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Transcript of “Stephen Porges: The Polyvagal Theory & The Vagal Nerve – #264”

Bulletproof Radio podcast #264

Bulletproof Toolbox Podcast #264, Stephen Porges

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Dave: Hey,it'sDaveAsprey.Beforewegetstartedwithtoday'sshowlet'stalkaboutCasperMattresses.ThestartupguidetoCasperarewinningdesignawards,gettingpropsforreinventingthehumblemattressandturningtheindustryupsidedown.Theystartedwithasimplemission,tocreateaperfectlyengineeredmattressthatyoucouldtryinthecomfortofyourownhome.Caspershipsthemattresstoyouforfreeandgivesyou100nightstotryit,againriskfree.They'llcomepickitupifyoudon'tloveitandrefundyoueverythingnoquestionsasked.UpgradingyoursleepisoneofthemoreimportantthingsyoucandotoincreaseyouroverallperformanceandCasperhascreatedaninexpensivewaytohackyourrestlessnights.Here'swhatelseIlikeaboutCasperMattresses.AllofthefoamsusedinCasperhaveenvironmentalcertificationsthatensurethey'rehealthytobearound.TheirmaterialsareSertaPurecertifiedmeaningthey'remadewithoutozonedepletersorPVDEflameretardants.

They'remadewithoutmercury,lead,andotherheavymetals.There'snoformaldehydeorthalatesandthey'reregulatedbytheConsumerProductSafetyCommissionaslowVOC.Takethemupontheir100nightriskfreetriallikeIdid.UpgradetoaCasperwithfreeshippingatcasper.com.UsemypersonalreferralcodeBULLETPROOFtoget$50offyourmattress.That'scodeBULLETPROOFfor$50offyourmattressatcasper.com.Termsandconditionsapply.

Audio: Bulletproofradio,astateofhighperformance.

Dave: Hey,it'sDaveAspreywithBulletproofradio.Today'scoolfactofthedayisthatifyoudon'tlikethesoundofpeoplebreathingorchewingyou'renotalone.Youmayactuallyhaveadisordercalledmisophoniawhichiswhenyouhaveanextremenegativeemotionalresponsetoauditorystimuli.Wedon'treallyknowwhetherthat'sbecauseofdysfunctionalsignalsintheneuronsoftheanteriorsinguletcortexandinsularcortex.ThosearerelatedtoTourette'ssyndrome,orwhetherit'sfromsomethingelsebutsomepeoplereally,reallydon'tlikeitwhenyoupopyourgumsoifyou'redoingthatmaybeyoushouldjustnotchewthegumbecauseit'sbadforyourtrigeminalnerveanyway.


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It'stimetotalkaboutsomethingthatI'vebeenwaitingforallsummerlongandthatisthatwehavethenewchocolatefuelbarsthathavecomeout.Nowthatit'scoolenoughformetoshipyouchocolatewe'veenrichedthisstuffwithbrainoctaneoil,zerosugarchocolate.Thechocolate'slabtestedformoldtoxinsasyouwouldexpectandthisisthebestchocolateformulawe'vecomeupwithyet.Eachyearwetweakandtwistandyouaregoingtobeamazedatthenewchocolatefuelbars.Checkthemoutifyouhaven'thadachancetogiveitatry.Today'sguestissomeoneI'mreallyexcitedtohaveontheshow.He'sadistinguisheduniversityscientistatIndianaUniversitywhereherunsthetraumaresearchcenterintheKenzieInstitute.HisnameisDr.StevenPorgess.He'saprofessorofpsychiatryattheUniversityofNorthCarolina,aprofessoremeritusattheUniversityofIllinoisatChicago,andthereheranthebrainbodycenterandthedepartmentofpsychiatry,andhechairedthedepartmentofhumandevelopmentanddirectedtheinstituteforchildstudy.

Inotherwords,thisguy'sbeenstudyingthingsthatmakeusgoatvery,veryfinelevelsofdetailforprettymuchhiswholecareerandhe'shadavery,verydistinguishedone.Steven,welcometotheshow.

Steven: Thankyou,David.

Dave: Ionlyreadlike10%ofthecoolstuffyou'vedoneherebutyouwerepresidentofthepsychophysiologicalresearchandactuallyI'mnotevengoingtoreadallthatstuff,ahugebodyof20,000behavioralscientistsandyou'rethepresidentofthataswell.Forpeoplethatdon'tknowyou'resortoflikeoneoftheknownpeopleinyourfieldyoucouldsay.

Steven: Actually,that'sinthepastsoIdon'tdothattodaybutyes,myworkbasicallycrossesmanydisciplines,notmerelythebehavioralsciencesbutalsomanyoftheneurobiologicalsciences.

Dave: ThereasonIwantedtotalktoyoutodaywasthatyouaretheoriginalguywhoproposedsomethingcalledpolyvagaltheorywhichlinkedsortofhowourautomaticnervoussystem,orautonomicnervoussystemtiestosocialbehaviorsandIjustwouldloveforeveryonelisteningto


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hearwhatispolyvagaltheoryandwhyshouldtheycareaboutit?That'sprobablyagreatwaytostarttheinterview.

Steven: Well,it'sprobablyagoodwaybutitcouldtakethewholeinterviewsoletmejustkindof,it'saquestionthatI'malwaysaskedandsurprisinglyIneverknowhowI'mgoingtoanswerit.Let'sbasicallybreakitdowntosomethingquitesimple.Whatcanwelearnfromtheevolutionofourspecies?Whatcanwelearnfromhowotheranimals,othervertebratesthatprecededusbehavedandfunctioned?Especiallyfromtheirautonomicnervoussystem.Whatcanwelearn?Whatwelearnedreallyisthatneurocircuitswereusedbymoreprimitivevertebratestobasicallyshutdown,tomakethemselvesappearinanimate.Itbecameadefensesystemandthenasvertebratesevolvedtheydevelopedsystemstomobilizeandweknowthisintermsofourownwordsasfightorflight.Thenwhathappenedwithmammalsisthattheyhadaneuroautonomicnervoussystemthatfunctionallygotlinkedtothenervesthatregulatetheirfaceandtheirvoice.

Basicallytheyweartheirheartintheirvoiceandontheirfaceandtheycommunicatethosequeuestoothers.OncewestartunderstandingaboutthesechangesintheautonomicnervoussystemwestartunderstandingwhatliterallyareneuroplatformsareforbehaviorandIjustwanttobasicallygivethemainpunchlinehereandthatiswhatweare,weactuallyareaproductofevolutionandthroughevolutionwedidn'tthrowouteverything.Werepurposeditandweuseditfordifferentpurposesandwechangeditslightly.Wehaveinourbodycircuitsthatcanbeusedfordefenseandcircuitsthatcanbeusedforsocialinteractionalbehaviors.Thosecircuitsfordefenseunfortunatelyhavebeenmisunderstoodbymostofbehavioralscientists,mostoftheclinicalscientistsaswellbecauseweliterallyhave2circuitsofdefense.

