jackson v aeglive- transcripts - june 21st dr. charles czeisler. sleep medicine, harvard medical...

7/28/2019 Jackson V AEGLive- Transcripts - June 21st Dr. Charles Czeisler. Sleep Medicine, Harvard Medical School

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JACKSON V AEGLIVE June 21th Dr. Charles Czeisler

Ms. Stebbins: just briefly, your honor. Yesterday we left off with a hypothetical uestion.!"# not sure of the plaintiffs" position. $ut ! believe where we left off yesterday was the

Murray interview uestions rendered in the hypothetical unusable unless they are willing

to stipulate to the ad#issibility of that interview, your honor. So ! don"t %now where

plaintiffs are on that, but ! would as% that they withdraw the hypothetical if they"re not

going to stipulate to that, and otherwise stipulate to that, and then we have the interview in.

$ut ! did want to raise a couple other issues with that particular hypothetical uestion,

very briefly, your honor. &ne is, there are so#e other facts that are wrong in it, and ! thin%

so#e of these plaintiffs will agree with. Most notably that testi#ony related to 'ai (hase

to...

Mr. 'os%off: ! agree with that. ! was planning to correct that #isstate#ent when ! began.Than% you.

Ms. Stebbins: and that there are also so#e other ones. There is ... for instance, they stated

that there is an e#ail fro# )lif San%ey about Michael *ac%son+s health. The e#ail doesn"t

#ention Michael *ac%son+s health in any way. There"s a ... you %now, they stated Ms.

San%ey testified that on May -th and th, Mr. *ac%son was wearing heavy clothes and

gloves. That"s actually not true. She said he wore heavy clothes at so#e point but did not

specify the date. There"s little things li%e that. /hich leads #e to the other issue, your

honor, which is, the law in (alifornia is that hypotheticals are perfectly proper, assu#ed

facts are proper, but what you #ay not do is as% an e0pert to interpret evidence that"s

properly within the a#bit of the jury. So what should be done, rather than say, assu#ethere"s an e#ail that says this, and as% the e0pert to draw inferences fro# the e#ail as to

Mr. *ac%son"s health, the proper course is to state the assu#ed facts that you would li%e the

e0pert to co##ent on. !n this case...

*udge: you want the e0pert to draw the inferences1

Ms. Stebbins: no, your honor.

*udge: !+# not sure...

Ms. Stebbins: well, that"s the proble#, your honor. The uestion that"s posed reuired the

e0pert to draw the inference instead of saying there"s an e#ail that states the sa#e. )nd

then the e0pert is reuired ... if he said, assu#e Mr. &rtega wrote an e#ail, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, then the e0pert has to evaluate 'enny &rtega+s credibility, evaluate

his ability to observe, deter#ine what he observed is accurate or not. )nd then based on

that, render it. So the appropriate way to as% these uestions, your honor, is to say, assu#e

that the evidence in this case shows that on these dates, Michael *ac%son e0hibited these

sy#pto#s, you %now, that he was disoriented, confused, rather than going piece by piece,
http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/8530http://teammichaeljackson.com/archives/8530


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injuries. =e"s #a%ing #ista%es, he"s hurting. =e #ust ta%e care of hi#self so he can #eet

the schedule or there will be conseuences. that reuires this e0pert, who has never #et Mr.

&rtega, who has never heard any evidence in this case, to ta%e these state#ents, evaluate

what they #ean, attribute the# to #ean what they say, which #eans his #uscles were

hurting or to draw fro# that inference that, you %now, he"s slow, or he"s sorer than usual,

et cetera. !n other words...

*udge: it"s preferable to have the lawyer interpret what the evidence is and as%ing the

witness to agree with counsel"s interpretation of what evidence is1

Mr. Panish: that"s e0actly how you do it.

*udge: it"s preferable to get the testi#ony or whatever piece of evidence. That #a%es it

#ore accurate.

Ms. (ahan: ! thin% either way, you still have this proble#. They"re sandwiching a whole lot

of prejudicial interpretation of evidence in between a foundational pre#ise that is not ...they don"t have a good8faith basis to de#onstrate what will be put into evidence unless

they"re willing to stipulate...

Mr. Panish: we don"t need that.

Ms. (ahan: and without that, there is no ... the hypothetical isn"t answerable. $ecause the

hypothetical is, assu#ing he had propofol continuously for 7 days and was weaned off ...

*udge: he"s eli#inating that.

Mr. Panish: right.

*udge: basically, he was suffering fro# sleep deprivation, and then the jury can decide if

it"s a result of the use of the propofol in so#e way. So ! thin% if they eli#inate that 7 days,

and then he stopped ta%ing it for the prior two days, then the hypothetical is o%ay, as long

as they correct so#e of the other little things.

Ms. (ahan: if they"re as%ing about sleep deprivation and not propofol9 right1

*udge: well, the jury can draw the inference that it"s as a result of the use of propofol, but.

Ms. Stebbins: but the uestion can"t contain that, your honor, because their witness can"t

testify as to whether this is fro# propofol use or not.

Mr. Panish: wait a #inute. /e haven"t gotten there yet. They"re prejudging the uestion.

/e"re going to do e0actly what you...

*udge: let"s hear it.

Mr. Panish: ! just told you what we"re going to do.


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*udge: &%, So ! want to hear what the last uestion is going to be.

Ms. (ahan: well, ! have the uestion as it was as%ed yesterday, your honor. >octor, do you

have an opinion, based on a reasonable #edical probability, as to whether or not there was

a causal connection between the propofol that was given by >r. Murray and the sy#pto#s#anifested by Michael during that period of ti#e1 *ust "yes" or "no" at that point. That+s

not within this e0pert"s scope of e0pertise.

Mr. $oyle: your honor, we"re going to start over with the hypothetical. !t"s going to be

different.

Mr. 'os%off: !+# going to start over with the hypothetical. ! will not reread the entire

=ypothetical. ! will withdraw the assu#ptions that were based on Murray+s state#ent. !

will bring in other infor#ation to add. ! will then as% the doctor, does he have an opinion as

to whether these facts are consistent and are caused by total sleep deprivation over a

prolonged period of ti#e1 !s there any %nown agents that can cause prolonged sleep ... totalsleep deprivation1 )nd they can object at that ti#e. $ut ! don"t thin% anything should be

prejudged here. ! thin% what you should hear is what the foundation is, then they can #a%e

their objection.

Mr. Panish: and he"s going to ... we"ve changed the hypothetical. /e"re adding additional

facts. /e"re not relying on the police state#ent, and he"s giving opinions about total sleep

deprivation, which is in his area of e0pertise, which he testified about, and that"s what he"s

going to attac% it fro#.

Mr. $oyle: and he"s already testified that propofol causes no [email protected]. )nd [email protected]. Sleep

and that propofol also ta%es away the body"s natural drive to achieve sleep.

*udge: right. That"s true.

Mr. $oyle: and that will lead to total hu#an sleep deprivation.

Mr. 'os%off: all couched in his e0pertise as a sleep specialist.

Ms. Stebbins: we have no issue, your honor, with the first uestion. The second is

proble#atic where he says, is there any %nown agent1 The witness yesterday was allowed

to give li#ited infor#ation on propofol, based on a proffer that >r. $rown, or another

e0pert, will co#e in to support. $ut he"s not an e0pert to propofol and should not be

continuing on down that path. The jury can draw whatever inference it draws, but they

can"t as% this e0pert, are these caused by propofol1 Aoing bac% for a #o#ent to the

uestion itself, there"s one other sort of #ajor factual proble# with the things they as%ed

yesterday, and that related to Travis Payne+s testi#ony.

*udge: &%, So we haven"t ... the )lif San%ey e#ail about May -th and May th1


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Mr. Panish: isn"t this cross1

Mr. Putna#: no, your honor.

*udge: no. (orrect the hypothetical. !f there is a San%ey e#ail that says that, correct that.

Ms. Stebbins: the Supre#e (ourt, your honor, said last year that part of the court"s duty to

guard against uestions that are unduly prejudicial, #isleading, that #ight #isrepresent or

o#it i#portant facts, ! thin% we should try to connect up the facts before they offer...

*udge: ! agree. So the San%ey e#ail, and now we have Travis Payne1

Ms. Stebbins: Travis Payne+s testi#ony, your honor. They said that he was there to assist

M* when a ra#p lifted hi# up so he wouldn"t fall.

Mr. 'os%off: ! can"t hear you.

Ms. Stebbins: sure. Travis Payne ... they said in the hypothetical yesterday Travis Payne

testified that M* was there with a ra#p so he wouldn"t fall. That, your honor, falls into the

category of #isleading. They as%ed Mr. Payne about this, and he stated that it was the first

night that they used the ra#p and that anyone using the ra#p would have been spotted

because it was new euip#ent.

Mr. 'os%off: you %now what1 ! will add that.

Ms. Stebbins: he specifically rejected the inference...

Mr. 'os%off: ! will add that. You"re pushing #e through an open door.

*udge: &%, =e as in Mr. Payne withdrew so#ething or ... !+# sorry.

Ms. Stebbins: your honor, they as%ed Mr. Payne, did you assist M* with a ra#p1 )nd what

Mr. Payne said was, you %now, Mr. Panish as%ed, on that last date, how did you assist hi#1

So he wouldn"t fall on the ra#p9 isn"t that true1 Mr. Payne said, ! was there to assist hi# so

he wouldn"t fall. =e had never ridden it before, and it was standard safety precautions. so

in other words, he deliberately he specifically rebutted the inference that it was because

Michael was sic% or wea% or falling and said it was a safety precaution, it was new

euip#ent. The way they as%ed it yesterday was only part of it and #ade it #isleading and

therefore not proper.

Mr. 'os%off: you %now, ! wish you would just tal% a little slower.

Mr. $oyle: perhaps Ms. $ina...

Mr. 'os%off: ! can"t %eep up with the speed.


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*udge: well, the testi#ony concerning the ra#p, you need to clean that up. ! thin% the best

thing to do is leave it out altogether.

Mr. 'os%off: !+ll withdraw the testi#ony fro# Payne about that.

Ms. (ahan: and, your honor, as to the uestion about, can any %nown agent cause totalsleep deprivation, if that"s an area where they plan to proffer hi# as having e0pertise, it"s

not so#ething that we went into with >r. $rown. ! don"t thin% it"s appropriate for ... it

would be new testi#ony for >r. $rown and certainly new testi#ony for >r. (Beisler, and !

don"t thin% he has the foundation for it. !"d li%e to voir dire on that. )nd, also...

*udge: didn"t he testify it causes total sleep deprivation1

Mr. Panish: yes.

Mr. 'os%off: he already said it causes total sleep deprivation.

Mr. Panish: he e0plained why.

Mr. 'os%off: and the only agent he %nows of that does, and he"s the sleep e0pert.

Ms. (ahan: and he"s wrong about that, your honor, but we"ll get there on cross.

Mr. 'os%off: and you can cross8e0a#ine hi# on that.

Mr. Putna#: and if ! #ay, your honor, for the sa%e of the record, because what the courts

have indicated should or should not be done with hypotheticals, which is that they don"t go

into specifics, such as e#ails so they have to draw inferences, but rather give the facts on

which they"re saying it. Such as you #ay say, presu#e he is cold, presu#e he is e0hibiting

certain signs, as opposed to saying, and suppose there"s an e#ail fro# 'enny &rtega on a

given date that says the following. The precise reason why the court has said this

historically is for the reason that ... particularly with an e0pert, is what you"re doing is

as%ing the e0pert to go into...

*udge: ! disagree. ! thin% it"s worse to do the opposite. ! thin% if counsel says, assu#e he

was cold on this day, he"s referring to the 'enny &rtega description of Mr. *ac%son in

war# clothing, then counsel"s doing the interpretation of the evidence and as%ing the

e0pert to agree with the interpretation. ! don"t thin% that"s appropriate. ! thin% it"s better

to state facts that have been presented in the trial. That"s #ore accurate. So ! disagree with

your interpretation.

