1rla Prabhupda Speaks Out

"First Deserve, Then Desire"What follows is a conversation between His Divine Grace A.C. BhaktivedantaSwami Prabhupda and some of his disciple. Recorded in July 1975 in Denver, itbegins in an automobile and continues outside.

rla Prabhupda: Yesterday you were putting forward the idea that the body is nomore than a machine. We also accept that. In the Bhagavad-gt it is said,yantrrhni: "The body is a machine." The word yantra means "machine."

But at the same time you pointed out that the body is growing. Does a machinesuch as a car grow?

Devotee: Does a car grow? [Laughs] No, rla Prabhupda.

rla Prabhupda: But then there is a contradiction. The body is certainly amachine; that is accepted. Ka also says that, so it is undoubtedly true. The bodyis just a complicated machine. But at the same time the body grows. So how can itbe a machine?

Devotee: Is the body compared to a machine in the Bhagavad-gt?

rla Prabhupda: No, Ka says in the Bhagavad-gt that the body is a machine.He doesn't say it is compared to a machine. Actually, it is a machine.

Devotee: But then it cannot grow, because a machine doesn't grow.

rla Prabhupda: But it does grow. So what is the solution?

Devotee: The answer, I think, is that the body is changing at every second.

rla Prabhupda: Yes. Take, for example, this car we are riding, in. It is simply amachine. Now, if I want a bigger car, I have to purchase another car. It is not thatthis car will grow. Or, suppose you have a big car and it is too costly to maintain.You want a smaller car. So, you cannot contract your sedan and make it into asmaller car. You require to purchase another car. Similarly, a child cannot have sexin his child's body. If he wants to enjoy sex, he must have another body, an adult'sbody. This is such a simple thing, but the rascals cannot understand how nature issupplying us with different machines, different bodies, at every moment.

Devotee: I think all of this is beyond the present level of scientific knowledge.

rla Prabhupda: Yes, because it is all happening automatically, by theinconceivable energy of Ka: parsya aktir vividhaiva ruyate svbhvik jna-bala-kriy ca. Ka's potencies are working so wonderfully and so swiftly that youcannot see how things are going on.

Concerning how our body is changing at every moment, the example of the moviespool is very appropriate. Each tiny picture is different, but when the movie isshown through a projector, you cannot understand that. It seems to be onesmoothly running picture, but actually in the background there are many, manydifferent pictures. In one picture you will find that the hand is here, in the nextpicture the hand is there, in the next it is here. . . . But when the pictures are allshown very rapidly, the hand seems to be moving. As soon as you stop theprojector, however, the hand becomes fixed in one position.

2So, if an ordinary cinema picture can create this illusion, how much greater is theillusion created by the subtle workings of nature and the bodily machine. Peopledo not know that at each second they are being supplied a different body.

How can the rascals know this? They have no brainall dull-headed materialisticmhas [fools]. They cannot understand this. But this is the process that is goingon. I want a certain thing, a certain kind of body, and nature supplies it.

Devotee: But it's true that sometimes we desire a certain kind of body, or let's say acertain abilitylike playing musicyet we aren't ever able to do it.

rla Prabhupda: Yes. You have to be qualified by your karma to get a certain kindof body. Now, whatever Ka wants, He can dobut you are not independentlike Him. You are dependent on nature, and your position is very insignificant. ButKa can, as soon as He wishes, immediately do anything. This is also mentionedin the Bible: "God said, 'Let there be creation,'" and there was creationimmediately. But you cannot do that. You may desire something, but nature willsupply you according to what you deserve.

Devotee: The scientists say that every seven years the whole body changesall themolecules are replaced in that time.

rla Prabhupda: Not every seven years. From the medical point of view, theblood corpuscles are changing at every moment.

Devotee: They're totally different?

rla Prabhupda: New blood cells are constantly coming into being, and the oldones are being destroyed. So, you cannot say that the bodily machine is growing.That is fallacious. You are actually getting a new machine at every moment.

[Everyone gets out of the car.] Whatever you deserve, you will receive from thematerial nature. You may desire something, but at the same time you may deservesomething else. So your desire will not be fulfilled. For example, the impersonalistrascals say, "I desire to become God." But that kind of desire will never befulfilled. So we say, "First deserve, then desire."

