plaintiff's motion to determine the propriety of ncaas in

IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA

JAKE CORMAN, in his official capacity as Senator from the 34th Senatorial District of Pennsylvania and Chair of the Senate Committee on Appropriations; and ROBERT M. McCORD, in his official capacity as Treasurer of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Plaintiffs, v. THE NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, Defendant, v. PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY,

Defendant.

No. 1 MD 2013

ORDER

AND NOW, this ______ day of _____________, 2014, upon consideration

of Plaintiffs’ motion to determine the propriety of the National Collegiate Athletic

Association’s (“NCAA”) invocation of the common interest/joint defense privilege

in communications between the NCAA and the Big Ten Conference and any

response thereto, it is hereby ORDERED that the motion is granted:

Received 11/24/2014 Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania

Filed 11/24/2014 Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania1 MD 2013

2

NOW THEREFORE,

1. The NCAA is prohibited from invoking the common interest/joint

defense privilege with respect to any communications between the

NCAA and the Big Ten Conference;

2. The NCAA shall re-produce Donald Remy for deposition in order to

answer any question Plaintiffs were prevented from asking based on

the NCAA’s invocation of the common interest/joint defense

privilege.

ANNE E. COVEY, Judge

IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA

JAKE CORMAN, in his official capacity as Senator from the 34th Senatorial District of Pennsylvania and Chair of the Senate Committee on Appropriations; and ROBERT M. McCORD, in his official capacity as Treasurer of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Plaintiffs, v. THE NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION, Defendant, v. PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY,

Defendant.

No. 1 MD 2013

PLAINTIFFS’ MOTION TO DETERMINE THE PROPRIETY OF NCAA’S INVOCATION OF PRIVILEGE IN COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THE

NCAA AND THE BIG TEN CONFERENCE

Plaintiffs bring this motion to ask the Court to determine whether the NCAA

may, after extensive consultation and briefing on the attorney-client privilege,

invoke a different privilege to prevent Plaintiffs from learning the details of the

NCAA’s extensive communications concerning the investigation of Penn State

with the Big Ten Conference (“Big Ten”). As explained below, such an invocation

of privilege is clearly improper.

2

I. BACKGROUND

Plaintiffs recently learned through document discovery that the NCAA had

detailed communications with the Big Ten concerning the Freeh Group’s

investigation of Penn State.1 Indeed, the record reveals that the NCAA and Big Ten

closely monitored the Freeh Group’s investigation. See, e.g., Exhibit A,

NCAAJC00024790 (appointment for telephonic conference); Exhibit B,

PSUCOR01417-19 (email exchange between representatives of the Freeh Group,

NCAA, and Big Ten).

On Thursday, November 20, 2014, Plaintiffs took the Deposition of Donald

Remy. Exhibit C, 11/20/14 Deposition of Donald Remy. During the relevant period

of 2011 and 2012, Mr. Remy was the NCAA’s Vice President of Legal Affairs and

General Counsel. Id. at 12:24-13:3. In his deposition testimony, Mr. Remy

explained that he was the NCAA’s “point of contact with the Freeh Group” during

its investigation of Penn State. Id. at 79:2-79:3. Jonathan Barrett, then an attorney

with the Law firm Mayer Brown LLP, was outside counsel for the Big Ten and

served as that conference’s point of contact with the Freeh Group. Id. at 79:12-

79:13. Together they held periodic phone calls and exchanged emails about the

progress of the Freeh Group’s investigation of Penn State. Id. at 194:4-194:11.

1 The product of this investigation was the so-called Freeh Report, with which the Court is well-familiar.

3

As the Court is aware, the NCAA has applied extensive redactions to the

documents produced to Plaintiffs in this action. Thus far, the NCAA has justified

its redactions, both to Plaintiffs during discovery conferences and in written

submissions to the Court, as applications of the attorney-client privilege. On

November 20th, however, Plaintiffs asked Mr. Remy to personally review a small

number of redacted documents at his deposition, and invited him to confer with

counsel during a break about whether the NCAA would continue to stand behind

the redactions. With one exception, the NCAA maintained its stance. Id. at 301:3–

301:15. In two instances (Exhibits D & E, NCAAJC00035434 &

NCAAJC00041589-90, email communications between Mr. Remy and Mr.

Barrett), the NCAA justified its redactions on an entirely new basis: the so-called

“community of interest joint defense privilege” (“joint defense privilege”). Exhibit

C at 58:20. As counsel for the NCAA conceded, the joint defense privilege is

“different than NCAA attorney-client, purely NCAA attorney-client privilege[,]”

because the communications between Mr. Remy and Mr. Barrett “aren’t strictly

internal NCAA attorney-client communications.” Id. at 57:23–58:23.

Importantly, in opposing a motion to compel compliance with a subpoena

for essentially the same documents, the Big Ten did not assert the joint defense

privilege. See Exhibit F, Mayer Brown & Big Ten br. in opp. to [Paterno] plfs’ mot.

to compel in No. 14-L-2936 (Cook Co. Il. Cir. Ct.) (exhibits omitted).

4

II. ARGUMENT

A. Legal standard.

Pennsylvania Law recognizes a joint defense privilege under certain

circumstances. See Karoly v. Mancuso, 65 A.3d 301, 315 (Pa. 2013) (citing In re

Condemnation of 16.2626 Acre Area, 981 A.2d 391, 396-98 (Pa. Cmwlth. 2009)).

“In order to establish the existence of a joint defense privilege, the party asserting

the privilege must show that: (1) the communications were made in the course of a

joint defense effort; (2) the statements were designed to further that effort; and (3)

the privilege has not been waived.” In re Condemnation, 981 A.2d at 398 n.4

(emphasis added). Furthermore, “[a]lthough many issues concerning the joint

defense or common interest privilege have yet to be addressed by our courts,

various decisions have emphasized that a shared common business interest or an

interest that is solely commercial is insufficient to warrant application of the

privilege.” Id. at 398 (emphasis added).

B. The NCAA is not entitled to assert a joint defense privilege with the Big Ten.

As a predicate matter, the NCAA has waived whatever entitlement it may

have had to assert the joint defense privilege—or any other privilege—by failing to

include Mr. Remy’s two emails with Jonathan Barrett in a privilege log, even

though plaintiffs requested one. See, e.g., Exhibit G. (email from counsel for

Plaintiffs to counsel for NCAA). Privileges, including even the attorney-client

5

privilege, may be waived by the failure of counsel to properly assert the client’s

interests. See Law Office of Douglas T. Harris v. Phila. Waterfront Partners, LP,

957 A.2d 1223, 1232 (Pa. Super. 2008) (“Allowing a litigant who fails to invoke

and/or assert the attorney-client privilege before the trial court to then raise the

privilege for the first time on appeal not only works an injustice to the court system

itself, it also would provide litigants with a built-in mechanism for rigging the

judicial process in hopes of wearing down the opposition.”). It would be deeply

prejudicial for litigants to be left to wonder why their opponents have redacted

information from discovery documents. C.f. Commonwealth v. Ctr. Twp., 95 A.3d

354, 370-71 (Pa. Cmwlth. 2014) (indicating that a privilege log, like in camera

review, is an important tool for reviewing claims of privilege).

Beyond waiver, the NCAA has once again failed to provide even a minimal

amount of support for its bald invocation of the joint defense privilege. “To take

advantage of the common interest doctrine the [NCAA] must still satisfy [its]

burden of proving first that the material is privileged and second that the parties

had an identical legal, and not solely commercial, interest.” Katz v. AT&T Corp.,

191 F.R.D. 433, 437 (E.D. Pa. 2000) (emphasis added). It is apparent that the

NCAA and Big Ten worked together with the Freeh Group to investigate Penn

State. But it is not apparent—and the NCAA has not explained—what common

legal interest might have stood underneath this cooperation. Apparently the

6

purpose of the participation in the investigation was that both organizations were

attempting to evaluate whether or to what extent Penn State was not in compliance

with their respective rules. But this would appear to involve nothing more than the

two organizations attempting to advance their common business interests. In re

Condemnation, 981 A.2d at 398.2 Furthermore, the two organizations have very

different rules, and their legal circumstances are quite different. See Corman v.

NCAA, 93 A.3d 1, 14 n.9 (Pa. Cmwlth. 2014) (Explaining that unlike the NCAA,

“the [Big Ten Council of Presidents and Chancellors] acted in a similar manner as

the Pennsylvania General Assembly in seeking to protect children and designating

how its financial resources would be used by limiting the distribution of funds to

particular communities for the specific purpose of protecting children.”)

III. CONCLUSION

The NCAA once again attempts to hide behind an unsubstantiated and

highly dubious invocation of privilege. Plaintiffs thus respectfully request that the

Court rule that the NCAA may not withhold communications between itself and

the Big Ten on the basis of an alleged joint defense privilege. Plaintiffs also ask

that the Court order the NCAA to re-produce Donald Remy for deposition in order

to answer any question Plaintiffs were prevented from asking based on the NCAA’s

2 Indeed, this is buttressed by the fact that one of the emails in question also copies Bob Williams, an NCAA employee responsible for the association’s public relations. Exhibit D.

7

invocation of the joint defense privilege. At minimum, the Court should again take

the opportunity to review the challenged documents in camera.

Respectfully submitted, /s/ Matthew H. Haverstick CONRAD O’BRIEN PC Matthew H. Haverstick, Esq. (No. 85072) Mark E. Seiberling, Esq. (No. 91256) Andrew K. Garden, Esq. (No. 314708) Centre Square West Tower 1500 Market Street, Suite 3900 Philadelphia, PA 19102-2100 Ph: (215) 864-9600 Fax: (215) 864-9620 Email: [email protected]

[email protected] [email protected]

Stephen C. MacNett, Esq. (No. 10057) Joshua J. Voss, Esq. (No. 306853) The Payne Shoemaker Building 240 N. Third Street, 5th Floor Harrisburg, PA 17101 Ph: (717) 232-2141 (717) 943-1211 Fax: (717) 232-3797 (215) 864-7401 Email: [email protected]

[email protected]

Attorneys for Senator Jake Corman

Christopher B. Craig, Esq. (No. 65203)

Chief Counsel Craig S. Schwartz, Esq. (No. 79580)

Deputy Chief Counsel Jennifer Langan, Esq. (No. 98671)

Deputy Chief Counsel Pennsylvania Treasury Office of Chief Counsel 127 Finance Building Harrisburg, PA 17120 Ph: (717) 787-2740 Email: [email protected]

[email protected] [email protected]

Attorneys for Treasurer Robert M. McCord Dated: November 24, 2014

Exhibit A



Exhibit B

Exhibit C

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

Page 1

1 IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA2 No. 1 M.D. 20133 JAKE CORMAN, in his official capacity

as Senator from the 34th Senatorial4 District of Pennsylvania and Chair

of the Senate Committee on5 Appropriations; and ROBERT M.

McCORD, in his official capacity as6 Treasurer of the Commonwealth of

Pennsylvania,7

8 Plaintiffs,9 v.

10 THE NATIONAL COLLEGIATE ATHLETIC

ASSOCIATION,11

12 Defendant.13 v.14 PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY,15 Defendant.16 _____________________________________X17

18 ** REVISED **19 Thursday, November 20, 201420 9:01 a.m.21 Deposition of Donald Remy22

23

24 Job No: 8697925 Reported by: Randi Garcia


2 (Pages 2 to 5)

Page 2

1

2 Thursday, November 20, 20143 9:01 a.m.4

5 Deposition of DONALD REMY, ESQUIRE taken by6 Plaintiff, at the offices of Latham & Watkins, LLP,7 555 Eleventh Street, NW, Washington, D.C.,8 before Randi J. Garcia, Registered Professional9 Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the District

10 of Columbia, beginning at approximately 9:01 a m.,11 when were present on behalf of the respective12 parties:13

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15

16

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18

19

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21

22

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Page 4

1 (Continued)2 ATTORNEYS FOR PENN STATE.

REED SMITH3 BY: DONNA DOBLICK, ESQ

225 Fifth Avenue4 Pittsburgh, PA 152225 67 Also Present:8 Kevin M. McKenna, Esquire9

10 I N D E X11 DONALD REMY, ESQUIRE12 DIRECT EXAMINATION PAGE13 By Mr. Haverstick 6141516171819202122232425

Page 3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S:2 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFF.

CONRAD O'BRIEN 3 BY: MATTHEW HAVERSTICK, ESQ

MARK SEIBERLING, ESQ4 ANDREW KABNICK GARDEN, ESQ

1500 Market Street5 Philadelphia, PA 191026 78 ATTORNEYS FOR NCAA.

LATHAM & WATKINS9 BY: EVERETT JOHNSON, ESQ

BRIAN KOWALSKI, ESQ10 SARAH GRAGERT, ESQ

555 Eleventh Street, N.W.11 Washington, D.C. 2000412 1314 and -15 SCOTT BEARBY

ASSOCIATE GENERAL COUNSEL NCAA16 P.O. BOX 6222

Indianapolis, IN 462061718 and -19 KILLIAN & GEPHART

BY: THOMAS SCOTT, ESQ20 218 Pine Street

Harrisburg, PA 1710821 22232425 ///

Page 5

1 E X H I B I T S2 Page3 Exhibit 1 - November 21, 2011 e-mail 514 Exhibit 2 - November 23, 2011 e-mail 515 Exhibit 3 - 12/1/2011 e-mail 516 Exhibit 4 - 12/5/2011 e-mail 517 Exhibit 5 - 12/5/2011 e-mail 518 Exhibit 6 - 12/6/2011 e-mail 659 Exhibit 7 - 12/7/2011 e-mail 92

10 Exhibit 8 - 12/19/2011 e-mail 11211 Exhibit 9 - 12/20/2011 e-mail 11412 Exhibit 10 - 12/28/2011 e-mail 12013 Exhibit 11 - Proposed questions 12214 Exhibit 12 - 12/29/2100 e-mail 12915 Exhibit 13 - Search terms 13116 Exhibit 14 - 1/5/2012 e-mail 15117 Exhibit 15 - Institutional Control and Unethical18 Conduct 15119 Exhibit 16 - 1/6/2012 e-mail 16920 Exhibit 17 - 5/25/2012 e-mail 17721 Exhibit 18 - 6/30/2012 e-mail 17822 Exhibit 19 - 7/7/2012 e-mail 18723 Exhibit 20 - On Death's Door 24024 Exhibit 21 - 7/22/2012 e-mail 27025 Exhibit 22 - 5/30/2013 e-mail 278


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1 (Continued)2 Exhibit 23 - 7/21/2012 e-mail 2803 Exhibit 24 - 1/2/2013 e-mail 2824 Exhibit 25 - 7/19/2012 e-mail 2975

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1 DONALD REMY, ESQUIRE 09:03:582 after having been first duly sworn, was examined and 09:03:583 testified as follows: 09:03:584 DIRECT EXAMINATION 09:04:055 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:04:066 Q Good morning, Mr. Remy. I am Matt 09:04:117 Haverstick. And I represent Jake Corman in 09:04:148 Corman versus NCAA, et al. Thanks for being 09:04:179 here this morning. I appreciate it. 09:04:20

10 A Good morning, Matt. 09:04:2311 Q I -- well, look, you know how these 09:04:2312 things go. I'm going to ask questions, and you 09:04:2513 will presumably have answers. And we'll try to 09:04:3014 get through this as quickly as we can. 09:04:3215 If you need to break at any time, let me 09:04:3516 know. I expect that there are going to be a 09:04:3617 couple of times where counsel anticipates we may 09:04:3818 need to stop and you may need to either talk 09:04:4319 over certain issues or review certain documents 09:04:4520 to determine whether there is an attorney-client 09:04:5021 privilege that's applicable. 09:04:5222 I think the court reporter said this 09:04:5523 before. Let's just make sure that, before you 09:04:5624 answer anything, if there is any kind of 09:05:0025 objection like that or concern, that we take it 09:05:01

Page 7

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning This is 09:02:502 the start of media labeled Number 1 in the 09:02:523 videotaped deposition of Donald Remy in the 09:02:564 matter of Jake Corman versus NCAA in the 09:02:595 Commonwealth of the Court of Pennsylvania, 09:03:056 Case Number 1MD2013 09:03:067 This deposition is being held at 09:03:108 555 - 11th Street Northwest, Washington, D C 09:03:139 on November 20, 2014 And the time on the 09:03:18

10 video monitor is 9:01 09:03:2111 My name is Krishna Sharma, from TSG 09:03:2412 Reporting, Inc And the court reporter is 09:03:2613 Randi Garcia, also in association with TSG 09:03:2914 Reporting 09:03:3315 Will counsel please introduce yourselves 09:03:3416 for the record 09:03:3717 MR HAVERSTICK: For Jake Corman, Matt 09:03:3918 Haverstick 09:03:4019 MR JOHNSON: Everett Johnson for the NCAA 09:03:4320 and the witness 09:03:4621 MS DOBLICK: Donna Doblick on behalf of 09:03:4922 Penn State University 09:03:5123 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter 09:03:5524 please swear in the witness and Kevin Lennon 09:03:5625 with begin 09:03:57

Page 9

1 slow. I don't want to put anything on the 09:05:042 record that's not supposed to be there. Okay? 09:05:073 A I'll do my best. 09:05:094 Q All right. Great. 09:05:105 Tell me, sir, when you first learned of 09:05:146 the Jerry Sandusky matter at Penn State. 09:05:197 A At the time of the grand jury 09:05:238 indictment, when the report was provided to the 09:05:269 public, I read about it in the newspaper. It 09:05:28

10 detailed all of the allegations regarding his 09:05:3111 behavior on campus. 09:05:3312 Q So if that's -- if I tell you that was 09:05:3413 early November 2011, I think we'd agree that's 09:05:3614 roughly right? 09:05:3915 A No reason to disagree with that. 09:05:4016 Q Okay. Was there -- what was, if any, 09:05:4217 the reaction inside the NCAA? 09:05:4518 A I can't speak for the reaction of 09:05:5019 everybody -- 09:05:5120 Q Sure. 09:05:5121 A -- in the building. I can tell you how 09:05:5222 I reacted to it. And I read the indictment, and 09:05:5323 I thought, wow, these are some pretty horrible, 09:05:5624 heinous crimes that have been alleged to have 09:05:5925 been committed by Mr. Sandusky to -- to go 09:06:01


4 (Pages 10 to 13)

Page 10

1 through a period of time of more than a decade 09:06:042 of having raped and abused little boys, some on 09:06:073 the campus of Penn State. 09:06:104 And -- and the allegations included some 09:06:125 allegations around potential knowledge of 09:06:146 individuals on that campus, people in 09:06:177 responsible positions on the campus, having 09:06:208 known about it. My reaction was, this is pretty 09:06:219 bad. 09:06:25

10 Q It's troubling stuff. 09:06:2511 A Yes. 09:06:2712 Q Was there -- were there meetings 09:06:2713 scheduled, in the immediate aftermath of the 09:06:2914 release of the grand jury presentment, among 09:06:3215 high-level NCAA staff, to discuss the matter? 09:06:3516 A I don't know what you mean by "high 09:06:3817 level." 09:06:3918 Yes, there were meetings after the 09:06:4019 indictment came out, and individuals talked 09:06:4220 about the material that was in the indictment. 09:06:4521 Q Do you recall a meeting on Wednesday, 09:06:5022 November 16, 2011, regarding Penn State? 09:06:5723 A I -- you would have to give me more 09:07:0424 information about the context of the meeting. 09:07:0625 We just agreed that early November is the time 09:07:08

Page 12

1 think might have been included in those 09:07:562 meetings. 09:07:573 Dr. Emmert, who is president of the 09:07:594 NCAA; Wally Renfro; Dave Berst; Julie Roe Lach; 09:07:595 Kevin Lennon; myself. And there may have been 09:08:056 others that I'm forgetting. But right now, 09:08:147 that's who I can -- I can recall that was in 09:08:168 those meetings. 09:08:199 Q Tell me about your role, generally, at 09:08:20

10 NCAA. Then we'll get to the meetings later. 09:08:2311 Your title is general counsel? 09:08:2612 A It was at the time, yes. 09:08:2713 Q Okay. And it was also executive vice 09:08:2814 president? 09:08:3015 A At that time, no. I was vice president 09:08:3016 for legal affairs. 09:08:3417 Q Can you -- is there a distinction 09:08:3518 between those titles? Did they have different 09:08:3719 duties or roles? 09:08:3920 A I did. I did. So let me just try to 09:08:4021 walk you through -- 09:08:4222 Q Please. That would be great. 09:08:4323 A -- my roles at the NCAA. 09:08:4324 When I was first hired at the NCAA, the 09:08:4625 announcement came out maybe in January of 2011. 09:08:47

Page 11

1 that the indictment came out. I think it was 09:07:102 maybe the first week of November. 09:07:133 November 16 is a couple of weeks later. 09:07:144 So I suspect there were conversations that 09:07:165 occurred prior to November 16, but I can't give 09:07:196 you dates on that. 09:07:217 Q Do you recall, at least from your 09:07:238 perspective, who was involved in those 09:07:249 conversations? 09:07:25

10 A Generally, I think I do. There -- there 09:07:2711 were individuals that -- who made up part of 09:07:3012 the -- what we call "senior management group" 09:07:3313 within the NCAA, to talk about the information 09:07:3614 that we had learned in the indictment. So those 09:07:3915 would have included vice presidents and above. 09:07:4116 Q Can you name names for me, who those 09:07:4417 folks were? 09:07:4618 A I don't know that I can capture 09:07:4719 everybody that was in the -- in the room in 09:07:4820 every meeting. And I suspect everybody wasn't 09:07:5021 in every meeting. 09:07:5222 Q Okay. 09:07:5323 A So if we can agree to that, I can -- 09:07:5324 Q Sure. No, no. 09:07:5525 A -- tell you some people that I generally 09:07:55

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1 I started there maybe in March of 2011. And I 09:08:502 was vice president of legal affairs and general 09:08:533 counsel. 09:08:564 That was the job that I had, and the 09:08:585 responsibilities were the management of legal 09:09:006 affairs of the association. Those were my 09:09:037 duties. 09:09:048 Subsequently, in January of 2012, 09:09:069 roughly there around, I was given the additional 09:09:11

10 title of executive vice president and general 09:09:1311 counsel. So I was still responsible for the 09:09:1512 legal affairs of the association, but had 09:09:1713 greater responsibility within the organization 09:09:2014 and -- and participation in the senior 09:09:2415 management group. 09:09:2616 And then, roughly a year or so later, I 09:09:2617 was named executive vice president of law policy 09:09:2918 and governance and chief legal officer, at which 09:09:3219 point someone else assumed the role of vice 09:09:3520 president of legal affairs and general counsel. 09:09:3821 And -- and I was the chief legal officer, and am 09:09:4022 today, the chief legal officer of the 09:09:4523 association and the executive vice president of 09:09:4624 law policy and governance. 09:09:4725 Q You -- I would consider it a 09:09:49


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1 promotion -- and tell me if you don't agree -- 09:09:512 your promotion in early 2012 to the executive 09:09:533 vice president position. I mean, tell me what 09:09:574 duties that that job entailed. 09:09:585 A Well, again, as I mentioned, it was 09:10:026 still the job that had the responsibility for 09:10:037 the management of the legal affairs. I was 09:10:068 still -- 09:10:089 Q Sure. 09:10:08

10 A -- the general counsel of the 09:10:0811 association. 09:10:0912 In addition to that, I assumed the 09:10:1013 responsibility for management of an organization 09:10:1214 called the Office of Committee on Infractions, 09:10:1415 which included staff members who provided 09:10:1716 support to the Committee on Infractions, 09:10:2117 separate unit altogether. The only difference 09:10:2318 was, I was then the manager of that group, 09:10:2619 whereas before, someone else was the manager of 09:10:2820 that group. 09:10:3121 Q Who would have been the manager prior to 09:10:3222 you? 09:10:3423 A Dave Berst. 09:10:3524 Q Did you have any additional duties other 09:10:3625 than assuming -- my word -- control of the 09:10:37

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1 Infractions was a separate organization within 09:11:292 the national office that supports that 09:11:303 committee. If you think about the way the 09:11:334 national office is structured, we have a number 09:11:345 of staff that support various committees 09:11:366 throughout the membership. And that was one of 09:11:407 that staff group that supported that committee. 09:11:438 Q That -- would that staff be the folks 09:11:459 who bring cases before the committee? 09:11:47

10 A No. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to 09:11:5211 interrupt. I won't do that again, I promise. 09:11:5412 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, you will. 09:11:5813 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:11:5814 Q Does that staff -- who brings -- who 09:11:5815 within the organization brings the -- 09:12:0116 A The enforcement staff. 09:12:0317 Q Okay. The committee -- I'm sorry. The 09:12:0518 office staff that you discussed -- and those 09:12:0619 would be folks that you would have supervision 09:12:1120 over in your new role as executive vice 09:12:1321 president; is that right? 09:12:1622 A In the Office of Committee on 09:12:1723 Infractions -- 09:12:1924 Q Yes. 09:12:1925 A -- staff, not the enforcement staff. 09:12:20

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1 Committee on Infractions? That's not the right 09:10:402 word. 09:10:423 A Yeah. I'm glad you said your word -- 09:10:424 Q Yeah. 09:10:445 A -- because I would -- I would never 09:10:446 assume to have control of the Committee on 09:10:457 Infractions. 09:10:488 Q Yeah. 09:10:489 A They are a membership body. They are 09:10:49

10 made up of university presidents, conference 09:10:5011 commissioners, athletics directors, private 09:10:5312 citizens, members of the public who are lawyers 09:10:5513 and judges. 09:10:5814 The Committee on Infractions, just so we 09:10:5915 understand the terms here, is an independent 09:11:0016 committee that actually adjudicates matters that 09:11:0317 are brought before it. 09:11:0518 The Office of Committee on Infractions 09:11:0619 includes staff that provides staff to the 09:11:1020 Committee on Infractions' scheduled meetings, 09:11:1221 gather materials, provide the documents for them 09:11:1622 to engage in their deliberations, and then staff 09:11:1923 the meetings while they occur. 09:11:2124 That organization was a separate 09:11:2425 organization. The Office of Committee on 09:11:26

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1 Q Correct, correct. 09:12:232 Those folks, the office staff -- they -- 09:12:233 were they primarily policy-making folks, or did 09:12:264 they provide specific services to the committee 09:12:305 itself? 09:12:336 A Yeah. I wouldn't call them 09:12:337 policy-making folks at all. 09:12:358 Q All right. 09:12:369 A They provided staff service to the 09:12:36

10 Committee on Infractions, much akin to what a 09:12:3811 clerk would provide in terms -- or an admin 09:12:4212 assistant would provide -- in terms of a chamber 09:12:4413 of a body that adjudicates issues -- scheduling, 09:12:4614 gathering documents, presenting the materials so 09:12:5015 that they can be prepared for the meetings, 09:12:5316 assisting them with their activities. 09:12:5517 Q Did that staff ever do anything in the 09:12:5818 nature of a -- a function similar to what 09:13:0019 judicial clerk might -- that is, research 09:13:0320 issues, draft potential outcomes or legal 09:13:0621 analyses -- for folks on the Committee on 09:13:1022 Infractions? 09:13:1223 A Not at that time. And I wouldn't 09:13:1424 describe it that way at all. At that time they 09:13:1525 merely provided staffing services for the 09:13:18


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1 Committee on Infractions. They since evolved, 09:13:202 whereas today they -- they don't provide 09:13:233 anything in the way of direction or suggestions 09:13:264 about outcome of cases, but they do provide 09:13:295 what's more like a bench memo today to really 09:13:326 just frame the issues for the committee so that 09:13:357 they understand all the material before them, 09:13:378 whereas in the past, they would just give them 09:13:399 the big binders and say, "Here's the material. 09:13:42

10 Here's the date. This is when you're supposed 09:13:4411 to show up. Please read the material and then 09:13:4612 afterwards deliberate," provide the material, 09:13:4813 tell them how to draft the infractions report, 09:13:4914 and then they provide a draft and work with the 09:13:5315 committee on getting that out in the format that 09:13:5716 the association's used to. 09:13:5917 Q This is more curiosity than anything. 09:14:0118 When did that evolution of the office staff 09:14:0319 occur, where they -- where they moved into doing 09:14:0720 more like, as you've noted, a bench brief? 09:14:0921 A Oh, recently. I think that -- that's 09:14:1222 in -- I suppose it was the middle of 2012. 09:14:1423 There was a new managing director that was hired 09:14:1824 in that unit, Joel McGormley. And he was 09:14:2325 charged with the responsibility of bringing some 09:14:26

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1 privilege around those. 09:15:322 MR. HAVERSTICK: Oh, I'm sorry. 09:15:353 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:15:354 Q And, Mr. Remy, so your counsel's right. 09:15:355 We don't -- so we don't have to do that every -- 09:15:406 every time this comes up, I accept, as we go 09:15:417 forward, that you may edit the answer in the 09:15:458 fashion your counsel suggests. 09:15:509 And, again, I offer that if you need to 09:15:52

10 take a time-out and go think about it or talk it 09:15:5511 out to see, you know, which hat you were wearing 09:15:5712 or whether you were -- whether these discussions 09:15:5913 were occurring for the purpose of provision of 09:16:0214 legal services or advice, just let me know, 09:16:0415 because I want to make sure we get it right and 09:16:0616 we have a -- a clean record. 09:16:0817 A Okay. With all of -- I was about to 09:16:1018 say, if I was making -- can you rephrase the 09:16:1219 question or read it back, one of the two? 09:16:1520 MR. JOHNSON: It was whether penalties 09:16:1621 were discussed. 09:16:1822 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 09:16:1823 MR. HAVERSTICK: Okay. Thank you very 09:16:1924 much. 09:16:1925 THE WITNESS: Well, let me first say that 09:16:20

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1 innovation to the committee so that they could 09:14:282 be more efficient in the work that they do. 09:14:303 He moved them from paper to electronic 09:14:324 and -- and then crafted this process whereby 09:14:365 they can actually receive the material in a 09:14:386 condensed format. And that's when this new memo 09:14:407 process came into play. 09:14:448 Q In the -- now, taking you back to early 09:14:479 November of 2011, do you recall, in any of the 09:14:50

10 meetings you had with senior staff -- I forget 09:14:5511 which one of us used that term, but the folks 09:14:5912 that you generally identified before. 09:15:0213 Do you recall whether -- in any of those 09:15:0414 early November meetings, that there were 09:15:0615 discussions about possible penalties for 09:15:0816 Penn State? 09:15:1017 MR. JOHNSON: So let me just -- I'll just 09:15:1218 do this one time. 09:15:1319 MR. HAVERSTICK: Sure. 09:15:1420 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, answer this 09:15:1521 question, if you can, and don't reveal any 09:15:1622 communications with yourself that were for the 09:15:1823 purpose of obtaining legal advice. If, in your 09:15:2324 answer, you have excluded any communications, 09:15:2525 let Matt know that, and we can explore the 09:15:28

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1 I don't have clear specific recollections of 09:16:212 every conversation that occurred at every 09:16:243 meeting. 09:16:264 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:16:275 Q Understood. 09:16:276 A So, you know, whether a conversation 09:16:287 about anything occurred at any particular 09:16:308 meeting, I doubt that I'll be able to give you 09:16:339 information about that. 09:16:34

10 But we did talk about the fact that, 09:16:3611 generally, there were meetings that occurred 09:16:3712 during this time period. I'll offer that my 09:16:3913 presence at those meetings and my purpose at 09:16:4214 those meetings was to evaluate, for the purposes 09:16:4515 of providing legal advice to the association, 09:16:4816 what the next steps might be. 09:16:5117 And when I say "next steps," what I'm 09:16:5418 referring to there is, what should we do -- what 09:16:5619 can we do -- in response to, or in reaction to, 09:17:0020 the indictment of Jerry Sandusky and the 09:17:0321 material that was provided in that indictment? 09:17:0622 Q Now -- 09:17:0823 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Were you 09:17:1124 finished? 09:17:1225 THE WITNESS: So in that context -- it's 09:17:12


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1 that context that I would need to offer to you 09:17:142 in order to try to respond to your question. 09:17:163 So if it's fair for both of you, what 09:17:194 I'd like to do is not talk about anything 09:17:215 that I might have said or anything that might 09:17:236 have been said to me for the purposes of my 09:17:257 analytics around what should the appropriate 09:17:288 legal solution be there, but rather answer it 09:17:319 this way: As I participated in these 09:17:34

10 meetings, I certainly can sit back and think 09:17:3811 about what the association can or should do, 09:17:4112 what the issues might be that would arise out 09:17:4413 of a circumstance like this. 09:17:4814 And -- and I probably did that. Now, 09:17:5015 some of that may be work product, depending 09:17:5316 on how you might want to define it. But 09:17:5517 what -- what I'd like to share with you about 09:17:5718 those meetings is that we had discussions 09:17:5819 around what our next steps might be. 09:18:0220 And, as a general matter, as I thought 09:18:0421 about what the next steps might be after that 09:18:0722 indictment, thought about a number of things. 09:18:0923 At that time one of those thoughts was not 09:18:1324 what are the penalties. I -- I simply wasn't 09:18:1625 thinking that way. 09:18:19

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1 the way that you have described it. So let me 09:19:452 try it again in terms of the way that I think it 09:19:473 about it, because that might be the way that 09:19:494 some of my colleagues would think through these 09:19:515 issues and perhaps participate in a discussion 09:19:546 with one another about them. 09:19:577 But given my responsibilities at the 09:19:588 association at the time, the way that I was 09:20:009 thinking about them was in terms of, what are 09:20:03

10 our rights? What are our authorities? What are 09:20:0611 our obligations? How do we respond to this? 09:20:1012 So when I would solicit information from 09:20:1213 my colleagues, it would be for the purpose of me 09:20:1614 analyzing those issues, digesting them, and then 09:20:1815 providing legal advice. 09:20:2116 That's not to say that I didn't have 09:20:2317 thoughts or didn't have perspectives or didn't 09:20:2518 even have policy judgments. It's just, in 09:20:2819 response to your question, that's how I would 09:20:3120 think through that. 09:20:3221 MR. JOHNSON: And let me just offer this, 09:20:3422 because I don't want you to miss the 09:20:3523 opportunity to ask him something. It may well 09:20:3624 be that Donald observed communications between 09:20:3925 others that were not to him and were not for 09:20:42

1 The thought was, here's an indictment. 09:18:212 It delineates heinous activity and the 09:18:233 possibility that management knew of it and 09:18:274 didn't react properly to it. What should we 09:18:315 as an association do in response? 09:18:346 Q I appreciate the distinction between 09:18:387 what you should do and what you can do. 09:18:418 When you speak of discussions about what 09:18:449 you -- and I think -- by "you," I mean NCAA -- 09:18:48

10 can do, are those the types of conversations 09:18:5011 where folks are eliciting from you, from a legal 09:18:5512 perspective, what legally NCAA can do? 09:18:5913 A Most times, yes. 09:19:0414 Q Okay. Are those conversations ones in 09:19:0515 which you would be, in your opinion, or in your 09:19:0816 view or your counsel's view, communicating for 09:19:1117 the purpose of providing legal advice? 09:19:1418 A Most times, yes. 09:19:1619 Q Is it fair to say that when you discuss 09:19:2120 in these meetings what NCAA should do, that 09:19:2621 those conversations would be less about little 09:19:3022 advice and more about, from a policy 09:19:3323 perspective, what NCAA should do -- should do -- 09:19:3624 in reaction to the Jerry Sandusky matter? 09:19:3925 A You know, it -- it's hard to describe it 09:19:43

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1 the purpose of legal advice. And I wouldn't 09:20:432 want you to miss the chance to ask -- 09:20:453 MR. HAVERSTICK: And that's -- thank you. 09:20:484 And that's right where I was going to go. 09:20:485 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:20:516 Q And I know that, based on an earlier 09:20:547 answer, the things that you say are ones that 09:20:578 are probably going to be ones that we are going 09:20:599 to be more circumspect about. 09:21:01

10 But tell me about what others in these 09:21:0411 meetings, if you recall -- as specifically as 09:21:0612 you recall -- were saying about what should 09:21:0813 happen. 09:21:1114 A Well, others were talking about the 09:21:1115 question around whether an enforcement action 09:21:1316 should be initiated immediately or should 09:21:1617 another path be taken. 09:21:1918 And that was the principal dialogue, if 09:21:2219 you will, around what to do in response to the 09:21:2520 indictment of Jerry Sandusky and others. 09:21:2921 Q Do you remember what something other 09:21:3222 than the enforcement action was described as or 09:21:3423 discussed as by others in these meetings? 09:21:3724 A How do we communicate with Penn State? 09:21:4125 You know, how do we gather more information 09:21:42


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1 about what happened under these circumstances? 09:21:472 The indictment delineated some very 09:21:493 graphic and specific things, but it didn't give 09:21:524 all the information that we would need to 09:21:555 determine what the next steps of the association 09:21:576 might be. 09:21:597 Q Were the discussions, among others, 09:22:008 early on about vehicles to obtain more 09:22:029 information to inform NCAA on what to do? 09:22:05

10 A You know, I would describe it a little 09:22:0911 differently, but I think we're close. 09:22:1212 Q Okay. 09:22:1413 A During that November time frame, the 09:22:1414 discussions were about, you know, how can we 09:22:1615 engage with our members -- our member to learn 09:22:1816 the circumstances around what happened on their 09:22:2217 campus at this time? What's the right way to go 09:22:2518 about doing that? 09:22:2819 Q What were -- what was or were -- let me 09:22:2920 get this right. 09:22:3221 What was discussed, among others, that 09:22:3422 you recall about different ways that that 09:22:3723 information could be obtained? 09:22:4024 A Well, the first question we talked 09:22:4325 about, which was do we have enough information 09:22:44

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1 Q Did you have a role in drafting that 09:23:402 letter? 09:23:423 A I did. 09:23:434 Q Before I move on from these early 09:23:495 conversations, do you recall any individuals and 09:23:516 their -- who were in these meetings and their 09:23:567 individual perspectives on whether an 09:23:598 enforcement action could happen or whether more 09:24:029 information was needed? In other words, did 09:24:04

10 camps develop? Did some people, that you 09:24:0611 remember specifically, think, we can do 09:24:0812 enforcement now, and some say, "No, we can't"? 09:24:1013 A No. I think what would be helpful for 09:24:1314 me, and for you, is if I kind of describe what 09:24:1515 we do in this context. 09:24:1916 Q That would be great. 09:24:2117 A And -- and this is a group of 09:24:2218 individuals who have various responsibilities 09:24:2319 throughout the organization and a wealth of 09:24:2620 knowledge about NCAA policies and practices. I 09:24:2921 would even call them experts in various areas. 09:24:3222 And the conversations were around, what 09:24:3623 are the possibilities? What are the choices? 09:24:3924 What are the alternatives? How can we move 09:24:4125 forward? 09:24:45

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1 for the enforcement staff to make a judgment 09:22:472 about moving forward with the enforcement 09:22:493 action? 09:22:514 I think that the product of that is 09:22:515 clear, inasmuch as there was a letter sent by 09:22:546 the president of the association to the 09:22:577 president of Penn State. 09:22:588 Q And I -- but I'm going to forget this if 09:23:019 I don't ask. Does that -- do I take your answer 09:23:03

10 to mean that it was established among the group 09:23:0411 that an enforcement action at that time was not 09:23:0912 one that could move forward, that NCAA didn't 09:23:1213 have enough information to do it? 09:23:1514 A You know, again, I wouldn't stay 09:23:1615 "established." 09:23:1716 Q Okay. 09:23:1817 A What I would say is, there -- there was 09:23:1818 a good, healthy discussion amongst members of 09:23:1919 the team, examining an issue, and as we looked 09:23:2320 at this indictment, there was a conclusion that 09:23:2721 we need more information to figure out what our 09:23:2922 next steps might be. 09:23:3223 Q All right. 09:23:3424 A And -- and the product of that was the 09:23:3425 letter that Dr. Emmert sent to Dr. Erickson. 09:23:35

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1 It wasn't adversarial. It wasn't 09:24:462 confrontational. It wasn't camps. We don't 09:24:493 have that type of culture or atmosphere at the 09:24:514 NCAA. It was really was a dialogue around, what 09:24:545 should our next steps be? What are our 09:24:576 alternatives, and how do we get there? 09:25:007 Q I'm going to throw out some names that 09:25:028 appear -- appear to have been at some of these 09:25:059 early meetings, and I'd like you to comment on 09:25:08

10 what their particular expertise would be in this 09:25:1111 conversation. I think it would be helpful for 09:25:1312 understanding your consensus process. I mean, 09:25:1513 that's what it sounds like, right? A consensus? 09:25:1614 A Yeah. It's a discussion of ideas. 09:25:1915 Q Mr. Emmert, the president -- I suppose 09:25:2016 his expertise is, he's the boss? 09:25:2317 A You know, it's interesting. He -- he is 09:25:2618 an individual who operates in this fashion that 09:25:2819 I just described, which is a leader who gathers 09:25:3120 information and data before he makes a decision. 09:25:3421 And -- and so in this context, he would 09:25:3722 be a participant in the dialogue around what our 09:25:4023 next steps are, not an individual that says, 09:25:4424 "This is what we're going to do. Go do it," 09:25:4625 but, rather, "Let me hear all of your ideas and 09:25:48


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1 perspectives. Let's put them all together, and 09:25:512 then we'll make a decision how to move forward." 09:25:543 So -- so, yes, he is the president of 09:25:574 the NCAA and, by virtue of that, is my boss. 09:25:585 Q Fair to say that once Dr. Emmert 09:26:026 collects information and synthesizes it and 09:26:057 comes with a conclusion, then he says, "Okay. 09:26:088 I've thought about it. Here's how we're going 09:26:119 to go"? 09:26:13

10 A Yeah. He's the -- he's the decision 09:26:1411 maker in the context of that national office 09:26:1512 staff, yes. 09:26:1813 Q Jim Isch. Do you recall Mr. Isch being 09:26:1914 at any of these meetings? 09:26:2015 A Yes, yes. Jim was at the meetings. I 09:26:2216 apologize. I left him out. 09:26:2417 Q It was a couple years ago. 09:26:2718 Tell me what Mr. Isch's expertise or 09:26:3119 skill set would be that would be relevant to 09:26:3420 these meetings. 09:26:3621 A So I'm going to say the same thing for 09:26:3722 everybody -- so I'll start with Jim -- of 09:26:3923 course, I said about Mark. 09:26:4024 These are all really good thinkers. 09:26:4225 They're -- they're all really smart people. And 09:26:44

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1 in any meeting that would argue for both sides 09:27:502 of an issue, or three sides of an issue, even 09:27:533 though there were only two, and -- and argue 09:27:574 with himself. That's the way that he approached 09:27:595 issues. 09:28:016 He -- you know, he was the person that 09:28:017 could pull the strings on any ball of yarn and 09:28:028 have it straight by the end of the day and then 09:28:069 crumble it all back up and have you figure out. 09:28:08

10 Q Was Mr. Renfro, from a policy 09:28:1211 perspective, looking at the Jerry Sandusky issue 09:28:1412 in terms of what -- what a reaction by NCAA 09:28:1813 might mean towards policy goals that the 09:28:2414 organization wanted to -- wanted to engage in? 09:28:2615 A You know -- 09:28:3016 MR. JOHNSON: Matt, I just didn't 09:28:3117 understand. 09:28:3318 THE WITNESS: I didn't either. 09:28:3319 MR. JOHNSON: Could you just read it back 09:28:3320 so that Donald can hear it again? 09:28:3421 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 09:28:3622 record was read back by the court reporter.) 09:28:3623 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think I understood 09:28:5224 the question. 09:28:5225 But the answer is, I really can't tell 09:28:54

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1 they bring to the table various perspectives 09:26:462 from their walks in lives and their experiences 09:26:493 that can help inform a judgment at the end of 09:26:514 the day. 09:26:545 Jim was the chief operating officer of 09:26:556 the association. He was also the former interim 09:26:577 president of the association and had been with 09:27:008 the NCAA for a number of years. I'm not sure 09:27:029 how many. 09:27:05

10 And so, you know, he brings those 09:27:0611 experiences to the table. Has had a number of 09:27:0812 engagements with membership over the years and 09:27:1213 understands how our members think about issues. 09:27:1414 Q So, from an operational standpoint, he's 09:27:1815 done it before. He sort of understands how it 09:27:2016 happens in the real world with the membership? 09:27:2317 A He has a good relationship with the 09:27:2518 membership. 09:27:2719 Q Wally Renfro. 09:27:2820 A At the time Wally's title was chief 09:27:3221 policy adviser, I believe. He was the principal 09:27:3422 policy person within the organization, reporting 09:27:3823 directly to Dr. Emmert. 09:27:4124 You know, some like to characterize 09:27:4425 Wally as a provocateur. He was the individual 09:27:46

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1 you how Wally was analyzing the issues what 09:28:562 we were talking about -- 09:28:583 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:28:594 Q Okay. 09:28:595 A -- on that. 09:28:596 Q I'd have to ask him? 09:29:007 A Yeah. 09:29:028 Q David Berst. 09:29:039 A Uh-huh. Dave Berst is the vice 09:29:04

10 president for Division I governance and has held 09:29:0611 various others roles in the organization 09:29:0912 overtime. Between he and Wally Renfro, you 09:29:1213 probably have about 80-plus years of experience 09:29:1614 at the NCAA. At the time Wally was the longest 09:29:1815 serving employee of the national office staff, 09:29:2316 Dave being the second longest serving employee 09:29:2517 of the national office staff, and so Dave brings 09:29:2718 to the table a lot of different perspectives and 09:29:2919 history and ideas about what the association has 09:29:3320 faced in the past and how they've handled those 09:29:3621 challenges. 09:29:3822 Q Fair to say that many of the bylaws that 09:29:3923 are in place today at NCAA were -- well, at 09:29:4424 least have Mr. Berst's fingerprints on them, if 09:29:4725 not actually being written by him? 09:29:50


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1 A Yeah, I don't know what that means. The 09:29:522 membership passes the bylaws, so -- 09:29:533 Q Who writes them? 09:29:554 A -- when -- when a bylaw -- the 09:29:565 membership through committee. There may be an 09:29:576 initial draft that somebody on the staff 09:30:007 provides, but at the end of the day, it goes 09:30:018 through a membership process and ultimately is 09:30:049 voted on by the Division I board of directors, 09:30:07

10 or Divisions II and III, depending upon the 09:30:0911 circumstances. And -- and that's how the bylaws 09:30:1012 are created. 09:30:1313 Q Bob Williams is the communications head. 09:30:1514 I suppose I understand his role, but go ahead. 09:30:1815 A Yes. He's the vice president for 09:30:2016 communications. Again, like I said with 09:30:2117 everyone else, a great thinker, somebody who can 09:30:2318 examine issues and look at them from various 09:30:2619 perspectives. 09:30:2820 Q Julie Roe? 09:30:2921 A Julie Roe at time was vice president for 09:30:3022 enforcement, or of enforcement, I think it is. 09:30:3123 And she brought her experiences. She had been 09:30:3524 with the national office since she was an 09:30:3925 intern, had been working in enforcement her 09:30:41

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1 Q And, by the way, I don't mean to infer 09:31:372 that all of these people were at every one of 09:31:393 these meetings. It's just a list that I have. 09:31:414 And I assume that's your answer too. You 09:31:445 don't -- 09:31:466 A Yes. 09:31:467 Q -- remember all of them being at every 09:31:468 meeting? 09:31:469 A They likely were not. 09:31:47

10 Q All right. You mentioned the 09:31:4911 November 17 letter from Dr. Emmert to Cynthia 09:31:5212 Baldwin at Penn State. And I do want to ask 09:31:5613 you -- I do want to ask you some questions about 09:31:5814 that. 09:31:5915 Couple follow-up first, though. What 09:32:0016 is, to your -- as far as you know, the first 09:32:0317 contact between NCAA and anyone at Penn State 09:32:0718 regard Jerry Sandusky? 09:32:1019 A I don't think I know what the first 09:32:1720 contact was regarding Jerry Sandusky. I can 09:32:1921 probably, if you help me, recall what my 09:32:2622 contacts were. 09:32:2923 Q Yeah. 09:32:2924 A But -- but I couldn't tell you if 09:32:2925 anybody at the NCAA, other than myself or -- or 09:32:31

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1 entire career there, and understood how the 09:30:442 enforcement process worked, what the membership 09:30:463 expected from the enforcement process, and, of 09:30:484 course, another great thinker. 09:30:505 Q Kevin Lennon? 09:30:536 A Kevin Lennon at the time was the vice 09:30:547 president of academic and membership affairs, I 09:30:558 think is what it's called. And he's probably 09:30:589 the third longest serving person in the NCAA, 09:31:00

10 now having graduated to the second, since Wally 09:31:0211 Renfro had left. 09:31:0612 And, you know, he brings with him 09:31:0713 experiences from the membership. You know, 09:31:0914 he -- when you talk about how rules are passed 09:31:1115 and interpreted, Kevin has interfaced with the 09:31:1416 membership and his staff, on a regular basis, 09:31:1817 about the interpretation of the rules that the 09:31:2018 member has put in place. 09:31:2219 Q And Jennifer Strawley? 09:31:2420 A I don't recall Jen Strawley being in 09:31:2821 many of those meetings. 09:31:3122 Q What is her role? 09:31:3223 A She may have been from time to time. 09:31:3424 She's on Kevin Lennon's staff. I don't 09:31:3425 know her exact title. 09:31:36

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1 Dr. Emmert, ever had any contacts with 09:32:352 Penn State regarding Jerry Sandusky. 09:32:383 Q What -- yeah, I am -- I am going to -- 09:32:404 I'm going to try. 09:32:405 Can I see 2? 09:32:446 Do you recall -- while we pull this out, 09:32:497 do you recall if there were contacts by anybody 09:32:508 at NCAA with Penn State prior to Dr. Emmert's 09:32:539 being -- letter being sent to -- to Ms. Baldwin? 09:33:00

10 A Contacts in -- what contacts? I'm not 09:33:0511 being funny, but -- 09:33:0612 Q No. 09:33:0613 A -- just to be -- just to be precise, 09:33:0814 there are -- there are contacts probably on a 09:33:0815 regular basis with Penn State throughout the 09:33:1116 national office, and Penn State staff. 09:33:1217 Q I get it. And that's a -- that's a fair 09:33:1518 qualifier. Thank you. 09:33:1719 Regarding the Jerry Sandusky matter. 09:33:1920 A So restate your question. 09:33:2321 Q What I'm getting at -- maybe I'll say it 09:33:2622 in plain English and it'll be better than this. 09:33:2823 Do you know if, prior to Dr. Emmert -- was 09:33:3024 Dr. Emmert's letter to Cynthia Baldwin the first 09:33:3425 communication NCAA made to Penn State about the 09:33:38


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1 Jerry Sandusky matter, or were there any 09:33:422 communications -- telephonic, e-mail, in 09:33:433 person -- before that? 09:33:464 A Well, first -- this is the second time 09:33:485 you've said it, so let me -- let me just clarify 09:33:516 the record. The letter, I believe, was from 09:33:527 Dr. Emmert to Dr. Erickson and not to Cynthia 09:33:548 Baldwin. 09:33:569 Q You're absolutely -- thank you. You're 09:33:57

10 right. 09:33:5911 A And the Jerry Sandusky matter -- 09:34:0012 indictment became public, I believe -- you said 09:34:0113 the first week in November. I think it was the 09:34:0514 4th or the 5th. 09:34:0715 Q 5th, I think. 09:34:0816 A And the letter from Dr. Emmert to 09:34:0917 Dr. Erickson was the 17th. So, while I can't 09:34:1118 sit here and specifically recall -- and you may 09:34:1419 be able to refresh my recollection -- any 09:34:1620 conversations that occurred, I'm fairly 09:34:1921 confident that there probably were conversations 09:34:2222 in between that time period. You may have 09:34:2523 records of them or not. I just -- 09:34:2824 MR. HAVERSTICK: Let's mark this as -- 09:34:3125 let's mark this as Remy 1. 09:34:32

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1 that it's a telephone call that was set up on 09:35:562 July 3. 09:35:593 MR. JOHNSON: Can I interrupt you for just 09:36:004 a second? I don't want to throw you off, but 09:36:015 it may be helpful to you. Dr. Emmert's letter 09:36:046 to Dr. Erickson refers to an earlier discussion 09:36:067 in it. 09:36:098 MR. HAVERSTICK: Between the two of them. 09:36:129 MR. JOHNSON: It just says, "As we 09:36:14

10 discussed." So it implies that there was some 09:36:1411 communication. 09:36:1612 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:36:1713 Q And -- but, again, if there was an 09:36:1814 earlier conversation, a telephonic conversation, 09:36:1815 say, between the two presidents, as we sit here 09:36:2116 today, you don't recall that? 09:36:2417 A I don't recall that specifically. But, 09:36:2618 as I testified earlier, I wouldn't be surprised. 09:36:2719 And I actually think that a communication or 09:36:2920 more occurred during that time period. 09:36:3221 Q Do you -- seeing this document, do you 09:36:3322 remember, if not the call specifically, a call 09:36:3623 like this happening in November between all of 09:36:3824 you on this list? 09:36:4125 A I do recall the conversation 09:36:43

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1 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 1 was marked 09:34:382 for identification purposes.) 09:34:383 THE WITNESS: Okay. 09:34:574 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:34:575 Q First off, you don't recall making any 09:35:016 contact with Penn State prior to Dr. Emmert's 09:35:047 letter to President Erickson? 09:35:108 A I don't recall specifically. 09:35:169 Q All right. 09:35:18

10 A But, again, if you have documents -- 09:35:1811 this is a call that appears to be scheduled on 09:35:1912 the 23rd, so it's after. 09:35:2213 Q It's after. Right. 09:35:2314 This -- I will tell you that as far as I 09:35:2615 know, this is the first indicator of a 09:35:2916 communication involving you and anyone at 09:35:3317 Penn State. 09:35:3818 A Okay. 09:35:3919 Q Looking at this document, does it -- 09:35:4020 does it give you any better insight of whether 09:35:4221 this was, in fact, the first communication you 09:35:4422 had or were -- whether there were ones preceding 09:35:4623 it? 09:35:4924 A It doesn't. And I don't specifically 09:35:5125 remember this communication either. But I see 09:35:53

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1 occurring -- I don't recall that all of these 09:36:452 individuals were on that conversation -- 09:36:483 subsequent to the letter being sent to 09:36:504 Penn State, yes. 09:36:535 Q What do you recall the conversation 09:36:546 being about? 09:36:577 A About, one, that they either had or were 09:36:598 in the process of retaining former federal judge 09:37:029 and director of the FBI Louie Freeh to conduct 09:37:05

10 an independent investigation; and then, two, 09:37:1011 given that, whether or not we could change the 09:37:1212 time frame within which they would have to 09:37:1613 respond to the questions that Dr. Emmert had put 09:37:1814 forward. 09:37:2115 Q Is that, to your recollection, the first 09:37:2216 time that you learned that Penn State University 09:37:2417 would be retaining the Freeh Group, or any 09:37:2618 outside investigator, to do an investigation? 09:37:3119 A I may have read about it in the -- in 09:37:3420 the newspaper before I actually had the call, 09:37:3621 but if I -- if I did, that would be the only way 09:37:3922 I would have known. 09:37:4223 Q It wasn't discussed, at least between 09:37:4324 you -- I mean, to the extent this is not a 09:37:4525 privileged conversation, it was not discussed 09:37:47


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1 between you and anyone inside the organization, 09:37:492 that you recall, prior to this phone call? 09:37:513 A Yeah. I wouldn't have any reason to 09:37:544 discuss it or any knowledge of it. 09:37:565 Q Do you remember who raised the issue of 09:37:596 seeking more time to respond to Dr. Emmert's 09:38:067 letter in light of the Freeh investigation? Was 09:38:098 it the Penn State side? 09:38:129 A It was. Again, I don't know if it was 09:38:13

10 this call. But the purpose of the call that we 09:38:1511 did have, that I do recall, was to, again, 09:38:1712 inform us of the retention of director Freeh and 09:38:2013 to ask for more time, in whatever sense that 09:38:2414 meant, around responding to the questions that 09:38:2715 we had provided them. 09:38:3016 Q Was there agreement on this call at that 09:38:3117 time to give Penn State more time to respond to 09:38:3318 the four questions? 09:38:3619 A I believe so. You know, we recognized 09:38:3820 that they were going to undertake an independent 09:38:4021 investigation of these matters, and they 09:38:4322 indicated that that investigation would provide 09:38:4523 them with additional information that would be 09:38:4824 helpful to responding to the questions. 09:38:4925 And so, you know, we were more than 09:38:52

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1 THE WITNESS: You know, to the best of my 09:39:572 recollection, I would say I probably had a 09:39:583 couple of those conversations with the general 09:39:594 counsel of Penn State at the time. 09:40:025 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:40:036 Q Cynthia Baldwin? 09:40:047 A Yes. I believe that's who it was. 09:40:058 Q Were those over the telephone? 09:40:079 A Yeah. I don't believe I ever met her in 09:40:09

10 person. 09:40:1111 Q Not in letter form or e-mail form? 09:40:1112 A I mean, there may have been a 09:40:1513 communication that memorialized how we were 09:40:1614 going to move forward with respect to allowing 09:40:1915 the Freeh investigation to proceed and with 09:40:2216 respect to how Penn State would answer the 09:40:2517 questions that had been posed. That may have 09:40:2818 come in form of a letter that we discussed. But 09:40:3019 I don't -- I don't recall any e-mails back and 09:40:3520 forth between Ms. Baldwin. 09:40:3721 Q Do you recall whether NCAA or Penn State 09:40:4022 first broached the idea of NCAA participation -- 09:40:4623 potential participation in the Freeh Group 09:40:4824 investigation? 09:40:5225 A You know, I don't recall that 09:40:53

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1 willing to accommodate whatever the member 09:38:542 needed in order to provide us the information we 09:38:563 needed. 09:38:594 Q Do you recall in this conversation, 09:39:005 whenever it was, whether NCAA participation in 09:39:036 any aspect of the Freeh Group investigation was 09:39:087 discussed? 09:39:118 A I don't know if it was in the first 09:39:129 call. May or may not have been. There were 09:39:14

