6522 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 v. OMAR AHMAD ALI ABDEL RAHMAN, 4 a/k/a "Omar Ahmed Ali," a/k/a "Omar Abdel Al-Rahman," 5 a/k/a "Sheik Rahman,", a/k/a "The Sheik," 6 a/k/a "Sheik Omar," EL SAYYID NOSAIR, 7 a/k/a "Abu Abdallah," a/k/a "El Sayyid Abdul Azziz," 8 a/k/a "Victor Noel Jafry," IBRAHIM A. EL-GABROWNY, 9 SIDDIG IBRAHIM SIDDIG ALI, a/k/a "Khalid," 10 a/k/a "John Medley," CLEMENT HAMPTON-EL, S5 93 Cr. 181 (MBM) 11 a/k/a "Abdul Rashid Abdullah," a/k/a "Abdel Rashid," 12 a/k/a "Doctor Rashid," AMIR ABDELGANI, 13 a/k/a "Abu Zaid," a/k/a "Abdou Zaid," 14 FARES KHALLAFALLA, a/k/a "Abu Fares," 15 a/k/a "Abdou Fares," TARIG ELHASSAN, 16 a/k/a "Abu Aisha," FADIL ABDELGANI, 17 MOHAMMED SALEH, a/k/a "Mohammed Ali," 18 VICTOR ALVAREZ, a/k/a "Mohammed," and 19 MATARAWY MOHAMMED SAID SALEH, a/k/a "Wahid," 20 Defendants. 21 ------------------------------x April 3, 1995 22 9:35 a.m. Before: 23 HON. MICHAEL B. MUKASEY, 24 District Judge 25

6523 1 2 APPEARANCES 3 4 MARY JO WHITE United States Attorney for the 5 Southern District of New York BY: ANDREW McCARTHY 6 PATRICK FITZGERALD ROBERT KHUZAMI 7 Assistant United States Attorneys 8 ABDEEN M. JABARA 9 LYNNE STEWART and RAMSEY CLARK 10 Attorneys for Defendant Omar Ahmad Ali Abdel Rahman 11 ROGER STAVIS and 12 ANDREW PATEL Attorneys for Defendant El Sayyid Nosair 13 14 ANTHONY RICCO Attorney for Defendant Ibrahim A. El-Gabrowny 15 16 KENNETH D. WASSERMAN Attorney for Defendant Clement Hampton-El 17 18 STEVEN M. BERNSTEIN Attorney for Defendant Amir Abdelgani 19 20 VALERIE C. AMSTERDAM Attorney for Defendant Fares Khallafalla 21 22 JOYCE E. LONDON Attorney for Defendant Tarig Elhassan 23 24 25

6524 1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED 2 3 GROSSMAN, LAVINE & RINALDO Attorneys for Defendant Fadil Abdelgani 4 BY: CHARLES D. LAVINE 5 JOHN H. JACOBS 6 Attorney for Defendant Mohammed Saleh 7 BROWN, BERNE & SERRA 8 Attorneys for Defendant Victor Alvarez BY: WESLEY M. SERRA 9 10 FREEMAN, NOOTER & GINSBERG Attorneys for Defendant Matarawy Mohammed Said Saleh 11 BY: THOMAS H. NOOTER 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

6525 1 (Trial reresumed) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning. Before we get the 4 jury, Mr. Stavis, we had talked early on about your 5 submitting a memo a couple days after you got done. 6 MR. STAVIS: Yes. Your Honor, I spoke to Mr. 7 Khuzami about that issue this morning. I have narrowed the 8 issues based on the information contained in the March 8 9 letter from the government that they did not learn of this 10 statement until we started trial. I was waiving my Rule 16 11 objection, and I also informed Mr. Khuzami that I would be 12 waiving any claim of physician-patient privilege, so that 13 the issue is narrowed to a Sixth Amendment issue, and I told 14 Mr. Khuzami that I am in the process of working on that. 15 But the issue has been narrowed. 16 THE COURT: Any idea when? 17 MR. STAVIS: We will attempt to get something by 18 Friday, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 20 MS. MACEDONIO: Good morning, your Honor. Mr. 21 Jacobs is in the Eastern District this morning. He will be 22 in at 11:30. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Saleh, is it all right with you 24 that Ms. Macedonio will be sitting in for you? 25 DEFENDANT MOHAMMED SALEH: Yes.

6526 1 THE COURT: Thank you very much. 2 EMAD SALEM, resumed. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 5 JURORS: Good morning. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Salem, you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman. 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION continued 10 BY MR. WASSERMAN: 11 Q. Good morning. 12 A. Good morning, sir. 13 Q. Mr. Salem, just to pick up where, approximately, 14 we left off on Thursday, your first meeting with Dr. Rashid 15 was in June of 1992, correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. In a meeting was followed by a meeting in May, 18 May 30 of 1993, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. After the May 30 meeting, there was another 21 meeting that you had with Dr. Rashid, correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. The date for that was June 16. That would be CM 24 45, I believe, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.

6527 1 Q. It is CM 45 or 41, depending upon how you look at 2 it. But June 16 is the date, correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And the arrests in this case were conducted on 5 June 24, I believe, the early morning hours of June 24, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. You had a telephone call on June 23, the evening 9 of June 23. You were inquiring, even, whether the arrests 10 were about to be made, correct? 11 A. A phone call to who, sir? 12 A. To one of the agents. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Which agent was that? 15 A. As far as I recall, it was Agent Louis Napoli, 16 sir. 17 Q. We left off, I think, about the first recorded 18 conversation that you had with -- the first officially 19 recorded conversation that you had with Siddig Ali was on 20 May 7, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. At that time he asked you where to get the 23 detonators and you suggested Dr. Rashid. That's what you 24 testified to last week, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.

6528 1 MR. McCARTHY: Objection -- withdrawn. 2 Q. Did there come a time between -- withdrawn. On 3 or about May 24 -- that's between the first reported 4 conversation with Siddig Ali on May 7 and your meeting with 5 Dr. Rashid on May 30 -- didn't you report back to the FBI 6 that Siddig had told you that Dr. Rashid had available for 7 you to pick up two balls? Correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And I believe in response to one of Mr. 10 McCarthy's questions you informed us that balls equals hand 11 grenades, correct? 12 A. Yes, that's the alias name we used for hand 13 grenades, sir. 14 Q. Do you recall which agent you reported that 15 Dr. Rashid had the two hand grenades ready to be picked up? 16 Do you recall who you reported that to? 17 A. It could be either Louis Napoli or John Anticev, 18 sir. 19 Q. But there is no question in your mind that Siddig 20 Ali told you the balls were ready, you reported that 21 information in, correct? That's what you testified to a 22 moment ago, correct? 23 A. Yes. I am trying to remember exactly, sir. 24 Q. Do you recall? 25 A. I don't recall the exact words. I remember that

6529 1 there came a time Siddig told me that Rashid said things 2 ready, some balls is ready, and I reported that, but I don't 3 recall details about it. 4 Q. I am just going to read the words that you said 5 from the transcript -- your Honor, that's at E in your book, 6 and, Mr. McCarthy, it is at page 22. 7 MR. McCARTHY: Is this to refresh recollection? 8 THE COURT: What is the purpose of reading this? 9 MR. WASSERMAN: The purpose of reading is that -- 10 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman, if you want to refresh 11 his recollection, you can show him the page. Otherwise pose 12 a question. Don't just read it. 13 MR. WASSERMAN: If I can have a stipulation from 14 the government as to the date of CM 14, May 24? 15 THE COURT: There is no issue about the date. 16 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, if I may, I think he 17 raised an issue about it. 18 MR. McCARTHY: Your Honor, I will check my 19 records. If it turns out that our records are May 24, I 20 will stipulate that is the date. I don't have it at this 21 minute. 22 THE COURT: Also, we had a conversation about it. 23 MR. McCARTHY: Can we can have another 24 conversation if it turns -- 25 THE COURT: Let's just proceed and ask the

