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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
AULISTAR MARK, et al., etc.,
Plaintiffs,
v.
GAWKER MEDIA LLC and NICK DENTON,
Defendants.
Case No.: 13-CV-04347 (AJN)
AFFIDAVIT OF MARK BATTEN
I, Mark Batten, hereby depose and state:
1. I am a partner at the law firm ofProskauer Rose LLP. I make this declaration on
personal knowledge.
2. True and correct excerpts from the deposition of Aulistar Mark are attached
hereto at Tab 1.
3. True and correct excerpts from the deposition of Stephen Totilo are attached
hereto at Tab 2.
4. True and correct excerpts from the deposition of Andrew Hudson are attached
hereto at Tab 3.
5. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Aulistar Mark to Stephen Totilo with
the subject: "Re: Offer of Kotaku Internship," which was Exhibit 3 at Mark's deposition, is
attached hereto at Tab 4.
6. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Stephen Totilo to Aulistar Mark with
the subject: "Re: Internship Guidelines," which was Exhibit 13 at Mark's deposition, is
attached hereto at Tab 5.
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7. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Aulistar Mark with the subject:
"Learning Agreement Form and Acceptance letter" with related attachments, which was Exhibit
14 at Mark's deposition, is attached hereto at Tab 6.
8. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Rebecca Schall to Aulistar Mark with
the subject: "Journall" with related attachments, which was Exhibit 16 at Mark's deposition, is
attached hereto at Tab 7.
9. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Aulistar Mark to Stephen Totilo with
the subject: "July TimeSheet and Supervisor Evaluation" with related attachments, which was
Exhibit 19 at Mark's deposition, is attached hereto at Tab 8.
10. A true and correct copy of an e-mail from Aulistar Mark to Stephen Totilo with
the subject: "Aulistar Mark- Intern of the Past" with related attachments, which was Exhibit 22
at Mark's deposition, is attached hereto at Tab 9.
I declare under the penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and conect.
Dated: August 14, 2015
2
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Tab 1
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1 A. Mark
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4
5 -------------------------------x
AULISTAR MARK, et al.,
6
Plaintiffs,
7 Civil Action
vs. No. 13-cv-04347
8 (AIN)
9 GAWKER MEDIA
10 Defendants.
11 -------------------------------x
12
13
14
15 DEPOSITION OF AULISTAR MARK
16 New York, New York
17 Tuesday, April 8, 2014
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 THOMAS A. FERNICOLA, RPR
25 JOB NO. 71500
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1 A. Mark
2 A. Yes. Before interning at Gawker, I
3 was a, of course, a journalism student at The
4 New School.
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 A. Besides that I was also a writer for
7 the Hartford -- the University of Hartford
8 newspaper, as well as The New School
9 newspaper, essentially as reporter; two years
10 of reporting experience before moving on to
11 Gawker internship.
12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 Anything else, any other journalism
14 experience?
15 A. No. No. No, other journalism
16 experience.
17 Q. What documents do you have that
18 relate to your internship at Gawker?
19 A. With me, like say now or --
20 Q. No. Just in your possession in
21 general?
22 A. In my possession in general.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I actually don't have any physical
25 documents; however, I do have all of the
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1 A. Mark
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Did you get college credit for this
5 internship?
6 A. I did, yes.
7 Q. Would you say you got additional
8 real world experience?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did you get a foot into the door
11 of the world of video game journalism?
12 A. No. So, no.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Huh. Because video game journalism
15 is a very difficult world to get into, with a
16 very limited amount of slots available for
17 actual journalists who would actually like to
18 do it, as with the journalism industry in
19 general.
20 Q. There just aren't that many jobs; is
21 that what you're saying?
22 A. There really aren't that many jobs.
23 So, essentially, I might have had an easier
24 time getting -- putting my foot into the door
25 of the world of video game journalism just by
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1 A. Mark
2 A. Essentially by attempting to be a
3 freelance video game journalist, by putting
4 stories to -- putting stories to websites,
5 websites and magazines, based around
6 technology and video games. It was not
7 financially -- financially stable.
8 MS. PAPARELLA: Can we take a break?
9 MR. BATTEN: Sure.
10 (Recess taken from 2:35 p.m. to
11 2:44 p.m.)
