iltgialntiut alilitmhly. · a title for land can be guaranteed because land stays put. with a motor...

294 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Consumers ·Protection Council.

that any restriction should be placed on matters raised, but I think all honorable members must consider their position as members of Parliament. To condemn a firm for dishonesty in this House, as the honorable member did--

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-The person concerned "scooted" off to America.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-That may well be. I was merely trying to be helpful. I was thinking of a recent occasion when an honorable member raised a matter of two people alleging dishonesty against a" certain firm. This led to a writ being issued against them. My remarks were related with a view to protecting not ,firms such as have been referred to, but the people who make the allegations which are later voiced in this House. I have no sympathy for anyone who has "scooted " off to America or for anyone who is dishonest. I believe my record shows that I have never hesitated to investigate this sor.t of allegation. However, I suggest that, in the interests of the people whom honorable members represent, this type of allegation should be made in general terms and that the information which supports it should be placed in the hands of the appropriate Minister. I do not make that suggestion to serve my own interests or those of the Government; I make it in the interests of the people whom we represent.

The honorable member for Heatherton has informed me that the matter he mentioned had been raised with my Department. I have no personal knowledge of it, but I shall certainly look into it. If the Motor Registratio"n Branch is at fault, I am sure that the position can be remedied. However, I make it perfectly clear that the Branch has never claimed, nor has it ever been able, to guarantee the title of a motor car. This is an extremely difficult matter. A title for land can be guaranteed because land stays put. With a motor car, the engine can be changed, or the chassis can be changed. If the obligation of making sure that motor car )" A" is the same

as motor car "B" is placed on the" Motor Registration Branch, it will surely run into trouble. The complaint of the honorable member for Heatherton will be investigated; I regret that I cannot produce an answer off the cuff.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 11.25 p.m.

Iltgialntiut Alilitmhly. Wednesday, September 25, 1968.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) took thechairr at 4.13 p.'m., and read the prayer.

CONSUMERS PROTECTION COUNCIL.

TRANSFER TO DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND INDUSTRY.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) 'asked ,the Premier-

Why the control of the Consumers Protection Council was transferred from the Law Department to the Department of Labour and Industry?

For Sir ,HENRY BOLTE (Premier and T'reasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary).-The answer is-

The Government decided that it was more appropriate for the Consumers Protection Act 1964 to be administered by the Department of Labour and Industry because-

(a) the Department already administers Part V. of the Goods Act 1958, which deals with false trade descriptions and other matters concerning leather goods and textile products, and also the Footwear Regulation Act 1958;

(b) the Department is concerned with various safety measures and is responsible for the Industrial Safety Advisory Council. Its experience in this regard is generally useful in relation to numerous home appliances which are mechanically operated and may cause safety problems;

(c) the Department has a staff of field officers able to undertake investigations in respect of complaints and who have powers under the legislation administered by the Department to make investigations relevant to the type of complaints received by the Consumers Protection Council. In fact the coum:il

Public Service. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Municipalities. 295

has recently asked that its secretary be given powers similiar to those of inspectors of the Department of Labour and Industry.

PACKAGING OF BUTTER AND MARGARINE.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Oppos.ition) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

If he will lay on the table of the Library the documents in respect of approaches made to the Consumers Protection Council in relation to the packaging of butter and margarine?

·Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer is, " Yes ".

MEMBERS.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) ·asked the Minist·er of Labour 'and Industry-

Whether it is proposed to reappoint the present members of the Consumers Protection Council, if so, when?

Mr. ROSSITER (M·inister 'Of Labour and Industry).-The answe·r lis-

The Consumers Protection Council will be reappointed. Details of the membership have yet to be determined.

PUBLIC SERVICE. RIGHT OF ApPEAL AGAINST

TRANSFERS.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Premier-

Whether he will give consideration to introducing legislation, this session, to provide public servants with a right of appeal against compulsory transfers; if not, why?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (P.remier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Ry,lah (Chief Seeretary).-The answer i5-

I am unaware of any request for such a provision and, consequently, the Government has not considered the matter.

COMPANIES. TAKE-OVERS OF INSURANCE COM

PANIES: DISCUSSIONS WITH FEDERAL GoVERNMENT.

Mr. WILKES (North cote) ·a·sked the p.rem.ier-

1. Whether the Government proposes to assist the Prime Minister and the Federal Government in their efforts to protect and prevent take-overs of insurance companies in this State; if so, what assistance is proposed?

2. Whether the Government intends to extend the activities of the State Accident Insurance Office as a safeguard against the attempt by foreign capital to take over certain companies and areas of insurance in this State?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE '~Premier and Treasurer), Sk Arthur Ry;lah (Chief Secretary).-The answers are-

1. I have suggested that our AttorneyGeneral would be available to discuss this matter with the Federal Attorney-General.

2. No.

LOCAL SHAREHOLDINGS IN FOREIGN COMPANIES.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Attorney General-

Whether the Government has considered compelling foreign capital companies taking over existing businesses to give Victorian capital an equity of shareholding in the businesses so taken over?

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) .-The answer is-

This matter has been considered from time to time during recent years both by the State alone and in conjunction with the Commonwealth. In fact, the provisions of the Companies Act 1961 as to ownership of shares can and would be used to prevent secret take-overs.

So far it has not been thought necessary to legislate on the matter, which is continually under review. The Government is prepared to confer further and co-operate on this matter with the Commonwealth and other State Governments.

MUNICIPALmES. BORROWING WITHOUT REFERENCE

TO LOAN COUNCIL.

Mr. GINIFER I~Deer Park) asked the Treasmer-

Whether the Loan Council makes special provision to allow local governingauthorities to borrow up toa certain amount without reference to the Loan Council; if so, whether this policy applies to Victoria and, in that event, what local governing authorities have utilized this provision and what their respective borrowings under this provision have been?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and T:reasocer), Sir Arthur Ry,lah (Chief Secretary).-The answer is-

The position with borrowing programmes in the local governing field is that any local governing body can borrow up to $300,000 in anyone financial year, if it so desires, provided that the terms and

296 Victorian Arts Centre. [ASSEMBLY.] Commonwealth Pay-roll Tax.

conditions of individual loans are approved by the State Treasury in accordance with general Loan Council conditions. The Australian Loan Council does not place any over-all limit on the total borrowings in a State by the smaller local governing bodies which come within this category. Last financial year, 223 local governing bodies, including municipal councils, waterworks trusts and sewerage authorities, borrowed a total of $20,109,000 under this arrangement.

PAYMENT 'OF RATES BY STATUT'ORY B'ODIES.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer' P,ark) asked the Attorney-General-

In view of the fact that the South Melbourne City Council has successfully established that the State Electricity Commission of Victoria is liable to pay rates to that council for properties owned by the Commission within the municipality, what action (if any) the Government proposes in relation to other bodies liable to pay municipal rates?

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) .-The answer is-

This matter primarily concerns the Minister for Local Government and I suggest that the honorable member direct the question to the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local Government.

AUSTRALIAN RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT BANK LIMITED. TRUSTEE INVESTMENTS: TRANSFER

ABLE CERTIFICATES 'OF DEP'OSIT.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) 'asked the Trea:surer-

Whether Victoria is the only State in which transferable certificates of deposit issued by the Australian Resources Development Bank Limited are not an authorized trustee investment; if so, whether it is proposed to rectify this situation?

FlOr Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and 'freasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary).-The ans'wer is-

Yes; not at the present time.

VICTORIAN ARTS CENTRE. C'OST 'OF GALLERY BUILDING: FINANCING 'OF SEC'OND STAGE.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Trea:surer-

1. How much the first section of the cultural centre in St. Kilda-road cost, and how this was financed?

2. What is the estimated cost of the erection (including architects' fees and furnishings) of the second section, and how it is proposed to finance this section?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE O>re,mierand T-reasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary).-The answers are-

1. The cost to the stage of completion of the new art gallery building is $14,000,000. This sum includes the cost of the car park which has been financed by loans totalling $864,000 raised by the building committee and which is an entirely self-financing project. The public has subscribed $1,300,000 towards the cost of the new gallery building 'and the balance of the cost has been provided by the Government.

2. The second stage, spoken of as the north end development, is still the matter of consideration by the building committee and firm proposals including estimated costs have not yet been presented to the Government.

COM,MONWEALTH PAY -ROLL TAX.

PAYMENT BY EDUCATI'ONAL INSTITUTI'ONS.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked the 'freasurer-

1. Whether salaries and wages paid by privately-run schools up to secondary education level, conducted by organizations not carried on for profit, are exempted by the Commonwealth from pay-roll tax?

2. What amount of pay-roll tax was paid by Victoria last year in respect of State education institutions up to secondary level?

3. Whether, in view of the undertaking given by the Treasurer in reply to question No.2 asked in this House on the 5th October, 1966, he raised this subject at any subsequent Premiers' conference; if so, on what occasions, and with what result?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and 'freasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief SeC'retarry).-The ans'wers are-

1. The provisions of the Commonwealth Pay-roll Tax Assessment Act exempt from the payment of pay-roll tax certain nonState schools, including church schools and schools, other than technical schools, providing education at or below but not above the secondary level of education and which are conducted by organizations not carried on for profit or gain.

2. $2,933,000. 3. The matter of pay-roll tax was agai~

raised at the Premiers' conference held in June last. As reported in the proceedings of the conference, the Prime Minister indicated that, as far as the Commonwealth was concerned, the present tax reimbursement arrangements would continue until 1970 and that these arrangements were made on the

Royal Mint. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Public Accounts. 297

basis that the States and their authorities would continue to pay Commonwealth payroll tax.

PAYMENTS BY GoVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS, INSTRUMENTALITIES AND MUNICIPALITIES.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) -asked the Treasurer-

What total amounts were paid in respect of pay-roll tax last financial year by-(a) State Government Departments; (b) semigovernmental and statutory authorities ; and (c) municipalities?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secre:tary).-The answer ds

(a) $6,975,000. (b) $4,083,000. (c) $1,233,000.

ROYAL MINT. LONG SERVICE LEAVE FOR OFFICERS.

Mr. TURNBULL (Bruns-wick W-est) asked the Treasurer-

Whether he is yet in a position to give a reply to a deputation from officers employed at the Royal Mint in respect of long service leave?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE ~re-mier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Ry.Jah (Chief Secretary).-The answer ~'S-

No. This question will be determined together with all other staff matters prior to 31st December next, when the Melbourne branch of the Royal Mint is scheduled to close.

STATE SUPERANNUATION FUND. 1968 INVESTIGATION.

For Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition), Mr. WHton asked :the Tore as urer-

1. Whether the 1968 investigation into the Superannuation Fund has been finalized; if so, what is-( a) the amount in the fund and (b) the amount of accrued interest at that date?

2. When it is expected ,that the distribution of the surplus will be made to superannuants?

3. Whether the updating of the pensions will be made retrospective to 1968?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (premier and Torea'Surer), Sir Arthur Ry,lah (Chief Seoretary).-The "answers are--

1. No. 2 and 3. Until the facts are known no

decision can be made.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. SINKING FUND DEFICITS.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) ask'ed the Treasurer--

I. What total annual contribution was paid by the State during last financial year as interest on sinking fund deficits which were incurred subsequent to 1954-55?

2. What is the estimated amount of such contribution during 1968-69?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Torea'Surer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary).-The answers are--

1. $2,676,454. 2. $3,037,477.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. USE OF AIRCRAFT : TRAVEL OF HOMI

CIDE SQUAD : FLYING TRAINING FOR MEMBERS.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Chief ISecretary-

1. Whether any section of the Victoria Police has ever had aircraft allocated to it for specific use and control; if not, why?

2. How members of the Homicide Squad, at short notice, travel long distances in cases of extreme urgency?

3. Whether he will give consideration to providing aircraft training to members of the Homicide Squad to assist them in their duties; if not, why?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-The answers "are-

1. No. As circumstances requiring the use of aircraft occur only infrequently, the expense of having an aircraft permanently attached to the Police Department coulq not be justified.

2. Motor car, unless the circumstances justify the use of aircraft. Aircraft have been used on occasions.

3. It is not considered necessary to provide flying training for members of the Force. Where the circumstances justify the use of aircraft to transport members of the Force to the scene of a crime or in an emergency, approval would be given. Also there are a number of members of the Force who hold either a commercial or private pilot's licence who could be called upon if circumstances require.

DUTIES AT ESSENDON AIRPORT: CHARGES FOR SERVICES.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown), asked the Chief Secretary-

1. How many police are allocated to the Essendon airport on regular duties?

298 Police [ASSEMBLY.] Department ..

2. How many extra police are allocated to the airport when entertainers or entertainment groups are expected, and from where these extra police are obtained?

3. Whether the police are provided on the request of various entrepreneurs: if so, whether any charges are made?

4. Whether the provision of police for the reception of entertainers interferes with the performance of more important duties?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answers are-

1. One detective from the Victoria Police Force.

2. The number varies according to the particular circumstances of each case. Police are drawn from the various stations within the Bourke Police District and, if required, members of the Mobile Traffic Section also attend.

3. No. 4. The control of crowds at any assem

blage or entertainment is one of the functions of the police to ensure that no undue obstructions to traffic occur and to prevent any disorderly behaviour.

That is, their function is to maintain law and order.

DUTIES AT MELBOURNE CRICKET GROUND: CHARGES FOR SERVICES.

Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown)' asked the Chief Secretary-

1. How many police were employed at each of the final series matches at the Melbourne Cricket Ground?

2. Whether the Melbourne Cricket Ground trustees were charged for the police provided; if so, what was the cost?

3. Whether overtime costs are charged to the Trustees in respect of any off-duty police on overtime?


1.

First Semifinal.

Second Pre-Semi- liminary final. Final.

--------1---------

Uniform police 67 67 67

Foot traffic police 30 30 30

Mobile traffic police .. 12 12 12

Oetectives .. 23 26 28 ---------

132 135 137

2. Yes. For the services of 45 uniform members of the Force performing duty inside the ground. These members were supplied at the request of the Melbourne Cricket Ground Trustees and their services were charged for at the rate of $3 per hour in accordance with the charges prescribed in the Police Regulations 1957. The total amount collected amounted to $2,625.

3. No. Any member who worked in excess of eight hours is credited with the equivalent amount of time-off.

ST. ALBANS POLICE STATION: STAFF DETAILS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Chief Secretary-

What is the rank and length of service, respectively, of each pOliceman stationed at the St. Albans Police Station?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answer to' this question consists of a detailed statement, and I seek leave of the House for its incorporation in Hansard without my reading it.

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-

Rank.

Sergeant McMenomy

Senior Constable Humphrey

Senior Constable Stone

First Constable Whitley

First Constable Betson

Constable Harris

Constable Collins

Constable Rankin

Constable Stewart

Constable Kobza

Constable Conway

Constable Cornwall

Years of

Service.

19

14

12

9

9

3

2

t

Social Welfare Branch. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Fishing Industry. 299

SOCIAL WELFARE BRANCH.

ALLOCATION OF LOAN FUNDS.

Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the Chief Secretary-

What amount of loan money was allocated to, and spent by, each division of the Social Welfare Department in each of the financial years 1962-63 to 1967-68, inclusive?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-As the answer to this question is set out in the form of a detailed table, I seek leave of the House for its incorporation in Hansard without my reading it.


LOAN WORKS EXPENDITURE.

Allocation. Expenditure.

1962-63-Family 123,000 119,418 Youth .. .. 379,000 104,906 Prisons and Training 312,000 185,064



1965-66-Family 263,000 254,548 Youth .. .. 442,000 439,683 Prisons and Training 1,170,000 1,162,872



INCREASED STAFF.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote) asked the Chief Secretary-

What was the increase in staff in the Technical and General and Professional Divisions, respectively, in the Social Welfare Department in each of the years 1962 to 1968, inclusive?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answer is-

Technical Year. Professional and

Division. General Division.

1962 .. .. 1 83

1963 .. .. 1 3

1964 .. .. 21 109

1965 .. .. 3 36

1966 .. .. 6 28

1967 .. .. 3 40

1968 .. .. 12 42

47 341

FISHING INDUSTRY.

REPORTING OF FOREIGN VESSELS.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether Victorian fishermen have been requested to report any foreign fishing vessels poaching in proclaimed waters; if so, how many reports have been made, how many investigated, and what action was taken in each case?


So far as I can ascertain no request has been made to fishermen in proclaimed Victorian waters to report poaching by foreign fishing vessels.

BOXING.

ESTABLISHMENT OF STATUTORY CONTROL.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether approaches have been made by representatives of the Australian Boxing Federation for the establishment of a suitable form of statutory control over the sport; if so, what decision has been reached?


There has been no specific request for statutory control of boxing, although representations have been made by the

300 Law [ASSEMBLY.] Department.

Australian Boxing Federation for recognition. I am unable to say what this means. There is no statutory control over many sports in Victoria and this includes the sport of boxing.

If a case were made for statutory control submitting reasons for such control, it would naturally receive consideration from the Government.

ELECTORAL. DEER PARK ELECTORATE: QUOTA:

ENROLMENT: POPULATION.


In respect of the electorate of Deer Park, what is-( a) the electoral quota of voters; (b) the present enrolment; and (c) the estimated population living within the electorate?


(0) Pursuant to the Electoral Provinces and Districts Act 1965, the quota for each of the 44 electoral districts in the Port Phillip Area-of which the electoral district of Deer Park is one-was 25,000 electors.

(b) The present enrolment of the electoral district of Deer Park is 33,051 electors.

(c) The electoral enrolments for Victoria amount to approximately 50 per cent. of the actual population of the State. On this basis the estimated population of the electoral district of Deer Park would be 66,000 persons.

PRISONS DIVISION. CARRYING OF FIREARMS BY WARDERS

AT FRENCH ISLAND.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether Mr. R. C. Bennetts carries firearms whilst working as a warder at French Island?


Officers at McLeod Prison Farm do not normally carry firearms, but when required to work the night duty roster they are issued with sidearms.

LAW DEPARTMENT. SENTENCES: PREROGATIVE OF MERCY.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Attorney-General-

How often during the last ten years the prerogative of mercy has been exercised, whether by pardon, release, or reduction of sentence?

Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). -The answer is-

No collated statistics are available in respect of the exercise of the prerogative of mercy, except in relation to capital cases, and it would be very difficult to provide a complete answer to the question in its present form. I suggest that the honorable member discuss the matter with me.

COURT HOUSES.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Public Works-

1. How many court houses have been constructed since 1955, and on what dates they were completed?

2. How many court houses have been rebuilt since 1955, and where?

3. What court houses are planned to be rebuilt, and when it is proposed to commence work on each?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers to questions Nos. 1 and 2 consist of a detailed statement, and I seek leave of the House to have it incorporated in Hansard without my reading it. I am not clear what information the honorable member seeks in relation to question No.3. Perhaps he could confer with me later, so that we could work out a form in which the question could be answered.

Leave was granted, and the answers to questions Nos. 1 and 2 were as follows:-

1 and 2. BenaUa; rebuilt; 9th November, 1962. Broadford; new; 19th May, 1968. Broadmeadows; new; 19th April, 1962. Brunswick; rebuilt; 16th October, 1964. Children's Court; new; 2nd December, 1960. Colac (1st stage); rebuilt; 29th May, 1968. Dandenong; rebuilt; 9th April, 1965. Elsternwick; new; 11 th March, 1958. Elmore; new; 17th December, 1965. Fern Tree Gully; new; 1st December, 1961. Frankston; new; 15th June, 1956. Hopetoun; new; 25th October, 1963. Horsham; rebuilt; 22nd March, 1968. Moe; new; 29th November, 1957. Mordialloc; new; 23rd March, 1966. Morwell; rebuilt; 7th March, 1957. Orbost; new; 1st March, 1960. Pakenham; new; 19th December, 1963. Ringwood; new; 31st January 1962. Springvale; new; 20th March, 1960. Sunshine; new; 23rd March, 1959. Tallangatta; rebuilt; 15th October, 1957.

Ports and Harbours Branch. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Country Roads Board. 30.1

Wodonga; rebuilt; 27th July, 1966. Swan Hill; rebuilt; 21st January, 1968. Yea; rebuilt; 28th June, 1968.

PORTS AND HARBORS BRANCH. TANK TEST OF SANDRINGHAM

HARBOR.


1. What was the cost of the tank test of Sandringham harbor, and what was the result?

2. What action has been taken to' put into effect the findings of this test?

3. What is being tested in the tank at present?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers are-

1. The cost of the Sandringham tests carried out at the Public Works Department's Marine Models Laboratory was approximately $20,000. The tests indicated that the re-establishment of a field of groynes between Hampton and Brighton Beach could result in the formation of a continuous beach and that the construction of a stone groyne in the vicinity of the Hampton Life Saving Club could be expected to build a beach of varying width for a length not exceeding 1,000 feet to the north of it.

2. A timber control groyne 250 feet long was completed in February this year to' provide information as to the rate of sand accumulation which could be expected from the works referred to in question No.1, and this is currently under observation.

3. A study is being made on possible improvements to harbor facilities at Lome.

POLLUTION OF BEACH AT SHALLOW INLET.


Whether pollution by oil has been reported in the vicinity of the beach at Shallow Inlet during the last twelve months; if so, whether this report was investigated, and what was the result of such investigation?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is-

Pollution in the vicinity of Shallow Inlet, Waratah Bay on 17th July, 1968, was reported. A sample was obtained and preliminary inspection indicated that it was not oil. The sample was referred to the State Laboratories for a report which has not yet been received.

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. WIDENING AND OVER-PASS WORKS AT

GEELONG.

Mr. TR~ZISE (Geelp.ng North) asked the Minister. of Public Works-

1. What were the ·various stages of work to be undertaken on the widening and overpass works proposed for Melbourne-road, North Geelong, and Latrobe-terrace, West Geelong?

2. When each such stage will be commenced and completed?


Melbourne-road: Between Separation-street and Latrobe-terrace there are many stages of work and the first stage which is the work at Separation-street where the highway crosses the railway is in hand and should be completed by June, 1970.

Latrobe-terrace: The Country Roads Board has no definite plans for works on Latrobe-terrace as yet.

UNCLASSIFIED ROADS: SUBSIDIES.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Whether the Country Roads Board will give consideration to increasing the present subsidy towards the costs of country" town roads" to the old basis of three to one?


When allocating funds to municipal councils for works on unclassified roads, which include country town or city roads, the Board takes into consideration a number of factors, such as the interests served by the road, size of project and the financial position of the municipality. The amount of a council's contribution towards works therefore varies from road to road in various municipalities.

ROADS (SPECIAL PROJECTS) ACT. EXPENDITURE: FUTURE WORKS.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Public Works-

1. How much money has been provided by motorists towards the cost of the Country Roads Board cc special projects" works in each year since the enactment of the Roads (Special Projects) Act 1965?

2. When it is expected the Board will submit its next recommendation to the Government for these works?


1. The amounts expended by the Country Roads Board and charged to the Roads

302 Housing [ASSEMBLY.] . Commission.

(Special Projects) Fund in each year since the enactment of the Roads (Special Projects) Act in 1965 are-

Financial Year. 1965-66 1966-67 .. 1967-68 ..

Amount. $1,654,374 $3,310,762 $2,652,122

2. The Board is at present considering recommendations regarding additional projects for submission to the Government.

HOUSING COMMISSION. SPONSORSHIP OF FLATS IN ESSENDON.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Housing-

How many applications for sponsorship for Housing Commission flats have been approved and submitted by the City of Essendon since 1960, and how many of these applicants have been accommodated?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-The answer is-

The following sponsorships have been received from the City of Essendon:-

Lone persons 121 Low rental (Darby and Joan) .. 27

Of these, 47 lone persons and seventeen Darby and Joan cases have been accommodated.

WELFARE SERVICES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Housing

Whether a decision has yet been reached regarding the appointment of welfare officers to operate in Housing Commission areas?


The employment by the Housing Commission of welfare officers to operate solely in Commission areas could conflict with the activities of the Social Welfare Branch, which is responsible for the provision of welfare services over the State as a whole. 1 prefer the existing liaison between the Departments.

ESTABLISHMENT OF SHOPPING CENTRES IN CORIO.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Housing-

1. What stage has been reached in the proposal to establish a shopping centre in the Housing Commission estate at Bacchus Marsh-road, Corio?

2. When it is expected such facilities will be completed?

3. What is the comparative position regarding shop establishment at Nevadaavenue, Corio?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-The answers are-

1. Planning approval was recently obtained to a major shopping centre located on the south-west corner of Bacchus Marshroad and Purnell-road, Corio. The Commission is in course of preparing a scheme for development of the site before calling public tenders.

2. Undetermined, depending on result of tender call.

3. Nevada-avenue shopping centre caters for local needs only, with five shop sites, of which one has been sold but as yet is undeveloped. This follows several tender calls for these sites.

F AUL TS IN HOT WATER SERVICES IN CORIO.


1. How many complaints of faults in hot water services have been received from residents of Housing Commission units of the Corio area?

2. What firms manufactured and supplied such hot water services?

3. What action he contemplates to adequately r~air or replace such services?


1. Since January, 1968: Gas hot water services-nil; briquette hot water' services-59.

2. Briquette-Metters Ltd. (Viscount). " "" (Aronde).

-R. Edmonds & Sons Pty. Ltd. (Edson).

3. Repairs have been carried out on all units where faults have been reported.

(a) . On sold units, complaints, other than .. Haff valve" complaints, are attended to by the supplier if the fault occurs within the warranty period (twelve months). Outside this period, any necessary repairs are the responsibility of the purchaser. On units of any age, where .. Haff valves" have been fitted to the briquette hot water service, and where any reported fault is within the .. Haff valve", the necessary and final rectification is carried out by the Housing Commission, Victoria.

(b) On tenanted units, immediate action is taken by the Housing Commission's maintenance officer to have the necessary repairs carried out.

Aboriginal [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Affairs. 303

ABORIGINAL AFFAIRS. FOOTBALL TEAM'S OVERSEAS VISIT: PROPOSED INCLUSION OF ABORIGINE.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs-

Whether an approach was made by the " Galahs" Australian rules football touring team to seek assistance to advertise Aboriginal-manufactured articles in overseas countries; if so, what was the basis of such an approach and what decision was given to the "Galahs"?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister for Aboriginal Affairs) .-The answer is-

Yes. On 2nd September, a request was received from Harry Beitzel & Associates Pty. Ltd. for assistance to. locate a full-blood Aboriginal person for the purpose of going on an overseas tour in association with the visit of the "Galahs" football team to various countries. The purpose would be to give displays of boomerang throwing, didgeridoo playing, tribal dancing in full " dress", provide AbQoriginal gifts and open up agencies for Aboriginal craft and art work overseas, as well as boosting attendances at fixtures. The latter part of the paragraph is taken verbatim from a letter I received from Mr. Beitzel.

In addition, it was requested that between $4,000 and $5,000 be made available to cover the cost of the Aboriginal person and a travelling companion, as the Aboriginal person was to travel separately from the team.

As I was unable to agree to the request as proposed, I discussed the matter personally with Mr. Beitzel, and subsequent to this discussion was advised that he wished to withdraw his request.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION.

DISPLAY HOMES: PURCHASE AND SALE.

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power-

Whether the State Electricity Commission is engaged in the purchase of display homes from building companies which advertise electrical appliances; if so-( a) what are the names of the building companies involved; (b) how many such homes were purchased, and from which companies; (c) where the homes are located; (d) what was the purchase price of each home; (e) how many such homes were subsequently sold, and what was the resale price of each home; (f) whether it is the custom of the Commission to sell such homes to its employees; if not, why; and (g) whether the Commission assists its employees to purchase homes on contract or by any other method?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-The answer is-

No, but the State Electricity Commission has built two display houses to advertise electricity and briquettes. Offers to build the houses were invited by public tender.

(a) to (e).

(a). (b) Name of Builders. (c) Location of Houses. (d) Purchase (e) Sale Price. Price.

$ $

R. and J. Norton, 64 Brighton-street, " Gold Medallion House" cnr. 23,000 Frankston High-street road and Boronia-

19,500

drive, Glen Waverley Ray Meagher, 323 Whitehorse-road, "Welcome House ", Lot 5, Lum- 20,855 Still in

Nunawading road, Glen Waverley use for

(f) No. The house was passed in at public auction and subsequently sold at valuation.

(g) Not in respect of this type of house. The Commission provides assistance to its employees in the. Latrobe Valley to purchase Housing Commission houses and State Electricity Commission houses at Newborough and Yalloum North.

The house still in use for display was built only one month ago.

display

OPERATION OF BONUS SCHEME.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power- .

With reference to the State Electricity Commission bonus scheme-( a) when such scheme was initiated; (b) how many employees have received " prospectspotting" bonuses; (c) what amount has been paid to' date; and (d) how long thll scheme will remain in operation?

304 Education [ASSEMBLY. ] Department.

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answer is-

(a) 16th July, 1968. (b) Nine. (c) Forty-five dollars. (d) Indefinitely.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT.

CLASS-ROOMS IN BROADMEADOWS ELECTORATE.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. How many primary and secondary schools, respectively, in the Broadmeadows electorate have been listed to receive additional permanent class-rooms during the current financial year?

2. What number of additional permanent class-rooms will be available for the start of the 1969 school year?

3. Whether any portable class-rooms will be provided at primary and secondary schools in the above electorate for the 1969 school year?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has provided the following answers:-

1. Two primary schools and no high schools.

2. I am unable to indicate the number of additional permanent class-rooms that will be available for the start of the 1969 school year. To a large extent this will depend on the rate of building construction.

3. A survey to determine portable classroom needs for 1969 is not yet complete. The survey has been delayed as long as possible in order that a more accurate assessment of the need!; may be obtained.

SECONDARY SCHOOLS: SUBSIDIES FOR BUILDING AND GROUND WORKS.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. What amounts were available to high and technical schools, respectively, . during this financial year for subsidizing building and ground works?

2. On what date these amounts were fully committed?

3. What is the total amount of rejected applications for such subsidy since that date for high and technical schools, respectively?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has furnished the following answers:-

1. The sum of $300,000 was made available for buildings, grounds and furniture subsidies to primary, high and technical schools in this financial year. Of this amount, $45,413 was allocated to high schools and $35,685 to technical schools.

2. 26th July, 1968. 3. High schools-$6,004.

Technical schools-$2,366.

COOKERY CLASSES: PAYMENT FOR LOSSES.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Educa tion-

1. Whether a change has been made in the method of payment to high schools to cover losses incurred by cookery classes; if so, on what date this was introduced, and on what date high schools were advised?

2. What is the change in method of payment, and why this change was necessary?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answers provided by the Minister of Education are-

1 and 2. No change has been made in the method of payment to high schools to cover losses incurred by cookery classes.

KEON PARK TECHNICAL SCHOOL: ADDITIONAL CLASS-ROOMS.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

Whether provision has been made for the supply of additional class-rooms for Keon Park Te~hnical School; if not, whether the portable class-rooms at present occupied by Lalor Technical School on the Keon Park Technical School site will be made available to the latter school next year?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has supplied the following answer:-

The allocation of additional class-rooms to all technical schools including Keon Park will be made during November when the needs of all schools in the State are known.

Education [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Department. 305

UNIVERSITY HIGH SCHOOL: CHANGE OF SITE.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

Whether his attention has been drawn to recent press reports that representations have been renewed by the Royal Melbourne Hospital authorities for the acquisition of the site occupied by the University High School; if so, whether the Government has received any such request, what was the nature of same, and what reply has been given or is proposed?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer supplied by the Minister of Education is-

Yes; a request from the Minister of Health to the Minister of Education that a further conference be held to see whether a long range plan could be worked out. It was agreed in conference between representatives of the two Departments that if a move was to take place it should be a single move, not a move in stages, and that a fully detailed and documented statement should be prepared for presentation to Cabinet.

OPPORTUNITY OR REMEDIAL CLASSES IN DEER PARK ELECTORATE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. How many opportunity or remedial classes, respectively, are conducted in primary schools in the Deer Park electorate?

2. What procedures are adopted for the establishment of these classes?

3. Whether the Education Department encourages the establishment of such classes in schools where migrant children predominate; if so, whether consideration will be given to establishing such classes in the Deer Park electorate?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has supplied the following answers:-

1. None. 2. On the request of the head master,

supported by the district inspector, a survey is made by the Psychology and Guidance Branch. If the need is proved, and staff and accommodation are available, the class is established immediately. Recent surveys have shown an increasing tendency for schools to provide for individual differences so effectively that remedial problems are minimized.

3. Opportunity grades, opportunity-remedial centres and remedial centres are designed to assist children who have remediable educational needs. For migrant children, direct assistance is given in the teaching of English, and this assistance has been extended to schools within the Deer Park electorate.

ST. ALBANS SPECIAL SCHOOL: CONSTRUCTION TENDERS.


When tenders will be called for the construction of the proposed st. Albans special school?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer supplied by the Minister of Education is-

The erection of a special school at St. Albans is included in the Education Department's building programme. The Minister is unable to indicate at this time, when tenders will be -called for the construction of the school.

LEONGATHA TECHNICAL SCHOOL: SITE: TENDERS: OCCUPATION DATE.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. When the siting of the permanent building for the Leongatha Technical School will be finalized?

2. When tenders for the erection of the building will be called?

3. When it is expected the new building will be ready for occupation?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are-

1. The siting of the permanent building for the Leongatha Technical School will be finalized in October, 1968.

2. Early in 1969. 3. Some sections will be ready for occu

pation in terms two and three, 1969, and the building will be wholly occupied in February, 1970.

ACQUISITION OF LAND AT SALE.


When the acquisition of land at Guthridge, Sale, owned by the estate of the late Elizabeth Allman, will be finalized?

306 Education Department. [ASSEMBLY.] Tractors.


Finality in this matter will depend on the future attitude of the executor or executors. The Crown Solicitor has been instructed to prepare applications to obtain title in the name of the Minister in accordance with section 54 of the Transfer of Land Act 1958.

MULTI-PURPOSE ROOMS: ApPORTIONMENT OF COST.


What school committees have contributed towards the cost of erecting multi-purpose rooms at their schools, and what was the Government grant and the local contribution, respectively, in each case?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has supplied the following answer:-

School. Education School

Department's Committee's

No. Name. Share. Share.

$ $

397 Mortlake .. 3,450 3,450

2185 Trafalgar .. 932 708

2948 Auburn .. 6,354 6,354

4886 Mullum .. 4,903 4,903

3177 Koonwarra .. 800 600

3941 Coburg West .. 11,252 11,252

1896 Windsor .. 5,000 5,588

854 Lake Bolac .. 3,433 I

2,983

BRUNSWICK TECHNICAL SCHOOL: REPLACEMENT.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

Whether the Education Department has any scheme for the replacement of the Brunswick Technical School; if so, what is the nature of the scheme and when any new building is likely to be commenced?


Yes; the scheme involves the erection of a new trade block to be followed by gradual demolition and replacement of existing buildings. As the scheme is dependent on the acquisition of additional land, I am not able to say precisely when building will commence.

TEACHERS TRIBUNAL. SALARY CLAIMS.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. What salary claims are at present before the Teachers Tribunal for determination?

2. When the Tribunal is likely to make a determination in respect of such claims?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are-

1. Claims for general salary increases have been received from six approved teacher organizations.

2. The Tribunal is presently considering the claims but it is not in a position to announce when a determination will be made.

TRACTORS. SAFETY DEVICES •

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

When it is proposed to make it compulsory for tractors to be fitted with safety devices approved by the Department of Labour and Industry?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answer is-

The question whether legislation should be enacted for this purpose is still under consideration.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. UNDERGROUND RAILWAY: COMMON

WEALTH FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE.

Mr. JONA (Hawthorn) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. On what date the submission for Commonwealth financial participation in the proposed Melbourne underground railway loop was forwarded to the Prime Minister?

RaillYay [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Department. 307

2. Whether the Prime Minister acknowledged the submission; if so, on what date, and what was the nature of his response?

3. In the event of Commonwealth refusal to participate financially in the project, whether it is proposed to take urgent and alternative steps to facilitate an early start on construction?

4. Whether offers have been received from any Australian or overseas construction companies to build the whole or part of the underground loop on a deferred payment basis; if so, how many offers have been received, and from what sources?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answers are-

1. 10th July, 1968. 2. An acknowledgment was made by the

Prime Minister on 19th July, advising that the submission would be examined, but no reply has been received to the request for a meeting to discuss this matter.

3. If the Commonwealth refuses to participate in the project, the Government will consider the position. However, it is difficult to see why the Commonwealth should not participate. It has been making available to the States for many years grants and loans for railway work and in the last financial year these grants alone totalled $22,000,000. Most of last year's money has been spent, I understand, on the trans-Australia line - a worthy projectwhich is coming to a close. The only barrier to overcome seems to be whether the Commonwealth will face up to the realities of urban transport and its overwhelming and rapidly increasing problem of moving people.

4 Considerable interest has been shown by . more than 30 overseas groups in the construction of the project-these groups come from Europe, Japan and the United States as well as Australia. We have received approaches from consultants, contractors, and organizations !nterested in arranging finance for the proJect. Twelve groups have indicated their interest in arranging deferred payment for services .and materials or finance for the total proJect. It has been indicated very positively that, as soon as we are in a position to negotiate on a firm basis-and this only requires the Commonwealth's participation-the number of groups interested would be considerably more and finance would be available overseas.

This is an important consideration when one considers the dominating position of the Commonwealth Treasury on the Loan Council. I do not wish to give details regarding the interest rates that will be available; I simply say that they are certainly realistic.

TRAFFIC ON ALBION-BROADMEADOWS Loop LINE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Transport-

How many broad-gauge and standardgauge trains, respectively, use the AlbionBroadmeadows loop line each week?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer is-

Traffic requirements fluctuate, but the average number of trains using the line per week is 105 broad gauge and 169 standard gauge.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS BOARD.

Bus SERVICE FOR KEILOR AND ST. ALBANS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Transport-

Whether the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board has given consideration to operating a bus service connecting with the Essendon aerodrome tram in Keilor-road and serving the Keilor township and St. Albans?


Yes, at various times during the past years, but on each occasion it has concluded that it should not take steps to operate such a service.

There are, of course, privately-operated bus services in the area, and I understand that the Board considers that these provide an adequate service.

RESULT OF OPERATIONS: FARE INCREASES.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. What was the deficit or surplus of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board for the year 1967-68, in respect of(a) bus operations; and (b) tram operations?

2. What was the surplus in respect of non-operating activities in that year?

3. On what dates tramway and bus fares were increased since July, 1955, and what was the average percentage increase on each occasion?


1. (a) Deficit bus operation, $778,936. (b) Deficit tram operation, $976,040.

2. Surplus non-operating activities, $211,159.

308 National Parks [ASSEMBLY.] Authority.

The figures supplied are subject to audit, which is not yet complete.

3. 30th October, 1955 .. 26·7 per cent. 14th September, 1958.. 29·9 per cent.

6th March, 1960 ., 12·2 per cent. 27th September, 1964.. 21·4 per cent. 14th August, 1966 16·4 per cent.

DEAF CHILDREN. KINDERGARTEN FOR WESTERN SUBURBS

OF MELBOURNE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

Whether the Government plans to provide a kindergarten for deaf children in the western suburbs of Melbourne; if so, when?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answer supplied by the Minister of Health is-

The Government has no plans at present to provide a kindergarten for deaf children in the western suburbs of Melbourne. The area is served bv Princess Elizabeth Kindergarten for Deaf Children at Burwood, the minimum age for admission being three and a half years. Younger children receive visits at their homes from a teacher for the deaf. When a child reaches three and a half years, his case is reviewed by the Ascertainment Committee for admission to the kindergarten, which offers boarding facilities. The committee decides whether a child should be admitted as a boarder or day pupil; if a day pupil, a bus service is available.

NATIONAL PARKS AUTHORITY. AREAS RESERVED FOR NATIONAL

PARKS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of State Development-

1. Which areas of land in the State have been reserved by Order in Council for national parks?

2. Where these areas are located, what is the area in each case, and on what date the respective orders were made?

3. Which areas of land have been examined by the National Parks Authority for the purpose of having such areas declared national parks, and whether there are any other areas currently under examination?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answers to the questions are lengthy, and T seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.

Leave was granted, and the answers were as follows:-

1. Since the passing of the National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965, the following two areas have been reserved by Order in Council for national parks purposes:-890 acres in the Parishes of Dunmore and Macarthur; and 2,870 acres in the Parish of Woraigworm.

Areas reserved by Order in Council prior to the passing of the National Parks Act 1956 were included in the schedule to the National Parks Act by section 7 of Act No. 6023 and are listed, together with areas reserved under subsequent legislation, in the Second Schedule to the reprinted National Parks Act 1958.

The National Parks Authority does not have records of areas reserved prior to 1956 and which may for any reason not have been included in the schedule to the National Parks Act. I add that copies are available in the Papers Room of a pamphlet giving years of reservation, areas, locations and principal features of the twenty national parks listed in the schedule to the National Parks Act 1958.

2.

Date of Location. Area. Order in

Council.

Area 1-Parishes of Macarthur and 890 acres 2nd August,

Dunmore Shire of more or less 1966 Minhamite. Contiguous with Mt. Eccles National Park.

Area 2-Parish of Woraigworm. 2.870 acres 28th Novem

Shire of Dimboola. South more or less ber, 1967 of township of Kiata

3. Since 1957, the following areas have been examined in detail and are at various stages of investigation:-

(1) Kiata Lowan sanctuary and Little Desert.

(2) Yanakie (addition to Wilson's Pro-montory).

(3) Sydenham organ pipes. (4) Brisbane ranges. (5) Wilkin. (6) Werribee gorge. (7) Bendigo whipstick. (8) Cape Everard area. (9) Point Nepean.

(10) Warby ranges. (11) Doradong-Kanawinka. (12) Baw Baws. (13) Cathedral range. (14) Point Addis. (15) Alpine. (16) Kulkyne forest. (17) Barmah forest.

Public Hospitals. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Margarine. 309

(18) Cobberas/Suggan Buggan. (19) Snowy river. (20) Youpayang. (21) Rocklands area and Black range. (22) Mt. Hotham. In addition, more than 100 other areas

have been suggested by various interested organizations. Some of these suggestions have subsequently been withdrawn, some have been examined and rejected, and the remainder will be examined in due course.

MARIBYRNONG RIVER.

POLLUTION.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

1. How many instances of pollution in t11,e Maribyrnong river have been reported, what number of prosecutions have been made, against whom, and how many were successful?

2. How many instances of pollution have been alleged against the Commonwealth Ordnance Factory, what number were investigated, how many prosecutions were recorded, and what total number and amount of fines were imposed?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are-

1. There have been no recent reports concerning pollution of the Maribyrnong river made to my Department. However, section 275 of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works Act 1958 makes the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works responsible for ensuring the cleanliness of rivers and streams within the Melbourne and metropolitan area, and section 150 makes it an offence for any person to allow any polluting substance to flow into or otherwise enter any public river, creek or watercourse within the metropolitan area. It is possible that complaints in regard to pollution may have been directed to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works.

2. No complaints concerning pollution from the Commonwealth Ordnance Factory have been directed to this Department.

PUBLIC HOSPITALS.

PATIENTS' ACCOUNTS WRITTEN OFF.


What total amounts of patients' accounts were written off by each public hospital in Victoria over the last five financial years?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The Minister of Health has supplied the following answer:-

Some hospitals raise a charge of $10 a day for each public ward patient admitted and then reduce the charge according to the income of the patient. The difference is written off. In other hospitals a rate of charge less than $10 a day may be determined on admission. However, in either case, rates may be further reduced and an appropriate amount written off because of the prolonged stay of the patient in hospital.

In the circumstances the information sought by the honorable member is not available. To obtain it, it would be necessary to make a detailed examination of the accounts of more than 160 hospitals over a period of five years.

MARGARINE. QUOTAS.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

1. What quotas are at present in operation with respect to the manufacture and/or sale of table margarine?

2. How long these quotas have been in existence, and on what principles they were based?

3. Whether these quotas have been revised; if so, when, and what revision was made in each case?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The answers supplied by the Minister of Agriculture are-

1. Under the Margarine Act, the maximum amount of table margarine which can be manufactured in Victoria (otherwise than for export beyond the Commonwealth of Australia) in any period of twelve months ending on the 30th June is 1,196 tons. There is no Victorian restriction on the amount of table margarine manufactured in another State which can be sold in this State. However, legislation in each State limits the quantity of table margarine which can be manufactured in that State. The over-all maximum amount of table margarine which can be manufactured and sold in Australia annually is 16,072 tons.

The Margarine Act requires that manufacturers of margarine in Victoria must be licensed, and in respect of table margarine provides that every licence shall contain a condition specifying the maximum amount which may be manufactured by the licensee during the currency of the licence.

310 Drought [ASSEMBLY.) Relief.

The current holders of licences to manufacture table margarine in Victoria, and the maximum amounts specified in their licences are as follows:-Nuttelex Food Products

Pty. Ltd. 243 tons 18 cwt. Sunburst Products Pty.

Ltd. 42 tons 2 cwt. Colvan Pty. Ltd. 910 tons

2. The licensing of table margarine manufacturers in this State, and the allocation of quotas under the licences, have been in operation since the 1st January, 1941. The allocation of quotas under the licences was determined having regard to the annual sales of table margarine in Victoria prior to the enactment of the Margarine Act 1940.

3. The maximum amount of table margarine which can be manufactured in Victoria, viz., 1,196 tons a year, has not been revised since the original legislation came into operation on the 1st January, 1941. However, in the intervening period, there have been many alterations to the quotas allocated to the various licence holders following the transfer of licences which the Governor in Council is empowered to authorize under the Act.

DROUGHT RELIEF.

EXPENDITURE: EXTENSION OF RELIEF PERIOD.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Lands-

l. What total amount has been spent on drought relief work?

2. What proportion of this amount was Commonwealth and State funds, respectively?

3. What authorities received money for drought relief work?

4. Whether the Government will make a request to the Commonwealth Government for funds to extend drought relief beyond 30th September, 1968?

5. In the event that there are no Commonwealth funds available, whether the Victorian Government will make funds available to extend drought relief beyond 30th September, 1968?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The answers are-

l. Excluding contributions by State Departments and municipalities the amount approved for special drought employment giving activities as at the 24th September, 1968, is $7,190,582. The actual expenditure by authorities and municipalities which has been reimbursed by the Treasury up to that date is $4,488,350. It will be appreciated that there are a number of authorities

involved and there is an accounting time lag between approval and actual claim on Treasury for reimbursement of expenditure.

2. The whole of the $7,190,582 is from Commonwealth funds. Generally, Commonwealth guide lines require a 75 per cent. labour content for their funds. Priority is given to works of a lasting community value which may not have the required labour content. To preserve eligibility for Commonwealth funds, Government Departments and municipalities have made considerable contributions for materials, plant hire, and the like. In addition to these direct contributions, Government Departments and municipalities have borne the considerable administrative and planning costs involved. At this stage, the actual total figure covering these contributions has not been calculated.

3. State Government Departments and drought declared municipalities and other local statutory authorities have received grants for special drought employment projects.

I am not sure that that answer is precisely in the terms desired by the honorable member. If he will tell me what he wants, I will see that the appropriate answer is supplied to him.

4. A request has already been made to the Commonwealth for funds to enable drought employment projects to be extended beyond the 30th September, 1968, and receipt of this request was acknowledged by the Federal Government on the 18th September.

5. The Government is currently awaiting a reply to its request and is keeping the matter under consideration. However, levels of employment and unemployment relief are clearly the responsibility of the Commonwealth Government during the continuance of the existing CommonwealthState financial relationship.

MEAT INDUSTRY.

IMPORTS OF NEW ZEALAND LAMB.

For Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park), Mr. Wilton asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

What quantity of New Zealand lamb was imported into Victoria in each of the months of April, May, June, July, and August of this year?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The answer supplied by the Minister of Agriculture is

The information given in reply to this question is based on quarantine clearances issued for lamb imported from New

Vermin and Noxious Weeds [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Destruction Board. 311'

Zealand; these clearances are issued by quarantine officers of the Department of Agriculture on behalf of the Commonwealth quarantine authority.

This record of clearances issued shows that lamb carcasses or pieces and cuts were imported from New Zealand into Victoria as follows:-

April-Nil return. May-6,993 carcasses, 943 cartons of

pieces. June-5,879 carcasses, 4 cartons of

pieces. July-4,203 carcasses, 909 cartons of

pieces. August-500 carcasses, 1,591 cartons of

pieces.

REJECTION OF MUTTON IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

What was the rate of rejection of Victorian mutton in the United States of America during the last twelve months, and what were the reasons for rejection?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The Minister of Agriculture has supplied the following answer:-

Matters associated with the export of meat from Australia are the concern of the Commonwealth Department of Primary Industry. The Victorian Department of Agriculture does not have information available to it to enable a satisfactory answer to be given to the honorable member's question. An attempt will be made to procure the information requested from the Department of Primary Industry and it will be made available on receipt.

Information has previously been sought from the Department of Primary Industry in respect of condemnations for cysticercus ovis in the United States of America of mutton processed at Victorian establishments. The following rejection figures have been supplied:-

1968

-January. February. March. April. May.

---------Number of

rejections 7 16 11 6 -Total cartons

rejected 3,685 7,672 6,967 3,360 -

VERMIN AND NOXIOUS WEEDS DESTRUCTION BOARD.

SURVEY OF FOXES AND DINGOES.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Lands-

Whether the Vermin and Noxious Weeds Board is carrying out a survey of foxes and dingoes; if so, for what purpose?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The answer is-

The VeI1min and Noxious· Weeds Destruction Board is engaged in a project, the main purposes of which are to study the internal parasites and the food of the fox and dingo in Victoria.

As soon as it became apparent that mutton measles were a potential danger to our overseas market for mutton, the Board intensified its efforts to determine the abundance and distribution of this parasite.

It has long been known that domestic dogs were a host of the sheep-measles tape-worm, as well as the hydatid tapeworm. The extent to which foxes and dingoes were hosts of the sheep-measles tape-worm was not so well known, and recent work has been orientated to determine the incidence of this tape-worm in these pest animals. This change in emphasis in this project has been discussed with the Australian Meat Research Committee and the Department of Agriculture, to ensure that full support and liaison was forthcoming on this important study. A research officer and technical assistant were appointed for this project early in 1968 and good progress is being achieved in this work.

HUME RESERVOIR. QUANTITY OF WATER IN STORAGE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Wate'r Supply-

What is the present quantity of water held in storage in the Hume reservoir, and whether this holding indicates a necessity for a further period of restriction in water allocation to the three participating States in terms of the River Murray waters agreement?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister 'Of W'ater Supply).-The answer lis-

The volume of water in store in Hume reservoir this morning (25th September, 1968) was 1,795,000 acre-feet which is 72 per cent. of the full capacity of 2,500,000 acre-feet. The terms of the River Murray waters agreement do not necessitate the declaration of a period of restriction in this situation. However, the River Murray Commission is watching the position closely and has discretion, under the agreement, to declare a period of restriction if the

312 Leave of Absence. [ASSEMBLY.] . Margarine (Amendment) Bill.

situation should warrant it having regard to storage behaviour and inflows as the season progresses.

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

REPORT ON PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT.

Mr. TAYLOR (Balwyn), chairman, presented the report 'Of the Committee Oof Public Accounts on the Public Works Depa,rtm'ent, together with ·an ·appendix.

It was ordelred that they be ,la'id on the table and be printed.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the

OppositJion).----By ,leave, I move-That leave of absence for one month,

on account of illness, be granted to William Thomas Divers, Esq., the honorable member for Footscray.

The motion was 'agreed ·to.

STATE FORESTS LOAN APPLICATION BILL.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) presented 'a message ,from His Excellency the LieutenantGovernor r·ecommending that an appropriation be ·made ,firom the Consolidated Revenue fOor the purposes of a BiB to sanction the issue and application of loan money for works, and 'Other purposes relating to State fiorests.

A resolution in acoordance Wlith the ·recom'mendation ·was passed in Com·mittee and adopted by the Hous·e.

On the ·motion of Mr. MEAGHER (Minister IOf Forests), the Bill was brought .in 'and read a first time.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION BILL.

Mr. BALFOUR (Mlinisteir for Fuel and Power) moved foor leave ~D bring in a Bill to. amend the State Electricity Act 1958.

The motioOn w'as agreed to. The Bin was brought in ·and read

a first time.

MARGARINE (AMENDMENn BILL. Mr. BALFOUR {Minister .for Fuel

and Power) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The Government has received representations from the Consumers Protection Council, organizations connected with the dairying industry and manufacturers of table margarine in this State, all expressing concern at the methods emplDyed in the promotion and marketing of some brands of cooking margarine. In these representations, attention has been drawn to the significant increase in the 'marketing of cooking margarines cDloured and flavoured to. resemble butter, and advertised and presented for sale in such a way as to. create the impression that the products are not cooking margarine at all, but " spreads" as good as or superior to butter and table margarine.

The organizations from which these representations emanated have requested the Government to take action to ensure that the marketing of cooking margarine conforms with the intentions of the Margarine Act, namely, that the product is manufactured and sold for cooking purposes only, and as such should not be in competition with butter and table margarine.

The Government has considered all aspects of the matters raised in these representations and has decided, in the interests of consumers, the dairying industry, table margarine manufacturers and thDse cooking margarine manufacturers who have not attempted to market their products as "spreads", that the existing legislation should be amended. The amendments proposed are designed to. prevent any further misleading advertising and presentation, and to restore the situation envisaged by the original legislation that CDDking margarine wDuld be sold for cooking purpDses Dnly and would not therefDre cDmpete with either butter Dr table margarine.

In making this decision, the GDVernment has taken aCCDunt of the following factors:-

Margarine [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 313

First, the current provisions of the Act require that packages of cooking margarine shall be labelled with the expression "cooking margarine for cooking purposes only". There is no requirement that any reference should be made on the package to the composition of cooking margarine, and this defect in the legislation is significant in view of the subtle methods adopted in advertising certain brands of cooking margarine as "spreads". Honorable members will be familiar with such expressions as "The law says it must be labelled cooking margarine, but there is no law to say you can't spread it"; or "You wouldn't use a quality instant spread as good as this to cook with, would you?" These suggestions as to suitability for "spreading" are extended further to packaging, and many brands of cooking margarine on sale have some reference to " spread" on the wrapper or container. Furthermore, the prescribed expression "cooking margarine for cooking purposes only" is often printed in a colour which, in certain lights and positions, makes it very difficult to read against the background colour of the wrapper or container.

The conclusion that these brands of cooking margarine are being promoted as substitutes for butter and table margarine is inescapable. However, the plain fact of the matter is that, irrespective of spreadability, beef fat and/or mutton fat comprise 90 per cent. of all the fats and oils in any packet of cooking margarine. Any product labelled cooking margarine which does not have this composition must be table margarine, and would therefore be illegally labelled.

It is not, and has never been, the Government's policy to limit the production of cooking margarine manufactured and sold for cooking purposes. However, the Government believes that it has a responsibility to consumers to ensure that they are aware of the composition of cooking margarine when they purchase it, and

tha t they are in a position to exercise their own judgment as to how they will use it.

Secondly, the marketing of brands of cooking margarine coloured and flavoured to resemble butter has created a situation in which these products are in direct competition with butter. The increasing quantities of such margarine now available have had a serious adverse effect on butter sales in this State. Over the past five weeks or so, butter sales have declined by 10 per cent. and if this trend continues the sales drop could well be 20 per cent. by the end of the financial year. If this occurred, the annual quantity involved, 6,600 tons, would have to be exported at a loss of $2,640,000 if sold on world markets. This could well prove impossible, in which case it would have to be converted to butter oil and the loss would then exceed $5,000,000.

The Victorian dairying industry makes an outstanding contribution to the economy of this State, and indeed to the Commonwealth. The total value of dairying production in Victoria is $172,000,000 and this represents 57 per cent. of the over-all national figure. The industry in Victoria provides a significant level of decentralized employment both in the actual business of dairy farming and in the manufacturing and processing of dairy products. The capital investment in dairy factories alone is some $50,000,000.

Butter is the most important dairy product in this State, and its significance to the industry can be gauged from the fact tha t in 1966-67 approximately 70 per cent. of Victorian wholemilk production was utilized in the manufacture of butter, of which 66 per cent. was exported. Honorable members will appreciate, therefore, that continued reduction of butter sales resulting from unfair and unrestricted competition from cooking margarine would have farreaching economic consequences.

Thirdly, the manufacture of table margarine in this State is subject to a quota imposed by the Act. Similar

314 Margarine [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

requirements exist in other States. There are, however, no quotas, nor indeed any restrictions, placed on the amount of cooking margarine which can be manufactured and sold. In this situation, it is entirely unfair that table margarine manufacturers should be placed in the position of being unable to' sell their quota production because of inraads intO' their market by a product which is advertised as a "spread", but which, in accardance with the Act, is far caaking purposes anly.

Far these reasans, the Government prapases to' amend the existing legislatian. The Bill pravides in clause 3 for the particulars which must be printed an packages cantaining caaking margarine to' include a precise descriptian af the campasitian af the product. Detailed requirements regarding the lettering and positioning af matter to' be printed an packages af cooking margarine are prescribed in the regulations under the Act, and it is prapased to' amend these regulatians to' provide that the printing is to' be in calours af distinct cantrast to' ensure that the information to be canveyed is easily read.

Clause 4 inserts a new sectian in the Act under which it will be an offence to' manufacture ar sell any cooking margarine to which has been added any prescribed calauring ar flavouring substance. In this cannexian the interpretations af " calauring substance" and " flavauring substance" are cantained in clause 2. The additive substances which at present are cansidered to be the principal means by which the resemblance of caoking margarine to' butter is achieved are beta-caratene and diacetyl.

Beta-carotene is the mast impartant naturally-accurring substance fram which vitamin A is derived. It is used as a yellow colouring agent far faads and is largely respansible far the natural yellow colour in butter. Its additian with vitamin A to' caaking margarines gives them a yellaw calaur similar to' butter. Caaking margarine

Mr. Balfour.

manufacturers whO' desire to dO' sa can achieve any degree of vitamin A fortification of their products by using alternative forms such as vitamin A alcohol or vitamin A esters. Prohibition of the use of beta-caratene will not therefore impose any hardshIp. Diacetyl is the major factar in the natural aroma and flavour of butter. It can be praduced synthetically with identical properties to the naturally-accurring substance in butter. Its use in cooking margarine achieves nO' purpase other than to' praduce the resemblance to' butter.

It is prapased therefare to' prescribe in the regula tians under the Act these two substances for the purpases af the new sectian l3A. The reasan far prescribing the substances by regulatian rather than specifying them in the Act is that alternative substances achieving the same effect cauld became available, and it wauld then be essential to' take prampt actian to' prevent their use in caaking margarine. Under clause 5, the Governor in Council is empawered to make regulations prescribingc.olouring or flavO'uring substances which may not be added t.o coaking margarine.

1ihis Bill will give effect to' the intention of the existing legislation tha t cooking margarine should not be ma'rk'eted and sold as a table spread -in cO'mpetitian with butter and table margarine. At ,the same time it will ensure that ,consumers are nat misled by dubiaus advertising and presentatian, but will know exactly what they are buying. It will nat in any way limit the pr.oductian of caoking margarine, and ,there is no reason why suppl'ies should nO't be freely and readily available to those who wish to purchase the pr.aduct. This cooking margarine will, hawever, be -in its natural form cansisting basically of animal fats withaut the prescribed 'cO' louring or flavouring additives. I commend the Bill to' the H·ouse.

On the motian of Mr. STONEHAM ('Midlands), the debate was adjourned.

Perpetuities and [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Accumulations Bill. 315

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, October 2.

PERPETUITIES AND ACCUMULATIONS BILL.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttomeyGeneral) .-oJ} move-

That this Bill be now read a second time.

It is in precisely the same terms .as the measure of the same name which ,was introduced into this House during the last sessional period, but which lapsed because of the prorogation of Parliament. Honorable members will recall that :the Bill dealt with two highly technical rules of property law, which restrict the extent to which a person may create future interests in property, when disposing .of it by deed 'Or wHI, .or in some other manner.

It proposed to modify the rule aga1inst perpetuities, which has been proved rOo be f'Ounded on a pr'Oper principle, but gives rise to a number of diffi:cult problems in practice, and to abolish the rule :against accumulations, which is now felt to serve no useful purpose. 1 explained the pr.ovisions of the Bill in detail when moving its second reading .on the 10th April this year. A report of the pr'Oceedings appears in Hansard at page 4218. It is a highly technical and legal explanation of the measure, and 1 see no reason why 1 should weary the House by recapitulating it.

The proposals contained lin the Bill were referred to the Statute Law ~evision Commlittee for examination and report following its introduction, but the committee was unable to complete its examination in tim,e to m,ake its report before ,the end of :the last sessional period. 1 understand, however, that a draft report is available for consideration by the newlyappointed committee in the event 'Of the House seeing fit to 'adj.ourn the debate and again refer the proposals totJhat committee. The new committee is entitled to take advantage of the inquiries made by the previous committee. I com'mend 'the Bill to the House.

On the motion of IMr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West), the debate was 'adjourned.

'It was .ordered that the debate be adjourned until next day.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) .--JBy leave, I move-

That the proposals contained in this Bill be referred to the Statute Law Revision Committee for examination and report.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .--1 support the motion.

The motion was agreed to.

PROPERTY LAW (AMENDMENT) BILL.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttomeyGeneral) .--J move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. This short Bill proposes two amendments of the Property Law Act 1958, the fi'rst being designed to rem'Ove an anomaly in respect of the appointment and removal from 'Office of Deputy Registrars-General. The 'Other am'endment is intended to extend the fiacilities of the office .of the RegistrarGeneral for the depositing of wills of residents .of this State, and to provide for the preservation in the State Library of 'Old wills which have not been the subject of any applioation for probate or letters of administration.

The first ,amendment appears' lin dause 2 of the Bill. Sub-section (2) of secti'On 5 ,of the Property Law Act 1958 enables ,the Govern,or in Council, subject to the PubHc Service Act 1958, to appoint and remove, Deputy Registrars-General. On the other hand, the Transfer of Land Act 1958 provides foor appointment of Assistant Registrars of Titles under the provisions of the Public Service Act. As in many cas'es the same 'Officer is appointed both as 'an Asslis'tant Registrar of Titles 'and as a Deputy Registrar-General, it is desirable :that the m'ethod of appointment under the two Acts should be uniform. To ,achieve this end, clause 2 ·amends sub-section (2) of section 5 to provide that the Registrar-General and his Deputy Registra'rs-GeneraI shall be appointed subject to the Public

316 Property Law [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

Service Act. 'f.he clause also contains a saVting provision to ensure tbat present occupants of these positions shall continue in office.

The second amendment is contained in clause 3 .of the Bill. For many years, section 14 of the Property Law Act has enabled a resident of Victoria to depO'sit in the offi,ce of the Registra'r-General his or her last will and testament in a sealed envelope or cover. The document remains in the custody .of the Registrar-General, unless prey.iously required by the testator, until his or her death, and when this .occurs it is deHvered to the executor first named in the will 'Or, in case .of d.oubt, to suoh pers.on as the Court may order. There has also been provision for the payment of a fee on the depositing of such documents.

The section has been used, mainly, in respect .of wills 'Of service·men and, in fact, the Registrar-General states that of the approximately 16,000 wills at present lodged in his office, the bigger percentage were deposited either by the Repatriation Commission .or the Army Records Secti'on. It seems likely that a number of the wills have been revoked by later testamentary dispositions,.

'f.he Law Institute .of Victoria has brought to the notice .of the Government tha t clients of deceased sol,icitors, or solicitors who have ceased to' practise, s'Ometlimes encounter difficulties in ree-overing wills entrusted to' their solicitors f'Or safe custody. Furthermore, reti'red solicitors ·or their legal representatives are in a dilemma in providing for custody of wills held on behalf of former clients. The council of the Institute has therefore recommended that appropriate provision should he made in section 14 of the Property Law Act.

Clause 3 'Of the Bill is designed to give effect to' this recommendation, by substituting a new section 14. The clause provides that, in addition to such wills as have been deposited ,in the past, wills held by deceased solicitors or solioitors who have ceased or are about to ,ceas'e practising may

Mr. G. O. Reid.

be deposited without charge in the office of the Registrar-General. Provisions similar to' those contained in the present section in respect rof the depos,i,ting of wins and the delivery thereof are included in the clause. The clause alsO' enables the Regist~arGeneral, after a will has been held by him for 70 years, to transfer the docum'en t to the Library Council 'Of Victoria for preservation .on the same o?ndiUons as when it was held by hIm. The clause further provides that on receiving the will the council shall nO't 'make it aVa!Hableor lend.it to' 'any 'Other library, person, Department or institu tion.

It is felt that the amendments I have outlined will increase the effectiveness of these p~ovisions of the Property Law Act 1958, and I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), the debate was adjourned.

H was .ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, October 2.

FISHERIES BILL.

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .---,1 move--

That this Bill be now read a second time. In the spring session last year, the Fisheries (Amendment) Act was passed by this Par}.iament tOo provtide for the more effective management of the fishing industry. That legislatioon introduced a new licensing system for pers'Ons engaged in ,commercial fishing. The most notable features of the 1967 Act were that it-

(a) introduced a system of commerc1ial licences to' enable fit and proper persons to ,fish generally or to' fish particularly in the barracouta .or abalone fisheries or to take fishing ba1it for sale;

(b) lint~oduced a licensing system whereby boats registered under the Fisheries Act 1958 m·ay be employed to take ,crayfish for sale or to dredge for or take scallO'ps in Port Phillip Bay f.or sale ; and

Fisheries [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Bill. 317

(c) established a fund to be applied towards scienUfic, socio'logical, technological and economic research upO'n Victorian and adjacent commercial fisheries.

In the course of the debate on that Bill, the Chief Secretary indicated that following the passing .of the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1967 the Government would introduce a 'complete m'odernizatiofl of the Fisheries Act haV'ing regard to' the major and rapid changes which have taken place in the fishing industry. The Bill now before the House is a complete re-enactment of the Fisheries Act 1958, retaining the licensing system introduced by the amending Act in 1967, and extending that licensing system to include additional aspects of the commercial fishing industry.

I shall refer firrst to the additional commercial fishing licences introduced by this Bill. Clause 13 provides for two commercial fishing licences in addition to those provided for in the 1967 Act, namely, a processor's licence and ama:rine iharvesting licence. The processor's licence will entitle the holder to clean, cook, preserve, pack or otherwise pT'eprare or process on the premises specified in the, licence fish for sale by other persons from other premises. This licence will enable the Director of Fisheries and Wildlife to' exercise greater cont'rol over the hygienic handling .of ,fish in the processing plants, and to more effectively control the taking of undersized fish par-ticularly scallops. '

The ma'rine harvesting licence will entitle :the holder to harvest for sale aquatic weed or vegetation from the area described in the licence. Vegetation in shallow waters provides the prinoipaI grounds ~or fish breeding and if these waters became depleted of aquatic weeds and vegetation it could ultimately have a very serious effe'ct on the fish population.

The annual fee for the processor's licence will be $250. However, a concessional fee 'Of $100 is provided

where the processor is trading as 'a society registered under the Cooperation Act 1958 to promote the interests of fishermen, and is carrying .on business as such. The annual fee for a marine harvesting licence will be $100. Sub-clause (2) of clause 13 extends the present provisions of the Act with respect to a master fisherm'an's licence. lIt requires a person to be licensed as 'a master fishermen in order to' use any 'commercialfishing equipment.

The Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1967 also provided for the introduction of two new types of licences with respect to registered fishing boats. It empowered the Minister to license any registered fishing boat to be used-

(a) for the taking of crayfish for sale, and

(b) for dredging for or taking scallops in Port Phillip Bay for sale.

Clause 14 of this Bill extends those provisions to enable the Minister to issue a shark licence or trawl net licence with respect to a registered fishing boat. The shark licence will entitle the owner to employ the boat in taking shark by the use of long lines or nets otherwise than in any bay or inlet of the sea. The trawl net licence will entitle the owner to employ a boat otherwise than in any bay or inlet of the sea in taking fish by the use of Danish seine nets, trawl nets, lam para nets or purse seine nets. The annual licence fee for a shark licence will vary from $50 to $200 depending upon the length of th~ boat.

The Government is aware that a substantial number of professional fishermen fish for crayfish in season and shark at other times, and often their fishing periods overlap. The fee for a shark licence could be as much as $200 and the fee for a crayfish licence up to $300. Sub-clauses (2) and (3) of clause 15 provide a concessional fee for these fishermen. These sub-clauses enable a shark licence or a crayfish licence to be

318 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

endorsed on payment of the difference in the licence fees to permit the owner to use the boat in the other fishery.

Sub-clause (7) of clause 14 entitles the current owner of a registered fishing boat engaged immediately prior to the passing of this Bill in the taking of shark for sale by the use of long lines or nets or the taking of fish for sale by means of Danish seine, trawl, lampara or purse seine nets, to be granted a licence upon application and payment of the appropriate fee. The proviso of this sub-clause also amends the "licence of right" provisions of owners of registered fishing boats under the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1967. Under that Act a boat engaged in fishing in the scallop or crayfish industries immediately prior to the 19th December, 1967, is entitled to be granted a crayfish licence or scallop licence. The proviso enables the owner of the boat to obtain a new boat and to have that new boat licensed as of right in lieu of the old boat.

Under the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1967, all licence fees for commercial fishing licences are paid into the Fisheries Research Educa tion Extension and Development Fund. For easier reference, -in this Bill, the fund is called the Fisheries Research Fund. Pursuant to sub-clause (3) of clause 19, the moneys in the fund will be applied for or towards the costs of scientific, economic or other research upon and the management and development of Victorian commercial fisheries and adjacent commercial fisheries, including any matter referred to in clause 44 of this Bill which has application to commercial fisheries. The fund may also be applied to publication of resul ts and findings of research programmes and towards the cost of providing extension services and education to fishermen.

The costs of administering the fund together with the costs of enforcing the provisions of the Act relating to the licensing of commercial fishermen

Mr. Manson.

will be met by the annual payment to Consolidated Revenue of such sum as the Governor in Council by order published in the Government Gazette determines but not exceeding 10 per cent. of the amount collected in any year for payment into the fund.

Sub-clause (2) of clause 18 refers to "reciprocity" in relation to the registration of boats registered in other States. Fishermen in the crayfish, scallop and shark fisheries of Victoria, New South Wales, South Australia and Tasmania are often itinerant. Sub-clause (2) of clause 18 enables any fishing boat registered in another State and licensed in that State for the purpose of taking crayfish or shark for sale or taking fish for sale by means of Danish seine, trawl, lampara, or purse seine nets, if it was engaged in suc.h fishing in Victorian waters immediately prior to the 19th December, 1967, to be licensed in Victoria without fee for the purpose of carrying on that type of fishing.

This is part of an agreement between the administrations of the various States that crayfish, shark and trawl net licence fishermen shall not be required to pay high registration or licence fees in more than one State of the Commonwealth. This provision does not extend to scallop fishermen because there is need to restrict the number of fishermen in tha t fishery.

Such licences without fee will only enable a fisherman from another State to fish in Victorian waters for the same purpose and with the same equipment as he is enabled to do in the waters of his home State. If he desires to fish in Victorian waters for additional purposes and with the use of additional equipment, he can take out an extended licence on the payment of a fee.

I shall refer now to the important new matters which are contained in the Bill. Sub-section (1) of section 17 of the Fisheries Act 1958 prohibits angling in waters vested in or under the management of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of


Works, the Ballarat Water Commissioners, the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Trust, and any other waters which may be proclaimed for the purpose. Because of this provision the Fisheries and Wildlife Branch has been concerned with the policing of those waters. The effect of sub-clause (2) of clause 21 of this Bill will be that in future the responsible authority will have to prohibit a~gling by its own by-laws or regulatIOns and enforce those by-laws or regulations.

Clause 22 increases the fee for an inland angling licence and an amateur netting licence from $2 to $4. It is the view of the Government that where work is done on behalf of a section of the community that section should make more than a token contribution towards the cost of the work involved. The commercial fishermen have accepted this principle and have indicated their willingness to pay higher licensing fees as a contribution towards the improvement of the fisheries in which they are interested.

The Government believes that this principle should also be accepted by amateur fishermen, and I might say in this regard that the Victorian Piscatorial Council has been advocating increased amateur angling fees for some time. The facts of the matter are that the fees at present obtained from inland angling licences are not sufficient to maintain angling at its present level. Furthermore, if sufficient funds were available, inland fishing resources could be better managed.

There can be little doubt that Snobs Creek Hatchery is a successful enterprise, but if funds were available it could be made even more successful by the introduction of various refinements. A hatchery in itself does not necessarily contribute to the maintenance of angling. In fact, the wrong use of the fish produced from a hatchery can have the reverse effect. The only way in which hatchery production can be fully effective is by the use of research and adequate field work. However, in the

present situation the existing research and field staff is completely inadequate to enable this work to be carried out.

There is also the important aspect that angling has become an important part of the outdoor recreation of our community and as such requires much more supervision than it now receives. It has long been the wish of the Government to investigate and develop native fish fisheries in the interests of recreational fishing and tourism, and minor programmes have already been commenced on Murray cod and Macquarie perch. If more funds were available programmes could be commenced with respect to Australian bass and black fish.

Clause 22 also provides for the payment of a fee of $4 for the issue of a hoop net licence for the purpose of taking crayfish in marine waters. Clause 25 requires any person who forms and creates a fish habitat for clams, oysters, mussels, scallops, abalone, crayfish, prawns, yabbies, eels, fishing bait, bass, mussels, esturine perch, or salmon to first obtain a fish culture permit. This

-permit may be issued for periods of up to ten years at a fee of $200 for each year of the permit. Provision is made for refunds for surrendered permits.

Aft'er sennice of a show cause notice, the Minister may cancel a fish culture permit wher-e it lappears to him that the holder of :the perm1it has not taken p'r-oper measures for the cultivation of the area or that a natural habitat is being so stripp'ed or otherwise mismanaged that the production of fish fr-om that habitat has been reduced to such an extent as to threaten its destruction.

In the administration of the Act and to 'ascertain whether .or not the provisions of the A'ct or the regulations ar-e being observed, any inspector or officer- of the Branch authorized in writing by the Minister may, pursuant ·to clause 48, enter at any reasonable time upon lands -or waters or into any tent or into any building or structure other than a

320 Fisheries [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

dwelling house for the purposes speoified in the dause-for example, inspecting 'Or 'searching for any fishing 'equipment or fish 'Or f,or surveying any land~O'r the purposes of -the Act, and so on. Clause 48 also authorizes any inspector or member of the Police Force at any time, without a warrant, to search any parce.J, packet, bag, box, receptacle, boat or vehicle whatsoever, or any factory, processing es'tablishment, market, shop, sto're or other trade premises for fish or fishing equipment.

Sub-clause (7) of clause 49 empowers the court, where it is satisfied that the boat was used in connexian with an affence, to' cancel any licence, registration, permlit .or other authority issued in -relation to that boat.

Clauses 63 to' 68 relate to' the paisaning ar palluting af waters cantaining fish. Clause 63 p'ravides that lit will be an .offence for any persan to discharge lOr ,cause to be put or discharged intO' any waters containing fish any matter lOr thing presc~ibed f.or the purposes of the clause .or which is likely to render the waters poisanous or injurious to' fish, spawn, spawning grounds or faad af fish. The penalty far the offence will be 'a m'aximum of $500 or imprisonment .for six manths. This pr-avisian will not apply to a servant Qr agent of the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission who uses poisans lin accardance with specificattans furnished in writing by the Directar of Fisheries and W:i1dlife far clearing .or maintaining channels and drains under the contral af the Commission. Tohe Director is also empawered to cansen t to the use af poisans in Victorian waters far eradicatian of weeds.

Inspectars and O'ther autharized persans may enter up.on any land ar building f.ar the purpose af taking samples for analysis f~om any effluent being discharged intO' waters cantaining fish or from any waters containing fish, spawning gr:aunds, spawn or faad af fish. The pracedure to' be observed in taking samples is set out in clause 64 ,of the Bill. The samples

Mr. Manson.

will be analysed by an offici:alanalyst appointed by :the Governor in Council.

The clOurt is ,empowered by clause 67, at the request of ei'ther party to any hearing in relatian to affences and on being satisfied that there are special circumstances, to' cause a further part of the sample to be sent to an afficial analyst whO' is not an .offi'cer .of the Flishe'fi.es and Wildlife Branch. Clause 68 enables the ,Minister, by notice, to' direct any person to ·cease putting or discharging directly or indire:ctly into waters cantaining ,fish any matter or thing which is likely to' render the waters poisonous or 'injurious to fish, spawning graunds, spawn oor £ood .of fish. 1Ihe penialty ~or r-efusing or .failing to comply wirth that natice is a maximum af $100 or to' imprisonment far twelve months. Where it ,appears to' the caurt in any praceedings that any package, bag, tin, drum or other c.ontainer has written or printed thereon a statement to' the effect that lit contains any matter or thing prescribed to' be a p.oison for the purposes of section 63, the statement shall be prima facie eViidence that it contCliined or cantains that paison.

Clause 72 provides that, in any proceedings fO'r 'Offences, charts published or 'supplied by the Admiralty or by any naval force of Her IMajesty shall be evidence of any matter that lis apparent there an or of any distance calculated therefram. The clause also provides that, for the purpase 'Of m'aking calculatians,any bearings taken by an inspector by c.ompass or any distance, height or depth observed or calculated by an inspector by means 'Of any mechanical, elelctranic or 'sanic device lOr sdentific instruments shall be evidence af any distance, height or depth. The clause also provides that tin 'any proceedings the statement of an inspectar that any place is a place referred to' ,in any regulations made under the Act shall be p~ima facie evidence that the place described is the place re'~erred to.

The Bill alsO' provides foor the establlishm-ent by the Governor in Council of children's fishing reserves


where it will be an offence for any persDn ov,er sixteen years of age to' angle. ~he GDvernor in CDunoil may also. set aside ,waters fDr experimental purpDses. Pursuant to clause 81, the GDvernor in CDuncil may make regulatiDns Dn a wide variety of matters relating to fishing.

On the 'motiDn .of ,Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), the debate was adjourned.

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State DevelDpment) .-1 mDve-

That the debate' be adjourned until Wednesday, October 9.

Mr. WILTON {BroadmeadDws).I ask the IMinister to. grant an extension to. the adjournment of this debate if the OPPDsitiDn is not in a position to prDceed in twO' weeks' time. This is a 'comprehensive Bill and, as the M,inister is aware, :the fishing industry is very scattered. There are several areas avound ,the VictDrian ooast in which the :fishing industry is carried Dn and many of these are far apart. I am sure the Minister will agree that all parties have an equal respDnsibility to. ascertain the views Df thDse engaged in the industry.

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Devel,Dpment) .----11 think the vequest of the hDnorable member for Broadm'eadDws is reasDnable. U either .the LabDr Party or the Country Party is not ready to. prDceed with the debate in a fDrtnight, I shall be happy to grant an extensiDn of the adjDurnment.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) .-1 am not happy to. have this debate adjourned for such a short perio.d. This Bill prDposes a cDmplete re-enactment Df the Fisheries Act. Unless theGDvernment has any specific reason for wishing to. rush the Bill thrDugh--this would give rise to. even graver suspiciDns in my mindI see no. reaSDn why the debate ShDUld nDt be adjDurned for at least Dne mDnth.

lAs the honorable member for BroadmeadDws has stated, peDple engaged in the fishing industry are s'cattered over widely disltant parts of

the State. Many .of them operate .out of the State for cDnsiderable pedDds and are nDt readily available to discuss the prDpDsals cDntained in this measure and Dbtain a ,dear understanding of them. If the Minister is not prepared to ,accept my pvoposal, I 'shall mDve an amendm'ent that the adjDurnment be f.or a period of one month.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland SDuth) .-There are three large fishing ports in my electorate and some smaller ones. It is ,important that I ShDUld cDntact the peDple engaged in the fishing industry beoause the measure now be~Dre the House touches upon the1ir livelihoDd. 'I shall have to fDrward the p~Dposals to them for examina'bion and await their replies. H would not be possible to do .this wi:thina fortnight. After all, we are at the start 'Of the session'al period, and surely it would not be difficult for the M,inister to allow honorabl'e ,members 'Suffi:cient time in which to ascertain ,the v:iews of the fishing industry. As the hDnDrable member .for Broadmeadows has said, people engaged in the industry are scattered right arDund the ODast. It is only right that the debate ShDuld be ,adjDurned for a month.

Mr. MANSON {Minirste~ of State DevelDpment) (By leave) .-1 am normaUy a reas'Onable man, I think. I havealreadyc'Onceded that a fortnight's ,adjournment of the debat'e may not be long enough. There ds no need for an argument to. develop on ,this point. I suggest a ,cDmpromise. I shall mDve '~D'r Ian adjournment of three weeks, and I give an assurance that Ijf at the end of that time eithe'r the LabDlr Party or the Country Party is not ready to prDceed with the debate, a little mDre time fDr cDnsideratiDn of the Bill will be allowed.

By leave, the motiDn was withdrawn.

On the motion of Mr. MANSON (Minister of State DeveIDpment), the

debate w,as .adjDurned until Wednesday, October 16.

322 State Coal Mines [ASSEMBLY.] (Winding Up) Bill.

STATE COAL MINES (WINDING UP) BILL.

Mr. WILCOX (M:inister of T'fansport).-I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. 'J1his BiU has two main objectives. The first is to enable the winding up of the State eoa,l M,ines at Wonthaggi, and the second is toext'end the pension provisions of the Coal Mines Act 1958 ,to g.ive :those mine workers -at present employed at these coral mdnes, who are 55 years of ·age 'Or older, retirement on full pension.

Although he does not repres·ent the area in wh~ich the 'mines are located, I am sure that the honorable member for Gippsland South has a g.reat knowledge of the history of Gippsland iand will know ·muoh of what I am about to relate, as, indeed, wiU the honorable member for Gippsland West. How·ever, it -m'ay be not unimportant to let the House know a little of the history 'Of the mines.

The railways have been us-ing Gippsland ,coal slince befo~e the tum of the century but they, 'and the bas:ic industries of thi,s State, were very heavily dependent upon supplies of coal f.rom New South W·ales. As honorable members wiH know, in earlier days coal was a much more important source of power for'industry and transport than it 'rs today. Our dependence IOn New South Wales did not create ra happy situation; when lindustria'l·h~oubles lin New South Wales stopped supplies, the position wasoritical ,f,or Victoria. Like 'Other honorable members, I can recall the great troubles in the black coal supply areas subsequent to the second world w'a,r.

It was in this atmosphere of dependen'ce on New South Wales that the State Coal Mine at Wonthaggi was 'Opened in 1909. The urgency of the situation i,s liUustrated by the rapidity ,with whi'ch work w·as c:arried out once the decision 'was taken. Soon 'after the ·mines opened, some 2,500 people w·ere living in a canvas town near ·the mine-the present township of Wonthaggi was set out a year later-and with the methods

then available for raHway construction ·almost 14 miles of ·raHway track was laid to the mine between the time Padiam'ent ·authorized the building of the line ,in December, 1909, ·and when the first coal wa's raHed out in February 1910.

Mr. B. J. EVANs.-That was quicker than the job at Barry Beach.

Mr. WILCOX.-I was about to interp'Ose that that was not a bad record :in those days. There is nothing wrong ·with the Barry Beach job; that, too, is proceeding sati:s.fa'ctorily. It is interesting :that, 60 years ago, that sort of ,result could be achJeved.

Production of the mine ~ose to :a peak of 662,000 tons ,in 1930, but f~om that time ,it has been falling. Ten years ·ago lit fell to bellOW 100,000 tons, .and 'last year only 33,000 tons of cOial were mlined. In the years of peak production, 1,821 men were employed. At the cl'O's·e of ,last financial year, there were 104.

The operations 'Of the ·mine :last resulted in a profit in 1929. Losses in the past ten years total almost $5,000,000, with the loss last year approaching $400,000. As 'aU honorable members-certainly the member who represents the district-will appreciate, the eventual fate of the· mine has been evident for many years, so much so that no additional staff have been employed there since 1956. Honorable members win :also 'appr~ date the position of the ·mine and <that the market foor this coal can be expected ;to diminish further. In addition, ope,rations wHI become crncreas,ingly difficult, 'and I underst'and that improved effidency by ·mechaniz.ation of mining lin this ·a'rea :is not 'a pracHcal proposition.

I believe th,i,s brief history is relevant to an understanding of the measure before the House. Indeed, the story of the mine reveals a most interesting facet of Viktoda's lindustrial development. Hav.ing given that short histor.ical survey, I shaU say something of the specific provisions of the Bill. Its first purpose ·is to wind up the 'Operations of the State Coal Mine at Wonthagg.i. To do this, it is

State Coal Mines [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] (Winding Up) Bill. 323

first necessary to Irepeal Part H. of rnhe Coal Mines Act 1958 which provides for the 'OperatiDn of the State Coal Mine by the Railways Commiss~oners.

Sections 100 and 101 'Of the State Ele'ctricity Commission Act 1958 'are also repealed as .a complem'entary m'easure. This in no way affec:ts the present operatiDns of the CommissiDn. Clause 3 of the BiB cDntains the appropriate provislion. This claus'e also makes provision for the m,a;intenance of the State Coa,l Mine DepredatiDn Fund, for the payment of the costs .of winding up the ,mine from that fund, and ,~or the eventua:l ,transfer of the moneys lin the fund toO Consolidated Revenue.

The Railw'ays OO'mm,issioners 'are empowered by clause 4 to dismantle works and to dispose of 'm,aterials 'and land previously used ,for m.ining purposes. They 'are required to' pay any proceeds ,from the ,sa,le of materials to' the State Coa'! Mine Depreoiation Fund and proceeds from the sale of l'and to the 'State Loans Repayment Fund. Rents and profits from the demise 'Of lands will be credited to railway income.

Lands which were formerly Crown lands will revert to the Crown. Special provisions have been made to protect the rights of leaseholders and ensure that the terms of the existing leases will continue.

The second purpose of the Bill is to provide early retirement fDr some miners. The provisions of the Coal Mines Act 1958 are being extended to enable workers to retire at 55 years of age with full pension rights. The Act now provides for the retirement of mine workers at 60 years of age. On retirement, workers receive a pension from the Coal Mine Workers Pension Fund to which they and the Government have cDntributed.

As the mine is now being closed and workers have no option but to' leave, the Government considers that the prDvisiDns Df the pensiDn scheme should be liberalized for those men who are 55 years of age or over at

the time of the closing of the mine, to enable them to. retire and receive a full pension.

Mr. STONEHAM.-How many employees will it cover?

Mr. WILCOX.-In the vicinity of twenty, but I shall inform the honorable member the exact figure later. The Bill requires that the Treasurer will pay to the pension fund the cost of these pensions from 1st January, 1969, until men who come within the scope of this concession reach 60 years of age. The Treasurer will alsO' pay to the pension fund, in addition to the normal Government contribution, the contributions which would have been made by those miners retired at ages between 55 and 60 years if the mine had continued in operation. Men who are not eligible for early retirement will receive all of the contributions they have made to the pension fund. I think honorable members generally will agree that this is a reasonable and desirable action. Of the men at present employed, 22 will benefit from this concession; seven others are eligible for rights under the Superannuation Act.

There is a special provision in clause 6 to allow a pension for Remigio Primo Grisotto, a former employee of the Coast Coal Mine at Woolamai. The workers at this mine contributed to the Coal Mine Workers PensiDn Fund in the same manner as those at the State Coal Mine and, if the CDast CDal Mine had not closed in 1966 when Mr. Grisotto was 58 years of age, he would have been eligible for a pension when he reached the age of 60 years this month. He was not eligible because he had not worked as a mine worker fDr at least 60 days in the twelve months immediately preceding his sixtieth birthday as is required by section 104 of the CDal Mines Act.

Mr. Grisotto was unable to meet this requirement because there were no other privately-owned black coal mines in which he cDuld get emplDYment and it was the 'policy of the State Coal Mine not to engage new

324 State Coal Mines [ASSEMBLY.] (Winding Up) Bill.

workers. This man has spent a lifetime in the coal mining industry, having been first employed in the State Coal Mine in 1929. Thrown out of work at the age of 58 years and with less than two years to go to retirement, he was debarred from receiving any benefits from the fund to which he had contributed since its inception in 1942. It seems reasonable that a concession should be made in this case, and clause 6 of the Bill provides accordingly. My colleague, the Minister of Mines, was most anxious that this provision should be included in the Bill. He was well supported by the Government and doubtless by the honorable member for Gippsland West.

Mr. STONEHAM.-Have these conditions been discussed with the men generally?

Mr. WILCOX.-There have been many discussions and we are getting along very well.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-Is Mr. Grisotto the only man who might be affected in this way?

Mr. WILCOX.-His is the only special case, so far as I know. I commend the Bill to the House, as its passage will enable the Railways Commissioners to cease opera tions at the mine on 31st December next. This date was announced some time ago. It is a convenient date for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Mr. J. Byrne, who has been manager for twelve years, is retiring. He is the only man known to the Commissioners who is available and qualified to operate the mine and he has, in fact, continued in his position for two years beyond his normal retiring age. Indeed, when Mr. Byrne was given leave of absence recently, he was replaced by a man now 69 years of age. Mr. Byrne deserves special mention. He has worked at the mine for 51 years, and became general manager in 1956 after seventeen years as under manager and mine manager. He represents much of the history of the mine, and I wish him well in his deserved retirement.

In dealing with the closing of the mine, the Government has sought to take many aspects into consideration, and it seems from the general attitude of the town that the operation is being successful. I understand that the shire council has an optimistic and progressive approach to the further development of Wonthaggi and I believe that it has a good future. The closing down of the mine has been brought about gradually. In 1958 there were 529 employees and this number has been gradually reduced.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-N 0 one has been replaced on leaving.

Mr. WILCOX.-That is so. The Railways Commissioners are taking steps in consultation with the miners' representatives to ensure that the men who will become redundant on the closing of the mine receive reasonable assistance, particularly in finding alternative employment. A survey is now being conducted to ascertain which men will require employment and what jobs will be available to them. Officers from the Railway Department and from the employment section of the Department of Labour and National Service have been in Wonthaggi recently.

Mr. STONEHAM.-What are the prospects of employment being available to these men?

Mr. WILCOX.-I am quite confident that this scheme will work. I know that the honorable member does not want it to.

Mr. STONEHAM.-The Minister should withdraw that remark.

Mr. WILCOX.-In addition, my colleague the Minister of Water Supply was in the town last week and the commencement of a sewerage scheme is under active consideration right now. If this goes ahead-it will take some time to get under way-it will be another piece of progress for Wonthaggi, and will undoubtedly help with the general employment position. Discussions are also taking place with the representatives of men at the mine on the question of severance pay for those workers who do

State Coal Mines [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] (Winding Up) Bill. 325

not take or are not eligible for early retirement. 1 feel that any outstanding matters such as this will be satisfactorily resolved.

In conclusion, I should also mention the ponies. They have not been forgotten and the Commissioners will give them away to suitable applicants; the only qualification will be that the new owner shall provide a good home for a faithful servant.

1 trust that the Bill will have a satisfactory passage through the House. 1 have been greatly assisted in this matter, not only by my Ministerial colleagues whom 1 have mentioned, but also by the honorable member for Gippsland West and the Honorable A. J. Hunt, M.L.C. It has been a good co-operative effort by the two Departments involved and other interested parties; and 1 feel sure that this matter will be concluded satisfactorily.

On the motion of Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands), the debate was adjourned.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 move-

That debate be adjourned until Wednesday, October 9.

Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands).-The Opposition believes that the debate on this Bill should be adjourned for at least three weeks.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) (By leave) .-Honorable members have known for some time wha t is proposed concerning the future of the Sta te Coal Mine. If, in two weeks' time, the honorable member for Midlands finds himself in a position of some embarrassment and requires additional time, I shall be prepared to listen to him; but 1 think he will find that sufficient ground work has

. been carried out to enable him to prepare himself for the resumption of the debate.

Mr. COCHRANE (Gippsland . West) .-On behalf of the Country ,Party, I seek an assurance from the Minister of Transport that if my party

Session 1968.-12

is not ready to proceed with the debate in two weeks' time a further adjournment will be granted.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of 'f.ransport) (By leave) .-1 do not want this matter to get out of hand. 1 have already informed the honorable member for Midlands that if he is in any embarrassment because of a two weeks' adjournment 1 shall be prepared to give considera tion to a further period of adjournment of the debate. 1 am sure that the matters which need to be resolved will be settled within the appropriate time. 1 am not prepared to give a further undertaking at this stage.

The motion was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Wednesday, October 9.

The sitting was suspended at 6.35 p.m. until 8.5 p.m.

NATIONAL PARKS (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 10) on the motion of Mr. Manson (Minister of State Development) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILTON (Broadme'adows).The purposes of th'is Bill are to provide for additions to existing national parks and to amend the principal Act to pernlit the National Parks Authority to undertake certain works which are at present prohibited. Clause 2 provides for the addition of 890 acres to the Mount Eccles National Park: The Opposition agrees that there is a necessity to establish further national parks in Victoria and tha.t this should be done urgently, while tracts of Crown land are still available to be reserved for the use of citizens and for the protection of Victorian flora and fauna.

Much has been said and written on this subject, and many countries can be cited as examples to illustrate what can happen if a Government does not take early action to provide adequate national parks for the people. Since early settlement in 1835, the population of· Victoria has growh

326 National Parks [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

to approximately 3,000,000 people and, according to the predictions of authorities who have studied population growths, in the next 32 years this population will more than double. When the ratio of national parks to population growth is considered, the urgency of reserving further areas as national parks can be seen, not only for the recreational requirements of the people but also to ensure the continuation of an adequate balance of flora and fauna with nature.

Clause 5 amends section 8 of the principal Act and inserts a new subsection (5) relating to the redefinition of the boundaries of Wilson's Promontory National Park and the Lakes National Park. This amendment is necessary to overcome the difficulties experienced by committees of management in policing land between the low and the high-water marks.

The descriptions of the boundaries of the Mallacoota Inlet and Wingan Inlet national parks, which were established under the old Lands Act in 1909, by proclamation in the Government Gazette, refer to highwater mark. The description of the boundary of the Mallacoota Inlet National Park contains the following unusual wording:-

. . . being the unappropriated Crown Lands situated within a distance of 60 chains from high-water mark.

I understand that some appropriated Crown land occupies approximately 3 chains between the water's edge and the boundary of the park. Those who are responsible for managing the Mallacoota Inlet National Park have experienced great difficulty in policing the activities of certain people who enter the area.

In this Bill, the Government should have taken the opportunity to resolve not only the problems relating to the Lakes National Park and the Wilson's Promontory National Park, but also the problems affecting the other two national parks to which I have referred. The Victorian National Parks Associa tion-I am sure the Minister will agree that this is a responsible

Mr. Wilton.

body which has taken a keen interest in the development and management of our national parksand the committee of management of the parks experience difficulty in conn ex ion with the appropriated Crown lands. Although the ranger does his best, his powers are limited in relation to the area of land between the water's edge and the boundary of the park. Whilst he may achieve his purpose on most occasions, there are times when his bluff is called and he cannot enforce the regulations which he is charged to administer. I ask the Minister to examine this matter and to take the necessary steps to introduce appropriate legislation to remove this anomaly.

The Opposition supports the establishment of national parks and agrees with the Government's policy of expanding the Mount Eccles National Park, resolving the problems of the Wilson's Promontory National Park and tidying up the situation at Kinglake National Park, where apparently an error occured and a small piece of land was omitted from the schedules to the principal Act. However, the Government deserves some criticism for the delay that occurs between reserving certain lands by Order in Council and the introduction of legislation to Parliament to establish a national park.

Tremendous interest has been exhibited in the establishment of a national park in the Little Desert in northern Victoria. After a long and detailed examination, the Wimmera Regional Committee, supported by a large section of the community, has suggested the establishement of a national park of approximately 18,000 acres in the area. Crown lands abut an established wildlife sanctuary. The Government deserves criticism for its delay in bringing before Parliament the necessary legislation to establish this national park.

When one reads the histories of establishing national parks in other parts of Australia and of the world, one finds that in every instance noted

National Parks [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 327

scientists have pleaded the cause of establishing national parks whilst the Government concerned still controls large areas of Crown land. In countries like the United States of America, because of the pressures imposed by population growth, the authorities are now being forced to use public funds to purchase privatelyowned lands for the establishment of new parks or to extend existing parks.

