Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 31 JULY 1877

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Petttions. [31 JULY.) Formal Motions. 657

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

Tuesday, 31 July, 1877.

l'etitions.-Questions.-Formal Motions.-Customs Con­vention with South Australia.-Diseases in Sheep Act Amendment Bill.-Chinese Immigration BilL­Petition.-Real Property Bill.-Snpply-resumption of committee.

The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past three o'clock.

PETITIONS. Mr. ]\foREHEAD presented a petition in

favour of a mail coach service between Springsure and Blackall.

Petition received. Mr. STEW ART presented a petition from

Dr. Hobbs, relative to injuries caused to his property in Queen-street by the removal of earth therefrom, and praying inquiry and relief.

Petition received. 1877-2 T

QUESTIONS.

Mr. MACDoNALD asked the Secretary for Public vVorks-

1. ·what 11re the rates pm• mile charged to first 11ncl second class passengers from ancl to Brisbane, Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, and Oxley?

2. \Vhat reclnctions are made for Eeason tickets to the aforesaid places ?

3. Are the charges to other stations beyond Oxley at proportionate rates ?

The MINISTER FOR WORKS (Mr. Thorn) said-

1. The rates per mile between Toowong, Indooroopilly, Oxley, and Brisbane, arc:-

For first class, 3d. ; secom1 class, 2d. The fares for ]}filton are nmdethe same as Toowong.

2. The season ticket rates for Oxlev, In­dooroopilly, Toowong, and Brisbane are charged as nearly as possible at the follo~ing rates per mile, viz. :-

For 12 months, 16s. Sd. first class ; and lls. 8d. second class.

For 6 months, 9s. 2d. first class; and 6s. 5d. second cbss.

For 3 months, 5s. first class ; and 3s. 6d. second class.

For 1 month, 1s. 10d. first class ; anc11s. 3d. second cl!Lss.

The Milton mte is not according to mileage, but chargec1 the s11me as Toowong.

3. The charges to st11lions beyoncl Oxley are at the same rates.

Mr. J\'EuRPHY asked the Secretary for Public Works-

\Vhat will be probable cost of a low-level bridge o>er the Mitchell Ri>cr, on the road between Bycrsto-wn and Thorn borough ?

The MINISTER FOR vVoRKS said-The Engineer of Roads, N. D., estimates the

cost of a low-level bridge over the Mitchell, on the Thornborough-road, roughly at £16,000 to £18,000.

FORMAL :MOTIONS.

The following motions were agreed to:­By Mr. McLEAN-'rh!Lt there be laid upon the table of this

House, a return of all free passes granted 011 the Southm·n and \Vestcrn Railway since 1st J anu­ary, 1870, to 1st July, 1876; to whom, by whom, and 011 whose 11uthoi·ity, aml for how long granted.

By Mr. BuzACOTT-That there be laid upon the table of this

House, 11 return showing the number o.f persons employed in each electomte of the colony as paid ancl unpaid collectors of electomllists, with the cost of such collection in C!Lch clectomte during the yem·s 1875 anc11876.

By )fr. KIDGELL-Th!Lt there be laid upon the table of this

House, a return of the qu11ntiLy of gunpowder, lichofracteur, 11ud d>n!Lmite, stored in the Gym pie powder maga~ine, from the commence­ment of the present year to the 30th June, 1877 ; the fees paid during the same period for

658 Diseases in Sheep Act, Etc. [ASSEMBLY.] Chinese Immigration Bill.

such storage, ancl the amount of salary paicl to the officer in charge of the magazine.

By Mr. MACROSSAX-That there be !aiel upon tl1e table of this

IIouse, copies of all corresponclence bet wren the Agent-dencral ancl the Government on the sub­ject of Immigration.

OUSTO:.\IS CONVENTION WITII SOUTII AUS'rRALIA.

J\Ir_ \YALSII said that before the On1ers of the Day were called on he would like to ask the Pr0mier whether the Govern­ment were in possession of any further information from the Government of South Australia, in regaru to the H"ciprocity Treaty, bcyoml that which had already been furnished to the House ?

The PREMIER (1\fr. Douglas) thought it was an inconvenient time to raise a discus· sion on the subject, and said that he should be happy to answer any questions if the honourable member woulcl give notic!l of them in the usual way.

DISEASES IN SHEEP ACT AJ\IENDJ'.:IENT BILL.

The CoLOXIAL SECRETARY (::\fr. Miles), in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that under the present Act all sheep imported from beyond the colony had to undergo a quarantine of sixty days, and that thJ cost of quarantining sheep for that time amounted to £3 per head, which was considered almo.st prohibitory. The measure now before the House proposed to reducCJ the number of days from sixty to twenty-one. Ho had been informed that wme persons were in favour of the time being reduced to fourteen days, but he was not pr,·pared to go as far as that, as he thought that reducing it by two-thirds would be amply sufficient to meJt the views of people introducing stoek into the colony. He might mention that by the pres0nt Act sheep taken from one colony to another were subjected to the same quarantine of sixty days; but, as the neighbouring colonies were now all clean, it was thought rather hard that the term should be so long. It had also been the custom to remove sheep from one port of Queensland to another, independently of the Act; and it was nmvproposod by the thirdclausethat the Minister for the time being might suspend, either conditionally or unconditionally, the provisions of the Aet, in respect to any sheep carried coastwise from one port to any .other ]JOrt of QuPensland; w that if at any time the .;'11iuiskr had information of any sign of <lisease in sheep he could prevent them from being remo\·ed. The fourth clause was merely to ha ye the letter 'i', with which tr:n·P!lin;;; sheep were branded, impreJ&.sed with pitch or p:riut in ,

a manner to make it more eonspicuous. Vfith those remarks he woulll move the • second reading of the Bill.

Mr. MoRGAN, referring to the fourth clause, said he hoped that in committee some honourable member would moye that the size of the brand be reduced to h,-o inches. He had no other fault to find 1\-itll the Bill, and he hoped it would pass. ·

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

On the motion of the Colonial Secr0tary the committal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

CHINESE Il\DIIGRATION DILlJ.

On the motion of the PRE)IIEH, the Home went into committee on this Bill, to consider the Legislatiye Council'~ amc·nd­ments.

On the motion of the PRmiiER, the amendments in the title and pl·eamble -i1·ero postponed.

The PRE~IIER moYed that the Council's amendments in elausc 1 be agreed to.

J\Ir. PAL)IER said he should very much like to know why the Premier submitted to his own Bill being so completely altered by the other Chamber. The Bill 'vas severe enough when it left the Assembly, but the other House ha cl chosen to make it strictL'r. I£ the J.\.linistry wanted the Bill sent Home and refused they could not take a more effectual course. He main­tainecl that this Parliament had no right to exclude any natural born or natu­ralized British subject of Chinese origin­they might just as well exclude any native of the Channel Islands bclont5ing to Eng­land. He repeated that thls was a most extraordinary ammdment, and that it was still more extraordinary that the Govern­ncent shoulrl submit to it. If they thought that natural born or naturalized I3ritish subjeets of Chine~e origin should be ex­cluclccl ·why did they not propose it in their original Bill? '\Vhy did they submit to dictation from another portion of the J,egis­lature P '!.'here was no use, however, in feeling astonished at their conduct, for thev never did stick to their measm·pf<, He would also take the opportunity of refer­ring to an extraordinary speech which had been made on the subject of the Pre­mier's despatch by an honoura bTc member in the Sydney Lcgi~lature. The Premier quoted a pori ion of a telPgram l'C'~civedfrom that honourable mcmbPr as of grave im­portance; and considering how much use the l'rnnil'r had made of that gc·ntkman',; name, he (J\Ir. Palmcr) would like to know" hether lw endorsed his hmgungc-whctltPI' he was a rebel, as that honourable Jm•mh,'r had shO\Inhimself, and favom·cd thl' seprtration of these coloniPs P The lnngn:tge had been very much toned tlo>Yn in thtJ rq10rt of the sreech, he was informed ; but r;till it was

Chinese Immigration Bill. [31 JULY.] Chinese Immigration Bill. 659

most extraordinary language to be used by a loyal subject. The committee were entitled to learn whether the Premier or any member of the Ministry endorsed it. He would quote a few passages :-

" Everyone who thought with patience of the flippancy of Lord Carna1•von, was unworthy to hold any position in this colony. Now, what was the position Lord Carnarvon took up ? He wrote a very long despatch, uncl there were only two passages in it worthy of notice. Those were that the Bill that had been passed by the Parliament of Queensland must prevent (look at the far-fetched cha-racter of this notion) British subjects-that was to say Chinamen who had been naturalized as British subjects at Hongkong-from coming here, and that the Bill interfered with treaty obligatiops. Now, in answer to the first ground, though tlwre were such persons as British subjects in Hong· kong, they could bring certificates of naturaliz­ation from the uuthorities there and cxlmc lwro free. And in answer to the other ground, the treaty obligations must sink out of sight if they brought harm to us. He had uclvo· cated separation from the mother-country from no feeling of disloyalty to the mother­country, but from a feeling that it would be mutually advantageous. Some of the most brilliant statesmen and the most infiuent•ul men in England knew that these colonies were

• a clown-drao- upon the mother-country, and were a sour~e of clanger and anxiety when any question involving controversy or war arose between J<Jngland and other nations. This view was held by 1\fr. Gladstone, Lord Gran­ville, ,Golclwin Smith, and other men of that stamp of character. Whenever England was threatened with war or disaster, we were im­mediately plunged into a state of alarm and distress, and werd looked upon as one of the enemies of England's enemies, and open to a blow from them. lie asked the common sense of this llouse, was not this almost imperceptible tie that bound us to England, and "·as ad­vantageous to neither country, really paying too high a price for such a danger ? If we were separated from England to-morrow, would not that commerce which flo"·ecl from each country now remain as it was ? '\Vould not the same relations exist, and every· thing be exactly as it was ? If this country were sepurated from England the mother· country might go to· war when she liked, and we sh~ultl have no cause for anxietv or alarm. In reference to this subject of se1;aration, he referred to an article in a recent number of I he Fortnightly Re11iew, which was absolutely un­answerable, maintaining that the political tit' that held the colonies to England "·us as disll\S· trous to the colonies as to the mother-counhv. l<:very day brought us more and more proof of the absurdity, of the uselessness, and of the dano-er of this tic. '\V ere they not the other evm?ing engaged in a discussion involYing the ·expenditure of a million of money for an iron­ciacl to ward off the blows of l<~ngland'8 cucmiL''l? Was that a desirable state of things? \Yuuld we require an ironclad if we had not this politi · ml tie binding us to England, and im·olYing m in all the~e responsibilities and disasters? and IlUW we had this obnoxious political tie eomiE;;

upon us in a way that, if rurried_out and pers~s~ed in would be absolutely destruch ve of ourpos1bon as, a people, and of our prosperity as a nation.

Honourable members would probably agree with him that this was indeed nice lan­guagP. Here was another portion of the speech:-" He appealed to the natives of this country. Surely they would not be content with such a servile position. They surely would haYe some love of freedom in them. But tllC'y eould not say that they had a country s_o. long a; t h~y stood in such a dependent pos1t10ll [Cuptum Onslow: There would be a quarrel oYer the first President.] The honourable member might say what he liked about that. But he said that all the abuses in the "·oriel had sprung fr~m king­emft and priestcmH~ The true system of gov· ernment was Republican. 'lhese colonies \Yere becoming very great. He ventured to say that their collecliYe revenues were greater than the revenue of England in tl1e time of Elizabeth, and that their population \ms not much less thnn the population of Amcrie11 during the struggle for indc pendence. 'rh ere was some spirit, in the resist­ance of the American colonists. But the injustice put upon them was not greater than the in­justice now put upon us. for the case of Q ueenslund was our case. IV e would flncl i he people some day or other ea lling out agaimt the sort of tyranny to which the people of Queensland art> now subjected. l'erlmp3 it would be on this very question of Chinese innniJrration, if it were thrust upon us. Let it be understood, Lord Carn11rvon hml Yetoccl this Bill. He hnd c1one it either undeT a cloud of the grossest ignoranc<', or he had done it with his eyes open in the clear sunshine of noonday. If he hacl clone it under a cloud of ignorance, so much the worse for the colonies, so much the worse for England, 11nd so much the b.etter for those who advocated the severance of the tic. If he had clone it, with his <'FS open, and with a clear undershmdiog of the whole ques­tion, wh:1t graver enormity could he haYe bPen guilty of? lie says : Because we have entererl into obligations with China for our own selfish purpo•es, "·e have opened the door for a floQcl of (;hine~e barbarians to rrrin your people, aml we care not for that, inasmuch as we have done that which we considered was for our 0\Yll ad­vantage with the Emperor of China. \Y ould he stand to this? \Vas he prepared to reject the Bill which was now going Home from the Queensland GoYermncnt ? If so, he venturecl to say that the people of Qucens~and would give him a louder answer than he had eycr hearcl before, and it would be backed up by Victoria and N cw South \VaJ.,,; to a man. lie >YOulcl get an answer that "·onlcl bring him to his bearings, and king England to this conclu­sion, that she must either force this harchhip upon u,, or surrender to the colonies the solemn right of governing thmnsel res." After the use v.ltich h:td b2en made of the name of Jl.lr. J3nchan:m, wlto had dclincrccl that speech, he thnugltt the House and ihe country were entitled to hear >vhether the Premi"r b:tckcclnp suc·h bngnrrge. It arl­vocakcl separation, and the follm1 iug of tho c:s.amplc o£ Au:erica. Ho ihougut this

660 Chinese hnmigration Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Chinese Im1m:gration Bilt.

amendment before the committee was, at all events, an attempt in that direction. He had never heard of any other British colony endeavouring to lass a Bill which took away the rights o natural born or natural­ized British subjects; and he could only think that all this was an attempt to get up a quarrel with the mother-country, and to take every precaution that the Bill could not possibly be assented to by Her Majesty. With reference to that part of Mr. B'ucha­nan's speech which referred to separation, he was astonished that nobody in the Syd­ney House ever gave him the answer which would h:we come from the tip of his (Mr. Palmer's) tongue. The answer he should ha1c given was, that if we were to separate from the British Crown we should be less able to prevent Chinese immigration-we could not prevent this colony being over­run by Chinese ; and that if we wanted to keep out Chinese we had better preserve the support of the British Crown ; otherwise, we might find ourselves a Chinese depen­dency. Even the torpedoes which they had inspected the other day would not keep out the Chinese. He again said that the amendment was a most extraordinary one, and that the committee were entitled to hear on 11·hat grounds it was accepted.

