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(DR. tl(U10cJ'(IA NNlf OK MIS REJE'ARCH)*

tNVIRONMENTAt HEARING BOARD COMMONWEAl-1H 0~ PENN~YLVANIA HARR IS BUR~ PA.1 DOCKET NQ 73-70+-N SEPTEMBER 2'1-Zi, Jq74 (EXCEl?PT)

Y1amouy1aM1e-vo1r dire

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7 THE WITNESS: The ·question he aeked me 1n 1970 wet

the reason that he asked m~ not to speak out on fluoridation

because you associated 1ou.r name with Chemical Abstract

Service. In April or 1970, I met with Russell Rawlette,

who ia chemistry (Row~tt)

Jea or no,

rrom there.

THE EXAMlNERi Was the answer to that 0.uestion

THE WITNESS: No.

THE EXAMINER: Le~•1 let that atand and go ahead 1 I

11 \ BY MR. BLACK: I

1211 Q Now, did there oome a time when you were placed

~ 13 I on probation by Chemical Abstract Services?

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14 ~ A. 'l'hat 11 1ort or 1p question. I thoutz:ht I was e'~d

15 i my ,uperv1aor aa1d I wasn't • I

! 16 : Well, was anything aaid to you that your work

I 17 '. wae not or the Quality they expected or their editors?

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Yes. This 1s part or, ap:a.in, this ,:oes into the. i

Just answer the question. Isn't that what wae

21 aa1d, We are not goine: to try this lawsuit here today,

22 1 obviously. lan't this the claim that wae made,

231 I A. .Claims were made towards the end of my stay I

24IJ there, right atter I approached Columbue City Council, my

25 ~ work - -

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11.amouy 1a •in1 s-volr cure lll

Well, d1d you

I want to clarity th1s aa much aa I can.

3 Up to 1972 my work was great. I wae teaching other ed1tore

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how to edit and ao torth. • I

Late 1971 and 1972, I contacted I

City Council to inform them or the adverse efteots or i i fluoride, a couple or weeks later I was told by my supervisor:

that Jou are t1n1shed here, The7 tranaterred me to another I department and 1n eight weeks, they decided my work was

so poor, I was the h1~htst performer 1n the department, that

my work was 8~ poor I was going to be put· on probation.

I said 1r you put ce on probation, you know I

arr. one or yow: best editors, it 1ou put me on probation,

l3 I am going to reeign. And they were glad to eee that I did

14 resign.

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So app&rently they did put you on probation,

At the end - - no.

You said it they put you on probation - -

Ir you put me on probation, you can take my I I;

19 . re eip.a t1or.. So they took my resignation. If I a.m on probation,

lCr 7ou can ~ake I:

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it any way 70u want.

I understand you reaiined?

Yes •

That waa •• a result or preaaurea put upon me - -1

Wasn't there an expreaaion or d1saat1afact1on that I

25 ithe Abstract& you ha~ reviewed contained errors? !

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1 A They were e~presaions which I have denied.

2 And this is part or the court case against them. The

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decision, by the way, on the court caee, was not baaed

tacta or whether my work ~ual1tJ was good or not. The

decision was based on the tact or what !1ret a~endment

on the

t'1ret· I I

i rights 1

v1olat1one, whether I was covered by the tirat amendment

or the Conat1tution and also by some ruling 1n 1973 which

was a class action or individual action to be made on the legal

aspects. I I I

l't was npt ao much baaed on the t'acta exc_ept that I the judge did make - - I

THE EXAMINER: , I understand they problem.

BY MR. BLACK:

Q

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I What did Jou do after you resigned from Chemical·

Abstract 1n 1912?

A Chemical Abstracts, arter resigning, after having

such a, since I had what I considered a poor work r!cord, .:~ ,• ..

we went through my peraonnel tile which contained t-.bou-t 95

percent fluoridation and 5 percent concerning me

Q You mean critical information?

~ Which 1a critical fluor1dat1on 1ntormat1on.

~ The 1nfonnation that you are talking about

eome tile you went through?

~ Right. Knowing

Q You aaid Jour work history was bad according to

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your pereonnel records. Do I understand that you - -

A. Basically they put all these statements, th~se

fraudulent 1tatementa that the7 made to me that I contended

into my work record,

This 1a again, one of the complain ~.a,,of our I . I I

I 6 · suit. But baaed on that , I couldn't, I was aort or blackb!l) .!!d;

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I felt 1n the industry • • I wasn't gettin~ any acceptances of

8 , applioat1ona. I

9 , So I started my own businese, I went 'into th~ i

10 ': rood processing business. I

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Salad oil buainesa?

