episode 197: the opposite of being spoiled: raising ... · when kids are turning 16 and 17 and 18,...

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Episode197:TheOppositeofBeingSpoiled:

RaisingFinanciallyResponsibleKidsWithRonLieber


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Hello,andwelcometo"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.Andtoday'sepisodeisgoingtobesuperilluminatingforanyparentslisteningbecauseIamherewithRonLieberwhohasbeenthe"YourMoney"columnistfor"TheNewYorkTimes"since2008.Beforethat,hewrotethegreenthumbpersonalfinancecolumnforthe"WallStreetJournal."Andyoumaybethinkingthat'snotmynormaltypeofguestandthere'sareallyimportantreasonIhavehimontoday.

Hisfirstbookwas,"TakingTimeOff:InspiringStoriesofStudentsWhoEnjoyedSuccessfulBreaksFromCollegeandHowYouCanPlanYourOwn."AnditwasaNewYorkTimesbestseller,buthismostrecentbookiswhyI'msoexcitedtotalktohimtoday.Andit'scalled,"TheOppositeofSpoiled."Andit'sallabouthowandwhenandwhytotalktoyourkidsaboutmoneyandwhattosaywhenyoudoanditwasalsoaNewYorkTimesbestseller.SoRon,welcomeandthanksforbeinghere.

Ron:Thankssomuchforhavingme.

Katie:Ican'twaittojumpinbecauseIfeellikemaybesecondtothebirdsandthebeesconversation,thisisprobablyoneofthetoughesttopicsthatparentstrytotalktotheirkidsabout.Ithinkthere'salotoffearandprobablymisinformationsurroundingit.It'sjustaverytoughtopictonavigate.Andespeciallytryingtofigureouthowmuchdowetellkids,atwhatage,andwhen?Andobviously,you'vedoneatonofresearchonthis.Sowhatdidyoufindastartoffabouttheimportanceingeneraloftalkingtochildrenaboutmoney?


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Ron:Well,it'sinterestingthatyoumakethesextalkcomparison,whichIthinkasanaptone,peoplehave,youknow,sortofequallevelsofdiscomfortaroundit.Andtheissuewiththesextalk,though,isthatthereisactuallyabiologicalimperativetohavingtheseconversations,thesesexconversationswithkidsstartingaround9or10or11whentheirbodiesreallystarttochangeinwaystheybegintonoticeorfeelemotionally.Withthemoneytalkthough,youcantalkyourselfintothisideathat,"Well,Iorwe."Wecanjustprotectourkids,shieldthemfromallofthismoneystuffjustalittlebitlonger.Andyoucankeeptalkingyourselfintothatuntilthey're16or17or18.

Butthefactofthematteris,isthatthey'rethinkingaboutmoneyandwonderingaboutmoneyandmaybecravingmoneyorspendingthatininappropriateways,youknow,startingthatsingledigitages,right?Andsoyoumaythinkyou'reprotectingthemfrommoneyorprotectingthemfrom,youknow,difficultdecisionsordifficultconversationsaroundmoney.Butletusnotforgetthatinmorecasesthannotthesedays,families,whenkidsareturning16and17and18,aremakingmaybethebiggestfinancialdecision,thebiggestfinancialcommitmenttheywillevermake.Becausecollegecostsupto$300,000perstudentthesedays,right?Soifyou'renotgettingthemreadybyhavingmoneyconversationsearlier,you'redoingthemadisservice.

Katie:Yeah,Iabsolutelyagree.AndIalsoseeacorrelation.I'vehadacoupleexpertsinchildpsychologyandhealthonthattalkabouthow,youknow,kidsneedexposuretoriskyexperiences.Andwe'reafraidtogivethemthosebecausewe'reafraidit'sgoingtocreateaphobia,butit'sactuallytheopposite.It'swhentheydon'thavetheexperiencesthatletthemdeveloptheirphysicalandpsychologicalboundaries,those"littlebitscary,riskyexperiences,"thattheythenbecomefearful.Anditseemstobeasimilarcorrelationwithmoneywhentheydon'thavetheinformationandtheydon'thavetheskillshavingactuallyinteractedwithmoneyinahealthywaygrowingup.It'samuchharderprocessandthey'remorelikelytohavetroublewithitthannot.Wouldyouagreewiththat?

Ron:Ithinkthat'strue.AndIlikethatyoubroughtupbothinformationandskillsbecausethoseareactually,youknow,suittwodifferentkindofparalleltracksof,youknow,conversationsandparentingstrategies.Whenyou'retalkingaboutinformation,thathastodowiththekindsofquestionsthatkidsmayaskyouabouthowmuchmoneyyouandyourfamilyhave.Andwhatitisthat'sappropriatetotellthemateachandeverymomentalongtheway.

Skillsmeangivingthemeverincreasingamountsofmoneyandresponsibilitytopracticewithmoney,tolearnaboutthedifferencebetweenwantsandneeds.Again,evermoremoneyandevermoreresponsibilityastimegoeson,sothattheycanmakemistakesandtheywillmakethemosthystericalmistakes.Andit'sgreatfuntowatch,right?Sotheywillmakethesemistakeswhiletheyarestillunderyourroof.Andtheconsequencesarelowerthantheywillbethanwhenthey'reincollegeorbeyond.And,youknow,itmightcostthemagoodcreditscoreorajobeven.

Katie:Yeah.Thisisthereasonafterreadingyourbook,IwassoexcitedtohaveyouonandtoshareyourmessagebecausemyhusbandandIhavebeenveryfocusedonthatwithourchildrenacrosstheboardasweraisedthemrealizingwe'retryingtoraiseadults,notlargechildrenwhodon'tknowhowtooperateinsociety.


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Andthatpartofthatmeansthatwehavetoletthemstarthavingindependenceinwhateverthey'recapableofataveryyoungage.

Andthenoncethey'recapableofsomething,weshouldnotdothatforthembutletthemtakeresponsibilityandownershipoverthatareaoftheirlife,whetheritbetheirlaundry,ortheirchores,orlearninghowtousesharpknives.Andtome,moneyskillsareverylogicalandequallyimportantextensionofthisbecauseifwelookatsociety,Iknowthatmanydivorcesarebecauseoffinancialdisagreements.

