simoreg f 30 fault [text] - plcs

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mhans

PLucas

mhans

PLucas

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May 18th, 2006, 10:13 AM

Hello friends,

I have 3 DC motors and 3 Simoreg 6RA70 DC drives. These motors are operating in a "continious aluminiumcasting machine" for producting strip aluminium.

2 x 60 kw for the rolls1 x 15 kw winder

For the last 1 month, the F 30 fault has been occuring at the drivers. Catalog says "commutation error"..

I ve tried :

P086 parameter : Autorestart timedefault was 0,40I made 2

P353-001 parameter : Phase fail thresdefault was 40I made 30

but it didnt work. The fault occured this morning and production has stopped again.

Why this fault occurs ? What must I do and which parameters should be changed ?

I m waiting for the experienced friends solution.

Regards,

Murat Han

May 18th, 2006, 12:10 PM

mhans

How long have these drives been installed? Have they ever worked without tripping in F30? Has the motorconnected to the offending drive been changed?

I had a similar problem a while back, my problem occurred after a drive was swapped, the new drive wasloaded with the parameter set from the old drive, it ran fine for a while but would occasionally trip out withF30, this was solved by re-optomising the drive. The drive optomisation runs are described in the start upsection of the manual.

This might help, then again it might not.

Paul

May 18th, 2006, 12:24 PM

These drivers has been installed for 6 months. And these fault has been occured for 1 - 1,5 month. They haveworked without tripping in F30 for 4 months. And I don't understand why this fault occures. Everything is ok,the parameters are same since the start-up period. But I didn't change the motors and the drivers betweenthem.

Siemens engineers said I should change the parameters P086 and P353-001. I ve changed but it didn't workand fault occured again.

PLucas ; I didn't understand what you mean with " re-optomising the drive". Can you describe it clearly ?

Thanks for you interest.

May 18th, 2006, 12:48 PM

mhans

oreg F 30 fault [Text] - PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/archive/index.php/t-22764.html

7 06/08/2013 8:33



allscott

mhans

PLucas

Next time the fault occurs, have a look at visualisation parameter r047 index 1, this will contain a number (1to 4) which will give you an extra clue to the cause of the fault.

I am still trying to work out why the Siemens Engineer told you to change parameters that are to do with the3 phase supply, when F30 points to a problem on the DC side, I must be missing something here.

The optomisation runs for the drive are made so that the drive can 'learn' about the motor it is attached to,such as armature resistance and inductance. The procedure for carrying out the various optomisation runs isdescribed in the start up section of the manual.

Do you have the manual for this drive?

Paul

May 19th, 2006, 01:05 AM

Does this happen to be one of the 2 60KW units? If so you could try swapping either the motors or the drives,it is possible with a commutation fault that you might have a motor problem.

May 19th, 2006, 05:16 AM

yes i have a manual of this drive , PLucas. And I'll look at the r047 when the fault occurs again.

allscott ; this fault occured once at the both of two 60 kW drives and once at the 15 kW drives.

1st time both 60 kW drivers2nd time only at the 15 kW driver3rd time both 60 kW drivers4th time only at the 15 kW driver...

last time one of the 60 kW driver

It has been the 8th time this fault occured for 1 - 1,5 months.But it seems everything is OK with DC motors. Connections, armature, brushes are OK.

Do you thing this fault is about the "firing angle" or the "delay time" ??

Regards ,

May 19th, 2006, 08:15 AM

Do you thing this fault is about the "firing angle" or the "delay time" ??

Visualisation parameter r047 will tell you more, I wouldn't try to guess at the problem, although I am moreinclined to think this is an overcurrent fault, if this is the case then r047 will contain a 3.

There is a way to block the drive from detecting a F30 for testing purposes, but I would be loathed to use itas you could end up with either a motor or a drive letting it's smoke out.

Paul


7 06/08/2013 8:33



mhans

PLucas

PLucas

mhans

PLucas

DickDV

May 19th, 2006, 10:01 AM

Well , I don't think so there is a overcurrent fault on this drive. Because during the process , we have neverseen a current value higher than 250 % of the device current. As you say , It's not a good idea simulating aF30 fault with a %250 rated current :) .

Isn't there any possibility about the "firing angle" or "delay time" ?

Murat Han

May 19th, 2006, 12:11 PM

mhans

If you can't wait till the drive faults again you can get the fault history out of the drive.

If you have Drivemonitor software you can connect to the drive with this and read out the fault history inplain English or you can have a look at visualisation parameter U581 (2581), then look at index 65, 66, 67and 68. make a note of what numbers are in each index. These index's contain the number of time F30 hasoccurred for the various reasons, each index corresponds to the number indicated in r047 index 1.