10 conversations about how the NCAA would get 09:39:1711 answers to the questions and how the Freeh 09:39:2212 Report would move forward -- I mean, the Freeh 09:39:2513 investigation would move forward. 09:39:2614 At some point in time, it was discussed 09:39:2915 whether or not we would have access to 09:39:3116 information, or how we could potentially 09:39:3317 participate in -- in such an investigation. We 09:39:3618 had those conversations after director Freeh had 09:39:3919 been retained. 09:39:4320 Q Who had those conversations, to the best 09:39:4421 of your recollection? 09:39:4622 MR. JOHNSON: You're asking now 09:39:4923 conversations between the NCAA and Penn State? 09:39:4924 MR. HAVERSTICK: And Penn State. Right. 09:39:5125 Right. 09:39:56

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1 specifically. And I think a way to deal with 09:40:542 the question that you're asking is to just 09:40:563 understand how the dynamic works whenever you 09:40:594 have, in my experience and in the experience of 09:41:015 others at the association -- when you have an 09:41:056 investigation that's being conducted. 09:41:077 It is typical that you would have some 09:41:108 mode of communication between the investigators 09:41:159 and, you know, interested parties and the 09:41:18

10 organization that's participating in the 09:41:2311 investigation or that's commissioned the 09:41:2612 investigation. 09:41:2713 And in this context, the conversations 09:41:2814 were around how to approach this in a fashion 09:41:3015 that was consistent with the typical approaches. 09:41:3416 I mean, in prior investigations at the 09:41:3617 NCAA, as I understand from the experts on our 09:41:3818 staff, the NCAA has participated insofar as has 09:41:4119 even shadowed them at interviews and the like as 09:41:4420 investigations were undertaken by member 09:41:4921 institutions or even by third parties for member 09:41:5122 institutions. 09:41:5523 In my experience as a lawyer, having 09:41:5524 conducted internal investigations, I have seen 09:41:5825 it happen in those types of fashions. So the 09:42:01


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1 early conversations were about how to structure 09:42:042 this in a way that's similar to what people 09:42:063 recognize and understand as a typical approach 09:42:094 to an internal investigation. 09:42:135 Q Do you know if -- well, let's ask this 09:42:166 it way: In these conversations with -- with 09:42:217 Cynthia Baldwin, did anyone else from Penn State 09:42:268 participate? Was it just the two of you, in 09:42:309 other words? 09:42:32

10 A Yeah, I don't -- I don't recall. I 09:42:3211 really don't recall. And I don't want make it 09:42:3412 appear as if there were a number of 09:42:3613 conversations, because there weren't. At most I 09:42:3814 may have talked to Ms. Baldwin two, maybe three 09:42:4015 times at -- at most. 09:42:4216 And so this wasn't a -- you know, an 09:42:4417 ongoing day-to-day conversation, where she 09:42:4618 brought a lot of people in and I brought a lot 09:42:4819 of people in. It really was, you know, how are 09:42:5020 we going to move forward? 09:42:5221 And -- and then at some point, her 09:42:5422 instruction was to talk to the Freeh Group about 09:42:5623 how their investigation was going to unfold and 09:42:5924 what role we may or may not be able to play. 09:43:0225 Q Where did that -- to your knowledge, 09:43:06

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1 remember, at that time, and at most times, there 09:43:552 was still this question of, how is Penn State 09:44:003 going to respond to the questions so that the 09:44:034 NCAA can have adequate information to evaluate 09:44:065 these circumstances? 09:44:086 And so I believe -- and I don't want to 09:44:097 speak for her. You guys can talk to her. I 09:44:118 believe what Penn State was thinking was the 09:44:149 Freeh Group report, or the Freeh Group 09:44:16

10 investigation, would provide them with 09:44:2011 information that would be useful to them in 09:44:2112 responding to these questions, which were still 09:44:2413 on the table. 09:44:2614 And so that's how people were thinking 09:44:2715 about it, you know, how do we make sure that we 09:44:2916 have the data and information necessary to 09:44:3117 respond to the questions that the NCAA has 09:44:3418 posed? 09:44:3619 Q So rather than have there be multiple 09:44:3720 layers to it, it sounds like the approach that 09:44:4121 was being discussed was, give you, meaning NCAA, 09:44:4322 more immediate access to the information so that 09:44:4523 you can have the questions answered as we're 09:44:4824 moving along in real-time, rather than sort of 09:44:5025 be structured, here is our answer, based on 09:44:52

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1 where did that instruction come from? 09:43:062 A I think I said it was from her. I'm 09:43:093 not -- 09:43:124 Q Oh, I misunderstood. 09:43:125 Her instruction -- it was an instruction 09:43:146 from her to you? 09:43:157 A Yeah. 09:43:178 Q Not that she was instructed by someone 09:43:179 to -- 09:43:20

10 A I can't say what happened at Penn State. 09:43:2111 Q You don't know. 09:43:2312 But she instructed you to get in touch 09:43:2313 with the Freeh Group. 09:43:2614 A Yeah. She offered that this might be a 09:43:2715 way to go about framing whatever the involvement 09:43:2916 might have been. 09:43:3117 Q By the -- by the time that she had given 09:43:3118 you that instruction, to use your word, had you 09:43:3219 and Ms. Baldwin come to some consensus about 09:43:3720 NCAA's participation looking like what it 09:43:4221 normally would, as you described, in other 09:43:4422 investigations? 09:43:4623 A No, I don't think we reached a consensus 09:43:4824 or anything. It was a brainstorming session in 09:43:5025 terms of how we may be able to do this, because, 09:43:53

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1 blah, blah, blah? 09:44:552 A No. And that's not what I meant. 09:44:553 MR. JOHNSON: Let me just object to the 09:44:564 form of that. 09:44:565 Then you can answer. 09:44:576 THE WITNESS: I object to the form of 09:44:587 that. 09:45:008 No. I know, I know. 09:45:019 But what I was going to say is, 09:45:02

10 that's -- that's not what I said. And if 09:45:0311 that's how it came out, let me try to 09:45:0412 rephrase it for you. 09:45:0613 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:45:0714 Q Okay. 09:45:0815 A It wasn't for the purpose of Penn State 09:45:0816 responding to the questions as the investigation 09:45:1117 went on. It was for the purpose of Penn State 09:45:1318 being able to have the information that it 09:45:1819 needed to determine how to respond to those 09:45:2020 questions at the end of the investigation. 09:45:2421 Q So, if I -- if I understand better now 09:45:2722 your answer -- and I apologize for not getting 09:45:3123 it the first time -- was it your thought that 09:45:3324 NCAA's participation could help elicit the 09:45:3825 information that Penn State would need in order 09:45:41


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1 to correctly answer the questions? 09:45:432 In other words, Freeh Group, by 09:45:443 discussing -- or involving NCAA in the matter, 09:45:504 would then be able to provide data and do an 09:45:545 investigation that would, in fact, give 09:46:006 Penn State the tools to answer the questions 09:46:017 that you-all were looking for? 09:46:038 A At this time I really don't understand 09:46:069 your question. Maybe you could break it down 09:46:07

10 for me. 09:46:1011 Q It might get -- it may a little verbose. 09:46:1112 I understood your answer to the previous 09:46:2113 question to mean that Penn State desired -- or 09:46:2414 you-all, you and Dr. Baldwin, thought that 09:46:3115 NCAA's involvement could assist in Penn State's 09:46:3416 answering the questions in -- in Dr. Emmert's 09:46:3717 letter. Right? 09:46:4118 A No. I really must be not communicating 09:46:4219 well to you. 09:46:4420 It wasn't about NCAA's involvement or 09:46:4621 not in terms of Penn State's ability to respond 09:46:4822 to the questions. It was about the recognition 09:46:5223 that, at the end of this process, the questions 09:46:5724 would still be on the table. And there needed 09:47:0025 to be a vehicle to try to make sure that 09:47:03

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1 the questions. 09:48:122 Q Got it. 09:48:123 And that included the interaction with 09:48:134 the Freeh Group so Freeh Group understood what 09:48:165 it was NCAA was looking for as well? 09:48:196 A I mean, I can't speak for Freeh Group. 09:48:217 But, yes, we did have interaction with the 09:48:248 Freeh Group, which further shaped the way the 09:48:269 engagement would occur. 09:48:28

10 Q I'm going to direct your attention to a 09:48:3011 document we'll mark as 2. 09:48:4412 (Thereupon, Exhibit Numbers 2, 3, 4 & 5 09:48:4513 were marked for identification purposes.) 09:48:4514 THE WITNESS: Okay. 09:48:4515 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:48:4616 Q A couple things I would like to ask 09:49:2217 about this e-mail. First, the beginning e-mail 09:49:2318 in the chain is one from Cynthia Baldwin to you, 09:49:3019 dated November 27, 2011, and discusses a contact 09:49:3320 with Ken Frazier. 09:49:4321 MR. JOHNSON: I'm am not sure that's right 09:49:4522 in the exhibit. There's one on the prior page 09:49:4623 that's earlier, I believe. 09:49:4924 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yeah, you're right. I 09:49:5225 beg your pardon. Thank you. 09:49:53

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1 Penn State had adequate information to respond 09:47:062 to those questions at the end of the day. 09:47:093 And so as we approached it, when you 09:47:124 think about the answers that I have given to 09:47:145 your various questions, the first approach was 09:47:166 about, typically, how do you engage in these 09:47:187 types of investigations? 09:47:228 Well, typically, you engage in a fashion 09:47:239 that's cooperative and that's engaging, where 09:47:24

10 you can provide information or receive 09:47:2711 information as you go along so you can determine 09:47:3012 where things are going to be at the end of the 09:47:3313 road of the investigation. That was a 09:47:3614 conversation around, typically, what do you do 09:47:3815 in these circumstances? 09:47:3916 The second part of my answer which was 09:47:4217 to a different question, was about why -- why 09:47:4418 would you need to have the questions answered, 09:47:4819 -- which is what I thought you were asking. 09:47:5220 And what I was saying was, the NCAA's 09:47:5421 involvement was to provide information so that 09:47:5722 everyone could understand what the questions 09:48:0123 were and what the expectations were at the end 09:48:0324 of that investigation so we could have that data 09:48:0625 to process and Penn State could use it to answer 09:48:09

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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 09:49:592 Q Let's take a look at that one. 09:50:013 A Uh-huh. 09:50:034 Q This e-mail is dated November 23, 2011. 09:50:055 Does this assist your recollection about when 09:50:076 you would have been having your conversations 09:50:137 with Ms. Baldwin regarding the Freeh Group? 09:50:178 A I mean, the document says what it says. 09:50:219 It's consistent with what we've been talking 09:50:23

10 about. But there were conversations, and I 09:50:2511 presume from here there's a communication, 09:50:2712 indicating a follow-up. 09:50:2813 Q And this is roughly in the time frame 09:50:3114 that you would have been talking? 09:50:3215 A Yes. 09:50:3416 Q All right. 09:50:3417 A After the letter was sent. 09:50:3518 Q When you refer to the co-chairs, is that 09:50:3719 a reference to the co-chairs of Penn State's 09:50:3920 special investigative committee, if you 09:50:4221 remember? 09:50:4322 A I -- I don't recall. I don't recall. 09:50:4423 Q Now let's go up to the one that I 09:50:4724 thought was the first one, but it's not. 09:50:4925 This is a note from Ms. Baldwin to you 09:50:52


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1 several days later. Did you ever have a contact 09:50:562 with Ken Frazier? 09:51:003 A I don't recall ever having such a 09:51:034 contact. 09:51:055 Q Do you know if Dr. Emmert had a contact 09:51:056 with Ken Frazier? 09:51:087 A I believe that he did. 09:51:098 Q Do you know whether that contact 09:51:109 happened in or around the time of November 27? 09:51:12

10 A I -- I don't recall that. You would 09:51:1611 have to show me something. 09:51:1712 Q Do you know -- well, let me ask if you 09:51:2013 know, and then we may have to get to Part 2. 09:51:2114 Do you know what Dr. Emmert and Ken 09:51:2415 Frazier discussed in their telephone call, 09:51:2616 whenever it happened? 09:51:2917 MR. JOHNSON: So answer that "yes" or 09:51:3118 "no." 09:51:3119 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. How about 09:51:3220 that answer? 09:51:3321 MR. JOHNSON: All right. I forgot that 09:51:3422 possibility. 09:51:3623 Q Then, we can skip to the harder one. 09:51:4024 There are then some e-mails between 09:51:4325 Dr. Emmert and you and a Diane Young. Is 09:51:48

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1 around -- it may be, to your earlier point, a 09:52:552 conversation that he's going to have with 09:53:003 Dr. Frazier. 09:53:024 Q Well, I -- and I expect that you likely 09:53:045 would be correct about this. But if we hit a 09:53:076 spot where you don't remember the specific text, 09:53:117 I think the way I would like to proceed is that 09:53:138 we take a very short break, you look at it, and 09:53:169 then you can come back and say, "I've looked at 09:53:19

10 it. It, in fact, was for the purpose of -- I 09:53:2111 mean, I can tell you now I've read it. It was 09:53:2212 for the purpose of providing legal advice." 09:53:2413 MR. JOHNSON: I think that's fair, Matt, 09:53:2614 if that's what you would like to do. We need 09:53:2715 to have an understanding with each other that, 09:53:2816 to the extent that what he reads refreshes some 09:53:3017 recollection, you won't then contend that 09:53:3318 you're entitled to what he read. 09:53:3419 MR. HAVERSTICK: No. The purpose of -- 09:53:3620 the purpose of showing him the unredacted text 09:53:3821 is purely so that he can evaluate right now 09:53:4422 whether the communication was for the purpose 09:53:4723 of providing legal advice. That's it. 09:53:5024 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Do you want to take a 09:53:5325 break now? 09:53:54

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1 Diane Young an executive assistant at NCAA? 09:51:532 A She was at the time. 09:51:563 Q All right. If you know, from looking at 09:51:584 this e-mail as is, answer. And this may be a 09:52:015 spot where we need to take a break if you don't 09:52:046 know. 09:52:077 Were the communications between 09:52:078 Ms. Young, Dr. Emmert, and you that are redacted 09:52:119 here ones that were made for the purpose of 09:52:16

10 providing legal advice? 09:52:1811 A I -- I can only presume that they -- I 09:52:2312 don't know what the communication is in this 09:52:2513 box, but I can only presume that because it's 09:52:2614 redacted, it's redacted for privilege purposes. 09:52:2815 Q Do you need to look at -- would you -- I 09:52:3216 mean, if you don't remember it, presumably you 09:52:3217 need to look at it to tell us whether, in fact, 09:52:3418 it was a communication for that purpose. Is 09:52:3519 that fair? 09:52:3820 A I mean, I trust that, in our analysis of 09:52:3921 the documents, we identified privileged 09:52:4222 information. So whatever occurred here is 09:52:4423 likely something where Mark is either asking for 09:52:4624 my advice, from a legal perspective, or 09:52:5025 providing information for me to give him advice 09:52:53

Page 571 MR HAVERSTICK: Yeah, let's take a break 09:53:552 MR JOHNSON: That's fine Let's go off 09:53:563 the record 09:53:574 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 09:53:585 9:52 09:54:006 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken ) 09:54:007 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Now back on the record 11:21:098 at 11:19 11:21:109 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 11:21:12

10 Q Mr Remy, while we were off the record, 11:21:1411 you reviewed a selection of documents that, in 11:21:1512 the interest of time, we pulled from exhibits 11:21:2013 potentially we were going to show you They 11:21:2514 were redactions made by your counsel And my 11:21:2715 understanding was that the assertion over those 11:21:3316 documents, the reason for the redaction was the 11:21:3517 attorney-client privilege 11:21:3818 Have you had a chance -- I don't want to 11:21:4019 know the substance of any of them -- but have 11:21:4120 you had a chance to review the unredacted 11:21:4421 portions of the documents? 11:21:4622 A I have 11:21:4723 Q And explain your answer however you and 11:21:5024 Kip need to, but for the record, is it your 11:21:5225 assertion that for those redactions, save for 11:21:58


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1 one document which we can identify later or put 11:22:012 in the record, that the redacted portions of 11:22:043 those documents contain information exchanged by 11:22:074 or among you for the purpose of providing legal 11:22:115 advice? 11:22:136 A Either for the purpose of providing 11:22:157 legal advice or gathering information to provide 11:22:168 legal advice. Yes. 11:22:189 Q I see. 11:22:20

10 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I do think you want to 11:22:2311 be clear, Donald, that there are two documents 11:22:2512 that are communications between you and 11:22:2813 representatives of the Big Ten where the 11:22:3014 assertion of the privilege is different than 11:22:3215 NCAA attorney-client, purely NCAA 11:22:3616 attorney-client privilege. And, Matt, I can 11:22:3817 just -- you can ask Donald these questions, but 11:22:3918 the two -- the two communications with 11:22:4119 Mr. Barrett, the privilege asserted there is a 11:22:4520 community of interest joint defense privilege. 11:22:4721 These aren't strictly internal NCAA 11:22:5022 attorney-client communications, so the legal 11:22:5323 basis is slightly different. 11:22:5524 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 11:22:5825 Q It's slightly different. I understand. 11:22:58

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1 MR. JOHNSON: The other thing is we should 11:24:122 probably -- and we can do it at the next 11:24:133 break -- identify into the record the document 11:24:134 numbers that Donald did review, just so that 11:24:155 that will be reflected. 11:24:186 MR. HAVERSTICK: I think that's a very 11:24:217 good idea. Thank you. I should have thought 11:24:228 of that before. 11:24:249 Q All right. We will revisit those 11:24:27

10 Barrett documents at the appropriate time. And 11:24:3111 we'll move on. 11:24:3212 I want to get my -- for the record, I'm 11:24:3513 tapping my own head. I want to get my mind 11:24:3914 wrapped back around where we were when we broke. 11:24:4415 We were discussing, if you recall, your 11:24:4716 conversations with Cynthia Baldwin regarding the 11:24:4917 Freeh Group. Remember that? 11:24:5318 A Correct. And I think you had put a 11:24:5519 document in front of me with the last question 11:24:5620 that was pending before we went on the break. 11:24:5921 Q I did. And it was one of the ones that 11:25:0322 hadn't contained redactions. 11:25:1023 A Indeed. 11:25:1224 Q We'll move on from that document, 11:25:1225 because I think the remainder of my questions on 11:25:15

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1 Mr. Remy, for purposes of today and without 11:22:582 waiver of down the line ever testing the 11:23:033 assertion of privilege, I'm going to accept your 11:23:114 representation for all those documents except 11:23:145 for the two Barrett documents. And when I get 11:23:166 around to it and at the appropriate time, I may 11:23:187 ask you a couple questions just to flesh out the 11:23:208 stated basis. But for the others, I'm just 11:23:249 going to not bother with going through the rote 11:23:26

10 of asking you for every one. 11:23:2911 A I think that's a fair way to proceed. 11:23:3112 And Kip's characterization of the two documents 11:23:3313 with respect to the Big Ten is an accurate 11:23:3614 characterization. 11:23:3915 MR. JOHNSON: Just before we move on, let 11:23:4016 me ask you a question. We did in a 11:23:4217 conversation off the record withdraw our 11:23:4418 assertion of privilege for document production 11:23:4619 number 62538, which we have produced to you. 11:23:4820 I'm under the understanding that you won't 11:23:5121 contend that it's a broader waiver if it's 11:23:5422 privileged. The other thing -- 11:23:5823 MR. KOWALSKI: That is the factual basis. 11:24:0024 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, I said the wrong number. 11:24:0225 MR. KOWALSKI: NCAA JC14375. 11:24:04

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1 the document related to the redactions and we've 11:25:152 now fixed that up. 11:25:173 Is it a fair summation of your testimony 11:25:214 that Cynthia Baldwin instructed you to 11:25:255 communicate -- you, meaning NCAA, not 11:25:326 necessarily you or only you, you NCAA -- to 11:25:347 communicate with Freeh Group and work out how 11:25:378 the interaction between Freeh Group and NCAA was 11:25:419 supposed to go from there on? 11:25:44

10 A Yes. I think what I testified to before 11:25:4611 we took the break was that I had received 11:25:4812 instructions from Cynthia Baldwin that we could 11:25:5013 communicate with the Freeh Group to work out how 11:25:5314 those communications would occur with the Freeh 11:25:5715 Group moving forward. 11:25:5916 Q Did she put any restrictions or 11:26:0017 parameters on the nature or manner of your 11:26:0118 interaction with the Freeh Group? 11:26:0419 A Yeah, I don't recall that. 11:26:0620 Q Do you know whether anyone else inside 11:26:0821 Penn State at that time was aware of your 11:26:1222 conversation with Ms. Baldwin and her 11:26:1523 instruction to you? 11:26:1824 A Well, the e-mail that you showed me a 11:26:1925 little while ago suggests that -- that Ken 11:26:21


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1 Frazier was aware of the NCAA's contact with the 11:26:242 Freeh Group. 11:26:293 Q You're referencing the document that we 11:26:304 looked at right before the break. 11:26:325 A Correct. 11:26:336 Q And that's an interchange regarding the 11:26:347 potential phone call between you and 11:26:368 Mr. Frazier? 11:26:389 A Correct. 11:26:39

10 Q You never had a phone call with 11:26:4011 Mr. Frazier. 11:26:4012 A I don't recall having a phone call with 11:26:4013 Mr. Frazier. 11:26:4014 MR. JOHNSON: Let him finish the question. 11:26:4415 MR. HAVERSTICK: I'll try to slow down. 11:26:4616 Q You never had a phone call with 11:26:4817 Mr. Frazier. 11:26:5018 A I don't recall having a phone call with 11:26:5119 Mr. Frazier. 11:26:5220 Q And do you remember -- I know I asked 11:26:5321 this. I don't remember the answer. Do you 11:26:5622 remember if Dr. Emmert had a phone call with 11:26:5823 Mr. Frazier about the Freeh Group? 11:27:0124 A I think what I said before was I recall 11:27:0725 that Dr. Emmert had a phone call with 11:27:09

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1 says this, does this refresh your 11:28:282 recollection about a phone call. 11:28:303 MR. JOHNSON: Sure. 11:28:324 MR. HAVERSTICK: I'll put them into 11:28:335 evidence if you want. I'm happy to show the 11:28:346 witness or we can just not. 11:28:367 MR. JOHNSON: I think if they're just to 11:28:398 jog his memory, it's probably unnecessary to 11:28:409 mark them if it's faster to just go. If it 11:28:42

10 does jog his memory, then we should. 11:28:4511 MR. HAVERSTICK: I think it would make it 11:28:5012 move faster. 11:28:5213 MR. JOHNSON: That's fine. 11:28:5314 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 11:28:5515 Q Five. 11:28:5616 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 5 was marked 11:28:5617 for identification purposes.) 11:28:5618 Q You've taken a look at this one? 11:29:2919 A I have. 11:29:3120 Q First off, I gather that Tommie Walls, 11:29:3221 who's on this e-mail, is your assistant? 11:29:3622 A She was at the time. 11:29:4023 Q At that time, did she participate in 11:29:4224 telephone calls that you had? And by 11:29:4625 participate, I mean listen in to take notes. 11:29:48

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1 Mr. Frazier. Yeah, I don't know the total 11:27:112 contents of that phone call because I wasn't on 11:27:143 it. 11:27:164 Q Do you know any of the contents of the 11:27:165 phone call? 11:27:186 A No, I don't. 11:27:187 Q So we're clear, your supposition about 11:27:248 whether Mr. -- whether Cynthia Baldwin had 11:27:279 informed Mr. Frazier of her conversation with 11:27:30

10 you is based on your read of that e-mail? It's 11:27:3211 not something you remember? 11:27:3612 A Yeah, I don't specifically recall. 11:27:4113 MR. HAVERSTICK: Okay. We took -- 11:27:4414 hopefully, in an effort to move things along, 11:27:4815 we took the liberty of premarking a lot of the 11:27:5016 exhibits that we may use while we were out. 11:27:5317 But I'll ask this right now and this may 11:27:5618 help with the process, too. There are 11:28:0019 several documents that I'm happy to show the 11:28:0220 witness and I'm happy to mark as exhibits, 11:28:0921 but really all I need to do is reference them 11:28:1222 and ask him -- for instance, the little note 11:28:1623 that you get when you have an Outlook phone 11:28:1924 call. And my intent was for a lot of those 11:28:2125 to just say, I'm looking at a document that 11:28:25

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1 A No. 11:29:512 Q This e-mail is to Judge Sullivan. It 11:29:563 reads, "It was a pleasure speaking with you 11:30:014 today." Do you recall a telephone call with 11:30:035 Judge Sullivan on December 1, 2011? 11:30:076 A That I had? 11:30:117 Q Yes. 11:30:118 A I think this e-mail reflects Tommie 11:30:129 Walls having a conversation with Judge Sullivan 11:30:14

10 about scheduling, nothing more than that. I 11:30:1711 don't recall specifically having a conversation 11:30:2112 with him on that day. 11:30:2313 Q Okay. So you don't -- you didn't -- 11:30:2414 whatever phone call occurred with Ms. Walls and 11:30:2615 Judge Sullivan, to your recollection you weren't 11:30:3016 on it? 11:30:3117 A I can't say that there was never a call 11:30:3318 with Judge Sullivan. I don't recall 11:30:3419 specifically when and whether I may have spoken 11:30:3620 with him. 11:30:3921 But as I read this e-mail that you put 11:30:4022 in front of me, it appears to be related to 11:30:4223 scheduling. 11:30:4424 Q It doesn't ring a bell about any 11:30:4525 particular phone call you had? 11:30:47


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1 A No. 11:30:492 Q Okay. Six. 11:30:493 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 6 was marked 11:30:534 for identification purposes.) 11:30:535 MR. GARDEN: We're going to have to 11:31:076 correct the record or we can just call this one 11:31:087 3. 11:31:108 MR. JOHNSON: You should call that one 4 11:31:119 and the earlier one 3. 11:31:13

10 MR. GARDEN: I'll just cross this out and 11:31:1411 we can do the same for that. 11:31:1412 MR. HAVERSTICK: When I'm calling out the 11:31:1813 numbers, I mean my tab. 11:31:1914 MR. GARDEN: No, I understand. I just 11:31:2115 used the wrong sticker. 11:31:2116 MR. HAVERSTICK: I'm nowhere near quick 11:31:2117 enough to keep track of how many numbers are on 11:31:2318 the little stickers. 11:31:2519 THE WITNESS: I've read it. 11:31:5420 Q Do you recall a conversation with Omar 11:31:5521 McNeill and Mr. Barrett on 12/5/2011? 11:32:0022 A This e-mail to me doesn't suggest that 11:32:1323 there was a call with both Jon Barrett and Omar 11:32:1624 McNeill, but it appears to indicate that there 11:32:1925 was a call between me and Jon Barrett on that 11:32:22

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1 piecemeal fashion. Who decided to have a 11:33:192 meeting with whom? 11:33:263 A I don't recall the initiation of the 11:33:294 meeting. What I recall is that there was a 11:33:315 discussion that included Penn State, that 11:33:346 subsequently included the Freeh Group, about 11:33:387 meeting with the Freeh Group to talk about the 11:33:408 things we talked about earlier today with 11:33:439 respect to their investigation. 11:33:45

10 Q And by the things we talked about 11:33:4811 earlier today, you mean the interaction between 11:33:4912 Freeh Group and NCAA as Freeh Group did its 11:33:5213 investigation. 11:33:5514 A Yeah. To define or describe whatever 11:33:5615 that interaction might be. I don't know that 11:33:5716 I'd characterize it necessarily as an 11:33:5917 interaction, but this was a conversation to 11:34:0118 figure out how the cooperation would work with 11:34:0319 the Freeh Group. 11:34:0520 Q When was your first contact with anyone 11:34:0621 at Freeh Group? 11:34:0822 A I couldn't tell you the date, because I 11:34:1123 don't recall the dates that specifically. But 11:34:1424 it had to have been around this time. 11:34:1925 Q Do you remember the identity of whom you 11:34:20

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1 day. 11:32:252 Q Do you remember that telephone call? 11:32:263 A I don't have a specific recollection of 11:32:284 the telephone call. 11:32:295 Q Do you have a general recollection of 11:32:316 having a telephone call with Jon Barrett? 11:32:337 A I do. 11:32:368 Q Can you tell me the topic of the 11:32:379 telephone call? 11:32:39

10 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, I think the topic is 11:32:4011 fine. I invite you to consider whether the 11:32:4212 communications between yourself and Mr. Barrett 11:32:4513 would be subject to the joint defense privilege 11:32:4614 that we discussed on the record earlier. 11:32:4915 THE WITNESS: I understand. I have a 11:32:5116 general recollection of the telephone call and 11:32:5417 it was about attendance at a meeting. 11:32:5718 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 11:33:0019 Q What meeting? 11:33:0120 A A meeting that we were going to have 11:33:0321 with the Freeh Group. We, meaning the NCAA. 11:33:0522 Q How was this meeting arranged? 11:33:0823 A You mean -- what do you mean by how was 11:33:1224 it arranged? 11:33:1625 Q Well, I'll ask it maybe in a more 11:33:16

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1 had contact with? 11:34:222 A The first contact may in fact have been 11:34:243 with Judge Sullivan about scheduling a time to 11:34:314 get together and meet. 11:34:355 Q Do you recall whether there was any 11:34:396 substance in that conversation? In other words, 11:34:457 was it purely a scheduling session or did you 11:34:478 talk at all about more than, hey, let's get 11:34:509 together to talk about what we're going to do? 11:34:54

10 A Yeah. My recollection is that we talked 11:34:5611 about those substantive things when we met. Not 11:34:5812 at a time period before that. 11:35:0213 Q Do you recall if you called him or he 11:35:0414 called you? 11:35:0615 A I don't recall that. 11:35:0716 Q Do you recall whether this outreach was 11:35:1117 -- was occasioned by Cynthia Baldwin instructing 11:35:1718 you to reach out to Freeh? I mean, is that the 11:35:2119 natural next step after Cynthia Baldwin 11:35:2320 instructed you to get in touch with the Freeh 11:35:2621 folks? 11:35:2822 A Yeah. I guess the easiest way to think 11:35:2923 about this is we were having conversations with 11:35:3124 Penn State about how they were going to move 11:35:3325 forward with having Judge Freeh conduct his 11:35:34


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1 investigation in order to define what role, if 11:35:392 any, the NCAA would have there in cooperating 11:35:433 with that investigation. We talked to the Freeh 11:35:454 Group. I don't remember the specific dates of 11:35:485 each of those conversations, but I can say that 11:35:526 everybody was aware that we were planning on 11:35:547 talking to the Freeh Group and that we, in fact, 11:35:578 talked to them and that resulted in the 11:35:599 determination of how we can move forward and 11:36:01

10 what that would look like. 11:36:0311 Q When -- is this the first time to your 11:36:0512 knowledge that Big Ten or any of its 11:36:0713 representatives -- and you can object to this 11:36:0914 term -- but injected themselves into your 11:36:1415 conversations with Freeh Group? 11:36:1716 A I don't remember how it came to be that 11:36:2017 the Big Ten was involved. But it wasn't as 11:36:2218 you've described. I wouldn't say injected 11:36:2619 themselves into our conversations. I think as 11:36:2820 we moved forward after -- after the Freeh 11:36:3121 investigation was commenced, we were trying to 11:36:3622 find a way so that we could all gather 11:36:3823 appropriate information under those 11:36:4124 circumstances to determine what the next steps 11:36:4325 would be. The Big Ten had it own process for 11:36:46

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1 both entities. 11:38:082 In this context, as we talked about how 11:38:103 we would move forward with these conversations, 11:38:124 we recognized that this is one of those 11:38:145 scenarios. If you're asking whether there's a 11:38:166 written joint defense, the answer to that is no. 11:38:187 If you're asking whether there was a 11:38:218 conversation and understanding that our 11:38:229 communications with one another about how we 11:38:25

10 were going to engage and move forward were 11:38:2811 subject to common interest and joint defense, 11:38:3012 the answer to that is yes. 11:38:3213 Q And when was that understanding arrived 11:38:3414 at, to the best of your knowledge? 11:38:3715 A Well, as I said, it's typical in all 11:38:3816 circumstances and in this circumstance prior to 11:38:4117 the time that we engaged -- I can't give you a 11:38:4218 date, because I simply don't recall the date. 11:38:4419 We talked about how we were going to go 11:38:4620 about doing this, both the NCAA and the Big Ten, 11:38:4821 and recognized that this, like many other 11:38:5122 circumstances that we have, is subject to our 11:38:5423 ordinary and common joint defense and common 11:38:5724 interest privilege. 11:38:5925 Q That was a conversation you recall 11:38:59

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1 engaging in that examination, as did the NCAA. 11:36:492 And this was a efficient way to go about 11:36:513 gathering that data and information. 11:36:564 Q Big Ten, like NCAA, was desirous of 11:36:585 getting information from Freeh Group during the 11:37:036 process to evaluate whatever Big Ten was going 11:37:067 to do? 11:37:088 A You'd have to ask the Big Ten, to be 11:37:099 honest. I don't -- I can't speak for why they 11:37:11

10 were doing what they were doing. 11:37:1311 Q Maybe this is an appropriate time to 11:37:1912 just get this out of the way. There was an 11:37:2213 assertion over two documents that we haven't 11:37:2614 looked at yet and we can look at, if that's -- 11:37:2815 if it's necessary for you to answer the 11:37:3216 question. But there was an assertion of a 11:37:3317 common interest and joint defense arrangement 11:37:3818 between NCAA and Big Ten. That's -- 11:37:4519 A Correct. 11:37:4820 Q Was -- did NCAA and Big Ten ever enter 11:37:5021 into a formal joint defense agreement? 11:37:5622 A It's typical that the NCAA with its 11:37:5823 member conferences has joint defense common 11:38:0124 interest arrangements when we were working 11:38:0425 toward something that relates to the interest of 11:38:07

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1 having with Jonathan Barrett? 11:39:012 A With Jon Barrett, yeah. 11:39:033 Q And was it prior to the time that you 11:39:044 had your initial meeting with the Freeh Group or 11:39:065 subsequent to that? 11:39:096 A I can't tell you the substance of the 11:39:127 conversation because, again, we'll then go back 11:39:148 into this joint defense common interest. 11:39:179 MR. JOHNSON: I think he's just asking 11:39:18

10 about a date. 11:39:1811 Q I just meant the date. Before or after? 11:39:1912 A It was before the meeting. 11:39:2013 Q It was before -- and we'll get to this 11:39:2114 in a minute. But it's a preview of the meeting 11:39:2315 of December 7. It was before the meeting that 11:39:2516 you had this conversation? 11:39:2617 A It was before we met with the Freeh 11:39:2818 Group, yes. 11:39:3019 Q You had a telephone call with Jonathan 11:39:3020 Barrett where you talked about this? 11:39:3221 A We did. 11:39:3522 Q Are you able to relay any of the 11:39:3723 contents of that phone call without invoking the 11:39:4124 joint defense privilege? 11:39:4925 MR. JOHNSON: I think the content of the 11:39:52


20 (Pages 74 to 77)

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1 phone call, Donald, that describes the joint 11:39:532 defense privilege, if that's what Matt is 11:39:563 asking you about, is something you could 11:39:584 convey, because that goes to basis of the 11:39:595 assertion. So if you recall that, you can 11:40:016 convey. 11:40:057 Q If you know. 11:40:058 A It's -- I mean, "It's pretty simple, 11:40:069 Jon. This is governed by our common interest 11:40:08

10 joint defense, right? Right." I don't know if 11:40:1011 I said it to him or he said it to me, but that's 11:40:1312 part of the conversation that we would have and 11:40:1513 we had at this time. 11:40:1714 Q What joint defense were you 11:40:2015 contemplating at this period of time? 11:40:2116 A Well, at this period of time, we didn't 11:40:2317 know what the next steps would be or how this 11:40:2418 would play out for anybody, right? We 11:40:2619 received -- we learned of the indictment and we 11:40:3020 learned of the Freeh investigation and we were 11:40:3321 trying to figure out what our next step would be 11:40:3622 and the Big Ten would try to figure out what its 11:40:3823 next step would be. Penn State is a member of 11:40:4124 both organizations. And so we were figuring out 11:40:4325 how we could examine the issues as we moved 11:40:48

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1 "yes" or "no" to that and if the answer is yes, 11:42:042 we'll take it more slowly. I think that's 11:42:053 probably right. 11:42:094 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't know how you 11:42:165 would answer that without revealing privileged 11:42:176 information. So we can recess. I don't know 11:42:227 how you'd answer it "yes" or "no" without 11:42:278 revealing that data. You asked whether or not 11:42:319 we had as part of our conversation a discussion 11:42:36

10 about litigation. 11:42:3911 Q Yes. 11:42:4112 A That was his question. 11:42:4213 Q This specific litigation. 11:42:4414 MR. JOHNSON: Why don't we just take a 11:42:4715 quick break and sort it through. But I think 11:42:4716 what Matt is getting at is we might not have 11:42:4917 full agreement about whether that's necessary 11:42:5318 to the assertion of the privilege, but I think 11:42:5419 what he wants to know is whether there was an 11:42:5620 exchange between you and Mr. Barrett about 11:42:5921 anticipating litigation. And if that's right, 11:43:0222 why don't we take a short break and -- 11:43:0523 Q That's exactly it. And if you're able 11:43:1024 to answer that question, I'm not necessarily 11:43:1225 asking what kind of litigation. I just -- I 11:43:15

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1 forward. 11:40:512 Q Did your telephonic agreement on the 11:40:513 joint defense arrangement between Big Ten and 11:41:004 NCAA ever get reduced to an e-mail or anything 11:41:045 like that? 11:41:086 A Not that I can recall. 11:41:097 Q Was the existence of the joint defense 11:41:108 arrangement ever discussed in front of Freeh 11:41:149 Group or Penn State? 11:41:18

10 A Not that I can recall. 11:41:2011 Q Did you anticipate any litigation at the 11:41:2212 time that you and Mr. Barrett agreed, we're 11:41:2513 going to treat this like we normally do, as 11:41:2714 joint defense? 11:41:3115 A You know, again, we didn't know where 11:41:3116 this was leading, neither the Big Ten nor the 11:41:3317 NCAA, once the indictment had been issued and 11:41:3518 once Judge Freeh had been retained by the Penn 11:41:4019 State Board of Trustees to conduct his 11:41:4520 investigation. Anything's possible, I guess is 11:41:4721 my answer. 11:41:5122 Q Anything's possible. You don't recall 11:41:5123 in your conversation with Mr. Barrett discussing 11:41:5324 specifically there could be litigation? 11:41:5725 MR. JOHNSON: I think you should answer 11:42:02

Page 771 want to understand whether the topic was 11:43:172 expressed specifically 11:43:193 A Let's take a quick break 11:43:214 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 11:43:235 11:41 11:43:246 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken ) 11:43:257 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 11:46:208 record at 11:44 11:46:219 MR JOHNSON: I think there was probably a 11:46:24

10 pending question Can we ask you to read that 11:46:2611 back? 11:46:2812 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 11:46:2813 record was read back by the court reporter ) 11:46:2814 MR JOHNSON: And then, Donald, I think 11:46:4815 because -- I think Matt's question goes to the 11:46:5016 basis for the assertion of the qualified 11:46:5317 privilege here I think you can answer that 11:46:5818 question "yes" or "no," but don't reveal 11:47:0119 further content of the communication 11:47:0320 THE WITNESS: Okay Yes 11:47:0521 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 11:47:0822 Q Based on -- on Kip's representation, I'm 11:47:1223 not going to -- I'll assume if I ask the 11:47:1624 question about the topic, you would not answer, 11:47:1825 so I'm not going to bother 11:47:20


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1 A That's correct. 11:47:222 Q I'm going to hand you a document that we 11:47:233 -- that I'm marking 5. 11:47:314 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 5 was marked 11:47:335 for identification purposes.) 11:47:336 Q As you read this, I will note that this 11:47:477 is not a document on which you appear to be 11:47:498 copied, nor are you the author, so when I ask 11:47:539 questions about it, I understand that these 11:47:56

10 aren't your words and you may not be able to 11:47:5811 answer my questions. 11:48:0012 A I've read it. 11:48:0213 Q Am I correct that you weren't blind 11:48:2714 carbon-copied on this e-mail? You weren't part 11:48:3015 of this traffic? 11:48:3316 A I don't believe so. 11:48:3517 Q Okay. This is an e-mail between Jon 11:48:3618 Barrett of Big Ten and Omar McNeill from Freeh 11:48:3919 Group. As an aside, we all know that there was 11:48:4320 interaction between NCAA and Freeh Group, right? 11:48:5021 A Interaction, yes. 11:48:5422 Q Were you running point on this 11:48:5823 interaction on behalf of NCAA? Were you the 11:49:0124 primary person who was working with NCAA or 11:49:0425 working with Freeh Group? 11:49:08

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1 Q Of course. 11:50:112 A As are the words of "Mayer Brown lead 11:50:113 its investigation." The conversation that I 11:50:164 recall with Jon was about -- 11:50:185 MR. JOHNSON: Hold on. 11:50:216 THE WITNESS: I'm not getting into the 11:50:227 details of that conversation scheduling a 11:50:238 meeting. 11:50:269 Q Do you agree with his characterization 11:50:27

10 that NCAA is collaborating with the Freeh Group? 11:50:2911 A I wouldn't characterize it that way, no. 11:50:3312 I don't disagree that the NCAA had intended on 11:50:3613 having a meeting with the Freeh Group to discuss 11:50:3914 how to move forward. 11:50:4115 Q How would you characterize it? 11:50:4216 MR. JOHNSON: Characterize what? 11:50:4417 MR. HAVERSTICK: Characterize NCAA's role 11:50:4618 with Freeh Group. 11:50:4719 MR. JOHNSON: As of December. 11:50:4920 Q As of December 5. Sure. 11:50:5021 A Yeah. As of December 5, consistent with 11:50:5122 what I've said a couple of times here this 11:50:5323 afternoon is the NCAA was going to communicate 11:50:5524 with the Freeh Group in the manner that it had 11:50:5925 communicated with Penn State to define how it 11:51:01

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1 A I guess the way that I would describe it 11:49:092 is that -- that I was the point of contact with 11:49:113 the Freeh Group. 11:49:144 Q That's what I'm driving at. 11:49:155 Was Mr. McNeill from Freeh Group the 11:49:176 corresponding fellow from Freeh Group who was 11:49:217 fulfilling that same role? 11:49:248 A He was the point of contact from Freeh 11:49:259 Group. 11:49:27

10 Q And Barrett from Big Ten was the third 11:49:2811 of the trio? 11:49:3012 A He was the point of contact from Big 11:49:3013 Ten. 11:49:3214 Q Mr. -- in the second or third sentence, 11:49:3415 Mr. Barrett writes, "The conferences asked that 11:49:3716 Mayer Brown lead its investigation of this 11:49:4017 matter and that we be allowed to participate 11:49:4318 with the Freeh Group's investigation, similar to 11:49:4519 the role that the NCAA is taking in 11:49:4720 collaborating with the Freeh Group." 11:49:5021 First, do you know what Mr. Barrett 11:49:5422 meant when he wrote or described the role that 11:50:0023 the NCAA is taking in collaborating with the 11:50:0424 Freeh Group? 11:50:0725 A Those are -- those are his words. 11:50:09

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1 would move forward in cooperating with their 11:51:042 investigation. 11:51:073 Q So at that time, you don't agree and 11:51:094 wouldn't characterize NCAA's interaction with 11:51:145 the Freeh Group as collaboration? 11:51:186 A At that time, I would characterize it as 11:51:217 we were trying to define exactly what that 11:51:238 engagement would look like. 11:51:269 Q Did it ever take on -- did you ever 11:51:27

10 consider to it be collaboration? 11:51:3211 MR. JOHNSON: I object to the form. 11:51:3512 Q Through the evolution -- 11:51:3713 A Yes. You know, through the discussions 11:51:3814 we had over time, I considered it to be 11:51:4215 communication. 11:51:4416 Q In the penultimate sentence, Mr. Barrett 11:51:5017 writes, "Donald Remy mentioned to me on Friday 11:51:5418 that he was planning to meet with the Freeh 11:51:5819 Group in State College this week to start the 11:51:5920 process of the NCAA's quote, on-the-ground, end 11:52:0221 quotes, investigation in collaboration with the 11:52:0722 Freeh Group." 11:52:1023 Did you have a call with Jonathan 11:52:1324 Barrett in which you said precisely or words to 11:52:1625 the effect that there would be a process of the 11:52:22


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1 NCAA's on-the-ground investigation in 11:52:272 collaboration with the Freeh Group? 11:52:303 MR. JOHNSON: Think about, Donald, in your 11:52:344 answer whether any communication with 11:52:365 Mr. Barrett would have been subject to the 11:52:376 joint defense privilege that you previously 11:52:397 described. If not, then answer the question. 11:52:418 And if so, just so indicate. 11:52:449 THE WITNESS: It would be the subject of 11:52:50

10 that privilege, but at the same time, I don't 11:52:5211 recall using the words "on the ground." 11:52:5612 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 11:53:0313 Q If I ask what words you did use, I 11:53:0514 assume that you would invoke the privilege and 11:53:1015 not answer the question? 11:53:1316 A Let's try it this way: If the line of 11:53:1517 questioning is, at this point in time, what did 11:53:2218 the NCAA think it was going to do as it related 11:53:2619 to its communications with the Freeh Group, I 11:53:3320 believe that I can talk to you about that. 11:53:3621 And I'm happy to talk to you about that 11:53:3922 rather than talk to you about communications and 11:53:4223 characterizations with Jon Barrett. Is that way 11:53:4424 helpful? 11:53:4825 Q It will be, but I also would like to 11:53:49

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1 without -- without needing to invoke the 11:54:402 privilege? 11:54:453 A Again, you are asking about the 11:54:464 communications that Jon and I had with one 11:54:485 another -- 11:54:506 Q Right. 11:54:517 A -- on whatever phone call or whatever 11:54:518 time we had those communications. I don't know 11:54:549 that I can do that, given the conversations we 11:54:57

10 had earlier about the common interest privilege. 11:55:0111 MR. JOHNSON: Matt, go ahead. 11:55:0412 THE WITNESS: But again, what I can do and 11:55:0613 what I'm willing to do is to talk to you about 11:55:0814 how the NCAA was thinking about how it would 11:55:1115 engage with the Freeh Group. That's not what I 11:55:1516 said to Jon Barrett. That's, you know, how are 11:55:2017 we thinking about this. 11:55:2318 Q And I'm very interested in that. And I 11:55:2419 think maybe my next question, rather than go 11:55:2720 steering out into -- the way I was going to ask 11:55:3121 it is allow you to explain that to me. But I do 11:55:3422 want to just confirm that you can't answer the 11:55:3723 specific question about what you said to Jon 11:55:4024 Barrett in this phone call that's referenced in 11:55:4225 the e-mail, right? 11:55:47

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1 know if you can answer the question specifically 11:53:512 what you recall saying to Jon Barrett. 11:53:543 MR. JOHNSON: Matt, this might help. Why 11:53:584 don't you ask Donald whether he has such a 11:53:595 recollection, so at least if we assert some 11:54:026 privilege, it will be clear whether or not 11:54:047 there's something to be gotten there. 11:54:058 MR. HAVERSTICK: Fair -- that's a fair 11:54:089 point. 11:54:09

10 Q You don't recall using words with 11:54:0911 Mr. Barrett "on the ground." I think that was 11:54:1212 your testimony? 11:54:1413 A I did testify that I don't recall using 11:54:1514 the phrase "on the ground." 11:54:1715 Q Do you have a recollection of what you 11:54:1816 said either generally or specifically to 11:54:2017 Mr. Barrett on this topic in the phone call he 11:54:2318 references? 11:54:2619 MR. JOHNSON: You can answer that "yes" or 11:54:2720 "no," I think, Donald. Just goes to what you 11:54:2821 recall. 11:54:3022 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11:54:3123 Q You have a recollection? 11:54:3124 A General recollection. 11:54:3325 Q Can you describe that recollection 11:54:35

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1 A Again, I don't have a specific 11:55:482 recollection of points of the conversation. I 11:55:513 have a general recollection of a conversation 11:55:544 that I had about Jon -- strike that -- I had 11:55:565 with Jon about how we would be moving forward. 11:55:596 We've discussed that that conversation is 11:56:017 subject to the privilege. 11:56:058 Q Fair enough. 11:56:069 MR. JOHNSON: Ordinarily, Matt, just 11:56:07

10 because we would all want to be efficient, I 11:56:0911 would suggest that Donald can answer this 11:56:1212 question so long as you wouldn't contend that 11:56:1413 it was a broader waiver. But because this is a 11:56:1614 shared privilege, I don't believe I have the 11:56:1915 latitude to do that. 11:56:2116 MR. HAVERSTICK: I think this is one we 11:56:2217 can just table and move on. I -- and I 11:56:2318 appreciate your offer to explain and I'm not 11:56:2819 going to take you up on that, but I wanted to 11:56:3020 sort of close the door on that question before 11:56:3221 we do it. 11:56:3522 THE WITNESS: Fair enough. 11:56:3523 Q With that door now being closed, why 11:56:3624 don't you tell me at this point in time, early 11:56:3825 December 2011, what your vision or concept was 11:56:41


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1 for what NCAA would be doing with Freeh Group. 11:56:452 A So we talked earlier this morning about 11:56:493 the communications that I had with Penn State 11:56:514 and about the NCAA's coordination with and 11:56:555 cooperation with the Penn State University's 11:56:586 effort to respond to the questions and their 11:57:027 hiring of the Freeh Group to help them respond 11:57:058 to those questions. I shared with you earlier 11:57:089 today as well how we viewed a typical 11:57:10

10 arrangement to occur when an organization -- in 11:57:1511 my experience, any organization -- participates 11:57:1912 with or cooperates with an internal 11:57:2313 investigation. And I also shared with you what 11:57:2514 typically happens in an NCAA context with a 11:57:2915 member institution and examples of when 11:57:3316 individuals within the NCAA have worked with or 11:57:3517 shadowed the investigators in any type of 11:57:3918 investigation that involves one of its member 11:57:4319 institutions. 11:57:4520 And so as we thought about how we could 11:57:4621 best engage and be most efficient and be 11:57:5022 helpful, we took all of those things into 11:57:5523 consideration, all of the typical practices that 11:57:5924 occur when you have an external -- internal 11:58:0225 investigation being undertaken and thought 11:58:05

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1 MR. JOHNSON: For purposes of this 11:59:422 question, Matt, are you distinguishing Penn 11:59:433 State and the Freeh Group? 11:59:444 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yes. 11:59:465 Q You -- in your answer, which I 11:59:466 appreciate, you noted that one of the 11:59:497 considerations you had was what Penn State 11:59:538 thought you should be doing and another one was 11:59:589 what Freeh Group would allow you to do. I'd 12:00:00

10 like to start with what Penn State either told 12:00:0311 you you could do, couldn't do, if anything. 12:00:0612 A To the best of my recollection, the 12:00:1113 views weren't totally dissimilar and they were, 12:00:1414 we want to make sure that this investigation is 12:00:1815 conducted and concluded in a fashion that is 12:00:2116 clear that it's independent. 12:00:2517 And so anything that you guys do, any 12:00:2918 way that you engage, any communications that you 12:00:3219 have, that is paramount. And so as we talk 12:00:3520 about how the NCAA may monitor this 12:00:4121 investigation, may cooperate with the 12:00:4422 investigation, what was clear and unequivocal 12:00:4723 coming from Penn State, coming from the Freeh 12:00:5124 Group is independence, independence, 12:00:5425 independence. 12:00:57

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1 perhaps we would give briefings, perhaps we 11:58:082 would participate in interviews, perhaps we 11:58:113 would gather interview transcripts, perhaps we 11:58:154 would get realtime information, a whole panoply 11:58:195 of things that you would ordinarily consider 11:58:266 normal in the context of an investigation. And 11:58:287 so that's initially how we thought about 11:58:308 proceeding. But we couldn't proceed in any 11:58:359 fashion until we understood what Penn State 11:58:38

10 wanted us to do and we understood what the Freeh 11:58:4111 Group would allow us to do. 11:58:4312 And so in the conversations that we had 11:58:4513 with Penn State, we talked a little bit about 11:58:4814 what that structure might look like. And part 11:58:5115 of the reason for having a meeting with the 11:58:5416 Freeh Group was to further explore how we could 11:58:5617 be part of this process. 11:59:0018 And so when you ask what were we 11:59:0219 thinking about with respect to the Freeh Group's 11:59:0520 investigation in the early stages, we were 11:59:0921 thinking about a typical engagement with an 11:59:1122 independent internal investigation and how we 11:59:1523 would participate in that process. 11:59:1924 Q What do you recall early on Penn State's 11:59:2425 concept of what your involvement would be? 11:59:35

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1 Q Who was the speaker speaking on behalf 12:00:582 of Penn State? Was it Cynthia Baldwin? 12:01:013 A She would have been the only person that 12:01:044 I recall having a conversation with at that 12:01:055 time. 12:01:096 Q This is going be one of these documents 12:01:107 that I'm not going to show you unless you want 12:01:138 to see it. I'm just going to tell you what it 12:01:159 is. I'm looking at -- well, do you recall a 12:01:18

10 call with the Freeh Group on December 6, 2011? 12:01:2511 A Let's do it this way. You know, I had 12:01:3312 several calls with the Freeh Group. I had one 12:01:3613 in-person meeting with representatives of the 12:01:3914 Freeh Group and I had several calls with them 12:01:4315 from the time they commenced their investigation 12:01:4616 'til the time they concluded their 12:01:4717 investigation. I can't sit here and tell you 12:01:5018 what the dates of each of those calls are. So I 12:01:5319 hope you don't plan on asking me what happened 12:01:5520 on each call, because I'm not going to recall 12:01:5721 that. 12:01:5922 Q No, I don't. I don't. Which is why I'm 12:02:0023 not going to bother going through the exercise 12:02:0224 of putting all these little Outlook calendars in 12:02:0525 front of you. I accept your answer. 12:02:08


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1 Q By the way, if I told -- while Andrew is 12:02:172 pulling that document -- if I told you that 12:02:193 there was a meeting between you and 12:02:214 representatives of Freeh Group on December 7, 12:02:255 2011 in State College, does that sound about 12:02:286 right? 12:02:317 A I don't know about the date, but I take 12:02:328 your representation that that's the date I 12:02:359 recall in early December that I -- 12:02:38

10 Q Better make sure I'm right about that. 12:02:4011 Yes, yes. 12:02:4212 A We had a meeting at State College, yes. 12:02:4213 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 6 was marked 12:02:4614 for identification purposes.) 12:02:4615 Q I'm not asking -- I'm not going to ask 12:02:4916 you about the redacted portion. I am 12:03:0017 interested, however, in Ms. Baldwin's e-mail to 12:03:0318 you, which purports to attach a letter for your 12:03:0319 review and comment. Do you remember Cynthia 12:03:1420 Baldwin forwarding to you a draft response 12:03:1921 letter to Dr. Emmert's letter? 12:03:2322 A I do. 12:03:2723 Q Why did Cynthia Baldwin, if you know, 12:03:2824 forward her draft to you for your comment and 12:03:3225 review or review and comment? 12:03:37

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1 we're not stumbling over one another as we move 12:04:462 forward in this process. 12:04:503 Q If you know, did Cynthia Baldwin inform 12:04:524 anyone else at Penn State that she was 12:05:005 forwarding a draft of this letter to you for 12:05:036 your review? 12:05:067 A I would have no way of knowing that. 12:05:088 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 7 was marked 12:05:109 for identification purposes.) 12:05:10

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12:05:5411 Q Is this e-mail your response to 12:05:5712 Ms. Baldwin's forwarding to you the draft 12:06:0013 letter? 12:06:0214 A It appears to be one of the responses. 12:06:0315 It suggests that I would give her comments after 12:06:0416 the meeting with the Freeh Group. 12:06:0817 Q And this corresponds to my 12:06:1218 representation to you that there was, in fact, a 12:06:1319 meeting between you and Freeh Group folks on 12:06:1620 December 7th? 12:06:1921 A At some point in time in early December. 12:06:2122 I don't know if this is saying that the meeting 12:06:2423 is actually that day, but I don't think the 12:06:2524 date's -- 12:06:2725 MR. JOHNSON: It says "this afternoon." I 12:06:28

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1 A I presume to make sure that it 12:03:392 accurately reflected the conversations that we 12:03:403 previously had about how we were going to move 12:03:424 forward. 12:03:445 Q You had been having conversations with 12:03:456 her that were memorial -- that were discussing 12:03:467 how Penn State's response was going to look, was 12:03:498 going to be rolled out? 12:03:539 A Right. As we talked about earlier, 12:03:54

10 Dr. Emmert sent the letter on around 12:03:5611 November 17, and we were expecting a response to 12:03:5812 that letter in roughly 30 days. They hired the 12:04:0313 Freeh Group around the same time or a little 12:04:0714 after we sent the letter. And so we were 12:04:1015 engaged in conversations about how we were going 12:04:1216 to deal with the fact that they had now hired 12:04:1417 the Freeh Group to help them deal with the 12:04:1718 Sandusky indictment and all of the information 12:04:1919 surrounding that, including gathering data that 12:04:2420 would help them respond to our letter. 12:04:2521 So her letter was, back to us, this is 12:04:2822 what we've agreed upon to move forward in 12:04:3323 response to Dr. Emmert's letter to us, when are 12:04:3824 the responses going to be required, what's going 12:04:4225 to happen with the Freeh Group, how to make sure 12:04:44

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1 think that's what this is referring to. 12:06:292 THE WITNESS: Okay. Fair enough. 12:06:313 Q You write to Ms. Baldwin, "Specifically 12:06:364 as currently drafted, the letter seems to 12:06:385 suggest that the special counsel report itself 12:06:406 will serve as a response from the university. I 12:06:427 plan to discuss that issue with the special 12:06:478 counsel as I think it may be preferable for the 12:06:499 university to respond directly to the NCAA 12:06:51

10 questions once the special counsel work is 12:06:5411 done." 12:06:5612 Was that, in fact, your thinking at the 12:06:5913 time you wrote this e-mail that at that time you 12:07:0114 anticipated Penn State would respond formally to 12:07:1015 the four questions in Dr. Emmert's letter? 12:07:1316 A And I think we -- yes. We've said that 12:07:1717 a number of times here today. You know, this is 12:07:1918 consistent with the conversations that I had 12:07:2219 had. 12:07:2320 Q Did you discuss -- and special counsel, 12:07:2421 I assume, is the Freeh Group? 12:07:2722 A Correct. 12:07:2923 Q Do you recall discussing in -- and we'll 12:07:3124 get to the meeting in a minute -- but do you 12:07:3425 recall discussing with Freeh Group the text of 12:07:36