The PREMIER said he hoped the honour­able member who had just spoken did not suppose that the Government would accept all the amendments of the Council. Some of the amendments departed unnecessarily from the scope of the Bill, and it would be his duty to move that they be dis­agreed to. There were several important amendments which he could not accept. With regard to the particular one before the committee, he did not think it was fraught with the clanger the honourable member anticipated. He was quite open to conviction, however. It certainly did exclude Chinese who had become natu­ralized British subjects for a certain object.

Mr. THO)IPSON: It also excludes natural born British subjects.

The PREMIER said those who were born British subjects ought not to be excluded. He imagined that the Council had made .the amendment simply to meet the case of Chinese who, for a certain purpose, became naturalized in Hongkong on payment of a fee of 2s. 6d. He clicl not think that kind of naturalization should carry with it all the rights of a British subject; he valued those rights higher than that. 'With re­gard to the extracts read by the honourable member, he had assumed that he (Mr. Douglas) read a telegram from Mr. Buchanan, or that he communicated in­formation received from that gentleman. He ne1er read a telegram received from Mr. Buchanan, and that gentleman never received his authority to take upon himself the duty of bringing this matter before the neighbouring Legislature. It was not at

his instance that Mr. Buehanan did so. He was anxious to respect the position of any honourable gentleman in the neigh­bouring Legislature : but he was also anxious to recognize his independence of action. He had exchangecl notes with Mr. Buchanan subsequent to the clay on which he tabled his motion; but he had never received any telegram from him, and the information he (the Premier) com­municated on the occasion to which the honourable member for Port Curtis alluded was received from an entirely independent source. He was not accountable for what Mr. Buchanan said, and did not agree with his language ; he thought a good deal of it was in bad form. He did not wish to reflect on JYir. Buchanan ; but he must admit that the construction which might be put on his speech was certainly not such as he should like to have )JUt on any words of. his. He clicl not think that anything which he had said or written in connection with this subject was unworthy of him and his position, and deserved the criticism of the honourable member for Port Curtis. He would wish the honour­able gentleman to understand that while he occupied his present position he had a duty to perform to Her Majesty the Queen, and that whilst he was aware of • the respect and allegiance which he owed to Her Majesty in his capacity as a sub­ject, he yet claimed the right to shape his opinion upon subjects connected with the ultimate indeJJendence of the Austi•alian colonies. Personally he thought it "\1-ould be for the benefit of the British Empire, and that it. might be desirable, under certain circumstances, that these colonies should be separated from the English Crown, if united and confederated; and he maintained that he could say this with a perfectly loyal feeling. At any rate, it was a specu­lative matter which they were not now called upon to discuss. If the question ever arose whether it would be desirable, in the interests of these colonies and of the British Empire, that separation should take place, then he should not hesitate to express his oninion in terms decorous but not less decided. He ho1Jed that the committee would proceecl with the discussion of the amendment. He had no desire to be dogmatic in the matter merely from a party point of 1iew ; he was anxious to pass the best measure possible.

J\fr. THOMPSON· said the whole question was whether the committee were going to exclude British subjects, born in Hongkong, who happened to be of Chinew blood. There was no doubt that the amendment before the committee did that.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Mr. Gri:ffith) asked for further information as to the ob­jections which were held against the amend­ment. He did not think that the committee need have any alarm for the naturalized

Chinese Immigration Bill. [31 JULY.] Chinese Imm1'gration Bill. 661

British subjects o£ other colonies ; but at the same time he did not think that the colony o£ Hongkong should have the right to make a man a naturalized British sub­ject £or no other object than to entitle him to the privileges o£ a British subject in Queensland. He would impress upon the committee that the Naturalization Acts o£ the different colonies were simply local.

Mr. KrNG said that not long since the hon­ourable member £or Port Curtis had in­£ormecl honourable members that British subjects born in Australia were not en­titled to land in India until security was given that they would not become a charge upon the country. I£ the Indian Govern­ment did this, he did not see why objection should be made to Chinese being subject to a similar imposition being made with regard to them by this colony. There was no doubt that the object of the Bill, and the object o£ the people o£ Queensland, was to exclude Chinese, no matter where they were born or where they came £rom.

Mr. PALliiER said he wished the member £or Ravenswood Vl'ould quote him correctly. ·what he did say Vl'aS, that grooms, going to India with horses £rom Australia, and working men were required to give the security. They could not possibly get employment there, and the Indian Govern­ment, in orde1' to protect itscl£ against their becoming a charge, required the security. He had referred more particularly to grooms going out with horses.

Mr. J. ScoTT said there was a great difference between the two cases. The Indian Go>ernment included all nation­alities, but this Bill be£ore the committee applied only to one particular nationality -the Chinese.

Mr. THOMPSON said there was no doubt whatever that the amendment would apply equally to British subjects born in Hong­kong, which was an island in the Chinese Seas, and formerly a part o£ the Chinese Empire.

The ATTORNEY -GENERAL said that the ehie£ objection o£ the Secretary £or State to the Goidfields Act Amendment Bill seemed to be that it affected the rights o£ natural born British subjects; and as the Government wished particularly that the Bill under consideration should become law, they would not object to yield a little on this point. If the committee thought the Bill was imperilled by the Council's amendment as it stood, it might be altered by the omission o£ the words " o£ any island o£ the Chinese Seas," and the inser­tion instead o£ "its dependencies."

Mr. P ALMER said that the son o£ a British man and o£ a Chinese woman would be excluded by the Bill as it now stood. It was well known that the son o£ an Englishman, whatever the mother might be, inherited all the rights of his father,

and he would de£y them to exclude the offspring o£ such a union.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that such a case as the one described by the honourable member £or Port Curtis would be met by the word parents ; one parent would be British.

:Mr. W ALSH said he disapproved, and was sorry to disapprove, o£ the conduct o£ the Government in proposing to agree to the amendment o£ the Legislati>e Council. I£ an Algerine clause like this was to become the law o£ the land it should have emanated £rom the honourable gentleman in charge o£ the Bill, and not £rom the Legislative Council, which, in the race £or popularity, seemed inclined to out-herod Herod. The Attorney-General had spoken o£ colonial naturalization as being local, which was equivalent to saying that a foreigner naturalized here going to New South ...,N ales would have to be naturalized there over again. He denied his law, which was in this instance as wrong as it usually was when he favoured the House with an' opinion. He wanted to know the precise meaning o£ this amendment, and what result would £ollow £rom it? It meant that no person could be £ree £rom the operations o£ the Act who was not ac­tually born o£ British parents, and was a native o£ the Chinese empire. If a Ger· man, French, or American subject be­came a naturalized subject o£ China would the Act apply to him? In his opinion the clause, as amended, would exclude children o£ French, German, or American parents who happened to be native born to China. He was astonished that the Premier had assented to this amendment; and he might remark that when he (the Premier) got up he could not make out whether he intended to apologize to the Queen, to Lord Carnarvon, or to the other colonies. It seemed that he was conscious of having done some wrong, and while try­ing to palliate his conduct still endeavoured to please the colony. The amondmen~ should be thrown out; and if the Govern­ment would not do so, he hoped that a ma­jority o£ the committee would. At that moment even there were Chinese gentle­men who had studied in the old country, and who had qualified to practice as barris­ters, who were as well able to expound the law as any member of the House, and who had contributed articles to Eng­lish magazines which were a credit to the British Press. They were living in London and Paris ; and yet these educated and re­fined gentlemen would, on landing in this colony, be subjected to a poll-tax. Perhaps the Attorney-General £cared the. arrival o£ these learned gentlemen; but that was no reason why they should £ear, and not rather welcome them to the colony.

:Mr. PALMER said he was glad to ha>e received the Premier's assurance that he

662 Oldnese Immig1•ation Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Okinese Immig1·ation Bill.

had not read a telrgram to the House from Mr. David Buchanan; but he maintained that he had been justified in assuming that he had, for he (the Premier) had led the committee to believe so. Quoting from liansw·d, he read-

''The, Premier, in moYing clause 10, said he had the satisfaction to-night of stating that he had received a telegram from Sydney, to the effect that notice had been given in the Legis­lature there of a resolution supporting the action the GoYernment of this colony had taken in reference to this questiOn, and conveying ex­Pl'essions of sympathy and support on the part of the Legislature of that colony."

After the Premier had been badgered by the House to mention from "hom he got the telegram, he said-

" He did not wi>h to give undue importance to the remarks he had made. He certainly had invited information on this subject from New tlou'.h VVules, but the information he had received was not so complete as to enable him to satisfy the honourable gentleman fully. It was well known that Mr. David Buchanan­abont whom he had no wish to speak except in the highest terms of respect-had given notice of a motion on this question."

He maintained that he was justified by these t"l1o statements in believing that it was from Jl.fr. David Bnehanan that he had received the telPgram mentioned from the manner in· "11hich the Premier had Rhirkcd and fought shy of the subject, and then mrntioned his name--

The PRE)IIER : I am not responsible for the honourable membL'r's belie£.

Jl.ir. PAL::UER said that he "\1as justified, by the manner in "11hich the Premier hacl shirked the question, in his belief, and he (the Premit>r) was rc~ponsible for it. How­over, he took hi~ disclaimer and was glad to hear it. "With regard to the amend­ment, he would say th'lt he did not like the Bill-he had never liked it. He "\1as as anxious as any man to keep the Chinese off the diggings, but this was not the way to do it. The easiest way to defeat the Bill, probably, "11as not to object to the Council's amendments, but to let it go, for then it would certainly not be assented to. He had said before, and he hoped he would not have to rep~at it again, that the only way to deal w1th the Chinese was to keep them off the diggings, and the only way to do that was to make an equal law prohibiting all aliens alike from mining for gold.

The PREMIER said he regretted tlutt the honourable membPr for Port Curtis should ~ce fit to repe-at a discussion and senti­ments they had heard so often before. As he was only anxious to frame a '1\ork­able meawro he "110uld adopt the sugges­tion of his honourable friend the Attorney­General, and move the omission of the

. 1rords "of any island in the Chinese Seas," "11ith a vie11· to the insertion o£ "its depen­dencies."

Mr. W ALSH said that the Premier had just moved that the amendments of the Legislative Council be adopted, then said that he agreed with them, and then moved an amendment on them. He (Mr. vValsh) would now put a distinct question : Sup­pose a native-born subject of China, natu­ralized in London, and admitted to prac­tice as a barrister, came to Queensland, "\1ould he come under the operation o£ this Act?

The PREMIER said he would be charged £10, in the same way as the British-born groom "\1ould be charged in India.

Mr. vVALSH was glad that they had a distinct statement from the Premier. They now knew that .a gentleman probably by birth and by education, and a member of the British bar, would have to pay a poll­tax before being admitted to Queensland. This would go forth to the world; and he hoped it would go forth that a Douglas Government had the credit o£ such a mea­sure.

