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Interview with

Keith Parrish and Martha T. Parrish

July 8, 1998

Benson, NC

Lu Ann Jones and Charlie Thompson

Listening for a Change:

North Carolina Communities in Transition

Southern Oral History Program

Interview number K-0230 in the Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Special Collections Library, UNC-Chapel Hill.

2

000 Introduction to tape and participants in interview. LAJ

says she'll ask Charlie to take the lead. Let's begin with

Keith Parrish's farm background and how he decided to get

into farming.

009 KP born and raised about quarter mile down road, next house

on left. His father and grandfather were farmers and his

mother's parents were farmers and their parents were

farmers. "As many generations back as I can trace, we were

all farmers." When he graduated from high school and NC

State University, he didn't think he was going to be a

farmer, didn't intend to farm. That was furtherest thing

from his mind after growing up on farm. Had opportunity to

open a NAPA parts business with a neighbor in Coats when he

graduated from college. They ran business for three or four

years and he couldn't stand being inside and shut up, plus

building a business from scratch hard work.

020 He and partner sold NAPA business and his father

receptive to idea of him farming. His older brother farming

with father at time and younger brother joined farm, too.

Father retired in 1975. In a year or so, younger brother

decided farming not for him; quit and took job with NCSU

Extension Service. Older brother and Keith farmed together

until 1982, when times were tight and tough and difficult

for both to stay in. He's only Parrish still farming. His

father had seven brothers and sisters. "I'm the last


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Parrish to farm, I guess, unless one of my sons decides to

come back."

034 Sons: Kevin is 23 and Jason is 18. Kevin graduated

from East Carolina University and got job with construction

company in Greensboro. Jason is going to UNC-Wilmington.

He thinks if things had been better with farming and tobacco

program, Kevin might have come back to farm. But when Kevin

asked Keith if he could pay him what he'd been offered, he

said he could not and "didn't have that much to offer him,

so far as security. Which is a shame, for the security not

to be there anymore."

041 That's why he's staying so involved with policies of

tobacco, trying to get stability. Now it's an "uneasy time"

for tobacco farmers in NC.

048 During the season, what's typical day? Is Keith

directly involved in the work?

049 "We work from can't see to can't see, I think is about

the best way to put it." His day usually starts about 6

a.m. and usually lasts until 6:30 or so at night. Crew he

has now, the H2A workers, like to make 11 or 12 hours a day

six days a week if they can, so they try to do that. Keith

doesn't do as much as he used to; he trusts H2A workers

better than some of the help he's had in the past. He also

has a couple of guys who have been with him for years who

take a lot of the load off. He suffers from rheumatoid

arthritis, so it's not easy for him to get out and do manual

work he used to do.


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060 "I enjoy this life better than anything else; don't

think there's any other way to raise family other than

farming as being ideal for a kid to be raised up in." Older

son discovered that growing up on farm was an asset when he

applied for job because he had grown up with strong work

ethic and running machinery. Employer told him that was why

he won out over other job candidates. "That made me kind of

proud, to know at least you're getting something out of this

country living and farm orientation."

072 Parrish sons' friends have helped them on farm. But

now school calendar doesn't lend itself to hiring school

kids. He thinks their working on farm taught

responsibility, respect for work. "I know that it's a good

way to raise a family, and I hate to see that gone and I

hate to see anything put that in jeopardy."

078 When did he start getting involved in national

organizations and what motivated him?

080 National organization got started in March. Parrish

was a Phillip Morris Leadership participant. In 1985,

Phillip Morris came out with program that they would send

some of their farm group folks to different training during

winter months when not that busy farming. He signed up and

was chosen for first class. He went to Brazil, Washington,

to Richmond to their plant, to NC State for training. Three

or four sessions each winter. NC State offered public

speaking courses and other leadership courses.


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090 "We learned there was more to things than our own

little neighborhood and that farming was actually a

worldwide business, it wasn't just a local thing." He

thinks these classes inspired participants to be more

involved. President of each state's Tobacco Growers'

Association has been through the Phillip Morris course.

It's an alumni group that meets during winter for weekend.