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1 Ms. Baldwin's response to Dr. Emmert's letter? 12:07:442 A Not specifically. I recall discussing 12:07:503 with the Freeh Group the engagement and what 12:07:534 would happen once their investigation was 12:07:575 complete and how the questions would be 12:08:006 responded to. 12:08:047 Q Let's stay on the December 7 meeting 12:08:168 with Freeh Group for the time being, just to do 12:08:219 this in rough chronological order. Who do you 12:08:25

10 recall attending that meeting? 12:08:2811 A Judge Sullivan, Omar McNeill. There may 12:08:3412 have been one or two other people from the Freeh 12:08:4013 Group there whose names escape me right now. 12:08:4214 Myself, Julie Roe Lach and -- and Jon Barrett. 12:08:4715 Q Do you recall whether a woman named 12:08:5616 Barbara Mather from the law firm of Pepper 12:08:5817 Hamilton was there? 12:09:0318 A That might be right. I don't remember 12:09:0419 the name. I know that there was -- there was 12:09:0620 someone else there and it was a woman. 12:09:0721 Q Why was Ms. Lach, Roe Lach, at the 12:09:0822 meeting with you? 12:09:1123 A To help explain how we would ordinarily 12:09:1324 go through an enforcement process and 12:09:1725 understand, provide information on some of the 12:09:20

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1 ordinarily think about these issues. These are 12:10:332 the issues that we've identified coming out of 12:10:363 the Sandusky indictment and here are the 12:10:404 questions that we've asked Penn State to answer. 12:10:425 Those types of things. It wasn't, you 12:10:456 know, we're on the ground, we're conducting an 12:10:477 investigation and this is what we're going to 12:10:498 do; no. 12:10:519 Q Why did you feel it necessary for 12:10:52

10 Ms. Lach to brief the Freeh Group personnel on 12:10:5411 enforcement issues? The answer you just gave. 12:11:0012 Why was she there to provide that information? 12:11:0413 A Yeah. I don't know that I necessarily 12:11:0614 said I thought it was necessary. But I do think 12:11:0815 it was helpful under those circumstances for the 12:11:1016 Freeh Group to have an understanding. And -- 12:11:1317 and, in fact, I think -- I'm not sure, but when 12:11:1618 I said there were other people there, I recall 12:11:2019 them saying that they had somebody on their team 12:11:2220 that had experience in NCAA compliance and that 12:11:2621 person would understand these issues as well. 12:11:3122 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, by "they," you mean 12:11:3323 the Freeh Group. 12:11:3524 THE WITNESS: The Freeh Group. 12:11:3725 So you had asked why I thought it was 12:11:38

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1 bylaws and some of the issues that we saw would 12:09:242 need to be explored or examined in order to 12:09:293 allow Penn State to answer the questions. 12:09:334 Q Fair to say that at this time a 12:09:355 possibility NCAA considered is that the Freeh 12:09:386 Report could lead to an enforcement action by 12:09:427 NCAA? 12:09:468 A I don't think that we were necessarily 12:09:489 that far along in our thinking, so I wouldn't 12:09:50

10 take your characterization of it. What I would 12:09:5411 say is there was always a possibility that an 12:09:5612 enforcement investigation could ensue. 12:09:5913 Q And that was why Ms. Roe Lach came to 12:10:0214 explain what the enforcement process would look 12:10:0415 like from NCAA's standpoint to inform Freeh 12:10:0716 Group? 12:10:0917 A No, I don't think so, not the way you've 12:10:1018 described it. But I think you're close. I 12:10:1219 think we're really close in terms of how we're 12:10:1520 describing this. Julie Roe Lach was there 12:10:1721 because she's our expert in our enforcement 12:10:2122 processes, yes. But the conversation wasn't 12:10:2323 about, this is how we'll go about conducting an 12:10:2624 enforcement investigation in Penn State. The 12:10:2825 conversation was more about, this is how we 12:10:31

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1 necessary to have Julie there to brief on 12:11:402 enforcement issues. And my response was, I 12:11:433 don't know that I necessarily thought it was 12:11:464 necessary to have her there. I thought it 12:11:485 was helpful. 12:11:506 Q You were the one who decided to bring 12:11:517 her. She wasn't told -- you weren't told to 12:11:538 bring her by somebody else? 12:11:559 A I don't know that I was the one who 12:11:56

10 decided to bring her, but, you know, I know that 12:11:5711 she and I talked about it. And it was logical 12:11:5812 for her to be there. 12:12:0113 Q Could she -- 12:12:0314 A She wouldn't -- she didn't report to me. 12:12:0415 I wasn't her boss. I couldn't say, Julie, you 12:12:0516 know, as part of your duties and 12:12:0817 responsibilities, you have to be there. 12:12:1018 Q I think I'm confused. Did she just 12:12:1119 organically end up at the meeting or was she 12:12:1420 asked to participate in the meeting? 12:12:1721 A No. I think that she was -- we talked 12:12:1922 about her participation in the meeting. I guess 12:12:2123 I was just -- I wanted to be clear and precise, 12:12:2324 that's all. You said, you know, you decided to 12:12:2525 bring her there as if I had some power over 12:12:27


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1 Julie to say you have to be here. I think it 12:12:312 was more of a, hey, how can we help? How can we 12:12:333 explain to the Freeh Group how this process 12:12:374 might move forward? How can we explain our 12:12:385 thoughts about that? How can we explain what we 12:12:426 traditionally do in the enforcement context? 12:12:447 And it made sense to have the expert there to 12:12:468 talk about that stuff. 12:12:489 Q Why did you want the Freeh Group to know 12:12:49

10 all that information or to have all of that 12:12:5211 information in December of 2011? 12:12:5412 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, just hold that 12:12:5813 question for a second. And make sure that your 12:13:0114 answer to this question is not revealing any 12:13:0215 attorney work product. I don't sense that it 12:13:0516 would, but I want you to think about that 12:13:0817 before you answer the question. 12:13:0918 THE WITNESS: Fair enough. Again, going 12:13:1119 back to your question, at the time, after 12:13:1620 November 17, when the letter was sent from 12:13:2221 Dr. Emmert to President Erickson, there were 12:13:2622 unanswered questions that the NCAA needed to 12:13:2923 further explore what its next steps might be. 12:13:3424 At the time that Penn State Board of 12:13:3725 Trustees retained Louis Freeh to conduct an 12:13:40

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1 that meeting and talk about those issues. 12:14:502 Q Penn State desired that NCAA informed 12:14:523 Freeh Group of, for instance, the enforcement 12:14:564 process so Freeh Group had a better 12:14:595 understanding of your process? 12:15:016 A I can't say that Penn State 12:15:037 specifically asked us to do that. What I can 12:15:058 say is what I've said already, which is we had 12:15:089 these conversations around how to move forward 12:15:12

10 and what's next. And so the product of those 12:15:1511 conversations was us meeting with the Freeh 12:15:1912 Group to talk about how to move forward and 12:15:2013 what's next. 12:15:2214 Q Do you recall at that meeting whether 12:15:2515 anyone from the Freeh Group articulated that one 12:15:2716 of the tracks of the Freeh Group investigation 12:15:3017 was to assess whether there had been NCAA bylaw 12:15:3418 violations? 12:15:3819 A Not in that way. Not with any 12:15:4320 specificity. I recall, and I mentioned this to 12:15:4521 you a little earlier, that they said they had 12:15:4722 somebody who had some expertise in NCAA 12:15:5123 compliance as part of their team. And so they 12:15:5424 were able to understand the NCAA parlance and 12:15:5725 they had one of their team members that would be 12:16:02

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1 investigation, those questions remained 12:13:452 unanswered by Penn State. Penn State had 12:13:473 indicated through this process of the special 12:13:514 counsel they would be better able to 12:13:525 understand the nuances of the questions, and 12:13:556 that the Freeh Group would be able to gather 12:13:577 data, and at the end of the day, assist them 12:13:598 in responding to the questions. 12:14:029 Now, was there a discussion about 12:14:05

10 whether or not the Freeh Group would answer 12:14:0711 the questions or not? That was part of the 12:14:0812 conversation, but I think collectively 12:14:1013 everyone recognized it was Penn State's 12:14:1314 obligation to provide answers to these 12:14:1615 questions once this investigation was 12:14:1916 complete. 12:14:2217 So in order to assist with the 12:14:2418 investigators' examination of all the issues 12:14:2619 that they had, but specifically to assist 12:14:2920 Penn State and the NCAA and the investigators 12:14:3321 to make sure that Penn State had the data at 12:14:3522 the end of their investigation to respond to 12:14:3823 the questions, we had one, a meeting with 12:14:4024 them, and two, the expert in the area that 12:14:4425 usually explores these issues participate in 12:14:47

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1 focused on making sure they stayed on track in 12:16:042 that area. 12:16:073 They may have talked about the different 12:16:084 tracks or tranches. I don't remember that word. 12:16:105 But their overall investigation, if you recall, 12:16:136 they were asked by the Penn State Board of 12:16:177 Trustees to conduct an investigation into 12:16:208 everything that was in the Sandusky indictment, 12:16:229 so they had a broad mandate from the Penn State 12:16:23

10 Board of Trustees to go forward and conduct an 12:16:2711 investigation. It wasn't exclusively or 12:16:3112 primarily about intercollegiate athletics or how 12:16:3313 this incident played into intercollegiate 12:16:3814 athletics. It was much broader than that. So I 12:16:4215 do remember them saying, look, we have somebody 12:16:4416 that has expertise in this area that will help 12:16:4617 us understand these rules. 12:16:4918 Q Did you have an understanding at this 12:16:5019 meeting or after this meeting that one of Freeh 12:16:5420 Group's responsibilities in the investigation or 12:16:5921 one of Freeh Group's tasks in the investigation 12:17:0322 was to assess whether there were potential NCAA 12:17:0623 rules or bylaws violations? 12:17:1024 A I don't recall that and I don't believe 12:17:1525 that that's what they were tasked to do. I 12:17:17


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1 don't believe that they were tasked to go out 12:17:212 and evaluate behavior against NCAA bylaws. I 12:17:233 think that they were going to leave that to the 12:17:294 university to do. They were tasked to go out 12:17:315 and gather facts and information based upon all 12:17:346 the allegations in the indictment and present 12:17:367 that information back to the Penn State Board of 12:17:388 Trustees. 12:17:429 Q So if someone had said that from Freeh 12:17:43

10 Group at that meeting, it would be your 12:17:4511 understanding that that wasn't what Freeh Group 12:17:4812 was tasked with doing? 12:17:5013 A Well, I'll be honest. I've never seen 12:17:5214 their charter, right? You asked me what was my 12:17:5415 understanding of that charge and my 12:17:5816 understanding of the charge was surely they 12:18:0117 would gather data and information that would be 12:18:0318 helpful and useful in evaluating whether or not 12:18:0519 there were any NCAA violations, using your 12:18:0920 phraseology, because that was part of the 12:18:1121 question set that had been placed before Penn 12:18:1422 State by the letter between Dr. Emmert and 12:18:1923 Dr. Erickson. 12:18:2324 Q In other words, the four questions in 12:18:2525 the letter and the answers to those four 12:18:28

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1 system or not, right. 12:19:482 And so I wouldn't say it the way you 12:19:513 said it in terms of was the letter designed to 12:19:534 have Penn State find NCAA violations. It was 12:19:555 designed to gather data and information to help 12:19:586 us evaluate how that behavior compared against 12:20:007 the values, the bylaws, the prescriptions, that 12:20:048 all of our members have agreed to abide by. And 12:20:089 the best source of that, we believed at the time 12:20:12

10 we sent the letter, would be Penn State. 12:20:1411 Q At the meeting, did you and Freeh Group 12:20:1712 agree on how the Freeh investigation would be 12:20:2013 conducted with respect to your participation? 12:20:2314 You, being NCAA. 12:20:2615 A No. I wouldn't use "agree" as a word in 12:20:2816 that context at all. 12:20:3117 Q You explain. 12:20:3318 A You know, we had ideas and -- and, Matt, 12:20:3419 I don't want to go through this all over again, 12:20:3820 because it will burn your time and mine. 12:20:4021 And we went there with ideas. And they 12:20:4222 said, "This is how it's going to go." Right? 12:20:4523 You know, we are retained by the Penn State 12:20:4724 Board of Trustees to conduct an independent 12:20:5325 confidential investigation of the matters in the 12:20:57

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1 questions were designed to get at whether there 12:18:312 were any issues at Penn State that would amount 12:18:333 to NCAA bylaw or regulation violations? 12:18:364 A They were designed to help us understand 12:18:405 the underlying data. Think about it this way. 12:18:426 Penn State is a member institution of a 12:18:467 voluntary membership association. 12:18:488 And so, you know -- and the way to 12:18:529 answer this I think is to just help you 12:18:56

10 understand it, not revealing to you any 12:18:5811 privileged communications -- 12:19:0012 Q I don't want that. 12:19:0113 A -- or work product. You know, as a 12:19:0114 member institution, Penn State has agreed with 12:19:0515 all of the terms of our constitution and our 12:19:1016 bylaws, which, by the way, are passed by the 12:19:1317 membership. This is not a national office 12:19:1518 thing. The membership gets together and says, 12:19:1819 this is how we'd like to govern ourselves. And 12:19:2020 so in looking at the behavior that was described 12:19:2221 in the Sandusky indictment and the values that 12:19:2622 exist in the NCAA constitution, which all of its 12:19:3223 members have agreed to embrace, we set out to 12:19:3524 try to provide some questions to help us all 12:19:4125 understand how these actions fit within that 12:19:44

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1 Sandusky report. And that's what we intend on 12:21:002 doing. 12:21:043 So whatever ideas we may have had about 12:21:064 how that relationship would unfold, at this time 12:21:085 and thereafter, it was made clear to us, "No, 12:21:136 we -- we've agreed that you can monitor our 12:21:157 investigation, receive updates from time to 12:21:208 time. We've agreed with our client, the 12:21:239 Penn State Board of Trustees, that that's 12:21:27

10 appropriate," in the same way it's appropriate 12:21:2811 for those who were conducting parallel 12:21:3012 investigations under the Clery Act, the criminal 12:21:3313 justice system, but "We, the Freeh Group, are 12:21:3714 conducting an independent investigation here, 12:21:3915 and we will not engage in any behavior that 12:21:4216 appears to in any way impair the independence of 12:21:4617 the investigation." 12:21:5118 That's the message that I took away. 12:21:5219 That's the message that was delivered at that 12:21:5320 meeting, and subsequent to that meeting, about 12:21:5721 how we would engage. 12:21:5922 Now, with that message, the point was, 12:22:0123 how do we engage, moving forward? What is 12:22:0324 constructive? What might be helpful to us and 12:22:0825 not in any way interfere with the independence 12:22:13


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1 of the investigation? 12:22:162 So there was no agreement in that 12:22:183 context. There was an understanding about how 12:22:204 we are going to move forward. We talked a 12:22:235 little bit about things we thought we could do 12:22:256 to help. And they said, you know, "These are 12:22:277 some things that maybe you can do to help," but 12:22:308 that's about the extent of it. 12:22:329 Q What did they say you could do to help? 12:22:34

10 A You know, to the point I made before, 12:22:3611 help them by providing them with educational 12:22:3812 information that would be useful as they 12:22:4013 gathered data, facts to assist Penn State 12:22:4314 ultimately in answering the questions. 12:22:4815 Q What sort of educational information? 12:22:4916 A Around the issues that were laid out in 12:22:5117 that letter. So if you pull the letter up -- 12:22:5418 and I don't remember it specifically, off the 12:22:5619 top of my head -- there were constitutional 12:22:5820 provisions cited. There were bylaws cited. 12:23:0021 There was -- there was issues around the ethical 12:23:0322 conduct of athletics personnel. There were 12:23:0923 issues around the concepts of institutional 12:23:1324 control. 12:23:1625 And so, you know, we said, "Okay. We 12:23:16

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1 Sharing of documents? 12:24:342 A We gave them educational information. 12:24:383 They never shared any documents with us, that I 12:24:404 recall of. 12:24:425 Q Did they ever give you the substance of 12:24:436 any documents, even if they didn't show you the 12:24:447 documents themselves? 12:24:478 A Not that I recall. 12:24:489 Q Did they ever give you, to your 12:24:50

10 recollection, summaries of interviews? 12:24:5311 A No. No. 12:24:5612 Q No interview notes? 12:24:5813 A No. 12:24:5914 Q How about during status updates? Any 12:25:0415 type of preliminary results? 12:25:0916 A No. 12:25:1217 Q Were the discussions, in what we'll soon 12:25:1318 talk about are the weekly phone calls, about 12:25:1819 Freeh Group's assessment of potential NCAA 12:25:2520 violations? 12:25:2921 A Not that I recall, no. 12:25:2922 Q Assessments of Freeh Group's opinion on 12:25:3223 whether there was a lack of institutional 12:25:3424 control at Penn State? 12:25:3525 A No. I mean, let me do it this way. 12:25:37

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1 can provide you data and information to 12:23:202 understand how we traditionally examine those 12:23:223 types of issues." 12:23:254 Q Freeh Group, as best as you recall, 12:23:295 solicited from you your assistance -- your, 12:23:326 NCAA's assistance -- in educating Freeh Group on 12:23:347 NCAA bylaws issues? 12:23:398 A I don't recall whose idea it was. I 12:23:429 don't recall if it was our idea, if it was their 12:23:44

10 idea, if it was part of our original thought 12:23:4611 process about how we would engage. 12:23:4912 But the Freeh Group said, "Okay. We can 12:23:5213 receive that information that might be helpful 12:23:5514 to us." 12:23:5715 Q Was the idea of NCAA participation in 12:23:5916 witness interviews -- shadowing, as you call 12:24:0417 it -- rejected? 12:24:0718 A It did not happen. 12:24:0919 Q Did any of the elements that you have 12:24:1320 described as typical, in your internal 12:24:1721 investigative process in which NCAA 12:24:2122 participates, get folded into the interaction 12:24:2323 between Freeh Group and NCAA? 12:24:2724 A Status updates. 12:24:3125 Q We'll talk about those. 12:24:32

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1 The -- the status updates -- which, by the way, 12:25:412 did not occur weekly -- oftentimes were 12:25:423 canceled. You know how these things go. This 12:25:454 is -- when there was information to report on 12:25:485 the status, it was reported on. Usually didn't 12:25:506 last more than five or ten minutes. And they 12:25:547 were usually simply about, these are the folks 12:25:568 that we interviewed, these are the general areas 12:26:009 that we're going down now, these are the folks 12:26:03

10 that we plan to interview in the future. That's 12:26:0611 about it. 12:26:1012 Q Was that information given to you -- and 12:26:1113 John Barrett participated in these calls too, 12:26:1214 right? 12:26:1515 A He did. 12:26:1616 Q Was there anybody else, outside of you, 12:26:1617 Omar McNeill, and John Barrett, who participated 12:26:1918 in these calls? 12:26:2119 A Not that I recall. 12:26:2220 Q Was the information that Freeh Group 12:26:2421 provided to you for purpose of -- was it a 12:26:2622 one-way street, in other words? Did they tell 12:26:2923 you, "This is what we're doing"? Or did they 12:26:3124 tell you what they were doing and solicit from 12:26:3325 you, "What are your opinions on what we should 12:26:35


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1 do next?" 12:26:382 A I don't recall any solicitation of 12:26:383 opinion or direction. I mean, at the very 12:26:404 beginning -- again, we talked a little bit about 12:26:435 this -- we provided them with what, I believe, 12:26:456 was useful educational information, questions 12:26:487 that are generally used in this context, 12:26:528 potential people that they might want to 12:26:559 interview, search terms, those kind of things. 12:26:57

10 I don't know what they did with them, 12:27:0011 whether they used them, whether they didn't use 12:27:0112 them, whether they threw them in the trash can. 12:27:0413 But on the status calls, it was more, 12:27:0614 "These are the witnesses that we interviewed 12:27:0815 this week. These are the witnesses that we 12:27:1016 might interview in the next week. This is how 12:27:1217 far long we are in our investigation," those 12:27:1418 types of things. 12:27:1619 Q Before we move on, at some point there 12:27:1820 was a -- let me take you back to Cynthia 12:27:2321 Baldwin's -- or Penn State's response to 12:27:2722 Dr. Emmert's letter. 12:27:3123 That was ultimately okayed by you and 12:27:3224 sent back to NCAA? 12:27:3625 A I don't -- I wouldn't characterize it -- 12:27:39

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1 be able to get through this and shoot for 1:00. 12:28:422 A Thank you. 12:28:543 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 8 was marked 12:28:564 for identification purposes.) 12:28:565 MR. JOHNSON: Exhibit 8? 12:29:036 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12:29:207 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:29:208 Q Why did you provide a draft response to 12:29:219 Penn State's response letter, to Omar McNeill? 12:29:27

10 A The same reasons. To make sure it 12:29:3411 accurately reflected the direction we were going 12:29:3612 in, based upon the conversations that we had. 12:29:3913 Q But why was it necessary for Freeh Group 12:29:4214 to opine or give edits on a letter that was 12:29:4615 coming from NCAA, reflecting NCAA policy? 12:29:5016 A I wouldn't characterize this letter as 12:29:5417 reflecting NCAA policy. Again, you know, you 12:29:5518 and I might use different words to describe 12:29:5719 different things. 12:30:0020 This is a letter back to Penn State, 12:30:0221 reflecting our pledge to continue to work with 12:30:0422 Penn State and with the Freeh Group during the 12:30:0923 ongoing investigation. 12:30:1324 And the reason to ask Omar for any 12:30:1525 comments on this was the same reason I suspect 12:30:18

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1 I wouldn't characterize it as being okayed by 12:27:402 me. 12:27:433 Q I just want your opinion. 12:27:434 A You know, her -- her offer was, does 12:27:445 this -- to my way of thinking, does this reflect 12:27:466 what our conversation was and how we're going to 12:27:497 move forward, you know. "I have one little area 12:27:518 that I think you need to be more clear about." 12:27:549 And ultimately she did send a letter back. 12:27:56

10 Q And that area of clarity is the one we 12:28:0011 identified before, the issue of whether 12:28:0312 Freeh Group's report could be a sufficient 12:28:0813 response to the four questions? 12:28:1114 A Yes. Whether the Freeh Group's report 12:28:1415 would serve as Penn State's response or whether 12:28:1716 Penn State would provide a response thereafter. 12:28:1917 Q Okay. 12:28:2118 MR. JOHNSON: Matt, when it's convenient 12:28:2219 for you topically, why don't we break for 12:28:2820 lunch. No hurry. Just whenever it's good for 12:28:3221 you guys. 12:28:3322 THE WITNESS: I'm good. 12:28:3323 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:28:3424 Q We might be able to -- we're moving 12:28:3625 along at a faster clip than I thought, so I may 12:28:38

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1 Ms. Baldwin asked me for comments, to make sure 12:30:202 that it appropriately reflected how we had 12:30:233 talked about moving forward. 12:30:264 Q And did it? 12:30:285 A I think he may have made an edit. 12:30:316 Q Are there any other communications 12:30:427 that -- among or between NCAA and Freeh Group 12:30:448 that were forwarded to -- I'm sorry. 12:30:529 Were there any other communications 12:30:57

10 between NCAA and Penn State that were forwarded 12:30:5811 to Freeh Group for comment and review, similar 12:31:0412 to this one? 12:31:0613 MR. JOHNSON: By the NCAA? 12:31:0814 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:31:0915 Q By the NCAA. 12:31:0916 To your -- if you know. 12:31:1017 A As I said, this went back and forth. 12:31:1618 And I think he added the word "confidentiality" 12:31:1919 to a sentence, but -- so there's another 12:31:2420 communication, but it reflects this language. 12:31:2621 And beyond that -- I mean, if you're 12:31:3222 asking were there other letters or other things 12:31:3323 that -- drafts that people were asked to comment 12:31:3624 on, I just don't recall. 12:31:3825


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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:31:422 Q And that was what I was asking. 12:31:423 A Okay. 12:31:444 Q In fairness to you, I'll put -- I wasn't 12:31:445 going to, but I'll put in front of you the next 12:31:466 one in the chain. 12:31:497 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 9 was marked 12:31:528 for identification purposes.) 12:31:529 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12:32:34

10 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:32:3411 Q Is this the -- does it reflect the edits 12:32:3512 that you recall Omar McNeill adding in? 12:32:3813 A Yeah. There are more than I recall, I 12:32:4114 guess, comparing the two documents. But, 12:32:4315 generally, yes, it reflects what I was told. 12:32:4816 Q Do you recall -- do you recall why 12:32:5117 Omar McNeill added to the language "and 12:32:5318 Judge Freeh"? And I'm looking at maybe the 12:32:5819 penultimate sentence. 12:33:0120 A I don't think so. He just substituted 12:33:0621 Penn State's Special Investigative Council with 12:33:0822 Judge Freeh. 12:33:1123 Q All right. You don't know? 12:33:1224 A Yeah. He used the name instead of a 12:33:1425 title. 12:33:16

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1 you want. 12:34:362 But I -- really I'm -- the purpose of me 12:34:383 referencing it is to jog your memory whether 12:34:424 this is the first of the so-called weekly 12:34:455 updates. 12:34:496 A Christmas Eve, you said? 12:34:517 Q The 23rd. Close. 12:34:538 A I can't even tell you whether or not 12:34:569 that actual call occurred. So I don't know when 12:34:57

10 the first ones began. Nor do I know when the 12:35:0111 last one occurred. I just know from time to 12:35:0512 time, we had the calls. 12:35:0613 Q Did they have -- did the weekly calls 12:35:0814 between you and Mr. Barrett and Mr. McNeill 12:35:1015 start after the December 7 meeting? 12:35:1316 A Again, I'm not sure of the date of the 12:35:1817 meeting, but they started after the meeting at 12:35:2018 State College. And, again, they weren't weekly, 12:35:2319 although they may have been scheduled so that we 12:35:2520 would have a block of time available. I can 12:35:2721 tell you here we didn't have them every week or 12:35:3022 even anything close to that. 12:35:3223 Q It's your testimony that these calls 12:35:3524 lasted, typically, five to ten minutes? 12:35:3725 A So -- as a general matter, five, ten 12:35:40

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1 Q Do you know if Ms. Baldwin was aware 12:33:172 that your response to her was being sent to 12:33:223 NCAA -- or sent to Freeh Group rather -- for 12:33:274 comment and review? 12:33:305 A I -- I don't know whether she knew or 12:33:326 not. 12:33:347 MR. JOHNSON: Are you asking him about the 12:33:368 top line of this? 12:33:379 MR. HAVERSTICK: No. 12:33:39

10 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:33:3911 Q Just, in general, whether the discourse 12:33:4012 between Omar McNeill and Mr. Remy on this 12:33:4313 response was known to Cynthia Baldwin. 12:33:4714 A The Freeh Group -- Omar may have told 12:33:5215 her. 12:33:5416 Q You don't know? 12:33:5517 A It doesn't strike me as unusual. Again, 12:33:5718 it goes back to trying to make sure that it 12:33:5819 accurately reflects our discussions. 12:34:0020 Q Okay. For sake of convenience, I'm 12:34:0921 going to tell you that I'm looking at a document 12:34:1622 that is an Outlook invite called "PSU Weekly 12:34:1823 Update Conference Call, Start 12/23/2001." And 12:34:2524 then it has a recurrence -- a weekly recurrence 12:34:2825 and a call-in number. I can show it to you, if 12:34:33

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1 minutes. 12:35:432 Q Do you recall any lasting longer than 12:35:433 that? 12:35:454 A I don't have a specific recollection, 12:35:485 but I would say the early calls probably lasted 12:35:506 longer, as we were trying to figure out how we 12:35:547 were going to structure the calls, or something 12:35:578 like that. 12:35:599 Q Well, tell me about the early calls. 12:35:59

10 What were you discussing in those if they were 12:36:0111 longer? 12:36:0212 A Same thing. Same thing. The only 12:36:0313 reason I said they may have lasted longer is 12:36:0414 because that's when, you know, Omar was saying, 12:36:0615 "Okay. This is how we're going to do these 12:36:0816 calls. These are the things we're looking at. 12:36:1117 This is how long we plan on taking. This is 12:36:1318 our -- our process." 12:36:1619 So, you know, I just wanted to offer to 12:36:1820 you that there may be a time when some of the 12:36:2021 calls in the early days lasted a little longer 12:36:2322 so we could get the process in place. 12:36:2523 Q Tell me what McNeill was describing to 12:36:2724 you early on as the process. 12:36:3025 A Simply what I have said a couple times 12:36:33


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1 here today, that, you know, we can talk about 12:36:352 who we're going to interview, who our interviews 12:36:393 are coming up in the future, who we have 12:36:434 interviewed, the progress of the investigation, 12:36:455 how much longer we think we're going to be 12:36:496 working on this area, that area, when we might 12:36:507 move to a different area. 12:36:538 And I can't even tell you, because I 12:36:549 don't remember what the areas were, other than, 12:36:56

10 you know, they had a broad mandate and they were 12:36:5911 looking at a variety of things across the 12:37:0212 Penn State University campus as it related to 12:37:0613 what was in the Sandusky indictment. 12:37:0814 Q Do you recall Mr. McNeill, separate and 12:37:1015 apart from -- from the sitdown you had, 12:37:1316 discussing that Freeh Group was investigating 12:37:1517 potential NCAA bylaws or infractions issues? 12:37:1918 A Outside of what was in the Sandusky 12:37:2419 report? 12:37:2720 Q At all. 12:37:2721 A I mean, the Sandusky indictment? No. I 12:37:2822 mean, we talked about the Sandusky indictment 12:37:3023 earlier. 12:37:3224 Q Yeah. 12:37:3225 A And I think I responded to you no, I 12:37:32

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1 that? 12:38:242 THE WITNESS: I think I do. This colloquy 12:38:273 kind of threw me off. 12:38:294 If I understand your question correctly, 12:38:315 do I recall the Freeh Group on -- or McNeill, 12:38:336 in particular, because that's who I was 12:38:377 talking to -- on any of the calls to talk 12:38:378 about investigating NCAA bylaw violations. 12:38:409 Is that -- is that generally what you're 12:38:45

10 asking? 12:38:4711 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:38:4712 Q Generally. I mean, don't -- don't hold 12:38:4813 me to investigating but -- 12:38:4814 A Or looking into or trying to ascertain 12:38:5115 or evaluating whether or not there had been an 12:38:5316 NCAA violation. 12:38:5717 I don't recall that that was the subject 12:38:5918 of any of these calls, nor do I recall that 12:39:0119 that's what they were doing as they moved 12:39:0420 forward in their investigation. 12:39:0621 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 10 was marked 12:39:1522 for identification purposes.) 12:39:1523 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:39:1524 Q Let me show you a document that we 12:39:1725 marked as 10. 12:39:19

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1 don't think that they were conducting an 12:37:342 investigation to determine whether there were 12:37:373 bylaw violations. 12:37:384 Q And -- and to be clear, I'm not talking 12:37:405 about just any old bylaw violation. 12:37:436 A Okay. 12:37:467 Q I'm talking about anything specifically 12:37:478 relating to the Sandusky matter. 12:37:499 MR. JOHNSON: I've lost the question. 12:37:51

10 MR. HAVERSTICK: I think Mr. Remy 12:37:5611 interpreted my question as asking whether there 12:37:5712 were discussions about NCAA or Freeh Group 12:38:0013 investigating just any potential bylaw 12:38:0314 violation, rather than ones confined to the 12:38:0615 facts of the Sandusky investigation. And I 12:38:0916 didn't mean a universe of all kinds of 12:38:1117 infractions. I only meant one that's related 12:38:1318 to the Sandusky matter. 12:38:1519 MR. JOHNSON: You're asking him whether 12:38:1620 the Freeh Group -- he recalls the Freeh Group 12:38:1721 ever communicating to him that that is what 12:38:1922 they were doing? 12:38:2123 MR. HAVERSTICK: Correct. After the -- 12:38:2224 after the December 7 meeting. 12:38:2225 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Do you understand 12:38:23

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1 A Okay. 12:39:392 Q Now, there's-- I represent to you that 12:39:403 there's an attachment apparently with this 12:39:434 e-mail that we're about to put in front of you 12:39:465 that we believe is the correct attachment. I'm 12:39:486 going to ask you to take a look at it. 12:39:517 But while that gets marked, this e-mail 12:39:538 reads, "In any event, I have attached a list of 12:39:559 draft questions as discussed." 12:39:58

10 What discussions do you recall with 12:40:0411 Omar McNeill regarding draft questions submitted 12:40:0612 to him by NCAA? 12:40:1013 A Yeah. Again, my recollection was that 12:40:1414 we had some discussion at the meeting that we 12:40:1815 talked about already, at Penn State, around how 12:40:2116 we could be helpful and them gathering 12:40:2617 information that might be associated with the 12:40:3018 questions that the NCAA had put forward. So I 12:40:3319 don't know if it was at that meeting or on a 12:40:3720 subsequent call or both that we talked about, 12:40:3921 "We'll give you some questions. We'll give you 12:40:4322 some search terms. We'll give you maybe a list 12:40:4623 of witnesses, or something like that, just 12:40:5124 information that we think might be helpful to 12:40:5325 you." 12:40:55


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1 Q I'm going to show you 11, which purports 12:40:562 to be list of questions. And then we can ask a 12:40:593 couple more questions about these two documents 12:41:044 together. 12:41:065 A Are you going to ask about specific 12:41:066 questions? Because I can read the whole 12:41:147 document or I can just... 12:41:168 Q I don't know that I am. 12:41:189 A Okay. 12:41:19

10 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 11 was marked 12:41:1911 for identification purposes.) 12:41:1912 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:41:1913 Q But if I do, we'll, you know, take as 12:41:2014 much time as you want. 12:41:2215 A Okay. 12:41:2316 Q Does that look like the list of 12:41:2417 questions that would have accompanied this 12:41:2518 e-mail? 12:41:2719 A It does. 12:41:2820 Q Do you remember it actually being the 12:41:2821 list of questions? 12:41:2922 A You asked a better question the first 12:41:3123 time. I mean, it does look like the list of 12:41:3324 questions. I can't say that with absolute 12:41:3525 certainty. But you can represent to me that 12:41:37

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1 information that might be most useful to them. 12:42:292 Q Presumably, you would have been the 12:42:313 person in NCAA who would have solicited help 12:42:324 from others in NCAA in drafting these questions, 12:42:365 right? 12:42:386 A Yeah. And -- but your -- your 12:42:397 question -- your questions supposes or suggested 12:42:438 that I drafted the questions. And I don't 12:42:489 recall that specifically. 12:42:50

10 But what I will say is that, you know, 12:42:5211 my role, in gathering the questions, would have 12:42:5312 been to solicit information from others in order 12:42:5913 to put together some information that would be 12:43:0114 useful to Omar. 12:43:0415 Q Actually, I think I may be asking just 12:43:0516 the opposite. 12:43:0717 A Okay. 12:43:1018 Q I presume that others assisted you in 12:43:1019 drafting the questions in whole or at least in 12:43:1320 part. 12:43:1621 MR. JOHNSON: I think the disconnect is 12:43:1822 he's saying he's not sure he drafted the 12:43:1923 question. 12:43:2224 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:43:2225 Q Somebody drafted the questions at NCAA? 12:43:23

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1 this is what the NCAA produced, or somebody 12:41:392 produced, that reflects the attachment to the 12:41:413 e-mail -- 12:41:434 Q I can represent -- 12:41:445 A -- I will say yes. 12:41:446 Q I can represent to you that document is 12:41:457 in the production from NCAA. I don't think it's 12:41:478 associated directly with -- with that -- 12:41:499 MR. HAVERSTICK: I mean, Brian, we could 12:41:54

10 never -- we couldn't tell. 12:41:5511 MR. KOWALSKI: It's a family member of the 12:41:5612 attachment to the e-mail you just showed. 12:41:5813 MR. HAVERSTICK: All right. So -- 12:42:0014 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12:42:0015 MR. HAVERSTICK: All right. 12:42:0016 THE WITNESS: Then, yes. 12:42:0117 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:42:0118 Q Okay. Who drafted those, if you know? 12:42:0219 A You know, there may have been a group of 12:42:0520 people. I don't know. But I do believe that -- 12:42:0821 for sure. Let me say it that way. I don't know 12:42:1222 for sure, but I have some recollection of 12:42:1523 working on these, maybe with the enforcement 12:42:1824 staff, in terms of how do -- you know, how do we 12:42:2225 think about -- how can we help them gather 12:42:26

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1 A Correct. I mean, I believe so. I don't 12:43:252 believe they were drafted by outside counsel, 12:43:283 because if they were, we would be having a 12:43:304 different conversation. 12:43:335 Q If you hadn't drafted them, you would 12:43:356 have had to ask someone else in NCAA to draft 12:43:387 them for you? 12:43:408 A I would have. And I just don't recall 12:43:419 who that might have been. It might have been 12:43:43

10 people in the enforcement staff. It might have 12:43:4611 been people in the legal staff. I just don't 12:43:4912 have a clear recollection of how these questions 12:43:5413 came to be. I know the purpose that they were 12:43:5614 designed for, but I don't have a clear 12:43:5915 recollection of how they came to be. And I 12:44:0116 certainly don't have a recollection of me 12:44:0217 writing them. 12:44:0518 Q Do you recall whether Julie Roe Lach was 12:44:0719 involved in generating these questions? I'm 12:44:1120 going to use that word instead of "write," 12:44:1321 because we -- 12:44:1522 A And I'm not trying to be technical and 12:44:1623 use the word "write" or not write. I'm just -- 12:44:1824 I don't have a clear recollection of how the 12:44:2025 questions came to be. And so what I'm trying to 12:44:22


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1 offer to you is some help to understand the 12:44:252 genesis. 12:44:273 And the genesis, in my mind, is that the 12:44:294 questions would have derived from communications 12:44:315 with the enforcement staff. Whether 12:44:376 Julie Roe Lach was the person who drafted them 12:44:397 or whether somebody in her staff helped draft 12:44:428 them, I don't recall and, actually, don't 12:44:449 believe it was somebody in the legal office, but 12:44:49

10 they may have been involved as well. 12:44:5111 Q Do you -- do you recall whether you 12:45:0512 anticipated that NCAA would -- do you recall 12:45:0713 whether you anticipated that Freeh Group would, 12:45:1214 in fact, ask these questions of witnesses and 12:45:1415 get answers to these questions from witnesses? 12:45:1716 A I don't recall that. I kind of doubt 12:45:2217 it. You know, they were free to use the 12:45:2318 questions or not use them, to gather answers or 12:45:2819 not gather answers. I just -- I mean, these 12:45:3120 were designed, in my mind, to be helpful to them 12:45:3521 in gathering data and information that would be 12:45:3822 useful to answering the NCAA's November 17 12:45:4023 letter. 12:45:4424 Q So the top -- and then this may be a 12:45:4625 question, now that I'm thinking about it, that 12:45:48

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1 the four at the top. 12:47:182 Is that where you were going with that 12:47:203 question or no? 12:47:224 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:47:235 Q Yeah, that actually, I think, answers 12:47:256 the question. 12:47:277 My question was really a "why these 12:47:288 particular questions?" 12:47:309 A I don't have a recollection of drafting. 12:47:33

10 But as I sit here today and look through these 12:47:3511 questions, they do look like rational questions 12:47:3712 that one might consider if trying to answer the 12:47:3913 four questions at the top. 12:47:4414 Q I'm going to give you a memory quiz. 12:47:4515 From your recall of the Freeh Report, do you 12:47:5116 believe these questions were addressed? 12:47:5717 MR. JOHNSON: So I'm just going to object 12:48:0118 as to the vagueness. 12:48:0219 You're probably asking whether the Freeh 12:48:0320 Report provides specific answers to these 12:48:0421 questions. 12:48:0722 MR. HAVERSTICK: Or general ones. I 12:48:0823 understand it's tough to say the Freeh Report 12:48:1024 answers every single one of these questions. 12:48:1125 THE WITNESS: My recollection of the Freeh 12:48:14

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1 you would want to look at the letter for. 12:45:502 The topic matters in this letter and the 12:45:543 specific questions are ones that, from NCAA's 12:45:594 perspective, you thought answering would be 12:46:035 helpful to Penn State in answering the four 12:46:076 questions? 12:46:097 MR. JOHNSON: Let me just have that read 12:46:118 back. 12:46:129 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 12:46:13

10 record was read back by the court reporter.) 12:46:1311 THE WITNESS: Do you want to try to 12:46:3412 rephrase that? Because I -- I actually don't 12:46:3513 get it this time. I usually get exactly where 12:46:4014 you're going. I'm not getting it this time. 12:46:4315 I can look at these and tell you that 12:46:4616 the first four buckets appear to be the 12:46:4817 language that was used in the letter from the 12:46:5318 NCAA to Penn State. That's -- as I look at 12:46:5619 this, that's there. 12:46:5920 I can look at the top line, and it says 12:47:0021 questions -- "Proposed questions associated 12:47:0322 with issues raised by the NCAA." 12:47:0423 And then, as it goes through, they 12:47:0724 appear to be additional questions that might 12:47:1025 be helpful in gathering information to answer 12:47:14

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1 Report -- and it was a pretty long document, a 12:48:162 couple of -- 300 pages or so, with a lot of 12:48:183 exhibits and attachments and 430 witness 12:48:224 interviews and 3.8 million pieces of data, if I 12:48:265 recall correctly, or 3.5. It was a lot of 12:48:306 information. 12:48:327 My recollection was that it provided 12:48:338 data that would be useful to the university 12:48:359 in examining how they could respond to these 12:48:37

10 questions. I don't recall anything in the 12:48:4011 Freeh Report that had "Question 1" and an 12:48:4312 answer. 12:48:4513 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:48:4614 Q Were these questions, if you remember, 12:48:4715 provided to John Barrett? 12:48:4916 A I don't recall. Wouldn't be surprised 12:48:5117 if they were, but I just don't recall that. 12:48:5418 Q Do you recall if Big Ten submitted its 12:48:5619 own similar list of questions to NCAA? 12:48:5920 A To NCAA or to the Freeh Group? 12:49:0321 Q Freeh Group. Good grief. Yes. 12:49:0522 A I don't recall. 12:49:0823 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 12 was marked 12:49:0824 for identification purposes.) 12:49:0825 Q You testified earlier that NCAA also 12:50:06


34 (Pages 130 to 133)

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1 provided witnesses -- potential witness lists, 12:50:092 search terms, et cetera, to Freeh Group. 12:50:143 Am I reading correctly that, in fact, 12:50:204 that was the case? 12:50:225 A I think what I said earlier was that 12:50:246 that was the possibility. I don't know that I 12:50:267 have a specific recollection of witnesses. 12:50:298 Maybe there were some search terms. Maybe there 12:50:339 were witnesses. 12:50:36

10 But, yes, it was the case that there 12:50:3611 were a set of things that we thought would be 12:50:3912 helpful. And they included potential search 12:50:4113 terms and potential witnesses that -- that they 12:50:4514 could interview. 12:50:4915 Q Do you remember if Freeh Group asked you 12:50:5116 for this information or you offered it -- to 12:50:5217 provide it to Freeh Group? 12:50:5518 A Again, I don't recall. We talked about 12:50:5719 this a little earlier. I think it was a product 12:50:5920 of the meeting that we had and may have been 12:51:0121 something that we were thinking and they said, 12:51:0422 "Okay. That's okay to do." It may have been 12:51:0523 something that they said, "Yeah, do that." 12:51:0724 Q Would you agree that in an e-mail from 12:51:1125 Omar McNeill to you, at the bottom of the top 12:51:15

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1 to me, looking at this document, it does reflect 12:52:352 that. 12:52:373 Q Do you remember that specific document 12:52:394 being forwarded to Freeh Group? 12:52:425 A I don't remember this format. Like the 12:52:466 other document we talked about, I remember the 12:52:477 format and how it looked and everything. But 12:52:508 this -- this could very well be that. 12:52:529 Q One second. 12:52:56

10 Mr. Remy, I don't believe we can attach 12:53:0611 that document to any particular e-mail, so -- 12:53:1012 unless you guys have it as a family member to 12:53:1313 another e-mail. 12:53:1814 MR. JOHNSON: We can -- 12:53:2215 MR. KOWALSKI: Bates Number 23947. 12:53:2516 MR. JOHNSON: Donald doesn't know. So why 12:53:3517 don't we check on that, and when we break for 12:53:3618 lunch or something, we'll get back to you, 12:53:4019 because I don't think he knows whether it was 12:53:4020 attached. 12:53:4421 MR. HAVERSTICK: Okay. All right. 12:53:4522 MR. KOWALSKI: It's a stand-alone 12:53:5023 document. It's not attached to an e-mail. 12:53:5024 MR. HAVERSTICK: I'm being told by one of 12:53:5225 my colleagues that -- I think its custodian is 12:53:53

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1 sheet, that he is awaiting your list of 12:51:182 potential witnesses, database terms, et cetera? 12:51:223 I mean, those are the words he uses? 12:51:264 A That's what the document says. 12:51:305 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 13 was marked 12:51:346 for identification purposes.) 12:51:347 Q All right. I'm going to show you a 12:51:358 document that we, unfortunately, have exactly 12:51:379 one copy of, which we have marked. Maybe we can 12:51:40

10 all look at it. It's 13. 12:51:4311 A I get first dibs. I'm the witness. 12:51:4812 Q You and your counsel may get the only 12:51:5213 dibs. And I've got to do it by memory. 12:51:5214 A Okay. 12:52:0115 Q Does that look like search terms that 12:52:0216 NCAA provided to Freeh Group consistent with 12:52:0817 this e-mail? 12:52:1118 A Let me not answer the question the way 12:52:1619 you described it, because I don't know what the 12:52:1720 search terms would have looked like. I don't 12:52:2021 have a recollection of that, if you're talking 12:52:2222 in terms of the format of this document. 12:52:2423 If you're talking about in terms of the 12:52:2724 substance of some search terms that might be 12:52:3025 relevant, it might be helpful to the questions, 12:52:32

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1 listed as Kevin Lennon. But we don't have a -- 12:53:562 we don't have a corresponding document with it, 12:54:003 like an e-mail attachment or anything else. So 12:54:044 that's about all we know. 12:54:085 MR. JOHNSON: Are you trying to ascertain 12:54:096 whether or not it was transmitted? Is that 12:54:107 your point? 12:54:128 MR. HAVERSTICK: If anybody that's now 12:54:149 talking collaboratively -- if anybody has any 12:54:15

10 more insight into, in fact, whether it was 12:54:1811 transmitted or whether it belonged to another 12:54:1912 document -- we just can't tell. So I can't 12:54:2113 represent to you -- 12:54:2514 THE WITNESS: I can't -- I don't know. 12:54:2615 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:54:2716 Q But, in general, does this -- as far as 12:54:2817 you recall about the idea of submitting search 12:54:3418 terms to Freeh Group, is that conceptually what 12:54:3719 you were thinking of when you had your 12:54:4320 conversations with Omar McNeill? 12:54:4421 MR. JOHNSON: Is what conceptually? 12:54:4722 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 12:54:4923 Q That type of document with those types 12:54:4924 of search terms. 12:54:5225 A You know, again, I don't know that I had 12:54:53


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1 a form of a document in my mind. The idea was, 12:54:542 if there were some search terms that might be 12:54:573 helpful in gathering data and information that 12:55:014 would be helpful to responding to the questions, 12:55:065 we would put them together. 12:55:096 And, as I said before, I don't know 12:55:117 whether or not we ever sent the search terms or 12:55:148 what they ever did with them. Looking at this 12:55:179 document, it just doesn't jump out at me and 12:55:20

10 ring a bell. But it could very well be, you 12:55:2311 know, search terms and it could very well have 12:55:2412 been transmitted to the Freeh Group. 12:55:2713 Q I'm going to read to you a colloquy from 12:55:3014 the deposition of Julie Roe Lach. And it's only 12:55:3515 for the purpose of potentially refreshing your 12:55:3916 recollection. And it's page 98 of the 12:55:4217 deposition. 12:55:4518 And I will represent to everyone that 12:55:4919 Ms. Roe Lach was shown that -- that document 12:55:5220 that we -- I have just shown to you and asked if 12:55:5421 she remembered seeing that document. 12:55:5922 "I don't remember this document. I 12:56:0223 remember Donald sending me search terms. Like, 12:56:0524 this format doesn't look familiar to me, is why 12:56:0725 I say I don't remember this document. But I 12:56:10

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1 they did, I have no recollection of them ever 12:57:112 telling me that. 12:57:133 Q So in your weekly phone calls, you don't 12:57:154 ever recall being told by Mr. McNeill that 12:57:165 documents responsive to your search terms were 12:57:216 retrieved? 12:57:247 A You know, again -- and I just want to 12:57:258 make sure we have a clear record here, that even 12:57:269 though the schedule said weekly, we don't have 12:57:29

10 the phone calls weekly. But I take it for the 12:57:3211 purposes of your question. 12:57:3412 I don't recall him ever talking about 12:57:3513 the use of search terms or any results of the 12:57:3814 use of search terms. 12:57:4015 Q Can you live with periodic, if I say it 12:57:4216 that way next time? 12:57:4417 A We can agree to that. 12:57:4518 Q All right. 12:57:4719 MR. HAVERSTICK: It's 1:00 o'clock. I'm 12:57:4720 comfortable taking a break here. 12:57:5021 MR. JOHNSON: Let's stop for lunch. 12:57:5422 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of 12:57:5523 Media File 2. We're now off the record at 12:57:5824 12:56. 12:58:0025 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 12:58:01

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1 remember Donald sending me search terms." 12:56:122 Does that refresh your recollection that 12:56:153 you -- 12:56:174 A No. But it sounds strikingly similar. 12:56:185 Q But it -- does it -- does it refresh 12:56:216 your recollection that you sent search terms to 12:56:227 Ms. Lach? 12:56:258 A What I said earlier is these 12:56:279 questions -- the search terms, the witness 12:56:30

10 interviews, I would have asked the enforcement 12:56:3311 staff to look at. 12:56:3612 I have no reason to doubt what 12:56:3813 Julie Roe Lach says in terms of me asking her -- 12:56:4114 sending her search terms. I just, you know, 12:56:4315 like I said, look at this, and it doesn't really 12:56:4516 ring a bell. 12:56:4817 Q Sitting here today, you have no specific 12:56:4918 memory of anybody you asked to assist in 12:56:5119 creating search terms and witness names and 12:56:5520 other things of that nature? 12:56:5921 A I don't. 12:57:0122 Q Do you know if Freeh Group ever ran 12:57:0223 search terms on documents it was reviewing, 12:57:0524 those search terms? 12:57:0625 A I have no recollection of that. Or if 12:57:09

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1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning 13:47:172 of Media 3 in the videotape of Donald Remy. We 13:53:323 are now on the record at 13:51. 13:53:374 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 13:53:425 Q Mr. Remy, lunch was good. Ours was, I 13:53:436 think. 13:53:487 Let's continue and try to wrap up with 13:53:498 the topic of the questions and search terms, et 13:53:529 cetera. 13:53:59

10 So the record is clear, do you recall 13:54:0011 any communications internally in writing with 13:54:0512 anyone at NCAA about these search terms or 13:54:0813 questions, et cetera? 13:54:1414 A I don't have a specific recollection of 13:54:1615 any e-mails or writings about the search terms, 13:54:1716 no. 13:54:2017 Q And you don't have a specific recall of 13:54:2018 tasking anyone with assisting coming up with 13:54:2219 these search terms and questions? 13:54:2620 A Yes. Unfortunately, I don't. 13:54:2821 Q And am I right that with respect to 13:54:2922 this -- the document I handed you, the last 13:54:3323 exhibit that has search terms on it, you don't 13:54:3524 have a memory of that specific document? 13:54:3825 A I don't have a memory of that document 13:54:42


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1 in this form. I don't even have a memory of 13:54:432 whether or not it was ever transmitted. 13:54:463 Q Does Penn -- did Penn State or anyone at 13:54:484 Penn State know that NCAA was contemplating 13:54:515 sending draft questions or search terms or 13:54:586 proposed witness interview identities on to the 13:55:027 Freeh Group? 13:55:068 MR. JOHNSON: For purposes of this 13:55:089 question, are you excluding the Freeh Group 13:55:09

10 from the definition of Penn State? 13:55:1111 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yes, I mean -- I mean 13:55:1412 Cynthia Baldwin or other Penn State proper 13:55:1413 personnel and not the Freeh Group. 13:55:1714 MS. DOBLICK: I'm just going to lodge an 13:55:2115 objection. Foundation. 13:55:2116 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether or not 13:55:2417 the Freeh Group may have communicated that with 13:55:2518 the Penn State personnel. I don't specifically 13:55:2719 recall having communicated it myself. 13:55:3020 Q In and around this time period, did you 13:55:3421 continue to be in contact with Cynthia Baldwin? 13:55:3722 A I think we talked about earlier in the 13:55:4123 day I recall a few conversations early on. 13:55:4324 Subsequent to the conversations with the Freeh 13:55:4725 Group, I don't have any specific recollection of 13:55:50

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1 A Correct. 13:56:532 Q But you don't remember? 13:56:533 A I don't recall specifically. 13:56:544 Q We will move on in a second. But on 13:57:015 this -- take a look at Exhibit 12 real quick. 13:57:026 A Okay. 13:57:237 Q Up towards the top there is an e-mail to 13:57:238 you from Omar McNeill, Following up on my below 13:57:269 e-mail, assuming that you are comfortable with a 13:57:31

10 conference call education session, would your 13:57:3411 presenter be available next Wednesday, July -- 13:57:3712 January 4? 13:57:3813 You see that? 13:57:4014 A I do. 13:57:4115 Q We are going to get into the education 13:57:4316 session in a second. 13:57:4517 Is the education session referenced 13:57:4618 here, the presentation Ms. Roe gave to Freeh 13:57:4719 Group personnel that was in the PowerPoint form? 13:57:5320 A I think it was Julie Roe Lach and maybe 13:57:5821 even some other members of her staff, but, yes, 13:58:0122 that is what was contemplated. 13:58:0423 Q Whose idea was it to provide Freeh Group 13:58:0524 with an education session? 13:58:0925 A I don't specifically recall. Again, it 13:58:12

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1 conversations with her. 13:55:542 Later on, after the Freeh Report was 13:55:553 issued or around the time Freeh Report was 13:55:584 issued, I had communications with Penn State 13:56:015 personnel. 13:56:046 Q Would that be when your communications 13:56:057 with Penn State first picked back up, then, 13:56:068 after the distribution of the Freeh Report? 13:56:099 A Right around the time the Freeh Report 13:56:11

10 was going to be -- well, there may have been -- 13:56:1311 I mean, I think Freeh issued an interim report 13:56:1312 or there was some interim recommendations or 13:56:1713 steps somewhere in the middle of his report 13:56:2014 process where he recommended some changes, some 13:56:2515 operational changes or internal control changes. 13:56:2816 Or maybe I am misremembering that, but I 13:56:3117 thought there was something in the middle that 13:56:3318 he had provided to Penn State about direction. 13:56:3619 And there may have been communications around 13:56:4020 that time. 13:56:4121 Q Is it your recollection that that was a 13:56:4322 public -- 13:56:4523 A Yes. That was a public -- sorry. 13:56:4624 Q And you may have spoken with someone at 13:56:4925 Penn State around the time that happened? 13:56:51

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1 may have been borne out of the original meeting 13:58:132 that we had or subsequent conversations about 13:58:163 how to provide information that would be useful 13:58:194 in their developing facts and information for 13:58:225 Penn State to ultimately respond to the 13:58:276 questions. 13:58:287 Q Do you ever recall Mr. McNeill 13:58:478 requesting questions in addition to the ones 13:58:529 that NCAA provided? 13:58:58

10 A Well, I think the e-mail that you showed 13:59:0211 me earlier had some reference of if he has any 13:59:0412 questions, this would be Exhibit 12, I will 13:59:0813 review the list of questions provided in the 13:59:1014 attached e-mail and let you know of any 13:59:1215 questions I have. 13:59:1416 I don't recall him ever having any 13:59:1717 questions about the questions, and I don't 13:59:1918 recall a subsequent time where he said, Do you 13:59:2419 have more questions? 13:59:2620 Q All right. I think -- I'm looking at, 13:59:2821 perhaps it's 12. 13:59:2922 A Right. 13:59:3223 Q It's the e-mail from you to Omar 13:59:3324 McNeill. Or do I have that wrong? It is 13:59:3625 signed, "Happy Holidays, Donald Remy," dated 13:59:39


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1 12/28/2011. Is that 12 or is that an earlier 13:59:422 one? 13:59:463 A That's not Exhibit 12. Maybe there is 13:59:494 something -- 13:59:535 MR. JOHNSON: I think you're looking at 13:59:546 10. 13:59:557 MR. HAVERSTICK: 10. I think you're 13:59:568 right. 13:59:569 Q Yeah, take a look at 10, I'm sorry. 13:59:56

10 You write to Mr. McNeill that these, and 14:00:0711 the "these" are the questions attached, may be 14:00:1212 edited and supplemented as we move on. 14:00:1413 My question is whether you recall the 14:00:1614 questions being edited or supplemented at any 14:00:2115 point. 14:00:2416 A I don't. I don't recall that at all. 14:00:2517 Q Do you recall any feedback from 14:00:2918 Mr. McNeill at any point about your questions or 14:00:3319 other submissions to NCAA -- or to Freeh Group, 14:00:3620 rather? 14:00:4021 A Yeah, I don't know what you mean by 14:00:4222 "other submissions." But as it relates to what 14:00:4323 we are talking about here, I don't recall any 14:00:4524 follow up or response or further inquiry from 14:00:4825 Mr. McNeill about the questions the NCAA had 14:00:53

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1 but I don't remember that. 14:02:162 Q Unfortunately, I don't. 14:02:173 A Okay. 14:02:184 Q I have a document that references 15 to 14:02:195 17 people. So what I'm driving at is whether 14:02:226 you have any memory of who those folks are 14:02:247 either by name or how we can figure out who they 14:02:268 were, because, for instance, you knew certain -- 14:02:299 I don't know, all the investigators were 14:02:32