The first 64 indexes of U581 contain the dates that the last 4 communtation failures (F30) occured, so youcan ignore them.Paul

May 19th, 2006, 12:12 PM

mhans

If you can't wait till the drive faults again you can get the fault history out of the drive.

If you have Drivemonitor software you can connect to the drive with this and read out the fault history inplain English or you can have a look at visualisation parameter U581 (2581), then look at index 65, 66, 67and 68. make a note of what numbers are in each index. These index's contain the number of time F30 hasoccurred for the various reasons, each index corresponds to the number indicated in r047 index 1. I wouldexpect index 68 to be zero, unless you are running drives in parallel.

The first 64 indexes of U581 contain the dates that the last 4 communtation failures (F30) occured, so youcan ignore them.

Paul

May 19th, 2006, 01:53 PM

yes, I've read that from the manual too. I have drivemonitor software but in the parameter list, i can't seeU581. The parameter list continues with the parameters "... U552 - U553 - U554" and list jumps to U607 -U608 - U609. Will I see parameter U581 when I get online to the Simoreg ?

This is the screen of the Drivemonitor at my computer.

http://rapidshare.de/files/20871282/screen.JPG.html

May 19th, 2006, 02:03 PMi can't see U581. The parameter list continues with the parameters "... U552 - U553 - U554" and list jumps toU607 - U608 - U609. Will I see parameter U581 when I get online to the Simoreg ?

Good question, I don't know the answer, but I do know that if you connect up drivemonitor and select basicdiagnostics you will see the fault history, not sure if it will show you the index though.

Try it and see.

Paul

May 19th, 2006, 03:52 PM

Just one other additional thought here, guys. If these drives are installed without drive isolation transformers,we may be seeing commutation faults due to an imbalanced or floating power supply.

DC drives are particularly sensitive to power supply anomolies.


7 06/08/2013 8:33



allscott

mhans

May 19th, 2006, 06:46 PM

As this fault is occuring on all of your drives I would attend to agree with Dick DV. I haven't dealt with asimoreg in years but I know that there are both static and rotational tuning procedures for these drives. Doyou know if these procedures were performed when the drives were commissioned?

If you decide to autotune the drives make sure you read all of the warnings etc... in the book and make sureyou have all of the drive paramaters pre recorded so you can see what has changed after the autotune and goback if necessary.

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) these drives along with most digital DC drives haveCT's connected on the armature output of the drive. The current through A1 must equal the current throughA2 or hence a commutation fault, which is why I was suspecting possibly a motor problem

I had a similar situation with a 300HP AB 1395 DC drive. Several months after this machine was installed westarted getting commutation faults. I checked everything I could think of, talked to AB several times andended up auto tuning the drive again and the problem went away.

Hope this helps.

May 22nd, 2006, 08:04 AM

Hello again,

I've just looked at the U581 for 3 drivers. And I noted these values

Top roll DC motor driver

i65 -- 0i66 -- 4i67 -- 0i68 -- 0

Bottom roll DC motor driver

i65 -- 0i66 -- 3i67 -- 0i68 -- 0

Winder DC motor driver

i65 -- 0i66 -- 1i67 -- 0i68 -- 0

i66 is : Total number of commutation failures detected by current waveform monitoring (criterion 2)

In this condition , this failure occurs because of the waveform of the current.

The amazing thing is , " we supply this drivers - also all the electrical panel - via an UPS ! " . It's veryinteresting to get this result.

I looked at the manual and I saw U582 :

-----------------------------------------------------------------

U582 Reaction of commutation

This parameter allows the reaction of the commutataion monitor to be programmed.

1 - Detection of a commutation failure or overcurrent results in immediate pulse blocking and generation of warning A030. The pulses are enables again after approximately 20 ms and warning A030 is reset.

2 - Detection of a commutation failure or overcurrent results in immediate pulse blocking and generation of fault message F030.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

For 3 drivers all the U582 parameters are set to "2". I want to change this parameter to "1".

Siemens engineer said , he's not experienced about this parameter but it can be tried.

I want to try this.


7 06/08/2013 8:33



PLucas

DickDV

mhans

PLucas

What do you say ?

May 22nd, 2006, 09:20 AM

For 3 drivers all the U582 parameters are set to "2". I want to change this parameter to "1".

Siemens engineer said , he's not experienced about this parameter but it can be tried.

I want to try this.

What do you say ?

