zoning board of appeals web minutes zba re… · web viewmeeting – june 28, 2012 (time noted...

ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS

MEETING – JUNE 28, 2012

(Time Noted – 7:04 PM)

CHAIRPERSON CARDONE: I’d like to call the meeting of the ZBA to order. The first order of business is the Public Hearing scheduled for today. The procedure of the Board is that the applicant will be called upon to step forward, state their request and explain why it should be granted. The Board will then ask the applicant any questions it may have and then any questions or comments from the public will be entertained. After all of the Public Hearings have been completed the Board may adjourn to confer with Counsel regarding any legal questions it may have. The Board will then consider the applications in the order heard. The Board will try to render a decision on all applications this evening; but the Board may take up to 62 days to reach a determination. And I would ask if you have a cell phone to please put it on silent or turn it off so that we will not be interrupted. And to please speak directly into the microphone as it is being recorded. And I'd also like to point out that the Members of the Board have made site visits to all of the areas that we will be discussing this evening. Roll call please.

PRESENT ARE: GRACE CARDONEJOHN MC KELVEYBRENDA DRAKERONALD HUGHESMICHAEL MAHER

ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:

DAVID A. DONOVAN, ESQ.BETTY GENNARELLI, ZBA SECRETARYJOSEPH MATTINA, CODE COMPLIANCE


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ZBA MEETING – JUNE 28, 2012 (Time Noted – 7:05 PM)

JOHN RUSSELL 164-166 SOUTH PLANK ROAD, NBGH (64-4-21) B ZONE

***TWO APPLICATIONS HEARD AS ONE COMBINED***

USE VARIANCE - Applicant is seeking a use variance to keep an existing non-conforming single-family residence for the site plan approval to allow three buildings on one lot (two proposed office – retail buildings and one existing single-family residence).

AREA VARIANCES - See Area variance application.

Chairperson Cardone: If there is anyone is here this evening interested in the application of John Russell I have a letter concerning that application: We respectfully request that our applications be withdrawn for this project, signed by AJ Coppola. So if anyone is interested in that application we will not be hearing that tonight it is withdrawn.


ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



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JOHN RUSSELL 164-166 SOUTH PLANK ROAD, NBGH (64-4-21) B ZONE

***TWO APPLICATIONS HEARD AS ONE COMBINED***

AREA VARIANCES - Applicant is seeking area variances for the front yard setback, side yards setbacks, combined side yards setbacks, rear yards setbacks and the number of parking spaces for the site plan approval to allow three buildings on one lot (two proposed office – retail buildings and one existing non-conforming single-family residence).

USE VARIANCE – See Use variance application.

Chairperson Cardone: If there is anyone is here this evening interested in the application of John Russell I have a letter concerning that application: We respectfully request that our applications be withdrawn for this project, signed by AJ Coppola. So if anyone is interested in that application we will not be hearing that tonight it is withdrawn.


ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



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GLENN SAMMARCO 1306 UNION AVENUE (EXT), NBGH(14-1-50.12) R-2 ZONE

Applicant is seeking area variances for the allowed maximum square footage of accessory buildings, maximum height of accessory buildings and the maximum allowed storage of (4) four vehicles to build an accessory building (detached garage).

Chairperson Cardone: Our first applicant Glen Sammarco.

Ms. Gennarelli: For tonight's applications all of the Public Hearing Notices for all the new applications being heard this evening were published in The Sentinel on Tuesday, June 19th and in the Mid-Hudson Times on Wednesday, June 20th. This applicant sent out fourteen registered letters, fourteen were returned. All the mailings and publications are in order.

Chairperson Cardone: Okay.

Mr. Coppola: Good evening, my name is AJ Coppola I’m the project architect. Here with me tonight is the homeowner Glenn Sammarco who will also be speaking for this project. I’m just going to begin by giving a brief overview of what we’re proposing…

Ms. Gennarelli: Anthony, could you hold that (mic) closer please? I’m not hearing it.

Mr. Coppola: Is that better?

Ms. Gennarelli: Much better, thank you, you’ve got it now.

Mr. Coppola: Okay, you have to remind me. I’ll give a brief overview of what we’re proposing and we’re asking for in terms of the variances. What we’re proposing is Glenn owns an existing a single-family home at 1306 Union Avenue Extension. It’s basically a raised ranch style house. There were two garages built, originally built underneath it. One of those garages has been converted to storage so that there’s an existing one-car garage in the existing house and that garage is fairly low and not very large at all. What we are proposing is a detached garage twenty feet wide, thirty-two feet deep that’s going to be basically along the southern a…lot line, five feet away from that lot line so it’s going to be pushed away from the house kind of in the middle of the lot from front to back but along…right along the southern lot line and the grade there goes down and if you’ve been there you can probably picture that grade going down. So what’s being proposed is a…basically a…an unheated garage a…no heat or insulation or habitable space here at all. On the exterior there is a 10 x 10 a…overhead front door, a 6 x 12 gable roof, two windows on each side and then a rear…or a side entry door, a swinging door. So it’s…there’s one window in the back so it’s a very simple structure, a… I’ll go over what the variance requests are then a…Glenn will be here to answer any questions as far as its use go. So the three variances that we’ve been referred to a…the first and the easiest to

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understand is the height. Accessory structures must be (15) fifteen feet from the grade to the highest point; we are at (17’9) seventeen foot nine. A…and again we are requesting this because we would wish to have a…12 foot high walls to get an oversized vehicle or perhaps a…be able to get an oversized vehicle and perhaps a boat inside one day so that’s why we need the height in terms of the height of the walls. The second variance request is the…the for the maximum number of vehicles and I’ll let Joe a…correct me if I’m wrong but the way I understand it is while I look at this garage and I…I cannot possibly see how four vehicles could…could be physically go into here. I think that there’s just a straight line square footage calculation that’s done by Code Compliance. So what Code Compliance is saying is four vehicles are able to be parked or…or the square footage for four vehicles is available in the new detached garage plus the one vehicle in the existing a…attached garage under the house gives us five vehicles that’s one more than the Code allows. Again, (inaudible) it’s very difficult or impossible to physically put four cars in here but that…that’s the calculation that…that was used.

Chairperson Cardone: Actually we have drawings that show on the one drawing four vehicles and the other one five vehicles.

Mr. Coppola: I haven’t seen those drawings.

Chairperson Cardone: They were done by Code Compliance.

Mr. Coppola: Okay. The…the last a…variance, the third variance again I’ll let Joe speak to this because I don’t really have…have the exact numbers but we are over the maximum square footage allowance a…for the lot and I believe that includes the square footage of the house, the square footage of all the accessory buildings including our proposed garage divided by the available square footage of the lot is over a certain threshold and I don’t have those numbers in front of me but Joe has probably provided those to you. So that’s it in a nutshell a…if you have any questions regarding the use I’m sure Glenn can speak to that or anything else.

Chairperson Cardone: Actually what we have here is the square footage for the accessory building that does not include the house.

Mr. Coppola: Okay.

Chairperson Cardone: Are you saying there is an additional…Joe?

Mr. Mattina: No, under 185-15 the house is part of the formula. You have the house square footage, the lot size, zoning requirements for setbacks; excuse me, the formula…

Chairperson Cardone: Right.

Mr. Mattina: …of the total square footage of allowed accessory structures or 1000 whichever is less.

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Mr. Mattina: In this case it’s less.

Chairperson Cardone: But the square footage that’s here is only for the accessory building…

Mr. Mattina: Only the accessory buildings.

Chairperson Cardone: …that’s what I was pointing out.

Mr. Mattina: Correct, there’s two other sheds that have permits and possibly C.O.’s already.

Mr. Sammarco: Yes I have the application already for the C.O.’s, they came in the mail.

Mr. Mattina: There’s two…there’s two previous accessory structures, one is ninety-six square foot, one is a hundred and forty-four square foot and we add it to the proposed six forty and that’s where we have our eight-eighty.

Chairperson Cardone: Right. Okay.

Mr. Hughes: Joe, on this it shows what appears to be a dotted line and I’m guessing that’s the building envelope?

Mr. Mattina: Right, that’s the building envelope of the house.

Ms. Gennarelli: Ron, can you pull you mic in please?

Mr. Hughes: Sure. This thing has been built already, it’s obviously where sitting where it’s going sit its five feet from the property line but the middle of the building is right in the middle of the building envelope?

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, the structure is not built yet. The garage isn’t built yet. This needs to be five feet from the property line that’s roughly it looks like a thirty or forty foot side yard setback so five is really all he needs.

Mr. McKelvey: That’s one of the sheds that’s there, right?

Mr. Mattina: Right, the shed was moved…

Mr. Sammarco: Both the sheds are in the back now, yeah.

Mr. Mattina: The shed was moved from this location to the rear location with a Building Permit.

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Mr. Maher: Just to clarify, I think Ron is referring to the fact that the dotted line dissects the garage I don’t think…

Ms. Gennarelli: Mike.

Mr. Maher: …its there. I got you.

Ms. Gennarelli: Sorry.

Mr. Mattina: Yes, that’s not a line…

Mr. Hughes: The garage doesn’t have to be in the building envelope…

Mr. Mattina: No it does not.

Mr. Hughes: …just the main house.

Mr. Mattina: Just the dwelling, correct.

Mr. Hughes: Okay. It’s thirty percent over with the numbers to begin with that’s why you’re up with the discrepancy between the four and five cars. If that building was within the thousand foot max…

Mr. Mattina: Right, the formula gives us…

Mr. Hughes: …you have that square footage to put that many cars in there.

Mr. Mattina: Right, if you had more floor area of the house the thousand square foot might have kicked in then we wouldn’t even be here for that variance.

Chairperson Cardone: But we would still be for the more than four.

Mr. Mattina: We would be for more than four and the height, we’d still be here.


Mr. Mattina: The area variance if the formula didn’t catch him the thousand square foot he would be five.

Mr. Hughes: So we’re three feet over on the altitude and the fifteen that’s a fifth, that’s twenty percent just on the altitude alone.

Mr. Coppola: Two foot nine.

Chairperson Cardone: Eighteen point four percent.

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Mr. Hughes: Eighteen point four and then you’ve got twenty-nine over on the coverage…

Mr. Mattina: Yes, twenty-nine percent.

Mr. McKelvey: Twenty-nine and a half.

Mr. Donovan: But Joe, do I understand you correctly if the house was bigger…?

Mr. Mattina: Right because the square footage of the house goes into the formula…

Mr. Donovan: Right.

Mr. Mattina: …the square footage of the house, the house is, you know, three thousand square foot instead of twenty-five hundred the formula would have let him have a thousand so the formula part because...

Mr. Donovan: Right.

Mr. Mattina: …the house limited the square footage.

Mr. Donovan: Well if you put an addition on your house…

Mr. Mattina: Right.

Mr. Sammarco: One thing at a time.

Chairperson Cardone: But you would still need two variances.

Mr. Mattina: Right, it would still be two variances, yes.


Ms. Drake: In the calculations is the shed that was a…both sheds are included in the calculations?

Mr. Mattina: Yes, ninety-six and a hundred and forty four square feet.

Ms. Drake: On the plan here it shows one shed to be removed after the garage is built?

Mr. Sammarco: It…It’s pretty rotted, I just repaired the doors like the…one of the a…Building Inspectors asked me to do, I did that. If anything it will probably be rotted enough within two years for me to actually start cutting it up and take it to the dump.

Mr. Coppola: Yeah.

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Ms. Drake: I’m just wondering if that shed was removed prior to the…or right after constructing the garage would that actually reduce the variance percentage, Joe?

Mr. Mattina: The nine-six square foot one no because they’re two hundred square foot over. He would have to remove both sheds then he would be at the max.

Ms. Drake: But you’d be…

Mr. Donovan: But it would reduce the magnitude.

Ms. Drake: …reducing the magnitude?

Mr. Mattina: Yes.

Chairperson Cardone: But I see the biggest problem is the fact that there are more than four cars, you know, and I know that in the past this has been an issue and a...

Mr. Maher: Well let me…let me hit that one first…


Mr. Maher: The building is 20 x 32?

