Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 27 OCTOBER 1904

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

556 [ASSEMBLY.]

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY,

THUR~DA Y, 27 0CTOB';R, 1904.

The SPEAKER (Hon. A. S. Cowlev, He1· .. at) Z(_)ok the ch.J.ir at hdlf~past 3 o'c-lock ...

PETITIO X. t;PREAn o~· TreK I)EST.

. Mr. HAM!LTON (Urcyor·.·J) presented a p2ti­t1I_on ~ram refn~ent~ of }Z:ynnna and surrounding C.i.l~tncts, pray1ng the Cxovernment to take stt·p-..: toyrevent the spread nf t.ick8.

Petition read and r~·c;eived,

llAJLIYAY CONSTRuCTION IK \'IEST­J£HN AND ~OR'l'H-IYESTERK COUNTRY.

~Ir. P .• J. Ll~AHY (Wan :10), in movil:_;·-1. That, in the opinion of this Hou~e. it is dr~irahh;

that vrovision should be made at the eitrlicst possible date for the construction in the "'iYcstern and North­western countrY of such 1·aihva' ;; us will 1~ the effec:ts of future' droughts. ·

[Hon. M. Jensen.

:?:. That a line f•onne-f'ting 1hr. lH'E" nt tl•tu'.k 1ine-. an~l cxt.endiug to the Gult' of Cavpeutaria ::;hould 1Y' eo ~ struc:ted with the lea~l po::-:sil:Jle -lelay.

:J. 'L'hat the money ior bnilding thc:;.;e rn,HWH'-·s hij raiRC'U \)y tl.e :--ale of Crown l<Lid:-'. the ::; tling prk !Jt \Vllien s-hall he tl"\e(l hy tl1e Lan(1 Conrt-

_,aid : I think I 1nay fihnoo;t ~ay in 1novinr:; tJ<., rnotion tbnt do ij. if not at the rennest of l}re1nier, at all evet{t::-; in aecordanc'e with wisbcR. ln saying tbat I 'vould like to quota,tion frcnn r, spePclt made by the hem. 1na'1 8onH-) HlOUth;-:; ago. The Premier '\'<:'IS the-n re:plyin_.; to 1\Ir. Hert.zberg, chcrinn·u1 nf tl ·: Chamber of Cmnn1erce~ rtnd he ~aid--

l.r-ith regard to linking up all the ,tlng rrn-tin that was a. mntter of tlH· "·; · tliJlll which UtCr(:: cDnicJ be but iittk douht "'twh a Htep ,\-onld t.L -m td ef~'ect material e('t.Jltfl1Him;; in tl1D working' c ,.. ra!_-"'·ay ... it would Otlcr, np a ~·xtent ni 1 -nmt;···. •~ J it won let giYt' n;.; a g·et~ ·ya~- ti:ru, ~ n1 droug-ht. Ita had hO}JC'', of !'ering :-:orne d:ty a rail\Tay north~we.'it to ~ollle poiut either 111 on: own tf. ln the Xorihcr:n Terl'itm"" of 1'.-onth Australia. prc.SPllt tlwre w:-t;.; :nnple jnsLi1kation fur matter brong!lt forw:ud '.n· inquiry and con>luer:n lie thought 1t Y.-ntld 1w a ~·Jotl it1Pa to (· mstr~;ctinn of a line from, sa~-. Darwin. A lille like tllat would of: aho•. t l,l\00 mil~~ of r:: llrc.itl. 1)~trt '\YlJi<'ll wonlfl b·"· in r:.notl1cr Rt~tte. rl'hf' mattrr n:a:-; one that mi llt \'i-'t engage thl' Gon·rlJUlC'llt, en~n in tl1ese 1Jard t.ittle~ when onr monH:n-y rc::;ourees WL'H' lilnHrd. He po:;;ed to or1.:n tiw i ~att<~r np fm· \Yit.h (;oyernmcnt ~~f 8nt~tlt An~tralia. ~-..-Jew to ~()(;in:;; \\"lwthb', \Yhen we We're in a po~itin' 1:1 re.-.nme -em1~trnction. then~ eonld he anY r.Hnmon i.ng lletiYP.t'll the t·wo St ,te-<. lie wa" ''.Ot cp1ite s;u_ whC't·her,it would 110t lJr u WJ"C: thin~· t(} ~f'ntl }L m;m to iu:-<jJeCt ttw comltry -.~ a !Jrdimina:·y.

I ag-ree· with GYer_ything 'vhich the hon. uw11 said in that speech, but I hope to go i.he matter moro cleepl;. than he did on occasion. 'Jlherl· is Ht ed that 'vc should a broad vie;' c ~ thing.; at tbo present or. as an Arne-l'ican Rh1.tesman said over a huu.lreJ ·-c·ar.~ atj·o. a continental y]e\-Y

things, and ihc sarne rcn1ark applies (~·uee110land to-clnv. In the past there been too great a tenrl.cncy to take a narro\Y or ;'arochial view, forgetful of the fact that th,,, iutNests of the whole of the State are bound np with e 'eh part of it. For instance, the rwoplc of the Darling Downs, and the coast, a.nd Brisban<', ha.ve as much, and I be-lie;­more inh rest in this question than the peoplt, <>f the \Yest. and it is well, therefore, that we should take a iJroad view of this as of all other questions. No·,., I have at some little troub!C' looked into this question, ancl t:ogether ~on1e facts and figures bearing on I haYe a n;ap in the Chamber which will shoy three or fonr of the proposed lines. I am noG tied dm1·a to any particular lint>. Ono is a line nmning from Charlcyi!lo to Normanton. That c!istanco, scaled off the map, is 684 miles. and if connected "·ith Hichmond, .,, hi eh is 20 mile, distant, th• toral distance would be 70·1 n1iles. ~\ccordjng J o the la·~,t rcpol't of the Conunis­sioner for Hail,, avs, tho IUchn1ond line cJst something under £:LGOO a mile. I think, there­fore) we would bo safe in assurning that a fair aYerage cost of the proposed line' would be ahout £1,500 :· mile, which would bring the co·~t up to £1,05G,OOO. Longreach, it will be observed, would be sl'_~·hti:v west of this line, and vYinton -10 n1iles ,,. c,t. That Vi'ould be an objection to thC' proposed line from Charlm·illo to Norman­t•Jn, because it would not run through the present termini. The distance from Oharle­Yille to Longrz <1ch is 235 miles; Longreach t'J \Yinton 101 miles: aEd from vVintou to Nor­IHanton :~1S mileS, and the connection with 1~ichmond would lw GO miles. or a total of 74& mii<"s. If. therefore. instead of that straight line fron1 Cha:lcville to Normanton we v;.2r>-~

Co1tsf 1 dc1 wn i · OcroBEll.] TV. and ]}-t. }} .... Countr,y. 55'i

cL ·v-ith Lo:np:rca ·.h a.ncl \Yiu ... "Hl

i3.,icbrnond,. the di:stance ., >\Thich, at. the- sanlC' l'atC' per rni1E'.

to a total CO'->t of £1.110.080. The sho""~.Vll on the n1ap is frorn Cunna­

Norn1anton direct, aud passing Adavalr and Yvinton. The distance is . -. nd there vvould be no nccess~ty to

~~LlHF:Jt t,l;o ~Vint?n lin~,, bec<:Luso it \vould pass , nrough t.tle tc. L'Imnu~. J'ho chstan<·"J from Cun­, ~.11nu.Ua to r~;orL_anton is 773 miles: to connect >Nith I ... oiJg~_~ach it w:n;ld be ~!.3 :miles, to con­Her 1 wiJ.1 \·\ inton 50 rnil0s, or a toktl distance

f f,8G miles, ''-·hich, at a cost of £1.300 a mile. ·' oulcl ;cmo:mt to £1.299,000. The line on the ]Pft is from Thal'gomindah to Xormanton. a di,,·,taHLO of 730 1niles; the connection with Ji/Jngr<':lCh ,,:ould be 10~ n1ilcs. to t:onncct ,vith \'.-inton 33 miles, and rith Richn1ond 84 miles; : "d if that lino were built it would be neccs­

rrharg-ornindah \Vith Cunna­would be 116 miles, or a total

1,0\ll milt's, the ccst of which amount to £l,G3G.500. [:\lr. GRA:-JT:

" c:o ym ma\o out that the Rich­mond li_w cost £1,.500 a mile ?l The l~ieln .. oud railVc a.v line cost n1ore than the :ines in certf.tin"' portions of the ';v csteru t ountry had cost. 'I'ho lino from Charleville ~o Cunnamulla '"as built in a rnorc exnensh'e mauncr, yet it cost no more than th~ Rich­mond line to build. The Richmond line co't uncle.:.· £1 1600 per mile to build. and it \-,'otdd

shack le•3 to build the line I have re­to. Thoro might be a difference of £50

a mile, but that does not affect the I am dc:1ling with. I am simply giv­

a rough e.'..timate_ It n1ight, however, be 'l\Hlsidered dec:irable, instead of running a line

Thargomindah to Nor1nanton, to ruJJ <.t from Thargomindah to iVinton, from

there to Cloncurry, and thence to Normanton. The dist<mce from Thargomindah to \Vinton is ;:;go n.:!Ps, from \Yinton to Cloncurry 200. •nd from Cloncurry to Normanton 21G; and

with Longrcach the distance is and connecting with Cmmamulla.

llG miks. That would make a total distance ''" U90 milcs-100 miles loss than the other line. ·~\Ld the total cost of that line, at £1,500 per milr, would be £1,485,000. J'\low, making a •Jmpa.rif'on briefly between the sev-eral lines,

rr' length, including connections with trunk tJ,· diFt,mccs y, ould be: Charkvill, to

C\ic,n:,m.Jnt<m. 704 miles; Cunnamulla to Nor-Thargornindah to ?\onnanton

dirl:qr, connection to Longrcach, \Vinton, ,md Richmond. 1091 miles, at £1,500 per mile, wodd mean £1,636,500. If the line were

ilt frorr1 ~[hargomindah to Nor1nanton, vicZ and CJoncurry, tho distance would be

al!Cl it might be desirable to connect '"ith Bourke· or

In the fonner ca~e be' HO miles, and in latter

The lino from Loagreach to the ono that the Premier re­extract I reacL f'The PREMIER: gentlernan made reference to

to n1ore than that, because he ex­opinion that it would be a good

ad \~ocate tho construction of a line to Port Darwin-and in that

to a portion of this line. It may :·o de jrable to extend the line to Port Darwin, ~)UlJ no\v I arn only concerned vvith lines in our o·vn territory. )Jovv, of course, I rnay bo adkr-d what great gain mn1 :result to Qucons­iancl ftom this, and also how the Government ate going to find the money to build such a Enc. I think those are both very p<'rtincnt questions, and I intend to answer them as far

as it is 111 1ny pew( r to do so. This motion arnon,:;st other things, that the Land

fix the price of sufficient land to be the n. :mey to build this line. I do

:1ot kno~ .. v, of course, Vl"hero the land might sold: but I think that it should be sold in neighbourhood of '7hcre the line is to be

although it is not absolutely essential lane! should be sold there. I assume,

: t 1:e of argument, that the land would lJCl INOrt.h :::·,. Gel. per ac1·c, and also that the

of snch " line would bo £1,500 per mile­i:-:.:, th0 rnaxinnun amount. That is to

av. if the lino co't £1,500.000, it would be to sell 12.000,000 am·c3 of land. 'That

mean that, if a line was 1,000 miles long, of country 18~ miles running the whole of the lino would be necessary, and

wenld be equal to 12,000,000 acres. [The :-)FC'lU.l'.\lW FOR RAILWAYS: l\'ine and a-half miles on each siclc.l I do not say that in all u,sGs it would be desirable to sell land in that

It mig-ht In best to go back 30 or .Alternate blocks would not be a

system, but it has the objection that ,omo of the hmses have not expired, and anothu ohjec;tion m that we might be 'elling land without water. At any rate, that indicatBs with sufficient clearness the area of 1and necessary to sell in order to give effect to this motion. The next question is whether the land could be sold; but I do not wish to elabo­rate that point, as I have dealt with it before in this House. I think that in another year, Yvith a continuance o£ good seasons., we ,zrill have every reason to hope that land can be ,-old for purpose, of this kind. As to the ad­vanta ·e that (~ueenslancl will derive from the huildill g· of these lines, I may say at the out­set that I do not think that these lines will pay interest; but I am certain that they will be likely to pay more- towards the interest 1han lines to agricultural districts and other place,-, alon· Broad~y ·.poakiug, tho t ·unk liJlP·.,. pay 011 the cost of construe-

and l think lYe arc~ vYarranted in assuming if thP Je 1iJ18:" (~xtcnded and connected t·hn trunk ·, tht> line, \:vould give a.

1ea, on able retum. I "''timat0, for the purpose ,,f argument. that the> loss wili be 1 per cent. or J b per cent., but the indirect advantages would be :::o large as to fully warrant us in incurring t,hat loss. I would like to say right here that t.here is no private land in the \Vest that could uc incrert.·:ed in Yalue by the coE~tructioll pf :-:uch u linf'. ]t \:ould i1:crcase the valut:­( ·f Cro\. n i m cl. . and th·:·:.. -:) is a provi::-iou 1·1 t.he Lulld ..:\.et, to th~ ciTc--:t. that that !...: cun of the i~hiuc::. the }~and C·)ul't ha::; tc" i-ako iLt~n con .:c:F.:.·'atinll in fixl·;g the re~Tt..:. I kno·w that on the opening of the line to Cun­namulla, the enhanced value of land there was taken into consideration. I know instances

2s. or 3s. Pxtra pPr rnilP -;va~ put on. 1 1lw c i". a. perft.>~tly lair thin"'!,"' that \·dH're a r

t-~ fi..ll1,..; through pri\ .,tely-o}·ned la:::-Jd, that the owners who benefit by the railway con­"t.ruction should contribute something extra to the revenue,. I cnt.irely agree ''vith the better­~nnnt principle \\.i.th reg·ard to these linf through privately-owned land. My main reason for bringing· for~vard this motion is t:·:at the ln)·'J nun1hers

·dw.r savPd L an\r oi' the lin~ I ;;uf~"Q'cst had been built. If y~u look at the !in~, from Charleville or Cunnamulla, to Normanton, you v.·ill find that about one-third of the land is west o£ that iine. I have a rough calculation here, and I find that west of that line there are 2·10,000 "tnan miles out of a total of 660,000, equal to 150,000,000 acres, or more than one-third

JJJr. P. J. Leahy.]

558 ~ASSE:YIBLY.] TV. and Y. W. Go ·;d;··''·

the total area of the State. The next ques­tion i,.;, what stock is that countrv able to carry, and what stock it depastured before and afte:· the drought? I ma"<" be told that st'?ck has been sent a<'. ay. Lut that is a r-.·gulH th1ng. because graziers arf' ah;·av:-3 dispo?i.1u .. !.· of stock, and it does not affect m'v arc:ument. ff there \Va~ a cPrt-:_iu nnrnbor of ---tock-·ill that C(hlntry before the drought. n11d a certaiJI nun1lx after the drought) it i:-:. a fair assnnlp­tion that the difference· was caused bv the drought. Ta.king· the average of one beast to 42 acres, which i,.; a fair basis. >VC· find that that country would be able to carrv 3,650,000 head. Some of that country is sheep countrv and some cattle country, but I am taking cattle as the. basis of my argument. I think I am nght 111 saying that we had f'Oinething likB 7 ,OOO,OUO or 8,000.000 head of cattle before the drought, and 21.000,000 sheep. aml a··suming­six sheer as equal to one head of cattle, that \vnnld gnT~ 3,6;)0.000 in tl10 area 1nPntioned. ThP los~c· duriup: tlte drought W{'H' hE'aYie'_'' i11

lhe \Yc-tcm count~r::--auout 6il per cent. In tlw South tlw los,e, nn the ,·hole a:nouut to 80 per cf 11t., but in the C-ulf countJ·v the lo:-:se,, \Yerc ·!1ot ~o hea:yy--i n -:n;nP ca:-:e-; J lothing. X o~\, 1f that country earned, e<av :3 300,001) ca,tt.h o1· its equivalent in ~hPep, LC-?ior~ the drought., and 60 p_er. CGnt. of them died chtrillg· thn drouf.(ht, rt rs ven Pasv to sec that ::.UUO UUO

of the;;, died in consequencE' of' the f-1 p.111.] drought. That 11111nbu v ould have

. paid for this line twice ovel'. Th(~ next question is \vhether it \vou]d be vos:-ible t·.J :-:avc thos~ ~stock. or any co1~:-:irlerv :;le portion of them, 1! we hrrd these ra1l \',ay,, I do not say, for one moment. that the> _,:hole of thme 2,000.000 cattle could haw hfen saved. because there 1nay be \2rtuin l'.Pn1otc plact"·::-. clo;:-;e to the South ~.\_u~~t.raliu:n Lorder fron1 wbich it \"'< ~)~lld ha \·e l~eeu inlpo:lsihle to renw\ :­the .:Stock. :-3ome st1tions aloiH~' the 8{ ~1th ....:-\·,1~. trahau border ou1cl be 130 1niles distant froHI ~ha~ line. But l think I am ~ afe in a~;~urninr:; that 1.000.000 cattle could haw j_,,ell 'avcd if wo had bad n1eans of (rettir1~' th0n1 eitluw to marlu-..t ,_ or i o sonJA placP ".;+~f-re tbore \'ra . ...;

[}Jr. l)l-~.YfOED: \YhcL-' V\'Ould in a dronght ?] Durj u , r he countey le. t liLtJC' ur J~o

,.,7 cre ~ent fron1 thl·. sev0ral

to coa::>t. ~·lnd 11ot onlv tho coa.st, but they \n:-re se.llt to a couple of hundred hor"'' to but 1 could uot ba·,:o done :so if been ue:~.r to a rail-·;ay line. [~~.Ir. \:Yhat would ha,.,~<' happPU(-"d i~l

if all the to~k had bc•e,; not adYocato tha+ all t.he

country );1ould h0 sent tn countc·y. Although I achnit i·hat. drought \-vas pro~mbly rnore any -rrcce:ding dron.: of any knoY:ledge, st-ill Queensland and New there '" a.s grass to be ordinary ch·ought there arc of Queensland whore If .,,-e had thc,,e lines of stock conhl either the mcat·.-'ork;. or thcv t,, the Gulf countey, to' coast lands. m somev'hero else whore there was grass. I want to make 17-1y 0 ~timate as low as possible. Instead of assummg that 2,000,000 cattle might have been saved, l shall asstune that '-' e could hav~; sawd 1,000,000, m":l, in•.toad of Yaluin.c· them at £3 a he.1d-\Yhich would be a fEr~!.' average value--I shall value them at half that. amount .. That rnean:::: that ,,~c might, hv n1t:a11s tho.so raihv-a.y.c:-. have saved stock~ a £1.500,000. That would l•e

[1!1 r. P. J. Leahy.

