kurmatt wrote:Disc Hoss wrote:I'll get back to you, Kurmatt. Got a list of "free" veggies someplace on my computer. Theright ones allow for ample intake.

Best,DH

kurmatt wrote:I see that DH mentions to eat a lot of veggies but doesn't this conflict with staying below30g CHO? Or are the veggies considered a fiber and not counted?Matt

Hoss-Appriciate it.I find it difficult to find a comprehensive book or list of the nutritional breakdown offoods. Ever try to find out how many carbs are in a piece of sushi? Pretty tough.

kurmat, basically any vegetable that tastes like putrid ass is gonna be allowed on thisdiet. this is the shit you will mainly use i would think...

1.spinach2.any other really dark leaf3.tiny bits of broccoli and cauliflower4.asparagus(this shit is so ridiculously expensive)5.shrooms(tiny bits)6. cucumber

thats it basically(IMO of whast you would be using often)...although you have the weirdass vegetables that no one will ever eat...but think shit like collard greens, hearts ofpalm(taste like putrid ass), romaine.

Owen70, thank your lucky stars for two things.

1. I'm eating CHO right now and they have a sedative effect.

2. You're in HS and I suppose I was as much of a "shotgun mouth" as any teenager. Orso my father-in-law states. ;-)

You are correct in one thing. You don't understand the "hypocritical" stance of myselfand the originator of the diet. You keep the CHO this low NOT to attain ketosis, butrather to drop glucose levels low enough to trigger significant fat burning AND proteinsparring. If/when you ever fully adapt to the diet then ketosis is NOT a reality anymore.Want to know what happens when I whiz on a ketostick? Nothing. My blood glucosehovers around 90-95. Ketosis is nowhere to be found. Since I have ADAPTED, my bodyis no longer in the metabolic purgatory of ketosis. With the large quantities of CHO weingest on the load and the minimal daily value, we keep just out of ketosis. We're like aplane skimming the ground. We don't land, we hover.

Dan "I'm wrong 99% of the time" Ducahine demanded NO CHO on mon, tues, and wed(?). He was focusing on forcing you into a rapid ketosis condition by eliminating ALLCHO, with concommitant liberal usage of VS and Metformin to plummet blood sugar.Now what Duchaine did NOT realize is that even at this rate, once the person adapted,

he would use FATTY ACIDS, and TRIGLYCERIDES as the primary fuel sources. But thenMauro says this is to be used as a lifestyle eating pattern, not just a 6 week diet solutionfor a contest. We are wave cycling here. That is why Doc D calls it a cyclical diet, ormacronutrient cycling, NOT a CKD.

The focus on ketosis is like having me point at something while you just look at myfinger.

You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays. This allows for an enhanceduptake of both glucose and amino acids into the muscle. It is preferentially shuttled tothe muscle after this scarcity it has experienced. We use this to trick the body intoaccepting more than normal amounts of various substances to trigger an anabolicresponse. Here AGAIN Duchaine has his focus wrong. He thought that the aboveconditions leading to "kinetic cellular expansion" was the golden boy. NO. That is a realbenefit that has some value, but the real money is the HORMONAL cascade that thecyclical pattern sets in motion. To Duchaine it was all about ketosis->glycogensupercompensation. To Di Pasquale it is all about adaptation->hormonal maximization.Once you adapt then ketosis is not attained and neither should it be a goal.

This whole fixation that causes people to miss the big picture reminds me of the trainingto failure controversy. It's not necessary and should not be sought as it increases CNSdemand. You can get "near" failure and still hit the necessary MU's to derive the effect.Both of these dogmatic "needs" (training->failure and ketosis) are doing nothing buttaking a good observation and coming to a bad conclusion.

Anyway, ketosis sucks after an initial break in period. It is counterproductive to BB's andPL's whose activity is centered around anaerobic exercise that is fueled by glycogen.

We drop down "close" to ketosis where we have the full benefits (once adapted) of usingfat as THE premier fuel source. During this time the body holds stored glycogen like a fatcop does a donut. We use it ONLY for weight training purposes. During this time insulinis low/healthy, thus it continues to do it's job of nutrient transfer but won't be able todeposit anything into fat very easily (unless you eat a freakin' cow). Amino acids aresent to muscle as normal BUT and here is the real purpose, testosterone levels areelevated, GH is elevated (as it often operates in an antagonistic fashion with insulin),glucagon is bumped up for fat loss (not too much so), and neurotransmitters that allowfor alertness are in ample supply and used. We have an anabolic cocktail going on rightthen NOT ketosis. The value of the ketostix are about as much as the urine you spill onthem at this point.

Then as we load we derive the benefits of the mother of all insulin surges and haveanother fascinating ADAPTATION phenomenon happen, we get BOTH insulin and GHelevated during at least the first 24 hours of the load. Yup, that's right. Doc D has foundthat for the first day of loading at least, you are continuing to burn fat at a higher thannormal rate and we can actually have GH and insulin working in tandem. This is normallynot a possibility. The benefit and purpose is to wave your CHO to cause a hormonalcascade that allows for anabolic action during BOTH the low carb phase and the uptakephase.

Try to offer comments and assistance instead of argumentative jabs. When you don'tunderstand something then say so, don't come across as a jilted authority, bro. You'll betaken more seriously and you'll show you have a normal respect for the opinions/experiences of others. You can question me all you want, but you should familiarizeyourself with the Metabolic Diet by Di Pasquale before you implicate him as?hypocritical?. What you?ve been is HYPER critical You?ve got too much Lyle andDuchaine in your understanding.

This is the Anabolic Diet thread. We want growth. It is the best cutting diet too, but the

key is muscle growth. We want the best of both worlds. The AD is just that.

Best,DH

If you are familiar with BO then you'll notice that Duchaine wanted a standardbodybuilding workout on Mon for 1/2 body, then tues for the other 1/2. Then you dickeraround on wed, thurs, and then Friday began the circuit. The whole BO program wasbased on poor conception and application of training protocols. You are hitting abodypart once a week with any real effect then you sit in a metabolic/training dead zonewaiting for the all important 2 hour marathon depletion workout. Blind to the max, andagain DanD was seeing the finger instead of what the finger was pointing at. Di Pas'swork "stimulated" DanD to do BO and he screwed it all up. It was classic Duchainestealing the ideas of others, not understanding the mechanisms fully, and thenpresenting himself as an authority. A guy who never had any success in weight training.Now, I think Dan was funny and entertaining, but I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade.

You do not need to waste time waiting all around for the grand depeletion. We are BB's,PL's, SM's, etc... We shouldn't and don't need to make a program overhaul for adepletion workout when it will happen anyway from your standard training.

I have said, and this will be the last time I beat this dead horse so help me, that IF youwant to monkey around with this then do two things:

1. Make it in addition to your split. It should be an addendum not the plot.

2. Do a Westside/Waterbury AR workout. This will facilitate recovery and benefit byutilizing a proper intensity load.

My point is that it is fine to do but DanD built BO all around a heavy workout at thebeginning of the week and a pointless, no growth 2 hours waste of time that was ofminimal use and ultimately unnecessary and made it an integral part of the "success".

The OTS program that followed along with the commercial introduction of the AD was aconjugate periodization scheme that allowed for high frequency, sufficient load,controlled volume sessions that actually BUILT muscle and were more than sufficient todeplete glycogen.

The diet, once you've adapted, removes all of the need for focus on ketosis, rebounding,etc... Duchaine saw the "small" picture and suggested the BO for a quick fix. Mauro is aexpert who has more credentials professionally and academically than Ducahine hadperverse statements.

BB, don't mistake my tone. It just gets tiresome to hammer the same things and mymood is sour anyway. For this I apologize. It's not directed toward you. Check out someof the earlier posts and the one I sent out for Owen70.

Best,DH

You'll make the shift either way. Serious cardio will simply have adverse effects on yourmuscle building goals and is often foregone for the use of HIIT. Cardio can be usedjudiciously for help with fat loss. Again, one needs to utilize a sufficient loadingparameter (ie intensity, speed) before an activity moves from aerobic to anaerobic. Theanaerobic work will give you the depletion. My rock bottom thougts? It's not worthagonizing over trivialities. If you keep all variables in your life the same, you'll reach

adaptation and subsequent levels of depletion that will allow for supercompensation.Anything else is mind candy. In the end, this thread is about the doing. MDragon startedthis baby to put it into action. That will be where you learn this "beast".

Best,DH

Deathroe wrote:ok, but what about doin serious cardio w/o the 12 day shift? say if u were to jumpstaraight into the 5/2 and just do some cardio or active recoveries to kill ur glycogenstores would this cause you make the metabolic shift within the first 5 days, making 12days unnecessary? simply theoretical, i kno what your supposed to do, but if you were todo this would it work? or would you just end up burning off muscle mass? thanks again

Disc Hoss wrote:Check a few pages back on some of my posts. An active recovery day will be superior toa cardio session. The one caveat is to NOT build your training week around it. Dan"nearly all my theories are wrong" Duchaine had this as sacred dogma. Toss a very lightsession for total body with about 40-50% 1RM going NOWHERE near failure and do acircuit style workout. This is NOT mandatory and is just a convenient way to squeeze abit more glycogen out of the system.

As far as the shift, once you've gone 12 days bro, it's done. Just trust the science anddon't sweat it.

DH

Deathroe wrote:ok, if your were to do some strenous cardio would this deplete your glycogen storesfaster, thereby causing you to make the metabolic shift faster? or do i have this allwrong. Could someone please explain this all to me? thanks in advance.

Hey BG,If you recall the OTS conjugation trended downward in reps toward the end of the week.You want to stick to the original scheme otherwise you will negate the overloading. Theramp would make each session and each week a bit tougher until you were justbeginning to touch acute overtraining. Then you'd coast for a few weeks with heavierloads and lower volume. It undulated in a sense. You need to keep this intact in order forthe integrity to be whole. Check out my concurrent (time wise) posts and notice that youdon't have to worry about this type of thing. OTS worked well with the AD. The onecaveat they were not so clear on, and this is a biggie, is not to train to failure. Close butnot all the way. Keep it a few reps shy. This type of frequency demands it. The AD workswith any loading parameters that stimulate size and/or strength. You're fine to pick anyT-mag program and just go for it. Once you fully adapt (THAT is a recurring theme herein ALL my posts) then it's life as normal. The AD doen't need to move in, marry yoursister, steal the remote control and generally dominate your life. It's an autopilotprogram that maximizes your hormonal output for gains without fat and leaning withoutshrinking. Now that is a deal!

DH

cccp21 wrote:I was wondering if it would'nt be a good idea to train in accordinance with the glycogenhighs and lows of the anabolic diet. Example would be as in the old OTC manual by LeoCosta to perform high reps in the 15-20 range with 5 sets an exercise during the carbdepletion stage and then low reps(with subsequent high intensity) in the full glycogen

phase(after carb up).Brandon Green

DH,We were discussing using HOT-ROX while cutting on the AD. 2 weeks in and my weighthas stabalized at 185lb, and now my waist is getting smaller, I'm getting leaner and Ihaven't lost any strength. I've noticed that by following the 'cycling' of kcals up anddown each day (weekly total of 21000), it's been fairly easy to lose fat without losingmass. I've also noticed that my energy level is maintained throughout the day, insteadof up and down, even though I have been working midnights and not getting alot ofsleep. I'm doing 2 more weeks of HOT-ROX then I'm going to maintainance mode.

The AD is great because I get to eat lots and put on little, unless I want to. Oh yea, onthe carb up; I've noticed that on Sat I'm FLYIN', on Sun Morning I'm great, by Sundaynite, I'm 'nodding'. By Monday, I'm ready and steady. I"m gonna try this weekend at36hrs instead of 40+, just to see how I feel on Sun night. More later.