10 supposed to be on the call. 14:02:3511 A The only people in the Freeh Group that 14:02:3612 I remember having any interaction with are Judge 14:02:3913 Freeh -- I mean, Judge Sullivan and Omar McNeill 14:02:4314 and whomever else the Freeh Group had at this 14:02:4715 initial meeting. I thought it was one or two 14:02:4916 other people. 14:02:5117 Q Did you participate in the Roe 14:02:5218 presentation as a -- as a participant or 14:02:5819 listener? 14:02:5920 A I believe I was there. I don't know 14:02:5921 that I presented anything because I had the 14:03:0122 experts there to present, so they were providing 14:03:0523 the information. 14:03:0824 Q Did Ms. Roe do this over the telephone 14:03:0925 or did she do it in person? 14:03:12

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1 provided. 14:00:572 Q Okay. I am going to represent to you -- 14:00:583 and again, I am looking at a document that I am 14:01:014 happy to show you, but to move it along, I'm not 14:01:025 -- it appears that Ms. Roe Lach gave a 14:01:076 presentation to Freeh Group on Friday, 14:01:127 January 6, and that Freeh Group had 15 to 17 14:01:178 people listening in. 14:01:249 Does that sound about right in terms of 14:01:28

10 the time and circumstances of that presentation? 14:01:3011 A In terms of the time, that sounds around 14:01:3312 the time that she gave the presentation. In 14:01:3513 terms of who the Freeh Group had listening in, I 14:01:3714 don't have any recollection of that. 14:01:4115 Q Do you -- do you ever recall discussing 14:01:4316 with Mr. McNeill who at Freeh Group, either by 14:01:4417 name or by function, was intended to be a 14:01:4918 participant in the presentation Ms. Roe gave? 14:01:5319 A I don't remember having enough knowledge 14:02:0020 of how they were divided in terms of functions 14:02:0121 within the Freeh Group to recall that. 14:02:0422 Did they have functions? I'm not sure 14:02:0723 I'm following you right. But I don't know if 14:02:0924 you have a document that can refresh a 14:02:1225 recollection. I would be happy to look it at, 14:02:14

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1 A I actually -- my recollection was it was 14:03:142 a video teleconference, not a whatever you do to 14:03:163 send stuff over the computer or something like 14:03:234 that. 14:03:245 Q You mentioned some other potential 14:03:256 participants on behalf of NCAA. Do the names 14:03:277 Jackie Thurnes and LuAnn Humphrey sound like two 14:03:328 folks who may have participated with Ms. Roe in 14:03:369 the presentation? 14:03:39

10 A Possibly. 14:03:4011 Q And so there's no secrets, I'm reading 14:03:4212 that from an e-mail from Tommy Walls to Omar 14:03:4413 McNeill copying you. 14:03:4914 A Okay. 14:03:5115 Q What do those two folks do at NCAA 14:03:5216 Ms. Thurnes and Ms. Humphrey? 14:03:5717 A I think it is Ms. Thunes. 14:04:0018 Q Thunes? Okay. 14:04:0119 A And I'm not sure if either of them are 14:04:0220 still there. They were part of the enforcement 14:04:0621 staff. They may be enforcement staff 14:04:0822 investigators. 14:04:1223 Q You don't remember? 14:04:1224 A I don't know what their job titles were. 14:04:1425 Q What was the substance of Ms. Roe Lach's 14:04:18


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1 presentation? 14:04:262 A My recollection was, or is, I should 14:04:273 say, that it was about how the NCAA enforcement 14:04:304 staff thinks through the questions around 14:04:365 institutional control and ethical conduct. 14:04:406 Q Why did you think that was relevant 14:04:457 information for the Freeh Group? 14:04:468 A Well, again, it goes back to the letter 14:04:489 of November 17th and the issues that were 14:04:50

10 identified in that letter and how it would be 14:04:5311 helpful for them to gather information to 14:04:5712 provide to Penn State to respond to the letter. 14:04:5813 Q Now, by this point, and that is 14:05:0114 January 2012, early January 2012, had NCAA 14:05:0515 progressed in its thinking towards potential 14:05:1416 enforcement actions against Penn State? 14:05:1717 MR. JOHNSON: So, Donald, as you think 14:05:2118 about answering that question, because it 14:05:2219 expressly asks about thinking, I would 14:05:2420 encourage you to not reveal your own attorney 14:05:2721 work product in your thought process. 14:05:3022 Matt may be asking you more generally 14:05:3323 whether there were conversations. 14:05:3424 Q I asked it quite poorly. I think 14:05:3625 Kip's -- I like Kip's question better. 14:05:40

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1 commence an enforcement investigation? 14:06:452 To my knowledge, at the point in time 14:06:473 that they provided this presentation, they 14:06:494 weren't thinking, yes, this presentation is 14:06:535 related to or in any way around or focused on 14:06:556 the potential to have an investigation at 14:06:597 Penn State; but rather, this is how we think 14:07:018 about these issues. 14:07:049 And to the extent that's helpful to you, 14:07:07

10 Freeh Group, in analyzing and completing your 14:07:1011 investigation, here is some information for 14:07:1412 you. 14:07:1613 But no, to my knowledge, at that point 14:07:1714 in time there wasn't any active movement 14:07:2015 toward an investigation. 14:07:2516 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:07:2617 Q Would Freeh Group's understanding of 14:07:2718 NCAA's thinking on lack of institutional control 14:07:3019 be relevant to the investigation only to the 14:07:3520 extent that the investigation was delving into 14:07:3821 those lack of institutional control issues from 14:07:4122 an NCAA standpoint? 14:07:4323 MR. JOHNSON: Objection to form. 14:07:4624 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can't say that 14:07:4625 that's what they were doing. And I don't know 14:07:47

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1 How about, rather than me asking you 14:05:442 what you were thinking, can you tell me whether 14:05:453 others at NCAA and -- in early January of 2012 14:05:474 were discussing in more certain terms the 14:05:515 prospect of an enforcement action against Penn 14:05:546 State? 14:05:577 MR. JOHNSON: If you can answer that 14:05:588 without revealing attorney-client 14:05:599 communications. 14:06:00

10 THE WITNESS: So I think what I would need 14:06:0111 to do is break down both of your rephrasings of 14:06:0212 that specific question and go back to what we 14:06:0513 talked about earlier in the day, which was: We 14:06:0914 didn't believe that there was enough 14:06:1415 information available at the time of the 14:06:1616 Sandusky indictment for the enforcement staff 14:06:1917 to make a judgment then as to whether or not 14:06:2218 this could or should be an enforcement action, 14:06:2519 should they commence an enforcement 14:06:2720 investigation. 14:06:2921 That's a concept that they have when 14:06:3222 they receive any information. They think 14:06:3623 about whether or not this is something -- 14:06:3824 whether or not we have data or information 14:06:3925 that's useful, and in analyzing, should we 14:06:41

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1 that I agree with the premise of your question; 14:07:482 recall that the Freeh Group had a mandate that 14:07:513 was far broader than NCAA enforcement or NCAA 14:07:544 rules. They were looking across the campus at 14:08:005 a variety of different issues, some of those 14:08:046 issues involved internal controls from a 14:08:067 general organizational standpoint. 14:08:108 So, the idea here was: As you examine 14:08:139 these issues and as you examine what happened 14:08:16

10 in the athletics department, and as you 14:08:1911 gather data and information that would be 14:08:2112 useful in responding to those questions, here 14:08:2313 is some information that might be helpful to 14:08:2614 you. 14:08:2815 Q Can we agree that the information you 14:08:3016 provided that you thought would be helpful on 14:08:3217 lack of institutional control wasn't geared 14:08:3418 towards general institutional control issues; it 14:08:3819 was really coming from or through the prism of 14:08:4220 NCAA's view on what lack of institutional 14:08:4621 control means for its purpose? 14:08:4922 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form only 14:08:5123 because I'm not sure of the distinction. 14:08:5224 But if you understand. 14:08:5425 THE WITNESS: What I can say to you about 14:08:55


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1 that is yes, the NCAA has a view that its 14:08:562 membership has endorsed around institutional 14:09:023 control of athletics programs and that view is 14:09:054 expressed in its bylaws, that view is expressed 14:09:105 in a white paper that describe that idea, and 14:09:136 that issue is raised in a number of cases that 14:09:167 ultimately come before the committee on 14:09:208 infraction. 14:09:239 So there is a process of examining 14:09:23

10 institutional control that the NCAA members 14:09:2611 have used historically to look at those 14:09:3112 issues. 14:09:3413 So when the enforcement staff goes and 14:09:3414 presents information to the Freeh Group, its, 14:09:3715 in general terms, about that institutional 14:09:3916 control as it relates to the athletics 14:09:4317 department and the process that they go about 14:09:4618 in evaluating those questions. 14:09:4819 You know, but again, it ties back to 14:09:5020 the -- as you're looking at the Sandusky 14:09:5321 indictment and the issues related to that, 14:09:5622 there are questions that will help us analyze 14:09:5923 how we should move forward, and this is 14:10:0224 information that might be helpful to you in 14:10:0525 that analysis. 14:10:07

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1 Likely, because it contains information 14:11:332 about specific investigations involving specific 14:11:353 universities and what happened in cases in those 14:11:394 circumstances. 14:11:465 Q Specific NCAA investigations of 14:11:476 specific -- 14:11:517 A NCAA members. 14:11:528 Q -- of NCAA infractions? 14:11:539 A That would have occurred at various 14:11:56

10 institutions that are members of the 14:11:5711 association. 14:12:0012 Q And would those have been investigations 14:12:0013 that were conducted by enforcement? 14:12:0214 A I believe so. 14:12:0515 Q Okay. The -- this e-mail is -- subject 14:12:0616 line is "Presentation Documents." 14:12:1517 Do you recall the second exhibit was 14:12:1818 attached to this e-mail? 14:12:2119 A This specific exhibit, if you represent 14:12:2620 to me that this was the attachment, I will agree 14:12:2721 with you on that. It looks like the 14:12:3022 presentation that was provided at the time. 14:12:3223 Q I mean, I can represent that it was the 14:12:3424 presentation. I think it was attached to this 14:12:3625 e-mail. I'm always the last to know this stuff. 14:12:37

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1 Q Let's take a look at it just so that we, 14:10:072 in fairness to all of us, have something 14:10:093 concrete in front of us. 14:10:124 I am going to show you documents we've 14:10:145 marked as 14 and 15. 14:10:156 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 14 was marked 14:10:177 for identification purposes.) 14:10:178 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 15 was marked 14:10:189 for identification purposes.) 14:10:18

10 MR. HAVERSTICK: It is the PowerPoint and 14:10:2711 we have precisely two copies, unfortunately. 14:10:2712 We have copies of the first exhibit. 14:10:3213 If people need a minute to go grab the 14:10:3614 exhibit from Roe, we can do that. 14:10:3815 THE WITNESS: I looked at the first 14:10:5116 document. 14:10:5217 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:10:5218 Q Let's take a look at the top sheet 14:10:5219 first. Then we will talk about the second one. 14:10:5420 The e-mail we are looking at is the 14:11:0421 first exhibit is marked confidential. Why? 14:11:0822 A I would have to look at the attachments 14:11:1323 probably -- 14:11:1524 Q Go ahead. 14:11:1625 A -- to make that judgment. 14:11:16

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1 The fourth sentence in this e-mail 14:12:482 reads: "As discussed, this informational 14:12:493 briefing is being provided to your team to 14:12:514 illustrate how the NCAA enforcement staff 14:12:535 historically has examined issues involving 14:12:566 institutional control and ethical conduct." 14:12:587 A Yes. 14:13:018 Q And that's accurate? 14:13:019 A That is. 14:13:02

10 Q The last sentence in that paragraph 14:13:1111 reads: "We hope to get you the additional 14:13:1212 information we discussed in short order." 14:13:1513 What additional information? 14:13:1714 A I don't -- I don't have a recollection 14:13:2715 of that. If there's -- there may be an e-mail 14:13:2816 that reflects what it is. 14:13:3117 I don't have a recollection of what that 14:13:3918 might be. 14:13:4119 Q Did Ms. Roe actually conduct the 14:13:4720 PowerPoint presentation? 14:13:4921 A I believe she and her staff were 14:13:5222 participants in this. I don't know what you 14:13:5423 mean by conduct the presentation, but I think 14:13:5624 that she and her staff presented this material 14:13:5825 to the participants on the -- on the video 14:14:02


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1 teleconference. 14:14:052 Q And went through it the way we all have 14:14:063 to when we do the PowerPoint slide? We pull up 14:14:074 the slide and talk about the information on the 14:14:115 slide for a bit and then move on to the next 14:14:136 slide? 14:14:157 A Yeah. I can't say that they talked 14:14:168 about every single slide. 14:14:199 Q Okay. 14:14:20

10 A We've all done PowerPoint presentations 14:14:2111 and we skip over slides and the like, and in the 14:14:2312 interest of time try to make sure that we use 14:14:2713 the best and most efficient method to get the 14:14:2914 information out. 14:14:3215 So I can't sit here today and say yes, 14:14:3316 they looked at every slide and talked about 14:14:3417 every slide. But that would be the process that 14:14:3618 they would use to provide the information. 14:14:3719 Q Do you remember whether there was a 14:14:4120 period allotted for questions at the end of this 14:14:4221 presentation? 14:14:4622 A I don't recall, but, you know, that 14:14:4723 would be the ordinary way when you provide 14:14:4924 educational information, that you give people an 14:14:5125 opportunity to ask questions. 14:14:53

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1 A It speaks for itself, so the document is 14:16:112 in the record, yeah. 14:16:123 Q So Ms. Roe was, at least in the 14:16:134 beginning of the presentation, explaining 14:16:145 particular NCAA constitutional bylaw provisions 14:16:166 to people at Freeh Group? 14:16:217 A Well, again, I don't know which part she 14:16:228 presented or which part her staff presented. 14:16:249 And I don't know if they covered every slide or 14:16:27

10 if she had to explain these. 14:16:3011 If you look at these various cites to 14:16:3212 the NCAA constitution there, they're pretty 14:16:3413 self-explanatory. 14:16:3714 Q So, does that mean that you don't think 14:16:3915 that she did more than just show the slide or 14:16:4416 did she actually -- you don't remember? 14:16:4717 A I don't -- I don't recall specifically, 14:16:5018 but, you know, you can flip through and read 14:16:5019 them. 14:16:5220 Q Someone was putting the slides up, 14:16:5321 whether it was Ms. Roe or someone else in the 14:16:5522 staff, and talking at least in some fashion 14:16:5823 about what the slide said, generally? 14:16:5924 A Possibly, but I just don't know if they 14:17:0225 talked about every slide. 14:17:03

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1 I don't know if they did it at the end. 14:14:542 I don't remember if they did it in the middle. 14:14:563 But ordinarily, you would give people an 14:14:574 opportunity to ask questions. 14:15:015 Q Do you remember any questions being 14:15:016 asked at all? 14:15:037 A I don't have that specific of a 14:15:058 recollection, I've got to tell you. 14:15:069 Q Do you remember anyone from Freeh Group 14:15:09

10 speaking or participating during this 14:15:1211 presentation; as a presenter, not as a question 14:15:1412 asker? 14:15:1913 A As a presenter? 14:15:2014 Q As a presenter? 14:15:2215 A No, I don't think that that happened. 14:15:2316 That wasn't the purpose of the -- of the 14:15:2417 educational briefing. So... 14:15:2618 Q If you would, please, take a look at the 14:15:3019 next exhibit, the presentation itself. 14:15:3420 I'm going to flip through it, but in 14:15:4621 general, am I accurate that this presentation, 14:15:5122 at least the beginning portion of it, discusses 14:15:5623 NCAA constitutional terms? 14:16:0024 A Well, maybe -- sure -- 14:16:0925 Q The slide -- 14:16:10

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1 Q All right. 14:17:042 A I mean, that would be the point of an 14:17:043 educational presentation. 14:17:054 Q Sure. And fair enough. I'm not -- I'm 14:17:065 not -- I don't take your answer to mean that 14:17:076 you're saying somebody talked about every single 14:17:097 slide. 14:17:128 There are some, following the 14:17:139 constitutional provisions, slides discussing 14:17:14

10 institutional control analysis. 14:17:1811 Am I correct that the institutional 14:17:2512 control analysis referenced in the slides is the 14:17:2913 analysis that enforcement uses when it evaluates 14:17:3214 issues of institutional control? 14:17:3615 And take as much time as you want with 14:17:4116 them. 14:17:4217 A What I would say in response to your 14:18:0018 question, which I recall was: Is it correct 14:18:0219 that this reflects the analysis that the 14:18:0420 enforcement staff would use when it examines 14:18:0621 institutional control, is that they would use 14:18:0822 this formula or this approach and so, too, would 14:18:1423 the committee on infractions when it evaluates 14:18:1824 an institutional control case presented to it. 14:18:2125 This seems to kind of reflect the 14:18:26


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1 methodology that's used by the committee as well 14:18:302 as by the enforcement staff to look at 14:18:323 institutional control issues. 14:18:374 Q There is a section called "rules 14:18:385 education," I'll try to pop through this 14:18:406 relatively quickly. 14:18:487 This section refers to education of NCAA 14:18:498 rules to member institutions. 14:18:549 Am I -- do I have that right? 14:18:55

10 A So, as a component of institutional 14:19:0611 control analysis, one of the things that you 14:19:0912 look at is whether or not the member institution 14:19:1113 has a rules education program that's a typical 14:19:1514 compliance analysis. 14:19:1815 And so this reflects that the member 14:19:1916 institution, in demonstrating that they have the 14:19:2317 proper controls, has a rules education program. 14:19:2618 That's what I think this reflects. 14:19:2819 Q Same general information reflected by 14:19:3220 the following section, "Commitment to 14:19:3621 Compliance"? 14:19:3722 A Yeah, pretty much. 14:20:0323 Q The case precedent you cited earlier 14:20:0524 that may be the reason the presentation was 14:20:0925 deemed confidential, that is enforcement cases 14:20:12

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1 Q The next section is, "Ethical Policies 14:21:192 and Expectations." This, again, is a section 14:21:273 devoted to discussions of NCAA bylaws? 14:21:324 A Yes. Those bylaws that go to questions 14:21:435 around unethical conduct or exemplary conduct. 14:21:456 Q And then the section following it again 14:21:497 is a case study section. Is this again similar 14:21:508 instances in which Ms. Roe or her staff are 14:21:549 demonstrating how unethical conduct plays out, 14:22:00

10 perhaps, in the real NCAA world? 14:22:0311 A Yes. I guess I would just take the way 14:22:0612 they described it as case studies of ethical 14:22:0813 policies and expectations. Yeah. 14:22:1114 Q So looking at the presentation that 14:22:1315 Ms. Roe and her colleagues gave, this PowerPoint 14:22:1616 really is a presentation of educational issues 14:22:2417 on institutional control as it relates to the 14:22:3018 NCAA? 14:22:3419 MR. JOHNSON: Asked and answered. 14:22:3720 You can answer again. 14:22:3821 THE WITNESS: Institutional control and 14:22:3922 unethical conduct as it relates to what happens 14:22:4023 on a member institution campus. 14:22:4424 Q Okay. Do you recall, after the 14:22:4725 presentation, discussing the issues raised 14:22:59

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1 or COI cases? 14:20:162 A It is interesting the way you asked that 14:20:223 question. Maybe you really do understand 14:20:244 enforcement and COI. Because, you know, not 14:20:265 every case that the enforcement staff looks into 14:20:286 ends up before the committee on infractions. 14:20:317 That's why I liked the way you asked the 14:20:338 question. 14:20:369 Q I am aware of that. 14:20:36

10 A Yeah, these appear to be cases that -- 14:20:3711 that the enforcement staff conducted 14:20:3812 investigations and that went to the committee on 14:20:4213 infractions for their determination as to what 14:20:4514 to do. 14:20:4815 Q There is a section denominated, "Head 14:20:5216 Coach Control." That just looks like it's a 14:20:5517 description of an NCAA bylaw. 14:20:5818 Do I have that right? 14:21:0019 A It is. But again, this whole 14:21:0420 presentation is about institutional control and 14:21:0521 ethical conduct. And I think what they're 14:21:0822 providing here is information about those two 14:21:1023 principles and how the enforcement staff 14:21:1224 traditionally and historically has looked at 14:21:1625 them. 14:21:18

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1 further -- in the presentation, that is, further 14:23:042 with Mr. McNeill? 14:23:063 A I don't recall that. No. 14:23:084 Q He didn't have questions about, 14:23:125 potentially, applicability of the issues raised 14:23:136 in the presentation to what was going on at Penn 14:23:177 State? 14:23:198 A He -- he may have had questions. You 14:23:209 would have to ask him that. But I don't -- I 14:23:22

10 don't recall any -- any engagement or 14:23:2311 back-and-forth about whatever questions he might 14:23:2612 have had. 14:23:2813 Q Do you ever recall having a conversation 14:23:3014 with Mr. McNeil at any time on a continuum of, 14:23:3215 say, November to July of -- November '11 to July 14:23:3616 '12 of discussing the applicability of NCAA's 14:23:4117 bylaws to the facts as Freeh Group was 14:23:4618 discovering them at Penn State? 14:23:5019 A Again, let me rephrase it to make it 14:23:5220 work in my mind. 14:23:5421 We've talked a couple times today about 14:23:5722 early conversations with the Freeh Group, and 14:23:5923 about the reality that their investigation was 14:24:0124 going to gather data to allow answers to be 14:24:0525 provided to those four questions. 14:24:09


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1 So I suspect in the early conversations 14:24:112 that we had about how to move forward, we talked 14:24:143 about, those are the four questions that Penn 14:24:174 State has committed to respond to at the end of 14:24:195 your investigation. 14:24:226 Those questions obviously involve 14:24:237 institutional control and unethical conduct and 14:24:258 other bylaws, so as you conduct your 14:24:279 investigation, we'll give you information that 14:24:29

10 will help you gather those facts. 14:24:3111 So I don't know if that's responsive to 14:24:3412 what you're asking, but it sounds like, you 14:24:3513 know, what we've talked about earlier in the 14:24:3714 day. 14:24:4015 Q Close. 14:24:4016 Did you ever have a conversation with 14:24:4317 Mr. McNeill in which he informed you of facts 14:24:4418 the investigation had uncovered and solicited 14:24:4719 your view on whether those facts amounted to 14:24:5020 NCAA bylaw violations? 14:24:5221 A I don't recall any conversations like 14:24:5522 that and don't believe one occurred. 14:24:5623 Q Why do you believe one didn't occur? 14:24:5924 A Because, as we talked about earlier, 14:25:0225 that wasn't the nature of the cooperation in 14:25:03

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1 first meeting, I would say sure. We had -- we 14:26:012 wondered and had legitimate questions around who 14:26:043 was going to be interviewed, how they were going 14:26:084 to be interviewed. 14:26:105 But the product of that, in terms of 14:26:126 these updates that we talked about, was merely 14:26:137 about the schedule, about the progress, and 14:26:158 which direction they were going. 14:26:189 Q And I meant to ask you a question about 14:26:19

10 those periodic phone calls. 14:26:2211 A Hey, yeah, I like that. 14:26:2512 Q The conference call information and pass 14:26:2813 code information was -- was a Freeh Group 14:26:3114 conference call and pass code, or do you 14:26:3615 remember? 14:26:3816 A I'm guessing it was. I mean, it changed 14:26:3917 -- I do remember it changed because I remember 14:26:4218 one time we called in and he said, "No, we've 14:26:4419 got a new pass code and this is what it is." 14:26:4620 I presume it was a Freeh Group. I don't 14:26:4921 know if it was somebody -- it wasn't mine. It 14:26:5022 mean, it wasn't the Big 10's. 14:26:5123 Q That's what I -- that's what I was 14:26:5224 trying to -- so if I -- if I wanted to determine 14:26:5225 how long the calls were, I would have to go to 14:26:55

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1 monitoring that we had going on with the Freeh 14:25:072 Group. 14:25:093 Q It was a one-way street? You would give 14:25:104 Freeh Group information but they wouldn't give 14:25:135 it back? 14:25:156 A No, that's not what we said. What we 14:25:167 said was -- I was talking about during the calls 14:25:178 over time, they provided us with updates as to 14:25:189 their interviews and the kind of broad areas 14:25:23

10 that they were covering. 14:25:2711 This information that we just finished 14:25:2912 discussing was educational information provided 14:25:3113 to them. That is not the question that you 14:25:3314 asked me. 14:25:3515 Q Why would Freeh Group update you and Big 14:25:3616 Ten on the status of who it was interviewing? 14:25:3917 A Just so we would have an understanding 14:25:4318 of the progress of their investigation. 14:25:4419 Q It would not have been sufficient for 14:25:4820 your purposes to just be told, "We're 75 percent 14:25:4921 done"? 14:25:5422 Did you want to know who they were 14:25:5423 interviewing? 14:25:5724 A You know, I don't recall who -- where 14:25:5725 the idea generated. So if you go back to the 14:25:59

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1 Freeh Group and get from -- the information from 14:26:572 them on the records for those conference calls? 14:26:593 They wouldn't exist at NCAA or Big Ten? 14:27:024 A I wouldn't have them. I don't know that 14:27:055 they would exist. But you probably have more 14:27:066 technological knowledge than I do. 14:27:097 MR. HAVERSTICK: Get out 35. 14:27:118 Q While we pull that, over time in your 14:27:289 periodic phone calls, did you receive more 14:27:31

10 substantive information about what was going on 14:27:3611 in the Freeh Group investigation? 14:27:3812 MR. JOHNSON: More than what? 14:27:4213 Q Than you did at the beginning, which 14:27:4314 sounds like it was identities of witnesses being 14:27:4415 interviewed, et cetera. 14:27:4816 MR. JOHNSON: I understand. 14:27:5117 Go ahead. 14:27:5218 THE WITNESS: I don't think we talked 14:27:5319 about me receiving substantive information at 14:27:5320 all. I don't -- I don't recall calls or 14:27:5621 conversations with the Freeh Group when they 14:28:0122 were providing substantive information. 14:28:0223 Now, if your -- if it's your view that, 14:28:0424 you know, witnesses and schedules and things 14:28:0725 like that are substantive, we can talk about 14:28:10


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1 that. I just don't look at it that way. 14:28:122 Q You don't look at -- explain why you 14:28:143 don't look at it that way. 14:28:164 A Well, it's a status update. It's a -- 14:28:175 it's information that relates to the progress of 14:28:186 the investigation. 14:28:217 Q You don't view providing lists of search 14:28:238 terms to Freeh Group as the exchange of 14:28:269 substantive information? 14:28:29

10 MR. JOHNSON: I thought your question was 14:28:3111 about the Freeh Group providing substantive 14:28:3212 information to the NCAA. 14:28:3413 MR. HAVERSTICK: You're right. It was. 14:28:3614 And that's a fair point. 14:28:3615 Q And let's stick with that for a minute. 14:28:3916 You don't recall Freeh Group ever, in 14:28:4417 terms of what you consider substantive 14:28:4718 information, providing you with substantive 14:28:4919 information? 14:28:5120 A I don't recall that. No. 14:28:5321 Q You consider what you were being 14:28:5422 provided by Freeh Group as update information? 14:28:5523 A Status. 14:29:0024 Q Do you consider what NCAA provided to 14:29:0225 Freeh Group to have been substantive 14:29:06

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1 afternoon. 14:29:582 Do you consider the sending of those 14:30:003 questions to and -- by NCAA to Freeh Group to have 14:30:034 been submission of substantive information to 14:30:065 NCAA? Did I say that right? 14:30:096 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. 14:30:097 You can answer. Just has to do with 14:30:108 what people think of as "substantive." You 14:30:129 can answer. 14:30:14

10 THE WITNESS: Right. And that's how we 14:30:1411 started this conversation around, Well, I don't 14:30:1612 know what you think is substantive, in this 14:30:1813 context and what we were providing to the Freeh 14:30:2014 Group was educational, which is information to 14:30:2215 help them understand the issues that were in 14:30:2316 the -- or questions. 14:30:2617 I don't -- again, I think we talked a 14:30:2718 little bit about this earlier. If I didn't, 14:30:2919 let me say I don't know what they did that 14:30:3120 with that information. I don't have any 14:30:3321 recollection of them using it. 14:30:3522 So, in that context, no, probably not 14:30:3723 substantive. 14:30:4024 Q I am going to show you very quickly 14:30:4225 Exhibit 16. 14:30:45

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1 information? 14:29:082 A It was educational information. 14:29:093 Q How was a list of potential search terms 14:29:144 educational? 14:29:195 A It was -- 14:29:196 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. Only 14:29:207 because I'm not sure we've established that 14:29:218 they provided that. 14:29:229 But you can answer the question. 14:29:23

10 THE WITNESS: But we talked earlier about 14:29:2511 the possibility of providing questions, of 14:29:2712 providing search terms, of providing potential 14:29:2913 witnesses, so we talked about that. I can't 14:29:3214 say what was said in the e-mail or not. 14:29:3415 But that was all information to help the 14:29:3616 Freeh Group understand how we were thinking 14:29:3917 about information that could be gathered to 14:29:4318 respond to the November 17th letter. 14:29:4619 Q We have established that you did send a 14:29:4820 list of questions. 14:29:5121 A We did. Or that they were sent. 14:29:5322 THE WITNESS: Did I send them? 14:29:5623 Q They were sent -- 14:29:5724 A Okay. 14:29:5725 Q I think -- I think it was sent in the 14:29:58

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1 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 16 was marked 14:30:462 for identification purposes.) 14:30:463 Q Real quick-hit question. Omar McNeill 14:31:054 writes to you on January 6 about the 14:31:085 presentation that we just talked about. And 14:31:116 writes: "Remember that John Barrett also likely 14:31:157 will be on." 14:31:188 Is there any particular relevance to the 14:31:209 fact that John Barrett would be on that phone 14:31:22

10 call? 14:31:2411 A As I read this document, it suggests to 14:31:2612 me that we got to make sure that everybody has 14:31:2813 the same pass code -- 14:31:3014 Q Okay. All right. 14:31:3215 A -- and the same telephone number. 14:31:3316 Q Do you recall John Barrett did 14:31:3417 participate in the -- I will call it the Roe 14:31:3518 presentation? We agree we don't know exactly 14:31:3919 who did it. 14:31:4120 A Well, this document appears to me to be 14:31:4221 about a conversation after the presentation. I 14:31:4622 don't know if it was one of our periodic calls 14:31:5223 or not. But it looks like a 9:00 o'clock call 14:31:5524 after the presentation. John is going to be on 14:31:5925 it, let's make sure we all have the same phone 14:32:02


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1 number. 14:32:042 Q So we -- okay. And you're right about 14:32:053 that. I see that too. 14:32:064 It doesn't -- you don't have a specific 14:32:085 recollection right now whether Barrett was on 14:32:106 the call or not? 14:32:117 A I don't but, you know, I presume that he 14:32:148 would be. This message says that he'll be on 14:32:169 there. 14:32:19

10 Q Okay. In fact, if I -- again, I will 14:32:2111 show it to you if you want it, if -- there was 14:32:2512 an e-mail from -- from Barrett to you and Omar 14:32:2813 telling you you just signed off the Roe Lach 14:32:3614 call and, Thanks for allowing me to participate. 14:32:4115 Do you have any reason to think he 14:32:4516 didn't participate in the call? 14:32:4717 A No. Maybe roll call wasn't had or 14:32:4818 something -- 14:32:5119 Q Okay. 14:32:5120 A -- and he just wanted to make it clear 14:32:5121 that he was on the call. 14:32:5222 Q Okay. 14:32:5423 MR. JOHNSON: Pause for just a second. 14:32:5524 What is Exhibit 15? 14:32:5625 THE WITNESS: PowerPoint. 14:33:04

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1 Q I don't mean it that way. 14:34:492 A Okay. 14:34:493 Q Do you remember any other phone calls 14:34:504 other than the three -- the trio that we've 14:34:515 identified are on the periodic calls, do you 14:34:556 remember any other phone calls with you three 14:34:587 and someone else from NCAA, other than Ms. Roe's 14:35:028 presentation? 14:35:079 A Any other phone calls that were the 14:35:11

10 periodic updates? 14:35:1411 Q Any -- any phone calls at all. Any 14:35:1612 phone calls or meetings, let's extend it to 14:35:1913 that, that occurred between the three of you and 14:35:2314 somebody else from NCAA aside from the ones we 14:35:2915 discussed already? 14:35:3416 A Not that I can recall. When you say, 14:35:3817 "any," that's what is causing me to pause and 14:35:4318 have to think through to try to recall for me 14:35:4519 all of the conversations that may have occurred. 14:35:4920 At the time of the press announcement or 14:35:5421 the Twitter announcement of the Freeh Report 14:35:5922 being released, I'm trying to remember whether 14:36:0523 or not, you know, that -- that press 14:36:0824 announcement, whether or not we had Bob involved 14:36:1225 to -- to learn when they were going to have the 14:36:15

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1 MR. JOHNSON: What is 14? 14:33:042 THE WITNESS: It's the e-mail exchange. 14:33:063 MR. JOHNSON: It's not working in my pile, 14:33:144 but I will figure it out on a break. 14:33:165 MR. GARDEN: 30 -- 35764 is the Bates. 14:33:216 MR. JOHNSON: Of 13? 14:33:277 MR. GARDEN: 14, yes. 14:33:358 MR. JOHNSON: Got it. Thank you. 14:33:379 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:33:39

10 Q Other than those documents I've put 14:33:4511 before you today, namely the Roe presentation, 14:33:4812 the questions which we acknowledge went to Freeh 14:33:5513 Group, and the search terms list which may have, 14:33:5814 we don't know, are you aware of any other 14:34:0115 educational materials that were provided by NCAA 14:34:0416 to Freeh Group? 14:34:1217 A Not that I can recall off the top of my 14:34:1718 head. No. 14:34:1819 Q Do you recall any teleconferences with 14:34:2220 Freeh Group, whether periodic or ad hoc, that 14:34:3021 involved anyone from NCAA other than 14:34:3622 Messrs. Barrett and McNeill? 14:34:3923 A Well -- 14:34:4724 Q I'm sorry, they're not -- 14:34:4725 A -- remember, they're not -- 14:34:49

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1 press announcement. 14:36:192 I'm not sure about that. But that's 14:36:203 probably not what you're getting at because you 14:36:224 asked the question any other calls at any point 14:36:235 in time. 14:36:266 I'm thinking could there have been a 14:36:277 call where someone else from the NCAA besides 14:36:298 myself was involved. 14:36:319 It also prompted me to think about a 14:36:34

10 different question that you didn't ask, which 14:36:3611 is: Was anybody else ever on the phone? And I 14:36:3912 may be misremembering this, but there may have 14:36:4513 been an occasion where one of John's partners 14:36:4714 might have been on the phone rather than John 14:36:5315 because he was unavailable. That may have 14:36:5416 occurred. 14:36:5817 Q After your periodic telephone calls for 14:37:0118 the updates, who within NCAA did you discuss 14:37:0419 what happened on the call, or with whom in NCAA 14:37:1020 did you discuss what happened on the call? 14:37:1221 MR. JOHNSON: You should probably answer 14:37:1522 this with names first, and then we will try and 14:37:1623 figure out if the content is privileged. 14:37:1824 THE WITNESS: Well, first, there's a 14:37:2125 little foundational issue here and that 14:37:22


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1 presumes that I had a discussion -- 14:37:242 Q Did you? 14:37:263 A -- with anybody. 14:37:274 Q Yeah. Did you? 14:37:285 A And I don't recall having those 14:37:286 conversations with anybody. 14:37:307 Q You don't recall ever speaking with, 14:37:318 say, President Emmert to brief him on what you 14:37:339 learned in a periodic phone call? 14:37:37

10 A I don't -- when you say "ever," 14:37:4011 that's -- it's pretty definitive. I don't 14:37:4112 recall specific conversations. I don't doubt 14:37:4513 that there may have been conversations where I 14:37:4714 said, Yeah, we had the call with the Freeh Group 14:37:4915 today, they have said they are halfway through 14:37:5116 their investigation, they talked to this set of 14:37:5417 witnesses. 14:37:5618 I wouldn't have had a specific time set 14:37:5819 up to go back and say, Dr. Emmert, we had this 14:38:0120 call today, this is what they said on the call. 14:38:0521 I don't remember anything like that. 14:38:0722 Q I get that. That you don't -- we're not 14:38:0923 talking about some sort of specific internal 14:38:1124 setup. Let's say more generally, were there 14:38:1425 folks inside NCAA who you kept generally 14:38:17

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1 Q Mr. -- 14:39:342 A So I mean, I don't have a specific 14:39:373 recollection of that. And I just don't think 14:39:384 that I would have been doing that with -- with 14:39:415 Dave. 14:39:436 Q Mr. Williams? 14:39:447 A Other than what I mentioned to you 14:39:468 earlier around -- around, at the end before the 14:39:489 Freeh Report was released and the press 14:39:53

10 announcement came out. 14:39:5511 Now, there may have been a case where, 14:39:5712 in the context of a senior management group 14:39:5913 meeting, or, you know, a group meeting that I 14:40:0314 said, Hey, you know, hey, guys, talked to Omar 14:40:0615 McNeill and John Barrett, learned this today. 14:40:1016 That might have been happened in the 14:40:1417 context of one of our little senior management 14:40:1518 group meetings, maybe. 14:40:1919 Q You didn't have any kind of regular 14:40:2020 engagement or appointment to brief folks on what 14:40:2221 you were learning from these calls? 14:40:2522 A Not that I recall, no. 14:40:2723 Q Did you take notes? 14:40:2924 A No. 14:40:3025 Q Did you record the time you spent on 14:40:35

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1 apprized of what was going on in the Freeh 14:38:222 investigation, at least based on what you knew 14:38:253 about it? 14:38:264 A I like the word you used earlier which 14:38:275 was "ad hoc." And not in the context of this 14:38:296 question, but in the context of my response to 14:38:327 your question. 14:38:348 There may have been times where 14:38:369 periodically after one of these calls I would 14:38:38

10 have a conversation with Dr. Emmert about the 14:38:4111 call. You know, and again, there's not a lot of 14:38:4612 information coming out the call, but I may have 14:38:4913 had those calls from time to time and those 14:38:5214 conversations from time to time. 14:38:5515 Q Do you remember ever having a 14:38:5616 conversation like that with Ms. Roe? 14:38:5817 A I don't recall that. I mean, other than 14:39:0518 early on when we were trying to establish, can 14:39:0819 you come provide some educational information. 14:39:0920 Q How about Mr. Berst? 14:39:1321 A I don't think so. I mean, you know, 14:39:1922 with Dave and I, it was more after the Freeh 14:39:2023 Report was released that we began talking and 14:39:2324 working together to communicate with Penn State 14:39:2825 about the issues moving forward. 14:39:33

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1 these calls in any way? 14:40:402 A What do you mean by that? 14:40:423 Q Well, I assume -- 14:40:434 A One of the reasons you go in-house is so 14:40:445 you don't have to keep track of your time in 14:40:476 six-minute increments. 14:40:507 Q That was my -- that was going to be my 14:40:508 assumption. 14:40:529 So there is not going to be anything 14:40:52

10 like that? NCAA doesn't have any kind of 14:40:5411 internal tracking system or calendaring system 14:40:5612 to say what you're doing during the day? 14:40:5913 A Not that I'm -- I mean, we have Outlook. 14:41:0114 We have a calendar, but it doesn't track your 14:41:0215 time in six-minute increments, no. 14:41:0416 Q It's going to not show any more 14:41:0617 information than -- than the, say, the Outlook 14:41:0718 invite would show? 14:41:0919 A Yeah, which is the standard time set 14:41:1120 aside for this particular communication. 14:41:1321 Q This will be another quick-hit question. 14:41:1622 MR. HAVERSTICK: While he does that, mark 14:41:3323 this as 17. 14:42:2124 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 17 was marked 14:42:2225 for identification purposes.) 14:42:22


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1 Q I have shown you an e-mail reflecting 14:42:352 correspondence between you, Mr. Barrett, and 14:42:373 Mr. McNeill on May 25, 2012. 14:42:394 And I'm particularly interested in 14:42:465 Mr. McNeill's e-mail to you and Mr. Barrett that 14:42:506 reads -- and it's in the middle of the page -- 14:42:547 "I also likely will have more to report on 14:42:568 Tuesday rather than today." 14:42:599 Do you see that? 14:43:01

10 A I do. 14:43:0111 Q Do you have -- do you know why 14:43:0312 Mr. McNeill believed he would have more to 14:43:1213 report after Memorial Day weekend than before? 14:43:1514 A You know, first of all, all these 14:43:1815 e-mails end with, Have a great New Year, Have a 14:43:2016 Merry Christmas, Have a great Memorial -- we do 14:43:2417 things around holidays. We never get a break. 14:43:2618 Yeah, he probably didn't have any 14:43:3019 interviews, for whatever reason, during that 14:43:3220 time period and said, Look, there is no reason 14:43:3421 to have a call now. Let's have a call at some 14:43:3622 later point in time so that I can actually tell 14:43:3923 you what we did. 14:43:4124 Q Okay. 14:43:4225 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 18 was marked 14:43:43

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1 Q Yes. 14:45:302 A It says, "We will not interfere with 14:45:353 those efforts. We will determine whether any 14:45:374 additional action is necessary on our part at 14:45:395 the appropriate time." It says, "We're actively 14:45:426 collecting information or actively monitoring." 14:45:467 Q So the first sentence of this press 14:45:498 release says that, yes, in fact, the NCAA is 14:45:519 actively collecting information from the special 14:45:54

10 committee investigative council, which we know 14:45:5811 to be the Freeh Group. 14:46:0112 What information was NCAA actively 14:46:0213 collecting from the Freeh Group in June 30, 14:46:0414 2012? 14:46:0715 THE COURT REPORTER: June 30 or 3rd? 14:46:0716 MR. HAVERSTICK: June 30, 3-0. 14:46:0717 THE WITNESS: 3-0. 14:46:0718 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:46:0719 Q If you know. 14:46:0820 A Well, this goes back to the same thing 14:46:1421 we've been talking about. You know, the status 14:46:1522 updates, the witness interviews, the progress of 14:46:1723 the investigation, you know, again, to determine 14:46:2124 our next steps, when we are going to do this. 14:46:2425 This information will aid in our review 14:46:27

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1 for identification purposes.) 14:43:432 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:44:053 Q We are on to Remy 18. 14:44:064 I'm interested here in the block quote 14:44:265 in the middle of the page. 14:44:316 Do you recall whether that block quote 14:44:367 was a press statement that had been released by 14:44:388 NCAA prior to the date of this e-mail, which is 14:44:459 June 30, 2012? 14:44:47

10 A It indicates that it had, but you would 14:44:5211 have to pull it up. I mean, here it says, "Our 14:44:5612 previous statement still stands which I have 14:45:0013 provided below as an FYI." 14:45:0214 So it indicates that at some point in 14:45:0615 time this statement was released by the NCAA. 14:45:0816 Q Do you recall, as you sit here, when it 14:45:1217 was released the first time? 14:45:1418 A I don't. 14:45:1619 Q Any reason looking at it that it would 14:45:1720 be -- would not be accurate? 14:45:2121 MR. JOHNSON: What would not be accurate? 14:45:2422 Q The statement. 14:45:2623 A All of it? 14:45:2624 Q Sure. 14:45:2725 A On June 30th, 2012? 14:45:28

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1 once the council's work is complete and the 14:46:292 university will likely need to formally respond 14:46:323 to questions raised by Dr. Emmert. 14:46:344 Q Is there any other information that NCAA 14:46:365 was actively collecting from the Freeh Group 14:46:416 other than the information you just told us? 14:46:437 A I'm -- I'm not aware of anybody else 14:46:468 communicating with the Freeh Group from within 14:46:499 inside the NCAA, so... 14:46:52

10 Q The second sentence of the press release 14:46:5411 reads -- and I will go only out to the first 14:46:5712 comma -- "Although this information will aid in 14:47:0113 our realtime review." 14:47:0314 And it goes on to talk about what will 14:47:0615 happen after Freeh is done. 14:47:0816 As of June 30, 2012, was NCAA doing a 14:47:1117 real-time review? 14:47:1418 A Yeah. I don't know if this is meant to 14:47:1819 connote real-time in terms of from the 14:47:1920 commencement of the Freeh investigation or 14:47:2321 real-time in terms of once the council's work is 14:47:2522 complete, the university likely will need to 14:47:2823 formally respond to the questions raised. 14:47:3124 I mean, it's inartfully drafted and I 14:47:3325 don't know -- I see there is a privileged part 14:47:36


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1 blocked out and I can't talk about that. 14:47:382 But in terms of looking at this here and 14:47:423 responding to your questions, you know, our 14:47:444 real-time in the context that you're describing 14:47:475 it and as you interpret this sentence, would 14:47:496 have merely been collecting information, 14:47:537 gathering information. 14:47:548 Q At this point in time, that is, June -- 14:47:569 late June 2012, was anyone at NCAA taking the 14:47:58

10 information you were learning from Freeh Group 14:48:0211 and in any way doing a review of the Penn State 14:48:0412 situation from an enforcement standpoint? 14:48:1113 A Well, the only group that handles 14:48:1414 enforcement actions, traditional enforcement 14:48:1615 actions would be enforcement. And I have no 14:48:1916 knowledge that they were engaged in their 14:48:2217 processes under the enforcement process you have 14:48:2518 just described that says enforcement action. So 14:48:2719 I don't think so. 14:48:2920 Q Was anyone at NCAA, to your knowledge, 14:48:3221 in late June 2012, taking the information you 14:48:3522 received and doing a real-time review with 14:48:3723 respect to potentially sanctioning Penn State, 14:48:4224 either within or without the formal infractions 14:48:4425 or enforcement process? 14:48:51

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1 of the enforcement process, correct? 14:49:542 A The executive committee ultimately 14:49:573 determined that it was appropriate for the 14:49:594 president of the NCAA to engage in discussions 14:50:025 with Penn State through its counsel to reach an 14:50:056 agreement about appropriate sanctions, yes. 14:50:087 Q So there are other people outside of 14:50:108 enforcement who ended up doing a review of the 14:50:139 Penn State matter in determining sanctions to 14:50:17

10 Penn State? 14:50:1911 A Well, no. Not in terms of a review. I 14:50:2012 mean, we can -- we can fast forward to that 14:50:2313 process if you would like. But I would not 14:50:2514 characterize that as a review. We talked about 14:50:2715 what the executive committee did. 14:50:3016 Let me try it this way: The information 14:50:3217 that -- that I received through the periodic 14:50:3618 telephone calls with Omar McNeill at the Freeh 14:50:3919 Group wasn't used for any purpose other than to 14:50:4220 understand the progress of that investigation 14:50:4821 and the direction of this investigation. 14:50:5122 So it wasn't provided to the enforcement 14:50:5323 staff or anybody else for the purposes of 14:50:5524 conducting any kind of review into what was 14:50:5825 happening at Penn State. 14:51:00

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1 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. I'm not 14:48:532 sure I understand, Donald. 14:48:543 THE WITNESS: You stole my line. 14:48:564 I'm not sure I understand your question. 14:48:575 Q And I didn't ask it very well. 14:48:596 You just, I believe, answered that you 14:49:017 don't know whether or to your knowledge, nobody 14:49:038 in enforcement was doing a real-time review 14:49:079 based on the information you were receiving, 14:49:10

10 correct? 14:49:1211 A I think what I said was the enforcement 14:49:1412 staff is the organizational unit within the NCAA 14:49:1613 that conducts enforcement matters, enforcement 14:49:1914 investigations that ultimately may be brought to 14:49:2215 committee on infractions. 14:49:2516 To my knowledge, they had not opened any 14:49:2717 type of investigation into Penn State at the 14:49:2918 time June 30th, 2012. 14:49:3119 Q Now, we know, and we will get there 14:49:3420 sooner rather than later, I promise, that 14:49:3721 ultimately the Sandusky matter was not treated 14:49:3922 as a traditional enforcement action, correct? 14:49:4223 A That is correct. 14:49:4524 Q And it was -- "it" being the process of 14:49:4625 sanctioning Penn State was done by folks outside 14:49:52

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1 Q And I appreciate that answer. 14:51:022 In answering it, does it cause you to 14:51:093 remember that, in fact, you were forwarding 14:51:114 information to others within NCAA beyond what 14:51:135 you remember already? I think you've testified 14:51:166 you might have said something to Dr. Emmert. 14:51:187 Do you now remember giving information 14:51:218 you received from the Freeh folks to anyone else 14:51:249 inside of NCAA? 14:51:26

10 MR. JOHNSON: I'm going to object to the 14:51:2811 form because I don't think his last answer 14:51:2912 implied that, but you can ask if he has a 14:51:3213 different memory. 14:51:3414 THE WITNESS: Well, it was my last answer 14:51:3515 that you were trying to paraphrase back; it was 14:51:3716 the answer prior to that. And I don't think I 14:51:3917 said that. 14:51:4018 What I said a couple of answers ago was 14:51:4119 that it may have been the case that from time 14:51:4320 to time in the -- in our group meetings I 14:51:4621 talked about the information that we 14:51:4922 received -- that I received on the calls with 14:51:5123 Omar McNeill. 14:51:5524 So yes, I may have had conversations 14:51:5525 from time to time with Dr. Emmert, I may have 14:51:58


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1 had conversations or may have provided 14:52:002 information in the context of our senior 14:52:023 management group or smaller group in the 14:52:054 context of those meetings. So let's just 14:52:085 make sure the record's clear about that. 14:52:106 Not for the purpose of providing a 14:52:137 report, not for the purpose of conducting a 14:52:148 review, but for the purpose of providing the 14:52:179 status update that I was receiving with -- 14:52:22

10 with respect to my conversations with the 14:52:2411 Freeh Group. 14:52:2812 Q In late June 2012, were you aware of 14:52:3013 anyone in NCAA -- I'm struggling to come up with 14:52:3314 the correct verb -- considering whether Penn 14:52:4515 State University should be sanctioned based on 14:52:5216 what was known to date about the Sandusky 14:52:5717 matter? 14:53:0118 MR. JOHNSON: That has -- depending on 14:53:0319 your answer, that question has the potential to 14:53:0520 be privileged, but right now you can answer 14:53:0621 "yes" or "no." 14:53:0822 THE WITNESS: No. 14:53:0923 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:53:1024 Q No, you don't -- to your knowledge, that 14:53:1025 was not -- 14:53:13

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1 Mr. Spanier's interview? 14:54:362 A The fact that it had occurred. 14:54:383 Q Was there any substance of what 14:54:404 questions were asked discussed with you? 14:54:425 A No. Not that I can recall. 14:54:446 Q No answers? 14:54:457 A No. 14:54:468 Q You don't -- you don't recall? 14:54:489 A I don't recall the Freeh Group ever 14:54:49

10 sharing anything. 14:54:5211 You know, I read this -- this message 14:54:5312 and I understand the direction of the questions 14:54:5513 that you likely will pose, but other than yes, 14:54:5714 we interviewed Graham Spanier, maybe not when it 14:55:0115 was contemplated but at some other point in 14:55:0516 time, I don't know when, would have been Omar's 14:55:0817 answer to this question. 14:55:1118 Q You don't recall, as you sit here today, 14:55:1219 ever being provided information of a substantive 14:55:1420 nature about what was asked or answered in 14:55:1821 interviews of witnesses? 14:55:2122 A I don't recall that. 14:55:2223 Q Do you recall being informed by the 14:55:2424 Freeh Group, either generally or specifically, 14:55:2625 about documents that were uncovered in its 14:55:30

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1 A Now I understand your question and the 14:53:142 context of the questions No 14:53:153 Q No, it wasn't happening, or no, you're 14:53:174 not aware of it happening? 14:53:195 A No, I'm not aware of it happening 14:53:226 MR HAVERSTICK: We are now on to Remy 19 14:53:247 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 19 was marked 14:53:398 for identification purposes ) 14:53:399 Q In the middle of the document, John 14:53:55

10 Barrett asks Mr McNeill what he terms a few 14:53:5811 questions And at first it's about Graham 14:54:0212 Spanier 14:54:0613 Do you recall whether Freeh Group 14:54:0814 informed you that Graham Spanier had been 14:54:1015 interviewed? 14:54:1116 A At some point in time, yes, they did 14:54:1217 Q And he uses the term "contemplated," so 14:54:1518 my assumption is in one of your periodic calls 14:54:1719 you had been briefed that he was going to be 14:54:2020 interviewed? 14:54:2221 A Yes 14:54:2222 Q Mr Barrett then asks, If so, can you, 14:54:2623 Freeh Group, share any information with us? 14:54:2924 Did Freeh Group share any information 14:54:3225 with either you or Mr Barrett about 14:54:34

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1 investigation? 14:55:332 MR. JOHNSON: So I understand your 14:55:353 questions, Matt, to mean prior to July 12, 14:55:364 prior to the release of -- 14:55:375 MR. HAVERSTICK: Correct. That's exactly 14:55:416 right. 14:55:427 Q And I think you -- you picked up on 14:55:438 that, too, Mr. Remy. We're talking -- we're 14:55:449 following along with what Mr. Barrett is asking 14:55:45

10 you here. 14:55:4711 A Yeah. I don't. I don't recall 14:55:4812 documents produced, answers given, anything of 14:55:5313 that sort. 14:55:5614 Q Do you ever recall being briefed, either 14:55:5615 generally or specifically, on some of the 14:55:5916 investigative findings of the Freeh Report prior 14:56:0117 to its release? 14:56:0418 A I was not. 14:56:0519 Q Do you recall ever being briefed or 14:56:0720 informed about whether NCAA believed it was 14:56:1021 seeing issues of a -- whether it was, through 14:56:1422 its investigation, uncovering a lack of 14:56:1823 institutional control prior to time the report 14:56:2024 was released? 14:56:2325 MR. JOHNSON: You didn't say what you 14:56:23


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1 meant in that question. 14:56:242 Can you read that back? 14:56:253 THE COURT REPORTER: Sure, but he didn't 14:56:254 finish his question. 14:56:255 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yeah, I think I tried to 14:56:256 correct it halfway through but I didn't do it 14:56:257 right. 14:56:258 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 14:56:259 record was read back by the court reporter.) 14:56:25

10 MR. JOHNSON: You meant to ask the Freeh 14:56:4611 Group -- whether the Freeh Group not the NCAA? 14:56:4612 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yes. Yes. 14:56:4913 THE WITNESS: Can you just... 14:56:5014 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:56:5015 Q I can. 14:56:5116 Prior to the Freeh Report coming out, so 14:56:5217 assume that in the question, did you ever get 14:56:5418 briefed or informed by Mr. McNeill that Freeh 14:56:5719 Group was finding a lack of institutional 14:57:0020 control in its investigation? 14:57:0421 A No, I didn't -- I never got that kind of 14:57:0622 briefing. 14:57:0823 Q No? 14:57:0924 A No. 14:57:1025 Q Mr. Barrett asks in a second question, 14:57:12

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1 THE WITNESS: No. You can read my answer 14:58:142 back. I thought I said that he said he would 14:58:153 give us 24-, 48-hours' notice before the report 14:58:164 was released. So it's about the release of the 14:58:215 report, not a copy of the report. 14:58:226 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 14:58:247 Q You never saw a draft of the report -- 14:58:248 A Absolutely not. 14:58:269 Q No -- no -- let's do it that way. 14:58:28

10 You never saw a draft of the report 14:58:2911 before it was formally released? 14:58:3112 A No. 14:58:3213 Q Did you see a final copy of the report 14:58:3314 before it was released? 14:58:3515 A No. 14:58:3616 Q Prior to report's release, were you 14:58:3617 orally briefed on what the report said, either 14:58:3818 generally or specifically? 14:58:4119 A No. 14:58:4220 Q Do you know if Mr. Barrett was? 14:58:4421 A I doubt it. 14:58:4622 Q Prior to the -- I think I asked that 14:58:5223 question. 14:58:5324 First time you saw any of the 14:59:0125 substantive conclusions of the Freeh Report was 14:59:05

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1 "Has the Freeh Group decided how and when it 14:57:142 will share its report with NCAA and Big Ten?" 14:57:163 There is no written answer to that 14:57:194 question. 14:57:245 Did you ever receive an answer to that 14:57:256 question on a call with Mr. McNeill? 14:57:267 A I think we -- we talked about the fact 14:57:318 that at some point in time on a later call he 14:57:329 confirmed that they had interviewed President 14:57:36

10 Spanier. 14:57:3811 Q But how about the answer to the question 14:57:4012 of how, when Freeh Group will share its -- 14:57:4213 A Oh, I'm sorry. I miss -- I 14:57:4614 misunderstood you. 14:57:4715 Q Yeah, I'm looking at the second one 14:57:4916 down. 14:57:4917 A Okay. Yeah, at some point in time what 14:57:5218 Mr. McNeill said was, We will give you guys 14:57:5719 48-hours' notice or 24-hours' notice or 14:58:0020 something like that before the report is 14:58:0321 released. 14:58:0422 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, that has the 14:58:0523 potential to be misunderstood. Did you mean 14:58:0724 you would get the report 48 hours in advance or 14:58:0825 notice that it was going to be released? 14:58:11

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1 when you read it after it had been distributed 14:59:082 publicly? 14:59:103 A The first time I saw any part of the 14:59:114 Freeh Report was after it had been made a public 14:59:125 document. 14:59:146 Q Is the first time you learned any of the 14:59:157 information contained in the Freeh Report when 14:59:178 you saw it after it had been released publicly? 14:59:199 A Well, we talked about witnesses that had 14:59:21

10 been interviewed, so clearly I had -- 14:59:2311 Q Right. 14:59:2412 A -- some knowledge about the fact that 14:59:2513 they had interviewed certain witnesses. 14:59:2614 But in terms of their factual findings 14:59:2815 or substantive conclusions, no. 14:59:3016 Q And I think we talked about documents 14:59:3317 and whether you became aware of any of those 14:59:3818 ahead of time. And you don't recall whether you 14:59:4019 were told -- 14:59:4320 A I do not. 14:59:4321 Q Were you given 48 hours' prior advance 14:59:5922 warning of the release of the report? 15:00:0623 A I learned about it on Twitter. 15:00:0824 Q I will ask you about Twitter later. 15:00:1225 So that's a "no"? 15:00:13