This State can learn from the experience of other countries and so avoid the pitfalls into which they have fallen. The Little Desert area has some unique features, and botanists, geologists and conservationists in general have submitted sufficient evidence, in my opinion, to substantiate a case for the establishment of a national park of at least 18,000 acres. I regret that in presenting this measure, the Government has not included the Little Desert area because it is essential that something should be done now. If action is delayed too long, the land will be alienated for development by pastoral interests. Once this occurs, the attractions, from a national park point of view, of our native wildlife and flora will be lost. These cannot be reproduced once they have been destroyed.

Several other areas have also been examined by conservationists and detailed cases have been prepar~d and presented to the Government. I believe a group of conservationists in western Victoria have submitted a case for the establishment of a national park in the Lower Glenelg area. This request should also be given serious consideration by the Government because the area contains many features which are not found in other parts of the State.

One of the prime reasons for establishing national parks is to preserve for posterity unique and unusual features of geological structure or of fauna and flora.

In 32 years' time-by the year 2000 -it is expected that the population of Victoria will have increased to

8,000,000 people or more. Although it has taken about 130 years for the population to reach 3,000,000, in the comparatively short period to the year 2000 it is expected to increase by 5,000,000. It is our responsibility to take action now to preserve areas as national parks. If we are not remembered for anything else, at least let us make it possible for future generations to remember us for what was done in this period to establish national parks.

The term" national park" is probably a misnomer because, so far as I am aware, the Federal Government does not make any contribution towards the costs involved in establishing parks in Victoria. In" the United States of America, the Federal authorities willingly shoulder a considerable share of the financial burden involved in the establishment and improvement of that country's great national parks. In one of his addresses to the nation, President Johnson devoted a considerable portion of his speech to the question of national parks. He informed the people in no uncertain manner that as President, he considered that th~ Federal authorities were and should be prepared to accept a substantial part of the financial burden involved.

The State of Victoria should take the lead by the Minister of State Development initiating a conference with his counterparts in other States and the Federal authorities to exa.mine the. possibility of some actIOn on natIOnal parks being taken on a Federal level. I remind honorable members that the Australian Agri~ultur~l C~uncil holds regular meetmgs m WhICh the various State Ministers of Agriculture and the Federal Minister for Primary Industry ~onfer on matters affecting primary mdustry. As a result of these meetings, complementary legislation is often passed in all States to the b~nefi~ of priJ?ary industry. A similar SItuatIOn eXIsts in regard to the enactment of uniform laws throughout the Commonwealth· the Standing Committee of Attor~eys-General also holds regular meetings.


An attempt should be made to establish national parks on a Commonwealth-wide basis with a view to conserving this country's flora and fauna. As I said, Victoria should take the initiative in this field and not leave it to someone else to take action. I should not begrudge the Government any credit that resulted from its efforts in this direction.

Members of the Opposition support this measure because, as a party, we are firmly convinced that it is an important measure and that the establishment of national parks is important to the development of the State. By setting areas aside in this way, we are making provision for future generations of people who will reside in the great metropolises that will be created, and particularly in the C'ity of Melbourne. I can only guess what the area of Melbourne will be when its population reaches 5,000,000. That great mass of people will need to seek relaxation somewhere in peace and quiet, away from the hubbub of city life.

A further point is that by the time the population of Victoria reaches 8,000,000 the people will have more leisure than they enjoy today as a result of the great advances that will be made in technology, changes in industry and methods of production, and the effects of automation. This additional leisure must be used in such a way that people will obtain some benefit from it. I cannot think of any better means of making this

;possible than to have large areas of national parkland, with reasonable facilities established, so that the people can relax and enjoy what this State and Australia have to offer in the way of natural surroundings and natural bush life. Many people who travel overseas boast about the Australian scenery and wildlife, about which much is written, and make claims in regard to their beauty and ':lniqueness. Therefore, it is up to us ~o do something about the preservation of our countryside. The establishment of national parks is the best

Mr. Wilton.

means of ensuring that the generations to follow will be able to enjoy their attractions.

In the latest issue of Conservation, the Minister of State Development will notice an interesting editorial concerning the number of visitors to the popular national parks which have already been established. In the past few years, a spectacular increase has occurred in the number of people who have been able to travel to areas like Wilson's Promotory and the Lakes National Park, and even to the small Lowan Wildlife Sanctuary at Kiata. When I visited" that area recently the ranger expressed his apprehension that the area will become too popular and tha t this small area of 500-odd acres will be visited by too many people. The Government must take action now to obviate any difficulties arising.

The Government deserves some criticism because, following the proclamation of a certain area of land, a delay occurs before the necessary legislation is passed to establish a national park. I realize that by Order in Council the Government has reserved some 2,800 acres of Crown land south of the Lowan sanctuary in the Little Desert area. That area is hopelessly inadequate fo~ the preservation of fauna and flora. An area of at least 18,000 acres should be reserved, as suggested by the Wimmera Regional Committee, which did not act hastily but made a close study of the question. Detailed submissions were placed before the committee by a host of people, many of whom were admirably fitted to express an opinion on this matter. At a conference held in 1964, the then Minister of Lands, who is now the Minister for Fuel and Power, expressed keen interest in the proposals put forward.

I urge the Government to take the necessary steps to ensure that an area of at least 18,000 acres is reserved. The Little Desert area is an extensive tract of Crown land; although 18,000 acres may sound a


lot to some honorable members, it is only a very small section of its total area. If this reservation were made, I am sure the administrators of the State would earn the gratitude of future generations.

Like many other authorities, the National Parks Authority is starved of the finance necessary to enable it to do the job it wishes to do and is capable of doing. It is disconcerting to read in the reports of the Authority that insufficient park rangers have been appointed and that in many cases one ranger is shared with two or three other parks. This is unfair. I shall use as an analogy the recent drought relief work carried out in this State. Much worth-while work was undertaken, but there was also a lot of waste. Some drought relief work that I saw simply entailed the cutting down of trees and burning them at the side of the road.

At the Lowan sanctuary at Kiata an area of land has been reserved for use as a wildlife sanctuary, and there is need for a great deal of work to be carried out on it ; for example, adequate toilet facilities and water supplies should be provided. If some of the drought relief work had been directed to this area it would have been of lasting benefit to the State. I believe that the Government, in its eagerness to commence drought relief work, did not give sufficient thought to the type of work that needed to be done. The Government simply said to the municipalities, in effect, "Tell us what you want done and, so long as it is work with a high labour content, we shall approve it ". By adopting that tragic procedure, the Government missed the opportunity to do work of a lasting and beneficial nature in our national parks. Unless the Government makes more finance available to the National Parks Authority· it will not be in a position to discharge its repsonsibilities to the citizens of the State. The Authority is being placed in an unfair position, and the Opposition sincerely hopes that in the Budget now before Parliament sufficient provision will be made

to enable it to develop further the parks that have already been established.

In its usual way, the Government has adopted slipshod methods and is doing only half the job that is required. As I have said, the national parks at Mallacoota Inlet and Wingan Inlet have problems with regard to boundaries. While the Government is prepared to do something in connexion with this question at Wilson's Promontory and at the Lakes National Park, it ignores Mallacoota Inlet and Wingan Inlet. I assume that the Minister is sufficiently interested in the national parks to be aware of the problems confronting their committees of management, but he does not appear to be interested in doing anything about them. The Opposition trusts that the Government will take some action to clear up the anomalies that exist in relation to existing national parks and to proceed with the establishment of additional parks. The longer it is delayed, the more serious will the situation become. The Labor Party supports the Bill.

Mr. MITCHELL (Benamhra).-The Country Party supports this Bill, which is moderate and does not go off into airy-fairy flights, as does the honorable member for Broadmeadows, who is in a miasma of his own mental self-deception. The measure deals with mechanical adjustments of Kinglake National Park and Mount Eccles National Park and other matters associated with the functioning of national parks.

The time is not yet ripe for the State to set aside vast areas of parklands for the benefit of the wonderful population to which the honorable member for Broadmeadows referred. The honorable member did his best but obviously had very little knowledge of the subject and had his feet well off the ground; like Mahomet's coffin, he was between heaven and earth. Victoria already has more national parks than can be adequately maintained and developed.


The Country Party has never opposed the establishment of national parks, but it has said emphatically that it will not support the establishment of more until the problems confronting existing parks have been overcome. Members of the Country Party are by no means certain that this State is capable of looking after the national parks it has now. The honorable member for Broadmeadows has had t'O study the little 'red book of Chairman Mao more than naNonal parks and he does not ~ealize that, when an area is locked up, so to speak, such things as noxious w,eeds, verm'in and s'O on, must be dealt with. With lall due respect to' Dr. Smi'th, he is not the man for the position he holds. Everywhere throughout the State one hears the demand " Sack Smith ". The time -is notliipe ~or vast masses of national parks ,throughout Victoria. In speaking 'Of the ,oanal at Mount Eccles National Pa,rk, the Minister of State Develop'ment s'aid-

I understand that this canal is quite a spectacular feature.

Used as I ,am to the nonsense of Gov,ernment Suppoflters, particularly of Cabinet Ministers, ,in their ,approlach to ,any:thing necessary ,for the benefit of the State, I 'am astounded at that statement. How ,can a respectabl'e Cabinet Minister have the nerve 'and audaoity to tell this House that he merely understands that som'ething is so? If the honorable gentleman were worth his salt, .or if the Government w·as worth -anything, he would know definitely. There -would be none of this vagueaiory-fairy Broadmeadows stuff. 'JIhis is not what this House wants. During the Committee stage, the M,inister should s-tate not what he understands, but what he knows. Tn any case, 'aH too frequently, Ministers of the present Government know nothing.

'I'll speaking 'Of the extension of the boundaries of the Lakes National Park, the Mlinister said-

This step is considered necessary for the control of visitors.

Mr. Mitchell.

What does that mean? In the Kosciusko National Park, very strict control of v.is-itors has been exercised for the profit of, pal'iticularly, Mr. Ansett. M'r. Ansett has been given a lO-year franchise to t'ran-sport people into. Perisher. People ,cannot :t-ake their 'cars there. Mr. Ansett is 'cooperative ·and 'ready, with a cheerful smile, to take people over the snow -at a price, of course! Dear old Uncle Reg! We do not want this type of control in the Victorian national parks.

I know that the Minister is sincere about these matters, and at a later stage he can tell us exactly what he means by "control of visitors." While I was at Thredbo in the Kosciusko National Park a short time ago, four bad breaches of the peace occurred. One happened when several young people, including four Victorians, were beaten up by a gang of fascist louts. We do not want that type 'Of ,control of visitors. The Minister did not mention contrOoI of the people workling in national parks. It was people who work at Thredbo who beat up those youths.

The honorable gentleman also said that the com-mittee of 'management of .the Lakes National Park -was-

experiencing difficulties arising from the existing boundaries definition. Again, this is not good enough. I am sure that during the Committee stage the Minister win tell us what are the difficulties in the airea. This is important, because they may O'ocur elsewhere. The Minister -could be mo.re explicit.

The Country Party offe,rs no objection to the provisions relating t'O construc:tional works. Its members realize the diffi'culty of obtaining cont~actors in outlying places and agree that there are -many jobs on lodges, toilet blocks, staff residences, machinery sheds, and so on which could be dealt with on the spot ,if the ·management com·mi;ttees were allowed to deal with them.

The honorablem-ember fOor Broadmeadows backed up a point he made by referring to what happens


in ,the United States of America. There, the Federal Government helps the States in relation to national parks. I would be very -cautious .about accepting any help like that in V1ctoria. We have seen aH to 'much 'Of the greed for power of the Federal Government and its deslke to weaken more and more the power and authority o.f the States. I repeat what I have said previously in debate in this House, that the Snowy Mountains schem'e was 'a deliberate, clever, and s'Uooessful attempt by the Federal Government to. e~tend the Austral,ian Capital Ter-ritory. If the const'l'uctive suggestion of the honorable member for Broadmeadows were brought into substance, it would be found that Vlictoria bo're another Federal shackle. We expect some explanation .from the Minister at the Com'mittee stage, but the Co.untry Party 'supports the BiU.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South).-I ask the Minister to inform the House whether g-ra~iers who put theircatUe onto Yanakie on Wilson's Promontory will be permitted to continue to do so, or whether the National Parks Authority is to take control of the Yanakie Run which adJoins the park. CounoiUor T. E. Thorson of South Gippsland has informed me that the graziers are afraid that -they will not be perm'itted to 'continue to use the winter grazdng l'ights which they have had ,for about 60 years.

The motion was ,agreed to. The Bill was read a second tlime

and committed. Olause 1 was 'ag,reed to. Clause 2 (E~tension t'O Mount

Eocles National Park).

Mr. MANSON {Minister of State Development).-I thank honorable m,embers who have contributed to the debate on this BiB. Although they did not agree with all its details, they have been good enough to indicate that they will support it in its present form. The honorable member for Broadmeadows spoke of the boundardes at Wdng.an and Mallacoota inlets at low-water

ma'rk. This has been the subject of negotiations between the Nationa1 P'arks Authority and Ithe Lands Depal"t'ment ov.er a long period. The Government is we'll -aware of the problem. At present, we are aw,aiting finaHzation of finvestigations by the Lands Depart'ment, so that 'we 'may have the benefit of its 'advice.

The honorable 'member .for Broadmeadows suggest-ed that I should sponsor a conference 'Of the State and Federal Ministers ,concerned so that the States could ask for more 'money, but I would not do that .for the -reasons given by the honor-able m-ember for Benambra. The Commonwealth Government might provide a small amount of money but it would attach so many conditions that the State Government would not have control of its national parks.

Mr. HOLDING.-That is a terrible thing to say about your Federal colleagues.

Mr. MANSON.-I am prepared to say it. The honorable member for Benambra raised a rather more technical matter regarding the boundaries of the Lakes National Park and their relation to the low-water mark. I shall explain this point further. Clause 5 provides for extension of the boundaries of the Lakes National Park to the low-water mark, and also transfers to the principal Act a similar definition for Wilson's Promontory formerly contained in the National Parks (Amendment) Act 1965. In the case of both these parks the boundaries are defined by a technical survey description. -Port Campbell National Park, where the boundary is also at the low-water mark, is not included in this clause because the boundaries of that park are not de,fined by survey description, but are defined by plan. The boundary plan already contains a reference to the low-water mark. So there was no need to put that reference in this Bill. I hope that explains the pOint raised by the honorable member for Benambra.

332 County Court [ASSEMBLY.] (Jurisdiction) Bill.

Mr. B. J. EVANs.-What is the position concerning the inland boundaries of the Mallacoota National Park?

Mr. MANSON.-That is under investigation by the Lands Department. The Department can not easily and quickly make surveys of all the areas it is asked to investigate and make decisions on. It is a question of man power and the technicality of making surveys so that a wise decision can be made.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-A plan was prepared two or three years ago for the rationalization of boundaries.

Mr. MANSON.-The honorable member for Gippsland South referred to problems relating to the Yanakie Run. These problems are being investigated by the Lands Department and the National Parks Authority, and it is hoped that a final decision will be taken within a few weeks. When that decision is made the Government will be in a position to give consideration to the Yanakie Run and its relation to the Wilson's Promontory National Park. Until those investigations are finalized I shall not be in a position to give the honorable member a categorical assurance regarding the rights of graziers. However, I shall keep the matter in mind and bring it to the attention of the Minister of Lands.

The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses and the schedules.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 18) on the motion of Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-The main purposes of this Bill are to abolish Courts of General Sessions of the peace and to vest the jurisdiction thereof in the County

Court, and members of the Opposition propose to support it. In Victoria persons charged with criminal offences are tried in either the Supreme Court or a Court of General Sessions. Generally speaking, the more serious crimes are dealt with by the Supreme Court and crimes of a lesser nature by Courts of General Sessions. Recently this House passed a Bill to abolish bailiwicks, and it has therefore become necessary to consider the measure now before the' House, because the existence of Courts of General Sessions depends' on bailiwicks. In Part III. of the Justices Act it is stated that there shall be a Court of General Sessions for each bailiwick.

As the Attorney-General pointed out during his second-reading speech; it is possible for justices of the peace to sit on Courts of General Sessions, but for as long as I can remember the practice has been to appoint County Court Judges as chairmen of General Sessions. The result has been that a Court of General Sessions consists of a Judge of the County Court. In substance, the effect of this Bill is to make de jure what for many years was de facto so far as courts of trial were concerned.

The principal provision of the Bill is contained in clause 2, which adds to the statement of the jurisdiction of the County Court in section 4 of the County Court Act a reference to the criminal jurisdiction proposed to be conferred by this legislation. Clause 2 provides-

In sub-section (1) of section 4 of the Principal Act after the word "Victoria" 'there shall be inserted the words "for the trial of indictable offences triable in the County Court under this Act, for the determination of appeals lying to the County Court under this Act or any other Act and".

Under the Justices Act, appeals from Courts of Petty Sessions are dealt with by Courts of General Sessions, and this Bill provides that the criminal . jurisdiction of the Courts of General Sessions will pass to the County Court. I. do not know if the term "County Court" is an apt

County Court [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] (Jurisdiction) Bill. 333

name because it is in no way related to the various counties of the State. The Attorney-General stated that he had in mind the need to select a new name for these courts which, in the past, have functioned extremely well.

In his usual efficient manner, the Attorney-General has made certain that the persons whom he has selected for the office of Judge have been the best men available, and it is well known that they discharge their duties in a highly efficient manner. Appeals from Courts of Petty Sessions will in future come under the jurisdiction of the County Court. There has been a slight extension, if I may call it that, of the nlatters that can be dealt with by Courts of General Sessions. That is dealt with in section 191 of the Justices Act, which approaches the matter in a negative way. It does not state what matters can be dealt with by a Court of Petty Sessions; it provides in effect, that a Court of General Sessions of the peace may inquire into and determine all indictable offences, other than nine specified offences, including treason and attempts to murder. The Attorney-General has seen fit by clause 7 of this Bill, which inserts a new section 36A in the principal Act, to enlarge the jurisdiction of the court.

That is the substance of the Bill, as I understand it. I am pleased to note that the senior Judge of the County Court is Judge Norman Mitchell, who was appointed by the late William Slater when he was Attorney-General in a former Labor Administration. Because of the onerous duties involved in the supervision of the other Judges, of whom there are 23, and arranging their various duties, not only in Melbourne but throughout the State of Victoria, it has been decided to increase the remuneration of the senior Judge.

Mr. G. O. REID.-They are onerous duties.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Yes, and we agree to the increase from $600 to $1,500 in the allowance which is

Session 1968.-13

payable in addition to his salary. The Opposition supports the Bill and trusts that it has a speedy passage.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep-parton) .-The Country Party supports this measure. For many years there has been an arUfiCiial distincti'On between Courts of General Sessions and the County Court so far as their fundamental functions and personnel are concerned. The distinotion has had its drawbacks and certain annoyances, particularly in country centres, when two lists of jurors were called, .one for General Sessions and one for the County Court. It was the normal practice for the General Sessi'Ons hearing to be held first and, if the General Sessions list lapsed in the middle of the day, the court then adjourned until the following day to enable the other jurors to be called. This involved a waste of money and the time of the jurors.

I also ·commend the substantial increase from $600 to $1,500 in the amount of 'the allowance to' be paid to the chairman of the County Court. One must have regard for the duties and responsibilities which go with the appointment. All too often, people whO' hold high public office are not recouped for the expenses whioh that office entails.

The m'otiO'n was agreed t'O.

The Bill was read 'a second time and commliHed, pro forma.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) presented a message from His Excellency the LieutenantGovernor recommending that an appr.opriation be made from the Consolidated Revenue for the purposes of this Bill.

A resolution in a'cC'ordance with the recom:mendation was pa'ssed in Commdttee and adopted by the House.

The House went into Committee for the consideration .of this Bill.

The dauses were agreed to, and the Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through its rem'aining -stages.

334 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: WEST-

GARTH STATE SCHOOL: CONDITION OF SCHOOL BUILDINGS-TRAFFIC COMMISSION: SCHOOL CROSSING IN MILLEARA-ROAD, EAST KEILORPRISONS DIVISION: TRANSFER OF PRISON OFFICER BENNETTS-HousING COMMISSION: ILLEGAL PARKING IN ASCOT ESTATE.

Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney'General) .-1 m'Ove-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at half-past Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney

General) .-1 move-That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote).-I direct attention to the dangerous state of disrepair .of the Westgar.th State School in Clarke-street, Northoote. I have already written to the Mlinister of Education concerning this matter, and now I raise the matter on the adjournment of the House in the hope that some corrective action will be taken. At the invitation .of the president of the school oom'mittee I visited this school and was disturb~d at the condiNon of the buildings, particularly of the class-rooms. The exterior of the school :is in a state of disrepair ; the spouting and the downpipes are corroded and the pa'inting has worn to the bare wood. The ceilings of the class-rooms, particularly of room No. 20, are in a dangerous state and pieces of material are f.alling.

'f,he Education Department should take immediate action Ito remedy this situation; if it does not do so, the Department should issue safety helmets to the children occupying the class-rooms. The school oommiutee has directed attention to this m·atter, and the head master has expressed to the Department his fears of injury occurring to the children. Immediate action should be taken to effect temporary .repairs to the building or, alternatIvely, the children and teachers should not be permitted to use the class-rooms.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park).-I direct the attention of the Chief Secretary to the urgent necessity to approve the installation of pedestrian operated traffic signals at the school crossing in Milleara-road, north of Clarksroad, East Keilor, near the Keilor Heights State School. During the past twelve months the attention of the Traffic Comm'ission has been directed to this matter by myself and also by a deputation from the KeHor City Council, but permission to install these lights has not been granted.

The city engineer addressed the following letter, dated 27th August, 1968, to me-

At its meeting on the 20th August, 1968 council considered my report on the schooi crossing in Milleara-road north of Clarks~oQad, East Keilor. A copy of this report IS enclosed.

After due consideration, council decided that you be supplied with all the relevant information regarding council's application to install pedestrian operated traffic signals at this location. It is council's wish that you raise the matter in the House at the spring session.

I have enclosed all the relevant details regarding this crossing and it is also of interest that during the last twelve months two youths have been killed while crossing Milleara-road between Calder Highway and Clarks-road.

Council feels most strongly in this matter and would appreciate any assistance you may be able to render which would enable council to proceed with the installation of the very necessary lights at this location. The Keilor Oity Council believes that traffic lights are so essential at this crossing !that it is prepared to allocate the necessary funds for them and to gO' ahead with their ,installation. Unfortunately, the council has not received the green light frO'm the Traffic Commission.

On the 9th September, 1968, the president of the Keilor Heights Primary School Committee wrote to me setting out the following disturbing facts:-

Dear Sir, At our last committee meeting I was

request~d to write to you seeking your help WIth regard to the school crossing in Milleara-road.

We hB;ve had several complaints of cars damagmg the flags and also proceeding through the crossing while children are walking across.

Adjournment. [25 SEPTEMBER, 1968.] Adjournment. 335

Have you heard any more from the Traffic Commission or the Keilor council regarding our request for traffic lights to be installed?

Or can you offer us any other help or suggestions? We are deeply concerned about this crossing and any help you could give us would be appreciated very much.

Yours faithfully, RONALD H. LEGGETT.

The situation is grave, but I have not been able to obtain any satislfaction from the Traffic Commission. The only avenue left to me is to now raise this matter in the hope that the Chief Secretary will ensure that it is speedily attended to.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-I regret that the Chief Secretary is not present in the House because I wish again to raise the matter of the transfer of Prison Officer Bennetts from Pentridge Gaol to French Island. I asked the honorable gentleman to supply me with a copy of the transcript of e~idence of the recent case of IMr. Bennetts, but he has not acceded to my request. Therefore, I felt that it was time that I made my own investigation, and I have ascertained that !this case has such an obnmdous odour that it is starting to seep through the whole Public Service.

A letter, dated 30th August, from the general secretary of the Victorian Public Service Association to the president of the Pentridge Prison Group, indicates that a grave miscarriage of justice has taken place. The letter states, inter alia-

The Director-General refused to vary the transfer decision but he did indicate that the location of the transfer could be changed to W·on Wron, Morwell river or Coriemungle, these locations :along with French Island being considered suitable because officers are not required to carry or use firearms.

In this connexion the Director-General stated that Mr. Bennetts was not being transferred for disciplinary reasons but rather on the basis of reports by his senior officers at Pentridge and his own observations and conclusions that Mr. Bennetts was not suitable for the performance of duties which might involve the use of fitearms.

Today I asked the Chief Se'cretary the following question on notice:-

Whether Mr. R. C. Bennetts carries firearms whilst working as a warder at French Island? I received the evasive reply that-

Officers at McLeod Prison Farm do not normally carry firearms but when required to work the night duty roster they are issued with sidearms.

If there is such a thing as Britlish justice, let it prevail. A pub}ii·c inquiry should be instituted to ascertain the true facts of this matter. I should like to know on how many occasions Mr. Bennetts has been .issued with firearms since his transfer.

I have two letters, one addressed to me by the wife and the other by the daughter of this prison officer. I again make an urgent appeal to the Chief Secretary, and I hope my friends on this, the Opposition, side of the House will support me. The Chief Secretary should remember that he is the Ministerial head of his Department, and not a puppet of the Director-General of Social Welfare.

Because of subjugation, victimization and intimidation, a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction exists within the penal institution at Coburg. Unless something is done to arrest the present involvement, I should not like to predict what will happen in the future. I request the Chief Secretary to treat this matter as one of extreme urgency and to call for a public inquiry into the case of Mr. Bennetts versus the Director-General, Mr. Whatmore, who throughout the Public Service is considered to be a veritable dictator.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds).'I direct the attention of the Minister of Housing to the problems 'Of residents in the A'scot Housing Commission estlate because of the illegal parking of motor vehicles by patrons of events held at the Royal Agricultural Soc:iety's Showgrounds. At the present time, with the Royal 'Melbourne Show in progress, the access of residents to the parkling bays, for which they pay a rent of 50 cents per week to the Commission, is restricted. At

:336 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY. ] Adjournment.

this time of the year, it is impossible to find a place to park a motor vehicle in the area, and this morning some residents pointed out to me the difficulties that they were experiencing. I was unable to park my motor car except illegally in one of the private bays. Some cars have been parking illegally in the estate for the past four days. Numerous protests have been made by the City of Essendon and the three ward councillors, and residents have taken the matter up with the Housing Commission. I understand that they have sought a deputation and have presented a petition.

It is a matter of no particular :authority being responsible. The only ;solution to the problem would be to introduce owner onus and for the Housing Commission to police parkjng in the estate. This would alleviate the position for residents. I have been told that on one notable occa:sion, in an attempt to rectify the position, some residents tried to prevent three men in a motor car from 'illegally parking in a parking bay. One -of the 'men took a gun from the car ;and pointed it at a woman, who was told to get out of the way so that they could park their car and arrive 'at the trots in time. The police were 'notified of this incident, but they 'were unable to track down the cul'prits. I ask the Minister for an :assurance that consideration will be ,given to the matter. The Housing 'Commission should be empowered to 'police parking in private bays by the :introduction of owner onus.

Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney(General) .-1 shall refer the matter raised by the Deputy Leader of the IOpposition concerning the Westgarth :State School to the attention of the :appropriate Minister for investigation.

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housjng) .-1 assure the honorable mem~ber for Moonee Ponds that the prob'lem to which he has referred is well 'known and well understood by the Rousing Commission. Recently I :have had discussions on the matter

and hope in the near future to be in the position to remedy the situation.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 shall discuss with the Traffic Commission the matter raised by the honorable member for Deer Park, and furnish him with an early reply.

I am concerned about the allegation made by the honorable member for Coburg because I have never been accused of being anybody's puppet-I think I have a reputation for being exactly the opposite. I doubt whether it helps to use extravagant language and to hurl all sorts of allegations at one. Last week, in replying to a question asked by the honorable member, I informed him that if he had any additional information to submit the case would be reviewed.

Mr. MUTToN.-When I receive the message, you will have plenty of evidence.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-I made that statement and, from memory, it appears in Hansard. I stress that the Director-General of Social Welfare is responsible for the security of the prisons and if any breakdown in that security occurs he is vilified throughout Victoria. When the Social Welfare Act was passed by Parliament. the responsibility for allocating personnel was placed in the hands of the Director-General-Parliament did that, not I nor the Government of the day.

Most Departments give public servants a right of appeal against any transfer to the head of the Department. However, the Social Welfare Act does not provide for an appeal. There is probably a very good reason for this because the responsibility for security rests with the DirectorGeneral. He has made his decision in this matter. I have indicated to the honorable member that if he has any additional information to place before me or the Director-General, the matter will be reconsidered.

The motion was agreed to. The House ,adjourned at 9.29 p.m.,

until Tuesday, October 1.

Consolidated Revenue [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Bill. 337

i£rgt.siatiur <trouttril. Tuesday, October 1, 1968.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.57 p.m., and read the prayer.

CONSOLIDATED REVENUE BILL. This Bill was received from the

Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture), was read a first time.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-1 move

That the Bill be printed and, by leave, the second reading be made an Order of the Day for later this day.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 understand that this Bill relates to Supply and that, if leave is not granted to enable the second reading of the measure to proceed today, there will be no Supply for the essential services of the State, the payments of public servants, and so on. 1 must voice my protest at being asked to grant leave so that Supply can be passed by this House tonight. Those responsible for the government of the State ought to have given Council members a proper opportunity to debate Supply. That must be done if we are to form a second legislative Chamber whose processes and responsibilities have any real meaning.

If 1 refuse leave tonight, the Premier, through his public relations people, will say, "Mr. Galbally is denying the people who work for this State their wages or proper remuneration. That is unthinkable." I have weighed these considerations, and 1 do not propose to refuse leave. While 1 am here, in the short or the long run, 1 must insist on this House acting as a proper legislature and not just as a rubber stamp for the Executive. At present, that is what this House is.

The current position has not arisen as a result of a sudden emergency. Parliament has been in recess for months. Supply is essential for the

Session 1968.-14

functioning of government. Surely it should have been introduced into another place and debated there so that sufficient time would have been available for it to be debated properly in this House. 1 understand that the debate in another place was so short that it was almost not a debate at all. It was not as if the Government was embarrassed by the debate spilling over for a week or so. After the shortest debate on record in another Chamber, this House is being told that if it does not pass Supply tonight it will be responsible for Victorian public servants not getting their wages on Thursday. 1 protest most bitterly at the Government's action.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Mr. Galbally, did you say that you proposed not to grant leave?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-No. I said that I proposed not to refuse leave. I am not suggesting that the Minister in charge of the House is to blame for the position that has arisen, except in so far as he is a member of the Government, because I understand there is a constitutional tradition that what one member of the Government does all members accept responsibility for. 1 understand that was the tradition for hundreds of years, but in the past thirteen years a different kind of strong-armed Government has been in office and all constitutional safeguards have been swept aside.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) (By leave) . -I regret that this Bill was not introduced into the Council last week so that 1 could have made my secondreading speech then. I understand that the measure was before the other House on Wednesday of last week, and I suppose if the Council had sat last Wednesday the Bill would have been introduced on that day and I would have been permitted to make my second-reading speech.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-You adjourned the House.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I am not making excuses. I regret what has happened, but it is nothing new.

338 Education [COUNCIL.] Department.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It always happens.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-It happened when the Labor Party was in office.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I acknowledge that, but two wrongs do not make a right.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That is a point for Mr. Galbally. I do not want to talk myself into trouble.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-I think we have let you down very lightly.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.I agree that whenever it is possible, after a Minister has made his secondreading speech, debates should be adjourned at least until the next day of meeting. In my experience as a member of this House I have never known any member of the Labor Party, the Country Party or my own party to object to an urgent matter being dealt with even though no notice has been given.


NATIONAL PARKS (AMENDMENT) BILL

This Bill was received for the Assembly and, on the motion of the Han. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL

This Bill was received for the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

WHOLESALE FRUIT AND VEGETABLE MARKET.

OPENING OF NEW PREMISES: ACCESS ROADS.

The Hon D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) When is it anticipated the new wholesale fruit and vegetable market will commence operations?

(b) What plans has the Government approved to create and improve access roads to New Footscray-road area?

(c) When will these plans be implemented?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are-

(a) August, 1969. (b) The metropolitan planning scheme

contains main road reservation for-(i) widening of New Footscray-road; (ii) widening of Dynon-road; (iii) a new link road between New

Footscray and Dynon roads in the vicinity of Moonee Ponds creek.

( c) Discussions are taking place between the Melbourne City Council, Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works and Country Roads Board, but no dates have yet been fixed for implementing these plans.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SCHOOLS IN DOUTTA GALLA

PROVINCE. The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH

(Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Education-

Has he made any investigation into the matter of overcrowding at the Gowrie Park, Glenroy West, Moonee Ponds, Thomastown East, Dallas, Dallas North, Coolaroo South, Strathmore North, Oak Park, Fawkner North, Broadmeadows, Lalor, Tullamarine, North Park, and Moomba Park State primary schools following his undertaking to do so, recorded in Hansard dated 23rd April, 1968, at page 4299; if so, what is the result?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answer is-

Yes. The erection of six class-rooms at Coolaroo South is included in a recently let bulk contract for the building of new schools and additions at existing schools. A portable class-room is now in use at Gowrie Park. Two portable class-rooms have been allocated to Lalor State School. One portable class-room has been allocated to Tullamarine. It is expected that these portables will be on site very shortly. I have called for a further report on the schools mentioned by the honorable member and he will be further advised.

THOMASTOWN STATE SCHOOL: ENROLMENTS: ACCOMMODATION.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) How many children are at present enrolled at the Thomastown State School?

(b) How many class-rooms at present accommodate them and how many childrer. are in each room?

Education [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department. 339

(c) What is the anticipated total enrolment for 1969?

(d) What plans are in hand for extending the present accommodation to cope with the increasing enrolments?

(e) Will he kindly agree to a personal visit to this school to see the conditions that now exist?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are-

(a) The present enrolment at Thomastown State School is 562.

(b) There are fourteen rooms, thirteen permanent and one portable. The numbers of children in each room are :-40, 43, 52, 43, 50, 37, 37, 36, 38, 39, 38, 42, 40, 27.

(c) Anticipated enrolment in 1969 is 600-620.

(d) It is proposed to provide temporary accommodation to cope with the increasing enrolments.

(e) Yes.

SUBSIDIES FOR LIBRARIES, BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Education-

How many schools received subsidies for libraries in the last financial year and where is each school located?


Sufficient funds were made available for all Victorian State schools to receive the

(a)

-

Equipment Subsidies.

Primary schools · . · . .. Technical schools · . · . . . High schools .. · . · . ..

Library Subsidies.

Primary schools .. · . .. Technical schools " .. . . High schools .. " · . ..

Buildings and Grounds Subsidies.

Primary schools " · . .. Technical schools " .. .. High schools .. " .. ..

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

. .

library subsidy applicable to the school concerned, and all applications received were granted.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) What are the subsidy funds made available to primary schools, technical schools, and high schools, respectively, for each of the past four financial years, and to date in the present financial year?

(b) Does he consider that these funds are sufficient to meet the growing needs of school committees and advisory councils; if not, what advice can be given to these parent bodies which have found their requests rejected as set out in Hansard, pages 73-76, in answer to question No. 13 asked in this House on the 17th September last?

(c) What schools have been approved for subsidy allocations in the present financial year stating in each case the amount of subsidy involved?

(d) When is it expected that applications for library subsidies will be approved?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers contain a statistical table, and I seek leave of the House for their incorporation in Hansard without being read.


1964-65.

I

1965-66. 1966-67. 1967-68.

$ $ $ $

81,834 97,776 106,054 90,606 5,510 5,461 4,461 4,860

18,993 22,950 18,624 16,088

110,448 129,327 124,039 157,831 20,735 15,062 16,121 33,539 39,653 35,514 36,003 86,641

231,729 199,990 202,276 204,643 34,460 20,801 27,988 21,338 81,611 73,499 66,932 70,695

340 Education [COUNCIL.j Department.

Re 1968-69: The incidence of subsidy expenditure is

not available at this stage. However, it can be stated that funds are available to provide every school with an equipment and library subsidy based on existing scale.

(b) Additional finance could certainly be put to good use. The Education Department is exploring the possibility of allocating subsidy funds in the future on a basis other than the present one.

(c) The number of schools involved is so large as to preclude an answer being given, but if the honorable member requires information on any particular school or schools, this can be provided.

(d) Schools are in course of being informed that applications for approval of library subsidies are no longer necessary, as funds are available to provide a library subsidy to each school in accordance with the existing scale.


Is he aware that the Moomba Park State School Committee's application for subsidy to purchase equipment has been rejected for this year and that the school has been advised that there is no objection to the work being carried out immediately, provided the full costs are met from funds raised locally without any recoupment at a later stage; if so, will he consider reviewing this decision to allow the purchase of urgently needed equipment for which the committee has raised what would normally be their share of the cost?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister answer is

of Education) .-The

Yes. Further consideration is being given to the matter.


In addition to the schools listed on pages 73-76 of Hansard dated the 17th September last, for which applications for a building and/or equipment subsidy were rejected for 1968, what schools were also rejected for subsidy due to the late receipt of their application, and for what respective amounts?


of Education) .-The

No school's application was rejected because of late receipt.


What amount of money is necessary to satisfy the requests for buildings and equipment subsidies for the schoo.ls at present rejected for subsidy as shown on pages 73-76 of Hansard dated the 17th September last?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-A sum of $75,573.96 is required.

DYSLEXIA: RESEARCH: REMEDIAL FACILITIES.


(a) Following question No. 4 asked in this House on the 17th September last, what present or future research projects are being planned to. identify and cure children at primary schools suffering from dyslexia?

(b) What recommendations were made in the report of the Education Department's Remedial Education Committee, first made public in September, 1967, and what action was taken by the Department in adopting these recommendations?

( c ) If children may be referred to remedial facilities at whatever age the need becomes apparent, how does this need become apparent when-(i) teachers are not sufficiently well-trained to diagnose dyslexia; and (ii) the child may not have learnt to read before the grade 1 medical examination?

(d) Is he aware that the figure of 7,000 children in Victorian schoo.ls suffering from dyslexia, while being tentative was specifically quoted as a conservative estimate; if so, does he agree with Dr. Hagger's view that many children suffering from dyslexia remain unrecognized or inadequately helped, and if not, why?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-The answers are long and detailed, and I seek leave of the House for their incorporation in Hansard without being read.


(a) I am advised that the term "dyslexia" does not have a precise meaning, and a great deal of the theory, repo.rting and research in this area during the past 70 years has been concerned with the complex problems of definition, etiology and diagnosis. On these things there is no common agreement, and there is as yet

Education [1 OCTOBER.. 1968.] Department. 341

no clear evidence that dyslexia can be defined and identified as a separate entity among children who are backward in reading. It is therefore impossible at present to estimate its incidence. Research into methods of treatment and preventive programmes have so far been equally inconclusive. Confusion pervades much of the literature on the subject and the whole question of dyslexia is one of considerable speculation and dispute.

The Education Department has not as yet planned any specific research projects on dyslexia, but work preparatory to possible future research projects is in train. Literature and research evidence is being studied systematically within the context of the wider and more inclusive problem of learning difficulties. Contacts have been made both in Australia and overseas with workers in this field. It is expected that research projects will emerge from this activity fairly early in the future.

(b) The Education Department's Remedial Education Committee was concerned with the broad problem of reading difficulties, including both the remedial and the preventive aspects. Its recommendations were: A 1. The initial training of every primary

teacher should include training in diagnostics, remedial practices and individualized instruction relating to the language arts and mathematics.

2. In-service training courses in diagnostics, remedial practices and individualized instruction in the language arts and mathematics should be instituted for all class teachers, head teachers and infant mistresses.

3. Visiting teachers with specialized skills should be available, on request, as part of the existing ancillary services, to advise class teachers on general and individual problems related to class-room instruction in basic subjects.

B 1. All opportunity grades should ultimately become dual-purpose grades and later be developed as tutorial centres.

2. Remedial centres should not be converted to dual-purpose grades but should ultimately be developed as tutorial centres.

3. The tutorial centre teacher should have a dual role. He should be both a consultant visiting teacher and a specialist teacher conducting a unit providing remedial treatment for selected pupils.

4. The criteria for attendance at dualpurpose grades and tutorial centres should be liberal and flexible to allow the most effective use of them in the interests of a very wide range of children.

5. The Psychology and Guidance Branch should retain delegated departmental authority for placement in dualpurpose grades and tutorial centres.

6. Dual purpose grades and tutorial centres should be centrally located, each to serve a group of schools, to ensure that services are available to each inspectorate according to its needs.

7. A demonstration unit with a tutorial centre attached should be established in each inspectorial division in the metropolitan area, and consideration should be given to providing similar services to country districts.

8. Teachers working in demonstration units should be under the supervision and control of the supervisor of the education of backward children.

9. A remedial clinic should be established within the Psychology and Guidance Branch as soon as suitable staff and facilities can be made available.

C 1. As from the beginning of 1966, nominated courses should be granted teachers of experience with suitable personal qualities to enable them to undertake the course for Trained Special Teacher's Certificate. This group should include, by invitation, teachers selected from those at present serving in opportunity or dual-purpose grades or in established remedial centres or in special schools who have not completed the course for the Trained Special Teacher's Certificate.

These students would be additional to those on extended studentships from primary courses.

2. For teachers who completed the Trained Special Teacher's Certificate or the Certificate of Competency in Special School Work prior to 1964, a short course of training in diagnostics and the latest techniques of individualized instruction, of about one college term's duration, should be instituted in 1967.

3. The course for the Certificate of Competency in Special School Work should be discontinued.

4. Lecturers in the major areas of the course should have university qualifications with at least a major in psychology, and have suitable personal qualities and approved teaching experience. They should undertake some casework in an ancillary unit in the vicinity of the training establishment in order to keep in touch with developments.

5. A demonstration unit should be established in the vicinity of the Teachers' College, with adequate

342 Education Department. LCOUNCIL.] Natural Gas.

facilities for Trained Special Teacher's Certificate students to be trained during 1966 and thereafter.

The following steps have been taken:-A 1. This has been incorporated into the

three-year course of training for primary teachers.

2. Pilot projects have been conducted and in-service training has commenced as part of the function of the demonstration unit.

3. A start has been made as suitable teachers have become available. Seven teachers are providing this service at present.

B 1. All but nine of the 58 opportunity grades have already been converted.

2-6. These have been accepted as policy. 7. The first demonstration unit with an

associated tutorial centre was opened recently and is now in operation.

8-9. These have been accepted as policy.

C 1. Fifty-two of the total of 100 trained teachers who received this further training in the 1967 and 1968 academic years were experienced teachers who had been awarded free courses. The remainder were on extended studentships.

2. This is under consideration. 3. This course has been discontinued. 4. Accepted as policy, but not yet fully

implemented. 5. The demonstration unit at East Kew

is serving this purpose.

(c) Teachers readily identify children needing help beyond the resources of the class-room by their inability to progress. Whether among these children a special group of the kind the concept of "specific developmental dyslexia" postulates can be identified, the criteria for their identification and the most effective teaching methods to be used to help them are the questions at present being studied. These are the likely areas of future research.

(d) I am aware of the nature of Dr. Hagger's statement on incidence. Dr. McDonald Critchley, the neurologist whom Dr. Hagger quoted in arriving at his "conservative estimate", 'states "Neurologists agree . . . that we have no evidence as to the frequency of congenital reading disability among backward readers in general and that it is unlikely that they constitute more than a small proportion of even severe cases of reading disability".

The Education Department is aware of and is taking active steps to deal with the general problem of reading disability which necessarily includes dyslexia if it exists as an identifiable entity.

Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.

LAND SETTLEMENT. ROCHESTER PROJECT.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

With regard to the Rochester land settlement project-(i) when will the first farms be available for occupation; (ii) how many farms will be allocated during each of the next seven years; and (iii) what is the anticipated increase in population on the project area between now and 1975?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer is-

(i) It is expected that the first holdings will be occupied in the first quarter of 1969.

(ii) Subject to seasonal conditions and availability of funds both for development and water reticulation, a programme of ten to twelve farms a year is envisaged.

(iii) It is planned to have a total of 62 farms including six farms which are retention areas of original owners.

Assuming an average of five persons per family, the population on the project could be expected to increase by 280.

NATURAL GAS. DUTSON-DANDENONG PIPELINE:

FAULTS IN PIPES.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What were the reasons for leaving miles of 3D-in. gas line at various intervals along the natural gas line by contractors laying the pipe from Dandenong to Dutson?

(b) Who supplied the pipes that were left?

(c) If faults were discovered in the pipes, were they serious or was advice given by some advisers that the faults could have been eliminated by trimming, thus allowing the pipe laying to continue while the contractors were still in the vicinity?

( d) Who is to bear the cost of the additional X-ray investigation?

(e) What technical advice was considered before deciding to postpone the laying of the pipes?

(f) Did all the technical advisers agree to the postponement?

(g) What is the estimated additional cost which must result because of the contractor having to bring back men, machines, and any other necessary equipment and even having to resite the camp?

(h) Who bears this cost?

Natural Gas. [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Poultry Industry. 343


(a) A section of 24 miles between Araluen-road (north of Yarragon) and the Latrobe river (near Traralgon) was deferred solely because of the extremely boggy conditions (arising from the very wet weather at the time) and the desire to avoid the damage that would result to the agricultural properties under these conditions. Three separate sections totalling approximately 3:i miles near Dandenong, Berwick and Tynong were deferred because defects were found in some of the pipes to be laid in these sections.

(b) The pipes to be laid in the three sections near Dandenong, Berwick and Tynong were supplied by Nippon Kokan Kabushiki Kaisha, Japan.

(c) The defects were sufficient to warrant full investigation but delay in construction of the whole pipeline was minimized by transferring construction operations to other sections of the line. None of the advisers suggested eliminating the faults by trimming to allow the pipe laying to continue while the construction contractor was still in the vicinity; in fact, the tests necessary to determine which of the 673 pipes in question were defective took many weeks to carry out.

(d) The pipe manufacturer.

(e) Highly experienced metallurgical advice, based on extensive laboratory investigations.

(f) The metallurgists were unanimous in their advice that the pipes should not be laid until the nature and extent of defects had been fully assessed.

(g and h) The additional cost resulting from defects in these pipes cannot be fu Uy established until construction of the pipeline is complete and claims from the construction contractor have been assessed. As the pipe manufacturer did not fulfil his obligation to deliver pipes in accordance wit!t specification requirements. the application of the relevant contract conditions is currently under discussion with the pipe manufacturer. Accordingly, it is not appropriate that any further statement be made, at this stage, in answer to these two questions.

POULTRY INDUSTRY. COMPETITION: DRESSED CHICKENS

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) Has any action been taken to assist in the re-establishment of fair competition in the poultry industry?

(b) Has any consideration been given to-(i) legislation or regulations limiting the permissible moisture content of dressed chickens similar to that existing in Tasmania and South Australia; (ii) legislation for uniform contracts and standard conditions along the lines of those applying to tomato growers; and (iii) the establishment of an industry marketing authority?


(a) Discussions have been held individually and collectively with producers and processors in Victoria and interstate. However, at this stage I am unable to report any real progress as a result of these discussions, but the matter is being pursued.

(b) (i) Legislation specifying standards for frozen poultry, including limitation of the moisture content, is under consideration, and it is the Government's intention to introduce this legislation as soon as technical details currently being investigated are determined.

(ii) The possibility of establishing uniform contracts and standard conditions is the subject of discussions taking place between producers and processors. Several meetings have been arranged by my Department, and the matter is still under consideration by the parties concerned.

(iii) I have received from one organization representing poultry producers a request for the establishment of an appropriate commodity marketing board under the Marketing of Primary Products Act.

I am examining this request in the light of the provisions and requirements of that Act, some of which do not appear to be readily applicable to this particular industry.

OFF -SHORE PETROLEUM DEVELOPMENT.

HOUSING AND EDUCATIONAL

FACILITIES IN SALE.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) What assistance (if any) is to be given to Esso-B.H.P. to house their employees and other employees in the Sale area?

(b) Will Esso-B.H.P. be asked to assist financially in any of the matters they have raised with the Government in respect of education, housing, &c.; if so, to what extent?

344 Railway [COUNCIL.] Department.


(a) Eligible employees of Esso-B.H.P. who are applicants will form part of the general demand for Commission accommodation on which the Commission's building programme will be based. The Commission will be prepared to consider a limited allocation to key personnel in line with the policy operating throughout the State.

(b) The question of requiring Esso-B.H.P. to contribute towards the cost of housing has not been considered by the Commission. The need to develop schools and utility services is under close consideration by the respective authorities concerned.

BERWICK AIR PAGEANT.

DUMPING OF LITTER FROM AIRCRAFT.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) Is he aware that an air pageant at Berwick dumped quantities of toilet paper over neighbouring properties and farms?

(b) Did the Department of Civil Aviation and/or Group Air seek permission from the local council and the Local Government Department for dropping toilet paper and for stunt flying half a mile from the centre of the. town; if. so, was this permission gIVen; If not, dId such action contravene the requirements of the Local Government Act 1958?

(c) Did the dropping of toilet paper contravene the requirements of the Litter Act 1964: if so, what action is being considered?

. The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-The answers are-

(a) Yes. (b) No. No requirements of the Local

Government Act 1958 were contravened. (c) The Berwick Shire Council is seeking

legal advice on any action it may take under the Litter Act 1964.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES: BUSH-FIRE

PREVENTION MEASURES.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

In view of the possibility of acute fire danger during the summer period, what action is being taken by the Victorian Rail-

ways Commissioners to ensure that fires will not be accidently lit by diesel locomotives?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister answer is-

of Agriculture) .-The

Following the fires in 1968, allegedly caused by locomotives, it was arranged that Mr. King Simpson, director of fuel and lubricants, Electro-Motive Division of General Motors, United States of America, would inspect locomotive operations in this State. This visit took place in February, 1968.

Mr. King Simpson recommended that fuel oil containing a certain additive should not be used. Accordingly, no fuel oil containing this additive has since been used and the fire position improved immediately on the removal of the additive.

Quite apart from the additive in the fuel, the Commissioners made arrangements before Mr. Simpson's visit for locomotives on order to be equipped with a swirl type spark arrester.

Later, Mr. S. F. Keane, chief mechanical engineer, Victorian Railways, visited North America to discuss the matter with General Motors, American railways and fire authorities and the Association of American Railroads.

As a result the Commissioners have arranged for all locomotives (other than shunting locomotives) to be fitted with a new swirl type spark arrester. The fitting is expected to be completed prior to Christmas, 1968.

UNMANNED SUBURBAN STATIONS.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

What suburban railway stations are left unmanned after approximately 8 p.m. and what time is each unattended?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-As the answer is long and detailed, I seek leave of the House for its incorporation in Hansard without being read.

Railway [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department. 345

Leave was granted, and the answer was as follows:-The following is a list of stations where there are no staff on duty after the times

indicated:-

Stations. Mon. to Fri. Saturdays. Sundays.

Montague 8.30 p.m. 8.18 p.m. Closed alI day North Port 8.29 p.m. 8.17 p.m. 5.34 p.m. Graham Last train Last train 10.26 p.m. South Melbourne 9 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 11 p.m. Albert Park 8.58 p.m. 8.48 p.m. 5.34 p.m. Middle Park 8.56 p.m. 8.46 p.m. 5.37 p.m. Prahran 9.10 p.m. 9.11 p.m. 10.34 p.m. Windsor 9.10 p.m. 9.9 p.m. 5.52 p.m. Ripponlea 9 p.m. 9 p.m. 5.49 p.m. Gardenvale Last train Last train 5.44 p.m. Brighton Beach 8.49 p.m. 8.56 p.m. 5.38 p.m. Hawks burn 9.26 p.m. 8 p.m. 5.23 p.m. Toorak 9.23 p.m. 9.2 p.m. 10.30 p.m. Armadale 9.21 p.m. 9.28 p.m. 5.28 p.m. Patterson 9.22 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 10.44 p.m. Bon Beach 8.30 p.m. 8.30 p.m. 10.19 p.m. Carnegie 9.2 p.m. 8.51 p.m. 10.45 p.m. Hughesdale 8.57 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 10.45 p.m. Westall 8.15 p.m. 8.15 p.m. 5.19 p.m. Sandown Park 8.39 p.m. 8.33 p.m. 5.20 p.m .. South· Kensington 8.32 p.m. 8.39 p.m. 5.27 p.m. Seddon 8.30 p.m. 8.35 p.m. 5.44 p.m. Spotswood 8.24 p.m. 8.30 p.m. 5.40 p.m. Seaholme ·8.30 p.m. 7.45 p.m. 4.59 p.m. Altona 9.26 p.m. 8.52 p.m. 10 .5 p.m. North Williamstown 8.18 p.m. 8.25 p.m. 9.25 p.m. Williamstown Beach ·8.18 p.m. 8.23 p.m. 9.38 p.m. Williamstown .. 11.40 p.m. Last train Last train Williamstown Pier (As required account trains) Middle Footscray 8.51 p.m. 8.40 p.m. 5.25 p.m. West Footscray 8.49 p.m. 8.36 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Albion 8.35 p.m. 8.30 p.m. 5.14 p.m. Kensington 9.15 p.m. 8.54 p.m. 5.35 p.m. Newmarket Last train Last train 10.17 p.m. Glenbervie 8.25 p.m. 8.43 p.m. 5.33 p.m. Strathmore 8.23 p.m. 8.44 p.m. 5.32 p.m. Oak Park 8.18 p.m. 8.35 p.m. 5.27 p.m. Jacana 8.14 p.m. 8.33 p.m. 5.33 p.m. Flemington Bridge 8.52 p.m. 8.40 p.m. Last train Jewell 8.48 p.m. 8.36 p.m. Last train Brunswick 11.2 p.m. Last train Last train Moreland 10.40 p.m. 10.21 p.m. Last train Merlynston 8.30 p.m. 8.32 p.m. Last train East Richmond 9.14 p.m. 9.4 p.m. 6 p.m. Heyington 8.49 p.m. 9.8 p.m. 5.27 p.m. Kooyong 8.46 p.m. 9.8 p.m. 5.24 p.m. Gardiner 8.41 p.m. 9.2 p.m. 5.20 p.m. Glen Iris 8.39 p.m. 9 p.m. 10.31 p.m. Holmesglen 8.32 p.m. 8.53 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Jordanville 8.29 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Mount Waverley 8.27 p.m. 8.47 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Syndal 8.24 p.m. 8.44 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Glenferrie 10 p.m. Last train 10.30 p.m. Auburn 9.36 p.m. 9.10 p.m. 10.37 p.m. Riversdale 8.36 p.m. 8.44 p.m. All day Willison 8.29 p.m. 8.42 p.m. All day Hartwell 8 p.m. 8 p.m. All day Burwood 8.30 p.m. 8.38 p.m. All day Alamein 8.29 p.m. Prior to 5.25 a.m.

after 8.32 p.m. East Camberwell Last train Last train 10.55 p.m. Canterbury 11 p.m. Last train 10.32 p.m. Chatham 9.24 p.m. 8.27 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Mont Albert . . 9.20 p.m. 8.32 p.m. 10.42 p.m .

346 Railway LCOUNCIL.] Department.

Stations.

Laburnum Nunawading Heatherdale Heathmont Boronia Upwey Tecoma Ringwood East Jolimont North Richmond Collingwood Rushall Merri Croxton Thornbury Bell Preston Regent Ruthven Thomastown Epping Westgarth Dennis Darebin Eaglemont Rosanna Watsonia Montmorency .. Diamond Creek Wattle Glen "

BLACKSHA W'S-ROAD CROSSING,

NEWPORT.


Will the Victorian Railways Commissioners place large diagonally-slanting strip reflectorized hazard markers on the rail gates at Blackshaw's-road crossing, Newport; if so, when; if not, why?


The Railways Commissioners do not propose to place such markers on these gates. In accordance with standard practice, the gates are painted white and are fitted with a red light at night.

I understand that an armco safety guard rail of a light silvery colour has been provided on the Melbourne and Blackshaw's roads comer of the crossing, and that, following a suggestion by the Commissioners, the street lighting at the crossing has recently been improved by the council.

Mon. to Fri. Saturdays. Sundays.

8.59 p.m. 8.31 p.m. 5.30 p.m. 8.54 p.m. 8.45 p.m. 9.54 p.m. 8.47 p.m. 8.40 p.m. 5.30 p.m. 8.58 p.m. 8.34 p.m. 5.34 p.m. 8.49 p.m. 8.27 p.m. 10.27 p.m. 8.17 p.m. 8.17 p.m. 10.40 p.m. 8.15 p.m. 8.15 p.m. 10.35 p.m. 8.35 p.m. 8.36 p.m. 5.35 p.m. 9.7 p.m. 8.59 p.m. 5.27 p.m.

9.59 p.m. 9 p.m. 6 p.m. 9.56 p.m. 8.54 p.m. 10 p.m. 8.56 p.m. 8.48 p.m. 5.37 p.m. 8.53 p.m. 8.45 p.m. 5.9 p.m. 9.26 p.m. 8.43 p.m. 5.32 p.m. 9.34 p.m. 9 p.m. 10 p.m. Last train Last train 10 p.m. 9.19 p.m. 8.45 p.m. 5.26 p.m. Last train Last train 10.48 p.m. 8.39 p.m. 8.29 p.m. 5.30 p.m. Last train Last train 11.15 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 8.50 p.m. 5 p.m. 8.51 p.m. 8.51 p.m. 10.52 p.m. 8.38 p.m. 8.48 p.m. 5.32 p.m. 8.32 p.m. 8.42 p.m. 5.26 p.m. 8.29 p.m. 8.39 p.m. 5.23 p.m. 8.23 p.m. 8.37 p.m. 5.18 p.m. 8.26 p.m. 8.27 p.m. 5.2 p.m. 8.9 p.m. 8.20 p.m. 5.26 p.m.

8.22 p.m. 8.8 p.m. 4.14 p.m. 8.23 p.m. 8.4 p.m. 5.30 p.m.

----

LEVEL CROSSINGS. INSTALLATION OF BOOM GATES.


When a municipal council refuses to pay one-third of the amount payable for the installation of boom gates and widening of roadways at an area under the announced policy of the Government, will the Railway Department still go ahead with the work and bear the full cost; if not, what action is contemplated to reduce the congestion, delays, and traffic hazards at these crossings?


No. If a municipal council wishes to have boom barriers installed, the Government will pay two-thirds of the cost and have the work carried out by the Railway Department in collaboration with the council.

The honorable member may be interested to know that fifteen councils have consulted with the Railway Department and the

Clean Air Act. [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Medical Practitioners. 347

scheme is going ahead. The first installation at North-road, Ormond, has in fact been completed.

CLEAN AIR ACT. EMISSION OF SAND FROM ABLE SANDBLASTING CO. PTY. LTD., SUNSHINE.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Health-

What action has been taken by the Clean Air Section of the Department of Health to see that Able Sandblasting Co. Pty. Ltd. of Surishine complies with the Clean Air Act 1958 with respect to emission of sand from their premises, and what further action is planned by the section to see that emission of sand is controlled?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The answer is-

Plans and specifications of the air pollution control equipment at the premises of Able Sandblasting Co. Pty. Ltd. of Sunshine were examined by the Clean Air Section, and the installation was approved by the Commission of Public Health in the terms of the Clean Air legislation on the 13th February, 1968.

Testing of this equipment for compliance with the Clean Air Regulations, 1965, was carried out by the Clean Air Section during the month of March, 1968, and the outlet concentration was found to be well within the prescribed limits.

Periodical testing will be carried out by the Clean Air Section to ensure that the Clean Air Regulations are not contravened.

MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS. AVAILABILITY IN COUNTRY AREAS.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) asked the Minister of Health-

(a) Is he aware of the guarantee scheme introduced in New South Wales to attract medical practitioners to country areas?

(b) Has the Government considered the introduction of a similar scheme in Victoria?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The answers are:-

I am aware of the guarantee scheme introduced in New South Wales to attract medical practitioners to country areas.

There is at present in Victoria a scheme which seeks to encourage medical practitioners to come to Victoria from overseas, principally from Great Britain, for practice in country areas which are able to support a doctor. The Victorian scheme guarantees a minimum income of $8,000 a year but

experience has shown that this guaranteed minimum income is not a major factor in obtaining overseas medical practitioners for country practice. In no case has the Government been called upon to meet any part of the guarantee.

The effect of the medical school of the Monash University upon the number of medical practitioners available in Victoria should be felt by 1970, and this should go a long way towards overcoming the present inability of many country areas to attract and retain the services of medical practitioners.

VICTORIAN UNIVERSITIES AND SCHOOLS EXAMINATIONS BOARD.

FEES CHARGED: SCHOOL EXAMINATIONS: FINANCES: CONSTITUTION.


(a) In each of the past five years what were the fees charged for intermediate, leaving, and matriculation certificates and examinations, and what was the total income and expenditure of the Victorian Universities and Schools Examinations Board?

(b) What are the bodies and individual representatives on the Board at presen4 ~nd h.as any consideration been given to mcludmg a representative of the Victorian Secondary Teachers' Association' if so why has this body been excluded from me:nbership?


The question asked by the honorable member relates to the Victorian Universities and Schools Examinations Board. I referred this matter t<? the secretary of the Board, who has adVIsed that as the Board is a statutory body of the three Victorian universities, questions concerning its finance and constitution should be directed to the Vice-Chan~ellors of the three universities. The questIons have therefore been referred to the Vice-Chancellors of the constituent universities, and the honorable member will be advised as soon as the information is available.

COUNTY COURT (JURISDICTION) BILL.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for L'0cal Government).-I move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. The principal pur-pose .of this Bill ,is t'0 abolish Courts of General Sessions of the Peace and to vest their jurisdiction ,in the County Cour.t. Courts

348 County Court [COUNCIL.] (Jurisdiction) Bill.

of General Sessions have a long history in England, going right back to the creation of the office of justice of the peace .in the fourteenth century. They were, in fact, conceived as courts for jus'Dices of the peace, and justices have sat in General Sessions in England ever since the fourteenth century.

At page 285, volume 1, thi,rd edition of his treatise, A History of English Law, Professor Holdsworth stated-

We have seen that justices specially commissioned by the Crown had introduced all over the country the newer remedies and the more effective procedures of the courts of common law. The same device was used to reform the police system and the petty criminal jurisdiction of the older courts. They, too, were first controlled and then supplanted by persons specially commi~sioned by the Crown who came to be called the justices of the peace. Successive statutes added to their duties and made them, in time, the rulers of the county.

In the case of Austral1ia, an early Imperial st'atute provided that Courts of General Sessions were to be held in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land and their dependencies and olothed the courts with power and authority to take cognizance of all -matters and things 'cognizable in Courts of Gener'al Sessions or Courts of Quarter Sessjons in England so far as the -circumstances and conditJion of the said Colony should require and adm,it. When Vktol'lia was separated from New South Wales, the Justices of the Peace Statute 1865 was the first Victorian legislation on the m'atter, and the provisions of Part VII. of the current Justices Act reflect the provisions of the 1865 enactment. Ol'liginaHy, some HmitaNons ,were placed on the 'competence of Courts of General Sessions. For reasons which I shall short'ly explain, it .is proposed by this BiB to remove some of the limitations.

The real origin 'Of the Bill was the appointment jn 1963 by the AttorneyGeneral of a committee to investigate various aspeots of the -admlinistration of justice in Victoria. The chairman 'Of this committee was Mr. Justice Sm.ith and on it were repre-

The Hon. R. J. Hamer.

sentatives from the County Court Bench, the magist:rates, the Law Department, the Law InstJitJute and the bar. This BiU g.ives effect basically to the recom'mendat1ons of that committee. I should Hke to quote one section of the comm,ittee's report because lit forms the basis of the m'easure. It reads-

The present distinction between th~ County Court exercising civil jurisdiction and the Court of General Sessions exercising largely criminal jurisdiction is artificial in practice. The distinction between the two courts requires that their sittings (for the same day in the same town) must be separately gazetted, their jurors must be separately summoned, the courts separately opened and adjourned. While the one Judge is sitting without leaving the Bench, it is common for him in the course of half a day to Gbserve the formalities of opening the County Court, adjourning it again and so on. All of this is productive of unnecessary formality, delay and expense in the administration of justice. The distinction reflects only the historical origins of the Court of General Sessions, namely, justices sitting in Quarter Sessions in England. Doubtless in Victoria the legal theory is that the court is a court of all the justices of a particular bailiwick sitting in sessions together and presided over by a chairman appointed by the Governor in Council. In Victoria it has never been the practice, so far as the committee has been able to ascertain, for justices of the peace to sit in General Sessions or Quarter Sessions so that in practice the Court of General Sessions is composed of a County Court Judge sitting as chairman of a court of which he is the sole sitting member.

On the principal ground that justices of the peace have never generally or r.onsistentlv constituted the court in Victoria, and for the avoidance of duplication. the Government feels that the jurisdiction of Courts of General Sessions should properly be transferred to the County Court. HonorabJe members will also recall that earlier in this sessional period the House passed a Bill abolishing hailiwicks to which Courts of General Sessions in some respects are tied. The two matters are linked together.

The basic scheme of the Bill is to repeal Part VII. of the Justices Act 1958, which makes provision for the establishment of Courts of General Sessions, and to transfer those provisions to the County Court. In

County Court [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] (Jurisdiction) Bill. 349

general terms, clause 2 adds to the statement of the jurisdiction of the County Court in section 4 of the County Court Act a reference to the criminal jurisdiction proposed to be conferred by the Bill.

Clause 3, which inserts two new sections in the principal Act, contains a number of transitory provisions designed to make easy the transfer of criminal jurisdiction from the Court of General Sessions to the County Court. All places and times appointed for holding General Sessions will, in future, be deemed places and times for holding the County Court; business pending in General Sessions will be diverted to the County Court; and County Court officers will be enabled to keep and certify General Sessions records.

Clause 4, which amends section 7 of the principal Act, is a procedural provision which relates to a problem in requiring notices to be posted at the court house of the actual sitting days of the court. This was practicable when court sittings, particularly in the country, lasted only a few days and the duration of the sittings could be fairly accurately estimated. Nowadays, however, the only certain factor is the commencing date of a sitting. The clause proposes that only the commencing date need be publicized and that it may be publicized in the Government Gazette rather than on the notice board at the court house.

Clause 5 relates to the allowance payable under sub-section (3) of section 10 of the County Court Act to the chairman of County Court Judges. The present allowance is $600. Having regard to the ever-increasing duties of the chairman, which will be increased by this Bill, the Government proposes that the allowance shall be increased to $1,500.

Clause 6, which inserts a new subsection (4) in section 23 of the principal Act, relates to bailiffs. It will clear up a difficulty that has arisen

because in places other than Melbourne the County Court bailiff is usually a member of the Police Force, as also are his assistants. They perform this work in addition to normal police duties, although they are entitled to receive fees for acting in this capacity. The bailiff at Melbourne may be said to be a private person because he is not a police officer or a public servant but is appointed by the Governor in Council. The proposed new sub-section will ratify the existing practice and enable the bailiff at Melbourne to appoint a licensed process server as his assistant.

Clause 7 inserts a new Division lA. into the County Court Act to confer criminal jurisdiction on the County Court. Proposed new section 36A gives wider jurisdiction to the County Court than section 191 of the Justices Act presently confers upon Courts of General Sessions. This has been accomplished by omitting some of the limitations currently applicable, namely-

(a) composing, printing or publishing blasphemous, seditious or defamatory libels;

(b) offences under subdivisions (17) and (18) of Division 2 of Part 1. of the Crimes Act 1958 rela ting to certain frauds by agents, bankers, trustees, partners and others; and

(c) offences by corporate bodies.

The principal reason for the omissions is that the court will no longer be a " justices" court in the sense that justices may sit, but must be constituted by a Judge alone. With a Judge sitting, there is much less need to reserve cases to the Supreme Court than if justices commonly sat. The present paragraph (vi) in section 191 is re-expressed to avoid what has .always been an awkward doublenegative construction. The proposed new sub-section (2) clothes the County Court in its criminal jurisdiction with the same powers in relation to criminal cases as the Supreme Court.

350 Consolidated [COUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

Clause 8 confers upon the County Court the appeal function that General Sessions now have from Courts of Petty Sessions and justices. In keeping with the structure of the County Court Act, the proposed new section 53A in clause 8 recites the nature of the appellate functions of the court.

Clauses 9, 10 and 11 contain consequential amendments to the general procedure, as does the schedule. Although a few minor matters are dealt with, the main purpose of the Bill is simply to close down Courts of General Sessions in Victoria and allow the County Courts to exercise all their appellate and criminal jurisdiction. I commend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of the Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y (Melbourne North Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, October 8.

CONSOLIDATED REVENUE BILL. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Min

ister of Agriculture) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

The period for which Supply has been granted expired on 30th September last, and pending the passing of the Appropriation Act further Supply is necessary to cover payments falling due after that date. This Bill covers Supply for the months of October, November and December, 1968. The amount provided in the measure is $119,678,300. This provision is required to cover payments' falling due under departmental votes during the ensuing three months.

The divisions contained in the Supply schedule correspond with the Estimates of Expenditure which have been presented with the Budget, and the sums listed in the schedule under each division represent the amounts necessary to cover payments falling due in the three months ending on the 31 st December next. Provision has been made to cover the payment of

salaries and wages falling due on the three pay days which occur on 3rd, 17th and 31st October, 1968. On these dates the normal fortnightly payment of salaries and wages will be made to employees in all Departments other than the Railway Department. The normal fortnightly payment of salaries and wages payable to the staff of the Railway Department in October fall on the 10th and 24th.

Provision has also been made for the payment to the Insurance Commissioner of the annual premium in respect of the policy of workers compensation insurance covering governmental employees other than those employed by the Forests Commission, the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission and the Railway Department. The amount required to cover this premium, which will be paid in December next, is $1,800,000.

The Government has arranged for the annual payment of $20 for each secondary pupil and $10 for each primary pupil attending registered schools on 1st August of each year. In accordance with the provisions of the Educational Grants Act 1967, these amounts are payable to the school authorities in two instalments. The first instalment is paid in April and the second instalment is payable in October of each year. Provision has been made in the Supply schedule for the payment in October of the second instalment for 1968. This payment will amount to approximately $1,350,000. Late in August last, the Government announced that the State Coal Mine at Wonthaggi would close at the end of this year. The amount of Supply provided under Division No. 82, State Coal Mine, anticipates the closing of the mine by 31st December next.

The matters I have mentioned cover the more significant individual items which arise this financial year during the period of three months ending on 31 st December next, and for which provision is required to be made in the Supply Bill now before

Consolidated [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Revenue Bill. 351

the House. As 1 said at the outset, the period for which Supply has already been granted expired on 30th September last. I therefore ask for this measure to be dealt with as expeditiously as possible. If any information is required under any particular item, 1 shall be happy to supply it during the debate. 1 commend the Bill to the House.

The Hon. J. W. GAL BALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 vigorously oppose Supply in this instance because of the lamentable and damaging attitude of the Government towards the responsibilities of a Minister of the Crown, whose recent public utterances have caused great concern and alarm in the community. The gypsy-like concept of Ministerial responsibility, the habit of a Minister shuffling from one portfolio to another without an assumption of responsibility, resembles a "snakes and ladders" attitude, with the Minister going up, ever upward on a ladder and the public purse dropping back to square one and being devoured by a reptile. However, nobody is to blame!

The House has heard me on this subject before. If in the process over the years it were possible for me to drive home the meaning of Ministerial responsibility, 1 would feel that my time in Parliament had not been wasted. With vast sums of money being garnered by the Government from the public, rich and poor alike, the misuse and extravagant spending of these funds must be even more jealously guarded against, but today there are no safeguards for the expenditure of public moneys. If a Department is found to be extravagant, wasteful or inefficient and a Minister is questioned about it, his answer is, "It has been going on for years. Ask someone else about it. "

In this State it is the day of the mini-Minister or, if one prefers, it may be considered a game of hiding behind the relevant Department's skirts. I shall give the House the rules of the mini-Ministers' club. The first

rule is that it is the business of the Department, not the Minister, to govern. The second rule is that Ministers must not be asked to assume too many duties or responsibilities, but only to receive honours, privileges and social acclaim. One can understand that there would not be time to discharge any responsibility. The third rule, which is most important, is that Parliament must be by-passed. An instance of this was seen tonight in the introduction of Supply. The Government says that Supply must be passed, otherwise the public servants will not be paid, and Parliament will be to blame. That is the rule in the club, but what happens when some criticism arises, such as emerged recently when the report from the Committee of Public Accounts was presented?

The fourth rule is that whenever there is legitimate criticism or suggestions for improvement are made the Minister must be absolved. Criticism of a Department must never be referrable to the head of the Department. The fifth rule is to get rid of the Opposition. The s'ixth rule is the abolition of freedom of speech be'cause it is dangerous. From time to tim'e in this House honorable memhers have heard criticism of me and 1 have had to endure savage attacks. The seventh rule is 'that, if things do nOit gO' according to the GDvernment's plans, there should be interference with the daily work OIf the courts.

What does ithe old-fashioned rule Df Ministerial responsibility mean? Does it mean that if the office boy catches a cOold the M,inister contracts pneumonia? Of course it does nOit. Nor does it mean that if the office boy takes a few stamps or is late for work, the Minister is responsible. The rule of IMinisterial responsibility means that the Minister is captain of the ship and that ,if the ship goes down he goes down. In no other way can Parliamentary democracy work. Noblesse oblige-if one becomes a Minister of the CrDwn one accepts


those responsibilities. One says, "I stand in the shoes of that Department ". What is the alternative? How does one reach the Department except through the Minister? Traditionally, public servants are honest. If one accepts the suggestion that there has been an erosion of the fabric of our Parliamentary government for nigh on thirteen years, and that the Public Works Department is in a higgledy piggledy position with extravagance and waste everywhere, how is it to be cleaned up? To smash this doctrine, to smother it, is to give way to a terrible bureaucracy responsible to no one. Of course, it is even more important today that this principle should be affirmed and reaffirmed because there is hardly an activity in the community into which some Government Department is not prying.

This doctrine was rarely necessary 100 years ago-it was there, but the Government· did not intrude into our daily affairs-but it is in everybody's pocket today. There must be Minis ters in charge of the Treasury, the Forests Commission and the Public Works Department, and each must be responsible for his Department. It may be said that such a doctrine is harsh. I concede that this doctrine does not mean personal responsibility for all acts and omissions by the Department; but it does mean responsibility for the policies and the general administration of the Department. If it is found that the Department has failed over the years, the Minister goes down with the Department.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-You mean responsibility for other than appointments made through the Public Service Board?

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The Public Service Board is under the control of the Treasury.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-The Board is independent in regard to the making of appointments.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-I appreciate that fact. Does the Minister of Agriculture suggest that the Public Service Board runs the State?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-I suggest that staff appointments are the prerogative of the Board.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALL Y.-Of course they are. The principle I have enunciated is one about which every honorable member should say, "I do not care what else is eroded, I am not going: to give this practice away." In thIrteen years not one Minister of this Government has ever acknowledged that the work of his Depart':' ment has failed .. When shortcomings have been revealed, the Minister concerned has hidden behind departmental skirts, which is a most unworthy attitude to take.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Oh, no!

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Oh, yes! I am being fair. I recall the deplorable attitude of the Minister of Land~ a few years ago. The principle of responsibility contained in our Parliamentary democracy is a most valuable and priceless safeguard. Lately there have been miserable examples in the community of company directors being called upon to account for certain shortcomings and saying, "Really, I do not know what went on in the board room. I was deaf. You cannot expect me to examine a balance-sheet". Is this ki~~ of attitude to be developed by Mm]sters of the Crown in Victoria who. by analogy would say, "I hav~ no tIme to attend to the affairs of the Department. It is true that things are not what they might be, but what is that to me?"

Th~ Government has done nothing. It wIll do what it has done in the pa:s!;. it will run roughshod over cr~t~c~sm. It will refer to the present cnticism as mere political expediency and of no worth. It is true that we will be overawed by the juggernaut of numbers. I am the first to concede that this Government has been hard


to shift. While it is in office, it is tearing down, and eating the very structure for which it should be fighting. There is unrest, disappointment, dismay and desolation within political parties in Victoria. It would be tragic if the Victorian Government did not acknowledge the wonderful safeguards of old-fashioned rules. The Minister of Public Works should say, "My Department has failed; give me my hat, I will resign and make a gesture. Without my doing that, there is no way in which our Parliamentary institution can work. " The occupants of the Ministerial bench have failed to acknowledge this doctrine. I concede that, in some ways, it may be considered to be unfair, but where high office is assumed, great responsibility must also be assumed. This is found not only in politics; it is the human instinct of the mother protecting her cubs, and of the father standing in front of his children opposing those who would seek to destroy. It is inherent in animal and human relations. Above all, it ought to be characteristic of an honorable and honest Government.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province) .-It is unusual for a Supply Bill to be introduced at such a late date, the last period of Supply having ended on 30th September. I understand that the measure could have been passed last week. Honorable members are placed in the invidious position of having inadequate time in which to make a detailed examination of the measure. Naturally, we are bound to vote for it. In another place there was little debate and no great comment on Supply. No doubt, there are many other weightier things on the minds of honorable members than the passing of Supply for the next three months.

Mr. Galbally raised a matter which I should have preferred to debate as a separate issue, because it is extremely important. I cannot view with any great pleasure the report made by the Committee of Public

Accounts on the affairs of the Public Works Department. The subject of Ministerial responsibility relates not only to one Minister in one Government, but to a principle that has grown up and has been enshrined in our Parliamentary institutions over the centuries. Ministers of the Crown should be responsible to the people for the control of their Departments; they should protect the people and the Departments from the results of inefficiency or worse. Ministers undertake the duties of a high office. Consequently, it is proper that the report of the Committee of Public Accounts relating to the Public Works Department should be debated.

The Country Party does not wish to attack the Government or any particular Minister, but it believes that all honorable members should stand firmly behind the principle of Ministerial responsibility, which means full responsibility. This contention has nothing to do with personalities ; it is a matter of rights and duties that affect this Parliament. It is the essence of democracy. If democracy fails, it is because Parliamentarians have failed to realize their duties to the Parliamentary institutions and the people.

There is a certain malaise in the community today. A recent press article expressed the view that today youth is demonstrating in many parts of the world, and particularly in Australia. because they no longer have confidence in the governing institutions to protect them from the evils of the world. That may be true. There is something in the minds of youth that we do not understand; they have a great fear of the future or they would not behave as they are doing today.

It is a landmark that a committee composed of all political parties should bring down such a fearlessly expressed and completely unbiased report. It indicated, in effect, that the Public Works Department had been badly run and that it should be checked from top to bottom and

354 Consolidated [<;OUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

completely overhauled. A Minister should be personally responsible for the Department he administers. I agree that he cannot be responsible for every minute detail of day-to-day work, but he should be responsible for its over-all administration. If his Department is weak, he should take the necessary steps to rectify the position. He should not merely keep an office seat warm, allow shortcomings to rest and do nothing to improve his Department. People believe that he should accept responsibility for the actions of his Department. The Minister of Public Works was reported in a recent newspaper article as having said-

After all, I am there to control the Department but not to be responsible for all the administration.

I do not know what that means; perhaps the Leader of the House can explain that statement. If the Minister had said, "I am not responsible for the minor administration or each small detail that takes place in the Department ", possibly his argument would have been sound. However, he must be responsible for the over-all administration. The Public Works Department is responsible for building schools, hospitals, and so on, for a number of client Departments; it is the constructing authority for the various Departments.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-It is paid 11 per cent. in oncost charges for doing so.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-That is so. These charges take quite a large percentage out of the available loan funds to pay for architects' fees, the preparation of plans and specifications, and the supervision of works. This money which is paid to the Public Works Department should be expended on building work.

Members of the Country Party believe that Ministers should be fully responsible for the Departments which they administer. After all, when they are sworn as Ministers they take an oath that they will act

without fear or favour and will undertake their work thoroughly and efficiently. The people are entitled to expect Departments to be run efficiently because one Department or another is in either full or partial charge of almost every activity. Water supply, electricity, transport, education, police, health services and hospitals are all largely controlled by public Departments. Although this is a free enterprise country, great reliance is placed on public Departments in all of these activities. Therefore, there is a heavy duty on each Minister to ensure that the Departments are carried on efficien tly.

Part of the general weakness today is the fact that Parliament is becoming a rubber stamp; a Government is elected, the Executive takes charge, and from then on most members of Parliament are merely messenger boys for their electorates; they have no power or authority in the House except with the permission of the Executive. Therefore, there is a duty upon each Minister to be like Caesar's wife-absolutely above suspicion. I believe the majority of Ministers are in this category, and I am not making an attack on any Minister in this House.

It might be a good idea if the Committee of Public Accounts, which has done such a wonderful job in reporting on the Public Works Departmen t, were to examine the activities of other Departments. I ask you, Mr. President, to convey that thought to the Leader of the House. I believe the honorable gentleman should suggest to the Premier that the Committee of Public Accounts should investigate other Departments, perhaps commencing with the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission and the Department of Health. If the Departments came through such an examination with flying colours, they could be given a medal, or a resolution could be passed congratulating them on their efficiency.


No O'ne expects perfection from the Public Service ot from a Department, because everyone realizes that such a state is impossible of achievement. However, it is expected that l\1inisters in charge of Departments should accept full responsibility for the running of their Departments. When criticism is levelled at a Department's activities, the Minister concerned should be prepared to answer it and to state what he proposes to dO' to rectify the evils or anomalies that are discovered. Members of the Country Party intend to support this Supply Bill, although I regret that honorable members have not the opportunity of expressing their opinion O'n the question whether Parliament is acting correctly in permitting Ministers to avoid their responsibilities. One of the tasks of Parliament is to ensure that Ministers face up to their responsibilities and carry out their duties efficiently.

The sitting was suspended. at 6.22 p.m. until 7.53 p.m.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province) .-This measure lis concerned with the granting of Supply. It is interesting that, although we have heard the strictures of my Leader, Mr. Galbally, and the softly-worded passing references of Sir Percy Byrnes 'On behalf 'Of the Country Party, to date no reply has been forthcoming from the Government. It appears that the Government has nO' supporters in this Chamber and, from what is being broadcast around the State at the moment, it appears that it has no supporters O'utsidee'ither.

Sir Percy Byrnes suggested 'that the inquiry into the Public Works Department 'could be followed by inquiries into olther Government Departments. It is obvious that the inquiry intO' the Public Works Department has disclosed govern,mental ineptitude; and if inquiries into other Departments are justified, it seem,s that the Government iscomp'osed of Ministers who cannot govern. If that is the

case, the quickest w,ay in which to remedy this state of affairs is to throw the GO'vernment out and replace it with a Government which will clean up the whole mess. Members O'f my party would be happy to help ,the Country Party in carrying out such a task.

When listening to Sir Percy's soft words, I pondered on his transparency. I wondered in what light he was viewing the Government. I was not sure whether he was criticizing O'r softly commending the GO'vernmen t, or whether he looked upon 'Ministers as bunglers or botchers, as angels or devils, or as, sheep or wO'lves in sheep's clothing. I was unable to reach a conclusion. Over many years there have been instances 'Of bungling in the adm'inistr:ation of Departments in this State, and the report O'f the Committee of Public AccO'unts provides a further example. In all cases the bungling ean be attributed to the inefficiency and ineptitude of Ministers of the Crown.

I t seems that the stage has been reached when Ministers line up in a queue to await an investigation into the administration of their Departments. I suggest that the queue is already crowded, and I wonder how many investigations are to follow. In the past many members of the Government have formed p,art O'f that queue. The Premier, acting for the M,inister 'Of Water Supply,was concerned in the matter O'f the famous Ansett dam. Even Mr. Hunt, who sits on the Government side O'f the House, was critical of the handling of that matter; and if a member of the Government party was critical, members of the Opposition could not be impeached for being critical of the Premier. A former Minister of Lands was concerned in the famous northwest Mallee incident, and a former Minister of Public Works was concerned in the Kings Bridge fiasco. HO'norable members will recall that on that occasion the jingle" London


Bridge is falling down" was frequently heard on radiO' and television. Moreover, every member of the Government who has been permanently or temporarily Minister of Education has in some way bungled the administration of the Department so far as it related to the purchase and acquisition of land, although I shall not go into details in that regard.

As Sir Percy Byrnes has said, there will be more investigations, and the investigation into the Public Works Department can be regarded merely as a p'reliminary gallop. Everybody from the permanent head of a Department--who cannot protect himself in Parliament-do,wn to the m.ost junior .office boy is criticized by Royal Commissions, Select Committees, boards of inquiry, and now the Committee of Public Accounts. The Minister is never 'offkially mentioned, although he is the guilty party. If the Government frames written terms of reference, it ensures that reference to the conduct 'Of the Minister is not within those terms. Therefore, the investigating authority cannot deal with the person who is responsible for faHure 'Or 'inefficiency.

This is part of the constitutional history of the British system of government. The administrators are supposed to be isolated from politics. The Constitution Act Amendment Act provides that administrators shall perform no political acts or functions and shall take no official secrets into the public gaze. They are the silent service because they can work only through the Ministers who administer their Departments. They have no one to speak on their behalf or to censure them, if that is necessary. They can be protected only by the Minister and censored only through the Minister.

The Minister of Public Works went on record in the press and on television to divorce himself not merely from some phases of responsibility for inefficiency in his Department, but from responsibility from any of

The Hon. Samuel Merrifield.

the matters on which the Committee of Public Accounts reported. That is a complete denial of ,M,inisterial res-ponsihility. I do. not argue on whether the payment is suffident or insufficient but, if a Minister accepts payment, he must a,ccept 'Ministerial responsibility.

The Public Service Act provides for Ministers to accept administrative resP'Onsibility in various ways. A Minister must be concerned 'with the personal conduct of his officers-that is, whether they drink or misconduct themselves in any way during office hours. He is also concerned when officers evade their duties lin any way or whether, having accepted office as holding particul'ar skills, they are guilty of any negligence 'Or of conduct which does not comply with the standard of service for which they are paid. The Public Service Act provides penalties for an officer guilty of any breach of regulation under the Act, of misconduct, of negligence or carelessness in t!he discharge of duty, of iineffi'Ciency or incompetency when such inefficiency or incompetency appears to arise from causes within the officer's control, and of disgra,ceful or improper conduct.

When the offence is minor, the permanent head of a Department may discipline the officer. If the officer cares to appeal, the Minister is the final determinator of the appeal. Therefore, the Minister has considerable say on even the most minor matters. On matters which cannot be dealt with by the permanent head .of the Department-and their Hsting covers a page and a half of the Actthe Minister has direct obligations under the legislation. He must deal with matters relating to the personal conduct of an officer, misdemeanours, or failure to carry out duty, whether it is the design of a separate structure or the ,administration of a Department by a senior offioer. Incases 'Of officers breaching the regulations, the Minister must see that the penalties are applied. He may refer a charge


for hearing by the Public Service Board, but it is his responsibility to see that these matters are corrected.

On matters of policy, who !the devil is to ensure that public policy is properly executed? Surely it is not the office boy, the doorman, or the !iftman? The State p-ays only one person to accept the responsibility, for which Parliament sets the salary. It is the Minister who must bear the responsibility for ensuring that public policy is put into operation. The traffic is not one way. Every Governor's Speech, every Budget speech, every speech made by a Minister when he cuts a tape to open something or other eulogizes the magnificent works of the Government. No one else gets a look-in. It would be hopeless for a local member of Parliament, particularly a Labormember, to attempt to butt into the p'roceedings to obtain some kudos. At any function, all the local member can do is move a motion of' thanks to the Minister for attending to cut the tape. When something is done to the satisfacNon of the pubHcwhich would be accidental -with the present Government-all the credit is taken by the Government; the office boy is not mentioned. But, despite the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility, when the Minister fails to do something because he did not have the plain common sense to administer his Department properly, he will not accept the blame. What sort of constitutional doctrine is it that a Government does not accept responsibility for its inactivity, its inefficiency or its bungling?

The position is worse because one of the doctrines of constitutional responsibility is that a Minister must exercise his jurisdiction without any persuasion of an improper character from outside influences. He must not only administer his Department in that way; it is equally important that he must appear to do so. But this Government could not care less about the story of Caesar's wife; so long as it has the numbers, it does

not mind what its Ministers do. Unfortunately, today Ministers of the Crown in Victoria accept positions in public companies, which is a complete reversal of :the British doctrine that a Minister shall not hold any outside office which may conflict with his public duty. It is not laid down that the outside office must conflict with his public duty; the criterion is whether it may conflct with it. That doctrine is adhered to by the Mother of Parliaments, the British Parliament-still possibly the best Parliament of all-and other Parliaments in Australia, but the Victorian Government evades it.

There has been the spectacle of a Minister flying to another country to carry out private business. At one time, the Minister for Local Government was in a similar position. He knows that no one would want to cast personal reflections on him; however, it is improper for any conflkt of duUes to be possible. The Minister for Local Government resigned his outside offi'ce, and every other Minister who holds a directorship in a public company of any kind should resign if it is possible that the holding of that office could conflict with the exercise of his Ministerial powers.

On two recent occasions legislation relating to oil was criticized in this House. I then estimated that the Government was making a gift worth between $3,000 million and $4,000 million to private interests. At that time it appeared that my estimate was not far out, but now it is probable that the value of the gift will exceed even that estimate. The Government has passed control of oil to its big, rich friends. It looks after BHP, Alcoa, Esso and other large companies, with very happy results for them. That is not the standard of conduct which a Government should display. It should not be protecting the interest of shareholders; it should look after the public interest.

The abattoirs at Flemington have re,cently been in the news because the Melbourne City Council has decided

358 Consolidated I COUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

to lease them to a private firm. This undertaking has been under public control for many yeats. The Meat Industry Com'mittee, appointed by the Victorian Parliament, has already reported that the abattoirs should be controlled by a statutory authority. What announcement has the Government made of its intentions, or has it made a decision at all? All we get from the Government and its supporters is silence on whether this meat undertaking, which has been a public enterprise for years, is to be handed over to private enterprise. When the Meat Industry Committee was appointed, the Minister of Agriculture was most eulogistic because he thought it would do wonderful work in sorting out the problems associated wi,th his Department. That committee has made certain recommendations concerning the city abattoirs, and I should like to know whether they are to be retained as a public enterprise or whether they are to be handed over as a gift to some of the friends of the Government.

Mr. Gleeson appears to be most happy that I have raised this matter because he is a member of the Meat Industry Committee. Even if my few words do not impress the Government, surely the force of argument and knowledge behind the recommendations of the committee of which Mr. Gleeson is a member should convince it. Members of my party know that they do not have the numbers tonight to do what they would like to do, and that is more the pity from the point of view of this State. In the thirteen years during which the Liberal Party has been in office this State has got deeper and deeper into the administrative morass and the financial mire. Sir Percy Byrnes has referred to that aspect on many occasions and has said that the time is ripe for the financial affairs of this State to be put in order. Instead, the State is getting deeper and deeper into interest and capital redemption payments, and deficits are being brought down in every direction. When will there be a change of


Government that will clean up the financial affairs of this State and get away from the maladministration and lack of care and responsibility with which Victoria is at present burdened?

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-This Supply debate has taken a peculiar turn since the Leader of the House was permitted to make his secondreading speech on it by leave earlier today. Mr. Galbally then said that he would not accept the responsibility of refusing leave because he would be accused of not allowing the public servants to receive their pay. I listened attentively to his remarks in which he castigated the Government because of the failure of the Minister of Public Works to administer his Department properly. He was followed by my Leader, Sir Percy Byrnes, in much the same vein; probably Sir Percy was not quite as forceful but he was just as sincere. Mr. Merrifield has turned the tables, so to speak, and now it appears that the responsibility for refusing the public servants their wages has been dropped into the laps of members of the Country Party. The Labor Party has decided to oppose Supply and in that regard is seeking the support of the Country Party, when earlier Mr. Galbally said that he would not take that action. I have seen two Governments thrown out of office because Supply has been refused. I was a member of one Government and I helped throw the other Government out. On both occasions substantive motions were put forward and reasons were given why Supply should be refused. We knew what the numbers were, and it was only a matter of talking until the axe fell. My Leader has declared the position of members of my party. We will not refuse Supply on this occasion because we believe that this is not the time to do so and that the issues raised by members of the Labor Party are not those on which the Government should be


deprived of the ability to handle the affairs of this State in the forthcoming few months.

We are none the less emphatic in our views on the administration of Departments. The Minister of Public Works has been reported as having said that his duty was to carry out policy and not administration. That is a deplorable statement for any Minister to make, and if that is in fact the position in which the Minister finds himself, that state of affairs is also deplorable. One would hope that the Minister did not make that statement, but it appears as though he did. If each Minister were to say that he was not responsible for the administration of his Department, to whom would we look for the administration of the various Departments? I know from experience that one sometimes has difficulty in getting the information one wants by going to the top of the tree; quite often the information is obtained from someone further down the scale who is doing some hard work behind the scenes. However, ultimately the responsibility comes back to the Ministerial head of the Department, and I believe that that is where it should always remain. Members of my party do not share the view expressed by the Minister of Public Works, but this is probably not the right occasion to debate that matter. We regret that it has been debated tonight because we may be placed in the position of not being able to debate it and vote on it on another occasion. In my opinion, the Government should be castigated for the failure of the Minister of Public Works to administer his Department, and the Minister should be taken to task for making the statement he did.

Many facets of Government administration can be discussed during this debate, and I want to voice my opinion on several matters of administration for which the Government is responsible. I refer first to a problem which has become a burning question in country areas during the past few weeks, namely, whether or

not there is to be a continuance of drought relief. At a meeting of 47 municipalities at Horsham recently, a resolution was carried requesting the Premier to make representations to the Federal Government for the purpose of continuing drought relief for another six months. Whether six months was the right period, or whether that was the period the Premier put to the Federal Government, I am not in a position to say, but it is a tragedy that drought relief has been term ina ted.

Throughout Victoria, in the vicinity of 1,300 people were employed by municipalities and Government Departments in various categories of drought relief work. In the first instance, they were carrying out a worth-while service for the,mselves by getting sustenance to enable them to carryon until they were able to earn money as primary producers ; in the second instance, they were providing a service to the community. If the figures were properly analysed, it would be found that Government Departments were getting the larger share of the money provided for drought relief. Now that this scheme has been discontinued, there will be a vast army of unemployed throughout the State who will have to go on social service benefits. They will get only half as much as they were getting before, but they will not have to work for it. This seems to me to be a foolish way of handling an unemployment situation. Surely the scheme could have been phased out in some way to overcome the difficulties associated with its sudden cessation. In some country towns, a total sum of $3,000 or $4,000 a week was being paid to unemployed persons in the area, and this meant a great deal to the business people. Overnight these payments have been stopped, and some business people will have to payoff their staff, which will lead to further unemployment.

This Government has made great capital out of what has been done by way of drought relief, but I remind


the House that it has cost the Government nothing. All the money for drought relief was provided by the Federal Government. In his Budget speech, as published in the press, the Premier and Treasurer accused the Commonwealth Government of being Shylocks and moneylenders. In my view, in regard to financial matters generally, the Government of this State has been no less Shylock-like than the Federal Administration. Certain moneys were made available to the State for drought relief, and this Government decided to take 3 per cent. of some of this money for administrative purposes. It was not prepared to carry the administrative costs of the scheme. This meant that the Government actually got something for itself out of the drought relief scheme. I believe a more effective proposal would have been for the Government to say that it was prepared to carry some of these people on drought relief work for a month or two until the position improved. Then they could have been gradually phased out instead of them all being thrown on to the labour market on the one day. In my opinion, the Government has taken a foolish action which will have a serious effect throughout the country areas of Victoria.

I do not know what the Premier intends to do because he has made no statement on the subject. Apparently he is prepared to see all of these people thrown on to the labour market and become a vast army of unemployed. There is certainly no possibility that they will be absorbed in other work in country towns at present. The State should have accepted some responsibility, because the Federal Government provided in the vicinity of $10,000,000 or $11,000,000 for this purpose and has therefore played its part. It might have been worth while for the State Government to have considered spending $1,000,000 to phase out the scheme over a short period. Instead of claiming all the credit for what has

The Hon. I. A. Swinburne.

been done, it should be ashamed of the way in which it has administered the scheme.

