NATIVE ECONOMIC COMMISSION.

MATURELLE EKONOMIESE KOMMISSIE.

Sitting at

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

(Pages q & S l S & O C ).

u

.. (p p .

/ 17...............................(pp- >Official

Shorthand W riters,

P. O. Box 1534. ’Phone 1380.

JOHANNESBURG.

I H D I X .

Dr. D.L.-fcerpuson.

(Medical uffioer kew iirigiitoa and Aaat* K .O .H . Port Elizabeth)...........

wegHrs.S.Craicc Bain & J.T.Burnett (reprasenting Midland CnaiBbor of

Industries ). .

Mr.H.A.Sabults (Grahamstown colouredcoramunlty)

Mr. Shedraok lallo (Graham at own natives)

Mr.flUJ.^rraway & M r.l.W .Freger(Be present In# P.T?.Ch*?nb*r of Commerce)

Yr* H.^clton (Korst«n Village Managementaoard)

Head Constable L .S .van der Walt*(stationed at Brighton)

pages

5755 . . . .5 7 7 5

577 5 . . . .5 7 8 8

5788 . . . 5805.

5806 ...583T5.

5853 . . .5 3 4 2 .

5842 . . .5 8 5 5 .

CT55,NATIVE ECONOMIC COMMISSION

PORT ELIZABETH,24th MARCH 1931_______10 a .m ,

SEVENTTe lghth______ PUBLIC SITTING

PIE SENT:

Dr* J . B. Holloway, (Chairman),

Major W. H. Anderson, Mr. A. M, Moatert,Dr. H. C. M. Fourie, Dr. A. W. Roberta,Mr. F. A. W. Luoaa, Senator P-W. le Roux van Niekerk,

Mr. C. Faye, (Seoretary)

PR. DUNCAN LAMONT FERQU30N, Medioal Offioey New BrightonLocation, Assistant M .O .H .

for the City of ?ort Elizabeth,

oalled and examined:

CHAIfMAN: Are there any particular points under our

terms of reference which you wish to apeak on ?- I have ■

few points on which I should like to say a few word*. I wrote

a general scheme on which 1 would like to apeak, but it might

possibly be beat if I should deal with each point separately.

First of a ll , if you w ill allow me, I should like to

daal with the question of venereal diaeaaea. And may I oonfine

ray remarks to begin with to the NqW Brighton Location. I happe

to be in charge of the venereal disease clinics in Port

Elizabeth, as well aa being Medical Officer at New Brighton.

W ell, as far aa I can make out, venereal diaeaaea may be

aaid to be common at Haw Brighton but here again it ia

impossible to say what percentage of the people are affeoted.

From what I can hear of figures quoted by other author­

itie s , it ivould appear to me that those figures are somewhat

on the high aide. We have, aa far aa I oan make out, about

270 new cases occurring per annum in a population of approxi­

mately 8 ,0 0 0 . 1 think that figure ia high beoauae I have

no evidence that the oases are concealed from me at all* I

take it that all the Natives come to me for treatment*

5756.

SENA‘JOB VAN NIBSCE *flTi Wh^ t la your experience, when

tney come are they in in itia l stages ?- Many are in the

In itial stages. They oome to me now In the In it ia l stages

because they hove heard that the treatment is effective . They

are very quiok lesrn that » treatment is effective and they

are not possessed of that false shame whi ch the European has,

and, as a matter of fact, the Suropenn is more likely to

conoeal the disease than the Native is . I hnve seen many

more cases of gonorrhoea In Buropeans than in Natives.

Gonorrhoea in Native baby girls Is very uncommon, whereas

amonp the European baby girls It la not at all infrequent.

