I am having an interview with Julie Anne Stewart at

Dandenong and Faye Chandley is with us.

REDACTED

POC: Now Julie the first thing I always tell people that until you tell me

otherwise what you tell me is confidential, I must say if what you

are going to tell me constitutes criminal conduct which I suspect it

probably does you have got a right to go to the police and report it

to the police, you don't have to do that there is no obligation to do it

but I must tell you that you have that right and indeed I would

encourage you to exercise it. It you don't want to exercise it that

another matter I am perfectly happy to listen to you - what you have

got to say in confidence. Perhaps the best thing to do is to tell me

what it's about first and then we can talk about that later.

Can I just interrupt you.

POC Yes

If that happens are you obligated to under the law to take that

further is ....

POC No I now obliged to .......... the report. I can for instance conduct

an entirely private hearing if I wanted to and the people are

agreeable - so what I am telling you and I repeat if you say to me

now took at least at this stage what I am going to tell you I require

you to undertake to me that you will keep confidential until t tell you

otherwise l will do so. We can discuss then after you have told me

what you ought to do.

JAS: OK.

POC OK. Now do you mind if t ask you a few questions.

1

COM.0130.0003.0052_R

JAS : You can ask me anything you need ...

POC How old are you?

JAS: I am 21.

POC: 21 and I think Faye told me that you approached her the other night

- you saw her in the supermarket

JAS : Yeah it would have been about three weeks ago.

POC And what do you do - do you work?

JAS: Yes I do, I work for an engineering company - I do accounting.

POC Whereabouts?

REDACTED , JAS : yeah

POC I see. I could almost see you from my office.

And you were a student at Holy Family Doveton.

JAS: Yes I was.

POC: When did you go there?

JAS : I went there - I think it would have been in 1981.

2

COM.0130.0003.0053_R

POC Yes, and obviously you ..

JAS: 81 or 82 - I started prep there.

POC You started prep

JAS: Yeah.

POC: Did you stay there until when?

JAS: I stayed there until September 1986.

POC: So you would have been in about grade 5. And you obviously

would have known Fr. Searson.

JAS: Yes, definitely.

POC: And who were your early teachers.

JAS: Early teachers - grade 3 was Mrs. Wright, grade 4 was Mrs Barrett.

POC: That's Shirley Barrett.

JAS: That right, she's lovely.

POC: Well I was going to speak to her today but I haven't ....

JAS: Oh sure, she would certainly remember.

3

COM.0130.0003.0054_R

POC: Yeah.

JAS: Most people do.

POC: And who was teaching you in grade 4?

JAS: Mrs. Barrett.

POC: And grade 5?

JAS Mr Loch - I was in a composite grade 5 and 6 with Mr Loch.

POC: Well now you had some incident, tell me about it. Well incidences

if

JAS: Well there was one major incident but there was a bit of a build up

to it. When we had reconciliation - it was in the private little box so

to speak so no one could see what was going on in there or

anything and Fr. Searson would always make sure that you sat on

his knee - he always - come and sit on Father's knee - if you didn't

sit on his knee he would get very distressed that you would not sit

on his knew.

POC: By distressed you mean cross.

JAS: Cross - at first it would be come on, come on and sit on Father's

knee and he couldn't understand why you didn't want to - it was

basically an order - you really had no choice. You know so you

4

COM.0130.0003.0055_R

would sit on his knee and he would sit and actually his hand was

always placed here

POC: His hand was placed on you

JAS: Placed on your thigh and he would always have his hand moving

up and down on the thigh.

POC: And you would have been wearing a dress.

JAS: Dress, track suit pants, just the uniform that it was - depending ..

POC: Normally when you were wearing a dress your legs would be bare.

JAS: Yes that's right - most definitely.

POC: This was in - what grade were you in?

JAS: I was in grade - this would have been when he was there - grade 3,

yeah and grade 4 and he - that's how it was for grade 3 - we did

have first communion with him and then it was grade 4 - that's right

he always use to say give Father a kiss and tell me that you love

me. Tell Father that you love him. I thought that was a bit - but

you look up to a priest like you look up to your parent - you just

trust them - you don't know any different and there was one time

because this is the time that I went in and I remember - I remember

how my hair was - I had plaits - it was Winter - I had the track suit,

full track suit on and I went in and I was very on edge that day

5

COM.0130.0003.0056_R

POC: Why was that?