Mr. Mattina: Yes.

Mr. Maher: And a Pathfinder is eighteen foot long?

Mr. Mattina: No, that’s my…

Ms. Gennarelli: Mike, Mike, pull that microphone in please.

Mr. Maher: Sorry.

Mr. Mattina: My Pathfinder is six by fourteen, that’s my own…

Mr. Maher: Okay, it says six by eighteen that’s what I was getting…

Mr. Mattina: Well that’s the standard parking space in the Town of Newburgh. The lines just ran together after we photocopied it.

Mr. Maher: Okay.

Mr. Mattina: But a Nissan Pathfinder is fourteen by six.

Mr. Maher: And you…but there’s only one garage door in the front, correct?

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Mr. Mattina: Yes.

Mr. Sammarco: What if you own a Suburban?

Mr. Mattina: I just used my car as an example because it was in the parking lot.

Mr. Hughes: Is the reason for this building that you run some kind of a business out of it?

Mr. Sammarco: No I do not. No. I’m looking to retire in a few years about ten years. I want to purchase a boat in a couple of years coming up. It’s basically for my four wheeler and my snow plow, my lawn equipment, my pool supplies, any household storage that I need.

Mr. Hughes: See a twenty-nine percent with the coverage and three above at the top is there anyway you can (making a motion of cutting)? Our job here is to reduce the amount of variances that you need to complete your project.

Mr. Coppola: Let me speak to that if I could? A…I don’t know if you…one thing on the…on the roof a…we a…we used…we chose a six on twelve roof because that…that’s what matches the house a…then I don’t know and you can answer this if you would be willing to do a four on twelve roof a…you know instead of being this it’s going to be probably eighteen inches below that?

Mr. Sammarco: I would have to discuss it and see what it’s going to look like because I want…I want to as best possible match the house at all costs…the windows…

Mr. Hughes: How far is that from the house, a hundred feet?

Mr. Coppola: No.

Mr. Sammarco: No it’s a…

Mr. Coppola: Sixty?

Mr. Sammarco: Yeah.

Mr. Hughes: What’s your total lot?

Mr. Sammarco: Just under an acre, point nine.

Mr. Coppola: 37,600 so it’s about sixty feet, yeah, sixty feet from the back of the house.

Mr. Hughes: So what Anthony is talking about is the difference between this and this, sixty feet away, you’ll see it but I don’t know if anybody else will, its just more things to put you in a better position for an approval.

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Mr. Coppola: We would still need the variance.

Mr. Hughes: You would still need the variance, yes.

Ms. Drake: But what would the total height be then?

Mr. Coppola: It…it’s probably going to come in…in between the fifteen and the a…and the seven…the seventeen foot nine. Yeah exactly we’re talking inches, you know, as you view inches in a hundred feet.

Mr. Maher: Sixteen…it would be sixteen, one.

Mr. Hughes: Sixteen, one.

Mr. Coppola: Okay, thank you.

Chairperson Cardone: Would that decrease the size?

Mr. Coppola: No, I’m saying…

Chairperson Cardone: Not at all?

Mr. Coppola: …if the footprint stays the same.

Chairperson Cardone: Same.

Mr. Hughes: What about the length or the width of the building, can you…

Mr. Coppola: Well let me speak to…

Mr. Hughes: …still live with that?

Mr. Coppola: …let me speak to that too because Joe’s vehicle is fourteen feet?

Mr. Mattina: Yes.

Mr. Coppola: So the inside of this, I have…

Mr. Hughes: Fourteen or eighteen?

Mr. Mattina: Fourteen.

Mr. Hughes: Really? I didn’t think anything was that short.

Mr. Coppola: Right…

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Mr. Hughes: Fourteen feet for a vehicle.

Mr. Coppola: …right, so I have thirty-one feet on the inside so twenty-eight feet is two vehicle less the thirty-one leaves me three feet in that example, one foot, one foot and one foot.

Mr. Maher: Well I think if….I think if the Town of Newburgh has a six by eighteen as the average size parking space we can utilize that as a dimension for a car.

Mr. Coppola: Well…

Mr. Maher: That would help your case.

Mr. Coppola: Right I…and…and I did some math today cause after…I spoke to Joe about this this week and the way I understood that you calculated it as a legal parking space in the Town of Newburgh is nine (six) by eighteen so whatever square footage that is I divided that by my gross interior floor area and I came up with three point nine parking spaces so its less than four so by that math, you can run it again if you want now, if I can’t fit four I shouldn’t have a variance. That’s, that’s my opinion.

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, the only thing with the parking spaces then once again you have the one foot white lines separating the spots too so really spots are only seven.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, if you go to ten then their ten by twenty-four…

Mr. Mattina: You can slice it either way, the bottom line is the Code says the garage is the storage the vehicles not, you know, not parking in there and use every day. Can you store four vehicle in there and…like I said, I measured out my Pathfinder in the illustration I gave you, I can fit four, you know, and potentially I can get five in there, really.

Mr. Sammarco: I don’t want four vehicles; just a boat is what I’m looking for. I enjoy boating and you know, a twenty-four foot boat with the trailer is you know, going to be close to thirty feet.

Mr. Donovan: Now, I don’t know in terms of an enforcement point of view but if the Board was inclined to issue the variance if you indicate that the structure cannot be used for the storage of more than three vehicles at any time? I don’t know if that’s another way to approach the situation although I don’t assume that Joe is going to drive around the Town of Newburgh looking in the window and counting cars.

Mr. Mattina: Right.

Mr. Sammarco: That’s fine with me.

Chairperson Cardone: The garage that’s attached you use that obviously...

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Mr. Sammarco: I use it really…

Chairperson Cardone: …as a garage?

Mr. Sammarco: …just to go in and out or to put one of my vehicles in the wintertime but I don’t like keeping a car in there because my furnace is in there and my oil tank.

Chairperson Cardone: Right. So in essence you wouldn’t be using that anymore as…

Mr. Sammarco: Absolutely not.

Chairperson Cardone: …as a garage.

Mr. Sammarco: No. Right now I buy…I have two pellet stoves, I buy four pallets of pellets a year and they have to go in there. I just can’t afford, you know, the oil and stuff it’s too expensive.


Mr. Coppola: I…I think the Building Department looks as a garage anything with an overhead door.


Mr. Coppola: And there is an overhead door there.


Mr. Coppola: The overhead door was taken down previously and now that’s part of the basement.

Ms. Drake: So if the overhead doors were removed there so therefore it wouldn’t qualify as a garage is that an option?

Mr. Sammarco: It could be an option...could be an option.

Ms. Drake: It could eliminate a variance for you.

Mr. Donovan: Well Joe, would it? One of your examples has five cars in the a…

Mr. Mattina: I was just getting to the extreme where, you know, if you really wanted to push the envelope, buy yourself a dolly I could fit five cars in there. It…it’s unrealistic but…

Ms. Drake: You’d need a dolly to slide it all the way down…

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Mr. Mattina: Right.

Ms. Drake: … because you…


Ms. Drake: …couldn’t maneuver it get it in there that way.

Mr. Maher: But based…based on the layout with the garage door at the end of the building and the standing parking place being eighteen foot long it’s not feasible nor possible to fit four eighteen foot cars in the garage.

Mr. Mattina: Right but a parking space isn’t directly related…

Mr. Maher: I understand.

Mr. Mattina: …to the square footage. I need…if you guys would set a precedent and would say okay, here is the square foot per vehicle per car I’ll use that. There’s nothing in our Code book that says a car is this big. You know…

Mr. Hughes: So the translation, if you will, from what the square footage allows you with cars is what you’re calculating your opinion from…?

Mr. Mattina: Correct.

Mr. Hughes: …and what they’re drawing on the footprint is the total building with all the regulations attached to it so…

Mr. Maher: No, no I…

Mr. Hughes: …its kind of you can’t convert the way he’s doing it to what they have drawn on the plan and come up with a…?

Mr. Maher: No I understand but I don’t think you’re doing it by square footage are you? You are not doing a nine by eighteen square footage calculation are you?

Mr. Hughes: No, the applicant is.

Mr. Mattina: No, that’s that’s…right.

Mr. Hughes: Joe is calculating it by the number of cars.

Mr. Mattina: Where he gets the nine by eighteen is a standard parking space…

Mr. Maher: Right, if you have to open the door to get out of the vehicle, right.

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Mr. Mattina: …with the one foot each way…

Mr. Maher: Right.

Mr. Mattina: …you know that’s one way but there is no set way to determine the size of a vehicle for the storage of the vehicles.

Mr. Hughes: Okay so that if this were to be approved and the applicant was willing to cut down from a twelve by twelve to a thirty degree angle on the roof, and save a couple of feet there and a couple of other moves to better his position…would you be agreeable to say that you are never going to park a lot of cars in there that you’re looking for the car and the boat?

Mr. Sammarco: Abs…if you need me to sign papers I won’t…I won’t build three cars in there.

Mr. Hughes: I don’t know if we’ll get that formal but you know what we’re looking for here is when we get a…a sheet in here and it shows five vehicles in there sideways, we’re wondering if you’re doing bodywork?

Mr. Sammarco: No absolutely not.

Mr. Hughes: Or running a business or something?

Mr. Sammarco: No.

Mr. Hughes: So its personal stuff…

Mr. Sammarco: Personal stuff.

Mr. Hughes: …it’s for your property only there’s no…

Mr. Sammarco: Property, my family, absolutely.

Mr. Maher: But if…if that in fact is the case then I’m not comfortable making him remove the garage door from his current house.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Mr. Maher: I mean that should be able to remain as it is.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, yeah. There’s no reason he would have to go through something like that as long as everybody in the room has a clear understanding.

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Mr. Sammarco: I don’t own three cars, I own two cars, my son lives there, my mother lives there. There’s no way chance of me having four cars in there, three cars in there ever.

Mr. Maher: Joe are you able to store six or seven cars in your driveway?

Mr. Mattina: Yes, exterior (inaudible).

Mr. Hughes: Registered.

Mr. Mattina: Right as long as they are registered and roadway there is no limitation.

Mr. Maher: So we’d rather have them exposed than covered?

Mr. Donovan: He has the right of his own lawyer.

Mr. Maher: I understand, I understand.

Mr. Mattina: I can only go by what’s in writing.

Mr. Maher: I understand. Just to clarify, it wouldn’t be a thirty degree pitch in the roof.

Mr. Hughes: What would it be?

Mr. Maher: Twenty-two and a half is a six twelve so it’s less than that.

Mr. Hughes: Okay.

Mr. Maher: It’d be minimal, I mean if I think…you know…I think the fact that there is no room upstairs in this particular structure a…that the excessive, you know, the height is not really an issue in…in my eyes.

Mr. Coppola: (Inaudible) truss roof.

Mr. Hughes: Did you mention a twelve foot ceiling in this?

Mr. Coppola: A…twelve foot is the top of the wall so…

Mr. Hughes: So what do you have from the…up in triangle what do you have in the truss?

Mr. Coppola: Well it would be twelve foot if we…we do a…a bottom cord, we may do a…a scissors truss and that would give him a few more feet. I don’t think we…we…even decided that yet.

Mr. Hughes: You’re not going to be able to put anything up there.

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Mr. Coppola: No.

Mr. Sammarco: It would just absolutely not…

Mr. Coppola: We’d be able to get to it it’s just be clear open space.

Mr. Sammarco: Hang bikes on the ceiling maybe.

Chairperson Cardone: Is there anyone from the public who would like to speak to this? Please state your name.

Mr. Deyo: John Deyo I live at 1308 Union Avenue which is basically right next door and basically I just wanted to say I have no problem with what’s presented, no issues.

Chairperson Cardone: Okay, thank you.

Mr. Deyo: Basically it, thank you.

Chairperson Cardone: Do we have anything else from the Board?

Mr. McKelvey: You’d be acceptable to these a…what they’re saying there?

Mr. Sammarco: Sure.

Chairperson Cardone: Do I have a motion to close the Public Hearing?

Mr. Maher: I’ll make a motion to…

Chairperson Cardone: Oh, just one minute I didn’t read the report from the County which is Local Determination. Now I’m ready for a motion.

