blackened and antiqued hard

8/10/2019 Blackened and Antiqued Hard..

1/6

(2 Pages)

12

Blackened and antiqued hardware! How does this work?

Leif S

Posted 19 January 2004 - 10:31 AM

In the mineral world ferric minerals are normally rust colored,some darker than others (up to dark chocolate),and ferrous minerals normally gray-green to gray-greenish black. Both can sometimes appear totally black.

Rust is ferric hydroxide, Fe(OH)3, a result of oxidicing massive iron. Ferrous iron is a result of reduction.

The reason this mix of yours reacts so fast is that the H-peroxide reacts with the vinegar to create a weak basethat oxidices the iron. This reaction also produces water, which speeds up the rusting process.

Now comes the tricky bit, why does it turns black? It could be as simple as that boiling reduces ferric iron into

ferrous iron. It could also be that the boiling turns the hydroxides into oxides with a little denser stucture whichmake them appear black. It could even be both.

Tell me, if you don't coat with ren wax does your pieces rust?"Damnation! I need a flagon of wine!"-King Conan of Aquilonia

http://forge.leifern.com (http://forge.leifern.com)

Robert Hatcher


I dont have anything to add, but Im taking notes. this is good stuff thanks guys! [notworthy]

Brian Vanspeybroeck

Posted 22 January 2004 - 05:25 PM

And thanks for the chemists version of why it turns black....the whole rust thing fascinates me. :cool:

Thanks for your contribution.

Brian

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."- Lyle E. Schaller

http://home.mchsi.co..._Edged_Art.html (http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSpeybroeck_Edged_Art.html)

Brian Vanspeybroeck


I have been experimenting with a durable rust finish for sword hardware for some time now (years actually)and have come up with a fast rust finish that is durable and *black* which was what I was after.

Posted Image

It's nothing new really, just a twist on the way guys used to blue/blacken firearms by rusting, carding, and thenboiling. I used hydrogen peroxide, salt, and vinegar to flash rust the surface for multiple cycles and then boiled

ckened and antiqued hardware! - Bladesmith's Forum Board http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=1373

6 25/08/2009 15:41


2/6

the fittings in distilled water for 10 minutes. The fittings were covered in Ren. wax while still hot.

My question is: What chemically happens to the red rust when it's boiled to make such a deep black color? Itjust amazes me how durable this finish seems to be (we all know how hard it is to get rust off of clean steelsurfaces!) but my wife asked me why does the red turn black and I simply don't know. [dunno]

Any chemists out there?

Brian"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

"The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new."- Lyle E. Schaller


Brian Vanspeybroeck


The mixture is simple. I use approx. 1/2 cup of regular Walmart hydrogen peroxide and warm it up in themicrowave....don't boil it, just steamy. Then put it in a glass container with a screw on lid (a mason jar) and add

table salt a bit at a time until it is saturated. Add a little, shake it up, add a little more til no more will dissolve.Then add about a couple of capfulls of white vinegar...say maybe an ounce.

I warm it back up and put it in a little spray bottle. Use very clean steel and spray it all over the piece. It willfoam and steam and you will immediately see red rust in the foam. Spray it again and keep it wet for maybe 30seconds. then just stand there and let it complete it's reaction...it will stop foaming. Rinse under hot tap water,don't rub the piece just rinse it.

Then while it's still hot spray 'er again. Repeat the spray and rinse routine for about 6 or 7 cycles and the steelwill have a thick, uniform coating of fine red brown rust. Rinse it and then boil it in distilled water for 10minutes until it turns jet black...Remove from the boiling and coat with Rennaisance Wax. It's done andbeautiful.

Posted Image

The texture on the tsuba (the tsuba and kashira in my first pix) was actually pre existing due to other botchedattempts at producing the right results. But I like the antique look so it stayed. The fuchi/collar was done with avery clean and etched surface and it came out glossy and without any pitting or antiquing at all. It actuallyshines in direct light. I will continue experimenting with textures but the finish is *very* tough...like rust. I loveit.

