,

-4634-BI~ " , .

and I ):new the ,'/hite r.an, bu t not the ;3lack !lan.

man 'N O.8 called r. ~ r. 'i ee ell e. So I asLed h im ho"' 1 ·, C 3J:1G to

s nea1 r to this man in t h is particular Ylay.

Can you }Jerhaps tell us aeain wha t he had re ' erred th8

Black man to as? --- ,,'Ie 1 1 , he \,va8 is~uill ~ in crtructions to the

Black man on what to do, as I said yesterday the Black man

was under t he ceiling and had to pass on to him certain

gadgets or alternatively push electric vvires throu(rh these

iron tubes which normally contain them, or pull an iron tube

to stand in a particular position. Now ho was bei n g directed (10)

from above by this guy because he lS a techn.ici c.U'.l really, and

the Black man is his assiBtant. But it is not a normal in-

struction - when I say ftnormal" there if.) no "move it to the

side, to the 1 eft please", or you ]mO \N , that sort talk.

The ',"lhite man. is r 'ln tinr; a11. (.1. shoutin,Q', thro r,in~r:; in (l few rou{~h

descriptive terms as swea rinr; vvords , you ]mov\', "'you fool, 8,nd

caY}' t you h ear men, you :know, that s'Jrt of thin,:r; , ",h ich I

thou:o;ht was a very ~range 'Hay of t3.lkinr to 8omnone you \~/ork

rl i th, you lD1.o \v.

' )0 that I fc:lt ( ?o )

I s hould raise this point Vii th the '.'ill ite man. rrhG Bl a ck man

waG -there, and a s I :-:.; aid y esterday o r - Lr • . lc e ul e 3ai '1 to 11: 0 :

1"'( 11 t 'h' . 118, 1 3 18 the only 131"l.[; ua =~e i lC c an LUl ders-c <':ltH.l, hp. i~3 3.

lazy bugr.;er", ,vou Jmow, tha t sort of t hin n; . I c::m't (] ui tc quote

him. l\nd I looked at the f]lack m811. to f in ll out i f h e 8.;~ :r'God .

He smiled an 'I said s omethin!~ li }~ e : I, 'lell, h e till1-:s li ke thi 8,

I t hOLl ~~ht on my Ol,'n l t hi 8 .'.8 not

I connot concoive of a

1' : 311 r;ho is 0.1 8 0 cQlled a " b o:!,' , :, on . J10 1:: , • r . ir~ r;d1 8 r cf r-; rred. to

hi r: Q r ; 1 i 3 II boy", I c ann 0 t con c e 1 ve t h e i" i t 11 J. t i 0 :0. () . ~ n r1 '1.11 0 f ( 30 )

tJl '1t / •.•

•

. . . -_ . .

, -4635- ..,... T,ro . . . , .

t hat a~e acc() TJ tinc: it as me o};"] ,:,' Qs elll tho.t.

You didn't think t '18 31a.cl man '::a8 "::cnuine ll1 th8 Cj{nrc .... -

sion of t ha t :.:i~ntim81lt at that Gta(~e? --- ,\t fir s t I th()n~1 t J

coul d be misunder:3tan dinp, the si ttJ. :Jtion (;0 after t,:!O hours of

I did not (tel i bera tGly sec Ie to ask hiPl Jl rivat Gly r eally, it

j ust GO lla p I)ened that I fou.l1.c1 him 0.10ne ond asl-ec1 h im, 8J1 1 this

VIas Vlhen he showe rl the other side, you ] ~ no l:", st o.tinC that 11e

113,0 been \v:3.ntine: to GO a Vlay from the j ob, he c anna t; i..: t ancl thi s,

but there i s nothine; 81;:;e he can do be cause he has not ;~:ot a

p romi8e of 8l1otl:er job f rom arlY\',here e1 2. 0, 8Jl ' . .l he ("":::1 'L· 11 -t 0 ,-' <.,.;.. ~ ' . me

h e has :~ 0 t n o t 1 met a eo an d 1 00 k :fo r ~ln 0 ;~ 11 c r job nny\"! ay ,

because he works wi th this firm ri ~3ht t h rouc;h for fi VG l.ay")

of the week. This mad.e me lU1d or~~ to.nrl his si tua tion a Ii tt1e

bit better. In othe r v-Ior1s, it is an a cconlJ! lo Ll:.ltion of ;,·.'hat

;O"oes on every day, it is an c.1d juf~tmcnt to ·. 'lll crl; .r:: oes on evory

(Jay, but he has not really for .c:;otten it, he does not for(~ ive

it, he does not accept it, bu.t he ha;3 r.: ot to o.r1 just and li ve

',-; i th it, becau ;; e he has e; ot to ',vork vii t h thi s mart, ho h (1 8 n,

job to do. This vI/as th(~ e ssence of the ex,1.mple.

But in fact t l _if"J g rated an d thi s c '""-tu8ed i11-fce1in r: b e-

tween them? .--- Yes, . but t b ere . 1 ('"

oJ t h i 3 -f e e 1 i n.~ fr.o m J.'i r • '.-1 GO (11 e ,

an insu1 t.

}lO\V if I may turn just broac11y to :~ 1\ . 30 and ope at thi ;-

sta:3e.

and Bre?

t 1 ' t] ":J 1· ]? ( 1 \ ("0 JJo ley llav8 1e carne oro a l ru.1Ll ')aS 1C r.:; oo, , n. -- . ) ~ 1. I J

I think one could p erhap f' say r · \ " 0 ' 1) 1 ..; 8

sli.r:rhtly more intellectuaJ_ t hSl1 BrJ ' s , they have .n: ot the 8Llme

broad ap roach. :3,A:)0 is obvi ou ;,l,Y a s tudent o r[~ani~)ation,

(10)

( 20 )

it h 0,8 ,,:ot lot s of s tu(1ent ; SSU8 0 ' that crop in in t hei r nOrr'la1 (30 )

(lQ:/ to / •••

..

• -4636-

Dr ~:"

da y to 'lay ·\"orl\:. B 'C i s D.ore of a J1 01i tical oJ:'t an i r- a tion and

there f ore mach more directly rela t ed with }l ol it i cal i <"isu es .

But the feelin~s that they both exp ound and t he ir ob-

jects, Black Consciousness, Bl a ck ;301idari ty, genera t:i.ntS a

feeling of corrununi ty, etc., rioul ll be broadly the sam e? --- r

would say they are guided by the same ideolog ies.

And it is true of cours e that .jJ\ ;~O played a very s i gnifi-

cant role in the establishment of BPC, i s that r if'ht? --- I.rhis

1S correct, yes.

Howat the sta:~e of the establi shment of BPC you were (1 0 )

still in 3A ~)0, still a memb8r of ;':;A ~) O? --- ThCl t i s correct,

but no long er in the executive.

But "'you ' still played n. prominent rol e In ~) .I\ ~ ~;O? --- ',~/ell,

yes, I 'ilas 8. s t u dent leader ;Jt ill.

'~!as thAre a r"I\. ;30 dele;r:;ation to the 1 9 71 f) ecembcr

conference? --- Ye s , there wa s.

And those were the fonr m cmb ~ rro I think l/le sa'N '.V}JO we re

referred to in the Minutes , includin~ a ccus e d no.4? --- Yes , I

Imovv for a fact tha t r.rlr. NenGwekulu VVCl S t h e l e tiler and I a::;!'''ume who

the other three/were attached to that r8 s o1ution were the o t her (20 )

members.

Ras that an official ;3.'\30 deleGation? --- Ye ~J , i t

Did they have any mandat e f r om :J1\.:~O a .. J to wh a t a tt i tu de

they should adopt at tha.t ••• ? --- Certa i nly not to my Im owl edc;e.

Is it pos s ible that they did ha ve but tha t y ou did jus t

not Imow about it? --- Nell, I think i t \'loul d have been c1 i sc u~8ed

f airly P/idely if there was , an rl a Gain I mu s t Tl oint out t hat as

I s a i (l in my e vi dence-in-chi ef t here was a h i t of a (Jel) at c~ o.bout

the es tahli s hnl ent of the Tlolitica l orpa.ni sation . "/0 ha 1. t o

a d j ourn an d t a lk amon p's t our sel V88 yo u }~'nolfl , I c e rtainl y t8.1 1 ~8d ( 30 )

t o t hol ...

I ,

• -4637- DI ~

to the guys as a man · .. ,ho shal'pu t h eir brO ~1~. up ro a ch to life.

They did not indicate to me a speci f ic mandat e from :.' AS.O.

I think you will a("J'ree wi th me t hey accepted a very

specific stan<lpoint at that conference ;,hich even tually swayed

the other members there and their vi l~'.'1point waG finally

adopted? --- They took it, they did not accont it, they took it.

They took it? --- Yes.

But they did p ush a cert a in line? --- That is correct.

:lhich vvas in contrast to the other ideas which Viore ex-

r ressed at the conference? --- Hot completely in contrQ~1 t a3 (10)

I have ::~aid a.r~ain, I think it V/a 8 more in contrast to the ad hoc,

than to the general membership o f the mee ting . "

:loulc1 they have been able to do this as a un i ted ')/\. ,-;0

bloc without some sort of man date from) ~\ 00? --- --/e11, tn cy d id.