Mr. Putna#: and !+# only doing this for the sa%e of the record. )nd the reason !+# doing

this, just to be clear, is since they"re giving a closing twice in the span of two days, and

based on these facts, ! want to #a%e sure that the record reflects that we objected to the

sa#e.


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*udge: it"s understood you"re objecting to every fact in the hypothetical9 you"re objecting to

the opinion9 you"re objecting to this witness"s ualifications9 you"re objecting to all ... !+ll

note for the record those objection are there.

Mr. $oyle: and, your honor, they also objected that his ualifications are so good that his

opinion would be unduly prejudicial.

Mr. Panish: that"s what Mr. Putna# said yesterday. So on one hand, they"re saying he"s not

ualified9 on the other hand, Mr. Putna# told us yesterday that he"s so ualified that his

opinion is unduly prejudicial. )nd they #ade their argu#ents and the objections, and the

court is correct in the interpretation of hypothetical uestions. )nd can we proceed now1

Ms. Stebbins: your honor...

*udge: yes. The concern is the final uestion. ! still want to hear about that.

Mr. Panish: we just told it to you. They don"t object to that.

Ms. Stebbins: the first one, we don"t object to9 the second, we do.

*udge: and the second, again1

Mr. 'os%off: it"s going to be: based upon the evidence in the hypothetical, do you have an

opinion as to what the cause of that total sleep deprivation was1 !n the hypothetical, we"re

going to have so#e #ore infor#ation.

*udge: &%, /hat is the #ore infor#ation1 ;et"s not hide the ball.

Mr. 'os%off: #ore infor#ation1 =e died of acute propofol poisoning not in the

hypothetical. There was intravenous set up in the roo#. There was an order for C....

Mr. $oyle: gallons.

Mr. 'os%off: ... gallons of propofol #ade in )pril. There was propofol found in the area.

*udge: large a#ount of bottles.

Mr. 'os%off: eats li%e a duc%, s#ells li%e a duc%, loo%s li%e a duc%, it"s probably a duc%.

)nd that"s ... it"s not ... it doesn"t ta%e it really doesn"t ta%e the head of science to say that

that"s what it was. )nd propofol is the only %nown agent that he %nows that can cause ...

and he #ay be cross8e0a#ined on that, and that would be great if you can do that but it"s

the only %nown agent that causes total co#plete obliteration of [email protected]. )nd [email protected].

Sleep. )nd he"ll e0plain why and e0plain how consistent it is with all of the sy#pto#s.

*udge: let #e as% defense counsel. >idn"t ! say if they brought in the testi#ony of >an

$rown...


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Ms. (ahan: @#ery an $rown is, ! thin%, theDa Vinci Code.

Mr. 'os%off: we do have hi# on our witness list.

Mr. Panish: he"s going to rebut the triple hearsay of the #ediu# ghost that they

introduced.

*udge: all right.

Ms. (ahan: >r. $rown...

Mr. Panish: he"s in ?ye, r.

$rown"s testi#ony.

Mr. Putna#: to be clear, what that #eans, your honor, is they %eep trying to li#it hi# to

three uestions that they would li%e to create. They have presu#ed that with this e0pert

and their other e0perts. /e cannot be so li#ited when we uestion hi# as to the three

uestions they would li%e us to as% of Mr. $rown.

Mr. Panish: !+# as%ing the uestions. They"re going to cross8e0a#ine within the scope of

the uestions, and the court will deter#ine what is appropriate and what isn"t.


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*udge: all right. !"# not li#iting that.

Mr. Putna#: than% you.

Mr. Panish: we haven"t gotten there yet. ! don"t %now why we+re...

*udge: !+# going to allow it with the understanding that $rown can lay a further

foundation here.

Ms. Stebbins: than% you, your honor.

Mr. Putna#: than% you.

*udge: if there"s a proble# with the hypothetical, raise it, and we can tal% about it again.

DThe jury entered the courtroo# at 3:C4 a.#.E

Ms. (ahan: and, your honor, just while he"s getting settled, so the record is clear, we"re

going to #ove to stri%e the uestion fro# yesterday, and ! understand it will be

refor#ulated with different infor#ation.

*udge: ! agree. !"# going to stri%e the uestion and the answer. /e"re going to start all over

again fro# that last uestion.

Mr. 'os%off: but, your honor, ! hope you"ll allow #e, when ! get to the appropriate ti#e, to

reincorporate those other parts so ! don"t have to go over the whole hypothetical again.

*udge: oh, ! see.

Mr. 'os%off: ! thin% ... unless the jury would li%e to hear it. $ut what !+d li%e to do is

si#ply withdraw the assu#ptions, two assu#ptions, which ! thin% satisfies the court.

Ms. (ahan: the two assu#ptions and few corrections we discussed.

*udge: &%, Then let"s do that.

Mr. 'os%off: when ! get to that portion, ! will do that. ! just wanted to go bac% and cover

one or two things first...

*udge: &%,

Mr. 'os%off: for clarity"s sa%e.


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>r. (Beisler

DSleep @0pertE

>irect e0a#ination by Mr. 'os%off for plaintiffs

Q. Doctor, yesterday hen I ent o!er your credent"a#s, I sort o$ sto%%ed hen I thou&ht thereas 'ust not enou&h t"(e, )ut I d"d ant to ... there ere a cou%#e o$ th"n&s that I d"d ant to)r"n& out that I neected to as* you. And )y the ay, th"s "s a ... th"s "s %art o$ your curr"cu#u(!"tae. +h"s "s 'ust a sect"on o$ your curr"cu#u( !"tae

A. -es.

Ms. (ahan: #ay ! have a copy, please1

Mr. 'os%off: it"s attached to his depo.

>r. (Beisler: yes. !t is attach#ent c8.

Mr. 'os%off: part of c8.


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Q. One &rant. Get a &rant $ro( the N:L

)@A objection: ?elevance. *udge: overruled.

>r. (Beisler: yes. /e"ve just been awarded a grant by ... fro# the nil charity, a F77,777grant, in which !+# the principal investigator, to screen all of the players on the 24 tea#s in

the national football league for obstructive sleep apnea. They"re at high ris% for obstructive

sleep apnea. So#ewhere between C and 3 percent of the players, particularly the

line#en, who often have very #uscular nec%s, and only so #uch real estate in the nec%.

)nd when the airway begins to be co#pro#ised, they can have an increased ris% of sleep

apnea.

Q. +h"s s#ee% a%nea "s here a %erson sort o$ sto%s )reath"n& here...

A. -es. Its one o$ the ;< s#ee% d"sorders, and "t "s assoc"ated "th cessat"on o$ )reath"n& dur"n&s#ee%. No, the )ra"n nor(a##y then a*es u%, )ecause o$ the arousa# center, "t "nterru%ts s#ee% "norder to a##o the( to )reath. =ut they (ay "nterru%t the"r s#ee% 1, 2, 0 t"(es %er n"&ht.

Q. And are $oot)a## %#ayers %art"cu#ar#y su)'ect to th"s %ro)#e(

A. +hey ha!e a h"&h %re!a#ence o$ o)struct"!e s#ee% a%nea.

Q. =ecause o$ the"r )ody ty%e

A. -eah. And so the %ur%ose o$ the %ro'ect "s to screen a## o$ the %#ayers, &"!en they ha!e a h"&h%re!a#ence, and (a*e sure that those ho are su$$er"n& $ro( o)struct"!e s#ee% a%nea can &et thetreat(ent they need "n order to %er$or( the"r )est. And I th"n* "t as to ... and a#so to "(%ro!ethe"r hea#th, )ecause o)struct"!e s#ee% a%nea "ncreases the r"s* o$ card"o!ascu#ar d"sease,d"a)etes, other cond"t"ons. Its the #ead"n& *non cause $or h"&h )#ood %ressure, $or e4a(%#e.

Q. Are there other &rants you!e rece"!ed a#so "n the #ast $e years

A. -es. e ere 'ust ... our 38.7 ("##"on tra"n"n& &rant...

Q. /o (uch

A. 38.7 tra"n"n& &rant tra"n"n& the ne4t &enerat"on o$ s%ec"a#"sts. I( the %r"nc"%a# "n!est"&atorand d"rector o$ the tra"n"n& %ro&ra( at the =r"&ha( o(ens hos%"ta#, /ar!ard >ed"ca# Schoo#,to ... "ts ca##ed, the tra"n"n& %ro&ra( "n s#ee% c"rcad"an and res%"ratory neuro)"o#o&y.

Q. S#ee% and res%"ratory neuro)"o#o&y

A. -es.


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Q. hat "s res%"ratory neuro)"o#o&y

A. e##, neuro)"o#o&y "s the study o$ ho the )ra"n contro#s !ar"ous as%ects o$ %hys"o#o&y, and"n connect"on "th the res%"ratory, s#ee%, c"rcad"an and neuro)"o#o&y. So s#ee%, neuro)"o#o&y,

c"rcad"an, res%"ratory. And the reason res%"ratory "s "n!o#!ed "s )ecause o$ o)struct"!e s#ee%a%nea, h"ch "s one o$ the (ost co((on s#ee% d"sorders there "s.

Q. O*, And hat other &rants, 'ust "n the #ast cou%#e o$ years I dont ant to &o )ac* 0 years.

A. ?"&ht. I understand.

)@A objection: ?elevance.

*udge: objection to1

Ms. (ahan: relevance.

*udge: of his grants1

Ms. (ahan: ! haven"t heard anything related to the testi#ony here yet. /e"re not

challenging his e0pertise in sleep generally.

Mr. 'os%off: ! thin% she raised in her uestions as to why he didn"t get a grant, and ! thin%

having done that, we"re entitled to show that he does get grants.

Ms. (ahan: we"ll stipulate to his receiving a lot of grants, but the issue was related to

propofol.

Mr. 'os%off: this is a spea%ing objection.

*udge: let her finish. ?ight. !t was to the particular grant that dealt with propofol...

Ms. (ahan: right.

*udge: ... is that correct1

Ms. (ahan: !+# concerned about undue consu#ption of ti#e on #atters that...

Mr. 'os%off: !+# not going to go...

*udge: !+ll overrule the objection.


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>r. (Beisler: can you tell #e the page nu#ber where the grants are1

Mr. 'os%off: !+ll even #ove on fro# there because ! %now you+ve...

*udge: well, he described three grants. That"s sufficient.

Mr. 'os%off: yeah.

Q. >any, (any &rants o!er the years

A. -es. I!e )een cont"nuous#y $unded )y the nat"ona# "nst"tutes o$ hea#th.

Q. Nat"ona# hat

A. Nat"ona# "nst"tutes o$ hea#th $or (ore than 0 years. I!e a#so rece"!ed &rants $ro( the ... e

ha!e an on&o"n& &rant $ro( :E>A to #oo* at $"re$"&hters and to screen $"re$"&hters $or s#ee%d"sorders. e rece"!ed a &rant $ro( the nat"ona# "nst"tute o$ 'ust"ce to ... and the center $ord"sease contro# to conduct a s#ee% d"sorder screen"n& o$ %o#"ce around the country. e %u)#"shedan art"c#e "n thejournal ofAmerican Medical Association as a resu#t o$ that &rant, sho"n& thatnear#y one "n three %o#"ce o$$"cers screens %os"t"!e $or o)struct"!e s#ee% a%nea, and e ha!erece"!ed a &rant ...

*udge: &%, /e+re...

>r. (Beisler: through the institute of justice.

*udge: we understand you"ve received a lot of grants.

>r. (Beisler: that was the uestion.

*udge: one in particular the defense focused on, but ! thin% we understand.

Mr. 'os%off: &%, !"# going to #ove on.

Q. Doctor, theres one or to other th"n&s I ant to as* you a)out. -ou are the head o$ thede%art(ent o$ s#ee% (ed"c"ne at the /ar!ard >ed"ca# Schoo#

A. -es. I( the d"rector o$ the d"!"s"on o$ s#ee% (ed"c"ne at /ar!ard >ed"ca# Schoo#.

Q. And are you a#so the ch"e$ o$ the d"!"s"on o$ s#ee% (ed"c"ne "n the de%art(ent o$ (ed"c"ne at=r"&ha( o(ens /os%"ta#


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A. -es. Ch"e$ o$ the d"!"s"on o$ s#ee% (ed"c"ne and "n the de%art(ent o$ (ed"c"ne at the =r"&ha(o(ens /os%"ta#.

