thomas mccann - change of subject | chicago tribune | blog
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IN THR CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY,
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
ALSTORY SI~ON,
Petitioner,
VS.
PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF ILL.,
PETTTIONER'S SUPPORTING APPEWDIX
CONTAINING:
EXHIBIT ~ 9, Grand Jury Testimony of THOMAS McCANN
EXHIBIT ~ 10, Three letters from Attorney JACK RIMLAND
i'L
1 IN RE: JOHN DOE INVESTIGATION
3 ( GJ# 3~63
S BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF COOK COUNTY
7 FEBRUARY 1999
10 TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY TAKEN IN THE
11 ABOVE ENTITLED MATTER ON THE 22ND DAY OF-
12 FEBRUARY A.D., 1999.
13
14
15 PRESENT: MR. THOMAS GAINER, ASSISTANT STATE'S ATTORNEY
16
17 REPORTED BY ANNETTE E. FAKLIS
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER
18 ILLINOIS LICENSE NO. 084 002318
19
20 LIST OF WITNESSES:
21 THOMAS McCANN
22
23
24
25
L'`
1 THE FOREPERSON: Would you raise your right hand, 2 please.
3 (Witness duly sworn.)
4 MR. GAINER: The Grand Jury does have the
5 right to subpoena and question any person against whom 6 the State's Attorney is seeking a Bill of Indictment, 7 or any other person, and to obtain and examine any 8 documents or transcripts relevant to the matter being 9 prosecuted by the State's Attorney.
10 THOMAS McCANN,
11 having been first duly sworn, was examined and
12 testified as follows:
13 1 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. GAINER:
15 Q. State your name please for the record and the
16 Grand Jury.
17 A. Tom McCann.
18 Q. M-c-C-a-n-n?
19 1 A. Yes.
20 ) Q. It is real important that you talk real loud
21 so everyone here can hear you. And if you can't hear
22 me, just let me know and I will talk louder.
23 You are a student at Northwestern University?
24 A. - Yes.
25 Q. What year?
1 A. Seni·or .
2 Q· And when you live at school,·you live in a 3 dorm on Orrington Street in Evanston; is that correct? 4 A. Yes.
5 Q- And when you live with your parents, y-ou live
6 in Park Ridge, Illinois?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You plan to graduate in the spring? 9 A. Yes.
10 Q· What's your major?
11 A. Journalism.
12 Q· That would be your degree?'.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q· Bach·elor of A.rts or Science?
15 A. Bachelor of Science.
16 Q. Did you enrollin a- class in September of 17 1998, in the first quarter of the 1988/1999 academic 18 year being taught by Professor David Protess?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that class was entitled?
21 A. .Special Topics, Media and the Death
22 Penalty.
23 Q· So the class was called Media and the Death
24 Penalty?
25 A. Yes.
*'
1 Q· And the class met for the first time in late
2 Septemb~r 1998?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Had you ever taken a class from
5 Professor Protess before?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Was it your intention to continue on in the
8 second semester or second quarter class called
9 Investigative Journalism?
10 A. At what point? In September?
11 Q. Yes.
r 12 A. No.
13 Q· You did eventually take that class though?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you volunteer to participate in anyclass
16 assignment in the media and the death\penalty class?
17 1 A. Yes .
18 Q. What case did you volunteer for?
19 A. The case of Anthony Porter.
20 Q What exactly was this curriculum all about,
21 Media and the Death Penalty, what was it all about?
22 A. It is a class on how the media can play a
23 role in death penalty cases to, you know, see if th'ere
24 was wrong committed or if everything is fine.
25 Q· And what exactly was the role the media was
i`· 5
1 to play?
2 A. A watch dog roll. Like watch dog with the
3 government. And we read several books about just how
4 lawyers and journalists, you know, probed into a syste
5 and, you know, done investigative work.
6 And it was a way to teach senior journalism
7 students to do the basics of investigative reporting,
8 some of the things they would be doing in their jobs
9 after graduation.
10 Q· So with all of that in mind, that is what you
11 undertook to do in connection with the August 151 1982
t. 12 shooting deaths of Jerry Hillard and'Marilyn Green?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The crimes for which Anthony Porter stood
15 convicted and sentenced to death?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q· Did you review any documents in connection
18 with that assignment?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q· What documents did you review?
21 A. .I reviewed the coroner's reports, the police
22 reports, the original testimony, opening statements,
23 cross-examination of two main witnesses, Henry Williams
24 and William Taylor, and read copies of old
25 investigative reports taken back in the late 80's.
·~ 1 6
1 Q· Who prepared those investigative reports?
2 A. It was an old defense investigator, one man's
3 name was John Heath and another man's name was
4 William Ridley. Apparently, they did some
5 investigations on this case earlier.
6 Q. For whom?
7 A. Porter's defense attorney, I think his name
8 was Kenneth Flaxman.
9 Q. At the time in the late 80's?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Aside from the transcript of the two
12 witnesses that you mentioned, ·didyon read any other
13 transcripts, anyother testimony?
14 A. I think I read part -- I think his name was
15 Kenneth Doyle. I think I read parts of his testimony;
16 but since it was so long, I read the gpening and
17 closing arguments and the testimony of Henry Williams
18 and William Taylor.
19 Q· Doyle was the fingerprint guy or the guythat
20 found the fingerprints at the scene?
21 A. .I believe Ken Doyle was - - I don't re me mbe r
·22 what he was. I just remember his name.
23 Q. He was a policeman, is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you readany of the other police
1 testimony?
2 A. I read part of the police testimony where the
3 officer was talking about the scene of the crime and
4 laying out the dimensions of the pool and the types of
5 lighting. And so with that, I did a diagram of the
6 park before we went to re-enact the crime so we knew
7 what we were talking about.
8 Q. You are the guy that did the re-enactment,
9 that ran the whole part of the i nve s t i g a t i -o n ?
10 A. I gave them the diagram from which they
11 looked at everything.
r 12 Q. You read the testimony of 'William Taylor, is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you read the testimony of Henry Williams?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q· Did you read any of the alibi witness
18 testimony offered by Anthony Porter's lawyers?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q· And you read a full set of police reports?
21 A. . Yes.
22 1 · Q. Because as you said earlier you were involve
23 in trying to be a watch dog and look at all of the
24 things that led to this conviction, right?
25 A. Yes. And then they found out a conclusion
1 ) based on the evidence.
2 Q· So with all that in mind, then you started
3 working on a conclusion?
4 1 ' A. Yes.
5 Q. And the conclusion you reached then was?
6 A. It wasn't a "not guilty" yet. It was just
7 details that seemed not right. But I wasn't convince
8 of guilt or innocence until after William Taylor
9 recanted his testimony.
10 Q. And that occurred when?
11 A. I believe it was December 11, on Friday.
12 Q. of 1998?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who was the first person of this team to make
15 contact with William Taylor?
16 A. Me, I.
17 Q. When I talk about the team, I want to be
18 clear so we are talking about the same thing. Okay?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Professor Protess is always part of the team?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Paul Ciolino is always part of the team,
23 right?
24 A. - He wasn't part of the team until we had to
25 talk to William Taylor.