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1 A Well, I learned it about around 48 hours 15:00:152 before it was released on Twitter. 15:00:173 Q I got it. 15:00:194 After the report's release, did you have 15:00:215 another of your periodic calls with Omar and 15:00:276 John Barrett? 15:00:317 A I don't know about whether it was one of 15:00:368 the periodic calls because we call -- the 15:00:379 periodic calls were for the purposes of just 15:00:40

10 giving us updates. So then the report was 15:00:4211 released. 15:00:4412 I do have some recollection of a call 15:00:4613 after the report was released, but I wouldn't 15:00:4814 characterize it as one of the periodic calls. 15:00:5315 Q Do you know whether Ms. Roe Lach's 15:01:0016 presentation was recorded in any way? Did there 15:01:0417 exist a tape recording of it or a video 15:01:1018 recording of it that -- that may still exist? 15:01:1319 A Not that I am aware of. I don't think 15:01:1620 it was -- it was done that way. 15:01:1821 As I indicated, it was either one of 15:01:1922 those Meet-Me lines, or maybe it was we provided 15:01:2123 the slides and then they walked through them. I 15:01:2424 don't remember what the technology was. It 15:01:2825 wasn't a recorded presentation. 15:01:31

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1 Q You would -- don't know one way or the 15:02:472 other whether it happened? 15:02:483 A Yeah, I don't -- I don't remember that, 15:02:494 is, I guess, what I'm saying 15:02:515 MR HAVERSTICK: Kip? 15:03:006 MR JOHNSON: Is this a good time to take 15:03:037 a break? 15:03:048 MR HAVERSTICK: Yeah, for maybe five or 15:03:079 ten minutes because I'm about to shift gears 15:03:07

10 into -- into a new world 15:03:0911 MR JOHNSON: Are we done with three? 15:03:1312 MR HAVERSTICK: I believe that we are, 15:03:1613 yeah I just -- that's why I want to take five 15:03:1714 minutes I think -- I think that we're -- I 15:03:1915 think I'm done with it 15:03:1916 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Now ending Video 3 15:03:2217 We're now off the record at 15:01 15:03:2318 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken ) 15:03:2619 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins Media 4 in 15:20:5920 the videotaped deposition of Donald Remy We 15:21:0121 are now on the record at 15:19 15:21:0422 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 15:21:0723 Q Mr Remy, I want to pivot now and talk 15:21:1224 about post Freeh Report stuff And I'm not 15:21:1625 going to recite all the testimony I think you 15:21:26

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1 Q It wasn't transcribed? 15:01:332 A No. 15:01:353 Q Are you aware of whether after the Freeh 15:01:374 Report was issued that Dr. Emmert and Judge 15:01:425 Freeh met? 15:01:466 A I know that there was an attempt to have 15:01:497 them have a phone call, but I don't know whether 15:01:518 it ever occurred. 15:01:549 Q Do you -- do you know why President 15:01:55

10 Emmert would have wanted to talk to Judge Freeh? 15:01:5911 MR. JOHNSON: So it is possible that in 15:02:0412 answering that question you could be revealing 15:02:0513 communications between yourself and President 15:02:0714 Emmert. And if so, let's think about whether 15:02:0915 that could be privileged. 15:02:1216 THE WITNESS: It's not, because the answer 15:02:1517 is no, I don't know -- I don't know why. 15:02:1618 Q You don't know? 15:02:1919 Are you aware of whether in 2012 NCAA 15:02:2320 was being solicited by the Freeh Group for Freeh 15:02:2921 Group to do investigative work for NCAA in 15:02:3222 enforcement actions? 15:02:3623 A I don't have -- I don't recall that. 15:02:4024 Q No? 15:02:4525 A No. 15:02:45

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1 gave prior to this to get up to the Freeh 15:21:282 Report, but I want to make sure I understand a 15:21:293 lot of what we discussed earlier today. 15:21:324 The education that NCAA provided to 15:21:375 Freeh Group was to assist in Freeh Group's 15:21:416 evaluation of responses to the four questions 15:21:497 posed in the letter? I mean, is that mostly 15:21:538 right? 15:21:569 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. 15:21:57

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Again, I describe it a 15:21:5811 little differently. The education that was 15:22:0012 provided was to help the Freeh Group understand 15:22:0213 how the NCAA traditionally thought about the 15:22:0614 issues of institutional control and unethical 15:22:0915 conduct, because those issues appeared in the 15:22:1216 questions that we had provided to Penn State. 15:22:1617 So as they conducted their investigation, they 15:22:1818 would have a framework to understand how we 15:22:2119 think about those things. How they used it was 15:22:2320 entirely up to them. 15:22:2721 And then, ultimately, we were going to 15:22:2822 expect Penn State to use that information, if 15:22:2923 it was in the Freeh Report, they had gathered 15:22:3224 to provide answers to the questions. 15:22:3525


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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:22:362 Q And, indeed, if I remember one of the 15:22:373 exhibits right, there was even early 15:22:404 contemplation with Cynthia Baldwin that her 15:22:425 response to Dr. Emmert's letter be phrased 15:22:476 carefully so that one could not draw a 15:22:517 conclusion that the Freeh Report was going to be 15:22:548 sort of the answer to the four questions. 15:22:569 A Again, I wouldn't say "be phrased 15:22:58

10 carefully." But I want to say that it was 15:23:0011 designed to accurately reflect how we perceive 15:23:0112 the appropriate manner to move forward. 15:23:0513 Q Why -- and I expect counsel is going to 15:23:1014 caution you to think about this one. 15:23:1715 Why, after the Freeh Report, did NCAA 15:23:1816 not require Penn State to respond in writing to 15:23:2217 the four questions? 15:23:2518 MR. JOHNSON: You might be able to answer 15:23:2719 that by talking about your conversations with 15:23:2820 Penn State, in which case there is no issue 15:23:3021 there. 15:23:3322 THE WITNESS: If you don't mind me giving 15:23:3523 you a long answer to a short question, I can -- 15:23:3724 I can walk you through that, because there's a 15:23:4025 complicated response to it that involves many 15:23:43

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1 A The communication from the NCAA to 15:24:402 Penn State was, once the report comes out and we 15:24:413 all have an opportunity to read it, you will 15:24:454 have an opportunity to read it. Then you will 15:24:465 be in a better position to the respond to the 15:24:496 questions. So that's what we thought. 15:24:527 When the report was released, one of the 15:24:548 first things that happened, as I recall, was the 15:24:579 Penn State Board of Trustees, on the day of the 15:25:00

10 release, indicated that they took full 15:25:0311 responsibility for the findings in the 15:25:0712 Freeh Report that delineated some of the 15:25:0913 failures that had occurred on Penn State's 15:25:1114 campus. 15:25:1415 So just to put it in context, that 15:25:1416 occurred almost simultaneously with the release 15:25:1717 of the report. So you have, then, that 15:25:2018 knowledge that the trustees, after having 15:25:2319 reviewed presumably and read the report, are 15:25:2620 taking responsibility for those failures that 15:25:2821 are articulated in the report. 15:25:3122 With that information, we then moved 15:25:3423 forward to determine, how are we going to deal 15:25:3624 with Penn State's response to the questions and 15:25:4025 how are we going to move forward. 15:25:43

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1 different parts. 15:23:472 So once the Freeh Report was released 15:23:483 and we had an opportunity to read it and 15:23:534 review it, we were thinking about what our 15:23:565 next steps would be. If you recall, through 15:24:006 some of the documents, some you haven't 15:24:047 presented to me, others you may present to me 15:24:068 later on, before the Freeh Report was 15:24:089 released, when we learned of its impending 15:24:11

10 release -- meaning a couple of days out, it 15:24:1511 was going to be released -- we started 15:24:1612 thinking about, what are our next steps going 15:24:1713 to be? 15:24:1914 And one of the things that we had 15:24:1915 communicated back to Penn State was, once 15:24:2116 this comes out, we will be expecting that you 15:24:2417 provide answers to those four questions. 15:24:2718 So -- 15:24:3119 Q I'm sorry. "We" -- 15:24:3120 A We, the NCAA. 15:24:3321 Q Right. Okay. Now, we're not talking 15:24:3422 about specific groups of people sitting around 15:24:3523 talking about this yet. 15:24:3724 A No. 15:24:3825 Q You're thinking "we," NCAA. 15:24:38

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1 And I can't give you dates and times, 15:25:472 because I don't recall that specifically, but I 15:25:493 know that at that time -- if you go back to when 15:25:524 the public notice came out that the report was 15:25:565 going to be issued, I had a conversation with -- 15:25:596 by that time Cynthia Baldwin was probably gone, 15:26:017 and there was some interim -- 15:26:048 Q Faulkner? 15:26:079 A Yes. That's probably his name. And 15:26:08

10 some other lawyers that were on that call -- it 15:26:0911 may have even been Frank Guadagnino -- that we 15:26:1112 were going to be expecting answers to the 15:26:1413 questions. 15:26:1714 After the report came out, I think we 15:26:1815 actually even said that. We said, "Now we have 15:26:2116 the report. Penn State can provide answers to 15:26:2317 these questions." So that was the thinking, 15:26:2618 going into it. 15:26:2719 Later on that same week, I received a 15:26:3120 call from Gene Marsh, indicating that he was 15:26:3521 representing Penn State in connection with their 15:26:3922 response to the questions. That was his first 15:26:4323 communication to me. I think he was going off 15:26:4624 on vacation, left a voice mail, or something, 15:26:4825 saying, "Hey, I'm Gene Marsh. Penn State's 15:26:50


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1 hired me. I'm going to help them with our 15:26:532 response to these questions. I might not be 15:26:553 available over the weekend" -- because I 15:26:594 remember it was a weekend. He was traveling -- 15:27:005 but, you know, "Let's try to get together soon." 15:27:026 I responded back to him. We didn't 15:27:047 connect. I think I may have even left a voice 15:27:068 mail, "Thanks. Great to meet you. Look forward 15:27:089 to working with you," talking about how to 15:27:11

10 answer the questions. 15:27:1311 But given that Penn State's Board of 15:27:1512 Trustees had taken responsibility for the 15:27:1813 actions in the Freeh Report, I think 15:27:2114 conversations were had -- and I don't know the 15:27:2515 exact time or where -- over the course of that 15:27:2716 weekend between Dr. Emmert and Dr. Erickson 15:27:3017 about answering the questions and how we were 15:27:3718 going to go about answering the questions. 15:27:4019 And my recollection is, during those 15:27:4220 conversations, the concept came up -- don't know 15:27:4521 from whom, whether it was Dr. Emmert or 15:27:4822 Dr. Erickson -- that there might be another way 15:27:5123 to move this thing forward and get it behind us 15:27:5324 all, given that Penn State's Board of Trustees 15:27:5625 had already said, "We take responsibility for 15:28:00

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1 that about right? 15:29:322 A I don't know that I would characterize 15:29:323 it as "spontaneous," because I can't speak for 15:29:334 what was in either of those individual's minds 15:29:365 at the time, or anybody else's. 15:29:386 What I would say is -- and what I'm 15:29:417 trying to make clear is -- I don't know how the 15:29:448 idea originated, who first thought of it. I 15:29:459 know that in my early conversations with -- with 15:29:51

10 Marsh, it was an idea that we began to explore. 15:29:5311 Q Prior to you learning about Dr. Emmert's 15:29:5712 call with Dr. Erickson, had anyone in NCAA, up 15:30:0113 to that point, discussed the possibility that 15:30:0414 the four questions could be dispensed with and 15:30:0615 there be another mechanism to resolve 15:30:0816 Penn State's discipline issues? 15:30:1117 MR. JOHNSON: Donald, if your answer to 15:30:1518 that would be yes, consider whether the 15:30:1619 conversation was privileged or not, and we'll 15:30:1820 talk about that. 15:30:2021 THE WITNESS: I'm am just trying to think 15:30:2422 of the time frame here, because I think this is 15:30:3323 really important to understand the sequence. 15:30:3524 And the answer probably is yes, that there were 15:30:3825 thoughts around, how are we going to deal with 15:30:43

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1 the information in the Freeh Report." 15:28:032 So, from that point on, we started 15:28:053 having a discussion around what alternative 15:28:084 ways -- when I say "we," I mean, just generally, 15:28:125 we, myself and Gene Marsh and David Berst, who 15:28:166 was part of that -- what alternative mechanisms 15:28:227 might be appropriate to move this along more 15:28:258 quickly. 15:28:289 Q So I appreciate that narrative. It's 15:28:30

10 quite helpful. 15:28:3411 Several questions pop into my head, 15:28:3712 though, as a result of it. So let me sort of 15:28:4013 work through them in my mind seriatim. 15:28:4214 So your understanding of the genesis of 15:28:4815 the notion that the four questions would not 15:28:5616 have to be answered came from a conversation you 15:28:5817 had with Dr. Emmert? 15:29:0118 A My understanding came from, yes, a 15:29:0519 conversation with Dr. Emmert about a 15:29:1020 conversation that he had with Dr. Erickson. 15:29:1321 Q And if I understand your testimony about 15:29:1522 the Erickson-Emmert conversation, somebody, it 15:29:1923 sounds, spontaneously came up with the idea, 15:29:2524 "Well, maybe we don't actually need to answer 15:29:2725 the questions. Can we do something else"? Is 15:29:29

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1 this information that we now have that is laid 15:30:482 out in the Freeh Report? Do we have them 15:30:503 answer the questions, as we have indicated we 15:30:554 are expecting, or is there -- or is there 15:30:565 information enough in this Freeh Report to 15:31:006 commence an enforcement investigation? Or is 15:31:027 there some other way to go about handling or 15:31:068 dealing with all the information that we now 15:31:099 have? 15:31:11

10 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:31:1111 Q I'm going to ask these questions 15:31:1212 gingerly so that we -- we don't get tripped up 15:31:1413 on privilege issues. 15:31:1914 Following the release of the 15:31:2215 Freeh Report, there were internal meetings among 15:31:2416 the folks that we called "senior staff"; is that 15:31:2717 right? In the immediate -- say, in the 15:31:2918 immediate couple or -- couple or three days 15:31:3319 after the report came out. 15:31:3520 A And thereafter, yes. 15:31:3821 Q Sure. 15:31:3922 A There were several meetings, sometimes 15:31:3923 twice a day. 15:31:4224 Q Is it at those meetings that folks are 15:31:4525 beginning to -- I love this word -- socialize 15:31:49


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1 the idea of different approaches to dealing with 15:31:552 the Penn State issue in the Freeh Report? 15:31:573 A Is that a Kip word? 15:32:024 Q No. 15:32:045 MR. JOHNSON: Socialize. Socialist. 15:32:066 I think Matt's right to alert us to the 15:32:087 reason to be careful around here, Donald. 15:32:108 So -- and I'm also mindful of Judge Covey's 15:32:139 order about what could be privileged and what 15:32:15

10 isn't. So you should exclude from your 15:32:1911 answer communications to you or by you that 15:32:2312 were for the purpose of giving legal advice. 15:32:2813 If there are other communications that 15:32:3314 you recall in these meetings not for that 15:32:3415 purpose, you can describe those. Does that 15:32:3616 make sense? 15:32:4217 THE WITNESS: I hear your explanation. 15:32:4318 I'm trying to be helpful. So let me offer to 15:32:4419 the both of you my way of thinking about this, 15:32:4920 because the reality is in many, if not -- most, 15:32:5221 if not all, of those meetings subsequent to the 15:32:5622 Freeh Report, in my mind, they were designed to 15:33:0023 provide me information so that I could provide 15:33:0524 legal advice to the association and ascertain 15:33:0925 how I would engage with Penn State's counsel. 15:33:13

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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:34:272 Q Let me ask -- and I may get to that, and 15:34:283 I am interested in hearing your evaluation of 15:34:324 it. Let me try to ask some specific questions. 15:34:355 And if you can, we can get the answers. And if 15:34:376 we can't, we can't. 15:34:427 In these early -- first of all, when was 15:34:448 it decided that you would be the person who 15:34:469 would be representing NCAA in negotiating with 15:34:48

10 Penn State's counsel? 15:34:5411 A I think that is a natural role for 15:34:5612 general counsel, so probably at the very 15:34:5813 beginning. 15:35:0014 You know, I was also accompanied by 15:35:0015 Dave Berst, because of his wealth and knowledge 15:35:0416 and expertise, at the association. 15:35:0617 Q When was it decided that Ms. Roe would 15:35:0718 not participate in those conversations? 15:35:0919 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. 15:35:1520 THE WITNESS: Well, as we know, she didn't 15:35:1621 participate in those conversations. And as, I 15:35:1722 think our conversation just established, I was 15:35:1923 the natural person to do that, as the general 15:35:2124 counsel. 15:35:2325

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1 So I'd have a really hard time, to the 15:33:172 extent that I remember what anybody said at 15:33:193 any particular meeting, deciphering between 15:33:224 what was privileged and what wasn't, because, 15:33:265 from my perspective, the purpose of the 15:33:296 meeting, for me, really was to gather legal 15:33:317 advice. 15:33:368 So let me offer this in trying to help 15:33:379 go through this, because I'm not going to 15:33:40

10 remember every meeting on every day or 15:33:4211 everything that any particular person said, 15:33:4412 and oftentimes those things were said to me 15:33:4613 at my request to gather information so I 15:33:4914 would understand, from the experts within the 15:33:5215 organization, how to analyze these issues and 15:33:5516 how to advise the NCAA and how to engage with 15:33:5917 Penn State's counsel. 15:34:0218 So, without sharing that back-and-forth, 15:34:0519 I can share with you how I think about this 15:34:0820 stuff and what I was thinking as I was going 15:34:1421 through the process of evaluating what the 15:34:2022 options are, without saying, "This is what I 15:34:2323 said to somebody" or "This is what somebody 15:34:2624 said to me." 15:34:2725

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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:35:232 Q But that doesn't answer my question. 15:35:253 When was it decided that Ms. Roe would 15:35:274 not participate in your and Mr. Berst's 15:35:295 negotiations with -- and it ended up being 15:35:356 Mr. Marsh. 15:35:387 MR. JOHNSON: I just object to the form, 15:35:398 because it implies that some decision was 15:35:399 made -- 15:35:42

10 THE WITNESS: Well -- and that's what I 15:35:4211 tried to answer the first time. I apologize 15:35:4412 for being inartful. But that wasn't the 15:35:4513 decision. The decision was, who's going to 15:35:4614 engage? And that was me and Dave Berst. 15:35:4815 What's implied in your question, I 15:35:5416 think, is why was Ms. Roe not part of that 15:35:5517 negotiation team? 15:36:0018 And I think a natural answer to that 15:36:0119 was, because we were engaging with counsel to 15:36:0420 Penn State and we were talking about 15:36:0821 something that would likely be outside of the 15:36:1022 enforcement process. And so Ms. Roe wouldn't 15:36:1423 have been a natural person to have that 15:36:1824 conversation but, rather, I would and Dave 15:36:2025 Berst, along with me, because of his 15:36:23


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1 knowledge of the organization. 15:36:252 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:36:263 Q So by the time that Mr. Berst 15:36:274 materialized in the discussions, safe to say 15:36:335 that NCAA had concluded that this was not going 15:36:366 to be an enforcement action, by virtue of your 15:36:397 answer that Ms. Roe was not included? 15:36:428 MR. JOHNSON: Object to form. 15:36:459 You can answer. 15:36:45

10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And, again, I don't 15:36:4611 want to rephrase everything that you say, but I 15:36:4712 do want to be clear and make sure that the 15:36:4913 record's clear about these points, because I 15:36:5114 think it's very important. 15:36:5415 There was always an option to go down 15:36:5716 the enforcement path, but the letter that 15:37:0017 Dr. Emmert sent to Dr. Erickson, back in 15:37:0518 November, was not an enforcement letter. It 15:37:0719 was a letter from a president to a president, 15:37:1020 soliciting additional information. The 15:37:1121 communications around that letter occurred 15:37:1422 between me and Cynthia Baldwin and then 15:37:1723 general counsel of Penn State. And 15:37:2024 subsequent, her reports and -- status reports 15:37:2425 came through me -- to me from the 15:37:27

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1 A I think that's fair. 15:38:252 Q Why, then, was Ms. Roe involved in your 15:38:273 December and January educational sessions with 15:38:314 Freeh Group? 15:38:365 A That was -- that was before the 15:38:396 Freeh Report was released. 15:38:407 Q Right. 15:38:428 A Yeah. So at that point in time, we were 15:38:439 providing information -- I think we've gone 15:38:45

10 through this before -- to the Freeh Group so 15:38:4611 that they could evaluate this, based upon the 15:38:4912 four questions that were asked. 15:38:5113 And she and her staff were 15:38:5214 subject-matter experts around that area in terms 15:38:5415 of how the NCAA looked at those questions, so 15:38:5616 she would be the natural person to provide 15:39:0017 information to the Freeh Group about the 15:39:0218 ordinary and standard practices of the NCAA in 15:39:0719 evaluating those issues. 15:39:1020 Not sure I'm entirely following you. 15:39:1321 Q In that December-January time frame, you 15:39:1522 were the person who involved Ms. Roe in the 15:39:2223 conversations with the Freeh Group? 15:39:2524 MR. JOHNSON: Object to form. 15:39:2825 THE WITNESS: We talked about this a 15:39:28

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1 Freeh Group. 15:37:302 So the natural extension of that would 15:37:313 be, I would still be on point as that -- at 15:37:334 that point we were looking at, how do we 15:37:365 respond to those questions or, if we're going 15:37:376 to do something other than require a response 15:37:397 to the questions that's not an enforcement 15:37:438 action, how would we go about doing that. 15:37:469 So yes, the negotiation team would 15:37:49

10 naturally have been me and Dave Berst and not 15:37:5111 Julie Roe, because Julie Roe participating in 15:37:5512 that would suggest we're going to have an 15:37:5713 enforcement action. 15:37:5914 So it's not that we hadn't decided or we 15:38:0015 decided at that point that we would not do an 15:38:0216 enforcement action. It's that we were 15:38:0517 evaluating and exploring a different path. 15:38:0618 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:38:1019 Q Let me say it -- let me ask my question 15:38:1220 another way and see if we agree on it. 15:38:1421 When you began negotiating with 15:38:1622 Gene Marsh, your primary mode at that point was 15:38:1823 to find a solution outside the enforcement 15:38:2024 process. Is that a fair way to say what you're 15:38:2225 saying? 15:38:24

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1 little bit before. I don't -- and you laughed 15:39:302 and said it happened organically, or maybe that 15:39:323 was a different question. 15:39:364 But, yeah, Julie was the natural person, 15:39:375 and her staff, to talk about these issues. 15:39:386 So to the extent that I was the point of 15:39:417 contact, I would have been the person that 15:39:428 provided the information through the expert 15:39:479 at the NCAA, who was -- who was Julie Roe and 15:39:50

10 her staff. 15:39:5211 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:39:5312 Q At that time, meaning December-January, 15:39:5313 did you view Penn State's answering of the four 15:39:5914 questions to likely result in a different 15:40:0315 mode -- that is, an enforcement mode? 15:40:0616 MR. JOHNSON: Objection. 15:40:1017 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:40:1018 Q Do you understand my question? 15:40:1019 A I do understand your question. Didn't 15:40:1120 know one way or another. That's why we needed 15:40:1321 the information in the questions, to make a 15:40:1422 judgment as to what the next steps might be. 15:40:1623 Q Back in December and January, then, was 15:40:2024 one of the possibilities considered, depending 15:40:2325 on the outcome of the Freeh Report, a solution 15:40:27


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1 similar to the one that you and Mr. Berst 15:40:322 pursued with Mr. Marsh? 15:40:353 A I think we talked about this too. 15:40:384 Back then we weren't thinking about any 15:40:395 potential solutions. We were thinking about, 15:40:416 how can we provide information that would be 15:40:427 helpful to the Freeh Group in gathering data 15:40:458 that would be helpful to Penn State to answer 15:40:489 the questions? 15:40:50

10 We weren't thinking about, are we going 15:40:5011 to conduct an enforcement investigation? Are we 15:40:5312 going to have some alternative solution? 15:40:5513 We were thinking about, how do we get 15:40:5614 the information to Penn State that's necessary 15:40:5915 to respond so that we can then figure out how to 15:41:0116 move forward? 15:41:0417 Q In your conversations, your core group 15:41:0618 conversations, in those couple days after the 15:41:1119 report, that, you know, we're talking about and 15:41:1420 you said that you were receiving information to 15:41:1521 give legal advice, do you recall whether anyone 15:41:1822 in those conversations broached the idea of the 15:41:2123 mechanism that ultimately became the consent 15:41:2724 degree? 15:41:3025 MR. JOHNSON: So, Donald, just so we'll be 15:41:32

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1 If, during those meetings, somebody 15:42:462 said, "Hey, I think this," and somebody else 15:42:493 said, "Hey, I think that," and they had an 15:42:524 exchange between one another, I don't know 15:42:555 that I remember things that specifically, 15:42:586 because, you know, they were collaborative 15:42:597 conversations to gather information to figure 15:43:038 out the association's position. 15:43:069 So if -- rather than saying who said 15:43:10

10 what, or what I said, or what I might have 15:43:1611 asked or how things happened, if I could 15:43:2012 maybe offer this is how I thought about it -- 15:43:2513 I don't know -- these are the things that I 15:43:3114 was thinking in my mind, I don't know if that 15:43:3415 gets us out of this privilege box. 15:43:3616 MR. JOHNSON: It might get us into a 15:43:3917 work-product box. 15:43:4018 MR. HAVERSTICK: I think it's -- 15:43:4219 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15:43:4220 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:43:4321 Q Yeah. And I'm happy to entertain that, 15:43:4422 although we'd have -- your counsel would have to 15:43:4523 think about that with you. 15:43:4924 Is it your testimony -- because we can 15:43:5125 skip a lot of this questioning if we establish 15:43:53

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1 careful through this, we're talking about the 15:41:342 conversations that you have described as 15:41:353 generally having the purpose of you gathering 15:41:374 information. 15:41:395 So I think you can answer this question 15:41:406 if you believe that there are communications 15:41:427 that you recall which were not part of that 15:41:448 purpose. 15:41:469 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, I tried to 15:41:50

10 give you guys an avenue that, I think, might be 15:41:5211 helpful to provide some information that's 15:41:5512 useful in this context. In the context of 15:41:5713 those meetings and the information that was 15:42:0014 being provided to me in the analysis that I was 15:42:0315 doing, I view that as soliciting information to 15:42:0716 provide legal advice and kind of work product. 15:42:1217 And so, as I sit here today and I think 15:42:1518 about how those meetings occurred, if I were 15:42:1919 to ask person X, "What do you think about Y," 15:42:2320 and they said, "This is what I think about 15:42:2921 Y," as I think through that, that process was 15:42:3022 designed for me to get information so that I 15:42:3523 could formulate the organization's legal 15:42:3724 advice and legal opinion and legal direction, 15:42:4125 strategic legal direction. 15:42:44

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1 it. And we may not agree, but we can establish 15:43:552 it. 15:43:573 Is it your testimony -- let me ask a 15:43:574 foundational questions. 15:44:005 Earlier today you testified that these 15:44:026 meetings, in general, were, as you said, 15:44:057 collaborative. Right? 15:44:098 A Right. 15:44:119 Q People came with -- 15:44:12

10 MR. JOHNSON: Lower your hands from your 15:44:1511 mouth. 15:44:1612 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 15:44:1613 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:44:1714 Q The folks in the meeting came with a 15:44:1715 particular expertise, a particular viewpoint, 15:44:1916 and everybody got together and talked out ideas. 15:44:2117 A So earlier today, we were talking about 15:44:2418 what happened after the Sandusky indictment and 15:44:2719 the preparation of the November 17 letter. Now 15:44:3020 we're talking about what happened after the 15:44:3321 Freeh Report came out and how we were going 15:44:3622 to -- how I was going to advise the association 15:44:3923 and how we were going to engage with Penn State. 15:44:4324 There are two different sets of meetings. 15:44:4625 Q Okay. 15:44:48


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1 A That's all -- I mean, it may be the same 15:44:482 set of people. There may be additional people 15:44:513 that were in there, or not. But there are two 15:44:524 different sets of meetings that, in my mind, had 15:44:545 two different purposes. 15:44:566 Q But are they functioning the same way, 15:44:577 or are they functioning differently? 15:45:008 A They're functioning similarly, but not 15:45:039 the same way, because at the end of the day, 15:45:09

10 part of the functioning of that group dynamic 15:45:1211 was for me to have information to provide legal 15:45:1812 advice. 15:45:2113 Q Was that the entire purpose of these 15:45:2214 meetings? 15:45:2415 A It was the primary purpose of the 15:45:2616 meetings, in my mind. 15:45:3017 Q Is it your testimony that if, in these 15:45:3218 meetings, meaning the post Freeh Report 15:45:3719 meetings, two of your colleagues began a 15:45:3920 back-and-forth about different ways to proceed, 15:45:4121 not in response to a question from you, but sort 15:45:4622 of sua sponte -- is it your testimony that that 15:45:4923 still is information that you would consider 15:45:5424 privileged because that was part of what was 15:45:5625 factoring in your thinking about what to do? 15:46:02

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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:47:142 Q Do you recall in these meetings anyone 15:47:143 advocating for using the traditional enforcement 15:47:214 process? 15:47:245 MR. JOHNSON: I think, by putting the 15:47:256 content in the question, you make the answer 15:47:267 hard. And I'm not sure I have a better idea, 15:47:298 but maybe -- what I'm suggesting -- and tell me 15:47:339 to shut up if I'm not being helpful -- what I'm 15:47:38

10 suggesting is if you ask Donald if he has 15:47:4011 any -- and I'm really thinking about Judge 15:47:4112 Covey's order -- if he can attribute a 15:47:4413 particular thought to a particular person, if 15:47:4814 the answer is yes, then we will have to decide 15:47:4915 whether that was privileged or not privileged. 15:47:5216 If the answer is no, then you couldn't reveal 15:47:5317 the communication if you wanted to. Does that 15:47:5618 make sense? 15:47:5819 MR. HAVERSTICK: I mean, that's one way to 15:47:5920 go. I may be able to dispense with it with the 15:48:0021 topic matters. I mean, he answered the 15:48:0422 question with respect to the consent decree and 15:48:0623 said yes, and I'm not pursuing it any further 15:48:0724 because I assume if I ask him who said what, we 15:48:0725 are no longer able to -- 15:48:11

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1 MR. JOHNSON: Or what was being 15:46:042 communicated to him. 15:46:063 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. The 15:46:074 challenge there, though, is, I can't give you 15:46:095 specific chapter and verse of who said what to 15:46:146 whom and when. So I'm not going to be able to 15:46:177 tell you on this day, these two people had 15:46:218 these ideas or this one had that idea, so -- 15:46:239 MR. JOHNSON: Can I offer a suggestion? 15:46:26

10 MR. HAVERSTICK: Sure. 15:46:2911 MR. JOHNSON: This is where I was going to 15:46:2912 kind of go. It may well be that we're laying a 15:46:3013 foundation for something he doesn't recall, and 15:46:3314 so it might be fruitful to ask him, whether 15:46:3815 privileged or not, does he have any specific 15:46:4216 recollection of what -- anything anybody said. 15:46:4417 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:46:4718 Q And, look -- and that's a fair question. 15:46:4819 Do you recall -- I'm going to ask it 15:46:5120 specifically. Do you recall anyone discussing 15:46:5321 the option of something like the consent decree 15:46:5622 as a way to move forward? 15:47:0323 A I think that I answered that question, 15:47:0524 and the answer is yes. 15:47:0625 (Clarification by the court reporter.) 15:47:14

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1 MR. JOHNSON: I am asking you to pursue it 15:48:132 one question further; and that is, do you 15:48:163 remember who said what? 15:48:184 MR. HAVERSTICK: All right. 15:48:195 MR. JOHNSON: And that way, if we end up 15:48:196 in a dispute -- 15:48:197 MR. HAVERSTICK: Okay. 15:48:198 MR. JOHNSON: -- you will know whether at 15:48:209 least there's something he's not telling you. 15:48:20

10 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:48:2211 Q Do you remember -- let's go back to the 15:48:2212 consent-decree question. Do you remember who 15:48:2313 specifically advocated -- who specifically 15:48:2814 discussed the possibility of a 15:48:3115 consent-decree-type option as a way to move 15:48:3416 forward? 15:48:3717 A Yes. 15:48:3818 Q Do you -- can you identify that person 15:48:4119 without -- 15:48:4320 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I think by putting the 15:48:4421 content in the question, it reveals the 15:48:4622 communication. 15:48:4723 I think probably the answer is, Donald, 15:48:4824 if it is your view that the communication 15:48:4925 that you're recalling was part of the larger 15:48:52


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1 purpose of advising the organization, I would 15:48:582 probably instruct you not to answer further 15:49:013 on that -- on that point. 15:49:034 MR. HAVERSTICK: Then -- and I will -- 15:49:055 again, for today I'll accept that instruction, 15:49:066 understanding that we'll figure out how we're 15:49:107 going to deal with this down the road. 15:49:128 MR. JOHNSON: Sure. Can I interrupt you 15:49:149 just a minute? 15:49:15

10 MR. HAVERSTICK: Yeah. 15:49:1511 MR. JOHNSON: I don't want you to move on 15:49:1612 without knowing that there are meetings that 15:49:1713 occurred that he does not ascribe this purpose 15:49:1914 to -- for example, the executive committee 15:49:2215 meetings. And there he can testify much more 15:49:2416 freely. 15:49:2617 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:49:2618 Q Okay. I want to ask you the same very 15:49:2619 structured question with respect to, instead of 15:49:2920 consent decree as an option, the traditional 15:49:3321 enforcement paradigm as the option. Was that 15:49:3622 discussed by anyone during your meetings as a 15:49:4023 way to go? 15:49:4424 MR. JOHNSON: You can answer "yes" or 15:49:4625 "no." 15:49:46

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1 ideas? 15:50:552 A Author connotes that they were written, 15:50:573 and I don't think everything was ever written. 15:50:594 MR. JOHNSON: Speaker. 15:51:035 THE WITNESS: This is the same series of 15:51:056 questions. I want to find a way to get you the 15:51:067 information that you're -- 15:51:098 MR. JOHNSON: Well, answer that. Then 15:51:109 I'll instruct you -- then I'll suggest 15:51:10

10 something that could help. 15:51:1111 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15:51:1412 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:51:1413 Q Okay. And he's instructed you not to 15:51:1414 answer. 15:51:1615 Without revealing work product, if you 15:51:2116 discuss with us what was discussed in the 15:51:2317 executive committee meetings, can you give a 15:51:2618 fuller recitation of some of the ideas that were 15:51:2919 on the table, at least before the executive 15:51:3120 committee? 15:51:3421 MR. JOHNSON: So if you -- if I can 15:51:3522 persuade you to rephrase that slightly, I think 15:51:3623 he can give you exactly what you're looking 15:51:3824 for. 15:51:4125 I don't want him to discuss 15:51:41

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15:49:472 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:49:473 Q Do you remember who it was who discussed 15:49:494 that? 15:49:515 MR. JOHNSON: So I think, just for 15:49:526 consistency, I would instruct him not to 15:49:537 answer. 15:49:558 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:49:569 Q Okay. Then, last question: Do you 15:49:56

10 recall anyone in these meetings having a 15:49:5911 solution that was neither the traditional 15:50:0212 enforcement mechanism nor a consent-decree-like 15:50:0513 proposal, in other words, some third, or 15:50:1114 alternate, way? 15:50:1415 A I don't know that I would characterize 15:50:1516 it as having a solution. There were ideas that 15:50:1617 were discussed about how to move forward post 15:50:2318 receipt of and review of the Freeh Report, and 15:50:2619 there were many ideas that were discussed in 15:50:3020 that context. 15:50:3421 And some of those ideas were other than 15:50:3622 the -- what ultimately became the consent decree 15:50:3823 or whether or not an enforcement action would 15:50:4424 move forward at some point in time. 15:50:4625 Q Do you recall the authors of those other 15:50:50

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1 communications, and I don't want -- but if 15:51:432 you ask him to generally describe what he 15:51:433 thought the organization's options were at 15:51:464 that time, I think he can tell you the answer 15:51:495 to that question. 15:51:526 MR. HAVERSTICK: Okay. And do I -- are we 15:51:537 limiting this to -- well, actually -- 15:51:548 MR. JOHNSON: I bet you can go to the 15:51:579 executive committee and ask him whatever you 15:51:58

10 want. 15:52:0011 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:52:0012 Q All right. Go ahead, then. If you can 15:52:0013 answer that question, please do. 15:52:0214 A Isn't that what I said ten minutes ago? 15:52:0415 MR. JOHNSON: We're lawyers. 15:52:0716 THE WITNESS: Pose the question. 15:52:1217 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:52:1318 Q What was your understanding, at that 15:52:1319 point in time, of the options on the table, were 15:52:1520 available to NCAA? 15:52:1821 A So, again, without revealing any 15:52:2122 communications that I provided to other 15:52:2323 individuals that reflected my legal advice, and 15:52:2624 without revealing any communications that they 15:52:2925 provided to me, reflecting the information that 15:52:32


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1 might be work product or solicitation on legal 15:52:362 advice, I believe that there were a number of 15:52:383 options that could be considered under a 15:52:444 circumstance similar to this. 15:52:485 Those options could range anywhere from 15:52:516 utilizing the process in the constitution for 15:52:587 expulsion from the membership, to discussing and 15:53:018 reaching an agreement as to how the parties 15:53:089 would move forward, that contain some semblance 15:53:12

10 of penalties, and some process for moving 15:53:1711 forward, to having the questions actually 15:53:2012 answered and then evaluating what the next step 15:53:2613 might be, to pursuing the traditional 15:53:3014 enforcement process, and if the enforcement 15:53:3615 staff thought that there was enough to 15:53:3916 investigate, conduct an investigation and take 15:53:4117 it to the Committee on Infractions, to, I 15:53:4318 suppose, doing nothing at all. 15:53:4819 Any of those things could be evaluated 15:53:5220 under a circumstance similar to the circumstance 15:53:5521 that was being presented as a result of the 15:53:5822 information that was provided in the 15:54:0123 Freeh Report. 15:54:0324 Q Were any of those ideas ones that were 15:54:0425 not discussed in your core group sessions? 15:54:06

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1 just by fiat almost? 15:55:172 A I don't know that I would characterize 15:55:213 it "by fiat" -- 15:55:214 Q Of course not. 15:55:225 A -- but under the authorities that the 15:55:226 association has and under the authorities vested 15:55:247 in the executive committee, whether or not they 15:55:288 can move forward with an imposition of 15:55:299 penalties. 15:55:32

10 Q It is your view that, under the NCAA 15:55:3311 bylaws, that the executive committee does have 15:55:3712 the authority to unilaterally impose punishment? 15:55:3913 MR. JOHNSON: Answer generally and not 15:55:4514 with respect to Penn State. 15:55:4615 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15:55:4716 MR. JOHNSON: That will protect work 15:55:4717 product. 15:55:4918 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Generally, yes, they 15:55:4919 have that authority. 15:55:5120 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:55:5221 Q It is generally your view that the 15:55:5222 bylaws allow for the executive committee to 15:55:5823 proceed in the fashion that it did in this case. 15:56:0224 And I know that's a specific example, but I 15:56:0525 think -- what I'm asking is, do they have the 15:56:09

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1 MR. JOHNSON: So I think -- by coming back 15:54:112 to discussions, I think we have to come back to 15:54:133 the instruction. Might have been discussed in 15:54:154 executive committee meetings, though. 15:54:205 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:54:226 Q Well, let's ask about executive 15:54:227 committee meetings now. There were, at roughly 15:54:248 the same time, I believe, two executive 15:54:289 committee meetings about potential punishment 15:54:32

10 for Penn State? 15:54:3611 A There were two executive committees -- 15:54:3812 meetings around this time -- 15:54:3913 Q Right. 15:54:4214 A -- that I recall. 15:54:4215 Can I add to my other answer? Because 15:54:4616 one other thing just popped into my head when I 15:54:4717 went through the things that, I think, under 15:54:5018 this type of circumstance one might consider. 15:54:5319 And one of them was whether or not the 15:54:5520 association could actually impose penalties on 15:55:0321 the university without going through the consent 15:55:0822 decree. I think I went through three or four or 15:55:1123 five things in my head, but I think I left that 15:55:1424 one out. 15:55:1625 Q You mean sort of a unilateral imposition 15:55:16

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1 power -- 15:56:092 MR. JOHNSON: They did proceed in that 15:56:103 fashion. 15:56:124 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 15:56:125 Q Yeah. Do they have the power to act 15:56:126 like the way they did in this case? 15:56:137 A The executive committee has the 15:56:158 authority to ask the president of the 15:56:179 association to enter into a contract with one of 15:56:19

10 its members, yes. 15:56:2211 Q And can you direct or cite for me the 15:56:2212 provision of the NCAA's constitution of bylaws 15:56:2713 that so empowers the executive committee to do 15:56:2914 that? And I can -- it's not a memory quiz. I 15:56:3315 can give you the thing, if you want. 15:56:3516 A I mean, the executive committee's 15:56:3617 powers, duties and responsibilities are laid out 15:56:3718 in Section 4.1 of the bylaws. They're listed 15:56:3919 there. They talk about acting with respect to 15:56:4320 issues of association-wide import, managing, 15:56:4721 having oversight for the legal affairs of the 15:56:5122 association, hiring the president of the 15:56:5423 association, defining his duties, those kind of 15:56:5524 things. They're all in there. 15:56:5825 Q What do you recall about the discussion 15:57:01


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1 of options at the first executive committee 15:57:032 session following the Freeh Report? 15:57:063 MR. JOHNSON: So, Donald, here I think the 15:57:084 way to think about this is, if there are 15:57:105 communications that you recall that are to you 15:57:136 or from you for the purpose of giving legal 15:57:167 advice, then you should let us know that and 15:57:188 we'll instruct you not to answer. But 15:57:219 generally speaking, you can answer that 15:57:22

10 question. 15:57:2411 THE WITNESS: I recall that the executive 15:57:2712 committee members gathered and had a discussion 15:57:3113 amongst themselves about how they thought the 15:57:3714 association should respond to the information 15:57:4315 learned from the Freeh Report. They talked 15:57:4716 about a variety of things. I don't recall any 15:57:4917 specific person talking about any specific 15:57:5218 issues, but the call included executive 15:57:5419 committee members. And to be clear, it also 15:57:5820 included the Division I board. And I don't 15:58:0121 know if you guys now understand the 15:58:0322 distinctions and difference of those two 15:58:0623 bodies, but they were both present on that 15:58:0724 call. 15:58:0925 Talking about how the association should 15:58:10

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1 Kip, that you've described. So let me try to 15:59:212 provide greater clarity around how I first 15:59:253 responded. And that is that there was a 15:59:284 majority of the executive committee members 15:59:305 that were on that call expressing the sense 15:59:326 that the product of what should happen here 15:59:377 should include a stop in play. 15:59:438 Q Was that sentiment communicated by you 15:59:469 or Mr. Berst to Gene Marsh at any time? 15:59:51

10 A It was. 15:59:5511 Q Talk about that in a little bit. If 15:59:5612 you're able, can you tell me whether the 16:00:0213 executive committee discussed the possibility of 16:00:0714 a consent decree-type solution in that first 16:00:1315 meeting? 16:00:1616 MR. JOHNSON: With the same instruction as 16:00:1617 before. In other words, if it's you advising 16:00:1818 or questions to you about authority, you should 16:00:2119 not answer, but otherwise, you can answer. 16:00:2420 THE WITNESS: I believe they did. 16:00:3421 Q I presume -- I usually get into trouble 16:00:3522 when I do this. I presume that the executive 16:00:3923 committee also discussed the possibility of the 16:00:4124 traditional enforcement route as a way to 16:00:4725 proceed? 16:00:50

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1 respond -- should respond in the wake of the 15:58:132 information learned in the Freeh Report. 15:58:163 Q In that first meeting, was there a 15:58:184 prevailing view among the executive committee 15:58:195 about the appropriate response? 15:58:216 A I wouldn't characterize it that way, but 15:58:247 there was certainly a majority sense that one of 15:58:268 the possibilities here clearly should be the 15:58:329 imposition of a stop in play. 15:58:36

10 Q When you answered the question in that 15:58:4011 fashion, is your answer that a majority believed 15:58:4212 it was possible to impose a suspension of play 15:58:4713 or that the majority believed that was the 15:58:5014 correct way to go or the leading way to go? Do 15:58:5315 you understand my question? I didn't understand 15:58:5616 your answer and I'm not sure which one you're 15:58:5817 indicating. 15:59:0118 A We've been together a long time. My 15:59:0119 answers are starting to sound like your 15:59:0320 questions. 15:59:0521 MR. JOHNSON: Or some other possibility. 15:59:0722 THE WITNESS: But I apologize for my 15:59:1123 answer being unclear. You know, part of the 15:59:1224 way you asked the questions the second time I 15:59:1625 think would fall into the privilege bucket, 15:59:18

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1 MR. JOHNSON: Same instruction. 16:00:512 THE WITNESS: I believe that was part of 16:00:523 the discussion as well. 16:00:534 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:00:545 Q Did the executive committee discuss the 16:00:556 option you mentioned of unilateral action by the 16:00:597 executive committee or the president, absent 16:01:038 enforcement and absent a consent decree? 16:01:069 MR. JOHNSON: Same instruction. 16:01:09

10 THE WITNESS: I don't think I can answer 16:01:1211 that question without revealing privileged 16:01:1312 communication. 16:01:1513 MR. JOHNSON: Then I instruct you not to 16:01:1614 answer. 16:01:1715 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:01:1816 Q Did you ever -- skipped around a little 16:01:1817 bit. 16:01:2118 Did you ever communicate to Gene Marsh 16:01:2219 the possibility of unilateral action by the 16:01:2520 executive committee as a potential sanction 16:01:2821 against Penn State? 16:01:3122 A I did not. 16:01:3223 Q Why not? 16:01:3324 MR. JOHNSON: Well, it hurts your brain to 16:01:3625 ask why you didn't say something, but if you 16:01:41


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1 can answer, you can... 16:01:442 THE WITNESS: The engagement with Gene 16:01:483 Marsh in which Dave Berst was included was 16:01:494 designed to communicate to Gene the sense and 16:01:545 direction of where my client, the NCAA, was 16:01:586 going with respect to the resolution of this 16:02:017 matter and the four questions that had been 16:02:048 posed to Penn State. 16:02:069 So we engaged in a fashion that was 16:02:08

10 consistent with the direction that we had 16:02:1011 heard coming out of that first meeting and we 16:02:1512 reported back information that was 16:02:1913 appropriate, consistent with that dialogue. 16:02:2114 Q Did you communicate to Gene Marsh -- and 16:02:2815 you now means Mr. Berst too -- the possibility 16:02:3416 of Penn State's utilization of the enforcement 16:02:3817 process? 16:02:4118 A We talked about that, yes. 16:02:4319 Q Were those the only two modes that were 16:02:5020 discussed with Mr. Marsh of potential 16:02:5221 resolution of the Penn State issue? 16:02:5622 A We may have talked about litigation as 16:03:0423 well. 16:03:0724 Q And litigation of what? 16:03:0725 A Over responding to the questions, over a 16:03:10

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1 else that was discussed. And I recall in one 16:04:252 part of our conversation, there was a discussion 16:04:283 about well, you know, you guys, if you want to 16:04:304 bring litigation, if you want to sue us or 16:04:345 something like that, that's -- that's your 16:04:356 choice as well. 16:04:377 Q I suppose I'm struggling with how you 16:04:388 would frame an injunction that would stop a 16:04:449 consent decree. 16:04:46

10 A Well, it could stop the whole process, 16:04:4911 presumably. If there was a legitimate cause of 16:04:5012 action that counsel for Penn State thought that 16:04:5313 they had against the NCAA at the time, they 16:04:5614 could pursue that. 16:04:5915 Q To stop NCAA from proceeding with any 16:05:0116 type of punitive action against Penn State? Is 16:05:0317 that what you mean? 16:05:0518 A I wouldn't characterize it as punitive. 16:05:0619 You know, from stopping this process or perhaps 16:05:0820 any other process. I don't know, maybe they 16:05:1121 would pursue an injunction to stop an 16:05:1322 enforcement investigation. I don't think that 16:05:1623 having spent time talking to Gene Marsh that 16:05:1924 that was the way he was thinking, but you asked 16:05:2125 me the questions of whether there was anything 16:05:23

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1 consent decree that included provisions that 16:03:172 were beyond what they wanted at the time. The 16:03:183 context of possibly an injunction or something 16:03:234 like that to stop or retard or slow this 16:03:285 process. 16:03:306 Q What would -- what was discussed about 16:03:317 what that injunction would prohibit? 16:03:328 A Moving forward with the consent degree 16:03:369 in the fashion that we, the NCAA, thought was 16:03:39

10 appropriate or even demanding a response to the 16:03:4411 questions that had been posed in the letter, you 16:03:4612 know, how we were going to move forward. 16:03:4913 Q So -- and I'll break it into constituent 16:03:5314 parts. Potential injunction or injunctive 16:03:5615 relief could have been directed at keeping Penn 16:03:5916 State from having to answer the four questions? 16:04:0417 A Or other things. I don't think it was 16:04:0618 that specific. Understand you're talking about 16:04:0919 from my perspective a lawyer representing the 16:04:1020 NCAA, from Gene's perspective, a lawyer 16:04:1221 representing Penn State. So we're not going to 16:04:1522 have a conversation specifically about, you 16:04:1823 know, what legal cause of action might be 16:04:1924 available. 16:04:2225 And so you asked if there was anything 16:04:23

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1 other than moving down the path of a possible 16:05:252 agreed-upon resolution or the path of a possible 16:05:293 enforcement investigation. And that was the 16:05:324 only other thing that I can recall in those 16:05:345 conversations with Gene Marsh that came out. 16:05:366 Q So those were three and those are the 16:05:397 three, the only three, rather, that you recall 16:05:418 sitting here today of options that you discussed 16:05:439 with Gene Marsh? 16:05:46

10 A That -- yeah. 16:05:4811 MR. JOHNSON: I think you just miscounted, 16:05:5012 because I think the fourth was answering the 16:05:5213 questions. 16:05:5414 Q Just answering the questions was 16:05:5715 discussed with Mr. Marsh as an option for Penn 16:05:5916 State? 16:06:0217 A It was the first discussion with 16:06:0318 Mr. Marsh before we got to the point of agreeing 16:06:0419 that the questions didn't need to be answered. 16:06:0620 If you recall, I said in our first 16:06:0821 conversation that was the purpose for his 16:06:1022 retention was to help Penn State respond to the 16:06:1223 questions. 16:06:1424 Q How -- walk me through how Mr. Berst 16:06:1525 became involved in the negotiations. 16:06:23


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1 MR. JOHNSON: Here, Donald, there's the 16:06:282 potential for privileged communications, so 16:06:303 keep that in mind as you answer the question. 16:06:324 THE WITNESS: I think we talked about this 16:06:375 a little earlier, so I think I can do it 16:06:386 without revealing any privileged 16:06:407 communications. 16:06:428 Dave Berst is a well respected 16:06:439 individual with a wealth of knowledge about 16:06:46

10 the NCAA, had a relationship with the issues 16:06:4711 that were in here from his many, many years 16:06:5412 with the NCAA, had knowledge of Gene Marsh. 16:06:5713 And so he just -- he was the natural person 16:07:0114 to actually work with me on trying to find 16:07:0515 the right resolution here. 16:07:0816 Q Mr. Berst testified -- and this is a 16:07:1117 rough paraphrase, so anybody can feel free to 16:07:1518 pull out the transcript. But Mr. Berst 16:07:1719 testified that he more or less injected himself 16:07:2020 into the process because of his knowledge of 16:07:2321 Gene Marsh, because of his knowledge of NCAA as 16:07:2622 an institution, much of the things you just 16:07:3023 said. Is that a fair characterization? 16:07:3224 A That sounds like something Dave Berst 16:07:3425 would say. He was the right person to be part 16:07:38

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1 person. 16:08:442 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 20 was marked 16:08:443 for identification purposes.) 16:08:444 Q Okay. I'm going to give you a document 16:08:445 that we're marking as Remy 20. And I'll 16:09:046 represent to you that this is the ESPN Van Natta 16:09:107 article. Just by way of background, in Gene 16:09:148 Marsh's deposition, I offered him this article 16:09:239 as a way to give an overview of his impression 16:09:28

10 of the negotiations or discussions between you, 16:09:3311 he, and Mr. Berst and whether this article 16:09:3712 accurately characterized his understanding of 16:09:3913 it. So I, in fairness, wanted to do the same 16:09:4314 with you. And take some time to review it. 16:09:4515 MR. HAVERSTICK: This has been previously 16:09:4816 marked as Marsh 3. 16:09:4817 MR. KOWALSKI: And that's what we're 16:09:5718 calling it today? 16:09:5819 MR. GARDEN: No. It's now also Remy 20. 16:10:0120 THE WITNESS: This is pretty long. If you 16:10:0921 want to ask me specific questions, you can or I 16:10:1122 can read the whole thing. 16:10:1323 Q Are you familiar enough with it? Do you 16:10:1524 remember enough of it that I can -- that I can 16:10:1625 ask you some general questions about it with, of 16:10:19

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1 of this process. I don't know if it was Dave's 16:07:402 idea, if it was my idea or somebody else's idea, 16:07:423 but I think it was -- it was appropriate for 16:07:454 Dave to be part of the process. 16:07:475 Q I'm not -- I've asked this, I think. 16:07:496 I'm not sure I got an answer, or if I did, I 16:07:517 forgot. How were you designated as the lead 16:07:538 negotiator for NCAA in this whole thicket? 16:07:599 MR. JOHNSON: You did ask that, but you 16:08:04

10 can answer. 16:08:0511 THE WITNESS: I -- again, I think -- I 16:08:0512 think I was the natural person. If you're 16:08:0613 saying who says who's going to take the lead 16:08:0814 for the NCAA, we go all the way back to when 16:08:1115 the Sandusky indictment came out and the 16:08:1516 natural progression of things, I think that Dr. 16:08:1817 Emmert made it clear to the staff that I was 16:08:2018 the right person to help manage this moving 16:08:2319 forward. But again, that was natural. 16:08:2620 Q I get that. But Dr. Emmert, I think, is 16:08:2921 the -- is that the answer? Dr. Emmert is 16:08:3122 ultimately the person who decided that you were 16:08:3323 going to lead the effort on behalf of NCAA? 16:08:3624 A It naturally occurred, but yes. 16:08:4025 Dr. Emmert made it clear that I would be the 16:08:42

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1 course, your ability to go back and -- 16:10:212 A I have a recall of it. 16:10:273 MR. JOHNSON: That feels dangerous. If 16:10:284 your questions are going to be general, I feel 16:10:325 like you should kind of glance through it at 16:10:346 least or respond to specific pieces of it, 16:10:367 whichever. 16:10:388 THE WITNESS: I remember it. I just don't 16:12:239 remember it being this long. All right. 16:12:49

10 There's a lot in here. 16:12:5011 Q To keep it hopefully -- easy might not 16:14:2512 be the right word, but brief, with respect to 16:14:2913 the parts of the article that discuss your or 16:14:3114 characterize your negotiations with Marsh about 16:14:3415 the consent decree, do they -- were they 16:14:3916 accurate? 16:14:4617 A Well, I mean, these are Don Van Natta's 16:14:4718 words, not my words and not Gene's words. So if 16:14:5219 you go to the first paragraph, it says that I 16:14:5620 called Gene. Yeah, that's -- that's accurate. 16:14:5921 We talked on the telephone. Van Natta 16:15:0122 characterizes it as "the news was grim." I 16:15:0723 think that's editorial license. I don't know 16:15:1024 how you want to go through this. When it says 16:15:1125 Remy said Penn State was facing unprecedented 16:15:12


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1 punishment, a multiple season death penalty, no 16:15:172 football for years, no, I don't think that's 16:15:193 accurate. I don't recall ever saying that Penn 16:15:234 State would receive a multiple season death 16:15:275 penalty, no football for years. 16:15:316 Q You don't recall ever saying that to 16:15:337 Mr. Marsh? 16:15:348 A No. So I do recall him asking are you 16:15:359 overselling this. And this, in my mind, was the 16:15:45

10 fact that the majority of the board of directors 16:15:4911 and the executive committee were at that point 16:15:5212 in time discussing the stop in play as an 16:15:5513 appropriate penalty to -- to resolve this 16:16:0014 matter. 16:16:0415 So when Marsh asked are you overselling 16:16:0516 this, which I do recall that phraseology being 16:16:0717 used, the response was no, absolutely not. The 16:16:1018 majority of the board is talking about this and 16:16:1319 the way they're talking about it includes a stop 16:16:1520 in play. 16:16:1821 Q But you remember that's as far as you 16:16:1922 went with your statement, a stop in play? You 16:16:2123 didn't characterize how long it would be or 16:16:2324 whether it was multiple season, et cetera? 16:16:2525 A No, I did not. 16:16:30

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1 portrayed it -- it, stoppage of play 16:17:462 possibility -- to Mr. Marsh as simply the board 16:17:493 is thinking about a stoppage of play without 16:17:534 quantifying how long it would be? Is that 16:17:565 what's inaccurate, in other words, about that 16:17:586 sentence? 16:18:007 A There's two parts. The first is -- 16:18:008 understand I'm not saying the board's thinking 16:18:019 about this. I'm saying this is the sentiment 16:18:04

10 we're receiving back from the board. We had a 16:18:0611 board meeting, executive committee meeting -- 16:18:0812 excuse me, and the majority of the people on 16:18:0913 that call had expressed that a stoppage in play 16:18:1114 was appropriate under these circumstances. Full 16:18:1615 stop. 16:18:1916 The notion that somebody may have, 16:18:2017 during that dialogue, said, well, should that 16:18:2218 stoppage of play, I think that stoppage of play, 16:18:2519 maybe that stoppage of play is more than one 16:18:2820 year, my recollection is somebody may have said 16:18:3121 that. 16:18:3322 That didn't reflect the majority of the 16:18:3523 board's views at that point in time or at any 16:18:3724 point in time, just to be clear. So I wouldn't 16:18:4125 have said that to Gene Marsh. 16:18:44