12 (Mark's Exhibit 3, Series of
13 EMails, was marked for identification.)
14 BY MR. BATTEN:
15 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 3?
16 A. One moment.
17 Q. Sure. Take your time.
18 A. (Document Review.)
19 Okay.
20 Could you repeat the question.
21 Q. Do you recognize these emails?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the bottom one on the first page
24 from Stephen Totilo, he offers you the
25 opportunity to intern and says, "an unpaid for
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1 A. Mark
2 credit editorial internship"; right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. So you knew before you started that
5 it was unpaid; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Did you have a problem with that at
8 the time?
9 A. Actually, I essentially made the
10 decision, I weighed the pros and cons. Of
11 course, I had a mother who says, why are you
12 working for free. But I made the decision
13 that working for free was worth the benefit of
14 having Gawker on my resume.
15 Q. Okay.
16 And you were going to get college
17 credit also?
18 A. I was going to get college credit
19 for it. That wasn't so much something I was
20 particularly interested in, although that was
21 an advantage.
22 Q. Why were you not particularly
23 interested in it?
24 A. Because I didn't necessarily need
25 college credits and because it does complicate
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1 A. Mark
2 Q. I see.
3 And what tier did you selected?
4 A. I selected the tier of six credits,
5 because I needed to get financial aid in order
6 to pay for the credits.
7 Q. So six credits, is that what you
8 said?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And so how many hours a week did you
11 need to intern to get six credits?
12 A. You needed to intern for 220 hours.
13 Q. Total?
14 A. The whole entire total, yes.
15 Q. So it didn't matter how many in any
16 given week, as long as you hit the total at
17 the end?
18 A. Essentially. So, I needed to have a
19 total of 220 hours logged on my time sheets.
20 (Mark's Exhibit 4, EMail setting
21 Schedule, was marked for identification.)
22 BY MR. BATTEN:
23 Q. Is Exhibit 4 the email you were
24 referring to where you set the start and end
25 date?
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1 A. Mark
2 (Mark's Exhibit 7, Internship
3 Proposal for The New School, was marked
4 for identification.)
5 BY MR. BATTEN:
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Do you recognize this document?
8 A. I don't.
9 Q. Did you have to prepare an
10 internship proposal for The New School?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. Was that what this is?
13 A. It looks like this is it.
14 Q. Did you have to submit anything else
15 to The New School to get the internship
16 approved or was this enough?
17 A. In order to qualify for credits at
18 The New School, it was required that you take
19 an internship class. So, once a week I had to
20 meet with an internship advisor who
21 essentially taught a class which had
22 additional things, like employment training
23 and resume writing, cover letter writing, on
24 top of discussing the -- our particular
25 internships and our internship experiences
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1 A. Mark
2 with other students who were doing internships
3 through The New School or rather through
4 various employers throughout New York, but
5 still being required to take this internship
6 class once a week.
7 There was, of course, other
8 documents required as part of this internship
9 program, including time sheets and evaluations
10 from intern supervisors or the supervisors
11 chosen by, I guess the internship and the
12 particular intern or student. In this case,
13 it was Stephen Totilo.
14 Q. Uh-huh.
15 But to get the internship approved
16 in the first instance, was it just this piece
17 of paper?
18 A. Can you rephrase the question? Do
19 you mean -- get it approved by who?
20 Q. By the school.
21 A. To get the internship approved by
22 the school was just this piece of paper.
23 Now was this a question, did I have
24 to do internship evaluation in order to get an
25 internship?
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1 A. Mark
2 period of time where the internship, The New
3 School career services internship class, and,
4 therefore, like the period of time where this
5 occurred happened.
6 So, basically, my time sheets had to
7 reflect -- my time sheets had to reflect that
8 I worked this many hours in this particular
9 time; however, I can't tell you for sure about
10 the fact that I worked -- I was working
11 basically a month before and a couple weeks
12 after the internship.
13 And I believe I might have actually
14 asked if I could just then place those hours
15 and put it on a time sheet so it reflects on
16 the time sheet for official newspaper -- New
17 School paperwork that I worked 220 hours in
18 the time frame that The New School requires
19 this 220 hours to happen.
