RTB - Petition Wine Bar & Merchant

(BACKGROUND CHATTER)

STUDENT 1:

Welcome, everyone. Thank you for coming. This year we're bringing, 'Raising the bar' to Perth. What is it? It's about ten academics, ten bars, one night. We believe research and innovation shouldn't be restricted in the lab or lecture theatres. We're excited to make an education a part of city's local culture. A popular culture where city's local popular culture through transforming local city bars where you can enjoy a drink while learning about the impact of research that it has into the community. Dr. Kate Offer Teaches Thoughts and Evidence in the law school at UWA and she's a co-author of publication in Western Australian evidence law. Her research focused on evidence, legal education, and education law. She's a current board member and chair for the Disciplinary Committee for the research for the registration, Teacher's Registration Board of Western Australia. Please welcome Kate to the stage. (CROWD APPLAUSES)

DR KATE OFFER:

Thank you. Thank you.

Well this is a bit different from my Monday morning lecture I've got to tell you. Thank you, Lisa, and thank you all for coming. Just to listen to me have a chat about humor in teaching which is something I'm really interested in. So as Lisa said I teach thoughts and evidence. I don't teach contract although with a name like Offer that would be a natural home for me and it's quite coincidental because my maiden name was Acceptance.

Wait, you can't say that on television. So, I am a lawyer as you've heard. So, I teach but I also practice law. Of course, I'm surrounded by future lawyers every day and I'm surrounded by future lawyers, I'm surrounded by lawyers at home as well because I'm actually married to a lawyer.

And we do things like a joint argument and reserve judgment on each other's clothes and things like that but it can get quite romantic I should tell you, and it is our anniversary coming up and I hope you don't mind if I share something a bit special that my husband said to me when he proposed he said I wish to enter into an emotional and financial contract of a type as defined by Section 5 and pursuant to section 42 of the Marriage Act 1961 as amended… Sorry, I'm sorry, I am overcome when I say that… Please advise forthwith as to whether this course of action is acceptable to you and of course I said “Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.”

It was a very special moment. But enough with the humor, I'm obviously here to talk about humor in teaching and why humor is actually such a powerful tool to use in learning. So, I'm talking and my research in this has largely been around or focus certainly on the law or teaching law.

But I think the principles that I've learned or are actually applicable to teaching in any discipline in any sort of whether it's a high school or whether it's tertiary or whether it's primary school and indeed in any sort of presentation where we're sharing our knowledge and how powerful humor is. And I know that at first glance you would think that humor in university teaching is a bit incongruous because university is supposed to be really hard and it's quite green and law school, in particular, can be really intense.

But the evidence shows that actually there's a lot to be gained by incorporating humor into teaching and into as I said sharing information and sharing knowledge. So, I wouldn't be a lawyer unless I started with a definition. So, when we're talking about humor in teaching, what do we mean by humor? Well, essentially it involves communicating and that means of course verbally or nonverbally in a way that elicits a human response and a positive effect. So, that's quite a fluid definition actually. And I suspect it was a lawyer who was charging by the hour who came up with that really loose kinda definition. But in any event, the consensus across the literature seems to be that there is some element of surprise in humor that makes us laugh and some incongruity. And both those themes seemed to underscore humor.

So, when we think about humor, there's all sorts of different types of humor could be wit, it can be silliness, it can be sarcasm, it can be satire, puns, love a pun, law's very well, very well suited to puns, slapstick. I don't know how many times I've thrown a banana skin in front of myself as I've walked into a lecture. It always gets a laugh.

I planted those two here in case you wondered. It could be just simply telling a joke.

Often, we think of humour as something that elicits laughter but it doesn't necessarily have to elicit laughter to be humor. And of course, sarcasm is a really good example of that. Generally, people don't laugh in response to sarcasm, but it's still considered to be humor.

Before I move on to talk about humor in teaching I should point out that what I'm talking about is generally positive humor and having mentioned sarcasm that's a really good example of negative humor.

So, generally speaking, anything I think the qualifier and I'll get to qualifiers later, but qualifiers are that generally speaking it's positive humor that is what I'm talking about when I'm saying that positive humor is a good thing in education. Negative humor doesn't generally have a place and so sarcasm is one of those things. Anything that sort of racially or sexually divisive should not be used in humor at all.

It's got no and it certainly got no place in the classroom and I argued nowhere really in a public place. Those sort of humor can destroy trust and it can damage the relationships. And it's exactly what I'm saying that humor in teaching can do that it can create good relationships that can facilitate social cohesion. And so you don't want to do anything to undermine that. Yes, so all future references I make to humor actually, I'm talking about positive humor.

So, the question I guess I'm posing and I hope to answer, spoiler alert, I will be saying it does improve learning. Is that that humor can improve learning. Now the studies actually have mixed results in terms of whether humor can actually improve learning. And before I talk about a bit of the background to some of those studies, I'll give a bit of the theoretical background.