JAS: I think that I just didn't like going to reconciliation because he was

just always very touchy and he use to say things like "Give Father a

kiss, God will be happy if you give Father a kiss and a cuddle".

POC: Before this time how many times would you have sat have been

asked to sit on his knee?

JAS: Every time - we use to go to reconciliation every fortnight - it had to

be every fortnig hi.

POC: And each time you had reconciliation

JAS: Always sat on his knee and he would sit you right where you could

feel

POC: Feel his penis

JAS: You could definitely feel his penis. I didn't know at the time what ....

because I .. you could feel it.

POC: And it was erect?

JAS Yeah definitely.

POC And this rubbing of your thigh was that

6

COM.0130.0003.0057_R

JAS: That was just caressing you - there was nothing in that at the time

POC: Yes.

JAS: This time I went in and I sat on his knee again and give the usual

kiss and told him that I loved him and then he sat me right where I

could feel and then he grabbed his hand and he absolutely moved

rubbed his hand right across there.

POC: When you say right across - right across your genital

JAS: That's right.

POC Right across your vagina.

JAS: That's it - absolutely - yeah and I totally freaked out I was totally so

distressed I can't explain it to you because - the trust - I just got up

after that and I ran - and he had this smile on his face

POC: On this particular day

JAS: On this particular day I was running out to Mrs Barrett and I was so

distressed and she was trying to calm me down and I remember

looking at all my friends and they were all - they were student in

that class and they were like - they had no idea what had gone on

and Mrs Barrett was trying to ask me what happened and clam me

down and I couldn't say because I was so distressed and then she

took me to see Mr Sleeman and he was trying to calm me down but

7

COM.0130.0003.0058_R

I didn't want him to touch me or anything - I just didn't want him to -

and then he rang my Mum and I was not allowed to go to

reconciliation after that and ..

POC: Yeah and you say Mr Sleeman - you saw Shirley Barrett

immediate ly

JAS:

POC

JAS:

Yeah immediately yeah I went running to her straight after.

And then you were taken to Graham Sleeman and he tried to calm

you down. And what happened did he calm you down.

Yeah he always use to tell me that I was his little girl - he was really

good - yeah he said he was going to ring my Mum and I think I was

worried that she would be angry at me - I don't know why.

POC Yeah I know - what year would this have been now?

JAS: "85 - 84, 86 I went to yeah "85 I'd say - yeah because he came

there at '84 - yeah it would have been '85.

POC: And you said you had some of your friends who were outside.

Were they waiting

JAS: They were actually sitting there - some had already been in and

li1!D some were waiting to go in and actually one of my friends liJj•t+ttJI liii!fflll see her now and then - I saw her this morning on the train

and she said to me that at that time she didn't if she went in after

me or before me but she didn't sit on knee and he was so angry

8

COM.0130.0003.0059_R

POC:

JAS:

with her - he was really frustrated because she wouldn't sit on his

knee. She remembers that because she remembers that was the

day that I went running out - she remembers that very clearly.

Where does REDACTED live

She lives at REDACTED , Doveton.

POC: Ah does she .. ....... I'm really very familiar with Oandenong I've

been up and down those streets often ... Do you think she would

have a chat with me.

JAS: Yeah, I asked her actually if she would because I want to - I'd had

so many people want to things and this and nothing has ever been

done and it's just been left for so long and I am absolutely sick of it

- he's been there for so long it's not funny and I can't understand

when some people say there is not enough evidence - I mean what

evidence was - that's wrong what he did - what evidence is there.

POC: The evidence you have just told me is evidence.

JAS: Exactly, well I can't understand why it had taken - well it taken me a

long time to realise in a way that what he did was really totally

wrong, because as you grow older you learn and I am not going to

come out and tell my parent exactly - I mean I thought - couldn't

come out and say straight away Oh he touched me he did this

because ..

9

COM.0130.0003.0060_R

POC: I know .. I've heard people just like you say that a hundred time -

thousand time - It's just the way it happens. Tell me this you

always had some - any friends whose name - there islsl@•t+WI

REDACTED JAS: - ah I can't remember.

POC: Do you know ~lsr_v _ _ ~

JAS ~IBT_v __ ~I very well - ~IB_Tv _ _ ~I and I have grown up together -

yeah

POC: Well she remembers you - she remembers that incident quite well

and I've seen her and now tell me this did you tell - did Graham ring

up your Mother.