AndmanychildrengethugeamountsofdebtincollegeandpotentiallyIknowthere'smanyfactorstothatbutnotunderstandingandfullybeingcognizantofwhatthey'redoingwhentheygetintoloansandthere'sjustsomuchthere.AndIthinkthehesitationthatalotofparentshavemaybethatholdsthembackisthatthey'reworriediftheyinvolvekidsinconversationsaboutmoneytoosoon,thatit'sgoingtomakethemtoofocusedonmoneyortoo,like,moneygrubbers,likeworriedaboutmoney.Didyoufindanythingaboutthatinyourresearch?

Ron:Well,there'snothingaboutmoneygrubbinginparticular,butIdoworrythatthat'sasortofmisplacedconcern.Becauseifyouthinkaboutoureverydaygrown-uplives,thereisrarely,youknow,anhouroratleastasegmentofthedaythatgoesbywherewe'renot,youknow,thinkingconsciouslyandspecifically,oratleastsubconsciously,aboutthefinancialconsequencesofourgrown-updecisions.

Youknow,whetherwelikeitornot,moneydoes,infact,maketheworldgoaround.Andtherearefinancialconsequencesandfinancialchoicesthatwemakemultipletimesadayoftenwithoutevenrealizing.So,youknow,unlesswechoosetoabandoncapitalismormovetosomeplacewhereitdoesn'texist,thefactofthematteristhatmoneyisgoingtomatterandit'sgoingtomatteralot.Wemaynotlikeitthatway,butthatisthewaythatitis.

Andso,youknow,partofgoodparentingmeanshelpingtobringourkidsalongandgivethemabetterunderstandingofwhymoneymattersbutalsohowtomakeitsothatitdoesn'tmattertoomuch,right?Andthesearethingsthatwecancontrol,thatwecanwatch,andyouknowwecanattempttointerveneinavarietyofways,whetherit's,youknow,startingthemonallowanceatarelativelyearlyageorwatchingasthey'reteenagerstoseewhatsortsofsocialmediaenvironmentstheyfindthemselvesinandthekindsofpeopletheyfindthemselvesidolizingorpairingupwith.

Katie:Yeah,exactly.Soyoumakethispointreallywellinyourbook,"TheOppositeofSpoiled"andthat'llbelinkedintheshownotes.Idefinitelywouldrecommendparentspickitupandreadit.Butcanyoukindofgiveusanexplanationofwhytalkingaboutmoneycanactuallyleadtopeaceabouttheissueversusfearandanxiety?BecauselikeIsaid,Ithinkthatisthecommonstickingpointforparents,isthat,puttingthisknowledgeonchildrenwhenthey'reyoungisgonnabetoomuchforthem.Andthatit'sgonnacausethemanxiety.


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Ron:Sure.Sofortheparentorparentswhoareouttherewhodo,infact,havelessmoneythanaverage,youknow,earninglessthan$50,000or$60,000ayearinhouseholdincome,there'saprettygoodchance,dependingonwhereyoulive,that,youknow,yourday-to-dayorweek-to-weekoratleastmonth-to-monthbudgetarystrugglesareonesthatyoutalkaboutorareapparenttothekids.Andtheyunderstandthatthere'sonlysomuchmoneytogoaroundandtheremaybemonthswhenyousimplydonothaveenough.

Andsotheknowledgeofmoneyanditsscarcityiseverpresent,andtryingtopretendthatthat'snotthecaseisnotrealistic.Weknowthattheyaremuchsmarterthanyouweoftengivethecreditfor.Theyarehangingoneveryword,they'repickingupourownanxietyaroundmoneybyosmosis.And,youknow,ifwethinkthatthey'renotunderstandingitorpickinguponit,we'rekiddingourselves.

Now,ifyou'reluckytohavemorethanaverageandyou'reluckytohavemoremoneythanyouneed,ifyou'reluckytobeabletoaffordsomeofwhatyouwant,ormaybemostofwhatyouwant,thatjustleadstoawholedifferentsetofquestions.Youknow,maybeyou'vechosentosurroundyourselfinacommunityorschoolwithotherpeoplewhoarealotlikeyouintermsofsocialclass,butnoteverybody'sthesame.Kidsarenaturallycurious,theygoandtheygoogleoneanother'shomeaddresses.Sooncetheyhaveaccesstothewebandtotheinternet,they'recomparingconstantly.Andforthoseofourkidswhohaveaccesstosocialmedia,itis,youknow,morethananythingelsesortofengineofcomparison.Andthey'regoingtobethinkingaboutthesethings.

They'regonnabeaskingquestions.Andifwearedenyingthemaccesstoanyinformationandmakingthemfeellikethere'ssomethingwrongwiththemforaskingorwantingtotalktousaboutit,they'regonnagolookingsomeplaceelsefortheinformationthattheycrave.Andthatwillleadto,youknow,itsownmisconceptions,right?Soratherthanspendallthistimeworkingveryhardtosortofdodgeandbobandweaveastheyaskusquestionsorexpresscuriosity,youknow,whichitselfcreatesanxietyforparents,whynotjusthavearealconversationwiththemwhentheyhavequestionsandattempttoaddresstheircuriosity,which,ofcourse,isperfectlynaturalinanage-appropriatehead-onfashion?

Katie:Exactly.SoI'mcurious,whatagebasedonyourresearchandthestoriesthatyoudelvedinto,whatagedoyouthinkisthebestagetostart?Isitprettymuchassoonastheystartaskingquestions?BecauseIknowmykidseven,assoonastheycouldtalk,hadquestionsaboutmoneyandhowitworksandwhatitmeansandallthat.Whatagedoyouthinkisthebesttostart?

Ron:Well,itispossibletostarttoosoon.Youknow,peoplesendmefunnypicturesandtweetthingsatmeallthetime.And,youknow,it'severythingfromx-raypicturesofkidswithquartersintheirstomach,thatactuallycamefromarelativelywell-knownemergencyroomdoctor,hereinNewYorkCitywhoseownsoningestedthemoney.Thirdchild,Iguessyouknowherskillsmaybeinatrophyatacertainpointalongthewayorshewasjustexhausted.Youknow,tokidswhostartallowanceatage,youknow,threeorfourbuthaven'treallygottenthehangofthefactthatmoneyisnotasortofalternativeartproject.

Youknow,oneparentssentmeapictureofacollagethatalittleboymadebyrippingupabunchof$1bill,right?Soit'spossibletostarttooearly.ButIthinkrightaboutthetime,rightaroundtheageof4or5,6,


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whateverthatis.Maybegivethem,youknow,$1eachweekifyoucanafforditforeveryyearthatthey'vebeenontheplanet,right?

