bob hill predestination and free will q&a 1

Directions: Click "Question:" to view the complete questions. Click "Answer:" to view the answer. Click the "Question:" or "Answer:" again to collapse them back down. Question: Delivered by the purpose and foreknowledge of God how do you explain that?

Name: Michael

First of all I have to admit:

Being in a Southern Baptist Church, I was highly skeptical and utterly biased against you and your "open view" theology of God. Obviously just glancing at your articles on "Does God Repent" and "Predestination vs. Freewill" left me believing that you had some sort of critic theology. I expected the worst. But after reading Augustine's Confessions I contemplated the testimony of his conversion from Manicheanism. And the only conclusion I can come up with is that the Manicheans were skeptical of OT scriptures because they believed it spoke of a mutable God. I eventually left your Theology forum never to post again, because I was becoming so argumentative and naive. I probably still am a bit naive. But after reading Gregory Boyd's book "God of the Possible" I am starting to come around. I do have a few questions concerning Foreknowledge though. Namely Acts 2:23. "Him being delivered by the purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death" How do you explain this verse?

Answer: (click here to view the answer)

Michael,

Welcome back to our site, and thanks for the question. It is clear that God did, indeed make sure the crucifixion of Christ would be done in the way He prophesied. Thats exactly what Acts says in two places. I think the passage you mentioned should be translated like this: Act 2:23 Him, delivered by the destined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, having taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death. This shows the underlying Greek word is the destine part of predestine. The similar passage which I will also translate, is in Acts 4:26-28 The kings of the earth took their stand, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against His Christ. 27 For truly against Your holy child, Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your counsel predestined to be done.

Notice that in both passages the Lord Jesus Christ Himself was not destined or predestined. Though Jesus willingly went to the cross, others were predestined. In Acts 2:23, Christ was delivered by the destined counsel of God. In Acts 4:27,28, Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Gods hand and His counsel predestined to be done. Christ was not predestined in either one of these passages. Gods predestination was there to make sure they did what God wanted. However, it was up to Christ to freely die for our sins. Remember in the garden when He in anguish, in Mat 26:39-43, went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will. 40 Then He came to the disciples and found them asleep, and said to Peter, What? Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done. 43 And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

God, the Father, wanted Jesus Christ to willingly die for our sins. Christ implored the Father. Is there any other way? Oh, let this cup pass. To take upon myself the sin of the world. Oh Father. But, He conformed His will to the Fathers. He freely died for our sins. Praise our Lord Jesus Christ, and praise God, the Father, almighty.

Remember, before man had sinned, God had a plan of redemption in case man did sin. Thats what it shows us in 1 Pe 1:20: He indeed was foreknown (proegnwsmenou) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

I hope this answers your question Michael. Please ask any questions you want.

Sincerely, in Christ the sacrifice for our sins,

Bob

Question: How do you explain the Scripture that shows God knows all of the future?

Gary

Question: How do you explain the Scripture that shows God knows all of the future?

I have been discussing theology with my coworkers and they have a hard time understanding the concept that God does not know the future with respect to the actions of free will moral agents. They believe that God knows All of the future. In particular, one young lady I work with (who is a Baptist) wanted to know that if God doesnt know all of the future, then how do you explain the following Scripture passages: Jer 23:23,24; Psa 139; Isa 44:7; Isa 46:10; Isa 48:3; Pro 15:3; 2 Ti 3:16; Rev 22:13.

These particular passages were selected by her pastor by the way. After initially reading these passages, I challenged her to show me where they specifically state that God knows ALL of the future. She couldnt answer me specifically. I plan on rereading/restudying the predestination and freewill issue to give her a more concise answer but could you provide a brief statement on the above passages for her.

Thanx, Gary


Gary,

Its great to have fellowship with other believers at work. Dont let theology divide you. Always remember that our fellowship is based on the love of God. We should especially seek God and pray that we have a loving attitude as we discuss Gods word with fellow Christians who believe differently.

Jer 23:23,24 Am I a God near at hand, says the Lord, And not a God afar off? 24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him? says the Lord; Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the Lord. This has nothing to do with what God knows of the future actions of humans. This shows us Gods glorious ability to see whats going on no matter what.

Psa 139 See The Knowledge of God in Psalm 139 on biblicalanswers.com. Its in the Books & articles about predestination section.

Isa 44:7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. When God proclaims or appoints things, we find from our next two passages, Isa 46:10 & Isa 48:3, that He actually makes them happen.

Isa 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure, 11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

First, notice that God declares certain things are going to happen. Then He tells us why it is sureMy counsel shall stand. Why will His counsel stand? He tells us immediatelyI will do all My pleasure. God declares these things because He will do them. It is not that He knows all the future, its that He declares certain aspects of the future and then makes them happen. Other times He says perhaps they will happen such as in Jer 26:2,3 Thus says the Lord: Stand in the court of the Lords house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lords house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. But when you read on, you see that they do not turn from their evil ways. Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt. God was afraid they would return to Egypt. Jer 36:1-3 Now it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, that this word came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 Take a scroll of a book and write on it all the words that I have spoken to you against Israel, against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spoke to you, from the days of Josiah even to this day. 3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. But, read on; they did not turn from their evil way. Isa 48:3-5 I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. 4 Because I knew that you were obstinate, and your neck was an iron sinew, and your brow bronze, 5 Even from the beginning I have declared it to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you, lest you should say, My idol has done them, and my carved image and my molded image have commanded them. Again, God declares them because Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. God declares them because He does them. That is not knowing the future actions of free will agents. That is not knowing the future except the things our Great God does. Our security is grounded on this wonderful truth. He predestines us to be holy and blameless because we are in Christ.

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good. This has nothing to do with Gods knowing the future. God knows everything, but He only knows the future events that He determines will happen. I dont understand why this verse was included.

2 Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Amen! The whole Bible is inspired by God and profitable. I dont understand why this verse was included either.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. This is a deity statement by Christ about himself. It has nothing to do with His knowing the future. He is now, and will be, in control of the end. This just as it says in 1 Co 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christs at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For He has put all things under His feet. But when He says all things are put under Him, it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

May the Lord bless your fellowship at work,

Bob

Question: What are the Scripture references to support Arminian views of predestination?

10 May 2000 07:13

Name: Lorraine Jamison

Question:

Can you give me scriptural references to support the claims of arminianism concerning predestination? I can find so many for the doctrines under the title of calvinism but none for arminianism.

Why is this?

Lorra


Lorra,

Most Arminians say they do not believe in determinism, but they have the same presuppositions that cause the Calvinists to come to their conclusions that God predestines the elect to be saved. For instance, I would like to present excerpts from The Works of Arminius to show you how close to Calvin Arminius was. This has to do with the attributes of God. I will put key words in bold.