6530 1 question. 2 Q. Didn't you tell Agent Napoli and John Anticev -- 3 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 4 MR. WASSERMAN: I haven't finished. 5 MR. McCARTHY: The last answer is a failure of 6 recollection, at best. 7 THE COURT: Do you want to show him the 8 transcript. 9 (Pause) 10 Q. Does that refresh your recollection, sir? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 MR. WASSERMAN: And I believe the government will 13 stipulate that this conversation takes place either late the 14 24th or early on May 25th. 15 MR. McCARTHY: That is correct. 16 Q. You then proceed to have a rendezvous with 17 Dr. Rashid on May 30, correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did you pick up any hand grenades at this meeting 20 on May 30? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Before you met with Dr. Rashid on May 30, did you 23 have any conversations with Siddig Ali concerning what 24 Dr. Rashid did for a living? 25 A. From what I understood, that he is doing x-ray,

6531 1 he is a technician for x-rays, sir? 2 Q. Didn't Siddig tell you that he was a physician of 3 autopsy, bones, and a chiropractor? 4 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 5 THE COURT: I will allow it. 6 A. My recollection, sir, that he was a technician 7 for x-rays and things in that effect. I didn't pay that 8 attention to what he is doing for a living, sir. 9 Q. The question is, didn't Siddig tell you -- 10 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 Q. -- before you met with Dr. Rashid that he was a 13 physician of autopsy, bones, and a chiropractor? That is at 14 page 25 of CM 24. 15 A. I may said that, sir, but I don't recall this 16 part. 17 Q. Had you ever heard of a doctor of autopsy, bones 18 and a chiropractor all in one? 19 A. I beg your pardon, sir. 20 Q. Had you ever heard of a doctor of autopsy, bones 21 and a chiropractor all in one? 22 A. No, sir, I did not. 23 Q. Would you subsequently find out that Dr. Rashid 24 was in fact a medical technician -- 25 MR. McCARTHY: Objection.

6532 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. You have testified that you met Dr. Rashid on 3 June 16 as well, correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. That meeting took place at the Farooq mosque on 6 Atlantic Avenue, correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. The Farooq mosque is near where Dr. Rashid 9 worked, correct? 10 A. I don't know, sir. 11 Q. Siddig Ali never told you that he worked at a 12 dialysis clinic three blocks away? 13 A. He may said it but it wasn't the focus of my 14 attention, sir. 15 Q. Isn't that basically how the meeting came about 16 because Dr. Rashid would often pray at the Farooq mosque 17 because it was so convenient to his place of employment? 18 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. At this meeting on May 30? Withdrawn. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman, would you please stand 22 where the microphone is. Thank you. 23 Q. Before you had this meeting on May 30, doesn't 24 Siddig tell you that Rashid doesn't know who's coming? 25 A. I am sorry, sir.

6533 1 Q. Doesn't Siddig tell you that Rashid doesn't know 2 who's coming? 3 A. Doesn't know what, sir? 4 Q. Who is coming. 5 A. Who is coming where, sir? 6 Q. To the meeting. He doesn't know that you are 7 coming to the meeting. Doesn't he tell you? 8 A. I don't remember that, sir. 9 Q. Do you tell Siddig Ali the Ali Shinawy story, to 10 wit, do you tell Siddig that you had met with Rashid a year 11 ago and that Rashid had offered you ready-made bombs and 12 machine guns and stuff like that? Did you tell him that 13 story? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. At this meeting on May 30, did you tell that 16 story in front of Rashid? 17 A. Dr. Rashid said that -- 18 Q. Yes or no, sir, please. 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Thank you. You have testified previously that 21 the place that you had the meeting was a safe house, 22 correct? 23 A. That's what I -- 24 Q. You testified. And you have distinguished that 25 this was a safe house in Brooklyn and it wasn't the place in

6534 1 Queens which you and Siddig had rented to prepare a bomb, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. What had you been told by the FBI before the May 5 30 meeting about the facility, about the place? What had 6 you been told about the place that you would have the 7 meeting with Dr. Rashid and Siddig? 8 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 Q. Were you told anything by the FBI before you had 11 the meeting on May 30 with Dr. Rashid? 12 MR. McCARTHY: Yes or no, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Was he told anything about any 14 subject at all, ever? That is not what you want, correct? 15 MR. WASSERMAN: That is correct. I will rephrase 16 the question, your Honor. 17 Q. Were you told anything about the place that you 18 would be meeting Dr. Rashid at on May 30 by the FBI? 19 A. About the place, no, sir. 20 Q. They didn't tell you anything? 21 A. About the place, no, sir. 22 Q. They didn't tell you anything about the physical 23 nature of the premises, the layout or anything? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Tell you anything about who lived there?

6535 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. Tell you anything about who you might find to 3 occupy the premises? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. Did they tell you anything about Abu Ubaidah? 6 A. They didn't tell me anything about that, sir. 7 Q. You knew before from Siddig Ali that Abu Ubaidah 8 was one of the trainers in Pennsylvania, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that although Abu Ubaidah was a fine trainer 11 he was a wastrel with money, that he spent a lot of money, 12 yes? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And that that in fact was one of the problems 15 with the Bosnia project -- 16 MR. McCARTHY: Objection to form. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. It's a question, not an 18 essay. 19 Q. The FBI did not tell you that I might find Abu 20 Ubaidah at Rogers Avenue with Dr. Rashid? 21 A. No, they did not tell me that, sir. 22 Q. Did they tell you that they had entered the 23 premises on May 10 -- 24 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.

6536 1 MR. WASSERMAN: If I may. May I have a side bar? 2 THE COURT: Because it is totally irrelevant. 3 Move on. 4 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, may I have a side 5 bar? 6 THE COURT: You may not. 7 Q. You have testified that the FBI told you that you 8 should not wear a wire to this meeting, correct? 9 A. They told me do not take recording device with 10 you, or the briefcase, because they have electronic 11 equipment to frisk you, they probably will frisk you, so 12 don't take it with you. 13 Q. You are using the term they. You are referring 14 to Dr. Rashid and who else? 15 A. I am using term they, the FBI told me not to take 16 the briefcase with you, just in case that they, referring to 17 Dr. Rashid, they will frisk you or -- 18 Q. So they referred to Dr. Rashid? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. This warning from the FBI, basically they were 21 telling you to be concerned for your safety, correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And they were telling you in effect these guys 24 are bad, weren't they? 25 A. They didn't say they are bad, sir. They said

6537 1 these people have electronic equipment to frisk you, they 2 will frisk you, and your safety is priority here, sir. 3 Q. Who are these people? 4 A. Dr. Rashid and his colleagues, sir. 5 Q. Who are his colleagues, sir? 6 A. I don't know in that time, sir. 7 Q. The FBI did not tell you? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. So they warned you but didn't give you any 10 information, is that correct? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. Was that your customary dealings with them, where 13 they would tell you something but not give you information 14 concerning it? 15 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. In fact were you frisked on May 30? 18 A. In this meeting, no, sir. 19 Q. In fact was any electronic device used upon you 20 or your briefcase? 21 A. I don't know if they did or not, sir. 22 Q. One would suspect that if they did you would have 23 known, correct? 24 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained.