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1 Q Do you know if David Berst did? 16:16:342 A I don't recall whether Dave did or not. 16:16:353 That wasn't part of the message that I can 16:16:404 recall with respect to many folks on the board, 16:16:425 the majority of the board were looking at a stop 16:16:486 in play. Because there weren't many folks on 16:16:507 the board talking about a multiple season stop 16:16:558 in play, no football for years. So we wouldn't 16:16:589 -- we would not have said that. 16:17:03

10 Q Was it that the board was not 16:17:0911 quantifying how many years a stop in play would 16:17:1012 be or was the board contemplating a single-year 16:17:1213 stop in play? 16:17:1514 A Well, remember, as we talked about 16:17:1615 before, there was a free-flowing discussion 16:17:1816 amongst members of the executive committee. 16:17:2017 Q I understand. I understand. 16:17:2218 A And I don't recall any specific person 16:17:2419 saying any specific thing. Could it have been 16:17:2620 the case that somebody talked about a stoppage 16:17:2921 in play for more than one year? Sure. Was that 16:17:3322 a sentiment that was being expressed by the 16:17:3623 majority of the board? I don't recall it that 16:17:3824 way at all. 16:17:4125 Q And is it your recollection that you 16:17:43

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1 Q Do you recall when you put on the table 16:18:492 with Mr. Marsh the possibility of a stoppage in 16:18:513 play whether Mr. Marsh asked, well, how many 16:18:564 years are we talking about? How many seasons? 16:18:585 A I don't recall that. Because again, 16:19:016 remember, this -- at this point in time in this 16:19:077 first call that he's describing here, it really 16:19:098 is just reporting now to him the sentiment that 16:19:119 we heard during this board meeting, executive 16:19:16

10 committee meeting, excuse me, in order to begin 16:19:2111 a conversation about how we were going to move 16:19:2212 forward. Gene, you should know that what we 16:19:2513 heard coming back from the people on the call 16:19:2714 was a clear majority of people thinking that a 16:19:3015 stoppage of play was appropriate. It wasn't 16:19:3716 that, this is where the direction we're going. 16:19:3917 Q When you're communicating the sentiment 16:19:4218 that a stoppage in play is appropriate to 16:19:4419 Mr. Marsh, are you also communicating, but we 16:19:4720 have another possibility that we'd like you to 16:19:5121 consider? A negotiated settlement? 16:19:5322 MR. JOHNSON: Are you talking about this 16:19:5723 call on the morning of -- 16:19:5824 MR. HAVERSTICK: Well, really, I mean, it 16:20:0025 sounds like we're talking in general. We're 16:20:00


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1 maybe bleeding into multiple conversations 16:20:032 with -- between Marsh and Remy and Berst. And 16:20:053 I don't want to miss one by saying it's only 16:20:104 this call. 16:20:135 MR. JOHNSON: I think my -- I think my 16:20:146 helpful insertion was unhelpful. We know that 16:20:147 they did pursue a different course. 16:20:188 MR. HAVERSTICK: Right. 16:20:199 MR. JOHNSON: Are you asking when did that 16:20:20

10 first come up? 16:20:2211 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:20:2212 Q Well, I'm asking -- and in conjunction 16:20:2213 with this discussion or any discussion at any 16:20:2414 point in time about the possibility of the death 16:20:2615 penalty being imposed. Do you understand my 16:20:2816 question? 16:20:3217 A I thought I did until that colloquy 16:20:3318 again. 16:20:3619 Q Could we read it back? 16:20:3620 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 16:20:3821 record was read back by the court reporter.) 16:20:3822 Q For me, it wasn't a bad one. 16:20:3923 A So we're on this morning of July 17 16:21:0324 call, and I think as I described it, the purpose 16:21:0625 of the call was, Gene, this is what we're 16:21:09

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1 not discussing the possibility of the consent 16:22:192 decree. You're merely reporting what your 16:22:233 executive committee is telling you so Gene knows 16:22:254 what he's up against. 16:22:275 A No. The context of the conversation 16:22:306 around the possible use of the stoppage of play 16:22:337 as one of the penalties or a penalty or the 16:22:388 penalty, was really to communicate with him what 16:22:419 was going on on our side. The concept of how we 16:22:45

10 might resolve the matter that has arisen as a 16:22:4911 result of the Freeh Report and the information 16:22:5412 came -- coming out of that Freeh Report was a 16:22:5513 concept that we were working through. It was a 16:22:5814 fluid kind of conversation around what's next, 16:23:0215 what are we going to do, how are we going to do 16:23:0616 this. So the notion that there might be some 16:23:0817 summary resolution was a notion, but I'm trying 16:23:0918 to separate out the two. The conversation 16:23:1419 around communicating what we heard from our 16:23:1620 executive committee. 16:23:2021 Q I appreciate that, but I want to make 16:23:2022 sure that I'm right -- and I think I am -- that 16:23:2223 the conversation about your report on your 16:23:2624 executive committee is not happening in a 16:23:3025 vacuum. In other words, it's not the only thing 16:23:32

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1 hearing from our executive committee and our 16:21:142 board. It was all in the context of how are we 16:21:173 going to move forward. It wasn't the death 16:21:214 penalty or a stoppage of play is this, or we go 16:21:255 down this route. It was this is what they're 16:21:296 thinking in terms of what an appropriate 16:21:327 sanction would be under the circumstances that 16:21:358 were described in the Freeh Report. 16:21:379 And this is what we're hearing from a 16:21:39

10 majority of the board members. That could have 16:21:4111 very well been a component of the consent 16:21:4312 decree, right? When you talk about what the 16:21:4613 appropriate penalties would be, one of those 16:21:4814 penalties could have been a stoppage of play. 16:21:5015 But at this point on this call, it's -- 16:21:5316 it's merely reporting back this is what we're 16:21:5417 hearing, that he could go back and talk to his 16:21:5818 clients about what we're hearing in our 16:22:0119 executive committee and board of directors 16:22:0520 meeting and we can engage in a continued 16:22:0721 dialogue about how to get to what ultimately 16:22:0922 became the consent decree. 16:22:1223 Q So in that first call -- and let's 16:22:1324 confine it. Kip's right. Let's confine it, for 16:22:1425 simplicity's sake, to this phone call. You're 16:22:17

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1 you're communicating. You're also in the same 16:23:342 discourse at that time with Gene Marsh talking 16:23:383 about, hey, how can we move this forward. 16:23:414 A Yeah. I think that's -- that's an 16:23:435 ongoing conversation. And we talked earlier 16:23:436 about my first call, well, voice mails back and 16:23:477 forth with Gene. We were talking about 16:23:508 specifically answering the questions. And as 16:23:519 this thing evolved, we started talking about is 16:23:54

10 there another way to get to an agreed-upon 16:23:5711 resolution. 16:24:0012 Q As you evolved the conversation with 16:24:0013 Gene Marsh -- and now we're away from this phone 16:24:0314 call and we're moving on to the continuum of 16:24:0515 time where you discussed this with Gene Marsh -- 16:24:0816 are you getting to in your conversation a point 16:24:1017 where you're saying our board -- our executive 16:24:1518 committee may want to do this, but we think we 16:24:1819 could work out another solution involving the 16:24:2020 consent decree with some other penalties 16:24:2421 imposed? 16:24:2522 A You're separating them out as to 16:24:2923 suggest, if I think I understand your question, 16:24:3124 that the notion of the death penalty was or the 16:24:3325 stoppage of play was standalone, like, you know, 16:24:38


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1 our executive committee is going to do this 16:24:422 unless you enter into a consent decree. That -- 16:24:463 that didn't happen. And I just want to make 16:24:484 clear that that's not the context of this 16:24:515 conversation. 16:24:526 We talked about a lot of things over the 16:24:537 course of the few days that we had discussions 16:24:568 about how to move forward and various penalties 16:24:599 and various approaches. And, you know, while we 16:25:01

10 had firm beliefs about how we should proceed and 16:25:0411 what the penalties and corrective actions should 16:25:0912 be, so too did Gene. And, you know, so we had 16:25:1113 conversations around that and what ultimately 16:25:1814 became the consent decree, we can all read. 16:25:2015 Q I'm going to paraphrase testimony, but 16:25:2416 if people dispute it, we can pull the 16:25:2917 transcripts. Both Mr. Berst and Mr. Marsh have 16:25:3118 testified that the discussion you had over that 16:25:3919 period of time about the consent decree was not 16:25:4320 a negotiation. Do you agree with that 16:25:4621 characterization? 16:25:4822 A Yeah. I don't know how either David or 16:25:5323 Gene define negotiation. And that term, I 16:25:5524 suppose, has different meanings for different 16:26:0025 people. 16:26:02

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1 penalties that Penn State desired? 16:27:112 MR. JOHNSON: You have documents that show 16:27:153 some of those. But if you recall, you can say. 16:27:164 Q If you recall. Actually, I'm not sure. 16:27:195 What are -- do you recall any modifications to 16:27:226 the penalties that Penn State desired and that 16:27:257 NCAA, in turn, agreed to? 16:27:298 A Well, one of the things early on that we 16:27:339 were thinking about is -- is how many years 16:27:36

10 would there be a post-season ban. Initially, it 16:27:3911 was five. It was pushed back, so it was moved 16:27:4312 to four. 16:27:4613 That's one of the areas. We were 16:27:4814 talking about what the scholarship reduction 16:27:5315 would be. Initially, there was one number, and 16:27:5616 I confess that I'm not an expert on how the 16:27:5817 scholarships were awarded or reduced or what 16:28:0018 ordinarily happens in this space, but there 16:28:0319 was -- there was push-back on the initial 16:28:0520 scholarships granted versus the overall 16:28:0821 scholarships that one would have and what would 16:28:1022 make sense in the context of a penalty 16:28:1323 structure. And so we made adjustments to 16:28:1624 reflect rationality in that process. There were 16:28:1825 discussions around going the other way, going 16:28:24

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1 All that I'll say is during this period 16:26:032 of time, we had a back and forth. There were 16:26:053 things that the NCAA believed needed to be 16:26:094 included in any kind of resolution that would be 16:26:125 agreed upon at the end of the day. There were 16:26:156 things that Penn State believed needed to be 16:26:187 included in any kind of resolution that was had 16:26:208 by the end of the day. 16:26:249 I'm sure you have documents that reflect 16:26:25

10 this. There were modifications to the consent 16:26:2811 decree. There were lists of items. In fact, I 16:26:3012 think I even saw some in this article that -- 16:26:3213 that reflected what needed to be included in an 16:26:3814 agreed-upon resolution. 16:26:4215 So if negotiation's not the right 16:26:4416 word -- and I'll take it for the purposes of 16:26:4717 what these gentlemen have said, that it's not 16:26:4918 the right word -- there certainly was a 16:26:5119 discussion. And there certainly was a back and 16:26:5320 forth, and there certainly were modifications to 16:26:5521 the approach, to the potential penalties, to the 16:26:5822 language that was included in the ultimate 16:27:0323 consent decree before it was signed. There was 16:27:0624 all of that. 16:27:0825 Q What were the modifications to the 16:27:08

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1 around -- there was an early discussion about a 16:28:282 fine and what the fine should be, and, you know, 16:28:303 before there was absolute certainty on our side 16:28:344 in terms of what the number was going to be, I 16:28:375 believe David had put out one number and we came 16:28:396 back and said no, this is -- we've done the 16:28:437 calculations. This is the actual number. 16:28:448 Q I'm sorry. That's the 30 to 60 change? 16:28:469 A Correct. You know, there were 16:28:49

10 provisions in the consent decree that ultimately 16:28:5311 we talked about that Penn State desired for them 16:28:5712 to be in there. The way things were worded. 16:29:0013 What was ultimately in there with respect to the 16:29:0314 Athletic Integrity Agreement and how we were 16:29:0915 going to structure the Athletic Integrity 16:29:1116 Agreement. Throughout the process, there were a 16:29:1517 number of times when there was push-back and we 16:29:1618 said yes. And there were a number of times 16:29:2119 where there was push-back and we said no, that's 16:29:2420 a nonstarter. 16:29:2621 We believed that that needs to be a 16:29:2822 component of any agreed-upon resolution of this 16:29:3023 project, of this process -- excuse me, and we're 16:29:3324 not going to change that. 16:29:3625 So this is the direction we're going. 16:29:38


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1 Now, I suppose at that time, Gene could have 16:29:412 said, well, I don't -- I don't like that. I'm 16:29:433 going to tell my client this is not a good deal. 16:29:454 We're going to go down the regular enforcement 16:29:475 infractions process. He could have done that 16:29:516 with respect to those terms we weren't wavering 16:29:537 on. 16:29:558 But again, you asked about some examples 16:29:579 and I think there are lots of e-mails on this 16:30:01

10 kind of stuff, so you probably can find them in 16:30:0511 the documents, of a back and forth. 16:30:0712 Q What do you recall being the 16:30:1113 nonnegotiable penalty terms for NCAA? 16:30:1214 A The concepts, right? So I believe one 16:30:1715 of the first conversations we had was around -- 16:30:2016 when you say "the penalty," there are two 16:30:2417 components in this. There's also a corrective 16:30:2818 action component we were talking about. 16:30:3119 Q I'm not really getting into that. 16:30:3320 A So, you know, initially, there might 16:30:3521 have been some conversation around having 16:30:3922 prohibitions with respect to trustee 16:30:4323 participation in athletics event or some system 16:30:4624 that would manage how trustees would participate 16:30:5025 in athletics events. And that kind of went 16:30:55

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1 willing to accept for the purposes of reaching 16:32:192 this agreed-upon resolution, the facts as laid 16:32:233 out in the Freeh Report and adopt the corrective 16:32:274 actions as laid out in the Freeh Report. That 16:32:305 was essential. 16:32:326 Q That included an acceptance by Penn 16:32:337 State that there was a lack of institutional 16:32:358 control demonstrated by the university with 16:32:379 respect to Jerry Sandusky? 16:32:40

10 A I think that was Penn State's 16:32:4311 determination after the reading the Freeh 16:32:4512 Report. You read the Freeh Report, it comes 16:32:4613 back to the questions. Everything goes back to 16:32:4814 the questions. Were there violations of NCAA 16:32:5115 bylaws? Penn State determined that yes, there 16:32:5316 were violations of NCAA bylaws. It appears that 16:32:5517 way in the consent decree. That -- I think that 16:32:5818 was useful in moving this along. 16:33:0119 Q You know, I meant to ask you earlier, do 16:33:0420 you know why the Freeh Report, after receiving 16:33:0721 all of the education it did from you, did not 16:33:0922 discuss any specific NCAA bylaw violations, if 16:33:1423 you know? 16:33:1924 MR. JOHNSON: Well, no. I was just going 16:33:2025 to say there are a couple of ways you might 16:33:20

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1 away. So that wasn't, to your question, a 16:30:572 non-negotiable provision, but it was a provision 16:31:023 that went away. 16:31:064 In -- in terms of concepts, you had a 16:31:075 post season ban. You had a fine. You had a 16:31:126 reduction in scholarship. You had a vacation of 16:31:187 wins. And off the top of my head -- and if you 16:31:228 showed me the documents, I probably could do 16:31:269 this a little better -- were concepts and ideas 16:31:28

10 that we believed should be included in the 16:31:3211 consent decree. First and foremost, beyond all 16:31:3412 of that was the recognition and acknowledgment 16:31:3813 that -- that the Penn State University accepted 16:31:4314 the Freeh Report as the basis for moving forward 16:31:4815 in this action. 16:31:5216 If they had said, no, we don't accept 16:31:5317 the Freeh Report, we reject the Freeh Report, 16:31:5518 then I think that we might have had to examine 16:31:5819 going in a different direction, but they didn't. 16:32:0120 You know, out the box. As I said I 16:32:0321 think earlier, the day the Freeh Report was 16:32:0622 released, there was a statement released by the 16:32:0923 board of trustees and as we moved into this 16:32:1124 conversation, it became clear to us early on 16:32:1325 because we were told this, that Penn State was 16:32:16

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1 know because someone told you or you might know 16:33:222 because you would be guessing. I think you 16:33:253 should answer with respect to the former, but 16:33:274 not the latter. 16:33:295 THE WITNESS: Well, I read the Freeh 16:33:396 Report, like all of us in this room I suspect 16:33:407 have. And you're right. It didn't cite NCAA 16:33:438 bylaws. It didn't talk about institutional 16:33:459 control or unethical conduct. I wasn't an 16:33:47

10 author of the Freeh Report, so I can't tell you 16:33:5111 what they were thinking at the time. 16:33:5312 Subsequent to the release of the Freeh 16:33:5613 Report, I think there -- I have some 16:33:5814 recollection of a conversation with the Freeh 16:34:0215 Group about this. And their communication to 16:34:0516 me was that those are issues that were left 16:34:0917 to the university to ultimately make the 16:34:1218 determination as to whether or not it 16:34:1419 believes there was a lack of institutional 16:34:1720 control or unethical conduct or other bylaws 16:34:1921 that might have been violated under these 16:34:2222 circumstances. They said we did the same 16:34:2423 thing with the criminal work or the same 16:34:2624 thing with the Clery investigation. We 16:34:2825 provided the facts. We provided the 16:34:31


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1 information that we found and the facts that 16:34:332 we found and we provided some corrective 16:34:353 actions to deal with those. But where there 16:34:384 were other organizations that were better 16:34:415 suited to make judgments based upon those 16:34:436 facts, we left it to those organizations to 16:34:467 do so. 16:34:488 Q Did NCAA, as part of the overall process 16:34:489 in which you engaged in, make a determination 16:34:53

10 that there was a lack of institutional control 16:34:5511 at Penn State such that these penalties were 16:34:5812 justified? 16:35:0013 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. But you 16:35:0214 can answer the question. 16:35:0315 THE WITNESS: Penn State did. I mean, 16:35:0516 that's what they said to us and so that's the 16:35:0517 basis upon which we moved forward. We didn't 16:35:0818 have to. 16:35:1219 Q You didn't have to, because Penn State 16:35:1220 said we had -- there was a lack of institutional 16:35:1321 control and you accepted that? 16:35:1522 A Well, they said these are the bylaws, 16:35:1723 these are principles, these are the issues. It 16:35:1924 may have been described as institutional 16:35:2125 integrity, which goes beyond the notions of 16:35:23

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1 agreement. That's what all the parties 16:36:262 contemplated would happen. And so, of course, 16:36:273 they were authorized and permitted under that 16:36:294 agreement. 16:36:335 MR. JOHNSON: I'm just going to need a 16:36:336 bathroom break whenever there's a good stopping 16:36:357 place. 16:36:368 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: End of media file 4. 16:36:379 We're now off the record at 16:35. 16:36:39

10 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 16:36:4311 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins Media 16:51:2312 File 5 in the videotaped deposition of Donald 16:51:2413 Remy. We are now on the record at 16:49. 16:51:2714 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:51:3115 Q Mr. Remy, earlier today you testified -- 16:51:3316 actually, it was, I think, within the past hour 16:51:3717 or so -- testified that you were the -- you were 16:51:3918 the -- sort of the natural lead to handle the 16:51:4119 process with Penn State, correct? 16:51:4720 A Yes. That's a fair characterization. 16:51:5021 Q Had you ever been the lead on any other 16:51:5222 matter in which sanctions were either threatened 16:51:5923 or imposed as part of a -- part of the 16:52:0224 enforcement process or not part of the 16:52:0525 enforcement -- part of the enforcement process? 16:52:09

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1 institutional control under these circumstances 16:35:262 that violate the values and principles of the 16:35:273 NCAA and that was enough. The acceptance of the 16:35:314 factual findings and the corrective actions in 16:35:345 the Freeh Report and the acknowledgment that 16:35:376 there were violations of NCAA bylaws assisted us 16:35:407 in determining if this route would work. 16:35:458 Q And that indeed the punishments that 16:35:479 were imposed upon Penn State were correct, given 16:35:49

10 the admission of lack of institutional control? 16:35:5211 A I don't know that I would characterize 16:35:5612 them as correct or not. Those were the -- those 16:35:5713 were the corrective actions. Those were the 16:35:5814 punitive actions that we thought were 16:36:0115 appropriate under the circumstances and 16:36:0316 ultimately, Penn State agreed. 16:36:0517 Q I assume you'd agree that they were 16:36:0718 permitted under the -- under the concession or 16:36:0819 admission by Penn State? 16:36:1120 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. 16:36:1421 THE WITNESS: Well, it goes back to they 16:36:1522 were permitted as part of the resolution of 16:36:1623 this matter through a consent agreement and 16:36:1924 Penn State agreed to them. The NCAA agreed to 16:36:2125 them. We signed a document that reflects that 16:36:23

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1 A Well, if you'll recall, we talked about 16:52:102 enforcement. And I don't have a role in the 16:52:133 enforcement process at all, actually, or no head 16:52:144 of enforcement has ever reported to me. So that 16:52:185 process is a separate process and a separate 16:52:216 component of the organization. So, no, I don't 16:52:237 have a role in that space. 16:52:248 Q How about in any other nonenforcement 16:52:269 proceeding or venue where sanctions were meted 16:52:30

10 out? Have you ever been the lead in any 16:52:3511 situation there? 16:52:3712 A Yes. I'm not sure I entirely understand 16:52:3813 your question. It wouldn't be any role to deal 16:52:4114 with -- to deal with an enforcement issue. Here 16:52:4415 we're talking about a -- a legal issue, in large 16:52:4616 measure, and the resolution of which is achieved 16:52:5017 through an agreement between two parties. That 16:52:5318 includes sanctions, to be sure, but not the 16:52:5519 structure of which is, this is a sanction 16:53:0220 matter, but rather this is an issue of huge 16:53:0521 association-wide import, that has a variety of 16:53:0922 different ramifications, one; and, two, 16:53:1323 understand I had just come to the NCAA in 2011, 16:53:1624 and so, from that time to this time, wasn't -- 16:53:2325 wasn't very long before I was brought in to talk 16:53:27


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1 about what the legal issues were associated with 16:53:302 this. 16:53:323 Q So, with that clarification, is the 16:53:344 answer "no"? 16:53:375 A I mean, there weren't any other matters 16:53:396 in which I think it would have made sense for me 16:53:417 to be involved. There are many pieces of 16:53:438 litigation that the NCAA has that involve 16:53:479 sanctions, against individuals or institutions. 16:53:50

10 And, yes, I am involved in those matters. I am 16:53:5311 involved in those cases. They're the product of 16:53:5712 enforcement/infractions, processes, that 16:54:0113 ultimately find their way into litigation. And 16:54:0314 so I'm involved in those cases to the extent it 16:54:0615 involves representing the association with 16:54:0916 respect to those matters. 16:54:1117 Q "Yes" or "no"? Were you ever the lead 16:54:1418 in another matter, another legal matter, in 16:54:1619 which sanctions were either imposed or 16:54:2020 implemented? 16:54:2421 MR. JOHNSON: Just -- just -- before you 16:54:2522 answer that, because I know you can't answer 16:54:2523 that -- do you mean even up to and including 16:54:2724 today or as of that time? 16:54:2925 MR. HAVERSTICK: As of that time. 16:54:31

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1 But -- and I would love to get you out 16:55:392 of here on time. But if we ask a "yes" and 16:55:413 "no," if you want to answer "yes" and "no" and 16:55:434 then -- and then explain, we can move on. I 16:55:455 think the answer's no, but I just want to make 16:55:496 sure. 16:55:517 MR. JOHNSON: Ask him if he's ever done 16:55:528 anything like this before. 16:55:549 THE WITNESS: Well, I said no. I mean, 16:55:54

10 no. This is unprecedented. 16:55:5511 MR. JOHNSON: All right. 16:55:5912 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:56:0013 Q Let me show you a document we've marked 16:56:0714 as -- no, not that one. 124. 16:56:0915 While Andrew pulls that up, earlier, 16:57:0116 half hour or so ago, you testified about 16:57:0517 Penn State's -- and correct me if I'm 16:57:0818 characterizing wrong, but Penn State's 16:57:1619 concession that it violated NCAA's bylaws, or 16:57:1920 admission it violated NCAA's bylaws. 16:57:2321 Where is -- where is that? To what are 16:57:2522 you referring? 16:57:3023 A I mean, if you -- if you put -- I don't 16:57:3224 have the consent decree in front of me, but 16:57:3525 it's -- and I don't know if it's admitted in 16:57:36

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1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm trying to be 16:54:332 clear here. I mean -- and I'm trying to get to 16:54:343 your question, because the answer is, there are 16:54:364 litigation matters that involve sanctions. 16:54:405 And, yes, I am the lead. So -- and they might 16:54:426 involve the resolution of a case where a 16:54:477 sanction was issued. And so in that context, 16:54:508 yes. 16:54:559 But in this context, as I think everyone 16:54:56

10 recognizes, this was an unprecedented 16:54:5911 circumstance, with unprecedented issues being 16:55:0212 placed before the association, and a path 16:55:0613 that was taken that certainly was authorized 16:55:1014 under our bylaws, but a path that was taken 16:55:1215 that was different than any other. 16:55:1516 So it's not the case that there was ever 16:55:1717 a circumstance like this, either before or, 16:55:1918 quite candidly, after this has occurred. 16:55:2319 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 16:55:2520 Q This wasn't a litigation? 16:55:2621 A This could have resulted in litigation. 16:55:2822 In fact, we are all here today because this 16:55:3023 consent degree was entered into and there are 16:55:3424 some who think that it shouldn't have been. 16:55:3725 Q Fair enough. 16:55:39

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1 evidence, but I'm happy to look at it, to refer 16:57:382 back to it. 16:57:403 Q We can do it. 16:57:414 A I believe it -- I believe it's in there 16:57:425 in terms of their understanding with respect to 16:57:456 the information that was provided in the 16:57:507 Freeh Report and their acknowledgment that that 16:57:518 information was a violation of institutional 16:57:549 integrity, or whatever the language is in there. 16:57:58

10 We can pull it out and read it. 16:58:0011 Q Yeah. Let's -- but that's where you 16:58:0212 believe the source of Penn State's admission 16:58:0313 that it violated NCAA bylaws is, in the consent 16:58:0514 decree? 16:58:0915 A No. That's where it's finally 16:58:0916 memorialized. The acknowledgment that that 16:58:1117 occurred came through the conversations that we 16:58:1518 had with Gene Marsh. 16:58:1619 Q I thought you told me that there was a 16:58:1920 reference or an admission by Penn State that it 16:58:2221 had violated NCAA bylaws. Is there is a 16:58:2722 document that says that? 16:58:2923 A Well, again, I mean, if you pull out the 16:58:3124 consent decree, it's the document that reflects 16:58:3325 the acknowledgment of Penn State -- and I don't 16:58:35


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1 recall the language, as we sit here today -- and 16:58:372 the data that was provided in the Freeh Report 16:58:423 serving as the basis that -- that there had been 16:58:454 a violation of the concepts of institutional 16:58:495 control or integrity and the like. 16:58:536 I don't know if the cites are in there 16:58:567 or not. And there may be documents that are 16:58:588 reflective of the communications back and forth 16:59:019 with Gene Marsh, where the point about 16:59:04

10 acknowledgment and recognition that the 16:59:0811 information that was provided in the 16:59:1012 Freeh Report demonstrated the violation of the 16:59:1213 NCAA principles, the values, and all the things 16:59:1914 that were in the four questions in the letter, 16:59:2115 but not specifically delineated in that way. 16:59:2316 Q So we'll all take a look at the consent 16:59:2817 decree and the Freeh Report, and they say what 16:59:3018 they say. 16:59:3219 Other than those two source documents, 16:59:3220 are you aware, as you sit here today, of any 16:59:3421 other document in which Penn State conceded or 16:59:3722 admitted to NCAA bylaw violations? 16:59:4223 A You keep saying "NCAA bylaw violations" 16:59:4724 as if there are chapter and verse cites. And 16:59:5025 what I said to you earlier was, during the 16:59:52

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1 I'm not sure what words we're going to see So 17:00:582 I'm not sure how to search for it 17:01:013 We can go off the record 17:01:024 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going off 17:01:075 record at 16:59 17:01:086 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken ) 17:04:457 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record at 17:04:468 17:03 17:04:479 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 17:04:49

10 Q Mr Remy, let's read back a portion of 17:04:5111 your prior testimony I think we can get to the 17:04:5412 bottom of -- 17:04:5613 A Fair enough 17:04:5714 Q -- this question and answer and then 17:04:5715 move on 17:04:5716 (Thereupon, the requested portion of the 17:04:5817 record was read back by the court reporter ) 17:04:5818 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 17:04:5819 Q Now, after hearing that answer -- and I 17:05:5720 think we are agreeing on what the precise answer 17:05:5921 was I was trying to get at, because it was just 17:06:0322 read back -- is your source of information for 17:06:0623 that answer the consent decree? 17:06:1324 A The context of the conversation that we 17:06:1625 had in that question was around the 17:06:19

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1 conversations that I had with Gene Marsh, one of 16:59:552 the things that we talked about that was 16:59:583 important in this conversation was an 17:00:014 acknowledgment that the information that was 17:00:045 provided in the Freeh Report demonstrated a 17:00:076 violation of the NCAA's constitution or the 17:00:107 principles that are in that constitution. 17:00:148 That was part of the discussion, because 17:00:169 when we talked about this, it was about the 17:00:18

10 back-and-forth with Gene Marsh, and you asked 17:00:2011 were there any areas that were important and I 17:00:2312 said that was one of the areas that we talked 17:00:2413 about. 17:00:2614 Q I want to -- I would like to be very, 17:00:2715 very precise with this, because maybe one of us 17:00:2816 isn't communicating well with the other or maybe 17:00:3017 we both aren't. 17:00:3218 We can go back before the break and read 17:00:3319 back the testimony and get clear. How about we 17:00:3620 do that? Because I would like to make sure I 17:00:3921 understand what you're saying. 17:00:4022 MR. HAVERSTICK: We are -- prior to the 17:00:4723 break, maybe ten minutes prior to the break, 17:00:4824 there was a question and answer about 17:00:4925 Penn State admitting to violating NCAA bylaws. 17:00:53

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1 back-and-forth. So we have to put the whole 17:06:222 thing in context. 17:06:243 My recollection is that we discussed the 17:06:254 issue of violation of NCAA principles, bylaws, 17:06:295 whatever you want to call it. And the product 17:06:336 of those discussions is the language that's in 17:06:357 the consent decree. So if you look at the 17:06:388 consent decree, that's what we ultimately got to 17:06:409 after going back and forth around the issue of 17:06:43

10 what violations occurred. 17:06:4711 Q The consent decree is the vehicle 17:06:4912 through which, based on your testimony, 17:06:5113 Penn State agreed -- accepted that there were 17:06:5414 violations of NCAA bylaws? 17:06:5815 A The consent decree reflects what we got 17:07:0116 to at the end of the day. What we were talking 17:07:0317 about there was the back-and-forth, and what my 17:07:0518 recollection was, was go to the consent decree. 17:07:0719 Let's see what it says. 17:07:1020 Q Is there any other place I can look to, 17:07:1221 to see where Penn State agreed that there were 17:07:1522 NCAA bylaws? Do you recall, for instance, any 17:07:1823 e-mail interchanges between you and Mr. Marsh 17:07:2024 where that was accepted by Penn State? 17:07:2325 A There may be. You would have to pull up 17:07:26


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1 the e-mails. I recall an e-mail where there 17:07:282 were a number of different items delineated -- I 17:07:303 don't know if it was in that e-mail or not -- 17:07:334 where it talked about acceptance of the 17:07:345 Freeh Report, you know. And I don't know 17:07:386 what -- the other things that were in that 17:07:427 e-mail. But if you pull that e-mail up, we can 17:07:448 look at and see if it's in there. 17:07:469 That is my vague recollection of where 17:07:48

10 it occurred. 17:07:5011 Q Okay. We'll look for that. And if we 17:07:5112 pull it up, we will. Any other source, though, 17:07:5413 that you can think of, as you sit here today, 17:07:5714 other than that e-mail potentially or the 17:07:5915 consent decree, reflecting acceptance by 17:08:0316 Penn State of NCAA bylaw violations? 17:08:0517 A The conversations that we had with 17:08:0818 Gene Marsh. 17:08:1019 Q Understood. 17:08:1120 I'm going to show you a document we've 17:08:1421 marked as Exhibit 21. 17:08:1522 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 21 was marked 17:08:1723 for identification purposes.) 17:08:1724 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:08:1725 Q This document reflects some of the 17:08:46

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1 as Lennon 13. I have it -- 17:09:502 A Okay. 17:09:543 Q -- if we want to take a look at it. 17:09:544 Do you -- your belief about why this 17:09:565 language was deleted was that Mr. Marsh asked 17:10:006 that it be deleted? 17:10:037 A I mean, based upon this e-mail, that's 17:10:058 what I would think. And I don't see any other 17:10:139 reason it would be -- let's look at what he says 17:10:17

10 back here. 17:10:2111 Yeah, I don't see in this e-mail where 17:10:3612 he requested that it be deleted. So I can't say 17:10:3813 for certain. But in reading this e-mail, it's 17:10:4014 kind of what I took from it. 17:10:4315 Q Okay. Why, if you recall, did NCAA 17:10:4416 agree to delete that language from the consent 17:10:4917 decree? 17:10:5118 A I don't recall. 17:10:5419 Q Do you recall over how many days the 17:11:1220 consent-decree concept was -- was discussed and 17:11:1821 then finalized with Mr. Marsh? 17:11:1922 MR. JOHNSON: Your question is from the 17:11:2523 beginning of the discussion with Mr. Marsh and 17:11:2724 then the consummation of the consent decree? 17:11:3125 MR. HAVERSTICK: Sure. 17:11:32

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1 back-and-forth between you and Mr. Marsh over 17:08:472 the language in the consent decree? 17:08:513 A Yes. It's one of many e-mails that 17:08:564 reflects that. 17:08:585 Q All right. There's a note here that a 17:08:596 sentence has been deleted from in the consent 17:09:027 decree. I'll read it. "Yet, by concealing the 17:09:048 conduct in question, the university may have 17:09:089 obtained a competitive advantage over an 17:09:09

10 extended period of time." 17:09:1211 That language was deleted from the final 17:09:1412 version of the consent decree? 17:09:1813 A If you show me the final version -- I 17:09:1914 mean, this is -- I don't know at what point this 17:09:2215 is back and forth, but I'll take it, from this 17:09:2516 e-mail, that Gene requested that it be deleted 17:09:2817 and it was deleted. 17:09:3018 Q I can -- I can put a copy of the consent 17:09:3119 decree in front of you, if you'd like to see it. 17:09:3620 I think it also represented that language is not 17:09:3721 in the final version of the consent decree. 17:09:3922 A If you say it's not in there, it's not 17:09:4123 in there. 17:09:4324 Q The consent decree, just so we have it 17:09:4625 in case we need it, has been previously marked 17:09:48

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1 THE WITNESS: No. All I know is, it was 17:11:322 all day and all night. It seemed like every 17:11:333 single day. So nobody slept for days and days 17:11:354 and days. 17:11:385 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:11:396 Q Is it your recall that it occurred in a 17:11:407 relatively brief span of time? 17:11:428 A Yeah. I don't know what "brief" is. 17:11:469 But it occurred in a period of time sufficient 17:11:47

10 to actually go through the issues. But it 17:11:5011 was -- it was pretty intense in terms of time 17:11:5312 commitment toward those discussions. 17:11:5713 Q Do you recall that NCAA wanted to have 17:11:5914 the consent decree, or the discussions about the 17:12:0315 consent decree, finalized before the executive 17:12:0816 committee's August meeting? 17:12:1017 A Vaguely. You know, there was 17:12:1418 something -- I mean, that would have given us an 17:12:1619 opportunity to have a regularly scheduled 17:12:1920 meeting to talk about things. I don't know if 17:12:2221 it happened before then, because there was -- 17:12:2722 Penn State had a regularly scheduled meeting or 17:12:3023 what the reason was to conclude it on the day 17:12:3224 that we did, which is obviously before the 17:12:3525 August meeting. 17:12:38


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1 But I have some vague recollection of 17:12:392 there was a target to try to get go to that next 17:12:413 regularly scheduled meeting. 17:12:444 Q Do you recall telling Mr. Marsh that 17:12:465 NCAA desired to have the consent decree 17:12:516 finalized prior to the time that NCAA working 17:12:547 groups were going to either suggest or implement 17:12:588 some policy changes at NCAA? 17:13:019 A No. I don't have any recollection of 17:13:04

10 that. 17:13:0511 Q You don't remember saying that to him? 17:13:0512 A No. 17:13:0713 Q If Mr. Marsh testified that, in fact, 17:13:0714 you and Mr. Berst had those conversations with 17:13:1215 him, do you have any reason to believe he would 17:13:1516 be wrong about that? 17:13:1617 A That I talked about the working groups 17:13:1818 as the reason for the deadline? That doesn't 17:13:2219 sound familiar to me at all. 17:13:2520 Q You don't -- it doesn't ring a bell? 17:13:2621 A No. 17:13:2822 Q Don't remember Mr. Berst talking about 17:13:2923 it? 17:13:3124 MR. JOHNSON: You just asked a different 17:13:3125 question. Your earlier question was about him. 17:13:33

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1 on some sort of revamp of retooling of the 17:14:492 enforcement process at NCAA? 17:14:523 A Yeah. There was an enforcement working 17:14:534 group. 17:14:555 Q And what do you recall its charge being? 17:14:556 A To examine the enforcement process, to 17:15:007 make it more efficient and streamlined, to 17:15:048 examine the penalty structures and create a 17:15:099 penalty matrix to where you could see better 17:15:12

10 what the charges would be, to what a penalty 17:15:1511 might be, to just overall look at our 17:15:1912 enforcement/infractions process and improve it. 17:15:2313 Q You know, you just said something that 17:15:2814 reminded me of very early testimony you gave 17:15:3015 today. You testified this morning that there 17:15:3216 were changes in -- at the staff level for the 17:15:3517 Committee of Infractions, or the Office of 17:15:4118 Committee of Infractions. 17:15:4419 A The Office of Committee on Infractions. 17:15:4520 Q And am I remembering right that one of 17:15:4621 the changes implemented when Mr. -- is it? 17:15:4822 A Mr. McGormley? 17:15:5323 Q Yeah. Thank you. 17:15:5524 -- came in was that now staff would 17:15:5525 create bench memos for those folks sitting on 17:15:59

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1 MR. HAVERSTICK: Right. And now I'm 17:13:362 asking -- I'm asking if he doesn't recall it. 17:13:363 MR. JOHNSON: Now you're asking whether 17:13:384 he -- 17:13:395 MR. HAVERSTICK: And whether he recalls 17:13:396 Mr. Berst saying it. 17:13:397 THE WITNESS: Right. And I don't. I 17:13:418 mean, I don't recall that being related to the 17:13:429 these conversations around when we needed to 17:13:46

10 get things done at all. 17:13:4811 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:13:4912 Q At the time the consent decree was being 17:13:5113 worked out with Mr. Marsh, were there -- were 17:13:5614 there groups inside, NCAA working groups, that 17:14:0315 were reformulating some NCAA policies, that you 17:14:0716 know of? 17:14:1117 A So the working groups would have been 17:14:1418 established after the presidential retreat, 17:14:1619 which was in the summer of 2011. And I don't 17:14:2020 know when they provided their final report out, 17:14:2821 but it -- because it was staggered. But it 17:14:3022 probably was the case that some of the working 17:14:3423 groups were still meeting at this time. 17:14:3624 Q Was one of the working groups that came 17:14:3825 out of the presidential retreat process working 17:14:46

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1 the commission? 17:16:032 A Yeah. That was one of his improvements 17:16:043 to the process in that group. 17:16:054 Q Did that improvement come out of the 17:16:075 working group process, or was that a reform 17:16:106 that -- or "reform" is not the right word, but a 17:16:127 change that Mr. McGormley came up with? 17:16:168 A It was his own idea. It didn't come out 17:16:219 of a working group process. 17:16:23

10 Q Is there a -- if you know, a document or 17:16:2511 is it memorialized anywhere on NCAA's 17:16:2912 Web site -- something that would reflect what 17:16:3413 the working group did? The enforcement working 17:16:3614 group, rather. 17:16:3915 A I believe so. 17:16:4116 Q Okay. 17:16:4117 A All the information should be out there 17:16:4218 somewhere. 17:16:4619 Q It's not a secret. I mean, we could go 17:16:4620 look for it, if we wanted to? 17:16:4821 A Sure. 17:16:5022 Q I'm going to mark this as Remy 22. 17:16:5123 I'm going to ask you a question about an 17:18:0824 e-mail from you to Gene Marsh in the second 17:18:1025 page, but read -- read as much of it as you want 17:18:13


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1 before we get there. 17:18:152 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 22 was marked 17:18:163 for identification purposes.) 17:18:164 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17:19:265 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:19:266 Q Quick question about the May 29 e-mail 17:19:277 from you to Gene Marsh, that's dated 5:16 p.m. 17:19:328 I'm looking at the second sentence. "As 17:19:399 a heads-up, we may be forced to respond to 17:19:40

10 public inquiry with factual statements that 17:19:4311 heretofore we have reserved for litigation." 17:19:4612 What factual statements do you mean 17:19:5113 there? 17:19:5614 MR. JOHNSON: You're looking at me. Did I 17:20:0215 miss something? 17:20:0316 THE WITNESS: Well, it says that 17:20:0417 "heretofore, we have reserved for litigation." 17:20:0418 And to my way of thinking, you know, to the 17:20:0619 extent we were thinking about the potential of 17:20:1020 litigation down the road, this would be 17:20:1221 included in that analysis. And, ultimately, I 17:20:1522 sent this document to counsel. I don't recall 17:20:1823 it. This is the first time I'm looking at it 17:20:2224 again. 17:20:2425 To the extent that I'm not revealing any 17:20:26

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1 A I like your question, and the answer is 17:21:402 no. As I sit here today -- 17:21:423 Q You don't remember. 17:21:434 A -- I can't recall any specific factual 17:21:445 statements that were on my mind -- 17:21:476 Q Okay. 17:21:487 A -- at the time that I wrote this e-mail 17:21:498 to Gene Marsh. 17:21:509 Q All right. That -- that's really all 17:21:51

10 I'm driving at, whether you remembered what you 17:21:5211 meant by that e-mail specifically. And the 17:21:5412 answer is you don't. 17:21:5713 A I don't. 17:21:5814 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 23 was marked 17:22:1415 for identification purposes.) 17:22:1416 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:22:1417 Q We are now at Remy 23. 17:22:1518 A Okay. 17:22:3819 Q Couple questions. This document, sent 17:22:3820 on July 21, as far as you recall, attached what 17:22:4621 was the final draft and consent decree? 17:22:5322 A That's what it says here, yes. 17:22:5623 Q You don't have any reason to think that 17:22:5824 that's an error? 17:23:0025 A No. That's what the document says. 17:23:02

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1 privileged information or work product 17:20:282 information, you know, many of the things 17:20:313 that we've talked about here today in this 17:20:334 deposition, we haven't talked about 17:20:365 generically or publicly, in any way, shape, 17:20:396 or form. And I believe that I'm providing 17:20:427 you with factual information, honest 17:20:458 information, in response to your questions. 17:20:479 So I don't know if that answers this. 17:20:50

10 But, you know, to the extent that this 17:20:5411 article and the people quoted in this article 17:20:5612 are misrepresenting what actually happened 17:20:5913 during the time of the discussions around the 17:21:0314 consent decree and the actual agreement at 17:21:0615 the end of the day, of the consent decree, 17:21:0916 this approach to this by the litigants may 17:21:1417 result in us having to respond to that, and 17:21:1718 perhaps even in a public fashion. 17:21:2019 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:21:2220 Q If you -- as you sit here today, do you 17:21:2321 remember what specific factual statements you 17:21:2622 refer to in this e-mail, that you cite to 17:21:2923 Gene Marsh to communicate that there are factual 17:21:3224 statements, that "If this doesn't stop, we are 17:21:3525 going to have to be public about it"? 17:21:37

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1 Q As of this date, at least, you write 17:23:062 that there -- that major substantive changes 17:23:123 likely will not be acceptable. 17:23:154 Was that an accurate assessment of 17:23:175 NCAA's position at that point in time? 17:23:196 A That's what I communicated to the party 17:23:217 on the other side. This is a final draft, 17:23:248 meaning we are getting down to the final 17:23:279 stretches. So we've had our conversations 17:23:30

10 around substantive changes. So at this point, 17:23:3311 major substantive changes likely will not be 17:23:3612 acceptable. 17:23:3913 If there were changes that they came 17:23:4014 back that we thought we need to make, I suppose 17:23:4215 we would have made them. We were far down the 17:23:4416 road at that point. 17:23:4717 Q What was NCAA's interest in 17:23:4918 confidentiality of the terms of the consent 17:23:5119 decree throughout the process? It's mentioned 17:23:5420 here, for instance, in this e-mail. And I can 17:23:5721 show you others where confidentiality is 17:23:5922 discussed as something important to NCAA. 17:24:0223 A I think it was important both to the 17:24:0424 NCAA and to Penn State. This -- we were engaged 17:24:0525 in a process in an unprecedented circumstance 17:24:07


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1 where we're evaluating what our next steps are 17:24:102 and engaged in a discussion about those next 17:24:133 steps that may never come to fruition. So the 17:24:154 last thing you would want to do in that 17:24:195 context -- and I'm sure you recognize this in 17:24:216 your law practice -- is to breach the 17:24:247 confidentiality of the process in some way that 17:24:268 might have people look at it and have 17:24:299 misinformation out to the public stream or 17:24:31

10 misperceptions by those who are not to supposed 17:24:3411 to have data related to this impact the ability 17:24:3712 to have those conversations. 17:24:3813 Q Understanding that you can't speak for 17:24:4114 Penn State when you give that answer, is that 17:24:4215 answer reflective of why NCAA was interested in 17:24:4516 confidentiality for the process? 17:24:5017 A Again, I said I think both parties were 17:24:5118 interested. But we were interested indeed, 17:24:5419 because this was a confidential process, from 17:24:5620 our perspective. 17:24:5921 Q I'm going to attack a little bit to a 17:25:0422 different topic area that will be, I think, 17:25:2623 quite quick. 17:25:2824 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 24 was marked 17:26:0825 for identification purposes.) 17:26:08

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1 Mitchell that is implementing the Athletics 17:28:182 Integrity Agreement. 17:28:213 Q Does he have a particular role on the 17:28:224 monitor team -- 17:28:265 A I think -- 17:28:296 Q -- to your knowledge? 17:28:297 A I think he's their day-to-day lead. 17:28:308 Q Throughout -- when was the monitor -- 17:28:349 when was Senator Mitchell installed as the 17:28:39

10 monitor, if you remember? 17:28:4411 A After the consent decree was entered 17:28:4612 into and just before the Athletics Integrity 17:28:4813 Agreement was entered into. So the date of the 17:28:5114 consent decree was July 22nd, -3rd. 17:28:5615 MR. JOHNSON: It was finalized on the 17:29:0216 23rd. 17:29:0417 THE WITNESS: 23rd. And the date of the 17:29:0418 Athletics Integrity Agreement is August 17:29:0519 something. Yeah, I don't have all these dates 17:29:0820 right. But somewhere right before the 17:29:1221 Athletics Integrity Agreement was put in place. 17:29:1522 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:29:1723 Q Who chose Senator Mitchell as the 17:29:1824 compliance monitor? 17:29:2025 A I think the NCAA, the Big Ten, and 17:29:23

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1 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:26:082 Q This is Remy 24. 17:26:093 A Okay. 17:26:584 Q Am I correct that this e-mail reflects a 17:26:595 press conference that Governor Corbett intended 17:27:026 to hold in State College? 17:27:117 A That's what it says. 17:27:138 Q And do you recall the subject of the 17:27:149 governor's press conference? 17:27:19

10 A There's a link to a story that appears 17:27:2911 to suggest State's Sandusky turn out, in the 17:27:3112 original stream of the e-mail. So I presume it 17:27:3713 has something to do with the Sandusky matter and 17:27:4214 Paterno litigation. That's what I would posit 17:27:4615 from this e-mail. 17:27:4916 Q You don't remember. And I confess I do 17:27:5017 not have the article attached -- 17:27:5218 A Okay. 17:27:5419 Q -- to this. 17:27:5420 And then there's, injected into the 17:27:5721 e-mail stream, an e-mail from you to Charles 17:28:0122 Scheeler. Who is Charles -- who is Charles 17:28:0423 Scheeler? 17:28:0724 A He's an attorney at DLA Piper that is 17:28:1125 part of the monitor team for Senator George 17:28:15

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1 Penn State together. 17:29:252 Q Were you involved in the selection 17:29:283 process on behalf of NCAA? 17:29:294 A Yes. 17:29:325 Q Were you lead in interfacing with the 17:29:366 compliance monitor on behalf of NCAA? 17:29:417 A Once the monitor was installed? 17:29:478 Q Yes. 17:29:489 A No. Wally Renfro was. 17:29:49

10 Q Under what circumstances would you be 17:29:5211 communicating with the monitor or staff? 17:29:5412 A You asked about lead. We were so -- we 17:29:5713 were both together, communicating with the 17:29:5914 monitor, but Wally was the person that took the 17:30:0115 lead on those communications. I was with him 17:30:0416 for many of them, but not all of them. 17:30:0817 Q Why would you be writing, if you 17:30:1318 remember, to Mr. Scheeler with a question about 17:30:1519 why this press conference was being held on 17:30:2120 Penn State's campus? 17:30:2521 A You know, we would have to pull the 17:30:2722 article really to understand the context of the 17:30:3023 press conference. I just noted what I thought 17:30:3324 it would be, based upon the tagline and the -- 17:30:3525 and the HTTP line. 17:30:38


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1 But if you want me to just presume, 17:30:452 based on that, that the conference might have 17:30:463 had something to do with the Paterno lawsuit or 17:30:494 Sandusky things, in that context, the question 17:30:535 would be, is this something that Penn State 17:30:596 endorses? And, you know, if it is, then let us 17:31:017 know. If it's -- if it's not, then it certainly 17:31:068 appears that way. 17:31:089 MR. JOHNSON: I think your guess about the 17:31:10

10 subject matter may not be accurate. 17:31:1111 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:31:1312 Q And I thought -- I was just informed 17:31:1413 that this is about what I kind of thought what 17:31:1714 it was about. 17:31:2015 Do you recall this press conference 17:31:2116 being about Governor Corbett's antitrust lawsuit 17:31:2317 against NCAA? 17:31:2718 A Well, again, I made a presumption, based 17:31:2819 upon the tagline. But if you tell me that 17:31:3020 that's what it was about, then that's what it 17:31:3121 was about and I would have the same answer. 17:31:3422 Q Somebody told me that. 17:31:3623 A Okay. 17:31:3724 Q And I believe that somebody who told me. 17:31:3825 So we are both making an assumption. 17:31:39

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1 lawsuit, an antitrust lawsuit, that's been filed 17:32:572 against the NCAA, the image that would be 17:33:003 portrayed by having a press conference about 17:33:034 that lawsuit was that Penn State supported the 17:33:065 lawsuit. 17:33:096 And I suppose at some point in time, we 17:33:107 had been told that Penn State was not involved 17:33:138 at all in the lawsuit. So raising this issue to 17:33:169 Charlie Scheeler would be, you know, in the 17:33:21

10 context of, "What's going on? You guys are 17:33:2411 monitoring the activity on campus. You're 17:33:2512 examining the culture. You're examining all of 17:33:2813 the issues that are laid out in the Athletics 17:33:3114 Integrity Agreement. Does it make sense to you? 17:33:3415 And why is it the case that there's a portrayal 17:33:3716 of a desire to endorse a lawsuit against the 17:33:4117 NCAA by Penn State, when we had entered into 17:33:4618 this consent decree which talked about no 17:33:5019 lawsuits, we had entered into an Athletics 17:33:5220 Integrity Agreement which talked about 17:33:5621 examination of the culture there?" 17:33:5722 I don't read this as being about the 17:33:5823 governor. I read this as being, because you 17:34:0024 told me what the subject of the article was, 17:34:0225 about something that appears as an endorsement 17:34:04

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1 A It doesn't change -- I'm sorry. 17:31:422 Q There is a colloquy between you and 17:31:463 Mr. Scheeler in which Mr. Scheeler first writes, 17:31:484 "We can look into that" -- which -- and I 17:31:535 believe the "that" is why the press conference 17:31:566 was being held on campus. You see that? 17:31:597 A I do. 17:32:028 Q And then he -- in response to an e-mail 17:32:039 from Mr. Renfro, he, being Scheeler, writes, "We 17:32:06

10 can try to find out under what conditions the 17:32:0911 governor's office secured the space for the 17:32:1212 press conference." You see that? 17:32:1513 A I see that. 17:32:1614 Q Do you know if Mr. Scheeler or DLA Piper 17:32:1715 did look into the circumstances or conditions 17:32:2316 under which the governor's office got space at 17:32:2617 the press conference? 17:32:3118 A I don't recall. 17:32:3319 Q Why would the compliance monitor, or 17:32:3620 someone working for the compliance monitor, be 17:32:3921 looking into whether Pennsylvania's governor -- 17:32:4222 or how Pennsylvania's governor secured 17:32:4623 press-conference space? 17:32:5024 A Well, now that you've described the 17:32:5125 context, if it's about the discussion of a 17:32:53

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1 of a lawsuit. 17:34:072 Q Are you aware of other instances in 17:34:083 which Mr. Scheeler or the monitors and his staff 17:34:104 looked into -- looked into similar conduct that 17:34:195 NCAA viewed as -- as somehow not in spirit or 17:34:356 language of a consent decree? 17:34:397 MR. JOHNSON: Object to form. 17:34:438 You can answer. 17:34:439 THE WITNESS: You know, you would have to 17:34:44

10 look at the Athletics Integrity Agreement and 17:34:4611 the contract between the monitor and Penn State 17:34:4912 to examine the full scope of what their roles 17:34:5213 and responsibilities are on campus. 17:34:5514 So I don't know the answer to your 17:34:5815 question as to whether or not they looked at 17:34:5916 anything else that might have been derivative 17:35:0117 of the consent decree or Athletics Integrity 17:35:0318 Agreement. That was their set of 17:35:0619 responsibilities, and that's what they did on 17:35:0720 campus. 17:35:0921 To the extent that the NCAA would see 17:35:1022 something that might present an inconsistency 17:35:1423 with what we believed we were being informed 17:35:1824 by Penn State and what was actually 17:35:2125 occurring, then that's something that would 17:35:23


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1 be naturally raised with the monitor. 17:35:242 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:35:263 Q Do you recall any instance in which the 17:35:264 NCAA asked the monitor to investigate other 17:35:285 potential instances where Penn State was not 17:35:346 acting in the spirit or language of the consent 17:35:367 decree or the Athletic Integrity Agreement? 17:35:388 A Well, I don't think that we asked the 17:35:409 monitor to investigate anything. I'm looking at 17:35:42

10 this as just simply a question to the monitor. 17:35:4511 Charlie could have written back and 17:35:4712 said, "Hey, this is why. I don't know." So -- 17:35:4813 Q I'm asking -- I'm sorry. I'm asking 17:35:5114 you -- 17:35:5115 A So I don't know -- I'm not aware of any 17:35:5216 circumstance where we asked -- 17:35:5317 MR. JOHNSON: We have to separate your 17:35:5518 conversations or our court reporter will kill 17:35:5619 you both. 17:35:5820 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:35:5821 Q I'm asking you if you're aware of any 17:35:5922 such instance, not whether this is one. I'm 17:36:0123 asking whether you're aware of any such 17:36:0424 instance. 17:36:0625 A Can you rephrase the question? 17:36:12

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1 knowledge, anybody -- myself, Wally Renfro -- 17:37:302 would ask the monitor, "Hey, we heard about this 17:37:323 on Penn State. Can you go investigate it?" 17:37:364 No. Things didn't happen that way. 17:37:385 Q You're not aware of anybody making a 17:37:416 request of the monitor to look into an activity 17:37:447 on campus to see if it was out of line with the 17:37:478 consent decree? 17:37:529 A No. The reason I gave the long-winded 17:37:52

10 answer is because there are communications with 17:37:5611 the monitor about their monitorship, but they 17:37:5612 are not in the context of, "Hey, go look into 17:38:0013 that." 17:38:0314 Q Are your -- your, Donald Remy -- 17:38:0615 communications with the monitor regular? 17:38:0916 A They're periodic. That's the word we 17:38:2117 chose before. They're not periodic in a 17:38:2418 scheduled kind of way, except that there are 17:38:2819 requirements in the Athletics Integrity 17:38:3120 Agreement about the monitor reporting back to 17:38:3321 the NCAA and the Big Ten and to Penn State, for 17:38:3622 that matter, their findings on a periodic basis. 17:38:3923 I'm not sure what that basis is. 17:38:4324 So -- and there are also -- there also 17:38:4525 are requirements in the Athletics Integrity 17:38:47

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1 Q Are you aware of any instance in which 17:36:132 the NCAA requested the monitor or his team to 17:36:153 investigate Penn State's perceived noncompliance 17:36:204 with either the consent decree or the Athletic 17:36:265 Integrity Agreement? 17:36:296 A A couple points. One, I don't know that 17:36:337 the monitor would necessarily characterize their 17:36:358 work as investigations. 17:36:389 Two, if you think that that's what this 17:36:40

10 is, there are communications with the monitor 17:36:4411 about what's going on on campus -- those are 17:36:4812 described in the Athletics Integrity Agreement, 17:36:5013 and they are known to all -- where they may have 17:36:5214 provided information about what they're seeing, 17:36:5515 what's happening, what's not happening, not as a 17:36:5716 product of any investigation, but just simply, 17:37:0017 "This is what we're seeing on campus." And, 17:37:0218 quite candidly, most often it was favorable to 17:37:0419 an evolution of cultural change within the scope 17:37:0920 of what they can see at Penn State. 17:37:1221 So -- and that sounds like a nonanswer 17:37:1622 because I'm trying to really understand your 17:37:1923 questioning and get to what you're trying to ask 17:37:2224 me. 17:37:2425 It's not the case that the NCAA, to my 17:37:27

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1 Agreement for the athletics integrity officer at 17:38:492 Penn State to report back to the NCAA and the 17:38:533 Big Ten things that are happening on campus. So 17:38:564 to that extent, they are periodic. 17:38:585 Q What's the purpose of the periodic, sort 17:39:006 of nonformal communications between you and the 17:39:047 compliance monitor? Why do you communicate with 17:39:078 him? 17:39:109 A I don't know that I characterize any of 17:39:11