DF. ROBERTS: Why do you say 'baby g irls ' ?- That

is Just one of the instanoee of the way in which gonorrhoea

is spread. Baby girls are often Infected innocently with

gonorrhoea and we always have und?r treatment several cases

of European baby glrle, nrhereas, as far as my memory goes,

1 do not know of a single oaee of Native baby girls getting

gonorrhoea. &ot that reason it seems to me that gonorrhoea

is lees common among Native a than among Europeans, although

syphilis is more oommon among Natives. It must be distinctly

understood that there are these differences between syphilis

aod gonorrhcea. It seems to me that the common habit of

married Native men co-habiting with other women during the

period that their a ijea are nursing their babies or during

the period when they are pregnant, is a great oause for the

spread of the disease. Ife appears to me that that habit

is a common source of Infeotion among the families of such

men. £ou find that when that man's wife is pregnant or

Is nursing her baby, that man goes to another T'Oitmn who is

suffering from venereal disease and he comes back to his

own home and bring the disease to his healthy wife and family.

5737

I had no difficulty at all in persuading my

patients at 3righton to some for treatment whioh is

pernaps due to the spectacular affects of the treatment of

venereal disease or rather syphilis, Sonorrhoea Is not

so effective and it tajjes a long time to cure, but syphilitic

treatment is very spectacular now sod the result? are appre­

ciated by the Natives, I may aay that I have had very

few oases where these diseases have been deliberately

concealed,

i now come to errors in diet, quality and quantity,

;vhich tc my mind account for touch illnealth . Among a certain

3lass of Native there is a genuine coccern in this matter

and an attempt 1# made to prevent the ot; set of disease. It

is among the nore educated Native people that tney try to

remedy this and I have evidence that UJwy a re appreciating

tne position and that they are trying to feed themselves

and tneir families more rationally than they hare done hitherto,

Of course, tne comparatively low wagee and inability to spend

money wisely ratner tend to aggravate the position, *t

is a fact that very often Uatives do not spend the** money

wisely, and one will understand how tnat affects the whole

petition,

#ow the next point 1 would like to say a few words

about is the question of infantile mortality . Infant

mortality at New Brighton location la at yetr was 33 2 ,6 per

thousand births. Mow, that la high, of course, on an

European standard, but within the lasg year tre have instituted

a system of child we lfax’e in Kew Brighton, not on tne same

lines a« sonduoted in European communities, but the four

nurses wiiooj we have thsss nave been trained in child welfare

work and they have been told to advise Native mothers with

5758

regard to the feeding of their babies and this has been in

operation approximately eight or nine months and the oonditions

are suoh that I do not think that there are many babies who

have not been influenced by this method, with the result that

the death rate has now fallen from 332 to 171 .3 . That is

for the eight months ending 28th iebruary 1S31 and for those

eight months the infantile mortality rate was 171.3 per annum,

DF. EOBSJffS: Would you not aaj that some of that

might be due to better registration?- As far as X know, the

registration has not differed within the last eight months

from what it was the previous year. Of course, it is very

difficult to come to a definite conclusion on so short a

time, but what seems to me to bear out this 171 is that the

Coloured population of Port Elizabeth seems to have improved

greatly in its attention to this question and I think that

tba mortality w il l , by the methods which we arc applying,

be kept down to under 200 , But I Jo not think that we shall

be able to dcorease it very much n.ore than that, without

a obanfre in the housing and economic oonditions of th*

natives generally.

It also seems to ire that the Natives is definitely

shewing a raa sonablene ss in the manner of his l ife , t rt is

to say that, when he sees that he oan be cured cf a disease

like syphilis, he oomes for treatment and, when the mothers

know that their babies can be benefited by being weighed

every week, they w ill oome in in large numbers. They have

the vision to see and to realise what is good for tnem and

that undoubtedly is most encouraging in the work that we

are undertaking,

Mow the next point triet I would like to speak on is

tuberculosis. As you know, tuberculosis is very common. In

5759

faot, it la mors common among the Natives than it is among any

M other section of the community in this city . Now, the

death rate in 1930 from tuberculosis among the Natives at

New Brighton, was 7 .5 per thousand of population and the

European death rate from tuberculosis was ,62 in the city,

and the Coloured death rate was 2 .8 3 , so that a Coloured

person shewed a very much larger rate than the Europeans d id .

developing an immunity to tuberculosis, just the same as the

Europeans developed an immunity to tuberculosis after the

industrialisation of England in the year 1850 or thereabouts.

