Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER 1960

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Coal and Oil Shale, &c. Bill [28 SEPTEMBER] Questions 499

WEDNESDAY, 28 SEPTEMBER, 1960

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS

KILLINGS AT TOWNSVILLE ABATTOIR

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Forestry-

"For the year ended June 30, 1960, how many (a) cattle, (b) sheep and (c) pigs were slaughtered at the Townsville Abattoir?"

500 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani-Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads and Electricity), for Hon. 0. 0. MADSEN (Warwick), replied-

"For the year ended June 30, 1960, the numbers of stock slaughtered at the Townsville Abattoir were as follows:­(a) Cattle, 18,157-including bullocks, 8,106; cows, 5,388; calves, 4,663. (b) Sheep, 35,779. (c) Pigs, 5,673."

SUPPLY OF CATTLE TRUCKS, NORTH QUEENSLAND

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the Minister for Transport-

"(!) Has his attention been drawn to an article in 'The Townsville Daily Bulle­tin' of September 17 last wherein Mr. Woodhouse, a member of the Cattle Com­mittee of the Graziers' Association of Central and Northern Queensland, is reported to have said, inter alia, 'The position regarding cattle trucks was never so chaotic . . . trucks were available on the Darling Downs overnight, but in the North it took six weeks to get trucks'?"

"(2) If he has read the article, and there is any substance in Mr. Woodhouse's state­ment, will he take steps to ensure that this gross discrimination against North Queens­land, which has been a regrettable feature of Railway administration for very many years, is brought to an end? If not, why not?"

Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied-

"(! and 2) I have not seen the article referred to by the Honourable Member but I am assured no discrimination is exercised against North Queensland in regard to the supply of cattle trucks. The present posi­tion in fact is that North Queensland has in use more than its normal allotment of cattle trucks. The incidence of the drought has resulted in cattle being railed from the far north-west and far central-west over longer distances than normally and this has affected the turn-round of the trucks. As the Honourable Member will know cattle from North Queensland invariably are railed from large holdings in large numbers over long distances. Holdings on the Darling Downs are very much smaller and the numbers of cattle trucked therefrom are fewer. It is thus possible, because of the relatively short hauls involved to frequently obtain short runs from cattle trucks to cater for some of these orders in between longer runs."

TREATMENT OF PRISONER MALTBY

Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) asked the Minister for Justice-

"(1) Was a man named Maltby sentenced in the Northern Supreme Court by Mr. Justice Jeffriess to 10 years' detention?"

"(2) Did Mr. Justice Jeffriess, when imposing the sentence, specify that the full 10 years were to be served and actu­ally mention the age of Maltby when he would be released after serving such 1 0 years?"

"(3) Did he, in reply to a question directed to him by me, say, inter alia, that he had not lodged an appeal against the inadequacy of the sentence because he was of the opinion that the trial judge was in the best position to determine the adequacy of the sentence?"

"(4) Will Maltby be released prior to the end of the specific 10 years' term imposed by the trial judge and, if so, when and why?"

"(5) Is Maltby (a) segregated from other prisoners and (b) provided with facilities to study for the Senior examination in addition to being fed and housed at the expense of the State?"

"(6) If he passes such examination, can he qualify for a scholarship or fellowship at the University?"

"(7) If the answers to questions (5) and (6) are in the affirmative, has any special treatment been given or will be given to the relatives of Maltby's little victim, or to any other youth in the State who has not infringed its laws? If not, why not?"

"(8) If the answer to question (7) is in the negative, what other conclusion can the people draw than that the policy of this Government is one of favoured treat­ment for the criminal as against the law­abiding citizen?"

Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong) replied-"(1) Maltby, a boy aged 16 years and a

child in law, was sentenced in the Nor­thern Supreme Court by Mr. Justice Jef­friess to ten years' detention."

"(2) The remarks of Mr. Justice Jeffriess when imposing the sentence showed that he contemplated the full ten years being served by Maltby."

"(3) This part of the question is inad­missible as this information is set forth in an accessible document."

"(4) The question of whether as the result of good behaviour Maltby might be released some time prior to the end of the specific ten year term is one which cannot be determined at this stage. It is obvi­ously one which will call for final deter­mination at some time in the future."

"(5) (a) No. (b) Maltby is being allowed to study for the Senior Examina­tion. The Trial Judge recommended that Maltby be allowed to pursue his studies."

"(6) This question has not been deter­mined."

"(7 and 8) See answers to Questions (5 and 6)."

Questions (28 SEPTEMBER] Questions 501

HEADQUARTERS, MAIN ROADS DEPARTMENT

Mr. MANN (Brisbane) asked the Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads and Electricity-

"(!) What are the resumption costs of twelve properties at Spring Hill for a site for the new headquarters of the Main Roads Department?"

"(2) What is the estimated cost of the projected new building?"

"(3) What is the purchase cost of a building on the corner of Edward and Mary Streets, Brisbane?"

"(4) What is the cost of renovations or reconstruction of that building?"

"(5) By whom is this building now being used and how many Main Roads personnel have been transferred there?"

"(6) What was the number of staff of the Main Roads Department at June, 1957, and at even date?"

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani) replied-"(1) The net cost to date under all head­

ings of resuming dwellings situated on 13 properties and of acquiring one vacant property was £88,175. Certain amounts will be derived from the sale of the remain­ing dwellings."

"(2) As the plans for the building have not yet been completed an estimate is not available."

"(3) £56,000." "(4) Payments to date have been £1,330.

It is estimated that a further £9,000 will require to be expended."

"(5) The work on the building has not been completed. No officers have been transferred there yet."

"(6) June 30th, 1957, 913; September 27th, 1960, 979."

ARREST OF MR. ALBERT PRIDEAUX

Mr. MANN (Brisbane) asked the Minister for Labour and Industry-

"(1) Has his attention been drawn to a report of police court proceedings in The Courier-Mail' of Saturday, September 24, 1960, regarding the arrest of Mr. Albert Prideaux, a city accountant?"

"(2) If so, is it the intention of his Department or the Police Department to compensate Mr. Prideaux for wrongful arrest and also for his legal expenses?"

"(3) In view of the Magistrate's decision in favour of Mr. Prideaux, is it the inten­tion of the Minister or the Police Com­missioner to discipline this arrogant police officer?"

Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha) replied-

"(1 to 3) I would inform the Honourable Member that, prior to notice of this question, Messrs. Dewar and Knox, Ms.L.A., had

directed my attention to this matter. Since I have had Ministerial administration of the Police Force I have most assiduously investigated every complaint or adverse report I have received in relation to allega­tions of incorrect behaviour by any Police Officer. Whilst I repeat that I believe we have an excellent Police Force in Queens­land and that we have every reason to be proud of it, it is recognised by the Police Commissioner, Senior Officers, and me as Minister, that any complaint must be inves­tigated to ensure that not one member of the Force has any continuing opportunity to weaken public confidence. I will make no statement regarding the specific case mentioned in this question, other than to repeat that the matter had previously been referred to me, and following my invari­able practice, it will have thorough and full investigation."

STATION MISTRESs's RESIDENCE, BANYO

Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) asked the Minis­ter for Transport-

"In view of the neglected condition of the Station Mistress's residence at Banyo, what are the Department's intentions in regard to this structure and the grounds on which it stands?"

Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied-

"Consideration is being given to the utilisation of portion of the land now occupied by the house of the Station Mistress for other governmental purposes. If this be arranged, it will be necessary to shift the house to another location on the land and, when this is being done, any necessary attention to the condition of the house will be given."

REFUSAL TO PAY SOCIAL SERVICES BENEFITS TO MRS. ROY MURPHY

Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) asked the Treasurer and Minister for Housing-

"(1) Is he aware that the Roy Murphy, referred to in my question on September 21 last, of whom and of whose circum­stances he claimed to have no knowledge, has since died?"

"(2) Does he intend to correct the injus­tice and callous treatment meted out to Roy Murphy's unfortunate widow by the Social Service Department, acting on the false and erroneous information given by the Department of Harbours and Marine?"

Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minister for Justice), for Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chats­worth), replied-

"(1 and 2) In a question asked concerning this matter on September 21, the Honour­able Member asserted that the Department of Harbours and Marine had advised the Social Services Department that the late Mr. Murphy was on strike. Apparently, this assertion is the basis of the present

502 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

question. In the reply to the previous question and a question asked by the Honourable Member for Kedron on the same day, it was clearly pointed out that the Department did not claim that painters and dockers previously employed at South Brisbane and Cairncross were on strike, nor was such advice tendered to the Department of Social Services. What the Department did claim and what was con­veyed to the Department of Social Services was that the Department had called and was calling for employees on a weekly hiring basis in terms of the A ward and that no labour was offering on that basis. It is to be regretted that the Honourable Member chooses such intemperate language to ask a question based on false premises when the correct premises have been con­veyed to him already in an answer to a previous question and should be well known to him."

HOSPITAL INSURANCE AND FREE HosPITALISATION

Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) asked the Minister for Health and Home Affairs-

"ln view of his reported statement in 'The Sunday Mail' of September 25 that he favoured compulsory Hospital Insur­ance, will he give complete assurance to the people of Queensland that his Govern­ment does not intend to introduce this scheme thereby damaging even further the Free Hospitalisation that was so highly regarded under successive Labour Adminis­tration and Governments?"

Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Y eronga) replied-"! have on numerous occasions stated,

and I now repeat, that the policy of the Government is to provide free Hospital services for public patients as is now being done. I would also state that I propose to obtain the maximum possible contribu­tion from the Commonwealth Govern­ment towards the maintenance of State Hospitals, and would support any proposal designed to serve that purpose."

MANUAL CONTROL OF TRAFFIC

Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) asked the Minister for Labour and Industry-

"In view of the smoother flow of traffic that resulted from manual control in the North Quay area on Monday morning, September 26, will he give consideration to the return of police control of traffic, particularly during peak hours at bottle­neck areas?"

Hon. K. J. MORRIS (Mt. Coot-tha) replied-

"It is as a result of a discussion between, and decision by, the Traffic Engineer and myself that the return to Police control on Monday last was implemented. It is of interest to note that because of Police

control certain characteristics have emerged. For instance, Police officers have been able to divert cars off the tramline to hold for later movement. This the lights cannot do. It is also interesting to note that because of safety requirements, it has been ruled that this bridge should never carry more than one tram per span. Under traffic lights, I understand it did not, because of cars being interposed. Unfortunately, on Monday last there were 14 instances, and on Tuesday 17 instances where, because of the different type of operation, more than one tram was on one bridge span at a time. This matter is being constantly under review, and the Honourable Member may be assured that we will in the future, as we have in the past, take all steps to study safety and convenience of the public."

STAFF HOUSES, STATE GOVERNMENT INSURANCE OFFICE, CAIRNS

Mr. DA VIES (Maryborough), for Mr. WALLACE (Cairns), asked the Treasurer and Minister for Housing-

"In view of the fact that the State Government Insurance Office recently pur­chased two homes in Cairns, presumably for rental to members of the staff, why has the home situated at Buchan Street remained unoccupied when at least one married member of the staff is willing and anxious to occupy it in view of having received notice to quit the premises he now occupies?"

Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minis­ter for Justice), for Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth), replied-

"The home referred to is being held to accommodate a senior officer who will be transferred to Cairns at an early date."

FisH BoARD PAYMENTs TO MR. RoN HoDEL, CAIRNS

Mr. DA VIES (Maryborough), for Mr. WALLACE (Cairns), asked the Treasurer and Minister for Housing-

"Can he advise when the result of the investigation on the claim of Mr. Ron Hodel. 19 Digger Street, Cairns, (L.F.B. 19), that the Fish Board has failed to fully recompense him for fish delivered to the Board's premises at Cairns will be available?"

Hon. A. W. MUNRO (Toowong-Minister for Justice), for Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chats­worth), replied-

"The investigation has been completed. The investigation disclosed that portion of the fish consigned by Mr. Hodel was con­demned by the Health Inspector, and a cheque in settlement of the balance owing will be forwarded this week."

Questions [28 SEPTEMBER] Questions 503

HOUSES FOR ABORIGINALS, WEIPA

Mr. DA VIES (Maryborough), for Mr. WALLACE (Cairns), asked the Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads and Elec­tricity-

"How can he justify his statement that the building of homes for aboriginals at Weipa is not a matter included in the agreement between the Government and Comalco nor is it a matter within his administration but between the Company and the Church Authorities, when in fact no agreement exists between those orga­nisations and also in view of the fact that when introducing the matter into this Chamber he declared that the agreement covered among other projects the building of a model village for the aboriginal population at Weipa?"

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani) replied-" In introducing The Commonwealth

Aluminium Corporation Pty. Limited Agreement Bill in this Chamber I did not declare that the agreement covered amongst other projects the building of a model village for the aboriginal population of Weipa. On the contrary, I refer the Honourable Member to page 1413 of 'Hansard' where, in speaking to motion introducing the Bill, I stated categorically that there were no provisions in the agree­ment relative to Weipa Mission. I then went on to inform the House as to the then position as agreed to between the Company and the Church Authorities."

TRANSFER OF EMPLOYEES FROM DEPARTMENT OF IRRIGATION AND WATER SUPPLY

Mr. BAXTER (Hawthorne) asked the Premier-

"(1) Is it a fact that the Government has decided to instruct the Treasurer to inves­tigate the financial position in relation to the staff of the Irrigation and Water Sup­ply Commission?"

"(2) Does such a decision indicate that it is the Government's intention to trans­fer staff to other Government Departments or to dismiss further staff from the Irriga­tion and Water Supply Commission in addition to the number disclosed by the Minister for Public Lands in his replies to my previous questions on the dismissal of employees during the financial year?"

Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough) replied-

"The Honourable Member has been long enough in this House to know that matters concerning Government policy are not disclosed in answers to questions."

TORRES STRAIT IsLANDERS

Mr. ADAIR (Cook) asked the Minister for Health and Home Affairs-

"As it would appear that the Torres Strait Islander does not enjoy the same

rights and privileges as the aborigine under the Torres Strait Islanders' Acts, 1939 to 1946, will he give consideration to the revision of the Torres Strait Islanders Act with a view to the granting of exemption to Islanders who have the necessary qualifi­cations?"

Hon. H. W. NOBLE (Y eronga) replied-"The Torres Strait Islanders' Act of

1939 was enacted at the request of the Islanders to have them removed from the provisions of the Aboriginals Preservation and Protection Acts, and to give them a separate identity and a system of home rule on their islands. The Provisions of this Act as administered are to the satis­faction of the Torres Strait Islanders. During one of my recent visits to Thursday Island, the question of provision of exemption in the Act for Islanders was discussed with Tanu Nona, who is the Senior Chief Councillor of Torres Strait. He emphatically stated that he was opposed to exemption and required Departmental assistance in the administration of his affairs. That attitude is general throughout the Torres Strait islands. There is no restriction on any Islander leaving his home island to proceed south as is evidenced by the large number of Islanders now scattered throughout Queensland. These people work without any Departmental supervision or direction and their mode of living is not controlled or interfered with. They are therefore in no different position to the exempted Aboriginal. An amendment of the Act as suggested is therefore not warranted."

USE OF !NALA STATE SCHOOL FOR INTERVIEWING CONSTITUENTS

Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) asked the Minister for Education and Migration-

"In view of his offer to allow the hon. member for Townsville North the use of the headmaster's residence at Central State School for the purpose of interview­ing his constituents should that house become vacant, on what grounds did his Department refuse a request for me to interview my constituents at Inala State School?"

Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied-"The circumstances are entirely different.

In the case of the Honourable Member for Townsville North, he may have the choice of Ward 15, the Morgue, or the school residence, should any one of them become vacant and not be required for the time being by any Government Department. The schools in the Inala area are not likely to become vacant at any time in the future, and it is not intended that they should be made available for use by the Honourable Member, out of school hours, for the purpose of interviewing constituents."

504 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Mackay Gas Company Limited Bill

MACKAY ABATTOIR BoARD

Mr. GRAHAM (Mackay) asked the Minis­ter for Agriculture and Forestry-

"(1) What expenses have been incurred by the Mackay Abattoir Board since its formation?"

"(2) Can he advise as to the future activities of this Board?"

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani-Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads and Elec­tricity), for Hon. 0. 0. MADSEN (Warwick), replied-

"(!) Total indebtedness to December 31, 1959, is £35,500. Recent figures of expen­diture are not available at short notice, but it is estimated that up to June 9, 1960, expenditure was approximately £20,500, including the purchase of land, installation of electricity and water, and the building of an access road."