The important subject of the development of country areas of Victoria has been debated in this House so often that it is possible that some honorable members have become bored with it. The Government is continuing the policy o.f doing very llittle to assist the development of Vktorian count'ry areas. Unless lit is hidden somewhere in the Supply schedule, I can find nothing to suggest that industries which are trying to develop .in the country areas w:ill receive assistance. Since 1965, the New South Wa'les Government, whioh has devised a scheme to assist industries throughout New South Wales, has proVlided an amount 'Of $11,000,000 for this purpose.

I was a,mazed to read a newspaper report of a speech made by the Mini'ster for Looal Government when he was opening a conference 'On halanced development lin Melbourne. According to the 'report, he 'a'ecused the Commonwealth of not tak,ing any interest dn .this vital ·matter. Other State Governments have accepted the proposition that many ·avenues exist by which they can assist 'country industI'lies ·without blam;jng the Commonwealth. I realize that the Commonwealth probably does little about the matter, but I do not expect everything from the Commonwealth or suggest that we should seek assistance from the Federal Government every time we are in trouble. If this were done, we might as well wipe out the States. Admittedly, there are avenues in which the Commonwealth can assist the States.

The newspaper report .to which I referred earlier contained no 'mention of the State Government's giving assistance. There are many ways in which the State can assist. I repeat that since 1965 the New South Wales Government has provided a total sum of $11,000,000 for direct assistance for industries in decentralized areas, but


only a paltry amount has been allocated by this Government to help decentralized industries.

Because he does not seem to have enough work to fill in his time iin this sphere, the Minister of State Development lis also the Minister lin charge of tourism and national parks, and more often than not acts as assistant to the Chief Secretary. He could be occupied full time as Minister of State Development if he were given a little financial assistance.

A committee which investigated the question of decentralization produced a report recommending that a major effort should be made in five cent'res, but no action has been taken. Not one forceful or concrete project has been started by the Minister or by the Government to assist any industry in any of one of those five centres. If this haphaz.ard approach continues, it moight be possible to enable the Minister "Of State Development t'O assist the Minister of Public work,s to reorganize the Public Works Department. He would be better employed in that way than sitting in his office doing nothing. If his staff were transferred to the Public Works Department, it might be possible for further works to be 'carried out ,at country s'ch-ools-if the Minister .of Education gave his consent, which lis ha'rd to obtain at times.

If country ·areas are to be developed, lit -is of no use telling meetings of 'interested people that the falilure to furnish assistance is the fault of the Federal Government. The State Government can ass-ist in ,many ways to develop industries in ·country areas. The sooner the Govem'ment administers its Departments properly, applies some forthright thinking to planning for the future, ,and puts less blame on to others, the sooner the country areas in Victoria will be developed.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province).-I w·as a ltittle loth to rise, because I thought the House would hear 'at least one speaker on

the GO'vem!ment side. I thought perhaps the Government might have had full confidence in lits ,case, :and that more of ,its members would be present in the Chamber.

My Leader has ,ra:ised an issue which, unf.ortunately, had to be fCllised on Supply because Itt is difficult to draft a formative 'motion when the Minister concerned lis in another place. The m·ajor debate on the report of the Com'mittee of PubHc Accounts relaNng to the Public Works Department has taken place in another pl,ace, and it is now the subject of com'ment in this House. I believe that 'it concerns issues ,and not personalities. This Government has become so smug and arrogant that frequently it completely ignores Parliament, and M'inisters who attend luncheons and sim:ilar funcNons make policy stratements :of 'magnitude, ,whkh should be debated in ,parlia:ment. On a number of occ-asions, the Government has been castigated for this practice.

When it was learned in places outside of Parliament that certain Ministers held directorships in companies, the Opposition told the Government that this practice had been condemned. My Leader pointed out when the matter was debated, that this practice is not followed by any Administration other than the Victorian Government. The Premier says, "So what! ", leans back arrogantly, and asks whether any member can point a finger of scorn at any individual Minister. That is not the point at issue; it is the principle that matters. In the Federal Parliament, when Sir Robert Menzies learned that a particular Minister held a directorship he was instructed to resign his portfolio. I am certain that Sir Robert had no cause to doubt the honesty of the Minister whom he asked to resign. It is not that justice must always be done, but that it must always appear to be done, and so the integrity of Parliament must be protected. However, this Government must be different. . These practices take place only In a country where a system of preferentiall voting operates, as a


result of which a little boy in the middle of the Isee-saw controls the balance of power. If tbis had not been the case, the Government would have been swept off the Treasury bench eleven years ago-it m:ight have returned to power in the inteflimand that might have been good for the State. Because it has remained in power for 5,0 long, the Government has hecome smug ,in 'its ·adm'inistratiOon and has ·allO'wed 'certain practices which are subject to the most severe criticism to continue.

Appr.oximately five yea'fs ago, shortly ,after I was e,lected to this place, I criticized the Education Department for its purchase for $88,000 of land on which to build a school which was one degree off a straight line with the north-south runway at Essendon aerodrome, despite a ,report bytJhe Department of Civ/il Aviati'On that the area should not be occupied but sh'Ould be reserved for open spaces. When I perused the fi'le, I ,found that when the report wa's received from the Department .of Civil Aviation the file was endorsed that it was tOoo late because the land had been purchased. There was no c'O-o'rdination between the Education Department and the PubHc Works Department. The land still remains idle.

At the Hme, I stressed that ther,e was need .for the appointment of 'a l,iaison officer, and I believe the report of the Committee Qf Public Accounts has emphasized the necessity for 'Such an appointment. There is a ,loack of lia.ison between ,client Departments and the Public W'O~ks Department in relati'On to works, and this of course increases costs.

I have 'also rai,sed previously grants to the Victo~ia Promotion Trust Fund. The Treasurer has special PQwers to' m'ake grants, and in the Estimates for the current year, a grant of $200,000 wi'll be ,made to' -the Vktoria Promotion Committee. Last year, the committee received $160,000. It received allocations in each of the previous financial years dating hack to 1955. The committee has published books similar to that which I now

The Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

display, and I am grateful to Sir Maurice Nathan for providing this excellent publication. However, the propaganda centres around Sir Henry Bolte and Sir Maurice Nathan. On the question of promoting Victoria, I point out that not one industry listed in this publication, perhaps with the exception of Courage Brewery, has come to this State since the Victoria Promotion Committee came into being.

T.oday, in answer to a question, the Minister of Educati'On stated that a sum of $75,000 would be necessary to ,s.atisfy the requests for subsidies for buHdings 'and equipment by sohools fo·r whioh subsidies have been rejected. It would have been better for that sum to be ajlooated by way of a special grant from the Treasury than to allocate $200,000 to the Victoria Promotion Committee for the publication of booklets to which T have referred.

On a previ,ous occasion, the Victoria Promotion Com'm:ittee produced anotJher glossy publoicat1ion listing what was available to over.selas industfiies considering operating in this State. This .jnformat~on can be provided by the Division of State Development for nothing. The committee attempted to sen that publication for $6.30 per book. I do not think many copies were sold, and finaUy each member of Parliament was presented with a copy of the book with the compHments :O'f the Victor.ia P.romoti.on Committee, but that did not m,ake ·me overlook the waste of money that had occurred.

The Minister is responsible fOor policy in many instances. The Labor Party believes that the policy could be better ·administered than it is being administered at present. If a proper system 'Of vot~ng operated in Vktoria, the present Government would not be in office. The GQvernment lis so smug on the matter of housing that it is prepared to marry slum reclamation with high density housing and those who are urgently in need of rental accommodation, with disastrous results. Only families with five or more

Consolidated [1 OCTOBER, 196B.] Revenue Bill. 363

children can obtain rental housing in single-unit accommodation because not one single-unit house has been built in Victoria for rental for about five years.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-That is applicable to· the metropolitan area.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That is so.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-There are homes available in country areas.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I agree. I regret that homes are vacant in country areas because we wish the population to go there.

The Hon. M. A. CLARK'E.-You could not get a vacant home in my province.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.There are vacant houses at Morwell. I have at least fifteen files in my bag concerning people who are urgently in need of accommodation. One family, in which there are six children, 'is living in a home which has been condemned, and nothing can be done to assist them. They cannot obtain a house from the Housing Commission. I do not blame the Minister of Housing for this situation because he cannot make a house available for this family until another family with six children vacates one. I have approached most estate agents in Ascot Vale, and contacted friends of mine in estate agencies in Brunswick and Essendon, and was surprised and horrified to learn that before a person can rent a house in these areas he must deposit $100, not as key money but as a guarantee in case the tenant causes damage to the house.

Many people in my electorate, which embraces Fitzroy and Brunswick and other depressed areas, are urgently in need of low-cost housing, but the only types of accommodation available are single bedroom, motel-type houses or flats for which the rental is at least $17 or $IB a week, or two-bedroom homes or floats for which a rental of at least $23 a

week is asked. There is no shortage of accommodation of this type, but a man who is bringing home only $36 a week with which to keep himself, his wife and five children cannot pay such high rentals; he needs accommodation for which the rental is in the vicinity of $12 to $] 5 a week. The Government is not sympathetic to the plight of these people because it knows that it will be returned to office. Although the Government polls only 36 per cent. of the total number of votes, because of preferences from the Country Party and the Democratic Labor Party-now, it is even getting my party's preferences-the people could not get rid of Sir Henry Bolte if they wished to do so.

Unfortunately, because of this fact, all the principles associated with British democracy can be swept aside by the Government and, when the Premier is accused of anything, he simply replies, " So what!" Because my party does not have the numbers in this House, we can simply wring our hands or speak as I am now speaking and bring these problems to the attention of the Government, and I hope the public. I do not intend to take anything away from Ministers in this House, all of whom have done their best to assist me when I have raised individual cases with them. However, if no homes are available, accommodation cannot be provided for urgent cases, and if there is no hospital accommodation available, beds for needy cases are unavailable. I support everything that my Leader and Deputy Leader have said. It is not a question of a Minister being wrong; we are simply saying to the Government, "Will you carry out the principles that have been established for over 100 years of British democracy under which the voice of the people is able to be expressed without fear or favour through its Government?" If the Government is prepared to give an assurance along those lines, I shall be prepared to accept it because, after all, the Government has the numbers. Some day, of course, it will not have


the numbers and the balance of power will go the other way. I warn the Government that it should observe the principles that have been established for more than 100 years.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province). - The debate on Supply enables honorable members to voice their opinions concerning the maladministration of Government Departments and the inefficiency of the general administration by Ministers of their Departments. During the debate tonight, many illustrations have, been propounded of the various inefficiencies and lack of control that are evident at present. In recent years, the situation has been illustrated by the demands of strong organizations, such as the State Electricity Commission, seeking the establishment of satellite towns at the expense of other towns that need natural development. This has taken place despite the pleas advanced by the members of Parliament representing the areas and the fact that the people, shire councils and organizations in the localities concerned have voiced their opinions against these proposals.

One of the best illustrations of how an administration can go wrong occurred about three years ago when I made a plea for Government assistance for social workers. In doing so, I explained to the House that a social worker group was operating in the Warragul and Drouin areas in association with the West Gippsland Hospital. The two shires and the hospital contributed on an equal basis towards the cost of this work. However, the social work was being done so well and was in such demand that the cost involved became a strain on the shires and the hospital. The material benefit which was derived from this association was such that it merited the consideration of the Government to provide some financial assistance.

All sorts of excuses were put forward why this could not be done, but when I pointed out to the

then Minister of Housing that a certain shire was already receiving such assistance I was told that this was being provided on an experimental basis, and I accepted the honorable gentleman's assurance in this regard. The following year, when I again raised the matter, I was told that the Minister thought he did not have the constitutional powers to pursue this much further. It has since been brought to my notice that an amount of money is still being allocated to the shire concerned, which illustrates that this type of assistance has become an established fact. I should like to know from which fund the money is allocated and who is responsible for the allocation.

There is a great need for providing financial assistance of this type, and honorable members are entitled to know from what source the money is being made available. The allocations should be based on a broad principle rather than simply being made to one municipality. If the Government can give an indication that it is prepared to do this, even if only on a municipal basis through grants to municipal councils which accept the responsibility for social welfare work, I shall be happy to accept it on that basis. I do not think it is fair that an experiment should be conducted in one area at the expense of other areas. I hope the Government will note that the position is being watched closely.

I believe the Government ought to be doing more to provide relief to handicapped or retarded children. I appreciate that the Helping Hand Association is doing excellent work in this field. On a number of occasions, I have requested the Minister of Health to make available hostel accommodation for handicapped 'ch'ildren. I have even gone so far as to say that I would accept it on a regional basis. Unfortunately, the Minister's reply has been to the effect that it is not the policy of the Social Welfare Branch or the Mental Health Authority to group different types of handicapped children together. It was not my intention that the different


types of handicapped children should be placed together in one hostel, but surely it should be possible to provide hostel accommodation so that, for a period of two weeks or three weeks each year, handicapped children could be properly cared for while their parents enjoyed a holiday. It should be possible by means of a roster system to allow the same types of handicapped children to be accommodated together at the one time. This would work successfully, and I hope further consideration will be given to my suggestion.

I wish now to refer to the development of the natural gas pipeline and the expenditure incurred in connexion with it. Many problems are associated with this project, and there has been much shelving of responsibility. I was always opposed to the establishment of the Victorian Pipelines Commission. I am opposed not to the personnel of the Commission but to the obvious duplication of administration. On many occasions I have sought information from the Commission and I have been informed that if I seek information from the Gas and Fuel Corporation I will be supplied with it. However, whenever I have approached the Corporation I have been told that the officers in charge will give me the information.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-The Gas and Fuel Corporation has limited powers of administration.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-I agree, but that is only because it has been kept short of finance and has never been allowed to expand.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-That is not true.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Order! Mr. Hewson is entitled to make his speech in silence without interjection from Mr. Thom.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-There are too many bosses on the pipeline construction project, each one trying to prove that the other one is wrong. This irritates landowners and increases the costs of the contractor

which, in turn, means added expense to the taxpayers of the State. I have watched this work closely and, although I have no desire to embarrass anybody, the time has come when I must say something on the question. I have had many consultations with the men in charge of the job, and the bank manager in charge of the contractor, all of whom have expressed disappointment concerning the job. I feel compelled to direct these matters to the attention of the Government and to express my point of view in relation to them.

This is a very important project, which will bring prosperity to this State, but it is a pity that it has been handled in this way. Many "brass hats" were employed by the various organizations in charge, and to make sure that they w·ere doing the job properly experts were brought in, and they tried to prove that the other experts were wrong, so that the whole procedure was quite a muddle. As a member of the Country Party in this House, I am entitled to' take an independent view of the position and to express my opinion. This debate affords an opportunity for honorable members to highlight m·atters which they believe need correction.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister fO'r Local Government) .-It is time that someone spoke from this side of the House. As Mr. Swinburne is looking sleepy, at this point I shall reply to some of his comments on decentralization. The honorable member referred to a press report of some remarks I made a week or two ago when opening a conference on decentralization conducted by the Adult Education Council and the League for Balanced Development. I wish to make it clear that my theme on that occasion was what local government could do to assist decentralization. Local government has many powers which are being exercised more and more to great effect in various parts of the State. Towards the end of my


remarks at the conference, I reminded those present that the recent Committee on Decentralization has recommended various ways in which the Federal Government could help. There were five points, all of which are solely within the province of the Federal Government. The committee reco'mmended that approaches should be made to the Federal Government to ass-ist decentralization by these means.

Without going into detail, one recommendation was that a complete survey should be m'ade of airport facilities throughout the country districts of the State to ensure that country towns and cities were served by good airports, with the most reliable and up-to-date service. Of course, this is a Federal Government responsibility.

Secondly, the committee recommended that the Federal Government, through the PostmasterGeneral, should be asked to' adjust charges for telephone and telegraph services to decentralized industries, so that they paid the same rates as if they were located in Melbourne. As honorable members are aware, very large telephone and telegraph accounts are a serious deterrent to the establishment of country industries. The suggestion that they should be made part of the metropolitan area for this purpose was very sensible.

The third proposition was that the Commonwealth should be asked to use its income tax powers to ass1ist decentralized industries to become established in country districts. The fourth proposal related to deoreciation allowances on buildings. The last recommendation was that the Commonwealth Government should be asked to locate its migrant centres outside the metropolitan area.

Each of these five matters is a Federal responsibility, and if adopted each would play a valuable part in assisting decentralization. Up to date, we have not received a favourable response to any of these proposals. I told the conference, and I am sure Mr.

The Hon. R. J. Hamer.

Swinburne would join with me, that it was a pity that, although the Commonwealth Government was obviously interested in decentralization on a national scale and in promoting decentralization in Queensland and north-western Australia, that Government had not shown the same interest in promoting decentralization within Victoria or New South Wales, or indeed any other State.

1ihe Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Give the House a list of the measures being taken by the State Government.

The Hon. R. J. HA'MBR.-The newspaper report covered only the last three or four minutes Q,f an address which lasted about half-anhour. The address itself was only part of a wide field of discussion. Mr. Swinburne and I do not need to differ in giving support to these approaches to the Commonwealth Government.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.--'Let us make some progress in our own sphere. I do not oppose what you have done, but want to know what you told the conference the State Government was doing.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-I think we should pull together on ,this. An examination of the question of industry being located outside the metropolitan area leads to the conclusion that what is required above all is a positive financial incentive. Primarily that financial incentive is in the hands of the Commonwealth Government through its taxation powers.

The Hon. ,I. A. SWINBURNE.-I do not agree with the Minister. I think there is plenty of scope for action through instrumentalities in Victoria.

The Hon. R. J. H.A:MER.-The most effective power is exercised by the Commonwealth in the imposition of taxation, particularly company tax and pay-roll tax. One of the main instruments used by the Federal Government to promote exports has been manipulation of the pay-roll tax. I believe something like that could also assist decentralization.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (IMinister of Education) .---'1 wish to speak in defence of the Honorable


Murray Por.ter, whom I regard as a highly competent Minister of Public Works, as well as a man of high integrity. There are two aspects that I should like to discuss briefly-first, the question of the responsibility of a Minister and, secondly, the comments made in the report of the Committee of P.ublic Accounts. Incidentally, this co.mmi ttee was set up by the present Government in 1955 for the purpose of scrutinizing the expenditure of public moneys.

First, I shall deal with the question of Ministerial responsibility. I do. not think there is a great deal of difference between the views of the other parties and those o.f the Go.vernment on this important question. The Government readily agrees that a Minister is and should be responsible for the general poHcy and general administratio.n of his Department.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Why do you no.t put your views into practice?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.There are restrictive factors. At one time Mr. Galbally was a highly efficient Minister of the Crown, from a personal point of view, but he would be the first to admit that many of the difficulties he experienced with the State Electricity Commission were due to factors outside his control in those days. So far as administration is concerned, certain restrictive factors apply to all Government Dep'artments, particularly the Public Works Department, as Mr. Galbally hinted earlier this evening. The staffing of the Public Works Department is the responsibility of the Public Service Board. In private industry, if the managing director wants A to control marketing, B to control production and C to control organization, A, Band C are appointed within a week and that is the finish of it. However, in the case of a public Department the Public Service BQiard is responsible for making appointments Df staff. The nomination may be made by the secretary of the Department, and the Minister may have some small s'ay in suggesting

that one man might be more suitable than ano.ther, but the final decision is made by the 'Public 'Service Board.

It is interesting to. note that for the financial year 1967-68, 43 per cent. of the appointments recommended by the head of the Public Works Department were not made by the Public Servke Board. In other wo.rds, appeals against the nominee of the departmental head were successful in 43 per cent. of the cases. The average in the whole of the Public Service was only 15 per cent. I believe the m'ain reason was that the head Qif the Department was trying to prDmote young, promising and talented persons to positions of authority in the Department. This is what the Minister Df Public Works was saying when he pointed out there were certain restrictions on the degree to which he could administer the Department from the staffing side.

I should also like to stress that the majority of the recommendations made in t'he report of the Committee of Public Accounts have already been carried out by the Public Works Department and by the Minister, or are in process of being carried out. Indeed, the only one that I can recall which is not in either of those two categories is one with which I know that the Minister does not personally agree. It is a rather minor matter, namely, that notification should be given to all tenderers of the details of tender prices following acceptance of a tender. I know that there would be some considerable oppositiDn from people in the contracting field if this confidential information were to be supplied to all tenderers by the Public Works Department. This is the Dnly recommendation of the com,mittee which has not already been implemented or is in the process of being implemented.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.What you are suggesting is that all the failures of the IMinister to assume Ministerial responsibility ought to be vested in the Committee of Public Accounts.

368 Consolidated I COUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON .---iI am nQlt suggesting that at all. I am pointing out that, generally speaking, the report is favourable to the reform meaSures already adopted by the Public Works Department. The committee has supported the positive measures that have been taken and believes they are necessary for the efficient running of the Dep·artment. It is a large Department, which is difficult to administer, beoause it has 24 other Departments and branches as clients. To give some indicatiDn Df the Department's respo.nsibilities, it spends something like $60,000,000 per annum; it receives about 30,000 requisitions per annum; it issues 39,500 wDrk Drders per annum; and it receives 20,000 orders for supply per annum. The Department is one of the biggest construct,ion authorities in Australia.

Let us examine the recommendations of the Committe of Public Accounts one by one. The first related to' selective tendering. The cDmmittee, generally speaking, reCDmmended a system of registration and selection Df tenders. This system has been tried with success in Great Britain and has been investigated in great detaH by the Building Industry Consultative Council, which is chaired by the Minister of Housing. In April this year, on the recommendation of the Minister of Public Works, Cabinet gave the green light to the implementation of a system of registration and selection of tenderers designed to eliminate the flyby-night operator and to ensure that tenderers whO' are accepted fDr jobs are financially capable of oarrying out the wDrk as well as being capable from a cDnstruction point of view. In England evidence suggests that under this system jobs are more effectively carried Dut and more rapidly completed, and with fewer financial breakdDwns. Recently the New South Wales Public Works Department instituted the Same system.

I believe Dne factor that made the Victorian Public WDrks Department hesitate befo.re introducing the system was the fact, highlighted by the Committee of Public Accounts, that assistance of this type CDuid militate against small tenderers endeavouring to enter the field. Nevertheless, the experience of Great Britain and New SDuth Wales justifies the intrDductiDn Df this system and the GDvernment expects that next month tenderers will be graded and a new system of registratiDn of tenderers introduced, particularly fDr the larger cDntracts, but also for the middle-sized contracts.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.~Is the Melbourne and ,MetrDpDlitan BQlard of Works doing this?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Yes, the Board's engineer, Mr. RobertSDn, who ,is a keen advocate o.f this system, represents the Board on the Building Industry Consultative CDuncil. I have no dDubt that its introductiDn by the Public WDrks Department will be justified. The question of variations of contract was first 10Dked intO' by the head of the PubHc Works Department in April, 1967, and the attention of other Departments was drawn to the fact that in many Cases contracts were proving more costly because of variatiDns which might have been justified but which, in the light of the additional expense, were perhaps no.t justified in the final analysis. SDme mDnths ago a conference waS called with the EducatiDn Department, and instructiDns were issued that, except in exceptional circumstances, no variatiDns were to' be made.

It is interesting to note that a firm Df public administratiDn cDnsultants Df internatiDnal repute was engaged at the end of last year, but the decisiDn to' interest this firm in the Public Works Department of Victoria was taken as early as May, 1967. Its first report is expected shortly, and the second and final report will be brought down in fifteen Dr eighteen months' time.


The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Will that report be made public?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.-I should imagine so.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Will you give an undertaking to' that effect?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.My undertaking will be given by the Minister concerned at the appropriate time. It is important to note that this expert firm in the field of public administration was invited to investigate the affairs of the Public Works Department as long ago as May of last year. It is common knowledge that the efficiency of many private business and industrial organizations has been greatly increased as the result of investigations and reports by a number of these public administration firms. The Government sees no reason why the same approach should not be made in the case of a Department which carries out most of the construction work for the Government.

The Committee of Public Accounts referred favourably to the introduction of a new system of deposits. Previously large sums of money were unduly held until contracts were completed. The Minister of Public Works and the Secretary of the Department were not completely satisfied with this system and, as a result of complaints, they changed it to a system under which there was a 6 per cent. retention, which in the view of the Committee of Public Accounts will prove an effective reform.

An exhaustive and exact system for the carrying out of contracts was recommended by the Committee of Public Accounts. The " critical path" planning system as recommended at page 30 of the report was used in all major contracts carried out by the Public Works Department in the past two years. This system is also used in New South Wales. Recently in

Session 1968.-15

that State the Government installed computers more effectively to undertake systems of this type, and no doubt this aspect will be considered by the Victorian Public Works Department.

It is interesting to note that in the educational field, last year an Educational Architectural Branch was formed by the Department to: adopt a new approach to the construction of new schools. I pay tribute to the expert personnel of that Branch from the Public Works Department and from the Education Department who contributed the new ideas, arising from which an entirely new type of high school has been built. It is revolutionary in design and implements to a large degree the suggestions of practising teachers in the field.

Conditions of contract are also under close scrutiny. Last year, it was felt that the time had come to introduce new conditions of contract and that it was probably desirable to: have these as uniform as possible throughout Australia. The Minister of Public Works discussed this aspect at the annual conference of Ministers of Public Works of the various States, and that conference is now in process of drafting a set of uniform contract conditions.

Finally, it was suggested that there could be improved supervision of day labour. Early this year a senior officer was placed in charge of the day-labour force. This officer had particular qualifications for the job, and he is now directly responsible to the assistant chief architect. This system is already paying dividends, and it is the view of the head of the Department that the various sections of the day-labour force are producing far better work on a more careful basis.

Nobody would be foolish enough to suggest that any Department, Minister or even member of Parliament is 100 per cent. efficient. This may be attained for one week, then something may happen in outside industry that necessitates a change in method.


In recent years, the Public Works Department has revised its procedures and policies in the light of modernday developments. More worth-while reforms have been introduced in this Department in the past four years than in the previous 25 or 30 years. For that reason, 1 pay tribute to Murray Porter, the present Minister of Public Works.

The Hon. ARCHmALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) .-1 do not accept all the arguments advanced by the Minister of Education in his endeavours to justify the Public Works Department. If his arguments were soundly based, there would be no necessity for the report of the Committee of Public Accounts that has been bandied around and dissected by all honorable members.

The introduction of Supply affords honorable members the opportunity to examine the record of the Government and to decide whether it is as good as has been claimed, not only in relation to' the Public Works Department but also in regard to its many other sections of administration. The Opposition believes that, because of the time it has occupied the Treasury benches, the Government has become a little indolent. So long as a Department went along without causing too much worry to the Minister, everything in the garden was lovely; when something went wrong and the Department came under fire, the Minister simply shook his hands and said, " There are individuals in the Department for whom I am not responsible. I carry out the Government's policy in regard to that Department and that is where 1 start and finish." The Opposition does not accept that philosophy. Control begins at the top. Parliament is the top; it appoints the Ministers to control the Departments, and they should be responsible for what goes on in their Departments.

It would be easy indeed to' level some form of criticism at the various Departments and complain on the

basis of representations that honorable members have made. However, when a Department is the subject of an extensive inquiry by the Committee of Public Accounts, the Opposition is justified in being rather critical of the work of that Department, and to suggest that it has been a kind of Rip Van Winkle, that it has grown and grown, but that it has not come out of the deep sleep that has enveloped it over the years. There are criticisms in the report which justify the concern of Parliament in relation to Ministerial responsibility, not only in respect of the Public Works Department but in relation to other fields as well.

The Minister of Education referred to management consultants-crystal gazers-that are brought in to glance at the office boy, to say that he has not cleaned his shoes, that his tie is not straight and that if he rectifies these things he will work more efficiently. I do not" go " for management consultants. If the people in the Public Works Department are stirred up enough, they have sufficient intelligence to streamline their methods and to tighten up their controls. If the Government had given proper considera tion to a report brought down some years ago by the Statute Law Revision Committee on the question of the bonding of contractors, it would have found several items which it now claims to favour.

Selective tendering has been mentioned. It is some years since the Statute Law Revision Committee went to New South Wales and heard from the Main Roads Board of the method by which road contractors were kept under control. If a contractor was capable of carrying out a contract of up to $10,000, he could not tender for works involving a higher figure. If a contractor of higher standing was involved, he could tender for a larger job. That system prevented contractors from falling down on their jobs. These matters can be confirmed in the report of the committee.

Consolidated [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Revenue Bill. 371.

It has been said that some of the functions of the Public Works Department could be divorced from its control. The Education Department of New South Wales has its own factory for the production of its furniture requirements. At the beginning of a financial year, the Department knows what it has to produce for the ensuing twelve months. Certain functions of the Public Works Department could be examined and divorced from its control so that the Department would not be a kind of Frankenstein monster which the Minister would have to keep under close scrutiny. The Government should examine these suggestions and spend a little more money on the experts within the Public Service instead of hiring these "jokers" from outside who batten on to the industrial and commercial organizations in Victoria. I repeat that I do not "go" for crystal gazers.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Don't you believe in outside consultants?

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.No; the people employed by the Government should be able to handle their own affairs, and the maney that is spent on these management cansultants cauld be prafitably emplayed elsewhere. It wauld be interesting if hanarable members were tald af the cast af emplaying these firms. Shauld it nat be said that the man at the tap shauld cantral the men directly beneath him and So' be responsible far the affairs within the Department?

I pay a tribute to the day-labour employees af the Public Warks Department who wark at Parliament House. I refer particularly to' some af the men emplayed as painters; they are tradesmen af the best type, and their wark can hardly be improved upan. It has been said that the Public Warks Department is nat able to' engage staff. If it is faund that the terms and canditians of emplayment

are not sufficiently attractive, conditions must be impraved so that it is passible to' campete for labour with peaple outside the service.

The Minister referred to the Public Service Baard, which reminds me that on anather occasion the honorable gentleman informed me that this iniquitaus arganization decided whether the Educatian Department could emplay another persan here ar there. It is time that the ramifications of the Public Service Board were examined, perhaps by the Statute Law Revisian Cammittee, to determine whether it is functianing in the best interests of the State. A bunch of bureaucrats run the Public Service and decide whO' will be appainted to' variaus pasitians. I know that members af the Statute Law Revisian Cammittee, whO' watched the Public Service Baard in operation when the cammittee was investigating the quesHan 'Of appeals, was nat particularly impressed with the Board's methods. It may be apprapriate, an the basis of what the Minister has said, far the cammittee to examine the activities of the Public Service Board and imprave it far the benefit of the State.

The Han. W. M. CAMPBELL.-What abaut the Public Service Act?

The Han. ARCHIBALD TODD.The Public Service Act could be amended quite easily. The Gavernment can take quick actian when it desires to do sa. It did nat take lang to "sink the baat" intO' the" Stark brigade ". I remind the Leader of the Hause that for same time members of aur party have been endeavauring to gain same justice far the cansumer whO' purchases frozen chickens with a water cantent of up to 18 per cent. We have been asking the Minister to' take actian similar to' that taken by ather Gavernments in order to keep the water cantent of chickens dawn to a reasonable level and sa prevent the public fram being rabbed.


There are many avenues with which we are dissatisfied with the Government's performance, and none is more important than the question of public safety. Over the past few years, members of the Opposition have been voices crying in the wilderness for the Government to bring the Police Force up to standard so that the ordinary citizen can move around the streets by night or by day and be assured of proceeding safely to his destination. A stage unparalleled in the history of the State has been reached when women dare not go out at night. We have suggested that policemen should be put back on the beat. The only result we have achieved is a lengthy letter from the Chief Secretary informing us that the present policy is for mobility in the P.olice Force.

I suggest that it would be well worth while examining the number of robberies that have occurred recently in the metropolitan area. I know of one unfortunate 'mercer in the Glen Waverley area who has been robbed on three occasions. In one instance, the police did not arrive for 25 minutes because there was no police station closer to his residence than Oakleigh. Some doubt has now been raised by the insurance company whether it should continue to insure this man's property. Day after day we read of tellers in banks being held up and robbed. Bank officials are agitating for some form of protection which has not been afforded them so far. Criminals travel from suburb to suburb, getting a few hundred dollars here and there 'and stealing cars from various locations, but the strength of the Police Force is not sufficient to cope with the situation. So many men are 'employed in controlling traffic and duties of that nature that an insufficient number remains to ensure public safety.

On a previous 'occasion I referred to the police station at Williamstown, which is a fairly extensive suburb; the Williamstown police district covers a wide area, extending into other suburbs. At a 'certaiIi time of

The Hon. Archibald Todd.

the night the police station is empty because the two policemen are out on patrol. I received a letter from the Chief Secretary informing me that another policeman had been appointed to that station. I did not know which shift he was put on, but more than one additional policeman is needed.

It has been said that sufficient men cannot be obtained for the Police Force. I contend that this situation must be rectified. It is the Government's responsibility to build up the Police Force to a strength commensurate with today's population. It is not good enough to close a police station at certain times, and for a note to be tacked on the door informing the public to return next day or to telephone a certain number for attention. A modem society needs protection. As the popUlation increases, a growth in crime must be expected. If additional thousands of people come into our society there will be bad among the good, and therefore the Police Force must keep pace and be capable of drafting policemen from district to district to cope with new problems. The Government takes the view that it cannot get sufficient men, and that is the end of it. Standards have been reduced to the lowest the Government deems advisable, but again, as in relation to the Public Works Department, conditions under which men are invited to become members of the Police Force should be examined.

I believe the so-called affluent society is a myth. Honorable members who represent the poorer districts of Melbourne realize that there is no affluence in their districts. Mr. Tripovich has referred to the high rentals being charged in certain cases. What does the Government do to control rapacious racketeers and slum landlords who charge $18 or $20 a week for houses from 50 to 100 years old and take advantage of unfortunate people who have large families and are refus·ed accommodation by successive agents? Agents


take it upon themselves to say that they are not prepared to accommodate families with children. No member would bemDre aware of this situation than the Minister .of Education, who was formerly Minister of Housing; he will recall how many members of Parlia'ment pleaded with him on behalf of peDple with large families who were seeking shelter.

The present Government has been in office for thirteen years, but statistics prove that during that time Victoria has been the Mecca for -every land shark and every financial thief. Recently, the representative of a large organization complained that legislation introduced by this Government to make subdividers provide roads, footpaths and other amenities before they sold the land, had increased the price of the land. Certainly that is so, but the purchaser does not have to pay for those amenities again after he moves in. This particular gentleman did not mention the huge profits that his organization has been making out of land development. I wonder how many young people in Victoria have been "hooked" by Hooker. Such gentlemen speak with their tongues in their cheeks when they blame Government legislation for increases in land prices. The cost of land has increased because this Government is afraid to legislate in a 'manner which may smack even to a minor degree of socialism, although many unfortunate people in the community need protection.

I now wish to refer to the rape of the State of Victoria by the EssoB.H.P. organization, aided and abetted by this Govern'ment. This State was presented with the opportunity of becoming financially independent, but the Government, in its indecent haste to conclude 'an agreement with this organization's tycoons, robbed Victoria of millions of dollars in royalties that would have solved the State's school, hospital and other problems.

Matters of this kind WDrry the people of Victoria, and it is unfortunate, that they cannot always make the Government pay for its sins. If the Government had been as ·careful of the needs of the people of Victoria in dealing with Esso-B.H.P. as it was in dealing with the Australian Dairy Produce Board, no tears would be shed today about the price the public will have to pay for petrol.

Our party believes that a Minister is respDnsible for his Department. We do not question the integrity of any Minister, but if he becomes a little careless and matters begin to slump in his Department, I contend that the Minister is responsible. I claim, that if Dr. Farnbach offends people engaged in charity work the Minister is responsible for Dr. Farnbach's misdeeds, if any. If any problems arise in the Local Government Departmen t, the Minister is responsible for them. Being a lawyer, he is trained to be careful. The Minister concerned has to bear the sins of the Education Department, particularly in regard to the purchase of land, and a similar situation applies to the Leader of the House in relation to the Department of Agriculture. He is responsible for what Dr. Wishart and his subordinates do ; if they blunder, the Minister has to pay the piper.

Members of our party are justified in saying that the report of the Committee of Public Accounts calls for a thorough investigation .of the Public Works Department, with a possible recommendation that ,certain sections of the Department should be divorced from it. For instance, the Ports and Harbors Branch could be closer to the Melbourne Harbor Trust and other authorities assDciated with the ports. That is my .opinion, althougn it may not be that of my party.

Therefore, I move-That all .the words ,after .. That" be

omitted with the view of inserting in: place .thereof the words .. as the Government has refused to acknowledge the principles of Ministerial responsibility this House refuses for the present to grant the Supply sought ".

374 . Consolidated [COUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-.. ,J second the amendment.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne N'Orth Province) .~In supporting this amendment it should be realized that the report we are debating tonight uncDvered Pandora's box. The P.ublic Works Department has let the side down. The Minister of Public Works must take responsibility fDr that and ought to resign or retire, whichever he prefers.

Late in the evening the Minister of Education saved this House from the humiliation of not hearing from the Gove·mment in connexion with thi·s grave charge, but his apprOiach was a rather curious Dne. He said that the Minister of Public Works was a man of great integrity, but I point out that his integrity has nOit been questioned. The ,Minister of Education went on to' com·mend him for his work - a striking phrase, one might think, in view of the condemnation of his Department. It is indeed striking for one Minister to be patting another on the back in these circumstances but, after all, they are members of the one Government and the same Cabinet. The L'a!bor Party takes the view that it is shocking that a M-inister, under fire, should ShDW such an abys'Inal ignDrance Df his responsibilities as a IM"inister Df the Crown that he would blithely say, " What happens in my Department is really no concern of mine; and, anyhow, it has been going on for years." In his gallant but somewhat misguided attempt to rescue his colleague', the Minister of Eduoation said, " It is not really his fault at all. It is all the fault of the Public Service Board. It appoints staff." 'fhat statement let the cat out of the bag-it was not the 'Minister's responsibility; it was the responsibility of the Public Service Board.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.--iHe did not say that.

The Hon. J. W. GAliBA'liLY ........... What was .the inference to be dra'wn from his rem'arks? What has the Publk Service Board to do with it?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The Minister made that clear.

The Hon. J. W. GA!lJBALL Y.~I could not follow it. The honorable gentleman was defending the Minister of !Public Works and attempting to rescue him by bringing the Public Service Board intO' his argument. There is no other inference to be drawn. Is that nDt the very thing that a responsible 'Minister should not do: blame SDmeone else - the Public Service Board? The Public Service Board cannot defend itself in this House. That is the whole basis of Ministedal responsibility. It is the responsibility of a Minister, not that of the departmental head, the Public Service Board, the Egg Board or anyone else to stand up in Parliament and answer for the administration of his Department, and when there is a departure from that responsibility Parliament is useless because it has no control over the Executive. If a member of the Executive can say" True, I am the Minister, but somebody else did that and I am not responsible for the Public Servi'ce Board", where does 1t end? This has been a bad night for the Parliament of Victoria, for we have seen the Minister of Education adopting an approach to. this matter which really par-allels that which was adopted by the Minister who is under fi·re.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Not quite. The Hon. J. W. GAlJBA'LLY.-Yes,

it does. The Minister of Education said, "The Minister of Public W'orks is a grand man. II admire his wDrk and pay tdbute to' him." How 'can tr1bute be paid to the Minister in the face Df the non-inflammato.ry, c1oselyreasoned, modeflately written report? It is a curious conception of what a Minister's duties and responsibilities are to pay tribute to him. Why should tribute be paid to himbecause he made a fool o.f himself? Me:mtbers of the Labor Party may be in exile in this Chamber, but at least they understand the realities of the P'arliamentary system; ·and it is completely unrealistic for a Minister of


painted pomp, when something 'a~ise:s which may reflect upon him, to say, "It has nothing to' dO' with me; blame the Public Service BGard or anybody else. "

This HDuse Dught to carry the amendment that has been moved by Mr. TDdd. It is true that membe-rs Df the CGuntry Party thDught the attack on Supply was tO'G wide, but it was to meet their well-e~pressed, sensitive !feelings on this issue that my colleague, Mr. vodd, moved the amendment. Sir Percy Byrnes and Mr. Swinburne expressed grave alann at the attitude of the Government towards Ministers Df the CrDwn. That is ran important pDint, and I invite those honorable members and other members o.f the Country Party to join with the Opposi'uiDn in refusing Supply foor the present.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER {Minister of Agriculture).-The amendment mDved by Mr. Todd con1vains the wDrds, "as the Govern'ment has refused ,to' acknDwledge the principles of Ministe~ial responsibility". Those wDrds are not true, for the GDvernment has accepted responsibility and Ministers have accepted responsibHity, whatever the interpretation Mr. Galbally wishes to place on press statements which were made under a particular set Df ciI'lcumstances.

The HDn. J. W. GALBALLY.-Television dDes not lie.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-The Minister has never been Dn television.

The HDn. J. M. TRIPOVICH (to' the Hon. 'R. J. Hamer) .-1 saw him interviewed on television on a news prDgramme.

The Hon. G. L. OHANDLER.---'Mr. Galbally and Mr. Merrifield of the Opposition and Sir Pe-rcy Byrnes and Mr. Swinburne of the Country Party are the only members Df thDse parties in this Cha!mber who have been Ministers. I defy any member .of this Chamber to' say that IMiinisters ;in this House .or in another place do not accept responsibility for their Deparlments. Mr. Galbally 'can bandy words . as much as he wishes 'and place 'any

interpretation upDn the facts, but the amendment includes the words "refuses fDr the present to' grant the Supp1y sought", 'and I ShDUld like to know exactly what is meant by "for the present."

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.----If the amendment is carried, YDU will very quickly find Dut.

The HDn. G. L. OH:A!NDL'ER.-Mr. Galbally has not ehlJbDrated Dn it; he has gone 'Off half-cocked, ·and bas not explained what is me'ant by thDse words.

Ministers of the CrDwn dO' accept responsibHity for their tOepart'ments. They must do sO'. During the period that Sir John Bloomfield was associated with the Education Department, at a time when it was in trouble, it certainly could not be said that he did nDt accept full responsibility. He remained loyal and ·farthful to' every person in the Department through very difficult times, and was a shining example of a ,Minister accepting his responsibilities. Whatever critioism might be levelled against IMinis:ters individually concerning the administration Df their lDepartments, there is not one Minister of the Government who does not a'ccept full responsibility for what happens in his Dep'artmente

Tonight the Minister of Education made a very sound, sensible, CDDI, calm and calculated statement. He analysed all of the recommendations mentioned in the report 'Of the Committee of Public Accounts and wha t action had been taken within the Public Works Department. Mr. Merrifield and Sir Percy Byrnes were at one time Ministers responsible for the administra tion of the Public Works Department. They know that it is a Department which is involved in tremendous expenditure and is one which has been subject to' stress and strain since the days of Mr. Merrifield's colleague, the Deputy Leader of the Labor Party, the late Mr. Shepherd, who was a very good Minister of Educa'tion. Ever since that time


the . Public Works Department has been under grea1t strain in endeavouring to keep abreast of the work which has been asked of it by many Government parties.

Public Service Board is an independent body which lays down the sal'aries that shall be paid. The honorable member should dO' his hom·ework before he speaks.

The Han. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.---II The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-That accepted responsibility. is what we cO'mplain abO'ut; the 'Pub-

'f.he Hon. G. L. CIHA:NDL'ER.-That He Service Board has toO' much power. is so.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-Did the Minister submit any evidence to' the inquiry?

The Hon. G. L. OHANDLE'R.---JMr. Tripovich has already had an opportunity O'f speaking during the debate. I:t is strange that the Government should be accused in the way it has in view of the f.aict that it set up the Committee of Public Accounts to carry out periodical investigations Df Government Departments and to submit reports to' the Parliament. Committees of such a kind are essential for the working of democracy. I recently read a speech made by the late Sir Arthur Warner in 1953, during the period that Mr. Merrifield was Minister of Public Works, and in it he recommended the establishment of a Committee .of Puiblic Accounts to inquire intD the activities of the various Departments.

I defy any member of this Chamber to say that I do not accept responsibility for the Department of AgricuUure, and it is simply not true to say that the Gove.rnment has refused to' acknowledge the principle of Ministerial responsibility. As 'Mr. Merrifield well knows, architects of the Public IWorks Department are called upon to do so much work that it is beyond their cap'acity to' ,cope with it. I say that advisedly. Adequate staff cannot be obtained.

. The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-'f.hat is because they are not paid enough.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-It is obvious that Mr. Cathie does nOit know what he is talking about. 'f.he

The Hon. G. L. CHANiDLER.---JMr. Todd says that now, but I remember that the Dunstan-HoUway Government was defeated on this issue by Mr. Todd's party. The Public Service Board is very powerful, and it is independent.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-It is to'o powerful.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.---Mr. Todd can take up the argument with the Board, if he wishes to do SQ.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-The Board is responsible to' the GO'vernmente

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-The Public Service BO'ard is not responsible to' the GO'vern'ment. It speaks ,to members O'f the Government only through the head of the Premier's Department; it does not speak to' 'Ministers. Honorable members will recall that, nO't very long ago, Mr. East, the chairman of the State R1ivers and 'Water Supply Commission, was critical O'f the Board be,cause he claimed that he cO'uld not retain engineers at the salary be1ing paid.

The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-They were being emp,loyed by anothe.r GO'vernment authority in this 'State. The State Electricity Commission was taking his men.

The Hon. G. L. OHANDLER.-The State Electricity CO'mmission is not under the Public ;Service Board. These are the types of difficulty under which the Public Works Department has been wO'rking. The Minister of Education analysed the report of the Com'mittee of Public Accounts and made a very fair statem·ent to ,the HO'use. In relation to the amendment, I can Dnly say that, if


the m·ajori ty of this House want things that way, that is how they will be. It is purely a matter 'Of numlbers. I rerne,mber a certain honorable gentle'm'an, who sat on this side of the House with Mr. Galbally, saying, " You can have all the logic, give me the numbers." I hope the House will reject the amendment. I should like Mr. Todd to explain what he means by the words " for the present".

Sir PERCY BYRNES (North-Western Province).-Mr. President--

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Stk Percy Byrnes m'ay speak only to the ·amendment.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-Thank you, Mr. President. I have been accused of speaking softly. I was referring to the fact that there are two matters under discussion. One is Supply and the other is Ministerial responsibility. I have stated that the Country Party is not prepared to' refuse Supply at the present time, and I have nO' instruction from my party to' dO' sO'. That statement stands. However, members of the Country Party have very strong opinions about the responsibilities of Ministers. We cannot understand 'why the matters of 'Supply and IMin'isterial responsibility should be joined together. If they had not been, we would have voted to censure the Minister of Public 'Works. On the strength of the report of the Com,m'ittee of Public Accounts, the Min,ister should be censured, but the. Country Party is not prepared to' vote against ISupply, oust the Government, and cause an eleotion. That would be the result if Supply were refused. In any case, I doubt whether the numbers are available to' refuse Supply. I dO' not believe in sham fights. On the right issue, when we have the numbers with us, we may possibly vote to' put the Government O'Ut of office.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD (Doutta Galla Province ).-Sir Percy Byrnes whO' is the Government's best friend tonight, has spDken for the seoond time, and I suppose that I 'may do the s·ame.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-Mr. Merrifield has spok'en to' the motion; he may speak to the amendment.

The Hon. SIAMUBL MBRRIIFII'ELD. -I did not say to what Sir Percy had spoken.

The PrRESIIDENT.-There was an inference in what Mr. Merrifield said.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD •. -Again, we find the Leader of the House excusing the Govern'ment. At least, on this occasion members of the OpPOSition have. smoked out three M-inisters. That is not only a record, H probably equals all other perform'ances put together. The honorable gentleman eulogized the 'Minister of Education who stated that the Minister of Public Works put into effect the recom'mendations of the Committee of Public Accounts, or the recommendations which it subsequently made. It tis obvious that the Minister, who is paid to administer the Department, could not conceive of the necessary remedies until the Committee of Publ:ic Accounts told him what to do.

The Hon. R. J. HAMER.-'f.hat is not right.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRI'FIELD. ~What else could it be? These troubles have been in existence fDr some time, and the Minister did noth-. ing until the Com'mittee of Public Accounts .told him what to do. The Minister of Education blamed the Public Service Boa'rd ,for all the sins of the Public Works Depa~tment. I first point out that the Public Service Board is under the cont~ol O'f a Minister, who is ,the Prem,ier. That is laid down by the Public Service Act.' The Prem'ier can call for all reports on any matter and ask for recom-mendations on almost anything. There is a direct tie with !the Government in the control which the Premier' exercises over the Public Service' Board. Last but not least, any member of the Public 'Service Board may' be removed by Order in CouncH.


In laying the respDnsibility fDr the whole situation, not Dn the Minister of PubHc Works, but on the Public Service Board, I suggest that the Minister of Education justified action by the Government against the Board. But the Govemnlent has done nothing, and it does nDt intend to' dO' anything. It knows that the Public Service Board has acted wi,thin the 'cO'nfines of its own Act. There are also strings attached to the appointment of members of the Public Service which He outside the prDvince Df >the Public Service BO'ard. The Board recommends only the creatiDn Df positions. It then aocepts nomin:ations and approves of and appoints individuals to those positions. It does nDt apprDve of moneys being made available to pay for the positions. The Premier, as Treasurer, controls the number of positions which shall ,exist.

If the Public Works Department did not have sufficient staff to carry out its operations efficiently, the responsibility lay with the Treasurer for not pro.viding the money for additional pos>itions to be created. Therefore, the responsibility which the Minister of Educa'tion said rested with the Public Service' Board aotually resided with the Premier and Treasurer. It has been said that there is a shortage of staff in the 'Public Works Department. A shortage of staff lis com'mon to. mo,stother Departments. There has been a shortage of police and of teachers, as well as many other officers. Positions have been created but not filled because the Premier has issued instructions that the number Df appointments has to' be reduced to keep expenditure dDwn. That is the plain fact, and the GO've'mment knows it.

Therefore, in two ways, as Premier in charge of the Public Service Board, and as Treasurer in oonuol of the number 'Of positions which may be filled, the Pre'miier and T,rea,surer is, in the final analysis, respDnslible ,for the difficulties which exist, so the Minister of Education should not blame the Ipublic Service Board.


It is true that some difficulties atise as ,a result of aotions by the Public Service Board. I can remember some during my term a'S a Minister, and I do not doubt that there have been others, but the BO'ard cannot be blamed for everything. The greatest disabilities of the PubHc Works Department have been 'caused by the control exercised by the Treasurer.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Who finally appoints personnel to the Departm'ent?

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIF~ELD. -The Public Service Board is the appointing body, but it does not appoint persons Ito pDsitions until those positions: have been created, and they are not created until the Treasurer approves.

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.Positions do. not have to be created for replacements.

The Hon. SIAlMUEL MERR!ItFIBLID. -The Board does not appoint people to vacant positions until it receives approval from the Treasurer tOo make the appointments. This Icontrol is felt most particularly when the Treasurer is facing financial stringency. The Minister O'f EducatiQon knQows that the Treasurer's cQontro.l appHes in this way. He has felt the effects Df his 'oontrQoI before, and he must be nDW feeling its effects in the Education 'Department. The Police FQorce has been placed in this position. It had a nominal strength which it could nO't meet because the Treasurer issued an instruction that additional policemen were not to be appointed because he had to find the mDney. In excusing the Govemlment and laying the bl'ame for the troubles in the Public Works Department on the Public Service BQoard, the Minister of Education is merely hiding behind the skirts of the Board.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Yarra Province) .-1 wish to say something in support of the Minister of Public Works. The honorable gentleman was repo.rted in the press


as saying that he was, in fact, responsible for policy and not responsible for the admlinistration of his Department. All honorable members of this House should be made 'aware of what the ,Minister did say. Then they should relate his remarks back to. the Public Serv-ice Act. In his statement the Minister said, in dealing first with the morale of officers in his Department, that the morale was better than it had been for years.

His second point was ·that he, as a Minister, had no power in certain spheres of administration in his Department. He said that he did have full responsibility, however, in t~e policy of his Departm'ent be~ause t~IS was in fact Government polIcy WhICh he had to implement. The honorable gentleman went on to say that nDt only was he restricted in this administrative power but that the permanent head of the Department was similarly restrioted. He stated that neither he nor the permanent head had any real control.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-That is an amazing statement.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-Mr. Todd should listen to what the Minister actually said. He stated that he and the permanent head had no real control and that control was in fact exercised by the Public Service Board. At the time he was referring to day-to-day administration Df his Department, and to. that aspect Dnly. Honorable members should look at his statement dealing with the dayto-day administration of the Departmen t and then turn to. the Public Service Act which, in sub-section (~ of section 5, provides, inter alia-

Subject to and in accordance with this Act and regulations made thereun?er and subject ,to Part I. of .the Mental HygIene Act 1958 the functions of the Board shall be-

(a) to devise means for promoting efficiency in the working of. Departments by-

(i) improved organization and procedure;

(ii) closer supervision; (iii) simplification of work;

(iv) co-ordination of .the work of the various Departments;

(v) limitation of staffs of Departments to actual requirements;

(vi) the improvement of the training of officers; and

(vii) the avoidance of unnecessary expenditure;

(b) to exercise a critical oversight over the methods of conducting business in Departments;

(c) to supervise and improve the recruitment of the Public Service.

An examination of the functions for which the Public Service Board is responsible, combined with a knowledge of management functions, enables me to say that the whole respDnsibility and control of day-today administration must rest with the Public Service Board because all of the functions outlined in the Public Service Act relate wholly and solely to the day-to-day administration not only of a Government Department but also of any industrial or com:mercial organization in this country.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFIELD.Why did the Secretary of the Public Works Department invite the management consultants in and not the Public Service Board?

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-I should like to mention one point dealing with management consultants and the comment made by Mr. Todd. He is quite entitled, as is everyone else, to. have his personal views on the work done by m'anagement consultants in this country.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-Some of them have not even got their merit certificates. .

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.Some members of this House have. not, either. I know from experience that a large number of these consultants have done a tremendo.us amount of good work in secondarY. industry and commerce throughout the length and breadth of this co.untry, as well as overseas. If Dne is prepared to say that a manage-: ment consultant organizatiDn, with the procedures it uses, is not effec+ tive, it is in fact tantamount· to.


saying that likewise the committee system of this Parliament is not effective. I have worked in both spheres, and therefore know something about the subject. There is no doubt that our Parliamentary committees function in a manner similar to management consultants. The only difference is that in the main management consultants are specialists in the particular field that they investigate, and the Parliamentary committee system does not quite follow that pattern.

However, members of Parliament are in a different category and possibly in a better position, as members of committees, to make recommendations than are management consultants, despite the fact that management consultants are more qualified in their particular field, as members of committees have the right to call sworn evidence and cross-examine witnesses under oath, whereas a management consultant does not have this important privilege at his disposal. I suggest that this is the only difference between management consultants and the committee system which operates in this Parliament.

Whilst I am dealing with the Public Service Act, I should like to refer to sub-section (2) of section 26, which deals with the AdministraHve Division of the Public Service. It would be fair to say that this Division in the main consists of people who are charged with the responsibility of implementing procedures and the like which every Department must have for day-to-day administration. When one considers the vast increase in work output which has occurred over the past fifteen years not only in the Public Works Department but ,in every Government Department, and in industry and commerce, one comes to the conclusion that the people in these respansible positions can in fact be 'classified in the same category as skilled technical employees because the skills they require in the administrative field

The Hon. W. M. Campbell.

today are just as important and as vital t'O the running 'Of any industrial or commercial organization as are the skills required by a skilled technical man. The administrative offircer is a vital link in any organization. Yet, under the Public Service Act a technkal man can be employed for the ·first time in the Public 'Service if he is not more than 55 years .of age provided that he has certain qualifications. However, in the administrative field, if a person is over the age of 30 years and has not previously been 'a public servant, he cannot be employed in the Administrative Division. That is one section of the Public Service Act which I suggest to the Minister concerned should be amended as soon as possible.

I support the Minister 'Of Public Works. No member of this House can honestly say that the duties which that honorable gentleman has to perform are not onerous, because of the complexity and volume of the work undertaken by his Department and because of the scarcity 'Of labour. This scarcity of labour applies throughout industry and particularly in the technically skilled field. Technicians are difficult to ·find for any avenue of employment. I am sure that honorable members will agree that in this day and age ·when staff of ,this type is sa scarce and when the volume of work is so great, the Minister of Public Works has to carry additional responsibilities. In my opinion, over recent years the Minister of Public Works and other Ministers have done a better job than any of the1ir predecessors.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) .-Until the amendment involving Ministerial responsibility was maved by Mr. Todd, very few members of the Government had spoken. Since that time, there has been a galaxy of 'Ministers and at least ,'One backbencher, all of whom dealt with the question of Ministerial responsibility. On a number of occ'asi'Ons, the Labor Party has had the unpleas'ant task

Consolidated [I OCTOBE~ 1968J Revenue Bill. 381

of pO'inting out Ito the Government contraventions in this responsibility by various Ministers. Nowadays, of course, it is usual for Ministers, who take the oath that they will uphold the law, to belong to private and public companies, some with more than twenty members and others with fewer than twenty members.

It is anomalous that, under section 26 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act, where there is a company of more than twenty members, a member of Parliament who is a director, a shareholder or a member of ,the company, and who is liable to receive a gain from that company, is specifically excluded from the provisions of section 24. He may hold 99 per cent. of the shares in the company.

On the other hand, in a company of eighteen members, a Minister who may hold only one share, as is often the case, comes w-ithin that section O'f The Constitution Act Amendment Act and is required to vacate his seat. In fact, he does not have to hold shares, he needs only to be a director of the company.

Recently, in Tasmania, a member of the Legislative Council voluntarily relinquished his seat because he had offended against a similar provision in that State's Constitution Act. The difference between that provision and the comparable one in the Victorian Act is that the e~clusion in Tasmania relates to a comp'any of more than 30 members. The member of the Tasmanian Legisla'tive Council immediately went ito the AttorneyGeneral and set out his position. He was prepared to vacate his seat if necessary.

The Tasmani'an A:ct conta,ins a prO'vision whereby, if it is a trivial matter and the person 'could not have possibly known what was happening, the Minister can rule that he is en .. titled to retain his seat. I know of no such provision in the Victorian Act. However, this could not possibly apply in the Case to which I shall refer.

Section 24 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act reads, inter alia~

If any member of the Council or the Assembly either directly or indirectly becomes concerned or interested in ,any bargain or contr,act entered into by or on behalf of Her Majesty, or participates or claims or is entitled to participate either directly or indirectly in the profit thereof or in any benefit or emolument arising from the same . . . . . his seat shall thereupon become vacant. If this occurs and the member retains his seat after that time, especially if it has been drawn to his attention, he -is liable to the penaltie'S set out in section 27, which include a fine of $100 per week for every week he retains his seat whilst holding such office, plus expenses of any person who Iffiay take court action and recover the costs.

Section 26 states, inter alia-Nothing hereinbefore contained shall

extend or apply to any bargain or contract entered into by any company partnership or association consisting of more than twenty members where such bargain or contract is entered into for the general benefit of such company partnership or association --

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-To whom are you referring?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I ask the Minister nOot to be too anxious. I realize that this cap probably fits a number of members on the Government side Oof the House. On this occasion, I refer only to the Chief Secretary, who has re,cently been attacked 'Outside P'arliament and in another place on his occupation of a directorship in Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd.

Having regard to the provisions of The Constitution Act Amendment Act, which I have just read-they are clear enough to any member of this House-the first action of a Minister, especially one with the training of the Chief Secretary-he is a solicitor and has occupied the position 'Of AttorneyGeneral-would be to examine his position.

If he followed that course, the Chief Secretary would find that the company of which he is a director is

382 " Consolidated [COUNCIL.] Revenue Bill.

a New 'South Wales-based company consisting of three shareholders, Eric Edward McIllree, 73 Wyong-road, Cremome, New South Wales, Pemois Proprietary Liimited~ 33 Ainslieavenue, Canberra, and Shellbank Holdings PIty. Ltd., 19 lJondon-'Circuit, Canberra.

It may be argued that there are more members in the two companies so described, but investigation reveals that there are fewer than twenty members associated with Avis RentA-Car System Pty. Ltd. The shareholders in Pemois Pty. Ltd. are M. D. Thompson, de-ceased, M. E. Thompson, Mossman, M. D. Thompson, junior, and B. J. Baumgartner. F. B. McIllree, D. W. Wotton and Monty Holdings Pty. Ltd. are the shareholders in Shellbank Holdings Pty. Ltd. Wotton and McIllree are the sO'le shareholders in Monty Holdings Pty. Ltd. N otwi thstanding the subterfuge about holding companies, there are only seven shareholders, one of the;m deceased, in the Avis cO'mpany.

Sir Arthur Rylah does not appear as a shareholder, but it is comm'On knowledge that he is one 'Of the five directors of the company. The managing director is Mr. E. E. McIllree ; the general manager Mr. D. W. Wotton who, as I have already stated, is a shareholder in Shellbank Holdings and one of the shareholders in Monty Holdings; the operations manager is William Patrick Maher; and the other directors are Sir Arthur Rylah and Hazel Mackie Green.

There is no doubt that this is a serious constitutional matter, and it raises serious doubts whe"ther the BiH before :the House has !been invalidated by a member of Cabinet retaining his seat -in Parliament when he should not do so. This situation has occurred in Tasmania, and the Government of that State is c:onsidering the n"ecessity to validate all

The Hon. J. M. Walton.

the legislation that has been passed since Mr. Orchard discovered that he was haViing dealings with the Crown.

The Opposition has raised matters in regard to Ministerial responsibility and the fact that Ministers take an oath :to' uphold the law, but members on the Govem"ment side of the House, and particularly Ministers of the Crown, consistently accept company directorships and thereby place the whole structure of Parliament in doubt. This action places a shadow on the con'stitution of Parliament because people outside are able to point the finger and suggest that there is some doubt about a Minister who travels to New Zetaland in his capacity as director of a companywhere there is smoke, there is "fire. Members of the Labor Party do not want this sort of thing to be said about Parliament. There is no doubt that members of Parliament have such a poor image outside because members of this Government over the years, particularly in recent years, have blatantly accepted offers from outside Parliament which place their M,inisterial responsibilities in jeopardy.

One cannot blame the Public Service Board for matters relating to Ministerial responsibility. Ministers are responsible to Parliament. The Leader of the House acknowledged this fact, for which I give the honorable gentleman full marks. I should say that his record 'in that regard, so far as I am aware, is unblemished. -However, Mr. Campbell stated that the Minister of Public Works and the" permanent head of the Public Works Department have no such responsibility. Who is correct? I believe" the Minister of Agriculture has a conscience in this regard, but there are members of the Cabinet who have no conscience. I ask not only for the resignation of the Chief Secretary on the grounds that I have already stated but also for the resignation of the Minister of Public Works whose damning indictment appears in" the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. I support the amendment


which is to the effect that Supply should be refused because of the Government's refusal to acknowledge the principle of Ministerial responsibility.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) .-1, too, support the amendment moved by the Labor Party. It is significant that on this occasion many prominent Caibinett Ministers of this Government, which has been in office since 1955, have in a succession of speeches attempted to white-wash their failure to observe the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility. This Government was elected on only 35 per cent. of the first preference votes at the last election; it represents only 35 per cent. of the Victorian people's first choice. It displays extraordinary arrogance and contempt not only for the people of Victoria but also for the institutions of Parliament and Parliamentary democracy.

The major report that was presented to Parliament by the Committee of Public Accounts was drawn up by members of this Parliament, and I point out that the Government has more members on that committee than has the Labor Party or the Country Party. In attempting to white-wash the Minister, the Government is making a mockery of Parliament-a sham of the great traditions that have always governed Parliamentary institutions, such as the British House of Commons and any of the other Parliaments of Australia. It is not surprising that this Government should hand out honours of all sorts to: its present incumbents. It appears to be easy to obtain a knighthood or an honorary degree. Dr. Bolte has now become Sir Henry Bolte. However, it is difficult to get Ministers to stand by the best traditions of Parliamentary democracy and to believe in the principles of Ministerial responsibility.

The matters that have been referred to by my colleague, Mr. Walton, demonstrate the extent to which this doctrine is being degraded

by Ministers of the Cabinet. They are not only ignoring constitutional doctrines, but are also hiding behind the Public Service and the Public Service Board. ,Mr. Campbell explained at some length what the Minister of Public Works said, but, despite numerous interjections from members of our pa~ty, he was not prepared to say when the statements were made and in what conte~t. Whether Mr. Campbell or the Government likes ,it or not, the fact is that the Minister of Public Works, when he was interviewed by the press last Friday, did say that he was not responsible for administration. The Minister's statements were recorded in the press, and we believe they can be verified. Although Mr. Campbell admitted that that statement was made, he tried to explain what it meant and what he felt might have been in the mind of the Minister at the time. The Government is simply trying to cover up its own failures and incompetence.

Mr. Campbell quoted paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) of subsection (2) of section 5 of the Public Service Act, but he did not quote sub-section (3), which states-

In relation to all matters specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the last preceding sub-seotion the Board shall advise the Minister administering ,the Departments concerned of its suggestions or proposals.

Sub-sectio'n (4) provides-The Minister may concur in or adopt

the suggestion or proposals but if it appears to the Minister that there 'are objections to such concurrence or adoption the Minister shall refer the matter to the Governor in Council who shall finally determine the matter.

The Minister of Agriculture attempted to claim that my colleague, Mr. Knight, and I were ignorant and did not understand the due processes of government in this State. Do the provisions to which I have referred suggest that the Public Service Board is completely independent of the Minister and the Government? As Mr. Merrifield has pointed out, the Premier and Treasurer decides how


many positions shall be available and the Public Service Board is then called upon to fill those positions.

How can the Public Service Board be a completely independent body, when sub-section (1) of section 6 of the Public Service Act provides-

The Board shall consist of three members appointed or elected from time to time of whom one shall be chairman one shall represent the Government of Victoria and one shall represent the Public Service.

Nevertheless, Ministers who have spoken tonight assured the House that the Public Service Board is quite independent, and that it has to carry the blame for all of the shortcomings that are set out in the report of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Is it any wonder that Ministers attempt to evade their responsibilities? Is it any wonder that earlier this year the Assistant Minister of Education, unknown to me, challenged me to' a public debate on the issues of education? When a journalist telephoned me and asked, '" What about this challenge, Mr. Cathie?" I said that I was prepared to accept it. I wrote to Mr. Rossiter, the Assistant Minister of Education, stating that he could name the time and the place and that I would debate the matter with him, but I did not receive a reply. One cannot get these so-called responsible Ministers of the Crown to come out before the public and defend their administration.

Ministers in this Chamber have become so confused about their proper role and their responsibility to the public that they feel that there is no conflict between their public duty and their private interests. And so they ,can go along and accept company directorships. The Mlinister of Health '1s a company director, 'even though he attempted to ,mis1ead the House when I asked hi'm ~n 'a previOous debate whether he he1d a 'cOompany dkectoTship. This is recO'rded in Hansard of 24th October, 1967, when, by interjection, II said tOo the honorable gentleman-

I wanted to know whether you were a company director.

The Hon. I. R. Cathie.

In reply to my interject1ion, the M·inister stated, "N 0 ". There was great laughter ,f,rO'm Mr. HamHton and some other Government members, but I took the trouble to 'Check the company rec'Ords for both before and 'after that date, and I fOound that the M'in1iste'r of Health IW'as listed as a 'company director .of Toppa Holdings Ltd. The Minister had tile baref.aced eff~O'ntery tOo m1is1lead the House 'On this issue, which lis rtypical of this Cabinet's irresponsibility. Toppa HOoldings Ltd. is a 'Subsidiary company O'f Br,itish "Dobaeco. ,Is there n'Ot at least an appearance of 'conflict between the interests of the tobacco industry and of the health of the Victo'flian people? Here a Minister of HeaHh who is -confused about his views of Cabinet ,responsibHity has accepted a ,company directorsbip iin a 'company which lis closely l~nked with the tobaeco industry. Is it ,any wonder that Sir Arthur Rylah can have his fares paid to visit New Zealand for Avis RentA-Car System Pty. Ltd. and say as an excuse that he is visiting that country to promote touris'm?

Victoria has reached the degraded level that, in the eyes of Mlinisters of the Orown, what is good for !Avis Rent-A-Car 'appalrenNy is good for ,the peop,le of the State, or what is good for Esso is apparently good for the people Oof Victoria. Our pO'J.itkal opponents have ;mentioned ·the n ,faceless men", but who could be more faceless than the faceless men who control the Liberal Party Dr who sit on the board as directors of Esso which is a subsidiary of the Standard Oil Company whose headquarters are in New Jersey in the United States of America?

The Hon. H. M. Hamilton.-What about Mr. Anderson?

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-Mr. Anderson, whO' died recently, was a past president .of the ]JibeTal P'arty and also 'managing directo'r of the Shell company in this State. Is it any wonder that there ha's been a ,complete betrayal of the people by the s~e to overseas interests of the great natural resources of the St'ate?

Consolidated [I OCTOBE~ 1968J Revenue Bill. 385

The Hon. H. M. Hamilton.-lt should have gone to Shell.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-Appar· ently'Mr. HamHton'is prepared to say that lit ,is aU ,right ,for the Government to sell out the assets of the \Tiictorian people. Only Tecently, <there appeared on the [or.ont page of the Dandenong Journal a statement to the effect that three l'Ocal seoondary school teachers had ,left their schools to take up iappointments in Canada. One reason why tea'ohers go to Canada is that they can double their salaries. This ,is possible because in the oil producing State .of Alberta the authorities inslist on 'a far better dea:l than V.i'c.torians have been able to obtain. If a similar attitude had been adopted .in V!ictoria, we would not have had t'O pass such regressive forms of taxation as sales tax, stamps tax, turnover tax on gas and 'electflicity and 'indirect taxes which are a'imed at <the ,average people in the community, who are in the ,m'ajor.ity. The Government is careful to avoid impos'ing taxes on capital gain 'Or on urban land values.

lIS it any wonder that the Minister of Education, in trying to excuse ,and whitewash the actions of the Government 'and Cabinet, should try to put this respnnSlibiHty on to the ,Publk Service Board. The honorable gentleman ignored the fact that once ,men are appointed to positions in the Department, their ,c'Onduct iand the 'm:anner in which they :ca'rry out their duties certainly come under the direc.ti'On and responsibHity of the Minister concerned.

The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.I agree.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-I am pleased that at ,last the Minister of Education is on .our side, and I look forward !to the honorable gentleman crossing the floor ,and voting with us on this issue.

The Han. G. J. Nkol.-No doubt you wiU want this featured iin tile Tribune.

The Hon. I. R. CA "f.HIE.-I am used to' the sneering tactics employed by Mr. Nicol. ,He wiU not dete,r ,me f~om my theme, which is ~he utter and complete faHure of the Liberal.Party of V:ictoria to ,maintain the hIghest and best tradiHons of ParHa'mentary democracy and the iPaflHa,mentary institution which is responsible to the people of this State. Parliament ,is not separate flio'm the people; it 'r.epresents the people and 'must c'ar.ry out -its highest obligations to the peO'ple of the State. The doctrine of Cabinet krersponsibiHtywhkh is being prodarimed by the Government of the day, tends to hring the instituttion of Parliament intO' gr.ave disrespect among the avelrage people of the community.

Behind all of this is the utter failure 'Of the lJiber-al Party, faced ,as it lis with 'a -maJor and decisive spllit in its ranks, to solve the vexed quest,ion of Co'm'monweaIth-State relationships. That is why I interjected when the Leader of the Government was speaking to point out that jt 'is often a 'm-atter of money, and it lis at this pOlint that the Government and the Liberal Party of Australia have faHed the people of ViictoTia :and Austr.aNa because they -cannot resolve these great issues. iIt irs ,most important ,that members should support the motion before the Chair.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON (Higinbotham Province).-I shaH be hr.ief. I wish to' refer particularly to Mr. Cathie's diaN'libe and the masterly e~hibition he gave of distorting statements made by other people, in his customary manner. In the course Df his remarks he referred to the offices held by the late S'i'r WilHam Anderson, and he stated that he was a director of the Shell -compan'y and 'Of lits subsidialry. I linterjected - at that stage he was speak'ing about Esso-that if this matter was within the control of the Liberal Party, one could logically expect that these cDntracts would go to the Shell company. Mr. Cathie, in his usual


masterly fashion, promptly twisted my remarks to mean something altogether different.

,In connexion with the report concerning the Public Works Department, I emph'asize three points: First, the investigating body is a Parliamentary com1mittee wbich was ISet up 'at the instigation of this Government to do just what it has done, namely, highliight weaknesses that exist in the administraHon of Departments. The fact that it produced a report of thi,s nature ,is a matter on which the Govem·ment should 'congratulate ,itself because previous Governments were asked for 'm;any years to set up a committee of this type but they refused to do so.

The 'Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Have you 'any basis for that statement?

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.To 'my knowledge there was constant agitation for tile establishment of a Committee of Public Accounts in Viictoftia ·foT." at least fifteen or twenty years before the present Goveftnment took :office. The Minister of Education has handed me a copy of Hansard for 24th November, 1953, at page 2221 of ·which the late Sir Arthur W,arner is reported as having suggested the appoint'ment :of a commlittee to investigate the expenditure iO'f various Departments. That is just one instance.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Prove the others.

The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON.-I have proved one. Some astounding statements were made by Mr. Todd tonight when he was ridiculing the recommendation of the Committee of Public Accounts that a firm of business management consultants should be appointed to investigate certain aspects of the administration of the Public Works Department. Let us be consistent. If that is a ridiculous recommendation, are members of this House to take any notice of the other recommendations? Mr. Todd bases the whole of his argument on the fact that this report highlights inefficiencies,

but he is not prepared to acceptand, in fact, he ridicules-one of its most important recommendations. It is noteworthy that the Minister had commenced arrangements for obtaining the services of consultants before this report was presented, and probably before the commencement of the investigation by the committee. As the Minister of Education has already pointed out, all but one of the recommendations have been or are in the course of being implemented, and 1 suggest that this, in itself, :emphasizes the fact that not only has the Minister been "on the ball " but that he has also been carrying out his duty to the Department.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Obviously, you have not read the report.

The Hon. H. M. HkMILTON.-I have read more of it than Mr. Clarke has.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) .-1 was surprised at the phraseology employed by the last speaker and at the ignorance he displayed in connexion with certain ma~ters, ibecause, from my reading of the report of the Committee of Public Accounts, it is obvious that Mr. Hamilton's interpretation of English is different from mine. I a'm astounded at the misstatements made by Mr. Hamilton. Although he referred to many occasions on which representations were made for the establishment of a Committee of Public Accounts, he substantiated only one case. In his airy-fairy way he made reference to " many occasions" ; but the proof of the pudding is tin the eating, and he made no attempt to be specific with regard to other occasions on which representations were made. It is obvious that he is not -in possession of the facts of the matter.

1 suppor:t the amendment moved by Mr. Todd. I am astonished at what happens in relation to projects being undertaken by the Public Works Department. One example of wastefulness is to be observed at the old Government Printing Office. A flight


of stairs which led to the sales depart,ment there has been removed and a new flight is being erected. I do nO't know the reason for this, because the old stairs served their purpose. Another example is the waste of public mO'ney which has taken place in connexion with the new State offices. The Minister of Public Works is responsible for that but, in the usual 'way of Imembers of the Liberal Party in both the Commonwealth and State Governments, the Ministers run for cover when trouble arises.

In some respects members of the Government treat Pa-rliament as a Joke, and that attitude is easHy understood when one considers the businesses with which they are associated. Unless Ministers devote the whole of their time to their Parliamentary duties, they cannot properly carry them out, and I am of the opinion that it is of very great importance for a Minister to devote the whole olf his activi'ties to Parliament and not to be engaged in outside business activities. My coUeague, Mr. Merrifield, has handed me the Legislative Assembly Notices of Motion and Orders of the Day, No.7, dated 30th July, 1918. It deals with select committees, and reveals that the COIJ1lmittee of Public Accounts was appointed on 25th July, 1918, and }.ists the members of that committee.

According to the Government, the establishment of the committee was a great innovation, but, as the Liberal Party has changed its spots so many times, I doubt whether it existed under that name in 1918. The Labor Party believes a situation in which a Minister of the Crown attempts to evade his responsibility to be one of the utmost seriousness. In response to my interjection, the Leader of the House informed me that I was ignorant with regard to Parliamentary practice, and 'I am sorry that he is not present in the chamber to enable me to challenge him concern'ing the

matter. I suggest that it is he who is ignorant in this regard and, although I have great respect for him as a Minister and for the way in which he administers the Department of Agriculture, I think his case tonight was extremely weak and that he is not familiar with Parliamentary practice so far as it relates to Ministerial responsibility. 1 believe the Government has clearly demonstrated that members of the public have no faith in Ministers of the Crown and very little respe'ct for the -way in which they carry out their duties.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-1 wish to comment briefly on a matter to which Mr. Campbell referred, and to thank him for having obtained details from the Minister of what was said and for explaining to the House the circumstances under which it is alleged that the statements were made. I suggest that we should examine Mr. Campbell's statement, wipe away the naive explanation that has been given and understand that 'Ministers of Departments and members of the press have different functions to perform. One attempts t'O obtain the news he wants, and the other attempts to give the news he wants. I have had occasion to give news items to members ,of the press, and .I have never been misquoted unless 1 have been careless in my statements.

1 can underntand a conference taking place only on the basis of this report, whkh is c1"itica'l of the admin1istration of the Public Works Depart'ment. If the Minister -m,ade the statement tin the full kno-wledge gained during his experience as Minister over the previous years, it cannot be explained away by the naive attitude of Mr. Campbell in this House tonight.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-I have been misquoted from a written statement.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.Many politicians hide behind the statement that they have been misquoted. I have read many quotations in country papers from Ministers who


thought that a statement made in a country district would not be reported. When such a statement is picked up, the Minister invariably says that he did not make it, or did not mean it. I have heard some of these statements made. Perhaps I have made statements of this kind, but I have never been caught. The Minister did make the statement, and it is on the basis of his doing so that he is being criticized.

The Opposition has moved an amendment to the motiQin whkh, if agreed to, will censure the Government. 1ihe Country Party has been invited to support the Opposition by withholding Supply for the time being. That means just what it says. Opposition members invite the support of the Country Party in the firm belief that we have logic on our side. I realize that we cannot get away from the maxim of a former member of this House, the Honorable P. J. Kennelly, which has been mentioned tonight, and I realize that, despite the fact that we have the logic, we may not have the numbers.

If the Country Party does not assist us to ,resolve the position by removing the Government, I suggest that, ,in the public interest, lit must issue some warn~ng. I again invite the Country Party to join the Opposition in supporting the amendment.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-If we support you and send the Government to the hustings, you will give its supporters your second preferences.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-So will the Country Party. I make a public offer to my friend, Mr. Swinburne. If he will give me a guarantee that my party will receive all the second preferences of his party, my party will consider giving his party its second preferences.

The House divided on the question that the words proposed by Mr. Todd to be omitted stand part of the motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 24 Noes 9

Majority against the amendment 15

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Byrne Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Clarke Mr. Dickie Mr. Granter Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross Mr. Hamer Mr. Hamilton Mr. Hewson

Mr. GalbaUy Mr. Knight Mr. Merrifield Mr. O'Connell Mr. Todd

AYES.

Mr. Houghton Mr. Hunt Mr. McDonald Mr. Mansell Mr. Mitchell Mr. Nicol Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thorn Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Fry Mr. Gleeson.

NOES.

Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Cathie Mr. Elliot.

The House divided on the motion for the second reading (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 24 Noes 9

Majority for the motion

Mr. Bradbury Mr. Byrne Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Clarke Mr. Dickie Mr. Fry Mr. Gleeson Mr. Granter Mr. Grimwade Mr. Gross Mr. Hamer

Mr. Cathie Mr. Elliot Mr. Galbally Mr. Merrifield Mr. O'Connell

The Bill was and committed.

15 AYES.

Mr. Hamilton Mr. Houghton Mr. Hunt Mr. Mansell Mr. Mitchell Mr. Nicol Mr. Swinburne Mr. Thorn Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Hewson Mr. McDonald.

NOES.

Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Knight Mr. Todd.

read a second time

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Sum available for the purposes voted by the Legislative Assembly) .

Consolidated L 1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Revenue Bill. 389

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .-When the Minister for Local Government was speaking earlier, I asked him by interjection whether he would itemize the matters which he placed before the conference that he attended, but he did not seem to be in the right frame of mind to reply. I believe there are many ways in which the State can assist decentralized industry. The Government of New South Wales gives railway freight conces,sions, prov.ides finance .for special purposes for the development Qif these industries, ·and provides housing and other amenities. Since 1965 it has provided a total sum of $11,000,000 for this purpose.

In Victoria very little is done in this regard. The Housing Commission is being used to provide homes, but they are not being provided through the State Development Fund. If houses are given to an industry it is at the expense of the other applicants in the area. In my opinion, the Housing Commission should be subsidized so that it could build more houses in country areas and thereby overcome the problem. A similar procedure has been adopted by the New South Wales Administration.

Generally speaking, if the Government of Victoria made a contribution similar to that made by the New South Wales Administration, immediate progress would be made. I agree with the Minister that the matters he raised relating to the Federal Government would play a great part. For example, exemption from pay-roll tax would be one of the g,reatest contributions, and lower telephone charges would also assist materially. A decentralized industry is placed at a great disadvantage 'compared with a metropolitan industry when the cost of telephone calls is taken into consideration. I do not disagree with what the Minister said in relation to these proposals, but I believe we ought to be taking more action at a State level instead of laying the blame on the Federal Government for what

it is not doing. We use our influence on Federal members of Parliament to try to achieve this, with little success, but some day we may get somewhere.

There are ample opportunities within our own administrat,ion to give assistance to these industries to encourage them to stay in the country and to develop their activities. If new industries can be encouraged to establish themselves in country centres, so much the better. At the moment the D~vision of State Deve,lopmentis dOling very little to assist country industries to develop or to obtain new industries for the country. We ought to be doing more than we are at present.

The Hon. G. W. THOM (SouthWestern Province) .-1 direct attention to a matter that is causing me 'Some ·concern regarding State development genera!lly. I refer in particular to the position in Geelong which has a population of 110,000. There is an attitude of mind abroad that Geelong is now large enough to be self-generating. I believe that this is a dangerous line of thought. No one has yet made a sufficient study to find out when a city is large enough to become selfgenerating. Generally speaking, people from the Geelong area reluctantly accepted the proposal for the selection of favoured centres for development, but I believe that this policy could cause a great deal of trouble in the future. In my opinion, insufficient attention is being paid to the position of a city which has contributed a great deal to its own success, but is not yet big enough to be classified as a large metropolis. Geelong should not be put into the same category as the metropolitan area which has a population of 2,200,000 and has reached the stage of being self-generating. There is an attitude of mind which expects Geelong to stand on its own feet. It does not receive benefits applicable to other provincial areas, and in some respects does not participate in benefits applying to the


metropolitan area. It is neither " fish nor flesh." In the interests of the future of this State as a whole, the position obtaining in Geelong needs to be watched carefully.

The Hon. G. J. O"CONNELL (Melbourne Province) .-1 relate my remarks to totalizator adm-inistration and refer again to a ·matter on which 1 have spoken 'in this Chamber on s'everal occasions. This is the inadequate facHities provided f.or the patrons of the totalizator betting shops who have t'O wait in ,a queue to place their bets. This happens not only in the metropolitan area but also in c'Ountry ,areas, especially ,around the bayside.

Off -course totaliza tor opera tions have a total turnover of $150,000,000 a yea'r, from ,which the Government gets 5 per ,cent. in addition to the fra'ctions. In view of the amount of business transacted, I know of no reason why the patrons of the off-course totalizator should have to queue up to place their bets. 1 realize that an additional facility has been provided by reducing the time for the placing the bets from 40 minutes to 20 minutes before a race, and this has been achieved as a result of the installation of the computor Carbine. I do not know whether the Totalizator Agency Board or the person who conducts the agency is responsible for the lack of facilities, but I voice my protest against it. At some agencies adequate window facilities are provided but there is insufficient staff to man these windows. It is the patrons with their 50 cents bets who keep the off-course totalizator going and they bring in the revenue. Therefore, their needs should be met.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) .-1 was particularly interested in the cnm'ments made by Mr. Thorn, and I inform him that similar comments have been made over a number of years by the honorable member for Geelong North in another place. There is no doubt that in Geelong. too many people are centred in too few industries and if

these industries ever suffer a depression there will very quickly be a large force of unemployed in Geelong. Only recently I was in the Anglesea area for International Harvester Company of Australia Pty. Ltd., and I found to my dismay how much the work force can vary in that organization. In addition, there is the complex of the meat industry and the refinery in Corio and, as I have said, this results in too many people being concentrated in too few industr.ies.

I think ,Mr. Thorn has put forward a good point even if 'it has been espoused ;in another place for ,a number of years by the honorable member for Geelong North. ,Mr. Thorn should get off the seat of his pants and go among the people. He w'Ould then ascertain what has been done for the constituents by the honorable member for Geelong North. Mr. Thorn is more adept at interjecting and making inadequate noises in the Chamber than he is at stating facts in debate. He should take a leaf out of the book of the honorable member f'Or Geelong North instead of bleating so much and thumping the parish pump.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) .-1 refer to the establishment of advisory committees set up by the Division of State Development. ,Mr. Thorn has already said that, with a population of 110,000 people, Geelong is not capable of managing its affairs without some form of assistance for the diversification of its industries. It is wrong to select any area and give it special attention.

The natural development of an area should be permitted to take place through its surrounding environment. Forced development is never permanent; some form of assistance for natural development is safer. Gutless committees have been established; they have no stability and ·make no financial contributions to State development. This is no reflection 'On the members of those committees.


The Hon. D. G. ELUoT.-They have no teeth.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-They are cO'mpletely toothless and they are held to ridicule by all ;in the area in which they operate. 'Municipal councils have certain ideas how the development of their areas can be ma,intained. There is always a conflict with these committees, and there are arguments on which areas are most suited to development. This difficult situation can be resolved only by a general application of State development in areas which submit sound economic proposals.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-Portland is an area marked fior instant development. However, the only action we have seen is that of the Minister for Local Government who took away part of the shire and gave it to the town.

The high school at Portland was built to accommodate 550 students, and at present there is an attendance of 730 students. No plans have been formulated by the Education Department to alleviate this over-crowding, and no consideration has been given to the needs of further education. How can these areas develop when no plan has been made for an adequate educational programme? Unless the Government is prepared to give a lead, State development will become a farce.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla PrO'vince).-Today 1 received a publication through the courtesy of the Victoria PromotiO'n Committee. From where did it derive its title? It would appear to promote Melbourne, because it contains photographs of Melbourne, of the Leader of the Liberal Party and of one of the trustees of the Liberal Party's campaign fund. There is a story of building, of prosperity, and of the markets.

The booklet contains a list O'f the industries which have been estaJbfished in this State for more than 40 years. It also illustrates the fuel industry, the Shell oil refinery at

Geelong, and the Hazelwood pr.oject at Yalloum-which has nO'thing to do with private enterprise. There is no further reference to anything outside a radius of 25 miles from Melbourne.': Surely there is a promotions writer within the Division of State Development capable of producing a booklet equivalent to this and the previous publication. The expenditure of $160,000 last year, and of $200,000 this year on the publication 'Of booklets could have been better devoted to hospitals or education. It is a sheer waste of money. The Division should be taken over with Maurie Nathan as its director, or should cease its activities because Victoria cannot afford to run both and waste $200,000 when so many schools require subsidies.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) .-1 refer to the Police Depart'ment, ,and particularly to the shortage of police at the Footscray police station. On 14th August, 1968, the Chief Secretary wrote to me and said that he waspleased to ladvise ·that it is proposed by the Chief Commissioner of Police to increase the strength of the Footscray police station by the 'appointment of two first constables! constables.

It is expected that these appointments will be made in the very near future and (excluding members of the Criminal Investigation Branch) will bring the ,strength of this station to two sergeants, five senior constables and 22 first constables!constables.

This matter would have been raised by ,my ,colleague in an'Other place, Mr. Divers, who, unfmtunate'ly, 'is on leave of ,a,bsence 'On a·cconnt of 'illness. The Footscray Mail of Thursday, 19th September, 1968, c'Ontains .the fo-Howing report:-

Footscray council will protest to the State Government over a recent announcement that the uniformed police strength at Footscray would be increased.

Council claims an announcement last month by the Chief Secretary (Sir Arthur Rylah) that two extra constables or first constables would be appointed to Footscray does not increase ·the police strength, as stated by Sir Arthur, but returns it to normal.

Mr. W. T. Divers, the Labor member of the Legislative Assembly for Footscray, stated at the time ,this was the case.


Monday's decision to protest was unanimous on the motion of Cr. R. Argaet.

Cr. Argeaot said his investigations following reports the Chief Secretary's announcement was misleading showed the additional appointments did nothing but cover an existing shortage a<t Footscray's police station.

Footscray has been "made the scapegoat for too long" where police staff shoI"tages were concerned, he said.

Every "red herring" possible had been drawn across the council's path in an attempt <to distract from the shortage.

"We did not get more police," he said. " We are still below the recommended strength. "

Cr. G. Cruickshank said it was left to him, as mayor at the time, to make a statement to council that the police strength would be increased.

But his statement had been the result of a "very misleading announcement" by the authorities.

Cr. M. Harris s:aid in many areas milk money was being stolen regularly and clothing was being stolen from clothes lines, but insufficient police were available to properly patrol Footscray. I have been infDrmed that the Chief Secretary's prDposal 'Only replaces the shDrtage nf two on the establlished strength of the F'OotS'cray police statiDn.

In view of the 'crime rate :in FD'Ots,cray ,and ,adjoiningareas, which police have to cover in patrol 'wagons, I request the Chief Secretary to inorease the polke strength S'O that these patrols may cnver the areas mDre frequently.

The 'cnm'menrts by the Chief Secretary about lower:ing the height requirement for recruits to the Police FDrce are interesting. I do not beMeve a lowering of the height requirement would affect 'a person's efficiency. PDUce forces lin England, espeC'iaHy the London Pnli'ce For,oe, have the l,ower height requirement and their efficiency is not limpeded. If the requkement were lowered, it 'm1ight be posslihle to recruit more policemen.

The presence in 'certain spedaUst squads of officers who do nnt 'meet the present height ,requirement sh'Ould be a fnrceful ,argument in support of e~tending this principle to other sectiDns.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West PrDvince).-Honorable ,members should be 'concerned

with the lin[,nrmation that 'was produced a few days ,agO' regarding the tr:ansfer of men ,f'r:om the Company Fraud Squad to uni'~orm duty. Investigations into 'companies require men possessing ,certain ,qualities. Ap-' parently this squad has buillt up ,a pool of men who a're ,capable of carrying out those duties, but some have been wb1sked away ,and put into un1iform.

Inquiries ,into some .of ibhe " fly-bynight" financiers have been delayed for some ti'me, and the transfer of qualified members of the Cnmpany Fraud Squad m,ay further delay 1Jhe inquiries. It is necessary that SDme change should be 'made within the system so that qualified 'men 'can be kept 'in the iSpecia,I'i,st departments and be given the necessary promotiDn f'rom time t'O time acco,rding to' their ability. I trust that this matter wiH not be ,lost sight of and that considerationwill be given to retaining in the Company Fraud Squad competent men WhD ,are able to exa'mine c01mpany books and reach ,concrete conclusions.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province).-I now refer toO the establishment 'Of ,a special s,chool f.or backward ,children at Millstreet, N nrth Altona. WhHst II appreciate ~he calls made upon the EducaNon Department '£rom ,ti'me to ,time, I should like the Minister seriously to consider the establlishment of this school.

The m'igrant population in the area ils increasing, and this ,create,s a strain on the 'Other schools. At the East Altona school, teachers have done a marvellous job in bringing migrant ohHdren up to the standard required in the early stages. Unf.ortunately, othelr SChODls 'cannot dO' this because of 'Overcrnwding. The're is also the problem 'Of backwar:d children. When the prinrities are be'ing set, I ask :the Miinister toestabliiSh this spedal school for backward ch:ildren 'as quickly -as possible.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON ~Gippsland Province ).-1 refer to' 'an answer given to a question asked by' the member for ,Gippsland SDUth 'in'


another place in relation to Leongatha Techni'cal School.

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. G. J. Nicol).-The honorable 'member may not refer to anything said in another pla'ce.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-Twelve months ago, in answer to a question in relation to the Leongatha Technical School, 1 was informed that the s,ite would be planned, ,that tenders 'would be called in the :latter part of 1967-68, and that the building ,would be ready for occupati,on by the end of 1968. The answer has now been given that tilie same procedure wiU be ,adopted twelve months )l'ater and that 'OOCUpation win not take place untH 1970 ins1tead of 1968. 1 dkect this 'matter to ,the attention of the Government because the school has been operating under conditions which are not conducive to proper educational standards for' those pupHs ~who are attending the make-shift school.

The people of South Gippsland desire a techn1kal school iin the area because no technical schoolexis'ts between Dandenong and Sale on the South Gippsland line. Those students who 'wish <to undertake teohnkal courses or apprenticeships, particularly ,in the motor trade, have experienced difficulty because they have had to travel many mBes from Foste,r to Dandenong, from Leongatha to Dandenong, and even across the hiUs to MorweU and other towns. It has been difficult .for pupils in the South Gippsland area to' ,obtain technical educaNon. 1 hope that because of the urgency of the situation the Mlinister of Education will be able to speed up the present programme. It is disappointing to learn that the provision of a permanent building has been further delayed.

1 also wish to relate my remarks to grants for ground works at schools. The Warragul High School made an application together with the necessary specifications and estimates. Seven weeks after the allocations were listed, the high school was informed that no further finance was

available. This illustrates a shortage of money in this field. I believe a greater allocation should be made for this purpose because it is regrettable to see a school get into a state of disrepair through lack of maintenance because works are not carried out when they should be.

The Hon. C. A. MITCHELL (Western Province) .-1 wish to mention the Hamilton High School. Hamilton has a population of 10,000. The Education Department is shifting old Bristol buildipgs to a new site at great cost to the State. I do not think 1 have ever previously witnessed such a waste of money on public buildings. 1 feel that it would be wrong if 1 failed to bring this matter to the attention of the Government and to express my sincere disapproval of what is occurring.

1 believe handicapped children, who now come under the control of the Department of Health, should be brought under the Education Department. These children are neglected by the State. After all, they are individuals, human beings, but they are not treated as are other children. I ask the Government seriously to consider bringing these children under the ambit of the Education Department.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE (No~hern Province) .-No doubt at this time of the year the Education Department is engaged on commencing its merrygo-round of promotions and transfers. Earlier this year I asked the Minister of Education how many high schools had new head masters this year, and was informed that, of the 234 high schools in Victoria, 53, or onequarter, had new head masters, and that of the 1,925 primary schools, 660, or one-third, had new head masters this year. A similar state of affairs has been going on for years, with the result that there is a lack of continuity in the educational administration in the various centres. I do not know how much this costs the Department by way of transfers, removals and so forth, or how much it costs the individual teachers to move


from one centre to another or from one district to another. I shall be interested to hear them if the Minister has any figures in this regard.

I t has been the custom in registered schools for a head master to be appointed for a long period of years. I find that in the registered schools, the great public schools, the turnover of staff each year is negligible. At one leading school, out of a staff of 60 there was only one change this year. I should think that at any school in the State system which had a staff of 60 teachers the average number of transfers per annum would be more like 20 to 25 per cent.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-There is a different type of promotion.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-That is the whole root of the vicious system -promotion means transfer. I hope this system can be modified until it is whittled away. A head master of a high school builds up the morale of the school by making contacts with the local people, getting an advisory council to help with finance and other assistance, and the school becomes part of the community. Time and aga-in that head master is transferred and contacts are broken; a new head master comes into the distr,ict and has to take up an entirely new sphere of operation. The figures on transfers speak for themselves. It is not possible to get a coherent body of public support behind our State high schools if the head m1asters are changed frequently. Overseas this is not the custom, and there is far more community support for the schools.