a11v of the lines Iudicated on t}Jat n1ap. it iHJt a ~erious nwtter that iu a drought as 1.-: R had t\yo or three years ag·o th(_·_t an1ount. of national < ~E'alth should he lost,-an that ie< ,nJlicient. to build the railwa" ) without one shilling of expense to the g-t-,neTa.l taxpa~rpr: I bclievP that the \1--f'<:tern peopl·" \\'0tJld ha\'e be·en no worse off than they arr' to-cl a v it thev had bnilt tlw.se linee< themsehc ·. [:1h. · K'~Rl' :' -would tlwy have built,. thern. tlwnglJ ·~1 1 do Hot think it would be fair t•Y a:-:k thPn1 to build thern. l ~Jr. BrHROYVS ·: \Y oulcl t.hl'v pay morP Tent '!l The:v would hH hound to pay n1orc re11t. There is one ycr\ important point to be considered. \Ye rnust, recog·nj,,p. thi~ \\ -e,Jcrn eountrv i::-: not a countr"":' in '~'hich 2;ood ~ea~oll:--; are 't\e rule. Good :'f'D.;-;ons are the pxception, aud the e\:perieHc+:. 1 ht• pa:-;tol'ali.;:.t~ ha H' had of drought condition,~ tuaches thPm that it i~ only ~afp to ~t.ock tha,-_. con:ltrv 011 a drou,..,:ht ha~is. In a g-ood :3Pt~:-J 1 hC' cot~ntrv ·will ( arrv a bea_-;t to 20, or S5 acrt> . .:-:, hut, ii the_,- st.ock on a drought basis, it will only carry a be1st to /0 a~'res. [The IIonn_· SECRETXEY: Tho pa~toralists do not ,, ue that. .At least. they do not act on it.] PeThaps t.he" have not in th0 r ,.)st. hut the experience of t1w· r0cc=mt drought must iinpress it upnE r.l10n1. I~Ir. 1IA \IIL'TOX: The-y are uot doing· it.] Ii ;,yjll be a ycr:_v good tlrillg', both fo.r the pa:;:.torali~t:-; and for t,he oonntry. if the.'!' ~tod\: cu a drought ba~i:-:. if raihvav;-; aF;

liOt Lnllt., hecau~e' drmJf~·hb: \vill corr1P V a.gaiil, awl', if thPv do not "tock on that 'ba;;;i'~ thev 1vill in~evita1Jlv lose their ~tock. In a L·acl tin1P. UPfGTE' thf: ~tock lo~" their conditio,t, thev can Le removed to tlw Gulf or to son1•> oth'er place 'lYherP t-hey- can b0 kept aliv0. j:\lr. :NIEI 'OX: Perhaps you ,,. ould ask t.he (-~oyerument to tarry then1 for nothing-.] I do not think the Government. would be asked to carry them foT nothing: but the Go­YeTnment. during the late drought, wHe aske£!. to give Teduced rates, and not only the Government of Queensland, but the Govern· ments of all the AnstTalian States gave 1'0·

duced rates for starving- stock, and th<> Go­Yernment of New South \/Vales gave lo'"'" rat: than ihe UoYeTlHnent of Queensland did. [:\fr. :Nmr.so": Then how are you g-oing make the line pay?] I will repeat for the formation of the hon. member th-,,t we may probably lo,c 1 per cent. or 1~ per cent. on r.he e lines: but the Land Court will increa·-"> the rents in cyery instance where the land has been enhanc8d in value throug-h the construction of the lines, and quite rig-htly so. J3ut :JTPa t benefit ,_,_·ill be conferred by -the con­struction of the lines upol1 the whol<' com­munity. In time of drought there are \Veste~n :men \vho vvould keep their stud 'tock alive lJy getting fodder f1;om the Darling Dow·u; and other coastal districts, hut they cannot atTord to pay tho high prices of carria.~e. If Hwre \Va. railwav coinmunic.lt:ion, it would bo possible for thorn to get fodder at reasonable rates, and largo quantitic,s of produce would be sent out in time of drought. Another

advantag'c to be gained by thus linkin" up trunk lines would be that it would admit of

the interchang-e of rolling-stock, which would be of gl'eat advantage to the Railn ay Depart­rnent. I have a nun1ber of arg:.u11f u+.s ir~ addi­tion to those I have already enumerated. It would be possilole-although,I am only dealing· with Qucensland-to run that line to Port Danvin. I believe a grea.t saving would be effected, if that W'3re done, in th0 matter of passengers between here and the old country. If the lino were built to Normanton. there might be some saving, but I have not suffi­cient knowledge of that district to say whether

Rail1w.'J Construdion in [27 OcToBER.] TV: anr1 .. Y. TV. 55()

those lar:;e ohips could go in there or not. In the case of Port Darwin, these> are some of the advanta~·es that ma. l-;0 claim0cl for t.ht- ex­tc-nsioJl cf a li110 frcJm ljnPPn'- land: It -...vould J .,·ovicle the ,hortest rout;> to ~.\ ·-ia. ~Hrica. Europe, and Eastern America. It would pro­vide the shortest route for mail and passPnger traffic. There would be a saving in the journey to Colombo from Brisbane by four days, from Rockhampton by six days. and from Towns­ville by ten clays. Large shipping compa11ics now tra.ding to the East fron1 Europe would only too readily connect from Singapore, or even provide a direct line from Brisbane t•id our coastal ports. An up-to-date overland train service would run from Brisbane to Port Darwin in cighty-fivG hours, and therG meet the steamers of such a line. To give you a morA accurate idea how the saving in question is to be effected, I need only mention that the dis­tance from Adelaide to Colombo is 4,451 milGs, whilst from Port Darwin to Colombo it ;, 3,109 miles, thus saving 1.342 miles, equal b fom· days' sail. The time taken in transit from Brisbane to Adelaide by rail is seventy-five hours, from Brisbane to Port Darwin would take eighty-five hours, from Rockhampton and Townsville re~pectively to reach Port Darwin ~yould. of cour'"C', bfl cnrrC'Apondincly le'fl~. 1.. do not k·~rnv whether it is possible t,o gain the same adnntage in the matter of time bv building the lino in QuePneland. but, eycn {f the adYantages were J0,s, it would IJe beLtc'r to build the line to some Northern port than to extm:d it to Port Darwin. One reaeon why a hne m tlus \\ cstPrn conlJtn cottld h1 built ,;o cheaply is that thE>rP arc 'pmctically no en­gine.cring cliH1cultie~--1lU mouJ1tai11::; mHJ few riv~rfl ~o ern·-:-:. The. line tDuld probably b8 ma1ntmn{_-'d at. Olle-tlurU of the co~t. of a line like that tl'Om Y\arwick to KiHamcv m anv cf those lines Hl agricultural districtS. , rrher~ is very little rain in the 1/V est and timber stands better in <lry country th~n in the moister 'oastal country. I do not think the white a,nts destroy the sleepers between Charleville and Cunn.amulht. And not only would the cost ,of rna1nta1ntng the pennaneut way be less, but 1t would not re({uiro a great deal of labour to run the trains, because vou would not ~-·~quire a train every daz;- Ol' every second. day. l robably you would on]y run two trams a week. \Vc know also that stock and wool are two of the be5t revenue-producing items in { )Eecnsland. and thev would be the main things CcclTicd on this' line. There would also Jo a ucn"idc:rabl~ pass(':lg~r traffic; and, taking ~]] these thm:ss mto cons1deration, I am justi­..~..~.rd 111 a~:Sunnng t-h..1t t.ln;:; hne or anv of the~e linos ·would ;:;ome roa;:;o11abte a~n1ount of inten=,:t on of construction. Then there is a fn·ther L.attcr to be comidored. vV e hear a gre~t deal about settling people on the land. Vvoll, nothing would be more likely to open up thr' \Yestcrnlands than railway communica­twn, I do not thmk '~G can ever have close setthnncnt in that cou!1trv in the sense in which VVO understand the tcnn uin C011l18Ction ·v,:ith an agricultural district, bnt there is no reason at all why we should not have runs of 500 square miles whece now we have runs of 3,000 square cnlk"i-TIO r::-a;;:~m y·hy p_Taz)ng farr::1 settlf'­Ll8nt iu . .:;oJne di:::.trict--, should not iLK"8a):~. If we can, by building this line, ,cttlc more people in the \V p·:t. i[ WP can Lencfit the people of the Darlin.~· J)ov<ns, Brisbane, and othc:1~ co_t::;t tov.ns, and ·aye large nu1.nberK of stock, and all at a comparatively small annual t0st, the proposal is one that ought to meet with acceptance in this House and in the country. There is very much more that I should like to say upon this matter, but I do not think it

is clc.oirable that I ,;hould talk out my own Jnotion, and I 1vant to gi'. 0 hon. 1nembers on tlw othcr side a show. If this line were con­uectcd fron1 cithfT Boud..:c to Cunna1nulla or fmm Bourlw t0 Tharg·omindah. it \muld be a distir:,..i advantage, l;ccausc at a ti1ne vvhen r, E' ha ye 110 _zTa;;s in <JneC'·l Ja. Ill :3,Jillf' othel' p:n1 of A~·-.:tralia ha:-- nnd that cm:-l:.Pctiua all .. A.u;;..tralia ,.o.·o1 <t11y OP~'"1l to tlw p oplc of <)ur :1\l'. TOT."IlE: ThP.v mi!.!.·ht ~en cl rlH' ~outh.] TherP i"' llO clang:t'l" of that PJ'llf'rally. !wcaU··L'- they v,ciiJ follow. likl' \YaiPl', t.ltP Ene.) of least. JT'-;lst­allCP. Then• n1ight ~:0 a 1ittlt-- ·Lraffic along the border which would go to J\Iclbourne and Sydney, but it would b' Yery small. There is another arh·antage. I submit we ought to take a broad Yicw of this question, and look into the future-not 0xactlv as far as human eve can sec, but ten or hventv vcars ahead. \\'e are warranted in assuming 'that a tim<' mav come wlwn ,.o shall ha.-c trouble with othe,· countries, and haYo to defend ourselves. What is the use of lines running along the coa't that can be brokon up by an invading al'lny, \YhAn ·wo can 1nakc a connection inland. I should like to know what Power could come to CharleYillc> or Thargominclal! to burst up thP railway line~. 1 nu could n1ovc your troops fron1 one c al of ~\H:-;tralia to tlH• {)thcr without tla-• !"'ligl1te t dangPr of b(Yinp· n1<,lr ·tt•d by a11 illYadillg army. Tha.t iu it:-;e]f 1~ not one of t.he :-;n1alle~t argurne11t:-> tlwt. can bP used iu fayour of the C'Jnstructiou of thi~ li11e. 'Ye hoar a great deal about ~ettling people on the la11d and developlng our Tesources. but :-;omf'llow the- '\Yhole thing i~ in the air; vve do no1, appear to be very anxious to do anything pmctit ~1. There are some things we can do in the \Vf~stern country, and some things we r.mnot do. \Ye cannot raise up mountains and 1nake a rcg:nlar rainfalL or dn mJythin~- to control the climate. but it is possible for us to open up the Western country by railway con­struction, and thereby prevent the lo,-s of stock £J'Om drought, and make thG country carry mon' than it has carried hitherto. By this we C<lll giYP a large number of people <"11ployment at the pre,Pnt time, and benefit the coastal districts-in fact, all parts of Queensland. l think it is about time we gave up tlworising abont thc,c things and did ' 'mothing practical. and if we gi.-c our earnest attention to this matter probably good will com'' of it. I now comme-nd this motion to the good sense of t:ho House. and I trust that I inay Lo able to g'('t a voto ou it, but if I cannot got a vote I hope the whole question will be trc .1<.erl upon its merit.;. and if it is trPatcd on its n1Prits I think I arn justified in asking thn fasonrable consickration of the IIousc.

*Tlw SECRli:T~\FcY FiR IL\H~\Y.\1':--\ (Hon. A. :C\lorgan, Wancick) : While there are :-;on1o parts of this ~l'!Orion \vith which I <-.:m disposed to agr{'e. I cannot agree \vith tho Ycholo of it. 1 thi:,l: that members of the Iiou:-;c are pretty ·w0ll at one in the opinion chat the construction is dosirable in the North and \Y estern countn:- of tLc State of such rail­\Yavs as vri.ll Jcc"s0'n t1:c efff'cts of futuro dr{)ughts. \Yt~ \Youlc1 an like to see railwayr; constructed not only in tlw \Vestern and North-western parts of thp State, but in all parts of the State. But "'hen we agree to that. I think there is room ,for difference of opinion as to some of the details of the schemes in their entirety. It has long been the desire of all the members of this House. and of the n_ailway DPpartment in pal'ticulal:, to soe our disconnected main line svstems connected bv lines running either along. tlw coast or up the \Vestcrn districts of the t::ltate, and connecting

Hon. A.Jlorgan.]

560 Ruilu:ay CansiJ'Uciion in [ASSE!HBLY,J TV. and S. W, CrJUniP.tJ·

the t~rmini of tlrc Southern and \Vestern mld the Northern Central systems. YVo have >pent a good of money 'in building a rail-way alu11g the NorTh Coa"St., of the princi-pal objects of which 1 ·as tu c a conHecti(JH between t}Je ~uu_thc:l'll :-;ytit\ Hl Ulld the (:elltral s:y 'torn, ruHl this Ilouso has been for years past diF-r;u;;.-sing at various hnlC"S projects for connecting the Central and ='forthern Railway. It is well nncleretood that if our railways. instt:'3d of bc·!ng Jisconnectcd, were conncctecl in one conLilluons :-3} f(:nl, thP cost ot nlall­agoment and ~cvol'king would be much less than it is, and the rc.,ulting profit would be htrger than it has hit.hcdo been. \Ye have, unfor­tunat.•ly, not been able to do as much in this direction in the pl>t as we had hoped to do, or as we are all agreed is desirable, and '! e are still lookillg forward to the time wl1en wo may be able to do that which wo haYo h;thorto found ouroolvcs unable to afford. The l10n. gcntlem::cn points out a '.;ay by which wo can accomplish this v'ery desirable end, lie says that we eau con~truct these connecting lines out of moneys derrved from the salc·co; of land. Perhap' that 1s so; but even if it \Yore possible to do that. we mi7ht have to pay too high a, price for the advantage that would result; at any rate, it :would be well to be assured that, hefore enter­mg upon the cour,e recommended by the hu11. g·entleman, it is a dc·irable course under all t~e circumstances. He has indicated in his view the great advantage that would resNlt from the c ·J.tstrnctimi of ra:\,-a.y~ in i.lH• X orth~ western and \Ypstorn countvv even if thev on!v •~Jordecl a .. u:cta.wav for stock·i;1 fuHire droll(rht~ He has indicated' that if we had the rail~ay~ which he has been advocatin~ when the last. drought came upon the country we would have saved in live stock sufficient property to cover the cost of constructing e-cen the lon!!est of tlw lines indicated on th'e map now befon: the Chamber. Now, the drought to which the hon. member refers was a drought quite with­out preceden.t in tho history of Queeusland, a1;d we may mdulge. tho hope that many years Will elapse before we sh<>ll have a drounht of equal _beverit.y. But, oveu suppo~iug w~ had the rallY\ ay the hon. g-entlen1a11 i:s advoc1tiu u·­

a raiLnty froru Chm~leville to ::\ orrnaniOIJ___:CH' from Cunnamulla or Thargomindah-to that part of the Gulf of Carpentaria, I am not in­clmed to agree that the result" that would ensue in time of droug'ht would be as beneficial as the hon, gentleman would lead the House i;o believe, because unfortunately it was the case, a; he has indicated in his remarks that the droug·ht was all-porvading·~it was ~10t a drought confined to any part of Queensland, rt was not confined E·ven to the whole of Quoensla:.d, but Tt, C'We.red practically the :vhol~ of .tiusttaha, and even if tho railway was m eXIstence---[ Mr. P. J. L.EAHY: They could have gone mto the nwat·Norks.] But the ten­dency on the patd- of the stockcnvllcrs, a:-s the hon. goutlenwJ.l i:-: ell U\\·arc_),~ is to hold on

tlwir stu-:k Ulttil th(~ vPry la. t rno1uent. _d XlLTO};": 'I' hat j:3 lunv thov lost ::;o

uf the districts.] L:l!r. P. J. could not belp it.': Thev are take thf' rnl1 tl,$2' Hl}uket Price.

and it ~o happens that 111 a. great n12.n~ ca~c:-. they hnld ou t.on citbf'r nntil the f..tock vet.s so poor tlwt are uot fit for ~aJ0 to t.bc n1ca~ 1~'o ·k·~. or that the"'"-' cannot travPl to the nearest railway statio;, I have no doubt that had railways been there it would strll have happened that a great number of stockowners would have held on in the hope that the drought would break, or that prices would improve, and that they would have held

[Hon. A. 1i1 organ,

on too long. anrl the resultant saving from the ~·ail vva~ s, c,~cn if they had been in existence-, \Yould not. have been Heady so great as the hem. gentleman is of opinion would have been the casc. In that aspect of the questwn, how­e-ver, tlH~re is a point for consideration as to whcr,, all the stock would have been removed to vvith the object of ~a..-in,G.· th1-~ir Jiyr.:;. ..L<\.:-: a wattf'r of fact, tl1t coa;5tal Ji:·,trict was already hca \Ti]y ovorstockcd, and the re::;ult of a nuin­hn of stock seeking sustenance in those di<­tricts woulc! simply have been to incrc'l.se the nnm bcr of those that perished. [~fr. P. J. LE 'HY: That '.muld not have bePn so in ordin,. nrv droughts.] We are not talking of ordinary dr()ug-hts. but of the extraordinary drought. through which thee States have so recentl:v passed. It is quite true that in the Gulf countr.. they were not affected by drought, but to haYe rnshcd the whole of the stock from \Vestcm QuPonsland m· Northern Queensland ,,m] the intermediate ·western districts to the Uulf country would probably have had the effect of eating out that country very quickly. and though no doubt manv of the stock that [Wi'ishc'd -might have bee,'; se.ved had that countrr b0en accessible by a railway, still I tali.c leave to doubt whether the ~--:.a"'~". ing wouk'i h<t vrc bc>en so large as thr hon. gentleman "·ou!d have the House believe. No doubt it may be conceded at once that a railway such D' the hon. gentleman indicates would afford a, getav~ ay in tin1es of stre"-'s of weather, and a gTc<tt aclvanbg-e to the State would result from that fact in time· of ordinary droughts, be­cans•, we have too many droughts undoubtedly, and a railway 1naking the Ea~t--'Tn country and dJP Uulf nsailablc to \Yestern .stock would saYt" losses that would otherwise accrue. I hope that notwithstanding the fact that we have for a time at least reached the end of our bor­mwing powcr.s-it would not pay the State to enter the money market possibly for years to come·-- I hope that notwithstanding this it ma." ~'et be possible to devise means of carrying out a policy of railway construction, and I 'luite agree with the hon. gentleman that we 'hould enter upon such a policy, and I hope that in all '""'' railway construction we shall have steadily in ,-icw the wisdom of building a railway which will serve the purpose of con­necting our exi. ting State systems, and also _..,prye t.he purpc .,c of providing \Ye," tern sto_k with a g·etaway in time of drought. There ure aspects of this question which the hon. g:entlf'man has raised that point to the con­clusion that the result might not be altogether as bcnldicial to the people of Eastern Queens­l:urd as it would be to the stockowners of \V est ern Queensland. Tho hon. member apparenlly had in his mind's eye a rail-

to connect Dourkc in New South \V ales the Gnlf of Carpentaria at Normanton. P . • ]. LE.\IlY: 1'1wt i~ not an cs:'iential

port of rny schcmf' at. all.l :'\o: Lut that is a part of the ::iChenw · ·bl~,h -t~tn l!OJL gentlcnu111

had iu his n-..incr;:; [_}Jr. P .• }. [·1.30 p.n1.] LE.HlY: That is at all nece

:::.J.rJ.] ~-\.11d i11 n1y judf: Inent, 1T< is not at all cJ,sirablo frou a (heensland point of vier. l~Ir. P .• J. LErU'Y: 1 did 11ot in-;ludL th~tt in 1n.y :.·-, he-:11L~.J ~o th.~ lion. r.:·ontloman u ,('d it ~l.." an arg L~nlmlt. a raihvay con~ llect-in<2; Bou.rkc ·ith mi:.::ht lmyo n:~ry disastrous C(JH~equollcc;-; to sorne of the ports on onr ca.·.ter11 ~.<::. l;oard. I arn Yory much jncli11ed to think that such a rail'.~. ,~y~ so far fr'Jnl praYing a ble<':.,:,ing, \H>u1d proY0 rather cur ,o to tu~YllS like Tovvnsville, Rock­hampton, and po..;~ib]y Brisbane. I ha-..-e no sympathy with the hem. gentleman in the advocacy of a railway system which would