JAS: Yeah

POC: And did you not tell your mother much about it?

JAS: No, she knows only now. She knew before actually I probably told

her a couple of years ago what actually happened and she is just

very angry because they all went down - the whole group of them

went to - and I suppose she was a bit disappointed - she said why

didn't you tell me what exactly happened and it is hard for me to

say well you know I couldn't actually say the words - I was young - I

didn't - I felt ashamed - I felt

POC Does your father

;o

COM.0130.0003.0061_R

JAS: My father - no - he knew not long ago. And my brother just found

out a couple of weeks ago.

POC: How old is your brother?

JAS: My brother isi;.

POC: I see and who told him?

JAS: I did.

POC: And you had some counselling did you?

JAS: Yes I did.

POC: From whom?

JAS: A Leigh Goldman in St Kilda.

POC: And how long after this event did you have counselling?

JAS: I had it when I was 18.

POC: And between that time when you turned 19 and went to Leigh

Goldman did you tell anyone else about it?

JAS: Yes I did because when I was at St John's I told um - I went to see

counselling - I was very confused growing up and I always felt after

- I always felt very different and I always wondered why me for

11

COM.0130.0003.0062_R

quite a while - and any way when I use to go to counselling to see

Sister Colleen at St John's and she talked to Michael Quinn who

was the principal head master at the time and we went to see him

and he was going to help me out and I gave him all the information

I had on it and he took ...

POC: Did you tell him what you told me?

JAS: No - I still couldn't say it for a long time.

POC: Well that what I am really asking you did you tell anyone about the

actual?

JAS: Yes I did Leigh Goldman.

POC: Leigh Goldman - but you were 18 then - so

JAS: Before then I guess because um in hospital but I only told .... she

wouldn't remember.

POC: Why were you in hospital?

JAS: Because I attempted suicide.

POC: How old were you then?

JAS: I was 15.

POC: What did you do?

12

COM.0130.0003.0063_R

JAS I told quite a few - I think 36 Panedine - and I don't know how many

Panadol - it's just that I had had too many let downs and this is the

lead up to - that was when I gave all the information to Fr Searson

because we saw him at St John's quite a few time - he use to do

church things there and it use to really distress me a lot.

POC: At St Johns - when - sorry to be jumping around

JAS: That's OK.

POC: But when you had this incident you told him - and told Graham and

Graham told your mother something but not the details did you

leave that school then?

JAS: I left - no I stayed on for a bit longer.

POC You stayed on at Holy Family until

JAS: Until September 1989

POC: And then where did you go?

JAS: St Mary's

POC: Yes I see. So you went but you went to St Mary's that year?

JAS: No the next year.

13

COM.0130.0003.0064_R

POC: And then you stayed at St Mary's for how long?

JAS: A year only ...

POC: And then you went to St John's - and when you were at St John's

you had this suicide attempt did you?

JAS: Yes I did.

POC: And preceding that you were saying some thing which was leading

to

JAS: Yeah because so many people wanted to help and I kept getting

built up that finally something was going to happen to Fr Searson

and I really thought something was finally going to happen because

the head master was going to help out and so was

POC: What head master?

JAS Michael Quinn and he brought me in and said no no we can't help

you out and he didn't give me any of my files back or anything - any

card that I had or anything on - or anything - he just kept it all and it

was such a let down for me I can't explain to you because I trusted

so many people to help me and I just thought I can't believe this I

had been so let down and then

POC: You told him did you?

JAS: Yeah I told him

14

COM.0130.0003.0065_R

POC:

JAS:

POC:

JAS:

POC:

JAS:

POC:

JAS:

FC

JAS

POC:

That you had been

Yeah

In the way you described it to me?

Yeah interfered with- yeah - Sister Colleen

Sister Colleen - you told Sister Colleen

Sister Colleen - yes I did.

The other Sister Colleen

I don't know if she is at St John's still - you could find out.

She's a Presentation sister

Do you know who I am talking about?

Just in case you can't hear the tape Faye Chandley says Sister

Colleen is a Presentation Sister so we will be able to follow her up

through the CEO anyway. And Michael Quinn was then the

headmaster of St John's?

JAS: He's not know.