I have just completed my sixth week of the AD and I have had a mild crash each weekwith the exception of this week. I would usually crash on Thursday or Friday, but not thisweek. On Thursday and Friday I consumed 4 tablespoons of Olive oil with each mealwhich is double what I take Monday thru Wednesday. I think this helped with notcrashing and I actually had a lot of energy and was in a great mood both days. I think Iam figuring this thing out.This weekend I have kept my carb load to 36 hours which it might be too early to tell,but I think 36 is optimal for me. My scale weight is about the same as when I started,but my body fat is down. All of my training partners have been telling me that I amlooking big and that my midsection is looking good. They' re all now wanting to borrowthe AS. In six weeks I will start my first cycle of Carbolin 19 and six weeks after that Iwill pull the Junior 198 Raw American deadlift record.

Joe

CU AeroStallion wrote:I beleive I'm in the middle of a giant anabolic diet crash right now, all I want to do is layaround, which I'm doing. My first super strict week is dundy, I'm on day 8, Saturday Icarb up... I need to make a wish list even though I haven't craved a dang thing.

Also, I was gonna go workout today, but I'm thinking I'll have to skip it because I don'thave ANY energy right now.

So I'm 'crashin and burnin' so to say, when does this crash end, a day or two... I'm toolazy to search for it in the binder or on this thread, I want my energy back...

talk to me goose

I haven't really had one in a few weeks, but when I do, it usually just lasts about a day.Tomorrow I betting you'll feel fine.

Ok just a few things before my post.1. I have never ever said I am in favor of Bodyopus. I along with you agree bodyopus isa piece of crap. But...

2. I do not think the anabolic diet is the BEST CUTTING DIET. I think it is good forpeople like PL'ers who need some control to their diet to make weight but aren't lookingfor abs.

3. I'm sorry if all of my posts come off as asshole'ish. It is just the way I write. I'msorry, I have to spend fucking 5 hours a day in a legal office typing up letters in archaiclanguage just to seem political correct and by the time i get home I don't want tocapitalize everything and say "well it is my opinion" or the like. Now....

Disc Hoss wrote:You are correct in one thing. You don't understand the "hypocritical" stance of myselfand the originator of the diet. You keep the CHO this low NOT to attain ketosis, butrather to drop glucose levels low enough to trigger significant fat burning AND proteinsparring.

What? How does this trigger fat-burning? I am just wondering.

Disc Hoss wrote:If/when you ever fully adapt to the diet then ketosis is NOT a reality anymore. Want toknow what happens when I whiz on a ketostick? Nothing. My blood glucose hoversaround 90-95. Ketosis is nowhere to be found. Since I have ADAPTED, my body is nolonger in the metabolic purgatory of ketosis. With the large quantities of CHO we ingeston the load and the minimal daily value, we keep just out of ketosis. We're like a planeskimming the ground. We don't land, we hover.

here is the quote from me where I guess you drew this from... i know disc has said thatyou dont need to be in ketosis on this diet but then again i dont get why the fuck stayingunder 30 grams is so blessed critical...seems hypocritical but whatever. I guess then anAD'er has to keep his CHO's low so that he "promotes fat-burning and protein-sparing"which I still don't understand why that would occur just because of a low CHO intake. Ifyou can explain it I will believe you, I just do not get why I should believe that.

Disc Hoss wrote:Dan "I'm wrong 99% of the time" Ducahine demanded NO CHO on mon, tues, and wed(?). He was focusing on forcing you into a rapid ketosis condition by eliminating ALLCHO, with concommitant liberal usage of VS and Metformin to plummet blood sugar.

see point #1.

Disc Hoss wrote: Now what Duchaine did NOT realize is that even at this rate, once theperson adapted, he would use FATTY ACIDS, and TRIGLYCERIDES as the primary fuelsources. But then Mauro says this is to be used as a lifestyle eating pattern, not just a 6week diet solution for a contest.

point #2

Disc Hoss wrote:You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays.

this relates to point #2 also. It isn't that I don't think this thing doesnt WORK for fat-burning whatever, but I do think their are better options(Lyle McDOnald's ultimate diet2.0) for getting RIPPED UP. Now if you are just some MMA'er, PL'er whatever looking tomake weight, yeah this is probably a more sane option. But I am currently not after justmaking weight, and you are not after a 6 pack, so of course we're going to disagree :).

Disc Hoss wrote:You get your glycogen depleted during the weekdays.This allows for an enhanced uptakeof both glucose and amino acids into the muscle.

Yes I agree, but just dieting alone is not OPTIMAL for glycogen depleting. By usingsomething like UD2.0 you get into fatburning mode, whatever the hell we call that, muchfaster than by diet alone.

Disc Hoss wrote:It is preferentially shuttled to the muscle after this scarcity it has experienced. We usethis to trick the body into accepting more than normal amounts of various substances totrigger an anabolic response. Here AGAIN Duchaine has his focus wrong. He thought thatthe above conditions leading to "kinetic cellular expansion" was the golden boy. NO. Thatis a real benefit that has some value, but the real money is the HORMONAL cascade thatthe cyclical pattern sets in motion. To Duchaine it was all about ketosis->glycogensupercompensation. To Di Pasquale it is all about adaptation->hormonal maximization.Once you adapt then ketosis is not attained and neither should it be a goal.

point #2

Disc Hoss wrote:This whole fixation that causes people to miss the big picture reminds me of the trainingto failure controversy. It's not necessary and should not be sought as it increases CNSdemand. You can get "near" failure and still hit the necessary MU's to derive the effect.Both of these dogmatic "needs" (training->failure and ketosis) are doing nothing buttaking a good observation and coming to a bad conclusion.

I agree with you disc, I know ketosis isnt necesarry either. No arguement here.

Disc Hoss wrote:Anyway, ketosis sucks after an initial break in period. It is counterproductive to BB's andPL's whose activity is centered around anaerobic exercise that is fueled by glycogen.

I agree with you mostly, but I do think that recovery is somewhat impaired by lack ofCHO. and especially for a bodybuilder, whose sets last beyond the creatine phosphateenergy production phase into the CHO oxidation or whatever phase where you need CHOi think IT IS NECESSARRY to have carbs for optimal training. Of course you can do itwithout...but everything i argue is for optimisssity(made up haha).

Disc Hoss wrote:We drop down "close" to ketosis where we have the full benefits (once adapted) of usingfat as THE premier fuel source. During this time the body holds stored glycogen like a fatcop does a donut. We use it ONLY for weight training purposes.

Yes but if you have enough glycogen for a fairly high volume session(20 sets) then yourblood gluclose levels have(IMO) to be above 100mg /dl or whatever the measurement is.Disc Hoss wrote:During this time insulin is low/healthy, thus it continues to do it's job of nutrient transferbut won't be able to deposit anything into fat very easily (unless you eat a freakin' cow).Amino acids are sent to muscle as normal BUT and here is the real purpose, testosteronelevels are elevated, GH is elevated (as it often operates in an antagonistic fashion withinsulin), glucagon is bumped up for fat loss (not too much so), and neurotransmittersthat allow for alertness are in ample supply and used. We have an anabolic cocktailgoing on right then NOT ketosis. The value of the ketostix are about as much as theurine you spill on them at this point.

How are all anabolic hormones in a surplus if you're in a caloric deficit. It just seemsimpossible, but maybe i should read the 1,800 studies listed in the AD.

Disc Hoss wrote:Then as we load we derive the benefits of the mother of all insulin surges and haveanother fascinating ADAPTATION phenomenon happen, we get BOTH insulin and GHelevated during at least the first 24 hours of the load.

and you get the mother of all insulin surges on other cyclical diets...like the ultimate diet2.0

Disc Hoss wrote:Yup, that's right. Doc D has found that for the first day of loading at least, you arecontinuing to burn fat at a higher than normal rate and we can actually have GH andinsulin working in tandem. This is normally not a possibility. The benefit and purpose isto wave your CHO to cause a hormonal cascade that allows for anabolic action duringBOTH the low carb phase and the uptake phase.

see above.Disc Hoss wrote:Try to offer comments and assistance instead of argumentative jabs. When you don'tunderstand something then say so, don't come across as a jilted authority, bro. You'll betaken more seriously and you'll show you have a normal respect for the opinions/experiences of others. You can question me all you want, but you should familiarizeyourself with the Metabolic Diet by Di Pasquale before you implicate him as?hypocritical?. What you?ve been is HYPER critical You?ve got too much Lyle andDuchaine in your understanding.

This is the Anabolic Diet thread. We want growth. It is the best cutting diet too, but thekey is muscle growth. We want the best of both worlds. The AD is just that.

Best,DH

*sigh*

and i thought i would add here, everything i say and do is right, just for all you lurkerswho are wondering haha.

Owen,

Dave Barr suggested to someone "Biochemistry Primer for Exercise Science" by Dr. MikeHouston in a thread somewhere, and I got it from interlibrary loan. I suggest you pick upa copy somewhere.

It has alot of pertinent information about the process of gluconeogenesis and oxidationof fatty acids. You kind of have to read between the lines, understanding what Dr. D.says about the differences in enzyme output on the AD. It is al supported in the reading,just sometimes not real aparent.

Basically, lowering CHO will increase glucose production from proteins and fats. Trainingwill spur gluconeogenesis as well, because training seems to increase the threshold atwhich fat stops being the preferred fuel. Because intake of CHO also promotes oxidationof CHO, and the presence of lipids tends to increase lipolysis, low carbs and high fatswould mean gluconeogenesis from lipids would tend to be supported. What I'm gettingat is that from my reading I think it's reasonable to think that after adaptation one wouldbe able to sustain recovery from lipids and proteins alone, without being impaired by lowCHO. "Adaptation" can probably be defined as the point of overcoming some threshold

which promotes the output of enzymes and such that promote preferential fat oxidation.My guess is that enzymes (actually transport proteins?) needed to transport glucose andaminos into cells are also increased to help make up for insulin facilitated transport.Completely by the seat of my pants, I'd say the non insulin mediated glucosetransporters would play an important role. On second thought, it would have to...Finally, research shows that fatty acids in fact inhibit the oxidation of glucose in favor offatty acids. This seems to be a common theme, that consumption of any givenmacronutrient tends to increase oxidation of that macro.

Now, thinking about energy systems, according to Dr. Squat, it takes about 30 secondsto get out of the creatine phosphate cycle and get into glycolysis. I don't know aboutyou, but my sets rarely last this long. Now, if you're doing sprints or something then thatprobably puts you squarely into glycolytic country. Remember though, that glycogen andblood sugar are similar but very different concepts. You can store glycogen, albeit notsupercompensate, without alot of CHO. It is part of the body's regulation ofglycogenesis. This stored glycogen is debranched and split apart to make glucose thatyou use for fuel. Carbon skeletons from amino acids as well as intramusculartryglycerides can also be used as fuel by working muscle. Because a dip in blood sugarwill tend to increase fatty acid and protein oxidation, I would think a small dip wouldn'tbe all that bad when adapted. Further, I think Dave Barr has implyed on threads aroundhere that glycogen status isnt all that big of a deal. The reason being that glycogen willbe replenished all on it's own without any special effort from us.

Resting blood sugar probably won't be affected by low CHO once adapted, due to theaforementioned mechanisms of gluconeogenesis. Being hyperglycemic would be bad, asit would tend to promote glucose burning, which would cause a crash from acceleratedglucose oxidation without additional dietary CHO (in our weekday AD environment) or anincrease in gluconeogenesis.

Also, read JB's "new view of energy balance" article. We want to have a bunch ofanabolic/anticatabolic hormones when hypocaloric because it will preserve muscle versusfat for gluconeogenesis. Remember that even though we are hypocaloric we are still"balancing" our energy needs, i.e. burning some substrate to meet our energy needs.This is going to predominantly be body fat stores if we set ourselves up for fat burningand to put our aminos to use as other than fuel. Dr. Houston writes that even a leanperson has some 75,000 kcals of bodyfat hanging around.

Hope that's coherent and correct me if I muddled up the underlaying science.