20 And it goes along with how I said
21 where interns would start for the internship
22 period and after the internship period or even
23 carry over their internship that they had in
24 the previous internship semester on to this
25 internship semester.
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1 A. Mark
2 (Mark's Exhibit 14, The New School
3 Learning Agreement, was marked for
4 identification.)
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 BY MR. BATTEN:
7 Q. What is this document?
8 A. This is The New School College
9 learning agreement that's given to students
10 and they have to submit this as part of their
11 internship course.
12 Q. Was your supervisor required to sign
13 off on this in some way?
14 A. I believe he actually was. Wherever
15 it says above his signature, that's
16 essentially where my supervisor had to sign
17 off and it had to be submitted to my
18 internship course supervisor,
19 counselor/supervisor.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And this one isn't signed. Do you
22 know whether Stephen signed it and returned
23 it?
24 A. I don't know. I don't know.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 A. Mark
2 If you start with the second page,
3 which looks like a cover letter form.
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. It's dated June 24, 2010.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So you were about a month into the
9 internship at this point; is that right?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. And you described Kotaku in the body
12 of the letter as one of the epicenters of
13 video game journalism.
14 Is that how you felt at the time?
15 A. Yes. It still is. That's how I
16 feel right now.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 "And to be given an opportunity to
19 work for Kotaku is an experience that many
20 covet and few would think to pass up."
21 Is that how you felt at the time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay.
24 If you turn two pages on to the page
25 that starts Learning Goals/Objective No. 1.
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1 A. Mark
2 Do you see that?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. And I gather you wrote, "Learn to
5 write/investigate in a fast-paced
6 environment"; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you write that or did Stephen
9 write that?
10 A. I don't know for sure.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Well, it's described as the learning
13 goal or objective; right?
14 A. Yes. So I believe I wrote it.
15 Q. Okay.
16 And do you feel like you achieved
17 that goal?
18 A. I mean, the truth is that when I did
19 a lot of this paperwork, I essentially did it
20 just to get it done because I didn't care.
21 As an internship, they required that
22 I have a learning goal and objective, and I
23 needed to have a learning agreement to do an
24 internship.
25 Q. Understood.
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1 A. Mark
2 A. And so essentially I wrote that I'm
3 going to learn to write and investigate. That
4 was the truth and that's essentially what I
5 wrote here on this piece of paper.
6 Q. And so I'm asking, according to that
7 document, did you learn to write and
8 investigate in a fast-paced environment?
9 A. If anything, I built on my previous
10 experience and I actually had the opportunity
11 to work in a fast-paced news environment or a
12 faster pace news environment like Gawker under
13 tight deadlines and with working with other
14 editorial staff.
15 So, in that case, yes, I gained
16 experience. I did learn some things.
17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 Learning Goal/Objective No. 2,
19 half-way down the page, says, "Fine tune my
20 writing style to the progressive world of
21 blogging."
22 Would you say you achieved that?
23 A. Yes, I'd say I achieved that.
24
25
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1 A. Mark
2 first paragraph.
3 Q. End of the first paragraph.
4 A. Yes, that's accurate.
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 Then at the bottom of that same
7 page, you say, "Overall, I look forward to the
8 next two months with optimism"; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. "It's been a slow and gradual start,
11 but I feel I can say I've been learning more
12 about my craft, as well as what I'm capable of
13 than I've ever learned in a classroom."
14 Is that how you felt?
15 A. I felt, going into Kotaku, that it
16 was really more of like a work experience
17 than, say -- I guess I would basically -- yes,
18 it was more a work experience than a learning
19 experience.
20 I felt like I benefited from being
21 dropped into what was essentially a work
22 experience.
23 Q. Okay.
24 And did you learn more about your
25 craft as well as what you're capable of than
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1 A. Mark
2 you had ever learned in a classroom?
3 A. I did, because I've never been
4 required to write as many articles as quickly
5 as I had to have written them as I was at
6 Kotaku. Never before have I had to both, you
7 know, draft and write several posts a day,
8 have them published and do it again the next
9 day or the next time I was in the office.
10 Q. Okay.
11 "I've had internships in the past,
12 both good and bad, but not as truly hands-on
13 as Kotaku."