"(2) Negotiations with a firm to construct and operate an abattoir to slaughter for the district area have not resulted in final agreement, and it is understood the Board is now considering the erection of an abattoir to deal primarily with the requirements of the consumers of Mackay."

PENSIONERS CONCESSION RAIL FARE PERMITS

Mr. DONALD (Ipswich East) asked the Minister for Transport-

"Will he give favourable consideration to issuing adult tickets to pensioners travel­ling on the railway under the Pensioners Concession Rail Fare Permit, instead of the child's ticket being issued to them at present?"

Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer) replied-

" As these tickets are issued at half-fare, the issue of a child's ticket avoids the accounting work which otherwise would be involved in properly accounting for adult tickets issued at the concession fare. However, to overcome any possible feeling of slight which a pensioner may have in receiving such a ticket, instructions have been issued to all Ticket Offices that when such tickets are sold they are to be endorsed Pensioner."

CLOSURE OF INDUSTRIAL HIGH SCHOOL

Mr. DA VIES (Maryborough), for Mr. LLOYD (Kedron), asked the Minister for Education and Migration-

"Have any plans been made to replace the Industrial High School with a high school in the inner city area or at South Brisbane which will provide similar educa­tional facilities to the residents in these areas or will the many students requir­ing this form of education be forced to travel to the outer suburbs of Brisbane?"

Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied-"A new high school, with academic,

commercial, domestic science, industrial and modified courses, is opening in the present Kelvin Grove Infants' School at the beginning of the 1961 school year."

RENAMING OF STAFFORD HIGH SCHOOL

Mr. DA VIES (Maryborough), for Mr. LLOYD (Kedron), asked the Minister for Education and Migration-

"In view of the possible confusion that may occur by the naming of the proposed Stafford High School in close proximity to the Stafford and Stafford Heights State Schools and as construc­tion has commenced in the Everton Park area, will he consider renaming this High School the Everton Park High School?"

Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis) replied-"! shall give the matter consideration.

I am prepared to discuss the matter with the Honourable Member."

PAPERS

The following paper was laid on the table. and ordered to be printed:-

Report of the Queensland Institute of Medical Research for the year 1959-1960.

The following papers were laid on the table:-

Orders in Council under the Labour and Industry Acts, 1946 to 1960.

Orders in Council under the Traffic Acts, 1949 to 1959.

Regulations under the Abattoirs Acts, 1930 to 1958.

Orders in Council under the River Improve­ment Trust Acts, 1940 to 1959.

Orders in Council under the Irrigation Acts, 1922 to 1959.

Regulation under the Irrigation Acts, 1922 to 1959.

MACKA Y GAS COMPANY LIMITED BILL

INITIATION

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani-Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads and Electricity) (11.34 a.m.): I move-

"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to enable the Mackay Gas Company Limited to supply with gas the city of Mackay and the shires of Pioneer, Mirani and Sarina, and for other purposes; and that so much of the Standing Orders relating to private Bills be suspended so as to enable the said Bill to be introduced and passed through all its stages as if it were a public Bill."

The Mackay Gas Company Ltd. is the only gas company now operating in Queensland that has not the authority and protection of

Mackay Gas Company Limited Bill [28 SEPTEMBER] Kyle Enterprises Pty. Ltd. Bill 505

an Act of Parliament. Up to the present the company has relied on simple agreements with the Mackay City Council and the Pioneer Shire Council.

In a letter dated 9 February, 1959, to the Premier, the company asked that considera­tion be given to the introduction of an enabling Act to apply to its activities.

The Government Gas Engineer reports that this company is one of the most efficient and progressive gas companies in Queensland. It is held in high esteem by its customers, who receive an excellent supply of gas at prices below those that the company would be entitled to charge under the provisions of the Gas Acts.

The Bill is on the same lines as the most recent legislation of this nature, that is, the enabling Act for the Colonial Gas Associa­tion for its Sandgate works.

As I indicated earlier, the sole purpose of the Bill is to give the Mackay Gas Coy. Ltd.-a company that is now giving to the public of Mackay an efficient service-authority and protection identical with that extended to other existing gas companies.

The provisions of the Bill may be stated briefly as follows:-

(a) Clauses 3 and 4 ratify and protect the actions of the company since 1884 in acquiring land, erecting thereon works for the manufacture of gas, etc., and the selling and supplying of gas to the inhabitants, and for that purpose, with the consent of the local authority con­cerned, breaking up the soil, pavements, roads, etc., and the laying of pipes.

(b) The various other clauses of the Bill are similar to the provisions of other enabling Acts. They give the company power to l?anufacture gas and residuals, and authonse the company to do all those things complementary thereto within the specified area of supply, which comprises the city of Mackay and the shires of Pioneer, Mirani and Sarina.

(c) Provision is made in Clause 14 to ensure that the gas supplied shall comply with the standards required by the Gas Acts, 1916 to 1952, and the company is in all ways bound by the provisions of those Acts.

!\;fr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­Leader of the Opposition) (11.37 a.m.): It must not be thought because I called "Not formal" that the Opposition are opposed to the BilL It is merely a custom to provide hon. members with an opportunity to hear from the Minister the reasons for the intro­duction of legislation.

I should say that the Minister has amply demonstrated the need for the Bill. I thank him for the courtesy extended to me privately in this matter. Apparently this enabling Bill merely clothes the Mackay

authority with powers reposed in similar gas undertakings throughout the State, a matter that was the subject of previous legislation. I accept the Minister's assur­ance that the company concerned is efficiently operated; I was very pleased to hear that the charges levied by it are less than those permitted under the Gas Act. In the circumstances it would appear that the company's wishes should be acceded to.

The authority that the Minister proposes to vest in the company does not go beyond the limit of what a gas company should exercise to administer its undertaking efficiently. Therefore, I assure the Minister that the Opposition will be happy to facilitate the passage of the Bill. We hope it will have the desired results, both for the com­pany and its consumers.

Motion (Mr. Evans) agreed to.

FIRST READING

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Evans, read a first time.

KYLE ENTERPRISES PTY. LTD. BILL

INITIATION

Hon. E. EV ANS (Mirani-Minister for Development, Mines, Main Roads, and Electricity) (11.3 5 a.m.): I move-

"That leave be given to introduce a Bill to enable Kyle Enterprises Pty. Ltd. to supply with gas a specified area of the city of Gold Coast, and for other pur­poses; and that so much of the Standing Orders relating to private Bills be suspended so as to enable the said Bill to be introduced and passed through all its stages as if it were a public Bill."

This company applied in October, 1959, for an enabling Act to manufacture and/ or supply gas for domestic and industrial pur­poses in conformity with the provisions of the Gas Acts, 1916 to 1952, over a specified area of supply. The company was incorpora­ted under the provisions of the Companies Acts, 1931 to 1955, on 13 October, 1959. The area of supply requested includes that part of the Gold Coast from Rat Island to Point Danger, with its western boundary about 10 miles from the coast. There is no existing gas company with a legislative franchise in that area.

The provisions of the Bill are on the same lines as the most recent legislation of this nature-the enabling Act for the Colonial Gas Association's gas works at Sandgate. It is expected that this legislation will afford the residents of the defined area of supply an opportunity of obtaining a gas supply.

As indicated earlier, there is no existing gas company with a franchise in the proposed area of supply-namely, the Gold Coast­nor is there any reticulated gas supply in that area.

506 Kyle Enterprises Pty. Ltd. Bill [ASSEMBLY] Treasury Funds, &c., Bill

The only application received for an enabling Act is from the company named, and my Government consider that the com­pany should be given the opportunity, with the usual authority and protection, but subject (as all existing gas companies are) to the Gas Acts, 1916 to 1952.

The rights to be conferred on the company under the Bill are those enjoyed by existing gas companies under their various enabling Acts, and as are proposed under the Mackay Gas Company Limited Act. They give the company power to manufacture gas and residuals and authorise the company to do all those things complementary thereto within the specified area of supply.

Provision is made in Clause II to ensure that the gas supplied shall comply with the standards required by the Gas Acts, 1916 to 1952, and the company will in all ways be bound by the provisions of those Acts.

Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West-Leader of the Opposition) (11.43 a.m.): The remarks that I made a few moments ago have direct applicability to this measure also. The only supplementary remarks I should like to make on this occasion are that the circumstances are slightly different in as much as in this Bill the authority is given for a new enter­prise to provide a service not already exist­ing in the area. For that reason it is rather different from the previous Bill.

