transcript of va house testimony in reference to hb 1506 by mers general counsel william hultman
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7/28/2019 Transcript of VA House testimony in reference to HB 1506 by MERS General Counsel William Hultman
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3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Can you explain what you are in
4 relation to that?
5 MR. HULTMAN: We're the beneficiary, but we're an
6 agent of the lender. So instead of having two -- one party be
7 both the payee on the note and the beneficiary in deed of
8 trust, we're the beneficiary as their agent. In other words,
9 we're holding title to the mortgage lien on their behalf.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Through this process called
11 nominee?
12 MR. HULTMAN: Well, nominee is just another word for
13 agent.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Okay. So the actual record --
15 MR. HULTMAN: And the mortgage gets recorded or the
16 deed of trust gets recorded so the world is on notice that
17 there is a lien against the property, which is what the purpose
18 of land records are.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Right.
20 MR. HULTMAN: History, even before MERS, it was neve
21 the role of the land records to tell anybody who the owner of
22 the indebtedness was.
23 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I don't disagree.
24 MR. HULTMAN: And -- I'm sorry?
25 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I don't disagree with that.
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1 MR. HULTMAN: Oh, okay. Fair enough.
2 Just in response to something else that I heard you
3 ask the people from the Banker's Association. One of the othe
4 reasons why I think some of the states have not gone down this
5 path about having the certificate of title for the indebtednes
6 is because the federal law already provides a lot of protection
7 for the borrowers. Under RESPA, any borrower is entitled to
8 write a letter to the servicer and the servicer is obligated
9 under federal law in RESPA to give -- disclose the person who
10 holds their note.
11 Also, last year from the federal legislation that got
12 passed in May, and this is the (inaudible) amendment, I forget
13 the name, but the statute, but it amended the Truth and Lending
14 Act and added a section, 404, that requires now that every time
15 the note is transferred, the transferee or the purchaser of the
16 note is required under federal law to give notice to the
17 borrower that they now own the note.
18 So this notion somehow that we have to put another
19 record in the land record, and one of the reasons that MERS
20 exists today is because prior to MERS all these assignments
21 were not getting recorded or they were being done improperly,
22 they would get rejected, and there would be breaks in the chain
23 of title. MERS (inaudible) the title to the mortgage lien in
24 MERS so that from the beginning to the end, the loan, period,
25 is never going to be a break of title because the assignments
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1 were recorded.
2 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Let me ask this question. So as
3 understand it, actually there never is an assignment made ever
4 because you from the beginning are the beneficiary --
5 MR. HULTMAN: That's correct.
6 COMMITTEE MEMBER: So for purposes of recording in
7 our courthouses, there is never an assignment that's ever made
8 The assignment, if there is one, would be a change in the
9 actual underlying promissory note.
10 MR. HULTMAN: And that's where I think some of the
11 confusion comes up with people when they talk about MERS. The
12 use the word assignment and mortgage and mortgage loan and note
13 interchangeably when there are two distinct instruments and --
14 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible) deed of trust and
15 there's a note.
16 MR. HULTMAN: When -- I use mortgage, deed of trust.
17 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible.)
18 MR. HULTMAN: They're interchangeable from our
19 perspective. We're really a holder of the mortgage --
20 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Right, but in Virginia you have
21 deed of trust that deals with the ownership of the property,
22 and then you have a promissory note which is never recorded,
23 which deals with the obligation on the debt.
24 MR. HULTMAN: That's correct.
25 COMMITTEE MEMBER: What you're saying is, is this
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1 language in this bill that talks about assignments really
2 doesn't affect you anyway because --
3 MR. HULTMAN: I think it would cause more confusion
4 than it solves any problems. I mean, a lot of what we see --
5 and frankly, I talk to borrowers everyday. Borrowers call me
6 up. I mean, we heard the story from one of the lawyers here
7 about how these things went in wrong places and did things.
8 Well, people make mistakes.
9 You know, if somebody called me up and asked me,
10 which they didn't, we would have helped them sort out that
11 problem. We would have gone to -- and I do this everyday.
12 Borrowers call us up and they say, I don't know who my
13 noteholder is. Because if they go on our website or if they g
14 into the toll-free number that they can call, we'll tell them
15 the identity of the current servicer and we'll also -- for 97
16 percent of our members who haven't opted out, we'll give them
17 the name of the noteholder, and sometimes I'll even give them
18 the noteholder's name if they have a compelling reason for it
19 even when they --
20 COMMITTEE MEMBER: And their contact information?
21 MR. HULTMAN: Contact in -- yeah. I mean, we'll giv
22 that information up to the people. Now, again, that's a more
23 -- the owner -- we always show who the servicer was. That was
24 our purpose. Now, since all of this activity has gone on,
25 we've been able to convince our members that, for most of them
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1 at least, that we'll be willing to disclose the -- who holds
2 the note on their -- who (inaudible.)