1 Q. Was he doing other things prior to talking to
2 Taylor?
3 A. No, he was just -- actually, he went to one
4 law school meeting and he didn't really say anything.
5 Q. Okay. In the third quarter, it was
6 Lori D'Angelo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Cara Rubinsky?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Shawn Armbrust?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And yourself, is that cbrrect?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And in the second quarter, Lori dropped out?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And was replaced by Erica LaBorgne?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Syandene Rhodes-Pitts?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So that the team then for our purposes will
21 be LaBorgne, D'Angelo, Armbrust, Rubinsky, McCann,
22 Rhodes-Pitts, and the professor?
23 1 A. Yes.
24 Q· And sometimes Ciolino?
25 A. Yes, he was part of the team at the start of
10
1 William Taylor.
2 Q. Who is the first member of the team to talk
3 to Taylor?
4 A. Me.
5 Q. How did you do that?
6 A. I received his phone number from the
7 Capital Litigation Division investigator and he gave me 8 his phone number and address, and I gave him a call on
9 Sunday night.
io Q- Let me make sure I understand this: So the
11 office of the State Appellate Defender,
12 Capital Litigation Division, was als.o giving
13 Northwestern University students and a professor
14 information about this Case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q· Okay. And that would have,been
17 Appolon Beaudoin?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you got information from him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. .Did you get any information from
22 Terry Marroquin, M-a-r-r-o-q-u-i-n?
23 A. No.
24 Q. ·Do you know who she is?
25 A. Yes.
11
1 Q· How about Mr. Sanders, did he give you
2 information?
3 A. He gave me access to his files, the police
4 reports and the testimony. He didn't giv·e me any --
5 basically we went out on our own and we just went to
6 Dan Sanders' office for documents.
7 Q. Okay. When you got the phone number from
8 the Capital Litigation Division, then you contacted
9 Taylor?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On the telephone?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did you say to him?
14 A. I said hello,is this William Taylor?
15 My name is Tom McCann. I am a student just doing-a
16 project on the case of Anthony Porter,and I found your
17 name and I wanted to ask you a few questions. And he
18 was taken aback. He didn't sound like he wanted to
19 talk about it, he just wanted people to leave him
20 alone.
21 Q· -What did he say to you that made you think· he
22 just wanted to be left alone?
23 A. He told me he said all that he wanted to say,
24 that some·people came by his place not too long ago.
25 He talked to them, why does he have to talk anymore.
12
1 His mother I believe or his -- I think his
2 mother was sick at the time and she just died. And he
3 felt very full of stress and he made mention of saying,
4 you know, I know beyond a doubt Anthony Porter is
5 guilty, I just wish he were executed and I can get on
6 with my life.
7 Q. You were aware at the point you were calling
8 him on the telephone that he had already been visited
9 by Appolon Beaudoin?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q· And were you aware that he had already told
12 Appolon that he didn't want to talk to him about this,
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q· And how many visits did Appolon make to
16 Taylor?
17 A. One.
18 Q· How many phone calls did Appolon have with
19 Taylor?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. And this was prior to November of 1998?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So Appolon had talked to him at least once
24 and now you were contacting him on the phone, right?
25 A. Appolon had contacted him in August.
13
1 Q. And that's when he told Appolon I don't want
2 to talk to you about this?
3 A. I believe he made an affidavit regarding 4 police coercion -- not coercion, but his dealings with
5 police the night he was taken in so they got an
6 affidavit from him regarding that.
7 Q· Appolon Beaudoin got an affidavit from --
8 A. It was an affidavit saying what happened to 9 him when he got taken into the police headquarters the
10 night of the murder.
11 Q· Have you seen that affidavit?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q· Do you have a c·opy of it?
14 A. I have a copy of it at home.
15 Q· Okay. You were asked to bring all the notes
16 that you had.
17 A. I am sorry. I thought that was something
18 that you received long ago.
19 Q. No, I have never seen it. This is another
20 affidavit taken by Appolon Beaudoin?
21 A. ·We didn' t have anything to do with it.
22 Q. I understand. I am not trying to be
23 accusatory. But you know why we are here, don't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We are here get to the bottom of this.
14
1 A. Right.
2 Q. What is this affidavit about?
3 A. The affidavit said that they took him in that
4 ( night and left him in overnight. He said they left hi
5 in overnight at police headquarters, at 51st and
6 Wentworth, didn't say that he was arrested or charged
7 with anything but kept him locked up in there until
8 5:00 o'clock the next afternoon.
9 And they -- a police officer shook a large
10 flashlight in front of him banging it on the police
11 officer's own hand in an intimidating manner, said who
12 are you more afraid of Porter·or us.
13 And basically detailing the fact that he was,
14 you know, mentally intimidated by what the police
15 officers did.
16 Q. Did the affidavit say whether or not what he
17 told the police was the truth?
18 A. No, he didn't mention anything like that.
19 Q. So the affidavit doesn't talk about what -he
20 told the police, it only talks about what he said the
21 police did to him?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. The affidavit didn't say I saw Anthony Porter
24 shoot and-kill Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green?
25 A. No.
15
1 Q· Did you have any conversation with Appolon
2 about his conversation with Taylor?
3 A. Just Dan Sanders saying that when they
4 knocked on the door he was pacing back and forth.
5 Q. Okay. Did Sanders or Appolon tell you that
6 at that time in August Taylor still maintained that
7 Anthony Porter was the shooter?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That's what they told you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That in August of 1998 William Taylor still
12 maintained that Anthony Porter was t.jie shooter?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q· Although there was nothing about it in the
15 affidavit?
16 A. Right. And he maintained it when I called
17 him.
18 Q· The first time you spoke to him he continued
19 1 to maintain that Anthony Porter was the shooter?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q· And of course he told you how he knew
22 Anthony Porter; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. - What did he say?
25 A. I don't know if he~ told me the day I called
1·6
1 him, the night I called him, but I found out that he
2 knew him on the streets, he didn't know him personally, 3 he saw him mug someone I believe.
4 Q. Did he say something about actually mugging
5 two old men in front of his grandmother's apartment?
6 A. I thought it was two old women, but I am not
7 sure.
8 Q. It was two old people?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall the incident I am referring to? 11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell the Ladies and.·Gentlemen of the Grand
13 Jury how it is that William Taylor knew Anthony Porter?
14 A. William Taylor knew Anthony Porter in the
15 neighborhood before 1982 because he knew him as a bad
16 person, and he saw him mug two old people in front --
17 I don't know if it is in front of his mother's house,
18 but he saw Anthony Porter mug two old people on the
19 1 street.
20 Q· And this is what he told you?
21 A. Yes .
22 Q. And you already heard about this from Appolo
23 Beaudoin and Dan Sanders?
24 A. - I don' t think so. I think that's the first
25 time I heard it.
17
1 Q. Do you remember when you first talked to
2 Taylor on the phone?
3 A. That would be probably the Sunday before
4 December 11. And December 11 was a Friday.
5 Q· Okay. So in December?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you prepare a memorandum about that
8 conversation on the phone?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q· And in the memorandum, did you say on
11 Saturday, November 14, "I talked over the phone to
12 William Taylor, the eyewitness on the Anthony Porter 13 case"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q· So it is not December, it is November?