In Great Britain, the United States and Canada the local communities are right behind the local schools. I am happy to say that in northern Victoria there are some shining examples of communities supporting local high schools. For example, at Kerang a large sum of money has been raised for a new assembly hall and other projects, and a fund has been initiated to obtain a new library, the present one being inadequate. One of the reasons behind this activity is that

in Kerang the head master, Mr. Greenwell, has been there for some time and has the support of the Kerang com·munity.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-When is he going to retire?

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-I hope he will be there for a good many years to come. He is the right man for the job. At Charlton there was an excellent head master who stayed there for two years ; previously there had been a change every year. He had just organized all the local communities and clubs to help the school when the school was upgraded; unfortunately, he was promoted about two weeks afterwards. He was challenged on promotion and was posted as an assistant head master somewhere else. That is a ridiculous state of affairs.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-You will have the teachers against you.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-I have them with me. I have fought again and again to stop the transfer of teachers on promotion. They could take their promotions and stay where they are if the system worked properly. There is one feature of promotions which could be changed. Take the case of a girl teacher accepting her first posting in the country. Applications for transfers are called by May. It is ridiculous to have such an early call for transfers, because the teacher concerned has not settled into the community, is very probably homesick, and so on. However, applications are called for before May and put in. A large seminar was held at Kerang, and it was unanimously agreed that transfers should be applied for later in the year. I do not know whether the Department has done anything about the matter, but I understand that transfers are still being called for early in the year. I urge the Minister to stop this merry-go-round of transfers in order to get some stability in our schools, particularly country schools, and to stop the staff from changing so rapidly.


The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-1 shall deal briefly in the reverse order with the points raised. i believe a new system of classification and promotion is an urgent necessity for the Education Department. It so happens that under the existing Teaching Service Act the responsibility for classification and promotion rests with the committee of classifiers and the Teachers Tribunal. I have informed them of my views on the subject and have promised full support in the way of amending legislation that may be necessary in order to reduce the absurdly large number of transfers that occur as a result of the present promotion system. I do not think we can hope to reach the desirable state achieved by some independent SChDDls because they are cDncerned with running only one SChODI whereas the Department is cDncerned with running 234.

Mr. ~night raised the questiDn O'f a special SChODI in the AltDna area. I shall investigate this matter. The AltO'na people are keenly interested in eduoation and the GDvernment will be happy to do anything it can to' help them. I ShDUld like to have la detailed IODk at the position relating to' the LeDngatha Technical SchoO'I, to which Mr. HeWSDn referred; II shall reply to' the hDnDrable member by letter. The claim by 'Mr. Mitchell that there is a waste of public mDney at HamiltDn in connexiDn with the remDval of BristDI buildings to a new site has already been examined. I wDuld be only to'o happy to' provide new class-rooms but, unfDrtunately, the recDmmendatiDns of the Public WO'rks Department indicated that $60,000 of taxpayers' mDney wDuld be saved if the existing -class-rDoms were renDvated. Such a reCDmmendatiDn cannDt be ignO'red.

The HDn. I. A. SWINBURNE.~Has that proved to' be the case?

The Hon. L. IH. S. THOMPSON.Yes, at this stage.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) .-Recently in this Chamber I asked a questiO'n cO'ncern-

ing the sand bar at Lakes Entrance. Each day, 350 men are transported on variO'us ship'S at different Urnes, irrespective of tides, to' the wellheads and drilling platfDrms in Bass Strait. Lakes Entrance, which is only aJbDut 30 miles from the scene Df DperatiDns, is the natural pla'ce for embarkation. The alternative is a trip of 105 miles to Barry Beach. The reply to' my questiDn stated that the sDlutiDn to the sand bar problem must be economically feasible. When human Bves are at stake, I do nDt t!hink there is need to study the eCDnomics Dr feasibility of the situatiDn; it tis 'a questiDn of transporting men safely from Lakes Entrance to the wellheads. I agree that from the point of view of trading and the potential of this area, the econDmics ,and feasibility aspects must be considered.

In a shDrt time, a much larger wDrk fDrce will be needed in the area, and it is important that these emplDyees ShDUld be transpDrted in and Dut of the port w,ith safety. It has been reported that on DccasiDns at certain tides there has been only 4 ft. 6 in. of water over the s'and bar, which is dangerous. Certain dredging wDrk has been carried out by the dredge Matthew Flinders Dn an experimental basis opposite the entrance. LDcal fishermen and others using the port have informed me that this wDrk has' been a failure because it has created a shelf on the sea -bed which gradually builds up the vDlume Df water. The sudden rise and faB 'Df the water dumps ships ontO' the sand bar and the rapid disappearance Df the water causes ships to' founder on the sand. A plan has been put forward to eliminate this prDblem and I believe that it cDuld be solved if the Public Works Department seriously examined the matter. Surely, the questiDn of finance should not be raised at this stage.

I wonder how much the Department is prepared to' spend to' save human lives. FrDm m'any aspects, the development of the port is impDrtant. The fishing industry is dependent on the ability of ships to' move in and


out of the port without hindrance. The management of a new processing fiactory, which has recently commenced operations, spent $780,000 on the erection of its plant. This industry requires 200 tons of fish each day to make it an economic proposition. The only way by which it can operate at present is to have a supply of frozen fish on hand; this is an expensive method of keeping the processing pliant functiDning successfully.

The port is si'tuated close to the oil and gas fields and the potential of the area leaves nO' doubt cDncerning its future. Any amount 0'f Imoney expended Dn improving the port at this stage wDuld be infinitesimal in comparisDn with the benefits which wDuld be derived by the area and the saving Df human life.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (IN Drthern PrDvince) .----1 prDpose to' rela te my remarks to the land settlement scheme at R0'chester, CDncerning which my colleague, Mr. Clarke, asked a ques,Non Dn nDtice tDday. I wish to' refer to the case of a landowner whose land has been acquired for this scheme. The tDtal area of the prDject embraces 7,000 acres, most of which was obtained by CDmpulsDry acquisitiDn. In several instances, land was acquired frDm prDperty Dwners whO' were settled in the district as sDldier settlers after the secDnd world war.

II'll the majority of cases, the landowners elected to' retain what is termed a retention area of from 100 to' 140 acres. Some settlers did this voluntarily and happily; others did SO' with less enthusiasm, although they have retained SDme pDrtiDn Df their land. In the case Df Mr. JDhn CDwan, the retentiDn area has nO'

permanent water supply. ObviDusly, a small area Df this type withDut a permanent and adequate supply Df irrigatiDn water is unsatisfactDry. Mr. CDwan has been allowed a temporary supply of water by the

State Rivers and Wiater Supply Commission, but I suggest to the appropriate Minister and the Government that the situation wbich e~ists is ,anomalous.

I hope the Government will investigate this matter because I believe ,an injustice is being done to' a landowner whO' has been virtually dispossessed of his land and his capacity to earn a living.

The Hon. W. G. FRY (HiginbDtham PrDvince) .-1 propose to rela1te my remarks to' the questiDn of local gDvernment. Many market gardeners in the HeathertO'n-Clarinda district have 'held land fiDr some years in what was a green belt or rural area. The land is currently used for fanning purpDses, but the landDwners are under tremendDus pressure at present because high prices are being offered by various and diverse extractive industry grDups. Land is being currently sDught at between $9,000 and $19,000 an acre. It is highly suitable for residential purposes and has a high potenHal as such; in fact, the authorities in the area would like the land to' be retained for this purpose. In order to make the land suitable fDr residential purposes, a great deal 'Of CD-'opera tiDn is needed frDm reSDurces outside the local gDvernment sphere. I refer pri'marily to' the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of WDrks, as municipali,ties are unable to' supply services such as sewerage, water supply, drainage systems and the necessary water m'ains. It wDuld appear that unless SDme assistance is given to' utilize the land to what wDuld be perhaps its optimum use, much Df this land may be thrown Dpen to' a usage which could impose a burden Dn the cDmmunity fo'" the next 50 years.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (MelbDurne West Province) .-On 24th S&ptember last, ,I asked the Minister of Agriculture what action was taken, or WDuld be taken, by the ExplDsives and Gas Examining Branch Df the Mines Department against a contractor whO' was 'working in the SpotswODd area laying gas mains and whO'


did not comply with the regula·tions in regard to explosives and detonator boxes. In reply, the ,Minister of Agriculture stated-

Following a report that a contractor who was working in Moresby-street, Spotswood, was keeping explosives and detonators in unlocked boxes, an inspector of explosives visited the work site on 21st August, 1968. On finding that, although the boxes were correctly marked with warning signs, they were not fitted with locks, he. directed that properly locked boxes should be obtained immediately. He returned next day and saw that they had been obtained. A warning was given that any subsequent departure from regulation provisions for the safeguarding of explosives would, if detected, result in prosecution.

I contend that an experienced inspector should have taken action to ensure that the contractor in question took the explosives and detonators with him upon completion of the work. After receiving the 'Minister's reply, I made further inqUiries. The Footscray City Council has taken up the matter with, and received a letter from, the Chief Inspector of Explosives. This reply concurs almost word for word with the reply furnished by the Minister of Agriculture to my question. It differs from the Minister's reply only in one respect as honorable members will gather from the following extracts:-

Of these two, one was in accord with all regulations regarding equipment required whilst the other had no locks on either explosives box or detonator box. I spoke to one Pietro Michielin who is ,a leading hand for the company and told him of what I had seen and he said that some of his empty explosives boxes had been stolen recently and he had only the ones that I saw. He undertook to get new ones with new locks.

Mr. White, the foreman of the project, was informed of my comments by Mr. Michielin and arranged to have the equipment bought up to standard required by regulations. I revisited the site today, Le. 22nd August, and found that all equipment was in correct order and was being used correctly.

Why do not inspectors carry out their responsibilities in a case such as this, where explosives are being used in a high density area through which children travel to the Footscray High School, the Spotswood State School, the Newport Primary School and to

several church schools? The investigation in this case commenced when a head master reported that a child in possession of a detonator had come to school. The report proved to be false, but on many occasions children do gain possession of detonators. Why did the departmental officer not inform the people concerned that the work must be discontinued and confiscate the explosives until padlocks were obtained?

I ask the Minister to refer this matter to the Chief Secretary to ensure that regulations governing the use of explosives and detonators are strictly adhered to.

The Hon. ARCHmALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) .-1 relate my comments to the Department of Agriculture. I am concerned at the plight of those who are engaged in the production of chicken meat. A large organization in New South Wales-I think it is Ingham Bros.has moved into Victoria and has achieved a certain amount of control over another organization-I think it is Golden Poultry. It is alleged that the British Tobacco company is behind Ingham Bros. In addition, a very powerful Queensland organization is connected with the industry. As a result of the operation of these organizations, the producers of chickens now find themselves cutting prices to a stage where they can no longer afford to remain in the industry. I believe that many of them face the prospect of appearing in the Bankruptcy Court.

I ask the Government to see whether something can be done to stabilize the production of chicken meat. A large section of the community is prepared to consume chicken meat, but if the unfortunate producer has to maintain starvation prices he will soon disappear and his property and production units will pass into the hands of the monopolistic organizations to which I have referred. Perhaps the Government, in preventing further inroads into the


industry, will display some of the courage shown by the Prime Minister of Australia in his attempts to prevent overseas interests from buying into Australian insurance companies. The breaking up of monopolies and the protection of the producers at the bottom would prove of great benefit.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (SouthEastern Province) .-1 find myself in agreement with practically everything that Mr. Todd has said. My party believes in private enterprise, but it has never supported unbridled monopolies or unfair trade practices such as have been occurring in the chicken industry.

We have witnessed a vicious price war between processors, who have been fighting to gain a bigger share of the market, regardless of the interests of the growers who are at the bottom of the industry. These processors, whilst reducing prices to the public, have been passing on the losses involved to the primary producers, the men on the land. Over a short period of years the poultry industry has changed from being quite a profitable one to being a loss industry. There have been fifteen price cuts within a very short period, and those price cuts have been brought about purely because of the price war between processors.

I know that the Minister of Agriculture is aware of the situation which has arisen. He has called conferences between processors on the one hand and growers on the other hand, and was instrumental in bringing about a conference between the Ministers and Departments, processors and grower organizations of four States. The conference was designed to seek rationalization and sensible cooperation within the industry and to avoid price cuts, for selfish ends, by one section of the industry at the expense of another and to restore stability and mutual

profitability. The attempts to rationalize the industry have not yet succeeded, and I am convinced that Gover.nment action' will be required to promote it. That is one of the reasons why I gave notice tonight of a Bill providing for a common contract within this industry. I realize that I cannot enlarge upon that now. The need is evident in an industry where processors who are moving towards monopoly control have been imposing their will on small growers, forcing them to accept adverse changes in conditions and reduced prices.

The Hon. S. R. McDoNALD.-The tomato growers are protected.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-The Bill of which I have given notice follows the lines of the Tomato Processing Industry (Uniform Agreement) Act. I believe there is some obligation on the part of the Government to protect producers in this industry in the same way as tomato growers are protected. There is a growing tendency towards monopoly control by Ingham Bros. in New South Wales, who can only be described as operators of the most ruthless order.

The Hon.D. G. ELUOT.-YOU must realize that Ingham Bros. and British Tobacco, together, own quite a number of companies, including Golden Poultry.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Inghams own 60 per cent. of Golden Poultry and British Tobacco owns 40 per cent. British Tobacco has left managerial control to Inghams. One of the strange features of this partnership agreement is that Golden Poultry, owned in partnership, cannot compete in New South Wales, although Inghams have reserved the right to dump their excess New South Wales production in Victoria. This dumping is the second aspect of the problem. Until this year, 40 per cent. of the Victorian market was supplied from New South Wales. At the moment, a much greater percentage of what


is sold in Victoria consists of excess production from New South Wales which is dumped here.

The Hon. D. G. ELLloT.-And which has a high moisture content.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-That is so. Not only must a basis which will ensure fair terms of trade in the industry be found, but also a basis which will prevent the dumping in one State at a loss of production from another. This will be very difficult because of section 92 of the Australian Constitution. However, I assure Mr. Swinburne, who interjected, that ways and means of bringing this about have been investigated. I have put forward some suggestions which I believe can be of assistance on this point.

There is a need to protect the small man in an industry in which a total sum of more than $15,000,000 is invested in Victoria. It is necessary to create stability in the industry as a whole, and to ensure fair trading terms. I hope the matter will be treated as being beyond party consideration. I am confident that the measures envisaged will be supported by honorable members of all parties.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North-Eastern Province) .---il relate my remarks to the Department of Health. Some five years ago, I had the pleasure of welcoming Dr. Lindell, chairman of the Hospitals and Charities Commission, when he visited the Ovens and Murray Home at Beechworth. It was hoped that arrangements could be made for certain modifications to be carried out at the homes, which are more than 100 years old, and which cater for more than 100 elderly citizens. The chairman of the Commission gave the committee an undertaking that it would be able to launch a progressive programme of remodelling the homes to provide well-deserved comfort for the old people. At first, very good progress was made and, within the first two years, a new ward was

built. The people concerned honoured Dr. Lindell by naming the new ward the John Lindell ward, and he opened it some three years ago.

It was next planned that false ceilings should be builtin the dormitories. Some of the ceilings are as high as 15 feet, and there is only one open fireplace in each dormitory. In winter, the dormitories are just ice boxes. It is unfortunately true that, in winter, many old people, particularly the men, fall ill and are confined to bed for two or three days in these " ice boxes ". Approval for the work was given and detailed plans and specifications were prepared for this next stage of the remodelling of the home which would cost about $104,000. The stage at which tenders could be called was reached.

I brought a deputation from the Ovens and Murray Home to meet the chairman of the Commission and his deputy in March of this year. The deputation was assured that, if the Government increased the amount of money allocated to the Commission in the financial year 1968-69, permission for the immedia te calling of tenders would be given. Since then, however, the committee has been informed that the aiInount of money made available to' the Commission was not increased and that, consequently, no new work could be done this year and tenders could nO't be called.

It is deplorable that our elderly citizens who have served this State well should, in their declining years, be compelled to put up with the conditions existing in the Ovens and Murray Home.

The Hospitals and Charities Commission has become the Cinderella authority of the Government. In terms 'Of poss,ible work program·mes, the allocation to' the CommissiO'n 'has gradually declined in recent ye:ars. The increases in allocations have not kept pa1ce with the increased cost structure which operates.


It is an indictment of all citizens that elderly people must live in the conditions which exist today in the Ovens and Murray Home; it is a disgrace to us as a nation. The conditions impose a great strain and hardship on those who live there. I appeal to the Minister of Health to give an undertaking that the promise made five years ago will be kept, that the remodelling programme will be executed during this financial year, and that permission for tenders to be called will be given. If the work goes on, not only will some comfort be provided for these deserving people, but some encouragement will be given to a band of C'om:m-itteemen who work in an honorary capacity to make the conditions in which these people live a little better than they are now.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT (Melbourne West Province) .-1 wish to refer to a question I asked the Minister of Health today concerning Able Sandblasting Company Ply. Ltd. of Sunshine. This company has been in operation for six months. Whilst I appreciate the answer given by the Minister, I am not happy with the treatment I received from his departmental officers. After receiving complaints from people in the area, I telephoned the Clean Air Section of the Department of Health, but the attention I received was appalling. In fact I am still awaiting a telephone call from a departmental officer in reply to my inquiry. If this is the type of courtesy and efficiency the Clean Air Section provides, a further examination of its activities should be undertaken. The section should inspect the Able Sandblasting company's premises. If an honorable member visits the area he will see sand coming out of the premises. An inspection of the equipment which the Clean Air Section required the 'company to install revealed that one of the inspection plates was fastened by only two nuts. Another inspection plate was hanging loose with dust coming out of the opening freely.

In one of the neighbouring premises, the EdcHf Engineering

Company makes agricultural equipment. Recently the company's workmen refused to work because of the dust. This company is very concerned about its high precision tools and the damage caused by the dust which blows in from next door. The people on the north side of the sandblasting works are also very concerned about the dust.

I am disturbed at the lack of respect and courtesy extended to me by the Clean Air Section of the Department of Health. As I mentioned, I am still awaiting a telephone call from an officer of that section. When I rang the section at 2.35 p.m. on the 23rd September, I was informed that the gentleman concerned was on leave and that a Mr. Leroy would telephone me. I am inclined to believe that he is 'a fictitious person because I have been waiting for more than a week for him to' ring me. I ask that something be done to step up the efficiency of the Clean Air Section of the Department, so that it may carry out its work p~operly.

Another question I wish to raise concerns myoId friends of the Railway Department in their ivory castle in Spencer-street. These people are dictators in their own right. Earlier today I asked the Minister of Agriculture-

Will the Victorian Railways Commissioners place large diagonally-slanting strip reflectorized hazard markers on the rail gates at Blackshaw'S road cr.ossing, Newport; if so, when; if not, why? The Minister furnished the following answer:-

The Commissioners do not pr.oPose t.o place such markers on these gates. In accordance with standard practice the gates are painted white and are fitted with a red light at night.

I understand ,that an Armco safety guard rail .of a light silvery colour has been provided on the Melbourne and Blackshaw'S road corner of the crossing, and that, following a suggestion by the Commissioners, the street lighting at the crossing has recently been improved by the c.ouncil.

It states that the Armco safety guard rail of a light silvery colour referred to in the Minister's reply is a galvanized Armco rail. This is also a


traffic hazard. Mr. Kimber, the electrical engineer of the City of Williamstown, confirmed tonight that the City Council installed the lights for safety purposes of its own volition and without reference from the Railway Department. I have raised this matter previously and now refer to a letter which I received from the Chief Secretary dated the lIth June, 1968. I could show honorable members in· the file how the Railway Department and the Traffic Commission have misled the Chief Secretary, but I had the courtesy to take this up directly with the honorable gentleman so that he would not be misinformed. The Minister wrote to me on 11 th June as follnws : -

I refer to previous correspondence concerning road hazards caused at the intersection of Blackshaw's and Melbourne roads, Newport.

I have had the Traffic Commission examine this location as promised.

As a result the Commission has suggested to the Railway Depafltment that it take urgent action to mark all cover posts at the crossing with large diagonally slanting striped reflectorized hazard markers as an interim measure pending the relocation of the problem post to which the south western gate is attached.

Further, the Commission believes that the crossing should be widened to the full kerb to kerb approach width of Melbourne-road and the existing hand-operated swing gates replaced by boom barriers. The recent amendment to the Country Roads Act permits boom barriers to be installed to relieve both hazard and congestion. In the opinion ·of the Commission, both these factors are present at this location and Williamstown council should approach the Railway Department with a view to having this action taken. In these circumstances the council would be probably called upon to pay one third of the cost of this work.

At the same time, if this work is undertaken, the pavement in Melbourne-road on its northern approach to the crossing should be widened to full kerb width for a few hundred feet back from the crossing in order to develop the full capacity provided by the widened railway crossing. This road widening should not be undertaken until the gates are widened otherwise extremely hazardous conditions would result.

I hope that this action will eliminate Ithe frustrations and dangers at this very worrying location. The hazard signs have not been erected, but I pay tribute to the council's electrical engineer, Mr. Kimber,

Session 1968.-16

for erecting the illumination lights which the lazy people in Spencerstreet would not provide. However, there is no illumination south of the intersection. I now ask: Does the Railway Department intend to carry out the promises that the Chief Secretary gave to me on the 11 th June, nr is it necessary to take the maUer up again in the House? I ask the railway administratnrs to get off their seats in their ivory castle at Spencer-street and do the job they were asked to do, as mentioned by the Chief Secretary in his letter to me dated the 11 th June.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) .----1 wish to refer to the problem of unmanned railway stations which has been with us for the past six years. Representations have been made by various women's organizations and other bodies concerning these unmanned railway stations, but nothing has been done. In fact, the situation is worse than ever. I think it is sheer audacity on the part of the Government to treat the people in the metropolitan area in this manner. The railways belong to the people and not to the Government. If the present Government cannot run the railways efficiently it should get out of office and let the Labor Party take over.

The closing times for some of the suburban railway stations amazes me. If honorable members peruse Hansard over the week -end they 'will see the hours at which these stations are unmanned, and I think they will agree with me that they are ridiculous. There are 70 stations in the Melbourne Province. The Montague station is unmanned all day on a Sunday; the Albert Park station is unmanned from 5.30 p.m.; the Middle Park station from 5.37 p.m.; and the Windsor station from 5.52 p.m. I ask the Minister of Transport to take action to alleviate this problem. Honorable members are familiar with the hue and cry that went on when the bashings were occurring. We do not hear a great deal about such things now


but they could occur again. If the people do not receive some redress, the Government should resign. The least it could do would be to examine the position and make an attempt to man the stations for longer hours to' meet the convenience of people who use the railways. It is frequently asserted that the railways are running at a loss, but I consider that if more suburban stations were manned at night patronage would increase. I do not know how members of the travelling public buy tickets now. I suppose if a person is travelling on a train without a ticket at night and he is detected by the "flying gang" he is prosecuted. That position should not be tolerated in the metropolitan area.

The Hon. S. R. McDONALD (Northern Province) .-1 refer to the closing of the Kilmore-Heathcote railway line, despite the valiant efforts of the honorable members representing the Bendigo Province. The Transport Regulation Board has conducted an inquiry into the position and has defined an area along the line within which the usual Transport Regulation Board regulations will not apply. However. in determining this area the Board has omitted an area of land north of Heathcote in the Shire of Waranga, which includes the properties of a number of people who have in the past been regular users of the rail freight services from Heathcote for the transport of wool, superphosphate and grain. I take this opportunity of asking the Minister of Transport to give sympathetic con-sideration to extending this area north west to include this portion of the Shire of Waranga to which I have referred.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-1 inform Mr. Bradbury that I am fully aware of the position concerning the Ovens and Murray Home for the Aged, and I 'agree that the situation there is critical. This is one of the most urgent jobs to be undertaken by my Department, and

it will be proceeded with at the earliest opportunity. I do not agree with Mr. Bradbury's suggestion that in the allocation of loan funds the Hospitals and Charities Commission has become the Cinderella Department. In our estimates this year we applied for an allocation of just under $16,000,000 and to keep our current works programme going, we needed something in the vicinity of $12,000,000. Our allocation for this year is $12,540,000, which is a large sum of money. If Mr. Bradbury travels throughout Victoria he will see hospital works that have been completed and others that are under construction under the current works programme. I am still hopeful that the work required to be done at the Ovens and Murray Home for the Aged can be included in the works programme for this year. In the programme of new works, it is a top priority job. It is not certain that the job will not be started this year, because I am hopeful that the money required for it will be made available as a result of our present deliberations concerning the allocation of the small surplus that has been made available to us this year over and above what is required for current work. I am looking closely at the position, and I hope the pro,iect can be started during the current financial year.

I can only apologize to Mr. Knight for the discourtesy that possibly was shown to him from an officer of the Clean Air Section. I regret that Mr. Knight. having contacted the section more than a week ago. has found it necessary to raise the matter in this Chamber tonight instead of speaking to me last week or on Monday or Tuesday of. this week. I have taken note of what he has said, and I can assure him that an officer of the Clean Air Section will look at the problem during this week.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-1 am sure that the Committee will pardon me if I do not refer to something relating to my province, but I want to direct


the attention of the Minister of Health to quite an urgent situation which has arisen with regard to the collection of patients' fees in hospitals. Several attempts have recently been made by the Government to' amend the Hospitals and Charities Act in a satisfactory way, but all have failed miserably. The result has been that thousands of dollars which ought to have been collected by patients from insurance companies that are willing to pay are now in jeopardy. I commend this problem to the Minister of Health for immediate attention.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture).-This is the moment I have been waiting for since 4.45 p.m. This has been an interesting debate which has taken all sorts of turns and has at times stirred up the House. Probably it has done a lot of good. Many m'atters have been referred to by honorable members. and the reports of the speeches will be extracted from Hansard and dealt with by the respective 'Ministers.

I should like to add one or two comments to the references by Mr. Todd and l\1r. Hunt to the chicken meat industry which, at present, is at a very low ebb economically. It would be true to say that when the original management was administering Golden Poultry Farming Industr.ies Ltd. the relationship between the company and the broiler growers was excellent. I think Mr. Hunt will agree with that statement. Since the company has been taken over by Inghams and British Tobacco Co. (Aust.) Ltd. the relationship between the management and the contract growers has heen at an all time low. I have endeavoured to do something about the position. With the aoproval of the Australian Agricultural Council a conference was convened in Sydney. It was attended by four State Ministers of Agriculture and the Directors of Agriculture from the four States, as well as by representatives of the processors and the growers. I was chairman of the conference, and I can assure honorable members that

it was a torrid four or five hours. One amazing thing came out of the conference. When I indicated to the conference-I do not think I am revealing anything I should not-that I had in mind recommending to the Government that there should be an inquiry into the industry to determine who was associated with it and to examine the contract system and the economics of the industry it was stated that the pressure would be off in six months' time. The person who said that was apparently working on the basis that the seven large companies which he named had conferred and agreed to increase the price of poultry meat to the consumer in order that they might get out of their financial difficulties. It was believed that, in doing so, they would increase the price to the broiler growers or the contractors. That has not yet occurred; consequently, the industry is still in a most difficult position.

I have previously indicated that the question of moisture content in poultry would have to be the subject of legislation. Tests have revealed that up to approximately 20 per cent. of the weight of a chicken is moisture. The Australian Agricultural Council considered the matter, which was raised by the South Australian Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Bywaters, and it was agreed that South Australia should prepare a Bill to cover the matter. However, considerable drafting difficulties were experienced. Consequently Tasmania went it alone and amended its food and drug regulations to provide that not more than 5 per cent. of the total weight of the chicken could be moisture content.

As I understand the position, action was to be taken against a particular company, but I understand that when the matter was examined by the Tasmanian Law Department, it was found that the legislation could not be made to stick. The Victorian Director of Agriculture, Dr. Wishart, is now considering the problem. He has visited South Australia, and we are now trying to have the


necessary details incorporated in a Bill. American legislation provides for an 8 per cent. moisture content on interstate transactions. As I understand the position, there is no real control of poultry sold within the State. Inspectors must be placed in the processing works to ensure the 8 per cent. uptake. Therefore, this would be a costly operation. Victoria is trying to work from the other end; we hope the drip thaw will provide the answer. From certain tests that were carried out, it was found that not only the interstate people but also people within Victoria were in trouble.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-A higher proportion of the interstate birds contain more moisture.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-That may be so, but 40 per cent. of the chickens sold in Victoria come from New South Wales and Queensland. The establishment of a marketing board, which has been suggested, will not solve the problem. Following a conference in Sydney, a committee was established which included representatives of the Department, the processors and the broiler growers. Several meetings have been held, but it appears they will not arrive at a satisfactory basis for agreement on a uniform contract for Victoria.

I was responsible for the present contract in relation to tomatoes, but a contract in that form cannot be applied to the chicken industry. Both sections of the industry are now deadlocked. The question of the moisture content of the chickens has been made a first priority in Victoria. and I hope a Bill will be introduced during this session~l period to give some relief to the people in the industry.

I should like to see an inquiry into the whole of the poultry m'eat industry, and I have not yet thrown that suggestion overboard. If the companies are not prepared to be reasonable and do the right thing by the growers, an inquiry may yet be held.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) .-I compliment the Government on this occasion for its proposal to introduce a Bill to benefit the growers who have been at the mercy of the companies.

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Why say "on this occasion" ; surely this is not an isolated case?

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON.-The Victorian Farmers Union has very firm views on this matter and would be behind the Government on this proposal. The Country Party would also support a measure along those lines.

The clause was agreed to.


MELBOURNE SAILORS' HOME (POWERS OF TRUSTEES) BILL. This BiB was received from the

Asselmbly. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W.

Garrett).-I have examined this Bill, and am of opinion that it is a private Bilt

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Eduoation).--In another place, this Bill was alisO' ruled to' be a private BiB, but was treated as ,a publk Bill. I propose that the same p'rocedure be ,f.oUowed in thi,s House. The1refore, I move-

That this Bill be dealt with as a public Bill.

The 'motion was ,agreed to.

On the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education), the Bill was read a first time.

WEST MELBOURNE LANDS BILL.

This BiB was received from the Assembly and, on the 'motion of the Hon. R. J. HAMER (M1inister for LO'cal Government), was read a first time.

The House adjourned at 1.14 a.m. (Wednesday).

Traffic [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Regulation. 405

~t!lililatiut Alilitmbly. Tuesday, October 1, 1968.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) took the chair at 4.4 p.m., and read the prayer.

CITY ABATTOIRS. LEASE OF PREMISES.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked the Premier-

Whether he is aware of the intention of the Melbourne City Council to lease the City Abattoirs to a private business undertaking?

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The answer is "Yes".

TRAFFIC REGULATION. ACCIDENTS INVOLVING MOTOR CYCLES:

FATALITIES: INJURIES.


1. How many accidents involving motor cycles and motor scooters were reported each year since 1962, and this year to date?

2. How many fatalities occurred during the above-mentioned period as a result of such accidents?

3. In how many of these accidents the motor cycle or motor scooter rider was(a) the holder of a learner's licence; or (b) the holder of a probationary licence?

4. In how many of these accidents pillion passengers were involved?

5. Whether the causes of these accidents have been determined; if so, how many cases show that the fault lay with-( a) the motor cycle or scooter riders; or (b) motor car drivers?

6. In how many cases road intersections or road curves were a factor in these accidents?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-As the answers comprise mainly statistics, I suggest that with the leave of the House they be incorporated in Hansard without being read.


1. The tabulation included in this answer shows the number of fatal and injury accidents occurring since 1962 with the exception of 1968, information for which is not

available. involving scooters.

Year.

1963

1964

1965

1966

1967

· . ..

..

· .

· .

Victori:an casualty accidents motor cycles including motor

Fatal. Personal Total. Injury.

24 521 545

12 453 465

16 426 442

16 406 422

13 442 455

2. The tabulation below shows the fatalities which occurred in these accidents. Number of casualties in accidents involving motor cycles including motor scooters.

Motor Cyclist. Pillion Rider.

Year. Personal Personal Fatal. Injury. Fatal. Injury. -----------

1963 · . 18 487 4 45

1964 · . 13 422 - 40

1965 · . 13 392 Not available.

1966 · . 15 366 Not available.

1967 .. 14 416 Not available.

3. The information is not available. 4. See answer to question No.2. 5. No. 6. This information has not been

analysed.

TRADING BANKS. SAFEGUARDS AGAINST HOLD-UPS:

CONVICTIONS.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. Whether the Government has considered the necessity for trading banks to safeguard such institutions 'against hold-ups, and to afford bank staffs adequate physical protection in the event of hold-ups; if so, whether it has any proposal or proposed legislation to reduce such dangers?

2. How many persons have been convicted of indiotable offences arising out of hold-ups of banks during the last three years?


1. Conferences were held in 1967 between senior police officers and representatives, at senior management level, of all banks and

406 Insurance [ASSEMBLY.] Companies.

representatives of the Australian Bankers Association and the Australian Bank Officials Association to formulate plans to safeguard bank premises and minimize any danger to members of bank staffs in the event of a hold-up. Arising from these discussions, a numbers of security measures, which it is deemed advisable not to mention, have been implemented. These measures are aimed at reducing the incidence of holdups and breakings in respect of bank prem~ses and danger to bank officers. It is not proposed to introduce legislation in this regard.

2. 1965 5 1966 6 1967 13 1968 (to date) 10

Mr. TURNBULL.-The numbers are increasing.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH.-These are convictions. In practically every instance, the police have been successful in obtaining a conviction.

INSURANCE COMPANIES. BUSINESS UNDERTAKEN: MOTOR CAR

THIRD-PARTY INSURANCE: ACTIVITIES OF STATE MOTOR CAR INSURANCE OFFICE. Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne) asked

the Chief Secretary-l. How many companies are at present

licensed to undertake insurance business (other than life) in Victoria?

2. How many of these companies remain on the list of authorized insurers for motor car third-party insurance?

3. How many companies have withdrawn from, or been added to, the authorized list during each of the last three years?

4. What approximate percentage of the total of third-party risk business is now being underwritten by the State Motor Car Insurance Office, as compared with that of all other insurers, and what were the comparative figures at 30th June, 1955?

5. What .the profit or loss of that office was during the last financial year on(a) third-party business; and (b) comprehensive motor insurance policies?

6. On what date, and by what over-all percentages in each instance (calculated on private car metropolitan rates), third-party premium rates have been increased since July, 1955?

. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answers comprise mainly statistics, and with the leave of the House I suggest that they be incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


l. Companies licensed under the Stamps Act 1958 number 249.

2. Thirty-six. 3.

Number of Companies on

-- Authorized List.

Withdrew. Added.

Year ended 30th June, 1966 4 1

Year ended 30th June, 1967 1 .. Year ended 30th June, 1968 7 ..

Tot 12 1

4. As at 30th June, 1955-19.7 per cent. As at 30th June, 1968-38.3 per cent.

5. Accounts are expected to be finalized in approximately one month, but I anticipate-

(a) A considerable loss on third-party business; and

(b) a small profit on comprehensive motor business.

6. (a) Date. 1st October, 1955 1st February, 1963

Per cent. Increase. 59.6

1st October, 1965 15th August, 1966 1st March, 1967 1st July, 1968

(b) Overall. 1st October, 1955, to 1st

July, 1968

13.6 20.5

9.4 4.4

15.8

189.9

TRAFFIC COMMISSION. TRAFFIC LIGHTS: SUBSIDIES:

PRIORITIES.


1. How many individual requests the Traffic Commission has received for financial assistance to provide traffic lights?

2. What total amount of financial subsidy is required by the Commission to provide all facilities requested?

3. What amount is provided to the Commission for such purposes this financial year?

4. Whether traffic light subsidies are allocated to municipalities on a priority basis; if so, how priorities are determined?

Professional [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Fishermen. 407

5. What position the Princes HighwayCox-road intersection subsidy request holds on the priority list?

6. When such subsidy will be available?


1. Forty-six municipalities lodged a total of 235 applications this financial year.

2. The sum of $741,400, but $100,000 of this amount was in respect of applications which were not eligible for subsidy.

3. An amount of $140,000. 4. Applications for subsidy are evaluated

on a cost-benefit basis taking into consideration the potential for relief of congestion and for accident reduction. Using this evaluation as a guide only and taking all the factors at each location into consideration, the Commission then makes its recommendations for subsidy allocations.

5. There is no continuing priority list. Each review of funds available to meet outstanding applications is made as set out in answer No.4; -taking into consideration all the factors and until the next review is held in March, 1969, the likelihood of a subsidy being allocated cannot be determined.

6. See answer No.5.

PROFESSIONAL FISHERMEN. RECOGNITION AS PRIMARY PRODUCERS.


Why professional fishermen are refused recognition as primary producers, thus debarring them from receiving benefits in relation to motor vehicle registration concessions, &c.?


As I have already indicated to the honorable member and to the honorable member for Geelong, this is a complex problem because many fishermen work part-time, and, even if fishing is regarded as primary production, problems arise as to whether a fisherman is substantially engaged in primary production although he may hold one or more licences under the existing fishing legislation or under the proposed legislation which is before the House.

In any event the concessional rate under the Motor Car Act for registration of a vehicle would apply only to a vehicle solely used in the fishing industry. The Director of Fisheries proposes to discuss this matter at a meeting of fishermen to be held in Melbourne later this week.

Perhaps that should refer to delegates from the professional fishermen.

It may be, as a result of this meeting, that I will be able to supply further information to the honorable member and to other honorable members who are concerned with the problem.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. POLICE STATIONS IN GEELONG

DISTRICT: WORKS PROGRAMME.


1. What improvement works are planned for police stations in the Geelong district?

2. When it is expected such works will be carried out?


1 and 2. Geelong.-Several alternative proposals as to ways and means of providing additional office accommodation are at present being examined.

Geelong East; Geelong North; Geelong South; and Norlane.-Estimates of cost to carry out routine renovations to these respective premises have been obtained from the Public Works Department. Arrangements are in hand with that Department with a view to having the works carried out during the current financial year, subject to availability of finance.

Geelong South (Motor Registration Office) .-An estimate of cost to provide additional toilet accommodation has been obtained from the Public Works Department and it is anticipated that this work will be carried out during the current financial year.

PRISONS DIVISION. FAIRLEA PRISON: AGE OF BUILDINGS:

FIRE HAZARD: SAFETY MEASURES.


1. What is the age of the buildings used at Fairlea prison?

2. Whether he received a report as to the degree of danger existing there under certain conditions?

3. What special safety measures are taken in respect of any fire hazard that may exist at Fairlea?


1. Some of the buildings were built when used as part of the Yarra Bend Mental Hospital many years ago. These have all been renovated several times. Their exact ages are not known.

2. Reports have been received from time to time concerning fire danger.

408 Prisons [ASSEMBLY. J Division.

3. Fairlea prison is connected to the fire brigade by a special fire alarm located at the front gate. There are six fire boxes with hoses located at various points. There are fourteen fire extinguishers located around the buildings where necessary. There are three fire buckets in every dormitory and work-room where prisoners are assembled.

FAIRLEA PRISON: STAFF: SALARIES: PRISONERS.


l. What is the authorized and actual strength, respectively, of prison officers stationed at Fairlea prison?

2. What are their-( a) classifications; (b) rates of pay; and (c) conditions of employment?

3. How many prisoners were at Fairlea at 30th September, 1968?


l. Authorized strength, 26. Actual strength, 25 (one senior prison

officer (F) short).

2.

(a) Classification.

Female Staff:

1 Governor.. .. 1 Deputy Governor .. 1 Chief prison officer 2 Senior prison officers 11 Prison officers 1 Nurse .. .. .. 1 Domestic economy instructor 1 Dressmaking instructor .. 1 Handcraft instructor

Male Staff:

1 Senior prison officer 5 Prison officers

(b) Salary.

$

3,514-3,623 2,759-2,972 2,383 2,195-2,269 2,010-2,121 2,611-2,972 2,121-2,269 2,121-2,269 2,121-2,269

3,251-3,466 2,738-2,963

(c) As laid down by the Public Service Board.

3. On 27th September, 1968 there were 60 prisoners at Fairlea.

PENTRIDGE GAOL: STAFF: SALARIES: RECRUITMENT.


l. What is the authorized and actual strength, respectively, of prison officers stationed at Pentridge prison?

2. What are their-( a) classifications; (b) rates of pay; and (c) conditions of employment?

3. How staff are recruited?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answers consist of a series of statistics, and I seek leave for their incorporation in Hansard without being read.


l. Authorized strength, 330. Actual strength, 322 (seven prison

officers and one engineer -short) .

2.

(a) Classification.

1 Governor .. 1 Deputy Governor 3 Governor, grade I. 3 Principal prison officers 18 Chief prison officers 37 Senior prison officers 228 Prison officers 1 Engineer .. 1 Electrical supervisor 18 Overseers 1 Senior hospital attendant 10 Hospital attendants 1 Controller of stores 1 Assistant (M), grade IV. 4 Assistants (M), grade II. 2 Assistants (M), grade I.

(b) Salary.

$

6,302-6,596 5,115-5,365 4,365-4,490 4,119-4,365 3,683-3,792 3,251-3,466 2,738-2,963 3,901-4,365 3,038-3,466 2,963-4,365 3,466-3,683 3,038-3,358 4,546-4,832 3,144-3,251 2,814-2,890 2,510-2,700

(c) Conditions of employment as laid down by the Public Service Board.

3. Staff are recruited by advertisements in the da!Jy press and tested and interviewed at the institute of social welfare before final selection.

PENTRIDGE GAOL: DETECTION DEVICE.


l. When the system known as the "magic eye" was installed at Pentridge Gaol, Coburg?

2. What was the cost of-( a) the unit; and (b) its installation?

3. Whether any additional money has been spent on improvements to this unit; if so, how much?

4. Whether the unit has proved to be successful as a detector; if not, why?

Youth Training [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Centres. 409


1. 19th August, 1958. 2. The "magic eye" was installed on a

trial basis only. It was never satisfactory and was removed by the supplier. No payment was ever made for the unit.

3. No. 4. No. It was unsatisfactory.

YOUTH TRAINING CENTRES. CAPACITIES: INMATES: STAFF:

SALARIES.


1. What are the capacities of each youth training centre in Victoria?

2. What was the number of inmates in each centre .at 30th September, 1968?

3. What is the authorized and actual strength, respectively, of staff at each centre?

4. What are the rates of pay and conditions of employment?

5. How staff are recruited?

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-The answers are statistical, and I seek leave for their incorporation in Hansard without my reading them.


1. Capacity: Turana, 284; Abbotsford, 30; Winlaton, 104; Oakleigh, 25; Malmsbury, 112; Bayswater, 48; Langi Kal Kal, 112; Morning Star, 47.

2. Actual inmates as at 21st September, 1968: Turana, 250; Abbotsford, 30; Winlaton, 75' Oakleigh, 20; Malmsbury, 100; Baysw~ter, 60; Langi Kal Kal, 81; Morning Star, 51.

Bayswaterand Morning Star youth training centres are ~bove. capacity becal;lse they each took additional mmates to assIst after the recent fire at Turana.

3.

Statutory Youth Training Centres.

Turana

Winlaton

Malmsbury

Langi Kal Kat

Authorized Staff

Strength.

151

73

41

34

Actual Staff

Strength.

149

73

40

34

Staff of Abbotsford, Oakleigh, Bayswater and Morning Star youth training centres is a matter for the managements of the charitable organizations concerned.

4. (a)

RATES OF PAy-STAFF, STATUTORY YOUTH TRAINING CENTRES.

Position.

Assis.tant (male), administra-tive

Assistant (female), grade I. Assistant (male), grade II. Assistant (male), grade IV. Carpenter .. Chauffeur .. Commercial instructress, Win-

laton Cook (female) Cook (female), assistant, Win-

laton Cook (female) ,Winlaton Cook (female), Sunshine Cook (female), senior Cook (male), assistant Cook (male)

Annual Salary Rate*

$

1,132-2,677 941-2,047

2,814-2,890 3,1~,251 2,662-2,963 2,386-2,5~

3,079-3,187 1,203-2,010

1,892-1,928 1,973~2,OlO 1,892-Z~01O 2,047-2,269 2,314-2,586 2,624-2,852 2,12i-2~269 Cookery instructor (female)

Cookery instructqr (male)., Langi Kal Kal . 2,77E)-:.2',963

Domestic .. 1,070-1;820 Dressmaking instructor (fe-. . :l!·j, ill

male) Farm manager, Langi Kal Kal Fireman Gardener, grade I. " Gardener, instructor, Turana General assistant General reliever (female) Housekeeper Kitchenman Laundress .. Labourer Laundress, senior Laundry instructor Laundry foreman Laundryman M~chanic Mechanic, senior Painter, instructor Patrolman, Winlaton Seamstress Seamstress, senior Shorthand writer and typist,

grade I. .. Shorthand writer and typist,

grade II. Shorthand writer and typist,

senior Sister, Winlaton Storeman, grade I. .. Storeman, grade II. .. Storekeeper, Turana Superintendent (female),

laton Win-

Trade instructor (female), arts and crafts, Winlaton ..

2,121-2,269 3,683-3,901 2,314-2,586

969-,.2A91 2,776....;2·,963 . 969":'2,314 '941-1,928 2,34~2,497 2,143:"'2,418 1,892~1~928 2,013..;...2,:278 2,010-2,047 2,944-3,093 2,944-3,093 2,242-2,350 2,738-3,038 2,963-3,251 3,358-3,792 2,242-2,386 1,856-1,928 2,010-2,047

1,145-2,232

1,238-2,345

2,535-2,611 2,611-2,972 2,206-2,472 2,314-2,662 2,548-2,814

5,278-5,589

3,079-3,296

410 Municipalities. LASSEMBLY.] Municipalities.

RATES OF PAy,;"",-STAFF, STATUTORY YOUTH TRAINING CENTREs-continued.

Position.

Trade instructor (female) , cookery and home management

Trade instruotor (male) Typist (female), grade I. Typist (female), grade II. Ward sister .. Youth officer (female) Youth officer (female), senior Youth officer (female), chief Youth officer (female), ,princi-

pal .. Youth officer (male) Youth officer (male), senior .. Youth officer (male), chief " Youth officer (male) principal Superintendent (male),

Turana, class OP.22 Deputy superintendent (male), , class OP.18 Superintendent (male), class

OP.21 Assistant superintendent, class

OP.15 ,

Annual Salary Rate·

$

3,079-3,296 3,358-3,792 1,060-2,121 1,129-2,232 2,611-2,865 2,010-2,121 2,195-2,269 2,383

2,865-3,079 2,586-2,814 2,963-3,144 3,358-3,466 3,792-4,010

6,581

5,038-5,704

6,290

4,486-5,038 • Includes allowance under Regulation 87.

(b) Conditions of employment as laid down by the Public Service Board.

5. Staff are recruited by advertisements in the daily press.

MUNICIPALITIES. PAYMENTS

BOARD: PLAN.

TO COUNTRY RELIEF UNDER

ROADS HYLAND

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gipps-land South) asked the Minister of Public Works-

What municipalities have been relieved of payments to the Country Roads Board on account of the Hyland plan, giving in each instance the amount involved and the percentage of the debt to the Board which has been relieved?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer is in the form of a long stat.istkal return, and I seek leave for its incorporation in Hansard without being read.


The following schedule shows:-1. Municipalities which have been granted

relief from contributions to permanent works loan expenditure as a result of the application of section 32 of the Country Roads Act (Hyland plan).

2. The amount of the relief granted to each municipality.

3. In respect of each municipality the relief granted expressed as a percentage of the sum of the contributions due by the muniCipality in the period 1932-33 to 1967-68 inclusive.

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. RELIEF PROVIDED UNDER SECTION 32 COUNTRY

ROADS ACT TO MUNICIPALITIES FROM CONTRIBUTIONS TO PERMANENT WORKS EXPENDITURE.

Municipality.

Bairnsdale DivisionAvon Shire .. Baimsdale Shire Omeo Shire Orbost Shire Sale City Tambo Shire

Ballarat DivisionArarat Shire Ararat City .. Avoca Shire Ballan Shire Ballaarat City Ballarat Shire Bungaree Shire Buninyong Shire Creswick Shire Daylesford Borough Glenlyon Shire Grenville Shire Lexton Shire Newstead Shire Ripon Shire Talbot Shire Tullaroop Shire

Benalla DivisionBeechworth Shire Benalla Shire Bright Shire Chiltern Shire Euroa Shire Goulburn Shire Mansfield Shire Nathalia Shire Oxley Shire " Rutherglen Shire Seymour Shire Shepparton City Shepparton Shire Towong Shire Tungamah Shire Upper Murray Shire .. Violet Town Shire Wangaratta City Wangaratta Shire Wodonga Shire Yackandandah Shire .. Yarrawonga Shire

Relief. Percentage.

$ %

78,209 63,046

105,326 147,934

4,166 102,896

65,538 7,120

34,870 45,137

1,328 8,702

11,907 36,960

489 3,276

24,155 16,951

1,995 9,596

52,391 1,751

30,291

33,934 94,082 52,052 9,341

90,588 38,076 67,087 49,836 68,698 27,479 36,668 10,499

156,330 115,701 120,993 75,180 75,186 24,166 54,976 37,573 98,503 33,610

80·9 80·3 90·4 86·0 84'9 87·9

78'7 77'2 83'6 85'3 85'7 84'5 88'9 85·1 76'0 92'3 90·9 87'5 85·8 80·5 84·9 97·5 88'4

88'0 82'6 85'7 86·3 77'3 84'3 83'4 84·0 88'8 86'7 87·1 83'4 88·8 85'0 85·2 88'4 89·1 86·2 88'2 85'4 86·8 89'8

Municipalities. [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Municipalities. 411

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD-continued.

Municipality. Relief. Percentage.

-------~--I-----I---

Bendigo DivisionBendigo City Bet Bet Shire Castlemaine City Charlton Shire Cohuna Shire Deakin Shire East Loddon Shire Echuca City .. Gordon Shire Huntly Shire Inglewood Borough Kerang Shire Korong Shire Mcivor Shire MaIdon Shire Marong Shire Mildura Shire Metcalfe Shire Mildura City Rochester Shire Rodney Shire .. Strathfieldsaye Shire .. Swan Hill Shire Walpeup Shire Waranga Shire Wycheproof Shire

Dandenong DivisionAlexandra Shire Bass Shire Berwick Shire Broadford Shire Broadmeadows City Buln Buln Shire Chelsea City Cranbourne Shire Dandenong City Doncaster and Temple-

stowe City Eltham Shire Flinders Shire Frankston City Healesville Shire Kilmore Shire Korumburra Shire Lilydale Shire Mornington Shire Nunawading City Phillip Island Shire Pyalong Shire Ringwood City Sherbrooke Shire Upper Yarra Shire Warragul Shire Waverley City Whittlesea Shire Wonthaggi Borough Yea Shire ..

$

10,977 11,210 2,156

124,072 84,525 73,763 43,925 23,235 26,390 39,435

76 58,169 52,538 20,268 13,656 56,544

134,475 6,992

11,746 94,944

146,298 3,885

141,497 125,819 75,927 91,907

43,328 201,045 129,346

4,345 10,773

180,647 37,916

112,795 19,630

6,685 71,769

126,867 80,273 48,420

7,734 217,866 203,206

30,880 3,122 9,142 1,437

19,178 106,566 68,696

155,213 14,581 81,981 14,125 44,665

75'5 90'8 76'6 90'8 84'5 83'1 84'1 87'0 83'4 98'6 85'4 87'5 88'4 91'6 85'6 85'9 89'4 80"3 83'7 86'7

'87'2 92'0 95·1 97'7 86'7 86·1

84·8 87'5 88'3 89·2 85'9 86·7 84·0 88·1 77·5

43·1 92'6 86·1 82'4 92'7 93·6 83·7 90'9 87'3 49'7 81'8 87·1 83'2 89·1 93'2 86·5 28·6 85'7 94·5 88·4

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD-Continued.

Municipality.

Geelong DivisionBacchus Marsh Shire .. Bannockburn Shire BarrabooI Shire Bellarine Shire Bulla Shire ., Colac Shire .. Corio Shire .. Geelong City GeeIong West City Gisborne Shire Kyneton Shire Leigh Shire .. Melton Shire Newham and Woodend

Shire Newton City Otway Shire Romsey Shire South Barwon Shire .. WincheIsea Shire

Horsham DivisionArapiles Shire Birchip Shire Dimboola Shire Donald Shire DunmunkIe Shire Horsham City Kaniva Shire Kara Kara Shire Karkarooc Shire Kowree Shire Lowan Shire St. Arnaud Town Stawell Shire Stawell Town Warracknabeal Shire Wimmera Shire

Metropolitan DivisionAltona Shire Box Hill City Brighton City Brunswick City Camberwell City Caulfield City Coburg City Collingwood City Essendon City Fitzroy City Footscray City Hawthorn City Heidelberg City KeHor City Kew City Malvern City Melbourne City Moorabbin City Mordialloc City Northcote City Oakleigh City

Relief. Percentage.

$

36,860 I 12,734 44,972

2,322 40,341 94,843

121,366 65,942 12,344 12,835 14,973 29,894 25,880

46,933 12,272

, 128,863 18,479 38,656

190.128

49,212 48,617

129,676 87,306

145,024 20,774

111,728 119,027 95,458 68,786

134,075 1,640

83,963 8,117

98,739 51,636

72,696 I 15,478 1,440 1,164 1,010 1,496

14,584 52,204

1,649 2,164

45,282 1,206

17,283 2,149

38,062 4,609

10,393 11,586 34,627

1,533 5,991

%

81'1 76'1 82'9 78'1 88'6 85'3 86'9 83-7 83'3 87'2 87'1 82·4-85'6

88'0 83'4 96'7 89'5 84~1 91'5

85'3 94'5 84'9 86:1 85·7 80·'0 85:1 89'9 91'9 88·() 83'3 98:9 88'5 88'2 85'2 83'4

49'7 18·8 7'0 2'4

20'7 78'6 15·1 54'3 4·0

51'9 59'3 78·2 18'4 79'3 50·2 8'5

76'6 9'3

63'7 9'6

11'6

412 Municipalities. [ASSEMBLY.] Social Welfare Branch.

COUNTRY ROADS BOARD-Continued.

Municipality. Relief.

$ Metropolitan Division-

continued-Port Melbourne City .. 383 Prahran City 2,567 Preston City 11,216 Richmond City 1,928 Sandringham City 38,970 St. Kilda City 1,866 South Melbourne City 1,929 Sunshine City 7,011 Williamstown City 479

Traralgon Division-Alberton Shire 228,509 Maffra Shire 58,250 Mirboo Shire 107,429 Morwell Shire 173,457 Narracan Shire 183,635 Rosedale Shire 38,464 South Gippsland Shire 203,701 Traralgon Shire 103,954 Woorayl Shire 258,951

Warrnambool Division-Belfast Shire 30,884 Dundas Shire 39,574 Glenelg Shire 60,867 Hamilton City 45 Hampden Shire 64,574 Heytesbury Shire 95,803 Koroit Borough 1,791 Minhamite Shire 48,104 Mortlake Shire 2,293 Port Fairy Borough ., 3,562 Portland Shire 64,936 Wan non Shire 17,013 Warrnambool Shire .. 63,640

Total 10,208,058

PAYMENT OF RATES BY STATUTORY BODIES.

Percentage.

%

78·4 78·6 9·8

93·5 54'0 78·6 78·4 50·3 6·5

89·8 83·6 89·0 87~5 86·9 82·9 88·9 88·6 86·9

76'4 84·0 85·5 66·7 82·4 92·3 81·8 83·5 87·1 85·1 87·1 91·4 85·1

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local Government-

In view of the fact that the South Melbourne City Council has successfully established that the State Electricity Commission of Victoria is liable to pay rates to that council for properties owned by the Commission within the municipality, what action (if any) the Government proposes in relation to other statutory bodies liable to pay municipal rates?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The Minister for Local Government has provided the following answer:-

This will be the subject of legislation which will be submitted to Parliament in due course.

SOCIAL WELFARE BRANCH. PRESENTATION OF ANNUAL REPORT.

Mr. WILKES (N orthcote) asked the Chief Secretary-

When the annual report of the' Social Welfare Branch for the year 1967-68 will be presented to Parliament, as required by section 5 of the Social Welfare Act 1960?


The preparation of the report should be completed within a fortnight and its presentation to Parliament will depend upon how soon it is printed. Every effort is being made to present it before the end of this sessional period.

PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. DIMBOOLA MEMORIAL HIGH SCHOOL:

CONSTRUCTION WORK.

Mr. BUCKLEY (Lowan) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

Why the plans of the underground pipes and cables in the area of the proposed toilet block at the Dimboola Memorial High School are not readily available to the contractor waiting to carry out the construction work?


The Department is aware that underground storm-water drains require diversion and this work is to be carried out by the civil engineering day labour gang at the same time that the building contractor for the erection of the toilet block sets out his excavation work. There has been some delay due to the necessity to survey the site and arrange for the diversion to take place. There are no underground cables in the area.

HOUSING COMMISSION. DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME

IN GEELONG.


1. What undeveloped land in the Geelong area, where future Housing Commission development is planned, is owned by the Commission?

2. When, and in what order, such areas are to be developed?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-The answers are:-

1. The land owned by the Commission in the Geelong area and remaining undeveloped after completion of the 1968-69 programme will be:-

Corio 0-370 lots. Corio C-79 acres. (Yield 320 lots.) Thomson-28 lots. Newcombe--60 lots.

Housing [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Commission. 413

2. In accordance with arrangements made some years ago, with the Shire of Corio and the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Trust, the Commission is developing Corio D prior to the portion of Corio C north of Purnell-road. Development of Corio D; Thomson and Newcombe estates is proceeding simultaneously.

DESERTED WIVES IN GEELONG: ACCOMMODATION .•


Whether, to overcome the present trend of sending deserted Geelong wives and families to Winchelsea, it WOUld be possible to transfer to the Geelong area the Housing Commission homes at present situated at Winchelsea?


Physically, it would be possible to remove houses from Winchelsea to Geelong or to any other part of the State but this would not be an economic proposition. Neither would it be in the best interests of the town of Winchelsea.

ERECTION OF HOMES IN COUNTRY AREAS.

Mr. BROAD (Swan Hill) asked the Minister of Housing-

1. How many Housing Commission homes are at present under construction in Swan Hill, Kerang, Wycheproof, Sea Lake, Robinvale, Nyah, and Quambatook, respectively?

2. How many houses the Commission intends to erect in each centre during the present financial year, and how many applications for housing are held by the Commission for each centre?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Housing) .-The answers are of a statistical nature, and I seek leave for their incorporation in Hansard without being read.


1. Houses at present under construction:

Swan Hill-Twenty-seven (let to contract September, 1968).

Kerang-Nil. Wycheproof-Nil. Sea Lake-Nil. Robinvale-Four (let to contract Novem-

ber, 1967). Nyah-Nil. Quambatook-Nil. 2. Number of houses to be let to contract

during this financial year:

Swan Hill-Nil. Kerang-Four. Wycheproof-Nil. Sea Lake-Nil. Robinvale-Five. Nyah-Nil. Quambatook-Nil. Number of applications for housing: Swan Hill-Forty-four. Kerang-Forty-five. Wycheproof-Nil. Sea Lake-Six. Robinvale-Fourteen. Nyah West-Five. Quambatook-Nil.

GAS AND FUEL CORPORATION. MARKETING OF HEATANE GAS.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister for Fuel and Power-

Whether the division of the Gas and Fuel Corporation marketing Heatane gas will continue sales after natural gas is available to the public; if not, what is proposed for this division?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-The answer is-

The division of the Gas and Fuel Corporation marketing Heatane gas will continue sales after natural gas is available to the public.

MINES DEPARTMENT. MINERAL EXPLORATION LICENCES.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of Mines-

Whether specific conditions relating to the amount of work required and finance expended are laid down in exploration licences authorizing mineral search; if so, what are the conditions and whether these conditions are the same for each licence granted; if not, whether he will specify the particular conditions which apply to the licences listed in reply to question No. 32, asked in this House on the 24th September, 1968?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Mines). -The answer is-

Part V. of the Mines Act requires that an applicant for an exploration licence submits -amongst other things-a scheme for the exploration of the land comprised in the application.

In processing an application the proposed scheme is examined for its practicability and effectiveness, and written into exploration licences granted are specific conditions considered to be appropriate, having due

414 Education [ASSEMBLY.] Department.

regard to the particular circumstances involved and to the need to encourage mineral exploration in Victoria.

These conditions relate to money expenditure and are not the same for each licence granted. Factors which vary these conditions as between licences include:-

(a) the size of the area; (b) the nature of the exploration work; (c) the knowledge that the Department

has of the geology of the subject area and of its mineral prospectivity; and

(d) the technical and financial resources of the licensee.

Because the details of these specific conditions are confidential as between the Department and the licensee, I am not able to specify the particular conditions which apply to the licences listed in reply to question No. 32 asked in this House on the 24th September, 1968.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. SUBSIDIES FOR SCHOOLS.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked -the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. Which schools have received departmental subsidies during the past five years indicating-( a) the types of subsidies granted; and (b) the amount received by each school?

2. What types of subsidies are available to schools and on what basis subsidies are granted?

3. When applications for subsidies are required to be submitted and when such subsidies are granted?

4. Whether schools are required to have money in hand before applying for subsidies?

5. Whether a school council can decide how moneys received by way of subsidy can be spent?

6. What were the estimates for subsidies for schools over the last five years and whether the estimates would have been sufficient to cover all schools if they had all applied for the maximum subsidies?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers supplied by the Minister of Education are extremely lengthy, and I seek leave to have them incorporated in Hansard without being read.


1. The question involves the examination of thousands of applications and record cards and this could not be done in normal

business hours without serious dislocation of day to day work. The information will be made available in respect of any particular school or schools the honorable member may wish to nominate. The results of a random sample check of groups of country and metropolitan schools will also be made available if requested. Such a survey should give a good indication of the over-all position.

2. Grants and Subsidies for State Schools. Grants. Books. and Requisites Grant (Primary

Schools).

The following grant for the purchase of approved items for teachers' use is available each financial year without formal applications:-

Enrolment.

40 or less 41-100

101-150 151-200 201-250 251-300 301-350 351-400 401-450 451-500 501-550 551-600 601-650 651":"700 701-750 751 or over

Grant. $ 14 16 18 22 26 30 32

. 34 36 40 44 46 50 52 56 60

The allowance may be used for the following items only:-

(1) To purchase suitable books for the building up of a teachers' professional library in each school. As a guide to the teachers in the selection of worth-while books it is proposed to publish in the Education Gazette from time to time the titles of books regarded as suitable for a professional library.

(2) To purchase for teachers' use reference books relating to the primary school curriculum.

(3) To purchase class-room maps. Globes may now be purchased with this grant.

(4) To purchase books, pictures and records for infant teaching.

Grants for Special Schools and Services. -Annual grants for special schools are as follows:-

$ Schools for mentally handicapped

children 100 Other special schools 50 Migrant camp schools .. 40 Opportunity grades 30 Remedial training centres 30


In addition, the following special grants are now available:-

$ Institutional schools (including

schools for Aborigines) 30 Speech therapy centres-

Initial allowance for establish-ment 40

Annual grant (per therapist) .. 15

Psychology and guidance centres-Initial grant per centre

Headquarters Per centre ..

Annual grantHeadquarters Per centre ..

60 40

30 20

Library Establishment Grants.-In addition to library subsidies as specified below the following establishment grants may be made available:-

(a) $300 for each new central library room constructed under special grant.

(b) $1,000 for each of the first two years for each new secondary or technical school.

(c) $1,000 for each new primary school constructed with a central library room as standard provision.

These grants are available for the purchase of curriculum library books. New schools that qualify for these grants will not be eligible to receive also the increased subsidy for new schools.

Subsidies-General.-These subsidies are in three distinct groups: (i) specified works to buildings and grounds and supply of certain furniture; (ii) school equipment; and (iii) library books. The subsidy available for each can be used for that group only.

(a) Site Works at New Schools.Increased subsidies are available for site improvements at new schools, and schools transferred to new buildings on a new site. In any two of the first three financial years following the occupation of their new buildings on a new site the increased annual subsidies available are as follows:-

(i) Newly established secondary and technical schools may be considered for an increased subsidy for site works on a $2 for $1 basis up to a maximum of $400 over and above the normal $600 where a site works scheme exceeds $900 in anyone financial year. For example, the Department would contribute a subsidy of $1,000 toward a scheme costing $1,500, and $880 where a scheme costs $1,320.

(ii) New primary schools with an enrolment of 330 or more pupils may be considered for an increased

( iii)

subsidy on a $2 for $1 basis up to $200 over and above the normal subsidy of $600 where a site works scheme exceeds $900 in anyone financial year. For example, the Department would contribute a subsidy of $800 toward a scheme costing $1,200, and a subsidy of $680 where a scheme costs $1,020.

New primary schools with a net enrolment of 151 to 329 pupils may be considered for an increased subsidy of up to $150 over and above the normal $450 where a site works scheme exceeds $676 in anyone financial year. For example, the Department would contribute a subsidy of $600 toward a scheme costing $900 and $560 toward a scheme costing $840.

Provision is also made for larger schemes to be carried out over two financial years, and two increased subsidies may be considered in succeeding years provided that the work to be carried out in the second financial year differs in some respects from the work to be carried out in the first financial year. For example, a school could carry out the preparation of an oval in two stages either by completing two sepa~ate sections in succeeding years, or by cutting, filling and draining the whole area in one year, and grading, sowing and layipg o.n water in the second year. FenCing IS allowed as an item for art incr~ased. subsi~y only when it is erected In conjunctIon WIth tennis courts and ovals.

(b) School Centenaries.-A ~econd subsidy is available to school commIttees under the usual conditions for an approved project, preferably a building, to commemorate the centenary of a school. The school may devote the special subsidy and the usual subsidy, if it so desires, to. t~e one project, provided that the cost ratIO. IS maintained. For example, a school WIth over 330 pupils wishing to erect a library room or a canteen costing at least $1,800 as a centenary project in its centen~ry year could obtain two subsidies of $600 toward the project. Alternatively, it could devote the usual subsidy to various improvements to the school buildings or grounds and still receive a special subsidy up to $600 for a centenary nrO.iect. Schools may obtain the subsidy in the financial year that ends in the calendar year in which the centenary is to be celebrated. To ensure that centenary projects are comnleted in time and to avoid risk of refusal because of subsidy funds being fully committed, school committees should submit their applications well in advance. No financial commitment should be entered into without prior departmental approval.

(i) Buildings, Grounds, and Furniture.The subsidies available for approved items under this heading vary in accordance with


the type and size of school and are subject to a maximum contribution by the Department as shown in the scale below.

Class of School.·

High schools, technical schools, girls' secondary schools, consolidated schools, and primary schools with a net enrolment of 330 or more pupils.

Primary schools with a net enrolment between 151 and 329 pupils

Primary schools with a net enrolment of between 41 and 150 pupils

Primary schools with a net enrolment of up to 40 pupils

Basis of Subsidy.

$2 for $1

$2 for $1

$3 for $1

$4 for $1

Maximum Amount

Payable by Department in Subsidies

Each Financial

Year.t

$600

$450

$300

$150

• For the purposes of this scale of subsidies primary schools include higher elementary schools and group schools.

t Where a school is conducted on more than one site an additional $100 may be granted for expenditure on approved works to grounds.

The items for which these subsidies may be obtained are as follows:-

1. Buildings. Erection of permanent buildings (not

normally provided by the Department) for approved purposes; also ·fittings for these buildings.

First aid and rest rooms. Improvements to school buildings (for

approved purposes.) Supplementary heating units for class-rooms. (Electric heaters are not to be installed except in special circumstances.)

Evaporative air coolers and air-conditioning units. Burglar alarms. 2. Grounds.

Formation of school gardens and agricultural plots, including fences, paths, borders, retaining frames, &c., and top soil for gardens, but not including shrubs, seedlings, seeds, and fertilizers.

Internal fences and tree guards. Seats erected in school grounds for use of pupils. Swimming pools, shower rooms with hot-water service. Water service for school gardens.

An artesian bore water service subject to special conditions may be divided into three projects, namely, sinking the bore, providing storage tanks and pumping apparatus, and reticulation from storage.

Improvement of school grounds by grading, surfacing, formation of paths, paved and grassed areas, &c.

Cricket pitches, tennis courts (secondary and technical schools; primary schools with at least 35 pupils), and basket-ball courts. A second subsidy may be granted where it is necessary to spread construction of tennis courts or basket-ball courts over a period of more than one year.

Goal posts. Grass cutting equipment (other than

household mowers) for ovals and similar large areas of grass. Information as to suitable types of this equipment is available from the Department.

3. Approved Playground Equipment. Sandpits, slides (infant only), hori

zontal and vertical ladders (graded), horizontal bars (graded), gymnastic combinations (all sizes), jungle gymnasiums (small, intermediate and large) and climbing towers, scrambling nets with frames or wall attachments, climbing ropes with or without supporting frames, ladder bars, trestles, ladders, planks with attachments, taranaki frames (junior and senior), balance beam, fixed parallel bar. (See instructions Nos. 104-110 of the

Department's Regulations, General Instructions and Information 1962 for information regarding siting, types considered suitable for different age groups, installation, and safety.)

4. Furniture .. Library furniture, including shelving

or open front book cases, chairs, tables, &c.

Storage cupboards and cabinets. Linoleum (ecA" grade only) for class

rooms and corridors. Electric clocks (installed to Public

Works Department specifications, copies of which may be obtained from the Education Department).

Furniture for rest rooms (folding camp stretchers for small schools), assembly halls, and class-rooms used for visual education, &c.

Furniture and fittings over and above standard types and quantity supplied by Department. Programme units.

5. Physical Education Apparatus. Indoor gymnasium equipment, including

any combinations approved by the Education Department, as follows:-• Standard shelving units of an approved design may

be obtained from the Department upon payment of the school's share of the cost.

(i) Teachers' Colleges, Secondary and Technical Schools.

The items for which a subsidy for indoor gymnasium equipment may be obtained by teachers' colleges and secondary and technical schools, provided certain requirements are met, are shown below. The main requirements are that (a) an approved


teacher of physical education is on the staff, and (b) adequate storage space is available for the equipment.

Box horse. Spring board. Beat board. Tumbling mat. Parallel bars. Parallel bars (low). Horizontal bar. Agility mat. Roman rings (with' fittings). Balance bench. Balancing beam. Pommel horse. Swedish boom. Wall bars. Cave units. Climbing ropes, rope ladders, and nets

(indoor with fittings). Tumbling belt (with fittings). Horizontal ladder (indoor). Nets, posts and stays (indoor and out-

door) . Individual ground mats. Backboards and ring (indoor). Table-tennis table. High-jump stands and pole-vault stands

(uprights only), high-jump landing bags.

Jumping pits and run ups. Hurdles. Trampoline, trampettes. Containers for small equipment.

(ii) Primary Schools.

The items for which a subsidy may be obtained by primary schools are as follows:-

Box horse. Spring-board trampettes. Beat board. Balance bench. Ground mats, tumbling mats, individual

ground mats, agility mats. Swimming kick boards. High-jump stands. Hurdles. Jumping pits and run ups. Nets, posts and stays. Containers for small equipment.

(For small games equipment see under .. Equipment.")

(ii) Equipment. The subsidies for approved items under

this heading are available on the following basis:-

Class of School.·

High schools, technical schools, girls' secondary schools, consolidated schools, and primary schools with a net enrolment of 330 or more

Primary schools with a net enrol-

Basis of Subsidy.

$1 for $1

Maximum Equipment

Subsidy Each

Financial Year.

$100

ment of between 151 and 329 .. $1 for $1 $100

Primary schools with a net enrol-ment of between 41 and 150 .. $1 for $1 $60

Primary schools with a net enrol-ment of up to 40 $2 for $1 $50

• For the purposes of this scale of subsidies primary schools include higher elementary schools and group schools.

All new primary schools (with a net enrolment of 151 or above), secondary schools, and junior technical schools will be granted a subsidy on the $1 for $1 basis, of $200 for equipment for each of any two of the three full financial years following the opening of the school. After this period, schools concerned will revert to the normal subsidy rates.

Equipment for which subsidies may be granted is as follows:-

l. Radio: Radio sets, music appreciation units, sound systems, tape recorders and tapes. (Only specifically approved makes are subsidized.)

2. Visual Education: Strip and slide projectors, film strips, sound-on-film projectors, projection screens, television sets (approved models only) , projector stands.

3. Handwork: Woodwork tools, looms, guillotines, &c.

4. Pictures and Prints: (List to be sub-mitted for approval with application.)

5. Musical instruments.

6. Typewriters. 7. Duplicators.

8. Sewing machines.

9. Class-room Equipment: Maps and globes, blackboard rulers, compasses and squares, bead frames, vases, raingauges, barometers and thermometers, weights, scales and measures, clock (other than electric) , library cards, pencil sharpeners, aquariums, gramophone records, spelling and reading charts.


10. Infant Room: Matting and aids. 11. G~rdening: Tools (including domes

tIC type power mowers). 12. Cleaning: Floor polishers, scrubbers,

and vacuum cleaners. 13. Small Games Equipment: Bean bags,

colour bands, small rubber balls, tennis balls, small wooden bats (for bat tennis), canes, hoops, ropes (skipping and long-15 feet), wooden blocks, percussion instruments, volley balls.

14. Other equipment that may be approved by the Department from

. time to time. The following items are not subsidized:(a) Sporting equipment. (b) Items of a consumable nature (e.g.,

chalk, plasticine). (iii) Library Books.

The subsidies for approved items under this heading are available on the following basis:-

PRIMARY SCHOOLS.

Enrolment. Basis. Entitlement.

40 or less $2 for $1 $50

41-100 $1 for $1 $60

101-150 $1 for $1 $70

151-199 $1 for $1 $80

200-224 $1 for $1 $90

225 or over $1 for $1 40c per pupil

Subsidy entitlements will be based on the school enrolment shown in the February "Enrolment Return."

In the case of consolidated schools with secondary pupils, higher elementary schools, and central schools, the subsidy entitlement of each school shall be the total of the amounts payable in respect of the primary and the secondary enrolments, both calculated from the above scale.

New primary schools that do not qualify for a library establishment grant but which open with an enrolment of 150 or more will be granted a special subsidy of $200 on a $1 for $1 basis in any two of the first three years of operation.

HIGH SCHOOLS, GmLs' SECONDARY SCHOOLS AND JUNIOR TECHNICAL SCHOOLS.

In future, applications for subsidy will not be required. A flat rate subsidy of 60 cents per pupil with a minimum subsidy of $140, will be available. As soon as possible after the Budget has been brought down, a cheque will be forwarded to each school for its entitlement for that financial year.

In order to qualify their schools for subsidy in each new financial year, heads of schools will be required to submit a certification in the last' week of the expiring financial year that the amount of the grant for that year has been equally matched from local funds and that the aggregate has been spent on library books. This certificate should also indicate the enrolment figure shown in the February " Enrolment Return. "

3. No applications are required for subsidies for requisites and library books. Applications for other subsidies must be submitted after 30th of June, and subsidies are granted immediately applications are received and until funds are fully committed.

4. Yes.

5. Ways in which a school council may spend subsidy money are outlined . in the answer to question No.2.

6. Funds made available for subsidies were:-

Grounds and Buildings

- Equipment. Libraries. (excluding Special Grants).

$ $ $

1963-64 .. 166,600 180,000 300,000

1964-65 .. 150,000 177,000 360,000

1965-66 .. 156,000 182,400 300,000

1966-67 .. 156,000 182,400 300,000

1967-68 .. 156,000 299,000 300,000

Except in respect of the 1967-68 library subsidy allocation, funds available would not have been sufficient to cover all schools if they had all applied for the maximum subsidies.

BRUNSWICK EAST ELECTORATE: STUDENTS: TEMPORARY CLASS-ROOMS.

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. What number of students are at present attending each Education Department school within the electorate of Brunswick East?

2. What number of temporary class-rooms are in use at each such school?

Education Department. [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Consumers Protection Council. 419


1.

School.

3110 Merri .. 2837 Moreland 1213 Brunswick 3179 Brunswick East 2743 Brunswick South 2955 Princes Hill 1490 North Fitzroy 3146 Clifton Hill 1252 North Carlton

H.S. Moreland H.S. Princes Hill H.S. Fitzroy G.S.S. Brunswick

2.

SchOOl. Leased Premises.

3110 Merri .. 1 2837 Moreland ., .. 1213 Brunswick .. 1 3179 Brunswick

East · . 2743 Brunswick

South · . 2955 Princes Hill · . 1490 North Fitzroy 1 3146 Clifton Hill · . 1252 North Carlton .. H.S. Moreland .. H.S. Princes Hill .. H.S. Fitzroy . , · . G.S.S. Brunswick 1

Enrolment.

I Portable Class-rooms.

. , 5 2

. ,

. ,

. , 5

. , 3 2 3 2 3

448 766 938 438 590 604 872 381 786

736 881 901 371

Rooms Used at

Other Schools.

.. 1 4

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

.,

..

..

TEXT-BOOKS: OFFER BY COMMONWEALTH DEPARTMENT OF IMMIGRATION.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. On what dates the Commonwealth Department of Immigration offered to the Education Depafltment part-payment for text-books to the value of '$7,650?

2. On what date the Minister requested that Department to reconsider this offer and to supply the books without cost to the Education Department?


1. The 14th August, 1968.

2. The 9th September, 1968.

CONSUMERS PROTECTION COUNCIL.

ApPOINTMENT OF CHAIRMAN.

Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

Whether the Government intends to reappoint the chairman of the Consumers Protection Council for a further term; if so, when; if not, who the Government has in mind for appointment?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister cjf Labour and Industry).-The answer is-

The post of chairman of the Consumers Protection Council has been unoccupied since 31st August, when the original term of appointment of the chairman, Mr. D. T. Bottomley, and other members expired. The council is to be reappointed and the chairman for the next term will be MajorGeneral A. H. Hellstrom, formerly Army Controller of Design and Inspection, Department of Supply.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. GEELONG-MELBOURNE LINE: TRAVEL

BY FOOTBALL PATRONS: CONCESSION FARES: FINANCIAL RESULTS.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. Whether the Railways Commissioners consider the experiment of lowering railway fares between Geelong and Melbourne on football final days is a success, by reason of passengers attracted and the financial return?

2. On the first semi-final day in 1966, what was the fare, how many travellers used the service, and what was the gross financial return; what were the comparable figures for the first semi-final matches in 1967 and 1968, and what were the figures for the remainder of the final series this year?

3. Whether a mid-week trial of reduced fares on the Geelong-Melbourne line has ever been held; if so, when, and with what result; if not, whether an experimental trial could be organized on off-peak trains on this line, to ascertain the degree of patronage under such conditions?

420 Railway Department. [ASSEMBLY.] Pensioners.


1. Yes. 2. First semi-final:

- 1966. 1967. 1968.

Adult fare-

1st class " $2.55 $1.60 $1.60

2nd class .. $2.15 $1.30 $1.30

Tickets issued at special fares .. 404 882 1,018

Total revenue .. $805 $1,128 $1,249

Remainder of Final Series in 1968: 14th September, 1968, second semi-final

day: Adult fare-1st class $1.60; 2nd class

$1.30. Tickets issued, 425. Total revenue, '$525.

21st September, 1968, preliminary final day:

Adult fare-1st class $1.60; 2nd class $1.30.

Tickets issued, 1,614. Total revenue, $1,916.

28th September, 1968, grand final day: Adult fare-1st class $1.60; 2nd class

$1.30. Tickets issued, 789. Total revenue, $893.

3. Yes. In October, 1957, day return tickets at reduced fares were introduced from Geelong and other country stations to Melbourne on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays for a trial period. The concessions did not generate sufficient additional patronage to offset the loss of revenue on existing patronage and the trial was discontinued after twelve months. For the information of the honorable member for Geelong, I point out that the Geelong football team participated in the preliminary final on 21st September of this year.

PENSIONERS. CONCESSION FARES ON PRIVATE BUSES

IN GEELONG: SUBSIDIES.

Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North) asked the Minister of Transport-

Whether there is any possibility of private bus line concession fares for pensioners in the Geelong area being subsidized by the State?


The Government's view on the question of subsidizing private bus operators for concession travel by pensioners is that such a matter comes within the provision of social services and is therefore one for the Commonwealth Government.

MELBOURNE AND METROPOLITAN TRAMWAYS BOARD.

ESSENDON DEPOT: TRAMS HOUSED:' CLASSES IN USE.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Transport-

1. How many trams are housed at the Essendon tram depot, and what models are in use?

2. Whether there are any current plans to convert old-model trams to a weatherproof sliding door type?


1. Ninety-one trams. Class W2 Class W3 Class W5 Class SW5 Class SW6

2. No.

42 2

37 2 8

ESSENDON ROUTE: REPLACEMENT OF TRAMS BY BUSES.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Transport

Whether there are any plans for the reduction of trams and replacement by buses on the Essendon tram route?

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-The answer is, "No."

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. PRINCESS ELIZABETH KINDERGARTEN

FOR DEAF CHILDREN: BOARDERS AND DAY PUPILS.


In respect of the Princess Elizabeth Kindergarten for Deaf Children at Burwood, how many children residing in the cities of Broadmeadows, Essendon, Footscray, Keilor, Sunshine, and Williamstown and the shires of Altona, Bulla, Melton and Werribee, respectively-( a) are boarders at the school; (b) are day pupils at the school; and (c) receive visits at their home from a teacher for the deaf?

Department [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] of Agriculture. 421

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The Minister of Health has provided the following ·answer :-

The following are the numbers of children who are boarders or day pupils, respectively, at the Princess Elizabeth Kindergarten for Deaf Children, Burwood, from the areas listed:-

(a) (b)

Resident at- Boarders. Day pupils.

Broadmeadows .. · . .. ..

Essendon and Tullamarine .. 1

Footscray .. · . .. .. KeHor ,. .. . . 2

Sunshine .. .. .. 1

Williamstown .. .. I

1 .. Altona .. .. .. 1

Bulla .. · . .. .. Melton .. · . .. .,

Werribee .. · . 2 .. Total · . 3 5

--(c) No child at present receives a visit

from a teacher for the deaf from the Princess Elizabeth Kindergarten. The Education Department provides parent guidance at certain specialized units, but not at home.

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. EFFECT OF EELWORM ON CEREAL

CROPS: INVESTIGATION.

Mr. BUCKLEY (Low an) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

Whether, owing to the very serious effect eelworm has had on cereal crops in the Wimmera and the MaBee, a detailed investigation into the elimination of this menace will be conducted?

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-The Minister of Agriculture has furnished the following answer:-

Research by the Department of Agriculture on the cereal cyst nematode (eelworm) commenced in the 1930's when isolated areas of infestation were detected in the Wimmera. This research led to the

fairly general use of zinc sulphate on Wimmer a farms. Cereal varieties were tested for resistance, but no completely resistant varieties were found and it was shown that a period free from cereals was the best method of minimizing the problem on infested land.

In a rotation experiment conducted at Natimuk in the 1950's, it was demonstrated that the inclusion of barrel medic pastures in the rotation was the ideal adjustment. Barrell medic not only is resistant to nematodes but it also improves the fertility of the soil, thus leading to greatly increased wheat yields.

Aided by a run of seasons with wet winters in the early 1960's, the nematode continued to spread. Recognizing the seriousness of the problem, the Department in 1965 sought and received funds for an intensified research programme from both the Wheat Industry Research Council and the Wheat Industry Research Committee of Victoria. A research officer was appointed, together with personnel for laboratory and field work. All the necessary equipment requested has been provided.

A detailed investigation is being conducted, but it is a most complex problem. The main hope is for the development of resistant varieties of wheat, oats and barley, but this is a long-term project. Seed of resistant varieties has already been imported from overseas and is being used in a special plant breeding programme which will proceed as quickly as the Department's resources allow. The problem is complicated by the occurrence of different strains or biotypes of the nematode. A cereal variety that is resistant to one ~io.type may not be resistant to others, and It IS necessary, therefore, to study varietal resistance in relation to the biotypes that occur.

The Department of Agriculture is c~rrently conducting laboratory investigations on eelworm at the Victorian Plant Research Institute and experiments in the field at Sea Lake, Berriwillock, Walpeup and Torrita in the MaBee, and at Greenland dam and Jeparit in the Wimmera.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COM'MISSION.

WIMMERA-MALLEE SYSTEM: WATER RESTRICTIONS.

Mr. BUCKLEY (Lowan) asked the M.inister of Water Supply-

Whether there will be any easing of water restrictions in the electorate of Lowan this summer-(a) in towns supplied by the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission; and (b) for irrigation purposes?

422 State Rivers and Water [ASSEMBLY. ] Supply Commission.

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Water Supply).-Theanswer 18-

(a) There will be no general restriction applied to the towns supplied from the Wimmera-Mallee system during the ensuing summer months. However, it is possible that restrictions might be necessary in respect of a particular township should the water usage be excessive.

(b) In regard to irrigation supplies from the Wimmera-Mallee system, irrigators have been informed that the volumes currently in storage will permit supplies up to twothirds those for a normal year. The situation is under constant review and a further announcement will be made by the Commission during October in the light of ,the storage position at that time.

STORAGE CONSTRUCTION PROGRAMME: UNDERGROUND WATER RESOURCES.

Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the Minist,er .of Water Supply-

1. Whether it is the intention of the State Rivers and Water, Supply Commission to proceed with the construction of a storage reservoir on the Goulburn river at Trawool?

2. Whether the Commission has any advanced' plans for future storages to be constructed in the State; if so, what are(a) the areas; (b) the holding capacities; and (c) the estimated costs?

3. What progress has been made by the Commission with investigations into underground water resources?

4. What areas have been tested for underground water supply?

5. What were the chemical reports on water obtained as a result of these tests?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister .of Water Supply).-The answers are-

1. The State Rivers and Water Supply Commission has no plans for the construction of such a storage reservoir but the Sta,te Eleotricity Commission is giving preliminary consideration to a possible pumped storage hydro-electric scheme in this vicinity. Officers of the two Commissions are examining technical questions including water conservation aspects.

2. Under the ten-year water conservation programme the Commission has planned the second stage Buffalo high dam in the Ovens river basin. In addition storage reservoirs on the King and Mitchell rivers have been planned and are now under consideration by the Commonwealth Government for nonreimbursible grants under its national water resources development programme. Particulars of these projects are-

(a) Submerged areaBuffalo King Mitchell

9,000 acres 280 acres 480 acres

(b) Holding capacities are-Buffalo : 800,000 acre-feet King 10,000 acre-feet Mitchell 20,000 acre-feet

(c) Estimated cost-Buffalo $60,000,000 King $ 4,100,000 Mitchell $ 4,800,000

Storage projects are under construction at Lake Merrimu near Bacchus Marsh (15,000 acre-feet) and at Lake Mokoan near Benalla (300,000 acre-feet).

3. The Commission has carried out comparatively few investigations and these have been connected with projects for which it has been directly responsible. Investigations of a general nature are carried out by the Mines Department, which is staffed and equipped for this purpose.

4. As so many areas have been tested for underground water, it would not be practicable to list them all. If the honorable member would like details of investigations carried out in any particular areas by the Mines Department or the Commission, the Minister of Mines and I would be, pleased to supply the information. '

5. Many chemical reports were obtained during investigations and could be supplied in particular cases.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE. ' Sir ~RTHUR .RYLAH (Chief Sec:'

retary).~By leave, I move-That leave of absence for one month, on

account of absence abroad, be granted to Archie Lionel Tanner Esq., the honorable member for Morwell.


PUBLIC WORKS DEPARTMENT. ADMINISTRATION AND MINISTERIAL

RESPONSIBILITY.

Mr. WILKES (Northc.ote).-I wish to mDve the adjournment of the House fDr the pur-pDse of discussing a definite matter of urgent publk impor-tance, namely, "the fai,lure of the Government to ensure effident administratiDn and Ministenial supervision of the Public WDrks Department ".

Approval of the proposed discussion was indicated by the required number of members rising in their places, as specified in Standing Order No.8B.

Mr. WILKES (Nor:thcote).-This motiDn deals with the constitut1i.onal concept of Minister.ial responsdbiHty

Public Works [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department. 42j

and the failure of the Governm'ent to provide proper admin1istration of the. Public Works Department. Rarely has the public of V.ictoria wH:ness'ed a more shameful spectade than that which occurred one evening recently, when the Mlinister of Publ<ic Works appeared before a tel,eVlis:ion audience which included taxpayers of this State and stated that he was not responsible for the administ,ration of the Public Works Depart'ment .and that his respons,ibHity re,sted -in determ"ining the policy of that Department.

Mr. ROSSITER.-Did you see it? Mr. WILKES.-Yes. It is ,indisput

able that the thousands of people WflO saw the Mlilliister floundering around denying his 'responsibHity in ,front of the taxpayers of this State were ashamed, just ,as the Opposition and even the most backward m'embers of the Government wereasha'med. The M,inister floundereda,round try;ing to convince the taxpayers that he did not have, or would not accept, any responsibility for the Department which is the biggest s·pender ~n this State.

It is all very well, on the one hand, for the cavalier Premier and his Cabinet Ministers to make their annual pilgrimage to the wailing wall and complain about what they get from Canbe,rra and how badly Canberra treats them, but, on the other hand, the Mlinister of Public Works refuses to accept responsibility for the squandering of large sums by the Public Works Department. There are questions which ought to be answered. When one considers what is going on in the Public Works Department of this State, the attitude of the Prime Minister, Mr. Gorton, towards the Premier can be easily understood.

The constitutional concept of Ministerial responsibility which is basic to our system of Parliamentary democracy has been described by no less eminent an authoritv than Sir Ivor Jennings, who said that the act of every civil servant was regarded by convention as an act of

his Minister. This principle is as old and well-established as Parliament itself, yet in Victoria-I suggest that Victoria is the only State in the Commonwealth and perhaps :the only democratic community in the world where this occurs-a Minister denies that responsibility and convention. Both the Premier and the AttorneyGeneral have also denied it.

Leading articles in the daily newspapers of this State have made scathing attacks on the Government. I particularly direct the attention of the House to an editorial which appeared in the Age and to" a letter which was published in the same newspaper from a Mr. Robinson, who is an officer of the Department. He saw fit to attack the system.

Mr. G. O. REID.-That was an attack on the Public Service Board.

Mr. WILKES.-It was an attack on the system of administration in the Public Works Department; there is no doubt about that. If the Minister would like me to be more specific with regard to" what Mr. Robinson said about the Department, I should be pleased to oblige him. Mr. Robinson referred to the planning section of the Department, and I shall come to that later.

One would assume that the Minister was not aware of the poor administration and the low morale of the Public Works Department; but the Minister denied that he was unaware of the situation. If the leading article in the Age of 27th September can be relied on, the Minister said that he knew these things had bp.p.n happening in the Department. The Opposition is convinced that not only was the Minister aware of it but so also was the Government. because these are matters which have been brought to its notice over the past eight or nine years by members on this side of the House. In more recent years there have been instan~es of a scandalous waste of money by the Department and of lack of proper planning and administration.

424 Public Works [ASSEMBL Y.] Department.

The attention of the Government has been drawn to such instances, one of which was specifically men-tioned by the Premier and Treasurer in the Budget speech. I refer to his statement that a sum of $1,600,000 would be made available to the Chief Secretary's Department and that a large proportion of it would be devoted to the Arthur Rylah Fish and Wildlife Research Institute. Every member of this House knows the sorry story of tha t research centre and is aware of the fact that this money would not need to be spent if in the first place the Public Works Department had been able to supervise tenders in the -proper manner. There are many other similar instances.

In this debate, the Opposition will refer to matters of public interest and in particular to the report on the Public Works Department which was submitted to Parliament last week by the Committee of Public Accounts. That committee is to be commended on its courageous repon:. Wh1ilst it might be conceded that most of the matters referred to in the report had already been raised, they had not been ventilated to the same extent as in the report. However, the Minister of Public Works now says, in effect, "The Committee of Public Accounts has suggested that these things are happening, but they are not my responsibility. I have business consultants looking at the Department". The Committee of Public Accounts was not inhibited by the fact that business consultants were to examine the routine and administration of the Public Works Department, and I venture to say that the committee's report will make the consultants' task much easier. If in addition to the report of the Committee of Public Accounts another report is to be received from the business consultants, what action will the Government take? Even if ten reports were produced, it would not affect the morale of the Department which, according to Mr. Robinson, has never been lower. When I mentioned that earlier in my

Mr. Wilkes.

speech, the Attorney-General interjected that Mr. Robinson had said that the morale of the Public Service was low.

Mr. G. O. REID.-That was Robinson's accusation.

Mr. WILKES.-My pOint is that if action is not taken with regard to reports presented to Parliament, how can we expect the morale of the Department to be raised? To examine this matter more specifically, I direct the attention of honorable members to that part of the committee's report on page 9 under the heading, " Preparation of Plans, Specifications and Bills of Quantities". In paragraph 3.2 the committee said-

An atmosphere of indifference was noticeable to your committee in both the Administrative and Professional Divisions but particularly in the latter. In this division we consider that this attitude is caused by a lack of professional pride stemming from the burden of excessive administrative duties and the Department's practice of letting the design and planning of prestige projects to outside consultants.

According to the report, since 1961, the Department has expended $3,774,627 on outside consultants' fees. In addition, the Department has spent $484,743 in fees to consultant quantity surveyors. Despite this, the Department has not satisfied the tenderers in the building industry in this State because of its reluctance to supply a quantity survey in all cases of contracts over a certain amount.

The Committee of Public Accounts also said-

We feel that the absence of enthusiasm and the apparent low morale, coupled with an insufficient allocation of time for planning is resulting in the preparation of plans and specifications which are either incomplete, inadequate, or not in accord with current building practices. I shaH 'Cite one instance of how planning can affect -a job. ThecI.ient Department, the Educa:tion Depart-ment, decided to build a schoo'l .to a new design. designated Type 800. There is a significance ,in the use of the figure 800, but I shaH not go intoO that now. The plan was fi-rst used ,in Maryvale. After that building wa's completed, or when it was nea'ring

Public Works [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department. 425

completion, tenders were called for a similar type of school to be built at Heather Hill. The successful tenderer for this prO"j ect was handed the plan which had been prepared for the M'aryva'le sohool, whkh was supposed to be a standard plan. When the ,oontractor ,inspected the site, as he was bound by contr-act to do, he could not see it at -all because the land w-as heavily Hmbered and there was no way of observing that there was on the land a creek bed with a spring, which was flowing even in the middle of the drought. The Department did not know anything about this. A barrel drain had to be constructed to dispose of the water. Indeed, because of lack of planning and observation the sate works were 'most expensive. Furthermore, when the ,successful tenderer received the plan and endeavoured to apply it to the site he found that it -was useless because of the faU in the land -and that it was neoessary to reverse the plan. It is not very difficult to 'reve~se -a plan for a house, but it is an extremely complicated task in the case of a school costing more than $500,000. 'f'hat is what the contractor had to do in this case.

In ,the event of a plan not being suitable, why is another pl'an not prepared? This is one of the glaring instances of linefficiency refe~red to by the Committee of Public Accounts. The result is reflected in the job itself. If honorable members visit the school at Heather Hill, iin some rooms they will see glass reaching from the floor to the ceiHng and glass doors alongside two louvres. If the louvres are open the doors cannot be opened because there is not room for them to slide past the 10uVires. That i,s the type of planning fO"r which the Minister wiH not accept any responsibility. One of 'my colleagues suggests that at least the school children are entitled to move in and out of the room. In any case, I 'consider louvres to be extremely danger-ous ,in such ins.tallations. That.is not aM. Covered ways are provided f'rom one building to another. In one instance the covered way cuts across the windows

affecting the light in one room. This is an example of bad planning, for which the Minister refuses to accept any responsibility. The Committee of Public Accounts was aware of this. Despite its restricted terms of reference-restricted not by the Government but because the committee wanted to get to the heart of the problem and report its findings to Parliament-the Committee of Public Accounts submitted a very thorough report.