Somaybea6-yearoldgets$6aweekandyoudivideitupinasavejarandaspendjarandagiftjarandyou'reoffandrunning.Andallofasudden,youknow,onafairlyregularbasisthey'rethinkingaboutwhatthismoney'sforand,youknow,somethinglongtermthattheymightwanttosavefor,youknow,somethingthatmayberightinfrontofthemthatperhapstheyhaveenoughmoneynowtopurchaseontheirown.Andmaybesomepeopleorsomeprojects,someentitieselsewhereintheircommunitywhoneedthemoneymorethantheydo.Moneythattheycangiveawaythemselves.Andfromthere,allsortsofinterestingconversationsfallout,butthatisagoodplaceandagoodtimetostart.

Katie:I'mgladyoubroughtuptheToothFairybecausethat'soneofthethingsyoutackleinthebook.AndI'dloveifyoucouldshareacoupleofthedifferentwaysthatparentscreativelyfiguredouthowtodealwiththeToothFairyinawaythattaughtvalueandnotjustmoney.

Ron:Sure.SoIremembercompletelyblowingthiswhenourfirstdaughtercamealong.Wejustdidnotprepareitandallofasudden,youknow,thetoothfelloutat7:14p.m.onenight.Andwewereinapickle.Youknow,weweren'tquitesurewhattodo.SoweputthisnoteuponFacebooksaying,"Hey,youknow,what'severybodydoingthesedays?"Andtheywerelike,youknow,150responseswithallsortsofamazingstuff.AndsomebodygaveusatipactuallythattherewasaMetroCardmachineintheNewYorkCitySubwaynearwhereweliveinBrooklyn.Thatifyouputa$5billintothemachineandboughtonesubwayfare,itwouldspitacoupleofdollarcoinsbackatyou.

So,youknow,weendedupwiththesefancycoinsandweboughtsomeglitteratthecornerstoreandthatendedupbeinggoodenough.Buttherearepeoplewhoarewaymorecreativeandthoughtfulthanwewereand,youknow,Itoldsomeoftheirstoriesinthebook.There'safamilyIknowthatliveseastofSanFrancisco,bothparentsareeducatorsandtheydecidedwhattheyweregoingtodowasthat,eachandeverytimeoneoftheirchildrenlostatooth,theywouldgetundertheirpillowthatnight,atooththathadcomefromananimalanditwasadifferentanimal'stootheachtime.AndwiththattoothcamealetterfromtheToothFairythatwaswrittenlikebackwardsindisappearingink.Theywouldhavetoholdtheletteruptoamirrortogetcluesastowhatanimalthe,youknow,thetoothhadcomefrom,right?

So,youknow,thisiskindofaprettyhighbartoclear.ButthereasonwhyIlikeditisbecause,youknow,kidsjustwanttohavesomethingspecialhappen.TheywanttohavesomethingtheycantalkaboutwhenpeopleaskthemwhattheToothFairybroughtthem.Andthefiveandthesix-year-olds,mostofthemwillbe,youknow,theydon'tneedtogetmoneywhentheirteethfallout.Theyjustwanttohaveagoodstorytotellandsomethingfun.So,youknow,itdoesn'thavetoinvolvemoneynecessarily,andyoucancomeupwithyourownrituals.

There'sanotherfamilyIknowwhoIwroteaboutwherebothparentstravelfrequentlyinternationally.Andwhattheystarteddoingwasthattheywouldtakemoneyfromsomeoftheothercountriesthattheyhavevisitedandtheywouldputthatunderthepillowoftenwithabookthatwasaboutthecountrythattheyhad


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justvisited,children'sbook.Andthen,youknow,theycouldgetexcitedaboutmaybevisitingthatplaceoneday.

Katie:Irememberreadingthatone.Andthatwassuchacooltiptodotheinternationalcoinsthat,notallofushadthatability.Butit'ssuchacoolidea.AndyoutouchedonanotherthingthatIthinkisabigtopicforparents,whichishowtonavigatethechoresandallowancething.AndIknowthedefaultseemstobeyoupaykidsfordoingchores,andyoutakeadifferentapproachinthebook,whichIthinkisreallywise.Sowalkusthroughwhatyoufoundasfaraschoresandallowance.

Ron:Yes.Soifyoubelievethesurveys,roughlythreequartersofparentshavetheirkidsdochoresinexchangeforallowance.But,youknow,that'snevermadeatonoflogicalsensetome.AndoneofthebiggestreasonswhyIfinditproblematic,isitjustputsyouinadifficultnegotiatingpositionbecause,youknow,ifyouendupwithoneofthesekidswho's,youknow,sortofafutureattorney,theymaycometoyouacouplemonthsintotheallowance.Andifthey'regoodsavers,theymayjustsay,"Well,I'vegotlike,$40savedupandthere'snotreallyanythingIwantrightnow.AndsoI'mjustnotgoingtodomychoresforawhile."

Andapartofthepointoftheexerciseistogetthemtolearntobecontributingmembersofwhatonehopeswillbeanorderly,well-functioninghousehold,thenyouactuallywantthemdoingchoreseachweek,nomatterwhattheirfinancialsituationis,nomatterhowmuchmoneyisinthesavejar.So,youknow,thatdoesn'treallyworkformostparentsoncetheyrealizethatthey'rebackingthemselvesintothatkindofnegotiatingposition.So,youknow,Iencouragepeopletothinkaboutitanotherway.Tothinkaboutthecompletionofchoresand,youknow,gettingallowancesissomethingthatareinseparaterealms.Choresarethingsthatwedobecauseweloveoneanother.Theparentorparentsinthehousehold,theydoallsortsofchores,right?Andtheydon'tgetpaid.Andtheydon'texpecttogetpaid.

Theydoitbecausetheylovetheirchildren,theylovetheirspouseiftheyhaveoneorwhoeverelselivesinthehousehold.Andthat'swhyyoudothechores,right?Sokidsshouldlearntothinkaboutitthesameway.Theallowance,that'ssomethingdifferent.Moneyisforpractice.Wewantkidstogetgoodatitthesamewayweexpectthemtopracticereadingormusicalinstrumentsiftheyhavethatorplayingsoccer,right?Somethingthatwewantthemtogetgoodat.Andinthesamewaythat,youknow,Idon'tthinkmostofuswouldtakeawayamusicalinstrumentorsoccercleatsfromakidwhodoesnotdotheirchores.Ithinkweshould,youknow,treatallowancethesameway.It'satoolforlearninginthesamewaythat,youknow,booksorviolinsortheprostickorahockeystickis,right?

