The Recent Workshop and Articles

"... Turn everything into what it really is: the abstract, the spirit, the nagual." J.M. 

These articles were recent posted in Ixtlan Mailing List. Grateful Thanks to authors!

From: Pack Rat (ixtlan@wwa.com) on Sun, 4 Aug 96 18:54:34 UTTo: ixtlan@wwa.comSubject: The Flyer Octopus

At the last Workshop, it was learned that the flyers are installed at the topof the head; there, there exists a vortex which is not a vortex; rather, ithas a back & forth motion to it; faster than the beating of our heart. This isa center which is not our own.

 Also at this Workshop, we learned that the flyer that is there, is like anoctopus, with thousands of tentacles that travel down through the body, withwhich they leach our energy.

  The tentacles of this 'octopus' cannot simply be removed,tentacle-by-tentacle; for more will simply "grow" in to replace the ones thatget removed...

  At this Workshop, too; one of the Energy Trackers was Carlos' granddaughter;Carola. She is 11 years old; and was up there on stage, with the rest of theEnergy Trackers (center stage with Kylie,) the entire time. She did not go andtake breaks like you expect of someone her age; she was always professional,grown-up; and while the rest of the Energy Trackers would walk leisurely up totheir respective places, sometimes escorted by other people from Cleargreen,Carola would be *sprinting* up to her place on stage, a steak of energy acrossthe floor! She nearly ran me over one time!  (Not so hard to do,really; I'm pretty clumsy! ;-) The thing is, I heard that Carola is verynearly done with the flyers; there is only one or two tentacles left on her!And Carlos is trying to physically, *energetically,* trying to remove thesetentacles himself, but with limited success (he calls her "a demon!" )I suppose one could say that this is "the kid" still left in her, theprankster...

I have a friend, fresh home from the Workshop, and I got a call from him today. He is very disturbed over something that happened to him.Last night, as he was in bed using his leather paperweight (that was handedout at the Workshop to aid in attaining Inner Silence,) as he was pressing thepoints on the chest and above the knee; he had an experience of "something onthe top of his head," and that as he pressed these points, he was actually*cutting off* the "flow" of the flyers' thoughts! It was as if he were cuttingoff their blood supply, or something.

Now, he says that he is not taking all this lightly, anymore. That he haspassed a sort of "point of no return," but this experience has left himshaken. He comes from a Yoga background; and believed that the pressing ofthese points was a way of "massaging ones' self into enlightenment," orsomething similar. But when this sensation occurred to him, this *realization*of what was really happening, it sent him straight out of bed, and I don'think he got to sleep for the rest of the night! I don't think he has evenbeen in that room since it happened! The certainty of what had occurred hithim so solidly, that he has no doubt whatsoever that this is indeed what washappening! And now he's frightened, and he called me hoping that I would tellhim that he spouting nonsense, and that it was his imagination; etc. He isalso having doubts, and feels like he shouldn't try to do that, anymore. Justput the paperweight away and stop this "nonsense." Since I couldn't offer himany such *consolation,* (yeah, right!  I've had my share of strangeexperiences that won't go away, too!) he now wishes for me to post thisexperience of his, and to ask if anyone else has had this experience, ofsensing this "octopus-like" apparition, sitting on top of one's head, and thetentacles going in to those energy centers to tap our energy; and that bypressing these points one is really cutting off the flow of the thoughts ofthe flyers, (thereby "creating" Inner Silence by stopping the flow of theinternal dialogue right at it's source!)So, I would like to hear if anyone has experienced this, or anything like it,or anything at all in relation to the leather paperweight; also, any otherinteresting experiences since the Workshop. Thanks! :)

--Mark Seven Smith***************************************************************************

>From: "Pack Rat" Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 10:41:54 UTSubject: RE: Toltec dolphins

..... Carlos is quoted as saying at the Los Angeles Intensive Workshop (August)last year:

"There's a new nagual among you. He's here watching and reporting to theinternet. He says, 'Ask Kylie if I'm not the new nagual. See if she deniesit.' The new nagual is watching and judging.What for? It doesn't affect me. DJ says it doesn't really matter what anyonesays about you good or bad. Your appointment is with infinity. And I canaccelerate and make the appointment happen now.  I'd like to affect you, butthe help comes from you. Everything in our life has become an imposition. 'Howdo I stop the internal dialogue?' I asked Don Juan. He said, 'Kick yourself.'"

        Later in the notes is this:

Castaneda began by talking about the new nagual on the internet again, and theobnoxious descriptions he's been putting out about the workshop and the

members of the group. [...] He also mentioned some of the specific things fromBurnweed's commentary about him (without mentioning the guy by name). [I'mtold that Nyei was taking notes throughout CC's talk.]"I'm giving you everything I have. I'm not holding anything for myself. I haveno past or future. I'm going to come out of this [workshop] more impeccablethan ever. Why not you?"CC used to ask DJ why he was teaching him, "Why are you doing this for me?" DJtold him, "You won't like it if I tell you why." DJ explained, "I had to renewmyself just to stomach you. Myfirst response when I see you is to vomit. See what I've done with you-I'verubbed against you and I'm more impeccable than ever. Why don't you do thesame?"Then he mentioned Burnweed's comments about Taisha ("imbecilic ears") andKylie. He mentioned what he said about Carol Tiggs looking like a suburbanhousewife who hasn't been laid for 50 years, and the comment that "you'd haveto pull her legs apart with a crowbar." They've been doing this to CC foryears, but why Carol? "What has she done?""I'm flying. I'm gone." He said he asked someone, "Hey what is this internet?This person has the knack of opening her screen to the worst place." She toldhim she didn't want him to be offended. How can I be offended? He also toldabout Merilyn Tunneshende's net comments, accusing CC of having been thrownout by DJ, while MT stayed, deftly characterizing her assertions as, "Me, me,me!""Please push the button off." It is within our means to do this. DJ used tosay that there is no chance to turn the order around because there are flyersthat cross all boundaries of perception. Therefore, "We have to do like achicken would to avoid being eaten by us. We must escape-get out. This issorcery. That's it. We have to be escapees. And from that cell you takenothing with you."        Two days later in the Workshop, there is this comment:

He talked a lot again about the New Nagual on the Internet, and the negativityand junk that keeps us tied to the everyday world. He also mentioned MerrilynTunneshende's broadside against him on the net again, and her statement thatshe was going to donate the income from her books to AIDS research. "What

books? She hasn't written anything! No one seems to notice that." [This led tohim mentioning again the story of the woman in the law office saying she'dwrite one book, ten books, win the Nobel Prize, what does it matter?] Peopleon the net are also picking on particular things and saying, "Oh yes, that'slike a Buddhist practice I've done for years." Or, "Yes, that's just like thischakra meditation." [He mimics the arrogant tone in which this is said.] Wethink we know everything already. "It's just like that," so we don't reallyhear it. DJ's concepts just become a part of ordinary conversation.