Railttay Construction in [27 OcTOBER.] W'. •nd ;'V. W'. Countrp. 561

have the effect, pos•.ibly, of diverting from Townsvillc, Rockhampton, and Brisbane to Sydney much of the trade of the Queonslanrl back country which no·· finds its way over tho Que<'nsland raihcays. [:\li-. P .. J. LEAHY: That is not part of my motion.l The hon. gentle· man 18 quite right. but. I .lm pointing out tho result of such a policy if given effect to. [Mr. P. J. LEAHY: ~ot neces·arily.] lam not saying· it would neoe~~arilv follo-w Lut I sa,v -Lhore is a danger. \Ve are'told we'oLlg·ht.to think con­tinentally, but I am disposed to think that the people will expect us to act as Queen··­landers. fi\lr. P .. J. LEAHY: ()uocnslaud inh•­rosts ought to come first, certainly.] I,Ve ought never to forget the interests of Queensland. Tho hon. gentlE:man impressed the necesjty of thi_s raih·ay very strongly upon us so that we m1~ht con~erve tho interests of the pa.storal industry, but I recall the fact that on anoth<:"r occasion, vvhen a raihvay of this nature \VU.s

before the Chamber-a seriow; propo.sal-it found it:~ bittercstJ opponents ln the pa~torali~t~ whom 1t was sou~ht to benefit. The hou. gentleman has poi'nted out that it will have the primary efiect of protecti11g· the pastDTal industry against the dreadful foss \vhich ha, resulted during the pa"t fov: yca:rs. [:\lr( P. J. LEAHY: ·\Vould not that 'be a ge:wral benefit?] Of c~mrs.e it \rould, but primarily he advocated 1t m the interests of tho pastoral distTicts. IMr. J. .LEAHY: Look at the produce YO'li could send from the farming districts.] TheTe would not be 1nuch produce to send durin;::s a very severe drought. I am disposed to think that under present circumstances the pastoralists who formerly opposed the construction of such a line would not lJe so strongly antagonistic as they were twenty years ago. I am not dis­posed to offer serious objection to the pro­posal to build railways in \V e;tcrn Queensland with m,oney to be provided by the sale of land, but I do say that a condition precedent to the sale of land should be that we should have a provision written in the law that the State should derive a fair share of the value added to those lands by the construction of the rail­way at public expense. [Mr. P. J. LEAHY: You have that now under the .Land Act.l \Ye ha•, e not got it now. I think it is very doubt­ful whether we get a fair share of the added value given to the land through public ex­ponchture. I should iiko the hon. gentleman to have said, when achocat.ing the sale of these lands, whether he preposed to sell them before or aftm' the construction of the railway, [Mr. P. J. LEAHY: I do not care how you do it.l No; the hon. gentleman does not care, but I think that is an important consideration. l ~fr. DU}.;SFORD: Seeing that the price is to he 2s. Gel. an acrc.l IJ\Ir. P. J. LEAHY: I pre­fer to sell the land after.] I think that would be the safest pl.m. The hon. gentleman pro­fc ,,eel himself an advoc 1tc of the betterment principle, and, if he is. much of the objection to a project of this kincl would disappear. I believe the House woulcl be very generally ciisposod to rl'-~cognise that it is a fair thip.g to dispose of land to provide money to build this railway if the land was subject to a betterment tax after it had been disposed ·of. The hon. gentleman gave the distance of the line by the &everai routes shown on the map from Charle­ville, Cunnamulla, and 'Thargomindah. He shows that, acccrcling to his estimate of cost, the line couicl be built for something under £1,500,000, estimating the cost per mile at £1,500. I am inclined to think that the hon. member for Bulloo will disagree with the hon. gentleman's estimate. [Mr. J. LEAHY: The Richmond line was cheaper.] The Richmond line cost le~s than £1,500 per mile, but it was

1904--2 N

coustructcrl over favourable country. fiVlr. P. J. IJEAHY: This is just as favourable.] I think not. The Richmond lino was a very chc.1ply constru• ~eel line, unballasted, but I hardly think a lino of that character would serve' the nurpose which the hon. gcntltnnan 11as in vie'v, considering it is to be a n1ain liuo connec~ing with our existing main lines. But even suppc.,;ng he .calculated the co~t. per n1ilo on a 1,nwh 1nore, liberal sca.le, and sa1d it would cr.st £3,000 per mile, :;till I believe there is ,-cry much to be said in favour of the policy of building- a railway to connect the existin rr n1aiu Hnc s,~qtmns. \:Vhile I an1 not opposed to thr; genm~al terms of the motion, I think in rc"pect of No. 2, the House would do ;v~ll to con•ider seriou·ly whether it ought to adopt a resolution committin.<r itself to an expression of opinion that the Northern ter~ minus of the line :;hould be on the shores of the Gulf of Carpentaria. [_Mr. P. J. LEAHY: That is a detail.] It is somethipg more than a cletail. \Vhen we aTe proposmg to bmld a main line of railwaY we should have Tegard to the requiremenL not of to-day merely or to­morrow but of the future as far as we can anticipa'tc it; and, though the ~on. gentlen:an rather expressed himself as hoshlo to extendu:g the railw:ty further westward to a pomt m South Au~tralia, I am of opinion that the alter­native ::;chcmc has n1uch xnoro to recorrtmencl it than the scheme the hon. gentleman recom­mends. [.:\lr. P. J. LI:aHY: I said I preferred a tC.rminus in ~~ueen .. ]and.] Yes; so would I, other thing:-; hc/ng 0qual; but, if 'vc arG build ... ing a railway which the hon. gentlernan re­gards as a transcontinental railway, I am dis­posed to think we cou\d achi(jVC the purpose in view better by adoptmg a d1fferer:t route to that which he has advocated. I thmk a lme ~tarting fron1 CharlevilJe to Longreach, VVin­ton. Richmond and Cloncurry, and then on to Port Darwin', "ould serve lJuoensland's in­terests and indeP l Australian intere-sts, much hotter 'than a iino on eithPr of the routes which the hon. geutlo1nan advocates tenninating at Normanton or any other point in the Gulf of Carpcntaria, or at any ra.te at any pomt on the southern shores of the Gulf. After all, in con­sidering a raihvay of the importance a line from Southern l~uoenslancl to the northern shores of Australia would be, we ought to have regard to the possibility of employing that railway for international trade purpos~s, and if you make the northern seaboaTd termmus at Normanton there is not much hopo, I am afraid, of a lino of steamers connecting with that rallwa:; sy~ten1 competing . HUCC(Y .;fully v'lith existing linE's of steamers rf on every journey they are required to comE' nearly 50() miles south of the main trade route to get to Normanton, and then g·o north auotheT 500 miles to get round to the eastern seaboard of Australia. That would mean on every journey outward and home'.:arcl a deflection in­volving a journey of 1,000 miles. Now, if you had the terminus at Port Darwin, it would he open to the objection that it would bo in another State, but you would have it where the water facilitiE's are much better than in the Gulf of C'1rnentaria, and you would ha,ve it at a point which would not involve any ap· prooiatle deflection from the ordinary trade route. 'l'he hon. gentleman has indicated that a stean1 servicR connecting with tho line he advocates would have many ad­vantages as to time over other routes to Australia, and so it undoubtedly would; but the advantage would be much greater if the railway terminated at Port Darwin than it would be if the line terminated at Normanton or any other part of the Gulf of Carpentaria.

Hon. A. M organ.]

562 Railway ConSti'ttdion in [ASSEMBLY.] W. and N. TV. Cuuntr;IJ·

Point Parker was the original terminus con­templated by Sir Thomas I\'Ici!wraith. A railway from Longrcach to Port Darwin would involve something over 1,000 mik3 of construc­tion, about half of which would be- in Queeno­land and i.hc other half in South Australia. I think tlut we cannot afford to put down the cost of construction at less than £2,000 per mile ; and, in considering a proposal of this kind, Queensland would have to fact" her fair share to the extent of about £1,000,000. See­ing that the steam mail service would connect the railwav svstt:'m at Port Darwin and con­tinue acroes t2ucensland to Townsville and Brisb11ne, thoro would be an advantage of four or five days in time. Quecno.land would then be in a much high0r position to compete for the attentions of the steam services than now if such a line were built, and we would have a service that wonld compare favourablv with the services now plying to the great Southern c•tpitals. I think that the steam service phase of the question ought to be held steadilv in rcm0mbrance '\vhen we are considering tians­continenal railway propo·,.als, and, although I agree with the hon. member in the general principle of the motion, I think we should make the ::\f orthern terminus in Queensland if possible. That is why I sav I think it would be wiser under all the circmnstances to adopt the South Australian seaport terminus than to nropose a tc rrninus on the southern shores of the Gulf of Carpentaria. I have no seriEms objection to offer to the hon. member's motion other than I ha1·o just indicated. We are all ?isposecl to recognise the good that will result If we can protect the \V estern country from the. results of future droughts. and that it is desirable to eonn"ct the existing lines with other lines. I .only regret that the means at our disposal Will aot enable us to realise as quickly as we desi:c the object. as to th0 desirableness of which we are all agreed upon. I would ask th~ House to consider seriously b~fore comm1t~mg Itself to thP opinion that mthcr of the; hnes the hon. member suggests should be bmlt, and also that, before the House. commits itself to the l?olicy of selling lands on a la,ge scale to pronde for the construction of oven such desir·ablc 'r?rks as railways~ vvc shall make sure tlut the mtorests of the State m thoJo lands, If parted ·with, arc amplv preserved. '

HoN. R. : I ><m pleased that the hon. mcmb'.'r Vvarrego has initiated this debate. It rs much more intcrPsting >tnd it j, m'!ch more for the well-being of the people of this country to discuss this than to discuss ta"ation proposals. I was rather amused at the Premier's reference to the in­tcncests of Southern Queensland. He does not .,.ecm tc care a fig for the intPresL of the North .or the Gulf country. vVhat is the use of talkmg about building a lino to Port Dar­win? 'That place belongs to South ~\ustralia. am1 I do not think there is the slightest chanc~ of the Gove,nm(mt of South Australia build­mg a lme from Port Darwin to our border They are trying to build a line from Adelaid~ to Port _l)ar~vin. Ti_ley have already built part of rt-abou, 120 rmles from Port Darwin to Pme Creek, and also a considerable distance f~om the other end, so that there is only a difference of 700 or 800 miles between the two-say, 1,000 miles. Enormous inducemenb J::avc been offered to capiblists to build that lme-;-about 80,000 a<?r<:>s .Per mile-but they are no~ mclmed to burld rt ; and if no one wili bmld that lnoe, what iikclihvod is there of anv one. connec~ing such a line with Queensland.? Besrdes, tills Port Darwin scheme was talked

[Hon. A. M organ ..

about bventy-fivc years ago, vvhen the \Vhole of the trade from Great Britain was coming throuL"h the Suez Canal; but now the nearest mute

0

Will be through the Panama Canal. [The 1'HE1TIER: And much to the advantage of t)uecnsland.] Yes. And for that reason I do not support the Port Darwin line. \V e have already a small finger in the business, t.J:~·ough our connectwn with Vancouver and FrJI, and if the Panama line is built I hope· the Federal Government will not forget that Queensland is the first port of call and the nearest port of call. l think \\'e might have the Port Darwin line alone. [The H0}1E SECRETARY: Don't you think the Panama line being built is a strong objection to this scheme?] No. I think that if this scheme was carried out it would open up the \Vest of Queensland. [The HoME SECRETARY: It is a. schen1o to get us more closely connected with the old country.] I do uot think that was contemplated, for there has been the greatest trouble to get a line of .-tcamers to call at Thursday Island, and they only call there once a month. In this respect I sac- that we arc worse off now than \VP \,ere ten or twelve years ago. I think that the policy of the past~ia trying· to get the \\.est connected with the East--is the beet policy. [~\lr. GRANT: Don't vou think that that scheme will do nim·8 to concentrate tradP in Br-isbane.l I do not think so. [l\lr. MAXWEI,L: 1 f ave you forgotten that there is such a place as Rock­hampton '] l\o; I leave Rockhampton out of the question now. I think that a !ins should be built connecting the Clermont. district with Chartero Tower ... , especially a.s there is a population of 55,000 between Cler­n1ont and Charter::; Towers. There is very good agricultural and mineral country there. There is no doubt that. the bc,t coal for rail­way pm·pos< s in Queensland is found in the Clermont district. ll\lr. GRANT: No.] I am as much interested in the Dawson coal-not in a n1onetary sense-as artyone, and vvhile I \~as in office I did every thing I could to givE" this Dawsm1 coal a £air trial. It was tried on OHC of I-Iis l\laje·,ty'>"i ~hip;_.:, and it was said ~o he a good coal. if 1nixed ~Yith 1-'0me other coal. \Yould anyone. who klwws anything· about Yt~ssels requiring coal, ~npposc that a H'S,c'l would take some o£ this coal and then go to Newcastle and get coal there to mi> 1vith it. The thing was prcposh L'ous. I havP seen the Clcrmont coal, and it is the be, t coal ~n t~ucensland for use on our railways. · {Th0 PREJ'~IER: Do ~Tou say that. that is said iu the ·repc,~~t of the~ llajlw'ay Departrnent '!] -y-es; it was report<>d to be the best. coal in Queens­land for loeornotive, If the Pre1nier \Vent and _ aw the coal he would admit that. ['The PRE11IER: I prefer to take the opinions of ex­

Well. that is the written opinion of experts in the department. You will fin cl 1 an1 right) for I have seen the coal and

rnade inquiries about it.. Timber fc"'_' is ~~etting very scarce in the Charters

district; they are rmporting coal from 1110 there. I think that using this coal

w~ntld_ make the line I suggeSt pay. Person-ally, l advocate the extension of main lines­the CunLe~mulla line to Thargomindah; tbe extension of the Richmond line to Cloncurry. Thi, will come some day; and if a syndicate ~onst.ruct tlw line to the Gulf, so much

the better. I have no doubt that l5 p.m.J we could sell sufficient land to

pay fm· the cost of the construe· tion of this line. Then we would get the enhanced value before we sold the land. We would get for the land what it was really worth. That is very much better than selling land at the price now with some contingency.

Railr•ay Construdion tn [27 OCTOBER.] 563

The buyer would very likely over-value that contingency. It would be much better if we could arrange to build those lines, reiH'rving alternate blocks of land, and selling the land aftN the lines were built. \Ye might get 12. or £1 an acrc for it, but we would be mo•·" likely to got what the land was really worth. I think the Home Secretarv will bear me out when I say that the land between Richmond and Uloncurry is excellent pastoral land. 'There i.o no better sheep country in quecn"land. Bore water can be struck at depths of 1,200 to 1,4-00 feet, and the whole of that country could be brought under sheep. much of it being at present under cattle. If ,,.e extended the three main lines as I have suggested, that would occupy our attention for a good many years, ancl we v,ould be doing 'ome good all the time, and building lines that would be likely to pay. I would <Jertainly pre­fer to -'c<' our lin<'i' taken furtlwr \Y csl-, as everv mile :wm ~o \Yeot you open up countrv. B~· joiuing our trnnk lines you only open up th~ .land to the west; but by extending them to the west, you open up land on both sides. [The c:lJ.:CRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: We have gone quite far enough \Vest.] I do not think so. The lines to the \V (F.t are all payin~ lines. [The­HO)lE SECRETARY: The Northern line pays nearly G per cent.] It has a balance of £500,000 or £GOO, 000 to its credit, after paying mterest and workmg expenses. I was in hopes that the Secretary for Railways would give us some indications of his railway policy. \Ve were told during the elections by tlw :-;ecrctary for Lands that the building of light lines and selling the land to pay for them was one of the planks in th" Government platform. I shall not object to the building of as manv lines as the Govern­ment like in ·agricultural districts, so long as the \V estern lands arc not sold to pay for thoi'e lines; but I would strongly object to ;;e!lmg \V e·,tern la.n<ls to pay for lines in ,gricultural districts near the coast. Thet would not be fair at all. If the S,' cre-tary for Railways \vants to rr1ake a dfart in building railways aud then selling· the land, I am quit0 certain he could not do better t-han by extending the line from Cunnamulla _'o .'rhargomindah. by extending the Central Railway from Longreach-[The PRDHEH: \Ve aro told the Thargomindah country is being thrown np because the lessees cannot pay the ;·ent.}--and the !me from Richmond to Cion­curry. [l\lr. ::\lA:.;:c;;: That is the line vou said in Cairns you did not want.] I did n~t say in Cairns that I did not ,._ant that lin<>. I was "!CCUSC'd in ('"'irns of Wanting to build a Jine from Townsville to Georgetown, and I said dis­tinctly that I never said anything about build­ing such a lino. [.i\lr" .:\tANK: I said you wanted to bmld the !me from Richm<_>nd to Cloncurry.] \Vhat busmcs, has the Cairns people with iJloncurry? [:'dr. I\L-I.N;o.;: If ToWJ"vi!le get. a rine to Cloncurry. the Cairns people will not get to Cloncurry.J If Cairns gets a line to (}eorgetown, they are exceedingly "\\'BJl off. If the Government. build a line to Georgetov.·n I say it ought to go from Croydon. but I .,,·ould not oppose a lina from Almaclen to Ueorgetmvn. By all means let the people in the Cairns district have the line. hut as to a. line to Cloncurry you might a~ well try to connect Southport with Cloncurrv ,;id Cairns. [Mr. I\:IANN : we will be satisfied with the line to Georgetown.] The hon. member is very modest. I would not object to allowing cor­porations to build these W os tern lines, but I do not think they have any intention of offer­ing, because the State already has all the lines to the coast, and it would not pay any corpora-

tion to build a rail way, say, from Cunna-mulla b Thargornindah, as thc•y would have to pay very high rates to tlw Government for their coal and all the stuff that would havc to pa" over the State lines. But it is quite possible that some corporation might br- indnced to build a line from Richmond to Cloncurry, and I wonld like to know if the Secretary for Rail­ways is clisposed to assist any corporation de­siring to build that line? [The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: You have prevented that for some y<'ars.] How have I clone that? [The SECRE­TARY FOR RAILWAYS: Because the Nor­manton-Uloncurry sYndicate have an option for two years.] But that does not pre­vent the Government building a line from Richmond to Cloncurry. [The SECRE­TARY FOR RAILWAYS: I think it does.j Not at ali. \Vhv, a line from Eichmond to Cloncurry would 'help a line from Ne>rmanton to Cloucnrry, and Titc vcr.,a. [Mr. GRANT: Like the tramways help the railways about Brisbane.] Through communication to the Gulf has always been a part of the railway policy in Queensland. \Vhen Sir S. IV. Grifllth brought in h;s £10,000,000 loan, it in. eluded pmvision for a. lino from Normanton to U!oncurry, and there was also so much for the \V estern lines. The late Commissioners, l\lathicson and Gray, had several alternate schemes for connecting Normanton ana the Northern Railway. We have enough of these fragmentary lines in Quol'nslancl now, and we should try and join them. That is one of the objects the hon. member for Warrego has in Yiew in introducing this motion. We cannot linl"- up all thPse linps in one year or in ten years, but it ought to be our policy to keep that end steadily in view. 'The first thing we ohoulcl do. howev<'r, is to earrv our trunk lines further vY cwt, and the!! connect them when we can afford to do so. But the first conection should be as Ilf :Ir the coast as possible in order to be near the largest possible popula­twn. \Ye cannot afford to build ra-il ways unless there is some rct.'onablc chance of their paying interest a11d working expenses~ and passengers pay as ·well as any other fonn of traffic. I am 'atidiod that. if a line is built between U!crmont and Charters Towers therP \··ou!d be a big pac engor traffic. ' [Mr. TOL]IIE: ~VVould you connPct Charters Towers directly with Clcrmont '] I am not a railway l'nginc~or. Sorae people ach~o{ ate making the c ,nuection with Pentland. on the Northern Raihvay; other'· advocate rl1aking it at Ravens­·wood: \vhilc others, a.&~ain. iavuur counectiru.;· Charters rl10W8l'R direCtlv with Clermont. I would build the chcap.est line. no matter wlwthn it was 20 m· 30 miles one side or the other. A line of that sort would pay •·cry much better than a line from Longreach to Wintou. [Mr. GRAKT: \V hat can they land coal for in Charters Towers now?] I conld not say, but I should think about £1 5s. g

ton. lf a line were built from Clermont to C'harters Towers, howevc1·, it would not cost more than 15s. or lGs. a ton. and better coal than they 110'-"1 get. fl\.Ir. GRANT: That would be at the rate of .\d. a ton per mile.] L has been carried for less than that ill South Afric.1. and it could be carried as cheaply in QuecnEland. [}Ir. GHANT: Tho Commissioner will not· quote as low a rate as that now.] Such large quanLitics of coal would be required at Char­ters Towers that special coal trains could be rkspatched, and it would pay the Commis­sioner to carry the coal at as cheap a rate as ~d. a ton per mile. The further goods" are carriccl the cheaper the rate per mile. · The rates for 400 miles, for instance, are some­thing likc 25 per cent. lower than the rates for

Hon. R. Philp.]