Jl.ir. BAILEY asked the Government how they proposed to deal "11ith the children o£ tQ.c sw·arms of Chinese who were filling up such islands as Singapore ? They were already numerous, and soon would be counted by hundreds o£ thousands?

The PREMIER said it "11ould be time enough to deal "11ith the question when it arose. He was not a"\1are that the Chinese in those islands had many children. They might, perhaps, marry a few Malay women, but they had no Chinese females "11ith them.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that if they were not to tax e(lucated Chinese who came here, why should they tax the 18,000 here already? He thought they ought to utilize the Chinese they had, and in order to do so they should send to England, Ireland, and Scotland, and get 18,000 fine healthy women to mate with them. Hon­ourable members might laugh; but they wanted population, and here was a solution of the difficulty. The best "11ay to deal with the Chinese they had already was to utilize them.

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted stand part o£ the question­put and negatived.

lVIr. Jl.lAciwssAN asked if this clause would allow a naturalized Chinaman to come into the colony? I£ so, they might as "ell tear the Bill up.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it would not.

Mr. \V ALSH said they had now arrived at a happy state of legislation, when Her ~1:ajcsty's subjects, according to the dictum of the Attorney-General, would not be rcllowed to enter this cglony free. That was the effect of the statement which he had dared to make-that Her Uajesty's subjects would not be allowed to land here without paying an odious impost. He would

Chinese Immigt•ation Bill. [31 JULY.] Chinese Immigration Bill. 663

not stand there and see Her Majesty's Government prostituted by such a measure. It was a disgrace that thJ Attorney-General should say that a free British subject might be exclu.decl from thJ colony.

The ATTORSEY-GE:>ERAL said that the commentH of the honourJ.ble mcmb~·r for W arrego were very amusing. He had only replied to a question asked him, to the best of his ability.

Mr. IVORY asked if the Attorney-General believed th:.tt the Bill would e\·er become law P

The ATTORNEY-GE.xERAL said that in his opinion there was very little doubt of it, if passed by Parliament.

Question-That the worcls proposed to be inserted ha so insertecl-put.

The committee divided :-. AYES, 22.

· 1\fessrs. Douglas, Griffith, Miles, Dickson, Stewart, Kidgell, Pettigrcw, Kingsford, IIock­ings, Fraser, G. Thorn, l\IcLean, Beor, King, Low, JI.Imphy, J. 'fhorn, Grimes, Tyre!, 13eattie, O'Sulli>an, and JI.Iacrossan.

KoEs, 10. lifessrs. Palmer, Thompson, \Valsb, Buzacott,

Ivory, JUorehcad, Gralmm, l\Icllwraith, JI.Iac­Donald, and J. Scott.

Question, therefore, resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. MoREIIEAD asked if a nuti ,.e of China, decorated by Her Majesty in the same manner as the honourable th:J Premier had been-and it was 1Yell kno1Yn that a member of the LogislatiYo Council of Singa­pore had been so decorated-would be admittecl into Queensland without paying this tax P He would like to know the Attorney-General's opinion o£ the action of the Bill in this case, and what he supposed the honourable JHr. \Vlutmpoa would think of it P

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if Mr. Whampo:t was a native of China he would be subject to the same provisions as

.any other Chinese. An exception might be made if he came here as an amba~sador.

Mr. J'IIoREIIEAD asked why a Chinese ambassador should b:J treated differently from an ordinary Chinaman P It might per­haps be as welt to insert a clause in the Bill to that effect.

The PRE~IIER said it would be quite time enough to consider that qu0stion when there was a chanc3 of an ambass:tdorfrom Pekin arriving on a mission to Queensland.

Mr. \V ALSH said he thought the question of the honourable member for l\fitclwll was a very fair one>, and oughbto receive a more serious answer. The meaning of that ques­tion was, whether Que2nsland should retro­grade in the estimation of the world, and in prosperity, and whether, for more p::trty purposes, she should pa~s pemicious laws P

Mr. MoREHEAD said there was nothing in the Bill which would warrant the Pre-

mier, or any future Premier, in admitting eYen a Chinese ambassador without paying this tax. Both the Premier and Attorney­-Gt>neral had treated the matter far too lightly, and the ·reply of the Attorney­General was an absurdity on the face or it. The colony dare not put a tax upon a gen­tleman occupying as high a position as any occupant of the Treasury benches, and who had bDen decorated by Her Majesty in the same manner as the Premier of this colony.

Question-That the Legislative Counc·il's amendment, as amended, be assented to­put.

The committee divided :­AYES, 20.

Messrs. Douglas, Dickson, Miles, Grifllth, Thorn, Kingsford, 8tewart, Hockings, Frasor, Kiilgell, 13eor, Murphy, J. Thorn, Grimes, Beattie, lifacrossan, King, Pcttigrc>Y, ::\!cLean, and O'SulliTan.

NoEs, 11. l\Icssrs. Palmer, Thompson, \Valsh, 1\fdl­

wmith. Graham, Morehead, IYm·y, J. Scott, Fox, l\Iac lJ onald, and lluzacott.

Question, thcreforc, resolved in the affirmative.

The PRE1IIER then moYod that the Lcgis­latiYe Council's amendment in clause ::l be assented to. As had often be~n ~tated, he said the object of the Bill was to restrict the immigration o£ Chinese, and by substi­tuting "ten" tons for "five" tons that object might be more easily accomplished. It would compel owners of passpnger steamers to bring a lesser number of China­men by each vessel.

JYir. lnoREHEAD asked whether the Pre­mier 1Yould have asst'ntcd to the insertion of "fiHy" instead of "five" P Thatwoul<l compel passenger ships to bring a still smaller number of Chinamen on each voy­age.

The PREmER said that ten tons was thn amount fixed by }JreYious Bills of this kind in New South \Vales and Victoria. It was extremely repressive, no doubt, but it was intcndecl to be so. He did not think it necessary to go beyond that amount.

Mr. \VALSH asked why the Government did not introduce all their important me:1-sures in the Upper Chamber P \Veeks were spent in this House in discussing Bills by which the Goyernment intimated their intention to stand or fall, and then they were returned from theLPgislative Council materially altered in principle ; and the House was then asked to accPpt them in their altered form. There had b2en a great struggle over this Bill, and noyv, at the dictation of a nominee Assembly, they were going to alter it most materially.

Question put and passed. The PRE}IIER proposed that the amend­

ment in clause 7, omitting all words bCJ·

664 Okinese Immi9ration Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] O'hinese Immi9ration Bill.

tween the word "him," in the 46th line, and the word "paid," in line 8 on page 3, be disagreed to. The object of the Bm being to make provision against Chinese becoming a charge upon the colony, it was believed that this could be done fairly in the mode first proposed. After a China­man had lived here a certain number of years, and had not been a charge upon the revenue, it was intended that his money should be returned to him on his leaving the colony. That was a milder form than the one adopted by the Legislative Council. He believed the Council had been influ­enced in making this alteration by a des­patch from the Duke of Newcastle some twelve years ago, addressed to another colony, in which his Grace pointed out that if legislation of this kind was intended it was desirable that the Bill should be as definite as ·possible. He (the Premier) was anxious to see the Bill remain in force for a very long time, and for that reason it was preferable to abide by their own clause, and to disagree with the alteration intro­duced by the Legislative Council.

Mr. "\V .A.LSH said the argument of the Premier might have been used just as fairly towards the previous amendment. It was perfectly absurd to adduce one argument for one amendment and another argument for another amendment. His opinion was that the Chinese were the most profitable class of colonists in the country at the present moment. The sum paid by them in the shape of Customs duty for the necessaries of life was greater, he believed, than that paid by any other class of the community. It was well known that the Customs revenue at Cook­town and other Northern ports was greater in proportion than that of any other ports in the colony. At Cooktown alone oYer £70,000 were collected as Customs duty last year. They had no right to assume that the Chinese would be a tax upon the colony. vVithout these very men what would be the use of the Northern ports ? It was owing to their jealousy ofthe North­crn ports that some honourable members were induced to aid the Government in passing this un-English and · un-Queens­land -like measure.

l\fr. PETTIGREW thought the Legislative Council had done very well in striking out clause 7, for otherwise not a farthing of the tax would ever come into the hands of the Colonial Treasurer. If the clause in its original form were retained the certi­ficates mentioned in the previous clause would simply be lodged in the hands of the Chinese bankers at Cooktown and else­where, and whenever a Chinaman wanted to leave the countrv at the end of three years a certificate would be given to him from those bankers, and he would present it and receive the money. And who was to dispute that he was the right man P I£

they wanted to keep the Chinese out of the country it should be done boldly.

M:r. IvoRY said that instead of the Chinamen getting their money baek the chances were all against their ever receiv­ing a farthing of it. The onus of proof was to lie upon the Chinaman, that he had not been a charge to the colony. The Gov­ernment might as well leave the clause as it came clown from the Upper House as try to bring about the same result by a roundabout method.

Mr. Fox agreed with the previous speaker, that as there was no likelihood of the Chinamen having their money re­turned it might as well be retained in a straightforward way.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that what­ever differences of opinion there might be as to the propriety of imposing a poll-tax, there was no reason whatever, when they were aware of the enormous burden the Chinese 1vere to the colony, why proper security should not be exacted for their good behaviour here. That was clearly within their own province, an(l no objection would be taken by the Imperial authorities to their making so reasonable a provision. The principle of the poll-tax had been objected to, and might be objected to again; and a clause like the one originally introduced was more likely to pass and continue law than in its form as altered by the Legislative Council.

J\fr. 'V .A.LSH said he wished t.o know what were the enormous burdens to which the Attorney-General had referred. The honourable gentleman should be prepared with facts and figures, for a mere assertion of that kind was not sufficient.

Mr. IVORY said his only objection was that the clause in its original form was not a fair one. If the onus of proof were to be thrown upon the officers of the Gov­ernment, to show that the Chinaman had been a charge upon the colony, there would be straightforwardness in it ; but it was the evident intention of the Government that this tax of £10 should never be paid back. The Assembly ought not to lend itself to unfair legislation.

Mr. KIDGELL said it was quite possible that a Chinaman might come to the colony for commercial purposes, and might remilin here for only a few weeks. It would be a manifest injustice to· take £10 from him and place it to the credit of the consoli­dated revenue. The mere infliction of this £10 tax, although there was a probability of its being repaid at the end of three years, would have a great restrictive effect; for although to get it returned the China­man who had lodged the amount would have to leave the country, yet that would be a good thing, for in so refunding the money they would be getting rid . of o~e Chinaman at least, and so lessemng th1s very undesirable class of immigrants.

Ohinese Immigration Bill. [31 JULY.] Okinese Immigration Bill. 665

Mr. IvoRY said that the onus of proof of a Chinaman being a charge on the country should be upon the Government, and that it should not be made imperative upon a Chinaman to prove that he had not been such a charge. The clause was unfair, as the real meaning of it was that the money was to be taken charge of by the Govern­ment, with very little prospect of their returning it. If they wanted the money they should take it at once, and not say that they meant to give it baek if the man had been no charge on the eountry, when they knew very well it was in the power of any Government official to put a Chinaman to endless trouble to prove that he had not been a charge on the colony.

Mr. Fox thought it would be better to let the amendment go as it was.

Mr. HALY said he agreecl with the hon­om·able member for Burnett, that the onus of proof should not be thrown upon the Chinese. He thought it would be better, instead of doing that, for the Gov­ernment to put on a poll-tax at once, and let the Chinese lcnow that they were not, either rich or poor, wanted in the colony.

Mr. PETTIGREW said he did not think it would make any difference, so far as regarded the Bill receiving the sanction of the Imperial Government, whether a poll­tax was charged or not, as Acts for the im­position of a poll-tax had been passed some years ago both in New South \Vales and Victoria, and had received the Royal assent.

Mr. \V.A.LsH said that the Attorney­General stated that the poll-tax was to be imposed because of the burden caused by the Chinese on the colony; but he (Mr. vValsh) had endeavoured to show that those people were not a burden, but were, on the contrary, actually profitable to the country. He thought, therefore, the Attorney-Gen­eral should prove to the committee how those people were a burden. From inquiries he had made, he himself believed that in all parts of the country where the Chinese were congregated,"less was paid for police protection, less £or judicial administration, and also considerably less was spent on the roads, than in districts where there were no Chinese ; whilst at the same time they contributecl far more, in proportion, to the revenue. Yet, in the face o£ that, the honourable gentleman said that a poll-tax should be placed upon them because o£ the burden they caused to the colony. He thought the statement o£ the honourable gentleman was not justified, but was merely made use o£ for the purpose o£ paci­fying the Government supporters and beguiling the country at large.