Mr. Maher: I’ll make a motion to close the Public Hearing.

Ms. Drake: Second.

Ms. Gennarelli: Roll call.

John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

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Grace Cardone: Yes

Chairperson Cardone: Thank you.

Mr. Coppola: Thank you very much


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ZBA MEETING – JUNE 28, 2012 (Resumption for decision: 8:47 PM)

GLENN SAMMARCO 1306 UNION AVENUE (EXT), NBGH(14-1-50.12) R-2 ZONE

Applicant is seeking area variances for the allowed maximum square footage of accessory buildings, maximum height of accessory buildings and the maximum allowed storage of (4) four vehicles to build an accessory building (detached garage).

Chairperson Cardone: The Board is resuming its regular meeting. On the first application Glenn Sammarco, 1306 Union Avenue (Extension), seeking area variances for the allowed maximum square footage of accessory buildings, maximum height of accessory buildings and the maximum allowed storage of (4) four vehicles to build an accessory building (detached garage). This is a Type II Action under SEQRA. Do we have discussion on this application?

Mr. Hughes: (Inaudible) You got it?

Ms. Gennarelli: Now its on, thank you.

Mr. Hughes: The applicant isn’t here any longer and there was a discussion about the possibility of reducing the altitude of the building and some other items. So I don’t know if there is no one here from that application.

Chairperson Cardone: Well I think there was also the issue that there was only one garage door and that with the one garage door it would be much more difficult to put four vehicles in there.

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Ms. Drake: And using the parking space size for a parking spot of eighteen square feet would also render it difficult to fit four vehicles.

Mr. McKelvey: Plus he’s not going to use the garage in the house for the car.

Mr. Hughes: I…I don’t know if I missed the point but I thought that the applicant had agreed to lower the roof.

Mr. Maher: I thought he did too.

Mr. Hughes: And so, you know, I wouldn’t have a problem approving this if that condition were added to the presentation.

Mr. McKelvey: I think he agreed.

Mr. Hughes: He did but he is not here now to confirm that and I...

Chairperson Cardone: But he would still need a variance even if he lowered it.

Mr. Hughes: But we’re reducing the requirement.

Mr. Donovan: I just need to know to what height it would be reduced.

Mr. Hughes: I thought he told us…

Mr. Maher: I believe he said sixteen one would take two inches off and go to a four twelve pitch. My only concern by making it sixteen one is in the fact that the grade is slightly different in front; it may vary an inch or so ultimately a… when measured.

Mr. Hughes: Well he agreed to reduce the height on that and I’d like to follow up on it.

Mr. Maher: Would you be comfortable just specifying a four twelve pitch in the roof?

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Mr. Maher: To accommodate that?

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, sure.

Mr. Donovan: Is that sufficient for Code Compliance?

Mr. Mattina: Yes, Anthony will do the four twelve; he’ll give us the snow loads and stuff like that. It shouldn’t be an issue.

Mr. Hughes: It will still put it over but it reduces the footage.

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Chairperson Cardone: Okay. Do I have a motion?

Ms. Drake: I'll make a motion to approve the application with a four two pitch on the roof, four what?

Mr. Hughes: Four twelve.

Ms. Drake: Four twelve pitch on the roof.

Mr. Donovan: And with regard to the a…accessory structure, are we going to indicate that it can only be used in accordance with Town Code?

Ms. Drake: Yes.

Chairperson Cardone: That is correct.

Mr. Hughes: The applicant stated he is not running a business out of there. Its for his personal stuff.

Chairperson Cardone: We have a motion, do we have a second?

Mr. McKelvey/Mr. Hughes: Second.

Ms. Gennarelli: Ron are you the second.

Mr. Hughes: John.

Mr. McKelvey: Ron.

Ms. Gennarelli: (Making a pointing at each other motion) Are we doing this?

Mr. Hughes: Yes.

Ms. Gennarelli: Okay who is the second?

Mr. McKelvey: Ron.

Ms. Gennarelli: Ron? Okay, thank you.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

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Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes

Chairperson Cardone: The motion is carried.


ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



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TLC CENTRAL LLC (APPLEBEE’S) 1205 ROUTE 300, NBGH(95-1-39.22) B ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area variance for the maximum amount of allowed signage to erect signs.

Chairperson Cardone: The next applicant TLC Central LLC (Applebee’s).

Ms. Gennarelli: This applicant sent out six registered letters, six were returned. All the mailings and publications are in order.

Chairperson Cardone: State your name for the record please.

Mr. Bell: My name is Steve Bell; I am the director of construction for TL Cannon Applebee’s Restaurants.

Chairperson Cardone: And could you state your request?

Mr. Bell: Yes, we are here seeking a variance for the allowable signage on our building. Right now TL Cannon and Applebee’s is doing a rebranding. We own and operate sixty Applebee’s between New York and Connecticut. So far we’ve completed probably approximately thirty, twenty-five to thirty restaurants a…of what we call our net interior and exterior rebranding. Its our first complete rebranding of both interior and exterior that we’ve taken place since it came about in the ’90’s with local businesses and national businesses obviously everybody is trying to keep afloat financially and about three, four years ago we started going through this testing and a…with corporate Applebee’s, etc. of rebranding the restaurants trying to drive traffic, business, attract it a little bit differently we had in the past. In certain municipalities the biggest issue that we’ve had with probably twenty percent of municipalities is that the Applebee’s, the apples on the awnings are considered signage in certain places and other places it is not considered signage. So currently we are basically wanting to replace the what we would consider the basic of the Applebee’s signage which is our new logo, it’s LED, saving energy. The pylon itself replacing that which exists and then where the variance really grows is that each new awning which is a metal down lit that awning which again is LED illuminated then creates the large variance based upon nine awnings, nine apples which the square footage then grows tremendously at this point. But for the basis of the actually…of what you would consider your typical, prototypical signage that square footage we’re actually looking to remove the Neighborhood Grill & Bar so it removes…it actually eliminates true signage but seeing as that the silhouettes and the apples are considered signage obviously then it gets increased. The local…the only one even close to hear that we’ve done already would be in the Town of Middletown, Wallkill. So we’re going to be doing Central Valley or one down in Woodbury Commons and Kingston and Poughkeepsie, down the road but right now a…Newburgh was trying to remodel that one both inside and exterior sometime in the month of September. And your current front elevation we

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have changed a little and that’s more of an architectural has nothing to do with the signage. If you wanted to see copies of that I have that but we’re adding stone to the tower portion of the building which accents the front entrance also versus just leaving it brick. Again if you want to see that I have copies of that also.

Mr. Donovan: Do we know what the existing square footage of a…signage is?

Mr. Bell: The front Applebee’s and Neighborhood Grill & Bar is (69.94) sixty-nine point nine-four.

Mr. McKelvey: Plus the road sign.

Mr. Bell: The road sign currently is (140) a hundred and forty square feet and we also have a car side to go neon which is (9.81) nine point eight-one. The pole sign in itself would be going from (140) a hundred and forty to (125.7) a hundred and twenty-five point seven. And in the front elevation of (69) sixty-nine again speaking of typical signage would then go down to (40) forty square feet but then each one of the apples is (22) twenty-two square feet so you got (22) twenty-two times basically (9) nine.

Mr. Donovan: Now with the existing Applebee’s weren’t counting any of the awnings, correct?

Mr. Bell: That’s correct because that’s...

Mr. Donovan: I don’t know if you have this calculation, if you did count those awnings…I’m trying to get a feel for what is there now versus…

Mr. Bell: The square footage of the awnings would be if…you know, of…I mean because that’s been brought up before that the striped awning sometimes represents Applebee’s to a lot of people and I don’t have that with me right now but the square footage of that would be more than the apples because its…it’s a seven by four feet, twenty-eight that’s eight six actually on the front.

Chairperson Cardone: Joe could you help us with this?

Mr. Mattina: Yes, basically with the old signage on the Applebee’s there was no art, was no lettering, there was no representation of the awnings so just the color awning doesn’t count. It’s when you go adding the stripe, you add the apple logo then that turns the awning into a…a sign.


Mr. Donovan: And I understand that I just for…for I mean if you drive down the road today you’re going to see an awning. If you drive down the road if this gets approved you’re going to see a different awning. Right? So…

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Mr. Bell: With the square footage it can get…just not being precise would be approximately each awning as it exists right now, you know four foot height and nine feet, eight and a half, nine feet you’re talking thirty-five square feet give or take…each, each awning with just stripes.

Mr. Maher: Right, the current awnings are indicative of the logo correct? With the stripes on the awnings…

Mr. Bell: Right, at one point…at one point that was our…called our trademark awning. No one had a striped awning you know and now a lot of people have different…and that’s why the rebranding that they went through many renditions till we got to…you know, we’ve got a yellow, a green and a red version of this awning that we currently use.

Mr. Donovan: And I’m not at all questioning Joe’s interpretation of what constitutes a sign or not a sign. Just one of the things for the Board to consider, you know, we look at the percentage of the…of the overage and I did for future reference, we might go through this later, go back to some of the other sign variances we issued to look at the percentage allocable to those as well. But the other issue is the overall effect of granting the variance so when you…when you evaluate the magnitude of the variance you’re considering granting you don’t necessarily hang your hat only on the percentage overage. You look at the overall effect of granting the variance so I’m just trying to get a feel for what’s on the building now, whether it falls under the definition of a sign or not, what’s there now, what’s going to be there after and what’s the square footage deferential.

Mr. Bell: If…if you use the existing awning versus the new one you have a negative ten to twelve square feet per awning. So if you were considering the stripe as a technical signage or awning square footage as far as the apple…

Mr. Donovan: Let’s leave to the sign whether it’s a sign or not. I want to know, if you can tell us with any degree of certainty the total square footage of the awnings versus the total square of old awnings versus total square footage of new awnings.

Mr. Bell: Again that would be again approximately four by eight and a half feet so that’s what thirty-six square feet, thirty-four square feet?

Mr. Maher: Thirty-four, yeah.

Chairperson Cardone: Joe, do you have a total for the total signage that’s there right now? I think that’s really what we’re looking for. The total signage of what’s there right now as opposed to what they’re proposing.

Mr. Bell: I gave that…I gave that to you.

Mr. Donovan: Yeah, I think we’re talking about two-hundred and ten square feet, right?

Mr. Bell: Give us, well seventy plus ten…

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Mr. Donovan: I mean around (inaudible) sign.

Mr. Bell: …about a hundred and forty, yeah, two hundred and ten square feet of existing signage.

Ms. Drake: Well my question on that that does not include the existing awning?

Mr. Donovan: It does not.

Mr. Bell: Correct, that does not include the existing awnings.

Ms. Drake: Even though they have a stripe on them they’re not considered signs?

Mr. Maher: And the…the existing awnings are about…about three hundred and forty square feet existing awnings.

Mr. Donovan: Okay.

Mr. Bell: All right.


Mr. Donovan: So that would bring us up to five fifty versus nine seventy one. So that’s…if we…if we just looked at that.

Ms. Drake: You also have, okay just looking at the awnings, okay. Because you also have To Go, To Park signs there now.

Mr. Bell: The what?

Ms. Drake: You also have To Go, To Park signs there now.

Mr. Bell: Right and I…I…not being a hundred percent familiar I believe that’s a more of a direct I don’t know if that…I don’t believe that’s taken into consideration on signage because its directional signage like handicap parking, etc. I don’t know that though.

Ms. Drake: Yeah, I don’t know that either.

Mr. Bell: Typically, every…every, you know, municipality is different obviously.

Mr. McKelvey: That came before us for the Car Side…

Mr. Mattina: Right what that…

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Mr. Bell: That was the…was that the neon that is on the building or did that include the Car Side To Go parking sign?

Mr. Mattina: The directional signage only counts if it’s over four square feet I’m pretty sure. You’re allowed a two by two directional anything over that is not considered a directional sign; this is added to the signage.

Ms. Drake: All right so then you’re adding a new sign on the building then for the To Go parking for the To Go over the To Go door or whatever?