098 Last winter decided to start a national association.

Five flue-cured states and one burley state, Indiana. He's

been involved with state Tobacco Growers' Association since

its inception, about 15 years ago. He was elected to board

10-12 years ago, and after holding various jobs elected

president in 1994. 1994 was a year when had a "very serious

confrontation going on" between amount of tobacco in pool

and facing large cuts. He went back and forth to

Washington; he figured he was gone from home about 150 days

that year, lobbying in Raleigh and Washington.

112 In 1994, the players in the confrontation: the

manufacturers and growers and Congress, Jesse Helms and

others who were trying to put the players together. The

problem was that over years, growers had built up a lot of

tobacco in stabilization stock—or pool—and that meant they

would face a huge cut in quota, which means that rent rates

would go up, "very similar to what we may be facing now."

Met in Washington and trying to come to agreement with

manufacturers so they would buy out the stocks and prevent


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growers from having a huge cut. And eventually that's what

happened after lots of negotiating.

Was he on side of manufacturers? "No, we were on the

side of the farmers. You're all in this together. Just

like it is now, with the issues that we're facing now—the

manufacturers like to call it a tobacco family, because

there's different aspects. You've got the grower, the

manufacturer, the leaf dealers, the warehouseman, and the

workers—so they call it the tobacco family. But it's kind

of a tightrope walking deal with you're talking about the

family, when you're talking about people's money and their

livelihood. What is good for one is not always good for

everybody, but sometimes is. We want actually the same

thing they want. The manufacturers want stability and we

do, too. We'd like to be able to survive whatever happens

out of this. We're still growing a legal crop, and it's

something we've always been proud of doing and doing a good

job at it. And there's really not anything else here that

we can do. We've tried other crops, and there's just not

anything that we can grow here that'll take the place of

tobacco. So we're hoping that we can reach some kind of an

agreement through Congress to compensate us for what we lost

and be able to continue to grow. It may not be as large a

scale as we have in the past. Who knows? It may be with a

program or without a program. There's so much uncertainty

out there right now. Everybody's just on edge and nobody

knows what the future holds and that's a very bad place to


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be. It's just like you're looking at a company that you're

working for who may be going to lay off folks someday and

you can see the handwriting on the wall, but you don't know

when that day is. So you just keep on going; you have to.

You don't have any choice. Even though it's a kind of bleak

outlook, you got to keep planting, you've got to keep going,

you got to keep trying to hang on."

143 Charlie Thompson notes there's "no unemployment."

Keith: "No, there's no unemployment for tobacco farmers."

Farmers between a rock and a hard place. He thinks

manufacturers hold the key. They can help farmers to

survive and buy enough tobacco that growers don't have a

cut, or they can buy the bare minimum that they have to buy

and growers may wind up losing a lot of farmers this fall."

149 Charlie asks if, after visiting tobacco growers abroad,

does Keith have the sense that companies really need the

American tobacco farmer in this part of country? No matter

what, will tobacco be grown here?

154 Keith thinks tobacco will be grown here, but amount is

in question. Manufacturers can use Brazilian and Zimbabwe

type tobacco but they need a certain amount of American

tobacco because of its particular qualities and chemistry.

US also a stable place for manufacturers to buy tobacco;

government program has always guaranteed supply of tobacco.

"They're not looking at a government overthrow that's going

to lose everything they've got invested in a foreign

country." He thinks tobacco will be grown in US.


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169 Charlie: Anything special about this land near Coats

and Bailey's Crossroads that creates reason for tobacco

being here and makes it special?

170 Keith: sandy soils that tobacco likes; climate usually

gets good rains. Tobacco began when people leaving behind

Granville wilt. He doesn't think that's the case with his

family. Tobacco crop unique to NC and east coast because

that's where it got started and not able to adapt further

west; mountains kind of a barrier to tobacco. Burley

tobacco grown in mountains is different from flue-cured.

189 Charlie would like to hear a tobacco farmer describe

flue-cured tobacco.

191 Flue-cured tobacco cured with flues. When he was in

Brazil in 1985, still fired barns with wood. Flues are

metal pipes that run from furnace at each end of barn into

barn to take heat into barn; started with old flue-type

barns and curing with wood. One old barn left on grounds;

log barn and can see hole where flue used to be. When this

type of curing, grew a lot less tobacco. More small

farmers, "but the reason they were smaller is they couldn't

hold out enough to go through all the labor to do it. One

reason they had large families to help them to grow the

crops. They would share back and forth between the

communities."

