) told the company's annual meeting yesterday the price wanted by BHPEsso should permit a 25 per cent. cut on current gas prices.

Sir Colin, making his company's first public comment on protracted negotiations with the Gas and Fuel Corporation, said the price should be reduced by 50 per cent. within five years.

Further reductions appeared possible, he said. Discussions were continuing in an atmosphere of mutual understanding and his board hoped that finality would soon be reached, he said. The Premier (Sir Henry Bolte) said last night he hoped agreement would be reached within six weeks in the off-shore natural gas talks.


The Government was anxious for an early settlement of the natural gas price question.

"In the present situation the producers are predicting the distributors' costs, and the distributors are predicting the producers' costs," he said.

" Each is trying to run the others' business -but they should stick to running their own concerns. "

Sir Colin Syme said at the BHP annual meeting that shareholders should be advised of the position of BHP and Esso Exploration.

Sir Colin Syme stressed, and Dr. Hetherington agreed, that there would be an initial saving of 25 per cent. in the cost of the gas to the consumers, and an ultimate saving of 50 per cent. In anybody's language, that is a worth-while saving.

It is interesting to note that the Age further reported-

Although the Gas and Fuel Corporation and BHP-Esso claim recent talks between them failed because of disagreement on the price of natural gas, an important factor in the breakdown of the talks was a plan by BHP-Esso to supply natural gas to unreticulated areas.

BHP-Esso wants to supply natural gas to areas where the Gas and Fuel Corporation does not operate.

It also wants permission to distribute the gas to "certain large industries" written into any agreement on the price of natural gas.

The corporation is unlikely to accede to BHP-Esso requests, because it believes the areas not yet reticulated could house thousands of potential consumers in the near future.

The corporation also wants power to supply to industry in general, because of the tremendous potential consumption.

A chain of circumstances of erosion of the ability and the capacity of the Gas and Fuel Corporation to carry out this necessary and essential service to the public of Victoria can be seen. Those members who remember the situation prior to the establishment of the Corporation wel-comed its advent in this State. Under all these circumstances, is it any wonder that the public should be apprehensive of this proposal?

Although the State of South Australia is in need of a reticulated gas supply, following the discovery of natural gas, the Government

experienced no difficulty in deciding how the interests of the State's consumers could be best served. The South Australian Advertiser quotes the Premier of South Australia as saying-

All the Government's investigations indicated that to keep the costs of delivery of fuel to a minimum, it was most desirable that any pipe-line be financed by funds provided by the Government, or at least by Government-guaranteed funds.

It was most desirable that the pipe-line be conducted wholly on a non-profit basis.

This meant that it was necessary for the pipe-line authority to be a statutory authority.

That the cost of getting gas from the well-head ... would be the biggest factor in the supply price.

I think it is agreed that the profits to be made from natural gas will be made by the company reticulating it. The newspaper report also states-

The Professor of Economic Geology at the University of Adelaide (Professor E. A. Rudd), has said that this is the best discovery in South Australia since its foundation.

Gas has been found and when the companies are able to sell some of it each year they will be able to continue their explorations for more gas and for oil.

"This side of the picture is as important to this State as the benefits to be obtained from the use of the present discoveri,es."

It is interesting to note that in South Australia the discoverers of the gas -South Australia and Northern Territory Oil Research-wholeheartedly agree with the South Australian Premier's statement. The company says that the cheapest method of supplying the gas to the consumer is through a State corporation. This is so because the Government is able to raise funds at a much lower rate of interest than can private enterprise-51 per cent. as compared with 7! per cent. The proposal for a consortium of companies to pipe the gas received short-shrift, and the Premier said that the Government was not interested in such a proposal.


One can envisage a consortium whereby a State authority provides a percentage of the money, and the authority is able to borrow from the consortium of companies. In that -case, the authority would be able to repay the loan.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-This State is getting no nearer to obtaining gas ; the only " gas " we are getting is the talk about it.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-All this represents a greater delay in the ultimate distribution of gas in this State. To-day, the general public is receiving very little information to allay its concern and its fears. The press reports that Esso-BHP is vitally interested in the distribution of gas in this State. Because of its interest in the production of synthetic rubber in this State, and tbe fact that one of the essentials "in this manufacture is a by-product of natural gas, one can appreciate Esso's enthusiasm. This company would be most interested in piping the gas to a location where it would be advantageous to it.

There was also a report that Esso was the losing bidder in its attempt to gain control of Cresco Fertilizers; W. R. Grace, another American company, was the successful bidder. If one can accept the Australian Financial Review as a reliable newspaper, it reports that Esso is interested in a property at Werribee, presumably for the manufacture of fertilizers. Here again, one of the byproducts of natural gas is essential to the manufacture of fertilizers. One can imagine that Esso would be interested in obtaining land in the proximity of Werribee, because its opposition in the manufacture and distribution of fertilizers is located in the Geelong area, and also because a large percentage of fertilizers is distrihuted by road. Strategically, this company would then be placed in a position to compete with its opposition in relation to distribution costs.

If the piping of gas were undertaken by a private company such as Esso, that company could reticulate the gas to the detriment of its competitors. This is causing a great deal of apprehension in the community. As I travelled around the Sta te in the past few days, I was surprised to hear the conjecture on developments within the Parliament of this State; that it is proposed to advance the date of the election to April next year. One reason, of course, is the concern for the health of members of Parliament; they do not want to get wet feet campaigning in the cold winter months. There is not the same concern over the prospect of getting wet feet in April. It was freely stated that there was a connexion between advancing the date of the election and the date of the introduction of legislation dealing with the distribution of natural gas. Not being an authority on the subject, I could not hazard a guess, but it was freely stated that there was a connexion between the two events.

There has been" procrastination on this subject, and when Mr. Snedden, the Commonwealth AttorneyGeneral, addressed a meeting in Adelaide, he envisaged that this would be the position. The Age, of 9th September again reported that this legislation would not be introduced during the present session of Parliament, which means that it will be delayed until the autumn session of next year.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-From where did the Age obtain its information?

The Hon. R. W. MA Y.-Perhaps the honorable member was the informant. I do not know, but presumably it obtained reliable information from somewhere, because the report appears to have been remarkably accurate.

In his report, Dr. Hetherington made a feature of the fact that the Gas and Fuel Corporation has the


power to acquire land, to acquire undertakings, and to take land for the laying of pipe-lines. The report appears to imply that the Corporation should be used for this purpose but then, at page 11-9, the report goes on to say that the need for the existence of the Corporation in a free enterprise economy no longer exists, and that it ought to be returned to private ownership. One is reminded that not only does the Corporation have this power, but also that Parliament some time ago passed the Shell Pipelines Act which gives considerable power to the Shell company. Section 3 provides, " This Act shall bind the Crown." Nowhere does it state that the Shell company shall be bound. Section 4 provides, " This Act shall take effect nothwithstanding anything in any Act." So, it overrides all other Acts. The openings words of sections 6 and 7 are, "Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any other Act." Section 8 contains the crux of the matter in that it provides-

The Company may take compulsorily any easement over any private land which is required for the purposes of the construction operation inspection maintenance and repair of pipe-lines authorized by this Act.

One can envisage that it would not take a large extension of those powers to put the Shell company into the same sphere of activity as the Gas and Fuel Corporation.

As one reads the report by Dr. Hetherington, one is impressed by the fact that its main theme is that the Gas and Fuel Corporation has served its purpose and ought to be disbanded. One can see a chain of actions developing. A gross revenue tax has been imposed on the Corporation, and the people negotiating with the Corporation in regard to natural gas want to reserve for themselves the right to supply industry outside the agreement and the right to supply unreticulated areas. This is being done in an endeavour to erode the Corporation which, over the years, has earned the confidence of the

people of Victoria, and should therefore be retained and permitted to continue the services it has been giving. The Corporation would be in an invidious position if it were required to rely on another organization to pipe the gas which it reticulates to consumers in Melbourne and its environs. These things are creating grave doubts in the minds of the public, and great concern has been expressed because of the obvious delays.

The well was spudded in on 27th December, 1964, and gas was discovered in February, 1965, at a depth of approximately 4,000 feet.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-That is not quite right; the extent of the field had to be proved.

The Hon. R. W. MA Y.-A company which has discovered oil or gas does not want the field to be declared commercial too early, because once it has been so declared the company no longer receives Government subsidies. That is of major significance, and the taxpayers pay this subsidy which the wealthy oil companies receive. The company is better off if it can delay the declaration of the field.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Do you mean t1:lat it is more profitable to search for gas than to sell it? I cannot follow your argument.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-The point I am making is that when a company discovers gas and the field is declared commercial, it is no longer eligible for a Government subsidy.

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT.-You said that the company did not want the field declared commercial because it would lose its subsidy.

The Hon. R. W. MA Y.-I am saying that the companies derive benefits by creating delays in having a field qeclared commercial. They know that, having these vast resources, their future income is assured, because they can sell the gas or oil at any time. In the interim, and before


the field is declared to be commercial, the companies receive Government subsidies. The gas will bring the same return, no matter when it is sold.

Oil has been discovered in what were some of the poorest countries in the world, but they did not l1and the fields over to private enterprise and overseas interest. The Governments of those countries went to international lending institutions and obtained advances against the security of the royalities that they would receive. In that way, they retained the wealth in their own countries. Oil companies are not taxed in the same manner as other public companies. They are classed as mining companies, and therefore enjoy considerable concessions.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-They are having a pretty good time.

The Hon. R. W. MA Y.-I do not think they are badly treated. I have already mentioned the power that the Shell company has in regard to its pipe-lines, and that power could quite easily be extended to this field. There is a great deal of concern in the minds of the public that, if the right to pipe natural gas is given to a private company, that company will supply the gas only to areas where it can be justified economically. However, if a statutory authority such as the Gas and Fuel Corporation pipes the gas throughout Victoria and markets and distributes it, a great opportunity will be provided for development in country areas.

I understand that the experts in this field have examined the position and have determined that the cost of piping the gas within Victoria will be in the vicinity of $93,000,000. If the Gas and Fuel Corporation undertook this task, it would, at an early date, have to raise $63,000,000 from outside sources. It has been stated consistently that such large sums of money could not be raised by the Corporation and that the Corporation may be contravening the Commonwealth-States Financial Agreement by

seeking this money outside. However, as I understand the position, the Corporation could raise the money by issuing second-preference shares without contravening the agreement.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Do you mean debentures or shares?

The Hon. R. W. MA Y.-I am referring to second-preference shares. Over a short period of time, the Corporation could obtain the remainder of this amount by ploughing back its profits, in much the same manner as the State Electricity Commission does. It is apparent that the great concern being expressed by members of the public about this matter has some foundation. They are of the opinion that it would be infinitely better for the Corporation not only to distribute the gas but also to market it.

From what I have read in the press, I understand that the Government envisages the establishment of a new commission superimposed on the Gas and Fuel Corporation. In view of the fact that the members of the Corporation have the approval and the blessing of the Government, I should have thought that the Government would be happy for the Corporation to continue with this onerous and responsible duty.

The Ministry of Fuel and Power has been established and, in my opinion, it would be the ideal liaison body. This is a matter of such far-reaching consequences that the public are greatly perturbed at the delay that has occurred. They are concerned also because financial benefits are being withheld from the State. All the authorities seem to agree-that is, if there is such an authority on this matter-that the saving could be in the vicinity of $340,000,000 by 1980. That is a considerable sum, and such saving is most necessary in view of the state of the economy of Victoria at present.

