Event CEO Podcast -- Episode 44

Mary Abbajay, Careerstone Group: Adapting Your Work Style to Any Type of Boss

You are listening to Event CEO a podcast for executives who are looking to maximize their events ROI through business strategy, technology and innovation.   Rebecca: Hello, and welcome to the Event CEO podcast by Linder Global Events.  I am your host Rebecca Linder and today we are delighted to welcome to the show Mary Abbajay.  President and founder of Careerstone Group. Mary such a pleasure to have you on the show today. I’m so excited.  Why don’t we start with what is Careerstone Group and how did you get here? 

Mary: So, you want me to start by talking about myself?  I think I love you.  Alright, so Careerstone Group is a leadership and organizational development company.  Which means we do one of two things, we either help organizations create great places where people can play well together.  Or we are on the development side, the talent development side.  We are teaching people how to be great at work so that they can play well with everybody else. 

So, it’s either about making great workplaces or making people who are great in them.  So, it looks like facilitation, team building, organizational culture change.  It looks like leadership skills. Emerging careers is a big area for us.  All of those soft skills that are going to make you a much better person and a much better colleague and a leader. 

Rebecca: And how did you get here, how did Careerstone … 

Mary: Girl, it was a long and winding road, so I had done a host of various white-collar jobs, I had been in the public relations biz, I had been in the high-tech biz in marketing and branding, worked in non-profit, I was the public relations director for the Children’s Museum here in town many years

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ago.  Then I went to work for John Wilson of the famous Wilson Building, who was for our long-time D.C. residents.  He was the chairman for the city council.  And John killed himself while he was in office.  So, I stuck around for a while to work for the next chairman with whom I did not get along with very well, and I decided to quit, and I went and opened up a bar here in D.C. called the Toledo Lounge.  Then we opened a nightclub, I did that for a couple of years.  It was really terribly boring, but fun.  What I discovered doing the bar business, I didn’t really like the bar business, but I was really good at it.  And people used to come and ask me all the time, “how did you do that, how did you do this? How do you train people so well? How come you are so successful? what do you do?” And I realized, that I loved helping other people be successful, and this is Washington, and a friend of mine said you should be a consultant.  And I was like, what’s that?   

I went back to school, got a Masters and a couple of other post-graduate degrees and started doing the consulting facilitation. 

Rebecca: Fantastic. 

Mary: I know it’s so much fun.  Every day is different. 

Rebecca: If I date myself I used to be a patron of Toledo Lounge, didn’t even know about the nightclub. 

Mary: I was just speaking at a big conference last for the security intelligence community.  I didn’t know any of these people.  This young woman comes running up to me afterwards, and she said – and this is full of spies and stuff, right – she comes running up to me and says, “Oh, my God, I met my husband at your bar, here are our children”. 

Rebecca: That’s awesome. 

Mary: I was so proud of that.  I was like, that’s awesome I created love. 

Rebecca: Impact.  Impact. 

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So, you have just written a book called Managing Up , tell us a little bit about that. 

Mary: So, Managing Up is a very practical guide to how to deal and navigate with any type of boss.  So, it’s really written for anyone who has a boss, right?   And we all have bosses.  And it talks about how it’s our responsibility to make that relationship work.  We can’t change our boss.  We can only change how we interact with them.  We can’t choose our boss, so it’s really about empowering people to try to figure out who their boss is and navigate that relationships. 

The book is full of tips, techniques and strategies to deal with any type of boss.   

Rebecca: That’s really why, in addition to adoring you, and thinking you are fabulous, part of why I wanted to have the show today… 

Mary: I thought there was going to be wine here, but whatever. 

Rebecca: We could do that.  One I have read the book, and I have also shared it with my entire universe.  But what I realized is that a lot of our audience, and in events, you have not your traditional boss, but your client is your boss.  Whether it’s an internal client or an external client.  And I think one of biggest challenges in events is not only how to manage them and how to keep them happy, but to also deal with very difficult conversations around dollars and P&L’s and experiences and strategic goals. 

Talk to us a little bit about how what you are writing about translates to that universe, and some tips and guidelines around how to be successful. 

Mary: Yeah, you know.  It translates so beautifully.  I have talked to a lot of law firms about the same thing.  Anytime you are in professional services, right, or event services, when you are dealing with clients they become your bosses.  Unlike a boss that you are with 24/7, they shift around, right? 