Mr. Bell: That would basically replace the neon that’s up on the wall and it just goes on to the awning so it kind of matches the awning. So if you would like for instance right now if you were to leave the…forget about the pylon for a second, the total proposal for square footage for the building is two hundred and seventy, two hundred and eighty square feet if you’re…again considering the Applebee’s, the apples on the awnings as the…the signage, that’s two hundred and eighty square feet.

Mr. McKelvey: Is this the Car Side?

Mr. Bell: Yeah, that’s…that would be part of the awning where right now it’s a separate signage that’s attached to the building.

Chairperson Cardone: And each awning is going to have the apple on it?

Mr. Bell: Yes, you’ll have a silhouette, silhouette and then a colored apple and then there’s a LED bar that shines back on it a…illuminating it at nighttime and then the light bars, is what we call it, go dark once you hit the parapet so there’s not exposed light above the parapet wall or the roofline.

Mr. Hughes: So winding the clock back, you were supposed to have a hundred square feet because of the footage that’s in front of the building to begin with and there was a certain percentage over the top of that that we’ve already infringed on and if this all adds up something doesn’t seem right to me but I’ll ask a question. I’m reading on a chart here that you’re eight hundred and seventy-one percent over?

Mr. Bell: Well I…I guess I’m questioning and not to question the calculator but that request of the total of nine hundred and seventy two square feet I’m not sure and that was the letter from Joe.

Mr. Hughes: Joe, do you know what the original footages were?

Mr. Mattina: No, I don’t I already…

Mr. Hughes: I’m reading three different renditions of how we got to this point and it says that they were allowed to have a hundred square feet to begin with which was varied but I don’t have a copy of what was varied but I don’t have a copy of what it was varied for.

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Mr. Mattina: Well a hundred square feet is what they’re allowed for zoning based on their road frontage…

Mr. Hughes: Footage.

Mr. Mattina: Correct what they were previously approved for you know, in the early nineties I don’t have that information.

Mr. Hughes: Okay, so if we knew what that number was and we deducted that number that was allotted already from what they’re looking for now it might have a better picture.

Mr. Mattina: Let me see if I can find it real quick.

Mr. Bell: Do you have…out of curiosity, how you came up with the nine hundred and seventy two square feet calculation of the…of that was our request?

Mr. Mattina: Basically just between all the awnings, the…

Mr. Bell: So you’re counting the whole of the awning versus the actual just the signage part on it?

Mr. Mattina: Correct. Correct. The entire awning, when there is artwork displayed on the awning the entire awning counts as signage square footage wise because it’s all part of the representation of Applebee’s. You don’t figure in just the apple since the apple is part of the canopy, the canopy is an entire sign.

Mr. Bell: Okay.

Chairperson Cardone: So if the silhouettes were eliminated…?

Mr. Mattina: Then it’s not an issue.

Chairperson Cardone: Then it’s not an issue those awnings.

Mr. Bell: Well it’s not a sign then.

Chairperson Cardone: Then it’s not a sign.

Mr. Bell: Right, it…right.

Mr. Maher: Joe, one more question. On the sheet for the a…the issues as far as for the a…the total allowed signs is a hundred square feet?

Mr. Mattina: Right.

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Mr. Maher: On the…on the letter that was sent to…?

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, that was a typo; I said…I said fifty.

Mr. Maher: Okay.

Mr. Mattina: That was incorrect.

Mr. Maher: Okay.

Mr. Hughes: All right, what about those percentages are they real numbers or is that a mistake?

Mr. Mattina: No, these are real numbers of what they are proposing.

Mr. Bell: And…and again because again I was under…again every municipality, you know I keep referring to that, calculates signage different where if you were just the apple square footage but once you take and consider that the awning is, you know, technically eight feet by…depending on it, eight six then that number goes from twenty-three square feet up to eighty square foot per awning, okay.

Mr. Hughes: Times nine.

Mr. Bell: Right, times nine, right yeah, I was trying to get where the nine seventy came from versus…

Mr. Hughes: So then let me ask you this.

Mr. Bell: Certainly.

Mr. Hughes: In your divine wisdom as a corporate executive you’re to make this project come through. Can your company live with every other one having the apple on it and not and to reduce the number of…? You go ewe but…

Mr. Bell: Well if…if…if you’re…if you’re at the point of let’s make a deal a…

Mr. Hughes: Well there’s no dealers here that you’re going to make a deal with…

Mr. Bell: There’s no wheel.

Mr. Hughes: Except to go home.

Mr. Bell: As opposed to every other one which I…in a…first of all I’m not a marketing person but I’ve listed to enough marketing spiels that would just look really horrendous. Okay?

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Mr. Hughes: This is a no frills play here.

Mr. Bell: Hey, you know I…(inaudible) that’s what I’m in so that’s all I’m saying. A…a preference would be that if you said all right we need to reduce, we’re willing to work then I would say I would rather see the side awnings completely reduced to what we’ve done at a certain location which we call it the swoosh. It’s just a artistic brush stroke so that it gives some breakup versus just all yellow and you know, because obviously the most, the first important side is obviously the road side. You know that’s what we’re trying to attract, the other one as I was sitting there today watching forty cars come into our parking lot, every ten minutes and unfortunately thirty-nine of them were going to Wal-Mart using it as a shortcut that would be the second because that is a lot of, you know, frontage to that parking lot of the Applebee’s. But as opposed to every other one, I would rather I would say okay give me the front and then let’s talk about eliminating one of the sides. (Inaudible)

Mr. Hughes: Speaking generically about…

Mr. Bell: Right.

Mr. Hughes: …moving stuff around but what can you do to eliminate? That’s a…that’s a whopping percentage over, that’s a very difficult thing. That’s in this game they call that substantial and we’re not supposed to…

Mr. Bell: Right.

Mr. Hughes: …give substantial. So…

Mr. Donovan: Let me just for a frame of reference I looked over some of the sign variances we’ve granted in the relatively recent past. On the larger ones, the two larger ones and I’m going to take out the Marketplace because that’s kind of a different animal altogether. But Enterprise Rental Car the magnitude if you will on a percentage basis was 540%. They were only allowed seventy-five feet and we gave them 480 sq. ft. and the other one was the Nowab the hotel application, where we actually gave them 1415% over. If you remember they had that little pole going out to the street so they only…I think they had less than fifty feet of frontage on that road so when you get half the frontage a…you know they were only allowed about twenty-five feet and we gave them over four hundred square feet. On a percentage basis have we ever gone over eight hundred and seventy-one percent? You actually have.

Mr. Hughes: I think if you’ll review the record more closely you’ll see that they have another entrance on another highway on that corner and that attributed to the overage and I…I don’t want to argue with you but I’m going to tell you it’s a lot different when you do the numbers out in full and that’s why I’m looking for here…

Mr. Donovan: Ron, you’re always…you’re always entitled to argue with me. We actually gave on the other frontage; it was a two hundred and ten percent variance.

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Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Mr. Donovan: We gave…we gave signs variances on each frontage.

Mr. Hughes: The guy at the car place agreed to go with a generic awning instead of a labeled awning and that reduced his by...I forget how much.

Mr. Donovan: I’m just…I’m just talking…

Mr. Hughes: Okay. Yeah well I mean…

Mr. Donovan: …about the differences (Inaudible)

Mr. Hughes: …generically about fitting up an outfit that’ll work but when we get down to the specifics I’d like to know what I’m talking about and not do something that we’re going way over. That’s a…that’s a high percentage. If I can suggest to the Board and for everyone’s consideration if we make a move in that same direction where they’d be willing to reduce the sign awning to a more generic awning we can reduce some of it that way and the applicant seems to be a…willing to pursue that area.

Mr. Bell: Keep in, you know, keep in mind I mean and again, I know at the end of the day it’s not your job to analyze our financial, you know, we’re…we’re here…

Mr. Hughes: Yeah. (Inaudible)

Mr. Bell: …the whole idea is you know, we’re going to each of these remodels and investing between two hundred and fifty and three hundred thousand dollars in an economy that we’re saying some restaurants it doesn’t make sense but we…we have to do it. You know, we have people coming in, other restaurants, etc. and everyone always says, well I go in there and you’re always on a wait. Yeah, well you’re at five o’clock and six o’clock on a Friday night we are on a wait. The other days when we’re not you know again we, you know as a company and you take a look at growth and we’re down in growth so we’re sitting there doing every that we possibly can and part of it, and I’m not the marketing guru by any means, you know but we’ve seen the case studies and the signage studies that they did many renderings and different of how are we attracting guest. What can we do to reinvent ourselves? Because if we don’t, you know, five years from now if we won’t be here, you know, its so…that’s how, you know, if…because if you’re not only doing exterior which is to a tune of eighty to a hundred thousand but the interior between a hundred and fifty and two hundred depending on the depth it that we do. So, you know, it is very critical for us to walk away and still have that new rebranding without losing everything because, you know, to me at the end of the day I build them one way or another that’s not the issue and the cost of them doesn’t but the marketing. Can we still attract with what we’ve decided?

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Mr. McKelvey: It’s a pretty busy Applebee’s though, you go by there in the evening and the parking lot is always full.

Mr. Bell: Yeah half of it is Wal-Mart customers shopping…no, I’m only kidding. It…it…you know what it, in all reality and you know again, you’ve got to take me for my, you know, word whether…at one time it was on our top five restaurants in our company out of sixty restaurants, right now its middle of the road as far as performance. You know we’ve had a lot of…you know, ten years ago we were the only national brand out there since then Chili’s, Longhorn’s, Panera, Five Guys, Friday’s all have come in and there’s more to come. So we, you know staying with the Joneses you have to, as I said before, you got to reinvent yourself otherwise than that we’ll be the Ground Round of tomorrow. And I love the Ground Round; I worked for them for seven years so…

Mr. McKelvey: Because of the no left turn out they had to go through Wal-Mart.

Mr. Bell: Oh, you know, it…

Mr. McKelvey: For the light.

Mr. Bell: Yeah, I mean, it’s…it’s…it now again I sat there and just watched and forty cars came in and one was an Applebee’s and it was just…and because they’ve been…they’re saying is there anything that I can do to…? I’m like that was part of the approval and now everybody that lives here obviously knows that it’s easier to cut through there than it is to go up to the light and therefore the biggest issue that we have with it which is a whole another conversation is that our concrete and our parking lot gets trashed by Wal-Mart trucks using it. Semi’s which isn’t even a customer base but if they were coming in first and then going shopping that would be different but I just sat there and watched. I was like wow.

Chairperson Cardone: If you took away the apple that’s on the side how much would that bring it down?

Mr. Bell: I don’t have any, his calculation is going to be the more accurate one because again I wasn’t taking into consideration but if you eliminated say the one side obviously your reducing at that percentage by, you know, thirty percent because if you’ve got nine awnings I mean thirty-three percent basically is on each side of just the awnings alone.

Chairperson Cardone: Right, because I think that’s Ron is looking at.

Mr. Bell: Right.

Chairperson Cardone: You know, what can we do to reduce it that would hurt you the least let’s say?

Mr. Bell: Yes.

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Ms. Drake: Do you really need the symbols on the back side?

Mr. Bell: On the…those, yeah those, yeah…

Ms. Drake: They’re small but the…

Mr. Bell: On the backside its more of, you know it goes with the flow and in certain locations, yeah it does identify us backing up to a basically, you know, a swamp and a fenced in area no so those…that’s just part of our standard that when we’re going in for a variance you know, we’re going to put them on there. So that would be, you know the easy ones to…

Mr. Hughes: Joe do you know if all of those little signs are calculated incorrectly in this or were the two point two and less deleted from this formula?

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, even two by two directional signs were not calculated in this. They are exempt.

Mr. Hughes: This is all the stuff…

Ms. Gennarelli: Ron, you need to talk into the microphone.

Mr. Hughes: I’m sorry.

Ms. Gennarelli: Thanks.

Mr. Mattina: This is the Order To Go, the freestanding signs, the new Applebee’s with the apple on the front, all the awnings.

Mr. Bell: The…the…those parking signs would be less four square feet, each one, yeah, yeah.

Mr. Hughes: I just wanted to make sure…

Mr. Bell: Sure, yes.