15

COM.0130.0003.0066_R

POC: And now Patrick Power is down there and were you there when

Patrick Power was there?

JAS: Yeah.

POC: Did you tell him anything?

JAS: No, I gave up - I was very bitter after believe me.

POC: And do you know where Michael Quinn is?

JAS: Isn't he in charge of

FC: He is headmaster at Sunshine.

POC: And Julie when you gave him the card?

JAS: I had a police officer chase up after all this - his name was I think

IBTV lknew it was REDACTED or something - it sounds really

funny I know but

POC: I don't know

JAS That was - he came - now he said someone was writing

anonymous letters saying that people were still getting interfered

with or something like that and he thought it was me sending them

and I said oh no I have not been sending them

POC But I could give you some information

'16

COM.0130.0003.0067_R

JAS: Yeah - he was going around and he came and wrote a statement

and asked me and I don't really remember much about all that.

POC: Did he come and take a statement here?

JAS: Yeah he took it

POC: Did he take it on tape or write it down.

JAS: No he wrote it.

POC: Did you sign it?

JAS: Yes.

POC: Do you have a copy of it?

JAS: No.

POC: Tell me his name again lfid•7ttilf

JAS: lPi'r1tJIJ- I did get a copy of it and I gave all that to Michael Quinn

and he took it all off me and never gave it back - what I'm saying -

the Catholic system is just

POC: Let's just get the facts on him - the - but REDACTED

JAS: Yeah - but he's not doing it all

17

COM.0130.0003.0068_R

POC Dandenong Police Station

JAS: I've got no idea where he was from - I had a card on him - I've got

no idea.

POC: Did he say he was from the child exploitation squad?

JAS: Yeah.

POC: He did say that did he?

JAS: Yeah.

POC: And when do you think that was that he interviewed you?

JAS: That was before I

POC: Had a go.

JAS Attempted suicide - um the build up to all of that too -

POC: That would be about six years ago?

JAS: 1991 yep 1991 - actually two days after New Year - January the

third.

POC: He saw you or you went yourself that sort of thing

18

COM.0130.0003.0069_R

JAS: He saw me before.

POC: You saw this other chap was

JAS: Yeah in August 15.

POC: So you saw him on January 2 or 3 of 1991 and it was August 15

JAS: That I attempted suicide

POC: Well I'm glad you didn't succeed.

JAS: No, well so am I because I certainly

POC: You were going ... .. anyway that is fine but you were - it was after

you sawliiR•&fi' that you gave Quinn the statement and some

other documents - what were the documents?

JAS: There was a card which REDACTED was what he was doing - just

basically all the information that I had that I knew - basically that

was ..

POC: Had you written out some stuff yourself?

JAS: I write poetry and stories and all that stuff.

POC: But had you written about this incident had you?

JAS: In my writing?

19

COM.0130.0003.0070_R

POC: Yeah

JAS Yeah

POC: And you gave some of that ...

JAS: No, that's all personal for me.

POC: I see but what I was really asking you didn't - apart from the

statement you made to liJ9•1rttJI you didn't write just a brief

description or a

JAS: Yes I did and then I find something - he could have wrote

something.

POC:

POC:

JAS:

mBI -Is this- yes its:

Um

Did you

No, no with Michael Quinn - that's what I am saying - and I signed

something with him - he sort of briefed out - I'm trying to remember

all these - he typed sort of brief something out how it all - what was

going on and this and that and then um - I didn't feel comfortable to

be honest I was there because I was sort of forced by Sister

Colleen because she really wanted me to do something about it

and I did too but I suppose that because I was just a bit

20

COM.0130.0003.0071_R

POC:

JAS:

POC

JAS:

POC

apprehensive so to speak because Catholic - I just didn't - not that I

- I am putting down the Catholic Church - it is the people in it not

the actual - but I'm just saying I wasn't very comfortable so I didn't

say everything because I thought "You are not going to help me"

and I was rig hi. He didn't.

And at this stage you told your Mum and Dad very little?

Yes.

What happened - if I can just jump back

Yes that is fine

When Graham Sleeman told your Mother about this incident you

didn't go to confession again?

JAS: Never.

POC And you stayed at the school for a while longer but then were you -

what caused you to go to St Mary's?

JAS: I was just - I couldn't - I was a very distressed child - very - I

needed to get away and start fresh - I thought I did - because it was

just - I couldn't - I felt very alone but people - I suppose because

they knew something went down and I didn't like it.

