31 - systemic thinking - ocean 1 - teleclass - transcript

7/24/2019 31 - Systemic Thinking - Ocean 1 - Teleclass - Transcript

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Copyright 2010 Madanes-Peysha Publishing

Understanding teen communication Ocean 1

Teleclass Transcript

MP: Mark PeyshaCM: Cloe Madanes

Mia

MP: Great. Okay, welcome to the teleclass. Cloe, you hear me?

CM: Welcome, everybody. I hear you well, yes.

MP: Okay. Today we have a very iteresti! sessio about the "rici"le o# hierarchy.

This a cetral "rici"le to strate!ic itervetio. It is im"ortat i every "art o# social li#e

ad every "art o# itervetio #rom the cou"le to the #amily to the work !rou" ad to theor!ai$atio. %very time that there is a co#lict betwee the "arets ad child or betwee

a su"ervisor or a em"loyee or ay "eo"le where there is a #eeli! that oe is su"erior

ad oe is i#erior, i some way, there are hierarchical dyamics at "lay.

Today we will show you how di##use some o# these co#licts whether you are at the to" o#

the hierarchy or whether you are at the bottom ad I thik that this would be es"eciallyiteresti! to uderstad the #amily ad the work"lace which o#te have very similar

dyamics. We are !oi! to start out with Cloe reca""i! some o# the core "rici"les#rom the homework, #rom about Ocea which is the coce"t to the hierarchical

ico!ruity ad the double bid. The we will move ito a cocrete de#iitio o#hierarchy ad the we will talk about the Ocea #ilm ad how the hierarchical co#usio

betwee Ocea ad her #ather took her i a matter o# weeks #rom bei! a !ood studet

ad a !ood !irl & sel#'described !ood !irl #or someoe who is smoki! "ot, cutti!hersel# ad rui! away. It really ha""eed very (uickly with Ocea. The we will !et

to some very cocrete strate!ies that you ca use to correct ad restore hierarchy i "retty

much ay cote)t. *o Cloe would you like to +olt the start? ick it o## today?

CM: Okay. -es. et me start with a review o# what the double bid theory is. The idea

behid the double bid theory that ori!iated i a "a"er i /011 by the 2ateso !rou"was that they asked themselves i what cote)t would cra$y commuicatio make sese?

That is i what would be the social cote)t i which a "erso talki! cra$y ad behavi!

cra$ily would make sese? What would be a a""ro"riate res"ose to the situatio?

3#ter observi! the iteractio o# may #amilies, #rom ormal to very disturbed #amilies,they came out with the coce"t o# the double bid commuicatio ad basically what

they "ro"osed is that i a situatio where a "erso is receivi! ico!ruous i+uctios &

i+uctio meas that is ot +ust ico!ruous messa!es but ico!ruous orders or

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ico!ruous re(uest & ad the "erso caot leave the #ield. They caot abado the

relatioshi" ad !o away ad the relatioshi" is a itese relatioshi", the i that

cote)t it makes sese to talk cra$y or to act cra$y as the oly "ossible res"ose.

3 e)am"le o# a double bid messa!e would be #or a mother to say to a child, 4Come

ad hu! me,5 ad as he a""roaches her, she shoves him away ad so the child is receivi!two ico!ruous messa!e that come oe verbal ad oe overbal & the verbal bei!,

4Come ad hu! me,5 the overbal "ushi! the child away ad the child, because he is a

child caot leave the #ield, caot se"arate #rom the mother, caot leave the #amily, isde"edet o the #amily.

This was a theory o# schi$o"hreia ad the article was called 6Towards the Theory o#

*chi$o"hreia.6 7owever, the im"licatios o# this theory that was ever "rove ordis"rove, the im"licatios are im"ortat #or the theory o# commuicatio because they

described a commuicatio situatio that very o#te "eo"le #id themselves cau!ht u" i

with their #amily, with their #rieds, at their work. The di##erece is that whe a adult is

cau!ht u" i a situatio like this, usually they ca leave. 3d I say, 8usually9 becausethere are certai situatios like the hos"ital or like "riso or some kids o# schools where

the child is cau!ht i the school, is itesely ivolved may hours i the school which issimilar to a hos"ital or a "riso.

MP: Or the military.

CM: Or the military & e)actly & where the "erso caot leave the #ield ad there#ore

ca easily be cau!ht i cra$y'maki! commuicatios. That is why it is so di##eret to

itervee i a "riso eviromet or a hos"ital eviromet or eve a schooleviromet. *chools are total istitutios i may ways because ty"ically eve i# it is

ot a boardi! school, childre s"ed more time at school tha at home ad the rules o#

the school are se"arate #rom the rules o# society. It is like its ow little coutry.

*o Tobias %rvi Go##ma who was a sociolo!ist also at the same time added the

descri"tio o# total istitutios, as istitutios where you caot leave because eve ithe #amily, you ca take a break. 3 child ca !o to the room or ca !o visit a #ried. I

these total istitutios, you are cau!ht iside them ad you are a "risoer ad you caot

!o aywhere ad the ty"ical e)am"les are "risos ad the military.

To this my cotributio was that I added the coce"t o# hierarchical ico!ruity. That is,

i every or!ai$atio, there is hierarchy. There are some "eo"le that are i a su"erior

"ositio to other "eo"le i the sese that they are su""osed to !uide the "eo"le beeaththem, "rotect them, or!ai$e their time ad their e##ort, !ive them istructios, su"ervise

them. *o i a #amily, those are the "arets; i a com"ay, those are the "eo"le i a

su"erior "ositio i the com"ay & the su"ervisors, the maa!ers, the C%O, the Presidet.

What I "ro"osed is that what ca ha""e i a istitutio is ot oly ico!ruous

commuicatio ad double bids, but that wheever there is ico!ruous commuicatio

ad double situatio, there is a hierarchical ico!ruity i the or!ai$atio. That is, #or

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e)am"le, i a #amily, where the "arets are su""osed to be i char!e o# the childre ad

!uide them ad "rotect them ad su"ervise them ad are res"osible #or them, there are

situatios where eve thou!h that is still ha""ei!, i the sese that the "arets are heldaccoutable #or the childre i terms o# society, yet the childre are domiati! the

"arets throu!h violece, throu!h rui! away, dru! addictio ad other kids o#

disturbi! behavior so at the same time, you have two ico!ruous hierarchy de#ii! the#amily. I oe, the "arets are su"erior to the childre are su""osed to !uide, "rotect

them, su"ervise them ad i the other, the childre are su"erior to the "arets i terms o#

the "ower that they have throu!h their disturbed behavior.

*o the idea is that oe has to #id ways o# itervei! to create a co!ruous hierarchy

where "arets are i char!e o# the childre ad ot the other way aroud. =o9t #or!et

that may "eo"le thik o# hierarchy as domiatio. It is ot +ust domiatio, it is"rotectio. There is a very beevolet as"ect to hierarchy.

I a or!ai$atio that is ot a #amily, a hierarchical ico!ruity ca occur #or e)am"le

whe a e)ecutive, a C%O sides with a em"loyee a!aist a maa!er ad so su""osedlythe maa!er is i char!e o# the em"loyee, but i #act the em"loyee has more "ower over

the maa!er because the em"loyee is i a alliace with the C%O or with the Presidet o#the com"ay ad so these makes "lace #or all kids o# disturbi! ad ico!ruous

commuicatio. 3ll ri!ht, Mark. =o you wat to add somethi! to these?