206 Keith says log barn over 100 years old. Granddaddy

Denning probably built it. Use for storage now. Don't see

many of these barns left.


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213 Bulk barns began to replace flue barns in late 1960s.

Before, interim stage, used oil heat in flue barns; heat

radiated from oil heater. Then to gas burner, which was

more efficient and put out quicker heat. Then to bulk

barns.

222 Labor changed with tobacco barns. Initially started

hand looping the tobacco, just as they do now in Brazil.

Like rolling back the clock when go to Brazil. From hand-

looping and hanging on sticks in barn to something like

sewing machine to string tobacco on sticks; "that saved a

lot of time and labor." Graduated from that point to riding

harvesters, so people would loop while they were riding.

Eventually went to mechanical harvesting and bulk barns.

Bulk barns haven't changed too much. Experiment with small

boxes and big boxes, but basically hasn't changed since late

1960s and early 1970s. Most are gas-fired with big fans

that force heat through them. Can put as much tobacco

in one bulk barn now as used to put in two stick barns. "It

helped people to start getting bigger and families started

getting smaller and people started increasing their

allotment and their acreage." Flue-cured different from

burley, which still supports smaller farmers, "Saturday

farms." Use tobacco as secondary income. But in eastern

NC, tobacco "is our primary income, our primary way of life

and that's what keeps us going and pays the bills, is the

tobacco. So you have to get more and more to be able to

survive, and you're able to do that through mechanization."


10

250 LAJ asks about different sources and systems of labor,

which he had mentioned before formal interview began. Could

he take us from time he was a kid and describe who was doing

the work in the field?

255 When he was a kid and just before, the way his father

describes it, "it was basically families trading work, back

and forth. They hired very little labor from outside."

Most of farm people depended on themselves and neighbors and

traded work to put in the few acres they had.

By time he was coming along, farmers were starting to

get bigger but not as mechanized as today. His family was a

30-acre farmer, which was fairly big, when he was growing

up. Had about 30 stick barns that they owned or rented from

other farmers. That was a lot of work, just to look after

barns.

When go from five or six acres and hand labor, "you had

to start seeking labor elsewhere, so folks would either get

it in local towns—Dunn or Coats or wherever they could find

any local labor—and if it was not available there, Dad went

as far as Fayetteville and would have a little small house,

tenant house, somewhere on the farm that we would put some

guys in. Get four or five guys and bring them back on

Sunday afternoon and they'd work all week long and take them

back on Friday afternoon."

273 Charlie: What kind of guys were those?

274 "Most of them were black folks that we would pick up

down there. They were not that dependable, either. A lot


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of them would be folks that didn't have a job anywhere else

and they kind of made out the best way they could until

summer got here, knowing that farmers would come and pick

them up and work them. I remember having a lot of trouble

sometime with some of the help here. They'd be used to

drinking Thunderbird wine in Fayetteville, and bring them up

here and they'd get hold of some of these guys around would

supply them with some white liquor or whatever, and we'd

have one or two cutting and fighting, back and forth, and it

was not very pleasant to be around some of those guys. I

heard some of my first cuss words out in the tobacco patch

with these guys, because they didn't much care who was

there, who listened, who didn't, whatever."

284 LAJ: Was there a particular place in Fayetteville

where people would go to look for people to hire?

285 "I think Dad just knew where he was supposed to go.

There was certain street corners or whatever where he would

find them. Once he ever picked them up the first time then

he would know which house to go to and everybody would be

there waiting. It was not the best places in the world and

it wasn't the best side of town, I remember that much. Dad

used to always gun his muffler so that his truck would sound

different than anybody else's and he would go through town

and blow the horn and race the engine and they would know it

was him that was coming. I remember them telling me about

'hearing you coming two blocks away. We were getting

ready.' We used a lot of that type help for a long time.


12

295 When he and brothers started farming together, crew

leaders had started becoming part of labor picture. "One

lady in particular would bring them up on a bus and go over

to Crossroads and pick up five or six

people to help you." Labor would be coming from

Fayetteville. Crew leader would bring workers up every day.