14 Is that true?
15 A. Yes. Because my previous
16 internships, I didn't really get to -- like
17 being able to just write something and see it
18 on the Internet, like here's I show you within
19 an hour is not something that -- when I was at
20 the West Hartford Community Television, I was
21 essentially with a mentor and he walked me
22 through ever every single step of, you know,
23 initially video editing. That's where I first
24 learned how to video edit on something called
25 Video Toaster. No one uses. It's from the
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1 A. Mark
2 '80s and '90s. But there it was really sort
3 of a mentor teaching me how to do what he
4 already knows how to do.
5 At Blue Magazine it was really sort
6 of -- it was really -- that's really some of
7 the ones of those terrible internships where,
8 okay, you're in the office, yes, you're
9 writing a newsletter. But I felt like I
10 didn't really accomplish as much as I
11 accomplished at Kotaku.
12 At Kotaku I appreciated the fact I
13 was basically treated as a writer. And so I
14 obviously worked as a blog writer. I was -- I
15 had high expectations on me, and I feel like I
16 then produced, you know, I produced stuff and
17 I kind of proven to myself that I was capable
18 of doing these multiple stories and working at
19 the speed and working in a work environment
20 like Kotaku, and I appreciated the fact that I
21 had that experience, I learned that about
22 myself.
23
24
25
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1 A. Mark
2 A. Second column -- sorry. What?
3 Q. Down here at the bottom.
4 A. Oh, yes, sorry. Last comment.
5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 "Have you been able to talk to your
7 supervisor about ways in which he feels you
8 can grow in tools of the trade."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Did you talk to Stephen about that?
12 A. I don't remember, so I don't know.
13 Q. All right.
14 If you turn to the next page, which
15 is stamped 190 at the bottom. If you look at
16 the second comment, which is it says C6,
17 Ms. Schmall writes, "It sounds as though you
18 are learning to work within the ebbs and flows
19 of the media industry and its inconsistent
20 schedules."
21 Do you agree with that?
22 A. Yes, I agree with that. I agree
23 that doing an internship at Kotaku made me, as
24 she said, I learned the ebbs and flows and the
25 schedule that is working in the media
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1 A. Mark
2 industry, and I continued, you know, to do
3 that even though.
4 Q. Uh-huh.
5 And the next comment she says, "You
6 are gaining very valuable experience and
7 increasing your skill set."
8 Do you agree with that?
9 A. I believe I did. I did some -- I
10 tried some initial things at Kotaku. Like I
11 did photo editing where I edited a picture of
12 the president of Nintendo on top of a pirate
13 ship. That is not something that I knew how
14 to do before.
15 I just said, okay, do I know how to
16 use Photoshop, I guess I do, let me do it. So
17 I did get to try some things that might have
18 not have tried if I hadn't had to like
19 essentially prove myself at Kotaku.
20 Q. Okay.
21 And at the bottom it says, the last
22 comment on that same page, she writes, "It
23 sounds as though you are building confidence
24 and learning deeply about yourself."
25 Do you think she was right about
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1 A. Mark
2 to Stephen Totilo on April 2nd, 2011, you say,
3 "Once again, thank you for giving me the
4 opportunity to work under you at Kotaku. I
5 learned a lot and have moved forward since
6 then."
7 Is that true?
8 A. That's true.
9 Q. And you ask him if he'd write a
10 general recommendation letter as a previous
11 boss and mentor; right?
12 A. I did. That's true.
13 Q. Do you consider him a mentor?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. And he says he'd be happy to write a
16 letter of recommendation in the next email.
17 Did he -- did he do that?
18 A. I never received a letter of
19 recommendation, unfortunately.
20 MR. BATTEN: All right. Let's take
21 a moment.
22 (Recess taken from 4:25 p.m. to
23 4:28 p.m.)