Our good CH has just taken you on a small excursion into the benefits and actions thatoccur upon adaptation. I've pounded this theme over and over. Adaptation, NOTintermediate stages that only last a few weeks OR that one continues to attempt tocreate with screwy application. Doc D looks at what happens when you re-wire yourselflong term. Duchaine and Lyle continually did and do respectively, focus on theintermediary phases of adaptation. Reminds me of the info used to buck fat and proteinout of favor from the 60's.

A few studies that looked at SHORT TERM benefits from CHO loading on enduranceathletes turned the whole bodybuilding world upside down. This info was erroneouslyapplied to a new idea of optimal macro intake. Of course it took a few decades to findout that they looked at intermediary effects not long term adaptation to such high CHO.

Now we know they only found the benefits of a carb load NOT the benefits of a high CHOdiet. You know what that is called? Good observation, bad conclusion.

That is what I mean about DanD and Lyle. They miss the forest for the trees. To them itis a cutting diet. NO. NO. NO. It can be a cutting diet, but it is SO much more. We don'tcare about ketosis because you'll burn plenty of fat without it, once you adapt. At that

point you no longer play by the carb users rules. You are a differetn animal, and theresearch done in many studies no longer even applies to you the same as the rest of theworld.

Like the GH and insulin example I gave. The two work in antagonistic fashion undernormal circumstances. Therefore if you eat CHO you blunt Gh response. NOT on the AD.You get both humming for at least 24 hours simultaneously. We are DIFFERENT. Do youknow how to prevent water retention? Drink more water. What ever the body has inabundance, it deems superflous and will make liberal use of. If it determines somethingis scarce, it'll hold it for dear life. You burn fat by eating fat and you hold CHO in muscleby intermittent loads and then phases of "scarcity" so the body uses it very efficientlyand burns fat liberally.

And once you get the CHO in your system, you store it like crazy in the muscle and liver.Your body becomes super stingy with it and you have plenty of it from the loading andthe minimal intake each day. Where on earth do people think that 1000g of CHO goeswhen you load?? "Oh NO! What will I have to train with this week? I'm all out! I'm noteating CHO so I can't fuel my workouts!" Come on. Your sitting on it as we speak. Yourbody is busting with glycogen. You're still burning primarily FFA's for at LEAST 24 hoursof loading, so they aren't used up there. The CHO is stuffing every crevice you've got.There is your necessary supply of glycogen for training. You don't have to kill yourselfwith goofy depletions for a "recomposition rodeo" a la Duchaine. Why, because shiftingthe macronutrient ratio of CHO and fat to the levels on the AD will create an alteration inthe krebs cycle that primes the body to burn fat and retain CHO.

Ketosis is a crude and unnecessarily drastic approach. It'll kill your training and have lessthan optimal effects on your hormonal output. The benefit of an AR workout is justthat...AR.

Now it will work for those who "must" have this depletion idea as a bedrock of theirprogram. Fine. Lyle asserts that the AD is not good for gaining muscle. Have you seenthe guy? What does HE know about muscle. Good grief, IC has more beef on one thighthan LM has in total. Duchaine even negatively commented on Lyles blog when hewanted to "cut up". He never got ripped! Dude writes books on things like Bromocriptinethat are hodge podge at best. This is an expert?! Show me the money, bro.

Tell that to Doc DiPasquale who won competition after competition at 8% bodyfat. Heincludes photos in the AS that are great. Tell IC. Tell me. I couldn't bust 190 withoutgetting getting a puffy look and eating enough CHO to want to nap more than train.

Now I'm 60 pounds heavier, my chest is 55", my shoulder circumference is 61", myarms are 20.5", and in about 3 weeks of dieting you can make out about 4 abs. A girl atwork just commented on my calves (only 15.5") but it's because they are muscular.They (DanD and Lyle) NEVER got big AND never got the big picture. You don't want toscrew around in the gray zone. Get adapted and get to growing without becoming aLard-O.

Partial rant over.

Well done ConorH.

Best,DH

Owen,You've shown yourself a good guy. I appreciate that. I fully understand a little "tension"in a post sometimes and can "forgive" it easily enough.

Keep posting as you are clearly very bright. Just branch out and check out as much ofMauro's stuff as you can. He's got a great Q&A area. You have to make a single purchaseof 25.00 or more once a year then you can have access to his stuff. Even get an email ortwo answered by him if he's not too busy. I have a "direct line" but I do my best not toabuse it out of respect for his time.

Please don't take any of my tones as derogatory on your age or understanding. I justlike to see cordial exchanges that facilitate learning and are structured in a way thatrespects both idiots and geniuses alike. ;-). I'm sure you've heard of measure twice, cutonce. Well sometime around your late 20's you've eaten enough crow to adapt thatto...listen/read twice, speak once. Spoken with a black wing still on my lip, bro. ;-)

Like I said, I think you're wicked smart for being a teen.. so don't let a little chop bustin'discourage you. Just let it improve you.

Best,DH

Sorry for any confusion guys:

FFAA Free form amino acids. (also AA)FFA Free fatty acids.EAA Essential amino acidsEFA Essential fatty acidsCHO Carbohydrate(s)AAS Anabolic/androgenic steroidsHydrolyzed protein been enzymatically broken down to small chains that take very litteeffort/time to digest and absorb. Techincally faster than things like WPI (whey proteinisolate) but not quite as quick as FFAA. That is most of the time. I've seen info to thecontrary too. Hmmm. Middle ground between intact proteins and FFAA's. Shortdefinition.

DH

I'm on week four now, things are really picking up now. My first carb up was 48 hrs andhad alot of cookies and ice cream. Scale weight went up 10 lbs. I lost five of it during theweek. I would have lost the rest but my calories are much higher on this diet than anormal carb diet. My second carb up was cleaner I forgot to weigh myself but I'malready back down to 190 today, so it will be interesting to see if I go back to 185 whichis were I started. Overall I'm still sceptical if this diet will work for me, but I'm going togive it at least four more weeks. Carb diets have not been to kind to me in the past soI'm definately wanting this to work. Energy is up and strength is going up. Thx toeveryone who has posted tips(even you owen70)good luck to all who are "anabolic".

UPDATE:

I consumed about 50% of my weekly calories (for the last week) during the carb-up. Itwas intense. But it's interesting, my body reacted REALLY well. I looked a bit bloated onSunday evening, but by the end of Monday I was looking VERY lean. And my ME squatsession was awesome, too.

When I started the AD a few weeks back, I was enjoying bacon, sausage, and the like.

But I've dropped those from my diet and replaced them with fish oil and olive oil.

At this point, I think I need to play with my fluid intake. I consume close to two gallonsof water/day. My normal intake is a little over one gallon.

On a training note, I'm implementing sled work on a daily basis again. I don't do dailywork very often. I'm interested to observe how my body responds. So far, my perceivedrecovery is better compared to my notes from the last period of daily.

Nice post, Hoss.

For the cooking whingers, try cooking everything you need in one or two sessions. I cookeverything I need for the next day or two on a big ass BBQ while I'm cooking dinner. Icook 4 kilos of steak at a time (3 days worth), plus other shit, like sausages, bacon andground beef. On top of that, throw 2 or 3 chickens in the oven, come back in an hourand a half and you've got plenty of food.

Roasting shit in an oven is dead easy and takes bugger all effort. Cooking a shitload offood in a BBQ is quick and takes bugger all effort. You don't even have to wash upafterwards.

If you are cooking everything individually, yes, it will suck.

Plan ahead, ladies. It works for your training, and it will work for your nutrition.

I haven't yet begun to feel "tight" on the diet yet. I've been doing the diet for 5 weeksnow. I had my calories at around 4000 for the last few weeks, but dropped them downlast friday to 3500. My normal day looks like this:

Meal 1-2pcs bacon, 4 eggs, 10 fish oil tablets, chicken breast.

Meal 2-6 eggs, 1pc Mont. Jack cheese.

Meal 3-2 servings Grow! with 2.5T olive oil or 3/4c flax seed meal.

Meal 4-2 cans fish (usually herring, but sometimes salmon or tuna or oysters), 1pc Mont.Jack cheese.

Meal 5-3 burgers, big bowl (3/4 lb)raw spinach salad, 1.5T olive oil, 10 Fish oil tabs.

Meal 6-2 burgers, 1pc Cheese, another big salad, carrot, maybe some broccoli orcauliflower, 1.5T olive oil.

My carb-ups have been super clean, mainly huge amounts of veggies, a good amount offruit, oat bran/meal, loaves of whole wheat bread and natty PB etc. I can't really tellwhat could be wrong with the way I'm going about this diet, but I don't seem to beexperiencing as many positive effects as some of the other guys just starting out. Anyhelp would be appreciated.

(P.S I don't mind cooking)

Hey Chuck,

Been out of the loop for awhile. Took a job and now I can't touch the internet at work.That's the Govt. for you! Anyway I'd suggest throwing in some little smokies, sausage,pepperoni, salami. You are getting the right mix of carbs but I have found that 'fat'carbs, like those found in a little smokie, tend to make me feel 'full'. Burgers these dayscan't really be included in the 'little smokie' fat category as cattle are fed to be so leanthat red meat, even burgers, has very little intramuscular fat. Don't get me wrong, I lovesteaks and such but I eat a ton of 'slim jims' and stuff like that. I'm cooking up a big panof sausage right now for breakfast tommorow in fact. You might also try a crazy carb up.I'm talking Sonic shakes and Head sized Muffins. Try a 12 hr. block of this but be near acouch. Your butt is gonna be on it!

Later, Barry

my rediscovering of the AD was in a bodybuilding book where Dr. DP was a co-author, init he said that some people just don't work on 30g of Carbs a day. He suggesteddoubling it after 4 weeks if you don't start feeling great. Then he mentioned that ifthings get better, GREAT, you've got a new amount of carbs to not exceed each day.Another way he said to do it is to add 10 grams of carbs every two weeks until you feelgood, basically experiment with it. He also said that most people whose bodies can't dothe 30 g of carbs/day will probably need the 60 g of carbs/day anyways.

If I wind up at the bookstore where I saw this in the near future, I'll tell ya what thename of the book was (I don't remember), but the book was an all inclusivebodybuilding book and the nutrition/diet section was about 35 pages and written by Dr.D, although I didn't look at any of the workouts or anything of that nature, if nothingelse the book is worth something just because of the diet section

I just wanted to chime in on my experience so far.

I started out doing a one day carb up from about 8 sunday mroning (after work, i worknights) till Sunday night when I went to sleep. Now, subtracting sleep, this was oftenabout 12-14 hours. This combined with my carbophobia meant I wasn't getting in verymany carbs. After three weeks I decided to extend my carb up from Saturday afternoon/evening until Sunday night and to actually count my carbs to make sure I get 400 inover the course of the weekend. I am now hitting about 600.

I feel like I'm doing much better with a full fledged carb up and not my half assedattempt. Also, almost no junk or fast food. All taters, rice, beans. I'm actually down alittle in weight and look a little leaner after eating more on the weekend. Cool, huh?

HODGE PODGE HOSS:

Couple of quick topics on some stuff I've been asked in the thread that I've not kept upon.

Kurmatt:FREE VEGGIES. Eat all you want once you ADAPT. These create a caloric deficit by takingmore energy to digest than they themselves contain. Mow down boys!

AsparagusBroccoliCauliflowerCeleryLettuceMushrooms

RadishSpinach.

-----------Unimpressive Carb Load Guy. ;-).

Eat more starches and watch the veggies. They slow down the insulin release big timeand you could be getting a bit much. Eat MUCHO starch on the load. Baked taters, yams,oatmeal, bread, pasta, rice, cereals, spagehtti w/marinara at Il Cazzo's etc...

Make sure you get at least 20% of your calories from FAT too. In fact, I like about 30%better.Why you ask? Well two reasons. (1). It tastes awesome to eat some cake and ice cream.(2) Once you ADAPT, fat actually increases the insulin surge instead of the often heldbelief that it slows down the release of macronutrients. Not so on a carb load boys! Ain'tlife grand!