~alad drtuing.

You 111ade this in your gara~e, 1e that right7

Right.

How long were you in that business?

A. I was in it up until the time I Joined the

National Federation. I had a wife and six kids and mr

avera~e income was $1,500,00 a year. A~a1n, theae are part of

the dsm.e.ges or the au1t.

l don't know why we are gettin~ into

I am tryin~ to trace your employment history,

air.

A. Okay .

We are at the point where aa I understand 1t

25 , in April of 1972, you submitted your reeignation to Chemical

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1 Abatract Services after they .1ntormed you they were goin~ to

2 I place you on probation tor what they alleged to be poor I

3 I work which you d1aputeT

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A. Right.

Q Xou then snanuractured salad dresein~ 1n your

garage trom April or 1972?

~ The iarage, bf the way, was modified 1n to a

aalad dressing manufacturing plant.

Q This took place until Jun~ or July or 197~?

~ And still 1a goin~ on.

Q Stillie going on?

IUght.

But do I understand correctly that your only

employment atter your termination with Chec1oal Abstract

S&rvices was with the National Health Federation?

~ Basically, yea.

Q Now, this 1a an anti-fluoridation group, 1e it

not, the National Health Federation?

A No, I have said what 1t was. It is a - -

Q Weren't you hired?

~ Wait a aecond. It 1a a consumer health group.

Pluor1cat1on is one or the 1asuea that they take a •tand on.

And 1t Jou want me to 10 into it, I will explain what the

stand is on tluor1dat1on.

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Medical Asaoo1at1on DepPrtmen·t or In·,estigation, and I

ctuote "The National Health Federation, since 1ta founding in

Monrovia, Cal1torn1a 1n 1955 has eapouaed the unaubatantiat~d 1·

cases ot cancer, uneatabl1ahed and unproved cancer remedies,

chiropractic and other teff\a or eultiam, rood tadism, and

ant1-fluor1dat1on and anti-immunization."

A.

Q

A.

You want me to anewer that question,

Yes.

That is whY I aaked you.

Is.that etatement true?

Yes.

io.

THE EXAMINER: All ri(tht. We are trying to

14 complete his qualifications betore we take our lunch break

15 ! I don't know 1r 10u are getting away rrom that or not.

16 MR. BLACKi Just a couple more ctuestiona.

17 BY MR. BLACKi

18 Q Would Jou agree with a statement by th~ I

19 ! Pederal Pood and Drug Ac1m1n1atrst1on from its inception I

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the Pederation has been a tront tor promoters of unproved

rer:ieciiee, occentric theories and quackeries. It has

cone1ntently supported 41aored1ted medical treatments auch ae

the outlawed Hoxie oure tor cancer and equally .. worthleu

noetrwns? Would 70u aia-ee with that etatement?

A ~he date on that 1a what? ------- .. oM .. , .. c." • ........... ._ 1Nc. . aooo ., • .,, .,.,,,T ......... ,., .. c. •• --------'

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Y1am:uy1ann1e-vo1r dire ll6

Q 1963.

Yes. Okay. No. I was not there in 1963.

I came there in 1965. (~) That 1s the organization you attiliate yourself

with?

A Thie is the or~anization, the third time - -

You voluntarily - -

A. The organization hired me arter a wa~e or $1,500.00 a year.

Q You submitted an application and you wer•.h1red?

A. No.

Q 'l'hey came to 30u?

Yee.

Q Is that it? Was ~hat because or your anti-tluor da-

tion stand that you were hired?

A That may have been one or the criteria.

Q Would you any it was the main criteria?

~ I really don't know, but I would aay no.

Q Is 1t not a tact that you were asked by this

orgenization to Join their torcea to io out on speaking

engagemente and testify at varioue places aoroas the countrr

a~ainnt fluoridation?

A I am doing that.

Today. Isn't that the purpose tor which 7ou

were hired'?

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the purposes .

X1a.mouy1ann1s-vo1r dire 117

No. As a matter or fact, this 1a only one of

I handle the entire, or I handle as much as

I possibly can or the ecientiric aspects or the National

Health Federation. They want a person who has the qualiricatlone

or a PHD to pass judgment,

Q Well - -

A. Do you vant to ask my duties?

Q I'm sorry. Go ahead. \ I

A. I am basically there because they recognize the I I

raot that they have been lacking in the past in somebody with :

seientiric expertise. Th~y knew their deficiency. They knew !

that some of the criticism leveled against them va~ true and

they wanted to !ind somebody ~ho could either say yes or no

and somebody who •ould be honest in doing ao. this

And/is ~hy they hired me. So rar as I know.