The figures whioh we have to justify that in New Brighton

are these* In 1929, the tuberoulosis death rate was 8 ,1 1 .

In 1930, the figure was 7 ,5 , and for the nine months of this

year » our health year ends on the 30 th ^une every year -•*

it is 5 ,9 , shewing an actual and very considerable decline.

Also to bear out the faot that the Native is develop­

ing immunity to tuberculosis, I want to say this. I went

into the figures of notifications within the last two years.

For the two years ending 30th December 1930, (with regard

to n o tificatio n s),! found that there were 144 notifications

and, of these 144 notifications, two oases occurred in eaoh

of six houses. That is to say, there were 144 individuals

I » u b m i t that that s h e w s the N a t iv e 1 a d e v e lo p in g

immunity to tuberculosis and we all know, of course, that

the chronic type of tuberculosis is more common than it used

and the Natives,

There is , however, evidence that the Native is

The Coloured persons were in between the Europeans

affected and of these 144, there were 12 which occurred at

the rate of two per house in six houses. There were no

households where there were more tnan two cases per house.

5760

to be. Professor Lyall Cummings went Into the question

on the Witwatersrand on the Mines and he also bears out the

oontention that the Natives are developing immunity to

tuberoulosis and it seems to me that it is definitely estab­

lished that tuberoulosis is not going to make the Native

inefficient or that it is not going to make it impossible for

him to take his plaoe in modern Industrialism.

DR. ROBERTS: Do you think you are giving it a long

enough spaoe of time to test whether he is beocmlng immune.

Are not perhaps better conditions the cause?- There is evid­

ence, not only have we evidenoe here locally, but there is

evidence on the mines as w ell, that they are developing an

immunity apart from eoonomlo conditions. It seems to have

nothing to do with economic conditions. It is a natural

immunisation. As far as I know, the Natives do ntek develop

scarlet fever, but It is a common disease among Europeans.

Nor measles ?- They get measlee.

Not as badly as an European ?- No, but I have had

oases where they have developed pneumonia from measles, and

I have actually had oases of death from it . Now, perhaps,

I may deal with an old belief among Natives. You probably

know that a Native does not look upon disease in the same

way as we doij> he looks upon it as some sort of intangible

spirit from the outside and, so long as he holds that view,

that it is an intangible spirit, so long, I am afraid , there

Is no hope for him, but I do really feel that that belief is

dying out.and he is now well established, for instance, in

regard to the understanding that thore are certain diseases

which are infectious and that the <!>nly way to deal with

them is by isolation and by treatment of the sick.

There was a question in your questionnaire in regard

5761.

to liquor. At far aa I can make out, liquor doea not pity

any important part in the health of the people of New Brighton.

I have views on the other aide of the question, hut I am not

in a positive to speak authoritatively on hhat.

CHAIRMAN: Have you any connection with Xorsten ?-

No; Korsten is outside out municipality. W ill you allow

me to say a few words now on industrial dlseaaes. I *ay a ay

that we are really not particularly concerned with industrial

diseases in this areaj the only industrial disease which m

ever see here is anthrax, which is owing to the wool and skin

trade. We deal with that, and the treatment ia satisfactory

and it is da a It with at the Infectious Diseases Hospital,

I want to make it olear that I am really only dealing with

New Brighton. There are outside areas which are not so

fortunate as we are and where diseases at various times are

rampant, so I am given to understand. Any resident of New

Brighton oan obtain hospital treatment and also the services

of certain medical specialists and, incidentally, these

specialists, suoh as the specialists in ear, nose, throat

and eye complaints, give their servioes gratia, Just at

they do to any other poor person in the oity of Port Blizabeth.

There is , therefore, no considerable hardship in

this regard, so far as the sick Natives of Hew Brighton are

conoerned. There is , however, hardship frequently when

the head of the family is off work for some time through

sickness or other causes, as much of the Natives have nothing

in reserve.