Mr. THOMPSON said that, as regarded the Chinese being a burden on the country, he might mention that in the report of the Commissioner o£ Police it was stated that, so far as police protection was concerned, they were no burden whatever.

Mr. HALY said that he understood the Attorney-General to say that it was to prevent the Chinese becoming a burden to the country that a poll-tax was necessary.

Question put. The.committee divided:­

.A.YES, 20. Messrs. Thorn, Jl.files, Dickson, Low, Groom,

Douglas, Griffith, Stewart, Hockings, Kidgell, ·O'Sullivan, Gal'l'ick, Buzacott, Fraser, Murphy, Foote, Beor, MacDonald, Perkins, and Grimes.

NoEs, 4. Messrs. Thompson, Ivory, Haly, and Fox.

The PREMIER moved that the amendment o£ the Legislative Council in clause 10 be disagreed to. That clause was inserted with a view o£ allowing Chinese residents to leave the colony £or a temporary pur­pose, and he thought it would not be fair to prevent them from doing so. He could not help thinking that the intention of the clause must have been overlooked by the other Chamber.

Question put and passed. The Pll>EmER moved that the new clause

after clause 10 be agreed to. Question put and passed. The PREMIER moved that the amendment

in the preamble be disagreed to, it being unnecessary from the committee not having agreed to the other amendments.

Question put and passed. The PREMIER moved that the amendment

in the title of the Bill be disagreed to. Mr. W ALSH said he quite agreed with

the Premier in his motion, as he did not believe that the Chinese would be a charge on the colony. He had already asked the Attorney -General how they would be a charge, but had received no reply from him. He had also made inquiries outside the House, and had been unable to find that those people were any pecuniary charge on the colony. He should divide the com-mittee on the question. .

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it had been pointed out, over and over again, that the Chinese were a charge. The honour­able member for vVarrego had, no doubt, a right to hold what opinions he ehose on the subject; and at the same time the Government could hold theirs.

Mr. vV ALSH said it had never been at­tempted by any member of the Govern­ment to show that the Chinese were a burden on the colony. It had been asserbed, but not proved; although it had been admitted on all sides that they were an unsuitable class o£ people £or the country. As he had already stated, he believed that they contributed more to the revenue and cost the country less than any other class of the qommunity.

Question put.

666 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The committee divided :-.. A.YES, 21.

J\feesrs. Thorn, Diekson, DonglaR, Griffith, ::'.files, Stewart, Low, HoekingR, 1\:itlgt>ll, Gar­ri,·k, Groom, 11Iurph!·, Bear, ;\IneDonaltl, Per­kins, Foote, Tyrel, :F'rn.ser, Pettigrew, Grirues, antl O'Sullivtm.

NoEs, 6. Messrs. Walsh, Thompson, Ivory, J. Scott,

ITaly, and Fox.

On the motion of the Premier the House · resumed, and the Chairman reported that the rom:uittee had agreed to some amend­ments, had disagreed to o(hers, and had agreed to an amendment with an amend­ment.

The report of the committE'e was adopted, and tlw Bill ord0red to be transmitted to the Legislative Council with the usual mes­sage.

PETITION.

'Tlw SPEAKER said that the petition pre­sented by the honourable member for 1\iitclw ll was in contraYention of the Stand­ing Orders. It asked for a sum of money from the public funds, and this could not b~ receivPd unless recommended by the Crown. The usual course, under these circumstances, was to propose that the rPso­lution receiYing the petition be rescinded.

On the motion of the PRE~IIER the reso­lution was accordingly rescinded.

REAL PROPERTY BILL.

· On the motion of the CoLONIAL TREA­SURER, the Order of the Day for con~idering this Bill in committee was postponed.

SUPPLY-:RESU:\fPTION OF 001\f­liH'.rTEE.

The House went into Committee of Supply.

The CHAIRMAN said the question was­That a vote of £10,130 be granted for the Immigration Department.

Mr. PAL:\IER said he should like to know from the Premier whether he intended to remove the secretary from the Agent­General's office, after what he told the House last year P

The PRE:l<IIER said that it had neyer been intended to remove 'him. Mr. Hamil­ton had proved himself a very efficient officBr, and was discharging his duties satisfactorily.

1fr. P ALMER said that the Premier last year considered that the secretary and the Agent-General ought not to be in the same office. From information he had received he could assert that the tendency of the office at present was to giYe contracts back to Messrs. Taylor, Bethell, and Roberts. He would ask whether it was intmded that the contracts should thus go back to men who so shamefully carried out the

contracts for the conveyance of immi­grants P It had been suggested by the honourable memLer for Maranoa that the GoYernment had the remedy in their own hands, by deciding in the colony upon the tenders. 'l'he Government had the remedy in their own hands, if they would adopt this suggestion.

The l'RE~IIER said that, in reference to the tenders for immigrants now in exist­ence, h') haclno information which led him to infer that they were not being satisfac­torily performed. }~e believed that they were, on the whole, bemg well carried out.

Mr.PALMER: \Yhat about the "Zamora"? The PREMIER said he questioned very

much whether, under any contract, cases would not arise which demanded inquiry. So far as Taylor, Bethell, andRoberts were concerned, he b;;lieved they had brought

·out some iron, and that in that case they were the lowest tenderers. Nothing had occurred which disqualified them from bringing freight. It must be remembered, at the same time, that he did not at all justify their conduct with regard to the conveyance of immigrants in some of their ships;· but it must not be forgotton that they had brought out many immigrants in excellent order. He believed that evils existed more or less in every contract, unless very closely looked after. Of course, it was the duty of the Agent-General to see Yery closely that the contracts were properly performed. There was no reason to suppose that, on the whole, the immigrants were not being brought out under proper control and in good ships.

JYir. PAL~IER wished to know whether the committee were to understand that the colony was to go back to the firm of Taylor, Bethell, and Roberts P

The PRE)IIER replied that he did not say u1.at, and the honourable member had no right to assume that. he did. Taylor, Bethell, and Roberts were not the con­tractors for the carrying of the immi­grants, and he was not. aware that they were likely to go back to them. He had no information on the subject.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that the Colonial Secretary must surely have information as to who were the lowest tenderers. The honourable gentleman should let the com­mittee have all the information that was in his possession.

The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY said he had no information as to the acceptance of ten. ders for freight, but he believed that the. Agent-General was very cautious before he made any contract. By last mail only he had asked for the consent of the Goyern­ment to extend the time for the oonyeyance of immigrants-the contractors, through not having sufficient vessels, being unable to complete the contract within the time. He had a return in his hand, showing the amount of freight paid to Taylor, Bethell,

Supply. [31 JULY.] Supply. 667

and Roberts, :from May 24, 1876, to May 23, 1877. The amount was £1,018 4s. 6d. This firm was only excluded from the con­veyance of immigrants, and he presumed that the Agent-General gave them the car­rying of the :freight because they were the lowest tenclerers. He had no communica­tion on the subject however. ·-with refer­ence to the contracts for the conveyance of immigrants, he might say that, with the exception of the "Zamora," the surveys which he had caused of the surplus stores had come out very well indeed. In fact, one vessel had almost sufficient provisions to take her back again. The " Indus " and " Southesk" made short passages, a,nc1 had a large quantity of provisions left.

Mr. P ALMER said he wished to know why the Immigration Agent in Brisb:tne had not been put down for an incrm1se of salary. He had reason to helieve that an increase had been for some years promised to this officer, who was a very old and hard­working servant. He had been in the Colonial Secretary's department for a great many years, but no increase was set clown for him, although there had been for officers quite fresh in the service. It had been proposed to promote the chief clerk of the Colonial Secretary to very nearly the salary of the Immigration Agent, but the Immigration Agent was overlooked. He should like to have some explamttion on this point.

The CoLO::HAL SECRETARY thought that the finances of the country did not permit o:l' an increase being set clown for the Im­migration Agent. If, however, the House would acquiesce, he should be very glad to put it on the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. Low said he should bJ very glad to see that done.

Mr. PETTIGREW said he thought that be­fore they began to increase the salaries of officers in the r.olony the House should b11 informed what work had been done at Home by the secretary to the Agent­General. A large quantity ofmaterialhad been purchased, but the secretary was paid a miserable pittance, simply because he did not happen to be a friend of the honourable member for Port Curtis. Every charge that could possibly be thought of had been brought against :1\fr. Hamilton ; but he could state, for the edification of the hon­ourable membe1· for Port Curtis and the whole House, that Mr. Hamilton was pre­pared to have every charge investigated. It had even been tried to rake up the " Groper" business against him, although he had had nothing to do with it. It was Mr. Daintree who had to do with that; but his friend the honourable member for Port Curtis said that no charge must be brought against him because he was sick. He would ask why was the engineer, Deas, appointed by Mr. Daintree? The commonest officer in this colony received

a salary of £450 and a :free house. An ordinary police magistrate, without ability, received £300, and anything extra that could be put in his way, besicles free rail­wayp~sses. He would ask, therefore, before it was proposed to put any other increases on the Supplementary Estimates, what was intended to be clone for the man who did more work than any dozen of the officers he had referred toP ·The secretary's re­muneration was paltry in comparison with the work he had to do. There was more work now to do than when Messrs. ·wheeler and Daintree were in office ; and the charges insinuated against Mr. Hamilton should be inquired into, instead of being harr:ed upon continually. The MinistPr for vVorks should be in his place to tell the committee what amount of rails, engines, and other material had been sent out since his Gov­ernment O'Lme into power. He was aston­i~hed at the Premier saying last year that Mr. Macalister and Mr. Hamilton should not be in the same office together, seeing that they had not been fourteen days to­gether. Something had been said about freights. He took it, however, that tenders had been called, and that Messrs. Taylor, Bethell, and Roberts, being the cheapest, were accepted. There was no :friendship in a transaction of this kind, and it was useless to bring ·up the name o:l' Taylor, Bethell, and Roberts in connection with it.

1fr. PH~IER said that the Colonial Sec­retary must know that if a sum was not }JUt on the Estimates for an increase to the salary of an officer it would be impossible for the House to increase it. He could not get the opinion of the House on the question till this was done. ·

Mr. STEW ART said he hoped that as the Colonial Secretary had expressed his wil­lingness to increase the salary of the Bris­bane Immigration Agent, at the suggestion of the honourable member for Port Curtis, he would bll prepared to do the same for other· members. An able and efficient officer, the Clerk-Assistant to the Ll'gisla­tive Council, had had an increase to his salary cut down the other night at the suggestion of the same honourable member.

Mr. BuzACOTT said that he had quite agreed with the remarks.made by the Pre­mier last year, to the effect that :1\fessrs. Hamilton and Macalister should not be in the same office ; and although the honour­able member for Stanley had made a speech in favour of the former gentleman, he was quite sure that honourable members felt that the London office would go on more satisfactorily if one or other of them were removed. He took the refusal of the House to increase the salary of the Agent-General as an indication that the feeling was as he had stated. He himself was prepared to allow that £1,500 was not an excessive salary for the office ; but, he voted for keep­ing the amount down, because he could not

668 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

feel that the present officer was fit for his position, or had attained it in an honour­able way. Mr. Hamilton was in former y&ars an active electioneering agent for Mr. Macalister, and was selected by him to be put over the heads of other deserving officers of longer standing in the Civil ser­vice ; the two should not, therefore, now remain in the same. office together. }fr. Macalister first gave him temporary em­ployment in the colony, and then sent him Home; and the only reason for his selection was, that Mr. Hamilton had been a personal friend and supporter. Then Mr. Mac­alister went Home to become his superior officer. These circumstances were cer­tainly suspicious ; and when the Premier said that these gentlemen should not remain in the same office, he spoke .as he ought to have spoken. The honourable gentleman should not have withdrawn from the assertion, and he had not raised him­self in the estimation of the House by doing so. Both salaries should have been raised; £1,500 was not too much for the salary of an Agent-General, al).d £600 or £700 for the other office; but while the two gentlemen remained in the same office, with no one to watch them, and while they employed such an excessive staff of clerks, he for one would always vote against any increase to their salaries. The committee had received no information from the Premier why so large a staff was employed in the London office, and they should insist upon getting one before vot­ing the salaries of the officers in that department. It w9uld be much more eco­nomical to pay higher salaries to a sm~ller number of men, so as to have security against the existence of improper practices. He did not think that honourable members were at all satisfied with the manner in which things were conducted in the Home office at the present time.