24 MR. BATTEN: I have nothing further.
25 Thank you.
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12 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK4 --------------------------------------X5 AULISTAR MARK, et al.,6 Plaintiffs,78 - against- Civil Action No.9 13-cv-04347-AJN1011 GAWKER MEDIA LLC, and NICK DENTON,12 Defendants.13 --------------------------------------X1415 October 14, 201416 10:18 a.m.1718 Deposition of Defendant Gawker Media19 LLC by STEPHEN TOTILO, held at the offices20 of Liddle & Robinson, L.L.P., 800 Third21 Avenue, New York, New York, pursuant to22 Notice, before NANCY SORENSEN, a Notary23 Public of the State of New York.2425
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1 S. Totilo2 A. No.3 Q. If you didn't assign an intern work,4 who would assign an intern their work?5 A. The interns, when we would have them,6 would come in and have some expectations and7 understanding of what their opportunities were.8 And at times, if a writer thought9 that the intern could help them out, might ask10 for help.11 At times, the intern might show the12 initiative to volunteer to do something. So at13 times, the interns were occupied without, I14 would say, anybody assigning them.15 It was very much the way we operated.16 If you have ideas and you show initiative and17 you do things. And there are also instances18 when I would encourage an intern to, say, pitch19 articles.20 I don't know if we would consider21 that assigning or not. It's not me saying you22 must do this or else. It's me encouraging and23 saying it would be great if you could write24 something. You should go, maybe write an25 article. Things like that.
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1 S. Totilo2 of the piece by the time it was published.3 Q. How much time did you spend with him4 on this?5 A. I don't recall specifically. But6 like I said, this was wasn't a, let's talking7 about it on a Monday and it gets published on a8 Tuesday.9 This was a series of weeks of him10 forming the idea going out, reporting. Me11 giving feedback on drafts.12 It was much longer than is the13 typical period of time that a writer would be14 working on an article at Kotaku.15 Q. So how long did he work on it for?16 A. I don't recall specifically.17 Q. So how do you know it was longer than18 a typical writer would spend on an article at19 Kotaku?20 A. Kotaku writers write 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,21 some 10 posts a day. Some of them are quite22 short.23 But even the larger reporting pieces,24 a writer can do that and turn that around in a25 day or two, if need be.
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1 S. Totilo2 interesting articles on the site.3 Q. So it was helpful to have interns4 looking for these republishes; right?5 A. Sure.6 Q. If you look at the paragraph before7 that starts, "Start your intern day," do you see8 where I'm referring to?9 A. Yup.10 Q. It goes on to say that they should go11 back through the past 24 hours worth of posts12 and copy editing.13 "This means reading through the posts14 and then alerting us in camp with any mistakes15 you find. We'll then give you the green light16 to fix them."17 A. Um-hmm.18 Q. Can you tell by this what19 Mr. Crecente is asking interns to do?20 A. He's asking the interns to help copy21 edit articles on the site.22 Q. For what purpose?23 A. To help improve the articles and,24 obviously, give them more experience with this.25 Q. Is this something you've ever asked
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1 S. Totilo2 -- that anybody at Kotaku has asked full-time3 employees to do, to go back and look over the4 past 24 hours at posts to copy edit them?5 A. Not that I recall.6 Q. It says, "Each of you will be tapped7 to help out with reporting and writing."8 A. Um-hmm.9 Q. When it says, "help out," who is it10 referring to, as best as you can tell?11 A. He's asking or he's advising the12 interns that they'd be tapped to help others on13 the Kotaku staff, or himself, with reporting and14 writing.15 Q. Does Gawker still have interns?16 A. I don't think so. But, again, I'm17 more capable of speaking to Kotaku than Gawker18 as a whole.19 Q. Does Kotaku have any interns?20 A. No.21 Q. Why not?22 A. It's not -- in my judgment as23 editor-in-chief, it's not really -- it takes a24 lot of time to mentor and work with interns, and25 you don't get a huge amount of work out of them.