Then there ia the question of recreation. There are

facilities for recreation which are being improved, but large

numbers of young Natives take no interest whatever in sport,

which fact leads to praotiaes which, to my mind, are harmful

5762.

to themselves and to the raoe. It seems to me, speaking from

my own pb rsonal experience «*— I was brought up among the young

Natives — that the young urban Native is physically not so

virile as the oountry Native. That, at anyrate, is my view

i f I oompare them with the young Natives of my day.

DR. R0!3BT?TS. Yet the Native loves sport ?— Yes, i f

he has the opportunity he w ill take it up. He is very keen on

i t # but what I mean to bring out is there are not sufficient

facilities in the urban areas for sport and recreation. Now

I oome to the question of sanitation. Sanitation is controls d

by the Municipality and well adapted to the present needs of

the people of the location.

The low incidence of intestinal disease, such as enteric

fever, points to the efficiency of the system. The water is

good. We have Municipal water laid on at intervals and, as

far as I know, the water is of excellent standard. How, with

regard to housing, some of the houses in the older parts of

the location ere far from desirable, and in my opinion the

construction of new houses without a corresponding inorease

of the population would inorease the health of the location.

Of course, if you were to build new houses and then

at the same time have an increase of population, you would

not get any further at a l l . It would be a good thing i f

the houses could be improved.

These are the most important points whloh I wish to

refer to, but there are some comments which I should like to

make. First of a l l , may I emphasize infantile mortality.

I do feel that, i f facilities were given for the treatment of

infantile diseases and if the mothers are educated#; then we

can expect a definitely lower deathrate. Then there is another

point of importance which I thought might be of some Interest

5763.

to the Commission, In view of tbe foot that a medical servioe

for Natives Is being discussed at tbe present moment by the

^edical Agaooiation of South A frica . X take it that the

Government is doing something, too* My experience in

regard to the Natives in large centres is th is . For 2i years

I was Medical Officer to the Simmer & Jack Mine in Johannesburg

and, during that time, i was in constant touch with Native

orderlies. The Medical Association recommend that the work

of training medical orderlies should be taken up under a

scheme of medical services.

In the last two years, I have had und^r me, four

; fully trained Native nurses. It seems to me that these

Native nurses and Native orderlies are efficients they are

I keen and they are applying considerable energy and zeal In

dealing with the Native people.

DR. ROBERTS: Are they fully qualified ?- Yes, the

Native nurses at New 3righton are# They hold the Colonial

Medical Certificate, but it seems to me that, with the

present state of development, It is absolutely necessary for

the success of any scheme, that adequate supervision by a

trained medioal man should be provided for. Because medioal

knowledge, of oourse, places a tremendous power Into the

bands of people and I fee l , from the experience which X have

had, that supervision is still necessary over the woric of._ these Native nurses and I feel that any schame which the

Government may think fit to bring in in regard to the health

servioe to the Natives, should contain as an integral part

of it that the work of every nurse, male or female, shall

be personally and constantly supervised by a qualified

medical man.

---- S oontend that daily supervision of every oase is

5764#

ue oe ass ry.

DR. ROBl RTS Black or White ?- -lack or White,

hut it, uiuat he a fully qualified medical man, and of the

kuropeau standard of course. So long as he is a fully

qualified rnoaioel riots mar. of European standard — not any

qualification that Is net up to the European standard. Any

scheme not involving this control *culd, in my own opinion,

be of doubtful value end I sort afraid that it would be open

to abuse.

SW AW fi TAN FIUCE'FT: I. your Hative mortality stat­

istics , do you find that tnere ia a higher rate among illeg it­

imate children ?- Yes.

What do you ascribe tnet to ?- Well, the illegitimate

mother has not got a husband to look after 'he child, and,

aocondly, very' often she is ashaai?d of it , and .furthermore

the child is very often diseased. I think the illegitimate

child is more frequently diseased tnan the legitimate one.

DR. RG3£HT:;: fttf d the mo trio r very often tries to get

rid of it before it Is oora ?- That is so. There are many

factors shioh favour a higher leathrat.e among the illegitimate

than among the legitimate onildran.