Wehavetheverypopularone,fightandflight,butwealsohaveamoreancientonewhichisashutdownimmobilization,becomeinanimate,deathfeigningandthisistheonethatistriggeredinindividualswhoarerestrainedandhavenooptiontogetout.Thesebecomeresponsestolifethreatandwhatthepolyvagaltheorydoes,itexplainsalotofthesebehaviorsandphysiologicalconsequenceswhichareanamazingnumberofphysicalhealthailmentswhichwewilldiscussthatco-occur


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withshiftingintothesedifferentphysiologicalstates.PolyvagaltheoryinformsustounderstandournativebiologicalreactionstosafetycuesandtodangercuesandI'mgoingtocategorizeanotherone,lifethreateningcues.

Dave: Allright,thisisexciting.Anyonewho'slistenedtotheshowforawhileknowsItalkalotaboutautonomicnervoussystemactivation,heartratevariabilitytraining,essentiallyturningoffthefightorflightwhenit'snotservingyou.Whatyou'reteachingusandwhatyouproposedalittlebitmorethan20yearsagonowisthatthere's2systems,right?Canyougoalittlebitdeeperonthesecondsystemthatdoesn'thelpyourunawayfromtigers?

Steven: Thesecondsystemiswhatyouseeinpetstoresifyoulookatreptiles.Theyimmobilize.Theyjustdon'tmove.Theyinasensearetryingtobecomeinanimateandreptileshavethiscapacityandtheywilldefecateandtheywillstopbreathingandtheycandothisforlongperiodsoftimebecausetheirmetabolicdemandsareverylowandtheydon'tneedmuchoxygen.Theproblemiswhenmammalsdothisourmetabolicdemandsaregreat.Weneedlotsofoxygenandthiscanbepotentiallylethalsothemetaphorortheurbanmyththatthepersondiedoutoffearisthattheperson'sheartstoppedwiththismechanismwhichisthroughavagalpathway.WhatIdidn'tquiteexplainwasthatbasicallythepolyvagaltheorygotitsnamebecausetherewere2differentvagalpathwaysandthedifferentvagalpathwayshaddifferentfunctionaladaptivecapacities.

Theonethatyou'rereallyaskingmeisimmobilizationasadefensebutit'snotimmobilizationwithvoluntaryI'mgoingtositstillsoIwon'tbeeatenbythetiger.Mybodygoesthere.Idon'ttellittogothereandIdon'twantittogothereoftenandthisisreallytheconsequencesofpeoplewhohavesufferedveryseveretraumaexperiencesorabuseexperiences.Theirbodyjustshutsdownandpsychologicallythepartthatremainswiththemfordecadesisdissociation.Theygosomeplaceelse.

Dave: Howcommonisthatphenomenainthegeneralpopulation?


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Steven: WellasIstarttouseinasensethetheorytodecodethebehaviorsofpeopleIamtotallyshockedatthenumberofpeoplewhofunctionallyhavelivedagoodportionoftheirlivesindissociativestatesandhavebeenunawareofit.Ofcoursethey'reunawarebecausethey'redissociated.Theissueispartofoursocietyhastodealwithtellingpeoplenottofeeltheirbody,to"getoverit,""livewithit,""proceedwithit,"andalsoalotofthemedicaltreatmentmodelsarereallymodelsofdampeningthefeedbackloopsfromourautonomicnervoussystemthatsupportourhealth,growth,andrestorationbecausesometimesthosesignalsaretellingusthere'sbadstuffgoingon.

Ithinkit'squitecommonandwhatIoftensayinmytalks,IsaywhatifDakarwasmisinterpreted?Whatifhedidn'treallysay“jepensedoncjesuis”.Nowyou'regoingtohearmyhorribleFrenchaccentbutyou'reinCanada,youprobablyarticulateitbetter,buthesaysIthinkthereforeIam.Whatifhehadsaid“Jemesensdoncjesuis”?Ifeelmybody,IfeelmyselfthereforeIam.IfyouknowFrenchIselectedthereflexiveverbwhichisnottofeeltotouchbuttofeelone'sselfandthatisevenmissingfromourlanguageinEnglish.Wedon'thaveadifferentworkforfeelingobjectversusfeelingourselvessowegetconfusedwithouruseofwords.

WhatifhehadsaidIfeelmyself,thereforeIam.Nowaskanyonewhohassufferedfromseveretraumaexperiencesorabuse,theydon'tfeeltheirbodies.Thatiswhatgoes.

Dave: I'mgoingtoaskyoutodoanarmchairdiagnosiswhichyouevergetateverycocktailparty,butnotreallyanarmchairdiagnosisbutI'lljustrelayapersonalanecdotethatIthinksupportsthisbutjusttellmeifitdoes.Ididapersonalgrowthseminaralongtimeago,morethan15yearsago,andIwasworkingwithaverytalentedtranspersonalkindofpsychologistandIwasfeelingreally,reallyuncomfortableaboutthewholething.BasicallyshesaidyouhavetobefeelingsomethingandIsaidyeah,I'mfeelingprettyangryaboutthiswholethingsoI'mfeelingjustfinethankyouverymuch.Shesaidthenwhydoyouwanttoleavetheroom,whyareyouuncomfortable?IsaidIdon'treallyknowbutit'sjustbecauseI'mpissedoff.Afteradayofthiskindofarguingwithme


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finallyshesaidistheresomeotherfeelinginyourbody?Isaidyeah,mystomachfeelsalittleweird.

Shelooksatmeandshegoesyeah,thatfeeling?That'scalledfear.I'mlikereally?BecauseIhadinternalizedthatwhilethereisnoreasontobeafraidthereforeI'mnotafraidthereforeI'lljustignoreallthatstuff.SincethenI'velearnednottoignorethosethingsbecausethere'sactuallyvalueinthesignal.Isthiswhatwe'retalkingaboutoristhatsomethingelse?

Steven: Well,it'spartofit.Inmymodelingthere'saconceptthatIcallneuroceptionandthat'sthedetectionofriskordangerintheenvironment.Thisisnotperception.Perceptionisacognitionandthat'swhatyouwereinvolvedin.Youweren'tcognitivelyperceivinganythingbutyourbodywasrespondingsothat'sneuroceptioninmyterminology.Yournervousnessmadeyouevaluateriskandsaidokay,somethingnotgoodishappeningsoyouhavethesebodilyfeelings.ThewordI'mtendingtousenowisthatthesearenowimplicitfeelingsandnowyou'restuckintheworldofhowdoyoudealwithimplicitfeelings?Wellyoutrytogetexplicitlanguageandactivity.Inasensethatbecomesthewholethemeofalltraumatherapiesthataresuccessfulandthatishavingpeoplelearntounderstandtheirimplicitfeelingsandtocontainthemandtokindofregulatethemwithexplicitorvoluntarybehavior.We'llseethisinothertypesoftherapieswhichI'msureyou'llaskmebutwhatyouhad,somewhereinthatroomyourbodywaspickingupcues,yournervoussystem.

Notnecessarilyyourconsciousawarenessandit'snotevenkinkybecauseaverysmallpartofoursensoryreactionsareactuallydealingwithconsciousawareness.Ourbrainisabigorganandit'sprocessinginformationevenathighlevels.Throughevolutionweevaluatedrisknotthroughaninternaldecisionofisthatdangerousorisitnotdangerous?ShouldIgetintothatcar?ShouldInotgetintothecar?Thosedecisionsweremadeveryrapidlywithabiologicalresponsethatwethenactedwith.Whathappenedtoyouisyougotabiologicalresponseandyouwantedtoactwithitornotactwithit.Yougotintothatdialogue.