The committee referred to consultants' fees, a matter which is partly responsible for the low morale in the Public Works Department. Fancy private architects being brought into the Department as consultants and hav.ing the say over departmental architects! This is not done :in any other Department lin Austral:ia. Other Depa~tments take pride in the fact that outside architect,s may be consulted on the basis that the Depar.tment is the senior partner. This lis what should occur in the Public Works Depa,rtment. It is the Department's job because it is handling public moneys, and public servants have a sense of responslibility. We can expect Ministers of the Crown to deny that they have any responsibility in respect of ,adlninistration, but at least pubHc servants, particularly senior officers, realize that they a,re charged with responsibiliity. How would you feel, Mr. Speaker, lif you had -made 'a career of your profess-ion as an architect in the PubHc Works Department, and were told that a job was to be done by a consultant who would have the final say? It is of no use these officers running to the Minister or the Government; they are not interested in their problems,

I have referred -to one case 'Of bad planning, but the Com,mrittee of Public A'ocounts referred to several others, including a building at Royal Park for the Mental Health Autho'rity. The original estimated cost was $172,870, but thr-ough inefficiency and maladministration the project, which is expected to be completed this year, is now estimated to cost the taxpayers of this State $559,100. The

426 Public Works [ASSEMBLY.] Department.

cDmmittee did not have ,ti,me to make a thorough e~amination of that project, or it might have found a lot more that could be said. This is what the com·mittee Isaid-

Your Committee are of the opinion that, if the client Department had pre-planned for its requirements and the Public Works Department produced detailed working plans, the costly man-hours spent by officers of both Departments on alterations would have been reduced. Client Departments should make every effort to conform to their original requests and avoid alterations that result in delays, frustration of effort and in particular, increased costs. It is important that complete control of public expenditure is maintained at all times. The committee also said in oparag'raph 3.11 on page 13 of its report-

Evidence produced during this inquiry shows that the Public Works Department is including items in its specifications that are either impracticable or outdated.

Two examp,les were quoted, but I shall not burden :the House with them. Every honorable member who has a copy of the ·report must be disgusted. Apart from the fact that it does not trust the Department and will not tender for its jobs, the building industry must be laughing at this report.

In regard to the erection of partitions, the committee said-

In this case the Department's specifications were impracticable due to an error in design. The Department called for the erection .of partitions and specified that they be of one and seven eighths inches thickness, and of heights to sixteen feet. It was discovered that partitions of such height and thickness would have insufficient support and would be liable to collapse.

That is just one .instance 'Of poor speoifications. ~he committee also referred to bills of quantities. When the Statute Law ReV'ision Com·mlittee wa's charged by ,the then Attorney-General to examine problems !in the building industry related to f.ailures by contractors to complete jobs and to examine methods by which the Public Works Depa·rtment and private fi'rms could ·more safely 'engage in contracts whereby jobs would be completed rather than left stranded, it made recom'mendations to the Government of which the Mini'ster is aware.

Mr. Wilkes.

Certainly the committee did not recommend bonding. I believe that although bonding does increase :the cost of a job, it is one method of control. However, there are other methods.

The Statute Law Revision Committee referred specifically to bills of quantities. On page 11 of its report, the committee said-

The Committee is of opinion that bills of quantity should be issued, when applicable, to all tenderers on Government projects estimated· to cost in excess of £25,000. Nothing was done about that recommendation. The M:inister of Public Works 'must have known the value of bills of quantities presented to ·a suecessful tenderer, so that he ·would know precisely what the t·ender 'entailed and the quantities of materials to be used on the job prepared by skilled quanuity surveyors. But the Public Works Department does not do this; it has broken down. The Department has to hire a quantity surveyor from outside to provide a bill of quantities. These are some of the things which, in the brief time available, I can indicate to the House are caused by lack of administration by the responsible Minister, on his own admission.

ReferI'1ing to the building industry, the Statute Law ReV1is:ion Committee informed the Government that-

Many witnesses were convinced that Government instrumentalities automatically accepted the lowest tender. While Government witnesses denied that this was the case the committee treats this denial with reservation as there have been cases cited in evidence to the contrary. The committee cannot emphasize too strongly its belief that the automatic acceptance of the lowest tender is a dangerous practice and should be undertaken only after a detailed investigation of the past performances and the reputation of the contractor in the industry.

Beoause of the Public Works Department's practice of 'accepting the lowest tender-there are isolated instances tin which it does not-reputable contractors refus·e to tender to the Department because they do not wish to lower the-ir standa,rds of efficiency lin bui,lding eonstruction to suit this incompetent Government.


There is evidence that certain contractors are boycotting :the Department. Mr. Serpell salid so hd'mself in evidence to the Com'm1ittee of Public Accounts.

Mr. WHEELER.-How do you know what was said in eVlidence?

Mr. WILKES.-Evidently the honorable member for Essendon, who is a member orf the Committee of PubHc Accounts, has not read the fiepo'tt, or what was tendered in evidenC'e. This is an example of how the Government treats -a very :important report! On page 25 of the report, Mr. Serpell is reported to have said-

There usually is in the case of nominated sub-contracts but I must say that we have only been using the nominated sub-contracts in the more recent years, the last two years perhaps. At the present time, because of the failure of some building firms, the nominated sub-contractors have, or the contractors' association-mechanical and electrical-are now boycotting tendering in the Department; What a lovely state of affairs! The Public Work-s Department-the largest buHding construction organization lin this State-is being boycotted by reputabl'e -contractors.

I stress necess.ity .for urgent action by the Government. It is of no use appealing to the M.inister----'he has already told the taxpayers that he is not interested; he is interest'ed only in a policy. What lis the distinction between policy and admin'istration? So fa,r as Ministerial responsibility is concerned, the honorable gendeman has completely separated one aspect -from the other. On one occasion, the Minister of 'f,ransport did not accept respoOns:ibHity for his Department, and there was trouble between the Ralilway Department and building contractors. I shall make no further reference to that aspect.

The House is now considering a report of m·aladminist,ration lin the Public Works Department made by the Com·m.ittee of Publ,ic Accounts and supported by 'members of the building ,industry in Vktor.ia. If the Minister of Public Works does not take acNon toO remedy ,the defects found by the 'committee, he should

resign and allow some other M,ini'ster toO ttake over and induce the Governm'ent to straighten out the affa,ks of the Department. Apa-rt from the inqukymade by .the Comm1ittee of Public Aecounts, :and :investigatioOns by o.ther people who are now 'examining the affairs .of the Department, from time to time the OpposiNon has suggested that a Roy,al Commission should be appointed to inquire into the operations of the Department. However, the Government is not interested in Royal Commissions. I should have thought that, when millions of dollars of taxpayers' money were involved, the Government would not accept the present position but would accede to the request of the Opposition that a Royal Commission should be appointed to inquire into the Public Works Department. The Government and the Minister of Public Works will tak'e no notke of ,the report of the Com'mittee of Public AccoOunts. The honorable gentleman has salid, "We have tried to do this and do that ".

'rohe Department is having grave difficulties in obtaining the s,ervkes of professional men ; they wHI not accept appointment with the Department because of its bad name -and low moral,e. Why should a profess.ional man risk his reputation in that situation?

On the motion of Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows), Standing Order 8B. was suspended to enable the honorable ·member for Northcote to continue hi,s speech fOor fifteen m:inutes.

Mr. WILKES (Nnrthcote).-I thank the House for lits 'indulgence. The Comm,iHee of. Publk Accounts generaUy reviewed the Public Works Department, and its major recommendations a,re ,contained at page 40 nf its ,repOort. It considered that the Treasury should investigate the poss'ibHity of introduC'ing a forwardlonking prngramme that allowed a more reaHstic period for the planning and development of projects and for the allocation of wnrks expenditure over a number of years.

428 Public Works lASSEMBLY. J Department.

There 'must be co-operation between the Public Works Department and its ,client Departments. The need to obviate delays in the planning and building of schools because of bad ,admlinistraNon and poor cooperation between the olient Departments and the Public Works Department is not so obvtious in ,electorates represented by Libeval members of Parliament, but they are certainly obvious in Labor electorates. If the M,inister of EducaUion cannot cooperate 'with the Minister of Public Works, the m,atter should be ,resolved now.

The Com,mdttee of Public Accounts alsoO suggested that the Departlment must ensure that adequate cl'edcal assjostance is allocated to the Professional Div,ision so that 'senlior officers of that division have suffioient Hme to study modem buHding ,techniques. I doO not know whether adequate clerical assisltance will m·ake any difference. It alslO recom'm,ended that contra'ct conditions must be thoroughly examlined. The cont'ract document must ensure that complete adherenoe to conditioOns by both the authority and the contractor tis maintained at ,all ,Hmes. It is a f.ailing of the Public WoOrks Department that it is n'Ot prepared Ito issue a ,rise-andfall contract in other than the most exceptional circumstances. Court deoisions may ·affect wages and ·conditions of emploOyment during :the course of a contract, and, unless the cont'ractor is ,covered by ·a nse-and-fall contract, he will not tender to the Department.

In the past few weeks the PubHc Works Department has endeavoured to rectify that pos.ition. I have in my file a sample copy of one of these coOntracts, but I shall not 'weary the House by quoting that document at this stage. However, the rise-and-fall cont'faot approved by the Department will not appeal to building contra,ctors in Victoria. The methods that have proved sucoessful lin other States shoOuld be adopted in Victoria.

Mr. Wilkes.

I agree with the editorial oOf the Age newspaper of Friday, 27th September last, which stated, inter alia-

Mr. Porter suggested that the report did not criticize him because a Minister was responsible only for policy, not for administration. This is a quite fantastic distoJ"ltion of the traditional doctrine of Ministerial responsibility. If we accept Mr. Porter's definition we have anarchy, not ·democratic government. If ·a Minister of the Crown is permitted to deny 'responsibility for the administration of his Department, there is noO hope for the Depart'ment or the Government.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works).-Up to the present I have always had a high regard for the homework done by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition on any subject on whioh he speaks. Honorable members will reaHze that, over the past [oOur or five days, I have been under somewhat strenuous pressuroe.

M'r. WILKES.-It should have been over the past three or four yea,rs.

Mr. PORTER.-That is oOnly the opinion of the Deputy Leader of the OpPoslition. The situation has been distorted by a complete di'sregard for the truth. Fi~st, the Deputy Leader 'Of the OppositioOn said that everyone saw me 'On tel evis1i on. I have not yet discussed .this subject on any television statioOn.

Mr. WILKES.-Y'OU have. Mr. PORTER.-I have n'Ot appeared

on televislion to discuss this subject at aU. This ,is the kind of aspersioOn against which I ·am called upon to defend mysel;f. The state!ment of the Deputy Leader of the OppositioOn was completely and utterly untrue. I understand that s'Om'e television stations feature news programmes on which they put their oOwn interpretations.

Mr. WILKEs-Your photograph appeared on the screen; yoOu 'appeared on televislion.

Mr. POR'f.ER.-I did not. It is almoOst incredible that this ,sort of thing should happen. I was infoOrmed that the general secretary 'Of the Victodan Publ:k Serv.ice Association

Public Works [ 1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department. 429

had said .that bis association had approached 'me on numerous occasions ,in rega,rd to the Depar.tment's former practice of allowing works to go outside. The truth ,is that when at my request he was challenged the ne~t m'Orning he said that he had not seen me at all, but that in August of last year representatives of the association saw the Premier. When taxed by the officers of my Department and asked, "How can you say this?", he said, "We have made a number 'Of approaches to a lot of Mlinisters, and it goes back to M'r. Merrifield's day". It is in that kind of ,atmosphere that I am called upon to defend myself against ~nnuendo.

I have given only one press -interview 'On this 'matter, and that ,was to Mr. Ian Hamilton .of the Herald newspaper on Wednesday, 25th September. If the report of that interview :is read, it w.nl be seen that everyone is barking up the wrong tree. I have never disclaimed M,inisterial 'responsibility f.or my Depar.tment. The report published in the Herald of Thursday, 26th October of this year stated-

Mr. Porter said today he did not feel the report criticised him as Minister.

He said most of the improvements recommended by the Committee were already" in train. "

Mr. Porter said weaknesses in the Department had been well known for some years. 1ihat, of course, is true.

But he said a Minister was powerless to make appointments in a Department. The Public Service Board often overruled recommendations by department heads.

Mr. HOLDING.-You also said, " the Minisiter is in charge of poHcy, not administration" .

M'r. PORTER.-I was speaking in the context of the staff. I shall now pass from that subject and mention one or two more mistakes made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. He claimed that a Mr. Robinson, whose letter to a newspaper was published Itoday, is a member of the Department's staff. That is not so. He is not even "IMr. Robinson". He lis in fact a former architect on the staff.

Mr. WILKEs.-Have you sacked him?

Mr. PORTER.-Some years ago he had 'an argument with 'a former chief architect; he is no longer with .the Departmen t, and has not been for some years.

Mr. FLoYD.-What did they argue about?

Mr. PORTER.-I shatl inform the honorable member. The design architect who has now left believedother ·architects in the Department may hold similar views~that he knew, better than the chief ,architect. He designed for the Youth W·elfare Divlision 'Of the Chief Secretary's Department a building f.or youth training purposes. Senior officers in the Chief Secretary's Department were horrified when they s,aw the design because they considered that it looked more like a prison than ,anything else, and that was the one thing they did not want. 'f.his was the basis of this person's argument with the chief archi tect, and, in view of the fact that they could not get on, he saw fit to leave the Department.

N ow I wish to examine the facts. Every honoliable member of this House knew. when I first took over the Public Works portfolio, that I had a job on my hands. Everyone realized that the Department had deficiendes; it had been under criticism for some years.

Mr. HOLDING.---Who was your predecessor as Mlirnister of Public Works?

Mr. PORTER.---II am the Minister be-ing attacked today.

Mr. WILToN.-Are you going to " dob" him in?

Mr. PORTER.---.I am not "dobbing" anyone in; I am st,ating the facts. EveI)1rone was aware of the problems that existed when I became Minister of Public Works. There were deficiencies in the staff, and criticism's were made about bad planning and other matters mentioned in the report. All of this was known four years agO.


Mr. WILKES.-Why was something not done about it?

Mr. PORTER.-I shall come to that point, 'if I am given a chance. There were four or five reasons for this state of affairs. The first reason was the explosion of the activities that the Department was called upon to undertake. Throughout the State in the past fifteen years there has been a tremendous increase in the volume of work requiring to be carried out, and the Department was not geared to handle it. The second reason why the Department could not catch up with its work was that it has never been able to fill all of its vacancies.

Mr. HOLDING.-Why do you think that is?

Mr. PORTER.--JBecause the Public Service Board has not been able to fill the vacancies. Therefore, the Department has always been short of staff. As a result of the shortage, the staff were working under considerable pressure, with long hours of overtime, to carry out the basic Jobs.

The third reason-this has some point in relation to the criticism of staff morale-was that the Dep·artment had to let work outside because the Department itself could not handle it. All 'of these jobs were let some years ago. They were major jobs, such as the construction of the civil and criminal courts and the new State PubHc Offices. These are the jobs for which the Department is now paying consultants' fees and which give rise to the large amounts referred to by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition.

Another reason, which I discovered early in my administration, was the practice, which has been followed for at least twenty years, of other Departments completing requisitions, sending them to the Public Works Department, and claiming that the Deparotment had approved of the work, whatever it was. They then blamed the Public Works Depaf'tment because the work had not been done, regardless of whether a Treasury appropritation had been

made. This had the effect of mak·ing the staff of the Public Works Depart .. ment feel desp'Ondent, dispirited and

. ---4:0 use the word mentioned :in the rep'Ort-disinterested.

I have been a'sked, quite pl"operly, what I did about the situation. I do nDt believe anybody can take control 'Of a Depal"tment ,and within a week or a month expect to' know exactly what goes 'On in that Department, to learn its weaknesses and deficiencies, and to i'ssue directives and expect all the difficulties to be corrected. The report of the Committee of Public Accounts states-

It is unlikely that the Public Works Department systems can be changed overnight but there is little doubt that greater efficiency and staff interest will result if the changes are brought about by the application of an intelligent plan which will develop smoothly and avoid disruption or confusion in the Department.

Of course, the Department still has its basic tasks to undertake even while it is in the throes of reorganizati'On. One of the first steps I took, to ensure that the best information was available to the Departmen t when we were thinking in terms of re-organization, was ,to send some senior officers overseas so that they would have the opportunity of studying similar problems and seeing how they were met in other countries. I arranged conferences between departmental officers and the Master Builders' AssoC'iation, the Building Industry Congress, and other State and Federal Public Works Departments so that we would have available the best possible inform,ation that could be gathered. In addition, weekly or monthly conferences were called between the various branch heads and myself so that we c'Ould discuss the problems in a manner that gave us an opportunity of pin-pointing the weaknesses within the Department and trying to find solutions. As the Committee of PubHc Accounts properly states, these solutions are not easy to find ,and cannot be implemented immediately. 'f.he report has 'simply summarized the


conclusions that we came to when we made our examination of the' Department.

,Mr. WILKES.-Why did you employ oonsultants?

Mr. PORTER.-I am pleased the: honorable member asked that pertinent question. Whatever might be my views or those of the permanent head of the Department, it is in fact the Public Service Board which has to make necessary appointments and transfers; this is something over whioh I have no control and which the permanent head sometimes finds he cannot predict because the Public Service Board can .override him. Therefore, the investigation by a top firm of consultants will be of tremendous value to the Department in endeavouring to' conV1ince the BDard -and the Treasury if necessary-that changes are required.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The Minister's time will exp'ire in one minute.

On the moNon of Mr. WILKES (N orthcote), Standing Order 8B was suspended to ,allow the Moinister of Public Works to continue his speech for fifteen minutes.

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-1 thank the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and the House for their indulgence. I wish to deal at some length wi,th the recO'mmendations that have been made by the Committee of Public Accounts. I shall deal with them in the order in which they appear in the report. The first recom'mendation is directed at the Treasury, and I feel certain that the Treasury itself, if it sees fit, will answer this point, but in any case I have no doubt that the Treasury will study these recommendations with interest.

The next rec.om'mendation statesThat client Departments, embarking on

construction projects, must give more thought to their needs during the development period and should finalize all their requirements during the planning period. I dO' nDt disagree with this recommendation because I believe it is sound common sense. In an effort to

achieve this object, some years ago the Department was organized into sections so that each could deal with a specific client Department. Arr,angemen ts were made for each major client Department to appoint an officer to act as a liaison officer with the Public Works Department for the purpose of improving liaison. There has been a remarkable improvement in this direction over the past eighteen months or so.

The s'ame recommendation further states-

At a critical stage, early in the construction, the Public Works Department impose a "freeze" on alterations and variations, and thus eliminate many of the costly delays now occurring. The system applying in the Public Works Department of New South Wales, with relation to the designing of major projects, should be studied with the object of giving more responsibility and credit to professional officers of the Department.

This rec'OmmendaUon cO'ntains about three suggestions mixed up together. In regard to the suggestion that the Public 'Works Department should impose a " freeze" on alterations and variations, at what stage -is it suggested that this should be done? Should it be done at the early planning stage, before the client Department changes its mind; or half w,ay through the construction, when a new building technique may be discovered; or, as a result of an explosion in the population, when a considerable ohange is re'quired in the original planning? Should the Department complete a building which both the Dep'artmen t and the client Department realize would be unsa tisf.actory?

Paragraph (b) ()f the recommendation states-

That the Department must ensure that adequate clerical assistance is allotted to the professional division so that senior officers of that division have sufficient time to study and examine modern building techniques.

The Public Works Department cannot ensure that anyone boOdy is allotted anywhere. The Department


makes recommendations for additional staff, and then it is a m'atter for the Public Service Board.

The next recommendation deals with contract documents. The Deputy Leader 'Of the Oppositi,on was at some pains to criticize the Public Works Department in relation to contract documents. I po-int out that' the contract dO'cumen ts used by the Department were prepared by the Crown Solicitor. They have been reviewed from time to time; oontinual changes are being made. At present an over-all review of these dO'cuments is being undertaken not O'nly at State level but also between the six States and the Commonwealth. It is hoped by this means to evolve a standard cO'ntr.act document which may be used by all public ·works authorities. It would be of great benefit to' the building industry if it did not have to cope with changes in procedure and practice between the various States and the Commonwealth.

The next recO'mmendation O'f the Committee of Publ'ic AccO'unts states-

That the Department review their approach to the assessment of tenderers. A system must be selected that will give stability to projects because of the competence, experience and financial stability of the tenderer. The system now applying in New South Wales is worthy of consideration.

One of the first problems that concerned me was: How could the Department institute a system by which it could obtain tenderers whO' could be relied on and would not cause problems within the Department, and which wO'uld lead to the free and O'pen competitiO'n necessary in the interests of the public, because the Department expends public funds, and at the same time ensure that builders and contractors were capable of doing their job? Every known system of tendering was examined.

We noted with a great deal of interest the New South Wales Department's decision to' implement a system of selecting tenderers and decided that we would watch the operation of that system for a period

Mr. Porter.

of six months to see what problems arose. It was thought that if the system did not work in New South Wales, it would not work in Victoria. After the problems were thoroughly discussed with the Department in New South Wales, a decision was taken to implement selective tendering in this State.

Before such a system can be introduced, it is necessary for the audit regulations to be amended. The draftsman has almost completed the amendments, which should be available at any time. To enable a new system to be implemented it is necessary for a great deal of paper work to be done, and the necessary fO'rms and other documents which will be required in the operation of a registration system have had to be prepared. There is also the need to make one or two officers available. The forms are now in the hands of the Government Printer. The Department had decided, a considerable time ago) to take the action recommended by the Committee of Public Accounts in relation to this matter.

Next, the committee recommended that the Department should introduce intO' its procedures a system of notification Df acceptance of tenders that provide adequate and prompt information to contractors. In fact, such a list is published but the Department does not inform unsuccessful tenderers of details of quotations submitted by competitors, and I do not think it should. On occasions there have been delays in the notification of tenderers, but this is inevitable, because it is someti'mes necessary to investigate a tenderer when there is doubt about his ability to' carry out the contract or of the accuracy of his tender. Because of this the Department is forced to delay the notification which is sent to unsuccessful tenderers until investigations have been completed. Further, on occasions the contract concerned attracts a subsidy from the Commonwealth Government and the tender must be referred to Canberra for


approval before the subsidy is made available. This causes delays in the sending of notifications to tenderers.

The honorable member for Williamstown is interested to know why it is necessary to re-advertise. One reason is that frequently a batch of tenders is received and the price quoted in each of them is considerably above what the Department's engineers and architects consider to be reasonable for the project concerned. In those circumstances, the Department does not accept any of the tenders, but re-advertises.

The next recommendation of the 'c-ommittee was that, in planning for the erection of projects .for re-modelling of existing premises, the Department should ensure that the: site would be ready for the successful tenderer without undue delay. The Department always attempts to do that, but sometimes client Departments have not been able to provide a site. On many occasions, the Mental Health Authority, for example, for its own reasons, cannot make available premises to the Public Works Department. In such a Situation, the Department must work to meet the convenience of the Authority. Here again the Committee of Public Accounts has drawn attention to a matter which has already been receiving the attention of the National Public Works Council, a body which is comprised of representatives or all States.

The Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Department should ex'amine the system of critical path planning and investigate the possibility of introducing such a system into the procedures of the Department. In its general remarks on this subject, the oom·mittee went .further and stated that the Department should use a computer. A system of critical path planning is already in operation in connexion with all major projects, but the planning is done manually and not by computer.

The next recommendation contained in the committee's report deals with variations. Action along the

Session 1968.-17

lines recommended by the committee has already been taken by the Department. The eleventh recommendation refers to the payment of contractors' claims. The committee recommended that the Department should overcome the delay in the settlement of final payments brought about by excessive time taken to cost variations, and made some com'ment about the time taken in the payment of contractors' claims. Approximately three years ago the Department turned its attention to this problem, and two years ago it introduced an entirely new system for the payment of claims. In its report the committee pointed out that improvement had taken place with regard to this matter over the past eighteen months and stated that there had been no complaints from contractors. This is another case in which the Department has taken the action which the committee recommends.

The committee's last recommendation deals with the day labour force and organization, and this is a matter which is receiving particular attention from the Department's business consultants. A day labour force is necessary for urgent repairs and works in Government establishments such as mental and penal institutions, youth training farms, and so on, where it would not be reasonable to expect contractors with outside workers to carry out works.

Of the eleven recommenda tions made by the committee, ten deal with my Department, and in every case action has already been taken or is being taken in accordance with those recommendations. That is why I said in my reported remarks that this was not a criticism of my Ministry. The report only summarizes problems which were already recognized by the Department and makes recommendations which have already been implemented or are in the process of being implemented.

Mr. FENNESSY.-Are you denying the report?

434 Public Works . [ASS~MBLY.] Department.

Mr. PORTER.-I am saying that it is not a criticism of my Ministry, and I have advanced reasons for that statement.

The committee highlighted the work which had been carried out at Royal Park and mentioned that its cost had risen from an .estimated £172,000 to £478,000. I point out that the variations included the building of a new wing for the Mental Health Authority. That was done before the other work was completed, and it considerably increased costs. These increased costs were in no way due to inefficiency within the Public Works Department. I am not so foolish as to suggest that the Department has not made mistakes, is not making them, or will not make them, but my Department and I are earnestly endeavouring to avoid them. Over the last two or three days I have been very proud indeed-and also rather humble-to know that the whole staff of the Department is behind me. I believe that we have already commenced making great improvements in public works procedures in this State and that ultimately the Public Works Department will be so highly regarded by public servants that they will be proud to be appointed to it.

·Mr. PHELAN (Kara Kara).-The motion before the House relates to the failure of the Government to ensure efficient administration and Ministerial superVIsIOn of the Public Works Department. It is appropriate that the motion should relate to the responsibility of the Government. It is the Government's responsibility to appoint Ministers and to ensure that those appointed have the capacity to accept the responsibilities of their offices. There is ample evidence in the report of the Committee of Public Accounts to support a contention that the Minister of Public Works has not that capacity. I have not had time to make a detailed study of the report, but it is obvious that the shortcomings of the Public Works Department are many and varied.

Many members oh the Government side of the House have been traIned in administration, and have the capacity to administer, yet honorable members without the necessary administrative background and training are appointed to the Cabinet and placed in charge of Departments which spend millions of dollars and have tremendous responsibilities. It is difficult to criticize someone who has been shanghaid into the Cabinet or been appointed to it by a popular vote and who is thrust into a position of grave responsibility, but it must be realized that the responsibilities of a Minister of the Crown in the administration of a Government Department are tremendous and cannot be taken as lightly as many members of the Government take their responsibilities in this House.

Since I entered this House in 1964, questions of maladministration of Government Departments have been raised on a number of occasions ; in particular, these questions have concerned the inability of the Public Works Department to co-ordinate and effectively complete its own projects and those of its various client Departments. One has only to look at the new public offices near Parliament House and study the effe·ctive use that is being made of the space available within the building to realize the bungling associated with the project. On my estimations only 30 per cent. or 40 per cent. of the available space is being put to effective use. The Government spends millions of dollars in putting up what are, in effect, merely ornaments.

It is time that some reasonable thought was given to the proper planning of projects. In 1964 I directed the attention of the House to grave inefficiency in relation to the administration of Government Departments. My speech is reported in Hansard of that year at page 572. I was then criticized for daring to make such a statement, but I have heard it repeated since by many members who have produced evidence to support their statements. All that the


House has heard from the Minister of Public Works is a half-baked, not even reasonably intelligent, explanation concerning matters raised in the committee's report. All that the Minister can say is, "I can only accept what my departmental people tell me ". Therein lies the difficulty of administering the Departmentthe incapacity of the Minister.

I was somew~at disappointed to read in the Sun News-Pictorial, of Friday last, a statement by the Minister to the effect that the committee's report was not a criticism of his administration. There is no doubt that, to a degree, the Minister is responsible for policy, but policy is the responsibility of the whole Cabinet. The administrative responsibilities fior the operation of a Department are those of the Minister 'and no one else. This point has been adequately proven throughout British history in every inquiry made into concepts of responsibility. I quote from page 140 of Representative and Responsible Government by A. H. Birch-

The negative aspect of it is that civil servants are not answerable to Parliament for their actions and are protected from political controversy by the Minister. As Gladstone said, "In every free State, for every public act, some one must be responsible, and the question is; Who shall it be?" The British Constitution answers, "The Minister and the Minister exclusively". The second strand of the doctrine states that the Minister must receive the whole praise of what is well done, the whole blame of what !s ill in the work of his Department; that In consequence he must resign if serious blunders are exposed.

In the course of his reply to the charges made by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the Minister stated that he was not" bailing out" from his responsibilities. Now that he accepts full responsibility, one might hopefully say that, in the public interest, the Minister should take the obvious step. However, on past experience of the Government, that may be a little more than one could hope for. The fact that the Minister attempted to say that the whole administration of his Department was the responsibility of public servants is regrettable. This type of statement

affects the staff morale which is so vital if the improvements, which the Min'ister has suggested can result from the various steps now being taken, are to be brought about.

I was interested to hear the Minister's explanations, and particularly his suggestion that planning for the co-ordination of work is now undertaken effectively. If time permitted, I could give details of maladministration and blundering, and the lack of co-ordination between the electrical engineering, the mechanical engineering, the building, the architectural, and the supervisory sections of the Public Works Department.

I congratulate the honorable members who compiled the report of the Committee of Public Accounts on the Public Works Department. Their scope was limited but they have taken one vital sector of the functions of the Public Works Department and exposed what is wrong, in principle, with that Department. It behoves not only members of the Government but every member of this House to take cognizance of the facts described in the report, to study them, and to ensure that appropriate action is taken in the public interest.

Mr. SCANLAN .-It is obvious that you have not read the report.

Mr. PHELAN.-Of 'course I have not read the report in detail, but I have read sufficient of it to know that the factors dealt with by the committee are vital. The committee indicated the administrative divisions which exist. It could not be expected to pursue its examination to its logical conclusion-the break-up of administrative functions in the field operations of the Department. These clearly expose the incompetence and inability of the Minister to ensure that his Department works effectively.

I give the example of the current job at the Donald High School or, rather, the job that should be current. Some work has been carried out, but there have been three years of negotiations. We wish to know why the


work cannot be done. There is a clear-cut administrative division at the head office of the Department, between mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, and building. But what is found at projects? The mechanical engineering works for the Donald High School are controlled from Bendigo. The electrical works are controlled by an inspector stationed at Horsham. The civil engineering section is located at Bendigo, but it is detached from the mechanical engineering section. The building inspector is stationed at Maryborough and supervisors work in the Marbyborough division, again another division. The district architect is the Western District architect. and his local representative operates from Warracknabeal. This gives an indication of the difficulties of coordinating works that follow from the administra tive schemozzle in the Department. If these divisions are necessary, why should they not be co-ordinated within each district?

The divisions work in such an unrelated way that the man who is responsible for the work is not administratively respons'ible for the job. If the 'Min'isler is prepared to justify that as good administration or as something on which he cannot be expected to accept criticism, it is a shame that there was not a Royal Commission into the activities of his Department. I am not generally in favour of the holding of inquiries and commissions. Those administratively responsible should accept their responsibility and the public should not be saddled with the cost of inquiries. When a Minister accepts his appointment, he accepts the salary and benefits which go with it, and he must also accept full responsibility for the administrative performance of his Department.

The time is coming when Government supporters, and Cabinet members in particular, must take careful stock of their human assets and examine the capacity of Cabinet members effectively to spend

Mr. Phelan.

$600,000,000 odd of public money annually in this State. They must see that there is room for changes in Cabinet to the general advantage of the State. The Minister gave an excellent example of what one might expect from someone who does not know where responsibility lies. He said that the Department had just started to build a Mental Health Authority building when someone wanted a new wing added.

Mr. WILKEs.-He did not mention the Mont Park buildings.

Mr. PHELAN.-I am not concerned with what the Minister did not mention. What concerns me is that he did not have enough business acumen to recognize what happened as being a lack of planning and a failure by his Department to assess the needs of the client Department. It is the responsibility of the architectural branch of the Public Works Department to assess the needs to be catered for in a building before an attempt is made to design it.

If time permitted, I could enlarge on the areas of responsibility and the methods by which tenders are called and funds are allocated. Nobody knows which jobs should have first priority for pre-planning, when preliminary plans should be prepared, or when finance will be made available so that detailed working drawings can be prepared for the calling of tenders. No one can make these decisions intelligently, because there is no one at the head of the Department to make an intelligent decision on priorities for building works which must be undertaken.

The SPEAKER (the Bon. Ve,mon Christie ).-Order! The honorable member's time has expired.

Mr. PHELAN.-Until steps are taken to bring these things to a head and to arrange for some degree of planning, Victoria will be faced with the same state of affairs.

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member's time has expired.

Public Works [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) .-1 oppose the motion moved by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. It is, of course, based on the recent report of the Committee of Public Accounts. 1 shall not detail the recommendations of the committee. The 'Min'ister of Public Works has already effectively dealt with the recommendations. The whole gist of the Minister's case is that the matters upon which the committee has reported were being reported upon simultaneously within the Department, so that the Minister and his officers were already taking action to remedy the defects.

The committee mentioned several points, including the co-ordination of communications with other Departments; the question of the desirability of placing some' freeze on variations-the desirability of which the Minister has himself questioned; the preparation of revised contract documents; the introduction of new systems of tendering, including the system of selective tendering ; a more effective method of dealing with sub-contracts; a better system of notifying acceptance of tenders ; and the basis of critical planning. On all these matters, and possibly one or two I have not mentioned, the Minister has assured the House-and 1 accept his assurance-that the problems have been dealt with by him simultaneously with the committee's formulating its report.

Of its nature and according to practice, the report must be couched in somewhat general terms. In addition, according to the Standing Rules and Orders of the House, the evidence of a Committee of Public Accounts, upon which its findings are based, is never published. Therefore, it is very dangerous for us to regard the report of the committee as being as authoritative as, for example, the report of a Royal Commission where the whole of the evidence would have been heard in public and there is an opportunity to assess the findings of the Commission in the

light of the evidence presented. I do not criticize members of the Committee of Public Accounts in any way. They are bound by the rules of the House. That is not so with a Royal Commission. It is important that the distinction between those two types of inquiry should be realized. I t is easy for the press to put forward the idea that an inquiry by the Committee of Public Accounts is identical in form with an inquiry by a Royal Commission.

Essentially, the findings of the committee are generalized. The Minister of Public Works, in the brief time at his disposal, has given a detailed explanation of the methods he has instituted to deal with the problems mentioned. A great deal of comment has been made on this question of the responsibility of Ministers, and I see that the Leader of the Opposition has already started to make notes on this subject.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Surely the Attorney-General would not run away from what Gladstone said.

Mr. G. O. REID.-The thinking of the honorable member for Brunswick West and that of his colleagues has not advanced since the days of Gladstone. I am surprised that the honorable member did not quote his old favourite, Charles I, because his mind is running back to those days. I support what the Minister of Public Works has said about Ministerial responsibility. A Minister is responsible for the general administration of his i[)epar-t'ment, and I do nQit think the Minister of Public Works has run away from that idea at any time. It is important for us in these times to realize that the concept of Ministerial responsibility has changed a great deal since the time of Gladstone.

Evidence of this can be found by reference to the report of the Commonwealth and Empire Law Conference held in Sydney in 1965. One or two members of this House other than myself attended this conference, which dealt with many subjects. One

·438 P.~blic Works [ASSEMBLY. ) Department.

.which the organizers thought fit to deal with was this question of Ministerial responsibility in modern Parliamentary government. The organizers would not have listed that .subject for the conference unless they considered that there was room for differences of opinion. Papers .were presented by Professor Northey, .a professor of law from New Zealand; by a prominent member of the legal profession from India; and by Mr. Snedden, who was then Commonwealth Attorney-General and is now Minister for Immigration.

One point arising out of the discussion was that a great deal of change has taken place since the days of Gladstone and that the first factor that has brought about the change in the degree of Ministerial responsibility is that the burdens and complexities of government administration have greatly increased since those days. The honorable member for Brunswick West and I were brought up on the law of the Constitution as enunciated by that great authority, Professor A. V. Dicey, but it must be remembered that many of his views on responsible government were written in the days of the economic doctrine of laisser-faire. The position has changed vastly since those days with the result that the responsibilities of government have increased, and while a Minister must assume broad responsibility for his Department there are matters of detailed administration which are not within the province of a Minister or are not practicable for him to supervise or to have knowledge of.

The second factor that has brought about this change is the setting up within the past 50 years or so of a highly organized and sophistica ted Public Service administration, the whole essence of which has been that the Public Service should be independent of political patronage and interference by Ministers. This has caused a great change in the whole degree of responsibility of Ministers, and, I, further direct the attention of

Mr. G. O. Reid.

the House to the fact that in the Public Service Act a very positive obligation is placed on to the Public Service Board. Under section 5 of the Act the Board is given a positive list of functions, which are as follows:-

(a) to devise means for promoting efficiency in the working of Departments by-

(i) improved organization and procedure;

(ii) closer supervision; (iii) simplification of work; (iv) co-ordination of the work of the

various Departments; (v) limitation of staffs of Departments to

actual requirements; (vi) the improvement of the training of

officers; and (vii) the avoidance of unnecessary

expenditure; (b) to exercise a critical oversight over

the methods of conducting business in Departments;

(c) to supervise and improve the recruitment of the Public Service;

(d) to determine salaries and wages and terms or conditions of service or employment in the Public Service;

(e) to perform such functions in relation to the Public Service as are provided for elsewhere in this Act or prescribed in regulations made thereunder.

Mr. TURNBuLL.-Now read subsections (3) and (4).

Mr. G. O. REID.-I shall. They provide-

(3) In relation to all matters specified in paragraphs (a) and (b) of the last preceding sub-section the Board shall advise the Minister administering the Department concerned of its suggestions or proposals.

( 4) The Minister may concur in or ,adopt the suggestions or proposals but if it appears to the Minister that there are objections to such concurrence or adoption the Minister shall refer the matter to the Governor in Council who shall finally determine the matter.

The whole tenor of this Act is that the Public Service Board has a positive obligation to supervise administration throughout the Public Service. It is only when there is a reference by that Board or from a Minister and there is the possibility of a clash that it is necessary to refer the matter to the Governor in Council.

I do not know whether the Public Service Board has ever reported on the operations of the Public Works

Public Works [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] . DejJartme'nt~ 4~9

Department to any Minister, whether he has been from the Liberal Party, the Country Party or the Labor Party, but I do know that the parent Act of the Public Service Act came into being in 1946 when the Cain Labor Government was in office. That Government, of which the honorable member for Midlands was a member, took a great deal of pride in having sponsored that legislation. It introduced a new chapter into Public Service history and at the time of its introduction the then leader of the Country Party-Mr. Dunstan, as he then was-asserted that the Labor Party was stealing his original idea. So this concept of Public Service initiative and responsibility competing with Ministerial responsibility has been blessed by all parties in this House for many years. That, I think, is a vital factor to be remembered when the responsibility of an indi;vidual Minister is criticized.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-When the report of the Committee of Public Accounts was made public, the people of Victoria and members of this House could quite properly feel real concern about both the state of the administration and the policy of the Government in respect of a Department as important and as essential as the Public Works Department. If there is one thing which should give the people of Victoria more concern than the serious allegations in that report, it is the defence that has been made on behalf of the Government tonight by the Ministers who have participated in this debate. Frankly, I, as Leader of the Opposition, am getting sick and tired of having to get up in this House once a fortnight to remind Ministers of the Crown of their responsibilities and of the duties that go with their high offices. I think other honorable members are of the same view.

Basically, there are two aspects of this case. The first is comparatively simple. A Parliamentary committee, the integrity of whose members is

beyond question, has produced" are..; port following intensive investiga': tion into the activities of the Public Works Department. In this report reference is made to a lack of planning, inefficiency, waste of public moneys and low morale at all levels. In accordance with the tradition of this committee, its members phrased these allegations as appropriate understatements. The press quite properly asked the Minister of Public Works about the matter. We are not concerned whether the Minister of Public Works regards himself as a competitor of Kevin Sanders or Graham Kennedy, but on his own admission, when being interviewed by a journalist from the Herald, the Minister said that there were weaknesses in his Department. He clearly acknowledged that. He went on to say that those weaknesses had been well known for years. I do not know whether this was some sort of criticism of his predecessor, and I shall leave that to other members to answer. Then the honorable gentleman went on to make a novel assertion. First, he tried to run away from it, and then he resurrected the argument put forward by the AttorneyGeneral tonight, namely, that a Minister is in charge of policy and not of administration.

If that is so, this would be the only Government in Australia or in the Western world which would be prepared to assert such a doctrine. Is there any other Minister who is prepared to say that he is responsible for policy and not for the administration of his Department? I am greeted with silence. Of course, Ministers are not prepared to make such a statement because they know that if they were to concede or adopt such a proposition there would b~ chaos throughout this State, as was pointed out in the editorial published in the Age newspaper. Parliament was entitled to presume knowledge by the Minister in respect of the internal affairs of his Department, but that is not the issue in this case because the Minister has freely


stated to Parliament that he had knowledge and that the weaknesses were well known.

It is reasonable to ask: If the Minister knew tha t there were weaknesses in the Department and he regards himself as responsible for policy, what was his policy to remedy these weaknesses? The Department has an annual loan expenditure of approximately $40,000,000 and the multiplicity of its activities affect almost every other Department in the State. The Minister says that he is responsible for policy and he knows that there are weaknesses, but surely he should have informed this House what his policy was in respect of these weaknesses.

If it is a ridiculous concept to say that a Minister is responsible for policy and not for administration, it is even more of an affront to this Parliament for a Minister in this House to say that he has a policy about anything. That is probably the greatest insult of all.

If this incredible logic and the proposition of the Attorney-General, who is put forward as the spokesman for the Government on these matters, were applied to education, housing or transport, the Ministers would say they were responsible for whatever policy decision was involved, but it would not matter how gross was the administration. If the Minister of Transport knew that there was gross and culpable inefficiency and mismanagement in the Railway Department, he could say, "I am not responsible for that, I must consider matters of policy". On this principle, he would not care if millions of dollars of public money were wasted because it would not come within his compass. No Minister of the Crown in any other Parliament in the Western world would assert that proposition, but the Ministers of this Government are getting away with it.

The allegations made in the report are serious and cause concern. The Minister of Public Works stated that he knew all about the deficiencies

Mr. Holding.

and that the committee was only covering old arguments. If this were so, the Minister could have simply sent a competent officer or a memorandum to inform the committee of the areas of deficiency, and what was being done about them. However, the Minister has said that one cannot expect any Minister to walk into a Department and overnight tum things over.

Mr. WILKES.-His predecessor, Sir Thomas Maltby, did.

Mr. HOLDING.-That is true. The Minister has forgotten to tell this House that since 1964 he has been the Minister responsible for the operations of this Department. One could hardly suggest that any major decision of policy was being made by the Minister in a hurry. It is hardly accurate for him tO'say, " My problem is that of a boy from the bush who has suddenly found himself confronted with a lot of public servants who are doing things, for which he is not responsible." \

The committee reports that an atmosphere of indifference was noticeable in the Administrative and Professional Divisions of the Department. This is admitted. The report also says that serious inaccuracies occur in essential specifications, resulting in confusion and disputes, because of overworked and inexperienced staff. This is also admitted. Reference is alsO' made to low morale and lack of professional pride in the Department, stemming from overwork and from lack of job satisfaction. This is admitted. Another section refers to poor liaisO'n between the Public Works Department and client Departments. Tonight, the Minister blamed every other Department; therefore, poor liaison is also admitted. An over-all lack of planning in Departments for major projects is admitted. The Minister is not alone in that; lack of planning is characteristic of the whole Government.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-That is not true.


Mr. HOLDING.-The Premier is the greatest political hippy in Australia. He lives from one day to the next, waiting for Mr. Gorton to give him a political "fix" and then complains if he does not get it.

The committee also' reports that there is inadequate investigation of tenderers, which results in reputable firms refusing to tender in competition with "fly-by-night" operators. The Opposition has raised this matter in Parliament year in and' year out, and I do not intend to reiterate these allegations.

The Minister's defence was a plea for leniency. He admitted all these things and said that the Government was doing something about it, but asked the House not to be too harsh in its judgment because he was not really responsible. If the Minister is not responsible, who is?

Less than fourteen days ago, Mr. Speaker, I may have upset you when I suggested that Ministers of this Government were getting themselves into the position where they could be described as Ministers for hire. After tonight's performance, I shall rephrase it and say that the record of this Government is such that one can say that the Ministers are incompetent Ministers for hire.

Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer) .-The concluding remarks of the Leader of the Opposition had nothing to do with the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. In fact, most of his speech was devoted to an alleged statement which had very little to' do with the report.

In the few minutes remaining, I wish to deal with the first recommendation, which I believe is the operative one, by the committee. It reads-

That the Treasury investigate ,the possibility of introducing a forward look programme that allows a more realistic period for the development and planning of projects and for the allocation of works expenditure over a number of years. If that were true, it would be a very serious charge, but I point out to the

committee 'and to the 'House that obviously the committee did not thoroughly investigate this matter.

This question relates not only to' the $40,000,000 handled by the Public Works Department, but also' to another $100,000,000 State works programme plus another $110,000,000 semi-governmental works programme. All these programmes have to be co-ordinated and must have a forward look. For example, the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission has a ten-year program,me for water conservation, and the State Electricity Commission has a ten-year programme for the provision of power. For all 'major projects, the Hospital, and Charities Commission works five or six years ahead. With large projects such as the Royal Children's Hospital, the Alfred Hospital, the Mercy Hospital and others, it is imperative that there should be a forward look of five or six years, because a project cannot be started unless its completion is assured.

For many years, the Public Works Department has had a forward look of not less than three years on normal projects, although larger ones could have necessitated an eight-year forward look. For example, the new State Public Offices were envisaged eight years before tenders were let. I assure Parliament that for years now two officers of the Treasury have met with officers of the Public Works Department at least once a month to consider the current programme, and the following years' programmes.

The Committee of Public Accounts has assumed that the Treasury has altered what the committee chooses to call" the format ", which is completely wrong. Over the past several years, the Public Works Department, and it$ client Departments, submits to the Treasury a programme for the following year which is to be completed physically ·in that year. In addition, for many years" Departments' have also submitted a three-yea-r forward look programme. However. this year, for the first.time' approved .submissions have been set dowrL.on the

PtAblic. Works [ASSEMBLY.] Department.

one form. The only change is that this year there has been one form whilst in previous years there have been two forms. For some reason, the committee has said that the Treasury has changed the format, but this has not altered anything.

The average contract let by the Public Works Department allows for a construction time of eighteen months. A three-year period is necessary to cover the planning and construction periods for these works. In the field of hospitals, an eight-year period is required. The State Electricity Commission works on ten years. The Gas and Fuel Corporation plans years ahead, and so does every authority which comes under the surveillance of the Treasury. That is why it is important that the Treasury should have control not only of the $40,000,000 programme of the Public Works Department, but also of the whole $250,000,000 which is allocated for the State's works programmes in a year.

The committee has criticized the transfer of funds, and an example of a Mental Health Authority project at Bendigo is cited. This is a typical and a good example. At the beginning of the financial year, the Public Works Department requested $350,000 for this project, which the contractor said was needed for the job, and S'O this amount was allocated. The designs had been approved, the tenders let, and work commenced. In February, the contractor-neither the Public Works Department nor the Treasury can be blamed for this-was going slow and not completing the job, and it was obvious that $150,000 would not be spent. In such circumstances, what is the Government to do? Does it transfer the amount of $150,000 to more urgent work that could be completed within the financial year in question, or does it simply leave this amount unexpended? In June, three or four amounts were transferred to other projects.

Sir Henry Bolte.

At page 43 of the committee's report, there is some criticism of unpaid accounts. The only reason why certain amounts of money are transferred from works that will not require the money in the financial year is to make it possible for contractors, and through them subcontractors, to be paid during that financial year. For the life of me, I cannot accept this recommendation of the Committee of Public Accounts. I shall proceed and give a further explanation. It is necessary to consider not only the amount of $40,000,000 that is handled through the Public Works Department, but also the other $100,000,000 that is handled outside the Department. It is necessary from time to time-sometimes it is from week to week-to transfer money into the Public Works Department or out of it according to the urgency of the works in hand or having regard to the manner in which certain works are progressing. Sometimes, of course, works are proceeding ahead of time.

Mr. WILKES.-Not many of them.

Sir HENRY BOLTE. - QUite a number of works proceed ahead of time. Consequently, it is necessary at times to transfer funds from a project which does not require it to another project which is proceeding ahead of time. I assure the House--

Mr. FLoYD.-That everything is all right.

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-I assure the House that the Treasury's forward look of planning has been in operation for years.

Mr. WILKES.-If that is so, how did the Public Works Department get into its current mess?

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-I do not know to what mess the honorable member for Northcote refers. We have been through the most exciting developmental period in the history

Public Works [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Department.

of the State. Although this has imposed added pressure on all constructing authorities, every job that has been commenced has been completed.

Mr. HOLDING.-Nonsense!

Sir HENRY BOLTE.-The Leader of the Opposition has a short memory. Of course, he was not a member of Parliament in 1951, when all contracts were "scrubbed," and work finally stopped. A little later, in 1955, the Preston and Northcote Community Hospital that had been under construction for five years was not complete. It was left to my Government to complete the project, and this was done expeditiously. All these things add up to the fact that no one is perfect. The Public Works Department, the Treasury and the Committee of Public Accounts, for that matter, are not infallible. However, the Government aspires to keep improving the system and to obtain good value for the money that it spends.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie). - The Premier and Treasurer has one minute in which to round off his remarks.

Sir HENRY BOL TE.-One minute would be sufficient time to enable me to reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Kara Kara. I believe the Committee of Public Accounts should have another look at what it has suggested.

The House divided on the motion for the adjournment of the House (the Hon. Vernon Christie in the chair)-

Ayes' 27 Noes 40

Majority against the Motion. . 13

AYES.

Mr. Broad Mr. Buckley Mr. Clarey Mr. Cochrane Mr. Edmunds Mr. Evans

(Gippsland East) Mr. Fennessy Mr. Floyd Mr. Holding Sir Herbert Hyland Dr. Jenkins Mr. Lovegrove Mr. McDonald

(Rodney)

Mr. Mitchell Mr. Moss Mr. Phelan Mr. Ross-Edwards Mr. Stoneham Mr. Sutton Mr. Trewin Mr. Trezise Mr. Turnbull Mr. Whiting Mr. Wilkes Mr. Wilton.

Tellers: Mr. Ginifer Mr. Mutton.

NOES.

Mr. Balfour Mr. Birrell Sir Jolm Bloomfield Sir Henry Bolte Mr. Borthwick Mr. Darcy Mr. Dixon Mr. Doyle Mr. Dunstan Mr. Evans

(Ballaarat North) Mrs. Goble Mr. Hayes Mr. Loxton Mr. MacDonald

(Glen Iris) Sir William McDonald Mr. McKellar Mr. McLaren Mr. Manson Mr. Meagher Mr. Porter Mr. Rafferty Mr. Reese

Mr. Reid (Box Hill)

Mr. Reid (Dandenong)

Mr. Rossiter Sir Arthur Rylah Mr. Scanlan Mr. Smith

(Bellarine) Mr. Smith

(Warmambool) Mr. Stephen Mr. Stokes Mr. Suggett Mr. Taylor Mr. Trethewey Mr. Vale Mr. Wheeler Mr. Wilcox Mr. Wiltshire.

I Tellers:

Mr. Billing Mr. Templeton.

PAIRS.

Mr. Divers

Mr. Ring I Mr. Tanner .

(Morwell) . Sir Edgar Tanner

(Caulfield) .

The sitting was suspended at 6.43 p.m. until 8.14 p.m. .

STATE FORESTS LOAN APPLICATION BILL.

Mr. MEAGHER '(M,inister of Forests) .-..!Jm'Ove -

That this Bill be now read a second time.

It provides authority for the ex- . penditure of $4,000,000 of lOian m'Oneys. An a'mount of $2,900,000 has· been approved f.or expenditure on pro-:posed works for the financial year. ending June, 1969. :rhe. addition~1.: amount authorized by th~. BilJ i~ to .. provide P.arlia·mentary authority to continue works until the passing ot"

' •• , 't" ...

444 State Forests Loan [ASSEMBLY.] Application Bill.

further legislation relative to the loan programme to' be approved for the financial year 1969-70.

Clause 1 Df the Bill comprises the short title and citation. The expenditure of moneys for the purposes set out in the schedule to. the Bill is provided fDr in clause 2. Clause 3 provides that no moneys shall be expended except under this measure and has the effect of cancelling unexpended authorities rem:aining under any previous measure of a similar nature.

ITEM 1: Fire protection, $750,000-The Commission's fire-fighting facilities were placed under severe stress during last summer, when dangerous weather conditions persisted over a period of six months. Prompt detection and rapid mobilization of firefighting crews resulted in the area of forest burn being kept to a relatively low level. In line with its past policy the Commission, whilst improving its existing fa'cilities, is adopting new techniques which ,can be applied effectively in this State. In this latter regard, the Com'mission is in the ~orefront of Austr'alian forest servl'ces. PrDvisiDn is m'ade fDr five lookout towers, 368 miles Df jeep tracks, and f10urteen helicopter landing p'ads, for construction work in the fields of detection and ,access. Fifteen dams will be constructed in areas where water supplies are not available in summer.

Following aerial bombing of three fires in ,inaccessible mountainous areas last summer, resulting in rate of spread being successfully slowed pending a'rrival of ground crews, ,three further fire-re,vardant installations will be brought intO' operation. T-hese will signifi'cantly increase the area in which the technique, using crop dusting aircraf.t, 'oan be e,mplDyed. A hel:icopter 'will again be held Dn immediate call at the height of summer for use in ,fire fighting. The ohartered machine proved invaluable in ,ferrying fire crews to' re'mote fore'st areas last summer -and in plotting the prO'gress of maj'Dr fires.

Mr. Meagher.

Funds are provided for empl'oyment of three mobile, self-contained crews of university students, during January and February, to augment the CommissiDn's basic for'ce of trained firefighters. Similar crews, trained and led by experienced men, proved their worth in ea'ch of the two previous fire seasons.

Fire-fighting Equipment: Funds are provided f'Or the repla:cement of twO' 4 x 4 tankers, fitting of three additional 4 x 4 units and for the purchase of 70 pumps 'Of ¥arying capacity to repl,ace equipment nearing the end O'f its service life. Two. mobile kitchens, six mobile ablution blocks and one mobile fire--control centre will be purchased to ensure that fire crews wO'rking in remote fDrest areas have reasonable facilities a¥ailable to. them. TO' improve flexiibility in supply'ing water for firefighting, five additional light trailer tanks which can be tJowed by a car 'Or utility will be supplied to' specific forest districts. Ten thermohygrographs which Ic'Ontinuously record temperature and humidity will be added to the C'Omlmiission's network of fire weather stations to' improve on-the-spot assessment of fire danger in forest areas.

RadiO' : A further 200 high performance port'able radios will be placed in service. These units will permit of much greater flexibility in the radiO' network than has been possible previously. 'f,he benefits will be felt in 'all aspects of field operaHons but particularly in directiDn and control of fire-fighting operations. ReIInlote receivers are to' be installed in ten forest distdcts where severe interference with radio traffic has been encountered.

ITEM 2: ,Indigenous State forests, $350,000 - Silvicultural treatment will be given to' merchantable forests to. improve the groiWing sto.ck and S'O increase the timber production potential. Tre'atments will mainly be regeneration Df cut-over areas, the thinning Df overstocked stands and the repl'anting of blank are'as. Major

State Forests Loan [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Application Bill. 445

expenditure by divis'ions will benorthern, $66,000; eastern, $37,000; and western, $28,000. The total planned expenditure 'is '$259,000.

Aerial sow·ing is of prime importance for the regeneration of cut-over areas. About 4,700 acres will ibe scheduled for this treatment during the autumn. The Co'mmlission's officers arrange Ithe preparation of the seed bed on cut-over areas by burning. The aerial seeding, carried 'Out iby contractors, is strictly supervised by forest staff. Wherever practicable, integrated operations by licensees are encouraged to accomplish complete utilization of the area in Dne operatiDn, resulting in greater sihliicultural benefit to the remaining growing stock without specific departmental expenditure.

ITEM 3: Extraction roads, $300,000 - Expenditure on extraction roads is planned at $225,000, the principal expenditure proposed being, by divisions-eastern, $98,000; southwestern, $23,000; central, 1$26,000; and western, 1$20,000. In addition to new construction, provision is made for improvement of existing roads and bridges, required to facilitate the extraction of forest produce. This work will include some realignment and surfacing. The proposed expenditure wHI include any roads necessary for procurement :of pulpwood iby A.iP .M. Forests Pty. Ltd. and by Hardwoods of Australia Limlrted in accordance wi th the terms .of their respective agreements. Construction of minor roads and jeep tracks will be continued to' provide general access.

ITEM 4: PI'antations establishment --- softwoods and hardwoods ---- including those to' be established under Commonwealth Softwood Forestry Agreements Act 1967, $2,200,000-'f,he Com'm'Onwealth-IState Soiftwood FDrestry Agree'ment requires that Victoria ,shall pliant 10,000 acres of sDftwoods during this financial year. The sum of $1,400,000 has been allocated to this item, which involves land clearing for the current year and forward clearing to' cover the expanding

programme against unforeseen difficulties in future years, the expansion of the nursery programme, procurement of seed, destruction of vermin and other associated m,atters. About 2,700 lb. of seed, which can be expected to yield between 7,000 and 8,000 plants per P'Ound, will be sown.

Major individual ,cost estimate,s are: Clearing $410,000, roading $154,000, nurseries $96,000, planting - including renewals - $161,000, land purchase f'Or consolidation of areas, $100,000, and nursery and camp development, $60,000. Major plantings are proposed at Tallangatta, 1,500 acres; Marysville, 1,000 a'cres; Rennick, 1,500 acres; Benalla, 1,000 acres; Mansfield, 600 acres; Myrtleford, 700 acres and South Gippsland, 1,250 acres. Establishment of 'a third seed orchard has commenced at Trentham. On rts completion, the total area .of the three seed O'rchards will be 275 acres. It is expected that these orchards ,will be making a major contriibution of genetically superior seed by 1971 and supplying our /full requirements by 1978.

First pruning of strategically located blocks will give the two-fold benefit of improved timber values and fire protection. A sum of $40,000 has been allotted to this work. The reforestation of abandoned farm land which has reverted to scrub in the South Gippsland hills will be continued. The main species planted is mountain ash-Eucalptus regnans. Seedlings are propagated and tubed at a nursery at Olsens Bridge south of Boolarra. Prison labour is used in the nursery and at all stages of planting, which should attain 700 acres this year. Other hardwood plantings will be made in conjunction with gravel pit reclamation and, where necessary, in blank areas in various districts.

ITEM 5: Forest officers' quarters, workshops and other buildings, $160,000 - SuitaJble accommodation for permanent officers is unavailable in some country locations and the Commission has to' provide homes for its staff. New residences are proposed at Erica, two; Benalla, one;

446 State Forests Loan [ASSEMBLY.] Application Bill.

Mansfield, one; and Neerim, one. Provision of bunk-house type accommodation for employees at Cann River and Ben doc will cost $17,000. Garages, workshops and various other buildings, including accommodation for observers at fire towers, are planned.

ITEM 6: Purchase of land, $150,000 -To consolidate areas already purchased, further acquisition of freehold land in the Dandenong Ranges is necessary to give effect to the Town and Country Planning Board's zoning plan for the preservation of the natural beauty of the ·area. It is proposed also to proceed with the purchase of further land on the western slopes to provide a consolidated fire protection belt.

Some funds will be required for the purchase of alienated land, which is either carrying ·marketable native hardwoods or has a high potential for the production of same. Land of this nature is offered to the Commission from time to time. Further land purchases are necessary for the provision of access to forest areas for Umber extraction and ·fire protection.

ITEM 7: Purchase of plant (other than under items 1-5 inclusive) , $40,000-Finance for the purchase of heavy equipment such as tractors, graders and 'compressors is provided by the Forests Plant and Machinery Fund, but the fund does not provide for the purchase 'Of smaller items of equipment. Accordingly, provision is made under this item for machine and hand tools, plus test and workshop equipment to the value of $12,000 at the Newport central workshop and at seven field repair centres. In addition, funds are provided for the purchase of other items of necessary miscellaneous equipment.

ITEM 8: Farm forestry, $50,000-Interest in the farm forestry loan scheme introduced in 1965 has been sustained and 34 agreements have been authorized. The total amount of advance's' involved is $90,145. Payments made to '-30th June, 1968, total $43,822 .. 'Honorable members

Mr. Meagher.

will appreciate that, generally, reimbursements required in any particular agreement will extend over several years as the work is carried out. An amount of $30,000 has been provided to cover advances which, it is expected, will be sought under existing agreements this financial year. 1 com·mend the Bill to the House.

On the motion of Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Tuesday, October 15.

STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION BILL.

Mr. BALFOUR (Ministe'r for Fuel and Power) .-1 move-

That this Bill be now read a second time. The principal purpose of this Bill is to clarify the position as regards the payment of rates by the State Electricity Commission. Opportunity is being taken to make two more minor amendments to the State Electricity Commission Act, and I shall refer to these later.

As honorable members will be aware, the State Electricity Commission has always considered that Parliament at the outset intended that property of the Commission should not be subject to rating, and indeed this position has not been seriously challenged within Parliament nor had it been by the councils themselves until about three years ago when the City of South Melbourne took legal action to test the position. The Supreme Court upheld the action of the council in respect of those lands held in fee simple in the name of the Commission, stating that in its opinion these were not lands of the Crown. The contrary view previously taken by the Commission was based mainly on section 21 of its Act which authorizes it to conduct its prinCipal undertakings on behalf of Her Majesty. Legal argument in .. this matter is quite complicated arid. I do not think that any purpose woulp be served by going into 'this in detaiL.' -

State. Electricity [~. OCTOBER, 1968.] Commission Bill. 441

It should be noted, however, that the Supreme Court judgment would result in some lands occupied by the Commission still being exempt from rating. These are-

Lands held in the name of the Crown ;.

lands vested in the Victorian Railways Commissioners and leased to the Commission; and .

land, the property of a municipality, and leased to the Commission.

The Commission appealed against the decision, but the opinion of the Supreme Court was upheld by the High Court. The Commission decided to appeal to the Privy Council, but it recommended to the Government that the position should be clarified by legislation. These legal processes are, of course, quite costly to all parties. Because of this it is better for Parliament to state its intentions quite clearly than for the Commission to seek further legal review.

The Commission recommended to the Government that the exemption from rating which previously applied in practice should be confirmed by legislation. The Government has given very careful consideration to this recommendation in the light of the report by the Statute Law Revision Committee upon property exempted from municipal rating which was presented to Parliament on 28th November, 1967. The committee reviewed the whole range of exemption from rates and in its report commented on the quite substantial financial losses to councils. It made no specific recommendations but stated in relation to exemptions for Government properties-

. . . . . the general policy underlying .these exemptions was that lands which are used in the service of the public or in promoting the welfare of the people are free from this paNicular form of ·taxation. Although this argument may be valid in

relation to certain heads of exemption the Committee considers that it loses its potency in relation to public authorities of a commercial nature for instanc~. .

However, the committee went on to say-

The committee has formed a firm conclusion that decisions as to whether .there should be properties exempt from rating in full or in part or what classes of property should be favoured in this way are ones which should properly be made by a Government as a matter .of policy.

Despite the committee's comments on trading organizations, there are quite a number of special facets which need to be considered 'So far as the State Electricity Commission is concerned.

The Commission has developed over the 50 years of its existence a special financial relationship with municipal councils which has been of very considerable benefit to most municipalities. Very favourable public lighting tariffs have been developed, and the Commission has given further special assistance in the formulation and introduction of improved street lighting. Over and above this it has made payments to councils in lieu of rates to cover the cost of services provided to the Commission. Also it makes ex gratia payments in lieu of rates in respect of its showrooms and ensures that all tenants of State Electricity Commission properties pay rates.

The Statute Law Revision Committee in its report suggested that rather than concessions being given to municipalities, prima facie a municipal council has a right to expect that all land or at least all occupied land is capable of producing revenue by -the levying of rates. The corollary of this of course is that all charges to councils should be on a normal commercial basis. But if this were ever done as between the Commission and the councils, public lighting charges would have to be increased very steeply with consequential discouragement to councils to improve public lighting. It is not difficult to imagine that in these circumstances some

448 . State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

councils would even abandon special street lighting projects they have already adopted.

If the present rating provisions of the Local Government Act were applied to properties in the name of the Commission some quite serious anomalies would arise. As already mentioned, some land of the Commission would be rateable and some would not. There would be no real logic in this division. Commission works comprise works of high capital value compared with the area of the site and where the net annual value system applies the result could be quite unrealistic. Also, there would be very considerable doubt as to what assets formed a permanent part of the properties and there could be considerable argument and even litigation on this point alone.

The main Commission works could be. subject to very heavy rating and thIS would result in two municipalities in particular receiving a benefit of enormous proportions when compared to their present rate revenues, merely by fortuitous circumstances. Morwell Shire Council already has issued a rate notice for $350,666.65 in respect of the current rate year. Incidentally, it has not substantiated this figure in any way. The services the council renders to the Commission cost only a very small proportion of this amount. The present system of concessional public lighting tariffs provides a much more equitable spread of benefits as between municipalities.

I feel that it is important that I should provide for the benefit of honorable members some detailed information about the concessional nature of the public lighting tariffs and also concerning the contributions which the Commission already is makipg to councils for services they provIde. These low public lighting tariffs have provided a strong encouragement to municipalities to improve street and highway lighting during the period when this problem has required and still requires urgent attention.

Mr. Balfour.

Very favourable costing methods are used in assessing public lighting tariffs. Public lighting consumers are nOit called upon to bear any share of the capital, operation and maintenance costs of the poles, conductors, transformers and like assets composing the general low voltage reticulation system. The whole of these costs are borne by industrial, commercial and domestic consumers. The only costs included in assessing public lighting tariffs comprise the cost of electricity, capital and maintenance expenditure associated with public lighting lanterns, brackets, special standards, switching equipment and the like, lamp replacements and patrolling. As public lighting tariffs have received favourable treatment in more recent tariff reviews, even these incremental costs are no longer being fully recouped.

When tariffs have been reviewed the Commission has always given the public lighting class the most favourable treatment possible in the circumstances. It is significant that in the period of rising costs since 1948 there have been ten general tariff reviews and on four occasions public lighting tariffs were not increased. On another occasion they were reduced by 10 per cent. The cumulative increase in the metropolitan public lighting tariff since 1948 has been 72 per cent. whereas the average increase for all retail classes in the same period has been 169 per cent. The tariff adjustment on 1st January, 1965, when the metropolitan public lighting rates were made standard throughout the State, involved a direct benefit of $62,000 to extra-metropolitan municipal councils based on lamps in service in the year 1965-66.

Metropolitan public lighting tariffs today are much the same as they were in 1954, and outside the metropolitan area the rates are substantially lower; over the same period the general level of tariffs has increased by just on 47 per cent. The Commission's approach to the public

State Electricity [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Commission Bill. 449

ligh ting service has encouraged councils to improve public lighting. The Commission has further assisted by developing very greatly improved public lighting schemes without additional cost to the councils. The reduction in tariffs in 1954 was made in the expectation that councils would improve public l1ghting standards. A five-year programme for replacing 100-watt incandescent lamps, which was the standard lighting unit in residential areas, to new units equipped with two 20-watt fluorescent tubes and giving 60 per cent. more light output was completed in 1966. A similar programme was then begun to replace 200-watt incandescent lamps with three 20-watt fluorescent lighting, and this task too is complete. The cost of these works exceeds $1,000,000 and has been borne by the Commission without charge to municipalities.

The Commission has accepted the position that it should make reasonable payments to municipalities for the services they render. As part of its tenancy conditions the Commission insists on employees occupying its houses paying municipal, water and sewerage rates. Where other Commission property is leased the terms of the lease provide that the lessee shall pay rates assessed on the property during the currency of the lease. Following representations by the Municipal Association of Victoria in 1956, the Commission agreed to make ex gratia payments equivalent to municipal rates on the portion of its offices used for showroom purposes and the sale of appliances. It seems to be only reasonable that this should become a statutory obligation on the Commission and this Bill provides for this to be done. Also, the Commission makes payments in respect of services rendered to its operational establishments. Payments in these categories total nearly $425,000.

The Commission also pays its 'share of the cost of road construction schemes. In special locations where there is a heavy concentration of road usage by Commission vehicles, a contribution is made to the council concerned for the maintenance of roads in the area. Payments made under this category comprise:-The Shire of Morwell, $17,500 per annum; the Shire of Bright, in respect of the township of Mt. Beauty, $4,000 per annum; the City of Richmond, $3,000 per annum; and the Shire of Alexandra, two-thirds of the cost of maintenance of the road to Rubicon, up to a maximum of $600 per annum.

Payments are made in respect of the provincial tramway undertakings and, in addition, the Commission has made very substantial payments for the construction of roads servicing its undertakings and works from which the public and, indirectly, municipal councils have benefited.

The Commission is always prepared to discuss with individual councils any particular problem relating to their municipalities, a recent case being that of the Shire of Morwell. As a result of these discussions the annual contribution to the shire was increased by $2,500 to $17,500 a year. The Commission has undertaken to maintain the present pattern of these payments to municipalities and other rating authorities for the services they provide.

Unless it is exempted from rates, the Commission could face a bill of about $3,500,000 a year. As mentioned, the Morwell Shire Council already has submitted an account for $350,666.65 in respect of the 1967-68 rate year. The Commission could not meet such a bill from its present income and inevitably would have to seek additional revenues from its consumers to compensate. Competition in a number of important fields restricts considerably the extent to' which the Commission can further increase its domestic" commercial and industrial tariffs to augment its revenues.

450 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

Electricity supply authorities in all other States, except Queensland, are exempt from municipal rates. These States are in direct competition with Victoria for major industrial loading, and any additional costs through municipal rates which might cause an increase in Victorian tariffs inevitably would affect Victoria's competitive position adversely. The only option remaining to the Commission would be to increase public lighting tariffs to a level which would largely offset the additional outlay on municipal rates, and this would reverse the encouragement which has applied for so many years to the improvement of street lighting. If public lighting were charged on a normal commercial basis, present rates would have to rise very steeply and this, no doubt, would be greatly resented by municipalities particularly those which would gain little or even nothing by rating the Commission.

It will be obvious that if the Commission were to be liable for rates a relatively few municipalities in which major installations are located would stand to receive substantial increases in revenue, but the large majority of municipalities would have to contribute to these increases through public lighting charges. It should be remembered that the Commission does not own land in a large number of municipalities in Victoria and hence would pay no rates in these municipalities in any case. However, very nearly all of these municipalities have public lighting installations supplied by the Commission.

As already mentioned, many anomalies would arise. In the terms of the court judgment the Commission is liable to pay rates only on those lands which it holds in its own name, and accordingly any land occupied by the Commission, whether as a lessee or licensee, which is land vested in the Crown, the Victorian Railways Commissioners or a municipal council is not liable to municipal rating. Quite a number of Commission installations are built either on Crown or railway land and many of these are

Mr. Balfour.

large. Newport power station is built on land occupied under a 999-year lease from the Victorian Railways. The Rubicon hydro-electric power stations are on Crown land and Eildon power station is on Crown land vested in the State Rivers and Water Supply Commission. A major part of the Morwell-Hazelwood undertaking is on land acquired by the Commission in the name of the Crown which could, and normally would, be later granted to the Commission.

I have already mentioned the account from the Morwell Shire Council. In the Kiewa area the Commission has some $68,000,000 worth of fixed assets, mainly in the Shire of Bright. The shire, with a population of 4,500, would virtually be able to finance the whole of its works programme from rates to be received from the Commission alone and for which it would be required to provide very little by way of services in return. If the shire retained its present rate of 14 cents in the $1, its revenue would be increased by about $475,000, an extra $105 for every man, woman and child in the shire. A similar position would arise in the case of highcost assets such as terminal and main sub-stations located throughout the State, a number of which are located in predominantly rural areas; for instance, the Dederang terminal station, which receives Snowy power into the State system, has assets valued at $4,250,000.

To place the State Electricity Commission in the position which it has been accepted as holding for the past 50 years, clause 3 of the Bill provides for a new section 105A to be inserted in the State Electricity Commission Act 1958, providing that the land of the Commission shall not be and be deemed never to have been rateable property within the meaning of the Local Government Act 1958. The effect of this clause is that the Commission will not in future be liable for rates and will not be liable for any rate notices which it has already received from municipal councils. It also has the effect of nullifying the


judgment given against the Commission by the Supreme Court and the High Court, athough of course the Commission will still be liable for the South Melbourne City Council's legal costs.

Sub-section (2) of the new section 105A will require the Commission to pay rates on any land which might be used by the Commission to carry on the business of trading in electrical apparatus. As honorable members are aware, the Commission usually carries on its showroom operations in a building which is also used for operational purposes. The Bill provides for the payment of rates on that part of the land which might be devoted to trading, and the amount of rate will be such amount as might be agreed upon between the Commission and municipal councils concerned. Subsection (3) of the new section 105A provides for such agreement or, if the Commission and the council cannot agree, that the amount of rate to be paid shall be determined by the Valuer-General.

, Clause 2 is a simple amendment of sub-section (5) of section 50 of the Act and provides for the deletion of the words "of different classes" where they appear in two places. This is the section of the Act which authorizes the making of regulations for the registration of electrical contractors. When this provision was first enacted in 1934 by Act No. 4220, there were some local electricity supply undertakings in country centres operating 200 or 230 volt direct current systems, and in those centres there were some electrical contractors whose qualific'ations and experience were suited only to the very limited type of installation work in those areas.

To allow such contractors to continue to provide a service in the areas concerned, since there was not sufficient demand to encourage other contractors to go to such areas, provision was made in the regulations' for a separate class of electrical contractor, designated class "P ", who was permitted'to work only in areas

where the system of supply did not exceed a pressure of 250 volts. There have not been any class "P" contractors registered for a number of years and, in view of the extension of transmitted supply throughout the State and the elimination of all direct current undertakings, there is not likely to be any further need for contractors with such limited scope.

The Electrical Contractors' Registration Regulations are being revised, and it is proposed that the new regulations shall provide for only one class of contractor. From the wording of the Act it could be implied that there has to be more than one class of contractor. To avoid the possibility of legal challenge to the validity of the regulations on a technicality, it is considered advisable to delete the reference to contractors of different classes in this section of the Act.

Clause 4 makes additions to section 110 of the Act and empowers the Governor in Council on the recommenda tion of the Commission to make regulations providing for the registration and control of cathodic systems for the protection of metallic structures. Considerable damage 'can be caused to underground metaUic structures by what lis known as stray current electrolysis. In particular, water and gas mains, oil pipelines and electflioity and telephone c.ables 'can suffer damage c.ausing .interruptions to the services.

The currents which cause thiis electrolysis can emanate from any locaHon 'where direct current electricity passes through the soH. Alternating current as used 'in public elect'ric'ity supply does not present the same pl'iohlem. In the past, the most 'common sources of these st~ay currents in the metropolitan area have been the electrified traction systems which use the track ra-Us as the return dro~it to the sub-stations. Electrirc.ity WIll take the path .of least resistance bet'ween tw.o points :and where soH conditions' are ,suitable ' the current wiH pass from one oo~ductor such as 'a traction rail, through the~oil to

452 State Electricity [ASSEMBLY.] Commission Bill.

another conductor, such as a water ma-in, which off-ers less 'resistance. The current wiU Ileave the water main or .other -metallic underground pipe at another point and pass through the soli! to return to the sub-station.

At each point 'where current leaves a conductor, electr.olytic corrosion takers place and, depending on the amount of current flowing, considerable dam·age 'can, at Urnes, bec:aused. Because 'Of the vast network .of p.ipes, cables and other underground metallic structures in the Imet~opoHtan area, these stray currents 'may 'Pass frO'm one to other of a series .of ,conductive paths before returning to the point of odgin of the circuit.

The problem of electrolys1is has been recognized for many years, and in 1927 an electrolysis com'm1ittee was set up in V'ictor.ia to investigate 'reports of electrolytic 'corrosion and endeavour to' eliminate ·the causes. The com'mittee originally compr-ised representatives of the State Electricity Commission, Victorian RaHway.s, the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tra'mways Board, the PostmasterGeneral's Depa'rtment, the :Melbourne and Met'ropolitan Board of Work,s, and the Met'ropolitan Gas Company. Subsequently, the ,Melbourne City Coundl, the Victorian PipeJ.ines Commission, and Colonial Gas Holdings have joined the 'com'mittee ·and the Gas and Fuel Corporation has replaced the MetropoJii.tan Gas Company. The chairman of the State Electl'1icity Com'm,ission, Dr. W. H. Connolly, 'is 'chair'man of the Electrolysis Committee. The oom'mittee is an excellent example of a group of authorities endeavouring, by 'cooperative effort, to find the best means of solving a common problem rather than attempting to enforce statutory rights by legal actions.

As an iHustration of the 'magnitude of the problem, I would ment!ion that in 1961 the ·authorities represented on the committee adopted a recommendation by the 'committee ·that the scheme of electrolysis pl'1otection in the metropolitan area should be converted to a system of relay controlled

Mr. Balfour.

straight drainage. This work will cost well over $l,OOO~OOO, and the expenditure is being shared in agreed proportions by the authorities concerned.

Another source of stray currents whkh ,can corrode underground metaUic structures arises from cathodic protection systems. The primary purpose of these systems ,is to pvotect metal against 'corrosion but, if care is not taken in their design, current emanating from these systems ·can oorr-ode other ·metaUk structures nearby. In these systems, direct current electrioity ,is supplied to a spedal anode or series of anodes in the soH at a suitable distanoe from ·the structure to be protected. The anodes are corroded, or eaten ,away, by electrolysis but can be read-By replaced whi:le the main structure is protected.

Because 'Of the somewhat unpredictable behaviour of strayelect'ricalcurrents lin the soil, if tihere ar'e other metallic structures ,in the Vlicinity, such 'aJS pipes or 'cables, ,some of the current 'may pas's to these structures which then become anodes and are subject to corrosion at the PO'ints where the current passes from them to' 'return to the point of origin.

An increasing number of these cathodic protection sytstems -is oeing instaHed, ranging from ·those protecting large natural gas and olil pipelines 'many miles :in length to single instaHaHons ptotecting items such as the under-ground storage tanks at a servke station. It is now possible to buy cathodk protection units for ~nstallation on a " do it yourself" basis.

The Electrolysi's Com·m:ittee is ooncerned that the instaHation of numbers of these systems, without rega'rd to the possible effect on the assets of other bodies,could cause ,considerable damage to underground mains and services. There already have been case's of ·cathodic protection installations ·causing damage to other underground structures 'and acNon had to be taken to' reduce the currents linvolved 1n order to' provide a system satisfactory to all parties.


The committee has recom'mended that action be taken, first, to register all cathodic protection ,instaillations so that other authorities with underground 'mains and services in the v.ioinity wHI be aware of the installations and can check the effect 0'n their assets. Secondly, based on experience derived from such instaHations, standards would be drawn up f.or cathodic protecHon systems ,and regulatlions would prDvide for the application of these standards to protect, as far 'as practiocable, other metaUic structures against damage by the cathodic protection linstalled. The committee has agreed that the State Electdcity Com'mission ShDUld be the authority to' administer these regulat~ons. ,Icom'mend the BiU to' the House.

Mr. LOVEGROVE {Sunshine).-I mDve-

That the debate be now adjourned. I suggest an adjournment Df the debate for three weeks.

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister .fDr Fuel and Power) .-1 consider that an adjDurnment Df the debate fDr twO' weeks wDuld be suitable.

Mr. LOVEGROVE (Sunshine) (By leave) .-This Bill CDncerns a large number orf municipal authoI'1ities lin Vktoria. OpP0'sitiDn 'members want time to' consult the councHs on the matter, as ,well as t0' rfo~mulate our own policy. We want to obtain certain infOormation and we ,cannot get it in less than three weeks. We have asked certain questions but we will n'Ot receive the ans,wers until next week. We need that information befOore we gO' ahead. It is in rfue :interests of the municipal counoUs which have 'made representat'ions to the Statute Law Revision Com'mittee on this ,matter that Oppositi0'n members should have adequate time lin which to c0'nduct their inquides.

Mr. BALFOUR (Mlinister for Fuel and PDwer) (By leave) .-1 shall agree to an adjDurnment of the debate for three weeks.

The motion for the adjDurnment Df the debate was agreed to, and the debate was adjourned until Tuesday, Oct0'ber 22.

MELBOURNE SAILORS' HOME (POWERS OF TRUSTEES) BILL. The debate (adjourned fr0'm Sep

tember 18) on the :mDtion of Mr. Manson (Minister of State Deve10pment) for the second reading of this BiB was resumed.

Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Thtis is a simple Bill which stems from legis,latJion passed by this House in December, 1964. Some ,memheI'1s ,may be aware ,that in 1868-exactly 100 years ag.o~there was e,stablished in Melbourne a sail0'rs' hOome whkh 'Provided accom'modati0'n, and so on, for sailors who found .it necessary to stay in this oity for some days lOr nights. In 1901, the ,institution 'was propedy stahilized by 'an A'ct of PaI"l!iament.

I'll 1903 a very substantial building was erected in Siddeley-street, West MelbOourne. That building, which has now disappeared, contained 62 sing,le rooms, three dorm'itories, a residence fOor the superintendent, a 'reading rOoom,eat.ing rOOoms, and so. on. It was splendiidlyconstructed, but, of 'course, by 1964 it had become somewhat antiquated. C0'nditions had changed, and not many sailors found it necessary to use its fa'oilities. The building was not ,modem, and those who :were in a posi1:!ion to pay for better 'accomm0'dati0'n, where they ,might obtain somethiing mOore than just bed ,and breakf.ast, usuaHy did S0'. ,As a result, in latter years the buUding 'was rarely fuBy occupied. Its only permanent residents were a number of wharf laboureI'1s. Early ,in 1964 the trustees informed the Govern'ment that they were losing ,money on the place, that it had outHved ,its usefulness, ,and that they wanted to' be 'relie'ved of their responsihi,Jity.

A BiB was presented to and passed by Par:liament. lIn a long prea'mble, it was stated that the hO'me had been erected; that in the opinion 'Of the trustees a hom'e for saBors was no

454 Melbourne Sailors' Home [ASSEMBLY.] (Powers of Trustees) Bill.

longer practicable or necess·ary; and so on. The Bill empowered the trustees to sell the Iland and buHding .and, for aU practical1intents and purposes, to w:ind up. At the tim'e, I criticized the provis-ion that the trustees ·must sell the ,land to the Melbourne Harbor Trust. I do not suppose .one should really object to. that because they first bought the Iland f'rom the Trust.

This is the sort of BiUwhi'ch is hurled at us. Now the land has been sold, we in this House are nDt told what it brDught, or whether the figure was reasonable. We 'can haza·rd a guess that it realized enough to ·cover its original cost, which was $400 for the land itself. As I have said, a substantial building was erected on it. The building has been sold and now the trustees may as well wind up their affairs. In his second-reading speech, the Minister of State Development said-

The trustees of the home have now sold the property to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Commissioners and are in possession of trust funds of approximately $83,000.

The 'Government might have informed honorable members of the selling price of the building and how much of that money represented funds accumulated over the years. We do not really expect any details from the present Government; it just flings a Bill at Parliament and, because it has the numbers, takes it for granted that the 'measure win be passed, ·as it wiH. There ·can be no bask objection to the principle which is to be followed jnarranging for the dispositiDn of the surplus funds. The amount in the trust fund is $83,000. In his second-reading speech the Minister of State Development said that trustees of the Melbourne Sailors' Home were also trustees of what was known as the Victorian Shipwreck Relief Society Fund. This fund was originally established in the early stages of this century to provide relief for certain individuals or their dependants who suffered by reason of ship wrecks. Of recent years there 'hasbeen no

Mr. Clarey.

claim on the fund and at 31st December, 1967, the trustees had $22,609.07 accumulated in it.

The Minister did not tell the House who the trustees were. He said that the trustees made certain proposals to the Government and sought the approval of the Governor in Council to transfer the funds to various organizations. The opinion of the Crown Solicitor was that it was clearly beyond doubt that the application of trust funds to two of the recommended organizations was not authorized by section 3 of the 1964 legislation. The Minister did not tell the House what the trustees suggested and he did not even name the trustees. They were referred to in the 1964 legislation and I have ascertained that they are Theophilus Howell Swanton; Thomas Langley Webb; the Honorable Archibald Todd, M.L.C., who was a member of this House from 1955 to 1958; and Reginald Havill Norman.

The trustees made certain proposals to the Government, which said that the proposals could not be carried out. However, the Government solved the problem. What is intended now is that the trustees are to hand the money over to the Public Trustee, who is to establish two trust accounts. In the Melbourne Sailors' Home account there is $83,000, which is distinct from the amount in the Shipwre:ck Relief Society Fund. Once this money is handed over to the Public Trustee it is proposed that $45,000 shall be allocated to the Missions to Seamen and $17,500 to the Stella Maris Club. I had to find out the address of that organization from the telephone book and I would not expect the Government to tell the House what this organization does. I am sure that most honorable members have heard of the Missions to Seamen but I had not heard about the activities of the Stella M'aris Club. However, I understand it is a Roman Catholic organization which looks aft~r the .interests of seamen. It is to get $17,500, and it can do as 1t likes with it. I do not suggest that

Melbourne Sailors' Home [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] (Powers of Trustees) Bill. 455

either of these bodies will do anything wrong, but we are giving public money to outside bodies, and saying, "You can do what you like with the money".

Another $17,500 is to be put into a Sailors Welfare No. 1 Account. These allocations total $80,000, leaving approximately $3,000 to go into a Sailors Welfare No. 2 Account. All of the money held in the accounts of the Shipwreck Relief Society Fund is to go into the No. 2 trust account. This is where I think the Minister was misleading. He said in relation to the original $83,000 that an allocation of $17,500 was to be made to the Seamen's Union of Australia to be held in a trust fund. I point out that the money does not go to the Seamen's Union of Australia. It is to go into the No. 1 trust account and the Seamen's Union of Australia will have a certain interest in the nomination of the trustees. Proposed new section 9 of the principal Act provides, inter alia-

(1) For the purpose of this Act there shall be a Trust Committee to be called the Seamans Welfare Trust Committee.

(2) The Trust Committee shall be appointed by the Chief Secretary and shall consist of three members of whom two shall be selected from a panel of three names submitted by the Seamen's Union of Australia or in default of the nomination of such panel on the nomination of the Chief Secretary.

So the money is not being given to the Seamen's Union of Australia, and the Minister grossly misled the House in this regard. I do not blame the Minister because he probably did not write the speech and probably did not know much about the matter. The proposed new section 9 further provides-

(3) The Chief Secretary shall appoint one of the members to be Chairman of the Trust Committee.

The functions of that committee relate to the No. 1 trust account to which $17,500 is to be allocated.

In relation to the No. 2 trust account, proposed new section 10 of the principal Act provides, inter alia-

(1) For the purpose of this Act there shall be .an Advisory Council to be called the Seamans Welfare Advisory Council.

(2) The Council shall be appointed by the Chief Secretary and shall consist of three members of whom one shall be the Shipping Master for the Port of Melbourne.

(3) The Chief Secretary shall appoint one of the members to be Chairman of the Council. The functions of the Seamen's Welfare Trust Committee and the Seamans Welfare Advisory Council shall be to advise the Chief Secretary of appropriate means of applying any part of the capital and income of the No. 1 and No. 2 accounts for the purposes of promoting the welfare of sailors who operate within ports in Victoria or who from time to time visit ports in Victoria.

The buildings and the land have been sold, and the money is being held in trust and something has to be done with it. So the Missions to Seamen and the Stella Maris Club are to get allocations and these two trust bodies are to be set up, on one of which the Seamen's Union of Australia will have the right to nominate two trustees. I understand that neither of these organizations caters for seamen working in Australian ports but looks after seamen from overseas ports. I would have preferred some of the money to be allocated to an organization serving interstate seamen. In any case, everything has been arranged and the House must accept the Bill.

I regret that in 1964 the Government did not permit the trustees to sell this old building with 52 rooms, dormitories and kitchen facilities to one of the welfare organizations, such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, who conducts Ozanam House ; the Salvation Army, which does excellent work at what was formerly known a'S the Gill 'Memorial 'Home; or the Hanover Men's Centre in Fitzroy, which is conducted by the Protestant churches. Any of those

456 Melbourne Sailors' Home [ASSEMBLY.] (Powers of Trustees) Bill.

bodies would have welcomed such a building to assist in the welfare of the many hundreds of homeless and derelict men who constitute a problem in this State. However, the Harbor Trust Commissioners have got the buildings and we must accept that as a fact.

Mr. PHELAN (Kara Kara).-This Bill is the by-product of an Act which was passed by Parliament in 1964 to authorize the sale of the land and buildings owned by the Melbourne Sailors' Home to, as it turned out, a single bidder----the Melbourne Harbor Trust. The proceeds from the sale have since been held by the trustees, and according to the information submitted by the Minister of State Development it now totals $83,000. The way in which this money is to be disposed of is clearly set out in proposed new section 5 of the principal Act, as contained in clause 3 of the Bill. This provides for $45,000 to go to the Missions to Seamen; for $17,500 to go to the Stella Maris Club; and for $17,500 to go to the Sailors Welfare No. 1 Account. The balance of $3,000 is to go to the Sailors Welfare No. 2 Account.

Like the honorable member for Melbourne, I made inquiries regarding the functions of the organizations that are to receive the allocations set out in the Bill. I am sure that most honorable members are aware of the functions of the Missions to Seamen, but I had difficulty in finding anyone who had a detailed knowledge of the operations of the Stella Maris Club. Therefore, I think it is appropriate that I should make some comment on the functions of that club.

Under its controlling body, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, it provides for the social welfare of seafarers visiting the port of Melbourne. The club is open on Sundays, Mondays, Thursdays and Saturdays and provides games, reading matter, sporting facilities and refreshments, and caters for the general needs of

seafarers. This club is free to people of all creeds, race and colour, and I believe it is a worthy organization.

Further consideration should be given to the wording of the Bill in relation to the allocations to the No. 1 and No. 2 trust accounts. I was interested when reading the Bill in trying to ascertain the justification for these two trust accounts. The functions of the Seamen's Welfare Trust Committee and the Seamans Welfare Advisory Council and the purposes for which the funds are established are identical. However, I point out to the honorable member for Melbourne that he was not quite correct when he said that both these bodies would make recommendations to the Chief Secretary for the disbursal of the capital of the funds. Sub-section (5) of proposed new section 9 of the Bill provides-

The Trust Committee shall from time to time determine the most appropriate means of promoting the welfare of sailors who operate out of ports in Victoria or who from time to time visit ports in Victoria and shall have power to direct the Public Trustee to apply any part of the capital or income in the Sailors Welfare No.1 Account to promote the means so determined and none other.

In other words, the disbursal of the funds is not at the behest of the Chief Secretary. He will appoint one of the members of the committee to be the chairman, and two of the three nominees will come from the Seamen's Union of Australia. However the Chief Secretary may at any time remove any person so appointed and may, subject to this Act, appoint another person in his stead.

It would appear that the only time at which the Seamen's Union has any opportunity to recommend an appointment is in the initial stages of appointment of the committee. From that point onwards, the Chief Secretary may remove and reappoint as he desires. Parliament should watch this principle because the power arbitrarily to remove a nominee from a committee should not be placed in

Melbourne Sailors' Home [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] (Powers of Trustees) Bill. 457

the hands of anyone person. Any reappointment should be nominated from the original source.

Proposed new section 10 provides for the establishment .of a Seamans Welfare Advisory Council which will be appointed in toto by the Chief Secretary. 1 cannot understand why the Government did not say straight out that the No.2 account would be administered by the Chief Secretary. The Minister appoints every member of the council and may at any time remove any person so appointed and appoint another person in his stead. It is provided that the function of the council shall be to advise the Chief Secretary from time to time.

Frequently the expression "advise" is used without any indication of any obligation being placed on the Minister to act on the recommendation. Sub-section (6) of new section 10 provides that the Public Trustee shall apply out of the said account such sums as the Chief Secretary may direct. There is no obligation on the Chief Secretary to: act on the recommendations of the advisory council, but the Public Trustee must act on the directions of the Chief Secretary and pay moneys out of the account to such sources as the Chief Secretary may direct. 1 have no doubt that the Trustee would act responsibly and that the Chief Secretary would be limited to directing that the funds should be used in certain ways. According to the Crown Solicitor, the recommendations as to the proposed disbursement of the funds accumulated from the sale of property were not in order. Proposed new section 10 involves a principle which is not in the best interests of a democratic SOCiety.

The Government is careful to ensure that a quorum must be present at all meetings of the trust committee and the advisory council. The chairman of the committee and the chairman of the council are to be appointed by the Chief Secretary, and in the absence of the chairman a member shall be elected by those members

present to preside over the meeting. A decision of the majority of the members at any meeting upon any matter shall be the decision of the committee or the council on that matter and in the event of an equality of votes, the chairman, who is to be appointed by the Chief Secretary, shall have a casting vote. If the embroidery on this Bill were removed, it would be seen that the Chief Secretary will have absolute control over the administration and disbursement of the funds in the No.2 account.

1 suggest to the Minister of State Development that the provisions for the disbursement of public funds, as contained in this Bill, require re-examination and that the measure should be amended before it is passed by another place.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time

and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2, relating to the power to

trustees of 'Melbourne ISailors' Home to pay trust funds to the Public Trustee.

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-1 thank the two members who have spoken to this Bill for the manner in which they have considered the measure. 1 shall bring to the attention of the Chief Secretary the remarks of the honorable member for Kara Kara. Although 1 believe he is expressing fears that are unfounded, the matter will be examined.

The clause was agreed to. Clause 3, providing for the inser

tion of new sections. Mr. CLAREY (Melboume).-Pro

posed new section 9 provides for the appointment of a Seamen's Welfare Trust Committee. 1 wish to correct an error I may have made in my second-reading speech. 1 did not have before me my annotated copy of the Bill, and in consequence I probably misinformed the House in regard to the Seamen's Welfare Trust Committee, on which the Seamen's Union will have two trustees and which will

458 West Melbourne . [ASSEMBLY.] Lands Bill.

operate the No. 1 account, and the Seamans Welfare Advisory Counoil, which will operate the No.2 account.

The function of both of those bodies will be to promote the welfare of sailors who operate out of ports in Victoria or who from time to: time visit ports in Victoria. However, there is the difference referred to by the honorable member for Kara Kara, that the trust committee administering No. 1 account will have the power to determine how the money shall be expended, whereas the advisory council will have the main funcion of advising' the Chief Secretary. In the one case, the committee will have the power to determine, and in the other the council will have only the power to advise. Both have the common objective of promoting the welfare of sailors.



WEST MELBOURNE LANDS BILL. The debate (adjourned from Sep

tember 10) on the motion of Sir William McDonald (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) (By leave) .-1 desire to give notice of an amendment proposed to be moved during the Committee stage with the object of having clause 7 negatived and the following new clause inserted:-

At the end of Part II. of the Second Schedule to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Act 1958 there shall be inserted the following expression:-

"Sixthly, the lands described in <the Second Schedule to the West Melbourne Lands Act 1958."

When clause 7 of the Bill was drafted, a section of the Melbourne Harbor Trust Lands Act 1962, which has not yet become operative, was overlooked. By sub-section (2) of section 11 of the Melbourne Harbor Trust Lands Act 1962, a new paragraph will be substituted at some future time for

paragraph (d) in Part I. of the Second Schedule to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Act 1958. Upon the proclamation as public highways of the lands described in Parts I., II., IlL, and IV. of the Sixth Schedule to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Lands Act 1962, for paragraph (d) in Part I. of the schedule, there shall be substituted-

(d) The lands described in the Third and Seventh Schedules to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Lands Act 1962.

As a result of the prodamation at some future time, all those lands will be public highways and the original amendment proposed by clause 7 of this Bill will be substituted for paragraph (d), to which I referred previously.

To overcome the consequence that the present clause 7 will have only a limited effective life, it has been necessary to redraft the clause and provide for the required amendment to be inserted in Part II. of the Second Schedule to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Lands Act 1958. This is purely a drafting amendment to overcome a problem that has arisen by the overlapping amendment. I trust that this is a sufficient explanation for honorable members. If the honorable :member for Melbourne desires to use the'm, I have the relev.ant copies of the v:arious A'cts whichwiU be ia'mended by this Bill. I shall be happy tom'ake them av,aitlable fOor him or .for the honorable member .for Mildura, who is handl1ng the Bin ,on behalf of the Country Party.