I mean I didn't beli eve they had a manc1a tp- bu t they dirt push a

standp oint and they dj.d succeed to - r ;0 t i.t acros s, you }U10\"I, so

I must say that they would bo able to.

That conference was in fact a c on f eren ce of cl i f ferent

organ isations, is that correct? --- 'That is cO l"'rect.

Ocle :,?:atcs repreGentin{~ diffe ren t orC;Jni c 8>tions? --- That (20)

lS correct.

Jid you find deleGates f rom oth (:: ~ or,~a.nisationG differin·.3

between themselves as to what line t o pU:-'h on bch':11 f of trJat

orcani sation? --- I lmo vv for 8. Eact t l a t thp- Y .. 1" II (! . _. and t he

Y '1 ( 1 '\ • , . v • . • delegations indic a t ed at s ome f}ta ~~ e t1.:xL they wiGl~r;d to

~!l i thdr;t ,Y in their c ClT)aci t .l_f!8 ' >0 8L1.ch bll.t c n ntinu8(1· to pa~ticiJ1 , · ,tc

in t 11 0 ,-1 e b :'l t e •

t h e c an fc r en c e? --- I t 11 inl·: '-,'lla.t ( 1 C ,

t h::~ 0 0n f erence ; ; '1'rin .rr t () , )

in / •••

• -4638-

111 n ' " r '-' rr- t ........ _~ . ' ....... C 118 .. .....) t hat l~hc ir 'i_ nt ·'")rpr -:;t~tion of t Il t " , ilJ1

not neces:-.:;arily the ~3ame as the lie ~ th::lt ',j.:';.; 1 c;in . 1 u s I.d , tha.t

ism .11 rlate no"/ from the I.~(J.ri tzbur~ confc;ren ce.

Ye3, did you cathe r tha t the delegates from the vC1rious

orGanisations hacl manuates from th f-)ir or:3[;1.ni ~~Qtion!J about v"hat

lines to push? -- I did not ~o t thi:-; impression except as I

f " r ... . -, . 1 Y :T C . fJ ay " 0 r .1.. H . G • A. o..n C • ' t'W • • A.. I have .~ot no dou bt in l:1y

mind for instanc e that Iilr. I,Iorani antl All' ,}:.; ,\ had not Gone out

of thei.r vvay to be very specific ,3,l)out th r;)ir rJa.l1~:. 8. t ,~· s, ot hcr-

"'llfJG vIe could have reviewed this to thG a cl hoc.

Thore is a lot of dual membershi}J bet'.veen :)I\. : ~O and BPC,

i sn' t there? C ertainly ~ ,t\~)O members h ave been memb r~rs 0:[ nrc

as well, not necessarily the oth~r way around? --- Yes , th~t

18 corrRct.

The : '''; ,\ :~ O lcadership, are t l1 ey all neces~~aril,/ ~ ) tu ' 1ent;?

-- As far ClS I mO'oN , yes.

All of them? --- As far as I 1810'//.

\'1a8 T. "ir. I.1 yeza, accuficd 110.2, a Gtu rlen t at the time he '. '/as

And I ~ r. 1c1iota? --- I v/o lU d 110 t know that.

You don't J110W, 3.l1 ,"1 thc t ,,-/o or,:;.'3.11. i sat :i.onG C ollaboro.tGc.l

clo s ely in many fields? --- They <li d \"lorh: tor~ether, ye':.; .

In fact I :'~ Qtherccl from nUL1erOtlS rCllort;; th~lt m::lJ1y r) ::

the heroes' (lays 811. ,1. ::JhaIl)cvil1e co r:lmemorations '."\'c r c ~Jh ;-1.rcd by

the tVlO, especially up on t h n ltcef , e t c.? --- Tn f;-).ct to h~

specific I think this is t he one s here .'/he re they you ]'81 0::

1 y an..-J BrC also c o.8h9 d in on thi s n o.rtic u1 8.r (lay, s o it 'ila~~ a (50 )

:~i rrnific3.l1 t (lCly in th e h isto r./, of t h o Dl8..c1i r('~ on J.r;.

;ho.rp r'; ' T ·_lle/ •••

• -4639-

Sh:lrpevillc com ,: emoI'Qtion dayro, were they ina u r-urnteu

by :3 [\ :30? --- They were Gt :lrted I thin ] ~ by indivi .ltlal :) {C :'3.

':;hat ;l!\ ;:-;O did in the 1970 executive :cetins in I'ort ,: ~liznb eth

nas to formally include them on tho official ~) , \ :)O CQ1Cl der.

IT ow t here vIas on e held In f a r in C) tal1c e 1 972 , the one

that - at which I:enG :\'e]cnlu spoke? --- 11ha t i s correct.

--- 0 ,'" _ J,

Universi ty of TTatal lJlack ;"oction, Cl8 felr as I rem r> r l 1::H;r •

the

. '1110 '.vas the president of the ;';RC at that time? --- I think

it vIas T.1r. ? ei th I'.l okoape.

I s he any relation to a cc useu no. "1., J r • . \.ubrc -,T Lol:oane? tj J

--- I beliGve they are brothers.

00 you know where Keith r. ~okoare lS no'!'l? --- I '.-:01.).1(1 not

]mo'v, I ]mo ';; he i 8 out of the c OLill try bn t I clon' t l,lloW '/Ihe r e

he lS.

(10 )

','las he an active :JA ~ )O member? --- For n v e ry short time, yes.

'."Ihen did he leave the scen e, the , )A ~ )O Gcene? --- It vIas

durinG 1972.

During 1972? --- Yes • •

.:las the :)11C of UlIJ3 affiliated to ~ ),'t : ) O Qt the time o f that ( ~(,

meetinG? -- They \',rere affili Clted, yes .

"r t } b f tl '-'-')C 11 '''') 1\ <-)' 0 m PJ 111J~r:; ,~. _ t i:hp.. i ,'l" m.e?, ,ere _18 mem ers 0 ' - 1e , I tt J ;", _ , _ ~ ' -J. , _

--- Not necessarily.

IT ot n cce :;sQrily? ___ If O , , .

that the centre was affili ;1. ted t hat they ',': E~r8 not ncce::>sarily

active member3 in t he , ) A ;~O l oc a l co rrJ~ 1 itt 88 .

How bo th : ;.\~~O and B_, C n rop ~.l ,~a t e t h i ;:; :Black Con s c D l311 8 ,j S

11 a c k ,)oli c1etri t,y, onc1, they ' l,re both invol ve Ll in thi~; Ii bcr'lt ory

::; t ru . .rrr- l e? - I

(f 0 [' re e the B 1 ac k8 f ro r:1 p ') y c ho 1 0 r~ i c a l an d f) h.l ' j i c n l

JT 0 "'1 j n/ ..

..

-4640-

that one h a ;; to 110 thre e t hin ;--::J, the ono ,,'Jou.l ,l be to idc nti . ~r

one' s ,r~ rievances o.nd formulate them, so t 1L t .vou. p';ople ] (']10\'/

"/!lat y ou ,.re arguinG abont? ~.3c con tll .. T, y ou nou.l<l n.ed to

i 'lent if~T a person r C3p on s i bl e f or t]; ( ~S C r:r l cv:.:!.n c c:J , ~30meone

'l~ainst whom your act ions rrill 'b e 'lir 'Jct cd or to 'v-;] .Oq ,you

\V oul ~l. 8.1dr '.: ss y ours -:lves in the llon e t h tLt y ou coul ,-1 a c hieve

8 0me sort of a melioration or a c han,ere?

orGani sation or rally o.rOLUld ';/hic h t ~ l e people coul d ','/or} to

a chieve their Cho.ll,?; e? --- That is a fairly rear'ona l')l c~ ann.l y sis. (10 '

'," ould the r a llyin'" p oint be '810,cJ\: C01l3Ciol1..;.~n c;::; s an.]

Dlac k ~)olic1ari ty ':;i thin a J.I oV8J l1cnt ::::;uch I \ ', '0 ':l ' 'J T1],C (;> _ ) .L ' ) ~1. I) •

' n'lO could orCQl1ise this? --- Ye s , Cl COP!.lon ic1entit.Y' , let' 3 put

it that way .

\..n ,l ""hen ,YOll_ i-J.ontify enr;f:1Y , J I,','() Lud ju:~t li]~ r; yo U 1'"

refer Your Lordship hpr e to E . 4( ". ) '.'ih ic hi::; J

it is a General Y'.4(a).