POC How did you persuade your Motherto

21

COM.0130.0003.0072_R

JAS: Well I was at my friend's place and I was taking to her saying I

wanted - well actually one of my friends

everything about me - she knows.

POC: li{ijf;i?

REDACTED JAS : - she knows everything .

POC: Where is she?

REDACTED

JAS She lives in Dandenong North - between REDACTED

knows

- she

knows every little thing that has gone on in my life - so there's one.

POC: Do you know where she lives?

JAS : Yeah I do.

POC: Well what's the address?

REDACTED JAS: North Dandenong.

POC: Have you told her you are going to talk to me?

JAS : No.

POC: Wou ld she talk to me?

JAS: Yeah - she'd let you know what's gone on .

22

COM.0130.0003.0073_R

POC: Have you got a phone number?

JAS: l;J9•1ttill and she works for the North Melbourne Football Club.

The MCG

POC: I can still say I barrack for Collingwood.

JAS: So do I?

POC: But I'm also Chairman of the Appeals Tribunal of the AFL so I'm

supposed to impartial - but you've got to have a team. Do you

barrack for Collingwood?

JAS: Yeah I do.

POC: I don't know how we'll go . .... In private I am very worried about the

Magpies ... But soll)j~*W

JAS: She's my best - most I could tell her anything and she'd

POC: And you did tell her did you?

JAS: Everything.

POC And so you were telling me this in the context of changing schools

that you were

JAS: I just felt I really felt that I was always emotional there. I was

always crying - I was always seeking attention of some sort and I

23

COM.0130.0003.0074_R

just needed to get away. I needed to start afresh. I wanted to

move on and my Mum and I she was talking about it with my Dad

exactly the same day and I came home troml;19•741 saying I

wanted to change schools and Mum said "Well that's funny

because your father and I were talking about it" and the next week I

was at St Mary's

POC: Truly.

JAS: It did not take long.

POC: Were you the principal there then?

Yes.

POC: Did l;ii•t+ff stay on at Doveton.

JAS: No [tj~ttlwasn't at no, no she is just a friend that I tell everything

to. She is like my sort of counsellor so to speak.

POC: How old is she?

JAS: She is 22.

POC: She ..... But where did she go to school?

JAS: She went to school at Dandenong North and Dandenong High.

POC: Well how -

24

COM.0130.0003.0075_R

JAS: How do I know her?

POC: Well how did you keep so friendly with a girls whose going to

another school. Well I know kids who do ..

JAS: She lived down the street - there you go.

POC: OK. So you were neighbours.

JAS Neighbours - yes.

POC: Did you see Sister Colleen at St Mary's?

JAS: No I saw another lady that that put me onto Mary West.

POC: Who was that

F.C. (Inaudible)

POC: What did you tell her?

JAS: To be honest I really can't remember - because it was such a blur

just towards the end - I loved St Mary's more than I loved Holy

Family and I was at Holy Family a lot longer but um but it's always

such a blur what I use to go in and talk to her about I honestly can't

remember.

POC: Would she

25

COM.0130.0003.0076_R

FC: Yes she is.

POC: Would she have notes do you think?

FC: Whether she has the notes or whether they became the property of

the monastery there is a possibility they were shredded when the

centre was closed, but I could follow that up I know where she is.

POC: I'd very obliged if you did because when you say she was part of

what? The media

F.C. She was and Services Division which was acceptable to both

the Government, School also the system

POC: Fine - why did you do that because you perceived something.

F.C Julie asked to see me.

POC: I see and did Julie tell you what had happened.

F.C. Yes she did. She was quietly distressed and 1 ............ ..

talk with the grade 5 and 6 students about rights and keeping

themselves safe and no one had any right to touch them. That we

precipitated that ......

POC And she told you what she told me?

26

COM.0130.0003.0077_R

FC Exactly but didn't go into the detail. She indicated the context

and she was too upset to talk directly ......

JAS: Yes, I still can't even say it now. I get

FC: I contacted Fr. Julian Langridge who was acting ......... for four year

and Ros was coming in to do some counselling with Julie and I

contacted Julie's mother. I had my notes

POC: O.K. well that's fine. I have seen a reference to ......

(Inaudible)

How long after that did you go to St John's?