Andso,youknow,oftenatthispointparentsstartwonderingorworrying,"Well,whatsortofleveragedoIhaveovermykid?Like,areyousomekindofsoftyandyoujustkindofexpectthisstufftojustgetdone?"WhichIsay,"No,absolutelynot."Youcantotallypunishyourkids,youknowasmuchasyouwant,aslongasit'slegal.And,youknow,maybethebestwaytodoisjustthinkabout,whatprivilegeyoucantakeawayfromthemifthechoresaren'tgettingdone.Andifyouthinkabouttheolderones,youknow,iftheyhaveWi-Fiaccessinyourhouse,youcanchangethatpasswordanytimeyouwantto.AndIcanprettymuchguaranteefortheolderkids,ifyoudothat,thechoreswillgetdonerightquick.Soyouhavemoreleveragethanyouthink.


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Katie:Yeah,definitely.Andyoumentioned,likeasavingsjar.AndIthinkthatthat'sanothergoalthatmanyparentshaveistoteachourchildrentobegoodstewardsoftheirmoneyandtosaveandalsotogiveintowhatevernonprofitsorcharitiesorreligiousorganizationswesupport.Andyoutalkedaboutthisinthebookaswell.SoI'dlovetohearhowyousuggestpeopleintegratethattopicaswellbecauseIknowthatfromthestatsofadults,somanypeople,evenofretirementagedon'thavemuchsavings.Thisissomethingthatadultsprobablycouldlearn,standtolearnalittlebittoo.Buthowdoweteachittokidsstartingatayoungage?

Ron:Sure.Sojusttotakeastepbackforaminute.Youknow,oneofthethingsthatmademewantedtowrite,"TheOppositeofSpoiled"inthefirstplacewas,theworlddidn'tnecessarilyneedanotherbookaboutallowance,right?Orkidsandmoneyspecifically.But,youknow,whatIrealizedafteryearsofthinkingandwritingaboutthetopicfor"TheNewYorkTimes"wasthat,youknow,whenyougetrightdowntoit,thosejars,thespendjar,thesavejar,thegivejar,youknow,thosearejuststandinsforalotofthevaluesandthevirtuesandthecharactertraitsthatwegrown-upsholddearandwanttoimprintuponourchildren.

So,youknow,thinkaboutitthisway,right?Thatspending,that'sjustanotherwaytopracticemodestyandprudenceandthrift.Youknow,thegiftjarisaboutgenerosityandgratitudewhenyougetrightdowntoit.Andthesavejarthatyou'reaskingabout,well,youknow,that'sjustanotherwaytothinkaboutpatienceanddelayedgratification,especiallynow2018,whereweliveinaworldthatprettymuch,youknow,sortofstandsinthewayofourchildrenlearningtowait,right?Imean,ifyouthinkaboutourownchildhood,youknow,youwouldgotoblockbusterandmoreoftenthannot,you'dhavetowaitbecausethatfirstrun,youknow,anewreleasemoviewasnotthere.

Andwhenyouwatchtelevision,youhadtowaitforthecommercialsbecausetherewasnoNetflixandtherewasnofastforward,youknow,offtheliveTVviayourcablebox.Andifyouwantedtousethetelephone,youhadtowaitbecause,youknow,yoursiblingoryourparentwasusingthephoneandtherewasjustonelandlineinthehouse.Andifyouwenttotheamusementpark,youhadtowait,tryit,and,youknow,soonandsoon.Butnowweliveinaworldwhere,youknow,12-year-oldsarekindofissuedtheirownprivatelivesandtheycanpressbuttonsonthephoneandmakecarsappearandmovies.Andyougototheamusementpark,andifyou'vegotenoughmoney,youcanbuyyourwaytothefrontofthelineatmostoftheseplaces.Thisisbonkers,right?

But,youknow,wecan'tnecessarilychangetheworldthatwelivein.Butthefactofthematteristhatonceyouhitadulthood,beingpatient,delayedgratification,learningtowait,turnsouttobeessential,becausethethingthat'sevenmoretruethanitwaswhenweweregrowingupisthatifyoudon'thavetheabilitytobepatientanddelaygratificationandwaitwhenitcomestosavingforretirement,nobodyelseisgoingtodoitforyou,right?TheSocialSecurityprograminAmericaisnotgettinganymoregenerous,that'sforsure.Andwillprobablybegettinglessinbenefitsaswegetolderthanwearenow,sortofontheinflation-adjustedbasis,right?Nocompaniesare,youknow,startingnewpensionplans,they'regonnapayusafatcheckwhenweretire.Howsoonwe'llbeabletoretireandhowcomfortablewe'llbebasedsolelyonourabilitytobepatientandtosave.

Andyetwemagicallyexpect22-year-oldswhentheygraduatefromcollegeorwhenevertheystartworkingtobe,youknow,readytodothat,tobepatientandtodelaygratificationandputaway10%or15%oftheir


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income,whenwehaven'tbeenteachingthemtodothatwhilethey'vebeengrowingup.Soyoucan'tjustexpecttokindofsnapyourfingersandhaveyouryoungadultchildrenbereadyforthis.Butiftheydon'tstartsavinguntilthey're30or35,they'regonnabeinrealtrouble,theymayneverbeabletostopworking.Soitisessentialforusto,youknow,establishthesehabitsofpatienceanddelayedgratificationassoonaspossible.So,youknow,itmayseemlikeacutelittlejarwithdrawingsonitandthey'vegot,youknow,dollarbillsandcoinsinthereandit'sallsortofcheeryandmakesforanicePinterestorInstagramphoto,butwe'retalkingaboutreallyimportantstuffhere,habitsandvaluesthatareessential.Andthesoonerwehaveourkidsstartpracticingthem,thebetter.

Katie:Whatabouthowitwiththeteenagers?BecauseIfeellikeI100%agreeit's...especiallyatyoungages,thatthejarsareveryvisual.It'sagreat,brilliantwaytostartteachingthistokids.Andthen,we'reabouttostartraisingteenagersourselves,likehowdoyousuggesthandlingthetopicslike,thecellphones,thecars,iftheyshouldhaveajobornot,theirowncheckingaccount?Howdoyousuggestintegratingallofthoseastheystartgettingolder?