SKNA'TOR m i SJEBiBff: Are there many cases ?- Of

illegitimate births — I do not quite recollect the percentage

bi.it the proportion is far higher than ?mong the Europeans,

C M : Have you, in your paper's, got any detailed

figures suoh as population and the actual number of births

and deaths ?- Yes, i have a few of them. I have the

population for last year.

tiave you got the population for ®ew Brighton ?- Yea,

7,527.

MF. LbCASi How was that ascertained ?- The Super­

intendent of the Native looation knows more about it than I do.

5765.

MR. J .F . MoNAMBB, Superintendent of New Brighton

Looation, Jointed Dr. Ferguson for the purpose of supplement­

ing his evidence»

(Mr* MoNamee): We have the looation divided up into

eight different wards. Baoh ward Is under the supervision

of a whoie-ti.ne o ffic ial known as a headman. He is a whole­

time munioipal offio ial and he keeps a register of all the

names in his ward. All these figures are ascertained throughyear

the headman. There is a time in the/when he goes from $K>use

to house and takes the numbers of inhabitants and you oan

take it that these figures on the whole are fairly aocurate...

So it means that you have an annual census ?- Yeg#

Do you know the number of males snd females ?- Yes.

The number of adult males at flew Brighton is 2630, and the

number of adult females 1920.

At what age do you take them to be adults ?- Over 21 ,

That would be approximately ?- Yes. Then, for

children, we have males 1238 and females 1489.

Have you -got tbe number of births and the number of

infantile deaths ?- (Dr. Ferguson): We have got the rates,

but not the aotual numbers*

Now, your death registrations, I take It , must be

complete ?- (Mr. McNamee): Yes.

Because they must have a burial order ?- Yes.

To what extent is your births registration complete ?»

I think it is fairly complete.

Can you be sure that it is absolutely complete ?- No

I could not give you a guarantee of that, but I oan see that it

is fairly accurate.

What means of checking it have you got ?- We have

our nurses in charge of the various districts and then we have

our headmen who are in charge as w ell. The Natives know quite

5766,

well that it is necessary to register a birth and that they

are liable to punishment if they do not. As a matter of

fact, we have got a registration officer at the location.

Would you aay that your registration of births is

correct to about one percent ?- ^e s , I would,

CHAIRMAN: That is a very high degree of accuracy

for births among the Natives ?- Yes, it i s , but I feel it

is pretty aocurate.

Now, is your New Brighton population a fairly stable

one, or are there people who are coming in and going regularly

?“ We have two classes. lie have a permanent population

and a floating population. In the statement which I shall

put before you tomorrow, I refer to the permanent population

as the fixed population.

How large do you think that your permanent population

is T- I should say that it would be about three quarters

of the total, approximately.

Now, your floating population, can you give us any idea

as to how that influx takes plaoe ?- Do ysa mean, where they

come from? - it would be rather d ifficu lt .

No, Can you give us any idea how long they stay. Do

these people come for three or six months ?- They come for

periods of from six, nine to twelve months, Just to find work

to earn some money. Then they may go away and sometime

later thsy return again. We oan say that a certain percentage

always remain behind and eventually be come permanent residents.

They may have their wives left behind them and they form

attachments here. Tbs permanent population is always

being increased from the floating population.

Is your floating population chiefly male?- *e s , they

are ohiefly males*

5767

Is there any appreciable proportion of females ?-

Comparatively speaking, there are very few females.

You would not consider that there is a great deal of

risk of children born outside the urban area being brought in

here when they are babies ?- Ko, J- would not.

In the case of people who some here temporarily and

ultimately settle, would toey not bring their womenfolk and

their babiee with them, would their womenfolk and babies

oome in afterwards ?- Afterwards. It does not occur very

often. Occasionally it does, but it is only a very m all

percentage.

SENATOR VAN HI EKE BfC : Then where do you get the

inorease of your vfomenfolk from Girls grow up and these

men get their wives coming from the 1‘erritorie s . Frequently

a woman w ill follow the husband after a period, especially

if he does not send money.

CHAIRMAN: Now, there is another point. Do the Native

from outside oome here for medioal treatment ?- Ye a , occas­

ionally they do. We try, of course, without being inhuman,

to prevent that, because there is naturally a tendency for

them to oome into the town where tney oan get free medioal

attendance, but the doctor does not give attendance to anyone

unless they present their residential card. There are

exceptions, of course. You do gat persons sometimes who

simply must have attention.