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And I am guessing you know your clients also have bosses, right?  So, they have a board of trustees that they have to manage up to.  So, you have to manage up on multiple levels.   

At the end of the day what managing up is about is the relationship, right, it’s about making that relationship work.  Can you navigate that person’s personality to build trust?  Can you navigate that person’s personality to communicate well?  Can you really understand what their preferences are?  Where their priorities are and their pet peeves? 

So, that they can trust you and you can build that relationship.  Without a relationship you have nothing. 

So, at the end of the day managing up is really about emotional intelligence.  Can you be adaptable to different people?   I love to roll into work and just be exactly who I am and have everyone adapt to me, but that’s not how it works.  Especially, especially when you are delivering services.  You think about your boss, your clients, you would love for them to value you and find you valuable just the way you are, right, I mean we all want that.  But that doesn’t always happen because people are different.  And so, appreciating the human dynamic that’s at play, and figuring out what you can do. Because you can’t change who they are, right, you can only change how you interact with them. 

Rebecca: Given the fact that a lot times in our universe we don’t have the benefit of being hired for a multi-year long-term, it’s more of a surgical strike in some instances.  It could be a three-month time frame from start to finish to get to the completion of the event.  It could be could be two years. How do we create that foundation right out of the gate?  Is it in the contracting process, is it in the first conversation? How do you really kind of accelerate that? 

Mary: Yeah.  I think it’s in both.  I think it’s in the contracting process and in the first conversation.  We call it designing the alliance in coach-speak.  But I would recommend is you have to talk about expectations of the event, you have talk about all of that.  Take some time to talk about

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how they like the work.  Take the time to find out like what are your communication preferences.  Are you an email person, are you are texter, are in an introvert, or are in an extrovert? Learn to feel how they communicate? 

Let’s say they hate video Skype.  Well, then don’t video Skype them, right?  Let’s say they want the face to face as much as possible, Lord have mercy, get your butt over there with the face to face.  So, find out about their personality and communication preferences.   

And one of the ways you can do that is to look to see whether they are an introvert or extrovert.  And that’s a really great way to figure things out, if you can meet with them and you can tell, or you can ask them if they are an introvert or extrovert. 

Introverts tend to communicate a lot more in writing.  They tend to want more time to think and synthesize things.  An extrovert tends to want more external stimulus, they want to engage more, they like to think out loud, right? 

So, if you have an introverted client and you are an extroverted delivery person, you like to roll into these meetings and let’s brainstorm.  You can just watch their energy just slowly drain away.  So, knowing that is really important. Ask them about their work styles.  Do they like to collaborate?  Are they detail-oriented are they big picture, what do they like?  And then ask them what their pet peeves are.  What are your pet peeves? What drives you crazy?  How can I work well with you and communicate with you?  What kind of information do you need?  How do you like your information?  How frequently do you want to talk? 

That’s what you do you figure out where their preferences are.  And then you kind of adapt to them. 

Rebecca: Great.  Great tips.  What about when, so you’re midway in a project, a hiccup happens, which is inevitable on the event side of things.  Whether it’s a change from organizational that they are making a change

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strategically, and there has just been a delay in a deliverable – what are some tips around how to deal with those difficult moments? 

Mary: Yeah.  So, this is really great.  This is again a question that you want to – when you are kind of sussing up your client – some clients I am sure are micromanagers, right, some are nit pickers, some are big picture just call me if you’re in jail kind of bosses, correct?  So, you have to know what kind of boss that is to know how soon you need to bring them in and alert them to a challenge or problem.  You know if they are micro-managers they probably want to be alerted right away.  If they are macro ghost kind of clients, then you might want to wait until you have some solutions figured out.   

For some clients you are going to want to tell them before you have a solution, for example a micro-manger is going to want to know right away.  If I am your client, I only want to know about the problem once you have a solution.  So, you have to figure out what that is.  And you want to talk about this also in the very beginning. 

So, you roll in and say, got a challenge, need to tell you about, here’s the challenge, here’s what we’re thinking we’re going to do, or here’s how we are doing, just wanted to let you know and see if you have any thoughts before we solve it. 

Rebecca: Great advice. 