Devotee: It all depends on our qualification, doesn't it?

rla Prabhupda: Yes. Your position is very minute. So you can desire up to acertain limit. It is not that you can declare, "I will become the complete whole, theuniversal Absolute." That is the defect of the Myvda [impersonalistic]philosophers. Because we are all spirit (aha brahmsmi) and the Supreme is alsospirit (para-brahman), they declare, "I am qualitatively one with God, andtherefore I am one with Him in every respect." A drop of ocean water contains thesame ingredients as the big Pacific Oceanit is qualitatively one with the ocean.But if a drop of ocean water says, "I desire to become the ocean," that is notpossible. So, when we understand that we are qualitatively one and quantitativelyminute in relation to the Supreme, that is our perfection.

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3Notes for the teacher

Read YSJ, Chapter 8 and BG 15.8, 15.9 and also follg conversation.

Following conversation is taken from BG 8.5 Lecture by SP

HOW IS ONE PUT INTO A BODY WHAT ONE THINKS OF?

Devotee: I'm not sure that I understand the process by which one might be thinking ofsomething in his mind, and how that soul is put into a body similar to what that thought is. Inother words, how can the soul be subject to what the mind is thinking of?

Prabhupda: Because soul is now covered by the subtle body and the gross body. When thegross body stops to work... Just like at night the gross body is lying, but the subtle body mind isworking. Therefore you are dreaming. The subtle body is working. So when you give up thisbody, your subtle body, mind, intelligence, that carries you very fine. Just like the flavor iscarried by the air. If the air passes on some rose trees, the air becomes flavored like rose. Thereis no rose, but the flavor is there. Similarly, the flavor of your mentality, the flavor of yourunderstanding, is carried. That is the subtle body. And you get a similar body. Therefore at thetime of death the examination is tested, how one has advanced in Ka consciousness. The bestthing is... It is said in the next verse, tasmt sarveu kleu [Bg. 8.7]. Ka says, tasmtsarveu... [break] ...of death you are transferred to a body like Ka in the abode of Ka.

CAN A SINFUL PERSON THINK OF KRISHNA AT DEATH AND GO BACK TO HIM?

Indian man: Supposing there is a person who is not Ka conscious during his life, but at thetime of death he becomes Ka conscious. Then what his body...?

Prabhupda: He goes to Ka.

Indian man: So that we can perform bad actions during our life and only at...

Prabhupda: Yes, if you are so fortunate... Just like Ajmila. Throughout the whole life hecommitted all sinful acts. But when he was at the point of death... He had a pet child whosename was Nryaa. So he was calling, "My dear boy Nryaa." So when he was callingNryaa, he thought of Nryaa. So immediately he achieved Nryaa.

Indian man: But don't you think it is a contradiction that if a man is a bad throughout his lifeand only at the time of death he thinks of Ka and gets...?

Prabhupda: No. That history of Ajmila is different. In his childhood he was a son of abrhmaa. He was faithfully discharging the duties of a brhmaa. But accidentally, when hewas young... He was married also. Accidentally, when he was young he was passing on the roadand some dra girl and boy were embracing and kissing, and he became attracted. And hebecame attracted by the prostitute. And he left home, wife, and everything, and then he becamea great dacoit and smuggler, and everything he did. But... And he had so many children.Youngest was Nryaa. So at the time of death..., because generally, people become attached tothe youngest son, so he was calling "Nryaa." But he remembered, "Oh, that Nryaa."Reference to the context. As soon as he called Nryaa... In his boyhood he served Nryaaunder the direction of his father, so he remembered Nryaa. Therefore it is not alwayspossible, but therefore in the Bhagavad-gt it is said, svalpam apy asya dharmasya tryatemahato bhayt. If somebody has executed devotional service even a little bit, oh, it may be, itcan save him from the greatest danger.

Devotee: I don't understand. I don't see how man in one life can achieve a level of consciousnessthat he could sit with Ka. Don't you have to go through a change, I mean, according to whatyou do in your life? Don't you either have to be elevated, stay the same, or return...?

Prabhupda: Yes. That elevation you can achieve immediately simply by changing yourconsciousness. What do you mean by elevation? A man is called uneducated and another man iscalled very learned. What is that? He has practiced how to become educated. That's all. Similarlyyou practice. Here is the practice. And you become elevated. There is no, I mean to say,impediment. Anyone can elevate himself immediately. There is no question of waiting. Because

4the process of change is going on. If you accept the change immediately, and then you follow,you become elevated.

DIFFICULTIES ARE THERE IN EVEN IN MATERIAL LIFE

Guest: If a person experiences difficulty attaining a level of consciousness of God, how tocounteract that?