They weren't very good help, either.

300 Influx of Mexicans began in mid-1970s and early 1980s.

"And they were so much better than the local help that we'd

been having because they were very dependable and they

really wanted to work."

304 Charlie: first Mexicans were migrants?

305 Yes. Keith speculates that many in US illegally. "But

they were just coming through and working for crew leaders,

but they would be the true migrants." Used those folks for

a lot time, through a crew leader down the road. "She would

always bring enough help that we could go pick up some folks

from her to use." Crew leader was Mexican.

315 "Then they came with—the H2A program is not that old.

I can't remember now what year it got started. This is my

first year with them. I went through a time of trying to

use local help in betwixt, in between, because even the

migrant help that you got became more demanding and more

independent than they were at one time because they new they

were better help than the folks we'd been using locally. So

they'd hit you at a point where you'd be vulnerable, near

the end of the season or whatever, and say, okay, you're


13

putting too much tobacco in your barns and it's taking too

long and if you don't pay us more or there's some suckers in

this field, if you don't pay us more, we're going to quite.

And a farmer's in a desperate situation when it's like that

and it doesn't take many of those threats and many of those

things to happen for you to look another way. A lot of

farmers went to mechanization through primers, but it's just

not as good a quality tobacco and it does not do as good a

job in some years, most years, and it does to do it by hand.

So there's been a lot of changes that have gone through this

labor situation. It's like one of our other neighbors told

me the other day, he said, 'I'll quit before I go back to

any other way, before I'll use any other help than H2As.

The headaches are just not there anymore because theses

folks are here to work and get money to send back home to

their families. They're not here to play around, and they

can't threaten you. 'If the wind blows your tobacco over,

we're going to quit.' They can't do that; they don't have

anywhere to go other than help you or go back to Mexico."

338 If H2A workers dissatisfied with him, they can go to

another farmer and contract with him under no penalty.

There would have to be a good reason to break contract.

"These folks are good guys and they seem to be the type of

people who want to help and want to—they see what you're

trying to do, which is make a living, and they try to help

you do that. They're eager to try to help, and that's


14

something a little unusual if you've never worked them

before. Times have definitely changed over the years."

355 Keith's father still alive. LAJ asks how far back

farmers in family?

360 At least three generations. His parents have Winnebago

and travel quite a bit now; at Jordan Lake now.

366 Charlie asks what Keith hopes will happen with tobacco

program. What is he working toward? Charlie: "Obviously

you have hope or you wouldn't be involved politically. In

your ideal scenario, what would this community look like?

Can it support a number of farmers and or they going to get

fewer and far between? What will it look like, ideally?"

370 Keith: "Ideally, it won't change won't change that

much. You're talking ideally, you hope the tobacco demand

would still be there and to be able to continue pretty much

as you are now with basically the same number of farmers you

have now. But realistically, I think we all have to face

the fact that it's just not going to happen. I don't see

that that can continue with the attitude of folks in

Washington, DC, toward the tobacco farmers themselves and

towards the manufacturers in particularly. I don't think

they have that much against us, but just the manufacturers

and that kind of trickles down to us, is far from being a

good relationship right now." Congressmen, senators, health

group folks, America right now doesn't trust manufacturers

that much now. And that makes it bad for farmers who are

trying to sell the product to manufacturers, because they're


15

unstable. And as long as their livelihood, business-wise,

toward their stockholders is unstable, farmers' livelihood

will be unstable, too. What Keith is trying to do is "to

make sure that farmers come out of this thing as unscathed

as possible." There will be some farmers, through

attrition, who will not continue to farm, no matter what.

Some will quit if get money through government buy-out, so

that will be that much more tobacco that other farmers can

grow.

400 "I see that it will probably be more consolidated than

it is now and fewer small farms than there are now."

Doesn't know how many farmers there are now. Median age of

farmers now is 56, so close to retirement. Also a lot of

younger farmers who are in debt as got started and tried to

get bigger and get enough tobacco to make a living, and

those people have got to service those debts. Everytime

there is cut in quota, the rent for tobacco allotment goes

up. Banker wants farmers to have certain number of pounds

of tobacco "to cash flow" and to service debt. A lot of

farmers now aren't telling bankers what they're paying for

rent, "so they're just buying time, waiting for this

government settlement." He fears that that strategy is

going to catch up with them.