It encourages me to know that the people of the South Coast are to be given an opportunity to obtain an alternative source of power and illumination. I felt some years ago that the gas companies were rather losing the fight due to the tremendous development of electrical undertakings throughout Queens­land. The development of the reticulation of electricity in various parts of the State has been tremendous. Ingenuity has been used to great advantage in the production of elec­trical equipment which is tremendously important, not only in the domestic life of the housewife, making it easier and happier, but also in serving industry generally.

There was a feeling abroad, I think, that gas was not able to compete with electricity. It is very gratifying to me to know that, in recent years particularly, the gas companies have engaged in worth-while research, have developed appliances and have generally demonstrated increased efficiency, enabling them to compete with electricity. I am pleased to see that the companies concerned are taking advantage of these improvements. The great advantage, of course, is that the people have a freedom of choice. Many people prefer to cook by gas rather than elec­tricity, and, if they are prepared to purchase the necessary facilities, every encouragement should be given to them. I assume that the company undertook an economic and population survey of the South Coast before deciding to embark on this undertaking. I express the hope that the survey will prove to have been an accurate one and that the

provlSlon of this facility on the South Coast will give the residents of the area the bene­fits enjoyed by communities in the large pro­vincial cities of the State and the great metropolitan areas of the Commonwealth.

I am happy indeed to know that reticula­tion of gas in this important part of the State will be made possible by the Bill, and accordingly Opposition members give it their full measure of support.

Motion (Mr. Evans) agreed to.

FIRST READING

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Evans, read a first time.

TREASURY FUNDS INVESTMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Taylor, Clayfield, in the chair.)

Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­Treasurer and Minister for Housing (11.18 a.m.): I move-

"That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­duced to amend the Treasury Funds Invest­ment Act of 1958, in certain particulars."

The Bill is rendered necessary by recent changes of practice in the Australian money market.

The principal Act was passed in 1958 and covered two main purposes. It repealed the Post-war Reconstruction and Development Act, and re-enacted the power of the Treasurer to invest surplus cash balances.

The Treasurer was given wide powers of investment, but with the safeguard that the prior approval of the Governor in Council must be obtained. Last year the short-term money market was inaugurated in Australia under the sponsorship of the Reserve Bank, and that brought about a complete change in the opportunity for investment of the float­ing cash balances of the State.

As a matter of history, I remind the Com­mittee that for many years the Government received a trifling rate of interest on part only of their cash balances with their bankers, all the surplus money producing nothing. Within the last 12 months our bankers amended that arrangement, in terms of which we now receive 1 per cent. on the whole of the balances with the banks. That was a di5-tinct improvement, but it was still materially short of what I will show is possible on the short-term money market.

When hon. members realise that the aver­age monthly turnover of the Government with their bankers is of the order of £16,000,000 and that the receipt of moneys and outgoings are not even from day to day, it will be obvious to them that our balances can fluctuate at times from as low as a few hundred thousand pounds to as high as

Treasury Funds Investment [28 SEPTEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 507

£7,000,000 and £8,000,000. The problem that confronted us was how to use this day­to-day varying cash balance to the best advantage. There appears to be not the slightest doubt that to use the short-term money market as organised and authorised by the Reserve Bank is the aptest way to do it. The whole basis of the short-term money market is the daily depositing of surplus funds, and then the calling back of funds from the amounts deposited as required. To operate on a daily basis, it is impracticable to secure the prior approval of the Governor in Council because, as the Committee knows, the Governor in Council meets on only one day a week. It is possible, by the use of special flying minutes, to get approval for desperately urgent matters, but we can hardly invoke that method every day of the week. From the figures I intend to produce to the Committee it will be clear that every day we either deposit something in the short­term money market or withdraw something from it, according to the state of our day-to­day balance. On top of that, the dealings call for the promptest execution.

There are now eight or nine authorised dealers licensed by the Reserve Bank to operate on it and in practice, if we have money to deposit we shall do it over the telephone. According to the demand for funds on the particular dealer he will offer you a high rate if he is short of funds, or a low rate if he has plenty of funds. The result is that each time of the day when we determine that we have, say, £250,000 that can be deposited for 24 hours, it is merely a matter of ringing each of them and finding out which will offer the best rate and the deal is clinched there and then. The present legal requirement of prior approval is simply inoperable if the State is to use the short-term money market to enjoy the benefit of the day-to-day fluctuating balance.

So that hon. members will know the nature of th_e short-term money market, I should explam that there are two types of dealings. The first is the deposit of funds with an official short-term money market dealer who deposits Commonwealth Government ;ecuri­ties of equivalent value with the Reserve Bank, which issues a safe custody receipt to the lender. The Reserve Bank acts not only as the custodian of the corresponding amount in Commonwealth Government securities, but it also, in terms of the licence that it issues to each of these dealers, acts as the lender of last resort, so that although the dealing is with the short-term money market operator, in fact we have both the trustee or custody value of the Reserve Bank and in addition the Reserve Bank acts as the lender of last resort. That ensures that there is no possible way that the State can fail to recover the amount of its deposits with any of the short-term money market dealers.

M:r. Duggan: Does a State tax of any kind attach when they deposit their securities?

Mr. HILEY: No.

M:r. Burrows: That lender of last resort­does that mean that they more or less guarantee it?

M:r. HILEY: Yes, that is right. They may meet the situation where, having to sell some of these securities to repay the deposit, they strike some cataclysm in the bond mar­ket. The Reserve Bank, by its arrangement, says, "We will lend, as the lender of last resort, enough for you to keep faith with your depositor and we will look later into the question of getting back our money from the bonds."

The second class of transaction permitted on the short-term money market covers trans­actions in short-term Commonwealth Gov­ernment securities with such dealers or the Reserve Bank. These may comprise either Commonwealth Government inscribed stock or bonds with a short period to maturity or seasonal Treasury Notes. In other words, instead of actually depositing with the dealers cash that you draw back, you can use them for the purpose of acquiring short-maturing Commonwealth Govern­ment inscribed stock or bonds or seasonal Treasury notes. From figures that I shall present directly, we have found it of advantage to use both those methods.

Dealings with the official short-term money market are subject to a minimum of £25,000. No brokerage is charged by such dealers or the bank on any of the trans­actions. Because of the ebb and flow of the position of each of these dealers, there are market fluctuations in interest rates among the dealers from day to day, and indeed during the day. We have had cases where, even during a day, a dealer has been pre­pared to vary his rates by as much as 7s. 6d. per cent. on money at call. If he is hunting money at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, he offers a higher price for it. If he has completed his requirements, half-an-hour later he may shorten his rate by as much as 7s. 6d. per cent. because by that time he has covered his requirements and he is no longer an anxious borrower.

The first important principle of the amend­ing Bill seeks to permit the Treasurer, with­out the prior approval of the Governor in Council, to invest in any securities of, or guaranteed by, the Commonwealth whereof the term is less than one year or has, when the investment is made, less than one year to run.

M:r. Walsh: Irrespective of the amounts?

M:r. HILEY: Irrespective of the amounts. They are the short-term maturing securities. You do not have to wait 12 months to get it back and the guarantee of the Common­wealth for the repayment of the securities is not therefore of very great importance; you have to forget altogether the power of invest­ment.

The Bill further seeks to permit the Treas­urer, without the prior approval of the

508 Treasury Funds Investment [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill

Governor in Council, to invest with the Reserve Bank of Australia, or any authorised and approved dealer in the short-term money market with established lines of credit with the Reserve Bank of Australia as a lender of last resort.

So the two approvals that are sought are the right to invest, without the prior approval of the Governor in Council, in the short­term Commonwealth Government-guaranteed securities with no more than 12 months to run or with the short-term money market authorised dealers where the Reserve Bank of Australia is the lender of last resort.

There is a proviso in the Bill that the Governor in Council may from time to time direct the Treasurer generally in respect of the making of such investments and the Treasurer is required to observe such direc­tions, if any.

The second principle of the Bill meets a problem that has arisen with the buying and selling of short-term securities at a premium or a discount. Obviously, if you buy a 5 per cent. bond at £99 and hold it to maturity you not only collect interest as you go along, but also gain £1 because of the difference between the purchase price at £99 and the maturity value at £100. The purpose of the amendment is to remove any possible doubt by stipulating that the term "interest" means all moneys received by the Treasurer in excess of the amount invested. Shortly I shall give hen. ill.Cwbers a list of sorne o£ the bonds we have been buying for the Parliamentary Con­tributory Superannuation Fund-buying in some cases at quite a considerable discount, where, on maturity of the bond, the differ­ence between the purchase price and the maturity value is obviously one of the gains from the investment. It should be treated as interest. At the present time there is a doubt about it and the second principle of the Bill is designed to overcome that.