Mr. CLAREY ('Melbourne).-When the M,iniste'r of Lands made his second-reading speech on th1s Bin two or three ,weeks ago, I 'was a little over-awed by the technic-alities of ,it, partkul'arly by the 'first, seoond, third, fourth and fifth schedules setting out details concerning certain areas of land, and so fOorth, and for that reason I requested ·an adjournment .of the debate !for at least two weeks. I aim grateful to the MinisteT that under date Oof 17th September he sent me a letter which was f.a'r more

West Melbourne [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Lands Bill. 459

knowledgeable and clear than the honorable gentleman's second-reading explanation. The letter was accompanied by ·amap, which showed clearly and s.j'mply the ;areas of 'land to whioh this measure relates. The Opposition does not pToopose to raise any object,ion to the BiB, although there are two or three parag'raphs from the Mlinister's second-reading speech to which I propose to refer. The honorable gentleman said, inter alia-

In connexion with plans to transfer the Melbourne City Council's wholesale fruit and vegetable market from its present location at Queen Victoria Market, North Melbourne, it was found that the available area on Footscray-road was inadequate for the planned development.

As honorable 'memhers are aware, a fish market is already operating on the eastern portion of the site in Footscray-road. On the western section of this land, as provided for in earlier legislation, another area has been made available to the Melbourne City Council, and construction of the wholesale fruit and vegetable market is now in course. The area comprising both sites was made available to the Me,lbourne City Council at ,a cost of $400,000, and it has now been found to be :inadequate. I should have thought that such an i'mportant body as the Melbourne City Council would have made proper inqU'iories to ascertain whether, in the original gr,ant, there was suffioient land for its purposes. I'll view of the urgent requirements in this regard, an area of apprOoximately 15 a'cres to the west, which is vested lin fee si'mple in the Melbourne and Metropolitan TTamways Board, w.Hl be made ;available tOo the Melbourne City Council on payment of an amount of $200,000. In place of this area of 15 acres, the Tramways Boa'rd win obta,in an area of about -the same size tOo the southeast. That area is being acquired from the Melbourne Harbor Trust Com!m~ssioners. This land wa's granted to the CommissiOoners by the Crown a few years ago, ,at no cost.

By reason of the developments that are tak,ing place, the Crown is fincfing it necessary to excise this area of 18

acres 3 roods 9 perches, :whi'ch ,is to be divested from the M'elboume Harbor Trust Commissioners, and the greater portion of that area is to be made available to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board. A s'maUer a'rea of appro~j.mately 1 acre, which is a strip of land 85 feet wide, rs being provided for the widening of FOOotscray-road and as ,road aeocess tOo the lands coloured yeUow and green on the ·map, which are to be granted to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board. Another area of appro~imately 2 acres, which again is part of tile land being divested frOom the Melbourne Harbor Trust Com:misls'ioners, is a portion of the Melbourne and MetI'lopoUtan Tramways Board's proposed Crown grant, which m,ay be used by the Melbourne and Metropoolitan Tra'mw,ays Board in connexion with the construcNon of a proposed elevated roadway to .}ink Dynon-road and Footscray-road.

Whlilst the measure ,appears to be technical, basicaHy lit relates to the sale to the Melbourne City Council of a portion of l,and whi'ch jis being acquired frOom the 'MelbOourne and ~etropOoHtan Tram.ways Board and, In place of that, the Tramways Board is to 'receive an -area of approxi'mately the sa-me s.ize from the Melbourne Harbo:r Trust Commissioners. Provislion is 'm;ade in regaro to the amount of '$200,000 which is to be charged to the ,Melbourne City Council for grant,ing it this extra 'areathat is to be disbursed subsequently by the Treasury byaI.location of $190,000 to the Tramways Board as compensation fOor its expenditure in the development of its original site and by payment of $10,000 to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Commi'ssdOone'rs for 'reclamation wor-ks effected in the a'rea which is to be divested from the Melbourne Harbor Trust's contI'lol. I have not received any advi'ce from ·the MelbOourne City Council - I would not expect adVike from it - in 'regard to this pToposed legisl'ation. I have been in touch with the chairman of the ,Melbourne and

460 West Melbourne [ASSEMBLY.] Lands Bill.

Met~opolitan Tram'ways Board, Mr. R. J. Rissan, from whom I have a communication in the .following terms:-

Thank you for the copy of the West Melbourne Lands Bill and the Minister's second-reading speech on it that you have sent me.

The Board would welcome the early enactment of the Bill.

The Ha~bor Trust Oomm'issli.oners were in the position where the Government said, 'in effect, "We are going to take the land from you. After aN, you got it for nothing ,in the fi'rst instance and y.oucannot obJect". Because .of the extr-a st.orage space and acc'Om'modati.on that wiU be needed as a result ofcontainerizatrion, the Commissioners are -anxiOous to retalin as much land lin that area as possible, but apparently they have raised no objection to the proposal. I'll view of the great devel.opment that wiH take place 'with the 'extension 'Of the new fruit ,and vegetable m;arket by the Melbourne City Council, I 'cannot say that the Oppositton could object to the pr-oposal. I thank the Minister :for the olearcomrmunication he forwarded to me and for the n1icely coloured maps whi'ch he p;~oVlided.

Mr. WHITING (Mildura).-The Count'ry Party supports the BiB. It is obvious to anyone who has visited the Queen Victor.ia M,arket and seen semi-trailers being unloaded under conditions that ,were designed f.or the horse and 'cart days that 'in the last decade or so the market has become outmoded. Enactment of the Bill is necessary because ,it Ii,s erssential that the new wholesale fruit and vegetable 'market that is being established in Footscray-road should be suffiCiently large to cope with further development that will take place in the transport field during the next 100 years. It is .obvious that the piece of land that w,as owned by the 'Me'lbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board should have been included with the area contrOolled by the Melbourne Oity CouncH f,or the purpose Oof the new 'market. It i!s ,interesting to' note the repercuss,ions that took place

when the Melbourne and Metropo.J.itan Tramways Board was asked virtually to seU its piece orf ,land to the Melbourne City CouncH and then be reimbursed with an area of land from the Melbourne Harbor Trust, again fO'r a consideration. After discussions among the parties concer:ned~ a d~cision was re-ached and tins BIll vabdates that deoision. I t'rust it will have the desired effect .of making everybody as happy as poss.jbl~ '!-lnder the circumstances and provIdmg ,more than an adequate area fOor the m,arket site.

The Bill ,revokes the original Crown grant of the Melbourne and Met'ropolitan Tram'ways Board and reissues 'another .one to the Melbourne City CounciL It revokes a Crown grant to the ,Melbourne Harbor Trust on the south side .of Foots'craY-l"load and re-aBocates that to' the Melbou~ne and Mertropol'itan T'ramways Board ,as well as two or .three smaller areas 'whkh are required, lOne of which is a strip of 55 feet for the whole length oQf the ,area on the south side of Footscray-r.oad fO'r an exte!lsion .of that road, which is, and wIH no doubt continue to. be, . a. busy thoroughfare. The other prOVIS!Ion:elates to a sm'all piece .of !land pr.o,vlding acces's to ~he A1?Pleton Do~k area. In diSCUSSIons WIth the chalrm,an of the Melbourne Ha~bor Tr~st, it was dear that he was not part:lculady happy about th.e ?ituation. !he Har.bor 'f.rust C.om'mrISS'l'Oners beheve that with the containerization wharf that' is at present being built, the Trust will need every piece .orf land that is available for servicing the area. EventuaHy, they agreed toO accept this proposal, and .natu~aUy wHrI m:ake the best of the s'ItuatIon.

The interesting point that arises is that whilst the Melbourne md Metropolitan T'ra'm'wa~s .Boar~ be.lie~es that the site that 'It liS ,relInqUIshIng to the Melhourne' Oity Coundol ,is one of the best sites -it ever had, it is happy to take the new area from t:he Melbourne Harbor Trust bec:ause WIth it goes a payment .of $190,000. This will materially help the Board in its

West Melbourne f[1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Lands Bill. 461

transactions within the next year or two. The need for an additional area was que'ried by Ime, and I have been informed that it lis realized that :in the long run the Melbourne and MetropolHan Tramways Board will have many ,more buses than at present and that this area will be required for a servicing depot. It is central to the city area, ;and lit :is as good a s.ite as the Board could see within reasonable distance of the centre of the city. AHhough hon.orablemembers might think more particularly in terms of the Board's tramway system, the're could be a trend fDr Imore and 'more buses to be introduced. Buses require a great deal more 'maintenance than tra'ms.

In his second-reading speech, the Minister stated that the proposed new Crown :grant t.o the Melbourne City Council would be 'Subjeot to such covenants, conditions, reservations, restrictions and exceptions as the Governor in Council thinks fit. This appears to be a very wide coverage of any usage that the Melbourne City Council may make of its Crown grant. The Bill includes a special provision requiring the land to be used at all times as a site for a market and other municipal purposes. I cannot help wondering what this might eventually mean. It is to be hoped that the new market building, which is now under construction, will be completed at the earliest possible moment and that the transfer t.o the new site ,will be m,ade with the ut'most speed.

The conditions required of the Melbourne City Council will not be too onerous because there may be other developments. I cannot help but wonder if the conditions imposed by this Bill may be heavier than expected. The Melbourne Harbor Trust has stated that whilst it was not happy about the land being handed over to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board, the transfer would -create the least chaos in its planning. I suppose that is the best the Trust could hope for in the long run.

In regard to the amendment foreshadowed by the Minister of Lands, I trust that this is a technical point which was overlooked when the Bill was drafted and that the amendment will satisfactorily cover the situation. I trust that the site will be large enough for the purpose and that interest will now centre on the disposal of the present Queen Victoria Market site. One can conjecture a great many possibilities because the Melbourne City Council has already made certain suggestions and I have not noted any acceptance or rejection of them. It is to be hoped that eventually this area will be developed and that some remuneration may be directed to the advantage of the people who use the new market site because after all they have had to put up with considerable inconvenience over many years at the present Queen Victoria Market site.

I trust that the Bill will have a speedy passage, and that the area concerned will be fully developed. Without doubt it will be of tremendous importance to primary producers throughout the State.

Mr. FLOYD (WiHiamstown}.-MY purpose in entering this debate is to confuse the Government in an endeavour to convince it that it is now creating a precedent. On several occasions my colleague, the honorable member for Melbourne, stated that this is a very complex Bill because a number of Departments are exchanging land. The honorable member instanced the fact that the -market is to be extended and is impinging on land owned by the 'Melbourne Harbor Trust and the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tram-ways Board. In this mix-up some agreement has been reached where one authority is to take one little piece of land and another authority will move up the road to another location. One body is say-ing, "We do not like it very much, but are prepared to do it. "

On numerous occasions in this House during debates on Supply, the Budget, railway loan application Bills

462 West Melbourne [ASSEMBLY.] . Lands Bill.

and other Bills, Ministers are not very interested, when the debate is merely in general terms, and one does not expect them to take very much notice. However, 1 take this opportunity of asking the Minister why on this occasion it is possible to transfer land from one Department to another, despite the complexity of the transaction. The Opposition is not opposed to the Bill, but its members would like to know how on this occasion the ownership of land can be changed without going through Consolidated Revenue. 1 feel that 1 should be permitted to ask this question on this propitious occasion, thus giving the Minister an opportunity to inform the House why the Railway Department is allowed to hold on to land which it will never use. The land was granted to the Commissioners in the days when land was plentiful, when reserves for railways 'could be given on a generous scale.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie). - Order! The honorable member is getting off the point. He may give an illustration only.

,Mr. FLOYD.-I shall not develop it, Mr. Speaker. I ask a simple question: How is it that on this occasion the Railway Department, the Melbourne Harbor Trust and the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board can become so friendly as to swap land between them without going through Consolidated Revenue? How is it that when some honorable member discovers some surplus land belonging to the Railway Department, or the Education Department, or some other Department, and advocates its transfer to the Housing Com'mission for the provision of low-rental housing units, difficulties are encountered?

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member is getting on to an entirely different subject and is not merely giving an illustration.

Mr. FLOYD.-Mr. Speaker, I am trying to convey that this Bill enables land to be transferred from one

Department to another. Now I am asking through you, 'Mr. Speaker, how land can be transferred in the way 'Outlined in this Bill, whereas on numerous other occasions such transfers have had to go through the intricacies of Consolidated Revenue. Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your indulgence. I did not intend to trespass on the excellent contribution to the debate made by my colleague, the honorable member for Melbourne, but our opportunities to press these points are very limited.


The Bill was read a second time and committed.

Clause 1 was agreed to.

Clause 2 (Interpretation).

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-1 thank the honorable member for Melbourne and the honorable member for Mildura for the co-operation they displayed in discussing this Bill at the second-reading stage. 1 do not propose to thank the honorable member for Williamstown because he led off by saying that he intended to throw the Government into confusion. The honorable member pointed out that this Bill authorizes the transfer of land between Departments without payment to Consolidated Revenue. I would remind the Committee and the honorable member for Williamstown in particular that this Bill was introduced on a message, so that the honorable member's point was specifically covered. I remind the honorable member also of the following quotation the honorable member for Melbourne gave from my second-reading spee·ch :-

The Bill provides for payment into Consolidated Revenue of the consideration of $200,000 to be paid by the council in connexion with the issue of a new Crown grant for market purposes. It is to be disbursed subsequently by the Treasurer of the State by allocation of $190,000 to the Tramways Board as compensation for its expenditure in the development of its original site, and by payment of $10,000 to .the "Melbourne

Adjournment. [1 OCTOBER, 1968.] Adjournment. 463

Harbor Trust Commissioners for reclamation works effected on the area which is to be divested from the control of the Trust. 1 regret that the honorable member for Williamstown was not able to produce the confusion that he expected.

The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 3 to 6.

Clause 7 was negatived.

Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands) .-1 propose the following new clause, to follow clause 6-

AA. At the end of Part II of the Second Schedule to the Melbourne Harbor Trust Act 1958 there shall be inserted the following expression :-

" . Si~thly, the lands described in the Second

Schedule to the West Melbourne Lands Act 1968." 1 explained the purpose of this clause during the second-reading debate, and commended it to the Committee.

The new clause was agreed to, as were the schedules.

The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through its remaining stages.

ADJOURNMENT. MELBOURNE CITY ABATTOIRS: REPORT

OF MEAT INDUSTRY COMMITTEERAILWAY DEPARTMENT: TRAFFIC ON ALBION-BROADMEADOWS Loop LINE-EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: TELEPHONE EXTENSION FOR ALBERTSTREET, BRUNSWICK, STATE SCHOOL.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec-retary) .-1 move-

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until tomorrow, at half-past Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Sec

retary) .-1 move-That the remaining business be postponed.

Mr. CLAREY (Melhoume).-I ·ask whether the Govern'ment will afford members an early opportunity to discuss the Meat Industry Committee's report upon the future of the city abattoirs at Newmarket, listed on the Notice Paper under General Business. This is a matter of great urgency.

The Premier in reply to question No. 1 on today's Notice Paper indicated that he was aware of the intention of the Melbourne City Council to lease the city abattoirs to a private business undeIitaking.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! The honorable member is not discussing the question-

That the remaining business be postponed. Mr. CLAREY.-I am impelled to

raise the matter at this stage in view of a newspaper report that appeared a few days ago. Although a report has been presented to Parliament containing the unanimous recommendation of the Meat Industry Committee that it is essential that the abattoirs at Newmarket should be operated by a statutory authority, the Melbourne City Council proposes to take a certain course of action before this Parliament has had an opportunity to discuss the matter.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 shall discuss the matter with the Premier to see whether the report can be discussed at an early date. I am fascinated by the fact that the committee recommends that the abattoirs should be run by a statutory authority, but does not suggest how the necessary money can be found.

The motion was agreed to. Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Se'c

retary) .-1 move-That the House do now adjourn. Mr. GINIFER (Deer Pat'k).-I direct

the attention of the Minister of Transport to problems confronting the people living in the Avondale Heights-East Keilor-Niddrie-Airp'Ort West section of the metropolis.

Because of the development of the radial system of roadways, there is no cross-connexion enabling people to travel from Albion to the Broadmeadows area. As reported at page 3195 of Hansard of 1 st March, 1967, 1 asked the Minister of Transport-

How many trains per week use the Albion-Broadmeadows loop line, indicating the number of broad-gauge and standardgauge trains respectively?

464 Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

The Minister replied-Two hundred and seventy-five. One hundred and fifteen broad gauge. One hundred and sixty standard gauge.

As reported at page 307 of Hansard of 25th September of this year, I asked the Minister of Transport a similar question-

How many broad-gauge and standardgauge trains, respectively, use the AlbionBroadmeadows loop line each week?

The honorable gentleman replied-Traffic requirements fluctuate, but the

average number of trains using the line per week is 105 broad-gauge and 169 standard-gauge.

This information indicates a falling off in the use of broad-gauge trains and an increase in the use of standa'rd gauge trains. I ask the Min1ister to consider the provision of two or three extra broad-gauge trainsperhaps diesel rail motors-daily on this line to provide a cross-connexion for the people to the highways to Ballarat, Bendigo and Albury, and points in between.

Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East) . -On Monday last 1 visited the Albertstreet, Brunswick, State School, No. 1213, to confer with the head master. It is interesting to note that in a few years' time this school will celebrate its centenary. During my conference I was amazed to learn that, although this school has a student population of 1,000 and a staff of 30 teachers, there is no extension for the telephone, which is situated in the head master's office. In the course of our discussion, he received a telephone call for a member of his staff. He immediately called the teacher through the pubHc 'address system-the microphone was also. located in his office-and it was necessary for the staff member to take this call in our presence while we were discussing matters relevant to the school.

The head master informed me that he had applied to the Education Departmen t for an extension to the telephone to be placed in the infant mistress's room, but he was told that it was not the practice of the Department to provide telephone extensions

in State schools. It seems fantastic that, in this modern age, only one telephone is provided for the head master and a staff of 30 teachers in a school accommodating 1,000 pupils. From time to time, :it is necessary for staff members to take calls of an urgent nature, and although the head master may be engaged in conference, they must be taken in his office.

There are telephone extensions in almost every office in the Education Department, and' properly so. I request the Minister of Education to consider the installation of a telephone extension in the infant mistress's office, where staff members can take telephone calls when the head master is engaged in conference.

Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) .-1 appreciate the suggestion of the honorable member for Brunswick East that we should support the Federal Government by giving it more telephone revenue. 1 invite him to see .conditions in my office during the day, or better still, to 'consider problems concerning telephone extensions in Parliament House. This 'is a real problem, and I have suffered ~t for th'irteen long years. It is easy to suggest that there should be more telephones, more extensions and other facilities. 1 go through the ordeal of ringing my office almost daily, and I assure the honorable member for Brunswick East that 1 know what the problem is. 1 shall direct his representations for the sympathetic consideration of the Minister of Education.

Mr. WILCOX (Mdnister of Transport) .-1 shall be happy to refer to the Railways Commissioners the matter raised by the honorable me'mber for Deer Park and ask them whether anything can be done for his constituents. I appredate the research undertaken by the honorable member for the benefit of his constituents.

Avis Rent-A-Car [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] System Pty. Ltd. 465

So that the Commissioners may have a starting point in considering the matter, I ask the honorable member to forward me a letter documenting the reasons why he believes this extension of service is necessary.


The House adjourned at 10.29 p'.m.

tfjrgililatiur Qtnuuril.

\Vednesday, October 2, 1968.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett) took the chair at 4.30 p.m., and read the prayer.

AVIS RENT-A-CAR SYSTEM PTY. LTD.

MEMBERS: GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Melbourne North Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) Will the Minister inform the House of the number of members of Avis Rent-ACar System Pty. Ltd., of which company the Chief Secretary is a director?

(b) Is the Chief Secretary aware of contracts having been reached between that company and-(i) Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Commonwealth; and (ii) Her Majesty in right of the State of Victoria?

(c) Is the Minister aware that any member of the Victorian Parliament who is a member of Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd., a company of less than twenty members and having contracts with Her Majesty, offends against section 24 of The Constitution Act Amendment Act 1958?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answers are:-

(a) Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd. is incorporated in New South Wales and no particulars of its members are registered in this State. However, I understand that the number of members is three.

(b) Since the Chief Secretary became a director of Avis Rent-A-Car no agreements have been negotiated with Her Majesty the Queen either in right of the Commonwealth or of the State. However, the Chief Secretary is aware that prior to his becoming

Session 1968.-18

a director of Avis that company successfully tendered for a contract with the Department of Civil Aviation for the provision of rental cars at airports. Similarly, in 1961 the Victorian Railways Commissioners and Avis entered into an agreement, which apparently is still operating, for cars to be available for rental at Spencer-street and Mildura railway stations.

(c) Yes, but there is no member of the Victorian Parliament who is a member of Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd.

HOUSING COMMISSION. HOMES IN SALE AREA.


(a) How many homes does the Housing Commission own in the Sale area?

(b) How many more homes the Commission proposes to build in the Sale area?


(a) It owns 519 houses and 26 flats of which 183 houses have been sold.

(b) Twenty-four houses and sixteen lone person flats are currently being constructed or let to contract and the 1968-69 building programme provides for a further six houses to be let to contract.

Future construction in the Sale area will be related to the demand for housing.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. PUBLICATION, "THE COST OF FREE

EDUCATION": COMPOSITE FEES: SCHOOL UNIF0RMS.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Education-

(a) Is he aware of the article which appeared on page 19 of the Herald newspaper of the 27th September last reviewing the publication entitled The Cost of Free Education by Brotherhood of St. Laurence researchers Judith O'Neill and Janet Paterson?

(b) Will he inform honorable members of the Education Department's attitude towards the claims made in this review?

The Hon. L. H. S. TIlOMPSON (Minister of Education) ,-The answers are:-

(a) Yes. (b) In the matter of school uniform and

composite fees the Education Department stands behind the school principals. The

466 Education [COUNCIL.] Department.

composite fees are levied in order to provide additional sports equipment, lockers, the school magazine, additional class sets of reference books and so on. This fee is paid in one amount rather than making a series of requests to parents throughout the school year.

The total amount raised is spent during the current year and is devoted to the purpose for which the money is raised. Some schools do request payment of this composite fee in December of the previous year as a matter of convenience to the parent and to the school. In this way the burden is spread over a period but it is not compulsory for the fee to be paid in December but it is often convenient for parents to make the payment at that time. It must be remembered that this fee covers expenditures over the whole school year and when this is considered the amounts involved are not high. If there is more than one child from a family attending a school a reduction is made. I can find no evidence to substantiate the suggestion that in some schools pupils who fall behind in payment of levies are given detentions.

The matter of school uniforms and the cost of these are also mentioned in the review. There is a strong body of opinion that unifoIims are cheaper, they remove unhealthy competititon in the matter of dress among pupils and they contribute to school unity and spirit. The initial expense is perhaps high but most uniforms will last for at least three or four years and are undoubtedly less expensive than a series of dresses or suits which are subject to the various trends in fashions.

Most schools can offer help to pupils in necessitous circumstances with the purchase of second-hand uniforms and there are also departmental provisions for maintenance allowances in cases. of need. In fact a good deal of assistance is· provided in these ways, for example, at Fitzroy Girls' Secondary School.

Observation in the United States of America and Canada where pupils do not wear school uniform would indicate that the cost to parents is significantly higher than it would be if a uniform were worn. Further, pupils do not identify themselves with the school in the same way and there is a great deal of unhealthy competition in the matter of dress which school principals would gladly be without. Too, under these circumstances the needy child is infinitely worse off than he or she is in Victoria.

I would be very surprised if pupils leave school at fifteen years of age purely because of these factors; Miss R. Thompson, principal of the Fitzroy Girls' Secondary School, this morning expressed her belief that girls at her school do not leave school for these reasons.

The Hon. L. H. S. Thompson.

RICHMOND HIGH SCHOOL: SAFETY OF

PUPILS.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Education-

Now that the long delayed Richmond High School is taking shape will the Minister undertake investigations to ensure the safety of the pupils crossing the Yarra Boulevard to attend the school?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education) .-the answer is-

The Traffic Commission, the l()cal municipal council and the school advisory council will all be consulted on this subject.

JUNIOR SECONDARY SCIENCE PROJECTS.

For the Hon. M. A. CLARKE (Northern Province), the Han. C. A. Mitchell asked the Minister of Education-

Following his answer to question No. 19 asked in this House on 24th September last to the effect that nine sets of the junior secondary science project for Form I. in high schools cost $428 and the total subsidy is $25-(i) has the Education Department recommended that this project is virtually essential for science studies in Form I.; (ii) how does the Department expect high schools to finance this purchase; (iii) will a further project of the same nature be recommended for Form II.; if S(), what will be the cost and the subsidy for the Form II. project; and (iv) will he consider a greatly increased subsidy for the purchase of the project?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answer is-

(i) No; it is regarded as helpful for science studies in Form I., but not essential.

(ii) Principally from their own funds, with some assistance from subsidies.

(iii) A project fur Form II. is nearing completion. It will have the same recommendation as in (i) above. Costs and therefore subsidy are not known at present.

(iv) The maximum aid possible will be given when the availability of funds is fully resolved. An early meeting will be held between representatives of the Ministers of Education in South Australia, Tasmania and Victoria together with representatives of the Commonwealth Department for Education and Science and the Australian Council for Educational Research to discuss the methods of financing the new course.


OAK PARK AND BROADMEADOWS EAST STATE SCHOOLS: RENOVATIONS.


When is it proposed to call tenders for the external repairs and painting of the Oak Park and Broadmeadows East State schools, Nos. 4721 and 4732, respectively?


The specifications for the painting and external repairs of State School No. 4721 Oak Park have been completed, and it is expected that tenders will be called either late this month or in early November.

External painting at State School No. 4732 Broadmeadows East was last carried out in 1966. It is not proposed to undertake any further external painting at this stage.

Cor..,IMONWEALTH CIVILIAN TRADE INSTRUCTORS: TRANSFER FROM ARMY ApPRENTICE SCHOOL.


(a) Is the Education Department proposing to transfer civilian trade instructors employed by the Commonwealth Public Service at the Army Apprentice School at Balcombe to the technical teachers classified roll?

(b) Have these instructors been consulted about their personal positions; if so(i) when; (ii) by whom; and (iii) was a choice offered to transfer or to remain with the Commonwealth Public Service?

(c) Have these instructors been informed about their proposed classifications and salaries upon transfer; if so, in each case what will be their classification and salary; if not, when is it proposed to forward this information?

(d) Upon what date will the transfer take place and wiII there be any need for amending legislation to give effect to this transfer?

The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Minister of Education).-The answers are-

(a) No. The Department of the Army has approached the Director of Technical Education in the matter.

(b) Not individually. (i) and (ii) On the 5th October, 1967, a representative of the Department and two representatives of the Technical Teachers' Association of Victoria visited Balcombe, spoke to the staff body and answered questions raised. (iii) Not yet but they will be given a choice.

(c) No. These could not be defined until any proposed transfer eventuates.

(d) No arrangements for transfer have been effected. Amending legislation would be necessary.

SUBSIDIES FOR BUILDINGS AND EQUIPMENT.


Of the applications for building and/or equipment subsidy totalling $75,573.96 rejected in the allocations made to date for the 1968-69 financial year-(i) what schools were involved and for what respective amounts; and (ii) for what reasons were these applications rejected as compared to those approved?


(i) The schools and amounts concerned are listed in Hansard issued on Saturday, 21st September, 1968, on pages 73 to 76. I have arranged for a copy of that answer to be forwarded to the honorable member for his own benefit.

(ii) These applications for subsidies were recei"ed after available funds were fully committed. However, the situation is at present being reviewed.

HOSPITALS AND CHARITIES COMMISSION.

FRANKSTON COMMUNITY HOSPITAL: NEW MIDWIFERY BLOCK AND OPERATING THEATRE.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister of Health-

(a) Following the acceptance by the Commission of Public Health of the urgent need for a new 45-bed midwifery block for the Frankston Community Hospital in October, 1967-(i) have the architects completed their planning and costs estimates; if so, when; if not, why; and (ii) has the hospital committee made a final decision on the siting of this unit; if so, when?

(b) When will a decision be made as to the date on which tenders will be called for-(i) the new midwifery wing; and (ii) a new operating theatre?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health).-The answers are:-

(a) (i) The hospital's architects have prepared a rough sketch plan of the theatre block only-this being the next stage in the

468 Hospitals and Charities Commission. [COUNCIL.] Monash University.

development of the hospital. They have not completed planning and cost estimates for the proposed new midwifery block.

Recently, the Hospitals and Charities Commission has been in touch with the hospital and with local medical practitioners. and will consider the provision of additional beds, subject to further discussions with the committee of management and the availability of capital funds.

(ii) A final decision has not been made on the siting of the proposed new midwifery block. Possibly it will be built on land recently acquired from the golf course.

(b) (i) Before tenders can be called for the new midwifery wing, sketch plans must be developed and plans, specifications and documents must be submitted to the Hospitals and Charities Commission for approval. It is not possible to say with certainty when a decision will be made on these. This is dependent on the provision of capital funds and the completion of current major works in 1969.

(ii) The new theatre work will be considered for approval before the proposed midwifery wing.

ROYAL VICTORIAN EYE AND EAR HOSPITAL: PROVISION OF EQUIPMENT.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD (Melbourne West Province) asked the Minister of Health-

(a) Has his attention been drawn to a report in the Age newspaper dated 1st October, 1968, indicating a serious delay in the equipping of the new Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital?

(b) In view of the importance of this hospital to the health of the people, will he investigate the matter with a view to obviating the delay?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The answers are-

(a) Yes, my attention has been drawn to the report of 1st October, 1968, relating to completion of the Royal Victorian Eye and Ear Hospital. A continuous building programme has been in progress for some years.

(b) An amount of $150,000 a year is being allocated for the building development of the hospital and is being spent progressively on capital works as they proceed. The Hospitals and Charities Commission will keep the building programme under constant review. Sketches have been prepared dealing with ward planning of the hospital in order to determine column locations in the recently completed theatre block. I understand the committee expects plans and documents to be completed towards the middle of 1969, and it should be possible to call tenders about that time.

MONASH UNIVERSITY.

PUBLIC AFFAIRS COMMITTEE.

The Hon. W. G. FRY (Higinbotham Province) asked the Minister of Education-

With regard to an election held recently at Monash University for the election of members of the Public Affairs Committee -(i) what was the total enrolment of students at Monash at that time; (ii) how many voted at this election; and (iii) what are the numbers in each of the student political parties at Monash?


(i) 8,312. (ii) 2,000.

of Education) .-The

(iii) No statistics are held by the univer· sity on the membership of the student political parties.

LAKES ENTRANCE. SAND BAR HAZARD.

The Hon. H. A. HEWSON (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

In view of the answer to question No. 20 asked in this House on 11 th September last, has the Public Works Department made any assessment of what amount of money could be spent to make the development of the entrance economically feasible; if so, would it be prepared to spend that amount of money if a guaranteed solution was agreed to?


The Department has examined various methods of improving depths on the Lakes Entrance bar for the type of vessels likely to use the port and has undertaken preliminary estimates of the order of expenditure involved.

At this stage the only economically feasible method appears to be by dredging with suitably designed plant. The Department has received approval for, and is proceeding with, investigation of the design and cost of this plant.

It should be noted that vessels servicing the off-shore oil industry are not suitably designed for use under bar conditions.

Child Welfare. [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Public Transport. 469

CHILD WELFARE. CHILD-MINDING CENTRES.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Health-

How many child-minding centres are in the Melbourne Province, what are the locations of these centres and who are the registered proprietors?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-The answer is

Seventeen. The location and registered proprietor of

each of these seventeen centres are as follows:-

Location and Proprietor. Cnr. Wellington and Hodgkinson streets,

Clifton Hill; Rev. Mother K. Davida. 350 Highett-street, Richmond; Mrs. Dora

Trezise. 319 Church-street, Richmond; Rev. Mother

M. Cherubina. 12 Vesper-street, Richmond; Mrs. Gwen

doline Carr. 90 Punt-road, Windsor; Mr. Albert Revell. 4 Cromwell-road, South Yarra; Prahran

Methodist Mission. 12 Beach-avenue, Elwood; Mrs. Ruby Carr. Presbyterian Hall, Chapel-street, Windsor;

Miss Yvonne Gaeta. 18 Broadway, Elwood; Mrs. Beatrice Mitchell. 12 Canterbury-road, Albert Park; Mrs.

Irmgard Bode. 85 Ormond-road, Elwood; Mrs. Margaret

Berko. Congregational Hall, Mitford-street, St.

Kilda; Mrs. Thelma Lever. 33A Scott-street, Elwood; The Kirk Session

of the St. Kilda-Elwood Presbyterian Church.

42 Meredith-street, Elwood; Mr. Mark Pinch. 2 Chaucer-street, St. Kilda; Mr. Walter

Nixon and Mrs. Patricia Nixon. 14 Acland-street, St. Kilda; Mrs. Etta

Silverman. 202 Gore-street, Fitzroy; Greek Orthodox

Church.

PUBLIC TRANSPORT. PENSIONER CONCESSIONS: TREASURY

REBATES.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

When was a financial rebate from the Treasury to the Victorian Railways Commissioners and the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board to compensate for the pensioners' fares concessions first introduced and what have been the amounts rebated in each of the years since?


In the financial year 1958-59, a payment of $200,000 was made to the Railway Department and $220,000 to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board towards pensioners' fares concessions. Similar payments have been made in each financial year since 1958-59.

PENINSULA AND WESTERNPORT REGIONAL PLANNING

AUTHORITY. ESTABLISHMENT.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT (SouthEastern Province) asked the Minister for Local Government-

(a) When will the Peninsula and Westernport Regional Planning Authority be established?

(b) Will the Mornington Peninsula Municipalities Association be consulted as to details prior to its establishment?

The Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government) .-The answers are-

(a) As soon as possible. (b) Letters were sent recently by the

Town and Country Planning BoaTd to each council in the proposed regional planning area seeking consultation about the establishment of the new planning authority, with a view to submitting agreed proposals as to its composition, planning area and other details.

POLICE DEPARTMENT. TRAFFIC BLITZES: PROSECUTIONS.

The Hon. G. J. O'CONNELL (Melbourne Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

(a) How many traffic U blitzes" were conducted by the Victoria Police Force from January, 1968, to August, 1968?

(b) How many motorists were proceeded against as a result of these U blitzes" and for what offences?


(a) Seven, including one which was held during the period 22nd December, 1967, to 2nd January, 1968, inclusive.

(b) The information in respect of the number of proceedings taken as a result of these traffic enforcement drives is not readily available. However, the following table sets out the total number of offences detected in respect of these drives.

470 Police Department. [COUNCIL.] Decentralization.

I seek leave of the House for the incorporation in Hansard of the table referred to without its being read.

Leave was granted, and the table was as follows:-OFFENDERS DETECTED DURING

ENFORCEMENT DRIVES-22ND 1967, TO 31sT AUGUST, 1968.

Nature of Offence.

Driving whilst blood alcohol content is more than . 05 per cent. . .

Exceeding the prescribed limit in a 35 miles per hour zone ..

Exceeding the prescribed limit in a 40 miles per hour zone . . . .

Exceeding 50 miles per hour in an unrestricted zone . . . .

Exceeding 30 miles per hour (over 3 ton R.T.R.) ..

Speeding trucks-Motor Car Act Accidents-

(a) Fail to stop after (b) Fail to give name, &C. (c) Fail to report to police

Driving offences-(a) In a manner dangerous (b) Reckless driving .. (c) Speed dangerous .. (d) Careless driving ..

Driving whilst licence cancelled or suspended ....

Double lines-Fail to keep left of .. Driving under influence of liquor or

drug.. ., .. .. In charge under influence of liquor

or drug .. .. Fail to give way at intersection .. Fail to keep to left of carriageway .. Fail to give (a) Stop signal ..

(b) Turn or diverge signal ..

Incorrect right hand turn Lighting offences (motor vehicles) Level crossings-Fail to stop, &c. Number plates (a) Damaged

(b) Obscured .. Pedestrian crossings-Fail to give

way, &c. .. .. Parking offences (various) Motor cycle riders-No safety helmet Pillion passengers (a) Speed with ..

(b) No safety helmet

Stationary tram-Passing, &c. Stop sign-Fail to observe School crossings-Fail to stop at, &c. Traffic lights-Fail to observe Unregistered motor vehicles detected Unlicensed drivers detected Bicycles-without lights .. Log books-Rest periods Other traffic offences-not specified

above

Total

The Hon. G. L. Chandler.

TRAFFIC DECEMBER,

Offenders Detected.

779

9,342

1,945

174

45 202

102 78 46

292 7

62 581

60 1,136

207

19 841 513 124

1,001 205

1,600 17 18

487

69 3,988

61 18

32 19

1,545 20

1,406 693 679

50 6

5,593

34,062

DECENTRALIZATION.

NUMBER OF DECENTRALIZED SECONDARY INDUSTRIES.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) asked the Minister of Agriculture-

What is the total number of country industries now declared as approved decentralized secondary industries and, of these, what industries have been so declared during the financial year ended 30th June, 1968, giving the location of each?

The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture) .-The answer to this question contains a long list of names of firms. I ask leave of the House to have it incorporated in Hansard without my reading it.


(a) As at 30th September, 1968, a total of 603 industries have been approved.

(b) During the financial year ended 30th June, 1968, 57 industries were approved, as follows:-Ballarat Speedometer Service Pty. Ltd.;

Ballarat. L. K. Venville, trading as Vautier Furniture

Co.; Mount Egerton. L. M. Ericcson Pty. Ltd.; Morwell. Murray Valley Food Processing Co. Ltd.;

Swan Hill. Hammond & Sons Pty. Ltd.; Warrnambool. The Cobden & District Co-operative Pioneer

Cheese & Butter Factory Co. Ltd.; Cobden.

The Cobden & District Co-operative Pioneer Cheese & Butter Factory Co. Ltd.; Timboon.

Patterson Engineering Pty. Ltd.; Mildura. Joren Plinius, trading as Plinius Ornamental

Iron Work; Ballarat. Best's Wines Pty. Ltd.; Great Western. Standard Fibrous Plaster Pty. Ltd.; Morwell. Roadmix Concrete (Warrnambool) Pty.

Ltd.; Warrnambool. Roadmix Concrete Pty. Ltd.; Hamilton. Permewan Wright Ltd.; Rochester. VI. J. Cain & Sons; Carisbrook. Filament Extruders Pty. Ltd.; Stawell. The W. A. Purvis Stores Pty. Ltd.;

Trafalgar. James Yeates and Sons Pty. Ltd.; Bairns-

dale. . J. Golsworthy & Sons; Mortlake. Best's Wines Pty. Ltd.; Lake Boga. Mytton's Ltd.; Ballarat. Cresco Fertilizers Limited; Portland. P. M. Turgoose; Nhill. The Maryborough District Co-operative

Butter Factory Company Limited; Maryborough.

Ballarat and [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Bendigo Tramways. 471

Cliff Ford & Son; Warrnambool. Berklee Products Pty. Ltd.; Ballarat. W. McCulloch & Son; Golden Square

(Bendigo). Futerieal & Spring; Coleraine. Franklin Mattress Manufacturing and Dis

tributing Pty. Ltd.; Ballarat. A. J. Bailey & D. V. Bailey, trading as

Simpson Ready Mixed Concrete; Simpson (Cobden).

Potato Products (Aust.) Pty. Ltd.; Dayles-ford.

H. & D. Panels; Stawell. W. E. Bachelor; Camperdown. G. F. G. Tatnell, trading as G. R. Glover &

Son; Bendigo. Longwarry & District Dairymen's Co-

operative Association Ltd.; Longwarry. D. Carr; Wonthaggi. G. W. & K. Dellar; Horsham. Eureka Valve Manufacturers Pty. Ltd.;

Sebastopol. L. Layfield; Kangaroo Flat (Bendigo). Hendy Steel Construction; Horsham. Peters (Vic.) Trafalgar Milk Supply Pty.

Ltd.; Trafalgar. Echuca Butter Factory & Trading Co. Pty.

Ltd.; Echuca. Gloria Manufacturing Co. Pty. Ltd.;

Bendigo. Whitelaw Monier Pty. Ltd.; Wangaratta. Monier Pipe & Tile Pty. Ltd.; Avoca. G. & A. S. Tonkin, trading as Craftwelds,

Colac. R. C. Blyth: Jumbunna. Salvatore Cardillo; Shepparton. Great Southern Joinery Works; Bairnsdate. Coola Soft Drinks; St. Arnaud. E. B. Mawson & Sons Pty. Ltd.; Cohuna. E. B. Mawson & Sons Pty. Ltd.; Kerang. Atlas Printing Press; Hamilton. Adams Safety Gloves; Ballarat. A. L. & K. Stringer; Bendigo. J. & T. Miller Pty. Ltd.; Morwell. A. & S. Seiter; Numurkah.

BALLARAT AND BENDIGO TRAMWAYS.

PROPOSED ABANDONMENT.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province}.-I move-

That this House resolves that the proposed abandonment by the State Electricity Commission of Victoria of each and all of the tramways conducted by it within the municipal districts of the City of Ballarat, the Borough of Sebastopol, the City of Bendigo, and the Borough of Eaglehawk, notice of which was given to the Minister for Fuel and Power by the Commission on the 29th August last, together with a statement specifying the tramways proposed to be abandoned and giving the reasons for and detailed particulars with respect to the proposal, and copies of which notice and statement were laid before both Houses of Parliament on the 10th September, 1968, be not made.

The Country Party is taking this action because the State Electricity Commission has given notice of its intention without a proper and full discussion with all the parties concerned to consider what can be done to establish a first-class transport system for the cities of Ballarat and Bendigo. If the Commission's proposal is implemented, the (trams will simply be taken ·away within a few months, some small sops will be given to the local people t~ ameliorate the situation, and nothing further will be done to establish a transport system for these two cities. It is essential that these centresthey are the two largest inland cities in Victoria-should have transport systems that will permit the development of the areas beyond their present population limits.

No Government, past or present~ deserves congratulations for what it has done for Bendigo or Ballarat. During the regime of the present Government, a period of thirteen years, there has been great development in the metropolitan area and in other parts of the State, but there has been none in either Bendigo or Ballarat. Two such cities in other countries of the world-they are just waiting to be developed-would be given every possible assistance to enable them to attain populations of about 100,000 each.

Much has been said about what should be done, but little has been done in either city. In both places, particularly in Bendigo, it is taken for granted that nothing will be done; The people there consider that, so far as decentralization is concerned, the Government has forgotten them. The cities of Bendigo and Ballarat, with populations of 42,000 and 56,000, respectively, need proper transport systems. Without them, they will never develop beyond their present state. People must have facilities to travel to their employment and on their everyday affairs. In areas close to Melbourne, such as Ivanhoe, development took place many years ago because the railways gave special

472 Ballarat and [COUNCIL.] Bendigo Tramways.

fare concessions to people who lived there. This encouraged people to live a certain distance from Melbourne, but no encouragement is given to the residents of Bendigo and Ballarat. The Country Party insists that the proposal of the State Electricity Commission should be abandoned.

If the people in the two cities and the municipalities concerned-the city councils and the various borough councils-could be assured by the Transport Regulation Board that they would be provided with adequate transport systems, discussions could be held with the State Electricity Commission to arrive at a basis for changing the present system. Until that is done, the trams should not be scrapped. If they were, that would be the end of the matter and the end of development.

The State Electricity Commission has stated that its total losses on the tramway systems in the two cities is $500,000 a year, but it has given no indication of how the amount is made up. The Leader of the Country Party in another place, Mr. Moss, received information that the loss resulting from payment of wages was about $30,000 to $50,000 in each place.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-They left a nought off the figure when they gave it to him.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-The point is that no breakdown of the figures has been given and we are entitled to that information. Mr. Moss can express his opinion only on the basis of the information he receives. Even the total loss of $500,000 is a fleabite compared with what the Government takes from the State Electricity Commission by its 3 per cent. turnover tax. Perhaps the Minister of Health, who appears to be an authority on these matters, can tell us just how many million dollars the Government receives as a result of that tax, and also whether the Government will continue to levy the tax. I t would be far worse for the State ·Electricity Commission to be

required to continue to pay the turnover tax than to incur losses on the tramway systems. One of the reasons why the State Electricity Commission wants to stop operating the tramway system is that it will soon be faced with competition from natural gas. The services provided in Ballarat and Bendigo may not be all that could be desired, but 3,500,000 passengers were carried on the trams in the past financial year.

If an adequate public transport system were operated in conjunction with the trams, or if it replaced them, that number could be doubled or trebled in no time. I have not been able to discuss this matter fully with the chairman of the State Electricity Commission, Mr. Connolly, who has been overseas, but he told me recently that the Commission was prepared to keep the present tramway systems in operation for possibly another twelve months, pending the substitution of a different system. No definite promise has been made.

The position is not good enough and Parliament should reject the proposal to abandon the tramway systems. The Transport Regulation Board should confer with the municipalities in the district and produce plans for well-regulated transport systems-publicy owned if that is possible-and then consider whether, in twelve months' time, the trams should cease to run and be replaced by different services. There are grave doubts whether the service provided in Geelong when the tramway system ceased to operate satisfies the people of that area.

I propose to quote from a leading article in a Bendigo weekly newspaper. Although Bendigo is more or less my spiritual home because it is the capital of northern Victoriasecond only to Swan Hill and Mildura, and a few other such places-I am not generally impressed by leading articles appearing in the newspapers there. Honorable members who represent the area should suggest to the people who write them that they


should not write editorials unless they know what they are writing about. This article states-

So it is over to bus -transport. Both systems, State owned and. private, will h~ve devotees, but, in the mam, all the paymg customers want is an adequate service as cheaply as possible. Sir Henry Bolte has said in Parliament that, because the proposed bus system would be freed from present restrictions, a new field would open and fares would be reduced. The State Electricity Commission would subsidize for five years concessions to pensioners.

No doubt the State Electricity Commission would do that gladly for only five years.

But if people are thinking in terms of cheap' fares and convenient and little used off-peak services, they will be doomed to disappointment under either. public. or private systems; the two are Incompatible.

In other words, the leader writer is content to accept that there will be unsatisfactory services with exorbitant fares.

The tram services should not be abandoned until there are concrete proposals for their replacement, and there are none now. If my suggestion for planning proper systems at conferences between the Transport Regulation Board and the local authorities were adopted, perhaps the proposal of the State Electricity Commission could be brought back to this Parliament, when it would receive more favourable consideration. I have received the following telegram, which purports to represent the views of 9,000 trade unionists in the City of Bendigo:-

Nine ,thousand unionists in Bendigo strongly support a public transport authority.

The telegram is signed, " Frost, secretary, Bendigo Trades Hall Council". No doubt other honorable members have received similar telegrams. That is a large number of people, and no doubt thousands of non-unionists hold the same view in relation to this problem.

The Government imposes the 3 per cent. turnover tax on the State Electricity Commission by means of

" stand-and-deliver " tactics. It is daylight robbery. Dick Turpin was a gentleman compared with the Treasurer of Victoria. If the State Electricity Commission continues to operate the transport systems in Bendigo and Ballarat and to lose money on them, the Government could reimburse it from the proceeds of the turnover tax. It is all very well for the Premier to say that the Commission will subsidize pensioner fares for five years. That is not" nominated in the bond" as Shylock said; it is only a matter of words.

I take it that the State Electricity Commission will stand up to its statements. Whether another transport system is substituted for the tramway service, whether it is public or private, or whether the trams are converted to provide a better service, the Commission will have to spend a lot of money. It has already stated that it is prepared to spend a sum of $1,250,000 to fix the roadway after the rails are taken up.

That is a large sum of money. I do not think the Commission should be expected to carry this burden while it is being mulct of tremendous sums of money simply to augment the Government's revenue.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-It will get this money back in five years' time.

Sir PERCY BYRNtES.--How? 'J1he Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-It will

not have the losses that are now being sustained.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-The Commission is losing $30,000 on wages of the tramway employees; therefore it must be lOSing money elsewhere and it will continue .to lose that money. The Commission has been left carrying the baby, so to speak, and .I can sympa,thize with it, but I am more symp'athetic towards the people of Bendigo and Ballarat, whO' have been taken for a ride.

The Transport Regulation Board should bring together the councils, trade unions, and other interested bodies to ensure that the action that


i's· proposed is desired by the people. Consideration should be given to the provision of a transport system that will help in the development of these Cities. While this is being done, the State Electricity Com·mission sho~ld be assisted to carry the financIal burden which now rests upon it.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North-Eastern Province) .----1 sec.ond the motion, and I reserve my rIght to speak later.

In view of the fact that no other honorable member has risen to participate in the debate, I shall now do so. Obviously, there is some hesitancy by certain honorable members in this Chamber to state their case 'in relation to this matter. I am surprised that one of the Ministers did not atte;mpt toO reply tOo my Leader's comments. The House is considering a regulation that has been brought in under section 74 of the State Electricity Act 1958, which lays down a p'rocedure by which this Government hoped to write off the tramway systems in two of the majoOr ·dties of Victoria. It is amazing that no Government member and more particularly no member' representing the provinces affected has attempted to answer the arg~ments that ·have been submitted by my Leader. Perhaps they do not wish to blot their copy books.

The Hon. S. R. McDoNALD.-There could be an election just ahead.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The possibility of an election could be in the minds of Government 'members. Surely, however, the Government has a responsibility, 'when it tables a document of the type under discussion. to submit a reply when it is challenged.

Probably, honorable members have different ideas concerning the State Electricity Commission's reasons for wishing to 'vacate the transport field in Ballarat and Bendigo. This is nothing new. Shortly after I was ~lected to Parliament, a proposal of thIS type was put forward and, from time to

time similar proposals have been submitted to successive Governments, which have refused tOo take action because they wished to continue to provide in Ballarat and Bendigo transport systems that would assist in the development and progress of the community. The present Government is prepared to scrap the tramway systems in both cities. It should be appreciated that the report which has been tabled was submitted by the State Electricity Commission which, with the assistance Df the Transport Regulatipn Board, has suggested proposals concerning what could be done to provide alternative transport systems in Bendigo and Ballarat. As my Leader stated, I should have thought that the proper procedure would be for the Government to put forward some alternative proposal before it took action of this kind.

The Government has indicated that, in conjunction with the local CDmmunities, the Transport RegulatioOn Board will determine what type of transport systems-reference has been made to bus services----should replace the existing tram services. Honorable members have heard arguments for and against trams and buses, not only in Melbourne but in other capital cities. It is well known that neither the bus service nor the tramway system in Melbourne show's a profit. Will the Government next throw the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board over to private enterprise? I invite Government members to supply an answer to this important question. The losses which have been sustained by the tramway system,s in Bendigo. and Ballarat represent oOnly chicken feed when compared with those of the Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board.

If the Govemment considers that the State Electricity Commission is not the appropriate authority to main ta"in the transport systems in Bendigo and Ballarat, surely the responsibility could be handed over to the Tramways Board which could continue the existing services at no


greater percentage loss than it incurs in connexion with its services in Melbourne. In the metropolitan area, bus services feed the tramway and railway systems but, under the Government's proposal, it is intended to scrap the entire tramway systems in Bendigo and Ballarat and to evolve some new transport system. Before allowing this document to be tabled in Parliament, the Government should have submitted an alternative proposal to enable honorable members to examine whether it would provide an adequate service for the people of Bendigo and Ballarat. The local people are also entitled to know what is proposed, so that they can say, "We are prepared to accept the abandonment Df the tramway system and we will accept in principle the introduction of a bus service. We knDw what it will CDSt, what the fares will be, how many passengers will be carried and what areas will becDvered. "

It has been stated in the press that the tramway systems in Bendigo and Ballarat do not extend to all the areas where people require a transport service. In other country towns, buses prDvide services on short routes. Obviously, therefore, the Gove·rnment could have provided feeder bus services to the existing tramway facilities at Bendigo and Ballarat. I consider that the Government has tackled this whole problem in the wrong way. That is why my party feels that the Government is trying to put sDmething over the peDple of these two cities. Government members are silent. Probably they do not want this matter debated, but surely the members who represent the two areas have something to say either for or against the proposition. I do not care on which side they argue, but they have a responsibility to inform the HDuse what they feel concerning it.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-We will.

The Hon. I. A. SWIINBURNE.Earlier, when Mr. Byrne had the oppDrtunity of participating in the

debate, he did not accept it; he wishes this motion to be defeated by default. When I conclude my remarks, he will have the opportunity Df informing the House of his views on this question. The Minister of Health, who is interjecting, can also take part in the debate, if he so desires. The two other members who represent these areas also have a responsibility to speak on behalf of their constituents. Of CDurse, they are afraid that they might lose a few votes if they do so, because only a chill breeze is needed in the Bendigo Province and the Government would be struggling to' hold it at the next election.

My Leader stated that the Government should dO' something concerning, the development Df these areas. During the debate on Supply last' night, I referred to' the Decentraliza-:tion Fund which, I believe, could be utilized to subsidize transport ,systems, whether trams or buses, in Bendigo Dr Ballarat. The House' is" entitled to know what type of trans-' port system will be provided in these' two cities. Does the Government intend that the people o.f Ballarat and Bendigo shall be forced to pay fDr their transport irrespective of the cost involved? Passengers who travel to the terminus on some routes must pay high fares. Only the Dther day in Melbourne, I saw two men get on a tram and each was charged a fare Df 35 cents. They said, "We could have travelled cheaper by taxi". What will be the fares o.n the new transport systems at Bendigo and Ballarat? Will SDme assistance be provided until the new system gets on its feet, or will it have to compete with private motor cars, in the same way as transport authorities in Melbourne?

By the time the tramway tracks are pulled up and bus services commence operating, many people will have become accustomed to. travelling in their own cars and very few people will patronize the new transport system. Surely, some form of subsidy could be provided from the


Decentralization Fund to assist in the develop,ment of these two cities. This Government has no thought for anyone outside the metropolitan area, and its members are silent.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health) .-It is obvious that there will be a combined vote of the Labor Party and the Country Party to ensure that the proposal of the State Electricity Commission is disallowed. The motion before the Chair is that the proposed abandonment of the ~allarat and Bendigo tramway systems be not made. It is proper tha t if a decision is to be made on what the Government believes should be done and what I, as one of the Parliamentary representatives for that area, believe should be done, the arguments advanced by the two parties which will combine to defeat the abandonment should be heard.

I rise as the Government spokesman and as one of the two Parliamentary representatives for the City of Ballarat in this Chamber. As a matter of interest, the six members of this Chamber who represent the three largest provincial cities in Victoria are Government members. Mr. Murray Byrne and I represent the city of Ballarat; Mr. Granter and Mr. Grimwade represent the city of Bendigo; and Mr. Thom and Mr. Gleeson represent the city of Geelong.

Irrespective of which province one represents, one endeavours to assess the public opinion concerning controversial issues. I consider that a political issue has developed because members of the Labor Party and of the Country Party believe what they have been told. However, public opinion in Ballarat is not greatly worried whether or not the tramway system is abandoned, provided that it is replaced by an adequate transport system. Honorable members should be careful of the terms of Sir Percy Byrnes's motion; if it is carried, the Ballarat tramway system will be

retained. Provided that it is replaced by a better system, residents of Ballarat will be happy.

The history of the trams in Ballarat and Bendigo is well known. They commenced operating in Ballarat in 1905 as a horse-tram system, and in Bendigo in 1903 as a steam-tram system. They were rehabilitated in the years 1934 to 1937, but during the subsequent 30 years the system progressively deteriorated to the stage where successive annual deficits totalled $7,000,000. Each year these accumulated losses increased by $500,000 in the two cities. Last night, Mr. Bradbury asked for funds to be made available to get the Ovens and Murray Home for the Aged "off the ground". Money could be provided for this and other projects if losses similar to those incurred by the tramway systems in Ballarat and Bendigo were avoided. Although the tramway system was not commenced in Geelong until 1912, it was abandoned in 1956. It was then considered that the service was not worthy of rehabilitation, and it was replaced by private bus services.

Government members believe that an excellent bus system now operates in Geelong, although supporters of the Labor Party hold an opposite opinion. Consequently that issue cannot be resolved. The people of Ballarat would be happy to see the tramway sys~em abandoned. The municipalities In the Greater Ballarat and Bendigo areas are pleased with the arrangements made by the State Electricity Commission in relation to the tracks and roadways, and it is proposed that payments shall be made to the municipalities by the State Electricity Commission over the next eight years. Mr. Murray Byrne will have something to say on that aspect and about tramway personnel. The tramway union is pleased with the results of its negotiations with the Commission concerning the employees. I do not intend to read the agreement that was reached, but


honorable members opposite must agree that fair and reasonable terms have been negotiated for the personnel concerned.

Several issues have been raised in this debate. One question is whether a public transportation system or a private bus system should replace the trams. It has also been asked whether the system of concessional fares for pensioners that has been operating for the past twelve years will be continued whatever system is established.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-And concessions for school children.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-In Ballarat, school children under the age of fifteen years and all children in school uniform get fare concessions.

The Hon. ARCHIBALD TODD.-Many private bus operators in Melbourne do not give concessions.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I have stated the present practice, and I shall explain what is proposed.

The Hon. J. M. WALToN.-That is not the position with private buses.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-I am speaking for Ballarat. I shall quote precise figures; the present tramway system serves only 38 per cent. of the population of Ballarat, and the remaining 62 per cent. is served by a private bus system-perhaps not entirely satisfactorily. However, under the Government's proposal the Greater Ballarat area, not merely 38 per cent. of it, will be served by private buses.

The subject of concessions for pensioners has been made an important issue in this debate. Because the tramway system serves only 38 per cent. of the population, the concessions are not available to the pensioners in the remaining 62 per cent. that is not serviced by the trams. However, the Government has given an undertaking that pensioner concessions will remain, and that for the next five years the State Electricity Commission will subsidize the priva'te bus operators to enable this to be done.

It has also been suggested that if the tramway service is replaced by a private bus system, fares will rise for the ordinary traveller. That is not so, and to prove my point I shall compare the present fares of the two services in Ballarat and Bendigo. On the tramway system, the fare for one section is 7 cents; for two sections, 10 cents; for three sections, 13 cents; and for four sections, 15 cents. The fares charged by the private bus operators are lower. The Premier has guaranteed that the fares will remain on the present ratio of tram as to bus.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIoT.-What is the length of the section?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-It does not matter whether the length is 15 yards or 50 yards. In Ballarat the sections of both systems run almost parallel and the bus sections are almost equivalent in length to the tramway sections. The fares charged by the private bus operators are lower; for one section the fare is 6 cents; for two sections, 9 cents; for three sections, 11 cents ; and for four sections, 12 cents. In reply to the suggestion that the introduction of the so-called private bus system will cause fares to rise, the Premier has given an undertaking that the present ratio of tram fares to bus fares will remain. As Parliamentary representative for the 'City of BaUarat, I believe that the trams should be abandoned for the good of the Greater Ballarat area.

Mr. Swinburne referred to decentralization. I am immensely proud of the development that has taken place in Ballarat, in Bendigo and in dozens of other cities which are beyond a radius of 100 miles from Melbourne. In my opinion, the members of the corner party do country areas a great disservice by de-rating what is available to citizens who live in our magnificent country towns. The city dweller constantly reads of the disabilities associated with living in country towns and cities, but cities such as Wangaratta, Shepparton, Horsham, Hamilton, and Warrnambool and those in the Latrobe Valley


-I could mention 25 such cities-are provided with every possible service and amenity. I consider that the abandonment of the tramway systems and their replacement by buses will assist in the further development of Ballarat and Bendigo.

Both of these cities are more than 100 years old and have a long history of association with gold mining. During the past ten years terrific consolidation has been taking place in those cities.

The Hon. D. G. ELLlOT.-Good old cc Digger" Dickie.

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-Mr. Elliot should get around and see these places. The skylines of these cities are changing. In the past ten years almost all of the old buildings have been demolished and modern buildings have been erected in their place. At a public gathering which I addressed at Bendigo only three weeks ago, I pointed out that people who live there might feel that the city was not developing as rapidly as they would wish but that when a person revisited the city its rapid development would come as a surprise.

Undoubtedly, an adequate trap~port system is vital to the devel. pment of cities such as these, and I should be sorry to see the pretJent tramway systems retained, as they will be if the motion under discussion is agreed to. If that position arises, the Government will not have the opportunity of introducing into these cities the ingredients of the development which members on the other side of the House say that the Government is doing nothing to sponsor. The citizens of Ballarat and Bendigo have a right to adequate transport systems, and they can be provided only by buses. The Government believes that a private bus system will suffice. Privately-operated bus systems have operated satisfactorily in Geelong, and history has shown that those systems are able to maintain or reduce the fares charged on publiclyowned systems.

The Transport Regulation Boar~ has carried out a great deal of work in conducting a survey of the needs of Ballarat residents. An example of this is that at present it takes nearly three-quarters of an hour for a child to travel from Sebastopol to the Ballarat East High School. One of the Board's proposals is that a private bus system will make short cuts to enable the children to undertake that journey in fifteen minutes or less. I presume that members of the Labor Party will oppose the abandonment of the tramway systems, and in following that course I think they will do the people of Ballarat and Bendigo a great disservice. With all of its political implications-and Mr. Swinburne challenged me on this-I believe that on this question members of the Labor Party and of the Country Party have backed a loser. Members of those parties in this House do not represent Ballaarat Province. Thev cannot even reach first base. C0U11try Party members may think they will gain some ground iin Ballaarat Province by support'ing the motion now under discussion, but I can assure them that they will not. I believe that Sir Percy Byrnes's motion should not be agreed to, and that the trams should go from Ballarat and Bendigo. In that way the people of Ballarat will receive justice in having an adequate private bus system which will maintain or reduce the existing fares.

For a period of five years concessions will be granted to all pensioners. and not only to the 38 per cent. of pensioners who now receive them.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Who will pay the subsidies for the concessions, the Government or the State Electricity Commission?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The State Electricity Commission.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Do you think that is a proper function of the Commission?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-That body has been losing $500,000 a year in the operation of the existing tram-


way systems, and by this means it will be able tn rid itself of that burden at a reduced figure of approximately $50,000.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Can you tell me under what section of the Act the State Electricity Commission has power to expend public moneys in this way?

The Hon. V. O. DICKIE.-The chairman of the Commission has advised that it is able to take this action. He knows the Act backwards, and this proposal has the support of the Government.

As a representative of the city of Ballarat, I shall be sorry if this motion is agreed to. It will be a backward step and a denial of justice to the citizens of that city.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Ballaarat Province) .-Mr. Swinburne challenged me to discuss this matter, and I am happy to accept the challenge. It involves a question of .gre~t importance to' me and one WhICh IS of intense local interest. It is rather strange that it should be brought up in a motion of this kind.

Unlike Mr. Swinburne, I have travelled on the trams in Ballarat for most of my life. My family still travels on them. I know most of the people engaged in working on the trams; in fact, my neighbour is a tram driver and I have relatives who derive their livelihood from the trams. I am honest enough to say that my colleagues who represent the area and I have been concerned over a number of years with regard tn suggestions that the tramway system should be abolished. The Minister of Health has recited some of the history of the tramway services in the cities of Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong. In 1929, as part of its undertaking to carry out the electrification of those areas, the State Electricity Commission accepted the responsibility, under an Act. of Parliament, of operating the services. Since that time the Commission has made many attempts to rid itself of this responsibility, and approaches have been made

to Governments of every political colour. I remember that when I first entered this Parliament there was a move afnot by the State Electricity Commission to abandon this responsibility in Ballarat, and again I am honest enough to say that I strongly opposed the Commission on. that occasion. The matter was raIsed a number of times and on each occasion I had the opportunity of discussing the over-all consequences of the abandonment of the tramway system.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-This is the first time it has ever been tabled in Parliament.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-Mr. Galbally is well aware, and Mr. Swinbourne has stated in this House, that the State Electricity Commission has indicated that it was anxious to rid itself of the trams.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The Commission cannot be blamed for that.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I am not blaming the Commission; I am merely pointing out what it did. As I have said, on the occasions on which this matter arose I, and my colleagues who represent the area, gave consideration to the cnnsequences of abandonment of the trams, particularly as they affected the future of the men who worked on the system. Upon reflection, I suppose it was the effect of such an action upon the employees of the tramway system which was the major reason for my opposition to the proposal.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-You are talking about opposing it in the party room. The proposal has never come before the House before.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-Mr. Galbally may speak about it later, if he wishes to do so.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Where did you oppose it?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I opposed the State Electricity Commission's suggestion that it should abandon the tramwav system, as, apparently, did Mr. Swinburne.

480 Ballarat and rCOUNOIL.) Bendigo Tramways.

The Han. J. W. GALBALLY.-Where did you say this?

The Han. MURRAY BYRNE.-I opposed it as a local member. It became a public matter and many public meetings were held. Members of the Labor Party attended those meetings and took some part in the discussions. It was a public issue.

A number of points are relevant to a discussion on this motion. One which is directly relevant is the question of what is to be the position of State Electricity Commission employees who work on the tramway systems in Ballarat and in Bendigo. There are 100 persons employed on the trams at Ballarat and approximately 90 at Bendigo. When the suggestion to abandon the tramway system was made, I had many conferences with the employees and with the union. I was first approached in October of last year, and on that occasion I sat down with the interested parties and we worked out what we felt would be a good case for the men who were involved. The union later approached me to give evidence on its behalf at an inquiry, and on that occasion I raised several matters which were then, and still are pertinent. '

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-Which union?

The Han. MURRAY BYRNE.-The Australian Tramways and Omnibus Employees' Association. I have correspondence in my possession from the secretary of the Ballarat branch, Mr. Courtney. 1 was concerned because these men are employees of the State Electricity Commission which is a Government instrumentality, and there is a strong presumption that men employed by a Government instrumentality have some security of tenure. One of the so-caHed privileges of work,ing for the Government is that a person has 'continuity .of employment. Of 'course, Government emp:loyees suffer -many disadvantages, especially people whO' work on tramways and other publk services in that

they have to work at odd hours. vhe House must consider that these men have some extra rights over and above the rights of other peO'ple ~n the community.

Another i,mportant matter is that a large number of men who are working for the Ballarat tra-mways-I think the position is similar in Bendigohave given continuous service for many years. The union informed me that there were some 34 men over the age of 55 years and that -a large proportion of them have given continuous service. Very few of these men have any alternative skHls which would enable them to take other forms of elmployment. They have families in Ballarat, where they have lived .for -many years. Of the 100 men employed, 43 own their own ho'mes or are purchasing them in the city of Ballarat. The problems of these people are greater than those of persons ,in the lal'1ger centres. It is much harder for a ,man who is purchasing a home, and has his roots in a city such as Ballarat, to' transfer to other employment.

Again, I stated at the inquiry that some special consideration should be given to these men to assist them lin purchasing hOomes, or transferring the!ir families to other h.omes, and that basically they should be assisted to buy homes away from Ballarat. The persons who have to becOonsidered are those who are and have been employed on the tram-ways for many years.

A further matter that I think should merit specia,l consideration is that ;if an alternative system of transportation -is ,instituted there is certainly a responsibiltity on the part of the State Electricity Com'mission, and even on the part of the Government, to ensure that the 'men who have given service to both of these 'cities-Ballarat and Bendigo-should be given preference. Of course, their training should be -at the expense of the State Electricity Com'moission.


These are some of the m'atters that I ra'ised, and I had the support of my coHeagues. In fairness to the State Electricity CO'm,mission, it is interesting to note exa·ctly what it agreed to do. This is a m·atter of real 1mportance in this issue. Ac·cording to the Commission, 'it agreed to give its tramway employees liberal retrenohment benefits. It is worth while noting what the Com'mission has offered to pay the men who would be affected by its actions. In a number of cases substantial payments would be m·ade. For instance. a motormanconductor in Ballarat would receive over $4,700. This payment would be made up of a separat,ion payment of $2,222, ·a long serv-ke leave payment of $1,445, and 'a gratuity payment of $1,080. In another case the State Blectricity Commission has agreed to offer an employee in Bendigo a total paylment of more than $8,900, 'which is made up of a separatiDn payment of $5,245, long service leave payment of $1,860, and a gratuity aHowance of $1,800.

The State Electricity Commission agreed to m'ake a separation pa)11ment at the rate of two weeks' ordinary rate of pay f.or each co'mpleted year of service. In regard to IDng service leave, the Commission has agreed that all employees who have completed three years' service or more will receive a cash payment in lieu of long service leave at the rate of 1.3 weeks of normal pay for each completed year of service. The Commission also agreed to 'make a retiring gratuity paym'ent Qif $45 for each completed year of such service to 'aH employees who have ,cDmpleted three years' adult service. The Commission has given an undertaking that it will try to place as many employees as possible in alternative employment.

It has agreed to' give certain assistance to a married employee who accepts a State Electricity Commission post in another location. It is prepared to pay him a transfer allowance of $50, fares for himself and his family and compensation for any working time lost in travel,ling

to the new IDcatiDn. If he travels ahead of his f.amHy, he will be provided ,w·ith singleaecom'modation free Df charge for up to three months or until he takes up his new res1idence. His rail fare to travel hDme every second week-end will be paid by the State Electricity Com'mission. When he is ready to shift, his rail fare hDme and any working Hme lost in travelling wHI be paid. His furniture removal expenses wiU be paid by the Commission, and he will be granted up to two days paid leave for packing, unpacking and travel. In addition, he will be assisted as far as possible to obtain accommodation at the new location.

The Hon. A. W. KNIGHT.-How does that differ from normal State Electri'city Commission policy?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I am informing the House what the Commission agreed to'. I have a letter from the secretary of the IDcal union, and also a newspaper cutting from the Ballarat CDurier, in which the secretary thanked 'me for what I had done for him and for the union. He states that the State E'lectridty Commisslion's plan for retrenchment appears to be f.airly reasonable, except for one point-that is, that many employees have large amounts of unused accumulated skk leave for which payment should be 'made to the men concerned. This imatter was taken up with the State Electricity Com'mission but to date no finality has been reached. I believe the men concerned have been fairly treated. To the best of my knowledge the Com'm'ission has not approached this matter in that J.ight on other occasions.

A :number of other 'matters are relevant to this mOotion. I suggest that the second head would be: Do the present tramway systems serve the community? Much has been said about the community by Mr. Swinburne. Let us face the facts honesHy and squarely. I suppose that over the eleven years that I have been a representative of the BaUarat area I could

482 Ballarat and [COUNOIL.] Bendigo Tramways.

not have argued against the abandonment of trams solely on this lissue. I challenge any member of this Cha'mber to assert that the present tramway systems serve the cities of Ballarat and Bendigo efficiently. Even Mr. Tripovich, when he visited Ballarat, said that the m'ajority of people did not use the Ballarat trams, which were taken over in 1929 and had barely changed since then. The tramway serves only about 38 percent. of the people; it serves only the inner or buHt-up part of the city. It cannot and never wiN serve the outlying areas where there is a real need ,f.O'r a transport system to serve the public.

In Ballarat, 60 per cent. of the people live more than a quarter of a mile from the tramway system which has cO'st the State of Victoria the sum of $7,000,000 since 1935. These figures have been supplied by the State Electricity Comm,ission; I have no reason to doubt them and they were not disputed at the 'inquiry. This transpO'rt system has cost the people of Victor.ia -more than $500,000 a year, and the fares charged exceed those of the buses. The rea'l tragedy in the city of Ballarat is that because an antiquated tramway system operates in the centre of the city the people have to rely also on bus services, with the result that there is a hotch-potch system of transport. By law, and under the original agreement with the State Electricity Comm'is'slion, no buses are permitted to pick up passengers anywhere near a tra'mline. The 'result is that buses travel for mHes to cater for persons in the HO'us,ing Commission area and then have to travel adjacent to the tramway system without picking up passengers. I doubt whether the trams running round the lake wO'uld earn sufficient to pay the wages O'f the men employed. Ballarat is saddled with a system that cannot cope with the whole of the city. As I said pre~iously, if I had to argue whO'Uy on the hasis whether this tramway system serves the community, J should not get off first base.

The Hon. Murray Byrne.

Another matter which eoncerned my Parliamentary colleagues and myself-we have nothing to hide in this matter-was whether, if the tramway system was abolished, the State Electricity Commission would be prepared to assist persons whO' previously enjoye,d concessional fares. Again, at the inquiry, on oath I put up a case for conces'sional -fare holders. The information supplied to me by the unlion is interesting. It has not been previously stated in this House that certain traveUers on the Ballarat and Bendigo trams enjoy concessional fares similar to those given in the 'metropolitan area. It appeared at the time that if the State Electricity Comm'iss;ion abandoned the trams the people in Ballarat wO'uld lose their rights to concesS'iona'lfares. The union informed me that approximately 40 per cent. of all tram travellers in BaHarat received concessional fares which they would not receive if they traveUed on a private system of transport.

At the inquiry, I m-ade a strong plea that the State Electricity Commission should give considerat.ion to the question of concessional fares. When this public inquiry was held in Ballarat and in Bendigo, the local members made strong representations to the Commission and the Government on behalf of the persons who had enjoyed concessional fares for some ten years. The honorable member for Bendigo in the Legislative Assembly has informed me that there are 5,500 pensioners living in Bendigo, and according to figures that he obtained only some 400 pensioners use the Bendig.o trams. Last week the Minister for Fuel and Power gave an undertaking in the Assembly-it has been mentioned by my colleague, the Minister of Health-that the State Electrioity Commission was prepared to finance for a period of five years concessional fares not only for the pensioners who use the trams at present but for all pensioners in the cities of Ballarat and Bendigo.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.~But not Geelong!


The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.I ask Mr. Tripovioh not to make the position too difficult. That is one of our problems. This, of course, makes Ballarat and Bendigo rather f,avoured places. I have been parochial enough to oppose the abandonment of the tramway system because of the benefits it confers on the people in my area. However, I can no longer use that argument because not only will the travelling public of Ballarat continue to rece'ive such benefits but a much larger group will p,articipate.

Another point raised by Mr. Swinburne which is relevant to the debate is the State Electricity Commission's attitude towards compensating the local municipalities. I submitted this matter to the inquiry and I shall not elaborate on it. One can imagine the amount of work involved in repairing the roadway system and trying to establirsh some alternative system of transport in both cities, whether· it be publ'ic or private. Again, the Minister for Fuel and Power agreed, on behalf of the State Electricity Comm'ission, to make what I regard as very generous payments to the municipalities in my province.

I cannot speak on behalf of the Bendigo municipalities, but the Commission has agreed to pay the Ballarat City Council $384,000 for re-instatement of some 9.1 miles of roadway and $30,000 for bus run-offs-a total of $414.000. The Commission has undertaken to pay the Sebastopol Borough Council $46,000 for reinstatement OIf 1.75 miles of roadway and $15,000 for bus run-offs-a total of $61,000. A payment of $230,000 will be made to the Country Roads Board in the Ballarat area for reinstatement of 5.32 miles of roadway and $15,000 for bus run-offs-a total of $245,000. The total payment in respect of the Ballarat area, therefore will be about $727,000, and the municipalities have informed me that they regard this as ,fair and proper compensation.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVlcH.--Over what period is that money payable?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-It is payable over a· period of eight years. Those are matters that concern me and my colleagues, as local members. They must also concern every honorable member in this House because they concern the people of Victoria. Last night, during the debate on Supply, many honorable members made out good cases, some stronger than others, for the Government to make payments in many i'mportant spheres of Government administration. The Minister of Health mentioned that Mr. Bradbury made a very impassioned plea for a grant of $100,000 to a very worthy and needy institution in which he is interested. There is not a sitting day when some honorable member does not ask for more money for education, water supply or other essential services. Every honorable member would agree that the taxing rights of this State have largely been abolished with the introduction of uniform taxation. Last night, Mr. Todd indicated that the only real taxing rights possessed by the State are through indirect taxation, which is an unfair system of taxation. I agree with the honorable member. There is only one fair way of taxing people, namely, by levying income tax.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I presume the honorable member will relate these remarks to the motion?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I shall do so, Mr. President. The only methods by which the State can raise taxes are unjust and unfair, yet the State is restricted in its right to impose income tax. Of course, the essential services of the community, the things which m·atter the most to the community, are within the jurisdiction of the State. From time to time the Government says to the Opposition, cc You oppose us every time we put on a tax. We would agree with you and would like to spend more money on education. Show us how we can get the money. " The Opposition says to the Government, cc You are wasting money. You


are an extravagant and wasteful Government. If we were able to administer the State we would save large sums of money, and be able to do things that you cannot do." However, I have never heard any honorable member with enough courage to say in this 'House that he believes the State should raIse the land Itax, or any other tax, by 70 per cent. lIhe Government was not even allowed to impose a form of income tax which was termed an education tax.

Let us examine the situation to which the motion refers. There are two tramway systems operating in Ballarat and Bendigo which since 1935 have cost the people of thi,s State $7,000,000. The facts are that in the next three years the tramway systems in these two cities will cost the people of Victoria $5,000,000 a,s well as $500,000 a year. These tramways are costing the people of the State as a whole $10,000 a week. What is more tragic, Mr. President, is that we are forced to admit that these services do not serve the people they are supposed to serve; in fact, they are ha'mpering the provision of a proper system of transport in the two cities concerned. Furthermore, it costs more to travel on trams than on buses.

Another matter that has been raised is the protection of the public and it has been suggested that a swindle has been put over the public. An inquiry was held by the Transport Regulation Board, and any system that i,s to replace the tramways will be controlled by the Board. Speaking from experience, I have found that the Transport Regulation Board, which is an independent Govern'ment body, is a responsible authority which certainly protects the community in my area. Anyone who complains about a bus line or taxidriver receives very prompt action on the part of the Board. I have noticed that the Transport Regulation Board is very vigilant with respect to the conduct of buses and travel generally in my electorate. The men employed by the Board in the city


of Ballarat are very responsible and decent people, and I have every confidence in them. If they are charged with supervising the transport systems of Ballarat and Bendigo in respect of routes, schedules and fares, I am sure the community will be properly protected.

I do not apologize for having been concerned over the years at the knowledge that the State Electricity Commission has always wanted to abandon the tram services. I have opposed this, and I suppose if a number of things had not been granted to our city even up to last week I may have taken a different attitude from my present one. I am sorry that the Commission did not handle the matter differently and that at the time of the inquiry it did not state that it was going to protect pensioners in relation to concession fares. If this point had been handled differently I believe there would not have been any political opposition to the proposal. I know that any opposition ,in my own city has largely arisen because people have been worried about concessional fares to others. Only a limited number of people travel on the trams and an examination of the evidence given at the inquiry shows the m:ain issue has been the rights Oof the travelling public in my city. I trust I have been a,s conscious as anyone of the rights of the people, especially tram patrons, but I cannOot conscientiously expect the State of Victoria to pay $5,000,000 to retain a system of transporta tion in bOoth Ballarat and Bendigo which does not serve the people.


The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Bendigo Province) .--It is Oobvious that the motion mOoved by Sir Percy Byrnes will be agreed to and that the trams will remain in Bendigo and Ballarat. HOowever, during his speech Sir Percy suggested a way out when he said that the Transport Regulation Board might confer with the City of


Bendigo and the Borough of Eaglehawk in an attempt to. evolve a transport system which would suit the people Df those areas and provide a service better than that at p'resent being given by the trams, which have served Bendigo and Eaglehawk for the past 65 years. Initially, they served the district well, but during the past twenty or 30 years the age of the mDtDr car has arrived and the travelling public have changed their habits and now travel by motDr car. This change in mode of travel resulted in a loss by the Bendigo tram system last year Df $242,382 and that, I think, speaks for itself. Patronage has alsO' declined co.nsiderably. In 1937, when the population of the area was 30,000, the trams carried 2,256,948 passengers, whereas in 1967, when the population Df the district was 42,000, the number Df passengers carried was 1,415,314. That is a net loss of 840,000 p'assengers.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Is that not the trend all over the State?

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER.-I agree. UnfDrtunately, the trend is away frDm public transpDrt to. motor cars and whether that should be so is debatable. There is still a place in the community for public transport, but to. satisfy the needs of the people public transpDrt must prDvide a good service. This is what the people of Bendigo really want. As the Minister of Health and Mr. Murray Byrne have stated, the trams are not flexible and they cannDt cater for the develDping areas of Bendigo and Ballarat. At Flora Hill in Bendigo, the Institute of TechnDlogy is partly cDmpleted and a girls' school and the FIDra Hill State SChDDl are in the vicinity. Unfortunately the trams cannot cater for the many children who attend these SChDOls.

If the trams are to be retained, a considerable amount of money must be spent on improvements, first, on the trams and, secondly, Dn the tracks. The trams are DId and antiquated, and it is not a pleasure to ride in them. In addition, much of the

track is worn and must be replaced. This will CDSt a considerable amount of money. In my opinion, any Government would be reluctant to' undertake this work unless it received a guarantee that the trams would be a paying propositiDn in the near future.

In conjunction with Mr. Murray Byrne, Mr. Grimwade, and my colleague from another place, ,Mr. Trethewey, I made representations to the Minister for Fuel and Power concerning the Bendigo. trams, and I was pleased to hear the honorable gentleman announce that if the trams were replaced by buses fare concessiDns wDuld be granted to. pensioners fDr five years.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-When did the Minister give this assurance?

The Hon. F. J. GRAN'rnR.-The Minister made that statement in anDther place.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-When? The Hon. F. J. GRANTER.-Last

week. He infDrmed the members who. made representations to. him befDrehand that he would agree to. this cDncession, and we were happy to' hear it. It has also. been said by my colleague, Mr. Murray Byrne, that SChODl children in the area get fare concessions on the trams and private buses. Private bus DperatDrs in the district have always been sympathetic tDwards school children.

It is no. reflection on the employees Df the tramways system that the trams are to' be abandoned. In my dealings with them I have always found them most courteous and eager to assist passengers. This is also the opiniDn of the travelling public. I was pleased to' learn from a report that has been issued on this subject that the employees are to be well 10O'ked after if retrenchment becomes necessary. I received a telegram from Mr. Clem Frost, the secretary of the Trades Hall Council in Bendigo, in which he asked me to press for alternative Go.vernment employment for these 90 men if they should be retrenched. I fully support

486 -Ballarat and [COUNCIL.] Bendigo Tramways.

this request because most of the employees of the tramways in Bendigo have their own homes or are buying homes in the area. Few of them would want to leave the Bendigo district, and I imagine the same position applies in Ballarat. They have settled in these cities and most of them are getting ,on in years and they would like emplo}1lment in the cities in which they presently reside.

I have seen a letter from Mr. Ben. Walker, one of the private bus operators in Bendigo, to the Transport Regulation B0'ard in which he set out the services he would give to the people of that di,strict if he were permitted to do so. Whilst the service he would provide would n0't be quite up to the time-tables of the trams at the moment, it would be adequate for the pe0'ple who would use it. I am convinced that most of the tram passengers are elderly people or school children. T.he buses that it is proposed to provide for the district are modem, comfortable and excellent to. ride in.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-And privately run.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER.-That is true, but a statement made by Mr. Swinburne proves that bus operators could provide cheaper fares. In his speech, Mr. Swinburne gave an example of two people who boarded a tram and had to pay fares of 35 'cents. It would have been cheaper for them to travel by taxi. In my opinion, the buses could provide a service as good as that given by the trams and the fares would be cheaper. The Minister of Health has already quoted the fares that would apply.

Although the Bendigo trams are obsolete, they have a certain tourist attraction. People who visit Bendigo during the week-end ride on the trams as an attraction. Others have a sentimental attachment to them and would not like to see them disappear. I am certain that the fountain in Bendigo will not look the same when the trams go, but if the city is to progress, and

I think progress should be paramount in our minds, there must be a good urban transport system.

I fully support the advent of buses under the control of the Transport Regulation Board. If a system of privately-owned buses were evolved and controlled by the Board, as they are controlled throughout Victoria to.day in relation to fares and timetables, after a few teething troubles it should work very well. No doubt, initially, there would be some opposition to the new system, but that is always the case.

I suppo~t the submissions made to the House by the Minister of Health and Mr. Byrne. The motion moved by Sir Percy Byrnes will be agreed to, although the Labor Party has not yet declared itself.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-I hope you understand that if a proper blueprint of these offers is submitted to the people and accepted by them some time in the next twelve months, as is proposed by- the State Electricity Commission, we are open to consider a proposition.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER.-I stated initially that I felt Sir Percy Byrnes had offered a reasonable suggestiori when he said that if a conference were called by the Transport Regulation Board, and the residents of the City of Bendigo and the Borough of Eaglehawk were able to present their case and were informed of the type of transport system that would operate, this would perhaps be one way of obtaining a decent transport system for Bendigo and Ballarat.

The Hon. M. A. CLARKE.-Then there would be no need to renew the tracks or the trams.

The Hon. F. J. GRANTER.-That is correct. I am reminded that Sir Percy Byrnes referred to a telegram received from the Bendigo Trades Hall Council intimating that 9,000 unionists supported the rentention of the trams. Many of the unionists from the Bendigo railway workshops

Ballarat and [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Bendigo Tramway~. 487

and the ordnance factory use their own cars, and I doubt whether they are particularly concerned about the trams being retained.

The Hon. G. J. NICOL (Monash Province) .-During the time in which I have been a member of this House, I cannot recall occasions when, first, the report of a committee has been so thoroughly debated as was the report of the Committee of Public Accounts last night, and, secondly, when the House has taken note of and so thoroughly discussed a notice laid on the table of the House. Honorable members should be congratulated, and I hope these debates are the forerunners of m~ny similar ones.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE (Bendigo Province) .-1 was disappointed, upset and dismayed at some of the words used by Sir Percy Byrnes in referring to Bendigo. He said that he passed through Bendigo often, and claimed that there was a lack of development and many words but little, action. He also asserted that Bendigo was almost forgotten. I believe that Sir Percy goes through Bendigo with his eyes closed and does not see the progress and development that has occurred in that city.

The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL.-He is a Country Party man!

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-Of course, he does not want to see this progress. How could he fail to see the Institute of Technology, the tender for the construction of which amounted to approximately $1,500,000? That is a large sum of money, and there has been great development in the field of technology. Moreover, 450 students attend the Teachers' College. There is also a central linen service for the district, and a new psychiatric centre is being erected. The Victorian Inland Meat Authority is established in the city, where there are also sale-yards which the Government subsidized.

When Sir Percy Byrnes passes through Bendigo-I think this applies to every member of the Country Party -he must have his eyes closed; he is

befuddled and all he can see are the sheep and the trees. He should look at the development of Bendigo and leave the representation of Bendigo to the members who are elected for that province, Mr. Granter and myself, who are quite capable of looking after the area.

I agree with Sir Percy Byrnes that the people of Bendigo are entitled to an adequate transport service. They need a fast and efficient service for a developing metropolis, although Sir Percy probably thinks that there are only trees and sheep in the area. The Bendigo Advertis.er of Friday, 20th September, published an editorial which stated-

WHAT IS ADEQUATE SERVICE?

Admittedly it is not easy to define adequate service but no ,trouble at all to define inadequate service. I think that is the key to the problem. No member of this House will disagree that the trams are providing an inadequate service. They cater for only 30 per cent. of the population; the other 70 per cent. live outside the area which can be readily served by the trams. The trams do not service areas such as Kangaroo Flat, the Mcivor-road development, the growing area at White Hills, the Institute of Technology, and several other places outside Bendigo where people need to go, such as the schools and the hospital. People cannot readily use the trams because of the infrequency of the service.

On a single tramway line, it is necessary to provide a loop, and when a tram reaches the loop it stays there until the tram travelling in the opposite direction passes. This might have been all right at the beginning of the century, but it is not good enough now. The city needs a fast, efficient, modern transportation service which is flexible, and is able to cope with developing areas and areas which will develop farther out in the future. An over-all service that will give the residents what they need is required. I see no reason why Bendigo should be restricted by being stuck with the trams.


Sir Percy Byrnes stated that the local people should be consulted. When the Transport Regulation Board conducted its inquiry in Bendigo it invited the people to give evidence. Is that not consulting the people and asking them what they want? Sir Percy Byrnes also suggested that there should be a detailed plan, but at the moment that is not practicable. The Transpor.t Regulation Board's recommendations are before honorable members. As Mr. Granter said, the Board will be in control of the situation and, in the interests of the public, it will determine the frequency of the service, the types of buses to be used, the standards and the fares. This is a fair and reasonable way to determine what is going

. to happen in the future, but the first step is to get rid of the trams.

If the tramway system is abandoned, certain points must be considered. Mr. Byrne has said that the State Electricity Commission will look after the employees, which is only right, and I have no comment to make on that score. Again, the Commission will remove the tram tracks and repair the roads. The third and most important point is the one which was referred to by Mr. Granter-the concessions for which we have fought for the pensioners and the school children.

Because the motion does not mention the replacement of the trams, if it is carried Bendigo will be put back into the era of the early years of this century. The terms of the motion are not designed to provide a better transportation system, or to assist in the development and progress of Bendigo. If the motion is agreed to the clock will be turned back on the legitimate progress and development that members on the Government side of the Chamber earnestly seek and strive for in Bendigo. For those reasons, I reject the motion in its present form.

In the interests of the 70 per cent. of the population which cannot use the trams, and in the interests of

Tolle Hon. F. S. Grimwade.

progress and development of an area that I feel will go ahead to greater and better things, the motion must be rejected.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH (Doutta Galla Province) .-At the outset, I indicate that the Labor Party will support the motion moved by Sir Percy Byrnes. I am a little disappointed that I did not have the opportunity of moving an identical motion. I congratulate the Leader of the Country Party, and his Deputy, Mr. Swinburne, on their contributions to the debate. What they said came closer to the factual history of the tramway systems in Ballarat and Bendigo than other statements that have been made.

Honorable members on the Government benches have been forced to take part in the debate; there are many reluctant heroes here tonight. If the Government had not suddenly awakened, a vote could have been taken after the motion had been moved by the Leader of the Country Party and formally seconded by his Deputy, without one word being heard from the Government.

What has been said in another place and repeated here by honorable members on the Government benches is not fact but fantasy. Under the provisions of section 74 of the State Electricity Commission Act 1958, the Commission served notice on the Government in March, 1962, that it intended to abandon the tramway systems in Bendigo and Ballarat. Cabinet did not accept the Commission's proposal and the Commission does not know why. I quote from evidence given by Kynaston William Lathrop Murray, an officer of the State Electricity Commission of Victoria, holding the position of Acting Assistant General Manager (Administration) and residing at 8 Wallaceavenue, Toorak, to a committee of inquiry sitting at Bendigo on 28th May, 1968. While outlining the history of


the tramway service there and giving reasons why the Commission intended to abandon it he said-

The next date of importance in this connexion is 30th March, 1962, when the first abandonment notice was served on the Minister. I came, at the invitation of the Bendigo council, to Bendigo on .the 19th March, 1962 to meet them in the afternoon. He then indicated that he went to Ballara t, and so on. He was crossexamined by Mr. O'Shea, the secretary of the tramways union-who is alleged to support the abandonment of the tramway system. Mr. O'Shea asked Mr. Murray-

How does that statement square up with your latest statement that in 1962 when the Commission served notice of abandonment, or notice of intention to abandon Bendigo and Ballarat, the Government refused to consider it? Mr. Murray replied-

As to how it squares up, I do not know. I am not in the confidence of Cabinet. In 1929, the State Electricity Commission was a recently formed body whose function was to provide electric power throughout the whole of Victoria. It was natural that the Commission should take over the provincial power systems in Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong. The transport systems in those cities were operated by the organizations which provided electric power. They did not operate at a loss, and they were acquired by the State Electricity Commission. It was necessary for the tramway services in Bendigo and Ballarat to be built up because, although some people had horses and gigs in those days, the cities had developed to such an extent that public transport was essential. It was never intended that the transport system should pay for itself. The organization which set up the system was prepared to bear some loss if one was incurred.

Act No. 3845 was enacted on the 30th December, 1929, to allow the State Electricity Commission to do this. The preamble stated that it was-

An Act to provide for the Construction of Tramways and the Management and Operation of Tramway Undertakings by the State Electricity Commission of Victoria

in certain areas and to authorise the Commission to borrow Moneys on Overdraft for a certain purpose and to amend the State Electricity Commission Act 1928. The fact that the growth of the regional centres was foreseen is evident from section 11 of the legislation. The State Electricity Commission became the transport authority in those areas. It was given power to borrow money to develop the transport areas, either by tram, trolley buses or other omnibuses, in terms of what the Commission deemed to be efficient. The section stated, inter alia-

Notwithstanding anything in any Act(a) in addition to the powers conferred

on the Commission by or under the Act the Commission as part of any of its tramway undertakings may subject to this Act and with the consent of the Governor in Council operate motor omnibuses electric railless trolley omnibuses or other omnibuses within any of the areas mentioned in the First Schedule on such routes and subject to such conditions as the Governor in Council approves. The First Schedule to that Act provided that the Commission would conduct transport systems within the municipal areas of Ballarat, Sebastopol, Bendigo, and Eaglehawk. Those are the same areas provided for in the Third Schedule to the present Act. The Commission's actions were, quite properly, subject to approval by the Governor in Council. The Treasury had some responsibility if the transport systems either made or lost money. Paragraph (b) of section 11 of that Act provided-except with the consent of the Commission a licensing authority for any urban district under Part II. of the Motor Omnibus Act 1928 shall not grant a licence under that Part authorising any motor omnibus to operate in any area served by any tramway of the Commission; In other words, the State Electricity Commission had a monopoly right to develop transport systems within Bendigo and Ballarat. The Commission was not required to pay registration fees for its motor omnibuses. I turn to Part VI. of the present State Electricity Commission Act, No. 6377, which refers to tramways and omnibuses. The powers which were given to the Commission in 1929 are


endorsed in the current legislation. I think the Premier has mesmerized the members of his party. Although he was apparently unable to persuade them in 1962 that the tramway systems should be abandoned, he now has them believing that, if the motion before the House is carried, Bendigo and Ballarat must have trams forever.

The State Electricity Commission Act makes provision for the Commission to operate tramways or omnibuses within certain areas which are referred to in the Third Schedule. The areas are those mentioned in the 1929 Act. Section 60 provides that, except with the consent of the Commission, no order shall be granted under the Tramways Act authorizing the construction of any tramway by any .municipality within any of the areas mentioned in the Third Schedule. Therefore, the Commission had a monopoly of the transport rights to construct tramways. Section 67 gives the Com~ission authority to operate motor omnibuses, railless trolley omnibuses or other omnibuses as part of the tramways undertaking. The provisions 'in the two Acts are almost identical. Honorable members who represent the areas of Ballarat and Bendigo might not have known this history. Section 67 of the present Act provides, inter alia-

Notwithstanding anything in any Part(a) in addition to the powers conferred

on the Commission by or under this Part the Commission as part of any of its tramway undertakings may subject to this Part and with the consent of the Governor in Council operate motor omnibuses electric railless ,trolley omnibuses or other omnibuses within any of the areas mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act on such routes and subject to such conditions as the Governor in Council approves. Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the Commission from using motor omnibuses electric railless trolley omnibuses or other omnibuses for the purpose of carrying passengers during the alteration repair renewal or construction of any tramway or portion thereof;

The Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-Would you repeat the last sentence of that provision?

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-It merely gives the Commission power to operate omnibuses during the alteration, repair, renewal or construction of any tramway or portion thereof.

The Hon. G. W. THoM.-And that is the only time it has power to operate them.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-I have never heard such ridiculous interjections as those repeatedly made by Mr. Thorn in this Houseand Mr. Murray Byrne agrees with me. Section 68 of the Act provides-

(1) All omnibus services carried on by the Commission under this Part shall be deemed to form part of the tramway undertakings of the Commission.

(2) All tramway undertakings of the Commission shall be merged in and form part of the works and undertakings of the Commission under this Act and the construction management operation maintenance and renewal thereof shall be included in the purp9se of this Act. When Mr. Murray was crossexamined on this question, all he said was that this was not the Commission's interpretation of it. Section 69 of the Act gives further powers to the Commission as to tramways. It authorizes the Commission to take for the conveyance of passengers tolls, fares and charges, to permit passengers to transfer from one route to another and travel on circular tickets, and to m'ake provision for workmen's tram fares and so on. Section 74 provides for the abandonment of the tramways and the procedures thereof-the very exercise that the Government is going through at this juncture. If the Governmen t of the day in 1962 said to the Com'mission that it had power to provide these provincial cities with public transport and that it also had power if it saw fit to replace the trams with buses, ~he Commission could have taken that action. It then had power under section 74 to abandon the tramway service which would have been replaced.