430 People who rent out their tobacco allotments are often

older farmers who use rent to supplement incomes. A lot of

farmers know how many pounds of tobacco they have to tend to

service their debt load and to cash flow, so they pay


16

whatever it takes because quota cut. So great competition

to rent tobacco land and that increases price for rent.

Each cut in quota means there's more farmers in competition

for those limited pounds, which drives the price of rent up.

467 Parrish says that kind of competition is happening in

his area, but speculates that's worse to the east, around

Wilson and Rocky Mount, where rent per pound is 60 and 65

cents whereas in his area it's 45 cents. Average 2200-2400

pounds per acre times 45 cents a pound, equals rent per

acre. Over $1,000 an acre, "and that's a lot of money just

for the privilege of growing tobacco." So there are a lot

of people who say do away with tobacco program, get payment

through settlement, and then grow tobacco and sell on world

market and take chance and not pay such high rent. "And the

bigger the farmers probably the more than attitude exists."

Can't borrow money on crop note anymore; have to put up a

farm or put up something that's been in your family for a

long time.

502 Martha T. Parrish comes in.

513 LAJ wonders if farmers will just sell land and develop

for housing. Would that be realistic here? Or what would

be a realistic safety net?

521 Keith: "There's already a lot of farms around here

that are growing houses now that used to be growing

tobacco." Just up road he used to tend field where houses

are now. That's probably about only people around there

could do. But supply and demand: if everybody's farm loses


17

value as farm and is put on market, value will be low.

Right now, if farm comes up for sale usually a farmer can't

put it; usually a Realtor buys it because they can pay more.

540 Martha: a Realtor told her this morning that one acre

of property given to them was worth $15,000 or more now

because of its location. Purchaser would probably live in

Harnett County and work in Raleigh.

555 No other crop than tobacco can sustain a family in this

part of NC. If farmers switched to growing tobacco, people

in Florida and California can produce so much quicker than

NC farmers can, then market flooded by time they harvest.

"If everybody whose growing tobacco starts growing

vegetables, you can't give it away. We've tried different

things here. We've tried sweet potatoes and pickles and

just about anything you can name. Even some off the wall

stuff—primrose, for example, that we got into trying to

grow something else—and it's just not there. You just

can't do it. For various reasons, it's just not feasible to

try to do that. So tobacco is the only thing that keeps

farms viable here in Harnett County and Johnston County and

this entire area through here. It's the only thing that

makes a farmer farm." Grow wheat and barley on the side;

"tobacco's the key." Bumper stickers that say "Tobacco Pays

the Bills" is really true.

585 Martha: at a meeting at Hilton Head was told that

somewhere children not allowed to wear clothing or anything

that suggested tobacco.


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Keith: when they growing up, nearly all children

either from farm family or if families lived and worked in

mill in Erwin, they would work on tobacco farm in summer.

Not, not that many farm kids anymore. Now a small number of

farmers growing as much tobacco as entire community used to

grow. "Times have changed so drastically so quickly. So

it's already getting to be more condensed and more

mechanized and fewer people growing the same amount of crop.

And I think that trend will probably continue to a point, to

a degree. But it's hard to see how it could get much less,

farmer-wise, than it is now through this area."

[End Tape I, Side 1; begin Tape I, Side 2]

001 Charlie asks Keith to name farmers in community. Names

farmers down road. Bob Nordan, Gary Denning, himself, Sandy

Langdon, Danny Watkins, Ronnie Adams (sells fertilizer,

too). Stacy and Betty Johnson; Joey Johnson. About a dozen

farmers through there.

007 Charlie: Are there ways that you see each other to

talk?

008 Keith: "Not like we used to." No country stores that

used to be meeting places. Plus, farmers more independent

and each has own gas pumps at home; go to Wal-Mart and buy

Nabs and drinks and put them in own refrigerators to supply

for help; you run into one another up and down road and at

fertilizer place. People don't visit like used to. When he


19

was kid, his parents would go to another farmer's house to

play Rook. Everybody's lifestyle has change; more mobile

than used to be.

017 Charlie: Does that relate to people trying to undercut

one another with rent?

