Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

WEDNESDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1915

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

D~bour Exchanges Bill. l13 OCTOBER.] Leave of Abscnc'' to Jionbers. 1251

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

·wEDNESDAY. 13 OcTOBER, 1915.

The PRESIDENT (Hon. Sir .\rthur Morgan) took the Lhair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PAPER

Tho following paper, laid on the table, was ordered to tho printed :-

Report of the Public Service Board for the year 1914.

LEAVE OF ABSENCE TO ME::YIBERS.

PERSONAL IDXPLANATION.

'l'he SECRETARY FOR lVIINES (Hon. W. Hamilton) said: With the leave of the CounciL, I would like to make a statement. Yesterday the Pres'dent made the following statement relative to motions purporting to grant loaYe of absence to members of the Council:-

" In the Minutes of ProcoedingR in the Council I find the following, under date 7th September-

' Ab-cence of Th1ember.-Mr. Hamilton, by lf'ave, without previous notice, mon,d, That leave of absence for the remainder of the se,sion be granted to the Honourable J. Lalor.

' Question put and passed.' " Tho pa,sage of S!ICh a motion by the Council <an have no other effect than, possibly, to 1nislbctd the memb-_r to whon1 it rcf~·-rs, for pov.,'er to grant leave of absen~,, to a member is, b·:c tho Constitu­tion Act of 1867, speDially ;,,_.,orved to the Gov ~rnor. Section 23 of that Act pro­vides that-

If any Legislative Councillor shall for t\Yo q_wcc;:;sivo ses· -1ons of the Legis­latme . . fail to give hi' attendance in the said L<,gislat'vo Ccmncil witL:mt the per.nission of Her Majesty or of the Governor . . signified by the . . GoYcmor to the Legislative Council . . . h'·"; seat sha.ll thereby beco:~.nc vacant.''

I v, ould lil;c to explain that the renson I rnoved that n1otion W[U thj--. : , .... cry early in the sos--ion, when I had only b:en h€ re a few cla: s, thu Han. Mr. Thvnne came over and informed me th.1t the i:Ton. Mr. Lalor was very ill, ,:nd wculr;l be un:1ble to come down i ·; a.ltenLl th( Coun<Jil tbj s; ::;-t1~ -,ion ; and he asked me if I wou1d kindlY mcvo th~ t leave ot absencd bo granted to th3 han. nH~'nber for the rct;,aiLd }1' e: tho cOs'·ion. I had no idea that in ubmitting ~uch a moi.: m I was < untra', cnir1g tho Standing Ordrrs of the Council, bec:1use the Standing Orders in :.'rothcr place to Y; :1:ich I hav-e been accus­to•ncd a.llo ~, oven a privrto :2~,m11bc:r to move th'lt k...cve of absen ' be grcv1ted to any other han. t:ci0'11bcr for <>~~~tain rcr:- nns. 1-\nother J:'f-<,11::011 v. hy ! had no id0h t\at I w.:-ts con~ tr,a venin~ tho CDnstitution Act v ::ts that the Hon. ::vir. Thynnc had bcc:1 a memb-er of the Council fer many years, o.nd he ha.d been the leader of tho Govern'llent in this Cham­ber a!ld a Minister of the Crown for sam~

Han. W. Hamilton.]

1252 Leave of Absenee to Jdembcrs. [COUNCIL.]

years, and I t wk it that he was conversant with the Standing Orders, and out of cour­tesy I did what I would do for any hon. member who was ill. (Hear, hear.) I thou~;ht it was my duty to do so, believing the Council had power to grant les.ve of absence. If the statement had stopped there it would have been all right, but the Pre­.~irl('nt wPnt, on to say---

,; Not onl_v is the pa-..,~agP of such a motion as that quoted open to the objec­tion I have indicated, but it is open to the further objection that it seems like an attempt to usurp the function" of the King's rcpre:-;vnta.tivC". ''

::-.low, I would no marc> think of attempting to usurp the function·· of the King's representa­tive than l \vould of allowing the King or the King's repre<entative to usurp mv func­tions as a rcprosentati,-c of the people in this Chamber. (Hear, hear !l That is m 0· feeling on tho subject. Whe:t I lool~rd at the etakmo•1t in wlcl print I felt annoyed. '\Ylwn tht? Han. 1\L·. Thynne made thA request. I w.t, nncler tho impres,ion that the Standing Order on thf' subject wa,, the sa-me hero as in the Ae<,Jmbly. I hope hon. members will bclieYc me when I 'av that I ac·ted with the !wst of ]pJ-;r._tjou~~. ·

HoNOl:RABLE iviE"BEHS: Hear. hear!

The PRESIDE:'\T: ln r<:!Jly to ''hat t!w Niinistc,. ha5 just nid, I would lih to say at onf'G th:~t in tlH~ statelnPnt I n1ade to thP Council ye~torday th0ro \'·ns no inten6on on tny part to r'fi._~i unv rC'flf,ctiou upon thP l\lini tcr in dunge o( the Government busi­ll<''" in this Chamber. (Hc.ll', hc':cr !) Nor do I belieY", Jookir !1,' wnv at '.vhat I ~:id to the Cvuncil, tlwt there is anv ~"-1ch rpficction conveyed by 1ny re1nark::;. f sin1plv p;inted out thHt t-he pn1ctico of <..arrving 'a 1notion in th"\ Council granting leave fo a n1en1her of the CounLi_l to absent himself during the rP"t of t!w scsH>on cc:!ld haye no effect other than possibly, to misl('ad the member to whom th~ n1otion rcfen·c·d; and, further. the pra··tiu~ ':·as open to tiH' objection that it seemed hh· an att•empt-not by the :VIinistcr, but bv tho Council-to usm·p the functions speciallv reserved by the Constitution Act to th~ K~n~'s represel}tatiYe. I can only as,::;ure the Mrmster-I thmk the assurance is scarcolv necessnry-th:tt there was no attempt to cast any refkctiou upon him. I mav add for the 11il!ister's informati0n, that t'he pr~ctice of passmg such motions has not been con­fined to this Parliament or to tho last Par­liament; it has bcon followed for manv years. But Jt is an erroneous praC'Hce, an{! J thought it my duty to point octt on th•; p~·csent ocr.asion-as I pninted out on a. prc­ywLn occasw11.-that the Council vas att.;mpt­mg to cxerciFe powPrs which it does no• poss~ss. I ~onsi~r~rt"'d it .tny duty to T_JO:tnt out to the CmmcJl un th" nrc~c·nt occa·wn-~ as I did on a pro\·ious occasion~-and as I shall onsidcr it my duty to continuo to point out, that E1c proper course for a n:crubor v .. ·ho wis!ws I .1 obtain leave of al. .enc·J is to applv to Hi' Exc;•1Jency the Governor. If goo(J rct'·-_on c~n fH• Elh01Yn for t~1e applicntion, thz: l••uvc; \nll h·l graw.~·d; but it is only t!-" Governor , . .-ho t·;w grant it; the Council can­not gr 'n~- it. ThP l\1injs~or's c,·zplanation is a ]Wrfer't!v cl, o~r Rr ,tcr·,H:'nt of what led un to his action. For rny part, I have done n~ more th,,n my duty. I have only to add

[Han. W. Hamilton.

once more that I intended to cast no reflec­tion on the Minister who moYed the motion.

HoNOURABLE :ME)IBERS: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I have much pleasure in accepting the assurance of tho President that he had no intention of reflecting on me personally, although, look­ing at it in cold print, it appeared aJ if th~e>·e was a reflection upon myself, and I am hke the Irishman nt a fair-if I am hit, I hit back.

lion. F. T. BHENTNALL: A similar thing has been done here frequently, but it hns a.lways bt'en done inadYertently.

Tho SECRE'l'ARY FOR MINES : I do not 'up pose that the Han. :Mr. 'l'hyn;tc thought lw was doing wrong when he asker] me to neon• th•·· motion.

I1Pn. T. :VI. I-IALL: 'Veil, 1vo haYP had ~ht~ praeHc·(' El~dc dear to us now.

\YORKERS' CO:J.IPE:0lSATION DILL.

TIIIRD RK\DING.

On tlw nwtion of the SECRETARY FOH :YIIKES. the Bill was read a third tinw. ]JasR<l. and ordered to be returned to tlw ~\~· Pinhly by lllf\1--.:Ja.p;e in the usual forn1.

L.\BOCR EXCIL\XGES BILL.

::\IESSAGE FRO}J THE ASSE:\JBLY.

The• PRESIDEXT announcC'd receipt of a nw•.-ag<' fn.n the As'·ombly intimating that th('y di'.t~:rl'~L·d to the Council's atncnd:ccnt i,, chuse 17 and in tho title, but offered to '"'" nrl cLnoe 17 by acldin;; the followin~o pr-ovl-,o :--

,, ProYiclcd further that no <'llllllow!l· chall be required to furnish any ;.et1;rn llfHler this: sed ion in r(> pect of.--

(q) _\ny pPl'f'On~ t'Hlploycd by hin1 for n lt>,s period thnn thirty c.lay"; or

(b) .\ny pcrRons employed by him and vvhc. na.nH:s t:rE: ineluded in a return of employee' furnished by him under the Factories and Shops Act of 1900."

In which amendment thev invited the con­cunence of the Council; 'and ac;reed to all the other anwnclme 1t; in the Bill.

CoNSIDERATioo; IN Co1Il\JITTEE oF AsSE}IBLY'3 :11ESS,\GE.

(Hon. W. P. 'l'aylor ·in the chai1'.)

The SECRETARY FOR ~liNES moved H1at tho Committ2e do not insist upon th~ omi.o.ion of claur<." 17, and that they agree to the amondmPnt proposed by tho \ssembly i!tc,·uin. When th·'Y were debating· this clau•e some hon. members had an objection to tho whole provision. The Hon. Mr. Leahy 1novod tho folLJ·n ing ~unendmt•nt:-

" Providnd further that no employer shall be required to fur1n~h any return nndor thJ.s 'C'tion in re.".pect of-

h) Any p, r'ons employ,od by him for a lrso rwriod th m thirty days; or

(b) Any per-;m·' employed by him nnd y,·ho '~ nanlE'S are inclnd(ld in tt. return of c nployc0s furnd1ed by him unclor the Facto ric' and Shops Act of 1900."

That an1enchnent \Ya5 dr·feated, and ono·

L~tbour Exchangrs Bill. [13 CkroBE 1.] Meatworks Bill. 1253

'.lnakiug the period fiYL' WC'l'ks wa-.; 111oved by tho lion. :\1r. Thvrmu and carried. After­wa 1·Js when the den so was put to the Com­mittee the whole duuso w:ts deleted. ThP "'l"ombly objected to the delet:on of the whole clamP, Lnt wcm quite willing to con­·8ent to thl~ inE\ertion of the an1endrnent ln·o­pomd by the Han. Mr. Leahy.

Question put v,nd passed.

The SECRETARY FOR }UJ';Ef.l moved that the Committee do not insist upon their .amendment in the title of the Bill. Con­sequent upon carrying thP arnendrnent ·delet­ing clause 17 the Uonunittee altered the title• of the Bill. and that alteration was not now uecessary.

Ho:-<. E. W. H. FOWLES: As one who spoke very strongly on the clause which hQd j Ltst be('n dealt with, he rnight he per1nitted to fay that tl1e amencJ,nent accepted by the "\sRt•mbly prm eel absolutely the wisdom of the> ( 'ouucil lfOing through the whole Bill very rurefully. The antenchncnt was an t'xcellrnt cmnnrotni~P. and vooult1 save t.hou­:o~rl nds of u.--n<E ,..., rPtnrns being f'Pnt in frorn ,all )Htrts of the country, anrl that was du!' to the ~-tar>] t 1w ( 1onneil took wi+-'n n•g·ard lo this partic·ular provision.

Ilox. K ,) . STEVF:XS: As far as his lllC'lnOr\~ sE'rvr•d hin1, :it had Leca usual to di,tribt!h' tlw Dill when considering the As"Plubly's am0-nd1nf'nts, but so far all he bad 1'(''- eivcd wa:o; a copv of the " Journals" of the Assembly. I-Ip thought they should not d0part f"on1 their usual practice, but that the Bill. a,; amenclecl. should he distri­buted 'o th:1t momher" !night know what ihey were doing. "

Hox. P. ;r. LEAHY: He had no par­ticular obicc-tion to the proposed alteration in the title of the Dill. or rather the restora­tion of the tit](' to it, orig·inal form, but he thought that claus0 17 would be operativ,' even if that alteration were not made in the iitlc.

Hox. A. G. C. HA \CI,~THORJ'\: He thought th•· tit:e should be amended again so as to harmonise it with claus(' 17, as amended. \Vlwn they clc!etecl dans£> 17 it was absolutely necc·>ar:v to alter the title of the Bill so far as it referred to the making of returns by f'm)lloyers. hut hQving now agreed to retain clause 17 with the amendment pro-1>osPd by thP AssC'mbl~·. they should restore tlw title to its original form.

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: The title enumerated quite, a number of things, hut he thought ~hey could do a who:e lot of things which were not snociallv mentioned in tho title as long US they Wel:O Consistent with the title. However. lw did not think anv harm would be dono by amending- tho title as propos0d by the )[inister.

Hol'. F. T. BREl'\Tl'\ALL thoug-ht it ;voulcl ha vc· bee;1 better, and probably mon' m accordance with the nsnal practice in cases of this sort, if notice had been given of the intention to take the iiNembly's message into

·consideration at wrne future time, possibly at a later stage of thP present sitting or to­morrow, so that members could have ample opportunit.v of considering the nature of tho amendments to which thev were asked to agree. This amendment had been sprung upon tho Committee mdclenl v. \Yhen the cia use was being debated there was strong ·Opposition shown toward> it. and even after it had been considc·rccl and amended the

clau:;c \\ H~, 1:ejectcd by a sub3tantial Inajority. Ile thought it wa-; po~:ible that ~orne mem­bcrh \Vh(J hurl spok( '1 on the rnatter had simply rnisundt)rstocd t!JL' proposal, because 1hey had had no tim• to think about it, and be ;vould suggv'<t that in futuro notice should be given of th<J intE>ntion tv take the _/\,sseinbly's llle5<lge into considtration.