Mr. GROOM was inclined to think that Mr. Hamilton was very well paid at £500 per annum. It was useless for the honour­able member for Stanley to say Mr. Hamil­ton was a Heaven-born Civil servant-he was nothing of the kind; he was simply chairman of Mr. Macalister's election committee at Ipswich, and it was because he had contributed largely to the defeat of the present member for the Brcmer that he had been pitchforked into the position of police magistrate at Cooktown, over the heads of all the Civil servants in the colony, and into a place where a thorough know­ledge of the law was especially requisite. When a vacancy occurred in England he was sent to fill it, again over the heads of older and deserving Civil servants; and there could be no doubt that he was very well paid for his office. He quite agreed with the honourable member for Rock­hampton, that it was not desirable that Messrs. Hamilton and Macalister should

remain together. He made no charge against .either of them ; but from their pre­vious connection they should not be together now. Besides, the salary of the secretary to the Agent-General of New South \Vales was only £500, and that of the chief clerk and accountant £200. In that office tht>re was only an Agent-General, secretary, and two clerks ; they had three clerks, and the Agent-General for Queensland had fourteen persons in his office. Mr. Hamil­ton was, without doubt, very well paid, and he was not entitled to any higher salary. He would not consent to any increase. "\Vhen the Premier last year gave his opinion that Mr. Hamilton should not remain in the same office as Mr. Macalister he was cheered by both sides of the House, and nothing had since transpired to alter their opinions or change the position of things.

Mr. STEW ART said that he did not rise to advocate any increase in salary, but he took exception to the remarks made by honourable members about Mr. Hamilton, unless they were prepared to bring some definite charge against him. When the vote was before the House last year, and the Minister for Lands said that he did not think Messrs. Hamilton and Macalister should be in the same office, he (Mr. Stowart) then objected to the remark, and he took exception to it now, unless accom­panied by some specific charge of incapa­city or of a graver nature. Last year they had had hours of discussion about the bond which Mr. Macalister had to give, and they had been told that he could not procure ono. Yet what was the fact P The Govern­ment had now two bonds. "\Vhen it was remembered that the last two :Agents-Gene­·ral had not found one bond between them, and that l\fr. Macalister had provided two, the less that was said about the

•matter by honourable gentlemen opposite the better. He (Mr. Stewart) had only spoken on one occasion for about five minutes with Mr. Hamilton; but he was of opinion, from the way in which he per­formed his duties, that he was one of the most efficient officers in the Government service. "\Vith regard to the statement that he had been put over the heads of other Civil servants, honourable members must remember that there were some offices which ordinary Civil servants were not qualified to fill. Mr. Hamilton, he be­lieved, had not been appointed on the recommendation of Mr. Macalister at all, but at the instigation of Mr. Hemmant, who found out that Government was paying more for freight than the mer­chants of the city, and, therefore, selected a good business man to go Home to look after the business of the colony. Mr. Hamilton had earned his salary several times over, and he did not like to see an absent man " sat upon," night after night, on accolmt of his previous political

Supply.

connection with 11r. Macalister. He had yet to learn that such a connection dis­qualified a man from doing his work, and he believed that Mr. Hamilton did it effectually. He took exception to the re­marks made about both being together, unless it was intendecl to imply that there was a complicity in fraud between them.

Mr. "\VALSH said he was not present· when the vote on the increase of salary to the Agent-General was taken, but he looked upon it as a direct vote of censure on the Government, and an indication that the committee was displeased with the fact that both gentlemen were in the same office. He (Mr. W alsh) did not think that Mr. l\Iacalister-though he quite recognized the political position he had held in the colony -was fit for the office of Agent-General at all ; although, if he had been in the House when the Yote came on, he would probably have voted the increase for the office, though considering its present occupant not fit for it. He was of opinion that there never had been a more disgraceful transaction, than when :Mr. Hamilton had been pitchforkecl into the position of a police magistrate of this colony oyer the heads of more deserving Civil servants, and had then been sent Home as a spy on Mr. Daintree and a herald for Mr. Mac­ahster to follow him. He had a piece of advice to offer to the Government. He had heard there was now an aspirant to ]}fr. l'lfacalister' s office. Let them send him Home to prepare, as 11r. l'lfacalistcr had clone. Let him go and pick holes in the management of the office, report them pri­vately, get eclat for what he had clone, and then go and occupy the place. He had heard a rumour that J\fr. J\facalister was coming back. "\Vas that because the GoY­ernment had promised him £1,500 and deserted him, or was it because he found himself no match for Mr. Hamilton? If any honourable member would move the omission of the £300 salary for that gen­tleman he would vote for it, not because he was a bad officer, but because he had no right to be there. The honourable member for North Brisbme asked why they did not bring a charge against him? They were not on the spot to do so, but they did see many letters in which it was said that the work of the office was not done properly. The many whispers that were current about the conduct of business in Mr. Daintree's time were in existence ancl loud enough now. The Government ought, therefore, to send some one Home at once to inspect the management of the office. He did not bring any charge against either officer, but he did not think the Government had got the proper men to do their work. He had heard genHemen say that if they hacl fiye shillings to spend they woulcl not entrust Mr. Macalist.er to

Supply. 669

do it; yet he was now sent Home to cope with the wily English merchants and Mr. Hamilton.

Mr. MACROSSAN said that the discussion had gone upon the supposition that Mr. Hamilton's salary was about to be increased; but, whether or not, Mr. Hamilton suffered unfortunately from two causes. The first cause was the person who appointed him to the police magistracy at Cooktown. Had any other person but Mr. l'lfacalister appointed him to that office very little would have been said about it, for it could not be denied that he had done his work very well. Mr. Hamilton also was very unfortunate in leaviNg the colony at a time when he was charged, and improperly charged, by an officer in the Audit department with leav­ing his books in such a state that they could not be audited. It was proved, how­oyer, afterwards that the books were left in a perfectly correct state. The officer who brought the charge ought certainly to have been punished foi· making it. That charge remaining unproved for so long a time did Mr. Hamilton a deal of mischief in the House. His (Mr. nfacrossan's) opinion was that Mr. Hamilton was a good business man, and was very likely doing the work of the Agent-General as well as his own. Some sort of promise, he believed, hacl been made to increase the salary of the Brisbane Immigration Agent. vV as this tl10 same gentleman who conducted a certain correS}Jonclence with Mr. Sheridan ? He (Mr. Macrossan) would like to ask the Colonial Secretary if any notice had been taken of the charge made by Mr. Gray against nfr. Sheridan-tho charge that the latter had made a statement which was a pure fabrication and unworthy of an officer holding the position he did? One of those gentlemen should haYe been discharged from the public service-either }fr. SJleri­dan, who was, according to Mr. Gray, guilty of falsifying a public document, or Mr. Gray, who made the charge. What steps had the Government taken? Surely it was not going to end in the gentleman who made the charge receiving an increase of salary, and the gentleman who was charged receiving a gratuity of £100. He (Mr. Macrossan) for one, before Mr. Gray's salary was increased, would want to know why an inquiry had not been held on the subject?

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said that with reference to the correspondence between Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Gray, he could only say that it took place before he came in to office. It happened when the late Colonial Secretary was absent from the colony, and some interval of time passed before it was brought under his notice, and then he (the Colonial Secretary) thought it best not to revive the matter. l\Ir. Gray, no doubt, acted Ycry indiscreetly in writing the letter, and had he been in office he should have

670 Supply. [.ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

called upon him to retract. He had not taken any action in the matter, but he was not awnre that J\fr. Gray had made any direct charge of falsifying a document. It was -very much to be regretted that the ex­p:!nditure of the London office could not be discussed without these charges of fraud and treachery being hurled night after night. He was -very sure the colony suf­fered a great deal from the way these officers were attacked, session after session, on the occasion of their salaries being voted. He was free to confess that Ur. Hamilton entered upon his duties as secretary to the Agent-General under peculiar circum­stances. It was no secret to him (JYir. Miles) that J\fr. Daintree, who was Agent­General at the time, was warned that 1\fr. Hamilton was sent Home as a spy and a detective in the office. He (Mr. Miles) be­lieved that JYir. Hamilton was sent Home to be nothing of the sort, but to src that the affairs of the office were condnetC'd in a busi­nesslike manner; and he furthc•r knew, from Mr. Hamilton himself, that he went there with the intention of co-operating with 1Ir. Daintree in every possible way, and of pro­tecting the colony from the exorbitant charges made upon it. \Yhcnever J\Ir. Hamilton pointed out that there was an excessive charge J\fr. Daintrcc became sus­picious, and, instead of talking over the matter with him, sent for the party con­cerned and consulted with him. Conse­quently J\fr. Hamilton was bound, from the position he held, to communicate with the Government o£ the colony. He was as mueh opposed to the dismissal of 1fr. ·wheeler as any member of the House, for he thought that he was fairly entitled to an inquiry before being dismissed. He had been told that J\fr. \Vheelcr was paid after his dismissal by both Mr. Daintree and Mr.· Taylor, of Messrs. Taylor, Bet hell, and Roberts, and was kept in the office as a spy to communicate with the honourable member for. Port Curtis, who was then at the head of the Government. He (::Yir. Miles) believed that JYir. Hamilton was a conscientious and trustworthy officer, who thoroughly understood his duty; and if there were the slightest chance of increas­ing his salary he should propose it ; but the feeling against him was so strong that, no matter how WPll he discharged his duty, there was no chance of carrying such increase.

Mr. PAL1IER said he had heard the hon­ourable member for the N ortlll'rn Downs make many strange_ statements in his timr, but a more cxtraordmary one he never made than that Mr. "'Wheeler was kept in the oflice as a Rl1Y to communicate with him (Mr. Palmer) tts head of the Government. He was not in office at the time, and J\fr. \Yheeler was dismissed by the Govern­ment which succeeded him. He might state that he had never heard this charge brought

before ; and he would pledge his word that Mr. \Vheeler never wrote him a line on any subject in his life. Mr. Wheeler certainly. sent despatches, while acting as Agent-General, but not another line had he received from him. He thought the honourable member had put his foot into it this time pretty considPrably. If Mr. Hamilton had been sent Home in a fair, open, straightforward manner, to report upon how things WE're being carried on in the office, he should never have said a word about it; but he was sent Home as secretary to the Agent-General, with pri­vate instructions to communicate with Mr. J\facalister; and it was notorious that the communication which he wrote to Mr. }i/[acalister was never intt>nded to see day­light. It was published by mistake. Mr. Hamilton acted the part of a spy, and was not sent Home to make any honest inquiry. He would say further, that if Mr. Hamilton, a~ secretary, had done his duty when he found such a state of things existing, all complaints would have been remedied by Mr. Daintrce ; but instead of mentioning them to that gentleman he wrote privately to his friend Mr. Macalister. That letter was addressed to Mr. Macalister, 11nd was not intended to be seen even by the other mem bt'rs of the Ministry. He had made no charges this evening against J\fr. Mac­alister,-the worst ever made against that gentleman was made by the present Pre­mier, who said he believed that Mr. J\iaca­lister and Mr. Hamilton ought not to be left in the same office. A greater insult could not b0 offerl'cl to any man. An open enemy might make chargPs, but when a man was supposed to be defending another who was absent made such a statement, a more serious insult could not be offered. The Pr0mier either believed that both gentlemen were dishonest er that one at all events was. But he apprared to have altered his opinion -as he hacl frequently done before, and would continue to do until the cncl of the chapter-once a week, if not once a day. The Premier now told them that he be­lieved. :Mr. Hamilton was an able servant of the Government. If the Premier had had any consistency, the moment he came into power he should have removed either one or the other. \Vith respect to the statement of the honourable member for Brisbane, that they got two securities for Mr. Macalister, that might be read two "·ays. 'l.'he Government either thought that two were required, er else the Colo­nial Secretary was not aware of what he was doing, for whrn he actually had a bond he comp~llccl him. to enter into an­other. That did not say much for tlw way in IYhich the depar~ment was c,1rriecl on by that honoumblc member as Colonial Secretary.

JYir. STEWART said he could assure the honourable member that the fact of their

Supply. [31 J'cLY.] Supply. 671

being two securities was not owing to either of the causes he had mentioned. The first bond was on its way out from Home ·when the second was made. \Yit.h reg:crd to the C<?rrcspondcncc referi·ecl to, the Colonial Secretary was a little in error as to the date of .i'lfr. Gray's lc'tter. It wa8 elated after he left o!Ece. and he did not know its e:ristence until it. was laid on the table of the House.

:Mr. BuzACOTT said that "I> hen the corres­pondence referred to was produced it was the duty or the Governmcnt.to make in­quiry. He could easily un~erstand the Colonial Secretary letting i.he afl'air slip by, as the letter hall been written before he entered into office; but \\·hen the ex-Colo­nial Secretary moved for the corre,pon­dence to be laid on the table he ought to have taken action, and called upon one or other of these officers for an ex]lhnation. He (Mr. Buzarott) did not thinf the time had yet gone by for an inquiry. The hon­ourable member for Brisbane said that last year he would only be too willing to recall Mr. Macalister or J\fr. Hamilton, if any substantial reasons for doing so could be pointed out ; and yet he now said that honourable members made complaints of all sorts but brought no distinct charges against them.