( ;' ( '

/Ol.ll d ;; cn t i P1Cnt0? --- : 1 It i;; ,I, ,·lell- l':n o -Tn

that the en _ rr1~T 1:1u8t 1') (; loc 2.t Gel an.l lJ: .l'incJ. . Ij~hc

is 'Jh i to ,.,; uprer:1acy a n .J ""Hli to '.1oT!li n : ti on. rr~l. i ;:.~ ;~ ll ', r cnac ,Y

Ol'ld (lomination makes () .r. t' 10. .L J ~

J l a c k Pl OD 0. real i ty. ',ilhe refore by c1e fin i ti on ·nli to

1 1 "ltll 0 1" I '/h ]. t c r fl ell 1) 'J C Ol"' 1 C\ ., ., r ~ "." r J. :l r •• L 1 _ _ J • • ......." _ c..; \....01... V., . ) ' " _ (_ ~,, ' ) • JIo ';;ov n r , _. t :i. s

1] t t "l "'l ('1- 0 ()1'1 p. r ,r- ;_1r'c1. i21 .,rr, -t} l 0. ir (._0 J.1 a{e over urCG 0 !)_ .... :J. J ' .. i _ J _ ,,) _ - ( 3C

1 1"'0 1)1 cn I ro / J_ . _ • 1 .1 , •••

-4641-

, -- l~' 1 IJ • t 1'·,.... '"' 1 " , ' ") ro'l

t . .. t : ; .:,.1 lo • . 1 ~

b,' t l: is a 't ti ttl 'lG. If

\n rl in th8 next nar cv:: r o.TJh , I thin1- i I: .l Oll just h o v ,= a

loo}[ a t it, the; idea that Blac}~ f3 sh ()u1 (l be 0\";a.'i~c1 l V ',',hi te

Liberals is di 8 COUr3.~ed? --- 'l' hn t is corr ect.

Th::tt one i ·1811-

tifi p-s t he cne!:ly , and the ':;n emy is th E.~ 'Jllite ma'1.'? --- Y0S , T

think ',)_Lj O do e 8 t hat, bu t I think an:'l in I La v e ~io. i d. in my

cvidence-in-chi sf and els8v,rhore t ha t ':",118n ,,',re speak of "fhitcs

vie sp eak of them as a totality of ll o r;cr in tlle:J .n:--: e th3 t tlJ8Y (10 '

are rc sr)onsiblc for the Government that dop,;-) 0.11 tIl l:! thin{:;3

that Blacks complain about. And \vhcn y ou comr)la i n or y ou

talk about ',-{hi tes in eeneral y ou a re talkirl;~ in that C ont ext.

l· .co .L

I thin1~ 'both \ )A ~jO and DPC aim to invo1 vo Qll the Dlac]{s

they could in this 8tru~ ~l e , i3 t hnt c() ~:,rect? --- l 'h8 .Y

c ertainl.Y sect to renresen t the; mn j ori ty.

BPC also permeating the entire 1 ife of the "81 etc]: man?

EVGry sphere which coul d poss ibl y lend it8elf to the i r ap~yco ! lch?

--- Il'hat is what you call to tality of i nvolvCIT1011t.

Yer3 , and ••• --- Th;J,t , 1. 008 not llJ;cessarilymcan that f1vC ( ;? (

mUf.j t d o thi s itself, i t mnst promot e 'Ni thin tho Bl a cl r c olll lTIuni t.Y

l. nsti tutions ':,Thich can be i"un on t ,heir o ",-rn, lil::e t -"l"le union

'({ork for in:-;tance, like the rel e vu,nt CLtl. r cJ- l or:38.11.:l~~ .;. tions,

like relevant cultural org aniso.tions, y ou uon't :-:;ce]~ to cnn-

trol the s e, you don't seel-:- to on or a t e th 8 ~;e ,'I OLly;;; c:l f, in

these areas yourself, out you are merely p romotin,~ their cOf:ling

into hein .~ , so t ha t J3lacl~s can have their own or[,;a n :l c-ation3

looking a fter their interest:J .

/m 'l if rou Ilon't have s ome :Jo r t o f cO 'lt rol t })nn :/0 t o.re ..

not n ecessarily ,"~ oin['; to have a united f31 0,c ),,: l 1 a;~ ;~ that c a n

;;n r;ak I:lith on8 voice event lla1 :ly , nre you? --- :ell , you 'lon 't ( 3(

" ri ,.... ,1 / , . . .

-4642- 91 : 0 --~-

noed Q control. I thin1" YOtl nee 1 8, cor:. .10n :i. l ent.i t 'r ~lJl · l a

corill .. on SO I't of orient a tion. I..1 i k e ~ \.; II ~;~n' t have Ltny

control ov(~r .' Fe Clnd BPC do s sn' t lav e any con tro 1 over ~n .

In effect therefore BPC do esn't s Jem to have an r di r0ct '.

control over DIQct students, this i3 ' ) ~\ .'0 ' :; field, bnt tl1.8

triO have a COrl1l:1 011 i deology an. l~l they all owe alle{~: i Qnc e to

that corrm on i.Jeol0 8Y .

Doth BP '] and ~3!\SO then involve themselves thrOll(~h projects

ll1 virtually every sph0re r/hich they f el t they could? The

education2.1 sphere, the workers' sphere, ·t.312.ck r elin; ion or (1(; '

T3laclc rr h e oloc y as you call it, y on '.'/ont JJl ac )~ 11 r088, you '.',' ·1ntc (1

Black banks, yon \'1orke(l throu:3:h lit ~ rQcy, CO[ll1 'lunity Tll'oject3,

to (~ et to the people in the ruraJ. ·1.r8 ::.18 , etc.? --- Ir o, ~)tl :)O

I have riot had any c: vic1ence of B:PC projects really .

T3ut

'['110n you have symposiw118, s8minar:~, form:l .tiol1 ::;chools,

rallys, you put out publications, etc. r .. hich 0.1'0 0.11 di t' p.ct(! cl

at publicisin.(~ n.nd pushinc this certain 01 j octr • anrJ ;",00.10 of

' ::,\ :-;0 and BPe? --- Ilainly DPC, ye s .

Ti3..inly BJ'C th r;re? --- Yes .

110vv is all thin used for conGcir;nti ~3.tion purIJo:::;cc'? 'Ie

d efined .~i os terday what wets meant ;JY con8ci cnti~~ ation? --- .n.o,. . . .. .. .

1 V/ou.lc1 ;') ay mo~~ t of it is u~-;ed ]lreci:Jcly f or \".;hat ,'lO ll. ~o.id

earlier on, 'f/hich in to 1:1c:.d co the orr';o.ni;:;:-t. tion );J 10 VII1 o.n:1 ' lC (~cpt ocl,

to p- xplain the orc:anisation to the D80r;1(~ "lho :jhall e'Jcntlla11y

form thr-: mC[,1 b ; r::;hi p, :rOu. leno· ... ·.', thi n i 0 thr:; o.ir .

J:ave you come acro;.·s any ~: t :l, .J-om cnt :J in \ .lo(!\1.m r;Jlt~ t hat

0.11 c ho nro 1 ec t ;-; are IT 88. J. ... r;J f or con :~ c i 0nt i;-; 'ltion? --- T t C 1J 1d . ~ ~

Ti ~ ,').1 lV / •••

-46 4 3-

:' I) P r. i f'i (' a1 1 i r p r.. n' t:'> m 1"" , Y' . J _ - _ _ . .... _ .............. v .. ~ . .. i. :; ~ ... v '"J ..L •

",ould th ey be ',vrong or would · they be ri ;...:, ht? --- I thin '~

it ",'oul d b e cC l'1" e ct in g eneral, but I thilll~ a ~~8. in it nust be

said that b oth :..> A;;Q and BPC conc e i v::lbl,Y [or instanc e coul d l)e

involve d in a p roj ect purely for a GSi ;-] tallce \'lhere nece8 8Cl r y .

Dut <.10 build U] the (;ood '!r.ill of th e or~o.ni 8CLt ion? ---

~orry?

ro build UT) ~ ood\'lill for the o rGani~)atioll? --- I am saying

for no oth c.: I' purIJose exc ept }i Ll l e ly fo r o. s8 i~J t aJlC8. .L\.nd thi r:

l8 C onc civ:Lble. (1 0 )

Di d, they according to your l:nowlec'l3o en~;ac e i~l any s uch

acti vi ties purely f or that type of rurpo s e? --- Y P;;- , I 1,'/ould r-, ay

for instaY}.ce -"'/hen stud.ents ll1 the v a rious carnpu s;J es in aYl cl

a round Durb3..l1. '::3nt on strilce, c oul (1 n o t have the ir norm 3.1 lf1 c'll s

1 . 1- C') l :...e •• ! •• ,

to p roviiG lunch.

r.: r. I ·~o o l.lley buyin~ fooel for 8tu'lents, and this is some f on11, of

project, vvhich is not to con~Jcient i s e any on e , it is just to

aS8i3t naturally t he student8.

DU t t h e ~tll:}eJ1t3 you ~] :.-ly './8re on . .) tril\: I:? ? :\rvl th.3.t is why ( 20. .

they v/(':; ren't ::::,;r:;ttinG food? --- They 1,"l"J I'e on ~Jtril~e on their own

s team.

~; trike? That is not correct. '.70 --.-er8 hel:p in~~ to g ive .l" ood.

':Ie \'lore asked to ~ ive food an d \':e (·:avo foo el .