Like the pix above! See the shine?

soooo...

Why does the red rust turn black? And remember, don't hide how it's done if it works for you. Pass it along toothers who need the help or can use the process.




R.H. Graham

Posted 19 January 2004 - 11 :17 AM

Stuff that's browned or browned and blackened can develop rust occasionally, if not oiled and waxed, but it's likea bleed-out effect... a little oil and light rub with steel wool and it blends right into the finish and dissapears.Browning has been one of my favorite finishes since I was a kid... even do it on blades occasionally, takes careof the "I hate stainless" issues :0)

I was using brownells "Plumb brown" for awhile but ended up going back to old-timey recipe's like Brians', theymake a deeper and nicer coloured finish in the end.


6 25/08/2009 15:41


3/6

To add to brian's routine, if you heat the piece being browned as well, 200f or so , while you are applying, notonly does it make an incredible mess in the workspace that never ever cleans up totally, but it gives youintermediate shades between the tradtional reddish and the boiled black oxide... it's a deep chocolate brownwith hints of a purple undertone sometimes, similar to the colour you see on antique Japanese ironworkoccasionally.Spray it on and keep spraying coats untill the piece is cooled and isn't steaming off the mix anymore, thenre-heat and re-apply.

After this, if you boil it, it'll turn black but still seems to have a different undertone of colour, at least to me.1.618

Guy Thomas


This sounds like the perfect finish for a tsuba I'm close to f inishing!

I've been fiddling a bit with rust finishes but I can't get them to turn black by boiling. [wtf]Guy Thomas

Guy Thomas


Just to share a rather botched experiment, I found an ancient recipe that was supposed to yield a nice blue-blackfinish on steel. You were supposed to mix sulphur into pure turpentine heated over an alcohol lamp and applythis mixture to the steel and heat with the lamp. Well on my first attempt I f lashed the turpentine sulphurmixture wich made the most god awful stink and then couldn't get the sulphur (flowers of sulphur from thedrug store) to mix into the artists quality turpentine but tried to coat the steel with it anyway. Boy what a messthat made! Needless to say I didn't get any kind of finish I'd want to show anyone! And I had to get severalshowers before I got rid of the burning sulphur smell from my hair and skin! I will definitly be trying this quick

rust recipe soon!Guy Thomas

Mike Blue


I like the quick and easy home brew nitrate formulae, but it sounds an awful lot like the low temperature gunbluing solutions. The temperature is pretty much exactly what the commercial solutions recommend. Thenitrate gun blues would be a viable alternative. Some of those come out nearly black. The home recipe is good,no hazmat shipping fee.

There has been some confusion over the term "hot blue." What I think of hot bluing is running lowtemperature salts, sodium and potassium nitrates up to about 600-700 degrees F.

More commonly it seems that hot bluing refers to the chemical baths in the 290 degree F range.Blacksmiths, respected but not necessarily respectable. H. Clark

Ken Burns


Robert , the book I got the formula out of says the solution is good for 35 - 50 blacking jobs. Apparently theAN stays in the tank and only the lye and water boils out. It also says to add a pound of lye every 12 -15 jobs(remember this is based on the full mixture) and water as necessary. I know from experence if you get thetemp too high the solution will boil away fairly quickly. Also as to Brain's concern about a durable finish thisfinish is supposed to take a wire brush test without any damage (I don't know - ain't gona try it on my tsuba).

Ken

lwrhea


6 25/08/2009 15:41


4/6


I cant answer your question, but I have one for you. Do you kill the vinegar solution on the peice with bakingsoda between dips? This is very new to me and I can see that I could use this technique. Is you hardware mildsteel or does it apply to carbon as well? Are you willing to give the mixing ratio of the parts? From the pictures ,I see that it works great and would appreciate more info. Lin Rhea

DFogg


Great tip Brian, I am going to try that next time out. Good question on the color shift, I am sure someone outthere is up on their chemistry and will fill us in. Thanks. [applause]Don FoggDon Fogg Custom Knives (http://www.dfoggknives.com)

Podmajersky


If I remember correctly Red Iron Oxide is Fe2O3 while Black Iron Oxide is Fe3O4. This info is from potterysupply catalogs where both compounds are sold. I would imagine, (educated guess here) that the boilingconverts the Fe2o3 to Fe3o4.