Wherever the gas pipe-lines are laid, industry will follow. Much country development could go by the


board, so to speak, because the economics of laying pipe-lines in outlying centres would not be an attractive proposition for private enterprise. As honorable members know, the State Electricity Commission has rendered splendid service to Victoria by supplying power to the far corners of the State and applying a uniform tariff to electricity supplies. The Country Party believes that this is the ideal situation and that every endeavour should be made to see that natural gas is also distributed widely throughout the State, and that the Gas and Fuel Corporation should be responsible for the distribution and marketing of natural gas in Victoria.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province) .-1 wish to support my colleague, Mr. May, in his references to the discovery and distribution of natural gas. The discovery of natural gas was one of the most momentous events in Victoria's history. In fact, the Premier and many other eminent people have claimed that this discovery is comparable with the discovery of gold and that, in the long run, it could prove of greater advantage and value to Victoria than gold. The development of our natural gas resources would mean a considerable reduction in the price of fuel, not only to the average householder, but also to a great many industries which need the benefit of reduced costs in order to function efficiently in Victoria.

The Country Party is perturbed at the delays that have taken place in the development of our natural gas resources. Mr. May has expressed concern that it now appears likely that no action will be taken until after the next election. If that is so, the control of natural gas and matters pertaining to natural gas will become a political football during the election, which is wrong, or, alternatively, the question will be completely ignored. Then, if the Government is returned to office, its point

of view will be forced on the State, which may not prove beneficial to the State as a whole.

Honorable members should not forget that it was a Country Party Government which established the Gas and Fuel Corporation and eliminated the chaos that was present in regard to the gas industry in Melbourne. At the time, my party was accused of all sorts of socialistic and communistic ideas, but the Corporation has proved a brilliant success. Unfortunately, a number of people are so pledged to the bogy of private enterprise that if they could do so they would "dump" the Corporation and allow the control and distribution of gas to revert to some other form of administration. There should be no further procrastination or delay on this important question; already, the delays have been excessive, and it is possible that, to some extent, they have been deliberate.

Insufficient attention is being applied to the solution of this problem. The only difference of opinion relates to the price of gas. Surely, it should be possible for those concerned to meet around the table and to come to some agreement about the price. Those who represent the State -the Premier and the Treasurymust know what the State can afford to pay for the gas, and agreement on a fair price should be reached without delay. No one denies the right of the companies concerned to make a reasonable amount of profit from the gas, but they should not be in a position to exploit householders or industry in Victoria. Unfortunately, if the delays continue, there will be a tendency for these matters to be slurred over and forgotten and, in the long run, a series of arrangements will be made that will not prove beneficial to the State.

Only ten or fifteen years ago, a definite plan was instigated for the distribution of electric power throughout the State. At one stage, it appeared almost impossible

1154 . Natural [COUNCn...] Gas.

that electric power would be supplied throughout Victoria, but we are now within sight of this objective. A Country Party Government played an important role in this regard. My party believes that every effort should be made to distribute gas widely throughout the State. Because of their geographical location, towns in the Latrobe Valley should be supplied with gas, which would assist to attract industries to that part of the State. Gas supplies should also be distributed to smaller towns and cities throughout the State, such as Ballarat, Geelong, Bendigo, Wangaratta, Shepparton, and numerous other places. The development of these areas would be greatly assisted if supplies of gas could be provided at the right price.

Victoria should not give away its birthright so far as natural gas is concerned by allowing powerful companies to dictate terms to the State. The Government should not deliberately forsake the people for the sake of the profits being made by big companies which, in many cases, are not located in Australia but which have their origins ioverseas. The citizens of the State must not be exploited for the benefit of overseas interests. The Country Party is prepared to pay a tribute to the overseas investors who have assisted in the development of this country, but Australia should not be placed in a position of economic serfdom. Such a situation can occur if the development of natural gas is not tackled energetically and speedily with a view to distributing gas widely throughout the State.

If the present trend continues and no firm decision concerning the well-head price of gr.s is reached, there will be a tendency for it no longer to be the burning question in the minds of people that it was when the gas was first discovered. If no action is taken until after the election, a great deal of interest will be lost in the matter, and the people

Sir Percy Byrnes.

will no longer fight for their rights. If at the next election the Government is returned with a majority, it will claim that it has a mandate from the electors on this issue, and ultimately the development and distribution of natural gas will bring benefit only to private industry.

Mr. May said that he was perturbed at the threat to the continued existence of the Gas and Fuel Corporation. It would be tragic if a body such as the Corporation, which has rendered such splendid service to the State, was denied the right to expand its activities. The experience gained by the Corporation during the past fourteen or fifteen years has given it the right to control the distribution of natural gas to its consumers. The Corporation is capable of doing this extremely well. Whenever it has been able to do so, the Corporation has reduced costs. It has been well managed, and there is no reason why its future should not be as bright as its past history. If private enterprise has a dominating interest in the development of the natural gas industry, its sole concern will be profits; it would not be interested in supplying gas to the less densely populated parts of the State.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.You are a good socialist.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-I have been called many things during my Parliamentary career~ including a communist and a socialist. I am really a "cocky". When I hear people say tha t there is no socialism in Victoria, I think of the occasions when I pick up a telephone, look at the television screen, and use water and other amenities which are controlled by the Government. We live in a society which uses many amenities that are given to the people by the people themselves. I hope all honorable members will have sufficient intelligence to remember that Australia is one of the leading countries of the world in making provision for its people and obtaining benefits from the tremendous organizations which are publicly


owned. Many people would never have these amenities to-day if whereever possible we had not had the courage and vision to retain public ownership in them.

Fortunately, we have been able to put in charge of these organizations men who have the requisite capacity and ability to manage great enterprises. It would be a tragedy if, for any reason, we handed over our birthright so far as oil is concerned to some foreign-owned company which would exploit future generations. I support Mr. May in the objection he has voiced to the delays that have taken place on this vital issue. The whole matter should be settled before and not after the next election.

Every effort should be made by the mines Ministers to overcome as quickly as possible the problems that exist; they should not just sit down and take no action for the next six months. There is plenty of time between now and Christmas in which these matters could be dealt with. On many occasions in the past, Victoria has gone it alone, as it were, and when it was possible to do something that was worth while for the State, we have done it. We have not remained inactive simply because the other States have not taken certain action. However, the Government appears to be excusing its failure to take appropriate action by Citing the failures of New South Wales, South Australia and other States in this regard.

I am sure Victoria is capable of running its own affairs, and there is no reason for the delays that have taken place. In fact, the Premier, Sir Henry Bolte, frequently asserts that Victoria is the leading State of the Commonwealth. Here is an opportunity for the Government, led by Sir Henry Bolte, to bring about a solution to the problems associated with natural gas before the next election rather than at some distant future time.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-At least, honorable members are agreed on one thing, that the discovery of natural gas is a momentous happening in the history of Victoria and, indeed, of Australia. What we are not in agreement on are the terms of the motion which has been moved. Before I deal with what has been said, I remind the House of the kind of resources of which we are speaking. Sir Percy Byrnes has already told the House that the Governor described the discovery of natural gas as being as important to Victoria as was the discovery of gold. In the long run, it could possibly be more important. What we have already is a gas field-the Gippsland Shelf No. I-under the waters of Bass Strait, which is sufficient to supply the present and potential needs of Victoria. for at least twenty years. We know that another field has been located, the size of which has not yet been revealed. It could be as large again. If Dr. Hetherington is correct, the potential fields are many times larger still. We have an enormous reserve of energy of the kind which we have never had before.

In the United States of America, natural gas is the source of onethird of all energy in use. If development of that kind occurs in Victoria, and in Australia generally, we will indeed have a real bonanza. It therefore behoves us to make the right decisions at the beginning, and to proceed on a proper basis from now on. Parliament has a particular responsibility to make the right decisions.

I remind the House that Dr. Hetherington says that, in Victoria, the potential usage of natural gas for the next five years is six times the present usage of gas, and within ten years it will be ten times. It is obvious that this whole matter must be handled intelligently.

Mr. May and Sir Percy Byrnes both referred to two forms of delay which, they said, were perturbing the people


of the State. Mr. May mentioned the delay in reaching agreement with the Commonwealth and other States on the handling of and responsibilities for off-shore gas and oil. Sir Percy Byrnes rather suggested that Victoria could go ahead alone, but I have to tell him that the matter is not nearly as simple as that. It raises probably the most complex constitutional and legal questions we have had to face. Other countries have already had to face similar problems.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.That is only outside our actual shoreline.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I remind Mr. Merrifield that we are dealing with gas and oil discovered outside our shoreline. Victoria, of all States, is most interested in having the problems resolved. Last December, the Commonwealth Minister for National Development, Mr. Fairbairn, and the Minister of Mines of each State, made comprehensive statements to their respective Parliaments setting out the measure of agreement which had been reached on off-shore oil and gas. At that time, it appeared that most of the principles had been settled upon and that legislation would not be difficult to frame. The problems which had been resolved related, first, to the territorial authority of each State outside its own shoreline. Questions had been raised as to whether that authority extended, as it did in the 17th century, to the 3-mile limit, or whether, in more modern times, it extended to a 12-mile limit, which some countries claim as the point to which their authority extends, or whether, again, it extended to the edge of the continental shelf, which is usually set at the 100-fathom line.

The Commonwealth complicated the issue by claiming that there might be a separate sphere of Commonwealth authority outside the boundary of the States' spheres. It said that, for instance, the States' spheres might extend 3 miles from their shorelines and there might be a zone

of Commonwealth authority extending to the edge of the continental shelf, this authority being based on international accord. Those were some of the problems of a constitutional character which had to be resolved by the Attorneys-General of the Commonwealth and the States and the Mines Ministers. Last December, it was believed that the main principles had been agreed upon. For instance, it had been agreed that the States would administer the exploration for oil and gas in off-shore waters, and would grant licences and, afterwards, commercial leases on an agreed basis, and that the royalties would be shared between the Commonwealth and the particular State.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Was there any talk about how much the royalty would be?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-As I recall, the royalties were to be 10 per cent. of the well-head price of the oil or gas, and would be shared equally between the Commonwealth and the State concerned.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-And that royalty would eventually be provided by the consumer.

The Han. R. J. HAMER.-I suppose royalties of any kind are eventually provided by the consumer. I cannot think of a tax of that sort which does not have this character.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-That is a very frank admission.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I think that is quite obvious. That was the situation last December. Since then, the Attorneys-General have met several times. I understand that an enormous piece of legislation will be required and that it will contain something like 180 clauses. It was hoped and expected that final agreement would be reached, and that draft legislation would be presented in a form which could be finally adopted, at a meeting this week, but those hopes were not realized. That was a great disappointment to Victoria,


for, as I have already said, Victoria has the greatest incentive and the most urgent need to have these matters agreed upon so that the necessary legislation can be introduced.

The Government fully intended to introduce the relevant legislation this session, and it still intends to do that as soon as the draft Bill has the approval of the States and the Commonwealth. All the States and the Commonwealth, with their Governments of various political colours, are intent on reaching agreement and introducing legislation as soon as possible. If there is any suggestion that there is some plot to delay the legislation, the Labor Party, which forms the Governments of Tasmania and South Australia, and the Country Party, which is part of the coalition Government of Queensland, are in it. If any Ie underhand deal" is being made, it is the responsibility of all concerned, because all the Governments are in it. However, I have heard no suggestion that that is the position, and in fact it is not the position. The sooner legislation is approved by the assembled Attorneys-General, the sooner it will be introduced. I hope and expect that this House will have to consider that legislation before very long.

The second question is one within the competence of Victoria. The matter which has so far held up further progress with legislation which will be required in Victoria is the question of price. The price of natural gas is being negotiated between the Gas and Fuel Corporation, in which the Country Party has expressed great confidence-and I do not suggest that that confidence is misplacedand Esso-BHP.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Is the Gas and Fuel Corporation acting as an agent for the Government, or purely for itself?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The Corporation is acting in both capacities. It is acting on its own behalf,

because it is the largest potential purchaser of the gas, and it is quite clear that what it agrees upon will fix the pattern for everybody else. In that sense, it has the full approval of the Government to proceed with the negotiations and to reach an agreement on price. It is a disappointment that agreement has not been reached before this.