I say, the choice is yours, I am not going to tell you to do that. Changing this parameter tells the drive todisplay A030 as apposed to F030, you are obviously aware that the drive will keep running in this condition,this might cause you problems, it might not.

You can also turn off criterion 2 monitoring by changing U580 from 7 to 5, but only do this while you find theroot cause of the fault.

The choice is yours.

Remember, these only MASK the fault not CURE it.

Paul

May 22nd, 2006, 04:39 PM

You just might have told us why you are having these problems.

A UPS does not output a sinewave, rather, its output looks more like a PWM pulse train similar to the outputof a VFD.

Since DC drives usually depend on a reasonably clean sinewave to commutate correctly, the errors you seeare to be expected.

If you must operate from a UPS, I don't see any other choice but to alter the parameter to alarm status fromfault status.

I can't guarantee that, over the long term, there might be negative effects but, what other option do youhave other than putting sine filters into the supply leads of the drive? Your boss won't like the cost of doingthat!

May 22nd, 2006, 07:07 PM

Unfortunately , I must operate this electrical cabinet and these DC drives from an UPS.. Because even 100 mselectrical brake is not wanted in the process. My UPS is 400 KVA range and 12 pulse with %5 total harmonicdistortion (current).

http://rapidshare.de/files/21142385/09-04-76A-028_REV1_Model__1_.pdf.html

In this link, there's a pdf file including one of the DC motor's electrical connection scheme. The other drivers'connections are the same way. There are filters in front of the driver's main 3 phase supply. But they're not

sin filters, i think.

I'll get an analysor for monitoring the wave of the current and the voltage at the input of the drive supplies.

Now I'm thinking : This F030 fault occures for an instant. Maybe A030 can tolerate this fault.. But I don'tknow what happens when I set the A030 alarm. I don't know if the motors stop again when the alarmoccurs.. But ı think, until finding the ceratin solution for this fault, it can be masked with A030..

May 23rd, 2006, 01:45 AM

But I don't know what happens when I set the A030 alarm. I don't know if the motors stop again when thealarm occurs..

mhans,

As I said in a previous post.....

you are obviously aware that the drive will keep running in this condition,


7 06/08/2013 8:33



mhans

mhans

PLucas

mhans

mhans

israel cerzar

The drive will keep running in alarm situations, it will not stop.

Paul

May 23rd, 2006, 05:12 AM

oh , that's true PLucas , I've not been noticed that. Now O.K. it's clear in my mind.

May 24th, 2006, 03:26 AM

You can also turn off criterion 2 monitoring by changing U580 from 7 to 5, but only do this while you find theroot cause of the fault.

Paul

All the U580 parameter at 3 drivers are set to 6.

At the manual , it's said for U580 :

1 Monitoring of the blocking voltage time area (decision criterion 1) is evaluated.

2 Monitoring of the current waveform (decision criterion 2) is evaluated.

4 Monitoring of the current maximum values decision criterion 3) is evaluated.

So, what is 6 mean ? what is 7 mean ?

Murat Han

May 24th, 2006, 07:11 AM

Mhans

You have to think of it as binary....

0001 = 1 or decision criterion 1 is evaluated0010 = 2 or decision criterion 2 is evaluated0100 = 4 or decision criterion 3 is evaluated

You say U580 is set at 6

6 = 0110, so decision criterion 2 and 3 are being evaluated, criterion 1 is ignored

The default for U580 is 7 or 0111, all three are evaluated, if you do as I suggested and set it to 5 (0101) thenit will ignore criterion 2.

Make sense?

Paul

May 24th, 2006, 07:14 AM

yes , i understand it clearly now , thank you :)

May 29th, 2006, 05:47 AM

I have changed the U580 parameter of the 3 DC drivers. Old value was 6 , I set them to 4. Waiting for theresult..

June 18th, 2006, 08:57 PM

hi, only

you already solved your problem, with the answers that have presented/displayed to you, I have drives suchsimoreg and my process is equalyou have software already simovis of siemens, in display in which operating system I remainreggards


7 06/08/2013 8:33



PES

mhans

September 20th, 2007, 05:37 PM

hi, only

you already solved your problem, with the answers that have presented/displayed to you, I have drives suchsimoreg and my process is equalyou have software already simovis of siemens, in display in which operating system I remainreggardsHi, Im facing the same problem,The F30 occur very often also I got fuse blown.The F30 occur often to full speed during fieldweakining.

The motors are very allI have done the tuning.

The Simoreg CPP is optional? How can I know if i have this functionality?Can you help me?

August 19th, 2008, 02:53 AM

hi..

after changing the U580 parameter , no fault occured.. drivers are running healthly over 2 years..

.


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