This might be Tom and everyone goes away but a bit of theory. You're funny aren't you? Laughing at everything I say. No more drinks for this lady. Thank you very much.

So, there are three main theories. Firstly the instructional humor processing theory. And so that theory posits that learning happens when students see an incongruity in a humorous instructional

message, which they then resolve. And so what that does is it facilitates that resolution so there's an inherent conflict there that students need to resolve.

And by resolving that it assist them in processing the material at a deeper level. Now a qualification on that is that it has to be appropriate humor and it has to be relevant. But that seems to be the theory that holds the most weight. But there's a couple of others. The other one of the others is the emotional. I'm sorry I am… Can't do this all off the top of my head. The emotional response theory. And that theory suggests that emotions trigger either approach or avoidance behavior. Now obviously the type of humor that you want to be using in a classroom is positive humor and hopefully what you're doing is then creating the approach behaviors or facilitating the approach behaviors or triggering the approach behaviors I should say.

And that the approach behaviors then can make students feel more confident, more empowered, which therefore will assist them in improving their performance. And the third theory, Angie, when I tell you the name you'll pretty much guess what it suggests, is the attention of theory. And the third theory is that humor catches our attention.

And so by capturing our attention, it improves recall, and that improvement in recall can then actually lead to improved cognitive learning. So, three theories, Who knows which one is correct? They all overlap to some extent and I suspect like anything there's some truth in all of them. As the said, although it's really the first one that seems to be the most valued in the literature. Now, as I said, all these theories aside, whether humor actually improves learning outcomes, the evidence is a little mixed surprisingly.

Now, it depends really what studies you're looking at and there's not as many as you would think. A lot of the studies have suggested that there doesn't seem to be a particular link between humor and improved learning outcomes. However, when you delve a bit more deeply into those studies, there's not a lot of mythological consistency in those studies.

So, they haven't really controlled for what humor is being used. They haven't really controlled for how often the humor is being used or the situation or the class in which the humor is being used. And another thing such as duration. Again type of humor things like that. And there hasn't really been a consistently strong experimental setting. And it's in those studies that as I said, it's mixed.

Some studies with those sort of lack of, as I said lack of methodological rigor, I would perhaps put them. And it's quite some time ago, so no one will mind me saying that I don't think. Yeah, and as I said they're sort of mixed but there have been a couple of studies relatively recently I say relatively recently because the 80s feels pretty recent to me. But in the 80s and 90s, there were a couple of really good studies that did really control the experiments quite significantly and in those studies which I'll tell you a little bit more about. They did seem to be a correlation between humor used in the classroom and good learning outcomes for students.

So, the first study that I'll draw your attention to is by a gentleman called Avner Ziv. This was done in the 80s and he did find through a series of studies that humor did improve student outcomes. So, learning outcomes for students. And he did a number of really realistic experiments. So he set up two classrooms he trained a teacher in the use of humor. Set up two experiments, set up two

classrooms side by side and the teacher taught both, one using humor and one without the use of humor.

And he found that, sorry, did I say this? Now, the teacher was trained in the use of humor, so that there was a control aspect to this experiment. And he found that in the students where humor was used that they had a 10% better outcome in terms of their exam results at the end of the semester. So and that wasn't just a one-off. That outcome was replicated a number of times. So that was a pretty good initial experiment.

And what Ziv used was a particular methodology and he used or he trained the teacher in the use of this particular sequence of events. And so, the trained teacher would use to describe the concept, they would use a humorous example to illustrate the concept and then they paraphrase the concept and so using that methodology as I said, it seemed to be that the students who were exposed to humor had a better learning outcome.

So, that was the 1980sm that was a good time, a good decade with big hair and thin leather ties and some good humor experiments. So that's important too. And the other significant experiments came about in the 1990s too with a relatively large cohort of psychology students. And similar experiment, a control, and a control group set up side by side and the psychology students who had been exposed to humor retained the information that they had learned in the classes for a significantly longer period. And what was really interesting about those experiments was that straight after the classes, they didn't seem to be any significant difference in retention of information or learning outcomes.

But interestingly six weeks after, 12 weeks after two, I think they did an experiment as well, the learning outcomes were significantly higher. So, it seems that in experiments where there has been a lot of mythological similarities, that it has shown that there are learning outcomes that are improved by students who are exposed to humor.

But as I said, given there's not a lot of experimental material. But I do think that I'm more convinced by the experiments of Ziv and Kaplin and Pasko, who took more trouble to control for the type of humor and run essentially two parallel classes. Nevertheless, it's not true to say that it is established I think that humor can improve actual learning outcomes for students, but I'm optimistic that with future experiments perhaps that can be established. So student learning, student learning outcomes that's probably fair to put in the maybe category at this point.

But studies do conclusively show that the use of humor in classrooms and in university classrooms create better environments for students. And I think that's something we perhaps we all intuitively recognize and understand. University or learning in general but university in particular and law students, in particular, get very stressed. It's a pretty hardcore environment.