Mary: Isn’t that what you do, though? 

Rebecca: It is.  However, I think it’s very hard – let’s say we have 30 people full-time in our organization, and people interact with various kinds of people, and depending on your level of skill, tenure, who’s on the other end of that conversation, it can be very difficult.  Because one person wants to know at the micro level, one other person wants to know at the macro level, and those two don’t get along on that end.  So, I have to navigate or my team or just our audience has to navigate between the dynamics of an external

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organizations, where there are multiple bosses that don’t even get along.  And so that’s its own… 

Mary: Yeah, that’s its own fun little thing.  But I mean that’s exactly right, you have to know what they want.  Because if you are dealing with someone who is very concerned with the micro, and you don’t bring them all of the facts, or if you have someone, we call them the evaluator, the people that are very detail oriented, very task oriented, they might want to a whole host of what led to that problem, and if you don’t go in there with that information, they are not going to trust you, right? 

Then you have what we call the energizers or the advancers, they don’t need the detail, they just want to know that the problem is solved, right?   Rebecca has pointed to herself, she’s an advanced so much, that’s fine as long as people know that’s what works for you, so you have to know who you are dealing with when you are bringing in challenges and problems.   

Rebecca: The two big messages we are getting from the book that I think is extremely helpful to the audience.  Is one you have to lay the basic foundation and really do your due diligence outside of the strategical, who are they, and how do they like to interact?

And I think the second thing we are hearing is, depending on that information that you have gleaned from the beginning and throughout time, is to then adapt to their work style in terms of how you solve problems.   

Mary: That’s exactly right. 

Rebecca: So, if I’m as the energizer and the advancer, I don’t like the detail, but I have a detail person on the other end, get detailed and bring it to them. 

Mary: Or for you, delegate someone to get those details.  So, that’s exactly what happens.  And so, this is what people resist.  So, in the workplace we have a boss who is opposite from us.  Let’s say we have micro-manager.  Which is the number one thing that people complain about.  And

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you probably have micro-managing clients.  They want to be cc’d on everything, they want to know about everything ahead of time.  And what happens is their need for control rubs up against our need for autonomy.  So, instead of giving them what they need, we tend as human beings to get all like pissed off and bitter.  Our reptile brain triggers us, and we get defensive and angry, instead of just being like, huh, that’s interesting.  They need that.  Instead of judging them, just give it to them.  It’s no skin off your teeth, yes, it’s going to be annoying, yes, it’s going to take maybe a couple of extra minutes to cc them on and loop them in, but you have to think of it in the long-term.  Not in the short-term. 

Rebecca: Amen. 

Mary: We get caught in our own ego, right?  We caught in our wants and our own desires.  And the need to be right, and that doesn’t always work in building relationships.   

Rebecca: Nope, that’s very true.  So, where can we get the book? 

Mary: You can go to Amazon.  You can go to Barnes & Noble.  If you are local to D.C., you can go to Kramer Books, which I love.  Busboys and Poets did have it for a while.  Anywhere that sells books you can buy it. 

Rebecca: Alright, we will make sure that we do that.  So, I want to segway from kind of this role, which is super helpful, into kind of another role that you play.  Which I think will also provide tremendous insight is that speaker role.  That on-stage role. 

Mary: I was a little nervous in what role you were going to talk about. 

Rebecca: There’s so many. 

Mary: It’s a legal one.   

Rebecca: It is a legal one.  We will talk about the legal ones afterwards or maybe post-show.  So, there is this idea that I have been grappling with and

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talking to our audience about which is that speakers, is kind of old world, and I think new world is more around facilitation.  How do you draw in an audience?  How do you recognize and realize and be aware of the fact that you probably have just as many experts in the audience as you do that one person on stage that probably out-weighs your smarts?  How do you in this new paradigm facilitate conversation, create experiences, get people to participate?  Give us some of your insights who have been on both sides of that.   

Mary: I love this question so much.  I love it because I do think the paradigm has shifted.  I think it’s a little generational.  I think baby-boomers were perfectly happy to sit in an audience and be preached at, talked to by speakers.  You know the sage on the stage. 

But I don’t think gen-x, and I certainly know that the millennials, do not want to just be preached at or talked at.   