MP: That is absolutely ri!ht ad so let us talk about how that hierarchy, how that

ico!ruity hierarchy ca create "roblems. et us start u" with, I9d like to de#ie

hierarchy "retty ti!htly because it meas so may thi!s i our culture ad so to be very

s"eci#ic, i hierarchy, we are talki! about two "ositios. We have a to" ad a bottom"ositio ad we are +ust !oi! to use that because it is the easy way to thik o# it.

CM: >i!ht. sually, there are several levels o# hierarchy. @or e)am"le, i a #amily,there are !rad"arets, i a com"ay, there is a chairma but sice the co#licts re"eat

#rom oe level to aother, that is whe you have co#lict at the hi!her levels o# the

com"ay, the same hierarchical co#licts are re#lected at the lower levels o# the com"ayis the same i the #amily. Whe you have co#licts betwee the !rad"arets ad the

"arets, you see co#licts betwee the "arets ad the childre. @or sim"licity9s sake, we

will talk as i# there were oly two levels.

MP: -es, because usually the hierarchical dis"utes are o#te is betwee two "eo"le but i

o# course, as soo as more "eo"le !et ivolved, it becomes more com"le). 2ut #or the

sake o# the "erso at the to" o# the !ive hierarchy betwee two "eo"le is the oe that"rovides !uidace ad "rotectio to the "erso that is below them i the hierarchy ad

the "erso that is below them i the bottom receives !uidace ad "rotectio.

The "rototy"ical e)am"les o# hierarchy is with the "arets ad child, let us say a toddler.

The "aret has more res"osibility. They !uide the child, they kee" them sa#e, they kee"

them #eeli! sa#e ad they !uide them to what they eed. The "aret has a lo! view #or

what the child eeds ad the toddler ca act i ay way, they ca act out, they ca be

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attracted to thi!s that are !ood #or them, they ca eve disres"ect the "aret by hitti!

them but the "arets kow that their +ob is to be calm, to "rotect, to !uide ad the "aret

may eve istall rules #or behavior. They mi!ht & whe the child is older & ask them todo chores or do other thi!s #or the #amily ad so #orth but these rules are clear, sim"le to

#ollow ad cosistet so that is like, let us +ust, I thik crystalli$e a ima!e o# what

hierarchy is ad the e)am"le I thik that is very #amiliar to all o# us.

The same "rici"les a""ly to may di##eret kids o# relatioshi"s so as the "aret o# a

teea!er, the teea!er is ot a toddler, they are !rowi! u", they are worki! at becomi!a adult but you still wat some similar "ractices to be i "lace. -ou wat to make sure

the teea!er is sa#e, #eel sa#e, is !uided towards what they eed to develo" as a adult

ad you eed to have some rules ad cose(ueces that they eed to be very clear ad

sim"le.

I com"aies, hierarchy is di##eret sli!htly because i #amily, usually, there are ot a lot

more tha two or three levels o# hierarchy. There is a "aret, child ad a !rad"aret. I

or!ai$atios, there could be a do$e levels betwee the C%O ad the etry levelem"loyee ad so it ca !et eve more com"licated.

We are !oi! to be drawi! some aalo!ies betwee work hierarchies ad #amily

hierarchies but there is oe very im"ortat distictio betwee the two. It is very

im"ortat to remember that the #ocus o# the cor"oratio or a or!ai$atio is to createcommerce, to serve a cosumer, ri!ht? *o a em"loyee ad a su"ervisor, their

relatioshi" is that they are worki! #or the !ood o# the com"ay ad the !ood o# the

com"ay is to "rovide a service to someoe else.

I a #amily, the #ocus #or the !rou" is to urture each other ad to "roduce !row childre

i# there are childre ivolved. I the #amily hierarchy, the #ocus is o the well brou!ht u"

child ad the #uctio i the #amily uit so i that sese, the com"ay ad the #amily areo""osites because the #amily is about the "eo"le who are ivolved servi! each other ad

themselves. The com"ay is & their #ocus i terms o# their bottom lie is towards servi!

a cosumer who is ot eve there. *o ow, i a hierarchy, there are always twoB

CM: We ca de#ie the "ur"ose o# the #amily as a sel#'hel" !rou" where their "ur"ose is

to heal each other whereas i a com"ay, there is sel#'hel" #uctio that is secodary.

Peo"le will hel" each other i order to "roduce a "roduct or deliver the service.

MP: -es, but the bottom lie, the accoutability is o#te ot to the em"loyees. The

accoutability is to the bottom lie or the share holder or theB

CrosstalkD

CM: To the customer, yeah.

MP: I the hierarchy or ay or!ai$atio, i ay set o# relatioshi"s like this, the

hierarchy there are two levels o# relatioshi". There are the idividual relatioshi"s

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betwee the idividual "eo"le. *o betwee Ocea ad her #ather #or istace, there is a

relatioshi", there is a la!ua!e they use, there are rituals o# meeti! each other9s eeds

as the idividual relatioshi".

I a com"ay, the su"ervisor ad the 4subordiate,5 may have a +oki! relatioshi" that is

#u ad also to thik about their idividual relatioshi". They maybe #rieds.

*ecod level o# relatioshi" is the hierarchical structure. I this case, Ocea9s dad bei!

the #ather has the +ob o# !uidi! ad "rotecti! Ocea ad this has othi! to do withwhether she is meeti! his eeds "ersoally. 7ierarchy is about leadershi", it is about

servi! the !ood o# the !rou". *o o matter what is !oi! o "ersoally betwee the

"eo"le, the +ob o# the "aret or the +ob o# the to" "erso o the hierarchy is to see the bi!

"icture, to uderstad "eo"le9s eeds, to !uide them towards "ositive #uture ad to hel"the #amily as a whole. I busiess, you ca have a disa!reemet betwee two #rieds oe

o# whom is su"erior to the other ad bottom lie; they eed to serve the +ob. The +ob is

what is im"ortat, ri!ht?

CM: -eah.

MP: What this meas o#te is that i# you are a "rovider i the hierarchy, you e)"ect to

receive less "ersoally tha you !ive. *o i #amily li#e, you !ive to your kid more tha

you !et, tha you e)"ect to receive. The "aret o# a toddler is9t !etti! their eeds metall the time, o#te it is bori!, o#te it is all about them. >i!ht? There is a correlatio at

work. 3s a su"ervisor, you may have to !ive more ecoura!emet, more o# the "raise to

your em"loyees tha you e)"ect #rom them. The hierarchy de"eds o you "utti! the

eeds o# the or!ai$atio or the !rou" #irst ad havi! a leadershi" kid o# midset.

CM: -es, similarly the coce"t is that the hi!her you are i the hierarchy at work, the

harder you have to work.

MP: -es ad the more res"od & your work is your res"osibility. -eah, ad the more

res"osibility also traslates to "eo"le havi! to do what you say because you areres"osible #or their well'bei!s. -ou are i char!e o# the ecoomics o# their uit #or

istace.