I think I can see a few students and I think they're all nodding in agreement. Yeah, it is. It's pretty hardcore. It's quite relentless and it's very anxiety provoking and humor as we know again intuitively improves our well-being. A Laugh releases endorphins. I hear I don't know if this is true or not that exercise has the same effect which is nice. And maybe I'll try that sometime.

Humor also works in terms of our environment as a social lubricant. It's a pretty powerful social tool and it promotes group cohesion. So the use of humor in the learning environment even if it doesn't

improve actual learning outcomes, improves social cohesion and can improve the learning environment for students.

So, I think it's fair to say, humor is a good thing and certainly in the learning environment and as a said even though it's inconclusive as to whether it makes a real difference in terms of learning outcomes, we know that it does create a happier, healthier learning environment. So, yay. They are however of course as always some qualifiers on the use of humor in class and to some extent you've probably already picked up on some of the things I've been saying, three qualifiers and if you're a golfer you like the acronym. Humor should be positive. It should be appropriate. And it should be relevant. Get it. PAR. Nice. No other golf analogies in here I'm sorry. So in terms of positive of course, as I said before there is no real room for negative humor in a classroom. And when we're talking about the use of humor we are assuming that it is positive.

So, no negatives, no derogatory humor, no cynical humor. Sarcasm is best-avoided. Irony maybe not. There is a difference between sarcasm and irony. Sarcasm is a form of irony but generally, it's targeting someone. And so, that's generally not a good idea in the classroom. The reason for that is as I said, we don't know for sure whether humor improves learning outcomes but we do know that it improves the learning environment and partly is because it as I said it's a social lubricant. It promotes good feeling.

Sarcasm by its definition does not promote good feeling and so anything that is overly sarcastic as a said, overly cynical is best avoided. The other thing I should say too and I'm sure that goes without saying is that humor should never be used as a cover for targeting anybody.

It's still not funny even if the barb is covered by something humorous. In a teaching relationship there is an inherent power imbalance and so it's cognate, it's up to the teacher to be aware and cognizant of that power imbalance. And so anything that is hiding something else and by that I mean it's that of a target of someone, should not be used. So, humor should always be positive.

In addition, the age of the pot. Humor should be appropriate. Some things and I'm sure you know this already as well. Some things are just not funny. My earlier joke about the proposal. Not funny. (LAUGHTER) Some things are also not funny such as taboo topics. And I'm sure you don't even need me to tell you what those taboo topics are. Don't go near religion, obviously race or gender, they are taboo topics and should be avoided when you're talking. When you're trying to introduce humor into a classroom.

It's also worth bearing in mind that people come from a wide variety of backgrounds and we don't know what the people who, the people who we are talking to what they've experienced in their lives. Some people may have experienced things that are just unpleasant and if they have one then that's a good thing. Some people have experienced things that are downright traumatic. It's best to avoid things that could unintentionally harm someone or wound someone in the classroom.

Anything to do with for example domestic violence, drug abuse, illness is generally off limits. The general rule to remember is don't trash the oppressed. And as I said don't go near anything that would not be funny if it had happened to you. On that note too, if you are introducing humor into the classroom if you want to introduce humor into a presentation or something like that, it's always

a good idea that if you're going to target anyone, the only person who you should be targeting is of course yourself.

There's a great line I don't if you have seen the movie 'Kissing Jessica Stein.' Has anyone ever seen that movie yet? Where the guy talks about self-deprecating humor. That's different. That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about self-deprecating humor. So if you're gonna target anyone as I said, target it at yourself.

And finally, the A of Par is that the humor should be relevant. I should do well to take notice of that sometimes. Now, we know that again, from the studies that Ziv and Kaplan and Pasko have done that when they controlled their experiments, they were using relevant humor. So, it was humor that was relevant to the concept that was being taught.

So, it doesn't seem to be a distraction or a digression. If the humor that's being used in the classroom or again wherever you're sharing knowledge if the humor is relevant to the topic. So, in other words, the humor that's being used should always have a pedagogical purpose. So the humor is in service of the content or the lesson rather than the humor being in service of the person who's telling the joke.

The other thing that's really important to remember and again this comes out of the studies the Zaven the Kaplin and Pasko studies is that it should never be overdone. Although there doesn't seem to be an exact number of times that humor can be used per hour. The studies that Ziv and Kaplan and Pasko did seem to suggest that somewhere between three and four times per lecture was about right.

So, that's about once every 15 minutes I've broken my own rule. But nevertheless, that's about right, in a teaching environment. A lecture generally goes for about 45 minutes once or twice maybe a third time if it's if you're really on a roll and it's relevant to the topic you can probably get away with it. The danger, of course, is you know overdoing it. Much like Madonna and her face at the moment. You don't want to be, that's not nice.

No. No. I can't trash the oppressed but I don't think Madonna's oppressed, so I'm going to move on from that. The thing to remember is we're not here to be well if we were in university or in a school or giving a presentation, unless you were being hired to be a stand-up, then your job is not there to be a clown, the job is, your job is there of course to convey and to share your knowledge. And so the humor has to be relevant. It has to be not overdone and it has to be as I said in service to the material.