I wish to quote a couple of paragraphs from the report of Dr. Hetherington to show how important is the question of price to the exploitation of natural gas. Price is a critical factor. It is not just a factor; it is the factor which will decide, for the future, how the gas is to be exploited, to what extent it will be exploited, and what use will be made of it.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-Does that not apply to all commodities?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It applies to this commodity more than to any other that I know of. At paragraph 3, of his report, Dr. Hetherington said-

The potential market for natural gas that can be developed in Victoria within five years for residential, commercial and industrial purposes is estimated at 175 million cubic feet per average day.

At paragraph 11, he said-Some 75 per cent. of the potential market

for natural gas lies in the industrial field and the availability of natural gas to Victorian industry can be of great benefit to the State.

At paragraph 8, he said-When natural gas is made available to

industry the prices of other fuels will adjust downward. In order for natural gas to be competitive at these new lower price levels and in order to make natural gas available to promote new industry it must be priced in the range of 8d. per therm to small industry and in the range of 4d. per therm to other industry with large volume interruptible sales as low as 3d. per thermo

How low those prices are can be realized when it is considered that the average householder in Victoria pays the equivalent of 45d. per therm for gas at the moment.

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Do you agree with Dr. Hetherington?


The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Yes. to be a low price in order to get industries to use the fuel, and there

The Hon. R. W. MAY.-Then you must be a volume of gas to enable would agree with his next recom- the price to be lowered and a profit mendation, that the Gas and Fuel to be made. If the price is too high, Corporation ought to be returned to the natural gas may as well remain private enterprise. in the ground because it will not be

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-No, I used. These two factors between do not agree with that. That was them make for very complicated a trick question. Mr. May asked if negotiations between the producer I agreed with what I had quoted. and the main user and distributorThe answer to that question is the Gas and Fuel Corporation" Yes". If he asked me if I agree which is doing its best to get the with everything Dr. Hetherington gas at as Iowa . price as possible. It said, the answer is certainly" No." has been suggested that negotiations

. have proceeded for too long a period. The sitting was suspended at 6.28 Probably, all honorable members

p.m. until 8.50 p.m. consider that they have gone on for The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Prior to a disappointingly long time.

the suspension of the sitting, I had The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-The indicated to the House that the ques- Premier stated that recently. tion of the price at which natural gas was to be sold and marketed was not The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is just an incident in the preparations so, and he called the parties together for exploiting this new resource but to ascertain what stage the proceedthat it was absolutely critical. I refer ings had reached. Each party stated honorable members to paragraph 13 that agreement was being reached, of Dr. Hetherington's report, in which and a similar statement was made as he stated - recently as this week. I do not think

In the best interest of the producer, the any ~ember of this House believes consumer and the State of Victoria as a . that It would be proper for the whole, natural ga~ shou.ld be priced in the Premier or anyone else to intervene field at levels WhICh Will adequately com- so long as the two parties who are pensate the producer and encourage . bl continued exploration but which will permit mamly concerned .have a reasona e sales in the full range of potential markets, prospect of reachIng mutual agreegiving lower priced gas to the public and mente In the end, these things must ma~ing ga.s available for industry. at pri~es depend upon agreement. Of course, de~~~pm~~L also encourage mdustrIal if there were ~n irr~vocable deadlock

. and both partIes saId that there was In. that sentence, Dr. Hethermgton! I no prospect of their reaching agree-thl~k, sums up .th~ whole crucIal ment, the only solution would be for basIs of the negotIatIOn.s between the the Government to step in and devise Gas and Fuel Corpo.ratI?n and Ess?- a way, whether by arbitration or by BHP. These organIzatIons are dls- some other means in which the cussing fractions of a cent, and these matter could be det~rmined. I assure fractions are absolutely c~itical, be- the House that if agreement cannot cause on the o~tcom.e WIll depend be reached the Government will the extent to whIch thIS new fuel and take the necessary action. However, energy can be profitably and properly at present although the negotiations used. ' have been somewhat protracted, the

Dr. Hetherington stated that the volume at which the natural gas is drawn out of the ground and passed through pipe-lines is also a critical factor. The price and the volume interact on one another. There has

stage has not been reached where the parties are at a deadlock. In fact, the contrary is the case, because the parties have steadily whittled away the areas of disagreement and they are no\v in the position of saying that


agreement is probable. That is the story on the negotiations concerning the price of the gas. It is a critical factor, and negotiations have proceeded for a long time, but some agreement is in sight.

Mr. May also referred to the distribution of the gas. I am in some difficulty in this regard because, as honorable members are aware, a Bill to deal with this matter is to be introduced into Parliament this week. However, I point out to honorable members that Dr. Hetherington recommended that there should be a Government-sponsored gas trunk pipe-line company responsible for the transport of gas within the State and that ownership should be shared by the owner of the gas, the distributors and the general public. That recommendation is contained in paragraph 27 (d) of his report.

It is not my intention to predebate this issue, but I merely remind the House that it has been announced that there is to be a pipe-line commission along the lines recommended by Dr. Hetherington but with one great difference, that it is to be not a private company but a statutory corporation of the kind which is to operate in South Australia and which Mr. May cited with such approval. It is to be a semi-governmental body. There are many reasons why such a body is desirable, and I shall wait until the appropriate time to state them. All I want to say is that the question of distribution has been resolved in the mind of the Government for some time but, because of the protracted negotiations in regard to price, it was thought proper to introduce this Bill into Parliament so that the future course of events will be quite clear when the price is finally agreed upon. The Government proposes a trunk pipe-line, not just from Gippsland to Melbourne, but all over the State including pipe-lines from other field~ if they are discovered.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURy.-Is not that a duplication?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I do not think so. However, I do not think the matter should be debated at this stage. It was suggested by Mr. May and Sir Percy Byrnes that someone was setting out to assassinate the Gas and Fuel Corporation. I assure honorable members that nothing is further from the truth. Dr. Hetherington recommended that the present gas distributing agency should continue, and I know of no proposal that ~he Gas and Fuel Corporation, which IS the largest distributor of gas in Victor~a, and which will have great potentIal for new sales, new industries and new turnover, should not continue. In short, the Corporation is not to be dissolved; it is to continue with its present task and with expanded responsibilities.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURy.-Is the Gas ~nd Fuel Corporation not piping LurgI gas at present?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Yes. The Corporation is manufacturing the gas a~ Morwell and pipe-lining it to the CIty. To sum up, there is no indecision in this matter, and there has been no avoidable delay. In all these matters, as regards both the States and the Commonwealth, very complicated issues arise as between the producers, the consumers and the distribu.tors. In the end, the question of prIce must depend upon mutual agr~ement; there is no way of compellmg people to adopt a certain solution.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-You can leave the gas at the bottom of the sea.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That is a counsel of despair. There is no suggestion that our birthright should be given away. The body of which Mr. May approves is, on our behalf, negotiating for a price which will set the pattern for the future use and exploitation of natural gas. I have the greatest confidence that that price will be a proper one. Some key legislation will be placed before the House immediately, and, as soon


as the Commonwealth and the States finally agree on their legislation, that will be brought before this Parliament, too. It is quite wrong to say that there has been a delay which could have been avoided, or that the Government is not intent, as is everyone else, on getting this energy to the consumers in Victoria at the earliest possible moment.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 must challenge at once the statement that it is quite wrong to say that there has been some unnecessary delay. First of all, the Government saysand I hope it is right-that the discovery of natural gas can be compared in importance to the discovery of gold in Victoria about 100 years ago. But there is a remarkable difference. When gold was discovered, its wealth was made available to the people of Victoria within a few weeks.

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT.-It is not analogous; you cannot dig out gas with your bare hands and sell a few pounds of it at a time.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Of course one cannot do so.

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT.-It is a very costly procedure.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is so.

The Hon. W. R. GARRETT.-There is enough natural gas from the other side of the Chamber to illuminate Melbourne for 100 years.

The President (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! Honorable members who are interjecting can express their views at a later stage.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.For whom does the bell toll on gas in Victoria?

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-For whom?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-For the Gas and Fuel Corporation, which is now being dismantled by this

Government. It is being given a deadly soporific in the form of a tax levied illegally. The Gas and Fuel Corporation is like a dog with a can tied to its tail; the faster it runs, the louder the can rattles. 1 invite honorable members to ask any lawyer in Melbourne what is the position in regard to the tax on the Corporation? It is an excise. If one asks the Government, one does not receive an answer.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! Mr. Galbally is reflecting on a vote of the House, and 1 suggest that he should not pursue that line of argument.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.Thank you, Mr. President. Everyone in this community knows that on the issue of natural gas the Government will procrastinate and equivocate until after the State elections. Sir Henry Bolte on gas is the modern counterpart of Christopher Columbus, who did not know where he was going or where he had come from. All he knew was tha t he was going somewhere-he hoped-on borrowed money.

I wish to state one or two principles. First, 1 ought to say that nobody in this community is so naive as to believe that Victorian consumers will be supplied with cheaper gas.

The Hon. G. W. THOM.-GO on!

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I did not think even Mr. Thorn, who is of simple, rustic habits, would believe that. Already the price of gas has been raised. Whatever money the State lacks, if there is any small margin between what the people are paying now and what they might have paid under manufactured gas, Sir Henry Bolte will take up the slack. Do not let us fool the people. 1 wish to enunciate one or two principles.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL.-Do you know what they are?


The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not going to engage in a debate on principles with my great friend, Mr. Nicol. Gas, water and electricity ought to be publicly owned. I am not suggesting for a moment that that list is exclusive. The people of Victoria have long since decided that it would be unwise to leave these essential services in non-public ownership. That was decided in connexion with electricity in 1919. Prior to that time, there were hosts of electricity corporations and supply companies in Victoria, and one can still see relics of them in the tramways at Bendigo and Ballarat.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Would you wipe out municipal electrical undertakings?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.----One such undertaking is conducted by the Melbourne City Council. It is part of the charter of the State Electricity Commission, by Act of Parliament, that it shall take over all such undertakings. I have 40 years of progress to support my contention. In 1919, the great Sir John Monash was appointed to unearth the brown coal fields at Yallourn, and I pay tribute to him. Does the Government want to change the situation? Sir Henry Bolte does. All I need say about that is that it is now too late to put the clock back.

The second principle-with apologies to Mr. Nicol-is that nothing should be permitted to obstruct the immediate use of natural gas for public purposes. We have waited for two years. If agreement is lacking as to the price to be paid to EssoBHP, let the gas flow, and let the price be submitted to arbitration to enable a fair price to be paid to those who discovered the gas, to whom I pay full tribute-all power to their elbow. How long would it have been before the gas in Bass Strait had been discovered by Sir Henry Bolte and his paltry Government? I pay tribute to the people who discovered the gas, and I believe they are entitled to be

paid a fair price. In case it may be thought that it is an outrageous suggestion that we should use the gas and that the price should await a determination of some tribunal I point out that there is many a precedent for such a proposal-in war and peace.

My third proposition, or principle -if that is not too strong a word-is that where the land or possessions of a citizen are required for public purposes, it is taken, with the consent of Parliament, by the giving of a notice under the State or Commonwealth law. This is called a notice of acquisition. I have in mind the occasion on which recently the Australian Broadcasting Commission went into Ripponlea and said, cc This is our land" and the actions of the Education Department, which says, cc We want this land". We assume that in doing this, these authorities act properly-not capriciously or in a despotic fashion. Once that notice is given--on the very day that it is

. given-the land or property becomes the property of the Government and available for immediate use. Compensation is fixed by the courts and is not allowed to stand in the way of the public interest. The public interest here-the immediate use of natural gas-should override all other considerations.