HaN. T. C. BEIR:'\E: Tlw amendment made in clause 17 "'".s not quite like the Hon. Mr. 'I'hynne's amendment. which pro­videcl that the eection should not apply to any person who was employed for a less p~riod than fiyc wt'~+s. SornP rnembers objected to that "mendJeent because it would mc-;m that employers would have to make t\VO rotul·n;_-----ono of their permanent r'tuployees, nncl anotbPr o£ per;..ons employed by them for lp;, thau tive weeks. Tho '"nendment submitted by tlw A,gpmbly was a 111uch bL;ttcr onP thDn any arnenclmont pro­posed in tlw Council. and he thought they dJOuld accept it without any delay.

Hon. T. O'SFLLin-;: \Ve hav<> accqlted it. Que,tion put and ll'"'rd. The Council resumed. Tlw UH.URJ\!AN

'eported that the C'o:nmittee did not insist upon the on1i-,~ion of clHn:C' 17. and agreed to the amendment pr<lposed b;~ the ~\.ssombly therein. and did not insi't upcn the a.men<l­l!lent in the title.

'lhe report was tu:J.optNl; and the Bill was ordered to he returnpcl to tlw Ass0mbly by 1nessa~·0 in the tL3lud for1n.

~IEAT\YORKt'> BILL.

SECOND READDTG-RESC:.IIPTION OF DEBATE.

liO'T. '1'. C. BEIH~\E : Whm this Bill wtts first introduced in anothel' pbce it did not eont.ain tho prr,..;ent elaus'-" 2. Consequently.

m:wy pcop!P W<'nl mm·h alarmed [4 p.m.] becau:n the Bill gave the

G-overun1ent po\"\'81' to take over not only the rnoutwork _ _, but, by proclatna­tion, any other ''enterprise, undertaking, bu"ine:5s. tnanufaetorv. or works." and it gave the Govermnenf power also to take over any of these things at the price of the· assets without allowing anything for good­will or for the cost and ·expense involved in starting, organising, and working up a busi­ness. No wonder the people who had some­thing to lose were alarmed. and no wonder the bankera, who fupply most of us with the tneans to carry on our enterprises, wait.ed on tho Minister and pointed out to him the effect this Bill would haY(' on those undertakings, and tlw effect it would have on the limitation of o1·C'rdrafts in the future. And which of us can do without OYcrdrafts, and which of us can do without credit 'I HoweYer, thP Goyernment were sensible cnoug'h to realise the position, and grace­fully ac,"ephcl the suggestion of the bankers t,J limit this Bill to the duration of tht' war and to a period not exceeding six months thereaftPr. \Ve may. thc·rdore, now look upon this Bill as. a \Var n1ea3urc. It mav not, bC'. and. indc>ed. it is not "hwlntelv ncce~sarv at tlH.•- nloincnt. brr:..,use the meat­works o\vners arc quite willing to do all that i, humanly po~siblc in the way of keeping up supplies; but they cannot clo impoy;ibili­ties; they ro:t.nnot produce rain, nor cc1n they erPat8 fat cattle ·wherp none now exist. But it is only right and proper that. at a time of crisis like• the pr,•sent. the Gov,ernment should have all t.he powrrs conferred OY\

Ilon. T. G. B,inu'.]

1254 [COUNCIL.] Jieatwork:s Bill.

t,hl'rn bv this Bill, :::u tlLJ, J1onhl thJ occa­,,;,Jn ar'i"'l', the·.·· pJv,:;:_-r3 c•n be e.xerci;:jed. AltholF';'h an1ple pO\VC"r i~ given t.ht.' Gov_ern­n··:nt l--uidt~r -this Bill, it d-)CS n<:t foll0w th:1t tho Gov0rnn1cnt is going to exc·rdse that p-.Jwc~·- Frcrn th~ nlnn.~ den cf the }fini· t:01'. I r_ndcr~·tand fb -the pc;'.Vll'S undC'r t:w Bi:l· '·ill onlv tu in L.3e c£ n<!cc:.­sitv---in c -.;c tho 'o1.~.-u('l' j._, nn'\·. illjng to ('arry en~ hi.~ work> s~·ti"ftt :oril~"· In a tin1c of ;.Jav~\ !ri;:i,; likP ,d;,e pr:\'CT~~ "':c n1u-t ,~ru"t, ~'-.I!YL•budy, \'VllfV' aULlOnty h illOl'O ItttcJ

t J b(· h·u th. n tLo GovQl'l1JTI01t of ihO' cour::. ~r~.- ':' l{c ll ~-. tho G overnrnent of the d ---rlot Oi1lv 'the S'-: ~c G.'\"· :.·nnh·nt! but tho Ctn1D1Cil..,'i-t ~dtl1 Governrncnt ;;.nd the hnp·-ri:-1 Gu\erJlrt1rnt-~s de·-i n·ing of our ;,ynlp:>thy, our 1<).-, alty, .--\nd the hearty co­''lLrL ~icn cf GY0l':" ci~ncn. They havo' tl"•:il-;~ ; ncl "l1Llou:-. tirne cJ it, Hn:l I an1 :draid thc>r~-~ El'Q :·L111 rno~:P anxicus ti1ne-; aLead. I~ is _-,-to criticif:. .. ' and to find fault, but tY:rlt is wanh:d llO":Y i·-J co-ordination, co­(Jpcr.;tion, and a hearty suppcn~ of eycry l11ea­:-nre HL f t-.?nch to bring this· v.-ar to u "'pd_~·dy ·.:nd sue-,· -. -ful tcrrnination. It iJ to be pre~:nn•'cl then that t:1e ownc·rs of tL\; meat­wotks 1.vill at:· in a rPa~Gnablc \Yay, and that there \vi11 1)(" uo nee<>· iit v for the Gov·=--rn­m._nt to excr-:- ;, f' tho po-\vers confr-rred on thern by this Bill. l$ut supp 1 '-'3C the GoYern­ment c0:::-·.illc"· ihHt t~w O',vneri' are not work~ ing their v. ork:; !:'at: _,fncturil~'· a::.:.d proc"·~ed to hke them ovN. Th0 Ron. P. J. Leain. in his HpeP" h yc,-,terday, pointed out the method to be adopted. and eriticisod the payn1ent b:T debr-ntures, lVhich deb0ntures are to C'fllTY n rah~ of intc:>r(·~t not les'3 than 4 per ecut. and not more than 5 p<'r cont. 'rho hon. men:brr cloarly pointrd out the inec.1nitv that may ari,c under this provi~ sion. Now, eornparo this 1nethod of acquir· ing enLrpri'e' wilh tho method recently adopted by tho Imperial Government. l:nder the Ddenco of the Realm (Anwndment)1 A0t of 1915. and under the :Munitions of War ~-\ct. the Imperial Government have taken t;rvat pO\Yers to then1f'Plvc'::, but they are wmowhat diff,prent to the powers proposed to be taken under this Bill. I would like to read one or h, o extracts from the lYiunitions of War Act. 1915, assE>nted to in the Imperial Parliament on the 2nd July of this year-

" Part TI. 4. Controlled cstablish­mcnh.--If the ::\linistcr of Munitions con­siders it ucpedicnt for thf' purpose of the suc,'' 1::ssful prosecution cf the ,,·ax thut an:~- e~tablishrnpnt in \vhic>h munition)' \vork is card0-d on =:,h-Juld be subjt..ct to the special provisioH'J as to li!nitation of c>mpolyers' profits and control of penons employed and other matters contained in this BC<'tion~ he :rn.ay 1nakc:' an order declaring that E''tab!ishment to be a con­trolled f"-"cabli<hment. and ouch order being· mad•. tho fr;llowing provi,ions ehall apvly thcr2to:-

(1) }wy cxeec,s ,,f the net profits of tho ronholiod establishment o1·er the amount divisible under thi•, Act as ascertained in accordance with 'the peovh:ionA of thi;:, .... 4.ct, .shall be paid into the Exeh~quer.

(2l Any pr{lpo>al for any channJ in the rate of y, age>;-;, &~b ry, or other t}rr_-~)Iument~ of any class of persons Pn1ployed in the establishinent, or of any pPrsons engaged in the rnanage­ment or the direction of the estab­lishment (other than a change for

[Hon. T. C. Beirne.

g'lYlll;:;' viFe{'t to anv Gu\-Cl'lllllt:lh

co~~ditic,rs ;).s td fair" \Yages or tn an::- agn'emPn ~ bct,·:cen d1·_ oF·nL'r tJ th0 ('~Lbli;;hnlcttt and the ,,~ork­Incn whi( h vicr .. ~ rna do before th~-., tw~,nty-thil'll da v of J nne. n:in3-r~cn hundrt·,l all,l fifteen) ~hall b0 :-.nlnnitted to the l\iinister of :\lnni­ti(Y .:, ,;-l,o utav 1vithhold >._is t 1)ll·

Vi,-ithin fc-n;t~!('Il d::-,:, of th\; dattY the f nbnlit;'don. . . . If thD,

o ·1wr ()f the <' ·-t-.1bli:-:hn1ent or any r";Htrn< for or sub-eouhrretor employ­in; lab. ur ther.-_in rnakcs a.ny .::,llch· ch:~lL,'', c..r atten1pts to 1nako any :;uch, c-h;, n~, c. v;ithout ~ulHnitting t:1e pro­pc, tl for the change to the ~linister of }[u:niticn;;:;. Cll' Y. hf'n the ccn,,t·::lc cf th_, }Jinistc-r has been ,.-ithhclcl, he -1all t gujlty of an offcncJ undo~:

this Act.

t3) ,Any ru.le, practi<'c. or enston1 not having the force of lHw, 1Nhich tends, ~,, ,-~;ct•·ict produ' tion or U''nploy-111' st, "h.:Il be ;;uspcnded in the E.'"-1:1b­lishnlelli.; and if any p.c_~rson indutv--:. or attempts t>J induce any other pee­"1_11 (vrhet}H'l' any particnlar plrson. or \.;'f'IH'rall~·-) to emnply, ur continue: to comply, with su<h a rule. prac­ticl\, or f'U·toni. that person -·hall be· guilt)- of an offt:?uce under thi::-: . ..\c+."

'Tht:rr' a1 ;~ 'n rious other SC'f tions of a sirni· Jar character duding "-ith wages, output, contrul of bbuur, Nc.. which I new! not quote: but I woulLl ·like w draw your· attention to the following occtimb dealing with th<) profits of a controlled E'iltablish­HH'Ht ;-

,, 5. Supplenu-ntary pro-dsions as to tht·· 1irnitation~ of the profit& of a eontrolleci P::-tablisl-unent:-

(1) Tlw net profits of a controlled c;tab­lishment shall be ascertained in accordance \vitb tho proyisions of" thi~ rection and rules n1ade thore­nnd<'r, and tho anwunt of profits <liYisible under this Act shall be, takf'n to be an amount exceecling by one-fifth the standard mnot.nt of profits.

(2) ThP standard amount. of proftts fm· any period shall be taken to be the, :tn'ragc of the amount of the net profns for the two financial years of the establishment completed next lwfore the outbreak of the war. or a propcrtionate part thereof."

Front the ~ .dract_., ~vhich I ha·· _, just read, you can SPL· that in"' the old co1n1trv thu· authoritil'R do not propo:,e to acquire'; but thcv take the power to controL to limit the pre'fH"', to regulatE:' agr""J and to abolish trad0 union :ruL:,.;:; or unv oih~r cu,"-t0111 bv which outnni r<light b· 'limited. I am in~ clined to think thnt their proposal is better· than ours. It i:-: fairer to the o\vners, because they and their rnanagerfi are always in po~; .. c-s-:;icll1, and thf~ busines:; is conducted and cnrried on as cxperiulC'e ha~ J1ro..-ed to he the nwst succe-.EJul Wfl v : and \:i hen the war i'3 OYer. the busine;:;s ~is not ruine-d by in1·fficient~ iE~·xnc~..·ienc.::d, 2-nd incon1petent 111'tllagel<, RS it mav eac,j]y be under the ln,f'thod \VP pro post' -1 J adopt under this Bill. A; I am a ,hareholdPr in one of the me~t con1pa.nios, and thus pet·uniarily ic1h"r "'ted, I do n-1t intend to vote on the' second reading if there is n division, nor do,

]vleatworb Bill. [13 OCTOBER.] 1255.

l int('tHl to y(Jte c~1 anv an1endnu~uts that Hlvy b._~ pl'opo·'·t·cl. But ~ r:.s a. v, ar InC~:"ure I \\,:l -~1nH~ the Bjll, and l \Youhl wr:1cune any rw•~)· qre that h'1S for its objec~ thu or~..,nni .Jti Hl uf th•! i.ndustrir•;:;:, the re:iources, the rnanl·,Jod, a1-d thr; wealth of the· coun~ry, :;o tlL:t. united effor.:~ rnay be nlOl'O ufcc-tivol:- n to pre CU• anJ bring to a spr-· dy,- c·cnr_•]usiou t:1i~ tc-rriL~e vvar in v.-hich we arc now (·nfSagccl.