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Dave: TheworkingtheoryforwhathappenedisthatIwasactuallybornwiththeumbilicalcordaroundmyneckandIwasposteriorsoIhadsubstantialbirthtraumaandwhatwasgoingonintheroomwasotherpeopleintheworkshopweredealingwiththeirownbirthstuffanditmademynervoussystemanywayfeelreallyuncomfortablebecausetherewasasurvivallevelthreat,atleastitthoughtthat.Iknewtherewasn'tbutthefactyouknowitandyoufeelit,theydidn'tmatch.

Steven: Okay,yougavemeenoughinformationformetodeconstructit.Ratherthansaybirthtraumabecausethatcarrieswithitallkindsofpsychoanalyticdiscussions,let'ssayyouhadahypoxicresponse.Now,thebody'sresponsetohypoxiaislifethreat.It'sshuttingdown.Phylogeneticallyandalsodevelopmentallyhowdowedealifourbodystartstoshutdown?There'sonlyonethingwecando.Wemobilizebecauseifwemobilizesincetheautonomicnervoussystemishierarchicallyorganized,andwe'llgetbacktothat,aslongaswemobilizeournervoussystemcan'tshutdown.Youfindoutthatpeoplewhohavetraumaexperiencesareoftendoingrisktakingbehaviorsandhighactivitybehaviors.It'sbecausetheirbodyknowsthatiftheysitstillthey'renowvulnerabletoshuttingdown.

Dave: Wow.

Steven: Okay,yougotitalittlebecauseyouareamobilizer.

Dave: Justalittlebit.

Steven: Theissueis,infactifyoustartaskingquestionsaboutpeoplebaseduponthetraumahistorytherearetermsyoucanseeevenintheirbody,andthesearewordsthatyou'llprobablycomeupwithfromotherpeople,tightlywrappedintermsofthemusclesaretightandyoumightsayohthat'sananxioustypeperson,oryou'dhearintheirvoice.Theywouldbetakingveryfewslowexhalationsandthereasontheywouldn'tbeexhalingairslowlyisthatthatwouldputtheminamoreofthisvagalcalmstateandthey'rescaredofthat.

Dave: Let'stalkaboutthevagalnerveandthevagalresponsebecauseIthinkalotofpeoplelistening,mostpeopleareeitheratworkordrivingtheir


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carsrightnow.Theymightnotunderstandwhatisthevagalnerve,whatisthevagaltones.Canyouwalkthroughthat,whereitcomesfrom?

Steven: Sure,okay.Thevagusisacranialnerve.Whatthatmeansisanervethatcomesoutofthebrain.Nowthereisawholeimportanthistoryherebecauseitgoesoutofthebrainbutitregulatesmany,manyorgansinourbody.Itisactuallyconveyinginformationfromthebraintoyourheart,toyourbronchi,toyourgutandsothesephysiologicalresponsesyouareoftengettingareoftendrivenbybrainsignals.Thisisveryimportanttounderstandbecausemostmedicinebasicallytreatsorgansastheareaofthediseaseandnotneuroregulationoftheorganasatleasttheantecedentforthediseasebecauseinmedicalschoolpeoplearenottrainedmuchaboutneuroregulationoforgans.Infact,thisisonequestionIalwaysaskphysicianswhoareinmyworkshops,Isayhowmuchtimedidyouspendstudyingthesensorypathwaysofthevagus?

Theansweristheymayhaveheardaboutitbuttheycertainlydidn'tstudyin.Nowthevagusisthisbigcranialnervethatleavesthebrain,comesoutofthebackofourheadandithas80%ofitsfibersaresensoryandthey'rebasicallyrunningasurveillanceteamofourinternalorgans.They'resendingthisinformationuptoourbrainstem.Ourbrainstemisdoingalittlebitofinterpretationandthesendingsignalsupwardtohigherbrainstructuresayingit'sokaytoattend,youdon'thavetobehypervigilant,youdon'thavetoruntothebathroom,youdon'thavetoeat.It'stellingyoucanIinteractordoIhavetoprotectmyself?Thesignalsarebeinginterpretedandthenthey'recreatingportalstoallowcognitiveandaffectivesystemstowork.

Nowwhatthepolyvagaltheorydoes,andI'mactuallygoingtogobacktoyourearlierquestionbecauseit'sveryimportanthereandI'mgoingtolinkitbacktoyouasababy.Ihavedoneworkinobstetricsandpediatrics.Ididabout20yearsofresearchinthatareameasuringtheheartratepatternsofbabiesandfetusesbecausetheheartratepatternsofthebabyandthefetuswasconveyinginformationaboutvagalfunction.Youcouldactuallystartassayingliterallywithaphysiologicalmarkerhowmuchvagalactivitywasoccurring.IreallyfeltIknewwhatIwasdoing,andthisgoesbackintotheearly1990sandIwasvery


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pleasedwithhavingdevelopednewmethodstoextractfromheartratevariabilityanextraordinarilyreliableindexofthevagalinfluence.Ihavetotellyou,thisisprobablytheonepointyouprobablydon'tknowandthatisI'mthefirstpersontoeverquantifyheartratevariability.

Dave: Really?Idoitallthetimewithclients.I'manadvisortotheheartmathinstitute.Oh,mygoodness.Ididnotknowthat.Congratulations!

Steven: Well,that'sanotherstoryandthatwentbackintothe1960sanditwasaperiodoftimethatwhenIwastalkingaboutheartratevariabilitypeoplewouldsayyouhaveheartratevariabilityinyoursubjects,Steve,becauseyou'rejustabadscientist.Ifyouwereagoodscientisttheheartwouldjustbebeatingconstantlywaitingforastimulusandthenitwouldrespond.PeopleweresonaïveaboutneurofunctionandIwastryingtoexplainthatevenintheearly1900stheywereidentifyingvagalfibersthatwerecardioinhibitorywhetherornottheyhadarespiratoryrhythm.Thiswholefocusonrespiratorysciencearrhythmiaasafunctionalindexofthenewmyelinatedvagus,whichI'llgetto,isveryimportant.

Backtothebabywork.InIguessitwouldbethe1970s,80s,anduptoearly90sIwasstudyingbabies.Ifeltthatheartratevariabilityandrespiratorysciencearrhythmiawasthiswonderfulindexofhowhealthythebabywas.IpublishedapaperinamajorjournalcalledPediatricsshowingthatpre-termbabieshadlessrespiratorysciencearrhythmiawhichIcalledvagaltone,thanfulltermbabies.Thiswasreallywhatwasgoingon.Igotaletter,andthisisofcoursebeforethetimeofemail,andIgotaletteranditwasfromaneonatologistandtheneonatologistsaidIreallylikeyourpaper,howeverwhenIwasinmedicalschoolIwastaughtthatthevaguscankillyou.Perhapstoomuchofagoodthingisbad.IhadthatletterandIwasreallyperplexedbecauseIknewtoomuchofagoodthingwasn'tbad.Thatwasthewrongunderstanding.

Ialsoknewthatbabieswhohadthe...Ihavetobacktrackforamoment.IhavetotellyoufirstImorphedintohisperspectivebecauseneverarguewithpeopleunlessyouunderstandtheirperspectiveandhisperspectivewasthatasaneonatologistapneasandbradycardias,the


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sensationofbreathingandtheslowingofheartratewereclinicalindicatorsorbadstuff,highrisk,andtheywerevagal.