10 them as "nonformal." They are all part of the 17:39:1211 responsibility of the monitor and carrying out 17:39:1512 its duties. If you look at the Athletics 17:39:1913 Integrity Agreement, it talks about providing 17:39:2114 periodic reports about the progress or 17:39:2315 deficiencies of what they're observing on the 17:39:2616 Penn State campus. That's the way monitors 17:39:3117 work. That's -- I don't find that particularly 17:39:3418 unusual. So I'm not sure I'm understanding your 17:39:3719 question. 17:39:3920 And it's what was agreed upon in the 17:39:4021 AIA. And we received the information. 17:39:4222 Penn State's received the information. And the 17:39:4423 Big Ten receives the information of how things 17:39:4724 are evolving there. 17:39:5125 Q And identifying that it's not irregular 17:39:54


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1 for a monitor to be looking at and communicating 17:39:572 about deficiencies, it's your recall that 17:40:003 neither you nor anyone else in NCAA ever asked 17:40:024 the monitor to look into a particular deficiency 17:40:075 or perceived deficiency? 17:40:096 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form. I don't 17:40:127 think that's what he said. 17:40:138 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And I'm trying my 17:40:149 best -- and I know it's late in the day -- to 17:40:15

10 really get to your question and give you an 17:40:1711 answer. And part of my inability perhaps to 17:40:1912 communicate a clear answer is because I'm not 17:40:2313 sure what where you're going with your 17:40:2514 questioning. 17:40:2815 They are -- they are a monitor that is 17:40:2916 put in place under the Athletics Integrity 17:40:3217 Agreement. They observe activity on the 17:40:3418 campus, and they report back to three 17:40:3819 entities: The NCAA, the Big Ten, and 17:40:4020 Penn State. That's what they do. That's 17:40:4421 kind of why they're there. 17:40:4722 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:40:4823 Q I asked it the way I asked it so that 17:40:4924 there was no -- so that you didn't feel 17:40:5025 constrained by the word "investigate," that 17:40:54

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1 asked also whether the NCAA -- whether he knew 17:41:492 if anyone at the NCAA did as well. 17:41:513 BY MR. HAVERSTICK: 17:41:544 Q If I didn't, I apologize, and I ask that 17:41:545 question. So the question can be asked for both 17:41:566 you and anyone at the NCAA. 17:42:007 A Well, to my knowledge, there weren't a 17:42:058 whole host of people communicating with the 17:42:079 monitor at NCAA. It would have been myself and 17:42:09

10 Wally Renfro. There may have been others and I 17:42:1111 just don't recall that. 17:42:1312 Q Okay. 17:42:1313 A And I don't recall either of us ever 17:42:1414 putting to the monitor, "Hey, can you go look at 17:42:1815 this issue," or -- or something like that. 17:42:2216 There were conversations about what's 17:42:2717 going on on the campus and perhaps "What do you 17:42:2918 guys think about that? What are you seeing 17:42:3219 there?" But they weren't requests to go, to use 17:42:3420 this word, "investigate" or explore or look at 17:42:3721 potential deficiencies. And I don't know that I 17:42:4022 talked about it in terms of potential 17:42:4323 deficiencies, in any event. I think what I said 17:42:4624 is in their report, which occur periodically, 17:42:4825 they would talk about progress and deficiencies, 17:42:51

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1 there was either a connotation or an express 17:40:562 meaning to that word, when I asked before 17:41:003 whether there had been requests made of the 17:41:034 monitor to look into potential deficiencies by 17:41:055 Penn State. 17:41:096 A Well, I did -- when you used the word 17:41:107 "investigate," I think -- I didn't accept that 17:41:118 word for the purposes of my answer, because I 17:41:139 don't think it accurately reflects what goes on 17:41:15

10 with the monitorship. 17:41:1811 Q Then, we're probably saying the same 17:41:1912 thing. 17:41:2213 A Okay. 17:41:2214 Q So when you answered the question 17:41:2215 before, you were talking about the entire 17:41:2316 universe of communications between NCAA and the 17:41:2517 monitor about the potential deficiencies, that 17:41:2718 you -- in other words, you aren't aware or don't 17:41:3019 remember any requests to look into deficiencies, 17:41:3320 from NCAA to the monitor? 17:41:3621 MR. JOHNSON: Well, is it -- earlier the 17:41:3922 question was whether Donald made such a 17:41:4123 request, and now you're asking whether the NCAA 17:41:4524 made such a request. 17:41:4725 MR. HAVERSTICK: I'm sorry. I thought I 17:41:49

Page 2971 if they saw that 17:42:542 MR HAVERSTICK: Let's take a five-minute 17:42:563 break I want to collect where we are at, and 17:42:584 we may be done or within 3 feet of being done 17:43:015 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record at 17:43:086 17:41 17:43:107 (Thereupon, a brief recess was taken ) 17:43:118 (Thereupon, Exhibit Number 25 was marked for 17:52:429 identification purposes ) 17:52:42

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on the 17:53:0811 record at 17:51 17:53:0912 BY MR HAVERSTICK: 17:53:1113 Q A couple of cleanup, and I will be right 17:53:1214 quick with them, Mr Remy I put in front of 17:53:1515 you a document we marked as Remy 25 17:53:1716 A Okay 17:53:2217 Q While we are breaking we looked around 17:53:2218 for the e-mail we thought you may have been 17:53:2619 referring to when you were talking about the 17:53:2920 e-mail exchange between you and Mr Marsh on 17:53:3221 Penn State's acceptance of NCAA violations -- 17:53:3622 bylaw violations 17:53:3823 Is this the e-mail that you remembered 17:53:4124 might have that information in it? 17:53:4325 A It is the e-mail that I was thinking 17:53:45


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1 about. 17:53:472 Q We, I assume, can agree that there is 17:53:503 nothing in here specifically referencing Penn 17:53:524 State's acceptance of NCAA bylaws? 17:53:555 A There is not in this particular e-mail. 17:53:586 But, you know, like I said, it is just the one I 17:54:007 was thinking of, because I remember there was a 17:54:028 whole list of items that they wanted included in 17:54:059 the discussions. 17:54:09

10 Q Did you -- we are done with that one 17:54:1111 now. 17:54:1412 Did you have an understanding of whether 17:54:1513 President Erickson needed Penn State board of 17:54:1714 trustee approval before he could sign a consent 17:54:2115 decree? 17:54:2416 A I did. 17:54:2517 Q What was your understanding? 17:54:2618 A The lawyers representing Penn State told 17:54:2819 me he that had full authority to execute the 17:54:3020 consent decree. 17:54:3321 Q Did they say he had full authority 17:54:3422 because he had board approval or merely that he 17:54:3623 had full authority? 17:54:3924 A I don't recall the precise words, but 17:54:4425 with respect to the process that they used to 17:54:46

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1 are two very passionate men, who believe in 17:55:522 their principles and their positions and were 17:55:553 not afraid to articulate them to one another. 17:55:594 It's a fair way to communicate in my book. 17:56:025 Q I think I understand the answer. You 17:56:056 remember debate between the two of them, for 17:56:097 lack of a better word, over whether the death 17:56:118 penalty could be applied. 17:56:139 MR. JOHNSON: I don't think that was his 17:56:15

10 answer. 17:56:1511 Q I'm sorry, I thought you said -- 17:56:1612 A No. I said not with respect to the 17:56:1813 issue you have identified but, you know... 17:56:1914 Q Got it. 17:56:2215 A The way they communicate, I appreciate 17:56:2216 because it is candid and direct. 17:56:2417 MR. HAVERSTICK: I don't have any more 17:56:3118 questions. Thank you for hanging in. I 17:56:3219 appreciate it. It's pleasure. 17:56:3420 MR. JOHNSON: No questions. 17:56:3921 MS. DOBLICK: The University doesn't have 17:56:4022 any questions. 17:56:4123 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of 17:56:4224 Media File 5 in the videotaped deposition of 17:56:4325 Donald Remy. 17:56:47

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1 ultimately finalize the consent decree, they 17:54:482 represented that he had the authority to do 17:54:523 that. 17:54:544 Q Do you recall -- I should put this word 17:54:555 in quotes, because I think someone said it -- do 17:55:036 you recall any sort of heated or vigorous 17:55:057 conversation between Gene Marsh and David Berst 17:55:098 over whether the death penalty could be imposed 17:55:129 on Penn State in this case or whether it was 17:55:16

10 applicable? 17:55:1811 A First. Have you met Gene Marsh? 17:55:2112 Q I have. 17:55:2313 A And David Berst? 17:55:2314 Q Yes. 17:55:2415 A So you can imagine the communication 17:55:2516 between the two of them? 17:55:2617 Q Somehow when they both denied there was 17:55:2818 ever a heated conversation, I find that 17:55:3119 difficult to -- 17:55:3420 A So I can't say with respect to the 17:55:3521 specific issue that you just defined, meaning 17:55:3722 whether or not the death penalty can be imposed. 17:55:4023 But the conversations were frank. They were 17:55:4424 direct. They were clear. And I don't know that 17:55:4625 I would characterize them as heated, but these 17:55:50

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1 This concludes today's deposition at 17:56:472 17:55. 17:56:493 MR. KOWALSKI: Earlier this morning we 17:59:144 were asked to review 22 redacted documents to 17:59:165 confirm their privileged designation with the 17:59:216 witness, Mr. Remy. We confirmed our privilege 17:59:247 position on 21 of the 22. 17:59:318 The Bates numbers of those documents are 17:59:339 as follows: NCAAJC6933. Next 135439, 39449, 17:59:35

10 35434, 37312, 41589, 19736, 7048, 16325, 17:59:5811 16152, 16205, 19523, 6757, 12476, 6081, 18:00:3312 11984, 16113, 6940, 12484, 14321, 14361. The 18:00:5213 one document which we determined was not 18:01:2214 privileged and produced to plaintiffs is NCAA 18:01:2715 JC14375. 18:01:3316 18:01:3517 (Whereupon, at 17:55 p.m., the18 deposition was concluded.)19

20

21

22

23

24

25


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1 CERTIFICATE2 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA3

4 I, the undersigned authority, hereby5 certify that the foregoing transcript, page 16 through 301 is a true and correct transcription of7 the deposition of Donald Remy, taken before me at8 the time and place set forth on the title page9 hereof.

10 I further certify that said11 witness was duly sworn by me according to law.12 I further certify that I am not of13 counsel to any of the parties to said cause or14 otherwise interested in the event thereof.15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF I hereunto set my16 hand and affix official seal this 20th day of17 November, 2014.18

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20 ___________________________________21 RANDI GARCIA, COURT REPORTER, RPR22 NOTARY PUBLIC23

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2 ERRATA SHEET3 NAME OF CASE:

DATE OF DEPOSITION: 4 NAME OF WITNESS: 5 Reason Codes:6 1. To clarify the record.

2. To conform to the facts.7 3. To correct transcription errors.8 Pg. Ln. Now Reads Should Read Reason9 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______

10 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______11 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______12 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______13 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______14 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______15 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______16 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______17 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______18 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______19 ___ ___ _______________ _______________ ______20

_____________________21 22

23 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME24 THIS ___ DAY OF ___________, 201425

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1 J U R A T2

3 I, , do hereby certify under4 penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing5 transcript of my deposition taken on ;6 that I have made such corrections as appear noted7 herein in ink, initialed by me; that my testimony as8 contained herein, as corrected, is true and correct.9

10 DATED this ____ day of _____________, 20 ,11 at _____________________________, .12

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17 __________________________________18 SIGNATURE OF WITNESS19

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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copied (1)78:8copies (2)151:11,12copy (4)131:9 192:5,13

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299:13day (30)31:4 32:8 34:7 51:2

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18:2 19:21 20:5,521:1 24:22 27:929:2 34:1 35:20,2436:1,5,19 39:5,8,2440:4,16,17 41:142:9 43:8 44:9,1944:19,25 46:10,1046:11,11 47:11,2348:6 50:8 53:22,2254:3,10,19 55:5,1255:16 56:6 57:1861:19 62:12,18,2163:1,6,12 65:11,1365:18 67:3 68:3,1568:23 69:15 70:4,1671:9 72:18 74:1075:22 76:4,6,14,2277:18 78:16 80:1281:3 82:10 83:4,1083:13 84:8 85:1,1485:24 89:19,22,2290:7 92:22,23 94:1895:8,17 96:13 97:397:9 98:15 101:4,24101:24 102:1103:12 104:19106:18 107:8,9110:2,10,25 111:19113:24 114:20,23115:5,16 116:9117:4 118:9 119:1120:12,12,17121:19 122:8 123:7123:20,21 124:8125:1,8,11,14,16,24126:8,8,16 127:12128:9 129:10,16,17129:22 130:6,18131:19,20 132:5,10132:17,19 133:1,2133:14,25 134:6,22134:25 135:21136:3,9,12 137:14137:17,20,23,25138:1,16,18,25140:2,3,25 141:16141:17 142:16,16142:21,23 143:14143:19,23 144:1,2,9144:20 145:23,24148:25 153:14,14153:17,22 154:22155:1,2,7,15 156:7156:9,14,16,17,17

156:24 157:5 161:3161:9,10 162:11,21162:22 163:24164:20 165:4,18,20165:20 166:1,2,3,7166:16,20 168:11168:17,19,20169:18,22 170:4,7171:14 172:1 174:5174:7,10,11,12,21174:22 175:17,21176:2,3 177:5179:18 181:18,25182:19 183:7185:11,16 186:24188:8,8,9,16,18,22189:11,11 193:18194:7,19,24 195:7195:17,17,18,23,23196:1,3,3 198:22201:2 202:14,20203:24 204:2,7205:12 210:10213:1 216:4,13,14222:11 223:15224:3,25 225:1228:2 230:16,20233:10 235:17236:20,22 239:1241:8,23 242:2,3,6243:2,18,23 245:5246:3 250:22 254:2254:2 255:16259:11 261:2,6264:23,25 265:25266:6 270:3,5271:14 272:8,11,18273:8,20 274:9,11274:20,22 275:7,8275:19 278:22279:9 280:3,12,13280:23 283:16284:19 287:18288:22 289:14290:8,12,15 291:6293:9,17 294:6295:9,18 296:11,13296:21 298:24299:24 300:9,17

door (3)5:23 85:20,23doubt (5)21:8 126:16 135:12

174:12 192:21dr (59)12:3 27:25,25 30:5

31:23 36:11 37:1,837:23,24 38:7,7,1638:17 39:6 40:5,641:13 42:6 50:14,1654:5,14,25 55:856:3 62:22,25 90:2191:10,23 93:15 94:198:21 102:22,23110:22 174:19175:10 181:3 185:6185:25 195:4 198:5202:16,16,21,22203:17,19,20204:11,12 210:17210:17 239:16,20239:21,25

draft (18)17:20 18:13,14 34:6

90:20,24 92:5,12112:8 121:9,11125:6 126:7 138:5192:7,10 280:21281:7

drafted (9)93:4 123:18 124:8,22

124:25 125:2,5126:6 181:24

drafting (4)28:1 124:4,19 128:9drafts (1)113:23draw (1)198:6driving (3)79:4 144:5 280:10duly (2)8:2 302:11duties (8)12:19 13:7 14:4,24

97:16 229:17,23293:12

dynamic (2)45:3 218:10

Ee (4)3:1,1 4:10 5:1earlier (44)25:6 40:6,14,18 52:23

56:1 66:9 67:1468:8,11 84:10 86:286:8 91:9 100:21118:23 129:25130:5,19 135:8138:22 141:11142:1 147:13

158:23 162:13,24167:10 168:18175:4 176:8 197:3217:5,17 238:5249:5 255:21256:19 260:15264:15 266:25274:25 295:21301:3

early (31)9:13 10:25 14:2 19:8

19:14 26:8 28:429:9 46:1 85:2487:20,24 90:9 92:21117:5,9,21,24138:23 146:14147:3 161:22 162:1175:18 198:3 204:9208:7 252:8 253:1255:24 276:14

easiest (1)69:22easy (1)241:11edit (2)20:7 113:5edited (2)142:12,14editorial (1)241:23edits (2)112:14 114:11educating (1)107:6education (11)140:10,15,17,24

158:5,7,13,17 197:4197:11 256:21

educational (15)106:11,15 108:2

110:6 154:24155:17 157:3160:16 163:12167:2,4 168:14171:15 175:19212:3

effect (1)81:25efficient (6)19:2 71:2 85:10 86:21

154:13 276:7effort (3)63:14 86:6 239:23efforts (1)180:3either (26)


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8:18 32:18 39:2541:7 55:23 58:683:16 88:10 143:16144:7 145:19182:24 187:25188:24 189:14192:17 194:21204:4 250:22260:22 262:19263:17 274:7 291:4295:1 296:13

electronic (1)19:3elements (1)107:19eleventh (2)2:7 3:10elicit (1)49:24eliciting (1)23:11elses (2)204:5 239:2email (97)5:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11

5:12,14,16,19,20,215:22,24,25 6:2,3,438:2 44:11 52:17,1753:4 55:4 61:2463:10 64:21 65:2,865:21 66:22 75:478:14,17 84:2590:17 92:11 93:13121:4,7 122:18123:3,12 130:24131:17 132:11,13132:23 133:3 140:7140:9 141:10,14,23145:12 151:20152:15,18,25 153:1153:15 167:14170:12 171:2 178:1178:5 179:8 269:23270:1,3,7,7,14271:16 272:7,11,13277:24 278:6279:22 280:7,11281:20 283:4,12,15283:21,21 287:8297:18,20,23,25298:5

emails (7)44:19 54:24 137:15

178:15 254:9 270:1271:3

embrace (1)

103:23emmert (38)12:3 27:25 29:15 30:5

31:23 36:11 37:1,2338:7,16 41:13 54:554:14,25 55:8 62:2262:25 91:10 98:21102:22 174:8,19175:10 181:3 185:6185:25 195:4,10,14202:16,21 203:17203:19 210:17239:17,20,21,25

emmerts (13)37:8,24 39:6 40:5

42:6 50:16 90:2191:23 93:15 94:1110:22 198:5204:11

employee (2)33:15,16empowers (1)229:13encourage (1)146:20ended (2)184:8 209:5endorse (1)288:16endorsed (1)150:2endorsement (1)288:25endorses (1)286:6ends (1)159:6enforcement (101)16:16,25 25:15,22

27:1,2,11 28:8,1234:22,22,25 35:2,394:24 95:6,12,14,2195:24 96:11 97:298:6 100:3 123:23125:10 126:5135:10 145:20,21146:3,16 147:5,16147:18,19 148:1149:3 150:13152:13 153:4157:13,20 158:2,25159:4,5,11,23182:12,14,14,15,17182:18,25 183:8,11183:13,13,22 184:1184:8,22 195:22

205:6 209:22 210:6210:16,18 211:7,13211:16,23 213:15214:11 220:3222:21 223:12,23226:14,14 232:24233:8 234:16236:22 237:3 254:4260:24,25,25 261:2261:3,4,14 262:12276:2,3,6,12 277:13

engage (19)15:22 26:15 32:14

51:6,8 72:10 84:1586:21 88:18 105:15105:21,23 107:11184:4 206:25207:16 209:14217:23 247:20

engaged (7)72:17 91:15 182:16

234:9 258:9 281:24282:2

engagement (7)52:9 81:8 87:21 94:3

161:10 176:20234:2

engagements (1)31:12engaging (3)51:9 71:1 209:19english (1)37:22ensue (1)95:12entailed (1)14:4enter (3)71:20 229:9 250:2entered (5)263:23 284:11,13

288:17,19entertain (1)216:21entire (3)35:1 218:13 295:15entirely (3)197:20 212:20 261:12entities (2)72:1 294:19entitled (1)56:18erickson (13)27:25 38:7,17 39:7

40:6 98:21 102:23202:16,22 203:20

204:12 210:17298:13

ericksonemmert (1)203:22errata (1)304:2error (1)280:24errors (1)304:7escape (1)94:13espn (1)240:6esq (8)3:3,3,4,9,9,10,19 4:3esquire (4)2:5 4:8,11 8:1essential (1)256:5establish (3)175:18 216:25 217:1established (6)27:10,15 167:7,19

208:22 275:18et (7)8:8 130:2 131:2 137:8

137:13 165:15242:24

ethical (6)106:21 146:5 153:6

159:21 160:1,12evaluate (7)21:14 48:4 56:21 71:6

102:2 104:6 212:11evaluated (1)226:19evaluates (2)157:13,23evaluating (8)102:18 120:15 150:18

207:21 211:17212:19 226:12282:1

evaluation (2)197:6 208:3eve (1)116:6event (4)121:8 254:23 296:23

302:14events (1)254:25everett (2)3:9 7:19everybody (7)

9:19 11:19,20 30:2270:6 169:12 217:16

evidence (2)64:5 265:1evolution (3)18:18 81:12 291:19evolved (3)18:1 249:9,12evolving (1)293:24exact (2)35:25 202:15exactly (7)76:23 81:7 127:13

131:8 169:18 189:5224:23

examination (5)4:12 8:4 71:1 99:18

288:21examine (9)34:18 74:25 107:2

149:8,9 255:18276:6,8 289:12

examined (3)8:2 95:2 153:5examines (1)157:20examining (5)27:19 129:9 150:9

288:12,12example (2)222:14 228:24examples (2)86:15 254:8exchange (5)76:20 166:8 171:2

216:4 297:20exchanged (1)58:3exclude (1)206:10excluded (1)19:24excluding (1)138:9exclusively (1)101:11excuse (3)244:12 245:10 253:23execute (1)298:19executive (45)12:13 13:10,17,23

14:2 16:20 55:1184:2,15 222:14224:17,19 225:9


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227:4,6,8,11 228:7228:11,22 229:7,13229:16 230:1,11,18231:4 232:4,13,22233:5,7,20 242:11243:16 244:11245:9 247:1,19248:3,20,24 249:17250:1 273:15

exemplary (1)160:5exercise (1)89:23exhibit (65)5:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11

5:12,13,14,15,16,175:19,20,21,22,23,245:25 6:2,3,4 39:152:12,22 64:16 66:378:4 90:13 92:8112:3,5 114:7120:21 122:10129:23 131:5137:23 140:5141:12 142:3 151:6151:8,12,14,21152:17,19 155:19168:25 169:1170:24 177:24178:25 187:7 240:2270:21,22 278:2280:14 282:24297:8

exhibits (5)57:12 63:16,20 129:3

198:3exist (5)103:22 165:3,5

194:17,18existence (1)75:7expect (4)8:16 56:4 197:22

198:13expectations (3)51:23 160:2,13expected (1)35:3expecting (4)91:11 199:16 201:12

205:4experience (6)33:13 45:4,4,23 86:11

96:20experiences (4)31:2,11 34:23 35:13

expert (5)95:21 98:7 99:24

213:8 252:16expertise (7)29:10,16 30:18

100:22 101:16208:16 217:15

experts (5)28:21 45:17 144:22

207:14 212:14explain (12)57:23 84:21 85:18

94:23 95:14 98:3,498:5 104:17 156:10166:2 264:4

explaining (1)156:4explanation (1)206:17explore (5)19:25 87:16 98:23

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244:13expressing (1)232:5expressly (1)146:19expulsion (1)226:7extend (1)172:12extended (1)271:10extension (1)211:2extent (13)41:24 56:16 106:8

148:9,20 207:2213:6 262:14278:19,25 279:10289:21 293:4

external (1)86:24

Ffaced (1)

33:20facing (1)241:25fact (25)21:10 39:21 50:5

55:17 56:10 69:270:7 91:16 92:1893:12 96:17 126:14130:3 133:10 169:9170:10 180:8 185:3188:2 191:7 193:12242:10 251:11263:22 274:13

factoring (1)218:25facts (13)102:5 106:13 119:15

141:4 161:17162:10,17,19 256:2257:25 258:1,6304:6

factual (9)59:23 193:14 259:4

278:10,12 279:7,21279:23 280:4

failures (2)200:13,20fair (26)22:3 23:19 30:5 33:22

37:17 55:19 56:1359:11 61:3 83:8,885:8,22 93:2 95:498:18 157:4 166:14211:24 212:1219:18 238:23260:20 263:25268:13 300:4

fairly (1)38:20fairness (3)114:4 151:2 240:13fall (1)231:25familiar (3)134:24 240:23 274:19family (2)123:11 132:12far (9)36:16 39:14 95:9

110:17 133:16149:3 242:21280:20 281:15

fashion (14)20:8 29:18 45:14 51:8

68:1 87:9 88:15156:22 228:23

229:3 231:11 234:9235:9 279:18

fashions (1)45:25fast (1)184:12faster (3)64:9,12 111:25faulkner (1)201:8favorable (1)291:18fbi (1)41:9federal (1)41:8feedback (1)142:17feel (4)96:9 238:17 241:4

294:24feels (1)241:3feet (1)297:4fellow (1)79:6fiat (2)228:1,3fifth (1)4:3figure (12)27:21 32:9 68:18

74:21,22 117:6144:7 171:4 173:23214:15 216:7 222:6

figuring (1)74:24file (4)136:23 260:8,12

300:24filed (1)288:1final (8)192:13 271:11,13,21

275:20 280:21281:7,8

finalize (1)299:1finalized (4)272:21 273:15 274:6

284:15finally (1)265:15find (10)70:22 104:4 211:23

224:6 238:14254:10 262:13287:10 293:17299:18

finding (1)190:19findings (5)189:16 193:14 200:11

259:4 292:22fine (6)57:2 64:13 67:11

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20:25 26:24 36:1536:16,19 37:24 38:438:13 39:5,15,2141:15 43:8 44:2249:23 51:5 52:1753:24 64:20 68:2069:2 70:11 79:21116:4,10 122:22127:16 131:11139:7 151:12,15,19151:21 164:1173:22,24 178:14179:17 180:7181:11 187:11192:24 193:3,6200:8 201:22 204:8208:7 209:11 230:1231:3 232:2,14234:11 237:17,20241:19 244:7 245:7246:10 247:23249:6 254:15255:11 278:23287:3 299:11

fit (1)103:25five (8)64:15 109:6 116:24

116:25 196:8,13227:23 252:11

fiveminute (1)297:2fixed (1)61:2


Page 12

flesh (1)59:7flip (2)155:20 156:18fluid (1)248:14focused (2)101:1 148:5folded (1)107:22folks (26)11:17 16:8,19 17:2,3

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follow (1)142:24following (9)140:8 143:23 157:8

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formal (2)71:21 182:24

formally (4)93:14 181:2,23

192:11format (6)18:15 19:6 131:22

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251:2,20 254:11266:8 269:9 271:15302:8

forward (60)20:7 27:2,12 28:25

30:2 41:14 43:12,1344:14 46:20 61:1569:25 70:9,20 72:372:10 75:1 80:1481:1 85:5 90:2491:4,22 92:2 98:4100:9,12 101:10105:23 106:4 111:7113:3 120:20121:18 150:23162:2 175:25184:12 198:12200:23,25 202:8,23214:16 219:22221:16 223:17,24226:9,11 228:8235:8,12 239:19245:12 247:3 249:3250:8 255:14258:17

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102:25 111:13127:5,16 128:1,13161:25 162:3 197:6198:8,17 199:17203:15 204:14

212:12 213:13227:22 234:7235:16 252:12266:14

fourth (2)153:1 237:12frame (7)18:6 26:13 41:12

53:13 204:22212:21 236:8

framework (1)197:18framing (1)47:15frank (2)201:11 299:23frazier (14)52:20 54:2,6,15 56:3

62:1,8,11,13,17,1962:23 63:1,9

free (2)126:17 238:17freeflowing (1)243:15freeh (291)41:9,17 42:7,12 43:6

43:11,12,18 44:1544:23 46:22 47:1348:9,9 50:2 52:4,4,652:8 53:7 60:1761:7,8,13,14,1862:2,23 67:21 68:668:7,12,12,19,2169:18,20,25 70:3,770:15,20 71:5 73:473:17 74:20 75:8,1878:18,20,25 79:3,579:6,8,18,20,2480:10,13,18,24 81:581:18,22 82:2,1984:15 86:1,7 87:1087:16,19 88:3,9,2389:10,12,14 90:491:13,17,25 92:1692:19 93:21,25 94:394:8,12 95:5,1596:10,16,23,24 98:398:9,25 99:6,10100:3,4,11,15,16101:19,21 102:9,11104:11,12 105:13107:4,6,12,23108:19,22 109:20111:12,14 112:13112:22 113:7,11114:18,22 115:3,14

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freely (1)222:16friday (2)81:17 143:6front (10)60:19 65:22 75:8

89:25 114:5 121:4

151:3 264:24271:19 297:14

fruitful (1)219:14fruition (1)282:3fulfilling (1)79:7full (7)76:17 200:10 244:14

289:12 298:19,21298:23

fuller (1)224:18function (2)17:18 143:17functioning (4)218:6,7,8,10functions (2)143:20,22funny (1)37:11further (12)52:8 77:19 87:16

98:23 142:24 161:1161:1 220:23 221:2222:2 302:10,12

future (2)109:10 118:3fyi (1)179:13

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70:22 87:3 99:6102:5,17 104:5123:25 126:18,19146:11 149:11161:24 162:10207:6,13 216:7

gathered (4)106:13 167:17 197:23

230:12gathering (12)17:14 58:7 71:3 91:19

121:16 124:11126:21 127:25134:3 182:7 214:7215:3

gathers (1)


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29:19geared (1)149:17gears (1)196:9gene (39)201:20,25 203:5

211:22 232:9233:18 234:2,4,14236:23 237:5,9238:12,21 240:7241:20 244:25245:12 246:25248:3 249:2,7,13,15250:12,23 254:1265:18 266:9 267:1267:10 270:18271:16 277:24278:7 279:23 280:8299:7,11

general (29)3:15 12:11 13:2,10,20

14:10 22:20 44:367:5,16 83:24 85:3109:8 115:11116:25 128:22133:16 149:7,18150:15 155:21158:19 208:12,23210:23 217:6240:25 241:4245:25

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21:11 83:16 110:7114:15 120:9,12146:22 156:23174:24,25 188:24189:15 192:18203:4 215:3 225:2228:13,18,21 230:9

generated (1)163:25generating (1)125:19generically (1)279:5genes (2)235:20 241:18genesis (3)126:2,3 203:14gentlemen (1)251:17george (1)283:25gephart (1)

3:19getting (11)18:15 37:21 49:22

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51:4 84:9 109:12189:12 193:21202:11,24 259:9273:18

giving (5)185:7 194:10 198:22

206:12 230:6glad (1)15:3glance (1)241:5go (70)8:12 9:25 20:6,10

25:4 26:17 29:2430:9 34:14 47:1551:11 53:23 57:261:9 64:9 71:272:19 73:7 84:11,1994:24 95:23 101:10102:1,4 104:19,22109:3 147:12150:17 151:13,24160:4 163:25164:25 165:17174:19 177:4181:11 201:3202:18 205:7 207:9210:15 211:8219:12 220:20221:11 222:23225:8,12 231:14,14

239:14 241:1,19,24247:4,17 254:4267:18 268:3269:18 273:10274:2 277:19 292:3292:12 296:14,19

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29:7,24 30:8,2137:3,4 42:20 44:1446:20,23 48:3 49:951:12 52:10 56:257:4,13 59:3,9,966:5 67:20 69:9,2471:6 72:10,19 75:1377:23,25 78:2 80:2382:18 84:20 85:1989:6,7,8,20,23,2390:15 91:3,7,8,1591:24,24 96:7 98:18102:3 104:22 106:4109:9 111:6 112:11114:5 115:21 117:7117:15 118:2,5121:6 122:1,5125:20 127:14128:2,14,17 131:7134:13 138:14139:10 140:15143:2 151:4 155:20161:6,24 163:1164:3,3,8 165:10168:24 169:24172:25 175:1 177:7177:9,16 180:24185:10 187:19191:25 196:25197:21 198:7,13199:11,12 200:23200:25 201:5,12,18201:23 202:1,18204:25 205:11207:9,20 209:13210:5 211:5,12214:10,12 217:21217:22,23 219:6,11219:19 222:7

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35:4 178:15,16202:8

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264:11 272:22274:24 275:3278:14 284:15286:9 289:7 290:17294:6 295:21 300:9300:20

joint (17)58:20 67:13 71:17,21

71:23 72:6,11,2373:8,24 74:1,10,1475:3,7,14 82:6

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74:9 78:17 80:482:23 83:2 84:4,1684:23 85:4,5 94:14

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judges (1)15:13judgment (5)27:1 31:3 147:17

151:25 213:22judgments (2)24:18 258:5judicial (1)17:19julie (17)12:4 34:20,21 94:14

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Kkabnick (1)3:4keep (5)66:17 177:5 238:3

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175:2 296:1know (273)8:11,16 10:16 11:18

19:25 20:11,14 21:623:25 25:6,25 26:1026:14 27:14 29:1731:10,24 32:6,1534:1 35:12,13,2536:16,19 37:2339:15 42:9,19,2543:8 44:1,25 45:946:5,16,19 47:11

48:15 49:8,8 54:5,854:12,13,14 55:3,655:12 57:19 61:2062:20 63:1,4 68:1574:7,10,17 75:15,1576:4,6,19 78:1979:21 81:13 83:184:8,16 89:11 90:790:23 92:3,22 93:1794:19 96:6,13 97:397:9,10,10,16,2498:9 103:8,13104:18,23 106:6,10106:25 109:3110:10 111:4,7112:17 113:16114:23 115:1,5,16116:9,10,11 117:14117:19 118:1,10121:19 122:8,13123:18,19,20,21,24124:10 125:13126:17 130:6131:19 132:16133:4,14,25,25134:6,11 135:14,22136:7 138:4,16141:14 142:21143:23 144:9,20145:24 148:25150:19 152:25153:22 154:22155:1 156:7,9,18,24159:4 162:11,13163:22,24 164:21165:4,24 168:12,19169:18,22 170:7171:14 172:23175:11,21 176:13176:14 178:11,14180:10,19,21,23181:18,25 182:3183:7,19 188:11,16192:20 194:7,15195:6,7,9,17,17,18196:1 201:3 202:5202:14,20 204:2,7,9208:14,20 213:20214:19 216:4,6,13216:14 221:8223:15 228:2,24230:7,21 231:23235:12,23 236:3,19236:20 239:1241:23 243:1245:12 246:6


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13:21,22 14:7 17:2019:23 20:14 21:1522:8 23:11,17 24:1525:1 55:10,24 56:1256:23 58:4,7,8,22125:11 126:9206:12,24 207:6214:21 215:16,23215:24,24,25218:11 225:23226:1 229:21 230:6235:23 261:15262:1,18

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217:19 235:11266:14

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137:5

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Qqualified (1)77:16qualifier (1)37:18quantifying (2)243:11 244:4question (135)19:21 20:19 22:2

24:19 25:15 26:2432:24 37:20 45:2

48:2 50:9,13 51:1759:16 60:19 62:1471:16 76:12,2477:10,15,18,24 82:782:15 83:1 84:19,2385:12,20 88:2 98:1398:14,17,19 102:21119:9,11 120:4122:22 124:7,23126:25 128:3,6,7129:11 131:18136:11 138:9142:13 146:18,25147:12 149:1155:11 157:18159:3,8 163:13164:9 166:10 167:9169:3 173:4,10175:6,7 177:21183:4 186:19 187:1188:17 190:1,4,17190:25 191:4,6,11192:23 195:12198:23 209:2,15211:19 213:3,18,19215:5 218:21219:18,23 220:6,22221:2,12,21 222:19223:9 225:5,13,16230:10 231:10,15233:11 238:3246:16 249:23255:1 258:14261:13 263:3267:24 268:14,25271:8 272:22274:25,25 277:23278:6 280:1 285:18286:4 289:15290:10,25 293:19294:10 295:14,22296:5,5

questioning (4)82:17 216:25 291:23

294:14questions (192)5:13 8:12 36:13 41:13

42:14,18,24 43:1144:17 48:3,12,17,2349:16,20 50:1,6,1650:22,23 51:2,5,1851:22 52:1 58:1759:7 60:25 78:9,1186:6,8 93:10,1594:5 95:3 96:498:22 99:1,5,8,11

99:15,23 102:24103:1,24 106:14110:6 111:13 121:9121:11,18,21 122:2122:3,6,17,21,24124:4,7,8,11,19,25125:12,19,25 126:4126:14,15,18 127:3127:6,21,21,24128:8,11,11,13,16128:21,24 129:10129:14,19 131:25134:4 135:9 137:8137:13,19 138:5141:6,8,12,13,15,17141:17,19 142:11142:14,18,25 146:4149:12 150:18,22154:20,25 155:4,5160:4 161:4,8,11,25162:3,6 164:2167:11,20 168:3,16171:12 181:3,23182:3 187:2,11188:4,12 189:3197:6,16,24 198:8198:17 199:17200:6,24 201:13,17201:22 202:2,10,17202:18 203:11,15203:25 204:14205:3,11 208:4211:5,7 212:12,15213:14,21 214:9217:4 224:6 226:11231:20,24 232:18234:7,25 235:11,16236:25 237:13,14237:19,23 240:21240:25 241:4 249:8256:13,14 266:14279:8 280:19300:18,20,22

quick (7)66:16 76:15 77:3

140:5 278:6 282:23297:14

quickhit (2)169:3 177:21quickly (4)8:14 158:6 168:24

203:8quite (5)146:24 203:10 263:18

282:23 291:18quiz (2)

128:14 229:14quote (3)81:20 179:4,6quoted (1)279:11quotes (2)81:21 299:5

Rr (2)3:1 303:1raised (8)42:5 127:22 150:6

160:25 161:5 181:3181:23 290:1

raising (1)288:8ramifications (1)261:22ran (1)135:22randi (4)1:25 2:8 7:13 302:21range (1)226:5raped (1)10:2rational (1)128:11rationality (1)252:24reach (2)69:18 184:5reached (1)47:23reaching (2)226:8 256:1react (1)23:4reacted (1)9:22reaction (6)9:17,18 10:8 21:19

23:24 32:12read (49)9:9,22 18:11 20:19

32:19,22 41:1956:11,18 63:1065:21 66:19 77:1077:13 78:6,12 122:6127:7,10 134:13156:18 169:11188:11 190:2,9192:1 193:1 199:3200:3,4,19 240:22246:19,21 250:14


Page 26

256:12 257:5265:10 267:18268:10,17,22 271:7277:25,25 288:22288:23 303:4 304:8

reading (4)130:3 145:11 256:11

272:13reads (8)56:16 65:3 121:8

153:2,11 178:6181:11 304:8

real (4)31:16 140:5 160:10

169:3reality (2)161:23 206:20really (29)18:5 29:4 30:24,25

32:25 46:11,19 50:850:18 63:21 95:19116:2 128:7 135:15149:19 159:3160:16 204:23207:1,6 220:11245:7,24 248:8254:19 280:9285:22 291:22294:10

realtime (9)48:24 87:4 181:13,17

181:19,21 182:4,22183:8

reason (22)9:15 42:3 57:16 87:15

112:24,25 117:13135:12 158:24170:15 178:19,20179:19 206:7 272:9273:23 274:15,18280:23 292:9 304:5304:8

reasons (2)112:10 177:4recall (231)10:21 11:7 12:7 19:9

19:13 25:11,1226:22 28:5 30:1335:20 36:21 37:6,738:18 39:5,8 40:1640:17,25 41:1,542:2,11 43:4 44:1944:21,25 46:10,1153:22,22 54:3,10,1960:15 61:19 62:1262:18,24 63:12 65:4

65:11,18 66:20 68:368:4,23 69:5,13,1569:16 72:18,25 74:575:6,10,22 80:482:11 83:2,10,13,2187:24 89:4,9,2090:9 93:23,25 94:294:10,15 96:18100:14,20 101:5,24107:4,8,9 108:4,8108:21 109:19110:2 113:24114:12,13,16,16117:2 118:14 120:5120:17,18 121:10124:9 125:8,18126:8,11,12,16128:15 129:5,10,16129:17,18,22130:18 133:17136:4,12 137:10,17138:19,23 140:3,25141:7,16,18 142:13142:16,17,23143:15,21 149:2152:17 154:22156:17 157:18160:24 161:3,10,13162:21 163:24165:20 166:16,20169:16 171:17,19172:16,18 174:5,7174:12 175:17176:22 179:6,16187:13 188:5,8,9,18188:22,23 189:11189:14,19 193:18195:23 199:5 200:8201:2 206:14214:21 215:7219:13,19,20 220:2223:10,25 227:14229:25 230:5,11,16236:1 237:4,7,20241:2 242:3,6,8,16243:2,4,18,23 245:1245:5 252:3,4,5254:12 261:1 266:1269:22 270:1272:15,18,19 273:6273:13 274:4 275:2275:8 276:5 278:22280:4,20 283:8286:15 287:18290:3 294:2 296:11296:13 298:24

299:4,6recalling (1)221:25recalls (2)119:20 275:5receipt (1)223:18receive (8)19:5 51:10 105:7

107:13 147:22165:9 191:5 242:4

received (10)61:11 74:19 182:22

184:17 185:8,22,22201:19 293:21,22

receives (1)293:23receiving (6)165:19 183:9 186:9

214:20 244:10256:20

recess (8)57:6 76:6 77:6 136:25

196:18 260:10268:6 297:7

recitation (1)224:18recite (1)196:25recognition (3)50:22 255:12 266:10recognize (2)46:3 282:5recognized (4)42:19 72:4,21 99:13recognizes (1)263:10recollection (62)38:19 41:15 43:21

44:2 53:5 56:1764:2 65:15 67:3,567:16 69:10 83:5,1583:23,24,25 85:2,388:12 108:10 117:4121:13 123:22125:12,15,16,24128:9,25 129:7130:7 131:21134:16 135:2,6,25136:1 137:14138:25 139:21143:14,25 145:1146:2 153:14,17155:8 168:21 170:5176:3 194:12202:19 219:16

243:25 244:20257:14 269:3,18270:9 274:1,9

recollections (1)21:1recommendations (1)139:12recommended (1)139:14record (39)7:16 9:2 20:16 32:22

38:6 57:3,4,7,10,2458:2 59:17 60:3,1266:6 67:14 77:4,877:13 127:10 136:8136:23 137:3,10156:2 176:25 190:9196:17,21 246:21260:9,13 268:3,5,7268:17 297:5,11304:6

recorded (2)194:16,25recording (2)194:17,18records (4)38:23 165:2 186:5

210:13recurrence (2)115:24,24redacted (6)55:8,14,14 58:2 90:16

301:4redaction (1)57:16redactions (4)57:14,25 60:22 61:1reduced (2)75:4 252:17reduction (2)252:14 255:6reed (1)4:2refer (3)53:18 265:1 279:22reference (4)53:19 63:21 141:11

265:20referenced (3)84:24 140:17 157:12references (2)83:18 144:4referencing (3)62:3 116:3 298:3referring (4)21:18 93:1 264:22

297:19refers (2)40:6 158:7reflect (9)111:5 114:11 132:1

157:25 198:11244:22 251:9252:24 277:12

reflected (7)60:5 91:2 112:11

113:2 158:19225:23 251:13

reflecting (6)112:15,17,21 178:1

225:25 270:15reflective (2)266:8 282:15reflects (16)65:8 113:20 114:15

115:19 123:2153:16 157:19158:15,18 259:25265:24 269:15270:25 271:4 283:4295:9

reform (2)277:5,6reformulating (1)275:15refresh (5)38:19 64:1 135:2,5

143:24refreshes (1)56:16refreshing (1)134:15regard (1)36:18regarding (9)9:10 10:22 36:20 37:2

37:19 53:7 60:1662:6 121:11

registered (1)2:8regular (5)35:16 37:15 176:19

254:4 292:15regularly (3)273:19,22 274:3regulation (1)103:3reject (1)255:17rejected (1)107:17related (9)


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61:1 65:22 82:18118:12 119:17148:5 150:21 275:8282:11

relates (6)71:25 142:22 150:16

160:17,22 166:5relating (1)119:8relationship (3)31:17 105:4 238:10relatively (2)158:6 273:7relay (1)73:22release (14)10:14 180:8 181:10

189:4,17 192:4,16193:22 194:4199:10 200:10,16205:14 257:12

released (23)172:22 175:23 176:9

179:7,15,17 189:24191:21,25 192:4,11192:14 193:8 194:2194:11,13 199:2,9199:11 200:7 212:6255:22,22

relevance (1)169:8relevant (4)30:19 131:25 146:6

148:19relief (1)235:15remainder (1)60:25remained (1)99:1remember (85)25:21 28:11 36:7

39:25 40:22 42:548:1 53:21 55:1656:6 60:17 62:20,2162:22 63:11 67:268:25 70:4,16 90:1994:18 101:4,15106:18 118:9122:20 129:14130:15 132:3,5,6134:22,23,25 135:1140:2 143:19 144:1144:12 145:23154:19 155:2,5,9156:16 164:15,17

164:17 169:6171:25 172:3,6,22174:21 175:15185:3,5,7 194:24196:3 198:2 202:4207:2,10 216:5221:3,11,12 223:3240:24 241:8,9242:21 243:14245:6 274:11,22279:21 280:3283:16 284:10285:18 295:19298:7 300:6

remembered (3)134:21 280:10 297:23remembering (1)276:20reminded (1)276:14remy (38)1:21 2:5 4:11 7:3 8:1

8:6 20:4 38:2557:10 59:1 81:17115:12 119:10132:10 137:2,5141:25 179:3 187:6189:8 196:20,23240:5,19 241:25246:2 260:13,15268:10 277:22280:17 283:2292:14 297:14,15300:25 301:6 302:7

renfro (9)12:4 31:19 32:10

33:12 35:11 285:9287:9 292:1 296:10

rephrase (7)20:18 49:12 127:12

161:19 210:11224:22 290:25

rephrasings (1)147:11report (110)9:8 18:13 43:12 48:9

93:5 95:6 97:14105:1 109:4 111:12111:14 118:19128:15,20,23 129:1129:11 139:2,3,8,9139:11,13 172:21175:23 176:9 178:7178:13 186:7189:16,23 190:16191:2,20,24 192:3,5

192:5,7,10,13,17,25193:4,7,22 194:10194:13 195:4196:24 197:2,23198:7,15 199:2,8200:2,7,12,17,19,21201:4,14,16 202:13203:1 205:2,5,15,19206:2,22 212:6213:25 214:19217:21 218:18223:18 226:23230:2,15 231:2247:8 248:11,12,23255:14,17,17,21256:3,4,12,12,20257:6,10,13 259:5265:7 266:2,12,17267:5 270:5 275:20293:2 294:18296:24

reported (4)1:25 109:5 234:12

261:4reporter (15)2:9 7:12,23 8:22

32:22 77:13 127:10180:15 190:3,9219:25 246:21268:17 290:18302:21

reporting (7)7:12,14 31:22 245:8

247:16 248:2292:20

reports (5)192:16 194:4 210:24

210:24 293:14represent (11)8:7 121:2 122:25

123:4,6 133:13134:18 143:2152:19,23 240:6

representation (4)59:4 77:22 90:8 92:18representatives (4)58:13 70:13 89:13

90:4represented (2)271:20 299:2representing (6)201:21 208:9 235:19

235:21 262:15298:18

request (4)207:13 292:6 295:23

295:24requested (9)32:21 77:12 127:9

190:8 246:20268:16 271:16272:12 291:2

requesting (1)141:8requests (3)295:3,19 296:19require (2)198:16 211:6required (1)91:24requirements (2)292:19,25research (1)17:19reserved (2)278:11,17resolution (14)234:6,21 237:2

238:15 248:17249:11 251:4,7,14253:22 256:2259:22 261:16263:6

resolve (3)204:15 242:13 248:10respect (26)44:14,16 59:13 68:9

87:19 104:13137:21 182:23186:10 220:22222:19 228:14229:19 234:6241:12 243:4253:13 254:6,22256:9 257:3 262:16265:5 298:25299:20 300:12

respected (1)238:8respective (1)2:11respond (34)22:2 24:11 41:13 42:6

42:17 48:3,17 49:1950:21 51:1 86:6,791:20 93:9,14 99:22129:9 141:5 146:12162:4 167:18 181:2181:23 198:16200:5 211:5 214:15230:14 231:1,1237:22 241:6 278:9

279:17responded (4)94:6 118:25 202:6

232:3responding (9)42:14,24 48:12 49:16

99:8 134:4 149:12182:3 234:25

response (35)21:19 23:5 24:19

25:19 90:20 91:7,1191:23 92:11 93:694:1 97:2 110:21111:13,15,16 112:8112:9 115:2,13142:24 157:17175:6 198:5,25200:24 201:22202:2 211:6 218:21231:5 235:10242:17 279:8 287:8

responses (3)91:24 92:14 197:6responsibilities (8)13:5 24:7 28:18 97:17

101:20 229:17289:13,19

responsibility (9)13:13 14:6,13 18:25

200:11,20 202:12202:25 293:11

responsible (2)10:7 13:11responsive (2)136:5 162:11restate (1)37:20restrictions (1)61:16result (5)203:12 213:14 226:21

248:11 279:17resulted (2)70:8 263:21results (2)108:15 136:13retained (4)43:19 75:18 98:25

104:23retaining (2)41:8,17retard (1)235:4retention (2)42:12 237:22retooling (1)


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retooling (1)276:1retreat (2)275:18,25retrieved (1)136:6revamp (1)276:1reveal (4)19:21 77:18 146:20

220:16revealing (12)76:5,8 98:14 103:10

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16:21 17:8 20:4,1525:4 26:17,20 27:2329:13 36:10 38:1039:9,13 43:24,2550:17 52:21,2453:16 54:21 55:356:21 60:9 62:463:17 74:10,10,1876:3,21 78:20 84:684:25 90:6,10 91:994:13,18 102:14104:1,22 109:14114:23 123:13,15124:5 131:7 132:21136:18 137:21139:9 141:20,22142:8 143:9,23

157:1 158:9 159:18166:13 168:5,10169:14 170:2,5186:20 189:6 190:7193:11 197:8 198:3199:21 204:1205:17 206:6 212:7217:7,8 221:4225:12 227:13238:15,25 239:18241:9,12 246:8247:12,24 248:22251:15,18 254:14257:7 264:11 271:5275:1,7 276:20277:6 280:9 284:20284:20 297:13

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263:7sanctioned (1)186:15sanctioning (2)182:23 183:25sanctions (8)184:6,9 260:22 261:9

261:18 262:9,19263:4

sandusky (34)9:6,25 21:20 23:24

25:20 32:11 36:1836:20 37:2,19 38:138:11 91:18 96:3101:8 103:21 105:1118:13,18,21,22119:8,15,18 147:16150:20 183:21186:16 217:18239:15 256:9283:11,13 286:4

sarah (1)3:10save (1)57:25saw (8)

95:1 192:7,10,24193:3,8 251:12297:1

saying (27)25:12 51:20 83:2

92:22 96:19 101:15117:14 124:22157:6 196:4 201:25207:22 211:25216:9 239:13 242:3242:6 243:19 244:8244:9 246:3 249:17266:23 267:21274:11 275:6295:11

says (27)29:23 30:7 40:9 53:8

53:8 64:1 92:25103:18 127:20131:4 135:13 170:8179:11 180:2,5,8182:18 239:13241:19,24 265:22269:19 272:9278:16 280:22,25283:7

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schedules (1)165:24scheduling (6)17:13 65:10,23 69:3,7

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273:3singleyear (1)243:12sir (1)9:5sit (14)22:10 38:18 40:15

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sitdown (1)118:15

site (1)277:12sitting (4)135:17 199:22 237:8

276:25situation (2)182:12 261:11six (1)66:2sixminute (2)177:6,15skill (1)30:19skip (3)54:23 154:11 216:25skipped (1)233:16slept (1)273:3slide (13)154:3,4,5,6,8,16,17

155:25 156:9,15,23156:25 157:7

slides (5)154:11 156:20 157:9

157:12 194:23slightly (3)58:23,25 224:22slow (3)9:1 62:15 235:4slowly (1)76:2smaller (1)186:3smart (1)30:25smith (1)4:2socalled (1)116:4socialist (1)206:5socialize (2)205:25 206:5solicit (3)24:12 109:24 124:12solicitation (2)110:2 226:1solicited (4)107:5 124:3 162:18

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100:22 101:15123:1 124:25 126:7126:9 157:6 164:21172:14 203:22207:23,23 216:1,2239:2 243:20244:16,20 286:22286:24

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sort (15)31:15 48:24 76:15

85:20 106:15174:23 189:13198:8 203:12218:21 227:25260:18 276:1 293:5299:6

sound (5)90:5 143:9 145:7

231:19 274:19sounds (10)29:13 48:20 135:4

143:11 162:12165:14 203:23238:24 245:25291:21

source (5)104:9 265:12 266:19

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199:11 203:2 249:9starting (1)231:19state (192)1:14 4:2 7:22 9:6 10:3

10:22 19:16 25:2427:7 36:12,17 37:237:8,15,16,25 39:639:17 41:4,16 42:842:17 43:23,24 44:444:16,21 46:7 47:10

48:2,8 49:15,17,2550:6,13 51:1,2561:21 68:5 69:2474:23 75:9,19 80:2581:19 86:3,5 87:987:13 88:3,7,10,2389:2 90:5,12 92:493:14 95:3,24 96:498:24 99:2,2,20,21100:2,6 101:6,9102:7,22 103:2,6,14104:4,10,23 105:9106:13 108:24111:16 112:20,22113:10 116:18118:12 121:15127:5,18 138:3,4,10138:12,18 139:4,7139:18,25 141:5146:12,16 147:6148:7 161:7,18162:4 175:24182:11,23 183:17183:25 184:5,9,10184:25 186:15197:16,22 198:16198:20 199:15200:2,9 201:16,21206:2 209:20210:23 214:8,14217:23 227:10228:14 233:21234:8,21 235:16,21236:12,16 237:16237:22 241:25242:4 251:6 252:1,6253:11 255:13,25256:7,15 258:11,15258:19 259:9,16,19259:24 260:19265:20,25 266:21267:25 269:13,21269:24 270:16273:22 281:24282:14 283:6 285:1286:5 288:4,7,17289:11,24 290:5291:20 292:3,21293:2,16 294:20295:5 298:13,18299:9

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structured (3)16:4 48:25 222:19structures (1)276:8struggling (2)186:13 236:7studies (1)160:12study (1)160:7stuff (7)10:10 98:8 145:3

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tagline (2)285:24 286:19take (41)8:25 20:10 27:9 53:2

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06 (242)7:6 8:5 9:25 10:1,2,3

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09 (1488)7:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

7:11,12,13,14,15,167:17,18,19,20,21,227:23,24,25 8:1,2,3,48:5,6,7,8,9,10,11,128:13,14,15,16,17,188:19,20,21,22,23,248:25 9:1,2,3,3,4,5,69:7,8,9,10,11,12,139:14,15,16,17,18,199:20,21,22,23,24,2510:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,910:10,11,12,13,1410:15,16,17,18,1910:20,21,22,23,2410:25 11:1,2,3,4,5,611:7,8,9,10,11,1211:13,14,15,16,1711:18,19,20,21,2211:23,24,25 12:1,212:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1012:11,12,13,14,1512:16,17,18,19,20

12:21,22,23,24,2513:1,2,3,4,5,5,6,6,713:7,8,8,9,9,10,1013:11,11,12,12,1313:13,14,14,15,1513:16,16,17,17,1813:18,19,19,20,2013:21,21,22,22,2313:23,24,24,25,2514:1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,514:6,7,8,9,10,11,1114:12,13,14,15,1614:17,18,19,20,2114:22,23,24,25 15:115:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,915:10,11,12,13,1415:15,16,17,18,1915:20,21,22,23,2415:25 16:1,2,3,4,5,616:7,8,9,10,11,1216:13,14,15,16,1716:18,19,20,21,2216:23,24,25 17:1,217:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1017:11,12,13,14,1517:16,17,18,19,2017:21,22,23,24,2518:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,918:10,11,12,13,1418:15,16,17,18,1918:20,20,21,22,2318:24,25 19:1,2,3,419:5,6,7,8,9,10,1119:12,13,14,15,1619:17,18,19,20,2119:22,23,24,25 20:120:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,920:10,11,12,13,1420:15,16,17,18,1920:20,21,22,23,2420:25 21:1,2,3,4,5,621:7,8,9,10,11,1221:13,14,15,16,1721:18,19,20,21,2221:23,24,25 22:1,222:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1022:11,12,13,14,1522:16,17,18,19,2022:21,22,22,23,2422:25 23:1,2,3,4,5,623:7,8,9,10,11,1223:13,14,15,16,1723:18,19,20,21,2223:23,24,25 24:1,224:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1024:11,12,13,14,15

24:16,17,18,19,2024:21,22,23,24,2525:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,925:10,11,12,13,1425:15,16,17,18,1925:20,21,22,23,2425:25 26:1,2,3,4,5,626:7,8,9,10,10,1126:12,13,14,15,1626:17,18,19,20,2126:22,23,24,25 27:127:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,927:10,11,11,12,1327:14,15,16,17,1827:19,20,21,22,2327:24,25 28:1,2,3,428:5,6,7,8,9,10,1128:12,13,14,15,1628:17,18,19,20,2128:22,23,24,25 29:129:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,929:10,11,12,13,1429:15,16,17,18,1929:20,21,22,23,2429:25 30:1,2,3,4,5,630:7,8,9,10,11,1230:13,14,15,16,1730:18,19,20,21,2230:23,24,25 31:1,231:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1031:11,12,13,14,1531:16,17,18,19,2031:21,22,23,24,2532:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,932:10,11,12,13,1432:15,16,17,18,1932:20,21,22,23,2432:25 33:1,2,3,4,5,633:7,8,9,10,11,1133:12,13,14,15,1633:17,18,19,20,2133:22,23,24,25 34:134:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,934:10,10,11,12,1334:14,15,16,17,1834:19,20,21,22,2334:24,25 35:1,2,3,435:5,6,7,8,9,10,1135:12,13,13,14,1535:16,17,18,19,2035:21,22,23,24,2536:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,936:10,11,12,13,1436:15,16,17,18,1936:20,21,22,23,2436:25 37:1,2,3,4,5,6