        Later on in the Workshop, yet again a comment:

It takes force to move our assemblage point. So we must really try to use it.

So again, no notes. Again he mentioned the New Nagual on the Internet, and howsomeone is reporting to this person what happens here. [He mimics the reportersaying, "Daddy, he's nothing compared to you," and then mimics the NNstrutting egotistically.] So we are going to turn over a new leaf now and juststore everything in our AP. It takes a lot of energy for him to be there. Hesaid he should have told us at the beginning [about not taking notes and usingthe AP]. But it's taken awhile for him to fully stabilize at our level.

        And another comment:

He mentioned the Internet again [meaning the adc newsgroup], and said hehadn't been on it, but had been told what it said. He mentioned how he alwaysavoided reading the reviews of his work, but that friends were always puttingthem in front of him or insisting on reading them to him, especially thecritical ones. "I didn't want to read the reviews, so now I have no friends."

[ . . . ]

He reminded us about some guy on the Internet having written that CC "lookedjust like the kind of Mexican who cuts every blade of grass in California." Heasked, "Should I do that? I would cut every blade of grass in California, if Ihad a purpose."

[ . . . ]

A man asked, "What's your opinion of Victor Sanchez' book?" CC said, "I don'tknow. He goes to a lecture twice and he writes a book and teaches 'stalking.'He gives lectures in Russia. I never talked to him personally." [Mentions thelarge number of self-described naguals again.] CC received a letter saying,"Aren't you ashamed? I have to work two jobs to support Genaro in an old agehome." CC says, "Genaro doesn't need anyone to support him. If age wasadvancing on him, he'd blow his head off, not wait to have someone take him toan old age home. A sorcerer is riding on top of a wave. Victor Sanchez isriding on my back. There's another woman, on the Internet [MerilynTunneshende]. They have their 15 minutes of fame on my back. [He quotesMerilyn's bizarre post to the Castaneda and Ixtlan mailing lists that claimedthat DJ had 'expelled' CC.] What a horrible world they're describing. TheChacmools don't like that. They say, 'Get 'em.'"

There is one more thing I want to put here; it doesn't have to do with the Internet, but it is very funny:"A man asked whether there were any vital words connected with the passes,perhaps in Nahuatal. CC said no, "I have no sense of other languages. Don Juangave it to me in Spanish. Although to please, or maybe to annoy me" [CC toldthe story of his constantly asking DJ picky questions about the plants, withCC insisting on using their Latin names, like "Lophophora williamsiiwilliamsii" for peyote. CC would ask him to tell him a little more about it.DJ would ask him what he wanted to know. CC would wheedle, "Can you tell me

about its gathering?" DJ would say, "Well to begin with the most importantitem you have should be the knife. It should be 3 inches. Let's put it incentimeters. And it must be sharpened in a triangular motion, with the edge onboth sides of the blade. Then you must face eastward. You orient yourself tothe sun. Then you take your penis out and walk 10 paces toward the west,

pissing. And the field for gathering will be taken by the length, duration andstrength of the piss." CC would take notes like crazy and DJ would just go onand on. And the members of his party would roar. "He never stopped. He lovedit."]"******************************************************************************

Subj:   Dogs barking . . .Date:   10/28/96To:         ixtlan@ibag.com>From:   rstark1957@aol.com

.....

All I know is that there have been certain things mentioned, at workshops and inthe books, that are *not* recommended . . . and doing Tensegrity out of doors isone of them.  It's not as if there are absolute injunctions against this orthat, but there are 'suggestions' -- some explained, some not.  I myself tend tofollow them even when I don't understand them.  I figure hey, what can it hurt?It's not exactly like I've been highly aware and doing the right things all mylife.  Why not experiment, see for myself?  So, with that in mind, here are the'suggestions' I recall, and the reasons for them (if any), which are of coursesubject to my own rose-colored understanding:

1.  Do Tensegrity indoors.

Someone might bring up the pictures of the former Chacmools in Hawaii doing itout of doors, but whatever conclusions might be arrived at from these picturesshould be completely disregarded.  Tensegrity should be done indoors, period.That's the most consistent message I've gotten.  Perhaps it opens you upenergetically, you're naked in a sense, working on your energy body, andtherefore vulnerable.  The sorcerers maintain that this is a predatory universe.

Maybe there's a connection.  (Carlos, in one of the books, also recommends thatone never *read* out of doors . . . books, that is ;-)

2.  Always wear shoes.

This came up at the first seminar in Scottsdale that I went to.  It wasexplained that the bottoms of our feet are conduits, or openings in ourenergy, and that unwanted exchanges take place there.  Similarly, in The

Sorcerers' Crossing, don Juan (John Michael Abelar) advised Taisha to protect

the crown of her head by always wearing a hat out of doors.

3.  Avoid sugar -- both natural (fruit, etc.) and refined.

It tends to push energy out to the edge of our luminous bodies, making usmore self reflective and stiff, not to mention horny.

So these are the three main 'suggestions' that come to mind with regard tothe practice of Tensegrity.  If there are others, I'd love to hear aboutthem.  One last thing I would note concerning the 'indoors' matter: Recapitulation is definitely enhanced by an enclosed space.

Barking in the night . . .

Randy******************************************************************************

From: Pack Rat (ixtlan@wwa.com) on Mon, 23 Sep 96 08:09:16 UTTo: ixtlan@wwa.comSubject: los voladores (the flyers)

        Perhaps some direct quotes would be in order, here:

[from the archives:]

THOSE SHEEN-LICKING FLYERS:

DJ had his own explanation -- that the world, the universe we live in issubject to the dichotomy of everything else. [?] "There's another universeparallel to ours that has awareness but not organisms. And energy moving atspeeds infinitely lower than ours. We are travelers. We are moving. The firststep is to move into this other universe -- of the Inorganic Beings -- the'cousins,'" as DJ called them. They are able to accelerate their speed as weare capable of reducing ours. The problem is that the universe in general is apredatorial universe. And out there are "beings that also are withoutorganisms but with incredible awareness that feed on us like chickens." Theydon't devour the muscles or the organs, but the glow of awareness. If asorcerer sees a man -- since sorcerers are capable of seeing energy as itflows in the universe -- they see a person as a conglomeration of energyfields. "Before our days, they [the luminous eggs] were longer up, and lookedlike eggs -- oblong. Now we're the same distance all around, like a ball. Andit's covered by a sheen, like a plastic sheet, that makes it even more shiny,and that's the glow the flyers eat down to this level [pointing at his feet].What we see now is an opaque egg with the toes shining. The rest is deadcompared to that [shining part]." So all our awareness is that of toes -- soall we are concerned with is one thing -- ME, ME, ME.