For many years I was an adjunct faculty at George Mason University.  That is a classy thing, right?  Teaching, and I would walk by all of these classrooms, and you would have a teacher or professor on stage and just talking at the students with no interaction.  And you would just see the look of glazed faces.   

I taught a class where I would talk for ten minutes, and then there would be an experiential activity, then a debrief.  I would introduce a concept and the same sort of thing, and it was really thoughtful, it took me forever to really find different engaging ways.  My class had a waiting list that was three times the size of the class.  The actually had to open up a second class, because the younger people want engagement.  So, you are absolutely right it is the wave of the future.   

Speakers need to learn how to do it.  Nobody wants to sit there and listen anymore for 45 minutes to an hour.  You better be really damn good if you think you hold someone’s attention, and funny without doing interaction. 

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So, I will tell you.  I think my background of facilitation has really helped me as a speaker be very engaging.  And also, I am little fearless about it.  So, I will go in to do a client activity, and the client will say, oh, you can’t make these people get up.  You can’t make them move around, because they just won’t like it.  And I’m like, oh, okay, really.  They won’t do any games or anything like that.  So, you just have to talk to them.  And I say, okay, to the person hiring me.   

Then I go and do whatever I want.  And I tell you people always want to engage.  They always want to get up and move, they always want to do something.  So, you absolutely have to build into your repertoire. 

Rebecca: Okay, so let’s talk about scale.  So, I have 1,000 people in an audience, I have a 100 people in an audience, how do I do that in that range? 

Mary: Let’s talk about simple techniques to more complex techniques. 

Rebecca: Okay. 

Mary: No matter what size your audience you can always ask them questions.  So, one of the simplest things you can do when you walk on-stage is say, who here loves this event, raise your hand?  And when you do that, if you want people to raise their hand, then you raise your hand too.  And then, call on some people in the audience, like stand up, do this do that.  So, get people doing that.  So, that’s really simple whether it’s 100 people or 1,000.  And what I tend to do is ask a series of questions, and the last one is usually something funny, and I catch people raising their hand – ooops.  Something silly.  So, get the engaged right from the start by asking them. 

Rebecca: Let me just stop you, just to highlight a point.  What I heard you say, is that to do this effectively you’ve got to mimic or demonstrate, so you literally put your hand in the air to demonstrate that people will do that. 

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Mary: Exactly.  And pause.  And look around the room.  A lot of times would rather fire questions, and it’s not engaging.  You want to get people to raise their hand.  So, that’s easy peasy lemon squeezy number one. 

Number two, pair-shares always work.  And even the TED talks have learned this.  Basically, give a question, it should be an engaging question, or something and have people turn to their neighbor.  Form threesomes.  Have a conversation about this.  If you have micro phones in the audience, you can then also do it like that, let’s hear from a few of you, raise your hand if you want to share.  It depends on how big your audience.  So, pair-shares as corny as they sound always, always work. 

Now, if your people are sitting at a table, right?  That’s awesome, you know how the people sit rounds?  Give them something to talk about in their group. 

I recently was doing something for five hundred lawyers and believe me lawyers are a tough crowd.  I made them do this exercise, it’s called the sentence relay exercise and I made them at their tables silently write a sentence, by one person starting one word and then passing it around the table until they were finished.  It had to be grammatically correct.  Then I had everybody stand up and they all read their sentences throughout the whole room, it took like 15 minutes, it was hilarious.  It got them engaged.   Then throughout the entire session I would just periodically go back and said, at your tables talk about this.  And they could be getting to know your questions, it could why are you here, your biggest challenge, whatever it is that you are talking about have them engaged. 

The other thing you can do is physically get people up.   

We were doing something for like 500 people and we did something really simple where we said, if you are introverted go to this side of the room.  If you are an extrovert go to that side of the room.  And just, move people around.  The more people you have it’s going to take longer, but moving them around is always really great, getting them up. 

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Another thing I did once, if was for a transportation company.  They had like 400 people and it was a standing event and they wanted to give a talk about the importance of networking.  So, instead of like talking at them for 40 minutes, I talked for 10 minutes, when all of the attendees came in, I passed out different colored ribbons.  And I said, alright, go find someone with a yellow ribbon, and I said, here’s your networking question.  Talk to each other.  And then they did, and then I brought them back.  I gave them another tip in networking, and then I sent them back to find another different person, here’s something to talk about.  And we taught them how to network while actually having them network. 