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1 S. Totilo2 couldn't do the research project.3 The copy editing, unfortunately,4 probably just wouldn't have gotten done.5 Q. When was the last time Kotaku had6 interns?7 A. We had interns in the early part of8 2012, right after I took over as9 editor-in-chief. And those were the last10 interns that I can recall.11 Q. So did you make the decision to stop12 having interns?13 A. Yeah.14 Q. Was it in consultation with anyone15 else?16 A. No, we had one editorial fellow after17 that, but I just decided it wasn't worth it.18 Q. So the editorial fellow sort of took19 on the role that interns typically were20 assigned?21 A. Yeah, more or less, yes.22 Q. And they were paid; right?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Why were they paid?25 A. I remember being told that we were
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1 S. Totilo2 A. For an intern in New York like3 Aulistar, it was when he would be in the office,4 you know, showing up and leaving.5 Or for remote interns, it would6 similarly be when they'd check in or check out7 of Campfire, the chat room that we use to all8 talk.9 I mean, of course, it's, these are10 media jobs, so the hours aren't quite fixed for11 those who actually work them.12 They're not quite fixed even if13 you're an intern kind of learning the14 experience, so there's a fluidity there. But15 you, you know, sort of use those guidelines.16 Q. So if you wanted to look back at17 these chat room logs, assuming they still18 existed, you could see when an intern, I guess,19 got to work and left work; is that right?20 A. Well, you wouldn't really see that21 for an intern based in the New York office22 because you wouldn't know when they walked in23 the door or when they left, necessarily.24 Although they might say hey, I'm here25 or I'm not. And similar, if you're remote, you
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1 S. Totilo2 might see them saying that, you might not.3 Q. So there's no requirement that they4 let people know that they were there or when5 they were leaving, as far as you remember?6 A. There was a custom to say hi and7 good-bye. But, no, I mean there's no like time8 clock or punching or anything like that, no.9 Q. Did interns receive any training10 other than hands-on training?11 A. The only training, if you want to12 call it that, is the continued exposure to13 working with full-time Kotaku writers and14 reporters, while they're doing their internship,15 as far as I can recall.16 Q. So if you're a full-time writer or17 editor of Kotaku, you're presumably getting that18 same training that an intern would be getting,19 right, because you're, like you just described,20 working with other editors and writers at21 Kotaku; is that fair?22 A. No.23 Q. Why is it not fair?24 A. Because in your question you're25 implying that the skill set of an intern is
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1 S. Totilo2 Q. Are you saying that the sites don't3 all have the same positions?4 A. Every site has the editor-in-chief,5 as far as I am aware. Although I have not6 really checked.7 Sites have deputy editors or managing8 editors. Sites have reporters, but it's like we9 have video editors on our team. A lot of the10 other sites don't have video editors. So, yeah,11 it differs from site to site.12 Q. Do you know of any intern ever being13 disciplined in any way by Gawker or their weblog14 or anything like that?15 A. I don't remember anything like that,16 no.17 Q. If you ever had a problem with an18 intern, what would you do about it?19 A. I guess it depends what the problem20 was.21 Q. That's fair. Is it something that22 you would handle by yourself or would there be a23 situation where you'd be compelled to speak to24 somebody from the parent company Gawker?25 A. You're dealing in hypotheticals. If
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1 S. Totilo2 by "problem," we mean the type of things that3 you expect from an extremely junior and green4 person who's learning, the problem may be they5 missed a deadline or something or their story6 pitches are bad or it's entirely appropriate7 that you'd work internally within the editorial8 team.9 If you mean something beyond that, I10 guess I would have reached out to others in the11 company for, you know, advice about what should12 I do.13 But we're in hypotheticals. I don't14 recall ever having a problem with any of our15 interns that required anything beyond the16 editorial team's involvement.17 MR. ADLER: Let's take another very18 short break.19 (Brief recess taken.)20 FURTHER EXAMINATION21 BY MR. ADLER:22 Q. Do you know who Gaby Darbyshire is?23 A. Yes.24 Q. Who is she?25 A. She's one of the early employees of
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1 A. Hudson
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4
5 -------------------------------x
AULISTAR MARK, et al.,
6
Plaintiffs,
7 Civil Action
vs. No. 13-cv-04347
8 (AIN)
9 GAWKER MEDIA
10 Defendants.
11 -------------------------------x
12
13
14
15 DEPOSITION OF ANDREW HUDSON
16 New York, New York
17 Tuesday, April 8, 2014
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by:
24 THOMAS A. FERNICOLA, RPR
25 JOB NO. 71500
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1 A. Hudson
2 Q. When was that?
3 A. I went to college here; so, four
4 years, from 2005 through 2009.