Whe a hierarchy is imbalaced, the "rovider "rovides "rotectio ad !uidace ad thereceiver #eels "rotected, acce"ts !uidace ad does their "art #or the !rou". sually i# it

is ay !ood, i# it is ay "rime kid o# situatio with the hierarchy, there are clear "olicies

i "lace which outlie what "eo"le should do, what the cose(ueces or behaviors arewhether it be "ositive or e!ative ad the cose(ueces o# the behavior are measured so

i# you make a small error at work, it does9t mea you ca be #ired o the s"ot. I# you are

a teea!er ad you !et a bad !rade o a (ui$, you do9t !et throw out o# the house orset to boardi! school. Thi!s are hal# the "ro"ortio.

I ay hierarchy, there are always a lot o# small ad+ustmets bei! made, but i a

hierarchy that is #uctioi! very well, there is very little eed #or e#orcemet or

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harshess, or #or !ivi! lessos. I a !ood hierarchy there is a side e##ect o# #eeli!

res"ected ad #eeli! si!i#icat ad coected. Those are side e##ects because those are

like emotioal bee#its that you !et #rom a hierarchy that is worki! very well but it isot & the hierarchy e)ists whether or ot you !et the bee#its. =oes that make sese

Cloe?

CM: -es ad oe thi! I wated to add there (uickly is that o# course somethi! that

totally disturbs the hierarchy i ay or!ai$atio is the threat o# e)"ulsio ad the threat

o# leavi!. I a marria!e, the "erso that threates to leave the marria!e immediately!ais tremedous "ower because it is the threat that is destroyi! the marria!e. I a

com"ay, the "erso that threates to leave the com"ay immediately has "ower #rom

that threat. Wheever there is a threat like that, there is a hierarchical "roblem.

MP: -e", that is basically a e!ative way o# !etti! because the hierarchy cosists i the

service o# the uit so whe someoe starts either udermii! the uit or leavi! the uit,

the that is the way that they !et, you kow, i the short term, they !et "ower ad

basically, it is at the e)"ese o# the uit. =oes that make sese?

CM: -es.

MP: Getti! to the Ocea #ilm, Ocea tells stories i that o# what ha""eed i a matter

o# weeks that totally disru"ts her relatio with her the #amily, a letter to a series o#reckless behaviors ad i# you liste to what she says at the ed o# the #ilm, she is very

elo(uet actually which she is talki! about, how she #elt a#ter all the co#licts with her

"arets. *he said, 4I was9t !ood with aybody. I was com"letely lost; I do9t where I9m

at. I# I am bad, the maybe that is who I am. Other "eo"le i my #amily were bad be#oreme so maybe that9s me, too. 3m I su""osed to be the !ood studet? 3m I su""osed to be

the stoer kid? Who am I su""osed to be? Which o# these thi!s are you? I do9t kow

who I am or how am I su""osed to !o or be here live or act. I was com"letely lost.5

I (uote this because es"ecially with teea!ers, because teea!ers are cute ad they have

attitude ad they are worki! duri! a "hase o# li#e that it is so much about their valuesad idividual. With teea!ers, the umber oe thi! you wat to remember with ay

teea!er ad it is o#te ot visible to the aked eye is that the roles ad "ositios ad

idetities they occu"y are e)tremely mobile. *o they ca be switched more (uickly tha

we remember as adults. 3 kid ca have a idetity, a "ositio or role as a !ood !irl or a!ood !irl ad the some e)"erieces where they #eel like they are bei! !ive a

com"letely di##eret idetity, you kow bei! the bad boy or the bad !irl or the dru!

abuser or the ruaway or the cutter ad they are very sesitive to hierarchy. The caswitch ad suddely thik that they are su""osed to be this di##eret kid o# "erso.

CM: 3d they take o the idetity. It is like they are cosummate actors that believe ithe "art they are "layi!.

MP: -eah, or almost like hy"otic IaudibleDFF:


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o# the "arets ad havi! these thi!s #uctioal i a !ood way. *o #or Ocea, it +ust

took a series o# evets over a cou"le o# week to !o #rom a !ood !irl to bei! a totally bad

!irl. The way she eve talks about it is she basically says, 43m I su""osed to beB5 youkow ad that is kid o# a waste thi! with the other "eo"le are key i to #idi! her

idetity ad her role. @or teea!ers, that is a real e)"eriece. They are still tryi! to

decide who they are i a way that adults kid o# rarely remember how mobile, howsli""ery it ca be.

3d so whe the oly tees wati! to talk "riorities is to maa!e the role ad the"ositio ad the idetity that they #id themselves that i bei! i char!e o# them, i

bei! above them i the hierarchy makes use a adult oe o# the "rimary sources o# the

decisio they have whether you #eel that ha""ei! or ot. *o today, we are !oi! to !o

to a ew dyamic, how it works #or tees ad how it ha""es whe it starts breaki!dow.

Cloe, we9ve talked about some o# the e)"erieces i co#lict that led to Ocea #eeli! so

lost ad co#used ad what ha""es is that whe "eo"le do9t uderstad hierarchy so #oristace, Ocea9s "arets i this case, they co#use how hierarchy works ad they try to

correct the hierarchy i ways that do9t work ad usually back #ire ad escalate.

We have #ive basic thi!s that you wat to look out #or i ay hierarchy. We have bee

talki! about teea!ers but these are #ive sta!es o# escalatio that ha""e. They caha""e betwee the teea!er ad the "aret. They ca ha""e betwee a su"ervisor ad

a em"loyee very easily.

*o the #irst oe is whe the to" "erso i the hierarchy "uts their "ersoal eeds abovethe #uctio o# the or!ai$atio. *o the e)am"le #or the #ilm was whe the #ather wet

ito Ocea9s room ad ar!ued with her #or a hour about how she did9t a""reciate him

ad his wi#e.

CM: Oh, o, he ar!ued util oe i the mori!. That is e)treme.

MP: -es, that is e)treme. How i# you have a teea!er or you kow a teea!er, you eed

to uderstad that they are !oi! throu!h a "rocess o# di##eretiatio where they are

"re"ari! themselves #or adulthood whe seei! themselves is di##eret #rom you. *o

they will also see your #laws, your mistakes, your icosistecy, they mi!ht "oit themout #or the #irst time i their li#e. @or the #irst time sice they were a child, they ca

actually see those thi!s ad they will o#te "re#er the com"ay or their teea!er #rieds

to the com"ay o# their #amily so it is a tou!h "hase to !o throu!h but i this case the#ather was taki! it all "ersoally ad soB

CM: 7e was !ivi! "riority to bei! a""reciated by Ocea ad whe it was the mometwhe he should have "ut the #uctioality o# the #amily #irst ad he is cocered about

Ocea9s sa#ety ad her well'bei! should have bee #irst. 3ll that cocers stemmed

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you ad all that I9ve sacri#iced #or you ad you do9t love me ad you treat me badly,5 it

does9t eed to escalate to that. I# you take a #ew miutes to uderstad what was the

child9s cocer, why were they behavi! the way they were doi!, what they werethiki! is the same as i a or!ai$atio, i a com"ay. The su"ervisor #ocuses the

coversatio with the em"loyee o you do9t really like me, you do9t really care about

me, you do9t love me. Istead o# #ocusi! o what is it that you were tryi! to do?What is the task at had?