Mr. Hughes: …he didn’t include those…

Mr. Bell: Right.

Mr. Hughes: …to make your percentage that much further out of the park.

Mr. Mattina: Freestanding sign, now you have…you have your Applebee’s up top, now you have a message board that’s double sided.

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Mr. Hughes: Yeah. So do you think you can find the original variance of the overage so that we know what that number is and deduct that from what we’re looking at here?

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, I’ll go over and see if I can find the site plan.

Mr. Hughes: Because that would put you in a better bargaining position and then use your creativity about what you can shuffle around and when you said that swish or swash or whatever…

Mr. Bell: Artistic swash.

Mr. Mattina: When I do my calculations variances I don’t take into consideration because that’s…the signage now is not what they were approved back then so to me it’s a, you know, it’s a wash I start with zero.

Mr. Hughes: I see what you’re saying there but to me it doesn’t...

Mr. Mattina: I’ll go look at the site plan and we’ll see...

Mr. Hughes: ...it doesn’t look like an off-setting penalty to me, if I was him I would want to know what the original number was to start.

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, I’ll go grab the site plan.

Mr. Hughes: Okay.

Ms. Drake: Joe, before you leave…

Mr. Mattina: Yes.

Ms. Drake: …would an artistic swash on a awning be considered a sign?

Mr. Mattina: What do you mean artistic swash?

Ms. Drake: He’s saying…

Mr. Bell: It’s…it’s just a brush stroke but it doesn’t represent Applebee’s it goes from a yellow to a…so that it’s a two tone. It’d be no different than I’m having two tone or three tone awnings…(Inaudible)

Mr. Mattina: I would…I would think that just a color canopy would necessarily count the signage but when you start getting fancy with silhouettes and…

Mr. Maher: Well didn’t we…wasn’t that the issue we had with Enterprise…?

Mr. Hughes: It was.

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Mr. Maher: …that there were two colors continued around the whole perimeter and we did consider that signage?

Mr. Mattina: Right but there was also lettering on the front of that awning which continued all the way around the building. So you did away with…

Mr. Hughes: A reduction in both.

Mr. Mattina: Right.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Chairperson Cardone: And that was part of their logo.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Chairperson Cardone: That’s what it was.


Mr. Bell: Yeah, this swish has nothing to do with except of somebody saying, you know, to break up the monotony of just a straight yellow pan awning.

Mr. Hughes: But it would be recognized that your company uses that?

Mr. Bell: I doubt it. I mean it’s just…I mean I wouldn’t think anybody recognize who…that’s the Nike…we call it the Nike swish which it’s not but…you know, that’s but, you know its just a, you know, paint brush basically with just zigzags just to give it a two tone effect more than anything. So it’d be like the equivalent of making one yellow and one going dark yellow, one yellow which would look artistically ugly but…so…

Chairperson Cardone: Okay, I have the report from the Orange County Department of Planning which is Local Determination. Do we have anyone from the public who would like to speak to this application? Any other questions or comments from the Board?

Ms. Drake: Do we want to hold this open, the Public Hearing open until we find out what Joe provides us?

Mr. Donovan: Well if you think that is going to generate any additional public comment otherwise do you think whatever information Joe brings you tonight would result in a reason to keep the Public Hearing open? Joe is either going to come back and say, I don’t…I can’t find anything or you gave a variance for X.

Mr. Maher: Just one note.

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Mr. Bell: Certainly.

Mr. Maher: A…in the calculation…

Mr. Bell: Which calculation?

Mr. Maher: A…of this…

Mr. Bell: Of the pylon sign? Okay.

Mr. Maher: The pylon sign.

Mr. Bell: Yeah.

Mr. Maher: The first page you have a show are of seventy-eight square feet, when you did your calculation did you double that? Being two sided?

Mr. Bell: No.

Mr. Maher: Okay, so that’s part of what Joe has information from, same thing with the second page on the removable letters you have forty-seven square feet makes it ten by four nine or so…

Mr. Bell: Well, I…I don’t know what his calculation is…if…

Mr. Maher: No I’m saying on the…

Mr. Bell: …if that doubled but I mean, if you…if the Newburgh counts both sides as footage that is the first…all right, that’s out of eighty ones that we’ve done over the years, that would be the first one that’s counted both sides into the calculation because usually they say its one sided. But again that’s…and again, you know, I wouldn’t have counted it, he obviously came…

Mr. Maher: Right, no I (Inaudible)

Mr. Bell: …up with it so I’m assuming he did with his ninety, nine hundred…

Chairperson Cardone: He did.

Mr. Bell: …with a number so large and he did mention that.

Mr. Maher: (Inaudible)

Mr. Bell: Okay I wasn’t clear on that, that the Town of Newburgh does count both sides. Right?

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Mr. Hughes: They do count both sides.

Mr. Bell: They do. Okay.

Ms. Drake: I’ll make a motion to close the Public Hearing.

Mr. Hughes: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes



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TLC CENTRAL LLC (APPLEBEE’S) 1205 ROUTE 300, NBGH(95-1-39.22) B ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area variance for the maximum amount of allowed signage to erect signs.

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Chairperson Cardone: On the application TLC Central LLC, 1205 Route 300, seeking an area variance for the maximum amount of allowed signage to erect signs. This is an Unlisted Action under SEQRA. Do I have a motion for a Negative Dec?

Mr. McKelvey: I'll make a motion for a Negative Dec.

Ms. Drake: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes

Chairperson Cardone: Do we have discussion on this application?

Mr. Hughes: Did you read in what the County had to say about this one?

Chairperson Cardone: Yes.

Mr. Hughes: I thought you did.

Chairperson Cardone: I did.

Mr. Hughes: Okay.

Chairperson Cardone: Joe…that’s at the point you wanted to discuss with Joe. Do you want to give us those figures again?

Mr. Mattina: In 1997 they were granted two hundred and ninety-seven square foot of signage. In 2005 they were granted thirty-six square foot of signage for a total of three hundred and thirty-three. They were allowed one hundred point two-five so the variance they received was for two hundred and thirty-two point seven-five square feet. Subtract what they already were granted the variances for from my totals and they would be requesting six hundred and thirty-nine square feet additionally from the original variance.

Mr. Hughes: Mr. Maher, could you go over those figures so we know what we’re looking at?

37

Mr. Maher: Yes, based on a…page 185-16.1 definition number two, as we discussed earlier, a…the calculations that we’re…we’re looking at ultimately and I’ll go by page number to clarify it. The top right hand corner in red 120A1 which is the pylon sign, seventy (eight) square feet times two, gives us a hundred and fifty-six square feet for that particular sign. 000A1 is the bottom section of the pylon sign a…forty-seven point seven in essence ninety-six feet of area needed there. Page 120I, I believe it is, a…three of the awnings with the colored apple on it, those three combined are going to be given at…at the a sixty-eight square foot total. Page 120H a…the six awnings, we discussed removing three of them so three of those awnings would be a…similar color apple on it an additional sixty-eight feet. We have the Carside To Go sign a…at fourteen square feet, fourteen point three to be exact. We have the one sign over the rear door, I’m sorry the side door at four square feet, which is page 00C; I’m sorry 000C, one of those. We discussed removing the ones from the rear of the building a… making them straight awnings, but removing the apples if…if so desired so that wouldn’t be counted. And then the front sign on the front of the building at forty square, forty point ten square feet which in essence comes up to about four hundred and fifty-two square footage of signage minus one hundred foot of allowed leaving a variance needed of three hundred and fifty-two square feet or three hundred and fifty-two percent.

Ms. Drake: Then you would actually subtract out what they were already granted a variance for, right?

Mr. Maher: In essence a…they were already granted a variance for two hundred and thirty three feet so we would be adding an additional hundred and nineteen square footage of…of signage to the original variance…the original two variances.

Mr. Hughes: The applicant understand the adjustment in the numbers and how we arrived at that?

Mr. Bell: Yes.

Mr. Hughes: A little bit better figures, huh?

Mr. Bell: I like your calculations better so with that being said to clarify, apples on…?

Mr. Maher: Well the…you had said you’d remove three of the awnings from one side either or, if you remove just the apples doesn’t make a difference. The question is that three of the awnings, the one in the rear are not depicted now so if they are just straight awnings, that’s fine.

Mr. Bell: Right. They’ll just be yellow awnings.

Mr. Maher: Three on whatever side you chose, ultimately three awnings will have to disappear or just the logo be taken off them. Ultimately you can keep all awnings up, you know, as far as that goes as far as the straight color goes.

38

Mr. Bell: Yes.

Mr. Maher: Or your swish or if you want to clarify that.

Mr. Bell: Don’t say Nike though.

Mr. Maher: But in essence though, it ultimately so long as when you’re…when you’re done your signage doesn’t exceed four hundred and fifty-two square feet overall (inaudible).

Mr. Hughes: What we’ve found in our research here is those awnings were never addressed as part of signage from the beginning of the building until now. We don’t know why but taking that into consideration we made adjustments and Mr. Maher did the figures.

Mr. Donovan: And…and just for clarification, and to make sure I didn’t miss it Mike, we talked about using subparagraph two under the sign area definition and for the awnings that have apple on them, where the apple will remain we’re just calculating the apple itself as part of the sign calculation…

Mr. Maher: Following number two basically creating a square or rectangle around that apple and calculating that square footage for the sign area.


Mr. Maher: And just a note, a…we didn’t include any signs that are below two by two square foot, correct Joe?


Mr. Maher: So none of those were, so those were okay and those weren’t in the calculations at all.

Mr. Hughes: So now that we have a better inventory can somebody tee up the conditions on…Counsel?

Mr. Donovan: Well I…I think Mike’s…Mike’s gone through them.

Mr. Maher: Do you want to repeat that?

Mr. Donovan: Backwards, actually. But I think so the magnitude of the variance is three hundred and fifty-two percent?

Mr. Maher: A…yes, overall or an additional hundred and nineteen square foot current square footage of signage.

39

Mr. Donovan: Okay, is that clear to everybody?

Chairperson Cardone: Yes.

Mr. Donovan: I mean it will be reduced to writing obviously at a future date. But if someone is inclined then they could make the a…resolution with those…move to approve the variance with those conditions.

Mr. Maher: So moved, I'll make a motion to approve as a discussed.

Ms. Drake: I'll second it.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes


Mr. Bell: Thank you.


ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



40


BENJAMIN KILPATRICK 99 MOUNTAIN VIEW AVENUE, NBGH(14-1-149) R/R ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area variance for increasing the degree of non-conformity (front yard setback) to build a second floor addition.

Chairperson Cardone: Our next applicant Benjamin Kilpatrick.

Ms. Gennarelli: This applicant sent out ten registered letters, eight were returned. All the mailings and publications are in order.

Chairperson Cardone: State your name for the record.

Mr. Kilpatrick: Hello, my name is Benjamin Kilpatrick. I live at 99 Mountain View Avenue in Newburgh. I’d like to do a second story addition on the back half of my house, a bedroom and a bathroom. A…it says here that the new addition will be located forty-three feet from the property line and the variance is required for increasing the degree of non-conformity of the existing house. It has to be setback fifty feet again the second story addition is going to be on the back half of the house. It’s a bedroom and a bathroom. I have small children. I’d like them to all be upstairs and I’m eliminating a bedroom downstairs which is already a playroom and moving them upstairs.

Mr. Hughes: At the end of your project how many more bedrooms are you going to have?

Mr. Kilpatrick: It will be the same number of bedrooms as when I bought the house.

Mr. Hughes: Are you on a septic system where you are?

Mr. Kilpatrick: Septic system, yes.

Mr. Hughes: And you’re on a well?

Mr. Kilpatrick: Yes.

Ms. Drake: How many bedrooms do you have now?

Mr. Kilpatrick: Four. Two upstairs and two downstairs.

Ms. Drake: And what did you have when you bought the house?

Mr. Kilpatrick: Four.

Ms. Drake: Oh, okay, the way you said it it made it sound like it was different than when you bought the house.

41

Mr. Kilpatrick: Oh no, I bought the house as a four bedroom. We’re using the two bedrooms upstairs, downstairs we have a guest room and a playroom and we just had another child last week…

Ms. Drake: Congratulations.