Do you get small ohildren brought in under such condi­

tions ?- Ondy few.

Now, in making up your vital statistics, have you any

method by which you can transfer out deaths that take place

under such oirc amstanoes ?- (Dr. Ferguson): I think we

could*xtt»i*xx* In a certain number of oases. I f it aomes to

6768

my notice tnat a case nuj como in on acooant of sickness of

a baby, I always note it on a card. Records are kept of

every olinioal case and, If a oaac cornea in particularly to

get medical attention, I am generally able to know that th at

is the oas#, — that is to say, If they specially come in for

that purpose, it is sha*n an the record.

In the v ital statistics which you have given us, has

that oorreotion been mtde ?- No.

So that this is st ill a crude death rate against your

locally registered birth rate. -it is the relation between

tne number of aotual deaths of ^stives recorded and the

number of actual births recorded ?- s, that Is so.

Do you find iwre a practise Thich m have oome aaroas

in various tarts of the country, of Native women going back

to their borne a, or to their kraals, at least for their first

confinement ?- Ho, that is not common.

^ou nave not come across it , or have you only come

across it infrequently ?- Vary, vtrj infrequently. I can

remember one case, but that is a ll .

I'hat i« oiie case which cuma under your notice ?- Yes,

So it is quite possible that there may be more oases,

because a matter like ttot would not necessarily come to your

notice t- 1 aee suoh a large number of people every month,

that I think it would come bo wy notioe and X may say that I

have no reason to think thu t it is so.

MR. MGSfSKf: Tne numbe a TThioh you have givai us,

as far as population i3 oonoern, do they only apply to Hew

Brighton ?- Yus, I have only given you the population figure

for New Brighton.

But that is not the whole of your Native population ? •

Ho, that is not the whole of the population.

6769.

What I mean is this -- there are so many also in

servioe in Port Elizabeth who do not go to the looation fet

all — you understand what I mean ?- ihere are Natives living

in the Municipal area as w ell.

DR. ROBERTS: At the North End ?- They are aoattered

about.

GBAIfttlAH: Married Natives with their families ?- Yes.

MR. MOSTEr̂ T: Have you got the oeasus figures ?- I

could not tell you what the number is . You see, they mix up

with the Coloured* I do not think they differentiate.

Have you got the approximate figure of how many Natives

would be employed by the householder of Port Elizabeth and who

live on the premises ?- N0 , I could not g*ve you that.

I am referring to Natives from New Brighton domioiled

with householders ?- There are only about a dozen White

families at New Brighton .^ (Mr. MoNamee): New Brighton is

the Municipal looation proper. There were traders living

there prior to the transfer of that looation. Those people

are proteoted and they still oontinue to trade there.

DR. ROE&RTS: But when they go out, you cannot put

anyone else in their plaoe ?- W ell, I do not know that, the

property belongs to them.

Now, the population in your Municipal area consists

either of the 7 ,000 odd Natives in N«vr Brighton or of Natives

living Inside the European area, or have you any further areas?*

In the Municipality, in the city proper outside the looation,

there are Natives residing, principally, I think, married

Native s.

Yes; inside the Municipal areas, but outside New

Brighton ?- Yes.

Now, have you any other location area or any other area

reserved for Natives inside the Municipal area No, we have

not.

5770.

But outsida the Munioipal area, you have Xorsten ?- Yea,

How, have youany other areas ?- Yea , there ia Walmer,

Bathe ledorp and Salisbury £ark. These are areas outside the

Municipal boundaries.

But they are in fairly olose proximity to the town ?-

Yea, they are fairly nearby*

Is it a feasible proposition for the Natives to walk

in from any of these plaoes, or how do they get In ?- There

are bus services from all these plaoes.