Ho~ rc-RAB:.E 2,1£7-~BI.:llS: I-Inar, hear!

li<?~- E. J. S'_!_lE'</E:\S: It 1;ill be gcn,:~·ally a·llulttcd that tl10 Bill JnDY be consich rGd a \Var 1W .... a~:l111'l\ >:1:11d the1·cfoT~- the tcond rc-~d­in6' ~~<nuld i_,r 1r, ·-~ed. But it do( s not fGllo\~­t! It, b.-r"UJ·,, Jw jnid.:;,le of t:lG Bill is ac( ·.!pt -l, the: w:1oL} OJ~ t',e dctail'j should b<J .uc:'-,_tJtod ::12·), . .:\ .. g'lC~at {~G J of hardship n1ay anse under the nro;,·i:")ion-: <·~ a Bi1J-no:5sib1v ~wt .ri: h .lny 11~ulig-n intention of atn1v';·ing o_r };':t:; ~'3-iLg t)w owners oi n.t atwOl'ks,' but Sl!LOly frorn ? L .. ' dual <:ontrol of thL1 f>.'l'SOll .uppoiirl-::'rl hy the Go" .·rnlnei;t an.i tho nHJ.H,t':(t.~r of th0 1:rcr1-:-s. ~\ct·or.~ing to cJau~ .... ,., 5 and 6, tbe contro~ler '\\·ill have~ C'DlnnLtc control of the bu~lncss, alHl it is Quite p~-.ihle that he may not be ail good a man as the 1nan-ager appo_i:Dtf·d l:y the co1npa..ny, losses muy occur tJnouah bad or hastv ndlninistrat!.on. and the <~ontro1lf:r then ha~s cbo ri,.ht of '~ying how thoe· lo ,,c; shall ba apportioned. ~~lthough the nlct<-iure iti only Jo continue in fo:'c·c until six months after. the expir:ation of the war, there is notlung· statc·u m the Bill as to what com­pensation '·hall be paid to the owners in tho event of the works being mismanao·ed and g·etting into Lad order, or anything

0

of that Hort. Tho joss will fall entirely upon tho owner'l of the meatworb. I think those cl";uoc·.> should be amended to prevent hard­ship O'{'C'un·u;g to the owners und0r such cireulW:;:banccs. ThC'n, arrain. the Govcrurnent will baYG pow1.;r to t~ke-'oye'r anv \Yorks anrl the wvrks are to be paid for hy" Gol.·Pn{rnent dcl1C'ntur0s. As ha~: bPen pointed out, thoso dob.en1nrPs nuty not bo as YalualJ1e \Ylwn thmr holders wish (o realise upon them a •. they are ;,-hen they are given.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: And there 1s no limit H'l to their currenry, either.

The SEC'RET.'..RY JiOH ~.HINES: There are a lot of P~?;Jle tryi'!g _to g_t rid of property now. ..;u~?. they aro 1 1Htir~JO.tJng that they are quite w11hng to ta~:e uDvernnwnt debentures for th~_·rn. I haYe the offer of about a doz~:n coal H.lillC'S 011 the,e tPl'lUS.

IL•n. T. :'tl. FL\LL: I haY' n. 1ni :e I will .<::ell :~ ;~u chc.:.Lj_L

The PRESIDENT : Onler, order !

II ox. E. J. STI~ VEXS: That is beside the qac:.:tion; but it i!:> pl'obablo t:1at the rcn.eoE. rho PC:l"fiOrh_ a:~ ',\·iHii!g' to g··t rid of tht Ir C

1oahniDes 1s t!L~! thoy en1ploy a

ln.r-5·e Hun1orr of nwn, ancl theY are afraid of the krrihln amount of industrial leo-i,Ja­t.i.oH th0 GGYt?rnn1l'nt are introduc.inr-

0

and threat('ning to introduc<'. TheY mav b·~ vcrv glad to get cut of the lmsin8ss i{ there {s the. ~light0~t chance to l'f'Jlif;f' ou their pTo­perti. ~". I thin~i: r:on1e n1odifi<r~tion should be lJ 1 :" in th(J Bill to t'IlSlH'' that, th·• ~?,-ner~\ c£

1 iJl~' ·wod,~··· IY~ll J:;e tre./:.tr~d fa~rly.

fhat Si"lOU,·Ci t)('l U~ JTIHC"n tllC ObJPU. of COP.­

/> iclel'ation Ly the Govc1·nn1ent as the £2~C't that it may be necessary to take \York·' OV<·r in the int<·rcsh of tho general community.

If tho:<o clames arc· i>:nproved and m:cdf' clen.r, the Bill 1nay be pa~ .. 0d, as it b one which is requi1ed owing to the stccss of the vvnr eonJitione vd1ich P''evail .at the prc·,ent tinJ.e.

UmwUR\BLl' :vlr:IIBERS: Hear, hear!

HoN. A. G. C. HA \'i'THOH:-.r: A~ vYith certain ,J lu....,t se~:3ic.:.n, Ho on ~ can object Bill 0 oing thi-ou r_)l its ::;_cond r-cuding u-=- a. w,,r n18<.<-sure. -'-\.s ha~ b~1 Gll , 1rc:v1v ex JainL I, it as ilrb:. intro­·du.ccd. in the otlwr }louse \Vithout a tin1e· lilnit, and it 1vas only l;ccause thr:- 1ncnt coln­p:tnie::; ard othr..rs who '"!Yere in-t·:~"'·c--ted Yl e.rc g; ...... atly c.~l:.um~:.l,. au

1d flL'!L. ~c:n1.' _tti~,.L~'," to ~l~

Govcrnincn-1: tn;.,.; tne : Cl 1ng Pro1nh;r (l\Jt. .f-lnL;.LT) ugrc·,d that it ~houH.l Le treated as n \Var n1P·~s-u.re. That nut .-~n entin.<v clif-fc ·f•:nl; on the (JtH' tion. Dnl "there ,houid r.o dou'Jt ahou' the h.•ccmd r' .'iding lH~jn~r l>t> NJ lu.·re-. But t 1tcro ,,re one or two fc~+tu",1 vrh.;,h lnight b.• ainpliiif·d in Con1-IHi~tt'~· i>""l der to giYc t~w 0'\,Yne:-s cf tho rt.tc.Li.·,,;orl·:s f>iill 111ore SJ,ti-£a,ction and ':''Jcurit;,. l1cy }un-o no objPctic,__a, as we have no ohj ,.._ tion, to -evr:ry a·:,·--ishtncc br·iug giv(•n to dH' Governnlellt to rnovide Il1C~lt ftnd anv otlH~r cmn:noditv re ;uired '' hilo this wu~· is On: but they werC. .,mlle,:hat surpri,:;,cd <tt thr attitu,J_, taken up by th·: GDvornment Dri=:li"Ll,lly, h('c'RU"·: t~~r,~- had d~nc eVQr~\'thing +hoy could to ])~ oYide ll1L t.t fvr the Irup;_~:''iai Gove_lll1wnt's rcqui,-e.mc·nts, and for tho n <lUi::re>HFHltq of thP J)eft•nc-0 l)f'_JarLnent of Au>traliu. There had bc:en no complaint in rtg,.rd to th8ir efforh-3 in this dirr"··:ion, and naturally they could not underBtancl why they \Vf\rc singled out for lcgi3l1.1tion of thi-.; character, or ·why tbC'y \Y.ere 0ttacked for closing down thPir 'Yorks as thr-·y have done {''\·ery yoar dy:ring tche- hi')tory of UH:at1vurk2-in QJtecmsJ,nd. Th0y do'·ed down beeauhJ thc·re vvas a 'horL;ge of cattll'. The lion. :Ylr I'Vhitting·ham has given quotations to the 1£-ou.sc, ~ho,vinp; that it }-·H lH'en th~ custon1 for .JneahYorks to run for only a. pu.rt of tlH.! :, NU'. I think that only in onf' YP\lr have they continued operations du1~ing the ,v11ole hveh e 1noni hs. The a Vt~P.LgE' tifne of their op~:~ration·3 has been six. or ~Seven n1onth'', so1nt ti1nes ('ig·ht months. durin,~ the ye;1.,r. \Yhen it bccunH~ impo.~:.,ible for thc1n to bav cattle in order to enable them to "'arry on thcie works at a profit, th1y c!o"cd down, .and they haTe b~·"":n a.ceu,s.ecl by p-ersons out­~idl' of h:1Ying clos"d rlov,-n in 0rdl'"!' to ~pite the GoveLLn:..c·nt. f do nvt think the:-e -wa.~ th' slightest intt"'ntion on thei1· part to cl<>""'~ do1-vn t:1Bir rnr·abvorks for any such purpose, <:1!1] r ~·tumlh· tiwv think i• YC'!'V hard. that 1;H GoY:·JTifl('nt 'Rhou\-l pro'J( ·,c to C'om­Jnancleer thPir \vorks in tL.:o ' 1 "':". it ·was propo,,.ed to C'Oi.11!11andef'r tlw·n l-:r~Iorc this V-'aS In·nJ.o a ~. :u n1rasur'' onl ,-. 'Tho -quc.'-'"'Jion rrs ic) 1vhat i.: ~·air·~ to lYe dotH~ aft0r tho ;,var \Vith any vvork-s taken oYvr is a very in1por­h.1,11t one. Snpy)oso the GoYernH'·('l\t take po:,,sc~sion o.f a. meatv.orks_. ·hill the:,. still go on runni1,1g, tho.se "\Vorts, or 1-vill .they ht:tnd t1Jnn bac;: 1:0 tlw owners nt a. pnce eqnn"a.­lcnt to what the Go, crnme·:;t paid for them, Ul1d will the· Government take the delJGntnrcs hack at face valu", or will tlF~Y 1vant cash? 'fh:lt i'3. a n1atter th·Jt rf'quircf, ~')nle con­~ir\·~ration. nnd l ~hould Like the M~l;isto:' 1,1 ~~1ry 1.vhat nrc the iclcn~ of the: Govorn1nont p:_•on this particula1~ point.

The Sl ~REI'ARY t'OR MINE~ : The·: do not want to take oyer anv m-"'at-.:.t_·ork:;;.· ~,_nd are uot likPly to <:lo so unless it is :rwcP-sary.

Hon. A. G. C. Hawthorn.]

l2fi6 ;~[ eatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] 111 eatworks Bill.

Hox. A. U. C. HA WTHORX: But suppose <hey do take over th<> mcatworks, will they run tho,,c works after the war is over?

The SECRETARY FOR ::\IINES: I do not knmY about that.

RoN. A. G. C. HA WTHORX: Will they give the owner an opportunit! of getting them back? P<>rsonallv, I do not think thP Government are likely· to be called upon to take over an:: me.ttworks, as I am sure that 'he )Jroprietors are only too anxious to ~..:eep their \Vorks going if they can 1nake '.noney by doing SO. rfhe }1f'ople \YhO O~Yll the rncu.t v orks \Yant to know if th~ GoYernment do t1.kP poss(~dion of thoir v;orks, what ,,~ill b<> their p::Jsition when the war is ovu, and I hOIJP the l\,'flnister V.'ill give ns son1c assurance rhat tlH' In eat·,-\ orL .. s propri0tors arC' not going to be penalised in any way. The Bill is drawn upon ve-ry different lint:.; from thosP of the Munitions Act paosed by the British Parlian1cnt. The Governrn('nt in England <li'e quite sati:,fied to allow the O\nwrs of factori(" to ca1T:.~ on operations under Uovernn1e-nt SHIJPrvision) and 'Yith a regula~ tion as to pari;cip:1tion in profits and the an1on1lt of prufJt .. to bP n1adc. That is ver\. diffC'rf'ut fro1n ln'ki11g OYPr th0 1vorks an~l carrying then1 on a,s you like, po:..,'3ibly \Vith persons who havp not had experience in the industry. The nw~tworlu proprietors arc all disturb.d by the provisions o: this Bill, and it is b b<' ho1wd that during the passage of the measure tlwough Committee, the Minister will acct•pt an amendment which will rncpt th<' cases I haYe referrC'd to, and that he will give us an assuraiH'e respecting what will be done bv the Government at the end of the war with regard to meatworks that may be taken over. The whole world is revolutionised at the prcsp.nt time, and \ve haYe to net according to f'Xisting circunl­stanccs. I am sm·p that this Chamber will give every assistance to the Government to pass a nH'a -ure of this kind, with a view to g"::;i;-,t in bringing the prePC'nt. cala1nitous \Var to a speed v and a snce0·;sful cc,nclusiOn; but other people have interc•ts which ought to. be considered, and I hope the Gov!'rnment ;.nil not do any more than they can help to upscot the pres,cnt state of affairs.

. HoN. A .. A. DAVEY: I agree that this ts a .v':ry Important measure, and that some prov1s1on should be made for dealing with meatworks in case th<> neccssitv arises for the Governm0nt to take them oyor. It appears to me that t_he meatworks Poclmpanies arc only. too anxwus to carry on operations, prov~d.ed theJ: tan c1o so profitably, but when cond1t10ns arise whJCh make the workino· of their large establishments unprofitable, ft is not hkel~, that the companies will continue to work thorn at a lm.c'. The condition of affairs in the world to-dav is of such a nature as calls for special and p;trticular legislation. Re~erence ha' been .n:ade by the Hon. Mr. Bf'trne to th" Mumtwns _\ct. which deals more fairly with the owners of concerns takPn over or controlled the,n is propo1cd In thlR mctsnn'. The provision in clause 5 sopms to Ine vPry unfair. Tlu\ elause says-

" Wh0rA it appears to tlw Governor in Council in refC'n<''.lC'P to any n1eatworks that it is dv.irable in the pt1blie interest that t!w busine0s tlwreof ehould be carried on for an0- period under State ront~·ol. tqc GovPrnor in OounC'il may, by proccamatwn, appomt a controller of such meatworks for such time and with

[Han. A. G. C. Hawthorn.

such powers and subject to such condi­tions as the same proclamation or any other proclamation may declare."

That is all right, if it stopped there; but it goes on-

" The pmH'rs so confcrr0d may include any po\n'rs of controiling, con­ducting, continuing·, extending, rC'strict­ing. varying, o1· di~wontinuing tho businf'ss and operat.iolls of c;nch Incat­·works. and the po\Vf'l" to crC'atc ehargf's on thP property of the ownpr thereof in priority to PXisting charge's. The G-overnor in CounC'il n1:t7>', in like :rru1n1H~Y, Jirfet ho-,\· and by \\-hoin th0 rPinuucratlon, charge,;;, and expense~ of the l'Ontrollc;· shall bP borne, charging thrm. if dt><'mf'd just and proper, on the propprty of tlw lfh.llPl' aforPsaid in priority c,r othPnYis0 to ('Xi~ting charges thPrcon.''