Ron:Sure,let'stakeallthoseinorder.Firstofall,logistics,whichIknowisachallengeforparentsand,youknow,ifyou'reasingleparent,it'sevenbiggerchallengebecauseyou'vegot,youknow,doubletheresponsibilityormaybeitfeelslikequadrupletheresponsibilityifyoudon'tagreewithyourexabouthowtohandlethings.Youknow,ifyouhaveanex-spouse,right?Andsoastheyhavemorefinancialneeds,youknow,throwingsingledollarbillsand$5billsintoajarstartstoseemkindofdifficultandpainful.Itotallygetthat.

ThereareappslikeAllowanceManagerandFamZoothatallowyouto,youknow,movemoneyoverintosortofanapp-basedaccountwhereyoucansortofpressbuttonsinanappandactuallymovemoneyfromyourcheckingaccounttoaprepaiddebitcardthatthekidisgonnawalkaroundwith.It'sagoodwaytosortofcheckoffwhenchoresaredoneand/or,youknow,kindofkeeptrackofwhatthey'respending,wherethey'respendingit.Sothatwayyou'renotconstantlyrunningtotheATMandtryingtointegrate20sinto5sand1s.Sothat'sagoodwaytosortofhandlelogistically.Phones,right?iPhonesinparticular,youknow,theylustafterthesethingsearlierthanyoucanpossiblyimagine.

Sohere'sagoodwaytothinkaboutthis,Imean,oneofthethingswe'retryingtodoallthroughouttheirchildhoodsismakesuretheyunderstandthedifferencebetweenwantsandneeds.And,youknow,wecantalkaboutthatmoreinalittlebit.Inthisparticularcategory,Idon'tthinkanyonecanmakeacasethat,youknow,particularlyforafirstphonethatachildabsolutelyneedsadataplan,needsinternetaccessonthego.Theyneedtobeabletotalktotheirparentsorparentsonthephone,theyneedtobeableto,youknow,textwithfriendsorcoachesorteachersiftheydothat.Butthat'sreallyalltheyneedtodo.Theymaywanttodoalotmorewiththesephones,butI'mnotsuretheyneedInternetaccesseverywheretheygo.Sothatcankeepthecostat,youknow,amoresortofreasonablelevel.

Youbuythemanentrylevelphone,youknow,thatthey'rethecheapestsmartphoneyoucanfind,youdon'tgetthemadataplan,andthey'reoftenrunningfor,youknow,maybe50or100bucksforthephoneand,youknow,15or20bucksamonth.Andthatatleastisasomewhatreasonableprice.Now,iftheywantsomethingmorelateron,that'sfine.But,youknow,themoneyforthedataplan,oughttocomeoutoftheirallowanceanditoughttobea,youknow,carefully,calibrated,prepaidplansothatthey'relearningtowatchvery


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carefullywhattheyhaveandspreaditoutoverthecourseofthemonthandmakesureto,youknow,hookthemselvesuptofreeWi-Fiwherevertheycangetit.Andso,youknow,itbecomesanexerciseinbudgetingforthemforwatchingandwaitingandplanningandbeingcarefulandmakingtradeoffs,right?

Youtalkedabouthowwe'realltryingtoraiseadultshere.It'stotallytrue.Weareintheadultmakingbusinessasparents.AndoneofthemostimportantthingsforadultstodobutsomethingandIthinkweallstrugglewith.IknowIdo,is,continuingtohavethesekindofongoinglifelongconversationswithourselvesaboutwhensomethingisawantandwhensomethingisactuallyaneed.Andhowtomakesurethatwhatevermoneywehaveforourwants,we'respendingonthethingsthatkindofdeliverthemosthappiness.Sogivingkidsasmuchpracticewiththataspossibleisideal.And,youknow,thesamethingistruewiththecar,right?

Inrecentyears,allsortsofparentswhowereluckyenoughtohavemorethanaverage,havetalkedthemselvesintothisideathatbecausethesafetyequipmentoncarshasgottenawholelotbetterrelativelyquicklyoverthelasthalfdecade,that,youknow,kidsjustabsolutelyhavetohavethebestsafetyequipmentoftenbecauseparentsareworriedthatthey'retextingwhiledriving.Sothereareallsortsofwaystokeepkidsfromtextingwhiledriving.But,youknow,ifyou'reinsistentonyourkids,havingthesafetyequipmentthatshovesyourcarbackintothecenterofthelaneiftheymeander,hitsthebrakesautomatically,ifthere'sanobjectintheroad,youdonotneeda2019Acuratogetthatequipment.Thereareplentyofusedcarsthataretwoorthreeorfouryearsoldthathavethat.Youdonotneedtospendafivefigure,alotofmoneynecessarily.AndIactuallywroteacolumnaboutthisfortheTimes,youknow,ifyou'relookingforit,youcanjustgoogleRonLeiberand2014ChevyMalibu,andyou'lldiscoverthatthereareplentyofboxy,boringAmericanvehiclesthatwilldothetrick.

Katie:Ilovethat.It'snotmademeparticularlypopularwithmyolderkidsbutthat'sbeenourpolicyaswellwhenthey'veaskedus,"Whendowegetaphone?"I'mlike,"Well,whenyoustartdrivingandyouhaveaneedforaphone,thenyoucanhaveaphone."Andwe'vesaidthesamething.Ifit'sstillavailable,we'dmuchrathergetthemanon-dataphone,likeanoldschoolphone,justbecausefirstofalltheycan'ttextanddriveaseasilyandalso,there'snosocialmediaonit.There'snodistractionsotherthantheycancallusandtheycantextus.Anditcertainly,likeIsaid,hasn'tmadeusthemostpopularbutIsomehowmanagedtosurvivethatwhenIwasateenager.Andittaughtmequiteabit.AndIhopethatthesamewillbetrueformykids.

Andonethingwe'vedoneandaredoingwithourkidsthatprobablyisunique,Iwouldguessis,beforetheycandrive,beforewe'llsignoffonthemgettingapermitoralicense,theyhavetohaveaprofitablebusinessforayear.Anditcouldjustbeapetsittingbusiness.Itcouldbesomethingsmall,butthatway,it'stwofold.Firstofall,ifthey'regonnahaveacar,theyhavetobuyacar.Sotheyneedthemoney,sotheyneedtocreateabusiness,tocreatethevalue,togetthemoney,togetthecar.Butalso,itisgonnabealessonandresponsibility.Becausewhenyousetatimeperiodofayear,that'salotoffollowthrough,that'salotofplanningandconsistency.Andalotoftheskillswewanttoseeinthembeforethey'redrivinga1000to2000-poundvehiclearoundtheroad.Sothat'sbeenkindofourapproach.Idon'tknowifthatcameupatallonyourresearch.Butthat'skindofhowwefiguredoutthatwe'regonnatacklethatwithourkids.