Would the Esso-BHP people be upset if that were done? By no means. They would prefer the judgment of a competent tribunal to the shilly-shallying that is going on with this Government. They have met about twenty times, with Sir Henry Bolte holding something up his sleeve all the time. Sir Henry has not been honest with the people of Victoria on this issue of natural gas. It was discovered two years ago. Why is it not flowing into the pipes of industry and homes to-day as it ought to be? What other alternative can be proposed after twenty meetings? This may go on for years. I hope I have given our party's broad


general views on this matter. We intend to vote for this motion. We believe the public has been misled, misguided-

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-And sold out.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I will not say that, but we think it is high time the public knew what was going on in these negotiations and how the Government is deliberately planning to hold over the development of natural gas until after the next State elections. I shall leave you to draw your own conclusions, Mr. President.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-1 listened

with interest to the Minister for Local Government in the hope that I might glean some ray of sunshine, but I do not think the Minister allayed our fears to any extent.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.He made them worse.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.That is true, because he did not give any indication that the Government would act strongly in relation to this problem. At the outset of his remarks, the Minister said that there was a great future potential of areas where more gas might be found and that its use would be tremendous. The experts have informed us that the natural gas is there, and undoubtedlv there will be tremendous demand for it when it is made available to the consumer. Then the Minister went on to narrate the delays that have occurred. My colleague, Mr. May, moved his motion to-night because of the Government's delay in reaching finality on the question of natural gas. Surely we are going to obtain the gas even if agreement on every point cannot be reached at the outset.

Two factors have not been mentioned ·so far to-night. I join with other speakers in congratulating the discoverers of natural gas on the work that they have carried out. However, I point out that they made

their discovery under a lease which they obtained from this Government for a mere pittance. It was already anticipated by the experts that gas would be found in this particular shelf and in other areas that have been leased. The people of Victoria have waited for years for the discovery of natural gas. Over the past 30 years, exploration companies have been engaged all over Australia trying to find oil or natural gas in commercial quantities, and it was thought that a discovery of natural gas would be made off the Victorian coast. Long-term leases were granted over large areas for a mere pittance.

Surely some conditions were laid down at that time, so that the Government would have some say in the future. I do not know whether the Minister knows what the conditions were, but he has not informed the House. Then the gas was discovered, and the companies began to stand over the Government and to demand their price. The Government says that it wants a price that will enable the consumer to benefit by a reasonable reduction in his gas bill. The Minister has correctly stated that there have been several meetings, but that although some progress has. been made a decision has not been reached. So the distribution of the gas is held up. A decision might not be made for two years.

The Premier and Treasurer has been vocal enough. The honorable gentleman said that he would get a quick decision, but he is not making any progress. Surely the preparatory work for distribution should not be held up because of this. As Mr. Galbally said, "Let the oil flow." In my district, when a dam was being constructed water was flowing over properties before the compensation payable to the owners had been determined. Surely the price is a secondary detail, and it should be possible to get the gas into the pipelines before it is determined.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-The Government is dealing with the "big boys ".


The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.That might be SO, but I am discussing the motion, which concerns the delay in getting on with the distribution of the gas. The Minister referred to the necessity for agreement between the Commonwealth and the States, but that relates to the question: Who is to receive the royalties? It concerns the connecting up of the various lines. Are we not to do anything in this State if the other States are not prepared to come to the party? Agreement has already been reached on the 10 per cent. royalty. Surely this should not prevent us from getting on to the next step.

If Queensland, New South Wales and South Australia are not prepared to finalize the matter, surely we in Victoria should not stop. We did not stop the State Electricity Commission from extending its electricity supplies throughout Victoria because we could not make an arrangement with the other States to supply electricity interstate. We have supplied power interstate and have received it from the Snowy mountains scheme. Various financial arrangements were made. Surely we should not allow ourselves to be held at ransom by the other States because they want to get some concession from Victoria. That is a very weak argument for holding up our development. This should not stop Victoria's programme from proceeding.

The Minister referred to Dr. Hetherington's report, in which some important points were laid down concerning the correct price structure. Some parts of Dr. Hetherington's report are not acceptable to either the Minister or my party. All the emphasis should not be laid on the points on which we might agree. Only a few weeks ago, in another debate, the legal members of this House quoted various sections of the same statement to support their respective arguments. I could quote a number of points out of Dr. Hetherington's report to bolster my own argument. Dr. Hetherington made

some important points, but he also made some with which neither we nor the Minister would agree. The first important point is that the consumer is not receiving the gas.

Secondly, and most important to the Treasurer, the royalties are not yet being paid. The sooner the Treasurer can get his hands on this money, the sooner he will get out of his financial difficulties. But no one seems to be worrying about this. Last Thursday, it was reported in the Herald that the State was losing millions of dollars in royalties because of the hold-up that was occurring. The sooner the gas flows, the sooner the royalties will start to roll in. The Minister concluded, in dealing with the price, that a solution to the problem was in sight. It has been in sight for a long time, but it does not seem to be getting much nearer.

Why should the whole project be held up until unanimous agreement is reached between all the States and the Commonwealth, and a price is determined? We all know the difficulties about getting unanimity on financial agreements between the States and the Commonwealth. On this score, the matter could be delayed ?ntil next century! Other State proJects have proceeded without worrying about the price. The price has been settled later. An important feature of the matter is the position of the Gas and Fuel Corporation. Probably the Country Party is a little biased, because it was responsible for the formation of this organization.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.Do not forget the part played by the Labor Party.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I agree that it played an important part. There was chaos in regard to gas supplies for Melbourne over a long period until the Gas and Fuel Corporation was established and set up the Lurgi plant at Morwell, which has been very successful. N ow there is talk of some other statutory body, if we can believe what we read in the

1164 Natural [COUNCIL.] Ga,~.

press, to take over construction of the pipe-line. My party considers this to be a ridiculous situation. Imagine the chaos there would be if the State Electricity Commission produced electricity and another authority constructed the supply lines throughout the State.

At present, an increase in electricity supplies or a variation in a contract requires only an approach to the district officer or the State Electricity Commission to discuss the matter. One deals with only one body. The State Electricity Commission has had some difficulties over the years. Reference was made to certain municipalities which buy electricity in bulk and retail it to local consumers. My party is strongly opposed to this situation, and believes the Commission should have a full charter in this respect.

There have been some difficulties in regard to finance over the years, and the self-help scheme has enabled the State Electricity Commission to expand its activities. Surely the Gas and Fuel Corporation will not have one pipeline from Morwell, while another authority constructs and maintains another pipe-line. Will the existing pipe-line be taken over by the proposed new authority? Will the Lurgi plant be scrapped, or will it be retained, and the other authority with separate powers and duties be enabled to provide gas wherever it likes in the State? Will not the Gas and Fuel Corporation have some say as to where it shall operate? Surely we will not have two corporations concerned with the supply and distribution of the commodity known as gas. I cannot see any logic in such a proposal.

The Minister has not given the House any information-probably rightly so because he has a Bill coming forward. The Government has changed its mind on several occasions. First, the Premier and Treasurer said that some $80,000,000 would be required, and that some company with overseas capital would

The Ron. I. A. Swinburne.

be formed. Now the honorable gentleman has produced some other proposal. We shall know more about this when the legislation . is introduced. Suffice it to say, we do not believe it is necessary to set up any other organization than the one that is already in existence and which is successfully producing and distributing gas. Since natural gas was discovered, the Government has been endeavouring to create an idea in the minds of the people that it would be necessary to have some outside organization to control it. We have never been able to find out whether this is the result of the influence of the oil companies or is a matter of Government policy. Frankly, I do not believe the distribution of this commodity to the consumer should be other than under the control of the Government.

Earlier, my Leader said that, over the years, we have fought for State control of various commoditieswater, electricity, gas, and so onfor the benefit of the people. Over the years, the State has always been able to find the finance necessary to advance these services. I do not know of any corporate body under State legislation which has not received a good response when seeking public loans. I realize that some loans have not been filled, but most of them have been and in many instances they have been over-subscribed. The people could be asked to provide money for this purpose, just as they are being asked to subscribe to a State Electricity Commission loan tha t is advertised in the press to-day.

Finally, I support Mr. May's motion and my Leader's submissions concerning the delays which have occurred. The Government is continuing to frustrate the people, and is using delaying tactics for some purpose which we have not been able to ascertain. The Minister has merely said that agreement is in sight, and that it is hoped to obtain agreement between the Commonwealth and the States. Neither of the honorable


gentleman's statements carries much conviction. We wonder why this delay is necessary. The gas was discovered off the coast of Victoria in February, 1965. We feel that this House should ask the Government to press on and make an early decision on the distribution of the gas, so that the consumers will receive it as quickly as possible.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) .-1 support the motion so ably moved by my colleague, Mr. May, which in turn was supported by Mr. Swinburne and Mr. Galbally. In speaking of the failure of the Government and the procrastination of the Government in dealing with something of great value to our natural heritage, some important points were raised. In December two years ago, No.1 well was developed, and in February, two months later, gas was found. However, negotiations are still proceeding as to its development. Following this discovery, two senior State officers-the Director of Finance, Mr. Coates, and the Secretary of Mines, Mr. Condon-were sent to Canada to investigate developments in this field, and to ascertain the ways and means of exploiting the find. These gentlemen were capable of making decisions and of reporting to the Government what they learnt overseas. Further, a Ministry of Fuel and Power was created, and this portfolio was allotted to a senior member of the Government.

With all of these capable people working in the interests of Victoria for the development of natural gas, it is hard to understand why an agreement on its development and distribution has not yet been reached. Throughout their provinces, honorable members are frequently asked what the Government is going to do. lt is nearly two years since the Premier stated that consumers would receive great benefits from the production of natural gas and that it would halve their present bills. We were told that the supply. of natural

gas would give a great boost to industry throughout Victoria, including the rural areas.

The people in the eastern part of Victoria decided that they should not be left out. For too long the people in the far reaches of Victoria have been the scapegoats; they have lived in the backblocks and have put up with many inconveniences. In natural gas they see an opportunity of assisting their development, which, in turn, will mean increased revenue for Victoria. A conference of interested persons, comprising 56 delegates, was held at Orbost. These people represented shires from Sale to Wollongong. They discussed the ramifications that could arise from the development of natural gas; they were enthusiastic, they put their thoughts into words and they made many suggestions as a group. lt was generally agreed that industry would follow the pipe-line for natural gas. lt was reliably stated that the development of electricity into the outlying areas would be an economic proposition if it followed in close proximity to the gas pipe-line. The normal th.ree-line transmission carries 22,000 volts, and this economic use would ensure the full 22,000 volts reaching the outer areas of the State with the aid of booster stations, which, in turn, would reduce the cost of reticulating electricity to the remote areas.

The people from the eastern coastal area of Victoria and the southern regions of New South Wales to Wollongong believe there is great potential for the development of their areas. For years, those people thought of forming a new State. Although this would cut them off from existing services, in time there would be the economic possibility of their being self-reliant in many natural resources. Along with the development of natural gas, there would be the coming of all types of industry. The Latrobe Valley has everything-natural development with all the natural resources of water, electricity through the State


Electricity Commission, and the related raw materials. Yet it is proposed that this gas shall be taken by pipe-line to Melbourne.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Via the La trobe Valley.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-That is so, but it will not create decentralization.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It should do so.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.Eventually it may. If this gas is to be treated in Melbourne, not many secondary industries will become established in the rural areas. It should be realized that in the utilization of natural gas valuable byproducts such as nitrogenous fertilizers are produced, and these could be used for the development of agriculture. This aspect should be examined.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-That will happen.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-I doubt it. The Federal member for Macarthur representing the south coast area of New South Wales, Mr. Jeff Bates, spoke at the conference at Orbost. He was vocal in his appreciation of any plan which would bring natural gas via the east coast route. This would not prevent its being brought to Melbourne, but it would help to develop the eastern area of Victoria and the southern regions of New South Wales. He pointed out that, geographically, Australia was in a position to take a lead in the south-west Pacific area, and that the finding of natural gas in several parts of the continent would tend to establish more impressively Australia's ability to become a major industrial and productive force in the Southern Hemisphere. He also stated that this conference was of importance, because it dealt with a product for which' other interests would be striving. There is no doubt about that. There has been a great controversy on who

will distribute, own and sell the product. Mr. Bates said that no doubt the winner of the fight would get the pipe-line and the gas.