5 Q. Okay.
6 What college did you attend?
7 A. Fordham College at Lincoln Center.
8 Q. Did you get a degree?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was that?
11 A. BA in political science.
12 Q. Where did you go to high school?
13 A. Webster Groves High School in
14 Webster Groves, Missouri.
15 Q. Did you have any other educational
16 degrees other than the BA from Fordham?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you attended any other classes?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay.
21 Other than political science, what
22 did you study at Fordham?
23 A. I had a minor in creative writing.
24 Q. And what did that involve in terms
25 of the work?
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1 A. Hudson
2 A. I mean, a number of classes and, you
3 know, English classes and journalism classes
4 that together construed the creative writing
5 program.
6 Q. Okay.
7 So there was a journalism component
8 to it; is that right?
9 A. Yes. That was one of the ways that
10 you could get the minor, I believe; and, so, I
11 took a journalism workshop and some journalism
12 classes and those turned into a communication
13 major with a creative writing minor.
14 Q. So creative writing didn't
15 necessarily mean fiction; is that right?
16 A. Not necessarily, but there were some
17 other classes.
18 Q. So which journalism classes did you
19 take?
20 A. I took the journalism workshop twice
21 or three times. Twice. Which basically
22 involved working on the student newspaper at
23 Fordham, Lincoln Center. I took magazine
24 writing, online journalism.
25 That's all I can remember.
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2 at -- I applied broadly to a number of
3 different schools.
4 Q. What Ph.D. program is that?
5 A. Depending on the school, it was
6 either political science or sociology.
7 Q. Have you been accepted in any of
8 those programs?
9 A. No. I got accepted to me one, but
10 it was a lot of money to go, so...
11 Q. Where was that?
12 A. That was at The New School.
13 Q. Are there places that you're waiting
14 to hear from still?
15 A. No. This was -- this was a while
16 back, yes.
17 Q. Was The New School the only school
18 from which you received an acceptance?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What have you been doing since you
21 left Fordham, since you graduated?
22 A. I've been working as a journalist,
23 editor, consultant, writer, communications
24 consultant.
25
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1 A. Hudson
2 certainly a business like Gawker is based on
3 producing a constant stream of new content
4 throughout the day.
5 Q. How many posts on average appeared
6 on io9 per day during the time you were
7 interning there?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Can you give me a ballpark?
10 A. Probably dozens may -- a dozen or
11 maybe several dozen. I don't recall. I think
12 it was something like, you know, multiple
13 posts every hour for the workday.
14 THE WITNESS: I'm going to run to
15 the restroom, if that's okay.
16 MR. BATTEN: Sure.
17 (Recess taken from 11:00 a.m. to
18 11:05 a.m.)
19 BY MR. BATTEN:
20 Q. How did you first hear about
21 internships at io9?
22 A. My roommate at the time, Fred Tann
23 (phonetic), had been a regular reader of io9,
24 and he saw a posting on the blog mentioning
25 that they were looking for summer interns and
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1 A. Hudson
2 discovery?
3 A. I had seen it. I had seen it around
4 since it launched. I think I saw it when it
5 first launched because Cory Doctorow posted
6 about it and I read, you know, his work on
7 BoingBoing.net, and so I visited them when it
8 came out and occasionally when things got sent
9 to me.
10 Q. Did you apply for interns other than
11 at io9, either at Gawker blogs or elsewhere?
12 A. At that -- at that time?
13 Q. At this time, yes.
14 A. I don't believe so.
15 Q. Did the posting that you reviewed
16 and were responding to here in Exhibit 2, did
17 it say that the internship was unpaid?
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Do you remember when you found out
20 the internship was unpaid?
21 A. It was either in that posting, if
22 they mentioned it, or if it was when I first
23 spoke with an editor from io9, I think
24 probably Charlie.
25 Q. In addition to the email from
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1 A. Hudson
2 experience, my skills, my interests, those
3 sort of things.
4 Q. So, in any case, you knew before you
5 started the internship that it was going to be
6 unpaid; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did that trouble you at the time?
9 A. I certainly would have preferred a
10 paid internship, but it was a -- it didn't
11 seem like the -- it didn't seem like the
12 biggest deal, but I thought it was going to
13 get a good experience out of it.