That "Cd1l!:' to rnu to be vcrv nufair. The generfll fN:liLl;{ an1ong tlw p{lhlic is that if the oc(·asion Rlion1d arise t.hc GovP.rnment will br perfectly justified in controlling or tf!king oYer any nlf·rthYorks or othc·r works, w1th a. 'ie\Y to Lrlnging about a srwedy and success­Ful issue of the war. But I hold that if a community are to be protected in this way, the conHnunity n1ust pay a r('asonable amour1t to P)>:er 1:10 transartion:3 that arc neccssarv to give thP!ll security. rrhis r.Leasnre givf:;; po>n•r to the Government to put a eont~'oller into a 'rnPat•;vork.)_ to rnanag0 or rnisrnanage thos0 work,, to ,;top thP works altogether if the',' choose, and to incur what expense !hey like, and make that 0xpenditure a first charge on property. That i" not right. If th£' GoYernnlt•nt takf' ove1· anv meatworks thev should deal fairlv with the owners of thosE' meet hvorks. l t is not necessary to do anything unjust.

The SECRETARY FOR MTXE>': \Vhat reason have vou to think that tlw GoYernment will do anything that is unjust?

Hm;. A. A. DAVEY: The claus<' I have quoted giws them power to act unjustly, and I would not give that power to any Govern­m<>nt. I contend that after a proper account i1as been taken of the business \vhich has been controlled by the GoYcrnment, any loss which nmy have occurred during the term o£ thnir lnnnae·C'Incnt should be 1nade g·ood, and thp~· should plHC<l the owner on a similar footing to that which ho occupied •vhen they tcok cuntrol of the concc·rn in which he has iTIYCBt0"c1 his capital. If the GovcYnn1ent t:.tlce over ' priYate enterprise of any sort. illlcl it is in th" interest" of the community to do so, they should bo c.alled upon to pay, not <> fane:" price. hut a. rc'asonabln price, and to ind~,rnniLv tho owner in a rP~ttionahle wav against tiny lo•c'~es accruing during tl}c timO the enternrise is under their control. Pos­c,ibly there may not be any loss; the Govovn­ment may so n1<1nag-e t11o meabvorks that they >Yill be in a mow efficient condition at the end of their term of occupation than they werD when they took them over, and in such a <:a~<: tlwro woukl be no demand to makn g' {Jd any loss. But some amendment should 1,~ mad<l in clauw 5. providing that the ownf:rs of an;\T r,oncern taken over by the GoYerntcl.,nt BhJ.ll be placed in no worse position than they were in bdore the works 'vcrc taken oYer. Son1cti1nes people boco1ne obseesed by certain ideas, and do not see the inj usticc whieh attaches to a particular

Jlleatwol'ks Rill. ll:J 0CTOBEP..] Jlcaiuwks Bill. 1257

"'·action. The> pu1J1ic gPnerally do not want to do anything that j~ unfair or unjust, !Jut iu giYing f'ff{'f't to tlw dc"3ire of the rnhlic nJelnbr!r:-; 111a~· be so ohse><>,""'L1 d i.Yith <'l'rL~in poiitit J or otl1er ideas that tn1th appems to thPm '" falsr hood. and fahelwod iik' trnth. .a.nd darkness appc:1r" t0 tlwm as light and hght as dad-::np~-s. Then\ ncn bo no othe~· 1va.v of accounting for the ditfPrent views cxrne"f'Pd by leading stat-esn1011 in th(! world in re~ard to In:att~?r:3 on ·whi('h thev havp thP fUllH' -infonnatio11. SotnC'tinH.~"> rne':n of equal intt>liectual calibre. with the qme amount of knowledg·e, ancl equally honournblc, after hearing a n1atter di"-r:ussod ar:-ivP at clia­metric ,,l!y opposite conclusion••. That can

·ouly be dnc--Hon. P. J. LEAHY: To a moral twist.

HoN. ~\ .. A. DAYEY: ="io. I ,rouid llDt sc,·; a moral twist; it um Dniy Le due to a <'G!1·

viction that is very Iikelv a faJ...p one. I think a. 1nan's faifh larielv influenceR hi~

·opinic_:n. If a 1nan bc•lie;~{';~ iu juMice and truth, he cam10t poc··ihly do ,,nything that appears to lnrn unjuf:l- or untnH'- If he has a distortPd idr a of -what justic,, is. or if hP ~houH think t!Ja· ,_•L-inter<•st i- of primu lmportnn<'P, ancl that ju':-tice Fhonld ta kP rlH•

~econd plaet>, then he i:, likd,· t~) :[4.30 p.m.] do what i·J unjust. I eaimot

think thnt tho conllnunity would ~u:ITPr any GoYPl'HtllC1lt to <:1o unvt:J~ino· vn¥ j:..lf:it: lmt' the· lH'fH .. :nt GoYe:·nnlC'nt ~nu1v cLC' .in flO\Vt•r for three VE>6E>, and tJ1cv n1av- do rnany injnsti<'O"· :d~u·ing that ti1nf\ -and we

'knm\' p0rfeetly ''ell that so colllplai.;ant arc• th0 ll•";ople that they very soon forg0t things and A•ttle down and suffer verY gTeat injus­tice. That is well kno,Yn to all' who studv hu1nan _nat nr~. \Ye . a; e a long-suffering commm11ty. I hope the Goyornmont will

-:ac·eept Bon1e um.endment in f'1athc 5. I v•oulcl like son1e hon. n!ernber 1tho it5 rnore directlY interested in the busineSB to sr•e to the dra.f­ing -of tho an1endznent. I {'ertainlv will (rivl' it 1ny hrarty support, lwcansP it i~ ncceF~l.r·,­to 1nake it clear that, \Vhert' a eontrollf'~l

·concern is passed back again to the owners after tllP Government have don(• with it. it should he returned in no worse condition than \Yhen it was talH'll over bv thf' Govenl­·.ment. · · ·

Hox. G. S. Cl'RTIS: Tlw Government have <listinctly declared the Bill to be essen­tially a war measure, and, of cou,se. that :li>.arnp any opposition to· the seeond read­Ing; lmt thrrc is a strong itupre,., .. ion that the Bill, a,; framed, is not fair to the ·con1p·;niPs ·whose property it IP. propo13(~d to take oYer. There are sen•ral clauses which will require &erious f'Onsidf>ration in Con1~ mittN•. In the eYent of wo~ks being taken over, nnd bProining- the absolute propertv of the State. the .-alue is to he• fixed l:v ·the Land !Jourt, but there does not appear 'to be ·.any nght of appeal ag(linst tho Yalnation, and it :nay hP an unfair Yahuttion. If thP prk:_• is to he, fixed by th0 Govern1ncnt, and thcr0 i.s a l'ight of appenl to snnrc othPr tribunal, thPn it will ho all right.

Hon. P .. J. LEAHY: That '" o])('cicdly barrwl.

IIox. G. S. CTitTIS: If ther0 is no appeal hom the valuation of tho Land C•mrt. then. i;; S<·.Cll1S to me that it 'will bP exceedingly unfmr to the owners of the meab.-orks whosp property is taken OYC'r. Then, the Bill is unfair ina2n1urh as it does 11ot. 1nake provi­-r,ion for cc1nponsation for the business that has been tak<"n o;-er. The owners of the

businE•,~::; haYe bu:~n c·arrying on for VP<Il'::->

and I presumP that thPy n1ade a n•a:--oiW.ll\•' profit; and~ if they ar.p to lw dc·privC'd of their \Vorks and their profit~. th0v <'l~rt:nnl v should be cornpensatecf for it. 8;:1IYJl' proY~­sion tiheuld b:• n1ade for C'OilllY'n~,-,\tiun with rcspl'f'i: to goodwill. rrhf'n, there j '; th0 qul\0:­tiO!l of th2 rnode uf payn1ent. It 1~ pr.)pc-~od that t!w works shall bp paid for in Go­YernnH:nt stock. bnt owing to i:hP \YUl' and othPr a-dv~~r~f> ccndition~. tlH'l'P n1av bP a derneciation in the 'alue of GoYl·nunent sto<'k; and, if thPre is, that d::.>preciation should be rnaclC' good to the ownt~rd of the JH opl~rty bv tlw State- whi('h has taken the propt~rty over.

'I'he t\EC'RET.\RY FOR }JJxEB: \Y]wt about t]w holclc'rs cf other GoYcrnm. nt debentures? Thou~and.;; of other p(~oplc hold Govcrnruent debenture·,, and if tht:."'rl' i~ a <lepr~'ciat.ion thc:v han• tD suffer.

Bon. 1'. ,J. LE.\HY: But thev Wt•rc not forced io take the Gon·rumeut · deb~nturp· ... That is th<' difference.

I-I ox. G. S. C1.~RTIS: lf tlw GoYernnr0nt ia,ke property :nvay frorn the crwn~rn, they ohould pay cash fnr it. Thl' mvnC'l's had to pay naf-lL a11d the propnrty r,,presf>nts e;tsh, ,;u that they ,!Joule! be puid in caoh. (Hear, IHar !) If th<>y haYL' to takP GoYf'rnmeut ·"toek, and that ~tock dcnrPciatc~. thl' Go­Ycrnmrnt ar0 robbing· thos-\~ p0ople of a por­tion of tho Yalue of thPir propert.y, and I am f-..Ure the pcuple of Que>i•nsland do not 'YUilt anvthi1:g of that son. If they takl' on'r a bu "ii-,~·~:;, thc.'• ar(~ quite wilEng to pay n fair ya]ue fer it, and also to pay sorncthin;,~· for tho dislof'atiou of the bu~!nPs~. The owner,; should not be (:t any Ic-,s through thf' GoYC'rnznent taking OYC'r thP prapcrty. Thf' l"1ITlnanit·~ a.r(' cr~rtt:Linh· f'ntit1ed to sonle C'onsid0ritiou, as it j~ thrOug·h iheir enter~ pri3P that the export trad<' in nw1t. has been rstuhlif'lJc•d, and that the value o£ th,, flock~ and herd;-; of the StatP ha~ b.:cn greatly 1ncn,a~Pd; ancl thos0 flucks and herds arP a ilational a ~l')Ot. It is C'"CC'ecdingly ~, rbitrar:r ,,nd unfaiy· to tah:t• av.ay a businc,;s fronl the original owner-;, -..vho ha...-e carri"l'd it ou for yean; \Yith a 't•ry ~roat adYnntag-e to thP \vhol(' of Quet~Inland, without paying a fair price for rt and givin~~ t~e 0\1. llt_li'S an1plP <·ou1pensation.

Th<! SECllETAHY FOR :\hNE~: \Vhv should vou always harp on it that the Gm·ernmL'nt "are not going to pay a fair price?

HaN. G. S. Cl:RTIS: BE'cau~" there is no provision in the Bill for an appeal in the cyent of thn price not being considered a fair one. At all evento. I haYe not noticed anv such prm·i ,ion in the Bill. •

The SECRET.\RY FOR J\IINES: The Imperial GoYL'l'll!YlC'nt took oyer 'the raihvays, and a lot cf fact<~r;C'S. r;n·l t'Y<~r>-thing· they re­quired chn·ing t.lll' war.

I-Icn. P .. J. LEAI!Y: But not ill the~ c<tnlt~ wa:v as this Bill propu•c,.

Hox. G. S. Cl.'RTIS: There:• is a dan"' which says that the value i., to be deter­mined bv" the Land Appeal Court. I suppose that tribunal will be the court of first in­stance in the matter. There certainlv should be a rig-ht of appPn.] from that court in thP even.t of its valu:lt:ion not being sa.tiR­factory to the · owiwrs. In another clause it is prm·idcd that, iu the eYE'nt of property being taken ovPr absolutely, it is to be handed OYer by the owners free of dBht. Snppo,ing the owneL• have bonowed money

Hon G. S. Curtis.]

1268 .:.11eatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] ~11eatworks Bill.

upon the security o£ tho property, surely th1 Go·- er1H11C'!lt do not (.Xpect the o\vners to pc.y oii {·;1; liability upon the property be'­fci~"' iho C~.OYf'rn1n:nt enter into possc-aion. If "there is any C'ncun1brancc upon the pro­perty, the' Government should di:'c'h :rgo that obligation thmn~ch e·'·· Tlk·n, clan'\e 14 g~Yt:-"' tho Governn1cnt P0'\.''1' to Ld~e other other "entf..rpr.i f;.s, nnd'"'rtaklngs, bu~:sineBscs, nutnu­facturie·J, (1.1' ·vrks, ill or bs 1. hirh any natur 1 product-, focJstufL~. Gl' f'~lTI111F)ditie"'i

pr .. ·parcd, ti·r·~~tPd. packed. d:ored, F·lld, livered. or othen> iso .ch·,no":,cl of." Of

< on1·;;.r·. if the pruri·-ion of ti1e Bill are not fair l0 tlw U\Yncrs of n1-.::.t:,·.ork3, they \Yill not b..., f :1·· ·Lhe ('· r..0r:1 cf tl~ ·sc other bn irH" 0 ~e I not int·c;ld .to oppos;.,; t~t: Bill, hut dt to F1DTH1a_~lse the conY1C-

ti(~n in Iu}:·~d that thP Bill. as :ranH.:cL is cr·t fa.i1· th-· ov. ~l('J .s of thP.<o l!,Tt~:tt U!1dcr-tuk!n,~' j UlH1 UIT1('ll(lll1LLt-s ~h011ld bo 111~de 'vhirh \Yill suHit .iPntl \. sPc·ur<> the: owners of the \~:orks if dE'Y Eu C c1i'priv0d cf i.h ... •n1.