Q. And "n th"s case, do you understand that Dr. >urray as an "ntern"st

A. -es.

Q. O*, And that...

*udge: wasn"t he a cardiologistG (ounsel, wasn"t he a cardiologist1

Mr. 'os%off: yes. $ut only board certified in internal #edicine.

*udge: oh, &%,

Mr. 'os%off: he held hi#self out as a cardiologist, but he did not have the board...

Ms. (ahan: objection. (ounsel is testifying.

Mr. Panish: you as%ed the uestion.

*udge: ! as%ed the uestion.

Q. So d"d you understand that he as ... h"s )oard as "nterna# (ed"c"ne

A. -es.

Q. And "s there a standard te4t)oo* "n the $"e#d o$ "nterna# (ed"c"ne that "s used "de#ythrou&hout the 5n"ted States

)@A objection: ;ac%s foundation. =e isn"t trained as an internist. *udge: sustained.

Mr. 'os%off: no. ! want a sidebar.

*udge: no, ! don"t thin%...

Mr. 'os%off: it"s not ... if your honor please, this is ... !+ll as% the uestion this way.

Q. D"d you r"te the art"c#e $or the standard te4t)oo* that "s used throu&hout the or#d "n"nterna# (ed"c"ne

)@A objection: (alls for speculation, lac%s foundation.


17/135

*udge: did you write an article1

Q. D"d you r"te a cha%ter "n the te4t)oo*, /arr"son@s te4t)oo* $or Interna# >ed"c"ne

*udge: first of all, have you heard of that te0tboo%1

>r. (Beisler: yes.

Q. D"d you r"te the cha%ter "n that te4t)oo* on the treat(ent and d"a&nos"s and treat(ent o$s#ee% d"sorders

A. -es. :or the #ast 2 years I ha!e r"tten the cha%ter "n e!ery ed"t"on o$ /arr"son@s te4t)oo* onInterna# >ed"c"ne on s#ee% d"sorders.

Q. O*, /a!"n& *non that you rote the cha%ter "n the...

*udge: hold on. >id you get that full answer1

The court reporter: yes. ! got the full answer but did not get the following uestion.

*udge: &%, Please.

Q. /a!"n& *non that you rote the cha%ter, do you *no so(eth"n& a)out the %o%u#ar"ty o$ thete4t)oo*

)@A objection: ;ac%s foundation, calls for speculation. *udge: sustained.

Mr. 'os%off: was that sustained, your honor1

*udge: it was regarding the popularity of the te0tboo%.

Q. Do you *no hether or not /arr"son@s "s cons"dered author"tat"!e "n the $"e#d o$ Interna#>ed"c"ne

AEG o)'ect"on Lac*s $oundat"on, ca##s $or s%ecu#at"on. /es not an "ntern"st, your honor.

Jud&e "s "t used "n (ed"ca# schoo#s, or "s there so(e...


18/135


19/135

Q. A%%ro4"(ate#y.

A. I )e#"e!e that as "n 12.

Q. O*, No I ou#d #"*e to &o and %"c* u% a #"tt#e )"t $ro( here e #e$t o$$ yesterday.And at that %o"nt I as*ed you a !ery, !ery, !ery #on& hy%othet"ca# uest"on, and I ou#d #"*e to ...$"rst, I ant to correct a ("sstate(ent that I (ade "n the hy%othet"ca#. And I ... the ("sstate(entas that ... I stated that Karen :aye ent aay "n A%r"#, ca(e )ac* "n June, and I (eant ... and Ishou#d ha!e sa"d that "t as Ka" Chase at that %o"nt. +hat Karen :aye ... there as no e!"dencethat Karen :aye d"d that. And I ou#d a#so #"*e to "thdra a state(ent that as "n thehy%othet"ca#, that +ra!"s ayne he#%ed ... that +ra!"s ayne needed he#%, that %art o$ test"(ony.And I@d 'ust #"*e the 'ury to dec"de $or "tse#$ hat that e!"dence "s hen they hear "t. +here ascon$#"ct"n& ... there as so(e con$#"ct"n& e!"dence, and I@( "##"n& to "thdra that, +ra!"sayne need"n& he#%.

Ms. (ahan: no, it wasn"t a discussion of Travis Payne needing help...

Mr. 'os%off: !+# sorry. !t was a discussion of Michael *ac%son needing help, that Travis

Payne was assisting Michael...

Mr. Panish: on the ra#p.

Mr. 'os%off: on the ra#p.

*udge: let"s do a stipulation.

Mr. Panish: the stipulation will be its withdrawn, any reference of Travis Payne assisting

Michael *ac%son on ! believe it was the 4Cth of *une on a ra#p during rehearsal.

*udge: is that stipulated1

Ms. (ahan: yes, your honor.

Mr. 'os%off: !+# just saying we"re withdrawing that and we"ll let the jury decide for itself.

Mr. Panish: it"s withdrawn fro# the uestion.

Mr. 'os%off: it"s just withdrawn fro# the uestion.

*udge: than% you.

>r. (Beisler: but with respect to Travis Payne...


20/135

Q. -es.

A. /"s state(ent that >r. Jac*son had a hard t"(e %"c*"n& u% (ater"a# and not coherent

Q. +hat "s not "thdran.

A. +hat "s not "thdran. >ay I as* a uest"on on the %re!"ous th"n& that you sa"d a)out Ka"Chase

Q. -es.

A. So "n (y ... I as try"n& to r"te don as u"c*#y as %oss")#e hat you ere say"n&. At theend o$ A%r"#, 2, that he as stron&, and "t chan&ed drast"ca##y. She thou&ht he as th"nner, h"ss*"n &ot dryer, eye dro%s, th"nner, re%eat"n& h"(se#$ a #ot, asnt the sa(e (an she *ne. Areyou say"n& that as Ka" Chase "nstead o$...

Q. -es.

Ms. (ahan: no. !t was a different portion of the hypothetical.

*udge: that was 'aren 6aye.

>r. (Beisler: that was 'aren 6aye1

*udge: that was attributed to 'aren 6aye.

>r. (Beisler: all right. So that is still 'aren 6aye1

Mr. 'os%off: yes, it is.

>r. (Beisler: what is the state#ent that was changed1

H. *ust the state#ent that 'aren 6aye went away and %ai chase

Ms. (ahan: your honor, ! can read it for the record as it was represented yesterday, if it

would be helpful. Yesterday it was said that: 6aye testified at the end of )pril when ...

assu#e that 6aye testified at the end of )pril when she left Mr. *ac%son"s house, he was

strong, healthy, active, interactive, loo%ed good. /hen she returned on *une 4nd, he

appeared very wea%, he loo%ed thinner, undernourished. There was an obvious difference

between how he loo%ed in )pril and in *une. ! believe we"re agreeing that that

hypothetical ... portion of the hypothetical pertains to the testi#ony of %ai chase, not

testi#ony of 'aren 6aye.

Mr. 'os%off: yes.


21/135

Mr. Panish: correct.

Mr. 'os%off: correct.

*udge: &%, So, doctor, you understand now that that"s the correction1

>r. (Beisler: yes.

*udge: &%,

Q. O*, No, I ant to do to other th"n&s. I as*ed you to (a*e an assu(%t"on "n the )e&"nn"n&o$ the hy%othet"ca# that >"chae# Jac*son had rece"!ed %ro%o$o# cont"nuous#y at n"&ht $or the 7days %r"or to June 22nd. I ant to "thdra that assu(%t"on $or no. And I ant to "thdra theassu(%t"on $or no that a$ter June 22nd that he as )e"n& eaned $ro( %ro%o$o#. Got "t

A. -e%.

Q. A## o$ the other $actors that ere "n th"s uest"on I ant you to ha!e re(a"n other than theones e ha!e st"%u#ated to.

Ms. (ahan: there were two others, your honor, we discussed.

*udge: ! thin% there was an )lif San%ey correction.

Ms. (ahan: e#ail and state#ent about clothing on *une -th and *une th.

*udge: &%, /hy don"t you state what it is, Ms. (ahan, and see if we can agree to it.

Ms. Stebbins: and ! can be specific to it.

Mr. 'os%off: ! can"t hear.

Ms. (ahan: ! have it. !t"s &%,

Ms. Stebbins: &%,

Ms. (ahan: one portion of the hypothetical is that San%ey testified ... Ms. San%ey

testified ... assu#e Ms. San%ey testified that Mr. *ac%son was wearing layers of clothing on

*une -th, *une th. =e was cold, he wore gloves, sat at rehearsal and watched the run8

through. )nd that ... ! believe the date, there was no date associated with the testi#ony

that"s being addressed in the hypothetical.


22/135


23/135

*udge: was there an e#ail or not1 /e certainly need to %now that.

Mr. Panish: there was.

Mr. $oyle: &+Melveny is disputing what it #eans.

Ms. (ahan: not pertaining to Mr. *ac%son"s health. That"s the proble# with this

hypothetical, your honor.

*udge: was there such an e#ail1 !"# loo%ing at the plaintiffs.

Mr. 'os%off: yes, your honor.

Mr. Panish: there was an e#ail.

*udge: concerning Mr. *ac%son"s health1

Mr. $oyle: yes.

Mr. Panish: they say, no. let"s just say there was an e#ail. =ow is that1

Mr. 'os%off: we"ll ta%e out the words concerning health.

*udge: you have a copy of it1

Ms. Stebbins: ! do.

*udge: let"s see it.

Mr. Putna#: the top portion, this is the e#ail DindicatingE.

Mr. Panish: #ay we see it1

Ms. Stebbins: doesn"t relate to health. D(ounsel conferred sotto voce.E

Mr. 'os%off: we"re not going to reach an agree#ent on that, so we"ll just withdraw it. So

for now ... later on the jury can decide whether the e#ail pertained to health or didn"t

pertain to health.

*udge: than% you.

Q. So #ets ... 'ust $or no, doctor, I@d #"*e you to "thdra the state(ent that there as an e(a"#a)out hea#th $ro( A#"$ San*ey on ... hat as the date


24/135

Mr. $oyle: *une Cth. >oesn"t #atter.

Mr. Panish: we"re withdrawing it. >oesn"t #atter.

Mr. 'os%off: &%, /ithdrawn. ! have to tell hi# what not to consider.

Q. O*, Are you ready

A. -es.

Q. O*, No, I ant to ta#* a)out the rest o$ that #on& uest"on that I had, and the (ater"a#s, suchas the other e(a"#s that are re$#ected "n the uest"on, and the other e!"dence as a##uded to "n theuest"onF o*ay

A. -es.

Q. I ant to as* you, s"r ha!e you ... as %art o$ your %re%arat"on to )e an e4%ert "tness "n th"scase, ha!e you re!"eed records and de%os"t"ons and (ed"ca# records $a"r#y e4tens"!e#y

A. -es, I ha!e.

Q. /o (uch t"(e ha!e you actua##y s%ent re!"e"n& records "n th"s case

A. I!e s%ent a)out a ha#$ a day a ee* s"nce I as reta"ned at the )e&"nn"n& o$ January.

Q. A)out a ha#$ a day a ee* s"nce the )e&"nn"n& o$ January

A. -es.

Q. And "s there a restr"ct"on $or you "n your or* at /ar!ard as to ho (uch t"(e you can s%endconsu#t"n&

A. -es. I can on#y s%end one day a ee* or*"n& on outs"de act"!"t"es.

Q. O*, So th"s "s cons"dered an outs"de act"!"ty

A. +h"s ou#d )e.

Q. And youre &o"n& to ha!e to (a*e an a%o#o&y to /ar!ard $or )e"n& here today.

A. Its an a!era&e o!er the year.

Q. And you!e s%ent ha#$ o$ that day or*"n& on th"s case re!"e"n& docu(ents, "s that correct,on the records


25/135


26/135

A. Do you ant (e to "nc#ude A%r"#, >ay and June

Q. -es. A%r"#, >ay and June.

)@A objection: calls for speculation.