Dave: Gotit.

Steven: Iwastalkingabouttheserhythmicitiesinheartratesupportinghomeostaticfunctionwhichwerealsovagal.

Dave: Whatwe'resayingthereisthatthere'sthese2differentthingsthatthevagusnervecando.

Steven: Wellthenervecandobutthatdoesn'tmakeanysense,doesit?Ibasicallysaidokay,thisisavagalparadox.NowIhavetofigurethisout.IfigureditoutbybasicallystudyingeverythingIcouldfindaboutthevagus.Thatdidn'thelpmeuntilIwentintostudyingcomparativeneuroanatomyandthattoldmeabouttheevolutionarytransitions.Whatyoufindoutisyoumayhaveonevagalnervebutit'saconduitwithdifferentfiberssotheconceptualizationwaswrong.Youhadtothinkthattherearedifferentfibersandtheycomefromdifferentpartsofthebrain.Theso-calledgoodvagalfibers,whichbythewayrepresentonly3%oftheentirevagalfibersinthevagus,aremyelinated,comefromtheareainthebrainstemcallednucleusambiguousandinteractinthebrainstemwiththeareathatcontrolsyourfacialmuscles,yourlaryngealmuscles.Theycontrolvocalizations,facialexpressivity,andeventhemusclesinyourmiddleearthatcontrollistening.

Dave: Forpeoplewhodon'tknowmyelination,myelinationiswhathappenswhenthebodyinsulatesnerveswithalayeroffatandthatallowsthenervestocarryelectricityfasterandwithlessresistancethannormalnerves.Whatyou'resayingisthatthepartofthevagusnervethatallowsustobasicallymoveourfaceandhearanddosomeotherkeycommunicationsisbetterorfasterthantherestofthenerve.AmIsayingthatright?

Steven: Wellclose.Let'sseparateandlet'sconceptualize.Inthebrainstemyouhaveacolumnandacolumnoffibersoracolumnofcellsthatarethesourceoriginforallthestriatedmusclesofthefaceandhead.Thatincludesmiddlehearmuscles,musclesofingestion,musclesoffacial


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expressivity,musclesofthelarynxandthosearestriatedmusclesandtheycommunicateinthebrainstemwiththeareathatcontrolsthatmyelinatedvagus.They'renotvagalbutthey'repartofavagalcomplex.

Dave: Gotit,sotheyworktogether.

Steven: Theyworktogetherandnowletmegiveyoualittlesideviewonthat.IfyouthinkabouttheevolutionofmammalianspeciesIwasgoingtoaskyouthisquestionbecauseyoulikefactoidsandsothequestionisifyoufoundafossilhowwouldyouknowitwasamammal?

Dave: That'saninterestingquestion.IthinkwelookatbonestructureforthemostpartbutIdon'tknow,I'mnotafossilologist.

Steven: Thecriticalfeatureiswhetherthemiddleearboneshavebrokenoffthejawbone.

Dave: Really?Ididn'tknowthat.

Steven: Yes.Okay,nowthat'swhatmammalshave,middleearbonesbreakoffthejawbone.Theybecometheossiclechainthatenablesustohearlowvolume,higherfrequencyvoicesinbackgroundnoisesonlyifwehaveneuraltonetothosemiddleearstructures.Ifwedon'thaveneuraltonetothosemiddleearstructureswebecomehypersensitivetolowfrequencysoundsbecauselowfrequencysoundsgothroughboneconductionandtheysignalpredator.

Dave: Oh.

Steven: Okay?Whatyoustartseeingisifthismyelinatedvagusandthefacialmusclesaren'tworkingpeopletendtohaveauditoryhypersensitivitiesandhavedifficultyunderstandinghumanvoiceinbackgroundsettings.

Dave: Whatdoyoudoaboutthat?

Steven: Wellyoucanrehabilitateit.That'sactuallykindofwhatI'vebeenworkingonandIhaveacoupleclinicaltrialsonthatbutthecues,whatyouhavetodoisbasicallyusetheprinciplesofneuroceptionwhicharethatcuesofsafetyhavetotriggeraninhibitionofdefense.Whatare


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cuesofsafety?I'lltellyou,they'renothavingteacherscarryingguns.Thosearenotcuesofsafety.Cuesofsafetyareintonationofvoice,prosodicvoices,mother-ese.Ifyouhaveadogorcatyouknowhowtotalktothem.Youuseaprosodicintonationofvoice.Ourneuroception,ournervoussystemdetectsthatasacueofsafetyandinhibitsthoselimbicreactivestructures.Talkingdoesn'talwayscalmpeopledownbuttalkinginaprosodicwayandlisteningwill.

Dave: Interestingsojustspeakinginthatwayandlisteningandbeingspokentointhatwaycanaffectyourverycorenervoussystem.Wow.

Steven: Absolutely.Oneofthelet'ssayfieldexperimentsthatIrunwhenItravelistowatchtoddlerswiththeirparentsandthekidsarealwaysscreamingwhenthefatherhasthetoddlerandthenthetoddler'sputovertothemotherandthemotherlooks,reaches,andsaysawordandthetoddler'sfine.

Dave: Right,andit'sthetoneofvoice?

Steven: Toneofvoice,thegesture.It'sthecomplexsetofcues,whilethefather'svoiceislower,especiallywhentheygetirritatedintheairport.Itgetslouderandlower,moremonotoneandthatinthebodyisatriggerofdefense.Itwilltriggerdefense.Theissueiswhydidthisoccurthroughevolution?Itoccurred,sothere'sabigsetofquestions.Peoplesaywellifyou'reanevolutionarypsychologistyoubasicallyfocusonselectiononbehaviorbutifyou'reanevolutionarybiologistyoudon'tcareaboutbehavior.Theissueisasthecerebrum,asthecortexinthebraingotlargeritputpressureonthejawboneandmiddleearbonesbrokeoff.

Dave: Wow.

Steven: Nowwhatdidthatdointermsofadaptivefunction?Itenabledmammalstohaveanacousticfrequencybandtointeractthatwouldnotbedetectedbythepredatorswhichwerereptiles.

Dave: Wow,okay.

Steven: Second,itenabledthemtodetectintheirconspecificoftheirownspecieswhethertheyweresafetocomeclosetoorweretheygoingto


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haveafight?Nowweknowthissowhenpeopletalktousweknowwhetherthey'refriendlyornot.Youhaveenough,lookyoumakealivinginterviewingpeopleonspectrum.

Dave: It'sreallyfunny,mykidsareinaWaldorfschool.They're6and8andtheteacherswalkaroundtalkinglikethisanditdrivesmeinsane.InfactIthinkitdriveseverynormalparentinsanebutyoujustexplainedwhy.Theysaywellitmakesthekidscalm.Thisiswhatworksforkids.Thesethingsareenhancingthekid'svagaltonebyusingthosevoices.

Steven: Yeah,they'reenablingthevagaltonetocomebackonboardandthatwillsupportresilliancebecausethatvagaltone,thevagaltoneofthemyelinatedvagusenablesyoursympatheticnervoussystemandtheothervagalcircuit,whichisgoingbelowyourdiaphragm,nottoberecruitedfordefense.Theagendaincreatingahealthyworldorlifeistoenableyourautonomicnervoussystemtosupporthealth,growth,andrestorationandnottorecruititfordefense.