Which is the fartheat distance of these plaoes ?-

Bethelsdorp i s . That is about eight miles away and then Wal­

mer would be the next. That is not far , either,

So that, really your Municipality has control of a

very anall proportion of all the Natives working in JPort E liza­

beth ?- Yea, that ia so, undoubtedly*

la there any likelihood of the boundaries of Port

Elizabeth extending, so that you could control tbe otner areas

as wall Y- Yea, I believe so,

Bow a statement was made to us in a rural area by a

Native medioal man of very considerable standing, that in his

experience, Native women beyond the age of 35 years only bore

inraw-gto* ohildren very exceptionally. Sow, oan you express

any opinion on that, ao far as your experience is concerned.

(Dr, Ferguson): Yes , I may express it In thie way and I

might be more near the truth — that the Native ages more

rapidly than the European an cl that probably the child-bearing

age is common sura tely decreased. I think th t would answer

your question.

Yes; but that looks at the matter from a slightly

different angle. Do you think that they stop bearing child­

ren earlier than the European women do ?- Yea.

Dr. Perguaon

5771.

Now, la that because they age more rapidly ?- Yea,

I think that that is so.

DR. ROBERTS: Do they alwaya do ao ?- Well, not

always•

This doctor said that the age of the Native woman for

bearing children was lower than that of the European women?-

I am afraid that I have not sufficient experience to answer

that. I have no evidenoe that that is ao. I have Native

mothers who are well over 35 years having babieac*- there are

many of them.

CHAIRMAN: Bven among the Europeans, the number of

ohildren born a fter 35 is less than the number before 35 , and

again, bigger than before 30 ?- Yes .

And is there any difference in this respeot between

European and Native women, - that ia really the point whioh

we are trying to get at ?- Not as far as I know.

Sow, in regard to the total number of children borne

by Natives and European women on an average, have you any

opinion to offer ?- I oannot say that I have an opinion, I

have Just got an impression. Of oourse, it is very difficult

to get reliable information on this point, but my impression

is that the Native women are not so fertile as they used to be*

But can you make a comparison between their average

fertility and the average fertility of an European woman ?-

Do you mean, aotual births, you do not mean survivals?

Do you think that, in a period of normal fertility ,

the N a t i v e woman gives birth to more ohildren than the European

woman does ?- Undsr present ciroumstanoes, she does, but

this i s the point - I do not think she has more surviving

ohildren.

MR. LCJCAS: You mentioned that the housing of the

Natives should be improved ?- Yes , I think so,

5772.

In what respects does it need Improvement. We have

not seen your locations yet, but you must have something in

mind when you cask make a statement like that ?- f he re Is

a considerable amount of overcrowding. Mind you, I have

seen worsd housing.

I daresay, but just at the moment, I am taking up your

own point. I thought, from the way you put i t , that you might

be able to assist us by telling us as to where improvement is

needed ?- W& have already had examples. Hear Brighton,

we have what we call Newtown, where we have new houses built

which, from the health point of view are good for the Natives,

and I would like to see all the old kind of houses replaced

by these new kind of houses, but, of course, there are

eoonomic factors whioh I am afraid — —

Are they Municipally owned ?- Y es .

And the others whioh you objeot to, are they Kative

owned ?- No.

They are also Municipally owned ?- Yes ,

Now what Is the principal objection ?- Well, some of

these houses there you cannot properly de-verminise. When

you get a oase of typhus fever, you find It practically im­

possible to fumigate a house whioh has a number of cracks

in i t . You cannot k ill the lice . You oan k il l a louse

in a wall like the one in this building, but you cannot do so

when the wall has all kinds of orevioes In It , or when there

are fleas all over. There are eoonomio faotors whioh Mr.

MoNamee w ill go into and whioh he oan explain muoh more fully

than I oan.

Have you yourself made any report on the housing

question ?- No, but I think* that my ohief, the Meidioal

Offioer of Health of fort Elizabeth haa done so.

MAJOR ANDER3DN: At Grahams town yesterday, we had a

Collection Number: AD1438

NATIVE ECONOMIC COMMISSION 1930-1932, Evidence and Memoranda

PUBLISHER: Collection funder:- Atlantic Philanthropies Foundation

Publisher:- Historical Papers Research Archive

Location:- Johannesburg

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