*udge: based on the docu#ents1

Mr. 'os%off: the docu#ents.

*udge: overruled.

Mr. 'os%off: the order slips.

*udge: overruled. You #ay answer.

>r. (Beisler: he ordered #ore than four gallons of propofol.

Q. O*, No...

A. And #et (e 'ust ... yeah, O*,

Q. And te## (e hat $our &a##ons o$ %ro%o$o#, hat does that (ean "n ter(s o$ "ts use Or ho(uch "s that "n ter(s o$ "ts use

)@A objection: lac%s foundation.

>r. (Beisler: it"s a stupendous a#ount.

*udge: you"re going to need so#e foundation for that. Sustained.

Q. Are you $a("#"ar "th the dosa&es that are used "n %ro%o$o#

A. -es. :or e4a(%#e, $or an "nduct"on, one ("&ht ha!e a )o#us ad("n"strat"on o$ 2 ccs or 0 ccs o$%ro%o$o#.

Q. O*, And hat "s the )as"s $or your *no#ed&e a)out the %ro%o$o# a(ounts and "ts usa&e

A. e##, the %ro%o$o# "n th"s %art"cu#ar the %ro%o$o# that as ordered )y Dr. >urray "s 1("##"&ra(s %er cc.


27/135

)@A objection: #ove to stri%e as nonresponsive. *udge: it is nonresponsive.

Q. O*, hat "s your )as"s $or your *no#ed&e a)out the dosa&e $or %ro%o$o#

A. ?esearch art"c#es and %u)#"cat"ons, re!"e art"c#es.

Q. So that...

A. In the (ed"ca# #"terature.

Q. +he (ed"ca# #"terature. Is th"s so(eth"n& that ... and "s th"s standard (ed"ca# #"terature $ro(%eer6re!"eed 'ourna#s

A. -es.

Q. And "s "t cons"dered author"tat"!e 'ourna#s and te4ts that you &et your "n$or(at"on $ro(

A. -es.

Q. So hat "s ... hat are the doses ... $"rst te## (e a)out the con!ers"on $ro( the 8.1 &a##ons, andthen you started ta#*"n& a)out other un"ts o$ (easure, and 'ust e4%#a"n those con!ers"ons to (e$"rst.

A. So the $our &a##ons "s a stu%endous a(ount o$ %ro%o$o#. I$ you ant to con!ert "t "nto #"ters, "tou#d )e 1< 1H2 #"ters, h"ch (eans "t "s 1


28/135


29/135

Q. O*, -ou sa"d that th"s as tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on. No, ear#"er you to#d us theres a d"$$erence)eteen %art"a# s#ee% de%r"!at"on and tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on. Just re("nd us 'ust one (ore t"(ehat that d"$$erence "s.

A. e##, $or e4a(%#e, "n chron"c %art"a# s#ee% #oss, hen youre &ett"n& $our or $"!e hours o$ s#ee%

%er n"&ht, you actua##y ... your a%%et"te "ncreases, and you &a"n e"&ht. hereas the e!"dencethat I %resented yesterday "nd"cates that "th tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on, o!er ee*s, hat actua##yha%%ens "s a #oss o$ e"&ht and a ast"n& and an "na)"#"ty to ther(a# re&u#ate. +he )odyte(%erature &oes don. +he ... theres con$us"on and d"$$"cu#ty "th )a#ance that one ou#de4%ect "th tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on. D"$$"cu#ty "th (e(ory. +he sy(%to( o$ %arano"a "th tota#s#ee% de%r"!at"on, and an4"ety. And the conste##at"on o$ sy(%to(s are cons"stent "th one I@d"(a&"ne ou#d occur "th tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on.

Q. Do you ha!e an o%"n"on hether or not the sy(%to(s you 'ust rec"ted to us "n >"chae#Jac*son ere caused )y tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on

A. -es, I do.

Q. And hat "s that o%"n"on

A. I )e#"e!e that that conste##at"on o$ sy(%to(s as (ore %ro)a)#y than not "nduced )y tota#s#ee% de%r"!at"on o!er the %reced"n& chron"c %er"od.

Q. And do you ha!e ... do you *no o$ any a&ent that can cause tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on

A. As I test"$"ed yesterday, hen one uses %ro%o$o# to "nduce a dru&6"nduced co(a, "t d"ss"%atesthe dr"!e $or s#ee% "thout (eet"n& any o$ the )"o#o&"ca# needs $or s#ee%F there)y creat"n& a(ass"!e s#ee% de$"c"ency "n an "nd"!"dua# ho ou#d )e e4%osed to th"s on a re&u#ar )as"s $or achron"c %er"od o$ t"(e. And that "s hat I )e#"e!e ha%%ened "n th"s case to >r. Jac*son.

Q. O*, hat "s "t ... so, a&a"n, re%eat a&a"n hat "s "t that you )e#"e!e ha%%ened "n th"s case

A. +hat the chron"c e4%osure to %ro%o$o# as a ... "nduc"n& ... dru&6"nduced co(a #ed to ad"ss"%at"on o$ h"s s#ee% dr"!e "thout sat"s$y"n& any o$ h"s s#ee% needF there)y #ead"n& to a(ass"!e s#ee% de$"c"ency "th a## o$ "ts attendant ad!erse conseuences.

Q. And do you )e#"e!e that he d"d ha!e tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on

A. -es.

Q. And )ased u%on the stud"es that you!e to#d us ear#"er ... you!e to#d us a)out hat ha%%ens "nrats that ha!e tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on, and I th"n* you sa"d they u#t"(ate#y d"ed.

A. +hats correct.


30/135

Q. And con!ert"n& those data ... o)!"ous#y, rats are s(a##er than hu(ans. =ut con!ert"n& that tohu(ans, can you con!ert those data to hu(ans, $"rst o$ a##...

A. e##...

Q. In ter(s o$ the t"(es

A. A## o$ the an"(a#s that ha!e )een stud"ed ho ha!e )een de%r"!ed o$ s#ee% tota##y u#t"(ate#yd"e. In the rats, ro$essor ?echtscha$$en, ho d"d those stud"es, atte(%ted to try to #oo* at!ar"ous ays one ("&ht co(%are th"s data $ro( rats to hu(ans. ?ats s#ee% (uch (ore thanhu(ans do on a da"#y )as"s, and they ... so you can #oo* at the a(ount o$ s#ee% they ty%"ca##y &et%er day, and the a(ount o$ s#ee% e ty%"ca##y &et %er day, and see ho "n the three ee*s "t ta*es$or the rats to d"e, co(%are "t "th the a(ount o$ t"(e one ("&ht e4%ect "th hu(ans. O)!"ous#y,no one "s &o"n& to do th"s e4%er"(ent "n a hu(an. =ut us"n& !ar"ous (etr"cs, e"ther re#ated to)ody e"&ht or a(ounts o$ s#ee% that they &et, he su&&ested that so(eth"n& on the order o$ days, de%end"n& on h"ch (etr"c ou#d )e hat "t ou#d ta*e "n

A. /u(an to reach that sa(e #e!e# o$ de&radat"on.

Q. hen you say that same level of degradation, "t ou#d ta*e days $or hat :or a hu(anto...

A. :or a hu(an to rece"!e the sa(e #e!e# o$ "(%act that a rat reaches "n three ee*s.

Q. And hat ha%%ens to a rat "n three ee*s

A. It d"es, on a!era&e.

Q. So youre say"n& that "$ "ts co(%ared on#y to hu(ans, hu(ans ou#d d"e days $ro( thattota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on

A. e##, so(eth"n& on the order o$...

Q. "de ran&e

A. ?"&ht, so(eth"n& on the order o$ ; days.

Q. ; days O*, No, ou#d you 'ust te## (e ... and I *no th"s "s not &o"n& to )e a co(%#eterec"tat"on, )ut hat "n %art"cu#ar ere the "te(s o$ e!"dence that you noted that su%%ort youro%"n"on that th"s as caused )y co(%#ete s#ee% de%r"!at"on ... that as caused )y co(%#ete s#ee%de%r"!at"on

)@A objection: vague as to what was caused. =e said this was caused.


31/135

*udge: &%, Sustained. ). ;ittle vague.

>r. (Beisler: #ay ! clarify #y previous answer, while you"re discussing that1

Q. -es.

A. So hether "t ou#d ta*e ; days, 1 days, 1"chae# as su$$er"n& $ro( co(%#ete s#ee% de%r"!at"on

A. As I read the record, and as I read throu&h and )rou&ht to the attent"on o$ attorney ?e"##y(any o$ the e(a"#s that you (ent"oned yesterday, I as struc* )y the $act that they a## e4h")"tedsy(%to(s that I ou#d ha!e e4%ected $ro( tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on. And so the descr"%t"ons ...and I (ust say, that the descr"%t"ons $ro( the &rou% o$ a## d"$$erent %eo%#e, %utt"n& to&ether th"s

conste##at"on o$ sy(%to(s, ere recorded "n these e(a"#s (ore (et"cu#ous#y than one ("&hte4%ect $ro( a sc"ent"st do"n& an o)ser!at"on, )ecause they ere record"n& a## o$ the sy(%to(sthat e ou#d e4%ect. +hey ere record"n& d"$$"cu#t"es "th )a#ance, they ere record"n& thed"$$"cu#t"es, you *no, that ... )ecause "n the an"(a# stud"es, e!en thou&h they eat (ore, theyactua##y #ose e"&ht "th tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on. And so e ha!e the s"tuat"on "n h"ch %eo%#eare re%ort"n& state(ents #"*e o!er the %ast e"&ht ee*s, I ha!e seen >r. Jac*son deter"orate%hys"ca##y )e$ore (y !ery eyes, #os"n& e"&ht, ha!"n& ... and then the (enta# hea#th o)ser!at"onsa)out ... that c#ear#y re$er to h"s (e(ory. +hat he )e&an re%eat"n& h"(se#$, and %eo%#e re%eatthe(se#!es hen they dont re(e()er hat they 'ust sa"d, or hat they ha!e sa"d 1< ("nutesear#"er. And the astound"n& o)ser!at"ons that he cou#d not e!en re(e()er the ords to h"s onson&s.