Mr. STEWART said he ne>cr said he should only be too willing to ri'call either of those gentlemen, but that the Govern­ment would be 11·illing to do so.

:Mr. BuzACOTT said that at that tim() tlte Colonial Secretary was cxi.remcly harassed and hardly knew what he was saying.

Mr. STEWART said. he knew pcrf,,ctly well what he was saying.

Mr. DuzJ.COTT said the late Colonial Secre­tary acknowledged the force~ of the argu­ment-that it was an un~atisfactory thing that JYfr. :i\:Iacalister and Mr. Hamilton should bu in the same ofiice.

Mr. STEW ART said he denieu ever having said anything of the so1·t.

Mr. BuzACOTT said he was quite 11·illing to accept the honourable gentleman's denial. He was merely stating what he bclie>"ed he had heard; and, while accepting the denial, he still adhered to his own belie£. How couldmemb2rs in this Hous·.', at a distanl'e of 16,000 miles from the Agent-Gent·ral' s office, bring distinct ch~rges against oilieers administering its affaii·s ? It was un­reasonable to be asked to make distinct charges ; but he could point to two or three circumstances in which he thought there was something requiring exmnina­tion in th1J conduc-t of ilw~e gentlemen. The first was tlw case of the ";;.;;,unon" ; th,, secoml was thJ extremely large staff of ofliccrs employed in tho Agent-Gt'llPl'al's office; and the thirJ., that the sending out of the materials for the X orthcrn raihvay was considerecl very unsatisfactory. He w~s sorry to hear the Co:o:1ial t:icci·dal'y

say he had no control over the I.,ondon oi!ice. As the head of the dL'ptlrtmcnt he ought to have some control over it, and ought to give an assurance to-night that, if the HouRc consented to pass this estimatr, he would cause <'i)riain inquiries to be made into th8 eondition of that oillcc. There wcr3 fourteen men employed in the Agent­General's ofllee, while the Agents-GL~nrral of New South \Ya~es and Victori~1 had only half-a-dozL'H eaeh. Such a staff se,~metl cli,pr:Jportionate to the work for them, and an undt'rtaking ought to b3 given by the Colonial tle~retary that an inquiry should be made, with a >i<'W to some reduction being pffpctcd. JI,, no tired in the Estiumtes an itl'm for travelling cxprnsPs, and he wished to know who recei '"eel it?

Mr. HALY said that, although he had no charge to bring against the Agent-General or his serre1 m·y, still he \\'Onld say that it was an unfortunate cireumstance that these two nwn were in the same office, and he should not be doing his duty to the public unlrss h<J prot··stcd against it. J\fr. Hamil­ton had b .'I'll a >ery strong political agent for :\fr. l\Iacalister at Ipswich, and, as a reward for his s·.'nices in that capacity, he was first malic a p0lice magistrate at Cook­town, and then sent Home as secretary to the Agent-General. He raised his ·voice ag:1inst such an arrangement, and. without bying one spee:ific charge ag:1inst either of tlwse g<'ntlemen he h2id thrrt he had a pcrf~ct right to do so. IV> was not here to vouch for their hom'sty. but to protect the expenditure of the public money, which these men might, if they chose, squ:mdcr. IIe protested ag>'inst mc~n cOJmel'tccl with politics being Hc>nt Houw to tmnsact the affairs of the colonv.

Tlw CoLOKIAL SECRETARY saicl the hon­ourable member for l~ockhampton had dra\\·n a co;np·uison betw·ecn the Quepns­land ofiice in Lonrlon and those of New South \YalPs and Victoria; but, as a mat­ter of fact, thGrc was no comp.1rioon at all betwc<~n them. :No emigrant ships wae dJspatdwcl to Vietoria, and for every ves­sel with emigrants thnt went to N cw South \Y ales ten came to Quccmlancl. Every emigrant ship dcsp 1tc:tecl caused a considerable amount of clc'rical ''"ork. It wns utterly impo;;sible that he (the Colonial Secretary) could 'it h .. 're nncl tell all that wa ~ going on in tlu Lonclon olliee. He bL'­livcc.i the businc•ss of that ofiice was con­ducted both economically ancl wdl. \Vith r,'g n·cl to the " Z:unora," that vessel was c,'rtainly clesp::ttchcd wii.h wovisions both short in qurrntity and bacl in qn:Llity; but the l!lo:nont that fact. carno to his kno1Yl<>dg.J lw suspended the despatching ofiicl'l', sent IIo:nc a rc~port of the co:nplaint, and or-le reel an inquiry to bJ maclc into it. He dirl not know what more he eoulcl lvlYc done, for if the ch:ug0 was brought against an otlkcr,

672 Suppilf. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

that officer ought to have an opportunity of justifying himsel£ if he could ; for it might turn out that he was right and that the surgeon-superintt'ndent of the vessel was wrong. If the colony could afford to have an Agent-General in London they ought to trust to him to look after tlie clerical work of his office. Of all public offices the most unpleasant was that of the Agent­General and his secretary. Ever since he had been in the House the Agent-General hacl been connected with either one party or the other; and whenever the Estimates came on, abuse, slander, and insults were hurled at his head. He believed Mr. Hamilton to be a thoroughly good officer, and from all that he had been able to dis­cover he believed that the Agent-General conducted the duties of his office honestly and well. More than that he was not pre­pared to say.

Mr: PAL MER said that before the Colo­nial Secretary talked about slander he ought to apologize to him for the slander he himself had made use of, that Jl,:fr. Wheeler was kept on as a spy to report to him, as head of the Government, and that after his dismissal his salary was paid by Mr. Daintree and Mr. Taylor. It was quite true that Mr. Daintree, fully believing that J\:fr. \Vhecler was an innocent man, that he hacl been treated harshly by the Government, and that he would be thrown on the world without any resources, ad­vanced hal£ his salary, and Mr. Taylor the other half, until the matter was inquired into; but that money was simply advancecl on loan and had since been repaid.

The CoLO:NIAL SI:cRErARY said he had only repeated what he had been tolcl, and when he used the term "head of the Gov­ernment" he ought to have said head of the Opposition. }:fr. Hamilton himself told him that the letter which he wrote to Mr. Macalister, as head of the department, was not a confidential letter, but was in­tended to be made public; that he showed the letter to Mr. Daintree before sending it, and that time after time he had tried to induce Mr. Daintree to work with him, but without success. Mr. Daintrec, no doubt, had been told that Mr. Hamilton was sent as a detective. He believed that the appointment of Mr. Hamilton was one of the best ever made by Mr. Macalister or his ·Government.

Mr. BuzAcoTT said he agreed with much that the Colonial Secretary had said. It was extremely awkward to have charges made against officers 16,000 miles away, and who were unable to answer them, ex­cept by a long correspondence. That only showed the necessity there was that, in selecting officers for these posts, men should be appointed ~>ho were beyond suspicion. It was very unfortunate that charges shoulcl be brought against their officers in England ~ession after session ; but it was the in-

evitable result of appointments being made for political objects. If they wished to have an end put to these charges, and enable the House to plaee confidence in its officers in England, particular care must be exercised in their selection. He had not said one word against either Mr. Macalister or JYfr. Hamilton, so far as the conduct of their offices was concerned; but having regard to the smpicious circumstances attending their appointment, he hacl ex­pressed his opinion as to the impropriety of the two ~en being togt'ther.

Mr. PET~GREW said that, according to the dictum of the honourable member for Rockhampton, no man was to be sent to London ~>ho was either a politician or had attended a political meeting ; but, as a matter of fact, there were very few men in this colony who had not attended political meetings. He knew JYir. Hamilton very well, and yet he had never been aware that that gentleman had taken a particu­larly lively interest in politics, notwith· standing the statement made by the honour­able member for Toowoomba, that he had been chairman of one of Mr. Macalister's political meetings.

Mr. GRoo:u: Chairman of Mr. Macal­ister' s committee.

Mr. PETTIGREW said he was at all the meetings of Mr. Macalister's committee and he never saw Mr. Hamilton in the chair. It was quite evident that the hon­ourable member for Bremer had not for­gotten the unfortunate affair which resulted in his losing his seat for Ipswich; neither had his friends forgotten it; and he thought it was a poor kind of spite they were dis­playing against an officer of the Govern­ment. As to the three charges made by the honourable member for Rockhampton, he did not attach much weight to them. The captain of the" Zamora" had been fined £1,000, which showed that at all events the Government here was alive to its duty. As to the staff in the office, he did not think it was a very large one. There were two lecturers and hundreds of agents scat­tered throughout the country, all of whom were no doubt in constant communication with the office; and he had hoard that every immigrant who came to this country crc.ated the necessity for :VTiting six or eig~t letters. If they went mto any office m Brisbane they would find that there was not half as much work clone as in that office. The next charge was very indistinct and indefinite-namely, about the railway ma­terial ; ancl it appeared that after all it was only hearsay. He was very glad that the Colonial Secretary had taken up one matter-namely, the private instructions given to Mr. Hamilton, ancl his being sent Home to act as a spy. He was quite sure that that gentleman was as honourable a man as any member of the Assembly, and would not think of acting in the manner

S'uppiy. (31 JULY.] 673

alleged; but if, after arriving in London, he found things were not going on properly, and wrote a letter to this Government­first showing it to Mr. Daintrcc, and a~king him to join in bringing about a reform-he did only what was his duty. He was very much amused at the spceeh of the honourable member for Too­woomba, "·ho apparently had taken out a license to slate J\1r. J\1acalistcr on every opportunity since that gentleman went Home; and yet who, if .Mr. Macalister came back on the vcry next day, would be the first to shake hands with him and say, "How are you, old fellow; didn't I stand np for you?" There was no doubt that J\Ir. Macalister would come back. and that the first gmtleman who would run after him would bJ the honourable mcm b2r for Toowoomba. vVith respect to the appoint­ment of Mr. Hamilton to Cooktown, if the House had known the gentleman whom it was first proposed to appoint there they would think that a great saving had been effected to the colony-if not of money at least of respectability. He believed, with the honourable member for Brisbane, that it was not i'.Ir. Macalister who sent Mr. Hamilton HonlP, but Mr. Hemmant. More than that, he believed that J\1r. Hamilton 1ms promisccl a much larger salary than he re cri vecl; but that, likJ many other things, it was passed over by the late Gov­('rnment for the sake of seeking popularity for the moment. I£ any incrcasrs were made the Colonial Secretary should begin with those who had the most work to do.

J'lir. vV ALSIT wished to ask the Colonial SPerctary if any ~ystem was adoiJted by the authorities here, or by those at Home, in despatching vessels? For instance, he understood there was a ship named the "City of Agra" now in Hervey's Bay, with immi­grants for 1\-faryborough, and also immi­grants for Bris banc and a Northern port.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said he be­lieved the ship alluded to was only bringing immigmnts to JYI~ryborough.

Mr. vVALSH sa1d that such was not the case; and he wished to know whose fault it was, that whilst a ship was despatched nominally for J\1aryborough she had on board passengers for Rockhampton and Brisbane?

The Pl~E)HER said he could answer the question. No emi.grants left England who were not aware of the destination of the ship in 11hich they sailed, and if they were told that they were going to Brisbane vid, Ji1aryborough, it was the duty of the Gov­ernment to forward them to the former plac0. Sometimes a delay occurred in des­patching a vessel for Brisbane, and ~mi­grants would rather go out of their way a little than wait for it. He felt that he ought to say n few words on another sub­jeet. ·without wishing to revive the old controversy about Mr. ·wheeler and l\J;r.