The third principle of the Bill is to amend the name of the bank from the Common­wealth Trading Bank, which was the bank for the State until the change in the con­stitution of the bank, to the Reserve Bank of Australia, which is now the section of the Commonwealth Bank that handles all governmental accounts where the Govern­ment is a customer of the bank.

The magnitude of our dealings in short­term investments may be gauged by hon. members from the figures I shall quote as to interest earned. I have to inform the Com­mittee that before bringing this Bill down we engaged on working tests of this to discover its problems, its pitfalls, and its requirements. Therefore, we are able to assure the Committee confidently that the permission that is now sought will in fact meet all the operating requirements.

From 1 September, 1959, to 30 June, 1960, the State received in interest on deposits with the short-term money market dealers £76,143 2s. Sd.; from dealings in short-term

securities it received from Commonwealth Government inscribed stock £14,147 3s. 6d.; from seasonal Treasury notes it received £3,278 6s. lOd.; or a total of £93,568 12s. 9d. From 1 July, 1960, up to date, the State has received a further sum in interest of £56,690. Those figures will show the Com­mittee that, by using this ebb and flow of daily cash balances, it seems we might succeed in obtaining in a full year something of the order of £120,000 to £150,000 that otherwise would simply be left in the Reserve Bank and would attract interest at 1 per cent.

Actually, Queensland has become, because of its skillful use of these cash balances, one of the largest operators in Australia, and the Committee will be interested to hear that there have been occasions when the amount that we have had on deposit on the short-term money market has amounted to 10 per cent. of the total deposits through­out Australia. There are times in a month when our balances are very thin and we have to run our investments down.

Mr. Walsh: You have to borrow?

Mr. HILEY: No, we cannot borrow. To give the Committee an idea of the number of transactions involved, in the month of July we made 18 deposits and 37 withdrawals, in August we made 24 deposits and 23 with­drawals, and up to the 23rd of this month v/c had made 23 deposit~ auU JO withdrawals. Over that period of almost a quarter, the total amount deposited was £21,750,000 and the total withdrawals £25,200,000. In fact, over that period we were down in our balance by over £3,000,000, but those figures will illustrate to the Committee that although at times there will be very little cash to invest, at other times there will be sharp increases in our cash availability. The whole purpose of short-term money market operations is to make the best possible use of the available cash to get as much as we can in interest for the State.

I shall now give the Committee figures showing the amounts that the State had invested on the short-term money market as at 28 September, but I ask hon. members not to be deceived or misled by the interest rates that I am going to quote. We never received rates such as these until about a week ago. I was reminded of the excitement created in the Press by the breaking of the 4-minute mile. I thought we should never succeed in breaking 4 per cent. on the short-term money market, but over the last fortnight my officers have succeeded in catching a few operators who were so starved for funds that they were prepared to pay it. I shall give the Committee the amounts we had on deposit yesterday morning.

We had on call at 4 per cent., £500,000; at £4 Is. 3d. per cent., £1,100,000; at £4 3s. per cent., £800,000; at £4 3s. 9d. per cent., £250,000; and the highest we have ever received, at £4 Ss. per cent., £200,000.

Treasury Funds Investment [28 SEPTEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 509

On call we had a total deposit of £2,850,000. We had in term deposits maturing on 15 October at 4 per cent., £1,000,000, and maturing on 25 October at 4 per cent. £400,000, a total on deposit of £4,250,000. I must say that I do not think those rates will last. I should say that our average rate is more like 3t per cent., but it just happened that with the convulsions of the money market and the fact that the borrowers happened to be caught short they were forced to pay higher rates of interest than normally they would wish to do.

Mr. Walsh: You really do not expect they will go higher?

Mr. HILEY: Not there. It is getting too near to the bond rate.

Mr. Walsh: I realise that, but the English rate has gone up, of course.

Mr. HILEY: Yes, but there is every indica­tion that the English rate might fall. It has served its purpose; it has attracted a vast flow of short-term investment money in England, and her gold balances at the moment are noticeably ahead of what they were over the last two years. I will watch with a deal of interest what might happen to the English bank rate somewhere about mid November to mid December. If I can read the signs. right there might well be a drop. The Enghsh people are not happy to maintain the bank rate as high as they have. They brought it in especially to stop the outflow of funds and to attract short-term investment.

Mr. Walsh: Over the years the tendency has been for the English rate to increase. Not at any stage has it decreased.

Mr. illLEY: It has gone on in a fluctuat­ing manner. It has been up and down. It is true that it is higher today than it was a generation ago; it is higher than it was 10 years ago.

Mr. Walsh: The increase that you just indicated is not a good sign either.

Mr. HILEY: It is a temporary spasm.

Mr. Walsh: I hope so.

Mr. HILEY: In case there should be any fear about this let me point out to the Committee that I have been watching it with keen interest. I have what I colloquially refer to as a "bull" session with my officers. We get around the table and have a sort of mental wrestle about the significance of some of these things. When we first broke through the 4 per cent. barrier I threw my hands up and said, "This cannot possibly last, it has got too close to the bond rate to be sustainable."

Mr Walsh interjected.

Mr. HILEY: In the last three years Queensland has succeeded in raising 1 00 per cent. of its debenture programme and each year the figure has been higher. At the end

of August this year our debenture raisings through local authorities and other public bodies were 30 per cent. ahead of the figure at the end of August last year. I have not been without some apprehension that money might be tight to obtain in the new year. I have been advising local authorities to gather rosebuds while they may. I have advised them to get the money wherever they can find a lender willing to let them have it. But the plain fact of the matter is that as yet there is no sign of the drying-up of the available cash resources for the deben­ture programme and I have been staggered to find that raisings up to the end of August this year were 30 per cent. ahead of the same period last year. Last financial year we raised 100 per cent. of the borrowings for the third consecutive year.

Mr. Windsor: A competent government.

Mr. HILEY: It is easy to say that but it has a much deeper significance. I raised my eyebrows when we could get a rate as high as £4 Ss. per cent. We could not get it from every dealer; we find the most amaz­ing variations between what dealers will offer. Some dealers are over-supplied with cash and rates have become very, very low. Often a dealer is short over the week-end and it is then that we pick up quite a bit of interest at a good high return. A dealer may be short of funds on Friday afternoon and he has to get them from somewhere.

The other feature, not necessarily related to this Bill, that I should like to mention because of its importance to hon. members, is to illustrate how interest rates may be picked up on short-maturing Government guaranteed securities. It is very apt that I should recite for the information of mem­bers of this Assembly, some of the recent dealings in regard to the investment fund of the Parliamentary Contributory Superannua­tion Fund, because it is something that inter­ests us all. Often very short maturing loans are offered for sale through the brokers in this city, sometimes in trifling amounts. The average investor is not very keen to go to a broker to buy a bond if he is to have his money thrown back at him in six, or nine or 12 months' time. The average investor in this type of security, usually does it for a period. He is not a habitual investor and is not continually watching the Stock Exchange. If he has £500 to invest he likes to buy something and put it away for 15 or 20 years.

Mr. Burrows: If he kept running to the broker every day brokerage would eat it up.

Mr. HILEY: These are all short-term loans. There is not much brokerage involved.

Here I have two pages of stocks that we have bought-State Electricity debentures, Brisbane City Council debentures and South­ern Electricity Authority debentures, all Government guaranteed. I will read just a

510 Treasury Funds Investment (ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill

few of the transactions to give hon. members some idea of the rate of interest that can be picked up with short-maturing securities.

In April 1960 we bought £100 worth of Si per cent. Southern Electricity Commission debentures that mature on 1 August next year. The cost, including accrued interest and brokerage, was £99 Ss. They will give a return to the Parliamentary Contributory Superannuation Fund up to and including maturity benefit of £6 lls. lld. per cent.

One could go right through the list. The highest example is State Electricity deben· tures purchased on 30 June at 4t per cent. interest. It matures on 1 June, 1962. There was £600 worth bought for £570 1 Os. 6. and at that price the yield to maturity is £7 14s. 6d. per cent.