·'-/i t hout that food they \'.roul ri J (l iTe h a.J ei tl ' cr to !'!, o baclc

or leave the univor:J ity or Gomethinc:? --- '/ell, thi s is a pos tu-

lat ion y o l:no ':! , tho..t ~ro u c ~l.11 ffi 3.1ce.

1h8.t

' :n ~ L t hey have t o ,:, et t h ei r £ oorl ') • • •

I f Y Oll {lon ' t [' c ed them

rr ll ('I" ': iO ul ;l 1 :1."''' C .( '1' on c ~ . /

o ), t t 0/ ...

-4644-

they 1ere sittin~ .

And you ailed tbe 8trikine stlllents? --- This 1S y our con-

clusion.

:tas thClt a situation of confront ,'lt ion? --- 1hi ch on e?

This one with the s tudents 3triLin c~!'? --- ,"/el l, one \\!ould

h ave to ::;0 in to thl~ indi vi clual Lleri t8 of the strike, an 1 I don't

have all the facts now. ..\.s I so.y I clon' t le.no,,'! wha t \',rClS the

bac keround 0 f the strike. :\.11 that happenecl ':v 3.8 that ;,j r.

Looclley anu I were 8i ttinc aroLUld, they phon eu ancl r-;o.i 11 to llS (lC

they n eed for. Okay, at such - they o.rc at such an~l :Juch :=1.

p lace, could we be of assi;;to.nce. If ~.-/C ne8d t o \ve C3.n ch ,:.:U'g e

them, is it alri~ht to {;O an d g et t he foo (.l, 8J1. l1 'Ne went to

.~ et the food ancl b rouGht i t to them.

~ o you assi 3t8d them "\-.ri thout an inv80tigat i on into t he

meri ts or dem eri bs of their actions? - -- "/hen p eople ne ed food

they n8Gd foo u .

Is this the 3~SO attitucle?

1st h3. t t he .J '\ ~O at ti tu ::1e? --- H 0, th::" t 18 -(,'h3. t I In eC1.11 by

hol p in,: :1(~ ople ';n a state of .need a t a pa.ct icul':lr mo ment, no ( 2(.

mat ter w":lat prevents them from eettin c'3 tho foocl.

00 even if they were ma]~illi~ the mo;;t llnr(J 3. ~.J oJ lable d8man ~ls

. . . .

ima..ginabl e? --- '1'1e h a d nothinG to d o wi th tllei r Jemanc1s or

with their actions.

needecl food, 30 '('Ie pave t hem food. <..J

And if it had been 'Ihit9 stu l1ent8 ',"/.10 Cl.slujd for fooo., Vlould

y ou have g iven them thon food? --- They Clre no-~ ll ccc88arily our

elector~_te. bLJ.t I In'JO..l1 it vlo lJlcl er end on t h e !1 a:- tlcular ci r'cw'l1-

., an c ...,s , I mom'l if I lJ:r>et lJit c :.; t u l en~~ ,.J ~ ~OJl ;; rl 1 ~ r C nn t 11c b e'J.ch

in D u r b an a '1 ' 1 the y are s t r :J.l1 1 e (1 011 c1 t 11 P :J ~ _ 0 C (1 f ( 0 (1, I ,_ .r, :..; l.l r 0 ( 3:

, "0/ 1 ..t.. J •••

-4645- PI .~ I ---. '10 l cl be c ompa0siollat c cnou .nJ to c 'Lrry fo ; ,1 to them •

','' 'as the portrQyel . of ·.·.·hi t c;-', t~1 0 ', :3.y they ':~f - .re p OI'trA.Y el,

in the dOClU:1ents, and in sp -'.3 C l10S , an r- at rallies and ~; nlln;1I'O,

etc., conduct cd by i)oth these orC:3.l1i o3.tions part of the c 011-

:Jcientisatioll P l-'OCCSS? --- IJo, elf) I ~3aiu it wet!] ~Qrt of your

f . ttl ' 1 I~' , tl . 11"8 - par, your CJ.!18..J..,YS1G, c. c _. 1nll1C y our cOJ":1.rlon p ro 12m.

Thera is ta11t, ,lt especi~l lly the BOC inaur;ural convention,

of no collabora tion ',"lith the "/11ites or the Government Jurinc the

s t rUG ("~l e? l\re you fa.miliar wi -t;h that l")hra G or r,'OulJ y ou like

me to refer you to this? --- Yes, I ,"f3. (-~ r G[e rrcd to that thing (10)

c 'lrlier on.

You recall that? --- That 13 correct.

stru[; ,';le by uefini tion, \';h8n doc~> th e ;~tru c:: ~~le encl.? ---- J\ !~ trug .sle

encls I think when a definecJ. ,~oal is uchicvc d.

.:~uld ,.nn' ai", ; ',r:: ) ~ ''') I\ ~)'O ,~ Jf'o"l? - ; • i ...... ...,. i '" ~ ..... l :J L-4. • '\ cl TJ ,"-(1 , 1 d_l1 . 1 ~ ,/ :J ~--: o ; :1. , lrl t ho.t

--- I think \-:e have cOl1st.Jl1tIy :3aid it, it i0 Ii bor,~_1tion.

IT ow the lJoint is it en(ls thon \.'/h cn you CLchi eve your vi dory,

i;:) tha"t; it? ,"hcn you have achi oved (, 'lhat ,you h:'=l\T C~ \"iOJ'l ted? --- lIm.

HO\"i if .~rou h ave no collaboro:tion with the .r~ litc; : ~ or tho ( 20)

:J'ystem or the Governmen t <.lurin·')' the strug'~lc, \"/h ere does the

'l)criod of 'uar,~r,aininr~ come in? --- I d ave GCliJ. it 1)cfore , 1_ thaD

8 t~rted , actually. ":nlen :J;\SO forrnulatlJ !J t he rCGolu tionG about

the atti tudeo of 131ac]c ;itudento to DQJ1tU t=) r-} LlCQ"t.ion, to 8 Cr)::,r a te

universities, ' :llc1 so on, u~ually o:t the tail end t b(; ]'c i ;:; 0.

}lrovision for conmunication of tl1i 8 tot} c au thori ti 88 C onc c ~~n c d_ .

-4646-: IILl) .

need t '.lcir p ermission to/hen .rOll rl. .nt to ~'et into their Clr :"13 ,

a.nd you usually apply for this , but th e fact that ;:,r ou :lre

referring to t118rc is "wc shall not rv'ork Vvi thin or ,,'",ork on

a policy as defined by the system", this is what we rec;ard

as collabora tion.

Do ~rou a8rce wi th me that to bar ~);Qin wi t 11 the Goverl1J~1ent

Clnd the ',mli t e oystel!1 would mean to collCLbora te rTith them? ---

IT 0, I \\'oulcl n ot a3ree vii th that.

Hot a {)'ree wi th that? --- Iro. <....) (10 /

:rho. tis the eli fferenc e b etWeen b3.r .n~ainine" ':/i -eh 8011180n8

D.nd collaboratinr; '\'li th someone? --- I ':;ill just cle~'inc ' .. ,rhat I

mean by collaboration. iNorking vvi thin a plan a8 c1 r "nvn up

by -'eh e SY;3t em for in :::tanc e. . '/1 J t 1 r:I ' .J...' C""' l' ' -' 11 t I , ..-. -1- '::l 1"'1 ro t 1C l 'v r l v l . .) _ ......... L \.A, -' Vcw.loJ, '/·.rh r~ l' 1., ( 'I r"

t ........ I .... A.. .. "

it is enC? or Urb;ll1 Bantu Cow1cils, but you :3.re collnl )or ~1tinG

1n tIl8 S8n~c that you are particip atin~ in 0. r ro Gr .~lr' ·lL} e which

3.8 moant to be for Y<?u, but dr ·).v '11 u l by tJ".8 very pers ons you

CLrc directine yourself to.

Then you have the same phrase - "thc; rc will b e no collabo-

ration wi th the \'/hi'te3 in mCtppinc; out the ]J oli tical dir ection"? ( 20 :

That is corr2ct.

IIovv does that tipe up ':-.ri t h your ••• ? --- Ho',:,; that pO.r ti-

cular usa r.;c of the word "coll · ·.bor.:l tion'f implier~ a '.'Jo l"'lcing ·Yl. th

' ~/hat poli tical clircction d o :IOU h o. 1.:-; in );~ind? --- \ny .

How th r-:n i;;n' t the bar ,,";aining nrocc; ;;] the m,J,ppin;~ out

of t _1Q political direct '-on? --- Ho, i L 'i, 8 Q r.l Atli orl. ()f 8,cnicving

a }articul o. r re~ult. .lhcn .lou tal] of no.! ) inn; a p ol it :Lcal

"'here shall ':,' 0 first focus our att ( ~nti on. ) 0 ':,' 13 '- ,, i r' C c t 1.r- ( ..J( ) \

selv Q;:i to / •••

-4646-

n e ed t llcir p ermission -/hen ..rO ll w :n t to .0'e t i n to their a r eas ,

a nd you usually ap ply for thi s, but th e fact tha t y ou :lr8

referring to there is " WG s h all not r:ork 'vvi thin or '/Jork on

a policy as clefined by the system", this lS what vve reGard

as collabora tion.

Do ~rou l1sree wi th me t h at to bar ~ :Q.in wi t Il the GovC r l1Dent

a nd the -{J11i t e system would mean to collClbora t e 'Hi th them? ---

ITo, I ,,'~'oulcl n ot aGree vii th that.

Hot a f1'ree wi th that? --- lTo. u (10)

.'Iho.. tis the eli ffe r enc e b e tw \.~en bG..r n~ainin{" '.vi th 8011180ne

and collaborating 'a i th someone? --- I ','iiIl just c1e _~'inc ,:that I

mean by collaboration • Working vvi thin a pl3.ll a~ d r 'nvn up

. by the ~Y8t em for in :~ tanc e.

it is eRe? or Urb:1l1 .Bantu Cowlcils, but you ,'1ro collo..l) o r :.)t inr;

in the S8n :::; 0 tha t you are pClrticip atin,~ in cl r: roGr ,~l,ml;l e nhich

18 m 8 3l1t to be for you, but dr~ nYn U} ) by t J".8 v 8r,y p ers on s you

are directine yourself to.

Then you ho..ve the same phrasc - "thGr c will b e no collabo-

r a tion with the rnlit e 3 in mappin(; out the J) olitical di l"oction"?( 20 :

--- That is correct.

HOvY does that tipe UJ) -,-"i th your ••• ? --- 1] 0 ';{ tll.a t parti-

'?hat political direction .1 0 :l OU hal ,':; In );,in (-l? --- \n,r ,J •

Now th ~n i sn't the bar.r;aining n rOC 8;.; ;3 t h e m·,, ) r) in:~ out

of t h e political dircct -.. on? --- lJ o, i L j_;j cl ffiRtJ, O(l. nf 8.c nicving

a pClrtic ul o. r re; s ul t. .'fhen you t a l k o f na!) in n; a p ol it ical

l i 2. ection y ou a rc talkin{~ of r1 ro.·I·/in~() of rlCln~; , i n otr.l.8r \"lor rl ~~,

'-'he re; s hall ',-; 0 fir ~Jt f ocus our a t t r;nti on.

oclVG ~-' to / •••

-4647- D, .0

~ elves to all the Jishops of t he count ry or do .. , "" "

dir ,ct

\"hi te s , or 10 ne clir'ect our:JGlv8G t o the s! ortinG \'vorld? This

is all 1 apping of a p olitical proc8 . ..I s. .;ow rJhat \ve are

saYlllg is that we don't vV'clnt to sit dO\~.r1 1 wit}1 ,ire Attrlell,

and plan VIi th him vvha t stel s rJe shall tCll~e.

;-- i t do\".n on ou.r O','~l as Blacks arl1.1. 1,·vorl\: it out.

But then how r:luch Ci ve and ta1cG i G the r e l";'Oln (')' to be . , ;)

at the bare:aininc s ta:;e? --- Iell, thi s i3 :.l hi 8torical q le,.,-

tion. I thin kit r.1epends entirely on hi ;,)t ory, i t .JoDc:-lcl G on (10 )

It depends certainly on thing:-:,; like outsi cl.e nr8ssu rc, no-one

lG10 'NS, we cannot llrescribe Cl synthesis, Ct synthe sis h~':il ~lenG.

''"/ha t ,y ou can prGscri be is a pos~i bili ty of th~ t > C' .... l· ,.... _ _ LJ t.,J 3.nd

a!:lti thesis comine toeether, the fin ,'ll r e sul t cann ot be c a l-

cnlated in fine mC~8urement.

Do you anticipate during the barg ainine that the :. 0 ',','i1 1

b e g ive 3l1d tal<: e from bo th side s? --- ~;ll:CC 'y(~r;~, I :10.

There are i n dic ,ttions in the documents t l la t 13l :"1ck f o'ncr

portrays aD. all or n othinG i 1.'13.;'38? --- (1'. 1'. :~o ~~r~ ot in t r: r vcno ;J ) • (20 )

l' ')

J .,1 . '-1 r ,\ TT ")1 j1 'L,~{ J~_ jti J J ) ~ .

-------------------------------------------------------- - ', • 'n "T""' --;Tr T • 1 \. • ! ~ L J, i . Jl.J • J • 'rhi s i G an in the air a r )lu,lcn t a t t he moment,

L y Lord.

~here is sLlch (.~J pa~ ; ) 'J.n; c i n tho - ',/(:;11, tll (~ l ocu-

ment 3 rcf c l'rc ~l to ,ye :3 terd~1y r.re r c on Bl o. c Y.: r O',·; r:; r.

~ ~ "J . '0 (' ,., r , m 1. I • I. • I , • r l 1 \ ' 1. :

., r T ' c ~ · --- ( " , J ' ) ' ' '1 on' t tJ1l.nk

lJ'J.s i c].l ly , 8 0 i T ': IG are t _.l l:in~, 1.

(' 'Y ' 'J l' n / "" ' .. ~ I ···

- 464 8-

. " I I , •

... I r:ant t o rc~ cr V O Ll t hen t o ~ l ett - r \ ' ;~. i c h ':'~ :~ r.J'iG \ cll

I r e f e r Your Lo '\'} ;.;h i r to Gen · ral ~xhi b i t : ~. 5.

, I '; .. I I I C') -LJ ) ~ 1 • .:.. 1 J 1../ \. J. . , I ,

l r ~ . '.) (') . .> U l_ \"':: ~-: ~ rne f) 0 i nt ? It

", ~ T T' 'T '1 J' I L . ..: ~ I , t ~ J J: r rh~l) G

.~ ou ':!ou l u lo o l(~ Qt t h e s econd T') a O' e of t hQt do cu_men t. - ,.J

I f i OU

h elve; Q 1001: , I t hill1-: -r 0 U C 301.1 ,-ro·l - ':1 rt ' 1 .1- J'l l , .J v '--- ,--"v Lr Lr ., t ll£;

••• " p uttinc D \'.'/11 on to th e n.ar rore ror " - . 0 you G C n t h a t? f.l~hc

t h i r d l i ne? --- -[ 2'0 .

' I f;lL' l ,, -I- , "" ,,) 1· ,') \TO 1 ~ ( . IJ \ ~ J. • _~

tinp' the rr r ass from LUl l eI' t ho -nl it c ;' (~ e t of t he 'Sol t on • , :> L..~

II3.11 cro vvu '::h o a re intent only on ,S Gt tin '3 Bl a c k \vor] ~e r ;~ '

~upp ort on l y ;:1:] f a r Q;') t he i r O': ID ·' .11itc Do s i ti o11 8 of

[";1"11,'1 t l' c:~ . - ~ - " ...>

t h e t yp ic a l role of the ,~.'hi te TJi bc r a l ;3 ':,h o '.-/ill befr ien d

r31 :'l c ks in a s i tU I~l. tion ':Ihere t h:; ir 0 :In, lllon cy a n d }Jo"ve r

are ••• ?. up, which 1'01 G 0 f t hei r8 t he y 1.-rill n e ve r '; l ve

up of their 0 \"1"]1 a ccord.

by ~~ e tt inG Black work er s to r e alise t ha t '\/c o.re on

th8 i ~(' si J e, tha t our fu ture 1 S bo und to {~ et h8r ~md

our f utur e lies In our han c18 , no t i n the hOJ.1 1.8 of t he

f e \V "j> i t 8 Li b eral s '.",ho 'lr c ben t on l ,l on ;: ; ~;. vin .:~ t h (; i r

they c cm con t rol an d ll 3C Blac k 1i!o r.}r;r ~ ; ':;h 011 t h 8 time·

s uit s t hem . 1'11 e y a I' e 11 0 t f i [; 11 t i n:3 fo r () u r 1 i 1)(; r Q t i 011 ,

th8~l a re j u s t ma int a i n i n G th , .... 0pr re:;~ o r ~~ tatu. ~:; quo.

, ,.... J.. .J is s o vcr~r ~L

,3n inch J.n ou r f i sht, o s ec i 'J.l 1,! on t il', Lo.1)OL r ::CC"l C .

/e l on ' t n '3 8 I t

i" f or/ •••

(10 )

( ~2() )

( jO )

-4649-

It is for then to mr: fJ t ') .. -- . . . - no ·t lro ·.· ·0 "J, ., v

nothinl~ to . ~J' i ve. - ~. ", e ,',(';·n t 8.J.1 l1 ':1 C ~ 13. V en ' t r.: 0 t •

stron.~ d o not shift from the nrinci110 ;; that 3.1""2 roo ~ .

,lear to Black people, an.'1 the S.lre li Del'"'nti on of

.\zania f:"om the ,'/hi te foreiGn e.cG.: r

How '10(;3 that tie up 'vvi th the Ci ve an ':' tate \'/hich you peo :/lle

envisaGe? --- I thinlc it tics up beautifully.

Perhaps :rou could expand on t:l3,t? --- It ,..., ' :'J l' (1 '1 () " ~n aC"" • ..) . : . • J ~.L v V . lS

- you liJ1.oW I have been Bayins all a1011 ,j , that it is for t hen

to makc concessions, i t is for them to c'3 i VC, W8 have ~T ot (10 )

nothing_ ~\"e ho.ve (~o t nothin;,:; : )l). t a paper poli cy for thi G

thinl1g. ~ :;c may have for instance a vi GW of the l{ind of

state we '~-.,rant, Vie may have a vi ew of the 1-cincl of rel'.ltionship

':,'e VI ~ nt bet';/een ' vlorkers a.1.1. '.l cmploY'3rs. Th'J,t i;-.; allan }')21')8r.

1 t i 3 no thin:~ that we - it is purely a 3,yst 8 r1 tha t · .... 0 .~re

:'1ain t aining 3.ncl tJl at v.ro 0 \"/11 af3 :31 ac ]:3,

:jOU contrast w'hat you have dr8::ll:1 up on r allor nith '·:,That is in

exist enc e, 8.11 !i the pro cess is an as!"3imil·J,ti on 0 () t',veen th c t -,'JO

:1i ffer8.n t stan.dpoints. . l3 One on pape.:.. .... , it it

8 3.Y8, ... ·/e have .r,;ot nothin .~. (20 )

t ::.e ;.1hi to system \vhich mUfjt make conce ;J sion to .::lcco mrl1 oc1ate to

the IpI11anc1s of the Blacks. 'fhis fi ts i n. very beau tifully ''-'n th

\'lhat ','-;8 have been sayinG. I J.011' t even LnoYJ 1:1110 thi G let ter

",/aG Ji .t:'ectecl +0, I om just talJ.{in~ the oretically.

Apparently to friends l11 Durban. Pre:-..:umably B\ .',U :lor1:ors.

~]o that is your explanation of th~lt particula.r thc!-:l c Gxpres8cd

·"hr..re? Y v v --- es.

DY TIr~ COU '1 r.: You 8 C e , the l! 0 in t t hat CO UJ1 r 3 eli s r c all y t r,y-

in::; to '.lri ve at i ~J the f ollo ':/inS :

of ·i v e/ •.•

· ' ~

-4650-

fr on! the ~.j3tcm? --- Yes.

How it is y our eXp.L""'e;3s polic y not to '1'( CGGi (,ll that

basis that y ou - to v"or].: f or a total chcu [;e? --- I -I'hin \: the

ch ~ nGe i8 total in the Sill188 th~t it obvi ously implies a raaical

\.leparture from 1') 1"'8 0 e11 tly Cl. CC epted va lues , \ -~hich VCl.lu e~3 8.re a

total negation of our exi'J -cenc c, they 890m to '1.1' not

there.

fir s t inst ,ru1ce to l earn to aCCOl1lil odat e within the tot.:ll p O\'lc r

structure within the c owltry th8 very exi: -.t el1ce of Blelcts, ancl (10)

to make them a party to th~ fornu.lation of ueci ;'3 ions o.nd the

election of institutions that Govenl p eople. 1. 0',',' tlle rel c-

vance of this 8t '::tement i3 s imply 111 ~;'J.J' in ;:; t ha l~ ':Ie have :~ o t

no thinc to ,~ivc, ' the direction of conc e;:-3S10l1 haD 'o"ot to be; 111 '. -~

tC)rms of ~) r :1c tic a1 r 03.1i ty f rom one side, thcoreti c:J.11 it ,,'/e .r~ l vo '" '- .

only in that 1,','e ;r oy have our sta.nfil") oint -:/hich i3 our 1)olic ,V

.-:hich '."l8 may h ave to lea rn, to UGlc t;c C O r talll i -COr.1:J fron' in the

.f' t " .. p rocess OJ. D8 oargalnlIlE3. '}o f.l i crht r et for l.n '·' GC111 Ce if c.) l .'

- -, C\ , . \..,

take t he Hhocle sian si tU 'l tion, - f1-h 1 :.1',. OInO, 1,) Q P (-, r r 01 i c :,r

( ;:;0 )

:~m i t h I'1U8t

mal:e certain con cessions, 1.f1dl OJJ.10 fl U ~T:' ~ 1!1UJc8 certai n conce ~':;0ion8 ,

in order that they arrl ve a t the ll1i :J.,1l 0 of t he rO::l'1. One

'-Kln t a transi t i on (j OVC ~~11ElCl1 t :LO r t'/vcnty 'T r c .'7'I -1"',.... II J . .;;.<.. >.} ,

the other mi cht SQy " "v e 'X.311t i t fo r si :{ l~ l onth~J ", a]1 (l rJri tuin

then come::::; up in thc~ L1id 11e allJ :::;2.Y8 ' ;Ll r i r;ht , '\-10 \'jill n a] :e it

t V/ O "\{ ears I" ... , thi s i s In a scn:J 8 Q3simila tin~:; ~ )oth

the barc;aining p r o c8 ::J3 , bllt rkhon.o h2.:-3 ''3 ot nothin(~ , ;Jn d :':'> i,l i t h

h3. S .rr 0 tall. , ' 'rhey look at the rCQli t:/ :; i t he sitL ati on .

( 30 )

b,'l,r': 3.in/ ••.

-4 651-

bargain you are really tryine to alleviate y ur posi tion,

you are not getting the total change which you see as the

only future that you have in thi ~) country? --- I think rtiy Lord,

there are certain limits to what you can expect from the person

you are bargaining .with, as the ultimate analysis. For in~tance

I mean we will still reject the fact that you a re on the roll,

but on a separate roll, you know, you may want to be 011 a

c ° nun on roll. Thi smay be very basic in the whole bargaining

process, but there may be certain things where it does not

really matter all that much if you give in. ~o now we are not (10)

talking about a concrete situation, so I cannot point out at

what is basically acceptable and from which you may not make

any departure and something in vvhich you lmow - i tis give

and take ••••

So you don't contemplate a complete surrender? --- No,

certainly, I mean we are working against an exi~3 ting syst em

Tt:hich may insist on certain things • • • in a pru"ticular fOIT,1.

I mean the ultimate result of the whole barcaining proce s s 18

highly theoretical at the moment, you Imow, becau~;~ e i n the first

instance the very, very concrete c1 emands has hardly been formu- (20)

lated even by you lmow Brc, but that . bargaining is fore s hadowed

in the thinking,is what we are trying to sUGg est here.

Til ]. ATT J ELL: Because I put it to you tha t in fact the irna(~ c

proj ected is one of an uncompromisinc "all or nothing " stand?

--- Can you su~geGt that ••••

And that the bargaining proc8;38 of g lve and tak e is not

what BPe has in mind? --- You sug~: e3t tha t this le t te r emphas i s es

the ••••

Hot only this letter, it 1 S repre sent a tive of numerou s ( 30 )

other ••• ? --- Well, why would they s p eak of conc ecs ions ? If

bar r-;aining/ •.•

-4 652 - BIEO

bare;ail .ine vvas not foreshadowed even 1n this letter.

",That do es it say about concessions? --- " .?e don't need to

meet anyone halfway or anywhere, it is for them to make

concessions" •

Hot us? --- Hot us. Now the word "concession"implies a

volun tary conc ession - a voltmtary agreement on the basis of

pressure certainly, but voluntary on the part of the person who

is presented with the pressure, so that '\'/hite society here is

going to malre concessions. Now if he wanted to express

what you are sugeesting, he would have said "we shall take (10)

it over whether they like it or not" which is a different state-

ment al togetll er.

Have you come across any statements "tha.t we shall take

the land"? "That i t has been stolen from us, the wilful

o'Mlers"? --- I can't say certainly, I can say to you thi snow

is not SA ~)O policy or Bre policy but I can't say that every

particular docLunent that is there does not say this.

'~~ ';V11 en it comes to the documents, now you were .••• (Court

intervenes).

BY TH"G COU ~:1(r: You sug~ ested that the documents said thi s ,

they said this that they would talce the land? ---

Tnt. ATT·//ELL: Yes, my Lord.

BY THE COURT: ·,vhich document?

(20)

r" R~ ATT '.VE'LL: I will have to g o through them fl}y Lord, I can put

them to the witness tomorrow specifically, at the moment it is a

Beneral sug~ estion.

BY TH~ COUItT: Isn't the GUG~ e stion that they are entitled to

the lan<l?

.. :R. ATT ',','r:;L L : Yes, my Lord, that the ·.'H1i te8 are here illegally,

that they are foreigners, and that t he land has been 3tolen. (30)

BY TH IJ / •••

1

- 465 3-DI }~O

~y TH ~ I; COU ] T: Yes well, that does not mean they a re O" olnC'J' to

take the land, it means tha t the y f r' e l that they h ave some-

thing to work for, they feel that they are the r i ghtful owners

to the land and that is there ultimate ~oal.

I will canvass the p oint and put it to the

wi tness specifically possi bly tomorrow, My Lord, vIi th Your

Lordship's permi s sion. Then to your evi den ce in this parti-

cular case, TIl r. Biko, you said I t h i nk in y our evidence tha t

you followed this case closely from i t;:3 inception? --- Yes,

I have, My Lord.

Through what means did you follow it? --- Mainly throug h the

'Dress • ...

(10)

Yes, anythinG else, or just the press reports? --- \~lell, you

do Get veople - when I talk about this case really I am even

p r e- ',i ating the actual court sitting , I am talkine; about the arres t s

of the gentlemen, the whole proce s s of wh eths l"' they are ~ o inG to

be cha r e ed or not, the release of othcn"'s. I talked to people

"Nho had been in jail, who had been subject ed to the s ame sort

of cro ~)s-cxamination th9. t I presume t }l ese men 'Nero, n ot cro s s-

examination, interrogation, in jail. ( ? O)

T' eople arre s ted at the same t ime a s the accu ~~ ed? --- At

the same time.

In connection °Ni th thi s court ••• --- Yes, becau:,:; e I wa s

wondering what vra s c oine on, I di dn ' t Imo w what was at i ssue,

I had n ot be8n arrested you s ee, an ~l the f3 e a re all pe ople wi th

whom I had been at one stag e - you Im ow, wo r ked . I am t a l k ing

a bout tho8e I ]mew certainly.

N ow who specifically d o y ou have i n mind t h a t If/as :J.rr es t ed

and t hen re l eaed wi th whom v ou conducted (Ii 3cu~Gion s? --- Oh , I am ' .

referring to T,:oha p e who i s n o w in l( ingwi lliams t () Wl1 , t hi s i s the ( 30 )

man J / •••

,

- 4654 - BI KO

man I spoke to.

Do you MON this r, ohape? --- . YGG, very vlell.

As a fri end? --- Very Vlell, yes. And subsequent to that

of course, you lmow, there has always been a report promi .... ing

that they were going to be charged and in two Y/eeks time or

three weeks time or something like that, until just before

Parliament they atJparently were rushGd t ,o court and they v/ere

ch-3.rged.

'~Jhen did you first see the chClr c es which were brou ~;ht

against the accused? --- I have not seen the present cha rges (10)

yet, I saw the orieinal one.

What was the first inkling you had of the nature of the

charges? --- Before I saw the chare;e sheet?

·,"lell, I am not specifica.lly confining my question to when

you saw the actual charge sheet? When did you know what the

nature of the alleGations were? --- I think I 1mew it before I

actually got the charee sheet, I cmlnot specifically say now

vvhether I had - whel"e I heard from.

Could it have been from I.Iohape or would it have been from

press reports? --- No, it pro bably 'vyas a swnmary in the press (20)

I think, possibly in the Daily Despatch, there \'las a synopsis

of the charse sheet.

When VI<:.lS the first time that you were approachod as a pos-

sible witness in this case? --- I think I touche d on this point

earlier on, that I was appro rlched tOl,varcls the end of th8 year,

last year, in the second half certainly.

BY TH3 COU1r: You say you got a questionnaire? --- I ~ot a

questionnaire, that is r1sht.

r.IR . ATrr'.?ELL: Did this a s \: general questions like what is Black

Consciousness and Black :301iclarity anll tha t typ e of thi e or (30)

(lid i t/ . ..

I I

- 4 655 -

did it ••• --- No. ,

••• say "comment on t he f ollovving statement s, Black Con-

sciousnHss will lead to revolution or some t hing like that"?

-- Nei the r. 'Nhat it did was to as]c me historical questions

about SASO's fonl18.tion, in other words it referred specifically

to conferences of stuient organisa tions l\TUSAS, ::J ASO, UCI.T , and

it v'Jas apparently trying to trac e from the history the evolution

of Black Consciousness. This was the questionnaire I got from

Mr. Chetty.

Did you receive a copy of the indictment at any stage, the(lO)

original indictment? --- I did not receive it, I read on8 which

vvas wi th our re search departmen t in BC P .

Did they have a copy? ---They had a copy •

.'/hen did you see that? -- That mu r:; t be - I can't remember

now specifically, it could have b e en the middle of the year, I

don't mow specifically. It could have been before that, I

don't know.

\'/hen \\'a3 there a foll 'ow-up to that qu. I '; s tiormaire? --- '\"ell,

the follow-up was a telephone call from mr. Chetty saylng that a

subpoena was on the way which vIas in lTovember, the middle of ( 20)

Hovember.

And as a resul t of that what happen.ed? --- I carne up.

You came up? --- Yes.

JUld vlhom did you come and see? -- "/el1, I came to r,~ r.

Chetty's office. I had a con3ultation \"lith Pr. AlI Clway the

first time I was h ere.

~Tho all we re present du rinB that con sul t ation? --- ~ell, it

was a eeneral questionnaire, reall y h e V'!3.S asking u s for reSp On 3CG .

J{ijORPA I thi nk it wa s Drake Koka a n d Ben Hkoapa.

An d ~rour""elf, an d tIr. Al l a rlay? --- Th a t 1 8 r i8ht, y ec- . ( 30 )

.) 0 it/ •••

I

•

- 4 6 56 -

~o it livd s que .. )tions put and then th e t h r e e of y ou would

answer and ••• --- Yes, he vias trying to date us, date our

involvement vvith t h e thing.

How many consultations did you have with the Defence? ---

I had one wi th I\lr. Allaway, then. I had another one wi th r,1r.

Allaway subsequently - let me see, when now? It mus t have been

the beg inning of the year, this year.

Did that follow the same pat t ern? --- It was - no, we were

t oeether, just the two of us thi s time. He was as l\ing me my

comments, he was lool~ing at several d.ocuments 'r"lhich I didn't (10 )

lmow, and a.s king my comments on certain allegations lilce he

said were being made.

He showed the documents to you as he put the ••• --- He

read the document out to me anu said this is the alle~ation

about thi3 docwngnt, rvhat do you - \-;hat is your feeling on this,

and I gave him my impression.

Any other consul tations that ;yrou had? --- Then I had the

consul tations wi th Mr. ~30ggot now when he started ap pearing .

And who all were present then? --- Just him s elf and me.

':{hat form cl ill that consultation take? --- r.1ainly firHt (20)

I t hink he went over some statements that I had written on my

own 011. the origin of 3ASO and so 011. •••• (Mr. Soegot i ntervenes).

rI't. 00GGOT: (Addresse s the court but do es not speak into t h e

microphone) •

I R. ATT " l~iliL: My Lo rd, I s ubmi t i t is relevant.

BY TII"G COU RT: IIo w can you a ;.;k qu (~ s t i on G as to h O'N the other

side prepared its case?

To:t • . \TT ·.'/~LL: It is not b e t r/een the clien t and hi s coun s el, T,1y

Lord, or cl ient an d his attorney. These are third partie s , out sid

t hird part i e 3 . I s u bmi t t h at t h e r ul e of p r i lf i l e [S e is r e~3tric-( 30 )

t e d tol •..

- q65 7-

ted to the attorney/client relationsh ip, a privileGed an d

personal relationship, in fact I t hink t he c a s es ~ o s o far a s

to say that the third party who was a witnes s to an attornGY/

client relationship consultation can eVffi1 give evi dence about

tha t, r,!y Lo rd.

BY THE COU RT: You can't ask Mr. :3o .O'.D' ot to gi ve this man's <-> 0

statement to you, can you? ---

I am sp eaking now of ••••

DY Tl r~ COUn1': It is his brief, I m e llil what he haG in his brief

you can't ask him, and if he has a con sult ation he i s pr8paring (10 )

his brief. Can you in this indirect V'lay find out what vvhat is

in his brief?

r.:T1. ATT',VJILL: My Lord, that is a legal ques tion. If Your JJord-

ship wants it to' be arBued leGally I can let it stand dovvn.

BY THE COU n T: '/lel1, it depends hovi important it i s to your case.

MR . ~OGGOT: My Lord, may I just indicate, with respect I think

my learned friend is correct and that is 'Nb::! I have not objected

hoping that something relevant would emeree.

TIR . AT1rr~,TCLL: Let us GO at a little hi t of an 'u1g1e then. Did

you at a certain stage have access to the documents which are (20 )

now before court ? There are basically four volumes of exhibits?

Compiled of SASO, BPC, General file and one specifically con­

cerning the DPC and ;JA30 rallies? --- I think I look ed tl1rou[,;h

the documents that Mr. Allaway h ad eventually after he h ad

asked me for my quick respons e. IIe did not W811 t me to see the

documents first, he jus t rea d to me the rel evant part s . Th en I

look ed at them. I can't really i dentify them now, i t '."las ,j us t

a quick through ~lance.

,J id you familiari s e y our s elf vr.itl1 tl l e cont en ts? --- Hot (30 )

s eri ousl y . I j us t' loo ked t hr ou.rrh them a t t he time.

"~foul d/ ...

..

- 4658 -13IYO

'I'/ould you consid.er them to have been fairly repre r.- en-

tati ve of SASO and BPC? --- Yes, I \vould classify them as two

types of documents essentially. I think there are official

documents of SASO and BPC, which are in the forr,1 of TJinutes

of meetings, in the form of resolutions and so on. Then there

lS a \vhole lot of other little documents which I don't Imow

how they find attachment to this list, in the forn :. of speeches

by individuals and little bits and pieces of p oetry here and

there. This I did not necessarily reGard as part and parcel

of EFe documents.