Now, again, I think I might have mentioned this when I talked about Ziv's. But Ziv's methodology seems to be a really good methodology to use at first instance if you are thinking that you want to incorporate more humor into your teaching. It is teach the concept, illustrate the concept with something humorous and then paraphrase that concept again incorporating the humor into it.

So you're sandwiching the humor around the content. So again, the humor is very much in service to the content or to the message. Now, I think I've ripped through this. I thought I was, I haven't got a watch on, so I'm sorry. This is five minutes. (LAUGHTER) So, I guess what I am saying is that there is good research that suggests that humor is not only something that we enjoy and that creates a comfortable social environment but that it also seems to when the studies have got what I would

consider to be sort of methodological purity for want of a better expression, that it does seem to be, that it does seem to on balance, suggest that there is a positive relationship between humor in a classroom and student learning outcomes.

But that's not to say that everyone should be using humor unless they're comfortable doing it. And if it's you and if you have what is called a high humor orientation, then it is worth trying in the classroom. You shouldn't shy away from the use of humor and I say classroom, of course, I mean in presentation as well. You shouldn't shy away from it because the evidence is that actually, it's going to increase the impact that you might have. But if it's not your thing, then and if you are what's known as low humor orientation, then you shouldn't feel obliged to use it. Obviously, because teaching is essentially a relationship and that it's best when we bring our sort of authentic selves to that relationship.

Like any relationship I guess. And so, if it's not you, then you shouldn't feel obliged to use humor if it's not something that comes naturally to you. And the studies do also seem to suggest that it's worth spending time developing your own sense of humor whatever that might be before you introduce it into your teaching. Judy Garland said and I think she's right, "It's better to be a first-rate version of yourself than a second rate version of someone else."

And I think that's come true in relation to this topic as well. But even if you don't want to use humor in that sort of that purest sense by telling a joke or being witty or introducing some element of slapstick into your teaching or sharing of information. What is for sure in this topic. What is for sure and this sort of the research is that it's the immediacy behaviors that definitely make a difference in the classroom or in the in any event as I said where we're sharing knowledge.

And so, if humor is not your thing, then it's still okay just to actually do whatever makes you feel comfortable to welcome people into the space where you're sharing your knowledge. So that might just be a smile. And if that's what you're comfortable doing then that's enough. Because it's about creating that immediacy behavior and that warmth. So everyone can relax essentially and enjoy the experience and hopefully take something away from that. So, that was all I really wanted to say. The topic, the title of my topic was, 'It's funny how humor helps you learn.' And it is funny because humor I think does actually help us learn. That's it. (CROWD APPLAUSES)

Now questions. Any questions?

Now that's a good question. In terms of now, of course, I'm going to say in terms of my humor, absolutely not, it's never backfired. But I hear, I've spoken to a friend about this, yeah, a friend and I've heard that sometimes it doesn't necessarily work. Now, they actually and I have talked about this topic in a number of different environments too and generally speaking I've spoken about it to fellow colleagues either at the UWA where I work or in other universities. I mean conferences and things and often people will ask me that question or say, I tried something and it fell flat.

Now, I'm not convinced that anything can truly fall flat because the joke itself may not work. And again, of course, I guess I'm qualifying what I'm saying here by saying that we're assuming that this is positive humor at all times and not something that is either taboo or negative. Assuming that it is positive humor, the joke itself may not work. But if we think back to what the studies show, the studies are mixed although again I tend to think it probably does have an impact on student

learning. But humor does seem to definitely, we know, the studies do seem to show that that humor definitely has an impact on the social cohesion of the group.

And so, I tend to think that even if the joke itself does not work. The fact that you're bringing what's known as immediacy behaviors to the group and attempting to introduce warmth and social cohesion actually has the desired impact. So again the qualifier, of course, is that it is not negative humor that it's not somehow targeting anyone or distressing anyone.

So, yes some jokes as I found out, I mean as friends have told me they found out themselves, don't fly as well as you think they're going to do when they are in your head. But nevertheless, the fact that you bringing the attempt and the warmth I think has some positive impact anyway. (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think it does come back to that. It's that authenticity of behavior and that desire to promote social cohesion and warmth in that environment. Yeah. (INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

That's a good question. Is there any benefit in the type of, in the type of people who benefit from humor? That's a really good question. The studies that have been done are actually based around classrooms. So students in general. So some of them have been done in the university context, some have been done in the secondary or primary school context. So I guess in a sense they're all students.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Yeah, that's really interesting. Look there hasn't been any study that I've seen that actually controlled for gender and that's to some extent part of the problems I think with some of the studies about learning outcome is that there wasn't a sufficient control. But even the Zaven the Kaplan studies didn't particularly control for gender.

No. No. So, I guess the answer to your question is...