3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Anything else? (Inaudible.)
4 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I have a question. This section
5 404 you were just talking about --
6 MR. HULTMAN: Section 404.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Yeah, section 404, it requires
8 what now?
9 MR. HULTMAN: When the note is transferred or sold,
10 the federal legislation requires a notice be delivered to the
11 borrower from the purchaser or the transferee of the note. So
12 whoever has acquired that note for whatever reason, doesn't
13 actually have to be a sale, but it could be -- as long as
14 they're the subsequent holder of the note or the owner of the
15 loan, they're --
16 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible) company?
17 MR. HULTMAN: Right. They're required to deliver
18 this notice to the borrower, and on it, it says who the owner
19 of the note is. It also tells the borrower who they have to
20 contact to -- if they have questions about the note. So, for
21 example, a bank is using a servicer or a trustee is using a
22 servicer to collect the payments for that, which is what most
23 professional investors do today. So, for example, you know,
24 right now 98 percent of the loans are done by Freddie
25 (inaudible) -- purchased by Freddie (inaudible). And, you
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1 know, they all use professional services because they're not in
2 that business. They're in the business of owning notes and
3 making sure they get distributed to investors world-wide. So
4 they'll tell you who to contact and they'll give specific
5 contact information in that notice to let them know who they
6 need to talk to if they have problems with their loan.
7 COMMITTEE MEMBER: This is just a follow-up. So
8 you're saying that the recordation part here that's in this
9 bill, it wouldn't affect you anyway?
10 MR. HULTMAN: Well, I think it would cause confusion
11 and it would up end up --
12 COMMITTEE MEMBER: So it would be your position that
13 it would not affect you --
14 MR. HULTMAN: Yeah, that's right.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBER: -- because you're on the original
16 (inaudible).
17 MR. HULTMAN: We're on the deed, and the conveyance
18 to us has not changed.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBER: So in other words, where the
20 change is coming is in the promissory notes?
21 MR. HULTMAN: Exactly.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBER: And then what you're doing is
23 you're acting sort of after the -- you're acting as a clearing
24 house for determining -- I mean, that -- but you know that's
25 not very well advertised. I mean, I don't think there are a
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1 lot of people that know --
2 MR. HULTMAN: I would say that there's a lot of --
3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I --
4 MR. HULTMAN: -- misunderstanding about MERS in the
5 press and in the Internet stories about MERS. You go to our
6 website, and maybe our website is not the most user-friendly
7 website, but we're a very transparent company. Everything
8 about MERS is pretty much on our website, and as I said, we
9 disclose who we're acting for.
10 The fact that we're acting as this nominee or agent
11 is disclosed in the instrument. The fact that the instrument
12 and the borrower agrees in the deed of trust that if the
13 investor or servicer so desires, MERS may actually conduct the
14 foreclosure process in the states. And there is no state that
15 has said that we're doing anything in contravention to state
16 law in any of the 50 states so far. There's a lot of noise.
17 And you've heard about cases where they say MERS got
18 kicked out of court. Well, that may be true, but it's not
19 because MERS is not legal or MERS is not within compliance with
20 state law. It's because there was a defect in the process, an
21 the party who is bringing the prosecution had not done all of
22 the paperwork that they needed to be done, and those cases are
23 usually dismissed without prejudice and they can go back and
24 remedy those positions. But a lot of times that gets recorded
25 as MERS got kicked out of court or MERS loses a case.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman --
2 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Any other questions?
3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask
4 question about how I find my mortgage on the website, but I
5 went on their website and I (inaudible) found my mortgage in
6 about ten seconds (inaudible).
7 MR. HULTMAN: Now, I would say this, MERS only has 6
8 percent of the mortgages. There are some people who chose not
9 to use MERS for -- because they don't sell the loan. They buy
10 the loan and they hold the service and they hold the mortgage
11 note or they secure -- so, you know, not everybody will find
12 their mortgage on the system because we don't have a hundred
13 percent of the marketshare.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr. Chair, when was this section
15 --
16 MR. HULTMAN: I think it was May 2009.
17 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Well, what I'm showing is that it
18 was passed December 18, 2010.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBER: It was approved.
20 MR. HULTMAN: Could have been. I may be off.
21 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Yeah. So, I guess, what your
22 position would be based on that is you now have to provide
23 notice to everybody whenever you transfer --
24 MR. HULTMAN: If history shows anything, adding
25 additional requirements to record documents with a county or
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1 clerk will result in more problems, not less problems. It add
2 costs. People will forget to do it, because people are human,
3 and then there's a question about what happens if we don't file
4 it, what impact does it have on the process other than just
5 trying to foreclose.