Sir PERCY BYRNEs.-And the plums.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-That is so. Mr. Bates also said that the production of nitrogenous fertilizer as a by-product of natural gas could give a fabulous impetus to agricultural development in Australia. There are also many other uses to which the byproducts could be put. He offered the fullest possible support of the Federal Government to the endeavours of the conference, and he wished every success to any proposal for the lay-. ing of a gas supply main along the south-coast route.

A publication issued by the Petroleum Information Bureau of Australia, entitled, Petroleum Search in Australia, contains some interesting and significant remarks. It states-

The highlight of petroleum exploration in Australia in the first ten months of 1965 was the discovery in Bass Strait of a natural gas field on the Gippsland Shelf, off the South-East coast of Victoria. This discovery was especially notable, firstly because EssoBHP encountered commercial quantities of gas in each of the first two off shore wells drilled in Australia, and secondly because it seems likely to be proved as a major gas field located close to sizeable markets ... Widespread utilization of natural gas would also confer great benefits on the Australian economy. A valuable new source of energy would be made available, new industries generated, and fresh employment opportunities created.

When Mr. Clarke spoke to the motion for the adoption of an Address-in-Reply to the Governor's Speech, he referred to the· subject of royalties. The important matters referred to in the extract I have quoted are raised by people who are in a position to know the true position, but their remarks are completely disregarded. Some matters were raised as to whether procrastination would help the oil companies with their taxation problems. Without fear of contradiction, I venture to say that this does help the oil companies in their taxation problems because, by declaring it a commercial


proposition, they immediately lose many of the available concessions and exploration benefits. Therefore, Esso would be reluctant to declare it a commercial field until the company was in a position to launch itself on a large-scale basis.

Another interesting article appears in News From Melbourne. I do not know who promotes this paper, but apparently it is a reputable magazine.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It ought to be; the Government sponsors it to the extent of $140,000 a year.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-Issue No. 91 of September, 1966, contains an article headed "A Stake in SeaBed Gas, Oil Search ", which states-

The United Kingdom-controlled Burmah Oil group, through its Australian subsidiary, has bought a big stake in the search for natural gas and oil off the Gippsland coast of Victoria.

Woodside (Lakes Entrance) Oil Company has sold a 31 per cent. interest to Burmah Oil Australia Limited for £360,000, to help finance its exploration over the next two years.

Woodside and its partners expect to start drilling in the sea off Gippsland in December. A rig, now being fitted out, will be towed across the Pacific from America.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-You are not hitting the nail on the head!

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-I was going to observe that it was of some significance. The article continues-

Other partners in the Woodside enterprise are Continental Oil of America, Australian Oil and Gas Corporation, and Planet Oil.

If those people are prepared to come here at this expense, the finding of natural gas must be a profitable proposition.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-They will not lose money.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-That is so. The Australian Newsletter of April, 1966-members of Parliament receive most of these types of papers from time to time, and it is necessary to look at them because they some-

times contain items of importanceincludes an article headed, "New Natural Gas Find Adds to Bright Outlook." Of course, this bright outlook has been shadowed somewhat by the delay which has been referred to by my colleagues. The article states-

The latest find from Gippsland Shelf No. 4 well is producing the largest gas flow so far reported off Victoria's coast.

This appears to run counter to the earlier suggestion that there would be insufficient gas to put down a large-scale project. Then this article, which I should say was authentic, goes on to say-

Sir Henry Bolte, Premier of Victoria, said more natural gas strikes could be expected. Sir Henry said the strikes from off-shore drilling were following a pattern. "They will not end with just these wells. We will find more and more," he said.

Apparently, someone has assured the Premier.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Dr. Hetherington said that in his report.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-Yes. The article continues-

Agreeing with the Premier was Dr. Charles Hetherington . . . . Dr. Hetherington called the latest strike a "first-class discovery: by world standards."

Esso Exploration Australia Incorporated, which also discovered the earlier wells, reported the new well had produced flows at rates between 3.5 million and 11.5 million cubic feet a day in production tests. Gippsland Wells No. 1 and 2, discovered last year and labelled "commercial", have produced flows of up to 10.5 million cubic feet per day.

As I said earlier, this is an important find; it has been justified as a commercial proposition, and it should be proceeded with forthwith. The article also states-

Reports indicate that sufficient quantities would permit Victoria to look across its border to New South Wales for additional markets. This was the point mentioned earlier when I was referring to the meeting held at Orbost and attended by members of Parliament from Victoria and New South Wales, and representatives from municipalities in both States.

1168 Natural lCOUNCIL.] Gas.

The pIpmg of gas must be a profitable proposition because it was proposed, in the original stages, that gas from Mereenie Palm Valley might be worth piping through Broken Hill to Melbourne, 1,300 miles, which is a long way to pipe gas to a market, especially when we think in terms of a 36-in. pipe-line. By comparison with that distance, this find is 150 miles from Melbourne and 450 miles from Sydney, so it is possible that, under these conditions, it would be a good proposition for Victoria to supply both areas.

If the Government delays the development of natural gas much longer, it will be selling out to the other States, which will come into Victoria from all angles to supply the border towns; consequently, this State will find itself with a very small market for a field which will produce enough for the whole of Australia. At this stage, I regret that we have not something more definite in sight.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province).-This debate revolves around a motion moved by Mr. May on the problems associated with the use of natural gas, the construction and maintenance of pipe-lines to deliver the gas, and the distribution of gas to the consumers. Four members of the Country Party have spoken to the motion, and I think it is a truism to say that the wording of the motion is more modest than is the criticism offered by those speakers. The Labor Party believes that the motion is infinitely more modest than the Government is entitled to expect.

The present cost of gas produced by the Gas and Fuel Corporation is about 15 cents a therm, more or less, because there are overheads which have to be taken into account. Dr. Hetherington anticipates that the output of natural gas will be 175,000,000 cubic feet of gas, which means roughly 920,000 therms a day. If only 250 days are allowed for in a year-the life of the field that

was first opened up, at that stage, was estimated to be about 25 years -at the rate of 170,000,000 cubic feet per day, the value of that one well would be about $860,000,000. When it is considered that there will be further fields and possibly other wells within this single field, one can appreciate what is involved and why the large vested interests in the community are "out for a kill ".

The Minister for Local Government made the usual reply that one expects. I could be kind enough to say that I think the Minister has missed his vocation; instead of being a legal man, he should have been a medical man, and in that case we would have taken more kindly to his soothing bedside manner. However, we do not take so kindly to it in the present situation, because this motion has given the ,Government a chance to make a declaration as to its attitude and intentions in respect of natural gas in one House of Parliament.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Nothing came forth.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. -On behalf of the Government, what did the Minister give us? Nothing-in fact, he gave us less than nothing. He said nothing to reassure the people of this community.

Mr. Swinburne suggested that the thought of receiving royalties should encourage the Government to expedite its dealings.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The Government does not want money.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. -I was coming to that point. This is mere chicken feed to the interests that are behind this Government, and behind this Government's colleagues in another Parliament. They have sold out Australia in every sense of the word and we will be like the Aborigine~ at Lake Tyers; we will be the tenants, and the foreign interests and the larger interests throughout the community will be controlling our destinies. Parliament will, in fact, be a nonentity.


On the question of secrecy, by various press statements we have been told by the Premier that everything in the garden is lovely, and we are proceeding to happy conclusions -in effect, the State is facing a new era of development. This is what we have been told and, of course, at different intervals stickynosed people ask questions. On one occasion, I asked whether the agreement between the companies and the Government would be laid on the table of the Library, but the reply was that this was a confidential and private agreement which should not be disclosed to the people in whose interests it is supposed to have been made.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-Just like the Alcoa agreement.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD. -That is so. It is certainly not the type of secret that the Government discloses, because it involves the Government's influential .friends. In this case, a shroud of secrecy is imposed. The Minister's statement has done nothing to clear the air, and I do not suppose it will even go beyond this House because others elsewhere will ensure that no one else is made aware of this debate.

It has been stated that the negotiations have been proceeding .for two years and that twenty meetings have been held. Who knows, the 21st might yet be successful. If it is not, there can always be the 22nd and the 122nd meeting. If the negotiations continue long enough, somebody will be worn down. Because af the Government's complete secrecy and its failure to disclose its major policies in regard to the development of natural gas, it is obvious that the Government has sent the Gas and Fuel Corporation into these negotiations with one hand tied behind its back through a lack of knowledge of the Government's future programme. At least, the suggestion of the introduction of a Bill somewhere else gives some clue to what may take place.

I stress that gas supply is a service and is not a commodity which one private producer markets in the sense of marketing and bargaining with a consumer, and perhaps faCing competition in all its meanings. The suppliers of gas, water and electricity are more or less debarred from competition and, over the years, Parliament has realized that these services could easily constitute a dangerous monopoly and therefore should not be in the hands of private companies. However, the present occupants of the Treasury Bench are somewhat backward in their thinking, and there has been a slowing down of that policy over the past few years. Parliament has invariably adopted the attitude that the supply of these services is a form of public service and that there is no reason why the supply of gas should not remain in that category.

The proposal to retain the. Gas and Fuel Corporation as the retailing authority for the time being is, as Mr. Swinburne said, a means of getting revenue for the Government from the 3 per cent. turnover tax, but at this stage it remains only as a shield for the greater dangers that lie beyond the retailing of gas within the metropolitan area. The Gas and Fuel Corporation Act does not constitute the authority with a monopoly right. The Corporation has certain rights if it chooses to exercise them and if the Parliament of the day approves. Every acquisition of an undertaking by the Corporation must be approved by Parliament, and it is not likely that this Government will approve of the acquisition of further gas undertakings. So, the Corporation has no chance of expansion in that direction.

The original franchise of the Metropolitan Gas Company was within a radius of 8 miles from the General Post Office, excluding the municipalities of Brighton, Williamstown and Footscray. At one time, Brighton was served by two companies which subsequently amalgamated and became the Brighton

1170 Nf,1,tural [COUNCIL.] Gas.

Gas Company. That company, in turn, was taken over in 1950 by the Gas and Fuel Corporation. However, the Gas and Fuel Corporation could ga~n additional developments by gomg beyond that area. The Colonial Gas Association settled in the Footscray and Williamstown areas, and then later at Box Hill, and was given a formidable territory. This was purely a private company with no particular franchise except that granted by the municipalities. So, in the wider sense, there is no franchise. It is obvious that that company, if there is to be a pipe carrier conveying gas from the producer with the right to sell to anybody, will be in the same position as the Gas and Fuel Corporation. Whilst it might be perpetuated in the areas in which it is at present operating, the EssoBHP take-over group will be permitted to sell gas from its carrier within the areas in which the Colonial Gas Association operates.

However, there are other dangers inherent in what is proposed. It appears from the tortuous negotiations which have been taking place regarding the price of gas that the Esso-BHP group will be permitted to charge any price it likes to anyone. By this means, it could render the private companies unprofitable and drive them out of business. Perhaps in the case of municipal undertakings, the price would have to be approved by the Governor in Council, and we know how easy it would be for this Government to give approval to any price. Thus, the producers could monopolize all the other gas operators in this State, and that was not the intention of the Gas and Fuel Corporation Act of 1950. Its purpose was to create a public authority which would eventually take over any gas undertaking which proved to be unprofitable.

The distribution of gas is a completely new field for the Esso-BHP group, and it will provide the group with a new means of fleecing the public. If a carrier company is

The Hon. Samuel Merrifield.

granted the right to convey gas from the producer to the consumer, there will be nothing to stop the Esso-BHP group from asking the carrier company to install a main to any single, large industrial user and sell direct to it. That would leave the way open for the producer to enter into its own price arrangements and make or break competition with the Gas and Fuel Corporation. The result would be a complete hotch-potch, and could affect the sale of gas throughout Victoria.