Ho: . E. \Y. H. FO\YLES: ~vhny inkrht­int~ qn:.. ~ rions arise in c •nnectjon with this Bill. Th·~ qu tkn1 1nigl:t '\vell be asked: IL~~ dwre be ~1 any prouf that the pastor~ ali,'" of Quep;·,·,l and m the O\vnerB of the In-~at\",·orks in the St:~te have be'cn so un­patriotic that the Government ccn ider stwh a Ineasun."l. L! {':='f~··ary? Sur.::ly the p['~tqr­alir.t·, and the O\Yllt'l'B of the 1nerrhvork haYt: hr(•n as patriotic as any other cia,.., in the community, ck,pitc the talk al,out there beinb a trernu},Jons beef tru:3t here.

The SECRET.\RY FOR :'\1IXES : X o one is reflecting on then1.

Hox. E. \V. II. FOWLES: Is there any need for thi,, me~sure? At thu verv bottom of the measure there is an ln.::inua!ion that the n1eatv~:ork" are not being conducted as thr3, might be in the' highest interests of patriotism, otber\vise there \Vuuld be no neud for thP Governn1ent to intervene Surelv no such mlJ8u·e should be introdnc~d until the 1H~Ct1f .,1 h· for it is obvious. It has been ~aid that it 'is a 11·ar measnrc, but I have failed to find out where it says in the Bill that any enterprise which rnay be taken ove'r during the v~-ar is to rsvert to its O\Yner~ at thP enll of the war. Are these works to be per· petually owned by the Gov0rnment?

The SECRETARY FOR 2'.1nn.s : If the Govern­nlc:nt take thr:n1 OYf..'r and pay for them, they belong to thn Government, don't they?

Hox. E. W. H. FO\YLES: Yes, if the Go­vernment givE! a fair priee for th<:m. But '"Uppc3ing thP Governn1c11t take over meat­works under this Bill, is it int· ndcd that th•, Government thall become the huge meat· works owners nf Queenslano '!

The SL.'VETA''Y FOR MINES: It is not the intmEivn 0£ the GoYer:nrnont to take cvc1· anv works unless the m\·ners of the works refuse to con1ply with tho regulations issued under the ... -\.ct; but it is ne'eGf'.1mry in a time of v;·ar for thB Governnu:nt to haYe the''' powers. I have information hich it is not de ,irable to gin' to the Council.

Ho:-;. E. W. II. FOWLES : \V <'ll, if it is necessarv for the Government to ha Yo these powers, ~is it not necessary to h.tvc a claus0 in the Bill enabling the Government to com· mandeer all the stock in the '''JUnlrv? \Yhat is the u~c of having rneatwo1·ks if -\·uu have no C'attle to put throngh then1? ~

Th" SECREnRY FOR MINES : The hon. gentleman is a great lawyer. IIe should know that we have passed two Bills already

[Han. G. S. Curtis.

<.:lnpO\\"t•ring the Governrnt. nt to do that. It can h'"l Jane nndcr th~ Sugar Acquisition Act and nnc!Pr the :M0at Supply for Imperial Csc Ac1.. 1·:hidi ,,,:a:;; pc:t~<:d Ja t ''LS.::ion.

lias. E. \Y. I-I. FO\YLE;J: ~s·e pa. ,!d ~uch a prcY1;o;1on in the Sugar .Acqui·:.ition Act aEd ?. ·C' al. 1 ·):ne or t\YO blank cheque'-~ in that .Act ; c a1 . a. ked to D<." :l on·e· or h\'U clau~·e.-:1 'his Bill whic!1 ai·e l''!allv bhln'~ chequ · It is said that the Bill r, onl.' t~ be put in L.rc,' rh~rjn~~·. th~ continu­f'.l,..._·e CI t u0' pre ·f'Hl \Y:::Ll'; bllt l there any~ thing i:!.l this Bill. or in auy oCH~l' 1ncasure thL:.t v,'c L. vc paHt'rl, vrhirh dcines \;That i.<l. rne.~nt bv t~lC nhra:,,, ·• Durin:; th-.1 C8ll··

t-inuaL~O ·of the~ pr··s(1 .a~ 1Ya1·"; The "\\ ar· n1ay c1.n -~ { n fcl' L.-~·::htcf n nr t""\YCnt..~ I it C'< ntinuanf'e •J b0 lin1~ .. .:d bs tho \Yh·u Crc1t Brlh.iu dra·.-.J c-,ut, of it.·? Is t) b·_1 wb n Gl'rLLlllY r1J·r, s ouL of it'? I~ it ·.:::> b ';··:h n tl!r· .t;1fnlldt..'i'ii.;· t)lnbc.:.·s lHl\'C bccu ~~Eall qucnc~l:..·d. li.J rnEttt0r in hat c' .l1ltry rhr·y ru;'~"~ l . r: I l1light pl·C·UElO tv <}1'1 ·", a :~agg.,·bcn .. l :~ .. ·~,'-~ld c.;u~:·gejt t.ha\.wt: d1ou1d ~.(:('( pt t,h,• nd1nlt~on of the Tracrng \vith th:.) Enc ElY Act <Jf the Con1n1o1n\' alth, \Yhich n~acli;-- ~

·· ·The nrf'~ e~~~. :-:tat, uf wn1· n1ean::;, tlH' pcri<,zl' from thr• 4th day of Augusr. ~ L;.~ t~ou~and nine' hurrlrcd U.i.~d fourte·.·n. at the hour cf eleven o'clock post me'ri­d!t'Dl, according to Grt<-'lf\\,"'ich standar{! tin1e." until the i :ue of a proclan1ation" b\T th0 Governor~G.·nel'al that the war b~·tween His Maje,,ty the King and the G0rn1an En1f1C·ror and b£:t.ween His ~laje:-::t:vT thQ King and tlw En1peror of ..\.ustria, 1{ing v£ liungary, has ceased."

... \.., soon as pPaC'e is declared bPtween Great Britain and Gern1anv or betwee-n Groat Britain and . :\.ustria. then the ·war ceases so far as that ..:.:let i::- Conrt'rned.

The SECRETARY FOR :MIXES : I take it the, \VU ,. will end \Ylwn p ',,ee ie dedt' 1·ed between tho belligerent nations.

Hm;. E. W. II. FOWLES: I do not know. Gcr1nany nnd Great Brita.in 1uay declare peace, but the war may continue. \Ve do not know who t is alw<tJ of ns, and I think th~ point 'hould be cleared up. That is a SlTiall r:natter. rfht~re are fnr 1TIOl'C i1nportant 1natt01'S v. hieh have bc0n brought before us by hen. membc•re. One of those is the need fOr giving fair C'IJnpen:~ation, and the nf'ed. for paying the owner~: of D1hltworks-not in tho debDsr:ci coin 0f debenture2:, \,·hich 1uay fall to 96 or h 90-but in current, good C'oin. BY th t I J' c;1.·1 '":in at pa1·. \Vc aJl know th~ut if W(' pu~ the i:Itm{~:·,t e.t 4 per cent .. £100 at 4 per ce t'. \\otdcl drop tn· £CHI, oo that w· ·'wuld rcall~· be stealing 10 pet cent. of the Yaluc of the nwab" orks. ~.1C>ntion ha~ been macle of the fact th:tt there is no appc<.tl on the qccstion of conl­pcn., .1tion. 'rhnt will, I h,,pe, be put right in Cmnn1ittee. Linder tho n1c,,_;ure ilS it ,tands a control1Pr c.:1n be a;)pointed to any of thc<l,c n1e.zhvorkR sitnnlv bv nrochunation~ r nrlc>r tho 1'racling ,, ith the ·E,;omy Act the Colt1monwealth Govurnrncnt. before the~<" can · ppoint a controller. must >nako application t J tho High CClurt in order to 0mnro that" <'YC!'J thing is in JWrfcd m·dor. Fnder this Rill the Govcrn1rent n1aY have to deal with ;:ork>: wo:rth 1ni1lions of' pour.cls and involv­jng n1ost irnport'"'lnt right"', a1~d it would be wih' to proYide that a controller shall only be appointed after full investigation by the Full Court. There arc two clauses in the mea .:ure which might Yery ·.;-ell he omitted,

Jfral!i'01'ks Bill. il3 OCT('BLR.] 1259

.a.-. tllLY are nnnPrr ~" ary. Oue ~jf thoae clauses is clan-:z·-\ 12~ v hich g·i_ye~ grme!·al power;. to the Goycrnnwnt. The;£~ rowers are very "iclo ind< c1; a j n. nutb:vr of fact the pro­Yision f'ontai.tH~d in tlw {'::au,-o i~ really a, blunk dwquc v;~~ieh th~) Go'd_~rnlnvnt L_;_ay fill in r·: th"'Y f'~lOU"'~', c-u~l is in 1:0 v "1v nr:~ .:._ :< .. y ior <·arJ:yiL~ uut tLc purpose of t'he Bill. The other i, <l,.u'" 14, which c:d• nds the proYi<ol:~ of thi' n:n(_:.·~urn to all industrial Pntcrprif-1es. ~..\ buth r £11.etory nLty be t::_ken 0\"Cl' lr.: vroclan1- <tiun ~)V t h~· Gnvcrnnlent. 'l'h(·. stOch. of butt-er .maJ bt:' honght by the UOYC'llll11(·':t rt 1~0 l}l'!' C\:t.. nnd S,)Jr]

loc dh- 14---: .. or export' J i J Great Britain w:d .. ·_ kl a~ 20f!-;. qr 212s.

Tll,> SEL:'E'f\RY .,..OP "\Tr-T~·s · "~hnt CT l•e do,,:;~nnde~' th·~~ Su~~a1: _\-~qL~~i~itio~~ Act.

1 ~

1-Iox. E. \V. II. .Ft)\YLES: 'l'hat 1nay bt·. but is that a policy which will commend itself to the r ;nanlunity? SurelY the GoYc-rn1ncnt ~hould not :~ren fn at anv ~tin1o n:nd Htrangle an inclnstn', hut it s, '.';11' that under this 1neasuro :i( any :indu·, Gr~- is cl:i:tnbing a hill the Govcrnn::.c~nt InJ.y st"" p in anc.l put a crow­bar in the wheels ard ,top its progress. \Vhen the Governn10nt take oYer any onterpd8o they J1011ld give fair eornpenjation for it. Sup!JO'C the Gon'ri1lllPnt take oYer one of these nlPatv~:orks, run it for a couple of .l'ears, and then purchaee it, on what valua, tion vrill tho l)UrchPsing price be based? In v, couple of years these meatworks, if not run with tho greatest of care, will deteriorate considerably, That has happened in the case of the tramwct}'~, lime kilns works, and other enterpri~,0-:: in XPw South \Vale·>, and the Government haY<' bec>n criticised pretty ::;trongly in tho Pre,,') in connection with those enterprises. It is pointed out that trarnv, ay rail'· vvh:ich C'Ost £7~000 are so depre­ciate.d in ya]nn that they aTe now wo,..th per­haps only £300.

The SECRET.IRY FOR ::\liXER : The Sydney trann~;av:::. have bnen under the GoYOl'ninent for a lortg time.

Hox. E. "~. II. FO\YL:ES: I am not referring to the Sydne.v tramways. The hon. gentleman will find all the facts in oonnee­tinn with tho"' matter~ on page 16 of the "Bulletin" for 7th Oc:Cober, and they are well worth re,,dinQ;. The manager of the State in1ph:'1nent ~works in \Vestern Australia resigned, and whPn pre"ed to say why he l'csigned he vrould not reply for so1ne time. At last they dragged out of him that th~ reason was th1t he could not run the place at a 1 rofit as long as there '\as political interfere nc0 in th(~ JllU 0 H'lgt'11ont.. :: .. Heatworks may be 1·un at the l;on•rmnent stroke for t\VO or three y<•o.rs, and the plant ''ill be depreciating all that time, and at the <>:Hl of two y0ars the Gon_rnn1cnt, after haYinrr allowc':l the· plant to dcprc,,iate knowing that they \'>-_:re ~,·oin.r; to buy, 1nay co1no in and buy tho works for £Ir·n,ooo though its value Jna.y be nearlv a qnartel' of a rrdllion. rrhcre are sorne c1aus~. '-l in tho 1neanu·o Yvhich one is bound to call attrnlion to. Indeed. one wonders why they have been included in the Bill. One of those clauses contains a rather drastic provision. Cl:tU',e 18 says-

" In case of any conviction, the adjudi­c:tting court Jnay, in its discretion, order the forfeiture of all or any part of any prJperl y with re1pect to which the offcncn \Yas conunitted, or of the yaluo thereof."

If a rnanarring director or a manager com­mits an~' offence undPr this Bill the whole of

tl1c Ir:e;.,:i rk~ H!'t' Ji-lble to bP forfeited to tho Governmrnt. That~-·· carrying things too ft:r. It 1nav be; said that no Go1:·crn· '1Cnt \vill do that kii-1d of thing, but I r '11~tnnd that 110 Goyerrn11rnt ::;hovld htl Yo th,- DO\\ !~l' to do it. .:-\gai~l, 111ld direct thC 11inil3tcy'::; tttf-2nt~on te 17, vd1ic·~l §~ J--

" ~\n:'-: 1>'1' on guilt:-{ of ::tn offence agajn ,t rf1is ... A .. rt~ sha1l b~ liable to a

• 1H'!lHH.'- not CX" 8( ding flyo thousand pounds, and to be~ iulpri:·o~ ,~1 for any }'l'l'iocl !ljt t>':C'"odi~:.g· C·tlO year."

It dut>s not say that in defclult of paynlPllt the d1endcr is to be imprisonNl. bnt that lw 1nay i. :irnpri-.on~ d for hvelvo 1nontl;s 111 additict to being fined £5,0JO.