6 Part of the problem with the statute can also be
7 looked at is it's only requiring the assignments and these
8 transfer notices to be effective if it's only to prosecute the
9 foreclosure. You know, I get a lot of people who call me up
10 and say, I can't find who has -- I want my lien released, and
11 we'll sign the lien release if we're satisfied that the note
12 has been paid off. We can go to the title company and they'll
13 give us the information and we can actually do that on behalf
14 of borrowers. We probably do this a dozen times where we help
15 borrowers release their liens when they're not there.
16 If the statute, you know, it doesn't -- it doesn't -
17 it's not going to change human nature. People are going to
18 make mistakes. Assignments and these transfer notices will no
19 get filed. It will cause further problems for borrowers going
20 forward. (Inaudible) foreclosure process.
21 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman.
22 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible).
23 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Thank you.
24 Sir, you've been here most of the afternoon; have you
25 not?
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1 MR. HULTMAN: I have listened to the whole testimony
2 yes.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: And you heard a lot of the storie
4 where folks are saying they couldn't find out who owned the
5 note or anything like that. Do I understand that if their not
6 were, in fact, being held by your company, that they should
7 have been able to find that out?
8 MR. HULTMAN: If -- first of all, just -- just to be
9 clear, MERS doesn't hold the notes except in the limited sense
10 that if they're foreclosing, our rules require us to have
11 possession of the note to foreclose.
12 But if the note had been registered on MERS, it would
13 certainly have been easier for a borrower to find out who owned
14 this loan, and one of the problems, and I'll be frank with you
15 one of the problems is that, you know, I think that because the
16 investor community have -- they're not servicers and they're
17 not mortgage companies. They're investors. They have
18 delegated the authority to modify loans and make deals with
19 borrowers to their servicer. And there's a lot of confusion
20 with the borrower community about who is the right person to
21 talk to.
22 You can call up the bank in New York if they're the
23 trustee. But that's twelve guys in an office in Washington or
24 New York City or Chicago who have delegated that authority to
25 people who know how to deal with mortgages, which are the
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1 mortgage companies, the servicers who are doing these things.
2 So they can call up -- they can call the investors up, but the
3 investors are just going to tell them they need to go back to
4 the servicer because that's the party that they've empowered to
5 make those --
6 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Who are the servicers?
7 MR. HULTMAN: They're mostly national banks. I mean
8 the five biggest servicers hold probably 80 percent of the
9 servicing in the country today.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBER: So your role is, is if they
11 contact MERS, you're the one who tells them who the servicer i
12 to do their loan modification for a --
13 MR. HULTMAN: Exactly.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBER: -- short sale --
15 MR. HULTMAN: Yes.
16 COMMITTEE MEMBER: -- and in the event that loan
17 modification or short sale does not happen, you are the entity
18 that acts as the agent for the deed of trust beneficiary to
19 foreclose on the deed of trust?
20 MR. HULTMAN: If the investor chooses to do that.
21 Most people today do not foreclose in (inaudible). I think
22 they have decided because of a lot of the adverse publicity and
23 a lot of the noise in the press and just in general and the
24 uncertainty in their minds in the courts, they have chosen to
25 not do that, in which case an assignment of the beneficial
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1 interest would be made and recorded in the land record.
2 So if, for example, if we're serving the land record
3 for Fannie Mae as the investor and Chase is the servicer and
4 they want to foreclose, typically today they will actually
5 assign the beneficial interest probably to Chase, and that
6 assignment must be recorded, and our rules require that it get
7 recorded before the assignment -- before the foreclosure
8 process is started. Because, you know, a lot of times, there
9 have been people who have not done that and done it after the
10 fact and they've been kicked out of court and rightly so.
11 So our rules actually require that if they're going
12 to foreclose in the servicer's name, they need to do the
13 assignment of the beneficial interest out of our -- out of the
14 MERS name.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Any other questions for this
16 witness?
17 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Just one follow-up, if I may?
18 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Go right ahead.
19 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Sir, you -- it sounds like you've
20 appreciated the fact that there is a problem here; is that
21 right?
22 MR. HULTMAN: I get -- like I said, I get dozens of
23 calls every --
24 COMMITTEE MEMBER: My question then is this: What
25 could you tell this panel, I mean, this committee, that would
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1 help us understand -- help these people that have talked about
2 these stories that they've given us this afternoon? What woul
3 you suggest we could do by way of legislation that would help?
4 MR. HULTMAN: I'm not -- I think anything that you
5 can do to help enhance the modification process is probably
6 where the focus ought to be, because that's really what
7 borrowers are looking for. They're calling me up and saying -
8 you know, I think you heard that theme throughout the
9 borrowers.