STUDENT 2:

I was kind of getting there, like a lot more. People, who struggle with learning like people who are very good students do they benefit less or people that are?

DR KATE OFFER:

That's it, Luke. That's a good question and in terms of the studies, there hasn't been anything that's sort of been directed at that issue in particular. But I think intuitively, do you know what? I tend to think again, in terms of that high humor orientation low humor orientation, I'm not necessarily funny but I like humor.

STUDENT 2:

I think you are very funny.

DR KATE OFFER:

Thank you. Thank you laughter. Thank you. Thanks for a box 50. So how did you get the key joking? No. No. So I tend to think humor is a benefit. Full stop. And again bearing in mind the qualifier it can't be negative it can't end. And I think because people come from such different backgrounds and have experienced so many different things.

That's why the humor has to relate to the material, not anyone who's in the room. And so, I think that's, so that is such an important qualifier on the use of humor. So, that's a, look it's an interesting issue actually. And and this lady he also mentioned too about the issues that are controlling for gender controlling for culture. As far as I'm aware there haven't been any studies that have particularly controlled for that. And also I guess in some ways to the notion of culture is a bit of a slippery concept anyway. I think it would be a difficult thing to control for.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Yes. Yeah. English speaking yes. And the ones yes. I mean in terms of the hardcore empirical studies that generally come out of the United States. Yep.

Yep. So yeah. English speaking, not dissimilar I think in many ways to Australian culture or the Australian experience. Yeah.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

STUDENT 1:

So I'm quite extrovert naturally. But I was thinking if I was sort of introverted in a crowd and the lecturer told a joke, I'd feel more sort of humanizing to be able to relate to them a little bit better if it was something that I sort of related to his. They're talking about themselves in a certain situation.

Yeah, I think humor is a great thing in lectures. I study online and I really do relate to it when they tell a joke even if it's online you can't see them. It really humanizes the situation it's not just a voice talking to you. It's more of a story.

DR KATE OFFER:

Yeah, yeah. I think you're right and I think that's again what's come so clearly through the research is that it's about creating the immediacy behaviors is how they referred to, it's actually about that human connection. And if it and you're right, if it relates to something that they've done again if you're targeting anyone target yourself, self-deprecating humor. It does humanize the person who is teaching. Now it's really hard for me to think that anyone I've taught would see me as somehow aloof, you know what I mean? Like somehow different and knowing everything. I'm a chapter ahead. I'm not really hangover. Not really.

But actually, of course, you forget...

STUDENT 1:

That was hilarious you need to do that more often in the classes.

DR KATE OFFER:

No but I think it does. I think you forget when any when anyone's in that sort of position there is as I said there is an inherent power imbalance whether we as teachers are really aware of it or not. You always have to be cognizant of it because again, I remember what it was like when I was a student when I first started studying I couldn't, I didn't know what to call my lectures. So for years I didn't call them anything. I'd go excuse me. I didn't know how to call them with their first name to call them. I didn't know what to do.

And so because I was like, there is a fancy-pants lecturer...they were a little bit different, weren't they? Until they created that relationship with you and you actually know them.

STUDENT 2:

Exactly, of course. But before that, you're right, before that you don't know. And so yes. So, but humor is one way to bridge that gap.

DR KATE OFFER:

Yeah definitely.

STUDENT 2:

And I know from my own experience too at law school is that the things I remember from the subjects I ended up sort of studying in 1987 and then forgetting about, there are a couple of aspects from all of those subjects that I remember and it's only because the lecturer told a joke or made some funny comment. And that I'll remember a particular case or I'll remember a particular principle of law simply because the joke was attached to it and to be honest with you that's what actually got me interested in this as a topic to think about how I personally do, I do like to introduce humor into my own teaching cause I enjoy it. Apart from anything else and I think it's useful because I remember literally I remember remembering things from again, like over thirty years ago now when I was at law school myself.

DR KATE OFFER:

Thank you.

STUDENT 2:

You're welcome. So polite tell your mum. Yes, a random lady who does not walk her dog in the same park and I walk my dog.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

You're a lot older than me that's true. Yes, you have to be terrified that distance can be alright yes.

Yeah, that's actually a really interesting point and again that hasn't been particularly controlled for in any of the literature. And again, I talk about the literature as though it's this vast body of work. There's these sparse pickings in terms of this particular area. In terms of empirical studies and that's a really interesting issue. But again I suspect my instinctive response to that is that humor creates immediacy whether we feel, I mean a lot of the time because there is often an imbalance of power imbalance that the immediacy can bridge that gap. But even if there isn't the power imbalance

because you've come back later, you know, for whatever reason, it's still creating a warmth. That assists in the development of social cohesion. Yeah.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Yeah. No, I think it's a good thing.

Yeah, I know. I think it is. As I said my basic if I could summarize this in two words, humor good. Which shouldn't surprise you that I think that.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Well, that's the thing. Now interestingly I have been looking into doing my own empirical research in this area and I have not been able to get past the people who've said that cause I think, yeah that is actually pretty tricky. Again Ziv's experiment was involving two different groups and the group that was exposed to humor did better. So, there's a bit of an ethical dilemma there in terms of running that experiment again. Are you actually going to do it in class?

And then one group is actually going to do that and their law students you know they will, they will come back and sue you. Yeah, you teach them too well and that's what happens. Yeah.

(INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION)

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, this is an ethical dilemma. Yeah absolutely. Yes.

STUDENT 3:

So, if humor and immediacy is so good, how come as you go from primary to high, to tertiary they get less and less engaging and less immediacy goes down?

DR KATE OFFER:

Good question

STUDENT 3:

Cause my university lecturer was everyone's friend. One of my university lecturers that and no offense, but very high and mighty and immediacy goes down. And we're learning more important, guys that...

DR KATE OFFER:

That's a very good question. Two things Firstly I'd say, Come to deal or UWA, where everyone's adorable and cuddly.

STUDENT 3:

That's pretty hard though. Probably not.

DR KATE OFFER:

Secondly, yeah, that is a very good question. And you know I wonder why that is. And I don't think it should be the case. I think there is this perception that somehow, tertiary study it's a serious business and it is a serious business.

But there's no reason that that serious business can't be made more enjoyable by incorporating more again, with more human immediacy as I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be humor although I think humor works particularly well in the learning environment. Again as long as it's appropriate that it's, you know, it's not overdone. Yeah, but why isn't there more humor. In universities? Why isn't there more humor in the in the workplace and in our presentations? And I think the reason.

Is that perception that to be taken seriously, we have to be really serious. (GIGGLES) That may still be the case for all I know. And you will go, or I'll go. OK, academics at UWA. Alright, OK. But why can't it be funny?

STUDENT 1:

Is it really? Is it really or (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

Is that really the case though? Is it your perception? Or is that what's actually happening? Because we know from a neurological development, high school kids are just not seeing the fun in adults anymore. Because they're wasting their brain away, for a little while. So, you know (LAUGHS)

STUDENT 2:

(INAUDIBLE)...

DR KATE OFFER:

Yeah.

STUDENT 2:

..(INAUDIBLE) maybe sit quietly (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

Yeah...No, no I think that's true. And I think partly too, that is perhaps some of the institutional structures of a university. I think it depends if it weren't a big lecture, then there's less room for that immediacy. But I think that's why in some ways, humor can be more important in those environments. Because...because...the thing is just because we get older doesn't mean we need less immediacy. I mean, I said as a mother of three children, I'd see that in my own children as well. But I also remember very clearly what it felt like to be a university student. I mean this is another one of my back base. Although this is not...necessarily on topic, is that everyone grows up. Oh! It's wonderful to be a young person. And look, you know what? In many ways, it is. It's also wonderful to be a person in your 40s, or 50s or 60s, or 70s, or whatever. (INAUDIBLE) is 20s and 30s there. They're all good as well. But there's also a lot of uncertainty about being 20. It's actually a really stressful time. And it's...yeah...no it is, isn't it? You know what annoys me? When everyone says, Gee! All these are the best days of your life.

And it's like, well that means (GIGGLES) then that the oh Gee, is that all down hill from there. Then I'm 21, it's never gonna be better. And it's actually not always good at 21 or whatever. And I'd think that's actually...it comes from a really good place, that advice. It's to say, enjoy it...you know because, you know, you're not weighed down by you know, a mortgage or whatever.

STUDENT 3:

..(INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

Yeah exactly! Hey, be thankful, you've just got a (INAUDIBLE) and you know, crippling insecurity. Like we still actually still do in our 50s, anyway...

(STUDENTS LAUGH)

DR KATE OFFER:

..But the thing is being...I think it's important doing incorporate humor. And whether it's humor, or whether it's smiling, or whether it's immediac behaviors into university, particularly because people forget that actually being young's pretty tricky. It looks pretty good from the outside 'cause your skin tone is great!

(STUDENTS LAUGH)

DR KATE OFFER:

But it's tricky because you don't know life is actually bit of a roller coaster in your late teens and early 20s. That it evens out as you get older abit. And so I think people forget that...yeah...So...I agree with you I do think there is a sort of a tendency...and again...you know, it's like OK. It's...you're adults now and you're responsible for your own learning. Yes that's true but it doesn't mean we can't actually incorporate more warmth into that environment. And so I think, if I had to say what's behind my interest in this, I think that's what's behind it. Again, I'm gonna be 50 next month. But I remember going back...I do remember university very clearly. And the shock of the lack of...connection of being in a big university. And I think that's a shame,

And I think what it does is actually... I think well... I'll talk about it in the more positive sense. i think by incorporating immediacy behaviors into the learning environment, everyone can then relax. And it takes the stress levels down. And then actually, people can get on with the business of what they're there to do, which is actually engage with the material and learn. So, it's nice anyway but I think it has a greater pedagogical purpose, which is just taking the stress levels down. Which then, as I said...then allows people to go, OK there's nothing to be fear...too fearful here in this environment. What I'm studying is really interesting and to actually feel that they can engage much more with the material.