"I was a sculptor at the time and I studied art." DJ said, "Why don't you makea papier mache" life-size sculpture of a man, attach a tape recorder to it

that regularly says "ME" [CC intones this word very low in his throat], andstick it in the back yard, so you have a reminder of what you are. "He droveme insane with this nonsense of the flyers." But it's a fact of energy, thatcan be proven to us even at our toe level of awareness. "Don't you find itmaddening that all human beings are at that level? Despite the age, culture,orientation -- it's all about ME. Why  all this conniving consistency? Youcan't explain this in sociological or psychological terms. We have all beeneaten down to this level." DJ "found it disgusting." DJ said "Flyers and wehave a symbiotic relationship: we give them food and they give us our beliefs.Another thing that should attract our attention," is the fact that, forexample, an engineer, a brilliant man, falls for the same beliefs as man hashad for centuries. "There's no mystery to this -- the flyers keep us at thatlevel." Another proof is that as a sorcerer begins to discipline himself, hisawareness grows, like a tree that is constantly pruned. "They [the sorcerers]make their awareness so  hard it is unpalatable to them [the flyers]." CCasked us, "What about this English expression 'I've been licked.' Where doesthis come from? It comes from being licked!"

"Why this insistence?" DJ asked. I told him, "I don't know." "The day I couldreally grasp it I was shocked. The things we overlook, why, you start to getparanoid -- how something is keeping me from arriving at what isn't at thelevel of everyday life." CC used to regularly sit on a particular bench atUCLA -- everyone knew it was his bench -- to look at the girls. ("I liked thegirls in those days. Not now. I'm pure. Now I'm flying, into eternity.") Oneday sitting on this bench CC went blank and suddenly became conscious ofenergy, and that something was blocking him from seeing it. "I was workingwith a top notch psychiatrist in those days. I said to him, 'There's somethingkeeping me from perceiving awareness.' He said, 'You've been taking thosehallucinogens. There's something called post-hallucinogenic disorder." So theguy wrote him out a prescription and told him to take two, and to stay home acouple of days.

What suddenly made him aware when he couldn't see it before? DJ told him itwas simple. "You moved your awareness up from 'me' to where you could see. Ormy ministrations have protected you from the flyers so your awareness ishigher. Wow! Ufa! Mamma mia! I come from academia, not from a bar." [Heproceeded to do a take off on a drunk guy sluringly saying "Life . . . islife."]

THE UNIVERSAL CONSISTENCY OF THE HUMAN MIND:

We are capable of stupendous accomplishments. Don Juan says it's not our faultwe deny ourselves these feats. There were circumstances that dictated that.Our only capability now is self reflection. (Nobody listens to each other --we just wait for a lull it what someone is saying, and barge right in talkingabout ourselves.) Don Juan said to think about the persistence and theuniversality of self reflection. Don Juan asked, "Doesn't it intrigue you,this consistency. Is it not the grounds for inquiry?" Don Juan explained it,and his explanation was very disconcerting to Castaneda. The old sorcererswere able to see that while people were sleeping, when they were dreaming, the

AP shifted. And the further from the habitual position, the more bizarre thedream. They used plants, other substances, anything they could find to shiftthat point. They learned different positions the body could adopt that gavethemselves a sense of well being, and thereby learned the magical passes. Theyguarded these with the greatest secrecy. In the course of finding orcollecting the movements, they also found the presence of something. Theyfinally called this presence the flyers -- possessors of awareness but not anorganism -- that feed on us.

Awareness is a sheen, like a plastic cover, that makes the luminous egg evenmore luminous. It goes from the top to the bottom of the egg. Now mankind onlyhas luminosity from the floor to our ankles. So self reflection is all we cando. It's not our fault. Don Juan's revolution was to refuse to take part inagreements that weren't his choice -- e.g., being eaten by flyers. Concernsabout political power, money, food, etc., were minor issues compared to this.Castaneda asked Don Juan if Castaneda could see the flyers. At the timeCastaneda had a large belly, because he used to eat "17 sandwiches of bacon orpeanut butter and jelly a day." So he couldn't look past his belly to hisankles to see the flyers. The magical passes were the way that he got inshape. Castaneda didn't know then if what worked for someone his size wouldwork for others. The old sorcerers properly kept them in great secrecy, butDon Juan said it is natural for any order at some point to come to an end.Castaneda wondered a lot about what to do with this material -- he knew it hadhelped him and that he was OK, but should he keep it all to himself?

Don Juan told him he was younger than Castaneda. He was more agile andyouthful in energy than Castaneda. DJ took CC to Chihuahua, telling him theywere going to be gone for 10 days. He told him to take plenty of cigarettes,and CC, who had a terrible habit at the time, wrapped up 50 packets to take

with him. The first day CC smoked like a fiend. "Maybe I knew something wasgoing to happen." The next day the pack containing all the cigarettes wasgone. CC went bananas. DJ told him that the coyote that had grabbed it surelywouldn't go that far with it, so they spent most of the day trying to followthe track of the coyote that purportedly took it. This track led down into ahorrendous ravine. CC was willing to go down into it for those cigarettes, butcouldn't find the track from there. CC ended up spending the night in this oldravine. DJ asked him the next morning if he'd mind smoking the national brand.CC told him, "Why would I mind? I'd smoke you." So they went looking for atown where they could buy the local product. Finally DJ told him they werelost. CC hated him. They would pass the same point, and CC would point it outto him, and DJ would act like he hadn't noticed. They were lost for 10 days.Finally, DJ said, "Let's go home," and the road was right there next to them.CC doesn't wear shirts with pockets anymore (which he pointed out on the onehe was wearing) because he doesn't want a place for cigarettes.

The passes are the way to change your body in a magical way. Like the MilkyWay, with all its stars, in which they think there must be a black hole thatthey haven't been able to find yet. Something is holding the energy together,so that the force of pulling away has created spiral arms, but the galaxy

doesn't spiral out of control. "We are the same. If it weren't for somecohesive force, our energy would have spun out to infinity. It is that forcethat sorcerers intend to touch with the passes. Our intent doesn't belong withthe magical passes. We join them. They have intent of their own, which is toconnect to that cohesive force."

FLYER IDEALITIES:

The only area that is even half inquiring today is theology. And yet a majorconcern there is with the virginity of Mary. This is the way to cancel out the

perception system.

"My father was immortal. My grandfather was immortal. And yet they died. Theywere immortals preoccupied with the idealities that the flyers give us. Theytell us to keep quiet, don't move, just let us eat you." The only awarenessnot eaten by the flyers is that generated under hard conditions of discipline.They leave this alone.