The Works of Arminius.[1]

For if God resolve to use an irresistible power in the execution of his decree, or if he determine to employ such a quantum of power as nothing can resist or can hinder it from completing his purpose, it will follow that the thing will necessarily be brought into existence. Thus, wicked men who persevere in their sins, will necessarily perish, for God will by an irresistible force, cast them down into the depths of hell. But if he resolve to use a force that is not irresistible, but that can be resisted by the creature, then that thing is said to be done, not necessarily but contingently, although its actual occurrence was certainly foreknown by God, according to the infinity of his understanding, by which he knows all results whatever, that will arise from certain causes which are laid down, and whether those causes produce a thing necessarily or contingently. From whence the school-men say that all things are done by a necessity of infallibility, which phrase is used in a determinate sense, although the words in which its enunciation is expressed are ill-chosen. For infallibility is not an affection of a being, which exists from causes; but it is an affection of a Mind that sees or that foresees what will be the effect of certain causes. . . . But it being granted that God wills to form the world by his infinite power, to which NOTHING ITSELF must be equal to matter in the most perfect state of preparation and it being likewise granted that God actually employs this power it will then be said, It was impossible for the world to do otherwise than exist from this cause; or, from this cause, the world could not but exist. . . . . As we ought to enunciate negatively the mode by which the Essence of God preeminently both is and is spiritual, above the excellence of all Essences, even of those which are spiritual; so this may be done first and immediately in a single phrase, he is, anarco" kai anaitio" without beginning and without cause either external or internal. (Isa 43:10; 44:8,24; 46:9; Rev 1:8; Rom 11:35, 36; 1 Co 8:4-6; Rom 9:5.) For since there cannot be any advancement in infinitum, (for if there could, there would be no Essence, no Knowledge,) there must be one Essence, above and before which no other can exist: but such an Essence must that of God be; for, to whatsoever this Essence may be attributed, it will by that very act of ascription be God himself. . . . Infinity of Being is a preeminent mode of the Essence of God, by which it is devoid of all limitation and boundary, (Psa 145:3; Isa 43:10,) whether from something above it or below it, from something before it or after it. It is not bounded by anything above it, because it has received its being from no one. Nor by anything below it, because the form, which is itself, is not limited to the capacity of any matter whatsoever that may be its recipient. Neither by any thing before it, because it is from nothing efficient: nor after it, because it does not exist for the sake of another end. But, His Essence is terminated inwardly by its own property, according to which it is what it is and nothing else. Yet by this no limits are prescribed to its infinity; for by the very circumstance, that it is its own being, subsisting through itself, neither received from another nor in another, it is distinguished, from all others, and others are removed from it. (Isa 44:9; Rom 11:36; Pro 16:4.) THEREFORE, Whatsoever is predicated absolutely about God, is predicated concerning Him immediately, primarily, and without [respect to] cause. . . . From the Simplicity and Infinity of the Divine sense, arise Infinity with regard to time, which is called Eternity; and with regard to place, which is called Immensity; Impassability [sic], Immutability, and Incorruptibility. . . . Immensity is a pre-eminent mode of the Essence of God, by which it is void of place according to space and limits: being co-extended space, because it belongs to simple entity, not having part and part, therefore not having part beyond part. Being also its own encircling limits, or beyond which it has no existence, because it is of infinite entity: and, before all things, God alone was both the world, and place, and all things to himself; but He was alone, because there was nothing outwardly beyond, except himself. (l Kings 8:27; Job 11:8, 9.). . . . Impassability is a pre-eminent mode of the Essence of God, according to which it is devoid of all suffering or feeling; not only because nothing can act against this Essence, for it is of infinite Being and devoid of an external cause; but likewise because it cannot receive the act of anything, for it is of simple Entity. THEREFORE, Christ has not suffered according to the Essence of his Deity. . . . The life of God is his essence itself, and his very being; because the Divine Essence is in every respect simple, as well as infinite, and therefore, eternal and immutable. On this account, to it, and indeed to it alone, is attributed immortality, which, therefore, cannot be communicated to any creature. (1 Ti 1:17; 6:16.) It is immense, without increase and decrease; it is one and undivided, holy and set apart from all things; it is good, and therefore communicable, and actually communicative of itself, both by creation and preservation, and by habitation commenced in this life, to be consummated in the life to come. (Gen 2:7; Acts 17:28; Rom 8:10, 11; 1 Co 15:28.). . . . God, therefore, understands himself. He knows all things possible, whether they be in the capability of God or of the creature; in active or passive capability; in the capability of operation, imagination, or enunciation. He knows all things that could have an existence, on laying down any hypothesis. He knows other things than himself, those which are necessary and contingent, good and bad, universal and particular, future, present and past, excellent and vile. He knows things substantial and accidental of every kind; the actions and passions, the modes and circumstances of all things; external words and deeds, internal thoughts, deliberations, counsels, and determinations, and the entities of reason, whether complex or simple. All these things, being jointly attributed to the understanding of God, seem to conduce to the conclusion, that God may deservedly be said to know things infinite. (Acts 15:18; Heb 4:13; Mat 11:27; Psa 147:4; Isa 51:32, 33; 54:7; Mat 10:30; Psa 135:1 Jo 3:20; 1 Sa 16:7; 1 Ki 8:39; Psa 94:11; Isa 40:28; Psa 147:5; 139; 94:9, 10; 10:13, 14.). . . . The mode by which God understands, is not that which is successive, and which is either through composition and division, or through deductive argumentation; but it is simple, and through infinite intuition. (Heb 4:13.) THEREFORE, (1.) God knows all things from eternity; nothing recently. For this new perfection would add something to His essence by which He understands all things; or his understanding would exceed His essence, if he now understood what he did not formerly understand. But this cannot happen, since he understands all things through his essence. (Acts 15:18; Eph 1:4.) (2.) He knows all things immeasurably, without the augmentation and decrease of the things known and of the knowledge itself. (Psa 147:5.) (3.) He knows all things immutably, his knowledge not being varied to the infinite changes of the things known. (Jam 1:17) (4.) By a single and undivided act, not being diverted towards many things but collected into himself, He knows all things. Yet he does not know them confusedly, or only universally and in general; but also in a distinct and most special manner He knows himself in himself, things in their causes, in themselves, in his own essence, in themselves as being present, in their causes antecedently, and in himself most pre-eminently. (Heb 4:13; 1 Ki 8:39; Psa 139:16, 17.) (5.) And therefore when sleep, drowsiness and oblivion are attributed to God, by these expressions is meant only a deferring of the punishment to be inflicted on his enemies, and a delay in affording solace and aid to his friends. (Psa 13:1, 2.). . . . He knows all beings, whether they be considered as future, as past, or as present; (Jer 18:6; Isa 44:7;) and of these there is also a threefold order. The first order is of those beings which by his own mere act shall exist, do exist, or have existed. (Act 15:18.) The second is of those which will exist, do exist, or have existed, by the intervention of the Creatures, either by themselves, or through them by Gods preservation, motion, aid, concurrence and permission. (Psa 139:4:.) The third order consists of those which God will himself do or make, does make, or hath made, from the acts of the creatures, in accordance either with himself or with his acts. (Deu 28). This consideration is of infinite utility in various heads of theological doctrine. . . . The understanding of God is certain, and never can be deceived, so that He certainly and infallibly sees even future contingencies, whether He sees them in their causes or in themselves. (1 Sa 23:11, 12; Mat 11:21.) But, this certainty rests upon the infinity of the essence of God, by which in a manner the most present He understands all things. The understanding of God is derived from no external cause, not even from an object; though if there should not afterwards be an object, there would not likewise be the understanding of God about it. (Isa 40:13, 14; Rom 11:33, 34.). Though the understanding of God be certain and infallible, yet it does not impose any necessity on things, nay, it rather establishes in them a contingency. For since it is an understanding not only of the thing itself, but likewise of its mode, it must know the thing and its mode such as they both are; and therefore if the mode of the thing be contingent, it will know it to be contingent; which cannot be done, if this mode of the thing be changed into a necessary one, even solely by reason of the Divine understanding. (Act 27:22-25, 31; 23:11, in connection with verses 17, 18, etc., with 25:10, 12; and with 26:32; Rom 11:33; Psa 147:5.) 39. Since God distinctly understands such a variety of things by one infinite intuition, Omniscience or All-Wisdom is by a most deserved right attributed to Him. Yet this omniscience is not to be considered in God according to the mode of the habitude, but according to that of a most pure act. . . . The schoolmen[2] say besides, that one kind of Gods knowledge is natural and necessary, another free, and a third kind middle. (1.) Natural or necessary knowledge is that by which God understands himself and all things possible. (2.) Free knowledge is that by which he knows, all other beings. (3.) Middle knowledge is that by which he knows that if This thing happens, That will take place. The first precedes every free act of the Divine will; the second follows the free act of Gods will; and the last precedes indeed the free act of the Divine will, but hypothetically from this act it sees that some particular thing will occur. But, in strictness of speech, every kind of Gods knowledge is necessary. For the free understanding of God does not arise from this circumstance, that a free act of His will exhibits or offers an object to the understanding; but when any object whatsoever is laid down, the Divine understanding knows it necessarily on account of the infinity of its own essence. In like manner, any object whatsoever being laid down hypothetically, God understands necessarily what will arise from that object. 44. Free knowledge is also called foreknowledge, as is likewise that of vision by which other beings are known; and since it follows a free act of the will, it is not the cause of things; it is, therefore, affirmed with truth concerning it, that things do not exist because God knows them as about to come into existence, but that He knows future things because they are future

Although I am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, I do believe God created the angels and man with free will, and I do not believe God elected some to be saved and didnt elect others. Also, is it true that everything that happens is His will? We must look at Gods word. Does it show that man has a will?

Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 7:17 If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

1 John 2:17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

These verses weve looked at imply that man has a will. Now, looking at it from a different view, does Gods will always come to pass?

1 Ti 2:4 says God desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Yet all men are not saved. Even Christians reject the will of God. Everyone of us have according to 1 Th 4:3-7 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. In summary, 1 Ti 2:4 says God desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. God sends His Spirit to convict their hearts, John 16:8, And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, but in Luke 7:30, the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him. And untold millions have rejected His counsel for them since that time.

Though man does reject Gods counsel for himself and does resist His will, no one can resist His counsel as it pertains to His purpose. Thats what Rom 9:19 says: You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? Therefore, we need to look at the following. Many believe everything that happens is Gods will. If that is true, then the unrepentance and perishing of the wicked must be His will. Yet, according to 1 Ti 2:4, God says this is not His will.

How could you reconcile, that is, make these two statements fit? Heres how one theologian did. God does not want men to perish according to His revealed will. But according to His effectual will, God wants some men to perish. If this were true, what would that mean? One meaning would be that God lies. He tells (reveals to) us that He wants to save everyone but, in fact, has no such wish. Or, another meaning would be, God really does want to save them and not want to save them at the same time. Therefore, God would be a God of contradiction and chaos. But there is no Scripture to support his statement. Further, this would also include an effectual calling, which means God regenerates the elect so they are able to believe. They also believe that He has a non-effectual calling, which would be the one He has issued. But, again, Scripture shows the opposite. For instance, John 12:32 shows this: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself. Mat 22:10 is similar, So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called ones, but few are chosen ones.

Another problem would be the be that it would include an unconditional election, where God chooses whom would be saved regardless of their faith, and a conditional election, where they would have to make their election sure. 2 Pet 1:10, Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble.

Others talk about His active will and His permissive will, but this has no scriptural support. Does He permit men to continue on the road to hell, when He could transfer them to the road of life? What does Gods word say? Weve already seen 1 Tim 2:4 says God desires [wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. But did you know that 2 Pet 3:9 says, The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should have room for repentance. [me boulomenos tinas apolesthai, alla pantas eis metanoian choresai]

One more passage that you might be interested in is Psalm 32. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit. 3 When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. 4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. Selah 5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, I will confess my transgressions to the LORD, And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

Does God want us to sin? And then forgive us? 6 For this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You In a time when You may be found; When is that? I think it means, before the trouble starts, so you can prepare yourself by getting into Gods word. Because, Surely in a flood of great waters They shall not come near him. 7 You are my hiding place; You shall preserve me from trouble; You shall surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah

What was Davids strength? 8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye. Now for the clincher, to see what God wants. God does not want mule-like servants. 9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you. No, God wants relationships of mutual affection. He loved us first. He wants us to love Him freely. He doesnt want us to have a love based on force. Thats no love at all. So, in conclusion, He wants all men to be saved. He doesnt want a bunch of bridled mules. He wants to leave men free to accept or refuse His plan to give them salvation. Now, if this is true Lorra, then what? I think its up to us to live a life style of evangelism.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] The AGES Digital Library, The Works of Arminius, pp. 263,265,404-406,409-414. All biblical book abbreviations are mine.

[2] Schoolmen, Scholasticism, connotes the long period of Western learning, especially philosophical and theological, originating in the ninth century and terminating in the fifteenth century. Two notable features of this learning are its intimate association with Catholic theology and its rigorous logical formalism. Ferm, An Encyclopedia of Religion, p. 695. An outstanding objective of the school men was to ascertain the relation of faith to reason. Latourette, A History of Christianity, p. 495,496.

Question:...Are the pilgrims of the Dispersion elected to be saved?

24 Mar 2000 09:40

Name: Marlyn Y

Question: Are the pilgrims of the Dispersion elected to be saved?

Bob Hill,

A question for you in 1 Peter 1-5:

1) In verse 1 and 2, Are the pilgrims of the Dispersion in.... are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father?

2) In verse 4, to an inheritance.... reserved in heaven for you. Are these pilgrims of the Dispersion...believing jews? So they have inheritance in heaven?

3) In verse 5, What is salvation ready to be revealed in the last time?

I hope you can help me on this while I am studying these passages. I am using the New King Jim Version. You surely have a nice website and I do learn and enjoy your show.

In His Grace,

Marlyn


Marlyn,

First I want to print all of 1 Peter 1:1-5 with my minor alterations from the Greek text. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to chosen sojourners of [the] Dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of [the] blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible, undefiled and unfading inheritance, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are being kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last season.

You asked, 1) In verse 1 and 2, Are the pilgrims of the Dispersion in.... are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? Yes those who are believers in the chosen nation are partakers of the blessings of the chosen nation, Israel. The BGD Lexicon for geno" has this: nation, people . . . geno" eklekton a chosen nation 1 Pe 2:9. (GraecaII is the Greek font Im using.)

Although Peter addressed this epistle to the elect dispersion, this does not mean that their salvation was sure. God called the whole nation of Israel His elect many times, but their personal salvation depended upon their continued response to His commands. If they were disobedient, their personal salvation would be jeopardized. Gods election of Israel concerned the nation as a whole, not the salvation of individuals. When God chose this nation to be a people for Himself (Deu 7:6-26; 14:2), He imposed many conditions of obedience on them.

Peter summarized these conditions of obedience and applied them to the recipients of 2 Peter in 1:10: Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble. This concept of obedience is also stated here in First Peter.

This election is corporate. They were elected as a nation. But to be one of the elect, they must obey, that is, respond in faith and endurance. Notice, they were elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. Gesenius shows that the Hebrew word yada, often translated know, is used of God as caring for man. Here, I think it means, making one the object of loving care. Jer 1:5 says, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. We can apply that interpretation to our passage. I think God is expressing His love. God made the nation of Israel, a corporate body, the object of His loving care when they were in the wilderness (Hos 13:5).

However, in general, they did not respond to His love. When He said in Amos 3:2, You only have I known of all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities, it was not that His knowledge was limited to Israel. This statement expressed His love for them. In the same way, He expressed His love in Deu 10:15, The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Then He continued by laying conditions on them for individual blessing.

I believe the foreknowledge of God in respect to the recipients of Peters epistle is His desire to love them. The same requirement, for obedience, was imposed on them here as it was in Deuteronomy 10. The words, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, remind me of the affirmation of the covenant by the chosen people in Ex 24:5-8.

Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.

This covenant people was chosen according to the fore-love of God the Father, by sanctification of the Spirit to obey Gods covenant commands. Instead of animals, however, the blood of Christ is mentioned in the Petrine passage. It is mentioned because it is the blood of the new covenant. Aspects of the new covenant were in place for this people addressed in First Peter. Also, commands were made according to the new covenant.

Peter conveyed some wonderful thoughts to the dispersion when he wrote to them. They have been begotten again for a living hope and a permanent inheritance. They are kept by the power of God for salvation prepared to be revealed in the end time. Is this rebirth absolute? Does it mean they are secure? Are there any conditions which must be met for them to experience these blessings? What assurance of salvation do they have? We must answer these questions from the context. Their assurance depended on their faith. They are being kept (This is a present participle, it is continuous present action, tou" en dunamei qeou frouroumenou" dia pistew",. those being kept by the power of God through faith.) by their faith. If they continue in their faith until the end, they will make their salvation sure (Mat 24:10-14) since these epistles will have special use in the tribulation. That is why Peter told them to be diligent to make their election sure in 2 Pe 1:10,11 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

They did not have security of their salvation as we do. They had assurance as long as they were being diligent in maintaining their faith. We were sealed by the Holy Spirit at the point of our salvation (Eph 1:13). Since our sealing lasts until the day of redemption (Eph 4:30), we have security in contrast to their assurance, which was for as long as they maintained their faith.

In Deu 32:18,19 we see the whole nation had been begotten by God, Of the Rock who begot you . . . the God who fathered you. But that did not mean they were all saved. In fact, Israel forsook God, And when the Lord saw it, He spurned them, because of the provocation of His sons and His daughters. Therefore, the answer to your suggested question earlier is, no! Just because they were begotten of God, that does not mean they were securely saved. Their salvation depended on their continuance in that faith.

Isaiah addressed Israels unfaithfulness and its consequences in the 65th chapter. We must remember that God has always shown His keeping power in the history of Israel. He loved them and anguished over them repeatedly in their long history. But in Jer 15:6, we find that Israel was so exasperating that God said, You have forsaken Me, says the Lord, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

But the greater context shows His churning emotions over Israel. Hos 11:8 is one of the best examples: How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred. As long as they trusted God, He protected them from their enemies, won their battles, and blessed them abundantly. Here, in 1 Pe 1:5, these same principles apply to their salvation. We may take only the secondary application to ourselves since our salvation is secure (Eph 1:4-14). Our blessings are conditional. If we feed on His word by meditating on it, we can grow in our love for Him. Then as we concentrate on loving Him we will experience that miraculous love in our own hearts. As we continue loving the Lord He fills us with His fruit. Remember, Christ is formed in us by faith (Eph 3:17). When we learn to depend totally on Him, His love will flow out of our inner man like springs of water, and His blessings will overwhelm us and we will minister for Him in His power.

The principles for Israel are not so different from those applicable to the body of Christ. The greatest distinction is the point at which salvation is received. Our salvation is sealed at the point of our belief. Theirs is received at the end of their faith when it is shown to be genuine. Thats what it means when it says, receiving the end of your faith the salvation of your souls in 1:6,7,9 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, . . . 9 receiving the end of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Peter used a purpose clause here, that the genuineness of your faith, to express Gods desire that the testing of their faith would result in praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pe 1:13; Rev 1:1). If their faith is found to be genuine, then they will receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls. Their salvation is conditional. This testing is exactly what the circumcision covenant has required from its inception.

I hope this answers your questions.

In Christ,

Bob Hill Question:...position seems to imply a temporal God, a concept clearly contradicted by the scripture.

20 Mar 2000 17:10

Name: D. C. Fink

Question: Can God exist in time and still be God?