564 Railu·ay Consirllction in [A.S8EMBLY.J W. and N. W. Cowztr,y.

100 miles. In America they carry stuff as low as orw-eighth of a penny per mile for long rlistanccs. I hope the Government will do eomet.hing in the direction of railway construc­tion. The country expects some work to be undortnkt.~n, and, in the interests of the country, ;,'C cannot afford tn allow things to stagnate. \V e u.nnot afford to sit down and · 1y we ha vc gone the length of our tether. A lin•· like that from Cle1:mont to Charters 'rowers is as necf·~Fary as any lino in Queens­land. rfho COnntry \Youlc1 save a large amount in mail subsidie.', and the line would be tho rneans of ruaking the prospects of Charters 'To" ers n1oro assure cl. ~L\t the lower levels they have large bodies of ore that do not con­tain much gold to the ton. but which would be work v] if wo could save them 5s. or 10s. a ton on their coal. r:l~hat is a very large iton1. Besides. the 25,000 people of Charters Towers ·.c.ould be bronght within easy neach of the Southern portion of l~uePuRlaml. TherE' arp people in Charters Towers who never travel beccmse they dre1.t! the s< a voyage, and they wouhl c:)n1e South if there v,;as utilway corLl­munication. There arc also large quantities of silver and lead ore along the route of that line There m·e silver mines at Sollheim and other place·,, which would all bring traffic to the rail v ay. Tt ore is also some good sheep coun+ry to the north of Clermont, as well as some good agricultural land. On the vvhole, while I am dicposcd to assist the hon. member for \V arrego to carry his motion, I would rather see our main lines carried further \Vest; and as time rolls on and we have a larger population ancl a bigger revenue, and there is a pos;ibility of selling land, we could build the connecting linos. In the mean­tiiHe, instead of talking about the line to Pmt Darwin, I think we should con­sidm· the advisability of extending our lines westward 100 or 200 miles, and connecting the trunk lines. I think it would be a good thing for the State. At the present time the best paying line: arc the.main lines~the Southern and \V, 'torn, the Coutral, and the Northern li!lO. The Northern line is the best paying line in Quc 0 nsland. Anv stranger coming to Queensland and looking "at our returns would at onc_e see which lines are paying, and say that they should be extended. \Ve have a knowledge of the country~the Gountry is good, and you ·would be going into good sheep country, where bore water is easily obtainable. If you extend a lino further out, it does not cost much more to run it than at the present tinw---the san1(~ engines and staff arc sufficient. Instead of waiting three or four hours at a w--minus, the:· go further \Vest in the same time. 'No want to compete with the drought ,_,nd the ra:bb1ts, and w<> can only do that by lurther rmlway oxtonslQu. 1-J\fr. HAHDACRE: why are you not m fayom· of extensions from :South to North!] Because you do not open up now country. The count!·,. from North to bouth is to a t ,_::rtain E'-::t~nt caterea ior already, but every_ mile_ you go 'Nest you m·e extendmg the raclms of vour railwav benefit and the co_unLry is benefited. I arn i'1ot going to talk this m 0 asure out. I think it is the opinion of all sides of the House that it is Jesirable to open up the country. Un tho wholo, I think (~ueensland has been '""'Y en­terprising in time pa;t. People complain about .the enormous public debt we have. You will find the Railway Commissioner says we

i owe £40 per head for railway construction­~·>more than half our debt; it is the heaviest

debt per head for railway construction of any of the States. \Ve have a good asset, ar,d I think we have done well in building most of

[Hon. R. Philp.

the iE' rail ways. If it had not been for the· \Vinton line, which opened up the country, and the bores which wore put down, all 1hc people would have cleared out of the disLri<;t. ~ Tho HO::\IE SECRE'TARY: There is no dott.bt about it. J [iVh. HARD ACRE: The Win ton ox­tension ln::; bc0n losing; money ever s~nce it. \vas built. J H was built in a drought. [:\Ir. HARD.',CRE: You say it is be·-,t to build railway lines \Vest.] i'J\1r. KERR: It pays hotter than the Springsure line,] It loses nothing at all. because the Northern Railway carries th0 \Vinhn line on its back, and there is a surplus every year on that railway. [1\lr. HARDAORE: I am speaking of the extension, which lost £8,000.] Take the line from Townsville to \Yinton: it shows a profit. You must take the whole of the line from Townsville to Winton. not part of it. cannot go and take the line fron1 here to oon1.~;a, and tbf::"n go frorn Toov·oqmba to soH.lC' int.Prme-diatz"' june­tion, and thPn to \VatT i..r·k, splittin.G· thP Eue in plecf '--you ntust '(,lkP the line as a ·whole_ [Mr. HARDACRE: The extended ,vctio;I has had a lms.] I say indirectly it has saved that part of the country. lf that line had not been built; to \Vinton, tho whole of that countr> would have been abandon.ed. fl\h. HARDO.<'n£: I am not opposed to the line to the South, only to the Wrst.] This lino h~:s saved that part of the country. I know a great deal of the Win­ton stock r::tme on to the coast at Townsvillc aud was saved b(-K:a.usB that line Yl as built. I also know a great deal of the stock a littlE. further went to the Gulf, and those stook wer< savecl. There were hunclreds of thous.:-nds of stock saved in Queensland during the drought because we had railways. I say if we had more railways it would have saved more stock. I remember that in part of the country about Camooweal there was room for millions of sheep during the drou;.,ht. [An honourable­member: They died going there.] Yes; but those that got there ,,,·ere all right. In the country round the Gulf there was a lot saved. If the lino does not pay directly it will pay in­directly. The sheep we have is an asset. [Mr. J::L'\.HDACRE: I ain in fa;vour of extension from .:'-iorth to South, not to the \Vest.] There are more sheep in the \Vest than in the North anr' t-louth. I am afraid I cannot please tho hon. member for Leichhardt, and I cert-ainly will not, as his own colleague has said, bril1g up the Springsure line. [Mr. HARD ACRE: I did not build the Spring-,ure line.] The hon. mem­ber for Lcichhardt is a well-meaning man, and he sometimes takes a grasp of things, but h0 somellmes g-ets hold of a little thing and picks It to pl8ces~m fact, he will almost skin a hare sometimes. I wish him to think of the whole of the :State, am] r.ot confine himsPlf to the little things in his own electorate. l under­stand liO district in the Stat'l suffered more from the drought than his electorate~ tho stock could not get _a way. We really want rnuro ra1lway construction 111 Queensland, and there aro some places even now where it would pay to borrow money to build lines, but apparontly the Government have made up their mind to borrow no money. If they are n'?t proparEld to borrow they should contract w1th corporations to bmld them, who will bmld them on good terms. [Mr. HARDACRE: I ~n1 ent_ircly in favour of getaway railways bmng built.] The only way to obtain. a get­away by the hon. member would be to extend his own line. [Mr. HARD ACRE: Y on mean north and south ~o Longreach, and all that.] I do not agree With you. If you went south­\\'l.:st from Long-reach you would open up new country altogether; the other country~ Long­reach, Hm;henden, and \Yinton~is opened up. I only wish other people were served as well. I

Railwa_y Cunstru~tion in [2'7 OcToBER.] }IT. und N. W. CuuntT_y. 565

hopr we shall soon get some information from the Government _as to what lines they are gem_, to btuld thrs year. If there arc going to "be any rail ways proposed, they ought to be betorc the House now. I agree with the Pre­mier that we could build linos as cheaply now as It 1s poss1ble to do. If they could be built for £1,000 a mile, of course we have an ad­Ya>Jtago tlPre. [The HoJ>m SECRETARY: There arc .-cry few ere '•ks worth talking a bout.] That is the case with the Western country­they can go further on. [Mr. GRANT: It is not the case with the lino suggested this after­llUOn. J I believe .v:e can build a lino as cheaply

··· as they can m any part of Australia or world. Now we have got to bedrock I sav

wo are ju,•ifid in pushing out linos we thini, are likely to pay. You talk about the Port Darwin lino-extend the present lines we have. :~

1

he _Y.T os~eru lines even pa:.- better than the :tar;IJ:~ng linos, bllt I have no objection to sup­P lrt i1!1.V line where I am satisfied that the land

that lino will pay for the constrnctiou of hdc. If the Government want to build lint I ~ a.y they could not do better than C""';:-

T:t<rrc~ , the PTE" trunk lines, starting fron1 }],OCKtlampton, r~J..10\Vl1Svillc, and from Bt·is'·lHO. Our railway policy is perhaps one of 1n1portant thin:.~·s vve call talk on m I would much rathf'l' talk rail-wa lhaa taxation, and I hope the Govcrn-

vlill lC't us knov·. vvhat _line.s the:; purpose before us t 1us sc.-)slon.

".\Ir. TOL:\HE (JJmyton rnicl Too~c·oom/}(J): It is '10~ often that I clCJim the attention of this I-Ion· ' on Tlnu ~:-L~y a.ftor11oon, but I desire to ,,u_v "" little in connection V'ith this motion. I

~tu:~ that the~ hon. gentlornan who iHtro-·;(•cl it does !lot expect that the motion will

cun1c- to u diYi~;lon this evening. [:0.lr. P. J. LEAHY: I woe 'cl like it to do but. I do not ..;uppn~:e it \vilJ.] But. \Yhethf'l; it con1~)S to a di\ i.sion or not, l an1 suro that the discussion \Vhich has taken plac'·} upon it will create an intcrc~t in it not onlv in this 1-Tou;:;c but thP countr-y a'" wc•ll that' will lead to SOIT10thing practicoJ b\'ing Jono a~ a not very distant date. The discussion o£ the n1otion cannot do harm and I bolieYe it \,·ill do a considerable amounf oi good. l ha.-c always hold the opinion that tht-n't' should be a conn.Jction between the half acro· H1e State I think 110 ct·eat harm by man_v that WC' ba.-o not sent o;,r lines far unough out \V est yC't, and that thev should ..;t]ll go further Lt'fore the connection "ls made~ hut as tho \V cstcl"ll ha.-c gone more than h~lf a.cro:;is the ~tate. think no great harn1 could be done, but a great amount of good ~ ·, ould follo,v, 1f \VP ·v eec to coinle-ct the variou~ links. At the present time there is a connec-ion between the Southern lino and the Cen­

tral line, but therP Is no connection between the CentLl and the J\'orthe= lines. I should iikc w sPe that cc,nnoctiou takt• plac<'. and. although I am not a~ well acquainted wi£11 the countr_v in the; U::ntrul and Northern districts as the ,leader of the Opposition, I think myself t!~at t11e connectJon should take place at the \~, estorn tor:mnli nt the present ti.tne-that is, fron1 \Vintnn to Longreach, and so on from Longreach to Charlcville. If that were dom• it; v ould be quite pcl'sible in times of drought: .;il.lCh as we ha.Yc ex:per1encecl recently, for a

pror>ortion of the stock of this ·state to .-:.aYcd, and) ap,·, rt altogether from the que~-

of saving the stock, I think it would have been of immense service to Queensland had we been ablo to avail ourselves of the resources of the Gulf country during the drought. [Mr. FonsYTH: Thev were availed of to a certain "-·xtcnt.l [Mr. l" . .J. LEAB:Y: To a small ex-

tent.] They were a,-ailed of to a small extent, but, had \VC bem1 bring stock fron1 the ~,Jrthcrn por' ~ )ll State down to the capital of th• Stat,,, there were many thousands of in the city of Brisbane alone, who to pay exorbitant price,, for their lnf<LD ;-,u.pplie~. aud Tvhn had frequently to go "\Vitbout tho~c :"Upnlics~ ho vvould havt-.., lJeen PJ'f'~~.tly L-enefiterl. In that respect there -would bf' a lar,~:;-t~ arLO!Jnt of Inoney for di~tribution lJ:, other nw _,_u::'i, and I think 1ha.t is a vi0v;r wortby of consideration as well as the que-stion of saving our stock. I

think if a connection is to be madc [5.30 p.m.J ii. should be made. alnnp: tlw

1 Y c te-rrni11als., LP cause if that were done tlP fr.:Jm the J\lorth to the metropolitan an<n, about one-third of th0 population is concentrated, would bo very much lesS<''"'-]. I alw look at the question from th,, point of view of how it will aff(,ct the Soutlwm districts. It has been pointed out b~, the hem. nwrn her for \V arrego that tlw \V estern people would be .-cry glad to avail themselves of t.he opportunity of takjng fodder from the­Southcm districts which they are unable at prC'<en t to ilo. knoy.- from hearsay of ono ..,t;njon .in tlw Soutb-\v£'st which ~pi' nt during­the dron~ht £60,000 on fodder from the Darling Dowds in orrkr that tlw stock might bo kept alive. P. ,J. LEAHY: That was near a r<tih,:ay )~ cs, close to the railway, and tbo whil<> >'PPnding £1 a bead to keep aliw, at the same time did u grl'a1· sf'rYice t~' th~) Nout.l1-eastPrn part of: the State'. \Ye• would. tlH refor<, benefit con­,id< mbh· bv the constnwtion of such a line as that proposed. At th,• present time on the Drn·n" anrl in the i\1oreton district we cannot get £1 a ton for our lucerne, but, if there was a pc"- ;bility of it b . .ing stored and used when drought unfortunatPl~ came along, the pro­ducers would got a fair return for their labour. UnfmtuiMtely, it would be at the expense of others, bnt. eYC'n that wonlcl be better than that all the stock should perish. There is one other point which was mentioned by the leader of the Opposition em which I would say a few words, and that is the- connection between. Chartces Towers and Clermont coalfields. It is hi~hly desirable in the interests of the min­ing- inclustrv that such a connection should be marlc>. Fro"m information which I was able to acquire when visiting those parts I found that the industry ,,.·as very much hampered through tho cost of coal at Charters Towers, >tncl if they cot!ld get cheaper fuel there would he an innncdiate improvement in mining clovelopnlP!lt. I am strongly sympathetic tO V. cUds that line being constructed whenever the finances of the State permit, Now we como to the question of the construction of the proposed line of railway dealt with by the rnotion. and the· rncan;-) by ''rhich it is to be colls!Tuctcd. If n1v !Hf'lnor·v~ serye~ nv correctly, there is a line· in Queeirsland­

from Dalhv to Roma-that was entin+· by thP ~a!~' of land. and 1shich cost thB

abJolntt'ly nothing· :-;o far forcig:n concerned. Parllan1ent p~ '",~ed ,:,-hat.

thP "\Y (' tern H.aih\ a v La11cb land \Ya~ ,".Jolcl a~1d the ·proceed~

the- purpof'P of railway C011· the mdv ,-ailwav built bv that

tov ·which .{ ht:.YP rC'fPrred. to thr- en= Jit of that fund a

when t!ueensland fell into at \Vhcn the late

took chargP of the it "'a~ neces0ary to square thH

and h · tran ,.ferrcd the sun1 o£ fron1 the Taihvay trust account t.o

1vf r. Tolmie.J

566 Rai11ca;1; Cunstruction in [ASSEMBLY.] TV. and JY.TV. Country.

l'CY81lUE', Ulld thPrf'

apace. when

an! with

COlJstructcd. t1 j tJneeusland 1

cttlemc-nt in \vould have to-da'~-. 1 111y l~e.J.rl"y LaYc Lcen

~lr. GRA:YT (RodJuunp[o ,_): I dnnot see-my "\Vay r-lear to vote for the r..wtion a~ it stands. I do not think the hon. member for \Varrego could have gone very fully into the matter. For instance, he ::::.vys that this line can be con­structed as cheaply as the Richmond line. I find that there is not a single creek crossed by that line, awl no engineering dif!icultieti what­ever are presented. Let any lion. member study the map and follow the three routes which have been proposed, and he will see that any of them crosses at le~st a dozen rivers and three ranges ; and, moreover, I am told that in the wet season the route of the line between Cloncurry and N ormanton is practicall v under water. [Mr. }'ORSYTH: Non,ense.] \V ell, people who have been thAre tell me that that is so. Another of the lines crosses the Rtrcoo, Thompson, Dia­mantina, and Flinclers, besides a number of tributary creeks. I, therefore, do not think it is possible to construct the line for anything like £1,.500 a mile. The other point is that the railway ohould be built by selling land at 2s. 6d. an acre. The people out there contend that they are very heavily taxed already when they pay from ±cl. to ld. per acre rent for their land. If they pay 2~. !id. an acre for the free­hold they will pay l~d. an .:tcre; nnd do you think that the present occupants will be willing- to do that? I Mr. P .. J. LEAHY: Why do they give 10s. an acre for land'!] They give it for other reason,s. They want tu pick the eyes out of the country in order to prevent the land from being taken up by stuailer men ; it consolidates their holdings. I hav,, never yet 1nt>t any 1nan who was content to pay 10s. an acre for land for the pur­pose of grazing sheep upon it, and who hoped to make f1 profit. Ag-ain, I am against cnnnecting these lines. I r1m in favour of the scheme proposed by the hon. member for Townsville-the exten­sion of the existing trunk line'. :\-Iany years ago we had a, cert~tin well-ddined railwav policy. There ":'ere three trunk lines stretching out frmn Rnsbane, Rockhatnpton, and 'fownsville; each of the tenninal ports were to have the trade nat-urally belunging to them, and the lines were to run due west. The Central line followed that course; the X orthern line ,, as run fairly dne west until it reached H ug-henden, but then political influence was broug-ht tn bnr to carry it due south to \Vinton, in order to get the trade which used to; go to Rockhampton. Then, so far as the s .. uthern line is concerned, instead of

[Jir. Tolmie.

running dne west it ha.« a northern tendenc~~ until it reaches Charleville. The comequence ;, that the Central line is hemmed in on both side', and trade i;; tapped trom both sides. If the \Vinton trade should geographically go to To\vnsville, \vhat about the Rtationd round ab0nt Ta1nbo, which are geographically nearer Jlock­harnpton tban Bri:-;bane? And yet, in conse­quence of the milway policy being altered, the trade goes to Brisbane. I fJ.il to ,ee how the me111ber for \Varreg1) is going to show a protit by t.he construction of thi' line. He claims that it will only cnst £1/>00 a rni]e to construct. [::\Ir. p_ ,r_ LE.iHY: I •--aid that it. >vould con1e within 1 per cent. ot }Jaying inturo:. '-it. J It is a question whether this continnal shifting of stock down to the cnnst and back again to the stations pays the pastorali,;ts-whether in tilue~ of drought it would not be more profitable to send their Htock Btraight a\vay tu the boiling­down or meat work~, nr eYen to cut their throats on the 'te~tion;;. I know one member of I'"rlia­Inent who -.;hifted his stock four tin1es down tu the coast and hack again to his s• ation, and hP suffered a heavy los-,-the sheep were v, Ol'th £2 10". per head on the station. The contention of the hon. rnetnlJer for rroOWOOlnba SeeiW"'d to be tlmt all the re,;t of the State should suffer or be taxed for the benefit of the Dading Downs. I do not think that the policy of connecting trunk lines has been a profitable one. Take the coast line. I sav that that line should ne.-er have be.en built, ~nd, if it hac! to be built at all, it should not have gone further than Gy:npie. [Mr. Tonrm: Did you not advocate the hne to Rockhampton ?] Yes; in my foolishne--B I did. I doubt .-ery much whether that line ha" been a profitable one for the Railway Department, and I am sure it has been a mo't unprofitable line for Hockhamptnn. The Gladstone extension has only paid lL. 7d. ov·er working expenses, [An honourable mwn ber : Then you don't believe in the extension between Gladstone and Rock­hampton ?] X o. \Vith regard to the sug-gestion of the leader of the Opposition that Clermont should be connected with Chctrters Towers, it ;,, a moot point whether that would be advisable. There is no doubt that Charters Towers is m a flourishing condition now, but the life of a gold­field is precarious ; we cannot say how lam; it will be in the same condition. [Mr. l'on­SYTH : It has been going- on for the last quarter of a century.] YeB, and I hope it will go on for another quarter of a century; bnt building a line to a goldfield is not the same a-· building a line to a pastoral district. [An hon­ourable member : \V hat about Mount Morgan ?] That is a very good paying- line, but it is a short line. The line from Clermont to Charters Towers wonld be about 200 miles, and, although there is some fairly good pastoral land between Clermont and Avon Downs, between Avon Downs and Charters Towers there is a lot of had conntry, and it is questionable whether it would pay to build that linP. Say it earried 2,000 tons of coal per week over 200 miles at ~d. per what profit woulcl that he to the l:tailway partment? I would rather see the Govern­ment build tribntan lines out from the trunk lines and extend the X orthern line from Eichmond to Cloncurry, the Central line down the V alley of the Thompson, and tht­Sonthern trunk line out \Vest. If that wcere done the lines would go through good pa.-;toral country and th·•·y would be profitable to the de­partment. But I think the extension shnuld start and end there. I do not see that it would be any advantage to the State by burdening the people with the co;;t of constructing lines for the mere ,;entimental idea of joining the trunk lines, That would mean that the taxpayers would have to pay heavily for them.