I should now like to reply to certain statements of the Premier in anDther place and of Government members in this House. The Government is unable to say that the Commission has done anything in regard to planning transport in these areas; that it has tried to modernize the service and give these regional areas an adequate transport system. The State Electricity Commission has never attempted to replace tr-ams with buses as a modern development, despite the power it holds. If that had occurred the Government might have reasons for acting as it now proposes. Unfortunately, the tramway systems of Bendigo and Ballarat have simply been allowed to run down through sheer neglect.

Mr. Byrne mentioned the money that wa:s spent in developing the tram-way system between 1934 and 1937 . .I wonder if he knows where the mOoney came from.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-Some of it was unemployment relief money.

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOVICH.-That is so. At page 24 of the evidence, when referring to the investments between 1934 and 1937, 'Mr. Murray is reported as having said-

The Government provided $100,000 and $208,000 was provided from the Unemployment Relief Fund and $40,000 by the Commission. The amount of $40,000 is all that the Commission has put into the Bendigo and Ballarat tram·way systems since taking them over in 1929 when they were a paying proposition. The evidence tendered by Mr. Murray in regard to costs was interesting. The trade union officials were astounded when they found that the maintenance costs were twice the labour cost in the operation of the trams. Trade union representatives said that there must be -something wrong with the information that had been supplied and Mr. Murray was questioned concerning it. Mr. Murray supplied details concerning the total expenditure and, for the sake- of the record,

I shall recite them to the House. In addressing Mr. Murray, Mr. O'Shea said-

The point I want to clear up if I may put it to the Board may simplify ,this. Could you explain to me the difference between the expenditure on labour of an amount of $167,293 and the general maintenance expenditure of running a tramway service of $350,340?

Mr. O"Shea stressed that the general maintenance expenditure was almost double the labour costs. Mr. Murray was good enough to supply evidence concerning the source of this money, and I invite honorable members to examine the evidence on this aspect. Mr. Murray stated-

In the operation field of expenditure there is $9,700 in supervision and engineering.

I ask honorable members to take note of Mr. Murray's reference to supervision.

It almost doubles the labour costs. That includes a portion of the tramway superintendent's and workshop staff and there is a bit of engineering that goes into every tramway undertaking, and so on. Electricity was $16,824 and that is at a much lower price than we buy it at our homes and a lower price than industry buys electricity. Inspectors and clerks, $27,724. Motor-men and conductors, $117,724. Cleaning and oiling of trams, $9,078. Cleaning and sanding track, $4,618. There is general expenditure on miscellaneous items of $2,353. The total of those is $188,084.

With great respect to the accountants of the State Electricity Commission, I do not think they missed anything. When dealing with the question of maintenance, Mr. Murray stated-

Again, we find the supervision and engineering item is at $3,846. The permanent way is $35,593; ,that is in relation to the replacing of sleepers and doing all the things they do to a permanent way, maintaining the road 9 inches on each side of the rail, and so on.

I stress that maintenance work on the road 9 inches on each side of the rails represents a contribution to municipal councils.

The PRESIDENT . (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-I am wondering whether all this detail is associated with the motion before the Chair.

Ballarat and [COUNCIL.] Bendigo Tramways.

The Hon. J. M. TRI:pOVICH . ........jIt is related to the motion, Mr. President, because I am showing that the losses have been greatly magnified.

The PRESTDENT.--Could Mr. Tripovich explain the connexion between the figures he is quoting and the Inotion before the Chair?

The Hon. J. M. TRIPOViIiOH.-The motion relates to the proposed abandonment of the tram·s at Bendigo and Ballarat because of the great losses allegedly taking place. J am trying to prove that those losses have been magnified. Mr. Murray's evidence proceeded-

Overhead line equipment, $7,856. Rollingstock, $43,415. That is attending to trams and d.oing all the things necessary such as re-winding motors and re-flanging and grinding the wheels. General equipment, $1,594, and that adds up to $92,427. This is bearing a tramways system as it has never been done before. Under the general item we have miscellaneous supplies and expenses, $3,300. Sick leave and holiday pay, $21,223. Pay-roll tax and workers compensation, $10,099. There is another small item relating to materials amounting to $599, and we come to a total for general expenses of $34,444. There are some additions to make to that. There is local administration and expenditure. Local expenditure on administration, $12,720. Again, I emphasize Mr. Murray's continued references to administration. Obviously, the costs have been loaded in this case. Mr. Murray's evidence continued-

A head office of a unit always has to spread some part of its expenditure. Head office administration, $22,665. If you add that up-I have left some very small items out-you will arrive at $350,000.

In other words, while it was being allowed to run to a standstill, the tramway service was required to pay a contribution towards the administration of the head office of the State Electricity Commission. It has been claimed by Government members that if this motion is defeated, it will mean the retention of trams forever in Bendigo and Ballarat, but that is not correct. My pa~ty wishes to see transport facilities in the country on an equal basis with those in the city. There will come a day when Ballarat,

Bendigo and Geelong will have populations not of 100,000, but of 300,000 or 400,000 people. There will also 'come a ti.me w.hen it will be necessary to set up a transport authority to control transport in these cities. It is interesting to note that not one fixed wheel passenger transport system in the world is running at a profit today.

In connexion with the inquiry of the Transport Regulation Board, the Government, which is urging Parliament to ·accept the report of the State Electricity Commission without question, did not accept without question the Board's findings following its inquiry into the transport system of Geelong. The Board stated-

Having regard to the experience gained in the Geelong urban district where trams were replaced by privately operated bus services in 1956-

Of course, the Board was not silly enough to recommend a public transport system as it did for Geelong. where its recommendation was brushed aside and a private transport service was provided. That was the experience it was referring to.

When a private enterprise transport system can provide an adequate service to the community, there is no reason why ilt should be socialized. Of course, a private transport system must operate at a profit, or it will go out of business. It can reduce its fares only w.hen there is a corresponding reduction in the service it provides. Perhaps I could illustrate my point by referring to the timetable which operates with respect to private enterprise bus services at Bendigo. The bus service which is provided fro.m Bendigo to Hillside after 5.45 p.m. Mondays to Fridays inclusive consists of only two trips, one at 7.45 p.m. and the other at 11 p.m. From Bendigo to Bradford, after 5.45 p.m. Mondays to Fridays inclusive, there are also only two buses running, and again they are scheduled to run at 7.45 p.m. and 11 p.m. From Bendigo to Kangaroo Flat after 5.45 p.m. on week-days and on Saturdays after 5.30 p.m. a s·imilar service is provided. On Sundays on the Bendigo


to Kangaroo Flat service only three buses are scheduled to run, the trip times being 2.15 p.m., 3.5 p.m. and 5.50 p.m.

The Hon. F. S. GRIMWADE.-How many trams run at that time?

The Hon. J. M. TRIIIPOV;rCH.-I dO' not know because I have only the bus schedules. So far as Geelong is concerned, I venture to' suggest that many more trams used to run after 8 p.m. than there are buses now running. The Transport Regulation Board finds it most difficult-I can understand its position-when evidence is submitted to' it to the effect that, after a given time, the passenger service on a particular route does not warrant a one-hourly, two-hourly or three-hourly service. A service which caters for only two bus trips after 5.45 p.m. is not good enough for some regional areas, and a Government which is interested in decentralization would not be satisfied with a transport service of this type. If, like private enterprise transport operators, the Railway Department could withdraw all services that did not operate at a profit, there would be no metropolitan rail service today.

Mr. Murray Byrne, Mr. Grimwade and Mr. Granter referred to the redundancy payments and other compensation from the State Electricity Commission. That is nothing new; they are based on the Gas and Fuel Redundancy Agreement which was negotiated by the unions in 1967. It provided for pro rata long service leave at rostered rates after three years' service, a retirement gratuity of one week's pay for each year of service, and a severance payment of two weeks' pay at rostered rates in respect of each year's service.

The subject of pensioner concessions has caused some dismay in Government circles. No doubt the Minister approached the State Electricity Commission and said, "We are most embarrassed about the pensioners; Mr. Murray Byrne is so concerned that unless something is done he will vote against the Government on this

rna tter " . No doubt the Minister directed the Commission to subsidize the private bus owners for a period of five years, after which it could be expected that the matter would be forgotten. There is no provision in the principal Act for a concession to be granted to pensioners. If the Government is honest, it will grant the same privilege to the pensioners at Geelong. Unfortunately, in 1955 this Government seized power by spurious means. A Labor Administration would have established a public transportation system in Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo, and all pensioners would have been granted the same concessions.

Private enterprise is the concern of this Government, but is a private enterprise bus system to be established at Ballarat and Bendigo? Naturally, the policy of the Transport Regulation Board is based on the fact that if a bus operator is to give service he must have a monopoly. Consequently, it must be a private monopoly, and that is not private enterprise. If the trams at Ballarat and Bendigo are to be replaced by a bus service that is not given a monopoly, the Government will be in serious trouble. Under a real private enterprise system, a bus operator could apply for a licence in competition with other operators, and this would encourage a better service at less cost, but that will not apply.

Bus operators in the fringe areas of the metropolis have no trouble in obtaining a sympathetic hearing from the Transport Regula tion Board if they wish to discontinue a service during certain hours or on certain days-perhaps from 24th December to 10th January each year or after 8 p.m. The operator may submit to the Board that it is not profitable to carry only 30 passengers after a certain time. The Board examines the service and considers the return to the operator in the peak period and the number of passengers he carries at other times. If there are insufficient passengers offering,


the service does not run. The people at Bendigo and Ballarat will have to face up to this situation.

Some Tullamarine people, !:ike many persons in other areas, find lit difficult to make ends meet, to pay the rent and to raise their families. They do not own motor cars, and if they want to travel from Tullamarine at certain times I can only tell them to take taxis. This is the type of situation that will be inflicted on the people of Ballarat and Bendigo. I hope the Government will tell the State Electricity Commission that since 1929 it has had the authority to plan and operate a combined bus and tram service or a bus service.

The Government should establish a regional transport authority to plan the transport services of Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong, and consider the development of transport in other areas as the necessity arises. The people in the country areas would then have transport systems operating under the same conditions as those running in the heart of Melbourne. If this is not done the Government will have considerable difficulty in attracting sufficient people to the country areas, because they cannot all live around a decentralized industry. People will not live in Ballarat East if the factory in which they are employed is at Ballarat West if there is no transport available. The system of having no competition within half a mile of a tra'mline should and could have been scrapped years ago, and transport co-ordinated. The power to do this has resided with the State ElectriCity Commission since 1929.

Ba.llarat is not unique in having antique trams; half of the rolling-stock running in Melbourne today is over 50 years old. A transport planning authority could aid decentralization and ensure that people living in regional areas would not be penalized. It could ensure that there was no differentiation between the country and metropolitan areas. If

Tohe Hon. J. M. Tripovich.

Sir Percy Byrnes's motion is carried, it will be an instruction to the GOlvernment to do something better for the cities of Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong, and to start now.

The House divided on Sir Percy Byrnes's motion (the Hon. R. W. Garrett in the chair)-

Ayes 16 Noes 14

Majority for the motion 2

Mr. Bradbury Sir Percy Byrnes Mr. Cathie Mr. Clarke Mr. Galbally Mr. Hewson Mr. Knight Mr. McDonald Mr. Mitchell

Mr. Byrne Mr. Campbell Mr. Chandler Mr. Dickie Mr. Fry Mr. Gleeson Mr. Hamilton Mr. Houghton

Mr. Mansell Mr. May

AYES.

Mr. O'Connell Mr. Swinburne Mr. Todd Mr. Tripovich Mr. Walton.

Tellers: Mr. Elliot Mr. Merrifield.

NOES.

Mr. Hunt Mr. Nicol Mr. Thorn Mr. Thompson.

Tellers: Mr. Granter Mr. Grimwade.

PAIRS.

\ Mr. Hamer Mr. Gross.

BROILER CHICKEN INDUSTRY (UNIFORM AGREEMENTS) BILL The Hon. A. J. HUNT (South

Eastern Province) moved for 'leave to bring in a Bill to improve stability in the broiler chicken industry and foT' other purposes.

The motion was ,agreed t'O. The Bill was brought in and read

a first time.

EAVESDROPPING DEVICES BILL. The debate (adjourned from Sep

tember 11) on the -motion of the Hon. J. W. Galbally (Melbourne North Province) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Ballaarat Province).-This Bill is unique. When brought in by Mr. Galbally, it

Eavesdropping [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Devices Bill. 495

was the first measure of ;its nature to be introduced into any Parliament in this country. I suppose most honorable members have little or no knowledge of the subject-matter contained in the Bin, or of theconsequences to be expected frO'm the proposed legislation. By a process of trial and error over the years the provisions of the measure will be perfected by amendments to meet ex,ist-ing conditions.

At the outset I am happy to say that the Government wholeheartedly supports legislation Q1f this kind, for to some degree it w.nl protect the individual's right to privacy. In 1967 the Law Department first concerned itself 'with problems associated with the use of bugging and other eavesdropping devices. Since that year, at meetings of Attorneys-General of the States and the CO'mmonwealth, proposed 'legislation deaHng with this matter has been dis'Oussed. Many conferences have taken place between the law Departments of the States and the Com'monwealth AttorneyGeneral's Department. Indeed, as honorable members are aware, after the introduction of this Bill the Victorian Attorney-General introduced a Bill dealing with the same subjectm·atter in another place. The Government O'f this State thus became the first Government to introduce a Bill of this kind into an AustraHan Parliament.

The Government's view is that it is desirable that there should be uniformity in legislaUon which ,may be enacted by the vartio'Us States and by the Com·monwealth concerning the use of eavesdropping devices. I need not remind the members of this House that in the modern world the use of telephones for conversations with people in other States and in other countries has grown to such an extent that it allmost equa'ls their use for local -calls, and the only way ,in which the use O'f devices to eavesdrop on people's telephone conversations

can be controlled is to have uniform legislation throughout Australia. If there ate conflicting laws of the States and the Commonwealth, the legislation will be largely ineffective. There are many problems associated with the use of electronic devices, and uniform legislation lis required to overcome them. It is important to obtain the co-operation of the other States and the Commonwealth in this matter. The AttO'rney-General has informed me that copies 'Of his Bill have been sent to the other Attorneys-General.

It might be asked, "What is Mr. Gwlbally's purpose in int-roducing his Bill, now that the Government has introduced a sim'ilar measure?". In this connexion I am happy to quote what Mr. Ga,lbally has had to say. A report published in the Herald of 28th August, 1968, stated-

Mr. Galbally denied today that he was hostile that the Government would bring in a Bill .as well.

"My Bill was drafted in March .and it is ready," he said, "This is just one of those extraordinary coincidences we sometimes find in politics. I welcome the Government's interest.

"It is an excellent thing .that the Parliament will now have a choice of two Bills.

"Members will be invited to debate my Bill not as a political exercise but as a means of preserving a basic human rightthe right to be left alone free of secret listeners" .

I commend Mr. Galbally for his attitude in this matter. The AttorneyGeneral has stated lin another place that he will invite 'aliI members of Parliament to' contribute to the debate on the Bill that he has introduced so that he ·m-ight have the benefit of their advice. Mr. Ga'lbaUy des:ires his own Bill and the Attorney-General's Bill to be debated. ]if the cours·e suggested by those members is followed, it is hoped that legislation that lis as nearly perfect as possible will result.

Many issues are of importance in a discussion of this subject. The first question ·members should ask themselves :is : Do we, 'as members of Parliament, agree that legis,lation of this type showd be proposed, because it will ·create a new offence, and after

496 Eavesdropping [COUNCIL.] Devices Bill.

all there is a host of ,rules and regulations today and the rights of indiv,iduals are being rest'f1icted more every day?

Much has been written O'n this subject, 'and I desire to quote what has been sa1d by the Professor of Law, School of Law, at the University of New York, who is an authority on this subject. In the July, 1967, issue of a publication entitled Current History, in an article under the heading of "Wiretapping and Eavesdropping: Pros and Cons ", he wrote----

Once upon a time a man could retire into his house free from prying eyes and ears, with distance between himself and his neighbours. That day is gone. Parabolic microphones, wiretaps, bugs, hovering cameras, apartment house living-all these have combined to make it almost impossible for a man to get away from a determined spy or eavesdropper. The right of privacy, cherished by free men and protected by the common law and by our Constitution, now required special legislation and extraordinary scientific devices for its preservation.

The author was there referring to the American com'mon law and Constitution. I shall have 'Something to say about our common law later.

Invasions of privacy re~uJ.t from the pressures of urban life and of advancing technology, from concern ahout a growing crime problem and from fear of foreign enemies. The issue thus posed is the perennial problem of the free society: how to balance liberty against security, how to achieve the optimal amount of each without excessively sacrificing the other. The answer depends not only on faots, but also on values, some people cherish privacy more than others while some people think our police are already handcuffed excessively.

I think that is fundamental to our apnroach to this subject. At page 33, he stated-

The right to privacy is indeed the most comprehensive of all rights. A society which cherishes liberty and human digni,ty cannot do without it: a society which seeks to suppress freedom cannot tolerate it.

If it is agreed that there should be legislation covering this subjectmatter, the next question is whether there is a need for the legislation today. I do nO't know very much about eavesdropping and bugging devirces, but it is interesting to note

that a question was asked 'Of the Federal Attorney-General in the Commonwealth Par.Hament as to how many applications had been 'made to the Attorney-General over a period of eleven years for the right to tap telephones in Australia. I was surprised to learn that over that :period only 183 applications had been made by all the police forces of Australia, the Commonwealth police, the security service and, I presume, by the Customs authorities.

There does not appear to be considerable evidence that people are indulging in the use of these devices. It is also fair to say that while we hear much of James Bond gimmicks and gadgets it is difficult to get much evidence about the sales of these objects in Melbourne. However, Mr. Galbally produced evidence whkh shows that it is pO'ss'ible for people in Victoria and elsewhere in Australia to obtain devices which certainly threaten the privacy of individuals. To substantiate this statement, I produce a copy of the Australian dated Tuesday, 16th July, 1968. One section of the newspaper deals with some of these most intetesting and novel electrical gadgets, which are illustrated in the newspaper. Although a number of these gadgets have been mentioned by 'Mr. Galbal}ly, others have not. These devices are available if peO'ple wish to purchase or use them. The newspaper contains a photograph of what is called a voke-activated tape recorder. The article states-

This special miniaturized tape recorder can be placed in any room-even concealed in a hollow book, desk drawer, under a sofa, anywhere. Without supervision, the device will turn itself on at the slightest sound-and record everything it hears. When there is no sound, the machine remains inactive-but waiting. Under the heading" Custom Jewellery Microphones ", it states-

Miniaturized microphone transmitters are currently being produced in various shapes and forms. The seemingly innocent cuff link, lapel pin or wrist watch that may be feeding your corporation's hard-earned research secrets to patent-free pirates in Hong Kong can also be used to hear and


keep permanent recordings of meetings, confidential dictation, business discussions, depositions, verbal reports of accidents or events.

The next heading is "Fountain Pen Transmitter" and the article states-

This unique fountain pen does everything but write. Its ultra sensitive microphone, hidden in a dummy case, absolutely defies detection. Whether worn in a shirt pocket or casually placed on a conference table, its completely transistorized components, powered by batteries, pick up every syllable. A "conversation piece" in more than one way.

Finally, there is a photograph of what is called the " Window ' Ear' " which is deiscribed as follows:-

Now even the windows have ears, with this near-invisible listener. So minute that it actually fits neatly between the frame and the glass itself. Here is about the last place in the world any business executive would think of checking. Its highly sensitive pinhead microphone transmits every word spoken to an ever-waiting recorder at another location.

The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-What is the cost of these gadgets?

The 'Hon. MURRiA Y BY:RNE.Some of them can be bought quite cheaply, for ,about $4; they are not dear. What I have said substantiates the rather interesting and thr.illing material that Mr. Galbally mentioned when explaining his Hill. It -was not until I had the opportunity of checking that I realized the correctness Qif Mr. Galbally's statements. In other countries eavesdropping and bugging devices have become a real social problem. Although I cannot produce evidence to show that it has yet become a matter of great concern in our community, there is no question. tha t some people 'are using these devices and that they can be pur-chased in AustI'1alia.

What is being done in other parts of the world to attempt to cope with this social problem? I shall try to :summarize the situation and to inform the House how attempts have· been made to cope with this relatively new social problem, the invasion of the right of personal privacy. In the American Constitution, in what is

Session 1968.-19

known as the Fourth Amendment, some protection is afforded to the community. It states-

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, suppo~ted by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place .to be searched, and the person or things to be seized.

That p'rovision has been used on a number of oocasion!s by the courts to give some protection to the community. However, the following American States have 'introduced legislation 'regulating the use of eavesdropping devkes:-A:laska, California, Georgia, II lin oils, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, and South Dakota. Switzerland, Germany, France and Holland have taken some steps in this direction, as have British Columbia, West Germany, Denm'ark, and the United Kingdom where a private member's Bill was considered in 1967. International organizations, including the International Commission of Jurists, have urged that some over--all legislation should be adopted in relation to this subject.

'I wish briefly to e~am.jne the existing protection that people mayor may not have against this alleged social problem. Can the existing law provide 'any p-rotection to the community? The common law has been handed do:wn to us over some 500 years. It has been enunciated by the 'courts, and decisions o:f courts and juries form part of the common law. It is interesting to note that most of the rights and freedoms of the individual in our com'munity stem from the com,mon law whkh is a wonderful heritage that we have. The law that is passed by Parliament, or most CYf it, restricts the rights and privileges of the community.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Nowhere more so than in this city of Melbourne.

498 Eavesdropping [COUNCn...) Devices Bill.

The Hon. MUR~AY BYRNE.-The Bill which is now being considered will restrict the rights Df the individual to a degree, but such a restriction is desirable from time to time for the community's good. It is necessary for us to emphasize that the majority of the rights of the individual have come to us from the common law and nDt frDm Acts Df Parliament. Blackstone, the great author on the common law, felt that the common law and the criminal law did give some protection to individuals in respect of eavesdropping, and he said that some action could be taken to protect the community in this field. Unfortunately, over the years various decisions-for instance Rex v: London Sessions, 1948 1 King's Bench, and even some Victorian decisions-indicate that the courts today feel that there is little protection for the community under common law or criminal law to cope with this problem. The only protection a person has is to take act:ion fO'r breach of the peace, according to a number of Victorian cases. This is totally out of 'character with the problem and ~ecause of the secrecy that is involved In eavesdropping and bugging it is really of no s'ignificance.

The next question is: What are the rights Df the individual in regard to private property? II shall nO't weary the House by quoting a number Df cases that may touch Dn the question of the rights of private property Dr whether any action would lie 'ag~inst a person whO' bugged a house. It IS true that a person who had been aff~cted could, technically, take an actIOn for trespass. If a person put one of these gadgets o.n the window of a private property, I suppose the owner of the prDperty could take action fDr trespass. However, this would be of little benefit because one could sue only for damage, and it would be difficult to prove the case if someone merely attached a gadget to a window and did no other damage. If a person used an eavesdropping tape-recorder 'in a private home or at a pz;ivate meeting it would be difficult,

and possibly embarrassing, to take proceedings against him. If one of these gadgets were attached to a motor car or something of that nature, there would be no recourse open to the owner.

Summing up, I must confess that at present little protection is given to 'the public by the ordinary law of the land in relation to eavesdropping and bugging devices. I now tum to 'Mr. Galbally's Bill. I commend the honorable member for the way in which he explained this measure. As he said, its purpose is to try to cope with the problem and to give members an opportunity Df debating this subject. Although I intend to refer to a number of provisions in Mr. Galbally's Bill, I hope I shall not be too critical, although I am sure he will be just as critical of the Government's Bill. This measure deals with a subje'ct-matter that has not previously been dealt with in any Parliament in Australia. I repeat that no one knows what the over-all consequences will be. I do not know how to solve the problem of defining a private conversation. I am merely commenting on the difficulty. The definition in the Bill is-

"Pr!vate co?versat~on" means any conversation carned on m such circumstances as may reasonably indicate that the parties to such conversation desire it to be confined to such parties but excludes a conversation made in a public gathering or in any proc~eding open ~o the. public or in any other CIrcumstance m WhIch the parties to the conversation may reasonably expect that the conversation may be overheard or recorded.

Possibly that exclusion is too wide. For instance, if a person was at the Flemington racecourse, or in a public place, having a private conversationa lot of private conversations take place in public places, such as football matches, and so on-these gadgets could be used to record the conversa tion for purposes of blackmail, or whatever action it was desired to take against the persons involved in the discussion.


The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Would not the words "as may reasonably indicate that the parties to such conversation desire it to be confined to such parties" cover that?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-The only trouble I see is that two people may be conversing in the members' enclosure at the Victoria Racing Club's racecourse, a public place.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-About what is going to win the next race?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-No. Suppose they are talking personally and confidentially-nothing to do with racing.

The Hon. SAMUEL MERRIFI'ELD.But would you not admit that they would be running some risk in discussing private business in a public place apart from the suggestion of "bugging "?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-We accept the principle that the privacy of individuals should not be invaded with a bugging device.

The Hon. D. G. ELLIOT.-Is that not the protection sought?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I do not suggest that it should cover the field in a wider fashion.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am indebted to you for your thoughtful consideration, but I think in the circumstances you have outlined it would be reasonable to expect that persons might be overheard in a public place.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-If Mr. Galbally were in Queen's Hall talking to me and there was no one in the vicinity or within 100 yards of us, I should not like to feel that our conversation could be recorded in detail.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It depends on the intention of the person recording it, does it not?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I agree. That is what I am worrying about.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am not saying that the measure is perfect. The subject is difficult.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.Clause 4, an important provision, reads-

Prohibition on use of an eavesdropping device except in pursuance of a warrant.

A person shall not-(a) use any eavesdropping device to over

hear record monitor or listen to any part of a private conversation or words spoken to or by any person in private conversation; or

(b) divulge or publish the substance or meaning of any private conversation overheard recorded monitored or listened to by the use of any eavesdropping. device. Of course, it is known in business practices that doctors, psychiatrists and even lawyers use tape recorders. The recorders may not be deliberately hidden, but tape recorders are taken to some conferences and it is presumed that the people present are agreeable to their use. I should not like to prevent what is, after all, normal business practice. For instance, in the case of interviews and questioning by police the use of tape recorders is widely encouraged, but again we must ensure that this clause of the Bill does not interfere with normal police practices.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Is it not usual for a lawyer or doctor who uses a tape-recorder to say to a person, "Do you mind if I tnke the conversation down on a recorder?".

The Hon. MURRAY RiRNE.When a group of people attend a conference each person is not asked individually whether or not he desires his comments to be recorded. I raise the point because these practices are common, and I know Mr. Galbally does not intend to interfere with them.

Clause 5 deals with warrants authorizing the use of recording devices. Mr. Galbally spent some time explaining the provisions, whose scope is fairly wide. A warrant may be issued when a Judge of the Supreme Court or the County Court is satisfied, upon the application of


the Chief Commissioner of Police or any person authorized by the Chief Commissioner of Police, that-

(a) a crime has been or is about to be committed; and

(b) the use of an eavesdropping device may assist to prevent the commission of the crime or ,assist the police investigation relating to the crime-

The clause continues -the Judge may by warrant under his

hand authorize the use of an eavesdropping device by any member of the police force.

(2) Upon the making of such application the applicant shall declare-

(a) the eavesdropping device to be used; (b) the place or places where it is to be

used; (c) the person or persons whose private

conversation is to be overheard recorded monitored or listened to;

Again, ,I do n:ot think it is intended that legislation should be so framed that, in the course of detection of crim.e and the protection of the community, lawful authority should be restricted in the use of these devices. The problem of protecting the individual and the well being of the community is summed up in this clause.

There are some immediate problems. From my discussions with police officers I gather that they envisage using these devices to curtail the activities of known criminals. For example, the New South Wales police may have advised the Victoria Police that some criminals have travelled to Ballarat and are staying at the Park Motel, and are probably there for an unlawful purpose. It is highly desirable that, if possible, the police in Ballarat should find out why these people are there and what they intend dOing, particularly if some crime is about to be committed. Under the provisions of this Bill it would be difficult for the Chief Commissioner of Police to proceed. He may have received the information only an hour or so before it is considered that something should be done. It would be difficult for the Chi.ef Commissioner to go through the required procedure, involving the preparation of affidavits which in


themselves create certain problems, and so on. The use of these recording machines on behalf of the communjty is not a bad thing, but there are a number of problems, and I understand that the Government's Bill seeks to ove~come this problem.

I think Mr. Galbally would agree with me, and I am sure other honorable members would also, that in certain circumstances it would be difficult to adopt the procedure set out in the Bill. This procedure would require time and might prevent a policeman, particularly a responsible policeman, who receives information tha t a crime is likely to be committed by persons in the area who are known criminals, from getting permission to use this device expeditiously.

Another matter on which I wish to comment is contained in clause 7, which reads-

Any evidence of a private conversation obtained in contravention of this Aot shall not be admissible in any suit trial hearing inquiry proceedings or investigation.

My immediate reaction is one of tremendous sympathy to that clause. This provision is basically contained in American law, but not in every State. I have great admiration for the endeavours of the Supreme Court and 'High Court in the United States of America to protect the individual. However, in Australia and England, even though a person obtains evidence improperly-he may have trespassed or broken into a house to obtain evidence that is relevant to a crime, or even divorce or other civil proceedings-there is a Privy Council decision which directs that, irrespective of the fact the information has been obtained improperly, if it is relevant to the particular hearing it is admissible. In Victoria we are at present bound by the Privy Council and the courts of England. I understand that the Government's Bill does not include this prohibition, and it may be undesirable to include this clause in the Bill. I have not made up my mind on this matter, but it is my duty to bring it t'O the attention of the House.


In summing up, I compliment Mr. Galbally for the obvious amount of work he has carried out on a subject that is quite novel. I know he has received assistance from many people, including the Law Department and His Honour Sir John Barry, who has written courageously on this subject. It is a wonderful thing that in our society ,there are a few people-not many---.in high places who feel they should speak out on these things. Perhaps some people think they should not, but I agree that they should. I am grateful that Mr. Galbally has approached this matter in a non-political way and, as he said in a statement published in the Herald on the 28th August last, it is an excellent thing that Parlia-ment now has the choice of two Bills. He went on to say-

Members will be invited to debate my Bill not as a political exercise but as a means of preserving a basic human rightthe right to be left alone free of secret listeners.

That is the atmosphere in which the Bill has been introduced, and I hope it will be debated in this House in the same manner. I hope also that the Government's Bill, when it is introduced, will receive similar treatment.

The Hon. S. E. GLEEsoN.-Has Mr. Byrne given any thought to whether that somewhat archaic expression " eavesdropping" could be replaced by another phrase?

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE.-I am not the initiator of this phrase. It certainly has a jarring note.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-It is a very English Anglo-Saxon word for which I have some regard, but it is a bit long-winded.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province) .-1 move-

That the debate be now adjourned. I should like to ensure that Mr. GaIbally's rights are protected, and if they can be so protected I should

like the debate to be adjourned for a week. I do not want anything to happen that will prevent this Bill from being debated because it contains provis:ions which I favour, although I should like to see ·other provisions contained lin it am·ended slightly.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-It is not often that I have to concede this, but I am placed in a position of acute' embarrassment. I agreed with the· Leader of the House and Mr. Murray Byrne that the House would not meet' last Wednesday and that consideration of my measure would be deferred until tonight to enable lit to be got r~d of lin this House~if ,I may use another Anglo-Saxon expression-before an,,: other place went on with its delibera,..·, tions on the Government's Bill. I feel· that if I w'ere to agree to this reasonable request by the Leader of the Country Party I might be embarrassed: . or accused of 'want of good faith.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-We would never accuse Mr. Galbally of that.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.·-I do not want to be accused of it, and in the circumstances I beg Sir Percy Byrnes to proceed with the debate on the measure tonight, otherwise I might not be able to hold to the undertaking that I have given to the Government.

The Hon. MURRAY BYRNE (Ballaarat Province) .-To save Mr. Galbally that embarrassment, I can say that I know that he would not be breaking faith with me or with the Leader of the House if he agreed to the reasonable request of Sir Percy Byrnes for an adjournment of the debate. As I understood the undertaking, his Bill would be debated but not necessarily dealt with. I certainly


do not want anything done in relation to Mr. Galbally's Bill which will prevent discussion of the Government's Bill. Mr. Galbally has said publicly that this House would have the opportunity of discussing his Bill and the Government's measure to the fullest extent. Difficulties could arise if Mr. Galbally's Bill was eventually agreed to. I agree with what Mr. Galbally has said and with his attitude. I think ~t would be deplorable if this House was not given the opportunity of discussing both Bills fully. I do not think the request made by Sir Percy Byrnes will interfere with Mr. Galbally's wishes or his undertaking.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province) .-By leave, I should like a ruling in regard to this measure, Mr. Pres,ident. There is a somewhat similar Bill before another place, and I understand that if this House passes Mr. Galbally's Bill at the second-reading stage, the other Bill cannot be debated during this sessi.on.

The PRESIDENT (the Hon. R. W. Garrett).-That :is if the Bills are substantially similar in content.

Sir PERCY BYRNES.-Mr. Murray Byrne has said that he wants Mr. Galbally's Bill discussed but he does not want a vote taken on it. I would prefer the debate to be adjourned for a week so that I may examine the Government's measure more closely. However, I do not want Mr. Galbally to be put in the position whereby his Bill cannot be fully debated.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) (By leave). -This is not an unusual situation in relation to private members' Bills introduced by me. I have had some previous experience in this regard, but I am not resentful of it. In fact,

I want to push on with my Abolition of Capital P.unishment Bill because I fear that now the Government may get in before me. I welcome the Government's interest in my Bill, but it is rather disappointing when the House has discussed a private member's Bill to find that in the final result it is railroaded by the Government. I want to avoid that because Bills go through this House under the pressure of numbers. I do not want to embarrass Sir Percy Byrnes, but this Bill has been Circulated for a month. If members of the Country Party do not like it, let them say so, but let the House consider this Bill and vote on it. I will accept the decision of the House. Let us discuss the matter calmly. We do not know what is in the Government's Bill. It may be a marvellous measure, but I am a little apprehensive about it. If Sir Percy Byrnes is taken by surprise tonight, I do not want to put him at a disadvantage. However, I do not want to be met with the situation next week of the second-reading speech being made on the Government's Bill and its being passed without my measure being given proper consideration.

Sir PERCY BYRNES (NorthWestern Province) .-By leave, I ask Mr. Galbally to agree to my motion. My reason for moving it is that the Country Party has a committee on which our sole lawyer member is a representative. We have been discussing this subject and there are certain matters on which we have not fully made up our minds. However, we hope to solve these problems within a few days. A legallyqualified man may be able to grasp the various aspects of this measure much -more quickly than the average

Locr;zl Government (Abolition [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] of Plural Voting) Bill. 503

person such as myself, but we are endeavouring to protect the average person. I want more information from our party committee so that a final decision can be made on the Bill.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Melbourne North Province) .-By leave, I accept the sincerity of the remarks made by Sir Percy Byrnes and his desire to enter into the debate in the full knowledge of the measure. I am prepared to agree to the adjournment of the debate, but it is -implicit in 'my agreement that Sir Percy will be ready to proceed next week.

The motion for the adjournment of the debate was agreed to, and it was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, October 9.

REVOCATION AND EXCISION OF CROWN RESERVATIONS BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of Education), for the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

KEW LANDS (GRANT AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. L. H. S. Thompson (Minister of Education), for the Hon. V. O. DICKIE (Minister of Health), was read a first time.

AGRICULTURAL EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister of Agriculture), was read a first time.

PROPERTY LAW (AIMENDMENT) BILL.

This Bill was received from the Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) , for the Hon. R. J. HAMER (Minister for Local Government), was read a first time.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ABOLITION OF PLURAL VOTING) BILL. The Hon. J. M. WALTON (Mel

bourne North Province) .-1 move-That this Bill be now read a second time.

This is the third occasion on which I have introduced a Bill to abolish plural voting in municipal elections. On the first occasion, last year, it was embodied in a Bill that would, at the same time, have introduced adult franchise. The second occasion was earlier this year when, after hearing Mr. Thom speak, the Country Party sought an adjournment and the later prorogation of Parliament wiped the measure from the Notice Paper.

It therefore becomes necessary for me to go through the form of having it again placed on the Notice Paper and making a second-reading speech. It is proper that .J should include >in this measure any new thoughts that have occurred to me since I last introduced a Bill in relation to ·this subject. The Minister for Local Government recently travelled overseas, and I shall be interested to learn whether he studied this proposition. During the second-reading debate on the measure I sponsored earlier this year, Mr. Thom clearly indicated that the Liberal Party had appointed a special party committee to study this subject. Although he may not be a member of the committee, the Minister for Local Government would have close liaison with it and take an interest in its deliberation. It is possible that on his overseas visit the honorable gentleman investigated the position.

504 Lo.cal Government (Abolition [COUNCIL.] of Plural Voting) Bill.

If he did so, he would have found that all countries throughout the world have long since abolished the plural ,system of voting. The States of New South Wales and Queensland have also abolished plural voting as an oldfashioned concept.

Since the last time a Bill to abolish plural voting was considered, the Local Government Act has been

'amended to give the spouse of a ratepayer the right to vote at elections. It has been drawn to my attention that in cases where the property is entitled, for example, only to three votes, which have to be shared between the two spouses, the non-voting spouse .is reluctant to take away from the ratepayer the full number of

, votes that he had in the past. That is one reaction to 'the amendment of the Local Government Act which was passed earlier this year, and which again mitigates against the continuation of plural voting.

The 1968 amendment of the Local Government Act also increased the differences which arise under the plural voting system, because some properties that in the past had received three votes became entitled to perhaps six votes, and -in fact the ratepayer and the spouse each received three votes. In the first case which I mentioned, the three votes had to: be shared between the ratepayer and the spouse, and in the second case, where the property was more valuable, they each were entitled to three votes. 'This is a further argument for the abolition of plural voting. All inqui~ies into v~ting at muni'C'ipal elections have recommended the abolition of plural voting, 'and constitutional writers have recommended its abolition.

Since the last occasion on which a , Bil~ to abolish this system was considered by this House, one of the arms

Th~? Hon.' J. M. Walton.

of the press, radio station 3A W, issued the following editorial dated 12th August, 1968:-

It's time the plural voting system in local government elections was abolished.

Under the system, the number of votes a ratepayer is entitled to varies according to the value of his property.

Thus a man with a modest home might have only one vote while his more prosperous neighbour might have three.

The argument most frequently advanced in defence of this system is that the man who pays the piper has the right to call the tune.

This might have been a reasonable view a hundred years ago when only those who owned property were allowed to have a voice in government.

But it should have gone by the board along with the abolition of property qualification when full adult franchise was introduced.

Only in local government does this outmoded concept of property and privilege linger on.

The plural voting system is not democratic. It holds that all ratepayers are equal; but some are more equal than others.

Whilst the editorial is not accurate because it refers to: the introduction of full adult franchise, it contains the message that the station is not in favour of the continuation of plural voting, which is the view of the Labor Party.

The concept that the person who pays the piper should call the tune has gone by the board because councils no longer receive revenue only from ratepayers' contributions per medium of the rates levied on their properties. Municipal councils receive grants frOom the State 'and Federal Governments, and revenue from fines and 'fees.

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-You should use that argument in relation to adult franchise.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-Previously, I introduced a Bill to bring about adult franchise, but the Country Party would not support it. If this support had been received, electoral justice would have been done in the municipal field.

Local Government (Abolition [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] of Plural Voting) Bill. 505

The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-I would rather vote for adult franchise than for this Bill.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I can only equate Mr. Swinburne's remarks to the editorial statement that we are going back 100 years. If that is the philosophy of the Country Party, the honorable member is welcome to it. I believe we are moving with the times. Young people, particularly university students, are voicing protests-sometimes they don't know against what-particularly against the injustice that certain people in the community should have privileges.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Have you ever heard of a university demonstration against plural voting?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I said that they do not always know what they are protesting against, but it is this sort of thing that makes them unhappy. When they enter into constitutional studies in their university education, they learn of the inequalities that have been perpetrated. Perhaps they have not got back to modest things such as plural voting, but I am sure that these are the sorts of matters that upset students.

If the Government could be progressive in its thoughts and accede to the proposition that this method of voting had outgrown its usefulness, it would agree that action should be taken to correct the situation. From the remarks of Mr. Thom earlier this year, I believe the Liberal Party must have some concern because the party was considering the matter. This at least raises the hopes of the Opposition for the future.

As municipalities no longer rely on rates for their revenue, it is proper that other persons whO' contribute to municipal funds through Commonwealth and State taxation, which is channelled back into the municipal field, ought to have a say in the governing of their municipalities. A person may be a member of a school committee, may take a great interest in his local progress association, and

do all the things that a good citizen should do, but because he does not own or is not the occupier of a property, he has no say in the running of the municipality.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Virtually only boys do not get a vote now.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I explained that when I introduced the Bill last session to bring in adult franchise, but this Bill relates to plural voting, and the position that one person or one property is entitled to one vote whilst another persO'n or another property is entitled to three votes. This depends only on the value of a property which a person happens to occupy or own.

The Hon. I. R. CATHIE.-The Government would not hold a referendum on the subject.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-The Government would hold a referendum only of ratepayers, who would take the view that the Government was attempting to take away their rights. This Government should' not live in an aura of 100 or 200 years ago ; it should be a progressive so-called, Liberal Government. '

This Bill is important to municipalities because its passage would save them a lot of work in the preparation of voters' rolls and the conduct of elections. At present, every voter's roll has to be prepared on the basis of the names and addresses of the owner or occupiers, and the valuation of the property, and a calculation has to be made to decide how many votes shall apply to the property.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The Government is giving the municipalities enough'to do.

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-The Government might not have much to do, but municipalities undertake a great deal of work and they carry many burdens which are foisted on them by the Government. By one

506. . .. Avis Rent-A-Car [ASSEMBL Y.] System Pty. Ltd.

stroke of the pen, the Government could lift from the municipalities one burden with which they have been saddled for hundreds of years. This is almost a non-political argument. One of the main reasons why the Labor Party wants to get rid of plural voting is that almost everyone is now entitled to three votes in a municipal election. The average number of votes to which an elector is entitled is 2.5 and, in Coburg, the average is as high as 2.8 votes. The difference between 2.5 Or 2.8 votes and three votes is negligible, so it is only sensible to adopt the simple system of one vote for each person. This will do away with all the calculations of how many votes a person is entitled to, and the additional work it entails. It will also do away with the confusion the system causes. Often, an elderly person who is given three ballot-papers votes on one and puts the others in the dustbin. Sometimes, a person who is entitled to two votes gives one to each of two candidates.

There is also a great deal of confusion in the public mind between municipal council elections and elections for the Legislative Council and other Parliamentary elections. If there were one roll for all of these elections, people would not present themselves to vote, believing that they Imust, when they were not on the roll; nor would they beconrfused when presented with up to three ballot-papers.

The Hon. A. J. HUNT.-Do you think that scrutineers fill in any of the blank voting papers?

The Hon. J. M. WALTON.-I would say, without doubt, that if that sort of thing happened, it would be exceptional. Certainly, no honorable member on this side of the House would tolerate such an action for one moment. All that the Bill does is to amend the Local Government Act where that Act refers to plural voting. Of course, to achieve th~s, it must amend a number of sections. The Bill does nothing but provide for one vote per person.

. I shall not weary the House by dealing with each clause of the Bill. I hope the relevant committee of the Liberal Party has considered the principles it contains. .1 know ,that if its members had 'bothered to obtain the views of town derks, shire secretaries, and the Eke, they would have been told that it would assist lin the running of munioipalities by the saving of unnecessary 'costs. Indeed, if they were honest, they would agree that the Bill represents a move towards good democratic procedures.

On the motion of the Hon. G. W. THOM (South-Western Province), the debate was adjourned.

It was ordered that the debate be adjourned until Wednesday, October 9.

ADJOURNMENT. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER

(Minister of Agriculture) .-By leave, I move-

That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next.


The House adjourned at 10.20 p.m., until Tuesday, October 8.

ilrgt.alntinr A!i!irmbly. Wednesday, October 2, 1968.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie) took the chair at 4.5 p.m., and read the prayer.

AVIS RENT-A-CAR SYSTEM PTY. LTD.

AGREEMENT WITH RAILWAY DEPARTMENT.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Premier-

What contracts have been entered into between the Government and Avis Rent-ACar System Pty. Ltd.?

Pensioners. [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] State Finance. 50?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer), Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) .-The answer is-

So far as I am aware, there are no contracts between Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd. and the Government, but I am informed that, in 1961, the Victorian Railways Commissioners and Avis entered into an agreement which apparently is still operating for cars to be available for rental at Spencer-street and Mildura railway stations.

MEMBERSHIP OF FIRM.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Attorney-General-

What is the number of members of Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd.?


Avis Rent-A-Car System Pty. Ltd. is incorporated in New South Wales and no particulars of its members are registered in this State. However, I understand that the number of members is three.

PENSIONERS. FARE CONCESSIONS IN BALLARAT AND

BENDIGO.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton asked the Treasurer-

What plans (if any) the Government has for fare concessions to pensioners in the Ballarat and Bendigo areas, giving details of any proposed concessivns, including, in respect of any proposed subsidies-( a) the cost; and (b) the source thereof?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary).-The answer is-

The Government has no plans to provide fare concessions to pensioners but the State Electricity Commission has advised that, if the tramway services in Ballarat and Bendigo are abandoned, it would be prepared, as part of the cushioning effect of the transition from tramways to buses, to make a regular payment through the Transport Regulation Board for a period of .five·years so that pensioner concessions can continue. The actual form of the concession

would have to be arranged by the Transport Regulation Board in consultation with the bus operators in the two cities.

It is expected that the cost of the subsidy would be in the order of $40,000 per annum.

STATE FINANCE. OVERSEAS LOANS: INTEREST:

REDEMPTION.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Treasurer-

1. How much is paid annually in interest to overseas bondholders by the State of Victoria?

2. Whether these bonds can be redeemed; if so, when; if not, why?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) .-The answers are-

1. The amount paid in 1967-68 was $4,242,676.

2. Yes. The loans concerned can be redeemed by the Commonwealth Government, on behalf of the State, at maturity date or as otherwise specified by the terms and conditions set out in the prospectus relating to each particular loan.

LAND TAX OFFICE. GEELONG VALUATIONS.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton asked the Treasurer-

Whether he will give consideration to establishing a land tax office in the Geelong area, rather than sending metropolitan valuers to the area?

For Sir HENRY BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer), Sir Arthur Rylah (Chief Secretary) .-The answer is-

As municipal valuations will be used for land tax purposes as soon as they are returned by the municipalities concerned, the Government considers that there is no point, in present circumstances, in locating land tax valuers in the Geelong area.

SOCIAL WELFARE BRANCH. SUPERVISION OF PRIVATE ADOPTION

AGENCIES.

Mr. WILKES (North cote) asked the Chief Secretary-

Whether arrangements are made for tlie regular supervision by the Social Welfare Branch of the work of private adoption agencies, to ensure the maintenance of adequate standards of adoption. practice? .

S08 So~ial Welfare [ASSEMBLY.] Branch.

For Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) .-The answer is-

There is· no supervision of the work of private adoption agencies by the Social Welfare Branch.

Applications for the approval of agencies, and consideration of the same, are governed by sections 18' and 19 of the Adoption of Children Act 1964, and section 20 gives the Chief Secretary power to revoke or suspend

. any approval.

The Department maintains contact with approved agencies via quarterly conferences with princip'al officers.

FOSTER PARENTS FOR WARDS: AsSISTANCE TO VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATIONS.

Mr. ,WILKES (Northcote) asked the Chief Secretary-

1. Why the help of the Superintendent's and Matrons' Association, was requested by the Social Welfare Branch in obtaining foster parents for wards?

2. Whether he will indicate the type of assistance given to the Branch by this ,association? •

, , 3. How many' voluntary organizations are involved in . ibis assistance, as distinct from the number of organiz'ations represented in the associat~Qn?,

For Sir, ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary)" Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) .-The answers are-

1. The Superintendents' and Matrons' Association offered its help and suggested a pilot project on a co-ope'rative basis.

2. The plan envisaged nominated organizations seeking . foster parents and recommending the suitable' ones, primarily

,for children', urider • their care, making the placement and providing a follow-up service. All this activity' was to be carried out in close co-operation with the Foster Care and Adoption Section of the Family Welfare Division. '

3. Up to the present, one organization of the six proposed in the scheme, has been able to assist. It has made twelve placements in a two-year period and accepts responsibility for supervising up to five children at anyone time.

A second organization has recently signified its desire to assist and a third will do so' when another social worker is appointed. The remaining three organizations have not yet been able to participate.

nle Social Welfare Branch is ready and willing to co-operate with any agency prepared to assist its foster care programme.

INQUIRY BY INTER-DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE. .


1. Whether he will make available to the House. the findings of the inter-departmental commIttee set up to examine the immediate and future financial needs of the Social Welfare Br~ch in regard to staffing, ~cc<?m~odatIon, and operating costs of mstItutIons?

2. Whether he intends to allow this committee to continue its, deliberations and investigations? .

For Sir ARTHUR RYLAH(Chief Secretary), Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney General) .-The answers are-

1. No.

2. Yes.

FAMILY WELFARE ADVISORY COUNCIL.

MEMBERSHIP: SECRETARY: FUNCTIONS: RECOMMENDATIONS.

Mr. WILKES (Northcote)· asked the Chief Secretary-

1. What are the names and qualifications of t~e. Famil¥ Welfare Advisory Council, specIfymg WhICh members are nominees of the Children's Welfare Association, and the term each member has served on the council?

2. Which officer of the Family Welfare Division of the Social Welfare Branch acts as secretary to the advisory council, as laid down in sub-section (6) of section 10 of the Children's Welfare Act 1958?

3. When the Family Welfare Advisory Council carries out its adviso,ry functions as laid down in sub-section (10) of section 10 of the Children's Welfare Act 1958, and whether he necessarily acts on its recommendations?

4. What have been the recommendations of this council since its inception in 1958, specifying which recommendations have been acted on and which have not?

For Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) .-Lengthy answers have been supplied to these questions, and I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without being read.

Leave was grant-ed, and the answers were as follows:-

MEMBERS OF THE FAMILY WELFARE ADVISORY COUNCIL (18TH JULY, 1968.)

Surname and Christian Names. Honours, Degrees, &C. Other Official Positions. Address for Notices, &C.

Molloy, Neale Gordon (Rev.), B.A., Th. L. .. Director, St. John's Homes 18 Balwyn-road, Canterbury, Period of Service with F.W.A.C., for Boys and Girls. 3126. Phone, 839461. 7 years Chairman, Church of

England Boys Society. Deputy Warden, Diocesan Mission to Streets and Lanes

Perkins, Eric Gerard (Rev. Fr.), Dip. Soc. Stud. .. Director of Catholic Family 406 Albert-street, East Mel-Period of service with F.W.A.C., Welfare bourne, 3002. Phone 7 years 6621422

Sharpe, Elizabeth (Miss), Vice D. .. ., .. President, Victorian Council 197 Drummond-street, Carl-Scott, 26th April, 1966. Period of Social Service of Victoria. ton, 3053. Phone, 348293 of Service with F.W.A.C., 2!- Executive Director, The years. Nominee of Victorian Citizens Welfare Service Council of Social Service

Stevenson, Charles Frederick " .. .. Territorial Social Secretary, 69 Bourke-street, Melbourne, (Lieut.-Col.), Vice Dr. Morey, Mens Social Service De- 3000. Phone, 634851 4th March, 1968. Period of partment, Salvation Army Service with F.W.A.C., 6 months

Wilmot, Alice Elizabeth (Dr.), B.Sc., Dip. Diet., M.B., Director of Maternal Infant 278 Queen-street, Melbourne, Period of Service with F.W.A.C., B.S., D.C.H., and Pre-school Welfare 3000. Phone, 678411 7 years M.P.H., F.A.C.M.A.

Loxton, Caryl (Mrs.), Vice Dame Commissioner of Oaths President Brookville Kinder- 40 Armadale-street, Arma-Mary Herring, 3rd October, 1962 and Affidavits garten. Life Member, School dale, 3143 Period of Service with F.W.A.C., for Deaf Children. Sec. 6 years Armadale Branch Red

Cross

Angliss, E. May (Miss), Period of M.B.E. .. " President, Children's Welfare 10 Findon-avenue, North Service with F.W.A.C., 7 years. Association of Victoria Caulfield, 3161. Phone, Nominee of Children's Welfare 502276 Association

. Private Address.

22 Balwyn-road, Canterbury, 3126. Phone, 835878.

26 Gurner-street, St . Kilda, 3182. Phone, 944119

Flat 15, 246 Albert-street, East Melbourne. 3002

21 Athelstan-road, Camber-well, 3124. Phone, 294062

37 Airlie-street, South Yarra, 3141. Phone, 261531

40 Armadale-street, Armadale, 3143. Phone, 502990

10 Findon-avenue, North Caulfield, 3161. Phone, 502276

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MEMBERS OF TIlE FAMILY WELFARE ADVISORY CoUNCIL (18TH JULY, 1968.)-continued.

Surname and Christian Names.

Colliver, Alfred Spencer (Mr.), Chairman. Period of Service with F.W.A.C., 7 years. Nominee of Victorian Council of Social Service

Galvin, Annie Edith (Mrs.), Period of Service with F.W.A.C., 7 years

Janicke, John C. (Mr.), Vice Col. Darlow, 18th July, 1967. Period of Service with F.W.A.C., 1 year

King, Ethleen Bridges (Mrs.). Period of Service with F.W.A.C., 7 years

Mathieson, James Keith Wilson (Rev. Dr.). Period of Service with F.W.A.C., 7 years. Nominee of Children's Welfare Association

Honours, Degrees, &C.

B.A., Dip. Ed., Dip. Soc. Stud., M.S.W.

S.M., O.B.E.

B.A., Dip. Ed.

C.B.E., B.A., LLB .. ,

M.A., B.D., P.H.D.

B.Ed.,

Other Official Positions.

Director, Presbyterian Social Services

President, Council for Children's Aid. President, 'Overton' Committee. President, Bendigo Creche. President, Old People's Welfare Society

Secretary / Superintendent, Melbourne Family Care Organization. Member Executive, Children's Welfare Association

Chairman Victorian Branch of the Australian Preschool Association. Member Latrobe University Council

Director, Methodist Department of Child Care. Superintendent of Orana

Address for Notices, &c.

167 Collins-street, Melbourne, 3000. Phone, 635131

23 Calvin-street, Bendigo, 3550. Phone, Bendigo 33335

Box 3, Glen Waverley, 3150. Phone, 560-0122

11 Landen-place, Toorak, 3142. Phone, 204096

87 Elgar-road, Burwood, 3125. Phone, 2886111

Private Address.

646 Glenferrie-road, Hawthorn, 3122. Phone, 812374

23 Calvin-street, 3550. Phone, 33335

Bendigo, Bendigo

Box 3, Glen Waverley, 3150. Phone, 5608448

11 Landen-place, Toorak, 3142. Phone, 204096

87 Elgar-road, Burwood, 3125. Phone, 2886111

Vl -o

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Family Welfare [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Advisory Council. 511

2. Mr. John Dynan.

3. The council reports annually to the Chief Secretary-

(a) pursuant to section 29 of the . Children's Welfare Act concerning rates of payment for wards; and

(b) concerning its general activities.

It also makes recommendations from time to time on other matters under its attention and referred to it by the Chief Secretary. All such recommendations receive consideration but not all are necessarily acted on.

4. It would be difficult to list all the recommendations the council has made, but most have been related to the levels of payment made for wards placed in approved children's homes and foster care. These have received due consideration in the preparation of the Budget, but it has not always been possible for the Treasurer to make sufficient funds available to meet the recommendations made.

PROVISION OF ADDITIONAL

PROFESSIONAL STAFF.


Whether the Budget provides for extra professional staff to be added to the establishment of the various sections of the Family Welfare Division of the Social Welfare Branch; if so, what staff additions are proposed to each section of the Division?

For Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary) , Mr. G. O. Reid (AttomeyGeneral) .-The answer is-

Yes; the Budget provides for the following additional professional positions:-

Family Counselling. Social Worker (Male or Female), Class

S.W.3-one office.

Social Worker (Male or Female), Class S.W.2-four offices.

Children's Homes. Social Worker (Male or Female), Class

S.W.3-one office.

Social Worker (Male or Female), Class S.W.2-four offices.

General Administration. Social Worker (Male or Female), Class

S.W.5-0ne office.

"Turana" Reception Centre . Social Worker (Male or Female), Class

S.W.2-one office.

Suburban and Regional Offices. Social Worker (Male or Female), Class

S.W.3, Hamilton--one office.

Social Worker (Male or Female), Class S.W.3, Baimsdale--one office.

Social Worker (Male or Female), Class S.W.2, Broadmeadows-one office.

Social Worker (Male or Female), Class S.W.2, Ringwood--one office.

POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AVONDALE HEIGHTS POLICE STATION:

STAFF DETAILS.


What is the rank and length of service, respectively, of each policeman stationed at the Avondale Heights police station?

For Sir ARTHUR RYLAH (Chief Secretary), Mr. G. O. Reid (AttorneyGeneral) .-The answer is-

Rank.

Sergeant Gibbs

Senior Constable Bumpstead ..

First Constable Smellie

First Constable Staples

Constable Gill

Constable McDonald

Constable Florence

Years of Service.

19

12

12

7 (On temporary

duty)

3

3

3 (National

service training)

512 Maribyrnong [ASSEMBLY.] : River.

COMPANIES ACT. DRAFT AMENDMENTS: REPORT OF

COMMITTEE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Attorney-General-

What progress has been made towards agreeing to proposals for uniform draft amendments to the Companies Acts to protect the investing public?


I understand that the report of the committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Eggleston, appointed at the instance of the Standing Committee of AttorneysGeneral to consider and report upon desirable amendments of the uniform Companies Act, will be ready in the near future. I expect copies of the report will be available for discussion at the meeting of the standing committee to be held at the end of this month.

MARIBYRNONG RIVER.

POLLUTION OF WATER: COMPLAINTS.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local GovernDlent-

If he will ascertain and inform the House-

l. How many instances of pollution in the Maribyrnong river have been reported, what number or prosecutions have been made, against whom, and how many were successful?

2. How many instances of pollution have been alleged against the Commonwealth Ordnance Factory, what number were investigated, how many prosecutions were recorded, and what total number and amount of fines were imposed?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The Minister for Local Government has provided the following answer:-

1 and 2. One complaint has been reported to the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works this year and two complaints were reported to the Fisheries and Wildlife

Branch, but it appears that all three complaints related to pollution occurring during the last week in March. Following investigations, no prosecutions were launched.

MUNICIPALITIES FOREST ROADS IMPROVEMENT FUND.

PAYMENTS INTO FUND: GRANTS TO

MUNICIPALITIES.

Mr~ B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) asked the Minister of Public Works-

1. What amounts have been paid into and remained unspent in the Municipalities Forest Roads Improvement Fund in each of the last five years?

2. What grants have been made from the fund in the last two years, giving the name of the municipality and the grant ratio in each case?

3. What applications are currently being considered?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answers consist of a lengthy and detailed statistical return. I suggest that, with the leave of the House, they be incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


1. Details relating to the Municipalities Forest Roads Improvement Fund are:-

Unspent at Receipts Remained Financial Beginning During Unspent at

Year. of Finan- Financial Expenditure. E:J.d of cial Year. Year. Financial

Year.

$ $ $ $

1963-64 28,810 .. 18,l30 10,680

1964-65 10,680 50,000 4,996 55,684

1965-66 55,684 .. 30,410 25,274

1966-67 25,274 .. 22,348 2,926

1967-68 2,926 50,000 Cr. 10 52,936

In addition, a further $50,000 will be paid into the fund during the 1968-69 financial year.

Mrmicipalities Forest Roads [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Improvement Fund. 513

2. Grants made by the Country Roads Board in 1967-68 and 1968-69 financial years for expenditure from the Municipalities Forest Roads Improvement Fund-

I Forest Roads Council's

Municipality. Road. Improve- Contri-ment bution. Fund.

$ $ Alexandra .. .. .. Mount Margaret .. .. 1,200 300 Avon .. .. .. Stockdale-Glenaladale · . .. 800 200 Benalla .. · . .. .. Ethells-Iane .. .. . . 2,000 500 Benalla .. · . .. .. Pine nursery access " · . 320 80 Bet Bet .. .. .. Logans .. · . .. no 180 Bright .. .. .. " Farrelleys-Iane .. .. .. 100 25 Bright .. .. .. Farley-lane .. · . .. 544 136 Broadford " " · . Spur .. .. · . 4,000 1,000 Bungaree · . .. .. Bungaree-Barkstead .. .. 2,400 600 Daylesford and Glenlyon .. Italian hill · . .. 3,200 800 Glenelg .. .. · . Digby-Strathdownie .. .. 2,000 500 Healesville .. · . .. Spraggs .. · . .. 8,000 2,000 Healesville " .. .. Lady Talbot-drive " · . 1,600 400 Kara Kara .. .. .. Rostron-Stuart Hil " .. 4,800 1,200 Kyneton .. .. .. Lagoon .. " .. 1,920 480 Mansfield · . " " Blue range .. .. 4,800 1,200 Metcalfe .. .. .. Barker's Creek-Spencer Gully . . 680 170 Mildura .. .. .. Lindsay island .. .. . . 480 120 Narracan .. .. .. Telbit .. .. .. · . 6,400 1,600 Narracan .. .. .. Tyers-Walhalla .. .. . . 7,200 1,800 Nathalia .. .. .. Moira lakes .. .. . . 4,320 1,080 Newstead · . · . · . Captains Gully .. .. · . 800 200 Omeo .. .. · . .. Beloka .. " " .. 1,600 400 Omeo .. " .. . . Benambra-Limestone .. .. 4,800 1,200 Orbost .. " " .. Combienbar . . · . . . 4,000 1,000 Orbost .. .. " .. Errinundra .. " · . 2,400 600 Orbost .. .. · . " Errinundra .. . . 88 22 Orbost .. .. .. . . Orbost-Bendoc .. .. · . 3,200 800 Orbost .. .. .. . . Tamboon .. .. " 6,400 1,600 Otway

" .. " Kaanglang " · . .. 3,200 800

Portland .. .. " Crow lands .. " · . 1,368 342 Portland .. " .. Mount Clay .. " 3,200 800 Ripon

" " .. Beaufort-Elmhurst " .. 28 7

Seymour " " .. Tallarook-Back Forest " · . 144 36

Strathfieldsaye " " .. Pathen's-lane " · . .. 400 100

Tambo .. .. " .. Buchan-Ensay · . .. 888 222 Winchelsea .. " .. Bambra-Boonah-Parkers .. 8,000 2,000 Yea .. .. " .. Limestone

" · . .. 2,120 530

I 100,120 25,030

3. Nil.

TRAFFIC COMMISSION. Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public

Works) .-The Minister for Local Government has provided the following answers:-

OVER-PASS SCHOOL CROSSINGS IN

GEELONG.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton asked the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local Government-

1. How many requests have been made by municipal councils in the Geelong area for over-pass school crossings?

2. Where the proposed crossings are required?

3. When it is expected such over-passes will be constructed?

1. Two requests have been received by the Country Roads Board.

2. These requests were for the construction of over-pass crossings at:-

(i) Geelong City-Bellarine Highway (Ormond-road) Humble/Lochstreet intersection-Tate-street School and St. Margaret's School.

(ii) Cities of Geelong West and Newtown -Hamilton Highway (Aberdeenstreet)-Newtown State School.

3. It is not possible to state when these crossings will be constructed.

514 Incinerators [ASSEMBLY.] at Seaports.

LANGS-ROAD BRIDGE, FOOTSCRAY.

RECONSTRUCTION.

Mr. EDMUNDS (Moonee Ponds) asked the Minister of Public W orks-

Whether plans exist for the renewal of the Langs-road Bridge; if so-(a) who prepared these plans, and at what cost; (b) when it is proposed to commence the reconstruction; and (c) whether the honorable members for Footscray and Moonee Ponds will be supplied with a copy?


Inquiries at the Country Roads Board and the Footscray City Council reveal that there are no plans.

SHEPPARTON PUBLIC OFFICES. SALE TO COMMONWEALTH.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shepparton) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Whether the State offices situated in Wyndham-street, Shepparton, and the adjoining land, have been sold; if so, what was the sale price, and to whom they were sold?


(a) Yes. (b) The sum of $150,000. (c) Commonwealth of Australia.

INCINERATORS AT SEAPORTS. NEGOTIATIONS WITH COMMONWEALTH

GOVERNMENT.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Public Works-

Whether agreement has been finalized between the Commonwealth Government and the State Government regarding the installation and operation of incinerators to dispose of ships' garbage at the various Victorian ports; if not, why?


Final agreement has not been reached. Vic:toria has always maintained that

quarantine is entirely a responsibility of the Commonwealth Government, and that the State should not be put to additional expense to implement the quarantine regulations.

However, in view of certain assurances given by the Prime Minister on 9th September, 1968, I asked the authorities concerned to proceed with the calling of

tenders for the construction of incinerators at Melbourne, Portland, Geelong and Westernport, in accordance with plans and specifications approved by the Commonwealth.

This action has been taken without prejudice to Victoria's right to negotiate further on operating, maintenance and replacement costs, which, up to the present, the Commonwealth has refused to meet.

UNIFORM BUILDING REGULATIONS.

NATIONAL STANDARDIZATION.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Public Works, for the Minister for Local Government-

Whether there is a move to standardize building regulations throughout Australia; if so, whether the State of Victoria has been consulted, and what stage the project has reached?

Mr. PORTER (Minister of Public Works) .-The answer provided by the Minister for Local Government is-

Yes. All States have agreed to work together to prepare uniform building regulations in the form of a model code suitable for adoption in each State. Victoria has two representatives on the Interstate Standing Committee on Uniform Building Regulations and the first series of the code has been forwarded to each State.

HOUSING COMMISSION. TRANSFER OF HOUSES FROM WINCHEL

SEA TO GEELONG: ESTIMATED COSTS.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton asked the Minister of Housing-

1. What is the estimated cost to transfer each Housing Commission home at Winchelsea to the Geelong area?

2. What is the estimated cost to construct similar homes in the Geelong area now?


1. The sum of $3,000 exclusive of land. 2. An amount of $7,000 per unit.

HOUSING. LAND AND DWELLINGS: PROPORTIONAL

COSTS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Housing-

1. Whether any survey has been made of the proportion of the cost of land to the total oost of a dwelling; if so, what the survey indicated?

Bush Fires. [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Off-shore Oil Rigs. 515

2. Whether any action has been taken to prevent land prices rising to facilitate home ownership among low-income earners; if so, what action?


1. No general survey has been made of the proportion of cost of land in relation to the total cost of a dwelling, but it is evident that the cost of land has increased more in proportion to building costs in recent years.

A limited survey carried out by the Department of Housing in respect of applications made in Victoria for home savings grants indicates the following percentages:-

March, 1967. March, 1968.

Land. Dwelling. Land. Dwelling.

% % % % 20·6 79·4 21·4 78·6

I

The above survey discloses that the proportion of cost of land to total cost is approximately 1 in 5, but these figures apply only to homes where the total costs of the dwelling do not exceed $15,000.

2. In order to assist low-income earners in home ownership, the Housing Commission has made land available to private home builders at cost of development and will continue to do so.

BUSH FIRES. FIRE-FIGHTING TECHNIQUES: OVER

SEAS STUDIES: USE OF AIRCRAFT.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Forests-

1. Whether a study has been made of aircraft developments and aerial fire-fighting techniques in other countries; if so, whether any of these techniques can be applied to the Victorian situation?

2. Whether consideration has been given to acquiring any special water-bombing type aircraft from Canada for use in combating bush fires; if not, why?

Mr. MEAGHER (Minister of Forests) .-The answers are-

1. The Forests Commission has always kept abreast of overseas developments in the use of aircraft in forest fire control. In the last four years, two of its officers have had the opportunity of studying such developments in Canada and. the United States of America.

Techniques considered suitable for use in the forests of this State are being applied. The Commission uses fixed wing

aircraft for fire reconnaissance and patrol, for bombing fires with retardant and for dropping supplies to crews in inaccessible areas.

A helicopter has been used for detailed mapping of fire edges, for ferrying men and, in the case of the Myrtleford fire early this year, for aerial ignition of an area which had to be burnt out to gain control of the fire.

2. Following negotiations with representatives of the company in Melbourne, the Honorable L. H. S. Thompson, M.L.C., then Minister of Forests, and the chairman of the Forests Commission, Mr. A. O. Lawrence, visited the Canadair establishment at Montreal in 1966, to see and to discuss the water bomber then under construction. This is the unit which has recently been featured in the press. The Government, after consultation with the Commission, is of the opinion that the capital cost of such aircraft, about $800,000, would be prohibitive in relation to the length of the average summer and the fact that at least three aircraft would be needed to provide an effective striking force under severe conditions with fires under way. One outstanding problem is that the aircraft is designed to refill its tanks at speed while taxi-ing on the surface of a lake-a simple, safe and efficient operation on the natural lakes and waterways of Canada, but hazardous and impracticable on by far the greater part of our State storages which, at summer levels, have snags protruding from or close to the surface of the water. The Commission considers it is more practicable to drop chemical retardant using land-based aircraft which are already available in the State.

OFF ·SHORE OIL RIGS. FIRST-AID FACILITIES.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Mines-

Whether, in view of the allegations made by some survivors of the helicopter disaster at the Barracouta natural gas off-shore rig that first-aid facilities were very limited, he will take action to ensure that all such installations have first-aid facilities of a standard equal to the highest standard existing on land-based industrial establishments?

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister of Mines). -The answer is-

The safety provisions of the Institute of Petroleum" Code of Safe Practice for Drilling Production, and Pipeline Operation in Marine Areas" have been applied by direction in off-shore areas adjacent to Victoria and have the force of regulations. The provision of first-aid facilities is a requirement under this code. "

516 Education. [ASSEMBLY.] Department ..

My. inspectors have given particular attentlOn to the standard of first-aid facilities provided and have assured me that the facilities are at least equivalent to those required by the Labour and Industry (General Safety) Regulations 1965.

Frequent inspections are made of all offshore operations and first-aid facilities are checked on every occasion.

In the case of the Barracouta II A" platform, an inspection was carried out on the day before the helicopter accident and the inspector reported that first-aid facilities exceeded the requirements of the Labour and Industry Regulations.

A further direction relating to safety of operations is in final draft form and will shortly be given. This direction specifically requires that first-aid facilities be' at least in accordance with the Labour and Industry (General Safety) Regulations 1965.

TRACTORS. SAFETY DEVICES: OVERSEAS

LEGISLATION.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry-

1. Whether any action has been taken to ensure the development of safety devices for farm tractors, to make them subject to examination before being licensed for sale?

2. Whether he is aware of the legislation proposed 'in New Zealand to deal with this problem; if so, whether any aspects of this proposed legislation can be applied to increase safety in rural industry in Victoria?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers are-

1. Any provision to require the licensing of such devices would need to be enacted by statute. No legislation for this purpose has yet been prepared.

2. The whole question of tractor safety legislation is at present under consideration in my Department. The measures taken in New Zealand, as well as those taken in Britain and Sweden, are being studied in this conn ex ion.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. TEACHERS' COLLEGES: STUDENTSHIPS.


1. How many qualified students were refused studentships at Victorian teachers: colleges this year?

2. Whether, in previous years, students holding these qualifications would have been eligible for studentships?

3. Whether the Government has any plans to absorb such prospective teachers?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has furnished the following .answers:-

1. In 1968, a total of 3,201 applicants were not awarded studentships for a variety of reasons. These included withdrawal of application prior to selection, ineligibility on account of age, domicile, citizenship and marital status. Other reasons were insufficient academic qualifications, personal unsuitability and medical unsuitability.

To ascertain the numbers of applicants not selected for anyone of these reasons would require detailed research into the 3,201 applications.

However, it must be remembered that the number of students awarded stiidentships has greatly increased since the middle 1950's; for example, in 1955, the number of studentship awards made Was 1,499; in 1961, 2,522; and in 1968, 3,993.

2. It is possible that a number of the above unsuccessful applicants would have been successful in previous years.

3. Consideration is being given to increasing our teacher training facilities. It is not proposed to lower the standards of entry to teachers' colleges. However, it is not unusual for students, unsuccessful in their first application, to improve their qualifications and succeed in subsequent applications.

PRIMARY SCHOOLS IN BROADMEADOWS ELECTORATE: CLASS-ROOMS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) a'sked the 'Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. Which primary schools in the Broadmeadows electorate are to receive additional permanent class-rooms in the current financial year?

2. How many class-rooms are to be supplied to each school?

3. When it is proposed to call tenders for the building of these class-rooms?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry).-The answers provided by the Minister of Education are-

1 and 2. State School No. 4952, Coolaroo South, is to receive six permanent rooms, and State School No. 982, Westmeadows, one room.

3. A tender has already been accepted for the building of the rooms at Coolaroo South. The building of the room at Westmeadows was included in a bulk contract for the erection of new schools and additions at existing schools. Tenders for this work closed on 17th September, 1968.

Universities. [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Education. , 517

CORIO LAND: GRASS CUTTING.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. Who is responsible for the cutting of grass on undeveloped Education Department land in the Shire of Corio?

2. Whether, in the event that it is the Department's responsibility, he will ensure that areas in the Corio B. and C. housing estate will be cut in the immediate futur~?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The Minister of Education has provided the following answers:-

1. This land, whilst reserved for fu tuI'e educational purposes, is still owned and controlled by the Housing Commission which is responsible for the cutting of grass.

2. It is understood that the Commission has made arrangements to have the area cleared.

UNIVERSITIES. ASIAN LANGUAGES COURSES.


Whether Victorian students are being refused admission to Asian languages courses at university level because of overcrowding or quota problems, while overseas students are being admitted because they are more easily able to pass the aptitude tests which determine final admission; if so, whether the Minister will take steps, without interfering with the autonomy of the universities or with the principle of accepting overseas students, to correct this anomaly?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-The answer provided by the Minister of Education is-

At the University of Melbourne, Asian language courses are studied in the Faculty of Arts. Selection for the arts course is on the same basis as for other courses, namely, academic performance at the Victorian matriculation examination. Having been selected, students must have their courses

1. Made available by the Commonwealth-

approved, and, so far as is known, there is no problem in accommodating those who wish to do the arts course in an Asian language.

Monash University offers two Asian languages, Japanese and Indonesian. The quota for Japanese 1 in 1968 was 40 ,but it has not been filled. The quota fixed for Indonesian 1 was 120 but it has not been found possible to exceed this number although some students have been unable to take the subject. It is not the case that Asian students find it easier to gain selection within the quota than Australian students and, indeed, some Asian students 'who already had a knowledge of the language were refused admission to Indonesian 1. La Trobe University does not at' present offer courses in any Asian -language.

EDUCATION. SCIENCE LABORATORIES: COMMON-

WEALTH GRANTS.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) asked the Minister of Labour and Industry, for the Minister of Education-

1. What amount of money has been provided by the Commonwealth Government for the building of science laboratories at secondary schools each year since the scheme has operated?

2. How much of the money has been allocated to each State secondary school and private secondary school, respectively, in each year?

3. Of the total amount received from the Commonwealth Government each year, how much was spent in each year?

4. Whether any amounts are left unspent to date; if so, what amounts?

Mr. ROSSITER (Minister of Labour and Industry) .-Although the answers to these questions are short, they comprise statistical information and references to millions of dollars. I seek leave of the House to have them incorporated in Hansard without being read.


Commonwealth grants for science laboratories became available in 1964-65. The information sought is-

- 1964-65. 1965-66. 1966-67. 1967-68. 1968-69.

$ $ $ $ $ State schools .. .. 2,045,200 2,045,200 2,045,200 2,045,200 2,041,000

Registered schools .. 754,000 754,000 754,000 1,508,000 1,504,700

Total .. .. 2,799,200 I 2,799,200 2,799,200 3,553,200 3,545,700

518 Railway Department. [ASSEMBLY.] Decentralization.

2. Allocations to individual registered schools are made by the Commonwealth, and details of them are not available. Of the amounts available for State schools, a portion is set aside for the purchase of

3. Spent in each year-

- 1964.

$

equipment and the remainder is used for the building of laboratories. A departmental committee determines the State schools which are to receive laboratories and the relative priorities.

To 30th 1965. 1966. 1967. September,

1968.

$ $ $ $

tate schools S

R

.. .. 566,562 3,099,252 2,162,189 1,801,654 404,469

egistered schools .. 754,000 704,578 753,838 1,520,961 651,618

Total . . .. 1,320,562 3,803,830 2,916,027 3,322,615 1,056,087

4. Amounts unspent at the end of each financial year are carried forward to the following year.

RAILWAY DEPARTMENT.

MELBOURNE-ADELAIDE SERVICE:

SLEEPING BERTH ACCOMMODATION.

For Mr. WHITING (Mildura), Mr. Buckley asked the Minister of Transport-

1. How many sleeping berth passengers travelled from Melbourne to Adelaide on the Overland on Wednesday, 25th September, 1968?

2. How many vacant sleeping berths were available on that train at the time of departure?

3. How many modem sleeping cars are available for use between Melbourne and Adelaide, and how many were in use on this occasion?

4. What was the disposition of the cars not in use at night?

For Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport), Mr. Meagher (Minister of Housing).-The answers are-

1. One hundred and thirty-two.

2. Twenty-eight.

3. Eighteen modem cars are available. Sixteen cars were in use on this occasion -eight in each direction between Melbourne and Adelaide.

4. One spare car was being overhauled in the workshops of the South Australian Railways and one spare car was in Melbourne.

DECENTRALIZATION.

DEVELOPMENT BERS AND INDUSTRIES: SISTANCE: DUSTRIES.

COMMITTEES: MEM-OFFICERS: ApPROVED COMMONWEALTH As

NEW SECONDARY IN-

Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands) asked the Minister of State Development-

1. At what locations development committees have been established by the Government, as a result of the report furnished by the Decentralization Advisory Committee?

2. Who are the members and officers of each development committee, and how many meetings each committee has held to date?

3. How many approved decentralized industries have been established as a result of each committee's activities, giving the name and location of each industry and the number of persons employed at each location?

4. If he will lay on the table of the Library the file dealing with the submissions made to the Commonwealth Government for assistance to encourage decentralization, and the replies received?

5. Which country towns are regarded as most urgently needing governmental assistance in setting up new secondary industries, in order to retain existing population in the district and to provide additional job opportunities for persons offering, including young people who otherwise may be forced to seek employment away from home?

6. What specific efforts have been, or are . being, made to satisfy the needs of these

towns?

Decentralization. [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Decentralization. 519

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development) .-The answers to these questions are lengthy, and with the leave of the House I should like them incorporated in Hansard without my reading them.


1. Development committees have already been set up and are operating at Ballarat, Bendigo, Latrobe Valley and Wodonga.

The first meeting of the Portland Development Committee is expected to be called towards the end of this current month.

2. Ballarat Development Committee (Six ordinary meetings held to date) comprises-

Municipal representatives-City of Ballarat.-Cr. K. C. Webb. Borough of Sebastopol.-Cr. N. F. D.

Donald. Shire of Ballarat.-Cr. C. S. Gist. Shire of Bungaree.-Cr. C. H. Rumber. Shire of Buninyong.-Cr. J. W. Sobey. Shire of Grenville.-Cr. H. O'C.

Kennedy. Non-municipal representatives-

Mr. D. G. E. Cowles.-Production Supervisor, Ballarat Courier.

Mr. R. G. Frappell.-Acting Promotion Officer, Division of State Development.

Mr. I. D. McCoy.-General Manager, James Selkirk Pty. Ltd.

Mr. J. Trevenen.-Wyres Bros .. Ballarat.

Secretary-Mr. H. R. Tonks, Ballarat Chamber of Manufactures.

Bendigo Development Committee-(Seven ordinary meetings held to date) comprises-Municipal representatives-

City of Bendigo-Cr. R. W. Cambridge. Borough of Eaglehawk-Cr. A. L. Roy. Shire of Huntly-Cr. S. T. Takasuka. Shire of Marong-Cr. C. A. Robinson. Shire of Strathfieldsaye-Cr. K. Houla-

han.

Non-municipal representatives-Mr. G. R. Alderson-Bradford Cotton

Mills. Mr. J. M. Cohn-Cohn Bros. Limited. Mr. C. L. Fernando-Acting Promotion

Officer, Division of State Development.

Mr. R. G. Ham-Chartered Accountant, Bendigo.

Secretary-Mr. D. T. Andrew, Chartered Accountant, Bendigo.

Latrobe Valley Development Committee(Five ordinary meetings held to date) comprises-

Municipal representativesCity of Moe--Cr. G. Griffin. City of Traralgon-Cr. B. F. Lord. Shire of Morwell-Cr. J. W. Jones. Shire of Narracan-Cr. E. J. Keating. Shire of Traralgon-Cr. E. A. Farmer.

Non-municipal representatives-Mr. H. Baskin-Acting Promotion

Officer, Division of State Development.

Mr. G. Black-Assistant Manager, Latrobe Valley Region, State Electricity Commission.

Mr. T. H. Furlonger-Managing Director, Latrobe Valley Bus Lines.

Mr. W. G. Purvis-Chairman of Directors, W.A. Purvis Stores Pty. Ltd.

Mr. C. J. Rodd-Manager, A.P.M. Ltd., Maryvale.

Secretary-Mr. J. W. Gardner, Latrobe Valley Water and Sewerage Board.

Wodonga Development Committee-(Four ordinary meetings and three joint meetings with Albury Development Committee held to date) comprises-

Municipal representatives-Shire of Wodonga-Cr. J. A. Terrill

and Cr. B. Cox. Non-municipal representatives-

Mr. A. Turner-Personnel Director, Uncle Ben's Inc.

Mr. W. K. Black-Manager, Bradford Kendall Pty. Ltd.

Mr. R. F. Wiltshire-Managing Director, Wiltshire and Rattray Pty. Ltd.

Secretary-Mr. G. J. Morton, Secretary, Shire of Wodonga.

3. No approved decentralized industries have yet been established as a direct result of the activities of development committees although certain negotiations are currently in hand.

4. Yes. 5. All country towns are anxious for the

creation of job opportunities to arrest population drift to the metropolitan area and to attract additional population. The incentives held out to industry by the Government are designed to achieve this and the activities of the Division of State Development on behalf of all provincial centres will continue undiminished.

With the exception of Wonthaggi, which, because of its unusual circumstances, is in need of, and is receiving, considerable special assistance, the Government believes that the concentration of effort in respect of the development of the five chosen places will go a long way towards achieving an improved distribution of population throughout the State. It is also believed that such concentrated development will provide a wide variety of employment opportunities relatively close to home for a large proportion of the non-metropolitan population.

520 Department [ASSEMBLY.] of Health.

6. The Government continues, through the Division of State Development, to cooperate with all provincial centres wishing to pursue a policy of industrial development. Apart from the generous application of the available incentives to industry, joint publicity campaigns are commonplace and effective.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH. DISPENSING OF INTERSTATE DOCTORS

PRESCRIPTIONS.

Mr. BIRRELL (Geelong) asked the Minister of State Development, ,for the Minister of Health-

Whether interstate doctors prescriptions cannot be dispensed in Victoria; if so, whether action is being taken to correct this situation?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Development).-The Minister of of Health has proVlided the fonowing answer:-

Prescriptions for drugs of addiotion or restricted substances written by medical practitioners not registered in Victoria cannot legally be dispensed in this State. Generally, medioal pr.actitioners practising in border towns obtain registration both in their own and in the adjoining State.

The regulations in regard to the dispensing of prescriptions are contained in the Drugs of Addiction and Restricted Substances Regulations 1966, and impose on medical praotitioners ,a number of requirements such ,as legible writing, name and address of the praotitioner, name and address of the patient, quantity of drugs for use, &c. Any requirements under a Victorian Act could not be enforced where the medical practitioner concerned is registered only in another State of the Commonwealth.

However, any prescription which does not contain a restricted substance or a drug of addiction, even though of interstate or overseas origin, may be dispensed at the discretion of the pharmaceutical chemist.

The position in Victoria is similar 1:0 that in all other States of the Commonwealth, although in Queensland "a pharmaceutical chemist may, in his discretion, dispense on one occasion only a prescription containing a restricted drug, other than a declared drug, which prescription has been written by a medioal practitioner registered in another State, but in such case he shall cancel it and endorse it in his own hand writi.ng ". Consideration is being given as to whether any action is needed to overcome situa,tions where a genuine hardship exists.

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS: INCIDENCE: RESEARCH: REHABILITATION OF SUFFERERS.

For Mr. TREZISE (Geelong North), Mr. Wilton ,asked the Minister of State Development, ;for the Minister of Health-

1. What records are kept of the occurrence of multiple sclerosis in Victori,a?

2. How many such cases are at present in Victoria?

3. What are the symptoms of the disease? 4. What is the cause of the disease? 5. What research is being carried out in

this State on the disease? 6. Whether there is a cure for the disease? 7. Whether consideration is being given

to the establishment of an assistance and rehabilitation centre for sufferers?

,Mr. MANSON (M,inister of State Development).-The Min1ister of Health has provided the following answers :-

1. Multiple sclerosis is not a notifiable disease within the meaning of the Health Act, and the only records kept are voluntary records, none of which can be regarded as complete.

The Victorian Society for Crippled Children and Adults has records of 216 persons with multiple sclerosis who were given help during the past twelve months.

2. The total number of cases is unknown but must exceed 216.

3. The symptoms of the disease vary considerably from patient 1:0 patient, depending on the site and distribution of the lesion in the brain and the spinal cord. In general, however, they are of a neurological nature, ,and alterations of sensory functions, motor function and emotional behaviour. One form of ,the disease presents with a transient blindness which may recur. The occurring of the disease is very varied, but there seem to be two main categories:-

(a) The disease progresses intermittently, but relatively rapidly, and the patient dies within ,a few years.

(b) Intermittent episodes of partial disability, which, however, improve spasmodically and can be helped by physiotherapy. These patients may live a normal life span, and in between their episodes of disease can function normally.

4. This is unknown, although various theories have been put up, such as :-

(a) It is a virus infection of the central nervous system.

(b) It is due to a dietary deficiency of some rare metal.

· Department [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] of Health. 521

(c) It is an allergic reaction within the central nervous system.

(d) It is a form of auto-immune disease.

(e) Some genetic f,actor is involved in the transmission of the disease.

The current trend would seem to favour regarding this condition as being, in part at least, an auto-immune disease.

5. Some research is being carried out on multiple sclerosis at the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute.

6. There is no known cure for this disease although patients can be helped considerably in a variety of ways. Most particularly, physiotherapy treatment is of extreme value in the rehabilitation of multiple sclerosis patients.

7. No. It is generally regarded that the present Department of HeaUh facilities, which include an itinerant physiotherapy service and hostel accommodation at the Lady Dugan Hostel, together with the facilities present at all major public hospitals, and in particular the neurological clinics which have access to all other hospital departments would seem to provide an adequate service for multiple sclerosis sufferers. In addition, the Victorian Society for Crippled Children and Adults makes its facilities available, especially in giving support to the families, and providing sheltered workshops and craft services.

INFECTIOUS HEPATITIS: INCIDENCE: PUBLICITY: RESEARCH.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Pa'rk) asked the M·inister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

Whether infectious hepatitis is approaching epidemic proportions in Victoria; if so, whether the Department of Health- (a) has any programme to alert -the public to the dangers of this disease; (b) is undertaking any urgent research into methods of prevention as well as cure, of this disease?

Mr. MANSON (Minister of State Devel,opment).-The Minister of Hea1lth has provided the following answer :-

Infectious hepatitis has been an epidemic disease in ,the community since the end of the 1939-45 war, exhibiting epidemic peaks followed by periods of diminished incidence.

Highest notifications have been as follows :-1955-3,776; 1961-3,515; 1963-3,883.

The figure for this year-I,738-is 311 lower than the corresponding period of last year when the total notifications for the year were 3,012.

(a) The public is aware of this disease through repeated reference in press, radio and television following meetings of the Commission of Public Health and the board of management of Fairfield Hospital. In addition the Department distributes posters and pamphlets and health education is directed at school teachers for dissemination to pupils.

(b) It should be appreciated that control of this disease mainly depends on the isolation of the casual virus and the preparation of ·a safe and effective vaccine. Research centres throughout the world have directed years of study to this problem. However, to date the results have been rather disappointing. Fairfield Hospital, which has the support of the Department, has been one such research organization. Passive immunity lasting some four weeks may be conferred by the innoculation of a serum, gamma globulin.

Until an antiviral drug is discovered, there is no specific drug treatment for this disease. However, in severe life-threatening cases of acute liver failure, recent developments have been evolved including exchange blood transfusions, and the use of pigs livers both in conjunction with advanced biochemical tests. Fairfield Hospital has been prominent in this area.

CANCER: RESEARCH WORK: ANNUAL EXPENDITURE.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Pa'rk) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minlister of Healbh-

1. What research is being conducted in Victoria into the prevention and cure of cancer?

2. In what institutions the research is being conducted.

3. How many researchers are engaged full-time on this work?

4. How many researchers are engaged part-time on this work, and what is the equivalent in persons engaged full-time?

5. How much is spent annually on this research?

6. What are the extent and circumstances of any major contributions by overseas countries to such research in Victoria?

Mr. MANSON (Min'i,ster of State Development).-'f.he answers provided by the Minister of Health 'are-

1. The Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria supports a considerable amount of basic cancer research being conducted at ·a number of institutions in ,the State. Research reports giving details are issued by that council each year. Copies for 1966 and 1967 are available and that for 1968 is expected to be printed at an early date.

522 Department of Health. [ASSEMBL Y.] Wat~r Supplies.

The Cancer Institute Board, which is substantially Suppol"lted from State revenue, undertakes research in the fields of biology, biochemistry, haematology, endocrinology and medical physics and also carries out clinical research for the purpose of improving existing methods of treating cancer. Details have been published in medical and scientific journals.

2. Departments of the medical schools of Melbourne and Monash universities, departments of the Cancer Institute, the Baker Medical Research Institute, the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute, the Royal Children'S Hospital and the Victorian College of Pharmacy.

3 and 4. The Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria supports three full-time researchers but it is difficult to give an accurate total figure because part-time research work is carried out in association with teaching and hospital commitments. The council considers that time equivalent to the full-time employment of between 30 and 40 researchers is spent on the projects it supports.

It is estimated that time equivalent to the full-time employment of 30 to 35 researchers is spent on research at the Cancer Institute.

5. The Anti-Cancer Council of Victoria spends approximately $150,000 a year on the research projects its supports while the Cancer Institute research costs are in the vicinity of $170,000 a year.

6. The National Institute of Health of the United States of America has made a grant of approximately $67,000 spread over three years for paJ'lticular piece of cancer research being carried out at the Walter and Eliza Hall Institute.

BRUCELLOSIS: INCIDENCE: OUTBREAK

IN GIPPSLAND.

Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South) asked the M'inister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

1. What steps are being taken by the Department of Health to investigate the incidence of bruceIIosis?

2. Whether there is an outbreak of this disease in Gippsland; if so, where?

Mr. MANSON (Minister ,of State Development).-TheM!inister of Health has furnished the fol'lowing answers :-

1. Investigations are made by the Department into all notified cases of brucellosis directed essentially to the age, sex, occupation, contact with animals (and animal products) and consumption of dairy products.

Serological surveys to determine the incidence of infection in certain occupational groups were initiated by the Department fifteen years ago and are repeated at intervals.

2. Brucellosis has been occurring in dairying areas of ,the State including Gippsland for many years. The number of cases coming :to notice is higher this year than in the previous two years mainly in the shires of Woorayl, Korumburra and South Gippsland Whether this is a true increased incidence or a reflection of other aspects such as better case finding has not yet been resolved.

WATER SUPPLIES. FLUORIDATION: REPORT OF

TASMANIAN ROYAL COMMISSION.

Dr. JENKINS (Reservoir) asked the Minister of State Development, for the Minister of Health-

Whether the Minister is able and prepared to make available to honorable members the report of the Tasmanian Royal Commission into fluoridation of water supplies?

Mr. MANSON CMinister of State Development).-The ans'wer furnished by the Minister of Health ds-

The Minister of Health has arranged to obtain from the Tasmanian Minister of Health sufficient copies of the report of the Tasmanian Royal Commission into fluoridation of wa,ter supplies to enable a number to be given to the Leader of each party. In the meantime, ,a copy of this report is available in the Library of the Parliament.

LAND SETTLEMENT. FUTURE OF LITTLE DESERT AREA.

Mr. BUCKLEY (Lowan) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Mlinister of Agriculture-

Whether, in view of the repeated warnings by Sir Samuel Wadham and others on the doubtful economic success of large scale development in ,the Little Desert area, the Department of Agriculture will conduct a thorough examination of all aspects before proceeding further?

For Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister.of Lands), Mr. Balfour (M.inister for Fuel and Power).-The ans'wer provided by the Minister of Agriculture is-

The Department of Agriculture is represented on the Land Utilization Advisory Council which has reported on the future use of the Little Desert area. This report is currently under consideration.

Department [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] of Agriculture. 523

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE.

FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE: PRE

VENTIVE MEASURES: ERADICATION

PROCEDURES: COMPENSATION.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Lands, for the Minister of Agriculture-

1. What steps have been taken to prevent entry of foot and mouth disease into Victoria?

2. What procedures exist to contain and eradicate any outbreak of foot and mouth disease?

3. What provision there is for compensation for cattle destroyed because of an outbreak or suspected outbreak of the disease?

For Sir WILLIAM McDONALD (Minister of Lands), Mr. Balfour (Minister for Fuel and Power).-The answers provided by the Minister of Agriculture are-

The prevention of introduction of exotic disease is a matter under the administrative control of the Commonwealth Department of Health. Under the Commonwealth Quarantine Act and regulations there is a complete prohibition on the introduction of animals which might introduce these diseases. There is also a prohibition on the introduction of animal products including raw meat and raw hide from countries where foot and mouth disease occurs and there is provision for regulation of introduction and treatment at approved works of imported wool.

There is also provision for treatment of articles or clothing, gear, or personal effects which have been in contact with animals in countries from which foot and mouth disease might be introduced.

2. Under the Australian Agricultural Council a committee was established which was originally known as the Foot and Mouth Committee, which was later known as the Exotic Disease CommiHee, and which has now been made a sub-committee of the Commonwealth and States Veterinary Committee.

Through the work of this committee plans have been prepared in each State and Territory to deal with any outbreak of foot and mouth disease which may occur in the Commonwealth or its Territories. These plans envisage that the State or Territory in which the outbreak initially occurs would be provided with financial and technical assistance from the Commonwealth and Territories to assist in dealing with any outbreak which might occur.

3. Under Part V. of the Stock Diseases Act 1958 of the State of Victoria there is provision for the establishment of a foot and mouth disease eradication fund. This part of the Act provides for compensation of all stock and property destroyed because of an outbreak or suspect outbreak of foot and mouth disease.

STATE RIVERS AND WATER SUPPLY COMMISSION.

GOULBURN-MuRRAY IRRIGATION DISTRICT: ALLOCATION OF WATER.

Mr. R. S. L. McDONALD (Rodney) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

What expansion has taken place in irrigation districts over the last five years, and how many acre-feet of water have been allocated as a result of this expansion?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Water Supply.-The answer is-

The only significant expansion in the irri-. gation districts administered by the Com

mission has occurred in the GoulburnMurray Irrigation District. The relevant statistIcs for this district as at 30th June, 1963 and 30th June, 1968, are as follows:-

- 1963. 1968. Increase.

acres. acres. acres.

Gross area .. 1,984,318 2,008,858 24,540

Area irrigated 823,734 947,901 124,167

The volume of additional water rights allocated in this district during the last five years is approximately 430,000 acre-feet.

