Ringmer debates

13th Dec 2013

My country right or wrong?

This is one of a series of debates organised by Ringmer Liberal Democrats.

These slides have the same material as was presented at the debate. Some of the slides have notes with additional material, and links to further information are included at the end.

There is a blog post at http://acomfortableplace.blogspot.com/2014/01/ringmer-debates-my-country-right-or.html

If you want to continue the debate or ask questions, you are welcome to do so here or at the blog.

(Some individual views are expressed here, which are those of the author, Rob Parsons, and do not represent Liberal Democrat policy.)

The material is presented under several headings:

What is a nation?The nation - stateComplexity of UK identityExceptionalismMonopoly of legitimate violenceGlobalisationThe liberal view

What is a nation?

A very contested definition. The most common is that you belong in a nation if you think you do. (Anderson: Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism is very useful

here.)

Nation - state

The nation-state is most commonly thought of as having three key characteristics:

- territory-people

- government

Probably the best definition of a nation-state is that you are one if other nation-

states think you are, e.g. through the UN.

Complexity of UK identity

UK citizens have at least two identities, e.g. British and English. Wide variety of families of origin adds to the complexity.

Survey statistics

We carried out a survey of some households in Ringmer. 41 forms were

returned. We covered

- Nationality- Aspects of nationality- National identity

Nationality:

None identified as Welsh, Scottish or irish23 as English only7 as British only10 as British and English5 as European (in various combinations)

Aspects of nationality deemed most important were:- Respecting a country's institutions and laws- being born in that country- speaking the language of that country

A combination of acquired characteristics (respect for law) and ascribed (being born in a particular place), but tending towards the civic type of definition employed by the UK.

We asked if British identity had been affected by globalisation. A majority said yes, (but we did not ask them what they meant).

British identity and culture have always been very mutli-cultural. Take the case of the very English meal of fish and chips with a cup of tea.....

Nothing could be more English.....

Tea - imported from IndiaPotatoes - imported from the AmericasThe practice of frying fish in batter - brought here by Jewish refugees from Europe in the nineteenth century.

(Mushy peas probably have a local origin, but nobody actually knows)

It is not surprising really. There are, after all, only 22 countries that we have not

invaded.

“British have invaded nine out of ten countries - so look out Luxembourg” -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

(We only need Guatemala, Bolivia and Paraguay, and we've done the whole of the Americas.)

Exceptionalism

The idea that your country is better than everyone else's. Very common around the world, though particularly associated with

the USA.

This is where a liberal idea of nation pride begins to differentiate from nationalism.

Exceptionalism brings us to one of the modern ways of distinguishing how people view the world, one of the dimensions which is beginning to replace the cliché of left and right wing. This is “drawbridge up” and “drawbridge down” people. Both are responses to the more globalised world in which we live. Drawbridge up people respond by pulling up the barricades and not allowing entry to other people and ideas. Drawbridge down people do the opposite, calculating that our economy and culture both benefit from the new ideas and energy that other people bring.Picture source: http://littleyellowbrick.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/our-13th-lego-project-7946-kings-castle.html

Monopoly of legitimate violence

There is much debate about why national identity is held so strongly when for much of the time it is not salient in

day to day business.

One of the reasons is the monopoly nation-states have on the legitimate use of violence. Lots of people use violence, but no other is universally recognised as

legitimate.

??

Which brings us to the question of when we should use violence. When should we ask young men and women to try to kill and to risk being killed on our behalf?

HMS Antelope

We asked in our survey whether people thought Britain's most recent wars were

justifiable

On a scale of 0 (completely wrong) to 10 (completely right) the results were:

- Afghanistan (2000 to the present) 7 out of 10- Iraq (2003-09) 3 out of 10- Libya (2011) 3 out of 10

- Anti pirate patrolling Horn of Africa coast (2002 to the present) 5 out of 10

So only the Afghanistan war has the support (with hindsight) of a majority

We also asked in our survey, if our nation went to war, and we did not agree with the

war, would that be anti patriotic.

80% said it would not.

And finally we asked for what purposes should British troops be sent to war in future. There was a wide variety

of opinion, perhaps reflecting the difficulty our political decision makers have in deciding on specific actions.

Some thought we should only go to war in the case of direct threats to British territory. Some thought we should

go to war if necessary for humanitarian reasons anywhere in the world.

And there were a variety of shades of options in between those two.

The liberal view

Can there be a liberal form of patriotism? Manifesting patriotism does not have to be flag waving. It can be peaceably upholding

the rules and values of one's political society; it can also be manifested in being

an active social critic - it is an expression of commitment to want to improve one's

society. (For more on this, see my blog post at the link below.)

Links

I have a blog post on this topic at http://acomfortableplace.blogspot.com/2014/01/ringmer-debates-my-country-right-or.html Comments are welcome here (but you need to sign in to Slideshare) or at the blog.

Other links are available at my Diigo account, tagged “national identity”. https://www.diigo.com/search?adSScope=my&what=%22national%20identity%22&snapshot=no There are 18 items there at the moment: they will keep you going for quite a while.