16 A. I am sorry, yes.
17 Q. Did you then write in your memorandum
18 "he sounded bothered and not happy to talk about the
19 Porter case"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you also write "but I agree with App~olon
22 that he will talk if you keep pushing him"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you write that?
25 A. Yes.
18
1 Q· Did you continue on "our talk was friendly
2 though he sounded on guard throughout the call"
3 Is that what you wrote?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He said "there is no doubt in my mind that
6 this man is guilty"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q· Is that what he said to you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You put that in quotes, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q· "He's had to live with thi.s for 18 years and
13 he-wants to put it behind him"?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q· He said "he will not be happy until Porter is
16 finally executed"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is that what the man told you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q· "And this is a very bad time for him because
21 his mother just passed away and he wants to piece
22 things back together". Is that what you wrote?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. · And this is a summary of your conversation
25 with this man on the telephone, is that correct?
19
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After he had once been visited by an
3 investigator for the State Appellate Defenderin August
4 1 and told them already that it was Anthony Porter who
S was the shooter; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q· You continued on in your memo "before hanging
8 up, he told me he didn't want to talk about this case
9 anymore"?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "But I never told him I had already gone to
12 see the park"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. "That will be my ticket when I meet him
15 again"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you write that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "On Tuesday or Wednesday, December 8 or
20 December 9, I will attempt to interview William Taylor
21 at his apartment with Paul Ciolino and try to get him
22 to accompany us to the park". Did you write that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Was that your plan?
25 A. I wanted him to come with us to the park so
20
1 he could show us what he saw.
2 Q. Was it your plan?
3 A. Yes.
4 1 Q. You continued to make the plan after the man
5 told you he didn't want to talk to you anymore about
6 the case, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. "I will try to cast most of the suspicion on
9 Henry Williams and find out if Taylor knows where
10 Williams is". Did you write that?
11 A. Yes.
t 12 Q. Those are your words?-
13 1 A. Yes .
14 Q. That was your plan?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q· What did you mean by "cast n?ost of the
17 suspicion on Henry Williams"?
18 A. Well, in an interview, I thought that you
19 don't get anywhere if you talk to a person and try:to
20 pin all the blame on him because he is automatically o
21 guard. What I wanted to do is make him feel friendly
22 and open up to me.
23 Q. The blame for what?
24 A. The blame if indeed he wasn't saying the
25 truth, I didn't want him to think that, you know, he
21
1 was going to get in trouble or he had something to lose 2 if he actually did not say the truth. 3
Q. But at the point you were talking to him and 4 the point you were concocting this plan, this man had
5 twice before told you and another investigator that he 6 did speak the truth; right?
7
A. But he never said anything beyond just 8 stating that: oCould I talk to you about the case, 9 no"?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you read the transcript? 12 A. Yes.
13 Q· Did you see his sworn testimony? 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You read his sworn testimony? 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you knew that at least on three 18 occasions: once in 1982, once in August of 1998, ~nd 19 again with you in November of 1998, William Taylor was 20 saying I saw Anthony Porter do the shooting? 21 A. Yes. I wanted to get him to come with me to
22 Washington Park so I could figure out why his testimon 23 made no sense to me. Because he said to me that 24 Anthony Porter -- he saw Anthony Porter do this, to
25 leave him alone but he never answered any questions
22
1 about why his testimony made -- it didn't make any
2 sense. You know, to explain, you know, what he saw.
3 Q· So it was your plan to go with Ciolino to his
4 home?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And try and corlvince him to go to the park
7 with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q· And you and Ciolino indeed went to his home?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did you do when you got to his home?
12 A. We went in the doorand' it'~·'is an apartment
13 building on th·e north side. And there is a man
14 standing in front of the cage on the first floor of the
15 building and Paul said hello, are you William Taylor b
16 any chance, and he said I am. And we started tal~ing
17 to him.
18 Q. Cage, by the way, is the little desk area
19 1 where this single room occupancy hotel has its counter
20 and such?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And he identified himself as Taylor?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. · And then you and Ciolino went somewhere with
25 him?
23
1 A. No, we didn't go anywhere with him.
2 Q· You stayed down in the area of the vestibule
3 area of the apartment building?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q· In the course of your class work with
6 Professor Protess, he instructed you on an
7 investigative technique known as good cop bad cop? 8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What does that mean exactly to you?
io A. It means that two people go on an interview,
11 one person plays the role of some~one who is big and
12 intimidating, kind of, and applies pressure I guess,
13 and another person who is just laid back and just a
14 nice guy, sympathizer. · And usually the person doesn't
15 like the intimidating fellow and opens up to the nice
16 guy.
17 Q· And that indeed is the technique that you and
18 Ciolino employed when you talked to Taylor that night,
19 is that correct?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. What did Ciolino say to Taylor when you saw
22 him play the bad cop?
23 A. Well, he said basically could you please.talk
24 to us about the Porter case. And William said the:same
25 thing as he said before, I don't want to talk about' it,
24
1 I I just want it to go away.
2 And he said well, I have something to tell
3 you, William, it is not going to go away, we have to
4 ( talk about this soon or later. There is a competency
5 hearing coming up and there are issues about his
6 innocence, and he is going to be put to death pretty
7 soon so whether you cooperate or not you are going to
8 have to deal with this sometime.
9 And then he introduced me, we shook hands, he
10 already knew me. And I think for the first time I
11 started asking him why your testimony says you saw
12 this, but really there is this.· - You know, your
13 testimony said that you saw Anthony Porter shoot with
14 his left hand, even though he was right-handed.
15 Your testimony said that you stood on the
16 south end of the pool a·long, long way away from the
17 north end of the bleachers at 1:00 in the morning, how
18 could you see a face from that far away. And from
19 ·1 where you stood putting on your clothes from the
20 testimony right next to the fence, how could you s~e
21 anything through a rod-iron fence that's an obstructed
22 view completely.
23 And he kind of went silent and, you know, it
24 looked like he was thinking in his head. And then
25 Paul, you know, started saying, you know, we read your
25
1 affidavit about how the police treated you that
2 night. And, you know, I have been doing this for
3 thirty years, I know exactly what's going on, you know,
4 how these police officers do these things to people.
5 And he is really a victim here; if they did anything to
6 him, please speak up. And you have a man's life who
7 is about to die; if you have anything to say about what
8 really happened that night or if you are not saying
9 anything you should be saying, you know, please talk
10 up.
11 Q. Did Ciolino say the first part of what you
12 just attributed to him in a loud and'~ intimidating
13 manner?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you ever complain to Professor Protess
16 about Ciolino's investigative techniq~es?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever complain to anyone about
19 Ciolino's investigative techniques?
20 A. One thing.
21 Q. .What is it you complained a-bout?
22 A. Well, it is later on in that meeting when
23 William Taylor, he was looking down on the ground being
24 silent; and all of a sudden he looks up and says I am
25 not saying a single word until I know those two pol~ce
26
1 officers that were, you know, that brutalized me back
2 in 1982 are off the force because I am afraid they are
3 going to come after me.