Paper. [27 OcToBER.] In eo. 'le J'aJ:, Etc., Bill. 567

Mr. HARD/tClm (Lcichhartlt) : I suppose that there will be no immediate reFul~ from the passing of thie motion. As far as the policy of constructing rail w._~ys is concerned, I aru entirely in accord with t lH resolutions. About four years ago, at Long-reach, I gave expression to my opinion on the platform that we should con­nect our variou.s trnnk lineR, and also connect with the New Sonth \ValEs trunk line. I sa,­that if that was done it would put "'n end t•) · fear of lo es of E<tock in Queensland in future. Droug-ht~ are, likt.:ly to occur again the history of }\_UHt~'a.lia~ but in son1e place.::; there ai·'' alwavs sur.J to be ra,in8 and gr,~qs tu keep stock aliYe. \Vith re ,sarcl to tl1e ex­tension of the trunk line out \Ve,t, it has been tb;, policy in the post t•l picture.' que1y aclvocate the policy of raihv"'v towards ''the -etting ~un. J' l 1:Tr. The trunk lines are the only on<' that have paid.] Yes; but althong-h tlie rlrsc portions vf these lines have paid, the latterly-built section" have not p~id. [.:\Ir. ,J. I,EAHY: They have not had a f jl~ show._] ls not tha.t an argutnPnt that, owing- to the climatic conclitions of the \Vestern part of the country especially, they h tve < a lo3s of money to the department; and if occurs now a.nd again, I say to that extent it is an argnrnent why we f->hould not build lines in that direction any more. It is not a good poliLy to extend the lines to the far \Vest, where there is a very light rainfall-a rainfall insufficient for pastoml settlement. Take the Bn!loo district, is there any likelihood of there being- any sub­stantial c,ettlement in thr<t district, even if they had a railway there? '!.'he rainfall there is only on an average 3 inches or f5 inches in the year. [Mr. P. ,J. LEAIE: Over 1-1 inches they bad one year.] They had an average of ii inches O\'eT ten years. I would prefer to build lines to inhabited country where there iR a g-oocl rainfall, so as to try and save the enormous lossc~ that have occurred in stock. vVhat is the pulicy of a marching army? Is it not to entrench before it takes furthe1· steps? I say that we have gone sufficiently L.­now to make us halt before "e proceed further in this direc~ion. The wisest policy is to extend lines in the direction I have indic:.ted. With regard to the method of raising revenue for this purpose, I do not think we could sell lands in some \Vestern districts at ~s. od. an acre, takin;; all the kinds of country there. I think the estimate of £~;000 per mil" for construction is an underestimate. [Mr. P. ;r. L~;;.uu: I think it is an overestnnate.] This would mean that we would have to sell Hi,OOO,OOO acres of land alon;; the line for every mile of rail way constructed. [Mr .. J. LEAHY: The gridiron comts in handv now.] Ye· •. Then there is this factor: \Ye hav J

lanch locked up under leasehold in some cases for thirty or forty years, and I think that there would be a very 'mall lJ"rtion of land in man · districts that the Government could sell. proposition looked all very well on paper "ncl the abstract, but the ~ehen1e it~ impracticable. I an1 opposed to the selling of our lands in this way for this purpose, a' think it is ab •d policy for the country. I'ers"n~lly, I am glad that these resolutions have been !>laced before the Home, for the discussion which has taken place will S".rve a good pnrpoBe.

At 7 o'c/ocl.- the Scss,ional Onlcr, 3usiness.

PAPER.

in ur:corda/tWC 1 ~ : th ?.rith Government

The following pap•cr wa;; laid on the table:­Return to "'n Order, rehtive to pnblir servant-< who left the st>rvice between 17th May a;,d 11th October, 1\JO..t, made by the House, n1 motion of 1Ir. Petrie, on the 13th instant.

SPECIAL RETRENCH1IENT BILL.

R;~TUR);lll) l•'ROllf COUNCIL.

The SPE_\KER announced the receipt of a u1.essag·e from the Council returning this Bill "vithout a1nendn11::nt.

r:'\CO:!YIE TAX ACT AiHE::-:TDME::\'T BILL.

1LESP:\1l'Tro:s OF Co3DHTTEE.

On clause D, as fo1low.3 :--lu the Er~~ h of sceti~Y1 twent,'-two of tlle

prine~pal :\et word '·agent" the following y;ord::; are in~erted Hnd snell agc:1t hefore remitting

to "ueh ahsent''B tm_v- shall pa:.- to the ,tOll Cl' income ta)~ therenn, shall be eutitlert

to deduct from U1c income ,1blc to :-;nch person the amonnt of the tax pa1d

In the first. of ~etion twenty-two of the pl'ilL:ipal Act, eaeh ca.so ·where the word "r:tb~( ate.-~" of ur.;; in <ction twenty-two, after the worfl '' -\bs<~nL c" lmvrt the 1vords "or person ab::::cnt. fl'Om Qneenshwd."

:Nir. JI,L~CART;\TEY asked whether t.he claus® would apply in the cac~ ~' of a merchant in Bris­bane who emploc·ed an agent m London to pur­cha.se goodo for him, ::md that agent charged con1mi~sion for the work perfor1ned by hiln in London, \Voulcl the werchant be called upon to deduct income tax from the remnneration demanded by bis ag-ent, ::md only pay over the balance?

The TREASuRER: :No. Income tax was only collectable upon incnmes earned in (..lueens­land. He should l' rhaps have explained that the amendment was consequent upon the altera­tion in the definition of " • bsentee." Seeing a pBrson living in ·,ome other portion of Australia \Vas not now an absentee, It was necessary, for the purposes of section 22 of the principal Act, to insert t.he \'\.'ord·) '·or person absent frorn Queensland .. ,

A~mendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and lL~, ·,sed.

On clan " 10, as follows :--The followmg words arc ad dell to snbsertion one of

section thirty-one of the 'Principal Act:-·' not includ­ing liahilitLs to capital or reserves.''

The following \YOrjJ~ :n·c added to subst~ction:;; two ancl three of the ~aid H~rti(m :--"in addition to ::ill rents received on propert~.- in Q.necm~land. and all interest t•eccived t'rom lo~tns on property in Queensland, or from Jthcr invet-trnents in t.,[ueensland."

In subs:> tions fmn· and 1ln~ ot' 1hc saiil section tlle words ·' :-;neh rrotits uu,~,· be a ,se~:-.ed by tlw Oommis-~ifll181' at a snu to three younclf.. per ce11tumn are rcpc)detl, and 'vords "iho taxnble alllonnt of the

of t.hc :,n_v may be :v~-,e~.-:cd h.\' the Com-io Hvc ponnd~ per cenLum,

in lien tlwreof.

Thd TREASl7HJ~R n1oved thP insertion of the following to follow _be first para-;;r .. l ph of the

In .:mbsec'::ion i1Yo of sentlon thirty-one of the prin-! lpal _·\.d the "twPnty-tive" are mpoaled, aud the word " tT ls i1lSCTted in liC'n. thereof.

That wns for th:1 of giving s01ne measure uf r:lif-'~ to fire, tlllelity. ::;narantee, or rnanne lll~~urallce bnsinesF, the incon1es of which \vere dAclared to he as::z,,..sable at 25 per cent. of the preminn1s reeeivf'd dnrin?; the year on account of Queensland bus in<>·'· It wa' shown to hhn yetiterda.y by n. deputation of t,entlemen connected with thut cJa~,s of bnsines~ that 25 per c:ent. of their pren1ium~3 waR too high. They

Hon. W. Kidston.]

568 Inrome Ta:r Ar" [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bi11.

claimed that it would be a fa;r thing- if they were as'-essed at a little under 15 per cent. In case they had slightly nndere.;timated the matter, he was now propoHing to divide the difference with then1 by charging thern incnme tax upon 20 per cent. of their premiums. It was not fair th.·t one class uf persons Rhould be chnrged at a higher average than other c1ati~Us of individunls, and the amendment just proposed was an attempt t·1 ani re ::tt an equitable basis of aRsess­ment. If hon. members who were "cquaint"r! 'vith that class of business cou1d per;---uade the Committee that 15 per cent.. would be a fair percentage to takfl, he had no objt'ctiun to making it 1~ per ceut. ( He"r, hear!) He did not want to overchar;5e, but he w<1nted st1ll lesB to undercharge.

2:v1r~ ~b"'ORSYTH : ThE• TreaRnrer had toid them that the information that Le had deriYed from the cornp:wir, W<1S that the average wonld be under 1!) per cent., and he did not want to charge u~em rnl1re than tha.t. rrrw average was a littl. over 14 per cent. fo.· the last -five or ten yean:. ~Frmn the ir..forr.:lttion derived from the insurance companies yesterday~ he knew thn.t the arnonnt of businesR dune in --:\u&tralia last year was under 1:> per ccnL If tbat ts the case, and it had been the avprq:(e for HO 1nany

would he not be justified in acce>pting proposal to 1nake it 1G per cent. ? He

thought the argmnents raised by the Treasurer vvere absolutely sound. He knew that insuranc<_. corflpanie.'-> all round conside1·ed that:..') per cent. was far too lorge. They har! stood that for all

yc1ars ; hut he thought, as the avem'(e had under lf) per cent .• it 1/,Tonld be a fair con~

cession for the Treasurer to uw .. ke. and have it 15 per cent. ~nBtPad of 20 per cent. ,

Ilfr. P. ,J. LEAHY: There wns '' ,-ery large ;.mount of insuranr . done out:,ide Queensland. and if they chargPd a higlwr r;' te on those c~m~ panies here th..,~,n in Er'!.gla,nd and <tther co•-:tntnes, the insurance C0!1lpanit-:) would not bP in as goud ,-,_ position as the companip,s _in o~her places 'vhere ·the charg8 was les,. [Hon. K Purr.p: And they are not n0w.J For that reason he thought it v;ould be desirable to reduce the amount to lo> per cent.

Mr. MACARTJ'<EY: hear the staternent fron1 the discu"ed the mutter with a number of repre­sent:ttives of insurance eompanie~. and he had no beHitation in saying lG per cent. 'vas nearer the mark than 2C> per cent. as the hon. gentleman bad gone into matter, and was f,;irly well ·'' ttisfied, he did not think it necessary to go into details notv.

HoN. :tt. PHILI' : He would like to pnint out to the 'freasurer that a !otJ of li:n::Jlish con1panies accepttd ln\1.:er tern1s than the corn panics hP re, and be got nothing out of that at all. \Ye ought to put our emnpu,nle~ in as good a position as po,;;sible-r.ertainly not charg-e therr1 morethr~n the otherd. If thu Treasurer thoug·ht the profit was under 13 p :r cent., why eho;,ld we charge them more than lG per cent.': If they were going to charge them more than their profits redly were, it would tend to drive bn~inl'~.., away, but jf a concession \V;lS rnude equal to \Yhat they could get in other places the bu~inEs~ would cmne here instead of going to Engb.nd.

:Mr. FORSYTH: \Vitb regard to the question raised by the leader of the Opp'» 'tion, he knew of one particuh.r ca:~e in which a company in (lueen,land did enormous bnsine·s with the old country, but a large company in Lnndon sent ont a cable to their agents herr_, tu g-o and see thi" company with regard to the business being

CII en. W. J{ idston.

done between Queensland and London, and the c msequence was that they actually quoted a rate which no insurance company in Qneenoland could look at, and bnsines~ was lost arnounting to hundreds and thousands of pounds. He thought the loc·tl companies should be protected as far as pos~i ble.

The TREASUR1~R: With the consent of the Committee, he would m>1ke it lG cent. [Honourable members : Hear, 'rear They vvould be overchargin::5 the comt-Janies if they made it 20 or 23 per cent. In regard to the matter of insurances effected her" from J~ngbnd, it was rather a difficult matt· r to g·et hold of, D.nd certainly .it was unfair to insurance conl­pcj,nies doing· businc'-1s here. The insuntnce effected with the Englioh companies should be :::ubject to the tax whieh our own citizens had to

on the business whiCh they did, hut he w::ts that ~"'he n1atter nuu:::t stR.nd over in the

1neantirne. [Hon. R. PHILP: I\ lake it 1:> per c1~nt .. ; thnt is all you can do. -j

""~m'mdmC'nt amendL d accordin~;ly.

the words proposed to be lns;erted so inserterl (ti'c T'l'Utsln'tr'::; aJnend-JI<C.?t)-pnt and p::c8sed.

IVIr. JL\.\VTHOR:::\ asked the Treasun,r if he cou1d see his w:ty to pnt proprietary corupanies on the R3Ine footing n-;; rnntual com1mnieR under this Bill. In the Victnrir,n Act there was no di!terentiation mnde. Thr'e proprietary com­panies represented by their· income just as much the savings of the people a,; the mutual com-1>anies did: in the industrial branch of it they inor,• particularly represente:1 the ~avinp; of the poorest class of the commumty. _The mdustnal pnlicie"· were of very great a-;:-nstance . to t~e \Vorl.::ing rnan; they were s1nall an~ su1ted h1~ purpose enti~ely. ThA only tax~ hie 1tem of the

rncmne of n, 1-Jroprletary con1pany [1.30 p.m.] was the diYidend payable to the

shareholders in Queenslanrl, so it see~ed to be a fRir thing to allow the differentia­tion between the proprietary and mutual cam- / panieB to be done away with.

The TREASURER: If the hon. member for Enoggera would put it the other way about, and allow them to put the mutual compam~s on the f.ian1e f'\oting as the vroprietary con11Jan1es~ would that satisfy him? [Mr. HAwTnr;r:s: Hardly !] The c_xem],tion of mutual compames was largely a matter of cheap Bentiment, and he wC?uld .be delighted if the hon. member would a'srst ht_Hl in putting then1 on the san1e f110t1ng as propr1e~ tary co1npanies.

l\Ir. HA IVTHOl\N said hh desire was to see the proprietary com_panies, :,vhi~h were paying ~ higher r:~,te, put on the san1e rooting :-ts the rnutual c0inpanies.

::\Ir. MACARTNEY thought the suggestion of the bon. member fo:· Enoggera u reasormble one. He failed to see any great difference be­tween the tiHl clasqes of companies. The higher charge was l11fl.de up~m. cmnpa:niP~ who were particularly interested m mdustnal msur­ancP. If the hon. 1netnber n1oved an a1nend1nent he wonld sn}Jport hin1.

Mr. HA \VTHORI'\: It was eas~· enough to frQme an a1nendnwnt, bnt it was u~ele':'''· propos~ ing it unless the Tr·easurer would accept it.

The TREASURJ~R: Proprietary companies were very much in the san1e 12osition as. con1~

carrying on any other kmd of busrness. 8'{Bmption \Vas granted 111 the catle of rnutual

companies, and they did not charge up~n .the whole of their profits. Under tbt· prmmpal

Income l'a.r Act [27 OcTOBER.] Amenrlmr d Bill. 569

Act they were not assessed on any of their profitc. Now they proposed to do with them as they did with friendly societies, and charge them on the income they receivect from invested capital. \Vhile it was true that mutual com­panies had an adYantage over proprietary com­panies, yet tbe proprietary CJmpanies were at no disadv-antage as compared with other com­panies who had to pay on the whole of their ~;rofi ts.

}lr. HA \YI'HORl\ : There were two classPs of ~ompanie-3 carrying on life a,ssurance busines~) ::md for the purposes of the Act ono ''as called "mutual" and the other "proprietary," though they did exactly the s:une busine,s, and should be taxed on the same lines. The beneH.ts "ere the ··ame to the :;enerDl public. Ji[oreover, the pro­prietary cornpanies got at the poorer clttsse..; of ~he conllnunity by rr1cans of their industrial branchc~. 'rhere \V...ts, thetefure, no rea~on why they sbould be pt nalbed by having their incw11e a~SE.'·;sed at a higher rate than i11utual cmnpanie::;.

Ho:s-. R. PHILP "'ked the Treasurer how he proposed to deol with the request thctt had been rnade to him by the in-,nrance cm11panies' repre~ ~entath es ·:

The TRJ~ASl'IU~R: The ~mutual corrJIJanir~ tepresented to hin1 that sorue of them had ~ Yf'l'Y

large anwunt of nv1ney inve.sted tn Qw~ensland, and that under the Bill they would pay a tax upon tht>r investments which they were not called upon to J'<'Y under the old Act. [Hon. E. B. FOB HEST: I\ot in the same form.] Xot at all. They were not required to pay at all. The B~ll d~d not prop;se to tax: tb~rrl on their pre­n1IUill Incmne, but 1t seen1ed not Improper that if they had mcmey out at interest they should pav a tax on the n1oney derived frorn invet.t111ent the :; ame as anyo11e el•,e. r.rhe whole of the arg _l­ments used to him by the represen7 1tiv-es of mutual imnrance companies was that this Bill was going to make them pay more than the p~esent Act. They did not attempt to show h;rn that it was an unfllh: thing. They also mnted that the effect nnght be to induce n1utual in .. :;ur<-tnee con1panies to make their in vestments somewhere else than in Queens­land. If that WB'·' the effect, there would probably be another after-effect, which would be to rcmo>e the e-,:cmption which they enjoyed now, and place the tax on their ordinary income. T.hey were very well treated, because they hitherto had been wholly exempt, and it was now proposed tu continue the exemption on their ordinary incorne, and only ehar[.{e income tax on that part of their income which came from rents or money out at interest. He did not think that even under that Bill the mutual insuranc'' companies bad any right to complain. Indeed, he thought far more of the objection of the hon. n1ember for Enogger:~. \Vonld the hem. 1nmnber assist him to remo>"e the exemption from mutual companies·:

Mr. HA IYTHOR:J'< pointed out that he wr,nted the prop,·ietary companieo relieved of their disability ccnd put on the same footing as mutual companies--that wa , that they would only h:we to pay income tax on their rents and inten·st receiYed.

:\lr. S071LERS1{T : The ~~nstralian Mutual Provident Society did not. do business outside of Australia, while proprietary companies did, and were not on the same footing at all. He there­fore hopt'd the hon. member for :Enogl'era would not a~:,sist the Treasurer to put n1ntual companies on the same footing as proprietary companies. He did not wish to see the mutual companies penalised nny farther.

HoN. E. B. FORREST did not see any r;oint in the reference made by the hem. member for Stanley to the fact that certain companies did busineH outside of Australia and others did not. 'l'bev were nnt dealing with what was done in England. They dealing- purely with Australian business. understood the Treasurer to say th,rt life o±!ices paid nothing under the principal Act. As a matter of fact, they were assessed at 1 per cent. of their premium revenue, and now it was propos'~~d to ask thern for iJ per cent. on their rent' and on int2rest. U nd8r the principrtl Act the Arbtmlian 1\futual Pruddent :Society p:ticl £1,700 or .£J,BOO; under the proposed levy they would pay nertrly £4,000. That was the working of it, according to the figures he had :;ot from the o!Rce himself. There should be ><>me notice taken of the fact that the Australian l\lutual I>wvident Society was a mutual officP, and the profitE< were not for the benefit of the proprietors, hut for the benefit of the policy-holders, and were di,.tributed in the shape nf bonuses. [The I'IlEMllm : The policy­holders are the shareholders.] The principle bad been to ben en t people ,vho insured their lives, and yet here they were saddling mutmtl offices with m<.Jre than double the tax they I•aid previondy ; and that was not a fnir thing. He understood that the Treasurer, accordingo to the newspaper report of an interview he had with the repre~entu,tives of ther.;e cornpanies, promii:ied to give the rnatter smne consideration, nnd he (Mr. }-.orrest} now asked him if he had given the rnrttter considera­tion, and vvhat was his ultin1atum?