6538 1 Q. You debugged the place, is that correct? 2 A. I scanned the place to detect if there is bugging 3 devices or not. 4 Q. And when you did that, can you describe what you 5 did? 6 A. I have a transmission detector, and when there is 7 a transmission this detector will give you a whistle, and I 8 made the noise first to make them believe that it's working, 9 and I turned it off, and I made myself like sweeping the 10 walls. There is no response. Then I told them it's clean, 11 sir. 12 Q. Did you go through more than one room? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Describe what you did in terms of -- 15 A. I walked close to the walls in the main room we 16 were sitting at, at the edges of the doors, at the corners, 17 and I went to another, we will call it the front room, 18 small, tiny one, and I swept it, and there is another room 19 where is the fax machine on the floor. I swept it as well. 20 I tried to pick up the fax number. It wasn't written. So I 21 walked all over the place, sir. 22 Q. Was this in fact an operating piece of equipment 23 that you had? 24 A. It is functioning right, yes, sir. 25 Q. So that if in fact there was a bug you would have

6539 1 picked it up? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. If this machine worked we would pick up an 4 electronic bug? 5 A. It will pick up any wireless electronic bug if 6 it's on, but it was off, sir. 7 Q. Why did you have it off, sir? 8 A. Because if there is a really bug there I don't 9 want to pick it up and then screw up the FBI. 10 Q. And you had some suspicion that there might well 11 be a bug there, did you not? 12 A. Could be, sir. I don't know. 13 Q. In your tour of the apartment did you go to the 14 bathroom? 15 A. No, I don't recall going to the bathroom, sir. 16 Q. To check it out with the bugging device you 17 didn't go to the bathroom? 18 A. No, I don't think so, sir. 19 Q. Did you ever personally use the bathroom during 20 this meeting? 21 A. I am not sure, sir. 22 Q. It was a long meeting, wasn't it? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. It lasted two and a half hours or so, would that 25 be fair to say?

6540 1 A. Could be. 2 Q. And calling it a meeting, wouldn't it be more apt 3 to call it a bull session? You talked about a lot of 4 things, did you not? 5 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. You talked about a lot of things, did you not? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Can you estimate approximately how many topics 10 were covered during this meeting? 11 A. How many topics? 12 Q. Correct. 13 A. We talked about the United Nations. We talked 14 about the hand grenades. We talked about C-4. We talked 15 about that he knows people who robbed post offices and banks 16 from Atlanta, Georgia, all the way until New York, and they 17 reported to the imam. We talked that he had done previously 18 things that he left an evidence to mislead the FBI to make 19 them believe that the Jews did it, or something that effect. 20 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that among the approximately 21 50 to 75 topics that you covered was the Malcolm X movie, 22 the march on Washington, the death hand which killed Bruce 23 Lee, countersurveillance whereby Dr. Rashid knew where FBI 24 agents that were following him lived and knew their names? 25 MR. McCARTHY: Objection.

6541 1 Q. Weren't those among the topics you covered? 2 THE COURT: Were those the topics you covered. 3 A. I remember the topics about the surveillance, 4 that he knows their names and addresses, yes, I remember 5 that, sir. 6 Q. At the time you testified that his reaction to 7 your telling him about the United Nations, you testified 8 here, was to tell you to slow down and be very cautious, 9 correct? 10 A. He said that -- 11 Q. I am just asking if that is what you testified 12 to. 13 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. Do you want -- 15 MR. WASSERMAN: I am sorry, Judge. I want to 16 know whether he testified to that previously. 17 THE COURT: No, there is a transcript on that. 18 You can move on to another question. 19 Q. Did you discuss getting weapons from Dr. Rashid? 20 A. I am sorry, sir. 21 Q. Did you discuss getting weapons from him. 22 A. Siddig discussed some weapons, yes. 23 Q. What did he discuss? 24 A. That he needs some of this for protection. 25 Q. What is there, sir?

6542 1 A. This, he made a gesture like that, we need some 2 of this. 3 Q. You are making a finger like a pistol. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What did Dr. Rashid say? 6 A. I don't recall what he said, sir. 7 Q. Did you bring up the subject of weapons at all? 8 A. I may brought it, sir. 9 Q. Did you ask him for detonators or did you ask him 10 for hand grenades? 11 A. I asked him for hand grenades. I said we need 12 three of this to take this out of it. 13 Q. You said this, meaning the detonators? 14 A. Right, sir. 15 Q. Back in 1992 when you first met Dr. Rashid a year 16 earlier, you testified, you said that you asked him for 17 detonators and he offered you ready-made bombs, correct? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Between June of 1992 and this meeting on May 30 20 of 1993, you had not done anything about these ready-made 21 bombs, correct? 22 A. No, I did not, sir. 23 Q. Also you said back in June of '92 Dr. Rashid 24 offered to you machine guns, AK47's, Uzis for $900 apiece, 25 correct?

6543 1 A. That is in Abu Bakr meeting, yes, sir. 2 Q. That's what you say took place in the Abu Bakr 3 meeting, correct? 4 A. Correct, sir. 5 Q. At this meeting on May 30 do you refer him back 6 to what you say took place at Abu Bakr and do you say what 7 about those Uzis for $900? Did you ask him that? 8 A. No, I did not, sir. 9 Q. Did you refresh his recollection about the offer 10 of ready-made bombs for the same price of $900? 11 A. He already said -- 12 Q. Did you? Yes or no, sir. 13 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 14 THE COURT: Overruled. Did you ask him about the 15 ready-made bombs at that meeting? 16 A. No, I did not, sir. 17 Q. You testified that Dr. Rashid told you that the 18 UN was one of his projects. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you testified that he said that to you. 21 A. Yes, he did, sir, to both of us. 22 Q. To both of you. 23 Q. Did it occur to you at that time -- by the way, 24 you are sure that he says this to you and it is not Siddig 25 who tells you sometime later?

6544 1 A. No, sir. Mr. Siddig Ali told him -- we were 2 talking about the project and then he told him that we are 3 planning to bomb the United Nations. And he said gee, it 4 was one of my projects. That's what his response, sir. 5 Q. I see. Let me just find -- one moment, your 6 Honor. 7 Didn't Siddig tell you a day later, on May 31, at 8 CM 29, page 31, he thought about it before, to which you 9 replied, by God, and Siddig said yes -- 10 MR. McCARTHY: May I have a moment, your Honor, 11 to find what he is talking about? 12 MR. WASSERMAN: Page 31, CM 29. 13 Q. To which you replied by God, to which he said 14 yes, to which you replied ah and to which he said you don't 15 believe and he said no. Siddig says by God, I thought of a 16 that a long time ago, a long time ago. 17 MR. McCARTHY: Your Honor, could we note on the 18 transcript I thought of that a long time ago, a long time 19 ago, is in quotations? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. WASSERMAN: Fine. 22 THE COURT: Which is to say Siddig Ali is quoting 23 somebody else. 24 MR. McCARTHY: That is correct. 25 MR. WASSERMAN: Fine.