4 Q· By the way, his word was brutalized?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q· That was his word?
7 A. Yes. And he said I am afraid they are going
8 to come after me. How do I know that they are not
9 going to come after me for this. And so I went into
10 the carand found the testimony and names of the two
11 detectives that interrogated him on the testimony.
12 And I came back, and he` said I will just
13 call on the phone. And called and said is
14 Sergeant Salatorie or P~rry -- I don'tremember the
15 other investigator -- are they there, and she said hol
16 on. And he just hung up and said they are not there
17 anymore.
18 Q· You did that or Ciolino did that?
19 A. Ciolino did.
20 Q· So what you are saying is Ciolino basically
21 lied to this guy about whether or not the police were
22 still on the job?
23 A. Yes. And in addition he said if anyone so
24 close as threatens you or gives you a call, just call
25 me and we will be down there right away. And kind of
27
1 eased him, and then he signed an affidavit, and then he
2 said -- first of all he said that he didn't know the
3 two people were shot, he only thought that Jerry was
4 shot because he was the only person he saw up there
5 when he went up there.
6 And he said he thought he saw Anthony Porter
7 that night, he was putting on his clothes, there was a
8 shot and he looked up, and there was just a blur.
9 And, you know, he said if he knew this, that there was
10 another suspect or he knew that Anthony Porter probabl
11 didn't do it, he would have spoken up long ago. And he
12 said something about how I think 'I am going to go to
13 hell for this.
14 Q. Let's go thro~gh that bit by bit.
15 Ciolino got him to sign an affidavit that night?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in the affidavit it had really four big
18 parts concerning Anthony Porter?
19 1 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will read them to you: "I was present'in
21 the park when the shooting occurred"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That is what he said?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. "I did not see Anthony Porter shoot anybody"?
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. "I never seen Anthony Porter with a gun"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. "I did not see who shot the victims that
5 day"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q· That's what he said to you guys?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That's what Ciolino wrote out?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q· And eventually Taylor signed off on it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But he also told you that he did see
14 Anthony Porter in the pool that night, is that correct?
15 A. He said "I thought I saw Anthony Porter in
16 the park somewhere"
17 Q. In the park or pool?
18 A. Park.
19 1 'Q · Didn't he tell you ~that he thought he saw
20 Anthony Porter run by him on those bleachers?
21 A. He said he thought he saw Anthony in the
22 park, he saw someone run past him. I don't think he
23 said that he saw Anthony.
24 Q. Did he say that the person who ran past him
25 he thought was Anthony Porter?
29
1 A. He might have. I don't think so, though.
2 Q- Did you make any notes of what he said about
3 that?
4 1 A. No .
5 Q· Because you certainly didn't put that in the
6 affidavit, did you?
7 A. I didn't have any notes.
8 Q. But that was not included in the affidavit, 9 that he saw Anthony Porter in the park that night;
10 right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. What else did he tell· you .that was not
13 included in th·e affidavit?
14 A. I can't think of anything else besides what I 15 just said. He didn't know that Marilyn, that there 16 was a woman involved. He just saw or?e body. He did 17 not see who shot anyone. He saw someone run past him,
18 he ran too fast to get a good look at him.
19 Q. Did he tell you where his friend William was
20 after the shooting?
21 A. He said that -- I don't know if he said this
22 to me that night but I know that he met up with
23 Henry Williams at the murder site and was talking with
24 him and the police came up to them.
25 Q· And did he tell you what Williams told him?
30
1 A. No.
2 Q· He didn't say anything about what Williams
3 told him when the police came up to them?
4 A. No.
5 Q. He didn't say anything about the armed
6 robbery of Henry Williams?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did he tell you that Williams told him that
9 Anthony Porter went through his pants pockets?
10 A. No.
11 Q· When Williams got stuck~ up?
12 A. The only thing he told me .8bout Williams.is
13 he doesn't know where he is and he hasn't seen him in a
14 long time.
15 Q· And he never told you anything about the
16 armed robbery of Henry Williams that pight?
17 A. Never.
18 Q· Did you ask him any questions about the ~rme
19 robbery of Henry Williams?
20 A. No.
21 Q. .Did you ask him whether or not what Williams
22 saw was true?
23 A. No.
24 Q. · Did you go and discuss the armed robbery of
25 Henry Williams with him?
31
1 A. No.
2 Q· So there were some things that were said by
3 William Taylor that Ciolino did not include in this
4 1 affidavit, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q- You said you read the police repprts, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And you noticed in the police reports that
9 there were four witnesses who were on the scene that
10 night and talked to by the police at the police
11 station; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That~ would be Woodfork?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Edwards, correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Senior, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Eugene Beckwith, is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -Do you remember what Kenneth Edwards told th·e
22 police that night?
23 A. No.
24 Q. ' Are you aware that Kenneth Edwards told the
25 police that night that Anthony Porter was the person
32
1 who shot and killed Jerry Hillard and Marilyn Green?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you read that in the police reports?
4 A. I believe I did.
5 Q· You believe you read that in the police
6 reports
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. You don't remember?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Well you remember Salvatore and Gray, don't
11 you?
12 A. That was in the court· test'imony.
13 Q. Who?
14 A. Salvatore and Gray and Henry Williams and
15 William Taylor.
16 Q. Did you look at the police reports?
17 A. I did.
18 Q· Do you remember a police report that
19 summarizes the testimony of William Taylor and
20 Henry Williams?
21 A. I think I read that.
22 Q. Let me show it to you.
23 (Witness being shown document.)
24 A. . Okay.
25 Q· 78ecause I do not want to mislead you.
33
1 A. I remember the names of Beckwith and
2 Woodfork, but I don't remember what they said. 3 Q· YOU certainly never had any conversation with
4 anyone about those folks, did you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So if you got those names, you are getting 7 them from somewhere; aren't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Nobody told you about those people? 10 A. No, just what I read in the police report. 11 Q· Take a look at this report. To cut to the 12 chase, I could direct your attent.ion·to Page 4.
13 (Wit-ness reviewing document.)
14 A. Do you want me to read Kenneth Edwards?
15 Q. I want you to look at it.
16 ) (Witness reviewing document,
17 Have you had a chance to look at it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q· Do you remember reading it now when you were
20 doing your investigation?
21 A. ~I don't remember reading this.
22 Q. But you remember the names Edwards, Woodfork,
23 Beckwith, and Senior?
24 A. . Right .
25 1 . Q. So now you see that in addition to Williams
34
1 and Taylor there was another person who told the police 2 that Anthony Porter was the shooter that night? 3 A. Yes.
4 Q. As well as three other people who witnessed
5 the incident?
6 A. Right.
7 Q- And I know you are a bright young man, you
8 can see that those three other witnesses more or less 9 confirmed the Alstory Simon version of events, don't
10 they?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q· Did you do anything·to inv'estigate them?
13 A. No.
14 Q· Did you go out and talk to them?
15 A. When I was doing this, it was only
16 Anthony Porter. And we went with the two witnesses
17 that appeared in Court. And when wegot 18 William Taylor's affidavit, we didn't look back at .the
19 other ones.
20 Q. But, Tom, what did you tell us your purpose
21 was, what were you doing this for?
22 A. To find the truth. But I am a college
23 student. I mean this took a long time.