Prabhupda: Yes. Difficulty is there always. Even you go to a school there are so manydifficulties. But if you practice with vow and rigidity, you become successful. Difficulties may bethere. In every field of our activities there are difficulties. You cannot say... This world is full ofdifficulties. So difficulties may be there, but you have to struggle against the difficulties and youhave to adopt the process. Then your difficulties will be over. It is not that "Because there isdifficulty I shall refrain from it." No. dau raddh tata sdhu-sago 'tha bhajana-kriy tato'nartha... [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. These are process. Just like you have come here with someraddh, with some faith: "Oh, here is Ka consciousness. Let me sit down. Let me hear." Thisis the preliminary stage. If you become little serious, then you come daily and try to understandwhat is this. This is called sdhu-saga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Then, gradually, as these boys, theyoffered themselves, "Swamiji, I want to be your regular student, initiate." Third stage. dauraddh tata sdhu-sago 'tha bhajana-kriy [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. And if he follows therules and regulation, gradually the difficulties are over. Anartha-nivtti syt. And when thedifficulties are over, then he gets faithtato nih. He gets tastetato ruci. Athsakti, thenattachment. Then bhva, ecstasy, and the highest perfection after that. So difficulty may bethere. We are in difficulties, this material life. But we have to come over. That is required. It isnot that you cannot come over the difficulties. In every step of our life there are difficulties. Thematerial life is like that. Pada pada yad vipadm [SB 10.14.58]. In every step there is danger.It is a place like that. Even if you are comfortable in a nice car, you are going, oh, there may beany moment accident. Even you are sitting here, there may be accident. So difficulties, thisworld is full of difficulties. One who does not understand this difficult position, he's a fool. Ifone thinks that "I am very comfortable," then he's a fool. This is animal life, just as animalthinks, "Oh, I am very comfortable. I am very nice." And dissatisfaction is human life. He's nothappy unless he gets the greatest happiness. That is human life. And if he thinks, "Yes, I am welloff. I am very happy," then he is animal. Because there is no happiness here. Full of distress. Fullof miseries. How he says that "I am happy"? That means he is ignorant. So difficulties are there.You have to work out. That is the problem.

YOU BECOME WHAT YOU THINK

Devotee or Guest: I have a question about the, taking a body of Ka after death if you'rethinking of Ka at the time of death, or taking the body of a dog or a deer if you're thinkingabout that sort of thing when you die. There must be different kinds of taking of a body, becausethere are different kinds of bodies. The bodies of dogs and deers and things are not the same asthe body of Ka. Now, how do you take on this form of Ka?

Prabhupda: By thinking of Ka.

Guest: No, what I mean is how does the soul assume this form? How does it become...

Prabhupda: Not become Ka. Just like you are spirit soul. When you take the body of acertain type of body, you act according to the body. Just like the dog is acting differently fromhuman body because he has got a different body. Hog is acting differently because he has got adifferent body. So there are 8,400,000's of different bodies. So mad-bhva, mad-bhva means thenature, Ka's nature. You keep your individuality, but you get Ka's nature. And what isKa's nature? Ka's nature is always blissful. nandamayo 'bhyst (Vednta-stra 1.1.12).Always joyful. So you get a body of joyful, full of knowledge, and eternal. Not that you becomeKa. You get exactly the same bodily constitution as Ka has got. That is sac-cid-nanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. As we are, even at the present moment, we are particle Ka. Ka is vibhu,the whole. We are au, we are small. Similarly, as now we have got this material body, if we passour life in Ka consciousness, we get our spiritual body, which is not different from the soul.A clear example: just like a man put into the water is raised from the water and placed in theland. So in the land he is happy. Similarly, because we are spirit soul, we are in a very

5unfavorable condition of this material world. As soon as we perfect ourself in Kaconsciousness, we get into the spiritual platform or body or atmosphere.

BY LIVING IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF A DOG,

DO WE TAKE ON DOGs BODY OR A HUMAN BODY WITH NATURE OF A DOG?

Guest: I have one more question. If in taking on a body like Ka we assume a nature likeKa's nature...

Prabhupda: Yes.

Guest: When you say taking on the body of a dog or a cat or a pig or whatever, is this also... Doyou mean literally a body like a pig, or do you mean the nature of a pig or dog or cat?

Prabhupda: No. Here the body and the soul different. The soul is spirit, and the body is matter.But when you attain a body like Ka's, that means that is spiritual body. There is no differencebetween the soul and the body. Here there is difference between soul and body. But in thespiritual world there is no difference between soul and body.

MERGED IN MATTER or MERGED IN SPIRIT, WEVE INDIVIDUALITY

Guest (2): Swami, are we now... Are we all part of Ka and at the time of death if we think ofKa, like we become what? Like meshed in with Ka? Like now we're, say, suspendedwithin Ka. But at the time of death, if we think of Him we merge. Is that what you're saying?