So, I think that's...again that is probably why I'm really interested in this, you know...from... I digressed a bit there actually.It happens. Any other questions? Yeah, oh yes. Random gentleman who bought me champagne earlier

(STUDENTS LAUGH)

...colleague.

STUDENT 4:

So, you mentioned that you have to stay away from contemptious topics and (INAUDIBLE). But do you think that you can actually talk about serious subjects (INAUDIBLE) aren't potentially ensuing trigger warnings (INAUIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

You know what? You can. Well, I just think there are so many topics you can use that do not get near to crossing the line. Why...why would you? I my basic...but in terms of, is it possible? Absolutely, it's possible. And I mean again. Stand-ups do it all the time and can make us laugh, and can make us think. I'm just not convinced the university classroom is the place to try that. Yeah, I mean again you're right. I know there's a sort of a great deal of discussion about this sort of the increase of trigger warnings. I don't have a problem, and of course some of the stuff I teach... Evidence is one of the subjects I teach which can deal with some fairly unpleasant criminal law cases. I'm really quite happy just to notify people, this is pretty unpleasant. And if you're gonna read this case, you should remember that...you know, it's not a particularly nice subject matter.

Because, I mean as I said, some people have experienced what I'm directing them to read. And so, I don't have a problem with that. So, just alerting them. I think they should still read them...if there's a particular important point of law. But I don't think it's a problem to actually just give them the heads up, that this is something they might find difficult. And if they do find it too difficult, perhaps there's an alternative they could read where the same principle of law is discussed. But it's not gonna be as upsetting. So, yeah I do think it's possible. And look, I'm a big believer in the power of humor. And so, as I said yeah, i mean comedians demonstrate that all the time. That it's possible to get very close to the edge. And sometimes that message could be so much more powerful in those circumstances.

But as I said, i'm just convinced the university classroom is the place for that. There's an extent to which someone going to see a commedian for example, is actually...and I don't wanna get into too many legal (INAUDIBLE), but it's actuall willingly consenting to what they may hear. There's a bit more urgency than there is perhaps in the university classroom. So, I do prefer to stay well away from anything like that. Although, i mean I'd take your point and I think, yeah it probably can be done. I'm just not prepared to be the one who risks getting on the front page of the worst Australian to do it.

(STUDENTS LAUGH).

STUDENT 5:

(INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

OK, well...well I I mean I don't know. I sure can see some students started around here, then might go, or remember the time you said this. I thought you might actually out-throw it too. This is Tom who works for UWA. He's also an ex-student and he's putting his hand up willingly.

STUDENT 6:

(INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER:

(LAUGHS)

STUDENT 6:

(INAUDIBLE) (STUDENTS LAUGH) So I decided to repeat that (STUDENTS LAUGH) to make sure we all got (INAUDIBLE).

DR KATE OFFER:

Yes, I do. And I seem to remember think a malicious erection. I'm not sure what...

The judges been looking at always to that effect. Thank you for bringing that up.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Most of them (LAUGHTER) most of them are G-rated. But a point proven though, you remember Hunter and Canary Wharf, and the principle and what was the outcome of that case. Do you remember? Can you interfere (LAUGHTER) Uh yeah nicely done. Nicely done. Yes and though, the point of law was that if...if you're interfering with someone's television signal and you built your property in accordance with town planning laws, then, no you couldn't. But, now let's do something that will making something a nuisance when (INAUDIBLE) would otherwise not have been. And so therefore if there was a malicious erection, in the words of the house of lords, I'm not being rude because that's what they said, then it could be a nuisance. But it wasn't in this case. Nicely done. (LAUGHTER) Nicely - well played House of Lords. (LAUGHS) Well playing. (LAUGHS) I love that case. (LAUGHTER) I use that every semester too. It's a good one...

It's good one (LAUGHTER)... the other one - so sometimes it'll (INAUDIBLE) funny things are there in the judgement as well. And so look, to be honest with you ,in law, some cases are hysterical...unintentionally hysterical because of what's actually happened. I'm thinking Burton and Winters where Mrs Burton kept building a wall, kept going to jail, kept building it...just crazy kind of low level mad behaviors, which, as I said, always, always good fun...or - so there's that kind of stuff. So it can be the materials that you're choosing to use in the classroom...then obviously it was straighter point of law..or it can be like a little clip,again I'm just thinking. And this is pretty lame and it gets a sad laugh. Which.. which is - so which I still think - again back to your earlier point...if it's not a brilliant joke and it doesn't land, it doesn't matter, I' think it's funny (LAUGHTER)

There's a case in (INAUDIBLE) law called the Hollywood silver fox firm, and I (LAUGHS) I say this students,that's now where George Clooney was born, (LAUGHTER) and they give me a sad laugh, like I get a half kind of PT laugh, (LAUGHS) Who's George Clooney? Is probably what a lot of them

were thinking, whose George - I know. I know...So there's things like that, little quips,or it can be sort of a (INAUDIBLE) and think some of you here - and then she's funny. Cause students still said at me, oh I call that Britney Spears evidence. Because...there's a principle in evidence law called Propensity of an evidence, or similar fact evidence where...wher the accused has actually got a record or has engaged in the behavior before, and so I got this idea from...a new lecturer who had written a great article on all the things she did in her evidence...lectures, I never how the use of music and how the use of music can be engaging and I thought actually oops I did it again by Britney Spears, is a good example of...similar fact evidence.