24 Q. Let's go with that. You are a college 25 student, I understand that. Who told you to quit when
35
1 you got to the Taylor affidavit?
2 A· No one. We only had a very short time so we 3 decided to look at the alternate suspect.
4 Q. Did anyone tell you not to interview those
5 four guys?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did anyone tell you to go back and see
8 whether or not they saw Porter in the stands that
9 night?
10 A. No.
11 Q· Did you think for a minute that that might be 12 important?
13 A. I did not.
14 1 S~. You didn't go.with Ciolino and the professor 15 when they got Taylor to sign this affidavit, did you? 16 A. No.
17 Q. So you don't know what went on that day? 18 A. No.
19 Q· But the affidavit that he signed that day was
20 almost a mirror image, with the exception of one
21 change, of the affidavit that Ciolino got him to sign
22 when you were there; right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Did you ever meet with Anthony Porter?
25 A. Yes.
36
1 Q· When was the first time you met him?
2 A. I believe it was December 16, on a
3 Wednesday.
4 Q· And where did you see him?
5 A. Saw him at Cook County Jail.
6 Q· And who did you go to the Cook County Jail
7 with?
8 A. David Protess, Dan Sanders, and
9 Shawn Armbrust.
10 Q. .And where at the jail?
11 A. It is the southernmost one. I think it is
12 Division 9.
13 Q· And when you saw him, what kind of room was
14 he in?
15 A. Small cubicle with a table and chairs and a
16 guard looking in through the windows.,
17 Q· How many tables and chairs?
18 A. One table, four chairs.
19 Q· BY the way, Kenneth Doyle was an alibi
20 witness, wasn't he?
21 A. .I guess so.
22 Q. Fat Luke? We will talk more about it.
23 You saw him there, and how was he dressed?
24 A. · He was dressed in, I believe, a beige pants
25 and a white top like a Long John top.
37
1 Q. Was he shackled?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How was he shackled?
4 A. I believe he had leg and arm braces, cuffs.
5 Q. And did you personally speak to him?
6 A. I think I exchanged a few words with him whe
7 ( everyone else was talking.
8 Q· Was this the first time you had ever seen hi
9 in person?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And when you personally spoke to him, what's
12 the first thing you said to him·?
13 A. "Hello, Anthony, I am Tom McCann"
14 Q. Did he respond to that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did he say?
17 A. Hello.
18 Q· And did you say anything else after you
19 introduced yourself?
20 A. I really can't remember. I know I said
21 something. Maybe something about, you know, how are
22 they treating you in here, how is the food. And I
23 think I asked him -- I don't remember what else.
24 Q. · When you spoke to him and when you said these
25 things to him, were you speaking the English language?
38
1 A. Yes.
2 Q· And did he respond to you?
3 A. In English, yes.
4 ) Q. And did what he said to you appear responsive 5 to what you were saying to him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q· When he engaged in conversation with
8 everybody in that room that night, did they all speak 9 in the English language?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what they said, was~ it understandable to
12 you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q· And when he responded to them, did what he
15 say sound responsive to what was being said to him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And did he tell you that night that he knew
18 Jerry Hillard~?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did he tell you he knew Hillard?
21 A. .Actually, I don't think -- I think he told
22 someone that the second time we met him.
23 Q. So you are not sure if you had that
24 conversation the first night?
25 A. I don't think so. I think he said somet~ing
39
1 I about not knowing Marilyn.
2 Q· The first time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q· But he didn't talk about Hillard the first S time?
6 A. I don't know. I just know he said what you
7 are talking about in January.
8 Q· Did he, that first night, talk about his 9 alibi with you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q· What did he say about it? 12 A. He said I wasn't in.the.pafk at all.
13 He said he was· at home.
14
Q· How is it the.subject of his alibi came up? 15 A. I think someone asked him were you in the 16 park that night. And he emphatically denied it.
17 Q· And who asked him that?
18 A. I believe it was David.
19 Q· Professor Protess?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. .And did anyone else follow-up and ask him 22 questions about his alibi, about what he had been doing 23 that night?
24 A. · Yes, I think I asked him something about 'it. 25 Q. What did you ask him?
40
1 A. You know, said there is someone -- in the
2 testimony there is a police officer that said he
3 stopped you and frisked you in the park. You know, 4 just come clean, you know, if they did see you there 5 and you didn't have a gun, that's good~for you. 6 You know, so if you really were that person, tell us
7 and it might help you out. But he still said he was
8 never in the park.
9 Q- Did you make any notes of that conversation?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was anybody taking notes of that
12 conversation?
13 A. I think Dan Sanders was talking ndtes.
14 We were just there to say hello.
15 Q· How long did you just say hello?
16 A. Maybe 45 minutes.
17 Q. What else was said during that 45 minute
18 period of time?
19 A. It was talking about, you know, the upco~ihg 20 trial. You know, some psychologist is going to come
21 and see you, just routine things about the case.
22 Q- Did he give you the names of any other
23 witnesses he wanted you to investigate?
24 A. -I believe he mentioned the name
25 Waiter Jackson. He said his name and he kept
:·:1~
41
1 repeating it over and over again.
2 Q· You knew how Waiter fit into the whole thing 3 when you went to see him that night?
4 A. I did not.
S Q. You didn't know that some of the early 6 affidavits contained information about Waiter Jackson?
7 A. I didn't know that he approached him in
8 prison or anything.
9 Q· But you knew that Waiter Jackson figured int
10 the investigation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You knew some of your classmates were
13 planning on visiting Waiter Jackson?
14 A. This was a month before we had any plan to do
15 this. This is the first time that we got the name and
16 Jwe thought that it wouldbe a good lead. 17 Q. But you had the affidavit of Joyce Heywood,
18 didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q- And you had the affidavit of Ricky Young;
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did those affidavits mention the name
24 Waiter Jackson?
25 A. I don't remember.
42
1 Q. Anything else that you can remember about
2 that first conversation?
3 A. No, just um -- no.
4 1 Q. Did you or Ciolino ever say anything to
5 William Taylor about movie deals and book rights?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you hear Ciolino talk to Taylor about
8 movie deals and book rights?
9 A. No.
10 Q· Had you discussed with your classmates the
11 notion of a movie deal or book rights during your
12 investigation?
13 A. During the investigation, only jokingly. 14 Q. In what manner, in what context? Tell me ho
15 you did this.
16 A. Just saying this is incredi~ly interesting.
17 You know, as events played out, it was kind of
18 overwhelming. Saying, God, if a movie went out of
19 this, who would play who, just joking.
20 Q· You didn't hear Ciolino say anything lik~
21 that?
22 A. Like people said Tom Cruz should play me and
23 Nicole Kidman, and just jokes like that.
24 Q. When was the next time you met Porter?
25 A. I believe it was in early week in January.
43
1 Probably the first or second week.
2 Q. Who were you with on that occasion?
3 A. Dan Sanders, David Protess, Syandene
4 Rhodes-Pitts and Erica LaBorgne.
5 Q. Protess was there on that occasion?
6 A. Oh, wait a minute. No, he was not.
7 Q. It was the students and Dan Sanders?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. And did you discuss Porter's alibi during
10 that visit?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you persona·ll_y `diS'cuss it with him?