MP: -es, ad so that is a e)am"le o# a ico!ruous hierarchy ad basically the"ersoal dimesio o# the relatioshi" !ets co#used with the hierarchical dimesio o#

the relatioshi". *o you are the boss i the com"ay, you have the su"ervisor, they re"ort

to you ad you are com"laii! that they do9t like you eou!h. Well, those are two

di##eret & i# you are i a #ormal meeti! with the "erso, ad you are i a workrelatioshi" ad you are talki! about "ro+ects, there is o "lace #or you to be talki!

about whether the "erso likes you because there are two di##eret dimesios. It is

better ot to !et those co#used. *o i the same case, the #ather is reacti! emotioally to

this relatioshi" with his dau!hter i a emotioal level, "ersoal level ad i that & adwhile co#usi!, his hierarchical relatioshi" with her.

2asically, you ca see & you kow with "arets, the "arets o#te #eel with teea!ers, you

kow how much I sacri#iced, how much I did #or you, how may times I9ve "ut you #irst,

I9m "ayi! all these moey #or you to be able to a##ord all these thi!s, all these"rivile!es that you have ad yet duh, duh, duh ad you kow #eel ua""reciated. *ome

o# that may actually be true. -ou did sacri#ice but it is...

CM: That is ot what it is about. -ou sacri#iced because you wated to.

MP: That is ri!ht. *o the correctio to this midset or this mistake, "utti! the "ersoal

eeds #irst, is to !etti! the +ob doe, #ocus o sa#ety ad #ocus o tasks. There eeds tobe a #uture orietatio o what "eo"le eed to !et doe. I this case, it would have bee

so how ca we !et Ocea havi! a !ood e)"eriece, how ca we !et her to school the

e)t day, how ca we move #orward? =oes that make sese?

CM: %)actly.

MP: Okay. *o the secod "oit o# escalatio here is the 8demostrati! the ability toe#orce.9 *ometimes, it is ot a dys#uctio o# hierarchy is whe the "erso who is o

to" #eels like their "ower, their ackowled!met, their love or res"osibility has ot bee

ackowled!ed by the "eo"le below them ad so they start sayi!, 47ey, you do9t9res"ect me. -ou do9t kow what I am ca"able o#. %verythi! that you e+oyB5

CM: The word is whe the "erso o to" #lauts "ower, shows u" the "ower that theyhave. It !ets o your #ace telli! you how "ower#ul they are.

MP: That is ri!ht. I was talki! to a studet &we9ll talk about this later but the other day,

I was talki! to a studet who was !oi! to "er#ormace review at work ad he had a

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su"ervisor who is very de#esive ad is kid o# harsh i her assessmets. 3 "er#ormace

ad that is a e)am"le whe someoe is tryi! to demostrate their ability to e#orce or a

!ood e)am"le would be the co". The "olice o##icer ad you are disres"ect#ul to them adthe they #eel like they wat to show that they are i char!e, that they have abilities but

that is #lauti! "ower leads to, has two ma+or e!ative e##ects.

Oe is that i# you are #lauti! your "ower the you are discoecti! it #rom +ustice ad

#airess. *o i# you are #lauti! your "ower +ust to show or remid someoe that you are

hi!her to them, you are taki! a domiati! attitude ad domiatio does ot e(ual#airess ad +ustice. @airess ad +ustice isB

CM: 3d also that doest ue(ual e##ectiveess at all because you wat the "erso i the

bottom to be able to take iitiative ot to wait to be domiated to kow what to do.

MP: That is ri!ht. Whe the "erso o to" #laut their "ower, the it is always easy #or

the "erso o the bottom to #laut their "ower because all they have to do is be

dys#uctioal or leave the uit or mess thi!s u".

CM: Or be "assive'a!!ressive ad you see this so much i com"aies where there areem"loyees that stay o ad they work eou!h so that they ca9t really be #ired but they

are really ot doi! aythi! +ust bei! "assive'a!!ressive.

MP: -e", e)actly.

CM: 3d the e)treme o# this i a #amily is whe a teea!er becomes oe o# those you!

"eo"le who is totally disiterested i aythi!. They do9t care aymore. *o they areot iterested i music, they do9t care about school, they do9t have ay hobbies, they

do9t like s"orts. They +ust sit there because ultimately that is the !reatest source o#

"ower, to have o desire, to wat othi!. *o the res"ose to "arets who #laut "ower isI do9t care, I do9t wat aythi! ad that makes it very di##icult to e)ercise "ower by

the "eo"le o to".

MP: -eah, oe o# the #lauti! o# "ower is whe you take away thi!s #rom "eo"le that

they thou!ht were theirs. >i!ht? *o i teea!ers #or istace, oh, you thou!ht I9m taki!

away your "hoe, I9m taki! away your weekeds, I9m taki! away your com"uter, I9m

taki! away these collectios.

CM: %)actly. That is a way o# #lauti! "ower ad aother way is sayi!, I ca do

aythi! that I wat, I9ll #ire you, I9ll demote you. I9ll cut your salary.

MP: Okay, so the third ste" o# escalatio is character assassiatio. *o this is where it

becomes very "ersoal. I the e)am"le o# the Ocea #ilm, whe the "arets accused hero# ot cari!, o# bei! & they had9t bee kid o# se)ual & what did they say Cloe? I9m

tryi! to remember e)actly. It was likeB

CM: -ou are a lesbia. -ou do9t eve kiss or hu! your little brother. -ou are sel#ish.

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3d o# course, let me say that all these came #rom !ood itetios ad that o the e)t

module you are !oi! to meet Ocea9s "arets who are !ood "eo"le ad they totally

came #rom bei! well'itetioed. They wated to be !ood "arets but this is whatha""es whe the hierarchy !ets out o# had ad the commuicatio is co#used ad

ico!ruous.

MP: -es. %)actly. O#te this ha""es, character assassiatio, whe you (uestio the

"erso9s itet or accuse them o# havi! bad itet or youB

CM: Or call them ames like i Ocea9s case. -ou are a lesbia. That totally sur"rised

her because she had always "reseted hersel# as heterose)ual ad she had othi! a!aist

lesbias but it "u$$led her hu!ely that the "arets did9t eve uderstad her se)ual

idetity.

MP: -es. What this creates i the other "erso is #irst o# all, it creates i times o#

co#usio because the basis o# the relatioshi" is that the "erso uderstads your !ood

itet. *o i# you attack the "erso9s itet or you attack their idetity, the it makes youthik like what? What kid o# relatioshi" did we ever have? 7ow come you do9t

uderstad me at all? -ou do9t kow what I am at. -ou kow me ot at all. *o itcreates co#usio, alieatio ad it ca also create retaliatio. Or you say, 4-ou are !oi!

to isult me or I9ll +ust isult you back?5 The way to correct this is to attribute !ood

itetios.

CM: 3lways attribute !ood itetios. I the case o# a #amily, it would have bee very

di##eret #rom Ocea i# the "arets have said, 6We kow that we love us ad eve thou!h

sometimes we do9t seem to e)"ress it or we do9t seem to !et it, we kow bottom liethat you care so much about us.6 I a com"ay, the assassiatio would be somethi!

like sayi! to the em"loyee, 4-ou !ot sick o "ur"ose ad you did9t come to work whe

you kew we were o the deadlie. There is a sayi!, 4Gee, I kow how much youwould have wated to show u". -ou must have bee really sick.5

MP: That is ri!ht. It is im"ortat at ay "oit, i ay o# these & oe o# the correctives toay o# these "roblems is to declare your itetio adB

CrosstalkD

CM: 3d attribute !ood itetios to the other "erso.