Q. hy d"d that sur%r"se you

A. +hat o$ the hundreds o$ ("##"ons or )"##"ons o$ %eo%#e, as the (ost success$u# %er$or(er o$ a##t"(e, to read that he cou#d not re(e()er the ords to h"s on son&s as shoc*"n&. And "t"nd"cated to (e the %ro$ound "(%act that th"s s#ee% de%r"!at"on as ha!"n& on h"s (e(ory. +he$act that he as )eco("n& %arano"dF that h"s ... h"ch "s so(eth"n& that "s ... ou#d )e cons"stent"th an e$$ect that e ou#d e4%ect $ro( s#ee% de%r"!at"on. I!e a#ready (ent"oned the e"&ht#oss. +he $act that he as %utt"n& on #ayers o$ c#oth"n& "n a roo( that e!eryone e#se as $ee#"n"*e "t as ar(. /"s )ody as !ery co#d, )ecause the an"(a#s cant de$end the"r )odyte(%erature and the"r )ody te(%erature )e&"ns to dro%. +hat as !ery cons"stent "th one ... "thhat one ("&ht ha!e e4%ected. +he $act that he as s#o at &ra))"n& ho#d o$ the or*, as >r.Orte&a "nd"cated. And >r. Orte&a as say"n&, he needs guidance on nourishment)ecause heas c#ear#y a#so see"n& h"( #os"n& e"&ht. +he $act that *a" chase, h"s che$, had you *no, she#e$t at one "nter!a# and then ca(e )ac* and sa that he had asted aay dur"n& the t"(e that sheas &one. And the cons"stency across the d"$$erent o)ser!ers, $ro( h"s ha"rdresser, to h"s che$, toh"s ... the concert %er$or(ers, to >r. Orte&a. And to the e(a"# trouble at the frontsay"n& ... andthe state(ents $ro( %eo%#e say"n& that he as do"n& !ery e## on#y a cou%#e o$ (onths ear#"er


32/135

and then as deter"orat"n&. +he e(a"# $ro( >r. =u&9 say"n&, he's not being a drama queen, )ut>r. Jac*son as sent ho(e $ro( the rehearsa# so he ou#dnt e()arrass h"(se#$. +hat the ... andone o$ the ... and I &uess there as an e(a"# $ro( =u&9 to the CEO o$ AEG L"!e, >r. h"##"%sthat I ha!e atched h"( deter"orate "n $ront o$ (y on eyes "n the #ast e"&ht ee*s. /e asdo"n& (u#t"%#e 07 turns, and "$ he tr"ed that, he ou#d $a## on h"s ass. e cou#dnt #et h"( do

th"s. And $ro( >r. Orte&a to the CEO o$ AEG L"!e, >r. h"##"%sI will do what I can to help.M concern is that the artist can't rise to the occasion. !e's wea"# fatigued# chills# rambling#obsessive# he's lost more weight. the %eo%#e sa"d "n the choreo&ra%hy stud"o, the choreo&ra%her,that I )e#"e!e e4h")"t 2; $ro( >r. Orte&a to >r. h"##"%s, that he as aa"t"n& ... hes at ho(eaa"t"n& a ca## and "nstruct"ons, and he a&a"n rec"tes the cont"nued %hys"ca# ea*en"n&, thedee%en"n& %arano"a, the an4"ety, o)sess"!e6#"*e )eha!"or, the ea*, trou)#ed state. I$ he a##oedh"( on sta&e, he cou#d ha!e hurt h"(se#$. +he e(a"# $ro( >r. ayne say"n& that he had a hardt"(e %"c*"n& u% the (ater"a# and as not coherentF that he had as*ed $or a te#e%ro(%ter $or h"son son&s. I (ean, these ... as I sa"d, the (et"cu#ous deta"#"n& o$ h"s deter"orat"on here as )oth%ro$ound and sad to (e. >s. :aye test"$y"n& that he #oo*ed s*e#eta# and s"c*. So ... $here theDoctor became tearful# cho"ed up%

Q. Is there any uest"on "n your ("nd...

A. No.

Q. hat caused that

A. No.

Q. Doctor, yesterday hen e had a d"scuss"on o$ s#ee% d"sorders ... #et (e (o!e "nto a #"tt#ed"$$erent sect"on here ... and you ta#*ed a)out there are d"$$erent ty%es o$ s#ee% d"sorders D"dyou re!"e the records concern"n& >"chae# Jac*son@s h"story o$ s#ee% d"sorders

A. -es, I d"d.

Q. And )ased u%on the records, can you te## (e hat "t "s ... d"d he ha!e a s#ee% d"sorder anddescr")e $or us hat *"nd o$ s#ee% d"sorder you )e#"e!e he had. Or *"nds.

A. -es. I )e#"e!e >r. Jac*son had a ... had a s#ee% d"sorder and "t as a chron"c s#ee% d"sorder. AsI (ent"oned, I )e#"e!e, yesterday "n (y test"(ony, there are (any d"$$erent ty%es o$ "nso(n"a,and so(e o$ the ty%es ... and "nso(n"a can )e )oth %r"(ary and secondary. And >r. Jac*sone4h")"ted so(e o$ the sy(%to(s. O$ course, I ne!er e4a("ned >r. Jac*son, )ut he e4h")"ted(any o$ the sy(%to(s that are assoc"ated "th those d"$$erent ty%es o$ "nso(n"a. So, $ore4a(%#e, %sycho%hys"o#o&"ca# "nso(n"a. /e e4h")"ted the sy(%to(s o$ hy%erarousa# and theo!erconcern a)out ho h"s %er$or(ance ou#d )e a$$ected )y the #oss o$ s#ee%. I (ean, I@( notsure "t as o!erconcern...

Q. E4%#a"n that.


33/135

A. I( not sure "t as o!erconcern, )ut a &reat dea# o$ concern a)out the "(%act o$ h"s nots#ee%"n& on h"s a)"#"ty to %er$or( the ne4t day.

)@A objection: hearsay. *udge: overruled.

Q. O*, Just e4%#a"n to us I ant you to 'ust s#o don a second, and %#ease e4%#a"n to us that%art"cu#ar state(ent that you (ade, and hat the "(%act o$ th"s "s to your o%"n"on.

A. So I th"n* >r. Jac*son as %ro)a)#y, on a chron"c )as"s, su$$er"n& $ro( at #east a ("#d de&reeo$ %r"(ary "nso(n"a assoc"ated "th %sycho%hys"o#o&"ca# "nso(n"a.

Q. sycho%hys"o#o&"ca#

A. -es. /e a#so e4h")"ted c#ass"c sy(%to(s o$ hat I ca## ad'ust(ent s#ee% d"sorder, yesterday,h"ch "s hen you ha!e d"$$"cu#ty ... hen you ha!e %art"cu#ar s#ee% d"$$"cu#ty assoc"ated "th a%art"cu#ar stressor. In the case o$ >r. Jac*son, "t as d"$$"cu#ty s#ee%"n& assoc"ated "th )e"n& on

tour. And theres e!"dence "n the record that he ou#d re%ort that so(et"(es he cou#dnt s#ee% ata## the n"&ht a$ter %er$or("n& and "n so(e cases...

)@A objection: hearsay.

>r. (Beisler: he can"t sleep...

*udge: overruled.

>r. (Beisler: not only that night, but on a subseuent night. )nd whether that represented

so#e ele#ent of sleep state perceptions, or the parado0ical inso#nia, ! don"t %now. !n other

words, he #ay have slept a little bit #ore than he thought, but fro# his point of view, he

couldn"t sleep well when he was on tour. )nd then this produced an0iety related to his sleep

and in association with being on tour that #ade hi# very concerned about that i#pact.

There"s also evidence of poor sleep hygiene. There"s evidence in the record that he %ept the

lights on in his bedroo#, both during the dayti#e, as well as at nightti#e9 that he %ept the

#usic on 4C hours a day in his house9 that ... we saw in the photographs of his roo# that

there was a >I> player on his bed, and there were reports in the testi#ony, for e0a#ple,

fro# nurse lee in the deposition that ! read, that he reported to her that he played the >I>

at night when he was atte#pting to sleep. /e saw the evidence in the record that, for

e0a#ple, on the night that he died, that >r. Murray was sitting ne0t to hi# #a%ing

telephone calls...

)@A objection: the source of that evidence, your honor, we discussed at sidebar yesterday.

*udge: &%, Sustained. Sustained.


34/135

Q. Just ta*e that %art out.

A. O*, So theres e!"dence o$, a#so, o$ "rre&u#ar schedu#es o$ hen he ou#d &o to s#ee% anda*e u%. So theres (u#t"%#e #"nes o$ e!"dence that there as %oor s#ee% hy&"ene as e##. So thoseou#d a## )e the areas o$ %r"(ary "nso(n"a that he shoed c#ass"c sy(%to(s o$ d"$$erent ty%es o$

%r"(ary "nso(n"a. In add"t"on, theres e!"dence "n the record that "ts secondary to %a"n, $ore4a(%#e. At t"(es he had )ac* %a"nF at t"(es he had %a"n $ro( the o%erat"ons and theconstr"ct"ons assoc"ated "th h"s sca#% secondary to the se!ere )urn that he rece"!ed hen he as$"#("n& a e%s" co((erc"a#.+here "s e!"dence "n the record that he (ay ha!e had "nso(n"a secondary to ... e##, therese!"dence "n the record that he as an4"ous, he e4h")"ted an4"ety, so he cou#d ha!e had "nso(n"asecondary to an4"ety. So there "s e!"dence that he, a#so, at t"(es, had "nso(n"a that ou#d )esecondary to so(e other (ed"ca# cond"t"on.

Q. Is there any %art"cu#ar %er"ods o$ t"(e, )ased on your re!"e o$ the record, that >"chae#su$$ered %art"cu#ar#y se!ere "nso(n"a

A. +he e!"dence "n the record "nd"cates that h"s "nso(n"a )eca(e se!ere hen he as on tour or%re%ar"n& to &o on tour. +he e!"dence "n the record "nd"cates that "n )eteen the tours, s#ee% asnot a %ree("nent "ssue $or h"(, so he as not d"sa)#ed )y "nso(n"a "n the years and "nter!a#s)eteen the tours. It as rea##y the %ro)#e( )eca(e acute "n assoc"at"on "th these tours.

Q. And "s there e!"dence "n the record "$ >"chae# Jac*son e!er had an a%%ro%r"ate or*u% $or h"ss#ee% d"sorder )y any doctor

)@A objection: calls for speculation.

>r. (Beisler: there is no...

*udge: overruled. You #ay answer on the #edical records that you reviewed.

>r. (Beisler: than% you. There is no evidence in the volu#inous #edical records that !

reviewed that Mr. *ac%son ever received an appropriate diagnostic evaluation for sleep

disorders.

Q. And do you ha!e an o%"n"on, to a reasona)#e (ed"ca# %ro)a)"#"ty, "$ >"chae# Jac*son had )eena%%ro%r"ate#y d"a&nosed and treated $or h"s s#ee% d"sorder, hether h"s s#ee% %ro)#e( ou#d ha!e%re!ented h"( $ro( cont"nu"n& on the tour

)@A objection: that"s the subject of a #otion.

Mr. Panish: ! don"t thin% so.


35/135

Ms. (ahan: !+# sorry. ! withdraw that. That"s fine.

*udge: all right. You #ay answer.

>r. (Beisler: could you repeat the uestion1

Q. -es. Do you ha!e an o%"n"on, to a reasona)#e (ed"ca# %ro)a)"#"ty, "$ >"chae# Jac*son had)een a%%ro%r"ate#y d"a&nosed and treated $or h"s s#ee% d"sorder, hether h"s s#ee% %ro)#e(sou#d ha!e %re!ented h"( $ro( cont"nu"n& "th the tour

A. I )e#"e!e that "$ >"chae# Jac*son ere a%%ro%r"ate#y d"a&nosed and treated $or h"s s#ee%d"sorder, then h"s s#ee% d"sorder ou#d no #on&er ha!e "nter$ered "th h"s a)"#"ty to %er$or( andto tour.

Q. Do you ha!e an o%"n"on, )ased on a reasona)#e (ed"ca# %ro)a)"#"ty, "n the #on& ter(, "$ thes#ee% d"sorder as treata)#e

A. -es. I )e#"e!e that "$ h"s s#ee% d"sorder had )een a%%ro%r"ate#y d"a&nosed and treated, that heou#d ha!e )een a)#e to co(%#ete not on#y th"s tour, )ut %er$or( $or (any years to co(e.

Q. Last uest"on I ha!e. Do you )e#"e!e Dr. Conrad >urray as $"t and co(%etent to treat h"(

*udge: for a sleep disorder9 correct1 &%,

Q. :or a s#ee% d"sorder.

A. Dr. Conrad >urray as c#ear#y not $"t or co(%etent to d"a&nose or treat >r. Jac*sons s#ee%d"sorder.

Mr. 'os%off: ! have no further uestions.

*udge: &%, (ross8e0a#ination.

(ross8e0a#ination by Ms. (ahan

Q. Good (orn"n&, Dr. C9e"s#er.

A. Good (orn"n&, attorney cahan.

Q. So I too* your de%os"t"on on A%r"# th o$ th"s year


36/135

A. -es. I )e#"e!e "t as a Sunday, asnt "t

Q. I )e#"e!e so. And at your de%os"t"on, you to#d (e that you ere test"$y"n& to a## o$ youressent"a# o%"n"ons that you had $or(u#ated "n th"s caseF correct

A. I dont *no "$ I used the ord all, )ut I d"d test"$y that I as %ro!"d"n& a## the o%"n"ons youas*ed (e a)out.

Q. I( ha!"n& trou)#e hear"n& you. I( sorry.

A. I test"$"ed to a## o$ the o%"n"ons you as*ed (e a)out.

Ms. (ahan: and, pa#, can you pull up page - of the deposition, line 5, to page , line 41

>r. (Beisler: #ay ! please have a copy of #y deposition if you"re going to as% #e about it1!s that a reasonable reuest1

*udge: sure. You can loo% at it.