The TREASURER: Ik had giren the matter a good deal of consideration, and the result was that he would like to tax pren1iutn ine01ne as well ao income on inv-utmcnts. [Hon. R. PHrr,p: You are doing that now.] Income on premiums was exempt under the old Act, and the exemp­tion still remained under this Bill. These com­panies \Vonld only be asse-ssed on their invest­ments. They were better off now than the pro­prietary companies t.o that e,,tent, and he would rather remove the exemption than extend it.

1\Ir. HA\YI'HOR:'\: He did nfJt want to exempt Hlutnal companies. but, as the Treasurer had made a considerable conces.,ion to fire and other insurance cmnpanies. who, on their own showing, nmde 14 per cent. last he thought proprietary companies ,,!Jould be on the same footing.

'fhe TREAS"C"REE explained that the con­cession to fire insursJnce cmnpanies wa .. ··; Inore than likely to be compeneated for by the fact that they were bringing in their incomes from rent and investments, and the reduction from :l~ per cent. to l:'i per cent. wrs only made be­cause it w;,·< quite evident that that would he much nearer their true income. I Mr. HAWTHORN : You can't see your way to accer)t the suggestion?] 1\o.

HoN. R. YHILP c<>ntended that the Trea­surer was pE nali;.:;ing the l'Jcal cmnpanies in f<t vCJur of foreign eo m panit-·s. which got a lot of premiurm here. Out of tbe 1!2,250,000 lent in the State by the"~ office,, the American com­pz.nies only invested £11.000. No one objected to the 1 per cent. tax : but it was not fair that the local companies should be so taxed while the foreign companies we1·e let off. [The TREA­~URER: No; they will pay 5 per cent. on the profits they earn in t,lueensland.] But they made no. profits at all. \Vith mutual companies there were only policy-holrlers, but with proprie­tary companies there were policy-holders and also a number of shareholders who get divi­dends, and the balance was handed back as a

Hon. R. Philp.]

570 ~ASSEMBLY.] .Amendi!l<'ilt Bi71.

bonus. In Australia, all the big offices were mutual oftices, and the profits were divided among the policY-holders. lThe PREliiiER: They get preferentml treatment under this Bill.] To what extent~ Here was the list of com­panies in C/t!eensland and the amount of loans they h;d advanced :-Equitable L1fe Assurance Society of United State<, £8,108; National Mutual Life Association of Austrdasia, £215,148; City Mutual Life Assnrance Society, Limited, £9,GG8; Jlo1utual Life Insurance C'ompany of New York, £1,31\J; :Mutual Life Association of Australasia, £H0,07:i ; Citizens' Life .-\ssur­ance 0\1n1pany-ordinary, £1:?}132 ~ industrial, £22,G2G; Au-tralasian Temperance and General ,\lutual Life Aseurance Societv, Limited, £DO;); ;\le\'? York Liie Insurance Company, £2,201; Colonial ~Tutnal Life A_f",.·mrance Society, £128,034; AustraliAn C\Ietropolitan Life Assur­ance Company, ~:?t1,.}2l ~ ), nstralian ~Iutnal Provioent Society. ,t:1,/.3S,Nl4; total loans, c£2,27G,54!J. It wonld be bett,er to ha ye the old tax of 1 per cent.

HoN. E. B. FOllREST : He was sorry that the Treasurer dLl not t,ake a more favourable view of the matter. \"~:ere they to understand that foreign of:Hcps coming here were to be exempt from this taxation, ancl that the Australian office; were to be 'addled with the entire burden? It really had that appearance. \V as it to be

understood that that was the idea "? [8 p.m.] He would read the figures again, in

case lhe Treasurer did not under­stand them. l'I'he TREc\SCRER : There is one thing the Treasurer understands.l \Vhat was that? [The TREASCRER : That the exemption should be removed altogether.J If they were all taxed on their premium income,, they were all put on the s>tmH footing, but the hon. gentleman was not doing that. The Equitable Insurance Society-one of the largest American companies -which was doing an immense business in Queensland, had only the sum of £8,000 invested in the State. It did not invest its premiums in mortgages in Queensland, and it would not pay anything like 1d. per cent. on it' Queensland business. The )[ational Mutual Life Association of Austrttlasia had £215, HS invested in Queensland. \Vas the Treasurer offering any inducement to Australian offices to invest money here'? They would take their money away, although probably they could not r~~lise on their mortgages just now. At all events, they would be very chary about investing any more herP, especially if foreign offices were to pay nothing. The City :\Iutual Life Assur­ance Office had £fl,ljGS invested here. Then came the :\Iutual Life Insumnce Compeny of New York-anothAr immense American institu­tion-which had the enonnous sum of £1,31!! invested in Queensland, although it was doing a large business }n elnnpetition with 1\nstralian offices. It would pay no taxation ; a,nd was that a fair thing': ender tlH_ Dividend Duty Act all the offices were 1 ,]aced on an equal footing, being charged 1 per cent. on their premiums. The TrLasurer·s proposal was most absurd and momtrous. There was no State in Australia, and no conntry in the world, where a sin1ilar state of thinus prevailed and it only showed the pettih~gging mean~ that were being adopted towal'ds people who were disposed to do business with them. He did not know who were directors of those oltices. 'I' he whol0 Ministry mig-ht be directors for all he knew. He was a director of one com­pany--the c0mpany which did the larg-est busine,ss in Queensland. That company had invested nearly £2,000,1100 in queensland, and it was now to be taxed in this way. Every shilling made bv that company went into ihe pockets of th"e

[Hon. R. Philp.

policy-holders. p'lr. HA ~VTHORX: It is thL money of the general pubhc.] It was not the money of the general public. They came next to the Australian Temperance and Mutual Life Association, Limited, which had £\Jo;, invested here. \Vhat amount wonld thosH people pay~ Was it worth talking about"[ The Colonial :Mutual Office--tb;ct was another .\ustralian oftice--had invested £12H,OOO in Queensland, and would contribute somewhat largely. They probably wanted to inYe~t _ prerniu1ns re­ceived in Queensland in the State ; bnt were they going to dn it when the GO\'ernrrwnt proposed a thing of that sort'? The State wanted to induce money to cmne here fr~nn all sources. This was private enterpriee, but 1t was enter­prise that the ~rreasurer wL111ted tn stamp out. Every effort was being nla(1e to set down the capitalist this yem'. The other side did not want him to build railways; they did not want him to come here for any purpoc•e, and the sooner somebody . said so ~he better. [Jioir. llAl\XES : That is the policy of the Govern­ment.] [The PRE}!IER: According to the hon. member for Bulimbc.] [~ir. B.\HXE'l: It is trne.J The Premier could not deny it. The figures showed that ,,,me of those mushroom concerns, so far as lending 1non•_ y in the Stnt0 was concerned, \Vere to be allov;red to go free, while those \vhich invt.sted a ~Teat dca,l nwre than the premiums they received here were to be saddled with taxation. \Vn' it a fair thing- for one office to be selected-for that was wh>tt it amounted to-and be loaded with a tax of £4,000? [The PHElllllR: That is not a correct statement. J It was a correct stat"ment, and he challenged the hon. gentleman to contradict him. [The PHE:UIER: You are C[uite wrong.] It was no use the hon. gentleman saying- be was quite wrong. He had been told he was wrong when he said insurance companies were taxed. They were taxed before to the exl;ent of 1 per cent. on their premium rev en ne. [The PmmiER: You said they paid income tax, and they did not.l That was one of those quibbles that the bon. gentleman should be ashamed of. Those companies formerly paid dividend duty, and it was now to be merged in the income tax. It was a tax on income, even if it was not an income tax, and the old system had at least the merit of charging every company upon its income. To select any particular feature of their businec-; and tax that, letting the other portion off, was a n1nnstrouo;; farce.

The TREASURER: There were two aspects of this matter-the incornP frum pmmiurns, and the income from inv·estment,. It had been clearly shown by the leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for North Brisbane that in exempting the premium income of so-called 1nutual insurancA societies they were doing a very great wrong, and that the remedy for the whole business was to put,,]] such societies doing the same class of business on the .;ame footing and make them all pay alike. I Hon. E. B. :FoRREST: \Vhich ,·ou do not dn.J Jlut he would be delighted to do it, [Mr. FoRSYTH: Go back to the old policy?] No. But if the hon. _mem­ber for 1\orth Brisbane would support hnn he would be delighted to move that premium incomes should be charg·ed eqllally. \Vith regard to the income from im·estmenL', did the hon. member for ~ orth Brisbane meim to tell the Committee that it was equitable to charg-e a bank on the income it had from its in,·cstments, and not charge an insuranre corr1l any on the interest it had from investments·: [Hon. E. B. FoRREST; I do. You don"t understand it.] The hon. member said that some of these incomes from investn1ents were from loans on policies. \Vhat had that got to do with it? I Hon. E. R.

Income Tax Act [27 OCTOBER.] Amendment Bill. 571

FORREST : Everything.] The nature of the -;ecurity had absolutely nothing to do with it­wh;tt they were concerned with was the fact that it was an earning on ce.pital. \Vhy should they tonch the interest on investn1ents in the case of the Royal B>tnk? [Hon. E. B. YoRRE~T: A different thing altogether. There is a very good c·eason for that, and you know it very well.] The proprietors of any of the banks· put certain money out at interest, and so fu as the busine ·" :·so~ct of the matter was concerned it did not matter two straw.s what secnrity they held for th;s capital. \Vhat the Cmumi,;sioner lonked at was that they received certain interest on the .:apital which they had lent ont, and the old Bill and the present Bill recognised that interest as income from capital invested on which income tax should he paid. ·whether it w.·.s a life "ssurance society, or a friendly :::;ociety, or a trade~ nnion, or any other kind of society, it did not matter-the name of tbe society had notbins ·1t all to do with the fad that the income was in· ' nne deriyed from property, and that it should b'' assessed. Did mutual assurance societies lend out money c,t a less rate of interest than other societies? [Hon. E. B. PommsT : Yes ; th<tt i.> another thing you don't know.] It was. [~Ir. JENKIXSON: To its own policy.holders.l The remedy was to put everyone on the same footing, and they would put them back again, and strike out the exemption of mutual insurance societiei', , nd put all on the same footing.

Hox. R PHILP : The hon. gentleman had not replied to his argument that only mutual insurance companies which had money invested in Queensland would pay this tax, as the pro· prietary companies had no money worth ~peaking of invested here. They taxed their own people, but did not tax the American corn· panies which did a large amount of business in the State. If the hon. gentleman would go back to the ol~ provifiion and charge 1 per cent. on the premmms he would be satisfied, but would not be satisfied if he persisted in taxing the interest earned by the investment of those premiums in Queensland.

::Yir. HA WTHORX thought there must be some misapprehension with regard to pro· prietary companier;. The :Mutual Life Assur. ance Company of New York and the J<~quitable Insurance Company might not have a large amount of money invested on mortgage . in <Queensland, hnt still as proprietary companies they would, if the law was carried out, have to pay on their premium income.

::VIr . . T, L}~AHY said he did not happen to be ;n the position of a director of any insurance c:Jmpany .. The T~easurer was now reversing tl1e prmC!ple wbch he had previously laid dow_n-namely, that every person who w 1s \(ettmg a ,;even ne from Queenslmtd should pay mto the .treasury an amount proportionate to the amount they were getting out of the State. That v.as a very sound princinle to go upon. Per--ons residing in ~.\ueenslanct' would pay 6d.

the £, and persons living out of Australia £,,r more than six months would uav ls. in the £. Thnt showed that the policy of the Govern· ment and of the House v as that if there was to be any leniency at all in regard to tal>.ation it was to be shown to those who re,ided in the State and carried on their business here. That .. as encouraging the local man. In the pre>ent

r>ase the Treasurer was reversing that policy. There were two Australis"n societies with large iiurns in vested in Queensland, and there were other con1panies her(' deriving, if not the ::;atne profit, a ver:;: large amount of profit from the business they o.rrred on m Queensland. Yet the companie·, that

invested rnoney here p::tid a far larger proportion to the income th~· derived from the t>tate than the other companies which did not happen to have mucb of their money in·. ested here. Having laid down the principle that people who derived inconte frmn (~neensla,ncl should contribute sorne portion of that income towards the government of the State, the next thing was: '\Vhat was the best way tu r.trry out that principle' If a man did not in veBt his money here, the Treasurer could not get at him. lf there was any system by which he could be got at, that system should be to. if t.here were nwtws ontside the f,)n_,~ n giving n1orc equita.hle result.s, that was the eour.-..H that should bJ adoiJtC(1. It \vas quite clear to hin1 that cornpanie.:~ like thoti:j ~:\_meriC')n con1panies, whi~h had only a few thousrlnd ponrvl~ in \-ested here, 'vere getting c1ecidedb,7 the better of .£\nstraJian conlpauies, that had their n1oney lnve·ited in Queensland. That wa.-; iL de1nJ.rtme from the general principle la:d down bv the Treasurer and artirmerl by Parlian1ent-· £hat if an ad v::tntage 8hou1d be gi,~en at all it oJhoul.-1. be giw'l to the person who had his home and his interests in the State; and 1t wo-nld be interesting to know how the hon~ gentlen1an, \vho could be r··asonable sometin1es, justified his rm ereal of it in the case of those insurance societies.

The TREASl!RER: He could not help feel· ing pleased to hear the hon. member say the Trea:surer cn'.lld be reasonable somE. times. One

• nf those •; sometin1es" was now. The cOin plaint was that of two mutual insurance societies doing business here, one of which was an Aus· tralian and the other an absentee society, they gave the absentee "ociety preferential treatment, and that the evidence of such preferential treat· ment was that they did not charge the absentee society on its investments because it had no in­vestments in the State. Surely that was ridicu· lous ! [Mr. J. LEAHY : You ought to make them pay in proportion to what they get from the ,-;tate.] He had pointed out over and over again that the simplest way was to put them all on the same level and do away with the exemption. l Hon. }~. B. FOIWEST : 'l'ell us e'Xactly what you will do. \Ve want no favours from you, because we know we shall ll'>t get them.] He wished the hon. member for Brisbane North would "keep his hair on." They had been told repeatedly that there was something ineq uitttble in charging everyone alike who got an income from capital invested. There was absolutely no inkjuityin that. Itwns•fair to all concerned. That some societies derived interest from money in­vested in (,lneensland while others, not having money inve~ted in (.\ueensland, did not derive much intere',,t, was not an argun1ent. The argu­ment of the hon. member for Bulioo was that a local societv had £1,000,000 inYested; nd it had to pa'y income tax on the income it

received from that £1,000,000, and a foreign society with £1,000 invested only paid income tax on the interest rAceived. He claimed that the unfairness which was said to exist had

nothing· <.t all to do with the fact [8.:30 p.m.] that they both had to pay income

t '~" on the amount of interest which they received. If one had a large amount out at lnter,cst and another had a sn1alJ amount m1t at 1nten:st, they pald incon1e tax in propor­tion, large or small. \Vhere the inequity came in was here : It happened that the c·ociety which had the largpct amount invested, and had received a large amount of inconte on it on which they had t<' pay income tax, was a local society, and it did not ha\e so large a revenue from premiums as a foreign society which had no money invE ~ted here. The way to e<tnaliPe the whole thing was to charge nlso on the premium income and do

Hon. W. Kidston.J

572 Jncome Tax Act [ASSEMBLY.j Amendment Bill.

away with the exemption, and then the society which did the large premium busine"" would pay correspondingly.

Ho:l'. E. B. I<'ORREST mo1•ed the omiosion of the following paragraph in clause 10 :-

The followiug word;"; ar.:: addrd to ~nbsedionc-; two and three or the ::-aid _.,ection :-'·In a,~ iitwn to all Tent:-:; rccciYed on property in Queensland. and all intere:'.t rec~ived from loans on pro pert.) in Queensland, or from other investments in Q,neensland."

He woultllike to refer to loans on policies, <tnd he knew of nothing which was nwre largely availed of, and was such a ~irnple 1node of borrowing tnoney. To get a un property they had to get all sorts report< ,~alua~ tions, and no end of information; but t.o get a loan on a policy all they had to do was to go to the office and state the amount they 'Yanted ~nd they got a cheque fnr the arnount, and they could repay it the next clay if they liked. There \V:.h.: an ilnmense adYantagc in this; it was a great point to Le able to get the money free of ex;Jense and ncpeditiously. It was perfectly clr tr that the discussion had had the effect of 1naking the Treasurer try and get more than he thought he could before. lf he did , o, an extra rate of interest would have to be put on by people who he"d money to lem1.

Mr. J<'ORSYTH : He understood the Trea­surer's idea was to get back to tho uld po:-:ition nnder the Dividend Duty Act. The latter part of that .A.ct stated "a Rnn1 equal to tY;entv shil- • lings for every one hundred pounds or p~rt of one hundred ponndR of ~uch preminn!R: ., and he under>toocl thnt that clause was going to be brought into this BilL Then the life m mrance companies, instead of having to pa,- the tax as proposed under this scheme, would simply have tu I.:.:ty 1}1~1' cent. of their pre1nitun-, 2d they did before. He had under toocl from the Trer,surer that he was prepared to do that. Clause 12 of the old Income Tas Act statecl distinc·tly thHt rnutual assurance con1panies and friendly socie­ties were exempt. If the~~ wante'1 to treat everyone alike-, the only way to gt:t at companies \vas to ntake them pay on the pre1nhnn incorne. It would not matter then whether thev invested their money in Que<'nsland or not. u"the Trea­surer accepted that suggestion it would meet the case at once.

The TREASURER did not see the oli~htest reason for cutting out the proYi:sion relating to payment of the tax on monev recei,~ecl from investment, but he was quite willing· to inclncle a proviso that, in addition, the companies sh0•1ld pay 1 per cent. on their premium income. [Hon. E. B. 1<'0RREST : And take the other off ?l Oh, no ! He could not do that. He would ask if it would meGt the views of hon. members if he provided that only rnutual insurance com1Janic" that had their chief place of business here should he exempt'! He could not agree to the amendment.

Mr. 2\IACARTXEY: The Treasurer had been asked whether he wonlcl pnt proprietary con1panieR on the sa1ne foot-ing as 1nutual conl­panies, and his reply was that he would put mutual cornpanle'. on the sa1ue footi11g ns pro­prietary companies. If he admitted tbe principle of equality, then he should agree to tbe sugges­tion of the hon. member for Enoggera. The hon. gentleman in admitting· that the societies ~hould be put on an equal footing, referred to certain friendly societies. In that case the language u~ecl _;,as somewhat different. It was-60 Except in respect of a1nount!-:i received b\· them as rents, or as interest on lor~ns. ·· In th'c, case before them the words used were-" In

[Hon. TV. Kiclston.

addition to ·Jl rents received on property in Queensland, and all interest received from loans on property in Queensland, or frnm other invest­ment in Queensland." He did no~ know what the hon. gentleman intended to include under the word,,, "other investments." It was not the language of equality in both cases. If it was meant to get anything more from insurance companies, they should know it.

The Tl1EASURER: The lan:;uage in both cases came very much to the same thing. He did not know that there was very mucb differ­ence.

HoN. R. PHILP: One of the fir,t amend­ments they made in the Bill dealt ''ith persons not domiciled in Australia. All the mutual companies were domiciled in Australia, and he ehould he glad to know if the 'l'rea"lrer would b<" willing to apply the same principle in tlmt case, and exempt offices that were nut abc,entce:,,

The 'rREASLTRJ<;R had not the slightest obJection to that by am•·nrling subsection (3) of clause 12 of the principal Act so as to make it read : "The incmnes of n1utual insurance C'Jm­

p'tnies who~e principrJ place of bw .. int ...,~ ls out­:..;ide of Brisbane," an( I t~1ke a~vay the exen1ption from mutual offices whose chid place of business was outside of Australia. They could not by any provision of the Dill make a difierence between insurance con1panie.-.: in Queensland and those in X ew South vVales. He would lllOYe that later on.