Mr. Kilpatrick: Thank you. And I’d like all the children to be upstairs with us.

Ms. Drake: So you’ll have four upstairs?

Mr. Kilpatrick: There will be three bedrooms upstairs then and a bathroom.

Ms. Drake: (Inaudible)

Mr. Kilpatrick: Correct and one downstairs.

Mr. Donovan: And so when they get older you’ll move into the guest room downstairs?

Mr. Kilpatrick: We’ll move into the basement.

Mr. Maher: Don’t say that.

Mr. Hughes: If you’re smart you’ll look for another county. They only get more expensive as they get older there is no reduction in them.

Mr. Kilpatrick: I’m sure.

Mr. Maher: Houses or kids?

Mr. Hughes: Both.

Chairperson Cardone: Well the issue is the front yard setback and they’re not going any closer to the front than it is currently.

Mr. Hughes: Did you see a number that they gave to the overage? I don’t have it.

Mr. Maher: (Inaudible)

Mr. Hughes: So it’s because he’s going up.

Chairperson Cardone: Do we have any other questions from the Board? Do we have any questions or comments from the public?


42

Mr. Maher: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes


Mr. Kilpatrick: Thank you.

Ms. Drake: Excuse me, we may make a vote tonight or later so…

Ms. Gennarelli: They just closed the Public Hearing at this point.

Ms. Drake: I didn’t want you to leave thinking we were done.

Mr. Kilpatrick: Oh no, I didn’t. Thank you very much.


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BENJAMIN KILPATRICK 99 MOUNTAIN VIEW AVENUE, NBGH(14-1-149) R/R ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area variance for increasing the degree of non-conformity (front yard setback).

Chairperson Cardone: On the next application Benjamin Kilpatrick, 99 Mountain View Avenue, seeking an area variance for increasing the degree of non-conformity of the front yard setback to build a second floor addition. This is a Type II Action under SEQRA. Do we have discussion on this application?

43

Ms. Drake: Being he is not actually changing the actual front yardage from what’s existing and building into the rear of the house instead of the front of the house I don’t see where he’s a…causing…effecting the neighborhood or anything like that. I'll make a motion to approve the application.

Mr. McKelvey: I'll second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes



ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



44


ANTHONY & DONNA CORRADO 356 FROZEN RIDGE ROAD, NBGH(6-1-64) A / R ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area an accessory building closer to the fronting street than the main building to build an accessory building (shed).

Chairperson Cardone: The next applicant Anthony and Donna Corrado.

Ms. Gennarelli: This applicant sent out fifteen registered letters, fifteen were returned. All the mailings and publications are in order.

Ms. Corrado: Hi I’m Donna Corrado and we’re here for a shed in our backyard but I think technically it’s our front yard, 356 Frozen Ridge.

Mr. McKelvey: We traveled the hill.

Chairperson Cardone: Yes, that’s quite a hill.

Ms. Corrado: Did you walk it?

Chairperson Cardone: No, no.

Mr. McKelvey: We drove up.

Ms. Corrado: Oh, okay.

Chairperson Cardone: It must be fun in the wintertime.

Ms. Corrado: I don’t…I work out of my house so that’s my husband’s, he has to handle the driveway, yeah, we’re far up.

Chairperson Cardone: Really. I have the report from the Orange County Department of Planning which is Local Determination.

Mr. Hughes: So basically they called you in because you have two front yards so to speak. Is that what the deal is?

Ms. Corrado: I think the shed is where our driveway is on Frozen Ridge but we’re not pointing that way but Frozen Ridge is considered our front yard.

Mr. Hughes: Your house faces ninety degrees from there…

Ms. Corrado: Yes sir.

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Mr. Hughes: Okay, and so because it’s that way the building is in front of the front of your main dwelling?

Ms. Corrado: It’s closer to Frozen Ridge.

Mr. Hughes: Okay.

Ms. Corrado: In the backyard.

Mr. Hughes: So it’s not two front yards its because the building is in front of your house?

Ms. Corrado: Yes.

Mr. Hughes: I see.

Mr. McKelvey: But the shed is going to be in the backyard?

Mr. Maher: Of the house, it’s in the front yard.

Ms. Corrado: In my backyard, yes.

Chairperson Cardone: Which is actually the front yard.

Ms. Corrado: I think from the map it’s a front yard yes.

Mr. Hughes: What do you have about seven acres there in all?

Ms. Corrado: A little over seven.

Mr. Hughes: So you’ve got a really good spot and basically there’s nobody around it.


Mr. McKelvey: Nobody is going to see the shed.

Ms. Corrado: No. Chairperson Cardone: Do we have any questions or comments from the public?

Mr. McKelvey: I’ll make a motion to close the Hearing.

Ms. Drake: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

46

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes


Ms. Corrado: Thank you.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ANTHONY & DONNA CORRADO 356 FROZEN RIDGE ROAD, NBGH(6-1-64) A / R ZONE

Applicant is seeking an area an accessory building closer to the fronting street than the main building to build an accessory building (shed).

Chairperson Cardone: On the next application of Anthony and Donna Corrado, 356 Frozen Ridge Road, seeking an area an accessory building closer to the fronting street than the main building to build an accessory building (shed). This is a Type II Action under SEQRA. Do we have discussion on this application?

Mr. McKelvey: I think she is far enough that nobody is going to see it.

Mr. Hughes: I'll move it.

Ms. Drake: Second.


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John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes


Ms. Corrado: Thank you.


ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



48


GAS DEVELOPMENT LEASE LLC 1413 ROUTE 300, NBGH(60-3-40.2) I B ZONE

Applicant is seeking area variances for a gasoline station to be constructed within 1000-feet of another existing gasoline station and the 200-foot required separation to a place of public assembly and the maximum amount of allowed signage to build a gasoline station, tire service business and a bank.

Chairperson Cardone: Our next applicant Gas Development Lease LLC. this is held open from the May 24th meeting.

Mr. Onderko: Good evening, for the record Tim Onderko, professional engineer with Langan Engineering & Environmental Services. A… we were here last month to talk about the redevelopment of 1413 Union Avenue and left the Hearing open because we wanted to take all the things that we talked about with regard to traffic and the analysis that we had done, put it on paper and let you have a copy of that. So two weeks a go or so we submitted the…the written summary of the traffic findings as well as the back to kind of close up the topic of traffic that we discussed last time. We have no changes to the plan, no new developments, no modifications to signage a…and we’re a hoping to just close out any traffic questions you may have.

Chairperson Cardone: Okay, do we have anything from the Board?

Mr. Hughes: There was one note that was struck and there was a question rather than a statement about eligibility for that two hundred foot offset you are supposed to be away from a place of public assembly and the answer I got really didn’t add up to those numbers. The lot next door is the oil change place and then there’s Wendy’s further north on that same highway from there.

Mr. Onderko: Valvoline, Wendy’s, yes.

Mr. Hughes: After I received, I forgot who it was said that the gas pumps were more than two hundred feet away but it is my understanding its parcel to parcel not where the actual…

Ms. Gennarelli: Ron, Ron, could you just pull that mic in further?

Mr. Hughes: I’m sorry.

Mr. Hughes: For some reason I think it was Mr. Wolinsky I was speaking with with that.

Mr. Cappello: Larry was here last month.

Mr. Hughes: Okay, you threw me sitting there because it didn’t add up.

49

Mr. Cappello: And he’s a lot better looking than me too.

Mr. Hughes: And lost a lot of weight too how did he do that?

Mr. Donovan: Do you want to get to the microphone John for that so you can get it in the record?

Mr. Hughes: And then there was a discussion about a fifty foot right of way in the back which became a moot point when we realized the complications to it.

Mr. Onderko: The fifty foot right of way is still in play. It is still something we are pursuing. A…there are Army Corp regulated wetlands that we would have to cross.

Mr. Hughes: That whole thing is a swamp.

Mr. Onderko: Yes, so we’re…we’re working with the soil scientists who did the delineation and the Army Corp to see if that is something we can secure and I believe we also talked about last if that doesn’t work do we have another place for the easement and at this point trying to…to make that work because of the complications associated with all the tenancies and leases of the mall. The fact that we have one today is what we want to pursue and continue to pursue a… the facts of the two hundred foot question.

Mr. Hughes: The Valvoline lot is only a hundred and forty-five feet wide.

Mr. Onderko: Yes.

Mr. Hughes: So as a place of public assembly is it more than two hundred feet from your project so my question was more than direction and I don’t know. Counsel, can you tell me what the…?

Mr. Donovan: Well I think what we talked about last time a…and the referral from the Planning Board was two hundred feet from a public assembly if required. And the applicant when they were asked last month, do you need that variance, their answer was no. So I instructed this Board to rule on the application in front of you. I understand you want to make sure you are ruling on a complete application but I think that they’ve evaluated that and they’ve determined that, at least in their view, they don’t need it. So we have an application seeking only two variances, the thousand foot restriction relative to gas stations and the sign variance. That’s…that’s what they’ve applied. How they reached the determination I don’t recall. I recall their answer that they believe didn’t need the variance and that’s why they didn’t ask for it.

Mr. Hughes: Okay.

Mr. Onderko: I believe our interpretation was that it was not lot line to lot line. It was actually from the pumps them self to the place of public assembly.

50

Mr. Hughes: I recall that’s what you told us.

Mr. Onderko: Yes, that…that was our…

Mr. Hughes: I don’t know if that’s what the law says.

Mr. Onderko: …interpretation.

(Mr. Cappello Inaudible)

Ms. Drake: You need the microphone.

Ms. Gennarelli: Excuse me.

Mr. Cappello: …on the five hundred foot it is lot to lot that’s why we’re here but I believe the place of public assembly and I’ll look it up right now I believe that was from...

Mr. Donovan: Yes, if I…I have it. So if you look at 185-28-F and that reads as follows: No building permit shall be issued for any such establishment within a distance of two hundred feet of any school of general education, church, hospital or other place of public assembly designed for occupancy of more than fifty persons, said distance to be measured in a straight between the nearest point of the fuel pump island or storage tank and the public assembly structure, regardless of the district where either facility is located. And I should point that this talks about motor vehicle service stations, car washes and rental agencies.

Mr. Hughes: Okay. I think we had some other things that needed to be cleared up as well besides those.

Mr. Onderko: Okay, I don’t know if they were…was it…was it related to traffic or I…I think we had…we had talked about the…the signage percentage and kind of how we came to our number and…and that was, we know that via the Code we cannot argue that we have three frontages. We’re…we’re only allowed to take the frontage along Route 300 but in reality our lot does have more than one frontage just due to the mall ring road. So we used those lengths to establish a baseline number that we thought in theory if…if we were surrounded by three streets what would the number be? And we backed off of that. I think if we were able to argue all three sides we’d be allowed five hundred feet and thirty four square feet of signage and we’re proposing five hundred and twenty and that includes both sides of the pylon sign. So a…so that was how we came to that number and I believe that works out to a percentage a…that you were just talking with the previous application of around three-hundred and fifty percent is the number we came a...the one forty-four permitted and the five twenty that we are requesting.

51

Mr. Cappello: (Inaudible) …and that we added that if because we are similar to a corner lot if we counted the drive that splits this property from the Mall if that counted as frontage we meet the a…requirements.

Mr. Hughes: Are you referring to the south side, John?

Mr. Cappello: Yes.

Chairperson Cardone: Do we have any questions or comments from the public?

Ms. Drake: I actually have a question on the signage, based on the interpretation that we had from Code Compliance for the previous application of the whole awning considered the sign. I don’t have a calculation from Code Compliance on what they would say the signs are for this facility but based on what is shown for the Stop and Shop and the information provided, the applicant said it was eighty-five square foot signage for the Stop and Shop which would be just the symbol and a lot words so that’s not consistent with the previous application that we’re looking at. So would this sign variance need to include the whole strip all the way around?

Mr. Hughes: Are you referring to the ribbon on the…?

Mr. McKelvey: The ribbon, yeah.