I y.,ill put it to you this way, was there anything In any

of the documents that jarred or Grated you, in the sense that

you thought well, this certainly does not fit into our picture

at all? --- Yes, there would be at most two, possibly one.

And what would they be, or what would tnat one be? ---

The one was a letter purported to have been written by r:~ r.

Mayathula, it vvas on a EPC letterhead and signed by him. I

thinl( it was SUr)p osed to be sent to some nami bian group, I 8111

not sure whether it vias SI:lArO or Narribian H a tiono.l Convention,

(10 )

one of the t V/O. But anyv/ay, the letter vIas talking about a (20 )

complete sitdo\ffi strike or somethin~ of that nature.

This you say grated? --- Yes.

h l '? l'T h l' 'Nas there no suc po lCY. ---.c 0 8UC po_ 18Y. Actually

I as ].:od him abou tit.

You asked him? Yes.

\Vhen vias that? (Court intervenes ).

BY THE COU RT: He said he should ask him about it. --- ITo, no,

I asked him about it.

Oh, you a sked him about it? --- Yes .

\TT ','/E'LL: ') hen vIas that? --- That wa .:;) in IIovember la3t year (30 '

I think/ •••

-465 9 - BI J~O

I t hinl<, November or th ~ beginning of December, I am not surG.

nas this aft er he had been released? --- That \6S aft er

he had been released.

On detention in corulection with this case? --- That lS

correct.

l,~lha t made you go a.l1d a.s1\: him about thCJ.t do ClJJTIen t? --- It

looked silly, that is all.

Any other documents specifically which you can r ecall as

having gone against the grain? --- There was a poem also, I don't

know who wrote it, I have forgotten nO 'N. ;\n d I have forgotten (10)

the title, but it haJ a lot of k~ll words , something of that

nature.

'lIas it on BPC or SASO letterhead? --- I can't remember now,

honestly, I think it was just on plain paper but I can't remember.

Now when you went through the docun1ents, did you find that

the Wh,i tes were referred to in one or more of the terrns vlhich I

will now enumerate you, forget about the frequency at this staGe,

but that the ',"fhites were described in various documents as either

robbers, thieves, thugs, murderers, killers, rasci sts, TTazis,

Fascists, people out to exterminqte the entire Black nation (20)

from the surface of the earth, inhuman, brutal, flo G,,: inc; people

to death, and that tY-J)e of sentirne~t? --- I think one does find

some of the phrases in some of the documents.

And did you find the expression tha t the s e atroci t i (~s Vlere

commi tted every day as part of a pre-determi ned plan as I said,

to wipe out the Black nation from the surface of the earth? --­

That could have been the~e yes, I - ••••

Did you find that when you looked thro ugh the document s ?

--- I don't remember it speci f ical l y bu t I don't want to say it(30)

i f" not/ •••

...

I

-4 660 - 131 0

is not there.

Now that sort of talk, ",rhat do you think that :. ()rt of des­

cription of the "(/hi tes is coing to have on the Blacks who would

read that? --- Well, I would say this certainly occurs in ;jASO

and EPC Ii terature. I would s ay that it is not the preponderant

thing that is in SASO and BPC Ii terature, and I would say that

if you throw it out like that it is a1\','ays out of context

perhaps. The possible effect is the same as if we are dis-

c u s sing ',ct i c ,,,,",5, I think the words do have meaning, I am

not saying they have got no meaning, but I think they portray (1 0 )

no new feeling inci l ental1y, about ',Vhi te institutions, -'fhi te

society to Blacks. As I said earlier on, I think Blacks have

used more direct swear words about 'Nhi te society than this. I

think I must again mention the point vie touched on wi th Your

Lordship some time back, that one has to loolc at the terminology

1n the context of the analytical value of lanGuaCe , the meanine

of words in particular languages, that lanGuages of Afric aYl

origin certainly tend to att a ch meaning not so much to the

bare word but to the situation, to the emotion behind the word.

What might sound very stronG in fur~lish trans lated bac]·: f or (20)

instance in to Zulu or back into Tho s a sounds pretty mundane ,

and I did mal(G t h is concession a gain that J\fr ikaa ns has a

- you }:now, a comparati ve quality in this res pect va th J\.frican

1aneuas es, in that you you assume the ideom of the lanGuaj8s ,

you take the expression of the language, you do accommodate

what might seem to an English gentleman as a hard expre r3s ion,

\vhich put into Xhosa for instance means very li t tle. !~nd I

think I did quote to court s ome t e r ms that 8.re used in common

talk wi thout any s how of emotion amo!1..[;s t Afric8.n~3 vlhich vie tran3-

late t hen in to ~glish, becomes even GO strong as not to be (30)

• • •

• - 46 61-

BI EO

admissible to this court.

I think you personally have a particula rly fine command

of mglish, ancl I don't v'Iant you to nec essarily r e spond the l'cto,

unless you feel you don't have. ':Iould you a g ree wi th me that

both you and accused no.l for instance and accused no. 9 are

very articulate people 1n the English languaGc? --- I would

agree about t h e two of them.

You '.vould be modest about yourself? --- \~lell, I can speak

the laneua3e to SOI7le extent certainly. I don't sp eak it a :J well

as I speak Xhosa, let me tell you this. (10)

now the descriptions for in :J tance that the ''/hi tes are

intransigent, insensitive people out to actually exterminate

people f l.'"' om the face of the earth vva8 a pre-determined plan

• • • ( LIr. 30gGot ·intervenes).

;30GGOT: r.l y Lord, may I interrupt my learned friend. ','/hat

my learned friend lS putting in his que s tion . 18 in fact - it

seems to be a collection or a ski~1ing off of some adjectives

from various documents. I wonder whether in all fairn.ess to

the wi tness if he i (~ to be asked the sienific8.l1.ce of these word.s

an d their •••• (Court intervenes ).

DY TH E COURT: ','leI 1 , that i s wha t he said , he s aid i t cle penc1s

on the context of each word.

T.~R. SO~GOT: That i s perf ectly ;50, r:Ty J~ord , and that is 'Nh y I

r!ould sugs est, al thouGh I can't tell my 1 e Clrn e d fr i 0.n c1. h ow to

cross-examine tha.t in fairne .3 s perhaps the document s shoul cl be

put to the witne ss.

DY THE COU :11' : '" II • <3 ...... ,

1n its context.

U · ht ll g ,

the .rcply . ~oul J pro ba bly come back nra~n

perha.p3 we can looY.: a t one document.

( 20)

at BPe Z.7. It is a docum8n t whic h purpo r t s to cle o.l vrith (3 0)

~ )harp evill e/ •••

1 !

I ,

-4662- BIl:O

'''harpeville and it starts off wi th -"this document is set out

Have

to inform us about the events of a very traGic day in

our history, the 21st of r.~arch, 1960. On this clay

scores of defenceless Blacks, men, 'Nomen and children,

were massacred because they wished to rcgister their

rejection of the notorious pass-laws. i'

you r:"ot that? --- Yes. v

"The guns of the oppressor rang ~t Sharpeville, at

TJanga and at many other places in this cOlUltry. The

answer to the Black m&'1.' s 18mand for a fai r sha re in (10)

their land, \"las bullets. The incidents at 8h a rpeville,

Langa, Vanderbijlpark are merely part of a pattern,

part of a well-planned coldly executec1 plan to muzzle

dOVIl1 Blac k8 in this their land. ,~/e remember wi th

sadness the killin~ of our people by the ~Thite police

? . th . .•.••. In e IDlner ntrike of 1920, the l'!tabulenga?

incident of 1920. Now even in a recent namibian

strike. "I"le are 1 eft wi th no al tcn'13.ti ve bu t to see

this as a deliberate plan to annihilate " us. _ ..... - \Te(""'O .L J,.J.

That type of sentiment. IT ow before vIe commen t on that, (20)

perhaps you would also have a look at BFC J. 2 which is a Tribute

to the Late Nthuli 3hezi, vice president of t1Je Black Peoples

Convention, issued by the Black People:::; Conventi on. BPC J.2,

my Lord. I','ill you h8.ve a look at the t h ird parag r :lph of that

document for instal1ce : "The violent assasination VIas i n-

flicted by an agent of protection of ','/bi te ra!3ci.r1m,

superiority and op pre ss ion on our Black brother. I t

should not be re8arded as be in,rr directc;u tow{J.rds him

alone, but should be regar j ed as a •. ?. ~ssault on

t h e entire Black c onmuni ty. " ~n i th en i t carri es

on - " ,/ho can der.y t h at the r ava r;es , of p overty, (30)

.l i n ea ;~e/ •.•

..

I

Collection Number: AD1719

State v S Cooper and 8 others.

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DOCUMENT DETAILS:

Document ID:- AD1719-Vol81 Document Title:- Volume 81, Pages 4548 - 4676.