In addition, it is obvious that there are some rich and substantial pickings in other fields, particularly in regard to by-products, and under the Government's proposals the producer will get the benefits of those pickings. However, they will not be the least of the pickings because, as members of the Country Party know, farmers will have to pay dearly for fertilizers which are a by-product of gas refining. This means that the livelihood of many country people will be affected.

At the moment, there is only one producing well, but in the future there could be others owned by different companies. I suppose it is inevitable that they will be entitled to have their gas carried through the pipe-lines, and they will offer some form of competition if they can secure sufficient markets. The position at the moment is that the initial producing company is trying to force agreements by which it can tie the hands of the present distributors, mainly the Gas and Fuel Corporation. However, everything has been so secretive that we do not know just what the Government is doing.

All I know is that all the moves made up to date confirm the worst suspicions that members of the Labor Party could have. It is likely that the Gas and Fuel Corporation will be sold out and put into the hands of private enterprise, which will mean that the public will eventually pay dearly. It is also obvious from the dealings which the Corporation is


having with the Esso-BHP group that it is being asked to pay a price deemed by the Corporation to be excessive. If the Esso-BHP group is given power to sell to large industrial users direct, without going through the Corporation, those private bodies that are the favourites of the Esso-BHP group will probably get their gas at a rate subsidized by the consumers served by the Corporation in the metropolitan area and to some extent by the consumers in the country.

When a public utility has control of the distribution of gas, it is possible to strike an average price for the whole of the State, and country people who normally might be asked to pay a higher price because of the cost of supplying the service receive the benefit of this average price. That is the position that applies with the State Electricity Commission at the moment. If private enterprise controlled the distribution of gas, the same guarantee would not apply. The result would be that country people would have to pay more for their gas in the same way as they are charged higher prices for other services.

For that reason, the Government's manreuvres constitute a danger both to metropolitan and to country people. Instead of an era of prosperity from which the people will benefi t, there will be an era in which private companies will extort some unfair returns from the public.· For that reason, my party goes further than the motion contemplates, and condemns the Government for its attitude, particularly its secrecy and intention to sell out the public of Victoria.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern Province).-Mr. May's motion for the adjournment of the House has given honorable members an opportunity to discuss natural gas, a subject in which we are all interested at present. I suppose at the least it conveys to the Government

the fact that there is a feeling of some sense of urgency about getting on with the exploitation of natural gas which has been found off the Victorian coast. The Government is faced with a motion which, in the form in which it has been moved, appears to be quite innocent, but in fact the debate has developed into a type of censure of the Government for its failure to do a number of things.

I could sum them up by saying that the Government is charged with having failed to arrive at a price for gas and that it has failed to get agreement with the Commonwealth and the States on the ownership of off-shore gas. It is apparently alleged also that the Government is carrying -out some destructive action against the Gas and Fuel Corporation and intends to do the wrong thing about the piping of gas. I say immediately that so far as any challenge to the Government about the piping and distribution of gas is concerned, this is not the time to make the challenge. I have read in the newspapers that a Bill is to be introduced relating to the piping of gas, and I believe the debate on that measure will be the appropriate opportunity to attack the Government's policy on natural gas in Victoria. I hope that when honorable members know what is in the Bill, they will debate it and vote for it on Its merits and that, if it is wrong, they will vote against it. If the Government justifies its policy, the House should vote honestly on the Bill. Of course, I realize that in October, 1966, members are a little jittery concerning the events of April, 1967.

It is easy to decide questions on party political lines and on lines which might perhaps be most popular in the provinces of honorable members. However, this matter is so important that, when the relevant Bill is before the House, it should be debated and decided on its merits. I shall say no more about censuring the Government on this question. If the Government is to be censured,


honorable members should first study the Bill and hear the Government's reasons for introducing it in its particular form. I shall have no part in censuring the Government on a Bill which is not yet before the House.

As to the failure of the Government to obtain agreement with the Commonwealth and the other States concerning the rights of off-shore gas and oil, I find some difficulty in censuring anyone party for failing to reach agreement with six other parties. Agreement under such circumstances is not easy. I assume, as the Minister for Local Government said, that a real Commonwealth-States battle is again proceeding. The problem, of course, is a most difficult one. To resolve it as a matter of law, it is necessary to trace the history of other colonies in the Commonwealth and to examine the effect of the Commonwealth Constitution, but then one gets involved in the misty fields of international law and the question of how far the rights of a State extend. It gets away from a question of true law as a lawyer knows it, down to the stage where people make certain claims. Norway, for example, makes claims which extend from its indented coastline and off-shore islands hundreds of miles out to sea; some States claim to exercise rights 50 miles out to sea, whereas other States get back practically to the 3-mile limit. There is no legal rule covering this question. A country may make claims, but these are not effective unless other countries recognize them.

I hope agreement on this matter will be reached as quickly as possible because, if it is left to a decision in law, it will go on for years. The only solution is to reach agreement, and I hope there is some spirit of compromise abroad because, after all, we are members not only of the State of Victoria, but of the' Commonwealth. I do not propose to enter into the difficult question of financial relationships with the Commonwealth. If we end up by owning the

The Hon. P. V. Feltham.

oil and the gas in the waters off the coast, we will own it either as a Commonwealth or a State right.

On the question of arriving at a price, I agree with previous speakers that the determination of the actual price could make a big difference to the price that the consumer will pay for gas. I understand from the Minister for Local Governmentall honorable members realize this -that the Gas and Fuel Corporation is battling for the consumer. I do not intend. to stop the Corporation from battling. I suppose the Corporation could throw in the towel, as it were, to-morrow, in which case there would be no row; it could say that it would pay the price asked for by Esso-BHP, and that would be the end of the fight. It is obvious that if the price has not been settled, the Corporation is still battling. Do honorable members wish to stop the Corporation from battling in this regard? I do not want to do so.

I accept Mr. Chadwick's statement -it was published in the newspapers -that there has been a large area of agreement and that the parties are very close to settling the dispute. The only reason why it has not been settled is that Mr. Chadwick is still holding out on behalf of the consumers. There has been a suggestion that the Government is not backing the Corporation or is even almost stabbing it in the back. I hope the House realizes that the Corporation is virtually owned by the Government. The House will recall that every ordinary share in the Corporation is owned by the Government of Victoria on behalf of the people; 90 per cent. of the preference shares are now owned by the Government. Why then should the Government want to destroy its own instrumentality?

It has been suggested that the Corporation is a highly efficient organization which the Government is trying to destroy or prevent from operating successfully, but the Corporation will never make profits-it is not intended


to do so. If honorable members examine the Corporation's history, they will see that it has never paid Is. on dividends on its ordinary shares, and it was never intended that it should do so. If I am incorrect in this assertion, the Minister for Local Government will correct me. The reason is that it is selling its gas to the consumers at the lowest possible price which will enable it to meet its wages bill. The House should understand that the Corporation is not intended to make profits.

I do not wish to revert to a question that has already been settled by this House, but people speak of levies on the Corporation that it will not be able to meet, but it is not intended that it should make a profit; it is intended to supply gas to consumers at the lowest possible price. I have no doubt that when the larger question as to whether the Corporation should make a profit out of natural gas is considered, the same old question will arise. However, we do not want the Corporation to make a profit.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-We want the Corporation to control the distribution of natural gas in Victoria for the benefit of the people.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-When the Bill to which I previously referred comes before the House, I shall look foward to Mr. Todd making one of his· best speeches. It will be a major Bill, and 1 hope the House will debate it on its merits. Natural gas will give a tremendous boost to Victoria, and honorable members must deal with the relevant measure properly when it comes before the House.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .-1 lOIn with my colleagues in supporting the motion which was moved by Mr. May on the very important subject of the development of natural gas in Victoria. The reply furnished on behalf of the Government by the Minister for Local Government was one of the

Session 1966.-41

weakest replies 1 have heard from the honorable gentleman in a debate of this type. The Government stands condemned because of its lack of initiative in the development of natural gas in this State. Mr. Feltham said that all honorable members are concerned with the development of our natural gas resources, which is an important and urgent matter.

Even the Premier, upon his return from overseas in August, gave certain assurances through the press and said that he was frustrated and annoyed because very little progress had been made and no agreement had been reached concerning the price to be paid for the gas. The Premier assured the people that he would immediately intervene and have this matter settled. The Herald of 10th August reported statements of the Premier, under the heading "Gas decision in fortnight-Mr. Bolte". The report reads-

.. The State Cabinet next Monday would start to work out the Government's policy on the development of Victoria's natural gas resources ", Sir Henry Bolte said to-day. "It was important that the Government should make known as soon as possible its policy on how the fields should be opened up ", he said. cc We may not be able to clean up everything on Monday, but I expect to announce our policy within a fortnight. "

In August, the Premier was perturbed at the delays that had taken place and the urgency of the situation, and he assured the public that the Government's policy would be announced within a fortnight. Surely, the Country Party should not be condemned, as it has been to-night by Government members and by our former colleague, Mr. Feltham, for moving this motion so that this important matter may be debated.

The statements of the Premier in August were not the only instances of his concern about this problem and the urgency of the development of natural gas in Victoria. 1 give the honorable gentleman full marks because, at that stage, 1 believe he was genuine and sincerely desirous of letting the people of the State know precisely what was the Government's


policy and what would be the price that consumers would pay for the gas. In the Herald of 25th August, there appeared another interesting article under the heading, "Talks on Gas Next Week-Bolte says delay holds up plans". Of course, there has been a good deal of talk since this article appeared, but no decision has been reached. The article reads-

cc We want to know what is happening and what must be done to get an. agreement ", the Premier said.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The Premier would support the motion if he were present in this Chamber.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-I am trying to persuade some of the Premier's colleagues to support it. Normally, they are loyal to their Leader, and I shall be anxious to see whether they will be loyal to his utterances. The article further quotes the Premier as saying-

The parties say they are not deadlocked but they don't seem to be getting anywhere.

As a result of this situation, the Premier called a conference in the Cabinet room between the Gas and Fuel Corporation, the Broken Hill. Proprietary Company Limited and Esso Exploration Incorporated, together with the Minister for Fuel and Power, Mr. Reid. What has come out of this conference? Where are we going? The people are entitled to know what is happening; hence my party is seeking more convincing assurances than those received from the Minister for Local Government.

As has been said many times in this House, the finding of natural gas is very important to this State and to the Commonwealth as a whole. It could open a new era in the development of Victoria. It could be the means of bringing about true decentralization in this State instead of the lip service which is paid to that· principle. The Country Party is committed to the principle that the Gas and Fuel Corporation should be both the pipe-line and the distributing authority. When my party formed the Government with the support of

another party, it provided for the development of the Lurgi process for producing gas from brown coal. It did not bring the brown coal to Melbourne for treatment but had it treated at the source of the raw material. To-day, Gippsland is one of the most rapidly developing areas of Victoria.

If the Gas and Fuel Corporation controlled the gas immediately it was delivered to the Gippsland coast, Gippsland could possibly become one of the most important areas in Australia. If the gas is to be controlled by some other statutory authority while it is in the pipe-lines, will the Gas and Fuel Corporation be able to tap the line at any place en route to sell the gas? How can we know whether another authority will pipe gas throughout Victoria, as could be expected of the Gas and· Fuel Corporation, and so encourage -the establishment all over the State of industries using gas? The new authority would not hand over its power to the Gas and Fuel Corporation. The Corporation is the proper body for both piping the gas and distributing it to the ultimate customers.

Mr. May put forward an excellent case, which is supported by members of both the Labor Party and the Country Party. The State is faced with an emergency, ~nd there is cause for concern. ·We have already waited twelve months for action on natural gas. As has been said in the press, and as Mr. Galbally has put it, surely we do not have to wait for another twelve months for agreement to be reached. On his return from overseas, Sir Henry Bolte said that, if agreement were not reached, the Government would step in. If agreement cannot be reached-and it is apparent that there is some strong reason for delay-surely the differences could be arbitrated upon after the gas is being used and progressively. extended throughout Victoria. .