JAS: 1988.

POC: I see and when you were at St John's you had this incident where

you endeavoured to tell Michael Quinn

JAS: That was 1988 - my teacher was Mr. Colvin who was my home

room teacher. Mr. Colvin goes to Holy Family parish - do you know

Mr. Colvin? Does he like Fr. Searson because I have a feeling that

he does because we had a big disagreement about Fr. Searson

and I didn't like I didn't liked Mr Colvin either but that was because

he was friendly I didn't like any man who was over friendly so I was

an awful student to him very hard to get on with so to speak.

POC: When you say friendly then you thought he might be going to do

something

27

COM.0130.0003.0078_R

JAS: Yes I did because I did his hand would come and I couldn't stand it

any teacher who did that or anybody or anyone with the same hand

or anything I freaked out totally - definitely. Yeah he knew

something was ...... but I never really told him.

POC: Then O.K. who was your next teacher - we will plod through your

course?

JAS: Year 8 was Mrs Miss Pasquina she didn't know anything that went

on in my life.

POC: O.K.

JAS Year 9 was Mr Kent - nor did he. Year 10 was Mr. Livingston - I

was very emotional in that year I think because at that stage of 15

or 16 you are learning a lot about yourself - you're learning a lot

about what's going on with yourself

POC: Things are happening.

JAS: It's all starting basically it's all starting to come together and that

was 1991 when I attempted suicide and a lot was going on

emotionally with me - boy friends were coming on the scene and

that was all freaky for me. Mr. Livingston didn't do anything - that

was when I was seeing Sister Colleen.

28

COM.0130.0003.0079_R

POC: So you were then seeing Sister Colleen and then when you had

your attempted suicide and you went to hospital you told the nurse

you think.

JAS:

POC:

JAS:

POC:

JAS:

POC:

Yeah I did I told the nurse.

What hospital were you in?

Dandenong

Who was your doctor.

I've no idea because I only went once or twice

August 15 you would have been in hospital - and how long were

you in hospital?

JAS: I was in hospital until August - that was a Thursday I got out on

Monday morning.

POC: That was 15 to 19 August 1991. And were are the records of that.

And you think you told a nurse.

JAS: Because she came and said to me I told her and she said I had a

bastard do that to me stuff them all.

POC: You don't remember her name -

29

COM.0130.0003.0080_R

JAS I've got no idea. She has got so many patients she came in - even

when she finished work she came in to see me - sat down and

talked to me and told me that she had someone do that to her and

POC: Alright when you came out of hospital

JAS: Sister Colleen came here and I was angry at her I did not want to

see her I did not want to see her because she let me down and I

POC

JAS

went to see her the day before I took the tablet because I needed

to talk to someone I was going absolutely crazy - I had to talk to her

and she - I was talking to IBTV lin the hallway and I was talking

to IBTV lsaying - I was upset about something - I can't

remember what I was saying and lBTV lwas trying to calm me

down and then I said I've got to go and she was making me laugh

and joke and I went to see Sister Colleen

~lsr_v __ ~l was making you

l~sr_v __ ~I was trying to calm me down and I went to see Sister

Colleen and she said you are ten minutes late and that was it and I

said right.

POC So you took the drastic step.

JAS Yeah I real ly make my mind up what I was going to do and then

that same day or so I was seeing some boy at the time - nothing

serious - and he said I don't know whether I like you any more - so

little things triggered me off and that was it.

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POC: And you had treatment stomach pump and all that

JAS Yeah yeah

POC And when Sister Colleen came here.

JAS She came here - she wanted to see me at the hospital - I would

have probably got up and hit her. I was very angry.

POC: And when she came did you ...

JAS I sat there, I couldn't look at her - I couldn't look I was so angry at

her and she keep wanting me to see her afterwards and I think I

went a couple of times after - I was so angry at her and she kept

wanting me to see her afterwards and I think I went a couple of

times after but I just wanted nothing to do with her - absolutely

nothing to do with her and I never saw her after that.

POC: And you hadn't discussed this with - you were seen by the police

very early in January and when do you think you spoke to Quinn

and gave him amongst other things the police statement?

JAS: I was still in the summer uniform

POC: I've got six sons, I'd be no good as a ..... .

JAS Summer uniform OK it was the first term.

POC: O.K. and you didn't hear from him again after that did you?

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