14 Q. So it didn't seem exploitive to you
15 at the time?
16 A. At the time I was not as conscious
17 of the problematic nature of unpaid
18 internships and the effects they have on the
19 workforce and the people that take them and
20 sort of society in general.
21 And I guess I thought I was going to
22 get a good training experience out of it. And
23 I just -- I wasn't as aware of, you know, some
24 of the basic ideas of people should be paid
25 for their labor.
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1 A. Hudson
2 I mean, I think I probably believed
3 that, but it wasn't something that was at the
4 forefront of my mind.
5 Q. Was academic credit discussed in
6 these conversations before your internship
7 began?
8 A. I don't recall. It may have. But
9 if it was, it was brief, because it didn't
10 seem like something that -- like we were going
11 to be able to arrange academic credit and,
12 anyways, I didn't need any more credits to
13 graduate.
14 And I wasn't sure how taking
15 academic credit would -- for an internship
16 would play into my scholarship at Fordham,
17 so...
18 Q. Did Fordham offer credit for
19 internships as a general matter?
20 A. I think they definitely did offer
21 credit for internships, but I think that the
22 broad spectrum of universities, they were more
23 stringent about what qualified for credit and
24 the requirements you had to -- the hoops you
25 had to jump through to get credit for them.
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1 A. Hudson
2 Q. In any case, I take it you never
3 pursued credit from Fordham; is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Did you speak to anybody at Fordham
6 about the possibility of credit for this
7 internship.
8 A. Not that I recall.
9 Q. Did you read about Fordham's
10 internship practices?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was the possibility of employment, a
13 paying job at io9 or elsewhere within Gawker,
14 ever discussed before you started your
15 internship?
16 A. I think it was mentioned that they
17 had hired or might hire interns, but it wasn't
18 promised, if that's what you're asking.
19 But, yes, I think it was sort of
20 discussed as a possibility.
21 Q. You didn't take it as a promise?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did you first talk about a
24 schedule with anyone?
25 A. After they offered me the internship
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1 A. Hudson
2 Q. In any case, I take it you never
3 pursued credit from Fordham; is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Did you speak to anybody at Fordham
6 about the possibility of credit for this
7 internship.
8 A. Not that I recall.
9 Q. Did you read about Fordham's
10 internship practices?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was the possibility of employment, a
13 paying job at io9 or elsewhere within Gawker,
14 ever discussed before you started your
15 internship?
16 A. I think it was mentioned that they
17 had hired or might hire interns, but it wasn't
18 promised, if that's what you're asking.
19 But, yes, I think it was sort of
20 discussed as a possibility.
21 Q. You didn't take it as a promise?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When did you first talk about a
24 schedule with anyone?
25 A. After they offered me the internship
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1 A. Hudson
2 Q. The email from Charlie Jane Anders
3 that appears at the beginning of Exhibit 2
4 says that you "would be working with our news
5 reporter, Meredith."
6 That's Meredith Woerner; is that
7 right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. "On gathering info for news stories
10 and features that she is working on."
11 Is that something that you did
12 during your internship?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "Plus promoting her stories to other
15 sites and social networks."
16 Did you do that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that description sounded
19 appealing to you, obviously, at the time;
20 right?
21 A. Appealing enough that I took the
22 internship. I wasn't dissuaded, yes.
23 It's not a very detailed description
24 but, you know.
25 Q. Were you pleased to be offered the
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1 A. Hudson
2 And if I found any, I would send
3 those on to Meredith. Or any other weird,
4 interesting things that would be relevant, I
5 would -- it's not exactly like pitching, but
6 it's assisting in finding stories that became
7 posts.
8 Q. All right.
9 So maybe I understood. I thought
10 you had said before that you sent ideas to
11 Meredith saying here's something that someone
12 else could --
13 A. No. No. I helped Meredith with her
14 job as a reporter finding stories to write
15 about.
16 Does that make sense?
17 Q. Yes. Thank you.
18 Did you learn anything from your
19 internship?
20 A. I learned not to take an unpaid
21 internship. That's maybe the biggest life
22 lesson. And I learned some what not to do's
23 from managing people.
24 Q. For example?
25 A. For example, in working with Graeme
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