Mr. Panish: which page1

Mr. 'os%off: page -.

Ms. (ahan: #ay ! approach, your honor1

*udge: do you have a copy, because ! can give hi# #ine1

Ms. (ahan: ! do.

*udge: ! can give hi# #ine.

>r. (Beisler: than% you, your honor.

Mr. Panish: which line1

Ms. (ahan: page -, line 5, to page , line .

Mr. Panish: &%,

Ms. (ahan: is that o%ay to put up1

Mr. Panish: sure.


37/135

Q. And I@## read the uest"on, "$ you can read the anser, %#ease. Are the essent"a# o%"n"ons youre"ntend"n& to o$$er at tr"a#, to the e4tent you!e $or(ed the( toDate, re$#ected "n e4h")"t 1 -ou can read the anser.

A. Oh, yes. I d"d (y )est to art"cu#ate those, )ut &"!en the t"(e %ressure I as under, I d"d a#so

(ent"on that I reser!e the r"&ht, as I re!"eed the add"t"ona# (ater"a#s, as e## as re$#ected onhat I had %ut to&ether, to add th"n&s, )ut I@( not o("tt"n& anyth"n& I@( aare o$.

Q. Not o("tt"n& anyth"n& youre aare o$F correct

A. -es, )ut as I sa"d here...

Q. Just yes or no, s"r. Is that correct, "s that hat you sa"d

A. I 'ust read hat I@!e sa"d.

Q. +han* you.

A. =ut then you su((ar"9ed "t "n a ay that d"dnt re$#ect hat I sa"d.

Q. And e4h")"t 1 "n your de%os"t"on as a r"tten re%ort that you %re%aredF correct

A. -es. >ay I %#ease ha!e a co%y o$ that

Q. I "## "$ and hen e ta#* a)out the re%ort.

A. Oh, I@( sorry. I thou&ht thats hat you ere 'ust say"n&.

Q. -ou %re%ared a r"tten re%ort and &a!e "t to (e at your de%os"t"onF correct

A. I d"d.

Q. And that had a## o$ your essent"a# o%"n"ons that you had $or(u#ated to date as o$ A%r"# th o$th"s yearF correct

A. +hats correct.

Q. And as o$ that t"(e, you had )een or*"n& on th"s case $or three (onths

A. +hats correct.

Q. A)out ha#$ a day a ee*, you sa"d

A. -es. It as ... the de%os"t"on as on A%r"# th. I )e&an or*"n& at the )e&"nn"n& o$ January.


38/135

Q. I( rea##y sorry, )ut I@( st"## ha!"n& trou)#e hear"n& you. I dont *no "$ you can (o!e the("c a #"tt#e c#oser.

A. -es. It as a)out three (onths.

Q. O*, And at that t"(e you e4%ressed an o%"n"on that "t as (ore %ro)a)#e than not, "n your!"e, that >r. Jac*son had so(e *"nd o$ s#ee% d"sorder, )ut you cou#dnt say hatF?"&ht

A. +hats correct.

Q. =ut today you 'ust to#d us that you!e s"nce )een a)#e to $"&ure out that you th"n* that >r.Jac*son d"d ha!e a nu()er o$ d"$$erent ty%es o$ "nso(n"aF r"&ht

A. No.

Q. O*, hat a( I &ett"n& ron& there I( not try"n& to ("sstate your test"(ony.

A. No, I understand. And e can #oo* "t u%. I cant $"nd the e4act %a&e. =ut I sa"d dur"n& (yde%os"t"on that he d"d ha!e so(e ty%e o$ "nso(n"a. e ta#*ed a)out "nso(n"a "n (y de%os"t"on. Isa"d, "n &enera#, 'ust as I sa"d today, that I ne!er e4a("ned >r. Jac*son. So hat I sa"d today asthat he had the sy(%to(s o$ (any o$ those d"$$erent s#ee% d"sorders. So as I sa"d to you "n thede%os"t"on, s"nce I ne!er e4a("ned >r. Jac*son, I cant %resu(e to *no e4act#y hat he had.=ut I d"d re!"e "th you dur"n& the de%os"t"on the sy(%to(s o$ "nso(n"a, and I sa"d that he(ore %ro)a)#y than not su$$ered $ro( "nso(n"a, as I reco##ect. =ut I can #oo* that u% "$ you &"!e(e a (o(ent.Inso(n"a ... theres an ent"re co#u(n o$ re$erences to the ord insomnia"n the "nde4 o$ (yde%os"t"on.

Q. ?"&htF )ut hat you sa"d "n your de%os"t"on, and hat as sa"d "n your re%ort that you &a!e(e at your de%os"t"on )ac* "n A%r"#, as thatMr. &ac"son more probabl than not sufferedfrom a chronic sleep disorder of un"nown tpe that was eacerbated during concert toursF "sthat correct

A. +hats correct. And I sa"d "t as un*non )ecause there are (any d"$$erent ty%es, as Iart"cu#ated today, o$ "nso(n"a. And, you *no, as I sa"d yesterday, "nso(n"a can a#so )e caused)y (ed"cat"on ... the ty%e o$ "nso(n"a that "s the %oor s#ee% hy&"ene cou#d )e due to e4cess"!eca$$e"ne useF cou#d )e due to "thdraa# $ro( dru&s #"*e De(ero#F cou#d )e ... so $or (e to te##you on th"s %art"cu#ar n"&ht hat as caus"n& h"s "nso(n"a, I cant do that.

Q. O*,

A. =ut he had, %ro)a)#y, (u#t"%#e d"$$erent ty%es o$ "nso(n"a. =ut to s%ec"$y a d"a&nos"s "thout o$ so(eone ho "s no #on&er "th us, on a %art"cu#ar n"&ht, "s not %oss")#e.

Q. ?"&ht. So you!e )eco(e (ore sure that he had had "nso(n"a s"nce your de%os"t"onF r"&ht


39/135

A. I sa"d "n (y de%os"t"on that he su$$ered $ro( a s#ee% d"sorder. +here are ;< o$ the(. I sa"d Icant te## h"ch ty%e...

Q. And hat you sa"d...

A. "th certa"nty, )ut certa"n#y he su$$ered $ro( "nso(n"a.

Q. hat you sa"d at your de%os"t"on, s"r, and your re%ort ... and e## %u## u% a co%y o$ that re%ortthat e can &"!e to you. =ut hat you sa"d there "s thatMr. Michael &ac"son# more probablthan not# suffered from a chronic sleep disorder of un"nown tpe F correct Just ta#*ed a)outthat.

A. -es.

Q. O*, And no youre say"n& he had "nso(n"aF correct So you!e )eco(e (ore certa"n o$ your

d"a&nos"s s"nce your de%os"t"on

A. I d"d no say that he had "nso(n"aF I a#so sa"d that he had "nso(n"a dur"n& (y de%os"t"on.

Q. So you dont th"n* theres a chan&e )eteen more probabl than not he had a chronic sleepdisorderandes# he had insomnia# and there are different tpes of insomnia

A. +hat state(ent you *ee% re%eat"n& "s not the on#y state(ent I (ade dur"n& (y de%os"t"on. So"thout re!"e"n& (y de%os"t"on "n "ts ent"rety, h"ch I a( u"te certa"n I d"scussed "nso(n"a ...$"rst o$ a##, #"*e I sa"d, theres an ent"re co#u(n o$ re$erences to the ord "nso(n"a "n (yde%os"t"on. So I th"n* that "ts !ery un#"*e#y that I d"d not re$er to >r. Jac*sons "nso(n"a "n (yde%os"t"on.

Q. I( not say"n& ... I@( sorry. >ay)e I@( not...

A. -oure "(%#y"n& that I ne!er sa"d that h"ch I sudden#y ha!e d"sco!ered, as I s"t here today,that he had "nso(n"a and that I d"d not *no that "n A%r"#. And thats s"(%#y not true.

Q. O*, I th"n* I *no here the con$us"on "s. Lets see "$ e can a#* throu&h th"s. At yourde%os"t"on, ou#d you a&ree "th (e that you sa"d, (ore than


40/135

Q. O*, And 'ust so ere c#ear, youre not say"n& that >"chae# Jac*son had "nso(n"a o$ any ty%etodayF you cant d"a&nos"s thatF correct Just that he had sy(%to(s that are cons"stent "th"nso(n"a

A. I( u"te certa"n he had, as I sa"d to you )e$ore. I th"n* that the e!"dence "nd"cates that (ore%ro)a)#y than not he su$$ered $ro( a chron"c s#ee% d"sorder.

Q. O*,

A. +hat chron"c s#ee% d"sorder "s so(e ty%e o$ "nso(n"a. /e had sy(%to(s o$ (u#t"%#e d"$$erentty%es o$ "nso(n"a. I cant te## you hether "t as )ecause o$ the cans o$ red )u## that ere "n h"s)edroo(, hether "t as the #"&hts on "n h"s )edroo(, hether "t as the (us"c %#ay"n&cont"nuous#y. I cant te## you h"ch ty%e. In a## %ro)a)"#"ty, "t as the con$#uence o$ a## o$ thesed"$$erent $actors. And he (ay ha!e had h"s on )rand o$ "nso(n"a...

Q. O*, So...

A. h"ch as "n!o#!"n& (u#t"%#e d"$$erent ty%es o$ "nso(n"a.

Q. Got "t. I th"n* I@( $o##o"n& you no. I 'ust ant to (a*e sure that "ts c#ear, )ecause I &otcon$used, and I ant to (a*e sure "ts c#ear $or other %eo%#e. I dont *no. +hey (ay )e$o##o"n& )etter than (e. So 'ust to su((ar"9e, your o%"n"on "s that you cant render a d"a&nos"so$ >r. >"chae# Jac*son@s s#ee% "ssues )ecause you ne!er sa h"( and treated h"(F correct

A. +hats correct.

Q. And "n $act, you dont d"a&nose anyone )ecause youre not a %ract"c"n& %hys"c"anF correct

A. +hat "s correct.

Q. -ou dont ha!e a (ed"ca# #"cense

A. +hats correct.

Q. -ou dont ha!e a DEA L"censeF you cant %rescr")e (ed"cat"on

A. +hats correct.

Q. And as you sa"d, hene!er you or* "th %at"ents, hether they )e s%orts tea(s orastronauts, youre a#ays or*"n& "th a #"censed %hys"c"an, r"&ht, hene!er there "s a d"a&nos"s)e"n& rendered


41/135

A. ?"&ht hen I@( or*"n&, $or e4a(%#e, on a ... "th the astronauts, I dont necessar"#y ha!ea #"censed %hys"c"an "th (e. =ut "$ I ere treat"n& a s#ee% d"sorder or ... $"rst o$ a##, I ou#dnttreat a s#ee% d"sorder. I ou#d a#ays ha!e a #"censed %hys"c"an "th (e treat"n& a s#ee% d"sorder.

Q. ?"&ht So $or that reason, and )ecause you ne!er sa >r. Jac*son "n %erson, ne!er (et h"(,

ne!er e!a#uated h"(, and the records arent co(%#ete, you cant render a de$"n"t"!e d"a&nos"sFcorrect

A. It ou#d )e "na%%ro%r"ate $or any %hys"c"an to render a de$"n"t"!e d"a&nos"s o$ so(eone ho "sdeceased, essent"a##y, s"nce "nso(n"a "s, at "ts core, a co(%#a"nt. And so e ha!e e4tens"!ee!"dence "n the record that >r. Jac*son had d"$$"cu#ty s#ee%"n&. And that "s hy, "n (yde%os"t"on, I sa"d that he had a s#ee% d"sorder. S%ec"$y"n& h"ch ty%e, or co()"nat"on o$ ty%es,and h"ch ty%e as (ost "(%ortant, "s d"$$"cu#t to do. =ut e!en "n (y de%os"t"on, and "n (yo%"n"ons, I "nd"cated that the *ey "ssue "n th"s case "s that h"s "nso(n"a, h"s s#ee% d"sorder, as&reat#y e4acer)ated hen he as on tour or %re%ar"n& $or tours. And I th"n* that that "s the (ost"(%ortant ta*e6ho(e (essa&e $ro( th"s ... $ro( (y e!a#uat"on o$ the record, "s that hate!er

s#ee% d"sorder or d"sorders that he had, ere not d"sa)#"n& "n )eteen. And thats hy I ca##edthe( today rather ("#d hen he as not "n the tour (ode or tour6%re%arat"on (ode. It asd"sa)#"n& to h"( hen he as e"ther on tour or %re%ar"n& to &o on tour.