HoN. R. l'HILP: Did he understand the Treasurer to say that he would exempt mutual officeR fron1 paving incmne tA:x on their rents and loan•? [The TrmASl'REI!: Oh, no!] Then what was to be the exemption?

The TREASURER: There was no question about rernodng thP tax on incornes fron1 in vest"­rnents in connection with the-e~~ companie.s. They would have to pay that. Hon. members oppo­site surely would not ha ,~e the hardihood to charge a little twopenny-halfpenny friendl~­societv with the income tax on its small pom· invrst~nents, and not have the courage to charge a society like the Australian Mutual Provident Society with the t<tx. [Hon. E. B. l<'OIWEcT: \Ye want to leave them out.] [Mr. JfoRSYTH: lVIake them exempt also.] He was prepared to give local mutual societies the adYantage of premium income; but he was not prepared to strike out the tax on income from inYf''tments. He was qnitc prepared to take away the exemp­tion from absentee societies.

Qnestion- That the words proposed to be omitted (Hon. E. 1!. ForrcBt's amuFlmcnt) stand part of the cbnse-put; and th£ Committee

. cliYided:-

::3Ir. Airey Bal'ber :Barton Bell Blnir 1~oucllard_

Bowman Brid£re'' Buri·Ow-.. Cooper Co\Yap Denh::tu: D11n~forcl Fndge {;rant Gravsm1 HarllHton Herbertf;on Hodge Jone:-

~· Kenua Kerr

AYt::-'. 1'3. ::\lr. Kidstou

Lanrl Le~ in& }fann 2\IH.rtin ::\Iaxwcll 1\leDonncl: l\ilir hell :;'~Ior:::;an

}Tulcl1h'· Murph: ~-oru1an

O'Kecfte RcinhoH

,. Ityland Dcott Smart Hpencer 'rolmie rrurner 11/oodt-.

'Pcl{e,·s: JLr. Spencer and :.Hr. Tolmie.

Income T:xx Act [27 OCTOBER.] .Amudment Bill.

Mr. Barnes Cameron

, l''orrcst , Yor~yth ., l~ox

I-lanran Jcnkinson

Mr. J. Lcahy P. J. LeRhy

,. ::Macartncy­" Paget

Petrie , Philp

Stodart

Tellers: :l!!r. Barncs and 1Ir. Stodart.

Reaolved in the affirmative.

Amendment agreed to; and clause, as amended, put and paosed.

On clause 11, as follows :-After section thirty-one the following section is in­

serted:-

[31A.] \.Vhen and so often as any dividend is declared payable to any Stlareholders in a company having its hf'''td office or chier place of busiues~ in Queensland, such comp:-~tJ.y shall within seven dnys from the 'Lime when sucu dividend has been declared forwa,rd ro the Com­miR"lioner a r-;turn in the prc~crib~d form and contair:­ing the pre"lcrihed varticnlars, and verified by statutory declaration under the Oaths Act uf 1867 nnder the hancl of and made by the public officer of such f'om­pany, stating the amonnt o£ such dividend and showing the date when the same was so declared.

'rhe company shall at the same time pfl.y to the Commissioner income tax at the rate of tive tJounds tJer centum of the amount of such dividend.

lt shall not be lawful for the person charged with the payment of any divirlcnd to distribute the same amon<4st the persons entitled thereto until the tax payable in respect thereof has been paid.

Mr. JENKINSON understood the Treasurer to promise that he would alter the clause so that the amount of income tax would only be paid

once a year, instead of cmnpanjes [9 p.m.] having to pay it everY month wit.hin

seven days after declaring a clivi· dend. It certainly would be very inconvenient if they had to pay income tax twelve times a year.

The TREASURER : That wa' not where the inconvenience would come in. lt would rather come in where a company had pRid dividends during the fir,t half of th<-> ye:tr, and during the last half·\ ear it made a loss. 'l'here should be some pro.vi>o that an allowance should be made in that case. It was really of no consequenPe whether the inc,.me tax was paid every month or every year. \Vhen a company was paying'" dividend was certainly the proper tirr;e to collect the amount of income tax. He would eee if he could get an amendment drafted.

Mr. DUNSFOllD: 'When they were rliscuss­ing cl•m~e '' he pointed out the anomaly that would exist in connection with 111ining cnrnpanier.;, During srm1t' months they might be payir'g calls and in other months declaring dividends, but, in the aggregwte, their lo~_;;es 1night far exceed their dividends. It would be very unfair, ,,,·hen they really had no income, to charge them income tctx. The Treasurer might amend the clause by referring to the section in the Dividend Duty Act. There was no mention in the clause of any refund on account of over-payments. If the clause were passed as it stood, some com­panies would be dealt with very unjustly. In mining el}mpanies dividends were Ut:iunlly paid every month, whereas in trading companies they were generally paid yearly or half-ye%rly. Calls were also made every month in the case of mining companies, and he was sorry to say that the calls were more numerous than the dividends.

Mr. MACARTNEY : The matter referred to by the hon. member for Charters Towers was

deserving of consideration, but any amendmBnt ou~ht not to be confined to 1nining companies; it ought to include all trading companies. Tradn1g and banking co1npanies might pay a dividend the fir;t half-year and have to pay the tax, while in the second half-yc'u they might make a loRs. He trusted the Treasurer would n1ake his atnendrnent v ... ·ide enough to cover all companies.

Mr. :'\luLOAHY: In the other States provi­,ion was made for making a refund in the case of companies which had paid income tax on divi­dends and which snl:.sequently had to mt1ke calls. He hoped the Treasurer would see his way clear to make a refund in similar case8 here.

The TREASURER: It aweared that, if they attempted anything like what he suggested, they ran the risk of losing the duty they received under the Dividend Duty Act. Under that Act duty was paid on all di videuds declared. 1 Messrs. :\ll·LcAHY and J K'iKINSON: Less the a:nountof capital called up to df'velop the mine.} If they made an allowance for los"es, it might wipe out all the duty. [:\Ir. ,)ENKINSON : That ha' been done in the past.j [::\fr. MACAR1'NEY: Yon ought to have thought of that before you wiped out the Dividend Duty Act.] If they were going to lose the duty, they would not wipe it out.

.Mr .. JE~KINSO:i'\: Under the Dividend Duty Act the amount cailed up in eonnection with the company was deducted before the dividend duty was pt1id, and that was all that was asked should be done under the clause befvre the Committee_

The TREASl~HER said he had a chuse drafted gi dng the ,;a me protection to mining companies as they had under the Dividend Duty Act, and be would submit it at the recom· mittal stage. They could then discuss the differenue between 1nining c01npanies and other compt1nies in this particular matter.

Mr .. JEC'IKINtJO.N ru;ked if the hon. gentle­man would also make provision in that clause with regard to the companies which had under­gone a process oE reconstruction'! [The TRK\­sliRER: That is provided for in the new clause.]

:\Ir. BAR~ES said he proposecl to move that on line 23'~ after the word "declared," there be inserted the word;.; "and the date upon which it is to be paid." If that am8nument were agreed to he wonld follow it up by moving the omis-ion on line 2t) of the words "at the "arne titne," with the view of inserting "not les; than seven day.,, before the payment of such duty." As the clauoe >'tood the inc~me tax had to he paid within seven clays after declaring a dividend. Many companies when they declared a dividend made it payable thirty days he,nce, and he thought it was unbir thao they should have to pay the income tax. '~ithin seven days of the declaration of the d1v1dend, and twenty-three days before that dividend was actually paid.

The TREASURER asked if the hon. member w•Juld be satisfied with the substitution of thirty days for eighteen days in line 18?

Mr. BARNES said that was not exactly what he wanted, but he would be agreeable to accept it, for the sake of getting on with the business. (Laughter.)

The TREASURER moved that on line 18 the word "aeven" be omitted with the view of inserting "thirty."

Hon. W. Kidston.]

574 Income lax Ar·t ~ASSE.YIBLY.]

Amendment agreed to ; and clause, as amended, put and passed.

Clauses 12 to ID, inclusi1·e, put and passed.

Mr. HA \VTHORN moved the insertion of the following new clause, to follow clause Hl :-

rl'his Act shall cease to have eifect on and afte.r the first dav of October, one thousand nine hundred and six. excftpt as to any right, elaim, privilege, o~ligatiou. penalty, or liability then acqnirfd, accrued, or mcnrred.

It was a good thing, he thought, that a limit should be made to the dnration of the Act. If they left it without any possibility of its coming up for .review withh~ two years,. or any ot_her term, It was practiCally here m perpetmty, and it was n0t likely it would ever be dealt with unless absolute necessity arose: where.as in two years the circumstancPs of the State might be so altered that it might be possible to take the tax off altogether or to reduce its incidence.

The TRl~ASUHER : He did not think it a wise thing to introduce such a prO\·iso into the Bill. There was no question of principle attached to it, and if the Committee thought it advisable to have that trouble every two years, well and good ; but that was not his opinion. Besides, if he saw any reasonable pl'Obability of doing away with the income tax altogether within any reasonable nnmher of years, nobody would be more pleased than himself. No Go­vernment would continue to impose such an unpopular tax as the income tax unless they wanted the revenGe. Any Government would be only too delighted if it could see its way to abolishing it altogether. l' nfortunately, he was afraid, no Queensland Government for a good many years to come would ha Ye that pleasurP. .i\.s a matter of practical business the amendment would make very little difference. Two years o.go the then Government, perhaps to make _it seem not so drastic or so hard to bear, weakly fixed the limit of the Act at two years. And now the present Governn1t'nt were re-enacting :it and making it worse. [An honourable membe, : \Vith the p<>ll tax out.l If in two years' time the Government of the day required the rBvenue they would have to reintrodnce the Bill and pass it again. If they did not, the Treaenrer, whoever he might happen to be. would be awfully pleased if he was 'lble to strike off ld. or 3d. in the .£.

Mr. ::\IACARTKEY ir1tended tJ support the an1enrlrnent on the gl'ound that the Act should be periodically reviewed and readjusted. If it were not c::trried he ~'hould 1nove the ::unend­ment of "hich he had gi 1·en notice. limiting the effect of clause 4, in order that the tax might be treated as an adjustable one from year tG year.

Iv1L TOLMIR hoped the Treasurer would see his wav to accept the amendment. \Vith regard to a certain section of the community, the Bill \Vas a nlllcb 1nore drastic 1neasure than that introduced by the late Government, and there was no re<>son why the ta" shnuld be imposed longer than was necessary. J).J:any hon. members did not really understand how heaviJ.y the tax was going to fall upon a lar~e section of the community, and it was not wise to tax an:v portion of the community beyond what they believed they were able to bear. If there was any necessity for taxation he believed the com­munity would bear it as cheerfully as in nny other StatE', although they might not like it; but

if the necessity was there the people [0.30 p.m.] would come to the assistance of the

Government. The Treasurer would be doing a graceful thing, and the Government

[Mr. Hawthorn.

would be well advised if they would put some limitation upon the duration of the BilL 'l.'he Government might say it was objectionable to introduce a Bill of this nature every two or three years, but he thought that any nm: taxa­tion Bill of this nature should be on the hnes of the English Act, so that they would be able every year to review the position.

Mr. :FORSYTH sfrid they shoul~ ta~e into consideration what happened in YICtona two years ago. They were in a parlous condition the same as Queensland in that particular year,. ~nd they simply doubled the income tax, raiSmg thereby £·100,000 instead of £200,000, and the consequence was that they had a large surplus at the end of the veo.r. The next year they took off ld. in the .£ from personal exertion an.d 2d. in the£ from property, and reduced those rtems by £100,000, and he understood that they were going to reduce it this year with the very large surplus they had. It might happ~n that our Treasurer at the end of next year might have a surplus of £100,000 or £150,000, and Imght be able to reduce the income tax by one-half. He thought it would be a good thing if the Act was reviewed at stated times-one year or two year<. He hoped the Treasurer would accept the amendment.

Mr. J. LEAHY: He should support the amendment, but did not propose to discuss it, a' it was getting late. He understood that thP; Treasurer had some amendments to move; ano. they did not want to be there all mght. 'I here was no chance of influencmg the Treasurer by argument.

Mr. BOUCHARD thought the proposal limit the duration of the Act was a good one, for the reasons already given. There was not tf1." slightest doubt that the income tax here wae: m excess of that existing in any of the Anstralmn :States and they all hoped that dnring the next two /ears the finances of t~e. State would s~ i1nprove as to enable smne rev1s1on to be Inade OL the rutes which had been imposed. It was u great temptation to any Treasurer) no doubt, t(~ get as much money as he could from an Act of this naturF, but he sincerely trusted that the Treasurer would see his w::ty to accept the a:r.aend1nent.

The TREA:SFRER: As far as les':ening the amount payable undt·r the Bill was concerned, uny primte member was at. hbert37 next sessiOn of Parliament to move any reductwn he chose: [-Mr. MACAHTN.Ii:Y: \Ve know what that means.j [Mr. J<'oRSYTH: \Ye should never get a show tu uet u Bill through.] Did not hon. g2ntlemen ~ee th:J.t unless the Government of the day could do without the Bill this amendment was rroinO' to make any difference" L' nless C+ov;rmnent were prepared to amend theta' .:1: tion, the fact that they bad to pass the B1ll would put them under a dif'1dvant&g-e.

1\Ir. P. J. I"EAHY: A_lthoug~1 this J?iH might be necessary now-:-and he c!Jd not. tbmk it was-the con:iitions might be differPnt m two or three years, and he thought it would h_ reasonable to limit its operation to .tw:o years. At any rate, there ought t.o be s.ome hm1t to the Bill. Although the taxatiOn mig.bt n<?t press sr heavily at the present moment, It might pmss very heavily in the course of two or three years time, and it wns not wise to make the Act per­manent. -!'s far as the state"?-ent that a p~i vate member might move a reductron, they all Knew what a private member could do. That was perfectly absurd, and no one knew that better than the 'rreasurer.

L1conre Tax Act [27 OcToBER.] A nu ml.t!ent Bill. 575

Question-That the proposed new clause (liir. Lliacr·:?·t,ley's) stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee dividerl. :-

Itir. Barne-:- illr. IIawthD:i'll narton Jenldnson Hone h:ud ,T. JJeahy Luneron , 1) .. T. I.eahy

, Coop~''' :ttiacartney Jlorre~t Paget Ji'ors. th Petrie _Fox· Philp Hauran Stodart Hanlacre Tolmie

Telle; s: ::.ur. Paget and 1Ir. J?ox. CIOES, 36.

XI1·. AireY :.Hr. I_Jand , Barber ., Lcsina , Bell , :Ylann , Blair .. ::\fartiu , Bowman ., 3-Iuxwell , Bridge-.. ., ::.\IcDonnell , Burrow:-. ,, Mitcltell , Cm.'mp ,, 3Ior:ntn , Denham }1nlcahy

Dunsfonl ,, 31urphy lhu1ge Xorman Grant O'Keeffe Hamilton Reinhold Hodgc Ryland .Jont--..; ,. St~ott Kenna Smart Kcrr ., Turne1· Kidstou T\ood~

TJller.-;: }Ir. Xorman and Jir. }Iaxwell. llesolved in the negative. Mr. l\1ACARTKEY moved the following new

clause:-The provi£ions of 8ection 4 of tllis Act shall cease to

have effect on a11d after the first day ot' January, one thousand nine ltnnclred aud six, except as to any right to recetn· or obligation to pay tax theretofore accrued or incurre(l.

The ohjed wac. to insist upon the Government bringing. up for revi,ion next yectr the scale of taxatwn under the Act, and thus enable Parliament to consider a reduction of the tax. It would ha,·e the effect of keeping the Govern· ment under the direction of Parliament, and unless there was some such provision in the Bill he feared they were not likely to get any reason­able amendment of it. It was highly desirable that the question should be submitted periodically to Parliament for review.

The TREASLJllER did not think there was any need to discuss this matter. He admitted that it was easier to re·enact one clause in a Bill than to re-enact a whole Bill, but so far as this clause was concerned, it was nractically the whole Bill. As a matter of fact the last division had decided the question. fie ventured to think that no sensibl8 Government would require pres"llre from l:'arliament to induce them to revise the Income Tax Act.

HoN. R. PHILP : This proposed new clause was not the same as the chnse proposed by the h?'~· member :for Enoggera, on which they had divided. That clause sought to make the Act terminable at the end of two years, but the clause now proposed by the hon. member for To~":ong sought to have the Act brought up for renswn eveiy two years. The Treasurer had pre\"iously compared this measure with the Act in _Great Britain; but in Great Britain they revised the A?t every year. He thought the Act should be reVIsed at least every two years. [Mr. LESINA: 'We might want to put on a land tax.] Yes ; and there was a good deal of property included in this Bill, and he thought it should be ealled "an income and property tax." He {Mr. l:'hilp) thought that this was going to he ~ tempo:ary measure ~hen it w:1s first brought m, and It remmded h1m that when the King of Spain recited his titles he called himself "The King of Spain and also of Gibraltar, now in the

temporary occupation of the British .. , He hoped that they would have been able to do away with this tax by selling land: but the leader of the Labour party would not allow the Govern­ment to sell land, and persisted in this income tax bf:ing continued.

()llestion-That the prOP''"ed new clause (11fr. J.liara,-tne;!'s) stand part of the Bill-put; and the Committee diYided :- ·

1Ir. Barne:'O Barton lloucl :1rtl Camerou

" Cooper rorrcst ForsYth Fox~

Hanrun Hardaere H;twthorn

1Ir. Airey Barber Jllair J~owman :BurrO\\ s Cowap Den ham l>unsfortl l~'udge

Grant ., Hamilton

Herbertson .. IIoctge

.Tonc:-:.­Kenna

, Ker,· Kidstun

.. r.ancl

J.Ir. Jenkinson J. J,eab,· P J. J.e'ahy ::.Hacartney

., Paget l'etrie Pbilp Spencer Stodart Tolmie

~Ir. Lesina :M ann J.'Iartin ~Taxwell ~1cDonnell Mite hell M organ ~1ulc•hy Murphy

.. Nm·rnan O'Keefl'e Rein hold Rylaud Scott Smart rrnrner Wood>

'Pelle!·s: ::O.Ir. Bowmv;J_ an·1 Thir. Cowap.

llesol vecl in the negati w. [10 p.m.]

Prep,mble put and passed. The House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN

reported the Bill with amendments. On the motion of the T!tEAS"GRER, thP Bill

was recommitted for the purpose of reconsider­ing the 2nd proviso in clause 4 and inserting a proYiso in clause li.

llEC0'BICTAL The 'fREASUllER Paid that he h<td pro­

mised to recommit the Bill for the purpose of reconsidering the position of Ininine:; companies under the BilL In the Dividend Duty Act 1nining cotnp::tni.es were granted an exemption as compared with o• her companies. Until prac­ticttlly the whole of the capital sunk in a mine was repaid ont of profits, no div·idend duty was payable. He proposed to incorporate thcct pro­vision in the clause'. Considering the risk mining companies ran of losing their whole capital without getting any return, it was only fair that some concession should be made. Before moving the proviso, however, he rnnved the omission of all the words after the word "upon" in the 3rd line of the last proviso, down to the word "company," with the view of inserting the words "such undivided profits." The proviso wonld then read---

Provided fnrther that where any of the profits of such company remain undistributed among~t the share­holders then upon such undivided profits only sixpence in each pound shall be payable as income tax.

Mr. M"ULCAHY said he had an amendment to propose in a previous part of the clause-that after the word "profits," in the 1st line of the last proviso, there be inserted the words "of a mining company remain undistributed among its shareholders such undistributed profits shall be exempt from the payment of income tax."

11/r.llfulcahy.]