The country areas should share in the benefits of the rich source of natural gas which has been found off the coast of Gippsland. My party believes that if a separate authority is formed to pipe the gas, the country areas-the far distant places as our friends on the Government benches call them-will be forgotten, simply because it may not be profitable to supply them. Mr. Feltham has said that the Gas and Fuel Corporation is not expected to make profits, but nobody knows what will be the constitution of any. new authority. Honorable members will be told to wait until the Bill is presented.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.The new authority will be only a carrier; it will not own the gas.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-That is so. The Gas and Fuel Corporation will have to go to it cap in hand to ask whether it can take off the gas where it wishes to sell it. This is a matter of urgency, and there was every justification for Mr. May to move an adjournment motion. In fact, the motion is in line with the thinking of the Premier. I believe that every member of the Cabinet is committed to this resolution because, if Sir Henry Bolte's statements to the press on the 10th August and 25th August are· true, as I take them to be, Cabinet is committed to dealing with this question as a matter of urgency, and must refrain from the procrastination which has been evident in the past.

The House divided on the motion for the adjournment of the House (the Hon. R. W. Mack in the chair)-

Ayes 15 Noes .16

Majority against the motion .. 1

Mr. Bradbury Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Cathie Mr. Clarke Mr. Knight Mr. Mansell Mr. May Mr. Merrifield

AyES.

Mr. O'Connell Mr. Swinburne Mr. Todd Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Elliot Mr. Hewson.

Mr. Byrne Mr. Dickie Mr. Feltham Mr. Garrett Mr. Gawith Mr. Gleeson Mr. Granter Mr. Grigg Mr. Gross

Mr. Galbally

NOES.

Mr. Hamer Mr. Nicol Mr. Snider Mr. Thorn Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Campbell Mr. Hunt.

PAIR.

I Mr. Chandler.

CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES (FINANCIAL) BILL.

. The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-


The purpose of this Bill is to incr~ase, from $180,000,000 to $200,000,000, the aggregate liability of .~he Treasurer with respect to the guaranteeing of loans raised by co-operative housing societies. Those of us who attended the historic reception on Friday night last will recall the remarks of President Johnson when he commented on the fact that Australia had a higher rate of home ownership than even the wealthy United States of America. One of the important factors in bringing about this state of affairs has been the spectacular growth of the cooperative housing so~iety .moveme~t since it was formed In thIS State In 1944. In this. period, the sum of $179,447,000 has been guarant~ed by the' Treasurer in conneXlOn with loans made by various financial institutions to co-operative housing societies. The amount of .$176,223,000 has been· borrowed in long-term loans, and $2,954,000 in short-term loans.

Honorable members may wonder why. short-term loans have been sought by co-operative housing societies in the knowledge that societies have a duration of some 29 or 30 years. These short-term loans have been in the form of bridging finance provided in anticipation of

1176 Go-operative Housing Societies [COUNCIL.] (Financial) Bill.

money coming from the Home Builders' Account. This has enabled prospective builders to start the construction of their homes a little earlier than otherwise would have been possible. The Registrar has exerc.ised a certain influence on societies obtaining this bridging finance to ensure that it does not go too far ahead, and has adopted a policy of approving of bridging finance for two years in anticipation of money coming from the Home Builders' Account. As honorable members are aware, the Home Builders' Account is a section of loan money received from the Commonwealth under the housing agreement and is repayable over a period of 53 years.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-How much money has now been made available by the Commonwealth Government to the Home Builders' Account?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The sum of $84,122,137 has been made available over the past ten years, and a further $9,600,000 will be provided this financial year-a total of $93,722,137.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.-That will be almost half the amount now under guarantee?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.That is so.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPovlcH.-Why cannot the Government obtain more money from private lending authorities?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The long-term loans raised from private sources are as follows:-

Commonwealth Bank State Savings Bank Private trading and

sa vings banks Insurance and life

assurance companies Friendly societies Superannuation funds

$ 75,590,000 39,935,000

43,670,000

9,070,000 1,450,000 3,150,000

Economic Development Fund of United States of America ..

Dutch Insurance Company

Miscellaneous

$

1,050,000

1,000,000 500,000

175,415,000

By way of explanation, the contributions from the Economic Development Fund of the United States of America and the Dutch Insurance Company were sent to Australia to enable Dutch migrants to be housed. The Government is particularly anxious to increase the borrowing from private institutions in Victoria to ensure that the same service tha t has been given by co-operative housing societies over the years is maintained in the future.

There has been a spectacular growth in co-operative housing over the past decade. In 1955, there were 280 co-operative housing societies; in 1963, there were 756 societies; and recently the number was 1,011. The Government, and I think all members of Parliament, are particularly anxious to ensure that the flow of money from all sources is maintained.

Up to date, 56,000 home-owners have received money froin co-operative housing societies, and a further 2,000 homes are in course of construction. It is also worthy of note . that this is the fourteenth occasion on which the guarantee provisions have been amended by Act of Parliament since the co-operative housing society movement was initiated in 1944, when the limit of the guarantee was set at $10,000,000.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Your party was not happy about the proposal in 1944.

The Hon. L .. H. S. THOMPSON.All I can say is that it is particularly happy about it now, and that has been the position since the Bolte Government came into office. This Bill is just a further contribution towards

Appeal Oosts Fund [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Amendment) Bill. 1177

ensuring that the flow of money from private sources is maintained so that societies will not become too dependent upon the Home Builders' Account.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-You are trying to make a story out of nothing.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The story is that since 1955 the number of co-operative housing societies has increased from 280 to more than L,OOO.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVIcH.-The Government took money from the Housing Commission.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Mack).-Order! The Minister should be allowed to make his secondreading speech without interruption. Other honorable members will be able to contribute when the second-reading debate is resumed.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.The Government has sponsored home ownership ever since it came into office, despite opposition from the other side of the House whenever a Bill of this type has been introduced. [ commend the Bill to the House as a significant contribution to the cooperative housing society movement. The Government believes that 95 per cent. of Victorians want to own their own homes and is prepared to do everything possible to enable them to do so.

On the motion of the Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debatel be adjourned ·until Tuesday, November 1.


The· Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-1 move-


This Bill sets out to amend the Appeal Costs Fund Act which was enacted by Parliament in 1964. It was new legis-

lation and it has been found to work extremely well. In fact, it covers a wider range of cases and affords help tn a wider range of cases than similar legislation elsewhere. Nevertheless, in practice it has been found that there are still some cases which could be covered within the spirit of the legislation, and the Appeal Costs Board, which administers the Act, has made recommendations which this Bill carries into effect.

1 think 1 can group the difficulties that have arisen into six main categories. The first case is where an infant is the plaintiff or an infant is the accused and the moneys required to provide his legal costs come from a parent or what is normally called in law the "next friend". In the terms of the present Act, applications cannot be granted to a parent or next friend even where he gave the actual financial assistance that enabled the infant to fight the case. I think the House win agree that that is the sort of case which certainly ought to be covered by the Appeal Costs Fund.

The second case relates to the definition of "court" in the original Act. It has now been indicated by the Full Court of the Supreme Court that appeals from Workers Compensation Boards, for instance, on questions of law, which are by way of a case stated to the Full Court, do not come from a body covered by the definition cc court ". There are other boards or other bodies from which there is an appeal to the Supreme Court on a question of law and which do not come within the present definition of the word "court". Once again, this Bill sets out to remedy that situation.

Another odd case came before the Appeal Costs Board where an accused had been charged before a Court of General Sessions with manslaughter. The Judge intimated part way through the case that on the facts presented to him the accused should have been charged with murder. As a result, the trial

U78. Appeal Costs Fund , [COUNCIL. ] (Amendment) Bill.

was discontinued in the Court of General Sessions and a new trial commenced later in the Supreme Court on a charge of murder. An application was made for costs in relation to the discontinued trial, but they could not be awarded. Clause 9 of the Bill makes provision for such a case to be dealt with in the future. .

A minor difficulty is sometimes encountered where an applicant cannot be obtained to sign· the con .. tingency form which the Treasury always insists on for a payment from the Appeal Costs Fund. The Board feels that it should have some discretion, if it is satisfied that an amount is owing by an applicant to his solicitor, to pay the amount due to him to his legal representative on his behalf and also obtain' a release for such payment. This is dealt with in clause 12 of the Bill.

Then there is a rather complicated case where the defendant does not appear in the Court of Petty Sessions by reason of a mistake in law made by the Court. The plaintiff may be obliged to appear. If the defendant does not appear .in the Court of Appeal, it may well happen that the Appeal Costs Fund cannot be resorted to even though the original mistake was made by the court itself. The Goverpment believes, as I am sure all honorable members do·, that that is an unfair situation.

Several matters have been brought to the attention of the Government by the Bar Council, and clauses 6, 7 and 8 give effect to the recommendations of that body. There are two aspects on which I wish to comment. The first is that, if an appellant desires to appeal further than the Supreme Court after the matter has been resolved in his favor. by that court, he will lose his right to receive a payment· from the Fund. The other matter is that the amount of costs which can be paid to the appellant from the Fund' in respect of this type of application is limited to $120 or such other amoupt as may

The Hon. R. J. Hamer.

be fixed for the time being in lieu thereof by the Governor in Council by proclamation published in the Government Gazette. The reason that this figure is fixed is that appeals to the Supreme Court from Courts of Petty Sessions are by way of an Order to Review, and the Justices Act has already fixed a limit of $120 for costs awarded in these cases. There appears to be no reason why the amount should be increased from this amount purely because it is being paid by the Appeal Costs Fund.

Clause 9 amends section 18 of the principal Act to inchide a member of the Industrial Appeals Court hearing an appeal from the Metropolitan Industrial Court or a Court of Petty Sessions, in the class of persons pre~iding over criminal or civil proceedings whose death or illness may 'abort the proceedings, and so enable the litigant to obtain a payment from the fund for extra costs incurred by such discontinuance.

Clause 11 sets out a new section 19A for the Act, which provides for circumstances brought to the notice of the Appeal Costs Board by the Law Institute of Victoria, and which could recur with substantial loss to an . infant litigant. It will be realized that when a case is settled where the plaintiff is an infant, before the amount can be accepted the whole matter must be scrutinized by a Judge, who must sanction the compromise and direct how the. amount received on the infant's behalf is to be disposed of or invested.

Recently.in such a case, the learned Judge refused to sanction the compromise, as he was not satisfied that the amount to be paid by the defendant to settle the action was sufficient recompense for the infant plaintiff. He directed that the matter proceed' to hearing by a Judge and jury. When the case came on for trial, after hearing' the evidence, the jury awarded the plaintiff a lesser amount than had been offered to him in settlement at the time of the suggested compromise. Because of

Sewerage Districts [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Amendment) Bill. 1179

money which had been paid into court by the defendant, the infant's father, who had instituted the proceedings on his behalf, was compelled to pay a considerable amount of legal costs, which were not awarded to him by the court. Of course, this was a most unfortunate situation, and it is felt that any person taking action on behalf of an infant should not be placed in this position. Proposed new section 19A therefore makes provIsIon to prevent this from happening again by allowing a payment to be made to cover these costs out of the Appeal Costs Fund.

The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-What is the state of the Fund?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-It is in a good position.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-What is the present balance?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-Before consideration of the measure is concluded, I shall ascertain how much has been paid out, and tne present balance of the Fund. As the amendments contained in the Bill fulfil the objectives that Parliament had in mind when the principal Act was passed, and will enhance the legislation, I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. Archibald Todd, for the Hon. J. W. GAL BALL Y (Melbourne North Province), the debate was adjourned.