Mr. Mattina: Right, normally with the definition of signage, artwork, representation, it goes on and on so I…usually with gas stations, Valero and places like that we’ve counted the color and the emblems and the letters…

Ms. Drake: So that would be all four sides would need to be included, not just he eighty-five square foot that…for the Stop and Shop?

Mr. Mattina: If it has four sides I… This is the first time I’m seeing this so I’m just giving you general answers here.

Ms. Drake: Yeah.

Mr. Maher: Well if that’s the case, then you’re looking a hundred and thirty feet give or take times, you know, three and a half feet. So in essence you’re looking at, you know, four hundred and fifty.

Mr. Hughes: Four-fifty.

Mr. Maher: According to that calculation per side.

Ms. Drake: Yeah, it goes all the way around.

Mr. McKelvey: All the way around.

52

Mr. Onderko: Yeah, it would be…it would be the two sides and if…I…I think that number would be astronomical if we included the entire fascia so I would live with we’ll lose the strip if that was the…a…a…interpretation.

Mr. Maher: Well…and I understand that but I don’t necessarily know that to be the case but to be consistent in what we do going forward it needs to be, you know, addressed.

Mr. Hughes: What if you were to move the Stop and Shop sign out and just have the strip for the first twenty feet or whatever on either one of those sides, north and south? The building on both sides are going to block it from being down in the middle anyway, you’re not going to see that from the road.

Mr. Maher: Do you have a page here Joe?

Mr. Mattina: In a definition for a sign we get into sign area. If they would lose that strip then technically use number one which said, you know, painted frame area…

Mr. Maher: Which...which page are you on? Sorry.

Mr. Mattina: Oh, sorry…

Mr. Donovan: 185-16.

Mr. Mattina: Right under sign area.

Mr. Donovan: In the definitions.

Mr. Mattina: Sign tells us what we’re looking for, sign area; if they lose that strip I think we would be okay sign area wise.

Mr. Hughes: So suppose you put the Stop and Shop out on the nose of that thing out by 300 and eliminate the stripes then you don’t have to calculate the thing.

Mr. Mattina: I would just count the Stop and Shop and artwork.

Mr. Hughes: Okay so then you might end up with another forty-eight feet with both of those on either side.

Mr. Mattina: Yeah.

Mr. Hughes: So we don’t get into the astronomical numbers.

Mr. Onderko: Say that again, you would…so on the long sides you would take Stop and Shop off the long sides and put it on the short side on Route 300?

53

Mr. Hughes: No, put it…put it on the long sides north and south.

Mr. Onderko: That’s where this is.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah?

Mr. Onderko: Yeah.

Mr. Hughes: (making a noise)

Mr. Onderko: Oh, sliding, you’re saying sliding closer.

Mr. Hughes: (Inaudible)

Mr. Onderko: Un…Un-center it… (Inaudible)

Mr. Donovan: If you eliminated…I’m sorry, Mike?

Mr. Maher: I’m just not comfortable having all businesses lose their…some of the logo because of an interpretation needed to clarify it in the Code. I think we need to address it, you know, consistently of course, but by the same token if in fact there is eighty-five foot of signage there and in some manner this allows us to configure it as four hundred square feet we need to…we need to fix that.

Mr. Cappello: (Inaudible) …it’s…I think it could cause you a problem. What if I was an independent operator who had no affiliation with Stop and Shop or anything and my name was John’s Gas Station and I decided I wanted to paint my one and only canopy purple which was in your reg’s with a…with a gold stripe because I like the Los Angeles Lakers and that was the color I wanted to paint my canopy and it was my first one, then I could do it…

Mr. Maher: In…

Mr. Cappello: …but because Stop and Shop has that stri…a brown stripe, I mean I could see if it’s a logo but a brown…

Mr. Maher: In essence…

Mr. Cappello: …stripe to say that’s the color we’d like to paint our canopies…

Mr. Maher: Right, in…in essence the way the law is written right now if that was your first gas station, yes, you could do it with no problem at all. If you build a second one you’re associated with that color you can’t do it. That’s why I say it…it doesn’t make sense whatsoever. Not in this application nor the previous one.

Mr. Mattina: That’s why I’m here all the time.

54

Chairperson Cardone: That’s right.

Mr. Maher: And I understand you’re just following what’s written but…

Mr. Mattina: Right.

Mr. Maher: …it’s just…it’s frustrating to…to see this, you know, repetitive, you know, issue come up and have to…

Mr. Hughes: Are you…are you suggesting its legislative? That it needs to be refined?

Mr. Maher: One hundred percent.

Mr. Hughes: Okay then well let’s do that. I and I agree with you because there’s a lot of this stuff, they take four or five books and slam then together and hope that it covers everything. There’s a lot of stuff in here that’s…

Mr. Mattina: While you’re at it the floor area…

Mr. Maher: So, so…

Chairperson Cardone: There are a couple of other issues too.

Ms. Drake: But when drive around and you look at the different restaurants they either have the words or a striped awning.

Mr. Hughes: Or their colors.

Ms. Drake: Or their colors but they don’t have both so therefore it…so far things have been consistent.

Mr. Maher: I mean, in essence, the STS if in fact red and white is their color, technically speaking that entire around the…the color of red around the perimeter is…is technically a sign it does…

Mr. Mattina: If I was to…if I was to review this I would send it for red, the STS, I would send it for the stripe, I would send it for you know two thousand percent over…

Mr. Maher: Right but the only problem I have then is, then it appears it’s a gross over a…over…overage on the percentages when in fact it…it really isn’t and that’s the issue ultimately.

Mr. McKelvey: And actually…actually the colors make it look better.

55

Mr. Onderko: Under the definition of sign what would the…the purple pinstripe fall under to classify it as a sign?

Mr. Mattina: (Inaudible)

Ms. Gennarelli: Can you just give Joe that microphone please?

Mr. Onderko: I’m sorry.

Ms. Gennarelli: Thank you.

Mr. Mattina: Yeah, basically the sign definition is words, letters, models, representations, devices in which any, in the nature of any advertisement, attraction or directive so that’s pretty broad.

Mr. Hughes: Well, for example you’re driving down the road and you see orange and pink and white, Dunkin Donuts, before you get to read the letters. Has this had that same kind of impression nationwide? I don’t think so. So, you know, I agree with Mr. Mahers it’s a legislative issue that needs to addressed.

Mr. Onderko: So…so…so but in…so with that interpretation I could take off the fruit basket and the Stop and Shop and just the canopy, paint the canopy its considered a sign which I don’t think was the…the intent of the…

Ms. Drake: No because then its just a stripe…then its just a striped awning it doesn’t have the lettering and the logo so therefore I’m interpreting that that isn’t a sign.

Mr. Mattina: Right, usually, usually the lettering, the emblem, the…the logo sets off the color coordination and the striping…

Mr. Hughes: It’s in the cluster.

Mr. Mattina: Correct, it’s in the theme of the letters, the artwork, the logos.

Ms. Drake: So if the stripe was black and not the same color as the lettering…I’m just using examples. I don’t know.

Mr. Mattina: If it’s all incorporated in the same thing I would still count it.

Ms. Gennarelli: Joe, take that mic please.

Mr. Mattina: If there was no logo, no Stop and Shop, it was just a grey and purple canopy that doesn’t represent anything to me. Once you start lettering, you start adding artwork and logo and designs everything counts.

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Ms. Drake: So just because under the STS there’s red paint, a red tile, a red block under that that’s becoming part of the logo.

Mr. Mattina: Correct. If the red was the same facade color as the rest of the building and the letters where white or red then no but the red is used to highlight the letters.

Ms. Drake: And if you want to use the other microphone you then have two over there.

Ms. Gennarelli: We do have a second one.

Mr. Mattina: Right, the red banner is used to highlight the white STS letters so its part of that advertisement display.

Ms. Drake: So therefore the variance request we received for this is significantly larger in signage then?

Mr. Cappello: Is that consistent with what the Board? I mean you have Lowe’s and Home Depot and I don’t recall ever having to get a variance for the blue a…Lowe’s and I have received variance for Lowe’s signs and for the…whatever the color is with Home Depot. We received a sign for that and for Kohl’s and for Pet Smart and for, you know, for quite other chains that have…

Mr. Donovan: But were they all facade signs, John?

Mr. Cappello: Yeah, yeah, they were for all of those shopping centers and I think with the way we calculated them was that the color of the…the…if the awning had a logo on it but if it was just the corporate color…blue for Lowe’s, and you know, orange I think for Home Depot and I think blue and red for Pet Smart it was really just the lettering it wasn’t the background color…

Mr. Donovan: And have those variances…

Mr. Cappella: …and like there is a red in STS

Mr. Donovan: Have those variances come from this Board?

Mr. Cappella: Yes, yes.

Mr. Donovan: I mean in my experience here is what we’ve done is if you say you need in this…this circumstance three-hundred and fifty percent, if you need five hundred and twenty square feet we have approved that. I…I don’t know that we’ve necessarily gone through and calculated and had the conversation, you know, red background and STS and we’re going to add that in. We…we’ve granted what’s been asked for and then you’ve gone on your way to the Code Compliance Department and got your Permit.

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Mr. Cappello: Yeah, but I think if you look at all of them if you’re going down that road, you’ve got Barnes and Nobles, I don’t think they had to go for a variance because their background color of their you know shingles is a certain color and Starbuck’s and…

(Inaudible)

Mr. Maher: But if you take into account the Enterprise end of it, again because of the fact that Enterprise had a couple of Enterprises on the building we could do the entire awning which again, I don’t think is the correct thing to do unfortunately but you know, I…I…I mean on page 185-16-10.1 it…it…the total sign area shall be considered to be the area of the smallest basic geometric shape rectangular, circle or triangle which encompasses or symbols of the sign. So I…I…I’m not sure if we’re splitting this or…or, I understand we err on the side of caution, I…I understand that part of, I just don’t know that we’re, in essence, doing the right thing.

Mr. Hughes: One of…one of the things that’s happened here historically with Lowe’s and maybe that’s why its not so specifically clear here, not just Lowe’s but a lot of these big…Target and so on, the sign is on an other lot, the building is on another lot, there’s reciprocities and parking and all kinds of stuff going on so what we try to recommend to the Planning Board is when they’re putting one of these corners together to outline the pylons to have so many tenants and so much space so they don’t end up back here every six months. So maybe that’s why some of these things we haven’t ruled on and…

Chairperson Cardone: Well I think there is another issue, when its sent to us from the Planning Board I don’t think Joe then, you take a look at it at that point so…

Mr. Mattina: No I don’t review anything from the Planning Board.

Chairperson Cardone: So…right…so when it comes to us we’re…we’re dealing with what the Planning Board sent to us and Joe hasn’t necessarily seen that and figured out by his calculations…

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, it’s (inaudible)

Chairperson Cardone: And I think that’s what…I think that’s what the issue is.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Mr. McKelvey: Yeah.

Mr. Cappello: I mean I can understand somewhat the canopy but I mean I’m just say…the red awning, I mean there has to be some color and I think if we went to architectural review at the Planning Board and we made that awning the same color as the building you know, beige with beige block they would tell us to break, you know, break up the color so, you know, so I don’t…I can’t it…it…it’s really stretching it to say that you know, this is signage. It’s a red, you know, architectural feature…

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Mr. Hughes: Well just for an example John, what if somebody took the STS letters and just put a white stripe around there and made the limit of the sign to that and the red building, what could they say then? You know, we’re looking…we’re looking for ways to improve the position of the applicant here.

Mr. Donovan: Well can we go back to the definition for a second? And I’m saying the definition of sign area, it includes all faces of a sign measured as follows: you have two choices, choice number one, which such a sign is on a plate or framed or outlined all of the area of such plate or the area enclosed by such frame or outline shall be included. So do we, on the STS example, do we take that red to be a frame or an outline? Because number two is when such sign consists only of letters, designs or figures engraved, painted or projected or any manner affixed to a wall the total area of such sign shall considered to be that area of the smallest basic geometric shape, rectangle, circle or triangle which encompasses all of the letters or symbols of the sign.

Mr. Maher: So in essence then what was provided to us by the applicant this depicts number two?