018 Keith: Probably some. But also kids so busy and that

keeps parents busy. "Everybody's also wanting to go,

something they got to do." And that's different that it

used to be; children came home and farmed. Jason at Grange

Camp this week; last year he went to two camps.

037 Martha recalls 4-H camp fondly. LAJ remembers going to

4-H camps at Betsy-Jeff Penn 4-H camp, too, and still has

cutting board she made there. Martha remembers how

important it was to keep cabins clean because there was a

competition. Kitchen duty. Reminisce. Farmers' kids went.

070 Martha grew up about six miles away; grew up with Keith

and other farm kids. 4-H camps way to get away from farm

work. Her daddy always had something for children to do.

She had two brothers. Older brother could not harness horse

and when she was growing up they had mules and one little

tractor. Her family late getting tractor. Her brother

would beg her to harness that mule for him, "because if you

didn't have it ready by the time Daddy got back with help,

he would just be mad and upset because everything had to go

like clockwork." She was a little girl; she would have to

stand on milk stand to put harness on.


20

081 Martha's family farm rented out now; none of family

farms. A piece of it has a couple of apartments on it,

rented out to Campbell College; her brother built those

apartments.

098 Charlie asks about church.

102 Keith: Church dependent on tobacco to make payments

and cash flow. "The church is now, might as well face it,

like a business." You've got pay preacher's salary; got to

keep up manse and pay bills. "It's just like a small

business, really, that you have to look after." Keith has

been an elder and deacon; and Martha a deacon now. Church

is dependent on tobacco and health of local economy.

112 Health group advocates, Tobacco-Free Kids,and tobacco

farmers have met and talked. Efforts to open dialogue

between Concerned Friends for Tobacco from Virginia and

health group folks. Farmers showed health advocates how

dependent communities are on tobacco. He thinks some of

that dialogue good. But hard for farmers to trust health

group folks a lot. A lot of health advocate groups say they

don't want to hurt farmers, "but everything is so

intertwined together. They want to keep the communities

whole—that's one of their favorite sayings they do. But if

you make the tobacco farmer himself whole, he'll make the

communities whole." Tobacco farmers spend their money in

the community.

137 Requests for community funding but he has problem with

that because he fears the money won't get to where it's


21

needed. Tobacco politics about money. "They say it's to

stop kids from smoking, etcetera, etcetera, but when it gets

down to the bottom line it's all about money. Who's going

to get this much money to fund this project? Who's going to

get this much money for community redevelopment? Who's

going to get this much money for smoking cessation projects?

The list just goes on and on about what's happening in

Washington, what's going on with our livelihood. It's just

very simple to me to compensate the farmers for what's

happening to them, their loss in income or whatever may

occur, and try to make us as stable as we can into the

future, and we'll make the communities whole."

150 If farmers did vote out tobacco program, people who are

now getting rent for tobacco allotment and the value of

their land could evaporate overnight.

160 Tobacco program has been good to farmers for a long

time and given stability. So different attitudes among

farmers about how policy should go. He thinks most farmers

want the money they need to survive and take chances without

tobacco program. He thinks farmers should be compensated

because of uncertainty, no one knows if there will be a

market for tobacco. Trying to compete on world market, up

against farmers who governments are subsidizing them.

173 Martha asks if pesticide regulations aren't a lot more

lax in other countries than US? And people don't think

about that.


22

179 Keith: other countries have few controls over

chemicals applied to tobacco. He wants "farmers to be able

to be secure and for the farming community to remain as much

as it can now as possible into the future." Almost

anybody's guess what will happen.

188 Keith not surprised McCain Bill killed; his group did

not support it. Bad piece of legislation. Tobacco program,

manufacturers, etc. intertwined. Holds a golf ball and

likens interdependence of various tobacco interests to

rubber bands inside golf ball. If you start picking at part

of tobacco, the program starts destroying itself and it's

designed that way so that everything stays in place. NC so

dependent upon tobacco that it's hard to anticipate effect

if tobacco gone.

216 Charlie: has there been a church voice present in

these conversations and if so, is church his allies or are

they silent?