SEWERAGE DISTRICTS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health).-I move-


Most of the amendments contained in this Bill are of a machinery nature and have been requested by the Provincial Sewerage Authorities Association of Victoria. Their purpose is to keep the procedures to be followed by sewerage authorities,

under the Sewerage Districts Act. as similar as practicable to those followed by local water authorities under the provisions of the Water Act, and also the procedures followed by municipal councils under the Local Government Act.

One of these amendments will enable a sewerage authority to over .. come a situation where it could be without a quorum due to disqualification of members who have an interest in contracts, and so on, under consideration. A similar provision for local water authorities is also contained in a water Bill to be introduced this session. The amendment is based on an existing provision in the Local Government Act covering similar circumstances in ·the proceed~ ings of municipal councils.

Another amendment will allow a sewerage authority, with the approva~ of the Minister, to remove from its accounts any moneys owing which are not likely to be repaid, and cannot be recovered. This will not involve complete remission of the debt which may be brought into the accounts again if the debtor is finally located.

A further amendment will clarify the procedure with regard to legal action for damages to private property resulting from the construction operations of an authority~ The principal Act at present provides for all disputed claims of this nature to be settled by a stipendiary magistrate. However, an action brought against one authority has cast a doubt on whether a magistrate can deal with some of the larger claims, and the proposed amendment will clarify the situation. The jurisdiction of a stipendiary magistrate will be limited to damages claims up to $1,000. Larger claims will be dealt with by a County Court Judge, with provision for appeals to the Supreme Court in awards exceeding $1,000.

The final amendment provides that the service of notices prior to legal action for the recovery of rates, &c., may be done by post.' This

1180 Limitation of Actions [COUNCIL.) (Notice of Action) Bill.

is inserted as an alternative to the personal service required at present. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.


SAN REMO LANDS BILL. The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON

(Minister of Housing).-I move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is one of those delightful noncontroversial Bills that occasionally come before the House. This particular measure reflects considerable credit on the Shire of Bass. Since November, 1888, an area has been set aside in this shire as a site for public recreation. It has never been actually used for this purpose for two reasons: First, it was badly placed and, secondly, it was too small. The Shire of Bass decided that it was desirable to set aside an area in the township' of San Remo for public recreation, and in order to provide a suitable area of adequate size in the most suitable location, the shire is prepared to transfer to the Lands Department the area of land specified in the First Schedule to the Bill, which comprises 9 acres 2 roods, on the condition that the Lands Department transfers to the council a very much smaller area-3 acres 12 perches-of much less value, being the area which was originally set aside in 1888 as a recreation reserve. . This appears to be a very good

bargain from the point of view of the Crown and to be in the interests of the people of San Remo. The arrangement is sought by the Shire of Bass, and I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. G. J. O'Connell, for the Hon. I. R. CATHIE (South-Eastern Province), the debate was adjourned.


LIMITATION OF ACTIONS (NOTICE OF ACTION) BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government).-I move-


The purpose of this small Bill is to repeal section 34 of the Limitation of Actions Act 1958. This section can prevent a citizen from bringing an action against a public authority, unless he first gives the authority notice of his intention to bring the action within six months of the occurrence which gave rise to it. It will not escape attention that no such notice is required of a private citizen suing another private citizen or a trading corporation. In other words, this is a special protection given to public authorities which is not given to anyone else.

This matter has been debated several times in this Parliament. The last occasion was in 1955, when the Limitation of Actions Bill of that year was passed. The question is brought before Parliament again because it now seems less than ever reasonable to have this distinction in the case of claims against public authorities, all the more because it is now quite clear that very few public authorities are prepared to observe the spirit of section 34 by waiving their right to get notice even in cases where they would not be at all prejudiced through the delay. For example, if a garbage truck negligently ran down a pedestrian and prompt and full inquiries were nlade on the spot by the police and council officers, the council could not be prejudiced in any way, because the full. facts would be available. But if the pedestrian wanted to sue the public authority which owned the truck and he allowed six months to pass without giving notice of intention to do so, he would find himself without any right to proceed.

That sort of case gives rise to the feeling that citizens ought to be equal before the law and

Limitation of Actions [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] (Notice of Action) Bill. 1181

that public authorities should not have any better right than any other defendant in such a matter.

The matter was considered as long ago as 1950 by the Statute Law Revision Committee. Paragraph 4 of its report stated-

The Committee are of the opinion that special protection for public authorities should not be retained. In coming to this decision the Committee were more concerned with injustices to the individual which had occurred and will occur from protecting public authorities, as pointed out in the report of the Chief Justice's Committee, than with the disadvantages which possibly may be experienced by public authorities if the protection is removed . . . . . The Committee recommend, with respect to public authorities, that the terms of the 1947 Bill should be adopted; namely that a public authority should be placed in exactly the same position as any other defendant and that the amendment for a modified form of notice, recommended by the Statute Law Revision Committee in 1949, be not proceeded with.

Many objections were raised to that recommendation by a number of public authorities in Australia, and similar objections were experienced in England. In England a compromise was adopted which was originally worked out by Western Australia and which removed the worst features of the old law, but did not abolish it altogether. For reasons that I have given, the Government now seeks to follow the course originally suggested in 1950 by the Statute Law Revision Committee and which, in fact, has been followed in England and in New Zealand.

The main points which justify this action are, first, that special limitations fixed for the benefit of authorities are a curtailment of the rights of the individual. Secondly, injustice often results to the individual merely by inadvertance, or as a result of want of knowledge, a certain claim becomes barred. Thirdly, there is the kind of anomaly which is created by the fact that persons employed as drivers by public authorities are protected, whereas employees of private' companies are not protected. Fourthly, difficulties arise where there is a

joint action against a private individual and a public authority in circumstances which give rise to joint liability. Fifthly, public authorities generally take the view that they should not waive the protection given by this section, and they leave it to a court to decide whether or not action should proceed. This is contrary to the spirit of section 34 where there has been no prejudice.

Finally, public authorities generally have quite an efficient system of investigating accidents. In many ways, their methods of investigation are more efficient than are the methods available to a private person. Therefore, in the general run of cases they are not prejudiced by any delay in giving notice. For all those reasons, I return to the 1950 recommendation of the Statute Law Revision Committee, and I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province), the debate was adjourned. . " : "

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until the next day of meeting.


The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Housing) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now reCl,d a secop<;i time.

I understand that some 195,000 overseas persons visit Australia each year. This sounds a large number, but it is small by comparison with the number of visitors who travel to places like Italy where the, total is as high as 20,000,000 per annum. Melbourne has many fine assets and attributes which should attract visitors from overseas, and I believe it will shortly have a further attraction in the National Gallery, Art Gallery and Cultural Centre which is in process of construction in St. Kilda-road.

National Gallery [COUNCIL.] of Victoria Bill.

This Bill has become necessary because of the construction of this centre and because it is proposed that the National Gallery of Victoria will move from its present building in Swanston-street to the new centre. The Bill can be said to have a threefold purpose; first, it will set up the National Gallery Council of Victoria as a corporate body. Secondly, it will provide a separate Act relating to the National Gallery of Victoria. Thirdly, it· will make appropriate provision for the transfer of this particular . body from its present headquarters in Swanston-street to the new building at the entrance of St. Kilda-road.

The Bill provides for a number of changes of consequence. The National Gallery Trustees were five to seven in number. There will now be nine members; one will be a person holding a senior academic o'ffice in a university in Victoria; one shall be a person representing country art galleries within Victoria; one shall be a person who, in the opinion of the Minister, is distinguished in the field of business administration; one shall be a person who, in the opinion of the Minister, is distinguished in the field of finance; and five others shall be nominated by the Minister. The period of office shall be for three years, and a person who is over the age of 72 years will not be eligible to be appointed to the council.

Perhaps I should direct attention to the schedule to the Bill. At the present time the buildings where the National Gallery is housed, the National Gallery Centre, are administered by a body consisting of a chairman, and a deputy chairman of the Public Liorary, the Art Gallery, the National Museum, and the Museum of Applied Science. Each of those bodies has two representatives. There are certain funds in the hands of those trustees. The schedule to the Act makes provision for the dispersal of those .funds in

The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.

accordance with the formula of twofifths in favour of the National Gallery Council of Victoria, onefifth in favour of the Public Library Council of Victoria, one-fifth to the Trustees of the National Museum, and one-fifth to the Institute of Applied Science.

The Bill deals logically and reasonably with the proposed transfer of this important body. I am sure honorable members wish the project every success in the interests not only of Victoria but of Australia as a whole, and hope that it will be a centre which, in due course, will achieve international recognition.

On the motion of the Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province), the debate was adjourned.


ADJOURNMENT. AUTISTIC CHILDREN.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I move-

That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until to-morrow at half-past Two o'clock.

I have discussed the proposed time of sitting with the Leaders of the other parties, and I think it will meet the convenience of honorable members generally. The Notice Paper contains a long list of business. Should there be any Bill, consideration of which any honorable member desires deferred until later in the day, I shall meet the convenience of the honorable member concerned.


The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move-


The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 direct the attention of the House to the tragic position of the parents of probably 200 children who are deemed to be autistic children of a violent nature. The retarded child

Adjournment. [25 OCTOBER, 1966.] Adjournment. 1183

has a simple, lovable nature and is usually easy to manage and care for, but parents just do not know what to do about these children. There is no institution in which they can be readily received and there is no forward planning for any such institution.

I direct the attention of the Government to an article entitled "Problem of Young Billy," which appeared in the Herald of Saturday, 22nd October. This article concerned a child of constituents of mine, and it was based on what happened at the Christian Day Nursery at Moonee Ponds. I pay a great tribute to Matron Daphne Parkinson of that nursery, and to the parents of t~e unfortunate child for the way m which they have coped with him over years of trouble. and considerable worry. I also pay a tribute to past and present Governments for what they have done for retarded children, but no Government has done anything for the violent child.

Matron Parkinson found that this child either could not or would· not speak. He used to run around the rooms at the nursery, hit his head against. the walls, and throw himself through glass windows. Ultimately, the parents told the matron. that, if the child could not be admItted to an institution, they would have to be. Matron Parkinson contacted the 'police and, as a result, the child was charged with being an uncontrollable child and was admitted to a centre. Ultimately what has happened in the past 'Will happen again. The Social Welfare Branch will put pressure on Kew Cottages to take the child, because there is no other place where he can be controlled. Brian Gill's article in the Herald raises a challenge to the Government. The Government has highlighted the Travancore conversion, the new wards at Janefield, and the development at Stawell, but there are still more than 800 retarded children waiting to be admitted to such· institutions.

Before the Government can develop Travancore to deal with children who have only islands of communication - contact with the children cannot be established at ·all times-it must send the children already there to some other place. Is it not true that three wards at Janefield are complete, but are empty and cannot be put into operation because there is no money with which to pay staff? Is it not true that the building at Stawell, which has been constructed to ground level, will not, when completed, be staffed because no money is available? Some provision has been made for children who can be managed, but what has been done for the child that cannot be managed? There is no planning and no provision for him. The parents of at least 200 such children are attempting to manage children who are really beyond their control. The only relief available to them is to have the children admitted to Kew Cottages. .

I ask that the message of Matron Parkinson, the article by Brian Gill in the Herald, and the requests made by members of the Opposition on a number of occasions be heeded and that some forward planning be done. I do not accuse any Minister of not being in sympathy with the parents concerned, but sympathy is· not enough. There is no planning for the future care of autistic children of a violent nature. I direct the attention of the Government to the article in the Herald in the hope that it will take some action.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 have read the, article to which Mr. Tripovich refers. There is no doubt that the story of the autistic child is a very sad one. So are the stories of the parents of the 700 or 800 children already on waiting lists. Only yesterday, I· had brought to my notice, by one of my Parliamentary colleagues; the case· of a mentally retarded child who'is also blind. The more these cases are examined, the more it is realized that there is one section of the community

victoria · cluding new schools) .. 1,241 1,063 1,004 865 925 86 financial guarantees. government...

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