Ron:Ilovethat.Andthen,dotheyhavetoactuallypayfortheentirethingthemselves?Orthisisjustkindofproofofconceptintermsofmaturity?


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Katie:Both.Sorightnow,ourplanisthat,ideally,theycanpayforitthemselves,whichwillalsolimithowfancyofacartheycangetunlesstheysomehowcreateatonofvaluewiththeirfirstbusiness.Orwe'rehappytohelpthemfinancepartofitasawayofteachingthemthatandexplaininghowthatsystemworks,butthroughusratherthanabankorsomething.Sowewouldusethatasateachingexperiment.Buttheideawouldbe,theycanpayforthecarentirelyontheirownandalsotheinsurance.IwantthemtopayforthatbecauseIthinkthatmentallyisalevelofresponsibilitythatyoutakeitmoreseriouslywhenthat'scomingoutofyourownmoneyversusyourparent'smoney.

Ron:Yeah.And,youknow,it'salsoagreatwaytoactuallyteachthemaboutinsurancewheretheyhaveskininthegamebecause,youknow,tryaswemight,it'sdifficulttodressup.Insuranceis,youknowanythingotherthandull.Butwhenit'scomingoutoftheirownpocketsand,youknow,perhapsthat'sthepointatwhichtheystartgettinginterestedinhowthepolicyworksandwhetherthere'swaystosavemoneyandeventalkingtotheinsuranceagentorspeakingtotheinsuranceagentorshoppingfortheinsurancepolicy,apreconditiontohavingthevehicleaswell.Sothat'sreallycoolthatyou'redoingthat.

Katie:Yeah,itseemedlikeagoodway.I'vejustseenpeoplewe'veevenworkedwithandtriedtohirebeforejust,kidswhohitthatadultagebutthey'veneverreallyhadtowrestlewiththesethingsbefore,andit'stoughtohavetonavigateallofthatonyourownallofthesudden.Andsowereally...andyoutalkedaboutthissowellinthebook,buttriedtofindwaysthatwecouldteachtheselessonsinasmaller,saferscenariowhentheycanstillfailintheirhomewithus.Andwecanusethatasalearningexperienceversuslike,"Whoa,welcometoreallifeandnowyourcreditscoreisatrisk.Andnowyoureverythingelseisatrisk."Butteachthoselessonsslowly.AndIthinkyoumakesomereally,reallygoodpointsinthebookabouthowtodothatindifferentways.

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Katie:I'mcurious,arethereanythingsthatreallysurprisedyouinresearchingthebookthatyoudidn'texpecttofindanddid?

Ron:Well,oneofthethingstohappenrightawaywas,youknow,Iwasn'tsurewhereIshouldstop.Like,whereonthatchronologicaltimeline.Youknow,Ifiguredthebookwouldjustnaturallystopat18when,youknow,thekidswouldgotocollege,gotocollege,andwithkidswhodon'tgotocollege,youknow,gooffandgetajobandtrytomoveout.ButwhatIrealizedveryquicklythatIhadn'treallyreckonedwithyet,eventhoughI'vewrittenaboutthetopichereandtherein"TheNewYorkTimes,"wasthewholequestionofcollegeandwhatitcostsandwhatitshouldcost,wasloomingsolargeinfamilies'lives.

Imean,ifyouthinkaboutitwithoutreallymuchacknowledgingit,youknow,inthelastcoupleyearswe'vepassedapointinAmericathatit'sreallyjustanunbelievableforusparentswhowenttocollegeandhaven'tgonethroughthesystemin20yearsorso.Wereachedapointwhere,youknow,theFlagshipStateUniversityandinmoststatesincludingroomandboardforfouryearsbutreallymoreoftenfourandahalfyearsorfiveyearsformanystudentsifnotmostatsomeoftheschools,youknow,thecostofthatifyoudon'tgetadiscountpast$100,000allofyou.Andso,youknow,goingtotheFlagshipsStateUniversityisnowasix-figureexpense.AndifyougotosomeofthemostselectiveprivatecollegesanduniversitiesinAmerica,there'saprettygoodchanceforyourstartingtodaybutthatwillcostyoumorethan$300,000bythetimeit'salloverinfouryears,allright.

Andthenthere'sa$200,000gapbetweenthosetwonumbers.Andsothewholequestionof...youknow,forgetabouthowtosaveforthis,right?Thewholequestionofwhattopay,andunderwhatcircumstances,andforwhatkindofkid,andhowtonavigatethatconversation,andthatcollegeshoppingexperience,andkindoffiguringouthowthesystemworksandhowbesttobeatit,thosequestionswereloomingsolargeinpeople'sminds,thatIrealizedthattherewasjustnowayIwasgonnabeabletoscratchthesurfacethere.AndIstartedtossingthatintoa,youknow,sortofaseparateGoogledocument.AnditeventuallygotsolargethatIrealizedthatitwasitsownbook.AndsoI'mnowjustgettingstartedonworkonabookthatit'sgoingtobecalled,"WhattoPayforCollege:AnEntirelyNewGuidetotheBiggestFinancialDecisionYourFamilyWillEverMake."Allaboutthesedecisions.

AndsoIjustfiguredIcouldsortof,youknow,wavethatawayinachapterorsomething,butIjusthadnoideahowbigthenumberswereandhowlargethedecisionwasloominginsomanypeople'slives.Becauseithasanenormousimpactonyouifyou'regonnagotocollege.Andnotjustonwhathappenstoyouwhileyou'rethere,buthowyourfamily'spayingfor,howmuchisdebt?Youknow,theparentsorthechildofbothmaybetakingonwhatsacrificespeoplearemaking.It'scomplicated.So,youknow,we'recompletelynaiveaboutmyabilitytosolveforthatin"TheOppositeofSpoiled"andrealizeprettyquicklythatitwasgoingtorequireitsownbook.

Katie:Ilookforwardtothatone.Butifyou'recomfortablesharing,I'dlovetohearbecauseIknowyoudotalkalittlebitaboutsavingforcollegebrieflyin"TheOppositeofSpoiled."I'mcurioushowyou'regoingto


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navigateitbecause,fulldisclosure,wedon'thaveanykidsofcollegeageyet,butwethoughtaboutthisalotandkindofgottentothepointwherewerealizedwe'renotgoingto...likeforme,Ididn'tactuallyknowcollegewasoptionaltillIgotthere.Like,seriously,itwasjustathingyoudid.AndIfeellikethetidehasshiftedwhereyoudon'tnecessarilyalwaysneedacollegeeducationnecessarily,ifyouareself-motivatedandhaveenteredanentrepreneurialtypearenaatfirst.