TbP SF~'RETES FOR Thiixrs: This is a :tr !nea,e: art.>, Llld p0ople ha' e to look out that the~· do not c :JntrttYeno its lHOYisions.

Hex. K \\. H. FOWLES: Even if it i>· a ·," ~d' m?asuro, -d1y should the punishn1ent be £5, "•CJ and twelYc n1onths :in hPol? I~ut, a·; jf f·h:·tt w-1; not cnouch, this Snanish inouiR1torial H1f'asure goes fUrther. N~t onh~ do;?:3 it provide that a. person [Hilty of u.~1 offence under the m0a, ure shall be liable to that double-b.1 ncllcd punishment, but it cayB that-·-

·• If StH h person is a cornpany, the incliyicJunl person i'Uiity of the offenc~. and "I ,o the managing director, or other 1nanagcr in Queensland of th8 company. shall c·Rch of them be liable to the like punishrncnt."

Tht' ~oyc-rnrncnt ar0 !Jot F,a,tisfied \Yith put­ting rh·.' .-.crretary in gaol, but rnake the nwnagirg dir,,ct.o!.~ or other 1nanager in Qnoemland liable to a like punishment.

The SECRETARY FO"' MIXES: It is all verv "ell for yon to pnt your coHStru"tion on th'e clausP. but yon rc'ad tho first part of the claw;p.

Ho!>i. R W. H. FOWLES: Tho first part of tht:- rlnu~P reads thus-

., Any person who by any act or de­fault contravene,; or fails to comply with any provision of any prorlan1ation, or delays. or ob::;tructE ~---"

It _doc-; not say intentionally; he 1na:v do it nmntentionally--

·• ~r hind0rs the doing of any act re­<f\..llrrd by any prochnnat.ion to be donC> .. whether by himself or by any other per­~on

P docs not "a v whether he knows about it or not-- •

.. ( -· \vho aid:;;, [!bets. counsels, or pro~ rui·· ~ any o~her pt~l<•:m to so contrave:-.1e ".'· fail to comply with any such provi­~Ion, or ho at+en1pt":! in any wise so to do,. shn ll bo guilty of an offence against tln" .\rt."

That is multipl: ing offences. I might refer !~o ~3-Iinist"r to a quot.ation which S·ays, 'Oftr':!C''' must needs come, bu+ woe be to

hiln fron1 \Yhon1 the ofienco <'<J,Iletb .. '' The pr·:,Yi.· ~on to y~·hirh I have referred n1ultiplies offcnc>' , and makeo the maximum penalty a filH:' cJ £5.000 with t\' .:Ive n1onths, :impri­sonment. That is going· rothcr too far, esp0·'·ially vrh:'n therr is lin ne0d for such a, provision, Clause 18 provide,, that a man may be gaoled for twdvo months without trial by a jur:.·. The GovernmEnt by th]s,

Han. E. W. II. Fowle,.]

1260 11Iearwork-Y Bill. [COUNCIL.] lvi eat-worlcs Bill.

J~ill put th<'ir pPn through :\Iagmt Charta .. the old law on \Yhi<'h thP inclividu d lilwrtie. nl EngJi hn1('ll wero fonndr-d in 1215. Seven hundrf~d year;;, after tho 1\lagna Charta re­ccivt~d its '<anetion, this Go• ernnlPnt, which d~tims to be a dL'lllOC'rat.ie Gov( r.unent. ha-~ nttackuc1 thP \;.1'1'\' foundatio!l of individual lib<wty. Thpy priwtically say to the manag· ing dirPctor or other rnanag0r of a co1npany, .. If _Y(;U do nt;t do as '''C requ1n·. you shall both lw )<'aol(•d. and '-"" will not giYe you a triai by jury." T1Ji~ i:-; goju~r bac·k to thP days bdor<' th·· time of King .I ohn. I hav0 taln~n thr troublL' to c~:py an P'(tra(·t front :\lagua Chart :1. but it is in Latin, and I do not lJl'O(Hke to read it to tlu~ IIoust'. It oav; nwct di,tinctlv that no man shall lr put in' gaol unle., cor!dcmncd on a trial be\ hi" peer~J. That is the YPry funJanH~ntal priu­cipk of Briti'h liberty, alHl :cPt thic Bill Aays. ·· \Y e are not going to ha vc trial by juric~; th0 GovornnlC'nt bv lJrocla.tnation arc> going to say that a man shall bt' finPd £5.000 and bt~ inl}H'i:-:onPU for hvel ve 1nonths." .And thi"' is a GoYr>rnlnPnt \Yhich :-a\::: it stand~ for the principln·"' c•f dernocr~,"-~v !- Surc"lv th0 Government nlight be expect€'d t,) ,stand for the purity of the b0nch ! If dt'rnocraey has donP anything during- thE' la:-;t 500 years, it ha' particulal'ly Btrugglcd to obtain a fair law for all parties n.nd to h:tvc' thP b0nch ahsolutel~Y pur<'. Yet in th~~~p d[q.·s Wl' hav0 conti nucd the pernicious principle of appointing acting judges. Surely '' measure· ~>Dntaining guch provisions drop:; far lv~lnw the ideals of any democratic Government.

The SECRETARY FOR l\IINES: Can no judg.• imprison without trial by jury"

Hox. K W. II. FOWLES: I think that under the .J ustict:s .._-\ct a br~nch can give up

·to six n1onths' irnpri,,onrnent.

The SECRETARY FOH ~/fiXES: Cctn a judo·p not give impri!:'oninent \Yithour trial b-..· jury: '

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES: Xo. The SECHLfARY FOR l\-[IXES: C·u1't he lln­

prison for contE>mpt without a trial by jury?

HoN K \Y. H. FOWLES: Th" L•.•. of con­tempt is not vcrv dear.

The SECRETAR~ FOR :\liNES: Thi< uffL•nce will abo be contempt.

lioN. E. W. IL FOvYLES: Ao a matter of fe.ct, impr!so':ment for contf:mpt depend·' t:pon _the drgmty and charo.cte;· of the judgP. ""'ny Judge who ha,, to de,cend to the usc of the w~·Jrpon of puni>hment for conten1pt of c?urt r.s scarcely capable of filling his posi­tiOn wrth due dignity and succcss. He can get the ,,arne requ[to in anotlwr way and he docs not resort to imprisonment fo{· con­tempt. l_T oweYel'. this provi,ion says that a pers?n 1:-; tr: b.; fined and itnprisoncd \Vith­out tn~l. by Jury. I do not know how such .a provrs1on !Ias ~:rcpt into the n1ca'iure, and I do not thmk rt should be retained in ib pres\nt f9rn1. Not only C'an a. 1nan be• iined and unpnsonecl for an offence under this Bill. but the Government c•an grab all his effects and sell them.

The SEC'RicTARY FOR MIXES : Do vou mean to say that the Government can d~ that?

Hox. K W. H. FOWLES: Clause 18 gives the Go,·ernment tho power.

The' SECRETARY FOR MIK'J~: It gives judge u~\~(~'~Jn~c~~~·enw { ~uurt tbe pov;~r--not the

f!!rm. Y W. H. FrJlr•lr.;

Hox. K \V. H. FOiVLES: :\-1om drun that, it enaLks a complaint to be heard by any police magistrate appointed by tho Uovcc·nmcnt. Surely that is going just -.

little beyond a fair thing. It was [5 p.m.] bad cr,ough to give the Land

Appeal Court sueh trornendou~ p·m·pr,, I hope that provision will be altert•{1. l ant not spcakiug wilrlly 'vhen I 8ay that I lJe!:eYe rnost. of the police rnagis­tratps will tn•mbln at haYing such tr<emcndous )JfJ"W('l'S forcc·d HlJOll tlH·m. I hPliC'Yt:• thf~Y will .nd-!nit that they are not capabl0 of vdt~~{lillg jt "ith anything· ]ike' i1npartiality ot ju.dgHH'nt. Therf' js one la'"t ~ugg<.>tion I woulcl me.ke b the }Iini>.tc;·. \Yuuld it not Le po~;:;;iJJp fer t11•' GovE:>rnm ·nt to gc•t all the advant:q:.!.· ,~ thc~v d0-.<re by giving· tlw!H thC' nght of u ·"='1' during the• eontinuanec of the 1,\ur·: fnf1tPad of having Hll ail·:wlute tlth· to tllt' \\Orks. f.c· right of n~cr ~hould lw sC~fficient fur their pu:·poec's. That io all thnt is· r.nken by the linperial Govt>rnnJP.!.1t., ~L~d snrPly \Y:-' tnlgbt follcnv tlwir vrisdont iu the matt<cr. I think the pastoralio,t, aud tlw uwnet,.;; of the m;-~~lt\vorkti v~ould a~~Te,· to that, and tht..\ Gov. l'nmcnt \Yon!d not have to l'Ollll1:1DrlPPl" ]H'Opt·dy 01' t~) puy for it ill

del'·fi";r•d coin. Tht>rr• if' no rca.~on v. hv nH·at­Fuik~ tihould bt: &inglcd out for such~ drasti<(? legisl~tion, {tild callr-d npon to rnake greater 'wri,c•p; than thev have ah·ca.clv made. They arc pn'pdrNl 'to malw sacrific.es. but 1 hope tlw GovernmcCit 1viil be "illing to in tro­dace tlw antf~ndmcnt~, to which I hnxe rdcrrcd

Ho!'i. B. FAHEY: The ::Vlinister in oharge of the business of the Uouncil states that it is gdting conge-,ted, and he attri­butes that to long .cpeeches. VITell, I am not g-oing to dwell ver~· long upon this Bill this aftemoon. The !Ion. Mr. Davev called attention to a vf'ry ol>jPctionable ~lausc-a Yery di·llOnC·ct one, apparently. I do not know, but I dare sav it is inserted in the Bill in pur.snance of i very old principle in common law-that all private interests, or the interest,- of individuals, must always be buhordiuatf', and. if necer~sary, sacrificed to the exigencies of the State. I rPalisc, and nobody who has nad the Bill eould do other than realise, that this is thc most drastic measure that has ever come before this Honse. In fact, it hao a very strong flavour of de:,potism a bout it. If the Bill had come ~)efore Uti two years ago, in 1ny opinion it would have scrYed the public interests -a groat deal better than it is likely to do at PL'"!nt. There was then supposed to be a ring amongst the meat companie& carrying on operations in Queensland, during wbich time they had the producer in a vice and at thPir mercy. But since the establish­ment on the right bank of the Brisbane River has begun its OJWrations. that ring has been shattered, and the owner, of cqttle and shePp in the country haYe ever since received a fair and profitable remuneration for their stock. That inst:tutiou is viewed rather with preju­rlicL' b~· a C'Prtnin clas~ in the con1munity, who really benefit Yery largely from it. That com­pany has come here and invcst,,d hundreds of ~?ousands of pounds in tlw country, (Lnd if tne Governn1ent, inr-:tcn.d of placino- obstacle"'i in the \V,1V of tht: introduction ;nd invest­ment of Capita] in QLW2ns[and, would CTI·

cuurnge it, the country would be very much more progr0ssive than it is at present.. Capital "·ill always go whero it can make a rcn';onuhle profit: and no canital c tn be jt•\ estcd in Qttcen,Ju!H1 oth(\rvoise lhun

Meatworks Bill. [13 VOT013ER.] 1'deatworks Bill. 1261

El the d<>\·dopment of its resources. But, ir.stead of encouraging the introduction of capital. as th<; Government should do, they bring legislation of this kind before Parlia­lnent, and discourage investrnent. No poh5t·.sor of capital in the world will be foolish enough-insane enough-to como here and invest his capital while \\ e have such menacing legislation as this coming to this Hou·•c. For that reason, it is to be hoped that, when the Bill getB into Com­mittee, the Minister will accept some modifving amendments and will not take it into Uommitt~:o until next Tuesday. Its provisions arc so drastic that they require very careful consideration; and I hope tho h~:m. gentlen1an in charge of tL ~, Bill will gJVo hon. nwmbes an opportunitv of study­ing it in that time. The ·han. gvn­t.lerna:n sa v~ it is a war rncasuro. "\Vhat­r:ver the i~lea of the Govcrnrnont rna'\ have lJP('ll ill C'011CP]Villg tho f:lCUSUl'C, and ua.·'HD11·

i11g the colco--~al rc::;ponsibilitics whi('h the Bill involves, I t:an onlv .~ee difwst··on'-3 ~a~ltuc and great possil1il~tiC~ of Yery srrious lllJUry to the country If tl·c Go\ c'll!mem undertake to ent0r unon this businc-3. In the near future the countrY will euffN nrv severely if the GoYcrnlH~nt do Bntcr upo~1 th:J busine~'5.

l-Ion. A. IIrxcl-:ICLIFFE : You are -a pe:-:.3iinist.

Hm .. B. FAHEY: I am not a pe•.,imis'. l ha.ve the grcatP·"l faith in the lJ0SJibilities of this couJ:try, in its re.__ uperative nower::, nnd in iL _. fu.tnn:. Bnt lPgisL,tion 1'ucl1 as we h-a,ve harl recPntly brought before~ this House will P.'·cn nt Queensland securing an influx of cap1tal v;hen good f3C'USCJTIS return. That is what I am afraid of: and now the han. gj-=- at1Pn1an tells nw this is a ,, :; r nte".-tdue. I do not know that it was proclaim·2d to be ~ J.r ;ncL,;,uro \rhcn jt \Vas fir,:;t introduced Irl anoL_lcr place.

Tho SECRETAHY FOR :Ylr:-:Es: You arc not n;ppo'<Pd to know what happens in the other llou,e.