Dave: Let'ssaythatagoodportionofpeoplelisteningtothishavesomeproblem,somedegreeofproblemwiththeirvagaltone.I'mcertainlyoneofthemgivenjustmybirthhistoryandjustallthestuffthatI'vedealtwith.Iusedtoweigh300poundsandhadallkindsofotherlikeproblemsthatI'vehacked.Whatwouldyouadvisesomeonetodoiftheysaidallright,Iwantabettervagalresponse.I'dliketobehealthier,Iwanttobemoreresilient.HowdoIdothatasanadult?

Steven: Okay,butyou'rebasicallygivingmelotsofinformationthatIcanworkwithbeforeIgotothat.Ifyourvagalregulationisn'tworkingrightyouwillgravitatetotrytoregulatevagaltonethroughdifferentmechanismsandoneofthemisingestion.Ingestionutilizesthesamefeaturesorsamenervesthatsocialbehavioruses,butitdoesn'thavevocalizationswithitanddoesn'thavetouch,itdoesn'thavegesturebutit'sanattemptlikesuckingorchewinggumareattemptsforthebodytotrytorecruitthis,integrateit.Icallitintegratedsocialengagementsystemwhichincludesthatvagalactivity.Now,ifyouwanttodealwiththisfromamoreproactivewayaspectslikesinging,playingwindinstrumentswhichforceyoutoexhaleslowlyandthevagalefferentactionofthisnewermyelinatedvagushappensduringexhalationso


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nowyouunderstandtheneuromechanismsunderlyingpranayamayoga.

Dave: Somethingthat'shelpedmeandsomethingIrecommendforalotofpeople.

Steven: Becauseduringexhalationthevagalefferent'sworkbutmorethanthatwhenyoupushthediaphragmdownthesensorypartofthevagusisstimulated,potentiallyit'sthosevagalmotorfibersworkingbetter.Whenyoudobreathingandpartofpranayamahastodowithstimulationofthefaceandthat'swheresensoryafferenceofthefacialmuscles,ofactuallyit'scranialnerve7whichisthefacialnerveandcranialnerve5whichistrigeminalwhichdealswithwhenyougotothedentistyouknowabouttrigeminal,thesensorypartofthatgoesintotheareaofthebrainstemthatregulatesthemyelinatedvagus.We'realwaystryingtogetthatsystemtoworkbecausethatsystemdownregulatesthedefensemodes,itdownregulatessympatheticactivityanditprotectsthatsubdiaphramaticothervagusfromgoingintodefense.Itenablesittosupporthealth,growth,andrestorationandinyourworldfacilitatedigestion.

Dave: OneoftheotherthingsthatIfirstlearnedaboutalmost10yearsagowasstickingyourfaceinicewaterforaminuteorsoasawaytobasicallycalmthevagalnerve.What'syourtakeonthat?

Steven: Okay,soyou'rerecruitinganancientdivereflexbutthere'saproblemwiththatbecausepartofthedivereflexrecruitstheunmyelinatedvagus.

Dave: Oh,interesting.

Steven: It'sbecauseincertainanimals,ithastodowiththeslopeofthebradycardia.Howfastdoestheheartrategodown?Somepeoplewhohavebeendrowningvictimswhohaven'treallydrowned,they'vebeenresuscitatedafterbeingincoldwaterformorethan20minutes,it'sbecausethebodywentintothatstate.Itwentintothisdeathfeigningstatesotheissueismaybe,maybenotwithyouricewater.Itmightbehelpfultomonitoryourheartratetoseehowmuchitdrops.Ifitdrops


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downinto40beatsperminuteI'dbealittlebitconcerned.Ifyougetitdowntothelow60s...Youworkoutsowhat'syourbasalheartrate?

Dave: It'saround70.

Steven: Whenyouwakeupinthemorningdoyoumeasureitthen?Beforeyoustandup.

Dave: It'susuallyaround63.

Steven: Yeah,soandwhenyouwereheavywhatwasit?

Dave: Ididn'tmeasureitbackthen.

Steven: Yeah,butyoucanstartseeingtheshifts,especiallyearlymorning.Itwilldropdownandoneconcernisdoingtheicewaterearlymorning,like5or6inthemorning,mightbealittledangerousbecausetherearecircadianrhythmsandvulnerabilityforheartattackswhichagainaremisunderstoodbecausesomeoftheheartattacksmaybesuddendeathwhichispotentiallyavagalphenomenonandnotanarrhythmia.

Dave: Wow.Whatcouldwedotoreducetheincidenceofsuddendeathwiththisknowledge?PeoplelisteningarealllikeokaywhatcanIdoformeandsomeofthemhavevagalissuestheydon'tknowabout,othersdon't,buthowdowehackthat?

Steven: Thehackingofthisandactuallyit'sareasonablewordistounderstandwhatarethecuesthatournervoussystemcraves,reallycraves.Ournervoussystemcravescertainfeaturesofsafetyandtheyhappentobeawayfromlowfrequencybackgroundnoisesbecausethattriggerspredator.Weliketohearprosodicvoices.That'swhythe60swerewonderfulintermsoffolkmusicbecausetheyweresocialandpeoplewouldsingsongsaboutthemosthorriblethingsoccurringintheworldandeveryonewouldbesmilingbecauseofthearticulation,theprosodicfeaturesofthevoicebecausewewouldfeelgood.Itwasempowermentofbeingsocial.Thisisdifferentthanmusicthatusesmilitarymarchesandpatrioticactivitieswhicharemobilizingwithaffiliationandtheyareenergetic,butfolkmusicwithoutbasshasthefrequencybandsofafemaleandthattriggersustofeelcomfortableandsafe.


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Acousticpropertiesareextremelyimportantandifyouwanttogobacktotheconceptofschools,schoolstendtobeverynoisybecauseofventilationsystems,highways,andavarietyofotherissues.Wearenotcreatingthecontextualenvironmentthatwillenabletheautonomicnervoussystemtofeelsafeenoughtodownregulatethedefensesystems.Imentiondefensesystems.Oneofthefight/flight,theotheroneisjustshuttingdown.Iwanttoemphasizeonepoint.Sinceyouhadthathistoryofhypoxiathethresholdforyoushuttingdownmighthavebeenlowerforyouthanotherpeopleandsothestrategiesthatyournervoussystemimplicitlytriedtoimplementmayhavebeenstrategiesofmoremobilizationtokeepyououtofthat.

Dave: Itwouldmakesense.NowthisisgoingtobemaybeaninflammatoryquestionandIapologizeinadvancebutwhatarewedoingwithCesareansectionwhenthatbecomesthemostcommonsurgeryperformedonwomen,whichitistoday?

Steven: Ithinkyouprobablyneedtoinvitemywifeonyourshow.MywifeisSueCarterandsheisthescientistwhodiscoveredtherelationshipbetweenoxytocinandsocialbehavior.

Dave: Okay,introduceus,please.Iwouldlovetotalkwithher.