6545 1 Q. To which you then continue on a conversation -- 2 this takes place a day after, and you talk about that if 3 Rashid has been planning this, all he ever does is 4 contemplate, he never effectuates. Do you recall that 5 conversation with Siddig? 6 A. I am sorry, sir. 7 Q. Break it into bite-size pieces, OK. After Siddig 8 tells you a day later that Rashid had thought about it 9 before, referring to the United Nations -- 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. -- and to which you replied by God and expressed 12 disbelief that he had thought about it before -- 13 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. You then continued to talk about I don't think he 16 implements. Do you recall telling that to Siddig? 17 A. I don't understand what's implements means, sir. 18 Q. Carry out. 19 A. OK, right. 20 Q. And that you then said to Siddig, they 21 contemplate and contemplate and sit and contemplate and 22 contemplate and contemplate and contemplate. Do you follow 23 me or I am wrong? Too much contemplating, I mean. I mean 24 contemplating is warranted, I am not saying it is not 25 warranted, and caution is in order, I am not saying

6546 1 otherwise and all that, but when you sit and contemplate for 2 a week that's fine. Emad says Siddig, a month that's fine. 3 Hm, says Siddig, a year, two years, by God, three years, 4 what happened, man? Laughs. Are you following me? That's 5 not contemplated any more. 6 Do you recall telling that to Siddig? 7 A. I don't understand what's -- 8 Q. Contemplating is thinking. 9 A. OK. Yes, I may said that, sir. 10 Q. Your testimony is that it was Rashid who said 11 this at the meeting rather than Siddig telling you the 12 following day, telling you what he says Rashid said, 13 correct? 14 A. I am sorry, sir. 15 Q. OK. It is your testimony that Rashid told you 16 that he had long time ago thought about the UN. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And that when Siddig tells you about it the 19 following day, he is not telling you something new, he is 20 telling you something that you had heard the day before, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Let's assume that, either way, if in fact -- 24 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's just ask the

6547 1 question. 2 MR. WASSERMAN: If I may, Judge. 3 THE COURT: His testimony is what it was. You 4 are now telling him to assume it was something else. You 5 may ask a question without assuming something contrary to 6 his testimony. 7 MR. WASSERMAN: May I have a side bar? 8 THE COURT: No, you may not. 9 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, I must -- 10 THE COURT: You are telling me that you can't 11 continue? Then take your seat. 12 MR. WASSERMAN: I didn't say that. 13 THE COURT: Ask a question. 14 Q. When Siddig Ali told you on May 31 that Rashid 15 had thought about the UN a long time ago, your reply to 16 him -- 17 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. Misstates the 18 testimony. 19 MR. WASSERMAN: I am reading from CM 24, and if I 20 can have a stipulation -- what I read into the record, if I 21 may, your Honor, was from CM 29, page 31, continuing into 22 page 32. Can I have a stipulation from Mr. McCarthy that I 23 read accurately -- 24 MR. McCARTHY: Absolutely. 25 MR. WASSERMAN: Thank you.

6548 1 Q. Assuming that Dr. Rashid had this idea before and 2 you became aware of that, in fact at this meeting you said 3 that, did you say to him can you tell us what plans you have 4 made? 5 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 6 Q. Did you ask him what plans have you made? 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 A. No, I did not ask him, sir. 9 Q. Did you ask him, can we join forces in this 10 project? Did you ask him that? 11 A. No, sir, I did not. 12 Q. Did you say to him, Dr. Rashid, do you have any 13 ingredients for us? Did you ask him that? Yes or no. 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And he said he would check out the hand grenades, 16 is that correct? 17 A. The hand grenades, and if it's not, the C-4's, 18 sir. 19 Q. Did he tell you that he had anything on hand for 20 you? 21 A. No, sir, because the people -- no, sir. 22 Q. You wanted to continue. I will let you continue. 23 Go ahead. 24 A. Because the people who had the C-4 in jail, and 25 it's hard to get to them now, sir.

6549 1 Q. Did he offer you any ideas or things that might 2 help your project for the United Nations? 3 A. Yes, he did, sir. 4 Q. What did he offer, sir? 5 A. He said that you got to leave evidence to mislead 6 the FBI when they come to investigate the place of the 7 bombing or the place of the operation, to make it looks like 8 either the Jews did it or somebody else. 9 Q. The somebody else, I believe, was the Ku Klux 10 Klan, was it not? 11 A. I don't remember this, sir. 12 Q. We will come back to that in a moment. Let me 13 just continue. Did he tell you anything about his plan for 14 the United Nations? 15 A. No, sir. He said only it was one of my projects, 16 sir. 17 Q. One of his projects. Did he tell you that he had 18 taken any steps towards carrying out this project? 19 A. He didn't say, sir. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25

6550 1 Q. Did he offer to provide you with any people to 2 help you? 3 Did he offer, for example, Abu Ubaidah to help 4 you? 5 A. He offered, if I recollect right, he said, sir, 6 that he have two bomb builders just came out of jail and 7 they are waiting for him to open the door for them to come 8 on board, sir. 9 Q. So he had two bomb builders for you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Correct? 12 A. That's right, sir. 13 Q. OK. Did he ever make those bomb builders 14 available to you before the arrests took place in this case? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. This meeting takes place on May 30, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Between May 30 and when the arrests take place, 19 over three weeks later, did he give you anything? 20 A. No, he did not, sir. 21 Q. No hand grenades? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. No C-4s? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. No bomb builders?

6551 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. No machine guns? 3 A. No, sir. 4 Q. No ready-made bombs for $900, nothing, correct? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. No, nothing. 7 Did he offer you any marshal arts equipment to 8 help your effort? 9 A. I don't think so, sir. 10 Q. Did he offer you any knives or swords? 11 Offer you any blow guns? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. Any crossbows? 14 A. No, sir. 15 Q. Did he offer you any of the equipment from 16 Pennsylvania, did he offer you any Kalishnikovs? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. Did he offer you any cannon fuse? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Did he offer you any electric matches? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Any exploding targets? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. You know exploding targets have gun powder in 25 them, correct?

6552 1 A. It may, sir, I don't know. 2 Q. Sir, you were in the armed forces of Egypt for a 3 long time, correct? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. You were in special forces, correct? 6 A. In a time, yes, sir. 7 Q. And you never had occasion to have any contact 8 with what's called an exploding target? 9 A. To be honest, I don't understand what does that 10 mean in my mind. 11 Q. OK. That is a target that explodes because it 12 has some gun powder in it. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. So you did have some experience with it? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. OK. Now, none of these things was offered to you 17 by Rashid, was it? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. In fact, cannon fuse is something that you 20 testified about that you had bought on Canal Street, and I 21 believe you testified that you showed it to Sayyid Nosair, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Because in your mind cannon fuse was something 25 that could be used with a bomb, correct?

6553 1 A. That's what Mr. Sayyid Nosair told me, sir. 2 Q. Now, cannon fuse is not detonator fuse, do you 3 know that? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Do you know the difference? 6 A. Yes, I know the difference. 7 Q. OK. Cannon fuse is also known by the name "hobby 8 fuse," correct? 9 A. I don't know that, sir. 10 Q. When you bought it on the Canal Street, did you 11 need a license to buy it? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. You bought it from a store you testified, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. It was sold openly over the counter, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did Rashid offer to -- withdrawn. 19 Are you aware that cannon fuse might have been 20 used to set off the Trade Center bomb? 21 A. Could be. 22 Q. Could be. 23 So Rashid offered you nothing that day, correct? 24 I mean he offered you none of these items that I 25 have said that might help you out, correct?