With the exception of approximately 20,000 acre-feet, all of this additional water right has been allocated to irrigators already in the district.

CHOWILLA DAM. CONSTRUCTION: INVESTIGATIONS.

Mr. GINIFER (Deer Park) asked the Minister of Water Supply-

What is the current position in regard to the construction of the Chowilla dam?

Mr. BORTHWICK (Minister of Water Supply.-The answer is-

At its meeting in August, 1967, the River Murray Commission decided to defer construction of the dam pending further investigations. These investigations are threefold.

First, an examination of the whole question of salinity in the Murray basin. This is being carried out by local and overseas consultants working in association. The

524 Education (Teachers' [ASSEMBLY.] Residences) Bill.

full report is not expected until June, 1969. However, an interim report on the effect on salinity in the River Murray of storages at either Chowilla or an alternative storage on the upper river is expected at the end of this year.

Secondly, studies under a wide variety of operating conditions to assess the likely benefits from both Chowilla and an alternative storage on the upper river such as could be provided. at the Dartmouth site on the Mitta Mitta river. These studies are well advanced.

Thirdly, an engineering feasibility and cost study of the alternative storage at Dartmouth. This work is being done by the Snowy Mountains Authority and the report is expected at the end of this year.

This question makes me wonder whether the honorable member for Deer Park received a copy of a publication by the River Murray Commission which I recently sent to members of this House. If he did not receive a copy, I shall be pleased to provide him with one.

TOURIST BILL. Mr. MANSON (Minister of State

Development) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to establish a Ministry of Touri~m and for other purposes.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read a

first time.

NATIONAL PARKS (LITTLE DESERT) BILL.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to make provision with respect to the establishment of a national park, containing about 18,000 acres in the vicinity of the Lowan Sanctuary and for other purposes.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was brought in and read a

first time.

EDUCATION (TEACHERS' RESIDENCES) BILL.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -I move-

That I have leave to bring in a Bill to make provision for adequate and suitable housing accommodation for teachers employed in the Education Department of Victoria and for other purposes.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie). - Without having heard from the honorable member, it appears to me that this proposed measure could be a financial one. This is a matter of some importance in relation to the handling of the Bill in the Legislative Assembly, and I should like to hear the honorable member on it.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West). -I am glad to have an opportunity to explain the purpose of the Bill. It involves the use of funds for the financing of a housing scheme. The funds consist not of Crown money, but of money which will come from another source. Legislation such as is proposed is not new in State spheres. In Western Australia a Government employees' housing authority was established to assist in the provision of accommodation for teachers and other Government employees. The funds used by that authority are made available by the local State Superannuation Board. As I understand it, funds which are made available for teachers' houses in Victoria are now provided by the Treasury; but I understand that approximately 1,150 teachers still require houses.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon CHRISTIE).-I do not think the honorable member should go into the details of the Bill; he should deal only with the matter of finance.

Mr. TURNBULL.-I shall be glad to do so, Mr. Speaker. I have a copy of a letter dated lIth July, 1968, from the investment manager of the Superannuation Board, Canberra City, to the assistant general secretary of the Victorian Teachers' Union. It states-

Funds are not available fOor investment in loans to co-operative housing societies or to individuals but the Board does have investments with housing authorities in some States whose borrowings are Government guaranteed. An Education Department Housing Authority established with statutory power to borrow on a long term basis and provide security in the form of a Government guarantee as to both principal and interest would seem to be in the nature of

Education (Teachers' [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Residences) Bill. 525

a State Housing Authority. If this were so, the Authority could apply to the Board for finance.

Mr. G. O. REID.-In that letter there was reference to a Government guarantee.

Mr. TURNBULL.-The moneys involved are not those of the State of Victoria. Concerning the general principle of the stage at which a Governor's message is received, I point out that there is before the House a Bill which is in a similar position to that which I propose to bring in. It is obvious that some 'Of the Bills on the Notice Paper involve Crown moneys. I consider that rulings from the Chair should be consistent.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon CHRISTIE).-No ruling has yet been given.

Mr. TURNBULL.-Perhaps I am anticipating it, Mr. Speaker.

The SPEAKER.-The House must be aware of the point I am dealing with in relation to this Bill. Section LVII. of The Constitution Act provides-It shall not be lawful for the Legislative Assembly to originate or pass any vote resolution or Bill for the appropriation of any part of the said consolidated revenue fund or of any other duty rate tax rent return or impost for any purpose which shall not have been first recommended by a message of the Governor to the Legislative Assembly during the session in which such vote resolution or Bill shall be passed.

Perhaps the Attorney-General would care to comment on the question.

Mr. G. O. REID (Attorney-General). -Having listened to the honorable member for Brunswick West, it appears to me that the fund he described is fully dependent upon a Government guarantee. In my opinion, the language of section LVII. of The Constitution Act is wide enough to apply to the set of facts outlined by the honorable member and that, as the fund is to be supported by such a guarantee, it must contingently pledge the revenue of the State.

Therefore, it is not competent for the honorable member to introduce a Bill without a message from the Governor.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) (By leave) .-Section LVII. of The Constitution Act states-

It shall not be lawful for the Legislative Assembly to originate' or pass any vote resolution or Bill for the appropriation of any part of the said consolidated revenue fund or of any other duty rate tax rent return or impost-

-there is no duty, rate, tax, rent, return or impost involved; as I understand it, an impost is in the nature of a tax-for any purpose which shall not have been first recommended by a message of the Governor .....

I submit that this matter is clearly outside the provisions of The Constitution Act. An indefinite word like " guarantee" would have been mentioned in the Act if it had been appropriate. I submit that the proposed Bill clearly falls outside the scope and intention of section LVII. of The Constitution Act.

Mr. G. O. REID (kttorneyGeneral) (By leave) .-1 wish to point out that Bills for the purpose of increasing the amount of loan funds to be made available to the State Electricity Commission--

Mr. TURNBULL.-That is money. Mr. G. O. REID.-It is not Consoli

dated Revenue, but the actual funds bear the Government's guarantee. The practice of introducing such Bills by means of a Governor's message has grown in recent times. In my former capacity as Minister of Electrical Undertakings, I introduced a number of Bills which were preceded by a message from the Governor.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie ).-AHhough it may not be mentioned in The Constitution Act, it is the practice of this House that where a Government guarantee is involved a message from the Governor is presented to the House. I am assured that that is the practice of the

526 Revocation and Excision of [ASSEMBLY.] Crown Reservations Bill.

House and always has been. If a Governor's message is required, it may not be possible to proceed further with the proposed Bill.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) (By leave) .-No doubt the Attorney-General, who was previously Minister of Electrical Undertakings, and who is a lawyer and possibly over-cautious, embodied the question of a guarantee. The meaning of the word " impost" is a " duty or tax on goods," which bears out what I said previously. In construing the statutes, one has to give effect to the clear meaning of the words. I should have thought that no practice of this House, whether long-standing or otherwise, could be used to construe a statute in a particular way. For example, a member of the Police Force may indulge in a system or practice in the interpretation of the Motor Car Act, but that does not make his actions lawful. When a ruling is given on the meaning of a section of The Constitution Act I submit that past practices must' be excluded.

The SPEAKER (the Hon. Vernon Christie).-Order! I have given ·my ruling.

. Mr. TuRNBuLL.-Can I in some way dIsagree with your ruling, Sir?

The SPEAKER.-Order! The honorable member has had ample opportunity to state his views.

REVOCATION AND EXCISION OF CROWN RESERVATIONS

BILL. The debate (adjourned from Sep

tember 10) on the motion of Sir William McDonald (Minister of Lands) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILTON {Broadme1adows).The purpose of this Bill is to carry out the revocation and excision of Crown reservations relating to ten separate parcels of land which were reserved for public purposes at various dates in years gone by. I am sure the Government will be pleased

to learn that the Opposition does not intend to oppose the measure. However, I wish to direct attention to one matter which causes me considerable concern.

In his explanatory second-reading speech, when referring to a particular reserve on Phillip Island which is under the control of the Phillip Island Shire Council as committee of management, the Minister said that the departmental district surveyor also concurred in the granting of the application to excise this land from the original Crown reservation for road purposes. The honorable gentleman went on to say-

..... when he inspected the land towards the end of 1966 he found ·that the earth works of the deviation had already been completed and the surface of the road sheeted with crushed rock.

Later in his speech, the Minister referred to a proposed excision of an area of land which is controlled by the Caulfield City Council as committee of management. In referring to the report of the district surveyor, the Minister stated-

He mentioned in his report of 16th November, 1967, that, at the <time of his inspection, the road works had progressed to the stage where median strips, traffic islands, concrete curb and channelling, and the new road formations had been completed.

In my view the Government is treating Parliament with contempt; it expects Parliament to be merely a rubber stamp although it is dealing with Crown reservations which were set aside years ago for the use of the people. The purpose of this Bill is to excise certain areas from the original reservations, and in each case the reason given is tha t the land is required for road-widening purposes. However, in the two instances to which I have referred the work has already been carried out. Either the Department responsible has treated Parliament with contempt, or the Government has done so because the Minister concerned has allowed his Department to carry out this work. Where will this practice end?

Revocation and Excision of [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Crown Reservations Bill. 527

Only yesterday in this House the actions of a particular Department under the control of a Minister were debated, and the question of Government administration was discussed. I do not know whether the Ministers concerned are aware of what their Departments are doing when plans are made to undertake the sort of work to which I have referred or whether they could not care less and at some future time a departmental officer will inform the Minister that legislation will have to be pa.ssed by Parliament to validate the work.

I am not aware whether the Minister in question has deliberately allowed his Departrrlent to undertake this work, knowing that legislation would be re-quired and being aware that it is the responsibility of Parliament to decide whether it will permit the excision of areas of land from original Crown reservations. In this instance the work has already been done. The Opposition is not at variance with the Government concerning the practical necessity for the work. Its point is that the Government is permitting this sort of practice, and this attitude justifies the attitude adopted by the Opposition yesterday on the exercise of administration by the Government through its Ministers. In my opinion, the Government and particularly the Minister responsible deserve severe criticism for allowing this sort of thing to take place.

I should like to know whether the Minister of Lands took any action on discovering that this work had been carried out by the Department without first obtaining from Parliament legaJ authority to use this land, and whether, if officers were at fault the Mir,tister h~s taken any discipli~ary actIon agamst them. The Minister should inform the House what happened. If no action was taken against the Department why was this so? As I said at the outset, I believe the Government and its Ministers are treating Parliament with contempt when they allow certain works

to take place on Crown land which has been reserved for a particular purpose, without first obtaining the necessary authority from Parliament to excise the land from the original reservation. If the Government is not treating Parliament with contempt, then the Department is.

Honorable members ought to take serious stock of what is taking place in regard to Crown reservations. The areas of land involved in this instance are not great and the original reserva tion is not seriously affected, but the Opposition is concerned with a prinCiple. The Opposition supports the provision of better road conditions, the easing of traffic congestion and the elimination of dangerous intersections which will be effected. However, it is reasonable for the Opposition to assume that if the Government is prepared to condone what has happened in these instances, eventually a major programme will be put into operation affecting a substantial area of Crown land already reserved for a particular purpose in the interests of the people of this State. Perhaps some time in the future, after major works have been completed and the people have lost the use of certain land the Government will introduce validating legislation. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill, but condemns the Government for allowing this sort of practice to take place. I trust that the Minister will inf<?rm the House of any disciplinary actIon that has been taken against the offending Department.

Mr. TREWIN (Benalla).-The Country Party supports this Bill. Its members were very interested in the co'mments of the honorable member for Broadmeadows, who was Justified in expressing his own and his party's views in the manner he did. I feel that Parliament has an obligation to ensure that the various Departments appreciate the circumstances and conditions under which they are to operate. The several excisions which are to be made from Crown land by the Bill are justified,

528 Revocation and Excision of [ASSEMBLY.] Crown Reservations Bill.

but Parliament must always be sure that an area of land which has been set aside for a specific purpose is not taken away from the Crown by a Department or instrumentality, or even private interests.

One area of land covered by the Bill comes particularly to my notice. It is situated at Yea. Like the other areas indicated, this land is to' be used for the purpose of straightening or widening a roadway. I consider that where land is to be used in the interests of general and road safety, we should not complain unduly about the excisions from Crown reserves which are proposed. However, whilst members of the Country Party support the Bill, we warn the Government that Departments should give adequate notice of their intentions to Parliament through the Minister when land is desired for a specific purpose, so that the people concerned will have an opportunity to lodge a complaint if they so desire, and honorable members may examine the proposal before it is implemented.

Mr. BIRRELL CGeelong).-Iwish to refer to the question which was raised, quite properly, by the honorable member for Broadmeadows. Oft.en I have felt that it would be more appropriate for measures revoking and excising Crown land to be introduced twice a year, instead of annually as is the current practice. Perhaps the delay of twelve months or more that is involved is the reason behind the problem raised by the honorable member for Broadmeadows.

Mr. WILTON.-But the work has been done illegally.

Mr. BIRRELL.-I am not querying that or criticizing the honorable member. I am trying to point out some of the reasons.

Mr. WILTON.-You cannot condone an illegal practice.

Mr. BIRRELL.-I am not condoning it ; I am supporting the honorable member for Broadmeadows. I thought I made that quite clear.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-YOU are trying to excuse those concerned, aren't you?

Mr. BIRRELL.-The Deputy Leader of the Country Party may be partly right, but if Bills of this type were brought down twice a year this situation might not occur. This Bill effects the revoca tion of a small piece of land adjacent to the Geelong High School in my electorate. This extension of the school grounds will permit the building of an assembly hall which is essential to the operation of a high school in this age. Without this area of land, the assembly hall could not be built unless major alterations were made to the school-re-siting class-rooms and so on. The school site is rather restricted, and the small piece of land to which I refer is at the northern boundary of the school. At present it is virtually a walk-way between the Eastern Bowling Club and the high school. At one time the area was used as an entrance to the Corio oval when it was used for football, but now it is a park and this small piece of land is not required as a footway. The Government therefore considers it safe to grant this small area to the Education Department for attachment to the Geelong High School area for the purpose I have mentioned.

When the Bill was at the draft stage, I ascertained that my request to have this revocation included in the measure had not progressed sufficiently and that this land might be omitted from the Bill. I informed the Education Department that it was desired to commence building the assembly hall in April or May next and that therefore it was important that the revocation should be included in a Bill to be submitted during the autumn session of 'Parliamente I was informed that only one

Revocation and Excision of [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Crown Reservations Bill. 529

such Bill was introduced each year, and that if the land was not included in the present measure it would have to wait until next year.

Mr. TREWIN.-They still built the assembly hall, didn't they?

Mr. BIRRELL.-No, it has not been built yet. The advisory council of the high school, of which I am a member, hopes to have the money available early in 1969, so that tenders may be called for the erection of the assembly hall. Therefore, it would have been a great disappointment if the revocation had not been included in this Bill.

Mr. WILTON.-A Bill could have been brought in covering the particular piece of land. It is not necessary to wait for a whole series of revocations.

Mr. BIRRELL.-I raised this point with the Education Department and discovered that this has been the practice for many years. Of course, Parliament can do anything really. I am merely pointing out the sort of circumstances in which the deficiency mentioned by the honorable member for Broadmeadows arises. All possible avenues were explored to site the assembly hall within the present boundaries of the high school, which is located in a totally built-up area. It was found that by using two tennis courts and this small piece of land alongside the school it would be possible to erect an assembly hall. I think all honorable members agree that this is a requirement of modern education.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and

committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Revocation of reserva

tions of lands in First and Second Schedules) .

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and Power) .-1 shall direct the attention of the Minister of Lands to the remarks of the honorable member for Broadmeadows. I assure the honorable member that the

Sessio'n 1968.-20

Lands Department is now catching up with these matters much more quickly than it did in the past. Every honorable member will agree that no permanently reserved Crown land should be used for any other purpose without the consent of Parliament. That is the general principle which has been followed for many years. In regard to some a.f these works to which the honorable member for Broadmeadows objected--

Mr. WILTON .-----1 am not objeoting about the work being done.

Mr. BALFOUR.-No; the honorable member objected about the work being done before Parliament had passed the necessary legislation to excise the land for that purpose. In many of these instances the Government has to deal with various municipalities and the Country Roads Board, and in most cases the Lands Department is not jnfa.rmed that this work is to be undertaken. Frequently, technical descriptions of the area oannot be given until the work is completed and surveys have been carried out. That is a.ne reasa.n why Bills of this type are introduced intO' Parliament after the work has been completed. However, as I have said, I shall direct the attention of the Minister of Lands to. the remarks made by the honorable member for Broadmeadows. The general principle that is observed is that no permanently reserved Crown land is used for any purpose other than that for which it is reserved until Parliament indicates that it ,can be used for some other purpO'se.

The clause was agreed to, as were the rema-ining clauses.

Schedules. Mr. RAFFERTY (Glenhuntly).

I wish to refer to. items Na.s. 6 and 7 in the First Schedule and lend my suppO'rt, as the local member for the a.rea, to the p'rovision made in the Bill for the excising O'f these two areas. In my opinion they are essential, and I know that la.cal residents and the muncipal council approve O'f the proposal. Both areas concerned, one of

530 Kew Lands (Grant LASSEMBLY.] Amendment) Bill. .

seven-tenths of a perch and the other of 2 perches, are in Railwayavenue, Caulfield. The purpose of the excision is to give better access for road transport. The areas are alongside the Caulfield Institute of Technology and the bank-up of traffic along Dandenong-road is tremendously heavy and increasing. These small excisions will enable the road to be widened, thereby providing a safer and more satisfactory access for road transport.

The schedules were agreed to.

The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and the report was adopted.

Mr. BALFOUR (Minister for Fuel and PDwer) .~I move-

That this Bill be now read a third time.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).I am not satisfied with the explanation given by the Minister in reply to my criticism of the action taken by the Government in this maUer. He did not indicate that similar action would not occur again. The honorable gentleman offered as an excuse the fact that the Lands Department is catching up on its work. I do not know how lDng <this will take and ,I point out that this is nDt the first Dccasion on which such a practice has been adopted. Some years ago a parcel of land in the City of Footscray was excised from the original reservation, work was started and then legislation was passed to legalize the actions tha t had already been taken. There has been a repeat Qif this performance by the Government over the years and again today. I do nDt accept the Minister's explanatiQin. The Government should assure the House that this practice will cease.

The m'Otion was agreed to, and the Bill was read B: third time.

KEW LANDS (GRANT AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 17) on the ,motion of Sir William McDonald (Minister of Lands) for the seoDnd reading Df this Bill was resumed.

Mr. WILTON (Broadmeadows).The purpose of this Bill is to excise from the Crown grant for Yarra Bend park two parcels of land and to incorporate them in the Crown reservation issued in 1960 to establish the Royal Talbot Colony for Epileptics. It became necessary to issue a Grown grant in 1960 to' establish the Royal Talbot Colony fDr Epileptics on its present ,site because the area of land that this institution occupied at that time at Clayton was required as part of the site for Monash University. When the colony was transferred to its p'resent site it needed access from the BDulevard, which is the roadway that traverses the boundary of the Y.arra Bend park ..

When I read the Minister's explanatDry secDnd-reading speech, to my amazement I found that the honorable gentleman had said-

The northern temporary access strip was situated in the position of the area of 1 rood 10 perches indicated on the plan in the schedule to the Bill.

A study of the plan reveals that this temporary access strip runs across the 'Original Cro'wn reservation of the Yarra Bend park. The IMinister went on to say-

The northern strip has developed on a permanent basis, ,and permanent access to the southern section of the colony site is now considered to be a vital requirement.

Why wa's it not necessary in 1960? How did the Government expect people to get from the BDulevard to the colony and back unless proper access was provided across Yarra Bend park? Here again we have a situatiDn where the Government, through its lackadaisical, could-notcare-less administration, has partly done a job. It provided a Crown reserva'tion Df 58 a'cres to establish the colony but provided no access to the area. The authorities of the day

Kew Lands (Grant [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Amendment) Bill. 531

decided that the DId site was needed for Monash University and the colony would be transferred to' another location. SO' the Government issued a Crown grant to reserve this site for the colony, but it did not appear to give consideration to the question of how people were to get to and from the colony.

Mr. SCANLAN .-How have people been getting in and out 'Of the colony s·ince 1960?

M'r. WILTON.-By going across YalTa Bend park by way ofa temporary accesls, which the Government has now decided-eight years ,laterto m,ake per'manent. If this :action is not taken the colony wHI become isolated. I should think the trustees of the Yarra Bend park would have been within their rights to have objected strongly to giving access across their reservation without the necessary 'legislation being passed by ParHament. Apparently some author'ity saw fit to spend money on bringing th~s te!mpora'ry. access up to a permanent standard and sealed the road. Presumably thi,s authority ailso assumed that the land was its property and that it could do as it liked with it. However, eight years ·later the Government has brought forward a BiB to correct the anomaly. This is another example of the Parliament of this State getting second ,cons'ide·ration from the Government. 1ihe Government adopted the attitude that a BiB could be introduced some time .in the future, but that in the meantime the people concerned could go across the park and do what they liked.

Si'm~'la·r comments apply to the second parcel of ,land dealt w'ith in the BiH ; the 'Object 'is to gtive access to the southern area of the colony. Again, this access is across Yarra Bend park.

Mr. SCANLAN .-How many gates are there ·into the ·colony ,from the Chandler Highway?

Mr. WILTON.~I am sure that ,if the honorable 'member for OakoJeigh inspected the site he would have no

difficulty in finding access, and that he would be impressed with the work that has been done.

Mr. SCANLAN .-Obviously the honorable member for Broadmeadows does not know how many gates lead from the Chandler Highway.

Mr. WILTON.-I am not debating the question whether there are gates to the entrance of the ,colony; I am debating the actions of the Gove,mment in treating Parliament with contempt. I am also critidzing the Government .for -its ·m,aladmin'istration in that it found it necessary to issue a Crown grant to reserve 58 acres of land for the colony dn 1960 'and then did not give a thought to the manner in which access was to be provided to the area.

This is another example of the Goventment's ineptitude; it drifts along from day to day 'and bungles things, but eventually gets around to legalizing illegal actions. Under this policy, people who proceed with the work and expend moneys run a considerable risk of being challenged by 'Other authorities. In this instance, the Government deserves criticism for the manner in which it has acted.

Admittedly, in his second-reading speech the ,Minister mentioned that not all members of the p'ark trust agreed with the excision of the two parcels of land. It is re'asonable ~hat certa:in members should adopt that attitude, because the area adjoins a mental hospital reserve, and it could well be argued that the entrance to it should be extended to the Talbot colony, rather than that a new access should be created through the Yarra Bend park.

The interjections by the hDnorable member for Oakleigh demonstrate that he has not the tiaintest idea Df

the area of land now under discussion. Because the Gpvernm'ent reserved an -area of land for the colony without

532 Agricultural Education [ASSEMBLY.] (Amendment) Bill.

bothering tOo ensure that access would be provided, the proposal in the Bill is perhaps the best that can be done with a bad job. The Opposition therefore accedes to the request of the Government, and supports the Bill.


The Bill was read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages.

AGRICULTURAL EDUCATION (AMENDMENT) BILL.

'fhe debate (adjourned from September 18) Dn the mDtion Df Sir William McDonald (IMinister Df Lands) fDr the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands).-This Bill provides for the repeal of sections 3, 4 and 5 of the Agricultural Educa tion Act because they have become redundant and are merely cluttering up the statute-book. In his secDnd-reading speech, the Minister set out adequate reasons for their repeal. The hDnorable gentleman made it clear not only that they would serve no purpose in the future, but that they were an impediment to the present improved and adequate arrangements. Members of the Opposition are cDmpletely in accord with the desires of the Government in ,this matter, and therefore dO' no~ wish to delay the pa'ssage oif the BIll.

Mr. TREWIN (BenaHa).-Whilst this Bill may appear to' be minor in nature, it affords me,mbers an oppDrtunity to reflect upon what has transpired in past years. Members of the Country Pal'1ty support the measure and, wi1ili Opposition members, believe it is necessary to' keep up to date in our thinking, espeoially on the subject of agricultural educatiDn.

The .original Act was passed in 1919. Previous attempts to' set up a Chair of Agriculture at the University iof MeLbDurne had failed. To confirm and to consolidate the actiDns Df previous yea'rs, the Act prDvided for th~ allocatiDn of a sum Df money to' the university e!ach ye'ar to' enable thO'se

who were interested in the scientific development of agriculture tOo pursue their studies.

It is interesting to read the comments made by members who represented different provinces in the Legislative Council in 1919, when the Driginal Bill was discussed. On 22nd December, 1919, as 'reported at page 3908 of volume 154 Df Hansard, the Honorable W. L. Baillieu said-

There is no one in this Chamber who does not want to develop agriculture to the greatest extent, and for that reason I am sure that the House will heartily support the Bill.

Sir Frank Clarke is reported on the previous page to' have sa.id, inter alia-

This is a Bill to provide sums of money to start a Chair of Agriculture at the University of Melbourne . . . . .

Now the Department of Agriculture finds itself lacking in competent inspectors of stock, dairy farms, and other things.

It is also interesting to" reflect on the manner ;in which so:me people today 'consider that they can determine the livelihO"od O"f those e.mployed in agriculture outside of agricultural science. 'foo many people have iron o're dust in their eyes and oil smears O"n their glasses and on their to"ngues; consequently, the primary producer is pushed intO" the background. Despite this, agriculture and agricultural education will ,continue.

Section 3 of the Act 'P'~ovided that a sum of money would be ,made available annually to' the University of Melbourne to" be applied for the purpDses Df agricultural education and resea~ch in agricultural science. Under section 4, money was provided annually fO"r the purpose of carrying on 'investigations and educational work in 'relation to' irrigation. This money has been apportiDned between three bodies, including the Victorian Plant Research Institute of the Depafltment of Agriculture ~or investigalion-al and educational prDje'cts relating to' irrigation.

Agricultural Education [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 533

Victoria has progressed far since 1919 in relation to irrigation, and today it leads Australia in irrigation projects, research and development. We should all feel proud that the Act passed in 1919 laid the foundation {tor research into water conservation. The Country PaI'lty can claim some praise for what is now considered to be one of the highlights 'Of the State's agricultural development.

Section 5 authorizes the engagement of persons holding degrees in agricultural science to be officers of the Department of Agriculture. For many years, I have lived close to the Dookie Agricultural College and over the past 35 years I have seen and mixed with students who have attended this college. I have followed the careers of many of them with interest, and it is gratifying to know that some of the students who were in residence at Dookie college in the 1930's and 1940's now 'Occupy top positions in agricultural research and agricultural education throughout Australia. Victorian young men have been able to extend their knowledge and make a career after receiving an agricultural education at these colleges.

On the passing of this Bill, one small section relating to the graduate cadetship scheme, which provides the opportunity for persons who desire to make a career in agricultural science to obtain a place at one of the agricultural colleges, will remain. The University of Melbourne has worked in close liaison with the Department of Agriculture through the L'Ongerenong and Dookie colleges, and, although the three sections referred to will be repealed, I feel tha t this liaison will not be affected.

Concern has been expressed that the repeal of these sections may result in some of the best graduates losing the opportunity to fulfil the~r

ambitions to further extend their

studies in agricultural science. Subsection (2) of section 3 of the Agricultural Education Act provides, inter alia-

The conditions on which the said annual payments shall be made are as follows :-

(c) That courses approved by the council of work done at agricultural colleges are recognized for the purpose of fulfilling conditions for obtaining university degrees in ,agricultural science or diplomas of agriculture; and

(d) That, the university shall in each year and from year to year provide places admitting to full courses for degrees or diplomas in agricultural science, and the Minister of Agriculture shall determine the number of free places to be so provided each year and shall nominate persons to occupy such free places.

Some who have obtained free places in the past have made great contI'libutions to agr.iculture. I hope that free places wilrl always be avai,lable.

'f.he Grains Division of the Victorian Farmers' Union raised the question whether the repealing of section 3 wiU preolude diplom,ates from V1ictorian agricultural colleges from being recognized as fulfiHing conditions as they now ,apply for admittance to the University of ,Melbourne to complete a degree in agricultural science. A Leaving Certificate standard i,s required {tor entrance to an agriculturall college. ,Many who attend agdcultur:al colleges desire to continue farming actiVlities and this· raises no problem for them. Others desire to make a career in agriculture ,after obtaining a degree, and they must have some security. The point ,is whether people 'who obtalin free places wilrl be given the same con-sideration as in the past. I ask the Min~ster for Fuel and Power, who is in charge of the Bill, to give the House an assurance that this will be so. Hindrances should not be placed in the way of people who have set out to make careers in agriculture. Once they complete their courses at agr:iculturalcoHeges, they should be eligible to continue their studies at the Univers'ity of Melbourne.

534 Agricultural Education [ASSEMBLY.] '(Amendment) Bill.

It is not often that the House has the opportunity of discussing agricultural education. I take the opportunity of suggesting that, through Us educational scheme, the Department of Agriculture should make opportunities available to women to undertake agricultural science courses. I know that this has occurred in the past. Any girl who undertakes such a course must fifiSt start either at university level or at ·agricultural ,coHege leveol. With pre-knowledge of what is required, a number of places for women could be determined from year to year. This would give them the opportunity to' pursue this very fine career, and would be in the generall interests of agriculture.

U ·must be re'aJ.ized that !agriculture is the most i'mportant of all primary industf1ies in the Commonwealth. When aH Au-stra.Ha's iron ore ,is sold ·and aU its oi:l is taken from unde'r the ground or the sea, 'agflicultural production will continue. Pdmary produce is necessary for the welfare 'Of the people. Iron are and oil ·can be done woithout; at some stage substitutes ,for them wiU be .found.

Dr. JENKINs.-What about a substitute for butter?

Mr. TREWIN.-Butter is made from crea'm, which comes ofr,om mHk. I am sure that if seme honerable members knew what rnargar:ine was made of, they weuld net use it.

. The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr. L. S. Reid).-The henorable member .fet" Benalla should return to' the terms of the BiB.

Mr. TREWIN.-Agricultural Science will determine the future welfare of our cemmunity. It will lead to' cews g,ivling mere milk, and to gre,ater productien e'f other preducts. The very eX)istence' of an educational section in the Department of Agriculture win lead t.o greater preductien ·from the land, and to kn'Owledge which win enable peeple to leave the land in

a fit and proper condition to provide food for the . generations who will come after us. The Country Party supports the Bill.

The metien was agreed to. The BiH was read a second m'me

and committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2 (Repeal of sections 3, 4

·and 5).

Mr. BALFOUR (Ministe'r f.or Fuell and Pewer).-The henorable member for Benalla is cencerned whether the repeal ef secUen 3 of the principal Act could ·mean that people who had completed ceurses at agricultural col'leges would no longer be admitted as . students of agriculture at the Univers'ity of Melbourne. I assure him, and aU other henorable members, that that will not be so. Regulation 111 (a) of the University of Melbeurne Calendar.of 1968-69 Istate,s that any person shaH be el'igible fer admission to' ·any course for ·a degree or diploma in the university jrf he has passed, ,in the pres'cribed manner, examinations 'conducted by the Victorian Universities and Scheols Examinatiens Beard, or has been exempted by the Beard f.rom such exa'minatiens en the ground of hav.ing passed other examinations recogn'ized by the Board as e'qUliv.alent thereto.

At present, the Schee,ls Exalminatiens Board recogn'izes a diploma of Deok:ie or Lengerenong cellege, together with a pass in matriculation English expreslsion at the pubHc examination, as full matriculation, and this right :is net affected by the repeal of section 3 of the Agricultural Educatien Act.

Further, under the unlivers·ity's statute 29, Deokie and Longerenong colleges are recognized by the Technical Colleges Board which can, after inspect,ion ef the colleges, determine that certain subjects of the diplema ceurses at thecol'leges are substantially equivalent to university subjects in the course ·for a degree in agricultural soience. It is dear, therefore, that the 'col,leges, despite the repealing of sections 3, 4 and 5, will

Property Law [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] (Amendment) Bill. 535

retai'n the right to. have their students matriculated ,and granted recognition for the purpose of the university degree course as a result of their passing the course for a Diploma of Agricultural Science at either of the colleges. I trust that this information satisfies the honorable member.

Mr. TREWIN (BenaIla).-I thank the Minister for his explanation, whioh is quite satisfa'ctory. The old coUegians' association, when informed by me of the proposed repealing of those sections of the Act, indicated their concern. I offered to obta,in information TDr them. It 'can be understood that past students are keen to see that their rights are retained and that rights of those who will attend the col/leges ,in future are secure. I ask the Minister to. express 'my thanks to the Director of Agriculture for providing the information which the Minister has given.



PROPERTY LAW (AMENDMENT) BILL.

The debate (adjourned from September 25) on the motion of Mr. G. O. Reid (Attorney-General) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed.

Mr. TURNBULL (Brunswick West) .-This short Bill amends the Property Law Act 1958. It corrects an anomaly and Dvercomes what may be regarded as a professional difficulty relating to wills. Deputy registrars-general, whose functions honorable members well know, are appointed under the Property Law Act by the Governor in Council. Assistant registrars of titles are appointed by the Public Service Board. It is common for the same person to be an assistant registrar of titles and a deputy registrar-general. The object of the Bill is to. ensure that the occupants of the two positions shall be appointed by one authDrity.

In his second-reading speech, the Attorney-General info.rmed the House Df a difficulty in relation to wills lodged in the custody of the RegistrarGeneral. Some 16,000 wills have been lOdged with the Registrar-General, in the main, either by the Repatriation Commissioner or by the records section Df the Army. The AttorneyGeneral stated-

The Law Institute of Victoria has brought to the notice of ,the Government that clients of deceased solicitors, or solicitors who have ceased to practise, sometimes encounter difficulties in recovering wills entrusted to their solicitors for safe custody. Furthermore, retired solicitors or their legal representatives are in a dilemma in providing for custody of wills held on behalf of former clients. The council of the Institute has therefore recommended that appropriate provision should be made in section 14 of the Property Law Act.

Proposed new section 14, as contained in clause 3, has been adequately explained by the Attorney-General. In fact, the honorable gentleman explained it better than he explained the meaning of " imposition " earlier this evening. The Opposition supports the Bill and wishes it a speedy passage.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep-parton) .-The Country Party supports this Bill. Proposed new section 14, as contained in clause 3, which will allow wills to be lodged with the Registrar-General, is good. Frequently, it is difficult to know where to start searching for the will of a deceased person. The provision of some central place in Victoria where wills may be lodged will facilitate the task of finding wills.

The other amendment proposed in the Bill relates to the appointment of assistant registrars of titles. Section 5 of the Property Law Act 1958 enables the Governor in Council to appoint and remove deputy registrarsgeneral. On the other hand, the Transfer of Land Act 1958 provides for the appointment of assistant registrars of titles under the provisions of the Public Service Act. In many cases, the same officer is appointed both as an assistant registrar of titles and as a deputy

536 Budget [ASSEMBLY.] Debate.

registrar-general. It is desirable, therefore, that the method of appointmen t under the two Acts should be uniform. This is a common-sense provision.

I pay a tribute to the Registrar of Titles, the Registrar-General and their deputies for the splendid work they perform. I am sure the people of Victoria do not realize what an efficient Titles Office we have. Although the staff of the Titles Office work under most difficult conditions, the courtesy and efficiency of this branch of the Public Service is worthy of commendation.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time and

committed. Clause 1 was agreed to. Clause 2, relating to the appoint

ment of a registrar-general and deputy registrars-general.

Mr. G. O. REID (AttorneyGeneral) .-1 wish to express appreciation of the co-operation of the honorable member for Brunswick West and the honorable member for Shepparton in expediting the passage of this Bill. I was particularly gratified by the remarks of the honorable member for Shepparton concerning the efficiency and courtesy of the Titles Office staff, who do an extremely good job.

The clause was agreed to, as was the remaining clause.



BUDGET DEBATE. The House, hav'ing gone ,into Com

mjttee of Supply, proceeded to debate the Budget submitted by Sir Henry Bolte (Prem.ier and Treasurer) on September 18.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition).-The Budget speech and the accompanying documents presented to the House by the Treasurer are easily divisible iinto what ,appear

to be two main parts. One is obvious,ly the scope of Government expenditure for the forthcoming year ; the other is an iinteresting account which presumably represents not merely the views of the Treasurer but those of the Government on the whole question of CommonwealthState fiscal re'lationships. On any view of it, whatever can be sa,id about the problems of Com,monwealth-State financial relationships, I doubt whether in any Budget speooh and accompanying documents anywhere else in the Com,monwealth of Australia there has been a descr:iption of the problems involved in those relationships in terms so colourful, abrasive and abusliveas those used by the Treasurer.

Mr. MANSON .-And truthful. Mr. HOLDING.-The Minister of

State Development has interjected that the Budget speech is a truthful account of the Government's view of Commonwealth-State financial relationships. Even conceding the extent of the Treasurer's vocabulary, I acknowledge that on this occasion his descToiptive ter-m's 'were not bad. He described the Prime Minister, and presumably the Federal Treasurer:--

Mr. MEAGHER.-The Commonwea.Jth Treasurer.

Mr. HOLDING.-To be exact in terminology, ,I should say the Treasurer nominated by the Liberal Party which, at the moment, happens to constitute the Commonwealth Government. I turn first to the description by the Liberal Premier of Victoria of his Federal Liberal colleague.

Mr. ROSSITER.-What about Mr. Whitlam's description?

Mr. HOLDING.-lf M'r. Whitlam, Mr. Wyndham, or any other member of the Labor Party had described the Federal Liberal~Country Party coalition Govern'ment iin the same terms as those used by the Treasurer in this Chamber, the Minister of Labour and Industry would have been the first to raise his arms in protest.

Budget [2 OCTOBER, 1968.] Debate. 537

Mr. ROSSITER.-What nonsense! Let us see what Mr. Chamberlain has to say.

Mr. HOLDING.----I rem,ind the Minister of Labour and Industry of ·the terms that his Leader used in describing his Federal colleague. The Treasurer said that the Prime Minister was a 'man who could not keep his word, and at page 5 of h'is Budget speech he referred to the Prime Minister as a 'man who engaged in confidence tri'cks. At page 8, in dealing with the presentation of the aecounts of the Com;monwealth of Australia, the Treasurer aocused him of 'inaccurately presenting financial records. A passage on page 9 of the T'reasurer's Budget sp'eech can only be sum'marized as a deseription ;of ,M'r. Gorton as a stand -over man.

Honorable members interjecting.

M'r. HOLDING.-I do not Imind if members on the Government side of the Chamber wish to apply the descriptions to the Federall Treasurer as well as to the Prime Minister of Australia, but the actual reference in the document is to the Pr-i'me 'Mlinister. It ,is said that the Pdme Minister 'is a man who ·cannot keep his word. If it is the wish of the secretary of the Cabinet to extend the description to the Federal Treasurer, members of the Opposition will adopt it. The Premier and Treasurer has described both Mr. Gorton and Mr. McMahon as gentlemen who, in public life, adopt usurious practices appropriate to money lenders; at page 7 of his Budget speech, the honorable gentleman described their activities as, simply, "plain dishonesty."

Mr. DIXON .-Are you going to contribute to this debate, or merely reiterate the Treasurer's contribution?

Mr. HOLDING.-The pr.oblem of the honorable 'member for St. KHda is that, having academic tr-aining and a university degree, he is not able to use these abusive terms with the same freedom as the Treasurer. We recognize the honorable member's problem. If terms such as those I have mentioned were used by any responsible .

citizen in normal parlance in commercial 'cir,cles among bus,inessmen in this city, one would imagine that the user was describing company hucksters or financial sharks. Terminology such as this is used in relation to people of that type.

Let it therefore be placed on ,record -perhaps this is why 'member'S of the Liberal Party are rather restive -that although in his speech the Treasurer displayed some odd feeling of party loya,lty by using the abstract term "Commonwea,lth ", as if 'the Com1monwealth were some abstract political 'concept, ,everybody, including the Chief Secretary, knows that the Commonwealth is not a political abstraction. 1Ihe poHdes which are operating !in Austr,aUa today at both the national and linternational levels a;re those of the Federal Liberal Party-Country Party coalition Government. They a're policies which, every three years, members of the Government party, on platforms throughout the length and breadth of Victoria, urge people to support.

The real difficulty which faces the State Government is that there is probably no domestlj.c issue in contemporary Australian politics 'at any level that is as iimportant as the question of C om'monweaHh-S tate financial relationships.

Mr. MANSoN.-What would you do about it?

Mr. HOLDING.-I shaH tell the Comm,ittee later. Members of the Government will probably readBy concede that untH the problem of Commonwealth-State financial relationships lis resolved, effective planning ·in 'such eriti'cal areas as education, housing, health, local government and the development of olUr human 'and economic resources-the very quality of the Hfe that 'is led -in this com'munity----cannot be 'carried out at either a national or a State level.

Mr. MANSON.-I agree. Mr. HOLDING.-If we have

achieved nothing else, we have achieved agreement that this is an


issue at the domestic 'level whiohat present transcends all other issues in the Commonwealth.

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-What is your policy on this issue?

Mr. HOLDING.-Let us see what the Government's policy is. For years the Government has operated on the basis of as'certaining the policy of the OPPoslition and then applying it. No matter what v.iew ,is taken of it, the reason that Commonwealth-State financial relationships are in such a mess today-I think it will be agreed that they are~is that at the nat,ional level and at various State levels Liberal Party Governments have held office, ,and on this important domestic issue the Liberal Party is spliit from top to bottom. It is the confusion and inability at the Federal level properly to formulate a policy on CommonwealthState relationships which has caused the substantial deterioration in Federa tion in Australia. If there were any hope of these differences in the Liberal Party being reconciled now or in the immediate future, there might be some hope that the Federal Government would do the sort of thing that the Treasurer complains thai it will not do.

lt is because the Liberal Party of Australia has so -many differing policies on the one issue-which all Government members agree is the most pressing issue on the domestic level in Australia today-that the present financial mess exists. Not one member on the Government side of the Chamber can deny that the financial crisis in Federal-State relationships has resulted from the activities of successive Liberal Governments at Canberra and that those Governments have done more to destroy the Federal system and to impoverish the States than any other Federal Government in history. Not one member on the Government side of the Cha'mber can deny the truth of that allegation. Every time one of them speaks he says something different from the previous speaker.

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-YOU do not expect us all to say the same thing, do you?

Mr. HOLDING.-It would be helpful if members of the Government party could say different things to each other politely, without using the terms of abuse which coloured the Treasurer's Budget speech. The mere fact that the Treasurer made abusive references to his Federal colleagues does not mean that what the Treasurer said is true; it simply supports the point I am making that there are differences in the Liberal Party from top to bottom on this issue.

As I said at the outset, the Budget divides itself into two basic documents. There is the Treasurer's abuse of the Federal Liberal Party Leader and his colleagues, and there are his recommendations, if one can call them such, about the future of this State. I am endeavouring to trace my way through the incredible maze of contradictory statements that emanate from prominent spokesmen of the Liberal Party on this issue. I remind the honorable member for St. Kilda of his interjection, when he asked, " What about the Labor Party?" A prominent member of the Liberal Party has said, "Successive Liberal Governments in Canberra since the war have done more' to destroy the Federal system than the Labor Party ever could." This prominen t spokesman of the Liberal Party, in regard to the derogation in rights of the States, further said, "This has been achieved under the so-called constitution of the so-called Liberal Party. "

Mr. WILTSHIRE.-Whom are you quoting?

Mr. HOLDING.-That statement was made by the honorable member for Dromana. That is his view of the policies being followed Federally by his own so-called Libeml Party.

I think it would also be conceded that on an issue as complex as Federal-State relationships one would not expect major political parties to be able to make major decisions overnight or to provide overnight s'olutions, but it must be conceded that


the Commonwealth Treasurer, Mr. McMahon, has admitted that between 1950 and 1965 the indebtedness of the Commonwealth decreased from $3,730,900,000 to $3,134,000,000 while the indebtedness of the States rose from $2,367,000,000 to $7,090,500,000.

Mr. DIXoN.-That is an understatement.

Mr. HOLDING.-Those are the' figures for the period between 1950 and 1965. In respect of local government, the State's indebtedness increased from $189,000,000 to $820,400,000, and that of semigovernmental authorities from $593,100,000 to $4,532,600,000.

Mr. DIXON .-Do you not agree with the Treasurer that that situation is abhorrent?

Mr. HOLDING.-The Labor Party is on record as stating publicly that when the Com·monwealth provides from revenue portion of the moneys that are borrowed it should not charge interest on such portion. This matter was the subject of considerable discussion almost two years ago by all the State leaders and the Federal leaders of the Labor Party who were concerned at the failure of Liberal Party Governments to formulate a policy. The Labor Party throughout Australia is able to speak with one voice on this issue. We are able to say--

Mr. DIXON .-" Let us remove the States "!

Mr. HOLDING.-The problem confronting the Victorian Government is how to stop some anxious backbenchers from removing some of the Ministers. One would have thought that the Liberal Party of Australia would at least be able to discuss this situation. Perhaps the secret of the Treasurer's abusive descriptions of his Federal colleagues lies in the fact that on the 18th January, 1968, the honorable gentleman announced in the Age newspaper on behalf of the Liberal Party of Australia-I do not think the Treasurer would have made such a statement

without consultation with his colleagues in other States-that a special meeting of Liberal Party leaders would be held in Canberra soon to discuss Commonwealth-State finances. The Treasurer also announced that the Prime Minister, then Senator Gorton, had confirmed that a special meeting would be held. After a record period of bungling, after having p~oduced a crisis in FederalState finances, the Treasurer was able to say that he had even got the new Prime Minister to agree to a special summit meeting. What joy that announcement must have provoked in the hearts of the back-benchers on the Government side-the great new white father, the Prime Minister, was going to come and talk to their own Premier and Treasurer, and between them they would be able to solve this terrible problem. But what happened? The Federal Treasurer, Mr. McMahon, objected, and the new white father of the Liberal Party was not prepared to sully the conference table with his presence at a meeting of State Liberal Party leaders.

Members on the Government side of the Chamber find themselves in a situation where. their own Federal leaders will not even discuss the issue of Commonwealth-State finances with the State leaders. The Premier and Treasurer was left in the embarrassing position of having announced to the press that Mr. Gorton, Mr. Askin and other leaders would attend the meeting. However, the Prime Minister will not even sit round the table and discuss the matter with the Premier of Victoria or any other State leaders. That is why members on the Government side of the Chamber are looking sad and embarrassed, because they have conceded that the subject of Commonwealth-State financial relationships is the greatest single domestic issue in Australia at present. Their own Prime Minister is the man they will slobber over at the next Federal election. He will turn up in electorates represented by members on the Government side of the Chamber. What will happen then?


Those members will do what the Prem'ier and Treasurer did in the Western Province. They will drive through the streets in an open car and they will say of the Pri'me Min'ister, "Here is the man who has all the knowledge. " The LIberals were in some difficulty in the Western Province, but the difficulty of the Government is that the present crisis has been produced by successive Federal Liberal Governments at Canberra. Yet every honorable member opposite has worked for these Governments.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Whose breach of faith created the crisis in the first place?

Mr. HOLDING.-I will adopt the statement of the honorable member for Dromana, who said-

Successive Liberal Governments since the war have done more to destroy the Federal system than the Labor Party ever did.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Who made the promises?

Mr. HOLDING.-The Minister .of Housing wants to talk about promises when the Prime Minister will not even talk to his Leader or honour a Liberal Party discussion with his presence. That is the state of the great Liberal Party today. That is why there is a crisis in this State concerning financial relations with the Commonwealth.

Mr. MEAGHER.-Whose side are you on?

Mr. HOLDING.-I am on the side of the people of Victoria, who realize what is best for them and will put the Federal Liberal Government and this Government out of office as soon as they can. That is the solution to: the problem. The Minister of Housing is a little upset and I can understand why. One can imagine the honorable gentleman's embarrassment. He is a member of a party which, in Victoria, cannot claim any more than 36 per cent. of the votes in its own right. The Liberal Party is divided from top to bottom on what its Inembers consider is the major issue in Australian domestic politics. The Federal Leader will not talk to

the State Leader, who made a Budget speech full of abusive references. Has there ever previously been an Administration in the history of the Commonwealth as bankrupt as the present Government? Has there ever been a Budget speech in the previous history of Victoria which has contained the sort of references that the recent Budget speech of the Victorian Treasurer contains about the Federal Prime Minister and Treasurer?

Mr. MEAGHER.-Were they justified?

Mr. HOLDING.-There are many things I want to say about the Federal coalition Government. Whenever we or our Federal colleagues in Canberra say these things, Liberal members say they are not justified. All we want of Government members is for them to be consistent. The real problem is that they have not a policy and the Government is trying to cling to office, moving desperately from one situation to another, trying to stave off one crisis after another. It is impossible to extract from the Federal Liberal Party or the State Liberal Party any coherent plan for the Commonwealth of Australia or the State of Victoria.

It is beyond argument, and I think it is conceded not merely by the Opposition but by any person who studies the situation in Australia, that not only Victoria but all the States are being continually squeezed by the Commonwealth. Let us consider the matter on a national basis; this is not only a Victorian problem. What has occurred over recent years? The entry of the Commonwealth into new fields on an ad hoc basis is a typical approach of Liberal Governments. For instance, they enter the sphere of education and they leave it to immediate pressures to determine the extent of their involvement. They move from one set of circumstances to another. The Federal Government's behaviour is characterized by its movement into Sta te fields on a largely ad hoc basis. Then that Government has found itself with a minority


share of responsibility in a situation in which it is fiscally involved. The intent of the Federal involvement, no matter how minor, has been to obscure the way in which it has clamped down in recent years on the growth of State spending.

In 1966-67, the revenue returned to the States was 9.7 per cent. higher than for the previous year. Last year the increase was down to 9.5 per cent., and this financial year it is estimated that it will be only 6.4 per cent. Capital grants, loan co~cil borrowings for works and housmg plus specific purpose payments have shown a declining growth in the same years from 6.75 per cent to 4.9 per cent., which means in money tern;s an increase of only $65,000,000 In three years. This year, .the national income is expected to rIse by 9 per cent. in money terms, Federal Budget receipts by 10.5 per cent., Federal expenditure by 8.3 per cent., and advances and payments to the States by 6.7 per cent. On any view, these figures show that, as a result of the attitude of the Federal Liberal Government, Federalism is being grossly distorted.

Mr. MEAGHER.-We say that it is being destroyed.

Mr. HOLDING.-I am not quite certain what the Federal Government or the Victorian Government says on this issue because neither can make up its mind. I put this to the Minister of Housing: If one is an earnest, conscientious, hard-working supporter of the Liberal Party in the State of Victoria what policy does one support' on Federal-State financial relations-the policy of the Treasurer and Minister of Housing, or the policy of Mr. McMahon and Mr. Gorton?

Mr. MEAGHER.-It ought to be obvious to you by now.

Mr. HOLDING.-Is the Minister saying that he does not support the policy of Mr. McMahon and Mr. Gorton?

Mr. MEAGHER.-Not in this field.

Mr. HOLDING.-And the Minister would advise an earnest Liberal Party supporter to vote against those Federal Liberal policies?

Mr. MEAGHER.-I did not say that. Mr. HOLDING.-The Minister is

full of principle until it comes to the punch.

Mr. MEAGHER.-I would advise him to consider the horrible alternative.

Mr. HOLDING.-Undoubtedly Federalism is being grossly distorted when the Federal Government endeavours to dictate the standard of performance of State Governments, especially as that standard relates to the provision of services which bear most directly on the daily lives of the people. Of course, one aspect ~f this squeeze is that the States are m fact financing some of the more doubtful aspects of Federal Liberal Government policy. The States are financing the fiasco of the F .111 aircraft, the V.J.P. exercise, and the Vietnam enterprise. The problem of honorable members on the Government side of the House is that they are prepared to support the policies of th~ir Federal colleag~es, but these poliCIes are very expensIve, and those honorable members are not prepared to go along with their Federal colleagues when they want to put pressure on the States to finance the very policies they have supported at the Federal level. That is the dilemma of this Government and the dilemma of the Liberal Party.

Mr. ROSSITER.-What about the dilemma of the alternative? Let us hear about Wyndham, Calwell and Cairns.

Mr. HOLDING.-The Minister of Labour and Industry is roaring like a stuck bull because he has and is prepared to hawk himself around Victoria supporting the Federal Government when it wants to buy the F .111 aircraft, supporting its Vietnam enterprise and the V.I.P. aircraft scandal. I shall not say the honorable gentleman supports hi~ son-in-law, who can look after hImself, but I shall say this: How can the Minister

542 Budget [ASSEMBLY.] Debate ..

support the financing of the F .111 aircraft and these other aspects of Federal policy if they cannot be financed? The Gorton Government has been able to pay for these disastrous policies only by bleeding the States, as the honorable gentleman is aware. That is the way the Federal Liberal Government is financing its disastrous foreign and domestic policies. These are the policies that the Ministers in the Victorian Government support, but having supported them they ·are not prepared to pay for them, and Mr. Gorton has to take the money from where he can get it, so he takes it from the States.

The average Victorian citizen is fed up with the continual brawling over Government responsibilities that goes on between our Treasurer and his Federal Liberal colleagues. The public is fed up with the annual pantomime that goes on every time there is a Premiers' meeting with Mr. Gorton and Mr. McMahon, and fed up with the Premier and Treasurer promising to have big summit conferences which do not take place.

The inevitable result of this situation is that on both a Federal and State level many governmental functions are not being properly discharged. That is the one tragic result, and Victorian citizens are entitled to complain about it. I do not believe we can tum the clock back in these matters. It is not possible in such situations. Is it seriously suggested tha t in the Commonwealth of Australia there is not a national involvement in education? Is it suggested that the Commonwealth has not some responsibility in this field? I do not contend that it has a complete responsibility. Is it suggested that in the Commonwealth of Australia there is not a national involvement in housing, in transport, in health, and in the development of our human and economic resources?

Mr. Holding.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-Y;OU are contradicting yourself now.

Mr. HOIJDING.---"I remind the Deputy Leader of the Country Party that his party, which clai'ms to represent the country, says that it will never formulate a policy for country areas. Members of the Liberal Party find themselves in the position where they cannot agree on a policy for country areas. Leaders of the Country Party say publicly that they have not a policy for country areas, and that they will never have one. If there is to be proper advancement in Victoria and in the Commonwealth of Australia, it is necessary for a policy of joint responsibility ,and plann'ing to be in existence at both national and State levels, particularly in regard to major issues. I shall take as a simple example the development of Victoria's oil and natural gas resources, which is of tremendous importance to Victoria. Does anyone suggest that they are not equally of national importance?

Mr. MEAGHER.-What has this to do with the argument?

Mr. HOLDING.-4t is time that members of the Government started to realize that apart from being Victorians they are also Australians, and that their responsibility at the national level is no less than that of any of our Parliamentary colleagues in Canberra. I do not concede, as a member of the State Parliament in Victoria, that my responsibilities to the nation are any less because I happen to serve in my present capacity. The real problem confronting the Minister of Labour and Industry is that he m,ight be faced with the dilemma whereby none of the back-bench members of the Government party will speak during this debate and he might have to make a speech on the Budget.

Surely in this situation it is more important to the people of Victoria and Australia to know that the powers of Parliament are being well exercised in the in terestsof the State


and the Commonwealth than for ,them to know whether the Com-monwealth or the State exercises certain functions or powers. Wherever one 'looks in regard to education, housing or transport, one finds that the failure of the Federal Ltberal Goventment to plan effectively and the failure of the State Liberal Government to plan at all is affecting the quality 'Of life that is led by every oitizen :in t.his community.

Mr. M'EAGHER,-Do you think that should be altered?

Mr. HOLDING.-I believe the time has come for this situation to be altered, and the only way in which it can be altered is to remove both the present Federal and State Governments.

Mr. MEAGHER.-What are the al terna tives?

Mr. HOLDING.-There are a number of alternatives. Even without an election it is only a matter of time before some of the witless IV1inisters of this Government are sacked by the Premier and Treasurer and replaced by some of the half-witted members on the back bench. The knives are out. Not one Minister in the Cabinet is walking around without armoured plate 'On his back.

Any objective examination of Federal-State financial relations must lead one irretrievably to the conclusion that at the national level the Federal Liberal Government cannot and never will solve these problems. It is equally true to say that if one looks at the second aspect of this Budget speech and the proposals made by the Treasurer for the development of Victoria in the next twelve months, one is led irretrievably to the conclusion that this Government does not care about planning for the future of this State. When one looks at the proposals contained in the Budget one realizes that it is a disappointing document. At a time when this State should be looking forward to tremendous economic development the Treasurer introduces a " stay-put" Budget; it shows no

attempt to plan for the provision of Government services. At no level in the Budget is it possible to extract any meaningful or realistic plans for development to meet the growth and expansion of Victoria. The Budget merely consists of a series of ad hoc proposals unrelated to any planning or statement of priority in any aspects of the multifarious ac-tivities of the State. i}t is beyond argument that both the human and economic resources of Victoria have to be planned for in the future, and that the Government has to be prepared to accept the responsibilities that rest on any Government that finds itsel.f in an economic situation similar to that which exists at present.

Let us examine the Budget and take first of all the major prop'Osal that it contains-the abolition of land tax on primary producers. If there is a case for the abolition of land tax -I believe there is-what is the economic reasoning that lay behind the Treasurer's decision on this occasion? The reason, to the extent that ,any reason was given, is :found on page 4 of the Budget speech, where the Treasurer said that the effect of the drought on the economy of Victoria was the substantive case for the abolition of land tax on primary producers. That is an argument, but does it mean that when primary producers have recovered from the effects of the drought-we hope that will be soon-land tax will be reimposed?

Mr. B. J. BVANS.-Not if we can help it.

Mr. HOLDING.-No, but surely the farming community is entitled to know whether this tax will be reimposed.

Mr. BIRRELL.-I think you can forecast that it will not be.

Mr. HOLDING.-The honorable member 'for Geelong knows that the Government moves from pressure to pressure with a series of ad hoc proposals and therefore it is impossible to forecast anything it may do. I


shall examine some of the forecasts made by the Victorian Treasurer, who has put up a remarkable per-formance in this regard. On 21 st March of this year he told the people of Victoria that as a result of the drought State revenues had declined by $8,000,000. Therefore, a farmer, a businessman or a person engaged in secondary industry would be entitled to say that the Treasurer, who was in a position to know, had said that a difficult time lay ahead because State revenues were down by $8,000,000.

Imagine their consternation when on the 25th March-only four days later-in one of his lighter moods the Treasurer was reported in the Herald as having said that Victoria did not depend on farms and that the drought was not crippling the State. He also said that the drought had had very little effect on Victoria's industry and commerce. One can see the honorable gentleman puffing out his chest, whilst the other Ministers clap their hands, and going on to say that this proves that the State now has a balanced economy. When the Premier and Treasurer says that Victoria is no longer sDlely dependent on the man on the land, one can see honorable members off the 'corner party l'Ook1ng over his, shoulder. The Treasurer made those statements four days after he said that State revenues had dropped by $8,000,000. The problem of the honorable member for St. Kilda, who has just interjected, is that, like the Ministers, he does nO't know what the Premier will say next. He can make a speech in support of the Prime Minister and Mr. MoMahon and say that they are the greatest financial geniuses in Australia.

Mr. WILKEs.----,After him.

Mr. HOL!DI'NG.-I aocept the correction by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and I apologize to the honorable member for St. Kilda. After the honorable member, the Prime Minister and Mr. Mc:Mahon are the greatest financial geniuses in Australia; then in Parliament he hears

them described as a couple of hucksters. If one were the honorable member for St. Kilda and, like the Minister of Labour and 'Industry and the secretary of the Cabinet, one were relying on the pearls of wisdom that the Premier occasionally drops before the swine--

Mr. ROSSITER.---JMr. Chairman, is the Leader of the Opposition quoting from the Bible?

Mr. HOLDING.----'I accept the rebuke Df the Minister; if I were quoting from the Bible, he would be unable to understand what I was saying. The difficulty for Government members is that on the 21st March the Premier and Treasurer said that this State was in economic difficulty and that State revenues must drop by $8,000,000. During the Western Province by-election campaign the honorable gentleman told everyone that the drought was not crippling the State, and that the economy had never been better. The Treasurer said that the drought had had very little effect on Victoria's industry and commerce.

There'fore, the Minister of Labour and Industry and the " Minister" fOor St. Kilda say that the drought has had very little effect on the economy of Victoria because the Treasurer knows about it, and that is what he has said. However, in this Chamber they hear a Budget speech in which the Treasurer says that because of the effects of the drought the Government will a!boHsh land tax Dn farms.

Mr. B. J. EVANs.--Don't you agree with that?

'Mr. HOLDING.~If land tax is to be abolished because Df the effects of the drought, obviously the Govern:ment jntends to' provide a finan,cial bene,fit to those se'ctions of the community which have been hit hardest by the drDught. If that is the basis of the poli,cy, there can be no. OobjectiOon. However, let the ibenefit be equal. it will not be equal because the Collins-street farmer who operates a ·farm fDr no reason other than to reduce his income ·tax will receive


exactly the same measure of assistance as the sm'all If.armer who has been brought to. the verge of bankruptcy by the drought.

Mr. DIXON.-HQow would you differentiate between the two? '

Mr. IHOIJD[NG.----I 'should have thought that there were a number of ways in which to differentiate. Equally bound up in the situation are the m'any small secondary industries in country towns which have been adversely affected. If Government policy is to pro.v:ide a benefit to those sections of the -com,munity that were adversely economically 'affected by the drought, it should be imple.mented on that basis. There 'are major regional centres which are still be:ing affected, but drought relief is cutting out.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-It has been cut out.

Mr. HOlJDING.-Why should the Opposition be prepared to fall over backwards and sing hallelujahs tOo the Treasurer who says he is abolishing land tax to assist one section which has been affected? Many sections of the community in every regional centre of -Victoria have suffered from the drought.

Mr. B. J. EVANs.---We have to be thankful for small mercies from this Government.

Mr. HOL'DING.-That is a matter for the honorable member. The Opposition believes that this handout ought to go to many other avenues, and particularly to the small farmers ,who were hurt by the drought. They are not doing as Iwell ,as 'Esso-B.B.P. because, in the same Budget, whilst the Treasurer has distributed largesse ad hoc because of various pressures in thecomlmunity---u agree he is under some pressure from Esso-B.H.P. -page 7 of the Budget speech indicates that the Government intends to spend $3,500,000 to construct a jetty at Westernport Bay for the exclusive use of Esso-B.:H.P.

Session 1968.-21

Mr. STEPHEN .-What interest is to be paid on that amount?

Mr. HOLDING.-The honorable member for Ballaarat South saw fit recently to state that the Government could not afford to run a public transport system in his electorate, yet he will raise his hand to give $3,500,000 for the building of a jetty at Westernport Bay for the exclusive use of Esso-B.H.P. That is the honorable member's record. lif he looked after his consNtuentsas 'well as the Treasurer looks after this big com'bine, they would be better served in this Parliament.

Esso-B.H.P., on its own estimates of proven production capacity, at a payment olf $3 per barrel, in 1970 will be receiving $262,800,000 a year gross income. That does nQot take into account the most recent discovery. If this oompany has that sort of money tOo play around with, I should Hke to know-and I hope the Deputy Leader Qof the Country :Party would like to. know-on -what basis the revenues of this State should be used to build jetties for the exclusive use of the company. An amount of $3,500,000 will be spent at Westernport, but drought relief is to be cut out.

On what basis is there a value judgment that that, money should flow to the benefit of EssoB.H.P.? In effect, it is a direct subsidy. It might be fair enough to develQop port facilities at Westernport Bay, but to develop them for the exclusive use of Esso-B.H.P. is another matter. On what basis is the' company's priority higher than the priorities for education, housing drQought relief, or t'0 foster decentral:i: zation in Victoria?

The Treasurer's Budget speech als() refers to country water supply. Last summer, as a result of the Government's policies, people in Melbourne were faced with the problem of whether to drink Water, to wash in it, or t? do bo~h. When many people are stIll walkmg around Melbourne with "bucket backs" and other injuries, it is amazing to find that the Budget documents ignore the future

. Budget [ASSEMBLY.] Debate .

. of lVlelbourne's water supply. This is not news to the Minister of Labour and Industry, who has all sorts of

: other injuries in other places.

Mr. RossITER.~aused by a war. Mr. HOIJDING.-The M'inister said

it. Melbourne will be confronted with further water restrictions next summer.

Mr. STEPHEN.-YOU hope.

Mr. HOLDING.-No. Is any member of the Government prepared to say that this Budget will prevent water restrictions from being imposed in Melbourne next year? The problems of Melbourne's water supply have not been mentioned.

The Treasurer's introductory .remarks O'n housing indicate that ,all .is well. J:f the honorable gentleman ,had bothered to make inquiries he would know that considerable disquiet

.' and concern exist in Ute building industry because of the further increase in the deposit gap resulting from increased land prices.

The Budget ought to provide for planning of the activities of the Government for the ensuing twelve months, but there is no mention of the " forgotten" Victorians-the 13,000 Melbourne metropolitan families with 40,000 children living in poverty. That figure is not provided by the Government because it takes no interest in this problem.

For a considerable time, the Chief , Secretary has been responsible for social welfare, but he has been un,able to produce figures on this matter to the House. The only figures on the

,'extent of poverty in Melbourne that . are available to any member of this institution are provided by private 'organizations. The Institute of Economic Research at the University of Melbourne has recently issued a

. return in which it drew a poverty line of $33 per week, based on a family 'unit of a man, a wife and two children. 'Because of the limitation of its resources, the institute could extend its survey only to families in the metropolitan area. Even so, the report

indicates that there are 13,000 families and 40,000 children existing on the poverty line in that area. The Treasurer has a complacent Vliew of the world and he would be ups'et ,at the thought that poverty existed in Victoria. He finds it easier not to think about it, ,and talks about Utopia. Even with the sort of information J have mentioned available to it, the Government, in its Budget documents, nowhere refers. to any plan to solve the problems of these people.

Unfortunately, this attitude is typic all of the Government. J.f thli'S Budget debate follows the Hnes of previous Budget debates, Government supporters will say, "Of 'course it is a good Budget". Tn fairness to them, I point out that J believe they wiU say that bec'ause it represents their view of the role of government in society. They have never seen that role as anything other than that the Government shO'uld provide a minimum of public faciHties in an economy devoid of planning.

Mr. BIRRELL.-To the tune of $600,000,000.

Mr. HOLDING.-Government supporters such as the honorable 'member for Geelong will not jOlin tissue on any Q1f the points raised by the Opposition tonight. As always, they wiH be unable to' point to any aspect of the Budget as be:ing part of a longte~m, c'Oherent POilicy fO'r development in any field in Vktoria. They believe, as a matter of philosophy, that the 'GO'vernment has no role ,in that 10~g-tel'lIIl develO'pment-that lit must be left to' private enterprise. They believe that all the Government must do is provide minimum facUities so that services do not break down. The reatl problem is that GO'vernment supporters believe ,it lis a matter of no moment that the structures and patterns of Government services lag behind those of private enterprise.

Last night, the House was presented with a perfect example of this philosophy. When the Corn'mittee of Public Accounts had pointed to gross


deficiencies in the Public Works Department, it was no 'accident that the defence of the Minister of Public Works was to point out all the gross deficiencies in every other Depa'rtmente He suggested that the PubHc Works Department had got into trouble because its client Departments could not plan. He said that his Department was planning a mental hospital when the Mental Health Authority changed its mind. What sort 'Of planning is that?

The cause of the present situation in tile Public Works Department ,is that the Government has been wiHing to muddle along for years with second and third-rate services, because it does not understand the role of government -in ,the community. Fundamentally, it believes that the function of government ,is s,imply to drag 'along behind private enterprise. Any director of a pubHc or a private company faced with a report such as that relating to the Publ,ic W'Orks Department would have resIgned or been sacked. However, no matter how gross the deficiency, no matter what the level of incompetence, the Government fobs off what is said about it. Its attitude is summ,ed up by the statement of the Treasurer, "We are all hum'an; we all make mistakes. We :make a few more than some other people".

Mr. SCANLAN (O~leigh).-I raise a point of order, Mr. Chairman. It is obvious from what the Leader of the OPPos,ition has said that he is dragging out his Budget speech by referring to--

Mr. HOLDING.-What is the point of 'Oroer?

,Mr. SCANLAN.-The point of order :is that the Leader of the Opposition is wasting the time of the Committee by referring to :matters which have been discussed previously. Mr. Chairman, I draw your attention to Standing Order No. 87, and I ask for your ruling.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. L. S. Reid).It is for the Chairman to decide whether the Leader of the Opposition is wasting the ti'me of the CommIttee. There is no point of order.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Oppos'ition).-I need not labour the point; it was well and truly made last night.

Mr. SCANLAN (Oakleigh).-I again raise a point of order, Mr. Chairman. 1 ask you to rule whether or not the Leader of the Opposition 'is in 'Order in referring to a debate which took place as recently as last night. I have suggested that he is wasting the ti1me of the Committee.

The CHAIRMAN ('Mr. L. S. Reid).I have 'already gi,ven 'my ruling that the Leader of the 0pposiition ds lin order.

Mr. HOLDING (Leader of the Opposition) .-1 do not wish to reiterate the points made last night. Part of the probIe'm facing Vdctoda is that the Government is not prepared to apply, at any levell, the techniques and concepts of modern organization to the role of government. Its concept of government Jis demonstrated by the Budget documents. Apart from expressing an attitude on the whole question of Federal-State financial relationships, those documents represent nothing but a series of ad hoc proposals. There is no suggestion in the docu-. ments of any coherent plan for the development of the State. There is no suggestion that anything the Government proposes to do in the current financial year is part of a programme, for the next four or five years, to develop key areas of government activity. This must be a matter of regret to all honorable members.

The vast untold wealth of the State and the capacity of its people should provide every Victorian with a future filled with promise. That promise can never be fulfilled by a Government which, in its Budget papers, in no way reflects the hopes and aspirations of the Victorian people and their demand for the


development of the State's economic and human resources. The Budget reflects nothing more than ad hoc promises ; it is designed to meet the immediate pressures of the day. The Budget reflects the total failure of the Liberal Party at a Federal level and its creation of a major crisis in the field of Commonwealth-State relations, as well as the total failure of the Victorian Government to. plan effectively and well for the future of the people of the State.

Mr. TAYLOR (Balwyn).-I return to a discussion of the Victorian Budget. In his speech, the Leader of the Opposition spent more than twothirds of his time in criticizing the Federal Government. The only accusation he levelled against the Victorian Government was that it put Victoria first. I do not see how the F .111 concerns Victoria. In particular, it does not concern the Victorian Government. In looking after the interests of Victorians, Government supporters are doing their duty as good Australians as well as good Victorians.

My friends of the Opposition have been so. busy looking at splits and schisms and all sorts of obstacles within their own party that they are now looking for them in the Liberal Party, but none exists. I wonder what has happened during the many nights of the long knives in the Labor Party. Perhaps this is a subject which could well be le~t alone. The fact that the Leader of the Oppo.sition made no critiic'ism of the priorities of the Victorian Budget indicates that there is very little to. criticize.

I wish to speak about Parliament and, in particular, about Parliamentary committees. All honorable members will agree that the members of Parliamentary committees work hard. Basically, the members of these committees are objective and impartial and report only on the evidence put before them. When a Parliamentary committee reports on one Department, it is not necessarily

directing its remarks to that Department only; they may be meant for other Departments as well. Other Departments may well look to their own organizations.

I wish to correct one or two misconceptions on a number of aspects recently mentioned in relation to committee reports. Some criticism was made of the Committee of Public Accounts and its recommendations with respect to the forward-looking planning of the Treasury. The committee is well aware that the Treasury has a three-year forward look, and it approves of that. This is very good planning on financial matters. But the committee's recommendation related to forward-looking planning within the Public Works Department. This is a matter on which the Department needs a great deal 'Of help and co-operation. The head of the Public Works Department has informed me that generally his Department has only the detailed plan that is applicable for twelve months, and that quite recently, for the first time, it was given a plan that enabled it to plan for the next eighteen months. That explains what the Committee of Public Accounts was trying to rec'Ommend in 'Order to :assist the Public Works Department.

It should be appreciated that Parliamentary co.mmittees do. not necessarily table evidence that is submitted to them. The reason for this is that they must protect those who tender evidence. Many of the witnesses who appear before a committee are frank and open 'on the subjects they discuss. It is reasonable therefore that a committee should not make public the names of witnesses and the details of their evidence. This policy is in the interest of the efficiency of the Departments. I feel, too, that as the reports of committees are based on evidence, they must be factual. The real problem regarding the efficiency of Departments is the fact that Ministers are given only certain powers which vary from Depqrtment to


Department and fram ~i~ister to' Minister. In same cases, Mmisters are given nO' pawer within their Departments under the relevant Acts.

Mr. CLAREY.-The Gavernment shauld amend .the Acts.

Mr. TA YLOR.-I wauld recommend that all Acts shauld be examined and a decisian made regarding unifarmity af the pawers given to' 'Ministers under variaus enactments. The pawer given to' heads of Departments is very limited. An examinatian af the PublIc Service Act will reveal that this power is very limited indeed. I do nat wish to' bare the Cammittee by quating the variaus Acts, but sectian 24 aif the Public Service Act pravides, inter alia-

Subject to this Act the permanent head of a Department shall be responsible for its general working and for the t:ran~actlOn of ,the business thereof and shall advIse t~e Minister administering the Department In all matters .relating to the Department. Fram an examinatian af all Acts, it would appear that legall~ the r~al pawer lies with the PublIc ServIce Baard.

Mr. RaSSITER.-It is a pity that this was nat stated last night.

Mr. T A YLOR.-I agree with the Minister af Labaur and Industry. Subsections (2), (3), and (4) of sectian 5 of Part ,I. of the Public Service Act set aut the variaus functians af the Baard to' which the Attarney-General referred last night. The functians include the power and responsihility t'O devise means far promoting efficiency in the warking of Departments by impraved arganizatian and pracedure closer supervisian, simpHficatian at' wark and ca-ordinatian of the wark 0'1£ the variaus Departments. A number of ather functions af the Baard are listed in section 5, fram which it is apparent that the real responsibility for efficiency in Gavernment Departments lies with the Public Service Board.

Mr. R. S. L. McDoNALD.-The Baard has nat carried aut thase functians.

Mr. T A YLOR.-I have reasan to' believe that the Public Service Baard has never laaked at a Department

fram this paint of view. On ane acc~sian, a questian was asked o~ the chaIrman of the Public ServIce Baard cancerning this matter and he replied, "We have never been invited to' dO' it ". When he was asked why he did nat accept his respansibilities under the Act he replied that he wauld nat dare d~ S'O and that the Baard did nat interpret the Act in this way. The Act is simple; it is expressed In plain, straightfarward English, as the hanorable member for Albert Park will agree; and there is nO' doubt cancerning its intentions.

The Gavernment shauld have a careful loak at the respansibilities given by various Acts to Ministers, heads of Departments and the Public Service Baard. It might be for the greater efficiency of the Government service as a whale and the interests af -this Parliament if there were a madern reappraisal af the responsibilities of the respective authorities. If this were carried aut I shauld hape that we wauld not have arguments such as thase vaiced in this Chamber yesterday, many af which were nat properly based.

The Cammittee of Public Accaunts did nat attack the Minister af Public Warks cancerning this problem because it appreciated the depth af the prablem. The cammittee is comprised of me'mbe~s af all ~arties. iI!l making an appraIsal af thIS ty~e, It is necessary to' be campletely faIr. If the Minister was wrang, the Cammittee af Public Accounts would have said so, but iii could nat in justice blame the Minister, nor cauld it blame the head of the Departmen t-a new appaintee whO' made an appreciation of the situatian and was doing his best under some difficulty to dO' something abaut it. He was nat receiving campleteco-operatian fram those whO' had authority to' caaperate with him. That is. w~y in desperatian he faught to' brmg In public administratian management cansultants with the abject af abtaining a repart cancerning his Department. The Committee af Public Accaunts which at that time was


looking at the Department, strongly supported the Minister and the head of the Department in this regard. The result was that a sort of restricted approval was given for this investigation to be undertaken.

'Mr. LOVEGRovE.-Why did not the Organization and Methods Section of the PubHc Service Boar:d do the job?

Mr. ~A YLOR . ......JI shall come to that aspect. The Committee of Public Accounts strongly supported this recommendation and ,made it well known that it did so. A problem arises because the Organization and Methods Section of the Public Service Board has not been developed to a standard which could be ·accepted as being worth while. There should be an Organization and Methods Section which regularly goes from Department to Department examining and supervising work and organization and all the other problems and factors that exist within Dep·artments. These problems have increased considerably from the period when there was an increase in the wealth of the community to the present situation of great affluence. Unfortunately, the Departments have not grown to the same extent, nor have they received the help that they needed. Much of the responsibility has been left to the Public Service Board which is doing nothing about it. Dealing with appointments and salaries has become traditional with the Board, and it has left these difficult aspects alone.

The Organiza tion and Methods Section of the Public Service Board should be developed strongly with competent people who are able officially Ito look at this problem within the Departments. As subsidiaries to the Organization and Methods Section of the Public Service Board, there could be small organization and methods sections in every Department which would have the day-to-day task of examining their own problems and consulting with the larger Organization and Methods Section of the Public Service Board. Between them, these sections should attain a high degree

of efficiency; this is the only way by which the problems can be overcome. This matter should have immediate priority so that the existing situation, which does not apply to only one Departm~nt, could be straightened out. Every Department needs a similar investigation. I hope the Government will give serious considera tion to this question.

IIf the Organiz·ation and Methods Section could get down to serious work in the Departments, it would prove worth while and would be helpful both to heads of Depaltments and to Ministers. Perhaps the Government, in its wisdom, could look at this question and, instead of vesting so much power to the Public Service Board, it might consider giving more power to heads of Departments. An examination of the legislation reveals that the powers of heads of Departments are restricted: they do not always have administrative control of their own' Departments. In justice and fairness to all concerned, I hope this matter will be sorted out. Parliament is anxious that the departments should work efficiently and it wishes to do all it can to help them in this regard.

As chairman of the board of management of an old people's home, I have experienced a tremendous problem in obtaining hospital accommodation for elderly people, particularly terminal and chronic cases. A worrying situation exists which creates much hard work and concern for people who are working for the community in a voluntary capacity.

Mr. WILKES.-There is little or no relief for these people in the Budget.

Mr. TAYLOR.-That is so. Unfortunately, part of the problem lies with the Commonwealth Government, which has publicly stated that it accepts responsibility under its social services scheme for elderly people.

Unfortunately, the Commonwealth is not accepting its' responsibility in this regard, with the result that an unjust burden is thrown on the State. Because the Commonwealth avoids or


evades its responsibility in this regard, it costs the State a total sum of $24,000,000 a year, which is big money. A good deal of this expenditure relates to elderly people in mental hospitals. Unfortunately, the Commonwealth Government denies social service benefits to patients in mental hospitals and leaves the task of caring for them to the State.

Dr. JENKINS.-Do you believe that mental hospitals are good places fDr elderly people of the type you have in mind?

Mr. TAYLOR.-No. There are many problems involved in this question, and I come into close contact with them. It is time that the Commonwealth Government accepted the responsibility that it claims to have in this field. If it relieved Victoria to the extent of $24,000,000 a year, which is the amount that Victoria spends on elderly people, it would greatly assist the State.

Finally, I wish to refer to motor car accidents and resultant deaths. I refer specifically to' the time that elapses before assistance can be ren-dered to persons who are injured in accidents and before they can be taken by ambulance to hospital. These people get Dnly elementary treatment, but if effident treatment were available Dn the spot many Df

them wbuld survive. Mr. TURNBULL.-There are not

enDugh police. 'Mr. 'I1A YLOR.---II am dealing only

with a medical problem. A small team of doctors and nurses -could be available on call, in rotation, from the various public hospitals. A sharing of this duty would nO't impose an undue burden on any Dne section. The medical team could be first on the scene orf an accident to' attend to' inJured people. This suggestion was made to' me by a -competent perSDn and it is wDrthy Df GO'vernment consideration.

Mr. B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East) .-The Treasurer's Budget speech was another instalment in the hate session against the Commonwealth Government that has been carried on over many years. It is difficult to understand why the Commonwealth Gavernment takes nO' cagnizance O'f the financial difficulties Df Victoria. I wander how long the people of Victoria in particular and Df Australia in general will put up with the ridiculous situation of the Commonwealth Government having certain pawers, the State Gavernment pDssessing further responsibilities, and IDcal governing bodies having to bear other burdens.

The Commonwea-Uh Government has gone farther along the road to achieving socialism than the Labor Party could ever hope to dO'. The old so'c1alist cry of public interest is used by the CommQnwealth Gavernment to' intrude further and further intO' the affairs of the States and slowly but surely to take over many of their pDwers and functions. The founders of the CommQnwealth CO'nstitution and the fathers orf Federation would hardly recognize their brain child. The Labor Party----the socialist party -has always favoured centralization of GDvernment in Canberra. The Federal Government can dictate to the lesser levels of government throughaut Austral,ia.

Mr. GINIFER.-That has been achieved by the present Com-monwealth Government.

'Mr. B. J. EVtANS.-That is SQ, and lit is completely aut af character for a Federal Liberal Government.

,Mr. 'WILcox.---One wonders who determines poUcy.

Mr. B. J. E'VANS.-That is SO'.

Mr. GINIFER.-The Country Party must accept some resPQnsibility fDr that situation.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-..JI accept the jibe of the honQrable member fDr Deer Park. All honorable members now know that the,ir views are samewhat discounted by their Federal


colleagues. So.oner or later the Australian people will have to. make up their minds whether they want State Governments with specific powers and finance to carry out their functions o.r a Government in Canberra exercising total authority.

At present the Victori'an Government does its best to take the credit f'Or certain achievements, even though these may be part of the natural growth and p'rogress and would be obtained by whatever Government was in power. Ho.wever, when any discredit is attached to. its actions, it always blames the Comm'Onwealth Government. Visitors to. Australia must be amazed at our system of Go.vernment. I am opposed to central'ization 'Of Govemment funcHons; the rnore centralized are those functions, the more remote is the Government from public opinion. Many members of the Federal political parties have lost touch with the public opinion that supports them.

As Commonwealth Government intrusion continues into State affairs, such as water supply and education, there will be another administration super-imposed on State Departments. The present number of civil servants will increase to. the stage where they will dictate which political party will govern the country, and the ideal of socialism will be achieved.

Mr. WILCOX.-The duplication would be extravagant.

Mr. B. J. EV~S.-That is so, and therefo.re I am opposed to centralization of Government. In the long run the taxpayer who is produoing the weal th from the soH will be loaded with the cost of carrying this topheavy administration. While I sy,mpathize with the Treasurer for the present Commonwealth-State financial relationships, it does not e~cuse him for the shortcom'ings of this Government. It should do better with the resources avaHable to. it.

The Co.untry Party, in common with the people who support it, welcomes the Budget proposal to. abolish land tax on rural properties. This has

been Country p.arty policy for many years. While I concede the points made by the Leader of the Opposition that this concession does not necessarily provide relief fairly and where it is most needed, at least it is a maJor break tlwough in an impofltant field. It is unfortunate that it has taken a disaster situation in the rural secto.r of the economy to. provoke the Government to. grant some relief.

Once again I raise the question of valuatio.ns. The Country Party is opposed to the principle of using comparative sales of properties in a particular district as a basis for the estabHshmellit df valuations by the Valuer-General"s Department. There are several facto.rs why the price paid for land is not a fair basis on which to. assess a valuation. It is well known to. honorable members, particularly if they have an interest in rural matters, that with the steady decline in returns for primary products, there ;is a constant need for expans,ion by farmers to increase production to offset their losses. Whenever a block of land is available fDr sale in a distr.ict, m'any far.mers want to. buy it to make their enterprise more econoJllic. This competition forces the price of the land a:bove a reasonable valuation figure. Superimposed on this is the element mentioned by the Leader of the OppositiDn that Collins-sltreet farmers innate the prke of land. A Conins-street farmer is the general term used to. describe a person who. has only a par!ttime interest in f.arming and who belongs to one Df the prolfessions or branches of business. He buys farming land to obta,in a tax concession for the investment of his surplus funds. He is not intere'sted in farming.

Mr. WILCOX.-You do not know anything about it.

Mr. B. J. EVA:NS.-The reaction of the IMinister of Transport indicates that my remarks are hitting home. These Collins-street farmers obtain a taxation concession for depreciation, a 'concession which is intended to assist farmers.


Mr. RAFFERTY.-Farming is not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-The honorable member for Glenhuntly ought to buy a farm and work it himself. It would be interesting to note whether he would hold the same opinion. Obviously he has found it m:ore to his advantage to get out of farming -if he ever took it up---and get into some other occupation. The Commonwealth Government should consider whether these taxation eoncessions should continue to be made available to Collins-street farmers, or whether they should apply only to bona fide farmers who obtain 70 per cent. or 80 per cent. of their income from farming. The continued tendency of persons buying farms to obtain the benefits of taxation concessions is forcing many small farmers out of business.

Mr. WILCOX.-"'How would your suggestion apply to a member of Parliament?

Mr. B. J. EVANS.---llt may be of interest to the 'Minister of Transport to know that, as a member of the Country Party in this Parliament, I do not receive any income from farming-which is probably more than he can say. Because the small farmer cannot compete with the Collins-street cockies in the purchase of additional land for the purpose of enlarging his enterprise, the tendency is for him to be forced off the land. In addition, the small farmer cannot take advantage of the depreciation provisions of the income tax Act because of a lack of ready capital. In common with other small businessmen in this State, the small farmer is being forced out of business.,

The Government relies on and applauds the development of big industrial and commercial undertakings; it completely ignores ,the plight of the small farmer and the small businessman. The small farmer believes in private enterprise. He wishes to carryon a farm and obtain a reasonable living from it but

Session 1968.-22

he has no burning ambition to buy out all of his neighbours. He is in a position similar to that of a small storekeeper who wishes to make a living from his business but has no desire to eliminate all of his opposition. In the view of the Country Party, people such as these are the backbone of a free enterprise system.

The State Government is anxious to foster and encourage the development of large undertakings and, together with the Commonwealth Government, it seems to have some sort of Utopian dream about the future. However, I am afraid that many small farmers will not share that dream, because the fruits of the future seem certain to go to the very large enterprises. The small grocer will go under to the chain store and the small dry-deaner will go under to the large city firm.

To demonstrate that this is not an exaggeration, I cite an example in the dry-cleaning field. A large metropolitan dry cleaning establishment has written to small country dry-deaning establishments 'offering not to compete with them provided that certain conditions are met. The small drycleaning establishment is generally a one-man business or a business with a small staff, and the proprietor certainly does not make a fortune. The circular informs him that if he will display the large company's sign and buy his supplies and chemicals from it and pay to it 3 per cent. of his turnover, the large company will not compete in his area.

How can the small businessman compete? This is sheer business blackmail. I appreciate the difficulty involved in attempting to legislate against such a practice, 'and I merely indicate to honorable members ,what is occurring. This practice was the subject of a letter I read on the motion for the adjournment of a sitting of the House some months ago. I understand that the practice is continuing.

I again turn to the question of valuations. One :01{ the problems which comes in the train of high level


valuations is that a .father wishes to see his property pass to the son who works with him. Most farmers wish their properties to remain within the family and feel that they have achieved something during their Hfetimes in being able to pass something on to their sons. The provisions covering gift duty, however, provide that any transaction which takes place must be at a valuation made by the Valuer-General, or there is deemed to have been a gift element in the transaction. The people concerned in the transaction then find themselves liable to pay gift duty and that, in tum, reduces the value of the property.

Mr. CLAREY.-Bu't gift duty is lower than probate duty.

Mr. B. J. EV ANS.-I did not realize that the honorable member was in agreement with us in relation to that item. I should like to see probate duty eliminated. The point is that the taxes and charges imposed on the small man make it almost impossible f.or him to pass his property on to his son. This has been a traditional practi·ce on the land, both in Australia and 'in the land of our forebears, and it is a desirable tradition, oe'cause it instils pride in the owner of the property to develop and preserve it for the benefit of those who follow him. That is not S'O in the case of a person who merely works a farm until he can obtain the best price f.or it. The Country Party believes that a good case Ican be made out 'for a general reduction of valuations in rural areas of the State.

In the light of declining prices for farm produce, it must be evident to every honorable member that there will be a decline in land values, yet the current land. valuations, which will continue in force for another six years, were set at a time when values and returns were ,much higher than at present. The people who now have to pay rates and taxes based on these values will be up in arms if the current trend in prices continues. So far as agricultural commodities are concerned there is not much cause for optimism.

The Country Party supports the Treasurer in his recent statement concerning land settlement in Victoria. Although its influence may be small, the opening for selection of suitable Crown lands is one method by which the demand for additional land can be eased. The complaint directed to the Treasurer was related not so much to the throwing open of Crown. land. for selection as to the development of lands to allow people to go on to farms, particularly in the Heytesbury area. The concern that the Country Party feels about the throwing open of blocks of land for improvement purchase leasing is that the ,trend will continue, and that only those who make money away from farms and wish to spend some of it to avoid taxation will take up and develop the blocks. I should like to see a scheme introduced which will enable the thousands of people who are breaking their necks to get onto farms of their own to be provided for, so that they may make a reasonable living at farming and enjoy a happy life. They are the people whO' should be able to obtain blocks of land.

Schemes such as the Heytesbury project have assisted many of those people to achieve their life's ambition, but not enough is being done in this direction. The Shire of Orbost has a special problem in that over 80 per cent. of its area is not rateable. This creates problems in the development of the area, in the provision of roads, and in the servicing of settlers, quite a number of whom live in isolated localities. I agree with the view of the Shire of Orbost that the only way to overcome many of its disabilities is to develop more rural holdings and thus increase the population to a level where the provision of amenities can be justified. In my view decentralization largely depends on the amenities provided in country towns; and there can be no argument that the citizens of this State should enjoy comparable amenities, whether they live in the city or in the most faraway comer of the State.


People in these areas are constantly indicating their belief that something should be done in the provision of amenities so that decentralization will be encouraged. They do not wish to see very large cities all over the State, but they would like to see the establishment of reasonably large communities not far from their own areas. They want these communities to be large enough to warrant the provision of school and amusement facilities and opportunities for employment. In this way the families are not disrupted at too early a stage and the children are able to attain a reason~ble .level. of education during the perIOd m whIch they must remain within the family circle.

For these reasons, pe'Ople in rural areas are looking towards the development of small industries in country towns. I regret that the Government is showing no inclination towards the encouragement of such industries. By its handling of the natural gas and oil discoveries off the coast of Victoria, it has already thrown away the greatest advantage that any Government could ever hope for. in order to achieve any worthwhIle measure of decentraHzation. East Gippsland has aU the basic requirements ,for any civilization indud:ing a good water supply, ra~ materIals :and fuels. However the Government has seen fit to ch~nnel new d~v~lopment to Westernport 'so that WIthIn the next fifteen or twenty year's the .metropolitan area, instead of extendmg around most of Port Phillip Bay, will also encompass Westernport Bay; there will bea great metropolis extending 40 or 50 miles from the ,centre of the present metropoolitan area. Country towns will s,tiU be cry.ing out for the establishment of small industries so that local boys and girls m-ay find empl'Oyment.

Mr. WILCox.-What about the deep-sea port facilities at Westernport?

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-I a'm afraid I do not understand the significance· of the Minister's question. AU I know

is that the Government ,is -making available a large sum of money to provide facilities for a large industrial combine to which I referred earrlier, a'lthough it does not seem t'O be able to find much money to assist sm:all industries in c'Ountry -areas.

Mr. WILCox.-What possibilities are there for a deep-sea port in the area of which you are speaking?

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-I could give the M.inister some informa,nion on that pOint,. but I do not think this is the right time to do S'O' Perhaps I could talk the matter over with him, because I believe there are re'a! possib~l~t~es . of developing deep-sea faclllllt~es In the area; lIt 'requires only the WIll to: do so.

Mr. RAFFERTY.-Who would use those facil'ities?

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-'f.he secretary of the Cabinet realizes that they are not being used now because there are no facilities ava'Hable. Japanese intere~~s are keen to import large quantItIes of pulpwood chips from East Gippsland. The econo-mic radius from which these chips can be transported by road is some 70 miles. If anyone 'cared to estim:ate what quantity of pulpwood timber would be avaHable within a 70-lmile radius of Lakes Entrance, he would arrive at an interesting answer. This is a wonder.ful opportunity for the develop'ment of trade with Japan in this raw m'aterial. The only drawback is the fact that there ,is no port from which such an industry can operate.

It may be of interest t'O the secretary of the Oabinet to learn that large numbers of -men are being transported .from Lakes Entrance to carry out work on the oil rigs in Bass Strait. The vessels whkh have to negotiate the entrance -meet difficult conditions at times, and 'the sand bar constitutes a serious danger to these people. Of course, the secretary of the Cabinet if he visited an oil rrig, would travei by helicopter, so he does not have to worry about the sand bar.

It is poss'ible and feasible for deepwater fadlities to be constructedperhaps not spedfi.cally at Lakes

556 Budget [ASSEMBLY. ] Debate.

Entrance, but in that vicinity. The Government is interested ,in the proposal because it has refer'red to the Wallingford Hydraulic Research Station in England a request for assistance in carry,ing out a model study on the sand bar problem at Lakes Entrance. Perhaps the Minister of Transport should keep in touch with ·what is going 'On in other Depart'ments ; if he did so, he would realize that the Government lis interested in this matter. However, it has not yet decided the ,amount of money it considers 'is the l!imit to which this proposition is econQimicaHy feasible. I do n'Ot know whether the Govem'ment is prepared to spend $500,000, $1,000,000 or $2,000,000, and neither do the people 'at Wallingford.

Mr. MANsoN.-We cannot say that until we know what the answer to the pvoblem is.

Mr. B. J. EVANS.-During my recent overseas trip I pa!id a visit to this research station at W·allingford. The technicians did not know how much they could spend on investigations because they did not know how much the Government was prepared to spend. They could not inform me whether the Govern'mentwanted 10 feet, 12 feet or 15 feet of water over the sand bar. How can they start an investigat1ion unt:H the Government states that it is prepared to spend a certa'in sum on the project? When the research people know what the Government is prepared to spend they can take practical steps towards achieving a solution. Tlhey can then say to the Government, " This is what can be done for $500,000 and this willl provide 10 feet of water over the sand bar 'at all times". I am only taking a guess at the figures. It may be that in order to get 15 feet over the sand bar it will 'be necessary to spend $2,000,000. This is the sort of infoIimation the research people want to know. How. can they find a solution to the difficulty when the Government wHl not teH them how much it is prepared to spend? In this matter the Government adopts its us u a.} policy of the dog chasing its tail.

I realize that the hour is late and that honorable 'members have already been subjected to faidy long speeches. I have raised some of the matters to which I wished to direct attention, but I do not want it to be thought that I have raisedaH the problems that I desire to mention. I shall take advantage of other opportunities whkh will be avaHable to me later in the sessional period .to speak O'n other Imatters and perhaps amplify some O'f the problems that I have mentioned tonight.

Progress was reported.

ADJOURNMENT. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT: ILLNESS OF

SHEPPARTON STUDENTS.

Mr. WILCOX (M'inister 'Of Transport) .-1 move

That the House, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday next, at half-past Three o'clock.

The motion was agreed to. Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Trans

port) .-1 move-That the House do now adjourn.

Mr. ROSS-EDWARDS (Shep-parton) .-1 wish to direct the attention of the Government to a widespread sickness which occurred in Shepparton today and which is attributed to contaminated milk. At least one school of more than 400 students had to close at approximately 2 p.m. today and the children were sent home, quite a number of them being ill. This is a serious state of affairs and I ask the appropriate Minister to refer it to the Minister of Health and the Minister of Education as a matter of the utmost urgency.

Mr. WILCOX (Minister of Transport) .-1 shall certainly direct the attention of the Minister of Education and the Minister of Health to the matter raised by the honorable member for Shepparton. However, 1 should think that both honorable gentlemen are probably already aware of the matter.

The motion was agreed to. The House adjourned at 10.27 p.m .. ,

until Tuesday, October 8.

iltgialntiut alilitmhly. · a title for land can be guaranteed because land stays put. with a motor...

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