Sowe'vereallywrestledwithhowtonavigatethiswithourkids.Andpartofthatisthewholestartingaprofitablebusinessbeforetheyhaveacarandhopingthatwillsparksomeentrepreneurshipinthem.Also,thingslike,sincewehavetheluxuryofhomeschooling,finishinguptheirformalhighschooleducationbyabout13,sothey'llhavecompletedtheirsubjects,andthenwecanworkwiththeminkindofanincubatorandmentorshiptotrytostartalargerscalebusinessthatsolvesaproblem.There'salotoffocusinourfamilyabouthowcanweprovidevaluetotheworldandhelpsolveproblemsintheworld.Andthenthat'showyoucancreateasuccessfulcareer,isbysolvingabigproblem.

Andtothatend,iftheydodecidetogotocollegebecausecertainlytherearefieldsthatrequirecollegenomatterwhat,we'vetalkedaboutanideaIheard...IbelievetheRockefellersmaybedidthisthat,theycancometousratherthangettingstudentloanswhichthere'smanyimplicationsthere,obviously.Buttheycancometouswithabusinessplanof,whytheywannagotocollege,howmuchtheyneed,whattheyplantodowiththeircareerafterwards,andborrowfromthefamilytrustversusfromabank.Andthenwecanworkwiththemintheircareerandtheycanpayitbackovertimethroughtheirlifetoo.Thatwaythey'renotgettingafreeride,theystillhaveskininthegame,butthat'snotashighriskofskinaswhenyou'vegotstudentloans.ButI'mcurious,anystrategiesthatyoucameacrossthatwouldbebeneficialorthewayswecouldadaptthat?

Ron:Sure.Soit'sjustacoupleofreactionstothat.Sotheeconomicdataonwhathappenstopeople'searningsoveralifetime,youknow,continuestobecompellingthaninthespeedofit.Ifyougotocollege,whenyou'renotready,there'sbetterchancethatyouwon'tfinish.Andthenthat'sahugewasteofmoney,right?That'satopicforanothertime,yougotocollegeandyoufinish.Youknow,peoplewithbachelor'sdegreesandaboveearn,youknow,sevenfiguresmoreoveralifetimeintheworkforcethanpeoplewhodonot.Sothat'sindisputable.

Now,that'snottosaytherearen'texceptions.AndIthinkit'sentirelypossiblethattherewillbe,youknow,pathstoamiddleclassoranuppermiddle-classlifethatwehaven'teventhoughtofyetorhaven'tbeeninventedforpeoplewhodonotgetatraditionalcollegedegree.Thatmakesitverydifficulttoplan.Inourhousehold,we'vegota12-year-oldanda2-year-oldnow.We'retryingtosaveasmuchaswepossiblycanbecausewewantourdaughterstobeabletohavethesamekindsofchoicesandoptionsthatwedid.NowIwasafinancialaidrecipientwhenIwenttocollegeandsoIwasluckyenoughtobeonabouthalfscholarship.

But,youknow,atthemoment,mywifeandIarenotgonnaqualifyforfinancialaidbecauseweearntoomuch.Andifthatcontinues,we'regonnahavetohaveallthemoneythat'snecessaryforthemtohavethechoicesthatthey'llhave.Sowearesavingaggressively.ButoneofthesmartestfinancialplannersthatIknowisn'tsavingmuchatallforhisthreekids.Andthereasonwhyheisn'tisbecausehefeelslikethese$300,000pricetagsandeventhe$100,000pricetagsatstateuniversities,hejustfeelslikethat'sallunsustainable.Thesystemisgonnacomecrashinginonitself.Andsomething'sgonnagrowupinthenext10or15yearsto


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replaceitandit'sgoingtobeuniversallyapplicableandacceptableandnobody'sgonnahavetospendsix-figureamountsofmoneyanymore.

Sothatmayfeellikeakindofrecklessbetnottobesaving,thefactofthematteristhathehimselfwhilehedidgotocollege,youknow,hehasanumberofbusinessesthathecouldpotentiallysellifheneededtoscareoff,youknow,acouplemilliondollarstosendthesegirlstocollege.Allright.So,youknow,it'seasyforhimtokindofmakethatbet.Buthereallyfirmlybelievesthateverything'sgonnabedifferent15yearsfromnowinawaythatwecanpossiblypredict.AndIthinkit'spossiblethathe'sright,butIpersonallywanttobesavingandplanningasiftheworldasweknowittoday,it'snotgonnachangeallthatmuchatleastbythetimeour12-year-oldgirlisreadyforcollege.Butonthereadinessfront,youmentionedintheintroofthefirstbookthatIwrotewithmyfriendColinHallontakingtimeoffanditwasaboutwhymost18-year-oldsshouldnotgotocollege.

Andanybodywhoknowstheywanttogotocollege,canstillhitthepausebuttonbecausecollegeiswastedon18-year-olds.Andyoushouldgodosomethingelseintheworldforayearortwo.Youshouldstartabusiness,youshouldserveyourcountry,insomeway,shape,orform.Youshouldworkandthentakethemoneytotravelordosomethingtosupportyourfamilyorvolunteerwork,youknow,allsortsofthings.YoushouldgoandgetsomeexperienceoutintheworldthatyoucanbringbacktobearonyourundergraduateeducationandIhopethateverybodyouttherewho'slistening,whothinkstheyhave,youknow,college-boundkidsontheirhands,willconsiderthepossibilityofagapyear.

Katie:Yeah,that'sagreatpoint.Andtoyourfriend'spoint,I'malsocurious,Ithinkeventuallysomehowthecollegesystemasitexistswillhavetochangebasedonwhatyousaid,abouthowmuchit'sgoneupinpriceandI'mcuriouswhatthatwilllooklike.Andyou'reright,wecan'treallypredictituntilhappens,butIthinkitwillbeinterestingtoseewhatthatdoeslooklike.AndIknowforthoseofus,atleast,whohomeschoolorhaveverycuriouskids,manyofthetopschoolsactuallyopensourcealotoftheircoursematerialonlineforfree.IknowMITdoesandtherearesomefromotherIvyLeagueschoolsaswellwherekidseveninhighschoolcansitthroughthosecoursesandlearnfromthem.AndIthinkthat'sagreatwaytokindofgaugeinterestsforthoseparentswhohavekidsabouttoapproachcollegeageandtryingtofigureoutwhattheywannado.

