Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

THURSDAY, 22 AUGUST 1918

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1636 Tfctqco Bi:Z. [COUNCIL.] Wages Bill.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THURSDAY, 22 AUGUST, 1918.

The PRESIDENT (Hon. W. Hamilton) took tha chair at ha!f-paot 3 o'clock.

PAPERS.

The following papers w~re laid on the table, and ordered to be printed:-

Report on the .Jubilee Sanatorium, Dalby, for 1917-18.

Despatch conveying His Majesty's assent to Acts passed during session of 1917

Reg:ulation, dated 8th August, under tho Land Acts, 1910 to 1917.

Ordered to be printed.

LAND TAX ACT AMEND::\<IENT BILL.

PosTPO!-IE1tENT OF ORDER FOR CoNSIDERATIO:<r OF ASSEMBLY'S MESSAGE.-INTERIM REPOR'r FROM MANAGERS.

On the Order of the Day being called for the further consideration in Committee of the Assembly's message on the Bill,

Hox. P. J. LEAHY said: I have to r~­port that the managers of the Council met the managers of the Assembly this afternoon; we discussed the points in dispute at some length, reported progress, and are to sit again on Monday n(lxt.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. A. J. Jones): I beg to move-That the Order of the Day be postponed until Tuesday next.

WAGES BILL.

MOTION FOR RECmiMITTAL.

On the Order of the Day being called for the third reading of the Bill,

The SECRETARY FOR MINES said: I beg to move-That the Bill be now read a third time.

Ho:<r. T. J. O'SHEA: I beg to move, by way of anwndmont, to omit the words, " now read n third time," with a view to inserting the words " recommitted for the recon­sideration of clause 3."

Amendment agreed to.

RECOM)IITTAL.

;Hon. TV. F. Ta!flor in the chair.)

On clause 3-" lnterpretation"-

Hox. T. J. O'SHEA moved the addition of the following words to the definition of " worker," after line 17, page 3-

" The term does not include-(a) A barrister, solicitor, convey­

ancer, or legal practitioner, or a legally qualified medical practitioner, or an authorised surveyor, or a registered pharmaceutical chemisG or a regis­tered dentist, or a registered optician, or a public analyst. or a veterinary surgeon, or a consulting engineer, or an architect, or a public accountant, actuary, or auditor, or any other

[Hon. P. J. Leahy.

person retained or engaged to render pr?fessional services requiring persona! skill, knowledge, and attention; or

(b) A person who contracts directly with an employer for the performance of work not performed solely by such person; or

{c) An auctioneer or agent; or (rl) A JlC'rson employed on .,~agr·s at

a 1 ate exceeding thre<> hundrucl ponnds per annum."

The amendment was an honest attempt to cure a very serious defect in the Bill. He had to acknowlcdg~ the kindly assistance of thA lion. 11r. Thynne, who, like himself. realised that difficulties were likelv to arise without somp amendment of the k'ind. The Government, for some r(;lason, solemnlv de­dined throughout the proceedings in' con­nection with the Bi]] to define ''work," in other "ords, to define the nature of the ser­vices for which an emplovee could sue for recovery of his wages. ' He thought an honest effort might have been made by them to frame a satisfactory definition. There was a definition in the old Act, which had done good service for half a c"ntury. It was highly desirable to give an employee L.orc e!Iective methods for recovering his wages than were given to ordinary citizen& for the r~covery of other debts. All were agreed that he should have better facilities, but unfortunately neither the Government nor anv one behind the Government had made ~ny honest attempt to define who should have that right.

Hon. R. SmiNER: Everybody should have it.

Hon. R. BEDFORD: \Yhat. IS vour attempt?' \Yould you make exemptions·~

HoN. T. J. O'SHE,\: There must be exemptions, unlcc,, thev were going to estab­lish a r,ew principl'' of imprisonment for eYcrv md of debt. If hon. member, were not "in favour of imprisonment for evc,ry sort of debt, what debts were thev in favour of imprisnn1ncnt for? "

Hon. I'. J. LEAHY: They imprison a man for uniou dues now if he does 1:ot p:. v th<>m; so thev mu,t be in favour of imprisonment for debt.

Ho:<i. T. J. O'SHEA: He had not vet heard any hon. gentleman draw a l;ne" of demarcation between tho,e who should be liable to imprisonment for debt and those who ,,hould not be liable. They were a!I agreed that imprisonm<>nt for debt w.t3 a bad principle, but they were also agreed that the non-pa;pnent of wages "\.Yas euch a serious matter that impriconment for that debt should still exist. Thcv wanted to draw a line of demarcation between debts which would still entail imprisonment and debts ;~.~hich would not. ·rhe Government had failed to do that, and he v, as making a11 attArnpt tn clo it as nearl•l r< he could on th,, linos upon which the Bill was drawn. It would bn ~n ab.~urdit1/ that a professional n1an o~· a contractor should be allowed to come under this Bill. and me for a d0bt and impri,on the defend<tnt 1f he did not pay the dGbt. The same remark would apply to an a~·ent, an ::uctionecr, :1nd a nun1br~r of other pcrs:onE-t~ He wao far from satisi1Pd with his arncond­ment, hnt he was JWrfocth· satisfiecl thilt a

b great dc,al of litig-ation \yould follow the passing of this Bill if some such anwndmrmt were not inserted. Ho trusted that hon. members would adopt the anwndmom.

Wages Bill. [22 AUGUST.] H ages Li'l. li:i37

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It must be admitted the hon. gentleman who had moved the amendment had given a good deal of study to this Bill last year and this year, and that he had moved many amend· ments in the Bill, but, if he might be per­mitted to say so, he would say that the amendment now proposed was the IY\Oc·t e bsurd amendment the hon. gentlcm>tn had tried to get ilhertecl in thc Bill. When the Biil v ''"" m Committee, they had a long rlis­CU'"',.,,ion on the definition of "'vorkor," and ]p tlPn eontc•ndod, as he st.i l1 cont·•nded, that it 1'fa ,, not nc:-c·"sarv to Uefine " v-rork" iu th" Bill. " \) ~ges" ,'VC' re clearly defined, " tr'lplo, n'' was c!Parly defim"l, and " worker'' was clearlv defined. Xow it was propo~ccl to amencl the definition of ~' 'vorl\._c1-, '' and he again contPnded that it vvas not nC't?C:3sary to define " work." Neither did the h,_,n, gentleman propose to define '' v;ork." but he twitted the Government with making no honc•t attc2npt to define it in the Bill. He (?!Ir. Jone') >Yas well 1ncaro that .. >YOrk " was <lefinHl in the X ew Zt :>­]and ~-\et. but he held that, in view of the fHct th:1t 'IUgt-"'; enlployer, and v:orker were- dr•!ined in this Bill, therr was no need t.o ddin<> '' >York" 'When he agreed not to oppo8 the' n•eomrnittal of the l3ill, he un.kr­stoocl th t the ho11. g0ntleman 'vantC'd to dcfilK ·• work" and to rlin1inate r,rofessional men frow 1 he operation of the B1ll. lf that ,vas hi~ ubjt'C'~, th0n it was his duty t0 define what ,· c a profession. The Government daim th-t it vas absm·d to sa, that medical ffiPll, la ~x_v-.:ors, an cl barrister an came nnflc~' the Bill, hut. if the hon. g<'ntlemall >Yi,hcd to 0xclnflf' profe~sional nH'll from the opera­ticn of th,"\ tn':'tRnrc. it ·was his dutv to dPfino "profe,,io!l." The pro] cy .. ;] no~-c wa 3 to nrm ul the definition of " >vorker." The Trea·nror had mbmitted to him an amend­m.ent hi rh. he und< rstood, was appr•lYed Df bv the Hon. :\Ir. O'Shea and tho Hon.

• :!\Ir .. Thy1me.

Hon. T. J. O'SIIE\: Nothing of the sort.

Tlw S.•:r'RETARY FOR l\II:\'ES: Well, that an1endt=1011t >\ J.j in print, rrnd it read--

" Tlw term dce·, not include-\fJ) A barrister, solieitor, convey­

ancer . .or kgnl practitioner, or a !C'gally qualified medical practitioner, or an authorised sur,~e;-·or, O!' a regjstered phannaceutical chemist, or a re5istPr?f!. dentiA, or a r ;,;i,tNed cptician. or a pn-llic an;:<lyst, or a veterinary surgeou, c•· a cnn:;ulHnp: engin0er. or an ar~hi­tcct, or a public :accountant, actuary, or auditor, or any other person re­tained or engaged' to render profC3-sional service•; requiring personal skiH, kno\Vl!)dge, and attQnt;on; or

lh) A per,on who contracts dire~tly with an employer for the performance r<f \York for him where the work com­prised in such contract is not performed solely by such controctor."

If hon. gentlemen were willin~ to agree to that compromise, he was willing to accept the aPwndrnent. The am0ndmcnt moved by the Hon. 111r. O'Shea inclur!ed an actuary. The Gov•,rnment were not opposed to thnt; but it also included a person who contracted directly with an employer. The part of the amendment which he particularly objected to on behalf of the Government was subclause (c)-"An auctioneer or agent," and subclause (d)-·' \ person em11loyed on wage:, at a rate exceeding three hundred pounds per annum."-

'rhe modified amendment which he .approved of and which the Treasurer approved of, w~uld have the effect of excluding a con-

siderable number of wage-earners [4 p. m.] from the protection afforded by

the Bill. :!\Iany wage-earners e1. rned £300 per year. There were a, great manv in th·· mining industry and m the meatworks who did. The only men at the present time who were on the low salary or wage of £300 a year were members of Parliament.

Hon. '1'. J. O'RuEA: You excluded profes· sioual men receiving over £300 from the right to go to the Arbitration Court.

The SECRET~\RY FOR MIXES: Not 110H~n. E. '\V. H. FovvLES: Yes, they exclude them.

Th•' SECRET\RY FOR ::YIIXES: Well, thev had a living wa<;e of £3LO. 'rhat w~s not" a parallel case. :!'.Iany men workmg m the mining inductry on contract .earned up to £1 a.nd £1 10s. per shift of eight hours. Even if thev did not work the full :ear, the yearlY salarv would be greater than :£300. I-[c ,:onsider0d it wi-e to allow the Bill to apply to all wage-earncl"'. \Yhy should they make a distinction Jx,tween wage-earners and pJ..larv¥C'arners _ Eyidently hon. gcntlen;-en desired to ,nake that distincti?n by monng an amendment making the Bill apply only to manual workers. In the first plac!'•. he stood for the definition as in the origmal Bill; and. secondly, if there were to be any compromise at all, he thoug:ht the amend­ment agreed to by the 111mster m charge of tb" 'Bill in the other Hou'c' should be inserted. He oppoeed the amcnd·nent pro­posed for the reaso<~ tha.t n1any \\'ag(.~-earne1:s eanwd more than £300 per year, _and that. It ~houlcl apply to all wag<J-earners, n:respective of the amount the:; cuned. He llOped the gc.od sense of the Committee would not allow them to c:1rr~· the amend mcnt.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHOH:\' \Vhat about ext -nclinc: the limit by another £100 i1 year 9

The SECRETARY FOR :!\![INE8.: It v ould ha.ve the effect of intcrfermg serwusly ,;·ith the Bill, which was a nee essary ll1CUSU1'C. The ~Iar;.t;;:.r;~ ol_nd Servants Act vya-s

quit., obsolete. B•·en as amend.ed by .that Com­mittee w far, they had a. Bill which would be acceptable to the Assembly and, he be­lieced, to a gr<Jat number of the [Wople. of Quecn,iand. If the amendmynt wer? c·Hn~d, it would be a eerious defect m the Bill, which probablY wight not then be 2.C8eptable to the A"·;mbly at all.

HoK. E. \V. H. FO\YLES sugg.er,te4 to the mm·er of th<J c-mendment that It l~I!)ht be better to insert it. under the. defimtwn c;f "wages," with a shght alteration to make 1t read- .

11 The term does not m.cludc recom-pense, reward~ rc;nuncrat1on, ~or con: sideration for services, work, or labour rendered or done, or to be rendered or done by"-the following classes of per­sons.

He thought the mover himself would rerent it if a.nvbodv said that he was not a. worker. EYcr\~ prOfes:::ional n1an was a worker.

HoK. T. J. O'SHEA: He accepted the suggestion made by the I-I on .. Mr. Fowles, and he thought it was an Impro.vcment. \Yith the permission o~ .the Committee he would withdraw the ongmal amendment.

Amendment, bv lea\·e, withdrawn. . Hon. T. J. O'Shea.]

1638 Land Tax Act, Etc.. Bill. [COUNCIL.] 1~1 eatwor ks B-ill.

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA moved the insertion on page 3, after line 9, of the following words:-

" The term does not include recom­pense, re\\-ard, ren1uneration, or con~ sideration for any service, work, or labour rendered or done, or to be ren­dered or done, by-

(a) A barrister, solicitor, convey­ancer, or legal practitioner, or a legally qualified medical practitioner, or an authorised surveyor, or a registered pharmaceutical chemist or a registered dentist, or a registered optician, or a public analyst, or a veterinary surgeon, or a consulting engineer, or an archi­tect, or a public accountant, actuary, or auditor, or any other person retained or engaged to render profe·-sional eer­vices requiring personal skill, know­ledge, and attention; or

(b) A pereon who contracts directlv with an employer for the performance of work not performed sole!~- 'by such person; or

(c) An auctioneer or agent; or (rl) A person employed on wages at

a rate exceeding three hundred pounds per annum."

. Question-That the words proposed to be !nserted (J1r. O'Shw's amendment) be so mserted-put; and the Committee divided:-

CoNTENTS, 13. Hon. A. A. Davey Hon. C. F. :;)farks

B. Fahey T . • T. O'Shea E. W. H. Fowles A. H. Parnell A. Gibson W. Stephens T. }[, Hall H. Turner A. G. 0. Hawthon , A. H. Whittingham P .• r. Leahy

Teller: Hon. A. H. Whittingham.

NoT-CoNTENTS, 7. Hon. W. H. Demaine Hon. T. Xovitt

.\ . . T. .Tones G. Page-Hanify H. C .• Tones R. Sumner H. L!ewelyn

Teller: Hon. G. Page-Hanify.

PAIRS.

OontPnts-ilfr. l!i!es, )fr. Xielmn, Mr. Dunn. and Mr. BrentnalL

Not-Oontents-}[r. Bedford, l!r. Cou~tiee, "fr. Purnell, and }[r. Riordan.

Rewlved in the affirmative, and amend­ment agreed to.

Clause 3, as further am.::nded, put and passed.

The Council resunwd. The CHAIR1IAl;' reported the Bill with a further amendment, and the report was adopted.

The third reading was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

LAND TAX ACT AME~D~1E)[T BILL.

MESSAGE FRO;II ASSEMBLY AGREEING TO FREE CONFERENCE.

The PRESIDE)[T announced the receipt from the AssPmbly of the following mes­sage:--

" Mr. President,-" The Legislative Assembly having had

under consi·deration the message of the Legislative Council of this dav's date requesting a free conference on the Land Tax Act Amendment Bill, beg now to intimate that they,-

[Hon. T. J. O'Shea.

"Agree to the proposal contained m the message.

" The Legislative Assembly appoint the Hon. T. J. Ryan and the Hon. E. G. Theodore to be the managers to represent them at such free c-onfE'rence, but name 2 o'clock on Thursday, the 22nd instant, to be the hour and day of meeting of such conference.

" W. McCOR1IACK, "Speaker.

"Legislative Assembly Chamber, Brisbane, 21st August, 1918."

STATE ENTERPRISES BILL.

FIRST READIXG.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, this Bill, received by mes,,age from the Assembly, was rectd a first time.

The second reading was made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

MEATWORKS BILL.

CO:I!MITTEE.

(Hon. lV. F. Taylor in the clwir.)

Clauses 1 to 4, both inclusive, put and passed.

On clause 5-"Appointment of contro/la"­

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the omission, 8Il lines 21 and 22, of the words "desirable in the public interest," with a view to inserting the words, " expedient for the purpose of the successful prosecution of the war." He. moved the amendment for two reasons. In the first place, the Govern­ment, in introducing the Bill. proclaimed it to be a "ar measure, and the amendment made the clause harmonise with their own proclamatiou. Secondly, the Bill professed to be pur,oly a war measure, and the phrase­oloo-y of the amendment corresponded exactly with the worC!s in the Imperial D<'fence of tlw Realm Act. He ditl not think they could have any better example to follow·.

The SECRETARY f?OR MINES Faid he was oppos0d to the amendment. 'VVhen the Bill was before the committee in 1916 a similar amendment was inen·ted, and objected b by the Assembly. The Bill was e,,:cntially a \V ar n1easuro.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: Then. why not accept the amendment?

The SECRETARY FOR MIKES : Chuse 2 Jlrovidt'd that the Act should " remain in force only during the continuance of the present war and during such further time thereaft<'r, not exceeding six months, as shall br, decle.rc-d. by proclamation." The Go,·ern· ment would ndminister the Art, and would be guided entirely by the interests of the war. The amendment was not at all neces­sarY, and he did not see how it could have the· least good effect. He hoped hen. mem­bers would allow the clause to remain as it stood.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The amend­ment will bring the clause into conformity with the phraseolog)' of the Act passed by the Mother of Parliaments, which \\'US ''0 much lauded by hon. members opposite the other day.

Amendment agreed to.

Meatw:Jrks Bill. [22 AUGUST.] Meatworks Bill. 1639

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the omis­sion, on line 32, of the words, " in priority" with a view to inserting the word " sub­ject." The clause, as it stand, would give the Crown the right to create charges on the property of the owner " in priority to existing charge,." Supposing one of the supporters of the Government had lent money upon a pastoral property six or seven years ago in good faith, would he not resent it as be.ing highly inequitable if the Crown should se1ze that property, as was proposed under the Bill, wreck the property-not deliberately, but by inadvertent mismanagement-and then proceed to place a blister on that property which would have priority over the money lent by him years before? Surely the Crown should be transparently just, and not seek, by some back door, to get in before all other creditors who had lent monev vcars pre­viously in g·ood faith. He thought it must have escaped the notice of the Government, an.d that they really did not intend to do a thmg like that, and he felt sure the Min­ister would be glad to accept the amendment.

Th<> SECRETARY FOR MINES: He would like to remind the hon. member. that this was a war measure, introduced in the interests of the public. The controller would be working in the public i1:terests, and therefore charges created by htm upon the pr?p~rty should. have, and must have, pnorJty.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: A charge on another man's property?

The SECRETARY FOR ::\IINES: That was somewhat of an exaggeration. The Act

would be administered in the [4.30 p.m.] interests of the public, and it

was admitted that it was a war mc;::sun• and C'J!Jld only remain in operation durmg the penod of the war and for six n;onths aftprwards.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: I do not think it is a \Var rnL~a;·,un•.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: If the hon. gent.leman di<l not want it to be a war mcacure. why did he not amend clause 2?

Hon. P. J. LE.\HY: That ·does not make it a ,,·ar measure.

Hon. T. J. O'SBEA: If I gave you a lease during that tr!•·m, wouJ.d it be a war lease?

Hon. P. J. LrAHY: "'The evil that men d·) remains aft-er then1."

Th SECHETARY FOR MINES: This mea~ure "·ould be wiped off the statute-book six Irwnths aftrr the terrnin"ttion of the war.

Hot·. 'T. ,J. O'SHEA: So would the lease I m_cntioned.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The !li!l "·tnld be a·dministcred in the public mterl'sb, and the controller should have that pmver. It was no ':lse introducing the Bill 1f they would not g·n·•c the Government full and em:npletc pO\VCl-:.

. \mcndment (Jir. Fou·/cs's) agreed to.

Clanse 5, as amended, put and paHed. On clause 6-" Power to r. g1tlate meat­

?cork.,:''-

Hox.. K \Y. H. FO\\'LES moved, as a consequential amendment, the insertion on line 52. after the \Yard "mav," of the words "if lw considers it expedient for the pur­pace of the successful prosecution of the war." That only put in black and white what was professe-d to be done.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He opposed the amendment. The hon. gentle­man had given very little argument as to why the amendment should be inserted, and, unless other hon. members had made a complete study of the Bill, they· would have to take the hon. gentleman's word that the amendment was a sound and wise one. 'I'he same objection applie-d to the first amend­ment moved by the hon. gentleman-that the Government were administering the me:1cure and must be guided solely by events that might happen.

Hon. E. W. H. FOWLES: That is all that it nieans.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The hon. gentleman wished to curtail the power of the administrating factor of this Act­that v. as, the Government.

Hon. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not for the pur­poses of the war-we expressly limit it to the purpooc3 of the war.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Surely the Government ,hould be competent to know what was in the interP<ts of the war!

Hon. R. SU'lNER : Are not the public int<:'rests in the interests of the war?

Hon. l'. J. LEAHY: Are not the interests of the war the public interests, too?

Hon. R. SU:I1:NER : Y cs, but it is the smaller item; the greater includes the less.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Would the hon. gentleman argue that it was the duty of the Government to supply the Aus­tralian soldiers who were fighting at the front with cheap meat, and not supply their dependEnts in Australia, or give them some opportunity of getting a reasonable supply? The tendency of the amendments circulatc:d was to curtail the power of the Government, and he hoped this amendment would not be carried. This was one of the most important Bill., that thev had had to deal with for some, time, and he did not like to sec such amendments carrie-d without some protest or division; but it seemed to him that hon. members opposite could carry anything, and sometime,; gave very little consideration to the effect their amendments would have on a Bill. He felt inclined to divide the Com­mittee on the whole of the amendments. Hon. members opposite, with their majority, could carry this and other amendments.

Hon. R. SuMNER: Not for long,

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It seeme-d to him that their arguments were not considered as they should be considered

Hon. T. J. O'Sm:A: That is not correct.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Hon. Mr. Fowlcs just jumped up and move-cl the lbmondmcnt without giving any explana­tion, knowing that h:• had a majority behind hin1 and wa~ going to c:nry it. The Govern­nlC <t sh mld be truotecl in a measure of this , han·:tl'r during the period of the w:l.r .

HoN. P. J. LEAIIY: The Minister had commented on the fact that verv little had been said in support of the amu].dment, ancl he seemed to convev the inference that hon. members had not tal{en the trouble to master the provisions of the Bill and the amend­ments. The reason there ha·d bc,en so, little discussion was because they thoroughly under- . stood the Bill and the purport and effect of the amendments.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: How many of you?

Hon. P. J. Leahy.]

164-0 11/Ieatwork,, Biil. [COu'NCIL.] 111 eatvxrks BiU.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He thought most of th0nL 'The Hon. Mr. Page-Hanify himself would understand them if he took long enough to do it.

HoN. R. SuM;-.;ER: Tell us what the object is.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: This was the third time the Bill had been before them. On each of the two previous occasions it was amended, and they were amending it now. The Minis­ter said it was a war measure. If so, why object to the words "for the purpose of the successful prosecution of the war''? It seem<!d to hirn that, notwithstanding the Minister's prote,tations-indee-d, he thought the hon. gentleman protested too much­this Bill must be ior oome other purpose besides the war. He thought the Minister showed the cloven hoof. The Bill was for something· else that might not be in the public interc;t,.. If this '·:as a war measure, there could be no po"ible objection to the inser­tion of thu proposed nmcndment. It was the Governor in Council-which meant the Minis­tors-who· had to d<~cide whether it was for the pro,ecution of the war or not.

'l'he SECRJ !'ARY FOR :MIKES: 'Then, why not le·no it to them:

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: If the words "for the purpose of the saccessful prosecution of the war" were put in, it was for the Governor in Council to determine whether a thing was necessan· for the succc,sful prosecution of the war or not, so that it did not undl.\ly limit the powers of the Governor in Council. If the Bill was really intended to help to win the war, so far from the amendment in any way preventing that object, it would help to bring it about.

HoN. ~\., .\. D~\ VEY: As had been pointed out b0 the last speaker, the Government meant the Governor in Council, "ho would decide whether it was expedient for the successful prosecution of the war. He did not think it made much difference whether the words were in or not ; but it confirmed the Minister's statement that this was a war measure, seeing that it was only for the duration of the war. He did not see any reasonable grounds for obj-ecting to the amendment. The Governor in Council had to interpret the clause, and the amendment stated clearly what the objects of the Bill were-" for the succe,sful prosecution of the war." The Ministers were to decide the matter. The measure was only to operate during the period of the war and six months thereafter, so that there was no serious ground for objecting to the amendment.

The SECRET~\.RY FOR MINES: With the amendment the clause would read-

" The Governor in Council may, if he con ciders it expedient for the purpose of the '"UU'es&ful proserution of the war."

In any case the V\ orcls vvcr';~ supcrfl uous. 'l'hcre was a dispo.ition on the part of hon. members opposit<' not to trust the Govern­ment. It might lea·d to litigation.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Have you considered the other words, "in the public interest"? 'They might open the door to liti~ration just the same.; there is no difference; the same objecti-on applies to the clause as it stands.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : Even more so. "The public interest" is a wider thing than "the prosecution of the war."

[Hon . .P. J. Leaky.

'The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It might encourage disputes. The words "in the public interest," which the Hon. Mr. Leahy mentioned. were not there.

Hon. P.· J. LEAHY: Thev occur in another par' of the Bill. '

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: But not in this particular clause, which was clear and definite, and gave the Governor in Council the neces,ary power-a wide power.

Hon. P . • J. LEAHY: \Ve gave the Governor in Council power to acquire sugar, and the Gover·nmcnt acquired cattle.

The bECRET.\RY FOR :'.IINES: He was not speaking about •.ugar.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: How can we have wnfidence ]n them after doing that ?

Tlw SECRETARY FOR l\IINES: That had nothinb to do with the Bill.

Hon. P .. f. LBHY: Y<:o, it has, because it is a qqestion ::ts to whether !Ye should give th!: GoYernn1eut \Yide po·h·crs or not.

Tlw SECRETARY FOR l\liKES: The CounC'il agrcP'1 to gi-rt' the Goycrnment the power tlw hon. gentleman referred to.

Hon. r. J. LE.\HY: I, for one, did all I could to preYcllt it.

The SECRETARY FOR ::\IIXES: They had the opportunity of refusing to g-ive the Gm-crnmcnt that power under that particular Bill.

Hon. P. J. LE.\HY: \Ye did not think they woulcl abuse it then.

The SECRET.\RY FOR MINES: Why 11 ec;1 ovPr spilt milk '! • The power had not been ue0d to the detriment of the public interests.

Hem. 'r .. J. O'SHEA: The Gowrnment did mor·c to wreck its reputation in that one act than in anything elf'f' it has eYer done.

The SF.CRETARY FOR J.VIIXES: 'I'he last election proved that its reputation was better than ePr. The people were only too anxious for another election, so that they could show renewed confidence in the Go­vernment. He thought the words were not necessary, and that they might lead to dis· ]mtes.

Question-That the words propo-ed to be inserted (:;fr. Pow/rs's arnend.nenf) be so inserted-put: ond the Committee divided:-

CoNTENTS, 12.

Hon. A. A. Davey B. Fahey E. \Y. H. Fow!es "\. Gibson T. M. Hall I' . .J. Leahy

Hon. C. F. }larks T. ,J. O'Shea "\. H. Parnell ·w. Steph·ens H. Turner \. H. \\hittingham

Teller: Hon. H. Turner.

i\OT·CONTENTS, 8.

Hon. \\". H. Crampton Hon. L. :llcDonald W. H. Demaine T. Xevitt \ . . T. Jones G. Page·Hanify

H. C. Jones H. Sumner Teller: Hon. L. }IcDonaJd·.

PAIRS.

Contents-Mr. :J.:Iiles, :J.ir. Xiel'10ll, Mr. Dunn, ~Ir. Brentnall, and :J.Ir. Hawthorn.

Xot·Oontents-:J.fr. Bedford, )fr. Courtice, :lir. Purnell, c.Ir. Biordan, and }fr. Llewelyn.

H<'solvcd in the affirmative, and amend· ment agreed to.

HoN. E. \V. H. FOWLES m01·ed, as a consequential amendment, the omission of

Jfeatwo1·ks Bill. [22 AUGUST.) J11eatworks Bill. 1641

the words "in the public interest " on line '9, with a view to inserting t),e wo;ds " if he ~onsiders it exp8dient for -the purpose of the successful prosecution of the war."

The SECRETARY FOR :MIJ'\ES: This anv~ndment was consequential on the amendment already agreed to, and the same argument applied to it. Ho was opposed to the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Ho;,;. E. W H. FOWLES mo·;0d-That the words "in the public interest," on li!Jes 22 and 23, be omitted, with a view to insert­ing the '·' ocds "for the purpo8e of the suc­cessful pros€cution of the war."

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, put and pa,ccd. Clause 7-'' Po1r!r to acquire m eatzrorhs

undr:r c, ,' tain circum,stances ''-

. Hox. E. IY. H. FOWLBS : The clause, as 1t •tood. g.,ve the Government nower to acquire rneat"orks. The amond·n~;Hs which he proposed to make in the clause would give the Government power to use meat­w'?rks to produce any quantity of meat that m1g.ht hJ required to a>sist the Imperial Governme>nt durmg the v ar. That '.Yes the po~,, er which was dven to the Governmr nt in Aincriut, \Yhcre ..... the O\\ ners of Ine,l,hvo!·ks plnced their >vorks at the ciiopos~l of the Govemmont for the furth(rance of their effort~ to win the war. The Imperial Go­vernm0nt did not want meatworks and the Imperial troops did not want me~tworks­thc:: >v;,nted me::tt. His amendments would give thc,n meat-not mentworks. He moved the omi,sion, on line, 21 to 28 of the ''7ords~ '

'' i' ntisfied that the owner of any meat­works ha_s. failed to comply with an~· of th0 proYif'Ions of any proclamation, vnd that such failure of compliance is con· trary to the public interest, of which facts he ohall be the sole judge"-

with a Yiew to inserting the 1Yords-,, con,iders it expedient for the pcll'rose of the succ0c;sful prosecution of the war that the 'ole right of using any meat­,~-vrkt' nnd of carrying on th0 business thereof during the continuance of the war <hould be vested in His Majesty."

The SECHETARY FOR :JH:"i'ES: The :_llnencln1(·nt ·~.ought to d~!prive tho G-overn­ment of a power that was wost Yital and that 1Yould lw required in a measure of this eort. The Government wanh•d power to take meatworks, if the owner refused to obey an order and endeavoured tc' ob.;truct national and Imperial intcrec.ts.

Hon. E. \V. H. FoWLh: \Yhat owner in Queensland would dream of denying the trOOl-'~ lll(-, 1.t?

The SECRE'l'ARY FOR MINES : If no owner "~ould do that, th-ey should leave the Bill a· it v:as. The Government did not propose• to touch work" if the 0'.\'ner was reasonable.

Hon. T. :u. HALL: \Vhat would you call reasomtbl(•?

Hon. E. \V H FowLES: Supposing you wanted meat for the State butchc'rs' shon~ at 3d. per lb., would that he reasonable? ·

The SECRETARY FOR 2\II:"i'ES: If the Goven1ment wanted me<1t for tbc Scate butch~rs' shops ir. the int0rests of the public,

or if they wanted meat for the purpose of carrying on thP war, that would

[5 p.m.] be reasonable. The same clause was in the Requisition of Ships

Bill last year. -He -did not, at that time, think it would be used.

Hon. 'r. J. O'SHEA: Did not vou com­mandeer bullo~ks, and call them eu';,-ar?

The SECHETAHY FOR :\1I:"i'ES: They ~ould only acquire ships if the owner refused to do cor' a in things. It wa:; pecessary to hav.· the power to do it. It was just as n.ec•,ar"~ to haYe the power under this Bill. The Hnn. Mr. Fowles would allow the Go,-ernor in Council, if he thought it ex­pedient, to take oyer, control, and use meat­works. They h :td sufficient power in that dirc~tion bv virtue of clauses 5 and 6 of this Bill. The prm·ision was very nc .. 'ssary, and the ,cJnc·w1nwnt sought to dutroy it. He

\>""11 ,, ntrc' that the mme amendment v.~a, moYed +wo years ago. He thought it would be admittr,d 'there was no use intro­,]ncing a Bill of that mrt unless the Govern­m:nt had almost complete power. There >vae no good in haYing a half-hearted sort of Bill which would lead to litigation anrl would not give the Government euf!iciem po"'·er, whil0 giying- thenr some power. He hop·' d the Committee '';ould not ir,sist on tl~e an10ndrncnt. Thev l:::new yerv w._,~l it was 'lot a ceptabln ' to the LcgislatiYe AssPmbl;~·, and th,• Bill wculd on]_,. co;~1P back for furthPr consideration. He intended to divide the Committee upon it. Ho~. B. Ji' \HEY: As the :/.!ini.ter had

said he ,,_," going to divide the Committee on that clause, he v:as going to ju•tify the yote he would give. Sincu the Bill had come before the Committee• the hon. gentleman had not told them why the GoYernment were going into this enterprise.

The SECRETARY FOR MlliES: I did. on the second reading.

Ho;;-. B. F AHEY: He did not hear the hon. gentleman. He would like to know why tho Goyernment were entering upon this enterprise. Could the hon. gentleman tell them?

Hon. E. IY. H. FoWLES: To win the war. HoN. B. F AHRY: What had the Govern­

ment of this State to do >Yith winning the war., The powcrs in that direction were in the hand• 0f the Feclcrl11 Government, who are doini! it in the interc·ts of the public and in the interc,ts of the war authorities much better than could the Queensland Go· , ernment. If the Government said they were going to do this in the interests of the war, whv should thev br allowed to interfere with an ~industrv tha't had been "'Lrried on success­fullv in the interests of the public and in the' inh rests of the war, a.nd in a m.anner ,-,~hirh was a great deal better than that by which the Gov0rnment could have carried it on'?

The SEcRETARY FOR MINES: Has not the Ji'e.dcral Gm·emrnent failed in regard to the price of beef?

Box. B. FA HEY: Had those engage,d in this industrv failed in their dutv to the war or to the country in any way?, Could hon. gentlemen opposite show where there had br·Pn a lack of energy, enterpri~,e~ or patriotism on the part of t.hose people?

Hon. E. IV. H. FowLES: This Go.-ermncnt could not help them from their catt:e stations.

Hon. B. Fahey.]

1642 Meatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] 1l!l eatwo1·ks Bill.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: They are the most noted failure of the century.

HoN. B. F AHEY: 'fhe fact of the matter was that the Government desired to get every industry in this country into their own hands and under their control, and to have the whole of th·J employees of Queensland i a their senicc. It was time the people of Queensland a woke to that fact and pre­vented anything of the kind being done. It was socialism run mad. The war as being well fought out. Australia had very fairly done its part, and the people of Queensland had no right to be a•-hamed of what they were doing towards winning the war. \Vhatever was to be done in the matter of acquiring indtbtrics in this country, with a view to giving an i1npetus to their af:si~.­tance to the ImperiaJ Uo,ernment to carry on the war, wa , entirely confined to the province of the Federal authorities. He a3 going to support the amendment.

HoN. T. NEVITT: . He thought hon. gentlemen on the> oth.:r side were overlook­ing the fact that that clause would not be put into operation until the proprietors or owners of the meahvorks had done some­thing againct th0 public interest or the suc­cessful pros•·cution of the war.

Hon. A. H. WHITTINGHA:II: Who will decide iha t?

Ho::-r. T. XEVITT: The .Ministvr in cloarge of the admini,tration of the Act.

Hon. A. H. WRITTIC\"GHAlii : Ho is to be the sole judge?

HoN. T. KEVI1'T: H the Governor in Council did anything that was contrary to fair and honr-,.t play, >Yore there not means of- getting at them?

Hon. A. H. \VHITT]}lGHA:II: No, no means at all.

HoN. T. NEVITT: If the Trades Hall told them to collar anything, they would not •do so unless there was some absolnto reason for its being tnkC'n OYL'r. In thi-, case it was for the public intcre-t, and, if the Governor in CouJJci! wore not in a po-i­tion to de~ick wlLct was in the p:.~b:ic in­terest. he di-d n0t know who would he able to judge. If they did an inju,tico to any­bcdy, there >Ya.__ a t'1Eflll3 of dealing with them. Had hon. gPntlcmen ever known the Governrncnt to do auy injustice to any­body?

Hon. E. \Y. H. FoWLE~: \Vas there anv Imperial reason for commandeering JI.Ir·;. Duncan's cattle?

HoN. T. KEVITT: Was not that case suh judice at the present time?

Hon. E'. W. H. FOWLES: J'\o. Hon. P. J. Ll'l.HY: The1· committod an­

other injustic •.•. They tried to abolish th!S Council. (Laughter.)

HoN. T. Nl~VITT: In that case the people had to decide; and there wa" no brtter authority to decide whether that Chamber shoul-d exist or not than the majority of the people. (Hear, hear!) But hon. gcntl<>men on the other side were afraid to tru,:t the people.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You would not trmt them oyer the recall last night.

HoN. T. NE\ITT: That was not the qu0<tion with which ihey were now de.aling. (Laughter.) He maint:tincd that hon. gentle­men oppo,itA wPrc overlooking the fact that

[I!on. B. Fahey

the clause would not be operative until the owners of tho meatworks had committed so1ne misdemeanour.

Que,tion-T'hat the words proposed to be omitted (,}Jr. Fotcles's amendment) stand part of the cla.use-put; and the Committee divided:-

CONTENTS, 9. Hon. W. R. Crampton Hon. T. ~evitt

W. H. Demaine G. Page-Hanify .'I .• r. J ones I. Perel H. C . . Tones H. Sumner L. :lfcDonald

Teller: Hon. I. Perel.

:X OT~CoNTENTS, 12.

Hon .. \. A. Davey Hon. 0. F. i\Iarks B. Fahey T. J. O'tihca K W. H. Fowles A. H. Parne!l A. Gibson W. Stcphens T. ilL Hall H. Turner 1' . • T. Lcahy A. H. Whittingham

Teller: Hon. W. Stephens.

PAIRS.

Contents-}fr. Bedford, Mr. Courtice, :\fr. Purnell, :Ur. Riordan, and Mr. Lle'lelyn. Not~Contents-Mr. Miles, l\Ir. Nidson, )fr. Dunn,.

Mr. Brentnall, and Mr. Hawthorn.

Re·-,olve·d in the negative, and amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: As a conse. quential amendment, he moved the omission, Oil lineB 3+ and 35, of the words, '' meat­works of such owner in Queensland," with a view to inserting the words, " sole right of using such meatworks."

Question-That the words proposed to be omitted Dlr. Fozrles's amendmu1t) stand part of the clause-put and negatived.

Question-That the 'vords proposed to be inserted (Mr. Fo1clcs's amendment) b<J so in­sorted-put; and the Committee divided:-

CONTENTS, 12.

Hon. A. ~\. Davey Hon. C. F. Marks B. Fa hey T .• r. 0' t'hea E. W. H. Fowles .\. H. l'arnell A. Gibson W. Stephens T. M. Hall H. Turner P. J. Leahy .L H. >Yhittingham

Teller: Hon. T .• r. 0'8hca.

NoT-CONTENTS, 9.

Hon. iY. H. Crampton Hon. T. ;'\evitt W. H. Demaine G. Page-Hanify .\. ,T. .Tones I. Perel H. C .. Tones R. f:'umner L. McDonald

Teller: Hon. T. Nevitt.

PAIR9.

Contents-Mr. Miles, :Sir. ::\ielson, ::Ur. Dunn,_ }lr. Brentnall, and J\Ir. Hawthorn.

Xot~Contents-2\Ir. Bedford, :Mr. Courtice, Mr. Purnell, }fr. Riordan, and Mr. Llewelyn.

Rcsolwd in the affi.rmatiYe, and amend­ment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES : As a further cor,·;.equen;tial amendment he moved the omission, on line 37, of the words "such owner," ··.ith a view to inserting the words " the owner thereof."

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved the omis­si_on, on li':'e 41,_ of thr· word " ~;-~.'',with a v1ew to msertmg the word IS. The

lkleatworks Bill. [22 AUGUSJ'.] M eatwor ks Bill. 1643

amendment was consequential on the amend­ments already made in the clause.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: He should have moved the insertion of the words, ·' and of carrying on the business of such meatworks during the continuance of the war," before the word " is" just inserted; but the sam~ object could be achieved in another way. He move·d the insertion, after the word " ie" in the previous amendment, of the worde " together with the carrying on of the business of such meatworks during the continnance of the war."

HoN. G. P AGE-HAKIFY: What about the six months after the war that the Bill provides for?

Hox. K \V. H. FOWLES: The whole Bill dealt with the poriod of the war and six months thercoafter, and that covered every­thing.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. E. "'\'{ H. FOWLES moved the omis-sion. on lines 44 to 50, of the words-

" all property m~ntioned or referred to therein shall cease to be the pi'Oj1erty of such owner, and sh 1Jl lH~con1o and. renLdn the absolute property of His :\faj,•··.ty, freed from any mortgage, charge, lien, or other encumbrance thereoe1 whatw­£Ver; and the late owner''·-

with a view to inserting the words ''the owner."

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : This wa3 a very important amend111ent, although h: admitted that the r>arrving of the pre· v1ous amendment inyo!vc:l this one. The Dill ae it f'l1lan'!ted from the Assc>mbl,- nro-vided that- , '

"Forthwith, upon the publi, ation of <mch proclamation, all prop< rtv men­tioned or referred to therein eh;;!! cc use to be the pro;1erty of sucl1 owner, ond shall lwcome and n•main the ah:olute property of His JVfa.ie,~ty, freed fron1 nny n1ort~ ag < • r harf:~e. li0n. or othC'r c11r unl-brawc !hereon whahoen•r; and the ]at<> O\Yner."

It wa' propo ed to delete those words. Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: It is pur<'ly cor•se­

quential.

The SECRETARY FOR :YH:-.TES: AP he had said, the carr,·ing of the prcYic us amend­ment somewhat involved this amr·ndment; but, if they left these words in here the position would not be quite so bad. ' The whole prin<'iple of the BiJI was to give the Go',·:'rnment powe: to take over and control mcatworks, if the ownns of the r.1eahvorks failed to do r m·tain things.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: You want the :•ower to use them.

The SECRETARY FOR }1I:'\ES : They wanted the power to use t'wm free from any encun1brance. He \Vas using arg:umcnts which would apply to th0 othr•r clauses which had been canied lw the CounciL He again improssocl upon the Council that the Gov8rnmont had no intention of t:,1•ing over unv works. if the own~rs complied with cer· tai·n conditions and did certain thiE;:,~;.

Hon. 'I.'. ::'\1. HALL: But vou do not ···.1V \vhat \ J:c._. arf'. If You insisted that thev should l0t you have· nF·nt rrt le!. pPr lb:, would that be comistent?

The SECRETARY FOR MTNES: He did not think the.t 3.ny sane Government would impose that condition.

Hon. T. M. HALL: They have the power­to do it.

The SECRETARY FOR MI.:ms: They would not do it. Tht; Government hrrd power to do a lot d things. Probably they had power to have t!w hon. gentleman or .himself arrested, or anyone else.

Hon. T. M. HALL: ~ot Lmles8 I Inn: com­mitted ·an offence.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: '.rhe Government had wide .1owers now that thPy· ciid not use, and wou!C! not use. The days wh0n meat wa.s ld. per lb. in Australia had long since passed. The hon. g·entleman who interjected used the- argument that Lhe Government wore not concerned about the 'var-that it wa.:: the concr~rn of the Federal Government The Federal Government had failed to do tlwir duty regarding the meat question.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: That is neither true nor proper.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: ·were the Fed,•ral Government, or any other Go­vernment, beyond criticism?

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Xo Goverwnent is, so long as it is trne eriticism.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: AccGrd­ing to the hon. gentleman's ideu of what was proper and not proper, Gc.v~rnment supporters should not OJ,Cn their mouths in that Chamber.

Hon. H. TuRXER: Hav~ the 'Government had anv rea,son for supposing that any owners of meatworks would refuse to do a· fair thing?

Hon. T. M. HALL: They might refuse to· ~ell meat at 2d. per lb

The> SECRETARY FOR MIN.ES: Ho thmwht thev 1rould refuse to sell meat at 2·d. 1;e~ lb. <Tho Government would not usk them to .. ell meat n.t 2d. per lb.

Hem P. J. LEAHY: Yon. are getting it for a little over 3d. p2r lb. now.

The SBCRETARY FOR MI.i'\ES: As he said in conncdion 1vith the Sugar Acquisi­tion Act. the occasion might never arise, but thP Govt'rnnlrnt rrr116t lrn~e rertaiu po\Ycrs~ Nobodv obj<>cted to the wide po"·e1·s which the Fe,df'l'ai GoYernment had under the \Var· Pre."autions Act.

Hon. T. J. U'SHEA: That is a ;c]ifftrent matter.

The SECRETARY FOR ::.\U:-.T1'S: No. Queensland was in the happy pos!tio'!. of not being short of nwcct and of hav1!1g 1t at a fairlv reaqmable pncc; but the otlvcr States, through the bungling of th<> authorities, had been short of meat, and had to J?ay most unreasonable prices. That v, as evdence 'of the competency of the p··:esent Government.

Hon. P. J. LE.\HY: 'rhe Southern State& havP not the cattle supplies we hnvC'. They have more population and less <'ct!le.

The SECRETARY FOR MI~ES: 'I hey had probablv less cattle, but more she~p, and vet the ·people were on the verge of a rnret'- famine.

Hon. P .. J. LF.ARY: It wa' '' lwd f:l:ninP.

The SECEETAEY FOR MIXTI:S: He \'ras a n-rf'at bclicYPr in a :\atiJnal nart~~. and tho~rrht that in ,·,-ar timP·; 1chey chmdd' have a f:Frong ~ationn.l Gov~.)rl1n1vnt in the·

Hon. A. J. Jones.J

1644 Jl,Jeatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] Meatworks Bill.

.interests of the peopk which could step in when there "-as a sugar fn1nine in tlH! South, ~nd t-ugar '\Vas lying rotting- on the ,.vh,n:vcs m Macka", and do thine;&; but the G<'Yern­ment "-ho had that author1tv failed in tlteir duty. ·

Hon. \V. ST!1PHEXS: That i" only a m:,_Her nf opinion.

The SECRETARY FOrt Mil\'E.S: !Ie hopf'd that the Committee would r:ot insist on the amendment. H appea1·ed t•J him that the only way to get a l'ea~onable aty,endnwnt carried y-as to talk at great length, and sit until 8 or 8 o'clock in the evening, ~~o that they could havo a 'TI!ljorit_v of cnerg·ctic men who would stay behind. ILaugHer )

Question-That the words pror,o-<>d to he omitted (Jfr. Pocelc,'s a,n.f'ndwenl) sh·nd part of the danse-put: c.nd the Co,nmittee

COXTEXT.-:, 8. lion. \r. H. Demuinc lion. T. Xevitt

A .• T. Jones G. Page-Hanify H. C .• Tones I. Perel L. :J.ic Donald H. Pumner

Teller: Hon. G. Page-HanifY.

'Hon .• ~ .. \. Davey B. Falwv

Hon. C. F. Marks

E. W. Ii:. Fowle3 A. Gibson T. M. Hall

T .. T. O'Sirca A. H. l'arndl W. >'tephens H. Turnc:r

P . • T. Leahy Telln: Hon.

.1. H. Whittingham A. H. Parnell.

PAIRS.

Contents-Mr. Bedford, Mr. Courtice, Yfr. Purnell, 1\lr. Riordan, and }Ir. Lle,velyn.

Xot-Contr:nts--:Jfr. )IilC's, ::\Ir. Xielson, Mr. Dunn, 1\fr. Bl\ __ ntnall, and Mr. Hawthorn.

Hesoh-ed in th~ nr;;ativc. Qnc'-i ion-That the words propo• oc] to be

in''·rrtcd (Jir. Fau-lt-s's ant( nrlmcnt) be so inserted-put and passe,J.

Ho:-;. E \Y. H. F(Y\VLES moved tho omis­~~iolL on line 2 to 6, on lHlg·o 5, of the \Vord'·-

"And all th, tit!~ ~nd propGl·ty of the late ow"'er therein shall 'oo changed into a right to rc.-.,inc pa·.ment for the value theri of in tlh' n•enn0r and to the extent provided by this Act."

Amendment agl'eccl to.

HoN. P. J. LE.H-IY moved-That snh­clau•e 5 and the last para<:;raph of the clause ~e on:itted, with a view to inserting the tGll0\.1116' 110\V ~·~Ub\.--.lflth'~:-

" lv.) All r•uch propertv shall be acqujrotl on just terrns. and the o~rner of nch propcrtv eh all ho cnti tled to be paid, in respect of the exorcise by His i\T aj• ~t:· of the po,;er, conferred upon him by this "~·ctio11, such rf~asonable amoln~t as n1ay be ncf'e-ssary to con1pon­,atn hrm for am lo"i or damage sufferer! thel'ceby. In computing such compcn"a­tion. clur· allo,vance ~hall be made for an:-;- lo-,s or injurv clue to disturbance of any businesP of sl1ch o-., n0r. whether car~ ried on in Quepnsland or, t)lscnvhcre, or to severance of any property.

''The amount of such compen<:;ation shall be determined by the Land ~\ppeal Court constitutt•cl. a' pro·cided by the LanJ Acf of J 910; an cl for the purposes of sn-h determination the Land Appeal Court sh ll have all the jurisdiction, powel'. and authoritv in the last­menrioned Act and a1n: rules thereunder provided. ·

fJion. A. J. Jones.

"Any party dissatisfied with the deter­mination of the Land Appeal Court may, within twenty-one days thereafter, appeal to the Suprem<e Court from such dot<>r­mination. Such appeal shall be in the• nature of a rehearing, and shall be heard and determined by one Jndge of the Supreme Court sitting without a jnrv, \Yhose decision, subject a"~ heroin­aft~r nrovided, ehall b-e final and con­clusi';·e~

"On the hearing of such appeal, such judge, 5hall hctve all the [•OWers o.f the Land Appeal Court. and may, If lw thinks fit refer by way of special caso an": point' of la vv ari '- ing on tho ~lea ring of 'such appeal to the Full Court for its opinion. The Full Court shall thereupon hear and determine the questions of law rai-;ed bv such special ca"e, and sh1.ll remit the m11tter to such judge >Yith an ""l"'c·,;ion of its opmion thereon, and

makf' any order it .thinks proper as to costs of .m eh spco1 a! case.

'· Suhject as aforesaid, the costs of any such api1eal ,hall be in the discretion of tht) judge hearing SULh appeal."

Having read the amendment in full, it would be evident to hon. gentlemen that it ",,., an eminently just proposal. Briefly put, the amendment meant that these proper­ties should be acquired on just .terms.~ ,In nC'arlv all the Stat<•s of the Amcncan Umon where thcv had Governments which re· pccted the right's of PJ'Opcrty as much as the Governments in Australia did, if not more, those Governments were prevented by the Constitution from taking any property from companies or indivHlnals, eXCl•pt on just te. me. He did not think he n<Jed c.1:· any­thin£:" more to commend the amendr,;ent to the Commiitee.

The RECRETAHY FOR J\IIc-JES: The tprm, of the Bill provided a ~·cry fair \Yay ef arriYiJ<g at the amount which was to be paid to the owner of any m': at,_;.-orks in the <~vent of •uch meatworks hcmg taken over bv the Govcrnmr nt. The snbclause which the HoL. Mr. Lcahy proposed to omit read-

" (r.) The amount which the late owner of mch property shall be entitled to be paid upon the acquisition thereof under this section shall be such sum as-

(a) In the case of land, buildings, phnt. and equipment, represents the actual value thereof without making any a1lovvanC'c for corn.pulsory pur~ ch;sc, or special adaptabilit:"- to the laf-c O"\vner's busjness, or for disturb~ RJlC'L\ -,,ever a nee, or goodvviJl;

(b) In the case of stock, meat, stock-. in trade. or other goods and chattels, l'CJH'escnh the actual market .value thereof at the place of dehvery, v·1thout making anv allowance for compulsory pln'(hasc, ~or disturbance, or good· ''"ill;"

\Vas then• anv unfairness in that? Then the cl a u e furthm: said-

" And such value shall be determined hv the Land Appeal Court constituted as provided h,. the Land Act of 1910; and for the ptn·po ,es of such determina­tion the Land Appeal Court '"hall have all the jurisdiction, power, and authority in th • last-menticncd Act and any rules thereunder provided; and such deter­mination ,<hall be final and without appeal."

11Ieatworks B;zz, (22 AUGUST.] Jieatworks Bill 1645·

The Government could not take over any­thing and determine its value as they thought fit but the value had to be Jetermined by th~ Land Appeal Court. The last _par~­graph in the clause-a paragraph wh1ch 1t was now proposed to omit-read as follows :-

" In determining such value the Lanc1 Appeal Court shall deduct from ohe amount of any value which would other­wise be payable to the late owner of the property concerned any expenses what· soever which the Minister has incurred by reason of any failure by the late owner or anY officer, agent, or servant of the late owner to give possescion or delivery of such property as and when directed by any proclamation, or to obse1·ve or otherwise comply with a110 order or direction in any proclamation with respect thereto."

He Lhought that was quite sufficient. Hon. P. J. LEAHY: It is not nealy as

good as my amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR l.VliXES: It covered everything. He should like to know where the hon. gentleman got his amend­ment.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: I told you the ongm of "just terms." My amendment is much clearer and fairer than the provision you have just r0ad to the Committee.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Did tht hon. gcmtleman infer that anything would be done except on just terms ? How could the, Government take over meatworks on unjust terms with such a provision ac, that which he had read in the Bill? Tinder another Act of Parliament the Government could resumo land when it was in the public interest to do 'O, though the hon. gentleman wished to conveY to the Council the idea that the Government had no power to deal with the hacred righh of property.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: I did not say th;;t.

The SECRETARY FOR :YliKES: The Government should have power to c0mpel person~ engaged in any industrie;;; to run those indhstries in the interests of the public, and all the Government sought in this meacure was 'JOWcr to take over mcat­v:orks in the publlc interest when it as necessary to do so. and he could not s<·e <lilY

objection to such a proposal. He was opposed to the amendment, and hoped it would not be carried. The Bill, as at pre­sent framed, provided a fair way of arriving at the amount which had to be paid by way of compensation. Although the Hon. ::\fr. Leahy's amendment might be more generous to the owner--

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: It is fairer.

The SECRETARY FOR MI).JES: Xo works would be t:1kcn oyer unless under special circumstances, the circumshmcee be.ino- that the owner had refused to comply withothe present law, or with the Bill \Yhcn it became a law. While "just terms" was provided, it was only right that there should be some kind of penalty. and that was that nothing ohould be paid for goodwill.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: There is a pen;dty clause later on.

The SECRETARY FOR MINRS: Noth­ing should be paid for the goodwill of_ a business if the owner refused to co·nply Wl th the· conditions laid down in the Act. No doubt, hon. gentlemen would <:!arry the i.

amendment, as they usually di,d, bc·Dause· thev had a majority there to do it; but "n;ight" was not always "right."

Hon. P. .J. LEAHY : I am not basing my argument on that at all; I am busing it on right.

The SECRETc\RY FOR MINES: The amendment practically defeated Hle whole object of the Biil. It was nc>t as t>ough th.~ Governm-:nt v.-antt-d pcnvcr to take over all works. It wa> only in special circumstance& that works would be taken over. He hoped the f'ommittee would insist on the clause as. framed, and reject the amendment.

Hon. \Y. STEPHEXS: It is a consequer,tia!. amendment now.

The SECRETARY FOR MI:\'ES: That did not matter; they did not want it in thB' Bill.

HoCi. P. J. LEAHY: He was sure that, if the Committee deci·ded to carry his amendment. they would not d•J so b.,cause his side had a majority, but because of the fairncv., of t,hc amendment. If thev did not 1·ote 1\ ith him on account of th2 f;,irneh> of the amendment, he did not want them to vote for it at all.

Hon. R BEDFORD : As a matter of fact, the works will not be acquired unless the people stand up against the la11.

HoN. p, J. LEAHY: There was ample pm\ er under the Bill to take t.he wm·kc if they required them for the successful prose­cution of the w;n. That very simple amend­ment provided that the works should be taken on fair terms.

'Hon. R. BEDFORD: Doe' tbat include good­will?

Has. P. .T. LEAHY: He put it to the Hon. Mr. Bedford, supposing he was carry­ing on any kind of a luc,·ative business, and the Government stepped in and said, "We ar~ going to take your business." 1vould he consider it a fair thing to dislocate his busi­ness, lose his connection, and pay him only for the plant that was on the place? That would not be enough. \Vhatever a man lost in consequence of the action of the Govern­ment, he should be fairly paid for. wiwther it was in the nature of implements, machi­nery, goodwill, or anything else.

Hon. R BEDFORD: He wi;] not lose ;_t at all if he does what he is told.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: It depended on what he was told. Sllppoeing he was told that he must give a c~rtain quantity o[ rr1eat at 2d. per lb., and, if he did not do it, that they wcr<' g-oing t<;> tal.<e over his works. \Vould that be a fan· thmg?

Hon. R. BEDFORD: It is a very unfair a.rgument, because that is not likely tu be done, and you know it.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: There was not much difference hetween 2d. and 3~d. per lb.

The SrCRETARY FOR :MrKES: Only about 60 per cPnt.

HoN. P. J. LE"\HY: They knew per­fectlv well that the me"tworks were corn· pel!C:d to giye meat to thr~ Government below its proper v<:lue-at, l~d pe~· lb. les; than was being pa1d by tho Impt'nal GoverJJment for war purpose;;.

An HoNOURAJlLE ME)fBER : In the interests of the war.

Hon. P. J. Leahy-1

1646 Meatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] lVleatw01·ks Bill.

HoN. P. ,T. LEAHY: The Government might turn round and say it was in the -interests of the war that they should give meat at 2d. per lb. There was no roo~son why one parti~ular class of individuals <;hould be singled out for Ioss<c". If there were any loss in eonnection with the w<>r, it should be borne by the whole community and not by anv individual.

Hon. R.' BEiFoRn: The pastora!ist should ·always get the profits. ·

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He was not a pas· 1oralist, and h>1d nothing to do with pas­toralists, he was sorrv to sa v. Even the p<>storalist was entitleci to justice.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : \Vho says h<' is not?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: They wantnd to >Compel him to -do <lnything they liked, and, if he did not comply with all their df'mands, no matter how unreaS'mable they might be, they were going to take away hi~ business without giving him adequate compens<ltion. That was not a fair thing. His amendment was fair, and he hopc'd it would commend itself to the good sen~'l of the CommiUec.

HoN. ']'. NEVITT: The Hon. Mr. L<'ahy said that the amendment practicaily meant <mly "just terms."

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Giving effeet to just terms.

HoN. T. NEVITT: He thought it went a little beyond that. In the first place, that dause w<>s not operative until the pro­priet<Jrs of the meatworks ha·d done some­thing w.hich would pr•went the Government carrying on the busin~ess in the best manner poscible for the purpose of providing the Imperial Government with mertt io enable them to carry on the war.

Hon. 1'. J. LEAHY: How have the Imperial Government got on for four years?

HoN. T. NEVIT'r: This was the third time this Bill had been before the Chamber. 'rhe hon. gentleman had the same regard for the Imperial Government three yeus ago that he had· to-day.

Hon. E. W. H. FoWLEil: The Imperial Government are living on in the hopes of this Bill passing. (Laughter.)

HoN. T. NEVI'l'T : Before the GovNn­ment took possession of works, the proprie­tors must hav<' done something to--

Hon. W. STEPHENS : Annoy the Govern­ment.

Ho~;. T. ::--;EVITT: To prevent the Go­vernment curying on the business cf the country in the best. manner.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: They must have refused a reqn<''~· made by the Governm<:'nt, no matter how unreasonable it might be.

HoN. T. NEVITT: If the Bill bee~me law, and a man broke the law, th" hon. gentkman, according to his amendment, wanted to pay him for goodwill for taking over his establishment.

Hon. W. STEPHENS: That is all bunkum.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You assume that the Bill is already law. The Bill will become law after we have put our ideas into it.

HoN. T. NEVITT: 'After hon. members have ruined it, the same as they had done on previous occa&ions. The hon. gentleman was not prepared to trust the Land Conrt. Any dispute between landowners and the

[Hon. P. J. Leahy.

Government went to the Land Court, but the hon. member's amendment provided for art appeal to a judge of the Supreme Court.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Why not;? Ho:-;. 'I'. ~EVITT: The hon. gent!Pman a

while ago stated that his amendment did not go beyond the words " just terms."

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: That is all it does. Hox. T. NEVITT: It was carrying it as

far as the hon. gentleman could carry it. Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: He could carry it to

the Privy Council, and still be on just tPrms.

HoK. 'I'. NEVITT : The Land Court was ,ufficient to decide more important questions than thi', and yet they would not trust it in this.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: What are the more important questions?

Hon. H. BEDFORD: It does not matter. They will climb down after September.

Hox. T. NEVITT: His contention was that, under the clause as framed in the Bill, no proprietor of meatworks would get any injustice dealt out to him, without the amendm<:'nt of the hon. gentleman.

HoN. \V. STEPHENS: He would not trust this Governn;ent to take anything from anybodY. He happened to be chairman of a co-operative bntter factory. The Govern­ment were making butter at 2s. 6d. per lb. at Uatto;l Golle<;e. His company were selling their butter in Sydney and Melbourne at 2s. per lb. The Government came along and took the butter from them at ls. 3d. per lb., Rent it to their customers in Sydney, and got th, differen~e for themselves. They did that more than once.

Hon. R. BEDFORD: Has not that been refunded? ,

Ho:-;. W. STEPHENS: ~a. it had not. Hon. R. BEDFORD : It has been refunded to

the suppliers. HoN. W. STEPHE:--JS: It had not been

refunded to the &uppliers. He would show them the balance-sheet of a butter factory in Minister's district, that never sent a pound of butter out of the place, with £4,000 to their credit, taken from his company's butter money. What wrong did they do? 'rhev made good butter, to send to London. It ;vas t~keu fron~ them and given to other ~r,mpanies. and they had a lot of trouble to get the Government to let their butter go to their consumers at 2s. 6d. per lb. in Mel­uc;urne, without taking it from them at 15. 3d.

Hon. R. BEDFORD: 'rhat was a question of the Government looking after the J,?eople o E Queensland first.

HoN. W. STEPHENS: It was not. They were pr<'pa red to sell the butter in Queens­land. They wanted to sell it. The Govern­ment took the butter from them and sold

·it to speculators who sent it to London and made money out of it. He was prepared to show them the figures. He would not trust this Government; they would take anything from anybody if they thought he was not a follower of theirs.

Hon. R BEDFORD : They are going to take the majority from you over there>.

HoN. W. STEPHENS: He hoped, then, thev would send along intelligent Queens­landers-not men who did not attend, ,and who were afraid to vote and always ran out of the Chamber every time the bell rang.

Meatworks Bill. [22 AuGusT.] llieatworks Bill. 1647

Hon. R. BEDFORD: I am " paired"; did you know that?

Hox. W. STEPHENS : He was very sorry for the " pair."

Hon. R. BEDFORD: He is sleeping-where most of you ought to b<>.

Que.stion-That the words proposed to be omitted (J.fr. Leahy's amendment) stand part of the clause-pu_t; and the Committee divi­ded:-

CONTENTS, 8. Hon. W. H. Demaine Hon. T. Nevitt

A. .r. J ones G. Puge-Hanify H. C .• Tones I. Perel I •. McDonald H. :Oumner

Telle1·: Hon. G. Page-Hanify.

X OT·CONTENTS, 11. Hon. A. A. Davey Hon. C. F. Marks

B. Fahey T . • T. O'Shea E. W. H. Fowles A. H. Parnell A. Gibson W. Stephens T. M. Hall H. Turner P. J. Leahy

Teller: Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.

PAIRS.

Contents-Mr. Bedford, Mr. ·courtice, Mr. Purnell, :Ur. Hiordan, and Mr. Uewelyn.

Not-Contents-:Mr. Miles, Mr. Nielson, Mr. Dunn, l\Ir. Brentnall, ancl :.\fr. Hawthorn.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment ngrecd to. [7.30 p.m.]

Clause 7, as amended, put and passed.

On clause 8-" l'aym ent by Government ~.;;tock"-

HoN. P. J. LEAHY moved the omission of subclauses (1) and (2), reading-

., (1.) At the option of the Governor in Council the amount of money represent­ing the value as ascertained under this Act of any property acquired under this Act may be paid to the late owner of such property by means of Government stock issued at par, and the late owner of such property shall be bound to recejve such Government stock to the amount aforesaid in full satisfaction of the obligation of the Government to pay suc!l value.

"(2.) Such Government stock shall be of buch description, shall have such cur­rency, and shall bear such interest not less th'ln four pounds per centum per annum and not exceeding five pounds per centnm per annum, as the Governor in Council by proclamation shall declare,"

with a view to inserting the following:-" The amount of any compensation as

determined under this Act shall be paid to the owner of such property in cash or, at the option of such owner, may be paid by the iE,ue to him at par of an <'quivalent amount of Government stock with a currency not exceeding ten years, and bearing interest at a rate not exceed­ing the rate of five pounds per centum per annwn, or at the option of such owner may be paid partly in one and partly in tho other of such modes of payment."

He did not think the Minister could seriously say there was anything unfair in that amend­ment.

The SECRETARY ]'OR MINES : Does that mean that meatworks must be paid for in cash?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: If the Government, under the cxiPting law, resumed a piece of land and the question of compensation went before the proper tribunal, the value of the land wns determined by that tribuna), and lh<> Government had to pay in cash. Under the clause as it stood, the Government would have the power to take a man's property ;ram him and to pay him in a depreciated paper currency, because that was what it would mean.

Hon. R. SmrNER: Would you call notes a depreciated paper currency?

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: No; but, if the Government compelled the owner of the pro­rerty to take Government debentures at par, it would be depreciated currency, because the debentures would not be worth their face value in the market.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : Debentures were good enough for the people who sold stations to the Government.

Hox. P. J. LEAHY: The Se:cct Com­mittee, of which he was a member last se>sion, obtained evidence to show that the Government gave too much for most, if not all, of those stations.

The SECRETARY FOR MIXES: That is not so. lion. R. BEDWRD: No one took any notice

of your Select Committee. It was only a waste of paper.

Hon. R. SCMNER: Isn't the war loan paper?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: That was an entirely different proposition. People were investing iu the war loan, r::ot because they could not get .m~re £or their money, but largely for patnot1c reasons. If the Government took meatworks from a man, they had no right tc pay him in depreciated currency. If the owner liked to take Government debentures, as the station-owners did, there was no more to be said, and the clause gave an owner the option of tal<ing Government stock if he chose. The owner shoul·d either be paid in hon<'st cash or the equivalent in Debentures, at his own option.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : Do you say that the country is not solvent, and that its deben­tures are depreciated?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: The hon. member should know something about Stock E·x­change operations. ·

Hon. R. BEDFORD : He does, unfortunately.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: He believed the hon. member had gained a good deal of experi­ence in connection with mining ventures, and at some expense to himself, and he should know that Government debentures were not worth their face value. The Com­monwealth war bonds were not worth par.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : British consols ar~ not worth par.

HoN. P, J LEA.HY : When people in­W'·ted the1r money -111 consols they took the rid< of a fall in value; but that was quite a different matter from taking a property from a man under compulsion and then pay­ing him in depreciated currency that was not worth face value.

Hon. R SUMNER: Debentures are free of taxation.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: That did not matter. at all. If the Government were going to

Hon. P. J. Leaky.]

lG4S NieatV'orls Bill. [COUNCIL.] 2lleatworks Bilt.

ta!m a man's property, he should get the fan value of that property, and the honest thing was to pay him in cash, or its equiva­lent, and not in a depreciated currency.

Hon. R. Suli!NER: Is th~re any depreciated currency?

HoN. P .. J. LEAHY: If the hon. member harl. invested £1,000 in Queensland Govern­m€nt debentures at 3,!- per cent. a few years ago, he would find that in the open mark<;t at the present time they were only worth about 70 per cent. of what he paid for them. If the Government were to issue debentures befLring 4 per cent. interest at the present time, that would be a depreciated currency, because the debentures would not realise their face value in the market. The Com­n,onwea!th Government had just floated a loan of £4,500,000 on the London market for the State~, and they had to pay nearly 6 per cent. for the money.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The amendment was not acceptable to the Go· vermnent, although he admitted it was some­what consequential on the Hon. 1\:Ir. Fowles's a:rtendment which had been carded pre­v:ous]y. Th.;: way the Hon. Mr. Fowles's a!1lendments and the Hon. Mr. Leahy's amendments fitted into one another showed that therA must have been a meeting of the party opposite, or that the two hon. mem­bers had collaborated in the preparation- of the amendment;;.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: Both working on ju~L lines.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: They will fit in just as well in other Bills.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It waE evidence that the party opposite had held caucus meetings, otherwise the amendment' would not have fitted in so well.

Hon. P .• J. LEAHY: It is not evidence of anything of the kind. The Hon. Mr. Fowlerl and myself may or may not have put our heads togethar, but, even if we did it does not follow that there has been any ~eetings of hon. members on this side.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Bill, as framed, provided for paying for meatworks that might be taken over by the Government with Government debentures. H0 was we]] aware that hon. members opp-o­site had amended the Bi]] in such a way that the amendment now under discussion had become absolutely necessary from their point of view in order to make the clausA uniform with their other amendments. There waB not n;uch use in dividing on th<J amend­ment., seemg those c;ther amendments had bePn carried, but he wished to say that the Government were opposed to the amend­ment, as they were opposed to the amend­ment• previously carried. The owners of many properties purchased by the Govern­ment were quite willing to accept Govern­ment debentures.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: But they add to the purchasing price in that case, like some of the station-owners.

Hon. T .. J O'SHEA: Thos(l were cases of a bargain, and it is a man's contract then.

Hon. P. ,J. LEAHY: This is not a bargain. It is a case of compulsory acquisition by the Government.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He was v.ware that the amendment would be carried,

Lllnn. P. J.Leahy.

and he would offer no further objection but wonld protest against the amendment. '

Amendment agreed to. HoN. P. J. LEAHY moved the omission

on line 16, of the words "the value of pro: paty acquired," with a view to inserting the wo~ds "compensation payable." That eJw m1ght b() taken as a consequential amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY moved the omission, en line 23, of the words " the value of pro­pPrty acquired," with a view to inserting the worcls " any compensation payable." That was also a consequential amendment.

Amendment agTeed to. Clause 8, as amended, put and passed. On clause 9-" Po1cer to carry on busi-

ness''-

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES moyed the in­sertion, after the word " may" on line 30, of the words " during the continuance of the vvar."

Amendment agreed to. HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES moved, as a

con8equcntial amend1nent, the insertion, after the wm'd "meatworks" on line 32. of the words "the sole right to use which. during the continuance of the war, has been.··

Amendment agreed to. Clat1se, as amended, put and passed. HoN. A. H. PARNELL moved the inser-

tion of the following new clause to follow clause 9:-

" For the purp(}se of such business, the Uovernor in Council may from time to time by proclamation declare that any >tock is appropriated to His Majesty. Forthwith on the publication of anv such procla,uation such stock shall heconie and remain the absolute propcrtv of His ::\laj csty, freed from any "mortgage, charge, lien, or other encumbrance thereon whatsoever; and the late owner and all his agents, managers, attorneys, s0rvants, and workmen shall, withotlt any delay, hindrance, ob-truction, claim, or demand what<ot~ver, give and deliver peaceful possession of such stock to His Majc•sty, either forthwith or at such tinw or times as the proclamation declares, and at the place or places of delivery in the proclamation mentioned; :>nd for such purpose the owner and all persons aforesaid shall obev all the orders and directions in the proclamation set forth. The owner of such stock shall be entitled to be paid forthwith on such appropriation, in cash, the market value of such stock, as determined by a board of control to be appointed by the Governor in Council before the issue of any ··uch proclamation. Such board shall consist of three members; one member of such board shall be nominated bv the Governor in Council, one member by thA 'Cnited Pastoralists and Grazing Farmers' Association of Queensland and the Queensland Grazing Farmers and Settlers' Association, and one member bv the owners of meatworks carrying on" busi­ness in Queensland. The decision of a majority of the members of such board as to the market value of any stock shall be final and conclusive on all parties."

He had looked carefully through the amend-

Jieatworlcs Bill. [22 AUGUST.] Meatworks Bill. 1649

ment, which the Hon. Mr. Whittingham ha<! asked him to take up, and it seemed to be a fair and reasonable amendment.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : One member of the board has to be appointed by the United Pastoralists and Grazing Farmers' Associa­tion of Queensland and the Queensland Graz­ing Farmers and Settlers' Association, and one by the owners of the meatworks.

HoN. A. H. PARNELL: Yes; but, on the other hand, the Government had the right of appointing one member.

Hon. R. BEDFORD : One to two. HoN. A. H. PARNELL: Surely, when

they made the appointments, they would see that the gentlemen appointed were likely to give a fair and impartial deal. The amendment had been circulated for some time. If the lea·der of the Government had thought fit, he could have brought forward a further amendment. He himself had never objected, when a Bill was before the Council, to give the right of appeal. That would be fair; but it would not apply in this case, because, if the Government had the right to appoint the third man, they would appoint a man who was likely to give them justice. If there was any objection to the amend­ment, he would like to hear what the leader of the Government had to say.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He was opposed to the amendment, for two very good reasons. First, because the Government, under the Meat Supply for Imperial Uses Act of 1914, had power to purchase cattle. They had all the power that was required for the purpose, and therefore this amendment was not at all necessarv in that direction. Section 6 of that Act read-

" It is hereby declared that all stock and meat in any place in Queensland are and have become and shall remain sub­ject to this Act and shall be held for the purposes of and shall be kept for the disposal of His Majesty's Imperial Government in aid of the supplies for His Majesty's armies in the present war."

Hon. W. STEPHENS: Woul<l that cover local butchers' shops?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It was not required to cover local butchers' shops. The section he had quoted showed that this amendment was not required for the purpose of appropriating cattle; neither was it requisite 'under that Act to appoint a board, especially one constituted in the way sug­gested by the amendment.

Hon. E. W. H. FOWLES: A very expert boa1·d.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You could not have a better board than that.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It was not neCP9sary. Section 8 of the Act he had referred to read-

" 'rhe Governor in Council shall ap­point such and so many persons as he thinb proper to be 1t Board of Control for the purposes of this Act."

\\'here was the necessity for the amendment? Hon. P. J. LEAHY: This is a different Bill

altogether, and you want the machinery for getting cattle for the meatworks.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: His other objection to· the amendment was in regard to the words. " The owner of ouch stock shall be entitled to be paid forthwith on such appropriation, in cash!' Hon.

1918-5 I

gentlemen knew that in a very large deal, even by the Government, payment by cash wc.uld be very inconvenient, and tha:t pay­ment by debentures was acceptable to the majority of people.

Hon. A. H. PARNELL: Xot in all cases.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They were quite well aware that this amendment was simply moved to kill the Bill.

Hon. A. H. PARNELL: If vou commandeer ~he stock, I think you should pay for them m cash.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Then it was not commandeering. If they appro­pri~ted ea ttle they paid for them in a way whiCh would suit the parties. Did the hon. gentleman know of any instance where the Government had not paid?

Hon. A. H. PARNELL: 'ral{fe the Moora­berrie case.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That case was sub judice and now pending before the Privy Council, and it would be highly 1mproper to refer to it. They would pro­bably hear 111,ore about it in the future. The buard proposed in the amendment was not necessary. It was necessary to give the Government power to appropriate stock under this Bill, because they had already got the power under the Meat Supply for Imperial Uses Act of 1914, and the Council gave the Governnwnt that power.

Hon. P. J. LEABY: That was at the com­mencement of the war.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The war was still raging, and the urgency of the measure was just as keen to-day. If the other Act was passed when the war first broke out. there was more necessitv for drastic legislation now, when war had" been r'-~.gin-.~ for three O!r fdur year~/. There seemed to be a tendency on the part of the Committee not to give the Government, eYcn during !he period of the war, the necessary power which they required. Clause 2 of the Bill proved that it was a war measure, because it discontinued irrnnediately the war was over. They did not want to appropri'Lte meatworks in times of peace unless it was neces,,ary. But if the works failed to supply the Government-and e•pecially the Imperial Government-with !ho meat which was required for the men who were fighting at the front, and for their dependents, at a reasonable price, they had a right to exercise that power.

Hon. A. H. PARNELL: Can you point out any case in the last four yearg in which you have had to commandeer cattle? Th~ pastoralistg have supplied you with all the meat you wanted.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Because the Government to-day had the necessarv power; ot)lerwise, Queensland would have been in the same position as New South Wales and Victoria, where the people were suffering from a meat famine.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: The Meat Supply for Imperial Uses Act was passed in the time of the Denham Government in 1914, before you carrie in.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It was passed for. war purposes, during the period of the war. That was all the more reason why hon. members should accept the Bill.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: I would not entrust anv Government with the powers you are asking in this Bill.

Hon . .A. J. Jones.]

1650 M eatworlcs Bill. [COUNCIL.] }\Jeatworks Bill.

The f:\ECRETARY FOR 1IINES: The hon. geutkman was quite wiliing to give the Denham Government the powers.

Hon. P. J. LK\HY: INe never gave them powers equal to those asked for in this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They should have grellter powers during war than during peace.

Hon. P. · J. LEAHY: They pa,~ed that Act in 1914, and it was really a war measure, hut this is not.

The SECRETARY FOR :.vll".JES: He would adrr,it that, if they had had a strong National Government in power, the supply of meat to the Australian troops, and at a r<:'asonable pricP to the people of Au'>tralia, rnight be a national quC'stion.

Hon. P. J. LnHY: vVhy don't you use your powers?

The SECRETARY FOR MIN"ES: The hon. gentleman, by way of interjection, stded that the Government had paid greater price3 for stations than they could hav<~ purchased them.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: vVe had evidence to that dfect.

The SECRET"\RY FOR MINES: \Vhat r:,ane GoY{'rninC'nt or individual \vould na"T £20,000 or £30.000 more for a station than they < ·)u\d have purchased it at?

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Didn't you pay for Mount Hntton when you were 3,000 cattle short?

The SECR!i:TARY FOR MINES: There was a profit on Mount Hutton.

Hon. P .. J. LEAHY: There is not; there is a loss on Mount Hutton; you improperly anded £14,000 to the value of the lease.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That wn' not correct. There was a profit of some­thing Jik, £26,000 or £30,000 on the Mount Hutton deaL It was nothing if there were 2,000 or 3,000 cattle short on a big station, but hon. gPntlemen should· take into con­Eidoration the price paid for the station and the value of the stock.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: The lease was nearly run out; it had only a year or two to run.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The purchase of State stations had been under nisemsion in i'UCh a way that the Govern­ment cam() out clear in the matter, while other people did not. When an investiga­timo on the matter was made, it was proved that the transaction was absolutely clean and profitable to the Government and to the people. However, he hoped the mover of the amendment would not insist upon it, bui would allow the Bill to go back to the AsB0mbly in a decent form. He was sure that. its parents would not recognise it with the shPaf oE amendments which had been imerted ;n rt. This was a Meatworks Bt\1, and it had been treated on the same lines as meat cut up in a butcher's shop.

HoN. A. H. P ARNELL: The amendment had been handed to him by the Hon. Mr. Whittingham, and it was his duty to see thai. it went througli, and he was going to preer it to a division. When fat cattle were {lnt up for sale they were paid for in cash. The Government could not go out to the sal<'vards and bu;v cattle and pay for them wit1: debentures. Then, why should the GovPrnment have the right to commandeer cattle and pay for them in any way they liked?

Won. A. J. Jonu.

Hon. I. PEREL : You believe in comman­·dqcring people, but you do not believe in cornmandeering cattle, or in giving cheap meat to the wives and children of men who are fighting at the front.

HoN. A. H. P ARNELL: There was plenty of meat in Queensland for everybody, and tlwre was no nc<'d to commandeer it. The r.mendment was fair and just, and he hoped it would be accepted by the Committee.

Question-That the new clause proposed to by inserted I.J£1·. Parndl' s amendment) be so inserted-put; and the 0ommittee divided :-

CoNTENTS, 11. Hon. A. A. Davey Hon. 0. F. :;rarks

B. Fahey T .• r. O't'hca :E. W. H. Fowles A. H. Parnell A. Gibson W. f'tephens T. }f. Hall H. Turner I' .• r. Leahy

Teller: Hon. T. :\1. Hall.

K OT-OONTENTS, 8. Hon. W. H. Demaine Hon. T. Kevitt

A .. T. .Tones G. Page·Hanify H. C .• Tones I. Perel L. McDonald R. Sumner

Teller: Hon. T. Kevitt.

PAIRS.

Contents-:Jir. Miles, 2-Ir. ~ielson, Mr. Dunn, Jrir. Bn•ntnall, ancl llr. Hawthorn.

::'\ot-Oontents-)fr. Bedford, 1Ir. Oourtice, :;rr. Purnell, }lr. Hiorclan, and ::\fr. Llewelyn.

Re>olved in the affirmative, On clause 10-" Prohibited contracts,

etc.')-

Hox. E. W. H. FO\VLES moved that the ,.-ord "property," on line 48, be omitted, with a view to inserting the word "rights," which wonld be more in harmony with the provisions of the BilL

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The amendment meant a lot, although it was oniy the flltcration of one word,· but he quite recognised that, other amendments having been carried, hon. members opposite would carry this one.

Hon. E. \V. H. FowLES: " Rights" is a better and wider word the,n "property."

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: But it did not inolnde property.

l-Ion. P. J. LE~HY: You only want to use it.

The SECRF~TARY FOR MINES: How much power werP. hon. gentlemen giving the Gm•Prnment under the Bill? The hon. gen­tleman who moved the amendment moved it a~ if there was ·nothing in it, but hon. memhers on that side recognised that it was loaded.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Like a lot of Bills the t come to u;;,

· The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They were loaded with good intentions.

Amendment agre<;:d to. Clause, as amended, put and passed. On clause 11-" X o rem ecly except for

t•a/uc of propt rty"-

Hox. P. ,T. LEAHY moved, as a conse­quedial o,men<lment, that the words "valuf) a3 a 'Certained under this Act of any 'pro­perty," on lines 30 and 31, be omitted, with the view of ;nserting the words " amount of compensation as determined under this Act

Ji eatworkg Bill. [22 AuGusT.] 51 f ·tworks Bill. 1651

-cn· the mark••t value as ascertained under this Act of any 'tcck."

Amendment agreed to." c:a.use, as amended, put and passed.

On clame 12-" Gcne'l'al paU'rrs"-

HON. E. W. H. FOWLES: The phraseo· logy in this clause looked like an after­dinner speech when there ha·d been no ·d!f,ner. \V hat »as the meaning of the phrase " as will in his judgment be calcu­lu , 0 d to safc;suard the requirements ":nd wt•llbeing of the people"? It sounded hke a couple of platforms out of the "red bouk." T• was a bit wordy.

Hon. G. PAGE-HANIFY: You do not believe in , cfcguarding the wellbeing of the people.

HoN. K \V. H. FOWI.ES: It would be improvcd by cutting it out dbg,ther. Why rwt suv, "as ··• ill give full effect to the p~o­visions of th:., Act," and be done With It? It so id, "in his judgment." Whooe judg­HH_)n+"?

The SE( •'.ET.\RY FOR lVfiNES: The Governor iu Cumwil. Surely you do not ridicule him.

HoN. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: It might be hctt(•r to cut out the whole clause.

Hon. W. II. DE}IAINE: Delete the clause.

HoN. E. W. II. FO\VLES : IIe would acrept thP Fl~Jgc:;tion of hon. rne-n1bers s_up­porting the Govcrmnent and Yote agamst the dr:u~e.

Clan.'e put and "''gatiYed. On dame 13-" Publication and effect of

'prorl m'~tionn-

Hox. E. W. II. FOWLE.S: He did not think the final words would be acoepted by Government ,.upporters, who liked to chal­lenge evf'rything. It said: "~Every pr?­damation . . . shall not be eha.llengod 111

any proceedings ,vhatsoever." _That was not Driti>h juotico. If a proclamatiOn had some­thing wrong \rith it, it ought to be challenged and UlJ'Ot. He moved the omission of the following words on lines 45 and 46:-

" and -,hall not be challenged in any procef'dings whatsoever."

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He was afnid hon. gentlemen opposite were not taking the Bill very serionsly. Evidence of that lav in the fact that, becall!'e -omebody Dn that side intcrj<'cted: "Why not cut out the whole of clause 12 ?" it was immediately done.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Before that remark was made I suggested it to the Hon. Mr. Fowlcs; a;1d I would have done it if he had not.

The SECRETARY FOR :\IINES: How­ever, the Bill was going back to another place, where the Government, fortunately, had a majoritv, and would come back to that Chamber ,\,ith clause 12 inserted, giving the GoYernment general powers under the Dill. There was nothing wrong with the clause. No hon. gentleman opposite gave one solid argument against the clause. To prove that hon. g-entlemen were not sincere regarding the Bill, they just accepted an interjection and cut out the clause when there was no intention on the part of mem­bers opposite to do so. The two hon. gentle­men who v ere fighting the Bill came to a hasty arrangement to cut out the chuse alto­gether, without any party meeting or any

due co!isideration of the clause. That proved how the poop\·e cf the countrr were being lcgi,Jatcd for. 'I'he Hon. Mr. Fmdes had n1ovcd an an1enchncnt, and bonlC\vhat ridi­culed the Governor in Council. 'The amend­ment might hase been a good one and worthy of con,ideration, but they did not haYo an oppcrtunity of considering it.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You could have talked on it had you wished.

The SECRETARY FOR :\fiNES: He was hmdlv aware that the whole clause was deleted. ,

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: \Yake up!

Th. SECRETARY FOR :\IIXES: He was thcroughl:r awake. One needed to be in that Chamber, he admitted.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: \Ve are not "old fos­sils," acter all.

Th, SECRETARY FOR }:IH\ES: He would pay them the compliment that the lc:.dcr of the Government did not need to be asleep wh0n a Bill was in Committee. He hoped the amendment moved n0w would not be carried.

Hm;. P. J. LEAHY: Ho rose first for the purposo of assuring the J:linister that, eyen jf the ~uggoo;;tion h~td not b\"~11 made from the other side to omit the clause, it wa· hi. int0ntion to endenv<·Ur to have it < mitted. He had mgge,bd to the Hon. J'vli·. Fo\.lc, thnt thcv should delete the whole cL.n:;p long before ~any hon. gcntlcn1an on the <ther sid<' had spoken.

Hon. E. \V. H. FO\YLES: Ten minutes a:;-o.

Uox. P. J. LEAHY: He was just as serious on that Bill as he had been on any Dill. Ile did not think the amendment of t!Y Hon. Ilfr. Fowlc' ,,, cnt far enough. The powers, even with tho"e lines 'truck out, 1•:ere very widP. It said-

" EYery proclamation made or pur­porting to he made under this Act shall be published in the 'Gazette,' and forth­with upon such publication shall be read a,; one with this Act, and construed as being of equal validity."

He saw no difference between that and the power vdiich the Government tried to take to itself in most cases with regard to regula­tions. In other Bills, when they had the same thing put in different words, their invariable practire had been to insist upon the regulations being laid on the table of th(" House, and to disallo\\' them if they thought fit.

_Hon. R. su~IKER: \\'hat right ha Ye you to disallow them ?

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: They lvd the right which the law gave them to .di,allow them. Could they have any higher right than that? Even ldth thc"-o word~ kft out, it would ~;c pm,ible for the Goyernor in Council-which of course, they knew, meant the JYiinistry of the day-it micrht e,·en mean only three or four Ministers-->nculd haYe the nower of publishing cerhin notil"C'" in the "·Gazette,'' and the-y would haY'' io be constru<'d as of equal v<tlidity with the Act. If the Hon. :VIr Fowlcs did not desire to omit the whole clau,e, and were satisfied with his amend­ment, he did not wish to prL ,, the maft..or; but he thought it 1?:.:t:. a quest-ion for vc1'J SBrious consideration \Vhothcr they shoulJ n·A· dc>lete the whole clau;;Eo

lion. P. J. Leahy.!

1652 )Ji[eatworks Bill. [COUNCIL.] Meatworks Bill.

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA: He would like to ask the Minister what was the meaning of clause 13. He confe,s2d he did not know anything about it

Hon. P. J LEAHY: Could he bring in a proclamation to repeeJ a section of au Act or alter it?

HoN. T. J. O'SHEA: It seel]led to loint that under clause 13, as priPted, the Gover­nor in Council could publisf. any proclama­tion in the "Gazette" and mak<• it law.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: 'I'hat is my objection to it.

Ho!i". T. J. O'SHEA: \Yhat was more, there was a tail on it, which read: "c.nd shall rtot be challcngu1 in ai>:v proceedin::;s whatsoeYer. ''

Hon. P. J. LKmY: And the Hon :11r. Fowlcs is onlv cutting off the tail and leaving the dog.

Hox. T J. O'SHRA: He· thought the whole rhing \Vas pernicious:, usele~s. and un­n<>c8ssary. He would vote against the clause.

HoN. I'. J. LEAHY: He would suggest to the Hon. Mr. Fowles that he delete the whole clause. He was net alwavs ·so moderate in his dema.nds. He rather· surprised him on this occasion by his moderation.

HoN. E. W. H. FO\VLES: He ha·d moved that the tail of the clause be cut off for the simple rea son that they did not wish to mak8 too drastic amendments in the Bill. There was a chance of its rassing and be­coming law. If it were paseed in the form in which it was amended by that Chambee, it would be a very umful measure. He di<l not think it wo,;ld l,c ver:; applicable to Queensland, because •hey had no instance of any pastoralist of meatworks ever refusing to do tloeir ·duty loyally with regal'd to tJ,i, war.

Hon. R. Sm!KER: You do not read· the daily papers, or you would not say that.

Ho'". E:. W. H. FOWLES: He did not say that was eo in Australia. He was not referring to Victoria.

Hon. R. SF>INER: Simply because of tht' >::ction the Queensland Government hqv•J taken.

Hox. E. \Y. H. FOWLES: As a matter of fact, it was not due at all to the action this Government took. :Nir. Denham, the former Premior, made an agreement with the pa., toraliots, who entere.l into the agreerner1t quite freely.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: And the Imperial Go­Y0rnment have never asked this Government to take the moatworks over since that day.

Hox. E. W. H. FOWLES: There had not been a complaint by the Imperial Govcra­ment against either the meat or the price up to the present time.

Hon. T. ,T. O'SHEA: Neither the pas­toralists nor the moat men ever were asked for anything they did not concede.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The only reason wh,v they might hope to keep half that clause for the Government was that the7 would rake it for granted it was a war Jncasur•-'. ff they hac' a 'var measure, and a thoron:_ 'oly frank and open and fe'arlessiy loyal U;:on mment v·orking right up to the hilt for t'W'l'Y clause of that as a war

[Hon. 1'. J. O'Shea.

measure, that Government ought to be clothed: ~ith pler.ary powers, B.nd they ought to s<ty,

Yes, :yo" can take the fullest power ny proclamation."

Hon. G. PAGE-HAKIFY: \Vhy not cut out the whole clause? . Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Do you rt•ally think it 1s a war mea£ure?

HoN. E. W. H. l<'OWLES: He t,)ok it for granted that it was a war mcasare.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: I don't. Hon. 'I'. J. O'SHEA: I don't, either. HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Ho di<i not

think it was a war measure, but. as the G_ovcrnment declared that it was, he was g1ving them the credit of believing them on

t.hat occasion. It w.:ts a strong­[8.30 p.m.J power to pla('e in the hands of

the Government, and he would' be quite willin.s to vote against the whole clause. Ho~. R. SUJ\f::'\fEH: He quite believed

the hon. member would be r;repare<l to vote· the whola Bill out. He thought the inten­tion c£ hon. members on the other side was to kill th" Bill, and it would be more honest to cast the Bill out 011 the second reading than to destroy it in C<)mmittee. The powers now ask<ed for were grant<cd to the Government in the Sugar Acquis:tion Act. Under the War Precautions Act. the Federal Governmeni· had recentlv fixed the price of meat. but Sydnev and Melbourne were left without beef. •

Hon. E. vV. H. FowLES: I was refC'rring to Queensland. This is State '.egi,lation.

HoN. R. SUMNER: The re.t.'on for the situation in the· South was that the Federal Government had not sufficient po" er to do· what they intended to do, and they were now proposing to get power to compel the· owners of stock to supply the Southern markets at the price fixed.· It was a good price. but the owners of stock sai·d they would not h~tve anv interference. The· Federal Government held the view that it was just as much a war measure to supply the civilian population in Amtr«lia with meBt at a reasonable price as it wa• to supply meat to the troops at the front. They hacl read in the daily PrE>ss rerently that the Imperiel Government were spending £60,000,000 per <tnnum in supplying the­neople in Great Britain w1t.h che.:tp brea<l, oecausc they recognised that it was as im­portant to supply the civilian population with food as it was to supply thP army in the field.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: The British Govern­mPnt are more equitable than th8 Queens­land Government in that case. 'fhev pay for what they g-ive the. 11ublic: tlw Queens­land Government "teal it. (Laughter.)

HoN. R. S'C1\f::-.l'ER: They got it back again; it was all the same in the end.

Hon. T .• T. O'SHEA: You see what the British nation is doing in connection with the war.

HoN. R. SUMNER: The British nation was paying 33 per cent. of the hug<' war <'xpenditure out o< revenue. In Australia they were paving for everything out o~ loan, hut they would havp to pay for it m the future.

Hon. T J. O'SHEA: Australia has dcU1<' ali that it has been asked to do ·clp to the present.

lvleatworks Bill. [22 AUGUST.] Meatworks Lill. 1653

HoN. R. SU~1NER: Hon. members on the other si.de had come there determined to ·destroy the Bill. It would be much more .honest for hon. members to have <'ast it out .on the second reading instead of wutila'ing it as they were now doing.

HoN. I. PEREL: They had heard a lot about what a splendid, fair GoYcrnment the Federal Government were. He would just draw attentio!l to th0- fact that, while the Queensland Governm<•nt were charged with commandeering meat, nothing h!id been said about the ucti,m of the FedPral Government in commandeering rabbit skins and pa-ying the trappers one-half of what the'" realised from the Eale of those skins and collaring the rest.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You did the same with butter.

HoN. T. NEVITT: Ho had frequently said during this session that the Opposition in this Chumber--

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: You have no right to spefik of an Oj,position here.

HoN. 'l'. Nl~VITT: If ever there was an {)pposition in any Parliament in the world, it was to bo found in that Chamber at the present time. He was sorry he could not remember the concluding· remarks nf the Hun ::\1r. O't'lwa in speaking on the amend­ment, but be w;m]d ask why th'l ban. mem­ber did not express the same opinion two years ago -wheu tbe Sugar Acquisition Act was passed f

Hon. 'I' ,J, O'SHEA: A nefarious law.

Ho;;r. 1'. :'\J•:VITT: Practicallv the same d"use wai Lo be found in that :<\.d, but hfl h~d no n•c·ol'Pct;on of the hon memlwr, or .any <,ther hon. m<>mbr>r, taking exception t0 it. Sccticn 13 oi the Sugar Acquisitior, .\et a·ead-

" (1) The Governor in Council may from time to time make and publish in th8 'Gazette' all such proclamationo as ]J,, thinks fit for giving fn!l effect to this Act, an;l n:uy in anv .m eh proclamation in;posc '1 p< nt.l~y not exceecing £100 fer any contraventiOn thereof.

" (2) Every proclamation made under this Act shall be read as one with this Act and construed a.s being of equal vali<lity, and shall be judicially noticed."

Hon. E. W. H. FoWLES : That is <lifferent to this. This says, "and shall not be chal­lenge·d in UHY ;v oc2e{ling-s 1vhatsoever."

HoN. T. NEVIT'r: It wfis practically the .,ame as the clause under discussion, and no •.'xcrpt;on had 1-ccn taken to it hy hvn. members. That only showed that the Opposition wanted to cripple and hobble the Government. on eYery opportunity.

Hon. T. J. O'SIIEA: The GoYernment stole ht!iocks updcr tLut Act.

HoN. P. ,J. LEAHY: If what the Hon. ~h·. NeYitt had said were correct it would be no argument against their opposition to tlHt clause. It might have been that the swt.ion in the Sugar Acquisition Act, which the hem. member quotP,d, had gone through without being noticed. He (Mr. Leahy) might have been absent. (Laughter.) He ha.l no recollection of it, but he did remem­ber another section in the same Act which tho Conncil foolishly passed that gave the GoYcrnor in Council power to extend the DpeJ·ation of the Act to other things besides

sugar. No cine even suggested at the time the Bill was under discussion that the Go­vernment would ever acquire cattle under it. Hon. members were a little bit wiser now tho,n thoy wEre when they passed that A~t, and they knew more about the actions of the Government and how they might e.pply such wide provisions. Further, the sugar business was only a small thing com­pared to this. The proclamations issu'l,d Ullcier the Bill might deal with a whole lot of thing'l. With regard to the remarks made about cheap meat, and acquiring meat, the Gonrnment had full power at the present tiP18 to commandeer cattle even if that Bill ncvAr became law. They could comman­deer cattle and bring them down to the m11rket. 'l'hey could sell them to the butchers, who would be only too willing to acquire them without their being treated at the meatworks. All the professed indig­nation about cheap meat had nothing in it, a.s the Government could acquire cattle without the Bill.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : With the amendments that were proposed in the Bill, th0 clause would be exactly the same as the section which the Hon. Mr. Nevitt had quoted from the Sugar Acquisition Act. He might point out that, since they had struck out clause 12, which gave the Government po\\ er to make proclamations, the omission of the clause under discussion was really consequential.

Hon. T. NEVITT: I say you are out to i:oLble the Government on every oppor­tunity.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Why should t.he Government want to make proclamations at all?

HoN. G. PAGE-HANIFY: The fact of the matter s(lemed to be exactly what had been saict by <lVery hon. member on his side. The Opposition, who claimed that there was no Opposition, had laid themselves out, in a plausible sort of way, to destroy the legis­lation that came from the other ChambP,r.

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: It is not legislation when it comes here.

HoN. G. PAGE-HANIFY: They could claim that they did not reject a Bill but only amended it, but they knew that, when it ,,·,mt back to the other Chamber, it would bt) absolutely unacceptable. It did not matter very much whether the amendments were carried or not, because the Bill would c~rtainly be returned by the Assembly, if it w:1s not set a~.ide as "lost." Just as in the previous session, hon. members would play th0 same little game with other Bills when they camP. along, and, when the time for clo~ing the session arrived, very little harm would be accomplished from the point of view of the Opposition, and the Labour Go­vernment would have put very little indeed on the statute-book, and so hon. members opposite would have scored. He compli­mentPd hon. members on the clever and plausible way in which. they played the gam<', but it wol!ld certamly be mucl'! more st.r,tightforward 1f they passed out BJ!ls on thdr second reading and had the courage to take the responsibility of their actions.

Hon. •r, M. HALL: We happen to know what your game is.

HoN. G. PAGE-HANIFY: The game of the Labour party was to try to put on the shtute-book laws which they believP,d would be good for the people of Queensland. The

Hon. G. Page-Hanify.]

1654 JJ eatovorks Bill. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment.

llil), on the face of it, showed that it was int0ndcd to serve the public interest. Hon. mPmbers had said time a.fter time that Qnrensland wacc not affected by the war, end that they had nothing to do with the war ; but, liBtening to those hon. mQmbers !h~t evening, one might fancy that what th~y were doing was going to win the war. It was utter nonsense to say that it was not as nmch the duty of the Government to look

. aft0r the foodstuffs of the dependents of scldiers who were left in the country as it v. aF to provide foodstuffs for the soldiers at the front. What wa'; the use of the hypo­crJtical talk they had heard from the other side? One would fancy that as soon as the -_, ,,. endPd all the trouble would be over. He inte-rjected while the Hon. Mr. Fowles w~ts speaking, " Why cut out clause 13 ?" He now usked the hon. member, "Why not cut out th8 whole Bill and be done with it?"

Hon. E. \Y. H. FoWLES: That might be an irnprovement.

HoN. G. PAGE-HANIFY: It would be just as much use as passing the Bill with · ail the umendni.ents that were being put in, kn·nving th~tt the Bill had not the slightest chctnce of being put on the stutute-book in that form.

HoN. A. A. DAVEY: The Hon. Mr. Page·Hanify, in his usual superior style and w'fl1 his litde experience, .had once more got up to lecture hon. members in that saintly manner of his. (Laughter.) He rradP. the stntement that hon. members were hypocritic1l in :>m"nding thP Bill. The hon. m'lmber ought to withdraw that state­ment.. It had been rept>atedly stated by hon. mcrnbPrs en the other side that the busi­nbs of that Chumber was to pass everything that came to it from the Assembly. They W<Jre told thnt, when the.v attempted to am<md rhe Bill, they were depriving the Gwernment of the opportunity of giving cheap food to the poor. stricken people of Queen land. HP wonld lik0 to know if hon. members oppc,site thought they were more c ,,,s},tent in hking up the attitude they did, beean,e, a.pparently, the,· considert>d it their duty to support every mortal thing that was inclnded in Government Bills.

'Lht> SECRE.rARY FOR MINES: We have accepkd ·'''Ye"al amendments in this Bill.

Ho:-r. A. A. DA VEY: 'The hon. gentleman hrtd accepted ,evcral amendment.": premm­ably I ''en use h•· had •tated several times that hr> ha·i to acc.?pt them because the majority were· aguinst hirr:. He !Mr. Davey) · <Jnly wanted to noint ont the unfaime-<e, and real!~· the m!truth, of the statement of hon. members on the other side, that amendment; were mod~ simp!v ''·ith tlw object of hinder­ing. th~ Gov,)rlirnont carryi1ig LenevolPnt leg·1slatwn. \Vere they to believe that the Go>ernmcnt were infallible becuu•e hon. memberF oppcsite wue prepared to support ev~rything that canw from the other Chamber? If the r'ouncil '"a-· a partv I-f~nisP., it v:as not n1ad0 so by men1bcrs on thn" s;rL: hnt b~~ hnn. n1e-mbers oppo,;;;ite-, a large number of whom were appointed for pure 1v pent:,- rea'ons. and were pledged to aboli'h 11w Council if thev could.

Hon. T. XEVTTT: You w.ere put here for a political pUl'JlOFc•,

HoN .• \. A. DA VE'Y : He presumPd he wa.' put there llecauee it was considered bv cer­tain peo;Jle that his judgment would 'be of some adve.nhgu to the countr,·. He agreed with other hon. members that the whole

[Hon. G. Page-Hanify.

cl a us.p -.. !wuld be ncgati ved, because he did not think that tho power was a reasonable or a proper one to g·ive the Government. Power to alter the Dill altogether by pro­clamation \Yas inadvj:-;ahle.

Am.endment (Jir. Fozrles's) agreed to.

Que.tion--That the dame, as amended, stand part of the Bill-put; and tho Com­mittcC' divided:-

CoNTENTS, 8. Hon. tV. H. Demaine Hon. T. Sovitt

A . • T . • Tones G. Puge-Hanify H. C .. Tones I. J>erel I,. McDonald R. Sumn<':r

Teller: Hon. W. H. Demainc.

NoT·CoNTENTS, 11. Hon. A. A. Davey Hon. 0. F. Marks

B. Fahey T .• T. O'Shea E. W. H. Fowles A. H. Parnel! A. Gibson W. Htephens T. M. Hall H. Turner P. J. Leahy

Teller: Hon. T. J. O'Shea.

PAIRS.

Contents-Mr. Bedford, Mr. Oourtice, Mr. Purnell, Mr. Riordan, and Mr. Llewelyn.

Not·ContPnts-Mr. Miles, Mr. Nielson, Mr. Dunn, ~Ir. Brentna!l, and Mr. Hawthorn.

ReoolYed in the negative. Clause 14 -"Power to rxtrnd operation of

A.ct"-put and negatived. 'l'he SECRETARY FOR MINES moved­

That the Chairmun -do now leave the chair, report progresil, and a"k leave to sit ugain.

Hon. K W. H. FowLES: We could finish th<' Bill in ten minutes.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: He was under the impre"ion that the Council might b<· in a different frame of mind by Tuesday, so that they would be likely to get some amendments then; they were not likely to rret them now.

Question put and passed. The Council resumed. The CHAIRMAN re­

ported prog-re'.,;, and the Committee obtained lcctve to sit again on 'Tuesday next.

ADJOURNMEXT. The SECRETARY FOR ~IIXES: I beg

tn mov<,-That the Council do now adjourn. The f;,·,t l.Ju>inc,; on Tuesday next will be the third reading of the Wages Dill, the further consideration of the Meatworks Bill in Committee, and the consideration in Cam· mittee of the Legislative Assembly's mes­sage of 18th July on the Land Tax Act Amendment Bill, to be followed by the second reading of the Land Act Amendment Bill (No. 3).

Hox. E. W. H. FO\YLES: I understand that the Dingo and Marsupial .Destruction Bill js to bo considered in Committee on 'I'uhdav. This is the Order of the Day, No. 1. for Tuesday, set down already. Does the :\Iinister intend to take that Bill on Tuesday or not-is it a matter of getting the amend­ments circulated?

The SECRETARY FOR MIXES: I think it will meet the convenience of hon. members to take it on \Vedncsday or Thursday, as it will give more time for the preparation and circulation of amendments.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : All right. Questjon put and passed. The Council adjourned at four minutes to

9 o'clock p.m.