I go:15-20% Pro50-55% CHO30% Fat

Of this, about 70% of your CHO should be starchy (clean). The rest can be FruityPebbles and Pancakes with maple syrup. Just watch your waist. You be the judge as tohow much junk you can get away with. Be real or you'll pay later.

------------HEY HOSS, WHAT ABOUT CHO IN Power Drive

Well, it's only about 3.5 g and I only use it once a day overall. Of course it suggests notusing more than around 2 servings per day. One serving is PLENTY of tyrosine, so leaveit at that. There are herbs that can help with alertness if you need it and (to tolerance)caffeine is cool too.

--------------HEY HOSS, CHECK YOUR PM'S.

Some are not getting through. Had like 3-4 people tell me they've tried to contact me.My box is pretty full. I'm probably over a limit or something. I'll have to house clean.

------------

If I missed anybody, just post it again. ;-).

Best,DH

Headhunter wrote:Hey Guys,

I started this diet on Monday and feel great! Am I doing something wrong? I wolf downcheese, meatloaf, pepperoni, bacon -- but I feel ready to rock! The only carbs I'mgetting are an apple a day and the Citrucil. Still too much carb?

Thanks!

BTW, you make it sound like that by following this diet your are supposed to feel likedung. None of us would be doing this diet if it made us feel like crap all the time. Also,you've only been on the diet for 3 days. Give it the appropriate amount of time and thensee what you think.

-BD

For what it's worth, C. Atlas...

I asked about your recovery schedule because I think it is a component of the equationmany of us often neglect or downplay. My first reaction was that you were overtraining. Ithink your diet approach during the week is solid. But with the amount of exercise (and Iassume intensity) of your training schedule, I'd increase your calories. 3500 is too low. Ithink you said you started at 4000.

Why not bump up to 4500-5000/day for two weeks, and see how your body responds?Don't be afraid of calories. On the weekends, I'd drop the veggies, keep your CHOsources clean, and concentrate on wheat pasta, quinoa, natty PB, and oatmeal. Push theCHO to about 60% of your daily for 24-36 hours. You can taper back towards your weekmacro ratios during the second half of Sunday.

What do you have to lose? As you said, it's a lifestyle. You've got to play with thenumbers and watch how your body responds

Thanks vasuveda. Valid suggestions all.

I've been carbing up for all of my meals on saturday, and all of my meals minus my lastmeal on sunday. I just checked back in my log from last weekend, and during my carbload I took in a total of 840g of carbs, not counting fiber. However, the bulk of these(50-60% at least) came from fibrous vegetables and fruit. Based on yours and everyoneelse's suggestions, I believe I will do this:

This weekend and next-get at least 60-70% of my carbs from clean starches, maybeeven have a bit of something with sugar in it, (gasp!). Also eliminate the one "weekday"meal from the end of sunday, replace it with a carb-up meal. If this does not improvethe situation then...

The following 2 weekends try a "mozhne-esque" crazy carb-up, shakes, ice cream,muffins, etc. If this does not work then...

The following two weeks bump up calories to 4500-5000. Once again, if this isunsuccessful then...

The following two weeks, begin to ratchet up daily carbs by 10g/day. I will do this until Istart to feel it.

I think this should cover all of my possible bases. My problem, (based on all of your kindsuggestions) seems to most likely be with my weekend carb-ups. It could also be withthe overall quantity of carbs I am consuming during the week.

Vasuveda, the reason I decided to leave bumping up the calories until I have exhaustedsome other sources is that when I was consuming 4000kcal/day and doing the sameworkload I described to you, I was gaining about 2lbs/week. This is why I don't thinkthat I'm in a state of caloric deficit, even though my workload is very high. I very wellmay be wrong, and hopefully I will catch it if I am.

Hoo boy, this turned into a long post. I took 2 of my new Spike tablets about 30mins agoand....well you know the rest. I WANT TO GO RUN!

I'll leave my comments to this:

1. Somebody doesn't have the first clue as to the real dynamics of the AD. A littleclue...if the term ketogenic is being thrown around, you just missed the bus stop. Checkout Di Pasquale's writing and educate yourself.

2. Know anybody with the credentials both professionally and competitively of DiPasquale? I didn't think so. Thats why Mauro is called "the expert's expert" in not onlyperformance nutrition but also AAS. He writes texts for collegiate and professional usageand serves on some of the highest boards in medicine and sport. Oh and in his sparetime he makes programs that "suck" and are "dated".

3. If one can't grace us with the respect to actually read the aforementioned pages inthe thread where this has been addressed and cannot put forth some effort on doingsome REAL reading, then don't bother to stop by. Really, what's the point. Ironically,what you are looking for is in there, but you are evidently too lazy to read. How's thetraining going with that "drive", bro?

4. Perhaps someone is jealous of the biggest most successful thread on a legit topic in T-Mag history...

5. You refuted you own points. Jeff Rage says the diet is good and worked for a lot ofpeople, you then commend his conclusions, then you state that is sucks. Very smart andprofessional of you.

6. Get with the program. The Metabolic Diet (written for the medical community and thelay public) came out in 2000. The Anabolic Solution for BB and PL came out in 2002.Know what you are talking about before you speak. Makes you look much smarter.

DH

Well this could go a few ways. If it happens to fall in the middle of the week then that'sfine. Keep it small and quick. It wont hurt if it is infrequent. Packing and planning goes along way and you can always order a steak, grilled vegetables and a salad at any decentrestaurant.

If a holiday like Christmas comes around what I'll do is something like the hypotheticalfollowing:

Christmas eve is on Tues, and Christmas day is on Wed.

1. Follow the normal 5 days of fat/protein

2. Consume about 200g of CHO in a meal or two during Saturday evening.

3. Back to fat/protein again until Tues (Christmas Eve) and then do a normal full 36-48hour load (tues am until wed pm). Eat all the goodies you want and don't worry about it.;-)

4. Then do a week of fat/protein

5. You will now be in cycle to do another load for New Year's Eve and New Year's Day.This too would be tues and wed.

6. Go until Saturday and have a FULL day of CHO loading. Or Sunday. Just ONE day.

7. Normal week until the next normal weekend load. You are now back in cycle.-------

Short: Space a carb meal about 3 days away from a load and then lessen the followingload or hit this same sequence (1-2 meals or 200-300g CHO)to get back in normal cycle.

-------I used the above example of Christmas and New Years because they are really big eatingand drinking days and they are one week apart. How convenient!!

Other holidays such as Easter are on a weekend so that works out well.

Summer holidays are perfect either way. Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day are greatfor grilling so we can have a fat/protein day. Or if it is on the weekend, then throw insome baked beans, tater salad, and pie!

Thanksgiving. I do only a one day load the weeked before on Saturday. Then do a fullload on Thanksgiving and the day after. Then go low carb till the next weekend. This isnearly a normal cycle.

Now you're set!!

DH

JohnnyChainsaw wrote:So I think I have been inspiried to give this a go. My only question is, after reading Dr.D's books, both for powerlifters and BBers, would this be a good diet for a guy who doesathetic type training? Not that powerlifters aren't athelets, but I'm just finishingWaterbury's SFM and am going to be moving to Westside for Skinny Bastards with a lotof sprint work.

Would I just need to up the carbs a wee bit here and there as needed to compensate forthe additional energy systems work that I'll be doing opposed to people who just lift?

This is only based on my personal experience but...You don't need to up the carbs at all until you've figured out how you respond to thediet. Don't be worried about the energy systems work, I had no problems even whenstarting out. To give you some idea of my energy systems workload that week, I wastaking 20lb. X-Vest walks for 30mins upon waking every day in addition to 2 "RunningMan" style interval sprint sessions per week, (at the "good shape level, weeks 3 and 4),and in addition to this on Friday (the least "carb-loaded" day of the week) I did an X-Vest century circuit with 18lbs.

I've actually found, (despite my small problems with the AD), that I have a ton moreenergy for bike riding, sprinting, basketball etc. It seems that you have a good dealmore energy to "grind" out the last few miles, or sprints, or whatever. It's like you canjust reach down in your belly and pull out as much of that energy-rich fat as you need tocomplete the task. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt, but there is a noticable difference, at

least for me. This is one of the key reasons I've stuck with the AD, in spite of the factthat I haven't yet gotten some of the positive aspects of the diet others have. Sorry forthe rant.

Dnis,As long as you keep fat at least 40-45% you will be fine. Just means that you'll need tomake up the difference with protein NOT CHO. In fact, when cutting you can go tosomething like:

40F/5-10CHO/50-55P (percentages)

Just don't dip below 40% or you'll begin to draw too much energy from protein and giveyour body a "taste" to perhaps tap into muscle for energy. Speculation on my part, butDoc D says go no lower than 40%.

Creatine, which provides ATP, is great for any day on the diet. One could argue thatgiven enough red meat you wouldn't "need" it, but I like it and feel better on it. I only do5g per day as Dave Barr has convinced me that higher amounts are not needed.Remember, we use FFA's broken down into ATP for fuel instead of glycogen broken downinto ATP. Contrary to popular belief you DON'T need CHO because ATP is the primaryfuel (along with intramuscular triglyceride) and can easily be attained from fat. The restof your day is spent using fats in the oxidative system for energy. Adding creatine justhelps with our supply. On the weekends, it's great for the pump, too.

Many of us use/recommend/support:

Protein powder (Support T-mag's Grow)Fish OilOlive Oil (better than coconut oil)Vitamin/Mineral combosSurge (On weekend workouts only for a real blast/pump)ZMA (cool before bed)PowerDrive (My other coffee and a real help with CNS recoveryC19 (fine with any diet)AlphaMale (great with any diet)HotRox (for fat loss at Mach speed)Creatine (good for any diet)

Any of the above are fine and many others are too. Should give you a "go" list.

DH

Also, anybody notice what copious amounts of modern drugs can do for Lou Ferrigno? Ifanybody has Pumping Iron then look at the difference. Know what? Louie (and all theguys in the 60's and 70's) look better back then IMHO. Ah the good ol' days of safe/saneAAS usage. ;-)

Thought I'd shoot this out again as it is lost in the "netherworld" of this monster thread:

From Mauro DiPasquale:

At this point, a little biochemistry lesson may be in order so you can get a better idea ofwhy The Metabolic Diet is superior to the competition. Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) isthe source of all metabolic activity in the human body. In order to get the energy the