6554 1 A. No, sir. 2 Q. So if you say that it could be that cannon fuse 3 could set off a Trade Center bomb, which was a big bomb, and 4 Rashid had cannon fuse, he could have helped you out by 5 offering to give it to you, correct? 6 A. I don't know, sir. 7 Q. Well, he didn't offer it, did he? 8 A. No, he did not, sir. 9 Q. OK. When you walked out of that meeting, you 10 walked out without anything in your hands, correct? 11 No grenades, correct? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. But Siddig Ali had told you before that meeting 14 that there were two grenades available, correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Balls as it were, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Where were the balls? 19 A. I don't know, sir. 20 Q. Would that have been the first time that Siddig 21 Ali gave you some misinformation? 22 A. I don't know if it's misinformation or not, sir. 23 Q. Well -- 24 A. Because -- 25 Q. -- between the time that he told you and your

6555 1 walking out of the meeting with a person who was supposed to 2 have it, did you get the balls? 3 A. No, I did not get it, sir. 4 Q. Between the time of that meeting and the time of 5 the arrests, three weeks later, did you get the balls? 6 A. He promised me -- 7 Q. Sir -- 8 A. OK. I'm sorry. 9 Q. I am just asking you a question. Yes or no. 10 A. No, I did not, sir. 11 Q. Would it be fair to say that when Siddig Ali told 12 you that Rashid had two balls available for you, that that 13 was misinformation? Would that be fair to say? 14 A. No, it's not fair to say, sir. 15 Q. Not fair to say, OK. 16 So that it would be fairer to say that Rashid had 17 the balls, but chose not to give them to you, would that be 18 fairer to say? 19 A. I cannot speculate for what Mr. Rashid did, sir. 20 Q. But what we can know for certain is that you 21 never received anything, correct? 22 A. No, I did not, sir. 23 Q. Correct. 24 When you entered that building that day to meet 25 with Rashid on May 30, did you notice name tags on the

6556 1 mailboxes by any chance? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. You didn't notice that next to the mailbox for 4 the place that you went to was the name Hampton-El/Ubaidah? 5 A. I did not look at mailboxes, sir. 6 Q. When you went through that apartment to debug it, 7 did you notice the children's toys in one of the rooms? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. And did you notice the food and the dishes in the 10 kitchen? 11 A. No, sir. 12 Q. And the plants? 13 A. I'm sorry, sir? 14 Q. And the plants in the apartment? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. This was a safe house, though, you say? 17 A. That's what I understand, sir. 18 Q. Now, when you say "you understand," your basis 19 for your information -- since the FBI told you nothing, what 20 was the basis for your information? 21 A. Mr. Siddig Ali, sir. 22 Q. Told you that it was a safe house? 23 A. Told me that he bought this place for to conduct 24 his things and to be away, and he paid a lot of money for 25 it, sir.

6557 1 Q. OK. When he told you that he paid a lot of money 2 for it, he was talking about that money was wasted, correct? 3 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. Your Honor, can we get 4 clarification of who the "he" is. 5 MR. WASSERMAN: Siddig. 6 MR. McCARTHY: The "he" who paid a lot of money. 7 A. I don't know what he -- 8 Q. I'm sorry. If I may. 9 A. I'm sorry. 10 Q. The "he" -- the statement by Siddig would have 11 been to the effect that money was wasted by Rashid. 12 A. The statement money being wasted, it was on the 13 outfits, the military outfits they bought for the 14 Pennsylvania camp training. But he did not say -- excuse 15 me, sir -- he did not say that the money being spent for 16 purchasing this place, he did not mention to me it's wasted 17 or not, sir. 18 Q. Excuse me. I didn't hear what you said about the 19 Pennsylvania place there. 20 A. Mr. Siddig Ali, sir, complained about money being 21 wasted in Pennsylvania outfits. They bought things for X 22 amount of money; they bought boots, overalls, things like 23 that. They was complaining about that, that they shouldn't 24 spend that kind of money on these things. 25 Q. Would it be fair to say --

6558 1 MR. McCARTHY: Your Honor I'm sorry. If I may, 2 can we go back to straighten out who the "he" was in the 3 other answer. 4 THE COURT: Who was it Siddig Ali said paid the 5 money for the Rogers Avenue location? 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't 7 understand. 8 THE COURT: Who did Siddig Ali say had paid the 9 money for the location on Rogers Avenue? 10 THE WITNESS: Dr. Rashid, sir. 11 Q. Did Siddig Ali tell you that Ubaidah lived at the 12 place? 13 A. No, he did not tell me that, sir. 14 Q. Did he tell you that Ubaidah and -- withdrawn. 15 After the May 30 meeting, you had another meeting 16 with Rashid on June 16, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Between that meeting on May 30 and the meeting on 19 June 16, didn't you tell Siddig Ali that you thought that 20 Rashid doesn't implement, that he won't come through? 21 A. I may said that, yes, sir. 22 Q. In response, didn't Siddig tell you -- didn't he 23 tell you how Rashid was supposed to get him into Bosnia and 24 failed? 25 A. It was a lot of talk about going to Bosnia and

6559 1 going to Philippines and getting fake passports to go to 2 these places, sir. 3 Q. I think Siddig was telling you, was he not, that 4 because Rashid had promised to get him to Bosnia that Siddig 5 had quit his job to train to go to Bosnia, correct? 6 A. It was part of the plan, yes, sir. 7 Q. And that Rashid kept putting him off -- "next 8 month, next month, next month, next month" -- correct? 9 A. Something to that effect, yes, sir. 10 Q. And that in fact Siddig had his wife pack up, get 11 ready, but no Bosnia, correct? Yes or no. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. If you -- OK. 14 In fact, Siddig told you that to train for Bosnia 15 he had quit his job as a translator where he was making 16 $15,000 a month? 17 A. Not specifically for Bosnia, sir. 18 Q. Didn't he tell you that in one month he made 19 about $15,000? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And that was referring to translating? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And that he quit his translating job to train for 24 Bosnia? 25 MR. McCARTHY: Objection.

6560 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Didn't Siddig Ali tell you after he told you that 3 he made in one month about $15,000 -- I'm reading from CM29, 4 page 33. 5 MR. McCARTHY: Can I have a moment, your Honor. 6 MR. WASSERMAN: It is on page 33. 7 Q. Didn't he tell you: Yes, by God, then, 8 (unintelligible) Abdou Rashid I had too much work -- 9 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Which tab, Mr. Wasserman? 11 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, pardon me for not 12 telling you. 13 THE COURT: You said it, I didn't hear you. 14 MR. WASSERMAN: J, your Honor. I'm sorry, your 15 Honor. Page 33, J. 16 MR. McCARTHY: My objection is under Rule 801. 17 THE COURT: That is overruled. 18 MR. McCARTHY: And also scope. 19 THE COURT: That's overruled, too. 20 MR. WASSERMAN: Thank you, your Honor. 21 Q. Did you not say -- did Siddig not say to you: 22 Yes, by God (unintelligible) Abdou Rashid I had too much 23 work. I went and I told them I will do the work until 24 November, I will quit in November 30 in 11/30 I can, 25 nothing, nothing else because of our trip.

6561 1 You responded: Huh. 2 Siddig said: I cannot wait. 3 You said: Abdou Rashid told you that this is the 4 best suitable time. 5 Siddig says: I told him send me inside fast. 6 And it goes on. 7 Did you believe that Siddig had quit a $15,000 a 8 month job to go to Bosnia? 9 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Did Siddig, do you know whether in fact he had a 12 job which paid him $15,000 a month as a translator? 13 A. I know what he told me, sir. 14 Q. You only know what he told you? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Had you ever seen the inside of his apartment? 17 A. Mr. Siddig? 18 Q. Yes, sir. 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Based upon that, you saw his furnishings, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. His equipment, whatever he would have, correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. On the basis of those items, would you say that