I should like to inform hon. members that from 14 April to 21 September, 1960, we bought, from the Parliamentary Contributory Superannuation Fund, investments with a face value of £20,380. We bought them at a dis­count, so whereby we had to outlay only £19,878 10s. The lowest interest rate was £6 10s. 3d., and the highest £7 14s. 6d. The latest security, with one exception which I will mention in a minute, matures in August, 1963. That is not quite right. There is one loan here in 1967, to the Brisbane City Coun­cil, but that is the sort of thing that hap­pens. Somebody drops a £50 parcel on the market of 5i per cent. State Electricity Com­mission debentures maturing in 1977. Because it is only £50, nobody wants a £50 parcel. We bought that £50 parcel for £43 18s. Although we will hold it until August, 1977, the fund will get a return of £6 15s. 1d. per cent.

I mention that to illustrate how by watch­ing these short maturities, with authorised investments, attractive yields are picked up for the benefit of the fund. Although the Bill before the Committee is confined in its short-term operations to using either the short-term money market or Commonwealth inscribed stock or bonds with less than one year to run to maturity date, I thought it would be of interest to the Committee to know what further opportunities are present in other fields although, unfortunately, they are not extensive. However, we make a practice of picking up those investments for the superannuation fund in the hope that they will be of indirecl! benefit to contributors. I think I have given the Committee a fairly full out­line of the three provisions of the Bill.

Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­Leader of the Opposition) (12.16 p.m.): I did not know the form the Bill would take and therefore was not able to anticipate the Treasurer's remarks. I thank him for a very interesting survey of the present financial position.

The introduction of this measure certainly poses problems of tremendous magnitude for the Australian people. The Treasurer made

some points on which he may congratulate himself as a prudent investor, and in pay­ing him that compliment, I refer particularly to purchases on behalf of the Parliamentary Superannuation Fund. But I must follow that matter to its logical conclusion and say that, while he is to be congratulated on being a prudent investor, the circumstances of the Australian economy brought about by Government action on high interest rates are primarily responsible for his being able to do what he has done. What he has been able to do as an individual has been done at the expense of somebody else. If some­body pays £100 for a bond that the Treasurer is able to buy for £96, £78 or £85--

Mr. Hiley: I hardly do that as an individual.

Mr. DUGGAN: In the Treasurer's capacity as adviser to the fund, I should say. As a contributor to the fund, I am glad to take advantage of that. I am not critical of the Treasurer's action. I am merely saying, from the recital of events that have taken place, that as a contributor to the fund I would pay the Treasurer a compliment, but, as a taxpayer and responsible Parliamen­tarian, I deplore the circumstances that enable him to do what he has done. I think that is important.

I should like to come back to the general point that the Treasurer dealt with early in his speech. I think the measure is a sen­sible one. It embodies one or two very important principles. The Treasurer is given very wide powers that previously reposed in the Governor in Council. If the Treasurer made a mistake or embarked upon a course of action that the advisers of the Governor in Council thought was undesirable, the Governor in Council would have the right to direct him to take a certain course. That is an unlikely contingency, but nevertheless one that the Treasurer has anticipated and has very properly clothed the Governor in Council with powers of direction, but not­withstanding the authority so given the Treasurer has very wide powers to commit the State to investments of almost an unlimited amount.

Mr. Hiley: The money has to be available.

Mr. DUGGAN: The Treasurer said the turnover was of the order of £16,000,000 a month. That is a very considerable sum. If I could get amongst money of that magni­tude I would not be arguing about this matter this morning.

The Treasurer has seen fit to take advan­tage of high interest rates on the short-term money market. I think he has shown a common-sense, practical approach, purely as a financial administrator. But as a person with great responsibility, which no doubt he will attempt to discharge tomorrow when he introduces his Budget, he has to accept much higher responsibility for the financial affairs of the State, and must take into account all those factors that affect the economy such

Treasury Funds Investment [28 SEPTEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 511

as drought, high interest rates, and inflation generally. The Treasurer tomorrow will have to accept, as other Treasurers before him have accepted, the responsibility of giving an account of his stewardship and of laying down the course he thinks should be pursued in the future, so far as the State is able to pursue that course independently.

To day, however, he is in a different category altogether. He comes along and says, "I am a pretty wide-awake sort of a person and I have seen some opportunities that I have exploited to the full." For that decision I offer him my congratulations, and I approve of his course of action. But, as a responsible and very influential member of the Government, I believe he has contributed in many ways to the set of circumstances that enables him to do what he has done. I have not had an opportunity of reading the document that I have here very thoroughly, but I have read other surveys based on the report of the Reserve Bank of Australia, and reports of financial statements, and Dr. Coombes in this very document, and in other articles has drawn attention to the phenomenal growth in the last 10 years of the financial resources of the non-banking element of the money market. In today's paper we find that over the last few years the increase has been something like tenfold compared with private banks. If we pick up any financial report today we will find that in not one of the financial recommenda­tions by any leading sharebrokers are the private trading banks referred to as growth stock. In reports published as recently as Sunday last of the various types of recom­mended investments in the community there was no mention in any of them of the trading banks as growth stock.

I asked the hon. member for Salisbury to go to the Library to bring back an adver­tisement for me, but apparently he has been unable to do so. It relates to the Lombard Banking Company, who are offering 7 per cent. for deposits on 12 months' notice. In some cases I think it is reduced to six months' notice. That has been followed by Customs Credit Properties Ltd., who are offering 8 per cent. The interest rate has gone up 1 per cent. from that company. Many of these people are offering 8 or 9 per cent. on debenture stock. Even those companies that have been able to get finance for a long time are now faced with the problem of scarcity of money. That is a result of the deliberate device the Treasury adopted of giving handsome handouts per medium of various agreements between the Commonwealth authorities, the Common­wealth Parliamentarians and the top public servants. These things set in motion the whole chain of inflationary forces, and, to prevent it becoming too great and engulfing on the community, it sets out to stop it by introducing import licensing with the idea of draining off the surplus spending power and bringing about a tightening in the money market.

Several large motor-firm executives have been in Brisbane in recent times. I have been in conversation with some of them and I have been told that an exploratory visit to banks and other lending institutions indicates very definitely that money will become progressively tighter in the next few months. That is reflected in the Treasurer's own statement, when he said in an analogy that the 4-minute mile had been broken by giving more than 4 per cent. on short-term money. That shows the problem we are confronted with. Bonds are selling at a discount because this high interest rate is available in other forms of investment. It will be a very bad day indeed if we repudiate our Commonwealth bonds, and it must be remembered that it is a partial repudiation when we can buy £100 Commonwealth bonds for less than that amount. It is true that if the bonds are held until maturity £100 will be paid for them.

In respect of the short-term money market, I suppose it is only reasonable that no-one will offer higher interest rates unless he is sorely in need of funds.

Mr. Hughes interjected.

Mr. DUGGAN: West Germany at present does not want any money. All sorts of penalties and embargoes have been placed on money coming into Germany because it has a surplus of money. It was a beaten nation, but it has operated its money mechanism very strongly and efficiently.

In Great Britain the bank rate was increased from 4 to 5 per cent. in January of this year, and from 5 to 6 per cent. in June of this year. They also have clamped down on hire purchase, which we have been unable to do. I think our outstanding transactions in hire purchase are something to the order of £420,000,000 or £430,000,000. We on this side wanted to make our con­tribution to the problem when the Hire­Purchase Bill was introduced by the Minister for Justice last year; we wanted a higher minimum deposit laid down. Great Britain has done that. She has insisted on a minimum deposit on some goods. It is now having a serious effect on industry, par­ticularly the motor-car industry. It has been suggested that representatives of that industry might make separate submissions to the Government for the alleviation of their difficulties. Already, with the importing of compact cars from America, exports of motor-cars from Great Britain have decreased. Coupled with the curtailment of hire-purchase facilities, it has brought about a minor recession in the motor industry of Great Britain. This policy of inflation will have the same effect.

The recent Government decision to increase railway freights may have been inescapable, but, notwithstanding that, I was told by the wheat-growers on Saturday night that the cost of railing a bag of wheat from

512 Treasury Funds Investmellt [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill

Millmerran to Brisbane will rise to 6s. The wheat-growers cannot afford it. They may have to contemplate changing to some more remunerative grain than wheat. That will have a serious effect on our economy and it will make it more difficult to market our primary products outside of Australia. Any added burden, whether it be interest rates, wages, freight or taxation, will make it progressively harder for Australia to face up to the problems confronting the world today.