Rebecca: Versus just talking at them.   

Mary: Versus talking at them. 

Rebecca: Yeah.  I have a question, it’s something that I have been thinking about when you talked about creating movement and having people engaged a little bit differently, whether it’s a lawyer exercise.  Let’s talk about our gala dinners.  We do events all over the world, they are all the same.  And I think there is fatigue around the gala.  One of my questions is could one of these exercises work?  Could we have a conversation at a table that is directed during a dinner, and then have a roving mic that goes around and give people an opportunity to participate within the audience about a personal experience that they have actually had with this organization?  Or something around the constituents that it helps and why that’s meaningful? Why they actually came tonight even though they don’t know a thing about the organization, what drew them there?  Is there a way to be effective in that environment that is so traditional and boring? 

Mary: I so agree with you.  I think, yes absolutely there is.  I think people crave that opportunity to talk to people at their tables, right.  You sit at these tables, and the minute you sit down, well they let you eat for like three minutes, and then the program begins.  And then you are just talked at, right. 

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So, I think there is absolutely a way to give questions, conversation.  I know the Washington Business Journal for the Women Who Mean Business, I don’t know if they still do it.  But for their dinner, not their awards dinner, but their pre-dinner, that they have just for the awardees, they used to do that.  They used to put cards on the table and they would say talk about this, and they would go around, and they would hear from each table.  And they’d say tell us what you discovered in this conversation. 

The other thing you can do, you can play games.  People love games.  I mean the gamification of America, especially as crowds get younger and younger, find some cool game that people can play, and make them almost be competitive against other tables.  Technology can help with that as well, because there is a lot of fun techno gadgets that you can do.   

But I think anytime you can engage people at gala’s that would be fantastic. 

Rebecca: I really like the gaming idea, because one they are an easy platform to do it on, everyone is coming with a smart phone.  But you could also go old school and do almost like, did you know, or do you know bingo. 

Mary: Yes, exactly. 

Rebecca: Actually, someone did that at a wedding once, and someone stood up in the middle of someone’s vows, and it was like bingo.  Could you imagine a gala though?   Mary: Even at the pre-gala during the cocktail hour that’s a great way to do games, do a bingo games, do some sort of a scavenger hunt, I mean get creative.  There’s lots of things you can do if you try it.  And if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, but nobody is going to blame you for trying to make things more engaging and interesting. 

Rebecca: That is true.  Alright, let’s just segue to the big universe that I know you participate in.  And just culturally you are super savvy.  What cool stuff are you seeing out there?  What is something that has really caught

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your eye?  Innovative, technical, something that was just really engaging, fun?   

Mary: That’s a good question.  I think when I go to gala’s where there is engagement, I love it.  I am going to be very un-tacky about this.  I like shorter programs.  I actually do want to talk to people at my table.  I like raffles, I like to win something at the table.  I haven’t seen that much new stuff. 

I’ve seen a lot of the same old thing.  As you say, and I would like to see something more.  Especially, where I could get engaged.   

I was at the Willy Mammoth Theatre gala recently, and they had a cart of food that they roamed around with, which was awesome.  Like I like the food kind of coming to me on a cart, I do like the fact that they have the gala’s now you don’t have to carry things around, you can bid electronically.   

Rebecca: Makes a big difference. 

Mary: Some things that annoy me about events, programs that they talk at you for too long.  I don’t think anyone should talk to anybody for more than ten minutes without some sort of engagement piece.  It annoys me when the music is too loud.  When you are sitting at the table.  You know what I mean.  You are sitting at the table and now you are blaring this music so loudly I can’t even talk to people, so that annoys me.  Bag coat check annoys me. 

Rebecca: First and last. And valet.

Mary: First and last thing.  And the name tags, just have them, but have the magnets. 

Rebecca: So, you don’t have to puncture the dress. 

Mary: Puncture the dress.  I am trying to think.  I should have prepared for this part more often, but I find events just not interesting any

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more.  And I go to them all the time, and I would love to see people do something new.  You tell me what’s the new thing? 

Rebecca: You know we really believe in quite a few things.  So, one is the word experiential is going around all the time for us, the way we define that is creating participants at an event.  They are no longer attendees in our mind.  Doesn’t matter what it is and who the demographic is they are also participants.  Making sure we are re-interpreting speakers as facilitators, really important also. Mary: I love that. 