So I pledged - I played, oops I did it in class again, it's like yeah. It's like that's awesome because that's cheezy...and silly and it was like - and I thought like, there all gonna go, oh oh. But they were all - every student was like, oh my God it's Britney Spears, like could you play the whole thing, (LAUGHTER) don't just do - and then I said up sort of the things like, oh Britney has been charged with...playing with someone's heart. She's also got lost in the game, made someone believe that she was more than a friend, in which - yeah. And to get them thinking about, when what someone has done in the past, would be relevant to what they're being charged with at the present time. And - I mean, of course, it's silly and it's such a fun video, and it's a silly song, but actually it was really useful to illustrate that principle and to get people thinking about relevance in a (INAUDIBLE) relevance in a legal context, what's the difference, and different points at which we think that her past behavior was relevant to the current charge.

So which she was charged with the - under the love offences act. So, you can use that, again - so sometimes there's an immoral lab setup...or sometimes it's just something. OK, so yeah it depends on terms of examples, but look - I mean again, of course...it can be a funny power point slide. It can be a relevant cartoon that you could have found,it can be...a prop that's relevant to a particular case, there's all sorts of ways that you can incorporate. And as I said, of course, I'm talking about classroom, but this is not just about classroom, this is about, as I said, any time that we're sharing...information or knowledge or...there's a way to incorporate humour to make the message resonate more deeply I think.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: I beg your pardon (LAUGHTER) I do. I'll have that - if we could strike that from the record... Britney Spears is a very sensible performer, and...

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: No. She didn't (INAUDIBLE) Well, I mean - and the songs she writes are meaningful, and I apologize for any (LAUGHTER) any offence I might have caused to anyone who loves Britney Spears. (LAUGHTER)

STUDENT: So you're suggesting to your students that they should use (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Well now. Now t6he judiciary are not known for their sense of humour, (LAUGHTER) in the context of the courtroom. So no. I'm talking about this in the educational context only. Thank you for qualifying (LAUGHS) what I said. I mean, it's not to say that you can't try it occasionally, but I say the very judicious (INAUDIBLE) in court. (LAUGHTER) And I'm not sure either

(INAUDIBLE) successfully or at all, to be honest with you. There's a time and a place, where (INAUDIBLE) are important and I suspect the courtroom is not one of them.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Yes.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Now, do you know - and I'm thinking of...my (INAUDIBLE) comments if you were at the dean of the student (INAUDIBLE) dinner debate, when the judges make a joke, we all laugh (LAUGHS) I've never heard anything so funny Your Honour, (LAUGHTER) That's OK coming from that direction, I'm not sure...well I look at nothing that more junior you are, perhaps the more you put a lid on it...perhaps if you get to an incredibly high level of seniority, you can drop the odd funny in occasionally you read the - what is it? Is it shit judges say? You'll sometimes see a little bit of (INAUDIBLE) but...I think that's to be tread very carefully in the courtroom. Yes. So, if I can add another qualifier - disclaimer, everything I have said relates to the educational non-courtroom, situation.

STUDENT: Like judge Judy.

DR KATE OFFER: Like judge Judy. She's awesome.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: I do.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: She is a real judge. Yeah, she earns a lot of money. And I'd like that job (LAUGHTER) frankly, yeah. Any more questions? I think that's kind of - time. Yeah. Thanks (APPLAUSE) (LAUGHS) It's so much fun. Thank you. Thanks for coming to hear the rantings (LAUGHS) of a mad woman, that was fun.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: No. Yeah - No (LAUGHTER) my sponsor. Absolutely they're my sponsors. Thursday morning, hallo? I'll be checking (INAUDIBLE) .com (LAUGHTER) Assuming it's still there and I haven't been sent for anything I've said this evening...thanks to UWA for raising the bar. I think my (INAUDIBLE) is going to...No? That's me, Ok. Awesome. Well thank you so much for coming, for first raising the bar, and it's just - it's certainly been a lot of fun to be involved.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Oh, there's an article that I've done with a colleague, in relation to this material, yeah.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Yeah. Absolutely. So, well you've got my name, so if you - yeah if you...yeah it is - yeah. Yeah.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE) (LAUGHTER)

DR KATE OFFER: Stay tuned.

STUDENT: (INAUDIBLE)

DR KATE OFFER: Thank you everyone. Bye. (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)