Steven: SheisalsodirectoroftheKinsieInstituteandthat'swhyI'mhereatKinsie,IndianaUniversity.BasicallytheCesareansaredisruptingthenormalbirthprocessandtheissuesarereallyinterms...Notthatthereisn'taplaceforCesareansbuttheissueofhavingthembeinasenseelectiveorvoluntaryorschedulingyourdelivery,itbecomesaseriousquestionabouthowweviewearlydevelopment.AsascientistwhatIhavelearned,andagainit'sacoupledecadessinceIstudiedtheliteratureinthis,wasthatifdeliverywasstarted,iftherewerecontractionsalreadystartingtooccurandtheprocessofdeliverywasstartingthenCesareanwaslessdisruptivetonormaldevelopmentalprocesses.

WhatSueismostinterestedinisnotmerelytheCesareanbuttheuseofsupplementaldrugs,artificialoxytocincalledPitocinthatincreaseduterinecontractilitywithoutsofteningthecervix.Thesearedrugsthat


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arebeingusedandtheconsequenceondevelopmentaren'treallyunderstoodandactuallythat'swhatshestudies.She'sstudyingtheepigeneticeffectsofadministeringoxytocintoananimalmodel.

Dave: Wow,thatwouldbeafascinatinginterview.Myfirstbookwaswrittenwithmywifewho'sacaregiverstrainedphysician,hername'sDr.Lana,anditwasaboutwhatdoyoudobeforeandduringpregnancytohavehealthierkidsandlookingatthequalityofthebirthasafactorintheresilienceandeventheIQofyourkids.There'sstudiesonthatsoit'snotthatyoushouldn'thaveaCesareanit'sthatyoushouldn'tvoluntarilyhaveoneunlessthere'samedicalreasontoit.Ifthereisn'tamedicalreasondon'tdoit.

Steven: Yeah,wellitalldependsonwhatyouroutcomevariablesare.Ifyouroutcomevariableismortalitythenpeoplebuildthereasonableargument.Iftheoutcomevariableisthedevelopmentoftrajectorythenwehavealotofotherissuestodiscuss.Thesesamethingsoccurandthisisevenamoredelicatequestiontodiscussandthatisaboutpre-termbabies,howpre-termissurvivalbecausethey'redoingextraordinarilywellwithverysmallbabiesintermsofcognitivefunctionanddevelopment.They'renotdoingsowellwiththosesamekindsintermsofsocial,emotionalregulation.

Dave: Youthinkthat'salloratleastmostlyvagalnerverelated?

Steven: IthinksobecausewhenImeettheparentsandtheyareoftenprofessionalsandtheystarttellingmethesymptomatologyitsoundsverysimilarly.Auditoryhypersensitivitieswhichispartofthesocialengagementsystem,flatfacialaffectofteningestiveproblemsearlierinlife,difficultycoordinatingsucking,swallowing,andbreathing.Theseareallthepartsthatarelinkedtostimulatingthatmyelinatedvagustosootheandcalmus.It'snotlikethey'reindependentbuttheinformationisoutthere.SinceyourwifeisfromSweden,intheScandinaviancountriestheyhavewonderfuldatabases.Alotoftheseissuescanbestudiedthere.Inthiscountrywedon'thavetheselargenationalregistriessowecan'treallyevaluatewhattheycando.IknowintheUKandinDenmarkIknowtheydothisaswell.


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Dave: It'soneofthebenefitsofhavinganationalregistryofwhat'sgoingon,that'sforsure.Speakingofwhat'sgoingon,we'vegotthingslikePTSD,autism,depression,anxietythatareallatrecordlevelsandyou'vetiedallthesebacktokindofanunknownvariationinthevagalnerve.Whataretheimplicationsofthisforsociety?

Steven: Theimplicationsarethattherearecoredysfunctionsthatresideorgetexpressedinmanytypesofdisordersanditdoesn'tmeanthatdealingwiththosecoredysfunctionswillinasensecurethedisorder.Itmeansthatwecanworkonthemtooptimizethequalityoflife.Virtuallyanytypeofmentaldisorder,anytypeofseverehealthdisordergetsmanifestedindepressedvagalactivitybutitalsogetsmanifestedindepressedregulationofthosestriatemusclesofthefaceandheadbecausethesearebrainstemstructuresandwhat'sontopofthebrainstemisthismassivearrayofneurocircuitsthatgetmanifestedinmanydifferentfunctionsandpathologies.IfwelookatautismoryoulookatschizophreniaandevenifyoulookatHIV,HIVhasaneuraltoxicityonthefacialnerveandactuallytheyhavelowervagaltoneandtheirfacesdon'tworkaswellandthisresultsintheconsequencethatcaregiverstoHIVfeelthattheirpatients,theirlovedonesdon'tlovethembecausetheirfacesarenotexpressiveandtheyfeelexploited.

Thisisthesamethingifyoutalktomanyparentswhohaveautisticchildren.TheysayIlovemychildbutmychilddoesn'tloveme.Whatthey'resayingisthechildisn'taskingaboutthem,notexpressive,notshowingempathybecausethefaceisnotworking.ThesearelowerbrainstemstructuresthatpotentiallycanbeoptimizedthroughprovidingwhatIcallcuesofsafetybuttheycanbeexercisedthroughthingslikesinging,breathcontrol,learninghowtobreathe,playingwindinstruments.Ifwethinkagainwhathappenedtoourschoolsystemsallthesethingswerepulledoutofit,theopportunitiesforsingingandevenplay.PlaybecomesthisreciprocityandonethingIdidn'tdiscussisthatwhenwehavethiswonderfulsocialengagementsystemwithamyelinatedvagusthenoursympatheticnervoussystemdoesgointofight/flightandwecanuseitforplay.

Dave: Wow.


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Steven: Wecanmobilizebutthenwelookatapersonandwesayhey,that'safriendandyoucalmdown.Ifyouplayballoranythingandyouaccidentallyhitsomeone,throwanelbowandtheyfallontheground,ifyouturntopickupthepersontheysayitspartofthegame,I'mfine.Ifyouwalkawaytherepairdidn'toccur,thefacialinteractionwasn'ttheretoturnoffthatsympatheticdefense.

Dave: That'sprettyincrediblestuff.Giventhatthevagalnerveis,atleast3%ofit,issofundamentallyimportanttohumanresiliencewhichisatitscorewhatImeanwhenItalkaboutbulletproof,thesamehighperformance,IcantakewhatevertheworldisgoingtobringtomeandIcanhandleit,dowhatIwanttodo.HowdoIexercisethisasidefromsingingandplayingawindinstrument?CanIrunelectricityoverit?CanIshinelasersonit?

Steven: Igotprepared,yesterdayIlistenedtoyoutalkingtothepersonwhowasdoingTMSandsoyouhavemagnetsathome.Thebeautyofthiscircuitisit'snotdonethatway.

Dave: Darn.

Steven: Becauseyoucantriggeritthatwaybuttomaintainityouhavetomaintainitwithsocialinteraction.

Dave: MoreFacebookthen.

Steven: LessFacebook.

Dave: I'mjustkidding.

Steven: It'sbadenoughofSkypebutyeah,whatourbodyrequiresthepresenceofanother.That'swhoweare,that'swhomammalsare.Eventhoughtalkingonthephoneishelpful,Skypeishelpful;Facebookisprobablyhelpfulit'snotatotalreplacementfortheknowledgethatthatpersonistheretotouchandtocarefor.Againtheprinciplewehavetoalwaysemphasizeisthatweasmammalsdidnotevolvetotakecareofourselves,weevolvedwiththehelpofothersandwecontinuetoneedthehelpofotherstomaintainourlife.Eventhoughculturesaystakecareofyourself,doallthesethings,that'snotreallywhatourbodysays.