6562 1 those items were costly items or not costly items? 2 A. It was regular items. 3 Q. Would you say that the apartment was furnished 4 and provided with that which would relate to a $15,000 a 5 month income? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. Siddig Ali -- withdrawn. 8 After the meeting on May 30, didn't you tell 9 Siddig Ali: Your Abdou Rashid has disappointed me? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Didn't Siddig respond in kind by saying to you: 12 He turned out to be a dud? 13 A. I'm sorry, sir? 14 Q. He turned out to be a dud. D-U-D, dud. 15 A. What does that mean, sir? 16 Q. A dud is something that doesn't explode. It's a 17 shell or whatever that doesn't explode. A nothing would be 18 another way of translating it. 19 A. I'm not sure, sir. 20 Q. Didn't Siddig tell I that he failed in the 21 implementation of the task, a complete failure. This is not 22 a joke, but he is a failure when it comes to important 23 matters. Didn't he tell you that? 24 A. He may said that, yes, sir. 25 Q. At the time that he tells you this, do you not

6563 1 have a discussion with him about getting passports from 2 Rashid? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. And does not that discussion in fact relate to a 5 discussion about passports that took place at the meeting on 6 May 30? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And Rashid had said that he has more than one, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And he knew people who could get passports, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And you guys -- I'm sorry. You and Siddig 15 expressed interest in getting a passport, correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And this continues in the sense when you discuss 18 with Siddig after the May 30 meeting getting a passport from 19 Rashid, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. You talk amongst yourselves, and you tell him: 22 Let's get him the pictures and $300 and we'll get passports, 23 correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. In fact, you tell Siddig: Make it so that we'll

6564 1 see him at the same time, correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. After that conversation Siddig a few days later 4 tells you: Give me the money and the pictures and I'll go 5 to him and get the passports? 6 A. He may said that, yes, sir. 7 MR. WASSERMAN: M in the binder, your Honor. I'm 8 reading at the bottom of page 9, CM35, dated June 8. I'm 9 sorry. I will start at the middle of the page. 10 Q. Starting from the bottom: It is possible, says 11 Siddig, AMM. You also try to give me the money if you 12 wish, if you wish, I mean, and the photos. 13 You say: May God facilitate it. Correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now, that takes place on June 8, approximately a 16 week after your meeting with Rashid. 17 You then have a conversation with Siddig before 18 you meet with Rashid on June 16, and in this conversation 19 you tell him: We're going to ask him for two things at the 20 meeting on June 16, balls, passports, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. This is right before you go meet with him and 23 you're saying we're going to ask him for balls and we're 24 going ask him for passports, two things, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.

6565 1 Q. Now, before that conversation between the May 30 2 meeting and the June 16 meeting, don't you take charge to 3 make sure that Siddig Ali stays in touch with Rashid? 4 Don't you nudge him in a sense? Call him -- 5 MR. McCARTHY: Objection to the form of the 6 question. 7 MR. WASSERMAN: The form of "nudge"? Too 8 persistent? 9 THE COURT: No -- 10 MR. WASSERMAN: Withdrawn. 11 THE COURT: It's the number of questions. 12 MR. WASSERMAN: The number of questions? 13 THE COURT: Not necessarily the particular words. 14 Q. Let me try it this way: On May 30, after your 15 meeting with Rashid, you say to Siddig: Is Rashid going to 16 call you or you him? And Siddig says: He said he'll call 17 if there's anything. 18 Do you recall that? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. I believe it is the following day -- I'm sorry. 21 On June 3, in CM26, you ask him: Did Rashid call? Call 22 him. Just let him know you are persistent. 23 Do you recall saying that to Siddig? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And on June 8 you ask Siddig: Do you expect that

6566 1 Abu Rashid will give you something tomorrow? 2 And Siddig says: I do not know at all. I do not 3 think so. 4 Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And on June 12, in CM36, you ask Siddig if there 7 is any news from Rashid, and he tells you that Rashid is 8 going to the Philippines, do you recall that? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. OK. In fact, at the time that he tells you that 11 Rashid is going to the Philippines, Siddig says: I think 12 I'm going to go there, too. Do you remember that? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. When he said that, do you remember saying to him: 15 Don't leave me here by myself? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Now, when you were talking with Siddig during the 18 period of time between -- withdrawn. 19 You planned, did you not, for not getting the 20 detonators from Rashid? In other words, you came up with an 21 alternate plan if you could not get grenades from Rashid, 22 correct? 23 A. I -- 24 Q. If you're having trouble -- go ahead. Answer the 25 question.

6567 1 A. Sir, I asked him: If you could not get the hand 2 grenades, you could get me a block of C-4 and I will divide 3 it to -- 4 Q. This takes place at your meeting on June 16, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. I'm referring to the period of time between May 8 30, your second meeting with him, and June 16, which is your 9 third and last meeting, did you not plan what to do if 10 Rashid didn't give you anything, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And the alternate that you came up with that you 13 told Siddig about and the others in the safe house was 14 condensers, correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Incidentally, at the time that you visit Rashid 17 in Brooklyn on May 30, at that time you have already rented 18 with Siddig the garage in Queens that is the safe house with 19 your plan to build the bomb, correct? 20 A. I -- 21 Q. You've rented it? 22 A. No, sir, the FBI and Siddig. I did not pay 23 anything. 24 Q. OK. But the rent had been paid, the facility 25 taken, and it was now occupied and being used, correct?

6568 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. OK. Incidentally, among the things that Rashid 3 did not offer to you, did he ever say to you: "Listen. You 4 know, I got the safe house in Brooklyn. We got the same 5 project of bombing the UN, why not do your work here?" 6 Did he say that to you? 7 A. Who, sir? 8 Q. Rashid. 9 A. No, he did not, sir. 10 Q. And you've testified, did you not, that the room 11 that you were in was unoccupied, correct? 12 MR. McCARTHY: Which room? 13 Q. The room that you had the conversation with 14 Rashid and Siddig Ali on May 30. 15 A. I didn't see beds. I didn't see furniture, sir. 16 Q. OK. Plants and mattress don't count? 17 A. I recall there is a mattress, yes, sir. 18 Q. Curtains? 19 A. It could be, yes, sir. 20 Q. That would be not a bad room, right, to get to 21 work in, yes? 22 A. What kind of work, sir? 23 Q. Well, the work that you were involved in, which 24 was building the bomb. It was a safe house, yes? That's 25 what you've testified to, correct?

6569 1 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. Your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: Could you do one question at a time. 3 MR. WASSERMAN: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. 5 Q. Mr. Salem -- 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. -- the room that you had the conversation in with 8 Rashid and Siddig, was, in your testimony, unoccupied by 9 furniture, etc., etc., correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Perhaps an ideal room to build a bomb in, yes? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. And, sir, why not? 14 A. There is no bugging devices by the FBI, sir. 15 Q. Other than that, it was perfect? 16 A. I don't think so, sir. 17 Q. Well, let me ask you a question: The bugging 18 devices are part of the plan that you have with the FBI so 19 that whatever takes place in Queens is monitored, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. So the safe house in Queens has cameras and bugs 22 galore, correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. You don't know whether the place that Rashid has 25 in Brooklyn has any bugs, correct?

6570 1 A. Not to my knowledge, sir. 2 Q. Well, but you don't have your machine on so that 3 you could find out and he would then know, correct, when you 4 do your -- 5 A. I did not -- I'm sorry, sir. Go ahead. 6 Q. When you do your debugging, it's off, correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. That way if there are bugs planted by the FBI, 9 Rashid would not know, correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Isn't the key question here Rashid did not 12 offer -- 13 THE COURT: Sustained, Mr. Wasserman. 14 MR. WASSERMAN: Yes, sir? 15 THE COURT: "Wasn't the key question here" is not 16 an appropriate question. Ask it another way. 17 MR. WASSERMAN: Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did Rashid offer the use of the place that you 19 met with him at on Rogers Avenue to you for the purpose of 20 building a bomb? 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. Now, your third and last meeting with Rashid took 23 place on June 16 at the Farooq mosque, yes? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. When you ran into Dr. Rashid, it was the time for

6571 1 prayer or near the time for prayer, correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now, didn't he tell you from the get-go, from the 4 beginning of your conversation with him: I go, I'm tired of 5 this place. I'm going to the Philippines? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. In fact, you picked up on this and said to him: 8 Well, that sounds like a good idea. I would like to go as 9 well, correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. You described your background in the military in 12 Egypt, correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And he showed you his wound from Afghanistan, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. And he told you that blood smells better than 18 musk if you have been wounded in a cause for Allah, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And he told you that if you die as a martyr, you 21 get 72 wives when you go to heaven, correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And that each of these wives is more beautiful 24 than any woman on earth, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.