Hoor. B. FAHEY: Certain!~-, \\e are surposed to know what happens in the other House; but it was onl:v a! the last xn_on1ent, w~e.n the Uovernm. nt were severely critlclsed for rntroducuv:: such n lllLlsure that they d:'c)ared it to -be a. war nH.c1mre: and the :Munster no" confirms that state­ment. Gr .ctitu,le, like charity, cover. a multi­tude of sin,;.-political sin,; in this ca~.e­and no o~w .in .this Chamber will object to the B1)l If 1t IS a :··ar measure, although they nught try to wh,ttle its severity down a little in. Committcf. \Yo c m never rep 1y in ~~ustraha all that Er!gland ha~ dono for Es. 'I he~·o are vcr:r few m ~\ustraha to-day who relthse to tlw full what >Ye 01re to England­(hcar, !war !)-and whatever we in Australia can giw to Englnnd-if·it were the last drop of our blood, if it were the last shilling we por,,c, ·-in her present dilemma we should r;inl it to her. (H car, hear !) I had in­tended to criticise tho Bill a great deal n1ore ~''"'vcrely and at greater length this afternoon, than I have dono, but I have re­frained for that rea.<on. I think it is better !h,:>t the C~uncil <hould allow the Bill to go 1nto C '}rtlnuttcc, •.vhcre \Ve <'{:tll 1nake jt 1norc workable, and where its provi·•ions can be made more in <>mformitv and in harmonv with fair >Clc,aling; ''"h,~rG it can be- rna dO mom workable in detail than it is now aPd where its scope for extravagance c'l'n he eu_rtailed. To my mind there is not a clause m tho Bill in which po,;.<.ible

cx:travagauct• is not inherent. Extrava~ g:~ncc~ n1ay r'll"'tH' fron1 tho inefficiency of the <·c,ntroller. It n1a.v a<"Crue fl·orn thP \vant <:: tact on the p.c~rt of the n1anagers of works und<'r tlw Bill; and it will f'r•rtainly and inevitably aecruo frorn the sense of irre,ponsibilih that is always t•ngcnder<'d b} divided authority. It occurs to me that there is scarcely any necessity fOI' this Bill at aiL The Government have sufficient power resened to themselves, as the Mini·tor said thi> afternoon, in the Sugar Acquisition Act, and the Meat for ImpNial 1.'3es Act, which will enable them to do a. great d,,a] of what this Bill is intended to acc·Jmplish. 1'he Government ,_an e~..nnrn:,nd<A~r tho l11(~at, \vhen it is pre­v::trf'd, at a fair, hon0st, and remunerative price to the prodncer-11 price that is fair to the Imperial authorities, to this State, and to tho owners of the meatworks. If the Govcrmrwnt l'l:flli .c that the owners of any n1cab~- drks 'P-en~ nol doing ,,~hat in reasoi1 th<'y mir;ht be ecp: :·i·cct! to do to carry out thfl1r shtue of the cor:;t-ract, then under the Acts I have mC>ntione·d, they could intervene nnrl t:1k{ full chal'ge themselYes; but tmrcly it is unthinkaLle that the owners of such valuaLle works n· we· ha'e in Queensland

preSt:""llt, kno\Ying the re:5:1onsibility th0y ould incur, wou:d think of doing anything

but their du'r to the counb":. Thev are surPly <iS pab:iotic a~, any other peoPle in Quc-en,,land, and they realhe ·what the conse­qncm ~ ' W{)nld '>e if the Gave: ument stepped in QlHl tool·;: posscS''.ion of thPir \vorkR now in tho conditions pruYailing. ~o c:lttle are available, and no cattle arc likely to be available for the next threa months, or for aught '\YO knO\".- for •,Jnle years yet. I an1

very plc.,,,rcl to ht d' from tho :'11inister that the Governnwnt have no intention of taking pe~scf:···ic·u of the llll'at~vo!·ks. Still, thL v ha vP ·dw po\Yc·r to do so ullllor this Bill tf c·,mrJelled to.

'l'lw SEC'HU.\RY ron ~·Irxr:s : Tho power is theN·, but I t'1ink thNc will be no nece ... Jits to pxcr{ ~ ~;e i L

Ho::. B. L\IIYY: Quite so; but if they did c-xerci,.· '·nch a power, it would entail a .. so1 ions loss on the country. I have no objection t{) the Bill going into Committee, bnt I hop•o th~'t the Minister will be prepared tn accept reasonable amcndm"nts. - It is 'GVC're Bill, and there arc plenty of openings to tore it down in a fair and scmible wav in Committ0e. I hope the House will p<:<~oed in d{)ing that. -

HoN. l'. 1\IUHPHY: One remark which dropppd from tlw han. ;··f.'ntleman who has ju·' c,ct down -.ecms to me ab,urd. The hon. g-l•ntlcman cxprc,cscd the opinion that then• i~ no nc<~e,sity for this Bill at the pr<·cent hme. I would point out that there is such a rdeae:>:lre in operation in Great Britain.

Han. 'I'. O'ScLLn AN: It is on different lines.

Ho;,, P. MUHPHY: I know that, but nnder that melbLU'e the Government of Great Britain have similar po\\~crs to those that ''ill be c;mforrcd njJOn tho Government of Qm;cnsland by this Bill, and they find that tho~e powers are ne( essarv. There is also a sirnilar rn0'lsuco on thO statute-book of the Ccmn,onwc alth of Australia, and the Gov>.::r:nment aro putting it in force.

He. 1. B. FAHEY: I did not say that; I said the Go_v~rnment had pm'< 0r under the Sugar Acrnumt1r,n .'\ct to do rtll that this measure will empower them to do.

HurL P.l!! urphy.]

1262 Elections Bill. [COUXCIL.] Elcciions Bill,

Hox. P. :MURPHY: If a subj"ct of one of the powers now fightiug against the En1pir0 \VU"4 living in this countrv and had the control of largp works, anc.f 'used that Lontrol in a way ·" hich ''as detrimental to tlw interesb; of the Empire, would it not be a gcod thing for the Governn1ent to have lJO',·,-pr to step in and take po.3'·f·,,sion of thos•.} works'!

Hon. A. G. C. HAW'r!IOR:<r: Quite so.

Hox. P. MURPHY: Well. that is what th:s Bill propose;. A German firm in Mel­bourne had the control of certain metals in Australia, bnd it was found necessary that the Commonwealth Government· should have po\\er to dPal with th-,t firm. The Govcrn­Iuent of Queemland do not propose to exercise the po-wers \t hich 'vill be conferred upon them by this Bill, unless it is necessary ~"J do so; hut. it is a ~ise thing to give them those powers m that fhey may be avail­able in case of necessity. The same kind of thing has be~n don•' ;;) France and in the Commonwealth of Australia, and probably in avery State in Apstral1a. Why then should we not do it in Queensland? Are the Government likely to single out good citizens of Quoen5l~nd \';ho have inYcsted their capital in. mcatworks, and pcr,ecute them just for the mere plea sure of persecuting them or because th0v arc ca pitalibts? I do not think so. I do not for one moment believe that the present GoYcrnment would lend themsolyes to su:::h a proceeding. It is necessary for the Goyornment in all part< of the Empire to have exhaordinary powers at the present time in order that they mav be able to deal with conditions as thev arise. The British Government ha v·· taker1 such powers, tho French Government have done the same, tho Commonwealth Govern­ment have alw taker; those powers, and all those Governments have exorcised the pO"\\->?r-' conferred· upon t.hr'nl bv Parlian1ent. and it may be nc,c(· •"ll'Y for tlie Queensland GovernnH'nt to do ''o abo.

Hun. B. F.\HEY: Kot on the basis of this Bill.

Ho:<r. P. M'CRPHY: How the Empire ,,, ith which ... ,~e arc at \Var has looknd ahead ~nd p~·opared hor•·df fer the preFent strup-gle 1~ wull known to the whole world, and how do we know that thev do not control S·Jme works in Qu•~cnsland or other narb of Aus­tralia? I do not know that such is the ca•.e, but v e arc all arc that they are con­trolling industri'"' in the United Sbtes of l\_n1ericL-·tht; t they hc_n'0 paid enormous '~-urns ol. rnoney to n1en to -';\J out to AmeriC':i, and use their control of industrie-;:; in fuyour of the nation they represent ; and hov-1 do we know tlc:1t they haw· not got control of ooue "-'arks in I3risl:::me or other parts of (jueensland !' I contend ! hat it is necc,sary for the Govprnmc,·lt here> to have extra­or-ctman powurs. and I believe that thev will u·,c tho:e [;.)~,·er £,:r]y and with discret'ion.

Que'ction-'11hat the Bill be now n:ad a sc(·oncl ti::.11e-rn:t and 1 <.t~FH:d.

Tho committal of tho Bill was made an Order of tho Da:; for to-morrow.

ELECTIONS BILL. SEcOXD Rt:,\DI!':'G.

Thn RECRETA tlY FOR :vriNES: I am a~vBr~/hnp in li,~Ying the scc_ond rea0ing of tLe _1_~.ections !.Jill 1 v_m 1ntrodumng an important rn0r.sure to the Chnmber. An Elections Rill is nhvays an imnortant measure. The unfortunate thing is tl1at we

[Han. P. Murphy.

:-.c•cul 1W\'Pl' to g"•t to the: end of introduciug Ekc1 ~o1u Bill~. Each f:lt:ecccding GoYcrn­::..t2n~- bring-:-; it1 a Bill to an1o~:,J the electoral la '\\":-.. 1 1lH' l)O]i('y uf the Labour ~Party ·who r~l'l1 in lHHYl'r at thu prcs0nt ti1ne has ahvays been v-ery cl(wr as LH as the e:c{'toral laws are c0nclrned. \Ye haYe ah\-avs considered thai_. GYCI·y il;an and WO.tlUD "\~·ho is C'lJed rq_h)Il to 'contribnt-• to the taxation of th0 country should. haYe a Yoice in the choosing­of tho legislators who make the laws of that tountry. Unfortunately that ha., not alway:; been the ca,,:', either in Qm,ensland or in other Stah·s of Australia. but it must be admitted that a few years back the GoYern­niont of th-~t day-a coalition Government­attemnte,l to illleraliso the electoral law as regard:; the franchise. But during the lao;t year or ~o we ha YC had a Govern­ment i11 power who haye done all they possibly could to restrict the franchise. I '"·ell relncn1be1· that a fe\-v yoa1.·s ago, \vhen the Coalition G01·ernment was formed, an Act was paosed giying adult suffrage to the r"eoplo of Queensland. \Vo have had •everal ""'ending Acts ''ince that time introduced by Liberal GoYcrnn:ent", which have tended to whitt](, away many of the privileges granted by that Act. and to make it alrnost inlpos;;;ib}e for a certain class of por­"ons to qualify for a vote. I know from my D\Vn experin1ce as n :no1nadic \V0r ke1· in the bush, for I was one myself for a good many ''ears, the dif!ieulty thPre >Yas in getting one's 1.ame on the electoral roll, and keeping on when one did get on. \Vhen I followed tho occupation of the shearer, if I sheared for five \V<'l'ks or a couple of months in one p1ac~ and then shifted to anothe1· loc:tlity but did not leave the electDrate, my name was bken off the electoral roll. I could never find out who took it off, though, of course, I know whv it was clone. That has been the e"Cpcrience of thousanc!R of noma(lic \Yorkers who follow the occupation of shearers, cane­outt. n, and har,-est<'rs, and have by the necessitiee of their callingo to be continually 1noving front one district to another. 1v1any of tho.'·'" men who arc natiYes of the State a1'd who havD neYOi' left Queansland h;tve not got a vot." even to-day, simply because of tho restrictive franchi:>e under which we are lJ.boudng. Tho .~ ct which \vas passed by the Coalition GoYernment ha•, be·en amended in .nch way as to limit the qualifications for enrolment. 'I'he amending Act of 1914, which was pas''"d • at tho instiga­tion of tho Farmers' party in another place ju' t before the last elections came off, tended sU~l i:ur~-~1\"'r to lirnit the opportunities of the no111adic \Yorker~ to qualify for enrohnent. I suppose they expelled that b:· so doing t11c.v would <?11'-U!'G the return of their party to po,~.·er, but. notwithstanding the restrictive franchise C·Jntnined in that .:-\ct, tho present Govc_·nn1cnt ,-\·0ro r1 turned to po.,j er by a 1 · tCO majority. \Yo an~ alv;,·a~\·s tr:·ing to "dvi · o your:_g n1en in tho citir3 t~nd towns to go out i'·to tho country, but it is v2ry <.:ifHcuit to get n1nn:.-- cf the1..:1 to ~o into th·3 c·cuntry, be0.1u ·e they will be diefranchi,,ed if tiL'' do, thcnp:h there is employment for them there; and that is "·hy there is a C'·Jng£ stion of ttnmnpl.)ycd in tho large cities. There is not 1nuch 0nc JUragcmont for Lnyone to lcwo the ''ty. if by lc;. • i,-,g- lho city and g:Jin~ intJ the (" unh·v to'' ork he is g.llng to be plo_r<'d on the san10 plane as an asiatic or blackfollow and be di-.franchiscd.

Ron. T. M. HALL: They don't attach that much value to the vote, dD they?

Elections Bill. [ 13 OCTOBER. J: Election8 Bill. 1263

The SECRETARY FOR ::YIINES: They ~do I doubt vPrv lnuch if anv one in the

itics attache~ more value to a "vote than do th<> ,.·orker:< in th0 \Y e•t. The:· are keen student,~ of political eco1:..orny, and arc as 1vell up in that subject and in public quec­tions <Tenerallv as most peoplE' in large C'idcs, and tlu;y can fee.l being disqualified a" olectors YPl'\? acutelv. \Yhcn I was a shc·arer the onlj~ way in' whith I could keep my name on the roll was by writing to the

·dectoral regi,trar every time I shifted from <'ne shed to another, and informing him that I was lea :·ing the cheJ where I was then working and going to another :·heel in the ·oame electoral district. At last he said to me, "It's all right, Mr. Hamilton, I know that you are remaining in the eledorate." But it should not· be necessarv for a.ny qualified person to have to t:d<e ·such steps iu order to retain his name on the roll. I have here a brief precis of the provisions of the Bill, which I shall read to the Huuse.