Q. O*, And e## &et )ac* to that.

A. +hats hat I s%ec"$"ca##y sa"d "n (y de%os"t"on and "n (y o%"n"ons that I %ro!"ded to you atthe de%os"t"on.

Q. O*, And e## co(e )ac* to that. So #ets 'ust ta#* a )"t a)out the records that you re!"eed "nth"s case. Do you *no hat a dro%)o4 "s

A. I do.

Q. hat "s that, $or those o$ us ho ("&ht not *no

A. Its one o$ (y $a!or"te techno#o&"es, actua##y, )ecause I used to ... "th (y co(%uter, I ou#dha!e so(eth"n& on (y ho(e co(%uter and o$$"ce co(%uter and ... I ha!e no $"nanc"a# "nterest "ndro% )o4, )ut "t has rea##y chan&ed (y #"$e "n ter(s o$ (y a)"#"ty to reta"n. So no I dont ha!e toorry a)out h"ch co(%uter, "$ I ha!e so(eth"n& on (y o$$"ce, (y #a%to%, (y ho(e, )ecauseyou can u%#oad so(eth"n& "nto the s*y so(ehere ... I rea#"9e "t has a %hys"ca# #ocat"on, )utanyay ... and I can access "t $ro( any co(%uter. I can e!en access "t $ro( the courtroo(co(%uter "$ I anted to s"&n "n to the dro%)o4 account and #oo* at those.

Q. So a !"rtua# $"#e roo( "n h"ch #ots o$ (ater"a#s can )e stored

A. Its a !"rtua# $"#e ca)"net "n the ether so(ehere.

Q. O*, And you ere sent a #ot o$ %hys"ca# (ater"a#s "n th"s case $or re!"e


42/135

A. I as.

Q. And you ere a#so &"!en access to a dro%)o4 that conta"ned add"t"ona# (ater"a#s

A. An o!erhe#("n& a(ount o$ (ater"a#s.

Q. ?"&ht. And so you erent a)#e to re!"e e!ery s"ne %"ece o$ test"(ony, e!ery de%os"t"on,e!ery %"ece o$ (ed"ca# "n$or(at"onF r"&ht

A. Not "n the t"(e I@( a##oed to ser!e as a consu#tant on such outs"de act"!"t"es.

Q. ?"&ht. And I can certa"n#y understand that.

A. I d"d (y )est. D"d (y )est. >ost#y on ee*ends.

Q. O*, And ho d"d you deter("ne h"ch (ater"a#s, then, ere &o"n& to )e %ert"nent to your

o%"n"on, "$ youre #oo*"n& at >r. Jac*sons ent"re (ed"ca# h"story,And hat %eo%#e sa"d a)out ho he #oo*ed and as )eha!"n& /o d"d you *no hat stu$$ to#oo* at

A. e##, as I (ent"oned to you "n the de%os"t"on, I started "th the %hys"ca# (ater"a#s that eresent to (e "n a ser"es o$ )"nders.

Q. And those ere se#ected )y %#a"nt"$$s counse#F r"&ht

A. +hat "s correct.

Q. +hey %"c*ed out h"ch ones they thou&ht you shou#d #oo* at on %a%er

A. e##, #et (e c#ar"$y that. I as*ed to rece"!e a## o$ the (ed"ca# records that ere a!a"#a)#e,)ecause one o$ the th"n&s that ... hene!er I a&ree to ser!e as an e4%ert "tness, I dont ant to)e "n a s"tuat"on here, you *no, theres one %"ece o$ the (ed"ca# record that they dont ant (eto see, and they on#y %resent (e "th the th"n&s that su%%ort the"r s"de. So I sa"d, as a st"%u#at"onto (y )e"n& "n!o#!ed, that I need to )e a)#e to see a## o$ the (ed"ca# records that ere a!a"#a)#e"n the (atter. And then they sent (e a ser"es o$ de%os"t"ons, and I sa"d I anted to see the e4%ertsho had ho ere ... e4cuse (e. Not e4%erts. +he %eo%#e ho co((ented on ... $or e4a(%#e,nurse #ee, I as not or"&"na##y sent that "n$or(at"on, )ut then I as*ed to see that, )ecauseso(eone e#se re$erred to that. So(eth"n& I read. I (ean, "ts ... so there as a &"!e and ta*e. So Iou#d )e read"n& so(eth"n&, and then I ou#d contact attorney ?e"##y, and I ou#d say, couldyou send me this)ecause "ts re$erenced "n the ... "n one o$ the other %"eces o$ e!"dence that Iread.

Q. O*, So you &ot an "n"t"a# %ac*et o$ (ater"a#s

A. Correct.


43/135

Q. -ou as*ed $or a## the (ed"ca# records. D"d you actua##y read e!ery (ed"ca# record you ere%ro!"ded "n th"s case

A. -es, I d"d.

Q. So you read Dr. >et9&ers records

A. -es, I d"d.

Q. And Dr. >urrays records

A. -es, I d"d.

Q. And Dr. Ada(ss records

A. -es, I d"d.

Q. O*,

A. I dont ha!e the( (e(or"9ed.

Q. Its not a (e(ory test. =ut ... so you #oo*ed at a## the (ed"ca# records, and then you sa,hen you ere re!"e"n& so(e records, that there ere so(e th"n&s that you thou&ht ere%ert"nent that hadnt )een "nc#uded )y the attorneys "n the "n"t"a# )atchF r"&ht

A. ?"&ht.

Q. So you ent )ac* and sa"d, can I see, $or e4a(%#e, Cher"#yn Lees test"(onyF correct

A. -es.

Q. ere there any other e4a(%#es

A. I dont *no the e4act seuence that #ed to (e as*"n& $or that.

Q. And $or the sa*e o$ the court re%orter, can you #et (e $"n"sh the uest"ons )e$ore you anser,e!en "$ you *no here I@( &o"n&

A. I a%o#o&"9e.

Q. So you ou#d &o )ac* and as* $or certa"n add"t"ona# "n$or(at"on that you thou&ht as%ert"nent to your o%"n"ons, )ecause "t as re$erenced "n so(eth"n& that you ere sentF r"&ht

A. Correct.


44/135


45/135

A. I$ you re%resent that to (e, I "## %resu(e that "ts accurate.

Q. O*,

A. art"cu#ar#y s"nce I@( hear"n& no o)'ect"ons.

Q. And do you re(e()er hat >r. Jac*son, "n essence, as*ed Dr. Qu"nn hen he ca##ed her tothe =e# A"r /ote#

A. I )e#"e!e he as*ed her to ad("n"ster the anesthet"c that she had used on h"( outs"de o$ theconte4t o$ a denta# %rocedure, )ut I do not re(e()er "$ thats e4act#y correct.

Q. Do you re(e()er hether that anesthet"c as %ro%o$o#

A. I )e#"e!e "t (ay ha!e )een, )ut as I s"t here today, I dont ha!e that record "n $ront o$ (e. +hat

ou#d )e (y $"rst &uess.

Q. And do you re(e()er hether he as*ed $or "t, her to %ro!"de "t to h"( $or s#ee% "n 1; or1

A. I th"n* he (ay ha!e. Is there any reason hy e cant %ut "t on the screen so that...

Q. e can. I 'ust need to %u## "t u%.

A. So I dont ha!e to do a (e(ory u"9

*udge: &%, So let"s brea% now. - #inutes.

*udge: There"s a return on a subpoena fro# the !#periu# J Talent )gency.

Mr. Panish: whose subpoena is it1

*udge: plaintiff subpoena.

Mr. Panish: &%,

*udge: >r. (Beisler, we just as% that you %eep the #icrophone close to you, because we

have a hard ti#e hearing you. )nd if you want to ta%e off the #icrophone and hold it,

because that #a%es it easier, please do that.

Mr. Panish: ! thin% it gets #uffled.

>r. (Beisler: !+ve gotten a second boo% here, and hopefully ! will ... it"s a little

unco#fortable leaning over, but yes, !+ll do #y best.


46/135

Ms. (ahan: sorry. Than% you. )nd !+ll let you %now if ! can"t hear you. May ! proceed1

*udge: yes.

Q. So r"&ht )e$ore the )rea*, e ere ta#*"n& a)out the or* you d"d "n th"s case, and hat(ater"a#s you re!"eed, and ho you &ot those (ater"a#sF r"&ht

A. +hats correct.

Q. And e ere ta#*"n& a)out Dr. Qu"nns de%os"t"onF r"&ht

A. +hats correct.

Q. And you sa"d you read "t and cons"dered "t. And you anted to see the test"(ony a&a"nF r"&ht

A. I sa"d I read "t. I d"dnt say I cons"dered "t.

Q. Is there a reason that you d"sre&arded her test"(ony

A. hat I@( say"n& "s that "n our d"scuss"on ear#"er today, I sa"d I had read "t. In ter(s o$ theo%"n"ons that I $or(u#ated, I dont *no that they re#ate to (y d"a&nos"s or, "n other ords, thee!a#uat"on o$ s#ee% d"sorders and so on. I dont *no that she ... she d"dnt rea##y ta#* a)out that.=ut I ha!ent rea##y conte(%#ated hether or not ... to the e4tent that "t contr")utes to any o$ (yo%"n"ons, I dont *no ho "t re#ates to that.

Q. O*,

A. =ut I certa"n#y read "t.

Q. -ou read "t, and you thou&ht a)out "t, )ut you dont th"n* "t "s re#e!ant to your o%"n"on that>"chae# Jac*son@s, hate!er s#ee% d"sorder he had, as d"sa)#"n& and e4acer)ated hen he ason tour or "n tour6%re% (ode

A. -es. I dont *no ... $ro( (y ... I as 'ust try"n& to $"nd out e4act#y hen ... do e *nohen she est"(ates that the...

Q. I can &"!e you the test"(ony. hen she est"(ates that "t occurred

A. Occurred.

Q. 1; or 1.

Mr. 'os%off: can ! see the transcript you"re referring to1


47/135

Ms. (ahan: sure.

Q. And I@## %o"nt you to the test"(ony here she says that %r"nce as "n the roo( at the t"(e, and

he as to.

A. I re(e()er her say"n& that there as a s(a## ch"#d there, and "t as %r"nce.

Q. ?"&ht. And thats ho e ca#cu#ated the date. -ou can a&ree or d"sa&ree "th that, )ut thatsho e est"(ated 1;.

A. So that ou#d )e near the t"(e he as &o"n& on theMJ and Friends+our.

Q. I( sorry, theMJ and Friends+our

A. -es, hen he ent to >un"ch hen the )r"d&e co##a%sed.

Q. And hat year do you th"n* that as

A. asnt that "n that sa(e t"(e "nter!a#

Q. I( as*"n& you.

A. I )e#"e!e "t as "n 1.

Q. O*, And do you *no ho (any concerts...

A. D"dnt he &o to Korea, a#so, "n 1

Q. So you th"n* there ere to concerts "n 1 one "n Korea, and one "n >un"ch

A. +here as so(e sort o$ a tour, a ("n" tour, at that t"(e, I )e#"e!e.

Q. O*, -ou dont *no hen "n 1

A. I dont *no the e4act date, no. It as hen the )r"d&e co##a%sed, as I reco##ect.

Q. Is that so(eth"n& that %#a"nt"$$s counse# to#d you a)out dur"n& the )rea* 'ust no

A. I as*ed hen he ent on h"s !ar"ous tours, and I )e#"e!e that there as a tour "n 1. As Isa"d, un$ortunate#y, I dont ha!e access to turn on (y co(%uter to #oo* these th"n&s u%. =ut s"nceyou ere as*"n& (e a)out hether theBad+our, theDangerous+our and th"s...