13 A. I don't think I said anything there. 14 Q. Who did?
15 A. I don't remember. I justknow he said the
16 same thing as he said last time.
17 Q. Which was?
18 A. He emphatically denied he was in ~he park.
19 And Erica said something about a gun, like did you'have
20 a gun or something. And, you know, he was, he went
21 like up in the air and didn't have any gun. ~ut I
22 don't remember.
23 Q· That was the part in the big article~ in
24 yesterday's Sun Times, right.
25 A. I don't think it mentioned a gun.
44
1 Q· " Erica blurted out, Anthony, were you in the
2 park that night. No, she recalls him exploding, I
3 don't have no gun. I wasn't around. That woman,you
4 have to find that woman, Inez Jackson, Alstory Simon's
5 wife. She will tell you, she knows what happened.
6 It was him, not me."
7 A. I don't know if that's word for word.
8 I think the reporter did some doctoring.
9 Q. Well, there are quotes around it.
10 A. Yeah, well.
11 Q. A reporter wouldn't put~ quotes around it if
12 it weren't a quote, would he.
13 A. He quoted me as saying that I never told him.
14 Q· So there are 'some things in this
15 A. That was a long time ago.
16 Q. -- report by Brian Smith that are not tr'ue?
17 A. I don't know if it is not true, but it .is not
18 word for word.
19 Q· What did he attribute to you that's not
20 accurate?
21 A. .Just stuff at the beginning of class saying
22 "if you don't mind, I would like to take the case", or
23 something like that, you know.
24 Q. "If it is still opened said Tom McCann, I
25 would like to do Porter"?
45
1 A. I probably said something like that.
2 Q. He put quotes around it.
3 A. Yes.
4 )' Q· So either you are mistaken or.he is mistaken;
5 right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q· So once again on the second meeting you all
8 discussed Porter's alibi and once again he told you he
9 wasn't present in the park; right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q· Did you meet him a third time?
12 A. Just the day he got' out' of'prison.
13 Q· Did you discuss his alibi on that day?
14 A. Don't think s'o.
15 Q. Is that the last time you talked to him, the
16 day you saw him out here and the day you went to his
17 house?
18 A. He came to Northwestern last week.
19 Q· Did you discuss his alibi on that occasion?
20 A. After he was released from prison, all he
21 wanted to·talk about was food, just mundane things.
22 Q. Book deals, did he want to talk about book
23 deals?
24 A. - No.
25 Q· Movie rights?
46
1 A. No.
2 Q· So it is your testimony that you have never
3 discussed anything with Anthony Porter about book deals
4 or movie rights?
5 A. No.
6 Q· What other witnesses did you interview?
7 A. Other witnesses? That was it.
8 Q. You weren't present when Inez Jackson was
9 interviewed?
10 A. No.
11 ( 'Q. You weren't present when Waiter Jackson was
12 interviewed?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You didn't speak with Offie Lee Green?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you spoke to Taylor and ~nthony Porter?
17 A. Right.
18 Q· And again you never spoke with or made any
19 attempt to speak with Beckwith, Woodfork, Senior or
20 Edwards; right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q· How did you ascertain that Williams was dead?
23 A. I think Appolon told us. We were, you know,
24 1 following various leads, telephone numbers, and things
25 about where we could find him and he eventually just
47
1 told us that he found out he was dead. And we didn't
2 believe him. And then he showed us a death report or
3 certificate that showed who he was and we finally
4 believed it.
5 Q· I asked you or you were issued a subpoena by
6 the Grand Jury that required your coming to this Grand
7 Jury today and bringing with you certain records that
8 you had in your possession about this case; right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And today you gave me two pages of records
11 which I am going to mark as Grand Jury Exhibit F, 1 and
12 2. Take a look at these two· Pages.' Are those the
13 two exhibits or the two pages you brought to me?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q· And one of them recounts your interview with
16 Taylor on November 14 and your plan t~ereafter; right?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And the other recounts a phone call
19 actually maybe two phone calls that you had with people
20 from the Chicago Park District after the re-enactment
21 of the crime scene at Washington Park; right?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. When was that re-enactment again?
24 1 A. I believe it was in November, close to the
25 date of calling William Taylor. I believe earliel in
48
1 the week sometime. I don't remember a date.
2 Q. And again the week -- I am sorry.
3 A. The week of calling William Taylor.
4 That was a Sunday. So it might have been a Monday.
5 Q· So right around the 14th of November?
6 A. A we·ek before then, I think.
7 Q. I noticed that Jack Regan, the man you met
8 with me when we all visited at your school.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He was out looking for you on Friday?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On the 19th?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You two kind ·of moved past each other, and
15 you were going to a class or something and he went to
16 another direction and you missed each~ other?
17 A. I had to go to that Sun Times guy, he wanted
18 to take a picture so I had to go with him. And I
19 waited for an hour or so and I thought that he forgot
20 about me or something but I had to go to that.
21 Q. The Sun Times or Jack Regan?
22 A. We had to go and take a picture.
23 Q· In any event, you never hooked up with
24 Jack Regan on Friday?
25 A. Yes.
49
1 Q. And you knew he was looking at you?
2 A. And when I got home, I called his office and
3 he said call him on Monday.
4 1 Q. And you spoke to Professor Protess and he
5 said he already volunteered you to come any way; right?
6 A. I called your office and someone answered the
7 phone and I told him I wasn't there. And he told me
8 that your professor has the subpoena or something like
9 that or your professor -- or just come on Monday with
10 the rest of them.
11 Q. I noticed that the two memoranda that you
12 handed me today are dated February 2'1, 1999?
13 A. I think that's something with my computer.
14 When I print something out, it has the date of thetime
15 I print it.
16 Q. Explain that again.
17 A. For some reason with the memo system on
18 Microsoft word, that when you open up the file, it
19 erases the date that you put down originally and puts
20 the date that you have when you open the file and print
21 it out. .So I wanted to make a copy for you yesterday,
22 I think. And I printed it out and it put the date of
23 1 yesterday.
24 Q. - When did you prepare -these two memoranda?
25 A. I prepared it when I did it.
50
1 Q. Which is when?
2 A. November for the Washington Park one and
3 November for the William Taylor one.
4 Q. And these two memoranda, are these memoranda
5 that you gave to Professor Protess?
6 A. Yes, that's part of the final package for
7 class.
8 Q· So when I get his file in the morning, I 9 should see two memoranda like this with the appropriate
10 dates on it?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q· Well, do you recall·?
13 ( ' A. Yes .
14 Q. You did a Taylor interview memoranda and a
15 Washington Park?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And so there should be in his package the
18 right date?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q· And what word processing software do you~hav~
21 on your computer?
22 A. Microsoft word.
23 Q· By the way, it said an object of further
24 investigation would be to get the blueprints of the old
25 pool layout and will try to do this during finals week,
51
1 did you ever do that?
2 A· I ran into a roadblock.
3 Q. And what was the roadblock?
4 A. Trying to find the office that would do this 5 and, you know, I had other finals to study for.
6 Q. Do you know then when you talked to
7 IMiss Jefferies and Mr. Pecarara (phonetic), were these 8 phone calls?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q· So they never got to see these photographs,
11 right?