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Ourbodysaysfindgoodfriends,haveagoodcommunity,havegoodsupportbecausethat'swhatourbody'sreallyaskingfor.

Dave: Theoldlinewegetbywithalittlehelpfromourfriendsisprettyaccurate.

Steven: True,yeah,yeah.

Dave: Allright,somoresocialengagementisprettyimportant...

Steven: Letmeinterrupt.Socialengagementifyouwantit.ForcedsocialengagementisthreatsotheissueisyouhavetoinviteitandwiththatIwanttochangeterms.Weusewordslikecaregiverimpliesthatit'saunidirectionaleventandcaregiver’sburnoutwhenitisunidirectional.ThatwastheexamplewiththeHIVorwiththeautismbecausecaregivingisbidirectional.Wegiveandweloveitwhenpeoplecanbegoodrecipients.Itcreatesareciprocitythatmakesusfeelgood.

Dave: It'sthatreciprocalloopthatsortofgetssetup.What'stheroleofgratitudeinallofthis?

Steven: Again,we'redealingwithwordsandI'mgoingtoactuallythrowitbacktoyouandIwantyoutotellmewhatyoumeanbygratitude?

Dave: Myunderstandingofgratitudeisthatit'sactuallyafeltstateandit'soneofthemechanismsthatIusetoturnoffwhatIperceiveisthefightorflightresponse.ItmaybeturningoffsomelowerleveldefensemechanismsbutwhenyoulookattheworldasI'mgratefulforallthisamazingstuffinitittendstomakeyousleepbetter,ittendstomakeyouhappier,ittendstomakeyounicer.

Steven: You'reinwhatIwouldcallaventralvagalstateandsothat'sthemyelinatedvagus.IactuallygaveatalkforcompassioncarewhichisagroupoutatStanfordanditwasonbasicallyancientpracticesasportalsofvagalregulation.

Dave: Wow,Ihavetohearthistalk.Isitonvideosomewhere?

Steven: Yeah,it'sonYouTube.


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Dave: Okay,we'llfindthatandwe'lllinktoitintheshoutouts.

Steven: Basicallyitsaysthatthroughchantandprayerandevenpostureshiftswewererecruitingthisvagalsystemandthatwasinasensegivingpeoplestatesofcompassionorastatethatbufferedthemfrombeingdefensive.Letmeputacaponthisbecausewehavetounderstandthattheremovalofthreatisnotthesameassafetyandweliveinasocietythatsayswe'regoingtoremovethreatandyou'regoingtobesafewithoutprovidingwhatourbodyneedswhicharecuesofsafety.Whenyou'reinthisstateofgratitudeyouarebathedinasenseofthecuesofsafety.Whetheryou'regeneratingityourselforyou'reinanenvironmentwithothersandwhenyou'reinthatstateyou'renotrecruitinganyofthesedefenses.You'renotperceivingtheworlddifferently.Youperceivetheworlddifferentlybasedonyourphysiologicalstateandwhenyou'reinastatethatisbeingclearlyprotectedfromdefensebythismyelinatedvagusthenyouwon'trecruitthosedefensesignalsystems.

Dave: Apracticeofrecognizingandcultivatingthesensationofgratitudecantriggertheneurologicalexperiencethatit'sasafeworldwhichthenisgoingtokeepyououtofthesympathetic,thefightorflightandit'salsogoingtoenhancethemyelinationofyourvagusnervemaybe?

Steven: Wellitmightbutmoreimportantthanthatispotentiallyyoumaynotneedtomyelinateanymore.Youjustneedtoenablethatcircuittowork.Theissueishowdoyouoptimizewhatyouhave?Ithinkthat'spartofyourthemesoitdoesn'tmeanyouhavetorewire.Itmeansthatyoumayhavetoturnoffdefense.Themodelofpolyvagaltheoryisit'sahierarchicalmodel,andthisreallytherealtakehomepoint,it'sahierarchicalmodelthatarticulates3differentcircuitsthatoccurredthroughevolution.Oneisthismyelinatedvagusthat'slinkedtooursocialengagementsystem.Thesecondisasympatheticfightorflightsystem,mobilizationsystem,andthethirdisashuttingdownsystem.ThosesystemsthatItalkedaboutfordefensejustnowarenotsolelytherefordefense.Oursympatheticnervoussystemiswhatmakesusfeelgood,energetic.Oursubdiaphragmaticvagusisnotashutdownsystemwhenwe'resafe.Itenablesdigestiontooccurefficiently.Itenablesourbowelstoworkwellandthesymptomofcourseofwhatyou


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knowalreadyisthatallthefeaturesofmodernsocietygetmanifestedinourbowels.

Whatthatissayingitgetsmanifestedinimmobilizationwithfearreaction.Ifwe'reimmobilizedweareconstipated.Ifwe'reimmobilizedwejustdefecateinappropriatelysothenotionofmaintainingtheseendogenousnormalrhythmsistheresponsibilityofthismyelinatedvagusthatenablesotherpartsoftheautonomicnervoussystemtoregulateourhomeostasis.

Dave: Wow,that'ssomepowerfulstuff.I'veseeninthebookOnCombat,whichisafamousbookstudyingfirstrespondersandpeopleinwar,wherepeopleattheWorldTradeCenter,thefirefighters,agoodportionofthemactuallyhadthatproblemofjustdefecationwithoutthatandfelthugeamountsofshamebecauseveryfewpeopleunderstandthiseventhoughit'snotaconsciousthingit'sthisresponse,right?

Steven: Ilinkthattorapevictimswhoalsofeelgreatshamebecauseit'sthesamecircuitthat'sgoingon,thesubdiaphragmaticvagusisimmobilizingthemunderrestraintorrapeandthephysiologicalinterpretationofthatimplicitfeelingendsupbeingshame.

Dave: Wow.

Steven: Okay?

Dave: It'scompletelywired.Ithasnothingtodowithourrationalthinkingatallyetwefeelitandwetrytorationalizeitanditgetsworse.

Steven: Yeah,thisiswhatItalkaboutourbigbraintryingtomakesenseoutofallthisinformation.Wehavetobeinformedbyourbiology.

Dave: I'velearnedalotinthisinterview.ThisisoneofmyfavoriteinterviewseverbutI'mstillstuckonokay,whatdoIdowithallthisamazingknowledge?I'llkeepdoingpranayamaorArtofLivingorsomesortofbreathingexercise.I'mnotsureI'mgoingtopickuptheflutebutwhoknows?Maybe.Icankeepcultivatinggratitude,whataretheotherthings?


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Steven: Icangiveyouonebasicmetaphorandthatistofeelsafeinthearmsofanother.

Dave: Thereyougo.Thatisgreatadvice,okay.

Steven: NowIwouldmodifythattosaytofeelsafeinthearmsofanotherappropriatemammal.

Dave: Notaturtle,gotcha.

Steven: Rightandthereasonisthatsomepeoplereallydon'tfeelsafewithpeoplebuttheyfeelverysafewiththeirdogs.

Dave: Oh,thisexplainsthedogandmaybethecatthing,althoughwhoreallylikescats?I'mjustkidding.