220 Keith: church voice in these places channeled through

Farm Worker Services and Council of Churches and they're

more allied toward health group advocates than toward the

farmers. They might argue with him on that. Health group

folks say they want to save farmers and communities, but

he's never known one of those people who didn't want to get

rid of smoking and tobacco in US, period. That's always

their motive and objective. He's somewhat skeptical of

relationship. He and Rev. Warren Bock help roundtable

discussion at Ebenezer Church; got a mediator out of


23

Fayetteville to come up and talked about labor issues. Talk

about carrying roundtable idea to other churches, but didn't

happen after Warren had heart problems. Farmers from all

over state came to Ebenezer Church three or four times and

"we talked about our differences." Efforts like that are

good, as are discussions sponsored by Concerned Friends for

Tobacco.

245 Keith thinks sitting down, eye to eye, is good. He

found that out as he talked with congressmen rather than

aides. He talked with Sen. Lugar himself and one of main

reasons tobacco farmers able to get some funding in

provisions he proposed is because they were able to explain

impact that loss of tobacco would have on communities.

256 Keith says he has not really seen a church presence at

these tobacco meetings except through health group folks,

"and through people like myself. I like to think I'm there

representing the churches, too." Tobacco might be a hot

potato that churches don't want to address.

270 Charlie says the health groups he's heard and talked to

think it's possible for farmers to convert to alternative

crops. He knows one organization trying to promote

alternative crops.

275 Keith thinks that's ridiculous. "We know what we can

grow and what we can't grow. We've tried it. They seem to

think you can take tobacco and do away with that and put

sweet potatoes and onions and squash." Market not there for

these crops. One farmer in this community could grow enough


24

vegetables to satisfy Raleigh. Johnston County center of

sweet potato farming and ship to New York; but everybody

switched to sweet potatoes they'd be so cheap you could give

them away.

289 Charlie: what about hogs and poultry?

290 Keith: Moratoriums. They're here. Denning boys have

turkey and chicken houses and hog houses. Joey Johnson has

chicken houses. But livestock doesn't mingle with housing

developments. "The sentiment with that—if you can smell

it, it's bad." They've had problems with neighbors when

spread chicken manure on his field for organic fertilizer.

Martha remembers how bad it smelled. She fielded calls from

neighbors who were upset about odor. She explained about

manure being spread on field and how odor would dissipate

with rain.

318 Keith says limit to livestock operations—economic and

environmental limits.

321 Charlie raises issue of independence/being under

contract as livestock producer.

323 Keith says people suggesting that one day tobacco

farmers will be under contract to manufacturers and it well

may be that is what will happen. He doesn't think

manufacturers will want to contract on individual basis with

farmers; will want a go-between to do that. Being on a

contract system with a manufacturer would be a little

different than scale of investment that livestock operations

represent. Investment in chicken and house houses "is


25

astronomical compared to the income you get back. Usually

the folks that I know, time you get them paid for there's

something new that they want you to do that requires more

money being spent. Everything's a gamble when you farm."

337 Charlie asks if more of a gamble than ten years ago?

Yes, much more. Martha says weather has changed on

them some. Plus, investment farmers make has increased.

They had to buy barns and tractors from Keith's daddy when

he retired. Seems like bigger investment in farming, but

not making as much money.

Keith: Profit margin not what it was 12 or 15 years

ago. One of their neighbors brags that he paid for a farm

in ten years and they're still paying on a farm they bought

18 years ago. Their tobacco greenhouse cost $40,000, "but

if you're going to stay in the business, you got to do these

things." Migrant house cost $15,000 to $20,000, because he

wanted a nice one and didn't want legal aid hunting him

down.

361 Martha: She has problem with high standards required

for labor. She likes H2A workers, but she doesn't think

it's quite fair that they have to meet such standards.

Farmers have to provide housing, water, electricity, fans.

384 Keith has trouble with some of the "stupid regulations"

that govern labor housing. Why have to take water samples

when on county water supply? Fifteen hundred gallon septic

tank system, which is unrealistic in sandy land.


26

394 Charlie comments that regulations generalized rather

than specific to place.

395 Martha: "I want them to stay in a decent place. I

want them to have a good place. I would be miserable if

they were not staying in a decent place."

400 Charlie says there must have been people who have not

treated them well to inspire these regulations.