Q. So %#a"nt"$$s counse# to#d you that dur"n& the )rea*


48/135

A. I as*ed the(, yes.

Q. And so thats the )as"s $or your understand"n& at th"s %o"nt Lets ta#* a)out so(eone e#sestest"(ony. D"d you re!"e the test"(ony o$ Dr. Van Va#"n "n th"s case

A. -es, I d"d. I re(e()er that na(e.

Q. Do you understand Dr. Van Va#"n to )e a %hys"c"an ho treated >"chae# "n the ear#y 2shen he as #"!"n& at Ne!er#and ranch

A. -es.

Q. And do you *no hether >r. Jac*son toured at a## "n the 2s

A. I as not a)#e to &et the #"st o$ e4act#y the tour dates...

Q. O*,

A. E!en thou&h I reuested that.

Q. And do you re(e()er Dr. Van Va#"n ta#*"n& a)out >r. Jac*son as*"n& h"( to ad("n"ster%ro%o$o# $or h"( to s#ee%

A. I re(e()er a d"scuss"on a)out s#ee%. I dont s%ec"$"ca##y re(e()er hat dru&, )ut "ts %oss")#ethat he as*ed h"( to ad("n"ster %ro%o$o#.

Q. So you dont reca## Dr. Van Va#"ns test"(ony that >r. Jac*son had a )o4 o$ %ro%o$o# "n h"shouse at Ne!er#and and as*ed Dr. Van Va#"n to ad("n"ster "t to h"( $or s#ee%

*ac%sons objection: hearsay9 it"s inappropriate under evidence code J4, cross8e0a#ination

of an e0pert. )nd if we have to have a sidebar ... this is the sa#e thing they were objecting

to yesterday.

*udge: ! overruled that objection.

Ms. (ahan: and, your honor...

Mr. Panish: no ... ! don"t want to #a%e a spea%ing objection. (an ! discuss evidence code

J4 with the court at an appropriate...

*udge: at a brea%. &verrule it.

Mr. Panish: &%,


49/135

Q. And doctor, ou#d "t he#% you ... I on#y ha!e one co%y o$ th"s. I( sorry, I %r"nted "t dur"n& the)rea*. I$ I &"!e you a %ort"on o$ Dr. Van Va#"n@s test"(ony...

A. +hat ou#d )e &reat.

Q. ... a)out the su)'ect

A. +hat ou#d )e &reat.

Q. =y >s. Cahan and, I@( sorry. I on#y ha!e one co%y at the (o(ent. I( &o"n& to as* you "$th"s re$reshes your reco##ect"on to the "ssues I ra"sed.

A. re!"e"n& docu(ent. -es, I do re(e()er th"s no, )ecause I re(e()er hen he sa"d that hethen s%o*e "th an anesthes"o#o&"st a)out the d"%r"!an, h"ch "s hat the trade na(e "s $or%ro%o$o#.

Q. So I $a"r#y descr")ed hat Dr. Van Va#"n test"$"ed to "th res%ect to >r. Jac*son as*"n& h"( ...ha!"n& a )o4 o$ %ro%o$o# "n h"s house "n Ne!er#and and as*"n& Dr. Van Va#"n to &"!e "t to h"(

A. -es.

Q. In that ear#y 2 t"(e %er"od

A. I d"dnt #oo* at the t"(e %er"od, )ut...

Q. I## re%resent to you that the (ed"ca# records that you ... I@( sure you re!"eed as to Dr. VanVa#"n...

A. -es.

Q. ... )ecause they ere %roduced "n th"s case co!er the ear#y 2s.

A. -es.

Q. And you dont *no hether >r. Jac*son d"d any tours "n the ear#y 2s

A. I dont.

Q. O*, =ut your (ost "(%ortant o%"n"on "n th"s case "s that >r. Jac*sons s#ee% "ssues eree4acer)ated )y &o"n& on and %re%ar"n& $or toursF r"&ht

A. -es.

*ac%sons objection: to the characteriBation, most important.


50/135

Ms. (ahan: he said that.

*udge: overruled.

Q. And...

A. +hat as hen h"s s#ee% d"sorder )eca(e (ost acute.

Q. ?"&ht. =ut you dont e!en *no hen the tours ere, do you

A. At the t"(e that I as re!"e"n& the (ater"a#, I d"d #oo* at the dates o$ the tours.

Q. O*, And here d"d you ... hat as your source o$ "n$or(at"on $or the dates o$ the tours

A. +he tour dates ere descr")ed "n (any o$ the de%os"t"ons )y the !ar"ous de%onents, so(e o$

ho( ere on the tours "th h"(. :or e4a(%#e, >r. Gon&aare, hen he as on the tour "th>r. Jac*son and !ar"ous other %hys"c"ans, hen they ere on the tours. And the de%os"t"ons o$ anu()er o$ the doctors ho acco(%an"ed h"( on the tours, they ou#d state the dates o$ the tours"n those de%os"t"ons. So I certa"n#y *ne the dates o$ the tours hen I had a## the (ater"a#s "n$ront o$ (e.

Q. O*,

A. I 'ust d"dnt ant to ha!e a u"9 %ro&ra( here here I@( try"n& to re(e()er $ro( (e(ory thee4act start and sto% dates o$ each o$ these tours.

Q. O*, And none o$ those %eo%#e ho ere on the tours ... none o$ the doctors, none o$ the toursta$$ ho test"$"ed ... none o$ the( sa"d that >r. Jac*son had "nso(n"a assoc"ated "th toursFcorrect

A. I d"st"nct#y re(e()er, $or e4a(%#e, De))"e ?oe@s test"(ony, h"s "$e at the t"(e, that he hade4tre(e d"$$"cu#ty s#ee%"n& hen he as on tour.

Q. D"d she say "t as 'ust hen he as on tour, or a## the t"(e

A. She s%ec"$"ca##y ta#*ed a)out d"$$"cu#ty ... e4tre(e d"$$"cu#ty s#ee%"n& "n assoc"at"on "th thetours, here he ou#d so(et"(es not )e a)#e to s#ee% $or a cou%#e o$ days a$ter a concert. And asI sa"d "n (y %re!"ous test"(ony, he certa"n#y had a chron"c %ro)#e( "th chron"c s#ee% d"sorderthat as throu&hout the t"(e he as you *no, that e4"sted $or (any years. hat I as try"n&to c#ar"$y as that "t &ot (uch orse and as d"sa)#"n& "n assoc"at"on "th the tours. So ... andthats the *ey "ssue $or (e, "s hen "t )eco(es d"sa)#"n&. Not to say "ts not %resent at the othert"(es, )ut that "t as not d"sa)#"n& e4ce%t hen he as "n assoc"at"on "th the tours. So 'ust toc#ar"$y the d"st"nct"on that I as try"n& to (a*e.


51/135

Q. O*, So sett"n& as"de a## that stu$$ "n the hy%othet"ca# that you ta#*ed a)out, a)out sort o$s%r"n&Hsu((er 2, that there ere so(e th"n&s cons"stent "th tota# s#ee% de%r"!at"on, 'ustcar)onat"n& that t"(e %er"od, hat are you aare o$ "n th"s record,I$ anyth"n&, that says that >r. Jac*son had d"sa)#"n& s#ee% %ro)#e(s h"#e on tour or %re%ar"n&$or tours

A. e##, he re%orted to a nu()er o$ %eo%#e ho ere de%osed "n th"s case, such as nurse #ee, thathen he d"dnt s#ee% at n"&ht, he ou#d not )e a)#e to $unct"on, $or e4a(%#e, at the rehearsa#s. Sohe as on ... I )e#"e!e the #ast day he as treated )y Dr. Lee, he ... she tr"ed a d"$$erent ty%e o$"ntra!enous thera%y $or h"(.

Q. And I dont ant to cut you o$$, )ut thats A%r"# 2F r"&ht And I as as*"n& you not to ta#*a)out the s%r"n&Hsu((er 2 t"(e %er"od. I dont ant to cut you o$$. =ut hat I as as*"n& "s,sett"n& as"de the sort o$ s%r"n&Hsu((er 2 t"(e %er"od...

A. I see. O*,

Q. Ear#"er "n t"(e, hat e!"dence "s there, that youre aare o$, that >r. Jac*son had a d"sa)#"n&s#ee% %ro)#e( h"#e he as tour"n&

*ac%son+s objection: the uestion, ! thin% he should be allowed to answer the previous

uestion, because ! thin% it is responsive. @ven though the conversation too% place later, !

thin% it relates to earlier ti#es, which is the period of ti#e...

*udge: let"s ... !+ll stri%e the uestion, and let"s start over.

Mr. 'os%off: will you as% the uestion again1

Q. Sett"n& as"de the e!"dence that you )e#"e!e shos that >r. Jac*son had a d"sa)#"n& s#ee%%ro)#e( "n the s%r"n&Hsu((er 2 #ead"n& "nto the %re%arat"on $or the +h"s Is "t tour ... sosett"n& a## o$ that as"de, hat e!"dence are you aare o$ "n the records, e"ther (ed"ca# records orde%os"t"on test"(ony, that sa"d that h"s s#ee% %ro)#e(s ere e4acer)ated )y and )eca(e d"sa)#"n&dur"n& tours and tour %re%arat"on

A. +he test"(ony $ro( h"s "$e, De))"e ?oe, that he as una)#e to s#ee% "n assoc"at"on "ththese concerts, and that he rece"!ed "ntra!enous sedat"on $ro( an anesthes"o#o&"st on the tourthat she ... one o$ the tours she acco(%an"ed "th h"( on se!era# occas"ons,=ecause he $e#t that "$ he d"d not &et s#ee% that he ou#d not )e a)#e to %er$or(.

Q. O*, So d"d >s. ?oe say that any o$ those s#ee% %ro)#e(s on tour ere any (ore se!ere thanhat he e4%er"enced other"se


52/135

A. I )e#"e!e she test"$"ed that noth"n& #"*e that had e!er occurred, to her *no#ed&e, hen he as you *no, hen they ere ... that th"s had s%ec"$"ca##y occurred on the tour.

Q. =ut she d"dnt say "t d"dnt occur at other t"(es, she 'ust ta#*ed a)out th"s "nstance on the tourFr"&ht

A. She ta#*ed a)out se!era# "nstances on the tour, and she ta#*ed a)out ho h"s "nso(n"a as sose!ere that he cou#dnt s#ee% $or days hen he as on tour and that he ... she d"d ... she a#sotest"$"ed a)out ho he $eared that s"tuat"on and had an4"ety around h"s a)"#"ty to &et s#ee% henhe as "n that %ressure s"tuat"on.

Q. O*ay )ut, a&a"n, she d"dnt say that, that as any d"$$erent hen he asnt on tour :ore4a(%#e, "$ he ere record"n& an a#)u( or or*"n& on a (o!"e %ro'ect or or*"n& on othercreat"!e endea!ors, &ot a## the neurons $"r"n& and a## e4c"ted, that he ou#dnt ha!e that sa(e#e!e# o$ s#ee% d"$$"cu#ty "n that scenar"oF r"&ht

A. In read"n& the hundreds o$ %a&es o$ her de%os"t"on, "t as (y conc#us"on $ro( that de%os"t"onthat "t as e4acer)ated and )eca(e d"sa)#"n& hen he as on tour )ut that "t as not at thatsa(e #e!e# o$ "ntens"ty hen he as not on tour.

Q. =ut >s. ?oe, ho as )oth h"s nurse and "$e, d"dnt say thatF that as your conc#us"on

jackson v aeglive- transcripts - june 21st dr. charles czeisler. sleep medicine, harvard medical...

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