Mr. Hill,

My question relates to the foreknowledge issue. The traditional reformed position (as articulated in the exerpt you quote from Calvin's INSTITUTES) views God as "outside" of time, seeing all things, as it were, at once. It would seem that according to your position, and the position held by other openness theologians such as Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock, God has a consciousness within time, learning and growing and reacting to his creation (Boyd is crystal clear on this point). My question is this: according to the understanding of the univers spelled out by modern physics, space and time are inseparably connected--time can be mathematically described as a fourth dimension to the three of space. Therefore, if an entity exists in time, it must also exist in space. Describing an object that exists in time, but not in space, is as impossible as describing an object with length, but no height; breadth, but no depth. If you maintain that God exists in time, it seems as though he must also exist in space. Thus, your position seems to imply a temporal God, a concept clearly contradicted by the scripture.


Mr. Fink,

Thank you for your observations, logical presentation and rational conclusion. I agree with the way you put your argument. However, I must make a few modifications about what you may think I believe. I do not believe in the God of Process Theology. I do not believe God is learning or growing. I do agree He does not know for certain many free will happenings before they are made certain by the free will agent.

I do not care what the "new physics" has "mathematically described". I majored in chemistry, then biology, then Greek, and then graduated in history; and in my 67 years I have seen science change dramatically many times in my short lifetime. Because God is spirit, I don't think modern physicists could describe Him anyway. What I depend on to find out who God is and how He acts and feels is the Bible.

The Bible shows us that God repents, does not know certain free-will actions of men in the Bible, has passion and says perhaps. See my articles on biblicalanswers.com. The God of the Bible is dynamic and able to do these things that Augustine, Calvin and other great men have mistakenly said He could not do.

In Christ,

Bob Hill

Question:...God wants (intends) to fulfill His promises, but that man's freewill prevents Him...

Jobeth

March 15, 2000

You believe and teach that God wants (intends) to fulfill His promises, but that man's freewill prevents Him so that He is UNABLE to do what He said He would do. Is that correct? If so, then how do you answer the charge that this teaching makes Human Beings MORE powerful than the Almighty and that it makes mans Freewill the Supreme Power and Ultimate Authority rather than the Most High God?

I want to know if you believe that the explanation for "so-called" failed prophecy is: A) God is unable to (cannot) fulfill His promise or B) God refuses to (will not) fulfill His promises? Which is the case? Is it that God CAN keep His promises, but doesn't WANT TO? Or is it that God WANTS TO keep His promises, but CAN'T? Do you assert that God makes promises that He CANNOT Keep? Or do you assert that God makes promises that He doesn't INTEND TO keep? For that matter, does God even KNOW whether His promise will be fulfilled or not?


The cause of "so-called" failed prophecy is man. God made many prophecies that will never be fulfilled because man was disobedient. Because man was disobedient, God changed His mind.

The Scriptures give His principles in Jer 18:1-10 The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter;

The vessel wasnt marred because God was inept. It was marred because man was rebellious.

so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the Lord. Look, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

The prophecies that cant be fulfilled are the kinds that occur in Isa 7:10-16 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above. 12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord! 13 Then he said, Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

The Immanuel prophecy was not kept as given by God. The virgin did not conceive in Ahazs time. That exact prophecy was not fulfilled. Why? I dont know, but God must have had a good reason.

15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

The Ezekiel ch. 26-30 prophecies against Tyre, especially when God said Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre, were not fulfilled. God said He would pay Nebuchadnezzar for His 13 years of labor. Nebuchadnezzar did not take Tyre. Why? Probably because the king of Tyre repented, but we dont have any information that says that. We can only surmise that from Jonahs prophecy that wasnt fulfilled because the king and the people of Tyre repented, so God repented of the harm He said was going to happen-40 days Nineveh is going to be destroyed.

In Christ,

Bob

Question:...Is God Outside of Time Plato, Plotinus, Augustine 15 Mar 2000 17:49

Name: Alan Farris

Question: Is God Outside of Time Plato, Plotinus, Augustine

In your explination of Predestination vs. Free Will, please explain your thoughts that God is not sure what men will do in all cases. I thought God was omnipotent and all knowing. I thought he lived outside of time, so it is His nature to know.

Please explain.

Thanks


Alan,

Many are concerned with the way I deal with the Scriptures which say that God changes His mind, answers prayer or repents. Many Christians dont sympathize with Calvinism at all but believe that a solution to the problem of Gods repentance in over twenty passages in the Bible is found in what Paul Tillich borrowed from Greek philosophy: The eternal now, that God is not in time. I have been studying this topic for 40 years and have not found one place that says God is outside of time or even alludes to that idea. Instead, the Bible shows God working with us in time.

Passages like 2 Ti 1:9, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, and Tit 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, should be translated, before age times (pro cronwn aiwniwn GraecaII font).

Instead of Tillich making this statement originally, it was Plato. Plato was the one that influenced Augustine the most through another philosopher, Plotinus. I think Augustine, who lived from 354-430 AD, was the most influential theologian who ever lived.

Most scholars in the ancient world of Augustine understood Platos concept of God. He had influenced almost all the schools of philosophy of that time. Plato explained Gods immutability this way in, A dialogue between Socrates and Adeimantus.

Is it not true that to be altered and moved by something else happens least to things that are in the best condition . . . that those which are well made and in good condition are least liable to be changed by time and other influences. . . . It is universally true then, that that which is in the best state by nature or art or both admits least alteration by something else. . . . But God, surely and everything that belongs to God is in every way in the best possible state. . . . Then does he (God) change himself for the better and to something fairer, or for the worse and to something uglier than himself? It must necessarily . . . be for the worse if he is changed . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change. . . . Then God is altogether simple and true in deed and word, and neither changes himself. (Plato. Plato V, Republic I, Loeb Classical Library, Book II, Chapters XIX-XXI, pp. 191-197, trans. by Paul Shorey.)

This argument was formulated by Plato and later adopted by Augustine through the writings of the Neoplatonists, and especially Plotinus. Let me emphasize again, what Plato said at the end of his dialogue. He basically said that since God is perfect, he is not altered or moved by anything else. Here is Platos conclusion about Gods immutability again. . . . the gods themselves are incapable of change . . . Then God . . . neither changes.

The Neo-Platonist, Plotinus (about 205-269), made a journey to the East and returned with an arsenal of monistic ideas against the rapidly-growing Christian church in the Roman Empire. To claim the Greek philosophical heritage he included some ideas from Plato, his system of contemplation was identical with the yoga of Hindu monism. Plotinus failed to rally the Roman Empire against Jesus Christ, but he was rediscovered and introduced through the back door many centuries later. Plotinus lived about 150 years before Augustine. He was very influential upon Augustine. The concept of God being in the state of Eternal Now (Atemporal), or being outside of time, was received from Plato through Plotinus. Lets examine the parallel thoughts of Plotinus and Augustine. Well see Augustine was greatly influenced by the thoughts of Plotinus.