Keith: There are and they're still here. Mentions

News and Observer article recently about Johnston and

Sampson county farmers that legal services had been to.

There has been a lot of abuse and not just Mexicans. Recent

attention on black camps—Haitians and Jamaicans and local

blacks and practically had in slavery. His workers make

$300 and something a week. Crew leader who is selling

workers dope, wine, food and exploiting.

415 Martha: They say some of that when they had crew

leader. "We didn't really like it, but when you've got to

have help, you've got to have help." She likes H2A so much

better.

419 Charlie: H2A workers deal directly with farmer without

middle person.

420 Martha: Their workers have not asked them to drink.

"You want to treat them like you'd like to be treated. And

I have no problem with that." But seems like ought to be

able to use local help.

427 Last year tried to use local help and worst experience

they've ever had. Keith's blood pressure up all summer.


27

Doctor would tell him to get rid of stress, but impossible

with crop in field. But these workers ready to go to work

in morning. They have families that they send money back

to.

442 Charlie wonders if these workers come from farms and

hope in long run to go back and make a living on their own

farms.

444 Keith: "That would be interesting to know." Charlie

says maybe he could talk to them since he speaks some

Spanish. Martha says they are always asking the workers if

they're happy, if everything is okay.

450 Keith: Mexican bakery in Coats and workers have

gotten to know the owner. If they've got a questions, they

all go over there. But still hard to communicate. Bakery

has been there about a year.

460 Keith tells about taking worker to doctor and need for

interpreter. He would like to be able to speak more

Spanish. Not work-related.

488 Martha: workers helped her clean out barn. She was

out there with them. Everytime she went to pick up

something they would take it out of her hand. They didn't

want her to do anything.

495 Keith: At first, Martha skeptical of H2A workers but

now is won over. And at first she didn't like fact their

trailer in back of their house. She just didn't know what

to expect. Next year they plan to have yard around trailer

looking a little better; put up volleyball goal. Ten


28

workers; six work for them and four for another farmer.

Workers build patio for her and did an excellent job. No

one wanted to stand around. She's "completely sold on" H2A

workers. She hopes they get the same workers next year.

532 Charlie: Are they part of community now?

533 Martha: "Not yet." Keith says "H2A folks probably

will never really be a part of the community. They're a

visitor." He thinks that's the problem that Warren Bock and

others have with H2A, they're always visitors and they

separate families. "I can feel for that and I empathize

with that." But he's also told Warren that these workers

are here making more money in a month's time than they make

in a year in Mexico and they can send money back and improve

their lives there so much more by being here for a few

months. If they couldn't come to US and work, they may be

in starvation in Mexico. Martha says she would love to go

and see where workers come from in Mexico.

553 Keith: When workers are here temporarily, hard for

them to be part of the community. Martha doesn't think

people would treat them wrong. If they wanted to go to

church, that would be okay with her. Translation would be

main problem. Keith says there might be some resistance

from some people in church. Martha says black visitor with

Farm Workers Ministry came and joined choir and people liked

him. He's different but he's got a good personality and

everybody likes him. Martha considers him part of community

now.


29

576 LAJ asks if there are many Latinos who originally came

as migrant workers and are now immigrants? For example, who

is supporting the Mexican bakery?

582 Keith: "What happened is, several years ago we

farmers, we could go with some of the Mexican people who

were here who were not legal and make them legal by signing

their cards and saying, yes, they've been here this summer,

last summer, working on the farm and we need to continue

that. We could sign the paperwork and they would become

legal. I know you remember when that was a few years ago.

What happened is farmers did that and then most of that

workforce, when they became legal, went and started work for

construction. So there's an awful lot of folks who are in

the painting and building and that type work now that are

paying more than farmers and it's a year-round thing, they

don't have to move around—who are now supporting the bakery

over here. There are lot more Latino groups here now than

there were several years ago, and it's because of that. Now

they can be here more openly and they don't have to move

around and do the migrant work. They can do legal work

through companies. That's good; in some ways it was a good

program, but also it did not do its intent which was to make

it legal for them to help us on the farm. And you can't

blame them for wanting to better themselves."

613 Martha a media assistant in library. She sees growing

number of Latino kids in Coats school. Ninety to 100 in

school.


30

[End of interview, July 8, 1998]


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