body needs for muscle contraction, breathing, brain cell function and virtually all otheractivities, ATP must be generated. People have gotten the idea that you must have theglycogen and the glucose that comes from carbohydrates for the body to produce andreplenish ATP and survive. What people don't understand is that the body can produceglucose without taking in carbs (gluconeogenesis) and that protein and fat can be usedto provide energy andreplenish ATP. It's a misconception that you must have large amounts of dietary carbs tofunction. When carbohydrates make up the bulk of your diet, you basically burn theglucose from the carbs as energy. Glucose enters the bloodstream and it's either usedfor immediate energy or stored as glycogen in the liver and muscles. The glucose notstored as glycogen is made into triglycerides (bodyfat). When needed for energy, thestored glycogen is converted back to glucose and used up directly by a cell ortransported through the bloodstream to other body cells for conversion and use asenergy. When fat and protein make up more of your diet, you don't have those largeamounts of glycogen or glucose available for energy anymore. Most of your energy willcome from the breakdown of free fatty acids in your diet or from the fat stored on yourbody. As we discussed, some of the energy will come from glucose that is produced frommainly from glycerol (part of our body fat) and amino acids (at least on low carb diets).Instead of burning the stored glycogen or glucose for energy, the body burns free fattyacids or triglycerides (the storage form of the free fatty acids) and the glucose that itmakes. Basically, a diet high in fat activates the lipolytic (fat burning) enzymes in yourbody and decreases the activity of the lipogenic (fat producing) enzymes. Dietary freefatty acids and triglycerides become the body's main energy source. The triglycerides arebroken down to free fatty acids and then ketones, a source that can be used for energyby body cells. In short, the free fatty acids and ketones take the place of glucose and thetriglycerides act like glycogen. When carbs are the main form of energy to the body, thebody produces insulin to process it and store it. This is all well and good but one of theproblems with insulin is that it activates the lipogenic (fat producing) enzymes on thebody and decreases the activity of the lipolytic (fat burning) enzymes. What this leads tois an increased storing of body fat and a decrease in the amount of stored fat that will beburned. The exact opposite occurs on the higher fat/lower carb diet. After undergoingthe "metabolic shift" from being a carb-burning machine to a fat-burner, lipogenesis (theproduction and laying down of fat on the body) decreases, and lipolysis (the burningof both dietary and bodyfat for energy) increases. You're burning fat as your primaryfuel, and instead of using glycogen or breaking down precious protein, you'll burn off thefat on your body for energy as needed. This can have a big effect on overall bodyfat, andresearch has now begun to document the fact that while on a higher fat low carb diet,weight loss is due to the almost exclusive loss of bodyfat. In one study of ideal-weighthuman subjects, it was found that higher fat diets were accompanied by a very stronglipolytic (fat-burning) effect. In another study focusing on obese subjects, it was foundthat, when offered high carb/relatively low fat diets or low carb/relatively higher fatdiets, the subjects on the lower carb diets lost significantly more fat. Though prevailingwisdom would predict that the higher fat diet would simply make people fatter, theyactually lost more weight on the higher fat diet. It may sound crazy, but that's the waythe body works. Contrary to what mostpeople believe fat oxidation is regulated primarily by carbohydrate intake rather than byfat intake. Once you've adapted to a higher fat/low carb diet, fat doesn't beget fat.Despite what you've been told, a properly designed higher fat/lower carb diet doesn't putfat on. It takes fat off. Similar results have occurred in animal studies. Meanwhile, I'veseen and heard of the positive effects of a high-fat diet time and time again both in myown practice, and from countless others who have tried it. The fat melts away. At thesame time, as a bonus, body tone can be improved markedly thanks to the "proteinprotecting" nature of the diet.

Got a PM on this and thought all could enjoy from the reply I gave..

-------On training, that is very subjective. Consider this...

Should I train power style on compound moves when I'm fully loaded and strong ORwould it make more sense to use higher rep bodybuilding when my glycogen is maxed?On the one hand you can push big poundages, on the other you can effectively hit betterweight for reps with a full tank. Toward the end of the week perhaps I should hit lowreps as these keep the set duration to 10 seconds or less thus utilizing ATP directly forenergy. Fat readily provides the ATP for this part of the week. Not so simple a question.

Here again is the key. Adaptation. Real adaptation. Say 4-6 months. At this time you areusing FFA's beautifully, you have triglyceride "on site" to give the fuel. Taking theposition of glycogen and glucose. Also, when we do need glucose for longer set durations(20 secs or more)we can derive it from our stores OR, if need be, gluconeogenesis onthe fat intake can provide it.

Duchaine seeing this one dimensionally is the big issue. The carb up is indeed importantBUT it is NOT the all important issue. The key is the total hormonal cascade. Test, GH,glucagon, insulin etc... The focus on ketosis and then supercompensation is not thepoint. When you adapt, ketosis takes a hike. The common conception is that we spendthe week hanging around and burning a little fat for the all important loading period. Ourwhole week is shot and an afterthought compared to the load. Way off base as this is farfrom the point.

During the week while insulin is under control, GH is humming and T levels (suppressedby high CHO intake) are optimized. You have a good/low insulin level to continueshuttling nutrients into the muscle. We are using insulin as a weapon to create high T,and GH levels during the week, and then for a forced anabolic event on the loads. Yousee one side is as necessary and anabolic as the other. ONCE you adapt.

On training, Doc is an old school PL and readily concedes the reins to the individual tosee how they choose to order their training. You don't need to build a workout aroundthis diet. You would IF you forever stayed in the ketosis cycle but once you fully adapt,you don't need to. The only thing I do is avoid anything strenuous on my last low carbday. This is dictated by experience and individuality. Ready for a surprise? I do well withlow reps toward wed and thurs. Again, because ATP is center stage and because I'm fullyadapted. You see everyone wants to base a strategy around a transient state of ketosisbefore a good solid adaptation occurs. Crazy. They look at what the body is doing thefirst month or so and ASSUME this scenario is the new norm.

Now you know why Duchaine and Lyle are some of my biggest annoyances. They madelaws, formulas and judgements before adaptation gets to really settle in. That's what Imean by "good observation, bad conclusion" or starring at the finger pointing instead ofwhat the finger is pointing at. Di Pas points this out over and over but people still fail tosee the subtle but important difference.

On your personal best loading parameters, that will take time and patience. You wontlearn this baby in a few weeks, as I'm sure you know. This is a new learning process fora new metabolic state. It wont likely come quickly. I still tweek it and sometimes my"formula" doesn't always do as good as winging it with some common sense. Tryhammering the CHO for massive calories from time to time. Nothing is static.

Remember that Berardi points out that some people can't lose weight until the pushcalories up to surprisingly high "bulking" numbers. So much for making sense or havingall the numbers just right. ;-). The human body is an unpredictable thing.

Going with Duchaine's formula for 12-16g/kg LBM is fine, but again, from where arethese numbers derived? Atletes that spend more time in the aerobic and glycolyticpathways such as cyclists? Can it be extrapolated to almost purely anaerobic athletessuch as ourselves? Possibly. We don't know. Honestly, once you train for a long whileyour own sense is better than a formula.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to have a starting place but it's kinda like the variedformulas for caloric intake. Gives you a ballpark but don't get married to it. Its allrelative. Also look at the concept of calories in/calories out where we know that energybalance doesn't work in a neat 1:1 ratio. See how something can look good on paper andcan be "proven" by a scientist and a calculator, but when we discover some new aspect/process of the body we must alter our concepts, sometimes drastically?

The load numbers are variable as you would suspect. I like fat at 25%. Better load andstronger. But I'm very adapted and consequently at the point where I burn fat for atleast the first 24 hours of the load along with glucose. GH, contrary to it's usual nature,also stays elevated. See how adaptation changes much of what we "know" aboutourselves? When you are reading research you must make sure that the variables testedmatch those in your life, otherwise you can't pull too much info from it. It's just notapplicable if you aren't in the study "mold".

For instance, caffeine increases insulin in the presence of CHO, but burns fat in theabsence of CHO and it's concurrent insulin rise. And again, for a CHO eater, insulin andGH work in an antagonistic fashion versus the above. Another anomaly of adaptation.

Try working out over the load with whatever days (MxS or hypertrophy or whatever) tosee if you get a better/ different load. Or try just the opposite so that you aren't tappingyour supply while trying to fill. And one more thing. Try upping your fat from your usual15%. Once adapted, fat INCREASES the insulin response to CHO instead of theconventional wisdom that fat slows the digestion and therefore the insulin release.

Best,DH

ConorH,I've been on/off nights for 8 years. It does get better and here are a few tips:

When you get up take a brisk walk in some fresh air and sunlight. This will sendmessages to your brain to become alert.

Put sheets of cardboard covered with aluminum foil on your bedroom windows. Makesure you seal every crack and face the Al to the outside to reflect sunlight. I also use asleep mask (local drug store) and earplugs to sleep. I have a fan on low speed to give anadditional low droning noise to block out cars/lawnmowers/dogs barking/kids, etc..You MUST sleep in complete darkness and quiet. It's been shown that our body actuallybegins to awaken when even our SKIN is exposed to sunlight let alone our eyes. Myroom is like a tomb at Fort Knox.

Tell everyone you know that you are NOT available from 8am-5pm. Yeah that's right. 9hours. Your quality of sleep is just not on par with night sleep and you need a goodamount. Tell them that if they call or bug you, you're going to do the same to them onyour lunch break at 3am. Nobody considers it acceptable to bug people at night and it isequally unacceptable for others to bug you. You've got to get direct all the time anddownright rude a few times. Trust me. ;-).

Try using about 300-600mcg of Melatonin (Melatonex w/B6) works well. Use it for a

week or two. Then wean off. It's not good long term.

Avoid caffeine 3-5 hours before bedtime.

Use a dose of PowerDrive if you need a pickup. 1-1 1/2 dose only. More is too muchtyrosine and too many CHO.

Go to bed at the SAME TIME everyday. You MUST give your body a schedule to adjustto. You cannot adjust to haphazard sleep bouts. You will feel hideous. I went a fewmonths without working out and thinking I was losing my mind until I really knuckleddown on this.

Keep your bedroom cool. You cannot sleep comfortably in heat.

Go to bed when you get home. You are not available or "home" to:take care of the kidsrun errandsmake phone callspay billsdo physical labor (like mowing lawn)etc...

SCHEDULE YOUR SLEEP OR PEOPLE WILL STEAL IT FROM YOU!

Everyone I work with complains and feels like a zombie because they hit the "honey do"list when they get home. Wifey feels that now you are her's and she has some things foryou to do. NO. Be direct. She doesn't get assaulted with laundry, errands, and the like at3am. People have the most difficult time getting this through their thick heads. To themyou are home and you are up. Perfect time to get something done. Remind them youjust worked and now must sleep so that you may work again or those bills won't get paidat all. You'll have to train people to think beyond their own little world and empathizewith your situation. They won't go without kicking and sreaming usually.

Best,DH

Shoot, I'm mad now. ;-)

Just finished my 2nd carb up. Down 14lbs since I started. Went right into a cutting cycleafter my first carb up. Diet rocks and for everyone just starting it. Just really stick with itand hang in there the first 2 weeks. I was gagging when I first started because I wasn'tuse to eating so much meat. Now I crave it like a zombie craves brains. For anyone thathas something bad to say about it. This mornings breakfast. Steak, eggs and bacon.How was you egg whites and wheat toast?

Ha Ha Ha,I know what you mean. Looking back at my food log, I used to eat oat bran, fruit, andcottage cheese for breakfast. Now it's eggs, bacon, and some of whatever I had fordinner the night before, (usually steak or pork).

Feeling great today, I've been getting better and better since I started eating largeamounts of those veggies DH mentioned. This weekend I really emphasized starchycarbs, (e.g. bread, pasta, oatmeal, etc.) and it seemed to help. I felt really tight at theend of my carb-up last night, and I feel great now. I'm gonna eat one more time, takesome Power Drive, and head to the gym. Hopefully I am now becoming a fat burner.

I want to thank MDrag, DH, Mozhne, and everyone else who have made this anawesome thread. You guys inspired me to retry the AD on July 4th weekend, and theresults have been awesome so far! I tried the diet back when I was in college, but nothaving access to a kitchen killed me. I was all crash and never saw all the benefits thismonster provides. All that being said, I found some interesting things in my search forinformation that I thought I would post.

1) Here is something interesting to look at with respect to maintaining favorablehormonal profiles while using AD to cut fat:

www.science-projects.com/MolecStruct.htm

An interesting thing to check out here is the similarities in the molecular structures oftestosterone and cholesterol. As DH said, the body will make liberal use of anything thatit contains in abundance. If the body has cholesterol in abundance, it will make use of itto make testosterone because the process to create testosterone from cholesterol is thesimplest (perhaps only?) one that exists.

Metaphorically, it would be like wanting to get permission from your boss to dosomething. Should you just go directly and ask, or should you do all of the leg work,present a compelling argument, and require no more work from him than his signature?Essentially your doing the same thing with your body. You present a hypocaloric statecombined with all of the building blocks necessary to maintain favorable hormonalprofiles. (I think this might be a good takeaway for Owen70).

All that being said, there still needs to be a sanity check on the food taken in. Thegarbage in = garbage out rule applies here. You probably won?t maintain the besthormonal profiles on hotdogs and pork rinds. Quality fats from whole meats and olive oilplus the necessary green veggies are what you should be looking for while using AD tocut bodyfat. (This has been stated quite a few times by the veteran ADers on thisboard.)