SilF'e the parent Act was pas·-·ed [5.30 p.m.] in 1885 many electora1 Bills have

been submitted to Parliament. The Bill now introduced represents a con­solidation of the existing electoral law, to­gether with certain amendments having for their objects tho liberalising of the franchise for the people. The measure is intended to remoyo certain li1nitations and restrictions which under the pre,cnt Acts hinder the <0xercis0 of the franchise by the electors of .all classes who are entitled to enjoy it. I believe that the Bill is such as to receive ready_ end~r;emcnt by the majority of elec­tors m this Stat,•. As hon. members are familiar with the existing electoral law which is largely embodied in the Bill, and: -doubtless, haye made themselves acquainted ,,-ith other details in the measure, I do not 1Jroposo to do more than b1·iefl v review the :Bill. It is divided into eight parts. Part I. deals with preliminary matters-the title of the Act, the reneal provisiono, and the inter­protation clau~e. Part II. contains the ach1ini·<trative provisions. Part III. deals w_ith the qualifications and disqualifications of electors. Part IV. provides for the pre­par,ttion and printing of the rolls and the regist_ration of names. Part V. contains the ma,chmery for conducting elections. Part VI. refers to the publicntion of remits and return of writs. Part VII. embodies what ure cal!Pcl the supple•nental provisions; and Part VIII. deals with the Elections Tribunal. The IEain d:ffcr-:Ec_·":\ between tho e·~isting l:cw and the proposed law arc to be found in Parts III. and IV. I+ i, dr"irod to e .. tend the fulle:,t ri,hi:s of citizenship to qualified females by permitting of their ole •tions a.s parl~r,mcn+ary repref{Jntatives. This, after aiL '.s but a corollar.v of adult suffrage; it is prov:_clccl for under the Commonwealth law, .and .'t'· adY:J<~t ,3 ~re found in. o.ll politic:cl parhcs. I th1nk b1G mC'11bers 111 tho o+her Cha,lnber a:o r-,_ther 8eHi· h in tbis nwttor, becousp. whJ!e th,•y make provision for ladies beLommg memb0rs of the A<·•·8mbly, they a':'pcar to deny thsm the right to sit in this Cno.mber.

Hon. T. M. HALL: I think they ought to have seats here.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I think so, too. If they are allowotl to sit in one 9h,,nber they OUfht to be allov. eel to sit m the ot~or. If the law }s altered making that po~,,ble, I do not thmk I would have any difficulty in getting a quorum. Take a

lady like Daisv J !'rome. If she chose to throw up vaudeville and go into politics, whv should elw not do eo'! If \YO had a D:~!sv ,J crome in this Chamber. I am sure WC' \~:ou1d npyer .,~.-ant a quoru1i1.

Hon. P. MrRPHY: \Viii you acc"•pt an ''mC'ndnwnt in th:,t direction? (Laughter.)

Tlw SECRETAHY FOR ::i1INES: Yes, I will. (Renewed laughter.) I do not sec why we should not have the same good things as the other House. There are many people who be:ieve that women have a right to ,jt _in. the Legislative Assc"nb!y; and, if a maJority of tho electors in a constituencY think that a woman would do better than a male C'dcclid·,te, they should have the right to elect hpr.

Hon. A. HIXCHCLIFFE: Thf y haye the right to elect her to tho Commonwealth Parlia­ment.

Tho SECRETARY FOR MINES: That is so, and one ladv contested a seat in the Commonwealth Parliament, although she was not returned, and I understand that another is to contest a ,,cat at the n0xt Commonwealth election:,.

Hon. F. T. BREXTKALL: Does not the fact that the electors haYo not vet elected one show that they arc wiser tlutn the men who pacs~d the Act?

The SECRETARY FOR :ME\ES: I -do not know. l am not one d those who think that men have a monopoly of all the common >enee m thL <''>mrmmity. !:\either am I one of those who think that the millennium will arrive v;lwn \.Y01nen are allO\':ed to sit in Parliament. At the 'cuw time, l think the avc·a6·c "\VOinan is just as inte1Ugent as the ave1e ge man. Sho has to obey,- tho laws cqlu,1UJ'" ,vith 1nan; if tho Ja~>: s are bad, I think she suffers more from them than man· a2id I do not Sf"-' \'? hy she should not b~ placed on tho •2ame plane as man. I suppose there are few men who do not think their ',' bet' or halves'.' •vorth consulting when thay are contemplatmg . emhurking vn any now undertakinv,. A provision h,.cs been included Ill the Bill to Oll'l ble an agreem2nt to be made with the Co1nmonv, ea1th GoYOTll1111o'nt for the preparation and use of a joint roll. 'l'hat is clause 18. Under clauen 5 a Com­monw~alth offitd' may bo appointed to adminbter the Act. Compulsory enro(ment and. t~o~pul 1··•Jry voting-'.·, hirh fire the fitst <l

1vtH···" o.L elc:ctors-Hre 1~rovided for, as under

t.J Jegrslauon pa%ed oy the late Govern­m<'nt. _'fh{ cnntii:god Yote : .. nd tho pro­vi"3io:· 1n t .10 cx1shng law for the proh:ction of f-n electoud rjghts of so;·l.i.o:::s on active sen ice have been 'etaincd. Cl 'Lil'·'" 10~ uuthori·,'2J the n1akinrr c·i regulations enabling .su.rL ,~oltlicr- to C'{C'lCisc the righc to vote. i\ ll clcctiol' are to he held on the same -d.1,y vvhk~1 l11lht 1~ ~ a Sc..t~urc-1ay. Tho P1~ncipai El "toral R0g .;trar ·will rwrionn tho duties of Princip .. l Electoral Ofricer until another a;Jpoi:r!·.:Iont is mJ.d.:. Provj.;;ion is n1:1de fl-O tLat a l~.t:puty rnay act in his al:-sen,_;e. R.eturning ofiice:·s, pre ~iding officers and polling place) ,,;ill be appoi~~tcd as at p{·es~nt. Tho q·1<1lific.,tiors of cdector; "ro that he o~ _he must b,·, twent;~-one years o: 'f' gc, ,·· nd, if a natural b·~·rn fuDjcct, mu3t h:1ve six months' F':..;idenc·J in Au:~tra1ia, three 1 '10nths' resi~ denC'o in Que('n"'"l:~nd, and one month~s resi­dence in the electorate. In the case of TJJ.tur.aJi;:;ecl subjects, th( qualifications are the same exco:1t that residence is computed from the date of the naturali·,.ation. The dis­qualification of inmates of public charitable

Han. W. Hamilton.]

1264 Electiotbs Bill. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment.

:institution::; is ren1oved, a.nd, under clause 19, there will be no block vote from such inmat.c>e, a~ the votes will be distributed to the districts in which the voters lived or were enrolled immediately Jnior to their becoming inmaks. That means that we are going to give the inmates of Dunwich what the Commonwealth have already given them. There are many people in Dunwich who were very estimable citizens of the State long before they were forced to enter into that institution. There are muny old men down there with whom I worked in Western Queensla.nd years and year, ago-good citizene, but unfortunate in more wuys than one.: and in their old age they have had to go to Dun\vich. Son1o of those men have Geen pioneers who have helped to build up rhe St.1tc. Speaking metaphoricaJly, they have .. blazed the tra. k." 'rhcy \vere out in the "\V,'stcrn COLmtry in the early r!ays before there were any railways, and when the black::; WOl'{' there. There are n1en in Duu­vich who \Vcre wealth;, yeHs ago, but t:nough n J fault of their own tlwy have had to cntGl' Jlunwich. It is rather hard that we should toll those men in their old age that, h("'iY\U2,l they have zone to Dun\vi,t.:h, they must imfeit all their citizen rights. \Yhile the.t·e 1nlght be a strong objection to giving tho imncltes o£ the in .titution a block vote in one e!cctoratf', l do not s•·c that ther·" can !Je an> objc.__iion at rJ.Jl to granting thun a vote in the c 'oetorates in \Yhich they lived before tbc'v h,•vanw in1na.tcs. In that '""Y.UV their Yotes will be distributed throughout tho State. (Hear, hear!) There will be an <:dl!~unl roll of tho nan1c'1 registered on tho 31st Dl'eembcr in each year. Supplemental or qua·L•rl;: roils will bo printed as early as possihle after L' .. \pril, 1st July, and 1st 0"-'tobE:: in en,, h ve r. ProYision is aLto 1nttde for additior ,1J '.)L~ppk111011L1l rolls, conb1,iniEg r~arnr q regi~~tercrl f'ince the .annual roll or 'l''<lr'c: rly roll aHl np to the last <'a;c' for regi,tering nam<''.• which will be the day of the issue of th<:' writ. These rol:s nwy be typcw2-htcn~ if thr re is not tinw to print them. If tho <lisb·ict is divided, the rolls will he ".divisional rolls." The rolls are to be kept and compiler! by the elFctoral r•'gioa­trars, who will trans.: 1it them to the Prin­cipal Electoral Officer. It is proposed that this officer shaH keep on the card system an alphalwtiC'al roll for tho wholo St.ato. Tho card will show the el:ctoral history of every voter, and thP adoptwn of the card system sh0uld ensuro accurary in the ]H't':Jaration and reviFlon of rolls, \vhich, in fnturr, •Yill he performed hy tho electm .. d rogiBtrare, instead of b~· tho r ·g·istration and revision <'oucts. Objections. accompanied by a fee of 5s., may be lo.1god against the retention of numr·> on rolls; the fco is forfeited if tho rc~ris1rar finds the objection is frivolous. T~1e 'rcg·istrar rau -,t Bcrvo a notic-e on thn per•·on 'c·bjected to, and h<' may diomiss, without such notice, bad objection<. The time limit for answering objections is ext0nded to forty-two d 'lys, experience having sho•<·n this to be ncces .. arv in respect of remote parts. An award, not exceeding £5. m<ty ho gr,ntNl to +hP person objf·d<>d to if the rc)!.·i<trar thinkB tho objection frivolous; the n'1joctor may be sued for the amount a.warded. HithPrto objectors were required to lod!Se 11 fer, of 5s. with their objection, but I know nH'n "\Vhos,., nan1f'';; vvere objectr,(f_ to who were n' ver nc,tified of the fact, mel th-·v nev< r <'ould finrl out who ohjeeh•rl to thei~ no,mes heine\ on the roll. anci tho flr .. t thev knew flf the maUd wa' \vhen their names

[II on. TV. H arm'lton. '

wore. takeu off the roll. This largely appliea to men following nomadic occupations, as I did myself for a good many years in the· West. I know tho light 'that men had in those duys to got a vote. The registrars of births, deaths, anrl marriagPs are required to furnish month! v returns o·; deaths to the electoral regist;·ar;;, and in the month of' August a list of murriages. The Comptrollcr­G c'neral of Prisons will furnish monthly rctun>s of persons convicted of offences which disCJwdify, or may disqualify, such persons. The di,;quulificatious are set out in clause 11. The existing postal voting system is. modified. There will be two systems of absent voting-·(1) for electors who will not b" in any elector.tl district on polling-day;. and (2) for electors who aro absent on J•Dilinc;-<tay from the electoral district for which they are enrolle·rl. Sick persons may voto by po,t. An elector absent from his <'lcctorai di;;trict on polling-day muy vote at any po!ling-pl(lC'C whirh i:3 not a polling-place for his district. If a man if likely on polliug-daY' to be a long distance from his {:isrricr, he 1nay go to the returning officer or lH'fv~iding officer of such district .and vot0 l:cforC> 1•"',1Ying. lie n1:1y also Yote contin­gcCJt]y. In Quecn·land there arc• thousand~ of pc0])lo who arc continually 1novi:ng about. and v.-ho nwv not be in th:?ir own <'lPrl:orate;:­Dc:l poll:inv,-c.fay. -\part frou1 BheU.rer-3 and :)eopie who follow bush occupatione, there

· r,n, lmndrc,ds of conuner(•ial travellers and bn:;::iness people whose hu~,inc-.-;s c?n1pPls thetn to Lc uwa;, from home on election day.

Hon. E. W. II. FowLES: Would not the lH)Stal Yote nH'ct their caso?

The SECRETARY FOI~ :Yli:'oiES: Yee, but W•c have h~d a good deal of experience of postal voting, and 1.hHt cxperi•'1W•e has not been sati:,fa~tory, and \YO \vant to be very guarded in any s:y,:tein o: voting by pDf:t thar we may adopt. Sick persons may vote by post. It is known that by the legislatioa passc·d in 1913 and 1914 many thousands of nlcctors were deprived of their right to exercise the franc hi ,e. This Bill, by tim remo-. tll of undesirable restrictions, goes a lonO' '\V,,:v to\VQrd" securing· a broad and <·qu'ltable" franchi,e-features which are essen­tial in tho electoral law of any democracy. Tl' 1t is a bric' summary of the provisions of tho BilL \\'c want to make our electoral law ~" up-to-elate 11•3 ''·" can, and to bring it into conformity as much :,s possible· with tho Commonwealth Ia'"' \Ve believe that this is a just Bill, and that it is neces>ary. I have much pleasure in mm'ing that the Bill he HO ,\' re,J. d a Be•2ond tirrw.

IIos. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: I beg to move tlw adjournment of the debate.

Quc;tion put and pa"sed, The resumption of the debate \Yas made an

Order of th(• Day for to-morrow.

ADJOUR::\'ME~T.

The SECRETARY FOR :YIIXES : I beg to mu,-e that the Council do now adjourn. The fir;~ bu,;incss to-morrow will be tho S( con d. rc:J.ding of the EJcr:tions Bill; u.Her thai- ~he second rcadLTlg of th,J Too\vong Park Bill. When we finish that, we may be ablt> tn put. the l\letropolit:tn SD\Ve-rage \Yorkers' A ward Bill through Committee.

Question put and pasEcd.

The Council a.cijonrned at fifteen minute'' ta 6 o'clock.