Q . But if you should, as a result or aome original

reoearch which you t!l!.f do in the future, discover that

fluoridation ia desirable ·, do you think that would have any

effect on your employment?

A. Let me a.n1wer that question

Q That 1• why I asked it.

~ The National Health Federation objects to

fluoridation on two rules. The basic rule they have ia

that a person - -

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1iam0uy1enn1a-vo1r a1re

IT will anewer your questions.

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211 : I would like you to just answer the question directl~

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without going into - -

A It will be very ahort. It will clarity the

whole - -

THE EXAMINER: Why don't you answer yes or no

tirat and then take a tew minutes and explain it •

THE WITNESS : No •

BY MR. BLACK:

Q Okay. Now, would you explain that?

A. Thie 1s one of the nice things I th1r1c about

working for t~e National Health Federation. Is that they

maintain a person has a right to decide what ~oee into their I

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14 body or not. So no matter whe~her I came out for tlour1dat10n1

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or against it sc1ent1f1oally, they would atill maintain that I nobody haa a right to put th1e in your water whether it 1s

~ood or bad for you without your havinr rreedorn or choice.

My aspect 1B on whether it 1s sate or not.

Now, it I

Q Do you have

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. ·

I thou~ht yo~ were finished.

23f A It I had come and aa1d fluoridation 11 sate trom I

24 1\ a scientific viewpoint, they would etill have the objection

25 ii baaed on 1nd1 vidual choice,

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1 I But do you th!nk they would eend you around

2 the country, which you indicated is a major part or your

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A. I didn't say it was a major part or ID.Y job.

Ien't it to go on -

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Q I - - and testify 1n major cases across the country? r 8,

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Isn't that part ot your job?

A. Yes.

You have indicated that since you have been

11 there 1n June or July, Jou have only done one thing?

12 Only on - only on an experimental basis.

13 · And as much as the Pood and Drug Adre1n1strat1on is an

14 experimental

15,. There are no funds to carry on research in a

16 proper way?

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No government tunds. Thie / Organization didn't h1re you to do original

reseerch?

I did original research after I was hired by

As a matter or tact, they financed the original research.·

Q This was your study or trout that Jou are

talking about?

~ This is a atudy w1th trout, but - -

Q But I thought I heard Jou aay on Jour direct

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them.

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exam1nat1on, I tried to jot 1t down as closely es I could, l that there were no .funds to carry on research provided by the I National Health Federation.

And this is one or your criticisms, as I

understood it.

k It wasn't a or1t1cisrn. rr I said anything like

that, it is that they don't have enough money to carry on a

sustained research pro~ram.

~ Sc that your job as science director does not

involve being involved in actual research, does it?

k Oh, yes it does. Extremely so. While I was at

Chemical Abst~act - -

Who finances this research? No.tional Health

Federation?

~ Yes. Th1s is literature research they -

Q Let's distinguish this. Perhaps this is the

confusion, between clinical research and - -

k No.

Q Whnt 1s the d1st1nct1on you draw?

k Clinical research, as I can understand 1s

research on humar. bein~s.

i;. Okay.

~ ls that correct?

Q Yes.

And have you done any of that research and I

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you said no?

A. As a biochemiet, I am not

Q You aren't qual1t1edT

A. I am not qual1t1ed. It 1s not legal tor me to·

as an MD.

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Q

You are not legally qual1!1~d to do 1t without

Okay.

The research that you heve done cone1sts or

reading literature? 10

11 The research I 4o is based upon my experience with

i 12 ! the Chemical A,bstract, being a person through, who can

13 1nrormation properlt.

retrieve

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Q Do I misstate your position 1r I sum.~ar1ze

1t· by saying that the research that you have been en~a~ed in

with the one exception or the trout experiment has been the

reading or articles or other people and abstracts or those

art1cles1

A. Correct.

Mr.. BLACK: Okay. .1I have no turth~r questions.

THE EXAMIHER z Okay. We are ~oing to take a

cne hou~ lune~ break at thie time. Return here at 2:00

o'clock,

(Whereupon at laOO o'clock p.m. the hearint

recessed to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock p.m. the aame day.)

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