576 Inrome Tax Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

The TREASURER: As the proposed amend­ment would destroy the whole of his proviso, he could not accept it. There wa'< another reason why he could not accept it, and thRt was that he was prnpo,ing to put back in the Bill the proviso in the Dividend Dnty Act, which gave a very large preference to rnining companies in the matter of paying duty or income tax on profits as compared with other companies included in the Dividend Duty Act. He w.ts willing to do that, and he was willin(( to reduce the tax upon n~d!stributed profits of all componies, including nJining companie~, to Gel. in the £ instead of ls. in the .£. But he wt~S not willing to give mining companies everything; he wan•ed a little from them. He thought mining members might meet him in the m ttttr, and accept what he proposed.

JHr. MAXWELL: When be rai,ed the ques­tion yestrrchy it was not with the view of enabling anyone getting dividends to evade payments to t!.e Treasurer, but that profits put to re::;erve; for future deveiopment, paying wages, :,nd buymg machinery, should not bt• taxed. There was a great rliff-rence between mining and other companies. Other companies could put by money to erect buildings which the Treasurer could not tax. Yiining companies bad t0 put down shafts and drive levels, and the outcome might be that the "hole of the outlay w"uld not be worth to the company one >hilling. rMr. J. LEAIIY: Do they get buildings put up for nothing?] No, but tl.1e building wa.s an asset, whi'e a useless shaft or dnve was not. Nobody who drew dividends would object to be taxed. ·what be objected to was money being taxed which eventually found its way into the pockets of the working cla'"es.

Mr. RYLAND hoped the Treasurer would accept the amendment. It was onlY a fair con­eesHion considering the a1nount of ~uncertainty there was jn mining as corr1pared with other industries. There ought to be no tax paid on a reserve put :1side to carry out the work of the mines. Tne tendency of 'rnining companit's was not to.build. up reserves, but to pay aw"y every­tbmg m cl!ndends, and then, if the gold gave out, they had to make a call for development pur­poses. The formatiun of reserves shonld be encouraged in every rLtsonal,1e wuy.

The TREASURER wished to point out that 1f the,cmendment w.1s ""rried at the present. st:1ge Jt would not only benefit mining companies but it would penalise othPr cotnpanie..\, and he pre­sumed the hon. member who moved it had no desire to do that. He would a-k him to with­draw. his amendment until he had fixed up the )JOSitwn of other companie.•, then it could be Tnoved as a further proviso.

}Ir. MULCAHY said he had no objection to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment withdrawn.

The TREASURER moved the omBswn of all words after "pound," in the 2nd last line of the proviso, "ith the view of inserting- "of the

undistributed profits." The result [10.30 p.m.] would be that those companies in­

stead of paying ls. on undistributed profits would only vay Gd.

HoN. R. PHILP: '.rhere were various com­panies which employed men as well as mining compames, and had reserves; and they ought to encourage all companies to have reserves and not penalise them. If the hon. memher for Gympie altered his amendment to it.clude all companies he would support it. He hoped the Treasurer would include all corn panieB and charge no dividend duty upon the reserves.

Question-That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted (the Treasurer's amend­ment)-put and passed.

[Hon. W. Kidston.

2\1r. MULCAHY: His amendment had been placed in the Chairman's hands, and he would like to show why there should be wme distino­tion made as betv . .reen ruining comp11~nies and other companies. I<' or the >ak e of illustration, at the fmd of December, 1903, there were 16G mining leases in Ch<1.rters Towers, and out of that number he could safely say there were not more than fifteen paying companies, or companies which were declaring di,idenrls. In Gympie at that elate there werf' 141 goldmining lea,es, and about the same number of companie;, out of which not rr1ore than eight cr,n1pctnics would be paying dividends. They would not be able to find 166com·

·panies engaged in any other business out of which such a small percentage returned anything at all. There was a great deal of the gambling element in goldmining, and the chances of g-etting into a good mine were twenty-five to one. There were a good many lea.,es forfeited every year, afcer beini[ in exi;tence for ten, fifteen, or twenty years without eecuring any profits. It frequently happened that men who were in dividend-payinf;' mining companies were paying into non-prorluctive cOll1IJanies. Some mt'rnbt-ra made verv light of the industry, and he really believed that wme of the :VIinisters gave very little consideration to it. lie "'as forced to that conclusion from his observations during the last few years. The mining industry was a very valuable asset to the State. In 1003 it produced no less a sum than £2,830,813. Gympie and Uharters ~r(1wers gave no leRs in that particular year than £778,8!ll:i in diviclencls, and the Trea­surer got out in round numbers £39,000 by way nf dividend tax. That was only for the gold­fields that year, and there were many other gold­fields. He had looked up the report, but could get no return from Mount 1\Iurgu,o, which was not given. [Hon. R. PHILP: £48,000.] Not­withstanding many hon. members did not think much of the mining industry, it had helped the St .. te along in bad times. \Vith regard to the tax on reserves of mining comvani' s, if they could only induce the companies, when they were working (ln payable ore, tiJ put a certai11 amount of money by in order that they might use it for developmental work at a later stage, that more than anything else would help the industry along. They frequently found that there were numbers of men with paid-up shares in one company, who 1Vere all the time preo<.J­ing other shareholders to gi,·e dividend,, becaus-e they knew if there ''·as r.;<~ing to be further development work done It was the contri­buting shareholders who would have to pay. Consefjnently there was always a tendency to pay out the whole of the money they bad in hand. It frequently happened tha\ a mining company found itself in this po.;iti<>n: they divided the whole of the profits, and tht-n in b:1d timeR calls bad to be rnade; the respon~es were not good, and then bands had to be reduc<-d. It would be infinitely better if, instead of trying to block eowparries as the Bill rlid from creating reserves, to encourage them to build up such funds. He wa3 rat bet surprised to hear the leader of the Opposition say there was no differ­ence between mining companies and pastoral companie'"· That was utterly wrong, and no man knew it better than the hou. gentle­man. It was a matter of speculation whether one would ever get anything out of mining, but a pastoral company usu,!ly got somethiog except during severe droughts. Taking into consideration the amount of money the Govern­ment got out of the mining industry through the dividtnd tax, they should not try to i•·jure it in the way proposed. There would he no difficulty in mining companies evading that provision if they so desired, as they would simply keep their amalgamation down below, and in that way build

Income Ta.r Act [27 OcToBER.j Amuulment Bill. 577

up a reserve. He hoped the Treasurer would accept the amendment. There were men in the House who through want of knowledge thought the industry was carried on at a great loss, but that was not BO. :;\fotwithstanding that there were only a few c1airna p::tying \vell, yet the re­turns from thmn \vcre so grc:1t that the average earnings of thE' men en~aged in the industry W{~re very large. The No. :3 Sonth G·reat E·-'t.Rtern de­clared in dividende last year £1lfi,OOO. Thftt \\T3}3 a srJcndld th-ing Ln· the State.

The TREASURER: As he had already told the Committee, he had not th sligh • est obje'. tion to accepting the antendment; in fact, he would rather accept jt than not, but it was to be on the distinct that he would not rrwve the other amendment. was a 111atter for n1lning mernbers to deterruine arnong thern-

the in ·\vhich the uf thf' be besr;

hon. rnrn1ber:, \-vonld w ,s not at all likely to amenfhnent, but if it w:ts nwve t:w otheL

]\[r. MUHPHY considered the provi,ions in the Dividend Duty Act were of more to Lhe rnining- industry thau the re::Je~·ves. \Vhen rnEn had paid their m1rney ]nto ~t rnine, and \vben there \Vas a chrtnce of getting a cli vidend, they wrmted their money back before :.;tarting to Lnild up a reserYe. I\s a Ulen1ber, he was prepared to accept tlJe iJ-

:·mrer'.s propnsa,l the provisions nf the Dividend Duty tbe provision about the 2~ pt>r cent. on reserves.

Mr. llfAXWELL: If thev tumcd to the report on H.avenswond they , would companie3 ol :00,000 sharH fnily p>eid 1

and those ,hares were sollin·; at Gd. who went into the 1narket ~nd hought sbares at CcL would ln.ter on tn tl e :::urer and explain that the tr·· ~ co:<.t him 5s., and that he wanted an exernrtion. Xo min<•r who was rnaki::g ruoney objected to a little tax :.tion. lie wanted to tax the lucky winner­the man who w•us getting divid<-'nds-'and not, to tax those ·who n1ade reRervcs to carry on de,'e]op­Inc-nt work.

not up. accept that he able n1embpr: pan~d to take prep:cred to crirrlinate bet:ween

fur

to \Vh

wnnld divide said he

wa" the ~·, :Jd of l Opposition

pointed out to the the t~lp-i.vorkings were abeolutely necessary to

1904-2 0

fo~

wn<:; not to rlis-

opportunity of Inaking reserves. He was that had trw late .Minister for Mines been of11ce the mining industry woc1ld not be so neglected as it now was.

Mr .• TENKINSOX: It appeared tu him that the Treasurer was detenninf<:l to put an ]Djustice on the mining ir1dustry one way or anothel\ and he offered the choice of twn nrnend-lilent they now dbcu~ . .:;ing a .. nH:mdnient the TrutSUl'Jr were tvvo things, and they shoultl each be treatHc1 on

1nerits. .A.R a lnatter of [11 p.m.] the mining indnstry,

shovld Le accepted. If the rne111ber for Gyrnpie was

then declined to f.'erhaps sorne other

anwn~hnent carried. rnd

his would do so.

:Hr. ::\.IURPHY : Ther, tlpinion <!-ll1ongst m.ini:ng should be reasonal.;le. The 'J~reasurer a C'rta.in collCt:>S:::-ion, and, if the

th a di \'isiou, he intended as he wm; prepared to split the \~·ere" To hear the hon. n1ernber for

and the hon. 1nembe1· for Gympie, it would be thought t ha,t there wn.s son1e legaJ cmact.tnent ;orcpelling 111inlng compa.nies to have resen,~

fund,..:;. Like· ot.her cornpanies, n1ining con1-p1n1:e::::; would only be r.nccesHful fron1 a fiuan0ial point. of view if they had good direct,JrR. He hoped that Ininingnletnb_,rs and th1)se interested

the industry would be willing to accept the· proposo.,l.

l\Ir. :\L\X\VELL: the Treasurer had to him and other mining rnernbers y~ ,terday, after tbe

wa~ interviewed on the subject, Ben introduced, he would h3Jve been quitP. ready

to acc,'pt it; but the amendrnent whlch wt; no\'i.' ~uhmitted was something quite different. t3on1e influence n1u.st lw..'.c been at -work eo-day that !1e

nothing· of, and ev2ry 1nining m~1nber know 'what that influence ,,~as.

}\fr. :UUI,C_\HY was precisely in same po ... ition as the hon. 1ne1Hber for Burke. r-day n1nrning they hn..d {L nweting, c1ft.,_ l'\A ards went to the Trca• urer vvith prnpo::.-;als)\ and he did not learn until that son1ething was going on that be knew uothing of.

Mr. COW _;_p n:;recd with the Son1ethin. hnc1 been

of mi:1ing , J-Ie about the

T:-.IoN. IL PHII.~P hoped they werA tH · going to wro.ngle all night over the matter. -.vn.s anxiou~ to help the 1nlning industry afi WE'll as all other industries. Of the two an1endments he preferred that submit red by the Trr limrer, but he suggested that the hon. gentlernaH should.

Hon. R. Philp.]

578 Income l<t'i' Ar' [ASSEMBLY.] Amendme!d Bil1.

reduce the lid. to 3d., and make it apply to all companies. As n, rule, n1ining corupanies did not build up reserves, and it. waD. Vd'Y hard to get them to do so, althoufrb, if they looked up the dividend duty returns for laet. yec,r, it would be seen tha.t they wert-~ the rnost pro-.perous clas. of compc.nie", i"'·'mncL as they paid £4S,OOO out of a total oi £77,000. He hoped the hon. mem­ber for Gympie ")U!d withdraw his amendment, a .. nd that the~'!, J.surer would reduce t:1e amount of the t<>x to 3d. 'l'hat would not be felt very n1uch n::; a tax on l'E.serves.

Mr. HERBERTSO::"J (who was Tecei1·ed with "hear, hears!") clairned the right to speak as a mining member, as the,\~ were several rnining fields in his electorate, and he, himself, had been connected with mining for the lest thirty-five years. Tvlining compa.niAs, as a rule, did not have reserve funds unlus they were in a very good financial poeition. He was quite prepared to support the Tren-urer's >tmendment. vVith regard to the meeting- of mining members which had been held, it sPemed to him most unfair that certain members should hold a meeting and dis­cuss matters and then claim that the whole Com­mittee sh mld accept their view". He objecte(1

to that sort of thing, quite irrespective of which side he sat upon. If mining n1atters were to bP dismh':crl, it should be done at a meeting where all rn8lnbers interegted in 1nining \vere present.

J\ir. DUNSFORD was sorry the Treasurer had not seen his way clear to accept the arnend­ment, but if mining members could not g-et all they wanted they mnst take the best they could get, and, since he regarded tlw amendment of the tTreasurer m; an ilnproven1ent on the clause. he was prepared to accept that us a compromise.

Question-That the worrb proposed to be inserted (l'vir. ilfnlcah?!'s amendment) be Bo in­serted-put; and the Committee divided:--

~l:r .• Jenkin8on .• P. J. I.eahy , J\iaX\YCli

AYJ:,;, 5. :VIr.

1'e!1et·8: l\lr. Jenkinsou anf1 :::\:IT -:tiulca:ay.

::ur. Airer _Bu·bel' BLll Blair l~ouchar(l Bowman

Cowap Den ham Dunt-i[ord

Han1·an Harda re Herhel'tf'O>J Jfodge .loncs Kcnna

'l'el1et'S : :!Hr. Dnn:-:fo:Tl

H.esol ved in the nega,i i ,.e.

Jir.

The TUEASlJHl~R rnov~d proviso be ntlded to the clause :--

Pr01>'itlcrl that the following· bo in

(11

R. Philp.

3-'Innn ~ntcl!el£ :\1or["an Jiur.phy :\oru,an

'kott Sman .'1omcr,'

VI'OO{le<

l}a;;ct

(21 ~o mm_ h of the dividends ns is !-ihown to the .-:atisfaetion or the Commissioner to ha Ye berm avplied Unring- the year in rc~peet of which the a~·.;essment is made for the purposes specified in the last prc:eeding pr{Jvislou slmll lle d<~cmed to be income derived from personal exertion, and shall be snbject t.a tax on that scale:

(3· In tile case of eomp.mies cmT~·ing on other bUSilH -"S bCSldPS the busine~s Of' mining, the CommissioneT m~y r._ qnirB the compa.ny to submit to him accounts verified in like manner as the retn1·ns hereby prescriber], and sho-wing ::;c.:p~tratcly the trans<W~tons or tlte comp~my 'vith respect to its milH'~ and \nUt resvect to its othrt• busine"<~, an(l the compa.ny sh~tll be entitled to the benefit of the forc;;oin~ provision :in resvect of so mn<'h of lts dividends as is shown to the l"at!.sfat qun of the Connmssioncr TO har~ lJecu applied during the year in respect of which tlw assrssment 1s matk for the pur­vo-_.es herein spccifiel:_;

"-±l When a mining cornr:my is recon:;trncted, nnd it i:; ~bo\, n to the s:LLisfaction of the Commi.:.:­sioner that after reconst1 uction the eompany il" to all intents and. purpo!'Cf< the same as before ree'~nstruction, suc-h re:'.on:o-;trncted com­pany shall be er~titled to the beucfit. of the foregoing provision in re:::pect of t lw tax as if no such reconstruction hnd taken place.

The dPcision of the Commissioner in even­such case slu,ll be final aml conclusiYe.

Mr. DUNSEORD thought that sub .. ection (2) should be amended so as to exempt profits "·hich were titken up in \Yorking expense:-::, and rrwved the omission of the words "deemed to be incon1e derived frmn pen:onal exertjon, and Rhall be sub­ject to tax on that sc1.le, '' with the view of inserting the word "exempt.''

Mr. MFRPHY : He understood th( Trea­Rurer to vrnmise that he woulrl insert in the proviso tlie provisions in the Dividend Duty Act to the effect that the first and subsequent dividends dt:clared and paid by the company shall be takcll to be applied, in the first plac-e, in repayment of the eo et actually incurred by the company before the dechtration of the first divi­dend in respect of labour or material employed in developing the mine, and, in the second place, in repayment of theee-fourths of t'..e <:ost of nny machinery erected for and other materio,Js from the mine. gentleman had not done th:1rt.

'\Vfv:; 110t t.be E'nrer) he \\'(}1_tld

Arnendn1ent \vithdra\vn.

Income l'atr Art [28 OcTOBER.] Arnt ulment Bill. 579

:Yir. l\TCRPHY thought the amendment had oe•,n wrongly circulated. It wa' a matter of regret that it was I.JOt circulated in a way th"t hon. members could understand what they were doing.

}fr. :\Il:LCAHY pointed out that in 'Western Austra.lia, the G-overnrr1ent found n.1oney out of '·evenue to erect State batteries, but here, if miners found the money for that purpose, the Governnwnt wanted to tax tllf'.Hl on it. 'l_lhere had been a deliberate set made at the mining industry, which was bad enough under tlF\ late G-o\·ernu~ent, but it wa-~ worse under this..

:Yir .• JENKIKSOX asked what the amend­ment was. He thought a clerical error had been mccde with regard to the use of the words ,. n1achinery erf~cted for raising ore and other Inateriah from the mine.'' \Vould the Treasurer accept this amendment : Omit the words ~.erected for r[ti~ing ores and other rnaterials frorn." with the view of inserting "in connection with,., It would then read, "and in the second place, in repayment of three-fourths of the cost of any machinery erect·'d in connection with the 1nine.··

The TREASURER: He had promised to put in here exernptions which 1nining c01npanies enjoyed under the Dividend Duty Act. Tha,t was <ex:tctly what he had done. [Government members : Hear, hear!]

A-1nendn1ent agreed to.

The TR!<:ASFRER moved that after line !J. upon page 4, the following proviso be added:-

Provided tlla,t when it can bC' shown to the satisfaction ot the that such borrowed moueys WCl'l' '0 borro"\Yed the p~u;sing ot tlw principal Act. anc~ thH.t the person p:il.ing intere~t on money so

is unable to deduct the tax yayable in respeet i dcrest, the Commi~:iioner may allow the

of intere·.t notwith~tandin:4 that the tax ha:-. not h~:'en paia t1tcreou.

money by wav of deben-to be paid on tho"e cle\wn­

n1uch larger in anionnt and it was 11t)t jlOS ~ibJe

ruaki::' any dednction frunr the :ntcre~t on the debentul~t-,.J. r_r11e amend1nent, .chert:J(;re, 'va.~ intended to jnstiee to sueh

would mean thnt

to

\Vt1rk

ba·;e 'iVS. being

_.;_n'!enrln1entagreul to and cL.u~e, as an1e1Hicd, rut .'nd pa.s--e(L

; <-tnd thB 13ill vv2 .. ;; reported

1\'Ir. j. LEAHY: I will not oucnpy the time' of the House for more than a minute or two. ThP. leader of the Opposition is absent, and has asked me to say on behalf of the Opposition that they proteot against the inclusion of the wonls in clan se \J, which were inserted last night-" The said se~tion shall be re~,d and construed as if the foregoing words were embodied therein at thP date of commencement of the principal Act." It is the opinion of the Opposition that those words should ne,·er have been included in the Bill-that they contain a wrong and outrageous princlp1e--a princlple fer ·which there is no prece­dent in the Britbh dominions. [The ATTORNEY­GENERAL : There are authorities for it.] There may be authorities to make certain things retrospective, hut not for the purpose of taking away a man's rights. [The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Ye:-::: where a case has been before the courts aud the !Jleadings closed.] I do not caro if there are fifty cases-it is w<ong: but I do not think there are. [The ATTORNEY-GE:;"ERAL: I will show it to you.] I do not desire to discuss the point. I simply rise to make a protest. Tbi, side of the House believes it is grossly wrong in principle and the violation of all moral right. [The ATTOI\NEY-GENERAL : Th,:re is ample authority for it.]

Question put and passed; and the third read­ing of the Bill made an Order of the lJay for to-n1orrow.

The House adjourned ,tt ten 1ninutes to 12 o'clock.