MP: 3d the #ocus o the "ur"ose so you do9t !et side tracked i their "ersoalitercha!e. -ou +ust thik, 4I9m sure that you are tryi! hard ad I kow that you have

doe these other thi!s well. I am tryi! hard ad we both have these commo "ur"ose.6

Great. *o the #ourth oe is, the #ourth level o# escalatio here is the threat o#

abadomet or e)"ulsio.

CM: Or e)ile.

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MP: Or e)ile. -eah, ad so i this case, it was the #ather who was sayi!, 4-ou do9t

care about the #amily, you do9t care about your brother ad the threat here is that youdo9t really belo! i this #amily ad so this is what the "erso o to" basically starts to

s"eak #or the etire !rou" i accusi! the "erso o the bottom i the co#lict. *o it

did9t really make sese #or the #ather to s"eak #or a ei!htee'moth'old brother, youkow Ocea9s little brother. 7e was kicki! Ocea out. 3lso i this case, he was whe

the #ather said, 6Maybe you should !o ad live with your #rieds,6 or starts su!!esti!

that maybe she did9t really belo! i the household.

CM: -es.

MP: *o, i a com"ay this could ha""e whe someoe says you kow maybe you do9tbelo! here, threatei! with #iri!, telli! the "erso that they do9t belo! i that

com"ay culture, that there is o room #or "eo"le like that. That kid o# thi!.

CM: 7ere the stro!est double bid ha""eed i terms o# Ocea because the #ather ke"tsayi! how much he loves her ad wated to "rotect her ad that is why he had all these

rules ad so o ad at the same time was aski! her whether she wated to live withaother #amily.

MP: -es, ad so that is what really !ot her ad there is a costat secodary & there aretwo com"letely o""osite messa!es. The way to recover #rom this level o# escalatio as a

threat o# abadomet or e)ile is to attribute !ood itetio a!ai. 3t this "oit, the

"erso o to" i the hierarchy eeds to ackowled!e their ow mistakes so i# you let

thi!s escalate to this "oit, you eed to say, 6I9m sorry but I lost my tem"er, you kowthis is a touchy sub+ect #or me but it is oly because I care so much ad I kow that you

are a !ood "erso ad I really wat you to be ha""y ad I wat us to be able to succeed i

this veture that we are !oi! to!ether.6 *o they wat that.

CM: This is the time to say, 4This is a collaboratio. We9re team "layers. We9re

to!ether i this. et us work to!ether.5

MP: -es. The other thi! that really !ot Ocea i this #ilm, that really co#used her

e)tremely was aother move by the #ather to try to recocile ad it is whe she woke u"

i the mori! ad took a shower ad whe she came back a#ter they had bee #i!hti!ad they had all these co#licts, her bed had bee made, they are maki! her break#ast,

they le#t her a ote sayi!, 4=o9t worry. We love you.5 The (uestio is betwee how

you recocile whether it is a im"licit or a e)"licit recociliatio. O#te whe we havea co#lict with someoe, it seems sim"ler or smoother or more s"otaeous to recocile

i a im"licit way throu!h a !esture by !ivi! them somethi!, showi! that everythi!

is okay i a overbal way.

CM: 2ut that is ot !ood. This re(uires a"olo!ies, e!otiatio ad a e)"licit

recociliatio.

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MP: -eah. What is really im"ortat o this case i# you are i the to" o# the hierarchy is

to hold yoursel# accoutable #or the details so because at the to" i the hierarchy, "art o#

your +ob is maki! sure that thi!s are #air ad +ust ad showi! the di##erece betweeri!ht ad wro!. *o at this "oit you would wat the #ather to talk about all the ste"s.

2asically a"olo!i$e #or the thi!s that were mistakes, s"eci#ic thi!s. 4I9m sorry #or

calli! you this. Im sorry #or threatei! this. I9m sorry #or o##eri! you to live withsomeoe that was9t really a "ossibility,5 ad you kid o# have to !o item by item to

a"olo!i$e o those thi!s. That kid o# clears the co#usio because you !o by each item

that was co#usi!, that was disturbi! the hierarchy ad you settle them all "iece by"iece. I# you do9t do this kid o# e)"licitly, the it ca #eel like a hushed, like a bribe or

like you are bei! "aid o## to be (uiet ad move o.

CM: -eah, this remids me o# the e)am"le o# the trader. I thik that all o# you heard mystory. The "arters that were !oi! to dissolve the "artershi" because oe o# them who

was Italia isulted the em"loyees costatly ad the other two "arters were worried

about this causi! a scadal, the lawsuits ad so o. -ou remember that I rode i the car

with him ad talked to him about it ad talked him to cha!e but oe o# the thi!s that hewas doi! that I really had ot e)"laied be#ore was that he would isult them horribly &

the em"loyees & ad the he would !ive them hu!e bouses. There was ever a a"olo!y#or the isults, +ust a bous would ha""e. *o the em"loyees #elt like "rostitutes that

were bei! "aid #or acce"ti! to be isulted. The im"licit recociliatio ca be "ai#ul,

co#usi! ad demeai!.

MP: -es, ad o#te it ca be aother level o# escalatio where "eo"le take the isult at

aother level. @or istace with Ocea, i the Ocea #ilm, the day a#ter this co#lict

whe she was so co#used ad cryi! ito the i!ht ad the she wakes u" ad they arebei! cheery ad her #ather drives her to school ad the whole time she is woderi! how

am I !oi! to !et by without !etti! this & you kow they have this traditio o# her !ivi!

him a kiss o the cheek be#ore leavi! #or school. *he was thiki! hersel# the wholetime, 47ow ca I avoid doi! that because I ca9t do it. It9s #ake.5 %ve thou!h i her

etire li#e, she had s"et, wheever she wet to school, she always !ives him a kiss o

the cheek ad so she was !oi! to this co#lict ad he says !ive me some su!ar ad #orher, her words were, 4It +ust killed me,5 ad she cried.

*o it9s kid o# like o those thi!s where it is ot a ackowled!emet o# the wro!s that

has bee doe, it is ot a ackowled!met o# the way that the violatio & the hierarchyhas bee violated or iter#ered with ad so it is im"ortat to lay those items to rest "iece

by "iece. I# you try to do a im"licit recociliatio to certai levels o# co#lict the they

will #eel like you are +ust tryi! to avoid accoutability, you are tryi! to avoid "ersoalverbal accoutability which is due i a #orm o# a a"olo!y. *o Cloe, maybe we9ll talk

about some strate!ies ow o how you ca re"air the hierarchy i di##eret situatios?

CM: >i!ht. -ou ca re"air the hierarchy #rom the bottom u" or #rom the to" dow.

MP: -es. There is oe e)am"le that like I said, +ust the other day, I was talki! to a

studet who was !oi! i work "er#ormace review ad the su"ervisor was a woma.