Mr. Windsor: Do you think we should reduce wages?

Mr. DUGGAN: Not at all; but the Gov­ernment are discriminating. They are giving something to men who already have more than they require for their own purposes and they are giving it without any agitation, or with only mild agitation. The great majority of the people, the wage-earners, are caught up in the vortex of the cost problem, and the Government are refusing to negotiate with them. I can understand the interest of the hon. member for Ithaca because he is regarded as being a well-known wage­slasher. I can understand his desire to implement his theories.

Mr. WINDSOR: I rise to a point of order. I object to the term "wage-slasher." Today I am known as the best wage-giver in Queensland.

The CHAffiMAN: Order! I ask the hon. gentleman to accept the hon. member's denial.

Mr. DUGGAN: I accept it; but, if the hon. member for Ithaca is able to pay higher wages than anybody else in Queens­land, he must have very gifted assistants to make it possible. If he displays the same business acumen in his own enterprise as he displays when dealing with the financial problems of the country, I am surprised that he has remained solvent so long.

However, the problem of inflation is tremendously important. We of the Aus­tralian Labour Party will use every possible occasion to force home to the Australian people the need to take a lively interest in it. Apart from our political responsibility as members of a party, we have a collective responsibility as Members of Parliament to join in an effort to combat the trend in cost structure, which is imperilling the economy of the country.

On the other hand we have the problem of either stabilised or falling prices for primary products with an accelerated price for manufactured articles. Demand for the farmer's produce is increasing year by year whereas the prices he gets for them are either stabilised or declining. It is impos­sible to maintain that position for very long. I do not want to develop now the argument about the European common market; I may do so in the debate on the Estimates. But we have to make up our minds whether to

try to persuade the British Government to join the European common market to our advantage or to stay out. We should cer­tainly assert our point of view firmly and not be dragged along by the coat tails of some other power, even it it be Great Britain. As I said the other day, without any sense of disloyalty, the trading policy of the United Kingdom will be determined by what she thinks is in the best interests of the United Kingdom, not of Australia. She will do exactly what she considers is in her own interests.

The Labour Party in this country has always deplored the fact that we have never had from the Liberal Party-I· say this par­ticularly of our present Prime Minister, Mr. Menzies-a vigorous enough fighter for the implementation of our financial policy. The State Treasurer has great personal gifts, and because of his knowledge and capabilities he is able to make a very material contribution on this matter at a State level. I compliment him, as I did previously, on the individual success that has attended his efforts in tak­ing advantage of a situation not exactly of his own creation, although I think that the Government have contributed to some extent to these inflationary pressures. When one is able to demand, as he has, rates of interest as high as £7 14s. 6d. on Commonwealth bonds, it is nonsense to talk about the oppor­tunity for developing our country and keep­ing costs down. What are these people using this short-term money market for? It is to suit their own purposes, not for the develop­ment of industry. When one takes into consideration the provisions made for taxa­tions, reserves, and dividends to shareholders, it becomes quite impossible for people to finance developmental operations. One has only to read the "Financial Review" to know that one of the difficulties confronting the hire purchase companies is the repossession rate. People are over-committing them­selves. That fact was mentioned in this Parliament 12 months ago, but one has to grow up in an accountant's office to make one's voice heard. It was said that the Labour Party knew nothing about the pro­blem. Statements made in this Parliament by members of the Labour Party and by Labour spokesmen in other Parliaments in Australia have proved to be absolutely cor­rect, but our views were rejected because the Government wanted to give free and unfet­tered rights to private enterprise to employ its capital. It was said hundred of years ago that money knows no religion or geographic boundaries; it will go where it will earn the most profit. Whether on an international basis, a State basis, or any other basis, money gravitates where it will command the greatest possible profits for those who control it. That always happens, and it is happening now. I regard the present position of our balance of payments as very dangerous, and it started off with a problem that made it necessary for this Bill to be introduced-the short-term money market.

Treasury Funds Investment [28 SEPTEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 513

The Treasurer should be in a better tech­nical position to follow the problem than I am, but I do not share his optimism about the possible decline in the short-term money rate. I think money will get progressively tighter as time goes on. That is reflected in the share market, and in the last 10 or 12 days there has been a progressive decline in the market. That decline has taken place because the return on investments in shares at their present level is not comparable with the return on stocks and debentures at the present time. People recognise that and so put their money into the short-term money market. I think if I had investments avail­'.lble to me, I would be very happy to accept Mr. Rickerton's advice.

Mr. Hart: Don't you think that the decline in the share market is the reaction to what has taken place recently?

Mr. DUGGAN: I think it is because people realise that they are not getting good value for their money.

Again I would not argue the point with the Treasurer. Nobody can forecast the trend accurately.

Mr. Hart: There has been a consistent rise over the last few years.

!VIr. DUGGAN: There has, but nobody is going to put his money into capital equities unless there is capital gain. There is no pur­pose in buying shares at present levels unless one is interested in capital gain. For instance, the income from our leading stocks, such as C.S.R., is about 1.8 or 2 per cent., and no-one will invest in those enterprises if he can get 3, 4 or 5 per cent. for a matter of a few months.

Mr. Hughes: Do you suggest that Aus­tralians are paying for luxurious living?

Mr. DUGGAN: That is a matter that could be canvassed separately. I am not going to answer "yes" or "no" because there are so many qualifying factors. I say quite frankly that the democratic countries as a whole certainly are living much more luxuri­ously than non-democratic countries, and ulti­mately that will have to be paid for. I do not want it to be paid for by way of a world­wide conflagration. Generally, those are my sentiments on the matter but there are so many qualifying factors to be taken into con­sideration that I would not be pin-pointed into saying that people are living too luxuri­ously. We do not want to go back to the "guns before butter" policy of the Fascists either.

I know that the Bill does not permit of a very wide canvass and I hope that the Treas­urer will not accuse me of embarking on too wide a canvass. He merely stated the posi­tion. He gave reasons to justify the intro­duction of the Bill but I am pointing to what has made the position what it is today. All of us, apart from party politics, should sound

1960-s

a note of warning on these matters. I am quite apprehensive about the future of the country unless we successfully grapple with the problem of inflation. It is a serious mat­ter to the community, particularly to those who are making preparations for their old age. Governments of all composition tell us that they know how to deal with our money more successfully than we can ourselves. They say that they are going to inflict high taxes; that they are going to put a brake on the spending programme of the people. They say they can handle the money better than we can.

Mr. Windsor: Mr. Hiley is looking after your old age.

Mr. DUGGAN: I do not think he was responsible for the Bill to provide greater benefits. It has all been worked out actuari­ally. If the fund is sufficiently solvent the Treasurer might even have another look at it. Unlike the hon. member for Ithaca, I am not concerned about my retirement from Parlia­ment. Because of the statutory obligation I am an active contributor but hon. members can rest assured that I should much prefer to be an active contributor to the parliamentary debates than to be a recipient from the parlia­mentary superannuation fund.

Although I am critical of the causes that are responsible for the Treasurer's introduc­ing the Bill, as a matter of common sense I agree with his taking advantage of the situa­tion to the best advantage of the State as a whole. Even £100,000 a year, which he says may be the benefit from the Bill, is worth while. It is true that he cut across some principles. I am a great believer in the pre­servation of the authority of this Parlia­ment, but we have to be realistic. If events are moving faster than the procedure of Parliament or the actions of the Governor in Council, we must be realistic enough to face up to the situation and approve the action taken. For those reasons we support the measure.

Mr. BURROWS (Port Curtis) (12.39 p.m.): The introduction of the Bill gives a great deal of food for thought for every intelligent person. Sooner or later, this Parliament and every other Parliament in Australia will have to face up to a full dress debate on inflation which, like the sun, is rising daily. Unfor­tunately, the snowballing effects of inflation are becoming increasingly felt as time goes on. One of the provisions of the Bill that I appreciate gives the Treasurer power to invest temporarily what would normally be regarded as non-earning or idle funds, with­out the approval of the Governor in Council. I realise that from time to time the Treas­urer would see opportunities for using this idle money, which could be earning in the hands of a smart business man, thus being put to much better use.

Mr. Walsh: Money was invested by the previous Government in a similar way.