1877-2 V

Daintrce, and Mr. Macalistcr anclMr. Ham. ilton, he believed that there had been too much party feeling displayecl in the mat­ter. Some years ago he considered it 11·as his duty to take up the cudgels for JI.Ir. vVheeler, thinking the Govern­ment of the day had been too hasty in suspending him; but he was now con­fident that the action of Mr. Macalistcr was justified. If there were any doubt~, JYir. Macalister, on his visit to Englancl, completely proved that the action of his Government was correct, as it was evident Mr. \Yheeler had taken commissions when he should not have done so. vVith respect to Mr. Ha:ni!ton, all the information he had received led him to think that he had at first misjudged that gentleman, being guided at the time by the rumours that wc1·e floating about. He had nc.-er been connected in any way with him, so far as his department was concerned, but from what had come unclPr his notice he believed J\1r. Hamilton had proved himself to be a · thorough man of business. And as rcgardNl J\'i:r. :Th1acalister, if that gentleman was not conversant with commercial business he was a shrewd, hard-headed man, and was certainly not out of place as Agent-General. He was also certainly entitled to such a position from the long services he had rendered to the colony. There was one thing certain, that the freights the Government were now paying were very much less than they 1nicl some years ago, and that perhaps might be quoted in fayour of the pr'-'scnt Agent-General. He hoped that the hon­ourable member for Port Curtis wonlcl be a little more generous in dealing with an old political antagonist; t)w devil was not so black as he was painted--

JHr. P.HMER : How do you know? . The PnEmER said he thought the hon.

ourable member might measure his words a little more, and not impute all that was low to Mr. JYiaealister-such as saying that there was a ring, and that Mr. J\!Iacalis­ter formed one of a corrupt combination. Such language was not worthy of the hon­ourable gentleman, and he trusted he would in future select his words with greater discretion.

l\'Ir. J. Scorr said that the matter of the " City of Agra" was not to b3 set aside so easily as the Premier might wish it to be. There was an express agreement that vessels should go periodically to the Nor­thern ports, and if emigrants for Brisbane '~ere sent in those vessels it was clearly a contravention of the agreement. It was not fair, as it was giving an advantage to the South under a cloak of benefiting the Northern ports, and must either be clone with the knowledge of the authorities at Home or with the sanction of the Gov· crnment. He believed that according to the Act immigrant vessels shoulcl go to the North and to Brisbane in -equal pro-

SU:P:P'-31· CASSEMBLY.J

portions ; and i£ the Agent, General was not carrying out that arrangement he was acting in contravention of the law.

Mr. BuzAcoTr said he w1shed to add a word or two to what had fallen from the honourable member for Springsure. The last immigrant vessel that arrived at Rock­hampton had no less than sixty immigrants for Brisbane, and he understood that the Government had to pay the passage by steamer to Brisbane of those people. Surely that was not an economical way of doing things, and the officers at Home must be aware that emigrants desirous of going to Brisbane should not be sent to Rockhampton. He wished to ask again, who received the sum set down for travel­ling expenses-whether it was Mr. Mac­alister or Mr. Hamilton?

The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY believed that the travelling expenses were chiefly con­sumed by the despatching officer, who had to inspect the stores, see that the vessel was properly fitted up, and had also to travel to whatever port the vessel sailed from. \Vith reference to the passage­money of immigrants from the Northern ports being paid by the Government, he was not aware of anything of the kind since he had been in office. Mr. Hewitt, of Mackay, was anxious to take some immigrants up with him, and as he (the Colonial Secretary) thought it would be a good thing to get rid of them, he authorized the payment of half of their passage-money. As to the case mentioned by the honour­able member for Rockhampton, he knew nothing about it.

Mr. \V ALSH said there was an Act of Parliament, of which the honourable gen­tleman should know something, which pro­vided that one-half of the emigrant ves­sels should be despatched to Brisbane and the other half to the North. He happened to know that what he had stated in refer­ence to the "City of Agra" was correct, as he was interested in a person coming by her, and he found on inquiry that a large number of the immigrants by that ship were for Brisbane and for Roc]{hampton, although she was despatched for Mary­borough.

Mr. M cLEAN said he recollected a vessel in which there were a number of full pay­ing passengers who were told, when ship­ping in London, that Brisbane was only a short distance from Rockhampton, and that for a few shillings they could go down from there. He knew a person who came in that vessel, and who had the greatest difficulty in getting the money from the Government for his passage from Rockhampton to Brisbane; and he also knew that many passengers, whose tickets were indented to Brisbane, were compelled to pay their own passages from Rockhampton. .A_ good deal had been said by the honourable member for l;itanley about the number of letters that

had to be written in the case of each pas­senger ; but he happened to know that there were many ca,ses in which no letters at all were written, and he believed that the greater part of the work was done by agents in the country districts, and not in the London office as represented.

Mr. BEATTIE said he could not help thinking that the passengers of the ship alluded to by the honourable member for the Logan must have been very soft to accept tickets for Rockhampton when they wanted to go to Brisbane. .A_ great cry had been made about sending persons by a vessel going to Maryborough, whose des­tination was Brisbane; but he would point out that in the case of a vessel not filling up in the c::mtract time it was actually cheaper for the Agent-General to fill up such a vessel with emigrants for Bris­bane than to pay the demurrage which the owner of the vessel would demand. In respect to the charge of sending down immigrants from the North, he might mention a case which was no doubt known to the honourable memb2r for Kennedy, where a number of persons who landed at Townsville had been unable to get any employment, and it was thought advisable at last to send them clown by a steamer to Brisbane; so that, even where persons had not come out with the intention of going to Brisbane, it was sometimes desirable for their own sakes to forward them there, where there was more chances o£ their obtaining employment. He considered the Agent-General should be allowed to exer­cise some discretion in the case of a ship laid on for a Northern port not filling up, and send passengers for Brisbane by her, with the understanding that they would, on arrival, be forwarded to that place.

Mr. WALSH thought the honourable member misunderstood the matter alto­gether. There was an Act of Parliament in force regulating the despatch of vessels, and he maintained that the Agent-General was bound by that Act, and was not justi­fied in departing from it, even in the case o£ wishing to fill up a ship. If the Act was not desirable it should be repealed ; but so long as it remained on the Statute Book it should be respected. The honour­able member also said that it was all non­sense to say that emigrants did not know where they were going when they had their tickets endorsed ; but it was a well known fact that mie-half of the people who came to Queensland did not know the difference between Brisbane and Rockhampton ; and, therefore, it was the more necessary that the Agent-General should be compelled tQ act in accordance with the Act. In the case" of the" City of Agra," he knew that the same trick was played which was o£ such frequent occurrence years ago as to make it necessary to insert a special clause in the Act regulating the despatch of vessels.

[31 JULY,] Supply.

Mr. GROO::II said that the greatest ignor­ance prevailed at Home in regard to Queens­land, amongst people who came out as immigrants, and mentioned, as an instance, that when the honourable member for Bris­bane was Colonial Secretary he had brought under that gentleman's notice a case in which a man living at Toowoomba sent Home for some relatives. It so happened that the woman and child who were thus invited to come went, in her ignorance, to one of the agents of the New Zt>aland Gov­ernment, by whom she was told that there was no vessel laid on for Queensland, but that if she went to New Zealand it would only cost her 10s. to go from there to Queensland. The woman took his advice; and the result was that the young man who sent for her had to remit £10, or some such sum, before she could come to this colony. The unfortunate people at Home did not know the geography of Australia, and were liable to be imposed upon by agents, who receiv-ed so much per head for all the immigrants they supplied. He thought the Agent-General should exercise a supervision in all cases, and take care that persons were sent to the ports to which they wished to go.

Mr. PAL:liER said that some of the Eng­lish newspapers even knew very little as to the geography of Queensland; and he be­lieved that one-half of the emigrants did not know where they were coming to, and that it was no uncommon occurrence that emigrants were sent to the wrong ports by the agents.

Mr. JOHN ScoTT said he should like the Colonial Secretary to give some explanation as to how it came to pass that a ship bound for a Northern port was freighted with pas­sengers bound for a Southern port. It was not carrying out the terms of the Act.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said the only explanation that he could give was, that some time ago a considerable number of immigrants were sent to Townsville, but there being no employmentfor them in that district they hacl to be brought South. In Maryborough the same thing haclhappened, there being no work for immigrants on account of the large number of Polynesians that were employed there. \Vhen an emigrant vessel was laid on the berth at Home, she was advertised to sail on a certain clay, ancl the agent communicated with the agents throughout the inland dis­tricts ; they sent up a certain number, and, to make sure that the vessel would be fill eel up they sometimes sent more than she was capable of carrying. He was at Home when the " Queen of theN ations " was laid on for Brisbane, ancl he believed that there were some thirty over ancl above the number re­quired. Mr. Hamilton gave these the option of paying their passage to Glasgow and sail­ing by a vessel which was there laid on for Rockhampton. That was the only way to get

out of the difficulty, and he durst say that many of these matters arose in this way.

Mr. BuZA.COTT said that the explanation of the C_olonial Secretary, as to the reason why immigrants for Brisbane had been sent to Rockhampton, had been, on the whole, tolerably satisfactory; and if that information had been furnished sooner the debate would probably have been saved. He wished now to call the atten­tion of the Colonial Secretary to another matter. Formerly when tenders for the conveyance of emigrants were advertised for, the tenders were to be sent in to the Colonial Secretary's office and accepted in the colony; but he had bl'cn informed that since Mr. Macalister's appointment the tenders had been accepted in England. These tenders had resulted in a very large expenditure, and he thought it was umafe to entrust to any Agent-General in Eng­land the entire responsibility of accepting them. The existing contracts would expire in six months, and he should like to ascer­tain from the Colonial Secretary whether 1t was intended, when tenders were called for again, that they should be sent in here, or at the London office without being re­ferred to him before acceptance.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said he be­lieved that the last contracts were accepted by Mr. Macalister when in London to make inquiries into the Immigration office. No contracts had been entered into since that time. As he had already explained, the number of vessels which each con­tractor had agreed to send out had not been despatched within the time, and a letter had been received from the Agent­General, asking if the contractors might b:> allowed to send out the contract number. It would take some little time to do this.

Mr. BuzACOTT said he was informed that there were firms in Brisbane who were prepared to tender for the conveyance of immigrants, and he considered it would be desirable to afford them the opportunity of doing so, as it would be much easier to get at them if they failed to perform their contract. He would ask the Colonial Secretary if he had any idea as to when the present contract would expire?

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY replied that the eXIsting contract would expire in six months. He was not aware that there was a shipping firm in Brisbane willing to tender for the conveyance of immigrants. He could see no objection, however, to, calling for tenders her I'.

J\l[r. PALMER asked whether the Colonial Secretary would say definitely that he­would call for and accept tendtlrs in Tiris­banc?

Mr. STEWART said there >.as somethingt to be said on the other side. If there WlLl

a firm in Tirisbane capab~e of convPying immigrants he w·as not aware of it. Thpr,, could be only one, however. The rrop'-'J~·

676 Supplg. [A..ss]jM:BtY.j Supptg.

place to go to was London, where there were a number of firm~, and where there wou.lcl be some competition for the con­tract. He admitted that some guarantee was required that the tenders would be properly dealt with, because he knew that in 1fr. Wheeler's time se>eral firms made statements to him that they declined to send in tenders because Tay lor, Bethell, and Roberts were always successful. Some­how they were always the lowest tenderers. Tenders were then opened. in private, and he thought instructions should be given that they should be opened in the presence

• of the tcnderers. If there Ylere any tenders from Brisbane they could be opened simul­taneously, and the particulars could be wired Home.

Mr. PALMEll. said instructions were sent Home years ago, by him, that all tenders should be opened in the presence of the tcnderers. He was not aware whether those instructions had been varied. That was not the question, however. He had asked whether the Colonial Secretary would promise that the tenders should lJe accepted here? They could be called for, and opened in London ancl Brisbane simultaneously, ancl the namcs of the tendercrs and the amounts could be very easily wired to the Colonial Secretary and clceidcd upon by h1m.

'l'hc Cor.oxH.L SECRETARY said he had no hesitation in giving the promise that that course should be followed.

J\fr. SrEWART said he hoped that the Colonial Secretary would also go a little further, and insist upon tenders being opened in public, as he knew that con­fidence would be restored if this were done.

The CoLOXIAL SECll.ET.I.RY: Hear, hear. J\fr. PETTIGUEW said he hoped ihe same

practice would he followed in all depart­ments.

On the question being put, J\fr. P.wrrrGREW said he saw a small

item to 1Yhich the Minister for IY orks should have drawn attention in the inter­ests of his constituents. He would like to know why the warclsman at Ipswich got only £60, whilst the Maryborough, Too­woomba, and Rockhampton warclsmen re­ceived £80 each? On what principle was 'J'oowoomba fayoured as against Ipswich? He believed more immigrants 1Yerc sent to Ipswich in twehc months than to Too­woomba.

The CoLOXIAL SECUETARY said the Immi­gration Agent prepared the estimates. He knew nothing about the matter, ancl it was utterly absurd to expect him to know about every warclsman ancl matron. If an in­ercase had been recommended he should probably have made inquiries. He might ~tatc that the honourable member for 'l'oo­woomba had never made an application to ~tim for an incl'case of salary for any

officer. He presumed the Immigration Agent had put clown £60 because he con­sidcrecl it sufficient.

J\Ir. IVALSH wished to know why a dis­tinction had also been made as regards the superintendent of quarantine station at Hen·ey' s Bay ?

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said the amounts were cxaetly the same as put clmn1 in the Estimates las_t year; an cl no doubt there must be some good reason for this being clone.

J\fr. PETTIGREW hoped the Colonial Secre­tary woulcl agree to an increase being put on the Supplemcnt~1ry Estimates for the wardsman at Ips"·ich. It was a gross case of injustice that he should be only paid £60.