'POOR BABY' SYNDROME:

"We [meaning CC and his group] aren't gurus, we are navigators. Like DJ, weare trying to navigate into infinity." You have to be precise to do this,truly leaving no stone unturned. DJ said that you're going to venture intothat "on the day you croak -- without your steering wheel, 'a la arriba' [aSpanish expression], like a boat without sails. So since you're going thereanyway, why not go with your steering wheel -- your life force?" CC didn'tknow what to say. "My father was immortal. He lived life besieged by problems-- 'They don't like me!' What are 'problems' when you're going to die? That'swhat the flyers gave us in exchange for energy -- 'ME' -- and we're all poorbabies." CC mimics sobbing, "Nobody understands me!" DJ said, "What's tounderstand?" In other words, "Nobody is paying attention to me like I wouldlike them to. Nobody is hugging me and saying, 'You poor, poor baby.'" A manonce told him his fantasy about going to a South Seas island and having acrowd of women hold him and tell him, "You poor thing. You poor, poor man." CCasked him didn't he fantasize about having sex with the women? No, the manjust wanted to be held by all these women like that. This is "ourquasi-symbiotic relationship with the flyers -- they give us 'poor baby.'"

The idea of poor baby was one of DJ's favorites. "I was raised by mygrandfather who told me I was too short. He said, 'You can't go through thedoor, you'll have to go through the window.'" His handsome cousin Gregoritihad a Roman nose, everyone would open their door to him. But his grandfathertold CC that, "You'll have to have tricks." He told him the best one was beingan orphan. "So I developed my great techniques," telling people he didn't havea father, and (sobbing) that he'd lost his mother too. They tease him thathe's still like that today, but he insists he's not. "Who gave us thisuniversality of 'poor baby?' People sitting on easy street are the biggestpoor babies.

ON BELIEFS:

"We [meaning CC and his group] aren't gurus, we are navigators. Like DJ, weare trying to navigate into infinity." You have to be precise to do this,truly leaving no stone unturned. DJ said that you're going to venture intothat "on the day you croak -- without your steering wheel, 'a la arriba' [aSpanish expression], like a boat without sails. So since you're going thereanyway, why not go with your steering wheel -- your life force?" CC didn'tknow what to say. "My father was immortal. He lived life besieged by problems-- 'They don't like me!' What are 'problems' when you're going to die? That'swhat the flyers gave us in exchange for energy -- 'ME' -- and we're all poorbabies." CC mimics sobbing, "Nobody understands me!" DJ said, "What's tounderstand?" In other words, "Nobody is paying attention to me like I wouldlike them to. Nobody is hugging me and saying, 'You poor, poor baby.'" A manonce told him his fantasy about going to a South Seas island and having acrowd of women hold him and tell him, "You poor thing. You poor, poor man." CCasked him didn't he fantasize about having sex with the women? No, the manjust wanted to be held by all these women like that. This is "ourquasi-symbiotic relationship with the flyers -- they give us 'poor baby.'"

The idea of poor baby was one of DJ's favorites. "I was raised by mygrandfather who told me I was too short. He said, 'You can't go through thedoor, you'll have to go through the window.'" His handsome cousin Gregoritihad a Roman nose, everyone would open their door to him. But his grandfathertold CC that, "You'll have to have tricks." He told him the best one was beingan orphan. "So I developed my great techniques," telling people he didn't havea father, and (sobbing) that he'd lost his mother too. They tease him thathe's still like that today, but he insists he's not. "Who gave us thisuniversality of 'poor baby?' People sitting on easy street are the biggestpoor babies.

OUR AGREEMENT WITH THE FLYERS:

We "get little viruses," and we're "done for life." DJ thought you couldovercome these things. The secret is to welcome it, to let it in. There's nobody of knowledge -- "You have to do it." It was impossible for him in thepast, with his free lectures over the years, to get the "fixed attention thisneeds." "After awhile the premises will make sense to the body. They'll bypassthe mind and eventually make sense to something called the energy body. Thisis our condition -- being incapable of seeing energy as it flows. Why? It'sjust an agreement that we surrender peacefully to the flyers." They tell us,"Don't complain [about this agreement]. Complain about your wife or yourhusband." [This led him into a joke about a very taciturn guy at a party. Awoman, perhaps the host, asks him one question and he responds obnoxiously.Then she asks him, "Are you married?" He responds, "Yes, but my wife doesn'tunderstand me."]

[snip!]

"Only in terms of Don Juan and his sorcery can we understand the depth of our

situation as really being led to being eaten. And we've been given atremendous set of ideas to set us up. They [the flyers] have given us all ourideas and ideals." DJ said that, "If left to man himself, we wouldn't be thatdumb." CC explained, "Look at our fantastic machines, compared to our limitedideologies and systems of belief. Maybe Don Juan is right."

ON SCIENCE VS. SORCERIC PRAGMATISM:

"So who is the pragmatist then? Certainly not moi -- I'm a Western man. Thepragmatist is the sorcerer -- the only man who really leaves no stoneunturned. We are the bullshitters. We think we're so scientific, but we [don'tapply these same methods] to our daily life. That activity [science] won'tcure us from our obsession with self reflection. It won't let us do anythingbut contemplate ourselves. But not even that, because if we really cared aboutourselves we wouldn't do what we do with our bodies."

[He described himself again as having been very fat and eating terribly.] "DonJuan told me, 'You won't go through the eye of a needle. You're too fat.' Whydo we get in all these terrifying shapes? And we love ourselves. What aterrifying contradiction. But then we defend our honor like lions, justwaiting until someone says something derogatory."

"So the sorcerer's first line of attack is [against] self reflection. It's themost dangerous thing we have. It has to be stopped, or turned down. That'smandatory. Ask me questions related to that. But don't expect me to discoverhow wonderful you are. Your wonderfulness is irrelevant to a journey into theinconceivable. Your wonderfulness is relevant only to the world of everydaylife, which I am no longer in."

DJ "never allowed that, he demanded my attention, that I pay attention toevery detail of the world around me. But about myself? No. I wanted to talk tohim about art. He said, 'Art is fine, do it.' All I would have done iscomplain and talk about my self pity" over running out of inspiration("gasoline").

"In this way he forced me to be a sack of stories. I couldn't find the man,Don Juan. He was full of endless stories. That's a sorcerer. The man no longerexists -- he's the abstract. The other [the man, with his own 'story' andfixed identity] is feeding material for the flyers."

THE PSEUDO-SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP:

A man asked, "Can you say more about the Voladores?" CC said, "The Voladoreswere to the sorcerers of ancient Mexico the entities that devour us. They

devour our awareness. This is a predatory universe and we are like chickens.The flyers systematically eat our awareness, they live on that. Symbioticallythey take our awareness and give us beliefs. This was a very noxious conceptto me. I can't repeat what Don Juan said because I'll offend you. [The crowdwas telling him to say it anyway.] 'Man, being such a great builder and

engineer cannot be so stupid as to invent the pope. Do you think he would beso stupid as to create god out of a virgin? With his precise mind, do youthink on his own he'd be obsessed with vaginas and virginity? How can that be?We're not that dumb!'"