The concept that there is no past or future only present

Plotinus

seeing all this one sees eternity in seeing a life that abides in the same, and always has the all present to it, not now this, and then again that, but all things at once, and not now some things, and then again others, but a partless completion . . . Necessarily there will be no was about it, for what is there that was for it and has passed away? Nor any will be, for what will be for it? So there remains for it only to be in its being just what it is. That, then, which was not, and will not be, but is only, which has being which is static by not changing to the will be, nor ever having changed, this is eternity. (Plotinus. Plotinus III, Ennead, The Loeb Classical Library, Book III, Chapter 7, p. 305, trans. by A.H. Armstrong)

Augustine

so that of those things which emerge in time, the future indeed, are not yet, and the present are now, and the past no longer are; but all of these are by Him comprehended in His stable and eternal presence . . . but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness (The City of God, Book XI, Chapter 21, p. 364). Augustine believed that God exists in an eternal present in which the future and the past are comprehended as existing now. Plotinus said the eternal does not have a was (past) or a will be(future) but only an is(present). Since God exists in an eternal state the past, present and future are viewed as existing in that present state at the same time as the present.

The concept that in the Eternal Now there is no change

Plotinus

which is static by not changing to the will be, nor ever having changed, (Ennead, p.305)

Augustine

but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness (City of God, p. 364). The concept of immutability again plays a crucial role in the development of the doctrine of intemporality. For God to be immutable the future could add no knowledge to what he already knows. This unchangeableness would be present in the eternal now.

The concept of having no transition of thought

Plotinus

The life, then, which belongs to that which exists and is in being, all together and full, completely without extension or interval, is that which we are looking for, eternity (Ennead, p.305).

Augustine

For he does not pass from this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness (The City of God, p. 364). Since no new knowledge can be possible for God there is no transition of thought. Again, Plotinus believed that there is no extension or interval of thought in eternity.

Augustines idea of immutability was strictly through reason, not Scripture. Augustines sources for his doctrine of the immutability of God are from his philosophical and pagan religious background. We find traces of the popular pagan religions in Augustines theology. Augustine received his doctrine of the immutability of God directly from pagan religious philosophy. This doctrine influenced Augustine in the development of other important doctrines of the attributes of God including predestination, foreknowledge, impassibility and intemporality.

Although Augustine, was raised by a Christian mother, he wandered from the Christian faith. He developed a love for philosophy. Even though he loved philosophy he still superstitiously clung to the some aspects of the faith of his mother. One sect, the Manichees combined the rationalism of the philosophers with the appropriate God-names like the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, and thus persuaded him to become a follower of their sect. This lasted for nine years.

The Manicheans stressed rational inquiry over authority. Augustine agreed with this method of ascertaining truth. Augustine also believed at one time that, in substance, the Holy Scriptures were unworthy to be compared with the wisdom of the Manicheans. The Manicheans disliked the Old Testament because it portrayed an angry emotional God who was considered by the Neoplatonists to be mutable or subject to change. By now, this Platonic conception of God was common in almost all of the Greek philosophies of Augustines age: Eugene TeSelle states: People acquainted with philosophical notions of God were uncomfortable with the anthropomorphisms of the Old Testament (not only with its descriptions of God but its suggestions that God has human emotions, or changes his mind) (TeSelle, Augustine the Theologian. New York: Herder and Herder, 1970, p.30).

Augustine was torn between his mothers religion and the rationalism he admired in the philosophies of the world. In his travels Augustine went to Milan. The Bishop of Milan was Ambrose. He offered a solution to Augustines dilemma: a reconciliation between philosophy and Catholicism. Only after Ambrose allegorized those Old Testament Scriptures that revealed a mutable God was Augustine able to accept the Catholic faith. Ambrose allegorized or spiritualized the offending Old Testament Scripture until Augustine could accept the Christian God. He later wrote, For those absurdities which in those Scriptures were wont to offend me, after I had heard divers of them expounded properly, I referred now to the depth of the mystery: yea and the authority of that Book appeared so much the more venerable, and so much more worthy of our religious credit. (Augustine. St. Augustine's Confessions I, Loeb Classical Library, Book VI, Chapter V, p. 285.) Then, Augustine turned to Scriptures after the absurdities were expounded properly. . . . Seeing therefore mankind would prove too weak to find out the truth by the way of evident reason, and for this cause was there need of the authority of Holy Writ.

Although Augustine later had a high regard for Scripture, he allowed reason to first dictate his ideas about Gods attributes. Then, the details were to be filled by Scriptures. The most damaging presupposition, which has harmed Christianity the most, was the immutability of God. This doctrine of immutability influenced his doctrines of impassibility, predestination, foreknowledge, and intemporality of God. Later, these doctrines were absorbed by Calvin. This influence of Augustine over Calvin is attested by Calvinists. For example, Benjamin Warfield wrote, The system of doctrine taught by Calvin is just the Augustinianism common to the whole body of the Reformersfor the Reformation was, as from the spiritual point of view a great revival of Augustinianism. (Warfield, Benjamin. Calvin and Augustine, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1956, p.22))

In Augustines own words: And for this I rejoiced also, for that the Old Scriptures of the Law and the prophets, were laid before me now, to be perused, not with that eye to which they seemed most absurd before, whenas I misliked thy holy ones for thinking so and so: but indeed they did not think so. And with joyful heart I heard Ambrose in his sermons to the people, most diligently oftentimes recommend this text for a rule unto them, The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life: whilst those things which taken according to the letter seemed to teach perverse doctrines, he spiritually laid open to us, having taken off the veil of the mystery; teaching nothing in it that offended me... (St. Augustine's Confessions, Book VI, Chapter IV, p. 259). Augustine also explained his reasoning which reconciled his conversion to the Catholic faith: For first of all the things began to appear unto me as possible to be defended : and the Catholic faith, in defense of which I thought nothing could be answered to the Manichees arguments, I now concluded with myself, might well be maintained without absurdity: especially after I had heard one or two hard places of the Old Testament resolved now and then; which when I understood literally, I was slain. Many places therefore of those books having been spiritually expounded. (Book V, Chapter XIV, p. 259)

What were those literal interpretations that Augustine could not accept literally. One of them was the mutability of God, that God changes, that God could be influenced and change his mind from one time to the next in order to adjust to a changeable mankind. In his Confessions, Augustine explained what literal interpretations were unacceptable. Among those foolish arguments that Augustine could not answer in defense of Christianity he wrote: And because God commanded them one thing then, and these another thing now for certain temporal respects; and yet those of both ages were servants to the same righteousness, whereas they may observe in one man, and in one day, and in one house, different things to be fit for different members, and one thing to be lawful now, which in an hour hence is not so; and something to be permitted or commanded in one corner, which is forbidden or punished in another. Is Justice thereupon various or mutable. (Book III, Chapter VII, p. 125)