2) Here is an interesting excerpt from the following site regarding the relative healthmerits of fats (to include saturated fats): www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids2.html

The Fat Free CrazeThe concept that some fats are essential for good health is just emerging in theawareness of the general public, but the aversion to fat resulting from many years ofindoctrination against fat has resulted in great consumer demand for low-fat or nonfatproducts. Some manufacturers, eager to increase their sales, concoct products that usemonoglycerides, diglycerides, or fatty acid esters of polyglycerol, and argue that theseproducts are "Fat Free" because only triglycerides are fats.

Average consumers eat these products under the illusion that they are low in caloriesbecause the manufacturers do not disclose the calories of these components in theNutrition Facts. In addition, most products containing monoglycerides, diglycerides, orartificial fats do not state whether the constituent fatty acids are saturated orhydrogenated. New regulations are often adopted as a reaction to abuses like this, but itis a slow process that may be further delayed by lobbying and enables manufacturers tocontinue reaping profits in the meantime.

Saturated FatsFor many years, saturated fats were equated with the "artery clogging" deleterioushealth effects associated with trans fats. Many authoritative medical sources advise

decreasing the consumption of saturated fats because there is a relationship betweenserum total cholesterol concentrations and saturated fatty acid intake. However, severalscientific studies indicate that saturated fats have beneficial biological effects and differsignificantly from trans fats which are always bad.

It is worthwhile noting that the butterfat in human milk has 20% more saturated fatsthan lard. Saturated fatty acids, particularly medium chain fatty acids such as lauric andcapric acids, have been found to play an important role in supporting the immunesystem. Studies of the effects of specific fatty acids on serum cholesterol levels haveshown that of the three most common saturated fatty acids in tallow and lard, onlymyristic acid increases the level of cholesterol in the blood substantially, whereas stearicacid has no effect, and the polyunsaturated linoleic acid decreases it.

The quantitative relationship expressed by the Hegsted equation suggests that bloodcholesterol levels may be lowered naturally by adding to our diet sources of linoleic acidsuch as safflower, sunflower, or grape seed oils.

okay guys- first monday after weekend load and I can definitely say that 24 hrs is MUCHbetter. Last weekend i felt like i was falling into a coma, and actually my training sessionsuffered!I carb up Sunday on Pasta, flax meal and whey- and I was a monster in the gym today(monday). Another thing I've realized- I don't count calories over the weekend carbload, but now that i know 24 hrs is my limit- I also realized that i go not by the mirror (ifI'm smoothing out as the good Dr says in the book- Cause I'm already smooth!) butwhen i start to drift I know I've had enough carbs- Has anyone else felt this after carbloading?I was back on protien powder + udo's/virgin coconut oil. Felt good all da

So today was my first on the diet. I ate about 3900 cals and I'm starving. I thought itmight be hard to eat this much, but when its steak and cheese and bacon, salads witholive oil and almonds and fish oil supps, its pretty easy. Felt a little down today, butthat's probably because I got about four hours of sleep last night.

Great to see some new blood posting! The down and dirty is that this diet rocks, you justhave to play with sources, durations, and calories. But these are the details. The bigpicture is emerging as the AD's thrust is the hormonal shift that it causes that the loadand concurrent insulin spike is only a part. Albeit important, but it's nothing without thefull benefits of adaptation.

Now I hope it is becoming more clear as to what I meant the difference is between the"copycats" and the real AD. The focus being on ketosis and rebounding is taking theadaptation process and assuming it perpetuates itself forever. The adaptation emphasissays "you ain't seen nothin' yet". Once you adapt, you are a new breed.

DH

Ok boys, I had a crisis going on here over the last week that caused me to not reallygive two shits about my diet or training. Basically I came off the diet for all intents andpurposes.

Yesterday I came to my senses (plus the crisis ended.....it's not a boy or a girl) and Istarted back in on the AD. My question is, after this one week "carb up" do I need toendure the full 12 day entrance again? or if I go 5/2 will it get me back to where I wantto be.

On a side note...... I felt like shit the entire week, sure there were some other thingscontributing to it, but I was tired all the damn time and had the energy of a tortise. Iwould go to bed much earlier and had trouble waking up. I was late to work every singleday (good thing i'm the boss) which is weird I am usually the first one here.

I am going to also start encorporating sprints into my weekly planner, Charles, What daydo you do yours on?

V

V,5/2 is fine. Your body knows the ropes. No problems.

DH

FOOTBALL is upon us:

Had a guy ask me a question about a good football program for a defensive backposition. Came up with this on the fly. Thought some of our AD athletes might like apeek into it:

Best,DH

----------Do the following for functional mass and speed:

Day 1: UB power day/LB endurance

A1) Inc bench press (@35 degrees) 10x3A2) Bent over BB rows 10x3*use 80% 1RM or about 6 rep max*use 75secs between each set*alternate exercises back and forth*add roughly 3 reps to your grand total each week like so:

week 1 10x3 = 30 total repsweek 2 3x4, 7x3 = 33 total repsweek 3 6x4, 4x3 = 36 total repsweek 4 10x4 = 40 total repsweek 5 3x5, 7x4 = 43 total repsweek 6 6x5, 4x4 = 46 total repsWeek 7 OFF and recuperate.

B1) Lunges 2x20B2) Calf raises 2x20*use 24 rep max*do exercises as a superset.1 set of lunges, then 1 set of calvesrest 90 secs

1 set of lunges, then 1 set of calves*drop 5 seconds off of rest period each week and 10 secs on last week. After 6 weeksyou will be using 60 sec rests between supersets:

week 1: 90 sec restweek 2: 85 sec restweek 3: 80 sec restweek 4: 75 sec restweek 5: 70 sec restweek 6: 60 sec restWeek 7: off and recuperate

C) Low rep ab work (3x5-6 reps)We keep volume low for strength without growth.

-----------------------------------Day 3: LB power/ UB endurance

A1)Back Squats 10x3A2)Good Mornings 10x3*use 80% 1RM or about 6 rep max*use 75secs between each set*alternate exercises back and forth*add roughly 3 reps to your grand total each week like above on UB day:

B1)BB shoulder press 2x20B2)Lat pulldowns 2x20*use 24 rep max*do exercises as a superset.*1 set shoulder press, 1 set pulldownsrest 90 secs1 set shoulder press, 1 set pulldowns*drop 5 seconds off of rest period each week and 10 secs on last week. After 6 weeksyou will be using 60 sec rests between supersets:

week 1: 90 sec restweek 2: 85 sec restweek 3: 80 sec restweek 4: 75 sec restweek 5: 70 sec restweek 6: 60 sec rest

C1)Biceps curls 3x12 (any you choose)C2)Triceps pressdowns 3x12*cycled exactly as B1 and B2 above*rest periods dropped like above*use 15 rep max. This should add some necessary direct gun work.------------------------------------Day 5: (Total body speed day)Clean and press 8x3DB side to side lunge 8x3Low rep ab work 6x3

*use 55-60% 1RM and go for max speed.*Do NOT alternate these. Straight sets*60 secs rest between sets*Use only 2 big OL/PL compound lifts that target whole body

*Use hanging leg raises or weighted crunches for speed work-------------On your upper body work use the following moves. Use an exercise for about 2 weeks ona particular day. for example: use incline bench on your Day 1 for two weeks. Use adifferent movement on your endurance day than your power day. Use this move for 2weeks in a row before changing.

Upper body pressing moves:Military press (front, behind or db)Incline bench press (30-45 degrees)DipsClose Grip bench (14-16" grip)

Upper body pulling moves:Bent BB RowsCable pulley rowsPlate loaded row machineChinsPullups

Lower body moves:Squats (back, front, sissy, hack, etc.)Deadlifts (regular, sumo, partials)Lunges (BB or DB, flat or elevated)Calves (all varieties)

Ab moves:Ab wheel rollsweighted crunchessuper slow hanging leg raises---------------------

We will add reps to the 10x3 work so as to add mass while using a heavy weight.Strength and mass both.

We will decrease the rest periods on the 2x20 and 3x12 work and keep the same weight.Drop 5 seconds off the rest per week. This will allow for some sarcoplasmic growth andincrease lactic acid clearance and tolerance for football.

This will give you functional growth, endurance, and speed. This should work well for afootball defensive back.

Hey V,Way to get right back on the horse. I do my sprints twice a week, on Wed. and Sat. Istrength train on M, T, Th., Fr. I rest on Sunday. Let me know if you need any more info.CA.

Uga wrote:I'm 3 days into the initial evaluation phase of the diet & I'm losing water weight likecrazy! My question is this: What's the best day to check progress; Monday, after theweekend carb-up or Friday, before the weekend card-up?

Another question: Is it OK to use Low-Carb Grow! & fat supplements for most of mymeals? So far I haven't had any problems w/hunger or constipation doing this.

Thanks DH for the info on where to procure the diet specifics.

I don't know about using supplements for the bulk of your diet, but it seems to me thatyou want to weigh yourself on Fridays. Your weight dramatically changes based on theamount of carbs you ate during the carb-up. Weighing yourself on the day after yourcarb-up would result in wide swings in body weight depending on how long your carb-upwas. This is true at least during the initial stages of the diet.

It seems to me that once your body got completely adapted to this way of eating, (sayafter a year or so), it wouldn't matter when you weighed yourself.

just wanted to chime in here:

I've been on the diet(if you can call it that) for about 2 months now (i think) and I amjust now going to start monitoring calories. All I have been doing the whole time iseating my 6 Fat&Pro meals/day and carbing on the weekend, and I am losing fat likemad!

The real funny part is, I can't recall a time when I've felt...healthier? Call me crazy, butthis might have been my missing link here. I didn't even really crash during the 2 weekbreak-in (it ended up actually being 16 days in total). Plus my endurance in my workoutshas improved greatly.

The carb ups are MAD. About mid-afternoon after oatmeal and pancakes it feels likesomeone stuck a bike pump up my ass and inflated my back, legs and shoulders!

Thanks DH & IC.Anvil

P.S> quick question for DH or IC: Dr. D recomends cutting calories directly from fatinstead of total calories on the cutting phase of the diet. Has this worked for you guys,or do you keep the %ages the same and drop total cal? Just wondering if reducing fatintake too far during cutting will hinder test production too much.

Once you've adapted you can get the fat down to around 33% or so and be just fine forcutting. Just keep the CHO as always, and get the protein at 1.5g/lb of weight for somesecurity. After having gained the appetite for fat, your body will then progress to morebody fat instead of ingested fat. Keep it at this level at least though. If it gets intostarvation mode it will begin to sense a scarcity and fight you to hold fat. I'd reallyrecommend taking temps to compare to your basal number and use something likeHotRox to keep the thyroid going.

DH

HumanAnvil wrote:just wanted to chime in here:

I've been on the diet(if you can call it that) for about 2 months now (i think) and I amjust now going to start monitoring calories. All I have been doing the whole time iseating my 6 Fat&Pro meals/day and carbing on the weekend, and I am losing fat like

mad!

The real funny part is, I can't recall a time when I've felt...healthier? Call me crazy, butthis might have been my missing link here. I didn't even really crash during the 2 weekbreak-in (it ended up actually being 16 days in total). Plus my endurance in my workoutshas improved greatly.

The carb ups are MAD. About mid-afternoon after oatmeal and pancakes it feels likesomeone stuck a bike pump up my ass and inflated my back, legs and shoulders!

Thanks DH & IC.Anvil

P.S> quick question for DH or IC: Dr. D recomends cutting calories directly from fatinstead of total calories on the cutting phase of the diet. Has this worked for you guys,or do you keep the %ages the same and drop total cal? Just wondering if reducing fatintake too far during cutting will hinder test production too much.

Well tomorrow is my third carb-up weekend and so far things seem to be working.

As I mentioned before, I don't get mood swings like I used to get on my carb rich diet.I've also noticed a mild improvement in body composition (despite a static body weight).But most significantly, my strength seems to improving at a similar rate to when I did afew MAG-10 sessions.