"It's a terrifying thought. How can I counteract it? We are saddled withbeliefs that are contradictory and don't express anything about our life orour death. Don Juan said, 'Have you thought about the pace of heaven? Inheaven, you cannot rush. You have to walk with one foot in front of the otherslowly. [He demonstrates.] And no noise. God doesn't like any noise.' Don Juanalso said, 'The worst thing is, do you realize that heaven is a big Jewishstore? God sits in the mezzanine and has two sons: one takes care of thebooks, while the other is out soliciting. One is St. Peter, the other isLucifer.'"

"In this pseudo-symbiotic relationship, the flyers take the best and they giveus this crap. How true. How devastating. I go to talk in Mexico, and Mexicansare very strange. Charming but strange. They have this endless talk about'Castaneda coming, he's a vampire; he comes to suck us dry; he gets youngerand we get older.' You get older because you're dumb! The tremendous interestof sorcerers to transcend those energy boundaries that define us so totallyand don't allow us any movement of energy. Psychologically, since there was norapport when I was speaking to the whole group in Spanish, I got weak talkingthat day. This was not because they were taking the energy. If I'm notinvolved in horseshit which takes 99% of my energy, then of course I have more

energy. How does Castaneda take their energy, by talking to them?"

"WHAT'S IN IT FOR _ME_?"

A man asked, "What do sorcerers say about birth?" CC responded, "Ourbiological mandate is to reproduce. What they say is perhaps that it's time toturn this biological mandate to reproduce around to something equally powerful-- the mandate to evolve. Somehow we are being stopped as a race. Don Juansaid to examine the social order. He said that if the social order is notinterested in protecting us as a race anymore, there's something wrong withit. Look at the barbarities it makes us do. So what kind of 'order' is that?We are obsessed with our inventory -- 'What's in it for me?' From theawareness of our toes comes this notion of 'gain,' to accumulate things thatare meaningless. The law -- the law is not bad. The flyers are the law, andthey feed us this."

INTERNAL DIALOGUE AND THE INTERNET:

[CC said:] "There's a new nagual among you. He's here watching and reportingto the internet. He says, 'Ask Kylie if I'm not the new nagual. See if shedenies it.' The new nagual is watching and judging.What for? It doesn't affect me. DJ says it doesn't really matter what anyonesays about you good or bad. Your appointment is with infinity. And I canaccelerate and make the appointment happen now.  I'd like to affect you, but

the help comes from you. Everything in our life has become an imposition. 'Howdo I stop the internal dialogue?' I asked Don Juan. He said, 'Kick yourself.'"

SOMEONE WHO "JOINED THEM":

In our individual group, CC taught us three new arm and hand movementsdesigned to get us in touch with the tendon energy. He began with a storyabout a model who was very tall that briefly joined the group, that Kyliebrought in. The woman was thrilled to be working with the Chacmools initially,but then after three days, her face was totally red, her blood pressure hadgone way up, and she was a mess. She said the Chacmools were "animals." Theygo from morning to night, only stopping for dinner. The woman was very"spiritual" too, and acted annoyingly motherly to CC. She had a big problemwith the telephones, and being dyslexic, kept hitting the wrong button to pickup the phone. Even if she'd move her chair to different spots, she couldn'tseem to get it right. This was a project for her to develop the disciplineneeded to ward off the flyers.

THE FORMULA-TO ESCAPE:

"Please push the button off." It is within our means to do this. DJ used tosay that there is no chance to turn the order around because there are flyersthat cross all boundaries of perception. Therefore, "We have to do like achicken would to avoid being eaten by us. We must escape -- get out. This issorcery. That's it. We have to be escapees. And from that cell you takenothing with you."

"What is so important to us here -- just the voucher in our secret vault thattells us, 'Carlos Castaneda is the greatest,' signed 'Carlos Castaneda'? Sowhy should we be fooled in this immense universe. Do you thing we're reallymade in the image of God? That's the flyers [telling us that]."

"Don Juan gave me a great formula -- 'Yes they did all kinds of things to you.But that was then, this is now!'" He reminded us of his story about the mantelling him he'd been "sexually abused" at age 17. He said he also knew of awoman who had first been abused by an older brother at age 6. Then anotherbrother found out about it and started abusing her. Then the father found out,and started molesting her too. This went on for years and years. This is "sixmillion pounds" of trauma.

"What do you say to a person like that? Don Juan would say, 'That was then andthis is now.' There's no therapy that could help overcome that muchconcentration of" negative energy. "Therapy is part of the flyers' kit. 'Behappy, go to the therapist, the psychologist.' I don't think I could sell itto her [DJ's philosophy]. I would give anything, however, to be able to doso."

[snip!]

When the Flyers find disciplined people, they taste sour to them. "They say,'Yick,' and spit at us. Then they say, 'I want an ice cream being.'"

ON THOUGHTS AND WHY WE CAN DISCUSS FLYERS:

A woman wondered, "Why do the flyers let you tell us this [meaning why do theyallow him to let us know how to avoid them]?" CC responded that they "haveplenty of others. If we eat a bad fruit, and walk over to another tree whichhas good fruit, we don't say, 'Oh, I'm going to punish that bad tree overthere.'"

ON FLYERS AND DREAMING:

Dreaming attention is another source of discipline that renders us inedible tothe Flyers. Once you cross the trap door, something comes to take you eitherto another layer of the onion, or to the dual universe of the inorganicbeings. You control which direction you go by voicing your intent --essentially giving an order, such as "Take me to your world." The only thingthey listen to is a direct order, it does no good at all to plead, whine oract placatingly. You "don't order them in an arrogant way," but in a strong,forceful, convincing manner. ("If you are well brought up, you can say'please' or 'thank you' too," he joked, "but it's optional.")

ON FLYERS AND THE INORGANICS:

The IB's are likewise consumed by flyers, and they want to join their slowspeed to our fast one. The voice took CC one time to the IB's world and toldhim it was "populated by three types" -- those that look like undulatingcandles, round ones and others shaped like a bell. The voice also told himthat there were other entities there that they couldn't show him unless hegave his word that he would stay. "All male dreamers [including DJ] report thesame experience."

[snip!]

The Flyers, or Jumpers, are also inorganics, that feed on all organic beings.Although the sorcerers have been unable to distinguish the details of theluminous eggs of non-human organics to discern this, the dreaming emissary hassaid "yes" to questions about whether the flyers feed on animals and otherorganics in our world.

ON FLYERS AND THE EAGLE:

A man asked about the connection between the Eagle and the Flyers. CC said DJdidn't know. He couldn't answer when CC asked the same question.