Brian Vanspeybroeck


ksb, on Jan. 19 2004,8:55, said:

For a really nice deep black smooth finish try a nitrate finish. Some of the old German firearms used it.

KenHey Ken, can you describe how the nitrate finish is done? What stuff do we need and how is it applied? I'malways lookin' for another way.

Thanks!




Phillip Jones

Posted 21 January 2004 - 1 1:11 AM

Cast iron skillets are nice and shiney to start and then, as they season for a while, turn black. It has to comefrom the oil used on them to season it. Just like the oil used on that tsuba.Phillip Joneshttp://customknives.com/jonesbrothers/ (http://customknives.com/jonesbrothers/)

Podmajersky


I was doing some investigation into the chemistry involved and ran across a reference to the following chemicalequation:


6 25/08/2009 15:41


5/6

Fe + 4Fe2O3 = 3Fe3O4

So since Fe2O3 is hematite or red iron oxide and Fe3O4 is magnetite or black iron oxide it seems plausable thatthe application of heat in the proper environment would allow the Fe2O3 to react with the Fe (iron) whilepreventing the iron from reacting with any oxygen. Hence the red rust is converted to black. I'm not a chemistand I don't currently have any chemist friends to verify this either but what I do remember of college chemclasses seems to support the above.

Geoff Keyes

Posted 21 January 2004 - 1 1:15 PM

I use a cold blue on my damascus. You apply and then buff the high spots down, leaving the blue in thehollows. Do you suppose this process would work for that kind of application?

Geoff"The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else."

I said that.

Dan McDougall


I can't answer either, however I was also wondering if you were willing to give out the ratio of the mixture?

I have heard of people heating the piece up and rubbing it with linseed oil to get a black finish but it doesntlook nearly as good as yours. Your process also creates a very unique texture. Very nice.

Daniel L. McDougall

Mike Blue


A bit of brief research hasn't produced anything in my books about colors changing. The gun folks have usedboiling water for years to change the gun barrel colors from brown to blue or black. I wonder if it isn't aheat/oxygen change.

However, the last time I acquired iron (94% powder and 96% sintered nuggets) from the mine, it was black. Thepowder was a dead black, the nuggets more black gray. Exposed to the atmosphere/humidity they both turnred.

Both of those forms are listed as iron oxide. There are two molecular forms. Ferric oxide and Ferrous oxidethat would be simplified to plain iron oxide. I'm still checking on the colors of both types though. Chemistrybooks aren't that complete.

Any artist types out there who work with iron as a pigment? They might have a better answer.Blacksmiths, respected but not necessarily respectable. H. Clark

Brian Vanspeybroeck


Guy, this was the part that took me years to get right. I used to rust the stuff for days with all kinds of crazyconcoctions (like the peroxide and salt ain't a concoction ??? ) but it all just came together when I flash rustedand boiled. The whole #### thing takes about 20 minutes if you do it the way I described above.

Thanks for the explainations from Mike and Leif...I guess if it works who really cares how or why. [dunno] Still, I sometimes wish for more technical education.

Randal, the variations as you stated are also *very* nice. the purpleish browns are very classy as well...I ran intothose colors along the way. I hope to be able to produce multicolor fittings this way eventually but have a fewprojects that will delay that experiment for a while yet.


6 25/08/2009 15:41


6/6

I have not seen any rust form after finishing....but it has not been that long and the wax is sure to stop that fromhappening as it was applied while the steel was yet very warm. It is virtually encased in wax but I will do anoiled version next.

Good stuff, Dudes. It's magic. Me like. [ylsuper]




(2 Pages)

12

Powered By IP.Board3.0.2 2009 IPS, Inc.Licensed to: forums.dfoggknives.com


blackened and antiqued hard

Documents