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*he was very harsh o him. *he had bee "leased by some o# his works i the "ast but

she had !ive him very low marks i terms that the umbers were9t so bad but the

commets were (uite critical ad it was very im"ortat to him that these be !ood becausehe was i the "ossibility o# havi! a trasitio +ob because o# the locatioshi". *o havi!

bad marks o there would have bee the real "roblem. We9re talki! about what he could

do ad he was thiki! about !oi! over them with her ad basically "utti! out that theywere9t #air or that they were9t accurate ad what the would ha""e is that the

su"ervisor is bei! uduly harsh ad i this case, she had her +ob, her role. 7er +ob was

to actually su"ervise him ad she was com"letely withi ri!hts to evaluate him as sheeeded to.

The what you eed to do is you eed to res"ect the hierarchy ad actually correct it ad

so istead o# (uestioi! or dis"uti! ay o# these marks, we decided that the !oal was to"rom"t her to cha!e the marks ad actually make them milder. @irst o# all, to have a

decet coversatio ad to have her wat to cha!e the marks i the way that she is

!radi! him. The way we did it i this case, the su!!estio was that i# he !oes ito that

relatioshi", ito that meeti! where he was su""osed to be criti(ued ad he has hi!herstadards #or himsel# ad he was very articulate ad solutio'#ocused o the way that he

would evaluate himsel#. 7e was very clear ad tras"aret about the thi!s that he &"arts that were weakesses i his "er#ormace ad #ocus o how he ca make them better

the that would alleviate a lot o# "ressure #rom her. *he would9t #eel this eed that she

was havi! to "uish him or that she was tryi! to show who is boss. *o he wet i themwith that ad i #act, she eded u" correcti! his evaluatios ad !ivi! him hi!her,

better commet tha she had doe be#ore.

*o that is oe way o# worki! #rom the bottom u", correcti! a hierarchy #rom thebottom u" is #or the "erso, i# you are i the bottom o# the hierarchy, is to raise your ow

stadards, raise your stadards #or your ow behavior hi!her tha the oes that you are

bei! evaluated #or so it is oe o# those thi!s my stadards are hi!her tha thosestadards ayoe else holds #or me or that "uts you i a leadershi" "ositio but it also

corrects the hierarchy. Cloe, you have some !reat e)am"le also.

CM: Okay. I have a #ew e)am"les here correcti! the hierarchy #rom the to" dow. -ou

ca do that o# course directly or idirectly. =irectly, you have the "arets a!ree with each

other o what are the rules ad e)"ectatios o# the childre, how love will be show i

the #amily ad so o so that you have a stro!er to" o# the hierarchy because the "aretsare ot divided. *ometimes you ca iclude other #amily members i that ad have

ucles ad auts ad !rad"arets a!ree.

I a com"ay, it is the same. The worst thi! that ca ha""e is whe there is a

disa!reemet betwee the chairma ad the "residet, or betwee the "residet ad the

C%O, or betwee the C%O ad the directors o# the various de"artmets. *o whe you !eteverybody at the to" i a!reemet the the hierarchy is corrected. What you have to & i#

you are acti! as a cosultat to a or!ai$atio or i# you are "art o# the or!ai$atio,

you have to value a!reemet more tha you value ay s"eci#ic resolve or ay s"eci#ic

decisio.

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MP: %)actly.

CM: =id you wat to sayB?

MP: 3d sometimes as you said, es"ecially i# there is a ico!ruous i hierarchy or aor!ai$atio where someoe i the e)ecutive level has a alliace with someoe #urther

dow below the maa!emet.

CM: That is ri!ht.

MP: *o you wat to make sure that the e)ecutives are i a alliace with each other #irst.

CM: %)actly. 3other, a idirect way #rom the to" dow is a e)am"le that some o#

you mi!ht have heard but I am !oi! to & I do9t remember so I9m !oi! to re"eat it. the

idea is that you have the "arets o# the teea!er let us say, tell them that they have a!reed

with each other that they oly have three e)"ectatios o# the teea!er. Oly three thi!sthat a teea!er has to do #or them to be totally ha""y "arets. The e)"ectatios could be

#or e)am"le, !et u" i time to !o to school. Come home be#ore ei!ht at i!ht. =o9t hityour little brother. *o i# you do these three thi!s, we9ll be totally ha""y. We do9t

e)"ect aythi! more o# you. Ty"ically the teea!er will res"od by sayi!, 4That is the

oly thi!s that you e)"ect are oly three thi!s? I have hi!her e)"ectatios #or mysel#.5I# they do9t res"od e)"licitly like that, they are so relieved by the idea that the "arets

have oly three e)"ectatios that they become #ree to "ursue other iterests ad

cotribute to themselves ad to their #amily i other ways. This is a very !ood strate!y

#rom the to" dow with em"loyees also. I# you make a very sim"le list o# these are threeim"ortat thi!s that we really e)"ect o# you othi! more. Ty"ically, the em"loyee will

res"od that I have oe thi! to cotribute more tha that, oe thi! to ot have such

sim"le istructios. =oes that make sese?

MP: 3lso because so much o# hierarchy has to do with bei! cosistet ad bei! clear

i your e)"ectatios. Whe you sim"li#y your e)"ectatios ad make them e)tremelyclear like this, this teds to restore the hierarchy because you are ot chasi! someoe

dow with a buch o# co#usi!, im"ulsive e)"ectatios #rom them, istead you are

maki! the "olicy very clear.

CM: >i!ht. 3other e)am"le o# correcti! the hierarchy #rom the bottom u" which is a

idirect e)am"le. The e)am"le that Mark !ave o# the em"loyee that was !etti! !rades

by the su"ervisor. 7e was cocered about that. It was #rom the bottom u" also but wasmore direct. This is a idirect way that I also talked about be#ore ad some o# you

mi!ht remember my mother'i'law whe I #irst !ot married, my mother'i'law was

comi! to my house whe I was9t there. I was a studet. *o whe I was at theuiversity, she would come to my house ad clea my closet ad reor!ai$e my closet. It

was so itrusive eve thou!h I kew she had !ood itetios. It was such a hierarchical

move to show that I am like the teea!e child ad she is the su"erior "aret that has the

ri!ht to !et ito my thi!s ad clea my closet. 3d I did9t wat to have a co#rotatio

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with her so what I did was I be!a to call her. Whe are you !oi! to come ad clea my

close a!ai? I really would like you to come. Come you "lease come today? I would

really a""reciate that. 3d she would say, ot today, I ca9t. The I would call her a #ewdays later. -ou did9t call me. -ou did9t clea my closet. 3re you comi!? *he ever

cleaed a!ai. That is, idirect way is to re(uire that the itrusiveess ad the

domiatio.

MP: I that case, the messa!e that she was !ivi! you is that you were like a you!er

"erso o# the #amily.

CM: >i!ht. I was still a teea!er that did9t kow how to clea her closet.

MP: 3d so, as a teea!er, you had the ri!ht to demad more hel" #rom your "arets.

CM: >i!ht. lau!hterD

MP: Could you "lease hel" me with that?

CM: -es. Well, I was very you! to tell you the truth, I was almost the teea!er but Iwas actually thiki! o# mysel# as very adult ad thou!ht this was totally itrusive. 3ll

ri!ht.