6572 1 Q. Now, after this conversation, did you and Siddig 2 not have a conversation with Rashid about obtaining the two 3 things that you had discussed with Siddig before this 4 meeting, passports and grenades? 5 A. I'm sorry, sir. I'm lost a little bit here. 6 Q. OK. After this discussion did you then with 7 Siddig discuss getting grenades and passports from him? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And he said he would check into it and get back 10 to you, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. In fact, that's what he told you after the May 30 13 meeting, he would check into it and get back to you, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. When you first met him in June of '92, you say he 17 said that he would check into it and get back to you, that 18 was about buying the pistol, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. The pistol and the ready-made bombs 20 and the detonators, sir. 21 Q. OK. So from June '92 he's checking in and you're 22 making sure that you find out from him whether he has any of 23 these things, correct? 24 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 25 A. Yes, sir.

6573 1 Q. So far as we stand here on June 16, in Brooklyn 2 in 1993, after meeting with him for over a year -- 3 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 4 THE COURT: Whatever number of times over 5 whatever period of time. Go ahead. 6 MR. WASSERMAN: I'm sorry, Judge. I'm -- 7 THE COURT: The suggestion was that he was a 8 meeting with him over a year. 9 Q. After all of that, you still have nothing in your 10 hands, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And he's still checking into it, correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. At the end of this meeting, you reported back to 15 the FBI about the meeting, correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. You described that you had asked Rashid for what 18 you've just testified to, and you described that to an 19 agent, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Didn't you tell the agent: Yup, I got his ass. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And to you getting his ass meant that you had him 24 on tape saying that he would check into it, correct? 25 A. Not only that, sir. I got him on tape saying all

6574 1 the previous things we talked about, the C-4, the hand 2 grenades, that he had done things before and he left 3 evidence to mislead the investigators -- 4 Q. Sir, at the meeting on June 16 you tell the FBI 5 that you have had a conversation with Rashid and he's going 6 to check into getting grenades or C-4, correct? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And you then tell them: Yup, I got his ass, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. OK. That is very specific to your conversation 12 with him that evening, correct? 13 A. I'm sorry, sir? 14 Q. The "Yup, I got his ass" refers to that he's 15 going to check into getting you C-4 or grenades, correct? 16 A. That I got that on tape, sir? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. In fact, that is what you do, you get people to 20 say things on tape, and that's part of your job, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. But, in fact, you had not gotten anything from 23 him other than, "I'll check into it," correct, as far as the 24 grenades and the C-4, the things you were asking him for, 25 correct?

6575 1 A. No. He did not give me C-4 or hand grenades, 2 sir. 3 Q. Right. Did he offer you any substitutes? 4 Did he come back do you and say, "Emad, I'm so 5 sorry. I can't get you grenades, I can't get you C-4." 6 He told you that, right? 7 A. No, sir. He told me, the last thing on the 8 phone: "I will do my best. Don't tell me please. It's a 9 duty." 10 Q. Now, he tells you that on June 23, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. OK. So if we take together your meeting with him 13 in 1992, your two meetings with him in '93 and this phone 14 conversation, he's still telling you the same thing? 15 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 16 Q. He's still telling you, is he not, on June 23: 17 I'll look into it, I've got flyers out? 18 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. All right. Did he offer you any substitutes for 21 what he failed to get for you? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Did he offer you gun powder? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Did he offer you anything that might substitute

6576 1 for the things that you were asking him for? 2 A. The only things, sir, when I asked him for 3 detonators to be taken out of the hand grenades, he said: 4 "Why should we put you in jeopardy if we can bring it 5 without going through this process?" 6 And I said: "It will be a good idea, sir." 7 Q. This conversation was on May 30, correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. So between May 30 and June 23 -- or June 24, when 10 the arrests went down -- did he get you detonators? 11 A. No, he did not, sir. 12 Q. So even the substitute that he suggested, which 13 would be less dangerous than grenades, you never got that? 14 A. No, I did not, sir. 15 Q. Did it not strike you as somewhat strange that 16 when you asked him, you said, for detonators in '92 and he 17 offers you ready-made bombs, that you come back a year later 18 and you ask him for grenades, which are in effect ready-made 19 bombs -- 20 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 21 Q. -- and he says to you -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 MR. WASSERMAN: It was going to end very quickly. 24 THE COURT: It doesn't have to get to the end. 25 Why don't you reframe the question.

6577 1 MR. WASSERMAN: Yes, Judge. 2 Q. In '93, when you meet him on May 30, you ask him 3 for hand grenades. Did Siddig Ali tell you that hand 4 grenades were used in Pennsylvania? 5 A. I believe, yes, sir. 6 Q. Is that the reason that you asked for hand 7 grenades? 8 A. No, sir. 9 Q. Well, in '92 you said that you asked Rashid for 10 detonators, and he told you, "Why do you need detonators 11 when I can get you ready-made bombs?" Correct? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. A year later you ask him for hand grenades and he 14 tells you, "Why hand grenades? Better detonators." 15 Correct? 16 A. I'm sorry, sir? 17 Q. He tells you, "Why hand grenades if you can get 18 detonators?" Correct? 19 A. That's not what he said, sir. 20 Q. Well, he said it was dangerous. Didn't he ask 21 you if it was dangerous, and didn't he say it could be a 22 substitute to get detonators instead of hand grenades? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. OK. But he never gave you detonators? 25 A. No, he did not, sir.

6578 1 Q. Did he even give you a firecracker? 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. Didn't Siddig tell you that maybe you should go 4 on Canal Street and buy the M80 firecracker? 5 A. Siddig? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. He did not tell me that, sir. 8 Q. He never told you that? 9 A. No, he did not, sir. 10 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, may I have a moment. 11 (Pause) 12 MR. WASSERMAN: I will have to come back to that, 13 your Honor. 14 Q. Didn't you say to Siddig Ali on June 13 -- or 15 rather, didn't he say to you on June 13, I'm reading from 16 CM37, it's under O in the binder, your Honor. 17 At the bottom of page 13 -- 18 MR. McCARTHY: May I just have a moment. 19 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, it is the third page 20 in under that tab. 21 MR. McCARTHY: I have no objection. 22 THE COURT: Go ahead. 23 Q. Didn't Siddig say to you -- I'll start from: 24 Rashid says there is something called, and things like that. 25 It's not the hand grenade. It's a different thing. You

6579 1 know what it's called. 2 And you say: Is it the detonator? 3 Siddig says: You said 86, or I don't know what. 4 And you say: The M80. 5 And Siddig says: The M80, yes. 6 And you say: The M80, yes. The M80 is sold on 7 Canal Street. It's no problem. 8 Siddig says: Yes. 9 You say: No, it's me also that -- 10 Siddig says: Is it sold on Canal Street? 11 You say: Yes. 12 Siddig says: Is it the same thing? 13 You say: Yes. 14 Siddig says: Will it work using that? 15 You say: Yes. 16 Siddig says: Can we buy it? 17 You say: It is possible. 18 Siddig says: So we do not need to go to him. 19 You say: It is possible, and it is also possible 20 to make all of them detonators. And it's possible to make 21 all of them condensers. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. This is Siddig telling you about the M80 24 firecracker, correct? 25 MR. McCARTHY: Objection.