THE FLYER PHOTOGRAPH:

Tony, the Tibetan Buddhist follower who took the pictures of the Flyer at thepyramids, will be with us next Sunday. He's a "darling guy. He has these big

eyes that circle around. He is an instant translator too." [The woman who wastranslating that day for the Spanish speakers told him she's so good she makesthe same guttural noises he does.] Someone asked how Tony took the picture.There were "90,000 Mexican Catholic Buddhists there, and the Dalai Lama." Tonyis "holy too." They call him "Tony Lama." He organized the event, and thentook lots of pictures, rapid fire. One had this speck that he blew up. He tookit to Carol Tiggs. When she showed it to CC, they took it as an omen that itwas time to talk about the Flyers. DJ had told him never to talk about them,or "they'll burn you for sure."

ARGENTINA?

Argentina is the home of the flyers. Something about the tilt of the earth orthe South pole or something concentrates them there. It's a very "egotisticalplace."

"DO SOMETHING EVIL EVERYDAY" --Nietzche

At about 8:30 PM, the picture of the Flyer was projected on a screen at theside of the main platform. The three enlarged transparencies appeared muchclearer than the small slides that were shown at Omega. CC explained that theflyers, "are as big as buildings."

In response to a series of questions he said that the flyers "like the dark";that "they like men better," making it easier for women to preserve theirawareness; that "we all know [on some level] that they are there"; and that,"yes, you could potentially feel it [licking] -- it feels like being licked."

He talked about Nietzsche writing, "Do something evil everyday," and commentedon how "egoistic" and "insane" most philosophers are.

ON DISCIPLINE:

"Someone asked me last night about what discipline was needed to ward off theflyers. That's what I've been teaching you. Tensegrity. Just do the Tensegrityand self discipline yourself until the awareness arises. Then you will see theenergy. The flyers will still eat you when you raise your awareness. They willeat it even more, but you will have more resources."

MORE ON THE FLYER PHOTOGRAPH:

The screen was finally ready, and Kylie put up the Flyer picture again. Atfirst they waited for someone to narrate. Nyei finally stepped in to startexplaining what we were seeing, and then CC took over, having the portablemicrophone put back on him by Kylie. He said that sorcerers see the flyerswhen they start seeing energy as it moves. These figures are like shadows inthe background when they look at energy. The picture may only have resultedfrom a speck of dust on the lens, but it is "very interesting" that it"arranged itself to look exactly as sorcerers see flyers."

He explained again that there were 90,000 "Catholic Buddhists" present at theevent where the picture was taken, and that the photographer, Juan AntonioC_____ (who was present, and who is also known to the group as "Tony Lama")has psychic abilities that have resulted in "a lot of weird things happeningto him." He is the founder and director of Casa Tibet in Mexico. CC said thispicture was CC's "favorite" of the things that have happened to Tony, "but I'msure he has others he likes better."

Between Tula and Mexico City there's a mountain. The sorcerers used to watchas the flyers took three jumps to go from the mountain to the pyramids to thechurch. Then they took three leaps to return to the mountain, and a fourth"into infinity." And there is a pass that the old sorcerers had called "ThreeJumps Into Infinity." CC quickly demonstrated that it was done by pushing abreath in front of the body with one hand moving up in front of the body threetimes. The fourth movement (or imitated leap) of the hand in front of the bodytakes it into infinity.

CC said the next T-shirt should be "Let your awareness grow with Tensegrity."He decided that was a good one, and that he deserved a bonus. CC said that "Iwill give you my word, when I see your awareness rising from your toes, I'llyell." [He reminded us about how excitable he is, because of the circumstancesof his birth. He joked that he would get so excited when he saw our awarenessrising that he'd be hauled away by medics while he muttered incoherently,"They're rising from their toes."]

DJ said that the flyers come through "the sea of awareness." [CC mimickedhimself asking DJ, "What is this sea of awareness," in a whiny voice. "How canI believe in this sea?"] CC said he wanted to do everything he could to belike DJ. "I'd be a little Don Juan," he said, if that were possible.

In response to questions, CC said that the flyers are not aware of what wethink, just as we're not aware of what chickens think. If one unruly chickengets away, CC said, "I'm not going to go chasing after it. I've got plenty ofothers."

A man asked if the flyers have a mood or a face. CC said, "No, they are veryabstract." CC pointed to the protruding stomach of the Flyer on the screen andjoked that it had "eaten well." Then he joked that the place where he waspointing, the bottom part of the figure's apparent stomach, "may be hisheart."

Someone asked if the Flyers liked emotions. CC said, "Yes. They like problems,especially big personal problems." He gave as an example someone worryingabout whether they were getting another person's attention. The only antidoteto how attractive we make ourselves to the Flyers by worrying about theseproblems is discipline.

A man asked whether seeing flyers or energy was merely another way ofcategorizing perceptions that others, in other disciplines, see as auras orUFO's. CC responded that those other categories are "glosses."

"There is only one way of seeing, just like there is only one way of walking-- bipedally." He explained that sorcerers see with their whole bodies. To seeenergy as it flows in the universe is a specific ability of the human body. Wecan all see the flow of energy, without interpretation, but we block ourselvesfrom this perception. CC referred to phenomenology as a means of explainingwhat we perceive, and deconstruction as an example of "taxonomy gone mad." Hetold us, "Read Master Foucault tomorrow, as an exercise." He then gave otherexamples of taxonomies.

"How is it that we create with our minds a room? We go from there to[creating] a building, then a city, then a country, then a universe." Anautistic person doesn't do this. They get stuck on the crack in the floor --they have nothing to stop them from becoming immersed in detail. They don'tcreate the glosses we do.

ON KNOWING, PERCEIVING, AND THE INTERPRETATION SYSTEM:

Castaneda had a teacher whom he considered his guiding force. Don Juan said towatch him. The man was up on all the latest thinking and talked about praxisand practical actions. Don Juan asked whether Castaneda found that anything hetalked about in the classroom affected the way the man lived his life.Castaneda found that no, outside the teaching period the man was just likeeveryone else. Don Juan, by contrast, was affected by everything hediscovered. He was a true pragmatist, a true scientist. He was navigating intothe unknown.

How sorcerers found the means of seeing energy as it flows in the universe, wedon't know. It probably took centuries. They were able to cancelinterpretation so they didn't already think they knew what things were. Wehave learned in our culture to construct units of interpretation -- e.g., achair, a table, trees. "Room" is inferred when we enter a closed space, andunless something is blatantly missing, like a roof or something, we carry onas though we know where we are. Castaneda had to admit that Don Juan wasright. The art of sorcerers for Don Juan was to purposely arrive at thiscancellation of the interpretation system, to see energy as it flows.

[Los Angeles Intensive Tensegrity WorkshopAugust 1, 1995]

**************************************************************************rlos Castaneda, the 20th century's own sorcerer's apprentice, hasbeen nearly invisible for 25 years. Not that he was ever exactly inplain view.