MP: -ou did9t have to say aythi!, ad so the other oe, the other reversal that you

talked about was i #amilies will sometimes "ut the childre i char!e o# the "arets.

CrosstalkD

CM: >i!ht. *o I was sayi! whe you have, you kow these "arets that are

domieeri! but i very icom"etet ways, so what I will say to the #amily is that the"arets have #or!otte how to be ha""y so I would like #or the childre to be i char!e o#

the "arets9 ha""iess ad I would discuss with the childre what the childre ca do to

show the "arets how to be ha""y. It is so iteresti!. I have doe it with childre asyou! as #ive years old ad as old as twety'somethi! ad the childre always come u"

with all kids o# ideas, the thi!s that the "aret should do. @or e)am"le, we9ll take care

o# each other ad you ca !o out o a date. -ou have to !o see a movie. -ou have to call

old #rieds ad we9ll have a "arty #or you, we9ll make dier #or you ad serve it ad"lay old "eo"le9s music #or you, stu##s like that. Ievitably it is so movi!, the thi!s that

the childre say ad do to hel" "arets to recover the ha""iess that they oce had or the

ability to be +oy#ul that they had whe they were you!er that it moves the "arets tocha!e.

I a or!ai$atio like a busiess, you ca accom"lish this by letti! the em"loyees #ore)am"le or!ai$e "arties so that you "ut the em"loyees i char!e o# the & Mark you said

it so well & i char!e o# the culture o# the com"ay. The hi!her echelos o# the com"ay

are ivited to the "arty but the "arties are totally or!ai$ed by the em"loyees so the

em"loyees are creati! the cote)t, the mood, the culture, the ha""y as"ects o# the

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16/21


com"ay.

MP: *ometimes, it souds like this is a way to !ive the "erso those at the bottom o# thehierarchy somethi! to be i char!e o#. *o you !ive them somethi! that they ca be i

char!e o#, that they ca lead with ad it is s"ecially i# it is somethi! like the culture or

the ha""iess o# "eo"le or certai "eo"le9s eeds that it !ives them a outlet ad it iscorrective.

CM: >i!ht. 3d so the issue is how to "revet hierarchical ico!ruities ad doublebid commuicatios. The im"ortat #actor to remember #rom this class is that you eed

a!reemet at the to" echelos, at the to" levels o# the com"ay, the or!ai$atio, the

#amily. -ou eed clear roles. -ou eed sim"licity i the roles. -ou eed cosistecy,

clear cose(ueces which you could call "olicy that i# the cose(ueces o# that behaviorcaot be im"rovised, there has to be a "olicy that is kow ahead o# time so i# you do

this, you will be demoted. I# you do that, we9ll take away your cell "hoe. It has to be

"re'established. -ou have to always remember that bei! hi!her i the hierarchy does9t

mea oly authority, it meas res"osibility to "rotect.

MP: -es. There are "ieces that they eed to #ocus o the well'bei! o# the !rou" ad theor!ai$atio.

CM: Over ad above ay idividual.

MP: -ou eed to have a leadershi" orietatio meai! that you are uderstadi! the

eeds o# the "eo"le, the "erso i ay !rou" who best uderstads the eeds ad the best

#uture #or "eo"le o the !rou" becomes the leader de #acto ad to always #ocus o the!ood itetios o# the "eo"le to declare your !ood itetios, your "ur"ose ad to always

attribute !ood itetios to the "erso o matter what level o# co#lict you maybe i.

The come u" with solutios that lead to the outcome. Those are the basicB

CM: ery !ood. We have #ive miutes #or some (uestios. *hall we take some

(uestios?

MP: -eah, absolutely. *tar'two ad I9m !oi! to see i# we have some L3 here #rom

the webcast. Okay. Great. I have a (uestio here. What is the di##erece betwee whe

the "aret is a!ry with the child because they did somethi! bad without cosideri! thedouble bid.

CM: @irst o# all, it is ot !ood to be a!ry. -ou have to try to avoid a!er. 3!er is ota !ood emotio so i# you e)"eriece a!er, you have to immediately thik, how ca I

co#orm this a!er ito somethi! that is "ositive ad cotribute. *o you ca be

cocered, you ca be solutio'#ocused thiki! how ca I resolve this so you it does otha""e a!ai. 3!er o#te leads to double bid commuicatio because you do love the

child but at the momet that you are a!ry, you are commuicati! the o""osite o# love.

-ou are commuicati! dislike ad i# the a!er leads you to character assassiatio, it is

eve worst. 2ut the way to tras#orm the a!er ad !ive a commuicatio that is ot

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double bidi! is to say, 4I kow that your itetios are !ood. I kow that you are

looki! #or variety ad etertaimet,5 #or e)am"le. 42ut you scared me ad I was

cocered #or your sa#ety so let us talk about how you ca !et eou!h etertaimet advariety with your #rieds without my thiki! that you are com"romisi! your sa#ety.5

MP: Great. *o i other words, you wat to #ocus o a actio that ca still be take addecisios that ca still be take. 3 very im"ortat "art o# ay o# these commuicatio

"atters is that you eed to leave room #or the "erso to be able to do somethi!. *o it is

very double bidi! i# you act like it is too late. They are already bei! +ud!ed, thebalace is already bei! cast. *o i every case, you wat to !ive the "erso somethi!

more tha they ca do or !ive yoursel# other thi!s that you ca do.

CM: >i!ht ad i# there is a cose(uece & we #or!ot to discuss this be#ore. The "olicy orthe cose(ueces that are established ahead o# time are im"ortat. It is very im"ortat to

remember that the cose(ueces should be small because #or e)am"le i# you say to a

teea!er, 4How, you are !rouded #or a moth.5 Well, a moth #or the teea!er is like

eterity. It is ho"eless the ad you do9t wat to create the mid #rame o# ho"elessess.*o i the same way i a com"ay, you do9t demote somebody uless it is absolutely

essetial. -ou will say, 6Well, you kow the e)t "ro+ect I am !oi! to have to !ive toaother em"loyee but the the "ro+ect a#ter that would come to you.6 -ou wat small

cose(ueces.

MP: h'hmm. ee" them small. Great. We have a (uestio here. The (uestio here: I

have to admit it. I did ot uderstad this itervetio. This is #rom the very be!ii!

o# our class here.

CM: >i!ht.

MP: What was the switchi! "oit? What made the actual switch? I kow that it issomethi! to ha""e i the semiar but what.

CM: Okay. *orry I #or!ot to e)"lai that I really a""reciate this (uestio because we had"laed to talk about this at the be!ii! ad the we sort o# lauched ito it ad #or!ot.

This module is called Ocea / because ow it is !oi! to come Module Ocea < which is

the real itervetio. *o, because it was so lo!, we broke it u" ito two modules. *o i

this module, Ocea /, i this #ilm, Toy is basically +ust showi! uderstadi! adsym"athy ad res"ect #or Ocea. 7e is ot really itervei!. The mai itervetio

there came #rom *a!e, Toy9s wi#e ad Ocea9s mom whe *a!e heard that all this drama

was ha""ei!, she immediately ivited Ocea to come over to stay with her ad Toy to"artici"ate i Toy9s evet ad so she "ulled Ocea away #rom the uclear #amily ad

this is the #uctio o# ucles ad !rad"arets ad relatives. Whe a co#lict i the

uclear #amily !ets too hot, it is !ood to "ull the teea!er out #or a while. It !iveseverybody a break ad the time to re!rou" ad rethik everythi!. *o basically that was

the mai itervetio ad I commet o that towards the ed o# the #ilm.