Prabhupda: Yes. You merge means you merge into the spiritual existence, but that does notmean you lose your individuality. You are already merged in the matter. We are all merged. Nowyour soul, my soul, his soul, you cannot distinguish where is the soul. But body, the materialbody, we have got everyone. But in spite of our being merged in the matter, we have got ourindividuality. Similarly, to become merged in spiritual existence does not mean that we lose ourindividuality. Try to understand. Just like we are all merged into the matter. If you dissect mybody, you won't find where is that small particle spirit. It is already merged, but still, we havegot individuality. That means spirit soul is individual. Otherwise, so far your body is concerned,my body is concerned, there is blood, you have got blood; you have got muscle, I have gotmuscle; you have got bones, I have got bones. What is the difference? But why you areindividual, I am individual? Because the spirit soul is individual. We are merged in the matterbut we keep our individuality. Similarly, you merge in the spirit, you keep your individuality.How can you lose your individuality?

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupda: No?

Guest (2): Your individuality, you mean?

IN THE INDIVIDUALITY OF SPIRITUAL WORLD, THERE IS NO DISAGREEMENT,BECAUSE KRISHNA IS THE CENTER

Prabhupda: Yes. You are individual always. Just try to understand your present position. Yes.You are merged in the matter. I am merged into the matter. But still you keep your individuality,I keep my individuality. Similarly, when you merge in the spirit, why the individuality should bestopped? Only difference is, at the present moment the soul and the matter, they qualitativelydifferent. And when you get spiritual body, the quality of the body and the soul is the same.But individuality must continue. How can you stop individuality? But that individuality andthis individuality is different. In that individuality there is no disagreement. In thisindividuality there is always disagreement. Therefore in spite of individuality, there is oneness.

So individuality will continue. There is... If there is no display of individuality, then you'll haveto come back again to this display of individuality in the material world. Because everyone...Individual means he has got his own choice. If I tell you that "You can come here, but youhaven't got any choice," then you won't like to sit down here. You can sit down here, you can goout immediately. That's your choice. But if I make the condition that "You can sit down herewithout your choice," oh, you will hate to come here. "Oh, I don't care for your meeting." Thatis individuality. But that choice may be very nice, and that choice may be very bad. That is

6different thing. But you have got your choice. That is individuality. So in the spiritual world thechoice is there to serve Ka. Somebody is thinking, "I shall serve Ka like this." Somebody isthinking, "I shall love Ka like this." The choice is there. The individuality is there. But thecenter is Ka. Therefore there is no disagreement.

Just like in this world there may be dozens of parties. They may fight with one another, but thecenter is nationalism. Therefore those parties are not null and void. They're accepted by thegovernment. They may be fighting with one another with aims and objects, but because theirpoint is nationalism, they are accepted. There is the agreement. Similarly, in the service ofKa, there may be individuality, the choice of individuality may be, but the center beingKa, that is absolute. There are many authoritative books, means Bhakti-rasmta-sindhu,Caitanya-caritmta, Prti-sandarbha. But generally, if you simply try to understand Bhagavad-gt as it is, without any malinterpretation, then you get all information of these things.

Just like here Ka advises, yudhya ca mm anusmara: [Bg. 8.7] "You go on fighting. Becauseyou cannot stop your fighting because you are a soldier." But mm anusmara, "At the same timeyou think of Me." This is the secret, that nobody can stop his activities, but he can think ofKa at the same time. This is Ka consciousness.

Just like a lover cannot forget beloved. So you have to contact Ka in love, then the meditationcontinues for twenty-four hours.

LIFE IS A PREPARATION, DEATH IS THE EXAMINATION

Devotee: Swamiji, while it's true that anyone who thinks of Ka as he is dying can take on thebody of Ka, is it not true that if you don't spend your life thinking of Ka, it may bedifficult at the time of death to remember Him because of attachment?

Prabhupda: Certainly. If you don't practice, then at the time of examination, certainly you'llfail. (chuckles) If you say, "All right. I shall see in the examination hall. I shall write everythingnice," that is nonsense. You have to study nicely before the examination. Therefore it is said,yudhya ca mm anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. Practice it. Abhysa-yoga-yuktena. What is yoga? Yogameans practice. Abhysa-yoga-yuktena cetas nnya-gmin [Bg. 8.8]. Yoga means you do notallow your mind to go anywhere else. Just try to engage. Sa vai mana ka-padravindayo[SB 9.4.18]. Always fix up in Ka. That is the highest type of yoga.

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