The author of nine books based on his experiences with Juan Matus, aYaqui seer, Castaneda has been seen as a bridge to the unknown bymillions of spiritual seekers--especially in the soul-searching '60sand '70s.

Now he's back.

Or was back.

Castaneda was center attraction earlier this month in Anaheim at atwo-day "Tensegrity" seminar. More than 400 devotees paid $250 eachto attend the seminar led by three women, called "chacmools," whotaught a series of "magical passes," or movements.

Castaneda has succeeded in being one of the most elusive writers ofour time--to remain invisible, he says, is the sorcerer's way. Inthe '80s, he effectively vanished altogether. He never allows aphotograph or a tape recording of his voice. He only rarely hasgranted interviews--but unexpectedly agreed to one in Anaheim. (Seeaccompanying story).

Descriptors: CASTANEDA, CARLOS;

---------------------------------------------------------------------Copyright (c) 1995 Times Mirror Company**************************************************************************

>     I found an article by Nina Wise in the February '96 issue of>The Sun Magazine. It is an account of two conversations she> and a friend had with Carlos Castaneda in Santa Monica. ...

**************************************************************************

************************************************************************

>From: Brandy Dominick Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 19:52:47 -0500Subject: Re: In English Articulo de CC en Periodico Cambio en Mexico!

At 01:00 PM 10/26/96 -0700, you wrote:>>If anybody can translate this, please do...  =20

Carlos Castaneda at the end of the millennium

By Fernando Figueroa

In the next weeks Grijalbo Editorial will begin to sell the book "TheSpirit of don Juan. An introduction to the work of Carlos Castaneda," byRichard Dixey and Joaquin Castle, published originally in the United= States..        With the appearance of this volume in Spanish, the Latin Americananthropologist returns to the arena where in 1968 he shook the foundationsof science with his books "the Teachings of Don Juan. A Yaqui Way of

knowledge," published by the University of California in Los Angeles(UCLA), from which he got his Degrees  (the maser's degree subsequentlywith "A Separate Reality" and was granted a doctorate with "Journey toIxtlan").        The text of Dixey and Castle is directed to the beginning readersof the works of Castaneda and also for those who feel a little misplaced i=nthat magical and mysterious labyrinth that underlies the nine books thatuntil today have been=20published about Don Juan.       Apart from being used as guides for reorganizing the meaning ofpractical lessons of shamanism like "erasing personal history," "breakingroutines,""stopping self-importance," "dreaming,"  "stalking" or "mastering intent,"the book includes a section in which is defined the thesis that Don Juanexists or existed and that therefore it is about an anthrop=F3logical matterand not a mere literary fiction, as the enemies of Castaneda have asserted for decades..        Basically, Dixey and Castle make their opposition to  Richard ofMille, who they believe destroyed Don Carlos in the volume "Castaneda'sJourney."DeMille accuses Castaneda of not having carried out field work (absence ofnotes of that work), of shooting the ideas of Wittgenstein, of failing tomaintain correctness chronologically in the secondary of the events, ofusing disguised literature from anthropology and, in summary, of havinginvented Don Juan.        Dixey and Castle refute DeMille's arguments one by one  and the aceup the sleeve of both authors is the fact that other anthropologists havementioned in their studies the existence of Don Juan as somethingabsolutely real (even though  this last word loses a great part of itstraditional meaning in the present context).        Long time fans of Castaneda, Dixey and Castle bolster their defens=ewith all types  of references - anthropology, esoterical and finallyScientific (like quantum physics).  However the authors seem to not beaware that in 1974 Octavio Paz wrote a masterly prologue for the firstedition of "the Teachings  of=20Don. Juan" (FCE).       Those who wrote "The Spirit of Don Juan" will be left with theirmouths open if they rise to our Nobel prize and affirm:  "I admit that the'mystery of Castaneda' interests me less than his work. The secret of hisorigin- Peruvian, Brazilian or Chicano?  --It seems to me a mediocreenigma, above all if you think about the enigmas that the books propose forus.   The first of these enigmas refers to their nature -: anthropology orfiction? It could be said that my question is pointless.  to documentwhether anthropology or fiction, the meaning of the work is the same.  Theliterary fiction is already a ethnographic document =20and the document, as its critics more directly recognize, possessesliterary courage undoubtedly  If the books of Castaneda are a work ofliterary                                     fiction, they are of a very

strange kind: their topic is the defeat of anthropology and the victory ofmagic; if they are works of anthropology, their topic could not be lessthan the vengeance of the anthropological 'objecr' (a Sorcerer) over theanthropologist until he becomes a magician, Anti-anthropology."        When Paz wrote that article- signed in Cambridge, Mass, September15 of 1973-, Castaneda had only published three volumes of his  Stories ofdon Juan.   Perhaps for it Paz dared to say that "anthropology carriesCastaneda to witchcraft and this to the unitary vision of the world then:to the contemplation of the truth in the world of 'every day'..=20      The sorcerers don't teach you the secret of immortality neither dothey gave you the recipe of eternal happiness: they return to you the view.They open for you the doors of the 'other' life. But the life is here.If, over there is here, the other reality is the world of every day."        Although from "the teachings of Don Juan" already it suggests thatthe wisdom of the warrior - an inheritance from the mesoamerican shamansnot only was a road in order to see the "other" reality, it is the "TheEagle's Gift" (1981) where it is clear that the end of the search  isneither more  nor  less than immortality. To the majority of the peopledeath takes them by surprise and appropriates their energy, while thewarrior has acquired enough power so that together with death arrives totalfreedom.      Baba: I don't have to trick my disciples into accepting me. The Shakti, which I have received from my Guru, does the work for me, without my willing it. The Shakti passes into a seeker of Her own accord. I don't have to do anything. If you read my book, Play of Consciousness, the way in which Shakti grabs people will become clear. This Shakti is also called Kundalini, which is the creative power of the universe.

CC: This process is very different from the way in which sorcerers of the American Indian traditon work.

Baba: There can't be that much difference between the two traditions, because the same Shakti pervades everywhere.

CC: The American Indians believe that no one is willing to undertake a very rigorous training. Don Juan's people feel that a volunteer should be doubted. They believe that the only people who can handle the knowledge are naturally reluctant people, and anyone who volunteers is looked at skeptically. That is why the teacher has to go out and lasso an apprentice.

Baba: We believe that the Shakti, before becoming active in a person, selects him very carefully. This Shakti is the same energy that creates the entire cosmos, and therefore it is very intelligent, very conscious, and all-knowing. She knows past, present, and future, and She knows which people to enter.

CC: Don Juan has had only two apprentices-I am one-in his lifetime, and they came to him when he was at a very advanced age, around eighty.

Baba: Each yogi, or holy man, has a different way.

CC: Do you think there is any difference between the holy quest and what we call sorcery? Is there anything like sorcery or magic in your tradition?