Personally, I can't ever see myself going back to a more 'normal' diet, as the AD justworks so well. Another significant benefit is that all the AD meals are calorie dense, sodespite my limited appetite, I'm finding it really easy to pack away 4000k+ a daywithout really trying.

The hardest part I find is the weekends, all that milk and starch doesn not agree with myguts.

CA,You DO NOT want to crash, man. That is counterproductive. If you crash then you'venever fully adapted. Remember all the prior posts on adaptation? That is what you want.So what you don't feel jacked. That doesn't matter a lick. The PR's and the scale weightdoes. Sometimes I feel a mean pump, and sometimes it's mild. Just be confident that itworks independent of any subjective feelings. Your only real measure is something thatinvolves numbers not feelings. Ok?

Now as long as you are carbing for 36 hours and are getting at least 800g total for thefull load then you're cool.

Remember, the only true measure of anything in BB and PL is a numerical value. Therest if fluff and detail.

Now, if you want to play with it, just add some Vanadyl Sulfate (about 30-45mg dividedwith meals) during the load and use creatine monohydrate. This may satisfy any urge forbetter "feel". I've always had good results with Vanadyl Ph.

best,DH

JD,If you are like me then just cut out the milk entirely and stick with the starches.Combining the lactose from milk with my loads just bloats my fingers and makes my gutfeel like a rock.

Give it a try.

DH

Time for me to chime in here.

I embarked on the T-Dawg 2.0 on 7/5 and it was first foray into low carb dieting of anysort. Hell, it was my first real effort to reduce some bodyfat in over five years.

Anyway, I assumed I'd need the full 100 recommended grams of CHO to maximize myrecovery and training efforts (I race BMX bikes - an ATP/CP sport).

For the first week, I adhered to the 70/100gm CHO guidelines of the diet and felt GREATon the reduced carbs. Just winged it for a carb up day over the weekend - had a pizzaand ice cream meal and that was it.

During week two, I noticed I was having to almost force myself to eat carbs and startedexperimenting with my intake - got most days down to <60gms CHO and noticed I feltbetter and better - both general disposition as well as in training and recovery. Yetagain, half assed the carb/cheat day and even had a few beers.

Sometime during week three I knuckled down and read this ENTIRE thread in one sitting(geek alert) and was immediately convinced that I needed to make the move over to thefull-blown AD. For the third and final time, I winged a carb meal/day on Saturday, 7/23and decided to commit to the AD on 7/24.

This past week I stayed at 20-40gms CHO daily from Sunday through Friday (afterreading that in lieu of the 12 day induction you can complete a few 5/2 cycles to get tothe metabolic shift, I decided to opt for the latter since I have a major race coming upLabor Day weekend and didn't want to possibly lose a full week of training if I crashed assome posters have). All week I felt great and by last night, my skin was saran-wrap thinand tight. I'm not concerned about bodybuilding ends but I just had to hit a few shots inthe mirror I was so damn psyched at how much body comp change I'd experienced in3.5 weeks (rough stats below).

Today, I committed to a true AD carb up and hit LOTS of clean carbs all day long - flaxwaffles, oatmeal, fruit, a clif bar and some Barilla pasta. Funny thing is, for several daysI thought the waffles would be a taste of heaven but half way through them, I waswishing for an omelet or piece of meat.

Anyway, as to be expected, I feel somewhat bloated and crappy (sounds like I'm still inDH's self-described "metabolic purgatory", as to be expected for a few more 5/2 cyclessince I didn't do the full 12 days).

I hit an upper body workout which did go fine, but I didn't get anything special as far asa pump (if anything, the perception is the opposite since the saran wrap skin of the workweek disappeared after the first meal). I'm not complaining - just noting my experiencetoday. Like I said, after another few 5/2s I should be kicking ass.

Random stuff:

-I'm 6'1" and started out at about 208-210 with a guesstimated 12-14ish % BF. As of

last night, I was 201.5 on the same scale and then 203 a few minutes ago after a fullday of carbs. I didn't take any caliper or tape measurements and in hindsight, wish Ihad.

All I can say is I've lost BF judging by both clothes and mirror. I posted some semi-before shots last Friday in the pics forum and will take another round next Friday andpost a link here. Once I egt down to 8-9ish % BF, I'm going to look to add back on fiveor so pounds of muscle but primarily focus on strength.

-Eating 2,500-3,000 cals a day Supps include multis, fish caps, MSM and since lastweek, HOT-ROX.

-On a normal carb diet, I was the toxic avenger that nobody dared challenege to a fartwar. Damn if this diet hasn't cleaned up my act - I've got nada, zip, zilch in the way ofgas during the week. HOWEVER, after a day of carbs, my old self is back. Needless tosay, Mrs. Deinabolic is looking forward to me going back to meat, cheese and eggsalmost as much as I am.

-That's about it. Just want to thank DH, Barry, MDragon, IC and countless others fortheir input on this awesome thread. I've been training for 15 years and know how topush the iron in and out but have never really gotten into the minuteae of dieting untilnow. Needless to say, I'm going to be an ADer for life.

DNBLC

CA,

I'm not one of the veteran guys on the thread, but I have a few suggestions that may beworth trying.

1. Up your fats. Treat fats as the fuels they are. I think making the shift is a combinationeffect of low carbs plus HIGH fats (low carb alone is not enough). If your body maintainsa ready supply of dietary fats to burn, it will burn them. If the supply is high enough, itwill burn a lot of them. I believe that this is the cause of the energy increases thatpeople experience.

2. Up your water. This diet seems to thrive on high water intake. Water just flows rightthrough you. I know this has been true for me, and I get the sense from other postersas well. I wake up every morning needing a ton of water, and I am drinking over agallon a day.

3. Aim right for 30g of carbs per day. I made the mistake as I first started for shootingfor 0g carb per day (which is almost impossible, I actually ended up in the neighborhoodof 7g per day). Those 30g help prevent you from sinking into ketosis as I understand it.I had this revelation after DH's post about skimming between ketosis and carb burning,thanks DH!

4. Aim for 20g fiber per day. This amount seems to optimize my digestion on this diet.

5. Don't forget about fats on the weekend. Fats on the weekend are probably moreimportant than protein. They will keep your body from trying to shift back to carbburning only to make the shift again on Mon/Tues. This sounds like it may be happeningto you.

Best of luck on cracking this case.

Todd

Awesome Deinabolic,I'm convinced that the majority would excel on the AD if they just get fully adapted. Imean the real, deep adaptation that occurs after a few months. This is where you humbeautifully on the diet. Just getting past the purgatory and the fear of dropping carbs isthe deciding factor.

Even those who support LC diets, still want to serve two masters by assuming that CHOis always necessary to some degree or another on a daily basis. They want to dip theirtoes in but don't want jump in all the way. Keeps them from ever adapting and gettingthe real benefits. They never feel the real deal, man. It's a shame that brain washingand fear prevents many from trying such an easy and enjoyable diet.

Best,DH

It was DH that mentioned it and I believe he was refering to Heinz One Carb Ketchup.I'm not positive but I think the Nutrition Facts food label on the back says that oneserving (1 Tbsp) contains 5 Calories and 1g of Carbs (Sugars 1g). Don't quote me onthis but I believe this is true. Anyway, if you have a Super Wal-Mart, Krogers, Publix orHannaford you should be able to fine it. I'm sure a lot of local grocery stores would haveit too.

-BD

I never liked the PSMF type diets that suggest protein powder and oils only. That isassanine. You want and need the nutrient array in a variety of veggies and meats. Sorrybut a centrum just won't do it and neither would a super vitamin. Why? Because we'veonly identified a relative handful of nutrients in real food. The real deal just can't bebeat.

Also, meat is superior for fat burning because it is slower digesting. A quick protein (andany powder is much faster than a solid piece of meat) can run the risk of causing higherinsulin levels. Vince Gironda used to suggest nixing all dairy and going meat and veggiesfor the last bit of prep before a contest. The digestion also affords a caloric reduction viautilization expenditure (steak takes calories to digest) when compared to proteinpowders.

Don't get me wrong, I go 2-3 drink meals per day peppered in with my solid meals, andfeel this is the way to go. You will also feel WAY better and stronger on meat andveggies. When dieting, Steak is your friend. It gives strength like nothing else exceptmaybe liver.

So no, don't go all shakes. That will be sub-optimal in many ways. Just use them in asensible fashion.

I suppose I should share one of my absolute favorite supplements....

Dessicated liver tabs. Yep. Liver is an extremely good food for strength, the endurancelift is impressive, and there are elements in it that are anti-estrogenic. It contains all theessential aminos which makes it great to add to a meal to make sure you don't havecompromised protein usage due to an incomplete AA array from certain foods. This stuffreally helps with recovery after about a month or so.

Do a search on Jay Robb or Roger Riedinger (sp?) and you'll find two of my favoritesources. They use Argentinian cattle that is drug/hormone free. That is good, consideringall things pass through the liver of the cattle and then on to you.

Best,DH

toddjacobs13 wrote:I am curious what the posters on this board would consider to be minimum guidelines forvegetable intake. I personally have never been a big veggie fan, so I'm having a littletrouble finding the motivation to eat my veggies now.

Todd

Well Todd,Other than the fact that everyone's mother has always told them to eat thier vegetables;). Most posters on this forum, including myself, seem to function the best at around~20g of fiber. Though I personally get some of mine through supplements like psylliumhusk and milled flax seed, I try to not let this occupy more than 25% of my daily fiberintake. This leaves me with around 15g Fiber that I NEED to get every day from veggies.

DH posted a short list of veggies that have little impact a few pages ago, each of thesehave around 1-2g fiber per serving. I guess the long answer is you need plenty ofveggies, especially green and colorful ones. You knew this already though man!-CA.

I go with 6-7 servings, 3 are spinach, the others come from broccoli andzucchini...occasionally celery and cauliflower.

Remember there are tons of reasons to get your veggies. If you don't like chewing onlarge volumes of veggies, spinach cooks down quite a bit, especially in scrambled eggsand things like that.

I think this might have been one of the big problems I was having. Yesterday I drank aton, maybe 1.5 gallons total. I also took two Spike before my horizontal push/pullworkout. I beat my previous Bench PR by 16lbs, and my previous record in the row by25lbs. It wasn't even a "PR Day", I just felt too good to stop going. I think the goodfeelings were the result of a couple of things:

1.increased water intake

2.huge but quick carb load this weekend, I only loaded for 24hrs, to see how it wouldfeel. I took in around 750-800g carbs during this 24hr period though, so I only reallymodified the time I was loading; It made a big difference I think.

3.way more complex carbs this weekend, a lot of cereal, pasta, bread, crackers, etc.

4.dialed back the bacon and processed meats a bit (but I was eating a ton of it),replaced them with steak, pork, other unprocessed meats.

5.I can't discount the effect of the Spike, but I don't think it made that big of adifference.

I also examined my records this morning. As of yesterday I'm up to 171lbs, a 16lb.increase from when I started this diet 6 weeks ago. My caliper measurments haven'tchanged much, but my waist has shrunk by 1 inch.

Hey DH, you were right man! The numbers don't lie. Thanks a bunch guys!-CA.

2 tbsps of vinegar before a meal will reduce the spike in blood concentrations of insulinand glucose that come after a meal.

I also use 400-600mg of ALA per meal during the carb-ups.

Alright, Since starting the AD on July 4 here is where I am. My goal is to lose fat, keep/build strength. My main training is Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and complementary activities.

I've not paid much attention to calories. My carb ups are 36 hours and not too clean. Ijust took a week and a half off of training (coming off neck surgery so I have to take iteasy sometimes). Though I try to eat every 3 hrs I eat a lot of food and I eat itwhenever I want, or whenever I feel hungry.

I'm down to 204 consistently from 217.I feel better too.

I don't find it difficult to stay on, I don't crash and don't really have cravings. When I eata lot of carbs on the weekends I some times have GI 'disturbances'. I think this weekendit was from too much milk, which DH recommends you drop.