Remember, the Manicheans believed God could not be mutable and retain his perfection. Augustine accepted this philosophy as true and attempted to prove this doctrine in Scripture. In The Morals of the Catholic Church, Augustine explained the doctrines of the Old Testament that were so absurd. In explaining his dispute with the Manichaeans we observe his agreement with them about the literal interpretation of the Old Testament: We do not worship a God who repents, or is envious, or needy, or cruel, or who takes pleasure in the blood men or beasts, or is pleased with guilt or crime, or whose possession of the earth is limited to a little corner of it. These and such like are the silly notions...the fancies of old women or of children...and in those by whom these passages are literally understood . . . And should any one suppose that anything in Gods substance or nature can suffer change or conversion, he will be held guilty of wild profanity. (Oats, W.J., On the Morals of the Catholic Church, Basic Writings of Saint Augustine, New York: Random House Publishers, 1948, p. 327)

Even though the Old Testament literally shows a mutable, changeable God, Augustine agreed with the Manicheans that a mutable God was totally unacceptable. In this conflict between the Platonic doctrine of immutability and the literal interpretation of Scriptures what had to change? Augustines answer was that the literal interpretation of Scripture had to change. For Augustine the plain narratives of Scripture had to be reinterpreted by spiritual or allegorical methods. The Manicheans knew the Old Testament revealed a God who was mutable or could repent, and they rejected it. Since the Platonists believed that God was immutable this idea of God repenting was a source of ridicule for the Catholic Church. Augustine was so embarrassed by these arguments that he chose to reinterpret Scripture rather than depart from Platonic philosophy.

Did Augustine understand God as immutable from a study of the Scriptures. No! Augustine was reasoning about God and saw an immutable God in his mind. However, his reasoning was influenced. Augustine received the concept of the unchangeable or immutable God from the Neoplatonists. This concept passed right into his Christian theology without change. It is true that Augustine utilized Scripture in his defense of the immutability of God, but Scripture was only used to buttress his rationalistic thought of God. It was a secondary proof: Those things which our faith holds and which reason in whatever way has traced out, are fortified by the testimonies of the divine Scriptures, so that those who by reason of feebler intellect are not able to comprehend these things, may believe the divine authority, and so may deserve to know . . . Accordingly that God is unchangeable. (Concerning the Nature of the Good, Basic Writings of St. Augustine, New York: Random House, p. 440.) Notice, Augustine disclosed that reason traced out the doctrine of immutability.

The Word Repent - Sometimes people change their minds or repent

Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds repent (they repent) when they see war, and return to Egypt.

Job 42:1-6 Then Job answered the LORD and said: 2 I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, I will question you, and you shall answer Me. 5 I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, and repent (I repent) in dust and ashes.

Sometimes people do not repent

Jer 8:6 I listened and heard, But they do not speak aright. No man repented (!j;nI vyai) of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? Everyone turned to his own course, as the horse rushes into the battle.

Dont be like the muleGods response, a Psalm of David

Psalm 32:8-11 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye. 9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you. 10 Many sorrows shall be to the wicked; But he who trusts in the LORD, mercy shall surround him. 11 Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous; And shout for joy, all you upright in heart!

God repents because of wickedness

Gen 6:4-7 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry [hw:hy !j,N:YIw"] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry (I repent) that I have made them.

1 Sa 15:11,24-29,35 I repent that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments. And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 24 Then Saul said to Samuel, I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin, and return with me, that I may worship the Lord. 26 But Samuel said to Saul, I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore. 28 So Samuel said to him, The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent. 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.

God repents of disaster or good

Jer 18:1-12 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 Arise and go down to the potters house, and there I will cause you to hear My words. 3 Then I went down to the potters house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter? says the LORD. Look, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus says the LORD: Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.

God repents because of His compassion

Deu 32:36 For the LORD will judge His people and have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free.

Jud 2:18 And when the LORD raised up judges for them, the LORD was with the judge and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge; for the LORD was moved to pity by their groaning because of those who oppressed them and harassed them.

2 Sa 24:15-16 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

1 Ch 21:14-15 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell. 15 And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the LORD looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, It is enough; now restrain your hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Psa 106:43-45 Many times He delivered them; But they rebelled in their counsel, And were brought low for their iniquity. 44 Nevertheless He regarded their affliction when He heard their cry; 45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant and repented according to the multitude of His mercies.

Joel 2:12-14 Now, therefore, says the LORD, Turn to Me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning. 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He repents from doing harm. 14 Who knows if He will turn and repent and leave a blessing behind HimA grain offering and a drink offering for the LORD your God?

God repents of stated harm because of prayer

Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation. 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever. 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:1-6 Thus the Lord GOD showed me: Behold, He formed locust swarms at the beginning of the late crop; indeed it was the late crop after the kings mowings. 2 And so it was, when they had finished eating the grass of the land, that I said: O Lord GOD, forgive, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 3 So the LORD repented concerning this. It shall not be, said the LORD. 4 Thus the Lord GOD showed me: Behold, the Lord GOD called for conflict by fire, and it consumed the great deep and devoured the territory. 5 Then I said: O Lord GOD, cease, I pray! Oh, that Jacob may stand, For he is small! 6 So the LORD repented concerning this. This also shall not be, said the Lord GOD.

God doesnt repent in certain situations. The context shows why.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

1 Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent. For He is not a man, that He should repent.

Psa 110:1-4 A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! 3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. 4 The LORD has sworn and will not repent, You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.

God wants to repent

Jer 26:3,13,19 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; then the LORD will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and seek the LORDs favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them.

Jer 42:7,9-10 the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah. 9 and said to them, Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to present your petition before Him: 10 If you will still remain in this land, then I will build you and not pull you down, and I will plant you and not pluck you up. For I repent concerning the disaster that I have brought upon you.

God will not or did not repent.

Jer 4:27-28 For thus says the LORD: The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn and the heavens above be black, because I have spoken. I have purposed and will not repent, nor will I turn back from it.

Jer 20:16 And let that man be like the cities which the LORD overthrew, and did not repent; Let him hear the cry in the morning And the shouting at noon,

Eze 24:13-14 In your filthiness is lewdness. Because I have cleansed you, and you were not cleansed, You will not be cleansed of your filthiness anymore till I have caused My fury to rest upon you. 14 I, the LORD, have spoken it; It shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not hold back nor will I spare nor will I repent; According to your ways and according to your deeds they will judge you, says the Lord GOD.

God even was weary of repenting.