10 So it's really focusing on the modification process,
11 which means that you have to engage the investor community
12 because ultimately they're the ones who -- and servicers really
13 are limited and the banks are limited when their net capacity.
14 Only when they own the loan do they have the ability to make
15 those modifications, because most of the modifications are --
16 those provisions are already in -- baked into the servicing
17 agreements that they have with the investors.
18 So it's really the focus should be on the investor
19 community, and know that in the federal level that's where a
20 lot of the activity is, trying to figure out programs that wil
21 enhance the ability for people to get modifications, and more
22 importantly, be able to successfully modify.
23 I mean, one of the problems we see today is loans get
24 modified and they're still not able -- still unable to make
25 payments. So I think focusing on the underlying economics and
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1 not the structural procedural things is really where the focus
2 of the legislature ought to be.
3 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman?
4 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I do want to add one thing before
5 we move on to more questions, and that is, I think you're
6 correct. May 2009 is when the legislation went into place tha
7 said that you have to provide notice to the homeowner about any
8 (inaudible).
9 MR. HULTMAN: Thank you.
10 COMMITTEE MEMBER: You were right on that.
11 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible).
12 COMMITTEE MEMBER: I want to build on a question tha
13 Delegate Cleveland -- really, when we heard the testimony from
14 these other folks today, it seemed there were two things. One
15 is connecting the investor and the homeowner, which they would
16 claim is not possible given the lack of information that flows
17 through the system. They don't know who these people are, so
18 they can't get to them. So they can't modify, because they
19 don't know. And by the time they get to them, it's too late.
20 And that gets to the second point of the bill that
21 they're trying to argue for, and that is extended time, to give
22 some more time for them to find the investors.
23 So I guess my question builds on his, and that is,
24 what do you do if -- I'm hearing you say, yeah, we've got to
25 work with the investor community, and I'm hearing proponents o
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1 the bill saying, we can't find them and we don't have enough
2 time to get to them so we can work something out. So what's
3 the answer?
4 MR. HULTMAN: Well, I think -- first of all, I think
5 it's not correct to say that they can't find them. I think
6 sometimes what happens is, is that the investors will tell them
7 you need to deal with the servicer. And -- because I get this
8 conversation with borrowers every week. They'll call me up an
9 say, can you tell me who the investor of my note is. I'll tel
10 them and I'll say, but, you know, they're going to just refer
11 you back to the servicer. And the servicer is the one who
12 really has -- the infrastructure that is prepared to deal with
13 these things.
14 I mean, trustees are a small group of people who are
15 really required to -- and investors, are really -- all they're
16 doing is transmitting the payments from the people who made --
17 who take out these loans to the people who invested in them,
18 who could be doctors in Singapore, for all we know.
19 They've delegated that to the mortgage companies
20 because the mortgage companies admittedly are stressed with the
21 amount of work that they have to do given the extent of the
22 prices here. But they're the ones that have the
23 infrastructure. They're the ones who actually have the loan
24 files. Investors typically do not have the loan files in thei
25 possession. Those loan files are with the servicers who are
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1 collecting the payments every day.
2 So they're really the only party who is into the land
3 record -- or, excuse me, in position to actually understand
4 what the loan is and how -- and what's the payments that the
5 borrower could make given their current circumstances. They
6 know how to judge credit. They know how to do all those
7 things. The investors are not prepared to do that. That's wh
8 they delegated all of this to the servicer community to do all
9 of that work.
10 So, and, again, you know, I don't have -- I'm not
11 really -- I don't really have an opinion on whether 45 days or
12 12 days or 15 days, but there's -- that's not the only part
13 where they have a chance to do things. This is an elongated
14 process. I think somebody testified who said that it takes at
15 least a year, and I think that's probably right. That -- and
16 it's probably longer right now.
17 I think -- we've seen -- and because we're the
18 mortgagee or we're the beneficiary, we get service of process
19 on foreclosures when we're being foreclosed on. So in other
20 words, MERS can also be in a subordinate or junior position or
21 senior position, and if a loan is being foreclosed, we'll get
22 that service of process.
23 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible) second deed of trust
24 --
25 MR. HULTMAN: Exactly.
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1 COMMITTEE MEMBER: (Inaudible) first deed of trust
2 (inaudible) --
3 MR. HULTMAN: And we'll get that notice and we
4 (inaudible) So we see every day how much mail is coming
5 through, and I think the system is strained. I mean, I think
6 we're at capacity how many things we can do, and I think that'
7 causing a lot of problems that you heard today.
8 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Any other questions for this
9 witness?
10 COMMITTEE MEMBER: All right. Does anybody else wan
11 to speak against it?
12 MR. HULTMAN: Thank you.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBER: Thank you.
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