I'm doing no cardio outside of jiu jitsu. In the past I've gotten good results with theheavy bag version of High octane cardio. Soon I'll have a bag at my new place and Iexpect the last bit of fat to come off easier when I'm actually working out.

Overall I love the diet.

fiber update:

I've found some Low-Carb tortillas at Costco of all places, and the ingredients are allnatural, they even use whole wheat flour! The best part is that each one has 7 grams offiber in it and only 6 grams of carb-carbs in it. It's a pretty sweet deal if you ask me,throw one or two of these into your diet and you'll be AOK. Suggestions, quesadillas orsteak burrito with lots of cheese, and of course a lunch-wrap type of thing.

Lately I've been keeping the diet strict enough that I'm good with downing two of thesetortillas a day and having no problem staying at 30 grams of carbs a day. Hope thishelps some of ya

not to one up you, but if look for whole wheat tortillas made by "La Tortilla Company".8g fiber, 3g "carbs". good deal.

H.D., I find the AD to be LESS expensive than many nutritional approaches.

Olive oil is inexpensive and will serve as an excellent fat source. Chicken continues todrop in price. I'm finding boneless chicken breast for as low as 1.28/lb; buy in bulk. Andwhile beef continues to increase in cost, it can also be purchased in bulk. I suggest goingto the meat department in the evenings and speaking with a manager. I'm able topurchase beef for as low as a 1/lb. Veggie prices range a bit... Your carb-ups aren't toobad. Pasta is very reasonable in price, as is oatmeal.

This is a bland approach, but very sufficient in making the AD work for your body andwallet.

Good point Vasu. I find that it's waaaaay less expensive buying meat and cheese nowthat I don't have to worry about getting fat-free versions. Eggs are and will always be

cheap as dirt, same with bacon and tuna. Ground beef, if you wait for a sale and don'tmind the full fat variety, can be had for as little as 1$/LB. You can buy whole chickensfor a buck or two. I've been buying round cuts of steak for about $1.50/Lb. Bulk nutsand seeds. The most expensive thing is the fresh vegetables, and that's a cost prettymuch everyone on T-Nation has to bear, AD'ers or not. Not to mention the overallcalories are less than with other diets, (at least they have been for me.) I know I wasspending upwards of $50 per week when I was doing Massive Eating. Now that's down toabout $20-30 per week.-CA.

You're right about eggs, CA. They are cheap. And the great thing is that you can buythose in bulk, too. I'm all about bulk shopping. I consume anywhere from 2800 to 5600calories/day during the week, and am taking in between 10-12 thousand calories on theweekend; that's alot of food.

I learned before the AD to be a smart shopper and make friends at the grocery stores.It's amazing how readily folks will reduce the price if you buy a certain quantity, or ifyou're willing to pick the food up after 10 PM, or place standing orders -- stuff like that.

Really, my expense is in the fish oil, liver tabs, and ALA. But I purchase those productsin bulk, too. If it sounds intimidating to front the money, find a friend to split the cost.

Oh yeah, and the natty PB isn't cheap, but it's my "must-have" food on the weekends.

Get creative folks!

One theme I've read here is troubleshooting the diet when performance is lagging -whether it be feeing like crap or bottoming out during the week.One thing I've realized with this is that if you feel like crap during the week- your energyis low, etc You need to concentrate on manipulating your fats- and take my advice(because It has worked wonders since I've done it) go to your local store, and buy theudo's/coconut/various nut oil blends. It makes all the difference in the world, you willfeel great all the time, and your metabolism will thank you!

The man speaks the truth. I've been feeling better and better since I stopped eatingsuch a high percentage of sat. fat and replaced it with more poly's and mono's. I alsorocked the 24hr carb-up last week, and felt much better with that than the 36.-CA.

With respect to increased fat intake, please note the following:

I use/suggest:

20% polyunsats (Not much more)of this, 3+ g of EPA/DHA combo is a must

30% sat fats as they are needed for elevated T levels and strength.

50% mono fats as these are the primo quality fats that have many health benefits anddo well for strength and hormones also.

We want our poly's to be lowest but well considered. Even moderate levels of PUFA's willdrop T levels among other undesirable effects. A true case of too much of a good thing.

Best,DH

And I noticed that I get the distinction of being # 800 on the thread. Ha, Ha. I was 700too! These early Saturday mornings work out great while all you lazy suckers are in bed!

Deinabolic,There's no problems with also upping Sats and Monos to an equal level once thenecessary precautions are covered with proper PUFA's like fish oil. Even higher if youlike. This should really be predicated on age, health, family history, etc... By getting agood 30% as a minimum you should be cool with having plenty of T material. I'll usuallyeat about 250g per day of fat. Of this I get about 40g of PUFA, 120g MUFA, and 90g ofSFA (sat fats).

As you can see I don't get too nit picky about it as long as MUFA and PUFA are up tosnuff. Plus I rely heavily on olive oil for calories with my shakes, salads, and meats.Good for the cholesterol and much more. For my PUFA, my main sources are omegaeggs, seeds, nuts, fish oil, some flax oil, and add-ins here and there. Sunflower seeds,walnuts, and almonds (as well as natty peanut butter and almond butter) are all some ofmy biggest sources beyond the oils (fish and flax)

Just think sensible ranges instead of exact amounts. No sense getting anybody crazy.

Best,DH

Dudes, I gotta admit that I have been drastically low in mono's. I need to work on thatnext week. S'alright, means I know another thing that I could do to feel even better.With that said, here is a list of sources of MUFAs and their relative percents of thesetypes of fat versus other types:

Olive oil (73 per cent) rapeseed oil (60 per cent) hazelnuts (50 per cent) almonds (35per cent) Brazil nuts (26 per cent) cashews (28 per cent) avocado (12 per cent) sesameseeds (20 per cent) pumpkin seeds (16 per cent).

Guess I'll go pick up some hazelnuts, damn. Thanks for the post DH, extremely helpful.-CA

Deinabolic wrote:Kind of a loaded question but has anybody ever seen any rough figures as to how muchfat a Foreman grill typically drains from a piece of meat? I know that it's probably nearimpossible to quantify but just curious since all label figures are pre-cooking.

I assumed that it did, but apparently it doesn't make much of a difference. Check it out:

Does The George Foreman Grill Work?

Long known for his punch, heavyweight boxing champ George Foreman is now alsoknown for his chops and ribs and anything else you can cook on his grill.George Foreman sells his grill as a healthy alternative to conventional cooking. He alsoclaims his grill is faster with tastier results and less cleanup. NewsCenter 5's SusanWornick decided to check out the claims.

The test involved six identical hamburgers, with three cooked on a gas grill and three onthe Foreman grill.

The Foreman grill was easier, cooler and faster, and, as Foremen promised, the fatappeared to be cooking off. But it also dripped off the burger on the gas grill at about

the same rate.

Foreman claims his method cuts the fat, but researchers at the Good HousekeepingInstitute compared the fat in a hamburger cooked on a Foreman Grill to hamburgerscooked on a broiler and a skillet. The results? No significant difference in fat amounts.Most of the drippings are simply meat juice and water.

I know it isn't as scientific a test as you may have liked, but it's one of the only ones Ican find.-CA

Had a good PM on an individual using 10mg 6x per day on the load and losing hisappetite. This has happened to me as well. Below is what I responded with.

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VS is a strange animal. On the one hand it can give a wicked pump and help withsupercompensation, on the other hand there is reason to think that one might lessen theinsulin response of the loading period if we are using a mineral compound that does it'sjob in it's place. Also VS is something to watch if you are not pretty lean to begin with.There really hasn't been any insulin mimicker or glucose disposal agent that has beenshow to partition to muscle and not fat. Insulin (and it's consequent mimickers etc..)increases the storage in muscle and fat. Now on the AD we see improved partitioningdue to the fat adaptation. I do not know if the same can be said with VS. I like the way itgives a good pump, especially Vanadyl PH, but I try to use it for a short while and thentake a good while off. The research I've seen shows that VS can be a tricky animal, andthere is still debate about it's mode of action. I'd say that if your appetite is diminishedthen the VS is working too well and is keeping insulin under control which will signalsatiety. This isn't good as insulin has anabolic and general properties that aren'tmimicked by VS (probably many more than we know, too). As an alternative to VS, I'veplayed with some slo-Niacin. This acts as a vasodilator which should in turn allow formore nutrient transfer during the load. Dosage is highly individual and should be startedon the recommended low end and moved up slowly. I like ALA because it increases yourbody's own sensitivity to the actions of endogenous insulin. This would have more of anoptimizing/priming effect. I don't feel the same pump as with VS, but I think it may bethe better long term option. I also try to use things like vitamin E, Magnesium, biotin,etc.. that will maximize the utilization of insulin naturally. I've tried metformin too, and itwas a really powerful pump, but of course it hasn't been show to be selective enough tonot worry about fat gain, and there are potential leptin issues that could alter fat/carbburning. And again, anytime something is doing the job of insulin, we are theoreticallymissing out on the many known and unknown benefits of the real deal. I've also foundthat adequate sodium intake on the load leads to a better pump and fullness. Isometimes begin my load with chicken noodle soup, saltines, gatorade, and sometomatoes with salt or V8 juice. If I get the dosage right, my arms begin to feel pumpedwithin an hour or so. Creatine should also help with the cell volumizing anabolic triggersthat we are attempting to capitalize on during the load. So with respect to VS, I'm torn.It's Ok to use from time to time, but the other products would pay off better dividends inthe long run in many ways.

best,DH

Thank you, DH. Good information.

I'm a BIG fan of ALA. I use 200-300/meal during the week and double that dosage onthe weekends. It is a cost-effective, and powerful supplement to add to the arsenal.

During the week, I use liver tabs with every meal to get additional B6 to aid in themetabolism of amino acids and fatty acids.

During the carb-up, I switch to a B-complex. I take it with every meal. Perhaps this is abit wasteful, but I feel that the aid it provides in the metabolism of CHO is worth it.

But VS has been tricky... I'm not sure about it. Again, thank you for the usefulinformation.

It passes with time. About 2-3 months sometimes. I never experience it anymore. Aftera few loads, you hold the glycogen much better and start to really get long termadaptation. Use some tic-tacs, sugarless gum and mouthwash. Think there are someveggies and/or plants that can be used to help this too.

Order grilled veggies as a substitute for the taters, bro. You'll look manly and yourenhanced physique in a few months will pay dividends. ;-0.

DH

Charles Atlas:

I count calories on the weekends. But really, I focus more on total weekly calories. If Iset a goal of X number of calories for the week, I stagger my daily total calories --During the week, I consume between 2850 calories/day to 5800 calories/day. On theweekend, I consume between 10-12 grand calories/day. I consume heavy CHO for 36hours, and then begin to eliminate CHO from the meals in the latter half of the day, butstill keep the caloric value of the remaining meals quite high.

Charles Atlas:

I predominately go by feel. If my body needs more food, I don't deny it. But generally, Iconsume lower calories on Monday and Thursday, moderate on Tuesday and Friday, andhigher on Wednesday.

About a month ago, I worked out various meal combinations that I can consume for agiven caloric total. So, if it is a lower caloric day, I know that any meal from that list isfair game. Same for the moderate and higher caloric days. I have a wide range of calorictotals from 2850 to 5800.

The weekends are a different story. I'm still experimenting. But the rule is to engorge onclean CHO.

And yes, I'm bulking, but I also demand much of my body: I utilize a modified WSBconjugate method on Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I've been dragging thesled in some capacity five days a week for the past two and half weeks. I'm also intoballroom dance; that occupies at least an hour of intense practice a day.

Between college and post-college sporting activities, and a fair number of years carryinga ruck and rifle, I think my overall GPP (especially in my lower body) is high.

Anyhow, the weekends are a challenge. I often have to force myself to get through someof the meals, and I've not relied upon CHO as a predominant percentage for some years.So, it is quite difficult to get 60% CHO because I generally don't enjoy CHO foodsources.

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