514 Treasury Funds Investment [ASSEMBLY] Act Amendment Bill

Mr. BURROWS: Yes, but the Treasurer here wants the power to take opportunities that occur. I realise that he does not want delay, which would possibly cause him to miss the opportunity, by having to obtain the approval of the Governor in Council. I appreciate that point and, as far as the pre­sent Treasurer is concerned, if I had an estate worth leaving I would be quite happy to die in the knowledge that he would be my executor. But we must remember that Treasurers come and go and, whilst we are quite happy to concede that as a trustee of public funds the present Treasurer could not be bettered either from the honourable or discretionary point of view-it is not much good a man being honest if he is not dis­creet-! have been brought up to be perhaps over-cautious in money matters and my imme­diate reaction was that although it would be all right with Mr. Hiley, God knows what would happen if Mr. Morris was there.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. BURROWS: That is my point. Hon. members have to remember-and I will be quite candid-that there have been previous Treasurers to whom I would not give an open cheque. I exclude present company, but the point I wanted to make was that whilst we are all prepared to give the Treasurer authority to invest this money and to take full and immediate advantage of any opportunity offering, there should be some qualifying provision. There may be; the Treasurer did not say so.

Mr. Hiley: There are only two directions in which I could do it-one is on a deposit with an authorised short-term money market dealer guaranteed by the Reserve Bank and the other is by short-maturing Common­wealth bonds with no more than 12 months to run. They are the only two authorised directions.

Mr. BURROWS: I pointed out earlier, and I am sure the Treasurer appreciates it, that we have not to be influenced by the fact that we are dealing with a man in whom we have the most implicit faith. We must visu­alise the possibility of getting as Treasurer a man who might buy a bond at a premium on its actual value, or something like that. I do not object to investments without the prior approval of the Governor in Council, but I certainly think subsequent approval of the Governor in Council should be sought. As the Treasurer has indicated that he appre­ciates my point, I shall not labour it.

It is regrettable and alarming that oppor­tunities for manipulation exist and have existed for a long time. Only in the last year or two have the people generally become aware of the profits that can be made by those who neither toil nor spin, that is, the credit manipulators.

Mr. Lloyd: Usurers.

Mr. BURROWS: Yes, usurers. From my reading of the Bible I should say the only time Christ ever showed indications of intolerance was when he upset the tables of the money changers. From the Christian viewpoint, anyone who attacks the money changers has a precedent for his action.

Opportunities for manipulation do exist. When I was a young man anyone who tried to expose these Shylocks was regarded as a crank and was called a socialist and other names, but in these days we have greater public realisation of money manipulation and of the way in which certain people are able to profit at the expense of an unfor­tunate person who is financially embarrassed. As the opportunity exists, I think it is better for the State to take advantage of it than the private individual, the Shylock, or the manipulator. The Treasurer has shown a great tendency to invade a field that was previously regarded as the preserve of the Shylocks and manipulators. I am reminded that the time may be opportune to consider the whole subject rather than the investment only of Treasury funds. I pointed out recently that the Treasurer is really the trustee of the State, but the field of trust funds is a wide one. I had experience recently of a solicitor who held in a trust fund for 11 years £1,000 belonging to a man who was on the basic wage. It was only by approaching the Law Society that I was able to get the money handed over. The owner got the bare £1,000, after a period of 11 years. If the value of that sum was discounted, as it should be owing to inflation, he actually got only £400 or £500. His money had been lying idle. In fairness to the solicitor I must say that he did not get any advantage from it, but the bank got interest on it. Sooner or later we must take some further action to deal with all trustees, both of the State and private individuals. I will repeat what I said earlier. I hope that hon. members will be reminded by the remarks of the Treasurer and the Leader of the Opposition of the dangers of inflation, and that sooner or later we will face up to our responsibilities in this Parlia­ment by having a full-dress debate on those dangers.

Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (12.51 p.m.): I was interested in some phases of the Treas­urer's remarks. Generally speaking, his pro­posal can be regarded as only a machinery measure to assist in determining Treasury policy on the investment of what might be regarded as surplus funds from day to day. There can be nothing wrong with that and, as the Treasurer knows, it is not new to the Treasury. As I have said before, I give credit for any improvement in this respect to the Deputy Under Treasurer, Mr. Eric Riding.

It was obvious in the past that Govern­ments were holding considerable sums of money and were not investing them in any way; they were not earning anything for the

Treasury Funds Investment [28 SEPTEMBER] Act Amendment Bill 515

Consolidated Revenue Fund. As time went on, certain amounts were invested and returned a very tidy sum to Crown revenue. The Treasurer has extended that practice, not only by this measure but also by a pre­vious measure, and in effect he is giving it the parliamentary imprimatur to put it on a proper basis. That is all to the good.

I was particularly disturbed to hear that part of the Treasurer's remarks that indi­cated a substantial increase in the interest rate that could be regarded in terms of mil­lions of pounds. I do not think any Treas­urer could be happy with that, nor should any Government be happy with it. The reasons for it are many and varied. For instance, I do not concede that this State's policy has any considerable bearing-up and down-on the adjustment of financial policy. That matter is now exclusively in the hands of the Commonwealth Government. They have the sole right to emasculate the banking legislation and their actions have let quite a few people run riot in the investment field.

Before I get on to that matter, the Treas­urer has said that in the last three years the State has been fortunate in that the local authorities have been able to raise 100 per cent. of their borrowing programmes. That is very good for the State. In saying that, I think the Treasurer is fully aware that while the moneys may have been attracted to finance local-government activities, consider­able restriction has been applied in other directions. The Treasurer will not disagree with me when I say that irrespective of what Government are in power there is only a certain amount of money in the financial pool that can be made available for finance under the various headings, whether it be in real estate, Government securities, or local­authority and semi-governmental authority dealings. We hear from many sections of primary enterprise just how difficult it is becoming for the land holder, for example, to get financial accommodation through the banking institutions, whether it be the Com­monwealth Bank, the Reserve Bank or any other bank.

There are those difficulties, and no doubt somewhere along the line somebody has decided that it would be advisable to bring as much money as possible into local-authority and semi-governmental activities to assist the overall employment position. That is a realistic approach because it must be con­ceded that in making the money available to various public bodies for the disburse­ment of funds to create employment, it will be spread over a wider range than if it was concentrated, for example, on building or any other individual industry. As we realise, the electricity authority, which is now on the market for very substantial amounts in Queensland and in other States, together with other public bodies, has activities dis­persed over the whole of the State. On the other hand, there might be a big building programme in Brisbane or Rockhampton or

Bundaberg, while other parts of the State may not be getting the benefit of such employ­ment.

The point the Treasurer made about interest rates and the gain made on the purchase of securities for the Parliamentary Contribu­tory Superannuation Fund is quite good. He said that such a profit was of considerable help to a small fund like that, dealing in hundreds of thousands of pounds as against funds dealing in millions; but, unfortunately, the person selling those securities loses a good deal of the capital he invested in the first place, whether it be in the State Electricity Commission, the Brisbane City Council or any other public body. That has been one of my complaints over the years and it has been mentioned at meetings of the Loan Council. Something should be done to protect the small investor-the man who invests his small savings in those securities. Somewhere along the line, through the financial policy of the Commonwealth, those people are forced to sell their securities when they are thrown out of work or when they have illness in the family, or suffer some similar misfortune so that they are unable to meet their financial commitments. So it can be said that the Parliamentary Contributory Superannuation Fund is bene­fiting from somebody else's misfortune. The Treasurer will agree that no-one wants to sell his securities unless he finds himself in financial difficulties. There is no reason why people should sacrifice the amount of capital indicated by the purchases that have been made by the Treasurer on behalf of the fund.

What is going to be done about the matter? In recent times Mr. Menzies announced that, with the agitation to do something about hire-purchase rates of interest, the Common­wealth Government had been worried about them and would study the constitutional powers of the Commonwealth to see if they could get over the difficulty. They had the power in the first place and, as is well known, they surrendered it. It is rather late to do anything now. Frankly, they must have a look at their constitutional powers. There was a provision in the banking legislation of the country that gave the Commonwealth banking authorities con­trol over investments by banks and, when the Commonwealth Bank legislation was amended, that authority was taken out and the banks were given a free hand to invest their funds in hire-purchase activities. It is too late now for the Government to be crying over that spilt milk. The fact is that the Commonwealth will find themselves in difficulties in dealing with hire-purchase people unless they are prepared, as I have said before in the Chamber, to restore the legislation to where it was before, or in some way have hire-purchase advances defined as part of the banking system.

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 1.1 p.m.