12 A· They work right next to the pool. 13 Q· Okay. And Miss Jefferies is the.custodian 14 of the pool?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q· And Pecarara?
17 A. He is -- I forget the title. But he is ~ 18 handyman or utilities
manager or somebody who deals
19 with the pool.
20 Q. Did you talk to them the night or the day 21 that you were out there?
22 A. The day I was out there I got a number for 23 Miss Jefferies and called them the following couple 24 days.
25 Q. Did you endeavor to fine out whether these
3
52
1 canopied areas tha.t were in the grandstand in
2 November of '98 were in fact there in August of '82?
3 A. The same canopies I don't think were there.
4 Those are new canopies
5 Q. All right. Were there any canopies there?
6 A. I am not sure. I just know that the fence
7 is the same style and the concrete bleachers are the
8 same as in 1982. And he told me that the dimensions
9 of that pool are basically the same.
10 Q. Okay. So look at Grand Jury Exhibit E and
11 Grand Jury Exhibit H. You see the canopied section
_ 12 I am talking about; right?
13 A. I do.
14 Q· Did you ask Pecarara or Jefferies whether
15 those canopies were there in August of 1982?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q· And who did you ask?
18 A. I asked John Pecarara.
19 Q. Joe Pecarara?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did he tell you?
22 A. He thought there was some type of canopy
23 there before but those were newly installed.
24 Q· - And beyond that you didn't get blueprints or
25 any other kind of confirmation that there indeed was a
53
1 canopy there in that location?
2 A. That is right.
3 Q. Now, is part of the reason you sugg-ested in
4 ( everything that I have read about this case in the
5 newspapers is that the pool looked different and Taylor
6 couldn't have seen what he said he saw is because of
7 the canopies?
8 A. It is because of the rod-iron fence.
9 Q· And the difference between this rod-iron
10 fence and the rod-iron fence that was in '82 was what?
11 A. Nothing, just a newer fence, same style same
:· 12 makeup.
13 Q· Okay. And what are you saying td this
14 Grand Jury that when you are standing at this location
15 next to the pool you can't see up into the stands
16 because of the fence? Look at H.
17 (Witness looking at document.)
18 A. He was standing by the wall, he says.
19 Q. How do you know that?
20 A. He said it in his testimony while putting on
21 his clothes that were by the wall he looks up and sees
22 the murder.
23 And so when you are standing by the pool,
24 which is far away from the wall, you can see in the
25 bleachers but still the fence obstructs -- vou still
54
1 can't see much. And when you look from the wall, it
2 is just a wall of black. And, you know, at 1:00 in
3 the morning, you wouldn't be able to see a thing.
4 1 · Q. And this was all based on this re-enactment
5 that you did?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. You didn't go out there at 1:00 in the
8 morning?
9 A. Maybe 2:00.
10 Q. 2:00 in the morning?
11 A. 2:00 in the afternoon.
12 Q. So it was pretty ligh·t 'ou~· at 2:00 in the
13 afternoon?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I want you to just identify these reports
16 that you looked at before. I marked\them Grand Jury
17 Exhibit G-l through 5. Are those the reports that I
18 showed you early on?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And those are the reports that you looked at
21 today. You do recall them or don't recall them from
22 back then?
23· A. I do recall them. I don't recall reading
24 the Kenne-th Edwards' statement.
25 Q. So you looked at the reports, you just don't
55
1 recall the Kenneth Edwards' part?
2 A. Right. I remember skimming over them.
3 At that time I was interested in what William Taylor
4 and Henry Williams said.
5 Q· was there a particular reason you didn't find
6 the other witnesses anymore interesting?
7 A. Since you know there was such little time
8 left, you know, we had to move quickly so we just
9 looked at the two witnesses that went on to tell their
10 story in Court. And we decided to hold back on the
11 once that didn't make it to court~, that the prosecution
12 decided that they wouldn't use 'them.
13 Q. So your decision not to look at these other
14 two witnesses is fueled by what the prosecutors decided
15 in 1982?
16 A. Well, Anthony Porter was convicted based on
17 the testimony of two eye witnesses, one eye witness,
18 and another witness. And so we decided to look at
19 them.
20 Q· Why did you look at Waiter Jackson?
21 A. What do you mean?
22 Q· Why did you look at Waiter Jackson?
23 A. We talked to Waiter Jackson.
24 Q. . Why?
25 A. Because Anthony Porter mentioned that he saw
56
1 him in prison and he said that he knew something about
2 Alstory.
3 Q. Why did you talk to Inez Simon?
4 1 A. Because she was mentioned in affidavits
5 compiled by the defense through people in the
6 neighborhood.
7 Q. And these other three guys that you read in
8 these reports, they sort of corroborated what
9 Inez and Waiter Jackson was saying; is that right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Why didn't you look at them?
12 A. We just didn't. We· had a-person confessing
13 to the crime and, another person saying she was right
14 there, and we didn't think we needed anything else.
15 Q· There was a lot of time.
16 A. This is a class. And, you know, we didn't
17 have much time. I mean go to the places where you
18 will find the most information. You know, it is
19 either go to these people or go to the people that were
20 actually there. So we decided not to waste time
21 because, you know, we had three other classes to go to
22 and just try to talk to the two people that we thought
23 were closest to it.
24 1 MR. GAINER: Nothing else. I don't have
25 anything else.
57
1 A JUROR: How tall is that wall next to the
2 bleachers that Taylor was standing next to?
3 A. I believe it is a total of 11 or 12 feet.
4 1 - A JUROR: The solid portion of it or brick
5 portion of it is 11 or 12 feet?
6 A. The concrete portion was around 5 or 6 feet
7 tall.
8 A JUROR: How tall is William Taylor?
9 A. William Taylor is about 5'8, 5'9.
10 A JUROR: And the shooting happened at the top
11 of the grandstand?
12 A. Correct.
13 A JUROR: So he would only have to'step away a
14 couple inches or a coup~e feet?
15 A. There was another 5 or 6 foot fence on top of
16 that so that was a totalof 11 to 12 feet.
17 A JUROR: He could see through that portion of
18 it, the rod-iron portion?
19 ·1 A. Where he was standing through the angle of
20 the fence, he could just see black.
21 A JUROR: You have been through -- you were i
22 this at the beginning, you, and some of the members of
23 your group have changed. But the initial thrust o'f
24 the Porter investigating group, what was it as your --
25 what was your initial approach as you started in on
58
1 this investigation, where were you headed?
2 A. Just basically the same with all the other
3 cases. First you look at the testimony and the police
4 reports and things like that. Read it, find out,
5 you know, the basics of the case; and if there is
6 something odd about it, take note of it.
7 And then start interviewing the eye witness
8 or the witnesses at trial that placed him at the scene
9 of the murder, and then try to find an alternate
10 witness. And if, you know, you do find out that he
11 might be innocent or if you find ~out he is guilty, just
12 stop there.
13 But if you think he is innocent, and there is
14 an alternative suspect that people have been talking
15 about and people have been talking about Alstory Simon
16 and Inez Jackson for 16 years, we dec,ided to talk to
17 them. And, you know, you start at the paper trail,
18 the testimony, and work your way in to the witnesses to
19 the crime and then further into the alternate suspects.