AndIthinkthere'ssomuchwisdominyourapproachofthatgapyearaswellbecausecertainly,Iknowat18IwasacompletelydifferentpersonthanIwasevenat20andyoulearnsomuchinthoseimmediateyearsofbeinganadultandIthinkthere'salotofwisdomthere.I'llmakesureIlinktothatbookaswellontheshownotes.Foranyparentswhomaybeareresonatingwithalotofthisbuthaven'treallybeenproactiveintalkingtotheirkidsaboutmoneyorimplementingthesestrategies,doyouhaveanypracticaltipsforstartingoutandhowtostartimplementingtheseintoyourfamily?

Ron:Sure.So,youknow,parentsoftenthinkthatiftheydon'tencounteranyoftheseideas,ortheyhaven'tstartedtheirchildortheirchildrenwhoare10or12or14or16,thatit'stoolate,it'snevertoolate.It'snevertoolatetoputyourselfonabudget.It'snevertoolatetosetnewlimitsorchangetherules,youknow,forthekidsthatarelivingwithyou.Youknow,parentsworryaboutseeminginconsistentbut,youknow,that'snogreatshakestogotoyourchildorchildrenandsay,"Look,we'reinstitutinganewsystemhere.I,theparent,


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we,theparentsinthehouseholdfeellikewehavenotdoneagoodjobsofarof,youknow,settinglimitsand,youknow,puttingincontrolsandguardrailsandwewantyoutolearnto,youknow,spendthismoneyyourselfand,youknow,sortofbeartheconsequencesofwhateveryourmistakesare.Andso,youknow,thesearethechangesthatwe'reputtingintoplace."

Imean,weoughttobecomfortableorgetourselvescomfortablewithadmittingtoourkidsthat,youknow,"Maybewe'vebeendoingitwrong,"andthatyoucanchangethatandyoucan,youknow,admittheerrorofyourwaysandputanewsysteminplace.AndIthink,youknow,quiteoftenforparentsandIthinkthismyself,youknow,sometimesthelackofdesireormaybeevenmoreoftenthannotthelackofdesiretomakechangeorputanewsystemintoplaceisjust,youknow,wedon'twannadealwiththehassleourselves.Wedon'twannalikemanagetheprocess.Wedon'twanttomoreoversightwhenwealreadyfeellikewe'redrowninginoversightandto-dolists.But,youknow,wechosetobeparentsinmostcases,right?Andit'sthemostimportantjobthatwehave,right?So,youknow,alittlemoreoversight,Ithink,isprobablyagoodthing.

Katie:Yeah,andIthinkit'snotjustokay,Ithinkit'sanawesomethingtobeable...andagoodexampleforourkidstobeabletosay,"Look,I'velearnedsomethingnew.Andtherefore,we'readaptingbecausethat'swhatweshoulddowhenwelearnnewinformation."Andthat'sagreatexampleandanotherimportantadultskilltobeabletoteachthemisthat,whenyoulearnsomethingnewandyouknowsomethingbetter,thenyouadaptandyoubecomebetter.SoIlovethat.Ithinkit'ssogood.AndlikeIsaid,I'mgonnamakesurethatbothyourbooksarelinkedintheshownotesbecausethey'resogood,aswellas,Icameacrosssomegreatarticlesthatyou'vewrittenforTheTimeswhenIwasresearchingthis,soI'llmakesurethosearelinkedthereaswell.Isthereanywhereelseonlinepeoplecanfindyou?

Ron:Sure.So,youcanfindmeonmypersonalwebsiteronlieber.com.So,there'sinformationthereonthebooksandalsothespeakingthatIdo.IalsomoderateaprettyactiveFacebookcommunity,it'sfacebook.com/ronlieberauthor.Andifyouhitthelikebuttonthereyouwill,youknow,hopefullyseesomeofwhatIpostandthere'sallsortsofpeopletherewhoaresuperintothequestionof,youknow,howweraisefinancially-responsiblekidsanduse,youknow,theyearsthatwehaveandtohelpusemoneytoimprintthevaluesthat,youknow,wewantthemtostandfor.And,youknow,I'velearnedatonfromthatcommunity.AndIactuallyleanonitprettyheavilyformyreportingand,youknow,whenI'mstrugglingwithconceptsorwanttotestideasso.

Katie:Iwilllinktothataswell.Andthenfinallyaself-servingquestionthatIlovetoaskbecauseI'malwaystryingtoaddtomyownreadinglist,otherthanyourown,Iwouldlovetoknowifthereareanybookorbooksthathadaprofoundimpactonyourlifeorthatyouwouldhighlyrecommend.

Ron:Sure.I'dsaytheonethathashadthemostimpactinthelast10yearscomesfromaguynamedCarlRichardswhojustshowedupinmyemailboxonedayin2008.AndhesentmethesesketchesthathehadmadewithSharpiepensoncardstock,althoughhejusteasilycouldhavemadethem,youknow,onnapkinsorsomethingelse.AndCarl'sspecialty,he'sacertifiedfinancialplanner,butthethingthathe'sactuallyreallygoodatintheworld,istakingreally,whatfeellikereallycomplexfinancialquestionsandboilingthemdowntoasimplesketchoranequationorathoughtlevelthatyoucanquoteonsomethingthat'sthesizeofanindexcardoranapkin.AndthisstuffwassogoodandsorevelatorythatIbroughthimintoNewYorkTimes


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andwegavehimacolumn.Andacoupleofyearsafterthat,heputouthisfirstbookwhichwascalled"TheBehaviorGap,"

Katie:Ilovethatandthat'sanewoneforme.I'llhavetocheckitoutandIappreciatetherecommendationandIappreciateyourtime.I'msurethatyouareincrediblybusyasanauthorandawriterforTheTimes.AndIappreciateyoutakingthetimetobehereandtoshare.Itreallymeansalot.

Ron:Thanksforhavingme.Iappreciateyourinterest,andIhopewecandoitagain.

Katie:Absolutely,ofcourse.Andthankstoallofyouforlistening,andIhopetoseeyouagainnexttimeonTheWellnessMamaPodcast.

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

episode 197: the opposite of being spoiled: raising ... · when kids are turning 16 and 17 and 18,...

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