The MrxrsrEn. FOR WoRKS said this salary had been put clown several years af);o, and it was commensurate with the work. Doubtless, too, the Ipswich people were not such cormorants as the people of Rock­hampton and other towns. He noticed that every officer connected with the Rockhamp­ton · dish·icb got more than the other officers in.the colony.

JYir. BuzACOTT objected to such a wholr­sale charge being made against the l{ock­hampton people. The Minister for \Vorks shoulcl remember that the cost of living was far higher in Hockhmnpton than in Ipswich, aml that H would b<l easier to get a warclsman for Ipswich at £60 than for 1~ ockhampton at £tlU.

After some further discussion, The Cor.or>TAL SECRETARY s~ticl his was

a most diJficult position. He was bullied by some because the salaries ·were too high, ancl by others because they were too low.

J\l[r. PETTIGREW asked for information respecting the immigration barracks in Too­woomba.

The CoLoXIAL SECRETARY replied that the owner of the house required the build­ing, ancl the Government were now treat­ing for the purchase of a depot.

Question-That a sum not exceeding £10,130 be voted for the Immigration De­partment-put ancl passed.

The CoLOXLl.L SECHETAn.Y. proposed a vote of £2,6·10 on account of the steamer "I{ate."

]\fr. Gm~!ES asked ~~-hat expenses on account of the seiTice of the steamer were added to the item of salaries?- It seemed a large amount to be required for keeping up communication between Dunwich Island and the establishment in the Bay.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said that the steamer was rmployecl bctw·een Dunwich ancl l'eel Island, to keep up comnmnica­tion. She was also sometimes employed to tow vessrls and for pleasure trips; members of Par1iament, CiYil servants, and the public had the use of her occasionally. It was perfectly iwpossiblc that her scr-

Supply. [31 Ju'LY.] Supply. 677

vice could be dispPnsed with, and he might tell the honourable gentleman that another steamer would have to be employed in the Bay.

Question put and passed. ' The CoLONIAL SECRETARY proposed a vote

of £20,995 on account of J uclicial Benches. He said there was 'an increase of about £1,100 on the amount for last year. An additional magistrate hacl been appointed, to be stationed at Aramac, at a salary of £325. This the House had last session agreed should be done. The next increase was in consequence of the appointment of a police magistrate at Cairns, seven months' salary for that official having been put on the Supplementary Estimates of last year. There was a senior-constable who acted as clerk of petty sessions at Charleville, an additional clerk at £70 a-yem· at Ipswich and Gatton, as well as £25 for a senior­constable who acted as clerk of petty ses­sions at that place, and an additional clerk at Rockhampton. All these had been put under contingencies last year, and were now put clown on the Estimates. The recording clerk at Roma had formerly clone duty as clerk of petty sessions, but since the 1st January a clerk of petty sessions had been appointed, and the former officiul performed the duties of commissioner of Crown lands.

Mr. GROO::II said that the Colonial Secre­tary had mentioned thut he (Mr. Groom) had not called upon him for an increase to the salary of any official in his electorate, but he would now call his attention to the very low salary received by the clerk of petty sessions at Toowoomba. The work clone by that official was very considerable, and till lately he had been obliged to em­ploy a clerk to assist him; but on applying for an allowance for that purpose he had been refused it. At Ipswieh, the clerk of

· petty sessions got £350, with an extra clerk at £i0. The connection of the words Ipswich and Gatton was calculated to mis­lead, as a senior-constable did the work at the latter place. 'l'he clerk of petty Hessions at Toowoomba had done much work, and had received the same salary for ten years ; he thought he was enti­iled to an incrcuse of salary. He might alRo mention an imtance in the electorate of the honourable Chairman, who, being in the chair, could not introduce the matter. He might remind honourable members that the clerk of petty sessions at vV arwick had been reduced by £80 last year, and he thought the reduction was due chiefly to some circumstances in connection with the then occupant of the office. That young gentleman had since been removed to another sphere of duty, and now the gen­tleman who occupied the position thought that he should receive the salary which had ulways been voted for the clerk of petty sessions there. He (Mr. Groom) thought

the Colonial Secretary might put down £80 on the Sup]Jlcmentary Estimates for that office. He would again commend the clerk of petty sessions at Toowoomba to the Colonial Secretary's attention.

The CoLO:I\'IAL SEcRETARY said that he had found in his office an a}Jplication from the clerk of petty sessions at vVarwick for an increase of his salary by £80, whieh he asserted was the amount always received for that office. He (:Mr. Miles) thought, however, that the £80 refused by the House last year was a proposed increase, and that the salary had never been more than £200. 'l'he gentleman now occupying the position had been in the habit of acting as magis­trate also ; und his uttention had been drawn to the bet that the police magis­trate and clerk of petty sessions occupied the bench together. He had, therefor(•, requested the latter gentleman to atteml to the duties of his office. He had been formerly police magistrate at Gooncliwincli. and there received £300 or £350. He had applied to be shifted to vV arwick, either because he felt himself incompetent for his duties or becuuse he wunted a change ; and if he supposed he was to get the same salary he was very much mistaken. The salary of the clerk of petty sessions at Too­woomba seemed small in comparison· with that at Rockhumpton, and he would take him into consideration if he had the pleasure of framing the next Estimates.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that he would like to call the attention of the Colonial Secre­tary to the items under the head of allow­ance to }Jolice magistrates. These were put down in some cases as being in lieu of rent, and in others to recompense the officer for visiting other places. He called par­ticular attention to the allo"·ance of £100 to the police magistrate ·Of Brisbane for visiting Goodna. He supposed that he was ulso allowed a free pass, and it was like giving him £100 a-year for taking a holiday, for he supposed that when he went to Gooclna some one did his work in Bris banc. It was sheer extravagance, and the colony ought not to stand it. \Yhen he found an amount of qver £19,000 put clown for police magistrates and clerks of petty ses­sions, and they could only afford £15,000 to build bridges all over the colony, it seemed to him a very extraordinary thing. He would ask them to look at the item for a police magistrate at Condamine. How often dicl that official receive leaYe of ab­sence P The police magistrate of Roma had been two or three months waiting about for an appointment at Ipswich .. The whole thing wus absurd; and all these appoint­ments took place because there had been so many hangers-on of the Liberal party expecting to get appointments. He would like to know i£ the Colonial Secretary expected the committee to vote for all these allowances ? He should put them

678 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply,

straight to the committee, and not expect honourable members to vote money, as it were, by a side-wind. In order to test the feeling of the committee, he would move that the vote be reduced by £1,000.

Mr. Low said he would like to call the attention of the Colonial Secretary to two gentlemen in his district who were deserv­ing of additions of £50 to their respective salaries. One was the police magistrate at Surat, who acted as clerk of petty sessions, and was an old and worthy officer; the other was the police magistrate at St. George, who, though not quite so old a servant, was also a very efficient officer.

The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY said that he would be glad if the honourable member for Stanley would put his objection in a tangible shape.

Mr. IVORY said there was an item on the Estimates which ought to be struck off­the salary of the police magistrate at Ten­ningering. They knew that the Mount Perry mines had stopped working, and there was no population at that place now. Besides, there was a police magistrate at Gayndah, within thirty-five or forty miles, and another at Bundaberg, within about seventy miles. New benches had been established in various places, and the officer in question might be sent to one of them.

Mr. W ALSH hoped that the salary would be·allowed to remain. If they were going to make a railway to Mount Perry they would require a police magistrate there.

.Question-That the sum of £19,995 only be voted for this service-put.

The committee divided:­NoEs 23.

Messrs. Palmer, McLean, Walsh, Dickson, Douglas, Macrossan, Miles, Buzacott, Fraser, G. Thorn, Stewart, Hockings, J. Scott, Ivory, Low, Be~r, 1\~acDonald, Haly, Groom, Kidgell, Tyrel, 0 Sulhvan, and Beattie.

.!YES, 4. Messrs. Pettigrew, Foote, Fox, and Grimes.

Question, therefore, resolved in the nega­tive.

Mr. PErTIGREW said that after the deci­sion of the committee the only conclusion he could come to was that economy was all a pretence; that individuals were sin­gled out and hunted to death; and that when a principle was endeavoured to be estaqlished it was treated as being of no consideration.

Mr. IvoRY said the remarks of the hon­ourable member for Stanley were amusing, but erroneous. The committee had voted against increasing salaries, bnt that hon­om·able member had asked them to vote against what had been granted for years past.

Mr. GROOM said that, as all honourable members who had been in the House for

any length of time must know, £50 was very poor compensation for magistrates who had to travel long distances. Had the honour­able member for Stanley referred to the inequalities of remuneration which existed it would have been a different thing. For instance, there was the police magistrate of Brisbane, whose salary was £600 a-year, and who had another £100 a-year and a free pass for going to Goodna once a-week. If that allowance were reduced by one­half, and the surplus given to some other magistrate who had to travel great dis­tances on horseback, there would be some­thing like a principle introduced. But the honourable member's motion did not touch cases of that kind.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN said that if the motion of the honourable member for Stanley had been carried it would not have touched the most flagrant cases, but would un­doubtedly have affected the police magis­trate for Burke and Norman, who had often to travel 300 miles to attend his court at Cloncurry.

The original question was then put and passed.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY proposed that the sum of £23,395 be granted to· pay police salaries and contingencies. He stated that there was a reduction in the estimate of £575. The only item of in­crease was the addition of £25 to the salary o£ a clerk in the commissioner's office, who had been a long time in the service, and had been strongly recommended by the commissioner for the increase. The cause of the reduction on the estimate of last year was the omission of the item of £600 for expenses connected with the establish­ing and removing police stations in the Northern division.

Mr. PAL~ER said he did not know how, when the colony was increasing at its pre­sent rapid rate, the Colonial Secretary could possibly carry on with a lower esti­mate than that of last year. If the Bill which had been passed to-day became law the whole of this sum would be required to build prisons in which to confine China­men who refused to pay the £10 tax.

1Ir. MAcROSSAN wished to point out that a very large proportion of the expense of the police force was already incurred for the protection of Chinamen, and he thought the House had done very well in trying to make them pay for that protection.

Mr. W ALSH said that in the gold-mining districts a large police force was an abso­lute necessity, and he thought that, seeing the growing wants of the colony, the sum asked for was most inadequate.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said if hon­ourable members would look at the next item they would find an addition of ten sergeants, twenty senior-constables, and twenty constables-the additional cost being

Supply. [1 AuGusT.] Days of Sitting. 679

£6,525. He tl'U~ted that that addition would be sufficient to meet present require­ments.

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL SECRETARY proposed that

the sum of £82,663 be granted to pay salaries in connection with the executive branch of the police establishment.

Mr. GRn1ES said that in the matter of police protection the city of Brisbane was a little over-governed. There were more policemen in the town than there was any reason for, and some of them might very well be struck off. The generally orderly character of Brisbane did not demand such a large amount of police protection as it at present was blessed with.

Mr. W ALSH said he thought it would be an advantage if some of the policemen who appeared to be loitering about Brisbane were sent into the suburbs. In the neigh­bourhood in which he lived there was not sufficient police protection. There was a set of loafers prowling about the suburbs who really wanted looking after; and not long ago he had informed the inspector of one of those men being on his premises, and he afterwards found he had already committed a robbery on that day.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said his atten­tion had been called to this fact a few days ago, and it was his intention to communi­cate with the Commissioner of Police on the subject of increased police protection in the suburbs. He thought a few men might very well be spared from the city for that purpose.

Mr. HALY said that where he lived-not very far from Ips"·ich-there was no police protection whatever, and he thought a few men from Brisbane might be sent thither.

Mr. MACROSSAN called attention to the fact, that although the local police force in the Northern districts was only one-sixth of the entire force of the colony, yet the expense of maintaining them amounted to nearly one-half of the entire cost. He Was" willing to admit that the ex­pense of living there was a little higher, and the allowances a little greater, than in other parts of the colony; but that did not anything like account for the disproportion between the number of men employed and their cost.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said he was ·aware that the poliee force in the North were paid higher than those in other parts of the colony, and that within the last few days they had been granted the privilege of allowing three years to count :l'or four, although some slight reduction in salary had been made on that account.

Mr. MACROSSAN said that the policemen in the North cost £2 for £1 in the South. Counting tlu·ee years' service for four did not increase the expense-it only qualified them to take their pensions sooner. It

seemed strange that the Northern districts were charged £4,0,000 for 120 men, while -the rest of the colony, with 500 men, was only charged £60,000.

Question put and passed. On the motion of the CoLONIAL TREA- ·

SURER, the Chairman reported progress and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past ten o'clock.