6580 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 MR. WASSERMAN: Why? Seriously, I have no idea. 3 THE COURT: Because it's him telling Siddig about 4 the M80 firecracker, but go ahead. 5 MR. WASSERMAN: Judge, that's not what I read. 6 It's Siddig who brings it up. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman -- 8 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, if -- 9 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman, may I see you at the 10 side? 11 MR. WASSERMAN: Yes, sir. 12 THE COURT: Now you'll get your side bar. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

6581 1 (At the side bar) 2 THE COURT: Your question asked whether it wasn't 3 Siddig who had told him about the M80. 4 MR. WASSERMAN: Correct. 5 THE COURT: Siddig raised the question of 6 numbers. He was the one who volunteered that the correct 7 name was M80. He was the one who then described where it 8 could be found. The only person doing the describing is the 9 witness, not Siddig. 10 MR. WASSERMAN: Judge, can I -- 11 THE COURT: Also, don't argue with me in front of 12 the jury, do you understand that? 13 MR. WASSERMAN: Got it. 14 THE COURT: Go on and ask a question. 15 MR. WASSERMAN: May I just clarify for the 16 record. Before Emad names the M80, Siddig has a different 17 term for it. He calls it the 86, but he's referring to the 18 item -- 19 THE COURT: Mr. Wasserman, your question was 20 misleading for the reason that I stated. Hopefully, you 21 will get the transcript of this, read it, and be able to 22 understand why it was misleading, but I would like you to 23 move on to something else. 24 MR. WASSERMAN: OK. 25 THE COURT: Thank you.

6582 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to 3 take a short break. Please leave your notes and other 4 materials behind. Please don't discuss the case. We will 5 resume in a few minutes. 6 (The jury was excused) 7 THE COURT: You may step down. 8 (Witness excused) 9 (Recess) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

6583 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Before we start, Mr. Jacobs, I gather 3 you have to go out, is that right? 4 MR. JACOBS: I have to go to the Court of Appeals 5 at 12:15, so I will leave here at 12:10. They wouldn't go 6 till 12:30. At any rate, Mr. Saleh will consent. Mr. 7 Bernstein will fill in. 8 THE COURT: Is that satisfactory, Mr. Saleh? 9 DEFENDANT MOHAMMED SALEH: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Thank you very much. 11 EMAD SALEM, resumed. 12 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Wasserman. 13 MR. WASSERMAN: Thank you, Judge. 14 BY MR. WASSERMAN: 15 Q. Just going back for a moment to early May when 16 Siddig Ali tells you that the two hand grenades are ready 17 for you to pick up, doesn't he tell you after saying to you 18 we made available two of these things -- 19 MR. SERRA: Your Honor, I am sorry. 20 THE COURT: Would you stop for a moment. There 21 is a problem with the Spanish translation. 22 MR. WASSERMAN: Mr. McCarthy, it is CM 14, page 23 11, under E. 24 THE COURT: Go ahead. 25 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, it is under E in the

6584 1 binder. It is page 11 of CM 14. It is the first page in 2 under the tab E. 3 Q. After Siddig Ali told you that we made available 4 two of these things, referring to balls, you say two balls, 5 they are called two balls, and he says yeah, balls, but they 6 told me about what they call, hm, M60. Do you recall his 7 telling you that? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. And do you recall that he tells you that it's 10 something 86, and you say 86 miles? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And then he says to you I don't know, something 13 like this. And then he says to you, so he tells you two 14 will do the same job, not the same known balls, the round 15 one, and you say yeah. Siddig says no -- 16 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. Object to the word 17 same. It's not in the transcript. 18 MR. WASSERMAN: I am sorry, Mr. McCarthy, fourth 19 line up doesn't. 20 MR. McCARTHY: You said same other type, next to 21 the last attribution. The word same is not in there. 22 THE COURT: It is only once, not twice, Mr. 23 Wasserman. 24 Q. He says to you yeah, what is inside? So he tells 25 you two will do the same job, not the same known balls, the

6585 1 round one. You say yeah. Siddig says no, it is the other 2 type but it does the same job, and you say no, explain it to 3 me a little bit. Then Siddig says he tells you they do the 4 same job, and you say fine. 5 You understood his saying to you the M60 was a 6 firecracker, correct? 7 A. Ness. 8 Q. Isn't the M60 the same as the M80? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Isn't the M80 something you bought on Canal 11 Street? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And the M80 is a firecracker, correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. When Siddig Ali tells you later on about using an 16 M80 as a substitute, he is referring to a firecracker, 17 correct? 18 A. M80 firecrackers, yes, sir. 19 Q. And that is something that you bought on Canal 20 Street, correct? 21 A. Correct, sir. 22 Q. So at the same time back in early May that he is 23 telling you the two grenades are ready, he is saying to you 24 what about using firecrackers instead. 25 MR. McCARTHY: Objection.

6586 1 Q. He is saying what about using the M80. 2 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. Where? 3 Q. He says M60 but you took that to be 80. 4 MR. McCARTHY: Objection. 5 Q. Did you take the M60 to be M80? 6 MR. McCARTHY: Objection, asked and answered. 7 THE COURT: I will let him answer it. 8 Q. Did you take the M60 that Siddig referred to to 9 be a confused reference to the M80 firecracker? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. What did you take him to mean? 12 A. There is two types of hand grenades, round ones 13 and oval, like an egg, ones. The oval ones are I referred 14 it 86 miles. That's how we learned it in the army. He 15 refer to the round ones, which is, he called it M60. And I 16 told him since Dr. Rashid -- he told me Dr. Rashid told him 17 that the M60 could do the same thing, and I told him fine, 18 if that's what it is, OK. 19 Q. So the M60 is an alternative hand grenade, is 20 that right? It is a form of hand grenade? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. But the M80 is a firecracker, correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And it is the M80 that you have the last 25 conversation with, if you may go back to that, on CM 37,

6587 1 page 13 -- that's in O -- where he says the M80, yes? And 2 you say the M80, yes, the M80 is sold on Canal Street, it's 3 no problem. So at that time you are talking about the 4 firecracker on Canal Street, correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. That is already now in the middle of June you are 7 talking about buying a firecracker on Canal Street, correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Just for one moment going back to your meeting in 10 Rogers Avenue on May 30 with Rashid and Siddig, did Rashid 11 take you on a tour of the downstairs at all? Did he show 12 you the converted store front on the first floor? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. He never showed you any martial arts equipment or 15 anything like that? 16 A. No, sir. 17 Q. When Siddig told you that Rashid was going to the 18 Philippines, did he also tell you that Rashid had been to an 19 Islamic conference in May, in the Philippines? 20 A. I don't recall he mentioned that. He may said it 21 but I don't recall it now, sir. 22 MR. WASSERMAN: Your Honor, do you wish me to 23 refresh his recollection or just read from the transcript? 24 THE COURT: You can read it if it's there. 25 MR. WASSERMAN: Mr. McCarthy, it is under O CM

6588 1 37. Your Honor, it is page 9, the first page in after the 2 insert of O. 3 Q. Middle of the page Siddig says hm, Abdul Rashid 4 went to the Philippines. You say yes? Siddig says while 5 Saudi Arabia was holding a very large conference there. So 6 for sure Abdul Rashid wa