20 A JUROR: At some point, did you and the group
21 think that perhaps a competency approach might be a wa
22 of getting him out of the death sentence?
23 A. The competency angle was already done before
24 we started the case. And so at first we were just
25 looking at the psychologist's reports, and some people
59
1 in our group went to his old schools trying to find
2 records on him and his mental capacity. And, you
3 know, we were just trying to work on that side of the
4 case.
5 A JUROR: So you worked on that si~de, y·ou
6 worked on that angle for awhile?
7 A. Right. We didn't really have too much time
8 to look at the other witnesses that Mr. Gainer was
9 talking about because in addition to going into the
10 park and re-enacting the scene and interviewing
11 William Taylor and doing all that~ stuff, we had to look
12 through the psychologist's report's and look at Wexler
13 tests and the Stanford test and do all the competency
14 stuff as well.
15 A JUROR: At some point or other you developed
16 a theory?
17 A. Yes.
18 A JUROR: That you do pursue; and as you look
19 1 at the paper trail, you look at the pieces of evidence
20 to see if it supports your theory, your hypothetical
21 view of perhaps what might be going down?
22 A. I think the theory is there is a guy in
23 1 prison, he might be innocent he might be guilty, let's
24 just look- at it with an opened mind and, you know, as
25 you go along and form an opinion based on the factsl.
60
1 A JUROR: But you didn't pursue four witnesses
2 who were in the police report, you didn't interview
3 them even though they were right there in front of you?
4 A. We probably would have done it differently if
5 Anthony's competency hearing hadn't been so soon and he
6 hadn't been so close to death. But we were pursuing
7 1 the truth up until William Taylor recanted his
8 testimony and said he saw nothing. And that was the
9 end of the first quarter. So we couldn't do anything
10 until the Ist of January and his competency hearing was
11 in a week or two.
12 So we had to shorten· things up and, you know,
13 we had a hunch·that he might be innocent and. we just
14 followed, you know, what we thought.
15 A JUROR: At any time, did you personally ever
16 see that your grade was dependent upon your findings?
17 A. I mean I thought my grade was dependent upon
18 how hard I worked, how many hours I put in it.
19 He always mentioned the fact that if the students
20 uncover a truth about a suspect that says he committed
21 murders, then he would give an A as well.
22 This is a really rare thing. It is usually
231just do an investigation and find some stuff. And,
24 you know,.another class looks at it in another few
25 months and, you know, it hardly ever goes this fast[
61
1 and, you know, we just try to did it as best as we
2 could.
3 BY MR. GAINER:
4 Q. The class began in September of 1998,
5 September 26, and you talked to Taylor in November?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Of 1998?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. About 6 or 7 weeks go by before you even talk
10 to Taylor; right?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. And as far as I can tell, 'you didn't talk to
13 anybody in those six or seven weeks, right?
14 A. Oh, I was doing competency things in the
15 midst of that.
16 Q· Did you ever say to anybody,we need to go
17 look at these other witnesses?
18 A. I never did.
19 Q· So what's your explanation, that you didn't
20 have any time?
21 A. .I suppose. I mean I don't really have an
22 explanation.
23 Q. I want to follow-up on one of the questions
24 asked by ·the Grand Juror. You are talking about this
25 whole notion that Taylor couldn't have seen what he
62
1 said he saw because of where he was positioned; right? 2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you are referring to the transcript where 4 1 he says, Page 380:
5 " Q Okay. Now, sir, after you went for a
6 swim, did you come out of the water?
7 "A Yes.
8 "Q Okay. And when you came out, where
9 did you go?
10 "A Towards the wall where my clothes
11 were.
12 "Q Okay. And.w~iere, sir, were you 13 clothes situated with respect to the
14 bleachers ·or the spectator area by the
15 1 pool?
16 "A Along the wall.
17 "Q Okay. Along the wall. Which wall
18 is that now? Is this the wall that
19 separates the pool area from the
20 bleachers?
21 1 II A Yes.
22 "Q Or another wall?
23 ( IIA No, the one that separates the pool
24 ( from the bleachers.
25 'Q And what did you do once you
63
1
reached the point where your clothing 2 was?
3 II A I grabbed a towel and was drying 4 1 myself off.
5 nQ Okay. And did you have occasion
6 to look around the area at that point?
7 "A Yes.
8 "Q And could you see anybody?
9 "A Yes.
io "Q And what was it that you saw?
11 "A I saw a man being shot. 1 12
Q· Is that the testimony.that.:compels you to 13 reach the conclusion that he couldn't see w~at he said 14 he saw?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you read the cross-examination at 418 of 17 the record where the lawyer for Mr. Porter said: 18
"Q Now, imagining this railing to be the 19 pool area or where the pool starts, the 20 wall, how far from this wall were you when
211 you say you saw this gentleman here shoot 22 someone?
23 "THE COURT: Referring --
24 1 ·"BY MR. GURSEL:
25 nQ To the defendant, Mr, Porter.
64
1 "A From that wall to about the end of that
2 podium.
3 "Q This podium here?
4 1 · "A Yes.
5 "Q How far away from the wall in
6 estimation of feet were you in terms of bein
7 close to the wall?
8 "A About 5 feet.
9 Q- So you made this man -- you were compelled
10 to the conclusion that he could not have seen what he
11 said he saw based on his direct examination, right?
12 But you apparently overlookedl· Mr; MCCann, the
13 cross-examination?
14 A. I looked at the cross-examination. But when
15 I asked William Taylor himself on December, I told him
16 about the inconsistencies where you were at the wall
17 and he said I was putting on my clothes against the
18 wall. And I said did you know that with the rod-iron
19 fence you can't see anything.
20 Q· Did you read that cross-examination?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q· You knew that he had taken himself five feet
231 away from the rod-iron fence and the wall when he
24 looked up·and saw the gunshots; right?
25 A. Yes.
65
1 Q. Did you point this out to your professor?
2 A. He read the testimony as well.
3 Q. And now you are saying that it was what he
4 told you in November after he had twice said he didn't
5 want to talk about this case, after good cop bad cop,
6 that you found so compelling that you reached the
7 conclusion that he couldn't see what he said he saw;
8 right?
9 A. Right, and the fact that he was far away.
10 I Q. Did you interview Alstory Simon?
11 A. I did not.
12 Q. Inez Jackson?
13 A. No.
14 MR. GAINER: Nothing else.
15 THE FOREPERSON: Are there any further
16 questions?
17 (No response.)
18 (Witness excused.)
19 1 (I nvestigation continues.)
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)·~·*
I 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS
2 ) SS:
3 COUNTY OF C O O K )
6 I, ANNETTE E. FAKLIS, a Certified
7 Shorthand Reporter licensed to practice in the
8 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that I
9 reported in shorthand the proceedings had in the
10 hearing of the above entitled cau·se; that I
11 thereafter caused the foregoing to be transcribed
12 into typewriting, ~which I hereby certify is a true
13 and accurate transcript of the proceedings had
14 before the Grand Jury of Cook County.
15
16 ~d~~f~Zk~UJ 17 11 - ANNETTE E. FAKLIS, CSR
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