Rebecca: An emotional arc to a program, and a short program.   

Mary: I am in love with you.  I will go to your events.  Like that sounds exactly right.   

Rebecca: We have to get all of our clients on board though. 

Mary: So, why do the client’s resist? 

Rebecca: I think resistance comes from what they know.  So, it’s scary to make change.  But the reality – these are very minor tweaks that make a tremendous difference in the experience.  Again, giving more opportunity for engagement.  We agree at the table, because people want to talk to the people.  It’s often very interesting.  That’s one of the great benefits at being at a gala is they are often really interesting. 

Another big thing for us is making sure that people can connect with the organization’s story and their constituents.  You have to be careful depending upon what it is that it doesn’t feel gratuitous, at the same rate, if you are not interacting with the cause in some very meaningful and direct way, you are not going to get what you need, which is long-term engagement, and essentially to use a pipeline.   

Mary: No, you’re right. 

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Rebecca: Those are the things that you want.  So, we are very thoughtful about the structure and the engagement, and that’s in pre, post and during, because all of those things really matter. Mary: So, let me ask you question, because now I am going to do you. 

Rebecca: Please. 

Mary: So, I am guessing that your clients evaluate the event, if it’s a fundraiser, how much money they raise.  How do they evaluate participant’s experience? 

Rebecca: I think through feedback.  So, there is feedback, it comes solicited or unsolicited depending on how you do it. 

Mary: Do they have a systematic way to do? 

Rebecca: Surveys.  Polls.  You ask two critical question post, would you come again, would you invite somebody to come?  Those are really two.  And you can craft those questions in a variety of ways, but usually you can embed those in four other questions, and you will have a good sense of what their experience was.  Ask them to draw out something that was unique to that moment and program, and why they felt it was different and what was the differentiator for them.  Either to attend, or while attending. 

Have those are some of the things that you can draw out, and there are a lot of ways that you can do it.  You can paper survey.  You can poll them afterwards.  You can embed it into your bidding and auction environment. 

Mary: And do the clients get that engagement is a huge part of people’s satisfaction, or are they just learning about that now? 

Rebecca: I think they are learning about it.  It’s a question that we ask.  Because to have an event, for us now is becoming harder to produce from an event perspective like as a planner.  Because if there’s not strategic goals

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and measurable goals behind it – it makes it harder to evaluate success.  And there are really easy ways now, whether it’s social impressions, whether it’s financial, whether it’s you gained 100 new people on your list and you got really good information.  There are numerous ways to do it now and so we are really thoughtful about, okay how are we going to measure success.  If they have stakeholders like a board, what’s that conversation we need to have with the board?  What do they want out of it too?  And get some kind of additional input into what might be not just your impressions and those kinds of things.  And also, conversion.  It’s a big piece of it, if we know and we can start to document, because we have done an event for ten years, that it takes two years to convert the sponsor that you have asked to come as a comp, it takes three years to get them to actually sponsor.  Well, then let’s be thoughtful about who they are, and what that plan is and what the ask is. 

So, there are just lots of ways to think.  But you have to do all of that upfront work.  If it’s like establishing trust, you are establishing trust with the sponsors, you are establishing trust with new constituents, new pipelines.  It’s the same concept.  So, managing up becomes relevant across the board. 

Mary: Across the board.  Well-played Rebecca. 

Rebecca: Well thank you.  On that note, a big thank you to you. 

Mary: Thank you, this is so fun. 

Rebecca: Appreciate having you.  And I guess I want to emphasize that in the event world, so many things apply.  Skill sets, knowledge base, technology, platforms, books like yours, management leadership concepts, they all apply and have a place in events.  So, we are particularly pleased to have you on board because you can run the gamut across all of those, so thank you. 

Mary: It was an honor.  Thank you so much. 

Rebecca: Alright we will look forward to having you again. Mary thank you so much for being our guest on the show today.  It’s a delight having you as

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always.  If you have more questions for Mary or me that you want answered in an upcoming session, email us at eventsceo@linderglobal.com.   And make sure to follow us on social media, all of our links are on our website at linderglobal.com. 

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Thanks for listening and until next time make your days great.  

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