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102:9,10,11,12,13102:14,15 104:11107:20 111:15115:1 119:20120:24 126:15,22131:19 134:8 135:3137:1,15 138:13139:12 141:16143:7,7 144:2,5146:16 148:13151:6,7 153:13156:24,25 157:1,2,3157:4,5,6,7,8,9,10157:11,12,13,14,15157:16 161:6 162:3163:7 166:4 171:17174:25 177:23,24179:19 180:22184:9 186:8 187:3187:18 193:7 194:2196:13 198:14199:12 200:16201:13 207:1208:21 210:22217:13,14,19 219:6222:12 226:10228:1 229:8 233:14235:1 238:18 242:1243:9,10,11,12,13243:14,15,16,17,18243:19,20,21,22,23243:24,25 244:1,2,3244:4,5 246:23247:2,25 254:14257:19 258:22263:16 267:3,4,5,6267:7,8,9,10,11,12267:13,14,15,16,17267:18,19,20,21,22267:23,24,25 268:1268:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8268:9,10,11,12,13268:14,15,16,17,18268:19,20,21,22,23268:24,25 269:1,2,3269:4,5,6,7,8,9,10269:11,12,13,14,15269:16,17,18,19,20269:21,22,23,24,25270:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8270:9,10,11,12,13270:14,15,16,17,18270:19,20,21,22,22270:23,23,24,24,25271:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8271:9,10,11,12,13


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271:14,15,16,17,18271:19,20,21,22,23271:24,25 272:1,2,3272:4,5,6,7,8,9,9,10272:11,12,13,14,15272:16,17,18,19,20272:21,22,23,24,25273:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8273:9,10,11,12,13273:14,15,16,17,18273:19,20,21,22,23273:24,25 274:1,2,3274:4,5,6,7,8,9,10274:11,12,13,14,15274:16,17,18,19,20274:21,22,23,24,25275:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8275:9,10,11,12,13275:14,15,16,17,18275:19,20,21,22,23275:24,25 276:1,2,3276:4,5,6,7,8,9,10276:11,12,13,14,15276:16,17,18,19,20276:21,22,23,24,25277:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8277:9,10,11,12,13277:14,15,16,17,18277:19,20,21,22,23277:24,25 278:1,2,3278:4,5,6,7,8,9,10278:11,12,13,14,15278:16,17,18,19,20278:21,22,23,24,25279:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8279:9,10,11,12,13279:14,15,16,17,17279:18,19,20,21,22279:23,24,25 280:1280:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9280:10,11,12,13,14280:15,16,17,18,19280:20,21,22,23,24280:25 281:1,2,3,4281:4,5,6,7,8,9,10281:11,12,13,14,15281:16,17,18,19,20281:21,22,23,24,25282:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8282:9,10,11,12,13282:14,15,16,17,18282:19,20,21,22,23282:24,25 283:1,2,3283:4,5,6,7,8,9,10283:11,12,13,14,15283:16,17,18,19,20

283:21,22,23,24,25284:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8284:9,10,11,12,13284:14,15,16,17,18284:19,20,21,22,22284:23,24,25 285:1285:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9285:10,11,12,13,14285:15,16,17,18,19285:20,21,22,23,24285:25 286:1,2,3,4286:5,6,7,8,9,10,11286:12,13,13,14,15286:16,17,18,19,20286:21,22,23,24,25287:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8287:9,10,11,12,13287:14,14,15,16,17287:18,19,20,21,22287:23,24,25 288:1288:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9288:10,11,12,13,14288:15,16,17,18,19288:20,21,22,23,24288:25 289:1,2,3,4289:5,6,7,8,9,10,11289:12,13,14,15,16289:17,18,19,20,21289:22,23,24,25290:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8290:9,10,11,12,13290:14,15,16,17,18290:19,20,21,22,23290:24,25 291:1,2,3291:4,5,6,7,8,9,10291:11,12,13,14,15291:16,17,18,19,20291:21,22,23,24,25292:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8292:9,10,11,12,13292:14,15,16,17,18292:19,20,21,22,23292:24,25 293:1,2,3293:4,5,6,7,8,9,10293:11,12,13,14,15293:16,17,18,19,20293:21,22,23,24,25294:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8294:9,10,10,11,12294:13,14,15,16,17294:18,19,20,21,22294:23,24,25 295:1295:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9295:10,11,12,13,14295:15,16,17,18,19295:20,21,22,23,24

295:25 296:1,2,3,4296:5,6,7,8,9,10,11296:12,13,14,15,16296:17,18,19,20,21296:22,23,24,25297:1,2,3,4,5,6,6,7297:8,9,10,11,11,12297:13,14,15,15,16297:17,18,19,20,21297:22,23,24,25298:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8298:9,10,11,12,13298:13,14,15,16,17298:18,19,20,21,22298:23,24,25 299:1299:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9299:10,11,12,13,14299:15,16,17,18,19299:20,21,22,23,24299:25 300:1,2,3,4300:5,6,7,8,9,10,11300:12,13,14,15,16300:17,18,19,20,21300:22,23,24,25301:1,2,2,3,4,5,6,7301:8,9,10,17

17108 (1)3:20177 (1)5:20178 (1)5:2117th (3)38:17 146:9 167:1818 (221)5:21 7:9 17:25 18:23

19:22 20:21,2222:19,20,21,22,2322:24,25 23:1,2,3,423:5,6,7,8,9,10,1123:12 24:14 26:1527:16,17 30:1231:14 32:12 33:1434:14 35:16 39:9,1040:13,14 41:13 45:949:18 51:6 55:1058:8 59:6 60:561:23 63:5,6 66:1272:6 73:9,10 75:977:24 80:4 81:583:15 88:14 89:9102:16,17,18,19,20102:21,22,23,24,25103:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8103:9,10,18 106:2108:18 110:19

112:25 115:22116:16 117:19121:14 122:8123:23 124:21125:23 128:1 129:2131:1 132:13133:10 135:4 144:3145:25 151:8,9152:17 157:10,17157:18,19,20,21,22157:23,23,24,25158:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8158:9,14 159:25163:8 164:8 166:5168:12 169:7171:18 173:23178:14,25 179:3181:18 185:6188:20 189:22194:20 197:17198:15 201:14202:12 204:19209:23 211:22214:21 218:11221:3 225:20 230:7231:3,25 232:17233:15,16 235:2,22239:16 242:20243:15 244:6,7,8,9244:10,11,12,13,14244:15,16,17,18,19244:20,21,22,23,24244:25 245:1,2,3,4246:7 249:18250:13 251:6252:24 255:6 261:4267:9 269:22271:12 272:20274:17 277:23,24277:25 278:1,2,3,22284:1,23 289:23295:10 296:14299:10 300:12301:11,12,13,14,15301:16

187 (1)5:2219 (224)5:10,22 6:4 9:6 11:5

12:8 15:22 16:23,2420:23,24 22:3,2523:13,14,15,16,1723:18,19,20,21,2223:23,24,25 24:1,224:3,4,5,6,7 25:1727:18 28:15 29:14

30:13 36:20 37:1938:20 39:11 44:1452:5 56:9 57:861:24 63:23 66:1366:24 68:1,24 71:1173:11 77:2 85:1486:11 87:4,23 90:290:20 91:18 92:2093:17 97:21 99:15100:11 102:22103:11,12,13,14,15103:16,17,18,19,20103:21,22,23,24,25104:1,2,3,4,5109:17 111:16113:18 118:17119:21 120:25122:9,10,11,12124:22 133:11141:3,17 144:4147:16 149:10154:8 155:12158:10,11,12,13,14158:15,15,16,17,18158:19,20,21 160:1161:7 162:4 164:9167:4,5 170:9172:12 173:1175:21 176:18181:19 182:15183:13 184:10187:4,6,7 191:3193:8 194:3,21195:18 196:14,15196:21 199:13,14203:22 205:13206:10 207:2208:22 215:18217:15 221:4,5,6,7222:13 229:9 231:4234:12 235:23236:23 240:25242:2,21 244:15245:5,6,7,8,9,10,11245:12,13,14,15,16245:17,18,19,20,21245:22,23 246:8248:1 252:4 256:1256:23 257:20258:23 259:23263:17 264:19265:19 266:13268:25 271:13272:21 273:19276:11 278:4,5,6,7278:8,9,10,11,12,13


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19102 (1)3:519523 (1)301:1119736 (1)301:101md2013 (1)7:6

22 (8)5:4 6:3 37:5 52:11,12

54:13 136:23 304:620 (225)1:19 2:2 5:11,23 7:9

8:9 10:7 12:9 13:1316:25 18:1 20:2524:8,9,10,11,12,1324:14,15,16,17,1824:19,20,21,22,2324:24,25 25:1,2,3,425:5,6,7,8 29:1530:14 31:15 34:1535:17 42:12 47:948:10 49:19 54:1257:12 58:9 59:768:25 70:16 73:1274:14 75:10 77:7,2583:16 84:16 94:2596:18 100:12 101:7103:19 104:6,7,8,9104:10,11,12,12,13104:14,15,16,17,18104:19,20,21,22,23104:24,25 105:7106:3 107:1 112:6,7113:1 116:17117:20 122:13125:24 128:2 130:3131:20 134:9137:16,17 139:13148:14 150:7 154:9155:13 158:22,23158:24,25 159:1,2,3159:4,5,6,7,8,9,10159:11,12,13,14,15159:16,17 161:8167:6 168:13 169:8173:2 175:22176:19 178:15184:11 187:19189:23 196:19

200:17 204:20207:21 209:24210:23 211:23213:23 216:11221:8,9 226:11227:4 238:19239:17 240:2,5,19243:16 244:16245:24,25 246:1,2,3246:4,5,6,7,8,9,9,10246:11,12,13,14,15246:16,17,18,19,20246:21,22 248:20248:21 249:19250:14 251:7254:15 256:24,25262:19 267:10269:23 275:19278:14,15,16,17,18278:19,20,21,22,23278:24,25 279:1,2,3279:4,5,6,7,8,9,10279:11,12,18284:24 286:14291:3 303:10

20004 (1)3:112001 (1)115:232011 (26)5:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11

5:12 9:13 10:2212:25 13:1 19:952:19 53:4 65:566:21 85:25 89:1090:5 98:11 142:1261:23 275:19

2012 (24)5:16,19,20,21,22,24

6:2,4 13:8 14:218:22 146:14,14147:3 178:3 179:9179:25 180:14181:16 182:9,21183:18 186:12195:19

2013 (3)1:2 5:25 6:32014 (5)1:19 2:2 7:9 302:17

304:2420th (1)302:1621 (271)5:3,24 6:2 7:10 10:8

11:6 14:16 15:23

21:1 22:4 23:1,1924:15 25:9,10,11,1225:13,14,15,16,1725:18,19,20,21,2225:23,24,25 26:1,226:3,4,5,6 28:1634:16 40:15 41:1446:6 47:10 48:1150:12 52:6 53:854:13 56:10 57:7,857:9,10,11,12,13,1457:15,16,17,18,1957:20,21,22,23,2457:25 60:6 61:3,2563:24 65:11 66:1466:15,16 69:18 72:773:13 74:15 77:3,879:6 80:5 81:685:15 88:15 90:392:21 94:8 95:2197:22 102:1 105:1,2105:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10105:11,12,13,14,15105:16,17,18,19,20105:21 107:21109:18 111:17112:8 119:22121:15 133:12135:5 136:5 138:14138:15 142:14146:17 149:11152:18 154:10156:6 157:24159:18,19,20,21,22159:23,24,25 160:1160:2,3,4,5,6,7,8166:6 167:7 170:10171:5 173:24177:23 179:20180:23 185:7188:21 192:4 193:9194:4,22 196:20,21196:22,23,24,25197:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8197:9,10,18 199:15201:15 202:13208:23 214:22217:16 218:12219:7 220:3 224:15225:21 228:2,3230:8 231:5 232:1232:18 233:17234:13 236:24241:1 242:22245:10 246:23,24246:25 247:1,2,3,3

247:4,5,6,7,8,9,10247:11,12,13,14,15247:16,17 253:18258:24 259:24261:5 266:14270:21,22 272:10277:8 279:13,14,15279:16,17,18,19,20279:21,22,23,24,25280:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8280:9,10,11,12,13280:20 281:6 282:5284:2 285:19286:15 288:9289:24 292:16293:13 298:14299:11 301:5,7

2100 (1)5:14218 (1)3:2022 (282)5:24,25 25:18 26:7,8

26:9,10,11,12,13,1426:15,16,16,17,1826:19,20,21,22,2326:24,25 27:1,2,3,427:5,6,7 28:1730:15 35:18 38:2139:12 41:15 43:1144:15 51:7 52:1656:11 58:1,2,3,4,5,658:7,8,9,10,11,1258:13,14,15,16,1758:18,19,20,21,2258:23,24,25 59:160:7 66:25 69:170:17 71:12 72:875:11 76:6 78:180:6 81:25 82:1785:16 93:18 96:1998:20 99:16 100:13101:8 103:20105:22,23,24,25106:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8106:9,10,11,12,13106:14,15,16,17,18106:19 107:2109:19 111:18115:2 119:23,24122:14 123:24124:23,24 125:25126:16 128:3 129:3130:4 131:2,21132:14 135:6137:18 141:4 144:5

146:18 147:17155:14 156:7 159:2160:9,10,11,12,13160:14,15,16,17,18160:19,20,21,22,23160:24,25 161:9162:5 164:10 167:8168:14 169:9171:19 173:3,25175:1 176:20177:24,25 182:16183:14 186:9 187:5187:20,21 188:22192:5 196:16197:11,12,13,14,15197:16,17,18,19,20197:21,22,23,24198:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8198:9,16 203:6205:14 207:3211:24 212:22218:13 221:10,11222:14 227:5,6228:4,5 229:10,11230:9 233:18235:24 243:17244:17 245:11246:10,11,12247:18,19,20,21,22247:23,24,25 248:1248:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9248:10,11,12,13,22252:5 255:7 257:1257:21 265:20269:1 271:14273:20 274:18277:22 278:2,23279:19 280:14,15280:16,17,18,19,20280:21,22,23 284:3291:23 295:12,13295:14 296:15297:16,17 300:14300:15 301:4,7,13

225 (1)4:322nd (1)284:1423 (298)5:4 6:2 8:10,11 9:7

11:7 12:10 14:1717:1,2 18:2,2419:23 22:5 23:224:16 27:8,9,10,1127:12,13,14,15,1627:17,18,19,19,20


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27:21,22,23,24,2528:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1829:16 31:16 33:1534:17 37:20 39:1345:10 47:11,12 51:852:17 53:4,9 55:1158:10 59:2,3,4,5,6,759:8,9,10,11,12,1359:14,15,16,17,1859:19,20,21,2265:12 66:17 69:1973:14 74:16 77:478:2 80:7 81:783:17 84:17 85:1786:12 90:21 93:1995:22 97:23 101:9102:2,23 104:13105:8 106:4,20,21106:22,23,24,25107:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8107:9,10,11,12,13107:14,15,22110:20 113:2115:23 116:18117:21 119:25122:15 124:25126:17 128:4134:10 140:6,7145:3 149:12 150:8150:9 154:11155:15 158:16161:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8161:9,10,10,11,12161:13,14,15,16,17161:18,19,20,21,22162:6 163:9 166:7167:9 168:15172:13 173:4175:23 181:20184:12 189:24,25193:10 195:19196:17 197:19198:10,11,12,13,14198:15,16,17,18,19198:20,21,22,23,24198:25 199:1,2,3,4200:18 201:16206:11 207:22208:24 209:1,25213:24 215:19219:8 221:12223:17 224:16225:22 235:3,25236:25 237:25238:20 239:18240:8 241:8 242:3

242:23 248:2,14,15248:16,17,18,19,20248:21,22,23,24,25249:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8249:9,10 256:2258:25 259:25260:11 261:6,24263:18 264:20266:15 267:11269:24 276:12277:9 279:20280:14,17,24,25281:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8281:9,10,11,12,13281:14,15,16,17,18281:19,20,21284:25 286:16287:15 289:25293:14 294:12295:15 299:12,13

23947 (1)132:1523rd (4)39:12 116:7 284:16

284:1724 (284)6:3 7:11 11:8 13:14

15:24 21:2 28:8,928:10,11,12,13,1428:15,16,17,18,1928:20,21,22,23,2428:25 29:1,2,3,4,530:16 32:13 35:1940:16 41:16 42:1348:12 49:20 50:1351:9 52:7 54:1456:12 59:8,23,24,2560:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,860:9,10,11,12,13,1460:15,16,17,18,1960:20 62:1 63:765:13 69:2 74:1777:5,9 79:7 84:1887:24 91:19 92:2293:20 95:1 99:17107:16,17,18,19,20107:21,22,23,24,25108:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8108:9,10,11,12,13109:20 113:19118:18 120:1122:16 130:5131:22 134:11136:6 138:16141:18 142:15143:8 144:6 145:4

146:19 155:16156:8 159:3 160:16161:23,24,25 162:1162:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9162:10,11,12,13,14162:15,16,17,18,19162:20,21,22,23169:10 174:1178:16 179:21180:24 185:8186:10 187:6188:23 190:1 191:4192:3,6,7 193:11194:23 199:5,6,7,8199:9,10,11,12,13199:14,15,16,16,17199:18,19,20,21,22199:23,24,25 200:1200:2,3,4,5,6,7,8204:21 205:15210:24 211:25217:17 218:14220:4 222:15 227:7228:6 230:10 231:6232:19 243:18246:13 249:11,12249:13,14,15,16,17249:18,19,20,20,21249:22,23,24,25250:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8250:15 251:8252:25 253:19254:16 257:22260:12 261:7262:20 267:12269:2 278:24 281:7281:22,23,24,25282:1,2,3,4,5,6,6,7282:8,9,10,11,12,13282:14,15,16,17,18282:19,20,24 283:2288:10 290:1291:24 292:17298:15 299:14300:16 301:6

240 (1)5:2324hours (1)191:1925 (253)5:20 6:4 8:12 10:9,10

11:9 19:24 22:624:17 25:19 26:1729:6,7,8,9,10,11,1229:13,14,15,16,1729:18,19,20,21,22

29:23,24,25 30:1,230:3,4 31:17 33:1638:22 43:12 44:1653:10 55:12 57:1358:11 60:21,22,2360:24,25 61:1,2,3,461:4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1161:12,13,14,1563:25 66:18 67:172:9 73:15 75:1277:6 79:8 86:1388:16 89:10 90:491:20 92:23 94:997:24 100:14102:24 106:5 107:3108:14,15,16,17,18108:19,19,20,21,22108:23,24,25 109:1109:2,3,4,5,6,7115:23 116:19117:22 122:17125:1 126:1 128:5132:15 133:13135:7 136:7 138:17139:14 142:16145:5 147:18148:15 157:11162:7,24,25 163:1,2163:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10163:11,12,13,14,15163:16,17,18,19,20163:21,22,23,24,25164:11 167:10170:11 175:2176:21 178:3181:21 182:17183:15 184:13190:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9191:5 193:12198:17 200:9,10,11200:12,13,14,15,16200:17,18,19,20,21200:22,23,24,25201:1,2,3,4,5202:14 203:7,23209:2 210:1 212:1212:23 216:12220:5 232:2 233:19236:1 237:1 241:11242:24 244:18245:12 247:4 248:3249:21 250:9,10,11250:12,13,14,15,16250:17,18,19,20,21250:22,23 251:9252:6 257:2 262:21

262:22 263:19264:21 269:3271:15 272:22274:19 277:10282:21,22,23 285:1285:20 288:11294:13 295:16297:8,15 298:16299:15

26 (304)7:12 9:8 12:11 13:15

13:16 14:18 15:2517:3 18:3,25 21:323:20 28:19 29:1730:5,6,7,8,9,10,1130:12,13,14,15,1630:17,18,19,20,2130:22,23,24,25 31:131:2,3,4,5,6 32:1434:18 36:21 37:2139:14 40:17 41:1743:13 45:11 46:747:13 48:13 52:854:15 55:13 56:1359:9 61:16,17,18,1961:20,21,22,23,2461:25 62:1,2,3,4,5,662:7,8,9,10,11,1262:13,14,15,16,1762:18,19,20,21,2265:14 67:2 68:269:20 70:18 71:1373:16 74:18 77:1080:8 81:8 82:1883:18 87:5 95:2396:20 98:21 99:18103:21 104:14109:8,9,10,11,12,13109:14,15,16,17,18109:19,20,21,21,22109:23,24,25 110:1110:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9113:3,20 121:16123:25 129:4 130:6131:3 133:14 136:8137:19 140:8141:19 144:7 146:1148:16 149:13150:10 152:19155:17 157:25158:17 159:4161:11 164:1,2,3,4164:5,6,7,8,9,10,11164:12,13,14,15,16164:17,18,19,20,21164:22,23,24,25


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27 (271)10:11,12 11:10 12:12

21:4,5 23:3 27:2030:17 31:7,8,9,1031:11,12,13,14,1531:16,17,18,18,1931:20,21,22,23,2431:25 32:1,2,3,433:17 40:18 42:1445:12 47:14 48:1449:21 51:10 52:1953:11 54:9 56:1457:14 60:9 62:23,2462:25 63:1,2,3,4,5,663:7,8,8,9,10,11,1263:13,14,15,16,1775:13 76:7 78:1379:9 80:9 81:9 82:183:19 84:19 90:2292:24 93:21 97:25100:15 101:10

105:9 106:6 107:23110:10,11,12,13,14110:15,16,17,18,19110:20,21,21,22,23110:24,25 111:1,2,3111:4,5,6,7,8,9112:9 115:3 116:20117:23 118:19,20120:2 122:18 126:2128:6 131:23133:15 134:12135:8 138:18 141:5145:6 146:2,20147:19 148:17151:10,11 152:20153:14 154:12156:9 160:2 162:8163:10 165:3,4,5,6165:7,8,9,10,11,12165:13,14,15,16,17165:18,19,20167:11 168:17171:6 173:6 174:3175:4 176:22179:24 180:25182:18 183:16184:14 194:5197:20 198:18199:17 201:18202:4,5,6,7,8,9,10202:11,12,13,14,15202:15,16,17,18,19202:20,21,22,23,24203:24 205:16207:24 208:1 209:3210:3,25 212:2213:25 214:23217:18 229:12230:11 241:2 242:4245:13 248:4251:22,23,24,25252:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8252:9,10,11,12,13252:14,15,16 256:3257:3 259:2 260:2260:13 261:25262:23 265:21267:14 272:23273:21 278:6 281:8283:5,6,7,8,9,10,11283:12,13,14,15,16283:17,18,19,20285:21 286:17291:25 295:17296:16 301:14

270 (1)

5:24278 (1)5:2528 (281)5:12 9:9 12:13 14:19

19:1,25 21:6 22:724:18 26:18 29:1831:19 32:5,6,7,8,932:10,11,12,13,1432:15,16,17,18,1932:20,21,22,23,2432:25 33:1,2,3,4,534:19 35:20 37:2238:23 44:17 45:1352:9 53:12 55:1456:15 58:12 63:1863:19,20,21,22,2363:24,25 64:1,1,2,364:4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1164:12,13,14,15,1664:17 67:3 69:2170:19 71:14 72:1073:17 77:11,12,1379:10 83:20 85:1887:6 90:5,23 91:2192:25 94:10 95:24102:25 104:15105:10 111:10,11111:12,13,14,15,16111:17,18,19,19,20111:21,22,23,24,25112:1,2,3,4 113:4115:24 118:21122:19,20 125:2126:18 128:7133:16 137:20139:15 141:6,20142:1 143:9 149:14153:15 158:18159:5 161:12164:12 165:8,21,22165:23,24,25 166:1166:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9166:10,11,12,13,14166:15,16,17,18,19166:20,21,22169:12 170:12174:4,5 175:24179:25 181:22185:10 186:11192:9 193:14194:24 197:1,21198:19 200:20202:25 203:1,2,3,4203:5,6,7,8,8,9,10203:11,12,13,14,15

203:16 206:12208:2 212:24,25221:13 227:8 228:7232:3 233:20234:14 235:4 236:2238:1 240:9 241:3244:19 246:15251:10 252:17,18252:19,20,21,22,23252:24,25 253:1,1,2253:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10253:11,21 254:17255:9 257:24263:21 266:16267:15 270:1271:16 274:21275:20 276:13279:1 282:23283:21,22,23,24,25284:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8284:9,10,11,12,13284:14 285:2286:18 288:12290:4 292:18294:14 298:18299:17

280 (1)6:2282 (1)6:329 (254)5:14 7:13 10:13 13:17

16:1 18:4 25:2026:19 27:21 28:2033:6,7,8,9,10,11,1233:13,14,15,16,1733:18,18,19,20,2133:22,23,24,25 34:134:2,3,4,5,20 36:2236:23,24 39:1540:19 43:14 47:1548:15 54:16 59:1062:2 64:18,18,19,2064:21,22,23,24,2565:1,2 67:4 68:369:22 80:10 86:1488:17 93:1,22 95:298:22 99:19 102:3107:4 108:20,21109:22 112:5,6,7,8112:9,10,11,12,13112:14,15,16,17,18120:3 122:21 124:1126:3 130:7 136:9137:21 141:21142:17 144:8

147:20 154:13157:12 162:9163:11 166:9,23,24166:25 167:1,2,3,4167:5,6,7,8,9,10,11167:12,12,13,14,15167:16,17,18,19,20167:21,22,23,24,25168:1,18 172:14173:7 175:5 176:23181:1 182:19183:17 185:11187:23 192:10195:20 197:2,22203:17,18,19,20,21203:22,23,24,25,25204:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8204:9,10,11 205:17207:5 209:4 215:20219:10,11 220:7222:19 224:18225:24 228:8229:13 237:2239:20 241:12243:20 247:5249:22 250:16252:7 253:12,13,14253:15,16,17,18,19253:20,21,22,23,24253:25 254:1,2,3,4254:5,6,7,8 257:4260:3 262:24265:22 269:4274:22 277:11278:6 279:22 282:8283:10 284:5,6,15284:16,17,18,19,20284:21,22,23,24,25285:1,2,3,3,4,5,6,7285:8,9,10,11,12,13291:5 294:15296:17 297:19

297 (1)6:4

33 (12)5:5 40:2 52:12 66:7,9

129:4,5 137:2196:16 240:16297:4 304:7

30 (279)5:21,25 8:13 11:11

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251:11 253:2,8,22254:9,10,11,12,13254:14,15,16,17,18254:19,20,21,22,23254:24,25 255:1256:4 261:9 262:1263:22 264:22266:17 267:16270:2 271:17273:22 275:21276:14 281:9 284:7285:14,15,16,17,18285:19,20,21,22,22285:23,24,25 286:1286:2,3,4,5,19292:1 295:18298:19

300 (1)129:2301 (1)302:630th (2)179:25 183:1831 (275)9:10 14:20 22:8 23:4

24:19 29:19 30:1832:16 34:22 35:9,1035:11,12,13,14,1535:16,17,18,19,2035:21,21,22,23,2435:25 36:1,2,3,4,5,636:7,8,9,10,11,1236:13,14,25 38:2441:18 42:16 43:1547:16,17 48:1649:22 50:14 53:1354:17,18 59:1160:10 64:19 65:1666:5,6,7,8,9,10,1166:12,13,14,15,1666:17,18,19,20 67:568:4 69:3,23 70:2075:14,15 76:8 78:383:22,23 84:20 90:693:2,23 95:25 96:2198:1 101:11 102:4103:1 104:16107:24 109:23110:22 113:5,11,12113:13,14,15,16,17113:18,19,20,21,22113:23,24 114:1,2,3114:4,5,6,7,8 120:4122:22 124:2 126:4126:19 139:16140:9 150:11

153:16 159:6162:10 163:12164:13 165:9166:10 168:19169:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10169:11,12,13,14,15169:16,17,18,19,20169:21,22,23,24173:8 174:7 179:5181:23 183:18191:7 192:11 194:6194:25 199:18,19200:21 201:19205:5,6,7,8,9,10,11205:12,13,14,15,16205:17,18,19,20,21205:22,23,24,25206:1,2 207:6 211:2212:3 216:13221:14 224:19230:12 233:21235:6 239:21241:13 242:5244:20 249:23250:17 254:18255:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9255:10,11,12,13,14255:15,16,17,18257:25 259:3260:14 262:25265:23 271:18272:24 274:23,24279:2 282:9 283:11286:6,7,8,9,10,11286:12,13,14,15,16286:17,18,19,20,20286:21,22,23,24,25287:1,2,3,4,5,6,17288:13 292:19293:16 299:18300:17 301:7

32 (266)8:14 10:14 13:18

14:21 18:5 19:320:1 24:20 25:2126:20 27:22 28:2131:20 35:22 36:1536:16,17,18,19,2036:21,22,23,24,2537:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,838:25 40:20 46:9,1047:18 53:14 54:1955:15,16 58:1460:11 61:5 62:463:10 64:3,20 66:2166:22,23,24,25 67:1

67:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,967:10,11,12,13,1467:15,16,17 71:1572:12 73:20 79:1381:10 85:20 88:1890:7,24 103:22106:8 107:5,25108:22 110:23111:20 113:21114:9,10,11,12,13114:14,15,16,17,18115:5 116:22118:23,24,25 124:3129:6 131:25136:10 137:2141:22 144:9 145:7147:21 149:16151:12 152:22154:14 156:11157:13 158:2,19160:3 161:14166:11 167:13169:14,25 170:1,2,3170:4,5,6,7,8,9,10170:11,12,13,14,15170:16,17,18,19,20170:21,22,23,24175:6 178:19 181:2182:20 184:16185:12 187:24191:8 192:12195:21 197:3,23204:1,2 206:3,4,5,6206:7,8,9,10,11,12206:13,14,15,16,17206:18,19,20,21208:3 213:2 214:1214:25 218:17225:25 227:9 228:9231:8 232:5 233:22235:7 237:3 238:3238:23 241:4246:16 247:6248:25 251:12255:10,19,20,21,22255:23,24,25 256:1256:2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8256:9,10,11,12,13256:14,15,16,17262:2 264:23266:18,19 267:17272:25 273:1,23276:15 278:7279:23 285:4 287:7287:8,9,10,11,12,13287:14,15,16,17,18

287:19,20,21,22,23287:24,25 288:1292:2 294:16296:18 297:20300:18

33 (285)7:14 9:11 11:12 16:3

17:5,6 21:8 23:2232:17,18,19 33:1937:9,10,11,12,13,1437:15,16,17,18,1937:20,21,22,23,2437:25 38:1,2,3,4,5,638:7,8,9,10 39:1640:21 42:17 43:1649:23 51:12 52:1954:20 56:17 57:1559:12 62:5 64:465:17 67:6,18,19,2067:21,22,23,24,2568:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,968:10,11,12,13,1468:15,16 69:2471:16 74:20 75:1678:4,5,15 80:1182:19 83:24 86:1589:11 91:22 95:396:1,22 98:2 99:20101:12 103:2104:17 105:12109:24 111:21,22113:22 114:19,20114:21,22,23,24,25115:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8115:9,10,11,12,13115:14,15,16,17,18115:25 117:25120:5 121:18122:23 125:4 128:9129:7 130:8 135:10137:22 139:17141:23 142:18143:11 146:22152:1 154:15 159:7163:13 168:20169:15 170:25171:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8171:9,10,11,12,13174:8 175:25177:22 181:24186:13 189:1192:13 193:16195:1 198:21199:20 204:3,22205:18 206:13,22206:23,24,25 207:1


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34 (259)7:15 9:12 12:16 14:22

16:4 21:9 22:9 23:524:21 25:22 26:2127:23,24 29:2030:19 31:21 32:2035:23,24 37:2438:11,12,13,14,1538:16,17,18,19,2038:21,22,23,24,2539:1,2,3,4 41:1945:15 46:11 48:1750:15 53:15,1654:21 55:17 56:1861:6 62:6 64:565:18 68:5,17,18,1968:20,21,22,23,2468:25 69:1,2,3,4,5,669:7,8,9,10,11,2572:13 79:14 82:384:21 93:24 94:1198:23 100:17 102:5104:18 106:9 107:6108:1,23 111:23112:10 114:9,10115:6,19,20,21,22115:23,24,25 116:1116:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

119:1 127:11 131:5131:6 133:17136:11 138:20140:10 146:23149:17 150:12,13152:23 154:16155:19 156:12160:18 162:11166:12 167:14169:16 171:14,15171:16,17,18,19,20171:21,22,23,24,25172:1,2,3,4,5,6,15173:9 175:7 176:1178:20 181:3183:19 185:13187:25 199:21200:22 203:10206:14 207:17,18207:19,20,21,22,23207:24 208:1,2,3,4208:5,6,7,8,9,10,11208:12 215:1216:14 221:15223:20 224:20232:20 234:15236:4 237:4 238:24241:5,14 242:7243:1 249:1 253:3255:11 257:14,15257:16,17,18,19,20257:21,22,23,24,25258:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8258:9,10,11 259:4262:3 263:2,23266:20 270:4275:22 277:12282:10 284:8286:21 288:14,23288:24,25 289:1,2,3289:4,5,6,7,8,9,10289:11,12,13,14,15290:5 293:17294:17 296:19298:21 299:19300:19

34th (1)1:335 (280)8:15 10:15 12:17

13:19 14:23 17:718:6 20:2,3,4 24:2227:25 34:23 37:139:5,6,7,8,9,10,1139:12,13,14,15,1639:17,18,19,20,21

39:22,23,24,25 40:140:2 44:19 53:1755:18 57:16 60:1269:4,12,13,14,15,1669:17,18,19,20,2169:22,23,24,25 70:170:2,3,4,5,6,7,873:21 75:17 78:1681:11 83:25 85:2185:22 86:16 87:8,2588:19 90:8 95:496:23 99:21 103:23108:24 109:25114:11 116:10,11116:12,13,14,15,16116:17,18,19,20,21116:22,23,23,24,25117:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8117:9 118:1 122:24125:5 126:20127:12 128:10129:8 131:7 132:1132:16 134:14136:12 137:23143:12 144:10148:19 152:2162:12 163:14165:7 168:21169:17 171:7 172:7172:8,9,10,11,12,13172:14,15,16,17,18172:19,20,21176:25 178:1 180:2182:21 185:14189:2 192:14 195:2197:24 198:22199:22 201:20204:23 205:19208:4,13,14,15,16208:17,18,19,20,21208:22,23,24 209:1209:2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8209:9,10,11,12,13209:14,15,16 214:2215:2,22 224:21229:15 232:21236:5 242:8 243:2244:22 247:7254:20 256:7 258:2258:12,13,14,15,16258:17,18,19,20,21258:22,23,24,25259:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8259:9,10,11,12,13260:6,9 261:10264:24 265:25

269:6 273:3,24276:16 279:24285:24 289:5,16,17289:18,19,20,21,22289:23,24,25 290:1290:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9290:10,11,12,13,14290:15,16,17,18,19290:20,21 291:7299:20 301:9,16

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128:24,25 129:1,2,3129:4,5,6,7,8,9,10129:11,12,13,14,15129:16,17,18,19131:11 135:16137:6 138:3 142:24146:8 149:1 150:18153:1 158:6 159:14163:19 165:15167:19 170:17171:11 176:8182:10,11,12,13,14182:15,16,17,18,19182:20,21,22,23,24182:25 183:1,2,3,4183:5 184:20 188:8189:11 191:24193:21 194:1,13196:2 199:2 201:24202:21 203:14205:1 208:9 209:14214:8 217:25 218:1219:18 220:13,20220:21,22,23,24,25221:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8221:9,10,11,12,13221:14,15,16,17,18221:19,20,21,22,23221:23,24,25 222:1226:4,18 234:2237:10 240:15,16243:5 247:13 250:3250:21 252:13255:14 256:13258:7,8 267:23270:9 271:25275:10 276:21277:20 280:6284:12 285:8 287:3290:12 291:11294:22 296:24299:1

48hours (2)191:19 192:349 (235)7:21 13:25 15:9 18:13

24:3 26:2 27:2 28:429:2 31:2 36:1037:6 39:23 42:1,2443:22,23 45:2052:16,17,18,19,2052:21,22,23,23,2452:25 53:1,24 60:1666:1,2 67:14 68:1171:1 73:24 76:1678:7,23,24,25 79:1


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79:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,979:10,11,12,13,1479:15,16,17,18,1979:20,21 80:1982:25 86:2 88:690:15 91:7 93:896:7 98:9 101:17106:15 107:11111:6 114:6 116:5118:5 119:8 123:8125:11 126:9129:15,20,21,22,23129:24 130:14133:22,23 134:18135:17 137:7139:24 142:3143:17 144:15145:13 148:3149:21 153:2,20154:23 158:7 160:6163:20 164:20166:18 171:25172:1,2,19 174:14175:12 180:7 181:8182:5 183:6,7,8,9183:10,11,12,13,14183:15,16,17,18,19183:20,21,22,23,24183:25 184:1,2,3185:21 188:9190:12 191:15,16195:6 196:3 197:6200:5 201:2 205:25206:19 207:13210:12 211:9212:11 216:2,23218:22 220:14221:24 222:2,3,4,5222:6,7,8,9,10,11222:12,13,14,15,16222:17,18,19,20,21222:22,23,24,25223:1,2,3,3,4,5,6,7223:8,9,10 225:4228:17,18 230:16234:3 235:12236:10 239:5 241:9242:10 244:2 245:1248:10 251:17253:9 259:9 260:13264:5 266:4 267:24268:9 269:11272:16 275:11276:1 280:7 281:17283:15 285:9 286:3289:11 293:1

294:23 295:25296:1 301:2

4th (1)38:14

55 (17)5:6,7,7,16,20,25

52:12 64:16 66:2178:3,4 80:20,21129:5 260:12 278:7300:24

50 (223)7:1 8:20 9:18 10:21

11:20 13:1 15:1017:14 19:9 20:822:14 23:10 32:133:25 35:4 37:741:3 46:19 47:2448:24 50:3 53:2,3,453:5,6,7,8,9,10,1153:12,13,14,15,1653:17,18,19,20,2153:22,23,24,25 54:155:24 56:23 57:2358:21 61:12 62:1763:15 64:11 69:871:20 77:15 78:2079:20,22,23,24,2580:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,980:10,11,12,13,1480:15,16,17,18,1980:20,20,21,22,2380:24 81:16 82:984:5 86:21 89:1792:2 94:2 95:9 97:5100:1 101:18102:12 108:9 109:5112:15 117:5 118:6124:9 127:1 129:25130:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8130:9,10,11,12,13130:14,15,16,17,18130:19 132:7,22,23136:20 138:25146:9 150:19156:17,18 160:7161:18 162:19164:21 172:3 177:6177:7 178:5 184:4,5184:6,7,8,9,10,11184:12,13,14,15,16184:17,18,19,20,21184:22,23,24190:13,14 201:25205:2 213:9 214:9

214:10 215:9223:11,12,13,14,15223:16,17,18,19,20223:21,22,23,24,25223:25 224:1,2,3227:17 231:13232:25 234:19236:11 237:11241:10 243:6247:14 249:7254:24 260:20261:16 262:9 263:7265:6 266:24270:10 272:1273:10 277:21279:9 280:8 282:16283:16 287:23288:18 291:12294:24 298:2299:25

51 (271)5:3,4,5,6,7 7:22 9:19

9:20 14:1 21:1624:4 25:5 27:3,428:5 29:3 30:1 31:338:5 39:24 42:243:24 45:21 54:2,354:4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1154:12,13,14,15,1654:17,18,19,20,2154:22,23,24,25 55:155:2,3 59:20 62:1865:1 67:15 71:272:21 75:1,2,21,2280:21,25 81:1,2,3,481:5,6,7,8,9,10,1181:12,13,14,15,1681:17,18,19 83:184:6,7 85:2 86:387:14 88:23 93:996:8 97:6 99:3100:22 104:2105:17 106:16111:7 114:16 116:6119:9 120:14 121:6121:23 126:10128:15 129:16130:15,20,21,22,23130:24,25 131:1,2,3131:4,5,6,7,8,9,10131:11,12,13135:18 137:3 138:4139:25 144:16145:14 147:4 149:2149:22 151:15152:6 153:3 154:24

155:21 164:22165:16 166:19167:20 170:18,19170:20 172:4174:15 180:8182:25 184:21,25185:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8185:9,10,11,12,13185:14,15,16,17,18185:19,20,21,22,22185:23,24,25190:15 195:7 196:4198:6 202:22 204:9210:13 211:10212:12 216:24218:2 219:19 223:4224:4,5,6,7,8,9,10224:11,12,13,14,15224:16,17,18,19,20224:21,22,23,24,25225:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8225:9 226:5 228:19229:21 232:9 233:1239:6 245:2,20249:8 250:4 251:18254:5 256:14257:10 260:11,12260:13,14,15,16,17260:18,19,20,21,22264:6 265:7 268:10269:12 270:11271:2 272:17 274:5275:12 277:22278:12 280:9281:18 282:17284:13 287:24290:13,14 293:24296:2,25 297:11

52 (244)7:2 8:21 9:21 11:21

16:10 20:9 26:332:23,24 34:1 36:1138:6 42:25 44:2446:20 48:25 50:2251:19 52:24 53:2555:4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1155:12,13,14,15,1655:17,18,19,20,2155:22,23,24,25 56:157:5,24 62:19 64:1268:12 70:5 73:2581:20,21,22,23,2481:25 82:1,2,3,4,5,682:7,8,9,10,10,1192:3 96:9 98:1099:4 100:2 102:13

103:8 105:18107:12 110:7 113:8114:7,8 115:14124:10 130:16131:12,13,14,15,16131:17,18,19,20,21131:22,23,24,25132:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8132:8,9,24 133:24134:19 137:8 141:8144:17 145:15149:23 151:16,17151:18 152:7153:21 156:19159:15 161:19162:20 164:23,24165:17 169:22170:21 175:13177:8,9 179:10181:9 183:25 186:1186:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9186:10,11,12,13,14186:15,15,16188:10 190:16191:17 192:22200:6 201:3 206:20207:14 212:13213:10 215:10216:3 218:3 220:15221:25 223:5 225:5225:10,11,12,13,14225:15,16,17,18,19225:20,21,22,23,24225:25 226:1,2,3,4226:5,6,19 228:20228:21 230:17233:2 234:20237:12 241:18242:11 250:5255:15 259:10260:21,23,24,25261:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8261:9,10,11,12,13261:14,15,16,17,18264:7 266:25 276:2280:10 283:17285:10 288:19289:12 290:15291:13 292:8,9297:8,9 298:3 299:2300:1 301:12

53 (269)9:22 11:22,23 13:2

14:2 15:11 17:1518:14 22:15 32:234:2 35:5 37:8


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39:25 41:4 44:2547:25 52:25 55:1,2556:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,956:10,11,12,13,1456:15,16,17,18,1956:20,21,22,23,2456:24,25 57:1,2,3,458:22 60:17 61:1362:20 63:16 64:1366:3,4 74:1 75:2376:17 77:16 78:880:22 82:12,13,1482:15,16,17,18,1982:20,21,22,23,2482:25 83:1,2,3,488:7 89:18 91:894:3 97:7 104:3,24105:19 108:10114:17 116:7 118:7120:15 121:7,24124:11 127:17132:10,11,12,13,14132:15,16,17,18,19132:20,21,22,23,24132:25,25 133:1,25137:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9140:1,2,19 142:4,25143:18 146:10148:4 150:20 152:8153:4 154:25156:20 165:18,19166:20 167:21173:14 176:9 182:6183:1 184:22186:17,18,19,20,21186:22,23,24,25187:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8187:9,10 188:11189:12 192:23194:14 197:7 199:3202:1,23 204:10213:11,12 214:11216:25 219:20220:16 223:6 225:6226:7,8,9,10,11,12226:13,14,15,16,17226:18,19,20,21227:18 231:14233:3 235:13236:12 239:7 244:3245:21 247:15250:6,22 251:19252:14 253:10254:6 255:16256:15 257:11258:9 261:17,19,20

261:21,22,23,24,25262:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8262:9,10,10,11266:5 267:25273:11 276:3,22280:21 286:4 287:4287:25 290:16293:2 297:10,11,12297:13,14,15,16,17297:18,19,20,21,22297:23,24,25 298:1298:2,3,4,5

54 (305)16:11 21:17 24:5 25:6

27:5 29:4 30:2 31:432:25 35:6 38:741:5 42:3 43:1 45:146:21 50:4 51:2056:25 57:5,6 59:2166:19 67:16 69:970:6 72:22 76:1878:21 79:21 81:1783:2,5,6,7,8,9,10,1183:12,13,14,15,1683:17,18,19,20,2183:22,23,24,25 84:184:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,8,985:3 87:15 88:2491:9 92:10 93:1095:10 96:10 98:11100:23 101:19102:14 106:17109:6 111:8 112:2112:16 115:15117:6 118:8 123:9125:12 127:2129:17 133:2,3,4,5133:6,7,8,9,10,11133:12,13,14,15,16133:17,18,19,20,21133:22,23,24,25134:1,1,2,20 136:21137:10,11,12,13,14137:15,16,17,18,19137:20,21,22,23,24137:25 138:1,2,3,4138:5 139:1 140:3142:5 147:5 149:3149:24 151:19153:22 155:1 158:8160:8 161:20163:21,22 166:21170:22 172:20173:15 174:16177:10 178:6 180:9181:10 182:7 183:2

184:1 187:11,12,13187:14,15,16,17,18187:19,20,21,22,23187:24,25 188:1,2,3188:4,5,6,7,8,9,10188:11,12,13190:17 195:8 198:7200:7 208:10209:15 210:14212:14 218:4,23225:7 226:22,23,24226:25 227:1,2,3,4227:5,6,7,8,9,10,11227:12,13,14,15,16227:17,18,19229:22 230:18233:4 234:4 237:13238:11 247:16248:11 249:9262:12,13,14,15,16262:17,18,19,20,21262:22,23,24,25263:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8263:9,10 264:8,9265:8 268:11269:13 270:12272:2,3,18 274:6279:10 280:11281:19 282:18283:18,19 285:11293:25 294:25296:3,4 297:1 298:6298:7,8,9,10,11,12298:13,14,15,16,17298:18,19,20,21,22298:23,24,25 299:1299:2,3,3,4

55 (276)7:23 8:22 11:24,25

15:12 17:16 19:1020:10 22:16 23:1126:4 31:5 34:3 35:745:22,23 48:1 49:149:2 56:1 57:158:23 60:18 64:1466:20 68:13 80:2384:10,11,12,13,1484:15,16,17,18,1984:20,21,22,23,2484:25 85:1,2,3,4,586:4,22 89:19 97:899:5 104:4 107:13110:8 112:17115:16 121:8,25123:10 130:17134:3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

134:11,12,13,14,15134:16,17,18,19,20134:21 135:19136:22 138:6,7,8,9138:10,11,12,13,14138:15,16,17,18,19138:20,21,22,23,24138:25 139:1,2,2,3142:6 148:5 149:25156:21 158:9159:16 162:21164:25 166:22169:23 170:23171:12 172:5175:14 176:10184:23 185:23,24187:9 188:12,14,15188:16,17,18,19,20188:21,22,23,24,25189:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8189:9,10,11,12,13189:14,15 195:9202:2 205:3 206:1207:15 209:16211:11 214:12215:11 216:4 217:1223:7 224:1 226:20227:19,20,21,22,23227:24,25 228:1,2,3228:4,5,6,7,8,9,10228:11,12,13,14,15228:16,17,18,19,20228:21,22 229:23232:10 233:5242:12 243:7248:12 250:23251:20 254:7,25255:17 256:16258:10 261:18263:8,11,12,13,14263:15,16,17,18,19263:20,21,22,23,24263:25 264:1,2,3,4264:5,6,7,8,9,10,10264:11 267:1 276:4276:5,23,24 289:13290:17 291:14298:4 299:4,5,6,7,8299:9,10,11,12,13299:14,15,16,17,18299:19,20,21,22,23299:24,25 300:1,2,2300:3 301:2,17

555 (3)2:7 3:10 7:856 (292)

7:3,24 8:23 9:23 12:113:3 21:18 28:633:1 34:4 36:1238:8 40:1 42:4 43:243:25 45:2 46:2249:3,4 54:1 55:257:2 60:19 62:2163:17 64:15,16,1765:2 68:14 69:1071:3,21 74:2 76:1978:9 82:11 85:4,6,785:8,9,10,11,12,1385:14,15,16,17,1885:19,20,21,22,2385:24,25 86:1,2,3,486:5 87:16 91:1093:11 94:15 95:1197:9 100:3 103:9106:18 108:11109:7 111:9 112:3,4116:8 118:9 119:10122:1 123:11125:13 127:18129:18 132:9 133:1134:22,23,24,25135:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8135:9,10,11,12,13135:14,15,16,17,18135:19,20 136:24139:4,5,6,7,8,9,10139:11,12,13,14,15139:16,17,18,19,20139:21,22,23,24,25140:1,2,3 142:7,8,9150:1,21 152:9153:5,23 155:2,22162:22 165:20167:22 170:24174:17 175:15177:11 178:7179:11 182:8 183:3189:13,14,16,17,18189:19,20,21,22,23189:24,25 190:1,2,3190:4,5,6,7,8,9,10190:11,12,13,14,15190:16,17,18 197:8198:8 199:4 201:4202:24 203:15205:4 206:21208:11 212:15214:13 218:5,24219:21 220:17223:8,9 228:23,24228:25 229:1,2,3,4229:5,6,7,8,9,10,11


Page 56

229:12,13,14,15,16229:17,18,19,20,21229:22,23,24231:15 232:11234:21 235:14236:13 241:19244:4 245:3 250:7252:15 257:12259:11 263:9264:12,13,14 266:6268:12 271:3 272:4275:13 278:13279:11 280:22282:19 284:14287:5 288:20290:18 292:10,11293:3 295:1 296:5297:2 300:4,5,6,7,8300:9,10,11,12,13300:14,15,16,17,18300:19,20,21,22,23300:24,25 301:1,2

57 (237)7:25 10:22 12:2 14:3

18:15 20:11 22:1724:6 25:7 26:5 27:629:5 30:3 31:6 32:334:5 38:9 39:3,441:6 44:1 49:550:23 51:21 57:361:14 67:17 68:1570:7 72:23 75:2484:9 86:6,7,8,9,1086:11,12,13,14,1586:16,17,18,19,2086:21,22,23 88:2589:20 92:11 94:497:10 99:6 100:24104:25 105:20107:14 110:9112:18 113:9115:17 116:9 117:7119:11 120:16128:16 130:18134:2 135:21,22,23135:24,25 136:1,2,3136:4,5,6,7,8,9,10136:11,12,13,14,15136:16,17,18,19,20136:21,22,23 140:4140:5,6,7,8,9,10,11140:12,13,14,15,16140:17,18,19,20143:1 145:16146:11 147:6152:10 155:3

161:21 163:23,24165:1 167:23,24176:11 181:11183:4 184:2 186:16188:13 190:18,19190:20,21,22,23,24190:25 191:1,2,3,4191:5,6,7,8,9,10,11191:12,13,14,15,16191:17,18,18 197:9200:8 204:11 206:2210:15 211:12215:12 217:2,3218:6 224:2 225:8229:25 230:1,2,3,4230:5,6,7,8,9,10,11230:12,13,14,15,16230:17,18,19237:14 238:12240:17 245:22249:10 253:11254:8 255:1 259:12262:11 264:15,16264:17,18,19,20,21264:22,23,24,25265:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8265:9 268:13,14,15268:19 270:13273:12 280:12281:20 283:20285:12 288:1,21291:15 294:1

58 (238)8:1,2,3 13:4 14:4

15:13 16:12,13,1417:17 22:18 24:727:7 30:4 33:2 35:836:13 44:2 45:2449:6 55:3 57:4,2558:24,25 59:1,2262:22 69:11 71:4,2274:3 77:17 78:10,2281:18 83:3 86:5,2486:25 87:1,2,3,4,5,687:7,8,9,10,11,1287:13,14,15,16 88:889:1 91:11 94:1697:11 98:12 102:15103:10 104:5106:19 108:12113:10 114:18115:18 121:9123:12 136:23,24136:25 138:5 139:3140:20,21,22,23,24140:25 141:1,2,3,4

141:5,6,7,8,9,9143:2 144:18146:12 147:7 153:6153:24 156:22159:17 167:25168:1 171:13 172:6173:16 174:18175:16 180:10182:9 184:24185:25 187:10191:19,20,21,22,23191:24,25 192:1,2,3192:4,5,6,7,8,9,10192:11,12,13,14,15192:16,17,18,19,20192:21,22,23197:10 198:9203:16 208:12216:5 220:18 222:1225:9 226:6,21228:22 229:24230:19,20,21,22,23230:24,25 231:1,2,3231:4,5,6,7,8,9,10231:11,12,13,14,15231:16,16 234:5240:18 243:8 244:5245:4,23 247:17248:13 251:21252:16 255:18256:17 257:13258:11 259:13265:9,10,11,12,13265:14,15,16,17,18265:19,20,21,22,23265:24,25 266:1,2,3266:4,5,6,7,7 267:2268:1,16,17,18269:14 271:4 274:7280:13,23 283:3288:22 289:14290:19,20 293:4297:3 298:5 301:10

59 (233)7:4 9:24 12:3,4 15:14

18:16 19:11 20:1223:12 25:8 26:628:7 32:4 33:3,4,536:14 38:10 40:241:7 42:5 43:3 44:345:3 46:23 53:160:20 61:15 68:1670:8 72:24,25 74:476:20 80:24 81:1983:4 85:5 86:2387:17,18,19,20,21

87:22,23,24,25 88:188:2,3,4,5,6,7,889:21 93:12 95:1299:7 100:4 101:20105:21 107:15108:13 117:8,9118:10 120:17122:2 124:12125:14 127:3,19129:19 130:19134:21 135:20137:9 141:10,11,12141:13,14,15,16,17141:18,19,20,21,22141:23,24,25 142:1142:2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9144:19,20 147:8148:6 150:22156:23 160:25161:22 162:23163:25 165:2169:24 172:21176:12 177:12178:8 183:5 184:3189:15 192:24,25193:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8193:9,10,11,12,13193:14,15,16,17,18193:19,20,21,21195:10 196:19201:5 202:3 207:16211:13 213:13214:14 216:6220:19 223:10224:3 231:17,18,19231:20,21,22,23,24231:25 232:1,2,3,4232:5,6,7,8,9,10,11233:6 235:15236:14 237:15239:8 241:20 250:8260:22 263:10264:11 266:8,9,10266:11,12,13,14,15266:16,17,18,19,20266:21,22,23,24,25267:1,2 268:5,20270:14 271:5273:13 276:25279:12 281:21282:20 283:4285:13 286:5 287:6289:15 290:21300:3 301:3,4,5,6,7301:8,9,10

5th (2)

38:14,15

66 (10)4:13 5:8,8,19,21 66:3

89:10 90:13 143:7169:4

60 (1)253:86081 (1)301:116222 (1)3:1662538 (1)59:1965 (1)5:86757 (1)301:116940 (1)301:12

77 (13)5:9,9,22,22,24 6:2,4

73:15 90:4 92:894:7 116:15 119:24

7048 (1)301:1075 (1)163:207th (1)92:20

88 (4)5:10 112:3,5 129:480plus (1)33:1386979 (1)1:24

99 (8)1:20 2:3,10 5:11 7:10

57:5 114:7 169:2392 (1)5:998 (1)134:16

Exhibit D

Exhibit E

Exhibit F

Exhibit G

IN THE COMMONWEALTH COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA

:

:

:

1 MD 2013Jake Corman, in his official capacity as

Senator from the 34th Senatorial

District of Pennsylvania and Chair

of the Senate Committee on

Appropriations; and Robert M.

McCord, in his official capacity as

Treasurer of the Commonwealth of

Pennsylvania,

Plaintiffs

v.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association,

Defendant

v.

Pennsylvania State University,

Defendant

PROOF OF SERVICE

I hereby certify that this 24th day of November, 2014, I have served the attached document(s) to the persons on the

date(s) and in the manner(s) stated below, which service satisfies the requirements of Pa.R.A.P. 121:

Page 1 of 5 Print Date: 11/24/2014 12:51 pmPACFile 1001




PROOF OF SERVICE(Continued)

Service

Served: Doblick, Donna Marie

Service Method: eService

Email: [email protected]

Service Date: 11/24/2014

Address: 225 Fifth Avenue

Suite 1200

Pittsburgh, PA 15222

Phone: 412-.28-8.7274

Defendant Pennsylvania State UniversityRepresenting:

Served: Haar, Matthew Myers




Address: 2 North Second Street

7th Floor

Harrisburg, PA 17101

Phone: 717-257-7508

Defendant Pennsylvania State UniversityRepresenting:

Served: Langan, Jennifer




Address: 127 Finance Building


Phone: 717-787-9738

Plaintiff McCord, Robert M.Representing:

Served: Schwartz, Craig S.






Phone: 717--78-7-9737

Plaintiff McCord, Robert M.Representing:




Served: Scott, Thomas W.




Address: 218 Pine Street

P.O. Box 886

Harrisburg, PA 17108-0886

Phone: 717--23-2-1851

Defendant The National Collegiate Athletic AssociationRepresenting:




Courtesy Copy

Served: Drake, Robert Charles




Address: Robert C. Drake LLC

1525 Locust Street - 12th Floor

Philadelphia, PA 19102

Phone: 215-732-7027

Other Triponey, Vicky L.Representing:

Served: Madden, Victoria Sellitto





Office of Chief Counsel


Phone: (71-7) -705-5181

Amicus Curiae Department of Auditor GeneralRepresenting:

Served: Pankiw, Bohdan R.

Service Method: First Class Mail


Address: PA PA Utility Commission

400 Nost Cmnwlth Keystone Bldg


Phone: 717-783-3222

Amicus Curiae Public Utility CommissionRepresenting:

Served: Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association

Service Method: First Class Mail


Address: 2929 North Front St.


Phone: --

Amicus Curiae Pennsylvania District Attorneys AssociationRepresenting:



/s/ Matthew Hermann Haverstick

(Signature of Person Serving)

Person Serving: Haverstick, Matthew Hermann

Attorney Registration No: 085072

Law Firm: Conrad O'Brien PC

1500 Market Street, Centre SquareAddress: West Tower, Suite 3900

Philadelphia, PA 191021916

Plaintiff Corman, JakeRepresenting:
