Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 2 NOVEMBER 1948

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

H>90 Matrimonial CaUlles, &c., Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Questions.

TUESDAY, 2 NOVEMBER, 1948.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Brassington, Fortitude Valley) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

STAFF OF AMALGAMATED LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) asked the Secretary for Public Works-

"What provision, if any, does he pro­pose to make for the absorption of shire clerks and other employees of local authorities whose employment may be affected by the proposed local-authority amalgamations and changes~''

Hon. W. POWER (Baroona) replied-'' These matters are in a preliminary

stage and no final decision has yet been made. The hon. member is anticipating things.''

HOUSES OWNED BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT PUR CELL.

Mr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' 1. Has his attention been drawn to a report of a court action as published in the 'Courier-Mail' of 29 October, 1948, wherein Detectiv J Sergeant Purcell is reported to have admitted that he had had eleven houses built for him in Brisbanef

' ' 2. Will he inquire how Purcell received permission to build such eleven houses and the special circumstances in the case, if any~

'' 3. What was Purcell 's salary during the last five years'"

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers) replied-

'' 1 to 3. I have read the report pub­lished in the 'Courier-Mail' on 29 October, 1948, of the evidence given by Detective Sergeant Purcell during a recent prosecu­tion. The hon. member must be aware that newspapers do not report fully the whole of the proceedings or evidence in these cases. Detective Sergeant PureeD has reported to the Commissioner of Police as follows :-(1) The only property (free­hold) owned by Detective Sergeant Purcell, his wife, or any member of the family, at the present time is the house in which he is residing with his wife and six children. Such freehold property is in the joint names of himself and his wife. (2) Over a period of years he purchased certain freehold land, subdivided it and sold various allotments. The land was not purchased in one transaction, and he, to the be&t of his recollection, has not had any financial interest in more than two ten­able houses at the one time. The buildings on these allotments in which he was interested during the transactions totalled seven, and in each instance necessary plans were submitted to the City Council, and other legal formalities complied with.

Questions. [2 NoVFJMBE:&.] Supply.

\3) The salary and allowances paid to Detective Sergeant Purcell over the last five years were in accordance with the Police A ward for a member of the service ·of his rank. This award is published in the 'Queensland Government Gazette' and is readily available to the hon. member.''

CONTROL OF BRISBANE FOOTPATHS.

Mr. AIKENS {Mundingburra) asked the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' 1. Is it the duty of the police to see that footpaths in Brisbane are kept clear of fruit, vegetables, pot-plants, and various other articles of goods and merchandise displayed for sale T

'' 2. Is it the duty of the police to see that footpaths in Brisbane are kept free from congestion and other impediments to the unimpaired pedestrian use of such footpaths~

'' 3. Are salesmen and shop-attendants openly and vociferously plying their trade considered to be pedestrians and as such entitled to use such footpaths and cause congestion T

'' 4. Are people standing crowded round such footpath salesmen considered to be pedestrians lawfully using such footpath~

'' 5. If the answer to Question 2 is 'yes' and the answers to Questions 3 and 4 are 'no,' will he give instructions to the police to enforce the law~"

Hon. A. JONES {Charters Towers) replied-

" 1 to 5. A general survey is being made at the present. time in connection with obstructions on footpaths in the metropoli­tan area. This refers not only to fruit and vegetable vendors, but also to news vendors, stalls for charitable purposes, and the sellers of art union tickets. It is the duty of the police at all times to see that there is free movement of traffic, both pedestrian and otherwise, through the city streets, and as far as possible the police will carry out such duty."

LATE RUNNING OF TALWOOD-BRISBANE STOCK TRAIN.

Mr. SP ARKES {Aubigny) asked the Minister for Transport-

'' Is it a fact that the stock train which left Talwood on Tuesday morning, 26 October, and was due to arrive Brisbane at 6.5 p.m. on Wednesday, did not arrive until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, or approximately 17~ hours late on a journey of 338 milesf If so, what was the cause of this delay~''

Hon. W. POWER {Baroona-Secretary for Public Works, Housing, and Local Government), for Hon. J. E. DUGGAN (Toowoomba), replied-

'' The stock which left Tal wood after noon on Tuesday, 26 October, 1948, for Cannon Hill left Bungunya 16 hours late, having been held there due to the derail­ment of a number of wagons which occur­red during shunting operations and blocked the main line. The stock arrived Cannon Hill 15 hours late.''

DISEASES IN STOCK ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

Hon. H. H. COLLINS (Cook-Secretary for Agriculture and Stock): I move-

'' That the House will, at its next sitting,­resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole· to consider of the desirableness of introduc• ing a Bill to amend the Diseases in Stock Acts, 1915 to 1948, in certain particulars.'' Motion agreed to.

NURSES AND MASSEURS REGISTRA­TION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

Bill, on motion of Mr. Jones, read a third time.

MINING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL (NO. 2).

THIRD READING.

Bill, on motion of Mr. Foley, read a third time.

COAL MINING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

Bill, on motion of Mr. Foley, read a third time.

MATRIMONIAL CAUSES ACTS AMEND­MENT BILL.

THIRD READING.

Bill, on motion of Mr. Power, read a third time.

SUPPLY.

RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-ESTIMATES­THIRD AND FoURTH ALLOTTED DAYS.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Mann, Brisbane, in the chair.)

EsTIMATES-IN-CHIEF, 1948-49.

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS. CHIEF OFFICE.

Debate resumed from 28 October (see page 1062) on Mr. Jones's motion-

" That £260,050 be granted for 'Depart­ment of Health and Home Affairs, Chief Office.' ''

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (11.13 a.m.): There are one or two matters raised during the debate on Thursday last to which I wish to refer before the vote goes through.

The hon. member for Windsor questioned the advisability of having the infectious­diseases hospital at the General Hospital,

1092 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Brisbane, better known as Wattlebrae, in such close proximity to the General Hospital. The point that might be emphasised in regard to infBctious-diseases hospitals is that since the beginning of hospitals in this State these units have been provided for at most hospitals in the same grounds as the general and maternity hospitals. There is no regulation covering the matter, but the considered opinion of the States Commissioners for Health from time to time has been that the isolation ward for the treatment of infectious diseases cases should be 40 feet from the nearest building. The Wattlebrae infectious­diseases hospital is considered to be ~urther removed from other hospital buildings at Bowen Bridge than at any other Queensland hospital.

:Mr. Pie: You are going to take it out <'ventually f

:Mr. JONES: The hon. member said that we have been trying to do that. When matters such as this are raised in this Chamber we should have the opinion of administrative or medical experts. I am not in a position w give an opinion whether it would be dan­gerous to have a hospital for the treatment of infectious diseases in close proximity to general hospitals.

After the Press report of the statement by the hon. member for Windsor was published, Dr. Pye, the medical superintendent of the Brisbane Hospital, reported to the chairman of the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board as follows:-

''Infectious-diseases hospitals were placed on the outskirts of towns and cities becausP it was thought that infection was conveyed in the air. This theory has been com­pletely discarded. Infectious diseases :uP .conveyed from person to person.

''Patients suffering from infections diseases in Sydney are nursed in the Prince Henry Hospital at Little Bay. As well as being a hospital for infectious diseases it is also a general hospital. When the inci­dence of infectious fevers is high, patients :suffering from these conditions are nursed in wards which, when the incidence of infectious diseases is low. are used for nursing patients sufferini from general <eonditions.

"The Medical Superintendent and the Manager of the Queen's Memorial Infecti­ous Diseases Hospital, Melbourne, visited Brisbane early this year to inspect the Bris­bane Hospital. It had been decided that this hospital which had been solely utilised for infectious diseases would in future take general diseases as well as the former.

"In the report of the Hospital Survey, London Area, by A. M. H. Gray, C.B.E., M.D., F.R.C.P., F.R.C.S., and A. Topping, M. D., M.R.C.P., D.P.H., they state, 'that modern opinion has come to regard the small independent isolation hospital as an anachronism.' They recommend a large independent hospital with an optimum num­lbcr of 400 to 500 beds or the provision of

fever units in association with general hos­pitals. They recommend the establishment of hospitals of 940 beds to be made up as follows:-

General 600 Maternity 50 Tuberculosis 40 Chronic sick 150 Infectious diseases 100

''During this year the average number of patients accommodated in Wattlebrae has been 30.5 and consequently a hospital of 400 to 500 beds for infectious disease patients is not warranted in Brisbane.

' ' There has been some cross infection at Wattlebrae as occurs in all Infectious Disease hospitals.

"Mr. Pie states: 'It has been proved that cross infection has come from it (Wattle­brae) even to the maternity section of that hospital, and that it has cost the lives of young Queenslanders.' I know of no instance of this. His statement is unjusti­fiable and wholly wanting in evidence to support it. Both W attlebrae and the Women's Hospital have been closely inves­tigated by medical scientists of world wide repute. They have never made any adverse criticism of the location of the two hospitals.

''The Hospital Board has asked the Hepatriation Department to make available Hosemount. If this request be granted it is possible that the patients now accommo­dated at Wattlebrae might be transferred to Rosemount. The reason for this trans­fer would be that Wattlebrae is capable of accommodating 200 patients. Infecti­ous diseases in Brisbane are mild compared to other parts of the world and these patients rarely need the facilities of the X-ray department and only limited facili­ties of the pathology department. As Wattlebrae is so close to the Brisbane Hos­pital, if general patients were accommo­dated there, the existing X-ray and path­ological services would be readily available to them. ' '

That is a very effective reply to the ques­tion raised by the hon. member for Windsor. There are about 120 hospitals in Queensland and all have the infectious-diseases wards in close proximity to the main hospital. Every hon. member who has a hospital in his elec­torate will know that the infectious diseases ward is within 50 or 100 yards perhaps of the maternity section. The attitude of the vari­ous Directors-General of Health and Medical Services towards this matter over the years indicates that they must have given some thought to it. I do not suggest that the hon. member for Windsor should not have raised the question, because it might be worthy of some consideration.

The main reason why we are anxious to obtain Rosemount is that last year we had only 30 infectious-diseases cases whereas we have accommodation for 200. With our General Hospital overcrowded, we thought that if we could have the few infectious­diseases cases transferred to Rosemount there would be a further 200 beds available for

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1093

the General Hospital. We have made some approaches with this end in view and we are hopeful that something will develop.

The hon. member for Buranda spoke of double huts for married couples in such insti­tutions as the Eventide Home.

In 1927 a number of double huts were established for the married couples at the Eventide Home at Charters Towers. In the very fine institution at Rockhampton that we hope to occupy towards the end of this year or early next year, we have made provision for a number of double huts for married couples. The same will apply at Charleville and other places. The Government realise the need for keeping old couples together in the last days of their lives. We intend to continue that policy and it has been followed in the plans and specifications that have been drawn up.

The hon. member for Cunningham made a suggestion, if I followed his remarks correctly, to the effect that we consider subsidising private hospitals. That is something I do not favour. As a matter of fact, it would be against Government policy to subsidise private hospitals. I have been approached by a number of doctors with a request that the Government make grants to private hospitals to be built in different parts of the State. That is a wrong approach to hospitali­sation, because after all the doctors who usually make these requests are concerned with their own practices. I know it is desirable that we should be able to build hospitals in the smaller centres, but this is not always possible, and I do not think the suggestion by the hon. member for Cunning­ham should receive consideration.

I want to make reference once again_ to the hon. member for Sandgate 's speech on Thursday last, in which he made an attack on the electric shock treatment practised in mental institutions and in other hospitals. His language, I believe, was rather extra­vagant and ill-considered; I do not think he has given the matter sufficient thought. I believe that if an hon. member of this Com­mittee rises in the Chamber with the idea of unearthing something he believes to be totally wrong, particularly on a medical question, his remarks should be supported by authorities. He should be able to quote the opinion of a doctor or doctors. The hon. member mentioned that his remarks were based mainly on opinions expressed to him by medical men. That is a pretty wide statement; he did not quote anything to indicate that he had been in touch with doctors on the question but he stated that he knew the system had been entirely discarded in America. That statement is not true. I went to the trouble of ascertaining the position in America. I obtained a copy of the annual report of one of the leading mental hospitals in Columbia, United States of America, and it gives an idea of the extent to which this system is practised.

I told the Committee the other day that I had no knowledge of the shock treatment, and I said that I would get the opinion of leading psychiatrists in Australia. The speech

made by the hon. member received publicity not only in Queensland but throughout Australia, and some alarming headlines appeared in the Southern Press. I have reports from Sydney, Melbourne and other places that take a serious view of the state­ments made by the hon. member. When an hon. member goes so far as to refer to patients as being treated as human guinea­pigs and being subjected to inhuman and cruel treatment, he uses strong language and makes a reflection upon the medical profession. I should not care to express my­self in those terms. The hon. member for Hamilton attempted to protect his colleague in a way, but did not make any definite statement, saying that the matter was worthy of consideration.

Since the hon. member made his statement I have gone to considerable trouble to obtain some information on what our leading psy­chiatrists think of this form of treatment and I have come armed this morning with some figures. The hon. member said that no statistics had been published concerning this method of treatment but I have come with some very positive statistics. I think it will be agreed that doctors, men who are special~sts in this line, cannot all be accused of bemg inhuman monsters-and that is what the hon. member's allegation really amounts to. Indeed a man would have to be a sadist to take a' delight in cruelly ill-treating a person who had some temporary mental disability. It would be very inhumane for any doctor to do such a thing and, therefore, the reaction of the medical profession to the statement of the hon. member is very bad.

The worst feature of the statement is the publicity given to it. Only on Friday morn­ing-the hon. member for Nundah can support this-I received a call from a person at Nundah, whose name I have, who said that his wife, who had received this form of treat­ment had read the report of the hon. mem­ber,; remarks, first of all in the morning paper and again in the e~ening paper, an.d was. so upset that at 11 o clock that day It was necessary for him to call in a doctor. In a moment I shall read from a report that I have received from Dr. Stafford conrerning the experience he has had of people ringing him up because they were so much concerned about the hon. member's statement. I am sure that hon. members will give some con­sideration to the reports that I am about to read. I intend to have them placed on record. It is only right that I should reply to the charges actually made by the hon. member for Sandgate.

The hon. member did not make an attack on me, and I want to be fair to him by ~ay­ing so but he did make some very senous charge~ and I think that the only persons capable of replying to those charges are the medical men themselves. Consequently ~ have gone to some little trouble to obtain the opinions of various doctors. It was not necessary for me to go to s~m.e of thelll:; they sent their reports and opimons on this form of treatment to me without any request from me.

1094 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

lllr. Foley: It will be interesting to see whether the Press give the same promin­ence to your reply as it did to the charges by the hon. member for Sandgate.

lllr. JONES: First of all I want to quote from the report of Dr. Stafford, Director of Mental Hygiene, after he had read the report in the Press of the hon. member's remarks. Later on he read the hon. member's speech in '' Hansard'' and furnished a further report to me. After he had read the Press report he sent this statement to me-

'' Re: Electric Therapy for the Mentally Sick.

''This treatment is one of several active therapies that has been instituted during the past decade.

'' 'l'hese active treatments have, associ­ated with psycho-therapy, revolutioned the medical and economic outlook of mental hospitals.

"In my opinion it would be definite and tragic neglect, if not criminal neglect, to cease these treatments unless some more efficient method was evolved.

"In 1937 I was able to see these treat­ments developing in America, Europe and Great Britain. Since then through periodic visits to the Southern capitals I have met practitioners who have had more recent overseas experiences. In addition I have maintained associations with overseas contacts by which means I have been kept informed of overseas clinical and statistical data.

"In a general perspective of these thera-pies the following is the position:­

''Increased recovery rate; ''Greatly shortened hospitalisation; ''Decided improvement in patients not

recovered sufficiently for discharge. These I designate as 'hospital' recoveries. ' ' Economic alterations. " (a) The average stay of a recoverable

patient is now about three-six months. Ten years ago it was twelve (12) to eighteen (18) months. During their longer stay in hospital many of these patients partici­pated in occupational and vocational tasks as part of a resocialisation regime and the hospital did derive positive material bene­fits thereby. Today the recoverable patient is treated and goes home at the conclusion of his treatment. This has necessitated increased staffing in practically every service.

"(b) My medical officers and nursing staff will corroborate my statement that during the past years of acute shortage of female nurses it would have been a sheer and absolute impossibility to carry on with­out th~ special therapies such as electric treatment, so greatly and rapidly does it improve the patient and his behaviour.

"This is at least a weekly experience. A patirnt is admitted in the throes of acute mania or acute melancholia. In the extrem­ity of his excitement or despair he is sleep­less and refuses to take any food or nourishment. In the most robust of patients

death could be expected in 48 to 72 hours despite artificial feeding and heavy seda­tion with drugs. In other cases less severe the mental symptoms would subside to some extent but leave us with the patient who was intractable and difficult, who was filthy in habits and subject to aggressive violence and/ or active suicide."

This is rather interesting.-''Today with electric treatment it is our

every-day experience to see this miracle. After one or two treatments of electric therapy the patient suddenly changes to a rational being, thanks us for the <Jelivery from a mental hell and coincidently becomes a relatively simple problem to nurse, and a person amenable to psychotherapy.

''I would also like to state with all the emphasis I am entitled to use, that I could not reconcile my conscience to the continu­ance of my duty in a department or in a hos­pital where I was precluded from the prac­tice of the active physical treatments for mental disorders, unless (and only then) they be <Jiscarded by the development of treatments of greater and of more spec­tacular efficiency. ' '

Mr. Aikens: You ought to frame that statement and aend it to the hon. member for Sandgate.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. JONES: The figures I am going to quote are the best reply to the statement of the hon. member for Sandgate. They show the number of patients admitted during the past 12 months and the percentages who were suitable for and treated with electric convul­sive therapy.

- Males. Females.

Total Treated .. .. 127 167 Recovered .. 59= 46% 110 = 66% " Hospital .. · Recoveries .. 37 = 29% 28 = 16% In statu quo • • .. .. 31 = 25% 29 = 18%

127 167

I want hon. members to take notice of the next table as it will give them some idea of the development of this type of treatment in our mental hospitals. I am going to give the percentage of recoveries of the whole of admissions to the institution:-

Year. Males. Females. Total.

-----Per cent. Per cent. Per cent.

1941 .. .. 26 24 25 1942 .. .. 29 29 29 1943 .. .. 31 37 33 1944 .. .. 34 29 32 1945 .. .. 46 48 47 1946 .. .. 37 48 43 1947 .. .. 39 60 49 1948 .. .. 51 56 54

It will be seen that the recoveries on admis­sion increased from 25 per cent. in 1941 to 54 per cent. in 1948. Those figures speak for themselves.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1095

The hon. member's remarks the other day showed a lack of knowledge of general hospitals. He spoke as if we were sending ordinary patients from the general hospitals to the Brisbane Mental Hospital at Goodna, patients who should not go there. Dr. Bostock pointed out in a letter to the Press last week that Ward 16 of the Brisbane General Hospital is really a receiving depot for patients from the whole of Queensland.

Mr. Aikens: It is a sort of reception house.

~Ir. JONES: It is a sort of recep­tion house. What the hon. member for Sandgate should have been more con­cerned about was the number of people treated in Ward 16 who did not go to the Brisbane Mental Hospital at Goodna.

Even in a small town such as Townsville, \vhere we had a small reception house, there were 22 recoveries and there was no need to send the patients south. They were treated locally. The hon. member seemed to show a lack of knowledge in discussing the matter.

Mr. Aikens: Even some of them whc came to Brisbane, to Ward 16, did not get past that ward.

Mr. JONES: That is true.

I wish to refer to a further communication by Dr. Stafford written after reading the speech of the hon. member for Sandgate in "Hansard." It is as follows:-

' ' Since reading the Press report of the speech of Mr. Decker, M.L.A., I have had the opportunity to peruse 'Hansard.' There is actually nothing contained in this speech that warrants special notice were it not for the fear that its publication might create distress and misgivings in the minds of many who have benefited by electric treatment. I can appreciate that in future many people who will be treated may be fearful and anxious after reading the reported speech.

"I desire to assure the hundreds of people and the many of my colleagues who have honoured me with their trust and confi­dence that electric treatment will continue at the Brisbane Mental Hospital.

''The most complete answer I can give to my patients and their relatives and friends is just this. I could not find it in my conscience to continue duty in any department or in any hospital where I was precluded from using electric treatment.

"I trust that in the near future an even more efficient therapy will be dis­covered. Until then the public can be positively assured that our efforts will be energetically engaged with the emplo:f­ment of any means at our hand that IS likely to promote recovery.

''At this time it may be wise to also state categorically-

(1) Electric shock treatment was intro­duced into our hospitals after exhaustive inquiries and investigations. Where one's personal reputation is valued it follows

that such inquiries would be more com­plete than any inquiry at this date. In fact Mr. Decker is years behind the times.

(2) The honesty of purpose of medical practitioners using electric treatment has been held suspect by Mr. Decker who also in fact demands an investigation into their credibility. When a treatment is practised by doctors specialised in the treatment of mental sickness, and by doctors of world renown, in every country of repute, it is not the practitioners in Queensland whose motives are suspect but the sponsor of these slanders and innuendoes.

(3) During this last week-end I met many people and had telephone calls by others. The tenor of their conversations are righteous indignation at Mr. Decker's insinuations and charges and urgent anxiety lest I should be induced to dis­card the treatment.

(4) To my certain knowledge the elec­tric treatment is not banned in any coun­try. I have the official publications of leading institutions and clinics in America, England, New Zealand, and South Africa in addition to the reports of the other Australian States.

(5) The treatment is not cruel or inhuman. Apart from denying the impu­tation that I would indulge in, or approve of, sadistic practices, there is the fact that many hundreds of people throughout the world voluntarily seek this treatment. "Electric therapy consists in placing

special electrodes or terminal pads on the temples of a patient and then passing a weak current through the head. There is absolutely no risk of electrocution or any such untoward effect.

''The prefrontal area of the brain is con­cerned with the intellectual appreciation of emotions. Fears and anxieties would pass as transitory feelings if they were not considered and analysed and pondered over. It is largely the misinterpretation and exaggerating of fear and anxieties on the intellectual level that creates most mental distress.

"The electric treatment temporarily numbs this area of the brain, and the patient usually gains immediate relief. In addition, the treatment stimulates the nervous and blood reactions of the brain promoting better responses and enhanced nutrition. In fact, it is a beneficial meta­bolic disturbance.

''Electric treatment benefits some types of mental sickness more than others. In practically every case that is associated with behaviour disturbances it effects improvement, although it does not in every case affect the underlying causes.

"Mental sickness is often a very simple and straight-forward matter to treat. At other times it manifests itself in forms that are very stubborn and difficult to cure. Is it wrong to give these people electric treatment even if the chances of benefit are remote~ A parent sees me and is

1096 Supply. (ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

advised that shock treatment is not suit­able, and that the patient is unapproach­able by psychoanalysis or any psycho­therapy. 'rhe parent' says·, 'But, Doctor, cannot you do something~ Won't you try the electric treatment~ It might do some good and we know it cannot harm! ' Is a doctor a charlatan if he gives t'he treat­mentf

' ' I can remember one such case where the patient recovered. Admittedly my original diagnosis could be held to have been in error, but I do not know how I could avoid the same error in a similar future case.''

''All patients must be given every reasonable opportunity to recover. This opportunity must not be denied by profes­sional or lay timidity and conservatism.

''There is a world of information yet to be acquired concerning mental troubles and Queensland should be adding its quota. Much has been done and much is still to be done.

(6) I know of no case where electric treatment has accelerated mental sick­ness. It could be given with impunity to anyone normal or otherwise. After all most mental sicknesses are basically the over-action or under-action of other­wise normal functions. ''There are many and varied personali­

ties and dispositions among the people who constitute our community. Normality .must be a wide band allowing for numerous variations of thought and conduct.

''What I deplore most in these times is the tendency to emphasise these variations into pathological states and 'to designate these persons as mentally sick. Fears are of many kinds and are fundamental to the development of sick minds.

"Would that we could avoid creating more fears! Would that we could preach a gospel of universal normality! Let the citizens of our community have peace of mind in the knowledge that minds need rest and need tonics and will recuperate. Let us avoid creating an artificial aetiology of mental sickness by exaggerating its calamity, by perpetuating archaic stigmas, and by discrediting sincere efforts to restore those who have become so debilitated as to need urgent treatment.'' 1 do not intend to quote from a letter I

received from Dr. John Bostock, because it appeared in the Press and was given very full publicity.

I now wish to refer to a letter sent by Professor W. S. Dawson, Sydney, one of the leading psychiatrists in Australia, I under­stand. Dr. Dawson states-

"Is E.C.T. efficient~ Yes, in selected cases. The response of the majority of depressives is too quick to leave room for doubt that E.C.T. very materially reduces the duration of the melancholic or depres­sive attacks. Psychoneurotics with severe anxiety may also benefit greatly. Restless excited patients, hitherto controlled more or less by large and possibly toxic doses of chemical sedatives may be calmed by E.C.T.

''Discretion is needed in the selection and application of this treatment and it would

be unfortunate if it came to be regarded as the only or as an exclusive method of treating mental and nervous disorders.

''Is it painful f The popular term 'shock' treatment is misleading and a mis­nomer as it bears no relation to electric shock or electrocution. Cortical stimulation therapy is a better description and free from the unpleasant impressions created by 'shock' and 'convulsion.'

''Apart from some muscular soreness felt after regaining consciousness after a treatment there is no pain. The bony injuries which occur very rarely, but which are never serious may of course be painful at first, until splinted and set. The risk o.f these is usually considered preferable to the continuance of a severe mental illness. The risk of fractures, already small, may be further reduced by the use of curare, a drug which however has dangers of its own.

"Does E.C.T. accelerate admission to a mental hospital f Since the treatment is often given to 'desperate' cases already undergoing deterioration in the hope that their downward course may be stayed, relatives may blame the unfavourable out­come on the treatment, overlooking the natural course of the malady. There is no scientific evidence that this treatment aggravates the mental state.

"Does it serve any useful purpose f This question has already been answered. In a recent paper by Finiefs, Jour. Men~. Sci. July, 1948, it is reported that in a series of schizophrenics (a far less favour­able class than melancholics or depres­sives) who became fit for discharge from a mental hospital, those treated by E.C.T. had stayed on an average 4.8 months in hospital, compared with an average of 5 months for those who had had coma-insulin and 8.3 months for those who had had just general treatment such as sedatives.

"Has E.C.T. been banned by some institutions in U.S.A. f I have no knowledge of this and consider that it is most unlikely that it is not used in hospitals treating acute and recent mental disorders. It might possibly be 'banned' in institutions taking only chronic mental cases, imbeciles and senile dementias. '' Another letter, received from Dr. Guy

Springthorpe, secretary of the Australian Association of Psychiatrists in Melbourne, states-

'' Dr. Murphy phoned me last night to report the remarks made by one of your politicians in the Queensland House on the question of 'shock treatment.' They should be contradicted as soon as possible since not only are they entirely incorrect, but are likely to cause much unnecessary alarm to mental patients and their relatives.

"'E.C.T.' (or shock treatment as it is sometimes called) can cause no pain as the patient becomes instantly unconscious. If cases are properly selected for this treat­ment by psychiatrists of experience it does not do harm or predispose to further mental illness. It is not being discarded in America or elsewhere. In making these

Supply. [2 NovEMBBR.] Supply. 1091

categorical denials of the reported utter­ance I am expressing not only my own views, but those of other psychiatrists of repute in Melbourne and the other States in Australia, by whom 'shock' treatment will continue to be used for the types of mental disorders that their experience has shown require it. It should further be made clear that at present there is no other treatment that relieves so many of these unfortunate sufferers so surely or quickly, and to print reports to the contrary does a grave dis­service to the men tally ill.

''If you desire to quote any portion of this letter I shall be pleased to give permis­sion.''

In view of the seriousness of the statement mad~: by the hon. member for Sandgate, and as it is causing a certain amount of concern in the minds of not only the people who have received treatment but also their relatives, it is only right that these statements should be quoted.

Only this morning I received the following letter from Mr. B. J. Harlem, Deputy Com­missioner of the Repatriation Commission in Queensland:-

''In confirmation of the telephonic con­versation of my senior medical officer, Dr. W. E. E. Langford, with the under-secre­tary of your department, Mr. R. H. Robin­son, this morning, I wish to state that this department employs four ( 4) part-time and one (1) full-time psychiatrists in the care of its psychiatric patients. All favour the use of electric shock therapy in suitable cases, and this form of treatment is used at Repatriation General Hospital, Greenslopes, with good results.

''Such treatment is used also at the Brisbane Mental Hospital, in the treatment of repatriation patients under the care of medical officers of your department, with equally good results.

''It is requested that this form of treat­ment continue to be made available to appropriate repatriation cases in Brisbane Mental Hospital and the Repatriation Pavilion, Wacol." I have a number of other letters from

various medical authorities, but I think hon. members will admit that I have quoted state­ments from leading psychiatrists. As a matter of fact, our own Dr. John Bostock, of Bris­bane, is chairman of the Australian Associa­tion of Psychiatrists. I received a letter from him this morning, and it covers much the same ground as the statement published by him in the Press over the week-end, with the addition that he eulogises the work of the department, especially where it deals with the matter under discussion this morning.

Several of the psychiatrists to whom I have referred said that the statement that this treatment had been discontinued in America is not correct.

lUr. Morris: But it is partly correct.

Mr. JONES: They do not say it is even partly correct. That it is incorrect is shown by the following extract from the annual report of the Federal Security Agency of

America, dealing with one of the leading mental hospitals of the world, St. Elizabeth's Hospital, which was founded by Special Act ot Congress:-

'' The psychiatric department has con­tinued to provide every form of therapy, new and old, which has demonstrated maximum value with minimum risk. Electric shock therapy has been used extensively, primarily in cases of depression, but , also in a number of cases of schizophrenia with affective features.''

Mr. Morris: Have you any evidence to show that it has done harm in any case f

Mr. JONES: No. I have asked for evi­dence of that, but there does not seem to be any.

I wish to place on record a letter forwarded by Dr. Pye, General Superintendent of the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals and written to the Chairman of the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board following the publication in the Press of the statements by the hon. member for Sandgate-

' 'I greatly deplore statements published in last night's 'Telegraph' and today's 'Courier-Mail' by Mr. Decker, M.L.A., concerning Shock Treatment.

''Mr. Decker is quoted in the 'Courier­Mail' aB saying, 'All the evidence I have been able to gain claims that it is cruel an~ inefficient and there have been few cures. It is shocking that this should be allowed to continue when in other parts of the world it has been proved a failure.'

''I do not know from where Mr. Decker has obtained his information. I am certain that it is wrong, and the publication of such irrespon~ible statements will cause embar­rassment to those who have had shock treat­ment and for those unfortunates for whom it is recommended. Those engaged in the treatment of these patients have enough difficulties \vithout the added difficulty of having them approach bene'll,cial treat­ment with adverse prejudices.

"Many thousands of sufferers from men­tal disorders have been an~ are being saved from certification and are being maintained in a good state of mental health by elec­trically induced convulsions. Innumerable apparently demented mental hospital patients are able to feed and loO'k after themselves.

''It is exceedingly rare for patients to object to the treatment. It is absolutely painless and the majority of patients have no memory of events for about five minutes prior to treatment. Many patients who have previously ha~ the treatment have come t(} this hospital asking for further treatment because they fear a relapse of their symp­toms.

''Mr. Decker 's alleged statrment con­cerning the evidence he has been able to gain is completely at varian~e with the f':cts as published by experts 1n the medical press.

''He refers to 400 patients who received shock trratment at the Brisbane Hospital up to July. It would have been 'cru,el and

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shocking' had these patients not been so treated, as without shock treatment the majority would have needed certification.''

Those 400 people referred to were not certi­fied as insane but had they not been treated it is quite possible that they would have been certified as insane and sent to Goodna. I think that that is a point missed by the hon. member. The great majority of those people treated by this method were not insane and not certified as insane. I know, and pro­bably other members of this •Committee know too, of people who received shock treatment and have not been inmates of a mental insti­tution. The treatment is a method by which t,hey can be brought back onto the road again.

Hon. members heard what Dr. Stafford said about many of the cases he has treated. I can give hon. members a list of the names of those who have asked whether we inten'.ied doing anything about this matter. lt was very unfortunate indeed that the hon. mem­ber raised the question; it was not something simply said in the Chamber and ending there; it received wide publicity. I hope that tHy remarks this morning or at least the authori· ties I have quoted will be given some p"b­licity. After all, I have gone to the trouble, as I told the Committee I would, of getting the, opinions of leading psychiatrists in Aus­tralia. I thought it was my responsibility to <~ee that the statements were refuted; if they could not be refuted it was my responsibility to set up an investigation, as the hon. mem­ber suggested. If the opinions he said he had obtained were from medical men and not psychiatrists, the least he could have done would be to have approached some of Bris­bane's psychiatrists. They are not impossible of interview and I am sure they would have answered his questions and given him litera­ture that would have enabled him to get a better understanding of the subject. Many of us could probably make sensational state­ment'S and get headlines in our newspapers, but I think an hon. member of this Commit­tee has a responsibility above that. I think an hon. member elected to this Parliament is expected to use common sense. He could get up and make wild statements about our gaols and our lazarets without a chance of proving his remarks, and so do a great deal of harm.

For that reason, as I said before, I regret very much that he made the statement, and I think he should realise by now that his language was rather extravagant and, what is more, amounted to a reflection on the medical profession. I do not think that you can read his speech and come to any other conclusion. I read his speech very closely again yesterday and I am sure that it puts medical men practising this method of treat­ment in a rather bad light.

However, I feel that I have done my duty in bringing this information and opinion before the Committee.

Mr. DECKER (Sandgate) (11.56 a.m.): First of all I should like to say to the Minister on the subject of publicity given to my statement that it was I who got the publicity, but I had a public duty to do. I

am never afraid to do what I believe to be my public duty and what I think is best in the interests of the people I represent and of the people of the State as a whole.

The statements by the Minister today were not unexpected. A man would be a fool to think that the people who practise this method of treatment would not come forward in its defence. The Minister said that he would give us a good many statistics, but the infor­mation he has given us amounts practically to just bare statements. I have asked for an investigation so that we can put at ease the people who are so concerned and ill at ease about this so-called shock method.

Mr. Moore: Are they ill at ease?. We have only your statement for that.

Mr. DECKER: Since the publicity has been given to this matter my phone has been ringing continually and I have had a number of letters through the post and I have had information from quite a number of other persons direct, but unfortunately the majority of them have asked that their names be not used. I am satisfied that there is room for an investigation, because in only one case out of all the cases brought to my notice was there any success. All the other cases brought to me have been failures. If this method had met with the success that is claimed for it and if it is so widely acclaimed as being successful, one would expect at least to hear of more than one person receiving benefit from the treatment out of a total of 100 cases.

I would point out that not one of the psychiatrists who have defended the method have used anything but the electrical treat­ment, and that does not exhaust all the forms of shock treatment that was mentioned during my speech. Twenty years ago the very doctor who comes into prominence in this matter, Dr. Bostock, was practising shock treatment in Brisbane, and I should like to ask Dr. Bostock how many thousands of people from all over Australia came to him for shock treatment by malarial injections. What has happened to that treatmenU It got wide publicity, at one stage and it brought a large clientele to him. I know cases that have been treated by Dr. Bostock, some of them going back 20 years. Some of the patients are now in their graves and others are physical wrecks. Insulin has been mentioned as another method of shock treatment. The only shock treat­ment spoken of in the Minister's statement is the electrical treatment and it may have some merit, but that has yet to be proved. I want to say in fairness to the Minister that he has given us only the opinions of medical men, the opinions of men who are using this treatment, whereas the evidence I have and the evidence given to me since the matter received such publicity convinces me that there is room for an investigation.

I hope the Minister will consider my representations again and that in the interests of the public he will allow me to give my voluntary se-rvices to that committee in order that I can make available the complaints

Supply. (2 NovEMBER.] Supply_. lOQ~

I have in my possession, which I am keeping as they will be of inestimable value in the case in the event of an investigation.

(Time expired.)

Mr. THEODORE (Herbert) (12.1 p.m.) : I am moved to make a contribution to this vote because of the importance of the depart­ment to the welfare of the people. I want to pay a tribute to the Minister for the way he has handled its affairs. It has very wide ramifications and he has tremendous respon· sibilities. We all know that the various branches of the department are subject to caustic c•riticism by people who are not competent to judge. We have to rely on our officers, who are competent to carry out the important tasks entrusted to them. The medical profession and others charged with these very important responsibilities are doing a wonderful service to the community. I saw evidence only Tecently of what is taking place. We know the great problems and diffi­culties that confronted the medical profession and the various branches of our sub-depart· ments of Health and hospitals, together with their medical and nursing staffs, during the war and in the post-war period. These difficulties are being gradually overcome.

I want to make paTticular reference to the difficulties experienced by country hospitals through shortages of doctors and staff and the consequential inconvenience suffered by the people. The people in the country centres are confronted with many difficulties unknown to those living in the city who have all necessary conveniences at hand. That is a fact of which I have a keen realisation because I have lived so long in a country district, namely, the Tully district. That is a very large dist-rict with a population as revealed by the last census of 4,300 people. It has only one doctor. That population increases by 300 or 400 people during the crushing season, which increases the work of the medical officer and staff of the hospital in that period. In the sugar industry men are subject to accident and disease to a greater extent than in normal occupations. Therefore, there is great need for an additional doctor in a district like Tully. It is very hard indeed for people to live in such a district as Tully, as many of them are miles from the hospital centre and where the doctor resides. Long rough roads must often be negotiated before they can obtain medical assistance even in serious accident or sudden sickness. If a second doctor was available to the district one could he spared to visit the scene of the accident or the sick patient and perhaps prevent loss of life. The ambu­lame does wonderful work, not only in the T'ully but in all country districts.

If it were not for that fact the position would indeed be very serious. I urge that something be done, if it is at all possible. I believe it is the responsibility perhaps of the residents to try to induce a doctor to establish a private practice there. I think we should have a resident medical officer at the hospital who would be engaged there the whole of his time, and not engaged

in private practice some of the time. I think that is the only way we can expect to get a proper medical service for the people up there.

The same thing applies to dental and ophthalmic treatment. People living in those parts have been agitating for those services for some time. Notwithstanding the fact the department has travelling dental and ophthalmic services, we do not get them in many parts of the North. The people are at a great disadvantage and the children, owing to shortages of staff and materials, do not get the treatment at the schools to which they are entitled.

Another matter I wish to refer to deals with cases similar to those referred to so unwisely by the hon. member for Sandgate. Last week I came down on the train from the North on which there was a male nurse looking after three cases of that kind. One. was a war neurotic, a fine stamp of young man; when I spoke to him I did not think" there was anything wrong with him. I think the people of the North are entitled to. expect that we should be able to give them a service in a northern town instead of hav· ing to bring them, at great expense to their people and at great inconvenience to the patients, to the South.

I was appealed to by the secretary of the hospital at Innisfail only the night before these people left to try to obtain sleeping berths for them. We can imagine the diffi­culty that an attendant would have looking after three people if they were all sitting up all night. We were able to provide berths for the three patients but the attendant had to sit some distance away. That is an instance of the very great difficulty experi­enced by people who are deserving of much better treatment. I am not going to take the Government to task for these things because I know the great difficulties involved. It is a very difficult problem and I was con· fronted with very great difficulty in providing three berths at very short notice.

I understand that the Government, in carry­ing out their policy, are going to establish four specialists at Townsville and two at Cairns, this service will afford a great relief to the people of North Queensland. I am very pleased to know that great advance has been made in that direction and, in time no doubt we shall see that service extended and that the scheme the Government have in mind to give these services to the people will be extended. That will be all to the good.

I now wish to make reference to what I believe is worthy of mention regarding the mental hospital at Goodna. On various occasions I have been asked to visit that institution on behalf of people in North Queensland who have friends or relatives there. I have been at the hospital and have seen the hard conditions that visitors to unfortunate relatives had to contend with. They went there, usually taking something to make life a little easier for their relative or friend. As I have said, until a few years ago the conditions were hard and there were

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many complaints. On a recent visit I noticed the very considerable improvements that have been made, and I am pleased the department the Minister, and his officers have made thes~ improvements. It reflects credit on them.

They have been very wise in putting the right person in charge of the various con­venienees. For instance, there is a newly ~rected canteen at which visitors can take patients to morning or afternoon tea. The .staff a-re wonderful and I could not help notic­ing the consideration they gave to the people -during their visit. That is a great improve­ment. Another convenience is a telephone, which I am sure is very much appreciated. I have received letters from various people com­plimenting this staff particularly Dr. Stafford for the consideration given to patients who e()me from my district. This is worthy of mention because I have heard condemnation by people who think they have ground for .complaint. When they have mentioned the matter to me I have advised them to have a talk with Dr. Stafford or the person in charge of the matter involved to ascertain whether steps cannot be taken to have what may be wrong righted. These people have received every consideration and courtesy.

The Government have erected segregation accommodation for repatriation patients at a eost of £129,867. I believe that the whole of the cost and the maintenance is to be borne by the Commonwealth Government. If the patient does not come under the repatriation scheme, but is an ex-service man, the cost is borne by the State Government.

Other improvements effected are better power supply costing £15,697, conversion of former Army buildings for canteens, recreation rooms, &c., costing nearly £8,000 .and reconditioning of the roadway at a cost -of £6,558. This reconditioning of the road was necessary. Many complaints were received from the sisters and wardsmen about the dust .arising from it. A reservoir costing £4,207 .also has been constructed. It is gratifying to know that these long-felt wants have now been filled. This fact proves that the needs of these sufferers are considered by the Govern­ment in every possibly way. There is also a .complete automatic telephone installation throughout the institution.

Once again I wish to congratulate the Minister on the fine job he is doing. He is sincere and I know that any complaints that have been forwarded to him through me will receive sympathetic consideration as soon as that is possible. I appreciate the fact that many important works that should be under­taken are not possible at the moment because of shortage of materials, but I am confident that when conditions permit there will be a general improvement in all branches of our 'health and medical services.

Mr. LOW (Cooroora) (12.19 p.m.): At the outset I wish to pay tribute to the very valuable work being carried out by the medical and nursing staffs of all public hos­pitals in Queensland. Like other hon. mem­bers, I strongly advocate the building of up­to-date nurses' quarters and recreation

facilities because I realise that both medical and nursing staffs must have suitable quarters and recreation facilities if they are to continue the splendid work they are doing.

It is our duty to provide necessary improvements for the adequate treatment of disease and the results of accidents, to which we are all liable.

The needs of the poor, too, demand our sympathy and consideration. Nothing is more distressing than to see one's loved ones forced to take to their beds in pain or sickness and because of lack of money unable to get the best advice and treatment. Even in a home where money is more or less plentiful a single case of illness upsets the whole routine of the household; in homes where the people are not . so well off financially their difficulties are increased one hundred-fold. It is therefore imperative that we should equip all our hospitals with sufficient accommodation for the careful and considerate nursing of their inmates. The care and treatment of those who are ill and those who suffer physical distress is your business, Mr. Hilton, and my business and I am sure there is not one hon. member of this Committee who would shirk this responsi­bility.

When one hears as one does occasionally, that hospitals are compelled to close wards through lack of finance and staff shortages it makes one wonder whether these institu­tions receive the support they are entitled to expect. We cannot expect to eradicate illness or make liability to accident impossible, but we should do all within our means to make provisions for the maintenance of these fine institutions. Great things have been done in the past towards improving public health by giving closer attention to sanitation and a more thorough inspection of buildings being used as dwelling houses. No matter what steps are taken to minimise the ris-ks of disease and danger we know we can never expect to overcome those evils. They will be always with us. Therefore the helping of those who through no fault of their own are unable to help themselves and the estab­lishment of safeguards against the spread of infectious diseases are our plain duty and we should see to it that our hospitals never lack the means of carrying on this splendid work. If anything is required at a hospital it must be provided. If a hospital requires modern equipment it must be got. We must equip our hospitals with the latest appliances together with a staff of skilled doctors and capable nurses.

Greater encouragement should be given to the children of the poor to enable them to qualify for the medical profession. The money to enable the children of poor people to become medical students and qualify is beyond their capacity.

We have been very fortunate at Nambour in having an up-to-date nurses' quarters. The building was built prior to the war and I feel that they have been responsible for the hospital's holding its nursing staff to the extent it has done. The structure is a credit

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1101

to the people who were responsible for its provision, but I feel that the time has now .arrived when we need a new maternity section at that hospital, and a separate children's ward. At present the children are housed in the same ward as the women and the noise created by the children is causing some concern.

The infectious diseases ward at the N am­hour hospital has been closed for about four _years, and this has caused great inconveni­ence to the people in the district. Infectious cases, including children, are now transported to the Brisbane General Hospital, which means a great deal of inconvenience and unnecessary expense to parents that would be obviated if the ward was re-opened. The reason given for the closing of it is shortage of staft, but I am of the opinion that the Government and other authorities are not interested in reopen­ing it because it is more convenient to them to transport the infectious cases to Brisbane rather than reopen it. However, I appeal to the Minister again to consider reopening it as I feel that it would be of considerable benefit to the people in the district.

The Government have relieved the local .authorities of all financial responsibility for the maintenance of hospitals throughout the State, but I hold the view that local authori­ties should never have been charged with this responsibility, that it is not one of their functions to give a hospital service. This causes me to revert to the closing of the infectious diseases ward at the Nambour Hospital to point out that it is having the ·eftect of imposing additional expenditure on the shire council. It has been called upon to pay the local ambulance for the transport of these cases to Brisbane. Although local authorities have been relieved of the precept payments in connection with hospital ser­Yices, this and other demands now being made upon the shire council in my district have off­tlet any benefit gained in the cessation of precept payments.

The Government provide most of the money for hospital services from the Golden Casket, but there is also the financial assistance in the form of a hospital payment from the Commonwealth Government to be kept in mind. The majority of people who take a ticket in the Golden Casket feel that they have only an outside chance of winning any of the major prizes but they patronise the Casket because they know that if they do not share in the prizes at least their money goes to a worthy cause, in helping to finance the hospital services of this State.

Recently I asked the Minister for Transport if he would give favourable consideration to a proposal to grant concessional railway fares to the medical, nursing, domestic and admin­istrative staffs of general hospitals while travelling on annual leave, but the reply was not encouraging. Indeed, the proposal was turned down. However, as the Government have assumed the entire financial respon­sibility for the maintenance of hospital ser­vices. it is only right to expect that all the employees on hospital staffs should enjoy the same conditions as those applicable to other public servants. If any body of people is

entitled to concessional fares on the State­owned railways, it is the medical, nursing, domestic and administrative staffs at the various public hospitals throughout the State.

· Another matter that I placed before the Minister some few weeks ago is that of free X-ray treatment for patients occupying beds at the Gympie Hospital. Since the Minister made his Teply I find a similar state of affairs exists at a number of other hospitals, there­fore I take it for granted that it exists in every hospital throughout the State. I have a considered statement of facts that I wish to place before the Minister for his consideration. All cases. sent by private doctors to the general X-ray department are X-rayed absolutely free of charge with the exception of patients occupying private beds in the General Hospital. This means that although the General Hospital was erected and is maintained by public funds for the benefit of the public, patients who use private beds provided by the Government are being definitely penalised. If the Government are sincere in their declarations that they have the welfare of the people at heart, they should not allow an anomaly to exist whereby free X-ray treatment is given to patients from private hospitals while private patients in public hospitals are compelled to pay for that treatment.

Mr. Jones: If they have private doctors they are under an obligation to pay for it.

Mr. LOW: I am not quite finished yet, and I wish the Minister to listen closely because the conditions obtaining at the Gympie Hospital obtain at the Nambour Hospital also. Fifty per cent. of the people living in my electorate are treated at the Gympie Hospital, the other 50 per cent. at the Nambour Hospital. Therefore, I ask the Minister to give this matter his close con­sideration. A great many maternity patients are X-rayed each week at public hospitals to determine the presentation or position of the expected child before birth. If the position is such that the mother may have some difficulty in delivering her baby it is turned and adjusted and another X-ray is made. In other words, X-Tay examinations save the expectant mother quite a deal of unnecessary suffering. Why should she have to pay for this X-ray examination because she is a patient of a private docto•r at a public hospital? If she was a patient of a private hospital she would be given free transport to the public hospital, X-ray depart­ment, and free examination. If the Govern­ment will not extend the P'rivilege of free X-ray treatment to all patients of private hospitals the least the Minister can do is to extend it to maternal patients. That should be done if the Government are sincere in their much-vaunted declarations that they have the welfare of expectant mothers at heart. I make this submission to the Minister in all sincerity. An anomaly exists there. I have looked into it very closely. If the Minister calls for a statement of facts he will see that there is no encouragement to people to go into a private ward, in fact, they are penalised for so doing.

1102 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

There is another matter, in connection with the appointment of health inspectors to various local authorities, that I wish to place before the Minister. The Department of Health, which is under the control of the Minister, has the first and :final say as to who shall be appointed to the local authorities as health inspectors and whether they shall be employed as full-time or part-time officers. I :find that many local authorities today are being saddled with additional health inspec­tors, not to carry out the provisions of our health laws in the particular shi•re to which the officer may be appointed but to carry out work that clearly comes under the Building Control Division.

This means that the local authorities are being saddled with an additional expense that is not rightly their liability.

Mr. Power: That is not true.

Mr. LOW: That is quite correct.

Mr. Aikens: Pure nonsense.

Mr. LOW: It is quite correct. I quote the instance of the Maroochy Shire Council at Nambour. Not many years ago we had one health inspector who looked after two · shires, if not more. Later we were compelled to employ a full-time health inspector, and I really think that was warranteb. ior a shire of that size. Since building-control has come into operation and the local authorities have been compelled to carry out this work, we find that the Department of Public Health has forced the council to employ a second health officer. I say without hesitation that there is only room for one health inspector in that shire, and that the second man is carrying out nothing else but building-control work. It means that the council is saddled with at least £500 a year extra to meet the demands of the Building Control Division.

Mr. Aikens: You must have a pretty weak-kneed mob of councillors if they allow the department to stand over them.

Mr. LOW: The present set-up of the Maroochy Shire Council is a good one ; there is nothing wrong with the personnel, but they realise that the · department has over-riding powers which they observe.

I believe that local-authority inspectors should have the right to enter Government property and inspect buildings and con­veniences such as hospitals, railway buildings, police buildings, schools, etc. What is the use of having health inspectors in a dictrict if they are not entitled to go onto these properties~ They are public properties. We never see many State health officers out in the country; if they are out, they get around without anybody knowing of their presence. Seeing that the Department of Public Health has the right to tell shire councils whom they are to employ and how many they are to employ, surely they could carry out the work of inspecting Government departments with­out having somebody sent from Brisbane, which means an unnecessary expense to the State, and possibly unnecessary expense to

the local authority in whose area the depart­ments are centred. That is a grave anomaly and should be rectified at the earliest opportunity.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is the · expenses of school dentists. These should not be the responsibility of the small school committees at outside areas in the· country centres; they should be a charge against the State. I find that since this matter was raised last week, various school committees have been complaining bitterly about the absence of the school dentist at various outside centres. The gentleman who is operating in our area is a man of great ability, but he is hard-pressed. I know him personally; he does good work; he is always on the job and he does not get a chance to go out to the smaller remote places, as the school committees are charged with the responsibility of paying the dental travelling expenses. I feel that if the State is going to do its job it should pay the entire expenses and thus give the children in the distant areas the same privileges as are enjoyed by those in the more closely settled areas.

I wish to say a few words about the police in the country centres. No matter what other people may say, I say that our police stations in country centres are under-staffed.

The police are saddled with all sorts of clerical duties appertaining to various other departments. In country centres today we :find the police officers have not the time to­carry out their proper police duties. They could more or less be described as clerks. Many have to collect Main Road registration fees and taxes under the State Transport Facilities Act. They are burdened with the additional work of petrol rationing, checking rolls, traffic laws, and everything else. The time has arrived when this placing of additional work on the police at country centres must stop. It could be said that almost anything one likes to think of is added to their duties.

Notwithstanding the increase in population in the Maroochy shire there have been only three officers at the Nambour station for 'many years. The sergeant and his two assistants are doing an excellent job, but with the office work that has to be done they have not sufficient time to get out on the streets and roads and apprehend some of the reckless drivers who career up and down the highway.

I make an appeal to the Minister. There is sufficient work at the Nambour police station for the appointment of an additional constable and a cadet, who would work in the office collecting Main Roads registration fees, checking electoral rolls, dealing with petrol-rationing, and attending to correspon­dence. The strength of that police station should be increased. At the present time the officers there are undoubtedly being over­worked.

A funny sort of state of affairs now exists at Pomona. Two policemen have had the station for a considerable time, but somebody got busy and had one policeman transferred. The number of residents in the district is

Supply. [2 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1103

increasing, but the staff at the police station is depleted. That is an anomaly. I mention these mattocs this morning because I do not think they ever get to the knowledge of the Minister through the ordinary depart· mental channels.

Without heaping coals of fire on the shoulders of the Minister I must tell him that we appreciate the approval of the .establishment of a police station at Kenil· worth and the appointment of an officer in •charge. The officer at the Imbil police station had a big job administering a very large area. His time was fully occupied. \·.time expired.)

Mr. DAVIS (Barcoo) (12.44 p.m.): I think I can in all sincerity compliment the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs on his administration of what I believe is the most important department of State in Queensland. After all the health of the people is most important. It is little use our urging increased production if the health of the workers in industry is not cared for by the department.

Certain criticism from the Opposition in ~egard to the administration of the Depart· ment of Health and Home Affairs has been ill-advised.

If we browse through the records of the Opposition in the decades that have passed we find that little care was given to the health :and welfare of the workers in industry or -even the great masses of the people who made up the population of the State and the country. At present the services that are available in the city of Brisbane to the popu­lation of the city of Brisbane are availn ble also to every person in the State. I think every hon. member in this Chamber at some time or other has made representations to the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs Qr his officials that there should be brought to the city of Brisbane for medical attention people who were not in a financial position to have the treatment in their home town or who could not get the necessary treatment there. I believe the burden of expense of transporting people from the back country who are not able to get necessary medical treatment to ensure their return to health is a heavy burden to the department. I believe it is becoming so great-and here I am assum­ing that what occurs in my own electorate occurs in every other electorate outside the metropolitan area also-that I am almost ashamed to present myself to the department seeking a requisition for a pass to enable my people to comB to Brisbane for medical attBntion.

This department in all its ramifications is im outstanding example of practical Christi· anity at work. When the emergency exists the department even goes so far as to charter plmws to bring to the city of Brisbane people who nre not in a finanrial position to charter such a conveyance themselves. Snch things as these m11st have some bearing upon the depart­ment in its practice of practical Christianity.

The Opposition have some criticism to offer of the administration of this department, but in my opinion that criticism is unwarranted.

The other day I listened to a speech by a layman in this Chamber, a speech that dis­played lack of knowledge of actual facts, in which he attacked certain medical practices. The Minister gave a full reply to that this morning. The other day, too, the hon. mem­ber for Enoggera urged that prosecutions be launched against what he called an unregis­tered dentist.

The hon. member for Enoggera said that somebody should be prosecuted because of his activities in a part of the State where no dBntal service has been given to the people for sometimes as long as 18 months.

Mr. Morris: Your Government prose­cuted him.

lir. DA VIS: The Dental Board prose­cuted him but that was no reason why the hon. member should suggest in this Chamber that a certain person should be further persecuted.

Mr. Morris: He is not qualified.

Mr. DA VIS: Perhaps I should say to the hon. member that many of those sitting in this Chamber today are not qualified to be politicians.

Mr. Morris: We agree.

Mr. DA VIS: But let me tell the hon. member that the gentleman to whom he referred practised for four years at Charle­ville during the war and gave a service to the people in a large electorate such as Warrego and received hundreds of recom· mendations from those whom he served.

llr. Morris: Yet he cannot get registra­tion.

llr. DA VIS: He is unable to get regis­tration because of the Act. I respectfully suggest to the hon. member for Enoggera that before he enters into a controversy with regard to the registration of such people he make himself conservant with the conditions existing in the western parts of the State.

Mr. Morris: I know them very well.

Mr. DA VIS: Apparently not. I ask the hon. member who has all the service of the State at his command for dental attention to his children, to take into consideration that there are people in the West who have had no dental service at their command for quite a long period.

Mr. Morris: That is the fault of the Government.

llr. DA VIS: It is not the fault of the Government. It is the fault of those who would not meet their obligations-those whom the Government would employ.

Mr. Jones: We brought men out from England.

Mr. Morris interjected.

lllr. DA VIS: I am not supporting any­thing the hon. member suggests; I am suggest­ing that those who can qualify should be

1104 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

given the opportunity of qualifying. I see no reason why a university degree should be attached to the qualifications.

The Department of Health and Home Affairs has given a service to the Stat(\ unparalleled in the history of any Adminis­tration of hon. members opposite or the party they represent. Let me take you back, Mr. Manu, for a few years and look upon the hospitals that were administered not by the State but by committees.

They represented virtually the grazing section in every town in which they operated. I draw the attention of the Committee to the Clermont Hospital, which was administered prior to the passing of the Hospitals Act of 1944 under the voluntary system. Today it is almost tumbling about the ears of those who occupy it. Immediately the decision came that the Government would administer the affairs of hospitals in this State there was a clamour from every section of the community for the replacement of tumbled-down shacks by the construction of new hospitals. And I say this to the credit of the department, that it realised the deplorable condition hospitals were in under the voluntary system, and to such good purpose that in most electorates it has approved of the construction of new hospitals when man-power and material become available.

I can speak with feeling on this question myself because in my own electorate where voluntary hospitals were fairly general there has been approval by the department for the construction of new hospitals where they are needed but unfortunately, as with other departments, although approval was given three years ago for the construction of a new hospital in Barcaldine, where it is sadly needed, up to the present the hospitals board in that town has been unable to get a tender for the construction of a new hospital.

ltir. Jones: I think they have a tender now.

Mr. DA VIS: At the same time I heard criticism from members of the Opposition who are in the privileged position of having new hospitals constructed in their electorates. The fact that we are situated far from sources of supply is detrimental to us in the securing of tenders for the construction of hospitals, yet we find that people attempt to criticise us, very often only for political purposes. They fail lamentably. However, this has not been so within a very recent period. For generations the Opposition's forebears held the reins of Government in this State and I can look to a time when for generation after generation Governments of the political eolour of hon. members opposite occupied the Treasury benches in this State and the Com­monwealth. Their history is recorded. Today, on the other hand, every means of conveyance is made available free of charge to those who are in urgent need of medical treatment in this State.

We are to some extent rather too lenient in our outlook on defaulters. I make this statement quite advisedly and on the facts as they appear to me. Contracts have been made overseas between the Government and

members of certain professions. They !11im­

tracted to serve the State for a given period after their arrival here, but they have failed to carry out their contracts. The hon. mem­ber for~ Enoggera, in a consid€red opinion, recently stated action should be taken against a certain unregistered dentist, but the hon. member for Enoggera evidently forgot that a number of professional men who contracted overseas to serve the Department of Health and Home Affairs in its various sub-depart­ments, have on their arrival in this State failed to carry out their contractual obliga­tions. They were brought from overseas t(} this State at the expense of the Government,. in other words at the expense of every individual of the State. I say as a member of this Government that we should press for redress for a breach of contract against those who have failed to meet their commitments, even so far as going into the courts for the purpose.

Let us consider the facts. People who. desired to better their conditions of life overseas entered into overseas contracts with the Government, with expense to the State, not only with respect to their passages but for the salaries prescribed for their pro­fessions from the day they left their places of abode overseas until their arrival here .. They undertook to serve the Government in this State for a given period. They have broken the contract and it is about time we realised that this state of affairs cannot continue. Furthermore, is it right that the Dental Board should take note of this failure to give the service contracted for and refuse these dentists registration~

JUr. Aikens: They should not let them practice till they carry out their contract to the Government.

lUr. DA VIS: I quite agree with the hon. member from Mundingburra.

JUr. Aikens: One of them is a prominent member of the Q.P.P.

JUr. DA VIiS: I would press for this irrespective of any political organisation. Even if he was a member of the Labour party I would press for it; I do not wish to make any discrimination on the ground of political views. We as a Government should press, even into the courts, for a breach of contract. It is only reasonable and just that we should do so.

In making a comparison between the admin­istration of Labour Governments and the Governments of the past, I remember quite well when I look back through the years that I saw being opened, not hospitals, as we know them today, but hovels; particularly that section that was occupied by the work­ing class. Certainly there were private wards in which those that could afford the pTivate medical service that was available at that time could get better service than the great mass of the people.

I remember quite well a tale that was pre­valent in years gone by-and the years are not many. I believe the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs and the hon. member for Gregory are quite conversant with the facts

Supply. (2 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1105

Qf which I am speaking. I remember quite well that in the hospital those who could not pay were placed in the invidious position of having placed above their beds placards stat­ing that they were paupers. These years are not long past, and only since the advent of Labour into the field of administration have these things been eliminated.

The tale that I am about to tell is, I believe, an authentic one. It is told at Darr River Downs. Some men had become ill with typhoid fever within half a mile of the station. They were on the creek, seriously ill, and an appeal was made to the manager of that property-! understand his name was Mr. Bunning-for his horse buggy which was the only means of conveyance on that property, to convey the men who were ill to the Longreach hospital. The story handed down, fairly authentically too I believe, that the reply made by Mr. Bunning was, "Let the cows die,'' which, to his credit or dis­credit, they eventually did. Today, on the contrary, what do we find in the administra­tion of the Department of Health and Home Affairs~ Every means is now made available for those who cannot afford to pay for pri­vate medical attention.

(Time expired.)

Mr. KERR (Oxley) (2.25 p.m.): There is an old axiom, ' ' Cleanliness is next to godliness'' but I think it is time it was amended to read, ''Cleanliness and hospitalisa­tion are next to godliness.'' In order to have good health, in the first instance there must be cleanliness. The health of the community is paramount; without good health people cannot be good citizens, and life becomes a liability instead of a joy.

Some days ago I asked the Acting Premie•r whether he would give consideration to some scheme of subsidising the cost of construct­ing suburban hospitals, the main cost o:f which is raised by local residents, or alterna­tively, meet a portion of the yearly running eosts. The Minister who replied on behalf of the AC!ting Premier stated, inte•r alia-

'' The policy of the further development of hospital provision within the metro­politan area is one of decentralisation. That policy will be implemented as early as practicable by the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board, which is the author­ity charged with the function of the treatment of the sick within its distrkt.'' H11mane as are the ideals of the present

Gove•rnment in their hospitalisation schemes, of which I fully approve, I disapprove of the centralisation policy they have adopted and carried out for many years. A perpetua­tion of this policy is to be found in the erection of a hospital in South Brisbane. Seeing that their policy is one of centralisa­tion the Government could not do other than build the hospital proposed in South Brisbane. However, there is a greater need for further consideration of the establishment of subur­ban hospitals. There is no hospital, private or public, at all in my electorate at the present time, whicl1 means that medical, surgical and maternity patients have to be brought to tl1e Brisbane General Hospital or

to the Mater Misericordiae Hospital or to a private hospital elsewhere, to be treated. The general practitioner has to follow his patients probably two or three times a day to attend and that probably means the daily loss of three or four hours of his valuable time. That is enti•rely wrong. It is a great waste of time. Today the general practi­tioner in a suburban area has to work very strenuously and is a very harried man.

Something should be done. Serious consideration should be given to localising hospitals and not having them centralised in one unit. Some scheme should be evolved for either building public hospitals or subsi­dising the erection of privately owned hospitals in suburban areas. A 30- or 40-bed public hospital could be erected in the metropolitan area fQr ~nything up to £15,000.

JUr. Jones: The three doctors out your way want a private hospital.

Jllr. KERR: Not particularly; they want a hospital for the people and we will get that hospital. We will have a hospital in due course, either by public or P'rivate subscription.

But my point is that I suggest to the Government in all sincerity that by the erection of the proposed hospital in the South Brisbane area they are perpetuating their centralisation policy of hospitals. We should have that hospital in the South Brisbane area in the absence of suburban hospitals but it would be P'referable to have twenty hospitals spread among the population of Brisbane, which is approximately 500,000, at a cost of £15,000 each for a 30- or 40- bed hospital.

I went to some trouble to ascertain the cost of a privately owned hospital at South­port and have ascertained that that hospital, of 4,500 square feet, 29 beds, cost £4,500.

Mr. Jones: When was it built?

Jllr. KERR: About four years ago. I obtained the particulars from the shire clerk. I visited Southport and made inquiries from the builder, who assured me that a similar hospital could be erected today at the cost of an additional £1,000.

Jlir. ;r nw•s: A 29-bed hospital was built for £4,000~

Jlir. KERR: For £4,500. lUr. Power: Was it of fibrolite?

]}fr. KERR: Fibro-cement with a fibro roof and a brick foundation.

Jllr. Aikens: Is it a private hospital?

Jllr. KERR: Yes. 1Ur •• Tones: I think you are referring to

the hospital at Tugnn.

JlTr. KERR: No, I am referring to the privately owned hospital at Southport. I suggest that the Minister make his own inquiries. He will find that similar hoEf]Jitals could be built in the metropolitan area for about the same price.

The hon. member for Mundingburra decried the service given by private hospitals today.

1106 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Could anyone wish to go to a better hospital than '' Beerwah'' or '' Turrawan '' f In decrying all these privately owned hospitals the hon. member displays a lack of knowledge of the subject.

Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order. I did not decry all privately owned hospitals. I did make a remark about the general run of private hospitals. I said most of the private hospitals were in charge of a domestic or young girl from 8 o'clock at night till 6 o'clock in the morning, and that is true.

The TElUPORARY CHAIR]IAN (Mr Hilton): I ask the hon. member for Oxley to accept the assurance of the hon. member for Mundingburra.

lUr. KERR: I accept his assurance but the fact remains that the matron ha~ her deputy always ready to receive incoming patients.

JUr. Power: Under the Act they are com­pelled to have qualified sisters in charge at night-time.

~Ir. KERR: That is so.

The general practitioners in the suburban areas are getting a rough time. They are overworked. They work harder than any doctor employed by the Government and they are worthy of more consideration than they are receiving today. I urge the Government to give the matter serious consideration. I know they have their hand to the wheel now in building the hospital in South Brisbane, but when it is finished let us have metro­politan hospitals. For the sum of £300,000--

lUr. J>ower: Steel is your difficulty today.

~Ir. KERR: No steel would be required. The walls and roofing could be of fibro­cement, the framing of timber, and the foun­dation of brick. Indeed, very little cement would be needed, apart from what is con­tained in the fibro.

~fr. Jones: Would you suggest that we build hospitals of that type~

.llfr. KERR: Yes. They could be built of either fibro-cement or wood. Hospitals of that kind would serve the needs of the people for the next 50 years. I hope the day will come when the Government will give serious C?nsideration to ~his matter. I hope they Will some day consider the inconvenience being caused to husbands who are required to go to Bowen Hills or '' Beerwah'' day after day visiting their wives. After all hospi­tali.sation m~ans .something; more than' merely curmg the sick; It should mclude also service to the people. The residents of suburban areas are not getting service. Up to date centralisation has been a fetish with the Government. They talk about decentralisa­tion but so far we have had none of it in the Brisbane area. I plead with them to review their policy of centralisation and give the

people in the suburban areas a reasonable chance of visiting their sick without the great inconvenience to which they are put today.

Mr. INGRAM (Keppell) (2.35 p.m.) : After perusing the report of the Department of Health and Home Affairs one feels proud to be associated with a Government who have done such good work in the past. Everything has been taken care of. It is a humane depart­ment caring for the community from birth and its work ends only when life ends. It covers maternal and child-welfare work, hospitals, dental clinics, orphanages and homes for the aged people. It acts as a foster father and mother.

The Government have decided on a long· range policy for the care of the aged and infirm. Apart from financial help under the Commonwealth Social Services Scheme it is necessary to ensure that many of the aged are properly cared for. A home is established at Sandgate known as Eventide, where pro­vision is made for 900 inmates. There is also the Eventide Home at Charters Towers, pro­viding for 300 inmates. The Jubilee Hospital at Dalby is under the control of the Dalby Hospitals Board and I am pleased to say that there is not one person waiting for admission. No State in the Commonwealth is rendering such a great service as Queensland in the care of the aged and infirm.

A new home for the aged will be completed towards the latter end of next year at Rock· hampton and will accommodate approximately 250 patients. It will cater for residents in the Central District and no doubt inmates of existing homes in that area will have the opportunity of transferring to this new home. I advise hon. members of the Opposition to look at this home in Roekhampton, as I feel it will be an eye-opener to them. They visit various parts of the State from time to time to engage in political propaganda but they do not look to see what the Government are doing for the sick and infirm.

Mr. Pie: Is that the place being built on the old prison site~

lUr. IN GRAM: Yes, and it is of a magnificent type, too. The Rockhampton home, like the Eventide Home at Charters Towers, will be on the hut principle and will be developed in a garden setting. I recently had a look at these homes and I say that they are a credit to the Government.

A site has been selected for another home at Mareeba and plans are almost completed. A site has been selected at Charleville and the plans for this home are completed. In the development of the Government's programme other homes will be erected at Maryborough and Toowoomba. The basis of the Govern­ment's policy is to ensure that the aged will be able to live as nearly as possible in the places where they have lived most of their lives and that they shall not be taken to places far away from their usual places of abode. In furtherance of their policy the Government are subsidising on a pound for pound basis schemes by local authorities for the erection of cottages for pensioners. It is

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1107

hoped that by this progressive policy the State's aged and infirm citizens will have all the comfort and care that are due to them in their declining years.

Local.

I will quote, for the benefit of hon. mem­bers, the places approved of by the Govern­ment and the local authorities that have accepted the Government's offer of subsidy.

Description of Work. Estimated Cost.

Bundaberg City Council Mackay City Council .. Toowoomba City Council Warwick City Council Bowen Town Council .. Aramac Shire Council .. Barcaldine Shire Council Blackall Shire Council Cloncurry Shire Council Inglewood Shire Council .r ohnstone Shire Council

9 buildings (accommodate 40) .• 12 cottages

£ •. d. 4,000 0 0 5,000 0 0 7,392 0 0 3,500 0 0 2,000 0 0 1,000 0 0 1,000 0 0 1,750 0 0 3,600 0 0 2,448 0 0 4,600 0 0 2,100 0 0 1,882 6 9

22 flats .. -cottages 6 cottages .. .. .. 3 cottages, Aramac, 2 Muttaburra 6 cottages . . . . 4 single and 2 double huts .. -cottages at Cloncurry and Mt. Isa 1 cottage Inglewood, 1 Texas

{. · 6 cottages, Innisfail

Paroo Shire Council .. Quilpie Shire Council .. Mareeba Shire Council Booringa Shire Council Ayr Shire Council

-cottages .. 4 cottages, Cunnam ulla 4 cottages 692 0 0

3,270 0 0 2,000 0 0 2,000 0 0

Atherton Shire Council

10 cottages 4 cottages

{. · 9 cottages, Ayr ..

5 cottages, Home Hill 3 cottages

}

It is all very well for the hon. member for Windsor to say, ''How are you going to build these cottages~" He would not build any­thing for the benefit of the old people of this State; rather would he deprive the old pensioners of their rights.

The hon. member for Cooroora made refer­ence to the dental service of the State. The Government dental service is carrying out a magnificent job. Dental-clinic cars travel throughout the Central district of the State, and visit not only the towns but outlying areas as well. Utility trucks are used in this service, and they go miles into the country to the small country schools and give atten­tion to children there.

The Rockhampton Hospitals Board has <1eveloped its dental service, and at the present time has two dentists in its employ. So that the service can be taken to the people, the board has opened branch clinics at Yeppoon and Ogmore, and a clinic is being established ~•t Westwood Sanatorium also. The Govern­ment has allocated a British dentist, Dr. D. P. Cairns, to the Rockhampton Hospitals Board and one of the first five of the State Social Service fellowship-holders in dentistry, Mr. Phillips.

Not only have the Government done that at Rockhampton, but they have allocated the services of a British dentist, Mr. Sperryn­Jones, to the town of Mt. Morgan, and have provided the most up-to-date dental equip­ment. This service has been of great benefit to Mt. Morgan and the district. I was speaking to Mr. Sperryn-Jones recently. He is doing a magnificent job and is well con­tented in his employment with the Labour Government.

The hon. member for Fassifern said, by way of interjection the other day, that the Gov­ernment appointed their own supporters to Government hospitals boards. Let us not forget that during 1929-32, when the Moore Government were in power, they sacked every Labour supporter on hospitals boards and

1,500 0 0

appointed their own supporters. I happen to be one that they sacked, and there were many more besides. What an awful mess their supporters made of the hospitals boards! They made such an awful mess in Mt. Morgan that they had to ask the previous chairman, Mr. Carmody, to come back and take control of the board again.

An Opposition ~lember: And what did your Government do when they were returned in 1932 ~

~Ir. INGRA~I: When the Labour Gov­ernment were returned in 1932 they put their own supporters back. And what sort of a fist did they make of the joM Everything flourished. I have heard hen. members offer much criticism of the hospital-boards system. I was secretary of the Mt. Morgan hospitals board for a number of years and that board did a magnificent job. What did the Tory Gov­ernment do in 1929-32 ~ For a charge of 26s. a year they allowed a man to have only one week in hospital free and the rest he had to pay for, but immediately the Labour Govern­ment came into power they made a charge of 30s. a year, which enabled a man, his wife and his family to have all the treatment they needed in the hospital, free of cost. That is the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory Government.

lUr. Pie: Now then, Jacky!

~Ir. INGRAM: The hon. member is nothing so far as I am concerned. He is just a great sing-out, a squeal, and nothing more.

~Ir. Pie: Now then, Jacky!

~Ir. INGRA~I: That remark is offensive to me and I ask that it be withdrawn.

The TEMPORARY CHAimiAN {Mr. Hilton): I ask the hon. member for Windsor to withdraw that remark. Reference has been made to that remark on previous occasione in this Chamber. -

1108 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

lUr. PIE: He said that I was a nothing, and he should withdraw that. It is objec­tionable to me.

The TEiliPORARY CHAIIDIAN: I aslr the hon. member to withdraw the remark.

illr. PIE: I withdraw it, but the hon. member can say wkat he likes; he can say anything. I rise to a point of order. I ask him to withdraw it.

The TE"'IPORARY CHAIRJIIAN: I ask the hon. member to resume his seat. There has been some provocation from hon. members on my left during this debate. I ask hon. members generally to observe the decorum that is necessary in a deliberative Assembly such as this.

Mr. INGRAM: The Rockhampton hos­pitab· uoaru is doing a magnificent job in connection \Yith the Westwood Sanatorium.

Today it is spending thousands and thousands of pounds on amenities for the nurses and buildings for all the employees. It is doing a wonderful job so far as T.B. cases are concerned, too. I know something about it. In the last twelve months great numbers of patients have been discharged cured from the sanatorium. I appreciate the work of the Government in that direction.

Much was said by the hon. member for Fassifern last year and again on the Estimates this year about hospitals. He said it was nearly time that the Government took some action with respect to the wages and conditions of nurses. I am going to quote what nurses were paid prior to Labour's coming into office and compare those rates with the rates paid today. The monthly salaries paid in hospitals before Labour came into office in 1915 :-Matron, £10; sister, £6 5s.; fourth-year nurse, £3 6s. Sd.; third­year nurse, £3; second -year nurse, £2 10s.; first-year nurse, £1 13s. 4d.

lUr. Pie: A disgrace.

Jrir. INGRAJII: The hon. member for Windsor said it was a disgrace. It was.

The weekly wages paid under a Labour Government today in the Mount Morgan hospitaf are :-Matron, £8 5s., plus board and lodging and uniform· allowance; sisters, third­year, £5 10s., plus board and lodging and uniform allowance; sisters, second-year, £5 1s. 9d., plus board and lodging and uniform allowance; sisters, first-year, £4 16s., plus board and lodging and uniform allowance; nurses, third-year, £2 Ss. 3d.; second-year, £2 2s. 6d.; first-year, £1 16s. 9d.; all plus board and lodging, uniform, and one month's holiday on full pay. Their laundry also is done free of charge.

Let us examine the wages paid to other employees. Their monthly wages in 1915 were :-Cook, £8; assistant cook, £4; laundress, £6; domestic, £4; wardsman, £8, and yardman, £10. 'foday, under a Labour Government the wages paid per week to these employees are :-Cook, £6 2s.; assistant cook, £5 4s. 9d.; laundress, £4 13s. 3d.; domestic, £4 13s. 3d.; wardsman, £6 5s. 6d.; yardman, £6 5s. 6d. That should answer the statements

of the Opposition as to how the employees of hospitals are treated. Those fig~res illustrate most markedly the wages rulmg under Labour and Tory Administrations.

lUr. Pie: What is the secretary's salary?

JIIr. INGRAJI: £9 a week.

l\rr. Pie: What did he get?

lUr. INGRAJU: Under the voluntary system, as the hon. member for Fitzroy will bear me out, in 1929 he received £5 10s. a week. When the Moore Government came into office he was reduced to £4 a week. In fact, every nurse in that hospital at that time was compelled to take a reduction of 10 per cent. in her salary. That is what happened under Tory government, and I have shown what happened when Labour assumed power, and I can assure you that I am afraid to think of what will happen if the Tories ever get into power again. In fact, I am afraid the Opposition have another think coming to them.

"'Ir. l\Iaher: They were better off then.

l\Ir. INGRAM: How were they better off·?

l\Ir. illa1Jer: By the purchasing power of money.

~Ir. INGRAlii: I was waiting for that interjection. It was a very stupid one. Board and lodging are provided for the nurses so the increased cost of living does not come into the matter. I was waiting for that stupid interjection.

I want to congratulate the Minister and the officers of his department on the magnificent job they are doing on behalf of the people and the benefits they are conferring on the sick and suffering. I hope they will be long spared to continue that work in the future.

Mr. lliORRIS (Enoggera) (2.49 p.m.) : For the past few years since I have been a member of this Chamber I have heard much of what the Government are doing to register professional people. Only the other day we passed a Bill providing for the registration of masseurs, nurses, etc. This morning I heard an amazing reference by the hon. member for Barcoo to a certain unregistered dentist operating in the West by the name of Latchem, to whom I referred earlier in the debate.

I do not know Latchem; I never met him; and I have no idea what his qualifications are -whether he is capable or whether he is not. I know nothing whatsoerver about him, but I clo know he is not a registered drntist. We all know it is the Government's policy that dentists, doctors, accountants, nurses, mas­seurs and others shall be registered; and I believe it is a good policy because I believe it gives to the people a better service than they would get if the policy was otherwise. I believe in the policy. We have the hon. member for Barcoo submitting a case for Latchem, who is not a registered dentist, and saying what a wonderful job he is doing for people out there.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Sltpply. 1109

Jllr~ POWER: I rise to a noint of order. I desrre to draw your attention, Mr. Hilton, to the fact that the case referred to by the hon. member is now before the court; there· fore I contend it is sub judice and should not be discussed. A summons has been issued.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMA1f (Mr. Hilton): The Acting Attorney-General has conveyed that information to the Chair and I ask the hon. member for Enoggera to refrain from discussing the case.

Jlir. JliORRIS: I will take the word of the Acting Attorney-General. If the case is before the court, I did not know the fact. Let me take this point-! am not referring to ~ny prose.cution that may or may not be pend­mg-we JUst had the hon. me-mber for Barcoo pleading the case of a man who is not regis­tered even when the Government themselves have fathered a Bill to cause the registration of all people within that profession. Surely there is something wrong there. I believe that the people in the West, just the same as the people in the cities and everywhere else are entitled to the hest service they can get: What a terrible position we shall get into if the plea that has been put up by the hon. mem­ber for Barcoo is agreed to; we shall automa­t~c~lly have p~ople all over Queensland prac­tlsmg as dentists whether they are qualified or not. Is that fair to the people of the West f Is it fair to the people anywhere else f Of course it is not. Either this man Latchem is qualified or he is not. If he is a qualifie<:l dentist, it is the responsibility of the Government to see that he is a registered qualified dentist. If he is not a qualified dentist, it is their responsibility to see that he i~ not registered and to see he does not prac­tise. There are only two sides to the question. Whethc·r Queensland or the West is short of dentists does not alter that fact in any way. I believe that Queensland is short af doctors <)Ut in the West, but, as I .said two or three years ago, would any member who comes from t~e West let a horse doctor cut out his appen­diXf Of course he would not. It is absurd. He would want a registered doctor to do the job; and rightly so.

The insinuation was made by the hon. mem­ber for Barcoo that I did not know anything about the West. I should like to tell the hon. member that I spent all my early life in the country. I know what country life is. I know what it is to be a mem· ber of a family who could not afford to pay for a dentist; so I think I am qualified to speak on this subject. I repeat that if there is anything wrong with the Dental Acts so that a qualifil'd man cannot register, it is the Government's duty to see that the fault is eradicated, so that a qualified man can be registered.

If people are practising dentistry who are not qualified, it is the duty of the Govern­ment to see that they do not practise.

lUr. LUCKINS (Maree) (2.55 p.m.): The Department of Health and Home Affairs carries many responsibilities. I think it is the moat overworked department in the State.

At the outset I mention a matter that I think calls for the widest publicity and it is this: that the Commonwealth Labour Government have decreed that although . a person has been entitled to a Commonwealth pension, when he enters a mental hospital that right is denied to him. That iii one of the most disgraceful acts that any government have perpetrated on citizens, especially the old people who have helped build this magnificent State of Queensland. Notwith· atanding this, the Commonwealth Government greatly boast of their social services to the people. I believe-! am not sure- that the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs has made representations to the Commonwealth Government on the matter. People living in my area were enjoying pensions, but unfortunately, because of mental disorders, were sent to the mental hospital at Goodna. Now the Commonwealth department,. through its instrumentalities, has called on the children to contribute to the upkeep of their parents at this institution. That is one of the blackest and most disgraceful chapter;. in the history of the Commonwealth.

Jlir. Pie: Despicable!

I\Ir. LUCKINS: It is despicable in every sense of the word. No hon. member in thifl Chamber, whether he is a Labour or Opposi· tion member, can approve of such a method of treating decent people. They are denied anything in the nature of support by the Government. Perhaps, now that they have no vote, they are of no concern to the Common­wealth Labour Government. It is most despicable, and if I did nothing else than to call public attention to it, I should have done a good service to the community.

The Public Curator has a discretionary power under the Act, and if the sons or daughters of an inmate, because of financial circumstances, cannot contribute to the support of a parent at the mental hospital at Goodna he will not call on them to do so. Of course, decent children will not see their parents want.

The 'l'ElUPORARY CHAIRJliAN (Mr. Hilton) : Order! I do not think the matter being discussed is relevant to the Vote for the Chief Office of the Department of Health and Home Affairs.

Jir. L UCKINS: I was referring to the upkeep of the mental hospital at Goodna. The Government should make application to the Commonwealth Government, instead of spending the public moneys of Queensland in the support of people who should be sup­ported by contributions from the Common­wealth Government Social Services Fund, they should make application to the Common­wealth Government. The inmates of the mental hospital should have some allowan.ce to enable them to provide a few of the amenities of life.

)Jr. Aikens: All mental institutions should be free.

:llr. LUCKINS: They should be. The inmates should receive an allowance to corn· pensate them for their disability.

IllO Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Nothing is more degrading than to see the sons and daughters of such people being obliged to take such things as fruit and con­fectionery to the institution. I do not say the inmates are not getting good meals, but there are more things in life than meals. During the last few years I have had brought under my notice many cases that could be relieved if the Government would only take some action. If the Commonwealth will not contribute towards their upkeep I ask the Minister to make some allowance to them.

It was disgusting to find that when this Government built a hospital alongside the institution for the returned soldiers they utilised the labour of the inmates for the purpose. I should like to know whether these people were paid for the work they did. The Government have admitted that the inmates did the work and if they were good enough to be employed they are entitled to adequate remuneration for their services.

I was interested in what the hon. member for Keppel had to say about the building of hospitals in the early days. At that time they were constructed and maintained by voluntary subscription. At Mt. Morgan the workers contributed something like £1 or 30s. a year for this purpose and they received free treatment and service. I speak with authority on this subject because my father was secretary of the Mt. Morgan Hospital many years ago. No doubt similar conditions applied to other hospitals. No aid was rBceived from the Government at all. Wages were then about Ss. a day and living condi­tions were in keeping with those wages. I could quote figures as to what living costs were then but I do not propose to weary the Committee with them.

The hon. member for Keppel said that the Government had built a number of cottages costing between £300 and £400 each in dif­ferent parts of the Stare. Exactly what they were I do not know but I should like to ask what type of accommodation can be built today for that figure. It could be nothing more nor less than a box or small garage.

1Ir. Wanstall: A gunyah.

Mr. LUCKINS: That is more like it. If that is all the Government are doing for the welfare of the people, to my mind they are doing nothing at all, although such accom­modation might be in keeping with the con­ditions prevailing at the moment. It is ·certainly not in keeping with the high ideals that I and many other hon. members have set for hospital accommodation.

I wish now to pay tribute to the manager of the State Children Department. No better man than Mr. Smith could be fouud for that position. I have had many dealings with the department and I appeal to the Govern­ment to increase the allowances paid to the unfortunate children who have been left orphans and who are now in the care of the State.

We should apply ourselves to the care and affection of o·rphaned children, and develop them into men and women by allowing more than we are today. The 12s. a week allowed

to foster mothers for the upkeep of orphaned children is not sufficient. The high cost of living and conditions prevailing at present do not permit of the foster mother's keeping her child•ren as we should like to see them kept. She cannot buy the amenities that they require. Who wants to deny them in the early years of their life the little ameni­ties that we know oH Let us give them these amenities, so that they can derivll, pleasure in their tender years. They have nobody to whom to appeal except Mr. Smith and those associated with him in the depart­ment. I ask the Minister to retrench a little in expenditure on other depaTtments and give the money to the State Children, so that their lives can be brought up to the standard we think should be reached in regard to them.

T'he sum of £100,000 has been set aside for the South Brisbane hospital, but the Minister has assured us that the material required for it is not available. I hope that some effort will be made to get the steel that has been ordered, so that we on the South side can have a hospital of our own, a hospital so urgently needed today. The Brisbane General Hospital is already over-taxed for beds and accommodation, and in the out-patients' department patients have to wait a long time for service, because of shortages of material and men.

1\Ir. Power: There is no shortage of men.

1\Ir. LUCKINS: I was referring to professional men, doc-tors and nurses. The years are fast flying by, and it concerns me to see palatial buildings going up in Queens­land when we are wa_nting so much in the way of hospital accommodation. It should be the first consideration of the Government to protect the ill and infirm and others requiring medical attention. An effort should be made to have public hospitals in ouT suburbs.

Speaking of the Police Department, I believe that special consideration should be given to the retiring policeman a;nd his dependants. The matter h~s been given publicity of late, and I ~ope It does not fall on deaf ears. The pohce render a great service to the State, and it is very seldom that we hear any hon. member of this Com­mittee eulogising the department. So long as I am here I intend to support that depart­ment, because our police are giving a wonderful service in Queensland. One hon. member has pointed out the manifold duties they have to perform, and I want to tell the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs that I am in accord with his proposal. When police are put on duty at night-time in the metropolitan area there should be a patrol of two instead of one, because there are elements in this city and in other parts that take advantage of a single patrol. I am pleased to know that there will be an inC'rease in the number of policemen of the State, because the population is growing apace.

Police are essential. In some countries of the world the military are used instead of police to keep order, but in Australia we

Supply. [2 Nov:E;MJlER.] Supply.

have a special Police Force for this purpose. In Queensland the police are highly esteemed by the public generally, because they con­tribute so much to the welfare of the com­munity in many different ways. Therefore whatevex we can do to improve their lot, whether by promotion or in any other way, will be accepted by our wonderful Police Force as a generous tribute to them on behalf of the community.

In considering any reward for services ren­dered, the Government would do well to bear in mind a comparison that I made in this Chamber many years ago between the con­ditions of members of the Australian Workers' Union and those of the Police Union. There is one plank in the Labour Party's platform that has always appealed to me and I have always made sympathetic reference to it on the public platform and that is that an injury to one is the concern of all. In that connection I should like to remind the Government that many unions contribute towards the welfare of the State and that in considering the conditions of the police, wages, superannuation, and all other matters, they should bear in mind the import· ant fact that they should not differentiate between one union and another. I say that advisedly because all unions contribute to the welfare of the State in many ways. The police are called upon to carry out the law and we have an excellent body of police today. Ninety per cent. of them can be described as excellent but unfortunately, as in all large organisations, you find a small percentage that bring odium and ridicule on the general body. However, in the course of time they will be found out. There have been a number of rumours and reports unfavourable to the Police Force over a period of time, which leaves a temporary stigma upon the general body but I have had a lifetime experience of members of the Police Force, I have travelled in many parts of the world, and I can say that the members of the Queensland Police Force can compare with those of any other Police Force in the British Empire. I should like to remind the Government also that in treating the Police Force generously, especially the retired members and their families, they would be acting in accordance with the sympathetic ideals of the com­munity generally.

In conclusion I should like to thank pre­vious Ministers in charge of this department, the present Premier, the present Secretary for Public Lands and the present Minister, for the great service they have given to the inmates of the lazaret at Peel Island. When I first came into this Chamber I had to fight ve1y hard indeed in an endeavour to get them a lighting system and a water supply. In the course of years the department has pro­vided them with more and more amenities and I understand from the various reports I have had that the inmates at Peel Island are now very comfortable and happy with their increased amenities.

Any matters that I have omitted from this speech will reo live my consideration when the various votes 1 ome up for consideration.

Mr. CLARK (Fitzroy) (3.14 p.m.) : I desire to pay a generous tribute to the Min: ister and his staff for the splendid service they are giving to the community generally.

Much has been said about our hospitalisa­tion scheme. At one time I was secretary to one of the largest hospitals conducted under the old voluntary system. I am very pleased indeed that that hospitalisation system is defunct because it imposed a heavy burden, not only upon the people of the area in which the hospital was situated but upon those who had administered it. I remember the time when the people of Mt. Morgan had to contribute heavily to try to keep their hospital doors open in the depression years. The committee of that hospital and I, who was the then secretary, did everything that was outside the law to keep the hospital doors open.

Mr. Morris: Outside the law?

Mr. CLARK: Yes. We broke the law in practically every way in order to keep , the institution going. It was a very difficult job. I was very pleased indeed when the Government resolved to take over hospitals and make the cost a charge on the Govern­ment.

I was secretary of the Mt. Morgan Hospital from 1929 to 1932. During this debate we have heard Opposition members contend that the nurses and hospital staffs are not sufficiently remunerated. Under the regime of the Moore Government a representa­tive of the Minister's department was sent to Mt. Morgan on three occasions for the purpose of reducing the salaries of nurses and the wages of the domestic staff. Not only did he devote attention to that aspect of hospital expenditure but he notified the committee that it had to reduce the cost of supplies and stores. That is one thing that should never have been done. The efficiency of the hospital was lost and when the effici­ency of a hospital is impaired its good name is affected and it takes a long time to over­eome the prejudice against it.

The hon. member for Maree said he remem­bered the early days of Mt. Morgan. Fortunately, in the early days the old Mt. Morgan Company, not the present company, subsidised the hospital committee of the day £ for £ in building the hospital and in it!! subsequent upkeep. That hospital at one period was one of the most financial hospitals, not only in Queensland, but in the whole of Australia. Its buildings, too, were superior to anything of their kind in that period. The hon. member for Oxley mentioned that a hospital to accommodate 29 beds had been constructed at Southport for £4,000. The hon. member for Keppel mentioned some cottages that had been built at a cost of between £300 and £400. It might well be said that those cottages compared favourably with that hospital. Quite recently the Minis­ter visited Mt. Morgan and opened the new quarters for the matron and sisters. It is

Ul2 Supply.

a very fine building and I want to congra­tulate the contractors, Messrs. McNeil and Rartley. It cost in the vicinity of £6,000. There are nowhere near 29 beds in that build­ing, nevertheless it is a good building. The hospital with 29 beds costing £4,000 cannot be much better than the cottage being built today by the Government at a cost of £400.

The State Children Department is doing excellent work in caring for State children. I want to refer particularly to the staff in Rockhampton, in charge of Mr. J oe Patterson, all of whom are doing a commendable job. Years after children have left the control of the State Children Department Mr. Patterson has received some very grateful letters from them, even though they had passed out of bis hands. That is a very high compliment to the way in which he has discharged his official duties. I can testify to the fact that he is still continuing the good work that he has accomplished over a number of years.

I want to refer also to our old people's home in the Rockhampton area, which I know will be an excellent little community •centre when it is completed. It is handy not only to the amenities in the city but also to the general hospital, and will be very convenient for the old people if they desire to attend a picture show or a concert. I believe that the Government should do more ·of that type of work, because. the old people are entitled to be looked after as much as possible. When one thinks of the pioneering days and the conditions under which the people worked then, one feels acutely that they are entitled to everything it is possible for the Government to give them. I am pleased that the Minister and the department have decided, for instance, to build quarters for married couples in those old-people's meas. I think it is a good idea, if the old people are not prepared to cook their own meals, that they should be able to go to a dining room for their meals and return to their little cottages when they feel like it.

A few weeks ago, in company with the hon. member for Cairns and the hon. member for Mackay, I visited the Goodna Mental Hospital. There was nothing there that I could see of which the Government should not be proud. Everything was in good order; everybody seemed to be moving about and •doing a job; and the patients seemed to be •quite satisfied. Some of the patients knew some of the members I was with and they had a long conversation with them and told them they were getting very good treatment and they could not desire any more than they were getting.

Referring to the Police Department, I wish to pay a tribute to that section of it in , the Central District. I believe the police have a very difficnlt job to do at times. In my opinion our Police Force is equal to any police force in the Commonwealth. It is vastly different from what it used to be in the early days. Today the men are tolerant, and instead of doing things that might make criminals out of men they try to lift the criminal up and help hiw to rehabilitate himself.

Supply.

In conclusion, I wish to repeat that I congratulate the Minister and each and every one of his staff, because I believe they are all doing a good job in carrying out the hospitalisation policy of this State and administering the various other sub­departments that come under his control.

Hon. A. JONE1S (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (3.24 p.m.): There are a few matters raised by hon. members to which I wish to refer now. The hon. member for Cooroora stated that this department appoints health inspectors as building inspectors. That is not in accordance with the facts. I do not think the hon. member made inquiries into the question. This duty is done at the direction of the local authority. The procedure is that the health inspector's appointment is approved by the Director-General of Health and Medical Services. A list of the duties of health inspectors is forwarded to the appointee. We are not concerned at all about building-control and if a health inspector is directed by the local authority to do that class of work it is a matter for arrangement between the local authority and the health inspector. I do not want it to go uncontra­dicted that my department is responsible for directing a health inspector to do building­control work. That wonld not be in accord­ance with fact.

The hon. member stated also that the local health inspectors are not permitted to inspect Government property. Tl1at is not true. Before making statements like this, the hon. member should make inquiries and find out the position. Quarterly reports are made by health inspectors on a printed form and this report makes provision for a health inspector's reporting on Government property. In fact, a special section of the form is allotted to Government property that reads, ''The atten­tion of the Department of Public Health has been directed to the following for action by the department concerned.'' The only thing we insist on in this connection is that the health inspector shall report these matters to the Department of Health, irrespective of what Government department may be involved.

The same hon. member made reference to giving private patients X-ray treatment in public hospitals free of cost. There is a practice, and we have no objection to it, whereby doctors bring private patients to public hospitals and there use the X-ray equipment, but we think it is only right they should pay for the use of the equipment, i.e., pay so much for the X-ray. The hon. member cannot have it both ways. On the one hand he argues against the nationalisa­tion of health with its corollary of free services and on the other he asks for everything free. He cannot have it both ways. There is no reason why a private patient sent to one of our public hospitals and there using the X-ray equipment should not pay a fee. After all, the patient has engaged the services of a doctor practising privately and if the public­hospital equipment is used he is liable to pay.

Supply. [2 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1113

During the debate, mention has been made of the work of the Queensland Health Educa­tional Council. I have had handed to me today a publication just completed hy that council in association with the officers of the Department of Public Instruction. I will allow this book to be passed among hon. members. It is unique. It is really a text­book for schools and contains 384 pages. Educationists and others who have seen it have been greatly impressed by it. It is a splendid publication and will give hon. members some idea of the importance of the work carried out by this body. We have to give some credit to the officers of the Depart­ment of Public Instruction who helped in its compilation.

The hon. member for Barcoo raised the matter of country dentists. I can quite understand the hon. member's having a grouch on this subject because his district has received rather a raw deal compared with most other western areas. Some little time ago dentists were brought from England and of the last batch one was allocated to Barcal­dine. There has been no dental clinic or dental services at Barcaldine, and Blackall and Aramac obtained dental services from Barcaldine. The English dentist arrived in Queensland but on arrival refused to go into the western parts of the State.

lUr. Aikens: How much did it cost to bring him out~

JUr. JONES: It cost a considerable amount. We paid his salary from the time he left until he arrived here. He was accom­panied by his wife and at least one child­there may have been others. The cost of bringing him to Queensland would be in the vicinity of £400 or £500. He refused to go to Barcaldine but has given an assurance that he will repay to the Government the amount it cost us to bring him to Queensland.

)Ir. Aikens: Did he contract?

Jlir. JONES: He contracted in London. I assured the hon. member for Bm·coo that this dentist would be placed at Barcaldine. Everything ~was arranged. On arrival here he had some ideas about the western parts of the State and said that under no circum­stances would he accept a position in that area.

}Ur. Aikens: Is that the man who said he would only go to Brisbane or the South Coast~

lUr. JONES: Yes. I can understand the disappointment of the hon. member for Barcoo, because his is one of the few outback centres to which ,,.e have not been able to give a dental service.

I prefer not to say much about the other gentleman who was mentioned, because his case is to come before the court this week. All I can say is that he has discussed his position with me, and I have advised him that he has not the qualifications. We take the view that a set four-year course is pro­vided at the University for dentists, and it would not be in order to register a man unless he had that training. Some years ago section 8, which is an emergency section, was inserted

1948-2P

in the Act to provide for the setting of a special paper, but it was decided not to use it again. If we took advantage of that section to meet this man's case, perhaps dozens of others in Queensland would think they had an equal right to benefit by its provisions. I might say that his is not an isolated case. I have had cases brought under my notice by hon. members of men in Brisbane, some of whom have been dental mechanics. They consider they are competent to do any work at all and were prepared to sit for the examination, but there is no desire on our part to avail ourselves of that section.

Mr. Aikens: Are you going to try to recover the money from those people who came out to Queensland under contract and refused to carry on with the contract~

)[r. JONES: Yes. We have had difficulty with only about three, and in at least two of those cases some payment has been made already, while the third has entered into an arrangement to make the payment over a period.

The hon. member for Oxley spoke of decentralisation, but he was rather contra­dictory in that he referred to the new hospital at South Brisbane as a further attempt at centralisation on our part. That did not agree with the statement of the hon. member for Maree that this hospital should be com­pleted as soon as possible.

I know the hon. member for Oxley is in a little difficulty at the moment. A few months ago the private hospital in his electorate was closed down, owing to the death of the doctor concerned. I know that it has caused incon­venience to the other doctors in that area, and I have discussed the matter with them and the hon. member for Oxley. They told me they intended opening another private hospital. They are in private practice, and there is really some obligation on them to provide private hospital accommodation. Over the years a considerable number of private hospitals have closed down in Brisbane, and this makes the load on the Mater and our intermediate ward at the General Hospital all the heavier. There is room in Brisbane for a number of additional private hospitals. On many occasions I have been approached by medical men asking whether the Govern­ment would make a grant or subsidise the building of a private hospital.

Of course, that is not our business at all. We are concerned about the hospitalisation of the people generally and when we have done that we have done our duty.

We all know that the idea of decentralisa­tion of health facilities has been discussed on many occasions but the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board is in the same position as other hospitals boards in the matter of building hospitals. I do not endea­vour to apologise for them because we all know the difficulties that confront them in the building of hospitals. They are as anxi­ous a>• hon. members and I are to have hospi­tals built. Some eighteen months ago an order was placed for £60,000 worth of struc­tural steel, to be used mainly in the South Brisbane Hospital, but not one ton of that

1114 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

steel has wen delivered to date. I have discussed the matter with the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board and the archi­tects with a view of hurrying the project along. We are as much concerned as any­body else. The Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board realises the need for build­ing a number of additional hospitals in Brisbane and the board told us some twelve months or two years ago that it was its intention, when materials were available, to build a hospital on the Peninsula to serve Sandgate, Redcliffe and the surrounding area, another hospital in the Wynnum area, and one between Chelmer and Indooroopilly, the area the hon. member for Oxley referred to. The trouble is, however, that you cannot wave a magic wand and build hospitals. We attempted to do something to decentralise and the fact that we approved of the building of a new maternity hospital at Southport is an indication of that fact. That hospital will be built by the Department of Public Works; plans have been approved, the land has been selected, and I understand material is on the site. There are difficulties in the way and hon. members are naturally con­cerned about hospitals, as the health of our people is a very important factor.

The hon. member for Maree raised the question of invalid pensioners who might be sent to Goodna or some mental institution, and said that on their certification their age and invalid pensions were stopped by the Commonwealth Government. That is true. I think hon. members will remember that when I attended a health conference in June of this year the Press reported that I requested the Commonwealth Government to give favour­able consideration to those people. I know that there has been a strong argument that the Commonwealth Government should not do this but I have always maintained that it is the duty of that Government to give consider­ation to those people who might be in those institutions and allow them to retain any privileges and Social Service benefits they enjoyed prior to going into the institution.

A suggestion was made by the hon. mem­ber for Oxley for the building of a cheaper type of hospital and he instanced a 29-bed hospital built at Southport for £4,000. It seems to be a jittery sort of a building and I should not like to suggest in this Chamber that the Government should follow suit. It may be necessa:ry at times to improvise accommodation bnt our policy is to build something fairly substantial. Criticism has been levelled at the huts provided at the old people's estate, the Eventide Home, and at some of the hospitals. They were described as shoddy and it was said that they cost only £400.

To those hon. members who made those complaints I can only say that they have never seen these places. In any case hon. members opposite are inconsistent. On the one hand the hon. member for Oxley said that a 29-bed hospital could be built at Southport for £4,000 to accommodate a con­siderable number of people including the staff and then we have the criticiiiDl that a hut for aged pensioners costing £400 was not enough and that we were building only hovels.

Mr. Pie: That criticism was made by two different hon. members.

Mr. JONES: Yes, but they were contradictory.

Mr. Pie: I should not like to build a cottage for £400.

1\Ir. JONES: They must appreciate the fact that these cottages were associated with a central dining hall. I invite any hon. member to go along and see the dozen cot­tages that we have built in Rockhampton. Each of them has a very good bath. There is a septic system and I say that they are very fine little places. We were asked to give some information to an Al;'lerican organisation about what we were domg for the old people of the State. We gave them photos. of the buildings and a g.reat deal o.f general information and the Amencan authori­ties wrote back to say that Queensland was very well ahead in the facilities that we had provided for our old people.

One pleasing feature of this debate is that not one hon. member has made any reference to Eventide at Sandgate but if you look up '' Hansard'' for 1946 you will find that it is full of it, that hon. member after hon. member got up and criticised the institution.

Mr. Morris: There is a special vote for that.

Mr. JONES: On that occasion the discussion on Eventide at Sandgate took place on the Chief Office Vote and if hon. members opposite had thought that it had No. 1 priority on this occasion they would have raised it. The fact that they have not can be taken as a compliment to the officers associated with Eventide and that it does not call for any criticism.

Mr. Pie: There will be some criticism.

Mr. JONES: There may be. I have replied to most of the matters raised in the course of the debate on this vote but I have no doubt that other matters will be raised on other votes.

Vote (Department of Health and Home Affairs-Chief Office) agreed to.

NATIVE AFFAIRS.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Tower.s­Secretary for Health and Home Affaus) (3.43 p.m.) : I move-

" That £203,338 be granted for 'Native Affairs.' ''

The appropriation for 1947-48 was £172,173 and the amount expended was £18!J,259. 'J7he amount required for 1948-49 IS salanes, £63 529 and contingencies £139,809, a total of £203,338. The estimated increase ~n 1948-49 on the appropriation for 1947-48 IS £31,165 and the estimated increase on the. amount expended in 1947-49 is £20,088. The mcrea~ed amount required for 1948-49 compared With the amount expended during 1_9~7-48 is due to salaries, being increal'!ed provisi_on consequent upon adjustment in the basic wage and

Supply. [2 NovEMBE:t.] Supply. 1115

increases under awards, increases in staff, part of which is due to the reorganisation of the Director's office and its transfe1· to Thursday Island.

One of the most important happenings in this sub-department during the year has been the attempt to decentralise administration. In the past, the Director of Native Affairs has had his office in Brisbane and the department has been administered from this centre. This year, after giving the matter consideration, particularly that of the 20,000 aboriginal population, including the 5,000 natives of Torres Strait, approximately 15,000 live north of Townsville, we decided to move the administrative centre to Thursday Island. Hon. members will appreciate the reason for moving the administrative office from Brisbane to a place more centrally situated for administration purposes.

There is another important factor. It is this: most of the aboriginals south of Town~­ville are in settlements. There are the Palm Island, the W oorabinda, and the Cherbourg settlements, where almost all the aboriginals south of Townsville are cared for. The nomadic type of aboriginal, who provides the greatest population, is situated north of Townsville.

Recently the department bought a boat, the ''George Bass,'' from the Tasmanian Govern­ment at a cost of £20,000. This is necessary for the administration of native affairs. Great difficulty had been experienced in servicing the island population and in getting a suitable boat for duty in the Torres Strait. The purchase of this boat will give us a better opportunity to service the Torres Strait islands. They are among those places that suffered greatly during the war. The menfolk were called up for service and as a result the islands became in a chaotic condition. Since the war we have not got back to normal. A number of white teachers have been allotted to the various islands and now that the administrative office of the Director of Native Affairs has been removed from Bris­bane to Thursday Island we think the work of this sub-department will be improved.

l1'£r. WANSTALL (Toowong) (3.48 p.m.): The reference by the Minister to the recent decision of the Government to decentralise the administration of the Sub-department of Native Affairs, whilst characterised by him as the most important happening in the depart­ment during the year, cannot be so regarded by me. I do agree with him that it is a monumental step forward to remove the head office on the administrative side to the locality in which the greater part of the work is carried on, but I do not agree that it is the outstanding fact worthy of mention in connection with this sub-department.

This sub-department has been worrying me considerably over a number of years. Any hon. member could not have read the annual reports of the Auditor-General from the year 1945-46 up to the present without being greatly perturbed over the events and the business of the affairs of this sub-department, particularly in relation to Thursday Island and the Torres Strait islands. These reports

have disclosed most glaring shortages and defalcations in the accounts of the depart­ment in its administration in Torres Strait.

I should like to remind the Committee that in his report on the matter for the year 1945-46, at page 158 the Auditor-General dis­closes shortages in cash and stock in five of the branch store,s run by the Island Industries Board amounting to £664 15s. 1d. The stan­dard comment on each one of these defalca­tions, was ''The matter is under investiga­tion.''

Now, in the year 1946-47, at page 162 t;he number of branch stores of the Island Indus­tries Board involved in these shortages has grown from 5 to 13, and the total amoiLl!nt involved in shortages of stock and cash has grown from £600 to £3,071 3s. 10d. In the Auditor-General's report we have that stock phrase ' ' The matter is unde.r investigation.'' These ' s,hortages, particularly in the year 1946-47, are very grave and they represe~t quite a large amount. At the branch at Kubm the shortage was £685 19s. 6d., at Yam the shortage was £715 1 5s. 4d., and at Boigu the shortage was nearly £350, and at Murray the shortage was £390 5s. 5d.. And th~ stoc~ explanation is ''The matter 1s under mvestl­gation.''

So perturbed was I concerning the si~uation coupled with the other fact that m t,he A uditor-Ge.neral 's report there was under the heading of ''Burglary and thefts'' a report of a theft of £461 10s. from th;e office of the director that I asked some questions in the Hml'se at the end of last year and a.gain early this year. The matter was investigated by Detective Sergeant Hird, who was sent to Thursday Island from Townsville. Acco~d­ing to the Auditor-General's report the pohce inquiries were without result.

There has ,been no disclosure as to the cir­cumstances in which that vast amou1_1t of casb)---and when I say vast I do so adv1sedly because iit is a large amount of cash to be stolen from a Government office in this 8tate -was stolen. I understand the circumstances were that the officer who had charge. of t~e keys, was, to say tho least of it, negligent m taking care of those keys,, so they were taken from his clothes, the safe was opE!Ile~, and the money was stolen. Thes·e are the cncum­stances as they have been told to me.

However to continue with the complet~on of this pict~re of maladministratioll: and lax1~y in accounting in the Island Industnes Board s branch stores, we ~ow that in the year 194 7-48 the number mvolved has grown first from 5, then to 13, and it has now reached 14, and the total sum involved has grown to £3,315 9s. 2d. And again the Audit~r-Gen~ral reports that ''The matter is under mvestlga­tio,1.''

As I mentioned earlier, on 30 October, 1947, I directed some questions in this House con­cerning this position to th9i then Secretary for Health and Home Affairs and to the Pre­mier. One of my questions suggested that the Auditor-General's re.port should follow up these matters which are under investigation and that a supplementary report should be

1116 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

presented to !ton. members for their informa­tion. I am pleased to note that that was done in the current Au<:litor-General 's report. And in addition, in answeT to a question, the Pre­mier undertook to table a Teport from the AQlditor-General, and that was tabled in the House and printed on 26 November, 1947.

~fr. Jones: I tabled it_

Mr. WAN STALL: The Premier under­took to do so. The Auditor-General this year does follow up some of those outstanding defalcations, which all110unt to approximately £7,000 over three years. And they are still under investigation! In his Teport for this year he follows through the defalcations mentioned in 1945-46 and 1946-47.

So far as the particular defalcations which relate to the Islands Industries Board at Thursday Island, are concerned, this is the position: Of the total sum of £7,000 shortages in cash and stock in these branch stores, spread over three years, recovery of £2 2s. has been made. The Auditor-General states that investigations coneBrning the £3,071, which was the shortage in 1946-47 in these branch stores, are still proceeding. Is not this the position: While these investigations are proceeding further shortages in cash and stock to the extent of £3,300 occur-while the departmental heads are on the job carrying out these investigations a further £3,000 worth goes off under their very noses~ What sort of investigations are these~

1\fr. Jones: Those statements are not correct. It does not follow that it happened after the investigation began.

~Ir. W AN:STALL: If it did not happen after the investigation began that merely deprives me of the benefit of the point that it oecurred under their verv noses. It does not detract from the fact that during the past thrPe years approximately £7,000 has been lost by the Island Industries Board's branch stores.

~Ir. Jones: Most of those took place during the war years.

~Ir. WANSTALL: I thought the Minister would make that excuse; he made it to me in October, 1947. I will reply to the Minister by saying that far from that being the fact, it is quite the contrary, because the bulk of this £7,000 occurred since the end of the war-£3,071 in 1946-47 and the largest sum of all, £3,315, in the financial year that ended a few months ago. It is ridiculous for the hon. gentleman to say these occurred during the war.

~Ir. Jones: I repeat it.

1\fr. WAN STALL: Unless the Minister thinks the war is still on in Torres Straits. Of course it is not. I appreciate there are difficulties in the aftermath of the war but it is concerning these difficulties that the department is reprehensible.

Audit Inspector Mr. Colin Austin was sent to Thursday Island. He was there for five n;.onths and in the course of his investiga­tions made the most sensational discoveries

of defalcations, shortages, maladministration and laxity in accounting, so much so that the Minister went on a special trip to the Torres Straits shortly after.

Mr. JONES: No, I did not. That is not true. I rise to a point of order. I object to these insinuations. I went to Torres Straits for the purpose of opening a conference of chiefs from the 12 Torres Strait Islands. To make the suggestion that I went in connec­tion with these defalcations is entirely with­out foundation.

~Ir •. WAN STALL: I accept the hon. gentleman's denial. There was no reflection on him in my statement. As a matter of fact, it was a commendation. If I had been the Minister and such grave shortages had been discovered, one of the first things I should do would be to investigate, as the Secretary for Public Works and Housing, in connection with the shortages in the State Housing Commission's projects, made it his personal responsibility.

~Ir. Jones: You legal chaps will have me believing I took the money in a minute.

~Ir. WAN STALL: It is a matter that I think !ton. members should raise in this Chamber. It is a matter of the gravest scandal in the public finances of the State. During his audit in his five months' visit, Audit Inspector Austin discovered that it was almost impossible to carry out any physical audit of the board's stock. There was on Thursday Island an auction sale of surplus stock of the board, and Mr. Austin discovered a cash sale docket for £3,760 showing no details whatever of the stock involved. How could any audit inspector carry on any investigation in these circumstances~

I am informed that sewing machines, refrigerators and stoves were not accounted for and this audit inspector went hunting round the island looking for them himself and found one or two of them. I believe the Government have been perturbed over these matters for some time and it was because of the discovery by Mr. Austin of some of the things I have mentioned, and a good many more that I do not mention because I do not know anything about them, that the Government appointed the former chief stipendiary magistrate, Mr. Camera~, to ~sit Thursday Island and carry out an mvestiga­tion, which was the prroper thing to do.

But the Minister's duty does not end when he appoints a magistrate to carry out an investigation; it does not end until he presents Mr. Cameron 's report to this Chamber. The Minister has had every oppor­tunity of presenting Mr. Cameron 's report, but he has not done so. Why~ Is he afraid of the disclosures contained in it~ In March this year I asked him whether he would table the report and his reply was that he had not got it yet. Since then the report has come to hand and it could and should have been put on the table of the House. I want to know why it has not been put on the table.

For the information of !ton. members perhaps I might be able to suggest some of

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1117

the things that were investigated. Mr. Cameron was accompanied by Mr. Eric Orellin. In addition to investigating the defalcations and shortages, he was to conduct an investigation into the repor,ted unsavoury living conditions of many of the islanders there. Some of the conditions under which these unfortunate islanders have been forced to live in Thursday Island are a disgrace to our community.

lUr. Jones: Have you been there?

lUr. WANSTALL: No, but I have accurate information on Thursday Island, as the JYfinister shows by his face.

l\Ir. Jones: Not at all. I think you are just guessing and using legal tacties.

l\Ir. WANSTALL: I am going to give some specific >references in a moment and I challenge the Minister to table Mr. Cameron 's report. That will test him.

l\lr. Jones: I have nothing to hide.

lUr. WAN STALL: Will the Minister table the report 1 I dare him to table it.

Mr. Jones: You are not in the court now.

l\Ir. WAN STALL: I dare the Minister to table that report.

JUr. Jones: You have not got some old lady in the witness box now.

l\Ir. WAN STALL: The Minister looks about as worried as some of those ladies look because he has fallen down on his duty by not tabling that report, and that is the only criticism I have to offer of the Minister. I do not say he is responsible for these matters but I do say it is his duty to bring such a report before the House.

Mr. Jones: You are not going to intimidate me.

l\Ir. WAN STALL: I am not intimidating the Minister, nor am I even trying to do so. I suggest to him that a good deal of responsi­bility for the unsavoury living conditions of the islanders is atJtributable to the depart­mental policy of bringing the head retail store in from Badu Island to Thursday Island. In pre-war days the head retail store was on Badu. The islanders were paid at Badu on the Badu store. Now they are paid on the Thursday Island head-office store. On Thursday Island there are liquor licenses; on Badu Island there was none. Thursday Island is wet, while Badu is dry. Now, because of the department's policy, all the natives are d'rawn as into a vortex into Thurs­day Island where they are thrown open to the temptation of liquor that is available from legitimate and illegitimate sources. I am told that there is thriving traffic with the natives in a potent jungle juice that is brewed from cocoanut juice, methylated spirits and tooth paste, which is peddled to the natives at £1 a bottle.

~Ir. Brown: Any boot polish?

Mr. W AN,STALL: I do not know whether it has boot polish in it but probably it would be improved by it. So far as the Government

are concerned, the mistake occurs in centralis­ing the natives on Thursday Island whe~ these conditions exist and where there 1s temptation at their door.

l\Ir. Aikens: Do you suggest they spend their money on liquor instead of food~

lUr. WANSTALL: I suggest that to a large extent there is trafficking with the Torres Strait islanders in liquor and to a lesser extent in black-market tobacco.

lUr. Power: Have you brought this under the notice of the authorities~

Mr. WAN STALL: Have I brought this under the notice of the authorities~ Mr. Cameron did.

lUr. Power: How do you know that?

l\Ir. WAN STALL: I know he investigated that. I do not want suggestions from any Minister--

lUr. Power: You put yourself in there.

l\Ir. W ANSTALL: Do I interpret the Minister's suggestion as being a threat to make another secret-document case of my dis­closures~

.i\Ir. Power: You can interpret it how you like.

lUr. WANSTALL: I have had no conversation with Mr. Cameron.

lUr. Power: I never said you did.

Mr. W ANSTALL: I know from Thursday Illand sources some of the things that Mr. Cameron investigated.

The Minister asked whether I had brought this matter under the notice of the authorities. To that I say no, because the authorities appointed a special commissioner.

lUr. Aikens: Have you seen Mr. Cameron 's reporH

~lr. WAN STALL: Nobody has seen it. It has been closeted away in a secret pigeon hole. I should like to see it.

The Torres Strait Islander is not rationed and he can buy his butter and tea and clothing at the Island Industries Board stores without coupons. You can see how black­marketing can go on when one section of a community can get uncouponed goods and another section has to exchange coupons. Natives have relatively large sums of money available to be spent on black-market liquor and the other abuses current there. I believe, and I make this charge also, that the amount of drinking amongst Torres Strait Islanders has grown out of all proportion in the last 12 .or 18 months, so much so that the police on Thursday Island are haYing a terrific job to control it.

JUr. Smith: Owing to lack of control by the Army when in occupation.

])fr. W ANSTALL: I do not care. The Police Force on Thursday Island has not a motor vehicle-it might have got one recently.

Jlir. J ones: The island is only half mile round.

1118 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

l'IIr. W ANSTALL: The police station is three-quarters of a mile away from a particular native settlement where a good deal of trouble goes on, and I refer the Minister to the Mill Hill patrol. The lack of a police motor vehicle is a serious handicap and the need for such a vehicle is demon­strated by the fact that on many occasions the police on Thursday Island borrow private citizens' vehicles to help them in their work. Let the Minister say that it is not necessary.

Mr •• Tones: I saw "For hire" cars there. I hired one myself.

Mr. WAN STALL: And frequently hired by the police. a motor truck--

they are If they had

Mr. Joues: I was there with the police and the request for one was never made to me.

Mr. W AN,STALL: The Island Industries Board is not above exploiting the natives as it did at Christmas, 1946, when £20,000 was paid out in pay to the natives. The board bought up large consignments of dresses, handbags, and drapery, and it sold dresses to the natives for 15 to 20 guineas and hand­bags for £5. I am not suggesting that there was an exorbitant profit in the mark-up of those articles, but it is unscrupulous for the board to import articles of that kind and sell them to the natives at Christmas time. If the Government know of this and take no action they are responsible for it. These are matters for ventilation in this Committee in order to draw attention to the serious stat~ of affairs that has existed, which as the Auditor-General's report says is getting worse instead of better.

lUr. Aikeus: And it will be probably worse next year.

Mr. WAN STALL: I am prepared to say that it will be worse next year unless a very drastic change is made, if I am not the worst gue~ser in this Chamber, and I say that some desuable reforms have been suggested in Mr. Cameron '.s report whiich should have been brought before us for the information of hon. members.

Mr. Joues: You know too much about Mr. Cameron 's report.

~Ir. WAN STALL: I know a good deal about the conditions at Thursday Island, and from the remark of the Minister I should say that I am hitting the mark. I have been waiting for the opportunity for two years to debate these Estimates and my information or collection of information goes back to that time. Things have not been getting any better from an adminstra.tive point of view in the meantime.

I have a much more serious matter con­cerning the Islands Industries Board to bring before the Chamber but time will not permit me to develop it just now. I hope at some later time to have the opportunity of bringing it before the attention of hon. members.

To sum up, the conditions of the Torres Strait Islanders are today infinitely worse than they have ever been before, bnt despite

that fact the Native Affairs Department pre­sents a most glowing report to this Parlia­ment. The whole of the report is a hypocri­tical sham, having regard to the conditions that undoubtedly exist at Thursday Island. The fact that the natives have large sums of the white man's money is of no advantage to them because their morality, their morale, and their self-relim1ce ha.ve been undermined, because they have been made the prey of the white racketeer and the exploiter, the beach­combing type of men who are prepared to trade with them in this illicit jungle juice of the kind that I have mentioned. It means very easy money for them.

lUr. J ones: And members of your own party are in it.

lUr. WAN STALL: And members of the Minister's own Labour Party are in it.

JUr. Jones: Taking the grog in.

~Ir. W ANSTALL: I do not care who is taking the grog in or what political party is involved. That is not the point. The Minister cannot divert responsibility from the Govern­ment for these serious things. It is his responsibility and the responsibility of his Government to deal with this shocking state of affairs, both administratively and from the point of view of the living conditions of the natives. He should do that instead of trying to pull the wool over the eyes of hon. members and by putting in glowing reports from his department concerning the conditions at this place. There should be a proper, full and frank disclosure of the state of affairs there.

Jir. TURNER (Kelvin Grove) (4.13 p.m.): This is one sub-department with which every hon. member should be happy to be associated. We should be proud of the humane work that the department is doing for the natives of this country. The sug­gestions made by the hon. member for Too­wong are a reflection on the Director of Native Affairs.

~I r. Wanstall: The Director was not there.

Jir. TURNER: It does not matter whether he is there or not, he is responsible for the administration of the department. Never before have we had more capable officers in this department. I visited Cher­bourg and I saw the good work the depart­ment is doing there. There has been a tre­mendous improvement in the living conditions at Cherbourg; indeed, they were a revelation to me. I visited that settlement on the occa­sion of its last show, and I saw the work the department was doing, especially at the schools there. Wonderful work is being done in the domestic science classes. The mid-day meal supplied to us, prepared by the child:en in the domestic-science classes, left nothmg to be desired. A better meal could not be got anywhere els_e, a~d it was all pre~ared by the native guls m the domest1c-sc1ence classes.

The amount of manual training given by the department a.lso was a revelation to me. The standard of work, particularly carpenter­ing and cabinet-making, was high, and I

Supply. [2 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1119

know something about both these trades. The report sets out the different types of work being carried out by the various officers at this settlement.

A very :fine hospital is attached to the settlement, with the matron and three nurses as a staff. They are doing a wonderful job. An area is cultivated and under crops with the aid of irrigation. A large number of cattle are running on the settlement. They have established a dairy with some of the best types of cows that can be obtained. There is also a piggery and poultry-raising is engaged in. It was the Director's ambition to have onions planted this season. He believes that he will have a record crop as every facility is there for their production. Potatoes also are produced. Quite a number of homes have been built by the natives. In these cottages electric light is supplied from the station and water is laid on.

Unfortunately I was not able to accept an invitation to visit Woorabinda as Parlia­ment was sitting. At the Woorabinda show a competition was held, the three native settle­ments competing. There was very keen com­petition between the natives of the settle­ments. This competition is held annually and the exhibits were worth seeing. The natives bought an Air Force hut at Longreach and natives under a welfare officer went from Cherbourg to Longreach to demolish it. They then brought it to Cherbourg and re-erected it. It is in this hut that all the settlement functions are held. They comprise moving pictures, dances, and concerts. The night we were present a concert was staged that was worth going hundreds of miles to see. If a similar concert were given in a Brisbane theatre one would have difficulty in getting into it. All that work is under the direction of the welfare officer. I was amazed at the standard of the performance. Every artist was splendid and reflected great credit on the Department.

Woorabinda has engaged in cattle-breed­ing. The number of cattle run on that settle­ment and the out-station at Foleyville number over 4,000. They are being sent at regular intervals to market.

The three native settlements are now virtually self-supporting. The Palm Island natives were encouraged to produce vegetables. Last year an extraordinary crop was pro­duced. Some of the crops were sent to the other two settlements. This reduces the cost of administration. In the near future not only will each settlement be self-support­ing but there will be a marked increase in the output and returns.

I know too the wonderful work being done by the Presbyterian Church at its various mission stations in the Gulf country. That church is endeavouring, as far as its :finances will permit, to develop these mission stations on lines similar to those followed in the three settlements I have mentioned. Excellent officers are in charge of them. On Weipa station the ambition of Mr. Wynn, the

missionary in charge, and his wife, as well as those in charge of the other stations, is to develop them by imbuing the natives with the idea that they must do something for them­selves. Some of these stations engage in cattle-breeding and others devote their energies to providing food for the natives. Mr. Wynn is satisfied that what has been done- at Cherbourg can be done in many directions on these mission settlements in the Gulf.

I am hoping that the Government will pro­vide the necessary :finance to enable the Pres­byterian mission to develop its station at least to the point where it is self-supporting.

lUr. H. B. Taylor: They should.

::lfr. TURNER: I believe they will. I agree that they should. Wherever we have people who are prepared to go out and look after these primitive peoples and educate and domesticate them and make them feel that they are human beingE~, I believe they should be encouraged to the fullest extent. A few days ago I was tallring to Mr. 0 'Leary, and he was Yery optimistic about the possibilities of making a substantial donation to the Pres­byterian mission for the development of its holding. The administrative officers are sat­isfied that the mission is doing a mighty job. Mr. 0 'Leary sang their praises to me very freely and he said that they were doing a marYellous job when one considered that the type of aboriginals they had to deal with was more primitive than the type from Cher­bourg, Palm Island or Woorabinda. The further north you go the less domesticated they are and consequently they are much harder to deal with. I was happy to read in the Press within the pat!t few days, and in a report I got from the Presbyterian mission, that they have been able to take the natives off Bentinck Island who had been left there after the last visit. The Minister informed me that they have cleared Bentinck Island completely.

Jlir. H. B. Taylor: Bentinck Island was not the responsibility of the mission.

lUr. TURNER: No, but they took the responsibility. They took the view that although they were virtually uncivilised they were still human beings and they thought it their duty to do anything for them that lay in their power. They took over some of the Bentinck Islanders that they had taken away from the Island during the last year and domesticated, to act as decoys to get the wild natives to come aboard. Only a few years ago, when an attempt was made to land on Bentinck Island, with a view to Christianis­ing these peoples, it had to be abandoned. 'l'he old bucks were all there with their spears and implements of war, and the Rev. D. A. Brown almost lost his life in an attempt to go ashore with articles to attract them in an effort to make friends with them. I am glad to know that the last of them have been taken from Bentinck Island and they are now safe on Mornington Island, 'Yhere they are well cared for.

ll20 Supply. [ASSEMBL Y.J Supply.

I congratulate the Government. I feel honomed to be associated with a Parliament that is doing so much for these people. I think it was a great move to transfer Mr 0 'Leary 's headquarters to Thursday Island to put down the malpractices referred to bv the hon. member for Toowong. Mr. 0 'Leary certainly would stamp them out. If there is anY: need for more help from the depart­ment m the way of police assistance it will be readily supplied. I look forward to the day when these people, no matter how remotely situated, will be cared for to the utmost possible extent by the department.

lion. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) ( 4.24 p.m.) : I listened with attention to the remarks of the hon. member for Toowong. ~ne v~ould think that I had something to hide m thrs matter, that there was something I was not willing to do or something I wanted to keep secret. I say quite definitely that there is nothing in this matter to which I am not afraid to give full publicity, as far as I am personally concerned. I never was one -even if the result of disclosure would be a little bit of odium affecting myself-who wanted to cover up. I do not believe in tlwt; I do not think any public man should do that.

The hon. member for Toowong, with his legal mind, used all the wiles of the solicitor and attempted to make a case that really did not exist.

I am satisfied that the hon. member for Toowong has seen one of the reports. I do not care whether he has. Any hon. member in this Chamber can see the report.

lUr. Pie: Why not table it?

~Ir. JONES: I have nothing to hide. I believe the hon. member has seen the report. As a matter of fact, I have perused the report and know the contents. But the hon. member would make it appear that all these things happened since the cessation of hostilities. What was the position in the Torres Straits during the war years~ Every hon. member knows very well that the place was deserted. There was nobody on Thurs­day Island but the military. Any hon. mem­ber who visits Thursday Island today-and it is now some years since the war ended­will be absolutely astounded. It is really a shambles. For years there was no local authority. It was only this year that local government was re-established. Elections were held. When I visited there in October of last year I was absolutely astounded at the way in which the p•roperty, buildings, houses and ever,ything had been kno.cked about. Ther:e was an air of depression and neglect about the place. Immediately I returned to Brisbane I recommended to Cabinet the establishment of local govern­ment as soon as possible because I realised that having a representative of the Depart­ment of Local Government controlling the Island was not conducive to the best form of government. I thought it better to place the <responsibility on the people themselves.

In connection with the point made by the hon. member for Toowong, most of the defalcations took place during the war years, no matter what the hon. member might say. In those years the twelve Tones Strait Islands were virtually deserted so far as the native men were concerned. As a matter of fact, there was great concern as to whether these people might not perish. There were roughly 1,000 men of the T'orres Strait Islands in the forces.

For the information of hon. members the form of control in the Torres Strait Islands was this: there are twelve islands and an Act was put through this Parliament in 1939, I think, by the Premier, who was then. Secre­tary for Health and Home Affairs, giving a form of local autonomy to the islanders in the 12 Torres Strait islands. They hold elections every three years, just as we do, and appoint three councillors to look after their affai'rS during that period. Every three years they hold a conference on Thursday Island but on the occasion when I visited the Island last year this conference was held on Badu. Three councillors from each of the islands, 36 in all, attended that conference. It was very interesting. One found that the majority of these men were concerned about rehabilitation and when I returned one of the fi•rst things I did was to recommend to the Government the return of the white teachers to the Islands. There were white teachers prior to the war but, as can be readily understood, when the war broke out they left the Islands. The natives of these islands are intelligent people. As a matter of fact, at Badn there is a very fine secondaTy school. After the white teachers left, how­ever, in many instances there were only native teachers, with no knowledge, endeavour­ing to do the best they could.

Within two months of my return to Bris­bane the Department of Public Instruction made available to us four married teachers who were sent to fowr of these islands. To­day most of these islands have a white teacher who lives under very good conditions, for instance in houses costing approximately £2,500. They have refrigeration, which is only proper in a place such as that. I want hon. members to try to get a true picture of the place during the war years. That is my argument.

Of course, I would not argue there were no defalcations. It would be very stupid of me to do so. We have the Auditor-General's report on that. But I do not want it to be said that I took no action. As a matter of fact, I have been responsible for sending special police to Thursday Island to investi­gate not only the defalcations but also the racketeering in grog. I saw some of the police myself and told them what I had learnt when I was on the island and what I had been told as to the source of the grog. I agree that grog was going in, and it has a bad effect on the natives. All the people on Thursday Island will tell you that it is going in. I might point out that it is not som3 little racketeer who was sending in the grog but

Supply. [2 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1121

the big firms. They were sending inferior whisky and wines to Thursday Island because they could not sell them on the mainland.

In one instance the wl1arf labourers were unloading a big case marked ''Sundries.'' A board came loose and a couple of bottles fell out. They picked them up and saw that they contained rum. An examination of the case disclosed that it contained only grog. The man to whom it was consigned said that there had been a mistake, that he had not ordered grog, and he wanted it sent back to Cairns straight away. That was his protection.

.:llr. Wanstall: He was a Chinaman.

~fr. ;wNES: I am not saying what he was. It would not be fair to make a state­ment as to whom he was. There is only one man of that nationality on the Island and I could not state who he was.

This is not something that cropped up suddenly. The Commissioner of Police sent up special officers, men who he thought knew the island. He sent up one young man who had a great deal of experience in the islands off North Australia. He sent also several detectives, but it was impossible to trace the source of the grog. We knew it was coming in and we went to great lengths to trace its source, but without success.

This sly grog is not going into Thursday Island now. I admit that it was at the time to which the hon. member for Toowong refers but it is not now. '

When I got the police reports I took them to Cabinet. I said, ''These police reports have been submitted to the Solicitor-General and he thinks that no action can be taken against the people whose names have been mentioned. I think the best thing to do is to get Mr. Cameron to go up and make an investigation, with a Public Service inspector.'' Mr. Cameron knew Thursday Island and the islanders. We had a talk with the Public Service Commissioner who thonO'ht it was a good idea. These tw~ men put '"in about a month on the island and visited some of the other Torres Strait islands, going to a good deal of trouble delving into the matter. Mr. Camcron furnished a report. That report and all the papers connected with it have been referred to the Solicitor-General to see what action can be taken.

The organisation in the period since the war has not been absolutely satisfactory. 'l'hat is one reason why we appointed a new n1anager of the Island Industries Board in the _Torres Strait recently and why we appomted a new accountant. The new Director knows the islands. He has spent many years of his life there and I believe that we can now so organise that these thinO's will not happen in the future. "'

I know, and hon. members opposite must know, that it was easy for these things to happen. The origin of most of the trouble was during the war years and after the war ended-and when I speak of the war I am uot referring to the end of the war in 1945, because when I went up there in October last year one would have thought the war was still on. The place was in a terrible mess. Some buildings were completely demolished.

'!'here were many natives on the island at the time. As soon as I came back, we sent up a health inspector to help the health insvector there in looking after the hygiene of the people.

It is easy for hon. members to make state­ments to make it appear that Thursday Island is in a bad state but the set-up is different from what one would expect at places like Bundaberg, Rockhampton or Townsville. I should like the hon. member for Toowong to see Thursday Island, and see exactly what we are trying to do. I have arranged for the erection of an infectious­diseases hospital, using an old military hospital on the island, and we have put in an electric-light plant and are putting in a two-way radio to connect not only with the Torres Strait islands but with the Presby­terian missions on the Cape. I want to impress upon hon. members that we have attempted to do something since the war ended. I know that conditions are not satis­factory but you cannot get away from the fact that the place was in a chaotic condition.

An Opposition lliember: Did not the last Auditor-General's report show a loss of £3,000 on the financial year's trading~

lUr. JONES: He deals with that in that year. These defalcations have been picked up from time to time, and I am not suggest­ing there were not certain irregularities there &fter t!1e enu of hostilities but the origin of them was during the war years.

The hon. member for Toowong referred to branch stores. During the war years--

3fr. Kerr: No audit was conducted during the war.

Jir. JONES: That is quite so. There could not be audits uuring the war years; you would not expect it. As a matter of fact, the school teacher is usually the man who controls that sort of thing. He looks after the store and with him there is a native subject to his instructions. Hon. members must realise that during the war years foodstuffs had to be taken to the islands on boats ancl landed there. It was a question of getting food there somehow. We were not concerned about auditing of books because in nine cases out of ten the cnly person to take vossession of the goods was perhaps a native, who might have been too old for war service; or it might have been a woman who took possession of the goods. That was the position at that time and it should be borne in mind. \Vhen this story is told-and I am not suggesting that the hon. member for Toowong was distorting it in any way-it will appear that these things happened as a result of the war. I liave gone into the matter fully, and I am prepared to ask the Auditor-General for a special report. I have nothing to hide. I am not above letting the hon. member see the papers in relation to the matter or tabling them--

JUr. Wanstall: Mr. Cameron's report, too~

1122 Supply. [ASSEMBLY,]

Mr. JONES: Yes. I have nothing to fear. I have done all I could, in association with the police, to unravel things.

At my request Cabinet decided to send Mr. _Cameron and a Public Service inspector. Havmg got the reports, we submitted them to the Solicitor-General. What more could I do~ I am not a barrister. I could not decide whether a charge would lie. The Solicitor-General said that no charge lay and that is all I know. If he had said that we should charge some people whose names were mentioned, we should certainly have done so and it would have been our duty to do so. The Auditor-General would have insisted.

lUr. Pie: Do you not feel better about these things now that you have explained everything~

JUr. JONES: I feel very good now. I backed the winner of the Melbourne Cup. (Laughter).

llir. Wanstall: The report of the Director of Native Affairs does not mention one word about these things but he makes a glowing report.

I\Ir. JONES: The hon. member should understand that the report was presented in June of this year and we were still in the investigation period.

~rr. Wanstall: Mr. Cameron went there in January and he came back in February.

JUr. JONES: We were making investiga­tions apart from the one being conducted by Mr. Cameron. The Auditor-General was inquiring into certain matters and we had to enlist the aid of the police.

llfr. SlUITH ( Carpentaria) ( 4.42 p.m.) : ~ feel that I can say that apart from isolated mstances the Sub-Department of Native Affairs is doing very good work in the State, and I can express an opinion because nearly all the missions in this State are in the Car­pentaria electorate. The sub-department is doing splendid work, extending over thou­sands of miles in isolated and remote parts of the Gulf and the Peninsula. In some areas the local police sergeant is in charge of it. I know that certain things have occurred. I could do as the hon. member for Toowong has done, I could get up in this Chamber and rea.-J. a brief about letters written to me con­cerning conditions at Thursday Island but what would be the good of doing that~ It would be said that I was trying to gain some political advantage. What is to be gained by trying to score off the Minister, by mak­ing reflections on the Government, or Mr. Robinson, or Mr. 0 'Leary~ I could do all those things, but I know the exact position at Thursday Island; no hon. member knows more about it than I do.

"il[r. Wanstall: You have not said much about it.

JIIr. S::)UTH: I may not have said much about it here but I have done a good deal of hard work in connection with it in other places. I referred to the matter as far back as 1944 and 1943 and when I did the Min­ister for thr Army sent a man to this House

to interrogate me. A censor came to see me. I raised the matter long before the hon. member ever came into Parliament. I knew what was going on at Thursday Island. I knew that the military snobs were thieving the stuff. These snobs, thieves and racketeers were thieving on a wholesale scale when they were supposd to be fighting the Japan­ese. They were sending shiploads of stuff down south to their homes, including furni­ture and wedding presents belonging to resi­dents of Thursday Islands who had been evacuated. Read 'Hansard'' and see what I said. It was the military authorities who were the racketeers, the garrotters and the thieves. They took advantage of the situa­tion when the military authorities took over Thursday Island. They were supposed to be sent to fight the Japs., whereas they were merely on Thursday Island thieving the pro­perty of residents who had been evacuated.

I exposed these things and I informed the Federal member for Kennedy about them. We tried to go up there but the military authorities kept us out. They pulled us off in Cairns and put all sorts of obstacles in our way. They said that we would have to be innoculated against all sorts of diseases before we could go to Thursday Island. They kept us out. When I brought these matters up and exposed them, military men were sent to Parliament House to interrogate me. They asked me where I got my information from. I know this thing has been going on for many years. I know, too, the racket in grog that has been going on there. I brought the matter before the Minister, who subsequently made a personal visit to Thursday Island and took action to see that these things were rectified. The Minister sent police there. Now he has sent Mr. 0 'Leary, the Director of Native Affairs, to Thursday Island, and centralised the administration there in an endeavour to clear the matter up.

The whole position at Thursday Isla.nd can be attributed to the period when Thursday Island was isolated during the war.

:\Ir. W:mstall: Do you say it is satisfactory now~

}Ir. SIIHTH: I know it is not satisfac­tory, and I am not suggesting that it is satisfactory. If the hon. member for Toowong cares to go to Thursday Island by John Burke 's steamer or by plane, the Minister, I am sure, will give him an open go to try to clear up this matter. He will find that much of this trouble originates with the merchants, ·who are sending grog there under the guise of clothing. What would the hon. member for Toowong say in this Committee if cases consigned in Townsville and Cairns by merchants to Thursday Island as sundries were on the instructions of the Minister opened by the police, to see whether they contained grog~ He would say that it was an interference with private property and private people.

Thir. W ANSTALL: Mr. Hilton, I rise to a point of order. That is a reflection on me and I ask that it be withdrawn. I would take

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1123

no other action but action to stop that racketeering. That is why I brought this matter up.

The TEJIPORARY CHAimiAN (Mr. Hilton): I must ask the hon. member for Carpentaria to accept the assurance of the hon. member for Toowong.

lUr. 8::\HTU: We should not accept state­ments of the kind made by the hon. member, who got up and castigated the Minister and his officers and practically accused them of being in collusion on these matters.

The TEJIPORARY CHAIR~IAN: The hon. member must accept the denial of the hon. member.

Jlfr. S~II'rH: I do not feel inclined to accept it. I do not care whether I get myself into trouble or not, the hon. member for Toowong got up here and castigated the Minister and his work and practically said there was collusion in the state of affairs at Thursday Island.

l\Tr. WANSTALL: I did not say that the Minister was in collusion with wrongdoers. Even the Minister did not suggest that I did. I ask that the hon. member for Carpentaria withdraw a statement of that sort.

'l'he TEllfPORARY CHAIRlUAN: I ask the hon. member for Carpentaria to accept the assurance given by the hon. member for Toowong, who has explained his remarks regarding the Minister. I ask the hon. member to co-operate with the Chair by accepting the assurance given.

.liir. SlriTH: I should like to co-operate with the Chair, but with the permission of the Chair I should like to make a further explana­tion before I accept the statement of the hon. member for Toowong.

Opposition l\Iembers: Withdraw!

'!'lw 'i'E1£PORARY CHAIRl\IAN: Order! I should like the hon. member for Carpentaria to co-operate with the Chair and conform to the rules of Parliamentary practi~e. The hon. member for Toowong gave an assurance in regard to the accusntions he made in that respect, and I ask that he accept it. The Chair has a responsibility and hon. members have the responsibility of co-operating with the Chair.

2\fr. SJH'i'H: You have made the posi­tion hard for me, Mr. Hilton, but I will abide by your ruling.

I would say in answer to the hon. member for Toowong that the Minister spent a quarter of an hour or 20 minutes explaining what the Government and their officers have done to clear up the position at Thursday Island.

The hon. member for Toowong remarked ihat the thing still existed up there. That shows that the hon. member does not believe what the Minister has told him during the last 20 minutes. The Minister told him what he had done and that Mr. Cameron had made a report and that he sent the police to Thursday Island. I am trying to show you

what has been done and you say the thing is still going on today, the same as two or three years ago.

Because I saw these things I feel so strongly. You say I must withdraw it and it makes it hard when one knows the position as it is. It is all right for hon. members opposite to say, ''withdraw, withdraw,'' but I may not be one who withdraws as easily as hon. members opposite do. That may be due to my peculiar make-up. I say that I know the whole of the system in Thursday Island will take a lot of cleaning up.

Jir. Sparkes: What about the Auditor­General's report~

;\Ir. ,§JH'l'H: It is hard to come out and get a decision by a court. The Secretary for Public Works found some deficiencies in his department and because some detective was not so clear and was not so solid he was not believed and it was thrown out. The same thing may not apply to these things on Thursday Islam!. Before you tnke a case to the court it must Le a clear-cut case. I can tell you today of the people who are sending this grog up by boat to the natives through those underground channels, labelled ''Sundries'' but when you get into a court of law it is a different matter to prove it. 'fhe only way to do the thing properly is to send up administrative officers, as the Minister has done by sending ML 0 'Leary to Thursday Island. He ~will not do the job in one or two days· it will take months. Within the next twel;e months Thursday Island will be back to the position it was in before the war. Progress has been made ever since Mr . 0 'Leary went there. During my frequent visits to the North, when I travel thousands of miles, I see what goes on. I come back and make a report and write to the minister, and he takes the necessary action. If we read out the letters that we get it would cause these racketeers to go underground, and then we could not get near them.

I say in all sincerity that the whole of the trouble on the islands in the Torres Strait can be laid at the door of the military authorities who filled the natives up with grog and did everything that was inde~ent, especially to the Thursday Island natives. They racketeered with everything. Take D 'Arth, the shire clerk who has left there. He was made town major of Thursday Island. What did he doq He thieved the butchering business off his own fellow men who were chased out of Thursday Island before the Japs came.

These military racketeers did more damage to Thursday Island and to our native popula­tion than the Japanese have ever done or would ever do if they came to this country. They are the ones who did the damage. I reported on the matter in 1943. Military snobs came to Parliament and wanted to interrogate me as to where I got my informa­tion. I can produce correspondence from people of Thursday Island who wrote to me on these matters. What did the military police do to him~

1124 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. ~I orris: Whom do you call "military snobs~''

lUr. SJ}IITH: Those base wallahs. You know more about them than I do.

lUr. Sparkes: Who were they?

lUr. S~IITH: They were Australians. lUr. ]}lorris: Were they military police?

l'Ir. Si\IITH: Military police. This chap wrote me a letter giving me the position that existed on Thursday Island. What happened to him? He was subjected to the third degree and told that if he was found corresponding with me he would be sent off the Island.

He could remain on the island only if he did what the military control on the island wanted him to do. That was what was going on and that is only a little over two year3 ago.

~Ir. JUaher: It is not under military administration now.

l'lr. SJUITH: How long is it since it has not been under military administration 7

lUr. 1Uaher: Three years.

~Ir. SllUTH: No, it is not three years; it would be only about two years since mili­tary control was taken off Thursday Island.

l'Ir. lUaher: Something like AI Capone.

~Ir. Sl'UTH: I will tell the Committee another AI Capone happening. I brought this matter up in this Chamber and the man concerned is a member of the legal fraternity, and K.C. at that. What did he do to the people of Thursday Island~ He thieved from them and garrotted them off the island. His name was Adanmn or Aldel'man. He is a K.C. but he is the biggest racketeer and gangster who ever practised on the people in this Com­monwealth. The Nazis and the Russians are doing no more to the citizens of their coun­tries than Alderman did to the people of Thursday Island. The Leader of the Queens­land People's Party, the hon. member for Logan, visited Adelaide and wrote to me stating that Alderman was concerned with what I had said about him in this Chamber. He said, ''Mr. Smith, if you feel he has done wrong by the people of Thmsday Island let him know and he will rectify the wrong.'' Alderman was sorry for what he had done to the people of Thursday Island and if I could bring a case to his notice and if he could rectify it he would be happy to do so.

I could talk for hours on what has been clone to Thureday Islanders, but I will point out that when one brings a matter up it should be of some importance and not trivial items brought forward merely in an endeavour to embarrass the Minister and his officers. The Minister has told the Committee what the Government are doing. I shall be visit­ing Thursday Island shortly and will invite the hon. member to come with me.

Jllr. Wanstall: And I might go.

1Ur. S~IITH: I will invite him not only to visit Thursday Island but the misEJions on

the Peninsula. It is not so very long ago that the Bishop of Carpentaria reported on the position at Thursday Isand.

l'Ir. Maher: What has been done to correct all these things~ These are enormous defalcations and losses. What is the reaeon for them~

lUr. SJliiTH: These things occurred during the period when the Government had no chance of getting on to Thursday Island to ascertain what was going on by public servants or whoever it might have been. The military had charge. The Government are gradually working for the restoration of Thursday Island to get it back to its pre­war prosperity, as it was before the people were evacuated in 1942.

I\Ir. ~Iaher: Was there a public inquiry at the time you raised it'l

Jlir. ,Sl'HTH: At the time I raised it? The hon. member for WeE>t Moreton has not been present in the Chamber. I mentioned it in this Chamber in 1944.

JUr. Nickliu: That was about the military.

lUr. S.ilUTH: Yes. I raised it again in 1946 and again in 1947. Since then the Minister has been to see these things for himself.

lUr. Wanstall: He said he did not go there to see these things; he said he went there to open a conference.

JUr. Power: He saw them when he went there.

lUr. SJlii'l'H: Yes. He had this correspondence and he did not think for a moment that such things could be true. The people who supplied the natives with this liquor sent it up by boat. They were reputable business people of the State, and the Minister was astounded to find out the truth about the grog racketeering on Thurs­day Island. Cases of inferior wines and spirits were sent to Thursday Island on John Btuke's steamers, bewring such labels as ''Sundries'' and ''Drapery.''

Jlir. I\Iaher: Was this during military occupation~

lUr. SIIIITH: It was only 12 months ago. Recently when the '' vVandana'' was unload­ing at the wharf some boards came off one case that was being taken out of the ship and two or three bottles of liquor fell out. The man to whom the case was consigned said that it did not belong to him and he consigned it back to the merchant who had sent it. All these things cropped up because of the loss of control over the natives that occurred while the military were in occupa­tion of the Peninsula and the islands. It will take some time to regain the control that we had in pre-war clays. By reason of the military occupation of those places, certain inlets were discovered by which sly grog could be brought to the natives through the mission stations and other underground avenues. I feel, however, that the matter will be cleaned up within 12 months and that

Supply. [2 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1125

by then the Torres Strait Islanders and the white people will be enjoying once again the good conditions of pre-war days.

~Ir. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of the Opposition) (5.4 p.m.): All hon. mem­bers on this side were alarmed when they saw the Auditor-General's reference to the defalcations and shortages that occurred in the affairs of the Island Industries Board. We listened with a considerable amount of interest to the statements made by the hon. member for Toowong, and to the Minister's reply, but I feel that still more information should be forthcoming from the Minister.

The hon. member for Carpentaria has rather confused the issue by introducing what was done by the military authorities on T'hursday Island. That is not the point. What we want to know is what is being done to clear up the defalcations that are still continuing in connection with native affairs in the Torres Strait. We all admit that many things of which nobody is proud, particularly the introduction of the sly-grog trade among the natives, happened during military occupation. I am pleased to have the Minister's assurance that they have got that under control, but we should be very pleased indeed to have an assurance from th"e Minister that he and his department have under control the shortages and defalcations that have taken place there.

l1Ir. Jones: We think we have.

~Ir. NICKLIN: But the Committee is not quite clear on the matter. ·when we look at the Auditor-General's report for 1946-47 we find that we had 13 native branch stores of which natives were in charge and in which shortages exceeding £3,000 occurred.

To quote some of them-and they are to be :found on page 162 of the Auditor-General's Report :for 1946-47-

' 'Badu-£228 15s. 4d. "Boigu-£349 16s. 7 d. '' Y am-£715 15s 4d. ''

Those defalcations are reported in that report under the heading, ''The ·:following cases of de:falca tions, deficiencies and irregu­laries. . . . were reported during 1946-47.'' Against those shortages in cash there is the statement to the ,effect that the matter is under investigation.

When we turn to the current report of the Auditor-General we find that there are 14 branch stores and off-hand the total looks greater than the amount quoted in the pre­vious year. The deficiencies are recorded under the same heading. I am now infoTined by the hon. member for West Moreton that the total is approximately £3,500. Are these two separ­ate amounts, although the Auditor-General said in his last report that they were dis­covered during 1947-48 ~ The 1946-4 7 short­ages nmount to over £3,000, but whilst they are under investigation we have another £3,500 going west in the same stores up there. What is being done about the matter9 We can­not, in 1947, blame the war. It might have been the aftermath o:f the war but these defalca­tions were reported 12 months bdore by the Auditor-General. The Minister said that they

were investigated by his officers and that the Police Department sent up special officers, but while the investigations we,re going on another sum of £3,500 goes west in the same store. That points to irregularities or loose­nes-s somewhere or these things could not happc.n.

What the Committee wants to know is: are the same officers in charge up there~ If they are, what are they doingW Why are these defalcations continuing W T·hat is the point the MiniS<ter did not clear up. I am not blaming him personally. He must accept responsibility because these things are occur­ing in his department. We want something more than mere investigation because the investigation going on at the present time does not stop the shortages. Allegedly inves­tigations are being made but the shortages continue to grow. I should like to hear :from the Minister exactly what is being done by his department to deal with this very serious condition of affairs.

~Ir. Jones: You must have been out of the Chamber when I spoke a minute or so ago.

Jir. NICKLIN: I heard every word the Minister said; I listened carefully, but beyond saying there was an investigation going on he did not give us an indication whether there had been a change in adminis· tration--

}fr. Joues: I did so.

~Jr. NICKLIN: Or whether any of the officers had been changed.

:\Ir •• Tones: I told the Committee that a new manager had been appointed, and that a new accountant was taking over.

lUr. NICKLIN: When were the appoint­ments made~

I\Ir. Jones: Approximately two or three weeks ago. I mentioned that in my speech.

JUr. NICKI,IN: I am sorry, but I must have missed that point. I am glad that some action is being taken by the Minister. It is a bit belated. These things have been going on :for two years, and the staff have only just been changed. However, I hope that as a result of this action and the change in administration, things will be got under con­trol, and that these large sums will not con· tinue to disapper. It is to be hoped that the matter will now be properly tidied np.

However, I should like an assurance :from the Minister that as a result of the arrange­ment that has been made to deal with the matter he and his department are satisfied that they have their fingers on thP loose spots, that they will be able to tighten up every· thing, and that in the future the Auditor· General will not have to report a shortage in cash and stock that has occurred over the past two years.

lUr. MAHER (West Moreton) (5.12 p.m.): There is no doubt that the hon. member for Toowong has opened up a very serious posi­tion of affairs today when he asks :for infor­mation about a report by Mr. Cameron, a

1126 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Sttpply.

retired stipendiary magistrate, into the con­ditions of the Torres Strait Islands. There is evidence of a great deal of laxity in the administration of the Department of Health and Home Affairs in this matter, which is quite clear from just a brief perusal of the Auditor-General's reports for successive years under the heading of ''Defalcations, deficiencies and irregularities.'' In his report for the year 1944-45, there is reference to a sum of £4,327 not accounted for by the Islands Industries Board, which is said to be a shortage in cash and stock at 16 branch stores. That is a very large sum of money, and the Auditor-General says in his report, ''This matter is under investigation.'' In the same report the Auditor-General draws our attention to the fact that there was also a shortage in connection with the Protector of Islanders and Aboriginals for Thursday Island of Boigun Island, Darnley Island, and Mabuiag Island, running into a certain sum of money, an amount small by comparison with the deficiency in the affairs of the Island Industries Board. Even as far back as 1945 there was this deficiency of £4,327 in the Island Industries Board, and the Auditor-General said, ''The matter is under investigation." We come now to the Auditor­General's report for the following year, 1945-46, and here the Auditor-General draws the attention of Parliament to further short­ages and further irregularities in connection with the Island Industries Board, at Thurs­day Island. For instance, he says that at Coconut Island there is a shortage of £120, at Cowal Creek store £194, at Mabuiag £142, and at Mmray Island £163. Reference is made to smaller amounts in connection with a number of other islands, and these are stated to be shortages in cash and stock, and that the matter is under consicleration. That seems to be the stereotyped answer at the time, that these deficiencies are under investigation.

It will be seen that in 1945-46 losses aggregated between £700 and £800. Then in the Auclitor-General 's report for 1946-47, 'Ye fincl this substantial loss, approximating £3,000, alrearly referred to by the I~eader of the Opposition, and here again the Auditor­General says in almost every case, ''Matter under investigation.'' Then we come to the most recent report of the Auditor-General, in which he refers to a loss aggregating about £3,500.

An earlier report indicated that a bottle of pearls belonging to a native had been stolen and that Consolidated Revenue had to be drawn on to the extent of £300 to appease the native. Evidently someone in authority had robbed the native of a bottle of pearls.

JUr. Wanstall: They were alleged to have been given to the captain of a lugger.

j\Ir. JUAHER: There appears to have been a sorry state of affairs existing on the Torres Strait Islands for several years but each time Parliament is told by the Auditor­General that the deficiencies and irregularities are under investigation. No information has ever been given to Parliament as to the out­come of those investigations, which run back

to 1944-45. It is only now that the Minister has informed us that he has taken aetion to terminate the services of officers of the Island Industries Board and others who apparently had something to do with this particularly unsatisfactory state of affairs existing in the Torres Strait Islands. What I want to know, what Parliament wants to know, and what the people want to know, is: Why the laxity on the part of the Department of Health and Home Affairs administration in bringing these people to justice who were responsible over those successive years~ It is all right for the Minister to say that within the last few weeks he has made changes-I do not know whether they are big or not-in the administrative staff in the Islands in order to try to clean up this unsavoury business, but what has been done in the last three or four years~ Why has the position been allowed to deteriorate so long~ Why has the Auditor­General been obliged to refer in his report to Parliament each year to defalcations and shortages of sums of money running into thousancls of pounds each yead That is what we want to know. It is a serious state ot affairs indeed and one in which the Minister should go to some pains to give Parliament all the information he has in his possession and to make available the reports by Mr. Cameron and any other report that might be in his possession from the Commissioner of Police. He should table them so that we can determine on the evidence available whether it is the duty of the Opposition to move for a publie inquiry into the state of affairs in the Torres Strait Islands today.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (5.18 p.m.) : I feel it rather difficult to believe that had some hon. members been present in the Chamber when I made my statement that it would be necessary for me to make this additional statement.

JUr. ::Uaher: I have been here all the time.

JUr. JONES: The hon. member finished up by asking what were we doing to bring these people to justice. I went to quite a lot of trouble while I was on my feet in trying to explain to the Committee exactly what we had done by sending up special police and special investigators and getting them to make reports. These were submitted to the Solicitor-General in order to see what action should be taken. If the hon. member for West Moreton can suggest what other action I might take I am willing to listen to him.

I want to inform him and other hon. mem­bers that I have given serious attention to this matter. I have had conferences with the Commissioner of Police and detectives and I have suggested to them the difficulties that would confront them at Thursday Island in their inquiries. When I was in the Torres Straits last year I had an interview with the Bishop of Thursday Island, the Rev. Mr. Davis, and the local priest, Father Donohue, men with knowledge of all the difficulties at Thursday Island. It is easy for hon. members to sit in this Chamber and talk of Thursday Island as if it were some place running under

Supply. [2 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1127

normal conditions. When I was there a very bad state of affairs existed. The Leader of the Opposition and his deputy leader mentioned thirteen branches and sixteen branches respectively of the Island Industries Board but the important point, as I stressed whe~ speaking previously, is that each of these brunches is in charge of a native islander.

. I said this too when I was on my feet pre­V10usly: before the war we had white people o? ,n;ost of the islands who took some respon­sibility. ~oday w~ canno.t get white people. We have difficulty m gettmg a white staff to go t~ Thursday Island at all. Many officers appomted to Thursday Island remain but a few weeks and then go away. It is very difficult to staff t~os? places. I agree that the best way to ehmmate these defalcations would be, if possible, to have more white staff. ?'hat is what we want; I am prepared to admit that. When you have natives hand­ling a consignment of food from Thursday Island, it is a different matter. As the hon. member for Oxley rightly interjected when I ~as speaking, no audit took place there dunng the war years. That is quite true.

The hon. member for West Moreton said this has been going on for three or four years. I admit that it has. I cannot say how long; it may be more. I think it occurred from the very moment the Japs came into the war-when the people started to evacuate the northern part of Australia and the mili­tary took control. The military themselves were on many of these islands. I know that food suppl~es went off, including many of our food supplies that were stored on the island. Nobody knows what happened to them. The natives have little administrative ability· the food arrives and they are not much 'con­cerned with whether they make an exchange of this for that. There was no control actu­ally during the war years in that area. That is important.

A pertinent point was raised by the Leader of the Opposition when he asked what we were doing to clean this matter up.

Thir. Nicldin: To stop the leak.

lUr. JONES: I though I had made that plain. I said that the Protector of Islanders on Thursdav Island till a matter of three or four moi1ths ago is now off the island; he left Thursday Island after the appoint­ment of Mr. 0 'Leary to that centre. We called applications all over Australia for a manager of the Island Industries Board; and the Director of Native Affairs up there inter­viewed a dozen or more men to try to get a suitable man of administrative ability to con­trol it. Hon. members should know' that the Island Industries Board is not under the Pub­lic Service; it is working under a Government charter and it controls its own affairs.

Thir. Wanstall: The Protector of Islanders is a member of it, or was.

1Ur. JONES: He was a member of the . Island Industries Board.

Thir. Wanstall: What about Wailer? He was a public servant.

Mr. JONES: No. The members of the Island Industries Board are appointed by the Government without reference to the Public Service Commissioner at all.

;jlr. Wanstall: The Protector of Islanders is a Government servant.

Thlr. JONES: Yes, by virtue of his position. He is also a member of the board. Now there will be no protector. He will be replaced by the Director of Native Affairs, who will be on Thursday Island and who will be a member of the board. In addition to a manager, we appointed another account­ant. We have a complete new set-up so far as the principal officers are concerned. The Director of Native Affairs will be on the board. We have a new manager and a new accountant; and in addition we are appoint­ing a number of other offiers to enable us to give stricter attention to the matters that have been disclosed as a result of the investi­gations. The Torres Strait islands repre­sent a fairly big and important centre. There are 12 islands with a population of roughly 5,000 people, and these people have to be fed; supplies have to be taken from Thursday Island. Unless you have an efficient person in charge of each branch store this trouble is likely to happen.

I say quite seriously, and I do not think there is any doubt about it, that these things occurred during the war years. Unless hon. members have very short memories they must recall that certain people were prosecuted for taking stuff from Thursday Island, such as radio sets and all sorts of things. On my visit I spoke to private citizens wh<:> were very indignant to find on their return to the Island their refrigerators and their wireless sets and perhaps fmniture had been taken in many instances by members of the military forces and put in the~r barracks, and that kind of thing. That is how the people of Thursday Isalnd found conditions on their return to the island. One must get a true picture of the conditions to appreciate what is happening.

I know defalcations such as are disclosed in the Auditor-General's report are a very serious matter, and I knew it would be raised by hon. members. Members of the Opposition would be lacking in keenness if they did not bring it up. I expected that they would, and it is only right that they should expect some sort of investigation. Nevertheless, hon. members must visualise the position as it is.

So far as I am personally concerned, I have taken every step to clean up the matter. That is point No. 1. Point No. 2 is that we have a completely new set-up in charge of the Island Industries Board on Thursday Island, consequently there will be no recurrence. I think that is all we can do. Point No. 3 is where defalcations have been found, the papers have been submitted to the Crown Law Office for advice as to whether legal action can be taken.

Thir. ilfacdonalcl: You say there is a population of 5,000 on the islands.

lUr. JONES: Yes.

1128 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

~Ir. Macdonald: The amount of defalcations would amount to 10s. a head.

Mr. JONES: That is possible. I know the seriousness of it, but one cannot get away from this fact: 12 or 15 men are in charge of the stores. The stores are taken over in a boat. lt must not be forgotten that in the war years we had no organised transport to the islands, but had to rely on anything at all to get food through to these people. At times we weTe lucky to get it to them at all. It was the most simple thing in the world for the food to go astray, no invoices and that sort of thing.

:;}lr. Wanstall: But in this financial year another £3,000 worth have gone off.

lUr •• TONE'S: It cannot all be foodstuffs that went off. I was really referring to foodstuffs, to give hon. members a picture. The people would be using clothing and items of furniture, if they could get them. During the war years there would not be much of that sort of thing, and then there was very little control. On my visit I got informa­tion from the sergeant of police and leaders of the churches who had been there for a considerable time and who had the confidence of the natives. I got some very useful information, but the most they could do was to give me very vague information.

lUr. :;}Iaedonaltl: From what you say none of these natives are fit to be given a position of trust.

lUr •• TONES: I am not saying that, and I would not say that. As a matter of fact, some of the young natives who are growing up and who attended the secondary school on Badu Island are very well educated and could hold a position almost anywhere. But these young well-educated people were doing some useful service during the war, and the islands were virtually depleted of man power. 'l'here was scarcely a man on the island, other than the old men. Those who were not in the services were used in some category, perhaps working on Thursday Island for the forces. All the men were occupied. When the war finished a tremendous job devolved on the Government to try to rehabilitate the islanders. I think we have done a very good job in the Torres Strait islands when one considers that we have been ahle to train some scores of them in dress-diving with special equipment from England. Most of the pearling luggers in the Tones Strait are now manned by natives of these islands.

Some of the private pearlers were anxious to get Jap divers into the industry again and made application to the State Government some time ago, but we refused to have any­thing to do with it.

The rehabilitation of these people was a big job and in order to get a fair picture of what was happening up there one would have to visit the island and see at first-hand the way in which the people live. I have no doubt that these things became possible because there was no control on either Thursday Island or any of the Torres Strait islands. The Island Industries Board was virtually defunct during the war. The

authorities would not allow public servants to go there. One of the most prominent public servants in Queensland landed on Thursday Island and he was told to get back on the plane and return.

Mr. liiaher: There was £3,500 unaccounted for last year.

liir. JONES: No, that has been brought forward from the previous year.

liir. Nicklin: What is the grand total of the shortages~

Mr. JONES: Roughly £3,500.

;)fr. lUaher: It is from £12,000 to £14,000.

1ilr. JONES: Successive reports refer to the defalcations, but they do not say that it is a fresh amount each year.

::llr. lUaher: Will you check up on that for ns g

Mr. JONES: Yes, but I do not think it is a fresh defalcation each year.

.li'Ir. H. B. Taylor: The Auditor-General's Report suggests that it is a fresh amount each year.

lUr. Wan stall: It is not carried forward each year because this year the Auditor­General has a special section dealing with the previous year's defalcations.

Mr. JONES: I have given the Committee all the information I have on the matter. I know that the shortage is serious and I do not see what else I can do. I was just as anxious as anyone else to probe the matter and bring the offenders to book, but the police were unable to sheet it home to any particular person. Mr. Cameron 's report does not disclose anything that will enable us to prosecute, according to the Solicitor-General.

Mr. Wanstall: When did you get the Solicitor-General's opinion~

liir. JONES: Some time ago.

Mr. Wanstall: You have had plenty of time to table it since then.

lUr. JONES: There is no obligation to tender it at any particular time. Had I been asked I probably should have tendered it.

Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (5.34 p.m.) : I am sure we all appreciate the Minister's difficulty under the circumstances, but there are certain features that warrant the close investigation of this Committee. I realise that these islands are far from Brisbane and it is not possible to visit them every week to give them the required supervision, but after hearing the Minister's explanation I suggest that much better supervision than we have had in the past is warranted. I know it is difficult to induce white people to take positions in such localities, but it should be possible to get white supervision if we are prepared to pay for it. Perhaps it is false economy to appoint coloured people to such responsible positions as supervisors when so much money has been lost.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1129

Perhaps another regrettable feature of the whole case is that the deficiencies continue. The Leader of the Opposition and his deputy referred to the fact that this has been going on for a number of years. I did not under­stand what the Minister said about the Auditor-General's report. I gathered we lost £3,400 last year. That is bad enough, but perhaps it could have been obviated by the appointment of more responsible officers to take charge.

I am afraid, however, that there is a more serious aspect than that, and I refer to the demoralising influence on these people. There is no doubt that the defalcations are made up by petty pilfering, because if you let one get away with it another adopts the same practice and it then becomes the general practice. The hon. member for Stanley said that it looked like a loss of 10s. a head of the popu­lation. It is reasonable to assume that 80 per cent. of the people would not be respon­sible for any part of the loss, and on examining the position closely you have to face up to the fact that 10 or 20 per cent. might make it a regular practice of getting away with stuff. The methods of control must be loose. There is a weakness some­where. Be that as it may, I think sufficient has been said today to warrant a close investi­gation by the Minister and his officers. I repeat that it is not easy to deal with some­thing on a mission station far removed from Brisbane.

I am concerned about the Government's methods of dealing with aboriginals on mission stations. I was amazed to see that the appropriation this year is roughly £30,000 more than was provided for in 1947-48. Last year we appropriated £172,000 and expended £183,000, but this year we estimate our requirements at £203,338. That is big money, and we must not lose sight of the fact that aboriginals are human beings and that we are not back in the primitive days. When I was a boy I remember the time when the aboriginal was regarded as a primitive man and unfit to take care of himself. He was useless in many ways-I realise of course that some whites are useless, too-but we are getting into the third and fourth genera­tion and still treating them as primitive men and as if they were not able to do anything for themselves. We have plenty of land, as the ex-Secretary for Health and Home Affairs said not so long ago when he pointed out \Yhat was being done on vVoorabinda. Most of the people are healthy, and I take it from the medical attention thev receive theY are kept in a good state of health. Are we encouraging these people to hang round mission stations and live on what the Govern­ment are willing to give them~ Perhaps most of them are able to do more for themselves. I appreciate the fact that many are going onto agricultural properties and farms, and some are doing well. But when you get people-black, white, or brindle-on a mission station and lead thpm to believe that they can live by doing little or no work, you are demoralising them and not placing the desire within them to become self-supporting. I

have had quarter-castes and half-castes in my electorate speak to me in this connection. I know that some have not been a success.

I know that some of them have attended State schools and have had a reasonably good edneation. Their ldddies associate with white children who have also attended State schools and I think they can become useful citizens. In a place like Beaudesert, where they are in the second, third, and fourth generations, they still live in blacks' camps as they did thirty, forty and fifty years ago. Is that a reflection on the coloured people themselves or is it a reflection on this Parlia­ment~ It is time that these people got above the old bush-camp idea of living under the conditions under which they liYed many years ago. It is creating an inferiority complex amongst them whereas we should be trying to uplift them, to encourage them to do something for themselves.

Some of the more educated ones, who have had a reasonably good State-school educa­tion, have spoken to me on the matter and have told me that they are willing to do better for themselves if they are given the opportunity. We are not really short of land in the country. We were able to make a big piece of country available in the Emerald district, more or less for experi­mental purposes-although I hope that it will be more than an experiment. The former Secretary for Health and Home Affairs told us that there was plenty of land at \Voora­binda and that we had plenty of people and so we should give them the opportunity to do something for themselves, but while we feed them and encourage them to hang round mission places and loaf and live on Govern­ment charity that ffituation will go on for all time.

A reference to the vote discloses that more and more is required to keep these people, and that at a time when the country demands their labour. A good many of them would be willing to help themselves and they should be encouraged to do so. My point is: is it because of any weakness on the part of Parliament or any failure to provide them with the necessary equipment that they are unable to do so or is it because they are inferior to the white man~ I am not pre­pared to believe that a big percentage of them would not do 8'0 if they were given the opportunity.

JUr. Jones: They are working. There are oYer 100 in the sugar districts this year.

Mr. ThlUI,LER: I. understand that they are not self-supportmg and they are becom­ing a bigger drain on Consolidated Revenue every year. The time has arrived for a very close investigation into the matter. Perhaps there are too many of these people at the one mission station and it may be better to divide the number of people by four and give them enough land, and they will become self­supporting. I am satisfied that they would become more than self-supporting but while we do as we do today things will not change. Of course, we must remember that the aboriginal is a native of this country

1130 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

and that we owe him something. Perhaps it is not his fault that he lived in a primitive state and is more or less simple-minded. Perhaps it was because he was without oppor­tunity for education and had not thB oppor­tunities to progress as the white people had.

It is our duty to give these people a chance but it is also our duty to protect the public purse. However, there is no reason why we should charge the whole responsibility of their upkeep to the taxpayers of Australia. The time is coming when these people should be able to do something for themselves and I think they would if they were given the opportunity. I ask hon. members to look at the vote and to see what it is costing the State to maintain these people. There is an increase at every mission station. We are asked to grant more money for the support of these people.

I do not say this with the idea of being critical. There are difficulties in the way. We are carrying on a policy that might have been all right 20 or 30 years ago, but is not necessarily right today. It requires a close examination. Members of the Opposition might be able to help in such matters as this by promulgating ideas as to how aborig­inals can be employed in pastoral and rural industries. Quite a number of them are already employed on cattle and sheep pro­perties in the North West and far West. In fact, on some of these properties they repre­sent a big proportion of the labour employed. The fact remains that we have thousands of these aboriginals hanging rouud these mission stations doing nothing in return for the money spent in maintaining them. The time has come when they should be given an oppor­tunity to do something for themselves.

Vote (Native Affairs) agreed to.

CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS AND GRANTS.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (5.47 p.m.): I move-

'' That £226,162 be granted for 'Charit­able Institutions and Grants.' '' The appropriation for 1947-48 was

£201,035, whereas the amount expended was £205,191. The estimated increase for 1948-49 on the appropriation for 1947-48 is £25,127.

The increase in the amount required for 1948-49 as compared with the amount expended for 1947-48 is due to provision of increased staff at Eventide, Sandgate, and Eventide Home at Charters Towers, conse­quent upon the introduction of the 40-hour week, and provision for increases in accord­ance with basic-wage adjustments and increases under awards. The vote for Contingencies shows a slight increase of £1,482. This is accounted for by slight increases in votes for the Blind Institution, Eventide Home at Charters Towers, inebriate institution and grants, which is offset by a decrease in the provision for Eventide, Sandgate.

lifr. DECKER (Sandgate) (5.49 p.m.): I want to take advantage of this vote to say a few words on Eventide. Sandgate. We· all

remember that this inEtitution was housed at Dnnwich for many years prior to its transfer to Sandga te. Looking up "Hansard" I find that amongst the reasons given for its trans­fer frum Dunwich to Sandgate was that it would lessen maintenance costs and it would give greater access to visitors who wished to see patients and that the accommodation was more suited than the limited accommoda­tion at Dunwich. On looking back, too, we find a remarkable increase in administrative costs. When there \Yere 754 patients in Dunwich for 1944-45, the cost of running the institution 1ms £37,749 7s., yet in 1948-49 the expenditure budgeted for was £130,334, and the actual expenditure was £121,119.

So it can be seen that although the change was made on the score of saving it has meant hundreds and thousands of pounds lost to the Government already. In my opinion, although much has been done for the inmates in order to make them comfortable, the institution is not what it should be as a home for the aged.

Looking through the Estimates I find there has been no real review as regards staff. When the institution was at Dunwich we had a pumping station and a water system to maintain and engine~ were needed for the electricity supply. At Sandgate we have electricity supplied by the Brisbane City Council and there is no pumping because the town water is supplied to the area. Yet we find that provision is made for an engineer at £544, an engine-driver at £413, another at £380, and a third at £353, and an engineer's labourer £336. The only engine they are working at "Eventide" is one boiler to maintain supply for the cookers. What is the use of having a fully-qualified engineer in receipt of an engineer's salary~ That is absolute waste-to have three engineers and an engineer's assistant to operate a boiler to provide steam for cooking. It seems to me that provides an opening for the Minister to make some investigation and see why these charges are recurring year after year and ascertain what these officers do.

From my visits I thought the engineer was the chief plumber. He was supervising the installation of drainage and other works; yet I notice that there is provision here for a leading plumber and assistant plumber. There is urgent call for some investigation. I believe that in these avenues there is oppor­tunity for cutting out extraneous men and perhaps giving the additional service that is urgently required. It is extravagant to have them remain yE'ar after year.

I notice also that there is provision for a visiting medical officer and the sum required has increased from £500 to £650. The Minister takes an interest in that institution and he knows what is going on. We have a hospital there with numerous inmates and some cases are very serious. There are over 300 beds. If we had a hospital established in any area with 250 beds we should require a resident medical officer. Apart from that, there are hundreds of old men who are in more or less indifferent health and frequently require urgent medical attention. We make provision for a temporary officer and place all the responsibility on the kindly matron.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1131

We had a Dr. Turnbull at Dunwich, but unfortunately he reached the retiring age and retired. Some time ago, when the visiting doctor was ill, the department sought the services of Dr. Turnbull, who is known to most of the patients, who think well of him. In spite of his age, he is very alert and competent, and if it is hard to obtain a full­time medical officer we could stretch a point and appoint Dr. Turnbull as full-time resident medical officer until we could get a younger man to take his place. The present visiting doctor, Dr. Sutton, is a capable young doctor.

I am not casting any aspersions on the doctor's qualifications or his care of the patients. Prior to his appointment a Sand­gate doctor attended, but the system is unsat­isfactory from every point of view. When we are charged with the care of aged people with hospital patients of over 300 1t is not fair to the institution, especially when there is available for full-time duty a doctor cap­able of doing the work but who has only an age-bar against him. It is time a full­time medical ofiicer was appointed. Ji'Ol·tun­ately the hospital has the services of a very skmed matron and nssistant matron and some splendid nursing sisters aml nurses. But for their attention the whole hospital system would fall. We find the matron in receipt of a yearly salary of only £450 but she carrie~ almost the whole responsibility of that large hospital. We are niggardly where we should be extravagant, that is, in the care of the hospital, and we are extravagant where >Ye should be niggardly.

Eventide has magnificent gnrc1ens. There is no question about that; persons passing must admire their beauty. Most people who !'lee them are under the impression that the inmates of the home are res·ponsible for the work in the gardens, but that is not so. The inmates are not allowed to encroach on the gardens. The work is clone by a paitl staff and it must be costing the department at least £60 or £70 a week to maintain t!H'm. Is it any wonder that this expenditure is cloaked under the item ''Wages, other employees, £6,550,'' whereas the expenditure on truck driver, sanitary workers, and housemaids is itemised? Hon. membel's must not think J am objecting to the beautification of the grounds there but if we maintain a beautiful exterior we can give a great deal more atten­tion to the interior.

There is a small hospital there, a legacy from the R.A.A.F. I do not suppose ono would find a nwre attractive or suitable build­ing in which to accommodate the sick, but that hospital accommodates only 50 or 60 patients of a total of 300. What accommo­dation is used for the remainder? These nrc housed in huts with l'!ingle walls, which &re anything but attractive. The sanitary con­ditions are abnormal and would not be tolerated in a shearing shed. One end of the hut is partitioned off for the bathroom and lavatory. In effect the patients are accom­modated in the same room because there are no verandas on which to provide these con­veniences. Let hon. members visiting patients do as I hatl to <lo, sit with their backs to the lavatory wall. The noise of the laYatory chain

is disturbing and the smell is nausoating. This is a very unsanitary arrangement. Au hon. member on a tour of inspection of EYen­tic1e should not stop after seeing the nice little hospital but should continue his inspec­tion and yisit these huts. They are very unsuitable for the class of patients accom · modated in them. ~Why not expend some of the money now expended on the gardens on hospital wards~

As far as I can gather, the food supplied at the Eventide institution is of good quality and well selected, but the great trouble is the way in which it is cooked. and served to the inmates. The Minister has pointed out that they do endeavour to get cooks, but with the competition there is today it is h<trd to get a really first-class chef. I a p ]Jrecia te that, but I think the main trouble lies in the salary we offer. In an ii1stitution accom­modating over 800 inmates and employing a staff of over 100, the food should be one of the main considerations of the Government. Originally the inmates paid 21s. towards their keep. When they received an increase of 5s. in their pension, the Government took v, further 3s. 6d. from them; then, when the pension was increased by another 10s. an extra 3s. was taken from them, making their total payment £1 7s. 6d. a week. The last increase in the pension has meant an addi­tional £120 a week income to the Government. I suggest that the Minister give serious con­sideration to offering higher emoluments or some other inducement to first-class chefs. We should be in a position to spend some of the extra £120 a week in the kitchen. The great complaint with all the inmates is not the quality of the food but the way in which it is supplietl from the cookhouse.

If any hon. member knows of a grievance, if he knows what the cause of a grievance is, he should say so. It should be the desire of the Government to provide better facilities in the cookhouse and better cooks, so that justice may be done to the food provided for these old people. The Minister knows \Yhat the trouble is, and we must rectify it. If the salary offered is not sufficient to induce a good chef to take a position in the institution, then we must increase the wages in order to ensure that they have a first-class chef there.

Most of the men have settled down rather well. The complaints are becoming fewer and fewer. The management is very good indeed. If we only rectify the little things that mean so much to the inmates, we can make the institution an even greater success than it is.

It is a question of paramount importance and one that we should tackle in an effort to reetify the trouble. I am sure \l"e sh;lll if we apply omselves to it.

There have been many improvements a.t the institution. At one time I complained about the women's quarters, which were barricaded off, but I am now pleased to say that with r0arrangement and much work done to the huts great benefit has resulted to the women patients. I am giving credit where credit is due.

ll32 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

As mentioned by an hon. member on the Government side, it is a pity to see on one side of the institution the women's quar­ters a.nd on the othe.r their husbands isolated in the mBn 's SBction. It is important that the Government should consider establishing married quarten; in that institution. We have in the Chermside home, which is a garden settlement, a model settlement, upon which we can base our plans to great advantage. If we could give married quarters to the mar­ried folk at Eventide it would make for content­ment and, what is more, it is something that is due to them. A husband and wifo should be able to enjoy each other's company in the latter years of their lives. I know that pro­vision has been maue for married quarters at Eventide Home, Charters Towers, but the same does not apply at Sandgate. It is a fault that requires rectification.

Much has been done to improve the nurses' quarters and great satisfaction is exprBsse<:l at the work done to improve staff quarters. A bowling green will shortly be opene<:l but I want to know who is going to use it. The idea should be that this bowling green, whicl1 has been put thew at great ·e'Xpense, should be preserved for the use of the staJf an<J. the. inmates of the institution. Many of the inmates are nat·urally thinking that they will be able to wa.tch the games played on this green by outsiders but I am hoping that it will be for the use of those at 1111e institution.

I wish to impress the points I have made in this dB bate, namely, firstly, that the Govern­ment take immediate ste.ps for the appoint­ment of a full-time medical officer; secondly, that th~J Governme11t check up to see that we are not wasting money in excess engineering staff; thirdly, that we improve the food supply by attc-nding to the needs of the cook­house, particularly in the provision of a chef. I should like to mention a fourth point that the Government try to beautify the inside of the home on the lines of the gardens outside it. They could create verandas to the exist­ing 1mts so that the inmates could have com­fort in wet and windy weather outside the confines of their rooms. There is no place for them to go in wet and boisterous weather except into the bedroom huts and !Speni!. the time on the beds. I think the inmates are entitled to this provision. And a few chil:i1::> scattNed round the place would be an acqmsl­tion. If the institution is moved to some other district these items of equipm\ent will come in handy and will not be wasted.

lUr. JUACDONALD (Stanley) (7.24 p.m.): T·here a11e one or two points in connection with this vote concerning which I should likJe to ask the Minister a few questions.

I can well remember the indignation that arose when it was decided to establish the inebriat·es' institution at Marburg.

A deputation waited on the then Attorney­General and we were led to believe that it was only a temporary anangement. At that time there were only three inmates in the home. The ~residents of Marburg feel that it is not a great advertisement for that town that the first thing that interstate visitors

should see on entering it is the inebriate home and they very rightly and justly take exception to having such an institution foisted on them. We were led to believe that it would be only a temporary institution and I should like some assurance from the Minis­ter as to its future.

I should like him to tell us also how many inmates are there at present and how many have been discharged. It seems to be a very costly institution to manage, if the number of inmates there today have any relationship to the number there at the inception of the institution. The Auditor-General points out on page 94 of his report that the expendi­ture on the institution was £3,232 3s. 3d. and I was wondering whether that included the pmchase price of the property. There is an appropriation this year of £2,190 and it seems to me that the cost per head is going to be exceedingly high if there are not many inmates at that institution. As I pass the place on my way home each week to 1ny electorate, I notice some people in the grounds digging the soil and growing vegetables and I wonder whether there is any sale for them. I should like to know from the Minister exactly where the inmates came from and whether they have been there any length of time or whether they are only birds of passage.

Hon. A. ,TONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (7.27 p.m.): I propose to reply to some of the matters raised by the hon. member for Sandgate and particularly his rema'rk in relation to the engineer and the staff under him at Eventide, Sandgate. If he had taken the trouble to look up the regulations under the Charitable Institutions Management Act of 1885 relating to the general management of Eventide Sandgato he would have seen the following under the heading of ''Engineer''-

''ENGINEER.

''Subject to the manager, the engineer shall have supervision and control of the steam, electrical, mechanical, sewerage and drainage installations at 'Eventide' and shall be responsible for their maintenance in good working order.

"Subject to the manager, he shall be responsible through the overseer for the good order and maintenance of buildings, roads and pathways, gardens, lawns, and grounds within 'Eventide.'

"Subject to the manager, he shall have the direction and supervision of engineers, overseer, engine d~i vers, carpenters plumbers, electrician, head gardene'r; gardeners and ground staff including inmate workers.

''He 11hall be responsible for seeing that the duties of the staff placed uniler his direction and supervision are efficiently executed.

''He shall prepare a daily report to be submitted to the manager each morning.''

It will be seen that in addition to his work as engineer he has quite a responsible position.

Supply. (2 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1133

The hon. member referred also to the improvement in the gardens at Eventide and I think that is recognised by everybody and n?·On~ would suggest that money spent in this directiOn ha~ not been wisely spent. Aftm all, the cnvuonment of a home is a very important thing. It should be made as bright as possible. I doubt whether we have better gardens in any other part of Brisbane T'hey have been commented on by everybody:

Mr. Pie: They are a credit to the staff.

l\Ir. JONES: That is so.

Improvement in the cooking of food is a matter that we have given consideration for ~~m!_c~~~~de~a~le ,tim~, not only in relation "u nvenLrue ouo arso 1n respect of many of our other institutions.

The hon. member said there is a difficultv toda! in getting first-class cooks. Most hotcis ~re m a similar position. \Ve certainlv are m that position in our institutions. \V e~ have taken up with the Public Service Commissioner ~he 3;ppointment of a supervising cook, whose JOb It would be to visit the various institu­tion~ and a~1vise cooks and others on the fe~dmg of . mmates-the diet, the way in ~lnch t~~ food should be cooked to retain Its ~utnt_Ive value, and so on. We are experi­encmg difficulty in obtaining good cooks not only at Eventide, Sandgatc but at manv of our other institution&. \V: may be able to get so~ewhere if we manage to appoint a supervisor.

The hon. m;;mber for Sandgate said that the food suJ?phed to the institution is good, average-quahty food. No-one would raise an objection to it. I visit the Eventide Home in my own electorate at Charters Towers. Q~ite often I have had a meal with the inmates. The meal served there woulil be equal to those served in an ordinary second-class hotel. In fact, many such hotels would not ~crve a meal such as I have had at that institu­tion. That applies to quite a number of our homes. _Of course, the important factor is t~e coo~mg. You can supply all the ingre­dients m the world for a meal but if it is not cooked properly they are of no avail. I know that in my shearing days we often had a cook who was provided with the very best of foodstuffs, yet could not make much of it, while on the other hand we occasionally struck a very good cook. That applies to many of our institutione.

Another matter referred to by the hon. member for Sanclgate was the provision of married quarters.

::\Ir. Pie: That is very important.

l\[r •• TONES: I quite appreciate that. As a matter of fact, I read an article in an Arr.terican magazine on this very subject. The wnter had been with the American forces in Australia during the war period and he made reference to what was clone at Eventide at Charters Towers. I do not know how many hon. members have visited Eventide at Charters Towers. It is S<et in beautiful grounds and there are quite a number of double huts for married couples. Not so very

long ago an old couple over 70 years of age living in the institution married, and we were able to provide a hut for them.

We have been following that principle in all such institutions, and in the new home that will be opened in Rockhampton next year provision will be made for a number of married couples' huts. The same will apply at Charleville, and, I think, at Mareeba. In fact, it will apply in whatever centre we build such inetitutions. The Government took over Eventide, Sandgate, from the R.A.A.F. The buildings are more or less of a temporary nature and I quite appreciate the desirability of providing married quarters. We certainly have that in mind. ·

We have gone to some trouble at Eventide to make provision for the nurses. I admit that when we transferred Eventide from Dunwich the accommodation provided for nurses was very crude. That is one of the matters we corrected very quickly. I think that the hon. member for Sandgate will agrt>e that thP accommodation provided for nurses at Eventide, Sanclgate, is very good. _\s a matter of fact, the numes themselves have expressed to me their satisfaction with the arrangements made for their accommodation.

There was reference to the bowling green · that is being put clown and is expected to be opened early next year. It is not intended that the bowling green shall be available for anybody other than the old men living in the home. We believe this sort of thing is desirable. There are a number of these old men who have played the game of bowls in their lifetime and are still quite anxious to take it up again. There is no doubt that when the bowls are made available to the institution, as they will be, many of the old fellows will take it up too. We have received quite a lot of support from different sporting bodies round the city in this matter. Tattersall 's Club made a donation of quite a number of sandshoes to be made available to the old chaps who desire to play bowls. It is a game you can get quite a lot out of. I play a1 bit myself. As someone said to me, ''You do not play bowls" and I said, "Yes, I do." He said, ''I do not think any man should play bowls till he is 84." I said, "Why~" He said, ''I know a man of 42 who plays and he is only half mad." (Laughter.)

This is a move in the right direction. It is an experiment. It is expected that a bowling green will be put clown at the hospital at W acol for the use of returned soldiers. I do not think the money is being wasted in thst matter. The Queensland Bowling Associa­tion has already indicated that it will take a keen interest in that green when it is opened, and its officers are willing to come along and help the old fellows and give them advice. In fact, they have done that in the laying down of the green; their officials have been made available and they did everything they possibly could.

The hon. member for Stanley made reference to the inebriates' home at Marburg. The Government have been urged for some

1134 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

considerable time, mainly by church authori· ties and others interested in people they thought there was a chance of breaking away from drinking habits, to establish such a home, and it was decided that the building at Marburg, which was used for other pur­poses during the war, should be made avail­able for that purpose. I understand it is the only home of its kind in Australia. No other State has an inebriates' home made available by the State. It is, to some extent, an experiment.

.!fir. l\Iacdonald: Do you think the breweries should make them available~

lUr. JONES: There may be something in that, too. There is an obligation, I think, on the Government to do something, because on many occasions prior to the establishment of this home magistrates often said in court, when dealing with men who were addicted to drink, that instead of sending these men to gaol they would prefer to send them to some other place where they could do a bit of work and would receive good treatment. They receive treatment there to try to break them off the drinking habit. I believe that, generally speaking, it has been a fairly reasonable success. I do not suggest for one moment that everybody who goes there becomes a total abstainer when he comes out. As a matter of fact, the practice we have adopted is that after a man has been six months there and it is thought desirable to let him out, he is let out and if he eventually comes before the court again, we do not take him back. All these people who go to Marburg are not sent there by courts. Some go there voluntarily, and in other instances a member of the family ask whether we will take a brother or some other relative to Marburg. We have done that in many instances.

::'<Ir. HHey: Do you charge in those cases?

1\fr. ,JONE,S: No. I believe it serves a very useful purpose. One gentleman in the city who takes a very keen interest in the institution is the Rev. Mr. Trudgian.

He has discussed this place with me on many occasions. He talks to the patients, and what is more, he takes a very keen interest in them after they come out. That applies to the members of a number of other churches. They know the people who have been there, and when they come out keep an eye on them to keep them, if possible, on the straight and narrow path.

:iUr. Pie: How many inmates can you take?

Mr. JONES: Not more than about 40 usually. I think there are about 30 there at the present time. I think there were 13 there when I visited the place about 12 months ago.

The hon. member for Stanley inquired as to what was done with the vegetables grown at that institution. These people produce a considerable quantity of vegetables, and the hon. member might have noticed there is there also a fair-sized poultry farm. A large percentage of the vegetables are sent to other institutions, such as Eventide or perhaps the mental hospital at Goodna, or any other Gov­€rnment institution. At times it becomes

necessary to kill off some of the older fowls, a.nd these too are sent to hospitals. We can use everything that is produced at the home. As a matter of fact, from that angle quite a good job has been done. We have found that many of these men, after being there for a couple of weeks and beginning to improve, are very good workers and are pre­pared to do something and not just hang about the place all the time.

JUr. lUac<lonald: It costs £6 a week each to keep them there .

llir. JONES: I have not worked out what it actually costs to keep each inmate, but taking into consideration the treatment of patients in the public hospitals it will be found to be a considerable amount. There is no objection to that. I think that if a man has become a drink addict and there is any possibility of retrieving him, even if it costs £6 a week it is a job well done.

I should be the last to suggest that this particular institution be closed. It is doing a very good job. I know the hon. member has had representations made to him, object­ing to the establishment of this class of home at Marburg. Marburg is a very good little town and there may be some slight reaction in that connection, but it is more or less a temporary expedient. In these times it is difficult to pick up a suitable building for this class of institution. That was an ideal building for the class of patient.

Jir. Sparkes: It has a very good appearance from the road.

l'\Ir. ,JONES: It is a good building. I do not think any great objection could be taken to the work at Marburg. It is a job well worth doing. We keep statistics that will give us an indication, probably in another 12 months, as to the success of that particular institution. It takes time to see whether a number of these men who have been there go back on to "booze." Some do, but I think the experiment is well worth while.

Vote (Charitable Institutions and Grants) agreed to.

MATERNAL AND CHILD WELFARE.

Hon. A. .TONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (7.44 p.m.): I move-

" That £101,27 4 be granted for 'Mater-nal and Child Welfare.' ''

It will be noted that the appropriation for 1947-48 was £87,700, and the amount expellded, £85,598. The amount required for 1948-49 is: salaries, £58,411; contingencies, £42,863.

Provision has been made for additional expenditure consequent upon the opening of new centres and sub-centres, thirteen of which have been approved for this :finacial year. Increased costs of drugs and commodities have also attributed to the greater sum required.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1135

The welfare home at Toowoomba is now in full working order and increased staff and admissions are responsible for increased provision necessary for this financial year.

Vote (Maternal and Child Welfare) agreed to.

HOSPITALS.

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (7.46 p.m.): I move-

'' That £1,693,363 be granted for 'Hospitals.' ''

The appropriation for 1947-48 was £1,259,960. The amount expended during that year was £1,398,208, and the amount required for 1948-49 is £1,693,363. The main reasons for increased costs are-

( a) Improvements in award conditions for nurses and other staff, particularly reduced hours from 44 to 40 for all employees as from 1 January, 1948.

(b) Increased basic wage for all employees. (c) Gradual improvement in availability of

supplies of instruments, bedding and linen, etc.

(d) Many painting and repair works still to be undertaken which have been delayed over the war years.

(e) Greater use of hospital facilities by out-patients.

(f) Increased maintenance costs generally as a result of wage and freight increases.

(g) Staff numbers increased to meet extra demands on the hospital's service.

Included in grants for the current year is an amount of £20,000 for the Red Cross Blood Transfusion Service, which was not previously payable.

liir. PIE (Windsor) (7.48 p.m.): I wish to impress upon hon. members the small part played by the Commonwealth Government in providing hospital benefits in this State. The Queensland people, not the Common­wealth Government, are paying for those hospital benefits. Although the Commonwealth pays Ss. a day a patient, that is only a very small part of the total amount spent on hospitals in Queensland. Of a total expendi­ture of £3,634,000 in the State, the Common­wealth contributes only £860,000. I wish to emphasise that the Commonwealth is not providing free medicine for the people of Australia. It is not even contributing any­where near the cost of the service in Queens­land. The Commonwealth's contribution towards hospital benefits is £800,000 and under its pharmaceutical benefit scheme another £60,000, making a total of only £860,000 of a total cost to this State of £3,634,000.

Look at what the Commonwealth Govern­ment take from the people of Queensland by wl!y of social-service tax and every other form of taxation! They are making a political issue in every State of the benefits they allege they are giving, a political issue by which they hope to win the next Federal election.

When we analyse what they really do we find they do virtually nothing. I should not have spoken on this matter if the Minister had not again brought into this Committee the question of Wattlebrae being established in the centre of our great hospital.

lUr •• Jones: You asked me to go into the matter.

JUr. PIE: He brought in the report from the medical director, Dr. Aubrey Pye. I have the highest regard for Dr. Pye, as he bears a high and honourable name in this State, but I say he must stand up to criticism of that great development at Bowen Bridge. I go past the place day and night and at 7 o'clock at night you can see cars parked right along in front of Victoria Park and going down from the museum, creating a bottleneck at Bowen Bridge. I say that it is a danger to the public. That big collection of hospitals has to stop ; it cannot go on. I say that no man, Dr. Pye or anyone else, can administer effectively an orga,nisation such as that, and I appeal to the Minister to stop t~s centralisation and not let members of h1s department go telling the people that although the GoYernment 's attitude has changed on centralisation of hospitals they still intend to build new structures there, because they are constructing it now. They are building a temporary casualty ward.

Mr. Jones: It is necessary.

JUr. PIE: I know. But it is terribly overcrowding the whole business. And what is more, the Government are putting in £150,000 into nurses' quarters in the hub of it.

liir. Jones: You must have nurses' quarters.

1\[r. PIE: Put them at the top of the park but not in the hub where you are going to create a jam of traffic more than you have today. Go down to Bowen Bridge at night­time and see the jam that exists. I appeal to the Government to decentralise and do what they said they would do. Let them go to South Brisbane and Southport and take hospitals away from the city. Don't add to the hospital at Bowen Bridge, because it will be creating trouble.

JUr. Sparkes: And put a few more in the country.

JUr. PIE: Yes. The Minister brought into this Chamber the report from Dr. Pye. I have read that report. He said-

'' There has been some cross infection at Wattlebrae as occurs at any infectious diseases hospital. Mr. Pie states it has been proved cross-infection is coming from the maternity section of the hospital and has cost the lives of many young Queenslanders. I know of no instance of this.

''His statement is unjustifiable and wholly wanting of evidence to support it, Both Wattlebrae and the Women's Hospital have been closely investigated by medi~al scientists of world repute. They have never made any adverse criticism of the location of the two hospitals.''

1136 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The Minister said that this was a very effective reply to the question raised by the hon. member for Windsor. I shall never be happy until I get the Wattlebrae Infectious Diseases Hospital out of the centre of this huge mass of hospital buildings.

I do not make statements to this Committee without some justification. Let me refer to reports as to what the doctor had to say in regard to Wattlebrae in 1942-43. He said-

'' Typhoid fever (including paratyphoid fevers). The annual incidence rate for typhoid fever in Queensland is somewhat high, as is usual in pioneer States, varying between 6.5 and 8 per 100 000 of the population.'' '

''In 1940-41 there were 46 cases of which 19 were in the metropolitan 'area; in 1941-42 there were 67, of which 41 occur­red in the metropolitan area· but in 1942-43, while the extra-metropolitan inci­dence remained at about the usual figure (22), the metropolitan incidence rose to 81, the total for the State being 103 or slightly more than 10 per 100,000. '

'''I' his unexpectedly high rate was due t? an outbreak of paratyphoid fever occur­~·mg at the VVomen 's Hospital, and involv­mg both nurses and patients. The general figure for the metropolitan area remained otherwise unchanged.''

That was about W attlebrae. I can prove my statements. You have only to look at the number of children who died in that period. I can prove to Dr. Aubrey Pyc that it was cross-infection from Wattlebrae.

Speaking in this Chamber in 1944 on the Appropriation Bill No. 2 I snid-

"Let me now come to the Women's Hos­pital. This hospital overlooks Breakfast Creek and adjoins the Wattlebrae infecti­ous diseases hospital. This could create a serious condition. It is known, and the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs admitted in this House, that seven babies died last year from paratyphoid.''

Hon. members opposite have very short memories. The then Secretary for Health and Home Affairs was the present Secretary for Public Lands, the Hon. T. A. Foley.

On 26 October, 1944, I asked the then Secretary for Health and Home Affairs-

'' Will he give details of the 81 persons who died from typhoid fever and para­typhoid fever during the 1942-43 outbreak, under the following headings:-( a) adults, (b) youths, (c) children, (d) infants~"

Of course, hon. members opposite would say that that does not prove anything, but I could bring evidence from any reputable doctor to show conclusively--

]}'[r. Foley: You have not brought it yet.

lUr. PIE: I can bring it. Wattlebrae will have to go from the centre of that hospital block. No-one can tell me, not even Dr. Pve himself, that it is not a menace- to the health of the community so long as it remains there. I have known children to go in there and

have three cross-infections. That is happen­ing regularly, because there is no isolation ward. It is a disgrace to a civilised com­munity.

I remember very clearly the debate in this Chamber when I went through the whole hospital system of this State and I hoped that I should never have to do it again. But the position has not altered. I remember that the House regarded my allegations as being so serious away back in 1944 that the Government called for a special report on them and I have that report by the General Medical Superintendent of the Brisbane General Hospital on the comments made by me on 16 November, 1944. Let us have a look at it to see what Dr. Pye said and whether there are any reasons why we should take this infectious-diseases hospital away from the General Hospital block. What did Dr. Pye have to say in 1944~

On page 934 of Parliamentary Papers, session of 1944-45, is found this-

" Remarks by the General Medical Superintendent''-

that is the same doctor-" The Wattlebrae Hospital is not a

suitable infectious-diseases hospital. It: is to be pointed out, however, that this hospital was built by the City Council and not the Hospitals Board.''

~Ir. Jones: We agree on that.

JUr. PIE : Yet you can come back to this -there has been some cross-infection and there has been proved cross-infection. We also come back to the statement that both Wattlebrae and the Women's Hospital have been closely investigated by medical scien­tists of world repute and they have never made any adverse criticism of the two hospitals.

''Should Mr. Pie's remarks on this subject not have been directed elsewhere~ The hospital was very inadequate for the unprecedented outbreak of scarlet fever last year.''

And so the report goes on, yet you put up year after year with an infectious-diseases hospital that is not big enough. At that time people suffering from infectious diseases had to be treated in their own homes, as there was no room in the hospital.

I now come to criticism of the out-patients' depwrtment at the Brisbane General Hospital. I went there one morning and I ask: is it not a disgrace~ The staff and doctors are trying to handle the people but are not in a position to do so. It is a disgrace. Let us create another out-patients' department but do not bring the out-patients to the present building. I know people who have had to wait th1·ee or four hours before being seen and then they had no privacy. People who come in with disease cannot get the privacy that should be theirs. That is no fault of the doctors. The position must be altered. We cannot continue on in that way. The present position regarding accommodation cannot be improved. In wards that usually accommodate 30 are now found 45 and 50 patients.

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1137

.Mr. Jones: We admit that.

~r_. PIE: Y!lt nothing is done. That posrtwn was pomted out in 1944 and this is 1948, getting onto 1949.

.!Ur. Jones: You got priority to build that factory of yours.

~Ir. PIE: On the way home today I went to the factory and over the hill where the fing~r post directs people to the T'.B. Hospital. Agam at Rode road, after having followed some tortuous tracks, we come to another finger post directing us to the T.B. sana­torium. When we get there what do we s~e~ You see about 2,000 bricks and a founda­tiOn. I do not know who laid the foundation but like the Valley School foundation stone' it was laid before the plans were drawn: That place was started two years ago. I knmy th_e man who was doing the earth­movmg JOb. He could not come to me until he finished that job. That is two years ago. We have had a factory built since then. I guarantee not more than a month's >York was d.one at the_ sanatorium. Yet you have all these srgns leadmg up to the •r.B. sanatorium! 'Ye might _get that institution in 10 years' time, as tlnngs are going.

It h_as. bee~ said1 too, that the wrong type of bmldmg rs gomg up there and that a better building giving more ~ir and light shoul~ b_e substituted. You would be surpnsed rf you knew who told me that. The ~~-me person came out to my place and said,

Why cannot we put up a place to give them more light and air, and where the sun can come through. ''

Now l~t us have a look at some of these other thmgs. This is a very interesting report. I will say that the food for the nurses has imp~oved; there is no doubt about that. As I smd on that occasion the Wattlebrae hospital s~ould be removed t~ an area beyond co~tact wrth other hospitals and nurses. I ~md !hat s~ould there be an outbreak of mfecbous drsease anything like the magni­tude of the scarlet-fever epidemic the year before, g:oss over-crowding would result in tha~ hosprtal, a~d it_ was found during the scarlet-fever eprdemrc that cross-infection ~vas co_mmon, and that was inevitable when it rs reahsed that a patient with one infectious disease was in a bed next to another with an er:tirel:v different infectious complaint. That strll happens now. I said on that occasion that n~rses were going from one patient with one drsease to another patient with another dis­e~se and not changing their gowns. I criti­crsed Wattlebrae and I still criticise it.

I do ~ppre~iate the Minister's telling us that he rs trym~ to ~rganise something dif­ferent, that he rs trymg to take over Rose­mount and do something further in relation to taking out of that centre his infectious­diseases hospital. vVe cannot allow it to go on. I ask the Minister to hurry on the job. I point out that the Commonwealth has room at Greenslopes to handle all the men out there.

Mr •• Tones: We have no say in it.

Jir. PIE: Then the Minister should have some say. Can he not put it to the Common­wealth Government that we need this change~

JlJr. Jones: We put that up.

:iir. PIE : And he should insist on it . He could point out to them that we contribute £3,634,000 and they contribute £860,000. You have room at Greenslopes to handle the men from Rosemount. If you take Wattlebrae out to Rosemount you would have 200 beds avail­able. What would 200 beds mean as a tem­porary centre~ I am trying to get rid of the overcrowding. You could have the 200 beds in which to put infectious diseases at Rosemount and you could take the men out to Greenslopes where there is plenty of room for them. As the hon. member for Toowong said, there are nearly two nurses to one patient out there. Surely we are not going to let this waste effort go. Surely we can get down to a sensible basis. If it is properly put up to the Commonwealth Minister, who I think is Senator McKenna-

Mr. Jones: I have seen him personally on this.

}fr. PIE: Do you know what I think? I think he is retarding the Minister. I believe he wants to carry out that threat that he made to the hon. member for Nor­manby-that we should have no control of hospitals and that they would take over all hospitals. And the hon. member for N ormanby agreed to their taking over all our hospitals. That is Socialism at work.

ilir. Foley: I was never at a conference with McKenna.

.:lir. PIE: Who was the Minister who was at the conference? 'rhe report stated that Senator McKenna said that a conference of State and Commonwealth Ministers in Mel­bourne agreed that week-which was May, 1947-that hospital control should be trans­ferred to the Commonwealth Government.

JUr. Foley: I did not discuss it.

}fr. PIE: Then who was it? The Premier! That is better still; it must have been the Premier, who laid down in 1947 as a guidance to this Parliament that the days of State Governments in relation to hospitals was ended because a Tesponsible Minister said to an irresponsible Minister in Canberra that he agreed that hospital control should be transferred to the Commonwealth Govern­ment. If this is not right the Sydney '' Tele­graph'' is not right.

If the Minister wants more punishment, let us have a bit more of it. The State Premiers recommended also that the Common­wealth Government should direct the training a.nd registration of nurses.

Mr. Jones: There is nothing wrong with that.

JUr. PIE: The Premiers consideren that the Commonwealth Government should fix uniform pay and conditions for nurses

1138 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply

throughout the nation. The Government want centralised government. It was stated that this would prevent unfair competition between the States. The Social Services recommended by the Commonwealth Govern­ment appear to direct and control hospitals and staffs. That cannot be denied. It is the Government's ultimate objective.

JUr. Jones: The point I make is this: that does not indicate the votes of the State. The resolution might have been carried four to three or something like that.

JUr. PIE: Surely the Minister will not hedge like that! When it comes to a point the Minister's Government bow to the dictate of their socialist Government in Canberra. The hon. gentleman knows it. Hon. members opposite know it. They are bound to Social­ism. 'I'hey are a Socialist Government and this is Socialism at work. There is no longer a Labour Government in Australia; they are a Socialist Government. It is centralised Socialist Government in Canberra controlling and dictating hospital services. Even in hospital services that Commonwealth Govern­ment dictate to this Parliament what they shall and shall not do. When the Queensland Golden Casket runs out, bang will go £900,000 or nearly £1,000,000 of the revenue for hos­pitals. I say very definitely that all hon. members on this side of the Committee and all the people have to have a common objec­tive, and that is to defBat the Commonwealth Government from taking over all these ser­vices which have been built up over the years to efficient services in most instances. There are inefficiencies in ho~ital administration and it is our job to point them out. I ask the Minister not to follow the line taken by his predecessors.

(Time expired.)

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers­Secretary for Health and Home Affairs) (8.13 p.m.): The hon. member for Windsor began by criticising the Commonwealth Gov­ernment making available to Queensland £860,000 in hospital benefits. I guarantee that the hon. member for Windsor and every other hon. member opposite, if they have occasion to use a hospital for themselves or their families, would see to it that they collected the £2 16s. a week the Commonwealth Government have made available to them.

lir. Pie: We pay for it.

Mr. JONE1S: We have heard in this Chamber today some very unusual arguments, for instance that put forward by the hon. member for Cooroora. A few days ago the hon. member for Cunningham put forward an unusual contention. This morning the hon. member for Oxley stated that the Government should provide this and that. They are against Socialism and against free medicine and health schemes but this morning the hon. member for Cooroora stated that we should provide X-ray Bquipment free to private patients of doctors. The hon. member for Oxley suggested that we might subsidise the e1·ection of private hospitals but hon. members

opposite must be consistent. Either they are in favour of free medicine and free health services or they are not. They cannot pick out the things that suit them. But that appears to be their attitude today.

The argument of the hon. member for Windsor in regard to Wattlebrae does not hold water when one considers that in Queens­land there are 120 public hospitals. This morning I pointed out that in each of these 120 public hospitals there is an infectious­diseases ward situated anything from thirty to may be one hundred yards from the rest of the hospital. No objection has been taken to that.

The hon. member for Windsor complains about Wattlebrae in particular. I said this morning that only 30 infectious-disease cases had been admitted to Wattlebrae in the past 12 months. As Wattlebrae has a capacity of 200 be·iis it does seem a. waste to have only 30 occupied and the reason why we should like to get the Rosemount building iS' to be able to utilise these 200 beds for general hospital purpo.ses.

The hon. member says it is possible that an epidemic may break out and. our a:ccomm?­>dation will be found insuffiCient. That IS true. It has happened. The hon. member for Gregory, the hon. member for Barcoo, and the hon. member for Warrego will remember that from 1916 until about 1923 or 1924 out­breaks o.f typhoid were common in the shear­ing sheds of Western Queensland. On one occasion practically every shear.er at ~he Kynuna shearing shed was stncken With typhoid. Hospitals could not accommodate the patients and many had to be take!! to other centres. Over the years we nave amended the health laws and effected such improvements in hygiene that typhoid is now unheard of in shearing sheds.

The hon. member for Windsor said also in effect that the pr·esent extension to the casualt'y ward is unnecessary. I went out to the General Hospital recently to inspect that ward. Dr. Pye and members of the Bris­bane and South Coast Hospitals, Board pointed out what they intende.il to do and I repeat that this work is essential. It is also intended to extend the X-ray facilities at the Brisbane Hospital and to provide further accommoda­tion for n(ujrses. Nurses' quarters mus~ be within a reasonable distance of the hospital. We cannot expect nurses who come on duty at midnight to waJk 2,00 or 300 yards to t~e hospital. It is generally admittBd tha: their quarters must be within a. reasonable ·distance of the hospital.

The hon. member's criticism of t~1e ~ength of time that patients have. to wmt IS not entirely fair. About 12 months ago I w_ent to a private doctor not far from whe,re I live. When I got to his surgery I foun-d there we~e about 20 people ahead of me and I had to wait for an hour for attention.

Mr. Pie: You were very foolish to wait thie·re.

}lr. JONES: I did wait, and others have that experience. In these day_s o~e cannot get sell"vice just as one would like It.

Supply [2 NoVEMBEH.] Supply. 1139

~enerally spea~ing we do not get many com­plamts from patlents at the General Hospital. General satisfaction is expressed with the treatment obtained there. I know, as the hon. member stated, that there' is overcrowd­ing. I have been out there and seen the num­bers in some of the wards, and that is one of the reasons why we should like to g'et Wattle­brae for general hospital purposes.

It is all very well for an hon. member to be sarcastic about the building of a T.B. sani­torium. If I had had my way-and I have expressed the opinion already-I should have preferred to have a hospital built rather than the factory built by the hon. member. At no time did he ever complain that he did not get a fair spin. I think it is hardly fail for the hon. member to come into this Cham­ber and speak as he did, after the treatment he received. I have held the opinion for a long while that much of the building going on today should not be going on, and that preference should have been given to the building of hospital!'!. I say that definitely. I say also that in the western narts of Queensland at present some of our ·11ospit;tls are a disgrace. Take those at Cloneurry, Hughenden, Barcaldine, Emerald and quite a number of other hospitals in the West. I have attempted to get a good t:rpo uf hos­pital built in the western parts of Queensland.

lUr. Pie: Do not make the mistake of comparing a hospital building with a factory building, because one is bnilt of fibrolite and the other of brick.

lUr. JONES: One hon. member on that side of the Chamber said that the building of a hospital in fibro was all right. As a matter of fact, I can say now about the building of the T.B. sanitorium at Cherm­side that over the last five or six weeks, together with two doctors and the Under· Secretary of the department, we have visited the institution at Kenmore to get an idea of the type of building there. It is mainly built of fibro, and I believe that we shall have to build a similar one at Chermside.

I think it would be suitable, with the advent of the T.B. scheme of the Commonwealth Government, who propol'!e to meet all capital expenditure on T.B. sanitoriums. I think it will be necessary for us to keep pace with other States and improvise in some way and not stick rigidly to our original plans. We have made a move in that direction and Cabinet has agreed to call for applications for a Director of Tuberculosis. This action is being taken in every State, and very shortly I expect to bring clown legislation that is being prepared by the Commonwealth Govern­ment and forwarded to each State. It is possible, I repeat, that we may have to improvise.

The hon. member referred to a conference at which I attended. I attended a confer­ence during the first wee], after my election to my present office. Many decisions were arrived at at that conference, and it would not be fair to say that because a certain resolu­tion was carried a certain State tabled it. I heard the hon. member for Maree today

make a suggestion, which I favour myself, that the inmates of mental institutions should retain their old-age an invalid pensions.

I could have easily said that two Ministers at th:1t conference refused to support that suggestion.

lUr. Pie: It shows the attitude of the Commonwealth Government.

3Ir. JONES: There were two Ministers who did not support it and they gave their reasons. I can assure yon that they were not Labour Ministers either.

lUr. Pie: It shows the attitude of the Commonwealth Government.

)Ir. JONES: When resolutions are carried they do not mean very much because, if you remember, the Queensland People's Party conference recently held in Hock­hampton carried a resolution condemning the Government for the pollution in the Herbert River and some of the delegates to that con­feren~e were very closely associated with the very company that was being blamed. Hon. members opposite should at least be consistent when they talk about these things. The hon. member for Windsor knows that in advocating this proposal some of his party thought that they were likely to win a particular seat. I only refer to the matter in passing; it is not connected with the vote. However, it is just as well that hon. members opposite should be consistent in these matters.

ilir. DUNSTAN (Gympie) (8.28 p.m.): If there is one thing that I like in any debate in this Chamber-and I have heard a good man:y-it is consistency and adherence to the truth and facts. While the hon. member for Windsor was speaking I endeavoured to inter­ject, ''You need more Commonwealth assistance in the matter of hospital and medical services~'' But what was the attitude of hon. members opposite a little while ago~ I draw your attention to the statement of the hon. member for 'Windsor that he never brings a matter into this Chamber unless he has proof of his statement. He also said that he has a very good memory, and so have I. The hon. member for Gympie has a very good memory indeed, and a long one.

In 1943 on Private Members' Day I had the honour and privilege of moving this motion-

'' That, in the opinion of this House, the Commonwealth Government should accept the responsibility for a share of the cost of hospital and medical services now provided by the State Governments and local authorities, in order that-

(1) Complete medical service could be extended to the whole of the people;

(2) The local authorities be relieved of hospital precepts; and

(3) The local authorities be enabled to concentrate their efforts upon the pre­vention of disease.''

The Leader of the Opposition was kind enough to compliment me on my speech on that occasion and on the preparation of my case.

1140 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

But he differed from me. He did not think we should call upon the Commonwealth Government at all and this is what he said-

'' Is it fair that we as a State should ask the Commonwealth Government, as we do in this motion, to make a contribution to carry on these health services when the financial position of the State is such as it is.~''

Finally he moved the following amend­ment-

' 'In the first line omit the word­' Commonwealth' and insert in lieu thereof the word-' State.' ''

"In the second line omit the words­' a share of.' " Now that we are in the midst of a campaign

of propaganda by hon. members opposite against the socialistic ,Government of the Commonwealth, the hon. member for Windsor asks, nay, demands with all the vehemence at his command that the Common­wealth socialistic Government should share their socialism in this State in the matter of hospital and medical services.

Mr. Pie: No, a greater return on the tax you pay.

~Ir. DUNSTAN: Never mind that; t11e hon. member wants the socialistic service. I have a very good memory for the progress of hospitalisation in this State, both under the voluntary system and the system now established by the Labour Government. I will admit that in the old days voluntary com­mittees who conducted the hospitals did very good work with the means at their disposal. A very noble band of men and women con­ducted tag days or appeals to the public for finance. We did not think that was adequate or in accordance with the importance of hospital medical service for the people, and we established the district hospitals. I am proud to say that in the very instance I have quoted, and the instance I know, namely, the Gympie hospital, it was an institution worthy of support and a good example to other districts. In its establishment, in its main­tenance, and in its conduct it certainly is an example of good administration under the services given by this socialistic Government. I am very proud to have been very long connected with the Gympie hospital.

When we established the maternity hospital in connection with that institution we had to fight the greatest hostility from those con­ducting private hospitals, a very inadequate system in itself. I am not saying anything against private hospitals, but I still maintain that in our system in Gympie today we show a good example of what can be done by voluntary representatives of the Government on the district hospitals board in the conduct of an institution such as that. In the general wards, in the maternity wards, in the amenities, in the nurses' quarters, and in the treatment of patients, we have this fact, that in the voluntary system there were continual complaints in all aspects of hospital adminis­tration and we have practically no complaints since we instituted our district hospital system.

I am more concerned, instead of winning an argument in debate, with seeing the pro­gress of our hospitals and medical services under the Labour Government. I would say this to the hon. member for Windsor, however he may criticise the Government it is due to him to give a full measure of praise to the Labour Government for what they have clone for the hospitals and medical services of Queensland.

Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secretary for Public Lands and Secretary for Mines) ( 8.34 p.m.) : I was interested in the speech of the hon. member for Windsor, who indulged in his usual tactics of attacking the hospital system, particularly the Brisbane Hospital, and also his endeavour to discredit the work performed by the Commonwealth Government since they have introduced the subsidy system to our hospitals in Australia.

I wish to paint a slightly different picture from that presented by the member for Windsor. I should like to draw the attention of hon. members to the position that existed under our old hospital system, which was totally different from the system operating today. In those days you had a voluntary committee tha.t used to go cap in hand to Governments in an endeavour to get a few pounds to enable it to carry on and give a very poor service to the citizens of that time. I recall the time when you could not enter a hospital as you can now, but had to go to some person who was rich enough to subscribe a guinea to the hospital service so tha.t you could get a card to enable you to enter a hospital in the district in which you happened to live.

Mr. Sparkes: You must not forget that you people opposed this for years and years.

lUr. FOLEY: Of course we opposed it. Why should we not oppose such a damnable system as the one that existed at that time~ We not only opposed it but we were building up an organisation to develop the party to which I belong; and when we attained power we altered the system and gradually improved on it year after year until we now have the best hospital system in any part of the world. That is saying a pretty big thing, but I ask hon. members where in any other part of the world you can demand and get free hospital service in a general hospital. Where can you get an absolutely free service such as the one that is being given in every general hospital in Queensland today in the public wards~ Go to any part of America and you cannot get it. Go to Great Britain and you cannot get it. From one of the poorest hospital systems known in the wmld, under which you had to go cap in hand to some subscriber of one guinea in order to get a card to enable you to gain admission, we have progressed till today we have a completely free public hos­pital service operating in this State for both in-patients and out-patients.

This so-called Socialist Government at Canberra that the hon. member for Windsor speaks about was responsible for initiating this free hospital service. I happened to be present at the conference where it was sub­mitted and agreed to by every State in the

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1141

Commonwealth; there were no objections by the representatives of any State to the pro­posals that were submitted. The proposals were that the Commonwealth Government, who were not then subsidising any hospital in Australia, were prepared to subsidise to the extent of 6s., and at a later stage they went so far as to offer to subsidise to the extent of Ss. per qualified patient per day.

Mr. :uacdonald: Who pays for Social Service~

~Ir. FOLEY: I am not arguing about where it comes from. The argument was that they did not contribute anything. I say they contribute this year £860,000, whereas they previously contributed nothing.

An Opposition JUember interjected.

}Ir •. FOLEY: As the result of the social­service payment we have a free hospital ser­vice throughout the Commonwealth.

JUr. ;\Iacdonald: You pay.

llir. }'OLEY: Of course you pay; when you pay your tax you make the contribution. Prior to this system, when you went to a hos­pital for treatment you were pn";ented with a bill and in many cases that caused further mental worry because the patient had used up the last few shillings of his life savings to pay his own account or the account of someone for whom he felt responsible.

As ~I have pointed out, had it not been for the initiative of the Federal Labour Government our present system would not be in operation today. When it was introduced, the pro­posal was that the subsidy should apply to providing free hospital service for every citizen in the Commonwealth who desired to take advantage of the public ward in a general hospital. But Queensland went a little further by assuming the financial responsibility of the whole of the cost of providing an out-patients' service. That, with the provision of the in-patients' service and the itinerant service in the outback parts of the State, has resulted in what might be termed a free hospital system.

So much for this Socialist Government and their socialistic outlook! And might I mention that the int·roduction of a free national medical service in Australia is not far distant. Every citizen in Australia when illness strikes him down or strikes a ~ember of his family, will be able to go to any medi­cal practitioner in the Commonwealth for advice. What is wrong with a service such as that~ Previously men and women had to ~acrifice the whole of their life savings in help­mg some member of the family, relative or friend. In addition to all this, as has been intimated by the Minister in charge of these Estimates, there is al<ready a free T.B. service supported wholly and solely by the so-called national Socialist Government in Canberra which the hon. member for Windsor endeavoured so glibly to belittle. Lab()ur has something to crow about. It has built up the present hospital system from what was at one time the worst system known.

:IIr. Pie: You give credit to the Commonwealth Government for that.

Jir. }'OLEY: I give credit to them for initiating the idea. They now contribute £860,000 per annum to this State whereas formerly anti-socialist Governments contribu­ted nothing at all.

JUr. Luckins: But they did not collect the income tax.

JUr. FOLEY: I know where the money comes fTom but the party represented by hon. members opposite did not have the fore­sight and the initiative to introduce a system of social services to the Commonwealth. It was left to a Socialist Government to do that and now they have done so hon. members opposite decry their efforts.

Under the old system the average working man saved the few shillings he could from his weekly wages and then suddenly illness struck down a member of his family.

Hon. members know what happened. The few shillings that were saved up were suddenly frittered away. But that does not happen today. Under the present system a married man with a wife and three children and earning np to £500 a year does not contribute one penny towards the social-service benefits that he enjoys. Under the old system he had to pay his hospital bill. Under the present system that hon. members opposite are deplor­ing that he pays no hospital bill.

JUr. Russell: But he has to pay taxation.

Jlir. FOLEY: I am trying to point out that the average worker vyith a wife and three children who earns from £450 to £470 . a year pays no social-service contribution, although he enjoys full benefits. And hon. members opposite try to argue that it is not a free service!

We can be very proud , indeed of the service we have built up. Even the Minister admits, of course, that there is room for more hospitals. When I was Minister in charge of this department we adopted a system of de10entralisation, a system that provided for a hospital at South Brisbane, another at Wynnum, another in the Sandgate area, and so on. Hon. members know that you cannot build big hospitals unless you have steel.

IUr. l'\Iacdonald: You can build castles in the air.

JUr. FOLEY: We cannot build the new hospitals contemplated in the Government's programme until we have the necessary material. We have the money and the labour, and I can assure the Committee that when the Minister gets the necessary materials we shall sec hospitals springing up. Only the other day we called tenders for a hospital at Emerald.

:Jir. S]mrkcs: ·whose electorate is that?

:illr. }'OUEY: Irrespective of the electorate, it is needed. Hon. members opposite will admit, if they are fair, that the hospital system is flourishing just as well in electorates represented by anti-Labour parties as in Labour electorates. Hon. members should at least be fair and admit that not

U42 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

even the Minister can build hospitals without material. They should know also that it is <>nly the shortage of materials that is pre­venting us from carrying out our hospital -decentralisation policy. The programme has been decided upon, the money is available, but no man can bring his plan to fruition without material.

In conclusion I again emphasise that Labour can be proud of the hospital system it is building up. In a comparatively few years, we have built -up from what was known as the old voluntary system, a system that gaye a very poor measure of service, one of the best seTVices--

lUr. Luckins: What year was that'?

l\fr. FOLEY: About 1907, ·when one had to get a card from a subscriber to . a hos­pital before one could go through the hos­pital gates to see a doctor. T-here was the stage when we b1ed local authorities to the extent of £300,000 or £400,000 a vear. We did away with that system and gave a very free system so far as contributions were con­ceriwd. .Notwithstanding the attempts to belittle the Socialist Government, at Canberra, as hon. members opposite term them, let it be remembered that they were responsible for initiating in the first place what we know as a free hospital service throughout the Commonwealth.

Mr. RUSSELL (Dalby) (8.51 p.m.): On Thursday last during the debate on the Chief Office I dealt with the question of the Dalby Hospital and I expressed the views of the ·people of Dalby. I am sorry to have again to raise the question, but due to the criticism directed at me I f·eel compelled to reply. The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs evidently believes in the maxim that the best def·ence is attack and in this case he made a _personal attack on my manners, my money, and my honesty of purpose.

History is_ made up of struggles to right wrongs; in this case the people of Dalby feel wrong>ed.

The Minister said that I was a tube through which somebody else was blowing. What other tube have the people of Dalby othar than their e1ected re-presentative to speak for them in this Chamber. Certainly I am the tube through which the people of Dalby speaik.

The Government will not face facts; the Minister says I have two hospitals in my elec­torate. How dare I ask for more!

I am treated as a modern Oliver Twist ask­ing for more-someone whose presence is offensive to the professional politicians and, like Oliver Twist, I am accused of having bad manners.

He asserts that my presence is offensive to him and his colleagues and he introduces something quite beside the point-my personal possessions and, for good measure adds the sneer-amateurish.

If unwittingly my manner offends, it is quite unconscious. T feel very sorry if I have hurt the Minister personally but he must not

take indignation for insolence nor insistance for bad manners. Surely it is not an offence to disagree with the Minister g Surely it is wrong for the Minister to regard those who disagree with him as insolent or offensive?

To the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs I say that I have the highest per­sonal regard for him and I a<m sorry indeed if he has taken exception to my defence of rights of the people of Dalby.

If an apology for my mannerism is due I make it willingly and sincerely; that remark applies to anybody who has been hurt by my approach or manners at any time. I can assure him that the offence was quite uncon­scions.

The Minister sElems to have taken strong exception to the report in the newspaper of a public meeting that I attended in Dalby. I was there by ilwitation and was naturally asked to express my views. After the allega· tion made against me I looked up this paper and should like to read from the report.

This is a Dalby paper, bearing date 30 July last, and it contains the following report of a public meeting--

''At a conference of representatives of the Chamber of Commerce, Dalby Ratepay­ers' Association, Returned Soliders' League, Queensland Dairymen's Organisation, Graingrowers' Association and the Dalby Freedom League, it was agreed to appoint a deputation of five to wait on the Dalby Hospitals Board to discuss with it, in an amicable helpful spirit, matters connected with hospital administration.''

It goes on to report what I had to say. This is the report-

" Tenders Too High. ''At the conference on Tuesday night,

Mr. C. W. Russell, M.L.A., who was pres­ent by invitation, said he had been ac_ting in a liaison capacity between the Hospitals Board and the Minister and Department. At no time had the Department intimated that anything but a ma~e.rnity block w~s to be built here but proVISIOn was made m the plans for ldtchens and nurs~s' q~arters which would serve a general wmg If such were added later. In 1!147 tenders had been called for the erection of the building but the prices quoted for the work were so much above the estimate that the Minister would not take the responsibility of agree­ing to the work being done and referred the matter to Cabinet, and Mr. Russell who explained that the Dalby. Hospitals Bo:>rd had been asked to submit alternate Sites for consideration but had not done so. Concerning the original point near the Tara railway line which was claimed to be high­est and dryest piece of land, in Dalby, Mr. Russell said nobody had taken the resp<:n­sibility of proving to the Department Its suitability by means of a contour survey.

''Difference of Opinion. ''As an example of the differences of

opinion concerning the suitability or other­wise of the site Mr. Russell quoted the Wambo Shire Clerk (Mr. Darcy Ar;n­strong) as saying it was no good wh1le

Supply. [2 NOVEMBER. J Supply. 1143

the reverse O·pinion was held by th€ Dalby Town Clerk (Mr. Thorley). It was made clear that neithBr of the officers were speak­ing on behalf of th€ council but each was a man who was qualified to speak of local conditions. No matter in what part of Dalby the hospital was built, the founda­tions would have to be protected, said Mr. Russell, who pointed out that the large amount of money mentioned in connection with costs as being for filling was for the protection of the foundations and not for filling in a hole in the ground.

"Mr. Russell said he had been told by the architects a few days ago that amended plans had been forwarded on 8 March to the Dalby Hospitals Board for its perusal but up to then no reply had been received from the Board. Departmental o.fticers had also told him, said Mr. Russell, that no letters concerning the new hospital from the Board had been placed on the depart­mental files since November of last year. The Minister had told him, continued Mr. Russell, that the money for the new hos­pital had been allocated but the trouble was that the Board would not do what had been asked of it in the way of submitting another site.'' It says in conclusion-

'' Mr. Russell, M.L.A., said he was taking steps to have the case for a new hospital for Dalby re-stated for submission to the Minister.''

ThBre is nothing offensive in that. It is the only meeting I have ever attended, and I am not a shareholder in the local paper.

Mr. Wanstan: That differs from what the Minister said.

Mr. RUSSELL: It is entirely different from what the Minister said, and it is the only meeting that I ever attended.

The Minister said also that I did not write the letter that I read in this Chamber. Cer­tainly it was not wholly composed by me. Obviously some of the history was not known to me and I became informed of it in order that I could present the facts to the Minister. As I have shown, he jull't disregarded it. That is my complaint.

The Minister spoke of me as being an amateur in politics, but I do not regard his remarks as damaging criticism, but rather as a compliment. I can assure you, Mr. Devries, that I have no desire whatever to ever become a professional politician.

The matter the Minister spoke of as being amateurish concerns a dentist, who was one of his own departmental employees, and that is the reason why I sent his application to the minister, because I deemed that he would be interested in him, and I felt that he would carry a great deal more weight with the New South Wales department than I should.

It must also be recognised that I am speak­ing for the ordinary people of Dalby, not for the rich, into which category the Minister has placed me. I would point out, too, to the Minister that being rich, as he likes to call me, I can well afford to come to Brisbane to

have whatever medical treatment I may require from time to time but it is not so with the majority of the people of Dalby, who are largely the workers whom he claims to represent.

The Minister says that it is going to take £20,000 for filling in this site and that the cost per bed would be £2520, or £349 a square.

That is the whole point. Those plans were abandoned and new plans were made, involving no filling, which would save £15,000. A new building was designed that reduced the cost by £19,180, making a total saving of £34,180. Surely that would reduce the cost per bed~

Those were the plans that were never con­sidered by the department and that the Minister says he never saw. They were sent under registered cover from Dalby on 23 April. The chairman of the Dalby Hospitals Board, subsequently, discussed them with a member of the Department of Public Works. They were sent to the Department of Health and Home Affairs, which department never acknowledged them, but evidently sent them to the Department of Public Works. It was there the chairman of the board discussed the new plans.

That is all I want to say on the question of the Dalby hospital. I wanted to state the position and leave it to hon. meml9ers to judge.

I have read in "Hansard" the contribution made to that debate by the hon. member for Gregory. He really looked ridiculous when he denied that the hospitals boards were run by Australian Labour Party members. Here are just a few facts concerning hospital boards that I have investigated. The Roma Hospital Board is composed of one-half Australian Labour Party members, leaving the chairman uut. We will say that they are like Caesar's wife, above suspicion.

The Dalby Hospitals Board is composed of four Australian Labour Party members out of six. The St. George Hospitals Board has four Australian Labour Party members out of six. At Cunnamulla all the members are Labour. A chairman of one of those boards told me in no uncertain terms that in his opinion the boards have no say at all in the management of the hospitals, that it was all a farce, and that they are controlled from Brisbane.

The hon. member described me as a political larrikin. I will say to the hon. mem­ber for Gregory that if he likes to look through any of my speeches that I have made in this Chamber, he will find nothing in them that can be described as larrikinism. He was a larrikin on that very evening, as when interjecting to the hon. member for Aubigny he said, ' ' I will bet you fifty quid so and so"-" I will bet you fifty quid" and the Chairman had to call him to order and say, "This is not Albion Park." I ask you, Mr. Mann, who is the political larrikin ~

I was rather interested in the statement by the Secretary for Public Lands who talked about free hospitals. No one should get the idea that hospitals are free, because we are·

1144 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

paying for them. We are all paying through the many forms of taxation and it is stupid to say it is free.

I have been struck by the amount of money being handled by the Department of Health and Home Affairs. This represents more than all the revenue of the State, ( exclud­ing the Commonwealth grants of income tax) in addition to the estimated amount of over £2,500,000 from Trust and Special Funds and £300,000 from hospital payments by the public. These vast sums totalling nearly £8,000,000 are being expended by this one department.

I want to make this recommendation to the Government: in view of the recent big growth in the size and expenditure of this department, hospitals should be excised from this department and a special branch of hospitals should be expanded to a depart­ment.

I want, too, to make a very strong p~otest to the Minister at the callous disregard {If the people's rights by the presentation of the Estimates of such a vast expenditure for hospitals and so little detail as to how the money will be spent.

I commend to the Minister, when he is next supervising the compilation of the Estimates to see that we are given full details <Jf the hospital expenditure as in the case of the other regional activities, such as native affairs and mental hospitals.

It is interesting to note that the estimated <Jxpenditure of £1,600,000 from revenue, under the heading of ''Hospitals,'' warrants approximately about 6 inches of printing space in the Estimates, and last year a con­temptuous single line was all that was given for an estimated £1,250,000. Surely an ·estimated expenditure of nearly £2,000,000 on salaries and wages for hospitals deserves more attention than the mere entry of one line'

In this part of the Estimates the figures are staggering as to size and the information correspondingly scanty.

In most cases, by a survey of the Budget one can discover how much is paid out in wages to anyone of the Public Servants from the junior clerk to the highest executive, yet in respect of hospitals only one line is given to this information.

In setting out the particulars of the esti­mated cost for mental hospitals, for instance, :full details of the budgeted expenditures are given, but when it is desired to' find out any of this information on any one hospital or group of hospitals, the Government Budget is quite useless.

It is not apparent also from the accounts that the Minister has presented to the Com­mittee, to which account the Golden Casket :funds are paid. These are apparently smothered up in Trust and Special Funds. I should be very glad if the Minister could ,elucidate this particular point.

Possibly the Minister and the Government are pleased at the apparent saving effected

in the Chie:c vffice of the department, where an expenditure of £218,220 was made, from an appropriation of £232,495. In this appro­priation the sum of £20,063 was set aside for the salaries of certain highly trained technical staff, and only £14,580 was paid from that sum. Those figures are taken from the special headings of the medical appropriation and also from the State school health services.

It appears the Government anticipate being able to fill those positions in the current year, because they have made an appropria­tion of £23,095 for the forthcoming year.

The facts indicate a drift from the Govern­ment service, because the Government have been unable to fill the vacancies for highly­trained technical officers. This is understand­able when one considers the grades of salaries. Salaries for dentists range from £619 to £744 per annum. Bank clerks draw £600 per annum today. Salaries of medical officers range from £844 to £944 per annum, with slightly increased emoluments for certain specialised and technical positions. Country medicos receive £800, a free house, and the right of private practice.

Because of these very low salaries I feel that the Government will not be able to fill positions unless they offer substantially increased salaries. Surely a reasonable salary can be paid to skilled men and women~

Any person expert in his profession would be able to command very much higher salaries in private spheres. If he is not expert, then he is not good enough for a position in the Department of Health and Home Affairs.

We might draw a comparison between the salaries this Government pay to professional men and those being paid to mine workers at Mt. Isa, the average earnings of the latter amount to £16 a week or £800 per annum. The high rates of remuneration are given because of the association of these employees with lead, but surely a doctor or a dentist who is in continual contact with virulent germs is in just as great danger as these miners, and consequently is worth more than he is being offered at the present time1

I urge the Government very strongly to review salaries, not only those paid to their top men, because otherwise the best brains will not be attracted to the service, but those paid to the lower grades also. In an endeavour to save cost, an effort should be made to weed out some of the people who are not pulling their weight. The department must pay salaries that will induce the best brains in the country to enter its service and remain in the service, not as at present with the knowledge that after giving the best years of their life to the service the only hope of reward is a comparative pittance that would be laughed at by those with the same qualifications in private practice.

I hope the Government will give considera­tion to these points, particularly so far as salaries are concerned. This does not apply only to the Department of Health and Home Affairs. Every department of the Public Service is losing its top men, and having lost them it takes a long time to replace them.

Supply. [2 NoTEMBER.] Supply. 1145

l\Ir. TURNER (Kelvin Grove) (9.15 p.m.) : The imprm·ement that has taken place in our hospital system since 1932 has been t:othing short of revolutionary. Most of those changes are due to the work of our present Premier. ·when he was a boy he contracted typhoirl fever. As his father was only a good decent hard-working citizen who could not afford to keep him at home with a trained nurse, he had to go into hospital. At the back of his bed was a tag containing the word ''Pauper.'' He was too young to understand what it meant, but when he began to get better he asked his mother and she explained the meaning of it to him. This made him frightfully embarrassed and he took a pledge that if ever he could do any· thing to remove that stigma from hospital service he would do it. Fortunately for this State Mr. Hanlon was elected to Cabinet in 1932 and held the important portfolio of Home Secretary. He immediately set about changing the pernicious hospital system operating then and he has clone wonderful work.

One of the most important things he did 1-.as to give the people the best possible medical treatment obtainable in the State. By means of co-operation with specialists who gained most of their know ledge at the expense of patients in the General Hospital and who were anxious to return the benefit, he was able to make the services of specialists in all classes of treatment available to the people. Now any person requiring any treatment at all can obtain it at no cost whatever. The hon. member for Windsor said that there was a line of motor-cars along the street outside the hospital tonight. This shows that not only those who cannot afford to pay but also those who could afford it are taking advantage of free hospitalisation. They have not put their noses in the air and refusel1 the Federal Government's aid.

The Secretary for Mines said tonight that no married man with a wife and three children earning up to £475 a year pays either income tax or social-services tax now. I have checked up that statement ancl ascer· tained that 1,250,000 people who paid social· services tax last year make no contribution whatsoever this year, yet they are entitled to all hospital treatment they need. Hon. members opposite decry the Federal Govern­ment, referring to them as the Socialist Gov· ernment, but in doing so they are indulging merely in lousy, miserable, political pro­paganda.

3Ir. S]Jarkes: You should not use the word "lousy."

:ur. TURNER: Then let me say it is miserable and mean propaganda.

The hon. member for ·windsor complains nbout the £860,000 being paid by the Federal Government. Let me explain how that amount was arrived at. When the Federal Govern· ment decided to provide free hospital service throughout Australia they called for reports trom all. States as to the average daily pay· ment bemg made by patients. Queensland's

1948-2Q

dailv average was the highest in the Common­weaith. Under the system operating here at that time, those who could afford to pay were expected to contribute £3 3s. a week l'hile in hospital. Those who could not afford £3 3s. paid whatever they could af!ord ancl those who could not afford anythmg were not expected to contribute one penny, yet theY received the same excellent treatment as "those who paid the £3 3s. ~hen the average of the three types of patients . was taken out it came to 5s. 8d. a clay a patient; the highest daily payment in the whole of the Commonwealth.

In the other States the rate was so low that the Commonwealth Government averaged the whole and said "We will make it 6s. a dav. '' Because the 'people in the other States, th~ Tory States could not afford to p_ay, Queenshind had t~ suffer. It was then costmg the Queensland Governn;en.t 18s. a day for hospitalisation. Today It IS f~ee, and ~very person who goe~ to th~ intermediate or pnvate sections can still clmm Ss. a day from the Federal Government.

iUr. Pie: It is costing the State 14s. a clay.

;\Ir. 'fERXER: Yes, but ho~pitalisation does not cost the patient anythmg. I have alreauy told the Committee that ~,2501000 who previously paid tax are not paymg It today. Consequently any man with a wife and three children who does not pay tax can get hospitalisation free.

I object to the ho11. member for Wind~or 's discrediting Dr. Pye, as he has clone tomght. On several occasions the hon. member has made the statement that Dr. PJ:e cannot manage the huge Brisbane ~ospital. He repeated it tonight. Dr. ~ye IS. as capable of administering the medical side of. the General Hospital as the hon. member IS. of managing his woollen mills, his beddmg factory, his poultry farm, and oth~r concerns, as well as being a member of Parhan;ent. If the hon. member can do all those JO_bs Dr. Pve can do his job much more €'aSily. I object to anvone 's reflecting on such a noble and capable" man as Dr. f'ye. In th~ nob~e work he is doing there IS no man m thiS Commonwealth more humane than he.

;)lr. Pie: He is one of the most capable men in Queensland.

JUr. TURNER: Not only in Queensland, but in Australia, ancl his object is to serve the people, not to m~ke money. He could go into private practice and make £10,000, £15 000 or £20 000 a year, but he is content to ~tay 'at the Brisbane Hospital and treat the sick and suffering. He does not want money; he 'mnts to use his knowledge to cure people for the sake of humanity. He does not want to hoard money, he does not go about with his hands clasped like a miser. His concern is to heal ancl comfort the sick, and he is doing a mighty job.

lUr. Pie: Mr. Fadden is outside and wants to see you.

1Ur. 'fURNER: I don't care: he would not worry me.

1146 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I congratulate the Minister and the officers of his department for increasing the subsidy to the ambulance brigade. Last year it was £57,000. This organisation is doing a tremendous job throughout Queensland. The Minister, in his generosity only a few weeks ago, as a result of a deputation consisting of Messrs. Graham, Brown, and myself, in com­pany with the president and secretary of the ambulance committee, has granted another 2s. 6d. subsidy for general bodies, and a further 2s. 6d. to the Cairns centre to support its aerial ambulance. I can assure him of our deep appreciation of his generosity. It has brought great satisfaction to the brigade. The Minister has made the condition that this money will only be applicable to those centres associated with the executive com­mittee.

The executive committee consists of one representative from every centre in the State. Some of these eentres have grown to the adult stage and feel that they can now stand on their own feet. The matter had ln·ought about much discontent and it looked serious for the Ambulance Brigade. \Ve have to remember that this is a Queensland Ambulance Transport Brigade and that some centres were endeavouring to break away and give themselves a local name, which was not approved by the general body. The ~linister made it a condition that the money would be paid only to those centres affiliated with the general committee and that has brOtight about a great deal of satisfaction. I express to the :Minister the appreciation of the committee of the considemtion that he gave in this connection.

It is generally agreed that the ambulance gives a marvellous service to the people throughout the State. It is run by voluntary committees, which adopt all sorts of means of raising funds for their organisations. Such funds a·1·e now subsidised by the Go\ernment to the extent of 10s. in the pound for the ordinary ambulance and 13,. in the pound for the aerial am1Ju!ance.

I was at Georgetawn on one occasion when the matron of the hospital took seriously ill and was in urgent need of medical attention. The aerial ambulance \YDS sent from Cairns with a doctor, who on arrival at Georgetown realised that the matron was in a bad condition. He suggested that the return flight should be made at a height of 7,000 feet, he admini>tcred a blood transfusion and radioed the 'Cairns Hospital to have the operating theatre readv for an immediate operation. The aerial ·ambulance took two hours to fly from Carrns to Georgetown, half an hour was required to get the patient ready for the return flight and within four and a-half hours of the call for the ambulance being made, the matron was in the Cairns operating theatre. The docto•r expressed the opinion that but for the aerial ambulance her life could not have been saved. She required a blood transfusion hnmediately to give her strength to withstand the shock of the operation.

A similar trip was made to Coen, where a man had been seriously injured. He too had to be given a blood transfusion in the air.

The people of Queensland generally appreciate the valuable services of this organisation. I know how hard it is for this voluntary organisation to raise the funds it requires. It has to conduct fetes, raffles, and the like, but I deplore the fact that the very men who give this valuable service have to stand in the streets with collection boxes and poke them under · the noses of the people in order to raise the funds they 'l'equire. They are very conscientious in their service and are anxious to serve the people to the best of their ability. We are f01tunate indeed in having such a service. At the present time there are other places clamouring for this service and there are people there who are willing to act on committees to Taise the necessary funds. These people are anxious to provide a similar sm·vice in their districts.

The difficulty in the past has been to get motors to give the service. We are anxious to provide decent accommodation for the committees to accommodate their materials and equipment. Some of the buildings, like some of the hospitals, are not altogether what the Government desire, nor what some of the ambulance committees desire. I hope the day is not far distant when the Government will increase the subsidy to £ for £, as before 1929. Unfortunately in the 1929-32 period the Moore Government reduced the :rubsidy to ambulance brigades to 6s. in the £. It is gradually creeping up again and, as I say, I look forward to the clay when the depart­ment will restore the full £ for £ snbsiclv that prevailed previously. 'rhat will enable the ambulance senice to be such as the committees desire.

I commend the Minister for improving the department's services, particularly in the general hospitals. \V e know how necessary it is, with the number of accidents occurring today, for the victims to 1·eceive immediate attention in the casualty 'mn1s. The hospi.­tals board is doing all it possibly can to oYercome the congestion a1H1 to admit the in.iurecl to hospital immediately. It is tragic that when a serious accident happens and the patient is brought to the casualty ward, he has to wait some time there before receiv­ing treatment.

\Vhen the ambulance conveys a serious case to the casualty ward the bearers inform the doctor of the condition of the patient, where­upon immediate attention is provided to pre­Yent complications from setting in. I com­mend the Minister and his officers on the good work they are doing and I express my appreciation to the doctors, nursing staff and staff generally of the Brisbane General Hos­pital for the services they are rendering the people. I commend Mr. Anclerson, the former secretary of the Brisbane and South Coast Hospitals Board, now Commissioner for Trans­port, on the revolutionary change he created in placing the board and hospital on a sound footing. It was a mighty effort. I com­mend also Mr. Marley, his successor, on the good work he is doing.

~Ir. BURROWS (Port Curtis) 9.33. p.m.): The hon. member for Daiby com­plained about the number of professiOnal men

Supply. [2 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1147

leaving their employment with the Govern­ment, and attributetl that fact to their par­simonious treatment at the Governnwnt 's hands. That problem is not peculiar to the Government of Queensland; it is common to :111 Governments. The non-Labour Gm·crn­ment in Victoria are facing that n•r:- diffi­n!lt.v, for :he • · SyLlney Bulletin'' of 27 October said-

• 'A Public Seniee Board report tabled in the Victorian Assembly complains of 'a grave loss of staff' hy the State Public Service. The loss is felt most !'leverely in the case of scientific antl technical officers who have been hned away by better-paid jobs."

That condition is indicative to the general prosperity existing. It is oll\-ious that if Governments compete >vith other authorities for the serviees of professional men a con­tinuous auction sale for them will result. I think those who :ne criticising the Govern­ment for their adion would he much louder in their outcry if the Government were to get the services of these people by outbidding arul entering into unfair competition with othCTs.

Another complaint made by the hon. member fOT Dalbv was the lack of detail in the Estimates. :i: do not think anybody is denied information bv the Government. \Ye listen to a list of questions each morning, some of which are ridiculous, and it is obvious that hon. members opposite ask these ques­tions because it is an easy way of attending to correspondence and it provides a method of getting in-I >YOuld not call it propaganda, but impropaganda. \Ve have the Queensland political penerts on our right here.

'l'l!e CHAIIDIA~: Order! I think that >Yord is objectionable and I ask the hon. member to use some other word.

}!r. HURROlYS: I am quite prepared to mix it with them in any way they like if the word is objectionable. I heard the hon. member for Sandgate accuse us of being Hitler's party and that is just as objection­able to me.

}Ir. DECKER: I suppose the hon. member is •rambling; but if he used my name in such a statement, I say that I never said it, and I ask that he apologise and withdraw.

}[r. BURROWS: Mr. Manu, members opposite romplain a great deal about the small amount contributed towards the upkeep of hospitals by the Commonwealth Govern­ment, but I ask them to bear in mind how our hospitals are controlled. When they eriticise the Commomvealth Government I ask them whether they realise that the Common­wealth Government contributes £860,000 a

year to the hospitals. Have the Commonwealth Government one representative on the hospitals boards~ No. Take the composition of hospitals boards. How much do the local authoritiL·s contribute towards them today? crhe? contribute nothing, but they have. a representative on each board. It is by the grace and good will of the Government that this is done, but the Opposition are trying to

rob the lcH ll authoTities of all their rights and priYi!rges. T remember that the local ,,nthoritic·s bnd t0 contribute towards the deficienn~ bet\H'21' the revenue and exjJcn<li­ture of iwspitals boards in the ratio of 60-40, and wme mcmbeTS of the Opposition-on~ or t\Yo-werc members of the party that pledged itself during an election campaign to repeal that pro,·ision. They >Yere going to give the local authmities 1·elief from the hospitals tax. What happened'' Tn 193:2 >Ye still had the hospitals tax after three years' in office of an olmoxious promise-breaking Government.

BY the process of e1·olution we have seen a g1:adual improvement in our hospitals. The Secretary for ;',lines \Yent back to the time when .it 1n1s uecess~uy and a condition pre­cedent to the admission of any person to a hospital, irrespertive of his condition, that he should ha,~e ,,-hat >vas knmvn as a ticket. He was not admitted to the hospitaL no matter hm,- sick he was, unless he had a ticket from some person wi10 had donated one guinea or probably more to that hospital.

}Ir .. Sparkps: Did he tell you what year that >Yas ·1

}fr. BFRROWS: That was in 1915. The late .J ames Stopford \\·as responsible for the introduction of the Hospitals Tax Act in 1923.

)fr. SjJarkt's: Taxed the man with a hit of land.

I\Ir. HUR.ROWS: The party that the hon. member for .\ubigny represents promised the man with a bit of land that it would 1·eliew him of that rc>sponsibility. But what did it do? It broke its promise. It broke that pledge, the same as it broke its pledge to the bo;vs \\·hom it was going to find jobs for, and everybody Plse. \Vhat did it do as Tegards hospital administration? I was secretary of a hospital at that time.

Jlr. Sparkes: Did they sack you?

}Ir. Bl'!tROWS: They held a Caucus meeting to sack me. I was secTetary of the hospitals board and >ve received a letter from the Department of Health and Home AffaiTs. At that time the Home Secretarv was Mr. PeteTSon, who had ratted from the Labour Part;· to .]om the Opposition and was appointed Home Secretary as a reward foT ratting. He circularised eveTy hospital board, notifying us that the Hospitals Award had been cancelled and it was now a matter for the board to fix salaries. Qualified sisters \\-ere paid £80 a year and the nurses lower down the scale >YeTe reduced proportionately and the nurses on the lowest scale received only 7s. 6d. a week. In addition, the nurses' hours were extended. 01-ertime was not paid for. Estimates for pro,-isions, such as meat, eggs, and milk, necessary items in the diet of a hospital, were all pruned. The rule operated that everything had to be divided IJy two. That >vas the task that faced those administering hospitals. The wages for >Ya rdsmen \Ye re reduced to £1 a week and tucker.

1148 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

Jl'Ir. Sparkes: You would be overpaid at that.

1\Ir. BUllROWS: There is nothing the hon. member would like better than to see a return of those days; in fact, he ·would prefer to go further and have what he calls the Sparkes Award. Under the Sparkes Award one works for nothing, eats prickly-pear, and votes whicl~ever way the boss directs.

Before concluding I would express again my disgust at the attitude of hon. members opposite, particularly those of the Oueensla.nd People's Party. Each time they get the opportunity they condemn the Brisbane Hos­pital. The hon. members must not think I am boasting, but there is no man in this Chamber who is more competent to judge of the services given by that hospital than I am. I was 21 years secretary of a hospital and I think I am the equal of any other layman in forming a judgment of the efficiency of the senices given by the Brisbane Hospital.

In addition, I was a patient at the Brisbane General Hospital for a few ·weeks about this time last ye-ar. When I hear hon. members opposite condemning the management and the services rendered by that great institution, I naturally feel extremely resentful. Unfor­tunately, my vocabulary is not extensive enough to allow me to aptly describe the wonderful work done by that worthy institu­tion. It is a credit to the State and we should at least have decency enough to keep it out of party politics.

The other day the hon. member for Sand­gate posed as a psychiatrist. I congratulate the Minister on his reply to the hon. member's absurd assertions. He is a layman, yet he claims to know more than the doctors and experts. He claims to be the supreme authority, and I can only hope that in all fairness to the institution the authoritative replies of experts, as quoted by the Minister this morning, receive the same publicity as that given to the absolutely snide opinions voiced by the hon. member for Sandgate last week. If he had kn0wn anything at all about the subject he would have remained silent. He really demonstrated his ignorance on the subject by speaking as he did.

Then hon. members opposite complain about lack of detailed information. We have 62 hospitals boards in Queensland and 116 public hospitals. These hospitals boards furnish reports to the department, and hon. members oppetsite would appreciate the wealth of detail they contain if they were forced to read them or write them out. The infor­mation that has been given to the Assembly is ample, and I freely admit that it is beyond my capacity to read every report with the care and attention that we should give to them, yet hon. members opposite pretend that they want more information.

Progress reported.

'l'he House adjourned at 9.51 p.m.

Questions.