MP: I thik oe thi! that is very im"ortat thou!h #or teea!ers is i# they are i this

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"oit where they had these least co#usios thou!h, it is a hu!e itervetio #or them to

+ust be able to commuicate i this co#usio ad to be uderstood.

CM: 3d that is what Toy !ave the o""ortuity to Ocea9s com"laits.

MP: *o i# you were i his case ad you are listei! to Ocea ad she says, 4My #athercame ad he #ou!ht with me ad I didt uderstad why I could9t have


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im"ortat tha whatever decisio is made or whatever cotet or the a!reemet. *o they

+ust have to a!ree ad that it is im"ortat to "ick +ust three or #our thi!s that they a!ree

o. They caot be too may or it is overwhelmi! #or childre ad so +ust "ick three o##our thi!s ad write them dow ad hold them to the idea that these are their oly

e)"ectatios throu!h your #our thi!s ad i# there is aythi! else that they wat to

discuss, it has to be at a e)ecutive meeti! oce a week.

I# you are the thera"ist or the coach, the the e)ecutive meeti! at the be!ii! is with

you so they ca oly bri! u" u"leasat circumstaces or u"leasat criticisms o# eachother or e!ative issues i the meeti! with you. The rest o# the week, they ca oly talk

about "ositive thi!s uless the house is o #ire. ltimately, you !raduate them so that

the e)ecutive meeti!s ca be +ust with each other ot with you but at the be!ii!, it is

better to have them +ust with you. 2ut the im"ortat thi! is to kee" them to three or #ourthi!s ad to value a!reemet betwee over ad above aythi! else. How, i# this ma is

really as di##icult as you say, you mi!ht say to them the maybe the a!reemet ca be that

he has the ri!ht everyday to com"lai about oe thi! ad each day could be a di##eret

thi! ad she will hear him ad +ust say, 4I9m sorry, dear.5

Mia: h'hmm. Well, i that caseB

CM: 7ow does that soud?

CrosstalkD

CM: I# he is com"laii! because you su!!ested that, the he has to com"lai everyday

ad he has to com"lai about a di##eret thi!. It is ot the same as i# he com"laiss"otaeously.

Mia: h'hmm. Well, this "articular #ellow is a sub+ect o# & okay, they already have aa!reemet i "lace #or visitatio betwee them ad their child but they alreadyB

CM: *o they are divorced?

Mia: -eah, they are se"arated ad so what is ha""ei! is that the a!reemet cotiually

comes back ito "las as #ar as, you kow well it is worded this way ad this does9t

a""ly or this was9t addressed ad so it is like he is cotiually wati! to create chaos,ri!ht? 7e is very, but at the same time, I have the sus"icios that he is like a borderlie

"ersoality ad mid you I would ot be the oe to dia!ose somethi! like that but I

s"et a !reat deal tryi! to #i!ure outB

CM: Well, basically you kow what borderlie meas, I hate all those dia!osis but what

borderlie meas is somebody who is u"leasat because they seem to a!ree with youad the all o# a sudde, they are a!aist you.

Mia: -es, ad it is very much like that because, 4Oh, thak you very much. Thak you,5

but as soo as somethi! kid o# does9t !o his way, he will ow, I9m the oe bei!

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u#air ad I9m taki! sides whe I am really ot. 3d I9ve bee very care#ul to try to

moitor, 43m I taki! sides?5 ad I thik he +ust sort o# "roe to histrioics o# 6Well,

ow it is so u#air to me,6 you kow adB

CM: >i!ht. Well, I thik that i a situatio o# divorce ad visitatio, it is really

im"ortat to reali$e that the co#lict betwee the "arets, the oes that are !oi! to su##ermost are the childre. *o i# you !et them somehow to value a!reemet more tha

aythi! else, i# you let the wi#e uderstad that it is better #or her to be tolerat ad

#le)ible rather tha have the child be cau!ht i a terrible double bid betwee the two o#them. It o#te takes oe "aret to be more #le)ible ad tolerat tha the other "aret ad

oe "aret to !ive i.

Mia: >i!ht.

CM: *o they have to value the & at least oe o# them has to value the ha""iess o# the

child over ad above the coveiece o# the "arets.

Mia: -eah, ad that is actually what I have bee worki! with her o the last issues. I

am always the oe !ivi! i ad she does9tB

CM: 3d you say, 6*ometimes it is like that ad it is ot #orever. 2y the time the child is

eleve or twelve, it will ot matter. The child is !oi! to be with whom they wat to be.6

Mia: -eah.

CM: -ou make it a thi! that has a limit i time so it is ot e)"eriece that this is !oi!to !o o #orever.

Mia: 3ll ri!ht. Okay, Cloe. I hadt doe that but it is already !reat. Thak you.

CM: Thaks. -ou have a !reat (uestio. Okay.

MP: That is a !reat (uestio. Cloe, you kow, oe o# my #avorite strate!ies #or !etti!

someoe accoutable is to !o to the *i) 7uma Heeds so would it be also a thi! that

you could the cou"le to ask themselves how they are meeti! the childre9s eeds? What

way they deal with the co#lict?

CM: That is woder#ul. -es.

MP: *o would the #ather mi!ht reali$e that he is meeti! their eeds #or security at the

very, very low levels.

CM >i!ht.

MP: 3d the cha!e the "riorities.

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CM: -eah, that is a !reat idea. To hel" the "arets uderstad the huma eeds o# the

child ad the vehicles that the child eeds, it uses or eeds to use to satis#y those eeds.

MP: *o oe o# the vehicles would be that the "arets have a civil relatioshi".

CM: -es.

MP: Where they do9t have co#lict aroud the visitatio hours. Thi!s like that.

Mia: -eah, ad she is very much i doi! e)actly that like I9ve worked her #or i that.

3ctually these are all the thi!s I9ve doe. This is !reat. Im !lad I am heari! them

#rom you but I9m doi! that with her ad so she !ets that. It is very much him who

does9t9 really wat to e!a!e. It is sort o# a dimesioal (uestio earlier. I thik he wasblu##i! kid o# like be#ore where he +ust ca9t !et aybody to have that heart#elt

uderstadi!, ca9t eve !et him to that "oit #irst ad so eve +ust !etti! to that "oit

is a stru!!le #or this "erso.

CM: 2ut there are sta!es. 3 ma who has all these di##iculties bei! the #ather o# a

you! child may become a e)cellet #ather o# a teea!er. *o you have to hel" heruderstad that these all could be tem"orary.

Mia: -eah.

CM: Okay.

Thak you very much.

CM: Thak you. Okay, we are over time I thik.

MP: Okay. you kow we are a little bit over time. 3ll ri!ht, everybody. et us umute

it. Oh, it is loud i here. Okay, everybody. Thak you very much #or comi!.

CM: 3ll ri!ht. Thak you very much. Thak you, !uys.

31 - systemic thinking - ocean 1 - teleclass - transcript

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