Steven: I'vehad2phases.IwasacatpersoninitiallyandnowI'madogperson.Thedogpartisactuallylinkedtohavingrealchildrenbecauseoftheirneedinessandtheirreciprocity.Theyneedthesocialfeedbackfromyou.Catsareextraordinarilyindependent.

Dave: Veryperceptive.

Steven: Dogs,youchangethetoneofyourvoiceandthey'redownonthegroundbasicallysayingwhyareyouhurtingme?Thepointisthey'reexplainingtoyouintheirbehaviortheirneuroceptionofthevocalizationcuesthatthey'regetting.They'reteachingussomuchandsowhenwecanappreciatetheirvulnerabilityandlovethemandappreciatethevulnerabilityofourchildrenandlovethemandappreciatethevulnerabilityofourspousesandfriendsandlovethemthenwe'resafe.Thenwe'regood.

Dave: Wow,soitgoesrightdowntobeingvulnerableandacceptingvulnerabilityinothers.

Steven: Yeah.

Dave: Wow,that'ssomeprofoundstuff.Now,IsuspectyoumighthaveansweredoneofthesequestionsI'mabouttoask,oroneofthethings


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I'mgoingtoaskyoubutgivenallthestuffyouknow,andthisisaquestionI'veaskedoneveryepisodeofBulletproofRadio,ifsomeonecametoyoutomorrowandyoudidn'tknowanythingabouttheirbackgroundandtheysaidlook,Iwanttoperformbetteratbeingahuman.IwanttokickassateverythingIdecideI'mgoingtodo.Whatarethe3mostimportantthingsIshouldknow?

Steven: Okay,we'lltrysomethingonthis.WhoknowswhatI'mgoingtosay?WellwhatIwouldstartoffbysaying,themostimportantthingwehavetounderstandisthatourautonomicnervoussystemfunctionsinahierarchicalwayandwhatthatmeansisthatsometimeswehavetounderstandhowourbody'sbeenchallengedincertainsituations.WhatIwouldsayiswehavetobecomeveryawareofwhatourbodyisdoing,ourbody'sresponses.Likeyourdescriptionofyourgutrespondinginthatroom,ifyouhadunderstooditfromapolyvagalmodel,fromthehierarchyofourautonomicnervoussystemandyoustartgettingasubdiaphragmaticgutresponseandyoureallywantedtomanageityouwouldthensaymaybemybodyshouldn'tbeinthisroomormaybeIneedtobenearsomeonewhomakesmefeelsafe.Maybemyspouse,maybesomeoneelse.

ThemostimportantthingIguessthewordsIwouldnowuseisyouneedtorespectyourbodymeaningthatyourbodyisreactingtosituationsandyouneedtounderstandthatit'sreactingit.Thisgoesbacktomoreoftheattributesofneuroception.Inneuroceptionwedon'tknowthecuesthatourbodyisrespondingtobutweknowthatourbodyhasrespondedandifwerespectthefactthatourbodyhasrespondedwecandogoodthingsforourbody.Wecanhonorourbody.Wecanmoveittoasaferplacebecauseweknowwhatcuesarenecessarysoweneedittobeaquieterplace,needtobewithsupportivepeople.

Dave: Okay.

Steven: IhavemoreIhavetoanswerorwasthatall?

Dave: Wasthat2orwasthat3?


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Steven: Whoknows?Basicallyit'sgoingtobethisintegrationofunderstandingthehierarchyorourautonomicnervoussystem,realizingthatunderneuroceptionweareawareofourbody'sresponsesbutnotofthecuessoitbecomesmoreofabodyscanningandthethirdonewouldbetokindofhonorourbody'sresponsesandnottoinasensedenigratethemandsayit'snotimportant,I'llgetoverit.

Dave: Gotit,that'sagreatsummary.Wow.IcantellyouIdon'tthinkanyofthoseanswersI'veheardbeforeandthey'reallverywisesothankyouforsharingthat.Iwasexpectingsomethingunusualandyoudefinitelydeliveredit.

Steven: Thankyou.

Dave: Steven,thefatherofpolyvagaltheory,thankyouforbeingontheshow.Wherecanpeoplefindoutmoreabouteitheryourresearchoryourpractice?Isthereawaypeoplewhoareinterestedinlearningmoreaboutthiscanfindyou?

Steven: WellIhaveawebpageandit'sstevenporgess.com.Ithasalistofwheremytalkswillbeanditalsohaspublishedinterviewsandabibliographyandthere'salsogoingtobeawebpageatKinzie.Thereisonenowbutit'snotwelldevelopedwithmymaterialsonit.

Dave: Awesome,wewilllinktobothofthosepagesincludingtheKinzieoneifyou'dlikesopeoplecanjustcometotheshownotesorlookfortheemailwiththispodcast.

Steven: Okay,andactuallythereisquiteafewtalksonYouTubesopeoplemightiftheylikewantmoreofthistheycanfinditonYouTube.

Dave: Isuspectyou'llfindthattherearealotofpeoplewholistentoBulletProofRadiowhoarethinkingwait,thiseitherappliestomeoritappliestosomeoneintheworldveryclosetomesojusthavinganunderstandingofwhatourenvironmentdoestoournervoussystemisaverycorethingtobeingafullyfunctioninghumansoIthinkthatyou'llfindsomepeopleinterestedinyourworkbecauseit'sprettyinterestingstuff.


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Steven: Wellthankyouverymuch,David.

Dave: ThanksforbeinginBulletproofRadioandIlookforwardtomaybemeetingyousomedayinperson.

Steven: Ilookforwardtoit.Thankyou,David.Bye,bye.

Dave: Ilearnedtocookinawaythatmostpeopledon't.Istartedlookingateverysinglemeal,designingandengineeringthemealnottomakemeloseweightorjusttotastereallygood,althoughthosewerepartoftheplan,itwastogivemeafoodhighsothatwhenIwasdoneeatingIwouldjustfeelamazing.Bulletproofispartlytheartabouthowtocookfoodthatmakesyouhavemorepower.It'sabouthavingenergydensefoods,nutrientdensefoodsthatdon'thavethingsinthemthatmakeyouweak.TheBulletproofroadmaptellsyouhowtodothisandBulletproofthecookbooktellsyouhowtomakeittasteamazingsoyoucanlearnhowtodothiscookinginyourownhome.There's125recipesthathelpyoukickmoreasseveryday.You'llfeelthedifferenceinyourbraininyourveryfirstmeal.Gotobulletproofcookbook.comandwe'llgiveyouabigdiscountandfreeshippingrightnow.Headonovertobulletproofcookbook.comtogetallofthisgoodnessandstartdoingittoday.Infact,ifyouhaveagardenI'lleventellyouhowtousethingsstraightoutofthegarden.

Featured Stephenporges.com A selection of Dr. Porges publications Talks by Dr. Porges on Youtube Resources Polyvagal Theory Autonomic nervous system Neuroception Hypoxia Phylogenetics Vagus nerve Heart rate variability


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Vagal tone Apnea Bradycardia Homeostatic functions Nucleus ambiguus Myelination Myelinated vagus nerve Pranayama yoga Cranial nerve 5 Cranial nerve 7 Dr. Sue Carter Dr. Lana Health registry database in Nordic countries HIV’s impact on vagal recognition Ventral vagal state The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education On Combat Neuroception Bulletproof Heart rate variability training HeartMath Institute Bulletproof Road Map Bulletproof Cookbook

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