Baba: There is no sorcery or magic in our tradition. In Siddha Yoga, the inner Shakti unfolds itself through meditation, and it is this awakening which grants what are called siddhis, or psychic powers. In ancient times, there were yogis who had marvelous and miraculous powers. There was one whose name was Jnaneshwar Maharaj. One day, he wanted to go to meet someone; so he commanded the wall on which he was sitting to move, and the wall carried him to his destination. This is the magic of the inner Shakti, the magic of God's grace.

CC: Yes, I will agree with that. But do you emphasize the practices that lead to the attainment of these powers or are they only incidental to greater development?

Baba: As you go deeper into yourself through meditation, you discover the centers of these powers, and when you come upon them, the various powers make themselves available to you.

CC: Are these centers in the body?

Baba: Not in the physical body; I am talking about subtle centers. There is, for instance, a center in the heart, but it is not the physical heart.

CC: If the centers are not in the physical body, are they in another body?

Baba: Within this body are three more bodies; the subtle centers are situated in those bodies. Right now, you are functioning in one body. When you dream, you enter another body. During deep sleep, you move into yet another body, and when you meditate; you move into still another body. So there are four bodies, not one. According to our philosophy, there are also four corresponding states: waking, dream, deep sleep, and turiya, the transcendental state.

CC: I am very curious about these concepts because sorcerers such as don Juan, in the final ordeal of any apprentice's career, pick up the apprentice and throw him into an abyss. But the apprentice never reaches the bottom. It is difficult for me to understand rationally. What happens to the body? It should smash itself at the bottom of the abyss. Yet don Juan says that it doesn't. He says that what would make me disintegrate is simply the notion I have about my body being solid.

Baba: According to the yoga of meditation, you pass from gross matter to pure Consciousness. What appears to be gross has emanated from Consciousness. Though the body does not disappear, it loses its grossness, and is transformed into Consciousness. We think that it is physical, that it is gross, but in reality, it is pure Consciousness.

CC: Are there steps, in your tradition, that lead to the awareness that everything is Consciousness? Is meditation one of them?

Baba: Our path consists only of meditation. This awareness comes through meditation. As you go deeper and deeper into yourself, you become more and more aware of the fact that you are not gross matter but that you are Consciousness. We call it the different stages of evolution. It appears to me that whatever you do must have roots in our tradition; probably the outer form has changed.

CC: I want to ask you about seeing your own double, which you mention in your book, Play of Consciousness. In don Juan's knowledge, one of the key facets is development of an "outer self"-an exact replica of what we are-which will act in the world for us. Is there anything similar in your tradition?

Baba: Yes, we call it pratika darshan, or vision of one's own double. What you describe forms a part of the classic yogic tradition. There have been yogis in India who could exist in two places at once. There was one yogi calld Manpuri, who would be in his ashram in one form, and at the same time, would be working elsewhere, in another form. Again, it seems to me that what you are talking about has its basis in our scriptures. The original university, from which these two traditions have come, must be one and the same. If you read our mythological scriptures, you will find yogis or divine incarnations assuming different forms for different tasks which needed to be performed in different places.

CC: Even now, today, is there any emphasis on that practice?

Baba: Yes. Take for instance, the case of my Guru. Even though he is no longer in a physical body, he often appears to me and gives me advice on different matters. Though he has departed from the physical body, we consider him to be quite real, and we worship him. He appears to us in meditation and dreams, gives us messages, and then goes away. My Guru has revealed himself to many of my followers and gives them messages.

CC: Is a real Master one who has transcended his death?

Baba: No one would be regarded as a great Guru in India if he had not transcended his death.

CC: How interesting. That is very different from don Juan's viewpoint. He does not have the concept of transcending death at all. The sorcerers believe that once the body disintegrates, that is the end of everything.

Baba: That is not so. For instance, profound sleep is a kind of death; yet we return from it. At the time of death, we leave only this body, but we do not cease to exist. Whoever has departed from this body can come back in a different body. Would you like to give me an idea of what you do to attain the state which you are supposed to attain?

CC: I have finished my apprencticeship, which lasted fifteen years. Don Juan has now left me; he has thrown me out into the world. Now everything is up to me.

Baba: In India, also, one has to serve as an apprentice for at least twelve years. But there comes a time when the Guru knows that his disciple has become perfect and lets him go.

CC: What you mentioned earlier, about seeing the Master in dreams, is very appealing to me. There was a time when I could meet don Juan in dreams; but now that he has let me go, I cannot find him anywhere, not even in dreams.

Baba: Some dream experiences bear enormous fruit. What your mind is intensely interested in shows itself in dreams. In India there was a saint called Tukaram Maharaj, and he received spiritual initiation in a dream. As a result of that, he achieved perfection. My own Guru appears to me even now, because to me he is quite alive. I honor him as a living being in my meditation. I love my Guru with all my inner heart; therefore, he appears to me.

CC: Are the dreams in meditation or sleep?

Baba: There are different kinds of dreams. Some are ordinary sleep dreams, whereas others are quite close to meditation, and those are the most dependable dreams. There is also a state in meditation called tandra, which is neither dream nor waking, and whatever you see or dream in that state turns 

out to be true.

CC: So you could have a validation of that?

Baba: You are a very good listener. What you say has a great deal of reflection behind it.

CC: For fifteen years don Juan trained me to listen attentively; so I am always hooked to what is being said-all of me is.

Baba: I can see that.

CC: The only thing I am not doing now is taking notes. I took notes as I talked to don Juan because he doesn't like tape recorders.

Baba: People like tape recorders because their brains can't absorb what is being said. My Guru didn't like tape recorders either.

CC: Don Juan says that if you have a tape recorder, you are never listening, because you rely on listening to the tape later.

Baba: I agree; but everyone doesn't have the capacity to listen well. It is only rare people who, through long practice, acquire the ability to listen with full attention. Whenever I talked to my Guru I didn't even take notes. 

Then, when I composed Play of Consciousness, whatever I had heard from him rushed up from within and was written down. It was finished in twenty days. Every word he spoke is still in my head.

CC: Yes, I know the feeling. I have the same experience when I try to write about don Juan, even though I have notes.

Baba: Is don Juan still alive?

CC: Oh, yes.

Baba: From the account that you have given of him, he seems to be worth meeting.

CC: Yes, and it would be very interesting if he would come to the United States, but he never does. He likes to travel a great deal, but he doesn't go out of Mexico. I have asked him several times to meet various people, but I have never gotten the opportunity to take anyone down to meet him.

Baba: I am very fond of meeting such beings.

CC: We should make an arrangement, but I don't know when I will see don Juan again. It may be a matter of a few months or perhaps years; he doesn't see me any more. It depends on me now, and on how well I live my life.

Baba: I am very happy that you came here with such love.

CC: I will be back later.

Baba: You will be most welcome; we can meet at any time. ********************************************************************From: **********************************************************************

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