Jer 15:6 You have forsaken Me, says the LORD, You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting!

God is displeased and wonders

Isa 59:15-16 So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Then the LORD saw it, and it displeased Him That there was no justice. 16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

Psa 78:40-41 How often they provoked Him in the wilderness, And grieved Him in the desert! 41 Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.

God hopes or wishes

Deu 5:28,29 Then the LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me: I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. 29 Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!

Psa 81:8-13 Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you! O Israel, if you will listen to Me! 9 there shall be no foreign god among you; Nor shall you worship any foreign god. 10 I am the LORD your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt; Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. 11 But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. 12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. 13 Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!

Isa 48:17-18 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. 18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted [hqelhsa] to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing [ouk hqelhsate]!

God laments over other peoples

Isa 15:5 My heart will cry out for Moab; His fugitives shall flee to Zoar, Like a three-year-old heifer. For by the Ascent of Luhith They will go up with weeping; For in the way of Horonaim They will raise up a cry of destruction,

Isa 16:6-13 We have heard of the pride of MoabHe is very proudOf his haughtiness and his pride and his wrath; But his lies shall not be so. 7 Therefore Moab shall wail for Moab; Everyone shall wail. For the foundations of Kir Hareseth you shall mourn; Surely they are stricken. 8 For the fields of Heshbon languish, And the vine of Sibmah; The lords of the nations have broken down its choice plants, Which have reached to Jazer And wandered through the wilderness. Her branches are stretched out, They are gone over the sea. 9 Therefore I will bewail the vine of Sibmah, With the weeping of Jazer; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For battle cries have fallen Over your summer fruits and your harvest. 10 Gladness is taken away, And joy from the plentiful field; In the vineyards there will be no singing, Nor will there be shouting; No treaders will tread out wine in the presses; I have made their shouting cease. 11 Therefore my heart shall resound like a harp for Moab, And my inner being for Kir Heres. 12 And it shall come to pass, When it is seen that Moab is weary on the high place, That he will come to his sanctuary to pray; But he will not prevail. 13 This is the word which the LORD has spoken concerning Moab since that time.

Question: ...the Puritans... ...were masters of prayer and had a belief that God moves and works in...

Michael Kinzie wrote: Greetings Mr. Hill, I appreciate your candor and passion for Biblical truth. I am presently atwork so I have to make this brief. In response to the prayer issue. Ifyou do any reading of the Puritans you will see that they were masters ofprayer and had a belief that God moves and works in and for His people.Even our confession the Westminster Conf. says that things happen becauseGod moves people and events in redemptive history through secondary causes.

Secondly. I find places in the Scripture were God does know exactly whatmen are going to do right down to the very smallest detail. I will sightscripture later. But one would be with Christ and Peter's denial not tomention the OT prophesies against cities were the details are laid out forus. Any way, I will try to write to you, if that is ok, later when I have moretime. I look forward to your interaction. Thanks, Michael Answer: (click here to view the answer)

Dear Michael,

We are privy to the meeting that went on in heaven at the time of Job in Job 1:6-12,

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, From where do you come? So Satan answered the Lord and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it. 8 Then the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face! 12 And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person. So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

We all know what happened, but Job did not know what took place in heaven. A long time later, just before our Savior was going to die for our sins, there was another counsel. satan (I dont like to capitalize his name.) was up to his dirty works again. He asked permission to sift Peter. Christ was in touch with the Holy Spirit enough to know that satan was given the permission to take Peter beyond what he could handle. We call this the law of cause and effect and contrast it with the law of freedom.

Cause and effect never develops character. For instance, a pew is not good because it holds people. Man made it that way. When the law of cause and effect is in place, it cannot be resisted. Therefore, will loses its freedom in these instances. Instead, outside influence becomes causal. Cause and effect may not produce moral responsibility. In Peters case, since he did not survive a fairly minor testing of his faith, he did learn by this humbling experience. In this incident, Christ knew that satan had permission to take Peter beyond Peters ability. He had told him in Luke 22:31, Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren. when you have returned to Me shows us that satan was going to be able to test him beyond what Peter was able to withstand in his own strength.

Heres the whole account in Luke: 22:29-34 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren. 33 But he said to Him, Lord, I am ready to go with You, both to prison and to death. 34 Then He said, I tell you, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day before you will deny three times that you know Me.

I believe we have other examples of this law. Here are some other passages where I think this law was in effect: Ezra 1:1; 5:5; 7:27; 9:9; Pro 21:1; Isa 44:24-28; 45:1-4,13; 46:9-11; Jer 29:10; 51:11,12,29; Eze 38:1-4,16,18,21-23; 39:1-6,8.

The Law of Freedom is different. It allows the development of character, because it allows a real choice. This law produces moral responsibility, but it also causes contingency to exist. A few of the examples I have found are: Jer 18:6-8; 26:2,3; 36:3; 38:17; Eze 18:19-31.

In my mind, the application of these laws to certain passages clears up problems. For instance, the future actions of men under the law of freedom are unknowable because they are not caused by God. Because of this, there are some things God does not know before hand: Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.

Even when God thinks or says something will happen, it may not happen under the law of freedom. God said (wa omar), She will return to Me! But she did not return (Jer 3:7). God is also limited in His promises to bless when man does not do as He commands (Psa 78:41). Even promises that appear to be unconditional may be broken (Ex 23:27-31; 33:1,2; 34:10; Deu 7:1; Josh 1:4,5; 3:10; 15:63; 16:10; Jud 2:1-3,20-23; 3:1-4,5). Lets look at Joshua 3:10 as an example: And Joshua said, By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites. But it didnt happen.

God even broke a sworn promise because of disobedience in Num 14:23,30,34: they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. 24 But My servant Caleb, because he has a different spirit in him and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land where he went, and his descendants shall inherit it. 25Now the Amalekites and the Canaanites dwell in the valley; tomorrow turn and move out into the wilderness by the Way of the Red Sea. 26 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. 28 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord, just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29 The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30 Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31 But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection.

After God had seen that everything was good, about 1,000 years later, when God saw the extreme wickedness of man, He was sorry He had made him. In fact, He repented that He had made him (Gen 6:5-7). God also repented in many other situations. Here are some examples: Ex 32:7-14; Deu 9:8-25; 1 Sa 15:11,35; 2 Sa 24:16; 1 Ch 21:15; Jer 4:28; 15:6; 20:16; 26:19; Joel 2:13; Jon 3:10. Isaiah also prophesied by the word of the Lord that Hezekiah would die soon in 2 Ki 20:1-5, but he didnt, because Hezekiah prayed. However, there are some circumstances where God said He would not repent. The context of these passages shows why (Num 23:19; 1 Sa 15:29; Psa 110:4).

bob hill predestination and free will q&a 1

Documents