Mr. Cappella: Correct.

Mr. Maher: The way in which he has calculated the square footage.

Mr. Donovan: I…I would think so Mike, based upon that definition unless anyone else seems…would think that that red background constitutes a plate or a frame or an outline.

Mr. Hughes: That’s the color of the building in that part of the building.

Mr. Onderko: And…and along that same line with the box, for instance on the…the pylon sign I…I could make an argument that the sign area is a box around the word tenant but because I don’t know how much space they are going fill up I’ve taken the full box…I’ve taken definition A for a sign area. So I…I used B for the box, because we don’t have a box around the building signs and used the box definition where we do have a box with a panel for the pylon.

Mr. McKelvey: Because where that red is that could be any color with letters on it to make the letters stand out.

Mr. Hughes: Or you could paint a white stripe around it and reduce it down to that, I mean it’s...or we could go to the far end of the extreme and go to Hess in Fishkill where the corporate logo didn’t mean anything and they made them do the whole thing in stone. So what do you do then? If you ask fifteen Board Members you get thirty-two answers. When you walk through the door here something is illegal and we’re here to try to purge it. That’s what makes it such a difficult fit. I have nothing else.

Chairperson Cardone: Okay, does anyone else have any…?

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Mr. Cappella: And I just, historically, I’m just…if you take that Lowe’s the blue that they have on Lowe’s and you call all that blue which is behind every L-O-W-E-S the variances that they would have needed to put their sign on the Lowe’s would have been into the ten thousands of a…

Mr. Maher: Right.

Mr. Cappella: …percent probably cause the...

Mr. Maher: But if Joe didn’t review it wouldn’t have been noted in the same calcs that he would use here be used there, that’s the only…

Mr. McKelvey: That was…that was all done by the Planning Board.

Mr. Hughes: Yeah, and if the Planning Board had it in their future site that they were going to determine that before and the tenant or the applicant said yes we’ll live with that you might not end up over here for ten years until something else goes on. A lot of crazy stuff goes on with that signage.


Mr. Hughes: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes


Mr. Onderko: Thank you.

Mr. Cappella: Thank you.

Chairperson Cardone: Before proceeding the Board will take a short adjournment to confer with Counsel regarding legal questions that have been raised by tonight’s applications… oh Joe has some figures for us.

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Mr. Mattina: Yes, I have the Applebee’s figures, in 1997 they requested a two hundred and nine-seven square foot sign variance and a thirty-six square foot sign in 1994 ( March 2005) so altogether they have received two hundred and thirty-two point seven-five square foot in variances.

Ms. Drake: What was the one in ‘97 Joe?

Mr. Mattina: In ‘97 they asked for two hundred and ninety-seven square feet and they were allowed a hundred so that would be a hundred and ninety seven.

Mr. Hughes: And they added thirty-six?

Mr. Mattina: They added thirty-six more, March of ‘05 for a total of two hundred and thirty two point seven-five square foot of variances they’ve received already.

Mr. Hughes: Okay, so they had three hundred and thirty-three before this proceeding?


Mr. Donovan: I’m sorry; three hundred and thirty-three was what they were?

Mr. Hughes: Yeah.

Mr. Mattina: Three hundred and thirty-three, yes.

Mr. Hughes: Two ninety-seven and thirty-six unless I added that wrong.

Mr. Mattina: If you subtract from my calculations, my calculation, now they would need six thirty-nine minus the three thirty-three. So we went for eight seventy-one to six thirty-nine.

Mr. Hughes: That’s Chinese arithmetic.

(Inaudible)

Chairperson Cardone: I think that we can when we a…when we’re discussing these we can bring all of this in and right now the Public Hearing is closed but I can still get that information from you later.

Mr. Mattina: Okay.

Chairperson Cardone: And right at this time, I’d like to short adjournment to confer with Counsel and I’d ask if could wait out into the hallway and we’ll call you in shortly.


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GAS DEVELOPMENT LEASE LLC 1413 ROUTE 300, NBGH(60-3-40.2) I B ZONE

Applicant is seeking area variances for a gasoline station to be constructed within 1000-feet of another existing gasoline station and the 200-foot required separation to a place of public assembly and the maximum amount of allowed signage to build a gasoline station, tire service business and a bank.

Chairperson Cardone: On the first application Gas Development Lease LLC, 1413 Route 300, seeking area variances for a gasoline station to be constructed within 1000-feet of another existing gasoline station and the 200-foot required separation to a place of public assembly and the maximum amount of allowed signage to build a gasoline station, tire service business and a bank. This is an Unlisted Action under SEQRA. Do I have a motion for a Negative Declaration?

Ms. Drake: So moved.

Mr. McKelvey: Second.


John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes

Chairperson Cardone: Do we have discussion on this application?

Mr. Hughes: I think we’ve cleared up who is on first and all of that. There were a lot of things surrounding the applicant’s sign proposals but I think we’ve got it whittled down now.

Chairperson Cardone: The two hundred foot required separation, was it not agreed that they did not need that variance? That was my understanding.

Mr. Hughes: It was measured from the pumps. The law says it was measured from the pumps and they have an adequate distance.


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Mr. Donovan: Do we have clarity on the total square footage of signage variance?

Chairperson Cardone: No we don’t.

Ms. Drake: (Inaudible)

Mr. Hughes: According to who?

Ms. Drake: They calculated it. It appears in their application. We didn’t get a sheet.

Mr. Donovan: So then…then so…at the five twenty square feet that would not include the Stop and Stop stripe, would not include the SDS red a…

Mr. Maher: Backdrop.

Mr. Donovan: …awning, backdrop. Thanks Mike, I knew there was a technical term for that.

Mr. Onderko: Correct. It would only be for the boxes around the logo, the actual lettering and the logo that would stand proud of the building face and canopy.

Mr. Donovan: And the Board is as in the prior application deeming this to fall within the definition of sign area, subparagraph two and that we’re only counting the geometric shapes.


Mr. Hughes: A square, triangle or circle that could be put around that particular…


Mr. Donovan: And those total five hundred and twenty square feet.

Mr. Onderko: Correct.

Mr. Donovan: Okay.

Chairperson Cardone: Any further discussion on this application?

Mr. Hughes: I’ll move it forward.

Ms. Drake: Second.


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John McKelvey: Yes

Brenda Drake: Yes

Ronald Hughes: Yes

Michael Maher: Yes

Grace Cardone: Yes



ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



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ZBA MEETING – JUNE 28, 2012

END OF MEETING (Time Noted – 9:03 PM)

Chairperson Cardone: There are a number of other things that we should discuss. First of all, the minutes from the May meeting?

Chairperson Cardone: Do I have a motion to approve those minutes?

Mr. Maher: So moved.

Mr. Hughes: Second.

Chairperson Cardone: All those in favor say Aye?

Aye - All

Chairperson Cardone: Opposed?

No response.

Chairperson Cardone: The minutes from the June 12th Special Meeting? Do we have a motion to approve those minutes?

Ms. Drake: I’ll make a motion to approve them.

Mr. Hughes: Second.

Chairperson Cardone: All those in favor say Aye?

Aye - All


No response.

Chairperson Cardone: Everyone has received a copy of the Local Laws that are being proposed by the Town Board. The first one and they would like our input on that. Do we have any input on the Marina Townhome accessory use? I didn’t have any input on that, I don’t know if anybody else does? We’ll do the easy one first.

No response.

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Chairperson Cardone: Okay, the next one was the Home Occupation. I just have a question for…I have some questions on that. Not so much a comment but questions. If we look at B on page 2, it is accordingly appropriate that the Zoning Board of Appeals require as a condition of the granting of all Home Occupations Special Permits that the Permit be for a finite time period and subject to application by the applicant at stated interval for renewal following review and hearing by the Zoning Board of Appeals. Who is right?

Ms. Drake: That means every home business needs to come back to us who is going to a…?

Chairperson Cardone: And each one we would have to determine how long that period of time would be.

Mr. Hughes: Who has the crystal ball for that?

Mr. McKelvey: And who is going to send them to us?

Ms. Drake: Right.

Mr. Maher: Joe has got extra work to do.

Mr. McKelvey: You are going to be busy Joe.

Chairperson Cardone: That was my first and then on the a…on page, I guess its page three, under I, delivering pick up of material or commodities to and from the residential premises of a Home Occupation should be…not exceed twenty trips per week. If you’re going by…and I know UPS only delivers Monday through Friday that would be four trips a day from UPS?

Mr. Hughes: Or for purveyors of some sort, yes. Whoever it is its going to be four.

Chairperson Cardone: Doesn’t that seem like an awful lot?

Mr. Hughes: It is excessive.

Ms. Drake: Yes.

Mr. Maher: What if it was tractor-trailers?

Chairperson Cardone: Right. So you’re talking about four a day, tractor-trailers coming in or whatever is coming in?

Mr. Hughes: And most of all of the companies are going to tractor-trailers now, they’ve eliminated their straight box trucks because they’ll make a longer route and have the guy do it three days a week instead of five now. They’re looking to cut fuels.

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Ms. Drake: So even if you were to change that to twenty that’s two deliveries a day. You know it’s…say you have two different companies coming with supplies…


Ms. Drake: …you know, they’re not going to have to be there every day or just say one a day and you schedule so that they don’t all come on one day or something.

Mr. McKelvey: I was at the meeting and they wanted to make that figure lower.

Chairperson Cardone: And...

Ms. Drake: Well that’s what we’re suggesting too right?

Mr. Hughes: Yes.

Mr. McKelvey: Yes.

Chairperson Cardone: And on the next page under O, and its just…I find that confusing. Maybe…maybe Joe can explain it. No unlawful use of a building or structure or a lot for a Home Occupation existing at the effective date of the Local Law enacting this section shall be deemed to be a non-conforming use.

Mr. Hughes: How do you do that?

Mr. Donovan: I think what that means is that non-conforming uses a…are entitled to protection under law and I think this is trying to say that if...if it’s being unlawfully used…

Chairperson Cardone: Unlawfully used, okay.

Mr. Donovan: …that it…it can’t at the adoption of this it can’t suddenly be sanctioned as a non-conforming use after the adoption of this.

Ms. Drake: Okay so if they are cited…

Chairperson Cardone: And …

Ms. Drake: …for some other violation…(inaudible)

Chairperson Cardone: And then the… and I don’t know what page this is but it says D - The Hearing. This is the Hearing and they have set forth a procedure for this Board to follow. If you look very carefully this page and it tells us all of the factors that we must consider in making this determination.

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Mr. Hughes: I…I…

Chairperson Cardone: It is really quite extensive and you down to F – the depreciation of buildings fixed equipment, fixed structures and other fixed capital improvements used in the non-conforming Home Occupation taken for income tax purposes by the present owner…

Ms. Drake: Even if we were to receive it we probably don’t know how to evaluate that.

Mr. Maher: So we’re to refer to the last five years of tax, income tax just to see what the depreciation was?

Chairperson Cardone: You know it reads…it starts number 4, the Zoning Board of Appeals shall consider the following factors among other things in making its determination and it gives us a list that starts with A and ends with I…

Mr. Hughes: I would really like a little more time because it’s…

The Board then went on into a long discussion over all three of the proposed Local Laws that the Town Board submitted to them for comments. The Board was very concerned with the language and many details of the Local Laws. The Board decided that they needed more time to really read and study the paperwork on the Local Laws and evaluate how they would like to respond to the Town Board’s proposals. They would then submit their comments in writing to Chairperson Cardone and Mr. Donovan would compose the letter to the Town Board.

Chairperson Cardone: Okay do we have anything else? If not do we have a motion to close the meeting?

Mr. Hughes: So moved.

Ms. Drake: Second.

Chairperson Cardone: All in favor say Aye?

Aye All


No response.

Chairperson Cardone: The motion is carried. The meeting is adjourned.

PRESENT ARE: GRACE CARDONEJOHN MC KELVEY

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BRENDA DRAKERONALD HUGHESMICHAEL MAHER

ABSENT:JAMES MANLEY

ALSO PRESENT:



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zoning board of appeals web minutes zba re… · web viewmeeting – june 28, 2012 (time noted...

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